# Bedroom Tax - Who is Affected?



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

As there seems to be little info on here, thought it would be worth doing a thread informing people how it affects them and the sort of people who are going to be affected by this.  (For those who insist on not calling it a tax, it is also known as the under-occupancy penalty)

From the National Federation of Housing



> *What do the changes mean?*
> 
> The size criteria in the social rented sector will restrict housing benefit to allow for one bedroom for each person or couple living as part of the household, with the following exceptions:
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

How people will be affected:



> Wednesday 23 January 2013 UK
> *'Bed tax' forces people out of homes*
> 
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

> *introduction of ‘bedroom tax’*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

> *'Disgusting': Family's outrage at bedroom tax on severely disabled girl who needs her own room*
> 
> 27 Jan 2013 00:00
> Doctors have said the youngster needs a custom built room - but family will lose £20 a week because of new rules
> ...


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## Garek (Jan 31, 2013)

It's a disgusting tax. I wish I could find more words than that. Just quite shocked at the petty, vindictiveness of it.


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## lizzieloo (Jan 31, 2013)

This is so fucking depressing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

> *The spare bedroom tax: a mess of contradiction and impossibility*
> 
> In April the new 'spare bedroom tax' comes into force, meaning many low-income families and disabled people will be forced to move or face yet more cuts. The implications are frightening
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Part 2



> Five minutes from the Holdens' house, I meet 24-year-old Jason Gaffney. He's unemployed, and on the government's work programme. His flat has two bedrooms, one of which he uses as a compact studio: he's a talented artist and sculptor with A-levels in art and fine art, who says he wants to become self-employed and sell his work – fantasy-based stuff full of psychedelic elements redolent of Grateful Dead albums – online.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Quartz (Jan 31, 2013)

With regard to Mr Gaffney, perhaps, as well as rehousing him in a one-bedroom flat, which costs more, the government could also fund him a place in an artist's studio? That'd be sure to save them loads of money.

Plonkers.

Money quote:



> _"So what they're really doing is punishing people who are trying to work, and bring up a family, and who need that extra bit of support to make ends meet._


 
Plonkers.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

People need to understand that, as some shit recently said, 'economics is not a morality tale'. This is not about "punishment", it's about getting us mugs to pay for a crisis not of our own making. What's the solution? What it is always - to organise and fight back. Moaning about it isn't going to achieve anything.


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## dylanredefined (Jan 31, 2013)

Another idea that sounds great ,but, the reality is just cruel. Tories basically cunts.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

It doesn't even sound great. The tories use of the 'price mechanism' in a way to change behaviour is what it is.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

My eldest daughter was fostered by me for 11 years, until I legally adopted her. Under these rules she wouldn't have existed or been counted as a person. Pretty shit really for a child whose natural parents abandoned her (literally).


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

...and this £20 for a lodger. As I understand it a lodger eats meals with the family (mine does) and £20 won't cover his meals.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

I'm not claiming any benefits but I am in social housing. Personally I reckon second homers should pay a bedroom, living room, kitchen, en-suite bathroom, second loo and garden tax. Second homers cause terrible problems for local economies.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

Am I right in thinking that those who own a second home are exempt from council tax on the second property?

Edit: Probably when no one is deemed to be living there?


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## Belushi (Jan 31, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Am I right in thinking that those who own a second home are exempt from council tax on the second property?


 
They pay half iirc


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## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm not claiming any benefits but I am in social housing. Personally I reckon second homers should pay a bedroom, living room, kitchen, en-suite bathroom, second loo and garden tax. Second homers cause terrible problems for local economies.


I'm not against a bedroom tax if they start applying it after the third or fourth spare room and include private owners.


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## 8115 (Jan 31, 2013)

It's so badly thought out.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

It's not badly thought out. It's deliberate. They know most people affected won't move and it chimes with their overall goal of austerity cuts to public finances.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

8115 said:


> It's so badly thought out.


I don't think thought came into it at all


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## xes (Jan 31, 2013)

Garek said:


> It's a disgusting tax. I wish I could find more words than that. Just quite shocked at the petty, vindictiveness of it.


Why shocked at all? Our goverment have no morals, and will stoop lower than anyone can even measure, to feed their fat fucking faces, and the fat fucking faces of their rich friends. They don't even pretend to give a fuck about anyone else these days. Why do we vote for them again?

oh yes, plain fucking stupidity. That's why.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

They'll be some tinkering at the edges with discretionary payments. The main thrust of which will be out of their hands and in the hands of local authority's and their budgets.


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## 8ball (Jan 31, 2013)

xes said:


> oh yes, plain fucking stupidity. That's why.


 
It seems quite incredibly badly thought out.  Which is a hallmark of this Government, but I guess the game plan is to demonise anyone who complains.


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## free spirit (Jan 31, 2013)

> Bedroom size
> 12.We will not be defining what we mean by a bedroom in legislation and there is no definition of a minimum bedroom size set out in regulations. It will be up to the landlord to accurately describe the property in line with the actual rent charged.


double cunts.

So even the smallest of boxrooms that the landlord chooses to describe as a bedroom to push up the rent will also be classed as a bedroom for he purposes of a bedroom tax even if it's really not big enough for a full size adult bed + wardrobe + drawers.

or they would do if their guidance wasn't entirely wrong, as minimum bedroom sizes are clearly defined in the housing act 1985



> _Floor area of room__Number of persons_
> 110 sq. ft. or more 2
> 90 sq. ft. or more but less than 110 sq.ft. 1½
> 70 sq. ft. or more but less than 90 sq. ft. 1
> 50 sq. ft. or more but less than 70 sq. ft. ½


1-10 year olds count as 1/2.

IMO a bedroom should be minimum 70sq ft, as below this is only suitable for a child under 10, and it's nuts to expect a family to have to move house because their child is now too big for the tiny little box room they'd been sleeping in before.

these are absolute minimums, but I'd be extremely surprised to find a court upholding a bedroom tax on a room smaller than 70 sq ft.

This isn't my area though, so it's possible there is an updated version of this, if not then it should still stand legally as a minimum.


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## moochedit (Jan 31, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm not against a bedroom tax if they start applying it after the third or fourth spare room and include private owners.


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## 8ball (Jan 31, 2013)

Interesting, so some landlords who claim a box room is a bedroom will be better off not doing so in some circumstances.  Are there any rules saying that once you decide on a number you have to stickl to it barring major building work?


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## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I don't think thought came into it at all


I think that's a very optimistic world view.


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## 8ball (Jan 31, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm not against a bedroom tax if they start applying it after the third or fourth spare room and include private owners.


 
I was wondering about this - all I had heard was 'bedroom tax' and hadn't followed up the story until recently and thought I'd be affected on account of having a spare room (which does have a bed in it).

I'd sort of thought they were re-banding council tax for number of bedrooms or something to encourage a bit of downsizing.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

free spirit said:


> not big enough for a full size adult bed + wardrobe + drawers.


We live on an ex-council estate, now housing association. The bedroom I sleep in with my husband is slightly bigger than our bed and just has room for a chest of drawers that doesn't take clothes for both of us. It originally was bigger but at some time between the 1970s and 1990s one bedroom was turned into two. The other half of the room is my son's bedroom and it was a squeeze to get his bunk bed right in there (unless we removed the ladder) so basically the ladder was behind the door as it couldn't fit in any other way.


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## moochedit (Jan 31, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm not against a bedroom tax if they start applying it after the third or fourth spare room and include private owners.


and count every room in any 2nd,3rd homes, etc.


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## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

8ball said:


> I was wondering about this - all I had heard was 'bedroom tax' and hadn't followed up the story until recently and thought I'd be affected on account of having a spare room (which does have a bed in it).
> 
> I'd sort of thought they were re-banding council tax for number of bedrooms or something to encourage a bit of downsizing.


Nah, tis another tax on the poor; especially as in a lot of areas there is no spare social housing or help for people to move even if they wanted to. Spare room includes rooms used for kids with split custody (I think unless it's exactly 50:50). 

Let's hope it turns into this lot's poll tax, eh?


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## 8ball (Jan 31, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Let's hope it turns into this lot's poll tax, eh?


 
Fingers crossed.  This Government is now acting like they have no intention whatsoever of being re-elected and just want to do as much damage as possible.


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## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

8ball said:


> Fingers crossed. This Government is now acting like they have no intention whatsoever of being re-elected and just want to do as much damage as possible.


They're starting to act like they have a death wish tbh.


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## Voley (Jan 31, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> Let's hope it turns into this lot's poll tax, eh?


 
I really don't think it will. Grim as it may be, I think people are falling for all this 'skivers' stuff. It seems to resonate with all sorts of people.


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 31, 2013)

I remember when this bedroom tax was mooted in late 2011 - Everyone was on about boycott workfare and this just seemed to slip under the radar to the point that it's only now that most people are realising just how pernicious it's going to be.

People who are saying it's not been properly thought out are IMO wrong though - In blocks of flats with, say, 4 two berth flats and 1 or 2 one berth flats per landing, councils are going to struggle to let the 2 berth properties, the blocks won't be viable with just the 1 bedders being let, so the council will end up decanting the blocks and selling them off. Net result - Less council housing, which is the real intention of this bullshit.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

NVP said:


> I really don't think it will. Grim as it may be, I think people are falling for all this 'skivers' stuff. It seems to resonate with all sorts of people.


I fear you are right, plus those at the sharp end are ground down so much there's no fight left in them.


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## lazythursday (Jan 31, 2013)

Have a mate who is in this position. Two bedrooms, one of which is used when his kid stays. He's one of the few who has been offered a one bedroom place - but bizarrely, due to it being on the new 'affordable rents' rate, it's actually a higher cost than his current place. So if his business picks up (he's on working tax, self employed) and he doesn't need HB any more, he'll end up with higher costs. And the ex is making loud noises about trying to reduce his level of access if the kid doesn't have his own room.


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## Quartz (Jan 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> so the council will end up decanting the blocks and selling them off.


 
But who'd buy them?

Ah, of course, the councillors will get bungs from the property companies to allow them to reduce the number of flats so the later can turn the flats into luxury accommodation. Snouts at the trough!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2013)

Quartz said:


> luxury accommodation


In London that's a flat with a dishwasher. Probably no oven but there will be a microwave. I'm not even joking. I looked round a luxury showflat. Oh how I laughed. Young people who want to get on the property merry-go-round will accept any old shit.


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## Garek (Jan 31, 2013)

xes said:


> Why shocked at all? Our goverment have no morals, and will stoop lower than anyone can even measure, to feed their fat fucking faces, and the fat fucking faces of their rich friends. They don't even pretend to give a fuck about anyone else these days. Why do we vote for them again?
> 
> oh yes, plain fucking stupidity. That's why.


 
Yeah I know all that, I mean shocked in the sense of self preservation. It seems like a fantastic way to go about handing the next election to Labour.


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 31, 2013)

Quartz said:


> But who'd buy them?
> 
> Ah, of course, the councillors will get bungs from the property companies to allow them to reduce the number of flats so the later can turn the flats into luxury accommodation. Snouts at the trough!


 
Yep private developers will buy them - There's 3 blocks in Manchester that the council sold to urban splash for £1 each - Now "luxury" apartments. There'll be much more of that kinda shit, I reckon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

People think that families are falling apart and not spending enough time with one another.  Many suggest the family should all sit down together regularly for a meal.

Unfortunately, council houses don't generally have kitchens big enough for this and I doubt any of them have designated dining rooms

Maybe they should all decide to redesignate the spare rooms as dining rooms


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

lazythursday said:


> And the ex is making loud noises about trying to reduce his level of access if the kid doesn't have his own room.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

There's some prime locations near the city centre where I am with multi-storey's in place. *Condem*iniums!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I remember when this bedroom tax was mooted in late 2011 - Everyone was on about boycott workfare and this just seemed to slip under the radar to the point that it's only now that most people are realising just how pernicious it's going to be.
> 
> People who are saying it's not been properly thought out are IMO wrong though - In blocks of flats with, say, 4 two berth flats and 1 or 2 one berth flats per landing, councils are going to struggle to let the 2 berth properties, the blocks won't be viable with just the 1 bedders being let, so the council will end up decanting the blocks and selling them off. Net result - Less council housing, which is the real intention of this bullshit.


 
I've been keeping an eye on it and a few months ago, if you googled bedroom tax on the news section, there'd be a handful of articles.  Picked up a lot more now though


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## Hocus Eye. (Jan 31, 2013)

8ball said:


> Fingers crossed. This Government is now acting like they have no intention whatsoever of being re-elected and just want to do as much damage as possible.


 
I have to admit that I have thought that myself before now. However that is illogical for a group of toffs who will have no purpose once they are out of power. What will the career politicians be able to do outside of the sheltered space of Parliament.

I suspect that now realise that they will not get elected and they do want to do as much damage (they see it as positive change) as they can in their short time in Parliament so that once they are out of power the Labour Party won't be able to or have the courage or financial resources to restore it. The Tories' friends in business will be applauding these cuts enabling there to be tax cuts which no doubt will remain whatever random mix of Lib/Lab/independent forms the next government


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## baldrick (Jan 31, 2013)

The whole thing is vile.

Shows the sorts of people they're targeting though, families with students in university accommodation aren't subject to the tax but families whose children only stay over a few nights a week have to pay it. Disgusting.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 31, 2013)

This blog touches on the size of a room.

Can't read all this as there's too much for my brain to take in, but lots of info

http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/01/...why-it-will-add-billions-to-the-welfare-bill/


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## stuff_it (Jan 31, 2013)

audiotech said:


> There's some prime locations near the city centre where I am with multi-storey's in place. *Condem*iniums!


I'm sure the multi-story I slept in when I was in Edinburgh will still be there - it had radiators and double glazing in the stairwells.


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## audiotech (Jan 31, 2013)

Oh and it gets even worse apparently and pursued through the courts in order to save £480 million.



> A single parent working part-time on the minimum wage could pay £404 more in council tax from this April.


 



> Of the 326 local authorities in England, 184 plan to introduce a new or higher payment for those on low incomes from this April. Sixty councils intend to demand a minimum payment of 8.5 per cent of a full council tax bill, while 65 plan to introduce a minimum payment of 20 per cent. As a result, many of the 2.5 million out-of-work claimants who currently pay no council tax face a tax increase of between £96 (£1.80 per week) and £255 a year (£4.90 per week), while an additional 670,000 low-paid working families face an increase of up to to £577 a year.


http://www.newstatesman.com/politics/2013/01/poll-tax-ii-poorest-face-council-tax-rises-333


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## weepiper (Feb 2, 2013)

Govan Law Centre have taken this up:

http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/we-can-stop-evictions-for-bedroom-tax.html?m=1


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## spring-peeper (Feb 2, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> My eldest daughter was fostered by me for 11 years, until I legally adopted her. Under these rules she wouldn't have existed or been counted as a person. Pretty shit really for a child whose natural parents abandoned her (literally).




I was my impression that permanent foster children would be already included in your housing benefits.  It's the good people who keep a room for emergency placements that are going to be taxed.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 2, 2013)

baldrick said:


> The whole thing is vile.
> 
> Shows the sorts of people they're targeting though, families with students in university accommodation aren't subject to the tax but families whose children only stay over a few nights a week have to pay it. Disgusting.




no - the kids at university are not entitled to have a room at home.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 2, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> I was my impression that permanent foster children would be already included in your housing benefits. It's the good people who keep a room for emergency placements that are going to be taxed.


It was complicated.It was a limbo situation. I didn't even have any paperwork and they'd deliberately given me a false month of birth. It wasn't a placement via social services. Her parents left her with me then just fucked off permanently with no forwarding address or anything. The whole case had to go to the High Court for me to adopt her.

eta
I was working and not claiming any benefits, but I can't help but imagine me & mine into the current situation and viewing the situation with dread


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## 8115 (Feb 2, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> no - the kids at university are not entitled to have a room at home.


 
I think they are, as long as they're not away for longer than 52 weeks, from memory.


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## spring-peeper (Feb 2, 2013)

8115 said:


> I think they are, as long as they're not away for longer than 52 weeks, from memory.






> Households where there is a room kept for a student studying away from home will not be deemed to be under-occupying if the student is away for less than 52 weeks (under housing benefit) or 6 months (under Universal Credit).



I read the six month part, but didn't realize that the HB was a year.  Thanks.


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## audiotech (Feb 2, 2013)




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## geminisnake (Feb 2, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Govan Law Centre have taken this up:
> 
> http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/we-can-stop-evictions-for-bedroom-tax.html?m=1


 
The two words at the bottom are a right pig to get right.


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## Quartz (Feb 2, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> It's the good people who keep a room for emergency placements that are going to be taxed.


 
Or those wanting to adopt.


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## mentalchik (Feb 2, 2013)

So does this mean that my friend's daughter who has a 6 year old and a 4 year old, currently in a 3 bed house and entirely on benefits will be getting her housing benefit cut ?


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## xes (Feb 2, 2013)

Garek said:


> Yeah I know all that, I mean shocked in the sense of self preservation. It seems like a fantastic way to go about handing the next election to Labour.


it doesn't matter which party is in charge, they are all the same. Different faces, of the same twisted, corrupted coin. Which is why I do not vote, there is nobody worth voting for. They are all the same bunch of cunts, and life is no different under any of them. Fuck them, do not play the game.


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## BigTom (Feb 2, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> So does this mean that my friend's daughter who has a 6 year old and a 4 year old, currently in a 3 bed house and entirely on benefits will be getting her housing benefit cut ?



Yes if she is in social housing, the children being under ten will be expected to share, so your friend's daughter will have one spare room and will need to pay 14% of the rent or move to a 2bed place, private (at more cost no doubt) or social/council (if available)


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## Belushi (Feb 2, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> So does this mean that my friend's daughter who has a 6 year old and a 4 year old, currently in a 3 bed house and entirely on benefits will be getting her housing benefit cut ?


 
Afraid so


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## mentalchik (Feb 2, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Yes if she is in social housing, the children being under ten will be expected to share, so your friend's daughter will have one spare room and will need to pay 14% of the rent or move to a 2bed place, private (at more cost no doubt) or social/council (if available)


 
It's a 3 bed council house................will have to mention it as they are a bit clueless and i bet don't even realise this is happening


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## Belushi (Feb 2, 2013)

I think it's really beginning to hit home with people now


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## xes (Feb 2, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I think it's really beginning to hit home with people now


one can only hope.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 2, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I think it's really beginning to hit home with people now


 
I don't know why it's taken so long TBH. Ever since it was mooted in 2011 I thought the bedroom tax could well be a contender for the worst thing the coalition have done.


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## Bluesman (Feb 2, 2013)

xes said:


> it doesn't matter which party is in charge, they are all the same. Different faces, of the same twisted, corrupted coin. Which is why I do not vote, there is nobody worth voting for. They are all the same bunch of cunts, and life is no different under any of them. Fuck them, do not play the game.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 2, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Govan Law Centre have taken this up:
> 
> http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/we-can-stop-evictions-for-bedroom-tax.html?m=1


 
I'm sure I read somewhere that at least one HA in Glasgow (don't think it's the actual Glasgow Housing Association who manage all the ex council homes though) have pledged that they won't evict tenants for arrears incurred through the bedroom tax.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 2, 2013)

lazythursday said:


> Have a mate who is in this position. Two bedrooms, one of which is used when his kid stays. He's one of the few who has been offered a one bedroom place - but bizarrely, due to it being on the new 'affordable rents' rate, it's actually a higher cost than his current place. So if his business picks up (he's on working tax, self employed) and he doesn't need HB any more, he'll end up with higher costs. And the ex is making loud noises about trying to reduce his level of access if the kid doesn't have his own room.


 
That's one of the many illogical things about it - Someone in a 2 bed council gaffe with a rent of, say, £66 pw will have to find 14% of that themselves but someone in a one bed HA gaffe with a rent of £7o or £80 will still get full HB.


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## dessiato (Feb 2, 2013)

I guess my father is going to be affected. Although he hasn't mentioned anything. He lives in a three bedroomed house that he haas owned for about forty years. He is retired, and in poor health,  and his wife has had her hours and pay reduced due to so-called rationalisation. I doubt that they can afford to downsize due to the costs involved.


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## BigTom (Feb 2, 2013)

dessiato said:


> I guess my father is going to be affected. Although he hasn't mentioned anything. He lives in a three bedroomed house that he haas owned for about forty years. He is retired, and in poor health, and his wife has had her hours and pay reduced due to so-called rationalisation. I doubt that they can afford to downsize due to the costs involved.


 
owned? He won't get housing benefit will he? In any case, this doesn't affect pensioners (or it might be pension age) so I don't think you need to worry anyway but worth checking.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 2, 2013)

dessiato said:


> I guess my father is going to be affected. Although he hasn't mentioned anything. He lives in a three bedroomed house that he haas owned for about forty years. He is retired, and in poor health, and his wife has had her hours and pay reduced due to so-called rationalisation. I doubt that they can afford to downsize due to the costs involved.


 
Owner occupiers aren't affected. This only affects social housing tenants of working age (so assuming your old man's over 60, he wouldn't be touched anyway) who are in receipt of housing benefit.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I don't know why it's taken so long TBH. Ever since it was mooted in 2011 I thought the bedroom tax could well be a contender for the worst thing the coalition have done.


 
As I said earlier in the thread, a large amount of people seem to have been oblivious to this right up until very recently.  I think "under-occupancy penalty" is wording that won't catch someone's attention, but when they see "bedroom tax", they're suddenly noticing.  Doesn't help that the newspapers have been totally quiet on this up until recently (not totally, but there's not been a huge amount)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 2, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm sure I read somewhere that at least one HA in Glasgow (don't think it's the actual Glasgow Housing Association who manage all the ex council homes though) have pledged that they won't evict tenants for arrears incurred through the bedroom tax.


 
There's costs involved in evicting someone isn't there.  Probably not worth the hassle


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## sojourner (Feb 2, 2013)

Squat your own home. Yer, I know, squatting is now illegal, but if it was an en masse squatting...?


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## geminisnake (Feb 2, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> It's a 3 bed council house................will have to mention it as they are a bit clueless and i bet don't even realise this is happening


 
They should have had at least one letter about it by now. We have


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## mentalchik (Feb 2, 2013)

This, plus the sneaked in quietly reductions in council tax benefit are just gonna cause chaos and stress.......................


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## mentalchik (Feb 2, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> They should have had at least one letter about it by now. We have


 
Tbh this is someone with hardly any comprehension at how to manage money and bills etc so it would not suprise me if she doesn't 'get' what's going on...............


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2013)

Does anyone know how it works if you have an odd number of children? Like, if there are 3 kids in a 3-bedroom place with their parent/s, are they all supposed to share and rent the third bedroom out?


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## weepiper (Feb 3, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Does anyone know how it works if you have an odd number of children? Like, if there are 3 kids in a 3-bedroom place with their parent/s, are they all supposed to share and rent the third bedroom out?


 
I believe it's any two children to a room. This would bring it in line with the way it works already for private rent housing benefit - I'm not under-occupying because I have one room for me, one room for my daughter and one room for my two sons. I couldn't get any more HB for a 4 bedroom flat (I could in theory move into a 4-bed but I'd have to find the extra rent myself)


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## Fedayn (Feb 3, 2013)

Not now, however if I lose my job and have to sign on I will as I have a 2 bedroom flat.


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## Tankus (Feb 3, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Owner occupiers aren't affected. This only affects social housing tenants of working age (so assuming your old man's over 60, he wouldn't be touched anyway) who are in receipt of housing benefit.


 
quite ..its not a "tax" is it ? ...... but a reduction in _spending_ tax revenue money


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 3, 2013)

Tankus said:


> quite ..its not a "tax" is it ? ...... but a reduction in _spending_ tax revenue money


 
Bedroom tax is a bit of a misnomer yes, _but_ there's absolutely no way this will result in less spending of tax revenue on housing benefit though.


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## Tankus (Feb 3, 2013)

guess so  ....its fudging the numbers ...to give a headline cut only on one value


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2013)

weepiper said:


> I believe it's any two children to a room. This would bring it in line with the way it works already for private rent housing benefit - I'm not under-occupying because I have one room for me, one room for my daughter and one room for my two sons. I couldn't get any more HB for a 4 bedroom flat (I could in theory move into a 4-bed but I'd have to find the extra rent myself)


 
Then one of the families on that gif being sent around wouldn't be affected - the family with five kids, 4 of whom share one bedroom, the fifth, who has disabilities, having her own room. They wouldn't be affected regardless of her disabilities.


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## weepiper (Feb 3, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Then one of the families on that gif being sent around wouldn't be affected - the family with five kids, 4 of whom share one bedroom, the fifth, who has disabilities, having her own room. They wouldn't be affected regardless of her disabilities.


 
linky? Can't think which one you're meaning


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## mentalchik (Feb 4, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Then one of the families on that gif being sent around wouldn't be affected - the family with five kids, 4 of whom share one bedroom, the fifth, who has disabilities, having her own room. They wouldn't be affected regardless of her disabilities.


 
Well yes they will as they are having an extra room built for her and are expecting another child (making six kids)....the child with disabilities is only five so therefore her bedroom would have to be shared..........


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> They should have had at least one letter about it by now. We have


I have and we are not on Housing Benefit. It wasn't addressed to me personally, just 'The Occupier' so it could be misinterpreted as junk mail/not particularly relevant.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

Have just looked for info on my HA's website via a search on 'bedroom tax'. The letter I got (quite a while ago now) I remember as quite different - one bullet-pointed sheet of A4 about housing benefit changes and didn't spell out as clearly who was affected. Sadly I don't have it anymore as I binned it after a skim-read because I don't claim benefits.
https://www.metropolitan.org.uk/cus...fare-reform/welfare-reform-information-guide/


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## Obadiah (Feb 4, 2013)

Anyone with a miniscule of brain cell will know that this is another Tory Bastard way of making the disadvantaged pay for the thieving of the bankers. Furthermore, the quicker the `countries` debts are paid the quicker the Tory bastards can start to refill there pockets. Bedroom tax is just another way of fucking us up, they don't care, have never cared. But to be slightly fair to them, it is in there  DNA a, blood, breeding that anyone they deem below them shall suffer, and them having years of experience cant stop themselves. Are they suggesting a family living in a `one bedroom home who is on benefits will automatically qualify for a larger home? I DON'T FUCKING THING SO. Time to put our boots on, light the  torches of democracy and fairness and give London and that BASTARD Cameron a visit.


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> Well yes they will as they are having an extra room built for her and are expecting another child (making six kids)....the child with disabilities is only five so therefore her bedroom would have to be shared..........



The Gif (the Harper family one) makes it sound as though they need to pay the extra money now, before baby 6 is born.


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## wtfftw (Feb 4, 2013)

The artist from one of the articles wouldn't be able to move to a privately rented flat. Not on housing benefit anyway. He'd only get the room in a shared house rate until he turns 25. LHA has been forcing people to move but that seems to be based on bullshit that landlords will lower rents not just that tenants have to basically get a job (more bullshit) or move out of the family home. And what about benefit caps with universal credit?


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> The artist from one of the articles wouldn't be able to move to a privately rented flat. Not on housing benefit anyway. He'd only get the room in a shared house rate until he turns 25. LHA has been forcing people to move but that seems to be based on bullshit that landlords will lower rents not just that tenants have to basically get a job (more bullshit) or move out of the family home. And what about benefit caps with universal credit?


 
Single room rate applies till you are 35 now, changed when HB became Local Housing Allowance, along with the cut in rates to the cheapest 30% of the market.


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## wtfftw (Feb 4, 2013)

Yeah sorry. That's what I was trying to say.


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> Well yes they will as they are having an extra room built for her and are expecting another child (making six kids)....the child with disabilities is only five so therefore her bedroom would have to be shared..........


Six kids ? .... Nice if you can afford it.......... Oh wait.....!


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## xenon (Feb 4, 2013)

I think this will effect my sister.  She's in a 2 bedroom ground floor flat, is disabled, uses a wheelchair. Has asisstants but they don't stay over. Our nearest relatives go over visit, help out with stuff too of course. If they were further away, they'd use the spare room.


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

xenon said:


> I think this will effect my sister.  She's in a 2 bedroom ground floor flat, is disabled, uses a wheelchair. Has asisstants but they don't stay over. Our nearest relatives go over visit, help out with stuff too of course. If they were further away, they'd use the spare room.


 
Yes, afaik it will - on the assumption that there are no available 1-bed flats that are adapted/adaptable/suitable she should ask her council about getting payment from the discretionary fund that will be available. It's not a lot of money (£30m) but hers would be the kind of case that councils should at least consider for payment to cover the shortfall I would have thought - I don't actually know what the details are and they will vary from council to council anyway.. I would think that foster carers will be first in line though.


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## xenon (Feb 4, 2013)

Thanks. I need to speak to her about it. 

Just to add to what was said up there. I'm in HA flat. Received a letter regarding this. Seems I might have to phone them to remind them how many bedrooms there are in the flat I'm renting from them.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

xenon said:


> Thanks. I need to speak to her about it.
> 
> Just to add to what was said up there. I'm in HA flat. Received a letter regarding this. Seems I might have to phone them to remind them how many bedrooms there are in the flat I'm renting from them.


 
Yeah, representatives of the council came knocking on every door in our block asking how many bedrooms people had. It's all one bed flats. Still though, at least they are going out knocking on doors and explaining how the bedroom tax will affect people face to face instead of just sending out letters.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> Six kids ? .... Nice if you can afford it.......... Oh wait.....!


 
I would be in favour of the summary execution of any and all persons suspected of ever having said anything along the lines of "Don't have kids if you can't afford them".


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## lazythursday (Feb 4, 2013)

I've seen a council information van about the tax parked up in Wigan town centre, giving out leaflets etc. Struck me as a slightly random way to be getting the word out, but I guess a lot of people (like me) don't get round to reading half the stuff that comes through the post.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> Six kids ? .... Nice if you can afford it.......... Oh wait.....!


Thus spake the person whose charmed life has never taken a negative turn of events....


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

Oh I've made some negative turns alright ...I just don't expect other people to take responsibility for them,......and see that as a right


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## Belushi (Feb 4, 2013)

Yes, because raising six kids on benefits is easy street. Get a fucking grip.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus - What would you have happen to children of people who find themselves on benefit for whatever reason?

The whole "Don't have children if you can't afford them" thing is bullshit. Economics and market forces and othersuch nonsense are all just invented things and for people to willingly prostrate themselves before them is nothing short of ridiculous - Anyone who genuinely believes that it's in any way alright for people to have their lives circumscribed by such rubbish IMO relinquishes any right to be treated as a human being.


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Tankus - What would you have happen to children of people who find themselves on benefit for whatever reason?
> 
> The whole "Don't have children if you can't afford them" thing is bullshit. Economics and market forces and othersuch nonsense are all just invented things and for people to willingly prostrate themselves before them is nothing short of ridiculous - Anyone who genuinely believes that it's in any way alright for people to have their lives circumscribed by such rubbish IMO relinquishes any right to be treated as a human being.


 
so I guess  that makes all the Chinese ..sub human ....?  hmmm ...nice 

Should there be a right to tax payers subsidising spare bedrooms  ?   apparently so


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

"Tax-payers," "subsidising." Are we playing Daily Mail buzzword bingo? House prices! Hard-working families!


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## spring-peeper (Feb 4, 2013)

scifisam said:


> "Tax-payers," "subsidising." Are we playing Daily Mail buzzword bingo? House prices! Hard-working families!




Well.... technically, we are talking about a benefit that "subsidizes" those who qualify.  And this benefit is being paid by the government, who gets their money from the "taxpayer".


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

could play _socialist bingo _ instead



spring-peeper said:


> Well.... technically, we are talking about a benefit that "subsidizes" those who qualify. And this benefit is being paid by the government, who gets their money from the "taxpayer".


all the taxpayers !

and that's fine ... its a democracy ..... isn't it ?  ......


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## purenarcotic (Feb 4, 2013)

How dare somebody become redundant and require benefits to help them survive.  What cunts!

And earning a wage too low to cover rent?  Disgusting!  Take them out at dawn and shoot!


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> How dare somebody become redundant and require benefits to help them survive. What cunts!
> 
> And earning a wage too low to cover rent? Disgusting! Take them out at dawn and shoot!


 
that's a pretty nasty outlook ..... but Its not mine ..


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## purenarcotic (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> that's a pretty nasty outlook ..... but Its not mine ..


 
So what is your position?


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> that's a pretty nasty outlook ..... but Its not mine ..


 
What is your outlook? You seem to be suggesting that it's not ok for people in council accommodation to have a spare bedroom if their rent is being "subsidised by the taxpayer" as you put it - But, if people in 2 bed council flats are forced to give them up and move into one bed private lets or houseshares (coz there aren't enough one bed council properties available), then that's only going to push up the benefit bill for your poor beleaguered taxpayer.

People object to the bedroom tax not because they think everyone has the right to a state subsidised extra bedroom but becuse it's an unholy & vicious mess that's going to cause massive amounts of hardship without freeing up family accommodation or saving the taxpayer a single penny.


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## quimcunx (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> Six kids ? .... Nice if you can afford it.......... Oh wait.....!


 
So a couple has 6 children and a 5 bedroom council house.   The father has a job.  the father loses his job and is still out of work 6 months later.  the mother is at home looking after their children.  She has tried but failed to find a job since the father lost his. 

What would you do with this family?


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

........there is an issue with the benefits system ...and its with cost ..... all the party's are in agreement with that .......how do you set up a means testing system that doesn't cost more to implement than it is designed to save .?......if there are going to be cutbacks (of which all the party's are in agreement with ) ...what is to be done .....? reducing subsidies to the payment of "spare bedrooms " looks like an _easier to quantify_ beginning ........."spare" needs to be defined and better targeted ... perhaps

there are going to be losers ...(other than the top percentage) at any reduction ....

all these benefits and tax credits , vouchers ,offshore banking company dividends .... etc is all part of the same problem .........our tax system is unjust .........and dishonest ....

what I would want is a straight flat rate tax ......I guess .. clarity and a lot more political honesty

edit 


Mrs Magpie said:


> I'm not claiming any benefits but I am in social housing. Personally I reckon second homers should pay a bedroom, living room, kitchen, en-suite bathroom, second loo and garden tax. Second homers cause terrible problems for local economies.


 this too


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> ........*there is an issue with the benefits system* ...*and its with cost* ..... all the party's are in agreement with that .......how do you set up a means testing system that doesn't cost more to implement than it is designed to save .?......if there are going to be cutbacks (of which all the party's are in agreement with ) ...what is to be done .....? reducing subsidies to the payment of "spare bedrooms " looks like an _easier to quantify_ beginning ........."spare" needs to be defined and better targeted ... perhaps
> 
> there are going to be losers ...(other than the top percentage) at any reduction ....
> 
> ...


 
All the parties are full of shit, this country can easily afford the benefit system as it stands. Any issue is entirely manufactured.

And, as enough people have repeatedly explained, the bedroom tax can only serve to increase the benefit bill.


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## Dreich (Feb 4, 2013)

Here's a calculator for working out if you'll be affected,and if so, how much the charge will be:
http://www.hbnotes.co.uk/housingtools/bedroomtaxcalculator.aspx?key=718d33a578a3432c8a67bf119f9bf3f4
I work in housing, we've been sending out info on this for a couple of months, but when we're contacting tenants to discuss it,very few are aware of it or understand what it'll mean for them. The DWP claimed they were going to start an publicity campaign after Christmas, but I've seen fuck all.
I spoke to a tenant the other day that was getting a 25% penalty as the were only entitled one bedroom, but her and her partner sleep in different rooms for medical reasons, plus their grandson is on access and stays weekends, so needs a room. They're expected to find £50 off their £130 per fortnight ESA. It's utterly soul destroying.
When you factor in things like service charges not covered by HB, overpayments and so on, it will have the effect of pushing even social housing out of the poorest's grasp. For example, we have blocks where tenants pay a heating charge in with their rent,which isn't covered by Housing Benefit,which is £15.50 per fortnight, add in a HB overpayment at £7.10 (easy enough to get through no fault of your own,eg taking a job at short notice), and with the bedroom tax of around £25 (based on a £179 per fortnight rent charge), so that's £47.60 a fortnight, and that's based on the rent levels for this year,it'll all go up in April, so it'll be worse. There's no danger that's going to be affordable to anyone on benefits, especially the under 25s on the lower rate of benefits.
I have literally no fucking idea how this is going to play out. We're maybe slightly luckier in Scotland as I'm not sure the Scottish government will wear a massive wave of evictions, especially given they introduced leglisation last year to make court action and eviction harder, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## BigTom (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> so I guess that makes all the Chinese ..sub human ....? hmmm ...nice
> 
> Should there be a right to tax payers subsidising spare bedrooms ? apparently so


 
Are you aware that (a) council housing makes a profit and is not subsidised and (b) there are not enough smaller properties in social housing for people to move to, so they'll have to move to more expensive private rentals instead?
Personally I would rather pay less in HB for someone to have a 2-bed social housing property with a spare room, than pay more for someone to have a 1-bed private rental without a spare room.

Also, you know how many people like foster carers and separated parents with visiting children are classed as having spare bedrooms and will be caught by this even though the bedrooms are in regular use?


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 4, 2013)

I object to all the money that is being channelled via housing benefit to pay for the buy-to-letters mortgages and the situation of spiralling unsustainable rents that have to be propped up with housing benefit.


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## scifisam (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> ........there is an issue with the benefits system ...and its with cost ..... all the party's are in agreement with that .......how do you set up a means testing system that doesn't cost more to implement than it is designed to save .?......if there are going to be cutbacks (of which all the party's are in agreement with ) ...what is to be done .....? reducing subsidies to the payment of "spare bedrooms " looks like an _easier to quantify_ beginning ........."spare" needs to be defined and better targeted ... perhaps
> 
> there are going to be losers ...(other than the top percentage) at any reduction ....
> 
> ...



I'd tax ellipses.


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## geminisnake (Feb 4, 2013)

Tbh I object to a bunch of overpaid millionaires with at least 2 homes telling people they can't have a spare room. Especially when said millionaires are claiming fraudulent expenses on top of a £60k annual wage AND get subsided meals


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## Tankus (Feb 4, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I object to all the money that is being channelled via housing benefit to pay for the buy-to-letters mortgages and the situation of spiralling unsustainable rents *that have to be* propped up with housing benefit*.*


 
are being ?


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I object to all the money that is being channelled via housing benefit to pay for the buy-to-letters mortgages and the situation of spiralling unsustainable rents that have to be propped up with housing benefit.


 
And tax credits and housing benefit effectively subsidising employers who don't pay a living wage.


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## mentalchik (Feb 4, 2013)

Tankus said:


> ........there is an issue with the benefits system ...and its with cost ..... all the party's are in agreement with that .......


 
really ? and yet vastly more money goes unclaimed than is claimed......and the largest chunk of it by far goes to pensioners............how would a flat tax rate help you if you have no job ?


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Part of a letter written by one of our campaign group members:



> Anon:
> 
> Dear Mr Cameron.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Part of a letter written by one of our campaign group members:


 
Problem is Cameron will think that's hilarious.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Part of a letter written by one of our campaign group members:


 
Great letter.  Someone should stick that on the front page of a newspaper.  Ain't gonna happen though


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## geminisnake (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Problem is Cameron will think that's hilarious.


 
That's kinda what crossed my mind, well more that he wouldn't give a stuff


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## junglevip (Feb 6, 2013)

Just a thought, why not convert the unused space into a grow room?


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## audiotech (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Problem is Cameron will think that's hilarious.


 
It was claimed in December of last year, during the time of giving no less, that Oxford University's, Bullingdon Club, whose best known alumni include, David Cameron, the Chancellor, Gideon Osbourne and London Mayor, Boris Johnson, that part of their initiation ceremony is the burning of a fifty pound note in front of a beggar.

Hilarity reigns.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Great letter. Someone should stick that on the front page of a newspaper. Ain't gonna happen though


 
Wouldn't be so sure hun, journalists are falling over themselves at the moment to get stories from the campaign group...FINALLY!!!


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> That's kinda what crossed my mind, well more that he wouldn't give a stuff


 
Honestly...when it boils down to it, it doesn't matter he thinks....now we are getting news coverage and interviews we are much better placed to undermine and overshadow the Tory rhetoric and give the people they are demonising a voice/face etc...They will not win the PR war on this one. This is just one of thousands of stories that have been collated and the realities of just how evil this tax plus other cuts are, are finally being put in the wider public domain.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

*'Bedroom tax' will cost taxpayers more*



Ciaran Jenkins Reporter
The government's controversial new "bedroom tax" will cost rather than save money in parts of the country, it has been claimed. Reporter Ciaran Jenkins explains.

http://www.channel4.com/news/bedroom-tax-will-cost-taxpayers-more

Full video of the discussion at PMQs in this link.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

*Ed Miliband attacks David Cameron over bedroom tax*

Labour leader says cut in benefits for those with spare rooms in social housing will hit disabled people and military families

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/feb/06/ed-miliband-david-cameron-bedroom-tax?CMP=twt_fd


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## stuff_it (Feb 6, 2013)

Tankus said:


> quite ..its not a "tax" is it ? ...... but a reduction in _spending_ tax revenue money


It's effectively a tax as the money will come straight out of people's own pockets if they can't move, and many won't actually be able to move due to lack of funds or lack of suitable housing to move to.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Just a thought, why not convert the unused space into a grow room?


 
What point are you trying to make, jizzmop? Avoid getting evicted due to arrears incurred through the bedroom tax by being evicted for cannabis cultivation instead?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Interesting that Cameron is has now taken to saying 'it's not a tax' Oh yes it is and that's what we will continue to call it!


...and at the end he said this:



> "The fact is the public can see we are on the side of people who work hard and want to do the right thing. All you can ever do is spend more money."


  

Who? What? How? When? He clearly has a whole imaginary country in his head.


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## stuff_it (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What point are you trying to make, jizzmop? Avoid getting evicted due to arrears incurred through the bedroom tax by being evicted for cannabis cultivation instead?


They can't possibly check if everyone who is hit by the bedroom tax has become an indoor gardener - there are too many affected.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Interesting that Cameron is has now taken to saying 'it's not a tax' Oh yes it is and that's what we will continue to call it!


 
Reminiscent  of "It's not a poll tax, it's a community charge"


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> They can't possibly check if everyone who is hit by the bedroom tax has become an indoor gardener - there are too many affected.


 
It's hardly any sort of a solution though.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

*Welfare Website Set Up By Housing Justice 'To Counter Benefit Myth-Making Of George Osborne*

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...s-george-osborne_n_2622625.html?utm_hp_ref=tw


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## audiotech (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What point are you trying to make, jizzmop? Avoid getting evicted due to arrears incurred through the bedroom tax by being evicted for cannabis cultivation instead?


 
A precedent was set in Oxford some time back when a judge rejected an eviction notice for someone growing cannabis in rented social housing. This, along the lines that the person had already been punished through the criminal courts.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

BT on ITV news tonight at 6:30pm & Channel 4 news at 7:30pm apparently.


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## junglevip (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What point are you trying to make, jizzmop? Avoid getting evicted due to arrears incurred through the bedroom tax by being evicted for cannabis cultivation instead?


Might as well


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> Julia Jones
> Dear Mr Cameron
> 
> I heard you in PMQ say you would look at individual cases on the Bedroom Tax.
> ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 6, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> ...and this £20 for a lodger. As I understand it a lodger eats meals with the family (mine does) and £20 won't cover his meals.


 
apologies if I've missed someone else responding to this one

from a housing benefit perspective (there's nothing to say that the definition won't change - and I'm talking about England - the rules and terminology may be subtly different elsewhere) a "lodger" is someone who rents a room in the home in which their landlord lives (whether the 'landlord' is an owner occupier or a tenant isn't relevant)

in housing benefits speak, a "boarder" is one who gets some meals as part of the deal (i.e. bed and board) and the meals bit won't be paid by housing benefit.

Merton Council have an "under occupation factsheet" which goes into some detail on this (opens as PDF) - here


ETA - glad that C4 News said something about it, but the obvious questions they didn't ask are

a) where the heck are people pushed out of social housing supposed to get private tenancies from, since a heck of a lot of private landlords won't touch "DSS" tenants?

b) even more where the heck are they supposed to get the huge deposits for private tenancies from?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> ETA - glad that C4 News said something about it, but the obvious questions they didn't ask are
> 
> a) where the heck are people pushed out of social housing supposed to get private tenancies from, since a heck of a lot of private landlords won't touch "DSS" tenants?
> 
> b) even more where the heck are they supposed to get the huge deposits for private tenancies from?


 
Yes...and...

c) Given that private rents are much higher than social housing rents the HB will actually increase as more and more people are pushed into private rentals because they can't afford to pay the shortfall created by the BT reductions to their current HB.

d) Why no rent cap?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

One of our group Admins:



> *An example of the impact the 'bedroom tax' will have on a claimant !
> 
> A single unemployed mother with 1 child aged 8 currently gets £3,5k in Job Seeker's Allowance a year. Any money in Housing Benefit or Council Tax Credit goes to her landlord, the Housing Association.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes...and...
> 
> c) Given that private rents are much higher than social housing rents the HB will actually increase as more and more people are pushed into private rentals because they can't afford to pay the shortfall created by the BT reductions to their current HB.
> 
> d) Why no rent cap?


 
Someone who agrees with this (can't remember where I read it) counters that argument by saying that the bigger families who are living in overcrowded private accommodation will now be able to move into social housing, thus reducing their costs

They didn't say how many of these families there are in overcrowded accommodation compared to how many are in under-occupied accommodation


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## junglevip (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What point are you trying to make, jizzmop? Avoid getting evicted due to arrears incurred through the bedroom tax by being evicted for cannabis cultivation instead?


 
Having read a little more about this matter I feel my previous comments were misjudged and defiantly not thought through.  I am trying to get out of this habit


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Having read a little more about this matter I feel my previous comments were misjudged and defiantly not thought through. I am trying to get out of this habit


 
Soz, I was being a bit of a prick as well - There was no need for me to be so abrupt with you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Someone who agrees with this (can't remember where I read it) counters that argument by saying that the bigger families who are living in overcrowded private accommodation will now be able to move into social housing, thus reducing their costs
> 
> They didn't say how many of these families there are in overcrowded accommodation compared to how many are in under-occupied accommodation


 
Well this argument needs figures to back it up!  I'd like to see them that is for sure.

It's a joke really....many people can't downsize because there are no smaller properties to move to so are stuck. Also, private rents, regardless of the size of the flat are MUCH more than social housing rents, (although the difference between is slowly changing as more and more HAs up their rents to 80% market rents) So even if someone were underoccupying a 3 bed moved into a private 1 bedroom, their rent will still be higher than the 3 bed social housing property.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Well this argument needs figures to back it up!  I'd like to see them that is for sure.


 
Same as

Furthermore, I'm sick of hearing about the discretionary fund. The Government seem to be spouting that line for every "difficult" case


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Someone who agrees with this (can't remember where I read it) counters that argument by saying that the bigger families who are living in overcrowded private accommodation will now be able to move into social housing, thus reducing their costs
> 
> They didn't say how many of these families there are in overcrowded accommodation compared to how many are in under-occupied accommodation


 
It's patent nonsense being as most under occupied properties are 2 bed high rise efforts that aren't suitable for families anyway.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 6, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's patent nonsense being as most under occupied properties are 2 bed high rise efforts that aren't suitable for families anyway.


 
I know.  Just stating what type of thinking is out there


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I know. Just stating what type of thinking is out there


 
Oh yeah I should've made clear I didn't for one minute think you believed such nonsense.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 6, 2013)

> I have just watched PMQs again and you can here and in particular watch from 2:00 minutes in when Cameron says to Miliband:
> “Let me make the basic argument of fairness he seems to ignore. If you are in private sector rented housing and receive no housing benefit you dont get money for an extra room. If you are in private rented sector housing and on housing benefit you dont get money for an extra room. …*Why should we be doing more for people in social housing on housing benefit than for those in private rented on housing benefit*?”​​I have highlighted Cameron’s question on fairness for a very simple reason. The government is doing more for private rented than for socially rented, it is paying out £2.2 BILLION per year MORE for private housing than it does for the same number of properties as it would if they were socially rented.
> 
> Take a look at the official Housing Benefit figures here and you will find if you look at table 5 (cell G59 to be precise) that the private tenant receives on average £106.32 per week in Housing Benefit. Now scroll to your left and to cell D59 and you will see that a social tenant gets on average £81.12 per week. So we pay a private tenant £25.20 more in Housing Benefit per week.


http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/02/06/bedroom-tax-cameron-and-toy-boys-at-pmqs/


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## last16 (Feb 7, 2013)

Not read whole thread but this will affect me single guy in 2 bedroom for daughter at weekend and unemployed so will cost me £18 from my jsa every fortnight and I cant contest it? Shocking considering they cant provide the option of a 1 bedroom,albiet it would deny me access to my daughter,
Can someone,anyone explain how or what this is meant achieve other than shaft people in circumstances like mine?


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 7, 2013)

last16 said:


> Not read whole thread but this will affect me single guy in 2 bedroom for daughter at weekend and unemployed so will cost me £18 from my jsa every fortnight and I cant contest it? Shocking considering they cant provide the option of a 1 bedroom,albiet it would deny me access to my daughter,
> Can someone,anyone explain how or what this is meant achieve other than shaft people in circumstances like mine?


 
Sorry to hear about your situation - As things stand ATM no you can't contest it. And, I'm afraid, shafting people in circumstances like yours is  _all_ it's meant to achieve.


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## last16 (Feb 7, 2013)

Im aware of that but just cant believe how they can implement such a thing where I can do nothing except pay or be ejected,I know of a few guys in the boat as myself and imo it will cause a rumpus in the west of Scotland,if nowhere else?


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

last16 said:


> Im aware of that but just cant believe how they can implement such a thing where I can do nothing except pay or be ejected,I know of a few guys in the boat as myself and imo it will cause a rumpus in the west of Scotland,if nowhere else?


Hopefully, everywhere. These cunts will not stop until we stop them. And the next lot need to know they won't get away with it either.


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## free spirit (Feb 7, 2013)

last16 said:


> Not read whole thread but this will affect me single guy in 2 bedroom for daughter at weekend and unemployed so will cost me £18 from my jsa every fortnight and I cant contest it? Shocking considering they cant provide the option of a 1 bedroom,albiet it would deny me access to my daughter,


Sorry to hear that. It may well not achieve anything by itself, but I'd definitely suggest going to see your local MP at a surgery, or writing to him / her to explain your situation and ask them to intervene. They might find some way of assisting directly, but at least the more people who go to see their MP's, the harder it is for them to ignore it. The amount of people this is going to affect could easily flood MPs surgeries with requests for help which would get the message across fairly quickly to them that they've fucked right up.



last16 said:


> Can someone,anyone explain how or what this is meant achieve other than shaft people in circumstances like mine?


downfall of the government hopefully.


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## last16 (Feb 7, 2013)

without sounding like a defeatest,I think theres nothing I or anyone in my position can do,either pay the 14% shortfall of H.B or possibly be evicted,but to where? madness, but its putting the pressure on local authorities to chase the individuals for the shortfall,if Im correct?


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

last16 said:


> without sounding like a defeatest,I think theres nothing I or anyone in my position can do,either pay the 14% shortfall of H.B or possibly be evicted,but to where? madness, but its putting the pressure on local authorities to chase the individuals for the shortfall,if Im correct?


Something's gotta give. This is social housing. It's perfectly possible for them to selectively reduce rents or reduce the number of rooms counted as bedrooms where necessary to prevent evictions, and perfectly possible for them to refuse to evict and refuse to chase arrears.

The more pressure on the housing associations, councils and MPs, the more likely it is that the law will be broken instead of the tenants.

Finding the energy when life is being made impossible in the meantime is something else. The Govan Law Centre are doing some stuff on this. They and your local anticuts groups would be good places to find strength in numbers.


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## jakethesnake (Feb 7, 2013)




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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 7, 2013)

Today programme on radio 4 now with feature on this.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 7, 2013)

I hope they put it up as a separate report that can be accessed for more than 7 days.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

Record it, stick it up on youtube, when/if the BBC ask youtube to take it down argue that it is fair use (small segment of a bigger programme) and far too bloody important to be lost in the inaccessible BBC archives. If they haven't put it somewhere themselves, that might persuade them to do so.

I don't have the smarts to do it, but someone here will.


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## scifisam (Feb 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> One of our group Admins:




An easy solution for her (assuming she has a three-bedroom place and is still young enough to have babies) is to get up the duff again. Well, the only solution, really - taking in a lodger in a small home isn't always advisable with a child in the house.


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

scifisam said:


> An easy solution for her (assuming she has a three-bedroom place and is still young enough to have babies) is to get up the duff again. Well, the only solution, really - taking in a lodger in a small home isn't always advisable with a child in the house.


 
Only a 'solution' if the next youngest child is over ten. Otherwise they'd still have to share


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## scifisam (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Only a 'solution' if the next youngest child is over ten. Otherwise they'd still have to share


 
True. And actually even then they'd have to share if they were of the same gender, wouldn't they?


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

scifisam I have seen her so called spare room. just enough room for a single bed even, little more than a cupboard! 

See pic here: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=4851157069175&set=oa.409228149170952&type=1&theater


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

scifisam said:


> True. And actually even then they'd have to share if they were of the same gender, wouldn't they?


 
yep. They've thought quite hard about how to screw people over and not leave any escape routes.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

Didn't hear the R4 debate but apparently a Tory ignoramous thinks that taking on more work is the solution. Yeah, okay then.


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

The 'take in a lodger' thing. Just fuck off. How would they like to have a strange man brushing his teeth while their school-age kids are running around getting dressed in the morning?


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

So, young couple gets housed in one bed flat. Have a kid, get rehoused in a two bed. Have a second kid of a different sex and need a three bed when kid one turns teen. Kid one leaves home, they need a two bed. Kid two leaves home and they need a one bed, and their kids can't come home if they run into trouble, or even (comfortably) for Christmas.

Fucking stupid. Social housing is for life for a reason. Clueless cunts.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

> *House of Lords* ‏@*UKHouseofLords*
> Lords asks how govt will improve #*socialhousing* stock this year from 11am http://goo.gl/vqeUv  #*ukhousing*


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## scifisam (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> The 'take in a lodger' thing. Just fuck off. How would they like to have a strange man brushing his teeth while their school-age kids are running around getting dressed in the morning?


 
I've known families who've taken in lodgers, but they were usually in bigger homes where the lodger was more separate. And obviously it's not suitable for rooms like the one Rutita's talking about which aren't actually big enough for anyone to sleep in.

Maybe if it's not actually big enough for a bed she could measure it then ask the HA to reclassify it? The HA stands to benefit from that too, after all.


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

good article in The Herald today

http://www.heraldscotland.com/comment/columnists/taking-the-social-out-of-social-housing.20137721


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

Another example of the situation many people are in:



> Naomi End Bsl Williams
> I'm wondering how, if i down grade my 2 bed council house that is £80pw & swap it for a 1 bed housing association flat that is charging £120pw just up the road, how are they saving money? I have been here 20 years & spent a lot of money on my house over the years.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper Is The Herald this good on everything? And if so, will they deliver to West Brom?


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

ymu said:


> weepiper Is The Herald this good on everything? And if so, will they deliver to West Brom?


 
varies, it's not bad generally though I have to say. Remember it's a Glasgow paper so always going to have a fairly lefty slant


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

Anyone who feels moved to support the campaign on Twitter can do so by using #bedroomtax.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> varies, it's not bad generally though I have to say. Remember it's a Glasgow paper so always going to have a fairly lefty slant


 
I want to seek political asylum in Scotland but the boy won't let me.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2013)

Been thinking about it myself Ymu tbh!


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

another excellent article about how it's impossible to escape the bedroom tax (or indeed any benefit cut) by 'just working a few more hours' here

http://www.affinitysutton.com/news_...olicy_positions/our_opinions/bedroom_tax.aspx


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

weepiper said:


> another excellent article about how it's impossible to escape the bedroom tax (or indeed any benefit cut) by 'just working a few more hours' here
> 
> http://www.affinitysutton.com/news_...olicy_positions/our_opinions/bedroom_tax.aspx


That is a really good resource to shove at people who just don't get what the problem is.


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## marty21 (Feb 7, 2013)

The Government seems to think that the under occupiers can just move to smaller places - that ain't going to happen, there are plenty of tenants in overcrowded accommodation but not enough bigger places for them to mutually exchange into.

Also as someone has said earlier - if they move into private accomodation , the rent will be higher , so HB will increase - craziness


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

Are your workplace/housing officers nationally considering any action marty21? Of the quietly subversive or public protest type?


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 7, 2013)

Radio London reporting this - last round of HB cuts now causing increased benefit bill to deal with homeless families.


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## marty21 (Feb 7, 2013)

ymu said:


> Are your workplace/housing officers nationally considering any action marty21? Of the quietly subversive or public protest type?


 not heard any talk of it - difficult to take action at work as it could lead to losing your job


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> not heard any talk of it - difficult to take action at work as it could lead to losing your job


Not if it is collective action. There are rather more tenants than housing officers getting fucked over here. What is your union doing?


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## geminisnake (Feb 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Another example of the situation many people are in:


This is pretty much our situation.
Our council rent is less than £300 a month. The cheapest rent I can find privately is £360 a month so yes we could move and yes our HB bill would rise. This has been done imo to empty properties in London and screw the rest of the country


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

It'll screw London hard too. That city dies without enough people to do the low wage hospitality, entertainment, retail, cleaning and security work, and many of the small businesses catering to locals will die with their incomes.


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## geminisnake (Feb 7, 2013)

ymu said:


> It'll screw London hard too. That city dies without enough people to do the low wage hospitality, entertainment, retail, cleaning and security work, and many of the small businesses catering to locals will die with their incomes.


They need somewhere to put the new wave of EU workers imo. There won't be a shortage of workers 

Never under estimate the greed and stupidity of tories/politicians  They want people on benefits out of London so they can either bring in cheap labour and/or sell of empty properties to their mates to make even more money. I will believe this until they prove otherwise.


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## 8115 (Feb 7, 2013)

.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> They need somewhere to put the new wave of EU workers imo. There won't be a shortage of workers


Not that can afford to work for the wages currently on offer whilst living in London. They have no access to benefits until they've been working here for an unbroken year (AFAIK, someone who knows please confirm/deny).

AFAIK, the first waves of Eastern European immigrants were highly skilled people willing to take low paid jobs whilst they learnt the language and were able to take jobs they were qualified for. Then they realised that UK wages really aren't as good as they look if you're also paying UK rents and it would be no easier to build a life here than back home. So now they come for three months at a time and live in cheap overcrowded accommodation, saving every penny they can get, and mostly not in minimum wage jobs. And even where they are taking minimum wage jobs, that kind of staff turnover is a killer for most industries. Productivity is shit when few employees have been there more than a few weeks, and recruitment and training cost a fucking fortune.


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## Belushi (Feb 7, 2013)

I dont think thats completely true ymu, I know a lot of Poles & Lithuanians who have built careers here and are settling down, buying places, having kids etc.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 7, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Radio London reporting this - last round of HB cuts now causing increased benefit bill to deal with homeless families.


 

Fucking ridiculous innit


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I dont think thats completely true ymu, I know a lot of Poles & Lithuanians who have built careers here and are settling down, buying places, having kids etc.


 
Bought houses, ie not stuck in low paid work where the bedroom tax would be a killer.

There's a specific context to that post: how will the low wage jobs in London be filled?

I realise it's a huge generalisation and could never be 'completely true', but I'm not convinced that there will be enough people able to afford to take those jobs in that city on a long-term basis. There are much more attractive destinations in Europe than the UK under austerity.


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## Part 2 (Feb 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Also as someone has said earlier - if they move into private accomodation , the rent will be higher , so HB will increase - craziness


 
Is it the case that social housing rents are gradually going to increase to come into line with the private sector?

I swear I read something about it somewhere


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## Voley (Feb 7, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> Is it the case that social housing rents are gradually going to increase to come into line with the private sector?
> 
> I swear I read something about it somewhere


Yes, the Orwellian-monikered 'affordable rents'. Up to 80% of market rents.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> Is it the case that social housing rents are gradually going to increase to come into line with the private sector?
> 
> I swear I read something about it somewhere


They've said they're going to go up to 80% of private rents for new tenancies. I'm not sure if it affects existing ones or whether they've started yet.


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## Voley (Feb 7, 2013)

http://www.homesandcommunities.co.uk/ourwork/affordable-rent

New tenancies only where I work, started already. Also lots of stuff about tenancies being 'more flexible' - ie short-term for just a few years rather than secured. All a load of shite, basically. I still work in social housing as although it's only a Band-Aid over a gaping wound it's a vitally necessary one.

It's becoming increasingly soul-destroying to work in this environment mind.


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## ymu (Feb 7, 2013)

This is going to fuck up housing lists too, isn't it? If there's no one beds available, no singles or couples can be allocated them. No allocating anyone whatever the size of their family to the closest fit taking need into account, just no housing for them until the exact right-sized place is available (or more overcrowding). And more rehousing because singles become couples become parents whose kids leave home.

Christ, what a mess. Fucking expensive mess.


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## Voley (Feb 7, 2013)

I spent half an hour talking through the options with a single woman in a 3 bed house today. As she lives in an area where there's a section 106 agreement in place (lettings to people with a local connection only) she'd only be able to do a mutual exchange with someone from within a few miles. To say this limits her chances of downsizing is the understatement of the century. So here's someone who is willing to give up her home of 15 years plus, is willing to do what the government are forcing her into, but can't. There's so much of this that they simply haven't thought through / couldn't give a fuck about.


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## geminisnake (Feb 7, 2013)

NVP said:


> There's so much of this that they simply haven't thought through / couldn't give a fuck about.


Sums it up imo


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## weepiper (Feb 7, 2013)

I know it's Eoin Clarke but:

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/02/finally-tory-smear-justification-for.html



> The English Housing Survey has just been published. It shows quite clearly that there is 5 times lessunder-occupancy in social housing than there is in Owner-Occupied homes, and there is 60% more under-occupancy in private rental homes than there is social housing. Less than 400,000 social homes in England are under-occupied. In short, if every type of housing used their space as efficiently as social renters do, then the UK would suffer much less acute housing shortage than it does today. We should be applauding social renters for their efficiency not demonising them. In fact, 97% of social homes have three bedrooms or less. What's more, 65% of social homes have 2 bedrooms or less. The proportion of under-occupied homes that are social housing is just 5%.


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*http://www.thisisplymouth.co.uk/Wic...tory-18076382-detail/story.html#axzz2KCXTixau local paper showing how bad in the south west*


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Great letter. Someone should stick that on the front page of a newspaper. Ain't gonna happen though


 
Looky here Minnie_the_Minx....slowly but surely I tell thee!



> *Letters: Dear Mr Cameron, What Gives You The Right To Judge Me Falsely?*
> 
> By
> wns_admin
> – 8 February, 2013


 
http://welfarenewsservice.com/letters-dear-mr-cameron-what-gives-you-the-right-to-judge-me-falsely/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Looky here Minnie_the_Minx....slowly but surely I tell thee!
> 
> 
> 
> http://welfarenewsservice.com/letters-dear-mr-cameron-what-gives-you-the-right-to-judge-me-falsely/


 


Doubt he'll ever read it though.  Doubt Daily Mail types will see it either


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Doubt he'll ever read it though. Doubt Daily Mail types will see it either


 
Oh well maybe not Dave but others will. I have a feeling it will be shared loads and reprinted elsewhere.


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## mentalchik (Feb 8, 2013)

Chip Barm said:


> Is it the case that social housing rents are gradually going to increase to come into line with the private sector?
> 
> I swear I read something about it somewhere


 
Yes, my HA rent has gone up by 25% in five years.......it's getting to the point where i am struggling with it at half my take home wage


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

http://www.westsussextoday.co.uk/ne...267?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed

*VIDEO: Crawley Debate - concerns about ‘bedroom tax’*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)




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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*10,000 Liverpool families face up to seven years of bedroom tax misery (MAP)*

​Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/liverpool-news/local-news/2013/02/08/10-000-liverpool-families-face-up-to-seven-years-of-bedroom-tax-misery-map-100252-32768525/#ixzz2KIhbJj00​


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

http://www.landlordreferencing.co.uk/blog/2013/02/07/cameron-i-dont-accept-the-bedroom-tax-is-a-tax/
*Cameron: ‘I don’t accept the bedroom tax is a tax…’*


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*Landlord Cameron’s bedroom tax – he wants you out, basically*


http://www.dailyshame.co.uk/2013/02/satire/landlord-camerons-bedroom-tax-he-wants-you-out-basically/


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*IDS accuses Miliband of pathetic scaremongering over ‘bedroom tax’*

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffee...-of-pathetic-scaremongering-over-bedroom-tax/


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/under-pressure/6525668.blog

*Under pressure*

*From: Inside edge*


----------



## mentalchik (Feb 8, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> It's a 3 bed council house................will have to mention it as they are a bit clueless and i bet don't even realise this is happening


 
Unfortunately i was right....spoke to my friend and she knew nothing about it, daughter hasn't mentioned it either........


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## weepiper (Feb 8, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> Unfortunately i was right....spoke to my friend and she knew nothing about it, daughter hasn't mentioned it either........


 
It's kind of worrying that so many people that are going to lose money don't seem to have heard about it


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## mentalchik (Feb 8, 2013)

yup 

without going into it all they are a car crash of a family at the best of times so it doesn't really suprise me tbh !


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

http://www.bristolanticutsalliance.org.uk/2013/02/07/watch-out-here-comes-the-bedroom-tax/


*Watch Out – Here Comes The Bedroom Tax!*


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## marty21 (Feb 8, 2013)

ymu said:


> Not if it is collective action. There are rather more tenants than housing officers getting fucked over here. What is your union doing?


 tbh, haven't heard much from the union about this


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## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/1246-raise-awareness-to-the-misery-of-bedroomtax



> I along with many others face the Bedroom Tax. We are all different and have a different story to tell. This isn't about bricks and mortar. This is about Peoples HOMES. Nobody should ever be forced to leave their home when it is through NO fault of their own!!
> I hope you can join us in raising awareness for this injustice against the very poorest in society, the ones that need help.
> 
> Thank you
> ...


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 8, 2013)

Tory twunt just quoted on Radio London, suggesting people (who are working and getting HB) work a few more hours to pay the shortfall.

Have I missed the point, or has he?

Leaving aside the question of whether people can actually persuade their employer just to give them more hours, wouldn't they lose most of the extra pay in getting their HB reduced, and then still have the bedroom tax applied?

He is talking bollocks, isn't he??


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Tory twunt just quoted on Radio London, suggesting people (who are working and getting HB) work a few more hours to pay the shortfall.
> 
> Have I missed the point, or has he?
> 
> ...


 
An example of how that would work was posted on either this thread or the other one (or I may have read it somewhere completely different)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

Ah, here's the one I found



> Let's take a simple example.  A young woman leaving care, who was allocated a two bedroom flat costing £100 a week as there were no one bedroom flats available in her area, faces a deduction of £14 a week from her housing benefit. .  She is already working 16 hours a week at the minimum wage.  Working an extra three hours a week will net her less than £3 because her housing and council tax benefit will be reduced because of the additional hours: nowhere near enough to make up for the bedroom tax deduction.  To earn an additional £14 a week, enough to pay for the bedroom tax, she will need to work 28 hours: a whole 12 hours more.  However this doesn't mean she has escaped the bedroom tax: in fact she will still face the full £14 being taken from her remaining housing benefit.  To completely escape she must work a total of 48 hours a week at the minimum wage – three times her current working hours.
> 
> Someone facing a larger deduction must work longer hours still to escape the bedroom tax.  For example, a divorced father of two whose 10-year-old son and 16 year-old daughter stay with him at weekends in his three bedroom home.  If his home is rented at £180 per week, and he is already working full-time (35 hours) at the minimum wage, he faces a loss of housing benefit of £45 a week when the bedroom tax is introduced. This will cost him over a third of the income he currently has left after paying his rent.  To earn enough to cover the deduction he would have to work as much as 63 hours a week.  And to escape the bedroom tax altogether he would have to work 76 hours a week: the equivalent of more than two full-time jobs.
> 
> ...


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ah, here's the one I found


 
thanks.

in which case whichever tory twunt it was is talking bollocks.

I had a 'this seems such obvious bollocks that I wonder if I've got it wrong' moment.

text to eddie nestor on its way...

where did you get that from? I'm tempted to e-mail it to him as well

ETA - found it.


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## weepiper (Feb 8, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Tory twunt just quoted on Radio London, suggesting people (who are working and getting HB) work a few more hours to pay the shortfall.
> 
> Have I missed the point, or has he?
> 
> ...


 
yes, utter bollocks. He either has no clue how the benefit system works or he's banking on the fact that most Tory voters have no clue how the benefit system works


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## yardbird (Feb 8, 2013)

Get this:

I live in my own house, just become an OAP and I'm disabled.
Because of my disability I get £19.73 additional to my pension.
Now, I've got a spare/guest room and would quite like my stepson to come and stay for a bit.
This is a no no!
He can come for a holiday period but not for any length of time.
The money is from The Pension Service and nothing to do with my DLA.

I would put someone up at no rent in an empty bedroom and I would lose money?

Nuts!


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## BigTom (Feb 8, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Get this:
> 
> I live in my own house, just become an OAP and I'm disabled.
> Because of my disability I get £19.73 additional to my pension.
> ...


 
Bedroom tax doesn't apply to anyone of pension credit age, or when Universal Credit comes in this year if you're a couple then you'll both need to be pension age.

oh wait, you're not saying that are you, you're saying you'll lose your 19.73/week additional payment if you someone stays in the spare room?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

'Call me Dave' will now be referred to as the #BedroomSnatcher.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 8, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Get this:
> 
> I live in my own house, just become an OAP and I'm disabled.
> Because of my disability I get £19.73 additional to my pension.
> ...


 


Says who?  My gut feeling is you've been given questionable advice.

DLA is not affected by whether you live alone or not.  Nor to the best of my knowledge are pensions.

If I understand you right, you're an owner occupier, so housing benefit and therefore 'bedroom tax' isn't an issue.

The only thing I can think of that might affect you is if you're getting single person discount on your council tax.

If stepson is under 18, he's not going to count as far as council tax is concerned.

If he's over 18, and not working, then second adult rebate may be relevant (bear in mind that council tax benefit is being 'localised'* from this April, so this may change.)

If he's over 18 and working, it would depend whether your place becomes his 'main residence' or not - I have a part time lodger, who averages about 3-4 nights a week here (he works some of the time from an office nearer his parents' home, and can usually do a day a week working from home - again usually at his parents' place.)  I did enquire when he moved in  where I stood with council tax, and the advice I got was that if he's not full time here, and he's still registered with doctors etc from his parents' address, then he doesn't count as 'resident' here for council tax.

The other possible line of enquiry is whether (since you're getting DLA) whether you could claim stepson to be a 'carer'?

Obviously I may have missed / misunderstood something here.

* localisation = cut the funding, pass responsibility to local authorities, then blame them for the consequences.


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 8, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> <snip>in which case whichever tory twunt it was is talking bollocks.<snip>


I find it a useful default assumption.


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> 'Call me Dave' will now be referred to as the #BedroomSnatcher.


I'm not sure it's a good idea to start calling him that - what will the next one go for... limb removal? It will just up with some Young Conservative being all 'challenge accepted'.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 8, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I find it a useful default assumption.


 


text read out, although I apparently referred to a lib-dem junior minister as a "tory" (I didn't catch who he was, just what he said, and if it's impossible to tell the buggers apart at any distance, I don't think that's my fault...)


----------



## stuff_it (Feb 8, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> text read out, although I apparently referred to a lib-dem junior minister as a "tory" (I didn't catch who he was, just what he said, and if it's impossible to tell the buggers apart at any distance, I don't think that's my fault...)


----------



## yardbird (Feb 8, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Bedroom tax doesn't apply to anyone of pension credit age, or when Universal Credit comes in this year if you're a couple then you'll both need to be pension age.
> 
> oh wait, you're not saying that are you, you're saying you'll lose your 19.73/week additional payment if you someone stays in the spare room?


That's right and it's not like I'd be taking rent.
The lad is schizophrenic, so from a purely practical pov I can't say how long he might stay.-
Still, a bit of a derail, sorry.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*http://www.itv.com/news/2013-02-07/families-hit-by-bedroom-tax-tell-of-finance-fears/*



*Terry Avery had a severe stroke three years ago and is unable to use the left side of his body, and is in a wheelchair. The couple live in a two bedroom home, specially adapted to Terry's health needs. Karen said it would be impossible for the couple to sleep in the same room:

With the hospital bed, lift, chest of drawers and turning space for his wheelchair there is no space for a wardrobe which is kept in my bedroom. There is not even room for me to sleep on the floor comfortably, which I would have to do as there is no room for a second bed or mattress.*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

stuff_it said:


> I'm not sure it's a good idea to start calling him that - what will the next one go for... limb removal? It will just up with some Young Conservative being all 'challenge accepted'.


 
Too Late...I accidentallied all over twitter and it seems to have stuck.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 8, 2013)

yardbird said:


> That's right and it's not like I'd be taking rent.
> The lad is schizophrenic, so from a purely practical pov I can't say how long he might stay.-
> Still, a bit of a derail, sorry.


 
You're not affected, don't worry. No matter all the other intricacies, you are not a social housing tenant, and this only applies to them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

scifisam said:


> You're not affected, don't worry. No matter all the other intricacies, you are not a social housing tenant, and this only applies to them.


 
It affects anyone in receipt of HB who is deemed to be underoccupying.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> It affects anyone in receipt of HB who is deemed to be underoccupying.


 
Sort of, the rules have already applied to Housing Benefit paid for private lets for some years.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> It affects anyone in receipt of HB who is deemed to be underoccupying.


 
But sam's point is Yardie owns his home, so it doesn't affect him


----------



## toggle (Feb 8, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Sort of, the rules have already applied to Housing Benefit paid for private lets for some years.


 
in that you get the rate for the size house they think you should have. there's no change in the rate if your place is larger.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> in that you get the rate for the size house they think you should have. there's no change in the rate if your place is larger.


 
yes, I just meant that private tenants on Housing Benefit are not going to notice any change when this comes in iyswim.


----------



## yardbird (Feb 8, 2013)

Sorry. Missunderstanding , just pointing out one querk in a strange overall system.

I'm just changing from ESA to OAP. 
I get an additional £19 73 per week "based on caring/incapacity".

The pennies go if I have anyone living with me as I was informed by The Pension Fund.
I could, of course, live in sin


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 8, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Sorry. Missunderstanding , just pointing out one querk in a strange overall system.
> 
> I'm just changing from ESA to OAP.
> I get an additional £19 73 per week "based on caring/incapacity".
> ...


 
hmm.

I don't want to derail the thread, but I've never heard of anything like this.  Might be worth talking to CAB or similar about it.  If we're talking state pension, I'm not at all convinced (it's not unknown for benefits people to give duff advice on occasion).  I suppose that an occupational pension can have whatever rules it likes.

And did whoever tell you this mean "someone living with you" in the sense of "someone living in the household" or "someone living with you as a partner"?  (for some benefits, there's a difference)

I think you might be on thin ice if you did make it a tenancy and he claim housing benefit - since you would be 'a close family member' (more here)


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

Our Michelle and others on Spotlight:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01qg091/Spotlight_08_02_2013/


Notice the BBC  calling it 'a spare room benefit cut.'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

*Bedroom Tax – The private landlord doesn’t do disability! An equality challenge?*

http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/02/...d-doesnt-do-disability-an-equality-challenge/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> But sam's point is Yardie owns his home, so it doesn't affect him


 

Oooops sorry missed that! Carry on...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Bedroom Tax – The private landlord doesn’t do disability! An equality challenge?*
> 
> http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/02/...d-doesnt-do-disability-an-equality-challenge/


 
Cameron:  My stock answer to that is the discretionary fund and Labour left us with this mess


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 8, 2013)

Yes...I know...he will come unstuck though, so to speak I can feel it in my bones!


----------



## scifisam (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Oooops sorry missed that! Carry on...


 
Yes - the private tenants were already fucked over by LHA if they were deemed to have more space than necessary, depending on their age. First they came for the private tenants...

I hate to quote that, but it is the way it's gone.

Though Yardie would still have been fine because the Tories are desperately clinging on to pensioners' votes, assuming that the pensioners will think it's OK if they keep their rights even while their families and friends are being shafted.


----------



## quimcunx (Feb 8, 2013)

Perhaps they imagine the pensioners children no longer talk to them, perhaps because they've never forgiven them for voting thatcher in.   


This whole scheme is a fucking disgrace, again, like everything else they've done with the economy.


----------



## toggle (Feb 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Bedroom Tax – The private landlord doesn’t do disability! An equality challenge?*
> 
> http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/02/...d-doesnt-do-disability-an-equality-challenge/


 
looking at the figures in that. i seem to recall there are grounds to challenge policies if their effects are disproportionate upon a protected group? and that effect hasn't been fully considered or mitigated against. which i think is the point they are trying to get at.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 9, 2013)

Another example of a letter to #BedroomSnatcher Cameron



> *My Letter to acting PM*
> By Libby Drake in Bedroom Tax & Disabled Campaign page
> Below is a copy of the letter i shall be sending to the acting PM aswell as a copy being sent to my local MP, Iain Duncan Smith and the papers.
> 
> ...


 
https://www.facebook.com/groups/453691884690427/doc/483503698375912/


----------



## ayatollah (Feb 9, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Another example of a letter to #BedroomSnatcher Cameron
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.facebook.com/groups/453691884690427/doc/483503698375912/


 
Prime Ministers Office
Downing Street
London


Dear (enter name)

thank you for your recent letter concerning the changes to certain Housing Benefit Allowance rules. The Prime Minister has received many letters on this subject recently. The Prime Minister wishes it to be known that he doesn't give a flying fuck about your problems. He's in charge and very rich, and you aren't. Beyond that vital point though its a basic issue of fairness, an issue close to the heart of every policy of the Coalition Government as I'm sure you are aware. ie, Is it fair that you have living conditions in our globalised world economy which are in so many ways just so much better than a typical worker in the Nile Delta or Zimbabwe or Gwandong Province ? No it isn't. Now kindly fuck off.

Yours Sincerely



Dave Cameron
Prime Minister


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/the-bedroom-tax-letter-that-shames-david-1647647



> *Bedroom tax: The heart-wrenching letter that shames David Cameron*
> 
> 9 Feb 2013 22:00
> Julia Jones, who will have to live on just £53 a week, faces losing the home and garden where she scattered her husband's ashes


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

> *Bedroom tax: Ten worst places to be hit by the cut*
> 
> 9 Feb 2013 23:47
> Poorest areas hardest hit by David Cameron's under-occupancy tax


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-ten-worst-places-1648098#.URbq9dbh1FM.twitter


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

Bedroom Tax – Time for some facts about housing http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/bedroom-tax-time-for-some-facts-about-housing/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

#*BedroomSnatcher* Social Housing Bosses To Be Paid Thousands Per Meeting Whilst Tenants Face Homelessness http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/02/09/social-housing-bosses-to-be-paid-thousands-per-meeting-whilst-tenants-face-homelessness/ … #*bedroomtax*


----------



## treelover (Feb 10, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...42085003.53666.205005089635405&type=1&theater

We have a new champion in Paul O' Grady, rare to see a conventional celebrity be so outspoken, go Paul...


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...42085003.53666.205005089635405&type=1&theater
> 
> We have a new champion in Paul O' Grady, rare to see a conventional celebrity be so outspoken, go Paul...


I don't think he's ever been a conventional celebrity...he has got a history of strong views on social justice....


----------



## weepiper (Feb 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...42085003.53666.205005089635405&type=1&theater
> 
> We have a new champion in Paul O' Grady, rare to see a conventional celebrity be so outspoken, go Paul...


 
that's from an article in the Independent last year. The whole thing's worth reading. Love him

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/p...name-why-is-paul-ogrady-so-angry-8219085.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?f...42085003.53666.205005089635405&type=1&theater
> 
> We have a new champion in Paul O' Grady, rare to see a conventional celebrity be so outspoken, go Paul...


 
Paul O'Grady's great.  Totally outspoken on child abuse as well


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

http://burdzeyeview.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/bedroom-tax-a-battle-which-should-unite-not-divide/

*Bedroom tax – a battle which should unite not divide*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2013)

The #*bedroomtax* is despicable by @*CaroleAnneJones* http://caroleannejones.wordpress.com/2013/02/10/the-bedroom-tax/ …


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 10, 2013)

It's not just tenants who are affected...

Rent arrears 'threaten housing associations' viability'
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-21381950


----------



## treelover (Feb 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Paul O'Grady's great. Totally outspoken on child abuse as well


 


> *For O'Grady, who is filming a BBC series about the working classes*, the London riots also exposed social injustice
> 
> 
> > This time the BBC may just get it right on the issue of class.


----------



## manny-p (Feb 10, 2013)

Heard him on the radio earlier. Great geezer.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 10, 2013)

He told a lodger of mine, years ago, when he used to still do the Vauxhall Tavern, that I was a great landlady


----------



## BigTom (Feb 12, 2013)

I posted this on the birmingham against the cuts website yesterday, I don't usually post my own articles but one of the twitter responses was so fantastically dumb that I just had to talk about it somewhere and I cba with the whole rt & set your followers on them thing.

http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...ary-housing-payment-fund-blow-for-birmingham/

Headline: Bedroom Tax Discretionary Housing Payment Fund Blow For Birmingham
tl;dr: Council are removing discretionary payments from 600 households whose rent is over the LHA, cutting £1.25m from the DHP - the same fund that the extra £30m touted as being the way exceptional cases can be made good, and likely far more than we'll get from the increase - though because it's targeted at a group that probably aren't in social housing, I don't think it'll affect theoretical extra bedroom tax payments. But cos the bedroom tax extra isn't ringfenced within the DHP it's likely that other councils will also be cutting money from the DHP and may not be targetting it.

The response from someone:



> According to Government rules, there is a fund to allow for extreme cases such as this one. you don't mention it
> I assume it is because you are extremist, and unable to support democracy


 
What, you mean the fund whose name is in the title? 

This is just a troll right? I should just publicly laugh and RT shouldn't I?


----------



## weepiper (Feb 12, 2013)

You're such a _fascist_ BigTom  why do you hate freedom?


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 12, 2013)

I would just respond with can you read plain english??


----------



## BigTom (Feb 12, 2013)

They haven't said anything to me pointing out it was in the title. I haven't looked to see if they've been back online or not. I responded pretty sarcastically about the fund being in the title of the article this morning.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 13, 2013)

_*This is Staffordshire*_



> Tuesday, February 12, 2013
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Feb 13, 2013)

^ These pleading letters I have some sympathy for, but on the other hand there is clearly a "deserving", "undeserving" poor element to a number of them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2013)

BigTom said:


> This is just a troll right? I should just publicly laugh and RT shouldn't I?


 
The idea of the DF is being used a lot as a retort. I sincerely believe those that use it are desparately trying to justify this abhorrance to themselves. THE DF is just that 'discretionary'. It is time limited, means tested and there is a finite amount. So, not gonna save everyone then, not even half those affected will get a look in and those that do will have to wade through treacle repeatedly to get it. Don't take the bait!


----------



## BigTom (Feb 16, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> The idea of the DF is being used a lot as a retort. I sincerely believe those that use it are desparately trying to justify this abhorrance to themselves. THE DF is just that 'discretionary'. It is time limited, means tested and there is a finite amount. So, not gonna save everyone then, not even half those affected will get a look in and those that do will have to wade through treacle repeatedly to get it. Don't take the bait!


 
I know that, it's not that, it's that s/he claimed that I hadn't mentioned it when it's in the title and a third of the article is about it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2013)

BigTom said:


> I know that, it's not that, it's that s/he claimed that I hadn't mentioned it when it's in the title and a third of the article is about it.


 
I know hun, I suppose I was suggesting that they simply retort the 'DF' bollocks regardless!


----------



## audiotech (Feb 18, 2013)

Independent article, in reference to Leeds actions.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 19, 2013)

> How to combat the bedroom tax with a tape measure


 
http://combatbedroomtax.blogspot.co.uk/2013/02/how-to-combat-bedroom-tax-with-tape.html?spref=tw


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

I also read another blog by someone suggesting that having a lodger in a room that's off the living room (and thereby having no direct access to an escape route) could be against H&S regulations, and therefore if you have a room like this, you may not be able to accept a lodger

Can't remember where I found it and can't be arsed to look it up at the moment


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

Ah, just found it, it was actually a comment on someone else's write-up



> Greg Robbins on 11/02/2013 at 10:53 am said:
> One other possible defence which also has ramifications for those seeking to move – some of the old LCC blocks in London have rooms which are only accessible from the living room and not the hallway. Some of our properties are being converted to create a fire exit through the living room (not satisfactory in every case) but in other cases it is generally arguable that the offending room is a ‘dead room’ and should not count as a bed room. Different advice is given by housing officers depending on who they are trying to fob off, of course, but this could be another possible defence. [In our case the advice from the Fire Brigade seems clear that the rooms cannot be let as bedrooms.]


 
http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2013/02/room-without-review-thoughts-on-tackling-the-bedroom-tax/


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

Might be an idea in newer housing?
http://libcom.org/blog/how-combat-bedroom-tax-tape-measure-20022013

Apologies

Bishop's Finger issue....again.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

Over 400,000 disabled people affected by Bedroom Tax

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-new...706?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 21, 2013)

IDS orders a re-think...I remain deeply cynical however.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21541400


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> IDS orders a re-think...I remain deeply cynical however.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21541400


 
Same as


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 21, 2013)

Interesting that the feel it necessary to do this though. The pressure does seem to be building.

My 13 year old daughter is currently writing an open letter to Irritable Duncan Syndrome asking why he thinks she doesn't exist - she stays with me 3 to 4 nights a week in my 2 bed flat and has done for the past seven years, but her room is 'spare' according to the bedroom tax and  I either have to cough up and extra £14 a week or move out and give up joint custody of my daughter as she will be unable to stay with me.

i suspect their are many thousands of people in my position.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 21, 2013)

Crafty and sneaky on their part, offering minor concessions to stifle the potential of any sustained campaign against. Leaving those with imagined porta-studios, avant-garde spaces, reiki treatment rooms, photographic dark rooms and/or hydroponic enthusiasts to fight alone.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 25, 2013)

*Salford Bedroom Tax and Rent Increase Horrors - a true life story of Salford 2013 http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=17063!*


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> IDS orders a re-think...I remain deeply cynical however.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21541400


 
When I saw that foster children were not qualified to get a bedroom I could see that may of been a plant for a future 'compromise'.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> When I saw that foster children were not qualified to get a bedroom I could see that may of been a plant for a future 'compromise'.


 

He's done a U-turn on that supposed rethink anyway


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He's done a U-turn on that supposed rethink anyway


 
A U-turn on a rethink?


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2013)

What London groups are there campaigning against this?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> A U-turn on a rethink?


 
Apparently there is not going to be any rethink

Don't know where the papers got the story from but the same day the story came out, it was denied


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> What London groups are there campaigning against this?


 
I don't know.  Maybe Rutita1 can answer?


----------



## BigTom (Feb 25, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> What London groups are there campaigning against this?


 
try london coalition against poverty www.lcap.org i think


----------



## DrRingDing (Feb 25, 2013)

BigTom said:


> try london coalition against poverty www.lcap.org i think


 
Licking County Aging Program?


----------



## BigTom (Feb 25, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Licking County Aging Program?


 
 www.lcap.org.uk then.. I had a cat on my lap, typing was awkward, lol. Licking County, sounds like a great place to live...


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 25, 2013)

BigTom said:


> www.lcap.org.uk then.. I had a cat on my lap, typing was awkward, lol. Licking County, sounds like a great place to live...


better than here...


/derail


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

on now


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 25, 2013)

Found out today I'm indirectly affected as when I rang my HA on an unrelated matter there's a really long message about this before you get through to anyone. I'm glad that the issue is being referred to but it really adds a lot of time to a call so people without a landline will get their credit rinsed, which is not good.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Found out today I'm indirectly affected as when I rang my HA on an unrelated matter there's a really long message about this before you get through to anyone. I'm glad that the issue is being referred to but it really adds a lot of time to a call so people without a landline will get their credit rinsed, which is not good.


 
Hate it when that happens


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 26, 2013)

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under-occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf
*Housing Benefit: Under occupation of social housing*
*Impact Assessment*
*Updated 28 June 2012*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under-occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf
> *Housing Benefit: Under occupation of social housing*
> *Impact Assessment*
> *Updated 28 June 2012*


 
I don't have the patience to read 20 odd pages


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Feb 26, 2013)

I skim-read bits and on the first page what leapt out was bad English ..also how do people 'float off' Housing benefit? Would 'drown' be a better word?


----------



## weepiper (Feb 26, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I skim-read bits and on the first page what leapt out was bad English ..also how do people 'float off' Housing benefit? Would 'drown' be a better word?


 
It's total bollocks. It doesn't provide an incentive. An incentive is something that encourages the desired behaviour by _offering_ a benefit, not that punishes the undesired behaviour by taking it away.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under-occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf
> *Housing Benefit: Under occupation of social housing*
> *Impact Assessment*
> *Updated 28 June 2012*


 

Had a quick read of that. Its really striking how glibly they deal with the problems that tenants face in 'downsizing'. They only briefly note that social landlords may face additional costs from collecting extra rent from those affected and additional arrears - but the idea of organised resistance, non payment etc isn't remotely on their radar.  Nor do they understand that many of the people affected genuinely need the extra room/s - as far as they are concerned if they are deemed to be 'under occupying'  by their rules then they are in reality and that tenants will simply accept their definitions.


----------



## scifisam (Feb 26, 2013)

I informed by daughter's best friend about this the other day. Apparently her parents didn't know. They have two extra bedrooms which genuinely aren't used for anything else essential - no room needed for a carer, grandkids, anything like that that they could try to argue as an exception. Daughter's BF reckons her Dad "needs" the rooms. When asked why, she said it's because he's fat.  He's not even that fat! He's a pensioner, but his wife is only 50 (and developmentally disabled), so they definitely need HB but are definitely going to lose 25%. No idea what they're going to do.

Daughter's two other best friends' parents are also affected. One of them has three extra bedrooms and is a hoarder. She does work but it doesn't cover all her rent. Moving would be a really good thing for her anyway, to make her get rid of some of her stuff, but that's why she won't do it - plus it's been her home for 40 years. I think she'll probably be able to just about manage.

The other friend's Mum has three bedrooms and two daughters but might be able to argue that they were moved only a year or so ago from a 2-bed into a 3-bed due to her daughter's disability (which is the reason the Mum's on HB), so she shouldn't be penalised. If the HA have said you're entitled to three bedrooms, and you have three bedrooms, then that should be the end of it. Not that anyone should have to argue any cases at all.

Bizarrely, with all these spare bedrooms and non-working parents, it's always my place that's used for sleepovers.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

Anyone watching Parliamentary debate?


----------



## toggle (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone watching Parliamentary debate?


 
i spend long enough reading them from the 19th century* that i tend to aviod them from now. their attitude towards the poor is depressingly similar.

*I've got 25000 or so pages of pdfs of debates to read to start off with. i'll need to go through more to confirm voting records


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

toggle said:


> i spend long enough reading them from the 19th century* that i tend to aviod them from now. their attitude towards the poor is depressingly similar.
> 
> *I've got 25000 or so pages of pdfs of debates to read


 
Why on earth are you doing that?

I used to have to hunt them down on Hansard and print them out


----------



## toggle (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why on earth are you doing that?
> 
> I used to have to hunt them down on Hansard and print them out


 
part of a masters on a particular section of late victorian/early 20th century politics.

i got them off hansard, search and i will find every debate an mp took part in, open them all up in firefox tabs, then use a neat little addon that turns all those tabs into a single pdf.

having them saved means i can far more easily keep trtack of what I've been through and print off copies of anyhting really interesting.


----------



## toggle (Feb 27, 2013)

more to the point, it's here's the new shit, same as the old shit.

how far off the gutter are you allowed to be before you're supposed to be able to pull yourself up by the bootstraps.

are you deserving?


----------



## xsunnysuex (Feb 27, 2013)

I think this bloody bedroom tax is going to affect me 
My daughter is off next month to spend time with her cousin in Australia.   She's going to be there for anything from a few months to a year. 
Even though she's only going for a short time I still have to pay it seems.  This is bloody crazy.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> I think this bloody bedroom tax is going to affect me
> My daughter is off next month to spend time with her cousin in Australia. She's going to be there for anything from a few months to a year.
> Even though she's only going for a short time I still have to pay it seems. This is bloody crazy.


 
Are you sure?


----------



## xsunnysuex (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you sure?


 
Not for definite I don't. But I posted on a thread on a benefit forum board, and everyone there said I would have to pay. They compared my situation with people with children away serving in Afghanistan who will have to pay.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)




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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

and yet you'd be exempt if your daughter was in prison


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

That Jane Ellison is a right bitch


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## prunus (Feb 27, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/social-sector-housing-under-occupation-wr2011-ia.pdf
> *Housing Benefit: Under occupation of social housing*
> *Impact Assessment*
> *Updated 28 June 2012*


 
This is going to be a shitstorm disaster.  That impact assessment is mightily flawed.  I predict the most likely outcome is going to be a combination of increased poverty *and* increased housing benefit costs.

The massive massive problem that there isn't suitable sized accomodation to move to is mentioned, but only glanced at with a 'in some cases tenants may have to look further afield' (leaving aside the whole bloody evil of forcing people to leave where they live, friends, schools, support network, *jobs* *ffs*, etc), just look at this table (from the same impact assessment):



So further afield where exactly? Assuming everybody distributes right across the country (unrealisic as that is) and occupies as close to their 'needs' as possible, that leaves:

240,000 people in 2 bed 1 over entitlement
250,000 people in 3 bed 1 over entitlement

So 490,000 people still 'over-occupying'.  Which is such a massive reduction from the current 660,000 (from the assessment).  To stop 'over-occupation' these people will have to move to the private rented sector.  Which is ~3x the price of social.  And will still need to be covered by housing benefit.

The idea that people will just 'move into work' or 'increase their working hours' (the suggestions in the assessment to ameliorate the cost of the tax) is just insulting.  There is no more work, as everyone knows.

This is fucked.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

Heather Wheeler - _Why can't people take in lodgers?  They did years ago._  Or words to that effect.  Yeah, well people lived in slums years ago, doesn't mean they liked it.

John Redwood - _The Germans redesigned our housing stock.  _Explaining why more houses were built years ago because they were needed.  I wonder if as many as 1.5m people after the war had second homes?


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## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> I think this bloody bedroom tax is going to affect me
> My daughter is off next month to spend time with her cousin in Australia. She's going to be there for anything from a few months to a year.
> Even though she's only going for a short time I still have to pay it seems. This is bloody crazy.


How would they know though?


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

i was speaking   to a tenant yesterday who is now in a 5 bed on her own, contacted our underoccupation team and they are helping  her bid for a smaller flat, but they told me she won't be affected  by the bedroom tax as  she is over 65. She will also get £££££s under an incentive scheme to trade down to a smaller flat.


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## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> i was speaking to a tenant yesterday who is now in a 5 bed on her own, contacted our underoccupation team and they are helping her bid for a smaller flat, but they told me she won't be affected by the bedroom tax as she is over 65. She will also get £££££s under an incentive scheme to trade down to a smaller flat.


This is what they should be doing for everyone. Not insisting that families crowd together in smaller houses.


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## Libertad (Feb 27, 2013)

40% of housing stock in Cornwall are second homes. Squat anyone?


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## scifisam (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> i was speaking   to a tenant yesterday who is now in a 5 bed on her own, contacted our underoccupation team and they are helping  her bid for a smaller flat, but they told me she won't be affected  by the bedroom tax as  she is over 65. She will also get £££££s under an incentive scheme to trade down to a smaller flat.



The incentive scheme is why I don't understand why one of my daughter's friend's parents haven't already moved. They'd get given tons of money and help, and completely free choice of where to move to - no being forced into gardenless flats. They would even, previously, be allowed to move into somewhere with one bedroom more than their official entitlement, if they were still freeing up a bedroom. 

From a practical POV I simply don't understand why they've never moved.

But I still don't want their benefits stripped because of this new rule.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> i was speaking to a tenant yesterday who is now in a 5 bed on her own, contacted our underoccupation team and they are helping her bid for a smaller flat, but they told me she won't be affected by the bedroom tax as she is over 65. She will also get £££££s under an incentive scheme to trade down to a smaller flat.


 
Well financial incentives should be offered.  People will want to redecorate, recarpet, pay removal costs, buy new furniture etc.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

scifisam said:


> The incentive scheme is why I don't understand why one of my daughter's friend's parents haven't already moved. They'd get given tons of money and help, and completely free choice of where to move to - no being forced into gardenless flats. They would even, previously, be allowed to move into somewhere with one bedroom more than their official entitlement, if they were still freeing up a bedroom.
> 
> From a practical POV I simply don't understand why they've never moved.
> 
> But I still don't want their benefits stripped because of this new rule.


 
Maybe they've lived there years and and are settled and know their neighbours and friends are nearby?


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

financial incentives  have ime been offered for many years, not just because of the bedroom tax


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> financial incentives have ime been offered for many years, not just because of the bedroom tax


 
Yeah, I realise that as well


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they've lived there years and and are settled and know their neighbours and friends are nearby?


in my tenant's case, she doesn't appear to have a big support network nearby, English isn't her first language, and she told me her sons were too busy to help  her bid for a new home.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> in my tenant's case, she doesn't appear to have a big support network nearby, English isn't her first language, and she told me her sons were too busy to help her bid for a new home.


 
Sounds like she's happy enough to move with a bit of support then


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Heather Wheeler - _Why can't people take in lodgers? They did years ago._ Or words to that effect. Yeah, well people lived in slums years ago, doesn't mean they liked it.


 
Its also ignores the fact that in a huge number of cases these 'extra' bedrooms are being used.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> How would they know though?


 
Because she will have to sign off JSA.  They will tell housing benefit,  and so on.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Its also ignore the fact that in a huge number of cases these 'extra' bedroom are being used.


 
I know.   The whole thing is a total shambles


----------



## scifisam (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they've lived there years and and are settled and know their neighbours and friends are nearby?



They've only been in that particular house for eight years or so.

My HA offers 10k per room you give up plus removal costs, or at least they used to. And you have no limit to the number of places you can turn down, so you can stay in your own area if you want to. And you're given priority when choosing a place. 

Moving is a hassle, but costs paid and several thousand quid? I'd take it. Perhaps they have their reasons, or perhaps it's just inertia. I'm terrible about getting round to doing sensible things that would benefit me, unless I really have to, and maybe that's all it is for them.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> This is what they should be doing for everyone. Not insisting that families crowd together in smaller houses.


there aren't enough flats to move everyone in larger ones into smaller ones


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

scifisam said:


> They've only been in that particular house for eight years or so.
> 
> My HA offers 10k per room you give up plus removal costs, or at least they used to. And you have no limit to the number of places you can turn down, so you can stay in your own area if you want to. And you're given priority when choosing a place.
> 
> Moving is a hassle, but costs paid and several thousand quid? I'd take it. Perhaps they have their reasons, or perhaps it's just inertia. I'm terrible about getting round to doing sensible things that would benefit me, unless I really have to, and maybe that's all it is for them.


 
£10K?!   

I bet they don't any more.  

I'm sure Lambeth used to offer more, but last I heard, they're offering £1k per room.  Doesn't cover much if you want to redecorate, recarpet, need to buy new furniture etc.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> What London groups are there campaigning against this?


 
Just came across this

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/02/announcing-details-of-25-bedroomtax.html


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 27, 2013)

scifisam said:


> My HA offers 10k per room you give up plus removal costs, or at least they used to.


 
My LA have never offered anything like that. And they simply don't have one bedroom places rurally. I'm NOT moving back into town. I'm not 100% sure but I think we'd also lose the RTB and our secure tenancy if we moved now. Not happening!!
What I don't have to spend on electric(if we moved) is going to have to cover our BT


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## Jackobi (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> financial incentives have ime been offered for many years, not just because of the bedroom tax


 
Many tenants are not offered incentives, that support is exclusive to local housing policies (as if I need to tell you, but wanted to highlight).
It would be interesting to collate the figures, I'd suggest that most tenants are not offered any.


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## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> there aren't enough flats to move everyone in larger ones into smaller ones



Yeah I know but you'd hope someone with a 5 bed would go to the top of any transfer list!

Nearly all the single person accom in leeds council is reserved for older people and or with disabilities!


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> £10K?!
> 
> I bet they don't any more.
> 
> I'm sure Lambeth used to offer more, but last I heard, they're offering £1k per room.  Doesn't cover much if you want to redecorate, recarpet, need to buy new furniture etc.



When I first became a Leeds council tenant 12 yrs ago (people do less for murder etc) they used to give vouchers for decorating but last move 8 yrs ago nothing, I imagine the next move you'll have to pay the council to be allowed to leave!


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> Many tenants are not offered incentives, that support is exclusive to local housing policies (as if I need to tell you, but wanted to highlight).
> It would be interesting to collate the figures, I'd suggest that most tenants are not offered any.


 
It does vary, had a look about, Camden offer up to £25,000 depending on how many rooms you give up, Westminster offer £3000 per room, Waltham Forest offer about £2,000 flat offer, Lambeth £1000 a room, most of the Housing Associations I worked for in London had similar schemes - it would take too long to look them all up


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> When I first became a Leeds council tenant 12 yrs ago (people do less for murder etc) they used to give vouchers for decorating but last move 8 yrs ago nothing, I imagine the next move you'll have to pay the council to be allowed to leave!


we offer decs vouchers in London - not much though - was more generous before the cuts - now it's about £100


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Yeah I know but you'd hope someone with a 5 bed would go to the top of any transfer list!
> 
> Nearly all the single person accom in leeds council is reserved for older people and or with disabilities!


I checked - she has zillions of points for a 2 bed


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> When I first became a Leeds council tenant 12 yrs ago (people do less for murder etc) they used to give vouchers for decorating but last move 8 yrs ago nothing, I imagine the next move you'll have to pay the council to be allowed to leave!


 
Well I know certain housing trust that allow you to redecorate once every 7 years but the money they give you only really covers the materials, so if you're elderly or have physical difficulties, it ain't gonna cover cost of decorator to do it


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> It does vary, had a look about, Camden offer up to £25,000 depending on how many rooms you give up, Westminster offer £3000 per room, Waltham Forest offer about £2,000 flat offer, Lambeth £1000 a room, most of the Housing Associations I worked for in London had similar schemes - it would take too long to look them all up


 
Huge difference between councils.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> we offer decs vouchers in London - not much though - was more generous before the cuts - now it's about £100


 
£100 for a room or the whole house?


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

Think HAs are diff from councils. You get nothing here and are lucky if they come and repair your house before it crumbles into dust.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Think HAs are diff from councils. You get nothing here and are lucky if they come and repair your house before it crumbles into dust.


 
Councils in London used to decorate.  Lambeth stopped doing it decades ago


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> £100 for a room or the whole house?


IIRC £100 is for a studio, it goes up to about £200 for a whole house - it isn't very generous #austerity


----------



## marty21 (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Councils in London used to decorate. Lambeth stopped doing it decades ago


It's a difficult one - I show council flats, and if they aren't decorated they are more difficult to let - sometimes it takes several viewings to let an undecorated one - you lose less rent if you can let them quicker. That said, flats are viewed as soon as possible after a tenant moves out, often before works take place.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> It's a difficult one - I show council flats, and if they aren't decorated they are more difficult to let - sometimes it takes several viewings to let an undecorated one - you lose less rent if you can let them quicker. That said, flats are viewed as soon as possible after a tenant moves out, often before works take place.


 
Oh yeah, what I meant was they don't decorate whilst anyone's resident nowadays, only when someone leaves the property (although I'm not sure they all do that nowadays either).   All work differently obviously


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh yeah, what I meant was they don't decorate whilst anyone's resident nowadays, only when someone leaves the property (although I'm not sure they all do that nowadays either).   All work differently obviously



Redecorate? Someone ought to tell Leeds the basically gut the place b4 they let it out. Their motto seems to be burn everything!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 27, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Redecorate? Someone ought to tell Leeds the basically gut the place b4 they let it out. Their motto seems to be burn everything!


 
Maybe they think council tenants all have fleas


----------



## Voley (Feb 27, 2013)

Another really fucking tough conversation at work today with a woman who has an extra room but no real prospects of moving. Conversation ended with her on the verge of tears imploring me to help and I couldn't. When she asked who to complain to I gave her our local MP's details in the end.

This is only going to get worse in the coming months. I'm only hearing from the people who've realised this is a problem right now. There will be plenty of people out there who haven't appreciated the gravity of this yet. Come April I'm expecting loads of calls from distraught people who've suddenly found out their rent's 14% to 25% more expensive. This is going to get really fucking grim.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

NVP said:


> Another really fucking tough conversation at work today with a woman who has an extra room but no real prospects of moving. Conversation ended with her on the verge of tears imploring me to help and I couldn't. When she asked who to complain to I gave her our local MP's details in the end.
> 
> This is only going to get worse in the coming months. I'm only hearing from the people who've realised this is a problem right now. There will be plenty of people out there who haven't appreciated the gravity of this yet. Come April I'm expecting loads of calls from distraught people who've suddenly found out their rent's 14% to 25% more expensive. This is going to get really fucking grim.


 
Advise them to stay calm, stay put and contact whatever local groups are fighting the bedroom tax. RSLs will not be able to afford to evict people for rent arrears if their is co-ordinated resistance.  Each eviction costs several thousands of pounds to enact and then their is a very good chance that the judge will throw it out.


----------



## Voley (Feb 28, 2013)

I work for the RSL. I'm fucked if I advise people not to pay their rent.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

NVP said:


> I work for the RSL. I'm fucked if I advise people not to pay their rent.


 
But that is the best way to stop the bedroom tax. And its more of a case of cant pay then wont pay. The campaigns are about supporting people in this situation and helping people keep their homes.

The RSLs need  to be telling the government very loudly that this policy is unworkable and destructive.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 28, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they think council tenants all have fleas


No actually that is it. They "have" to remove everything for 'health and safety'. Up to and including no electricity/ electric fuse it seems.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> But that is the best way to stop the bedroom tax. And its more of a case of cant pay then wont pay. The campaigns are about supporting people in this situation and helping people keep their homes.
> 
> The RSLs need to be telling the government very loudly that this policy is unworkable and destructive.


That's going to be hard because councils are now really really on the case of anyone who doesn't pay even by thirty seconds.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> That's going to be hard because councils are now really really on the case of anyone who doesn't pay even by thirty seconds.


 
But ultimately all they can do is carry out very expensive eviction procedures - but with the numbers of people involved this not going to be a viable option for RSLs - thats why people need to come together and support each other.


----------



## weepiper (Feb 28, 2013)

Good graphic showing the ridiculousness of claims that this is going to save the government/taxpayer money from Shelter Scotland







http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/get_involved/campaigning/bedroom_tax


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## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> But that is the best way to stop the bedroom tax. And its more of a case of cant pay then wont pay. The campaigns are about supporting people in this situation and helping people keep their homes.
> 
> The RSLs need to be telling the government very loudly that this policy is unworkable and destructive.


 easy to say that when you don't work in social housing -

I think the RSLs are making protests but on to dead ears

On top of the bedroom tax is the council tax - previously those on full benefit didn't have to pay the charge - not they will be paying about a fiver a week - of course they won't pay and it won't be viable to collect this charge for Local Authorites who will have to swallow another backdoor cut in funding -


----------



## Voley (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> But that is the best way to stop the bedroom tax. And its more of a case of cant pay then wont pay. The campaigns are about supporting people in this situation and helping people keep their homes.
> 
> The RSLs need to be telling the government very loudly that this policy is unworkable and destructive.


I don't disagree. But if my boss listens into a call where I've advised someone not to pay their rent, I'm looking at being back on the dole and claiming HB myself. It's taken me two years of shit temp jobs to get this permanent one. Not an option for me I'm afraid.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

NVP said:


> I don't disagree. But if my boss listens into a call where I've advised someone not to pay their rent, I'm looking at being back on the dole and claiming HB myself. It's taken me two years of shit temp jobs to get this permanent one. Not an option for me I'm afraid.


 
Fair enough. Ive worked in housing myself. Keep us posted what position the RSLs are taking - particularly WRT  evictions and arrears as a result of the bedroom tax.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> But ultimately all they can do is carry out very expensive eviction procedures - but with the numbers of people involved this not going to be a viable option for RSLs - thats why people need to come together and support each other.


I expect they'll just do that then, councils don't see sense, it's the same with everything like repairs, don't do a little job quickly and let it fester into a huge problem.


----------



## Voley (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Fair enough. Ive worked in housing myself. Keep us posted what position the RSLs are taking - particularly WRT evictions and arrears as a result of the bedroom tax.


Well where I work the staff are pretty conservative but a decent proportion of them are seeing how unworkable this is now. I doubt there'd be much support for actively campaigning against it, but there are the first murmurings of people seeing that things are going from bad to worse. Management? Well ours have been pretty good at getting info out to tenants about how they might be affected and we've been briefed quite well to give people as much advice as we can but there doesn't seem to be much stomach for arguing with the government about the legislation per se. Being cynical/realistic about this, the main driver in actively informing tenants of the changes is a very real concern about the drop in rent revenue.


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 28, 2013)

this bit sticks out like a sore thumb



> One local Labour councillor, turned up at the meeting, Alison Lowe. She started speaking by declaring that ‘the Labour group is totally opposed to this policy’, yet when later challenged as to why, if they are opposed to it, they don’t refuse to evict those who don’t pay and write off their rent arrears?
> However, when confronted with this she replied that she has to represent all the interests of the 751,000 residents in Leeds – as if the only option was to move these cuts to hammer another service even more. Instead Cllr Lowe and the other Leeds councillors should take a leaf from the book of the Southampton anti-cuts councillors who have sought to oppose all cuts and build a mass movement in their city to do so. However, Cllr Lowe’s track record is such that we should hardly expect this.


 
http://leedssocialistparty.wordpress.com/2013/02/15/50-pack-out-armley-meeting-against-bedroom-tax/

fwiw, the council passed their £55m budget cuts yesterday, and approved increasing council housing rents.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> this bit sticks out like a sore thumb
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Allison Lowe eh? Yeah I've come accross her before. Not surprised - mealy mouthed careerist. Shes also CE of touchstone who provide supported housing for  people with mental health issues - so she has a vested interest.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 28, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> I expect they'll just do that then, councils don't see sense, it's the same with everything like repairs, don't do a little job quickly and let it fester into a huge problem.


 
Thats why the campaings need to be visible and noisy so that RSOs have no choice. Are you in touch with people in your part of leeds? Get in touch with http://handsoffourhomes.org.uk/

What part of leeds are you in?


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 28, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Allison Lowe eh? Yeah I've come accross her before. Not surprised - mealy mouthed careerist. Shes also CE of touchstone who provide supported housing for  people with mental health issues - so she has a vested interest.


they also provide tenancy/floating support for people with mh issues, who aren't in the service's accommodation,  many of whom are being hit by all this.


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## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

RSL? Register of Social Landlords?


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## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

Libertad said:


> RSL? Register of Social Landlords?


 Registered Social Landlord , I think


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## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Registered Social Landlord , I think


 
Thank you kindly.


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## audiotech (Feb 28, 2013)

Alison Lowe has received some flack from fascists in the past. Ms Lowe will be following the Labour party line on this, whatever this might be?


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## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

NVP said:


> Well where I work the staff are pretty conservative but a decent proportion of them are seeing how unworkable this is now. I doubt there'd be much support for actively campaigning against it, but there are the first murmurings of people seeing that things are going from bad to worse. Management? Well ours have been pretty good at getting info out to tenants about how they might be affected and we've been briefed quite well to give people as much advice as we can but there doesn't seem to be much stomach for arguing with the government about the legislation per se. Being cynical/realistic about this, the main driver in actively informing tenants of the changes is a very real concern about the drop in rent revenue.


 This will take a few months to hit the headlines - but as arrears increase because tenants can't pay the bedroom tax and the council tax - thenotices will be served - the court applications will go in - possession hearings, warrants applied for, stay application hearings, etc - unless a tenant is already in arrears and has been through the legal system, evictions caused by the bedroom tax are unlikely to happen within the next 3 months - when they start there will probably be a flood of them - overwhelming the courts and the bailiffs - that is when action will probably take place - maybe similar to the poll tax protests in Scotland in the late 80s early 90s  when they organised large numbers of people to block access for the bailiffs. I know bailiffs, they will back off if there is any remote chance of a protest - that will further clog up the legal system as tenants apply to have eviction orders put aside, and attract media attention hopefully.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 28, 2013)

I hope this will be like another Poll Tax protest and prompt a u-turn - it will take widespread protests to do that - and like NVP says - housing staff who deal with these things have to be concerned about their jobs - we can't actively advise tenants not to pay their rents - if we did we could lose our jobs


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I hope this will be like another Poll Tax protest and prompt a u-turn - it will take widespread protests to do that - and like NVP says - housing staff who deal with these things have to be concerned about their jobs - we can't actively advise tenants not to pay their rents - if we did we could lose our jobs


 
Not a great position to be in. Good luck to both of you.


----------



## treelover (Feb 28, 2013)

NVP said:


> Another really fucking tough conversation at work today with a woman who has an extra room but no real prospects of moving. Conversation ended with her on the verge of tears imploring me to help and I couldn't. When she asked who to complain to I gave her our local MP's details in the end.
> 
> This is only going to get worse in the coming months. I'm only hearing from the people who've realised this is a problem right now. There will be plenty of people out there who haven't appreciated the gravity of this yet. Come April I'm expecting loads of calls from distraught people who've suddenly found out their rent's 14% to 25% more expensive. This is going to get really fucking grim.


 

This is exactly what happened with removal of IB and intro of ESA, ATOS, etc, people didn't know what was happening, put their head in the sand(understandably) until it was too late, now there is poverty misery and suicides, good to see well over a thousand in Bootle today against the bedroom tax, hopefully it will escalate...

its not just the B/T, people are going to have to pay upto 20% of council tax regardless of circumstances...n


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 28, 2013)

cheers audiotech, i didn't know that. and fair point.
edit ('cause i'm having an editty sort of evening) - i'd still prefer to see her name in this context, rather than a 'voting cuts through' context /edit


not sure if there's already been one posted, but there's a bedroom tax calculator here: http://www.lyha.co.uk/bedroom_tax_calculator.asp?sid=3


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## audiotech (Mar 1, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> cheers audiotech, i didn't know that. and fair point.
> edit ('cause i'm having an editty sort of evening) - i'd still prefer to see her name in this context, rather than a 'voting cuts through' context /edit


 
Don't get me wrong, as Labour party loyalists go it's very unlikely the particular councilor mentioned will be stepping out of line.


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> This is exactly what happened with removal of IB and intro of ESA, ATOS, etc, people didn't know what was happening, put their head in the sand(understandably) until it was too late, now there is poverty misery and suicides, good to see well over a thousand in Bootle today against the bedroom tax, hopefully it will escalate...
> 
> its not just the B/T, people are going to have to pay upto 20% of council tax regardless of circumstances...n


Being fair its not totally devoid of circumstance there are still some exemptions but they vary from council to council


----------



## audiotech (Mar 1, 2013)

According to a Leeds Councillor, with figures published in the Tenants Federation magazine I received today, there will be just 7,000 affected in this City, so I can't see the campaign here gathering much momentum to be honest? Don't know about the rest of the country? It's obvious that the tories have learned from the poll tax and are avoiding targeting large sections of the population, as with the poll tax that affected millions.


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 1, 2013)

audiotech said:


> According to a Leeds Councillor, with figures published in the Tenants Federation magazine I received today, there will be just 7,000 affected in this City, so I can't see the campaign here gathering much momentum to be honest? Don't know about the rest of the country? It's obvious that the tories have learned from the poll tax and are avoiding targeting large sections of the population, as with the poll tax that affected millions.


Heh I just been looking at mine today!
They've picked groups that the mainstream media generally demonise too.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 1, 2013)

Indeed, they've managed consent very craftily and, at this point in the game, of winning the argument.


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## BigTom (Mar 3, 2013)

60,000 families in West Mids to be affected: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...1715223?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

comments on the Birmingham Mail tend to be pretty right wing (seems now you have to comment using your facebook ID which I'm not willing to) but they are doing a facebook poll over the weekend which is currently 90% against the bedroom tax


----------



## weepiper (Mar 3, 2013)

Just been reading my council (Edinburgh)'s report on what they're doing to mitigate the impact of the various 'welfare reforms'... It contains the depressing statistic that they have fifteen thousand single people or couples registered on their housing list, yet are only in a position to let five _hundred_ one bedroom flats a year.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 6, 2013)

This is an interesting one

Woman with 6' 5" son.

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/...smaller-home-criticises-bedroom-tax-1-4854979

I'm having visions of him sharing a bunk bed in a tiny box room with his brother

Would be funny if it wasn't so ridiculous


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

#BedroomSnatcher Cameron's lastest lies in parliment exposed:



> *David Cameron defended the policy in the House of Commons, saying some of the most vulnerable groups of people will be exempt from the cut. Is he right about that?*
> *
> 
> “Pensioners are exempt.”*
> ...


 
http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-slips-up-on-bedroom-tax/12962


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*Grahame Morris MP speaks out about the #BedroomTax*

*Government’s Bedroom Tax to hit 1,611 households in East Durham.*

*http://grahamemorrismp.co.uk/?p=1764*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*More than 2,300 Coventry families to be hit by 'bedroom tax'*




Read More http://www.coventrytelegraph.net/news/coventry-news/2012/10/13/more-than-2-300-coventry-families-to-be-hit-by-bedroom-tax-92746-32022065/#ixzz2Mq8cDnbn​


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*Bedroom tax to hit 60,000 across West Midlands*

*Around 60,000 people across the West Midlands are likely to lose between £500 and £1,000 a year under controversial housing benefits reforms, a charity has said.*
*http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013/03/06/bedroom-tax-to-hit-60000-across-west-midlands/*


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*‘Bedroom tax’ support fund £100m short, says NHF*
By Vivienne Russell | 4 March 2013
The discretionary fund set up to help people pay their rent once the ‘bedroom tax’ is imposed next month is more than £100m short of what is needed, according to the National Housing Federation.
http://www.publicfinance.co.uk/news/2013/03/bedroom-tax-support-fund-100m-short-says-nhf/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*IDS gets 14 days to save bedroom tax from judicial review*

http://www.24dash.com/news/central_...ays-to-save-bedroom-tax-from-judicial-reviewi


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*80,000 in Yorkshire and Northern Lincolnshire "affected by bedroom tax"*

http://www.itv.com/news/calendar/20...orthern-lincolnshire-affected-by-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*Manchester and Salford to be hit hardest by bedroom tax http://bit.ly/106qj6m via @MENnewsdesk*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

East Anglia: #*Bedroomtax* backlash begins as figures revealed http://www.eadt.co.uk:80/news/politics/east_anglia_bedroom_tax_backlash_begins_as_figures_revealed_1_1968230eadt.co.uk/news/politics/ …


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*Tuesday*

*How many #BedroomTax Victims are there in your constituency? National Rankings Here;*

http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/how-many-bedroomtax-victims-are-there.html


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

We have asked Eoin to do a comparsion post/blog showing the numbers affected by area Vs the number of properties available to downsize to by area etc.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*WINSTONSMITH1984 * ‏@*winsonsmith1984* 
Read the bog, our last day at home thanks to the bedroom tax, http://www.theworldofwinstonsmith.wordpress.com


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 7, 2013)

BigTom said:


> 60,000 families in West Mids to be affected: http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...1715223?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> comments on the Birmingham Mail tend to be pretty right wing (seems now you have to comment using your facebook ID which I'm not willing to) but they are doing a facebook poll over the weekend which is currently 90% against the bedroom tax


 
It's going to force victims of DV to stay within violent relationships, too, as even if they can get to refuge, the issue then is that they might be rehoused into a property with a spare bedroom and won't be able to afford the rent.  Not to undermine men who experience DV, but this will without doubt disproportionately affect women.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Tuesday*
> 
> *How many #BedroomTax Victims are there in your constituency? National Rankings Here;*
> 
> http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/how-many-bedroomtax-victims-are-there.html


 
I'm glad someone's finally decided to put up the true figures taking into account areas that have higher rents.  All you see is the £700(ish) figure bandied about, whereas there's plenty of people that are going to be paying more than that.

The London figures were put up somewhere yesterday.  Will dig them them out


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

*'Bedroom tax will affect 80,000' Londoner'*

*The Department for Work and Pensions said there were 380,300 households on social housing waiting lists in London, and that there were 88,000 overcrowded homes in the private sector and 126,000 overcrowded homes in the social sector.*

*Number of people affected*


Southwark: 5,507
Lambeth: 5,012
Hackney: 4,579
Tower Hamlets: 4,514
Greenwich: 3,914
Lewisham: 3,856
Islington: 3,814
Newham: 3,144
Camden: 2,959
Croydon: 2,908
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-21668581


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *WINSTONSMITH1984 * ‏@*winsonsmith1984*
> Read the bog, our last day at home thanks to the bedroom tax, http://www.theworldofwinstonsmith.wordpress.com


Thing is 


> They will conclude as I have that the laws they created were aimed at the poorest of society in order to make the rich, richer.


Kicking disabled or poor people out of their homes doesn't get the rich any richer, in all probability it actually puts a strain on council tax payers as they fund more expensive private lets.. It's entirely spiteful and that is all.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 7, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Thing is
> 
> Kicking disabled or poor people out of their homes doesn't get the rich any richer


 
It does if you have an extensive buy-to-let portfolio as many MPs/councillors/other politico types do


----------



## scifisam (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> #BedroomSnatcher Cameron's lastest lies in parliment exposed:
> 
> 
> 
> http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-cameron-slips-up-on-bedroom-tax/12962


 
I thought pensioners were only exempt if both of a couple were pensioners?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I thought pensioners were only exempt if both of a couple were pensioners?


 


> The DWP last week stated that mixed-age couples, where one is under and one over pension credit age, will be hit by the bedroom tax when it is rolled into the new universal credit from October if they are currently claiming benefits.
> 
> However the department this week backtracked and said it will ensure existing mixed-age claimants, of which the Chartered Institute of Housing calculates there are 67,000, are fully protected from having to pay the tax. A DWP press officer said its previous statement had been inaccurate. He put this down to ‘crossed wires’ and apologised for being misleading.


 
However



> Thousands of new, older claimants - pensioners who are in ‘mixed-age’ couples claiming benefits for the first time under universal credit - will, however, still be hit by the penalty. They will have to wait until both reach pension age to be exempt from the bedroom tax.


 
and



> There is also confusion over how mixed-age couples whose circumstances change will be affected. A DWP spokesperson said the department will publish more detail on this shortly.
> 
> Under the bedroom tax social housing households with spare rooms will have their benefit reduced from 1 April. The policy is expected to affect 660,000 households, who will lose an average of £12 per week from their benefit if they have one spare room and £22 if they have two or more, according to DWP estimates.
> 
> A spokesperson for the DWP said: ‘We want to reassure pensioners that they will not be affected by this policy now, or when moving from housing benefit onto universal credit, even if one partner is below pension age.’


 
All very confusing

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...acks-on-pensioner-bedroom-tax/6525843.article

and



> A DWP spokesman said: "We want to reassure pensioners claiming housing benefit that they will not be affected by this policy now, or when Universal Credit begins, even if one partner is below pension age."
> 
> He confirmed however that this would not apply to new claimants after that time.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 7, 2013)

Ah, looks like B's parents get to keep their five-bedroom house for three people then, because one of them is over 65. A's Mum will still lose out though, even though they actually do need the rooms and were given the "extra" bedroom due to A's disability.  Maybe A's Mum should marry a pensioner.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Ah, looks like B's parents get to keep their five-bedroom house for three people then, because one of them is over 65. A's Mum will still lose out though, even though they actually do need the rooms and were given the "extra" bedroom due to A's disability.  Maybe A's Mum should marry a pensioner.


 
Joke innit

and people who may be a couple of months away from pension age etc. are going to be mightily pissed off when they lose out


----------



## marty21 (Mar 7, 2013)

I might have mentioned this already - but I have a pensioner in a 5 bed house on her own - her adult children recently moved away - she is exempt from the bedroom tax - there is a department within the council who is working with her to move her to a 2 bed (where she will also be exempt) so her house can be re-let to a large family


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*3,297 homes hit with #BedroomTax in David Cameron's county but guess what? 6,414 homes lie empty in the same area. *

*http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/an-analysis-of-bedroom-tax-in-david.html …*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I might have mentioned this already - but I have a pensioner in a 5 bed house on her own - her adult children recently moved away - she is exempt from the bedroom tax - there is a department within the council who is working with her to move her to a 2 bed (where she will also be exempt) so her house can be re-let to a large family


 
You did, and fair play to her if she wants to move and they can find her something, but does she want to stay local and are they finding it easy to find something for her? 

Other people would say, well why does she want a 2-bedroom flat if she's on her own.  Probably the same reason anyone wants a spare room, for visitors/family etc. but oh no, some people think that's a luxury


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *3,297 homes hit with #BedroomTax in David Cameron's county but guess what? 6,414 homes lie empty in the same area. *
> 
> *http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/03/an-analysis-of-bedroom-tax-in-david.html …*


 

I read earlier there's almost 1 million homes sitting empty.  Probably all owned by people hoping their value will go up


----------



## marty21 (Mar 7, 2013)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...ls-for-changes-to-bedroom-tax/6526073.article


> IDS's think tank calls for changes to bedroom tax


 


> The boss of the think tank set up by work and pensions secretary Iain Duncan Smith has called for changes to the government’s controversial ‘bedroom tax’.
> In a move that is likely to cause embarrassment to Mr Duncan Smith, the managing director of the Centre for Social Justice, Christian Guy, has said that he would like to see the government’s under-occupation penalty altered so that it is fairer.
> Speaking at the National Housing Federation’s leadership forum last week Mr Guy told delegates from the housing sector he thought people should only have to pay the penalty if they had turned down a suitable downsizing offer.


 
possibly the beginning of a u-turn?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

*Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords  *

by Lencarl Pro   @ 2013-03-05  – 14:46:03
Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords

The son of a former Tory Housing Minister and Mrs Thatcher aide during the peak years of right-to-buy owns at least 40 ex-council property

The multi-millionaire son of a Tory minister who presided over the controversial “right-to -buy” scheme is a buy-to-let landlord owning scores of former council flats.

A Daily Mirror investigation found a third of ex-council homes sold in the 1980s under Margaret Thatcher were now owned by private landlords.
In one London borough almost half of ex-council properties are now sub-let to tenants.

Tycoon Charles Gow and his wife own at least 40 ex-council flats on one South London estate.
His father Ian Gow was one of Mrs Thatcher’s top aides and was Housing Minister during the peak years of right-to-buy.

http://lencarl.blog.co.uk/2013/03/0...l-homes-now-owned-by-rich-landlords-15594015/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...ls-for-changes-to-bedroom-tax/6526073.article
> 
> 
> 
> possibly the beginning of a u-turn?


 
Probably the same thinktank/advisers that told him to go ahead with it because they all thought they could get away with it!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords *
> 
> by Lencarl Pro @ 2013-03-05 – 14:46:03
> Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords
> ...


 
Ah!  I was looking for that story earlier as I heard it mentioned in yesterday's debate!


----------



## marty21 (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Probably the same thinktank/advisers that told him to go ahead with it because they all thought they could get away with it!


yep, definitely, it is the think tank he started in 2004 after getting 'concerned' about poor folk - like some sort of Victorian


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...ls-for-changes-to-bedroom-tax/6526073.article
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
hm 

Ignoring that for a minute, the thing a lot of people don't seem to realise is that although not everyone may sleep in their 2nd or 3rd bedrooms, a lot of 1 bedroom flats are very small and have no storage etc. This could be because of the way they've been converted, ie. storage cupboards housing boilers instead of being used for storage. Also, I doubt many tenants have useable attics or basements for storage, so often, although a single person in a 2 bedroom house might be deemed as under-occupying, maybe they use that as a guest room that also doubles up as storage.

I know when I got my first flat, the only cupboards were three cupboards in the kitchen. Absolutely nowhere to store anything else. Where do you put hoovers, mops, buckets, DIY stuff, etc. if there's not a single cupboard in the house.

Furthermore, because of the way it had been converted, it means there's only one wall in the living room large enough to accommodate a 3-seater sofa, and that's underneath draughty sash windows. 

I think there's a lot of people under the impression that people live in huge properties at their expense


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Another point

Say to avoid this, your only option is to take in a lodger and your toilet is in the same room as the bathroom? It's not like you're going to tell the lodger to go ahead and use the loo whilst you're in the bath, as if they're family and you don't mind

If you've got a tiny kitchen, how do you work that with a lodger in the house? You'd hardly be able to bulk buy any more as you'd have to give over some space for lodger

Do people in their 30s, 40s, 50s really need to be living like they're in student accommodation and labelling their cupboads/foods 

and would you really be wanting to bump into lodger when you got up in the middle of the night to go for a pee


----------



## Greebo (Mar 7, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords *
> 
> by Lencarl Pro @ 2013-03-05 – 14:46:03
> Great Tory housing shame: Third of ex-council homes now owned by rich landlords
> ...


Obscene.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 7, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> hm
> 
> Ignoring that for a minute, the thing a lot of people don't seem to realise is that although not everyone may sleep in their 2nd or 3rd bedrooms, a lot of 1 bedroom flats are very small and have no storage etc. This could be because of the way they've been converted, ie. storage cupboards housing boilers instead of being used for storage. Also, I doubt many tenants have useable attics or basements for storage, so often, although a single person in a 2 bedroom house might be deemed as under-occupying, maybe they use that as a guest room that also doubles up as storage.
> 
> ...


 
Council rents aren't very high,the 5 bed I referred to is about £200pw - that would probably be not as much as the private rent of a 1 bed in Central London - I've been in the flats, even the 5 beds are not palatial -


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Council rents aren't very high,the 5 bed I referred to is about £200pw - that would probably be not as much as the private rent of a 1 bed in Central London - I've been in the flats, even the 5 beds are not palatial -


 
I know they're not very high, and that's why it seems to be a lot of homeowners that are the ones that don't give a shit about and moan about paying for these skivers' rents etc., but I was just pointing out that these people are often living in pretty pokey little flats, not some palace


----------



## tarannau (Mar 7, 2013)

Hate to say this, but most of the council flats I've been in have tended to have more storage space than most private lets. Lower priced new builds now are almost invariably pokier than the past, particularly when it comes to storage.

That's not defending this horrible policy in any way btw.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

tarannau said:


> Hate to say this, but most of the council flats I've been in have tended to have more storage space than most private lets. Lower priced new builds now are almost invariably pokier than the past, particularly when it comes to storage.
> 
> That's not defending this horrible policy in any way btw.


 
Maybe with council flats, especially the older ones, but not necessarily the case with Housing Associated converted houses


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

tarannau said:


> Hate to say this, but most of the council flats I've been in have tended to have more storage space than most private lets. Lower priced new builds now are almost invariably pokier than the past, particularly when it comes to storage.
> 
> That's not defending this horrible policy in any way btw.


 
I also think that the fact that places are getting smaller is disgusting.  This is a cold country and therefore a lot of time is spent indoors.  It's not like we're in a warm country and have a great outdoor life.  I don't think it's too much to ask for enough room to swing your cat


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 8, 2013)

Liverpool HA force tenants to sign forms saying that accept legal action if can't pay rent as a result of #*bedroomtax* http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/tenants-asked-to-sign-bedroom-tax-disclaimer/6526054.article …

Social Housing Landlords putting revenue/profit before people? Quelle surprise! :/


----------



## marty21 (Mar 8, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Liverpool HA force tenants to sign forms saying that accept legal action if can't pay rent as a result of #*bedroomtax* http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/tenants-asked-to-sign-bedroom-tax-disclaimer/6526054.article …
> 
> Social Housing Landlords putting revenue/profit before people? Quelle surprise! :/


seems pointless - there is legal action anyway if you can't pay your rent


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 8, 2013)

marty21 said:


> seems pointless - there is legal action anyway if you can't pay your rent


 
I am wondering if this is because many tenancies have stipulations regarding legal action for non payment of rent. Mine for example says I need to be 4 full weeks in arrears before they will issue an order seeking possession. Getting tenants to sign something focused on the bedroomtax amount would mean action could be taken much sooner?


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 8, 2013)

tarannau said:


> Hate to say this, but most of the council flats I've been in have tended to have more storage space than most private lets. Lower priced new builds now are almost invariably pokier than the past, particularly when it comes to storage.
> 
> That's not defending this horrible policy in any way btw.


Tbh this house has a total minimal amount of storage space even though in feet and inches it's not a bad size.
The flat in Oxford definitely had a decent storage space though, I heard it was originally built privately and later bought by the council.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 8, 2013)

tarannau said:


> Hate to say this, but most of the council flats I've been in have tended to have more storage space than most private lets. Lower priced new builds now are almost invariably pokier than the past, particularly when it comes to storage.
> 
> That's not defending this horrible policy in any way btw.



That's more to do with the age of the property than who the landlord is. Those lower-priced new builds with no storage are also social housing flats too sometimes, of course. 

Some private landlords really do take the piss, though - at least with social housing you won't be chucked out for making legitimate complaints.


----------



## treelover (Mar 8, 2013)

> TOMMY Sheridan says he is willing to go to jail in the fight against the bedroom tax.
> The firebrand politician promised “human walls of solidarity” to stop any Scots being evicted if they fall into arrears.
> Tommy has teamed up with Glasgow lawyer Mike Dailly to take on the “cruelest” of the Con-Dem cuts.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Mar 8, 2013)

Btw, when is the BBC going to acknowlege this is a massive and important issue?...


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2013)

This bedroom tax is just plain wrong.

I am not on benefits but if I were I would be subject to it. I live in a nominally three bedroom house but one bedroom is too small to fit a bed even so it is my office. I sleep in one bedroom and my son sleeps in the other on the 3 nights a week when he stays with me.

If everyone was affected by this it would be as big an issue as the poll tax was. As it is only people on benefits it may not be but it is plain wrong!


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Another point
> 
> Say to avoid this, your only option is to take in a lodger and your toilet is in the same room as the bathroom? It's not like you're going to tell the lodger to go ahead and use the loo whilst you're in the bath, as if they're family and you don't mind
> 
> ...


 
Also, a person who is easily bullied would probably run into difficulties if they took in a lodger. Vulnerable people having their homes more or less taken over already happens far too often.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 9, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Vulnerable people having there homes more or less taken over already happens far too often.


yup


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 9, 2013)

There are roughly 2.5 million people unemployed; there is a requirement to build 330,000 houses a year to meet demand; the construction sector is down almost 10% since January meaning idle machinery lying around. The point has most likely been made already, but why the fuck not... err... build more houses? Bedrooms for everyone that way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 9, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> There are roughly 2.5 million people unemployed; there is a requirement to build 330,000 houses a year to meet demand; the construction sector is down almost 10% since January meaning idle machinery lying around. The point has most likely been made already, but why the fuck not... err... build more houses?


 
or do something with all the empty houses that are already sitting there


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## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> or do something with all the empty houses that are already sitting there


 
This is also very true. Me and you should run for parliament.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2013)

Makes me cross, picking on the weakest in society.

eta: Richer people are allowed to have a spare room, in fact it is expected!


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 9, 2013)

weltweit said:


> This bedroom tax is just plain wrong.
> 
> I am not on benefits but if I were I would be subject to it. I live in a nominally three bedroom house but one bedroom is too small to fit a bed even so it is my office. I sleep in one bedroom and my son sleeps in the other on the 3 nights a week when he stays with me.
> 
> If everyone was affected by this it would be as big an issue as the poll tax was. As it is only people on benefits it may not be but it is plain wrong!


Don't u own ur home?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 9, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Don't u own ur home?


No, I wish, I am renting atm and will be for quite a while.


----------



## treelover (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Makes me cross, picking on the weakest in society.
> 
> eta: Richer people are allowed to have a spare room, in fact it is expected!


 
Lord Fraud, the imcompetent (former banker involved in the channel tunnel fiasco) responsible for the B/T has 14...


----------



## coley (Mar 10, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...ls-for-changes-to-bedroom-tax/6526073.article
> 
> possibly the beginning of a u-turn?



One of the problems of common sense prevailing, is idiots screaming, U turn yada yada


----------



## BigTom (Mar 10, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-disabled-boy-logan-1753219



> Bedroom tax shock: Disabled boy may have to go into CARE despite David Cameron's pledge
> 
> Logan is severely autistic but his mum has been told she must pay extra £60 a week


 
This is just


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Has anyone taken any action over this? (sorry not read whole thread)
I am thinking of writing to my MP, though fat lot of good that will probably do.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Has anyone taken any action over this? (sorry not read whole thread)
> I am thinking of writing to my MP, though fat lot of good that will probably do.


 
There are a load of demonstrations on Saturday 16th March, and some on the 30th.
http://sampb.co.uk/politics/bedroom-tax-march-16th/

Apparently Cameron has said he'll read every letter that's written to him by someone affected by the bedroom tax (lol), and the mirror had a story yesterday about Tory MPs starting to kick back over it because of the letters they are getting http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-conservative-mps-turn-1751893
so it's not necessarily worthless writing to your MP, though I'm sure this'll still be happening come April, it feels like there's a much stronger and broader opposition to this benefit cut than anything else that's happened in the past couple of years.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Wonders what I will write....

I guess the gist of it would be - if you go through with the bedroom tax which picks on the most vulnerable in our society (who in any case have no smaller houses to relocate to) you will have earnt your status as the nasty party!


----------



## treelover (Mar 10, 2013)

shouldn't forget that with the removal of legal aid, people are going to find it hard to challenge the BT, collective solidarity is needed here...

btw, some angry people on that Mirror article, I smell Poll Tax mark 2...


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

Had someone who is unemployed say to me yesterday: 'I'm in private rented sector housing and already have £10 deducted from Housing Benefit for under-occupation', which gave me the impression that he at least won't be giving much support to a campaign. Anarchist sympathies, father a former communist too. I was surprised he'd fallen into the trap set and clearly demonstrating that the tories have already created division between the private and public rented sector tenants.

If any campaign with the bedroom tax, links up with the changes to council tax and cuts generally, then a different response?


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 10, 2013)

BigTom said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-disabled-boy-logan-1753219
> 
> 
> 
> This is just


They also seem to be misleading as the title says £60 a week in charges and the article says £60 a month. Bit dishonest?


----------



## BigTom (Mar 10, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> They also seem to be misleading as the title says £60 a week in charges and the article says £60 a month. Bit dishonest?


 
So it does, I'd bet the journalist has it correct in the article and the subeditor has misread it, I didn't notice that.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> They also seem to be misleading as the title says £60 a week in charges and the article says £60 a month. Bit dishonest?


 
I noticed that last night.  Think it might be a mistake, especially considering £14 is the average figure being bandied about


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

"..spare room subsidy"[!]

Straight out of the Orwellian "Ministry of Truth".

This is a benefit entitlement now being reduced is the real "truth".

The last time I checked, council tenants here were subsidising the treasury £17 per week each out of their weekly rent.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Had someone who is unemployed say to me yesterday: 'I'm in private rented sector housing and already have £10 deducted from Housing Benefit for under-occupation', which gave me the impression that he at least won't be giving much support to a campaign. Anarchist sympathies, father a former communist too. I was surprised he'd fallen into the trap set and clearly demonstrating that the tories have already created division between the private and public rented sector tenants.
> 
> If any campaign with the bedroom tax, links up with the changes to council tax and cuts generally, then a different response?


 
Sounds like sour grapes, sounds like they're obviously pissed off that because they have some money deducted, why shouldn't social tenants.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> "..spare room subsidy"[!]
> 
> Straight out of the Orwellian "Ministry of Truth".
> 
> ...


 
They really can't decide what to call it can they.   I thought it was the under-occupancy penalty (although I think that's out-of-date now).  There is an official name for it, but nobody can remember what it is as it's so long-winded


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Sounds like sour grapes, sounds like they're obviously pissed off that because they have some money deducted, why shouldn't social tenants.


 
Quite and my response was to say this is not about being "unfair", nor is it to do with any notions of being "discriminatory", rather it's an attack on us all.


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## ItWillNeverWork (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Quite and my response was to say this is not about being "unfair", nor is it to do with any notions of being "discriminatory", rather it's an attack on us all.


 
Don't be silly. Didn't you know that fairness is when we _all_ have it shit as opposed to only some. Kind of like when someone gets run over by a bus, and owing to a sense 'fairness' everyone spends the next day jumping in front of traffic. Equality, innit.


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## toggle (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Had someone who is unemployed say to me yesterday: 'I'm in private rented sector housing and already have £10 deducted from Housing Benefit for under-occupation', which gave me the impression that he at least won't be giving much support to a campaign. Anarchist sympathies, father a former communist too. I was surprised he'd fallen into the trap set and clearly demonstrating that the tories have already created division between the private and public rented sector tenants.
> 
> If any campaign with the bedroom tax, links up with the changes to council tax and cuts generally, then a different response?


 
do they?

or do they just get the LHA and that's a bit less than the actual rent?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

Some interesting figures here



> The average monthly rent in private accomodation in London is £1202 - a 12 per cent increase over one year. [211]


 


> There are 79,971 empty homes in London - which represents 2.4 per cent of the total housing stock. Lambeth has the highest number - with 4290 recorded empty homes. [214]


 


> House prices in London are 61 per cent higher than the national average and more than double those in the North East. [225]


 


> The average rent for council housing in London (2011/12) is £386.40 per month. [231]


 
etc. etc. etc.

http://www.londoncouncils.gov.uk/londonfacts/default.htm?category=10


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## Ms Ordinary (Mar 10, 2013)

I made the mistake of overhearing Question Time the other day, and was spitting when I heard some Tory woman going on about "why should the taxpayer pay for council tenants to live in homes with more rooms than they need" as if all council tenants get their homes for free instead of paying rent for them.

I am so against this for many reasons - but one is that council homes were meant to be a secure tenancy, a decent home for the rest of your life. My grandparents moved into a 2 bed council house after the war, brought up their children and lived there *paying rent* for the rest of their life (not 100% certain of the details after my grandad died & my gran was a pensioner but thats the gist of it), with her neighbours mostly doing the same - that's what makes a community.

Quite apart from the misery & wrongness that's going to be inflicted on individual families, it's just more along the line of eroding those basic rights for people to have a secure home to raise a family or just live out their days in. They are trying to make 'council housing' into short term housing for the near destitute, that you live in on sufferance and have to move out of after a few years if your circumstances change.

Being a private tenant who - although there are some advantages to it - lives with that permanent insecurity that my landlord could give me a couple of months notice to leave at any time - makes me think people should have more security not less.

Proper incentives for people to downsize I have no objection to - if there were enough smaller homes in the right areas for this to work, then enough people would take the incentive just as people who own their homes make a financial or practical decision to move somewhere smaller or nearer their family as they get older. Or maybe even schemes where a lone elderly person could take in a lodger to help care for them or provide company (I have heard of something like this where the lodger is vetted or supported in some way).


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

toggle said:


> do they?
> 
> or do they just get the LHA and that's a bit less than the actual rent?


 
I did ask that same question and advised he check whether what he was saying was the actual facts of the matter.


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## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

cynicaleconomy said:


> Don't be silly. Didn't you know that fairness is when we _all_ have it shit as opposed to only some. Kind of like when someone gets run over by a bus, and owing to a sense 'fairness' everyone spends the next day jumping in front of traffic. Equality, innit.


 
Aye, nothing is put right by punitive measures against social housing tenants on benefit, while also leaving those in the private rented sector sector also on benefits in a difficult situation. It is put right by having benefits that alleviate poverty, fair rents and security of tenure for all.

I could set-up a neo-liberal, crack house I suppose.


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## treelover (Mar 10, 2013)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I made the mistake of overhearing Question Time the other day, and was spitting when I heard some Tory woman going on about "why should the taxpayer pay for council tenants to live in homes with more rooms than they need" as if all council tenants get their homes for free instead of paying rent for them.
> 
> I am so against this for many reasons - but one is that council homes were meant to be a secure tenancy, a decent home for the rest of your life. My grandparents moved into a 2 bed council house after the war, brought up their children and lived there *paying rent* for the rest of their life (not 100% certain of the details after my grandad died & my gran was a pensioner but thats the gist of it), with her neighbours mostly doing the same - that's what makes a community.
> 
> ...


 

Its not just council housing, its any kind of social housing, I agree with most of your O/P, but plenty of council tenants bought their C/H's and sold it on, generally to Tory M.P's and their relatives, while others were socially cleansed by gentrification, etc, the idea of 'community' has been fractured for a long time.....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

Anyone know anything about the proposal for a dining room tax?

I don't think I actually know any council/HA tenants with a dining room 

Maybe it's to catch out landlords who decide to reclassify a bedroom as a dining room?




> *Bedroom tax' could include dining rooms*
> 
> Councils will be allowed to classify dining rooms as bedrooms for the purposes of the new 'bedroom tax' tax, which will see benefits cut for social housing tenants deemed to have a spare room. Tory-lead Sedgemoor district council in Somerset has already redefined dining rooms and “parlours” as bedrooms in some council houses, The Sunday Times reports.


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## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

The house I live in was sold to me as a three bedroom.

But the third room is not large enough to take even a bed, let alone anything else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> The house I live in was sold to me as a three bedroom.
> 
> But the third room is not large enough to take even a bed, let alone anything else.


 
I'm sure you could squeeze a triple decker bunk bed in there


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## Tankus (Mar 10, 2013)

seen elsewhere 
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...8951.376052.691563950&type=1&relevant_count=1
dunno


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

Tankus said:


> seen elsewhere
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...8951.376052.691563950&type=1&relevant_count=1
> dunno


 
That's been doing the rounds but as the Government doesn't specify room size blah blah blah, it's not something people should get too excited about


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> The house I live in was sold to me as a three bedroom.
> 
> But the third room is not large enough to take even a bed, let alone anything else.


 
Similar situation here


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

> *Bedroom tax? But what is a bedroom?*
> 
> * Barry Turner *
> 
> ...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

Tankus said:


> seen elsewhere
> https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?...8951.376052.691563950&type=1&relevant_count=1
> dunno


 
Here you go



> *Bedroom Tax – room size rumours*
> 
> Over the weekend the following statement has been going viral on many social media sites:
> 
> ...


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

> Dear [My MP],
> 
> I write to express my disgust at the bedroom tax.
> People said you were not the nasty party, how wrong they were!
> ...


 
Doubt it will do any good ..


----------



## free spirit (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Here you go


hmm. I wonder if the internet rumours on that stem from the post I made on here where I gave that information.

I'd have to wonder where NHF have got their information from though, as I can't see why the legal definition wouldn't apply, and would expect any judicial review would confirm this. They may well be right that DWP don't recognise this, and would have to be taken to judicial review to force them to apply the law in this way, but that's a bit different to stating that it doesn't apply.

And no it's not a matter for landlords to determine, it's ultimately a matter for the courts to determine based on UK law, and personally I'd advocate none payment by anyone being chased for payment for anything below those minimum standards as it would then force it in to court for a court to decide, and tbh I doubt they'd want to test this in court anyway.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> Doubt it will do any good ..


 
Doubt it

http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-02-27&number=167&showall=yes#voters


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

free spirit said:


> hmm. I wonder if the internet rumours on that stem from the post I made on here where I gave that information.
> 
> I'd have to wonder where NHF have got their information from though, as I can't see why the legal definition wouldn't apply, and would expect any judicial review would confirm this. They may well be right that DWP don't recognise this, and would have to be taken to judicial review to force them to apply the law in this way, but that's a bit different to stating that it doesn't apply.
> 
> And no it's not a matter for landlords to determine, it's ultimately a matter for the courts to determine based on UK law, and personally I'd advocate none payment by anyone being chased for payment for anything below those minimum standards as it would then force it in to court for a court to decide, and tbh I doubt they'd want to test this in court anyway.


 
But can you imagine if councils decided that your box room was NOT a bedroom.  People could therefore say that they've been overcharged rent for however many years based on a boxroom being classified as a bedroom on your tenancy iyswim and there's no way councils are going to refund everyone for paying for a bedroom that really only a boxroom  

I know what I mean


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Doubt it
> http://www.publicwhip.org.uk/division.php?date=2013-02-27&number=167&showall=yes#voters


 
My MP voted no. Wonder how many letters they have received about this ....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> My MP voted no. Wonder how many letters they have received about this ....


 
All the NOs were Conservative and Libs.  Not a single Aye from either party


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> All the NOs were Conservative and Libs. Not a single Aye from either party


I am assuming they were whipped to vote that way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> I am assuming they were whipped to vote that way.


 
They enjoy a good whipping those MPs


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> They enjoy a good whipping those MPs


All some of them are good for !!


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## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

I wonder how much the people will be exercised about this measure.
I put in my letter that this could be their poll tax - but of course it is not everyone who is affected by the bedroom tax, only those both on benefits and living in council housing.
So it could be a lot fewer people will be excited into action as "it does not affect me" ....


----------



## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

I've sent an email, despite what you think it does have some affect. If MP's have a bulging sack of letters, or a full inbox on an issue then at least it takes up the time of their office to respond, so they do take note. Nothing and their laughing. Here's a quick route.

http://www.writetothem.com/


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Here's a quick route.
> http://www.writetothem.com/


Yes, I used that website, quick and efficient.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I've sent an email, despite what you think it does have some affect. If MP's have a bulging sack of letters, or a full inbox on an issue then at least it takes up the time of their office to respond, so they do take note. Nothing and their laughing. Here's a quick route.
> 
> http://www.writetothem.com/


 
Bulging sacs - Oooh, bloody hell.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

Yes, one in the googlies gets a more bulging sac..


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

People on R4 are saying why call it a bedroom tax because it isn't a tax.
Wonder if there could be a better name for it?


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Mansion tax .... nah already taken


----------



## weltweit (Mar 10, 2013)

Bedroom charge

Spare bedroom charge or Spare bedroom levy .. I quite like that


----------



## audiotech (Mar 10, 2013)

ConDem twattery.


----------



## ymu (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Another point
> 
> Say to avoid this, your only option is to take in a lodger and your toilet is in the same room as the bathroom? It's not like you're going to tell the lodger to go ahead and use the loo whilst you're in the bath, as if they're family and you don't mind
> 
> ...


Would taking in a lodger would make any difference anyway? Even if your tenancy agreement allowed you to sublet, the bedroom tax would still apply and presumably the income you got from rent would be deducted from your housing benefit?


----------



## ymu (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone know anything about the proposal for a dining room tax?
> 
> I don't think I actually know any council/HA tenants with a dining room
> 
> Maybe it's to catch out landlords who decide to reclassify a bedroom as a dining room?


It looks much more like an attempt by a Tory council to screw over their social housing tenants as much as possible. That is fucking disgusting. Social housing with a dining room rarely has space for a table anywhere else. Some families might choose to use the room as a bedroom but they can't go insisting that it is regardless.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

ymu said:


> It looks much more like an attempt by a Tory council to screw over their social housing tenants as much as possible. That is fucking disgusting. Social housing with a dining room rarely has space for a table anywhere else. Some families might choose to use the room as a bedroom but they can't go insisting that it is regardless.


 
I didn't actually realise any social housing had dining rooms


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## Greebo (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I didn't actually realise any social housing had dining rooms


As a rule, it doesn't.  There'll be one or more bedrooms, a kitchen, bathroom, hall (optional) and then there'll be a living room.  This had better not be classed as a dining room or even more of us are going to be over our heads in shit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 10, 2013)

Greebo said:


> As a rule, it doesn't. There'll be one or more bedrooms, a kitchen, bathroom, hall (optional) and then there'll be a living room. This had better not be classed as a dining room or even more of us are going to be over our heads in shit.


 
Maybe they'll decide that a separate loo counts as a spare room and demand you move it into the bathroom or pay for the privilege of having it in a separate room


----------



## ymu (Mar 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I didn't actually realise any social housing had dining rooms


I guess it'll depend on the area and who built them and when.

It would be quite amusing if this was a Tory wheeze to be extra cunty and then it turned out that it applied to zero properties.


----------



## sunny jim (Mar 11, 2013)

I did hear that dining rooms count as bedrooms and so people will have to pay for them too. Surely bedrooms have beds in them and wardrobes and bedroom furniture unlike dining rooms which normally have tables and chairs - and no beds. WTF is going on there?


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 11, 2013)

weltweit said:


> People on R4 are saying why call it a bedroom tax because it isn't a tax.
> Wonder if there could be a better name for it?


 
The Poll Tax wasn't really called the Poll Tax it was called Community Charge (although it was a tax).
The Bedroom Tax *is* a sneaky tax on poor people.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I did hear that dining rooms count as bedrooms and so people will have to pay for them too. Surely bedrooms have beds in them and wardrobes and bedroom furniture unlike dining rooms which normally have tables and chairs - and no beds. WTF is going on there?


 
Well not all box rooms are used as bedrooms either, but that doesn't stop them being classed as one


----------



## Belushi (Mar 11, 2013)

I've lived in a council house that had a kitchen/diner thing going on, but I've never in my life been in one that had a separate dining room.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well not all box rooms are used as bedrooms either, but that doesn't stop them being classed as one


I have a box room, in fact I am in it now.
No room for a bed or any furniture.
The agents had the cheek to call it a third bedroom.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 11, 2013)

I have been in a council flat with a dining room, but it was originally a bedroom. That was one thing people were planning to do to fight against this cut - call the "spare" bedroom a dining room. I've also seen several council houses with dining rooms, but they were the only way to get to the kitchen and bathroom, so really can't be counted as a bedroom.


----------



## beeboo (Mar 11, 2013)

free spirit said:


> hmm. I wonder if the internet rumours on that stem from the post I made on here where I gave that information.
> 
> I'd have to wonder where NHF have got their information from though, as I can't see why the legal definition wouldn't apply, and would expect any judicial review would confirm this. They may well be right that DWP don't recognise this, and would have to be taken to judicial review to force them to apply the law in this way, but that's a bit different to stating that it doesn't apply.
> 
> And no it's not a matter for landlords to determine, it's ultimately a matter for the courts to determine based on UK law, and personally I'd advocate none payment by anyone being chased for payment for anything below those minimum standards as it would then force it in to court for a court to decide, and tbh I doubt they'd want to test this in court anyway.


 
There's been a lot of these rumours about for ages. 

To the best of my knowledge (I'm no legal expert) the NHF's information is accurate.  As you say there *could* be challenges in the future (either through judicial review or through individual possession hearings) but as it stands there's no size definitions which are currently applicable to the 'bedroom  tax'.  As I understand it the fact that definitions apply in relation to overcrowding in the housing act doesn't mean the same definitions apply in relation to the bedroom tax. 

Like you say that doesn't mean that people can't use the Housing Act definitions as relevant evidence to challenge the bedroom tax, but believe me these questions were all raised long before the legislation was passed - DWP aren't that stupid as to have put this into effect without having thought about the implications of the housing act.

I've always thought the bedroom size issue is going to come back to bite them eventually in some form, but it's a very high risk strategy to not pay on the basis of the size of your bedrooms.  Fair play to anyone brave enough to try it but I wouldn't want to bet on their chances of success.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 11, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I've lived in a council house that had a kitchen/diner thing going on, but I've never in my life been in one that had a separate dining room.


 
You do get council houses that have two downstairs rooms as well as the kitchen, like a living room and a parlour kinda gig - These are always highly sought after properties coz most people do use the second living room as an extra bedroom.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

coley

Real figures of how much people in the more expensive areas will lose out. Look at Westminster or City of London to get an idea of how much more some people will be paying



> 1. Figures provided on number of bedroom tax losers and average amount lost per year at constituency level (Excel, opens new window)are National Housing Federation estimates, based on regional level data from the Department for Work and Pensions’ regional totals which assume the same proportion of tenants affected locally as regionally.


 
I assume these figures are without even taking rent increases into account? 

Anyway, an example

Westminster North 911 £891 £1,591


(that's £891 for under-occupying by one room, and £1,591 for two rooms). 911 figure is amount of households affected

and compare to East Lothian

East Lothian  1,628 £346  £619


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

Actually, Tooting and Putney is even higher than Westminster and the City


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

PS:  I realise LHA will have to be taken into consideration, but I still think a lot of people are going to be paying a lot more than the £700 bandied about.  Putney and Tooting are over £900 for one spare room


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## coley (Mar 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> PS:  I realise LHA will have to be taken into consideration, but I still think a lot of people are going to be paying a lot more than the £700 bandied about.  Putney and Tooting are over £900 for one spare room


 Bit lost, are the figures you quote the rents or the amount of benefit people are going to lose?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

coley said:


> Bit lost, are the figures you quote the rents or the amount of benefit people are going to lose?


 
To me, they look pretty much like the amounts tenants are going to have to pay


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

coley



> *Bedroom Tax shambles in Westminster*
> 
> Posted on March 9, 2013 by pdimoldenberg
> Westminster Conservatives have downsized just 8 out of the more than 500 Council households who will be hit by the bedroom tax when it is introduced in April. This means that over 500 Westminster families currently claiming Housing Benefit will have to pay £17 if they have 1 more room than they are allowed or £34 if they have 2 more rooms than allowed.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

> The National Housing Federation has calculated which constituencies will be hit hardest by penalties for under-occupation of social housing that come into force on 1 April.
> 
> In terms of the number of people affected, Manchester Central tops the list, followed by Salford and Eccles, then Blackley and Broughton.
> 
> The highest reductions will hit tenants in London, because they are based on a percentage of housing benefit, which is in turn linked to rent. Tenants in Battersea, Putney and Tooting will have payments cut by an average of £912 a year if they have one spare room, and £1,629 if they have two spare rooms.


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## coley (Mar 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> coley


Doesn't sound a lot more than people are going to have to pay around here which is in the region of £15 pw,

I would like to think its just badly thought out,but I think it's a money saving exercise, rather than a genuine desire to re-allocate housing.
Apologies to those who have no doubt already mentioned this.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

coley said:


> Doesn't sound a lot more than people are going to have to pay around here which is in the region of £15 pw,


 
No, it's not a huge amount, except to people who are struggling anyway, but it is a large amount if you're classed as having 2 spare rooms, where one might be for someone disabled who's now expected to share etc. and another room might be for medical equipment


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## coley (Mar 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No, it's not a huge amount, except to people who are struggling anyway, but it is a large amount if you're classed as having 2 spare rooms, where one might be for someone disabled who's now expected to share etc. and another room might be for medical equipment



No, I am not saying its not a huge amount, just I was expecting the amounts down London to be higher than up here, it's a lot of money to those on low incomes or benefits.
It's also,going to hit a lot of LD people who are being moved out of care and into supported living, given they are usually housed in two,bedroomed flats or houses


----------



## beeboo (Mar 11, 2013)

coley said:


> No, I am not saying its not a huge amount, just I was expecting the amounts down London to be higher than up here, it's a lot of money to those on low incomes or benefits.
> It's also,going to hit a lot of LD people who are being moved out of care and into supported living, given they are usually housed in two,bedroomed flats or houses


 
I think it averages out a bit as in the north there are more people with two spare bedrooms who lose 25% of their benefit, whereas in London rents are higher but more of the people hit only have 1 spare room so 'only' lose 14%.

For the most part people living in supported housing won't be hit - it has to be classed as 'exempt' accomodation but most supported and sheltered housing should fall into this category.


----------



## coley (Mar 11, 2013)

beeboo said:


> I think it averages out a bit as in the north there are more people with two spare bedrooms who lose 25% of their benefit, whereas in London rents are higher but more of the people hit only have 1 spare room so 'only' lose 14%.
> 
> For the most part people living in supported housing won't be hit - it has to be classed as 'exempt' accomodation but most supported and sheltered housing should fall into this category.


But if the person in supported living is "renting" their house from a private landlord they will still be hit, or won't they?


----------



## quimcunx (Mar 11, 2013)

Shelter just sent me this infographic to share.


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## free spirit (Mar 11, 2013)

beeboo said:


> Fair play to anyone brave enough to try it but I wouldn't want to bet on their chances of success.


oh, I would.

In the absense of any other legal definition the court would almost certainly look to any other relevant legislation, and apply a reasonableness test to it, so is it reasonable to be charged for a room as a bedroom that is smaller than would be defined as a bedroom under the housing act... I don't see that it is.

Obviously this would depend on some organisation with some finances stepping in to front the legal costs, but I'd be very surprised if such a challenge wasn't successful.


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## audiotech (Mar 11, 2013)

"Make sure you're ready"?

For the bailiffs? 

*sharpens axe, chops wood*


----------



## beeboo (Mar 11, 2013)

free spirit said:


> oh, I would.
> 
> In the absense of any other legal definition the court would almost certainly look to any other relevant legislation, and apply a reasonableness test to it, so is it reasonable to be charged for a room as a bedroom that is smaller than would be defined as a bedroom under the housing act... I don't see that it is.
> 
> Obviously this would depend on some organisation with some finances stepping in to front the legal costs, but I'd be very surprised if such a challenge wasn't successful.


 
You'd need to be arguing that the room should never have been deemed to be a bedroom in the first place. But presumably you'd have signed a tenancy agreement which stated the number of rooms and agreed to pay rent on that basis (whether with support from housing benefit or otherwise).  So you'd have to be arguing that you were perfectly prepared to live in the property and accept the level of rent due up until the point where your housing benefit no longer covered it.  Would that wash?

I'm not saying there's zero chance of success, but I think it would be very bad advice to suggest to someone affected by this to stick it out and wait for their day in court, unless they're entirely prepared for the baliffs to come a-knocking.

The fact of the matter is there is NO exemption on the basis of bedroom size so you'd be taking a gamble.  Whether you think it would pay off is a matter of opinion.  But I'd hate to think that anyone might measure up their room and think they're 'safe' because it's less than 70sqft because that's very much not the case.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

beeboo said:


> You'd need to be arguing that the room should never have been deemed to be a bedroom in the first place. But presumably you'd have signed a tenancy agreement which stated the number of rooms and agreed to pay rent on that basis (whether with support from housing benefit or otherwise). So you'd have to be arguing that you were perfectly prepared to live in the property and accept the level of rent due up until the point where your housing benefit no longer covered it. Would that wash?
> I'm not saying there's zero chance of success, but I think it would be very bad advice to suggest to someone affected by this to stick it out and wait for their day in court, unless they're entirely prepared for the baliffs to come a-knocking.
> 
> The fact of the matter is there is NO exemption on the basis of bedroom size so you'd be taking a gamble. Whether you think it would pay off is a matter of opinion. But I'd hate to think that anyone might measure up their room and think they're 'safe' because it's less than 70sqft because that's very much not the case.


 
I agree.  Think it's very foolhardy for people to believe landlords would or should reclassify. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that if you'd been paying rent, you could then claim a refund for paying too much rent, but it would work the other way as well.  If you'd been getting housing benefit for a 3-bedroom property, and then it suddenly becomes 2-bedroom, then DWP could say they've been paying too much rent and want their money back.  Just one of the many reasons why I wouldn't hold out much hope for that argument

sorry for waffle, in middle of cooking


----------



## free spirit (Mar 11, 2013)

beeboo said:


> You'd need to be arguing that the room should never have been deemed to be a bedroom in the first place. But presumably you'd have signed a tenancy agreement which stated the number of rooms and agreed to pay rent on that basis (whether with support from housing benefit or otherwise). So you'd have to be arguing that you were perfectly prepared to live in the property and accept the level of rent due up until the point where your housing benefit no longer covered it. Would that wash?


I didn't think most people had a vast amount of choice about their social housing provision, and don't see how someone having accepted a tenancy for a house that described a room as eg a boxroom / spare bedroom, but never having actually used it as such would be much evidence of anything.

I do see what you mean though, and would think this wouldn't apply if the room actually had been used as a bedroom - at least that'd not be a good house to use as a test case.




beeboo said:


> The fact of the matter is there is NO exemption on the basis of bedroom size so you'd be taking a gamble. Whether you think it would pay off is a matter of opinion. But I'd hate to think that anyone might measure up their room and think they're 'safe' because it's less than 70sqft because that's very much not the case.


agreed.

But then again, it's a fairly good basis for a starting point for a campaign of none payment, as it'd certainly give government lawyers some serious cause for concern, and I could easily see them not actually wanting to force this into court to create a test case. Obviously you'd need to be someone who was prepared to put up with / ignore their attempts to bully you into paying it, and work the system etc. and tbh it would really need some well funded organisation to back it and provide legal support for anyone who got into trouble. So without that support, I guess you're probably right that people shouldn't be relying on this (unless they were particularly looking to take a stand and damn the consequences).


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## marty21 (Mar 11, 2013)

http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-bedroom-tax-will-go-direct-action-is-needed/

Interesting protest technique suggested in this blog



> As a general rule of thumb any decision made by a public body such as a local authority, the LA or council, involves a right of appeal to those it affects.  The bedroom tax decision is made by the LA and holds such an appeal right to every tenant, *so imagine if all 660,000 tenants did appeal!!  The system would be thrown into chaos, absolute chaos and I have no problem in advocating and promoting that every social tenant hit with a bedroom tax decision should appeal.  It is your legal right after all.*


 
clog up the  courts - make it expensive for the government/LA -


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

So people are now getting excited now that families with severely disabled children are now supposedly exempt, but it looks like it depends on LHA and medical advice, so this is going to get even more confusing.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

> *Mike Andrews* ‏@*mja_owl*
> Three weeks from #*bedroomtax* and still don't know the rules. How do we advise tenants ? This is turning into farce - too serious for that.


 
and that tweet is from the CEO of Nottingham Community Housing Association.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 11, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-bedroom-tax-will-go-direct-action-is-needed/
> 
> Interesting protest technique suggested in this blog
> 
> clog up the courts - make it expensive for the government/LA -


 
or just a waste of time. Tying up local authorities housing benefit or court staff in dealing with baseless appeals does nothing but delay the processing of housing benefit claims and hearings for those with legitimate appeals- never of which is in tenants interests.


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## coley (Mar 11, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-bedroom-tax-will-go-direct-action-is-needed/
> 
> Interesting protest technique suggested in this blog
> Interesting, but who foots the bill for these appeals?
> ...


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## treelover (Mar 12, 2013)

''No, it's not a huge amount, except to people who are struggling anyway,''


Minnie, there are many thousands struggling, 60 pounds a month could tip them over the edge...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> ''No, it's not a huge amount, except to people who are struggling anyway,''
> 
> 
> Minnie, there are many thousands struggling, 60 pounds a month could tip them over the edge...


 
I think you've misinterpreted what I was saying to Coley there. I was talking about the differences in London prices and the places where it's much cheaper. Coley didn't think there was a huge difference in London prices compared to prices wherever he is (ie. £15 for 1 room, compared to £17 for 1 room in London), and I was agreeing with that whilst still saying it's a lot if you haven't got it!

I was trying to point out that there's some people (countrywide, not just London) who are going to have to be paying more


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

> But even though housing bosses built the £8,000 lift and shaft through the floor of her spare bedroom and took walls and the door out, they have now told her she will have to find up to £600 a year to cover the reduction in her housing benefit.
> ​Read more: Liverpool Echo http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/2013/03/12/liverpool-woman-faces-600-bedroom-tax-bill-on-disabled-chair-lift-shaft-100252-32969797/#.UT8PX0TyFeI.twitter#ixzz2NKANNmyx​


 
Surely if there's no walls or door, it's not really a room


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

> The Department for Work and Pensions has announced a change to housing benefit which means foster carers and military personnel will not be affected by the so-called 'bedroom tax'.


 

Can't find any sources except for ITV though


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## Kaka Tim (Mar 12, 2013)

..


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Looks like it's true 

*ARMY PERSONNEL STILL LIVING AT HOME (WITH PARENTS) AND FOSTER CARERS EXEMPT*



> *Duncan Smith: Exemptions introduced to 'bedroom tax'*
> 
> Secretary of State for Work and Pensions Iain Duncan Smith has announced that foster carers and army personnel will be exempt from the so-called "bedroom tax".
> In a *Written Ministerial Statement*, he wrote: "People who are approved foster carers will be allowed an additional room, whether or not a child has been placed with them or they are between placements, so long as they have fostered a child, or become an approved foster carer in the last 12 months.
> "Adult children who are in the Armed Forces but who continue to live with parentswill be treated as continuing to live at home, even when deployed on operations."


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## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Looks like it's true
> 
> *ARMY PERSONNEL STILL LIVING AT HOME (WITH PARENTS) AND FOSTER CARERS EXEMPT*



Common sense at last


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Common sense at last


 
Scrapping it altogether would be common sense 

5 days before a load of protests.  Probably hoping they won't go ahead


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## weltweit (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Scrapping it altogether would be common sense ............


 
No response to my letter yet!


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## geminisnake (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Looks like it's true
> 
> *ARMY PERSONNEL STILL LIVING AT HOME (WITH PARENTS) AND FOSTER CARERS EXEMPT*


 
All they've done is take some potential protesters out of the equation 

Eta I reckon this is more about trying to keep the forces/councils sweet than anything else. CNUTS!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> All they've done is take some potential protesters out of the equation


 
See post 544 

Course, they ain't going to do it for disabled as they make up the largest group affected (over 400,000).  They're probably hoping all the disabled people will be too sick to protest


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I've also seen several council houses with dining rooms, but they were the only way to get to the kitchen and bathroom, so really can't be counted as a bedroom.


If the layout is like that, the living room is usually self-contained and would be reclassified as a bedroom, with the 'dining room' becoming the living room.


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I agree. Think it's very foolhardy for people to believe landlords would or should reclassify. I think I mentioned earlier in the thread that if you'd been paying rent, you could then claim a refund for paying too much rent, but it would work the other way as well. If you'd been getting housing benefit for a 3-bedroom property, and then it suddenly becomes 2-bedroom, then DWP could say they've been paying too much rent and want their money back. Just one of the many reasons why I wouldn't hold out much hope for that argument
> 
> sorry for waffle, in middle of cooking


I think it's possible to take a common sense approach to this. A boxroom is not a bedroom and cannot be counted for the purposes of the bedroom tax. Rent is determined by the size of the house and not by how many rooms are actually in use as bedrooms. A boxroom may be counted as a bedroom when housing a family who would otherwise be regarded as overcrowded in an X-bed.

HB for social tenants is the rent due, not the LHA rate so there are no issues there.


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/03/...-bedroom-tax-will-go-direct-action-is-needed/
> 
> Interesting protest technique suggested in this blog
> 
> ...


This would likely be the quickest way to get it abandoned as the unworkable mess that it is. Anyone who is being charged without smaller accommodation being made available to them has legitimate grounds to appeal. This isn't just about having to move house, it is about having to give up the security of a social tenancy, and having to pay more in private rents in perpetuity (including when back in work and no longer claiming HB).

It would be a very good campaign for community-minded left groups. Going around and letting people know that they can appeal and offering support to do so.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

ymu said:


> I think it's possible to take a common sense approach to this.


 
Tell that to the DWP and social landlords


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Tell that to the DWP and social landlords


Oh, I agree. I'm answering those posters who think this is a no-goer. I don't think the objections are insurmountable, and I'm not at all sure that the DWP have considered this, at ministerial level at least. These Tories are utterly incompetent, so certain they are that their vision of reality is flawless, and IDS has ignored heaps of advice from his mandarins.

Although I think a legal case might be winnable based solely on the loss of a social tenancy with no alternative social tenancy being offered. Especially for those people who were originally housed with a spare room because nowhere smaller was available. This law effectively means that Scotland has to deport anyone coming out of care, or force them into private renting when they are entitled (AFAIK) to a social tenancy.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

ymu said:


> Oh, I agree. I'm answering those posters who think this is a no-goer. I don't think the objections are insurmountable, and I'm not at all sure that the DWP have considered this, at ministerial level at least. These Tories are utterly incompetent, so certain they are that their vision of reality is flawless, and IDS has ignored heaps of advice from his mandarins.
> 
> Although I think a legal case might be winnable based on the loss of a social tenancy with no alternative social tenancy being offered. Especially for those people who were originally housed with a spare room because nowhere smaller was available. This law effectively means that Scotland has to deport anyone coming out of care, or force them into private renting when they are entitled (AFAIK) to a social tenancy.


 

Weren't careleavers exempt from the LHA cap until they were 21?  Wonder what the situation will be now if there's no single properties?


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

I thought all care-leavers were given social housing? There is no LHA cap for social housing, or at least effectively no cap because social rents are so much lower than private.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

ymu said:


> I thought all care-leavers were given social housing? There is no LHA cap for social housing, or at least effectively no cap because social rents are so much lower than private.


 
ah sorry, I meant cap on rent paid if they went private.

Don't know about now, but when I was in care, not all care-leavers automatically got social housing


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## ymu (Mar 12, 2013)

That's really shit. I thought we at least gave them some housing security when they have no family to turn to.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

ymu said:


> That's really shit. I thought we at least gave them some housing security when they have no family to turn to.


 
Nope. I applied to the council and a HA at the same time. HA offered me one within weeks (but said I had to take first one offered, which turned out to be a lie, and I hated the place). Council sent a letter to my old place (in care) a year later offering me a place, on a shithole estate, despite me stating I didn't want to live on an estate.

Whilst in care, I heard that some councils (maybe Liverpool was one?) weren't offered one at all. Meanwhile, whilst Lambeth gave you £500 to furnish your accommodation, if you were in Westminster care, you got up to £3000 (think it depended how much you put in yourself), so big differences between councils.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Found this on Shelter



> *Benefits for care leavers over 18*
> 
> When you turn 18 you will be entitled to benefits. You will probably be able to claim housing benefit and either income support or jobseekers allowance. *People who have been in care are exempt from the 'single room rent' rule until the age of 22.*
> Your personal adviser should make sure that you claim everything you are entitled to and can help with the application forms. Any financial help you get from social services should not be deducted from the amount you get.
> ...


----------



## marty21 (Mar 12, 2013)

IDS appears to be backtracking - and the pressure from Labour is getting to him - called them Tar Monkeys  you'd think that he had along enough to get this sorted out - yet less than 3 weeks before it comes into force - he is still tinkering with it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

marty21 said:


> IDS appears to be backtracking - and the pressure from Labour is getting to him - called them Tar Monkeys  you'd think that he had along enough to get this sorted out - yet less than 3 weeks before it comes into force - he is still tinkering with it


 
Panicking ahead of protests this weekend? 

I think the fact that there was barely anything in the press about it 'til the beginning of this year didn't help either as so many people seemed to have been unaware of it.  I was looking regularly last year at news stories about it and there was sod all.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Panicking ahead of protests this weekend?
> 
> I think the fact that there was barely anything in the press about it 'til the beginning of this year didn't help either as so many people seemed to have been unaware of it. I was looking regularly last year at news stories about it and there was sod all.


that too - but these stories about brave soldiers fighting for their country while the country taxes their lovely mums - is piling the pressure on as well - and the stuff about foster parents and disabled children - and the poor poll ratings - with about 2 years of this parliament left - this is probably the last major welfare legislation


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

marty21 said:


> that too - but these stories about brave soldiers fighting for their country while the country taxes their lovely mums - is piling the pressure on as well - and the stuff about foster parents and disabled children - and the poor poll ratings - with about 2 years of this parliament left - this is probably the last major welfare legislation


 
True, and fosters carers and blah blah blah

But where were all these stories last year?  Why did it take the press so long?


----------



## marty21 (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True, and fosters carers and blah blah blah
> 
> But where were all these stories last year? Why did it take the press so long?


 it wasn't urgent last year - there was AGES to go until it hit


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True, and fosters carers and blah blah blah
> 
> But where were all these stories last year? Why did it take the press so long?


 
Why did it take so long for people in general to get onto how pernicious the bedroom tax is going to be? When it was first mooted there was nary a murmer, everyone was going on about workfare - Which, though nasty, is nowhere near as damaging as the bedroom tax.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

marty21 said:


> it wasn't urgent last year - there was AGES to go until it hit


 


Frances Lengel said:


> Why did it take so long for people in general to get onto how pernicious the bedroom tax is going to be? When it was first mooted there was nary a murmer, everyone was going on about workfare - Which, though nasty, is nowhere near as damaging as the bedroom tax.


 
People in general?   Lack of reliable information maybe, hoping the Govt would do a u-turn, busy filling in ESA/DLA forms 

I dunno.

Anyway, turns out there's 5,000 foster carers now exempt.  Not sure of the number of armed forces.



> The changes will mean that about 5,000 approved foster carers will be allowed an additional room as long as they have fostered a child or become a registered carer in the past 12 months.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 12, 2013)

marty21 said:


> IDS appears to be backtracking - and the pressure from Labour is getting to him - called them Tar Monkeys  you'd think that he had along enough to get this sorted out - yet less than 3 weeks before it comes into force - he is still tinkering with it


 
Don't forget he's completely shit at everything though - Remember when he had a crack at being leader of the Conservative Party? And the Sun tried to endear him to the electorate by referring to him as "Smithy"? Not even a footnote in history.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> People in general? Lack of reliable information maybe, hoping the Govt would do a u-turn, busy filling in ESA/DLA forms
> 
> I dunno.
> 
> Anyway, turns out there's 5,000 foster carers now exempt. Not sure of the number of armed forces.


 
Hoping the govt would do a u turn sounds likely to me - I dunno how these things work but I'm sure the lords kiboshed the bedroom tax legislation but the govt steamrollered ahead with it anyway.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Hoping the govt would do a u turn sounds likely to me - I dunno how these things work but I'm sure the lords kiboshed the bedroom tax legislation but the govt steamrollered ahead with it anyway.


 
Twice I think


----------



## trevhagl (Mar 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Why did it take so long for people in general to get onto how pernicious the bedroom tax is going to be? When it was first mooted there was nary a murmer, everyone was going on about workfare - Which, though nasty, is nowhere near as damaging as the bedroom tax.


 
and it's not just the 'scroungers' that will be affected - my mate lives in a 3 bedroom flat - if he loses his job he loses his home too.
Bastards.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

> The Commons has voted to overturn objections to the so-called "Bedroom Tax" from the House of Lords *for a second time*, in the latest twist in the long-running battle within Parliament over the Welfare Reform Bill.
> 
> Last week Peers voted by a majority of ten to introduce a new amendment to the Bill, which would still exempt many families in social housing with a spare bedroom from the cut in benefits. The crossbench peer Lord Best, who was behind the original bid to water down the bedroom tax, made a concession to ministers, and he claimed in the Lords that rather than costing the taxpayer £200m, the total cost would now be around £100m.
> 
> ...


 

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...s-bedroom-tax-lords-amendments_n_1291024.html


----------



## marty21 (Mar 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Don't forget he's completely shit at everything though - Remember when he had a crack at being leader of the Conservative Party? And the Sun tried to endear him to the electorate by referring to him as "Smithy"? Not even a footnote in history.


 yep - his fight back against his Tory enemies was hilarious at the time - still makes me chuckle


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 12, 2013)

trevhagl said:


> and it's not just the 'scroungers' that will be affected - my mate lives in a 3 bedroom flat - if he loses his job he loses his home too.
> Bastards.


 
Absolutely. And I know I've said this before, but for the most part, underoccupied properties tend to be two berth gaffes in tower blocks which aren't suitable family accomodation anyway. People who signed up for those flats will have done so in good faith and now find the rug being pulled from under them.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But where were all these stories last year? Why did it take the press so long?


 
Coz the press is owned by a bunch of tax dodging tory cunts mate!!  The owner of the fail is 'french' for tax purposes. The politicians, press and cops are all intertwined for their own benefit and have been for years


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Coz the press is owned by a bunch of tax dodging tory cunts mate!! The owner of the fail is 'french' for tax purposes. The politicians, press and cops are all intertwined for their own benefit and have been for years


 
So what makes them suddenly start covering it when they would have been aware of it for months?  (No idea how the press works).


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 12, 2013)

I'm not sure anyone knows why the press does things the way it does. Murdoch is a law unto himself but iirc he doesn't like Cameron, plus a lot of old skool tories don't like him.
I'm reliably told a lot of financial backing from old skool landowners has dried up(North England and Scotland) and tbh the tories always turn on each other when the going gets tough. They are unpopular and will blame whoever they can for this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'm not sure anyone knows why the press does things the way it does. Murdoch is a law unto himself but iirc he doesn't like Cameron, plus a lot of old skool tories don't like him.
> I'm reliably told a lot of financial backing from old skool landowners has dried up(North England and Scotland) and tbh the tories always turn on each other when the going gets tough. They are unpopular and will blame whoever they can for this.


 
Like this? 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Cameron-tells-Tory-MPs-tweets-leadership.html


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 12, 2013)

There was also a heap of polls in the Sunday papers(pretty tory sourced) which were deriding Cameron  Methinks the rats are starting to think about the life raft.


----------



## captainmission (Mar 12, 2013)

ymu said:


> This would likely be the quickest way to get it abandoned as the unworkable mess that it is. Anyone who is being charged without smaller accommodation being made available to them has legitimate grounds to appeal. This isn't just about having to move house, it is about having to give up the security of a social tenancy, and having to pay more in private rents in perpetuity (including when back in work and no longer claiming HB).
> 
> It would be a very good campaign for community-minded left groups. Going around and letting people know that they can appeal and offering support to do so.





ymu said:


> Oh, I agree. I'm answering those posters who think this is a no-goer. I don't think the objections are insurmountable, and I'm not at all sure that the DWP have considered this, at ministerial level at least. These Tories are utterly incompetent, so certain they are that their vision of reality is flawless, and IDS has ignored heaps of advice from his mandarins.
> 
> Although I think a legal case might be winnable based solely on the loss of a social tenancy with no alternative social tenancy being offered. Especially for those people who were originally housed with a spare room because nowhere smaller was available. This law effectively means that Scotland has to deport anyone coming out of care, or force them into private renting when they are entitled (AFAIK) to a social tenancy.


 
That's a lovely sentiment but but legally you're talking absolute bollocks. Well intentioned, but legally illiterate community, minded left groups would do nothing but falsely raise peoples hopes before being exposed as charlatans. 

Even if the approach is purely to clog up the local authorities and tribunals pointless appeals this does little but harm other claimants and aid the coalitions by holding payment of benefits. 

So lets say there's a campaign to and the local authority overwhelmed by appeals. Then what? So the housing benefit department responds by doing a review -  basically sending out a stock letter saying under what legislation the bedroom tax deduction was made. It's not a complex process but can be time consuming and mildly costly. A cash strapped local authority is unlikely to lay on extra staff so existing staff get put on dealing with this rather than dealing with new claims or legitimate disputes. Central government don't give a fuck - why would they care so poor bastard has to wait an extra month for his HB claim to be processed? It directly serves the governments agenda of driving down wages.

So it get past review and off to tribunal... and gets stuck out for having no chance of success. Again its a additional admin cost, it holds up others appeals being dealt with. But again if central government is happy for people to wait 12 months for an esa appeal (and they are happy) why would this be a problem?

Trying to clog up the system with appeals does nothing but waste appellants a couple of stamps, hurt other claimants, cost cash strapped local authorities some money and indirectly aid the agenda of the coalition.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

More info for those getting excited about this box room business

http://www.politicsworldwide.com/the-bedroom-tax-a-professional-view/


----------



## RedDragon (Mar 12, 2013)

> Parents whose children live at home but are away on operations with the armed forces will also not be charged for their child's "spare bedroom", as long as their offspring intend to return home. Guardian


I'd imagine most soliders 'intend to return home'.


----------



## free spirit (Mar 12, 2013)

ok, this could be very helpful on the minimum bedroom size issue.

I've just found a few councils who clearly define the minimum sizes they will allow to be classified as bedrooms in various documents.



> Bedrooms
> The minimum floor area for bedrooms to be no less than 7m2 for a single bedroom


[Lambeth]



> Bedrooms / letting rooms that have a separate shared living area and bedrooms in self contained flats:
> 
> 1 person bedroom - minimum size 6.5m2



[Chelmsford]
I know these may not always be directly applicable, but I'd expect that an appeal on the basis of the councils guidance on minimum bedroom sizes ought to stand a decent chance.


----------



## weltweit (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> More info for those getting excited about this box room business
> http://www.politicsworldwide.com/the-bedroom-tax-a-professional-view/





> Until a case is brought nobody knows what the answers to the above questions will be.


It seems a court case is needed to set a precedent.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I'd imagine most soliders 'intend to return home'.


 
It's sort of weird seeing soldiers referred to as children, but I suppose everyone's someone's child


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

free spirit said:


> ok, this could be very helpful on the minimum bedroom size issue.
> 
> I've just found a few councils who clearly define the minimum sizes they will allow to be classified as bedrooms in various documents.
> 
> ...


 
Those measurements mean nothing to me 

What's that in feet if a room was square?


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I'd imagine most soliders 'intend to return home'.




I think it means something along the lines of moving back in with mom and dad.  Maybe some of them plan of living somewhere else when their term is up.


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Those measurements mean nothing to me
> 
> What's that in feet if a room was square?




2.5 meters per side - I think
8.2 feet per side


----------



## coley (Mar 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Absolutely. And I know I've said this before, but for the most part, underoccupied properties tend to be two berth gaffes in tower blocks which aren't suitable family accomodation anyway. People who signed up for those flats will have done so in good faith and now find the rug being pulled from under them.



This is a problem across the country, around Here it usually means the 'two up two down' rows of terraced housing.


----------



## free spirit (Mar 12, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Those measurements mean nothing to me
> 
> What's that in feet if a room was square?


7m2 would be around 7' x 9' I think.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 12, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> I think it means something along the lines of moving back in with mom and dad. Maybe some of them plan of living somewhere else when their term is up.


 
If they survive. If they return with a disability then they'll be out on their ear.
[/flippancy]


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

free spirit said:


> 7m2 would be around 7' x 9' I think.




she wanted a square room.....


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

Libertad said:


> If they survive. If they return with a disability then they'll be out on their ear.




I'd rather think positive.  

Not all people enlisted lived at home with their parents before.  Maybe some were married.


----------



## free spirit (Mar 12, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> she wanted a square room.....


yeah well, I though I might give the dimensions that are a bit more likely - can't say that I've come across many square bedrooms.


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

free spirit said:


> yeah well, I though I might give the dimensions that are a bit more likely - can't say that I've come across many square bedrooms.



Me neither.  I think it would look strange.

2.5 meters per side
8.2 feet per side

I did the math a couple of posts earlier.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> she wanted a square room.....



Well no, rectangular will do as most box rooms are rectangular


----------



## Libertad (Mar 12, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Me neither. I think it would look strange.
> 
> 2.5 meters per side
> 8.2 feet per side
> ...


 
Your arithmetic is faulty.


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 12, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Your arithmetic is faulty.



I used  -> 1 person bedroom - minimum size 6.5m2    from the quote.

I googled and entered the numbers in the little box and pushed "calculate". 

The initial post said "I think"


And the answer is.....

eta:  freespirit used the larger number from the same quote


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 12, 2013)

free spirit said:


> 7m2 would be around 7' x 9' I think.


 
Doesn't give a lot of room to kids if sharing a bunk.  Not much space for a desk to do homework etc. once you've got wardrobes etc. in


----------



## spring-peeper (Mar 13, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Doesn't give a lot of room to kids if sharing a bunk.  Not much space for a desk to do homework etc. once you've got wardrobes etc. in




Maybe they think the bedroom is for sleeping not studying.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

spring-peeper said:


> Maybe they think the bedroom is for sleeping not studying.


 
Well I suppose that's fine if you've got a nice big quiet living room to study in


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2013)

The room size discussion is a red herring for most as HAs/councils up and down the UK are telling their residents that it doesn't matter. Their houses will be assessed by what it says on their tenancies and have no intention to re-classify.


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

I think the protests are going to be significant, as the days get nearer, Eoin has changed his FB tag to Eoin Labour and the scope of the demands seem to be increasingly narrowed to fit in with LP policy, though the anger on FB is incendiary and I think the 'people' will have their say...


----------



## free spirit (Mar 13, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> The room size discussion is a red herring for most as HAs/councils up and down the UK are telling their residents that it doesn't matter. Their houses will be assessed by what it says on their tenancies and have no intention to re-classify.


do you think that all HAs and councils would be going around telling their tenants what potential grounds for appeal they might have?

but yes for most it's unlikely to help as most bedrooms will be bigger than that anyway, but it could possibly apply for a few, which to me would make it worth pointing out.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

treelover said:


> I think the protests are going to be significant, as the days get nearer, Eoin has changed his FB tag to Eoin Labour and the scope of the demands seem to be increasingly narrowed to fit in with LP policy, though the anger on FB is incendiary and I think the 'people' will have their say...


 
I've looked at that list of protests and the numbers look pretty small on some of them (but that's only going by the Facebook pages)


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

yes, but little acorns, and some of the places are small, over 1500 in Bootle recently on a weekday...

500 say they are going in Newcastle...


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

anyone got links to the pics of cam, osborne, Clegg cheering  as the first austerity budget went through?


----------



## Libertad (Mar 13, 2013)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

Was it anything like this?


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

people are already creating their placards for saturday

300 say they are going in Durham!


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

Libertad said:


>


 

great, tx...

hang on, no it was the awful three awhile aback..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

treelover said:


> great, tx...
> 
> hang on, no it was the awful three awhile aback..


 
Not my pic at 607?


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

oh, also need good free dtp utility..


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not my pic at 607?


 

nothing there Minnie...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

treelover said:


> nothing there Minnie...


 
Still?


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Still?


 
yes , its there

just hearing that food banks here are running out of supplies....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

treelover said:


> yes , its there
> 
> just hearing that food banks here are running out of supplies....


 
If it's not that one, how about this one (although no Clegg)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

Interesting read here

http://ukpollingreport.co.uk/blog/archives/7132



> The reason that people tend to be supportive of benefits cuts in general is likely to be related to the fact that they perceive an awful lot of benefits as going to those groups they don’t want to pay for, or indeed for outright fraud. For example, the YouGov polling for the TUC found that on average people thought that 41% of benefit spending went to the unemployed and that just over a quarter of it was claimed fraudulently. The YouGov/Prospect poll found that 29% of people thought that half or more of benefit claimants were lying or deliberately refusing to take work, and a further 39% thought a significant majority were. The general perception is also that benefits are more generous than they are – on average, people think that Jobseekers Allowance is £147 a week (it’s actually £71 a week).


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

this is not surprising, remember the eastern bloc style poster campaign, 'we are onto you' with the targets, things will change...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

*MPs get another £100 to help run their second homes*

*MPs are getting another £100 a year to cover the rising cost of running their second homes within weeks.*

* The cash takes the total amount that can be spent on rent and bills from £20,000 to £20,100 from April 1 this year. *

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...other-100-to-help-run-their-second-homes.html


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

UK Govt are also funding a scheme to help people buy second homes, think it was in the G...


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

http://wearespartacus.org.uk/

Good site


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

"
Hi,

I've heard rumours, and am worried that people actually affected by the bedroom tax might be speaking at this protest. As a mildly agitated liberal, I'm worried I might be offended by the Northern, or god forbid, Yorkshire accents my delicate ears might hear. Could one of the organisers of this protest assure me that no one relevant will be speaking at the protest? I'm really, really eager to hear James Alexander, and only James Alexander, speak about how he's been affected by having to implement, and be in a party that supports a mildly different form of the Bedroom Tax.

I sincerely feel that having people actually affected by this issue speak would be "incendiary" and worry it might make it seem like people are actually angry about this issue.
... 
Yours sincerely,

Andrew.


had to laugh at this posted on FB, dig at LP i think...


----------



## treelover (Mar 13, 2013)

''Go to sleep my babies, close your weary eyes. Eviction day tomorrow cos our house is the wrong size''


poignant one


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

aargh, just read the DM  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...-small-welfare-cut-tax.html?ito=feeds-newsxml


----------



## treelover (Mar 14, 2013)

most of the people who are adding their names to the FB protests are those affected, if you add, the usual suspects, sympathisers, passers by, etc, i think the number will be large on the day..


----------



## Badgers (Mar 14, 2013)

Would almost be funny if MPs gave themselves an extra £1,200 second home allowance eh? 

I mean it would never happen. Would it? Of course not....


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 14, 2013)

Meanwhile, according to Exaro News



> One million landlords dodge tax by not declaring rental income....
> 
> Estimates that the total evasions costs the public purse £550m a year, around a quarter of the revenue due on rental income


 
almost the same figure (£500m) that the DWP is trying to save from the bedroom tax


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 14, 2013)

Actually, that story above is from November last year



> *One in three buy-to-let landlords is dodging tax on their rental income* at a cost of £550million to the taxpayer, Metro has learned.
> 
> About 1million private landlords did not declare any revenue in the past tax year, compared with 1.9million who did, according to the Exaro investigative website.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe another reason why private landlords won't rent to benefits claimants?


----------



## audiotech (Mar 15, 2013)

The crux of the matter:



> The government are publicly requiring people to downsize and then, knowing that the stock is not there, they hope and expect that people will ignore what the government are telling them to do - otherwise they will not make the savings,...
> 
> The government are calling for one outcome but want people to do the exact opposite. We are asking the House not to collude in that false choice.


 
Source.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

The Mirror



> *Bedroom tax backlash: Now even Iain Duncan Smith's own aide tells of fears it will hit vulnerable*
> 
> 16 Mar 2013 00:00
> Ministers Owen Paterson and Alistair Burt and deputy chief whip John Randall have also asked what help is available for those struggling
> ...


----------



## bignose1 (Mar 16, 2013)

Some squaring up in Manchester today between RCG and Labour Party.....didnt help that the LP PA was shite.


----------



## audiotech (Mar 16, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Some squaring up in Manchester today between RCG and Labour Party.....didnt help that the LP PA was shite.


 
The RCG's usual MO in these circumstances.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 17, 2013)

treelover said:


> anyone got links to the pics of cam, osborne, Clegg cheering as the first austerity budget went through?


Is this the one?
http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...aggregation&fb_aggregation_id=246965925417366


----------



## treelover (Mar 17, 2013)

<iframe src="http://www.facebook.com/video/embed?video_id=154312451397921" width="1280" height="720" frameborder="0"></iframe>


Lively event in Newcastle, bit too much sloganeering going by the video..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2013)

Comment in The Mirror from a few days ago



> today i've been told that i am to be offerd an old peoples home (for the over 75's) i'm only 48 but because of my epilepsy thats all they can offer me. i can't take my seizure alert dog they told me that i would have to have him put down ( there exact words not mine) if they think i'm doing that then they can gert lost (put politly). would any of you out there put up with what i've been told. thiunk about it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2013)

and another one



> I think its time for a revolution people of Britain...... I have 2 children boy and girl my son is disabled and needs his own room for his own safety and equipment. But that don't count for nothing as I too will get the tax as well. What get me most angry is last year I was told we could move as my son turns 7 this year so we gave up a new build 2 bedroom house just to be told not even a year later we have to downsize when there's not enough houses and what about moving costs vans, furniture, etc is Mr Cameron going to paying for that as well i seriously doubt it. What makes Mr Cameron think he can have 4 houses but yet we cant even afford to run or live in one. People say its only £14 per week so what happens when your rent goes up which it does every year that £14 will go up as well. I'm ashamed to live in the country as the country is ruled by evil men.


----------



## Dreich (Mar 17, 2013)

I think severely disabled kids are entitled to their own room, but the legislation doesn't define what severely disabled actually means.


----------



## BigTom (Mar 17, 2013)

Dreich said:


> I think severely disabled kids are entitled to their own room, but the legislation doesn't define what severely disabled actually means.


 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/government-faces-36million-bill-bungled-1769421

Seems like they are going to increase the discretionary housing payment (DHP) fund (which stands at £25m after they partially exempted foster carers then took all the money earmarked for them from the DHP fund) by £36m so councils can decide whether a child is severely disabled enough to warrant their own room.
That's more than doubled the money available for what the government sees as reasonable exemptions from their original estimate and more evidence about how few of these cases the DHP will cover.


----------



## RubyToogood (Mar 17, 2013)

Dreich said:


> I think severely disabled kids are entitled to their own room, but the legislation doesn't define what severely disabled actually means.


The government were claiming they were exempt, but actually they were lying. However, they have now been forced to exempt families with a disabled child where the child is unable to share a room due to their disability, because they basically lost a legal case.

There's still no movement on families where the disabled child needs a carer, or has some other reason for needing another room.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

It's all very well exempting kids who might need their own room, but what about the couples who sleep in separate rooms for various reasons because one is ill (a hospital bed taking up most of the space for example)?

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/helena-herklots/bedroom-tax-carers_b_2882817.html?utm_hp_ref=tw


----------



## weepiper (Mar 18, 2013)

Fuck exempting certain groups. It should be scrapped for everyone. Exemptions are just so much more divide and rule.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Fuck exempting certain groups. It should be scrapped for everyone. Exemptions are just so much more divide and rule.


 
Well I agree with that of course


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

FFS 



> The latest issue of Streets Ahead, the newsletter of housing association Eastlands Homes in Manchester has this advice on dealing with the bedroom tax.


 


> “Can you really afford Sky, cigarettes, bingo, drinks and other non essentials?
> If your benefit is being cut and you want to keep your home you have to make up the difference. Non-essential items won’t matter if you lose your home. Start budgeting now – we can help you do this, call us!”​


----------



## sunny jim (Mar 18, 2013)

Brighton council have pledged not to evict any tenants for the bedroom tax! 

http://keepourcouncilhomes.wordpres...cil-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Brighton council have pledged not to evict any tenants for the bedroom tax!
> 
> http://keepourcouncilhomes.wordpres...cil-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax/


 
Keep up sunny jim, posted waaaaaaaaaaaay back 

It's probably only for a year though if they do what Dundee are doing and they'd probably want proof you're skint rather than just letting everyone off the hook for non-payment


----------



## sunny jim (Mar 18, 2013)

Sorry only just heard this about an hour ago and am too lazy to read 644 posts. Its still good though.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

*Urgent news for parents of disabled children renting in private sector – money back from DWP*

http://www.dpac.uk.net/2013/03/urge...enting-in-private-sector-money-back-from-dwp/


----------



## RubyToogood (Mar 18, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> *Urgent news for parents of disabled children renting in private sector – money back from DWP*
> 
> http://www.dpac.uk.net/2013/03/urge...enting-in-private-sector-money-back-from-dwp/


Orly?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

RubyToogood said:


> Orly?


 
If I'm reading it correctly (don't know too much about it myself)



> 9 LAs were previously advised that as a result of the Court of Appeal judgment they could suspend part of the award which allowed for the extra room. For any cases where the LA has suspended for this reason, the suspension can now be lifted and the claimant notified of the revised decision. Arrears must also be paid as appropriate.


----------



## RubyToogood (Mar 18, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> If I'm reading it correctly (don't know too much about it myself)


It probably only applies in limited circumstances, but worth following up.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 18, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS


 
They've issued an apology of sorts in which they admit their ariticle might have been
clumsily worded.

www.eastlandshomes.co.uk/article.asp?id=542&cat=


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 18, 2013)

> *Ian Lavery MP* ‏@*IanLaveryMP*
> A Lib Dem Cllr in Ashington allegedly said of the #*bedroomtax* "it's ok it's only two bottles of wine and a packet of fags"


----------



## RedDragon (Mar 19, 2013)

Further to Frances Lengal's post  ... Eastlands Homes charming advice leaves little doubt as to their general attitude towards the people who pay their wages. (picture from the Mail).


----------



## beeboo (Mar 19, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Brighton council have pledged not to evict any tenants for the bedroom tax!
> 
> http://keepourcouncilhomes.wordpres...cil-no-tenant-to-be-evicted-over-bedroom-tax/


 

No-one has actually given a cast-iron guarantee that they won't evict for bedroom tax arrears. 

Dundee have pledged not to do so for the first year, but bear in mind that it will take the better part of a year to build up over 8 weeks worth of arrears, the pledge isn't necessarily going to make that much difference unless they continue it beyond year 1.

In Brighton & Hove, a councillor (backed by an MP) are planning to put forward a proposal, but the council aren't necessarily going to agree to it.  Nor is it clear how they'd make it work.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 19, 2013)

I have finally started getting tenants ask me about bed room tax, 2 weeks before it starts,I'm only aware of a couple of cases on my estate so far.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 19, 2013)

I've hear sfa from Angus council about the amount I'm supposed to pay. I'm a bit  about it tbh. How can I pay til I am billed?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 19, 2013)

beeboo said:


> No-one has actually given a cast-iron guarantee that they won't evict for bedroom tax arrears.
> 
> In Brighton & Hove, a councillor (backed by an MP) are planning to put forward a proposal, but the council aren't necessarily going to agree to it. Nor is it clear how they'd make it work.


 
The way things are starting to pan out down here, I wouldn't be surprised if evictions do take place.


----------



## Firky (Mar 19, 2013)

> *Ian Lavery MP* ‏@*IanLaveryMP*
> A Lib Dem Cllr in Ashington allegedly said of the #*bedroomtax* "it's ok it's only two bottles of wine and a packet of fags"


 
Ian Lavery isn't a workfare scab either, unlike the rest of his party and supporters.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 19, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The way things are starting to pan out down here, I wouldn't be surprised if evictions do take place.


there will be evictions, I'm hoping for a Scottish poll tax type protest against them


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 19, 2013)

Penny Thompson has got her hand firmly lodged up Kitcat's arse, puppet style!


----------



## treelover (Mar 19, 2013)

''The head of Inclusion Scotland was calling for direct (not just political) action against the bedroom tax at this meeting''

re quoted from SU

bluster?


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Mar 19, 2013)

Hi there, I have written an article/story in response to this hideous bedroom tax that comes into force on 1st April.  I am offering up to groups to use as an event for their members to post anywhere they think it may help raise support to get this callous policy reversed/abolished.  Here is the link to my first blogg and The Bedroom Tax article is the first post http://outrageousfortunesbytaichiitaly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/the-bedroom-tax.html  Hope you find it helpful and if there are any questions or queries, please contact me at my facebook page or on the blogg


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## treelover (Mar 19, 2013)

nice one..


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Mar 20, 2013)

Thank you treelover! I was a little worried about posting the blogg link and your 'likes' cheer my soul. Please feel free to post it wherever it will help bring this government down!!! Here's another one on today's Budget of disaffection http://outrageousfortunesbytaichiitaly.blogspot.co.uk/2013/03/happiness-is-not-budget-day.html

smiling at you


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS


 

Yeah, many  people felt the same so took to twitter and fb to call Eastlands to account, Latent Existance wrote a blog postwhich got circulated on twitter really quickly.

Eastlands responded the next day with a flimsy non-apology and drew a lot of fire....
http://www.eastlandshomes.co.uk/article.asp?id=542&cat=

https://www.facebook.com/Eastlandshomes/posts/495999297103360?comment_id=5119257&notif_t=like

Soooooooooooo people  continued to ask questions and then....

Manchester Evening News
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/eastlands-homes-housing-tenants-fury-1759948 
Scroll back to page one of comments. 

The BBC
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-21835606

ITV
http://www.itv.com/news/granada/topic/eastlands-homes/

Inside Housing
This Morning
https://www.facebook.com/ThisMorning/posts/10151570690627122?comment_id=28855405&notif_t=like

The Wright Stuff
The Daily Mail
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...nants-Sky-TV-cigarettes-bingo-want-homes.html

The Sun
...all picked up the story and this Morning their chief executive saw fit to go on BBCR4's Today programme to apologise and stick up for vulnerable tenants...am waiting for the archive because I missed it...

Not sure they have answered the important questions regarding arrears and evictions policy yet...  but residents and friends will continue asking 

LBC discussion now:
http://www.lbc.co.uk/james-obrien-3537


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## Tai Chi Italy (Mar 20, 2013)

This is brilliant news! I love seeing the 'Power of the People' in positive Action.  I did twitter The Bedroom Tax blog, but I don't use twitter too much and haven't got many followers...twittering this post x


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2013)

Rumour has it that being quoted in the Daily Hate Mail and the Scum really does cause hives but nothing a hot shower doesn't cure.


----------



## marty21 (Mar 20, 2013)

Tai Chi Italy said:


> This is brilliant news! I love seeing the 'Power of the People' in positive Action. I did twitter The Bedroom Tax blog, but I don't use twitter too much and haven't got many followers...twittering this post x


 have shared it on Twitter - and also on Google+ (maybe a few people will read it there - not that busy tbf)


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## treelover (Mar 20, 2013)

40 more BT protests on March 30th, Labour Left heavily involved, though not at ground level and of course they just voted for retrospective Workfare, etc...


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## treelover (Mar 20, 2013)

Manchester on Saturday...

hope the squaddie is an ex squaddie, otherwise he may be in trouble...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> 40 more BT protests on March 30th, Labour Left heavily involved, though not at ground level and of course they just voted for retrospective Workfare, etc...


 
and they support BT


----------



## treelover (Mar 20, 2013)

btw, for all its faults the web and social media is really giving people a voice, there seems to be hundreds of benefits focused sites now and demo's being organised on the FB all over the country..


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2013)

@EastlandsHomes Chief Exec Shelia Doran on #BBCR4 http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b01r9q01 … forward to 1:21 #bedroomtax #apology & #discussion


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Sad and slightly unusual story of a gentleman who was working (and on good money), got cancer, lost his job, couldn't pay his mortgage, sold his house to a HA, and is now liable for bedroom tax. 



> By mid 2012 my savings where used up, i sold my car and other assets i had, trying to maintain my mortgage payments, i applied for jobs that i was sure i was unable to do due to my health, but it became apparent that i would be unable to keep my house. A house that my son was born in and that i lived in for 18 years.
> 
> After advice from CAB i was pointed towards Stockton Borough Council's Housing advice, and it was put to me that the Mortgage Rescue Scheme was the best solution, and was advised to sell my house to a social housing group, the costs would be 10% of the value of my house, in the region £20,000. This would allow me to remain in my home and if successful in applying allow to claim Housing Benefit for rent.


 
http://carcinoid.posterous.com/emailed-letter-to-my-local-mp

As if that wasn't enough, he's now got a letter to attend a WCA even though he's currently got pneumonia


----------



## Tai Chi Italy (Mar 21, 2013)

marty21 said:


> have shared it on Twitter - and also on Google+ (maybe a few people will read it there - not that busy tbf)


Thanks Marty21, its true that the internet gives people wings and a voice to protest such draconian policies.  Much appreciated


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 21, 2013)

> *Anne Toms* ‏@*weegieburger*  34m
> In east renfrewshire 761 households will be affected by *bedroom* *tax*. Families will pay an extra £463 per year for 1 extra *bedroom*.





> *Anne Toms* ‏@*weegieburger*  29m
> East Renfrewshire council suggests there are *NO* unnocupied 1 *bedroom* houses available locally So families move out of area or pay bdrm *tax*


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## Tai Chi Italy (Mar 22, 2013)

What this Tax is boiling down to is Economic Cleansing! Making people move out of the area that their parents and grandparents were born in, just to pay money they cannot afford towards a fund to build new homes for the rich to buy up as second homes. It is immoral and an utterly disgusting policy, even for the Conservatives to think up.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

http://www.itv.com/news/meridian/update/2013-03-22/packing-up-and-shipping-out/

You'd think they'd at least pay her moving costs


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Westminster want same-sex children to share bedroom until they're 22!

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...e-21-year-olds-to-share-rooms/6526273.article


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 22, 2013)

Linked to BT and self explanatory

http://stevedrant.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/cameron-ignores-absolute-poverty-in-the-uk/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Linked to BT and self explanatory
> 
> http://stevedrant.wordpress.com/2013/03/21/cameron-ignores-absolute-poverty-in-the-uk/


 
Yeah, read about that guy left with £11 pw.  Disgusting.   Even if he didn't have to pay BT, would still only have £25 after bills etc.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 22, 2013)

There are going to be people who, if they live in properties with a non-negotiable district heating charge (which can be as much as £15pw) and are having deductions taken from their benefits for budgeting loans etc as well, are going to be left with a _minus_ amount of money if they pay the BT and this new council tax effort.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> There are going to be people who, if they live in properties with a non-negotiable district heating charge (which can be as much as £15pw) and are having deductions taken from their benefits for budgeting loans etc as well, are going to be left with a _minus_ amount of money if they pay the BT and this new council tax effort.


This has crossed my mind as I know some people in social housing who have heating costs as part of their rent. It's all just so shit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Lambeth and Southwark Hardest Hit Boroughs in London

http://swlondoner.co.uk/content/22031639-bedroom-tax-will-push-lambeth-tenants-brink-warns-charity


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Lambeth and Southwark Hardest Hit Boroughs in London
> 
> http://swlondoner.co.uk/content/22031639-bedroom-tax-will-push-lambeth-tenants-brink-warns-charity


I don't know about Southwark, but clearly the way that over the years Lambeth have been flogging off property that would really suit social housing is appalling...and don't start me on their flogging off schools after cynically running them down.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I don't know about Southwark, but clearly the way that over the years Lambeth have been flogging off property that would really suit social housing is appalling...and don't start me on their flogging off schools after cynically running them down.


 
Yep 

The poor are having to pay for their incompetence now


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

I used to be fairly centrist but if things carry on the way they are I can see myself getting violently militant, which shocks me, because it means things have got really shit. I'm in a relatively comfortable position in comparison to many friends and neighbours but I just see the human misery that's being inflicted on others and it makes my blood boil. As it is I have taken in two people on a permanent basis who wouldn't otherwise be here and regularly have a homeless sofa-surfer with serious health problems. I'm grateful to be in the UK when I consider that had it not been for my forebears foresight I could be somewhere really grim but that gap is narrowing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm getting more and more angry and quite frankly, I could (no doubt along with thousands of others) do without the stress


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## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

innit?


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 22, 2013)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I used to be fairly centrist but if things carry on the way they are I can see myself getting violently militant, which shocks me, because it means things have got really shit. I'm in a relatively comfortable position in comparison to many friends and neighbours but I just see the human misery that's being inflicted on others and it makes my blood boil. As it is I have taken in two people on a permanent basis who wouldn't otherwise be here and regularly have a homeless sofa-surfer with serious health problems. I'm grateful to be in the UK when I consider that had it not been for my forebears foresight I could be somewhere really grim but that gap is narrowing.


 
TBH I've never understood why you wouldn't have rather ended up French rather than British. Not having a pop btw, just curious.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> TBH I've never understood why you wouldn't have rather ended up French rather than British. Not having a pop btw, just curious.


Xenophobic and selfish plus extremely arrogant.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

I have black and arab French friends, highly qualified, competent etc who couldn't even get interviews in France and have waltzed into the first jobs they applied for over here.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Mar 22, 2013)

...but given the choice between France and Russia/Belarus I'd grudgingly accept France.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 22, 2013)

Fair enough.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Mar 23, 2013)

I don't know since I've not been following this thread (sorry) if this has been mentioned before, but someone I know who's affected (council tenant) has received this letter from a lettings firm:


> You have been identified by Lambeth Living as being impacted by the 'bedroom tax' for Under Occupancy. This affects people of working age with one or more spare bedrooms who claim Housing Benefit in Social Housing. One way of covering this drop in your Housing Benefit is by becoming a landlord for the Real Lettings Lodging Scheme ... we will be attending your home on Friday to go through this in more detail with you and discuss what the next steps are ...


Meanwhile they are advertising aimed at people looking for a room to rent:
http://www.reallettings.com/page/rent-a-room-in-lambeth/71/123

Is this genuine or is it a scam like the PPI advertising offensive? Has it the support of the local council (Lambeth) or is it just opportunism?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> I don't know since I've not been following this thread (sorry) if this has been mentioned before, but someone I know who's affected (council tenant) has received this letter from a lettings firm:
> Meanwhile they are advertising aimed at people looking for a room to rent:
> http://www.reallettings.com/page/rent-a-room-in-lambeth/71/123
> 
> Is this genuine or is it a scam like the PPI advertising offensive? Has it the support of the local council (Lambeth) or is it just opportunism?


 

I don't know, but i do know when someone came to discuss with a friend of mine, that one of the suggestions was getting a lodger in, so Lambeth must be allowing it, so maybe these people are aware of it.

I'd get in touch with Lambeth and ask if these people are dodgy though

They say they work with Lambeth

*Local Authorities*

Real Lettings has seven years experience of housing homeless people into the private rented sector, helping them settle into and sustain their tenancies and supporting them through changes.

Real Lettings is already working with a selection of Local Authorities in London. One particular pioneering service is our new Tenancy Rescue service, which is currently running with great success in the Lambeth borough. For more detailed information on this service visit our *Lambeth Tenancy Rescue page*.

Services that we are currently offering to Local Authorities include (but are not limited to):


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

Mentioned here as well

http://www.broadwaylondon.org/WhatWeDo/HousingandSupport/LambethTenancyRescueService.html


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## Jean-Luc (Mar 23, 2013)

Thanks.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

Sad to see there's people on Twitter who actually believe that if you take the door off the room, it's no longer a bedroom


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

Average home sizes around the world - UK smallest in Europe










> *The UK builds the smallest homes in Europe, according to the government's adviser on architecture. How do British new-builds stack up internationally?*
> 
> The sofa won't fit into the living room. There's not enough room for children to play in the kitchen as you cook. And where's the recycling bin meant to go?
> 
> ...


 
Maybe on top of the upheaval of moving, the reason many people don't want to move is having that spare room actually gives them a bit of space, but of course, a bit of space is classed as a luxury that they're paying according to those that support the BT.


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## ymu (Mar 24, 2013)

> Bedroom tax: Dragon's Den star Duncan Bannatyne predicts a riot
> 
> The TV favourite compared the spare room supplement to the introduction of the Poll Tax under Tory Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher
> 
> ...


 
Not entirely convinced about his claims to be struggling to _survive_ after his divorce though.


----------



## weepiper (Mar 24, 2013)

http://edinburghagainstcuts.org.uk/?p=677



> Since current social housing regulations mean that the Government pays housing benefit directly to landlords this presents them with a problem, namely how to justify widespread evictions of tenants who have no involvement in the process of paying rent? This new flagship scheme helps to solve the conundrum.
> With those barely keeping their heads above water now directly responsible for paying rent the proportion of them falling into arrears will rise dramatically as the pilot scheme has clearly shown. The result of this? Evictions justified on the basis that those who don’t pay their rent aren’t entitled to accommodation. Two new laws neatly tied together to produce yet another attack on the most vulnerable people in our society.


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## Jean-Luc (Mar 24, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'd get in touch with Lambeth and ask if these people are dodgy though
> 
> They say they work with Lambeth


I've checked and they do work with Lambeth. In fact, according to this letter from the Leader of Lambeth Council to the local Green Party, they sponsor them:



> Councillor Lib Peck's letter to the Chair of Lambeth Green Party
> 
> 
> Dear Mr Bartley,
> ...


I don't know if other councils are adopting this approach.


----------



## treelover (Mar 24, 2013)

ymu said:


> Not entirely convinced about his claims to be struggling to _survive_ after his divorce though.


 

who cares, he is a celeb and will raise the issue's profile, he has talked about poverty issues before,

and no I am not endorsing venture capitalism...


----------



## beeboo (Mar 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Sad to see there's people on Twitter who actually believe that if you take the door off the room, it's no longer a bedroom


 


Jean-Luc said:


> Is this genuine or is it a scam like the PPI advertising offensive? Has it the support of the local council (Lambeth) or is it just opportunism?


 
All these stupid rumours flying round, genuine help is treated with suspicion, everyone is confused.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

beeboo said:


> All these stupid rumours flying round, genuine help is treated with suspicion, everyone is confused.


 
Yep, they brought this bollox in and then changing it right up to the last minute whilst living councils to deal with the fall-out


----------



## treelover (Mar 26, 2013)

http://www.thestar.co.uk/news/local...se-as-sheffield-residents-lose-case-1-5496818


Its not just bedroom tax, due to Pickles localising funding and a 10% cut, people who have never had to pay council tax are now receiving bills of up to 500 pounds, a lot didn't even know it was coming... Sheffield Council has chosen to stop all council tax benefit for thousands of the poorest in the city


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Blimey.   Nottingham council reclassifying tower block accommodation and *very small rooms *(highlighted as may be smaller than normal boxroom size)



> *Changes to Nottingham tower block flat rules*
> 
> *High-rise flats in Nottingham will be classified as one-bedroom, even those with two bedrooms, in preparation for changes to housing benefit.*
> 
> ...


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21931443

Shame they can't do it with all their properties, but I guess they own the block and so it's therefore not going to impact on private property prices?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Another interesting article



> Two years ago I proposed something similar. Nearly 8 million homes in England, I found, had two or more spare bedrooms. But only 11% of this under-occupation was in public or social housing. The rapid growth in half-empty homes, according to the government "is entirely due to a large increase within the owner-occupied sector".
> 
> Because of the desperate shortage of housing, especially for larger families, *I suggested a bedroom tax for owner-occupiers.* It was a much gentler measure than next week's tax, as it would apply only to those with at least two spare rooms and would affect only those most able to pay.
> 
> The response was an explosion of fury in the rightwing press and blogosphere: the places where the current bedroom tax finds its only supporters. In the Telegraph, Ed West remarked that my idea was "far closer to fascism than the ethno-centric populism of the European radical Right … *The state has no business in people's bedrooms – ever." I am still waiting for Ed to denounce the state's intrusion into the bedrooms of the poor.*




http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2013/mar/25/property-theft-bedroom-tax-rich


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2013)

*GOVERNMENT SCRAPPING HOMELESSNESS ADVISORS*



> The government has scrapped its team of expert homelessness advisors despite a dramatic increase in the problem.
> In an email sent earlier this month to councils across England, Communities and Local Government department officials said its expert advisors were to be disbanded from 31 March.
> 
> The team of four regional advisors and two rough sleeper and youth specialists have provided councils with expert consultancy guidance on how they should meet their statutory homelessness duties - a service described as ‘valuable’ by council bodies - since 2007.
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Mar 29, 2013)

Fife Council which is a minority Labour run council with support form Tory and Independent councillors  has passed a motion saying they won't evict for Bedroom Tax arrears



> 2 Agrees:
> 
> 2.1 An increase in resources available to support the application of the Discretionary Housing Fund to the maximum level allowed (150%) bringing the Fund in Fife up to a total of £1.087m, funded from the resources previously built in to the council budget to deal with the impact of Welfare Benefit Reform.
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2013)

" Press Release * Press Release * Press Release * Press Release * Press Release *
Harlow Council Tax Benefit Rebels say “Can’t Pay? Don’t Pay!”
As council tax demands drop on the doormats of jobless Harlow households this month, a group of unemployed local people is launching a website advising non-payment. Council Tax Benefit, which was paid both to those without a job and those in low-wage occupations, has been abolished by the government and replaced with Council Tax Support. Those in the town without a job who hitherto paid nothing will now be expected to pay 24% of their council tax.
“The government has decreed that basic benefits will increase at less than the rate of inflation this April, yet suddenly we are deemed able to contribute 24% of our council tax,” said Wat Tyler, spokesperson for Harlow Council Tax Benefit Rebels. “Those on the breadline simply can not afford it. We say: Can’t pay? Don’t Pay!” he added.
The new benefit is administered by local authorities, and the amount of money made available by central government to cover the council tax of those on working age benefits has been cut by roughly 20%. A recent report by the Resolution Foundation found that, of the local authorities that had confirmed their plans, 28% had chosen to absorb central government cuts in council tax support, rather than demand payment from those not in employment.
“Harlow Council had a choice”, Mr Tyler pointed out. “It didn’t have to demand that those without jobs pay 24% of their council tax bills. Twenty years ago, non-payment and protest brought down the Poll Tax, and we can persuade Harlow Council to back down if we all refuse to pay. The ultimate blame, of course, lies with the Conservative-Liberal Democrat government. They are using the recession as an excuse to cut benefits, their objective being to drive down wages and increase profits. Harlow Council Tax Benefit Rebels intends to link up with similar groups in a national campaign of non-payment with the aim of bringing about the restoration of fully funded Council Tax Benefit for all those without a job or on low wages.”



Grass roots campaigns starting about the cuts in council tax benefit.

note, how they are changing the award to 'support' from 'benefit' they are determined to change the language surrounding social security.

btw, forgive me if wrong, but Harlow is not usually known as a hotbed of radicalism?


----------



## treelover (Mar 29, 2013)

" yet suddenly we are deemed able to contribute 24% of our council tax,” said *Wat Tyler*, spokesperson for Harlow Council Tax Benefit Rebels. “Those on the breadline simply can not afford it. We say: Can’t pay? Don’t Pay!” he added."


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 1, 2013)




----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

That's The Cavern...

btw, great to see protest songs again, they are important when done well as this one is...

it also seems a genuine working class political/cultural movement is growing...


----------



## treelover (Apr 4, 2013)

"i just went into my housing office and was told well unfortunately pay up or move, then to make it worse the woman said the best way out of it is to get a job. i told her i was looking for work i even have a degree but cant get a job her colleague said move to London......surely thats not the type of advice they should be giving"

from FB

is this acceptable?


----------



## krink (Apr 4, 2013)

I had been thinking of starting something in my city about this bedroom tax but after looking into it and figuring out what a group could actually do, i'm not sure what the point would be. it's already here and it is unlikely to be changed or dropped - at least not for a few years. there is little you can do apart from not pay it as the only people who can change what constitutes a bedroom is the landlord and in my city that is a housing association and not the council so it's not like you can threaten to vote them out. I then thought well, how about advice? I could collate advice on what the bedroom tax is and how it will effect people's benefits but again, that's not going to do anything to stop it.

I've probably missed something or got something wrong so anyone else tell me what a group could do that would make a difference? cheers.


----------



## junglevip (Apr 4, 2013)

I was talking to an associate yesterday, he told me his problem:

He has MS and was forced out of his one bedroom flat by the council against his will
Moved into a two bedroom flat
Now has to pay the bedroom tax
The person in question can walk about 50m without having to sit down for a rest.

Spiteful, hateful, deceitful bastard mother fucking tories. I hope the time comes when they dont feel safe walking in the streets


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 4, 2013)

junglevip said:


> I was talking to an associate yesterday, he told me his problem:
> 
> He has MS and was forced out of his one bedroom flat by the council against his will
> Moved into a two bedroom flat
> ...


 
Why and when was he forced out against his will?


----------



## junglevip (Apr 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why and when was he forced out against his will?


 
The flat was being demolished iirc, not sure though.  As for when I dont know.  He was sat by the postbox having a rest and I was in the car, it was in passing.... ... .. .


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 4, 2013)

junglevip said:


> The flat was being demolished iirc, not sure though. As for when I dont know. He was sat by the postbox having a rest and I was in the car, it was in passing.... ... .. .


 
Oh right, thought it was bedroom tax related and thought it strange they'd be chucking him into a bigger home.  Hm, shouldn't he have grounds to appeal if that's all they offered him?


----------



## junglevip (Apr 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh right, thought it was bedroom tax related and thought it strange they'd be chucking him into a bigger home. Hm, shouldn't he have grounds to appeal if that's all they offered him?


 
Yeah i think so, but its a lot of trouble for a seriously unwell man that is exhausted all the time as it is. The MP is taking it up but, isn't this type of fund discretionary?

Its a shitty way to treat people nevertheless


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 4, 2013)

junglevip said:


> Yeah i think so, but its a lot of trouble for a seriously unwell man that is exhausted all the time as it is. The MP is taking it up but, isn't this type of fund discretionary?
> 
> Its a shitty way to treat people nevertheless


 
Yeah, but it's only for 3 months (then you have to re-apply), but, I think local councils are allowed to exempt people (at their discretion) but not 100% sure on that


----------



## junglevip (Apr 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, but it's only for 3 months, BUT, I think local councils are allowed to exempt people (at their discretion) but not 100% sure on that


 
I am trying to be more rational and understanding in my old age and believed in "Live by the sword die by the sword". I am trying to be more balanced about things but my inner samurai wants blood. I dont need or want cold rage anymore


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

> Under changes being introduced in October, council house or housing association residents will able to let out their rooms to gain thousands of pounds in tax-free rent, and keep their benefits.
> 
> One council has advised tenants that they can keep up to £4,250 in tax-free income from renting out their spare rooms in an effort to claw back any reduction in benefits they suffer as a result of the so-called “bedroom tax”.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...s-can-rent-out-spare-rooms.html#disqus_thread


 

Might work for a minority of people willing to have a stranger in their homes, but I'd imagine the majority wouldn't


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

> *Bedroom tax is a 'complete failure'*
> 
> *Published by Max Salsbury for 24dash.com in Local Government and also in Central Government, Housing*
> 
> ...


----------



## Dreich (Apr 5, 2013)

Good chance of Edinburgh council adopting a no eviction policy:
http://rickyhenderson.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/edinburghs-no-eviction-policy.html


----------



## ymu (Apr 5, 2013)

krink said:


> I had been thinking of starting something in my city about this bedroom tax but after looking into it and figuring out what a group could actually do, i'm not sure what the point would be. it's already here and it is unlikely to be changed or dropped - at least not for a few years. there is little you can do apart from not pay it as the only people who can change what constitutes a bedroom is the landlord and in my city that is a housing association and not the council so it's not like you can threaten to vote them out. I then thought well, how about advice? I could collate advice on what the bedroom tax is and how it will effect people's benefits but again, that's not going to do anything to stop it.
> 
> I've probably missed something or got something wrong so anyone else tell me what a group could do that would make a difference? cheers.


Knocking on doors of those who might be affected now or in the future, offering advice and support on how to resist if it affects them now. In the immediate situation, the most useful would be support with appeal letters and, in the not so distant future, community resistance to stop evictions.

I wish more of 'the left' were doing this, but they're not AFAICT. Anyone with the time, energy and a few like-minded friends could make a huge difference this way. And good on you for thinking about it, krink.


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## nino_savatte (Apr 6, 2013)

I found this on my Faecesbook timeline this morning.



> Islington Unite, which has just launched a community section, are offering their full support for families hit by the tax including providing squatting “guardians” in the event of a visit from bailiffs.
> Pilgrim Tucker, the union’s community co-ordinator, said: “In the event of someone being evicted we could organise a protest of up to 200 people. If necessary they could all squat in the person’s house for as long as it takes.”
> Critics say the new tax – which came into force on Monday – is unfair, particularly against older people, those with children at university or parents of disabled children who need separate rooms.
> Ms Tucker spoke out after Islington’s Executive Member for Housing, Councillor James Murray, maintained in an interview with the _Tribune_ that there would be no evictions of tenants as a result of the tax if they had nowhere else to go.
> http://www.islingtontribune.com/new...se-home-guardians’-block-bedroom-tax-bailiffs


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

http://www.thisishullandeastriding....tory-18628520-detail/story.html#axzz2Pg7Ko87Q

Some interesting comments on this story.  One points out his exercise bike.  My friend has an exercise bike.  Got it to get him exercise when not well enough to go outside.  Within a month of getting it and using it and being in pain, he was diagnosed with osteoarthritis.  It's still in his living room today.  He's not used it for 6 years.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

*No room to move: Bedroom tax benefit blow hits home*

 5 Apr 2013 07:59 
The Government's welfare reform puts the most vulnerable at risk - we meet the families bearing the brunt of the 'bedroom tax'








Upheaval: Marie Burrows with six-year-old Lalei
Marie Burrows is terrified and angry she could lose her home and end up on the street because of changes to the benefits system that kick in this week.

She has lived in a specially adapted housing association flat in Streatham, South London, for the past 20 years and has just found out she will have to cough up an extra £80 a month in rent.

She can’t afford the new rent and can’t find anywhere else to live in her area – and has been told if she gets into arrears she will be evicted.

Marie has struggled through the past two weeks of sub-zero temperatures without putting her heating on in a bid to save a bit of money towards the extra rent she needs.

“I can’t tell you how miserable that has been,” says Marie, 59, who is in a wheelchair as she suffers from fibromyalgia and severe arthritis and is virtually housebound.

“My arthritis is severe and painful enough. I’ve already had to go through the farce that is the ATOS assessment to ensure I qualify for disability benefit. That took months and I just got that sorted and then I got a phone call from my housing association to say I had to find extra money to make up the shortfall in my housing benefit.

“I didn’t choose to get this ill and don’t want to be in a wheelchair having to rely on benefits. I would love to go back a few years when I was a physiotherapist and earning a decent living.

*“What sense does it make spending thousands of pounds converting my kitchen and bathroom to suit my disability, then moving me to a new place and spending thousands more converting that.*

*“And, then having to spend thousands putting this place right for the next tenant, as the chances of the modifications for me being right for the next person are pretty slim.”*

Marie is just one of the 660,000 householders in Britain who will lose an average £14 per week as the controversial “bedroom tax” cut to housing benefit hits home.

Council and housing association tenants deemed to have more bedrooms than they need face cuts of from 14% for those with one extra room, and 25% for those with two or more, to their housing benefit.

Marie adds: “Moving people like me away from their friends and support network is stupidity. It means I could need more help from the welfare system over the long term.

*“It will also affect the life of a little girl, six-year-old Lalei, a family friend who comes to stay with me most weekends. She has dwarfism and it gives her mum a bit of a break when she stays with me. I have created a little bit of her own space here. She has to share a bedroom with her brother at home.*

“I bet Cameron doesn’t have to turn his heating off or pay tax on all the spare rooms at Number 10.

“This Government has demonised disabled people and is making the masses believe we are the cause of all the financial mess.

“While handing out his tax breaks to his millionaire mates, he is clawing back from the most vulnerable. I paid my way for as long as I could. Do they think anyone would actually choose to be in this much pain and have such a limited life? Fraudulent people have the energy to play the system – whereas genuinely ill people don’t and they get hit hardest.

“I understand the need for cuts and moving people would be fine if, say, a single person was living in a big family house. Or, if they had one-bedroom flats for people like me to move into.

“But this hasn’t been thought out properly. There isn’t anywhere for me to go. And, because of the state of my health, a move would probably finish me off. It’s just disgusting.”

Housing benefit cuts are just one of the harsh measures that are about to hit millions of families hard as the Welfare Reform Act takes its toll on the poorest and most vulnerable.

This will be the biggest shake-up of the system for decades, in a bid by the Government to slice £2billion a year off the welfare budget.
It will see two million of the lowest-income households paying council tax for the first time, an overall limit of £500 per week in benefits and the introduction of Universal Credit, which combines several benefits into one monthly payment.

A survey by Turn2us, part of national charity Elizabeth Finn Care, says there is major concern over a lack of awareness of the changes happening across the welfare system.

More than two-fifths (43%) of people claiming benefits that will be replaced by Universal Credit aren’t aware that their benefits will be affected.

Of those who are aware, more than three quarters (77%) are not confident they know how or when it could affect them and 88% are worried about its introduction.

Meanwhile, more than a third (35%) of those receiving Council Tax Benefit are not aware that they may be required to pay more, or all of their council tax.

This comes as more than two-thirds (68%) have said that they would have to cut back on heating and food if they had to pay more towards their council tax bill.

Alison Taylor, director of Turn2us, said: “Our research findings have confirmed what we have been hearing from the people we help for a number of months; that there is real uncertainty, confusion and concern over the forthcoming changes.

“This is despite the fact that there has been so much work by the Government to simplify the system.

“It is vital that people are armed with information that’s easy to understand and tailored to their situation.”


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> http://www.thisishullandeastriding....tory-18628520-detail/story.html#axzz2Pg7Ko87Q
> 
> Some interesting comments on this story. One points out his exercise bike. My friend has an exercise bike. Got it to get him exercise when not well enough to go outside. Within a month of getting it and using it and being in pain, he was diagnosed with osteoarthritis. It's still in his living room today. He's not used it for 6 years.


 
are you saying they can be dangerous, a pensioner friend of mine who lives in what is basically a shoe box, has asked me to look out for one on local for a, etc.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

treelover said:


> are you saying they can be dangerous, a pensioner friend of mine who lives in what is basically a shoe box, has asked me to look out for one on local for a, etc.


 
No, not at all.  I think maybe he already had osteoarthritis but hadn't noticed it because of other pain/discomfort he had, and because he wasn't walking any distance, but when he got on that, within weeks, he had testicular pain.  Went to doc's who sent him to hospital for scan and they found nothing, so concluded it was referred pain from osteoarthritis in hips.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 6, 2013)

Couple of arrests today in Huddersfield after a Bedroom Tax demo. Apparently they went into Barclays bank nearby, manager paniced, fire alarms got set off. Will update with the details when I know 'em.


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## where to (Apr 6, 2013)

tomorrows papers are saying that 17,000 affected by bedroom tax are blind.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

where to said:


> tomorrows papers are saying that 17,000 affected by bedroom tax are blind.


 
FFS.  Not sure how it is, but I'd imagine it takes a while to learn the layout etc. of a new place.  I've also read of a few people with guide dogs who use their spare box rooms as rooms for their dog

Mrs Magpie


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Couple of arrests today in Huddersfield after a Bedroom Tax demo. Apparently they went into Barclays bank nearby, manager paniced, fire alarms got set off. Will update with the details when I know 'em.


 

Panic!  Poor people coming into the bank!


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## krink (Apr 9, 2013)

ymu said:


> Knocking on doors of those who might be affected now or in the future, offering advice and support on how to resist if it affects them now. In the immediate situation, the most useful would be support with appeal letters and, in the not so distant future, community resistance to stop evictions.
> 
> I wish more of 'the left' were doing this, but they're not AFAICT. Anyone with the time, energy and a few like-minded friends could make a huge difference this way. And good on you for thinking about it, krink.


 
Cheers for the reply, I'm hoping to do something and maybe Thatcher's death might get a few more people motivated. I used to provide advice to people anyway because I work in housing benefits but there are so many changes and we have been so poorly advised, a lot of the staff have no idea what is happening.

For instance, I think the spare rooms that have been adapted by the landlord/social services for disabled tenants are now going to be exempt but I can't find anyone at work who knows if this is true.

There's a huge backlog because of these changes and the ongoing staff reductions. It's bedlam to be honest.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

krink said:


> For instance, I think the spare rooms that have been adapted by the landlord/social services for disabled tenants are now going to be exempt but I can't find anyone at work who knows if this is true.


 
Esther McSlay said if there had been significant adaptations, they may be exempt.  Unfortunately she hasn't provided an interpretation of what is classed as "significant"


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## marty21 (Apr 9, 2013)

now seeing it reflected in rent arrears - on top of the bedroom tax-  there is additional council tax for them as well - saw one tenant who was confused as he had received his first council tax bill - has to pay about £100 this year - his benefits haven't been increased - luckily he is up to date with his rent. Have another case where tenants HB has been reduced (I think because of the bedroom tax) she isn't making up the rent - and stands a good chance of being evicted (as she was already in arrears) and if she is evicted, will be rehoused temporarily as she has kids - at a higher cost to the tax payer


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## campanula (Apr 10, 2013)

um, I am affected - I was a bit unwilling to fess up because there was an ancient thread going on about taking up space in council houses (heaps of dissapproval of those with spare rooms and lots of going on about families as though you don't count if you are 55 and kids are older. At the moment, I have 2 empty bedrooms so have to find £30 a week from my benefits and extra council tax as well. No chance of moving but anyway, my daughter and grandaughter are renting in a student house, my son is living on friend's sofas, my eldest is in a van and I need to know that they can have a room here whenever they need it - which has been quite often, right up until a few weeks ago. Also, I have a partner who will not sign on and has to be living in a caravan - it's all a fucking mess. My daughter and her fella split up because they were homeless with a baby.....a nightmare now, trying to get by somewhere like Cambridge.
Have no idea how I am going to do this!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 10, 2013)

Sorry to hear that campanula.


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## geminisnake (Apr 10, 2013)

I don't know if this will help anyone but it might be worth a look. I didn't realise you might be able to appeal on MH grounds.

http://www.govanhilllc.com/brtax/brtax.pdf


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## Dreich (Apr 10, 2013)

That seems pretty speculative, not sure how likely any of those arguments are to succeed to be honest- though nothing to lose by trying.


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## geminisnake (Apr 10, 2013)

If you don't try you can't win. I'm going to try the MH one. I just need someone to hand it in a get and receipt coz the idea of walking into a council building is pretty  to me atm.


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## weepiper (Apr 10, 2013)

Govan Law Centre are good guys. Hope this works for you gem.


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 13, 2013)

campanula said:


> um, I am affected - I was a bit unwilling to fess up because there was an ancient thread going on about taking up space in council houses (heaps of dissapproval of those with spare rooms and lots of going on about families as though you don't count if you are 55 and kids are older. At the moment, I have 2 empty bedrooms so have to find £30 a week from my benefits and extra council tax as well. No chance of moving but anyway, my daughter and grandaughter are renting in a student house, my son is living on friend's sofas, my eldest is in a van and I need to know that they can have a room here whenever they need it - which has been quite often, right up until a few weeks ago. Also, I have a partner who will not sign on and has to be living in a caravan - it's all a fucking mess. My daughter and her fella split up because they were homeless with a baby.....a nightmare now, trying to get by somewhere like Cambridge.
> Have no idea how I am going to do this!


 
It's a farce, of course parents are going to need to have spare rooms should their adult children need an extended visit. £30 a week's a hell of a lot though, I hope you find a way.

Cambridge though? For some reason, I thought you were from Oldham.


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## Delroy Booth (Apr 13, 2013)

Right here's an update on what happened in Huddersfield t'other day. Two local anarchists were arrested after an attempt to occupy Barclays bank ends with a paniccy manager setting off the fire alarm. One of those arrested was Alan Brooke, respeted local historian and author of an excellent book about the Luddites. He's due in court over it on the 18th this month and there's going to be a demonstration of some kind in support at Huddersfield magistrates court.  Video here:



And also, this from liverpool -

*Cat War* ‏@*ActionDirecte7*  1h
Craig Jones, Lee Marsh and Curtis valley (Kyle Huyton) of the EDL allowed to stay at anti bedroom tax demo by swp






I would like to know more about this incident.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 14, 2013)

http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/04/14/so-much-shte-is-talked-about-the-bedroom-tax/


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## geminisnake (Apr 14, 2013)

I got son to put in my dispute form on Friday. Told my mum, she said 'your grandad would be proud'. That's good enough for me


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## nagapie (Apr 16, 2013)

Woman talking to her friend on the bus today. She was saying how she has to find the extra rent or she's been told she should move up north


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## beeboo (Apr 17, 2013)

If anyone is holding out hope that sending in mass appeals is going to have any impact, these two articles are worth a read:
http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/housing-bodies-slate-bedroom-tax-appeals/6526468.article

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/for-the-record/6526550.article#.UW7HwpbiWXI.twitter

Particularly this section of the second link:



> What is a bedroom is not defined, but there are lots of things in the housing benefit regulations that are undefined. For example there is no definition of what is ‘income’ but this does not cause administrators any problems whatsoever – the scheme has functioned perfectly well for 30 years without it. If a term is undefined then the authority simply applies the long established principles of statutory interpretation (words have their ordinary everyday meaning).
> The legislation on overcrowding defines what a bedroom is for the purposes of working out who is overcrowded. But definitions in one piece of legislation cannot be used in another (this is a well established rule of statutory interpretation), so this definition is not relevant to the housing benefit size criteria.
> The term bedroom has been undefined to give authorities wide discretion. This is helpful for landlords and benefit administrators, but the downside is that it will make it very difficult for challenges to be successful. As long as the authority’s decision for deciding that a particular room is a bedroom is reasonable, judges will not overturn it. Reasonable here only means nominally reasonable (i.e. not wholly irrational), it does not have to be the most reasonable judgement they could come to. So if the authority decides to use the landlord’s data then that will be accepted in almost all cases.
> Appeals are unlikely to clog up the system because a decision of the authority stands (even if it is wrong) until it is overturned. So it does not cause problems in the system at all.
> If cases do go to appeal the judge can decide to group them together if they look similar, and this is likely to happen if people use a standard letter. Again this means that administration is very unlikely to grind to a halt, but it might mean that the time taken to reach a decision about the appeal is greatly slowed down: and justice delayed is justice denied.


 
Edit: having read a bit more around this, I think the "anti-test case" point made by Govan Law Centre seems worth noting though too:

http://govanlc.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/launch-of-glc-toolkit-guide-calling-for.html



> if the[existing court challenges] are successful tenants can only benefit from them for past deductions if they have lodged a ‘Dispute Form’ with their council because of the 'anti-test case rules'.


 
Govan Law Centre have a toolkit you can use to add your argument to a dispute form.  To be honest I think their "my bedroom's not a bedroom because I use it as a playroom/study" etc argument is clutching at straws but their other arguments seem to have *some* chance of a successful legal challenge - unfortunately they probably don't apply to most people affected.


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## captainmission (Apr 18, 2013)

whilst i agree that the idea of clogging up the appeals system with baseless appeals is a really terrible idea that will actively harm claimants (...and misunderstands how local authority funding works... and is completely naive about the the relationship between central and local government) the CIH really should check their facts first. For example there's pretty extensive regulations about what is and isn't income and how its treated and it regularly causes all sorts of problems with the administration of HB.


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## collette guy (Apr 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> As there seems to be little info on here, thought it would be worth doing a thread informing people how it affects them and the sort of people who are going to be affected by this. (For those who insist on not calling it a tax, it is also known as the under-occupancy penalty)
> 
> From the National Federation of Housing


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## collette guy (Apr 19, 2013)

i went to our one stop shop liverpool council today  and they have told us that this under 21 excempt is not true and is one of the many myths going round like the size of the room


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2013)

collette guy said:


> i went to our one stop shop liverpool council today and they have told us that this under 21 excempt is not true and is one of the many myths going round like the size of the room


 
huh?  Where did you get the idea under-21s are exempt?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 19, 2013)

Oh, I've just looked.  Are you talking about under Universal Credit?


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## beeboo (Apr 19, 2013)

captainmission said:


> whilst i agree that the idea of clogging up the appeals system with baseless appeals is a really terrible idea that will actively harm claimants (...and misunderstands how local authority funding works... and is completely naive about the the relationship between central and local government) the CIH really should check their facts first. For example there's pretty extensive regulations about what is and isn't income and how its treated and it regularly causes all sorts of problems with the administration of HB.


 
Agree that the idea that the fact there's no definition of a bedroom is completely unproblematic is about as daft as the idea that's a guaranteed route to overthrowing the bedroom tax. 

To be honest I'm not expert enough about the ins and outs of the system to know exactly what impact appealing is likely to have, but I'm scared that people will put faith in the idea that if everyone appeals the system will break down and they'll all be spared.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 20, 2013)

http://www.chroniclelive.co.uk/news/north-east-news/ed-miliband-makes-no-promise-2821780



> By Adrian Pearson
> *Miliband makes no promise on bedroom tax axe*
> 
> 19 Apr 2013 12:47
> ...


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## BigTom (Apr 20, 2013)

Birmingham - 13.,557 households affected by the BT... 368 available 1/2 bed council properties for them to downsize into.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/new...families-hit-new-2730960#.UW8tGaixTp8.twitter



> More than 97 per cent of households hit by changes to housing benefit in Birmingham may have nowhere else to go, figures have revealed.
> The change, dubbed a “bedroom tax” by critics, is designed to encourage residents to move out of properties with more bedrooms than they need, and into something smaller.
> But figures from Birmingham City Council show that 13,557 households are having their benefit cut, by around £13 a week – while the number of unoccupied one and two-bedroomed council homes currently available is just 368.
> It means there is just one small council property available for every 36 households hit by the cut in housing benefits.


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## audiotech (Apr 20, 2013)

My housing benefit has been reduced by £49.23 a month. Shop-lifting is on the rise I hear.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 22, 2013)

*Council warns tenants of bogus housing letters
South Somerset Council is warning residents not to be taken in by hoax letters sent in its name after a household received a notice claiming a homeless family would be sharing their property.
The letter states the recipient will no longer be entitled to a three bedroom house unless they take part in a scheme where they share with homeless people. It goes on to make remarks the council described as ‘extremely offensive to black and minority ethnic groups’.*

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...gement+22.4.13&dm_i=1HH2,1FJ1Y,7UMUHT,4UXWE,1

Wonder who is behind this little gem then


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 22, 2013)

> *Victory Housing Trust ‘down-sizes’ some homes to help tenants escape bedroom tax*
> 
> *http://www.edp24.co.uk/news/victory..._to_help_tenants_escape_bedroom_tax_1_2163088*


 
Well done Victory, a positive step along with the handful of other HAs/councils which are doing this.....


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## weepiper (Apr 24, 2013)




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## treelover (Apr 25, 2013)

weepiper said:


>




that's actually a good tune in its own right, but with the BT even better..

'where is labour' indeed...


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

spoke to another tenant today - her hb has been reduced by £14pw - she is 59, unable to work, so either has to pay up or her very limited income which is not likely to rise, or move somewhere smaller


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> spoke to another tenant today - her hb has been reduced by £14pw - she is 59, unable to work, so either has to pay up or her very limited income which is not likely to rise, or move somewhere smaller


 
Does she have the money to move? Loads of people do not so they can't even if they want to. :/


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Does she have the money to move? Loads of people do not so they can't even if they want to. :/


 there are incentives within the council to trade down, which I think includes paying for the move - trouble is, she like many others, has been there for years - she feels safe on the estate - and is worried she won't be safe elsewhere


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> there are incentives within the council to trade down, which I think includes paying for the move - trouble is, she like many others, has been there for years - she feels safe on the estate - and is worried she won't be safe elsewhere


 
Not all councils though are paying removal costs, and even then, if they do, you may have to get new furniture to fit place, carpets, curtains etc. which all add up


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## Thora (Apr 25, 2013)

And of course many people can't trade down as there is either nowhere to go, or they need the special adaptions made for them.


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## scifisam (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> there are incentives within the council to trade down, which I think includes paying for the move - trouble is, she like many others, has been there for years - she feels safe on the estate - and is worried she won't be safe elsewhere



Won't she be back to full benefit once she turns 60? So she could either make a hardship appeal or try to make an arrangement to pay the balance off over time. It's about 150 quid even if she has a full year where she doesn't pay it - I can't imagine any judge evicting her for that amount when she's about to get full benefits back so it won't be an ongoing problem.


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not all councils though are paying removal costs, and even then, if they do, you may have to get new furniture to fit place, carpets, curtains etc. which all add up


 true - others I have seen having their hb reduced are tenants who are in big places and their kids have left - they keep the big places so their kids and grandkids can come to visit/stay - which is fair enough - but they could move somewhere smaller and free up the place for someone overcrowded - I have a tenant in a one bed , who has 3 kids, plus a step kid who stays weekends and holidays - she hand her husband sleep in the living room with 2 kids - toddler plus new born, other kid has the bedroom which is shared with the stepkid - she is desperate for even a 2 bed


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Won't she be back to full benefit once she turns 60? So she could either make a hardship appeal or try to make an arrangement to pay the balance off over time. It's about 150 quid even if she has a full year where she doesn't pay it - I can't imagine any judge evicting her for that amount when she's about to get full benefits back so it won't be an ongoing problem.


 I think it will stop being an issue when she turns 60, but £14 a week for the period until she turns 60 could add up (can't remember when she turns 60) will have to check the regs though


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## rioted (Apr 25, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Council warns tenants of bogus housing letters*


Looks like this guy jumped the gun. Man's fake 'relocation' letter to pensioners


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## scifisam (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I think it will stop being an issue when she turns 60, but £14 a week for the period until she turns 60 could add up (can't remember when she turns 60) will have to check the regs though



Do your HA have a policy of not seeking evictions till the tenant's at least six weeks behind? My maths before was off - I went per month instead of per week, doh - but 14 x 52 is 720 quid. That's the absolute maximum debt she could have if her 59th birthday was yesterday. It'll take a while before she's at the equivalent of six weeks in arrears, and by that time she'll be even closer to 60. 

If she paid, say, 2 quid a week from now, and said she'd continue to pay it till the debt was paid off, no judge would evict her.


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Do your HA have a policy of not seeking evictions till the tenant's at least six weeks behind? My maths before was off - I went per month instead of per week, doh - but 14 x 52 is 720 quid. That's the absolute maximum debt she could have if her 59th birthday was yesterday. It'll take a while before she's at the equivalent of six weeks in arrears, and by that time she'll be even closer to 60.
> 
> If she paid, say, 2 quid a week from now, and said she'd continue to pay it till the debt was paid off, no judge would evict her.


 takes a lot longer to seek eviction (I'm with a Local Authority atm) at 4 weeks arrears you can serve a Notice of Seeking Possession - this can take a while if they are on partial hb - my rule of thumb is 4 actual weeks arrears - so if they have to pay £15 out of a £100 rent - then it has to be £400 arrears - which can take several months if they are increasing at £15pw - after the notice there is a 4 week period before you can take further action - time for a tenant to make an arrangment or reduce. If no arrangment is made or they don't reduce , then you issue a warning that we will be applying to court for a possession order, leave it a few weeks for a tenant to make an agreement or clear the arrears - then apply to court for possession, it can take a few months for a court date. At court, we would either get a suspended possession order (suspended as long as they reduce the arrears at the agreed amount) Outright Possession (fairly rare on the first hearing) or the case might be adjourned with liberty to restore (tenant to pay a certain amount off each week) or adjourned generally (you can go back to court later if no payments made)

after all that you can apply for an eviction warrant - if they haven't kept to the terms of the court order to reduce the arrears. The tenant can apply for a stay hearing - and the judge may give them another chance to pay off the arrears - or several chances - I've known tenants having dozens of stay hearings -

if they don't get granted a stay the eviction takes place - the whole process varies in length - a tenant could remain in the property for years in some cases.


----------



## captainmission (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I think it will stop being an issue when she turns 60, but £14 a week for the period until she turns 60 could add up (can't remember when she turns 60) will have to check the regs though


 
People are except when the reach pension credit age- which unfortunately for your lady is gonna be somewhere between 2016-19.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> *there are incentives within the council to trade down, which I think includes paying for the move* - trouble is, she like many others, has been there for years - she feels safe on the estate - and is worried she won't be safe elsewhere


 
This isn't that case for many Marty, those financial incentives and money to move has been withdrawn for so many up and down the country...Many people are trapped!


----------



## scifisam (Apr 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> People are except when the reach pension credit age- which unfortunately for your lady is gonna be somewhere between 2016-19.



Ah yeah, just checked that. I'd thought it was going to take a little longer to come into effect. Under current law it looks like she won't be exempt until early 2016. :-(


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

Marty Many people are reporting that their HAs are going to use section 8. Do you know about this?

http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/section-8-notice-to-quit.htm


The issue is it seems that some HAs are threatening residents that they will enforce section 8 after 8 weeks of BT arrears, not full rent. The problem is so many don't know about these laws and are being bullied/driven to distraction with worry.


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## Jackobi (Apr 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> People are except when the reach pension credit age- which unfortunately for your lady is gonna be somewhere between 2016-19.


 
By which time she could be claiming Universal Credit which does not exempt tenants of working age, unless they already claim pension credit.


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Marty Many people are reporting that their HAs are going to use section 8. Do you know about this?
> 
> http://www.tenancyagreementservice.co.uk/section-8-notice-to-quit.htm
> 
> ...


I'm in a local authority now, afaik, it is business as usual


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## marty21 (Apr 25, 2013)

captainmission said:


> People are except when the reach pension credit age- which unfortunately for your lady is gonna be somewhere between 2016-19.


cheers for the info, can' t see her moving, she seems very timid , and is settled on the estate


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I think it will stop being an issue when she turns 60, but £14 a week for the period until she turns 60 could add up (can't remember when she turns 60) will have to check the regs though


 
Hang on a sec.  I thought it only people of pensionable age NOW were exempt.  I'm sure I read somewhere that it doesn't apply for people *turning *60 in the future


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## scifisam (Apr 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> cheers for the info, can' t see her moving, she seems very timid , and is settled on the estate



I guess she could still try paying a smaller amount each week to show willing. If she can manage that.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I guess she could still try paying a smaller amount each week to show willing. If she can manage that.


 
Lots of people are appealing their decisions, groups online have a first wave, then second wave appeal plan. Many have told their councils/HAs outright that they can not/will not pay...some have asked to pay a nominal amount whilst the appeal is in process.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

Hmmm interesting:



> *Camden council are making it a condition that if you want dhp you must register to downsize.*


----------



## xenon (Apr 25, 2013)

Thora said:


> And of course many people can't trade down as there is either nowhere to go, or they need the special adaptions made for them.



This is the situation with my sister, who uses a wheel chair and lives in an adapted flat.

Rest of family have been trying to tell her she needs to tell the council she sometimes has a carer staying over night. True. If she has to go to an early appoimtnent, is sick etc. I mentioned this before anyway but I need to get more details off her regarding what's happened. She's waiting to hear back after contacting I think. At the end of the day, we'd cover any shortfall if needs be but this isn't the point of course.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/clg-pulls-out-of-mobility-scheme/6526665.article


> The Communities and Local Government department has decided not to fund a new national mobility scheme for social housing tenants.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

> *Claire Kober*
> 
> The arbitrary benefits cap will do little to solve long-term housing problems, says the leader of one of the pilot authorities


 

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/heading-into-trouble/6526610.article


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2013)

> *Debating downsizing*
> 
> *From: Inside edge*


http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/debating-downsizing/6526652.blog


----------



## beeboo (Apr 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Hmmm interesting:




That sounds crazy if true - what about people living in adapted homes etc or with disabilities where downsizing is inappropriate?


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## marty21 (Apr 26, 2013)

The council tax charge hasn't got the publicity that the bedroom tax has - Council Tax Benefit no longer exists - it is now called Council Tax Reduction - meaning that everyone has to pay some Council Tax - it probably varies council to council - but some residents who didn't have to pay any before as they got a 100% rebate, now have to pay about £70 a year or more. So there is a double whammy for residents who now have to pay the bedroom tax and the council tax - taking money out of their pockets at the same time as giving the rich a nice fat tax reduction


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

marty21 said:


> I'm in a local authority now, afaik, it is business as usual


 

My mix up there: I was referring to Ground 8 of Grounds for possession. Do you know about this?


----------



## marty21 (Apr 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> My mix up there: I was referring to Ground 8 of Grounds for possession. Do you know about this?


 what I was saying, is that we have had no instructions on whether or not to pursue an eviction when someone is in arrears as a result of bedroom tax or the new counci tax payments - we continue to take action as we did before.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

I know I shouldn't laugh but ...



> *just had a call from Salix Homes (Salford) she asked me did i know i was in arrears.. i asked her did she know where i was going to magic this money from? lol she started stuttering and i said let's talk about where you think i'm gonna get it from.. you think i should go sell my arse or something? she terminated the call....? go figure!*


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 26, 2013)

> *Section 8 Notices*
> 
> *Section 8 of the Housing Act 1988:*
> 
> ...


 


http://www.tenancyagreement.com/info/Section_8_Notices.asp


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## BigTom (Apr 27, 2013)

marty21 said:


> The council tax charge hasn't got the publicity that the bedroom tax has - Council Tax Benefit no longer exists - it is now called Council Tax Reduction - meaning that everyone has to pay some Council Tax - it probably varies council to council - but some residents who didn't have to pay any before as they got a 100% rebate, now have to pay about £70 a year or more. So there is a double whammy for residents who now have to pay the bedroom tax and the council tax - taking money out of their pockets at the same time as giving the rich a nice fat tax reduction



It does vary from council to council. In Birmingham, all unemployed and some disabled people are being charged 20% council tax, whilst neighboring councils in sandwell, dudley, Solihull, Walsall and Coventry are continuing to cover all of the council tax so nobody in receipt of council tax support is paying anything. They've cut things elsewhere in their budget.

A recent Birmingham council report found that 60% of those affected by the bedroom tax here are also facing paying council tax, so there is a big crossover, which is not at all surprising and why we do need a cumulative impact assessment on benefit cuts

http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor.../council-report-shows-impact-of-benefit-cuts/


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 27, 2013)

> A CEREBRAL palsy sufferer from Bury St Edmunds has asked her MP to foot the bill for her ‘bedroom tax’ - and claim it back on his expenses - as she says the payments would leave her in hardship.


 
http://www.ipswichstar.co.uk/news/b...ed_woman_asks_mp_to_pay_bedroom_tax_1_2168367


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2013)

*Bedroom Tax: 10 ways to beat the levy*

 28 Apr 2013 00:40 

Tips on how you can celebrate a victory over David Cameron and his cruel charges  

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-10-ways-beat-1857935#ixzz2RkIsB5FE


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2013)




----------



## Voley (Apr 29, 2013)

If you've not seen it yet, the National Housing Federation have put together an excellent damning report on the bedroom tax and why they believe it won't work.

It's online here and this is the summary of its findings:



> The report found that:
> ■ there aren’t enough smaller social homes
> available for everyone affected by the bedroom
> tax to be able to downsize
> ...


----------



## weepiper (Apr 29, 2013)

> Marco Biagi‏@MarcoBiagiMSP
> Briefing this morning on bedroom tax in Edinburgh. Records show 3,295 seeking 1-bed flats with council/HAs per year; only 904 available.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 29, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/debating-downsizing/6526652.blog


downsizing is great in theory but as there aren't enough flats to downsize  to,it remains a theory. Until  major house building takes place it will remain a theory If you want to introduce a bedroom tax, you should ensure that the tenants who are under occupying can actually move somewhere smaller, before introducing it.


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 29, 2013)

marty21 said:


> downsizing is great in theory but as there aren't enough flats to downsize to,it remains a theory. Until major house building takes place it will remain a theory If you want to introduce a bedroom tax, you should ensure that the tenants who are under occupying can actually move somewhere smaller, before introducing it.


 
Yeah, I know...was just sharing the article.


----------



## treelover (Apr 30, 2013)

> Marco Biagi‏@MarcoBiagiMSP
> Briefing this morning on bedroom tax in Edinburgh. Records show 3,295 seeking 1-bed flats with council/HAs per year; only 904 available.


 

yes, and some of those won't be very nice or accessible or in dodgy areas..


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## treelover (Apr 30, 2013)

> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tommy-sheridan-set-lead-scotlands-1859213?fb_action_ids=517919561599559&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map={"517919561599559":551961401493035}&action_type_map={"517919561599559":"og.likes"}&action_ref_map


 

Tommy Sheridan elected as chairman/person All Scotland Federation Against Bedroom Tax,

not sure about this...


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## Tom A (May 3, 2013)

I am affected. Was rehoused in 2010 after living in a bedsit for the best part of three years, got this lovely two-bedroom flat even though I only asked and needed the one - however being in a towerblock I recall it now being bad practice to put families in there. I took the flat in good faith, then the Bedroom Tax came. I don't regret taking the flat, and fortunately I am in a position where I am not going to be on the streets soon or forced to move, but it's still unfair.


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## treelover (May 4, 2013)

http://wearespartacus.org.uk/bedroom-tax/bedroom-tax-call-for-evidence/


Spartacus, the disability benefits action research group which did the brilliant report on the last brutal Welfare Bill, is calling for evidence on the Bedroom tax and its affects on disabled and sick claimants..


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## audiotech (May 4, 2013)

Toolkit from Govan Law Centre on challenging the "bedroom tax" decision.


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## mentalchik (May 4, 2013)

The family i spoke about earlier in this thread are now getting their first demands for bedroom tax and the cut in council tax benefit..........


she asked could they therefore move her to a smaller property to be told a blunt NO she can only do a swap with someone and also because in a couple of years her children will merit separate rooms and she'll want a 3 bed again !

so fucked all round really

eta she's only been in her house a year, put there by the same council


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## treelover (May 9, 2013)

> *People facing bedroom tax must change behaviour and manage finances, says councillor*
> 
> By *Becky Barnes*
> May 08, 2013
> ...


 
How are they getting away with this?, this is what it was like pre-war and further back to the Victorian age...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 9, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> The family i spoke about earlier in this thread are now getting their first demands for bedroom tax and the cut in council tax benefit..........
> 
> 
> she asked could they therefore move her to a smaller property to be told a blunt NO she can only do a swap with someone and also because in a couple of years her children will merit separate rooms and she'll want a 3 bed again !
> ...


 
Disgusting, especially since the bedroom tax was proposed over a year ago, you'd think councils would have tried to find her something smaller knowing she'd be liable, but obviously people thought it would never get off the ground


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## BigTom (May 9, 2013)

1,980 applications to the DHP fund in Birmingham - 50% more in the first couple of weeks of April than in the whole of Q1 2011/12. £3m to cover £11m of cuts in benefits.

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/more-1000-tap-birmingham-emergency-3477581 

Good to see that people are applying to the fund, there's around 13,000 households affected in Birmingham though so plenty more that could be put in.


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## scifisam (May 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> How are they getting away with this?, this is what it was like pre-war and further back to the Victorian age...



That article incidentally mentions that tenants with rent debts can't do exchanges. This is also true for my HA and my former HA and I'm pretty sure all others.

Since exchanges take a while to complete even when they find somewhere to exchange to, that means tenants have to pay the top-up even if they're trying to move. Then if they can't pay the top-up, they can't move... : facepalm:

Exchanges by people on housing benefit have always had the small problem that housing benefit pays in arrears and housing associations charge rent weekly, so the tenant will always be in arrears except for one week of the month. It's unlikely that they'll be able to get all the paperwork done in that week, so they have to pay the rent themselves. Several hundred quid on top of moving costs.

When housing benefit then comes through, that account will be in credit. The tenant then has to ask for that money back, which in my experience takes months. In the meantime they have to apply for hb at the new address and will again be in arrears till it comes through.


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## Dreich (May 10, 2013)

Edinburgh council will likely scrap the restriction on moving with arrears, hopefully other landlords will follow suit.


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## mentalchik (May 10, 2013)

scifisam said:


> That article incidentally mentions that tenants with rent debts can't do exchanges. This is also true for my HA and my former HA and I'm pretty sure all others.
> 
> Since exchanges take a while to complete even when they find somewhere to exchange to, that means tenants have to pay the top-up even if they're trying to move. Then if they can't pay the top-up, they can't move... : facepalm:
> 
> ...


 
I pay my HA rent monthly....................it will have to change anyway because i'm sure i heard that they are going to change all the benefit payments to monthly instead of weekly ?


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## BigTom (May 11, 2013)

mentalchik said:


> I pay my HA rent monthly....................it will have to change anyway because i'm sure i heard that they are going to change all the benefit payments to monthly instead of weekly ?


 
yes, Universal Credit will make all payments monthly.


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## Treacle Toes (May 11, 2013)

*Wirral Council hands out less than 2% bedroom tax help money*

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/live...han-2-bedroom-tax-help-money-100252-33315036/​


----------



## audiotech (May 11, 2013)

There will be further moves as well with, as Glenda Jackson spoke of, in a recent parliamentary debate, of a second phase, with 'a tranche of policies that will see social housing tenants paying rents at 80 percent equivalent of the private rented sector and the removal of secure tenancies'.

I received in the post this week a lengthy reply to a letter I sent to my constituent MP from, Lord Freud, and in that, ignoring the disingenuous rhetoric he uses, Freud stated that the coalition governments intention is to review the changes to housing benefit and how this has impacted in 2014/15. This of course will be close to the general election, so the promise of such a review can be taken with a large grain of salt and of course it will be too late for the many who will have been impacted by these changes, leading to increased poverty, homelessness and utter despair.


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## mentalchik (May 11, 2013)

audiotech said:


> There will be further moves as well with, as Glenda Jackson spoke of, in a recent parliamentary debate, of a second phase, with 'a tranche of policies that will see *social housing tenants paying rents at 80 percent equivalent of the private rented sector* and the removal of secure tenancies'.


 
mine is already, after almost six years it's risen 25%


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## Treacle Toes (May 11, 2013)

*Bedroom Tax victim commits suicide*

 11 May 2013 20:45 
Grandmother who had to pay extra £20 a week throws herself in front of motorway lorry and blames Government in tragic note
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-victim-commits-suicide-1883600#ixzz2T131KiMe​


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## Treacle Toes (May 12, 2013)

*The bedroom tax, austerity and death by the political class*

http://www.katebelgrave.com/2013/05/the-bedroom-tax-austerity-and-death-by-the-political-class/


----------



## _angel_ (May 12, 2013)

audiotech said:


> There will be further moves as well with, as Glenda Jackson spoke of, in a recent parliamentary debate, of a second phase, with 'a tranche of policies that will see social housing tenants paying rents at 80 percent equivalent of the private rented sector and the removal of secure tenancies'.


If they want to charge a "market rent" maybe they should start providing a market service.
They seem to forget council houses are un furnished, un carpeted and un decorated. So why should I be paying a rent that assumes fully furnished as a private let?

Even "unfurnished" in a private let assumes an oven, fridge and maybe washing machine. Council lets don't.
Pushing up rents will only increase reliance on housing benefit.


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## yield (May 12, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> Pushing up rents will only increase reliance on housing benefit.


 
Local authorities have no reason to minimise demand for housing benefit as it's paid by central government.

Central government know that with the benefits cap any shortfall is deducted from housing benefit.

So the local authorites are tightening their allocations policies. The end of affordable housing.


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## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

From the Independent: "Revealed: Devastating impact of 'bedroom tax' sees huge leap in demand for emergency hardship handouts for tenants" 

How much more will the public lie back and accept before we really do return to the days of Dickens?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 18, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> If they want to charge a "market rent" maybe they should start providing a market service.
> They seem to forget council houses are un furnished, un carpeted and un decorated. So why should I be paying a rent that assumes fully furnished as a private let?
> 
> Even "unfurnished" in a private let assumes an oven, fridge and maybe washing machine. Council lets don't.
> Pushing up rents will only increase reliance on housing benefit.


 
The very concept of "market rent" is nonsense anyway - I reckon I've probably said this before but how could anyone possibly think it a good idea that such a fundamental need as a roof over one's bonce be left to the vagaries of the market?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 18, 2013)

Tom A said:


> From the Independent: "Revealed: Devastating impact of 'bedroom tax' sees huge leap in demand for emergency hardship handouts for tenants"
> 
> How much more will the public lie back and accept before we really do return to the days of Dickens?


 
You live in Manchester don't you? I can see Bradford Court (on the miners estate) and Humphries Court (in Collyhurst) being demolished over this - They're both blocks that are mainly two and three bed flats.


----------



## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You live in Manchester don't you? I can see Bradford Court (on the miners estate) and Humphries Court (in Collyhurst) being demolished over this - They're both blocks that are mainly two and three bed flats.


I'm in a two bedroom flat in Hulme, on the Shawgreen estate up by the border with Old Trafford. Fortunately as far as my own personal circumstances are concerned I can still make ends meet, and hope to be employed before the year is out.

What's more likely to happen is those places get sold off to the likes of Urban Splash (whom have done up a few towerblocks around Collyhurst and put them out on the private market). Then people will be bemoaning that there isn't enough council flats for people. There also also a lot of derelict and dishevelled towerblocks and council flats in Miles Platting which will either get the Urban Splash treatment or be ripped down and "regenerated", like Hulme was in the 90s. Miles Platting to me seems ripe for development, and seem like a logical place to gentrification to take place after Ancoats, considering it's just a stone's throw away from the Northern Quarter (not agreeing that this is a good thing, but something that's quite likely to happen).


----------



## _angel_ (May 18, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> The very concept of "market rent" is nonsense anyway - I reckon I've probably said this before but how could anyone possibly think it a good idea that such a fundamental need as a roof over one's bonce be left to the vagaries of the market?


If you're a landlord it probably sounds like a good idea.


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## Frances Lengel (May 18, 2013)

Tom A said:


> I'm in a two bedroom flat in Hulme, on the Shawgreen estate up by the border with Old Trafford. Fortunately as far as my own personal circumstances are concerned I can still make ends meet, and hope to be employed before the year is out.
> 
> What's more likely to happen is those places get sold off to the likes of Urban Splash (whom have done up a few towerblocks around Collyhurst and put them out on the private market). Then people will be bemoaning that there isn't enough council flats for people.


 
True, though I can't see Urban Splash wanting Bradford Court though - Too far out of town. But you're right - This is what the net effect of the bedroom tax will be - Some blocks/properties will become unviable - Councils will sell them off/demolish - Even less social housing. Which is definitely the intention of the bedroom tax, it's not about freeing up suitable properties, is it eckers like.


----------



## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> True, though I can't see Urban Splash wanting Bradford Court though - Too far out of town. But you're right - This is what the net effect of the bedroom tax will be - Some blocks/properties will become unviable - Councils will sell them off/demolish - Even less social housing. Which is definitely the intention of the bedroom tax, it's not about freeing up suitable properties, is it eckers like.


What upsets me is that I know that this is going to happen, and many other people do, but people still will just let it happen, or just resort to what is effectively lobbying of the politicians (that is, the very same people that are doing this in the first place, be they Tory or Labour), doing too little, too late. We need mass, sustained and effective resistance, but that's going to take time, and time isn't on our side...


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 18, 2013)

Demo today in Sheffield against Bedroom Tax, lot of leafletting trots about, I even met some workers revolutionary party Trots flogging Newsline which was a first for me, fairly big but not massive. Good speakers. Maxine Bowler led it SWP had a presence although there were a lot of mutterings and people unhappy and resenting their presence. What can you do though? Force 'em out? Heckle 'em? Fuck knows.


----------



## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Demo today in Sheffield against Bedroom Tax, lot of leafletting trots about, I even met some workers revolutionary party Trots flogging Newsline which was a first for me, fairly big but not massive. Good speakers. Maxine Bowler led it SWP had a presence although there were a lot of mutterings and people unhappy and resenting their presence. What can you do though? Force 'em out? Heckle 'em? Fuck knows.


In one of my fouler moods I would have heckled them. But then I have done that with Green Party speakers, telling one to "piss off back to Chorlton" at a demo a few months ago. Admittedly that's not very productive but these people are distractions away from effective action at best, and downright toxic to the movement at worst (that's particularly the case with the SWP, regardless of how many decent people remain in their rank and file).


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 18, 2013)

Tom A said:


> In one of my fouler moods I would have heckled them. But then I have done that with Green Party speakers, telling one to "piss off back to Chorlton" at a demo a few months ago. Admittedly that's not very productive but these people are distractions away from effective action at best, and downright toxic to the movement at worst (that's particularly the case with the SWP, regardless of how many decent people remain in their rank and file).


 
How easy is it going to be for the right-wing press to discredit and smear the entire bedroom tax campaign by it's association with the SWP? They're more than just toxic they're a potential liability.


----------



## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> How easy is it going to be for the right-wing press to discredit and smear the entire bedroom tax campaign by it's association with the SWP? They're more than just toxic they're a potential liability.


It won't be just the "right wing" press, the liberal press (e.g. the Guardian) would also have a field day with this.


----------



## Delroy Booth (May 18, 2013)

Tom A said:


> It won't be just the "right wing" press, the liberal press (e.g. the Guardian) would also have a field day with this.


 
Yup that's true. And btw TUSC are still happily working with the SWP. I wouldn't vote for rape apologists, if they can't win my vote then no wonder they're struggling.

They're a fucking liability. They were out in Huddersfield too last bedroom tax demo we had, including people on the list of shame defending the CC and Delta. But what can you do? On the one hand I felt like kicking off and arguing with them, like I do every time I see them, but on the other hand there's only 30-40 people on the last demo and ok the SWP in Hudds is no more than about half a dozen people (none under the age of 40, all well paid public sector workers or retired PSW's) but how do you get rid of them? Turn the whole thing into a massive public trot-fight? How does that help? A load of bickering trots shouting at each other in the street ffs? I don't know what the answer is but we should be asking these questions, because if the Bedroom Tax campaign grows, which it gradually is doing, and becomes serious enough to invoke the wrath of the press then this is exactly what they'll do to discredit it.


----------



## Tom A (May 18, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yup that's true. And btw TUSC are still happily working with the SWP. I wouldn't vote for rape apologists, if they can't win my vote then no wonder they're struggling.


TUSC seems to be mostly the work of the SP and a few militant trade unionists, mostly from the RMT and PCS, with the SWP getting on board as and when it suits them. I did support them purely because I got pissed off with the Greens over the Brighton betrayal (which the final straw after hearing several things which proved they weren't really champions of socialist resistance). There seem to be a few decent people (all SP) in Manchester, but their main problem is they have tunnel vision regarding what the working class vote is, focusing first and foremost on the unionised workplace, which whilst still important is only one part of the wider working class. Also as you say, in spite of some derisory statements made by SP members, they haven't fully jettisoned the SWP.



> They're a fucking liability. They were out in Huddersfield too last bedroom tax demo we had, including people on the list of shame defending the CC and Delta. But what can you do? On the one hand I felt like kicking off and arguing with them, like I do every time I see them, but on the other hand there's only 30-40 people on the last demo and ok the SWP in Hudds is no more than about half a dozen people (none under the age of 40, all well paid public sector workers or retired PSW's) but how do you get rid of them? Turn the whole thing into a massive public trot-fight? How does that help? A load of bickering trots shouting at each other in the street ffs? I don't know what the answer is but we should be asking these questions, because if the Bedroom Tax campaign grows, which it gradually is doing, and becomes serious enough to invoke the wrath of the press then this is exactly what they'll do to discredit it.


In Manc they were out in force at one of the first Bedroom Tax demos, this was shortly after the CC vindicated Comrade Delta et al, leading to the mass exodus from the party. A few Anarchist Federation activists went out to leaflet people about the truth regarding the SWP, and hecked them, chanting "rape apologist", which lead to one AF comrade nearly having their leaflets snatched off them. There was also the issue of FR!FI! heckling Labour Party speakers, something I have no issue with in principle, but seemed to piss of a lot of people, particularly since the justification for heckling was over matters that were irrelevant to the Bedroom Tax protests.


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## treelover (May 19, 2013)

Delroy, this doesn't look fairly big, was it later in the day?


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## Delroy Booth (May 19, 2013)

Yeah there was more than that right at the start, a lot drifting off and coming and going. Also there was a palestine demo of some sort round the corner at the same time so all the trots were running between the two trying to sell papers.


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## treelover (May 19, 2013)

nice picture


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2013)

There have been some very consecending, pro-gov comments from MPs and journos this week regarding the death of Stephanie Bottrill, claiming that despite her own words being very clear, that welfare cuts are not to blame/can't be linked to her suicide.  The latest from nastiness personified which is Nick Ferrari where he basically blames her children. 

http://www.express.co.uk/comment/co...5/The-real-tragedy-of-the-bedroom-tax-suicide

These people make me sick...they are vile and should read this:

*Social-housing landlords training staff to spot tenants at risk of suicide*

Maintenance workers, call-centre staff and housing officers are being sent on courses after growing problems among victims of austerity reforms

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-spot-tenants-at-risk-of-suicide-8621669.html


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## weepiper (May 20, 2013)

North Lanarkshire Council sending out eviction notices for rent arrears of 50 quid, the bastards 
http://no2bedroomtax.co.uk/2013/05/north-lanarkshire-council-threating-more-evictions/


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2013)

weepiper said:


> North Lanarkshire Council sending out eviction notices for rent arrears of 50 quid, the bastards
> http://no2bedroomtax.co.uk/2013/05/north-lanarkshire-council-threating-more-evictions/


 
*Tutini* ‏@*Tutini2*  44s
@*NLanarkshire* sending residents letters threatening eviction for £50 arrears yet admit shortage of housing http://www.wishawpress.co.uk/wishaw-news/local-wishaw-news/wishaw-news/2013/04/24/north-lanarkshire-council-leader-jim-mccabe-hits-out-as-it-emerges-thousands-facing-bedroom-tax-have-little-chance-of-downsizing-their-properties-76495-33223564/ … …


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## Tom A (May 21, 2013)

Nick Ferrari is one vile piece of shit, my mum has gotten quite upset with what he has said.


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## Dreich (May 22, 2013)

weepiper said:


> North Lanarkshire Council sending out eviction notices for rent arrears of 50 quid, the bastards
> http://no2bedroomtax.co.uk/2013/05/north-lanarkshire-council-threating-more-evictions/


It's not actually an eviction notice, they'd need to take him to court first and before they can do that, the landlord would need to demonstrate it was a last resort and they'd offerred the tenant advice and the chance to pay the arrears up etc. I doubt that letter on it's own would satisfy the pre action requirements that landlords now have to legally follow. Reckon it's either a standard letter sent to folk in arrears, or they're chancing their arms to shit tenants up into paying. Doubt many sherriffs would award a decree for eviction on that level of arrears.


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## audiotech (May 23, 2013)

A Housing Association I worked for briefly (II was too bolshie for a permanent contract) were ordering housing workers to send out arrears letters when it was well known that the arrears were being caused by significant delays in processing Housing Benefit payments, so tenants were being put under pressure and made anxious through no fault of their own. Most who worked there found this practice deplorable. On the other side of the coin the CEO at the time, who had fucked up royally, spending millions on a housing scheme where it turned out no one wanted to live, was paid off with a £60k severance pay and no doubt a generous pension plan to go along with it. To think eventually, in the not too distant future, these Housing Associations will be given and end up managing all local authority rented housing stock and it won't be for the benefit of tenants either, well not in my experience it won't.


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## treelover (May 26, 2013)

> *Epileptic boy evicted by Hackney Homes - despite pleas from medical staff - is fighting for his life in hospital*
> 
> Emma Bartholomew, Senior Reporter Saturday, May 25, 2013
> 11:01 AM
> ...


 
No comment needed, just barbaric


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## Frances Lengel (May 26, 2013)

Has anything about this been posted?
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/24/domestic-violence-bedroom-tax



> A victim of domestic violence who faces losing her council home which has a secure "panic room" is to challenge the government's so-called bedroom tax.
> Lawyers for the woman have issued a claim against Iain Duncan Smith, the work and pensions secretary, after council officials told her she would be charged for having a spare bedroom.
> The woman, who is in her forties and lives in the East Midlands, has had her bedroom door and the surrounding frame strengthened to provide protection against an ex-partner who has threatened to kill her.
> Thousands of pounds have been spent by a women's refuge charity reinforcing window frames and the front door and making the back garden more secure. The loft has been fortified as an additional safe retreat.
> The local council has inspected the three-bedroom property, where the woman and her young son live, and told her she will lose £11.65 a week from her benefits on the grounds that she has a spare room...


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## Frances Lengel (May 29, 2013)

Tenants in a block where one berth flats were converted into two bedders won't have to pay.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...news/tax-break-council-tenants-forced-4026474

These tenants still have one bed tenancy agreements which is the only reason the council are doing anything.



> Manchester council says it has no choice but to strictly interpret the government-set rules and deduct Mr Burton’s housing benefit. But it has promised to make up his loss and that of other tenants affected by the situation.
> A council spokesman said: “We don’t think this is fair, and the city council will honour their original tenancy agreement, absorb the housing benefit shortfall and *ensure they will not accrue arrears for* *circumstances beyond their control.*”


 
Aren't all arrears incurred by the bedroom tax circumstances  beyond the control of the tenants though?


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## CharlieChaplin (May 29, 2013)

not me i still share a room with sibling lol


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## marty21 (May 29, 2013)

discussed bedroom tax with a tenant yesterday - her hb has been reduced because she and her husband are in a 2 bed - she said they don't live as man and wife , and sleep in separate rooms as they have multiple health issues - advised her to appeal - and have referred her to our welfare right advisors - not sure if they will be successful appealing this though.


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## Frances Lengel (May 29, 2013)

I'm sure I read that if a couple split up but still share the same house they don't qualify as having a two bedroom need under BT legislation.


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## Jackobi (May 29, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm sure I read that if a couple split up but still share the same house they don't qualify as having a two bedroom need under BT legislation.


 
They aren't liable as long as they are officially single, no joint benefit claims etc. And the DWP can be fickle about what constitutes being a couple (particularly a separated couple), sharing meals and shopping, watching TV together and other activities may be decreed as leading a couple's lifestyle.


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## _angel_ (May 29, 2013)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/may/29/leeds-council-bedroom-tax-solution

anyone seen this?


> Leeds council has come up with a novel way of sidestepping the controversial bedroom tax: reclassifying more than 800 "spare" rooms in its social homes as "non-specific rooms".
> 
> The creative wordplay means tenants in affected properties are not classed as underoccupying their homes and do not have to pay a surcharge as a result.
> 
> ...


good news if it's true


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## Frances Lengel (May 29, 2013)

Notts council have done a similar thing but only with high rise gaffes.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-nottinghamshire-21931443



> If applicants that would under-occupy were also precluded [from high rises], two-bedroom high rise flats would be extremely difficult to let given the household profile of those seeking accommodation from the council


 - Plus if a property is let _as though_ it's a one bed it should be charged as such.



> A well as classifying all the tower block flats as one-bedroom, the council has ruled any rooms that are smaller than 50 sq ft (4.6m sq), will be considered as studies and not bedrooms.


 - Shows all the councils/HA's bleating "We don't like the bedroom tax, but we've got to implement government policy" up as the useless twats they are. There are ways round the BT if councils & HA's can be arsed.


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## marty21 (May 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm sure I read that if a couple split up but still share the same house they don't qualify as having a two bedroom need under BT legislation.


 


> At the moment there is no provision relating to the Bedroom Tax to allow a member of a couple with a disability a separate room. There is a legal challenge in relation to this, so the outcome of this case may depend on the outcome of the legal challenge. As the law stands at the moment, couples are only entitled to one bedroom even if one or both of them have a disability and require their own room, so the only option would be to apply for a DHP.
> 
> If they are not living together as a couple, that would be a different matter as their benefits would all be worked out separately and they would be counted as two single people. This does not just depend on whether they share a bedroom but on the whole nature of their relationship and living arrangements. It may be hard to argue if they are living under the same roof


 
got this from a welfare advice boffin


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## marty21 (May 30, 2013)

Another case today - a tenant under-occuping by 2 rooms - his HB has been slashed, says he can afford to pay the difference - but is looking into moving somewhere smaller (he is in a 4 bed atm) and he is being assisted by someone in the allocations depat - he was also advised to let out rooms

the only benefit I can see from the bedroom tax if it leads to underoccupiers moving to smaller places, freeing up their larger homes to overcrowded families - but as has been said - there aren't flats to move under-occupiers to - thanks in part to RTB and the 20 odd years of not enough social homes being built


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## treelover (May 31, 2013)

> Samaritans called in over Liverpool bedroom tax suicide risk  31 May 2013 08:07
> City's housing associations say one tenant attempted suicide, with more people becoming distressed and overwhelmed
> 
> http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/liverpool-news/liverpool-bedroom-tax-suicide-risk-4033511


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## marty21 (Jun 4, 2013)

had a list sent to me of all my tenants currently paying bedroom tax - on the estate 22/500 tenants  have been hit - 4.4% ?


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## treelover (Jun 12, 2013)

http://www.facebook.com/AbolishBedroomTaxOrPrepareForBritainsCivilWar2013?fref=ts


Its really hitting people now, just read the stories/links on the great Abolish bedroom tax FB site


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## marty21 (Jun 12, 2013)

I have a couple of tenants who do not wish to move and have started paying the increased rent without much fuss tbh (they haven't contacted me to discuss it)


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## treelover (Jun 12, 2013)

are you saying there aren't many problems yet, or just your experiences, I presume the latter.


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## Delroy Booth (Jun 12, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-22878541

_More than 2,400 council tenants have fallen behind on their rent in Leeds since changes to housing benefit came into effect, a report says._

Just the start this.


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## marty21 (Jun 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> are you saying there aren't many problems yet, or just your experiences, I presume the latter.


there are problems with other tenancies - but these 2 are paying the extra rent - they are both in large places (4/5 bed) and have family who regularly visit - I'm guessing that they are being helped out to pay the extra rent. Some tenants on rent arrears ask us to apply to the DWP  for direct deductions - afaik these will not cover the bedroom tax so they are having problems paying the extra rent


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## weepiper (Jun 14, 2013)

East Lothian Housing Association is writing off bedroom tax payments for some of its tenants

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tena...y+news+14/6/13&dm_i=1HH2,1KNN3,A1TKF1,5EPPK,1



> ELHA is writing off rent arrears at a total cost of about £13,000 a year, equivalent to 0.25 per cent of its rental income. Martin Pollhammer, chief executive of ELHA, said the scheme could even result in savings.
> ‘Trying to collect payments from people who patently have no means to pay them is a waste of our time, money and resources,’ he said.


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## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2013)

audiotech said:


> A Housing Association I worked for briefly (II was too bolshie for a permanent contract) were ordering housing workers to send out arrears letters when it was well known that the arrears were being caused by significant delays in processing Housing Benefit payments, so tenants were being put under pressure and made anxious through no fault of their own. Most who worked there found this practice deplorable. On the other side of the coin the CEO at the time, who had fucked up royally, spending millions on a housing scheme where it turned out no one wanted to live, was paid off with a £60k severance pay and no doubt a generous pension plan to go along with it. To think eventually, in the not too distant future, these Housing Associations will be given and end up managing all local authority rented housing stock and it won't be for the benefit of tenants either, well not in my experience it won't.





Oh this was standard practice when I moved here.

Housing benefit took four MONTHS to be paid here.

I suspect they put council house claims to the bottom of the pile. Then try and evict you. And when you try and enquire about the claim tell you they'll only puil their finger out if u have a court date!

Ffs talk about stress.


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## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2013)

marty21 said:


> there are problems with other tenancies - but these 2 are paying the extra rent - they are both in large places (4/5 bed) and have family who regularly visit - I'm guessing that they are being helped out to pay the extra rent. Some tenants on rent arrears ask us to apply to the DWP  for direct deductions - afaik these will not cover the bedroom tax so they are having problems paying the extra rent




This might sound obvious but can't they set up a standing order the day they get their money?


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## marty21 (Jun 14, 2013)

audiotech said:


> A Housing Association I worked for briefly (II was too bolshie for a permanent contract) were ordering housing workers to send out arrears letters when it was well known that the arrears were being caused by significant delays in processing Housing Benefit payments, so tenants were being put under pressure and made anxious through no fault of their own. Most who worked there found this practice deplorable. On the other side of the coin the CEO at the time, who had fucked up royally, spending millions on a housing scheme where it turned out no one wanted to live, was paid off with a £60k severance pay and no doubt a generous pension plan to go along with it. To think eventually, in the not too distant future, these Housing Associations will be given and end up managing all local authority rented housing stock and it won't be for the benefit of tenants either, well not in my experience it won't.


 the trend is to take council housing back in house - a lot of the ALMOs were effectively managed by HAs as a continuation of contract management - a few ALMOS have already gone back in house - Havering in London is the most recent one I have heard of. I was speaking to an old work colleague who started work there 5 years ago and was told they had a 10 year plan - this week he gets made redundant.

Having worked on rents in Housing Associations, Councils, TMOs, Housing Co-ops, Housing Trusts and private housing trusts, probably the best place to be a tenant if you are in arrears is a Housing Co-op, as they are managed by the tenants and they are least likely to want to evict someone they know - TMOs are similar but the Local Authority has more of a supervisory role on their management. I haven't found HAs to be worse that Councils when it comes to taking legal action for rent arrears.


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## marty21 (Jun 14, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> This might sound obvious but can't they set up a standing order the day they get their money?


 Yep - but if you are on benefits there isn't any extra cash to pay extra rent


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## _angel_ (Jun 14, 2013)

marty21 said:


> Yep - but if you are on benefits there isn't any extra cash to pay extra rent



But they said they wanted to pay out of their benefits direct? Its the same problem isn't it either way?

Or did they think they could get dss to cover the housing costs?


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## marty21 (Jun 14, 2013)

_angel_ said:


> But they said they wanted to pay out of their benefits direct? Its the same problem isn't it either way?
> 
> Or did they think they could get dss to cover the housing costs?


 as far as I can tell - the dss will only cover any non eligible service charges for such things as water rates and heating charges - and then pay £3.60pw towards arrears - they will not cover any reduction in HB as a result of bedroom tax - that might change


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## yield (Jun 14, 2013)

marty21 said:


> as far as I can tell - the dss will only cover any non eligible service charges for such things as water rates and heating charges - and then pay £3.60pw towards arrears - they will not cover any reduction in HB as a result of bedroom tax - that might change


Marty, social workers in the borough you work in are they able to give out crisis loans?

http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/the-great-social-fund-robbery/
http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dwp-trying-to-hide-crisis-loan-replacement/


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## marty21 (Jun 14, 2013)

yield said:


> Marty, social workers in the borough you work in are they able to give out crisis loans?
> 
> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/02/07/the-great-social-fund-robbery/
> http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/03/16/dwp-trying-to-hide-crisis-loan-replacement/


I presume they are, I'm referring those with payment problems to our welfare rights team, I'm guessing social services would get involved if there was a threat of eviction and children are involved, or the tenant is vulnerable in some way.


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## audiotech (Jun 15, 2013)

I have a massive aversion to a group of workers labeled as a "team". Does this "team" make crucial decisions? I very much doubt that. The term "team" is fast become part of a process to ingrain middle-class bull-shit away from workers solidarity. Whilst those outside this "team" orbit are referred to as "Chavs". A non too subtle way to create division and screw everyone at the same time.


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## Nice one (Jun 15, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I have a massive aversion to a group of workers labeled as a "team". Does this "team" make crucial decisions? I very much doubt that. The term "team" is fast become part of a process to ingrain middle-class bull-shit away from workers solidarity. Whilst those outside this "team" orbit are referred to as "Chavs". A non too subtle way to create division and screw everyone at the same time.


 
as long as they meet in caffs


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## audiotech (Jun 15, 2013)

Rode a Lambretta SX200. There was just the two us though, who mistakenly entered a car park full of rockers! Anyway, they're named 'scooter clubs' and some of those these days are well dodgy.


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

One person here who has suffered a heart attack:



> Ms Fairgrieve said she had applied to the council for a temporary discretionary housing payment, but was told to sell her television, DVDs and other consumer electronics first.


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## BigTom (Jul 3, 2013)

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/birmingham-tenants-rent-double-bedroom-4807571

Rent arrears in Birmingham have nearly doubled in 3 months as a result of the bedroom tax

edit: the group which has seen a 91% rise in arrears is only people who are affected by the bedroom tax


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## treelover (Jul 3, 2013)

40 people in the public gallery today as a petition against the bedroom tax was brought to council, think the labour group are not used to opposition, only the faux opp of the limp dems, they were visibly flustered.


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## suki456 (Jul 3, 2013)

My good friend is affected, I'm trying to get him to downsize but he's not in a robust state mentally and moving is stressful even when its out of choice.


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## audiotech (Jul 4, 2013)

...


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> ...


 
Exactly - What the _fuck_ are the council doing (or whoever's subcontracting or however it goes on behalf of the council) employing people in their fifties and sixties as bailiffs?

/ageism? Quite probably but it's really not a job for people nearing retirement age.


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## audiotech (Jul 4, 2013)

I'm looking for the bailiffs thread to post that in, as I'm not sure what that was all about? Can't find it?


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## marty21 (Jul 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Exactly - What the _fuck_ are the council doing (or whoever's subcontracting or however it goes on behalf of the council) employing people in their fifties and sixties as bailiffs?
> 
> /ageism? Quite probably but it's really not a job for people nearing retirement age.


I think the bailiff was 60, the income officer was 59, haven't got a problem with older people having jobs tbf (approaching 50 so I would say that) we are talking about the shooting?  as far as I can tell, it was a housing association property, not council, and one person evictions are not generally dangerous - if there was an issue that they were aware of , the could have arranged for the police to be there at the same time


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## marty21 (Jul 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I'm looking for the bailiffs thread to post that in, as I'm not sure what that was all about? Can't find it?


http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ton-near-strathleven-rd.312400/#post-12369791

this one?


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## treelover (Jul 9, 2013)

> Bedroom Tax - 100 days on: 14,000 Mersey households unable to pay rent
> 5 Jul 2013 10:53
> Some people left with just £5 a month to live on
> 
> ...


 
says it all, maybe soon we will have debtors prisons again..


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## marty21 (Jul 9, 2013)

getting mixed messages about the eviction policy - on one hand I heard that there was a council meeting where it was apparently agreed no evictions for 12 months if down to bedroom tax - on the other hand - we are being told we need to take earlier action for rent arrears -


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## treelover (Jul 9, 2013)

> THE controversial bedroom tax has left thousands of social housing tenants in the region behind on their rent - with some households making themselves homeless to avoid further debts, an investigation by The Northern Echo has found.
> Councils and housing associations have witnessed a sharp rise in the number of tenants in rent arrears since April when changes to the housing benefit system were introduced.
> In the worst cases, tenants struggling to pay their bills are giving up their homes because they can no longer afford them.
> The evidence casts fresh doubt on claims by the coalition Government that its welfare reforms are not causing the levels of misery predicted.
> ...


 

The mainstream media seems to be moving against the B/T, even calling it that, regional papers are publishing very critical and often sad articles such as the one above and in Liverpool, there have also been sympathetic packages from ITV News, Newsnight and tonight, Ch4 news.


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## marty21 (Jul 9, 2013)

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/bedroom-tax-sparks-surge-in-rent-arrears/6527661.article




> It also found disabled households are being worst hit by the bedroom tax, and social landlords in the area stand to lose £22 million this financial year, which it said could be used to build more homes.
> David Orr, chief executive of the NHF, said: ‘The bedroom tax is hurting the most vulnerable people in Merseyside. It is time to face the facts and repeal this unfair policy now.’


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## BigTom (Jul 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> The mainstream media seems to be moving against the B/T, even calling it that, regional papers are publishing very critical and often sad articles such as the one above and in Liverpool, there have also been sympathetic packages from ITV News, Newsnight and tonight, Ch4 news.


 
With rising arrears, homes being left empty cos they can't find anyone to rent them to, not enough smaller houses for people to move into, lots of people who clearly don't have spare rooms caught up with it and reports of increasing homelessness, it doesn't surprise me that they are moving against it. It was always a bad policy idea but now it's playing out as we said, and with the extra costs coming to local councils there's no way it'll save money for the taxpayer even if it does for the DWP.
That's particularly important for the local papers cos they'll have good connections with their councils who will be reporting the downside of things to them and the extra costs they are facing as a result of it.


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2013)

Bedroom tax on C4 news tonight/ atm.


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## audiotech (Jul 14, 2013)

'Bedroom Tax Failing'.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2013)

*The personal petition*, consisting of over 1000 personal letters addressed to the prime minister was delivered to downing street on Saturday.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2013)

> *Unions will back housing staff who refuse to evict people affected by 'bedroom tax'*
> 
> 9:59am Wednesday 10th July 2013 in News  By Mark Smith, Politics reporter
> 
> ...




http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news...se_to_evict_people_affected_by__bedroom_tax_/


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2013)

*Firebrand councillor Billy McAllister resigns from housing association in protest over bedroom tax*



http://www.theglaswegian.co.uk/glas...-in-protest-over-bedroom-tax-102692-23992785/


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## Jackobi (Jul 15, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/tenancies/bedroom-tax-sparks-surge-in-rent-arrears/6527661.article
> 
> "It also found disabled households are being worst hit by the bedroom tax."


 
This isn't news to the DWP, the impact assessment states just that, an estimated 420,000 of 660,000 claimants affected have a disability.

"The impact of the measure on households containing a disabled claimant or partner, suggests that a higher proportion of households containing a disabled person would be more likely to be affected by the introduction of size criteria"

Social sector housing under-occupation – equality impact assessment


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 16, 2013)

Please excuse the length of this C&P, I am sharing from an online action we have to establish just how fucked up the assumption is that people can simply downsize to avoid the BT. 



> Below are the FOI's we (on the Bedroom Tax Action Group) have back so far, can you all please email them to your local newspapers and/or anywhere you think it might get the attention of Joe Public!
> 
> ABERDEENSHIRE COUNCIL
> 1. How many one bedroom properties do you have available to let? 76
> ...


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 17, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *The personal petition*, consisting of over 1000 personal letters addressed to the prime minister was delivered to downing street on Saturday.


 
*Bedroom tax protesters deliver letters on devastating effect on disabled people's lives*

Every single one of those 1,852 letters had been written by a disabled person, or disabled person’s friend or family member
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-protesters-deliver-letters-2057883

Video here:


----------



## nagapie (Jul 17, 2013)

Someone should do a mock up of dead Ivan having to share a bed with his dad.


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## treelover (Jul 18, 2013)

wow....


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## Tom A (Jul 18, 2013)

Now what about this for a catch-22 situation:



> A MOTHER has been hit by the government’s controversial “bedroom tax” as she is in a house deemed too big for her needs — but says she was not allowed to downsize because of rent arrears.


 
She's in arrears, because she's hit by the bedroom tax. She can't rehoused to a smaller home where she isn't affected by the bedroom tax, because she's in arrears.

Any wonder more people are winding up on the streets?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 18, 2013)

Tom A said:


> Now what about this for a catch-22 situation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




She is one of many. Am impossible bind.They knew it would happen too. Evil bastards that they are.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 18, 2013)

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news..._in_Bolton_waiting_for_just_91_one_bed_homes/

*Special report: How 'bedroom tax' has left 11,000 people in Bolton waiting for just 91 one-bed homes*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 19, 2013)

http://www.antibedroomtax.org.uk/20...ews/81-tues-30th-july-rally-to-save-legal-aid

http://www.antibedroomtax.org.uk/20...ction-to-kick-off-protests-around-the-country


----------



## BigTom (Jul 19, 2013)

Birmingham City Council have added £2m to the DHP: http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...droom-tax-discretionary-housing-payment-fund/

It's coming out of the housing revenue account, "operational savings".. 

One thing I didn't realise is how little of the DHP is the DWP reckon is for the bedroom tax, twice as much is expected to go to people being affected by the benefit cap. There's going to be a fair few people in Birmingham affected by the benefit cap but I don't think it was anything like twice as many as the bedroom tax, I think it was less.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 19, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Please excuse the length of this C&P, I am sharing from an online action we have to establish just how fucked up the assumption is that people can simply downsize to avoid the BT.


 


Compare Bournemouth to Greenwich!  Are those Bournemouth figures correct?  They have loads of room.  I can see councils telling everyone to piss off down to Bournemouth.  There'll be plenty of jobs if the weather stays like this for ever


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Compare Bournemouth to Greenwich! Are those Bournemouth figures correct? They have loads of room. I can see councils telling everyone to piss off down to Bournemouth. There'll be plenty of jobs if the weather stays like this for ever


 
Those figures have been given by the LA's after FOI were submitted.


----------



## FNG (Jul 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Compare Bournemouth to Greenwich! Are those Bournemouth figures correct? They have loads of room. I can see councils telling everyone to piss off down to Bournemouth. There'll be plenty of jobs if the weather stays like this for ever


 

lots of former BnBs and ex hotels converted into flats at a guess.


----------



## trashpony (Jul 19, 2013)

London councils have been doing this for years - shoving asylum seekers and anyone else they don't know what to do with to under-occupied cheaper parts of the UK.

We now have the makings of a perfect storm - people living in poverty in shit conditions with no way of improving their situation + criminals who want to exploit people + locals who have no prospect of employment because they've got no experience. Women are being sold, children are being neglected and still London sends them. Once they're here, they're a bit closer to France and aren't London's problem I guess


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 20, 2013)

*Sharing from an email:
*



> Here is an update on the what is happening with the campaign and ways you can get involved.
> 
> TODAY
> Saturday 20th July -
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 22, 2013)

News just in 



> *CORNWALL
> 
> 1 How many one bedroom properties do you have available to Let?
> 
> ...


----------



## Libertad (Jul 22, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> News just in


 


> *14,498 applicants in total requiring 1 bedroom accommodation, including 908 social housing tenants across Cornwall.*


 
Fucking hell.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 22, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> News just in


 
Just think of all those empty homes that are sitting there that are probably only used a few weeks a year by rich Londoners


----------



## marty21 (Jul 22, 2013)

Tom A said:


> Now what about this for a catch-22 situation:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


pretty standard tbf - if you are rent arrears of 6+ weeks you are barred from bidding for properties under Choice Based Letting - she could get over that if the Housing Manager gets involved - the arrears can be transferred to a new tenancy


----------



## Libertad (Jul 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just think of all those empty homes that are sitting there that are probably only used a few weeks a year by rich Londoners


 
Squat. Oh yeah.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 23, 2013)

More...



> *HARINGEY
> 
> Q.1 - How many one beds to let? 6
> Q.2 - how many deemed under-occupying and needing one bed? 2235
> Q.3 - How many already on waiting list for one beds? 4261*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 23, 2013)

marty21 said:


> pretty standard tbf - if you are rent arrears of 6+ weeks you are barred from bidding for properties under Choice Based Letting - she could get over that if the Housing Manager gets involved - the arrears can be transferred to a new tenancy


 

'Can' being the operative word...most won't let people exchange/transfer when they are in arrears!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 24, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> More...


 
FFS


----------



## marty21 (Jul 24, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> 'Can' being the operative word...most won't let people exchange/transfer when they are in arrears!


 Mutual exchange is different though - we can't allow a mutual exchange with more than 6 weeks arrears I think.

This is connected to bedroom tax - a tenant of ours was complaining about a large family in the 5 bed flat next to hers - we know she was pissed off that they got the flat and not one of her family it was explained to her that they were in need to a large flat and they were entitled to it - she then started complaining about members of her family not getting the larger flats they 'deserve' it was then pointed out to her that she was in a large flat she didn't need (4 bed flat - her and her daughter) she is paying the bedroom tax as she doesn't want to move   - she didn't take kindly to this being pointed out to her


----------



## marty21 (Jul 24, 2013)

The whole bedroom tax farce just shows how ham fisted this government is - by all means encourage people to trade down to smaller flats ( there are financial incentives to do this) but forcing people to pay higher rents when they are on low income is a disgrace. There aren't enough flats for all those who need to trade down to smaller places.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 24, 2013)

marty21 said:


> The whole bedroom tax farce just shows how ham fisted this government is - by all means encourage people to trade down to smaller flats ( there are financial incentives to do this) but forcing people to pay higher rents when they are on low income is a disgrace. There aren't enough flats for all those who need to trade down to smaller places.


 
But even some of the financial incentives aren't enough if you end up having to buy new carpets, curtains, furniture etc.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 24, 2013)

'Bedroom Tax - the first hundred days'.



> If just 10% of households in the Merseyside were to request smaller accommodation, the outcome would actually be to increase the social housing waiting list by 5.6%, the polar opposite of the expressed intention. In South Teesside, it has been estimated that it would take 37 years to move all under occupying households into one bedroom accommodation given the shortage of this type of property. The other alternative is to move them to private accommodation, which would cost £500,000 per year which is far greater than the cost of keeping them in their current homes.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 25, 2013)

'Man cuts throat with knife in Runcorn benefits office in protest bedroom tax.'


----------



## marty21 (Jul 25, 2013)

There is a high court challenge to the legality of the bedroom tax - that must be close to delivering a decision on that


----------



## marty21 (Jul 25, 2013)

*Leigh Day* ‏@*LeighDay_Law*2h
#*BedroomTax* judgment will be handed down next week on Tuesday 30 July 2013, at 10:00am at the Royal Courts of Justice in London.


according to someone on twitter - judgement is due next week


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 25, 2013)

marty21 said:


> There is a high court challenge to the legality of the bedroom tax - that must be close to delivering a decision on that


 

It has taken weeks already...we are still waiting, SOON, I hope.

Edit: Just saw the last post. Thank you!


----------



## Quartz (Jul 26, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Please excuse the length of this C&P, I am sharing from an online action we have to establish just how fucked up the assumption is that people can simply downsize to avoid the BT.


 

Bloody hell!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 28, 2013)

Oi, oi Hayley!


----------



## BigTom (Jul 30, 2013)

Same story from another HA - arrears up, no possibility of finding enough smaller properties for people to move to, larger properties becoming difficult to let, will be left empty as a result.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-network/2013/jul/29/bedroom-tax-first-100-days?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23494074



> *Disabled families await housing benefits cuts ruling*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## FNG (Jul 30, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Same story from another HA - arrears up, no possibility of finding enough smaller properties for people to move to, larger properties becoming difficult to let, will be left empty as a result.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-network/2013/jul/29/bedroom-tax-first-100-days?CMP=twt_gu


 

 The logical progression of this will be to convert larger properties into multi-let flats, depleting the variety of accomodation available for social housing further.Another nail


----------



## marty21 (Jul 30, 2013)

BigTom said:


> Same story from another HA - arrears up, no possibility of finding enough smaller properties for people to move to, larger properties becoming difficult to let, will be left empty as a result.
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/housing-network/2013/jul/29/bedroom-tax-first-100-days?CMP=twt_gu


 read that - didn't surprise me at all tbf - a clumsy ill thought out policy - basically attacking the vulnerable


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2013)

> *Rescue plan for benefit cuts put on standby*
> Annaliese White and Kevin Garly: have already had to cut back on basic food
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/news/politics/article3827998.ece


If anyone has a Times subscription and can paste the full article that will be appreciated! 

Bastards that they are already have a plan B...I hope the judge has the gumption to call this what it is!!!


----------



## marty21 (Jul 30, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hallenge-dismissed-by-high-court-8737725.html

court bid failed


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jul 30, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hallenge-dismissed-by-high-court-8737725.html
> 
> court bid failed


 
What? Can they appeal?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hallenge-dismissed-by-high-court-8737725.html
> 
> court bid failed


 
Why am I not in the slightest bit surprised


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 30, 2013)

What's the betting Lord Justice Laws has a state subsidised room for his wig and gowns?


----------



## Roadkill (Jul 30, 2013)

marty21 said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...hallenge-dismissed-by-high-court-8737725.html
> 
> court bid failed


 
Fuckit.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2013)

Haven't had time to go through the ruling myself yet but just spotted this comment:



> Davis Eowyn
> copied from a friend re the review
> It's far from being a total loss.
> 1 - The children have won their case.
> 2 - The adults have been found to have been discriminated against, but that it was justified. That opens a massive door for that to be overturned on appeal, whereas if the judge had found no discrimination had occurred, it would have been a disaster.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 30, 2013)

*Bedroom Tax Judgment to be appealed*

Lawyers vow to fight on after losing part of their battle on overturning the Government's 'Bedroom Tax'




30 July 2013
Lawyers representing adults and children with disabilities who are challenging the Government’s ‘Bedroom Tax’ have vowed to fight on after today losing part of their High Court battle to halt the controversial new housing benefit regulations that came into force on 1st April this year.


http://www.leighday.co.uk/News/2013/July-2013/Bedroom-Tax-Judgment-to-be-appealed


----------



## Sprocket. (Jul 30, 2013)

These lousy bastards want hounding till they drop!
How on earth do they manage to sleep in one of their five en-suite bedrooms.
And then I just heard some chinless twat from the government say, '' This has had to happen because of the mess and debt we inherited from the last government!
I hope the judge who hears the appeal has something resembling a conscience, but then again he will probably be an old school chum!


----------



## captainmission (Jul 30, 2013)

The full ruling can be found here http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2013/2213.html


----------



## Anonymous1 (Jul 30, 2013)

My sis received an eviction-threatening letter as she owed sixty notes due to this.
No polite reminder, just straight to putting the shitters up her.
I'm sure that'll help her mental health, fuckers!



And Breathe!


----------



## marty21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Anonymous1 said:


> My sis received an eviction-threatening letter as she owed sixty notes due to this.
> No polite reminder, just straight to putting the shitters up her.
> I'm sure that'll help her mental health, fuckers!
> 
> ...


just to put your sister's mind to rest - presuming she is a social housing tenant, the eviction process does take several months - even longer in some cases - sounds like she has just had the first arrears letter - this is followed (where I work but pretty standard elsewhere) by a notice of seeking possession , then an application to court, then a possession hearing - usually the first court hearing is either adjourned on terms, or a suspended possession order is granted - after that is the application for an eviction warrant, before the eviction a tenant can apply for a stay hearing and come to an arrangement to repay - I know of one tenant who has been to about 9 stay hearings and had 9 eviction dates and is still in her home (unusual case tbf) there are plenty of ways to delay the process.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2013)

marty21 said:


> just to put your sister's mind to rest - presuming she is a social housing tenant, the eviction process does take several months - even longer in some cases - sounds like she has just had the first arrears letter - this is followed (where I work but pretty standard elsewhere) by a notice of seeking possession , then an application to court, then a possession hearing - usually the first court hearing is either adjourned on terms, or a suspended possession order is granted - after that is the application for an eviction warrant, before the eviction a tenant can apply for a stay hearing and come to an arrangement to repay - I know of one tenant who has been to about 9 stay hearings and had 9 eviction dates and is still in her home (unusual case tbf) there are plenty of ways to delay the process.


 
Whilst it may be reassuring to know she's not at imminent risk of eviction, I'm sure what's going on in the background is enough to stress anyone out


----------



## marty21 (Jul 30, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Whilst it may be reassuring to know she's not at imminent risk of eviction, I'm sure what's going on in the background is enough to stress anyone out


 yep - it ain't good out there in housing land atm


----------



## Anonymous1 (Jul 30, 2013)

marty21 said:


> just to put your sister's mind to rest - presuming she is a social housing tenant, the eviction process does take several months - even longer in some cases - sounds like she has just had the first arrears letter - this is followed (where I work but pretty standard elsewhere) by a notice of seeking possession , then an application to court, then a possession hearing - usually the first court hearing is either adjourned on terms, or a suspended possession order is granted - after that is the application for an eviction warrant, before the eviction a tenant can apply for a stay hearing and come to an arrangement to repay - I know of one tenant who has been to about 9 stay hearings and had 9 eviction dates and is still in her home (unusual case tbf) there are plenty of ways to delay the process.


 


Yep,she is. Cheers for that.
When she thinks logically, she knows it's a standard threat tactic but that doesn't stop her (and many in the same situation) going into a panic 'til she gets reassurance.

Just a (bit long) side note, i was threatened with eviction before i had moved into my current place as my bedroom ceiling collapsed in due to a neighbour's burst pipe. Got chased for arrears i wasn't due etc. Got it dealt with but still ended up owing about 100 quid.
They started taking a few pounds a week 'til it was sorted.
Except i just noticed they were still taking it a few weeks ago. After phoning them it turns out they now owe me two hundred!
Where was my letter demanding i get down there to collect my money?

Nothing to do with bedroom tax but everything to do with double standards!


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2013)

> The Mass Sleep Out 24th Aug 2013
> https://www.facebook.com/MassSleepover


 

something positive happening on the 24th,


----------



## trampie (Aug 4, 2013)

The bedroom tax is all part of the austerity measures, if the people that can and morally should pay more tax don't because of greed then cuts will be made, would we see the same cuts in an independent Scotland or Wales ?, some people say it wouldn't happen in those countries if they were independent, Thatcher won, the politics of greed won, there will need to be a lot more disadvantaged than well off for things to change.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 4, 2013)

trampie said:


> The bedroom tax is all part of the austerity measures, if the people that can and morally should pay more tax don't because of greed then cuts will be made, would we see the same cuts in an independent Scotland or Wales ?, some people say it wouldn't happen in those countries if they were independent, Thatcher won, the politics of greed won, there will need to be a lot more disadvantaged than well off for things to change.


You're quite right and the sooner you lose your advantages the better


----------



## treelover (Aug 4, 2013)

> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-neighbours-form-ring-2122123
> 
> *Bedroom Tax: Neighbours form ring of steel to help foster mum ruined by levy*
> 
> ...


 
more positive action, hope they are neighbours

great to see The Mirror cover grassroots action


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 4, 2013)

treelover said:


> more positive action, hope they are neighbours
> 
> great to see The Mirror cover grassroots action


 
The Mirror has been a great support actually and have treated people from the online groups/local organisers very well.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 8, 2013)

http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/...ord-reports-86-arrears-rise-since-bedroom-tax




> *Evictions loom as social landlord reports 20% arrears rise since bedroom tax*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## treelover (Aug 13, 2013)

> Jo Christman
> Does anyone in England know that from September, all sheltered housing, ie flats, bungalows with Wardens is no longer being classed as "sheltered" with no Wardens to be employed to look after the bed ridden, the disabled, the very old? this has been kept very quiet because there is NO ONE to speak out for the elderly. Damm the Tories, Please share. There will be more people dying this winter and who will know ?and mostly who cares?


 

slightly OT, anyone know anything about this, posted on FB


----------



## audiotech (Aug 13, 2013)

Most of 'sheltered housing', has and is being turned into 'extra-care schemes' with a lot more staff on-site than 'sheltered housing' ever had. There maybe some that for location reasons, or not being able to develop sufficiently enough to be reclassified as 'extra-care schemes' being 'turned into flats', but as the age limit can be as young as 55 for 'sheltered housing' I can't see anyone being left without care and "bed ridden", so yes facebook exaggeration likely.


----------



## weepiper (Aug 30, 2013)

> A MAN driven to despair by the bedroom tax attempted suicide in a council housing office yesterday.
> Staff looked on in horror as tormented Lawrence Keane slit his wrists in a reception area after asking for help with rent arrears he had run up as a result of the hated tax.
> The vulnerable 58-year-old said: “I stood up and asked them if they wanted my blood because that’s all I had left to give. I started hacking at both my arms.”


 
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/tenant-slits-wrist-housing-office-2237582

Poor sod. Look at his flat ffs, is this a man that can afford an extra £14 a week? Lived in his flat for 14 years and there's nowhere else to go even if he wanted to move. An old man. Bastard Tories.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Aug 30, 2013)

Is there much disquiet about other HB changes? I find the fact the tories have capped HB for anyone under 35 to the local housing allowance just as vicious and yet I don't see that included alongside bedroom tax protests, unless I've missed it of course. I myself live alone and I at least get a 3 month reprieve to find a job in that time and/or make alternative accommodation arrangements, thankfully the former is close to being sorted but make alternative arrangements? What with one might ask? I don't have money to put down a deposit, pay agency fees etc and even then most landlords won't have tenants on HB. If that job falls through I will be screwed, I'll still have enough to keep the roof over my head and pay (most) bills once 3 months are up, but after all expenditures I'll be left with about 20 quid a month for food.

I also know someone who's been diagnosed with a chronic illness, again they got the 3 month rule but what do they expect? Get better in 3 months? After that then what? If you look at local housing allowance rates they're woeful, the only rents I've seen that it will cover are grotty, rat infested box rooms and even then it only just covers that. It's all very well saying 'make alternative arrangements, get a job etc' but the labour market, as we all know, is fucked and where exactly are people supposed to move to and what with? Again I don't see much disquiet about this, it's all focussed on the bedroom tax.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2013)

> BIRMINGHAM CITY COUNCIL - How many 1 beds available to let? 49
> How many already on list for 1 beds? 10,163 !!!


 


> Look at Bolton.....Bolton Council.- How many 1 beds available? 13. How many already on list for 1 beds? 11,025


 

More FOI responses...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 30, 2013)

> *OLDHAM
> 1. How many one bedroom properties do First Choice Homes Oldham have available to let? - 22
> 2. How many tenants are deemed to be under – occupying, and needing one bedroom accommodation? - 2417
> 3. How many people are already on the waiting list for 1 bed properties? - 6259*


----------



## BigTom (Aug 31, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> More FOI responses...


 
have you got a link for the Birmingham one? I can probably google it tbf, that's a lower number than we got told earlier this year, although I think that was for 1 and 2 beds.

Here's a story from a Birmingham resident, terminal cancer patient, facing eviction in a few weeks as she can't pay and doesn't want to move when she's likely to die in less than a year. Not that there's likely to be anywhere for her to move to.

http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wordpress.com/2013/08/30/defeat-the-bedroom-tax/


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 31, 2013)

trampie said:


> The bedroom tax is all part of the austerity measures, if the people that can and morally should pay more tax don't because of greed then cuts will be made, would we see the same cuts in an independent Scotland or Wales ?


 

SNP have already said they will do away with the BT if we vote for independence next year. Afaik they are the only ones who have.


----------



## Fedayn (Aug 31, 2013)

trampie said:


> The bedroom tax is all part of the austerity measures, if the people that can and morally should pay more tax don't because of greed then cuts will be made, *would we see the same cuts in an independent Scotland or Wales* ?, .


 
Yes, or do you think they will be immune? As an aside Salmond has now accepted the notion of a benefit cap even in an independent Scotland.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

Not this twat with an eight bedroom country house in Kent worth £1.9 million, whose reportedly told Scots with motor neurone disease to take in a lodger or have their benefits cut.


> The audacity the UK Government have to suggest that those suffering from MND must rent out a room in their house or face financial penalty is a draconian policy at best and is no burden that any person in such circumstances should have to bear.


----------



## ddraig (Sep 4, 2013)

apparently someone from the UN coming over to see how the tax is impacting on human rights

http://www.partyofwales.org/news/2013/09/04/plaid-mp-welcomes-un-scrutiny-on-bedroom-tax


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

People are in dire straights, with the disabled and some in such despair they're topping themselves. What's to see? It needs condemning and scrapping right now for what is. An outright attack on the poor, dressed up as a "choice" - a false choice - given many have nowhere to go to avoid its punitive, malicious intent.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 4, 2013)

Here's how it's going in Manchester

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...tizens-advice-bureau-research-reveals-5831149



> A spokesman for the Department for Work and Pensions said the shake-up will improve the lives of the poorest, with the Universal Credit – which will replace a string of benefits later this year – making three million  people better off. She added: “*Reform of housing benefit was absolutely necessary to keep housing benefit costs under control* and there should be no presumption that housing benefit will always pick up the bill in areas of high and rising rents.



Never mind that the BT will do the exact opposite.


----------



## campanula (Sep 4, 2013)

I pay £31 (25%) bedroom tax, also, £10.29 because the council demand payments in advance although benefits are paid in arrears so this is deducted to bring me up to date and also another £10.18 to cover £389 arrears (although this figure varies so much I cannot keep track). Also, £3.75p.w. Council Tax is now deducted at source and another £5 per week to pay for the(obvious) arrears.  More than half of my benefits, gone, to Cambridge City Council. Every letter states a different amount including threats of summons and court cases. My arrears and debt varies from £43 arrears to £997 arrears while council tax is utterly impenetrable. It is all completely obtuse, confusing and if you go to speak to an 'advisor', they are totally clueless since whatever their computer screen says, it will not necessarily tally with another part of the 'system'. A year ago, I could survive on benefits (although obviously, I don't drive, go out, have holidays or buy stuff apart from food) as I narrowly managed to hang on to my Incapacity for another year but now, so much  goes to the council, leaving me with fuck all. Naturally, there are no available small houses (with garden) and all of my 3 children are insecurely housed and need to know there is always a bed in their family home.
Never have I felt so despairing and dread winter. I cannot bring myself to open any more letters from them (the council).
I do have a horsebox in Norfolk, but to be honest, this would not be a way of life I could see myself managing in....and as for children and grand-daughter?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2013)

Bastards.


----------



## xenon (Sep 5, 2013)

I don't post in this thread much or read it too often either TBH. My disabled sister's still effectd. Disgressionary fund taking care of it ATM.

Burn the cunts that thought of this. Is that wrong? No really, burn them.


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2013)

just read that Gove thinks a teenager should have his or her own room in order to study effectively, obviously that doesn't apply to BT victims.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 10, 2013)

Glasgow council and Police Scotland have refused permission for a rally and march from Glasgow Green to the Lib Dem conference at the SECC. The organiser of the Bin the Bedroom Tax campaign is pretty cross; he's going to march by himself from his house in Paisley (that's ten miles away btw)


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Glasgow council and Police Scotland have refused permission <snip>The organiser of the Bin the Bedroom Tax campaign is pretty cross; he's going to march by himself from his house in Paisley (that's ten miles <snip>


So much for freedom of speech.  Good for that man, although he really shouldn't have to do it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 10, 2013)

> By David Clegg
> * Bedroom tax: Ray of hope for thousands as two women celebrate landmark victory over hated Con-Dem levy *
> 10 Sep 2013 07:35
> ANNIE Harrower-Gray and Louise McLeary successfully launched a legal battle against the controversial tax and won.




http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bedroom-tax-ray-hope-thousands-2263218


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 10, 2013)

Loads more there too.


----------



## captainmission (Sep 10, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/bedroom-tax-ray-hope-thousands-2263218



You can see the ruling in full here - http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/2013/09/of-bedrooms-that-arent/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 10, 2013)

treelover said:


> just read that Gove thinks a teenager should have his or her own room in order to study effectively, obviously that doesn't apply to BT victims.



He meant to say "only rich teenagers"


----------



## weepiper (Sep 10, 2013)

Apparently the front page of tomorrow's Guardian:


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## BigTom (Sep 11, 2013)

Dunno about the guardian but that story is in the mirror today.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 11, 2013)




----------



## audiotech (Sep 12, 2013)

_UN official hits back at Tory MPs._

Edit: Media statement by the Special Rapporteur to the UK.


----------



## treelover (Sep 12, 2013)

All power to Raquel, the Tories are rattled..


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Sep 12, 2013)

treelover said:


> All power to Raquel, the Tories are rattled..



Not really. They've thrown their toys out of the pram a bit but it's not gonna do anything. The British state went against the U.N and bombed another sovereign state back to the stone age ten years ago, it's hardly going to give a flying fuck about turfing out a bunch of disabled plebs onto the street is it?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2013)

*Nick Clegg Left Tongue-Tied After 'Bedroom Tax' Challenge From Sick Woman (VIDEO) *
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/09/12/nick-clegg-bedroom-tax-challenge_n_3912419.html?utm_hp_ref=fb&src=sp&comm_ref=false





> *[URL='https://www.facebook.com/julia.jones.798?hc_location=stream']Julia Jones*





> *Today I am so peed off and angry. After 12 months of hard campaigning the media are still getting in wrong. The Telegraph - the BT does not affect foster carers, the disabled or the armed forces - yes it does. The Mail - as nobody will be found intentionally homeless if they get evicted, the council will find them a property, nobody will be left homeless - yes they will. Councils only have a duty of care to a certain group of people. Are the media being deliberately misleading are are they really too stupid to report the facts?*


[/URL]


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## Doctor Carrot (Sep 13, 2013)

Starts at 17:29. He gives the same mealy mouthed bollocks we've all heard before. That Nick Ferrari came across as a wanker too 'can't you put your oxygen concentrators in the bedroom/hallway?' Even if she could it still doesn't stop the fact she would be forced to uproot herself, move everything she owns into the private sector because there's a shortage of accommodation and all while she's suffering from a serious illness.  Won't save any money and it won't elevate overcrowding, it will in fact cost more money in housing benefit as I'm sure we all know.  It's the most vicious social policy I've seen in my lifetime.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2013)

> *Joe Halewood
> 
> READ THIS!!! Judge rules that a room less than 70 square feet is NOT a bedroom. This could take 165,000 households out of the bedroom tax. If you have a so-called bedroom of less than 70 square feet appeal now as this is HUGELY SIGNIFICANT and you would be a fool not to appeal http://wp.me/p1vuvL-JB*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2013)

Maybe the Govt will just change the law on bedroom sizes to get around it


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)

Anecdotal reports coming in that some bigger familes are reluctant to take up the 'newly vacated' properties as they fear they may end up getting evicted themselves if their circumstances change.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 14, 2013)

I have posted this on both related threads to let folk know the total shite that Labour are.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-24090772


----------



## free spirit (Sep 14, 2013)

Think I'll take that as vindication of my earlier posts on this thread.

I love it when government departments and ministers find out that UK law actually does apply to them and they can't just make up the rules as they go along with no consideration of prior guidance or legal precedent.

As my mate who works in DWP puts it, the government are shit at legal stuff because they can only afford to employ shit lawyers, anyone half decent will never work for the money the government pays.



free spirit said:


> IMO a bedroom should be minimum 70sq ft, as below this is only suitable for a child under 10, and it's nuts to expect a family to have to move house because their child is now too big for the tiny little box room they'd been sleeping in before.
> 
> these are absolute minimums, but I'd be extremely surprised to find a court upholding a bedroom tax on a room smaller than 70 sq ft.
> 
> This isn't my area though, so it's possible there is an updated version of this, if not then it should still stand legally as a minimum.





free spirit said:


> oh, I would.
> 
> In the absense of any other legal definition the court would almost certainly look to any other relevant legislation, and apply a reasonableness test to it, so is it reasonable to be charged for a room as a bedroom that is smaller than would be defined as a bedroom under the housing act... I don't see that it is.
> 
> Obviously this would depend on some organisation with some finances stepping in to front the legal costs, but I'd be very surprised if such a challenge wasn't successful.


----------



## free spirit (Sep 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe the Govt will just change the law on bedroom sizes to get around it


they can't just do that for the bedroom tax purposes though.

well, they could, but it would cause all sorts of other problems as they can only really have one single definition of an acceptable bedroom size, so if they change the law for this reason, then it would also end up applying to new builds etc... or maybe they'd think that was another win for big money as well.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 19, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...acing-eviction-after-bedroom-tax-8825074.html

*Exclusive: 50,000 people are now facing eviction after bedroom tax*


----------



## treelover (Sep 19, 2013)

B/T is definitely going up the political agenda, just needs more people on the ground, etc


----------



## marty21 (Sep 19, 2013)

connected to the savage cuts - I spoke to a tenant today, who is having to pay £50 a week extra as her HB has been cut by that amount - due to the benefit cap - she is a single parent with 3 kids  - it is due to start at the end of the month after the LA agreed to not impose it for 4 weeks


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 23, 2013)

> *Housing Benefit
> 
> Urgent Bulletin
> 
> ...



https://word.office.live.com/wv/Wor...title=DWP+removal+of+bedroom+tax+23092013.doc


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 27, 2013)

> *UN stands by 'bedroom tax' protester after Shapps complaint*
> * The United Nations has backed one of its officials who criticised the Coalition’s “bedroom tax” after insisting she did so in full consultation with the British Government. *


*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...oom-tax-protester-after-Shapps-complaint.html*


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 27, 2013)

*Bedroom tax defeat for Westminster council in landmark case*
Barrister Surinder Lall, who is blind, wins appeal as his spare room stores essential equipment and has never been a bedroom

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/sep/26/bedroom-tax-westminster-council-defeat

DWP scum may appeal against the decision though.



> The council, which had decided in March to cut what the government calls the spare room subsidy element of Lall's housing benefit, did not attend the hearing and will not appeal, although the Department for Work and Pensions has said it may do so.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 1, 2013)

*Glasgow judge finds bedroom tax breaches human rights *

http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/lega...oom-tax-breaches-human-rights/6528844.article


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 4, 2013)

*Disabled woman wins "bedroom tax" appeal against North-East council*

http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/ne...appeal_against_North_East_council/?ref=twtrec


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 6, 2013)

> *Bedroom tax deal wins Northern Ireland a four-year reprieve*



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...ern-ireland-a-fouryear-reprieve-29633007.html


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2013)

> On March 8, 2012 the Welfare Reform Act received Royal Assent but. Since welfare and benefits are a devolved matter, it cannot be extended here without Stormont's agreement. The catch is that the amount we receive from Westminster to cover welfare costs is based on payments in England. So if we introduce our own system to protect people from the cuts we would have to make up the shortfall from cuts elsewhere, and we would have to pay for a new computer system to administer it.


 
Good news, didn't know this, so IB and DLA still exist in NI


----------



## marty21 (Oct 7, 2013)

looks like one of my tenants has had her bedroom tax overturned - allowed to treat one of the rooms as for a carer - just got £500 HB back - which is nice


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 8, 2013)

It's about freeing up larger properties remember? 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/11000-birmingham-chasing-75-one-bedroom-6151057


* 11,000 in Birmingham chasing 75 one-bedroom council flats *
 8 Oct 2013 06:00 
City authority diverts £2m from housing budget to help people struggling to pay 'bedroom tax'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 8, 2013)

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/news-opinion/joe-riley-david-camerons-bedroom-6151511


* Joe Riley: Cameron’s bedroom tax is coming home to roost *
 7 Oct 2013 15:57 
ECHO columnist has his say on 'the most hated Tory invention since the so-called Thatcherite community charge'


----------



## treelover (Oct 8, 2013)

thanks for keeping us all informed


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## audiotech (Oct 9, 2013)

Petitioning Ed Miliband, leader of UK Labour Party
Ed Miliband, leader of UK Labour Party: Present Emergency Motion in Parliament to Abolish the Bedroom Tax - NOW, not after 2015!

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...utm_medium=facebook&utm_source=share_petition


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2013)

FOI:



> *CARDIFF COUNCIL
> 
> *1. How many one bedroom general needs properties do you have available to let this week?* 71.*
> 2. How many tenants are deemed to be under-occupying, and needing one bed accommodation? *350.*
> 3. How many people are already on the waiting list for one bedroom properties? *4,844.*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2013)

*
573 South Tyneside tenants hand in keys as tax fears grow


A HOUSING boss fears the creation of ‘wilderness areas’ in South Tyneside after a sharp rise in tenants ending their council tenancies.*

New figures show that between April and July this year, 573 tenants handed back their keys – up 139 on the same period last year.

http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/...ants-hand-in-keys-as-tax-fears-grow-1-6122288


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 9, 2013)

*Dudley Council votes to scrap the bedroom tax*

DUDLEY Council last night approved a motion to urge the government to abolish the controversial bedroom tax.

Members of the *Labour-controlled council voted 37-27 in favour of calling on the government to axe its spare room subsidy* which means council tenants with spare bedrooms must downsize or see their housing benefit cut.

http://www.dudleynews.co.uk/news/local/10724300.Dudley_Council_votes_to_scrap_the_bedroom_tax/

27 absolute %7**^!


----------



## BigTom (Oct 9, 2013)

Birmingham also passed a motion yesterday to say the same.

edit: I thought this had been reported by the BIrmingham Mail but I can't see it, heard about it from people who were there: http://birminghamagainstthecuts.wor...-tax-unfair-unworkable-and-counterproductive/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 11, 2013)

*More support for No Evictions from councillors and RMT Gen Sec, Bob Crow*
Posted on October 10, 2013 by Councillors Against Cuts
Support continues to flow in from councillors across the country for a clear line of ‘No eviction of Bedroom Tax victims’.

http://councillorsagainstcuts.org/2...s-from-councillors-and-rmt-gen-sec-bob-crowe/


----------



## marty21 (Oct 11, 2013)

I work for a local authority - no action has been taken yet on my team against a bedroom tax victim - I have asked for written instruction from my boss - who will not give it as he is terrified of making such decisions


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2013)

NO surprise but 



> *Bedroom tax: savings likely to be '£160m less than official projections'*
> Analysis suggesting savings could be £160m less than official projections of £480m dismissed as 'vested interests' by employment minister



http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/oct/14/bedroom-tax-ministers-likely-savings?CMP=twt_fd


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2013)

More recent peddling of this ol' chesnut!



> * MP: Struggling with the rent? Take in a lodger! *
> 9 Oct 2013 09:36
> Yardley MP John Hemming says tenants hit by 'bedroom tax' could make money from spare room



http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/john-hemming-calls-tenants-take-6160494


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2013)

*Port Tennant mum fears being first bedroom tax eviction in Swansea*

Read more: http://www.thisissouthwales.co.uk/P...tory-19929601-detail/story.html#ixzz2hj1HfMlS


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 14, 2013)

October 13, 2013 7:00 am
*Bedroom tax: Thousands in debt but no evictions*
*Councils across the Black Country and Staffordshire have yet to evict anyone for failing to pay the ‘bedroom tax’, despite thousands of people falling into debt with their rent.*

But 11 people have so far been taken to court as a result of unpaid rent.

The policy was enacted in April and removed 14 or 25 per cent of housing benefit from council or social housing tenants with one or more spare rooms.

It was intended to free up larger homes for families and reduce enormous council house waiting lists.

But a shortage of smaller properties has left many people with no choice but to pay higher rents, with thousands falling behind as a result.

Sandwell Council has prosecuted nine out of 2,781 tenants who are in arrears and who found themselves paying more because of the removal of what the Government called the ‘spare room subsidy’. It is currently owed £656,491 in unpaid rent.

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/...droom-tax thousands-in-debt-but-no-evictions/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 15, 2013)

> _*TESTING DWP’S ASSESSMENT OF THE IMPACT OF THE SOCIAL RENTED
> SECTOR SIZE CRITERION ON HOUSING BENEFIT COSTS AND OTHER
> FACTORS*_
> October 2013
> ...



http://www.york.ac.uk/media/chp/doc... Criterion on HB Costs University of York.pdf


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

Erm 

http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/local-news/council-tenants-turning-spare-rooms-6190080


By Nick McCarthy
* Council tenants hit by bedroom tax ‘farm out rooms to drugs gangs’ *
 16 Oct 2013 06:30 
Council sources say the gangs are targeting vulnerable tenants who are either desperate for cash or who are forced to grow cannabis to pay off debts


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

Oh look The Fraud-ster speaks!

* Bedroom Tax minister Lord Freud admits 'not enough one-bedroom homes' bungle *
 13 Oct 2013 00:00 
But he brazenly tried to shift responsibility for the logjam to local authorities as he defended the tax in the House of Lords


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-minister-lord-freud-2366182#ixzz2hsGeLt4J


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/food-bank-users-triple-bedroom-2426532


* Bedroom Tax TRIPLES the number of people needing charity food banks to survive *
 16 Oct 2013 00:00 
The Trussell Trust says the 'scandalous' level of hunger in the UK should be 'a wake-up call to the nation'


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

Lest we forget! 



> *Now that the true extent of poverty being caused by the BEDROOM TAX is starting to be reported by the media, here are the names of all the MPs who voted in favour of the Bedroom Tax.
> 
> http://www.greenbenchesuk.com/2013/02/how-every-mp-voted-in-tonights.html*


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

Cleggy 

http://welfarenewsservice.com/nick-clegg-orders-bedroom-tax-investigation/

*Embattled Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg, has ordered that independent research be carried out on the coalition government’s controversial ‘bedroom tax’, to determine its impact upon those affected.*
The order comes following the Liberal Democrat Conference last month, where party members voted unanimously to condemn the leadership for backing the Tories on the hated tax and urged the party to carry out an investigation to determine its impact, particularly on families where a disabled person is present.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 16, 2013)

*http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-tragedy-thousands-scots-forced-2457819*

* Revealed: Number of Scots relying on food banks soars as people are driven to brink of starvation by hated bedroom tax *
 16 Oct 2013 06:55 
THE number of people in Scotland who received emergency aid from food banks has risen a shocking 19,000 in the last year and 6600 children are among those hit.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 16, 2013)

Nice one for posting all this Rutita1 

I haven't "liked" them because the subject matter isn't the sort of thing one can like.


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## treelover (Oct 19, 2013)

> bloke who uses the day centre was evicted from his flat last week. He'd not been able to pay the BEDROOM TAX. The lad's a bit dim, a drinker and hasn't really got much in the way of reading and writing skills. He hadn't known he was due in court about the eviction so when he went home last week and found the locks changed he was and remains quite distressed.
> Poor lad has lost all his kit, is now surfing sofas and has no chance of getting accommodation because he is skint and has no way of raising the £500+ needed for the deposit on private housing. The council won't help him. Of course it's a Labour Council doing the dirty work for the tory and liberals. Not even a sniff of _token _resistance on their part.
> instead, as ever, over the past four decades, total capitulation on their part.leading to these shameful, dirty little court actions taking the most vulnerable down and out into the concrete jungle right on time for General Winter to cut them to pieces come January and February.


 

A personal story on another site, with the BT and the benefit sanctions this is a very cruel time


----------



## BigTom (Oct 20, 2013)

New tory housing minister says 3-beds left empty should be converted into 1 and 2 bed properties, with portaloos outside the backdoors. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-minister-says-3-bed-2472320

What a fucking joke. Bedroom tax was supposed to be about overcrowding, freeing up 3/4 bed properties for people in need but now they are being left empty this particular lie is being forgotten in favour of proposing stupid solutions to the problem caused by the bedroom tax. Just fucking get rid of the bedroom tax and let HAs/councils use their common sense to allocate housing, the larger number of 1/2 bed homes are only needed cos of the bedroom tax, let the people live in the 3 bed homes that are now empty, boarded up and rotting away.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 20, 2013)

BigTom said:


> New tory housing minister says 3-beds left empty should be converted into 1 and 2 bed properties, with portaloos outside the backdoors. http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-minister-says-3-bed-2472320
> 
> 3*What a fucking joke. Bedroom tax was supposed to be about overcrowding, freeing up 3/4 bed properties for people in need but now they are being left empty this particular lie is being forgotten in favour of proposing stupid solutions to the problem caused by the bedroom tax*. Just fucking get rid of the bedroom tax and let HAs/councils use their common sense to allocate housing, the larger number of 1/2 bed homes are only needed cos of the bedroom tax, let the people live in the 3 bed homes that are now empty, boarded up and rotting away.



Very true - Prior to the BT, it was 3 bed family homes that were most in demand. Now people who need them are scared to move into them in case their circumstances change sometime down the line and they get stung with BT. This, IMO, was always the real purpose of the BT - To reduce the stock of social housing by rendering certain types of property more or less unlettable resulting in either demolition or selling off. I've been saying that since the BT was first mooted.


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## audiotech (Oct 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Very true - Prior to the BT, it was 3 bed family homes that were most in demand. Now people who need them are scared to move into them in case their circumstances change sometime down the line and they get stung with BT. This, IMO, was always the real purpose of the BT - To reduce the stock of social housing by rendering certain types of property more or less unlettable resulting in either demolition or selling off. I've been saying that since the BT was first mooted.



The statement made in the House of Lords by Labour peer, Baroness Hollis of Heigham is nearer the truth.


> The government are publicly requiring people to downsize and then, knowing that the stock is not there, they hope and expect that people will ignore what the government are telling them to do - otherwise they will not make the savings,...."
> 
> The government are calling for one outcome but want people to do the exact opposite.



It's being dishonest, no surprise there, by putting forward a "false choice" knowing it to be exactly that.

Edit: Some good news.

“_a society is judged by how it treats its most vulnerable_”


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)

*In Friday's rain, Stacey Ingall, 23, was left standing outside her former flat in Matela Close, Porthleven, with her belongings piled around her.

Read more: http://www.thisiscornwall.co.uk/Por...tory-19975791-detail/story.html#ixzz2ikCmpy4x *


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)

*Family faces eviction from Newham home of 30 years*

http://www.newhamrecorder.co.uk/news/family_faces_eviction_from_newham_home_of_30_years_1_2881748


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 26, 2013)

> *Elderly More To Blame For Housing Crisis Than Immigrants, Planning Minister Nick Boles Says*



http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...icid=maing-grid7|uk|dl8|sec1_lnk3&pLid=218444


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 28, 2013)

Peeps are using this to calculate the difference between their existing rent and what the new LHA is for their areas....unsurprisingly the existing rents are lower and they are still incurring the BT 

http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/RentOfficers/LHARates/april2013lha.html


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 28, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Peeps are using this to calculate the difference between their existing rent and what the new LHA is for their areas....unsurprisingly the existing rents are lower and they are still incurring the BT
> 
> http://www.voa.gov.uk/corporate/RentOfficers/LHARates/april2013lha.html



That's just one of the stupid things about the BT - £97.09 is the LHA rate for a 1 bed in central Manchester. The rent on a 2 bed council property is between £66 and £70ish.


----------



## panpete (Oct 28, 2013)

I was speaking to a man on Friday who works and was never in debt. He managed his money well, but since the bedroom tax has come in he is now in debt.
I think it is putting a lot of people like this in debt.
I also think that the non payment of ESA while in mandatory reconsideration is not going to put people off appealing, but it is going to drop a lot of people in shit upto their necks.


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 28, 2013)

There is definitely an argument for social housing tenants to receive the same LHA rates of housing benefit as the private sector. But the 'subsidised rent' worms crawl out of the woodwork.  Social housing rents are generally set at around 80% of market price, to create a 'fair' housing market as the Tories claim, social housing tenants would receive around 80% of the LHA rate. Which in some cases will cover the cost of a spare room, as it does in the private sector without penalty when receiving 100% LHA.

Even when receiving just 80% of the LHA rate, the majority affected by the bedroom tax, of whom 81% have one spare room, would still likely qualify for an amount of housing benefit which covers full rent. 

Using Frances's example from Manchester: 80% of the 1 BED LHA rate of £97.90 is £77.67


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2013)

> *Alan Wyllie*
> Creator of PoliticsUK and founding member of the No2BedroomTax Campaign
> 
> *Bedroom Tax: Can't Pay, Can't Move *
> Posted: 28/10/2013 17:09



http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/alan-wyllie/bedroom-tax-cant-pay-wont-move_b_4166291.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2013)

Froth, froth, froth....



> *Duncan Smith blasts BBC for 'bedroom tax' bias: Work and Pensions Secretary accuses corporation of promoting Labour's views in furious letter*
> 
> *Iain Duncan Smith said in letter that BBC was misleading viewers*
> *Former immigration minister Damian Green also wrote to corporation bosses*
> ...


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-views-furious-letter.html?ico=home^headlines


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2013)

> *“Affordable” rent gives social landlords the financial incentive to evict the bedroom tax tenant*



http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/10/...al-incentive-to-evict-the-bedroom-tax-tenant/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 29, 2013)

October 28, 2013 10:59 am
*Rent debt up £222k in Wolverhampton after ‘bedroom tax’*
*The amount of rent owed by council tenants has gone up £222,000 following the introduction of the ‘bedroom tax’.*

http://www.expressandstar.com/news/2013/10/28/rent-debt-up-222k-in-wolverhampton-after-bedroom-tax/


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2013)

Get into arrears with bedroom tax and South Ayrshire Council will threaten to take your children into care


----------



## BigTom (Nov 1, 2013)

wtf? Is it usual for a possession order to include a line like that?


----------



## weepiper (Nov 1, 2013)

BigTom said:


> wtf? Is it usual for a possession order to include a line like that?



The council's put out a statement

http://www.south-ayrshire.gov.uk/news/statement-on-rent-arrears-and-under-occupancy.aspx



> The reference to Children's Services is included because of our role as a 'corporate parent' where we have to ensure the safety and wellbeing of children and young people, who could potentially be at risk if their home circumstances change.





Apparently the tenants that this letter was sent to had applied for a DHP in the past but been refused


----------



## BigTom (Nov 1, 2013)

The DHP is a bit of a slap in the face really - Birmingham City Council added £2m to ours and it's still leaving people who clearly aren't in a circumstance where they should be expected to move (even if there was somewhere to move to) paying the charge.


----------



## purenarcotic (Nov 1, 2013)

If you have concerns about the affects of homelessness on children, don't fucking make them homeless.


----------



## SikhWarrioR (Nov 2, 2013)

And I was under the illusion that we are living in the 21st Century though it seems that the conservatives and their lib dem useful idiots seem to want to drag us back to the 19th Century


----------



## Kaka Tim (Nov 2, 2013)

jesus fucking christ. What next - the workhouse for pauper kids is it? 

Real violence is now being done to people on massive scale. Thousands are now reduced to a state of desperate poverty and their numbers are growing. How long before people start striking back?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2013)

> *Press Release - 1st November 2013*
> ***PRESS RELEASE***
> From Hopkin Murray Beskine Solicitors, 1 November 2013
> DISABLED CHILDREN NOW EXEMPT FROM THE ‘BEDROOM TAX’ DWP AMENDS ITS POLICY – AT LAST
> ...



http://www.hmbsolicitors.co.uk/news/category/item/index.cfm?asset_id=1547


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 3, 2013)

> * Bedroom Tax pensioner killed himself over fears he could not afford his home *
> 3 Nov 2013 00:00
> Charles Barden feared he would have to pay the bedroom tax and took his own life, inquest heard
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 4, 2013)

http://alrich.wordpress.com/2013/11...r-hbu72013-iain-duncan-smith-vindictive-ploy/



> *Bedroom tax circular HB U7/2013: Duncan Smith’s vindictive, money-wasting ploy*
> Posted on November 1, 2013 by alrich
> 
> Could the bedroom tax saga get more bizarre? Try this: The Government has issued a circular asking (or demanding, in somewhat hysterical terms) that local authorities “urgently” set aside any other priorities and send details of bedroom tax tribunal decisions to Iain Duncan Smith’s Department of Work and Pensions.
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 8, 2013)

*Councils fail to spend hardship funds*
08/11/2013 | By Pete Apps



English authorities could be forced to return £26 million to government if they don’t start spending

Millions of pounds of unspent emergency housing funding could be returned to the government, after councils used just a fraction of their combined £155 million pot in the first half of the year.

http://m.insidehousing.co.uk/6529389.article?mobilesite=enabled


----------



## Belushi (Nov 10, 2013)

The Observer are reporting Housing Associations beginning to demolish perfectly good three bedroom homes because of the bedroom tax 

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/10/bedrooom-tax-affordable-homes-face-demolition


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The Observer are reporting Housing Associations beginning to demolish perfectly good three bedroom homes because of the bedroom tax
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/10/bedrooom-tax-affordable-homes-face-demolition




I would like to see the dimensions of these flats. It would be cheaper/easier to simply knock one of walls down and make it a two bed which is much more affordable. Also that would be better fro those people whose HAs are not allowing them to move to bigger homes under the new rules because it suppossedlt doesn't _fit their housing need. _There are councils and HAs who are stopping people from moving because of the ages of their kids, they expect them to share! From my experience with HA's they often have properties on their books that are 3 beds with two of those being ridiculously small singles. This just doesn't make sense at all!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

*Poll result reveals DWP doublespeak on the Bedroom Tax*

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2013/11/09/poll-result-reveals-dwp-doublespeak-on-the-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 10, 2013)

* Treasury Minister Danny Alexander's dad slams the Bedroom Tax his son adores *
 10 Nov 2013 00:00 
Housing association boss Di blasted it as “particularly unfair” in a stinging attack on the Coalition

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/treasury-minister-danny-alexanders-dad-2714824


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 10, 2013)

Belushi said:


> The Observer are reporting Housing Associations beginning to demolish perfectly good three bedroom homes because of the bedroom tax
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/10/bedrooom-tax-affordable-homes-face-demolition



I've been saying for ages that'd happen.

E2a AFAIC this is the real purpose of the bedroom tax. To further deplete social housing stock by rendering certain types of properties more or less unlettable.


----------



## treelover (Nov 19, 2013)

> The accommodation expenses claimed by the MPs who voted to keep the damaging tax could pay the bedroom tax for up to 230,000 of those people affected for a year. These were the same MPs jeering in parliament, *laughing into the camera as victims of the bedroom tax gave their devastating testimonies of what life was like under the cuts*.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/nov/19/mps-bedroom-tax-hypocrisy-block-of-flats



Jack Monroe's piece in the Guardian, really didn't know about the Tory M.P's laughing when victims spoke, sickening.


----------



## weepiper (Nov 20, 2013)

> In front of a public gallery packed with anti bedroom tax campaigners, Councillors debated the latest Welfare Reform report by Council officials.  This reveals that a whopping 76% of Edinburgh Council tenants affected are not paying the bedroom tax.  When those already receiving DHP are taken into account the non-payment rate could be around 90%.



http://northedinburghfightsback.org.uk/?p=144


----------



## Tankus (Nov 20, 2013)

how do you not "pay" a benefit reduction ?


----------



## weepiper (Nov 20, 2013)

Tankus said:


> how do you not "pay" a benefit reduction ?



Your housing benefit is paid into your rent account. If there's a reduction in the housing benefit then arrears will build up on the rent account which you are supposed to pay from whatever other source.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 20, 2013)

Long list of numbers affected by borough:



> Here's a full borough-by-borough breakdown (in order of households affected).
> 
> *1) LAMBETH*
> 
> ...


----------



## Tankus (Nov 20, 2013)

So its a transfer of debt to the councils , which they then have make up locally ?


----------



## FNG (Nov 21, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've been saying for ages that'd happen.
> 
> E2a AFAIC this is the real purpose of the bedroom tax. To further deplete social housing stock by rendering certain types of properties more or less unlettable.



 i agree and what is left with 2 young adults expected to share a bedroom ffs in premises designed with 1 per bedroom in mind with all the knock on effect that will have on noise/overcrowding of social spaces ect


----------



## BigTom (Nov 21, 2013)

Tankus said:


> So its a transfer of debt to the councils , which they then have make up locally ?



Council's (and housing associations) are certainly taking a hit on this in terms of rent arrears increasing, and probably the costs of eviction and rehousing people, plus the costs of maintaining and even demolishing the now unlettable properties.
But council's aren't making up the difference (except for with the DHP but that's a transfer of social security payments not debt), it's down to tenants to find the extra money out of benefits or their already low wages, or to go into arrears and face eviction. I hope the rate of non payment in Edinburgh is also happening elsewhere as this might actually get the bedroom tax scrapped.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 21, 2013)

One of the many responses the online campaign has had from MPs since the vote recently. 



> Dear Ms XXXXXX,
> 
> Thank you for your email.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 25, 2013)

Two thirds of social housing tenants in Salford now in arrears due to the BT. Somethings got to give, surely?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...thirds-social-housing-tenants-salford-6338513

<snip>





> Almost 11,500 people in Salford are on the housing waiting list, with 7,000 of them needing a one-bedroom property, as residents try to avoid losing money due to the bedroom tax. The city has 8,000 one-bedroom homes – all occupied.


<snip>


----------



## BigTom (Nov 25, 2013)

arrears are up hugely everywhere, up by 91% in Birmingham in July, about 1/3rd, I wonder how much it's risen by since then, that's just obscene. If they want large parts of the country to erupt they are going the right way about it, I hope that there are enough communities left to oppose the evictions when they start coming. Wondering if the Tories are thinking that'll happen after 2015 so are happy to fuck some people over, screw council housing a little bit more, and let Labour scrap what is clearly an unworkable policy.


----------



## treelover (Nov 26, 2013)

Plenty of opposition on F/B some of it very robust, but elsewhere it still seems marginalised.

ah, just realised 'arrears' can be seen as basic opposition


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2013)

> *Bedroom tax 'success' *
> 13 Dec 2013 16:35
> Around 800 tenants are in line for backdated payments of up to £600 each to cover under-occupancy rental costs imposed as a result of the bedroom tax over the past year.



http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/l...ction_type_map=["og.likes"]&action_ref_map=[]


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2013)

*Government committee calls for bedroom tax to be abolished*


*Published by Jon Land for 24dash.com in Central Government and also in Regulation*
Monday 16th December 2013 - 4:22pm

http://www.24dash.com/news/central_...mmittee-calls-for-bedroom-tax-to-be-abolished


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 17, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> *Government committee calls for bedroom tax to be abolished*
> 
> 
> *Published by Jon Land for 24dash.com in Central Government and also in Regulation*
> ...



Let's hope so. As it is now, it's just unsustainable.

And, as always, nice one for keeping us updated Rutita.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 21, 2013)

Important development:



> Now I can report it to be entirely 100% factual and so if you have been receiving HB continuously since 1 Jan 1996 then YOU ARE EXEMPT FROM THE BEDROOM TAX!
> 
> Below is a picture of a letter sent out by Exeter City Council on 17 December 2013 which clearly says this and reverses the decision to impose the bedroom tax for the above reasons.



http://speye.wordpress.com/2013/12/21/every-bedroom-tax-hb-decision-unlawful-yes-the-proof-is-here/


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 23, 2013)

morning star reporting the same story - 

http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...n-the-brink-of-collapse#.UrihJ2mNt-J.facebook

how much longer can this cunt stay in a job?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 23, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> morning star reporting the same story -
> 
> http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...n-the-brink-of-collapse#.UrihJ2mNt-J.facebook
> 
> how much longer can this cunt stay in a job?



Not going to get excited about this.  Remember how people got excited about box rooms being exempt


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 28, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not going to get excited about this.  Remember how people got excited about box rooms being exempt




I'm with you on this point Minnie_the_Minx however some people are talking to their HA/LA about this already (according to posts in various groups)

Sanctuary Housing have also issed this to some of their tenents:


----------



## marty21 (Dec 28, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Get into arrears with bedroom tax and South Ayrshire Council will threaten to take your children into care
> 
> View attachment 42807


Fucking hell, that letter is evil


----------



## marty21 (Dec 28, 2013)

BigTom said:


> wtf? Is it usual for a possession order to include a line like that?


Not in England


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 28, 2013)

Congrats, struggling to meet your rent? Well pay us another four hundred fucking quid!

This system cannot go on like this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 29, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> I'm with you on this point Minnie_the_Minx however some people are talking to their HA/LA about this already (according to posts in various groups)
> 
> Sanctuary Housing have also issed this to some of their tenents:
> 
> View attachment 45606



I remember some people getting excited about the fact that if you had a room off a living room, for example, that didn't have direct access to the front door, then for H&S reasons (e.g. in the event of a fire), you couldn't rent it out and it therefore couldn't be classed as a bedroom


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 29, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I remember some people getting excited about the fact that if you had a room off a living room, for example, that didn't have direct access to the front door, then for H&S reasons (e.g. in the event of a fire), you couldn't rent it out and it therefore couldn't be classed as a bedroom




I haven't heard that one. 

I know that there has been limited success (for some people) with the box room size etc. However there is no uniformity in the way councils/HAs are dealing with this and each seem to be making up their own rules.

I am just interested to see how many get exemption, if any, with this continuous HB thing. The criteria is much harsher than it seems though, I don't suppose significant numbers have been on continuous HB with no breaks all the way back to 1996.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 29, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> I haven't heard that one.
> 
> I know that there has been limited success (for some people) with the box room size etc. However there is no uniformity in the way councils/HAs are dealing with this and each seem to be making up their own rules.
> 
> I am just interested to see how many get exemption, if any, with this continuous HB thing. The criteria is much harsher than it seems though, I don't suppose significant numbers have been on continuous HB with no breaks all the way back to 1996.



It was one of those ideas that was floated around when the BT started.  Not sure what happened to it.  Maybe not many people have rooms off rooms?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 29, 2013)

> *Bedroom Tax - Potential Loophole alert!*
> December 29, 2013
> Hi,
> 
> ...



http://www.ucadvice.co.uk/housing-associations/2013/12/bedroom-tax---potential-loophole-alert


----------



## marty21 (Dec 30, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.ucadvice.co.uk/housing-associations/2013/12/bedroom-tax---potential-loophole-alert


 Interesting - but it seems to only apply to people who have had HB claims running continously since 1996 - can't imagine that will be that many people tbh


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 9, 2014)

> *Official – DWP announce pre-1996 position is true and thousands have had bedroom tax imposed in error!*



http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/01/...usands-have-had-bedroom-tax-imposed-in-error/


----------



## ddraig (Jan 9, 2014)

also on official site
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...ment_data/file/270200/hb-bulletin-u1-2014.pdf


----------



## BigTom (Jan 9, 2014)

Good news but will the DWP just pass retroactive legislation then claim the money back from claimants? Hopefully they won't be allowed to, but I don't think this loophole is going to stay open.



> The Department will however be taking steps to remedy this shortly.



(from the PDF ddraig linked to)


----------



## Belushi (Jan 9, 2014)

Guardian reporting it too http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/bedroom-tax-loophole-exempt-liable-housing-benefit


----------



## marty21 (Jan 9, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Guardian reporting it too http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/bedroom-tax-loophole-exempt-liable-housing-benefit


That article suggests it is a massive and costly fuck up by the DWP, presumably IDS will try and wriggle out of taking the blame, the buck never stops with him.


----------



## Jackobi (Jan 9, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Guardian reporting it too http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/jan/09/bedroom-tax-loophole-exempt-liable-housing-benefit



"It is believed that some tenants who may now be deemed exempt will have received hundreds of pounds in emergency discretionary housing payments (DHPs) since April to help them cope with the shortfall in their income caused by the bedroom tax. They will have their housing benefit refunded, but will not be obliged to repay the DHP cash, which may result in some actually gaining hundreds of pounds in cash."

This made me laugh because IDS will be fuming.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

marty21 said:


> That article suggests it is a massive and costly fuck up by the DWP, presumably IDS will try and wriggle out of taking the blame, the buck never stops with him.




DWP, not fit for purpose, but no officials will be affected, Dara Singh, DWP head, was chair of the Commission into the 2011 riots, community cohesion, etc, couldn't make it up.


----------



## treelover (Jan 10, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> "It is believed that some tenants who may now be deemed exempt will have received hundreds of pounds in emergency discretionary housing payments (DHPs) since April to help them cope with the shortfall in their income caused by the bedroom tax. They will have their housing benefit refunded, but will not be obliged to repay the DHP cash, which may result in some actually gaining hundreds of pounds in cash."
> 
> This made me laugh because IDS will be fuming.




This makes other brutal cuts more likely.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 12, 2014)

> *First council announces bedroom tax refunds since revelation of legal loophole*
> Friday 10th January 2014 - 5:03pm
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.24dash.com/news/local_go...ax-refunds-since-revelation-of-legal-loophole


----------



## treelover (Jan 15, 2014)

> *Bedroom tax plans are a levy on the grief of the poor*
> When I lost my son, preserving his room for a while was a help. But poor and grieving families may soon be denied this choice
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/14/bedroom-tax-death-leveller




Not usually a fan of Michael Rosen(ex SWP fellow traveller, etc) but this piece is powerful and moving.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 15, 2014)

> *Lord Freud takes a pasting in bedroom tax 'cock-up' debate*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.24dash.com/news/central_...takes-a-pasting-in-bedroom-tax-cock-up-debate


----------



## ddraig (Jan 15, 2014)

Cardiff woman angry at how community ripped apart by people having to leave
http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2014-01-15/resident-speaks-of-outrage-at-bedroom-tax-confusion/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 18, 2014)

> * Peter Barker, the man whose 'Bedroom Tax' loophole could help up to 40,000 housing benefit claimants to get their money back *
> 
> Iain Duncan Smith’s nemesis has never sat on the green benches of parliament. In fact, he has never met the Work and Pensions Secretary at all.
> 
> But Peter Barker, a 53-year-old self-confessed anorak from Romford, Essex, made a discovery that is likely to cost the minister millions. He found a loophole in the so-called bedroom tax which could mean that up to 40,000 housing benefit claimants can claim money back.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...laimants-to-get-their-money-back-9068077.html


----------



## RedDragon (Jan 18, 2014)

I must admit, that news still makes my day.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 18, 2014)

> Unemployed tenants handed sanctions are also losing housing benefit
> 
> *‘Unintended’ housing benefit cuts hit tenants*
> 17/01/2014 | By Paul Hebden
> ...



http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/finance/‘unintended’-housing-benefit-cuts-hit-tenants/7001667.article


----------



## Greebo (Jan 18, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/finance/‘unintended’-housing-benefit-cuts-hit-tenants/7001667.article


Entirely predictable, but even so...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 20, 2014)

> *'Bedroom tax' test cases considered*
> Disabled people are taking their legal challenge to the Government's so-called "bedroom tax" to the Court of Appeal.
> 20 January 2014
> 
> * Disabled people are taking their legal challenge to the Government's so-called "bedroom tax" to the Court of Appeal.*



http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...droom-tax-test-cases-considered-29931879.html


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 20, 2014)

http://www.otsnews.co.uk/southport-couple-in-court-over-bedroom-tax/



> Jason and Charlotte Carmichael from Eden Avenue in Churchtown, Southport, are in Court today (Manday 20th January 2014) to argue that the cut in benefit for unoccupied bedrooms in social housing is breaching human rights.
> 
> They will appear in court to fight against having to downsize.
> 
> Charlotte who is disabled and suffers with spina bifida has lived in her two bedroom flat on Eden Avenue with her husband Jason for the past ten years.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 20, 2014)

I know Jayson from the online groups. 

In other news people are reporting success with the 1996 'loophole'..



> _Success got my claim re-assessed under the 1996 rule and the refund is going on my rent account , I also rang the HA and suggested they put an article about this rule in the magazine and it is going in the next one so all in all a huge success_


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 22, 2014)

Some wins are happening at tribual stage!

It's a dining room, not a 2nd bedroom!
http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/BT-appeal-result.pdf



> * Bedroom tax: Coulby Newham mum wins back £700 after taking on Middlesbrough Council *
> 22 Jan 2014 09:40
> Alison Huggan, who has two sons in the Army, says challenge was about 'principle' after she was told to pay the spare room subsidy



http://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/bedroom-tax-coulby-newham-mum-6536353


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 22, 2014)

More here:

http://nearlylegal.co.uk/blog/bedroom-tax-ftt-decisions/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 23, 2014)

> *Disabled Solihull brothers face eviction by council days after mum is taken into care *
> 22 Jan 2014 06:30
> Richard and Frank Smith are set to be turfed out of their three-bedroom house despite the property having been adapted to help wheelchair-bound Richard



http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/midlands-news/disabled-solihull-brothers-face-eviction-6534607


----------



## treelover (Jan 23, 2014)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 23, 2014)

> *'Chilling' impact of the bedroom tax revealed in Newcastle*
> 
> The report found:
> 
> ...



http://www.24dash.com/news/bill_pay...pact-of-the-bedroom-tax-revealed-in-Newcastle


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 23, 2014)

I printed out the Urgent Bulletin dated 8th January 2014 re the loophole and went into my local council finance dept today. The lady there hadn't seen that document so she's photocopied it and will look into it to see if I am due a refund. I don't see why I won't be as we have always been on some level of HB since we moved here so fingers crossed.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 23, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I printed out the Urgent Bulletin dated 8th January 2014 re the loophole and went into my local council finance dept today. The lady there hadn't seen that document so she's photocopied it and will look into it to see if I am due a refund. I don't see why I won't be as we have always been on some level of HB since we moved here so fingers crossed.




That's possibly good news for you mate! 

FWIW people from the online groups are reporting a variety of things after approaching their LA or HA:

Confirmed refund letters.
Looking into it.
Never heard of it.

The whole thing is a bloody shambles on every level. Arse and elbow!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 24, 2014)

> *Council will call for bedroom tax axe*
> NOTTINGHAM City Council will call on the Government to scrap the so-called bedroom tax next week.
> 
> Deputy leader of the council Graham Chapman will put forward a motion saying they are concerned about cuts to welfare and local government budgets at a full council meeting on Monday.
> ...



http://www.nottinghampost.com/Council-bedroom-tax-axe/story-20492895-detail/story.html


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 24, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> The whole thing is a bloody shambles on every level. Arse and elbow!



How can anyone  be such a consistent failure? The law of averages has gone askew somewhere!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 24, 2014)

How's this for a psychopathic circle jerk of a FUCK up!

Many people who qualify for the 1996 exemption and therefore a refund because they should have been exempt from bedroom tax charges are receiving letters from their LA's informing them that any DHP payments that have been made to them will be recovered and that as such they have been overpaid....So, the LA's know that some people are going to be reimbursed the HB they were due but were denied, so they are demanding back payment of any DHP that was made to those people who should never have be charged or assessed as underoccupying...


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> How can anyone  be such a consistent failure? The law of averages has gone askew somewhere!!


Somewhere in the world a village idiot has won the Nobel Science Prize. It's the only way to balance this kind of cosmic hiccup.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 24, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> How's this for a psychopathic circle jerk of a FUCK up!
> 
> Many people who qualify for the 1996 exemption and therefore a refund because they should have been exempt from bedroom tax charges are receiving letters from their LA's informing them that any DHP payments that have been made to them will be recovered and that as such they have been overpaid....So, the LA's know that some people are going to be reimbursed the HB they were due but were denied, so they are demanding back payment of any DHP that was made to those people who should never have be charged or assessed as underoccupying...


wait..what?

So people who received DHP's because they didn't know about this 1996 exemption (including people in charge and in government) now qualifying for a backpayment of HB are then being asked to pay back their DHP?

Can they do that?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 25, 2014)

Apparently...in the logic of circle jerk psychopathy they can! 


In other news, which is not new news but ties a few loose ends..:



> *Joe Halewood‎*
> The bedroom tax is dead in the water now we have a LEGAL DEFINITION OF A BEDROOM FROM THE UPPER TRIBUNAL which creates a legal precedent that councils and first tier tribunals HAVE to follow. This is the most significant decision yet http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/01/...finition-of-bedroom-for-bedroom-tax-purposes/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 27, 2014)

> *Lawyers Granted Judicial Review Against Councils ‘Unfair’ ‘Bedroom Tax’ Housing Policy*



http://welfarenewsservice.com/lawye...w-councils-unfair-bedroom-tax-housing-policy/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 27, 2014)

> *Loophole means that some housing benefit claimants may not have to pay bedroom tax*
> Housing benefit claimants who have been continuously living in their property since 1 January 1996 may still be entitled to the spare room subsidy, and therefore would not have to pay the controversial ‘bedroom tax’.
> 
> The Department for Work and Pensions have issued a bulletin acknowledging that there is a loophole in the legislation.
> ...



http://www.stephensons.co.uk/site/news_and_events/blogpost/housing_benefit_loophole#.Uubc7uJFDIW


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 27, 2014)

> * Revealed: Thousands of vulnerable Scots wrongly hit by £3.5m bedroom tax blunder *
> 27 Jan 2014 07:22
> COUNCILS face having to repay up to £3.5million after it was revealed anyone living in the same home since 1996, that has been receiving housing benefit, is exempt from the hated spare room policy.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/revealed-thousands-vulnerable-scots-wrongly-3065469


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 28, 2014)

Since we are close enough to the election there's little chance of ids leaving his post beforehand, same goes for that piece of shit snake steve Webb. Lord fraud is safely ensconsed in the Lords so he won't ever leave.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 28, 2014)

> *Up to 183 people in Crawley "could have lost homes" after benefits were wrongly cut*



Read more: http://www.crawleynews.co.uk/183-pe...tory-20477672-detail/story.html#ixzz2rgMHTBUu


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 28, 2014)

> *The SNP government has opened talks with Labour about devising a “legal way” to scrap the so-called bedroom tax in Scotland.*
> 
> Labour staged a surprise U-turn yesterday to back the last Scottish Budget before the independence referendum, in an effort to ditch the controversial welfare reform.



http://www.scotsman.com/news/politi...abour-will-agree-to-end-bedroom-tax-1-3278802


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 28, 2014)

I need to wait til someone archives that as I won't click on the Scotsman, but I'd take that with a pinch of salt as it is a) the Scotsman and b) Labour.

Done a bit of digging and found this, which confirms my suspicions.

Unless the Labour party can find a legal way round Schedule 5 in the 1998 Scotland Act or the £33.5 Million limit the Department of Work and Pensions has placed on the Discretionary Housing Payments from the councils they are just blowing hot air from their nether regions when they bang on about how the Scottish Parliament has the power to alleviate the Bedroom Tax.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 29, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I need to wait til someone archives that as I won't click on the Scotsman, but I'd take that with a pinch of salt as it is a) the Scotsman and b) Labour.
> 
> Done a bit of digging and found this, which confirms my suspicions.
> 
> Unless the Labour party can find a legal way round Schedule 5 in the 1998 Scotland Act or the £33.5 Million limit the Department of Work and Pensions has placed on the Discretionary Housing Payments from the councils they are just blowing hot air from their nether regions when they bang on about how the Scottish Parliament has the power to alleviate the Bedroom Tax.



Still though, and I'll freely admit this is nothing more than knee jerk suspicion on my part - I wouldn't be surprised if the BT was scrapped in Scotland before everywhere else.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 1, 2014)

> *‘Bedroom Tax’ Breaches Disabled Couples Human Rights, Judge Rules*
> *
> 
> A disabled couple, who argued they needed to sleep in separate rooms in their three bedroom social housing property and that they were being discriminated against, have won an appeal against the coalition government’s controversial ‘bedroom tax’, or spare room subsidy.*



http://welfarenewsservice.com/bedroom-tax-breaches-disabled-couple-human-rights-judge-rules/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 1, 2014)

> * Bedroom tax protester changes name to Axe The Tax after being taken to court *
> 31 Jan 2014 15:46
> River Att, from Hulme, changed his name to River Axe The Tax in protest at the Government policy.



http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/bedroom-tax-protester-changes-name-6654752


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 3, 2014)

> * Bedroom tax axed in Scotland: Holyrood rivals back SNP Government's £15m plan to banish hated spare-room policy *
> 3 Feb 2014 07:22
> IN what is a stunning victory for the Daily Record-led campaign, First Minister Nicola Sturgeon confirmed the £15m proposal yesterday which means the vicious Con-Dem policy will effectively be abolished north of the Border.


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/bedroom-tax-holyrood-rivals-back-3107134


Tick, tock, tick, tick! GET ON WITH IT THEN!


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 3, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> Tick, tock, tick, tick! GET ON WITH IT THEN!



What are you angry about? They've already done it afaik. I didn't read the record link but everyone I know has had their this years BT paid. They can only do so much and the SNP are doing a fuckton more than any other party!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 3, 2014)

> *Cover your cock up IDS and no, we wont be on our knees!*
> 
> On 3rd March Iain Duncan Smith will lay a statutory instrument before Parliament to, in his language, close the loophole for the pre 1996 exempt bedroom tax households which has seen 40,000 plus families unlawfully penalised with the bedroom tax this year.
> 
> ...



http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/02/02/cover-your-cock-up-ids-and-no-we-wont-be-on-our-knees/


----------



## scifisam (Feb 3, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> What are you angry about? They've already done it afaik. I didn't read the record link but everyone I know has had their this years BT paid. They can only do so much and the SNP are doing a fuckton more than any other party!


AFAIK, the shortfall is being paid for by the devolved govt, rather than the housing benefit change actually being revoked. That makes it more tenuous.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 3, 2014)

scifisam said:


> AFAIK, the shortfall is being paid for by the devolved govt, rather than the housing benefit change actually being revoked. That makes it more tenuous.



The SNP are looking for a legal way to do away with the Bedroom Tax. There is FUCK ALL they can do if they can't find a way other than what they have done this year and dish out discretionary payments. Labour have won FUCK ALL or helped anyone in any way. The Daily Record is a Labour propaganda rag that is full of shite and inaccuracies. Jackie Baillie is full of shit and claiming credit for what Nicola Sturgeon has done  And some of the red monkeys will believe them!!

There is a spending cap on what Holyrood can dish out(set by Westminster), Swinney managed to wangle a way round it for this and next year. He can't promise to do that indefinetly!
The Tories aren't going to agree to the SNP doing away with the BT imo, not even to try to win no votes.

The mainstream media tells LIES people!!


----------



## treelover (Feb 4, 2014)

> *Ministers savage UN report calling for abolition of UK's bedroom tax*
> As Raquel Rolnik reiterates call to suspend policy, UN rapporteur's report is described as 'misleading Marxist diatribe'
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/03/ministers-savage-un-report-abolition-bedroom-tax




The possibly very significant report on the bedroom tax, poverty and inequality issues such as ATOS by the U.N Rapporteur, Raquel Rolnik is due in March, she has collated people's experiences and evidence from all over the U.K, already the Tories are spluttering and fuming .

shades of the 80's and the 'faith in the city' report from the Churches which received a similar reception, they are rattled...


----------



## BigTom (Feb 9, 2014)

Court ruling says a room needs to have a bed or be used as a bedroom to be counted as one for the bedroom tax - not just what number is stated on the tenancy agreement: http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/02/08/the-bedroom-tax-is-dead-heres-why/

ianal of course but afaik speye is a good source. I suppose there'll be an appeal and then maybe some retroactive legislation to cover up another one of IDS' total clusterfucks. Hopefully this will provide a way out for a substantial number of people though.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 10, 2014)

fucking hell - the channel 4 dispatches prog on the bedroom tax was utterly piss poor. They had no-one from the campaign against it, they didn't explain what the rules meant by a 'spare' bedroom and the obvious injustice it creates (i.e. family of 4 in a three bed house), the presenter was an ignorant post twat and came out with shit like 'lot of people are on housing benefit - some deserving, some not' - 'but something had to be done about housing benefit'  He didn't challenge the lame arse PPS who was speaking for the government on anything substantive. 

Shockingly bad - channel 4 used to be good at stuff like this - wtf happened?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 11, 2014)

> *Lord Freud To Be Grilled Over ‘Bedroom Tax’ By Work And Pensions Committee*
> 
> *Welfare reform minister Lord Freud, is to be questioned by the Work and Pensions Committee on Wednesday 12 February at 9:30am, over the coalition governments controversial ‘bedroom tax’ and the benefit cap.*
> Lord Freud will be asked how the government intends to ensure all tenants in Supported Accommodation will remain exempt from cuts to their Housing Benefit.


http://welfarenewsservice.com/lord-freud-grilled-bedroom-tax-work-pensions-committee/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 12, 2014)

> *‘Bedroom tax’ wrongly levied on thousands of homes *
> 
> More than 16,000 people have been unlawfully charged due to the Government’s controversial “bedroom tax,” it emerged on Tuesday night.
> 
> Freedom of Information (FOI) requests to 140 local authorities revealed that the number of people who have wrongly had their housing benefit cut is more than three times as many as ministers predicted. Labour claimed the “spare room subsidy” cut was in chaos.





> On Wednesday Labour will force a Commons vote on its proposal to repeal the “bedroom tax.” Ian Lavery, a Labour MP, will bring in a backbench Bill saying that no claimant should be “financially penalised” for the number of bedrooms in his or her home. But Conservative and Liberal Democrat MPs are expected to vote down the Bill.
> 
> Lord Freud, the Welfare Reform Minister, and Kris Hopkins, the Housing Minister, will be questioned about the Government’s housing benefit reforms by the Work and Pensions Select Committee on Wednesday.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...gly-levied-on-thousands-of-homes-9122143.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 12, 2014)

> *Bedroom tax has put 140,000 people in rent arrears as vote to axe hated tax looms *
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-put-140000-people-3136059#ixzz2t5kOpey5


----------



## treelover (Feb 12, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> fucking hell - the channel 4 dispatches prog on the bedroom tax was utterly piss poor. They had no-one from the campaign against it, they didn't explain what the rules meant by a 'spare' bedroom and the obvious injustice it creates (i.e. family of 4 in a three bed house), the presenter was an ignorant post twat and came out with shit like 'lot of people are on housing benefit - some deserving, some not' - 'but something had to be done about housing benefit'  He didn't challenge the lame arse PPS who was speaking for the government on anything substantive.
> 
> Shockingly bad - channel 4 used to be good at stuff like this - wtf happened?




was this an 'authored' piece or a nominally independent work of investigative journalism?*

*very loosely indeed.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Feb 12, 2014)

treelover said:


> was this an 'authored' piece or a nominally independent work of investigative journalism?*
> 
> *very loosely indeed.



No idea. The presenter looked and acted like he should be doing kids TV and displayed considerable ignorance - so id be suprised if he was the author.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 13, 2014)

you not w0rked i  ootyet?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 16, 2014)

> *Bedroom tax victims urged to prepare mass appeal after tenant’s legal victory over Government *
> A man was spared by a tribunal judge who ruled his flat was wrongly deemed to have two bedrooms - it was judged the extra room was a dining room
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-ruling-victims-urged-3150177


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 17, 2014)

> *Couple win appeal against 'bedroom tax'*
> 12 February 2014
> A DISABLED man and his wife are among the first in Wales to win an appeal against the controversial ‘bed-room tax’ after an Aberystwyth tribunal accepted that they needed separate bedrooms.
> 
> ...



http://www.cambrian-news.co.uk/news/i/37909/#.UwI8VGzhEqN.twitter


----------



## BigTom (Feb 17, 2014)

Seems like every day there's a new victory in another court case for a different reason.
Could this be the most badly written/thought through piece of legislation ever?
IDS really is a piece of work. How does someone so unable to manage any kind of policy get to be an MP let alone senior cabinet member and ex party leader. 
Shame the Tories will be out of office before he gets the sack.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 17, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Seems like every day there's a new victory in another court case for a different reason.
> Could this be the most badly written/thought through piece of legislation ever?
> IDS really is a piece of work. How does someone so unable to manage any kind of policy get to be an MP let alone senior cabinet member and ex party leader.
> Shame the Tories will be out of office before he gets the sack.


But that will only happen if we vote labour.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 17, 2014)

> *Housing benefit 'spare room' rebates for 3,000 in West Midlands*
> 
> At least 3,000 tenants in the West Midlands are set to be eligible for rebates after having benefits wrongly cut because they have extra bedrooms.
> 
> ...



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-birmingham-26226030


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 17, 2014)

_Well_ lookie here :



> *DWP ‘not to appeal’ Upper Tribunal on definition of a ‘bedroom’*
> *Friday, February 14, 2014*
> *Published by WARREN LEWIS*
> Regulation  | 0 Comments
> ...



http://www.propertyreporter.co.uk/view.asp?ID=13169


----------



## treelover (Feb 18, 2014)

Steve Webb the L/D minister is disgusting: hard to believe one day he robustly supported the welfare state, attacking ESA, etc, the next day as a minister he didn't,

well, actually, its easy to believe.


----------



## treelover (Feb 18, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Seems like every day there's a new victory in another court case for a different reason.
> Could this be the most badly written/thought through piece of legislation ever?
> IDS really is a piece of work. How does someone so unable to manage any kind of policy get to be an MP let alone senior cabinet member and ex party leader.
> Shame the Tories will be out of office before he gets the sack.




March 11, the UN report, borrowed time?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 18, 2014)

treelover said:


> Steve Webb the L/D minister is disgusting: hard to believe one day he robustly supported the welfare state, attacking ESA, etc, the next day as a minister he didn't,
> 
> well, actually, its easy to believe.


i've been aware of his 'work' for months. He is an utterly repellant odious god bothering shit sandwich. The fact BBC Bristol continues to pander to him (and the rest of the local scum contingent including the appalling Don Foster who claimed he was concerned about foodbank use when interviewed but decided it wasn't enough of an issue to vote an enquiry into).

Webb's performance in a select committe/enquiry type thing months ago into the BT was vile; he dismissed every intervention attempt and simply said that people should pick up a few hours extra work a week.

Yet taxpayers foot the bill for his mortgage interest while he gets paid £160k a year.

Fucking piece of shit. He'd be among the first to crow about HB claimants and how they shouldn't be entitled to properties disproportionately expensive while on benefits, yet is happy to trouser that kind of wage and have his own house paid for.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 18, 2014)

BigTom said:


> Seems like every day there's a new victory in another court case for a different reason.
> Could this be the most badly written/thought through piece of legislation ever?
> IDS really is a piece of work. How does someone so unable to manage any kind of policy get to be an MP let alone senior cabinet member and ex party leader.
> Shame the Tories will be out of office before he gets the sack.


because they all love him.

and because noone else wants so poisoned a chalice, I expect. Certainly now that he's fucked things up so badly.

The guy is a massive failure.


----------



## marty21 (Feb 18, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _Well_ lookie here :
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.propertyreporter.co.uk/view.asp?ID=13169


 good news - my job changed recently and I don't do rents anymore - but I had a look at a few of my old bedroom tax victims and some have already had fat HB rebates credited to their accounts


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 18, 2014)

More:


> *The Bedroom Tax violates a parent and child’s right to a family life – what an appeal win!!!*
> What a win!
> 
> Any separated parent and often the father who has a ‘spare’ bedroom for his child or children who stay at weekends and holidays and is hit by the pernicious bedroom tax for wanting to still be a responsible parent and have a family life then read this and SMILE.
> ...


http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/02/...ds-right-to-a-family-life-what-an-appeal-win/

Judgement PDF here:
https://www.dropbox.com/s/1a6gzzeoe5rzssf/p2.pdf
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4ong27w3333hs05/p1.pdf


----------



## BigTom (Feb 19, 2014)

That's fucking brilliant, I didn't think that appeal would be won.
I wonder how many people have been lifted out of the tax in the past few weeks?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 19, 2014)

It is a great result...


until the Smith enacts the inevitable 'emergency' legislation.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2014)

Well, he could do/try that.

I do though think it's significant that the DWP are not going to appeal the tribunal ruling and that near on every day we have judgements being made against the DWP/BT... It's crumbing around their ears, whilst the DWP will play the figures down the amount of people who have been compensated or had their payments returned is growing.... The last EDM is coming up for a second reading soon isn't it? More and more MPs/Lords are on side and against this...hopefully it's just a matter of time before it dies on it's arse.


----------



## spirals (Feb 19, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> More:
> 
> http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/02/...ds-right-to-a-family-life-what-an-appeal-win/
> 
> ...



That is very relevant to a couple of people I know going through BT troubles so thanks so posting that


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 19, 2014)

Nice one spirals It's why it's important for people to appeal and share info as much as possible. These judgements can be used to build cases for other folk and ultimately a very big two fingers up to the DWP.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 20, 2014)

PDF attached:



> DWP Guidance Pre 1996 Cases
> 
> 
> The DWP have now issued Circular A1/2014 which provides guidance to LA’s as to how they should deal with the pre 1996 exemptions from the bedroom tax.  Most of the circular is relatively non contentious in the sense that it seems legally sound (notwithstanding the current legal challenges to the bedroom tax itself) but  some the question and answer brief in the circular is most certainly open to challenge.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 3, 2014)

Nowt we don't already know...



> *Exclusive: Sale of small council homes condemning thousands to bedroom tax *



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...asty-shambles-says-poverty-group-9163875.html


----------



## spirals (Mar 4, 2014)

Rutita1 One of the people I forwarded on that link to sent me this today 'OMG !!  using the link you sent me.... They council have decided that XXXXX has the right to have a bedroom when she visits !!!Unbelievable.... I have been fighting this since October , plus visits from the Rent Officer with an eviction notice.. AND now I have just got an email telling me my arrears are quashed'

Thank you!   : )


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 4, 2014)

spirals said:


> Rutita1 One of the people I forwarded on that link to sent me this today 'OMG !!  using the link you sent me.... They council have decided that XXXXX has the right to have a bedroom when she visits !!!Unbelievable.... I have been fighting this since October , plus visits from the Rent Officer with an eviction notice.. AND now I have just got an email telling me my arrears are quashed'
> 
> Thank you!   : )



That has made my morning spirals It is one of the reason I share this stuff...it's important we get the information to everyone it may effect.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 4, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> That has made my morning spirals It is one of the reason I share this stuff...it's important we get the information to everyone it may effect.


I find it shocking that it takes this kind of activism to get people what they are legally entitled to, though. 

Something terrible has happened when we find ourselves governed by people who rely on bullying an ignorant population on the one hand to deny them their rights, and on the other to stoke up popular prejudice in order to secure a mandate to further limit those rights.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 4, 2014)

I hear ya existentialist, it's gone beyond shock now though, this shit is real and nothing new really.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 5, 2014)

When does this loophole close?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 7, 2014)

> *Deadline approaches for bedroom tax help*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://scotland.shelter.org.uk/news/march_2014/deadline_approaches_for_bedroom_tax_help


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 9, 2014)

> *'Bedroom Tax' Victory For Disabled Woman*
> *In what could be a landmark case, a tribunal rules officials did not give enough consideration to the tenant's disabilities.*
> 
> 
> ...



http://news.sky.com/story/1149885/bedroom-tax-victory-for-disabled-woman


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 9, 2014)

> The couple have now had the subsidy reduced to 14%, down from 25%.





It's not a subsidy.

And they haven't won. The penalty is still against them. They've reduced it by less than half (though obviously that's _something_).

And look how these councils are acting: all in a ruch to pursue this vicious policy.


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2014)

'The Bedroom Tax battle is being waged by a very special breed of campaigners'

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-battle-being-waged-3171622

apologies if posted before, its a great article


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 1, 2014)

Crappy Birthday 

What the fuck is this woman on:



She is a human gish gallop.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Crappy Birthday
> 
> What the fuck is this woman on:
> 
> ...



 I reckon she is popular with Cameron and Co as she has a regional accent and might make people think the Tories are for everyone 

she has been handed a shit sandwich though - impossible to defend, and now it is coming out that it isn't even saving any money


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 1, 2014)

They don't care. Denial is the new politics, not just a place in Africa. "I don't recognise those stats Charlie!"

That should be a fucking T Shirt.

"Charlie sez... nope, no he doesn't"


----------



## treelover (Apr 1, 2014)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 16, 2014)

*Bedroom tax: Court fees for rent arrears eviction cases to rise by 150%*

http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/...ource=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#.U025m1cQOVp


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 16, 2014)

So you get screwed even more when your landlord kicks you out of the home you can't afford!

This is beyond sick!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 21, 2014)

I am absolutely chuffed to report that Jayson and Charlotte have won their 1st tribunal! ...I am still full of rage though, they should never have been put in this position  nobody should be! 

http://www.otsnews.co.uk/southport-couple-in-court-over-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2014)

*Bedroom Tax human rights ruling could pave way for 420,000 to launch similar appeals *


http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/bedroom-tax-human-rights-victory-3448379


----------



## ddraig (Apr 24, 2014)

Housing Tenants in Wales offered a creme egg as thanks for keeping up their payments!
total pisstake! 


> Bedroom tax-hit tenants have been offered a 60p Cadbury's creme egg as a thank you for keeping up with their payments.
> 
> Housing association Valleys to Coast in Bridgend has written to tenants offering the gesture - which has been branded "bizarre and obscene" - to thank those struggling with financial hardship for their "efforts to pay this shortfall".
> 
> ...


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/bedroom-tax-tenants-thanked-making-7030029


----------



## ddraig (Apr 24, 2014)

didn't spot this on the last few pages
Karen Jenkins from Caerphilly wins an appeal against the bedroom tax due to room being too small





http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/grandmother-becomes-first-tenant-caerphilly-6953833


> Speaking about the case yesterday, Ms Jenkins, a graduate job-seeker, said: “The judge was fair and approached my argument from all sides.
> 
> “The judgement states: “Whilst one might say that if it looks like a duck and sounds like a duck, one can say that it is a duck. One can also say that if it looks like a study, then it probably is a study.”
> 
> ...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 24, 2014)

*



Disabled man's 'bedroom tax' house swap is stopped by council 

 Apr 24, 2014 08:24
By Natasha Adkins

Kevin West cannot afford to pay the ‘bedroom tax’ on his three-bedroom home in Brayford Road, Whitley Wood, so had signed up to Reading Borough Council’s HomeSwapper initiative





Rachel Stroud, Lorraine and Kevin West, and Stephanie Broadhurst, who is willing to swap houses with the West family
A disabled man’s plan to downsize his council home was stopped just weeks before the move after it was discovered he was not exchanging with another disabled resident.
		
Click to expand...

*

http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/disabled-mans-bedroom-tax-house-7026295


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 25, 2014)

I can sort of understand where they are coming from, but seriously, to talk the guy financially as a consequence is brutal ineptitude.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2014)

Many people are in his situation and as such 'stuck' with no where to move to/no suitable swap or downsize available.

In other news, Happy Easter:



> * Bedroom tax: Housing association offers free creme egg to tenants suffering financial hardship as a result of spare room subsidy *



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-a-result-of-spare-room-subsidy-9282306.html


----------



## ddraig (Apr 25, 2014)

#1174


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2014)

Oooops!


----------



## ddraig (Apr 25, 2014)

s'ok, different source!


----------



## marty21 (Apr 25, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.getreading.co.uk/news/local-news/disabled-mans-bedroom-tax-house-7026295


 I've seen a few similar cases - I have had to measure some rooms as well to see if they were considered not rooms due their size - a further complication in an ill thought out vindictive tax


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 28, 2014)

_




The mother of a severely-disabled boy has been frustrated after a decision on whether or not she will be made exempt from “bedroom tax” was delayed.


Hayley Sims, 39, is fighting the Government’s under-occupancy charge as she does not consider a room at her * Mickleover  * home to be spare.


She says it is used to store medical supplies and equipment for her son.


With the help of *  Derby City Council,  * Miss Sims has taken the Government to a tribunal to appeal against having her housing benefit cut by 14% – a move she says has left her unable to pay her rent._

http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Der...tory-21014169-detail/story.html#ixzz300RKDE2O


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 29, 2014)

> Published: 28 Apr 2014 11:00
> 
> GRASPING UK Government bureaucrats are taking a disabled Port woman to a tribunal in a desperate bid to overturn her landmark ‘bedroom tax’ case win.
> 
> ...



http://www.greenocktelegraph.co.uk/...ted-disabled-woman-is-chased-for-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 30, 2014)

> ReClaim
> ReClaim are putting together a photographic exhibition of ........................... 'A YEAR IN STRUGGLE OF THE BEDROOM TAX' ..................................... to be shown at the event 'Liverpool: City of Working Class Resistance' this Saturday 3rd May 2014 at the Adelphi Hotel in Liverpool from 11am until late.


.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2014)

> *Households in the North East and North Yorkshire Hit Hardest by ‘Bedroom Tax’*
> Posted in Council TaxApr 30th, 2014
> 
> Residents in the North-East and North Yorkshire have reportedly been hit harder by the unpopular ‘bedroom tax’ than the rest of the UK, with a report from Oxfam and the New Policy Institute warning that cuts and changes to welfare support are plunging vulnerable and low-income families deeper into debt. These findings come from the study, ‘Multiple Cuts for the Poorest Families’, which revealed that 28,000 of the poorest households across the region are being hit hard by the government’s bedroom tax.



http://www.counciltaxadvisors.co.uk...d-north-yorkshire-hit-hardest-by-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2014)

> April 29, 2014 2:59 pm
> *Arrears for 60pc of Sandwell residents as 'bedroom tax' hits*
> *Nearly two-thirds of people affected by the controversial bedroom tax in one borough have already fallen behind on their rent payments since the policy took effect, it can be revealed today.*
> 
> ...



http://www.expressandstar.com/news/...pc-of-sandwell-residents-as-bedroom-tax-hits/


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 2, 2014)

> UK Government lifts cap on bedroom tax help
> 
> *power over discretionary housing payments devolved*
> 
> ...


http://www.holyrood.com/2014/05/uk-government-lifts-cap-on-bedroom-tax-help/


----------



## geminisnake (May 2, 2014)

only a few months before the referendum huh??


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 6, 2014)

Hell of a concession though; think of the message it sends!


----------



## existentialist (May 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Hell of a concession though; think of the message it sends!


I think they think we're all so stupid (or easily bought) that we won't notice messages.


----------



## geminisnake (May 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Hell of a concession though; think of the message it sends!



It doesn't send any message to me as the SNP in Holyrood had already managed to cover last years and this year Bedroom Tax, I filled in a form for DHP at the beginning of the year, was awarded the full amount and didn't even need to fill one in for this year, just got a letter saying it was awarded. 
Obviously they can't do that indefinetly without there being a hole in the budget elsewhere. It's not them giving us anything other than the freedom to spend some money as the Scottish Govt sees fit. It's not any extra.

Please tell me what the message is because I'm really not seeing it from here  The only message I can see is Westminster possibly pre-empting any further UN/EU investigation.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 6, 2014)

That they don't even take the policy seriously, or are prepared to ditch it to suit themselves


----------



## geminisnake (May 6, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> That they don't even take the policy seriously, or are prepared to ditch it to suit themselves



They introduced it to suit themselves imo. It was a UK wide policy inflicted throughout because they wanted to clear some properties in London as far as I can see. This was my opinion before it was introduced and it remains so.  They KNEW damn fine there weren't smaller properties for people to move to.


----------



## treelover (May 7, 2014)

Sounds like the old eastern bloc policy of zoning


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 12, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Rent arrears wiped out for Derby mum with disabled son after MP’s intervention


Read more at http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Ren...1084467-detail/story.html#0V4CSfjoWuh2T7R5.99


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 12, 2014)

* Own goal as Labour MP sees Bedroom Tax bid rejected *
Saturday, 10 May 2014 15:37
2 Comments


 

 







  By *Martin Kelly  
A Scottish Labour MP has suffered an embarrassing slap-down by his own party after he called on bedroom tax arrears to be written off and for payments to be re-funded to tenants.

http://www.newsnetscotland.com/inde...al-as-labour-mp-sees-bedroom-tax-bid-rejected*


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 12, 2014)

FFS!

Do they even want to win the election?


----------



## geminisnake (May 12, 2014)

Haha! @post1197  He is a despicable man, the chairchoob!!


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 14, 2014)

> *Bedroom tax appeal win on room size: Note the judges reasons well!!*
> [URL='http://speye.wordpress.com/category/uncategorized/']Uncategorized





> May 13, 2014 1 Comment
> Stifle that yawn reader as this is not just another bedroom tax appeal win on room size; note the judges reasons and note them well!


http://speye.wordpress.com/2014/05/13/bedroom-tax-appeal-win-on-room-size-note-the-judges-reasons-well/[/URL]


----------



## geminisnake (May 14, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> It was a UK wide policy inflicted throughout because they wanted to clear some properties in London as far as I can see.




And their own figures prove it, although they are not specific to the BT  Scroll down to page 6!

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...t_data/file/308526/benefit-cap-march-2014.pdf


----------



## scifisam (May 14, 2014)

Why would they care about empying properties in London? They don't give a shit about making social housing available. It's just a scheme to punish the poor, no more, no less.


----------



## geminisnake (May 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Why would they care about empying properties in London? They don't give a shit about making social housing available. It's just a scheme to punish the poor, no more, no less.



Imo they wanted to empty property so it could be sold and 'developed', which leads to less social housing which is the Tory way.


----------



## scifisam (May 14, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> Imo they wanted to empty property so it could be sold and 'developed', which leads to less social housing which is the Tory way.



Someone else would just move into the property, though. When councils want to sell off a property (usually a whole estate or large building) they just chuck the tenants out - no need for tactics like this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Someone else would just move into the property, though. When councils want to sell off a property (usually a whole estate or large building) they just chuck the tenants out - no need for tactics like this.




I disagree sam, from experience. The new tenancies on offer come with massive restrictions compared to 'secure' ones that used to be available. The new ones can have probabtion periods, be fixed for shorter terms and have shorter NSP options. Councils can rent them temporarily even with long term plans to sell off to developers.

I agree with your point:



> They don't give a shit about making social housing available. It's just a scheme to punish the poor, no more, no less



Theses new tenancies are just one way they are doing it whilst making sure they generate revenue in the meantime.


----------



## scifisam (May 14, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I disagree sam, from experience. The new tenancies on offer come with massive restrictions compared to 'secure' ones that used to be available. The new ones can have probabtion periods, be fixed for shorter terms and have shorter NSP options. Councils can rent them temporarily even with long term plans to sell off to developers.
> 
> I agree with your point:
> 
> ...



True about the new tenancies, but I don't think that was the government's aim. I don't think there was any deep planning in it at all, just "punish the poor - voters will like it."


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

scifisam said:


> True about the new tenancies, but I don't think that was the government's aim. I don't think there was any deep planning in it at all, just "punish the poor - voters will like it."




The government do know that local councils have these sell-off plans in process, what the lilkely outcomes will be and just how hard all of this is fucking w/c people sideways...so yeah, given that I really do feel it's part of a wider agenda of punishiment.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

* Pembrokeshire grandparents in 'Bedroom tax' row have their challenge heard in High Court *


_  May 15, 2014 06:00 _
_ By Rachael Misstear_
_ 
The Child Poverty Action Group (CPAG) who represented Paul and Susan Rutherford says it cold be weeks before a ruling is made_


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/pembrokeshire-grandparents-bedroom-tax-row-7122004


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

*Bedroom Tax’ In High Court Today Over Disabled Children’s Care Needs*



> _*The Coalition government, will today (May 14th 2014) face another challenge against their controversial ‘bedroom tax’ housing policy.*
> 
> 
> *Child Poverty Action Group (CPAG) will represent Susan and Paul Rotherford on behalf of their severely disabled grandson, Warren, later today at the High Court (The Royal Court of Justice), in a judicial review challenge to the ‘bedroom tax’.*
> ...



*http://welfarenewsservice.com/bedroom-tax-in-high-court-today-over-disabled-childrens-care-needs/*


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

> *Discretion and discrimination*
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.insidehousing.co.uk/home/blogs/discretion-and-discrimination/7003679.blog


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 15, 2014)

The MSM still can't get this right. Disabled people are not exempt from the bedroom tax


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2014)

> *Exclusive: New chapter in 'bedroom tax' saga - now councils run out of emergency funds to help worst cases *
> 
> *The 'bedroom tax' has resulted in thousands of people being “driven into destitution” as councils run out of the emergency funds set aside to rescue those worst affected.
> 
> ...



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...rgency-funds-to-help-worst-cases-9239766.html


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2014)

> *Birmingham bedroom tax subsidy 'may run out in 2015' *


http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/news/birmingham-bedroom-tax-subsidy-warning-6934498


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2014)

Just in case anyine didn't watch this:


----------



## marty21 (May 19, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> I disagree sam, from experience. The new tenancies on offer come with massive restrictions compared to 'secure' ones that used to be available. The new ones can have probabtion periods, be fixed for shorter terms and have shorter NSP options. Councils can rent them temporarily even with long term plans to sell off to developers.
> 
> I agree with your point:
> 
> ...


I sign up people for new council tenancies, they are still secure for tenants transferring from other tenancies, new tenants are signed up on introductory tenancies for the 1st year and then they become secure tenancies provided they haven't caused problems in the 1st year, such as not paying the rent, asb, etc


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2014)

marty21 said:


> I sign up people for new council tenancies, they are still secure for tenants transferring from other tenancies, new tenants are signed up on introductory tenancies for the 1st year and then they become secure tenancies provided they haven't caused problems in the 1st year, such as not paying the rent, asb, etc



I have experience and knowledge of people exchanging/transfering and being conned out of their secure tenancies. Some people do not know their rights and some housing providers are cunts.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2014)

> *Four ways to help tenants appeal against bedroom tax*
> By helping tenants in bedroom tax appeals, housing providers can bring more money into communities and minimise arrears



http://www.theguardian.com/housing-network/2014/may/22/four-ways-help-tenants-appeal-bedroom-tax


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 30, 2014)

> *Government Scores Bedroom Tax own Goal*


http://www.bevanfoundation.org/blog/government-scores-bedroom-tax-own-goal/


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 30, 2014)

> *Spare bedroom 'vital' to couple's grandson's care*
> Speaking after their case at the High Court earlier this month, Paul and Sue Rutherford told ITV News their spare bedroom was 'vital' for their disabled grandson's care. They fear that if the High Court doesn't rule in their favour, he may have to go into residential care.





http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2014-05-30/spare-bedroom-vital-to-couples-grandsons-care/


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 30, 2014)

> Paul Rutherford @PaulRutherford8 1h
> Its less than 12 hours now until our High Court ‪#‎BedroomTax‬ judgement is handed down.



This is the case: http://www.cpag.org.uk/content/bedroom-tax-Rutherford


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 30, 2014)

> *Opinion: The harsh reality of the bedroom tax*


http://www.24dash.com/news/housing/...harsh-reality-of-the-bedroom-tax#.U4gvzSj69pl


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 30, 2014)

> Prime Minister brings the great housing debate to Derbyshire and defends 'bedroom tax'



http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/Pri...using-debate/story-21164907-detail/story.html


----------



## Jeff Robinson (May 30, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.itv.com/news/wales/update/2014-05-30/spare-bedroom-vital-to-couples-grandsons-care/



They lost:

http://news.uk.msn.com/family-defeated-on-bedroom-tax



This is pretty unbelievable. I haven't read the full judgement but it seems that the basis of the ruling was that the bedroom tax is not discriminatory against disabled people because of the increased availability of DHPs. However, given the policy design of the DHPs (and the uncertainly and stress it causes) and the limited funding available for them (some councils ran out before the end of the financial year) they are hardly adequate to offset the discriminatory infringements of the rights of disabled families. This is precisely what the High Court ruled in 2012 when it held that HB reductions where adults needed a spare room for a carer was discriminatory. It is entirely arbitrary to not extend this exemption to children - if anything children should receive even greater protection than adults. I hope the appeal is successful.


----------



## Awesome Wells (May 31, 2014)

That makes me feel desperately sick.


> The judge, sitting at London's High Court, said that a discretionary housing payment made by Pembrokeshire County Council covered the rental shortfall until April 2015 and there was no evidence to suggest it would refuse to make up the shortfall in the future.



Aside from the obvious fact it's no guaranteed and that DHP funds are running out, doesn't this fact prove how pernicious this all is? The judge concedes they need and deserve a payment, but won't exempt them or set precedent accordingly because they might (and thus might not) get another DHP? How long can that situation continue - having to rely on insecure claims for support to exempt them from a sitaution forced upon them that should never exist?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2014)

The* D*epartment of *W*ankers and taking the* P*iss have published an interim evaluation on the Bedroom Tax.

Summary

Full report


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 15, 2014)

The National Housing Federations take on the report linked to above:



> *Bedroom tax not working, DWP report finds*
> The Department of Work and Pensions published the ‘Evaluation of Removal of the Spare Room Subsidy: Interim Report’ on 15 July 2014.
> 
> 15 July 2014
> ...



http://www.housing.org.uk/policy/policy-news/bedroom-tax-not-working-dwp-report-finds/


----------



## treelover (Jul 16, 2014)

> Nick Clegg will set the Lib Dems on a major collision course with the Tories over his plea to axe the hated Bedroom Tax.
> The Deputy PM has finally agreed the crippling penalties are battering the poorest in society and will push for change before next year’s general election.
> But if Mr Clegg cannot persuade his heartless Coalition partners the Bedroom Tax is a disastrous flop before Britain goes to the polls, he will make ditching it a Lib Dem manifesto pledge.
> 
> ...




Major news, Lib Dems to demand changes in bedroom tax

not over yet, but the end of the beginning?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 17, 2014)

Are you really so naive?


----------



## Celyn (Jul 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> Major news, Lib Dems to demand changes in bedroom tax
> 
> not over yet, but the end of the beginning?



Or just a bit of "look at me - I'm not a Tory really."

And what way did Clegg and most of his party vote on 12th November?


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 17, 2014)

I'll only believe that Clegg wants to "sort" the bedroom tax when something actually happens ! otherwise it is just empty words and posturing


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jul 17, 2014)

Whatever next, pledging not to increase tuition fees perhaps.


----------



## treelover (Jul 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Are you really so naive?




I said it was news and left a question mark, its electioneering.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 17, 2014)

_*'I'm sorry': Danny Alexander to disabled people - video*

Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander tells Channel 4 News he is sorry about the disabled people who were affected by the bedroom tax, as the Lib Dems withdraw their support for it. _

http://www.channel4.com/news/im-sorry-danny-alexander-bedroom-tax-video

Sorry?  Cock off.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 18, 2014)

"You used these people as guinea pigs didn't you?". That's exactly right isn't it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 18, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> "You used these people as guinea pigs didn't you?". That's exactly right isn't it?



Yes!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jul 22, 2014)

I've never heard corned beef apologise before.


----------



## marty21 (Jul 22, 2014)

treelover said:


> Major news, Lib Dems to demand changes in bedroom tax
> 
> not over yet, but the end of the beginning?


 couldn't respond last week but it is pathetic that clegg has made this annoucement  - as far as I can tell - he still supports bedroom tax for new tenants - which is pointless as housing associations/councils do not sign up tenants for flats with more rooms than they need anyway - so no new tenants are affected anyway - the only situation in which this would apply is if a tenant succeeds to a tenancy on the death of a family member - and generally we would agree to succession but they would have to move to a smaller flat.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2014)

marty21 said:


> .. as housing associations/councils do not sign up tenants for flats with more rooms than they need anyway...



Perhaps some do and some don't?  Or perhaps all housing associations now avoid letting people rent flats too big for their needs.

I do know that it certainly used to be OK to allow people to rent flats with no more than one extra bedroom (using here in Glasgow as an example), which surprised me, but that was the case.  It's also the case that there are relatively few one-bedroom flats, so, in my case, a 2-bedroomed flat in a very-low-demand area seemed a good idea.

I have been extremely lucky in that plans to demolish my previous block resulted in my moving to a one-bedroom flat, but in time to avoid the bedroom tax.

Oops, reading again, I infer that you work in a housing association or similar, so you're likely to know the ins-and-outs of it all a lot better than I do.   

Still, Alexander is certainly an arse.   "Sorry", indeed.	  	  I don't think anyone can go along to pay the rent using a "sorry" from Danny Alexander instead of banknotes.


----------



## marty21 (Jul 22, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Perhaps some do and some don't?  Or perhaps all housing associations now avoid letting people rent flats too big for their needs.
> 
> I do know, that it certainly used to be OK with no more than one extra bedroom (using here in Glasgow as an example), which surprised me, but that was the case.  It's also the case that there are relatively few one-bedroom flats, so, in my case, a 2-bedroomed flat in a very-low-demand area seemed a good idea.
> 
> ...


 nearly 20 years in the housing sector - so yes


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2014)

Wow, long time.  	  I just thought, you know that old trope about giving someone a watch when they retire?  It would be sort of cute if housing experts were given a little doll's house, or Lego house.

Only "sort of", admittedly.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've never heard corned beef apologise before.



Considering how many cut fingers across the country have been caused by corned beef tins, perhaps it should apologise more.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 22, 2014)

marty21 said:


> couldn't respond last week but it is pathetic that clegg has made this annoucement  - as far as I can tell - he still supports bedroom tax for new tenants - which is pointless as housing associations/councils do not sign up tenants for flats with more rooms than they need anyway - so no new tenants are affected anyway - the only situation in which this would apply is if a tenant succeeds to a tenancy on the death of a family member - and generally we would agree to succession but they would have to move to a smaller flat.



The exception to this being places which aren't lettable to anyone other than a single person (or 2 people for 3 bed places etc), like high rise flats, not suitable for families, or large houses in areas with demand only from single people. These are now being left empty and boarded up. So it does have some effect


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2014)

BigTom said:


> The exception to this being places which aren't lettable to anyone other than a single person (or 2 people for 3 bed places etc), like *high rise flats, not suitable for families*, or large houses in areas with demand only from single people. These are now being left empty and boarded up. So it does have some effect


(Bolding mine)

Aha, that might explain my slight confusion earlier, when I said that in my experience, it was OK for one person to have a 2 bedroomed flat.  In my case, it was indeed a high-rise block, so that might explain things.	  It's not that I doubted *Marty21*, merely that my own experience was different.

I'm not quite sure about the high-rise "not suitable for families" thing, to be honest.  Thinking of a housing scheme/estate, of mixed high-rise/low-rise flats, where children can go to little playparks dotted all over the place without crossing roads, and can go to their nursery school and primary schools, admittedly  crossing one road in some cases, but only an internal road, not a big busy thing, and staffed by lollipop people at school times, plus playing fields and youth sporty centre thing, plus a fair old bit of grass and trees and stuff, seems to be not all that bad, really.	I mean, you could be in a not high-rise house,and even have a garden, but be effectively cut off by bloody great roads _etc., _and I frequently pass by areas fitting that description.



> These are now being left empty and boarded up



That is utterly dreadful.  It's little short of evil to have houses boarded when people exist who need houses.

Oh well, when I rule the world  .....


----------



## BigTom (Jul 22, 2014)

Celyn said:


> (Bolding mine)
> 
> Aha, that might explain my slight confusion earlier, when I said that in my experience, it was OK for one person to have a 2 bedroomed flat.  In my case, it was indeed a high-rise block, so that might explain things.	  It's not that I doubted *Marty21*, merely that my own experience was different.
> 
> ...



I think the thing with high rise flats and families is to do with lifts breaking and difficulties getting up lots of stairs, not access to parks or anything like that (but I don't work in housing).


----------



## marty21 (Jul 22, 2014)

BigTom said:


> The exception to this being places which aren't lettable to anyone other than a single person (or 2 people for 3 bed places etc), like high rise flats, not suitable for families, or large houses in areas with demand only from single people. These are now being left empty and boarded up. So it does have some effect


haven't  noticed  that happening, but tbf, I don't manage any big blocks - I guess in that situation we would try and let it to a working applicant - but that is only a guess


----------



## marty21 (Jul 22, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Wow, long time.  	  I just thought, you know that old trope about giving someone a watch when they retire?  It would be sort of cute if housing experts were given a little doll's house, or Lego house.
> 
> Only "sort of", admittedly.


give me a doll's house and a decent pension and I'd be off like a shot, unfortunately the tory myth about 'gold plated pensions' is a complete lie


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 22, 2014)

Celyn said:


> (Bolding mine)
> 
> Aha, that might explain my slight confusion earlier, when I said that in my experience, it was OK for one person to have a 2 bedroomed flat.  In my case, it was indeed a high-rise block, so that might explain things.	  It's not that I doubted *Marty21*, merely that my own experience was different.
> 
> ...



You tend to get lifestyle conflicts in blocks with loads of different age groups - IME, the best run/best to live in high rise blocks are those that are only let to a specific age group.

Plus kids like to mess about and for kids growing up in tower blocks, messing about means getting on the roof of the block, getting on the roof of the lift, riding on the lift's counterweight etc - All of which might be a laugh but it's dangerous as fuck.



marty21 said:


> haven't  noticed  that happening, but tbf, I don't manage any big blocks - *I guess in that situation we would try and let it to a working applicant* - but that is only a guess



That's how they're doing it round our way with the two and three bedroom upper floor maisonettes - They were built as family accom but ended up not being suitable (they're not _that_ high, but they don't have lifts), so until the BT were let to more or less anyone who wanted one - Now though, they're only being let to working people - Which, AFAIC, is another intended effect of the BT - To get people on benefits out of social housing and into private.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 23, 2014)

Nothing to see here, move on.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 7, 2014)

*Dewsbury couple win spare bedroom housing benefit fight*







Kevin Gresham said the new system was "flawed".

A couple from West Yorkshire who went to court to challenge a cut to their housing benefit have won their case.

Kevin and Ann Gresham live in a two-bedroom flat in Dewsbury. It has been adapted for wheelchair use as Mrs Gresham has a disability.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-28686285


----------



## Awesome Wells (Aug 23, 2014)

Even if you accept the DWP explanation, and I don't, this bollocks about 'soaring benefits bill' is still only temporary. Reducing people's beneift by x% is only going to delay the point at which the 'soaring benefits bill' becomes too much, which, i would assume, is the reason why a 'soaring benefits bill' is a problem.

PS. Up yours IDS.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 1, 2014)

> The MP who has the first Private Members’ Bill will seek support from fellow MPs to cut the bedroom tax when it is debated in the House of Commons next *Friday, 5th September*.
> 
> Liberal Democrat MP, Andrew George, has chosen to focus his Affordable Homes Bill on an effort to introduce significant exemptions to the Government’s Spare Room Subsidy/Bedroom Tax and is urging his Liberal Democrat colleagues and opposition MPs to back him.
> 
> ...



http://www.andrewgeorge.org.uk/mp-hopes-cut-bedroom-tax/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 1, 2014)

every attempt to remove this pernicious evil nonsense has so far failed; what makes him think he can succeed here?

the only chance we have is the hope that an incoming labour government will honour their promise. 

that's as good as it gets right now, other than civil disobedience.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 10, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> _*'I'm sorry': Danny Alexander to disabled people - video*
> 
> Chief Secretary to the Treasury Danny Alexander tells Channel 4 News he is sorry about the disabled people who were affected by the bedroom tax, as the Lib Dems withdraw their support for it. _
> 
> ...



Cunt. did he apologise for calling them 'bedroom blockers'?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 11, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> Cunt. did he apologise for calling them 'bedroom blockers'?



Just googled that.  What a shameless about-face from the libdems, as if doing a partial u turn on a policy that they repeatedly voted for will make anybody forget that about their support for the tripling of tuition fees, the privatisation of the NHS, the Libyan intervention, the sell off of Royal Mail and a whole host of austerity measures and welfare reforms. I say 'partial u turn' because this bill does not end the bedroom tax but rather introduces further exemptions to it, the scope of which are not yet clearly defined and in likelihood will, whenever/if they are enacted in law, make HB payments even more complex to administer and undoubtedly generate more delays, further stress and a string of judicial reviews.


----------



## toggle (Sep 11, 2014)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.andrewgeorge.org.uk/mp-hopes-cut-bedroom-tax/



he's one of the least worst of the liberals. he'ds got a fairly strong record on going against the coalition on NHS 'reform' as well. might even hold his seat.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 19, 2014)

A harrowing tail that really illustrates just how wicked this policy is:



> Homeless and alone... woman evicted after 30 years over a £200 bedroom tax bill
> 
> A woman who was evicted from her home of almost 30 years after being unable to pay a £210 bedroom tax bill is now homeless in Lincoln. Carol Sutherland had been getting by on her dead husband’s pension at her home in Waddington since he died in 2001... After losing her home, she was forced to live for some time in a field of cows in a makeshift den with a heap of straw for a bed... Now, she spends her days sleeping while waiting to get a bed at the Nomad Trust homeless shelter on Monks Road. She says she often has to share a room with drug addicts and gets food at Lincoln’s St Mary le Wigford’s church but has given up hope of turning her life around.



http://www.lincolnshireecho.co.uk/H...2944602-detail/story.html#sKwFJo4URbyyhF2y.99


----------



## Awesome Wells (Sep 21, 2014)

Fucking hell! 

PS: don't read the comments


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 25, 2014)

> A LANCASHIRE man with a history of mental-health problems has been left to rot in prison for more than three months after falling into arrears with his bedroom tax.
> 
> Michael Hilton is awaiting sentence after pleading guilty to committing criminal damage to roof tiles which he smashed as he desperately tried to escape bailiffs and police.



http://www.morningstaronline.co.uk/...for-missing-bedroom-tax-payments#.VCSZrtyyjwJ


----------



## treelover (Oct 2, 2014)

> Alex Salmond has announced legislation to prevent councils collecting on debt connected to the poll tax.
> "After 25 years, it's time that the poll tax was finally dead and buried in Scotland."



Going around social media, any confirmation, apparently he said it as First Ministers Questions, can the Scottish Gov't do this?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29413074

update, its here


----------



## Awesome Wells (Oct 3, 2014)

http://a6er.wordpress.com/2014/10/0...l-to-inspect-and-measure-a-purported-bedroom/


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 7, 2014)

> *Severely disabled woman took her life during battle over bedroom tax*
> 
> ... the woman who was an accident victim and was left severely disabled after an operation went wrong killed herself after being turned down for discretionary housing benefit.
> “Every bit of the way she had to fight. There’s no way that you could say that the bedroom tax was the sole factor of her death but just to get the message that they are being turned down for housing and she did need the extra room because of all the equipment she needed.
> ...



http://www.bournemouthecho.co.uk/ne...took_her_life_during_battle_over_bedroom_tax/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 17, 2014)

> *MPs to debate housing benefit and food banks *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.parliament.uk/business/news/2014/december/mps-debate-housing-benefit-and-food-banks/


----------



## nino_savatte (Dec 17, 2014)

These Tory bastards and the Lib Dem henchmen keep referring to the Bedroom Tax as the "Spare Room Subsidy" but I know of no form of subsidy that effectively deducts money from people.


----------



## stethoscope (Dec 17, 2014)

Image from #Westminster


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 17, 2014)

nino_savatte said:


> These Tory bastards and the Lib Dem henchmen keep referring to the Bedroom Tax as the "Spare Room Subsidy" but I know of no form of subsidy that effectively deducts money from people.



They call it the 'removal of the spare room subsidy' to create the false impression that the pre-existing housing benefit policy 'subsidised' 'spare' bedrooms.


----------



## stethoscope (Dec 17, 2014)

treelover said:


> Major news, Lib Dems to demand changes in bedroom tax
> 
> not over yet, but the end of the beginning?



That went well.


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## nino_savatte (Dec 17, 2014)

Jeff Robinson said:


> They call it the 'removal of the spare room subsidy' to create the false impression that the pre-existing housing benefit policy 'subsidised' 'spare' bedrooms.


Ah, I never heard the entire phrase. Dishonest cunts.


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## Treacle Toes (May 29, 2015)

GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## lizzieloo (May 29, 2015)

Is that for real?


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## Treacle Toes (May 29, 2015)

lizzieloo said:


> Is that for real?



It is.


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## nino_savatte (May 29, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 72051
> 
> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## purenarcotic (May 29, 2015)

Wow.  Just... Wow.


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## Treacle Toes (May 29, 2015)




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## Libertad (May 29, 2015)

Not liking.


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## cesare (May 29, 2015)

Kinell


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## Belushi (May 29, 2015)

Twats


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## Treacle Toes (May 29, 2015)

Drip, drip, drip...normalising the idea that 1. the BT is right, 2. people who are forced to pay it actually have money to spare/buy a new bed. I work full time and can't afford a £799 bed, regardless of it's discount. It's fucking ugly also.  Remember the sky TV/booze/fags stuff from last year?  Same assumptions, crass, patronising and sneering.


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## Treacle Toes (May 31, 2015)

*Firm which mocked Bedroom Tax victims in advert has fatcat Tory MP as a director *
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/firm-mocked-bedroom-tax-victims-5794079


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## westcoast1 (May 31, 2015)

Really pisses me off that they penalise people and don't have single bed flats to offer them. They need hung.


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## zippyRN (Jun 1, 2015)

Jeff Robinson said:


> They call it the 'removal of the spare room subsidy' to create the false impression that the pre-existing housing benefit policy 'subsidised' 'spare' bedrooms.



because it did for  Social Housing tenants who no longer or  wouldn't, if new applicants, qualify for the property they  are in ... 

levelling the playing field with other HB claimants  or  people who actually   work for living and whose housing  is influenced by a balance of income and need ...


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## BigTom (Jun 1, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> because it did for  Social Housing tenants who no longer or  wouldn't, if new applicants, qualify for the property they  are in ...
> 
> levelling the playing field with other HB claimants  or  people who actually   work for living and whose housing  is influenced by a balance of income and need ...


And phrasing like that is designed to give the impression that only people who are out of work can claim hb, when in fact iirc around a quarter of hb claimants "actually work", and a little over a quarter are pensioners (who were always exempted from this charge, unlike, for instance, foster carers, who had to argue the rooms their foster children used weren't spare).


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## Libertad (Jun 1, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> levelling the playing field with other HB claimants or people who actually work for living and whose housing is influenced by a balance of income and need ...



Oh do fuck off.


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## StoneRoad (Jun 1, 2015)

zippyRN do fuck off this thread, it is for helping those affected by this policy, not cheap attempts at political point-scoring. TIA.


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## zippyRN (Jun 2, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> zippyRN do fuck off this thread, it is for helping those affected by this policy, not cheap attempts at political point-scoring. TIA.



 and what about helping people  who are unable to get a gold plated  heavily under market  rent  from an RSL ?


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## BigTom (Jun 2, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> and what about helping people  who are unable to get a gold plated  heavily under market  rent  from an RSL ?


Gold plated? What on earth do you mean by that, or are you actually just a Tory wanker?

Private rentals are really fucking excessive rents, let's not let a warped market colour our thinking here. People in council housing are charged an affordable rent. That rent returns a surplus to the taxpayer each year (on my phone, I'll get links later if you want them). Therefore market rents are unnaturally high, so any comparison with them is inherently flawed. But then you're only saying this stuff because you want to fuck over people who have it better than you.

Given that there are fuck all smaller houses for people to move to, so very few people affected have moved, and that larger houses and certain types of flats are now being left empty due to lack of demand or suitability, do you think the bedroom tax has helped many people?

I think a better way to help the people you identify would be to build new council housing. Aside from the direct effect of increasing the amount of affordable housing available, this would also create a downward pressure on rents in the private sector, so that social housing rents would no longer be as under market price as they are now.


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## StoneRoad (Jun 2, 2015)

I agree with BigTom - this country needs far more social housing than is currently available, and in particular small units such as one-bed flats.
When in Poland I visited some small flats, which consisted of a bed/sitting room, kitchenette and shower/toilet all off a small hallway. This old design is very compact but they were very popular and well cared for, and still being built !


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## Libertad (Jun 2, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> I agree with BigTom - this country needs far more social housing than is currently available, and in particular small units such as one-bed flats.
> When in Poland I visited some small flats, which consisted of a bed/sitting room, kitchenette and shower/toilet all off a small hallway. This old design is very compact but they were very popular and well cared for, and still being built !



They sound inadequate as homes.


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## StoneRoad (Jun 2, 2015)

On the contrary, they are much liked and people are proud of them, they are mostly occupied by a single person or a couple. But they are not meant for families and there are other designs for them, as well as free market housing.


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## Libertad (Jun 2, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> On the contrary, they are much liked and people are proud of them, they are mostly occupied by a single person or a couple. But they are not meant for families and there are other designs for them, as well as free market housing.



No separate bedroom though? They sound as if they have been built down to a price. Whoever designed them probably didn't have to live in them.


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## StoneRoad (Jun 2, 2015)

Part of that is the very widespread use of "sofa-beds" which surprised me. I suppose it saves on heating and space ........ but what they do if they need to stay in bed when the flat is shared ? never did get the answer to that.


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## Libertad (Jun 2, 2015)

Couples on shift work? Illness? It's inadequate housing,"good enough" is not good enough. Maybe that's just me and my "aspirational" attitude.


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## campanula (Jun 2, 2015)

Well this sort of stuff is going up in the thousands in Cambridge - touted as 'student accomodation' (for nefarious development reasons involving infrastructure...or lack of)...or 'boutique' or 'bijoux' apartments, they are snapped up as BTL investments, supposedly catering to an army of Microsoft tech-workers here in the 'silicon fen'..but inevitably, will be used to house homeless families in the coming decade. While house building (or rather slummy flats) are booming here in East Anglia, we have an affordability problem equal to London with all the usual supply and demand fails (for renters, of course - a roaring success for landlords).


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## zippyRN (Jun 2, 2015)

nino_savatte said:


> These Tory bastards and the Lib Dem henchmen keep referring to the Bedroom Tax as the "Spare Room Subsidy" but I know of no form of subsidy that effectively deducts money from people.



other than the simple and inalienable fact  that if the landlord was not an RSL the HB paid would be based on the household size , not the rent charged ...  underoccupation is  problem within the social housing estate as  is  the continued occupation of social housing by those without  an actual housing need   but  no mechanism available to  adjust their   rent level  fro mthe social housing  rates to the affordable rates that  some RSLs charge on  none 'housing list'  properties ...


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## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> other than the simple and inalienable fact  that if the landlord was not an RSL the HB paid would be based on the household size , not the rent charged ...  underoccupation is  problem within the social housing estate as  is  the continued occupation of social housing by those without  an actual housing need   but  no mechanism available to  adjust their   rent level  fro mthe social housing  rates to the affordable rates that  some RSLs charge on  none 'housing list'  properties ...


Forcing people into penury and, ultimately, eviction is not a tried and tested method for addressing the housing shortage. In fact, it's illogical and a little like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. Under-occupation also occurs in the private sector.

"Simple and inalienable", my arse. Your remedy, like that of the government, is simplistic.


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2015)

nino_savatte said:


> Forcing people into penury and, ultimately, eviction is not a tried and tested method for addressing the housing shortage. In fact, it's illogical and a little like trying to kill a fly with a sledgehammer. Under-occupation also occurs in the private sector.
> 
> "Simple and inalienable", my arse. Your remedy, like that of the government, is simplistic.



There's no point trying to reason with zippyRN.  Look at his posting history.  Be best if everyone either stuck him on ignore or heaped so much abuse on him every time he posted that he gave up and fucked off.


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## StoneRoad (Jun 2, 2015)

Has already been told to f*ck off out of this thread, more than once !


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## nino_savatte (Jun 2, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> There's no point trying to reason with zippyRN.  Look at his posting history.  Be best if everyone either stuck him on ignore or heaped so much abuse on him every time he posted that he gave up and fucked off.


I don't actually know zippyRN but thanks for the heads up.


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## Roadkill (Jun 2, 2015)

nino_savatte said:


> I don't actually know zippyRN but thanks for the heads up.



Don't read (some of) his back posts unless you actually _want_ to be angry.


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## Celyn (Jun 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> They sound inadequate as homes.



When I was sharing flats of differing shapes and sizes in different areas of the country, I would have LOVED that arrangement that let one live alone.  It might be a bit cramped but definitely no more so than some flatshares.


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## Treacle Toes (May 11, 2016)

The new DWP secretary Stephen Crabb is taking his own constituents to court to make them pay the bedroom tax


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

Yep, replaced IDS with an equally cuntish DWP minister.


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## marty21 (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Yep, replaced IDS with an equally cuntish DWP minister.


And IDS is now a champion of the poor  claiming the EU is mean to them


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## Treacle Toes (May 11, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Yep, replaced IDS with an equally cuntish DWP minister.


Funny that...Cunt was my first thought too.


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## stethoscope (May 11, 2016)

marty21 said:


> And IDS is now a champion of the poor  claiming the EU is mean to them



He's a champion of something…


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## ddraig (May 11, 2016)

Crabb is dangerous, proper malicious


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## Libertad (May 11, 2016)

ddraig said:


> Crabb is dangerous, proper malicious



One misguided religious zealot replaced by another misguided religious zealot.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 10, 2020)

This * might * be good news ...









						MPs oppose 'bedroom tax' being applied to domestic abuse survivors
					

A rape survivor, living in a specially adapted home for her safety, had housing benefits cut by 14%.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 12, 2020)

Didn't affect me but a lady on the same street had to move from where she had lived for thirty years and brought up her family,what outraged me was not much of a reaction from the public other than those it did affect,this should have been another poll tax moment.


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## equationgirl (May 13, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Didn't affect me but a lady on the same street had to move from where she had lived for thirty years and brought up her family,what outraged me was not much of a reaction from the public other than those it did affect,this should have been another poll tax moment.


Was that specifically due to the bedroom tax or because she was wanting a smaller place?


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 13, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Was that specifically due to the bedroom tax or because she was wanting a smaller place?


Bedroom tax,lady just couldn't spare the extra cash,think it was £14 per week,thats not much to me but is for many people.


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## equationgirl (May 14, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> Bedroom tax,lady just couldn't spare the extra cash,think it was £14 per week,thats not much to me but is for many people.


Of course people on a fixed income suddenly faced with a shortfall to find, it's going to cause hardship.

If the system was working as intended with a decent number of smaller properties to move into, that's one thing. But there isn't, so the current system just seems punitive.

Scotland, if memory serves, did not implement the bedroom tax.


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## campanula (May 14, 2020)

I pay almost 1/4 of my ESA towards bedroom tax because I have lived here for35 years, love my garden, neighbours, allotment and house (the first secure housing I have had in my entire life). Plus no other choices on offer apart from a 2nd floot flat, miles from anyone.
Obviously, I also manage a fair few money-making schemes to make up the difference (none of them  legal though).


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 14, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Of course people on a fixed income suddenly faced with a shortfall to find, it's going to cause hardship.
> 
> If the system was working as intended with a decent number of smaller properties to move into, that's one thing. But there isn't, so the current system just seems punitive.
> 
> Scotland, if memory serves, did not implement the bedroom tax.


Thats right,its all about money AGAIN,it was the same with council house sales,they didn't replace the houses they had sold to rent,and like you say there is a shortage of smaller places for them to move into,the lady i was talking about her house was a three bedroom semi although the third room was really a box room,she managed to get a one bedroom flat,but she didn't want to move and why should she? she lived their for thirty five years brought her family up,and yes they seem to enjoy punishing people,and yes i believe Scotland doesn't have it,wish i could move there they are more civilized,don't think they have Student loans either.


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 14, 2020)

campanula said:


> I pay almost 1/4 of my ESA towards bedroom tax because I have lived here for35 years, love my garden, neighbours, allotment and house (the first secure housing I have had in my entire life). Plus no other choices on offer apart from a 2nd floot flat, miles from anyone.
> Obviously, I also manage a fair few money-making schemes to make up the difference (none of them  legal though).


Yes its a bloody outrage,what gets me is they brought it in without and real protest,think it was a case of i am alright jack.


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## geminisnake (May 17, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Scotland, if memory serves, did not implement the bedroom tax.



We do have the bedroom tax, it's just another thing the SNP mitigate against. I don't believe that any of the other parties would do so and though I am no fan of the SNP they get my vote atm for this. If we had to 'downsize' we would have to go private and our rent bill would increase. This is a policy to get rid of folk in London that was applied BADLY nationally.
You have to fill in a Discretionary Housing payment form to get the tax mitigated, just in case anyone still needs that info


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## geminisnake (May 17, 2020)

Deadstick 1944 said:


> i believe Scotland doesn't have it,wish i could move there they are more civilized,don't think they have Student loans either.



We do have student loans and they are now automatically taken into account (as income) should you apply for a rent rebate, part of the reason I will never go back to college. Bloody sure as feck I'm not getting into debt to pay rent


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## equationgirl (May 17, 2020)

Yes, Scotland has always had student loans Deadstick 1944


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## Deadstick 1944 (May 17, 2020)

geminisnake said:


> We do have student loans and they are now automatically taken into account (as income) should you apply for a rent rebate, part of the reason I will never go back to college. Bloody sure as feck I'm not getting into debt to pay rent


Thanks for clearing that up.


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