# Manchester Arena incident - many reported dead



## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Reports of ‘explosions’ or ‘gun shots’ at Manchester Arena tonight during Ariana Grande concert in Manchester, emergency services attending - any details yet?

ETA: to emphasise the as-yet-unconfirmed nature of the initial reports, have placed inverted commas above.


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## ruffneck23 (May 22, 2017)

link ? cant find anything, not doubting you tho , just on lbc 

Two loud bangs heard at Manchester Arena described as 'explosions'


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

GMP holding statement asking people to stay away from the Arena:


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> link ? cant find anything, not doubting you tho


ATM it's all Twitter chatter and OMG and emoji overload and whatnot so far, apart from a couple of one-line news flashes, eg:

Emergency services rush to Manchester Arena | Daily Mail Online


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## ruffneck23 (May 22, 2017)

not that i really want to like it


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## mwgdrwg (May 22, 2017)

All over Twitter, explosions or gunfire at Ariana Grande concert.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

So far the most definitive thing seems to be that there were ‘two loud bangs’.

Two loud bangs heard at Manchester Arena described as 'explosions'


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## MrSki (May 22, 2017)

According to eyewitness on 5 Live it was a shooting but that is second hand information as in she was told by passers by.


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## Fingers (May 22, 2017)

Seen a photo on Twitter that does not look very nice but it may well be a troll on twitter or not what it is supposed to purport. Lets hope so.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Not seen anything so far from anyone claiming to have definitely seen exactly what happened first-hand - though plenty of people describing running away in fear.

(Interestingly the only person I have so far seen claiming that it has been ‘confirmed’ as the _worst case scenario_ posted it to Gab, the alt-right associated social media platform  )


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## mauvais (May 22, 2017)

We've just been through there and there were cars parked literally everywhere. Bit odd but just figured something big was on. Lots of talk about two explosions.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Sky:

Reports of 'explosion' at Manchester Arena


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Fingers said:


> Seen a photo on Twitter that does not look very nice but it may well be a troll on twitter or not what it is supposed to purport. Lets hope so.


A couple of people (well, probably more than that by now) have posted a picture without any context, only a hashtag, in somewhat dubious circumstances; currently getting serious drubbing from others saying it's not Manchester Arena etc.


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## mauvais (May 22, 2017)

It is a picture from somewhere in Manchester - the Metrolink text & logo. Couldn't tell you where or when though.


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## T & P (May 22, 2017)

Video seems to show people panicking and evacuating the venue but no obvious cause

Two loud bangs heard at Manchester Arena described as 'explosions'


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

mauvais said:


> It is a picture from somewhere in Manchester - the Metrolink text & logo. Couldn't tell you where or when though.


I've never even been to Manchester so am in no position to argue either way. But p8 of this Arena accessibility brochure indicates that it could be the ‘City Room’ exit shown at bottom left of the map.

https://www.manchester-arena.com/downloads/accessibility_information.pdf


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

> Stop tweeting false news on what happened at Manchester arena until Ariana her crew or the police confirm it


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## mauvais (May 22, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> I've never even been to Manchester so am in no position to argue either way. But p8 of this Arena accessibility brochure indicates that it could be the ‘City Room’ exit shown at bottom left of the map.
> 
> https://www.manchester-arena.com/downloads/accessibility_information.pdf


Yeah it probably is there. But the arena has been around since the 90s so it could be a photo from long ago. I dunno, on balance it probably is from there and tonight but still doesn't tell you very much.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

mauvais said:


> Yeah it probably is there. But the arena has been around since the 90s so it could be a photo from long ago. I dunno, on balance it probably is from there and tonight but still doesn't tell you very much.


True enough - without any context, explanation or provenance, it serves only to freak people out and/or make them angry.


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## Fingers (May 22, 2017)

GMP Tweet it is a serious incident :-(


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Juice from the street from _Corrie_'s Hayley:


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## agricola (May 22, 2017)

Fingers said:


> GMP Tweet it is a serious incident :-(



TBF it would be anyway, if you had a panicked and unplanned evacuation of an arena like that.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

_Telegraph_ piece has useful breaking news timeline/liveblog:

Manchester Arena: large police presence after reports of explosion


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## Dogsauce (May 22, 2017)

Apparently an image is being circulated that was taken from a training exercise some years ago. I don't understand people.


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## Apathy (May 22, 2017)

Greater Manchester police statement:

Emergency services are currently responding to reports of an explosion at Manchester Arena.

There are a number of confirmed fatalities and others injured.

Please AVOID the area as first responders work tirelessly at the scene.

Details of a casualty bureau will follow as soon as available.


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## beesonthewhatnow (May 22, 2017)

Fuck


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## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Juice from the street from _Corrie_'s Hayley:




Love Julie


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## The39thStep (May 22, 2017)

There's a video (taken a fair bit away) which shows a flash and you can hear a loud bang ) which seems genuine enough .


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## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2017)

Apathy said:


> Greater Manchester police statement:
> 
> Emergency services are currently responding to reports of an explosion at Manchester Arena.
> 
> ...



LINK???


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## TheHoodedClaw (May 22, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> LINK???


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

PA reiterating GMP statement about fatalities:


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## redsquirrel (May 22, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> LINK???


It's on the guardian feed


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## binka (May 22, 2017)

Fucking hell I was really hoping it was just a burst balloon as a few people had reported. Eye witness on bbc news now saying it was a huge explosion and he saw loads of injured people


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## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> It's on the guardian feed



i have numerous now....just expected a link for what was posted.


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## DaveCinzano (May 22, 2017)

Again, GMP says details of casualty bureau to come:


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## Fingers (May 23, 2017)

Is this plausible?


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## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

Surely a blown transformer wouldn't kill several people. So many kids would be there. This is awful.


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## Reiabuzz (May 23, 2017)

binka said:


> Fucking hell I was really hoping it was just a burst balloon as a few people had reported. Eye witness on bbc news now saying it was a huge explosion and he saw loads of injured people



Why would someone 'like' this post? I've got that poster on ignore but unfortunately that doesn't seem to block their likes and dislikes.

This is fucking awful, terrorism or not.


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## peterkro (May 23, 2017)

Transformer unlikely inside roof or  building like that, be surprised if multiple fatalities even if one did blow up (unlikely).


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## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

Owen Jones just Tweeted this :

Manchester. The city of the industrial revolution, of iconic music, of solidarity, warmth and community. Manchester will always overcome.


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## redsquirrel (May 23, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Why would someone 'like' this post? I've got that poster on ignore but unfortunately that doesn't seem to block their likes and dislikes.
> 
> This is fucking awful, terrorism or not.


Don't be a dick, clearly they were liking the 'hoping it was noting serious' bit not the 'people dead' bit.


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## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

Fingers said:


> Is this plausible?



It could be a police cover story similar to that used when they had bombs on the tube - I think they originally reported that as a power failure so as not to cause public panic.


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## Saul Goodman (May 23, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Surely a blown transformer wouldn't kill several people.


No, but a resulting stampede might.


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## agricola (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It could be a police cover story similar to that used when they had bombs on the tube - I think they originally reported that as a power failure so as not to cause public panic.



from memory that wasn't a cover story, that was actually how those incidents first came to light (at that time none of the radios worked in the Underground and no-one had a phone signal)


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## OneStrike (May 23, 2017)

Please exercise caution when taking media footage as legit, already bogus stuff being posted as factual.


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## Pac man (May 23, 2017)

Baloons filled with gas evidently

Patrick (Pa) Ward (@Pa_Ward1) on Twitter


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## pesh (May 23, 2017)

i dont think so


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## free spirit (May 23, 2017)

Fingers said:


> Is this plausible?  View attachment 107434



It's certainly possible


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

binka said:


> Fucking hell I was really hoping it was just a burst balloon as a few people had reported. Eye witness on bbc news now saying it was a huge explosion and he saw loads of injured people



We heard the explosion nearly a mile away it wasnt a ballon.


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## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It could be a police cover story similar to that used when they had bombs on the tube - I think they originally reported that as a power failure so as not to cause public panic.



Good grief


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## Saul Goodman (May 23, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Baloons filled with gas evidently
> 
> Patrick (Pa) Ward (@Pa_Ward1) on Twitter


Helium is inert, and I reckon people learned a few lessons about hydrogen after the Hinderberg.


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## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

Fuck.


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## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

Tweet storm saying NBC in America are reporting 28 dead, Fox news 20 dead and caused by balloons exploding into microphones and Tommy Robinson asking if the ( fake)  picture circulating  is Victoria Station. Must be distressing for parents who have kids at this concert .


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## Riklet (May 23, 2017)

Fucking hell.  Stay safe Manchester peeps.

Is there any confirmation yet as to whether this "bang" was a bomb or similar?


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## Celyn (May 23, 2017)

Several tweets advising parents looking for their kids to try the Holiday Inn, as it has got >= 50 kids safe there.


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## spanglechick (May 23, 2017)

Fuck.  Hope it was a dreadful accident, rather than terror.  Not that it matters a jot to the victims and loved ones, but the knock on effects...


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Riklet said:


> Fucking hell.  Stay safe Manchester peeps.
> 
> Is there any confirmation yet as to whether this "bang" was a bomb or similar?



No confirmation mate but we heard the bang nearly a mile away. It don't seem like a ballon as some reports say.


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## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

Riklet said:


> Is there any confirmation yet as to whether this "bang" was a bomb or similar?



Not at the time of posting, no, not officially.


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Also if anyone is in Manchester stuck because of this then give me a shout and you can stay at mine in central Manchester. Just pm me, not going to be sleeping. Hope everyone's safe. X


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 23, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> caused by balloons exploding into microphones



How's that work then?


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## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

I cannot understand how they would use balloons filled with explosive and flammable gas. There's no way this is true


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## binka (May 23, 2017)

Grace Johnson said:


> No confirmation mate but we heard the bang nearly a mile away. It don't seem like a ballon as some reports say.


They were the very very early reports, there was a video from inside the arena of someone on stage telling the crowd everything is ok, don't worry and walk out calmly. Obviously it makes sense to say that whatever has happened - another eye witness on bbc news said someone shouted it's a bomb which caused panic and a stampede


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## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How's that work then?



I think the basllon things is someone speculating the balloons popped near a microphone, the sound was amplified and sounded like explosions - causing a stampede. Not sure how plausible that is. Fucking Grim news whatever caused it.


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## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> Fuck.  Hope it was a dreadful accident, rather than terror.  Not that it matters a jot to the victims and loved ones, but the knock on effects...


Aye, all of that.


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

binka said:


> They were the very very early reports, there was a video from inside the arena of someone on stage telling the crowd everything is ok, don't worry and walk out calmly. Obviously it makes sense to say that whatever has happened - another eye witness on bbc news said someone shouted it's a bomb which caused panic and a stampede



Yeah for sure. The most important thing in incidents like this is to keep the crowd calm even if there is active explosions happening at the moment, because sadly of the crowd panics it can make things so much worse.


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## editor (May 23, 2017)

Still reporting the line " a number of confirmed deaths."


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## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> I think the basllon things is someone speculating the balloons popped near a microphone, the sound was amplified and sounded like explosions - causing a stampede. Not sure how plausible that is. Fucking Grim news whatever caused it.



There's footage of a flash from an event outside the arena.


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## RD2003 (May 23, 2017)

Unconfirmed reports now that Oldham hospital (about 6-7 miles up the road) in lockdown after gunshots heard.

May not be connected, of course.


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## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

Just read a very unconfirmed report on twitter that NHS staff are reporting it was a nail bomb. I really hope this isn't true


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## gawkrodger (May 23, 2017)

as that's from a Sun journo I wouldn't be taking too much heed of it


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## 8115 (May 23, 2017)

.


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## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

Police reporting it as possible terrorist attack now.
This is a bad one. Kids and teens on a night out. Pure evil


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## editor (May 23, 2017)




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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Unconfirmed reports now that Oldham hospital (about 6-7 miles up the road) in lockdown after gunshots heard.
> 
> May not be connected, of course.



I'm getting reports from friends who live locally that say the same but could quite easily be bollocks st this point. Lot of fear and confusion around here at the moment.


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## editor (May 23, 2017)

19 people dead. This is awful.


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## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Just read a very unconfirmed report on twitter that NHS staff are reporting it was a nail bomb. I really hope this isn't true


 I've just seen this on the mirror site which - mentioning debris - suggests not a nail bomb.  However whatever it is, whoever caused it, it's something horrible. I'm from Greater Manchester rather than Manchester itself, but this still feels painfully like 'home'. 


> ITV News reporter Michael Worrell - who lives near the Arena and rushed to the scene after hearing the explosion - said he has spoken to people leaving the scene who claimed debris had fallen on them.


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Fuck this is horrible. I can hear the sirens and I don't know what I can do to help.


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## discokermit (May 23, 2017)

feller on bbc news said he got blown over by the blast. lots of fatalaties he reckoned. police saying nineteen dead. fifty injured.


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## xenon (May 23, 2017)

Reporter on LBC saying 19 dead.  Around 50 injured.


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## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

NWCTU (the regional Counter Terrorist Unit) now reported as stating it is a ‘possible terrorist attack’.

Manchester Arena: police confirm 19 dead after explosion at Ariana Grande concert – latest updates


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## OneStrike (May 23, 2017)

Fuck.  Don't have the words. At least 19 dead.


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## Riklet (May 23, 2017)

Definitely a bomb, come on.

What else could blow up at a pop concert killing 19 people and injuring at least 50?

Utterly shocking and awful.


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## gawkrodger (May 23, 2017)

Well the Arena have just put out a statement saying the incident took place outside the venue in a public space which must make a bomb the most likely event


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## Vintage Paw (May 23, 2017)




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## xenon (May 23, 2017)

Second suspect device found nearby. Controlled explosion going to be carried out


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

bastrds have hit what we find powerful - dancing and drinking. Missed. Try again, twats.


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## Chairman Meow (May 23, 2017)

This is just horrific!


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

at 1:38 
the news is 19 dead


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Just been another massive bang. Controlled explosion according to BBC.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Yep, strongly appears as if a second device was found.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

This is real 19 dead. Nothing mods can do.


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## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

fucking nihilistic murdering shit cunts.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

cunts


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

how many lives have you ruined you dicks


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## twentythreedom (May 23, 2017)

Place was absolutely packed with kids and family by the sound of it. Horrific beyond words


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## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

Fucking numb. Utter utter cunts.


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## DotCommunist (May 23, 2017)

I've been wondering if anyone could try a hit outside fortress london. And so they have. What a fucking shit thing to do. And for what...its just shit


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Yep, strongly appears as if a second device was found.



Not a device apparently. Just discarded clothes. Exploded it as a precaution.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Grace Johnson said:


> Not a device apparently. Just discarded clothes. Exploded it as a precaution.



Thanks.


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## Pac man (May 23, 2017)

After the shitfuck day that May has had, it will be strong on terror now..what timing, cunts alright.

RIP


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## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

The Twitter feed is really sad - lots of tweets by family and friends with photos of kids that went to the show that haven't been heard from since. It's inevitable that some of them will have been killed. Fucking awful.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

Pac man said:


> After the shitfuck day that May has had, it will be strong on terror now..what timing, cunts alright.
> 
> RIP


that's the maign thing. prick


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## PursuedByBears (May 23, 2017)

Fuckers. I was there this time yesterday. Cold shadow of death now, brrr


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## paolo (May 23, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I've been wondering if anyone could try a hit outside fortress london. And so they have. What a fucking shit thing to do. And for what...its just shit



I've been wondering the same for awhile. We're such an obvious target, we get better protection. Which leaves other places, other events, as an option.

This is grim.


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## paolo (May 23, 2017)

From the mobile phone clip I've just seen, posted by CNN, looks like the audience were mainly youngsters.


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## PursuedByBears (May 23, 2017)

Fuckers.


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## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

paolo said:


> From the mobile phone clip I've just seen, posted by CNN, looks like the audience were mainly youngsters.


Guy on the news just saying his 12 year old who was there is inconsolable. I'm guessing teens is the average age of arianas following.


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## spring-peeper (May 23, 2017)

facebook 



didn't take long


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

don't let them wine - mix it up - the dicks


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## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

paolo said:


> From the mobile phone clip I've just seen, posted by CNN, looks like the audience were mainly youngsters.



It was an Ariana Grande gig, of course it was youngsters. She's super talented, but the demographic is very much kids inside, parents waiting outside, both anxious about first gig.


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## paolo (May 23, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> It was an Ariana Grande gig, of course it was youngsters. She's super talented, but the demographic is very much kids inside, parents waiting outside, both anxious about first gig.



I'll admit I don't know the artist.

From what you describe, this sounds particularly sad.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

So as far as we know: 19 dead; 50 injured


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## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Some of the eyewitness accounts now being properly taken would appear to clarify some of the initial claims and confusion:

Manchester Arena: police confirm 19 dead after explosion at Ariana Grande concert – latest updates


> One 16-year-old boy says he and his two friends had come from Lincoln for this evening’s show. They were sat next to the stage when they heard explosions as the performance came to an end. “A lot of people are saying that there were two explosions, but we all heard three,” he says.
> 
> “*It sounded like a gun shot. At first we thought it as a balloon*, but then we felt the vibrations and stuff so we realised it wasn’t a balloon. Our parents heard the explosion from [their] hotel.”
> 
> A 15-year-old girl tells the Guardian: “There were people falling over the chairs trying to get away and when we were running out we saw blood up the walls.”



Manchester Arena: police confirm 19 dead after explosion at Ariana Grande concert – latest updates


> Semino’s 17-year-old daughter Natalie and her friends said the performance had just come to an end when the explosion went off. “It went off and then there was a moment’s silence and then there were screams,” says Megan Ryder, 19. *They say security guards initially tried to calm them down, saying it was a popped balloon or a technical difficulty.*


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## paolo (May 23, 2017)

Calamity1971 said:


> I'm guessing teens is the average age of arianas following.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

don't be a dick on thread. bye


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## paolo (May 23, 2017)

"Semino’s 17-year-old daughter Natalie and her friends said the performance had just come to an end when the explosion went off. “It went off and then there was a moment’s silence and then there were screams,” says Megan Ryder, 19. They say security guards initially tried to calm them down, saying it was a popped balloon or a technical difficulty."

I can understand security giving this initial response. Stampedes are deadly on their own. Definitely better that security work through facts first.


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## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

I feel lucky to have lived in a generation without this fear. What a start to adult life for these kids. I can't begin to imagine?


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## Pac man (May 23, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> that's the maign thing. prick



The main thing was cunts and RIP

twat.


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## editor (May 23, 2017)

Manchester responds 








#roomformanchester - Twitter Search


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## Rimbaud (May 23, 2017)

Jesus... 

What sort of cunts target kids having a good time like this? Pure evil, I can't understand how anyone can justify this to themselves.


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## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

Pac man said:


> The main thing was cunts and RIP
> 
> twat.


i'll deal with this when i give a fuck


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## Pac man (May 23, 2017)

Youve been reportd for being an utter cunt.


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## editor (May 23, 2017)

Maybe right now - while this news is raw and there's likely to be more bad news in store - isn't the time for posters to be throwing insults around at each other. Please stop.


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## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

paolo said:


> I'll admit I don't know the artist.



She's talented, she's funny, she needs to wear her contacts, her demographic is still young


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## editor (May 23, 2017)

More updates here: 19 dead, 50 injured in terror attack at Manchester Arena - live updates


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## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

Let's not start a feud on who is a dick or a cunt on a thread where children have died. Not appropriate or relevant at this time is it really?


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## PursuedByBears (May 23, 2017)

Calamity1971 said:


> Let's not start a feud on who is a dick or a cunt on a thread where children have died. Not appropriate or relevant at this time is it really?


No, that usually happens on page 6 or so.

19 people killed, 60 people injured.

Utter cunts.


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## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

Thanks PursuedByBears I'm relatively new,  I will bear that in mind for future.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

I live 2km from Mcr Vic but aside from having more Manc stuff and people in my feeds than average I'm as clueless as anyone. As far as I know I know no one caught up directly in this but it's still sickening and sure to have a profound effect on everyone in the city for a long time to come. how those directly effected will cope...I have no idea, can only hope for the best...it's too awful and upsetting even for those of us on the relative periphery. But the wonderful and resilient people of this city can and will get through this.

Separately, this has been going around, I hope it's still appropriate. The immediate fog sometimes starts to clear after a few hours but it's generally applicable stuff for occurrences that are horrifically too common.


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## farmerbarleymow (May 23, 2017)

Awful to wake up to this news - poor kids killed and injured in this.  

Inevitable that this would happen at some point, especially a soft target like this.


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I live 2km from Mcr Vic but aside from having more Manc stuff and people in my feeds than average I'm as clueless as anyone. As far as I know I know no one caught up directly in this but it's still sickening and sure to have a profound effect on everyone in the city for a long time to come. how those directly effected will cope...I have no idea, can only hope for the best...it's too awful and upsetting even for those of us on the relative periphery. But the wonderful and resilient people of this city can and will get through this.
> 
> Separately, this has been going around, I hope it's still appropriate. The immediate fog sometimes starts to clear after a few hours but it's generally applicable stuff for occurrences that are horrifically too common.



Great post. It's important to stay calm when things are going a bit mad like this. 

I'm not far away either about a mile or so. So tonight has been quite disturbing. Have been thinking of ways to help but all I can come up with at the moment is donating blood so off to do that first thing. Hopefully as more becomes clear over the next day or two there will be more practical things I can do.

Going to be a strange city in the morning that's for sure. Hope you're ok?


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## Dandred (May 23, 2017)

*Police said they believe a suicide bomber may have been responsible for the deadly incident in Manchester that left at least 19 people, according to US officials reportedly briefed on what happened.*

'Suicide bomber suspected' after 19 people die at Ariana Grande concert


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## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Grace Johnson said:


> Great post. It's important to stay calm when things are going a bit mad like this.
> 
> I'm not far away either about a mile or so. So tonight has been quite disturbing. Have been thinking of ways to help but all I can come up with at the moment is donating blood so off to do that first thing. Hopefully as more becomes clear over the next day or two there will be more practical things I can do.
> 
> Going to be a strange city in the morning that's for sure. Hope you're ok?



I'm as ok as can be expected. I do some work supporting people with depression and anxiety, so that's going to be challenging. Hope you are ok too, yes it's going to be a very difficult time for some time to come.


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## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I'm as ok as can be expected. I do some work supporting people with depression and anxiety, so that's going to be challenging. Hope you are ok too, yes it's going to be a very difficult time for some time to come.




I hope your work goes ok over the coming days and weeks. Yeah can see that being difficult. Bit worried about all the rough sleepers in the city centre, this must be horrific for them. I was so thankful for my home this evening.

I am ok but shook up. See how things go tomorrow I suppose but I will probably have a lot of anxiety over the coming days. Can deal with that though, just going to find some way to put some positive energy into the city innit. Peace and love mate.


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## farmerbarleymow (May 23, 2017)

Helicopter circling over the city centre, and I can't see any British Transport Police on the concourse at Manchester Piccadilly which is unusual.


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## J Ed (May 23, 2017)

Beyond terrible, it's going to be mostly kids isn't it


----------



## William of Walworth (May 23, 2017)

Only just found out about this appalling news


----------



## Mr.Bishie (May 23, 2017)

Sad news to wake up to


----------



## Glitter (May 23, 2017)

I'm gutted. Really gutted. 

I'm abroad at the moment and trying to make sure my family and mates are ok. My mates are mostly the wrong demographic but enough of them have kids of the right age. 

I've got/had tickets for plenty of gigs there over the years. Sobering to think how quickly things can go from ecstatic to tragic, on such a large scale, in seconds thanks to the actions of some fucking cunts.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 23, 2017)

Targeting kids.  For fucks sake.


----------



## Ming (May 23, 2017)

The last gig I saw in the U.K. Before I emigrated was at the MEN. Been there loads of times. The fact they chose a gig full of teenagers and kids is particularly disgusting. Don't know what to say other than that.


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2017)

Unspeakably wicked cunts to deliberately target kids. Let's hope we can respond with solidarity rather than the division the perpetrators want.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 23, 2017)

Horrific news. Just horrific.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Emergency telephone number put out by GMP for people concerned about their loved ones:

0161 856 9400

EDITED TUES 23/5/17:

NEW casualty bureau number from police. Please use 0800 096 0095 from now on, other numbers no longer in use.

Source: GMP, _MEN_


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Fuck.

What a vile attack.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 23, 2017)

.....this is awful...


----------



## extra dry (May 23, 2017)

Awful news. I hope they catch the group/person behind it.


----------



## Ms T (May 23, 2017)

Shocking. What utter, utter murdering cunts.


----------



## emanymton (May 23, 2017)

A few bits and peices from listening to Today this morning. And a bit of rampant speculation.

Death toll still at 19

American intelligence have said it was a suicide bombing, but British police have not confirmed.

Witness saying the explosion was in a foyer area, and everyone was searched going in.

So it sounds like someone waiting outside for people to leave. 

It sounds like the entrance above the performs in Manchester Victoria, near where there was a McDonald's. If it was then this is where all the fire exits where kept locked until I reported the fuckers.


----------



## chandlerp (May 23, 2017)

22 confirmed dead now.   Attacker died at the scene.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 23, 2017)

Sky news now says 22 confirmed dead.   Fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

emanymton said:


> A few bits and peices from listening to Today this morning. And a bit of rampant speculation.
> 
> Death toll still at 19
> 
> ...


I hear the police reporting they'll be locking the stable door by patrolling all over Manchester today.


----------



## emanymton (May 23, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> Sky news now says 22 confirmed dead.   Fuck.


BBC still says 19?
Fuck they just updated it to 22.


----------



## stethoscope (May 23, 2017)

Didn't expect to wake up to this news this morning


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> Sky news now says 22 confirmed dead.   Fuck.


Much fewer than might have been if dead bomber had had a friend or two: small comfort tho.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

emanymton said:


> BBC still says 19?


They just said 22 on r4


----------



## crossthebreeze (May 23, 2017)

Fucking hell, went to bed early last night and haven't turned the tv or radio on yet, so just found out from here.  Horrific, awful news.  Targetting kids ffs.


----------



## stethoscope (May 23, 2017)

22 dead, 59 injured reported on Beeb News. Fucks sake.


----------



## Ms T (May 23, 2017)

Bomber also dead apparently.


----------



## emanymton (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> They just said 22 on r4


Yes just heard, was hoping Sky were wrong.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 23, 2017)

Shit news. 

Seems fairly consistent with the sort of stuff we've been seeing over the last couple of years Europe-wide.

Odds on this being yet another example of why turning Iraq and Syria into Disneyland for wanna be jihadis wasn't such a great idea.


----------



## Throbbing Angel (May 23, 2017)

crossthebreeze said:


> Fucking hell, went to bed early last night and haven't turned the tv or radio on yet, so just found out from here.  Horrific, awful news.  Targetting kids ffs.



Same here, ffs.  Terrible news.


----------



## eatmorecheese (May 23, 2017)

Slaughtering children. The senseless, murdering cunts.


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> 22 dead, 59 injured reported on Beeb News. Fucks sake.




What an awful thing to wake up to.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Statement by GMP Chief Constable Ian Hopkins:

Manchester Arena: children among 22 dead in suicide attack at Ariana Grande concert – latest updates

This has been the most horrific incident we have had to face in Greater Manchester and one that we all hoped we would never see.

Families and many young people were out to enjoy a concert at the Manchester Arena and have lost their lives. Our thoughts are with those 22 victims that we now know have died, the 59 people who have been injured and their loved ones. We continue to do all we can to support them. They are being treated at eight hospitals across Greater Manchester.

This is a fast-moving investigation and we have significant resources deployed to both the investigation and the visible patrols that people will see across Greater Manchester as they wake up to news of the events last night. This will include armed officers as people would expect. More than 400 officers have been involved in the operation during the night.

To remind you, we were called at 10.33pm to reports of an explosion at the Manchester Arena at the conclusion of an Ariana Grande concert. More than 250 calls came in and emergency services were very quickly on scene. Emergency numbers have been established for anyone who is concerned for loved ones who may not have returned home: 0161 856 9400 or 0161 856 9900.**SEE BELOW**

We have been treating this as a terrorist incident and we believe that while the attack last night was conducted by one man, the priority is to establish whether he was acting alone or as part of a network.

The attacker, I can confirm, died at the arena. We believe the attacker was carrying an improvised explosive device, which he detonated, causing this atrocity.

We would ask people not to speculate on his details or to share names. There is a complex and wide-ranging investigation under way.

Our priority is to work with the national counter-terrorist policing network and UK intelligence services to establish more details about the individual who carried out this attack.​
EDITED TUES 23/5/17:

NEW casualty bureau number from police. Please use 0800 096 0095 from now on, other numbers no longer in use.

Source: GMP, _MEN_


----------



## danny la rouge (May 23, 2017)

It's heartbreaking looking at twitter this morning. I'm seeing desperate tweets of people looking for missing children. It's overwhelming.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Full statement from GMP's Hopkins:


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Just woke up to this news and I need to go to work in town now, if that's possible. I texted my mum last night  after reports of two loud bangs because she can see the arena from her flat, but she hadn't heard anything - last thing she said was "Well, let's hope we wake up in the morning and there's a simple explanation".

I said" Don't worry mum, it'll be balloons or something". 

If only. 

I'm thinking of all those poor people caught up in it, and I'm worried I could have lost some friends. What a bastard.


----------



## Celyn (May 23, 2017)

Oh heck. Haven't looked at Twitter yet. It was full of those last night and by now anyone still missing someone is going to be even more worried. Well, "worried" is not the word, but ... 

And indeed they all seemed to be children or very young teenagers.


----------



## rekil (May 23, 2017)

Lots of freaks posting fake photos and jokes on twitter sadly. It's next to useless - full of fucking awful fucking cunts.


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

Glastonbury is going to be... Interesting.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> It's heartbreaking looking at twitter this morning. I'm seeing desperate tweets of people looking for missing children. It's overwhelming.



Yeah that was brutal. There has also been great posts though, 100s of people offering up there spare rooms and lifts for anyone who needed them. City centre businesses opening there doors to people and coming onto the streets giving people food and water. The taxis stayed on all night from all over the city trying to get people home and taking no payment. That's what I'm trying to focus on now.


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

Always look for the helpers ... when bad things happen always look for the people helping, because they will be there.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

I think I'm going to be scared when sirens start from now on. That's how I knew something horrible had happened. Like I live in Manchester centre I'm used to sirens but they just didn't stop.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

eatmorecheese said:


> Slaughtering children. The senseless, murdering cunts.


Sadly nothing senseless about it. This was done to provoke a reaction and as the murder of lee rigby showed there will always be people up for responding.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

copliker said:


> Lots of freaks posting fake photos and jokes on twitter sadly. It's next to useless - full of fucking awful fucking cunts.



Buzzfeed rundown on some of the false rumours so far:

This Is Some Of The Fake News Circulating About The Manchester Arena Blast


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I hear the police reporting they'll be locking the stable door by patrolling all over Manchester today.



To be fair to them, that's probably a sensible precaution (although there are obviously PR reasons too)

Think about how Brevik used a bomb to get all the cops running to one place then did his shootings in another.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 23, 2017)

copliker said:


> Lots of freaks posting fake photos and jokes on twitter sadly. It's next to useless - full of fucking awful fucking cunts.



This was posted on twitter hours before the attack and picked up by 'civilians' who monitor these nutjobs. Glad the security services also monitor them as closely.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

also If anyone's in Manchester and has spare time please try and donate blood over the next day or two esp if you have any O type blood as this is especially important with trauma patients. 

This is where I will be going later but there are other places to donate that are listed on the site too. 

Manchester Norfolk House Blood Donor Centre


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> To be fair to them, that's probably a sensible precaution (although there are obviously PR reasons too)
> 
> Think about how Brevik used a bomb to get all the cops running to one place then did his shootings in another.


This is more 7/7/06 than investigation or precaution. They call it reassurance policing, I call it a ludicrous waste of time and money.


----------



## JTG (May 23, 2017)

Awful to wake up to.

Two nights ago I was watching Iron Maiden in Birmingham. Bruce giving his usual speech about not giving a shit what race, creed, colour or religion you are when you come to a show. Talking about being able to switch off the outside world and the lunatics therein for a couple of hours spent with friends and like minded people having a good time. That's why they do it, that's why we do it.

Gearing up for a summer of working big shows now, first one on Saturday. This is going to be interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> This was posted on twitter hours before the attack and picked up by 'civilians' who monitor these nutjobs. Glad the security services also monitor them as closely.


Sarcasm. The lowest form of wit. Doesn't suit you.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> This was posted on twitter hours before the attack and picked up by 'civilians' who monitor these nutjobs. Glad the security services also monitor them as closely.


Account now suspended


----------



## Schmetterling (May 23, 2017)

Grace Johnson said:


> I think I'm going to be scared when sirens start from now on. That's how I knew something horrible had happened. Like I live in Manchester centre I'm used to sirens but they just didn't stop.



That's what I remember from the London bombings.


----------



## DexterTCN (May 23, 2017)

What sickening news to wake up to.  Hope the numbers don't rise.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Schmetterling said:


> That's what I remember from the London bombings.



I'm sorry to hear that  

I hope you were able to deal with it ok? The underground must have been scary as fuck afterwards.


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Buzzfeed rundown on some of the false rumours so far:
> 
> This Is Some Of The Fake News Circulating About The Manchester Arena Blast



"The Daily Express later updated their story with a new headline denying the original claim about a gunman."

instant news really irritates me, take a second or two to check facts


----------



## Ranbay (May 23, 2017)

You have to be careful with them tweet times also, as they look different depending where you are.


----------



## Schmetterling (May 23, 2017)

Grace Johnson said:


> I'm sorry to hear that
> 
> I hope you were able to deal with it ok? The underground must have been scary as fuck afterwards.



I was unscathed. Worked at The Royal London then.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Schmetterling said:


> That's what I remember from the London bombings.


Remember the fluff coming down outside Hackney town hall from bishopsgate


----------



## rekil (May 23, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> You have to be careful with them tweet times also, as they look different depending where you are.


Yeah this gamer prick posted this around midnight 



Spoiler: gamer prick







But by not being logged in, my screenie shows yesterday afternoon. Deleted now after a few people had a word apparently.


----------



## Schmetterling (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Remember the fluff coming down outside Hackney town hall from bishopsgate



 You mean debris?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Schmetterling said:


> You mean debris?


Yeh, it was insulation stuff coming down like rain


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, it was insulation stuff coming down like rain



That sounds really disturbing. It's mad  how little pieces of imagery like that stay with you. Like the scene itself if quite inert really but when you know the significance of it it just chills the core of you. Horrible


----------



## Schmetterling (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, it was insulation stuff coming down like rain



Bloody hell!

I haven't read the entire thread; are we - our fellow Urbs in Manchester - all ok?


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

I watched the whole thing develop last night - texted my mother when I first heard the news (before the police had said there was fatalities, and hoping upon hope that it was just a balloon or something as some initial tweets had said) since she would have otherwise had been in hysterics. Ever since the London bombings, and moreso after the spate of attacks in continental Europe, I have thought it would be a only a matter of time that a British city outside London would be targeted, and more likely than not it would be Manchester, with its "second city" status and all. I could still hear sirens and helicopters from around 1.30am as I tried to put it out of my mind and get to sleep. Still shocking to hear of such senseless loss of life so close to home.


----------



## Flavour (May 23, 2017)

Terrible. No words. So many children.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.



NYT had something a year or so back showing the trend away from complex operations requiring logistics support, towards stuff a motivated loner or small but isolated group can do using an 'open source' concept, but which becomes an action on behalf of Daesh or whoever on the basis of a Facebook post.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

Utter fucking bastards. Little kids dancing.

And this


copliker said:


> Spoiler: gamer prick
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 107438


You'd think that would spell the end of his chances of getting employed by anyone, ever. But I just _know_ somebody somewhere will see that and think "Hmmm, this guy's really good at creating content". What a world.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.


Like the doctors plot of '07, where they tried to attack clubbers on haymarket and then attacked Glasgow airport


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.


Trying to recall this now - if we are talking about Islamists then it might have been the 2005 London bombings, otherwise Anders Brevik.



Bernie Gunther said:


> NYT had something a year or so back showing the trend away from complex operations requiring logistics support, towards stuff a motivated loner or small but isolated group can do using an 'open source' concept, but which becomes an action on behalf of Daesh or whoever on the basis of a Facebook post.


The thing is Daesh will happily claim responsibility for any Islamist-motivated attack, regardless of scale - even if the perpetrator was acting without any orders or guidance from them.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 23, 2017)

Just numb really. Kids on a night out.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Trying to recall this now - if we are talking about Islamists then it might have been the 2005 London bombings, otherwise Anders Brevik.


Do you so soon forget events in Germany last year?


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe.



Last month, in St Petersburg.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Athos said:


> Last month, in St Petersburg.


Yeh, true


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you so soon forget events in Germany last year?


I remember a stabbing and people being mown over in a truck there - don't remember any bombs though. Anyway try not to be so condescending at this sensitive time.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> It's heartbreaking looking at twitter this morning. I'm seeing desperate tweets of people looking for missing children. It's overwhelming.


Yes, this.


----------



## pesh (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.


Paris 2015


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

Brussels 2016. Sadly Manchester very much not without precedent


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

the cunt that did this would have been looking directly at those smiling and happy kids and parents as he detonated his device. He probably calculated the best moment to do it so as to cause maximum death and destruction. How fucked up does someone have to be to do that? How can someone subsume their humanity to a dogma of hate to that extent?


----------



## maomao (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's been stabbing, guns and lorries for a while, can't remember when the cunts last used a bomb in Europe. Can't think of the mindset that sits there and carefully assembles something like this.


There were 4 suicide bombers in the 2015 Paris attacks. All the gunmen had explosive vest too, two of which were detonated.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Brussels 2016. Sadly Manchester very much not without precedent



Aye, the airport one. I was thinking the MO had shifted a bit, but perhaps not.


----------



## Maharani (May 23, 2017)

Awful news...I'm getting mixed messages about whether London Victoria Train station is open or not. Does anyone know? I know VCS was closed due to a suspected package. I think it's going to be chaos all over UK today travel wise.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

pesh said:


> Paris 2015


Just looked at the Wikipedia entry for the November 2015 Paris attacks, and yes, they were bombings that contributed to the bloodbath, even though it guns that was used to spill most of the blood there - although at the end of the day, what difference does it really make? Murdering scum are murdering scum regardless of the tools they use.



> *Stade de France explosions*
> Three explosions occurred near the country's national sports stadium, the Stade de France, in the suburb of Saint-Denis, resulting in four deaths, including the three suicide bombers.[59] The explosions happened at 21:16, 21:19,[note 1] and 21:53.[60] The first explosion near the stadium was about 20 minutes after the start of an international friendly football match between France and Germany, which President Hollande was attending.[61][62] The first bomber was prevented from entering the stadium after a security guard patted him down and discovered the suicide vest;[63] a few seconds after being turned away, he detonated the vest, killing himself and a bystander.[64] Investigators later surmised that the first suicide bomber had planned to detonate his vest within the stadium, triggering the crowd's panicked exit onto the streets where two other bombers were lying in wait.[65] Ten minutes after the first bombing, the second bomber blew himself up near the stadium.[note 1] Another 23 minutes after that, the third bomber's vest detonated nearby; according to some reports, that location was at a McDonald's restaurant;[63][66] others state that the bomb detonated some distance away from any discernible target.[67]
> 
> Hollande was evacuated from the stadium at half-time, while the German foreign minister, Frank-Walter Steinmeier, remained at the stadium.[68][69]Hollande met with his interior minister Bernard Cazeneuve to co-ordinate a response to the emergency.[70] Two of the explosions were heard on the live televised broadcast of the match;[note 1] both football coaches were informed by French officials of a developing crisis, but players and fans were kept unaware of it until the game had finished.[71] Hollande, concerned that the safety of the crowd outside the stadium could not be assured if the match was immediately cancelled, decided that the game should continue without a public announcement.[65]
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Anyway try not to be so condescending at this sensitive time.


one-upmanship ill becomes you. Nothing condescending in my post and I would never, as you do, use the emotion of the moment to patronise and belittle.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> one-upmanship ill becomes you. Nothing condescending in my post and I would never, as you do, use the emotion of the moment to patronise and belittle.


I was trying to recall from memory the last time a bombing had occurred in Europe (rather than a shooting, stabbing, or deliberate use of a truck to kill). You decided to use a sneering tone to point out that I was incorrect, which there was no need for at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> I was trying to recall from memory the last time a bombing had occurred in Europe (rather than a shooting, stabbing, or deliberate use of a truck to kill). You decided to use a sneering tone to point out that I was incorrect, which there was no need for at all.


If you think this advances your argument or is consonant with the thread I think you're wrong. Let us hear no more bickering.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

One or both of you back away from this unseemly nonsense.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

The internet is full of people's hot takes on this already from Farage to imperialist chickens home to roost. It just compounds the horror.Please try if possible to just not fight for a few hours.


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> the cunt that did this would have been looking directly at those smiling and happy kids and parents as he detonated his device. He probably calculated the best moment to do it so as to cause maximum death and destruction. How fucked up does someone have to be to do that? How can someone subsume their humanity to a dogma of hate to that extent?


And had presumably just sat through the concert with them... Two hours of being part of something, part of a shared experience... It somehow seems harsher than walking into a market a killing people you've never seen before.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> If you think this advances your argument or is consonant with the thread I think you're wrong. Let us hear no more bickering.


I'm not advancing any argument now - just pointing out that you needlessly talked down to me and then resorted to gaslighting when I responded back, treating me like a child, something I have seen you do plenty of times on these boards.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> One or both of you back away from this unseemly nonsense.


Are you a moderator? No? Then you and who's army?


----------



## wiskey (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Are you a moderator? No? Then you and who's army?


Are you for real? 

I'm leaving this thread now.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

I didn't start this.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

You seem determined to prolong it though. I don't think I have to be a mod to tell you this isn't the place for petty arguing. Just leave it alone.


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

wiskey said:


> And had presumably just sat through the concert with them... Two hours of being part of something, part of a shared experience... It somehow seems harsher than walking into a market a killing people you've never seen before.



Current info is saying it happened in the foyer, I'd think it's fairly likely the bomber came from outside the venue. Fucking grim news this.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

wiskey said:


> And had presumably just sat through the concert with them... Two hours of being part of something, part of a shared experience... It somehow seems harsher than walking into a market a killing people you've never seen before.


He won't have got in, it was outside the arena lobby according to reports


----------



## JTG (May 23, 2017)

wiskey said:


> And had presumably just sat through the concert with them... Two hours of being part of something, part of a shared experience... It somehow seems harsher than walking into a market a killing people you've never seen before.


From what I gather (ie the MEN Arena's statement that it happened in a public area), it seems likely that they waited outside for the exit doors to open. No need to worry about searches, just wait for the crowd to come to you


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly nothing senseless about it. This was done to provoke a reaction and as the murder of lee rigby showed there will always be people up for responding.


Hadn't thought of it until you mentioned Rigby, but yesterday was the anniversary of his death. Probably just a horrible coincidence, but those sorts of emotions will already have been running high - saw a video on Facebook of some guys gluing a plaque to the pavement as the council won't condone an official memorial, or something. Can only imagine what they're hideous thoughts that will be going through their heads today


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> You seem determined to prolong it though. I don't think I have to be a mod to tell you this isn't the place for petty arguing. Just leave it alone.


I have said all that needs to be said anyway. Feeling pretty tender amid all this, hearing of such bloodshed in the very city I live in. It's a good job (for me) that I don't really participate on Twitter much these days.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Are you a moderator? No? Then you and who's army?


You were wrong. Get over it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Katie Hopkins is having a rare old time. However, demanding a “final solution” is possibly not really what anyone needs 






Katie Hopkins reported to police after demanding 'final solution' following Manchester attack

Tweet now seems to have been deleted; a slightly tweaked one is up instead:


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Katie Hopkins tweets something outrageously vile amid an atrocity. In other news, the Pope is Catholic. People really need to start denying her the oxygen of publicity.


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 23, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Katie Hopkins is having a rare old time. However, demanding a “final solution” is possibly not really what anyone needs
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I briefly tuned into GMB this morning to see Piers Morgan saying very similar. 'We don't need any more candlelight vigils, we need action'

What action would that be Piers?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I briefly tuned into GMB this morning to see Piers Morgan saying very similar. 'We don't need any more candlelight vigils, we need action'
> 
> What action would that be Piers?


Always the people least likely to be involved in this 'action' who call loudest for it


----------



## IC3D (May 23, 2017)

Piers Morgan stirring up hate again on TV this morning.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Terrorism's goal is to spread hatred and intolerance, quoting Piers, Hopkins Paul Joeseph Watson et all, is making the situation worse. 


21 years ago the IRA detonated a 5,000lb in Manchester, Manchester didn't give into hate then, please dont do so no.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

Does anyone know if any of the missing kids have turned up? Or are they numbered among the dead?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Katie Hopkins tweets something outrageously vile amid an atrocity. In other news, the Pope is Catholic. People really need to start denying her the oxygen of publicity.


by no means, this is when her voice should most be heard. she should be given the mockery she deserves so her proposals fall by the wayside with no one else hurt.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

From a friend's facebook

21 years ago, terrorists attacked my city. Manchester. A 3,300 lb truck bomb took out a huge section of the city center on a busy Saturday afternoon. There were no fatalities, but the IRA wanted to destroy infrastructure, not kill innocents, and gave a warning that got tens of thousands evacuated in good time.

But what happened on the following Monday morning is, to me, the greatest example of the Mancunian spirit. There was a huge exclusion zone, as the shock wave had shattered windows for a half mile in every direction, and falling glass was a real danger. The police were turning everyone away at the edge of the exclusion zone. I was talking to one of the policemen about access (I had clearance into the zone because of my job at the time), and he told me that the crowds of people showing up to go to work were so overwhelming, and so steadfast in their desire to continue with their daily routine, that they were calling in riot officers to control the ever growing crowds.

Imagine that for a minute... a city devastated by one of the largest bombs ever detonated in the UK, and the growing concern to the police was the residents somewhat forceful desires to get on with life as normally as possible.

In the face of terrorism, do not be terrified, but instead hope.
In the face of death, do not acquiesce to fatalism, but instead live.

And throughout the bombing, and since the rebuilding, to this day, there stands a letter box. It stood strong, literally 100 feet from the bomb, and protected the mail inside, which was delivered unharmed.

It did not falter.

Just as the people of Manchester did not falter.

They will not falter now.

#proudtobemancunian

 


And, as I do on every trip back home, I hugged that letter box just last month. Because it's a fucking bad-ass.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Does anyone know if any of the missing kids have turned up? Or are they numbered among the dead?


There are composite photos being posted on twitter with 'found' written over some of the faces, most of them not.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Does anyone know if any of the missing kids have turned up? Or are they numbered among the dead?



Best not to speculate. or guess.


----------



## ringo (May 23, 2017)

What a terrible thing to wake up to, those poor little children. My 7 and 13 year old daughters love her, we were thinking of taking them to see her for one of their birthdays, could so easily have been there. Just little kids seeing their favourite pop star, with no idea what any of this even means.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> by no means, this is when her voice should most be heard. she should be given the mockery she deserves so her proposals fall by the wayside with no one else hurt.



they should stick her in fucking belmarsh


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> they should stick her in fucking belmarsh


don't see why she should be hidden away behind walls. they should stick her in stocks.


----------



## Glitter (May 23, 2017)

JTG said:


> From what I gather (ie the MEN Arena's statement that it happened in a public area), it seems likely that they waited outside for the exit doors to open. No need to worry about searches, just wait for the crowd to come to you



There's a massive foyer, just outside the doors, with steps leading into Victoria Station. Usually there's loads of stalls selling merch.

I'm pretty certain that's where it was. Anyone can just walk up from the station. It's horrible to think this cunt calmly walked up those stairs, stairs I've walked up so many times myself, stood there and waited for these happy excited kids and their parents,. 

It feels worse to me than the others. Because it's my home I suppose. It feels personal.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

People like Katie Hopkins thrive on publicity and the controversy they create. Stop rising to her trolling and she has no reason to exist and will fade away to nothing.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Glitter said:


> There's a massive foyer, just outside the doors, with steps leading into Victoria Station. Usually there's loads of stalls selling merch.
> 
> I'm pretty certain that's where it was. Anyone can just walk up from the station. It's horrible to think this cunt calmly walked up those stairs, stairs I've walked up so many times myself, stood there and waited for these happy excited kids and their parents,.
> 
> It feels worse to me than the others. Because it's my home I suppose. It feels personal.


If it's where I think it is, I passed through that very area a few weeks ago. It's so spine-chilling to imagine what happened there - someone who's beliefs negated any sense of compassion towards their fellow human being.

It feels worse than others to me as well, Manchester is my home too, and also the fact the victims were so young. As I said earlier I thought it was be only a matter of time before there was at least an attempted attack in Manchester, but I mainly thought they would target the public transport network.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Does anyone know if any of the missing kids have turned up? Or are they numbered among the dead?


There is this:
(posted half an hour ago).

More than 50 children have been taken there apparently.


----------



## Bungle73 (May 23, 2017)

Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> I briefly tuned into GMB this morning to see Piers Morgan saying very similar. 'We don't need any more candlelight vigils, we need action'
> 
> What action would that be Piers?



He probably means 'we' should go and bomb a load of their kids or something to even the score. Oh wait..

Anyone that fails to see the cyclical nature of this shit is thick as fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?


Surprising what trauma does to people. The inexperienced fools.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?




Stupid kids, eh.


Shocked distressed horrified children. Chaos on all sides. Increased concerns regarding the safety of those children. Panicked parents. No existing infrastructure for getting the relevant information to the correct people..... Who'd a thunk it, eh Bungle73


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?



The horrible thing is that the parents meeting then to pick up these stray kids may be among the victims. I feel sick just thinking about it.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Terrorism's goal is to spread hatred and intolerance, quoting Piers, Hopkins Paul Joeseph Watson et all, is making the situation worse.
> 
> 
> 21 years ago the IRA detonated a 5,000lb in Manchester, Manchester didn't give into hate then, please dont do so no.



Yep.  Also if someone wants to read the likes of Hopkins, Morgans tweets  fine  stop inflicting it on the rest of us. We all know how to use Twitter  if we want to look for that crap.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?



Shock and or injuries including temporary deafness not to mention emergency services stretched to the limit and confused parents unsure of where to go.


----------



## aqua (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Shock and or injuries including temporary deafness not to mention emergency services stretched to the limit and confused parents unsure of where to go.


add in pressure on mobile networks etc and it's no wonder it takes time to get people reunited

I keep coming back to this thread and feel so fucking helpless. Helpless and angry. Kids, kids being kids. Kids with their lives yet to play out. Fucks sake


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2017)

Not to mention, flat mobile phone batteries.  Some of the kids were probably filming the concert, expected to charge the phone back at hotel.


----------



## Corax (May 23, 2017)

Facebook appear to have turned off the safety check feature...


----------



## Glitter (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Surely the kids at the HI are old enough to tell the people there who they are, and who needs to be contacted about them?



The missing children are pretty likely to make up a decent chunk of the 22 killed. Heaven forbid their parents are holding out hope that they're not waiting for identification eh?

Din't be so fucking insensitive.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

My kids are very upset at this - I think for the first time they can connect with how shit this kind of thing is and how the selfish arseholes who feel the need to do it actually think. Master NBE is going to a gig tonight n London, so direct resonance there. Awful. Kids as well.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

aqua said:


> add in pressure on mobile networks etc and it's no wonder it takes time to get people reunited
> 
> I keep coming back to this thread and feel so fucking helpless. Helpless and angry. Kids, kids being kids. Kids with their lives yet to play out. Fucks sake



I have family in Omagh, they didn't lose anyone but they remember the terror confusion and rumours that lasted late into the night


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.

I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> My kids are very upset at this - I think for the first time they can connect with how shit this kind of thing is and how the selfish arseholes who feel the need to do it actually think. Master NBE is going to a gig tonight n London, so direct resonance there. Awful. Kids as well.



Advice if you're upset by the news - CBBC Newsround


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> People like Katie Hopkins thrive on publicity and the controversy they create. Stop rising to her trolling and she has no reason to exist and will fade away to nothing.



they do it because they can get away with it - and by doing it they legitimise bigotry and hate. They absolutely should be condemned, made social pariahs and those that pay them shamed into sacking them.


----------



## Bungle73 (May 23, 2017)

Oh fuck off. Trust this forum to use any excuse to attack someone for making  simple observation.....and in a thread about a massacre in a UK city too. You fucking disgust me.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

I'm wondering if my daughter's school is going to do some sort of silence. Is anything planned? I kinda hope not because I'd rather she didn't know, or at least if she has to find out I'd prefer it to come from me.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.
> 
> I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.


not sure it's immedaiately possible for ariana when fans you've met - like georgina callander - are among the dead.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.
> 
> I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.



Yup don't forget Al Qaeda's stated aim was a worldwide Caliphate and a ban on Take That reunion gigs. Are you and bungle playing a game to find the least sensitive angle to focus on this tragedy?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2017)

Have Britain First called a demo yet?


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> they do it because they can get away with it - and by doing it they legitimise bigotry and hate. They absolutely should be condemned, made social pariahs and those that pay them shamed into sacking them.


All that shaming hasn't seemed to have hurt Katie Hopkins' career one iota. Whilst getting sacked because no one gives a shit what she is saying would.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Oh fuck off. Trust this forum to use any excuse to attack someone for making  simple observation.....and in a thread about a massacre in a UK city too. You fucking disgust me.


Best everyone just ignores this yeah? Like, from now.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> All that shaming hasn't seemed to have hurt Katie Hopkins' career one iota. Whilst getting sacked because no one gives a shit what she is saying would.


perhaps people giving a shit what she says will lead her into difficulties.


Katie Hopkins reported to police after Manchester attack tweet


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Yup don't forget Al Qaeda's stated aim was a worldwide Caliphate and a ban on Take That reunion gigs. Are you and bungle playing a game to find the least sensitive angle to focus on this tragedy?


How is it insensitive? i think its a valid point. If we let the word stop they have won, simples.


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.
> 
> I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.



Her o2 gig is on Thursday on a swift google, I don't imagine she will even have begun to process this by then.


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps people giving a shit what she says will lead her into difficulties.
> 
> View attachment 107441
> Katie Hopkins reported to police after Manchester attack tweet


Its hardly a police matter!


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

It's so strange and feels wrong voyeuristic that we can see this unfolding in real time, desperate people posting smiling pictures of their loved ones who they don't know if are safe or amongst the dead asking if anyone has seen them.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)




----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

edit,

Cid made a good point post moved.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> How is it insensitive? i think its a valid point. If we let the word stop they have won, simples.


yeh but it's one thing for e.g. me to struggle into work - and it is always a struggle - as usual after a terrorist attack. rather harder, perhaps, for people who've been nearer the heart of such attacks, like the eagles of death metal or ariana grande, to continue as usual.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Its hardly a police matter!


i didn't report her!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> It's so strange and feels wrong voyeuristic that we can see this unfolding in real time, desperate people posting smiling pictures of their loved ones who they don't know if are safe or amongst the dead asking if anyone has seen them.


not sure how else it would unfold. it's desperately sad, seeing what's emerging about those confirmed dead. don't expect a massacre at a pop gig


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> I presume the right wing press who said "violent madmen" shouldn't be allowed dictate the vote after the murder of Jo Cox, will show the same admirable restraint for the rest of this campaign.



I think better to keep discussion of the effect on the GE to the GE thread.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> It's so strange and feels wrong voyeuristic that we can see this unfolding in real time, desperate people posting smiling pictures of their loved ones who they don't know if are safe or amongst the dead asking if anyone has seen them.



My TV is off and I'm mainly restricting myself to this thread. Too many unpleasant memories of the July 7th attack.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

Never mind Grande will be acting on advice from any number of people but I'd expect she feels pretty dreadful herself this morning, maybe even guilty. Reactions to this sort of thing as it's so unusual fly off in all directions.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

Well that's something, anyway:


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Its hardly a police matter!



it is if she has broken laws on hate speech/incitement. 

she probably has enough wriggle room to not get charged. so its up to the public to shut her the fuck up.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps people giving a shit what she says will lead her into difficulties.
> 
> View attachment 107441
> Katie Hopkins reported to police after Manchester attack tweet


You can report someone for inciting hatred without giving her the oxygen of publicity. The problem is that should be charged and found not guilty it will just embolden her - and it's doubtful that a jury will convict her on the grounds of that tweet alone.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Never mind Grande will be acting on advice from any number of people but I'd expect she feels pretty dreadful herself this morning, maybe even guilty. Reactions to this sort of thing as it's so unusual fly off in all directions.


yeh, there'll be a lot of people who emerged physically unharmed from last night, who may even not have seen a drop of blood, but who will feel the effects of this for many years to come


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> You can report someone for inciting hatred without giving her the oxygen of publicity. The problem is that should be charged and found not guilty it will just embolden her - and it's doubtful that a jury will convict her on the grounds of that tweet alone.


give her till the end of the day, sure something else will emerge.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> My TV is off and I'm mainly restricting myself to this thread. Too many unpleasant memories of the July 7th attack.


I could do with going to the shops at some point, part of me wants to just lock myself down for the next day or two (which will inevitably lead to me being glued to the internet watching for new developments), another part wants to just get away for a walk somewhere out of the city for a bit. Problem is that a lot of the trains and trams are disrupted for obvious reasons.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Never mind Grande will be acting on advice from any number of people but I'd expect she feels pretty dreadful herself this morning, maybe even guilty. Reactions to this sort of thing as it's so unusual fly off in all directions.



She's 24 years old herself, barely older than some of her victims. I suspect she's also incredibly traumatised by all this


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> I could do with going to the shops at some point, part of me wants to just lock myself down for the next day or two (which will inevitably lead to me being glued to the internet watching for new developments), another part wants to just get away for a walk somewhere out of the city for a bit. Problem is that a lot of the trains and trams are disrupted for obvious reasons.


why not take a stroll and some pictures which you could share here.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> why not take a stroll and some pictures which you could share here.


It has been a while since I made a contribution to the "Mundane Pictures of the North" thread...


----------



## Ax^ (May 23, 2017)

Well fuck 

Grim reading this morning

Bastard


----------



## existentialist (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> People like Katie Hopkins thrive on publicity and the controversy they create. Stop rising to her trolling and she has no reason to exist and will fade away to nothing.


A fine and laudable sentiment, but it doesn't happen, does it? And, on that basis, it seems fairly pointless to continually be advocating it.

Because, if that were the solution to Katie Hopkins and her kind, she would never have been famous for being a motormouth in the first place. The fact that she is constitutes proof that "just ignore" is doomed to failure.

At least today we have a more equal platform. 20 years ago, someone like her could vomit her filth onto the pages of newspapers, and nobody could answer back. Today, that "attention" you decry is the voices of millions of people who disagree with her vileness answering back.

Why on earth would we want to give up on that right to reply?


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.
> 
> I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.



The CL Final like any big event would be a threat in any case .Not sure that Daesh or the jihaadists would have as their final outcome for victory as Take That cancelling a gig, normally it would be the establishment of a caliphate.

Oops beaten to it


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> I could do with going to the shops at some point, part of me wants to just lock myself down for the next day or two (which will inevitably lead to me being glued to the internet watching for new developments), another part wants to just get away for a walk somewhere out of the city for a bit. Problem is that a lot of the trains and trams are disrupted for obvious reasons.


Having spent the opening days of the second Gulf War sat in a flat in Manchester watching the horror unfold on twenty-four hour news, I'd suggest that a walk in the Pennines is probably the healthier option. It only takes about ten minutes to get to Stalybridge by train...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The CL Final like any big event would be a threat in any case .Not sure that Daesh or the jihaadists would have as their final outcome for victory as Take That cancelling a gig, normally it would be the establishment of a caliphate.


yeh but they might see the final dissolution of tt as a step towards that


----------



## existentialist (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Its hardly a police matter!


It is if she's committed a criminal offence. Which she conceivably might have, if her comments are likely to incite racial hatred.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Having spent the opening days of the first Gulf War sat in a flat in Manchester watching the horror unfold on twenty-four hour news, I'd suggest that a walk in the Pennines is probably the healthier option. It only takes about ten minutes to get to Stalybridge by train...


yeh i remember watching the first night of that and there was some reporter in saudi saying in effect 'you've just called us out of the bunker for an update while the chemical attack alarm goes off' and the screen went dead. the anchor looked suitably horrified.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure how else it would unfold. it's desperately sad, seeing what's emerging about those confirmed dead. don't expect a massacre at a pop gig


It's heartbreaking. Any parent who has ever dropped their kids off at a pop gig is probably tearing up at times; I know I am. I can't imagine how those parents are feeling who had kids at this gig, who might not even yet know if their child is among the dead or injured. 

I'm flashing back to the Dunblane tragedy (I'm from Dunblane) and that desparate morning when everyone with family at the school (which included me) tried to get information. 

There was rolling news back then, but not the social media we have now. 

Fuck the person who did this and fuck their ideology. Whoever they are. (And remember we don't yet know). And fuck the vampires on the far right who are _going into alliance_ with the Islamist far right to use the death of children to further their aims. Because that's what they are doing. (Even if it turns out not to be an Islamist attack). Fucking scum beneath fucking the lowest fucking degree of fucking disdain.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

The other added problem is that it just won't be Manchester parents who are worried, many of those attending would have travelled from all sorts of places.


----------



## treelover (May 23, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Hadn't thought of it until you mentioned Rigby, but yesterday was the anniversary of his death. Probably just a horrible coincidence, but those sorts of emotions will already have been running high - saw a video on Facebook of some guys gluing a plaque to the pavement as the council won't condone an official memorial, or something. Can only imagine what they're hideous thoughts that will be going through their heads today



Eh, he had every right to put a plaque there, it doesn't make him a fascist, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

treelover said:


> Eh, he had every right to put a plaque there, it doesn't make him a fascist, etc.


get a grip, you're the only person assuming it's a fascist. but no, you don't have the right to affix anything you want to the pavement.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> It's heartbreaking. Any parent who has ever dropped their kids off at a pop gig is probably tearing up at times; I know I am. I can't imagine how those parents are feeling who had kids at this gig, who might not even yet know if their child is among the dead or injured.
> 
> I'm flashing back to the Dunblane tragedy (I'm from Dunblane) and that desparate morning when everyone with family at the school (which included me) tried to get information.
> 
> ...


Great sentiments, great analysis.  If anybody is tempted to make stupid posts or score points, just read this.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

existentialist said:


> It is if she's committed a criminal offence. Which she conceivably might have, if her comments are likely to incite racial hatred.


 

Psyocpathic Recidivist. No chance of her being rehabilitated. Scum.


----------



## butchersapron (May 23, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The other added problem is that it just won't be Manchester parents who are worried, many of those attending would have travelled from all sorts of places.


Loads of the families last night seemed to have  been from scotland - christmas present, closest they can get sort of thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

the manchester evening news has a fundraising page Help raise £50000 to support families of those killed and injured in the Manchester Arena attack


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The CL Final like any big event would be a threat in any case .Not sure that Daesh or the jihaadists would have as their final outcome for victory as Take That cancelling a gig, normally it would be the establishment of a caliphate.
> 
> Oops beaten to it


They'll be ramping up the security for such an event for sure, even if there hadn't been a recent atrocity.



eoin_k said:


> Having spent the opening days of the second Gulf War sat in a flat in Manchester watching the horror unfold on twenty-four hour news, I'd suggest that a walk in the Pennines is probably the healthier option. It only takes about ten minutes to get to Stalybridge by train...


I'm contemplating Edale or Glossop. The trains there start in Piccadilly so hopefully not to badly affected. Failing that walking the canal out to Stretford then Mersey to Choltron Ees will do. I do want to make the vigil being held this evening though.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

some from Newcastle / NE also. I cannot imagine not being able to find your children far away from home like thjis


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> some from Newcastle / NE also. I cannot imagine not being able to find your children far away from home like thjis


likely also from wales, liverpool, up the west coast


----------



## souljacker (May 23, 2017)

1927 said:


> Reports that Take That Are unlikely now to be playing the MEN this week and Ariana Grande postponing 02 gig, the terrorists have won if this happens, better to get on with it and carry on as normal surely.
> 
> I fear that the Champions League final is Cardiff next week may well be a target now.



I'm not surprised that the next gigs are cancelled, some of the building did get blown up like. And a Ariana Grande postponing her gig is no surprise either. I suspect she's pretty freaked out.


----------



## alsoknownas (May 23, 2017)

Had a not so comfortable night trying to contact my son who works at the arena.  Fortunately took the day off and went to bed early following his uni exams.  Woke up to dozens of missed calls and texts, ect.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

Suspended the rest of the tour


----------



## Sue (May 23, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Had a not so comfortable night trying to contact my son who works at the arena.  Fortunately took the day off and went to bed early following his uni exams.  Woke up to dozens of missed calls and texts, ect.


Glad your son's okay.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Had a not so comfortable night trying to contact my son who works at the arena.  Fortunately took the day off and went to bed early following his uni exams.  Woke up to dozens of missed calls and texts, ect.


Had I not texted my mother last night I would probably woken up to my landline (since I turn my mobile off when I go to bed) ringing, and listening to a distraught mother telling me the news and wanting to be assured I hadn't been caught up in it.

Glad he's okay anyway.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

alsoknownas said:


> Had a not so comfortable night trying to contact my son who works at the arena.  Fortunately took the day off and went to bed early following his uni exams.  Woke up to dozens of missed calls and texts, ect.


Thank goodness.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2017)

Went to bed last night thinking nothing much of rumours of gunshots outside a Manchester venue...

Woke up to a facebook feed filled with my SiL in Manchester sharing posts of people desperately looking for missing kids at the concert.

I'm struggling with this one. Kids at a concert and their loving parents. What is there to say?


----------



## JTG (May 23, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Loads of the families last night seemed to have  been from scotland - christmas present, closest they can get sort of thing.


Standard for arena shows like this - people will travel from all over the UK to either the nearest one they can manage or the only one they can get tickets for etc


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

At times like this you can think about this in terms of causes, who did it, all sorts of events. _But most of all it's an attack on life_.  Absolutely heartbreaking thinking about the families who have lost a child or still don't know what has happened to their loved ones.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

The police now say they know the identity of the perpetrator, but are not disclosing it to the public at this stage - details in both the MEN and BBC live feeds.


----------



## RainbowTown (May 23, 2017)

Admist the awful events of last night, let's not forget to give a heads up to all those who assisted and helped the injured and other concert goers. Emergency services, police, security staff and the public at large. They did a sterling job.

RIP to those who died.


----------



## A380 (May 23, 2017)

And again, not my words but someone on heres message to the people who helped the murderer: 

"Fuck you, you cunts. You won't make us hate our neighbors."


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

kay burley: sadness in her eyes


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

chilango said:


> Went to bed last night thinking nothing much of rumours of gunshots outside a Manchester venue...
> 
> Woke up to a facebook feed filled with my SiL in Manchester sharing posts of people desperately looking for missing kids at the concert.
> 
> I'm struggling with this one. Kids at a concert and their loving parents. What is there to say?


When the London bomb went off I was at the G8 protest camp in Stirling and the police locked the camp down for most of the day.  It was obviously horrific and lots of people were very anxious to find out what had happened to their loved ones.  It was a time of mobiles obviously, but there were no access to TV or social media, just information trickling in off websites.  This feels more _immediate_ to me, partly because of social media and the combination of news saturation and rumour - along with the fact I've worked and studied in Manchester.  Sorry, my reminiscences are not relevant, just trying to process this shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

as you can see, manchester not out of it yet - theresa may reported to be on her way to the city


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

The worrying thing about the Manchester attack is that if it does turn out to ISIS related, it marks a huge jump in effective target choice by individuals radicalised by this group. Most extremist terrorist attacks in the UK have either failed or have resulted in a relatively small death toll. Even the July 7th attack had a surprisingly low death toll (57?) when you consider it involved four bombs on the London transport system at rush hour. If that attack had been better planned or organised it could have lead to a death toll in the hundreds.

Attacking the unexpecting public in usual places was the mark of Palestine extremists (not saying that this is in any way directly related to the Palestine conflict) buses, concerts, night clubs are all preferred targets. ISIS related groups in Europe picked up on that and began targetted events like football matches and concerts. I'm just really concerned that this is an escalation, not an isolated incident.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 23, 2017)

This just breaks my heart.  
When my daughter was younger I trusted someone to take care of her at a concert in Kentish Town.   They fucked off and left her stranded.  She was very young at the time.  Had to send my partner to find her.   Can't describe the panic I felt until my partners call saying she was with him.   
Terrible...


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> The worrying thing about the Manchester attack is that if it does turn out to ISIS related, it marks a huge jump in effective target choice by this group. Most radical Islamic terrorist attacks in the UK have either failed or have resulted in a relatively small death toll. Even the July 7th attack had a surprisingly low death toll (57?) when you consider it involved four bombs on the London transport system at rush hour. If that attack had been better planned or organised it could have lead to a death toll in the hundreds.
> 
> Attacking the unexpecting public in usual places was the mark of Palestine extremists (not saying that this is in any way directly related to the Palestine conflict) buses, concerts, night clubs are all preferred targets, and ISIS related groups in Europe picked up on that and targetted events like football matches and concerts. I'm just really concerned that this is an escalation, not an isolated incident.



Paris.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> The worrying thing about the Manchester attack is that if it does turn out to ISIS related, it marks a huge jump in effective target choice by this group. Most radical Islamic terrorist attacks in the UK have either failed or have resulted in a relatively small death toll. Even the July 7th attack had a surprisingly low death toll (57?) when you consider it involved four bombs on the London transport system at rush hour. If that attack had been better planned or organised it could have lead to a death toll in the hundreds.
> 
> Attacking the unexpecting public in usual places was the mark of Palestine extremists (not saying that this is in any way directly related to the Palestine conflict) buses, concerts, night clubs are all preferred targets, and ISIS related groups in Europe picked up on that and targetted events like football matches and concerts. I'm just really concerned that this is an escalation, not an isolated incident.


if this was daesh then clearly not planned by anyone familiar with similar attacks in e.g. iraq over the past 14 years, where 'double tap' bombings so routine. this isn't an escalation, being as 22 dead out of a crowd of apparently 21,000 is rather fewer than might have died in a similar attack in iraq: it is a message to voters many of whom i suspect will prefer may to corbyn in her handling of incidents of this sort.


----------



## chandlerp (May 23, 2017)

What is the actual point of May visiting the city?  Stay in London, we don't fucking need you up here.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

RainbowTown said:


> Admist the awful events of last night, let's not forget to give a heads up to all those who assisted and helped the injured and other concert goers. Emergency services, police, security staff and the public at large. They did a sterling job.


"Look for the helpers"


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> likely also from wales, liverpool, up the west coast



I heard a mum and daughter on the radio who'd gone up from Worcester, and another pair from Prestatyn, as well as a couple of lads from Newcastle.

It's just awful.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> What is the actual point of May visiting the city?  Stay in London, we don't fucking need you up here.



Someone has to tell the vicitms about the need to be strong and stable.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I heard a mum and daughter on the radio who'd gone up from Worcester, and another pair from Prestatyn, as well as a couple of lads from Newcastle.
> 
> It's just awful.


this is what people mean when they talk about an atrocity. not some namby-pamby car and gun assault in westminster, but a vicious and calculated attack on children and young people targeted as the most vulnerable, simply enjoying a night out - for many victims, no doubt one of the first of many nights out anticipated.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> What is the actual point of May visiting the city?  Stay in London, we don't fucking need you up here.


we don't fucking need her here either.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> this is what people mean when they talk about an atrocity. not some namby-pamby car and gun assault in westminster, but a vicious and calculated attack on children and young people targeted as the most vulnerable, simply enjoying a night out - for many victims, no doubt one of the first of many nights out anticipated.



BB1's bezza was due to go tonight (and spend the rest of the week up there visiting relatives).


13 year old girls.

They are all very shocked as for the first time their imagined invincibility has taken a knock as the twisted bastard was targeting them.

Dreadful beyond words.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> What is the actual point of May visiting the city?  Stay in London, we don't fucking need you up here.


I would have thought that was obvious, it gives her the opportunity to appear statesman/womanlike and caring and with this in mind, someone just shared this on fb:



> Two reporters on The Telegraph live feed from Downing Street just overheard discussing how last night's events will help May's campaign. And how it won't look good on Corbyn because "y'know, who's been branded as a terrorist sympathiser?"
> 
> They didn't know their mics were on.
> Live feed cut and now deleted.....



Personally I suspect it won't help her that much as incompetence, once identified as a trait maybe a difficult thing to shrug off.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> as you can see, manchester not out of it yet - theresa may reported to be on her way to the city



Hopefully she'll do another U turn and end up in Bradford. 

Christ Thersa May stalking Manchester hospitals like the grim reaper in nice shoes, as if those kids havent' suffered enough


----------



## Mumbles274 (May 23, 2017)

Arndale centre being evacuated. Hope it isn't anything else


----------



## aqua (May 23, 2017)

Mumbles274 said:


> Arndale centre being evacuated. Hope it isn't anything else


looking at my facebook seems a fair few large centres are practicing evacuation procedures this morning  I hope it's just that


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Any link on this Arndale evac?


----------



## mauvais (May 23, 2017)

Aye, there will no doubt be lots of false alarms over the next few days - hopefully nothing more for real.


----------



## Mumbles274 (May 23, 2017)

Its on the BBC rolling news on the internet.


----------



## mauvais (May 23, 2017)

Wookey said:


> Any link on this Arndale evac?


It's on BBC News.


----------



## killer b (May 23, 2017)

Unconnected according to the MEN


----------



## Mumbles274 (May 23, 2017)

Sorry. Watching on PC, and on phone

Manchester Arena suicide blast: Latest updates - BBC News


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

cops have identified the killer but have not released the name yet.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> Someone has to tell the vicitms about the need to be strong and stable.


I had the radio on and they cut to May giving her statement and I thought to myself 'if she fucking drops that strong and stable shit in this...' but then I figured it would be better if I just switched her off, so I did.


----------



## weltweit (May 23, 2017)

There was a radio report that said it was most unlikely the perpetrator (the suicide bomber) could have been working alone, as constructing a large bomb is a complex process. So the Manchester police will now be after any collaborators.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> The worrying thing about the Manchester attack is that if it does turn out to ISIS related, it marks a huge jump in effective target choice by individuals radicalised by this group. Most extremist terrorist attacks in the UK have either failed or have resulted in a relatively small death toll. Even the July 7th attack had a surprisingly low death toll (57?) when you consider it involved four bombs on the London transport system at rush hour. If that attack had been better planned or organised it could have lead to a death toll in the hundreds.
> 
> Attacking the unexpecting public in usual places was the mark of Palestine extremists (not saying that this is in any way directly related to the Palestine conflict) buses, concerts, night clubs are all preferred targets. ISIS related groups in Europe picked up on that and began targetted events like football matches and concerts. I'm just really concerned that this is an escalation, not an isolated incident.


And if you are not seeking to get a bomb into a secure environment, it presumably takes less planning and is 'easier' to do.  _Very_ depressing.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2017)

weltweit said:


> .. as constructing a large bomb is a complex process...


This is essentially bullshit.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> And if you are not seeking to get a bomb into a secure environment, it presumably takes less planning and is 'easier' to do.  _Very_ depressing.



which leads you to try and make everything "very secure". Back in Belfast in the 80s and 90s, EVERY shop had doormen, checking every bag of every customer coming into the shop.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

BBC reporting this 'A 23-year-old man has been arrested in connection with the Manchester bomb attack, Greater Manchester Police said'


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> This is essentially bullshit.



At the very least it takes a degree of skill. Most recent European terror attacks Nice, Westminister, Berlin, were all notably crude, and suggested a move from ISIS from trained operatives to inspiring lone wolves into wrecking maximum carnage with next to no training or guidance.

If it is a cell, and I'm not saying it is, bomb makers usually don't deliver the bombs  they've made themselves. Their skills are too valuable to waste in a suicide attack.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Someone posted this poem. You might think it mawkish i think its the best response i've seen so far.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

Bungle73 said:


> Oh fuck off. Trust this forum to use any excuse to attack someone for making  simple observation.....and in a thread about a massacre in a UK city too. You fucking disgust me.



The feeling is mutual, you compassionless prick.


----------



## RainbowTown (May 23, 2017)

There is no such thing as 100% security. As horrible as it sounds, the likelihood of similiar atrocities occuring again are high. Whether it be next month, next year, two years, whatever. They can never be fully eradicated, only contained and managed to the best of our abilities. This, sadly, is part of the world we now live in.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

police arresting people does not necessarily mean its an organised cell. If they have the name of the killer, they will be rounding up all his close associates, family etc (hence not realeasing his name). I think there were a fair few arrests after the westminster attack but they were all released within a day or so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

weltweit said:


> There was a radio report that said it was most unlikely the perpetrator (the suicide bomber) could have been working alone, as constructing a large bomb is a complex process. So the Manchester police will now be after any collaborators.



A bomb can be as simple or as complex as you care too make it.  A simple explosive like black powder - which you can make at home - can still be devastating if you package it for maximum effect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> This is essentially bullshit.



Quite.  Saltpetre, charcoal, sulphur.  It really IS as simple or as complex as you want to make it.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 23, 2017)

Horrible news.

I'm sad to say that since things like this cross my mind every time I go to a gig nowadays.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> which leads you to try and make everything "very secure". Back in Belfast in the 80s and 90s, EVERY shop had doormen, checking every bag of every customer coming into the shop.



The illusion of "absolute security", and that's all it is - an illusion.  We learned that in the '70s.  Even if everyone is vigilant, there are ways around vigilance, an example being the bomb in the Brighton Grand, which was planted weeks before Thatcher was due to stay there.


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...black powder...



Interestingly, one of the witnesses reported a strong smell of fireworks..

Not an absolute of course, and the firework smell could come from any number of sources after an explosion in a building, but interesting all the same.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The illusion of "absolute security", and that's all it is - an illusion.  We learned that in the '70s.  Even if everyone is vigilant, there are ways around vigilance, an example being the bomb in the Brighton Grand, which was planted weeks before Thatcher was due to stay there.


The Provies were able to do that because they had a level of organization and skill sets that I don't think the beards have ever been able to match, though.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2017)

Obvious point but since people are talking about the soft targets. It's worth remembering daily city life whilst presenting abundant opportunities for such vile atrocities, they're not all that common occurrence because:

A. The security services likely do disrupt, prevent many such attacks.
B. Even assembling a relatively low tech IED requires some knowledge, covert activity and preparation, which can be thwarted by A or incompetence.
C. I'd suggest the type of character with the means, motivation and mindset to murder kids, is still relatively rare.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quite.  Saltpetre, charcoal, sulphur.  It really IS as simple or as complex as you want to make it.


Weedkiller and sugar too, but this wasn't entirely my point. The OB by making that statement are laying the ground for a public perception of a 'cell' but as I've seen on Twitter there's more than one example of bombers who've acted alone. Timothy McVeigh and Anders Breivik spring to mind. I take 8den's point that suicide bombers are not so likely to have been responsible for making the bomb though but to say it's a complex thing to do is simply not true.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The illusion of "absolute security", and that's all it is - an illusion.  We learned that in the '70s.  Even if everyone is vigilant, there are ways around vigilance, an example being the bomb in the Brighton Grand, which was planted weeks before Thatcher was due to stay there.




Quite. I'm more worried about what measures will be brought in to make us "more secure".

It's going to be fucking odious watching Thersa May wander the hospitals offering "sympathy". Many of the survivors will face either years of recovery, or permanent disability; if May wins some of these poor kids could face ATOS assessment in a few years time.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

anyone can cause random mayhem and death to the public if they don't care if they die in the process. There is no practical defence against it in terms of security procedures. You can secure a particular area - like parliament - but anywhere with a crowd? impossible.


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> The Provies were able to do that because they had a level of organization and skill sets that I don't think the beards have ever been able to match, though.



I fear the grim truth is that the seriously capable beards are plying their trades in sandy places - comparing the sophistication and effectiveness of attacks in the ME to those in Europe, even the French attacks and last night, is illuminating in this regard.

We've got the fuck-wits, the bottom-third, the ones who couldn't get a plane to Syria without falling over their own shoe laces. This comforting scenario however may change when IS's temporal experiment comes to an end when Raqqa falls and they decide instead to go all AQ post-2001. 

Then we may meet the real hard nuts then, and we won't enjoy the experience.


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> A bomb can be as simple or as complex as you care too make it.  A simple explosive like black powder - which you can make at home - can still be devastating if you package it for maximum effect.



Or to think of it another way, an automobile is more complex than a crude bomb and even driving one requires a degree of skill, but gaining access to the necessary resources and developing the relevant skills or finding someone who already has them is less likely to attract the attention of the authorities.



Idris2002 said:


> The Provies were able to do that because they had a level of organization and skill sets that I don't think the beards have ever been able to match, though.



In Europe to date, but the potential fallout from Syria...


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I fear the grim truth is that the seriously capable beards are plying their trades in sandy places - comparing the sophistication and effectiveness of attacks in the ME to those in Europe, even the French attacks and last night, is illuminating in this regard.
> 
> We've got the fuck-wits, the bottom-third, the ones who couldn't get a plane to Syria without falling over their own shoe laces. This comforting scenario however may change when IS's temporal experiment comes to an end when Raqqa falls and they decide instead to go all AQ post-2001.
> 
> Then we may meet the real hard nuts then, and we won't enjoy the experience.


The hard nut fish will still need water to swim in, though. They may find things a bit too arid for their liking (hey, if you know a better straw, you should clutch at it).


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

The Irish Times appears to have replaced its hoomin staff with a bunch of lolcats:


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Quite. I'm more worried about what measures will be brought in to make us "more secure".



The "false flag" idiots have been really pissing me off on this subject.  Most of them don't grasp that a government doesn't *need* to stage an atrocity, merely to take advantage when one happens, and we can be absolutely assured that May and her cabinet will take FULL advantage of this.  Politically, I expect reminders of Corbyn's (fleeting) past associations to be stepped up ten-fold, and the term "soft on terrorism to be chucked around.  I can only hope that the term "trying to build a victory on the bodies of dead children" gets used in reply.



> It's going to be fucking odious watching Thersa May wander the hospitals offering "sympathy". Many of the survivors will face either years of recovery, or permanent disability if May wins some of these poor kids could face ATOS assessment in a few years time.



"Sympathy" is about right.  Chatting with some fellow psych post-grads a couple of weeks ago, we'd all of us noted that May's "body language" continually betrays her as acting out a role - she doesn't believe most of what she says, and her defensive body language - including that shaking of the head she tries so hard to suppress - gives that away. As I said then, give me an honest psychopath like Thatcher, who actually believed the shit she spouted, any day. Psychopathy is to be preferred over the sort of opportunistic role-playing that May engages in.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)




----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

As it ever was.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2017)

There's apprantly about 3000 beards on the list so not a very big sea to swim in for anyone of importance


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I fear the grim truth is that the seriously capable beards are plying their trades in sandy places - comparing the sophistication and effectiveness of attacks in the ME to those in Europe, even the French attacks and last night, is illuminating in this regard.


This is essentially what is underneath the cabin electronics device ban.

Manchester - “So called Islamic State claiming responsibility” - BBC.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> View attachment 107453
> 
> As it ever was.


That's fucking dreadful and a reflection on the depths that rolling 24 hour news channels have to plumb. For example...

The NUJ should expel members who act with such a lack of morality.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I fear the grim truth is that the seriously capable beards are plying their trades in sandy places - comparing the sophistication and effectiveness of attacks in the ME to those in Europe, even the French attacks and last night, is illuminating in this regard.
> 
> We've got the fuck-wits, the bottom-third, the ones who couldn't get a plane to Syria without falling over their own shoe laces. This comforting scenario however may change when IS's temporal experiment comes to an end when Raqqa falls and they decide instead to go all AQ post-2001.
> 
> Then we may meet the real hard nuts then, and we won't enjoy the experience.


Also, when the bottom finally falls out of the Daesh phenomenon, they will need to reorient themselves first and foremost as an underground mafia in Iraq and Syria, and they will have lost their hardest fighters in places like Mosul (look, that's a clutchable straw too).


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

likesfish said:


> There's apprantly about 3000 beards on the list so not a very big sea to swim in for anyone of importance


I remember someone in Belfast (I'll have to say no more, as I don't want to out anyone) saying that in the old days people in West Belfast would leave their front doors unlocked at night, so that volunteers running from your lot would be able to escape. This person was telling me this to highlight the contrast between then and now: by the time I heard this story, everyone in WB was keeping their front doors firmly locked at night.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Mumbles274 said:


> Arndale centre being evacuated. Hope it isn't anything else



Evening News has definitely shown its better side in recent hours, Arndale timeline here:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ter-arndale-shopping-centre-evacuated-1307795

I'm a bit suprised it was open at all, it's literally a minute walk from Victoria at the closest point. Evening News now reporting police asking people to stay out of city centre altogether. I don't know how anyone could work there today, or be expected to. It's a much much smaller area than (say) London.


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

At work they showed us this Jihadist magazine called Inspire - it had instructions on how to make a nail bomb - its shockingly simple - with an afternoon's shopping and afternoon's prep most people could knock one up of devastating power.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2017)

2hats said:


> ...Manchester - “So called Islamic State claiming responsibility” - BBC.


This was pretty much bound to happen whether they are actually responsible or not.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> cops have identified the killer but have not released the name yet.



If the prime suspect is caught and charged I sincerely hope (against hope) that media won't essentially blur into playing a part in terror publicity by plastering the face all over the worlds screens. Sooner or later we have to learn some lessons as, to their credit, many in the US have learned regarding spree shootings.

Some interesting links here


Reporting Terrorism: How Reckless Media Can Make Matters Worse - Ethical Journalism Network

http://unesdoc.unesco.org/images/0024/002470/247074E.pdf


----------



## spanglechick (May 23, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> If the prime suspect is caught and charged I sincerely hope (against hope) that media won't essentially blur into playing a part in terror publicity by plastering the face all over the worlds screens. Sooner or later we have to learn some lessons as, to their credit, many in the US have learned regarding spree shootings.
> 
> Some interesting links here
> 
> ...


He won't be charged.  He's dead.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

It's official, Daesh claim responsibility, as predicted:


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

People here won't need reminding that a prime objective of Daesh is polarising populations and that the vast majority of their victims are muslims. People not here may well need reminding.


----------



## teqniq (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> View attachment 107453
> 
> As it ever was.


Nasty fucking scum. There appears to be some strategy with this also:


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> That's fucking dreadful and a reflection on the depths that rolling 24 hour news channels have to plumb. For example...
> 
> The NUJ should expel members who act with such a lack of morality.



Back in the day, the individual chapels used to.  Problem is that once Murdoch broke the print unions and damaged the journo unions, the "race to the bottom" began, and papers found themselves publishing all sorts of wank that they'd seen as beneath them a few years before.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 23, 2017)

Well, I hope everyone on the boards is ok.  As usual our media is doing a lousy job of reporting anything overseas.  I haven't checked Fox, but I imagine they're playing up the terrorism angle to the hilt--the better to oppress us with.  I'm glad that the hotels nearby opened their doors to survivors.  I've seen enough of most hotel management to think that wouldn't always happen.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Buzzfeed rundown on some of the false rumours so far:
> 
> This Is Some Of The Fake News Circulating About The Manchester Arena Blast


Similar article on BBC website:

#MissinginManchester: The fake images circulating online - BBC News


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> People here won't need reminding that a prime objective of Daesh is polarising populations and that the vast majority of their victims are muslims. People not here may well need reminding.


  How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

All kinds of fake news was doing the rounds on Twitter, not even an hour after the attack. These callous fuckwits need to get in the sea.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.


The intent is to stir up antagonism towards Muslims in general, feed into an "us and them" mentality, and encourage further radicalisation among Muslim communities.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.



As far as I can tell, the objective is to polarise in that people are supposed to start hating and resenting muslims as a consequence, especially (for want of better terms) "moderate"/"westernised"/"secular" muslims.

This is an awful thought for me (having worked a lot in schools and FE in Manchester and around): Imagine those places today, imagine how young muslims will be feeling. If they are being or think they are being ostracised or blamed, it will increase their isolation. Daesh scum don't want cohesion. That's what I mean by polarisation. 

The objective (I'm going from memory here) is to do away with "grey" areas.


It's classic Us / Them "clash of civilisations stuff - the like of which the far and hard right get bang into ASAP (as they have this time around predictably). They willingly do the spade work of terror. Britain First and that hopkins woman may as well be on the payroll.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> The intent is to stir up antagonism towards Muslims in general, feed into an "us and them" mentality, and encourage further radicalisation among Muslim communities.


Vast, vast majority of muslims will be as outraged by this as anyone else. And you know the local mosques will chip in to help the community come together.  its not 'polarisation' at best a handful of wronguns  will be impressed by this.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 23, 2017)

Islamic State’s Goal: “Eliminating the Grayzone” of Coexistence Between Muslims and the West


----------



## LiamO (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.



Why?

It is a very simple, devastatingly effective strategy. And one that every one of us will be living with for many years to come.

Every outrage provokes an anti-Muslim backlash... which feeds further alienation/radicalisation. And if the backlash is (almost universally) felt by 'innocent', 'moderate' Muslims (ie anybody who is not an outright supporter of the Jihadis - and in their eyes even more 'deserving' of death than even the Infidel) then the Daesh love that even more.

Been working for them for a long time.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

NEW casualty bureau number from police. Please use 0800 096 0095 from now on, other numbers no longer in use.

Source: GMP, _MEN_


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> Vast, vast majority of muslims will be as outraged by this as anyone else. And you know the local mosques will chip in to help the community come together.  its not 'polarisation' at best a handful of wronguns  will be impressed by this.


Recent election/referendum rhetoric and results would suggest otherwise.

I know it's not been just about terrorism, but it's been a key element.


----------



## LiamO (May 23, 2017)

Besides, let's not forget that the _vast_ (95%+ ?) majority of victims of these fascist cunts are themselves Muslims.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> Vast, vast majority of muslims will be as outraged by this as anyone else. And you know the local mosques will chip in to help the community come together.  its not 'polarisation' at best a handful of wronguns  will be impressed by this.


That won't necessarily stop the (far/alt) right from tarring all Muslims with the same brush, and for right wingers in general to make demands that Muslim communities "do more" to deal with Daesh and others that commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam - demands they will not be capable of meeting, especially when it's likely to be "never enough".


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Besides, let's not forget that the _vast_ (95%) majority of victims of these fascist cunts are themselves Muslims.


One thing that has always struck me about these atrocities committed in the name of Islam, from Paris to London in 2005, way back to the WTC and Pentagon attacks, is how Muslims were also among the victims of those attacks, indeed one of the victims of the Charlie Hebdo murders was a Muslim copy editor.


----------



## RainbowTown (May 23, 2017)

Another victim just named. 8 year old girl.

Words fail me.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> One thing that has always struck me about these atrocities committed in the name of Islam, from Paris to London in 2005, way back to the WTC and Pentagon attacks, is how Muslims were also among the victims of those attacks, indeed one of the victims of the Charlie Hebdo murders was a Muslim copy editor.


yeh but i suppose daesh would say either they're the wrong sort of muslim or never mind, they're in heaven now.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

RainbowTown said:


> Another victim just named. 8 year old girl.
> 
> Words fail me.


things will get ugly in misplaced response.


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

Telegraph, for their sins, are reporting that an 8 year old girl from the Preston area is among the dead and the girls school appear to be confirming it.

Her mother and sister are among the injured.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but i suppose daesh would say either they're the wrong sort of muslim or never mind, they're in heaven now.


Indeed - either they're not really Muslim/the wrong kind of Muslim and thus fair game, or they are among the martyrs and now in paradise.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit. 

Fucking wanker.


----------



## 2hats (May 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> This was pretty much bound to happen whether they are actually responsible or not.


Indeed, opportunistic/inspired/etc - the inconsistencies between the Daesh claim and the actual circumstances suggest those issuing the claim did not plan this in any detail, if at all.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> One thing that has always struck me about these atrocities committed in the name of Islam, from Paris to London in 2005, way back to the WTC and Pentagon attacks, is how Muslims were also among the victims of those attacks, indeed one of the victims of the Charlie Hebdo murders was a Muslim copy editor.



Around 50 Muslims (excluding the terrorists) died in the twin tower attacks.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> That won't necessarily stop the (far/alt) right from tarring all Muslims with the same brush, and for right wingers in general to make demands that Muslim communities "do more" to deal with Daesh and others that commit terrorist acts in the name of Islam - demands they will not be capable of meeting, especially when it's likely to be "never enough".



See it different, I think there was a bit of romantic sympathy for AQ when it started kicking off which allowed the nutter elements to ferment, even IS when the Syria started off, but I'm getting a vibe of recognition that this shower is more of a problem than a solution to anything.   The far right will be looking through the kaleidoscope more darkly, but they are just about to fall in on themselves due to 'shock' election after the referendum.  Or are you really thinking last night is going to win UKIP et al seats?


----------



## tommers (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit.
> 
> Fucking wanker.



Me too.  It's so awful.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.



 Presumably to capitalise on the device it backlash.  The anti-Islamic religion of peace memes and alike.  I know it's not rational but IS only has this to use  after this.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

tommers said:


> Me too.  It's so awful.


yeh, it's utterly, utterly vile 

so many of the likes on this thread meant as ((( )))


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.


don't see why, they want us all gone


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> See it different, I think there was a bit of romantic sympathy for AQ when it started kicking off which allowed the nutter elements to ferment, even IS when the Syria started off, but I'm getting a vibe of recognition that this shower is more of a problem than a solution to anything.   The far right will be looking through the kaleidoscope more darkly, but they are just about to fall in on themselves due to 'shock' election after the referendum.  Or are you really thinking last night is going to win UKIP et al seats?


UKIP are a spent force (although I am certainly something nastier is waiting in the wings in the forthcoming years), the real danger is the Tories get strongly reelected on a "clamping down on terrorists by removing everyone's civil liberties" ticket, and the usual suspects will be all too ready to stir up bigotry regardless of how well they do electorally.

If Daesh and the ideas that drive Daesh are to be beaten it's going to take the assistance of Muslims that are opposed to jihadism, though - but that's going to require dialogue rather than one-way demands.


----------



## LiamO (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Indeed - either they're not really Muslim/the wrong kind of Muslim and thus fair game, or they are among the martyrs and now in paradise.



The middle east and Afghanistan are littered with the corpses of hundreds of thousands of them.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Nasty fucking scum. There appears to be some strategy with this also:



Most of the parties will be working out how to play this murderous tragedy, ukip and tories most obviously.  To be honest, I'd guess Labour will also have had some members of the team working out how to respond to the digs and attacks that will be directed towards them.  That would be understandable, but also adds up to playing politics with horror.


----------



## aqua (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit.
> 
> Fucking wanker.


This is how I feel tbh. I've cried more over this today that I thought I would.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> Horrible news.
> 
> I'm sad to say that since things like this cross my mind every time I go to a gig nowadays.


Me too, although I take comfort in the idea that I doubt that most gigs I go to would be of much interest to terrorists who want to make as big an impact and generate as much publicity as they can.

After the Bataclan attack, I did wonder if they'd targeted that gig and specifically that band because of what (they thought) they represented. I imagined the perpetrators planning it and thinking 'Eagles of Death Metal? We'll show you some REAL death metal' and, without wishing to condone what they did, looking at it in that way made it seem more comprehensible - albeit in a sick way.

Last night's attack, even though thankfully fewer people were killed than on that night in Paris, somehow seems a lot worse because of the type of performer and the demographic of the audience. And yet that doesn't seem right either, because at the end of the day, the victims at both events were all innocent people just out for a fun night.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

LiamO said:


> The middle east and Afghanistan are littered with the corpses of hundreds of thousands of them.


That has not escaped my attention either.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

The news was bloody hard to watch. I'm not ashamed to say that I cried through a large part of it. Young children. Murdered for what?


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.



Because they want a "holy war" they want Christians to attack Muslim' to provoke Muslims until the whole world is at each other's throats, that's why you should ignore Hopkins et all, particularly at the moment, they're all feeding into a cycle of hate.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

I wish I could find some use for this raging fucking anger I have.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

aqua said:


> This is how I feel tbh. I've cried more over this today that I thought I would.


Yeah, me too. I was filling up at work today when talking to somebody about it. Not like me at all.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

Actions like these I see as the frantic flailings of a species heading towards extinction. lets hope so.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, me too. I was filling up at work today when talking to somebody about it. Not like me at all.


 
ditto


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> Me too, although I take comfort in the idea that I doubt that most gigs I go to would be of much interest to terrorists who want to make as big an impact and generate as much publicity as they can.
> 
> After the Bataclan attack, I did wonder if they'd targeted that gig and specifically that band because of what (they thought) they represented. I imagined the perpetrators planning it and thinking 'Eagles of Death Metal? We'll show you some REAL death metal' and, without wishing to condone what they did, looking at it in that way made it seem more comprehensible - albeit in a sick way.
> 
> Last night's attack, even though thankfully fewer people were killed than on that night in Paris, somehow seems a lot worse because of the type of performer and the demographic of the audience. And yet that doesn't seem right either, because at the end of the day, the victims at both events were all innocent people just out for a fun night.


 Know what you mean, in every bit of that.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> The news as bloody hard to watch. I'm not ashamed to say that I cried through a large part of it. Young children. Murdered for what?



If a bright side to this exists, then it's the way 100s of people from venue staff and security, emergency services and members of the public have pulled together to help through this horrible situation, and the speed with which they reacted.

To see people out offering lifts, and food/drink, and space in their home while not really knowing if they were putting themselves in danger is something to be applauded.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> Me too, although I take comfort in the idea that I doubt that most gigs I go to would be of much interest to terrorists who want to make as big an impact and generate as much publicity as they can.
> 
> After the Bataclan attack, I did wonder if they'd targeted that gig and specifically that band because of what (they thought) they represented. I imagined the perpetrators planning it and thinking 'Eagles of Death Metal? We'll show you some REAL death metal' and, without wishing to condone what they did, looking at it in that way made it seem more comprehensible - albeit in a sick way.
> 
> Last night's attack, even though thankfully fewer people were killed than on that night in Paris, somehow seems a lot worse because of the type of performer and the demographic of the audience. And yet that doesn't seem right either, because at the end of the day, the victims at both events were all innocent people just out for a fun night.



There is an element of the same thing, not knowing Eagles of Death Metal is a piss take  name, and not knowing that the end of the show isn't the end of the show, just the pause before the encores.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> That won't necessarily stop the (far/alt) right from tarring *all* Muslims with the same brush...



they don't actually need to do that though - hence the "skittles" meme...as helpfully re-posted by Donald Trump Jr.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Daesh need to be destroyed - and destroyed in a way that does not allow for something as bad as or worse than them to take their place. This fight is on many fronts but as long as they can effectively convince people to carry out atrocities with seemingly little way for the authorities to know until it's too late no one will be totally safe from them, be they in the Western world or the Middle East.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> ditto


me too. there is some comfort in knowing that lots of people are feeling like this today. Somehow thought i'd become used to it but no, which is maybe a good thing.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

Help raise £50000 to support families of those killed and injured in the Manchester Arena attack

In terms of feeling angry and upset but there being nothing you can do, this is the link Pickmans posted earlier.  I'm sure there will be things people can actively do to help in future days and weeks, but bunging them a few quid probably makes _me_ feel better. 

edit: page seems to be crashing, no doubt due to the amount of traffic it's getting.


----------



## xenon (May 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, me too. I was filling up at work today when talking to somebody about it. Not like me at all.



Yep. Normally quite good at mentally firewalling off news events I can do nothing about, try and rationalise, but just listening to LBC, on here, doing stuff around the house, fucking fuming and a bit choked up.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> me too. there is some comfort in knowing that lots of people are feeling like this today. Somehow thought i'd become used to it but no, which is maybe a good thing.


After the bloodbath in Paris I tended to just shrug whenever the latest attack occurred, barring Nice because so many were killed and because all the killer needed was _to steal a bloody truck_. This was true even after the Westminster attack this year. This however has taken me aback, not sure if it's because it's in my home city, the fact that children were among the victims, this being the worst terrorist attack since London in 2005 - AFAIK the greatest lost of life in any single incident since then, or a combination of the above. I just feel so lonely and helpless.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Help raise £50000 to support families of those killed and injured in the Manchester Arena attack
> 
> In terms of feeling angry and upset but there being nothing you can do, this is the link Pickmans posted earlier.  I'm sure there will be things people can actively do to help in future days and weeks, but bunging them a few quid probably makes _me_ feel better.


Already put £20 in. I would also say you can help give blood to help the victims, but thankfully the Blood Service has all the blood required for now:


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> ...
> Last night's attack, even though thankfully fewer people were killed than on that night in Paris, somehow seems a lot worse because of the type of performer and the demographic of the audience. And yet that doesn't seem right either, because at the end of the day, the victims at both events were all innocent people just out for a fun night.



I've found myself wondering if the audience and the nature of the performance - vaguely sexualised post-disney pop for (pre)teens - somehow contributed to the perpetrators rationale by offending their puritanism. A reference to the venue as 'shameless' in Daesh's statement suggested as much, but then went on to describe the children they've killed as 'crusaders', which just leaves me feeling ridiculous for even trying to understand their world view.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

Lots of people circulating an appeal for blood at the MRI on Facebook, claiming they've run out of a particular type.

This is apparently fake, and the hospital aren't finding it helpful having lots of people show up.

I really don't get why someone would fake this.


----------



## gosub (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> UKIP are a spent force (although I am certainly something nastier is waiting in the wings in the forthcoming years), the real danger is the Tories get strongly reelected on a "clamping down on terrorists by removing everyone's civil liberties" ticket, and the usual suspects will be all too ready to stir up bigotry regardless of how well they do electorally.
> 
> If Daesh and the ideas that drive Daesh are to be beaten it's going to take the assistance of Muslims that are opposed to jihadism, though - but that's going to require dialogue rather than one-way demands.



Am fully expecting Paul Nuttall to have been playing drums at the gig in a couple of days time.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Lots of people circulating an appeal for blood at the MRI on Facebook, claiming they've run out of a particular type.
> 
> This is apparently fake, and the hospital aren't finding it helpful having lots of people show up.
> I really don't get why someone would fake this.


Nor me - I can understand the good intentions behind the sharing of it, but what people aim to achieve by posting the original fake bewilders me, other than someone is maliciously trying to stir up further panic.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Lots of people circulating an appeal for blood at the MRI on Facebook, claiming they've run out of a particular type.
> 
> This is apparently fake, and the hospital aren't finding it helpful having lots of people show up.
> 
> I really don't get why someone would fake this.


 
Cant blame people for circulating it really - whoever knowingly started it should have his eyeballs removed with a spoon


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> which just leaves me feeling ridiculous for even trying to understand their world view.


I know, same here. Pointless exercise.


----------



## D'wards (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but i suppose daesh would say either they're the wrong sort of muslim or never mind, they're in heaven now.


Yeah, to lots of them Muslim is a very narrow definition.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

Not sure whether to post this, certainly don't want a derail into discussing foreign policy, at least on this thread, at this time.  But part of the depression you feel about these events relates to that.  It doesn't excuse vile acts of murder - explicitly and absolutely - but this is still a psychopathic response to long terms events.  Like I say, this isn't the time for debating this in terms of Bush and Blair, but it is somehow in the mix of the depression and anger you feel about what has happened.

Edit: that doesn't put it very well. Just trying to express the swirling pile of anger and sorrow you get at times like these.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2017)

For me, I think it's hit me me harder because having a 5 year old daughter and being able to see the years just around the corner where stuff like this concert will* fill her life and to know that girls just like the one she's fast becoming were not random victims but deliberate targets...fuck...you know? It's like the whole of my world has just been targeted.

*might, though not if I have my way. I'm lobbying hard for climbing, nature, bugs, science and stuff like that!


----------



## miss direct (May 23, 2017)

There is a lovely guy called Martyn  (his brother was quoted earlier on this thread posting about harassment from journalists) who I follow on twitter, who hasn't been heard from since the concert last night. Fearing the worst  was crying this morning reading the news.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

I'm getting a lot of those sorts of feelings, too, chilango. Especially hearing the latest fatality - she was 8, like my daughter, she liked Ariana Grande, like my daughter, her middle name was Rose, like my daughter...


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

chilango said:


> For me, I think it's hit me me harder because having a 5 year old daughter and being able to see the years just around the corner where stuff like this concert will* fill her life and to know that girls just like the one she fast becoming were not random victims but deliberate targets...fuck...you know? It's like the whole of my world has just been targeted.
> 
> *might, though not if I have my way. I'm lobbying hard for climbing, nature, bugs, science and stuff like that!



Same here - 13yo with two others running up fast behind. Mine appears to be allergic to sunlight and fresh air*, and taking sage advice from her old Dad. 

*Medeival battlefields, barely existing castles, desolate hill-tops and the pissing rain.

Thinking really hard today about parents looking for their kids and not finding them. Fucking heartbreaking.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 23, 2017)

The people who want a caliphate must be denied the outcome they want.

The people who want a Christian crusade against them must be deprived of the outcome they want.

They're both the religious right. I don't want to try to understand either of them. Fuck them. By being as secular as possible. That means concerts, going out, wearing skimpy clothes if you like, kissing in public, closing all faith schools, telling people who say this is a Christian country to fuck off, offending them if necessary,and any mixture of lighthearted and more serious acts and measures it takes.

Far too easy for me to say, hundreds of kilometres away. But take some notice of what happened after the Madrid metro bombs: Spain, which you might think would have gone all crusadery only too easily, didn't by-and-large. We  carried on going out and dancing ourselves silly. 

I hope they hate seeing the country where they hope to kick off their caliphate being just as fun as ever. And the fash, who vainly tried to capitalise on the bombings for another bash at 'the Moors',  still nowhere.

Still, eight year olds! It doesn't make for rational thought.


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

Obviously, there has always been spin and disinformation during these sorts of incidents, but this situation seems new to me. I can't think of a precedent for what looks like a number of different individuals trolling this for the lulz. Its as if the reports of 'fake news' during the US election have given them a sense of licence to post on the internet whatever malicious shit comes into their heads . Plenty of mainstream media also seem to have then been completely inept at fact checking material once it has gone viral.


----------



## sim667 (May 23, 2017)

CBS News are claiming to have identified the bomber, although I can't see this confirmed by any UK news sources

Latest on investigation into Manchester concert bombing


----------



## souljacker (May 23, 2017)

xenon said:


> Yep. Normally quite good at mentally firewalling off news events I can do nothing about, try and rationalise, but just listening to LBC, on here, doing stuff around the house, fucking fuming and a bit choked up.



Yep same here. Probably because it seemed a little close to home. Me and my 9 year old quite often have a dance to a bit of Ariana Grande (my tag line is a lyric from one of her songs) and I've sat on the sofa watching Sam and Cat with her many times. If I could have got tickets for the o2 (they sold out pretty quickly), we could well have been looking forward to the gig on Thursday. To think of my daughter witnessing any of this shite has freaked me out a bit.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

The Arndale has reopened, according to the MEN live feed.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

Police raids in Whalley Range and Fallowfield, controlled explosion at the latter:


----------



## killer b (May 23, 2017)

Christ. The first two kids named are from Preston, and the 8 year old went to school round the corner from my kids school.

My girlfriend lives in Whalley Range. All a bit close to home.


----------



## EastEnder (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Nor me - I can understand the good intentions behind the sharing of it, but what people aim to achieve by posting the original fake bewilders me, other than someone is maliciously trying to stir up further panic.


Small people wanting to feel big by causing a disruptive effect in order to make their pathetic little lives feel "special".


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

...


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

sim667 said:


> CBS News are claiming to have identified the bomber, although I can't see this confirmed by any UK news sources
> 
> Latest on investigation into Manchester concert bombing



Don't bother reading the comments...


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Don't bother reading the comments...


Like a horrific car crash, I just _had_ to look. Uuuuugggghhh...


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

And now I am on edge whenever I hear sirens - even though they are commonplace my way as I live on a junction of two main roads. Great.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Don't bother reading the comments...



Yep. I looked too. I suspect a couple of those IDs are the same troll, judging from the language usage.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> And now I am on edge whenever I hear sirens - even though they are commonplace my way as I live on a junction of two main roads. Great.




Yeah me too mate


----------



## sim667 (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Don't bother reading the comments...


Never read the comments


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

If you thought people hadn't already plumbed to new lows on social media, there's this: Twitter user suspended for homophobic terror attack posts


----------



## Sasaferrato (May 23, 2017)




----------



## phillm (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Don't bother reading the comments...



Made the mistake of visiting Breibart as you do 34k comments and climbing rapidly on their main live feed - very , very  dispiriting all the hate spewing out there - you feel like the bomber(s) knew exactly what they were doing.


----------



## EastEnder (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> Like a horrific car crash, I just _had_ to look. Uuuuugggghhh...


Same here, grotesque doesn't come close....


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

phillm said:


> Made the mistake of visiting Breibart as you do 34k comments and climbing rapidly on their main live feed - very , very  dispiriting all the hate spewing out there - you feel like the bomber(s) knew exactly what they were doing.


I used to be a habitual Breitbart reader, just to see what "the enemy" was up to. Their comments are a putrid cesspool at the best of times, even by the usual standards of internet commenters.


----------



## Sprocket. (May 23, 2017)

Heartbreaking and numbing attack on joy filled innocents.
So sad.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

People with school-age children, are you planning to talk about this with them ? What do you do? I wouldn't know at all, seems impossible.


----------



## Sweet FA (May 23, 2017)

Advice if you're upset by the news - CBBC Newsround


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> People with school-age children, are you planning to talk about this with them ? What do you do? I wouldn't know at all, seems impossible.


I'm wondering this myself bimble - I half-expected The Girl to come home having had a minute's silence. She'll certainly get the lowdown tomorrow from all her classmates and I was wondering if it had better be me to try and explain the unexplainable rather than have other parents' takes - whatever they may be - get to her first.


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> People with school-age children, are you planning to talk about this with them ? What do you do? I wouldn't know at all, seems impossible.



I'm considering slipping it in between a detailed account of twentieth-century European history, focusing on the early 1940s, and a realistic assessment of the impact on climate change of repeatedly switching off all the lights in the house, while others are trying to use them.


----------



## aqua (May 23, 2017)

When the bataclan attack happened pickles school talked about it in assembly and in class. I'm sure they're going to do the same today too.

For me (she's 6) whether I like it or not this is the world she knows and I want to help her make sense of it as much as she can, not to understand the motives as such, more that shit like this does and will happen and how she can best navigate her world. So, like last time, I'll take her lead and answer any questions to the best I can in a way she understands.

Though doing it without using the words fucking, cunts and anything else is really hard.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> he repeatedly switches off all the lights in the house


 Please, please tell me your secret!


----------



## BigTom (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> I'm wondering this myself bimble - I half-expected The Girl to come home having had a minute's silence. She'll certainly get the lowdown tomorrow from all her classmates and I was wondering if it had better be me to try and explain the unexplainable rather than have other parents' takes - whatever they may be - get to her first.



Manchester terror attack should not be hidden from children, say psychiatrists

advice from psychiatrists


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Please, please tell me your secret!



It only happens when other people are still trying to use them.


----------



## killer b (May 23, 2017)

I just picked up my kids, they both had been told at school, and seem relatively unconcerned so far. Ive done a little probing but I think it's probably best to let the kids lead on talking about it really.


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> I remember someone in Belfast (I'll have to say no more, as I don't want to out anyone) saying that in the old days people in West Belfast would leave their front doors unlocked at night, so that volunteers running from your lot would be able to escape. This person was telling me this to highlight the contrast between then and now: by the time I heard this story, everyone in WB was keeping their front doors firmly locked at night.




Its was also one of the signs the game was up as doors traditionally open were locked as people were tried of the "war"

Once in west germany politely knocked on some unfortuante germans front door when he opened we ran through his house to escape a rather angry panzer battalion we had annoyed.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit.
> 
> Fucking wanker.


what got to me were the footage i saw of who I presume to be parents standing and watching kids streaming down the stairs in panic. Imagine how that must feel, looking out for your kid in the crowd and not finding them. Horrific.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 23, 2017)

likesfish said:


> Its was also one of the signs the game was up as doors traditionally open were locked as people were tried of the "war"
> 
> Once in west germany politely knocked on some unfortuante germans front door when he opened we ran through his house to escape a rather angry panzer battalion we had annoyed.


Hmmm. Well, the person who told me this story had it as a purely post-peace process thing. He wasn't a CR style loon, but he was no fan of Adams either.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 23, 2017)

Been working with primary school kids today, and I overheard a few of them talking about this attack. Talking about the number of casualties in a pretty flippant, neutral sort of way. Horrible to think of them growing up in a world where this is just a thing that happens sometimes. 

Of course when I was their age there were IRA attacks happening, and I suppose we would have talked about them in much the same way. Targetting kids though, that's a kind of evil we never really had to contemplate.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

Some conspiraloon that I occasionally skim on facebook for easy  lolz is now ramping up the false flag trope with illuminate, blood sacrifices and bumping claims that these people are not actually dead. Sickening parasitical fucks.


----------



## extra dry (May 23, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> Police raids in Whalley Range and Fallowfield, controlled explosion at the latter:



Going from the swift i.d of the bomber to police raids I believe the police already had this person on their radar.


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> what got to me were the footage i saw of who I presume to be parents standing and watching kids streaming down the stairs in panic. Imagine how that must feel, looking out for your kid in the crowd and not finding them. Horrific.



I'm avoiding turning on the tv till channel 4 news tonight.


----------



## Athos (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> People with school-age children, are you planning to talk about this with them ? What do you do? I wouldn't know at all, seems impossible.



Spoke to mine before school. Just so when the older boys start gobbing of about "pakis" on the bus, my girls can tell then to fuck off.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

BigTom said:


> Manchester terror attack should not be hidden from children, say psychiatrists
> 
> advice from psychiatrists


they'll change the advice in a few weeks


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

S☼I said:


> Please, please tell me your secret!


give your kid night vision equipment

next


----------



## 8den (May 23, 2017)

If people can donate blood, donation centre in South Manchester is Plymouth Grove, Manchester M13 9LL. Opens at 9am.


----------



## mauvais (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> If people can donate blood, donation centre in South Manchester is Plymouth Grove, Manchester M13 9LL. Opens at 9am.


Until you hear otherwise from official channels, they're oversubscribed and turning people away.


----------



## Plumdaff (May 23, 2017)

8den said:


> If people can donate blood, donation centre in South Manchester is Plymouth Grove, Manchester M13 9LL. Opens at 9am.



The Blood Service has enough at this time and is asking people to keep already booked appointments, especially if you are o negative, but to otherwise keep away until further notice.

eta. snap


----------



## likesfish (May 23, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Going from the swift i.d of the bomber to police raids I believe the police already had this person on their radar.




On the radio they said their was a list of approx 3000 people of "interest" presumably more than just liked one of choudrays facebook posts .
  Spooks dont have the resources to survill 3000 people constantly and even if they did its never ending apprantly it would be more worrying if the shitstain was completely unknown as he'd have no known accomplances


----------



## weltweit (May 23, 2017)

Homeless man 'pulls nails out of child's face' after rushing into Manchester arena in aftermath of attack

A couple of homeless men who helped the injured are being praised for their efforts.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Manchester concert suicide bomber is named | Daily Mail Online


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

There are some people on twitter (who seem to know what they are talking about) saying that evidence points to ISIS's claims of responsibility being of the after the effect type, the kind where they claim ownership of the act as part of their propaganda but seem to not have known what was going on. Their official channels alluded to multiple bombs and not to a suicide attack, they say.
I don't know how much this matters, whether it was planned with direct contact or just 'inspired by'.


----------



## Whagwan (May 23, 2017)

ISIS would claim responsibility if I farted in a crowded lift and it was reported on.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

On the bus home from work, a woman sitting behind me was explaining to her young daughter about the bad man.

Jeez.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Whagwan said:


> ISIS would claim responsibility if I farted in a crowded lift and it was reported on.


yeh with the noxious effect your guffs have they might be believed


----------



## extra dry (May 23, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Going from the swift i.d of the bomber to police raids I believe the police already had this person on their radar.




Manchester suicide bomber 'was known to security services'


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Manchester suicide bomber 'was known to security services'


they always are


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> People with school-age children, are you planning to talk about this with them ? What do you do? I wouldn't know at all, seems impossible.



How to talk to children about terrorist attacks - BBC News

Fairly straightforward and natural to me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

extra dry said:


> Manchester suicide bomber 'was known to security services'



Oh Christ, there's no need for the ES to use that fucking picture.


----------



## EastEnder (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh Christ, there's no need for the ES to use that fucking picture.


Those streaks of blood on the floor..... fucking grim


----------



## phillm (May 23, 2017)

It has been revealed that he was a Manchester United fan - it is beholden on all MUFC fans to roundly condemn his actions.


----------



## UrbaneFox (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Oh Christ, there's no need for the ES to use that fucking picture.


 I blame the Editor.


----------



## YouSir (May 23, 2017)

-


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 23, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> I've found myself wondering if the audience and the nature of the performance - vaguely sexualised post-disney pop for (pre)teens - somehow contributed to the perpetrators rationale by offending their puritanism. A reference to the venue as 'shameless' in Daesh's statement suggested as much, but then went on to describe the children they've killed as 'crusaders', which just leaves me feeling ridiculous for even trying to understand their world view.



I've wondered also about why that particular gig was targeted.

The audience going to the gig in Birmingham last week was young kids/kids with their parents, they were overwhelmingly working class and multi racial. 

Just as gay men offended the warped sensibilities of the murderer in Miami last year you do have to consider if it was the idea of young people, presumably including Muslim youth, coming together to listen to 'sexualised' music was the reason this gig was picked. 

As you say, trying to understand the motives of someone who has drifted so far from any basic system of moral values that they can do something so barbaric is probably pointless but their Stone Age  puritanism and desire to keep 'their' community untainted by western culture would in their eyes make this a legitimate target


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've wondered also about why that particular gig was targeted.
> 
> The audience going to the gig in Birmingham last week was young kids/kids with their parents, they were overwhelmingly working class and multi racial.
> 
> ...


Yeh. It's perhaps better if you see this for what it is, a provocation, than simply an end in itself. Don't know why you bring in stone age puritanism and untainted communities when they have no bearing on the matter at hand. George Bush's they hate us for our freedom in a fresh bottle.


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

There are people shouting about how this should be seen as a targeted attack on young women (because of the singer's fanbase). It's not helpful that stuff, probably could've been any concert or any crowded place.


----------



## YouSir (May 23, 2017)

-


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> There are people shouting about how this should be seen as a targeted attack on young women (because of the singer's fanbase). It's not helpful that stuff, probably could've been any concert or any crowded place.


Yeh. Well it almost certainly was targeted on young women as the easiest way to provoke the reaction they desire. Yeh, misogyny will have been part of the motivation, but as I say, the attack will have sought to produce a response.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

YouSir said:


> Yes. And if you confuse my comment for any disrespect, disdain or indifference towards the lost or those grieving for them then fuck off.


Smacks of stupidity mind


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I've wondered also about why that particular gig was targeted.
> 
> The audience going to the gig in Birmingham last week was young kids/kids with their parents, they were overwhelmingly working class and multi racial.
> 
> ...





Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. It's perhaps better if you see this for what it is, a provocation, than simply an end in itself. Don't know why you bring in stone age puritanism and untainted communities when they have no bearing on the matter at hand. George Bush's they hate us for our freedom in a fresh bottle.




Dunno if you watched this the other day: Isis: The Origins of Violence - On Demand - All 4 

Hard going, but opens eyes.


----------



## YouSir (May 23, 2017)

-


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

there was a screenshot of some sort of ISIS statement with some shit about "the shameless arena" being targeted but don't feel inclined to give it thread room


----------



## DotCommunist (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> There are people shouting about how this should be seen as a targeted attack on young women (because of the singer's fanbase). It's not helpful that stuff, probably could've been any concert or any crowded place.


part of the youth aspect of the victims gets people reaching for explanations. With grownups well, its tragic but we all know risks even if we don't ever think its going to be me or my mum or my mate. Somewhere in the back of your head you think about risks and you certainly understand mortality will come. thats what the delivery man kept saying this morning, 'kids..just kids..how could they know?'. I suppose we'll never get any sense of why this gig cos the rotten prick blew himself up as well but I don't think targetting children, females and males, was a coincidence. Maybe a target of opportunity. Who can say.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Dunno if you watched this the other day: Isis: The Origins of Violence - On Demand - All 4
> 
> Hard going, but opens eyes.


Yeh. Going all neolithick seems imo to detract from rather than add to the discussion. Btw, kilcullen's blood year well worth a read


----------



## Ranbay (May 23, 2017)

Have we had @janice4brexit tweets yet? She's calling for the death penalty to be brought back for suiced bombers........


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 23, 2017)

.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Going all neolithick seems imo to detract from rather than add to the discussion. Btw, kilcullen's blood year well worth a read



Think will give it all a miss tonight, thanks all the same!


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

ever since that Taliban school attack I've had a lurking dread of something similar here - let alone Beslan - this is hardly a new threshold being crossed


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Have we had @janice4brexit tweets yet? She's calling for the death penalty to be brought back for suiced bombers........


----------



## EastEnder (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> There are people shouting about how this should be seen as a targeted attack on young women (because of the singer's fanbase). It's not helpful that stuff, probably could've been any concert or any crowded place.


Indeed. I think it's probably crediting the perpetrator with an unwarranted degree of sophistication to assume their target was anything more than a random bunch of innocent people.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Yeah, trying to guess at why this particular concert is just not going to yield anything useful i think.
Seems the bloke who blew himself up was 22. Who knows maybe he'd watched lots of Ariane Grande's sexy videos on youtube (I'd never heard of her till today).


----------



## Cheesypoof (May 23, 2017)

So sad. I met a bunch of teenyboppers off to the 3Arena in Dublin on Saturday all dressed up and I couldnt help asking them who was performing. 'Ariana Grande!' they shrieked in excitement. I asked if she was a bit like Rhianna, and they said yes but better. I wished them a great night. It's horrific to think of innocent kids like this and their families being killed or injured in such an attack.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 23, 2017)

phillm said:


> It has been revealed that he was a Manchester United fan


Yeah right. What sort of fan would kill himself 2 days before his team is playing in a European final? Some fucking fan! 

Though clearly he was a different kind of fanatic.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> maybe he'd watched lots of Ariane Grande's sexy videos on youtube (I'd never heard of her till today).



things that make you feel old thread ----->


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> (I'd never heard of her till today).



Me neither.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 23, 2017)

> Police confirmed the 22-year-old’s identity after officials in the United States passed it to news reporters, apparently against the wishes of the police and security services in the UK.



Cunning 

Manchester Arena attacker named as Salman Ramadan Abedi


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> There are people shouting about how this should be seen as a targeted attack on young women (because of the singer's fanbase). It's not helpful that stuff, probably could've been any concert or any crowded place.





EastEnder said:


> Indeed. I think it's probably crediting the perpetrator with an unwarranted degree of sophistication to assume their target was anything more than a random bunch of innocent people.



So don't speculate. Unless you're going to speculate it was an idiot who could have picked anywhere, that's fine.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

they've got form for blowing UK operations :

Airliner bomb trial: George W. Bush took decision that triggered arrests


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 23, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Indeed. I think it's probably crediting the perpetrator with an unwarranted degree of sophistication to assume their target was anything more than a random bunch of innocent people.



and he lived locally.


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Just attended the vigil in St Albert's Square - the poem This Is The Place was read out by Longfella. It was quite a moment.


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Me neither.


Nor me.


----------



## Mr Moose (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> So don't speculate. Unless you're going to speculate it was an idiot who could have picked anywhere, that's fine.



Not sure why. A feature of many of the recent attacks across the world is that the targets have been deliberately chosen, the Bataclan, Parc de Princes, the club in Florida etc. If nothing else the bomber must have known he was attacking teenage pop fans but that was fine for him.


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> they've got form for blowing UK operations :
> 
> Airliner bomb trial: George W. Bush took decision that triggered arrests


Reading that you can understand why they did it tho!


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

Wookey said:


> View attachment 107494
> Just attended the vigil in St Albert's Square - the poem This Is The Place was read out by Longfella. It was quite a moment.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> So don't speculate. Unless you're going to speculate it was an idiot who could have picked anywhere, that's fine.


Speculation's what we do, cid. You've been round long enough to know that.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Edit 
Apologies. I thought better of that.


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Speculation's what we do, cid. You've been round long enough to know that.



I know, but it was the 'you shouldn't speculate about this' followed by immediate speculation.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Not sure why. A feature of many of the recent attacks across the world is that the targets have been deliberately chosen, the Bataclan, Parc de Princes, the club in Florida etc. If nothing else the bomber must have known he was attacking teenage pop fans but that was fine for him.


^
This.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


>



Fantastic response. A big FUCK YOU to the bomber and his kin.


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Not sure why. A feature of many of the recent attacks across the world is that the targets have been deliberately chosen, the Bataclan, Parc de Princes, the club in Florida etc. If nothing else the bomber must have known he was attacking teenage pop fans but that was fine for him.



And yeah, that.


----------



## EastEnder (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> So don't speculate. Unless you're going to speculate it was an idiot who could have picked anywhere, that's fine.


You just managed to single out the two people who _weren't_ speculating!


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> You just managed to single out the two people who _weren't_ speculating!



This:



> I think it's probably crediting the perpetrator with an unwarranted degree of sophistication to assume their target was anything more than a random bunch of innocent people.



Is speculation.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2017)

If it's a political act, then the target isn't random.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> I know, but it was the 'you shouldn't speculate about this' followed by immediate speculation.


This is no time for soundbites, I feel the hand of history on my shoulder


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> I know, but it was the 'you shouldn't speculate about this' followed by immediate speculation.


i did do that you're right.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

He fucking cunt was a "friendly chap" and a cyclist apparently. Not sure why I'm posting this. It doesn't help make any sense of it all. 

Manchester suicide bomber named


----------



## hot air baboon (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> This is no time for soundbites, I feel the hand of history on my shoulder



that bastard deserves to feel the hand of history squeezing his bollocks in a vice like grip as he's dragged to the Hague


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 23, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit.
> 
> Fucking wanker.



mate , you've just literally said what I've been trying to put into words for the last few hours, more than anything of this type ive ever experienced has made me feel , so dis-heartend with the world, angry and emotional , been on the verge of tears this last hour.

targeting kids ffs


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> So don't speculate. Unless you're going to speculate it was an idiot who could have picked anywhere, that's fine.


ISIS don't have views on music, the body, how young girls should comport themselves, etc. And if they did, that would have absolutely nothing to do with the random target and it would be mischievous speculation to suggest otherwise.


----------



## Kaka Tim (May 23, 2017)

Im sure he thought very carefully about his target.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was because they were  decadent young women, dressed inappropriately, dancing to immoral pop music.
Killing them delivers a double whammy of dealing the prophet's vengeance on the the evil west, whilst delivering punishment on the sinners.


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> i did do that you're right.



We're all inconsistent sometimes, nothing to worry about. But speculating is just something people do, long as it doesn't go off the wall I think it's a healthy way of trying to get a grasp on things.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> i did do that you're right.


Now you've seen the error of your ways you can start to make things right


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Kaka Tim said:


> Im sure he thought very carefully about his target.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if it was because they were  decadent young women, dressed inappropriately, dancing to immoral pop music.
> Killing them delivers a double whammy of dealing the prophet's vengeance on the the evil west, whilst delivering punishment on the sinners.


Yeh? Maybe that was part of it, but we're all targets too, yer man was trying to get us to respond to his provocation


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh? Maybe that was part of it, but we're all targets too, yer man was trying to get us to respond to his provocation


Who is yer man, do you reckon?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Who is yer man, do you reckon?


He's been named several times on this thread, chuck


----------



## planetgeli (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> I wish I could find some use for this raging fucking anger I have.



Educate yourself. I don't mean this in any condescending way. It may be the good old MSM BBC but there are worse places than here.

Islamic State group: The full story - BBC News

Camp Bucca. University of ISIS.

"Fucking anger" and rage is understandable but rarely productive. It's almost always the emotion used as an excuse by the same small minded idiots (NOT accusing you of this) who prefer to have their own (white) version of ISIS in retaliation to ISIS.

Far more difficult is to spend hours reading up on several sources to understand the situation. And yes, I'm damn sure there are people here who can come up with better ones than I have offered. 

Killing 8 year olds is only going to be applauded by psychopaths. And it all too readily brings to mind a response of revenge against "them". Which might even be ok if we know who "they" are. It might make even more sense if we know "why" they are.

I don't mean to disparage your anger. I only try to suggest a use where it might be turned, on reflection, into something more useful. 

Because these are dangerous times.


----------



## Dandred (May 23, 2017)

Salman Abedi

What a surprise!


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

dp


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> O
> I'm abroad on a crap internet connection. Please save me the bandwidth and name him. Who? Who is the mastermind behind all the jihadis?


I'm not sure you've really grasped the nature of the modern jihadi, chuck. Tell you what, spend a spot of time reading about them so we're all on the same page when you come back.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> "Fucking anger" and rage is understandable but rarely productive.


I am aware of that. I was just expressing my emotional response at the time. I think I'm reasonably educated over the issues and the background. If you felt no anger at all at any point, well, good for you.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

But here is someone who appears to have anger issues 

Birmingham vigil for Manchester attack 'interrupted by man with knife and baseball bat'


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Salman Abedi
> 
> What a surprise!


What's that supposed to mean?


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not sure you've really grasped the nature of the modern jihadi, chuck. Tell you what, spend a spot of time reading about them so we're all on the same page when you come back.


Not sure you've grasped the nature of sarcasm either. Not sure the nature of modern jihadism has much time for the nature of either thee or me, so please let's just forget the oneupmanship and get on with it. I'm on limited broadband (yeh, and patience) so wtf are you on about? AFAICT yer modern jihadi is typically a petty criminal recruited in jail and focused on a goal. Which likely involves glory and maidens.
Nah, I'm simplifying. what did you mean?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 23, 2017)

ruffneck23 said:


> mate , you've just literally said what I've been trying to put into words for the last few hours, more than anything of this type ive ever experienced has made me feel , so dis-heartend with the world, angry and emotional , been on the verge of tears this last hour.
> 
> targeting kids ffs



I wasn't angry until I consulted social media. The thing that depresses me is the ugly memes I see.  However many terrorists there are, there's another (probably larger) group of people just as willing to use the death of an 8-year-old girl to inspire hatred and conflict.  They just don't go to the trouble of actually blowing anyone up.

Does that make any sense?  It may not.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Cid said:


> We're all inconsistent sometimes, nothing to worry about. But speculating is just something people do, long as it doesn't go off the wall I think it's a healthy way of trying to get a grasp on things.


It's probably a natural instinct as you say, to try to 'get a grasp', make sense of the senseless thing. But speculating on why that particular crowd means trying to imagine your way inside the mind of a young man for whom blowing himself to bits and taking a bunch of strangers with him seemed the logical thing to do.
I suppose the real question is just a big Why but Why an Ariane Grande concert is kind of easier for the brain to deal with.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Not sure you've grasped the nature of sarcasm either. Not sure the nature of modern jihadism has much time for the nature of either thee or me, so please let's just forget the oneupmanship and get one with it. I'm on limited broadband (yeh, and patience) so wtf are you on about? AFAICT yer modern jihadi is typically a petty criminal recruited in jail and focused on a goal. Which likely involves glory and maidens.
> Nah, I'm simplifying. what did you mean?


Discounted sarcasm as thought lowest form of wit beneath this thread. See I was wrong. Oh well.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2017)

I haven't seen the je suis Manchester or my fb wall turning into the butchers apron as of yet. Is it now too commonplace?


----------



## Cid (May 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't seen the je suis Manchester or my fb wall turning into the butchers apron as of yet. Is it now too commonplace?



I'm seeing people with heart-shaped aprons bottom right on their profile pics. 'Manchester' across the central bar.


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't seen the je suis Manchester or my fb wall turning into the butchers apron as of yet. Is it now too commonplace?


That maybe cos we aren't a French speaking country!


----------



## planetgeli (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> I am aware of that. I was just expressing my emotional response at the time. I think I'm reasonably educated over the issues and the background. If you felt no anger at all at any point, well, good for you.



You asked for "some use" for your "raging fucking anger". I answered accordingly trying to tell you, to make it obvious, I was not condescending. 

If it makes you feel better to chuck sarcasm at me and to identify another nutter with mental health problems in Birmingham as if it hadn't occurred to you this problem might go beyond one single psychopath, well, that's your prerogative.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> You asked for "some use" for your "raging fucking anger". I answered accordingly trying to tell you, to make it obvious, I was not condescending.
> 
> If it makes you feel better to chuck sarcasm at me and to identify another nutter with mental health problems in Birmingham as if it hadn't occurred to you this problem might go beyond one single psychopath, well, that's your prerogative.


That's enough patronising projection from you for me today, thanks. I think there's more pressing things to talk about right now.


----------



## planetgeli (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> That's enough patronising projection from you for me today, thanks. I think there's more pressing things to talk about right now.



I haven't patronised you one bit. 

ISIS like to think they can affect political outcomes and people's opinions with their atrocities. They know fear and terror work well into making people abandon their values in the West. They know this leads more easily into an intrusive surveillance state and the abandonment of any pretence of values of liberty. 

And that's the only place naked "raging fucking anger" is going to lead.

Don't ask the question if you don't like the answer. I tried to be nothing but civil to you.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 23, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> I haven't patronised you one bit.
> 
> ISIS like to think they can affect political outcomes and people's opinions with their atrocities. They know fear and terror work well into making people abandon their values in the West. They know this leads more easily into an intrusive surveillance state and the abandonment of any pretence of values of liberty.
> 
> ...



Give it a rest ffs.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Wookey said:


> View attachment 107494
> Just attended the vigil in St Albert's Square - the poem This Is The Place was read out by Longfella. It was quite a moment.


I would have been on the far side of where you were standing. Amazed to see so many people there, we couldn't get close enough to hear the speakers.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Discounted sarcasm as thought lowest form of wit beneath this thread. See I was wrong. Oh well.


Oh fuck off PM. 
I'm usually ad idem with you but this time I'm twirling my finger in my ear and saying Quoi? At least can't we agree that this is an atrocity, and - tentatively - that the atrocity was targeted? Targeted at girls who were enjoying music and the pleasures of being young in their bodies? 

Oh great, we're doing the predictable urban entropy thing.   At least it's later than page 6. 
And, yanno, I think we mostly agree on the important things: the man who did this was an unmitigated shit and he deserved to die.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't seen the je suis Manchester or my fb wall turning into the butchers apron as of yet. Is it now too commonplace?


My Facebook has been deactivated for several months, but if Twitter is anything to go by it tends to be people having "I <3 MCR" (as first wheeled out during the 2011 riots) as their avatar. I was toying with having the city's coat of arms on as my avatar but didn't get round to it. Bees (being a symbol of the industriousness of the city) are also popular, such as this:



In a way I think it's more creative than just using the flag of the nation that's under attack.


----------



## chilango (May 23, 2017)

I like the bees too. A couple of variations have appeared from Mancs on my FB alongside uniiin jack hearts and I *heart* Mcr logos from others.


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

planetgeli said:


> ISIS like to think they can affect political outcomes and people's opinions with their atrocities. They know fear and terror work well into making people abandon their values in the West. They know this leads more easily into an intrusive surveillance state and the abandonment of any pretence of values of liberty.
> 
> And that's the only place naked "raging fucking anger" is going to lead.


Or it might just be a moment's anger expressed on the internet amongst friends. And that's fucking it. No wildly extrapolated "this is where it will lead" theories needed.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Targeted at girls who were enjoying music and the pleasures of being young in their bodies?


That sounds weirdly creepy to me


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> I would have been on the far side of where you were standing. Amazed to see so many people there, we couldn't get close enough to hear the speakers.



I ambled up about half an hour before the start and the square was already full.. At the end I realised all the streets around had filled up too, never seen that square so full even at new year, took me ten minutes to shuffle out again, when I was struck by the number of foreign accents around, Spanish, Americans, Germans. 

Your side was the gobbiest I must say.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

I didn't feel any anger today just a big sadness. Anger much better / healthier i reckon.


----------



## Tom A (May 23, 2017)

Wookey said:


> I ambled up about half an hour before the start and the square was already full.. At the end I realised all the streets around had filled up too, never seen that square so full even at new year, took me ten minutes to shuffle out again, when I was struck by the number of foreign accents around, Spanish, Americans, Germans.
> 
> Your side was the gobbiest I must say.


The best bit was when we were all chanting "MAN-CHEST-ER!". But there was definitely a diverse mix of all kinds of people there, which is to be welcomed, especially considering what a cosmopolitan city we live in.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> That sounds weirdly creepy to me


Nutty jihadis for you. I maybe went OTT in characterising their fetishism.


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Tom A said:


> The best bit was when we were all chanting "MAN-CHEST-ER!". But there was definitely a diverse mix of all kinds of people there, which is to be welcomed, especially considering what a cosmopolitan city we live in.



Yes, I kinda suspected we would do that! I hope they put that on the news. 

My highlight was that poem though, they ended Five Live's extended coverage with it this evening, was just special.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Wookey said:


> My highlight was that poem though, they ended Five Live's extended coverage with it this evening, was just special.


What poem? Do you have a link?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> What poem? Do you have a link?


Read the thread ffs


----------



## editor (May 23, 2017)

It's worth a repost


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Read the thread ffs


eh? If it's on a link I can't read it.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Oh fuck off PM.
> I'm usually ad idem with you but this time I'm twirling my finger in my ear and saying Quoi? At least can't we agree that this is an atrocity, and - tentatively - that the atrocity was targeted? Targeted at girls who were enjoying music and the pleasures of being young in their bodies?
> 
> Oh great, we're doing the predictable urban entropy thing.   At least it's later than page 6.
> And, yanno, I think we mostly agree on the important things: the man who did this was an unmitigated shit and he deserved to die.


You're one of the best posters on urban. But from my pov you're looking for a scrap, I don't know why. We don't seem to disagree. Let's move on in amity but speaking less French.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> eh? If it's on a link I can't read it.


You need to listen to and watch it


----------



## planetgeli (May 23, 2017)

editor said:


> Or it might just be a moment's anger expressed on the internet amongst friends. And that's fucking it.



"I do not mean to disparage your anger" post 566 (apologies for fucking up multiquote)

But you posed an interesting question and dilemma. I don't see why I'm being slated for trying to answer you politely. Urban eh?


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You're one of the best posters on urban. But from my pov you're looking for a scrap, I don't know why. We don't seem to disagree. Let's move on in amity but speaking less French.


No, honestly I'm not looking for a scrap. God I've got better things to do with my life than scrap on urban. I've just got a crap internet connection, that's all, and it makes me irritable. Soz. 
Et bon soirée.


----------



## bluescreen (May 23, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> You need to listen to and watch it


Ta, OU - am on limited internet so can't listen and watch anything.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 23, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Ta, OU - am on limited internet so can't listen and watch anything.


The poem is This Is The Place by Tony Walsh


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

That roar of spontaneous rousing noise from the crowd when he reads the bit about Emiline Pankhurst being from Manchester.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> That roar of spontaneous rousing noise from the crowd when he reads the bit about Emiline Pankhurst being from Manchester.


And ending as a tory


----------



## IC3D (May 23, 2017)

Mays giving it the stay cool everyone then. Oh no actually she's milking it. Strong and stable.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

IC3D said:


> Mays giving it the stay cool everyone then. Oh no actually she's milking it. Strong and stable.


Weak and wobbly


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

That's the threat level bumped up to "critical" - which means an attack may be imminent.

Hmmmm. 

And election campaigning is suspended, possibly until the weekend.

Hmmmm.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Article in Guardian published at 7.45pm:
"The joint terrorism analysis centre, which is housed in MI5 headquarters and brings together the UK agencies and police dealing with counter-terrorism,_ is not advising that the threat level be raised as a result of the Manchester attack from “severe”, the fourth highest ranking.._.. Moving it on to the fifth and highest level would only be done if the police and intelligence services feared another attack was imminent."


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

_Opportunitatem cape, _as no-one actually ever says.


----------



## Dogsauce (May 23, 2017)

Maybe they think there's a risk of reprisal attacks? That's one risk that will have increased.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

"Operation Tempura" is now in force.


or is that spelled wrong. Lets ask the Guardian's Home Affairs Editor.


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Maybe they think there's a risk of reprisal attacks? That's one risk that will have increased.



No idea, though it is odd that the statement specifically says that they are _replacing_ the police officers normally seen around Parliament, train stations etc. 

Perhaps urbs more familiar with France would confirm this, but I always thought Vigipirate patrols were in addition to normal police response?  I am 99% sure that the previous activation of the armed forces in London (edit: after it had been raised to critical) were "in addition to" rather than "replace"


----------



## bi0boy (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Article in Guardian published at 7.45pm:
> "The joint terrorism analysis centre, which is housed in MI5 headquarters and brings together the UK agencies and police dealing with counter-terrorism,_ is not advising that the threat level be raised as a result of the Manchester attack from “severe”, the fourth highest ranking.._.. Moving it on to the fifth and highest level would only be done if the police and intelligence services feared another attack was imminent."



"not advising" is code for "i have to write an article but i don't know what's going on"


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> "Operation Tempura" is now in force.
> 
> 
> or is that spelled wrong. Lets ask the Guardian's Home Affairs Editor.
> ...


Op tempura is where I order in loads of food


----------



## OneStrike (May 23, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> _Opportunitatem cape, _as no-one actually ever says.



I get the cynicism, understandable.  Its also possible that they have due reason, he worked/prayed at a mosque known for attracting radicals yet he slipped through the net, perhaps their actual targets have gone off-grid. They've been 'interviewing' his brother, ISIS have been stirring it with their press releases predicibly suggesting multiple bombs. 'Be on your guard because this could be about to pop' seems fair in any of the above circumstances. The political timing stinks but children have been massacred and i'd hope there are enough decent folk about, i'm sure there are.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> "Operation Tempura" is now in force.
> 
> 
> or is that spelled wrong. Lets ask the Guardian's Home Affairs Editor.
> ...



Homophones, near enough, and autocorrect is a bad combination when you need to quickly batter out copy on a phone.


----------



## Raheem (May 23, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> "not advising" is code for "i have to write an article but i don't know what's going on"



Looks like just normal English to me, I have to say.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> No idea, though it is odd that the statement specifically says that they are _replacing_ the police officers normally seen around Parliament, train stations etc.
> 
> Perhaps urbs more familiar with France would confirm this, but I always thought Vigipirate patrols were in addition to normal police response?  I am 99% sure that the previous activation of the armed forces in London were "in addition to" rather than "replace"


Tory grandstanding as they see the election momentum moving away from them


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Homophones, near enough, and autocorrect is a bad combination when you need to quickly batter out copy on a phone.


ye ok but .. which is it? Is it Tempura as in battered? Or Temperer ? I hope its Tempora as in 'o tempora o mores'?


----------



## bi0boy (May 23, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Looks like just normal English to me, I have to say.



compare "not advising that the threat level be raised" with "advising that the threat level is not raised".


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

OneStrike said:


> I get the cynicism, understandable.  Its also possible that they have due reason, he worked/prayed at a mosque known for attracting radicals yet he slipped through the net, perhaps their actual targets have gone off-grid. They've been 'interviewing' his brother, ISIS have been stirring it with their press releases predicibly suggesting multiple bombs. 'Be on your guard because this could be about to pop' seems fair in any of the above circumstances.



Yeah, I know. I'm not suggesting that this change in the alert level is wholly cynical, but I'm sure the decision to escalate has been made a little easier by what happened over the weekend, politically.


----------



## Raheem (May 23, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> compare "not advising that the threat level be raised" with "advising that the threat level is not raised".



Yes, they mean different things, but neither of them looks like code.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> ye ok but .. which is it? Is it Tempura as in battered? Or Tempora as in 'o tempora o mores'?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Yes, they mean different things, but neither of them looks like code.


Yeh, that's the beauty of the code


----------



## Raheem (May 23, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Maybe they think there's a risk of reprisal attacks? That's one risk that will have increased.



TM seems to have given the reason in her speech outside number 10.



> it is a possibility we cannot ignore that there is a wider group of individuals linked to this attack.



So, it's the precautionary principle, basically.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> ye ok but .. which is it? Is it Tempura as in battered? Or Temperer ? I hope its Tempora as in 'o tempora o mores'?


Yes


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Raheem said:


> TM seems to have given the reason in her speech outside number 10.
> 
> So, it's the precautionary principle, basically.


Sure. But in this country we are not at all used to seeing soldiers on the streets. It is going to set a certain 'tone' for as long as it goes on and a cynical person might think that this atmosphere would possibly be helpful to selling 'strong and stable leadership'.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Sure. But in this country we are not at all used to seeing soldiers on the streets. It is going to set a certain 'tone' for as long as it goes on and a cynical person might think that this atmosphere would possibly be helpful to selling 'strong and stable leadership'.





Pickman's model said:


> Tory grandstanding as they see the election momentum moving away from them


----------



## OneStrike (May 23, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Yeah, I know. I'm not suggesting that this change in the alert level is wholly cynical, but I'm sure the decision to escalate has been made a little easier by what happened over the weekend, politically.


Suspect we broadly agree.  The timing stinks but I still have hope that the Westminster mob don't have full sway over how these events roll, naive possibly.


----------



## weltweit (May 23, 2017)

After my post about a helpful homeless man removing nails from a girl's legs and face I have been informed by someone who works in the NHS that you shouldn't do that because there could be severed blood vessels and removing an embedded object could cause serious bleeding or worse.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> That's the threat level bumped up to "critical" - which means an attack may be imminent.
> 
> Hmmmm.
> 
> ...


Perhaps they should reduce it ?


----------



## Raheem (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Sure. But in this country we are not at all used to seeing soldiers on the streets. It is going to set a certain 'tone' for as long as it goes on and a cynical person might think that this atmosphere would possibly be helpful to selling 'strong and stable leadership'.



Yes. I'd put myself slightly above average in terms of cynicism, and I think that. I also think it possible that TM has acted illegally, because the wording in the definition of "critical" looks like it implies that there is positive evidence of a specific threat. I would suppose that she's probably shielded by the Official Secrets Act, though.


----------



## mrs quoad (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> ye ok but .. which is it? Is it Tempura as in battered? Or Temperer ? I hope its Tempora as in 'o tempora o mores'?


Confused this with O Fortuna, and briefly thought it was all getting surprisingly Orff.


----------



## agricola (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Sure. But in this country we are not at all used to seeing soldiers on the streets. It is going to set a certain 'tone' for as long as it goes on and a cynical person might think that this atmosphere would possibly be helpful to selling 'strong and stable leadership'.



If they really think that, then they are even more incompetent than is known.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

weltweit said:


> After my post about a helpful homeless man removing nails from a girl's legs and face I have been informed by someone who works in the NHS that you shouldn't do that because there could be severed blood vessels and removing an embedded object could cause serious bleeding or worse.


Yeh, they could be blocking a vein or artery, stopping you bleeding out, and removing it could make matters worse.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> If they really think that, then they are even more incompetent than is known.


There is no limit to their incompetence


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

weltweit said:


> After my post about a helpful homeless man removing nails from a girl's legs and face I have been informed by someone who works in the NHS that you shouldn't do that because there could be severed blood vessels and removing an embedded object could cause serious bleeding or worse.


Did it ?


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> If they really think that, then they are even more incompetent than is known.


Do you not think that soldiers on the streets might cause more people to vote for Mrs strong and stable let me steer you through these choppy waters May?


----------



## weltweit (May 23, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Did it ?


I don't know. I don't believe it did though.


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

It looks like the correct spelling is operation Temperer. How British.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

Just realised that I have gone from being depressed and sad about this attack to being angry. In fact very angry.


----------



## kebabking (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Do you not think that soldiers on the streets might cause more people to vote for Mrs Strong and stable let me steer you through these choppy waters May?



difficult one to answer - it could have the effect you suggest, and i wouldn't bet against it, or it could go the other way. up until very recently in Ireland, the Army did the armed protection work for cash deliveries because there are/were so few armed Gardai - whenever i went to Ireland and saw armed soldiers (to my mind) doing a basic policing task, i assumed i'd got the wrong flight and landed, not in a first world European state, but in some tin pot banana republic with coups happening every fortnight. 

i'm very much looking forward to OP DENY SUMMER, rearanging holidays could be a bit of a pain, but if some duty were to occur that prevented me from fitting a new bathroom during half-term, i'd meet it with stoical patriotism...


----------



## DotCommunist (May 23, 2017)

.


----------



## Smoking kills (May 23, 2017)

weltweit said:


> After my post about a helpful homeless man removing nails from a girl's legs and face I have been informed by someone who works in the NHS that you shouldn't do that because there could be severed blood vessels and removing an embedded object could cause serious bleeding or worse.


Indeed. Proper first aid training saves lives.


----------



## The39thStep (May 23, 2017)

This I think is potentially the next key issue:



> Due to the complexity of the bomb produced by Abedi, it is thought that there could be a network of collaborators
> t


----------



## eoin_k (May 23, 2017)

Including this fucking tragedy and 7/7, the death toll of political violence by non-state actors in Britain over the past decade has been less than 100 lives - less than 1 per month. Leave these two events out and its a handful of people over a ten-year period: each death a personal tragedy no doubt, but is this really the basis for calling a state of emergency?


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> Including this fucking tragedy and 7/7, the death toll of political violence by non-state actors in Britain over the past decade has been less than 100 lives - less than 1 per month. Leave these two events out and its a handful of people over a ten-year period: each death a personal tragedy no doubt, but is this really the basis for calling a state of emergency?



Careful! Next thing you know we'll be putting this in some sort of perspective!


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

It is really not normal this 5,000 soldiers on the streets of the UK that's just been announced.
Operation Temperer is a newly devised thing never implemented before.
It says here that soldiers haven't been put into civilian areas of the UK as a response to terrorist threats since 2003, when Blair sent tanks to guard some airports.


----------



## 1927 (May 23, 2017)

Isn't it quite possible that the government and MI5 etc are aware of further planned attacks that they aren't able to tell us about that leads them to believe that another attack is imminent?


----------



## bimble (May 23, 2017)

Yes it is. But is deploying 5,000 soldiers the usual response to thinking there's an imminent attack planned? It's not, because loads of plots have been stopped in recent years without this new measure being triggered.


----------



## Wookey (May 23, 2017)

Could it just be a strong and stable gesture I wonder....


----------



## free spirit (May 23, 2017)

bimble said:


> Yes it is. But is deploying 5,000 soldiers the usual response to thinking there's an imminent attack planned? It's not, because loads of plots have been stopped in recent years without this new measure being triggered.


Previously they've deployed tanks at heathrow. It's mostly a spectacle designed to make us both feel scared and reassured that the politicians are doing something about it. Election campaigning basically.


----------



## Wilf (May 23, 2017)

Having troops on the streets could have some bearing on the sort of terrorism where 3 gunmen walk into a town and start shooting. It has no relevance whatsoever to the sort seen last night.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Just realised that I have gone from being depressed and sad about this attack to being angry. In fact very angry.



Angry with whom?


----------



## albionism (May 24, 2017)

Odd that so much info is coming from US officials.
"US officials say it was a suicide bomding"
"US officials have named the attacker as Salman Abedi"
What's all that about then?


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2017)

> The Guardian understands a national police mobilisation has also been triggered, being run by the National Police Coordination Centre. The centre will find extra officers from around the UK - for example from county forces in mainly rural areas - to be deployed to sites in Manchester, London and other big cities.
> 
> The decision to raise the terrorist threat level to critical – the highest – can lead to extra officers being drafted in to patrol areas assessed as vulnerable to attack, under mutual arrangements between the 43 police in England and Wales.



So, lots of rural police forces arriving in cities, bit like the big demos.


----------



## Ax^ (May 24, 2017)

so martial law before an election

strong and stable leadership




ffs the IRA blew up half of Manchester.. without troops being on the streets in the aftermath


----------



## Cid (May 24, 2017)

albionism said:


> Odd that so much info is coming from US officials.
> "US officials say it was a suicide bomding"
> "US officials have named the attacker as Salman Abedi"
> What's all that about then?



Them being sieve-like.


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> ffs the IRA blew up half of Manchester.. without troops being on the streets in the aftermath



What, so Manchester used to be twice the size it is now?


----------



## Ax^ (May 24, 2017)

oh do fuck off ...

troops on the streets .. mobilisation of the police force

it a crazy  idea and  clearly in retrospect to the reactions to previous campaigns  of theorist activity in this country 
an over reaction...

plus maybe a cynical move within a month of an election


"strong and stable"


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> oh do fuck off ...



Oh, I see. You were exaggerating so as to make a point that wouldn't be valid otherwise. I get it now. Apologies.


----------



## Ax^ (May 24, 2017)

if you are unfazed with the presence of soldiers on the street of the country you live in..

so be it


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 24, 2017)




----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> if you are unfazed with the presence of soldiers on the street of the country you live in..
> 
> so be it



Did I say that? But there's no denying that what happened yesterday is a bigger deal than the 1996 bombing, which actually didn't even destroy half a street in Manchester.


----------



## eoin_k (May 24, 2017)

Raheem said:


> What, so Manchester used to be twice the size it is now?



Since we're playing a game of wilfully obtuse pedantry, this seems to assume that there hasn't been any urban development in Manchester for over a quarter of a century: no Trafford Park, no Salford Quays, no rebuilding the Arndale Centre, no Deansgate Lock, no Commonwealth Games, no Urbis, no whatever the fuck has happened to Hulme...


----------



## eoin_k (May 24, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Did I say that? But there's no denying that what happened yesterday is a bigger deal than the 1996 bombing, which actually didn't even destroy half a street in Manchester.



As a single event perhaps, but the death toll also needs to be put in a context of a decade that has seen relatively low levels of political violence by non-state actors in Britain.


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> As a single event perhaps, but the death toll also needs to be put in a context of a decade that has seen relatively low levels of political violence by non-state actors in Britain.



I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the zero deaths caused by the IRA bomb should be adjusted for inflation?


----------



## 8115 (May 24, 2017)

albionism said:


> Odd that so much info is coming from US officials.
> "US officials say it was a suicide bomding"
> "US officials have named the attacker as Salman Abedi"
> What's all that about then?


Donald Trump has got a big gob. Apparently America released the name against the wishes of British intelligence which is a bit of a kick in the teeth. (Guardian reports).

I was angry and then I saw a photo of the alleged attacker, and I thought, he's just a kid whose life has been ruined along with a load of other people.  What a tragedy.

I hope it was a one off.

The use of bolts etc is just horrible, there should be some kind of fucking terrorist Geneva convention that bans it.


----------



## eoin_k (May 24, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I don't understand the point you're making. Are you saying that the zero deaths caused by the IRA bomb should be adjusted for inflation?



No, I'm suggesting that dealing with these clowns, however indiscriminate their violence, doesn't require the army to be deployed on the streets. In the circumstances, being sceptical of why this is happening seems entirely reasonable.


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> No, I'm suggesting that dealing with these clowns, however indiscriminate their violence, doesn't require the army to be deployed on the streets. In the circumstances, being sceptical of why this is happening seems entirely reasonable.



Which is a fair point, but I don't see how it relates to your previous comment.


----------



## 8115 (May 24, 2017)

eoin_k said:


> No, I'm suggesting that dealing with these clowns, however indiscriminate their violence, doesn't require the army to be deployed on the streets. In the circumstances, being sceptical of why this is happening seems entirely reasonable.


Yeah I'm really sceptical. It feels cheap to be so but I am. Also part of me is shouting "bit fucking late" although I know that predicting and preventing terror attacks must be very difficult.


----------



## 8115 (May 24, 2017)

I dunno, maybe it's better safe than sorry re: army deployed. Quite what use they will actually be, given that the last time there was a major terror attack in this country the only person to die afterwards in a terrorist related incident was a blameless Brazilian electrician.


----------



## Ax^ (May 24, 2017)

just reread your last post...


----------



## Opera Buffa (May 24, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> plus maybe a cynical move within a month of an election
> 
> 
> "strong and stable"



Yeah, that's my thought to be honest; Corbyn can be depicted as soft on terroism. 'He wants to negotiate,' etc.


----------



## maomao (May 24, 2017)

I reckon there's some sort of terrorism alert at the moment anyway. Canary Wharf has been crawling with armed plod the last few days (before Manchester bomb) anyway which is unusual.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 24, 2017)

8115 said:


> I dunno, maybe it's better safe than sorry re: army deployed. Quite what use they will actually be, given that the last time there was a major terror attack in this country the only person to die afterwards in a terrorist related incident was a blameless Brazilian electrician.



Did we ever find out whether it was militarised cops or undercover squaddies who shot him?

My recollection was that it was a (poorly coordinated) mix of the two who fucked it up.


----------



## likesfish (May 24, 2017)

The "plan" is to get the squaddies to stand around looking bored outside parliment and other key points so freeing armed police to wander about reassuring the public.

Because nohing makes me feel safer than a couple of coppers with guns .
  Trouble is these jihadi wankers are into mass random murder the provos really werent


----------



## likesfish (May 24, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Did we ever find out whether it was militarised cops or undercover squaddies who shot him?
> 
> My recollection was that it was a (poorly coordinated) mix of the two who fucked it up.



Survellience soldier went for a pee at the wrong moment and everything went to shit afterwards.


----------



## extra dry (May 24, 2017)

I think the troops being deployed is a step to keep the public calm/feel secure. 

 It may be a step to prevent vigilantly justice by groups of knuckle dragging thugs out to attack/kill Muslims.


----------



## Badgers (May 24, 2017)

extra dry said:


> I think the troops being deployed is a step to keep the public calm/feel secure.
> 
> It may be a step to prevent vigilantly justice by groups of knuckle dragging thugs out to attack/kill Muslims.


It may be because cuts to the police force mean they are unable to properly do their job.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 24, 2017)

Polish parents confirmed as killed as they waited to pick up their kids.the fucking cunt


----------



## Plumdaff (May 24, 2017)

Badgers said:


> It may be because cuts to the police force mean they are unable to properly do their job.



Yep. Preparations for the Champions League mean areas of Cardiff already look like a militarised zone, they're likely bringing coppers in from elsewhere for this. Plus all the other bank holiday and half term events going on. Deploying soldiers is a way of covering up the gaps while looking "strong".


----------



## J Ed (May 24, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Yep. Preparations for the Champions League mean areas of Cardiff already look like a militarised zone, they're likely bringing coppers in from elsewhere for this. Plus all the other bank holiday and half term events going on. Deploying soldiers is a way of covering up the gaps while looking "strong".



Wonder whether Labour will make this point during the next few weeks. Would be a big gamble.


----------



## Dandred (May 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> What's that supposed to mean?



Were you expecting it to be some called John Smith?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 24, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Wonder whether Labour will make this point during the next few weeks. Would be a big gamble.


It would be the height of folly. An open goal for the Tories to say _we're keeping the country safe and Labour are arguing against this - and y u no sport are troops_


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Did it ?


Weltweit is correct - it's a principle of first aid that you don't remove anything, because you can do as much damage extracting it as as been done by its arrival. AFAIK, even paramedics don't remove foreign bodies unless it's essential in order to stabilise the casualty for transport to hospital.


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Were you expecting it to be some called John Smith?


I can't speak for OU, but I was working quite hard not to jump to conclusions.


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

Morrissey took the opportunity to be a complete dick about things as usual, somewhat dribbling around the edges of what he would like to say.





> Celebrating my birthday in Manchester as news of the Manchester Arena bomb broke. The anger is monumental.
> For what reason will this ever stop?
> 
> Theresa May says such attacks "will not break us", but her own life is lived in a bullet-proof bubble, and she evidently does not need to identify any young people today in Manchester morgues. Also, "will not break us" means that the tragedy will not break her, or her policies on immigration. The young people of Manchester are already broken - thanks all the same, Theresa. Sadiq Khan says "London is united with Manchester", but he does not condemn Islamic State - who have claimed responsibility for the bomb. The Queen receives absurd praise for her 'strong words' against the attack, yet she does not cancel today's garden party at Buckingham Palace - for which no criticism is allowed in the Britain of free press. Manchester mayor Andy Burnham says the attack is the work of an "extremist". An extreme what? An extreme rabbit?
> In modern Britain everyone seems petrified to officially say what we all say in private. Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims. How easy to be unafraid when one is protected from the line of fire. The people have no such protections.



Fuck off with your 'what we all say in private'.


----------



## bimble (May 24, 2017)

Morrissey in 'well that's depressing' shocker.


----------



## Dr. Furface (May 24, 2017)

elbows said:


> Morrissey took the opportunity to be a complete dick about things as usual, somewhat dribbling around the edges of what he would like to say.
> 
> 
> Fuck off with your 'what we all say in private'.



He seems to have conveniently forgotten about Jo Cox with his line about 'Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims'. There are many other examples down the years too, here and elsewhere. 

Really puerile comment about what Andy Burnham said too.


----------



## LiamO (May 24, 2017)

8115 said:


> I hope it was a one off.



Unfortunately it won't be. These attacks will be a fact of life for many years to come.



8115 said:


> The use of bolts etc is just horrible, there should be some kind of fucking terrorist Geneva convention that bans it.



Why? These kids were not just the victims of this atrocity - they were the deliberate targets. If your aim is to  spread abject terror, fear and rage then deliberately blowing up a load of young kids, using the most barbaric weaponry, is a perversely perfect way to get straight to the heart/soul/mind of anybody who has one.

From the Jihadist point of view this attack - and the response to it - is a massive success. One 'useful idiot' (I have no doubt the Jihadis discovered his name via the media, same as th erest of us) using a home-made bomb that probably cost a couple of hundred quid has created all this havoc.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Badgers said:


> It may be because cuts to the police force mean they are unable to properly do their job.


Ah but the streets can be flooded with cops to reassure people


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> so martial law before an election
> 
> strong and stable leadership
> 
> ...


Of course it's cynical.

And it's a decision only a government can take. Labour can't, because they aren't in power. So of course they can be framed as soft and yielding - and of course their leader is an IRA sympathiser, don't you know.

I really hope - and I hate saying this becuase it's fucking awful - this doesn't win the tories the election.


----------



## albionism (May 24, 2017)

This geezer brought a tear to my eye this morning.


----------



## A380 (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah but the streets can be flooded with cops to reassure people


Except they can't anymore because the government cut 20% of them. That's what the army are doing, trying to fill the gaps.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


>


To be completely honest, I don't see what not selling arms to the Saudis would do, unless we were their only source of arms which we are not. Wouldn't it be something of an empty gesture. If they're going to buy them anyway why not buy British ones which helps the economy and there's tax revenue from that  which benefits people from the UK.


----------



## bimble (May 24, 2017)

DM is ecstatic.


 
 Comments along the lines of 'thank god Corbyns not in charge we'd be fighting terrorists by handing out flowers'.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 24, 2017)

albionism said:


> This geezer brought a tear to my eye this morning.




Yeah that just got me as well.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

A380 yeh, that's why they put a load of plod on the street yesterday, other days *since* the cuts, every time someone's stabbed for example, they take cops off their work and send them to walk the streets to show people the stable door's been shut. Weren't cops guarding soldiers at Buckingham palace just a couple of months back in case of attack?


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

The thing about Morrisey, is a just needs a better mental strategy to deal with these terrorist attack.  He is getting too emotionally involved, the trick is not to see terrorism, blank it out, it happens and then forget about it as soon as possible.  Also another way, is to think of terrorism as one would a natural disaster.  For example if a ferry sank in a freak storm, it would be very sad and tragic if people died but one wouldn't feel angry at the sea. This is a better way to look at terrorism.  If Morrisey employed these strategies people wouldn't think he was a total and utter racist.  Awful generalisation he used as well, that was really disgusting.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

bimble said:


> DM is ecstatic.
> View attachment 107543
> 
> View attachment 107544
> Comments along the lines of 'thank god Corbyns not in charge we'd be fighting terrorists by handing out flowers'.


Of course I bet they provide no solutions, just WE CANT GO ON LIKE THIS shit.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> To be completely honest, I don't see what not selling arms to the Saudis would do, unless we were their only source of arms which we are not. Wouldn't it be something of an empty gesture. If they're going to buy them anyway why not buy British ones which helps the economy and there's tax revenue from that  which benefits people from the UK.


Are you serious?


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

A380 said:


> Except they can't anymore because the government cut 20% of them. That's what the army are doing, trying to fill the gaps.


And if Corbyn points that out he will be accused of capitalising on suffering


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Are you serious?


Well I've not given it vast thought but I thought it was logical and I also hear they buy a lot of Rolls-Royces.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 24, 2017)

All coming out of the woodwork now.


----------



## 1927 (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> I also hear they buy a lot of Rolls-Royces.


That's good news for the German economy then!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> To be completely honest, I don't see what not selling arms to the Saudis would do, unless we were their only source of arms which we are not. Wouldn't it be something of an empty gesture. If they're going to buy them anyway why not buy British ones which helps the economy and there's tax revenue from that  which benefits people from the UK.


Oh just fuck off.


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 107551
> 
> All coming out of the woodwork now.



tbf she came out of it a long time ago, if she was ever in it.


----------



## 8den (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> To be completely honest, I don't see what not selling arms to the Saudis would do, unless we were their only source of arms which we are not. Wouldn't it be something of an empty gesture. If they're going to buy them anyway why not buy British ones which helps the economy and there's tax revenue from that  which benefits people from the UK.



Is it an "empty gesture" not to sell munitions to a brutal regime waging a vicious war killing thousands of people?


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 24, 2017)

> The prime minister said soldiers would be placed in key public locations to support armed police in protecting the *public*. These include *Buckingham Palace, Downing Street, embassies and the Palace of Westminster*.



My bold


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> If Morrisey wasn't a total and utter racist, people wouldn't think he was a total and utter racist.


Fix'd


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Oh just fuck off.


What if they need to protect themselves from racists?


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

8den said:


> Is it an "empty gesture" not to sell munitions to a brutal regime waging a vicious war killing thousands of people?


I think we tried imposing regime change in the Middle East before.  Also isn't Saudi Arabia home to Mecca Islam's most holy site, Allah has blessed it such, so can't it defend itself? Just thinking out loud really.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 107551
> 
> All coming out of the woodwork now.


Quite, internment such a success last time round


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

1927 said:


> That's good news for the German economy then!


Oh yes, and we get to do our bit for Europe


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

Saw the Civil Nuclear Constabulary out in full force yesterday by one of the coastal power stations. Never seen them there before. They were sitting in their 4x4 watching dog walkers. It must be the most boring police job in the UK. "In 2016, I made no arrests, in 2015 I made no arrests, in 2014 I made no arrests, in 2013 I arrested that naked guy by the sand dunes. In 2012 I made no arrests, in 2011 I made no arrests, in 2010 there was that incident with the seagull. In 2009 I made no arrests, I mean I could go on..."


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

GMP: three arrests in South Manchester following raids


----------



## bemused (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 107551
> 
> All coming out of the woodwork now.



You'd think they would be out of breath blowing that dog whistle 24/7


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 24, 2017)

bimble said:


> DM is ecstatic.
> View attachment 107543
> 
> View attachment 107544
> Comments along the lines of 'thank god Corbyns not in charge we'd be fighting terrorists by handing out flowers'.



Some kids are murdered in Manchester, so they respond by increasing protection around the most protected bits of London. 

Strong and stable.


----------



## bmd (May 24, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> He seems to have conveniently forgotten about Jo Cox with his line about 'Politicians tell us they are unafraid, but they are never the victims'. There are many other examples down the years too, here and elsewhere.
> 
> Really puerile comment about what Andy Burnham said too.



You're right about Jo Cox. That said, I find myself nodding at his comments about how politicians do seem to talk some utter shite at times like these. People have died. All the Churchillian drivel doesn't really address people's fears.


----------



## Dandred (May 24, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I can't speak for OU, but I was working quite hard not to jump to conclusions.



I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I'm just not surprised it was yet another muslim fucktard doing this kind of shit.


----------



## B.I.G (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I'm just not surprised it was yet another muslim fucktard doing this kind of shit.



You are a massive prick.


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2017)

> * I’m an emergency planner. Manchester shows we need new ways to heal *
> Lucy Easthope
> Perhaps ‘business as usual’ should no longer be the top priority after such an attack. As the terror threat rises, people need space to admit how much this hurts
> 
> I’m an emergency planner. Manchester shows we need new ways to heal | Lucy Easthope



Powerful article by an very experienced emergency planner asserting that "business as usual, "we will prevail" etc are not always the best first response and that anger, a time for mourning, is necessary.

Also, that the 'spontaneous' vigil, etc is often anything but.


----------



## EastEnder (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I'm just not surprised it was yet another muslim fucktard doing this kind of shit.


If he'd been a Christian fundamentalist, would you've felt the need to call him a Christian fucktard?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> Powerful article by an very experienced emergency planner asserting that "business as usual, "we will prevail" etc are not always the best first response and that anger, a time for mourning, is necessary.
> 
> Also, that the 'spontaneous' vigil, etc is often anything but.


But what do you think?


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> Powerful article by an very experienced emergency planner asserting that "business as usual, "we will prevail" etc are not always the best first response and that anger, a time for mourning, is necessary.
> 
> Also, that the 'spontaneous' vigil, etc is often anything but.



The last thing we need to grant these perpetrators are days of national mourning. Treat it like a bus crash - people who aren't involved don't need to get involved.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> The last thing we need to grant these perpetrators are days of national mourning. Treat it like a bus crash - people who aren't involved don't need to get involved.


Why wouldn't you help people involved in a bus crash?


----------



## Dandred (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> If he'd been a Christian fundamentalist, would you've felt the need to call him a Christian fucktard?



Anyone who believes in a fake magic man in the sky is a fucktard.


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I'm just not surprised it was yet another muslim fucktard doing this kind of shit.


Well, statistically speaking you had a pretty good chance of being right, but it's still jumping to conclusions in my view. Is "being right" so important that it's worth reinforcing a mindset that says "Terrorist = Muslim"?


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> Powerful article by an very experienced emergency planner asserting that "business as usual, "we will prevail" etc are not always the best first response and that anger, a time for mourning, is necessary.
> 
> Also, that the 'spontaneous' vigil, etc is often anything but.


I'm not a fan of empty gestures, but the vigil yesterday seemed like the right thing to do. Not mawkish, just an opportunity for people to express how they felt by coming together.


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Anyone who believes in a fake magic man in the sky is a fucktard.


I don't believe in fake magic men in the sky, but I no longer believe that anyone else who does is a fucktard. It's an aspect of human nature to look for meaning beyond the mundane reality of life, and it's inevitable that, for a large chunk of the human race, that meaning will be found in the notion of a deity. To simply write off that entire slice of humanity as "fucktards" is...well, it's a bit of a fucktard thing to do, IMO.


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Why wouldn't you help people involved in a bus crash?



People who help are involved. People who aren't involved and just consume the news don't need a national mourning day.


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Anyone who believes in a fake magic man in the sky is a fucktard.


Pointless post.


----------



## Sweet FA (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Allah has blessed it such, so can't it defend itself? Just thinking out loud really.


Nope. Not sure what it is you're doing, but actual thinking clearly isn't involved.


----------



## EastEnder (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Anyone who believes in a fake magic man in the sky is a fucktard.


I think you missed the point a bit, I wasn't objecting to the fucktard bit. Calling him a Muslim fucktard reinforces the association between Islam and terrorism. And whilst there is a definite association, the fact is there's 1.6 _billion_ Muslims in the world, the vast, *VAST*, majority of whom are as much a terrorist as you or I.


----------



## TopCat (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> If he'd been a Christian fundamentalist, would you've felt the need to call him a Christian fucktard?


I would have!!


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I don't believe in fake magic men in the sky, but I no longer believe that anyone else who does is a fucktard. It's an aspect of human nature to look for meaning beyond the mundane reality of life, and it's inevitable that, for a large chunk of the human race, that meaning will be found in the notion of a deity. To simply write off that entire slice of humanity as "fucktards" is...well, it's a bit of a fucktard thing to do, IMO.


... and whether or not the cunt who did this calls himself a Muslim (looks like he almost certainly did), this wasn't an act inspired by _theology_.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> People who help are involved. People who aren't involved and just consume the news don't need a national mourning day.


Why wouldn't you help?


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 24, 2017)

As an aside, I was utterly fucking appalled at the picture on yesterdays heinous evening standard -  badly pixellated bodies and blood trails where bodies had been moved. Utterly disgraceful, exploitative given many people were unaware of the situation with their loved ones. So I did wrote one of them complaints to the Independent Press Standards Organisation / IPSO about it

Appears that the Standard is not a member so the IPSO cannot do fuck all about it


----------



## treelover (May 24, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm not a fan of empty gestures, but the vigil yesterday seemed like the right thing to do. Not mawkish, just an opportunity for people to express how they felt by coming together.



I agree, the tone was just right as well, Longfella' etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> As an aside, I was utterly fucking appalled at the picture on yesterdays heinous evening standard -  badly pixellated bodies and blood trails where bodies had been moved. Utterly disgraceful, exploitative given many people were unaware of the situation with their loved ones. So I did wrote one of them complaints to the Independent Press Standards Organisation / IPSO about it
> 
> Appears that the Standard is not a member so the IPSO cannot do fuck all about it


That is because the standard has no standards


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Wilf said:


> ... and whether or not the cunt who did this calls himself a Muslim (looks like he almost certainly did), this wasn't an act inspired by _theology_.


I quite agree. It's an act inspired by hate, and few if any theologies are based on hate. The hate comes from circumstance, and the marginalisation and monstering of Muslims in general creates circumstances that make it possible for people vulnerable to manipulation to be groomed into hate, and to do terrible things with it. In the _name_ of theology, but, as you say, with nothing at all to do with that theology, beyond after-the-fact attempts to comb scripture for excuses to do it.

And Christian/Jewish/whatever belief systems are as capable of being misused in that way as Islamic ones.


----------



## Dandred (May 24, 2017)

Is anyone generally surprised it was another muslim doing this shit again?


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

Nice response to the attack cartoon by the excellent David Squires. Perfectly judged.
David Squires on … Manchester, a city united


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Is anyone generally surprised it was another muslim doing this shit again?


This is just a pointless line of bile. Was the war in Ireland all about 'another Catholic/Protestant doing this shit again'?  If you want a literal answer, no I wasn't surprised, but you don't just turn your brain off at that point.  The person(s) who did this are entirely responsible for what they have done.  But the background isn't some fucking religious war or 'battle of civilisations', it's money, power, oil and centuries of geo-politics.  And to be clear, that background doesn't go one inch towards justifying mass murder (on either side, fwiw).


----------



## emanymton (May 24, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> You are a massive prick.


One of those rare moments when I agree 100% with B.I.G.


----------



## killer b (May 24, 2017)

you going to sack this freak off yet guys?


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Is anyone generally surprised it was another muslim doing this shit again?


No. But I don't see any benefit in using that probability to simply reinforce the link between the ideas of Muslims and terrorism. The only thing it gives you is odds you'd happily bet on, but it takes away far more.

In the 1980s, I was on a Tube train when a young black man got on, grabbed the necklace of the woman sitting by the door and pulled it off her, then jumped back off the train before the doors closed. For a long time after that, every time I saw a young black man get on a train or bus, my immediate reaction was "who's he going to rob?". It is easy to slip into that trap and worse, and there are plenty of examples of unpleasantness where people make the assumption that, because one (in this case) young black man commits a robbery, every single young black man represents a threat. You are at risk of falling into that trap.

And, 30 years later, quite a few of them spent in London and travelling on tubes and buses, I have never seen anyone, young black man or not, commit a similar robbery. I have, however, seen thousands of young black men getting on and off those tubes and buses, completely without incident.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> Angry with whom?


At the time a lot of things. Manchester has been my city for thirty years, that cowardly monstrous nature of the crime, the just accept terrorism as part of these things that happen mentality, the fact that by and large the lefts response over the years to Islamism and Islamic terrorism has been to blame marginalisation, racism or imperialism rather than to call them out for the reactionary fascists they are, the fact that these people stand completely opposed to the very principles that those of us in the working class fought for. Lots of things , at times quite overwhelming.Anyway todays another day.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Is anyone generally surprised it was another muslim doing this shit again?


You thick muppet


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

Was Trump right? Are these people sad losers who couldn't have a normal life if they wanted - in the vein of Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan?


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

8den said:


> Is it an "empty gesture" not to sell munitions to a brutal regime waging a vicious war killing thousands of people?


I don't think the West can judge, because America has Donald Trump who is basically a modern day Hitler and one of the most evil people alive today.


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> At the time a lot of things. Manchester has been my city for thirty years, that cowardly monstrous nature of the crime, the just accept terrorism as part of these things that happen mentality, the fact that by and large the lefts response over the years to Islamism and Islamic terrorism has been to blame marginalisation, racism or imperialism rather than to call them out for the reactionary fascists they are, the fact that these people stand completely opposed to the very principles that those of us in the working class fought for. Lots of things , at times quite overwhelming.Anyway todays another day.



In terms of timing, it's interested that you posted that, just after I posted this:


> This is just a pointless line of bile. Was the war in Ireland all about 'another Catholic/Protestant doing this shit again'? If you want a literal answer, no I wasn't surprised, but you don't just turn your brain off at that point. The person(s) who did this are entirely responsible for what they have done. But the background isn't some fucking religious war or 'battle of civilisations', it's money, power, oil and centuries of geo-politics. And to be clear, that background doesn't go one inch towards justifying mass murder (on either side, fwiw).



The thing is I agree with you in terms of the left escaping from the confines of state multiculturalism and being able to condemn practices that are oppressive (in fact how fucked up would it be if the left _didn't_ condemn oppressive ideas and practices - wherever they are to be found).  It's about creating a stance where you are able to condemn marginalisation and imperialism, whilst _also_ standing with victims of oppression that they might suffer within their community (regardless of which community that is).  It's not a path that much have the left have managed to tread over the last 25 years.  but ultimately, it shouldn't be that difficult - _*it's simply about being honest.*_
*
Edit: actually, I'm not sure this is the right thread to get into all that.*


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

If I hear one more time about Muslim suicide bombers.  Hello, Christian abortion clinic bombers.  The Japanese kamikaze.


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> If I hear one more time about Muslim suicide bombers.  Hello, Christian abortion clinic bombers.  The Japanese kamikaze.


Are these a modern problem? Not rhetorical - genuine question (obviously not the Kamikaze)


----------



## butchersapron (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> If I hear one more time about Muslim suicide bombers.  Hello, Christian abortion clinic bombers.  The Japanese kamikaze.


Don't imagine that you're fooling anyone.


----------



## magneze (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> As an aside, I was utterly fucking appalled at the picture on yesterdays heinous evening standard -  badly pixellated bodies and blood trails where bodies had been moved. Utterly disgraceful, exploitative given many people were unaware of the situation with their loved ones. So I did wrote one of them complaints to the Independent Press Standards Organisation / IPSO about it
> 
> Appears that the Standard is not a member so the IPSO cannot do fuck all about it


The system works ... for itself.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Was Trump right? Are these people sad losers who couldn't have a normal life if they wanted - in the vein of Thomas Hamilton or Michael Ryan?


Sorry I'm on a posting roll here, But basically although these atrocities are wrong they might be divine punishment for all the wrong Britain has done in the past, up to and including the Crusades.


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Sorry I'm on a posting roll here, But basically although these atrocities are wrong they might be divine punishment for all the wrong Britain has done in the past, up to and including the Crusades.


I usually try and stay polite here, but do fuck off you absolute fanny


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Sorry I'm on a posting roll here, But basically although these atrocities are wrong they might be divine punishment for all the wrong Britain has done in the past, up to and including the Crusades.


Who's this clown?


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Sorry I'm on a posting roll here, But basically although these atrocities are wrong they might be divine punishment for all the wrong Britain has done in the past, up to and including the Crusades.


Who are you? Where are you from? Tell us your hopes and fears.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Who are you? Where are you from? Tell us your hopes and fears.


Sorry, what I wrote came over a bit wrong, the attack was definitely terrible and wrong and unjustiffiable


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> I wasn't jumping to conclusions, I'm just not surprised it was yet another muslim fucktard doing this kind of shit.


How do you know it was?


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Who's this clown?



Ninj/Ern etc, but I'm guessing a permaban will be at least a week in the making.


----------



## 8den (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> I think we tried imposing regime change in the Middle East before.  Also isn't Saudi Arabia home to Mecca Islam's most holy site, Allah has blessed it such, so can't it defend itself? Just thinking out loud really.



Are you? Thinking I mean. Because the above is an unrelated mess of reactionary kneejerk bollocks.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Ninj/Ern etc, but I'm guessing a permaban will be at least a week in the making.


I've said nothing wrong, you guys ar racist


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> I've said nothing wrong, you guys ar racist


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Anyone who believes in a fake magic man in the sky is a fucktard.



The editor of Theology Monthly there...


----------



## editor (May 24, 2017)

When all this shit strikes, humanity always emerges the winner

People are moved by this homeless man's story of helping the Manchester victims


----------



## editor (May 24, 2017)

And then some scum rises to the top



> Grande, who said said she was "broken" following the bomb attack in Manchester that killed 22 people, was a strong Hillary Clinton supporter during the US presidential election and joined the Women's March in January.
> 
> The pro-Trump Facebook page "Patriots for America USA" published a meme with an image of Grande and an "anti-American" quote attributed to her.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

editor said:


> When all this shit strikes, humanity always emerges the winner
> 
> People are moved by this homeless man's story of helping the Manchester victims


we've discussed the potential for harm which can be caused by removing objects from wounds above. but apart from that caveat, well done to him


----------



## mojo pixy (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Is anyone generally surprised it was another muslim doing this shit again?



Just because someone says they're a muslim doesn't mean they are.


----------



## gentlegreen (May 24, 2017)

Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) 				- "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the 				same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in 				the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize 				them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or 				helpers from their ranks."_


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"
> 
> Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority"._


Hm?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

To paraphrase the words of the anonymous Eastender in Leytonstone: he ain't no Muslim, bruv'


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"
> 
> Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
> 
> Quran (4:89)				 - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the				 same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in				 the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize				 them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or				 helpers from their ranks."_


Point?


----------



## gentlegreen (May 24, 2017)

Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


Have you read Deuteronomy in the Bible?


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


Simple as that eh?


----------



## gentlegreen (May 24, 2017)

no. Add the tendency for young men to be reckless with theirs, and others' lives ... plus of course what's going on in Muslim countries ...


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


 
stop


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.



Where are we going with this? How do we explain the existence of Muslims who don't choose to blow themselves up in concert venues? Is it because they haven't read the Quran?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


i'm sure muslims would love being told what constitutes a good muslim by a non-muslim.


----------



## B.I.G (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"
> 
> Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
> 
> Quran (4:89)				 - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the				 same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in				 the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize				 them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or				 helpers from their ranks."_



Now you say that. Apart from outing yourself as a moron. 

It must be that every single Muslim is following that meaning as the basis of their faith and following it to the literal meaning.

Or not... whatever the facts might suggest.


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


Were you offering that as an example of my point that people use after-the-fact quotations from scripture to justify what they've done?


----------



## existentialist (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> no. Add the tendency for young men to be reckless with theirs, and others' lives ... plus of course what's going on in Muslim countries ...


If you're going to start casting around for causes, then don't forget the alienation of young Muslim men from societies which regard them all as terrorists-in-waiting, nor the huge amount of distress and upheaval, not to mention displacement, of millions of people in regions in the world where we've decided to go adventuring in the last 20 years.


----------



## EastEnder (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.


Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:24 - King James Version


> *Exodus 21:24*: Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot



Do all good Christians live by that advice?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Do all good Christians live by that advice?


yes. but there're very few good christians.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 24, 2017)

Sweeping generalisations all round!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Sweeping generalisations all round!


nothing to add to the debate?


----------



## mikey mikey (May 24, 2017)

Not got sweeping generalisations about 2 billion people. Sorry.


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

I do believe that Jihadists are Muslims; like KKK, or Westboro Baptists or Spanish Inquisition are Christians.
Religion is a pain in the arse - we know this. If it had been put away as silliness years ago we'd probably have a cure for cancer or at the very least hoverboards by now.


----------



## Dandred (May 24, 2017)

D'wards said:


> I do believe that Jihadists are Muslims; like KKK, or Westboro Baptists or Spanish Inquisition are Christians.
> Religion is a pain in the arse - we know this. If it had been put away as silliness years ago we'd probably have a cure for cancer or at the very least hoverboards by now.


Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


by contrast to your good self i suppose.


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


That's a little strong. 
I may not agree with them but so long as their religions aren't being forced upon me or directly interfering with my life/livelihood, then live and let live.


----------



## weltweit (May 24, 2017)

I read earlier that the mother of one of the youngest girls to have been killed in the explosion is apparently in hospital in a critical condition and doesn't yet know her daughter died.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


You sound like a fifteen year old boy


----------



## maomao (May 24, 2017)

I know some proper fucking cunts who are athiests.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> You sound like a fifteen year old boy


did you sound like dandred when you were fifteen?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> did you sound like dandred when you were fifteen?


Probably. That teenage certainty and black-and-whiteness.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Not got sweeping generalisations about 2 billion people. Sorry.


yeh. well, being saying monday night's events were horrific you've not said anything of substance here. if you don't have something to pour into the great brew of debate why don't you find somewhere else to post for the time being?


----------



## Athos (May 24, 2017)

He's just saying what Morrissey is thinking in private.


----------



## Wilf (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


FFS!  People do good things, people do shit things. Sometimes religion is part of that, sometimes it isn't.  I don't happen to be religious, but have family members who hold sincere and humane traditional religious views.  As such I take exception to the slimewank you are coming out with.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Probably. That teenage certainty and black-and-whiteness.


yeh. but if you are going to have certainty and that as a teenager, why not try to be on the right side of the question?


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. but if you are going to have certainty and that as a teenager, why not try to be on the right side of the question?


That all religious people are despicable and that all atheists are lovely? Nope


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 24, 2017)

Athos said:


> He's just saying what Morrissey is thinking in private.



To be fair, Morrissey is being pretty public about what he thinks!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> That all religious people are despicable and that all atheists are lovely? Nope


no, that's not what i said. don't put words into my mouth, chuck.

YOU said YOU sounded like dandred when you were fifteen. i never said i sounded like him.


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.



You may as well say anyone left-wing would love to perpetrate a Pol Pot style genocide.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 24, 2017)

thats whats so so great about the aftermath of a massacre isn't it, certain things scurry into the light. People get emboldened to say things they normally would keep to themselves, happily using a tragedy to air their shit. Over in twitter land you've got Hopkins calling for a race war (to men, come back with your shield or on it etc) and some twonk at the Times calling for the internment camps.


----------



## Athos (May 24, 2017)

ElizabethofYork said:


> To be fair, Morrissey is being pretty public about what he thinks!


 Worse luck.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> no, that's not what i said. don't put words into my mouth, chuck.
> 
> YOU said YOU sounded like dandred when you were fifteen. i never said i sounded like him.


Seem to be talking at cross purposes here. I never said you did. what a strange thing to be disagreeable about.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"
> 
> Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
> 
> Quran (4:89)				 - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the				 same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in				 the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize				 them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or				 helpers from their ranks."_


All provided without any context and yet somehow you expect these to explain modern political outcomes and events, such as terrorism.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

maomao said:


> I know some proper fucking cunts who are athiests.


I know a LOT of cunts who are atheists. Most of the people partaking in the 'great debate' community online are insufferable alt right peddling wankers of the first order. Just look at scumbags like Phil 'thunderfoot' Mason, or that shitbag from Swindon, Carl Benjamin - aka Sargon of Akkad.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 24, 2017)

This is a good article on BuzzFeed. I agree with most of it.  This is an important point:

ISIS Has A Strategy To Create A Media Frenzy And News Outlets Are Struggling To Disrupt It

"Sometimes, the seeking of attention and “upping the ante” of victims is instinctive, as with young school shooters. Such mass murderers often meticulously collect clippings of media from past such incidents and obsessively follow the coverage. They "admire" and seek to emulate those who increased the numbers of victims. The Sandy Hook mass murder, carried out not by ISIS but by a disturbed young man in the US, seemed to do just that: target children, as a sick "one-upping" of sensational mass murder. In the case of ISIS, this stems not from instinct, but from a strategic understanding of the need for escalation to increase the coverage and horror.

And again and again, we are playing into their game, on their terms.

[...]

*Don't go into loop mode. Mention names of killers sparingly. Avoid their photos, manifestos, and coverage they left behind for us except in brief mentions. Don't overreact. Report news when there is news. Don't retraumatize victims*."


----------



## Mr Moose (May 24, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Those who take up violence against the infidels are by definition being good Muslims.



Most religions have some version of smite the infidels, blasphemers bollox, which few comfortable and safe adherents give two hoots about. 

It's only important when it's in someone powerful's interest to pour enough energy into making anyone take it seriously. Peace can only come through eroding the reasons for and power to do it.

In the meantime, how to stop the randoms who take up the cause?


----------



## Raheem (May 24, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> In the meantime, how to stop the randoms who take up the cause?



I've a sinking feeling we're going to start getting some suggestions once they've focus-grouped it and are ready to restart the election campaign.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.



You dont think people would find some other reason to kill?
You think atheists dont kill? 
Humans kill...maim...murder...and they do so for a miriad of reasons...and religion is one excuse used...but there have been many other reasons throughout history...such as property, land, precious metals, slavery.... and one of the biggest murdering cunts in history mao tse tung declared religion was poison whilst killing 45million of his own people over 4 years.


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> This is a good article on BuzzFeed. I agree with most of it.  This is an important point:
> 
> ISIS Has A Strategy To Create A Media Frenzy And News Outlets Are Struggling To Disrupt It
> 
> ...





sigh


----------



## danny la rouge (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> sigh


Granted BuzzFeed's business model is almost the opposite. But this article is a good one. The carrier is perhaps ironic, but I hope the message spreads.


----------



## 1927 (May 24, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Exactly, people who choose to believe in these kind of fairy tails are cunts of the highest order.


Fairies don't have tails!


----------



## bi0boy (May 24, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Granted BuzzFeed's business model is almost the opposite. But this article is a good one. The carrier is perhaps ironic, but I hope the message spreads.



If the BBC can't do it I don't hold out much hope for the advert-dependent media, where clearly juicy details of the terrorist means more clicks and ££.


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

Remember the Boston marathon bombing? Rolling Stone put that cunt on the cover - presumably cos he was good looking in a rakish rockstar way.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> If the BBC can't do it I don't hold out much hope for the advert-dependent media, where clearly juicy details of the terrorist means more clicks and ££.


Well it didn't work for you.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:24 - King James Version
> 
> 
> Do all good Christians live by that advice?



No because _the whole point_ of Jesus was to overturn that.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Bible Gateway passage: Exodus 21:24 - King James Version



Advert on that page:





> The Bible that shows how "A Light From Above" shaped our nation. Never has a version of the Bible targeted the spiritual needs of those who love our country more than The American Patriot's Bible. This extremely unique Bible shows how the history of the United States connects the people and events of the Bible to our lives in a modern world. The story of the United States is wonderfully woven into the teachings of the Bible and includes a beautiful full-color family record section, memorable images from our nation's history and hundreds of enlightening articles which complement the historic King James Version Bible text.



It's just what Jesus whould have wanted


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 24, 2017)

God's own country.


----------



## Septimus Rufiji (May 24, 2017)

_extremely_ unique?


----------



## emanymton (May 24, 2017)

D'wards said:


> I usually try and stay polite here


You know what board you are posting on, right?


----------



## gentlegreen (May 24, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No because _the whole point_ of Jesus was to overturn that.


Sadly the Muslims didn't have the Romans to construct a tame antidote to radicalism for them ...
Perhaps that's WHY Islam came to be - because they sort of knew the Romans had diluted the horrors of the Old Testament ...


----------



## gentlegreen (May 24, 2017)

... that said I encounter a lot of literalist "Christians" online who talk the OT talk - even if thankfully they don't act it out ... they're trapped into keeping the OT attached to the new so the "prophecies" make sense ...


----------



## bemused (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I know a LOT of cunts who are atheists. Most of the people partaking in the 'great debate' community online are insufferable alt right peddling wankers of the first order. Just look at scumbags like Phil 'thunderfoot' Mason, or that shitbag from Swindon, Carl Benjamin - aka Sargon of Akkad.



I'll see you and raise you Jon Gaunt. His twitter stream is a sewer of half-witted bullshit.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

bemused said:


> I'll see you and raise you Jon Gaunt. His twitter stream is a sewer of half-witted bullshit.


Indeed. He's a disgusting pustule on society's backside.

The Sun's headline about Corbyn and McDonnell is the most vile thing I've ever read.

I was speaking of my experience dealing with online atheists (of which I am one), and they are all content to use misognystic homophobic language while pretending to give a damn about morality. they are just repulsive.

I would happily throw Jon guant off a cliff.


----------



## JTG (May 24, 2017)

1927 said:


> Fairies don't have tails!


Incorrect. Elf women of Norway & Sweden were said to have cow's tails, only visible from behind. A woodcutter seduced by such a creature would only realise her true nature once they got down to it and he glimpsed the tail. Of course running away at this point wouldn't do him much good and he'd be torn to pieces by the elf maiden.

Not sure why Dandred is bringing this up now mind, you'd have to ask him


----------



## JTG (May 24, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> stop


Jihad time


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> You may as well say anyone left-wing would love to perpetrate a Pol Pot style genocide.


----------



## EastEnder (May 24, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No because _the whole point_ of Jesus was to overturn that.


Yeah I was just making the point that it's easy to pick out dodgy lines from religious texts and use them as a stick to beat every follower of the religion with.

I used to have a Muslim colleague, a chap I sat next to for 2 years. He was a devout Muslim, prayed several times a day, did the whole ramadan thing. I spoke to him at length about the issues facing Islam - as far as he was concerned the Quran preached peace & tolerance, and he abhorred any violence. I've not read it myself, so I had to take his word for it. I imagine, like most ancient texts it can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, usually based on the prejudice of the reader.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I would happily throw Jon guant off a cliff.


ah, you are a fan of the tarpeian rock





who phd despatching john gaunt (artist's impression)


----------



## T & P (May 24, 2017)

Yet more leaked information has appeared in the American media. The NYT has just published police images of the detonator and presumed rucksack worn by the bomber.

With allies like these...


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

emanymton said:


> You know what board you are posting on, right?


I know, but I don't like the abuse and namecalling that goes on around 'ere in the name of reasoned debate, and do try not to get involved. Failed today, and praps couple of other times in past.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 24, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Yeah I was just making the point that it's easy to pick out dodgy lines from religious texts and use them as a stick to beat every follower of the religion with.
> 
> I used to have a Muslim colleague, a chap I sat next to for 2 years. He was a devout Muslim, prayed several times a day, did the whole ramadan thing. I spoke to him at length about the issues facing Islam - as far as he was concerned the Quran preached peace & tolerance, and he abhorred any violence. I've not read it myself, so I had to take his word for it. I imagine, like most ancient texts it can be interpreted in a wide variety of ways, usually based on the prejudice of the reader.



I hope you're right.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

Islam should take a leaf out of Church of England's anti-radicalisation policy.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Islam should take a leaf out of Church of England's anti-radicalisation policy.


You can go now. We'll call you. Goodbye.


----------



## Old Spark (May 24, 2017)

Why are the yank spooks leaking to their media ?.

Name of bomber on nbc and cbs bouncing manc police into confirming it.

Then his families involvement in al qaeda struggle against gaddafi.

Details of bomb,detonator ,blast circle ,bomber top half flung, in new york times .

All seems very unspook like.Mind you camera crews seem very well informed about the properties being searched in manc.

Maybe they feel they have cocked up.Trying to show they know what they are doing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Why are the yank spooks leaking to their media ?.
> 
> Name of bomber on nbc and cbs bouncing manc police into confirming it.
> 
> Details of bomb,detonator ,blast circle ,bomber top half flung, in new york times .


If you've got it, flaunt it baby


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Why are the yank spooks leaking to their media ?



To beat everyone else to it.


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

Images of what they are calling the possible detonator sure do look like an e-cigarette to me. I say that with a fair degree of confidence because the tank part where the juice goes is quite clearly visible in one of the photos of it.


----------



## EastEnder (May 24, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Why are the yank spooks leaking to their media ?.


It's probably the quickest way of Trump passing on info to the Russians...


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

elbows said:


> Images of what they are calling the possible detonator sure do look like an e-cigarette to me. I say that with a fair degree of confidence because the tank part where the juice goes is quite clearly visible in one of the photos of it.



e-smoking kills


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

Buckaroo said:


> e-smoking kills


Yeh they blow up, e-fags, on a regular basis


----------



## kebabking (May 24, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Why are the yank spooks leaking to their media ?.
> 
> Name of bomber on nbc and cbs bouncing manc police into confirming it.
> 
> Details of bomb,detonator ,blast circle ,bomber top half flung, in new york times .



Three versions:

1) some spooks are big mouth twats trying to impress.

2) the US administration is leaky as shit.

3) CIA/FBI/NSA, knowing of the coming existential war that's coming with the Trump White House, are looking to build up their lists of friendly journalists, and this is useful chicken feed.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Three versions:
> 
> 1) some spooks are big mouth twats trying to impress.
> 
> ...


Might be all 3 of course


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Three versions:
> 
> 1) some spooks are big mouth twats trying to impress.
> 
> ...


I rather figured it was to stoke anti-Islam rhetoric. If we're having 'Muslim problems' over here, they can use that over there.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh they blow up, e-fags, on a regular basis


up in smoke


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

JTG said:


> Jihad time


In the context of the Syrian Civil War I believe that should read



JTG said:


> Hama time


----------



## JTG (May 24, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> In the context of the Syrian Civil War I believe that should read


Fuck' sake


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

Regarding the e-cig, after comparison with an old tank I have in my draw I can now confidently name the tank part of it - it's an Aspire K1 (minus the drip tip).


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

elbows said:


> Regarding the e-cig, after comparison with an old tank I have in my draw I can now confidently name the tank part of it - it's an Aspire K1 (minus the drip tip).



this thing?


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...e-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

Buckaroo said:


> this thing?



Yes, although I found it easier to identify via the other photo of it they published. It isnt just an Aspire K1 (or clone) in the photo - a small section of the battery portion of the ecig remains screwed onto the bottom of the K1 tank, although not much.


----------



## Buckaroo (May 24, 2017)

elbows said:


> Yes, although I found it easier to identify via the other photo of it they published. It isnt just an Aspire K1 (or clone) in the photo - a small section of the battery portion of the ecig remains screwed onto the bottom of the K1 tank, although not much.




"The possible detonator, which British law enforcement officials said was carried in the bomber’s left hand, is also unusual for a manual detonator in a suicide device, in that it appears to have contained a small circuit board soldered inside one end.

It is not clear from the law enforcement images if the object was a simple plunger switch, or included a timer or a receiver that could be operated remotely via radio signal – or some combination, or something else.

Such redundancy, if the object was the detonator, could give the bomber or a cell more than one option for deploying the device, and suggest that the bomb was not as simple in design as many terrorist devices, which often are crude and prone to failure or haphazard effect.

One independent analyst of improvised explosive devices, Michael C.L. Johnson, suggested that the object might be an electronic cigarette and unrelated to the bomb’s detonation – an understandable case of investigators focusing on a crime-scene detail early in a case.

Western bomb disposal technicians who reviewed the images for The New York Times said that a more thorough analysis of the device is difficult without more information, and that assessments of the bomb could change as the authorities analyze it further and if they collect more evidence. But its apparent overdesign, including the more powerful than usual battery, could flow from a bomb-maker’s difficulty in building a reliable detonator."


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

The small soldered circuitboard in that position is certainly typical of the type of cheap ecig battery that would typically be used with that tank.


----------



## MAD-T-REX (May 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Three versions:
> 
> 1) some spooks are big mouth twats trying to impress.
> 
> ...


Additionally, for some unfathomable reason, members of Congress on relevant committees are briefed on this sort of thing. The leak could be coming from anywhere.


----------



## tim (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Indeed. He's a disgusting pustule on society's backside.
> 
> The Sun's headline about Corbyn and McDonnell is the most vile thing I've ever read.
> 
> ...



There was a time when he was  the Shock Jock e everybody loved

https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/urban75-flamer-on-jon-gaunt-show.50800/


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2017)

MAD-T-REX said:


> Additionally, for some unfathomable reason, members of Congress on relevant committees are briefed on this sort of thing. The leak could be coming from anywhere.



Almost anywhere - we know its not coming from the Donald, as he would have described it as some form of whistle.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

HMG very not happy at all the leakiness over the pond, _NYT_ article seems to be the last straw:

Manchester attack: government 'furious' at US leaks of forensic photographs – live updates


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> If I hear one more time about Muslim suicide bombers.  Hello, Christian abortion clinic bombers.  The Japanese kamikaze.


The population in Europe is slightly more at risk from the former don't you think?


----------



## souljacker (May 24, 2017)

elbows said:


> The small soldered circuitboard in that position is certainly typical of the type of cheap ecig battery that would typically be used with that tank.



Great. That's e-cigs banned on flights then.


----------



## The39thStep (May 24, 2017)

Which of course doesn't explain those Muslim states or states where there are a significant Muslim population who also have problems with Islamic terrorism 


existentialist said:


> If you're going to start casting around for causes, then don't forget the alienation of young Muslim men from societies which regard them all as terrorists-in-waiting, nor the huge amount of distress and upheaval, not to mention displacement, of millions of people in regions in the world where we've decided to go adventuring in the last 20 years.[/QUO


----------



## elbows (May 24, 2017)

souljacker said:


> Great. That's e-cigs banned on flights then.



This ecig line of inquiry may well result in that device being ruled out, a red herring rather than actual detonation device, in my opinion.


----------



## weltweit (May 24, 2017)

Leaking like a sieve over there.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Which of course doesn't explain those Muslim states or states where there are a significant Muslim population who also have problems with Islamic terrorism



Precisely, and it doesn't explain how rich bastards like Bin Laden got into the terror business. Of course, the cunts on the bottom rung of the Jihadi food chain are usually alienated losers, but it's not alienation that's the common denominator when it comes to extremism, it's ideology.

That ideology is Salafism/Wahabism, and instead of challenging the biggest promoter of this ideology worldwide, Saudi Arabia, we suck up to their filthy royals, selling weapons to them so that they can continue to bomb the shit out of Yemen, torture dissidents and execute women who accidentally show a bit of ankle.


----------



## agricola (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The population in Europe is slightly more at risk from the former don't you think?



that all depends on which kamikaze is meant, I suppose


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

tim said:


> There was a time when he was  the Shock Jock e everybody loved
> 
> https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/urban75-flamer-on-jon-gaunt-show.50800/


I've never loved him. He's a cunt and I despise him.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> HMG very not happy at all the leakiness over the pond, _NYT_ article seems to be the last straw:
> 
> Manchester attack: government 'furious' at US leaks of forensic photographs – live updates


HMG really, _really_ not very happy...

Theresa May to tackle Donald Trump over Manchester bombing evidence


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> HMG really, _really_ not very happy...
> 
> Theresa May to tackle Donald Trump over Manchester bombing evidence


That will go well.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> HMG really, _really_ not very happy...
> 
> Theresa May to tackle Donald Trump over Manchester bombing evidence


And the Top Chops are also really, really not happy:



> Following reports in the US media, the statement below has been issued through the National Police Chiefs' Council.
> 
> A National Counter Terrorism Policing spokesperson said:
> 
> ...


Manchester incident: Update


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

To claim that this kind of thing has nothing to do with Islam is beyond absurd. There are many ways of interpreting the ideology of Islam, and the concept of Jihad, as keeps being pointed out. These actions arise from one particular interpretation.


----------



## Who PhD (May 24, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> To claim that this kind of thing has nothing to do with Islam is beyond absurd. There are many ways of interpreting the ideology of Islam, and the concept of Jihad, as keeps being pointed out. These actions arise arise from one particular interpretation.


No one said that though.


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> And the Top Chops are also really, really not happy:
> 
> 
> Manchester incident: Update


And in case the nuance is lost, NPCC just retweeted this:


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> No one said that though.


Didn't they?


----------



## B.I.G (May 24, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Didn't they?



People say or do anything to justify their actions. That's not a correlation.


----------



## Supine (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> That will go well.



TM giving Trump some (well deserved) shit over this will play well with the UK electorate. Strong government.


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> The population in Europe is slightly more at risk from the former don't you think?


To hear some liberals and liberal lefties, you'd be given to think we're more at risk from the Tamil Tigers.


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> People say or do anything to justify their actions. That's not a correlation.


Maybe, speaking generally. In this context it's pure nonsense.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 24, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> To hear some liberals and liberal lefties, you'd be given to think we're more at risk from the Tamil Tigers.


You'd be given what?


----------



## D'wards (May 24, 2017)

souljacker said:


> Great. That's e-cigs banned on flights then.


Afaik to detonate a bomb like this you just need something that can turn an electrical circuit on. Just touching two wires together would do it. E cig defo could be used


----------



## B.I.G (May 24, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe, speaking generally. In this context it's pure nonsense.



Its not. A fascist using their nonsense to commit atrocities would be the same.


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Its not. A fascist using their nonsense to commit atrocities would be the same.


What?


----------



## Supine (May 24, 2017)

So the BBC have moved QT to Salford tomorrow. Not sure I would have done that.


----------



## tim (May 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> That will go well.




No more holdings hands


----------



## tim (May 24, 2017)

Supine said:


> So the BBC have moved QT to Salford tomorrow. Not sure I would have done that.



Why not? Journalists chase stories


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Which of course doesn't explain those Muslim states or states where there are a significant Muslim population who also have problems with Islamic terrorism


And it isn't even true that this society regards all Muslim males as terrorists-in-waiting. The reaction to Manchester and every other recent atrocity, has seen both the public in general (as far as can be seen), nearly all mainstream politicians, and most of the media saying the exact opposite. As for the adventuring abroad, that same public consistently votes for the politicians who enable it.


----------



## Doubledown (May 24, 2017)

Okay it's theory time.  What if it's not possible for Muslims to challenge the grip of their religious leaders from within and tthe religious leaders imposing of strict religious education and sectarian traditions.  What if the state needs to step in and undo isolationism, step in to give women full rights and insist on secular education.


----------



## RD2003 (May 24, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Okay it's theory time.  What if it's not possible for Muslims to challenge the grip of their religious leaders from within and tthe religious leaders imposing of strict religious education and sectarian traditions.  What if the state needs to step in and undo isolationism, step in to give women full rights and insist on secular education.


Whatever anybody's opinion, it's likely to remain a 'what if?'


----------



## xenon (May 25, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Afaik to detonate a bomb like this you just need something that can turn an electrical circuit on. Just touching two wires together would do it. E cig defo could be used


 I know it's shocking isn't it, let's ban batteries.


----------



## crossthebreeze (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Okay it's theory time.  What if it's not possible for Muslims to challenge the grip of their religious leaders from within and tthe religious leaders imposing of strict religious education and sectarian traditions.  What if the state needs to step in and undo isolationism, step in to give women full rights and insist on secular education.


History of turkey, france, etc shows it doesn't work - alienates people more, pushes practices underground. 
What might be a positive step is if the state stopped selling arms to/being so sycophantic towards Saudi Arabia. If they stopped funding and listening to religious conservative "community leaders" over women, young people, working class people. If they stopped funding religious "free schools" (and properly fund comprehensive education instead).  Lots of muslim women i know are fighting for their rights in various ways - but the state is often actively working against them


----------



## EastEnder (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Okay it's theory time.  What if it's not possible for Muslims to challenge the grip of their religious leaders from within and tthe religious leaders imposing of strict religious education and sectarian traditions.  What if the state needs to step in and undo isolationism, step in to give women full rights and insist on secular education.


Firstly, there are many different Muslims with many different experiences - not all of them feel oppressed or under the influence of strictly controlling religion leaders. Generally speaking, you only get to hear of the bad cases. No one reports on the moderates - that's not newsworthy.

Secondly, anything the state did to curtail religious influence, such as with regard to secular education, would have to be done equally to _all_ religions. So it would affect catholic, C of E, Jewish, etc, schools just as much as Islamic ones. Personally I think that would actually be a good thing, but that's only cos I don't agree with any religious influence. Many others, from other faiths, would no doubt feel differently.

And with regard to women's rights - they're already enshrined within British law. We don't need more legislation, we need the existing laws to be adequately enforced.


----------



## Who PhD (May 25, 2017)

Supine said:


> TM giving Trump some (well deserved) shit over this will play well with the UK electorate. Strong government.


But shes an incoherent robot. She sounds like a dalek going through Google translate


----------



## Who PhD (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Didn't they?


Who said it then?


----------



## NoXion (May 25, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> But shes an incoherent robot. She sounds like a dalek going through Google translate



I'm not too familiar with the Whoverse but I seem to remember that the Daleks have a degree of passion about them, at least when it comes to EXTERMINATEing things. Perhaps Cybermen?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

So it's Trump's fault for leaking the sensitive intelligence not May's fault for letting a non-functional government run by an islamophobic lunatic have said intelligence in the first place?

Yes I'm sure it's standard policy to share these things, but a wise prime minister might have looked at that policy and made a few changes before something like this happened. Or just cut out the middle man and fax everything Mi5 has directly to Putin's office.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> So it's Trump's fault for leaking the sensitive intelligence not May's fault for letting a non-functional government run by an islamophobic lunatic have said intelligence in the first place?
> 
> Yes I'm sure it's standard policy to share these things, but a wise prime minister might have looked at that policy and made a few changes before something like this happened. Or just cut out the middle man and fax everything Mi5 has directly to Putin's office.


in the good auld days everything would have been faxed to moscow as soon as it arrived


----------



## Who PhD (May 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> So it's Trump's fault for leaking the sensitive intelligence not May's fault for letting a non-functional government run by an islamophobic lunatic have said intelligence in the first place?
> 
> Yes I'm sure it's standard policy to share these things, but a wise prime minister might have looked at that policy and made a few changes before something like this happened. Or just cut out the middle man and fax everything Mi5 has directly to Putin's office.


No, it's actually Comrade Corbyn and Gerry McDonnell's fault because reasons.

But we darne't upset our new trade overlords when we think we might get a good price for children's cancer services from some rich vermont billionaire cunt


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> in the good auld days everything would have been faxed to moscow as soon as it arrived



So we get to choose between back to the 70's with Corbyn or back to the 50's with May?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Gerry McDonnell


who is gerry mcdonnell?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

is it this gerry mcdonnell you mean?



Spoiler


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

is this the man, Who PhD?



Spoiler


----------



## Tankus (May 25, 2017)

DaveCinzano said:


> HMG really, _really_ not very happy...
> 
> Theresa May to tackle Donald Trump over Manchester bombing evidence



You dont think that its retribution for pissgate do you .?


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2017)

Tankus said:


> You dont think that its retribution for pissgate do you .?


Whatever it is it clearly works in her favour wrt the election. Not only strong and stable but responsible too. Not that it _should_ do but that may not be how the public see it, especially the way it's being played in the press.


----------



## Wilf (May 25, 2017)

Tankus said:


> You dont think that its retribution for pissgate do you .?


Sprayback?


----------



## Sprocket. (May 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Sprayback?



Peefret?


----------



## DaveCinzano (May 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Sprayback?


Wet work


----------



## no-no (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Sorry I'm on a posting roll here, But basically although these atrocities are wrong they might be divine punishment for all the wrong Britain has done in the past, up to and including the Crusades.



divine punishment? are you on drugs?

There's an argument that our foreign policy feeds isis' recruitment dept if they have such a thing but ffs divine retirbution? fuck off you cunt. Not posted here in ages, well done you broke my silence, prick.


----------



## agricola (May 25, 2017)

Have we had this yet?



> Sources spoken to by MEE suggest that the government facilitated the travel of Libyan exiles and British-Libyan residents and citizens keen to fight against Gaddafi including some who it deemed to pose a potential security threat.
> 
> One British citizen with a Libyan background who was placed on a control order – effectively house arrest – because of fears that he would join militant groups in Iraq said he was "shocked" that he was able to travel to Libya to fight in 2011 shortly after his control order was lifted.
> 
> ...


----------



## Doubledown (May 25, 2017)

no-no said:


> divine punishment? are you on drugs?
> 
> There's an argument that our foreign policy feeds isis' recruitment dept if they have such a thing but ffs divine retirbution? fuck off you cunt. Not posted here in ages, well done you broke my silence, prick.


Sorry, you are right, I was just curious to see if there was anyone here who didn't share this view. What with white liberal empire guilt being what it is, and also pandering.


----------



## NoXion (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Sorry, you are right, I was just curious to see if there was anyone here who didn't share this view. What with white liberal empire guilt being what it is, and also pandering.


 Another battle won in the War on Straw. Nice going Don Quixote.


----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2017)

Bomb squad and army now at a college in Trafford evacuating area


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 25, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Bomb squad and army now at a college in Trafford evacuating area


I reckon every happy meal box will be a potential bomb for some time.
Hope it is just a discarded happy meal.


----------



## killer b (May 25, 2017)

Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square. 

I'm not sure where to go with this.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with this.


(((mrs b)))


----------



## Teaboy (May 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with this.



Go listen to some 350bpm gabba to get the taste out of your mouth?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with this.



Well I suppose that song might be about a community uniting in the face of terrorist atrocities. With Oasis songs it's impossible to say one way or another what they're supposed to be about.


----------



## Orang Utan (May 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with this.


Play British Murder Boys' Don't Give Way To Fear out of your window


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well I suppose that song might be about a community uniting in the face of terrorist atrocities. With Oasis songs it's impossible to say one way or another what they're supposed to be about.



'Don't look back in anger' - it'll be 'hug an islamo fascist' next.


----------



## The Boy (May 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Mrs B informs me she just witnessed a massed sing-along of _Don't Look Back in Anger_ in St Annes Square.
> 
> I'm not sure where to go with this.



 Broken Britain


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

Could be worse. They could be singing Morrisey's 'Rusholme Ruffians'.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Okay it's theory time.  What if it's not possible for Muslims to challenge the grip of their religious leaders from within.


Can't believe I'm seeing this bullshit here. Have you ever _met_ any Muslims?


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> To hear some liberals and liberal lefties, you'd be given to think we're more at risk from the Tamil Tigers.


In the US and UK the risk from white supremacists is about on a par I believe. To hear you talk you'd think only Muslims commit terrorist attacks in the UK. Remind me who killed the last MP to be killed by a terrorist...

No-one here says that regressive versions of Islam _aren't_ a problem, but there's an issue if you see that as a unique terrorist-creating problem, and there are big questions over what the state can or should do to intervene without us all coming under suspicion and experiencing repression, and also without generating further counter-productive hostility.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Could be worse. They could be singing Morrisey's 'Rusholme Ruffians'.



a) that's a song by The Smiths and not Morrissey 
b) there are probematic intersectional issues raised by the song. 
c) Don't look back in anger is both mawkish and utterly incoherent and therefore a much better choice


----------



## Sprocket. (May 25, 2017)

I preferred the stage play!
(Where they obviously nicked that (almost) title from too)


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 25, 2017)

Is it s bit wrong to ask when the BBC is going to cover anything else? I worked from home yesterday and had the news channel on all day. There was 99% coverage of this. It must be a journos nightmare trying to dig out fresh angles. Even BBC London news was virtually completely about it, with some rather tenuous links.


----------



## teqniq (May 25, 2017)

We need to talk about what inspired Salman Abedi's attack on Manchester

Some salient points that need to be repeated and often:



> ...The ultimate inspiration for such people is Wahhabism, the puritanical, fanatical and regressive type of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia, whose ideology is close to that of al-Qaeda and Isis. ...





> ...The real causes of “radicalisation” have long been known, but the government, the BBC and others seldom if ever refer to it because they do not want to offend the Saudis or be accused of anti-Islamic bias It is much easier to say, piously but quite inaccurately, that Isis and al-Qaeda and their murderous foot soldiers “have nothing to do with Islam”. This has been the track record of US and UK governments since 9/11. They will look in any direction except Saudi Arabia when seeking the causes of terrorism...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Is it s bit wrong to ask when the BBC is going to cover anything else? I worked from home yesterday and had the news channel on all day. There was 99% coverage of this. It must be a journos nightmare trying to dig out fresh angles. Even BBC London news was virtually completely about it, with some rather tenuous links.


yeh. the way to remedy this is to use a different news source.

next.


----------



## Ranbay (May 25, 2017)

Sorry for the link, but apparently this all happened because of you know.... POT

Is marijuana a factor in jihadi murders? | Daily Mail Online


----------



## RD2003 (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> In the US and UK the risk from white supremacists is about on a par I believe. To hear you talk you'd think only Muslims commit terrorist attacks in the UK. Remind me who killed the last MP to be killed by a terrorist...
> 
> No-one here says that regressive versions of Islam _aren't_ a problem, but there's an issue if you see that as a unique terrorist-creating problem, and there are big questions over what the state can or should do to intervene without us all coming under suspicion and experiencing repression, and also without generating further counter-productive hostility.


Nobody's generating hostility by stating a fact either, and nor did anybody say there are no terrorist attacks carried out by others.

I'd put money on the next big one being the work of another Jihadi rather than anybody else, though.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 25, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Sorry for the link, but apparently this all happened because of you know.... POT


Before reading the headline I was trying to work out whose initials are POT


----------



## bi0boy (May 25, 2017)

Reiabuzz said:


> Even BBC London news was virtually completely about it, with some rather tenuous links.



The BBC News website currently has this on their main Manchester attack breaking news page:

Celtic Football Club have issued a statement about safety arrangements ahead of their Scottish Cup final game against Aberdeen on Saturday. It says that "with absolute respect to Aberdeen Football Club, we would not wish to pre-judge the outcome of the Scottish Cup final in any way" but goes on to say that should the team win, there will not be any supporters' event at Celtic Park.


----------



## Lord Camomile (May 25, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Before reading the headline I was trying to work out whose initials are POT


President Orange Trump!

Boom.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> Before reading the headline I was trying to work out whose initials are POT


peter o'toole


----------



## Wilf (May 25, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Sorry for the link, but apparently this all happened because of you know.... POT
> 
> Is marijuana a factor in jihadi murders? | Daily Mail Online


Oh my, oh my...


> Potheads: DR MAX PEMBERTON asks if marijuana is a factor in jihadi murders as he says the liberal elite who push for looser drug laws should be shamed





> Was he a psychopath? Was he evil? ....*I do not know the answer but I do know....* as the Mail reports today, that according to his friends Abedi was a frequent and heavy cannabis smoker.


Branes will be spoken.


----------



## Wilf (May 25, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Sorry for the link, but apparently this all happened because of you know.... POT
> 
> Is marijuana a factor in jihadi murders? | Daily Mail Online


What's his next thrilling insight, that communion wine was a factor in C of E priests turning nonce?


----------



## Doubledown (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> Can't believe I'm seeing this bullshit here. Have you ever _met_ any Muslims?


It's easy for me to be rude without thinking on a web forum, it was not my intention to offend.  Even when there is no terrorism Islam seems pretty dismal.  In London I see self segregation and it feels like the U.K.'s been colonised by an alien culture and religion.  Before the 9/11 attacks multiculturalism was great, all lovely, people getting on together, racism and the BNP had been defeated.  Then militant Islam, Jihad, enemy within.  An alien religion and some that despises the West, wants nothing to do with British culture, and it is a big affront.  I respect and appreciate and admire all Muslims and I would never do one any harm.  But is it something to celebrate, communities having the right to live completely separate lives within the UK shared areas just gradually being taken over, with voluntary segregation?


----------



## Ranbay (May 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> What's his next thrilling insight, that communion wine was a factor in C of E priests turning nonce?



It was that or sexy kids.


----------



## chandlerp (May 25, 2017)

It's why all altar boys had centre parts


----------



## angusmcfangus (May 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> Have we had this yet?


Reap what you sow and all that!

Why is this not in the MSN?


----------



## chandlerp (May 25, 2017)

What's the Microsoft Network got to do with it?


----------



## Ranbay (May 25, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> What's the Microsoft Network got to do with it?



A/S/L ?


----------



## agricola (May 25, 2017)

angusmcfangus said:


> Reap what you sow and all that!
> 
> Why is this not in the MSN?



the Guardian reported part of it


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> It's easy for me to be rude without thinking on a web forum, it was not my intention to offend.  Even when there is no terrorism Islam seems pretty dismal.  In London I see self segregation and it feels like the U.K.'s been colonised by an alien culture and religion.  Before the 9/11 attacks multiculturalism was great, all lovely, people getting on together, racism and the BNP had been defeated.  Then militant Islam, Jihad, enemy within.  An alien religion and some that despises the West, wants nothing to do with British culture, and it is a big affront.  I respect and appreciate and admire all Muslims and I would never do one any harm.  But is it something to celebrate, communities having the right to live completely separate lives within the UK shared areas just gradually being taken over, with voluntary segregation?



Only white people ever talk about racism having been defeated.

As for British muslims, they are not a homogeonous blob. They're all individual people. You can't talk about 'them' all doing this that or the other because everyone's ideas and behaviour are different.

There was once an alien religion which took over the UK though. It consumed and repurposed local culture so its followers could better subjugate the people. The name of that religion was not Islam.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Before the 9/11 attacks multiculturalism was great, all lovely, people getting on together, racism and the BNP had been defeated.


yeh right



you dozy twat


----------



## Dogsauce (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> It's easy for me to be rude without thinking on a web forum, it was not my intention to offend.  Even when there is no terrorism Islam seems pretty dismal.  In London I see self segregation and it feels like the U.K.'s been colonised by an alien culture and religion.  Before the 9/11 attacks multiculturalism was great, all lovely, people getting on together, racism and the BNP had been defeated.  Then militant Islam, Jihad, enemy within.  An alien religion and some that despises the West, wants nothing to do with British culture, and it is a big affront.  I respect and appreciate and admire all Muslims and I would never do one any harm.  But is it something to celebrate, communities having the right to live completely separate lives within the UK shared areas just gradually being taken over, with voluntary segregation?



It would have been easier just to say 'no'.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> It's easy for me to be rude without thinking on a web forum, it was not my intention to offend.  Even when there is no terrorism Islam seems pretty dismal.  In London I see self segregation and it feels like the U.K.'s been colonised by an alien culture and religion.  Before the 9/11 attacks multiculturalism was great, all lovely, people getting on together, racism and the BNP had been defeated.  Then militant Islam, Jihad, enemy within.  An alien religion and some that despises the West, wants nothing to do with British culture, and it is a big affront.  I respect and appreciate and admire all Muslims and I would never do one any harm.  But is it something to celebrate, communities having the right to live completely separate lives within the UK shared areas just gradually being taken over, with voluntary segregation?


it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than open your gob wide and prove yourself one.


----------



## editor (May 25, 2017)

The Mail. The fucking Daily Mail.


----------



## Ranbay (May 25, 2017)




----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Nobody's generating hostility by stating a fact either, and nor did anybody say there are no terrorist attacks carried out by others.
> 
> I'd put money on the next big one being the work of another Jihadi rather than anybody else, though.


As 99.6% is suicide bombers are Muslim that's a pretty safe bet


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Even when there is no terrorism Islam seems pretty dismal.



What makes it more dismal than Christianity?

Are you going to demand that born-again and evangelical Christians integrate themselves into the mainstream non-church-going society? Their homophobia and 'pro-life' stances offend me tbh. What's with the going to church and praying all the time? Do they want nothing to do with British culture?

I really don't think you've met and spent time with many Muslims. It really shows that you don't think of them as individual people with differing opinions, just as a sort of amorphous mass.


----------



## Raheem (May 25, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> As 99.6% is suicide bombers are Muslim that's a pretty safe bet



Why are you smiling at this thought?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Des Freedman: The Terror News Cycle

interesting lrb analysis, questioning the need for 24 hour coverage of atrocities, hope it'll interest you


----------



## mod (May 25, 2017)

teqniq said:


> We need to talk about what inspired Salman Abedi's attack on Manchester
> 
> Some salient points that need to be repeated and often:



Good piece. 

This is important too...

After 9/11, President Bush portrayed Iraq not Saudi Arabia as the enemy; in a re-run of history President Trump is ludicrously accusing Iran of being the source of most terrorism in the Middle East.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Nobody's generating hostility by stating a fact either, and nor did anybody say there are no terrorist attacks carried out by others.
> 
> I'd put money on the next big one being the work of another Jihadi rather than anybody else, though.


You weren't 'stating a fact' you idiot, you were proposing the large-scale intervention of the state in a culture, a fundamentally violent proposal, though I'm sure you won't understand it as violence until you become the target.

You haven't answered the question of whether and how you want the state to intervene in white supremacist culture yet.


----------



## RD2003 (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> You weren't 'stating a fact' you idiot, you were proposing the large-scale intervention of the state in a culture, a fundamentally violent proposal, though I'm sure you won't understand it as violence until you become the target.
> 
> You haven't answered the question of whether and how you want the state to intervene in white supremacist culture yet.


What are you on about? I made no proposals of any kind.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> What are you on about? I made no proposals of any kind.


You seemed to be agreeing with doubledown above that 'intervention' in 'muslim culture' was necessary but would not be entertained. Perhaps I misread you.


----------



## RD2003 (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> You seemed to be agreeing with doubledown above that 'intervention' in muslim culture was necessary but would not be entertained. Perhaps I misread you.


Think you need to calm down.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Think you need to calm down.


Perhaps, but post #896 was rather deliberately ambiguous I think, and not what I expected on here as a response to doubledown's violent suggestion.  Your responses became kind of blurred with his in my mind...


----------



## RD2003 (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> Perhaps, but post #896 was rather deliberately ambiguous I think, and not what I expected on here as a response to doubledown's violent suggestion.  Your responses became kind of blurred with his in my mind...


It was meant to convey that the kind of thing he was proposing, even in the unlikely event of such things being taken up by a mainstream politician, would never see the light of day.


----------



## Brainaddict (May 25, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> It was meant to convey that the kind of thing he was proposing will never see the light of day.


But isn't the main point that it's a wrong-headed, fucked-up suggestion that would make matters worse, rather than it being just something that will be avoided for imagined political correctness reasons or something?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

gosub said:


> How is targeting teenagers at a concert polarising?  Even your average daesh sympathiser will see it as a bad move.



I'm not sure I agree with your last.  This sort of behaviour, as we've seen with Bataclan and various other atrocities, is about the spectacle more than about the victims.


----------



## RD2003 (May 25, 2017)

Brainaddict said:


> But isn't the main point that it's a wrong-headed, fucked-up suggestion that would make matters worse, rather than it being just something that will be avoided for imagined political correctness reasons or something?


Most likely it would, but we shouldn't let our own complacency blind us to the fact that they're likely to get worse anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I've actually been got by this. Normally pretty bloody stoic about these kinds of things, even when much closer to me personally, 7/7. But, fuck sakes, this is just so fucking awful I'm losing it and going to pieces a bit.
> 
> Fucking wanker.




That's kind of the aim though - to project "none of you are safe, not kids, not commuters, no-one", and to destabilise opinion so that some will react against Muslims _per se_ (I've already had to listen to knob-ends ranting about "rounding up the Muzzie scum" and "sweeping Tooting clean"  ) and push public sentiment even further against Muslims in general.  Such a thing would be a victory for the more hard-right of the Tory party, and for the UKIP twats, as well as for the Da'eshites.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Been working with primary school kids today, and I overheard a few of them talking about this attack. Talking about the number of casualties in a pretty flippant, neutral sort of way. Horrible to think of them growing up in a world where this is just a thing that happens sometimes.
> 
> Of course when I was their age there were IRA attacks happening, and I suppose we would have talked about them in much the same way. Targetting kids though, that's a kind of evil we never really had to contemplate.



Except every time the state of Israel has deliberately bombed a Palestinian school, anyway, but no, not on home soil.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I wasn't angry until I consulted social media. The thing that depresses me is the ugly memes I see.  However many terrorists there are, there's another (probably larger) group of people just as willing to use the death of an 8-year-old girl to inspire hatred and conflict.  They just don't go to the trouble of actually blowing anyone up.
> 
> Does that make any sense?  It may not.



It makes a lot of sense.  There are always gobshites and keyboard warriors ready to use atrocities to serve their own agenda, sadly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

8115 said:


> Donald Trump has got a big gob. Apparently America released the name against the wishes of British intelligence which is a bit of a kick in the teeth. (Guardian reports).
> 
> I was angry and then I saw a photo of the alleged attacker, and I thought, he's just a kid whose life has been ruined along with a load of other people.  What a tragedy.
> 
> ...



The Provisionals (and street rioters) used shrap against troops in Ulster.  It's utilitarian - easily available bits of whatever metal you have lying around - and with a bit of effort can be made into a shaped charge that does horrific damage, and only needs the powder from half a dozen shotgun cartridges (or a quarter of a pound of home-made black powder) to cause a fucking horrific mess.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

extra dry said:


> I think the troops being deployed is a step to keep the public calm/feel secure.
> 
> It may be a step to prevent vigilantly justice by groups of knuckle dragging thugs out to attack/kill Muslims.



It's the former, not the latter.

The problem with such thinking - about public reassurance - is that just as many feel insecure due to seeing troops on the street, as feel secure.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> View attachment 107551
> 
> All coming out of the woodwork now.



Allison Pearson is a fucking right-wing fruitbat at the best of times.  Coming out with that sort of shit just accrues kudos to the mad cunt who bombed the arena - it plays his game.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

8115 said:


> The use of bolts etc is just horrible, there should be some kind of fucking terrorist Geneva convention that bans it.


yeh, only properly trained soldiers should be equipped with that sort of thing.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Why are you smiling at this thought?



That's no smile. It's smugface.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> You are a massive prick.



He's a massive prick with a very small prick.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Quran				 (2:191-193)				 - _"And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where				 they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah _[disbelief or				 unrest] _is worse than				 killing... but if they desist, then lo!				 Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no				 more Fitnah_ [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah]				 _and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be				 no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and				 wrong-doers, etc.)"
> 
> Quran (3:151)				 - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that				 they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
> 
> Quran (4:89)				 - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the				 same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in				 the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize				 them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or				 helpers from their ranks."_



And in context with the scriptures which those cites actually sit next to?


----------



## Ranbay (May 25, 2017)

_Quran (3:151)__ - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".


Allah = god so anyone who believes in god is sound Shirley? _


----------



## gentlegreen (May 25, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> And in context with the scriptures which those cites actually sit next to?


OK - there's :-

*190. *And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, *but transgress not the limits*. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with _Jihad, _but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].

Noble Quran - Translation of Sura Al-Baqarah

Seems a bit vague ...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> OK - there's :-
> 
> *190. *And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, *but transgress not the limits*. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with _Jihad, _but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].
> 
> ...


haven't you got something better to do with your time?


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

Lucky there's nothing about violence in the bible isn't it?


----------



## gentlegreen (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> haven't you got something better to do with your time?


I'm having a sit-down between shopping and cooking my tea.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> I'm having a sit-down between shopping and cooking my tea.


yeh. haven't you got something better to do than post ultra-vapid wank here?


----------



## Cid (May 25, 2017)

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."

(leviticus 20:10)

Mind you Jesus did respond with that 'he who is without sin' stuff.


----------



## Cid (May 25, 2017)

In fact logically shouldn't Jesus have stoned her?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

Cid said:


> In fact logically shouldn't Jesus have stoned her?



Yeah but he was a bloody hippy! 



> *John 8:1-11*
> 
> 8 Jesus returned to the Mount of Olives, 2 but early the next morning he was back again at the Temple. A crowd soon gathered, and he sat down and taught them. 3 As he was speaking, the teachers of religious law and the Pharisees brought a woman who had been caught in the act of adultery. They put her in front of the crowd.
> 
> ...


----------



## Raheem (May 25, 2017)

Cid said:


> In fact logically shouldn't Jesus have stoned her?



You're assuming that Jesus was without sin. But, actually, he was into dogging. It's in the sequel.


----------



## Cid (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> You're assuming that Jesus was without sin. But, actually, he was into dogging. It's in the sequel.



He certainly seems to have had a bit of an S&M thing going.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> You're assuming that Jesus was without sin. But, actually, he was into dogging. It's in the sequel.



"And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and _I will make you fishers of men_."

The cheeky bugger.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2017)

mistranslated from 'vicious old men'


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> mistranslated from 'vicious old men'


Some readings have it as fisters of men, see e.g. the Bible translated by Toad of Rottweil at the famous monastery of St Gall in 814


----------



## Wilf (May 25, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> OK - there's :-
> 
> *190. *And fight in the Way of Allah those who fight you, *but transgress not the limits*. Truly, Allah likes not the transgressors. [This Verse is the first one that was revealed in connection with _Jihad, _but it was supplemented by another (V.9:36)].
> 
> ...


This is from an early draft of Peter Kay's Phoenix Nights.  In the end they went with plotline about Den Perry burning the club down.  But there's an option to go back to this for the Hollywood film.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 25, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> And in context with the scriptures which those cites actually sit next to?



That is the point, the fact is that those verses can be situated however you might wish them to be, specifically (temporally, geographically), but perhaps most pertinently - try to situate them outside of an Islamic historiography that largely exists far later that the alleged (and specificaally situated) situation of the verses.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. haven't you got something better to do than post ultra-vapid wank here?



Oh the irony...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 25, 2017)

Most religious adherents don't take the text literally, thankfully (almost said thank god there). 

But I don't get why it's beyond criticism? Granted this isn't the thread for it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> Sorry for the link, but apparently this all happened because of you know.... POT
> 
> Is marijuana a factor in jihadi murders? | Daily Mail Online



DM going for the "lets link it to Hassan-i Sabbah and the Hashishim" award, I see.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Ranbay said:


> _Quran (3:151)__ - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".
> 
> 
> Allah = god so anyone who believes in god is sound Shirley? _



Jewish scripture states similar with regard to unbelievers, as does Christianity.  It doesn't necessarily mean terror or war, it can (and did) equally mean standing apart from unbelievers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Cid said:


> "And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death."
> 
> (leviticus 20:10)
> 
> Mind you Jesus did respond with that 'he who is without sin' stuff.



I've always like Leviticus for the "mixed fibres" thing.

Quick, kill your gran for wearing her alpaca and sheepswool cardie!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> You're assuming that Jesus was without sin. But, actually, he was into dogging. It's in the sequel.


 Apparently he was also a public proponent of bumcarrot wanking.


----------



## Raheem (May 25, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Most religious adherents don't take the text literally, thankfully (almost said thank god there).
> 
> But I don't get why it's beyond criticism? Granted this isn't the thread for it.



I don't see where anyone's tried to say that religious texts are beyond criticism. I also haven't seen anyone criticising the Quran, just quoting bits with a knowing look.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Cid said:


> He certainly seems to have had a bit of an S&M thing going.



'No, Mary.  When I said I wanted Judas to "nail me", crucifixion WAS NOT what I meant!'


----------



## Raheem (May 25, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Apparently he was also a public proponent of bumcarrot wanking.



Ah, you're low church then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> "And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and _I will make you fishers of men_."
> 
> The cheeky bugger.



Fishing blatantly equates to cruising, there!


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Ah, you're low church then.



I'm so "low church", I'm not "church" at all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Some readings have it as fisters of men, see e.g. the Bible translated by Toad of Rottweil at the famous monastery of St Gall in 814



Wasn't that your uncle Al's favourite translation?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> Oh the irony...


You'll never get those seconds back


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

Oh absolutely. Also, a serial sex pest, taking advantage of his celebrity status. 



> Mt 8:2-3 "And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. And Jesus put forth his hand and touched him"
> 
> Mt 8:14-15 "And when Jesus was come into Peter's house, he saw his wife's mother laid, and sick with a fever. And he touched her"
> 
> Mt 19: 13-15 "There were there bought unto him little children, that he should put his hands on them ... And he laid his hands on them, and departed thence"


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 25, 2017)

He touched thousands the world over.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 25, 2017)

the whole world in his hands


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 25, 2017)

If you want joy, real joy, wonderful joy;
Let Jesus come into your heart;
If you want joy, real joy, wonderful joy;
Let Jesus come into your heart.
Your sins He'll wash away,
Your night He'll turn to day,
Your life He'll make it over anew;
If you want joy, real joy, wonderful joy;
Let Jesus come into your heart.


----------



## gentlegreen (May 25, 2017)




----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

And just what do you think was going on here, eh? 



> Mark 14:51-52 "And a young man followed him, with nothing but a linen cloth about his body. And they seized him, but he left the linen cloth and ran away naked."



Caught red-handed, bucko!


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 25, 2017)

Why the mockery?

Thread is..divisive....
And not conducive to anything resembling acceptance of difference...


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

I've just realised this is probably an inappropriate place to be making jokes. Nevertheless, I suppose it demonstrates how scripture can be taken out of context, so I guess it's relevant to the thread.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 25, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Why the mockery?
> 
> Thread is..divisive....
> And not conducive to anything resembling acceptance of difference...



Welcome to the left.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 25, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Why the mockery?
> 
> Thread is..divisive....
> And not conducive to anything resembling acceptance of difference...



Who's being mocked?


----------



## J Ed (May 25, 2017)

An interesting angle here.

'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi



> The British government operated an "open door" policy that allowed Libyan exiles and British-Libyan citizens to join the 2011 uprising that toppled Muammar Gaddafi even though some had been subject to counter-terrorism control orders, Middle East Eye can reveal.
> 
> Several former rebel fighters now back in the UK told MEE that they had been able to travel to Libya with "no questions asked" as authorities continued to investigate the background of a British-Libyan suicide bomber who killed 22 people in Monday's attack in Manchester.
> 
> Salman Abedi, 22, the British-born son of exiled dissidents who returned to Libya as the revolution against Gaddafi gathered momentum, is also understood to have spent time in the North African country in 2011 and to have returned there on several subsequent occasions


----------



## Reiabuzz (May 25, 2017)

60 minutes of it now on Channel 4 news including possibly the most inappropriate 'tribute' yet of loads of bikers revving their engines in the town square resulting in plenty of explosions from their engines. Even mawkish John Snow looked a bit weirded out by that. Barely a nod to other things happening in the world.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> haven't you got something better to do with your time?



He could go and tidy his room.


----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Why are you smiling at this thought?


Cos it's a safe bet


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 25, 2017)

As we all know, some things are just best NOT said or broadcast.

Queenie asks/says... 'You were able to enjoy the concert before at least?

What kind of question is that?


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2017)

J Ed said:


> An interesting angle here.
> 
> 'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi



Interesting indeed.



> One British citizen with a Libyan background who was placed on a control order – effectively house arrest – because of fears that he would join militant groups in Iraq said he was "shocked" that he was able to travel to Libya in 2011 shortly after his control order was lifted.
> 
> "I was allowed to go, no questions asked," said the source, who wished to remain anonymous.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the, then, Home Secretary might well have had a role in that.


----------



## gentlegreen (May 25, 2017)

... oops ...


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 25, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> As we all know, some things are just best NOT said or broadcast.
> 
> Queenie asks/says... 'You were able to enjoy the concert before at least?
> 
> What kind of question is that?




To be fair, I probably wouldn't have any idea what to say to a victim either.  Is there anything that isn't an absolute cliche that could be said?  Or worse, sound patronizing?


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2017)

Been told.


----------



## The39thStep (May 25, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Interesting indeed.
> 
> ​Sounds like the, then, Home Secretary might well have had a role in that.


Makes me wonder whether given the father of the bomber was an anti Gadaffi activist why the concerns about the son were seemingly unaddressed


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Makes me wonder whether given the father of the bomber was an anti Gadaffi activist why the concerns about the son were seemingly unaddressed


Don't suppose they'll be too keen for this line of enquiry to be pursued.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> To be fair, I probably wouldn't have any idea what to say to a victim either.  Is there anything that isn't an absolute cliche that could be said?  Or worse, sound patronizing?


if i was 90 and had known people who'd died violently myself i think i might think advance of some non-cringeworthy things to say


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if i was 90 and had known people who'd died violently myself i think i might think advance of some non-cringeworthy things to say



 I've never been particularly gifted with words.  If the two of us ever find ourselves in that situation, I shall let you do the talking.  I always figured just showing up was more than most people do anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I've never been particularly gifted with words.  If the two of us ever find ourselves in that situation, I shall let you do the talking.  I always figured just showing up was more than most people do.


a simple 'so sorry you had to put up with the awful may woman yesterday, i do hope she wasn't too dreadful' might suffice


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> a simple 'so sorry you had to put up with the awful may woman yesterday, i do hope she wasn't too dreadful' might suffice



Well, at least they were spared a visit from Donald Trump.


----------



## Cid (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if i was 90 and had known people who'd died violently myself i think i might think advance of some non-cringeworthy things to say



But maybe those are exactly the right things to say, you just don't know it because you're still 20 years off and without her experience.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Cid said:


> But maybe those are exactly the right things to say, you just don't know it because you're still 20 years off and without her experience.


you young whippersnapper, i'm a dam' sight more than fucking 20 years off i'll have you know


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 25, 2017)

J Ed said:


> An interesting angle here.
> 
> 'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi



How reliable do we think this is?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> How reliable do we think this is?


Anecdotal evidence lends it verisimilitude


----------



## treelover (May 25, 2017)

Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


----------



## ruffneck23 (May 25, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


And may hasnt  ?


----------



## 8den (May 25, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Makes me wonder whether given the father of the bomber was an anti Gadaffi activist why the concerns about the son were seemingly unaddressed


 Newsnight just confirmed the bomber and father travelled to Libya during the liberation.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> You'll never get those .


----------



## redsquirrel (May 25, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


Yeah he should just pretend it never happened, because that will go _really_ well.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> What about the years you have constantly posted...


Yeh. I've enjoyed them, but I've never said if someone's eg a Muslim they must believe x or y, unless your mate.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


If only you could help yourself


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

8den said:


> Newsnight just confirmed the bomber and father travelled to Libya during the liberation.


Oho! The Liberation, is it? Yeh, I bet Libyans feel very fucking liberated.


----------



## alfajobrob (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. I've enjoyed them, but I've never said if someone's eg a Muslim they must believe x or y, unless your mate.



I dont think i suggested that...jeez.

I dont want to argue on this thread..i dont want to argue with anyone tbh..

Ill leave it so sorry if i upset anyone.


----------



## Raheem (May 25, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.



Of course he will link it to foreign policy, because it is linked to foreign policy and no-one doubts it. Obviously, it's an important speech for him not to fuck up. I don't particularly expect him to, but I'd have to concede it's not impossible. However, he's in a potentially very strong position, for reasons that have already been spelled out on these forums, and if it goes well it could deny the Tories their last face card.


----------



## tim (May 25, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> a simple 'so sorry you had to put up with the awful may woman yesterday, i do hope she wasn't too dreadful' might suffice



At least they seem to have been spared the wit and wisdom of her consort.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

.


----------



## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> To be fair, I probably wouldn't have any idea what to say to a victim either.  Is there anything that isn't an absolute cliche that could be said?  Or worse, sound patronizing?



Probably best to leave people the fuck alone instead of using them as photo opportunites then.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 25, 2017)

alfajobrob said:


> I dont think i suggested that...jeez.
> 
> I dont want to argue on this thread..i dont want to argue with anyone tbh..
> 
> Ill leave it so sorry if i upset anyone.


I'm sorry I reacted as I did and would prefer it if you stayed on thread. I shouldn't have been so touchy but would rather I was upset than you left.


----------



## existentialist (May 25, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


Do you _ever_ show approval of anything anyone else has done?


----------



## extra dry (May 26, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> As we all know, some things are just best NOT said or broadcast.
> 
> Queenie asks/says... 'You were able to enjoy the concert before at least?
> 
> What kind of question is that?



Survivor...nah mam, it was shit I want a refund.


----------



## Santino (May 26, 2017)

'But apart from that, how was the play Mrs Lincoln?'


----------



## Who PhD (May 26, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn to put the events in Manchester at the heart of a speech tomorrow, and link it in some way to foreign policy, he just can't help himself.


Not wrong though, is he


----------



## Dogsauce (May 26, 2017)

Yeah, but it'll play as

A) Corbyn doesn't sport are troops;
B) it was Labour wot done Iraq;
C) Corbyn soft on terror, now is not the time to weaken our resolve;
D) Corbyn loves terrorists, the dirty hypocrite. Here's a picture of him with bad people;
D) Corbyn cynically using dead kids to boost his campaign while Teresa is just doing her job.

Plus quotes will be taken out of context in the usual way. 
Brave of him to give it a try.


----------



## The39thStep (May 26, 2017)

Interesting article in the Telegraph which inevitably raises questions as to what happended to the information recieved and the referral to the Prevent programme
Security services missed five opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Not wrong though, is he


A ringing endorsement


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 26, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting article in the Telegraph which inevitably raises questions as to what happended to the information recieved and the referral to the Prevent programme
> Security services missed five opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/



If the security services were indeed complicit in older family members travelling to Libya to help in overthrowing Gaddafi, then the family might have been flagged such that the cops thought it inappropriate to investigate a too closely.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 26, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Interesting article in the Telegraph which inevitably raises questions as to what happended to the information recieved and the referral to the Prevent programme
> Security services missed five opportunities to stop the Manchester bomber http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/24/security-services-missed-five-opportunities-stop-manchester/



This was raised by a member of the public on Questions Time last night. Dimbleby immediately moved the debate away from it and back to Prevent.

No doubt there is a queasiness about this at the BBC given May would have been Home Secretary at the time that these 5 warnings were made.

She would also have been Home Secretary when the terrorist and others returned from fighting alongside Libyan Islamic militants and were allowed back into the UK with no control order or questions asked.

For sections of the left - see Burnham - pursuing the Tories on this is also problematic as it directly undermines their narrative that these are random acts and that essentially these things just happen and in no way reflect a set of ideas that have agency in a section of the Muslim community.


----------



## LDC (May 26, 2017)

Loving the 'nasty oppressive control orders/oh, why was he not on a control order' confusion going on with some.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (May 26, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Loving the 'nasty oppressive control orders/oh, why was he not on a control order' confusion going on with some.



Given that Abedi and others would have returned to the UK with knowledge of weapons, making IEDs and suicide vests - plus a deeepened ideological commitment to the Islamist cause - how would you have addressed it


----------



## LDC (May 26, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given that Abedi and others would have returned to the UK with knowledge of weapons, making IEDs and suicide vests - plus a deeepened ideological commitment to the Islamist cause - how would you have addressed it



All I'm finding interesting is the bleating about why he/others was allowed to go to leave for Libya/given his passport back by the people who would be the first to scream if he'd had his passport removed.

It's obviously a really difficult thing to manage, and the fact that apparently only 7 people are on the TPIM orders suggests they're not used lightly.


----------



## nuffsaid (May 26, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Not wrong though, is he



That is very debatable. An earlier post in this thread by Tecniq shared this link We need to talk about what inspired Salman Abedi's attack on Manchester showing where the roots of Islamic extremism come from and how the West are happy to ignore them so as not to damage relations with Saudi Arabia.

On R4 'Today' this morning it was mentioned that trying to say our foreign policy is directly related to resultant suicide bombings here is refuted as the West were not at war in the Mideast when 911 happened. But I would argue against that as you can take the conflict back further, the attacks on the USS Cole, the Gulf War of the early 90s and ultimately the Mujahideen being created and trained by the CIA to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The West meddles and cares not the outcomes. 

To me it feels like having a hornets nest in a tree at the bottom of the garden and the foreign wars are us kicking the tree. So we could stop kicking the tree but if Wahhabism was going to unleash this mindset anyway, then the hornets nest was always going to be there anyway. Do you ignore it, or try to remove it? 

Yesterday's C4 news showed how fundamentalist Islamic belief is now affecting the law in Indonesia where homosexuals were dragged from their bed by vigilantes, tried without defence and publicly caned. Not sure how any western intervention led to this.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 26, 2017)

Rudd seems to be saying somethiing very familiar...


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Given that Abedi and others would have returned to the UK with knowledge of weapons, making IEDs and suicide vests - plus a deeepened ideological commitment to the Islamist cause - how would you have addressed it


i doubt he'd have returned with a knowledge of making suicide vests - d'you think they have a great libyan sewing bee? 

have you any of your actual *evidence* that he would have returned with a knowledge of making ieds and suicide vests: or is it, as i suspect, mere conjecture?


----------



## mikey mikey (May 26, 2017)

This is why we can't have nice things


----------



## 1927 (May 26, 2017)

nuffsaid said:


> That is very debatable. An earlier post in this thread by Tecniq shared this link We need to talk about what inspired Salman Abedi's attack on Manchester showing where the roots of Islamic extremism come from and how the West are happy to ignore them so as not to damage relations with Saudi Arabia.
> 
> On R4 'Today' this morning it was mentioned that trying to say our foreign policy is directly related to resultant suicide bombings here is refuted as the West were not at war in the Mideast when 911 happened. But I would argue against that as you can take the conflict back further, the attacks on the USS Cole, the Gulf War of the early 90s and ultimately the Mujahideen being created and trained by the CIA to fight the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan. The West meddles and cares not the outcomes.
> 
> ...


A better metaphor would be us introducing a new type of  bees to kill the hornets, which then turn out to be killer bees that then attack us!


----------



## Doubledown (May 26, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> As we all know, some things are just best NOT said or broadcast.
> 
> Queenie asks/says... 'You were able to enjoy the concert before at least?
> 
> What kind of question is that?



Yes ma'am, made it all worthwhile, mustn't grumble.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 26, 2017)




----------



## mikey mikey (May 26, 2017)

Just over a year ago



> Barack Obama has sharply criticised David Cameron for the UK’s role in allowing Libya to become a “shit show” after the fall of the dictator Muammar Gaddafi, in an unprecedented attack on a British leader by a serving US President.



Obama has said David Cameron allowed Libya to become a 's*** show'


----------



## eoin_k (May 26, 2017)

nuffsaid said:


> ...
> Yesterday's C4 news showed how fundamentalist Islamic belief is now affecting the law in Indonesia where homosexuals were dragged from their bed by vigilantes, tried without defence and publicly caned. Not sure how any Western intervention led to this.



Western intervention didn't lead to it directly, but it contributed to the context. Leave aside the fact that an ideology which Western powers have propped up in other parts of the world for reasons of political expediency, can cross national borders. Leave aside the failure of liberal democracy and 'C' Communism, both of which have roots in the West, to meet the needs of local people, contributing to the vacuum that this poison fills.
1600-1800 - Colonial period of the Dutch East Indies Company
1800-1940s - Colonial period of the Dutch State
1940s - Japanese occupation
1945-1960's - Sukarno regime first independent government deposed by a CIA-backed coup
1960s-1990s - US supported Suharto regime
2000s-> ??? I haven't done my homework, but I'm sure twenty-first-century neo-liberalisms has been a blast so far.


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i doubt he'd have returned with a knowledge of making suicide vests - d'you think they have a great libyan sewing bee?
> 
> have you any of your actual *evidence* that he would have returned with a knowledge of making ieds and suicide vests: or is it, as i suspect, mere conjecture?



Indeed the Libyan conflict was mostly fought with conventional weapons, albeit ones often mounted onto vehicles in slightly unconventional ways.


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

UK failures in post-Gaddafi Libya certainly far more complex than the 'oh we didnt have a strategy' narrative too because of relations with major proxy string-pullers in Libya such as Qatar, UAE, Egypt.


----------



## LiamO (May 26, 2017)

J Ed said:


> An interesting angle here.
> 
> 'Sorted' by MI5: How UK government sent British-Libyans to fight Gaddafi




Well, yeah, but...

They were only supposed to kill Gaddafi and his mates - you know the ones 'we' wanted them to kill. Can't seem to follow the script these boys.

Who could have possibly forseen that fundamentalist nutjobs, armed, trained and facilitated by britain and the US would then bite the hand that fed them? Never happened before, has it?

I mean that nice Mr Bin Laden and his friends that the West trained, armed and eulogised for fighting the Red Menace in Afghnaistan... they turned out OK, didn't they?

Oh.


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

elbows said:


> Indeed the Libyan conflict was mostly fought with conventional weapons, albeit ones often mounted onto vehicles in slightly unconventional ways.



I should probably add that this picture changes slightly if he was in Libya during later phases of violence. IS foothold in Libya was relatively weak compared to some other countries but there are a bewildering array of Islamists with various different masters. Lots of them are involved with more conventional forms of fighting but suicide attacks are not completely unheard of in a couple of hotspots in Libya. Quality of information very low as usual for Libya though.


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

For example this is how the BBC reported the 'first' suicide attack in Libya - December 2013.

Libya's first suicide attack kills seven near Benghazi - BBC News


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

Stupid question. But is there any documentation that shows the home office in 2010/11 allowed British Libyian exiles to fight in the civil war.


----------



## Idris2002 (May 26, 2017)

LiamO said:


> Well, yeah, but...
> 
> They were only supposed to kill Gaddafi and his mates - you know the ones 'we' wanted them to kill. Can't seem to follow the script these boys.
> 
> ...


Their proxies in Norniron seem to have been kept on-side once they were stood down.


----------



## LiamO (May 26, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Their proxies in Norniron seem to have been kept on-side once they were stood down.



Maybe because 
a) they had no ideology / belief of their own - other than following the orders of their 'betters'.

b) they were spoon-fed right through and still had fuck all to write home about capability-wise

c) Shooting taigs interferes with the selling of narcotics


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

On Newsnight they discussed having a source that said that during the 2011 timeframe before Tripoli fell, the bomber (then aged 16) and his dad were in Belhadj's group of fighters. Belhadj being the guy that is best known in the UK for taking the UK government & Jack Straw to court over rendition. A guy I first became aware of as he rolled up in a convoy of vehicles shortly after Gaddafi's Tripoli compound fell, and then proceeded to give a live on-camera interview from there to Al Jazeera.


----------



## The39thStep (May 26, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This was raised by a member of the public on Questions Time last night. Dimbleby immediately moved the debate away from it and back to Prevent.
> 
> No doubt there is a queasiness about this at the BBC given May would have been Home Secretary at the time that these 5 warnings were made.
> 
> ...


Speaking of Burnham it would be interesting to find out who briefs him on Prevent and Islamic extremism. He came out with Islamist crowd pleasing line that the terrorist attack was nothing to do with Islam whereas Sarah Kahn and a Muslim member of the audience hit the nail on the head .


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

The clue as to whether this has anything to do with Islam might be found in the terms Islamist or jihadi.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> The clue as to whether this has anything to do with Islam might be found in the terms Islamist or jihadi.



Except Islam is a religion and Islamism is a political ideology.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Except Islam is a religion and Islamism is a political ideology.


Yes, inspired, as the name suggests, by Islam. Next!


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, inspired, as the name suggests, by Islam. Next!



Yet rejected by more Muslims than not who might take issue with your "inspired by Islam" schpiel.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

In fact, to hear some people talk, you'd think that Islamism would still exist even even Islam had never come into being.

Few things amaze as much as a human being's ability to delude him/herself.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yet rejected by more Muslims than not who might take issue with your "inspired by Islam" schpiel.


Did anybody claim that most Muslims don't reject it?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> In fact, to hear some people talk, you'd think that Islamism would still exist even even Islam had never come into being.
> 
> Few things compare to a human being's ability to delude him/herself.



It's just fascism with a clerical face so of course it already exists in other guises.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It's just fascism with a clerical face so of course it already exists in other guises.


Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.



Or a fascist's take on the Koran. If the Koran didn't exist would they cease being a fascist?


----------



## existentialist (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Did anybody claim that most Muslims don't reject it?


No, because those who like to join the dots from "terrorism" to "muslims" like to carefully elide such fine distinctions.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or a fascist's take on the Koran. If the Koran didn't exist would they cease being a fascist?


Fascists are always there, hanging in the ether, waiting for an ideology to lock on to...


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

existentialist said:


> No, because those who like to join the dots from "terrorism" to "muslims" like to carefully elide such fine distinctions.


Some might; I don't.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Some might; I don't.


good for you


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> good for you


Thanks.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 26, 2017)

Per James Wheeler, who knows Libya, on Twitter, Abedi Sr post the Islamic Fighting Group is now associated with the Ghariani family in Tripoli. The father Sadiq is Libya's mufti and routinely attacks Haftar and the Tobruk government (secular-leaning) as apostates; the son Sohail has apparently been left to enter the UK on a few occasions to preach at mosques favoured by radicals.


----------



## Wilf (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yes, a kind of fascism inspired by a certain reading of the Koran.


Was the conflict in the north of Ireland about fanatical readings of the bible?


----------



## Who PhD (May 26, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Rudd seems to be saying somethiing very familiar...



"it is not about resources"? lulwut?


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Was the conflict in the north of Ireland about fanatical readings of the bible?


No. You know it wasn't.

But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable (and it's also pointless to get into a drawn- out argument along the lines of 'violent passages are in the bible as well'...'US Christian fundamentalists are known for sometimes shooting people' etc etc.)

I suppose if people want to claim that Islamism is nothing to do with Islam, then you might as well let them get on with it. Which is what I'll be doing.


----------



## Wilf (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> No. You know it wasn't.
> 
> But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable (and it's also pointless to get into a drawn- out argument along the lines of 'violent passages are in the bible as well'...'US Christian fundamentalists are known for sometimes shooting people' etc etc.)
> 
> I suppose if people want to claim that Islamism is nothing to do with Islam, then you might as well let them get on with it. Which is what I'll be doing.


I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam.  But the important issue is to work out _why_ people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics.  I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> No. You know it wasn't.
> 
> But that's irrelevant, as the situation there and what we are dealing with now is in no way comparable



Are you _really_ going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?


----------



## xenon (May 26, 2017)

Precisely. You can't destroy  philosophies. You can  to an extent destroyed those who follow them.  Better to  do something to reduce the motivation to follow them.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam.  But the important issue is to work out _why_ people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics.  I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.



I don't know how a proper explanation could avoid any of those influences. Surely power, politics and ideology _all_ play a part. How could a person's thoughts and beliefs - the most important factor in determining a person's actions - not be involved somewhere along the way? It's just bizarre to deny that.


----------



## elbows (May 26, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> Per James Wheeler, who knows Libya, on Twitter, Abedi Sr post the Islamic Fighting Group is now associated with the Ghariani family in Tripoli. The father Sadiq is Libya's mufti and routinely attacks Haftar and the Tobruk government (secular-leaning) as apostates; the son Sohail has apparently been left to enter the UK on a few occasions to preach at mosques favoured by radicals.



That being the Mufti who was in the UK in 2014 until the Guardian said he was broadcasting stuff to support the Islamist fighters who took Tripoli. He was then banned from the UK and made his way back to Libya via Qatar and some other places.

I was not familiar with James Wheeler until you mentioned him. He how seems to be saying that the father of the bomber is an employee of the ministry of interior of the government of national accord in Libya.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> Are you _really_ going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?


No, and didn't do it in my post above either.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> Are you _really_ going to stand/sit/shit here and tell us there was no religious or sectarian element to the conflict in NI?




but i suppose this is when you remount your hobby horse about the ira


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm not suggesting Islamism has nothing to do with Islam.  But the important issue is to work out _why_ people are becoming Islamists - and the answer to that isn't theological, it's about power, influence and geopolitics.  I'm not a fan of hierarchical religions or, more accurately, the hierarchies that attach themselves to religions - and I detest religious conservatism/fascism. But the answer to all this is in the world, it isn't about interpretations of dusty scrolls.


I didn't deny any of that. What I said was that if they want to find justificatiion for their actions, they can go the Islamic scriptures. Other Muslims, for one reason or another, no doubt put a different or more nuanced slant on the relevant passages. 

And if they're prepared to die for it, they, or those prompting them, clearly believe in their particular interpretation wholeheartedly. This fond notion of terrorists (somehow ready-made or born that way) and/or criminals casting around for a convenient justification for their actions just doesn't wash. Especially when the perpetrators were Muslims in the first place or 'reverted' to Islam.


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> No, and didn't do it in my post above either.



So you're admitting religion was a major factor in the violence in the North, but don't see how it's relevant to current terrorist attacks, because....


----------



## Pickman's model (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> So you're admitting religion was a major factor in the violence in the North, but don't see how it's relevant to current terrorist attacks, because....


A protestant state for a protestant people: with armed protestant militias
 Yeh hardly surprising there was a religious factor


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> So you're admitting religion was a major factor in the violence in the North, but don't see how it's relevant to current terrorist attacks, because....



Probably because the situation in NI was more explicitly political, with clearly-defined political aims and demands. In NI, politics was at the forefront, with religion being a significant backdrop. With Islamist extremism I would say it was the other way round, with religion playing first fiddle.


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Probably because the situation in NI was more explicitly political, with clearly-defined political aims and demands. In NI, politics was at the forefront, with religion being a significant backdrop. With Islamist extremism I would say it was the other way round, with religion playing first fiddle.



Sure about that?
A DoD investigation found more than 100 civilians were killed during a U.S. airstrike in Mosul

Dozens of civilians killed in Syria airstrikes


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> Sure about that?
> A DoD investigation found more than 100 civilians were killed during a U.S. airstrike in Mosul
> 
> Dozens of civilians killed in Syria airstrikes



How does that relate to anything I said?


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> How does that relate to anything I said?



Those are two attacks reported today that killed over 100 civilians. And you really think religion is the main motivation?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> Those are two attacks reported today that killed over 100 civilians. And you really think religion is the main motivation?



Yes, because that's what ISIS actually says.


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yes, because that's what ISIS actually says.



ISIS claim responsibility whenever a Muslim gives someone a cold. But you're taking their word as to what motives suicide attackers who have little or no direct ties to them?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> ISIS claim responsibility whenever a Muslim gives someone a cold. But you're taking their word as to what motives suicide attackers who have little or no direct ties to them?



Before we continue, can I just ask you if there is _anything _I could say that would cause you to change your opinion on what the dominant motivation is?


----------



## 8den (May 26, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Before we continue, can I just ask you if there is _anything _I could say that would cause you to change your opinion on what the dominant motivation is?



So you're just going to ignore that then?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> So you're just going to ignore that then?



No. I'm just trying to lay some foundations for the conversation. To see if we are even on the same page here. To find out if a conversation will be at all productive.

To answer my own question, to convince me that politics rather than religion is the main motivation, I'd need a convincing explanation of (1) why ISIS would lie about their motivations, (2) why suicide bombers blow themselves up instead of planting a bomb and moving to a safe distance, (3) why there are rarely any demands attached to these attacks. 

All of these indicate to me that the politics is second-place to religious fanaticism, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.


----------



## weltweit (May 26, 2017)




----------



## not a trot (May 26, 2017)

Wigan locals respond to a bomb scare in the most British way imaginable | JOE.co.uk


----------



## Nigel (May 26, 2017)

weltweit said:


>



Haven't they suffered enough !


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 26, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Haven't they suffered enough !



Fucks sake.


----------



## RD2003 (May 26, 2017)

8den said:


> So you're admitting religion was a major factor in the violence in the North, but don't see how it's relevant to current terrorist attacks, because....



Go away.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

an article that adds a little more detail to the bombers fathers activities and that of the secret services
Manchester Attack as MI6 Blowback


----------



## josef1878 (May 27, 2017)

not a trot said:


> Wigan locals respond to a bomb scare in the most British way imaginable | JOE.co.uk



I used to go there years ago right across road from hospital, I hope they had a good day. Well deserved


----------



## elbows (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> an article that adds a little more detail to the bombers fathers activities and that of the secret services
> Manchester Attack as MI6 Blowback



Fuck the Voltaire Network.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

Apparently, this is Andy Burnham's devastatingly lucid insight: 
“Actions of governments can contribute, but let’s remember 9/11 happened before interventions anywhere. We’ve got to deal with what this is – a twisted ideology that has no connection to being representative of the Muslim religion.”

Christallfuckingmighty.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 27, 2017)

Andy Burnham thought funding the NHS via PFI was a great idea. 

Why would anyone care what he thinks? He's obviously a neoliberal shitcunt.


----------



## Raheem (May 27, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Andy Burnham thought funding the NHS via PFI was a great idea.
> 
> Why would anyone care what he thinks? He's obviously a neoliberal shitcunt.



He's whatever looks like a good bet for his career on a given day of the week.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> Andy Burnham thought funding the NHS via PFI was a great idea.
> 
> Why would anyone care what he thinks? He's obviously a neoliberal shitcunt.


Well the opportunist (and evidently not that intelligent) wanker was elected mayor...
Nothing new, I suppose.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

So many idiots on this thread. No wonder hate crimes are up.


----------



## Grace Johnson (May 27, 2017)

Nigel said:


> Haven't they suffered enough !



Not on that. She is a young person that has suffered a traumatic experience here too, she's trying to do something to help and you're taking the piss out of her? For what reason? It's not even a good joke. Get a grip man ffs.


----------



## Tankus (May 27, 2017)

nasty piece of work by Piers Morgan ...though  ...shame shaming  ...but then he always was ....why is he back in the UK anyway ...and back on TV  ?


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 27, 2017)

Because Americans think he's a twat as well.


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 27, 2017)

James corden will be back soon as well.


----------



## Doubledown (May 27, 2017)

All I will say, is to remind people of the words of the Tennyson poem, "nature red in tooth and claw".  There is decency and good heartedness but there is also an aspect of survival of the fittest.  Christians are being ethnically cleansed from the Middle East because they are not strong. It is my observation that power gets used.  It's exactly what Britain did in empire days, it had the machine gun so it could suppress the natives and conquer the country.


----------



## Calamity1971 (May 27, 2017)

Is that all you will say? Ever?


----------



## Raheem (May 27, 2017)

Calamity1971 said:


> James corden will be back soon as well.



But if we send them that Judge Rinder, we'll still be up on the deal.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> So many idiots on this thread. No wonder hate crimes are up.



dont understand


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

elbows said:


> Fuck the Voltaire Network.



no comment on the content just the brand?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> No. I'm just trying to lay some foundations for the conversation. To see if we are even on the same page here. To find out if a conversation will be at all productive.
> 
> To answer my own question, to convince me that politics rather than religion is the main motivation, I'd need a convincing explanation of (1) why ISIS would lie about their motivations, (2) why suicide bombers blow themselves up instead of planting a bomb and moving to a safe distance, (3) why there are rarely any demands attached to these attacks.
> 
> All of these indicate to me that the politics is second-place to religious fanaticism, but I'm open to being convinced otherwise.



Because it's a political act.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> So many idiots on this thread. No wonder hate crimes are up.


Not sure your presence on the thread can be linked to an increase of hate crimes in manchester


----------



## BigTom (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> no comment on the content just the brand?



Source, not brand. Nothing in that article is referenced so you have to believe the source, which in this case is an apparantly non conspiraloonery NGO run by a conspiraloon (9/11 inside job, beslan massacre CIA job etc). My eyebrow was raised by the phrase towards the start of the article which said the bombers bank card was "conveniently" found in his back pocket, and was expecting it to go full false flag conspiraloon but it didn't. Nonetheless I would like to read all that (with references preferably) from a source that I thought more reliable than this one, which I don't remember coming across before, but elbows clearly does.


----------



## bimble (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Yes, because that's what ISIS actually says.


This is really stupid.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> dont understand


Hate crimes are up because people are saying stuff on a thread on here.


----------



## 8den (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> an article that adds a little more detail to the bombers fathers activities and that of the secret services
> Manchester Attack as MI6 Blowback



front page of the site


> Donald Trump contre le jihadisme
> par Thierry Meyssan



Meyssan is a noted Holocaust denier. Away with that shite.


----------



## elbows (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> no comment on the content just the brand?



It's the usual mix of stuff the source site is notorious for. In this case plenty of it is based on some truth, some of it is distorted by use of language and labels and sometimes there will be outright fabrications thrown into the mix. Unless that network has changed recently, what you will get from them is the sort of 'anti-imperialism' that does not see fit to extend its critique to the likes of Russia, Gaddafi or Assad. As such it often takes far more than one article to see the nature of it's bias, and I spent way too much time on this sort of shit back when I was highly active on u75 - not going to waste my time to the same extent these days, especially when I mostly gave up talking about Libya on u75 years ago when the number of people who wanted to discuss the detail dwindled to barely a handful.

I will try to get into some specifics regarding this case when I have time today because despite what I just said I do sometimes get the urge to try to revitalise Libya discussions here but more fool me if I invest much time in it with little response.


----------



## elbows (May 27, 2017)

An obvious distortion in the article is where it says Belhadj and al-Hatari created the FSA in Syria. They set some stuff up in Syria but the idea they created the FSA is way more than a stretch and the timescales dont fit.

Reading the wikipedia articles for Belhadj and al-Hatari is a much better idea.


----------



## elbows (May 27, 2017)

I mean I can understand why the article might be held up as a beacon of light, especially by those for who may otherwise have been unaware of Belhadj's links with Qatar and with Abedi's career path. Fine, use it as a source of tip-offs for people and themes to explore the detail of elsewhere, but beware the slippery oversimplifications and distortions and the agenda of the source.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because it's a political act.





bimble said:


> This is really stupid.



So stupid nobody had bothered answering the questions.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> dont understand



If people on urban are thinking people are blowing themselves up because they are muslim. No wonder the wider world is so full of hate. 

I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Hate crimes are up because people are saying stuff on a thread on here.



Interestingly enough hate crime in Manchester doubled the day after the incident( due to the bombing rather than comments on here)  ,albeit  to a figure less than those injured in the bombing. My son is  manager at a restraint at the Trafford Centre and had to deal with a situation in the morning after the bombing where a young staff member refused to serve some women in hijabs as he was genuinely worried and angry.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> If people on urban are thinking people are blowing themselves up because they are muslim. No wonder the wider world is so full of hate.
> 
> I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.



Seeing as 99.6% of all suicide bombers are muslim there might be a link? But lets not that get in the way of banning people for Islamaphobia


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

Not women in hijabs? I'm always threatened by them too. 

Its the way they never to do anything threatening that gets me. And they are always drunk and boorish.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Seeing as 99.6% of all suicide bombers are muslim there might be a link? But lets not that get in the way of banning people for Islamaphobia



How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?

But don't worry. Jump to your racism. 

You know. Cos your a cunt.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

elbows said:


> It's the usual mix of stuff the source site is notorious for. In this case plenty of it is based on some truth, some of it is distorted by use of language and labels and sometimes there will be outright fabrications thrown into the mix. Unless that network has changed recently, what you will get from them is the sort of 'anti-imperialism' that does not see fit to extend its critique to the likes of Russia, Gaddafi or Assad. As such it often takes far more than one article to see the nature of it's bias, and I spent way too much time on this sort of shit back when I was highly active on u75 - not going to waste my time to the same extent these days, especially when I mostly gave up talking about Libya on u75 years ago when the number of people who wanted to discuss the detail dwindled to barely a handful.
> 
> I will try to get into some specifics regarding this case when I have time today because despite what I just said I do sometimes get the urge to try to revitalise Libya discussions here but more fool me if I invest much time in it with little response.


Fair enough. So in this particular article most of it is true?


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> If people on urban are thinking people are blowing themselves up because they are muslim. No wonder the wider world is so full of hate.
> 
> I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.


You're right. Maybe he blew himself up because he was a United fan.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

Does blowing to pieces adolescent girls and their parents qualify as a hate crime?


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> You're right. Maybe he blew himself up because he was a United fan.



People never do any violence in the name of a football club

So you are being ridiculous.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Does blowing to pieces adolescent girls and their parents qualify as a hate crime?



Its a violent crime. What's the definition of a hate crime? Can you look it up. 

Then come and tell me.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Its a violent crime. What's the definition of a hate crime? Can you look it up.
> 
> Then come and tell me.


You don't really seem the type who needs telling anything.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> People never do any violence in the name of a football club
> 
> So you are being ridiculous.


Yeah, but maybe it actually was because he was a United fan. You know, seeing as it can't have been because he was Muslim.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

Any criminal offence which is perceived by the victim or any other person, to be motivated by hostility or prejudice based on a person's race or perceived race; religion or perceived religion; sexual orientation or perceived sexual orientation; disability or perceived disability and any crime motivated by hostility or prejudice against a person who is transgender or perceived to be transgender."


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Not women in hijabs? I'm always threatened by them too.
> 
> Its the way they never to do anything threatening that gets me. And they are always drunk and boorish.


He's a kid in Manchester who works in a large shopping centre which is seen as a high risk target.It was the day after the bombing.He was scared , scared to go to work and scared at work. being scared can sometimes be illogical. I mentioned it as I found it interesting and how my son had to deal with it.There were others who rang in sick.


----------



## LiamO (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?
> 
> But don't worry. Jump to your racism.
> 
> You know. Cos your a cunt.



The39thStep is 'racist'? Lol. 

You stupid, stupid, little boy


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Yeah, but maybe it actually was because he was a United fan. You know, seeing as it can't have been because he was Muslim.



What part of being religious motivated him?


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> He's a kid in Manchester who works in a large shopping centre which is seen as a high risk target.It was the day after the bombing.He was scared , scared to go to work and scared at work. being scared can sometimes be illogical. I mentioned it as I found it interesting and how my son had to deal with it.There were others who rang in sick.



Its not illogical. Its prejudice. 

Calling in sick because youbare afraid you might get blown up its not the same as refusing to serve some women in their hijabs. Was he afraid that the drinks might be used as a weapon?


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> What part of being religious motivated him?


It's already been covered. In my opinion (which is apparently widely shared for some reason, and by no means only by racists) because he'd come to believe in a certain interpretation of the Islamic scriptures. Same as the other perpetrators of such atrocities the world over.

But maybe it was because he was a United fan.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

LiamO said:


> The39thStep is 'racist'? Lol.
> 
> You stupid, stupid, little boy



If you say so. Obv without fault they must be. Just like you.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Its not illogical. Its prejudice.
> 
> Calling in sick because youbare afraid you might get blown up its not the same as refusing to serve some women in their hijabs. Was he afraid that the drinks might be used as a weapon?


Maybe he just isn't as clever and all-seeing as you.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> It's already been covered. In my opinion because he'd come to believe in a certain interpretation of the Islamic scriptures. Same as the other perpetrators of such atrocities the world over.
> 
> But maybe it was because he was a United fan.



So if I take a life for a life cos cos its in the bible and I murder someone that makes me christian. If you say so.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Maybe he just isn't as clever and all-seeing as you.



It takes cleverness to not be prejudice? Hardly.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> So if I take a life for a life cos cos its in the bible and I murder someone that makes me christian. If you say so.


I think you're forgetting that he was indeed Muslim, even before he thought of doing what he did.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> It takes cleverness to not be prejudice? Hardly.


No. But it takes cleverness of a kind to reach your level of reality-denial.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I think you're forgetting that he was indeed Muslim, even before he thought of doing what he did.



So if you are a muslim and you could a violent act. Its because you are a muslim? 

Hard to escape that logic. I'm totally convinced.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> No. But it takes cleverness of a kind to reach your level of reality-denial.



On urban no less. Prejudice is permitted. Im amazed.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> So if you are a muslim and you could a violent act. Its because you are a muslim?
> 
> Hard to escape that logic. I'm totally convinced.


Why don't you come back when you've shed the hangover and can be a bit more coherent?


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> On urban no less. Prejudice is permitted. Im amazed.


Stating facts is now defined as prejudice.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Why don't you come back when you've shed the hangover and can be a bit more coherent?



Yep hangover. Not autocorrect replacing misplelt commit with could. Devastating.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Stating facts is now defined as prejudice.



Where its not relevant yes. Its yet another fucking irish bomber.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Yep hangover. Not autocorrect replacing misplelt commit with could. Devastating.


I'll spell it out for you and then stop wasting my time. He was raised Muslim. He apparently believed in an interpretation of Islam for which he and those who share such views find justification, rightly or wrongly, in the Islamic scriptures. Committing or justifying terrorist atrocities is not uncommon among such people.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?
> 
> But don't worry. Jump to your racism.
> 
> You know. Cos your a cunt.


This is a prime example of liberal stupidity. 

I'd say it was a waste of time talking to people like you but actually it's vital people like you are brought to your senses. However I'm not sure I have the energy right now.

Try reading. (I had more to that sentence but actually that covers it). 

Here's one place to start:

"The real starting point for the making of a homegrown jihadi is not ‘radicalization’ but social disengagement, a sense of estrangement from, resentment of, Western society. It is because they have already rejected mainstream culture, ideas and norms that some Muslims search for an alternative vision of the world. It is not surprising that many wannabe jihadis are either converts to Islam, or Muslims who discovered their faith only relatively late. In both cases, disenchantment with what else is on offer has led them to the black and white moral code that is Islamism. It is not, in other words, a question of being ‘groomed’ or ‘indoctrinated’ but of losing faith in mainstream moral frameworks and searching for an alternative."

RADICALIZATION IS NOT SO SIMPLE


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I'll spell it out for you and then stop wasting my time. He was raised Muslim. He apparently believed in an interpretation of Islam for which he and those who share such views find justification, rightly or wrongly, in the Islamic scriptures. Committing or justifying terrorist atrocities is not uncommon among such people.



Completely irrelevant to his decision to commit mass murder but ok. Lets focus on the religion.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> This is a prime example of liberal stupidity.
> 
> I'd say it was a waste of time talking to people like you but actually it's vital people like you are brought to your senses. However I'm not sure I have the energy right now.
> 
> ...



What has social disengagement got to do with religion. The answer is nothing. 

Where they end up is not the key to the bombing.

As you rightly say its the start. 

It must you very sad that I agree with you. I can't say if that makes you stupid too. Sorry.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

Also its incredible that I got called a liberal AGAIN!


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Completely irrelevant to his decision to commit mass murder but ok. Lets focus on the religion.


I suppose you can only do so much against this level of cretinism.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 27, 2017)

Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge' for US air strikes in Syria, Manchester bomber's sister says

" The sister of Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedibelieves her brother carried out the manchester attack because he wanted revenge for US air strikes on Syria.
Jomana Abedi said in an interview her brother was kind and loving and that she was surprised by what he did on Monday.
Ms Abedi said she thought he was driven by America's military attacks in the Middle East.
“I think he saw children - Muslim children - dying everywhere, and wanted revenge," she told the Wall Street Journal." 

Looks like he was motivated by revenge and radicalism.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I suppose you can only do so much against this level of cretinism.



Yes I'm a cretin and you are very clever. Not supported by anything in the real world. But I will be sure to doubt my intelligence next time I check.


----------



## RD2003 (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Yes I'm a cretin and you are very clever. Not supported by anything in the real world. But I will be sure to doubt my intelligence next time I check.


You're talking to the hand now I'm afraid.


----------



## butchersapron (May 27, 2017)

Earlier in this thread B.I.G argued that it would not be justified to argue that a fascist bomber was motivated by fascism. That the two are separate. And he has to to argue that to be consistent with what he has gone onto argue this morning. I wonder if any other posters taking a similar tack as him would argue the same as him as regards fascist bomb attacks?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> If people on urban are thinking people are blowing themselves up because they are muslim. No wonder the wider world is so full of hate.
> 
> I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.



Who's done that then?


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge' for US air strikes in Syria, Manchester bomber's sister says
> 
> " The sister of Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedibelieves her brother carried out the manchester attack because he wanted revenge for US air strikes on Syria.
> Jomana Abedi said in an interview her brother was kind and loving and that she was surprised by what he did on Monday.
> ...



on the other hand his father thinks he is innocent, the Mosque reported him to Prevent at least on two occasions, neighbours and friends on three occasions and he trained in Libya  after the UK government supported  his father and others to overthrow Gaddaffi. But his sister 'believes' 'thinks' its all about US airstrikes like any other Islamacist would do.


----------



## maomao (May 27, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Salman Abedi 'wanted revenge' for US air strikes in Syria, Manchester bomber's sister says
> 
> " The sister of Manchester suicide bomber Salman Abedibelieves her brother carried out the manchester attack because he wanted revenge for US air strikes on Syria.
> Jomana Abedi said in an interview her brother was kind and loving and that she was surprised by what he did on Monday.
> ...


There's certainly a point talking to misguided liberals. There's very little point talking to B.I.G though.


----------



## emanymton (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Seeing as 99.6% of all suicide bombers are muslim there might be a link? But lets not that get in the way of banning people for Islamaphobia


Isn't the more relevant statistic, the percentage of Muslims who are suicide bombers?


----------



## bimble (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork I was halfway through writing you an essay but much better you just read the link danny la rouge put up there.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

Quite a few airmiles there


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> on the other hand his father thinks he is innocent, the Mosque reported him to Prevent at least on two occasions, neighbours and friends on three occasions and he trained in Libya  after the UK government supported  his father and others to overthrow Gaddaffi. But his sister 'believes' 'thinks' its all about US airstrikes like any other Islamacist would do.



How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi took his twisted revenge out of 'love for Islam' after being radicalised by Isil preacher

Have a read of this....

And to answer your point... often close siblings know more than parents, but who knows really what ws going on in his mind.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Isn't the more relevant statistic, the percentage of Muslims who are suicide bombers?


I think they both go together


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> What has social disengagement got to do with religion. The answer is nothing.


Your logic is faulty. Social disengagement is a wider phenomenon than jihadism, but it is not unconnected that jihadis are Muslim. Think it through.

It's true that the vast majority of Muslims are not jihadis. But you can't just go ignoring the fact that jihadis are Muslim. 

I saw someone arguing on social media this morning that Japan and Bolivia don't have jihadis because they don't get involved in intervening in the Middle East. What this person missed was that they also don't have significant Muslim populations. 



> It must you very sad that I agree with you.


You don't. You've misunderstood me. 

Now, it must also be said that social disengagement doesn't always lead to jihadism, even in Muslim populations. But it can't be ignored that it does do so.

It must also be pointed out that among the socially disengaged in the non Muslim (for want of a better term) population, far right racism takes root, including violent manifestations. 

It's useful to think, as Maryam Namazi asks us to, of an Muslim "far right" and a non Muslim far right. 

She doesn't think, though, that religion is irrelevant.

You can read a recent speech by her here: 

Islam and Islamism as the greatest stumbling blocks for women’s emancipation

"As you know, In one Hadith Mohammed, Islam’s prophet says: ‘I have left behind no fitnah more harmful to men, than women'(Al-Bukhari, Muslim)."

"On the one hand, Islamic law and states are the beginning of the end of women’s rights, freethought and democratic politics."

[...]

"... because of identity politics and cultural relativism, which no longer acknowledges citizens and human beings but homogenised religious identities that unsurprisingly coincide with the impositions of Islamists and the ruling class.

This is why everything from gender segregation to the veil and Sharia are sanitised and legitimised at the expense of women’s rights.

And criticism deemed ‘Islamophobic’ – a political term used to scaremonger people into silence."


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Also its incredible that I got called a liberal AGAIN!


Why? I used it in the sense that has been explained over and over and over on these boards.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi took his twisted revenge out of 'love for Islam' after being radicalised by Isil preacher
> 
> Have a read of this....
> 
> And to answer your point... often close siblings know more than parents, but who knows really what ws going on in his mind.





bubblesmcgrath said:


> How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi took his twisted revenge out of 'love for Islam' after being radicalised by Isil preacher
> 
> Have a read of this....
> 
> And to answer your point... often close siblings know more than parents, but who knows really what ws going on in his mind.



Thanks. Yes thats often true obviously. His brother in England knew about his intentions, he rang his mother before the bomb exploded. His sister moved to Tripoli around 2008 .


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> I'm surprised some people on this thread haven't been banned for islamaphobia.


Name names, or it's just passive agression.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Name names, or it's just passive agression.


It's just passive aggression


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

bimble said:


> ItWillNeverWork I was halfway through writing you an essay but much better you just read the link danny la rouge put up there.


----------



## bimble (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


>


Was attempt to answer your 3 questions, the ones that you think make these primarily religious acts.


----------



## emanymton (May 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I think they both go together


Sure, but the second number will be very small. I don't think the 99.6 percent figure tells us much in and of itself.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Your logic is faulty. Social disengagement is a wider phenomenon than jihadism, but it is not unconnected that jihadis are Muslim. Think it through.
> 
> It's true that the vast majority of Muslims are not jihadis. But you can't just go ignoring the fact that jihadis are Muslim.
> 
> ...



If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.


----------



## maomao (May 27, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Sure, but the second number will be very small. I don't think the 99.6 percent figure tells us much in and of itself.


In fact 0% of Muslims alive today have been successful suicide bombers. I can tell you that without checking.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.


_If something which wasn't the case was the case we could...blah blah blah._

I fell asleep did I miss anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> If the UK was still a christian country we could spend all our time blaming christianity for the actions of the far right and that would make just as much sense.


Bollocks. A lot of the far right are either atheist/agnostic or pagan. You going to blame odinists on xianity? There's long been a connection between elements of the right and occultism, e.g. evola and Italian fascism, himmler and the nsdap, etc


----------



## emanymton (May 27, 2017)

maomao said:


> In fact 0% of Muslims alive today have been successful suicide bombers. I can tell you that without checking.


I was waiting for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I was waiting for that.


It's your captain mainwaring moment


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 27, 2017)

Exclusive: Manchester suicide bomber used student loan and benefits to fund terror plot

bomber was coining it in AT TAXPAYERS EXPENSE  etc.

lots of dot joining in that there article


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

I urge people to read this if they haven't already: Islam and Islamism as the greatest stumbling blocks for women’s emancipation

And though the horse has well and truly buggered off, I'm going to make another plea for giving that stable door the once over.

Islamophobia.  It means fear or hatred of Islam.  Islam is a philosophy, a religion, a set of views and ideas.  It is perfectly possible to dislike Islam or aspects of Islam without hating Muslims.  Dispute and disagreement are part and parcel of having ideas.  Indeed, they are part and parcel of a healthy society.

The trouble with the term Islamophobia is that its net is too wide.  It is too easy for people to say that disagreeing with some aspect of Islam is akin to racism; too easy for them to say “you mustn’t say that: it’s Islamophobic”.

Questioning and challenging beliefs is not the same as hating the people who hold them.  I don't think there's anything wrong with hating or being afraid of a philosophy, a set of ideas. As an atheist, there is much I dislike about Islam. Just as there is much I dislike about Judaism.

But anti-Semitism is the term used for racism towards Jews; we don’t call it Judaismophobia.  Having disputes and disagreements with Judaism is not in itself necessarily racist.

If we need a term analogous to anti-Semitism to refer to racism towards Muslims (and I’d argue that we do), then a better term would be Muslimophobia.

If religious lobbies are permitted to suggest that criticising religion, criticising ideas, is akin to racism because of flabby terms like Islamophobia, then we’re storing up future problems for all of society.


----------



## teqniq (May 27, 2017)

Apologies if already posted, saw this a couple of days ago but someone's just tweeted it again. Can't say I'm massively surprised


----------



## PursuedByBears (May 27, 2017)

Really interesting link danny la rouge, thanks.


----------



## Doubledown (May 27, 2017)

This film is a perfect simile of radical Islam and liberal political correctness.  Balanced beings being split by ancient magic into being overly do-gooding and overly evil. Both forms equally as bad.


----------



## Raheem (May 27, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Exclusive: Manchester suicide bomber used student loan and benefits to fund terror plot
> 
> bomber was coining it in AT TAXPAYERS EXPENSE  etc.
> 
> lots of dot joining in that there article



There's no reason terrorist cells can't be working towards a commercially sustainable model. Yet another example of welfarism stifling entrepreneurship.


----------



## bimble (May 27, 2017)

Such a good point danny la rouge.

This is an interesting piece of writing, examining some of the major problems with the word Islamophobia, as opposed to just saying Anti-Muslim Racism for instance.

Amongst the problems he lists is that 'The term is inappropriate for describing opinions that are basically anti-religion as distinct from anti-Islam."
But here we are and 'Despite its disadvantages, the term Islamophobia looks as if it is here to stay – it cannot now be discarded from the lexicon. Not least, this is because it has acquired legitimacy and emotional power amongst people who are at the receiving end of anti-Muslim hostility and prejudice, and acts therefore as an activist concept.."

So the job I suppose is to work at a good clear-headed _use_ of the imperfect term, so as not to let the eliding of racism and opposition to an ideology slide into one sloppy grey area.


----------



## J Ed (May 27, 2017)

Building on the article in the MiddleEastEye, the FT has an article further fleshing out on the role of the British state, British Libyan Islamists and Gaddaffi from 2011 onwards. Well worth reading.



> Throughout the years of Gaddafi rule in Libya, Manchester was a magnet for Libyan exiles like the Abedis. The city’s Libyan community, one of the largest outside Libya, is tightly knit. “Everyone knows everyone,” says one Libyan living in the city. Britain’s intelligence agencies knew the community well, too, and had longstanding dealings with its Islamist contingent. But the attack raises serious questions over their assessment of it. MI5, the UK’s domestic intelligence agency, facilitated the travel of many Islamist Mancunians back to Libya. Until recently, the UK’s spymasters have not seen the community as a particular threat. Libyan Islamists in Manchester, many believed, were too focused on waging a national jihad in their homeland to be a threat to the UK. Since the beginning of the Syrian civil war and the spate of attacks in France, Belgium and Germany, anti-terror work in the UK and Europe has focused on young returnees from Syria
> 
> ..
> 
> Ramadan Abedi, Salman’s father, was a member of the Libyan nationalist- Islamist nexus in Manchester. By some accounts, he was a senior member of the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group, the liberation movement that was the core of anti-Gaddafi Salafism. His sons grew up with tales of the injustices inflicted on devout Muslims in Libya. When Salman was 13, his father returned to Libya as part of a deal brokered between the Gaddafi regime — then keen to rehabilitate itself on the global stage — and émigré Islamists. It was an uneasy rapprochement, and one in which the UK’s intelligence agencies were deeply involved, as they sought to mine information from both sides to advance the war on terror.



Particularly damning..



> Mr Bettammer says he and other secularist campaigners tried to warn the British ambassador to Libya at the time about the number of Britons and their radical views but were rebuffed. The UK, he says, wanted to encourage them instead because it viewed the Islamist groups as a more viable anti-Gaddafi alternative to native secularists



In 2011 the British state was promoting Islamist fighters over secular democrats. Not the 1980s or 1990s or 2001 prior to September 11th. 2011.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

bimble said:


> [...]so as not to let the eliding of racism and opposition to an ideology slide into one sloppy grey area.


I fear it's too far gone already, especially on the liberal left. The  STWC types on the other hand actively encourage the elision.

B.I.G for example already can't tell the difference. That's why s/he's happy to sling the term around at decent people.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

Quick skim through that Robin Richardson paper, and I see my suggestion ("Muslimophobia") is discussed. It's correctly pointed out that it's inadequate for describing racism against secular people from a "Muslim" background.  That's a fair point.

(The people who contribute to Sister-hood Magazine seem to prefer to be called "women of Muslim heritage").

So, yes, the language is fraught with difficulties.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 27, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Apologies if already posted, saw this a couple of days ago but someone's just tweeted it again. Can't say I'm massively surprised




That Twitter account is of a self-confessed Neo Con! LOL! This is his pinned youtube vid.



Wow. Just fkn wow.


----------



## J Ed (May 27, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Quick skim through that Robin Richardson paper, and I see my suggestion ("Muslimophobia") is discussed. It's correctly pointed out that it's inadequate for describing racism against secular people from a "Muslim" background.  That's a fair point.
> 
> (The people who contribute to Sister-hood Magazine seem to prefer to be called "women of Muslim heritage").
> 
> So, yes, the language is fraught with difficulties.



It might be fraught with difficulties but I don't think it's going anywhere. Etymologically and historically the term anti-Semitism for anti-Jewish sentiment is not very good since it sounds like it could apply to any group who speak a Semitic language, and it was originally a term used to make anti-Jewish politcs 'scientific' but it's the word we have for it now so it's stuck. Same sort of thing with Islamophobia I think. With both, I don't think it's even a matter of being religious or secular, you can be a victim of anti-Semitism or Islamophobia without being Jewish or Muslim as all the Sikhs on the receiving end of hate crimes show.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

J Ed said:


> It might be fraught with difficulties but I don't think it's going anywhere. Etymologically and historically the term anti-Semitism for anti-Jewish sentiment is not very good since it sounds like it could apply to any group who speak a Semitic language, and it was originally a term used to make anti-Jewish politicals 'scientific' but it's the word we have for it now so it's stuck. Same sort of thing with Islamophobia I think. With both, I don't think it's even a matter of being religious or secular, you can be a victim of anti-Semitism or Islamophobia without being Jewish or Muslim as all the Sikhs on the receiving end of hate crimes show.


Yeah, I agree with all that. 

Like I said at the top of my post: stable door etc.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> I fear it's too far gone already, especially on the liberal left. The  STWC types on the other hand actively encourage the elision.
> 
> B.I.G for example already can't tell the difference. That's why s/he's happy to sling the term around at decent people.



The way people sling around the word liberal. You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> The way people sling around the word liberal.


Hardly. It's a descriptor which has meaning. What alternative would you prefer?




> You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.


Who are you accusing of what? Precisely please.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 27, 2017)

Exclusive: former explosives dog-handler talks May’s damage to security #GE17



> One very busy town near me puts out *8-10 cops per 10-hour shift*. That *used* to be *twenty-five* per *8*-hour shift. The paperwork and jobs have doubled since then.
> 
> *Don’t believe the politicians crime is rocketing *– people have just got to the stage of not bothering to report it.


----------



## J Ed (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> The way people sling around the word liberal. You lot have your views. No decent person would endorse the way linking terrorism to islam has on people on that faith. But do as you please.



What is Islam exactly? Is it just one religion which everyone agrees upon or are there lots of different interpretations? Is there one interpretation that is right and all the others are wrong? Are you, as a non-Muslim, in a position to make that particular theological and political judgement?


----------



## mikey mikey (May 27, 2017)

J Ed. Would you say that a  salafist and a sufi were alike?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

A fair proportion (the majority?) of victims of suicide bombing attacks are Muslims. Which tends to suggest, to me, that the main motivator for the attacks are therefore political rather than religious. Even if religion is the primary motivator, you can't get away from the fact that it's a political stance being fought for.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 27, 2017)

Religion provides a pretext (as for so many horrible human activities), the actual motivation is yes social/political.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

Punish women for not dressing correctly. Punish people for listening to music. You can argue that you're defending some archaic text but you're still fighting for ultra-conservatism.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 27, 2017)

Forever, people have raped and maimed and killed and claimed that what they were doing was OK because it was justified by their Book of Choice. Half of the Old Testament is made up of stories like this, not to mention the countless empires, kingdoms and realms throughout history who've spread themselves mainly or in part through religious custom. Islam itself spread from a small part of northern Arabia to cover all lands from the Atlas to the Himalayas, in not much over 100 years, and this did not happen through smiles and hugs and laughter. But it was all OK because it was what The Lord wanted, and it said so in The Verses. 

Beyond the psychopathy, IS specifically want a caliphate, they're looking at the huge explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries and they think they can do the same. They think this will make the world perfect, and they think it's what will please The Lord. This movement can't be negotiated with, and I think that's the hardest thing for us (in the Western World™) to deal with, so accustomed are we to negotiation, compromise and relativism.

Blah. I think I just wanted to chime in.


----------



## B.I.G (May 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> A fair proportion (the majority?) of victims of suicide bombing attacks are Muslims. Which tends to suggest, to me, that the main motivator for the attacks are therefore political rather than religious. Even if religion is the primary motivator, you can't get away from the fact that it's a political stance being fought for.



A strange unity over this post


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Forever, people have raped and maimed and killed and claimed that what they were doing was OK because it was justified by their Book of Choice. Half of the Old Testament is made up of stories like this, not to mention the countless empires, kingdoms and realms throughout history who've spread themselves mainly or in part through religious custom. Islam itself spread from a small part of northern Arabia to cover all lands from the Atlas to the Himalayas, in not much over 100 years, and this did not happen through smiles and hugs and laughter. But it was all OK because it was what The Lord wanted, and it said so in The Verses.
> 
> Beyond the psychopathy, IS specifically want a caliphate, they're looking at the huge explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries and they think they can do the same. They think this will make the world perfect, and they think it's what will please The Lord. This movement can't be negotiated with, and I think that's the hardest thing for us (in the Western World™) to deal with, so accustomed are we to negotiation, compromise and relativism.
> 
> Blah. I think I just wanted to chime in.



And then we got secular and atheist states and discovered they liked murdering people for political reasons also.
The only thing unique here is the suicide element. I doubt I'd be grateful knowing my killer hadn't killed themself whilst murdering me. I'm still dead.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 27, 2017)

Sure, if your political views are virtuous enough you can get away with using them as a pretext for some fairly ugly stuff. No gods required there. Thanks Rousseau.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

The bottom line is that if you want to oppose the people doing this, then you have to do It based on their politics. 
Saying they do it because of Islam is no use, not least because most Muslims don't do this sort of thing let alone support it and it places the left in that weird double bind where being quiet means they're effectively supporting this shit or attacking it makes them islamophobic or racist. 

Forget their religion. They're fascist cunts. Oppose them.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

Isn't it funny that the Rothschilds are Jewish?


----------



## J Ed (May 27, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> J Ed. Would you say that a  salafist and a sufi were alike?



I would say that they are both Blairites and probably voted for Liz Kendall, the scum!


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> J Ed. Would you say that a  salafist and a sufi were alike?



Best post so far. Sums up the issue in one question.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> The bottom line is that if you want to oppose the people doing this, then you have to do It based on their politics.
> Saying they do it because of Islam is no use, not least because most Muslims don't do this sort of thing let alone support it and it places the left in that weird double bind where being quiet means they're effectively supporting this shit or attacking it makes them islamophobic or racist.
> 
> Forget their religion. They're fascist cunts. Oppose them.



And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?


----------



## Cid (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Best post so far. Sums up the issue in one question.



Playing it deadpan this evening?


----------



## Raheem (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?



Insofar as that's possible, I think you can only do it by taking the politics as a starting point. You can decorate your nationalism, your monarchism, your green politics or whatever with religion, but I doubt it is going to ever be practically possible to do it the other way around.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 27, 2017)

Cid said:


> Playing it deadpan this evening?



Nope. I actually meant it. Although I have had a pint or two.


----------



## xenon (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?




OTOH arguing over interpretations of religious texts with the aim of preventing terrorism is next to useless. I spose it might have some limited function in synthasising, defendin moderate versions as practised by most adhearants. But that's for the scollars to deal with. Not an endevour for the rest of us.


----------



## The39thStep (May 27, 2017)

xenon said:


> OTOH arguing over interpretations of religious texts with the aim of preventing terrorism is next to useless. I spose it might have some limited function in synthasising, defendin moderate versions as practised by most adhearants. But that's for the scollars to deal with. Not an endevour for the rest of us.


Exactly .Its about values, principles and therefore ideology.In fact its about the sort of society that we fight for, cherish and what we stand for.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?



Then the operative word is political, no?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 27, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?
> 
> But don't worry. Jump to your racism.
> 
> You know. Cos your a cunt.


Not got anything other to say that that you're a grade A prick.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Nope. I actually meant it. Although I have had a pint or two.


Or three?


----------



## redsquirrel (May 27, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Then the operative word is political, no?


But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 27, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Or three?



Three too many. Bedtime for me.


----------



## SqueakyBumTime (May 28, 2017)

B.i.g said:
			
		

> How many school shooters are male? Or how many bombers were Irish? Or how many are palestnian in Israel?
> 
> But don't worry. Jump to your racism.
> 
> You know. Cos your a cunt.



1. All of them
2. All of them
3. All of them

It's not racism mate.

What are you? Some kind of terrorist apologist? You sick fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

Circle complete


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

A honking fake cockney hardman vs a genuinely dangerously stupid liberal.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?



The practical upshots of religious belief and custom may well be 100% political, but IME not many religious types consider their religion to actually be political. If anything people seem to like to keep politics and religion separate - though for me this shows they understand neither religion nor politics, and It was one of the main driving forces for me away from religion(s) when I grasped it as a young person thinking about things.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 28, 2017)

That would imply that the decision not to believe in a God is also a political decision.


----------



## hash tag (May 28, 2017)

Things like this don't help (an eye for an eye blinds everyone)


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> J Ed. Would you say that a  salafist and a sufi were alike?


What is this question, what does it mean?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> That would imply that the decision not to believe in a God is also a political decision.



Not believing in god(s) and not practising a religion aren't the same choice, they're separate things really.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> What is this question, what does it mean?


Use google translate


mojo pixy said:


> Not believing in god(s) and not practising a religion aren't the same choice, they're separate things really.


True, but espousing strong antitheism is a political act.


----------



## teqniq (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> What is this question, what does it mean?


If I was to hazard a guess I would say it means complete ignorance. Imo they are at opposite ends of the spectrum as interpretations of Islam, though I would be happy for someone to come along who is more of an expert to explain why I am wrong.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> espousing strong antitheism is a political act.



Again though, atheism and antitheism are definitely not the same either. And atheism isn't an implicitly political position IMO


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Religion is mostly about doing things with others isn't it, its about social practices not 'beliefs', so for most people living in non-secular societies a refusal to take part in any of that because you decide you 'don't believe in god' would probably mean exile from all social ties (no wife, no job, probably nowhere to live even), call that a political act if you want.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

People on the left have spent the last 150 years trying to get people to see social issues as political issues, to destroy the imposition of the separation of the economic and the political...and now it turns out they're really separate after all. For some anyway.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Again though, atheism and antitheism are definitely not the same either. And atheism isn't an implicitly political position IMO



Or necessarily an entirely non-religous position. Buddhists are arguably atheists, for example.


----------



## maomao (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Or necessarily an entirely non-religous position. Buddhists are arguably atheists, for example.



Maybe some chan/zen Buddhists but mainstream Buddhism is full of gods, heavens, hells and hungry ghosts.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Again though, atheism and antitheism are definitely not the same either.



Granted.



mojo pixy said:


> And atheism isn't an implicitly political position IMO



So you can see no political aspect to atheism at all?

IME it can certainly be used as a weapon politically. I have seen it enable all kinds of intolerance if the atheist in question chose to use it so.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

maomao said:


> Maybe some chan/zen Buddhists but mainstream Buddhism is full of gods, heavens, hells and hungry ghosts.



Yes, I should have written some Buddhists


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Or necessarily an entirely non-religous position. Buddhists are arguably atheists, for example.


Have you argued this with buddhists?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

dp


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> So you can see no political aspect to atheism at all?
> 
> IME it can certainly be used as a weapon politically. I have seen it enable all kinds of intolerance if the atheist in question chose to use it so.



Yes it can but my view is that it's not an implicitly political position. Being a superior dick about what we do or don't believe is also not implicitly political but it can become political, depending on who is doing it and why.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Have you argued this with buddhists?



Yea


----------



## Red Cat (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Religion provides a pretext (as for so many horrible human activities), the actual motivation is yes social/political.



There seems to be a desire to isolate and give weight to one explanation over another. What about psychological states of mind and relationships? Just because there's a mainstream media tendency to talk about evil or mad bombers as though that's any kind of explanation shouldn't mean that we ignore those aspects of someone's motivation that are harder to understand.

I know he's often mentioned, not sure how often he's read as a consequence, but Kenan Malik is very good on this complexity.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> I know he's often mentioned, not sure how often he's read as a consequence, but Kenan Malik is very good on this complexity.


Indeed.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

To be clear, religion IMO is not an explanation but a pretext for this stuff.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Yea


I was desolate and bowed my head: I have been faithful to thee, Cynara! in my fashion


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Building on the article in the MiddleEastEye, the FT has an article further fleshing out on the role of the British state, British Libyan Islamists and Gaddaffi from 2011 onwards. Well worth reading.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Or rather, "as well as in the '80s, '90s and '00s".


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> To be clear, religion IMO is not an explanation but a pretext for this stuff.


I'd partly agree. (Let me here once more endorse Red Cat's call to embrace a more complex picture).

Theological arguments are a justification-after-the-fact that jihadis use, but it's often not _how_ they become jihadis.

What we have is disengaged people looking for identity and "authenticity" (it's worth discussing each of those steps: why they're disengaged, why they seek identity, and why "authenticity" is valued. But I'll miss that out for now), and turn to what they see as "authentic" expressions of their identity.

And that's why ignoring religion as a factor will mean you miss fully understanding what is happening and why. It's because of a desire by certain people to express cultural belonging. But to do so in a "pure" manner that cannot be questioned. They intensely belong, is the point they're making.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Best post so far. Sums up the issue in one question.



Nope, it really doesn't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> And what if someone takes a political interpretation of Islam?



Then - as you'd know if you'd read the Koran - they'd be defying their own prophet, who declared that the words of Allah to his prophet must not be interpreted, and only had the meaning that Allah (through his prophet) assigned to them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?



I think that "political" is too narrow a word, and that "ideological" fits better, as it implies that faith/belief (whether secular or religious) is in play.


----------



## JimW (May 28, 2017)

From what I understand though that political aspect has always been there, like when the Safavids adopt a Shia interpretation that serves to build a Persian identity in opposition to the Sunni Ottoman in a similar way to how Protestantism helped forge English identity a little later. On the one hand there's definite religious motivations and differences on the other there's something clearly political going on and it doesn't seem sensible to make a hard and fast distinction.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> There seems to be a desire to isolate and give weight to one explanation over another. What about psychological states of mind and relationships? Just because there's a mainstream media tendency to talk about evil or mad bombers as though that's any kind of explanation shouldn't mean that we ignore those aspects of someone's motivation that are harder to understand.
> 
> I know he's often mentioned, not sure how often he's read as a consequence, but Kenan Malik is very good on this complexity.


Here's his latest: FROM LEFT RADICALISM TO RADICAL ISLAMISM

"I grew up in south Manchester, just as Salman Abedi did. But my Manchester was very different from Abedi’s. Racism in the 1970s was woven into the fabric of British society in a way unimaginable now. ‘Paki bashing’ was a national sport. Stabbings were common, firebombings of Asian houses almost weekly events, murders not uncommon."

[...]

"My fury towards Britain was not expressed through the prism of being ‘Muslim’. Partly this was because I was not religious. But partly also because few, even believers, adopted ‘Muslim’ as a public identity. We thought of ourselves as ‘Asian’, or ‘black’, but these were political, not ethnic or cultural, labels."


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Trying to learn a bit about everyday gang culture where I live (big problem here) has reinforced my sense that there are strong similarities in many ways, in what draws young men to find meaning and a sense of belonging and community and purpose within such identity-defining groups. They also have a sort of ideology/ mythology which is hard to understand from the outside (years of war against the next postcode etc) and members ready to commit acts of violence which seem senseless, also recently a high and rising death toll which gets very little coverage in the media.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Theological arguments are a justification-after-the-fact that jihadis use, but it's often not _how_ they become jihadis.
> 
> What we have is disengaged people looking for identity and "authenticity" (it's worth discussing each of those steps: why they're disengaged, why they seek identity, and why "authenticity" is valued. But I'll miss that out for now), and turn to what they see as "authentic" expressions of their identity.
> 
> And that's why ignoring religion as a factor will mean you miss fully understanding what is happening and why. It's because of a desire by certain people to express cultural belonging. But to do so in a "pure" manner that cannot be questioned. They intensely belong, is the point they're making.



No I totally agree that the actual explanations for why people get radicalized are complex and nuanced, I read a lot on this subject and in many ways i even agree with Kenan Malik. However I don't accept that religion itself has anything to do with it, above being a conveniently infallible pretext - and of course all religions feature the kind of fanatics who do this.

Just as communism and marxism can't in themselves be blamed for the actions of brutal-minded communists in certain places at times. People like to feel they're doing the right thing, and a big book endorsed by scholars is the perfect backup.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Then - as you'd know if you'd read the Koran - they'd be defying their own prophet, who declared that the words of Allah to his prophet must not be interpreted, and only had the meaning that Allah (through his prophet) assigned to them.



But the Hadiths are full of commentary, so it's OK to comment and interpret as long as you have a scholastic tradition and the power of a caliph behind you. It's just that you and I aren't allowed to do it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?



But it isn't politically uniform is it?


----------



## emanymton (May 28, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> But religion is political isn't it? I mean what does a non-political Islam (or Christianity if you prefer) look like?


True, but there has to be some distinction as well doesn't there? Otherwise everyone with the same religion would have similar politics and that's not the case. Because you know someones religion it doesn't necessarily mean you can infer anything about their politics. The two may develop alongside and shape each other. But there has to be a degree of separation.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> No I totally agree that the actual explanations for why people get radicalized are complex and nuanced, I read a lot on this subject and in many ways i even agree with Kaman Malik. However I don't accept that religion itself has anything to do with it, above being a conveniently infallible pretext - and of course all religions feature the kind of fanatics who do this.
> 
> Just as communism and marxism can't in themselves be blamed for the actions of brutal-minded communists in certain places at times. People like to feel they're doing the right thing, and a big book endorsed by scholars is the perfect backup.


Sure, but everything has context. To say "religion has nothing to do with it" is a way of removing a cultural context from what is a Social as well as an individual phenomenon. 

The point is rather than dismiss a role for religion, to ask _what_ role it plays.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

In that case we need to ask what role it plays for the billions who never strap on a bomb.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> In that case we need to ask what role it plays for the billions who never strap on a bomb.


And I think that's absolutely right. Because it's not a direct "this always causes that" issue. I know some people (not you) are reading me as saying that, but that's because they don't actually bother to look at what I am saying.


----------



## mikey mikey (May 28, 2017)




----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> And I think that's absolutely right. Because it's not a direct "this always causes that" issue. I know some people (not you) are reading me as saying that, but that's because they don't actually bother to look at what I am saying.


Sorry, I ended that abruptly. 

I'm not really able to give this my full attention because my damn family keep expecting me to, you know, acknowledge their existence. (What do they _want_ from me?)


----------



## maomao (May 28, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Sorry, I ended that abruptly.
> 
> I'm not really able to give this my full attention because my damn family keep expecting me to, you know, acknowledge their existence. (What do they _want_ from me?)


At least yours are grown up. I've got a toddler who alway needs attention right when I'm _ very very angry_ with a complete stranger.


----------



## Doubledown (May 28, 2017)

The unfairness of it is what burns
one people's religions and culture 
let not one hair be put out of place 
and every woman kept in theirs 
Politeness has become a curse
punishable to criticise an alien God
that is on the rise
Nothing about your culture be changed
let your theocracy prevail
But my heritage has just much right
not in the Koran but in the heritage of Britain
its history, its and great people and way of life
But to say so is trodden on
I won't call them do-gooders
because they do not do good
or love Islam they just hate the critic's of Islam more.
By doctrine driven as a communist directive
all facts forced a fit the party line.
Defeat the Tories through open borders
up the numbers, pander to get their vote
I do not dwell on the past, what is done is done
All have a right to exist
But there is painful grieving to be done
for the Britain which is no more.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Did you write that all by yourself Doubledown?


----------



## B.I.G (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> The unfairness of it is what burns
> one people's religions and culture
> let not one hair be put out of place
> and every woman kept in theirs
> ...



Best board banter eva.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

It's on the same level as your contributions.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 28, 2017)

regarding the post-fact piffle upthread: I might have known communism would be to blame for this at some level.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> But the Hadiths are full of commentary, so it's OK to comment and interpret as long as you have a scholastic tradition and the power of a caliph behind you. It's just that you and I aren't allowed to do it.



And neither is your common or garden Islamist radical.


----------



## B.I.G (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> It's on the same level as your contributions.



Sorry I can't be arsed waffling on about politial theory. Is there a thread / section for that nonsense?


----------



## NoXion (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> The unfairness of it is what burns
> one people's religions and culture
> let not one hair be put out of place
> and every woman kept in theirs
> ...



The God of Mohammed is the God of Abraham. So not alien to these fair isles in fact.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

Didn't know you were a British Israelite nixon.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

NoXion said:


> The God of Mohammed is the God of Abraham. So not alien to these fair isles in fact.



Without meaning to be impolite that particular claim is especially one sided, and it ought to be considered _how_ such a claim came to be made, and _why_. Not perhaps for this thread.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Without meaning to be impolite that particular claim is especially one sided, and it ought to be considered _how_ such a claim came to be made, and _why_. Not perhaps for this thread.



It's not one sided, it's down-the-line theology 101 but you're right it may not be the right thread for it.


----------



## treelover (May 28, 2017)

Guardian is reporting an explosion, screams, etc in Manchester, Moss Side, possibly controlled one by police, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

treelover said:


> Guardian is reporting an explosion, screams, etc in Manchester, Moss Side, possibly controlled one by police, etc.


Stop spreading rumours

E2A this is another article you haven't in fact read, isn't it. You're always spouting shit from the first paragraph and never reading to the end of the piece. You should be ashamed of yourself.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 28, 2017)

Armed police carry out fresh raid in Manchester amid report of explosion


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

NoXion said:


> The God of Mohammed is the God of Abraham. So not alien to these fair isles in fact.


Er I think you'll find that the jewish, christian or muslim god is in fact alien to these fair isles as those religions emanate from palestine and arabia respectively


----------



## JimW (May 28, 2017)

Alien to these fair isles but no stranger to an Aran sweater.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

The lost Britain of yore for which Doubledown pines doesn't have room for any of that imported nonsense, Jesus being a bloody foreigner too of course. Just oak trees and heroic mists, maybe some bunting.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Er I think you'll find that the jewish, christian or muslim god is in fact alien to these fair isles as those religions emanate from palestine and arabia respectively


But did these feet, in ancient times, buy a book on ley lines from a head shop just along from the King William Inn?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> And neither is your common or garden Islamist radical.



Of course not but they don't need to. Scholastic justifications for their strain of Islam already exist. I'd link to one but I really don't want to, nobody needs to read that crap (and those kinds of commentaries aren't hard to Google for)


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

While other publications, such as the FT, ask searching questions about British foreign policy and the seeming deployment of Libyan exiles in the 2011 intervention we have bag carrying for the British security services from the Guardian...

It’s a delusion to think that the terror attacks are just about foreign policy | Jonathan Freedland



> We know that Salman Abedi was a child of Libyan Islamists, vehemently opposed to Muammar Gaddafi. Imagine his rage if the west had heard the dictator’s threats to carry out a massacre in Bengazi in 2011 and done nothing. It would be similar to the jihadi venom that’s directed at the west for failing to stop Bashar al-Assad from slaughtering Muslims in Syria – a sentiment that helped win recruits to Islamic State


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> But did these feet, in ancient times, buy a book on ley lines from a head shop just along from the King William Inn?


I have just left the king William and heard a woman shout *look at at the clairvoyance books*.

The most money obsessed town I've ever been to.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> While other publications, such as the FT, ask searching questions about British foreign policy and the seeming deployment of Libyan exiles in the 2011 intervention we have bag carrying for the British security services from the Guardian...
> 
> It’s a delusion to think that the terror attacks are just about foreign policy | Jonathan Freedland



I don't suppose that we will ever know if the security services played a role in ferrying, or helping to facilitate the passage of, Abedi personally to Libya or whether that simply applies to other more prominent members of his community but a lot more people need to start asking the question because it is a very pertinent one.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It's not one sided, it's down-the-line theology 101 but you're right it may not be the right thread for it.



I disagree, but appreciate the reply.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Er I think you'll find that the jewish, christian or muslim god is in fact alien to these fair isles as those religions emanate from palestine and arabia respectively



No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Of course not but they don't need to. Scholastic justifications for their strain of Islam already exist. I'd link to one but I really don't want to, nobody needs to read that crap (and those kinds of commentaries aren't hard to Google for)



Why do you consider this stuff as 'crap'?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Of course not but they don't need to. Scholastic justifications for their strain of Islam already exist. I'd link to one but I really don't want to, nobody needs to read that crap (and those kinds of commentaries aren't hard to Google for)



I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Didn't know you were a British Israelite nixon.



Ouch!!!


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.



My only disagreement here is with the idea that an original idea existed, and even if it did, it would be possible to reconstruct, access or even understand any such construction. Renan's positivism just isn't available anymore here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> It's not one sided, it's down-the-line theology 101 but you're right it may not be the right thread for it.



Not quite "theology 101". As usual there are fundamental ontological differences, as well as textual/scriptural differences.  To put it bluntly, you could say that the basic purposes of Allah and Yahweh differ.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> My only disagreement here is with the idea that an original idea existed, and even if it did, it would be possible to reconstruct, access or even understand any such construction. Renan's positivism just isn't available anymore here.



There's always an original idea, albeit often deeply buried, but of course that idea is going to be historically situated and, therefore, possibly not amenable to modern-day analysis even by "experts", let alone laymen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> The lost Britain of yore for which Doubledown pines doesn't have room for any of that imported nonsense, Jesus being a bloody foreigner too of course. Just oak trees and heroic mists, maybe some bunting.



And Druids, don't forget the bloody Druids!


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.


Where do the gospels tell us jesus lived? And the arabian peninsula well-known as the birthplace of islam. So unless you think matthew, mark, luke, john, thomas and indeed judas, not to mention the author of acts were lying, less of your misinformed gobshitery.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's always an original idea, albeit often deeply buried, but of course that idea is going to be historically situated and, therefore, possibly not amenable to modern-day analysis even by "experts", let alone laymen.



I don't agree with the notion of an original idea - but absolutely agree with your further points. There just isn't the contemporary material available to provide a coherent picture, at least certainly from within the 'tradition' itself. The exterior material can't do so, and as you might expect, the points of variance are significant. There is still a great deal of work to be done.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> The unfairness of it is what burns
> one people's religions and culture
> let not one hair be put out of place
> and every woman kept in theirs
> ...


pisspoor platitudes


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Where do the gospels tell us jesus lived? And the arabian peninsula well-known as the birthplace of islam. So unless you think matthew, mark, luke, john, thomas and indeed judas, not to mention the author of acts were lying, less of your misinformed gobshitery.



My advice to you is to stop now. It is well meaning advice.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> My advice to you is to stop now. It is well meaning advice.


The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. They may not be indigenous, but your locating origin is problematic.



The same issue holds true for most religions - you've always got the tension between how the originators wanted their system to be perceived, what might have actually happened, and how later adherents wanted their system to be believed.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

The whole idea of a pure original truth of the scriptures is bollocks isn't it? The meaning of a thing is just its use by people in particular times and places, so it's pointless to say this interpretation of the dusty scroll is wrong that one over there is correct.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?



First I am going to ask you to stop using the short form 'bnp'. It implies and suggests, by way of association, a relationship about which I am uncomfortable and disagree with strongly.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> First I am going to ask you to stop using the short form 'bnp'. It implies and suggests, by way of association, a relationship about which I am uncomfortable and disagree with strongly.


b&p then.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> b&p then.



Thank you, I appreciate that.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd say that we DO need to read such crap, if we want to understand where Islamists are "coming from". If we read such stuff in context - both original, and modern interpreted context - we get a good picture of how corrupted from the original message the Islamist version is, and why it is corrupt.



I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.



Beats & Pieces said:


> Why do you consider this stuff as 'crap'?



Because it's violent, delusional, psychopathic and awful.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
> 
> What happens if I have the temerity to ignore your well meaning advice, bnp?



I can't speak about the development of early Christianity, but the positivist approach to early Islam (exemplified by Renan), and the identification of 'Islam' with Arabia is problematic. There are a great many questions that exist, many for which we will (sadly) not likely be able to discover an answer.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.
> 
> 
> 
> Because it's violent, delusional, psychopathic and awful.



Okay -* what is* violent, delusional etc.?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> the identification of 'Islam' with Arabia is problematic



Is the fact also problematic that the Koran and Hadiths are written in medieval Arabic and generally studying outside of that language is frowned upon, if not roundly condemned?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I've read quite a lot of that kind of thing in the last few years and I find it hard going. Knock yourself out .. IMO it's a waste of effort but by all means ruin your day on google. I'll still not link to anything because I wouldn't link to nazi crap either.



I've been an anti-fascist for nearly 40 years, and I've found that you can't understand how these variants spring up, unless you're prepared to immerse yourself in the mire.  I have copies of "Mein Kampf", "The Protocols..." and many other "crap" texts on my bookshelves, because I believe that "know your enemy" is a rational approach.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Okay -* what is* violent, delusional etc.?



I've already said I'm not going to be linking to anything. 
Try some intelligent internet searching if you need _edifying _in such a way.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've been an anti-fascist for nearly 40 years, and I've found that you can't understand how these variants spring up, unless you're prepared to immerse yourself in the mire.  I have copies of "Mein Kampf", "The Protocols..." and many other "crap" texts on my bookshelves, because I believe that "know your enemy" is a rational approach.



I have read plenty of islamist crap but all I have ever got from it is a headache, and a sense of despair that there's no way to reasonably or even rationally engage with such beliefs. Literally no way. This is why I consider it a waste of time, when we know this enemy, what do we plan to do? Protest? They don't care. Fight? That's what they want.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Sorry, I don't mean to come over as terse, but I spent several years trying to understand this kind of jihadi islamism, alone and with help from muslim friends (one of whom nearly persuaded me to convert many years ago). The only outcome for me was utter despair.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I've already said I'm not going to be linking to anything.
> Try some intelligent internet searching if you need _edifying _in such a way.



To be honest, if you wanted to explore this material I would suggest that the internet might be the _last_ place you might want to consider as a place of authority or relevant source material. What I find interesting is your apparent discovery of a single and coherent point of departure for your post.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Well I mention the internet because that's where we are. Paper books are available too if that's your thing.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Is the fact also problematic that the Koran and Hadiths are written in medieval Arabic and generally studying outside of that language is frowned upon, if not roundly condemned?



Well, in the first instance the _Qur'an_ is _not_ written in Medieval Arabic, although we might want to explore what you mean by _Qur'an_?


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I have read plenty of islamist crap but all I have ever got from it is a headache, and a sense of despair that there's no way to reasonably or even rationally engage with such beliefs. Literally no way. This is why I consider it a waste of time, when we know this enemy, what do we plan to do? Protest? They don't care. Fight? That's what they want.


I'm starting to think like this too, and trying to change my behaviour accordingly. In my case it means not going on nazi websites, not trying to edify myself about the ideology there, because all that happens is I get depressed and frightened, which is no use to anyone. Trying to understand it is a sort of instinctive response but in the end not actually useful.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

This is very good from Malik

How did the left radicalism of my Manchester youth give way to Islamism? | Kenan Malik

It seems like you can trace other similar trajectories for young men from other backgrounds as well, though perhaps there you can see the transformation more through the disintegration of collective institutions rather than the replacement of secular collective institutions with religious collective institutions and their role or lack thereof.



> Today’s angry young Islamists are not interested in the fight against austerity, the defence of the NHS or even in the struggle against racism. They are obsessed, rather, in showing solidarity with the peoples of Palestine and Chechnya and Syria. In an age in which anti-imperialist movements have faded and belief in alternatives to capitalism dissolved, radical Islam provides the illusion of being part of a global movement for change



As with the far-right, or even the increasingly myopic and unhinged centrist liberalism of the middle-classes, a lot of what drives Islamism seems to be an abandonment of the idea that things are ever going to get better for ordinary people.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

I mean the green book up on my bookshelf entitled ''Interpretation of the meanings of the noble Koran'' which was a gift from a very good friend. That book. I call that The Koran. If there's another book called The Koran, please enlighten me.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I mean the green book up on my bookshelf entitled ''Interpretation of the meanings of the noble Koran'' which was a gift from a very good friend. That book. I call that The Koran. If there's another book called The Koran, please enlighten me.



Respectfully, I don't think there is any point. I do suggest, quite strongly, that there are some books that you could read to help develop and deepen your knowledge and understanding of the subject area.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This is very good from Malik
> 
> How did the left radicalism of my Manchester youth give way to Islamism? | Kenan Malik
> 
> ...


It's not an abandonment. It's a deliberate planned attack on the way that we make things better. Materially and how we think about the same. We didn't abandon anything. The result might be disengagement from formal political processes, but not from giving a shit. We're winning despite their attacks.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> I'm starting to think like this too, and trying to change my behaviour accordingly. In my case it means not going on nazi websites, not trying to edify myself about the ideology there, because all that happens is I get depressed and frightened, which is no use to anyone. Trying to understand it is a sort of instinctive response but in the end not actually useful.



I get that, and I agree. As I've said this is something I've been reading about for quite a while and gave up because answers were not forthcoming. IME you can debate with nazis, I've scored two minor conversions over the years. I believe converting people away from IS would be still harder, but someone may one day find a way.

So yes, I change my mind. Maybe it's not a waste of time to learn, but don't approach it looking for a way to engage and argue rationally because my experience is that arguments are irrelevant in this matter. What God wants will always win, because it's what God wants. God decides when to punish and show compassion, and holy men are not to be argued with on pain of death. It's hard to even appreciate the utter absolutism, because most if not all of us have grown up in an environment where you're always allowed to question, at times even to disobey.

Also, afterlife. That's a whole nother angle. When you die you don't really die. I know a lot of people have this idea but not all of them act on it by killing themselves to get there quicker.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> It's not an abandonment. It's a deliberate planned attack on the way that we make things better. Materially and how we think about the same. We didn't abandon anything. The result might be disengagement from formal political processes, but not from giving a shit. We're winning despite their attacks.



I meant amongst ordinary people, that there has been an abandonment in the idea that things will ever get better or that another world is possible rather than neoliberalism as an elite project and ideology from the ruling class.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I meant amongst ordinary people, that there has been an abandonment in the idea that things will ever get better or that another world is possible rather than neoliberalism as an elite project and ideology from the ruling class.


Did that idea ever exist aside from it being provided by capitalism though?


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I get that, and I agree. As I've said this is something I've been reading about for quite a while and gave up because answers were not forthcoming. IME you can debate with nazis, I've scored two minor conversions over the years. I believe converting people away from IS would be still harder, but someone may one day find a way.
> 
> So yes, I change my mind. Maybe it's not a waste of time to learn, but don't approach it looking for a way to engage and argue rationally because my experience is that arguments are irrelevant in this matter. What God wants will always win, because it's what God wants. God decides when to punish and show compassion, and holy men are not to be argued with on pain of death. It's hard to even appreciate the utter absolutism, because most if not all of us have grown up in an environment where you're always allowed to question, at times even to disobey.
> 
> Also, afterlife. That's a whole nother angle. When you die you don't really die. I know a lot of people have this idea but not all of them act on it by killing themselves to get there quicker.


Why do you think there are such a high proportion of converts amongst the people who we know of who have joined up to or committed attacks in the name of Isis? This absolutism is attractive, clearly, to people who grew up with none of it.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Respectfully, I don't think there is any point. I do suggest, quite strongly, that there are some books that you could read to help develop and deepen your knowledge and understanding of the subject area.



Feel free to recommend something that has deeply informed your understanding of Islam and especially extreme jihadist versions thereof. If I haven't read it, I'd appreciate a bit of a catch up with something, since I'm now deeply engaged with the thread and could maybe do with some revision. I'll grab my green book and we can have a sing-song.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> Why do you think there are such a high proportion of converts amongst the people who we know of who have joined up to or committed attacks in the name of Isis?



I think that's a key point. Clearly something about the absolutism of certain interpretations appeals to a disaffected, disappointed, angry mind - if I do these things I'm doing things _right_, and if you don't (_you_ being all the people I fucking hate in my life) then you're evil, terrible and deserve scorn, humiliation, punishment. I condemn you utterly, and I have divine justification. It's fucking _awesome _when you look at it.

I think the _punishment _aspect is a very important one in this brand of Islam. Maybe the most important actually.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

Nothing to do with Islam though.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Of course not, but there are verses about punishment to exploit...

Like there are in the Bible, but not many christians bother with that stuff any more. Some do, obviously, and we tend to see them and call them out for what they are. We find this distinction harder with muslims, somehow.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

massive generalisations, I know. Sorry. Tear it to shreds.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Feel free to recommend something that has deeply informed your understanding of Islam and especially extreme jihadist versions thereof. If I haven't read it, I'd appreciate a bit of a catch up with something, since I'm now deeply engaged with the thread and could maybe do with some revision. I'll grab my green book and we can have a sing-song.



Certainly. As a very good primer I recommend starting with this:

Muslims: Their Religious Beliefs and Practices (Library of Religious Beliefs and Practices): Amazon.co.uk: Teresa Bernheimer, Andrew Rippin: 9780415489409: Books

It is highly readable, accessible, balanced, and wide ranging.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

_Primer_, right.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> I think that's a key point. Clearly something about the absolutism of certain interpretations appeals to a disaffected, disappointed, angry mind - if I do these things I'm doing things _right_, and if you don't (_you_ being all the people I fucking hate in my life) then you're evil, terrible and deserve scorn, humiliation, punishment. I condemn you utterly, and I have divine justification. It's fucking _awesome _when you look at it.
> 
> I think the _punishment _aspect is a very important one in this brand of Islam. Maybe the most important actually.


That's got to be a part of it, for sure. When reading about the young men who grew up secular (and were failed djs and smalltime gangters etc) before being drawn to this stuff I can't help but wonder about the importance of the attitude to women as well, the furious extremity of righteously putting women in their place. Very like that of the boys radicalised by the 'alt right' maybe but more extreme and with scripture to back it up.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> _Primer_, right.



It would certainly help anyone in respect of understanding the _Qur'an_ (as a text or otherwise). Rather more so than a rendering by Abdullah Yusuf Ali - which I think may be the 'green book' on your shelf.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I can't speak about the development of early Christianity, but the positivist approach to early Islam (exemplified by Renan), and the identification of 'Islam' with Arabia is problematic. There are a great many questions that exist, many for which we will (sadly) not likely be able to discover an answer.


Yeh. Well, as I say xianity emanated from Palestine and Islam from Arabia. Palestine was from whence the seeds of the xian faith sprang, as Arabia was for Islam

In any case neither faith native to these shores


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> I can't help but wonder about the importance of the attitude to women as well, the furious extremity of righteously putting women in their place.



All the monotheisms are good for that though aren't they, because of the he-god thing they share. Like Christianity, Islam is explicitly open to all. Some churches exist where they do still preach fire and damnation obviously, and some sects have incredibly strict rules for male and female roles. The celibate, all-male priesthood lol. OK, not lol.

The Westboro bunch spring to mind, but I've known a few like that in real life - a lot of people here might remember the scouse bloke who used to hang around here and there in London shouting _Don't be a sinner, be a winner! _If you'd talk to him he'd do that thing of asking, _Have you ever told a lie? Ever stolen anything? Then you're a sinner and only Jesus can save you!_ All that. Islam has that too, they used to be all over London but they're not allowed any more. Booksellers in Shepherds Bush, Edgeware Road, preachers at Hyde Park Corner. I don't imagine those kind of preachers preach there any more.



Beats & Pieces said:


> It would certainly help anyone in respect of understanding the _Qur'an_ (as a text or otherwise). Rather more so than a rendering by Abdullah Yusuf Ali - which I think may be the 'green book' on your shelf.



If it were the only thing I'd ever read that might be a problem. Luckily it isn't, by quite some way _AlhamduI'Illah_. I'll look for the encyclopedia or something like it in the library next time I'm there, I might find something insightful on the way.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

A big thing is though, why don't christians suicide bomb? I say wait. They will.
(ETA: just occurred to me, the _murder/suicide_ thing so beloved of the american school killer. That's close, IMO)

Meanwhile I think that suicide bombing is related entirely to the resources available to deliver the device. Suicide is taboo and punishable in Islam so you have to twist the bits about dying in war really hard to justify suicide bombing. Some preachers are clearly doing that though.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Oh yes - I remember him, oxford circus Are You a Sinner or a Winner man.


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## DotCommunist (May 28, 2017)

suicide is a sin in christianity as well, you go to hell for it. Although I think the RC are the ones who make the bigger deal of that 'mortal sin'. I'd look up the  references but cba, you all know how to use google.


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## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Jews too, preserve life is (apparently) the number one thing. Notwithstanding all the smiting of course. Tattoos are a sin and suicide means you don't get buried with the faithful.


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## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Suicide became a mortal sin later (mid-period, let's say) in christianity. Certainly in Rome suicide wasn't taboo, it was considered honourable usually and the early martyrs were kindof suicides kind of. St.Augustine changed that.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Oh yeah. The jews of Massada topped themselves (and their wives and children) heroically rather than be subject to the Romans, and got to be Zionist heroes. Not sure how they square that circle.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

IDF take their vow on Masada don't they. Scary, proper scary.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

So, religion eh?

Great.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

I didn't know that, the elevation of Massada as an iconic nationalist symbol quite recent i thought. Completely scary/ nuts yes.


----------



## D'wards (May 28, 2017)

Charles Manson interpreted the White Album as a manifesto to start a race war.

"You ain't no Beatles fan, bruv"


----------



## Doubledown (May 28, 2017)

NoXion said:


> The God of Mohammed is the God of Abraham. So not alien to these fair isles in fact.


The thing is, in the past Britain already went through that battle to separate church and state.  I don't want a new theocracy that I have to doff my hat to.  Islam may claim Allah is the Jewish God but I don't know of many Christians or Jews feel the same way. Anyway, my heritage is life of Brian and irreverent humour. Not creeping around Islam for fear of offending and risking getting my throat cut.


----------



## Athos (May 28, 2017)

D'wards said:


> Charles Manson interpreted the White Album as a manifesto to start a race war.
> 
> "You ain't no Beatles fan, bruv"



He didn't know what a helter skelter was.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> The thing is, in the past Britain already went through that battle to separate church and state


well we must have lost then given there is no formal separation between church and state here and a man in a funny hat called the archbishop of canterbury usually gives out the crowns to the queens/kings who are literally the head of state and of the state religion, CofE. You daftie


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

Indeed. Try France


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## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown You may be interested in travelling to america for the rally if you feel that you're in imminent danger of a Muslim theocracy taking over your sceptered isle.  March Against Sharia -- March for Human Rights


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## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

Why all the talk about religion? What is the relevance?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Indeed. Try France


or america. Discussed this with ma- religion may be formally tied with the state here but the society as a whole is not massively churchy imo- yet in america where it is formally seperate from the state, well. It plays more of an influence on politics than it does here imo. Not sure what to make of that


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> Oh yeah. The jews of Massada topped themselves (and their wives and children) heroically rather than be subject to the Romans, and got to be Zionist heroes. Not sure how they square that circle.



Most nationalist-Zionists don't give a wet fuck about violations of religious philosophy.


----------



## Doubledown (May 28, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> well we must have lost then given there is no formal separation between church and state here and a man in a funny hat called the archbishop of canterbury usually gives out the crowns to the queens/kings who are literally the head of state and of the state religion, CofE. You daftie


You are correct to be specific, it's a lovely thought to think of the Church of England and Isis in exactly the same category, beware the exploding C of E teacakes.


----------



## Doubledown (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> Doubledown You may be interested in travelling to america for the rally if you feel that you're in imminent danger of a Muslim theocracy taking over your sceptered isle.  March Against Sharia -- March for Human Rights
> View attachment 107883


Islam so depresses me, to me it makes Britain a more lonely and divided place. But I do think love and goodness can overcome all things.   Everyone is doing the best for themselves their family and their community, it's all just life.  And I know it doesn't help dwelling on the past, one just has to look on the positive side


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Islam so depresses me, to me it makes Britain a more lonely and divided place. But I do think love and goodness can overcome all things.   Everyone is doing the best for themselves their family and their community, it's all just life.  And I know it doesn't help dwelling on the past, one just has to look on the positive side



I'm not one of these liberal people who is doing one of these no true Scotsman routines about Islamist terrorists_,_ but some of the kindest, most community minded people I know are practising Muslims. The loneliness and atomisation that you are talking about has nothing to do with Muslims, the atomisation of communities is something that happens across the country and it occurs in places where there are no Muslims at all. I think that it is far more linked to the decline of collective institutions which includes but is not limited to religious groups, trade unions and football clubs, the ever increasing number of hours we week on average and technology.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I'm not one of these liberal people who is doing one of these no true Scotsman routines about Islamist terrorists_,_ but some of the kindest, most community minded people I know are practising Muslims. The loneliness and atomisation that you are talking about has nothing to do with Muslims, the atomisation of communities is something that happens across the country and it occurs in places where there are no Muslims at all. I think that it is far more linked to the decline of collective institutions which includes but is not limited to religious groups, trade unions and football clubs, the ever increasing number of hours we week on average and technology.


He's not a real person j. Don't waste your time.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

The demise of collective institutions like religious groups, yes that's where the problem lies.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> The demise of collective institutions like religious groups, yes that's where the problem lies.



In terms of atomisation, yes I think in part this is true.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> The demise of collective institutions like religious groups, yes that's where the problem lies.


Why do you do this? The point was about the context within which religious groups operate to the benefit of their members. The destruction of the context that led to people identifying as religious within a wider movement is left out of this disgusting smug glib commentary by you. And commentary is all it is.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Why all the talk about religion? What is the relevance?



For me that's the point, but still Islam itself comes up again and again and in this thread it's been asked, what role it plays.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

ok, I'm disgusting smug and glib. More football clubs and more church it is that would help.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> For me that's the point, but still Islam itself comes up again and again and in this thread it's been asked, why it should be completely discounted when looking for reasons.


Why should it be ¿why should any materially produced way of viewing and then ordering/producing the world be excused from dealing with the next results of its existence?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> ok, I'm disgusting smug and glib. More football clubs and more church it is that would help.



Or anything with a community focus really.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Or anything with a community focus really.


Yeah, but what community. The community of church / football not open to me for instance, not really. Local activism is though.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> ok, I'm disgusting smug and glib. More football clubs and more church it is that would help.



Why is this so black and white for you? I did not say a positive word about religious communities or football, although I have some things that are positive to say about the former and much more that is positive to say about the latter. Clearly there are very good things to say about the decline of religious communities in some ways, particularly for people whose idenities finds them at odds with those communities in some way. That wasn't brought up though, what was brought up was atomisation.


----------



## not-bono-ever (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> Islam so depresses me, to me it makes Britain a more lonely and divided place. But I do think love and goodness can overcome all things.   Everyone is doing the best for themselves their family and their community, it's all just life.  And I know it doesn't help dwelling on the past, one just has to look on the positive side




the religion is not the same as ideology in discussion


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> Yeah, but what community. The community of church / football not open to me for instance, not really. Local activism is though.



Regarding the latter, social enquiry to discover what the community is missing (a community centre, perhaps?) followed by a campaign for that thing involving the community. A good starting point?


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Agree about atomisation, of course. But the craving for a sense of belonging is part of our condition now, and you have to think about what answers to that are any good and which are not.
Obviously Isis is an answer to that, that pain of not feeling part of anything meaningful , as are the gangs round where I live.


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Why should it be ¿why should any materially produced way of viewing and then ordering/producing the world be excused from dealing with the next results of its existence?



It should not.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

Ping pong vicar?


----------



## mojo pixy (May 28, 2017)

No, I agree. My point since the start is that it's not Islam that is the problem. It's people taking a scripture and twisting it to fit their own ends, getting angry kids to want to die for them because they desperately want to believe it's the right thing to do and god wants it.

I've also been admitting since the start that not only do I have no idea how to fix it, I'm not actually sure there is a way.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> ok, I'm disgusting smug and glib. More football clubs and more church it is that would help.


You so frequently do this and it's not a good look


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

Doubledown said:


> The thing is, in the past Britain already went through that battle to separate church and state.  I don't want a new theocracy that I have to doff my hat to.  Islam may claim Allah is the Jewish God but I don't know of many Christians or Jews feel the same way. Anyway, my heritage is life of Brian and irreverent humour. Not creeping around Islam for fear of offending and risking getting my throat cut.


Never noticed the bishops in the Lords then


----------



## gosub (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Never noticed the bishops in the Lords then


That's more down to being sizable land owners


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Ah never mind. I have tried to explain myself. Yes atomisation is the problem of our time. But ISIS is a perfect example of a solution to that, through "community", creating shared identity & making meaning.
So it is necessary to think about this a bit better imo not just lament the demise of football clubs and church.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> No, I agree. My point since the start is that it's not Islam that is the problem. It's people taking a scripture and twisting it to fit their own ends, getting angry kids to want to die for them because they desperately want to believe it's the right thing to do and god wants it.
> 
> I've also been admitting since the start that not only do I have no idea how to fix it, I'm not actually sure there is a way.



I'm not sure it makes sense for people who aren't Muslims, or aren't a member of whatever religion we are talking about, to think of things in this way. Surely to think of others as twisting scripture, we need to believe in it ourselves in some way or another. I'm not religious, so I don't really think I have any position on whether Twelvers or Deobandis have the right 'take' on Islamic scripture just as I don't really know whether Quakers or the Russian Orthodox have the right interpretation of the Bible.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> So it is necessary to think about this a bit better imo not just lament the demise of football clubs and church.



Who is doing this??


----------



## Pickman's model (May 28, 2017)

bimble said:


> Yes atomisation is the problem of our time.


Not climate change or housing or financial advice instability or the approaching general war then.


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Not climate change or housing or financial advice instability or the approaching general war then.


Yeah, all the above just symptoms.


----------



## butchersapron (May 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Who is doing this??


Everyone else. All the time. The idiots.


----------



## Humberto (May 28, 2017)

I think the politics of hate and division is their resort to fend off a politics of equality and universality.


----------



## J Ed (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Everyone else. All the time. The idiots.



Well I'm too busy baking for the vicar to realise all of this I think


----------



## bimble (May 28, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Everyone else. All the time. The idiots.


If you have a spare moment please tell Trumped how you feel about me, he keeps joining our names together and it's just wrong in so many ways.


----------



## nastybobby (May 29, 2017)

Remembered this anecdote from Tony Wilson's book from 2002: '24 Hour Party People'. Hopefully, it illustrates how and why Mancunians will ultimately overcome such horrific extremism.

But ask again, and again, why Manchester?
A half-hour profile - sorry - small, cheap documentary, of the textile
billionaire David Alliance, big boss of Coates Viyella, answered the ques-
tion, 'why Manchester?' once and for all. Alliance was answering the
question from Wilson the interviewer: 'Why do you, one of Britain's rich-
est industrialists, keep your head office in Manchester and continue to live
in Manchester?'
'I'll tell you why.'
Forty years in England had only mellowed the delightful Middle-Eastern
lilt of his speech. Alliance was a handsome, charismatic man in his mid-
fifties who once tried to warn his friend the Shah of Iran, 'You're feeding
their bellies, you've got to start feeding their minds.'
I'll tell you why. When I had been in this country from my home in Persia
no more than ten days, I was looking for my uncle's house in Clyde Road in
West Didsbury. I was sheltering from the rain under the awnings of the old
Rediffusion cinema in East Didsbury. I spoke maybe ten words of English. I
had the address on a piece of paper. I saw a woman pushing a pram, I
showed her the address and she indicated I should follow her. We walked,
perhaps a mile and a half, through the rain, and finally got to Clyde Road
and got to my uncle's house. I knocked. He opened the door and flung his
arms round me, shouting, "Davoud, Davoud." And I looked back and the
woman waved and walked back the way we had come, pushing the pram.
'I turned to my uncle and said, "She wasn't coming this way, why did
she come all this way if she wasn't coming this way?"

"Davoud, because this is Manchester."'

(Page 205)


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi was radicalised by his links to Libya



> After his father returned to Libya, Abedi reportedly shuttled back and forth between a bustling Manchester and a traumatised Tripoli. Some reports suggest he was in Libya for the uprising in 2011 and was injured in 2014 in Ajdabiya in eastern Libya while fighting for an Islamist faction. But in neither country did he find a sense of belonging



How? Why was someone who 'was known' to the security services as a (potential?) Salafist terrorist who was a member of a family connected to the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group allowed to 'shuttle back and forth' between Manchester and Tripoli? Who was shuttling him back and forth? Did no one notice this constant movement to and from a warzone in which Al-Qaeda played such a prominent role? Why is no one asking these questions? Why isn't _this article_ asking those questions?


----------



## LDC (May 29, 2017)

.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 29, 2017)

Don't know if this has been posted yet, but it's relevant in terms of the discussion that's been going on:

Inside the minds of the Isis murderers


----------



## bimble (May 29, 2017)

J Ed said:


> How Manchester bomber Salman Abedi was radicalised by his links to Libya
> 
> 
> 
> How? Why was someone who 'was known' to the security services as a (potential?) Salafist terrorist who was a member of a family connected to the Libyan Islamic Fighting Group allowed to 'shuttle back and forth' between Manchester and Tripoli? Who was shuttling him back and forth? Did no one notice this constant movement to and from a warzone in which Al-Qaeda played such a prominent role? Why is no one asking these questions? Why isn't _this article_ asking those questions?



They are asking them, what will come of it who knows. 
MI5 opens inquiries into missed warnings over Manchester terror threat

There's also this: 
"Suspected Islamist terrorists are being prevented from returning to the UK for the first time, the home secretary has disclosed". 
So until yesterday that wasn't happening at all, the 23,000 or so people on the list were able to come and go to wherever no questions asked, now they'll have to go 'engage with authorities' on their return from travels.


----------



## bimble (May 29, 2017)

Good article, and very relevant to what was being said here yesterday. Takes as its starting point a 18 year old neo-nazi turned Jihadi who shot a bunch of people in Florida last week: 
Pathway to extremism: what neo-Nazis and jihadis have in common

_"But Arthur’s switch in allegiance raises a key question for analysts looking at the process of radicalisation: to what extent the factors that attract people to extremism are specific to a particular ideology at all..
_
Though it is almost impossible to create a typical terrorist profile, some research shows that _“seekers” who are looking for a particular form of “brotherhood” or cause that can give their lives meaning are particularly prone to radicalisation."
_


----------



## danny la rouge (May 29, 2017)

bimble said:


> Good article, and very relevant to what was being said here yesterday. Takes as its starting point a 18 year old neo-nazi turned Jihadi who shot a bunch of people in Florida last week:
> Pathway to extremism: what neo-Nazis and jihadis have in common
> 
> _"But Arthur’s switch in allegiance raises a key question for analysts looking at the process of radicalisation: to what extent the factors that attract people to extremism are specific to a particular ideology at all..
> ...


Pretty sure I linked this elsewhere, but it's worth putting up again:

Opinion | The Jihadi State of Mind


It's Kenan Malik, making a similar point. 


"I have written before about the increasingly blurred lines between ideological violence and sociopathic rage. There is now what we might call a “jihadi state of mind,” in which some mixture of social disengagement, moral dissolution, unleavened misanthropy and inchoate rage drives some to see the most abhorrent expressions of violence as a kind of revolt."

"It is a state of mind that finds its most vicious, barbaric form in Islamist terror. But it’s not only in Islamist terror that it finds expression."


----------



## teqniq (May 29, 2017)

FBI 'warned MI5 in January that Salman Abedi was planning terror attack in UK'


----------



## Doubledown (May 29, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I'm not one of these liberal people who is doing one of these no true Scotsman routines about Islamist terrorists_,_ but some of the kindest, most community minded people I know are practising Muslims. The loneliness and atomisation that you are talking about has nothing to do with Muslims, the atomisation of communities is something that happens across the country and it occurs in places where there are no Muslims at all. I think that it is far more linked to the decline of collective institutions which includes but is not limited to religious groups, trade unions and football clubs, the ever increasing number of hours we week on average and technology.


I appreciate the point you are making and think it is a good one.  Practising Muslims are good and noble people.  Politeness, kindness and respect go a long way but for me the issue is that communities don't really grow together in true strength unless they can intermarry easily.  That's where the true bond of interconnection takes place, in my opinion, children and families mingling.  Property and money coming together.  But for the most part Muslims are a society within our society, not the only one of course but it's very difficult for both parties, Muslims and non-Muslims to really get close together.

Charming educated Muslim students and co-workers are delightful but when it comes to marriage it separates off.  I'm generalising enormously, is different for kids of the original immigrants from the seventies and eighties.  But in my opinion there is a constant stream of new very traditional, and recent immigration which keeps the division going and the strictness of Islam up.  Also it is very common particularly in Arabic communities to have very large families all of a very separate identity to British values.  There is an aspect of survival of the fittest and you can be bred out of your country, it goes back to the old Testament with Egypt. The point is problems are going to occur when you get to polarised groups that can't really get to know each other through traditional or language barriers.  It's hard to get to know people at the best of time when there are language and cultural barriers it even harder, this works both ways.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2017)

bimble said:


> The demise of collective institutions like religious groups, yes that's where the problem lies.



Oh dear.

He mentioned religious groups as an example, not as an exemplar.  His focus was on the demise of collective institutions.  The issue is - or should be - that the solidarities that come with membership of collective institutions have been deliberately eroded along with the institutions themselves.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 29, 2017)

bimble said:


> Ah never mind. I have tried to explain myself. Yes atomisation is the problem of our time.



But what is "atomisation" at the end of the day?  The term gets bandied around to supposedly describe an existential state, but it seems to me that what it often actually describes is an induced state of aloneness, of people indoctrinated with individualism so deeply that collectivity has been made to seem somehow "wrong". 



> But ISIS is a perfect example of a solution to that, through "community", creating shared identity & making meaning.
> So it is necessary to think about this a bit better imo not just lament the demise of football clubs and church.



ISIS aren't an example of "community", they're an example of individuals interpollating with a particular religious identity, and then calling their (rather loose) collective a "community".  As for "shared identity", half of the twats are foggy about what the fuck Islam is.  What they share is an antipathy to the society they're attempting to leave behind (although a significant minority want to leave ISIS behind in turn).


----------



## Wilf (May 29, 2017)

Tony Walter, survivor of 7/7 has (seemingly) killed himself, after the Westminster attack and the Manchester bomb:
Survivor of London 7/7 bombings took own life hours after Manchester Arena attack
RIP 
What a fucked up world.


----------



## brogdale (May 29, 2017)

Damaging, if true.


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Damaging, if true.
> 
> View attachment 107914



As far as I can tell Bastani is inferring this from the same sources we have read here.


----------



## extra dry (May 29, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Tony Walter, survivor of 7/7 has (seemingly) killed himself, after the Westminster attack and the Manchester bomb:
> Survivor of London 7/7 bombings took own life hours after Manchester Arena attack
> RIP
> What a fucked up world.


Sounds very sad. Hope other survivors are getting the support they need.


----------



## LDC (May 29, 2017)

Not sure what the complex and detailed truth behind Bastani's tweet is, or if he has some inside tip, or if he's just repeating what's been said/hinted at elsewhere.

Okayed? Really? Or just let go as legally it's really hard for someone to be stopped from leaving the country. On the arguments people are using you could say both people going to fight with IS and the YPG have been 'okayed' by the security services.


----------



## Raheem (May 29, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Not sure what the complex and detailed truth behind Bastani's tweet is, or if he has some inside tip, or if he's just repeating what's been said/hinted at elsewhere.
> 
> Okayed? Really? Or just let go as legally it's really hard for someone to be stopped from leaving the country. On the arguments people are using you could say both people going to fight with IS and the YPG have been 'okayed' by the security services.



People fighting with ISIS, YPG etc are breaking the law, and they can be put on trial if the authorities become aware of their plans, and either put on trial if they return or (only if they have dual nationality) denied re-entry to the country. If any of those options were considered and decided against, then "okayed" doesn't seem like a ridiculous description.


----------



## LDC (May 29, 2017)

No, people fighting with the YPG/J are not breaking the law. Which law do you think they've broken?


----------



## Wilf (May 29, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Damaging, if true.
> 
> View attachment 107914


I'm confused. That would be 2011, when his parents went back to Libya - but afaik, _he didn't_.  I'm as confused as others with the world 'cleared', but that aside, is the claim that he was cleared, but didn't actually go?


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm confused. That would be 2011, when his parents went back to Libya - but afaik, _he didn't_.  I'm as confused as others with the world 'cleared', but that aside, is the claim that he was cleared, but didn't actually go?



All of this is very confused, there are reports that he fought in 2011 as well. In a sense it doesn't matter, since plenty of people _like him_ went to fight in Libya and their travel was faciltiated by Mi6 and in any case the destabilisation of the country was what allowed ISIS to gain a foothold there anyway, but it would be good to have clarification.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 29, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, people fighting with the YPG/J are not breaking the law. Which law do you think they've broken?



Likely an issue of choice.


----------



## Raheem (May 29, 2017)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> No, people fighting with the YPG/J are not breaking the law. Which law do you think they've broken?



Foreign Enlistment Act 1870. It's true that they are unlikely to be prosecuted in that case. But Abedi is supposed to have enlisted with a proscribed terrorist organisation.


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

I missed this on Friday


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

Another claim here at the start of the article that Abedi was personally cleared to go and fight in Libya but it seems to be based on the more general claims made in the FT and MiddleEastEye articles mentioned upthread.


----------



## Wilf (May 29, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Another claim here at the start of the article that Abedi was personally cleared to go and fight in Libya but it seems to be based on the more general claims made in the FT and MiddleEastEye articles mentioned upthread.


Words like _presided over_ and _facilitated_ suggest this is nothing specific enough to trouble May this side of the election.  To even give the story legs would probably take something like Andy Burnham making a speech challenging her explicitly.  However that's not the way to think about it.  It does though get to the heart of government's willingness to play the game of 'good jihad/bad jihadi' - and the consequences of that.


----------



## LDC (May 29, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Foreign Enlistment Act 1870. It's true that they are unlikely to be prosecuted in that case. But Abedi is supposed to have enlisted with a proscribed terrorist organisation.



Nope doesn't apply. It only applies if you're joining a military that's fighting a country at peace with the UK.


----------



## DotCommunist (May 29, 2017)

with the abedi/libya trip it does get me wondering, same as moazzam begg, if the security forces aren't happy to have what they consider to be disposable/denial assets/sources of info in these places. Is that too tinfoil?


----------



## DotCommunist (May 29, 2017)

I don't mean actually employed or even recruited perhaps, but traceable, can be leaned on etc...


----------



## J Ed (May 29, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> with the abedi/libya trip it does get me wondering, same as moazzam begg, if the security forces aren't happy to have what they consider to be disposable/denial assets/sources of info in these places. Is that too tinfoil?



The FT piece went further than that, it said that they were actively using the British-Libyans as a counterweight to more secular members of the opposition to Gaddaffi.


----------



## danny la rouge (May 30, 2017)

Manchester attack: Ariana Grande to play benefit concert on Sunday - BBC News

She's got my admiration for doing this. It must be a very difficult thing for her to contemplate.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> Manchester attack: Ariana Grande to play benefit concert on Sunday - BBC News
> 
> She's got my admiration for doing this. It must be a very difficult thing for her to contemplate.



Although a cynic may note it raises her profile somewhat.


----------



## binka (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Although a cynic may note it raises her profile somewhat.


That's unfair


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

binka said:


> That's unfair



It is; and I don't think she's exploiting it for personal gain. I mean, what else could she do? 
But it does raise her profile.


----------



## binka (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It is; and I don't think she's exploiting it for personal gain. I mean, what else could she do?
> But it does raise her profile.


I don't think the benefit concert will raise her profile much above what it is folllowing a terrorist attach at her last gig that resulted in global coverage for days on end


----------



## danny la rouge (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Although a cynic may note it raises her profile somewhat.


Her profile was raised through no fault of her own. Many people who'd never heard of her have now. Including me. (My daughters are older than her core audience now, and have somewhat different tastes anyway).

I wouldn't have blamed her for never stepping back on a stage again. But she's doing so very quickly and back in Manchester. She's got my support.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

binka said:


> I don't think the benefit concert will raise her profile much above what it is folllowing a terrorist attach at her last gig that resulted in global coverage for days on end



True. And arguably she has done anything but benefited given she's now cancelled a tour.


----------



## hot air baboon (May 30, 2017)

Theresa May wouldn't even go on stage to do a leadership debate with JC


----------



## bimble (May 30, 2017)

She's got this up on her tweeter. And all profits form the concert will go the families directly effected apparently.  So yeah, good on her.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 30, 2017)

danny la rouge said:


> She's got my admiration for doing this. It must be a very difficult thing for her to contemplate.



Very much agreed.

I hope loads of the Arena attendees are able/feel able to go along.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Although a cynic may note it raises her profile somewhat.


I think you'll find her profile was recently raised significantly


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I think you'll find her profile was recently raised significantly



It was a daft point for sure given she's inextricably linked to it through no choice of her own, as others have pointed out.


----------



## Red Cat (May 30, 2017)

It wasn't a daft point, you attacked her and her generosity.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> It wasn't a daft point, you attacked her and her generosity.



Oh you're wanting to push this? Well let's be clear that it probably isn't her making the decisions rather than whichever corporation she's signed to. I wonder if it'll be televised.

And I attacked nobody. I said a cynic might conclude...


----------



## bimble (May 30, 2017)

You are being crass as fuck. The only time i witnessed deadly violence was a complete shambles for weeks, jumped at slightest thing, useless ball of nerves, and you're going to carry on with the idea that she's only doing this cos a corporation told her to, bollocks. Unnecessary.


----------



## Red Cat (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Oh you're wanting to push this? Well let's be clear that it probably isn't her making the decisions and whichever corporation she's signed to. I wonder if it'll be televised.



Looks like its you that's pushing it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

bimble said:


> You are being crass as fuck. The only time i witnesses deadly violence was a complete shambles for weeks, jumped at slightest thing, useless ball of nerves, and you're going to carry on with the idea that she's only doing this cos a corporation told her to, bollocks. Unnecessary.



I backed away from it but cheers for dragging me back in. 
And my comments are about the industry. Making it about her just feeds  from the whole PR arm of it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Red Cat said:


> Looks like its you that's pushing it.



Maybe I'm disillusioned because of Band Aid and Live Aid.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe I'm disillusioned because of Band Aid and Live Aid.


Yeh but that was geldof and bono. AG seems made of different stuff, more backbone and better


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but that was geldof and bono. AG seems made of different stuff, more backbone and better



I'll admit ignorance about her here. If she's an artist (prince, Amy winehouse) then fair dos. If she's a performer, then she's on a wage and has zero say over this stuff.


----------



## bimble (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'll admit ignorance about her here. If she's an artist (prince, Amy winehouse) then fair dos. If she's a performer, then she's on a wage and has zero say over this stuff.


 Are you drunk? She should shut up unless you personally approve of her music?


----------



## J Ed (May 30, 2017)

People respond to traumatic events in a variety of different ways.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I'll admit ignorance about her here. If she's an artist (prince, Amy winehouse) then fair dos. If she's a performer, then she's on a wage and has zero say over this stuff.


Not all artists are helpless pawns parading around at the whims of their record company, you know. 

For you to keep on dismissing her in this manner is extremely patronising.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

bimble said:


> Are you drunk? She should shut up unless you personally approve of her music?



Maybe I am as you don't understand what I've written. I'd check if she has writing credits for her music as my starting point if I could be arsed, but I backed away from this posts ago before you and RC decided I should be held to account.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

editor said:


> Not all artists are helpless pawns parading around at the whims of their record company, you know.
> 
> For you to keep on dismissing her in this manner is extremely patronising.



I know nothing about her which I admitted. But even Prince, who literally wrote every single song and instrument was at the mercy of EMI hence his name change and 'slave' antics.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe I'm disillusioned because of Band Aid and Live Aid.


She clearly gives something of a fuck about a lot of issues.



> At the age of ten Grande co-founded the South Florida youth singing group Kids Who Care, which performed for charitable fund-raising events and raised over $500,000 for charities in 2007 alone.[242] In 2009, as a member of the charitable organization Broadway in South Africa, Grande, along with her brother Frankie, performed and taught music and dance to children in Gugulethu, South Africa. After watching _Blackfish_, she urged fans to stop supporting SeaWorld and became a vegan.
> 
> She was featured, along with Bridgit Mendler and Kat Graham, in _Seventeen_ magazine in a March 2013 public campaign to end online bullying called "Delete Digital Drama".[246] In September 2014, Grande participated at the charitable Stand Up to Cancer television program, performing the title track "My Everything" in dedication to her grandfather, who had died from cancer in July. Grande, who has adopted several rescue dogs as pets, promoted pet adoption and paid the adoption fees of 35 rescue dogs in connection with her concerts at Madison Square Garden in New York City and American Airlines Arena in Miami in March 2015.  In 2016, she launched, with MAC Cosmetics, a line of lip shades called "Ariana Grande's MAC Viva Glam". All of the profits benefit people affected by HIV and AIDS.
> 
> In May 2015, Grande and Miley Cyrus performed a cover of Crowded House's "Don't Dream It's Over" to raise awareness for Cyrus's Happy Hippie Foundation, which helps homeless and LGBT youths.  The song was part of Cyrus's series of "Backyard Sessions" collaborations.  In June 2015, Grande headlined the Dance On the Pier event, part of the LGBT Pride Week in New York City,  In 2016, Grande joined Madonna to raise funds for orphaned children in Malawi.[255] Grande and Victoria Monét recorded a 2016 song, "Better Days", in support of the Black Lives Matter movement.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

I haven't denied she does. I'm discussing the exploitative nature of the industry which people seem desperate to ignore.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I know nothing about her which I admitted. But even Prince, who literally wrote every single song and instrument was at the mercy of EMI hence his name change and 'slave' antics.


That's totally irrelevant.  Oh and his contract was with Warners.



> *The fallout with Warner and the birth of Symbol (1993-1996)*
> In the buildup to the release of The Gold Experience, Prince and Warner were at loggerheads over both money and his music. He decided to take the battle public by appearing with the word “Slave” written on the side of his face. His argument was that he was signed to Warner and they, as a result, owned and controlled his name as well as any music released under that name. He changed his name to that of a symbol and was referred to, variously, as “Symbol”, “Squiggle” or “the Artist Formerly Known as Prince”. This coincided with George Michael’s ill-fated attempt to get out of his contract with Sony, which he had termed “professional slavery”, meaning the record labels had a serious PR battle on their hands that they could not afford to lose. Unable to break free completely, Prince fulfilled the terms of his contract with a rapid run of albums, some of which were regarded as a shameless purging of studio tapes and offcuts just to make up the numbers.


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe I am as you don't understand what I've written. I'd check if she has writing credits for her music as my starting point if I could be arsed, but I backed away from this posts ago before you and RC decided I should be held to account.





Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't denied she does. I'm discussing the exploitative nature of the industry which people seem desperate to ignore.


Definitely not the right thread for discussing such matters.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven't denied she does. I'm discussing the exploitative nature of the industry which people seem desperate to ignore.


Nice twist there, but it's clear that you have been talking about Grande.


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> Definitely not the right thread for discussing such matters.


Absolutely.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

editor said:


> Nice twist there, but it's clear that you have been talking about Grande.



She can be separated from the industry?


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (May 30, 2017)

So, you going to the gig then, Magnus McGinty ?


----------



## editor (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She can be separated from the industry?


In this particular case and at this particular time in this particular thread: fuck yes. You have no idea about her relationship with her record company, so why are you cluelessly ruminating about it, in this thread, of all places? You've already said you know fuck all about the artist.


----------



## Glitter (May 30, 2017)

I should have been at the MEN tonight.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

editor said:


> In this particular case and at this particular time in this particular thread: fuck yes. You have no idea about her relationship with her record company, so why are you cluelessly ruminating about it, in this thread, of all places? You've already said you know fuck all about the artist.



Given the nature of this site, I assumed to be given a fairer hearing over the exploitative nature of corporations over events - to promote products and make more money. 
Maybe she works for a different one than all the others.


----------



## bimble (May 30, 2017)

Just remembered that one of the band members in 'Eagles Of Death Metal' (the Balaclan attack concert) decided to respond by ranting on Fox news about how it was a false flag and jews probably done it, or something. But you know, why not post shitty comments about someone who responds by doing a benefit gig instead.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Maybe the record company could just take a million quid out of their coffers and give it to the victims and families without fanfare. 
But then, what's in it for them?


----------



## Saul Goodman (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Given the nature of this site, I assumed to be given a fairer hearing over the exploitative nature of corporations over events - to promote products and make more money.
> Maybe she works for a different one than all the others.





Magnus McGinty said:


> Maybe the record company could just take a million quid out of their coffers and give it to the victims and families without fanfare.
> But then, what's in it for them?


Why not attend some of the children's funerals and voice your concerns, with a 'FUCK THE RECORD INDUSTRY' banner held proudly aloft. I'm sure it would be deemed equally appropriate.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (May 30, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> True. And arguably she has done anything but benefited given she's now cancelled a tour.



She's really in a no win situation.  If she gives a benefit concert, she's exploiting it, if she doesn't, then the media piles on with "she's a selfish shit who doesn't care, as Piers Morgan claimed (Yes, I know .... Daily Mail, etc.).


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> Why not attend some of the children's funerals and voice your concerns, with a 'FUCK THE RECORD INDUSTRY' banner held proudly aloft. I'm sure it would be deemed equally appropriate.



Or one that says "radicalism has become a liberal shithole so no wonder McDonald's will fucking help"


----------



## LDC (May 30, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't mean actually employed or even recruited perhaps, but traceable, can be leaned on etc...



Yes, they can definitely be leaned on, or asked to give a de-brief on what they know/have seen. Whether they will be (leaned on/interviewed) depends on how useful the info they might have might be, and probably how busy the security services and friends are.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Starbucks have got an offer on, buy drinks everyone. 
What happened?


----------



## bimble (May 30, 2017)

You're drunk Magnus McGinty, go home.


----------



## killer b (May 30, 2017)

Fucksake. Take down the cunt flag mcginty, you've totally misfired this one.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (May 30, 2017)

Fair point. I tried to ages ago tbf.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 31, 2017)

John Pilger
http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

I like Grande - my daughter is very, very similar to her.


----------



## binka (May 31, 2017)

Will definitely be trying to get tickets when they go on sale tomorrow morning - £40 each which is pretty reasonable considering


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> John Pilger
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/



The sect known as 'Wahabbism or Salafism'? Fuck off John. This isn't Vietnam.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> The sect known as 'Wahabbism or Salafism'? Fuck off John. This isn't Vietnam.



Not sure what your point is. Certainly it's ok to call Wahabbism / Salafism "sects". Quite why we are backing the spiritual home of those sects and allowing islamic extremists in and out our country to carry out massacres - well I aint so sure about that.  It's different from Vietnam in many regards.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

It's John Pilger. Mr Vietnam. What else needs to be said (without mentioning his writing for the 'New Statesman').


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It's John Pilger. Mr Vietnam. What else needs to be said (without mentioning his writing for the 'New Statesman').


if you disagree with him, perhaps you could criticise his article. after all, you read all those intellectual books so should be able to nail his ass.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if you disagree with him, perhaps you could criticise his article. after all, you read all those intellectual books so should be able to nail his ass.



'Intellectual books'? I read books Picky, just like you.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> 'Intellectual books'? I read books Picky, just like you.


yeh. in that case you really should be able to criticise his article rather than just having a shit pop at him.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. in that case you really should be able to criticise his article rather than just having a shit pop at him.



No. Pilger has nothing of value to say about the subject, intellectually or otherwise, and should stick to writing about Vietnam. But I suppose he has to try and stay, what is the word, 'relevant'?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> No. Pilger has nothing of value to say about the subject, intellectually or otherwise, and should stick to writing about Vietnam. But I suppose he has to try and stay, what is the word, 'relevant'?


yeh. you say that. but why should i believe you, if even when prompted you can't muddle together an argument better than 'he has nothing of value to say'. demonstrate it. or stfu.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you say that. but why should i believe you, if even when prompted you can't muddle together an argument better than 'he has nothing of value to say'. demonstrate it. or stfu.



I'll ignore your rudeness Picky, and just smile at you.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I'll ignore your rudeness Picky, and just smile at you.


so you're full of fail. you can't even demonstrate a man 'with nothing of value to say' has nothing of value to say.

this may well be your finest urban hour.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> so you're full of fail. you can't even demonstrate a man 'with nothing of value to say' has nothing of value to say.
> 
> this may well be your finest urban hour.



You are full of anger. cynicism, and an inherent drive to attempt to prove your worth, intellectually and otherwise (by way of your attempted pedantry especially). It remains a constant feature of your posts on Urban 75. One has to wonder why?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> You are full of anger. cynicism, and an inherent drive to attempt to prove your worth, intellectually and otherwise (by way of your attempted pedantry especially). It remains a constant feature of your posts on Urban 75. One has to wonder why?


yeh. you're full of fail cos you can't put together even two sentences to show how pilger's a man with nothing of value to say. don't know why you bother posting here if you can't ever substantiate your claims.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you're full of fail cos you can't put together even two sentences to show how pilger's a man with nothing of value to say. don't know why you bother posting here if you can't ever substantiate your claims.



I thought of you as I posted in the 'What are you listening to now?' thread. Very apt I suspect.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I thought of you as I posted in the 'What are you listening to now?' thread. Very apt I suspect.


yeh. well, you think more of me than i of you.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. well, you think more of me than i of you.



That is because you rarely, and meaningfully, 'think'. Run along Prince, eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> That is because you rarely, and meaningfully, 'think'. Run along Prince, eh?


no, it's because i despise you, i think less of you.


----------



## bimble (May 31, 2017)

Can't you take it outside this thread your stupid macho argument about nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

bimble said:


> Can't you take it outside this thread your stupid macho argument about nothing.


yeh we should be like you. so when we lose our rag we should post things like this


bimble said:


> The demise of collective institutions like religious groups, yes that's where the problem lies.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

There is a certain consistency to Picky's temper tantrums, I 'll grant him that.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Thank you, I appreciate that.


yeh. you never did tell me what would happened if i ignored your well meant advice, you bottled it.


----------



## editor (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> There is a certain consistency to Picky's temper tantrums, I 'll grant him that.


No more of this please. From anyone or the warning tickle stick will be followed by the banhammer.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. you never did tell me what would happened if i ignored your well meant advice, you bottled it.



It is a shame that you have chosen to take this up, as I was being respectful and polite. Your assertion (in context) was open to question, and I decided that it would not be appropriate to pursue it. I had even thought of sending you a pm, especially given your apparent interest in reading and books, to allow you to explore the subject area and to allow you to explore the subject area concerned.

I was being polite, which you (sadly) failed to recognise. You claim to despise me, but let me state clearly that I do not despise you.


----------



## editor (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It is a shame that you have chosen to take this up, as I was being respectful and polite. Your assertion (in context) was open to question, and I decided that it would not be appropriate to pursue it. I had even thought of sending you a pm, especially given your apparent interest in reading and books, to allow you to explore the subject area and to allow you to explore the subject area concerned.
> 
> I was being polite, which you (sadly) failed to recognise. You claim to despise me, but let me state clearly that I do not despise you.


You were warned to stop and carried on. So you have duly been warned. Anyone else continuing this behaviour will also get warned.


----------



## Beats & Pieces (May 31, 2017)

editor said:


> You were warned to stop and carried on. So you have duly been warned. Anyone else continuing this behaviour will also get warned.



I was in the process of writing my last post as the warning was issued! I had NOT seen your warning prior to my last post.


----------



## editor (May 31, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> I was in the process of writing my last post as the warning was issued! I had NOT seen your warning prior to my last post.


On topic ONLY please.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 31, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> John Pilger
> http://www.counterpunch.org/2017/05/31/terror-in-britain-what-did-the-prime-minister-know/



I have to say, whatever you think of 21st century Pilger, the question about whether Manchester was to some degree blowback from Cameron/May (and Obama/Clinton) Libya policy doesn't seem  unreasonable given what we know at the present time.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 1, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> It's John Pilger. Mr Vietnam. What else needs to be said (without mentioning his writing for the 'New Statesman').



Quite a lot if the main topic here is UK intelligence and Libyan terrorists. Not sure what your point about the statesman is either. Perhaps you just think he's rubbish, if so it would be helpful to read some of your own articles for comparison, and so we might discern what you may actually be on about. Got any links?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jun 1, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> I have to say, whatever you think of 21st century Pilger, the question about whether Manchester was to some degree blowback from Cameron/May (and Obama/Clinton) Libya policy doesn't seem  unreasonable given what we know at the present time.




Exactly, and my gripe isn't even as much to do with what the answers could be but the fact that the vast majority of the press isnt even asking the questions at all.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Jun 1, 2017)

Sure. If they're going to spend that much time asking Corbyn about relations with paramilitary politicians in the distant past, you'd hope they could spend at least as much time asking Theresa May to produce the risk assessment she signed off on sending British Libyans off to fight with armed Islamist groups. 

I say 'risk assessment' because, given the overwhelming evidence of blow-back having occurred from previous support of armed Islamic groups who happened to be fighting the ruling class's political enemies-du-jour, I'd expect a competent organisation to have performed some sort of risk assessment on doing it again, and their boss to have signed off on that assessment before letting them do it again. So either, there is such a risk assessment, in which case I think the public ought to see it, or there isn't in which case Theresa May was negligent. 

Of course, that's in an imagined world of civic responsibility and basic competence, but we're actually in a bleak dystopia, somewhere on the spectrum between Orwell and Scarfolk, so we'll be hearing more about the IRA and Diane Abbot's hairstyle instead.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 1, 2017)

This got to me. ...


----------



## elbows (Jun 1, 2017)

Like a number of others, the guy they arrested in my hometown of Nuneaton has been released without charge. He ran away when they came to his house so they ended up tasering him a number of streets away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2017)

elbows said:


> Like a number of others, the guy they arrested in my hometown of Nuneaton has been released without charge. He ran away when they came to his house so they ended up tasering him a number of streets away.


Perhaps he had heard of the forest gate police shooting, 11 years ago tomorrow, and didn't fancy ending up dead or wounded at the hands of the police.


----------



## D'wards (Jun 1, 2017)

The mother of the eight year old who was killed, Saffie, has just come off life support and was told of the death of her daughter. What an absolute crying shame


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 2, 2017)

This is a good picture.


----------



## editor (Jun 2, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This is a good picture.
> 
> View attachment 108328


And this is an even better story:

Ava Rice, eight, from Lordswood donates refunded Ariana Grande ticket money to Manchester Arena attack families


----------



## SqueakyBumTime (Jun 3, 2017)

editor said:


> And this is an even better story:
> 
> Ava Rice, eight, from Lordswood donates refunded Ariana Grande ticket money to Manchester Arena attack families



Fuck me, the kid was obviously desperate to go the gig but had to pose for the mum + press. 

The mum is ecstatic she managed to buy a ticket for the accidentally hottest show in town.


----------



## SqueakyBumTime (Jun 3, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This is a good picture.
> 
> View attachment 108328


That's a great picture


----------



## Smoking kills (Jun 3, 2017)

SqueakyBumTime said:


> Fuck me, the kid was obviously desperate to go the gig but had to pose for the mum + press.
> 
> The mum is ecstatic she managed to buy a ticket for the accidentally hottest show in town.


Yes, fuck you, you sick fucking clown. 
A. Not same gig.
B. No-one is ecstatic except you (see above). "accidentally hottest show in town"
C. UNT


----------



## Yossarian (Jun 3, 2017)

SqueakyBumTime said:


> Fuck me, the kid was obviously desperate to go the gig but had to pose for the mum + press.
> 
> The mum is ecstatic she managed to buy a ticket for the accidentally hottest show in town.



What the hell is wrong with you?


----------



## ginger_syn (Jun 3, 2017)

SqueakyBumTime said:


> Fuck me, the kid was obviously desperate to go the gig but had to pose for the mum + press.
> 
> The mum is ecstatic she managed to buy a ticket for the accidentally hottest show in town.


You have a small and grubby mind,you didn't read the article properly did you.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 3, 2017)

SqueakyBumTime said:


> Fuck me, the kid was obviously desperate to go the gig but had to pose for the mum + press.
> 
> The mum is ecstatic she managed to buy a ticket for the accidentally hottest show in town.



Did you read the article?
No...
You didn't....
Fuckwit.


----------



## editor (Jun 3, 2017)

Note: That last warning has pushed SBT into a temp ban.


----------



## Ranbay (Jun 3, 2017)

editor said:


> Note: That last warning has pushed SBT into a temp ban.



only temp? guys a cunt knocker.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Watching the One Love Manchester concert. 
Unbelievable crowd...watching Coldplay ..

Positivity and courage on display by the people of Manchester. 

(((Manchester)))


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Watching the One Love Manchester concert.
> Unbelievable crowd...watching Coldplay ..
> 
> Positivity and courage on display by the people of Manchester.
> ...


It's been incredible.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

watching it, not my kind of music, ha, but Ariana Grande is actually a great performer! and the spirit is in there. its very moving.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> watching it, not my kind of music, ha, but Ariana Grande is actually a great performer! and the spirit is in there. its very moving.


The positivity is incredible...the young are amazing.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> The positivity is incredible...the young are amazing.



Yep they sure are. I heard an interview with Liam Gallagher yesterday and he wasnt asked to do it, but said he wanted to....OH MY GOD there he is!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> The positivity is incredible...the young are amazing.


Liam Gallagher on...
Have to say..I do like him a lot...


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

god that was so close to being fucking oasis


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Liam Gallagher on...
> Have to say..I do like him a lot...



I love Liam. Total legend. Im gutted not to have a ticket for his gig in Dublin in a few weeks...still looking


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

hmmm...starting to think this through...maybe liam is not the best person to put on


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> I love Liam. Total legend. Im gutted not to have a ticket for his gig in Dublin in a few weeks...still looking



He can make playing maraccas look sexy....lol


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> hmmm...starting to think this through...maybe liam is not the best person to put on



Why?


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

he's already said 'fuck off'


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> he's already said 'fuck off'



Did he?
Missed it....


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Live Forever.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 4, 2017)

He's playing new material


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

Coldplay backing him up.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

actually cried watching that.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> actually cried watching that.


Me too...


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

fuckin hell


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

I want more!


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

...and now back to the realm of no idea lol


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

DexterTCN said:


> I want more!



I feel so sad watching this, thinking of those sweet teenyboppers on the train in Dublin the weekend before her Manc concert, going to her gig at our 3Arena. Their excitement was infectious. Thats why I started chatting to them! She is really not a bad performer at all, putting everything she has got into it too.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

Almost afraid to say I actually watched iCarly...but only coz my grand-daughter always watched it.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

This is what music and young people are all about...
People coming together..to enjoy music and life...
It's all about love ... not hate...not bombs and not terrorism...


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

OMG somewhere over the rainbow '


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

Fun fact: that was Prince's favourite song of all time, and its one of mine too.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Oh shit  ... now I'm bawling...
Over the rainbow gets me every time...but this is just very very sad....


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jun 4, 2017)

Sat watching it with my 84 year old grandad. He said this is his favourite song of all time.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Jun 4, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Oh shit  ... now I'm bawling...
> Over the rainbow gets me every time...but this is just very very sad....



me too ' x


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

damn


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> me too ' x


(((Cheesypoof)))


----------



## The Octagon (Jun 4, 2017)

Don't know the ins and outs obvs, but I feel that's a big miss from Noel, that could have been iconic.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 4, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Don't know the ins and outs obvs, but I feel that's a big miss from Noel, that could have been iconic.



Yeah...i kind of hoped to see him there....


----------



## DexterTCN (Jun 4, 2017)

Yeah...my breath was held for a bit there....but coldplay rocked it with him, especially the guitarist.


----------



## binka (Jun 4, 2017)

Just got back to my gfs flat after the concert. Brilliant show. Ariana Grande is amazing


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 4, 2017)

That was great, I thought. The end when Ariana sang "Somewhere over the rainbow", well that was just bloody lovely, and my face was wet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> Oh shit  ... now I'm bawling...
> Over the rainbow gets me every time...but this is just very very sad....


Always makes me think of the abominable dr phibes


----------



## cantsin (Jun 4, 2017)

was actually hard to be cynical about all that, despite Coldplay.

Ariana Grande has also accidentally transformed her UK profile,forever - fairplay all round.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 4, 2017)

Load of music I can't stand, but good on Ariana Grande for doing this. Good response. Well done.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 5, 2017)

The Octagon said:


> Don't know the ins and outs obvs, but I feel that's a big miss from Noel, that could have been iconic.



Peace and love...


----------



## RD2003 (Jun 5, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Peace and love...



It's all about Liam. The arsehole.


----------



## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 5, 2017)

Edited to show the lead up.
One tweet out of context doesn't a morning chorus make...


----------



## Glitter (Jun 5, 2017)

Ariana Grande is incredible. Pulling that together so quickly was amazing in itself but when you consider the personal trauma she must have been feeling...wow!

You know who else impressed me last night? Miley. Ariana (understandably) at times was struggling to hold it together and the emotion obviously got to her when she was speaking. Miley was articulate and smart and the pair of them performed well together. 

They should be very proud of themselves. Excellent role models for young people, especially young women. 

I'm so proud of Manchester and the response to this tragedy. I was in Victoria station on Saturday and was very moved by the tributes. I'm so pleased our city pulled together in such a way, it was so lovely to see all the children in the crowd smiling and dancing.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 5, 2017)

Don't know if anyone remembers this case. I wonder if the bomber had anything to do with these guys. 

Former Manchester United steward jailed for life for imam murder


----------



## editor (Jun 5, 2017)

I'm unlikely to ever listen to her again but this was a wonderful response. She'll be scarred for life after what happened at the original show - as will everyone who was there and the friends and relatives of those affected - but this kind of stuff shows the power of love and music over hate filled shitbag losers.


----------



## Wookey (Jun 5, 2017)

I went to see the flowers today.. 

Three feet deep.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 5, 2017)

editor said:


> I'm unlikely to ever listen to her again but this was a wonderful response. She'll be scarred for life after what happened at the original show - as will everyone who was there and the friends and relatives of those affected - but this kind of stuff shows the power of love and music over hate filled shitbag losers.




Being an oldie, I was unaware that there's a whole genre of "girl power" music.  I got a listen to some of it on a news podcast and was quite impressed.  There was nothing out there telling girls that they could be powerful and in charge when I was a teen.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 5, 2017)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Being an oldie, I was unaware that there's a whole genre of "girl power" music.  I got a listen to some of it on a news podcast and was quite impressed.  There was nothing out there telling girls that they could be powerful and in charge when I was a teen.



There was a bit early on when Grande was talking about meeting the mother of one of the dead girls, where the mum said "Olivia would want you to play the hits", so the proposed set list got revised late on. So the next song was _Side to Side _which, and I'm not sure quite how to put this, is about being somewhat saddle-sore. There's a great giggled acknowledgement about that in the intro here.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> There was a bit early on when Grande was talking about meeting the mother of one of the dead girls, where the mum said "Olivia would want you to play the hits", so the proposed set list got revised late on. So the next song was _Side to Side _which, and I'm not sure quite how to put this, is about being somewhat saddle-sore. There's a great giggled acknowledgement about that in the intro here.



Think that Mum saved the day.  Got the impression over the last two weeks in LA an idea got formulated of some sort of world changing Peace-Aid type event, (there were still elements) but the change of tack towards as Robbie Williams put it, getting together and singing the songs we knew was for the better.  That admission was straight after the girl from the choir had broken down, where I think Grande realised the mum was right, and think Cyrus helped her  get into that groove.  Lucky, I think, if they'd stuck to plan would have been over shamltzy, unachievable wallowing rather than the ENSA sytle thing with added polish they ended with.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jun 6, 2017)

gosub said:


> Lucky, I think, if they'd stuck to plan would have been over shamltzy, unachievable wallowing rather than the ENSA sytle thing with added polish they ended with.



Yeah, tricky thing to to judge. I think they nailed it just right, to be honest.


----------



## gosub (Jun 6, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Yeah, tricky thing to to judge. I think they nailed it just right, to be honest.



Agree. (coz they,by her admission, changed it)


----------



## killer b (Jun 6, 2017)

Wookey said:


> I went to see the flowers today..
> 
> Three feet deep.
> 
> View attachment 108536


I went last week - it had a very powerful effect.


----------



## Wookey (Jun 6, 2017)

killer b said:


> I went last week - it had a very powerful effect.



Yes it does. There's a kind of hush that isn't a hush, and the perfume of flowers everywhere. It's oppressive and sad, in many ways, but I noticed the hi-vizzed volunteers arranging the floral tributes, and they were handling the flowers with such respect and care it made me feel glad of good people. And reading the cards what struck me were the dedications from people in other countries; the impact of this has gone far and wide, it's weird to remember that when you're living here in the middle of it all.


----------



## bmd (Jun 6, 2017)

Yes, it is weird to think of how much support is coming from outside the UK. I got a better sense of that with the One Love thing. I didn't like any of it from a musical perspective but loved it otherwise.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Jun 8, 2017)

Wookey said:


> Yes it does. There's a kind of hush that isn't a hush, and the perfume of flowers everywhere. It's oppressive and sad, in many ways, but I noticed the hi-vizzed volunteers arranging the floral tributes, and they were handling the flowers with such respect and care it made me feel glad of good people. And reading the cards what struck me were the dedications from people in other countries; the impact of this has gone far and wide, it's weird to remember that when you're living here in the middle of it all.


The hush thing was the key thing for me - a reflective and sombre feeling, with people just looking at the sea of flowers and thinking their own private thoughts. Very moving. 

I went back last weekend and there was a bagpipe band playing in full kilt and bearskin garb who were great.


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 17, 2017)

A sobering read 
The making of a monster: How Salman Abedi became a mass murderer


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2018)

Bumped because the official report in to the response to the bombing has been released.  Not pleasant reading for the fire brigade's higher-ups, nor Vodafone, but perhaps most for whoever in the Government went on the record claiming that there was no need for Leveson 2 because the media had learned their lesson:



> As well as representatives from the emergency services, the council and the Arena, 200 members of the public affected by the attack on 22 May were interviewed by Kerslake’s team, including family and friends of 11 of the 22 people who died.
> 
> Many complained about being “hounded” and “bombarded” by the media. Some said photographers took “sneaky” pictures through a window when they were being told their loved ones had died.
> 
> ...


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 27, 2018)

agricola said:


> Bumped because the official report in to the response to the bombing has been released.  Not pleasant reading for the fire brigade's higher-ups, nor Vodafone, but perhaps most for whoever in the Government went on the record claiming that there was no need for Leveson 2 because the media had learned their lesson:



The press, by and large are utter scum. They always have been, and unless you close all news outlets, always will be.

Every time an 'utter cunts' survey is done, the press are there, along with solicitors, estate agents, used car salesmen etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 27, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> The press, by and large are utter scum. They always have been, and unless you close all news outlets, always will be.
> 
> Every time an 'utter cunts' survey is done, the press are there, along with solicitors, estate agents, used car salesmen etc.


...the cabinet...


----------



## agricola (Mar 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ...the cabinet...



Indeed - when trying to bribe nurses there was no biscuits, no money and no tin.  The note just said "give us a day off".


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 27, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> ...the cabinet...



The list wasn't exhaustive... get back to work.


----------



## binka (Mar 27, 2018)

agricola said:


> Bumped because the official report in to the response to the bombing has been released.  Not pleasant reading for the fire brigade's higher-ups


Just had a big report about this on Northwest Tonight. The head of the fire service was in a car and apparently couldn't get through to the police command to get updates which is why he ordered the fire crews to stay out and instead stage at a fire station 3 miles east of the arena. Fire HQ is to the west of Manchester and the Police HQ to the east and no one from the fire service was at, or sent to, police HQ. 

Two weeks before the arena attack there was a terror attack exercise at the Trafford Centre where lack of communication between the emergency services was shown to be a serious problem.

I find it really surprising that apparently it wasn't possible for the head of the fire service to get updated information for two hours after a terror attack. Apparently now they have a shared radio channel so it doesn't happen again


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## miss direct (Mar 27, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> The press, by and large are utter scum. They always have been, and unless you close all news outlets, always will be.
> 
> Every time an 'utter cunts' survey is done, the press are there, along with solicitors, estate agents, used car salesmen etc.



My first job was as a trainee reporter. This sort of stuff is one of the reasons I left. There is real pressure to do the dreaded "death knock"


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 27, 2018)

miss direct said:


> My first job was as a trainee reporter. This sort of stuff is one of the reasons I left. There is real pressure to do the dreaded "death knock"



Yep, bad news sells more papers than good does.

My daughters ex-partner was a cartoonist, and knew a lot of journalists. He didn't have much of a good word for any of them.


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## A380 (Mar 27, 2018)

Chief Fire Officer retired...

Greater Manchester’s fire chief to stand down

It’s not as if police / fire / ambulance haven’t been planning, training and exercising together and  have got it right at other big live jobs and exercises before and since.

JESIP - Working together, Saving Lives


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## cupid_stunt (Mar 28, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> The press, by and large are utter scum. They always have been, and unless you close all news outlets, always will be.



That's a sweeping statement, I spent years in the local newspaper sector, and I wouldn't describe any of the reporters, at the various companies I worked for, as scum, far from it. 

The problem tends to be with the nationals, and perhaps some larger regional dailies, but in this case both the Manchester Evening News & other local papers were praised.



> A report on the aftermath of the Manchester Arena bombing has highlighted the “sympathetic reporting” of local and regional newspapers while criticising other media for press intrusion.
> ---
> In its report, published today, the panel says it was “shocked and dismayed” by the level of press intrusion in some cases, and calls for the Independent Press Standards Organisation to review its code of conduct on the reporting of such incidents.
> 
> But the report, written by former head of the civil service Lord Kerslake, also singled out the Manchester Evening News and other local newspapers for their “sympathetic” coverage of the incident.





> One family member affected by the tragedy said:  “The information in the Manchester Evening News was correct but when national Press picked it up, it would change.” Another described their local press as “amazing”.
> 
> The report stated: “A number of families spoke in praise of sympathetic reporting by the Manchester Evening News and other papers local to the bereaved.”
> 
> ...



Kerslake report praises MEN while slating other media - Journalism News from HoldtheFrontPage


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 28, 2018)

cupid_stunt said:


> That's a sweeping statement, I spent years in the local newspaper sector, and I wouldn't describe any of the reporters, at the various companies I worked for, as scum, far from it.
> 
> The problem tends to be with the nationals, and perhaps some larger regional dailies, but in this case both the Manchester Evening News & other local papers were praised.
> 
> ...


Fair enough, in this instance, I was a tad harsh.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 28, 2018)

A380 said:


> Chief Fire Officer retired...



Keeping that £100K/PA pension away from any potential disciplinary measures...


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## RainbowTown (Mar 28, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Keeping that £100K/PA pension away from any potential disciplinary measures...



No doubt suffering from 'stress' also.


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## RainbowTown (Mar 28, 2018)

Sadly and inevitably, certain elements of the press come into their own on occasions like this, like vultures circling the bloodied scene below,  just ready to swoop and devour on the rich pickings that - in their eyes, at least - is there for the taking. Decency and dignity for the victims doesn't even stand a chance as they feed upon them.


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## agricola (Mar 28, 2018)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Keeping that £100K/PA pension away from any potential disciplinary measures...



I doubt there would have been any (he did after all follow the guidance he was given, though perhaps physically sending someone to GMP HQ might have avoided an awful lot of the delay) but when someone wants to be seen as one of those _driving-through-change / modernizing_ "leaders" that so many of us are afflicted with nowadays it is probably impossible to continue after something like this.



RainbowTown said:


> No doubt suffering from 'stress' also.



I appreciate this is a common viewpoint nowadays, but until someone goes through something like this then its very difficult to comment on how stressful it can be even some distance from the event.  I have no idea what his experience was like, but there will have been a lot of people in the emergency services who will have been messed up by this; not just the people who went to the scene and treated the injured but the staff who had to to take calls from the witnesses, the injured and the bereaved, and the people who had to co-ordinate a safe response when not fully knowing what was going on.  

The amount of responsibility that these events place on what are (in organizational terms) quite junior members of staff (and in some cases individuals like the GMP force duty Inspector) is astonishing.


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## RainbowTown (Mar 28, 2018)

agricola said:


> I doubt there would have been any (he did after all follow the guidance he was given, though perhaps physically sending someone to GMP HQ might have avoided an awful lot of the delay) but when someone wants to be seen as one of those _driving-through-change / modernizing_ "leaders" that so many of us are afflicted with nowadays it is probably impossible to continue after something like this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like most people, I have absolute and total respect and admiration for all those _who attended_ the scene that night and helped and assisted the dying, the injured and those immediately affected by this atrocity. They deserve any support they may've needed in terms of counselling for any stress related issues that may have resulted from it.

However, I don't have much sympathy, to be honest, for the Chief Fire Officer though - who's now suddenly decided to 'retire' on a very large pension, straight after this report has published and whichhighlighted the failings which - in part - happened on his watch.


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## binka (Mar 28, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Like most people, I have absolute and total respect and admiration for all those _who attended_ the scene that night and helped and assisted the dying, the injured and those immediately affected by this atrocity. They deserve any support they may've needed in terms of counselling for any stress related issues that may have resulted from it.
> 
> However, I don't have much sympathy, to be honest, for the Chief Fire Officer though - who's now suddenly decided to 'retire' on a very large pension, straight after this report has published and whichhighlighted the failings which - in part - happened on his watch.


Small point but he went in September. Obviously he knew what was coming though


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## RainbowTown (Mar 28, 2018)

binka said:


> Small point but he went in September. Obviously he knew what was coming though



Yes, of course, Binka, that's right. I should've worded that part more appropriately as to how it related to the published report yesterday.


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 28, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Like most people, I have absolute and total respect and admiration for all those _who attended_ the scene that night and helped and assisted the dying, the injured and those immediately affected by this atrocity. They deserve any support they may've needed in terms of counselling for any stress related issues that may have resulted from it.
> 
> However, I don't have much sympathy, to be honest, for the Chief Fire Officer though - who's now suddenly decided to 'retire' on a very large pension, straight after this report has published and whichhighlighted the failings which - in part - happened on his watch.



There was a time, within my lifetime, when people who had fucked up fell on their sword. Not now.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 28, 2018)

Sasaferrato said:


> There was a time, within my lifetime, when people who had fucked up fell on their sword. Not now.


yeh. no one has a sword any more


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## agricola (Mar 28, 2018)

RainbowTown said:


> Like most people, I have absolute and total respect and admiration for all those _who attended_ the scene that night and helped and assisted the dying, the injured and those immediately affected by this atrocity. They deserve any support they may've needed in terms of counselling for any stress related issues that may have resulted from it.
> 
> However, I don't have much sympathy, to be honest, for the Chief Fire Officer though - who's now suddenly decided to 'retire' on a very large pension, straight after this report has published and whichhighlighted the failings which - in part - happened on his watch.



I wasn't asking for sympathy for him, I was trying to point out that its very difficult to appreciate the stress caused by this sort of thing unless you have gone through something similar and that it goes far further than just the people who attend the scene.


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## A380 (Mar 28, 2018)

binka said:


> Small point but he went in September. Obviously he knew what was coming though


He knew on the night. It was the closest to a mutiny a fire service has been in modern times.

Fortunately it’s fairly likely, predominantly due to the work of North West Amulance Service (NWAS) staff and quick robust decision making by the police and ambulance commanders at all three levels, that the lack of firefighters didn’t cost lives. They would have provided some additional capacity and capability but GMP turned the whole scene warm really quickly and NWAS covered all the casualties. NWAS could do that because of the mutual aid that came in from other trusts to keep business as usual and a reserve across the city. I just say this in case family and friends are reading.

It’s why you have drills and use them.


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## A380 (Mar 28, 2018)

It’s also not a cultural failure across the fire service. Some of the decisions made at Grenfell, right from Dany Cotton down,  were pretty gutsy ( there is public facing stuff on this) but we need to wait for that part of the Grenfell review.


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## likesfish (Mar 28, 2018)

there's not doing a 9/11 where most of the firefighters died for no good reason but within half an hour it was obvious the police and ambulance had gone in and not been killed so the fire service headshed fucked  up.


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## kebabking (Mar 28, 2018)

The big, huge, unforgivable mistake GMFR made was in not making a new plan when it became obvious that Plan A wasn't working - shit goes wrong all the time and plans turn to shit, that's the reality of dealing with any fluid situation, but we pay senior people to make decisions and to try and cope when what we thought would work doesn't.

I simply don't understand how a senior Fire Officer could be happy with not being in contact with his opposite numbers while an event of this nature is obviously ongoing - sitting around and doing force generation for 10 minutes having got a 'wait, out' is one thing, but two fucking hours? Absolutely astonishing.

The original plan was solid - when you have an active shooter scenario, which is what was originally thought, the last thing you want is fire, ambulance and plod steaming in from every direction adding to the confusion and worse, ending up getting shot and thereby reducing your ability to respond, but the Comms plan didn't work, and GMFR had no lost-Comms procedure, and worse, didn't seem to think they needed one.

Frightening.


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## A380 (Mar 28, 2018)

A380
[QUOTE="kebabking said:


> The big, huge, unforgivable mistake GMFR made was in not making a new plan when it became obvious that Plan A wasn't working - shit goes wrong all the time and plans turn to shit, that's the reality of dealing with any fluid situation, but we pay senior people to make decisions and to try and cope when what we thought would work doesn't.
> 
> I simply don't understand how a senior Fire Officer could be happy with not being in contact with his opposite numbers while an event of this nature is obviously ongoing - sitting around and doing force generation for 10 minutes having got a 'wait, out' is one thing, but two fucking hours? Absolutely astonishing.
> 
> ...




Yes, it should be a cyclical proces against the six elements of the Joint Decision Model (a bit similar to the Seven Questions) . Fairly early on GMP and NWAS commander’s changed their assessment to’probably not an active shooter’. (But they didn’t know for sure which shows the qualities of the NWAS staff, most of whom didn’t have the full ballistic protection that police firearms and ambulance HART have. And also a lot of bobbies with just their normal vests and nothing more.)

But you have to keep spinning the model. Constantly.

Also co-location of commanders at each level is absolutely key and also should be bread and butter. Fire service even invented and use a specific command role to assist with exactly this kind of incident. National Incident Liaison Officers (NILOs).

And everyone always jokes about comms but Airwave, though knocking on a bit, is still pretty good for voice comms. It’s the main comms system for police and ambulance. Fire commanders as individuals and all pumps have it, and there are dedicated multi agency command talkgroups exactly for this kind of event. And I wouldn’t be surprised if lots of GMFRS people were in fact on those talkgroups on the night. ( Fire use airwave for dispatch and distance and separate fire ground radios for Local command).

All this stuff is there and used daily. And was used by GMP/NWAS and other interesting/interested parties on the night.

But if the commander at the top doesn’t follow doctrine then it all falls to pieces.


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## likesfish (Mar 29, 2018)

You really need firefighters too follow orders and trust their leadership peoples whose job is to run into burning buildings have to trust their leadership if they stay wait it’s too dangerous.


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## RainbowTown (Nov 3, 2022)

Just devastating and grim. No other words can really describe this. RIP to those that died and those who were failed.










						Manchester Arena bomb victim was failed at every stage, family says
					

Emergency chiefs say they are "truly sorry" for failings that prevented John Atkinson's survival.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						Two victims of Manchester bombing COULD have been saved, report finds
					

Families bereaved by the Manchester Arena bombing blasted emergency services after a report found two of those who died could of survived with better treatment




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				












						LIVE: Manchester Arena bombing emergency services report
					

The second volume of the inquiry report will be published today, detailing the response of police, ambulance crews and firefighters




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


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## Sasaferrato (Nov 3, 2022)

RainbowTown said:


> Just devastating and grim. No other words can really describe this. RIP to those that died and those who were failed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Chief Constable was on the news earlier. We made mistakes, unacceptable, lessons learned blah blah. Not however 'I have tendered my resignation'.


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## kebabking (Nov 3, 2022)

Sasaferrato said:


> The Chief Constable was on the news earlier. We made mistakes, unacceptable, lessons learned blah blah. Not however 'I have tendered my resignation'.



He wasn't the Chief Constable at the time, and he hadn't been in GMP before he became CC.

Andy Burnham was Mayor of GM, but had only been in post a couple of months - arguable what effective impact he could have had, but they had staged an ex in the months before the attack that had marked inter-agency communications as abysmal.


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## sim667 (Nov 3, 2022)

I did a multi agency exercise at work the other day, with the focus being communication. I can confirm, communication is still ropey


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