# Nails it on "white male privilege"



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 14, 2016)

I hate to break it to feminists, but 'white male privilege' is a myth - Spectator Blogs 
I'm sure some would rant at me for posting this. I suppose I have black male privilege! 
I don't agree with everything O'Neill says, but he's good to start a talking point. Here though, I hope he's silenced one.


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## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

Oh good. Wheel out the MRAs.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Christ, I really hate The Spectator


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## Buddy Bradley (Jan 14, 2016)

Pointing out that bin-men don't get paid very well doesn't invalidate the point that being white and male is, on average, a more beneficial state of affairs than the alternatives. It also fails to account for the fact that income and education is not the whole story when it comes to privilege.


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## toggle (Jan 14, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I hate to break it to feminists, but 'white male privilege' is a myth - Spectator Blogs
> I'm sure some would rant at me for posting this. I suppose I have black male privilege!
> I don't agree with everything O'Neill says, but he's good to start a talking point. Here though, I hope he's silenced one.




lets have a look at some of his recent output...

It's time to smash the whole welfare system - Spectator Blogs

Should people be free to make death threats? Sometimes, yes - Spectator Blogs

Jeremy Corbyn isn't a man of the people. He's a man against the people - Spectator Blogs

The sacred mother-baby bond is being eroded by an overzealous state - Spectator Blogs

A compliment isn't misogynistic. Why can't feminists understand this? - Spectator Blogs

Make politics more 'transparent' and politicians will become less honest - Spectator Blogs

'Call me Caitlyn, or else': the rise of authoritarian transgender politics - Spectator Blogs



there's more, but i've had enough bile for one day.


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## Jeff Robinson (Jan 14, 2016)

toggle said:


> lets have a look at some of his recent output...
> 
> It's time to smash the whole welfare system - Spectator Blogs
> 
> ...



Yeah, O'Neil's a vile misogynist and generally an all round disgusting rightwing bigot who just says things for money. He's a prick.


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## toggle (Jan 14, 2016)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Yeah, O'Neil's a vile misogynist and generally an all round disgusting rightwing bigot who just says things for money. He's a prick.




the whole agenda is the preservation of the privilage of wealthy blokes.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 14, 2016)




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## belboid (Jan 14, 2016)

Ohh dear, what an awful article. I especially like this line - "to them it’s all about biology, race, gender: fixed traits, which they think define us as individuals and determine our destinies."  Except if he had bothered reading anything by those evil radfems, he'd have noticed that one of their key points is that there are no such things as 'fixed traits.'  But why let tedious facts interfere with a good rant?


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## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2016)

toggle said:


> the whole agenda is the preservation of the privilage of wealthy blokes.


and using a class of people he despises and would write loads of shite about were they his subject of the day to do his rant


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## stethoscope (Jan 14, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I suppose I have black male privilege!



No, which shows you have as much grasp of the concept as O'Neill.


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## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

It basically knocks together a strawman to say 'white male privilege isn't a fair label because there are poor white males struggling in life'. Great work detective, except that's not who the label gets used on, is it. It's, you know, white males _with privilege_. Like fucking _Gamergate _dickheads that think they're hard done by & oppressed when, well, pretty much the slightest negative thing - or actually, nothing - happens to them.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

He's right about the left being colonised by the middle class, who, having no business with class struggle, focus on identity politics, often in ways that harm the working class (at whom they sneer).  But, whilst some of the stats he cites might be true (I'd have to check them), the fact that the overwhelming majority of positions of power in politics, commerce, religion, popular culture etc. are held by white men demonstrates that the central plank of his argument in this article is simply wrong.


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## IC3D (Jan 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> Except if he had bothered reading anything by those evil radfems, he'd have noticed that one of their key points is that there are no such things as 'fixed traits.'




Isn't ethnicity a fixed trait though.


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## agricola (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> He's right about the left being colonised by the middle class, who, having no business with class struggle, focus on identity politics, often in ways that harm the working class (at whom they sneer).  But, whilst some of the stats he cites might be true (I'd have to check them), the fact that the overwhelming majority of positions of power in politics, commerce, religion, popular culture etc. are held by white men demonstrates that the central plank of his argument in this article is simply wrong.



Not really; that was a terrible argument but of course the reason why those people who occupy those positions of power (and why in many cases their predecessors did) isn't "because they are white men".


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## IC3D (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> He's right about the left being colonised by the middle class, who, having no business with class struggle, focus on identity politics, often in ways that harm the working class (at whom they sneer).



That is true also


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## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

mauvais said:


> It basically knocks together a strawman to say 'white male privilege isn't a fair label because there are poor white males struggling in life'. Great work detective, except that's not who the label gets used on, is it. It's, you know, white males _with privilege_. Like fucking _Gamergate _dickheads that think they're hard done by & oppressed when, well, pretty much the slightest negative thing - or actually, nothing - happens to them.



I think that there are plenty of gamergaters from less than well off backgrounds too, it's the 21st Century equivalent of things like abortion, gay rights etc in the US. It's culture war nonsense to distract people from the real enemies.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Even the title of that article is dripping with contempt for women.


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## belboid (Jan 14, 2016)

IC3D said:


> Isn't ethnicity a fixed trait though.


not really. What changes is not 'the thing itself,' but our definition of it, and the traits supposedly connected to it.


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## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think that there are plenty of gamergaters from less than well off backgrounds too, it's the 21st Century equivalent of things like abortion, gay rights etc in the US. It's culture war nonsense to distract people from the real enemies.


No doubt. But in the context, and not to turn this into another GG thread, it's inescapably a privileged position. Games are predominantly aimed at straight white young males.


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## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Bin man is a pretty well paid job from my understanding. 

I'd rather be a bin man than a cleaner or McJob worker.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> He's right about the left being colonised by the middle class, who, having no business with class struggle, focus on identity politics, often in ways that harm the working class (at whom they sneer).  But, whilst some of the stats he cites might be true (I'd have to check them), the fact that the overwhelming majority of positions of power in politics, commerce, religion, popular culture etc. are held by white men demonstrates that the central plank of his argument in this article is simply wrong.



What political affiliations would you prefer the middle classes to be assigned to?


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## IC3D (Jan 14, 2016)

belboid said:


> not really. What changes is not 'the thing itself,' but our definition of it, and the traits supposedly connected to it.


So a radfems critique of the defining traits of a white male are based on the power of that group as a whole which is generalising. Are there any equivalent traits of other males?


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## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No doubt. But in the context, and not to turn this into another GG thread, it's inescapably a privileged position. Games are predominantly aimed at straight white young males.



I think these days you can just change that to males, and even then with qualifiers.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> What political affiliations would you prefer the middle classes to be assigned to?



I'd be happy if they didn't try to take over 'the left'.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

IC3D said:


> Isn't ethnicity a fixed trait though.



No. It is based on a vague yet arbitrary set of categories artificially imposed on a continuous spectrum of variation.


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## IC3D (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> No. It is based on a vague yet arbitrary set of categories artificially imposed on a continuous spectrum of variation.



So what radfems say is bollocks then.


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## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

mauvais said:


> No doubt. But in the context, and not to turn this into another GG thread, it's inescapably a privileged position. Games are predominantly aimed at straight white young males.



Nope. You are perpetuating an old stereotype.

The average age of someone who plays games is 31 years old. In fact, more gamers are over the age of 36 than between the ages of 18 to 35 or under the age of 18. They are also mostly men, but by a slimming margin. Men make up 52 percent. From 2012 to 2013, the number of women gamers over the age of 50 grew by 32 percent.

Game companies know this and aim now for the older gamer, those with disposable income stuffed in their pockets and not the market full of young people struggling to find employment and low wages.


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## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> I think these days you can just change that to males, and even then with qualifiers.


I don't agree. Lots of things are changing, which is a positive, but if you were to come to the most popular games fresh and look at availability, popularity, narratives, what player characters look like, and so on, to say nothing of the communities playing the things, I'm pretty sure you'd form a strong opinion on what the majority were aimed at.



Gromit said:


> Nope. You are perpetuating an old stereotype.
> 
> The average age of someone who plays games is 31 years old. In fact, more gamers are over the age of 36 than between the ages of 18 to 35 or under the age of 18. They are also mostly men, but by a slimming margin. Men make up 52 percent. From 2012 to 2013, the number of women gamers over the age of 50 grew by 32 percent.


For this to be relevant to the context (of GG) you'd need to define what games are. Candy Crush is a game, but it's not what I'm talking about. Also, I'm 31 and I play games.

Edit: have a skim scroll through this: The Top Video Games Of 2015


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> I'd be happy if they didn't try to take over 'the left'.



Are you talking about Blairites or people who, for whatever circumstances, weren't born working class?


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## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

31 _is_ young


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Are you talking about Blairites or people who, for whatever circumstances, weren't born working class?



Both.


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## stethoscope (Jan 14, 2016)

There is certainly a limit (dead end) with identity politics and how much it can achieve (as it sits comfortably inside neo-liberalism), whilst it does still have its uses. It's just that O'Neill can't even make a decent argument about that either.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

IC3D said:


> So what radfems say is bollocks then.



Nope. Because even though ethnicity is not an objective thing, the world generally operates on the assumption that it is.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> Both.



And where should the middle classes be made throw their political lot in with?


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## binka (Jan 14, 2016)

Mentioned briefly on another topic, you should watch this pathetic parade of idiots to get a decent grasp of what mra are about:

Reggie Yates' Extreme UK, 2. Men at War

_Reggie meets the angry young British men who think feminism has gone too far - and some of the women who have felt their wrath on an internet tailor-made for anti-feminism._


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## LDC (Jan 14, 2016)

I _suspect_ he doesn't mean middle class people per se, but those who bring the liberal politics and cultural baggage of the middle class with them and let that influence and dominate the political projects they're involved in rather than recognise it for what it is and challenge and discard it.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I _suspect_ he doesn't mean middle class people per se, but those who bring the liberal politics and cultural baggage of the middle class with them and let that influence and dominate the political projects they're involved in rather than recognise it for what it is and challenge and discard it.



I wish someone would publish a road map for us unfortunate "middle classes". Villification is all well and good but if you're not going to tell us what to do, who to vote for, how to behave etc - what's the point? 

And I aplogise in advance for dominating this thread. Please feel free to challenge me and discard


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And where should the middle classes be made throw their political lot in with?



Wherever their interests lie.  That's not to say that, at times, those interests can't fit with those of the working class, but it's the middle cass that needs to fall in line with the working class, not co-opt and divert what should be working class movements.


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## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And where should the middle classes be made throw their political lot in with?


they'll be too busy down the salt mines to care one way or another tbh.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> Wherever their interests lie.  That's not to say that, at times, those interests can't fit with those of the working class, but it's the middle cass that needs to fall in line with the working class, not co-opt and divert what should be working class movements.



That's the one thing I won't miss when I leave your country. The class obssession. It's divisive and (IMHO) prevents a proper alternative to the tory/banker/establishment who run the country. And seemingly, always will.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> That's the one thing I won't miss when I leave your country. The class obssession. It's divisive and (IMHO) prevents a proper alternative to the tory/banker/establishment who run the country. And seemingly, always will.



Wow.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

I have read some very good articles by Brendan in the past. Sometimes his critique of the liberal left is excellent. If Clarkson was a trot he'd be Brendan.


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## dessiato (Jan 14, 2016)

Anyone want some popcorn? I've got a couple of spare deckchairs if any one needs a seat.


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## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> I have read some very good articles by Brendan in the past. Sometimes his critique of the liberal left is excellent. If Clarkson was a trot he'd be Brendan.


O'neil isn't a trot though.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

He was.


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## LDC (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> The class obssession.



It's not an obsession, it's the way capitalist society is organized and it needs to be transcended as part of destroying capitalism.

Unless you mean 'class' in the way that people use it when they're talking about how some people like racing pigeons, watch soaps, and drink ale rather than going to the opera, listening to Radio 4, and drinking champagne?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> If Clarkson was a trot he'd be Brendan.



A trot Clarkson is just about the worst thing I can imagine tbh. And I can imagine Cthulhu.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> Wow.



Indeed. It amazes me when some people repeatedly tell us that race is a construct. I think, yeah, I'll tell that to myself next time someone makes an anti-Irish comment to me, or an anti-Japanese comment to the other half.

If race is a construct; surely class is one, too. And why perpetuate class stereotypes, demonise whole swathes of people? Surely the "left", which is a very broad church, has room from people from all walks of life & they should not be sneered at or denigrated?


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## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

binka said:


> Mentioned briefly on another topic, you should watch this pathetic parade of idiots to get a decent grasp of what mra are about:
> 
> Reggie Yates' Extreme UK, 2. Men at War
> 
> _Reggie meets the angry young British men who think feminism has gone too far - and some of the women who have felt their wrath on an internet tailor-made for anti-feminism._



That programme annoyed me. I don't care if he wants to have a poke at MRA I'd just would have liked him to have been honest about it instead of grinning at the very suggestion before sniggeringly reading their literature.

He protests so strongly and yet the title of the entire series is "Extreme". Like Extremism doesn't have negative connotations.

I also didn't like how he condescendingly drops the opinion more than once that a 18 year old isn't equipped to deliver opinion on MRA without being influenced by the bitterness of bitter online opinions.
When during one of the interviews with him he quite clearly acknowledged his full realization than many of the men commented on MRA were embittered by life events.

He pretended he was approaching the whole thing open minded but the exercise was always going to be him scoffing at these extreme types. It was never going to be a debate about MRA but about personalities and where possible those with the looniest opinions .


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

Very good.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I also didn't like how he condescendingly drops the opinion more than once that a 18 year old isn't equipped to deliver opinion on MRA without being influenced by the bitterness of bitter online opinions.



He didn't. He wanted to understand how someone at only 18 years of old could have such strong opinions - and what was it in his short life that led to these ideas. He never dismissed his opinion because he was only 18.


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## IC3D (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Nope. Because even though ethnicity is not an objective thing, the world generally operates on the assumption that it is.


You could interpret that as radfems objectify white males because it suits them but not the rest of humanity.


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## seventh bullet (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> And where should the middle classes be made throw their political lot in with?



You're middle class and feeling a little offended? Everything isn't about you.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> It's not an obsession, it's the way capitalist society is organized and it needs to be transcended as part of destroying capitalism.
> 
> Unless you mean 'class' in the way that people use it when they're talking about how some people like racing pigeons, watch soaps, and drink ale rather than going to the opera, listening to Radio 4, and drinking champagne?



People should be free to enjoy pigeons and champagne, whatever their status in life. I tend to find people run a mile, or have you down as a nutter, when the destruction of capitalism is suggested. Fine for places such as urban; there's plenty of utopias to dream of but out there - the revolution just isn't going to happen. Not with that kind of language. That said, I'd be happy to be proved wrong & am ready to adapt to the whims of my new overlords, er, comrades.


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## scifisam (Jan 14, 2016)

Why do all these commentators fail to get it? It's easier being a white working class male than a black working class male. It's not that being white makes everything in life wonderfully easy, it's just that it gives you an advantage compared to other ethnicities in the same class as you. Same for disability, etc. It's _one factor_ and that's it.



krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. It amazes me when some people repeatedly tell us that race is a construct. I think, yeah, I'll tell that to myself next time someone makes an anti-Irish comment to me, or an anti-Japanese comment to the other half.
> 
> If race is a construct; surely class is one, too. And why perpetuate class stereotypes, demonise whole swathes of people? Surely the "left", which is a very broad church, has room from people from all walks of life & they should not be sneered at or denigrated?



Whoever has said class isn't a construct? That'd be a weird claim to make. A baby born to a working class family and adopted by an upper class one isn't going to have "wotcha guvnor" as its first words.

Just because something is constructed doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. It amazes me when some people repeatedly tell us that race is a construct. I think, yeah, I'll tell that to myself next time someone makes an anti-Irish comment to me, or an anti-Japanese comment to the other half.
> 
> If race is a construct; surely class is one, too. And why perpetuate class stereotypes, demonise whole swathes of people? Surely the "left", which is a very broad church, has room from people from all walks of life & they should not be sneered at or denigrated?



No, class is determined by material facts i.e. where someone stands in relation to the means of production.  Not like race at all.  It's about recognising a commonality of interests, not demonising others.  I don't personally dislike every business owner, or even blame him for acting in his own interests.  But that doesn't mean that he's not on the other side of the class war.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> You're middle class and feeling a little offended? Everything isn't about you.



Of course not. It's all about the working class. Anybody who says otherwise should be villified and have their golf club membership rescinded.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> No, class is determined by material facts i.e. where someone stands in relation to the means of production.  Not like race at all.  It's about recognising a commonality of interests, not demonise others.  I don't personally dislike every business owner, or even blame him for acting in his own interests.  But that doesn't mean that he's not on the other side of the class war.



I believe the majority of us just want a fair society - no racism, no injustice, no inequalities, no war, no people going without, no poverty, no hatreds. I think (naively, possibly) those wishes transcend "class", "race" etc.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I believe the majority of us just want a fair society - no racism, no injustice, no inequalities, no war, no people going without, no poverty, no hatreds. I think (naively, possibly) those wishes transcend "class", "race" etc.



The majority of us i.e. the working class, do want that; it's prevented by a minority - those who own capital.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I also didn't like how he condescendingly drops the opinion more than once that a 18 year old isn't equipped to deliver opinion on MRA without being influenced by the bitterness of bitter online opinions.



Our local MRA twuntbucket likes to accuse anyone who disagrees with him (ie everyone) of not knowing anything about the real world and spending too much time on the internet.

Ironic really, as only someone with zero experience of anything could look around them and see a world where men are systematically disadvantaged and mistreated.

It's not that I don't listen to MRA types, I've listened to more of them than anyone should ever have to, it's that you hear certain tell-tale phrases and you know for a fact that the person you're talking to is an idiot on whose opinions you need not waste another second of your time. Same with conspiraloons, there are no chemtrail enthusiasts with whom you can have a productive discussion because to be into that shit you must necessarily have turned away from reason, logic and the entire concept of what information and evidence is.

A men's rights activist who is worth talking to is a contradiction in terms.


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## seventh bullet (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> People should be free to enjoy pigeons and champagne, whatever their status in life. I tend to find people run a mile, or have you down as a nutter, when the destruction of capitalism is suggested. Fine for places such as urban; there's plenty of utopias to dream of but out there - the revolution just isn't going to happen. Not with that kind of language. That said, I'd be happy to be proved wrong & am ready to adapt to the whims of my new overlords, er, comrades.



Even if I do have murderous flights of fancy like DotCommunist (and I do want the ruling class to be mercilessly destroyed as people if they resist) I also realise that you have to find commonalities with the rest of humanity before things can go Full Stalin.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> The majority of us i.e. the working class, do want that; it's prevented by a minority - those who own capital.



I meant urban, when I said "the majority of us". I have no idea what "class", "race", religion, gender, sexuality posters are. I just believe that, in broad terms, "we" are against the things I listed above.


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## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> He didn't. He wanted to understand how someone at only 18 years of old could have such strong opinions - and what was it in his short life that led to these ideas. He never dismissed his opinion because he was only 18.



He did. Twice. I'll fire it back up on my Sky recording and quote his exact words of summation to you.

"Josh is a really impressive speaker but... I can't help  worrying that he's building opinions about how women behave based on other men's bad experiences that he's found online."

Complete undermining Josh's previous statement that being young and without some horrible catalyst enables him to approach topics subjectively and think the issues through.

Oh and i forgot to mention Reggies little video invite to that organisation to speak to him, like he didn't know beforehand that they were going to cuss him out and give him great material to mock to camera.
The dickheads fell for it.


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## seventh bullet (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Of course not. It's all about the working class. Anybody who says otherwise should be villified and have their golf club membership rescinded.



Do you want a tissue, crybaby? 

Yes, it is about the working class, and it includes even you, too.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I meant urban, when I said "the majority of us". I have no idea what "class", "race", religion, gender, sexuality posters are. I just believe that, in broad terms, "we" are against the things I listed above.



Yes, the majority of people here are against racism, sexism etc.  But that's neither here nor there.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Even if I do have murderous flights of fancy like DotCommunist (and I do want the ruling class to be mercilessly destroyed as people if they resist) I also realise that you have to find commonalities with the rest of humanity before things can go Full Stalin.



As a pacifist; I cannot advocate or rejoice in the deaths of anybody. I realise this stance has isolated me here but I continue to hold it. That said, I am for change and believe that the status quo must be challenged, utterly. But it must be done inclusively. We must be together, the dustbinman and the doctor, the janitor and the journalist. Hand in hand, petty differences brushed aside.

Until the post revolution revolution, natch


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> I believe the majority of us just want a fair society - no racism, no injustice, no inequalities, no war, no people going without, no poverty, no hatreds. I think (naively, possibly) those wishes transcend "class", "race" etc.



Most of those wishes don't transcend class and one of them is meaningless; no hatreds indeed. 

Rather they need the active ending of class relationships; relationships whereby one group of people live off the work of another group, while employing a third group to help those working reproduce and keep them in line.

The only group in whose material interest it is to end those relationships are those doing the work, therefore it makes sense that they should take the lead in changing the situation.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

seventh bullet said:


> Do you want a tissue, crybaby?
> 
> Yes, it is about the working class, and it includes even you, too.



Ah, name calling. Nice one.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> I'd be happy if they didn't try to take over 'the left'.



And what class do you consider yourself to be?


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Complete undermining Josh's previous statement that being young and without some horrible catalyst enables him to approach topics subjectively and think the issues through.



It does nothing of the sort and I am not sure how you interpreted it that way. Never mind it does not really matter what you took from it. 

Personally I'd rather side with the man who isn't subject to racial abuse and threats and you would rather side with those who make such remarks. No odds to me.


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> As a pacifist; I cannot advocate or rejoice in the deaths of anybody. I realise this stance has isolated me here but I continue to hold it. That said, I am for change and believe that the status quo must be challenged, utterly. But it must be done inclusively. We must be together, the dustbinman and the doctor, the janitor and the journalist. Hand in hand, petty differences brushed aside.
> 
> Until the post revolution revolution, natch



Haw can it be done 'inclusively' when there's a conflict of interests at the very heart of it?


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## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And what class do you consider yourself to be?



Working class


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## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

scifisam said:


> Why do all these commentators fail to get it? It's easier being a white working class male than a black working class male. It's not that being white makes everything in life wonderfully easy, it's just that it gives you an advantage compared to other ethnicities in the same class as you. Same for disability, etc. It's _one factor_ and that's it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills. 
A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.

Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> Haw can it be done 'inclusively' when there's a conflict of interests at the very heart of it?



Better put a bullet through my middle class head, then. Seeing as how you balk at the idea of inclusiveness.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. It amazes me when some people repeatedly tell us that race is a construct. I think, yeah, I'll tell that to myself next time someone makes an anti-Irish comment to me, or an anti-Japanese comment to the other half.
> 
> If race is a construct; surely class is one, too. And why perpetuate class stereotypes, demonise whole swathes of people? Surely the "left", which is a very broad church, has room from people from all walks of life & they should not be sneered at or denigrated?



Class is an economic reality.


----------



## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Better put a bullet through my middle class head, then. Seeing as how you balk at the idea of inclusiveness.



I don't 'balk' at the idea of inclusiveness; I see it as an oxymoron, when people's interests are diametrically opposed.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> It does nothing of the sort and I am not sure how you interpreted it that way. Never mind it does not really matter what you took from it.
> 
> Personally I'd rather side with the man who isn't subject to racial abuse and threats and you would rather side with those who make such remarks. No odds to me.



I'm not siding with either side. I'm criticizing the journalism.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 14, 2016)

Athos said:


> Working class



Like everyone else on the left then.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills.
> A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.
> 
> Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.



Fucking hell. On so many levels...


----------



## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Like everyone else on the left then.



Fair point.  Anyone can - and many do - claim that.  Although I think the move towards identity politics, championed by the likes of Laurie Penny, is a tacit acknowledgement that those fictions are becoming increasingly unsustainable in respect of a larger and larger proportion of those who position themselevs at the forefront of 'the left.'


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Better put a bullet through my middle class head, then. Seeing as how you balk at the idea of inclusiveness.



I don't balk at the idea of inclusiveness when it is about 'pigeons and champagne'. However it is rather different when it comes to say a choice between making a profit and supplying life or death health care.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills.
> A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.
> 
> Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.



After Hitler's rise to power did Jews suddenly get really bad at networking and that's why the Holocaust happened?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it.


naturally cunning eh.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

Honestly I've never heard this networking interpretation before, it's interesting in a horrific post-modern corporate HR kind of way.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> After Hitler's rise to power did Jews suddenly get really bad at networking and that's why the Holocaust happened?



Obviously. So it's their own fault, really.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

J Ed said:


> After Hitler's rise to power did Jews suddenly get really bad at networking and that's why the Holocaust happened?



Don't be silly; the Nazis were just uber-networkers.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> He was.


So was Eric Pickles. Neither could be described as a trot now.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

Black people in the Southern US, why did you go on all those marches and sit-ins getting shot at and the like when you just needed to DM your white bezzies on twitter a pic of a cute kitten?!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills.
> A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.
> 
> Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.



Old people are great at networking. They can't work the internet but they still all know each other. They're the most networked bunch of cunts going. They still never achieve fuck all, apart from repeatedly voting in tory governments whose toxic legacies they won't even live to see.

e2a: Also your post is racist and even if it wasn't it would still be bullshit.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills.
> A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.
> 
> Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.



The more times I read this the more stupid and offensive it gets. Anyone being exploited or oppressed, stop whinging and get networking; and don't forget, the systems that you might think are part of the problem, are actually your friends...if only you'd embrace them.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

I seem to remember black people in the US embarking on a big networking project called the Black Panther Party a while back.

J Edgar Hoover and his FBI chums outfoxed them in a fair and even-handed networking competition, so the panthers admitted defeat and went home without any of them getting assasinated or thrown in jail or anything. At least I think that's what happened.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> naturally cunning eh.


Its just networking not magic.

Some groups use it and others don't. The ones that do seem overall to do better than those that don't.


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

oh my god.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I seem to remember black people in the US embarking on a big networking project called the Black Panther Party a while back.
> 
> J Edgar Hoover and his FBI chums outfoxed them in a fair and even-handed networking competition, so the panthers admitted defeat and went home without any of them getting assasinated or thrown in jail or anything. At least I think that's what happened.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> I seem to remember black people in the US embarking on a big networking project called the Black Panther Party a while back.
> 
> J Edgar Hoover and his FBI chums outfoxed them in a fair and even-handed networking competition, so the panthers admitted defeat and went home without any of them getting assasinated or thrown in jail or anything. At least I think that's what happened.



Are you claiming that the Black Panthers achieved nothing?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Are you claiming that the Black Panthers achieved nothing?



No, I'm claiming that you're an idiot.


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2016)

a nailed on, gold plated fucking tool.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

It is almost as if I deliberately made a facetious remark. An internet first.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The more times I read this the more stupid and offensive it gets. Anyone being exploited or oppressed, stop whinging and get networking; and don't forget, the systems that you might think are part of the problem, are actually your friends...if only you'd embrace them.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



If you have screwdriver and they have a power tool then yes get a power tool as well rather than bitch and moan that power tools are evil.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, I'm claiming that you're an idiot.





SpookyFrank said:


> No, I'm claiming that you're an idiot.


He said he was criticising Yates' journalism and not defending MRAs. Now I am not so sure.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, I'm claiming that you're an idiot.



But they did achieve something yes? Admit it and you confirm that even though they might have been out networked at least they achieved more than if they hadn't networked at all.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> He said he was criticising Yates' journalism and not defending MRAs. Now I am not so sure.



That stuff he posted about networking would be worthy of ridicule in any context.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> But they did achieve something yes? Admit it and you confirm that even though they might have been out networked at least they achieved more than if they hadn't networked at all.



No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

What are your thoughts on social currency?

@ gromit


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> But they did achieve something yes? Admit it and you confirm that even though they might have been out networked at least they achieved more than if they hadn't networked at all.



My point is that they were a very effective network, destroyed by the malicious actions of the state. So your argument that every group in society ends up where they ought to be according to their networking skills or lack of looks a bit hollow. Network all you like, but if the powers that be come for you then it's all for shit and no intrinsic talent that you or those around you posess will make any fucking difference.

This is what we call oppression. It is not a function of whether or not you can maintain an up-to-date list of everyone's email addresses.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 14, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> the systems that you might think are part of the problem, are actually your friends...if only you'd embrace them.



...isn't that very often true though..for _individuals _....sort of the crux of the differences between left and right....


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 14, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> My point is that they were a very effective network, destroyed by the malicious actions of the state. So your argument that every group in society ends up where they ought to be according to their networking skills or lack of looks a bit hollow. Network all you like, but if the powers that be come for you then it's all for shit and no intrinsic talent that you or those around you posess will make any fucking difference.
> 
> This is what we call oppression. It is not a function of whether or not you can maintain an up-to-date list of everyone's email addresses.


even if you are within the law its their law and they'll change it to suit. In gromits Lawnmower Man terms thats a network that we don't have administrator privileges on.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> What are your thoughts on social currency?
> 
> @ gromit



It can be beneficial to individuals and groups if used effectively.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> It can be beneficial to individuals and groups if used effectively.



That is why it exists but why does it exist?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> even if you are within the law its their law and they'll change it to suit. In gromits Lawnmower Man terms thats a network that we don't have administrator privileges on.



Social networking has been acknowledged in having a strong part in putting Obama in the president's seat. He's now in a position to change laws.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> That is why it exists but why does it exist?



For the same reasons communities came into existence. The reasons why hunter gatherers formed villages and shared information on how to farm and later irrigate.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

You're making my brain hurt.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 14, 2016)

There's little more annoying than a moron who's convinced he's a genius.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 14, 2016)

scifisam said:


> There's little more annoying than a moron who's convinced he's a genius.



If you knew how to network better you wouldn't think like that..


----------



## The Boy (Jan 14, 2016)

Oh Gromit


----------



## bimble (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> If you have screwdriver and they have a power tool then yes get a power tool as well rather than bitch and moan that power tools are evil.




Brilliant. Now there's an idea. Stop whinging and go to the power tool shop.


----------



## bimble (Jan 14, 2016)

bimble said:


> Brilliant. Now there's an idea. Stop whinging and go to the power tool shop.


Gromit, i was being sarcastic in my enthusiasm there ..  sorry.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> You're making my brain hurt.


That's why your brain hurts but why does your brain hurt?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

bimble said:


> Gromit, i was being sarcastic in my enthusiasm there ..  sorry.


But power tools are cool. Especially if you have a shed.


----------



## Athos (Jan 14, 2016)

scifisam said:


> There's little more annoying than a moron who's convinced he's a genius.


He has a titanic intellect. In a world full of icebergs.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 14, 2016)

I can feel parts of my brain dying each time I read a post. As if the cells just give up the will to live.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 14, 2016)

Some fuckwits try to claim all white men are privaleged. Which is bollocks although not being stopped every five minutes to be searched by the police is nice


----------



## toggle (Jan 14, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Some fuckwits try to claim all white men are privaleged. Which is bollocks although not being stopped every five minutes to be searched by the police is nice



you're falling into the same misunderstandings as the article in the op. 

at least in your case, it's misunderstanding though, not deliberate manipulation


----------



## LDC (Jan 14, 2016)

I only nipped out for an hour, wtf has happened on this thread?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I only nipped out for an hour, wtf has happened on this thread?



It started badly, then got worse.


----------



## LDC (Jan 14, 2016)

Misunderstandings around class and its place in radical politics (and society) are rife. And IMO not helped by some on the left who insist on comic class stereotypes as much as the worst Tory, and it's all exacerbated dramatically in the last few years by the ridiculous move to '-ism' it and make it just one in a long list of oppressions.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> It started badly, then got worse.



As if it was ever headed anywhere else?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> As if it was ever headed anywhere else?



Given how badly it started its amazing it could get worse.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Given how badly it started its amazing it could get worse.


I'll be disappointed in Urban if it doesn't get worserer still.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 14, 2016)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I only nipped out for an hour, wtf has happened on this thread?



I think Gromit felt the OP was on his turf so he had to show him how to do it properly.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Going back to Reggie Yates.

in the interests of balance is he going to do a Extreme UK show about Feminist Loonspuds.
Or are we going to pretend that only the male side has Loonspuds?

For example the feminists who believe ALL penis in vagina sex is rape, unnecessary for reproduction and therefore unnatural.
PIV is always rape, ok?

Has there ever been a high profile BBC programme that would ever dare to do anything like Reggie did on MRA but on Feminism?
I very much doubt it.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 14, 2016)




----------



## toggle (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Going back to Reggie Yates.
> 
> in the interests of balance is he going to do a Extreme UK show about Feminist Loonspuds.
> Or are we going to pretend that only the male side has Loonspuds?
> ...



i don't think there's any lack of presentation of some of the more extremist views that have attached to feminism- or the accompanying accusations that those views are that of all feminists.


----------



## emanymton (Jan 14, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Some fuckwits try to claim all white men are privaleged. Which is bollocks although not being stopped every five minutes to be searched by the police is nice


You basically make this point yourself but It's relative mate, a white man working as a cleaner is privaleged compared to black man or white women also working as a cleaner.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Going back to Reggie Yates.
> 
> in the interests of balance is he going to do a Extreme UK show about Feminist Loonspuds.
> .


That's not how balance works. HTH.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> If you have screwdriver and they have a power tool then yes get a power tool as well rather than bitch and moan that power tools are evil.



"Stop bitching about rape, go out and do some raping and even the score."

"Think it's unfair that they've got slaves? Get some slaves yourself and even the score."

"You're just jealous of the rich."


----------



## Gromit (Jan 14, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> "Stop bitching about rape, go out and do some raping and even the score."
> 
> "Think it's unfair that they've got slaves? Get some slaves yourself and even the score."
> 
> "You're just jealous of the rich."



Comparing networking to rape or slavery is trivializing very serious crimes. Shame on you. I'm being 100% serious on this point.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Jan 14, 2016)

There is something to be said about the difficulties facing young white men from working class backgrounds  but fuck me, Brendan O'Neil is not the one to be saying it. 

There was actually a decent piece on this (for a change) in the guardian by an LSE sociologist recently:
Lazy, drunken, promiscuous, rude ... why the UK loves to hate young white men

Had to laugh when the results of that yougov survey were reported in the press. All the major right-wing rags  ran with it the same way O'fuckface did: hand-ringing lefties don't care about 'own kind' (because let's face it - that's the creepy insinuation). Thing is, every other day of the week they're the ones that do the most to vilify the young and disenfranchised.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Comparing networking to rape or slavery is trivializing very serious crimes. Shame on you. I'm being 100% serious on this point.



You're conflating very real and serious problems to 'networking' without recognising (willfully, no doubt) the effect those very real problems have on the ability of people to network in the first place.

Fucking shame on you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> That's why your brain hurts but why does your brain hurt?



Because everyone enjoys kicking your teeth.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> the effect those very real problems have on the ability of people to network in the first place.


Nothing a length of CAT5E can't fix!


----------



## kittyP (Jan 14, 2016)

*Deletes post*
Ah forget it.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

Gromit said:


> If you have screwdriver and they have a power tool then yes get a power tool as well rather than bitch and moan that power tools are evil.



Nobody has mentioned evil, but with your useless analogy you have managed to add another level of stupid...well done.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 14, 2016)

hot air baboon said:


> ...isn't that very often true though..*for *_*individuals* _....sort of the crux of the differences between left and right....



'Very often'...really; or do you mean sometimes. And of course Gromit is referring to groups.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 14, 2016)

i can feel an outbreak of



coming on


----------



## Nylock (Jan 15, 2016)

J Ed said:


> No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling








Au contraire Rodney, au _contraire_....


----------



## xenon (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> If you have screwdriver and they have a power tool then yes get a power tool as well rather than bitch and moan that power tools are evil.



 Seriously stop this nonsense you just make yourself look like a total prick. It's not devils advocate it's not   Iconoclastic   Is just simplistic  useless inaccurate bollocks.


----------



## toggle (Jan 15, 2016)

xenon said:


> Seriously stop this nonsense you just make yourself look like a total prick. It's not devils advocate it's not   Iconoclastic   Is just simplistic  useless inaccurate bollocks.



considering thre problem for half the population appears to be that the tool we are missing is a penis, i really didn't want to go into the large variety of obvious replies to that. 

(that's if he doesn't have me on ignore still)


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2016)

I think we can all agree the real tool here.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I hate to break it to feminists, but 'white male privilege' is a myth - Spectator Blogs
> I'm sure some would rant at me for posting this. I suppose I have black male privilege!
> I don't agree with everything O'Neill says, but he's good to start a talking point. Here though, I hope he's silenced one.


Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 15, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.


That's a new one. Never heard it before.


----------



## scifisam (Jan 15, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> Even a stopped clock tells the right time twice a day.



Not this time though.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 15, 2016)

scifisam said:


> Not this time though.


More like a broken clock that's been smashed with a hammer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

nino_savatte said:


> More like a broken clock that's been smashed with a hammer.


and then stomped on by an elephant.


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Then set on fire.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

((clock))


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

i didn't realise we had among us a poster who makes Diamond look witty, charming, intelligent and well-read by comparison.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

So a couple of people on this thread have stated that the OP and the author are misrepresenting what is meant by WMP. That is doesn't refer to all white males.  

Out of interest could people please state what percentage of the white male population they think it covers?

The majority like 95%? 
A minority like 5%?

Also would be curious as to how you'll justify these ratios. 
Have you just picked them out of the air or is there some statistical evidence to back up your perception?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I hate to break it to feminists, but 'white male privilege' is a myth - Spectator Blogs
> I'm sure some would rant at me for posting this. I suppose I have black male privilege!
> I don't agree with everything O'Neill says, but he's good to start a talking point. Here though, I hope he's silenced one.



It's standard contrarian O'Neill fare (which is itself standard ex-LMer fare)  - find a subject there's a consensus on, and then critique it poorly, but with just enough bite to get the "political correctness has gone mad" brigade aboard. He starts his "analysis" referring to "white male privilege", then focuses his critique on the treatment of a minority of white males. It's intellectually incoherent.

BTW, as a male - black, white, yellow or brown, you have male privilege. Our world operates under patriarchy, and we as males benefit from that. O'Neill's selective trip among employment and pay statistics for certain groups of women (not, as he alludes, women as a whole) doesn't change that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Christ, I really hate The Spectator



I don't.
I just hate most of the "journalists" (in scare quotes because most of them are actually polemicists)they employ.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Athos said:


> He's right about the left being colonised by the middle class, who, having no business with class struggle, focus on identity politics, often in ways that harm the working class (at whom they sneer).  But, whilst some of the stats he cites might be true (I'd have to check them), the fact that the overwhelming majority of positions of power in politics, commerce, religion, popular culture etc. are held by white men demonstrates that the central plank of his argument in this article is simply wrong.



The left, both parliamentary and extra-parliamentary, has *always* been colonised by the middle classes. "Being" makes it sound like something only just happening. There's always been an element of paternalist top-down middle class "steering" of leftism, even in the Trottist groupuscules.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> That's the one thing I won't miss when I leave your country. The class obssession. It's divisive and (IMHO) prevents a proper alternative to the tory/banker/establishment who run the country. And seemingly, always will.



Class isn't an obsession, it's a fact of life in a society where your class is still the most powerful determinant of your "place in life", regardless of any education or talent you have. This is not a meritocracy we're living in, and it never will be while the classes that structurally benefit the most - the middle and upper class - hold power.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So a couple of people on this thread have stated that the OP and the author are misrepresenting what is meant by WMP. That is doesn't refer to all white males.
> 
> Out of interest could people please state what percentage of the white male population they think it covers?
> 
> ...



You're also misunderstanding/misrepresenting what is meant by WMP.
All it means is that all other things being equal a white male is privileged over a black male, or a white female, or a white trans-person etc... it doesn't lend itself to percentages like you are asking for as it does not express privilege as an absolute value, only as a relative value.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I've come to believe that people the reall reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills.
> A certain class of white men are very good at networking and gain advantage through it. The jewish community are very good at networking and gaining advantage of it. The young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result. Certain BME representatives are very good at networking and use their BME groups to do very well out of it.
> 
> Its easier to cast blame that others have tilted the system in their own favour than working out how to tilt systems in your own favour.



Fuck us perfidious fucking Yids with our networking skills and advantage-taking!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> naturally cunning eh.



Sly, even.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> "Stop bitching about rape, go out and do some raping and even the score."
> 
> "Think it's unfair that they've got slaves? Get some slaves yourself and even the score."
> 
> "You're just jealous of the rich."



You forgot "it's the politics of envy".


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck us perfidious fucking Yids with our networking skills and advantage-taking!



But surely the best bit of Gromit's post was the bit about how 'young black street hoods etc. are shit at networking and disadvantage themselves as a result". I recently finished that book Among the hoods btw, a really good lesson in how 'networking' works when nothing else does.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> black, white, yellow or brown



You're definitely white then. Some white people have a real problem with us saying we're black, and either want clarity or want to go on and on about how equal we all are with stupid things like this.
If I hadn't written that I was black, you wouldn't have said anything like this. I wish you hadn't. 
The other one is when white people describe a load of colours and talk about different shades, rather than just letting us self-define - or hope for a day when we don't even have to do that. 
I object to the idea of white privilege. I also object to its equivalents.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I object to the idea of white privilege. I also object to its equivalents.


Do you mean you object to the idea of it (white privilege) as in you disagree with the premise that it actually exists?


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> Do you mean you object to the idea of it (white privilege) as in you disagree with the premise that it actually exists?


It's a terrible lens to view race that people use to try to shut some people up.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It's a terrible lens to view race that people use to try to shut some people up.



But is that a bit like when men feel the need to point out that not all men are patriarchy-wielding potential- rapist bastards?  
Because of course they're not, some of my best friends are men etc . 
But that doesn't change the fact that we live in a world where women in the same job / same qualifications get paid (on average) significantly less than men, or that people with obviously black names on their CVs are are far less likely to even get called for an interview etc etc.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> I object to the idea of white privilege. I also object to its equivalents.



So as a black person, you don't think that white people (discounting other intersections for a moment) are generally more privileged within society? (e.g.  they don't have to deal with the same structural and institutional racism, are not stopped and searched anywhere as much, etc?)


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So as a black person, you don't think that white people (discounting other intersections for a moment) are generally more privileged within society? (e.g.  they don't have to deal with the same structural and institutional racism, are not stopped and searched anywhere as much, etc?)



"White male privilege" is from separatists desperate to shut people up and replace this hierarchy, which has disclaimers and qualifiers all over it so is useless as an analysis (including in your post), with an alternative hierarchy. 

I don't want to shut people up.

Also: the white working class male is the worst off (insert all sorts of qualifiers and disclaimers here). 
See: useless lens.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck us perfidious fucking Yids with our networking skills and advantage-taking!


I'm not criticising the Jewish community though. They've gotten it right.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> "White male privilege" is from separatists desperate to shut people up and replace this hierarchy, which has disclaimers and qualifiers all over it so is useless as an analysis (including in your post), with an alternative hierarchy.


What?!


----------



## The Boy (Jan 15, 2016)

Oh, Gromit .


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not criticising the Jewish community though. They've gotten it right.


That's excellent. I met a loon at Christmas, who'd never seen a real live jew before I showed up at her house. She was astounded by the idea that not only was I one .. but my parents were too. I mean.. who'd have thunk it.   To show how much not an antisemite she was she said that she has a lot of respect for how jews do business, how good they are at it, compared to "English people". It was a good night.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> So as a black person, you don't think that white people (discounting other intersections for a moment) are generally more privileged within society? (e.g.  they don't have to deal with the same structural and institutional racism, are not stopped and searched anywhere as much, etc?)


Is that a privilege though?
Surely society should aspire to the standard where no one is prejudiced against. 
I see privilege more along the lines of people being given luxuries others don't without necessarily earning them. 
Oxford and Cambridge degrees being treated as better by prestige employers than the exact same degree from another university etc.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> That's excellent. I met a loon at Christmas, who'd never seen a real live jew before I showed up at her house. She was astounded by the idea that not only was I one .. but my parents were too. I mean.. who'd have thunk it.   To show how much not an antisemite she was she said that she has a lot of respect for how jews do business, how good they are at it, compared to "English people". It was a good night. She served pork with black pudding.


So she didn't know that Jewishness is passed down through the mother?

Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> "Stop bitching about rape, go out and do some raping and even the score."
> 
> "Think it's unfair that they've got slaves? Get some slaves yourself and even the score."
> 
> "You're just jealous of the rich."



So going back to this...

I should extrapolate from this that you are against women's networks then?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So she didn't know that Jewishness is passed down through the mother?
> 
> *Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?*



No I don't think you should.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So she didn't know that Jewishness is passed down through the mother?
> 
> Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?


did they show you the secret book as well? the Protocols?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> No I don't think you should.
> 
> Louis MacNeice


oh but I do


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The left, both parliamentary and extra-parliamentary, has *always* been colonised by the middle classes. "Being" makes it sound like something only just happening. There's always been an element of paternalist top-down middle class "steering" of leftism, even in the Trottist groupuscules.



I'm not sure that the post implies it is a modern phenomenon. I agree that it's not.  Although ot appears to be a growing one.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So a couple of people on this thread have stated that the OP and the author are misrepresenting what is meant by WMP. That is doesn't refer to all white males.
> 
> Out of interest could people please state what percentage of the white male population they think it covers?
> 
> ...



You're missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Is that a privilege though?
> Surely society should aspire to the standard where no one is prejudiced against.
> I see privilege more along the lines of people being given luxuries others don't without necessarily earning them.
> Oxford and Cambridge degrees being treated as better by prestige employers than the exact same degree from another university etc.



You don't get to decide what counts as privilege; you are not humpty dumpty.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.



No I think Gromit is doing it because they are simultaneously certain and ignorant...not the greatest combination.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> You don't get to decide what counts as privilege; you are not humpty dumpty.
> 
> Louis MacNeice


So are you disagreeing that not being stopped all the time simply because you are black shouldn't be considered a privalige?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> A trot Clarkson is just about the worst thing I can imagine tbh. And I can imagine Cthulhu.


What we need is a Clarkson  of the left


----------



## 8den (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not criticising the Jewish community though. They've gotten it right.



Oh christ Gromit.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So are you disagreeing that not being stopped all the time simply because you are black shouldn't be considered a privalige?



Have another go at that without the double negatives.

Louis MacNeice

p.s. It doesn't inspire confidence when you misspell a word from the thread title.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Have another go at that without the double negatives.
> 
> Louis MacNeice
> 
> p.s. It doesn't inspire confidence when you misspell a word from the thread title.


the only confidence inspired by Gromit is the confidence man.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Privilege is a really hard word to spell for some reason or maybe that's just me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> Privilege is a really hard word to spell for some reason or maybe that's just me.


not as hard, for most people, as separate, accommodation or onomatopoeia


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

appologize is hard too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> appologize is hard too.


use "say sorry" instead of "apologise".


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Have another go at that without the double negatives.
> 
> Louis MacNeice
> 
> p.s. It doesn't inspire confidence when you misspell a word from the thread title.


Mobile phone typing. I'll head off to the dyslexia thread and out you as another spelling shamer for emanymton to bitch about.

The double negatives work but i'll retype it if you can't follow it.

I said that not being searched simply because you are black shouldn't be considered a privilege.

I'm asking are you disagreeing with that statement? Because you seemed to be by contradicting my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I said that not being searched simply because you are black shouldn't be considered a privilege.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Mobile phone typing. I'll head off to the dyslexia thread and out you as another spelling shamer for emanymton to bitch about.
> 
> The double negatives work but i'll retype it if you can't follow it.
> 
> ...


put simply

a black man has got 20 times (made up stat, prob higher) more chance of getting pulled than you
he gets pulled 20 times, you get pulled once, who is more privileged in this example?


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?


I'll give you that Gromit - this happens, a lot. See for instance: How much of shiny modern Israel (concert halls, tech businesses, universities etc) are paid for by rich American jews, who have chosen to do that with their money instead of something else somewhere else. 
 But to say that if everyone in the world just networked harder they'd all be ok, is not just stupid it's really rude.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.



No i think you are missing my point. You are stating such things are not quantitative.
I feel non quantitative terms like this are evil. The same sort of hate tool thats been used by prejudice people for decades. Oh we don't mean the him, him or him, they're some of the good ones, we mean the other ones, the ones we don't like. Tarring with one brush a group as the phrase is non specific whilst claiming but no we were being specific.


----------



## LDC (Jan 15, 2016)

Do think there's an unfortunate (and not very important) issue around the semantics of the word 'privilege' tho' which I think some people get a bit caught up on. It's more that some people are disadvantaged from the the average rather than the other way round if that makes sense?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?



Not like those Irish. Too busy feuding to make anything of themselves.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> use "say sorry" instead of "apologise".


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 15, 2016)

What?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> So she didn't know that Jewishness is passed down through the mother?
> 
> Perhaps I should mention that I worked in a Jewish business which is how I saw from the inside how the community helps each other?


oh dear oh dear


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'll give you that Gromit - this happens, a lot. See for instance: How much of shiny modern Israel (concert halls, tech businesses, universities etc) are paid for by rich American jews, who have chosen to do that with their money instead of something else somewhere else.
> But to say that if everyone in the world just networked harder they'd all be ok, is not just stupid it's really rude.



I never claimed it was a magic wand all by itself. I am saying that its a very useful tool to improve situations.
Women's networks haven't vanished years of inequality but they have played a part in improving the numbers of women in top jobs and pay equality.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I never claimed it was a magic wand all by itself. I am saying that its a very useful tool to improve situations.
> Women's networks haven't vanished years of inequality but they have played a part in improving the numbers of women in top jobs and pay equality.


Yes, clever women, we got together and networked and tried really hard. Unlike those feckless..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> You're definitely white then. Some white people have a real problem with us saying we're black, and either want clarity or want to go on and on about how equal we all are with stupid things like this.



Yes, I'm white. Those posters who know my personal and political history will probably be chuckling at your nested assumptions about what extends from that whiteness, though.



> If I hadn't written that I was black, you wouldn't have said anything like this. I wish you hadn't.



I would have said it regardless of you mentioning your colour or not, because colour isn't the over-riding social factor with regard to the OP, relative class position is. Class cuts across all other social factors, be that ethnicity, culture, sexuality, gender or whatever.



> The other one is when white people describe a load of colours and talk about different shades, rather than just letting us self-define - or hope for a day when we don't even have to do that.
> I object to the idea of white privilege. I also object to its equivalents.



Here's the thing - this isn't about *you* or anyone else as individual nexuses of intersectional components, it's about the cultural and social effects that the article you mention in the OP is attempting to argue. I don't give a tuppenny fuck whether you as an individual object to the idea of white [male] privilege. I give a fuck whether you can elucidate a decent argument to either support or negate the article you cited. So far you've done nothing more constructive than engage in name-calling and a bit of identity politics in which you've attempted to establish that your on a higher rung on some hierarchy of oppression than I am.

Try harder.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not criticising the Jewish community though. They've gotten it right.



it doesn't matter whether or not your intent was to "criticise the Jewish community" or not. What matters is that your post perpetuated an old, well-worn and despicable stereotype of Jewry, hence all the facepalming.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

ddraig said:


> put simply
> 
> a black man has got 20 times (made up stat, prob higher) more chance of getting pulled than you
> he gets pulled 20 times, you get pulled once, who is more privileged in this example?



Privilege definition:
an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
Healthcare should be a right, not a privilege.
Senior management enjoy certain privileges, such as company cars and health insurance.

What advantage do i gain from only being stopped once?
I have less negative but i haven't gained any positive, its still a negative being stopped the once and not being stopped at all makes me no better off than i was previously. I don't gain extra money or magically gain extra time. I just don't lose as much.
People need to stop looking at things as a race to the bottom.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, clever women, we got together and networked and tried really hard. Unlike those feckless..



...young white males?


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> ...young white males?


((Gromit.))


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> did they show you the secret book as well? the Protocols?



My copy has been signed by all the Prime Ministers and Presidents of the state of Israel.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> My copy has been signed by all the Prime Ministers and Presidents of the state of Israel.


Mine's a first edition.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> ((Gromit.))



I'm not a young white male btw.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a young white male btw.


I am surprised. I thought that was the best way of understanding your posts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a young white male btw.


you make what you are plainer with every post, it's a bit like watching a car crash in slow motion only it goes on and on and on as more hideous things are revealed by the crumpling metal


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Mobile phone typing. I'll head off to the dyslexia thread and out you as another spelling shamer for emanymton to bitch about.
> 
> The double negatives work but i'll retype it if you can't follow it.
> 
> ...



Relative to being searched it is a privilege; in the context of the article and the debate over privilege more generally, it is relative. 

This is not something you get to decide but something that has been arrived at after a great deal of time and effort expended by others. As I said you are not Humpty Dumpty.  

The spelling thing has nothing to do with dyslexia, but everything to do with your attention to detail, indeed your seriousness, in engaging with the thread.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yes, clever women, we got together and networked and tried really hard. Unlike those feckless..



It's a good job Thatcher was part of that women's network or she'd never have got where she did and we'd all be fucked.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> it doesn't matter whether or not your intent was to "criticise the Jewish community" or not. What matters is that your post perpetuated an old, well-worn and despicable stereotype of Jewry, hence all the facepalming.



Why is it despicable?

Would it have helped if i'd sited the Indian community instead? Doesn't coming with the same baggage of persecution for what i see as enviable community spirit.
They do a lot of the same but thats because Islam doesn't allow them to borrow money which has led to a culture of community gifting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Why is it despicable?
> 
> Would it have helped if i'd sited the Indian community instead? Doesn't coming with the same baggage of persecution for what i see as enviable community spirit.
> They do a lot of the same but thats because Islam doesn't allow them to borrow money which has led to a culture of community gifting.


islam doesn't allow the charging of interest, which as any dwyer will tell you, is a completely different thing.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)




----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Why is it despicable?
> 
> Would it have helped if i'd sited the Indian community instead? Doesn't coming with the same baggage of persecution for what i see as enviable community spirit.
> They do a lot of the same but thats because Islam doesn't allow them to borrow money which has led to a culture of community gifting.


India being near 80% hindu


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Athos said:


> I'm not sure that the post implies it is a modern phenomenon. I agree that it's not.  Although ot appears to be a growing one.



I'd agree that at some levels there's a growing prevalence - more councillors tend to be a) not "born and bred" in the area in which the ward they represent is situated, and b) are more often members of the professions than they were 20 years ago. That may, in some areas, especially southern urban ones, be partly because of shifting residential demographics, though.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Bin man is a pretty well paid job from my understanding.
> 
> I'd rather be a bin man than a cleaner or McJob worker.



Refuse collector starting salary is about £15,000 per year; not very well paid at all. Or did you mean that relative to a cleaner it's well paid; that relative to a cleaner a 'bin man' is financially privileged? Is that what you meant?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's a good job Thatcher was part of that women's network or she'd never have got where she did and we'd all be fucked.



Good irony as you do realise that she hindered equality more than any other Primeminster. There is conspicuous absence of equality legislation during her reign.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Privilege definition:
> an advantage that only one person or group of people has, usually because of their position or because they are rich:
> Healthcare should be a right, not a privilege.
> Senior management enjoy certain privileges, such as company cars and health insurance.
> ...


so you don't mind being stopped illegally then? you don't think it makes you like a criminal when done nothing wrong? you don't think being stopped might hold you up and make you late for work or a meeting which makes you money?
the fucking advantage you gain is not being called into question because of the colour of your skin and perceived standing in society, for fucks sake
is it fair the black man is stopped 20 times more than you? 

who are most senior management positions filled by? why is that?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

ddraig said:


> put simply
> 
> a black man has got 20 times (made up stat, prob higher) more chance of getting pulled than you
> he gets pulled 20 times, you get pulled once, who is more privileged in this example?



Back in the '70s, when I was SUSsed about a dozen times in 3 years, the ratio in working class areas of south-west London was 5:1 my black mates would be stopped about 5 times as often as I was. In middle class/"posh" areas that went up to about 11:1.
The 20:1 stat is roughly accurate for London in the '00s,and gets justified through reference to "terrorism", but the motivation is still the same - a mostly white police service exerting differential force across different components of society.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> *I never claimed it was a magic wand all by itself.* I am saying that its a very useful tool to improve situations.
> Women's networks haven't vanished years of inequality but they have played a part in improving the numbers of women in top jobs and pay equality.



Gromit wrote earlier: 'I've come to believe that people *the real reason certain groups do better than others isn't down to prejudice but due to networking skills*.'

The real reason, definitive and singular; if you didn't mean it then don't write it. Alternatively do everybody else the courtesy of thinking a lot harder before you post.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## emanymton (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Mobile phone typing. I'll head off to the dyslexia thread and out you as another spelling shamer for emanymton to bitch about.
> 
> The double negatives work but i'll retype it if you can't follow it.
> 
> ...


Stop trolling I'm not going to bite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

bimble said:


> Mine's a first edition.



Kudos!!! 

In Yiddish or Russian?


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

you win.


----------



## Teenage Cthulhu (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> My copy has been signed by all the Prime Ministers and Presidents of the state of Israel.



Oohh I would love to see a photo of that please


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Kudos!!!
> 
> In Yiddish or Russian?



In the blood of the first born?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> In the blood of the first born?
> 
> Louis MacNeice



No, Iron gall.


----------



## bimble (Jan 15, 2016)

I've just dug out my copy of the Elders (1978 english edition is the shameful truth). 
On top of the front page it says "united we stand divided we fall', which seems quite fitting in its way.


----------



## toggle (Jan 15, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> not as hard, for most people, as separate, accommodation or onomatopoeia



idk, i can usually get it wrong.


----------



## toggle (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I never claimed it was a magic wand all by itself. I am saying that its a very useful tool to improve situations.
> Women's networks haven't vanished years of inequality but they have played a part in improving the numbers of women in top jobs and pay equality.



because clearly women in managerial positions is the real fix to structural inequality. shall we call it trickle down feminism?


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd agree that at some levels there's a growing prevalence - more councillors tend to be a) not "born and bred" in the area in which the ward they represent is situated, and b) are more often members of the professions than they were 20 years ago. That may, in some areas, especially southern urban ones, be partly because of shifting residential demographics, though.


I was thinking more about 'activists' and self-defined left-wing columnists, commentators and 'journalists'.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Good irony as you do realise that she hindered equality more than any other Primeminster. There is conspicuous absence of equality legislation during her reign.



Good that you saw the potential sarcasm, irritating that you felt I needed my point explaining back to me.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 15, 2016)

Wrong thread ... or is it?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Good that you saw the potential sarcasm, irritating that you felt I needed my point explaining back to me.



The sarcasm could have just been that she reached top position before women's networks really took off.

The fact that a female Primeminster was against equality is not something everyone realizes. They often assume the opposite simply because she was a woman.

Urban is more politically educated though so I could have hoped you knew all that but I couldn't know it for certain.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 15, 2016)

Athos said:


> I was thinking more about 'activists' and self-defined left-wing columnists, commentators and 'journalists'.



Is the demographic of those involved a bit skewed by the forum for politics tending to be the internet these days, and the barriers that used to be or are in place to getting online and setting up blogs etc?  Although most people can get online these days, it tends to be the early adopters of stuff like Twitter that gain the loudest voice, and the 'early adopters' tend to be more privileged (acadamic background etc.)?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> The sarcasm could have just been that she reached top position before women's networks really took off.
> 
> The fact that a female Primeminster was against equality is not something everyone realizes. They often assume the opposite simply because she was a woman.
> 
> Urban is more politically educated though so I could have hoped you knew all that but I couldn't know it for certain.



History dictates that I knew all that for certain. But fair point, I could be one of those idiots that thinks that female prime ministers or black presidents herald a new dawn of full equality rather than those individuals being co-opted into the establishment for its own ends.


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Dogsauce said:


> Is the demographic of those involved a bit skewed by the forum for politics tending to be the internet these days, and the barriers that used to be or are in place to getting online and setting up blogs etc?  Although most people can get online these days, it tends to be the early adopters of stuff like Twitter that gain the loudest voice, and the 'early adopters' tend to be more privileged (acadamic background etc.)?



That could be one fator.  But they're taking over everything - from geographical gentrification, to pricing ordinary people out of football, to the preponderance of privately educated artists in the pop charts.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

ddraig said:


> so you don't mind being stopped illegally then? you don't think it makes you like a criminal when done nothing wrong? you don't think being stopped might hold you up and make you late for work or a meeting which makes you money?
> the fucking advantage you gain is not being called into question because of the colour of your skin and perceived standing in society, for fucks sake
> is it fair the black man is stopped 20 times more than you?
> 
> who are most senior management positions filled by? why is that?



Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?



Just fuck off.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

Athos said:


> Just fuck off.



Just asking a question.


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Just asking a question.



Seriously.  Just fuck off.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?


Hmm fair question. 

Though I still say there is no privalige in not getting stopped. 
Privalige would be them giving you a police escort to get somewhere quicker.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Just asking a question.


One they can't answer so resorts to just swearing at you.


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Hmm fair question.
> 
> Though I still say there is no privalige in not getting stopped.
> Privalige would be them giving you a police escort to get somewhere quicker.



You too.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?


met police data released after a freedom of information request in 2013 looked at data for the whole of 2012 and per 1000 pf population 6.8 men and 0.4 women are stopped by police. Can't link on phone but result was on first page of results. Not sure if this isn't just down to police targeting certain male dominated groups rather than female privilege.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> One they can't answer so resorts to just swearing at you.



The ignore function serves a useful purpose.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 15, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> met police data released after a freedom of information request in 2013 looked at data for the whole of 2012 and per 1000 pf population 6.8 men and 0.4 women are stopped by police. Can't link on phone but result was on first page of results. Not sure if this isn't just down to police targeting certain male dominated groups rather than female privilege.



Yeah, I doubt somehow that the numbers of, for example, wealthy white men being stopped and searched are any higher than that 0.6%


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> met police data released after a freedom of information request in 2013 looked at data for the whole of 2012 and per 1000 pf population 6.8 men and 0.4 women are stopped by police. Can't link on phone but result was on first page of results. Not sure if this isn't just down to police targeting certain male dominated groups rather than female privilege.



But isn't that an indicator of privilege (in this situation)... that male dominated groups are targeted over female dominated groups?  It seems to me that we're willing to recognise that here white males have it better than males of other races, but are not willing to entertain the idea that women have it better overall (again, in this particular instance).


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> But isn't that an indicator of privilege (in this situation)... that male dominated groups are targeted over female dominated groups?  It seems to me that we're willing to recognise that here white males have it better than males of other races, but are not willing to entertain the idea that women have it better overall (again, in this particular instance).


I think it says more about met policing policy than anything.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> One they can't answer so resorts to just swearing at you.


just dazzled by your theories of different races communities ability to harness the power of networking.


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Hmm fair question.



No, it's a stupid question. One that belies the fact that violence is overwhelmingly committed by men, particularly against women but sure, against other men too. It's a stupid question that means and proves nothing and deflects from what is an obviously male dominated society. I think they call it patriarchy.

Johnny, go back to EADD and Bluelight. Your 'pity the poor man' rhetoric will find a more welcome audience over there.


----------



## ddraig (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?





Gromit said:


> Hmm fair question.
> 
> Though I still say there is no privalige in not getting stopped.
> Privalige would be them giving you a police escort to get somewhere quicker.


answer my questions posted earlier first and i'll have a go at this one


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 15, 2016)

How many times is it that the (very simple) concept of "privilege" has been explained here?



Spoiler



lots


----------



## J Ed (Jan 15, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> No, it's a stupid question. One that belies the fact that violence is overwhelmingly committed by men, particularly against women but sure, against other men too. It's a stupid question that means and proves nothing and deflects from what is an obviously male dominated society. I think they call it patriarchy.
> 
> Johnny, go back to EADD and Bluelight. Your 'pity the poor man' rhetoric will find a more welcome audience over there.



I had a look on there the other day cos I was looking something up, they don't seem like a very happy lot. Addiction to RC benzos is not my idea of fun


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

planetgeli said:


> No, it's a stupid question. One that belies the fact that violence is overwhelmingly committed by men, particularly against women but sure, against other men too. It's a stupid question that means and proves nothing and deflects from what is an obviously male dominated society. I think they call it patriarchy.
> 
> Johnny, go back to EADD and Bluelight. Your 'pity the poor man' rhetoric will find a more welcome audience over there.



Not *particularly against women* - men are more likely to be victims of violence (albeit by other men) than women are AFAIK.  So it seems you're allowing a profiling of sorts, in that you say it's fair more men than women are stopped... _what if _police in a particular area thought men fitting a particular description were committing disproportionally more crime?  Would it be fair then to disproportionally stop more men fitting this description?  (I'm playing devil's advocate here - no idea whether this is actually the case.  Basically, are we willing to profile/discriminate/however you want to put it on gender but not on race (or other characteristics)?)

And, no, I won't go back to BL.    I'm a far more prolific poster here.


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2016)

gruesome.


----------



## Mation (Jan 15, 2016)

krtek a houby said:


> Indeed. It amazes me when some people repeatedly tell us that race is a construct. I think, yeah, I'll tell that to myself next time someone makes an anti-Irish comment to me, or an anti-Japanese comment to the other half.
> 
> If race is a construct; surely class is one, too. And why perpetuate class stereotypes, demonise whole swathes of people? Surely the "left", which is a very broad church, has room from people from all walks of life & they should not be sneered at or denigrated?


I've only read this far in thread, so forgive me if this has been covered subsequently.

The difference between race and class and whether they are constructs to me seems to be that

race is based primarily on perceived biological traits
class is based on circumstance and situation
The reason it's useful to talk about race as a construct is because those perceived racial traits in fact exist in higgldy-piggldy proportion amongst people across race. Race isn't true if you're talking about innate biological traits. That doesn't mean it's not a real thing when people act on their belief that race exists as a biological deliniator. But it also doesn't mean, necessarily, that if you are perceived as being of a particular race, that you will be treated in any specific way. In a racist society, you will, yes. But it is not integral to the definition.

That's not the case with class, which is by definition about your position in society. Not your perceived position, or deserved position, but the position people afford you and all of the consequences of that. The way society treats someone born into particular circumstances. How morally considerable you are by virtue of 'status' as a primary characteristic.

No?


----------



## planetgeli (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Not *particularly against women* - men are more likely to be victims of violence (albeit by other men) than women are AFAIK.  So it seems you're allowing a profiling of sorts, in that you say it's fair more men than women are stopped... _what if _police in a particular area thought men fitting a particular description were committing disproportionally more crime?  Would it be fair then to disproportionally stop more men fitting this description?  (I'm playing devil's advocate here - no idea whether this is actually the case.  Basically, are we willing to profile/discriminate/however you want to put it on gender but not on race (or other characteristics)?)
> 
> And, no, I won't go back to BL.    I'm a far more prolific poster here.



It depends on who is doing the profiling and why doesn't it?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?



In relation to crime and the criminal justice system here's a 2013 report which shows some of the complexity of the effects of gender...if you're really interested.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 15, 2016)

'Devil's Advocate'


Fuck's sake.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> But isn't that an indicator of privilege (in this situation)... that male dominated groups are targeted over female dominated groups?  It seems to me that we're willing to recognise that here white males have it better than males of other races, but are not willing to entertain the idea that women have it better overall (again, in this particular instance).


oh do fuck off


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 15, 2016)

Mation said:


> I've only read this far in thread, so forgive me if this has been covered subsequently.
> 
> The difference between race and class and whether they are constructs to me seems to be that
> 
> ...



I think that's about spot on. However, class is not necessarily visible, while race, construct or no, is. The traits used to pigeon-hole are real enough - and they're pretty much defined by what is visible, aren't they: you belong to the race you look like you belong to, pretty much by definition, with all the contradictions and biological nonsenses that brings with it. (I know it's not quite that simple, but it nearly is most of the time.)

Whatever social/economic class you may be said to belong to, you can walk the street without anyone sussing it. With race, clearly you don't have that option. The thing that is constructed is the immovable thing, the thing you can't change or get away from, while the thing that is more tangibly defined and definable is part of a system through which you can _potentially_ move and that isn't necessarily always visible.

Maybe that's where people sometimes feel confused by the idea that race is a construct. That doesn't diminish its realness in any way. For that matter, the potentially fluid and ambiguous nature of class doesn't diminish any of its realness either.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2016)

omg it's almost as if patriarchy fucks everyone over in different ways or something


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> But isn't that an indicator of privilege (in this situation)... that male dominated groups are targeted over female dominated groups?  It seems to me that we're willing to recognise that here white males have it better than males of other races, but are not willing to entertain the idea that *women have it better overall (again, in this particular instance*).



'Women have it better overall...in this particular instance'; you do see what you've done there in your eagerness to make a point? 

And you do realise it doesn't help that point...at all?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 15, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> omg it's almost as if patriarchy fucks everyone over in different ways or something



Are you trying to tell me that patriarchy doesn't empower all men equally over all women all the time and everywhere? Thanks VP this thread has been a real eye opener.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Are you trying to tell me that patriarchy doesn't empower all men equally over all women all the time and everywhere? Thanks VP this thread has been a real eye opener.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


 I for one am astounded by this revelation. ASTOUNDED I tell you.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2016)

Johnny Vodka I think you're trying to prove that women have privilege under a patriarchy again.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

It would be really interesting to have the world divided into three equal segments (equal in resources, population n everything).

One part would be run by patriarchy
One matriarchy
and the last one with complete and utter equality. Just as many women emptying the bins as men. Just as many CEOs.

Everyone will automatically like to believe that the last one would emerge as the most successful society. It would be curious to see if that turned out to be true.
The difficulty in this thought experiment is defining success. China is very successful economically, has a high approval rating of its citizens and a truly appalling human rights record.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 15, 2016)

How does one conduct an approval rating in a country like China? 

Serious question. I remember one particularly dense reporter in China doing a vox-pop in the street some time ago asking people what they thought of their government. Looking understandably flustered and concerned about being asked such a ridiculous question, everyone said it was great.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2016)

It would also be really interesting if equality wasn't viewed purely in terms of what job someone does.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 15, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> It would also be really interesting if equality wasn't viewed purely in terms of what job someone does.



I did say complete and utter. Parental rights, voting rights, employment rights everything.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 15, 2016)

This thread has surely got to be the final "nail"ed-on proof that MarkyMarrk is an out-and-out troll, who has set his sights on any topic he knows will get a rise out of urban?


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2016)

Which one is he do you think?


----------



## Athos (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> It would be really interesting to have the world divided into three equal segments (equal in resources, population n everything).
> 
> One part would be run by patriarchy
> One matriarchy
> ...



It would be really interesting to see if you could pour piss out of a shoe if the instructions were written on the heel.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 15, 2016)

killer b said:


> Which one is he do you think?


I think he's too subtle for any of the usual candidates.

Maybe there is an ubertroll capable of putting on a FoxyRed persona one minute and a MarkyMarrk persona the next.  Always changing, always ready to guide urban down its next self-implosion.

Or maybe it's just the latest prick.


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2016)

He isn't subtle, we're just suckers for a row.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

killer b said:


> He isn't subtle, we're just suckers for a row.


we just like kicking wankers like MarkyMarrk


----------



## kabbes (Jan 15, 2016)

killer b said:


> He isn't subtle, we're just suckers for a row.


Up until now he's been quite good at treading a line that looks as if he _could_ just be a naive young conservative eager for education.  He's lost it with this thread, though.  Nobody would post this thread here unless they are trying to cause a barney.  You notice that he really has pulled off a proper troll too, by dropping it in casually and then letting it burn by itself.  Just four personal posts to create a boiling 10-page argument.  It's top trolling, it really is.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 15, 2016)

I've certainly had to update my idiots of urban spreadsheet over the last week


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Up until now he's been quite good at treading a line that looks as if he _could_ just be a naive young conservative eager for education.  He's lost it with this thread, though.  Nobody would post this thread here unless they are trying to cause a barney.  You notice that he really has pulled off a proper troll too, by dropping it in casually and then letting it burn by itself.  It's top trolling.


unless you're a mite er inattentive it's been clear he's a twat for quite some time


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Up until now he's been quite good at treading a line that looks as if he _could_ just be a naive young conservative eager for education.


speak for yourself, I had him flagged weeks ago.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 15, 2016)

killer b said:


> speak for yourself, I had him flagged weeks ago.


I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  Or, I do now, anyway.  There is more than one productive urbanite that had an inauspicious start.  No harm to treating people at face value until they prove otherwise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2016)

kabbes said:


> I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  Or, I do now, anyway.  There is more than productive urbanite that had an inauspicious start.  No harm to treating people at face value until they prove otherwise.


yeh you got under the radar for example


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2016)

kabbes said:


> No harm to treating people at face value until they prove otherwise.


Of course. You may note that I've been replying to his posts in good faith even this afternoon (although that was mainly because there was half a decent discussion going on among the wide-eyed pretend ignorance & mock offence. Just not with him).


----------



## twentythreedom (Jan 15, 2016)

Gromit said:


> It would be really interesting to have the world divided into three equal segments (equal in resources, population n everything).
> 
> One part would be run by patriarchy
> One matriarchy
> ...


No


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 15, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> 'Women have it better overall...in this particular instance'; you do see what you've done there in your eagerness to make a point?



Overall as a group... over all men, over black men, over white men, in this instance.  Not difficult to understand, really.

And, finally, I don't automatically buy this white male privilege thing.  The most alarming stat to me is 4x as many men commit suicide as women (a breakdown by race would be interesting).  This can't be dismissed as 'men just choose more violent/effective ways than women' IMO.  

Just by observing friends/colleagues, I do think men genuinely have a tougher time emotionally (not everything can be measured as easily as salaries)... maybe can't express themselves as freely as women, don't bounce back as easily from broken relationships as women and are far more likely to turn to booze or other drugs in a crisis.  Just an impression... but nothing I've seen makes me think having a penis automatically makes life easier, certainly in inter-personal relationships (which are surely what matter most and keep us on the rails ultimately).


----------



## Nylock (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Hmm fair question.
> 
> Though I still say there is no privalige in not getting stopped.
> _*Privalige would be them giving you a police escort to get somewhere quicker*_.


In the history of dumb shit i have seen posted on urban, this has to be among the top 3.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

Nylock said:


> In the history of dumb shit i have seen posted on urban, this has to be among the top 3.



you clearly haven't read all that much of his previous output. that's about average level of shit for him.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

2 things at issue here Gromit, privilage and empathy. you have one and lack the other. 

you are in a position of privilage in that this shit dosen't affect you. you don't have to deal with harassment for being black. but the real privilage is in not having all that shit constantly taking up headspace and energy. you don't have to think about it, don't have to worry, to care. and you don't have the ability to consider how your life might be different if you had no choice, if things affected you whether you wanted them to or not.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Overall as a group... over all men, over black men, over white men, in this instance.  Not difficult to understand, really.
> 
> And, finally, I don't automatically buy this white male privilege thing.  The most alarming stat to me is 4x as many men commit suicide as women (a breakdown by race would be interesting).  This can't be dismissed as 'men just choose more violent/effective ways than women' IMO.
> 
> Just by observing friends/colleagues, I do think men genuinely have a tougher time emotionally (not everything can be measured as easily as salaries)... maybe can't express themselves as freely as women, don't bounce back as easily from broken relationships as women and are far more likely to turn to booze or other drugs in a crisis.  Just an impression... but nothing I've seen makes me think having a penis automatically makes life easier, certainly in inter-personal relationships (which are surely what matter most and keep us on the rails ultimately).


This is the same argument you trot out every time there's a discussion even vaguely on this topic. A lot of it is just your impressions, not facts.


----------



## Winot (Jan 16, 2016)

kabbes said:


> Maybe there is an ubertroll capable of putting on a FoxyRed persona one minute and a MarkyMarrk persona the next.  Always changing, always ready to guide urban down its next self-implosion.



Sounds like something out of Terminator


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I did say complete and utter. Parental rights, voting rights, employment rights everything.



So it would be a completely equal society with employment - that is work for wages? - is that what you're proposing?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Overall as a group... over all men, over black men, over white men, in this instance.  Not difficult to understand, really.
> 
> *And, finally, I don't automatically buy this white male privilege thing.  The most alarming stat to me is 4x as many men commit suicide as women (a breakdown by race would be interesting).  This can't be dismissed as 'men just choose more violent/effective ways than women' IMO.  *
> 
> Just by observing friends/colleagues, I do think men genuinely have a tougher time emotionally (not everything can be measured as easily as salaries)... maybe can't express themselves as freely as women, don't bounce back as easily from broken relationships as women and are far more likely to turn to booze or other drugs in a crisis.  Just an impression... but nothing I've seen makes me think having a penis automatically makes life easier, certainly in inter-personal relationships (which are surely what matter most and keep us on the rails ultimately).



Except in China...which is a significant exception and puts a bit of a dent in your admittedly confused 'overall as a group...in this instance' hypothesis. 

Louis MacNeice


----------



## Athos (Jan 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> So it would be a completely equal society with employment - that is work for wages? - is that what you're proposing?
> 
> Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Jan 16, 2016)

Athos said:


>



Spoilsport!


----------



## Athos (Jan 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Spoilsport!



What sport is there in a battle of wits with an unarmed man?


----------



## fredfelt (Jan 16, 2016)

[Ponders if being white, male and relatively privileged is a result of white, male privilege]


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 16, 2016)

This thread has turned into a real honeypot for idiots hasn't it?


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

This thread is great, better than the one about toilet door locks.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 16, 2016)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Except in China...which is a significant exception and puts a bit of a dent in your admittedly confused 'overall as a group...in this instance' hypothesis.



I have no problem admitting that globally the status of women trails behind that of men and that there are battles to be fought.  The suicide statistic I picked refers to the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> I have no problem admitting that globally the status of women trails behind that of men and that there are battles to be fought.  The suicide statistic I picked refers to the UK.


speaking as a man you should know you do the male sex no favours by continuing to post


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> speaking as a man you should know you do the male sex no favours by continuing to post



idk, 

he does show up quite how much more aware most urbanites are of issues affecting the victims of prejudice. and their willingness to call him on his bullshit, even when it's not an issue directly affecting them. and that's massively important. 

having dealt with this shit on enough threads, the bullshit they spout is fairly normal. them spouting shit dosen't really register on the scale of irritations. but when threads on prejudice (refering particularly to stuff on sexism) met with bullshit, funnies and silencing of anyone wanting to have a more nuanced discussion, most places and as it was on here at one point, there's a deafening silence while they get on with it. not their problem, mate. a culture where people who are not directly affected challenge the bullshit is massively important. tells people who expereince it that they don't have to stand alone. and shows up fairly well how facile those arguments are



SpookyFrank said:


> This thread has turned into a real honeypot for idiots hasn't it?



usual suspects. usual arguments.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 16, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> speaking as a man you should know you do the male sex no favours by continuing to post



Thanks for the tip.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> This thread is great, better than the one about toilet door locks.


There's a thread about toilet door locks??


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> There's a thread about toilet door locks??


the lack therof is its subject


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the lack therof is its subject


I see. I can imagine it would be as contentious as the why don't Americans use kettles thread.


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> I have no problem admitting that globally the status of women trails behind that of men and that there are battles to be fought.  The suicide statistic I picked refers to the UK.


That's good of you to admit, very gracious. . But you're right about how British men are three times as likely as women to die by suicide, and that's awful. It's also true that boys do worse at school than girls do. Those are real problems, serious ones.
Not sure how they help to support your contention that "women overall as a group" have got it easy though.  ?


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I see. I can imagine it would be as contentious as the why don't Americans use kettles thread.


The toilet door thread was great because it drew all the hidden repressed machismo out of this website, which is usually so very right on. There were men shouting really loudly about their unalienable right to pee standing up, like they were defending the last bastion of manliness in a world where 'feminism has gone too far'  etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Are women as a group stopped and searched as regularly as men, or do women have privilege here?



Research stop and search procedure, and cross-reference with percentage of female police officers, and you can answer your own question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Hmm fair question.
> 
> Though I still say there is no privalige in not getting stopped.
> Privalige would be them giving you a police escort to get somewhere quicker.



It's not a "fair" question, because it pays no attention to underlying issues.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> met police data released after a freedom of information request in 2013 looked at data for the whole of 2012 and per 1000 pf population 6.8 men and 0.4 women are stopped by police. Can't link on phone but result was on first page of results. Not sure if this isn't just down to police targeting certain male dominated groups rather than female privilege.



Part of it is down to the requirement - if the search is any more involved than "turn out your pockets" - for the presence of a female officer - to obviate complaints of sexual assault, intentional or otherwise. If you've got 2 or 3 male officers on patrol, they're almost definitely only going to stop and search males.


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Research stop and search procedure, and cross-reference with percentage of female police officers, and you can answer your own question.


I've definitely benefitted from the fact that women get stopped & searched so much less than men. I don't do it anymore ever but for years carried illegal substances around on me a lot of the time, through airport security even (personal use only ever) and was never once searched, because I look like such a nice girl.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Not *particularly against women* - men are more likely to be victims of violence (albeit by other men) than women are AFAIK.  So it seems you're allowing a profiling of sorts, in that you say it's fair more men than women are stopped... _what if _police in a particular area thought men fitting a particular description were committing disproportionally more crime?  Would it be fair then to disproportionally stop more men fitting this description?  (I'm playing devil's advocate here - no idea whether this is actually the case.  Basically, are we willing to profile/discriminate/however you want to put it on gender but not on race (or other characteristics)?)
> 
> And, no, I won't go back to BL.    I'm a far more prolific poster here.



You're not playing Devil's advocate, you're playing the goat.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> 'Devil's Advocate'
> 
> 
> Fuck's sake.



He always falls back on that when he's made a sexist twat of himself.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 16, 2016)

It's as if playing devil's advocate is some kind of heroic act instead of just being a dick


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Johnny Vodka I think you're trying to prove that women have privilege under a patriarchy again.



One of his favourite windmills to tilt at.
Such a shame that the sentence "female privilege under patriarchy is relative" makes the windmill vanish, and sends Johnny and his horse careening over the edge of a cliff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

killer b said:


> Which one is he do you think?



My money is on one of the teachers, but not the arrogant one who likes to persecute people for fun.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I've certainly had to update my idiots of urban spreadsheet over the last week



Am I on it?

Am I, Am I, Am I?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2016)

killer b said:


> speak for yourself, I had him flagged weeks ago.



Too many triggers - wealthy parents, Cambridge and private school education and _rentierism_, for a start.


----------



## Athos (Jan 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> It's as if playing devil's advocate is some kind of heroic act instead of just being a dick


If he's the Devil's advocate, the Devil is likely to be sentenced to death.


----------



## Athos (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> I have no problem admitting that globally the status of women trails behind that of men and that there are battles to be fought.  The suicide statistic I picked refers to the UK.



Yeah, and the testicular cancer figures. Lucky bitches!


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

*reconsiders post and deletes it*


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Too many triggers - wealthy parents, Cambridge and private school education and _rentierism_, for a start.


 Not to mention coming onto threads in employment and the parents forum as well as starting a thread about privilege. Wonder if it's the hepatically challenged one...


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

from feministing. 

cause sometimes someone else's rant is all the bother i can have. 

and it's a good one

and could be pitched right the fuck at someone who is thoroughly fed up with the bullshit on this thread

almost like they've heard it all before. 

odd that



You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare. Or some person arguing over drinks that maybe a lot of women _do_ fake rape for attention. Or, recently, someone insisting that I consider the idea that Elliot Rodger could have been a madman and an anomaly, not at all a product of a white supremacist and misogynistic society.

Most of the time, it’s clear that you actually believe the arguments you claim to have just for the heck of it. However, you know that these beliefs are unpopular, largely because they make you sound selfish and privileged, so you blame them on the “devil.” Here’s the thing: the devil doesn’t need any more advocates. He’s got plenty of power without you helping him.

These discussions may feel like “playing” to you, but to many people in the room, it’s their lives you are “playing” with. The reason it feels like a game to you is because these are issues that probably do not directly affect you. It doesn’t matter whether most mass shootings are targeted at women who rejected the gunman if you are a man – though it should, since misogyny kills men too. If you are white, it doesn’t matter whether people of color are being racially profiled or not. You can attach puppet strings to dialogues about real issues because at the end of the day, you can walk away from the tangled mess you’ve exacerbated.

To be fair, there are many privileged devil’s advocates out there who are truly trying to figure things out. I know people who think best out loud, throwing ideas at me to see which sticks to their “friendly neighborhood feminist.” Your kind like to come at a concept from every angle before deciding what you think. You ask those of us who are knowledgeable on the subject to explain it to you again and again because in this world it is harder for you to believe that maybe the deck is stacked in your favor than to think of us as lazy, whining, or liars.

It is physically and emotionally draining to be called upon to prove that these systems of power exist. For many of us, just struggling against them is enough — now you want us to break them down for you? Imagine having weights tied to your feet and a gag around your mouth, and then being asked to explain why you think you are at an unfair disadvantage. Imagine watching a video where a young man promises to kill women who chose not to sleep with him and then being forced to engage with the idea that maybe you are just a hysterical feminist seeing misogyny where there is none. It is incredibly painful to feel that in order for you to care about my safety, I have to win this verbal contest you have constructed “for fun.”






For those devil’s advocates who are trying to learn, I suggest you explore other avenues. Consider that you are not paying your friends to break down concepts that are often painfully lived experiences for them, and be mindful of their time and energy. Be grateful (and show it), and listen carefully and thoughtfully when they are generous enough to talk about these experiences with you.

Some might challenge that I am shutting myself off to new ideas and censoring important opportunities for growth. But these ideas you are forcing me to consider are not new. They stem from centuries of inequality and your desperate desire to keep them relevant is based in the fact that you benefit from their existence. Let it go. You did NOT come up with these racist, misogynistic theories. We’ve heard them before and we are f*cking tired of being asked to consider them, just one. more. time.

So dearest devil’s advocates: speak for yourself, not for the “devil.” Teach yourself. Consider that people have been advocating for your cause for centuries, so take a seat. It’s _our_ time to be heard.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> That's good of you to admit, very gracious. . But you're right about how British men are three times as likely as women to die by suicide, and that's awful. It's also true that boys do worse at school than girls do. Those are real problems, serious ones.
> Not sure how they help to support your contention that "women overall as a group" have got it easy though.  ?



Where did I say women have it easy?  My point is more that men don't have it as easy as some feminists claim.  Owning a penis doesn't necessarily make life better, and it's actually offensive to men that do suffer (like those that commit suicide at a disproportionate rate), or those who are indirectly affected by male MH issues (e.g have friends or relatives that suffer), to claim that it does.


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Where did I say women have it easy?  My point is more that men don't have it as easy as some feminists claim.


Dear Johnny, may I suggest you read the post directly above yours?


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> Dear Johnny, may I suggest you read the post directly above yours?



I'm replying as I read...  I'll read that post in a bit.


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

You might want to look into #NotAllMen after that, if still confused and angry, not that it will probably help very much.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Where did I say women have it easy?  My point is more that men don't have it as easy as some feminists claim.  Owning a penis doesn't necessarily make life better, and it's actually offensive to men that do suffer (like those that commit suicide at a disproportionate rate), or those who are indirectly affected by male MH issues (e.g have friends or relatives that suffer), to claim that it does.




no one has said that everything is magically fixed by owning a penis.


it's all about multiple intersecting factors.


thing is, everyone calling you a complete twat on this thread already knows this. they know your arguments better than you do. 

then again. considering the amount of time you've spent discussing this, you should know your arguments a lot better than you do. 

you've got no magic bullet here. no one is going to read you repeating the same tired and repeatedly refuted shit and have a bingo moment and suddenly realise you were right all along. cause you really are repeating the same thing. 

over

and over

and over

and people are telling you to fuck off now rather than arguing against your bullshit, cause we know it gets us absolutely fucing nowhere. 

cause you don't fucking learn anything. 

seeing th rant above, it's not just that we've been through these arguments before, we've been through them WITH YOU. and you haven't even bothered to pick up any new material. 

ffs


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Where did I say women have it easy?  My point is more that men don't have it as easy as some feminists claim.  Owning a penis doesn't necessarily make life better, and it's actually offensive to men that do suffer (like those that commit suicide at a disproportionate rate), or those who are indirectly affected by male MH issues (e.g have friends or relatives that suffer), to claim that it does.


 What makes you assume that no-one else on this thread has a male relative with mental health issues? I have, and I'm more offended by you making that assumption in order to score points on a thread about A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT TOPIC, ffs.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jan 16, 2016)

Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.

Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.

Ciao thread!


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 16, 2016)

Jesus


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 16, 2016)

what a div


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.
> 
> Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.
> 
> Ciao thread!


No-one is bullying you or anybody else on this thread, and I really wish people would stop hurling that particular accusation around when there is no justification for it.


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> throw a wobbly.


Toggle was probably either being hysterical or else bossy. Not ladylike behaviour at all.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.
> 
> Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.
> 
> Ciao thread!


And if they were valid do you not think the majority of the posters would be agreeing with you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.
> 
> Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.
> 
> Ciao thread!


the post is spot on, Johnny. You should read it again.
here it is again: 
"from feministing. 

cause sometimes someone else's rant is all the bother i can have.

and it's a good one

and could be pitched right the fuck at someone who is thoroughly fed up with the bullshit on this thread

almost like they've heard it all before.

odd that



You know who you are. You are that white guy in an Ethnic Studies class who’s exploring the idea that poor people might have babies to stay on welfare. Or some person arguing over drinks that maybe a lot of women _do_ fake rape for attention. Or, recently, someone insisting that I consider the idea that Elliot Rodger could have been a madman and an anomaly, not at all a product of a white supremacist and misogynistic society.

Most of the time, it’s clear that you actually believe the arguments you claim to have just for the heck of it. However, you know that these beliefs are unpopular, largely because they make you sound selfish and privileged, so you blame them on the “devil.” Here’s the thing: the devil doesn’t need any more advocates. He’s got plenty of power without you helping him.

These discussions may feel like “playing” to you, but to many people in the room, it’s their lives you are “playing” with. The reason it feels like a game to you is because these are issues that probably do not directly affect you. It doesn’t matter whether most mass shootings are targeted at women who rejected the gunman if you are a man – though it should, since misogyny kills men too. If you are white, it doesn’t matter whether people of color are being racially profiled or not. You can attach puppet strings to dialogues about real issues because at the end of the day, you can walk away from the tangled mess you’ve exacerbated.

To be fair, there are many privileged devil’s advocates out there who are truly trying to figure things out. I know people who think best out loud, throwing ideas at me to see which sticks to their “friendly neighborhood feminist.” Your kind like to come at a concept from every angle before deciding what you think. You ask those of us who are knowledgeable on the subject to explain it to you again and again because in this world it is harder for you to believe that maybe the deck is stacked in your favor than to think of us as lazy, whining, or liars.

It is physically and emotionally draining to be called upon to prove that these systems of power exist. For many of us, just struggling against them is enough — now you want us to break them down for you? Imagine having weights tied to your feet and a gag around your mouth, and then being asked to explain why you think you are at an unfair disadvantage. Imagine watching a video where a young man promises to kill women who chose not to sleep with him and then being forced to engage with the idea that maybe you are just a hysterical feminist seeing misogyny where there is none. It is incredibly painful to feel that in order for you to care about my safety, I have to win this verbal contest you have constructed “for fun.”






For those devil’s advocates who are trying to learn, I suggest you explore other avenues. Consider that you are not paying your friends to break down concepts that are often painfully lived experiences for them, and be mindful of their time and energy. Be grateful (and show it), and listen carefully and thoughtfully when they are generous enough to talk about these experiences with you.

Some might challenge that I am shutting myself off to new ideas and censoring important opportunities for growth. But these ideas you are forcing me to consider are not new. They stem from centuries of inequality and your desperate desire to keep them relevant is based in the fact that you benefit from their existence. Let it go. You did NOT come up with these racist, misogynistic theories. We’ve heard them before and we are f*cking tired of being asked to consider them, just one. more. time.

So dearest devil’s advocates: speak for yourself, not for the “devil.” Teach yourself. Consider that people have been advocating for your cause for centuries, so take a seat. It’s _our_ time to be heard."


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.
> 
> Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.
> 
> Ciao thread!




oh gawds.

you spout that shit and I'M the one accusing of throwing a 'wobbly'?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

toggle said:


> oh gawds.
> 
> you spout that shit and I'M the one accusing of throwing a 'wobbly'?


Well you and me ARE such wobbly bullying feminists...


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

toggle said:


> oh gawds.
> 
> you spout that shit and I'M the one accusing of throwing a 'wobbly'?



He can't hear you, cos he's got his offended man-fingers in his ears, and is humming a tune.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> He can't hear you, cos he's got his offended man-fingers in his ears, and is humming a tune.


LA LA LA LA I CAN'T HEAR YOU.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> Toggle was probably either being hysterical or else bossy. Not ladylike behaviour at all.



he's being victimised by the angry wimminz.

all that anger from all those people who aren't 'normal' like him. can't be allowed. 

only normal folks whose anger is actually valid.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Well you and me ARE such wobbly bullying feminists...



they can kiss my wobbly arse.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

toggle said:


> they can kiss my wobbly arse.


sorry but


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> sorry but



well, if you do give me feed lines that good......


----------



## trashpony (Jan 16, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> I have no problem admitting that globally the status of women trails behind that of men and that there are battles to be fought.  The suicide statistic I picked refers to the UK.


It's absolutely true that male suicide rates are higher. So what are you - men - doing about it? Women have fought every single bit of inequality we've suffered. Which is why we're not quite so as unequal as we were in some places. 

But if men are worried about male suicide rates, put some effort into addressing them. Don't just wave them about in a hopeless 'we're more depressed than you are' way


----------



## bimble (Jan 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> But if men are worried about male suicide rates, put some effort into addressing them. Don't just wave them about in a hopeless 'we're more depressed than you are' way



Unfortunately, about 90% * of social workers and teachers and psychiatrists / therapists are women. 
*totally made up / anecdotal figure 

But anyway, I don't think it makes sense to say it's men's job to think about and sort out problems like the very high suicide rate amongst young men in this country, or the fact that boys tend to leave school with fewer / less good exam results, it's all of us's job, because those are real problems for everyone.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 16, 2016)

The only people I've heard honestly concerned about male suicide rates have been feminists tbh.

The MRA crowd routinely wave the idea about but purely as part of attacks on feminists. When it comes to looking at the issue or taking action they at best do nothing and at worst reinforce the sort of intra-male behaviour that makes the situation worse.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 16, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The only people I've heard honestly concerned about male suicide rates have been feminists tbh.
> 
> The MRA crowd routinely wave the idea about but purely as part of attacks on feminists. When it comes to looking at the issue or taking action they at best do nothing and at worst reinforce the sort of intra-male behaviour that makes the situation worse.



Yes. Male suicide rates are a serious issue but they're not a result of power structures imposed by or favouring women are they?


----------



## trashpony (Jan 16, 2016)

bimble said:


> Unfortunately, about 90% * of social workers and teachers and psychiatrists / therapists are women.
> *totally made up / anecdotal figure
> 
> But anyway, I don't think it makes sense to say it's men's job to think about and sort out problems like the very high suicide rate amongst young men in this country, or the fact that boys tend to leave school with fewer / less good exam results, it's all of us's job, because those are real problems for everyone.


And yet despite this, men hold 99% of the wealth and 99% of the property (also made up). I'm sick of men complaining about the fact that things aren't that bad for women when the reason they aren't that bad is that women have fought and fought hard for things to be different. 

I'm not saying women shouldn't care about male suicide rates. But in a country where a woman is murdered by her partner every week, as a woman I care about that a lot more.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> And yet despite this, men hold 99% of the wealth and 99% of the property (also made up). I'm sick of men complaining about the fact that things aren't that bad for women when the reason they aren't that bad is that women have fought and fought hard for things to be different.
> 
> I'm not saying women shouldn't care about male suicide rates. But in a country where a woman is murdered by her partner every week, as a woman I care about that a lot more.



0.7% of men hold 99% of the wealth. So you hold a grudge against all men instead of the 0.7% that deserve it.
What percentage of women make false rape claims? Probably comparable so i can bear a grudge against all women if i was to act like you.

1 murder a week vrs 93 male suicides a week. As a woman you give a shit about you and yours more, nice blow for equality there. We're trying to battle about men caring about other men more and yet you are no different by admission.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Oh do fuck off Gromit.


----------



## toggle (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> 0.7% of men hold 99% of the wealth. So you hold a grudge against all men instead of the 0.7% that deserve it.
> What percentage of women make false rape claims? Probably comparable so i can bear a grudge against all women if i was to act like you.
> 
> 1 murder a week vrs 93 male suicides a week. As a woman you give a shit about you and yours more, nice blow for equality there. We're trying to battle about men caring about other men more and yet you are no different by admission.



please show the evidence for your allegation that trashpony holds a grudge against all men.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 16, 2016)

I'd like to understand why men feel the need to kill themselves so often and kill their partners quite often. I suspect the two are linked. Unfortunately I only have a finite amount of time and money to explore these things as a single parent (to a boy). We sponsor a boy in the Sudan and I also work with a charity that support local young offenders (largely young men) and NEETs in gaining new skills and developing greater self-esteem. I have to confess that I do also work with a women's refuge. 

I'm not sure I'd consider that holding a grudge or not giving a shit. 

What are you doing for 'the battle'?


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> 0.7% of men hold 99% of the wealth. So you hold a grudge against all men instead of the 0.7% that deserve it.
> What percentage of women make false rape claims? Probably comparable so i can bear a grudge against all women if i was to act like you.
> 
> 1 murder a week vrs 93 male suicides a week. As a woman you give a shit about you and yours more, nice blow for equality there. We're trying to battle about men caring about other men more and yet you are no different by admission.



This is just cuntish.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This is just cuntish.


It's his own special brand of 'but what about the menz?'


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 16, 2016)

My experiences over the years in feminist groups is that how patriarchy (and class, capitalism) through gender roles, etc. affects and hurts men too is something that does get talked about in them (whilst obviously oppression of women is the primary focus). My experience of MRAs (if only online) has been nearly always 'faux' concern about men's issues as a way of attacking feminism - and I've found a lot of them homophobic too towards gay men and their issues with coming out, adoption, etc.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 16, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I'd like to understand why men feel the need to kill themselves so often and kill their partners quite often. I suspect the two are linked. Unfortunately I only have a finite amount of time and money to explore these things as a single parent (to a boy). We sponsor a boy in the Sudan and I also work with a charity that support local young offenders (largely young men) and NEETs in gaining new skills and developing greater self-esteem. I have to confess that I do also work with a women's refuge.
> 
> I'm not sure I'd consider that holding a grudge or not giving a shit.
> 
> What are you doing for 'the battle'?


Nothing right now but I did plenty in 25 years of public service for an organisation cited as an exemplar for equal pay.


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 16, 2016)

To be honest the adolescent 'macho'-ness of the MRA stuff I've come across is hardly the kind of stuff to support a healthy sense of self and stave off suicidal impulses.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 16, 2016)

Don't forget Gromit's a self-confessed troll rather than just a fingers-in-ears dimwit like Johnny


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 16, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't forget Gromit's a self-confessed troll rather than just a fingers-in-ears dimwit like Johnny




'Troll' = 'devil's advocate'

Different dimwit. Same tiresome shite,


----------



## Gromit (Jan 16, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> This is just cuntish.



I think her post was the cuntish one. Can't people really not see what she posted:

Yeah yeah yeah men commit suicide but women get murdered and thats more important (despite the huge difference in scale of the problem) because they're women and i'm a women and because very small number of men right at the very top of the pyramid have got it soo damn good.

If this was somehow reversed Urban would jump all over it but nah its fine when women say it.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 16, 2016)

Nah I'm putting you in the thick box


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I think her post was the cuntish one. Can't people really not see what she posted:
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah men commit suicide but women get murdered and thats more important (despite the huge difference in scale of the problem) because they're women and i'm a women and because very small number of men right at the very top of the pyramid have got it soo damn good.
> 
> If this was somehow reversed Urban would jump all over it but nah its fine when women say it.


Why are you even here - your attempt at_ look at me being provocative_ has failed so badly that it ended up revealing the real you.

So many shit threads recently. So many shit posters. What's happened?


----------



## 8den (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I think her post was the cuntish one. Can't people really not see what she posted:
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah men commit suicide but women get murdered and thats more important (despite the huge difference in scale of the problem) because they're women and i'm a women and because very small number of men right at the very top of the pyramid have got it soo damn good.
> 
> If this was somehow reversed Urban would jump all over it but nah its fine when women say it.




No you're right you're regularly called out by pretty much everyone here for being a sexist twat but she's the problem here.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I think her post was the cuntish one. Can't people really not see what she posted:
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah men commit suicide but women get murdered and thats more important (despite the huge difference in scale of the problem) because they're women and i'm a women and because very small number of men right at the very top of the pyramid have got it soo damn good.
> 
> If this was somehow reversed Urban would jump all over it but nah its fine when women say it.


Just for the record it's not a very small number of men at the top of pyramid,  it's many of the levels below that as well, across many sectors. And working for an equal pay exemplar doesn't equate to you tirelessly campaigning for equal pay unless you were the one that put the framework in place and enforced it. Did you do that?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 16, 2016)

8den said:


> No you're right you're regularly called out by pretty much everyone here for being a sexist twat but she's the problem here.


 Thank you for illustrating my very point.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Thank you for illustrating my very point.


That statement by 8den illustrates sarcasm,  not that you're correct.


----------



## 8den (Jan 16, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Thank you for illustrating my very point.



No one can be this unintentionally stupid.


----------



## love detective (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Wonder if it's the hepatically challenged one...



wow - so liver cancer is an acceptable form of abuse now is it?

you horrid horrid woman


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

You're slagging off the wrong person over this one, ld.


----------



## cesare (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> You're slagging off the wrong person over this one, ld.


If someone referred to equationgirl as "the renally challenged one" they'd probably be criticised though, and rightly so.


----------



## Santino (Jan 17, 2016)

"The privilege of privilege is that its terms are rendered invisible. It is a luxury not to have to think about race, or class, or gender. Only those marginalized by some category understand how powerful that category is when deployed against them."


----------



## love detective (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> You're slagging off the wrong person over this one, ld.



i'm not slagging anyone off - i'm pointing out what a vile act it is to use someone's cancer as a way of attacking them and as their defining attribute

it's bad enough that it happened, worse that others 'liked' it and amazing that no one saw fit to point out that this is bang out of order

and all this on the next page of a thread where someone had pointed out :-


> how much more aware most urbanites are of issues affecting the victims of prejudice.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

cesare said:


> If someone referred to equationgirl as "the renally challenged one" they'd probably be criticised though, and rightly so.


 To be fair, I probably wouldn't criticise anyone for describing me in that way, because I am renally challenged, it's a fact. Many of my friends do say that. Which is why I described firky in the same way. 

I did not use cancer as a pejorative in any way in my post, I have never wished cancer on another (as some posters do).


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

love detective said:


> i'm not slagging anyone off - i'm pointing out what a vile act it is to use someone's cancer as a way of attacking them and as their defining attribute
> 
> it's bad enough that it happened, worse that others 'liked' it and amazing that no one saw fit to point out that this is bang out of order
> 
> and all this on the next page of a thread where someone had pointed out :-


I did not mention cancer.


----------



## love detective (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I did not mention cancer.



you didn't have to - as you know he's 'hepatically challenged' because he had liver cancer, the two are inseparable


----------



## Athos (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, I probably wouldn't criticise anyone for describing me in that way, because I am renally challenged, it's a fact. Many of my friends do say that. Which is why I described firky in the same way.
> 
> I did not use cancer as a pejorative in any way in my post, I have never wished cancer on another (as some posters do).



At least be honest, here.  If you saw another poster labelling someone by their disability, you'd be the first to jump on them.  There's no shame in admitting you were wrong to say it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

I sincerely and truly apologise for using the term hepatically challenged. I was wrong to do so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, I probably wouldn't criticise anyone for describing me in that way, because I am renally challenged, it's a fact. Many of my friends do say that. Which is why I described firky in the same way.
> 
> I did not use cancer as a pejorative in any way in my post, I have never wished cancer on another (as some posters do).


like Awesome Wells


----------



## Athos (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I sincerely and truly apologise for using the term hepatically challenged. I was wrong to do so.



Nice one.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

love detective said:


> i'm not slagging anyone off - i'm pointing out what a vile act it is to use someone's cancer as a way of attacking them and as their defining attribute
> 
> it's bad enough that it happened, worse that others 'liked' it and amazing that no one saw fit to point out that this is bang out of order
> 
> and all this on the next page of a thread where someone had pointed out :-


I can't see who said what you are talking about but Urban hypocrisy at its finest that people liked it and are defending it.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I can't see who said what you are talking about but Urban hypocrisy at its finest that people liked it and are defending it.



how the fuck do you know, if you can't see it?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

toggle said:


> how the fuck do you know, if you can't see it?


He's sneaked a peek. Couldn't resist...


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

love detective said:


> you horrid horrid woman



What are you a character from a Agatha Christie novel?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Bugger off, Toggle, you're on ignore.  The points I've made in this thread are perfectly valid and on topic.  It's YOU (and some of your chums) who is bullying and trying to silence people.  If someone starts a thread which goes over old ground, of course you're going to have recycled opinions...  We hear your ideas over and over, but that's okay because you're 100% right.
> 
> Anything that doesn't fit in with your narrative and you throw a wobbly.
> 
> Ciao thread!



Says the muppet who's just "ignored" someone because they contested his narrative. Well done. You're a sterling example of the sort of bollocksed thinking that gets MRAs laughed at, you poor little victim.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> No-one is bullying you or anybody else on this thread, and I really wish people would stop hurling that particular accusation around when there is no justification for it.



It's projection. Johnny feels oppressed by females in his everyday life, so he wears that oppression, and projects it onto any interaction with females that isn't on his terms. He doesn't realise that what he's wearing isn't an attractive look, and will turn people off. No-one likes someone who wears victimhood like a badge of honour.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

trashpony said:


> It's absolutely true that male suicide rates are higher. So what are you - men - doing about it? Women have fought every single bit of inequality we've suffered. Which is why we're not quite so as unequal as we were in some places.
> 
> But if men are worried about male suicide rates, put some effort into addressing them. Don't just wave them about in a hopeless 'we're more depressed than you are' way



I've danced the male suicide rate dance with Johnny before. He isn't "doing" anything. He just uses the subject as a springboard for his MRA crap. If he wanted to do something, then he could give a couple of hours a week to Samaritans or similar organisations, or coach young adults/do youth work and challenge the issues head-on. He doesn't. He just whines and whines and whines.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I think her post was the cuntish one. Can't people really not see what she posted:
> 
> Yeah yeah yeah men commit suicide but women get murdered and thats more important (despite the huge difference in scale of the problem) because they're women and i'm a women and because very small number of men right at the very top of the pyramid have got it soo damn good.
> 
> If this was somehow reversed Urban would jump all over it but nah its fine when women say it.



If that's what you interpreted trashpony 's post to mean, then you're even further gone than I thought. It fairly obviously referred to the imbalance between the ways male and female issues are considered.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've danced the male suicide rate dance with Johnny before. He isn't "doing" anything. He just uses the subject as a springboard for his MRA crap. If he wanted to do something, then he could give a couple of hours a week to Samaritans or similar organisations, or coach young adults/do youth work and challenge the issues head-on. He doesn't. He just whines and whines and whines.



nods.

anyone who is prepared to give a shit about male suicide rather than just use it as a stick to try to beat uppity (or perhaps wobbly) women with will already be aware that the toxic masculinity promoted by MRAs is a major factor in male suicide. the defining of masculinity as strength, resiliance, bravery (everything that isn't weak and feminine) both drives men to feel like failures when they can't fit that image and prevents them from seeking help in dealing with these emotions.

in attacking toxic masculinity in it's many forms, in challenging the narritive of what 'real men' do, feminists are the ones who are doing something to help.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I can't see who said what you are talking about but Urban hypocrisy at its finest that people liked it and are defending it.


fuck off you abysmal little man


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If that's what you interpreted trashpony 's post to mean, then you're even further gone than I thought. It fairly obviously referred to the imbalance between the ways male and female issues are considered.


You are missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 17, 2016)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You are missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.



Whose point: trashpony 's original point, or your shonky piece of trolling bullshit?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Whose point: trashpony 's original point, or your shonky piece of trolling bullshit?


No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling


What's it like to be the worst long time poster Gromit?


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You are missing the point, to such a degree that I can only assume you're doing it on purpose.



are you actually trying to be funny now?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What's it like to be the worst long time poster Gromit?


What's it like to be an idiot butchersapron?


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 17, 2016)

If only it wasn't against the rules to do a poll on Gromit's worth


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

although that said, ti's not that hard to work out why MRa groups whine so much that women haven't dealt with all the issues they have identified. that's their role you see, they deal with the ideas and the politics, cause they is the menz. 

women are natural carers. and all that feminist stuff that involved refuges and stuff only proved that. the objection is that they only did this for women. cause they as the menz is still doing all the thinking (if we could just stop being silly little girlies and let them), the women should be doing all the caring and practical stuff and we damn well should be doing that for the menz as well, as soon as they have told us where the problems are.


----------



## andysays (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> What's it like to be an idiot butchersapron?


----------



## The Boy (Jan 17, 2016)

toggle said:


> are you actually trying to be funny now?



God loves a trier.  And God knows he trying.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

The Boy said:


> God loves a trier.  And God knows he trying.




he's trying in the same way as 3 kids are trying after a rainy half term.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling



*YOU* are that stupid. That much is apparent.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> If only it wasn't against the rules to do a poll on Gromit's worth



thruppence ha'penny farthing, or just under 1 and a halfpence in new money.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *YOU* are that stupid. That much is apparent.



wonders if you are also about to become a non person. 

like most of the idiots of this sort, he puts people who challenge his idiocy on ignore


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> thruppence ha'penny farthing, or just under 1 and a halfpence in new money.



idk, 

that amount of bullshit generation could be the beginning of a thriving fertilizer business


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

toggle said:


> idk,
> 
> that amount of bullshit generation could be the beginning of a thriving fertilizer business


or the feedstock for a waste to energy plant of some size.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> or the feedstock for a waste to energy plant of some size.



clearly the wimminz have the better business skills here ViolentPanda


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *YOU* are that stupid. That much is apparent.


Yawn. Come back when you have some actual arguments.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Yawn. Come back when you have some actual arguments.



please, try this yourself. 

i've read work by people who are capable of getting actual publishers (as in not self published or AVFM) to print their stuff on mens rights. there's some interesting stuff out there, that actually requires some thought to counter. 

but since i'm probably sill on ignore, someone needs to explain the same shit to gromit that made jv put me on ignore.

people aren't telling him to fuck off because they can't counter his grand debate, it's because they are fed up with doing so over and over and over again. 

the same shit. 

always the same shit. 

and it's fucking tedious.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

toggle said:


> please, try this yourself.
> 
> i've read work by people who are capable of getting actual publishers (as in not self published or AVFM) to print their stuff on mens rights. there's some interesting stuff out there, that actually requires some thought to counter.
> 
> ...


It's been done so many times to the pair of them that it does get tedious explaining it time and time again,  especially when neither of them actually seem to want to change their viewpoints or admit their 'arguments' are nothing of the sort.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

oh, and if anyone wants to read someone having some proper fun with this shit, try david futrelle

We Hunted The Mammoth


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> It's been done so many times to the pair of them that it does get tedious explaining it time and time again,  especially when neither of them actually seem to want to change their viewpoints or admit their 'arguments' are nothing of the sort.



it might be worthwhile if they actually bothered with some new material every now and again.

fuck, we can't even get past the MRA troll 4th class here anymore


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

personally I'm agog to hear about the business secrets of the jews. Spill the matzo flour Gromit. And at the same time explain why black people fail to work this network wizadry as you claimed happens. Thick and lazy? you managed to weigh in some disgusting stereotypes and did it on purpose while chortling to yourself 'ho ho watch me get away with this one cos I said 'communities'

you wafer thin fucking twat


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

idk, bring back that bert troll who spent ages telling us that we were privilaged by being sexually harassed. he at least did it properly


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit (to VP) said:


> No one is this stupid, you have to be trolling





Gromit said:


> What's it like to be an idiot butchersapron?



Jesus Christ - quite apart from the sheer balls involved in Gromit of all people accusing others of being thick...  Like them or not, if you don't credit that VP and butch are a good deal smarter than the average fucking bear, you really have no understanding of... well... anything.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2016)

Why does anyone still reply to that prick? At least Johnny Vodka is kind of endearing.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Why does anyone still reply to that prick? At least Johnny Vodka is kind of endearing.


really?


jesus - it may not be the worst belief system in the world, but MRA types are the very opposite of endearing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> really?
> 
> 
> jesus - it may not be the worst belief system in the world, but MRA types are the very opposite of endearing.



Endearing because there's such a stupid naivety about him. He has literally no clue about anything


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Endearing because there's such a stupid naivety about him. He has literally no clue about anything


Nah - not after he's had the benefit of so many explanations, so much evidence.  It's deliberate.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> Nah - not after he's had the benefit of so many explanations, so much evidence.  It's deliberate.



I don't know, I think he actually is that thick tbh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

I've seen JV analysing fiction in the past, films. He really is that thick. Like watching an ape trying to do a rubiks cube


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> I don't know, I think he actually is that thick tbh.


No, not after everything he has had explained to him patiently, repeatedly and in great detail. Yet he still persists with his 'but the menzzzzzz,' posts. That's deliberate.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

My impression is that JV has some serious emotional issues he wants to deal with but can't for whatever reason. I think he is pretty fucked up because of various things that have happened in his life but instead of working on them he projects them out, onto others, because it's easier, because it provides easy legitimization of the way he feels, and maybe simply because he's not emotionally equipped to be able to do anything other than that. I _do_ have a small amount of sympathy for him because of that impression I have of him. If someone isn't ready to deal with their own issues, no amount of explaining to someone why they should will help. At the same time, I say 'small' for a reason. It is very difficult to maintain the same level of empathy in the face of what often seems like willful disregard and idiocy. I've lost my shit with JV precisely once, and I felt bad about it afterwards. What bullshit is this when I am the one feeling bad about getting angry at someone who spouts MRA crap? But of course, the MRA thing is so popular because it manages to prey on those who are otherwise fucked up in some way or another, and gives them an easy out. It's like blaming immigrants for the logic of capitalism - blame women for the logic of patriarchy. In the same way I can understand why people focus on immigrants I'm not going to give them a pass, and neither am I going to give JV a pass, even though I sometimes feel a bit conflicted because I wish he would get some proper help.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 17, 2016)

Personally I have no more sympathy for MRAs than I do for members of EDL. They're all cunts. 

I won't excuse it. If you're fucked up and hate people because of the colour of the skin or having a vagina then yes, you need help. But really, hateful people need to take some responsibility for it.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

But Gromit is just a dick, right?


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> But Gromit is just a dick, right?



I don't understand why people still reply to him.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> But Gromit is just a dick, right?





frogwoman said:


> I don't understand why people still reply to him.


It's why I'm not bothering to reply


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> But Gromit is just a dick, right?



MRAs are this decades' 9/11 truthers ubiquitous on the Internet, self righteous, pompous and indignant at their lot in life.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

8den said:


> MRAs are this decades' 9/11 truthers ubiquitous on the Internet, self righteous, pompous and indignant at their lot in life.



I'm not a MRA'er.

I think both MRA's are dicks and Feminists are dicks. I like calling both out on their bullshit. On this forum though there is more feminist bullshit than MRA bullshit so its the feminists i end up arguing with.


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a MRA'er.
> 
> I think both MRA's are dicks and Feminists are dicks. I like calling both out on their bullshit. On this forum though there is more feminist bullshit than MRA bullshit so its the feminists i end up arguing with.



Feminist bullshit? 

If there's one thing the MRAs have shown me its that feminism is vital because equal rights have a massive way to go.


----------



## Santino (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a MRA'er.
> 
> I think both MRA's are dicks and Feminists are dicks. I like calling both out on their bullshit. On this forum though there is more feminist bullshit than MRA bullshit so its the feminists i end up arguing with.


You're a pathetic idiotic cunt.


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Santino said:


> You're a pathetic idiotic cunt.



It's impressive how many different ways urban can tell Gromit he's s cunt and equally impressive how many ways he can find to ignore it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a MRA'er.
> 
> I think both MRA's are dicks and Feminists are dicks. I like calling both out on their bullshit. On this forum though there is more feminist bullshit than MRA bullshit so its the feminists i end up arguing with.


And this is why feminism is required, because people like you think that women having the temerity to stand up for their rights is bullshit. You really are pathetic.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

8den said:


> It's impressive how many different ways urban can tell Gromit he's s cunt and equally impressive how many ways he can find to ignore it.



Accusations without evidence are easy to ignore. If people can't come up with anything better than you're an idiot or a cunt to dispute a post then why should i bother to pay attention to them. Instead i've decided to join in and do things the urban way.

p.s. You're a cunt.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Accusations without evidence are easy to ignore. If people can't come up with anything better than you're an idiot or a cunt to dispute a post then why should i bother to pay attention to them. Instead i've decided to join in and do things the urban way.
> 
> p.s. You're a cunt.



but you don't bother paying attention to anything. 

not even enough to come up with any new material.


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Accusations without evidence are easy to ignore. If people can't come up with anything better than you're an idiot or a cunt to dispute a post then why should i bother to pay attention to them. Instead i've decided to join in and do things the urban way.
> 
> p.s. You're a cunt.



Yeah Gromit the reason people think you're a cunt is that you have gotten lots of Polite measured answers and ignored them


----------



## The Octagon (Jan 17, 2016)

Self-acknowledged troll guys, sometimes it's worth engaging and other times not. 

Ignore it and let it die.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

The Octagon said:


> Self-acknowledged troll guys, sometimes it's worth engaging and other times not.
> 
> Ignore it and let it die.


seems incredibly resistant to that, sadly.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

or subtly goad him till he crosses a line. Got sailing close to the wind with the jews and blacks stuff eh Gromit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2016)

butchersapron said:


> What's it like to be the worst long time poster Gromit?


worse than Diamond, that's saying something


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> or subtly goad him till he crosses a line. Got sailing close to the wind with the jews and blacks stuff eh Gromit?



this one isn't awesome wells, despite the similarity in opinion on some things. he puts them on ignore rather than throwing a complete shit fit first.


----------



## The Octagon (Jan 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> worse than Diamond, that's saying something



He's not posted on this thread, why tag him? Keep your beef to yourself eh? Good thread (only reading myself), don't fuck it up.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

8den said:


> Yeah Gromit the reason people think you're a cunt is that you have gotten lots of Polite measured answers... /snip



You're 'aving a laugh.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> worse than Diamond, that's saying something


leave him be, he's enough to deal with at present. Please?


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

The Octagon said:


> Self-acknowledged troll guys, sometimes it's worth engaging and other times not.
> 
> Ignore it and let it die.



Its just a shame that all the people sending me PM's of support won't engage with this thread because they know they'll receive this sort of dismissive behavior / abuse.


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You're 'aving a laugh.



No no you're right everyone's been a dick to you since before you opened your gob on the vast litany of subjects you've been offensively wrong about.


----------



## The Octagon (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Its just a shame that all the people sending me PM's of support won't engage with this thread because they know they'll receive this sort of dismissive behavior / abuse.



Well if proof were needed of my point...


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Its just a shame that all the people sending me PM's of support won't engage with this thread because they know they'll receive this sort of dismissive behavior / abuse.



Oh god. This isn't even original trolling now. 

I've got five Urbans on ignore I am willing to make it a half dozen 


(Stanley, LiamO, PM, batboy, casually red) you'd be in good company.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> sending me PM's of support


numerous?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Yawn. Come back when you have some actual arguments.



How about I post up the many instances where your arguments are either tawdry and tattered, ornon-existent?

I can tell you now, for each time you believe that someone doesn't have an argument because they disagree with the vapid piss you stream out, you've actually shat on your own shoes a dozen times, and not even noticed it, with your nasty sex-case witterings, and your victim-blaming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

toggle said:


> please, try this yourself.
> 
> i've read work by people who are capable of getting actual publishers (as in not self published or AVFM) to print their stuff on mens rights. there's some interesting stuff out there, that actually requires some thought to counter.



Thing is, most of that writing, the authors wouldn't call it anything as anodyne or as value-laden as "mens' rights" - not least because if they did then fuckwits like gromit would circle round it like flies around shit.



> but since i'm probably sill on ignore, someone needs to explain the same shit to gromit that made jv put me on ignore.
> 
> people aren't telling him to fuck off because they can't counter his grand debate, it's because they are fed up with doing so over and over and over again.
> 
> ...



Yep. A whole fucking canon of whiny refuse-to-take-responsibility-for-themselves-and-their-sex misanthropic fuckbags, and they spew forth the same tired arguments time after time - not least because so many of them appear unable to think beyond rote-learnt call-and-response.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Why does anyone still reply to that prick? At least Johnny Vodka is kind of endearing.



I'd say he's more like an irritation you get used to.

Sort of like the itch from genital thrush.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

frogwoman said:


> Endearing because there's such a stupid naivety about him. He has literally no clue about anything



He's got a clue, he's just not prepared to accept the results his analysis give him - that he's the problem, not women.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> or subtly goad him till he crosses a line. Got sailing close to the wind with the jews and blacks stuff eh Gromit?



I referred to Black street hoods in a satire'ish  way that i will acknowledge upon reflection was wrong. Black disaffected youth would have been more appropriate.  I apologise for this now, I didn't at the time as hey people didn't politely correct me they just got snidey and implied I was racist.

I have never referred to Jews, That word is offensive and i should really report you for using it but i'll politely correct you. Please see Jew (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I praised the Jewish community for their networking abilities and I'm genuine in that praise. Its a shame that historical hangups are preventing such praise from being accepted on here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I'm not a MRA'er.
> 
> I think both MRA's are dicks and Feminists are dicks. I like calling both out on their bullshit. On this forum though there is more feminist bullshit than MRA bullshit so its the feminists i end up arguing with.



Unfortunately for you, you're not intellectually-equipped to "call out bullshit" any more involved than media commentary, so the only dick tends to be the one you make of yourself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Its just a shame that all the people sending me PM's of support won't engage with this thread because they know they'll receive this sort of dismissive behavior / abuse.



"All the people" being JV and a couple of firky and ninjaboy accounts.
Pull the other one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 17, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I'm not saying women shouldn't care about male suicide rates. But in a country where a woman is murdered by her partner every week, as a woman I care about that a lot more.


I understand that you're being provoked by fuckwittery, but I find this an odd position. As a woman you care about the deaths of women more than the deaths of men? As a man I don't care about the deaths of men more than the deaths of women. Not in any way. That would be a weird thing for me to think. I don't see this as a men vs women situation. Perhaps the fuckwittery is pushing you into that kind of position?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I referred to Black street hoods in a satire'ish  way that i will acknowledge upon reflection was wrong. Black disaffected youth would have been more appropriate.  I apologise for this now, I didn't at the time as hey people didn't politely correct me they just got snidey and implied I was racist.
> 
> I have never referred to Jews, That word is offensive and i should really report you for using it but i'll politely correct you. Please see Jew (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I praised the Jewish community for their networking abilities and I'm genuine in that praise. Its a shame that historical hangups are preventing such praise from being accepted on here.


no, gromit, you tried to sneak in edgy racial stereotypes under the radar cos you think you are clever. But you are not, hence you abasing yourself now.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I referred to Black street hoods in a satire'ish  way that i will acknowledge upon reflection was wrong. Black disaffected youth would have been more appropriate.  I apologise for this now, I didn't at the time as hey people didn't politely correct me they just got snidey and implied I was racist.
> 
> I have never referred to Jews, That word is offensive and i should really report you for using it but i'll politely correct you. Please see Jew (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> I praised the Jewish community for their networking abilities and I'm genuine in that praise. Its a shame that historical hangups are preventing such praise from being accepted on here.


Did you read that link?!  

I mean, as much as wikipedia is an authority on anything, it actually says the complete opposite to what you seem to think it does.   Thick twat.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> but since i'm probably sill on ignore, someone needs to explain the same shit to gromit



Please explain to whoever wrote that that they need to understand the point of ignore. For whatever reason they once upon a time lost the right to talk to me hence the fact they are on ignore and so no they don't get to explain anything to me even via a third party. I did not read the rest of what was said.


----------



## spanglechick (Jan 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I understand that you're being provoked by fuckwittery, but I find this an odd position. As a woman you care about the deaths of women more than the deaths of men? As a man I don't care about the deaths of men more than the deaths of women. Not in any way. That would be a weird thing for me to think. I don't see this as a men vs women situation. Perhaps the fuckwittery is pushing you into that kind of position?


Is it not more that murder is a bigger crime, a more worrying transgression, than suicide?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I praised the Jewish community for their networking abilities and I'm genuine in that praise. Its a shame that historical hangups are preventing such praise from being accepted on here.



you did neglect to praise black people on their natural athletic abilites as well so your race-praise is not wholly complete. Be sure to work in a bit about how japanese people are honourable while you are there chap.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

I read that [trashy's thing that lbj responded to, this thread moves fast] more as trashy expressing that in a world where everything calls for your attention and energy, you have to focus it somewhere, and when you're a woman who has to constantly defend the rights of women to do anything, least of all not be physically and sexually abused, that's where her focus lies.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 17, 2016)

8den said:


> I've got five Urbans on ignore I am willing to make it a half dozen
> (Stanley, LiamO, PM, batboy, casually red) you'd be in good company.



Lying cunt. You've been hopping around like demented little pixie all week since you got your arse handed to you on another thread. Now you've (finally) found someone you can pile in on... having failed miserably to rouse anything assembling even a little mob on that other thread. 

You sad, lightweight cunt.

e2a should've typed... 'lying, rat, sycophantic cunt' in the first sentence.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 17, 2016)

spanglechick said:


> Is it not more that murder is a bigger crime, a more worrying transgression, than suicide?


Maybe. I'm lucky that I've never known anyone who was murdered. I know that is a wound that never really heals. I have known suicides, though, and I know that that wound never heals either.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Please explain to whoever wrote that that they need to understand the point of ignore. For whatever reason they once upon a time lost the right to talk to me hence the fact they are on ignore and so no they don't get to explain anything to me even via a third party. I did not read the rest of what was said.



Do your own work, bollock-face.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I understand that you're being provoked by fuckwittery, but I find this an odd position. As a woman you care about the deaths of women more than the deaths of men? As a man I don't care about the deaths of men more than the deaths of women. Not in any way. That would be a weird thing for me to think. I don't see this as a men vs women situation. Perhaps the fuckwittery is pushing you into that kind of position?



OMG I'm flabbergasted! Some one actually gets it and has the guts to call it out!
Just a shame to had to make excuses for them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> I read that [trashy's thing that lbj responded to, this thread moves fast] more as trashy expressing that in a world where everything calls for your attention and energy, you have to focus it somewhere, and when you're a woman who has to constantly defend the rights of women to do anything, least of all not be physically and sexually abused, that's where her focus lies.


Fair enough. I may have misread it. 

Notice that I've just been liked by Gromit.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 17, 2016)

at most of this thread


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I understand that you're being provoked by fuckwittery, but I find this an odd position. As a woman you care about the deaths of women more than the deaths of men? As a man I don't care about the deaths of men more than the deaths of women. Not in any way. That would be a weird thing for me to think. I don't see this as a men vs women situation. Perhaps the fuckwittery is pushing you into that kind of position?



I think it's more to do with the inherent differences - intellectual and moral - between suicide and murder. The victim of a suicide *chooses* that fate. The victim of a murder does not.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> OMG I'm flabbergasted! Some one actually gets it and has the guts to call it out!
> Just a shame to had to make excuses for them.


Not really. I wasn't in any way defending you. Just puzzled, and perhaps a bit saddened, by the sentiment, that's all.

Tbh I think it's been your posting that has pushed the polarisation of positions in this way.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> you did neglect to praise black people on their natural athletic abilites as well so your race-praise is not wholly complete. Be sure to work in a bit about how japanese people are honourable while you are there chap.



Congratulations. You've finally managed to cross the line. Putting words into my mouth in an attempt to misrepresent me. You've made the ignore list.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

I'll still call you a cunt and you'll still click the 'show ignored content' button so its all good


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

I'm sure he's devastated


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I referred to Black street hoods in a satire'ish  way that i will acknowledge upon reflection was wrong. Black disaffected youth would have been more appropriate.  I apologise for this now, I didn't at the time as hey people didn't politely correct me they just got snidey and implied I was racist.
> 
> I have never referred to Jews, That word is offensive and i should really report you for using it but i'll politely correct you. Please see Jew (word) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



The word "Jew" isn't offensive. Not to Jews, no more than "Celt" is offensive to people from the various "celtic" races. You really should read links properly before posting them.



> I praised the Jewish community for their networking abilities and I'm genuine in that praise. Its a shame that historical hangups are preventing such praise from being accepted on here.



You repeat a stereotype - one that's actually been used to traduce Jews for at least 5 centuries - and you expect us to take as praise even if were meant as such? Get a grip on reality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fair enough. I may have misread it.
> 
> Notice that I've just been liked by Gromit.



You are tainted!


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'm sure he's devastated



I don't care if he is or isn't its just polite to inform him so he doesn't waste time typing posts that he thinks i'm going to read, digest in any way or reply to.


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll still call you a cunt and you'll still click the 'show ignored content' button so its all good


congratulations.

welcome to the club


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I don't care if he is or isn't its just polite to inform him so he doesn't waste time typing posts that he thinks i'm going to read, digest in any way or reply to.



no one actually replies to you thinking that you are going to read, digest or respond to their post. 

cause you never actually do respond to the actual content of their post.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You are tainted!


He did like a post in which I basically called him a fuckwit, though. So not all bad.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I don't care if he is or isn't its just polite to inform him so he doesn't waste time typing posts that he thinks i'm going to read, digest in any way or reply to.


you read the 'ignored content'. You can't help yourself. All this does is allow you to pretend you haven't seen my posts.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> numerous?


But of course. PMs of support arrive in droves, flocks even.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 17, 2016)

this is going well


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The word "Jew" isn't offensive. Not to Jews, no more than "Celt" is offensive to people from the various "celtic" races. You really should read links properly before posting them.
> 
> You repeat a stereotype - one that's actually been used to traduce Jews for at least 5 centuries - and you expect us to take as praise even if were meant as such? Get a grip on reality.



Like i said you are bringing baggage to the stereotype not I. Are you claiming its a false stereotype? Because i have plenty of literature posted through my door regularly inviting me to Jewish networks (well not me directly but to any one who might live here and be Jewish and interested. I only fit two out of the three and so don't qualify)
A quick Google search shows that there are at least 5 different Jewish Network events held in my area.
If people have a problem with Jewish people having such networks then fuck them. I however don't.


----------



## 8den (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Like i said you are bringing baggage to the stereotype not I. Are you claiming its a false stereotype? Because i have plenty of literature posted through my door regularly inviting me to Jewish networks (well not me directly but to any one who might live here and be Jewish and interested. I only fit two out of the three and so don't qualify)
> A quick Google search shows that there are at least 5 different Jewish Network events held in my area.
> If people have a problem with Jewish people having such networks then fuck them. I however don't.



floods of PMs of support and the protocols of the elders of Zion the next generation having tea and cake in his back garden.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

It's interesting, isn't it? That threads about feminism, privilege, whatever, end up being all about arguing with one person about often unrelated things. It's almost as if their whole project was to protect the interests of (in this case) male privilege by not letting anyone (and certainly not women) talk about the things they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> But of course. PMs of support arrive in droves, flocks even.


supportive pms arrive not as single spies but in battalions


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Like i said you are bringing baggage to the stereotype not I. Are you claiming its a false stereotype? Because i have plenty of literature posted through my door regularly inviting me to Jewish networks (well not me directly but to any one who might live here and be Jewish and interested. I only fit two out of the three and so don't qualify)
> A quick Google search shows that there are at least 5 different Jewish Network events held in my area.
> If people have a problem with Jewish people having such networks then fuck them. I however don't.



You spoke of Jews collectively - the "Jewish community" (your words) - being good at networking with each other. 
Your claim about "Jewish network events" is meaningless. That *some* members of the Jewish community choose to network and may be perceived as "being good at networking" doesn't mean that this applies to all or even a majority of the Jewish community.
Therefore, to make claims about "the Jewish community" as you did, is to utilise a stereotype about members of the Jewish community - that we're clannish and always look after our own first.

However you slice it,and however much you hedge with your "I don't have a problem with..." you're guilty of ignorantly propagating a stereotype, and each time you attempt to rebut that essential truth, you are just digging yourself in deeper.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> But of course. PMs of support arrive in droves, flocks even.



Virtual mail sacks full of 'em.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> You spoke of Jews collectively - the "Jewish community" (your words) - being good at networking with each other.
> Your claim about "Jewish network events" is meaningless. That *some* members of the Jewish community choose to network and may be perceived as "being good at networking" doesn't mean that this applies to all or even a majority of the Jewish community.
> Therefore, to make claims about "the Jewish community" as you did, is to utilise a stereotype about members of the Jewish community - that we're clannish and always look after our own first.
> 
> However you slice it,and however much you hedge with your "I don't have a problem with..." you're guilty of ignorantly propagating a stereotype, and each time you attempt to rebut that essential truth, you are just digging yourself in deeper.



As a group collectively they are better at it as more of them within that group (not all of them) network than do in others in various other collective groups.
I just did a BME Network search for my area. Zero results.

You don't have to have everyone in a group be good at something to say that that group is better at it than others.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 17, 2016)

Well this thread is shit now. Reckon we should sack it off and let him crywank at the screen on his own.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> It's interesting, isn't it? That threads about feminism, privilege, whatever, end up being all about arguing with one person about often unrelated things. It's almost as if their whole project was to protect the interests of (in this case) male privilege by not letting anyone (and certainly not women) talk about the things they want.


the last constructive discussion (by which I mean I was able to hear female posters viewpoints and it stayed on its derailed topic) was on the Facebook dickheads thread. Tucked away as a derail. I'm no saint mind, I realise me cunting off gromit is just contributing to the whole clusterfuck but I have very poor impulse control when it comes to internets.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 17, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> It's interesting, isn't it? That threads about feminism, privilege, whatever, end up being all about arguing with one person about often unrelated things. It's almost as if their whole project was to protect the interests of (in this case) male privilege by not letting anyone (and certainly not women) talk about the things they want.



I nearly missed this. I believe this thread started as a Men's Rights thread and was derailed by the feminists. But i'm not bitching and moaning about it. Boo hoo they wouldn't let us discuss how WMP is a bullshit construct Waaaah (whether it is or isn't).


----------



## xenon (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I don't care if he is or isn't its just polite to inform him so he doesn't waste time typing posts that he thinks i'm going to read, digest in any way or reply to.




 You've got toggle on ignore and thus  conveniently don't have to digest the post she made a couple of pages back pointing  out why your devils advocate type  rubbish is so tedious and  belittling  

 I don't get why JV  and seemingly you, find mainstream feminism so threatening or disturbing.  It's not a zero sum game  unless your social position is in Tiley founded on chauvinism  and all misogyny.


----------



## MarkyMarrk (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I nearly missed this. I believe this thread started as a Men's Rights thread and was derailed by the feminists. But i'm not bitching and moaning about it. Boo hoo they wouldn't let us discuss how WMP is a bullshit construct Waaaah (whether it is or isn't).



It wasn't started as a men's rights thread.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 17, 2016)

Bingo!!!


----------



## bimble (Jan 17, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I have never referred to Jews, That word is offensive and i should really report you for using it but i'll politely correct you.



It is not offensive to me thanks, I use it all the time, on purpose, with no 'ish', to describe myself.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> the last constructive discussion (by which I mean I was able to hear female posters viewpoints and it stayed on its derailed topic) was on the Facebook dickheads thread. Tucked away as a derail. I'm no saint mind, I realise me cunting off gromit is just contributing to the whole clusterfuck but I have very poor impulse control when it comes to internets.



yeah, but you just earned the honour of being one of the few blokes who is both sound enough and fucking fed up enough to cunt off gromit enough to go on his ignore list. 

that's a badge of fucking honour mate.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It wasn't started as a men's rights thread.



oh, 

what disguise was it wearing then?


----------



## 8den (Jan 18, 2016)

MarkyMarrk said:


> It wasn't started as a men's rights thread.



You're right it was a unicorn spotting thread


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> supportive pms arrive not as single spies but in battalions




all these hundreds of men scared to give their opinions in front of women online. considering the shit that pours onto women, urban must be a really unique place in attracting all these reticent men. 

i suspect that many of the women really wish right now that there were a few more men they know IRL who were a little more reticent to mansplain and interupt and nick their ideas and treat them like their own personal tea girl/secretary/bit of fluff.


oh yeah. and before i get accused of anything, studies show that in larger groups men start believing women are a majority and women dominate discussion when the number of women in the room hits about 30%. and in some cases, women are seen as too talkative when they try to talk at all. and perception of speakers' value can be as much to do with gender as content

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/02/07/u...ossy-or-brilliant-much-depends-on-gender.html


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

8den said:


> You're right it was a unicorn spotting thread






do i dare ask how we are atracting unicorns?


----------



## 8den (Jan 18, 2016)

Dp


----------



## 8den (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> do i dare ask how we are atracting unicorns?



"Men's right activists" who are genuinely interested in issues like social deprivation among working class men, or the high rates of male suicide are like unicorns, in that neither of them exist.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

8den said:


> "Men's right activists" who are genuinely interested in issues like social deprivation among working class men, or the high rates of male suicide are like unicorns, in that neither of them exist.




in that those men who actually do that stuff would sooner play with nutcrackers than call themselves mras


----------



## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

8den said:


> "Men's right activists" who are genuinely interested in issues like social deprivation among working class men, or the high rates of male suicide are like unicorns, in that neither of them exist.



You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves. 
BSE 1996
Foot and Mouth 2001

Its fucking heart breaking.


----------



## 8den (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves.
> BSE 1996
> Foot and Mouth 2001
> 
> Its fucking heart breaking.



The bit that has been painfully pointed out to you repeatedly is that male suicide is a huge issue, but you can't throw that back at women and use it as whataboutry when they point out inequalities and injustice


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves.
> BSE 1996
> Foot and Mouth 2001
> 
> Its fucking heart breaking.


You really are a nasty piece of work, trying to score points from other people's misery.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves.
> BSE 1996
> Foot and Mouth 2001
> 
> Its fucking heart breaking.



a suicide helpline set up and run by volunteers who identified as MRAs? or by staff whose salaries were funded by MRA orgs?

nope?

then we're still looking for the mythical mra who actually does something other than whinge at the people trying to fix the gender inequalities that cause many male suicides


----------



## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

8den said:


> The bit that has been painfully pointed out to you repeatedly is that male suicide is a huge issue, but you can't throw that back at women and use it as whataboutry when they point out inequalities and injustice



Well it was Johnny English who brought it up. I can't remember what context but i'm going to go back and have a look.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

8den said:


> The bit that has been painfully pointed out to you repeatedly is that male suicide is a huge issue, but you can't throw that back at women and use it as whataboutry when they point out inequalities and injustice




you know, if he was really interested in discussing male suicide rather than using it as a stick to silence feminists/women/anti sexists/dotty then he could start a thread discussing the causes of male suicide rates. has he?

has he fuck. 

cause it's only interesting to him when he can get it out and wave it about to try to show that it's bigger than everyone elses.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

fishfinger said:


> You really are a nasty piece of work, trying to score points from other people's misery.



Someone makes accusations about not genuinely caring about male suicide. Please explain how else I refute that without explaining the real life experiences that have led them to care? You dismiss that as point scoring. Fuck you.

I didn't even mention a friend of many years, who i knew in school and then worked with for many years. He hung himself and was found by his wife and the mother of his child. Its one of the reasons i hate religion so much. He got involved with a christian cult after the death of his father, who I blame for his death to a large extent, the cult that is. 
He'd just recently been promoted at work, had a beautiful wife and a gorgeous 2 year kid. I spoke to him 3 days before he did it and he seemed really happy. Still a bit down about his dad but otherwise everything was roses. Enjoying his new job. It made no sense for him to do what he did out of the blue. His wife had no idea anything was wrong. That the cult had been putting all sorts of crazy ideas into his head. They turned up to the funeral and were saying things about how great  it was and how happy they were that he was with god and all that now. Like it was a good thing he did what he did. The closest I've ever come to wanting to commit murder.

For months i alternated between sadness, anger at him, anger at the cult, sadness again, furious anger at him, guilt about the anger etc.

So accusations that i don't really care about suicide i take personally.
If you check most suicide threads on here even though i don't know the person if i spot the thread i'll be there trying to talk them out it with everyone else so yeah once again fuck you for reaching for excuses to have a go.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

You used the word 'refute' incorrectly.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

And that story is very sad, Gromit, but why do you have to shit all over women in order to draw attention to the problems with male suicide?


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Someone makes accusations about not genuinely caring about male suicide. Please explain how else I refute that without explaining the real life experiences that have led them to care? You dismiss that as point scoring. Fuck you.
> 
> I didn't even mention a friend of many years, who i knew in school and then worked with for many years. He hung himself and was found by his wife and the mother of his child. Its one of the reasons i hate religion so much. He got involved with a christian cult after the death of his father, who I blame for his death to a large extent, the cult that is.
> He'd just recently been promoted at work, had a beautiful wife and a gorgeous 2 year kid. I spoke to him 3 days before he did it and he seemed really happy. Still a bit down about his dad but otherwise everything was roses. Enjoying his new job. It made no sense for him to do what he did out of the blue. His wife had no idea anything was wrong. That the cult had been putting all sorts of crazy ideas into his head. They turned up to the funeral and were saying things about how great  it was and how happy they were that he was with god and all that now. Like it was a good thing he did what he did. The closest I've ever come to wanting to commit murder.
> ...


Sorry for your friend's death. Not at all sorry about you. You are simply repeating your disgusting behaviour of using other people's misery in order to support your pathetic trolling.

As someone with life long clinical depression, a history of suicide attempts, and a daily struggle to find a reason to stay alive - I despise you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> do i dare ask how we are atracting unicorns?


markymarrk attracts them as he's a virgin


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Someone makes accusations about not genuinely caring about male suicide. Please explain how else I refute that without explaining the real life experiences that have led them to care? You dismiss that as point scoring. Fuck you.
> 
> I didn't even mention a friend of many years, who i knew in school and then worked with for many years. He hung himself and was found by his wife and the mother of his child. Its one of the reasons i hate religion so much. He got involved with a christian cult after the death of his father, who I blame for his death to a large extent, the cult that is.
> He'd just recently been promoted at work, had a beautiful wife and a gorgeous 2 year kid. I spoke to him 3 days before he did it and he seemed really happy. Still a bit down about his dad but otherwise everything was roses. Enjoying his new job. It made no sense for him to do what he did out of the blue. His wife had no idea anything was wrong. That the cult had been putting all sorts of crazy ideas into his head. They turned up to the funeral and were saying things about how great  it was and how happy they were that he was with god and all that now. Like it was a good thing he did what he did. The closest I've ever come to wanting to commit murder.
> ...


are there no depths to which you will not descend?


----------



## The Boy (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves.
> BSE 1996
> Foot and Mouth 2001
> 
> Its fucking heart breaking.



Thought you weren't an MRA?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Jan 18, 2016)

The Boy said:


> Thought you weren't an MRA?



Not an MRA but..


----------



## The Boy (Jan 18, 2016)

Some of my best friends are women...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

The Boy said:


> Thought you weren't an MRA?


not even the mra want to associate with Gromit


----------



## likesfish (Jan 18, 2016)

Talk of privalige when your poor gets real old real fast and having people employed by the council at a meeting going to a packed room full of white people say we " need to get more views from ethnic minoritys 
Gets real old real fast"
   There is the loony end of feminism the only lesbians are true feminists and the rest of the rad fem groups which the mra types tar every feminist with unfortunatly while some men issues do need addressing the mra have already posioned that well


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Talk of privalige when your poor gets real old real fast and having people employed by the council at a meeting going to a packed room full of white people say we " need to get more views from ethnic minoritys
> Gets real old real fast"
> There is the loony end of feminism the only lesbians are true feminists and the rest of the rad fem groups which the mra types tar every feminist with unfortunatly while some men issues do need addressing the mra have already posioned that well


calm down dear


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> As a group collectively they are better at it as more of them within that group (not all of them) network than do in others in various other collective groups.
> I just did a BME Network search for my area. Zero results.
> 
> You don't have to have everyone in a group be good at something to say that that group is better at it than others.



You're grasping at straws to justify your ignorant bullshit. It's hilarious.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I nearly missed this. I believe this thread started as a Men's Rights thread and was derailed by the feminists. But i'm not bitching and moaning about it. Boo hoo they wouldn't let us discuss how WMP is a bullshit construct Waaaah (whether it is or isn't).



Go read the fucking OP. It didn't start as a "mens' rights" thread. It started with someone who claims to have a university education seemingly having no grasp of what the term "privilege" actually means, or the fact that privilege is *always* relative.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

MarkyMarrk reminds me of the man off the apprentice who tried to screw a nail into a wall


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis


niether have you gromit. If it was an argument about space you'd claim to have invented Mars you prick


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Like i said you are bringing baggage to the stereotype not I. Are you claiming its a false stereotype? Because i have plenty of literature posted through my door regularly inviting me to Jewish networks (well not me directly but to any one who might live here and be Jewish and interested. I only fit two out of the three and so don't qualify)
> A quick Google search shows that there are at least 5 different Jewish Network events held in my area.
> If people have a problem with Jewish people having such networks then fuck them. I however don't.




Oh no. I must be like a black person who has got no rhythm or is crap at running fast because don't think I know a single nother Jew socially anymore, not a one, so the only Jewish Networking I get to do is with a couple of the posters on here.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> niether have you gromit. If it was an argument about space you'd claim to have invented Mars you prick


Don't forget his weird Jaws claim


----------



## Santino (Jan 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Don't forget his weird Jaws claim


 That's an offensive word. It should be Jawish person.


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 18, 2016)

The most recent thread about male suicide is here Gromit. You could always share some of your experiences and thoughts about support/what can be done on this thread, like even Vodka and some of our 'nasty feminists' have done.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> You've obviously never manned a helpline during an agricultural crisis and had to deal with daily threats of suicide and later hear of farmers who weren't kidding and did kill themselves.
> BSE 1996
> Foot and Mouth 2001
> 
> Its fucking heart breaking.


As someone whose day job involves dealing with suicidal people, I find it rather distasteful that you are prepared to use your own efforts in that area to push some kind of men vs women argument.

It's a complex area, and probably deserves a thread of its own, but the relationship between gender and suicide is not one that can be simplistically reduced to a "look how hard us men have it" argument, and your willingness to do so is an offence to both those who die by suicide (men *and* women), and those who genuinely work to help deal with the problem, without their judgement being clouded by their other agendas.

As someone else has said earlier, this is not a zero-sum game, whereby men's rights are somehow negated by women having more rights: in reality, the whole issue around women's rights is about bringing about a situation where they are not disadvantaged by their gender - towards having equal, or at least, equivalent rights.

I find discussions around feminism on Urban difficult, at least partly because I am not steeped in the complex ideological and political issues around the topic, so I tend not to get actively involved, but this idea that male privilege is illusory or non-existent is so blatantly ridiculous that I am astonished anyone is still seriously trying to peddle the argument.

But at least leave suicide out of it: it is irrelevant to the argument, as well as being tasteless, and smacks of someone trying to engage in emotive point scoring ("you can't argue with my point because it's about people wot died").


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Talk of privalige when your poor gets real old real fast and having people employed by the council at a meeting going to a packed room full of white people say we " need to get more views from ethnic minoritys
> Gets real old real fast"
> There is the loony end of feminism the only lesbians are true feminists and the rest of the rad fem groups which the mra types tar every feminist with unfortunatly while some men issues do need addressing the mra have already posioned that well



however, we are dominated by commentary, where women complaining about unacceptable behavior and attitudes will be tarred with that brush, even if they do preface their complaints with the repetition of notallmen. because comments and complaints from some people is deemed more valid than from others, based on who they are, not the validity of their statements.

how can this imbalence be corrected, when these attitudes cannot be challenged without further derision?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> do i dare ask how we are atracting unicorns?



Adult male virgins, or "Mens' Rights Activists" as I believe they're also known.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 18, 2016)

Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour period it doesnt need a sophisticated or other wise theory to be called out on it.
  Women should be treated equally as should everyone else trans included.
The edges maybe difficult trans people access to rape  shelters etc may be probomatical in some cases I doubt a one size fits all policy would work but edges are always difficult.

 As far as I am aware  radical feminisints have zero power to effect anybody not in their clique so the mra should ignore them 99% dont know what a cis male is or care so mra getting angry about feminists is a bit silly.
 The other stuff that women want jobs to be treated like humans etc etc they can fuck off if they have a problem with that.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 18, 2016)

Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour period it doesnt need a sophisticated or other wise theory to be called out on it.
  Women should be treated equally as should everyone else trans included.
The edges maybe difficult trans people access to rape  shelters etc may be probomatical in some cases I doubt a one size fits all policy would work but edges are always difficult.

 As far as I am aware  radical feminisints have zero power to effect anybody not in their clique so the mra should ignore them 99% dont know what a cis male is or care so mra getting angry about feminists is a bit silly.
 The other stuff that women want jobs to be treated like humans etc etc they can fuck off if they have a problem with that.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Unacceptable behaviour is unacceptable behaviour period it doesnt need a sophisticated or other wise theory to be called out on it.
> Women should be treated equally as should everyone else trans included.
> The edges maybe difficult trans people access to rape  shelters etc may be probomatical in some cases I doubt a one size fits all policy would work but edges are always difficult.
> 
> ...



let everyone be equal - absolutely fine if we are starting from a level playing field. but we're not. how do we address the refusal to accept that the opinions of some people are deemed more valid than others, based on who they are, not what they are saying?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 18, 2016)

Well you cant
Personally depends on who and what they are talking about.

E.g. Prof steven hawkings views on black holes are way more valuable than some random bloggers views due to he has rather a lot of proven knowledge of physics.

A black womens experiance of racism is going to be more valuable than mine being white my only possible experience was some nutter screaming abuse at me for being irish and how  he hated the irish not actually being irish was a rather wtf moment.

You might have the answer to the worlds economic problems but if you've never done anything why would anyone listen to you?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Well you cant
> Personally depends on who and what they are talking about.
> 
> E.g. Prof steven hawkings views on black holes are way more valuable than some random bloggers views due to he has rather a lot of proven knowledge of physics.
> ...


Then surely you can see that even by your argument women know more about sexism and gender discrimination than men?


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> all these hundreds of men scared to give their opinions in front of women online.


No it's real thing, it's terrible, I even found this really good cartoon on a link you posted (the hunting mamouths one) which explains what the problem is. Note the cardboard boxes and the way that all male opinions are like being literally strangled during a total eclipse of the sun


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 18, 2016)

Amazing how many men there are telling everyone how men can't say anything any more. Must be true.


----------



## Shechemite (Jan 18, 2016)

I'm a man I'm terrified to give my opinion, off- or online. Always feel the need to say what other people might want to hear. Tbh I'm bricking it sending this post. Of course my maleness isn't the reason why I feel like that - there are other reasons. 

I'm not sure how to articulate what I want to say. Maybe that men are not disempowered for being men, but to be disempowered is difficult, and I can empathise with how that can be projected through MRA crap. Maybe. Maybe that sense or disempowerment affects ones sense of masculinity - I know it does for me - and that's a contributing factor to to projection of inadequacy onto women.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Amazing how many men there are telling everyone how men can't say anything any more. Must be true.


MRA nobheads criticise feminism and then say 'we're not allowed to criticise feminism'


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit Feminists are Stupid.  Throw Facts at Them. Tshirts


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I'm a man I'm terrified to give my opinion, off- or online. Always feel the need to say what other people might want to hear. Tbh I'm bricking it sending this post. Of course my maleness isn't the reason why I feel like that - there are other reasons.
> 
> I'm not sure how to articulate what I want to say. Maybe that men are not disempowered for being men, but to be disempowered is difficult, and I can empathise with how that can be projected through MRA crap. Maybe. Maybe that sense or disempowerment affects ones sense of masculinity - I know it does for me - and that's a contributing factor to to projection of inadequacy onto women.



It's hard being a human. I don't know about you or how it feels with the onus of 'masculinity' being on you but for me I'm all the time looking at and asking myself about  'femininity' and what it does to me / means for me as a person, as in , question it, see if it's any use to you or if other people have just shoved it your way.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

MadeInBedlam said:


> I'm a man I'm terrified to give my opinion, off- or online. Always feel the need to say what other people might want to hear. Tbh I'm bricking it sending this post. Of course my maleness isn't the reason why I feel like that - there are other reasons.
> 
> I'm not sure how to articulate what I want to say. Maybe that men are not disempowered for being men, but to be disempowered is difficult, and I can empathise with how that can be projected through MRA crap. Maybe. Maybe that sense or disempowerment affects ones sense of masculinity - I know it does for me - and that's a contributing factor to to projection of inadequacy onto women.



nail on head dude.

google for 'toxic masculinity'. basically, talking about the idea that men have to be proper red blooded alpha men and how damaging it can be to most men, cause just about no one can actually live up to those ideals. and it's disempowerment for being a bloke that isn't a proper bloke. 

but mras are part of the problem, cause of their insistance in promoting that ideal of manhood. and that any bloke who isn't alpha strong male is weak, beta. any man who supports womens equality is a mangina. 

and the more they spew this shit, the more they promote the common inadequacy in living up to their own ideals. and continue to get more bitter and more blameful. cause they boil it down to simple formulas. insert booze in one end and you will get to insert penis an hour later. if you fail in this, you blame feminism, cause that's clearly the only reason why women would withhold sex from a man who has the formula that works on normal women. 

basically, they have a complete inability to realise that the power structures of the patriarchy had a downside for some men, and instead of joining forces with the feminists who are fighting against those power structures, they blame them, as though it's women's fault.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> It's hard being a human. I don't know about you or how it feels with the onus of 'masculinity' being on you but for me I'm all the time looking at and asking myself about  'femininity' and what it does to me / means for me as a person, as in , question it, see if it's any use to you or if other people have just shoved it your way.




feels like a spent a fuck load of time with femininity being used as a stick to beat me with.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Well you cant
> Personally depends on who and what they are talking about.
> 
> E.g. Prof steven hawkings views on black holes are way more valuable than some random bloggers views due to he has rather a lot of proven knowledge of physics.
> ...




point is, that women are assumed to have less knowlege and ability than men, even when they do. 

how do you counter that assumption?


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> feels like a spent a fuck load of time with femininity being used as a stick to beat me with.


 Yes. My pink-painted toenails are angry & ironic, whether anyone sees them or not.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

S'funny, because most of these macho types that clearly want to be perceived as alpha males are anything but, and betray it at every turn.


----------



## trashpony (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> point is, that women are assumed to have less knowlege and ability than men, even when they do.
> 
> how do you counter that assumption?


I tell you something I see on here *a lot* - I, or another woman, says something and it gets ignored. A few posts later, a man makes exactly the same point and it's responded to by the other men on the thread. We all know it happens IRL but now I've started noticing it online, I've realised how prevalent it is. I don't think it's a conscious a lot of the time.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I tell you something I see on here *a lot* - I, or another woman, says something and it gets ignored. A few posts later, a man makes exactly the same point and it's responded to by the other men on the thread. We all know it happens IRL but now I've started noticing it online, I've realised how prevalent it is. I don't think it's a conscious a lot of the time.



I too have noticed this. And, without slagging off those who are listened to, it's the same well-recognised posters who are listened to when they repeat your point (which of course further muddies the water because there's an element of their popularity coming into it, but of course are they popular because they are male?).


----------



## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I tell you something I see on here *a lot* - I, or another woman, says something and it gets ignored. A few posts later, a man makes exactly the same point and it's responded to by the other men on the thread. We all know it happens IRL but now I've started noticing it online, I've realised how prevalent it is. I don't think it's a conscious a lot of the time.



Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

This place is a seriously  "safe space" compared to the internet at large - I mean it's a feminist sandpit. What have we got here to rail against? One cartoon dog and a couple of people called Johhny?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.


Well, if it's important enough, I am sure you can overcome your principles.


----------



## irf520 (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I tell you something I see on here *a lot* - I, or another woman, says something and it gets ignored. A few posts later, a man makes exactly the same point and it's responded to by the other men on the thread. We all know it happens IRL but now I've started noticing it online, I've realised how prevalent it is. I don't think it's a conscious a lot of the time.



How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

irf520 said:


> How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.


You do get to figure out who's who after a while, so it is quite possible that there is some (unconscious?) gender bias going on. It's certainly feasible.

I hope - and I do try to keep an eye on myself - that I don't do this, but it can be quite deeply embedded, and it's probably fairly inevitable that, if someone has the tendency, they'll also have a tendency to avoid looking too closely at themselves in regard to it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2016)

irf520 said:


> How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.


Well, Gromit has a special talent for it apparently:
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/its-possible-to-work-out-what-sex-you-are.339767/


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.



do you really still think shit like this is funny?


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> This place is a seriously  "safe space" compared to the internet at large - I mean it's a feminist sandpit. What have we got here to rail against? One cartoon dog and a couple of people called Johhny?




and it's been a hell of a fight to get and keep it as the space where feminism is more welcome than tit shots and rape threads


----------



## irf520 (Jan 18, 2016)

Maybe they run everything through this:

Hacker Factor: Gender Guesser


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> do you really still think shit like this is funny?


Was that actually a joke?


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> and it's been a hell of a fight to get and keep it as the space where feminism is more welcome than tit shots and rape threads


Yep. I'm new, I just walked into the sandpit have no clue how it got here given that the vast majority of U75 users seem to be men.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.


that's very adult of you.

you don't add anything to these boards. you act like a spoilt brat, not like a man. either grow up or fuck off. and tbh fucking off would be the preferable option.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

irf520 said:


> How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.



there's a lot of people who have been posting regularly on this site for quite a long time and discuss personal stuff. it's fairly unusual not to know the gender of someone who has posted enough  over a few years that you recognise their nic.

eg, i scanned through the last few pages and you're the only name there that i don't recognise and know some other stuff about, inc gender.


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Was that actually a joke?



unfortunately, i think it was.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> unfortunately, i think it was.


Some learning to be done on the question of comic timing, I feel...


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Some learning to be done on the question of comic timing, I feel...



i think there's a few steps to go through before the comic timing becomes an issue


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.



Maybe it's cheating or bad manners to post this from another thread but. By way of explanation: 



Gromit said:


> Men aren't allowed to argue with women on Urban. It's mansplaining you see. Or you must be some kind of woman hater.
> 
> Either that or there is that unconscious mentallity that you don't argue with women cause they might not fuck you if you do. Even though the chances of ever meeting are nil.
> 
> I never argue with women on Urban. It's just not worth it.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> there's a lot of people who have been posting regularly on this site for quite a long time and discuss personal stuff. it's fairly unusual not to know the gender of someone who has posted enough  over a few years that you recognise their nic.
> 
> eg, i scanned through the last few pages and you're the only name there that i don't recognise and know some other stuff about, inc gender.



Exactly this. Considering the majority of posters are regulars, it's difficult not to pick up stuff about gender, along with all sorts of other things like nationality, where they live, what job they do, whether they have kids and/or a partner, etc. There are still a few people I'm not sure of the gender of, people I see post every day in numerous threads, and there have been one or two where my assumptions have been incorrect (in either direction). But on the whole it's just one of those things you pick up about someone based on the things they say elsewhere.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> Maybe it's cheating or bad manners to post this from another thread but. By way of explanation:




I mean, if someone really must have that as a policy, fine. But don't go around saying it's what you're doing, or you make yourself look...well, QED.


----------



## LDC (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> basically, they have a complete inability to realise that the power structures of the patriarchy had a downside for some men, and instead of joining forces with the feminists who are fighting against those power structures, they blame them, as though it's women's fault.



Thanks for that, it's a dead good summary of the problem with MRAs!


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> Maybe it's cheating or bad manners to post this from another thread but. By way of explanation:




i need feminism because....

men still think it's ok to base every interaction with women on the likelyhood of them getting laid, and talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behavior


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> i need feminism because....
> 
> men still think it's ok to base every interaction with women on the likelyhood of them getting laid, and talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behavior



I found that post of his really charming / pitiful tbh 
As in..  the reason he won't argue with you is that he is hoping you might shag him one day.
So it must be quite shit being Gromit. Ever optimistic, constantly disappointed, totally deluded etc.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> and it's been a hell of a fight to get and keep it as the space where feminism is more welcome than tit shots and rape threads


I don't think tit shots and rape threads have ever been tolerated on these boards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> I found that post of his really charming / pitiful tbh
> As in..  the reason he won't argue with you is that he is hoping you might shag him one day.
> So it must be quite shit being Gromit. Ever optimistic, constantly disappointed, totally deluded etc.


a constant disappointment to his mother


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> I found that post of his really charming / pitiful tbh
> As in..  the reason he won't argue with you is that he is hoping you might shag him one day.
> So it must be quite shit being Gromit. Ever optimistic, constantly disappointed, totally deluded etc.



he's also got a history of willful ignorance and misrepresentation. as that example shows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

sleaterkinney said:


> I don't think tit shots and rape threads have ever been tolerated on these boards.


the former only on specific threads and the latter only in context see e.g. the cologne thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> the former only on specific threads and the latter only in context see e.g. the cologne thread.


Must be reading the wrong (or right!) threads.


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> he's also got a history of willful ignorance and misrepresentation. as that example shows.


I'm not excusing the Gromit just pitying it.


----------



## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> I found that post of his really charming / pitiful tbh
> As in..  the reason he won't argue with you is that he is hoping you might shag him one day.
> So it must be quite shit being Gromit. Ever optimistic, constantly disappointed, totally deluded etc.



Nice try. You can't kid a kidder.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> Oh no. I must be like a black person who has got no rhythm or is crap at running fast because don't think I know a single nother Jew socially anymore, not a one, so the only Jewish Networking I get to do is with a couple of the posters on here.



as far as I know, I only know one and that's through work. Perhaps we should start a secret jew private conversation where we can invite other jews in order to collude network with each other and like each other's posts in order to gain a better standing within the Urban community? Perhaps there's already one and neither of us have been invited 
(full disclosure: I am secular and half jewish, but it's on my mother's side so technically I'm good)


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> I'm not excusing the Gromit just pitying it.


i come to bury gromit not to praise him


----------



## stethoscope (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep. I'm new, I just walked into the sandpit have no clue how it got here given that the vast majority of U75 users seem to be men.



In the 6 years I've been here, it's definitely become less acceptable to be blatantly (if not always casually) sexist, post 'phwoooaar' threads full of nothing much else than pics of women, and be transphobic. So, all good in that regard. But that has still taken work by calling shit out.

Anyway, about time you posted on the mugs thread surely?! Good to put a face to a name


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

BigTom said:


> as far as I know, I only know one and that's through work. Perhaps we should start a secret jew private conversation where we can invite other jews in order to collude network with each other and like each other's posts in order to gain a better standing within the Urban community? Perhaps there's already one and neither of us have been invited
> (full disclosure: I am secular and half jewish, but it's on my mother's side so technically I'm good)


You're totally ok, long as you're circumcised. I'm a full blown atheist but anyway. Right. PM me or meet me after shabbat down that dark alley over there:  I've got a hot tip on how to get ahead in Hollywood / the nobel prize nominees list and will give you a preferential wholesale deal on likes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> You're totally ok, long as you're circumcised. I'm a full blown atheist but anyway. Right. PM me or meet me after shabbat down that dark alley over there:  I've got a hot tip on how to get ahead in Hollywood / the nobel prize nominees list and will give you a preferential wholesale deal on likes.


if it involves a casting couch we've all heard it


----------



## BigTom (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> You're totally ok, long as you're circumcised. I'm a full blown atheist but anyway. Right. PM me or meet me after shabbat down that dark alley over there:  I've got a hot tip on how to get ahead in Hollywood / the nobel prize nominees list and will give you a preferential wholesale deal on likes.



I'm circumcised but never had a bah mitzvah, so I think that means I'm still a child in the eyes of "my" religion. Obviously I can't come and meet you on the Sabbath because that would involve me travelling and I can't make my bicycle work on the sabbath. Likewise, no internet because of all the internet elves and that. Still, for the prospect of a bucketload of likes at a good price, I'll break any religious rules you wants.


----------



## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> if it involves a casting couch we've all heard it


It's actually a really interesting thing, how jews for the most part created Hollywood /the film industry . less smutty than you or I might hope though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2016)

BigTom said:


> I'm circumcised but never had a bah mitzvah, so I think that means I'm still a child in the eyes of "my" religion. Obviously I can't come and meet you on the Sabbath because that would involve me travelling and I can't make my bicycle work on the sabbath. Likewise, no internet because of all the internet elves and that. Still, for the prospect of a bucketload of likes at a good price, I'll break any religious rules you wants.


move into an _eruv_ and you'll be able to do what you want when you want to.


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## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

BigTom said:


> I'm circumcised but never had a bah mitzvah, so I think that means I'm still a child in the eyes of "my" religion. Obviously I can't come and meet you on the Sabbath because that would involve me travelling and I can't make my bicycle work on the sabbath. Likewise, no internet because of all the internet elves and that. Still, for the prospect of a bucketload of likes at a good price, I'll break any religious rules you wants.


What you need my friend is a Shabbos goy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


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## BigTom (Jan 18, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> move into an _eruv_ and you'll be able to do what you want when you want to.



I had to look up what that is  There's always a way around everything eh, those crafty jews


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## BigTom (Jan 18, 2016)

bimble said:


> What you need my friend is a Shabbos goy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia



Awesome, another loophole, so all I need now is a willing conspirator, with whom I can split the likes I buy, say a 10% cut for enabling the trade, but if anyone wants to make me a better offer, by private message only please obv.


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## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

BigTom said:


> Awesome, another loophole, so all I need now is a willing conspirator, with whom I can split the likes I buy, say a 10% cut for enabling the trade, but if anyone wants to make me a better offer, by private message only please obv.


no. you're totally losing sight of the point here: jews look after their own, we network hard,  So, I give you 9% on likes , You've got to look out for your own.


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## bimble (Jan 18, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Anyway, about time you posted on the mugs thread surely?! Good to put a face to a name


ok. Will try, I'm a cameraphobe but flattered that you asked.


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## trashpony (Jan 18, 2016)

irf520 said:


> How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.


The vast majority of posters have been here for years and you do get to know who is who after a while (10+ years in my case).

ETA as other posters have said but more eloquently


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## YouSir (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> The vast majority of posters have been here for years and you do get to know who is who after a while



Aye, you're all a terrible shower of bastards


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 18, 2016)

It is true, though; I've made posts on threads which are basically agreeing with something a female poster has said earlier on, and got likes and replies where the original doesn't. Once or twice I might be able to convince myself that it was down to my amazing posting skills but after a while, come on.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> point is, that women are assumed to have less knowlege and ability than men, even when they do.
> 
> how do you counter that assumption?



Repeated blows to the head with a weighted cosh sometimes works.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

irf520 said:


> How would they know whether a post was made by a man or a woman? I wouldn't, unless I'd previously read something by that poster which stated (or implied) their gender.



Gromit has speshul powerz.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Some learning to be done on the question of comic timing, I feel...



...and phrasing...and delivery...


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## likesfish (Jan 18, 2016)

Oi Gromit I'm trying to be nominated as Urbans offical idiot but people keep raising the bar cut it out


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

toggle said:


> i need feminism because....
> 
> men still think it's ok *to base every interaction with women on the likelyhood of them getting laid*, and talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behavior



I shouldn't have given you those pens when you and himself visited last year. I can see that now!


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## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I tell you something I see on here *a lot* - I, or another woman, says something and it gets ignored. A few posts later, a man makes exactly the same point and it's responded to by the other men on the thread. We all know it happens IRL but now I've started noticing it online, I've realised how prevalent it is. I don't think it's a conscious a lot of the time.


I know I've done it myself. 
Arabella Weir pointed it out brilliantly in The Fast Show but I can't find any clips.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 18, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> I know I've done it myself.
> Arabella Weir pointed it out brilliantly in The Fast Show but I can't find any clips.


there is the famous half a tennis ball to open the car lock sketch and it ran for a few more.


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## DotCommunist (Jan 18, 2016)

FFFF: The Amazing Invisible Woman | Gender Focus


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## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> The vast majority of posters have been here for years and you do get to know who is who after a while (10+ years in my case).
> 
> ETA as other posters have said but more eloquently


<strategically liked>


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## existentialist (Jan 18, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...and phrasing...and delivery...


Content could use some work, too.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

BigTom said:


> I had to look up what that is  There's always a way around everything eh, those crafty jews



We are not "crafty", we are Jews, and therefore "sly".


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 18, 2016)

YouSir said:


> Aye, you're all a terrible shower of bastards



Thanks! Best compliment I've received all year!


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## trashpony (Jan 18, 2016)

DotCommunist said:


> FFFF: The Amazing Invisible Woman | Gender Focus


I particularly love the fact that the first comment is complaining that the half tennis ball thing doesn't work


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## DotCommunist (Jan 18, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I particularly love the fact that the first comment is complaining that the half tennis ball thing doesn't work


lol yes point missed by a mile there! (the coathanger shouldn't work today either, nor would it have then.). How old is Fast Show now? and yet the sketch is _still _relevant.


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## Gromit (Jan 18, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Oi Gromit I'm trying to be nominated as Urbans offical idiot but people keep raising the bar cut it out


Second place in an idiot competition is where the true honour is. Winning is for idiots.


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## 8den (Jan 18, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Second place in an idiot competition is where the true honour is. Winning is for idiots.



Whats that line about applying to be the village idiot but being over qualified for the role?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It is true, though; I've made posts on threads which are basically agreeing with something a female poster has said earlier on, and got likes and replies where the original doesn't. Once or twice I might be able to convince myself that it was down to my amazing posting skills but after a while, come on.



You have a red name too, that's going to skew results.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

It's very obvious on twitter too. Women will post a thing, but it gets no attention until a man a) posts similar or b) quotes the woman's original tweet, and sweeps up the likes and reblogs for himself.

See also the disparity in viciousness of replies when women versus men talk about gamergate etc on twitter.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 18, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> You have a red name too, that's going to skew results.


It doesn't seem to mean anyone paying any attention in any other contexts tbh.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2016)

Maybe it's all in my silly little mind, but it's something I've noticed for years, that red names get more likes. The whole 'please the boss' kind of thing. I have not studied this rigorously


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## existentialist (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Maybe it's all in my silly little mind, but it's something I've noticed for years, that red names get more likes. The whole 'please the boss' kind of thing. I have not studied this rigorously


I'd have thought that was also compensated by a tendency towards "I'm not liking a MOD post!" is some quarters


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## existentialist (Jan 19, 2016)

toggle said:


> i need feminism because....
> 
> men still think it's ok to base every interaction with women on the likelyhood of them getting laid, and talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behavior


I'd been pondering on this overnight. I think that _some_ men still think it's ok to base every interaction with women on the likelihood of them getting laid, and _some _talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behaviour.

For those of us who don't think like that - or who, perhaps, think it only about specially selected people and only some of the time - it's a difficult cross to bear: calling a sexist out is no easier as a man than it is as a woman, especially if you don't want to have to deal with all the "pussy-whipped?" nonsense or whatever all the time, but at the same time it's pretty grim being tarred with the same brush as them.

I think, to be honest, there _is_ something about male sexuality that tends to lead us to place a fairly high priority on the assessment of any woman we meet as a potential sexual partner, but a lot of us (most, maybe?) learn that this isn't an appropriate way to behave, and moderate it, and/or, to some extent, grow out of it. There are, of course, those whose attitude is "Why should I moderate it?", and who will tend to regard themselves as being true to their manhood, out and proud, all that nonsense - they'll be the ones pinching arses and assuming that every woman they meet is just gagging for it. From them. And, of course, it all starts getting complex with men who perhaps resent that their level of engagement with women isn't what they'd like it to be (OKOK, "feel like they're being denied their fair share"), so overcompensate with some blaming and lots of acting-out.

Male pride is a strange thing, and not entirely pleasant to be around, even if you're a man. I think we all have it, but the civilised ones among us have learned that, like our dicks, it's generally not a great idea to go around with it hanging out all over the place.


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## likesfish (Jan 19, 2016)

Exactly even groups where being a dick is celebrated men can and do cross the line.
   What the fuck is wrong with you springs to mind.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Maybe it's all in my silly little mind, but it's something I've noticed for years, that red names get more likes. The whole 'please the boss' kind of thing. I have not studied this rigorously


it is in your mind. CRI isn't a mod and leads the way with 81,000 likes. DotCommunist isn't a mod and has nearly 60,000 likes. and i'm not a mod and i have 58,000 likes. editor languishes some way behind us.


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## Santino (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it is in your mind. CRI isn't a mod and leads the way with 81,000 likes. DotCommunist isn't a mod and has nearly 60,000 likes. and i'm not a mod and i have 58,000 likes. editor languishes some way behind us.


 You are confusing noise and signal.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

_


Santino said:



			You are confusing noise and signal.
		
Click to expand...

_it's you who are confused, over a very simple question about the quantity of likes.


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## Santino (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> it's you who are confused, over a very simple question about the quantity of likes.


 The real question is not whether red names get more likes overall, but whether they get more likes than other names would for the same content.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

Santino said:


> The real question is not whether red names get more likes overall, but whether they get more likes than other names would for the same content.


i don't believe they do.


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## frogwoman (Jan 19, 2016)

the fact that i like to have male mates and talk to them about stuff has led to a few misunderstandings over the years  

i get really anxious about it now and there's probably no need


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## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2016)

Another MRA habit is thinking that men who disagree with them on feminism are white knighting and are as cynical as they are, so think that they are just trying to get laid or have women think more favourable towards them
 If doesn't occurr to them that pro-feminist men might be sincere in their beliefs and have come to their position through thinking and listening.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Another MRA habit is thinking that men who disagree with them on feminism are white knighting and are as cynical as they are, so think that they are just trying to get laid or have women think more favourable towards them
> If doesn't occurr to them that pro-feminist men might be sincere in their beliefs and have come to their position through thinking and listening.


tbh it may be that mra don't get laid so frequently at least in part due to their appalling sexism.


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## likesfish (Jan 19, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Another MRA habit is thinking that men who disagree with them on feminism are white knighting and are as cynical as they are, so think that they are just trying to get laid or have women think more favourable towards them
> If doesn't occurr to them that pro-feminist men might be sincere in their beliefs and have come to their position through thinking and listening.




Or may be just arnt would be serial killers?
 wouldnt class my self a profeminist but most mra types arnt even in the worth talking to being nutters although the socialism in danemark defeats pick up artists was a classic


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## likesfish (Jan 19, 2016)

8den said:


> Whats that line about applying to be the village idiot but being over qualified for the role?



Trouble is I thought I was scrapping the barrel unfortunatly teh stupid has gone pot holing


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## Nylock (Jan 19, 2016)

Gromit said:


> Can a man make this same point so that i can reply to it please? Cause i like never reply directly to posts made by trashpony.


Grow up you fucking child.


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## CRI (Jan 19, 2016)

I get likes for all the silly crap I post!


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## CRI (Jan 19, 2016)

CRI said:


> I get likes for all the silly crap I post!


WTF, how did I end up on this shitty thread.  Gah!

edit - I'm fasting from all things political for a while.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

I don't like resorting to "they must have small dicks" or "I bet they never get laid" - no matter how cathartic it might be - because I don't think that ultimately it's very helpful in terms of the atmosphere that could/should be developed in talking about stuff like this. I also don't think it's necessarily that true. I recognise not everyone feels the same way.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't like resorting to "they must have small dicks" or "I bet they never get laid" - no matter how cathartic it might be - because I don't think that ultimately it's very helpful in terms of the atmosphere that could/should be developed in talking about stuff like this. I also don't think it's necessarily that true. I recognise not everyone feels the same way.


what odds have you heard?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

One reason the #notallmen thing was pilloried so much was because it's a redundant statement. When people say 'men do this' or 'men do that' in this context, it's aimed more at structural stuff, and the way that certain behaviours aren't challenged very meaningfully, and in some cases are fortified and bolstered by patriarchy and unseen and unthought-about privileges. It should be reasonably clear that it isn't a statement that all men act in a certain way.

Also, when someone says 'men do x' it's reasonable to assume it's meant that women don't do this, it's men that do. #notallmen is pretty much implied (not least by the fact that sometimes it's men who say 'men do x').

#notallmen gets a rough ride because it's also terribly defensive at a time when we're talking about the shit that women have to go through (#notallwomen ... there are lots of women who have never been raped, but it's okay to say something along the lines of 'women get raped'). It's a way of turning the discussion around to talk about how men have it so bad instead. Not in terms of the real problems men face at the hands of patriarchy and capitalism, but in terms of the problems of not liking to be lumped in with the bad guys - which isn't happening to begin with, not in any meaningful way in the context of an online discussion about sexism and misogyny.

When black people say 'god, white people just...' I don't feel offended. I recognise what is happening, I know why that's being said, and I shut up and let them say it.

I draw a line at doing stuff like 'they must all have small dicks' etc as I said above, because it's not constructive, but in terms of having to preface every discussion with 'I know not all men do this, but...' is tiring and utterly redundant. I understand what ^ was being said about pride and it being difficult, but that's something that should be worked on by those who feel offended and defensive by it, it's not for women to have to alter their language when they're having a discussion about patriarchy and the things they experience so as to put men's feelings front and centre.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2016)

You are so wise, Vintage Paw , that I rely on you to do all my thinking for me.


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> what odds have you heard?


I reckon there's something to this because there's definitely an overlap between men's rights types and the people who pay actual money to attend classes in how to become a PUA (pick up artist) .. by just using these surefire guaranteed seduction tricks etc (won't post a link to any of their heinous websites but there's plenty)


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

bimble said:


> I reckon there's something to this because there's definitely an overlap between men's rights types and the people who pay actual money to attend classes in how to become a PUA (pick up artist) .. by just using these surefire guaranteed seduction tricks etc (won't post a link to any of their heinous websites but there's plenty)



Yeah there's overlap, just as there are plenty of mra types with a string of ex-wives too. Misogynist asswipes come in all shapes and sizes. That's what makes it so hard to deal with - it's everywhere. If sexism was only perpetuated/perpetrated (can't decide which word fits better what I want to express, both really) by shut-ins who've never had sex do you think it'd be so difficult to counter it?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> You are so wise, Vintage Paw , that I rely on you to do all my thinking for me.



My rates are very reasonable, should you require a pre-made position defining for you on a range of subjects.


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yeah there's overlap, just as there are plenty of mra types with a string of ex-wives too.


Yep. Which gets close to the really uncomfortable bit where you have to admit that a lot of women do still find the traditional macho traits of .. being 'powerful', emotionally illiterate, punching people really hard and/or having lots of money (unreconstructed marlboro man / Don Draper type stuff), attractive. And as long as women sit looking pretty on barstools waiting to be chatted up there will be men going to PUA classes. etc.


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## irf520 (Jan 19, 2016)

bimble said:


> Yep. Which gets close to the really uncomfortable bit where you have to admit that a lot of women do still find the traditional macho traits of .. being 'powerful', emotionally illiterate, punching people really hard and/or having lots of money (unreconstructed marlboro man / Don Draper type stuff), attractive. And as long as women sit looking pretty on barstools waiting to be chatted up there will be men going to PUA classes. etc.



Careful! You're getting close to saying the PUAs might be on to something ...


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

But then, there's nothing wrong with wanting to be chatted up. It's like saying women shouldn't wear pink or like doing their nails because it's bad for 'the sisterhood' - what tosh. The problem is the false correlation between certain aesthetic tastes and desires and the idea that it defines what a woman is, that it's somehow essential to their being. Or even that it's particularly 'female.' And that anything deviating from that is not female. And so on.



> And as long as women sit looking pretty on barstools waiting to be chatted up there will be men going to PUA classes. etc.



It's not women's fault when men are dicks.

I guess if women didn't wear short skirts then...


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

I have pink painted toenails! And am entirely disgusted by PUA methodology and thinking.
Nothing at all to do with the performance of 'feminity' in an aesthetic sense.
What I do feel is that we're a bit stuck at the moment still because women generally do _at least feel the need to *pretend* to _play the passive role in such scenarios as the bar stool one.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2016)

That can be true. It's not as simple as saying women should not do that anymore though, because it's tied up in a whole lot of passive/dominant (heteronormative?) behaviours. While I'll happily call out shitheads like C H Sommers for being decidedly anti-feminist, your average woman trying to navigate what society has put in front of her isn't going to be in my cross hairs, the system is. And the men who exploit it.


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## irf520 (Jan 19, 2016)

Part of the reason for the existence of PUAs and related stuff can be found in the tales of woe you can read all over the internet where a guy has behaved like a gentleman and been fucked over (metaphorically but not literally) when he finds out that his girlfriend would rather go with a 'jerk'. Not only that but when he starts acting like a 'jerk' rather than a gentleman, he has more success. Stuff like this:

Biggest red pill you ever had to swallow?

(lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance ... somewhere near the orbit of Jupiter)


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> That can be true. It's not as simple as saying women should not do that anymore though, because it's tied up in a whole lot of passive/dominant (heteronormative?) behaviours.


No, it's not simple at all. It's ancient and deeply ingrained, from Sleeping Beauty fairy tales through to Hollywood rom coms. I think it's changing slowly, it's a work in progress I hope.



Vintage Paw said:


> your average woman trying to navigate what society has put in front of her isn't going to be in my cross hairs, the system is. And the men who exploit it.


Agreed. Was just saying (as an average woman trying to navigate my way through) that I hope we all have a role to play in moving the narrative forward if we can.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 19, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> My rates are very reasonable, should you require a pre-made position defining for you on a range of subjects.


I thought you were going to admonish me for being an entitled man expecting the women to all the legwork for him. See, everyone is cowed by patriarchy


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

irf520 said:


> Part of the reason for the existence of PUAs and related stuff can be found in the tales of woe you can read all over the internet where a guy has behaved like a gentleman and been fucked over (metaphorically but not literally) when he finds out that his girlfriend would rather go with a 'jerk'. Not only that but when he starts acting like a 'jerk' rather than a gentleman, he has more success. Stuff like this:
> 
> Biggest red pill you ever had to swallow?
> 
> (lights blue touch paper and retreats to a safe distance ... somewhere near the orbit of Jupiter)



Yep. I see you out there.
I think you should drop the 'gentleman' word though, try 'decent human being' instead?

This is the same sort of thing but easier to read: The 6 things women really want, from a top ranking PUA.
Basically: Don't listen to her, dominate every conversation, make every decision, never show weakness etc .
6 Universal Attractive Male Qualities Every Woman Looks For In A Man


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## toggle (Jan 19, 2016)

existentialist said:


> I'd been pondering on this overnight. I think that _some_ men still think it's ok to base every interaction with women on the likelihood of them getting laid, and _some _talk openly about that as though it should be considered normal behaviour.
> 
> For those of us who don't think like that - or who, perhaps, think it only about specially selected people and only some of the time - it's a difficult cross to bear: calling a sexist out is no easier as a man than it is as a woman, especially if you don't want to have to deal with all the "pussy-whipped?" nonsense or whatever all the time, but at the same time it's pretty grim being tarred with the same brush as them.
> 
> ...



did i miss the #notallmen thing out? 

i just class the acceptance of that shit talk about women like i'd class all the rest. like the talk about rape. not all blokes are rapists. not all blokes only value women as a place to put their penis. but men who do think of women like that think all men think of women like that. because men don't challenge them for it. and yeah, the responses can be shit. but it needs men to challenge this shit. cause the ones who will listen to women have already got the message. 

but yeah, the male pride, bound up in some unrealistic expectations of masculinity. pushing towards that unrealistic ideal. fucking up their life in the process. because they were always doomed to fail to fit that ideal. and lash out against others. because they are hard done by.

versus the extremely confident and entitled sort. eg. why do rich footballers rape?


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## toggle (Jan 19, 2016)

Orang Utan said:


> Another MRA habit is thinking that men who disagree with them on feminism are white knighting and are as cynical as they are, so think that they are just trying to get laid or have women think more favourable towards them
> If doesn't occurr to them that pro-feminist men might be sincere in their beliefs and have come to their position through thinking and listening.




don't forget bullied or brainwashed....


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

toggle said:


> it needs men to challenge this shit. cause the ones who will listen to women have already got the message.


Just want to say there are some really good ones out there, on the case:
eg) My (male) friend went for an interview for a new job in senior level computer stuff the other day and, whilst in there, asked the CEO of the startup why there are no women engineers in the company and what the plan is to change this. We need more people like him but they do exist.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2016)

bimble said:


> Just want to say there are some really good ones out there, on the case:
> eg) My (male) friend went for an interview for a new job in senior level computer stuff the other day and, whilst in there, asked the CEO of the startup why there are no women engineers in the company and what the plan is to change this. We need more people like him but they do exist.


yeh. did he get the job?


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## bimble (Jan 19, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. did he get the job?


He'll get the job because he's really good at computer stuff. I think.


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## Gromit (Jan 20, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> I don't like resorting to "they must have small dicks" or "I bet they never get laid" - no matter how cathartic it might be - because I don't think that ultimately it's very helpful in terms of the atmosphere that could/should be developed in talking about stuff like this. I also don't think it's necessarily that true. I recognise not everyone feels the same way.





Vintage Paw said:


> I don't like resorting to "they must have small dicks" or "I bet they never get laid" - no matter how cathartic it might be - because I don't think that ultimately it's very helpful in terms of the atmosphere that could/should be developed in talking about stuff like this. I also don't think it's necessarily that true. I recognise not everyone feels the same way.



I commend you for this as many on Urban have no such quibbles and will even get many likes in support.

Yet if i was to suggest Feminists are probably just bitter cause they need a good seeing to or something else in a similar vein (not that i ever would)... well do i really need to continue that sentence.
If i was to say I bet you got tiny tits or something along a similar vein...

Women with small chests are sympathized with if they are unhappy with the situation not mocked. Hell the NHS will even pay for your surgery if you can convince them that you are unhappy enough. 
No body sympathises about small cocks and mocking is encouraged. Double standards again.

Good to see you not following these double standards when many others on here do.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I commend you for this as many on Urban have no such quibbles and will even get many likes in support.
> 
> Yet if i was to suggest Feminists are probably just bitter cause they need a good seeing to or something else in a similar vein (not that i ever would)... well do i really need to continue that sentence.
> If i was to say I bet you got tiny tits or something along a similar vein...
> ...


why don't you take a break from the boards? ten years perhaps...


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## 8den (Jan 20, 2016)

Gromit said:


> I commend you for this as many on Urban have no such quibbles and will even get many likes in support.
> 
> Yet if i was to suggest Feminists are probably just bitter cause they need a good seeing to or something else in a similar vein (not that i ever would)... well do i really need to continue that sentence.
> If i was to say I bet you got tiny tits or something along a similar vein...
> ...



Kudos Gromit, If I wrote that I'd feel the overwhelming urge to punch myself in the face, but you manage to rise above that really understandable urge.


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## trashpony (Jan 20, 2016)

I've never seen a post by a woman taking about small dicks and not getting laid on urban. It doesn't sound like the sort of thing that most feminists I know would do.

Got any examples?


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## scifisam (Jan 20, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I've never seen a post by a woman taking about small dicks and not getting laid on urban. It doesn't sound like the sort of thing that most feminists I know would do.
> 
> Got any examples?


Yep - I bet the few times it's happened have been male posters.


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## equationgirl (Jan 20, 2016)

trashpony said:


> I've never seen a post by a woman taking about small dicks and not getting laid on urban. It doesn't sound like the sort of thing that most feminists I know would do.
> 
> Got any examples?


I think I (a number of years ago) recounted an experience where during sex a man started apologising for his perceived inadequacy. But I don't think that's quite what you mean...


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2016)

There's some on this thread.

Edit: sorry, just the one on this thread, and it is by a man. I see it here and there on various threads. It's usually said in jest, not with real menace that I can see. I don't see how it's any better coming from a man when the point is the same. It's just not a very useful tactic, when you're trying to encourage a nuanced view of masculinity only to turn around and say it's because they've not managed to get laid (or words to that effect).

Anyway, I've made my point about that, no reason for me to harp on about it.


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## trashpony (Jan 20, 2016)

No, it's a really crap tactic. Which is presumably why women don't use it so you can't really throw it back.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 21, 2016)

I can't say I've been keeping a tally of whether women on urban say those things or not, perhaps I should start  Nevertheless, it certainly _is_ said by women - self-identifying feminists - online and not. I've heard it said plenty of times over my lifetime, and certainly it's been said umpteen times since gamergate and the uptick in mra bullshit began. Maybe you just hang around with the cool kids


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 21, 2016)

Just for you, next time I see it I'll bookmark it


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## stethoscope (Jan 21, 2016)

Has @MarkyMarrk run away from this thread, having realised he's been out MarkyMarrked by Gromit?


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## MarkyMarrk (Jan 21, 2016)

stethoscope said:


> Has @MarkyMarrk run away from this thread, having realised he's been out MarkyMarrked by Gromit?


I don't really understand his position, ao can't really support or argue with him.

So I've nothing to say really.

I still think it's a super article.


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## likesfish (Jan 22, 2016)

Its because mra is niether subtle or nuanced let alone sane.
 "Its I should have the right to a harem of co-ed virginal cheer leaders as my fuck toys" 
Women should be slient unless its moaning in pleasure at my enormous cock ( tbf their is an enormous cock involved).


Women have no rights voice or any view and should be virgins until tge mraist decides to pleasure them ( luck them" 

Brett ellis eastwood did it better in american psycho


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 22, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Brett ellis eastwood



lol

Freudian bringing Clint Eastwood's machismo into the equation?

It's Brett Easton Ellis.


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## likesfish (Jan 23, 2016)

Fucking intelligence nazis they are everywhere triggering me with their common sense, logic, and knowledge


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## existentialist (Jan 23, 2016)

likesfish said:


> Fucking intelligence nazis they are everywhere triggering me with their common sense, logic, and knowledge


I got accused once online of "bullying [someone] with my intellect". Which was completely  on about 3 different counts...


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## likesfish (Jan 23, 2016)

See see he admits it the triggering bastard just you wait the tumblr hate mobs will rush to my defence if I actually knew how to work tumblr.

Although as your not drawing thin picturesof kids cartoon characters they probably wouldnt try to kill you


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## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2016)

likesfish said:


> See see he admits it the triggering bastard just you wait the tumblr hate mobs will rush to my defence if I actually knew how to work tumblr.
> 
> Although as your not drawing thin picturesof kids cartoon characters they probably wouldnt try to kill you


the tumblr hate mobs hate you for your tumblr inability


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## likesfish (Jan 23, 2016)

I know 
 Will nobody defend the stupid white male


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## existentialist (Jan 23, 2016)

likesfish said:


> I know
> Will nobody defend the stupid white male


I think it's generally accepted that the stupid white male is perfectly capable of defending himself. With, if necessary, passive-aggressive whines about being bullied, marginalised, or oppressed by feminists


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2016)

And failing that, violence.


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## likesfish (Jan 23, 2016)

Vintage Paw said:


> And failing that, violence.


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## likesfish (Jan 23, 2016)

I know I shall get a milita together  take over a shed in the middle of nowhere or hull 
 Until my demands are met


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2016)

Just remember to pack the essentials!


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## toggle (Jan 24, 2016)

surely tehre's easier ways to enlarge your dildo collection


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## Nylock (Jan 24, 2016)

there's easier, but i guarantee you there's none cheaper


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## Nylock (Jan 24, 2016)

Plus if you are a bulk lube user, you get free barrel-loads delivered right to your compound! It's basically a win-win situation


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## Orang Utan (Jan 25, 2016)




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