# Conspiraloon 9/11- 7/7 Truther  outed as Holocaust denier



## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Remember the sad tale of the fruitbat conspiraloon who turned up to a book launch of a 7/7 book authored by  peace activist Milan Rai, heckled the speakers, supported by his pals, and demanded a platform to take to the floor and deliver a rant about ''synthetic terror''' and the bombers being ''innocent'' - in front of people who had their legs blown off by said bombers?   And in front of the train driver who had stood amongst the carnage and tried to make tourniquets with his uniform to stop people bleeding to death? 

His name, it turns out is Nick/Nicholas Kollerstrom, PHD, and he is a campaigning mainstay of the ''9/11 and 7/7 Inside Job'' Brigade, growing ever more determined and vociferous as the years go by 


Now regarding his bonkers views on 7/7 and 9/11 - there is little point bothering to challenge him or people like him, as I have discovered over the last 2 years of getting demented aggro from the 'truth movement'.

But his continuing attempts to contact and pester survivors and families is something that I _do_ have a problem with ( he turned up to the 7/7 conspiracy trial at Kingston yesterday and badgered a man from Aldgate who couldn't get away from him, all the time while he was trying to eat his lunch in the canteen. 

So imagine my surprise when he turns out to not just be a fruitbat, but a full-on shameless holocaust-denier and Nazi apologist. 

And people wonder why I have a problem with conspiraloons?

It's interesting what you find when you scratch under the surface of what seem to be superficially wacky beliefs, isn't it?

You can familiarise yourself with Nick Kollerstrom's views on this broken link

http://  codoh.com/newrevoices/nrillusion.html
and
http://  codoh.com/newrevoices/nrnktrip.html

and here

http:// www. davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15930

He's cited as a source in this indescribably vile website

http:// www. nazigassings.com/


And here he is on his fave website, posting as ''astro3'', busily sharing his theories about 7/7 and 9/11 being ''synthetic terrorism'', ''false flag operations'' and the 7/7 bombers being innocent.

http:// www.  nineeleven.co.uk/board/search.php?search_author=astro3

http://www. nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewforum.php?f=9

He's not the only holocaust-denying conspiraloon on that board - so next time you see them marching with their ''9/11 =Inside Job'' or ''7/7= inside job'' banners, you might want to ask if they care about the company they keep when they campaign for what they call ''Truth''.  


http://www.  nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=13462&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=holocaust


Because, hey, countering extremism and speaking out against hate-preaching and lies isn't just something that 'the Muslim community' should be urged  to do, is it? I wonder what  UCL, where he is a research fellow think?

PWNing him seems rather overdue


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## pk (Apr 15, 2008)

I'm not in the least bit surprised he's been outed as an anti-semitic "it was the Jews what done it" ignorant wanker, most of them are.

But I'd like a photo of him to assist the pwnage and begin the Photochop assault on his character.



Is this him?


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## selamlar (Apr 15, 2008)

What a pleasant charactor.  UCL def. need to rethink this one.


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## glenquagmire (Apr 15, 2008)

Has taffboy killed himself with embarrassment and regret yet?

If not, why not?


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## pk (Apr 15, 2008)

Wow, a quick search has revealed even more conspiraloon bollocks.

This has it all - Lady Diana, astral charts, and tinfoil hat level madness on a Joe Vialls scale of wibbling.

http://www.skyscript.co.uk/diana2.html

Fuck me, the guy is bonkers. Let the Photochop pwnage begin!


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

there does seem to be a worryingly high amount of crossover between the 911/77 conspiraloons and the equally barking mad Holocaust denial crew.

Both should be equally shunned in my opinion.


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## dylanredefined (Apr 15, 2008)

Wonder if he denies the holocaust because he is a nazi or is it because its what "they "want you to beleive so i must be a lie ?
   Either way needs to be avoided.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

pk said:


> I'm not in the least bit surprised he's been outed as an anti-semitic "it was the Jews what done it" ignorant wanker, most of them are.
> 
> But I'd like a photo of him to assist the pwnage and begin the Photochop assault on his character.
> 
> ...



Yes - he looks more like this now though - that's an old photo. He's gone grey


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Research fellow?

On...Neptune!  But of course.



UCL have a strict policy on discrimination and racism - quite right too.

And they  aren't keen on harassment either


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## quarsan (Apr 15, 2008)

We at Blairwatch have had a few run ins with the conspiraloons and, as far as I can recall, every time we've dug into one of them we've always found that they are holocaust deniers.

Any info on this creep would be appreciated.

Cheers


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 15, 2008)

Bringing a university such as UCL into disrepute isn't a wise career move I shouldn't think...


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Yes - he looks more like this now though - that's an old photo. He's gone grey


Looks like the same shirt though!


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

I posted about this bloke on here about 4 or 5 years ago, after _guess who_ was bigging him up.... He's also an alchemist who believes he's discovered purple gold.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Bringing a university such as UCL into disrepute isn't a wise career move I shouldn't think...



Indeed. I note in passing...

HR for science and tech
Lisa Drysdale
Senior HR Administrator
Tel : (020) 7679 1929
Internal : 41929
Room : 9th Floor, 1-19 Torrington Place
Email : l.drysdale AT ucl.ac.uk


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## selamlar (Apr 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I posted about this bloke on here about 4 or 5 years ago, after guess who was bigging him up.... He's also an alchemist who believes he's discovered purple gold.



Really?  Thats proper loonery then! 

(got a link?  am mildly intreged by that one!)


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I posted about this bloke on here about 4 or 5 years ago, after _guess who_ was bigging him up.... He's also an alchemist who believes he's discovered purple gold.




This is somehow not surprising to me.


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

purple_gold


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## jæd (Apr 15, 2008)

You can get "Purple Gold" quite easily. There was a fad for it in Singapore a couple of years ago. Tacky as hell, though...


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Oh, noes


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh, noes



Jazzz now officially fucked.

So this bloke that Jazz went with to talk to the anti-semetic Dr. Mohammed Naseem turns out to be a holocaust denier and anti-semite. 

Check this thread for the embarassing background.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Do research fellows teach students?

 Because if so,  that would be bad news, IMO and pwnage would be a most necessary public duty.


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## selamlar (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh, noes



And THAT doesn't surprise me.  

Disappointed about the purple gold, though.


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## baldrick (Apr 15, 2008)

lol


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## quarsan (Apr 15, 2008)

Let's just have some clarity here. He is not a revisionist but a denier:


> As surprising as it may sound, the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans.  From April, 1945 five million Germans were rounded up after surrendering, and deliberately starved until well over one million had died - Source: http:// codohDOTcom/newrevoices/nrillusion.html



And what was Austchwitz like? Death camp? Extermination centre? Nope. It was like Butlins.


> Let us hope the schoolchildren visitors are properly taught about the elegant swimming-pool at Auschwitz, built by the inmates, who would sunbathe there on Saturday and Sunday afternoons while watching the water-polo matches; and shown the paintings from its art class, which still exist; and told about the camp library which had some forty-five thousand volumes for inmates to choose from, plus a range of periodicals; and the six camp orchestras at Auschwitz/Birkenau, its the theatrical performances, including a children’s opera, the weekly camp cinema, and even the special brothel established there. Let’s hope they are shown postcards written from Auschwitz, some of which still exist, where the postman would collect the mail twice-weekly. - Source http:// codohDOTcom/newrevoices/nrnktrip.html


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Fuck this  UCL need to know


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

quarsan said:


> Let's just have some clarity here. He is not a revisionist but a denier:
> 
> 
> And what was Austchwitz like? Death camp? Extermination centre? Nope. It was like Butlins.



Just read this.   What a total and utter scumbag.


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fuck this  UCL need to know



Oh yes.  Pwnage required.  I wonder how his Jewish and Gay students feel being taught by such a shithead.


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## glenquagmire (Apr 15, 2008)

Just out of interest, do any fellow union reps have experience of defending someone who was, say, being sacked for something like this loony?

I'm trying to imagine how I would go about it.


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## selamlar (Apr 15, 2008)

I think that (in most cases like this) the union refuses to defend the offending person.  Not sure why I think that, but I seem to remember that being the case.  Could be wrong.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

So we have crop circles, 
Diana
the role of Neptune and astrology matters
purple gold

all harmless enough foaming fruitbattery, then we have 

9/11 truth
7/7 bombers guilt denial
obsessions about Israelis
Holocaust denial

and he is lecturing at UCL and getting a grant to do so?
Do research fellows give lectures and supervise students?


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## glenquagmire (Apr 15, 2008)

I know unions have been sued by members (or ex-members) for not representing them adequately.

If they're in breach of rule that's another thing, but I can't find anything in the GMB rule book against being a COMPLETE AND UTTER FUCKING LUNATIC. Seems to be about the only thing you can't be victimised for.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Do research fellows give lectures and supervise students?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Research_fellow


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

I know some people here have been researching far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement, they might be interested to hear that this scumbag gave a lecture at the Big Green Gathering last year. 

edit: further to this, it appears that he's also a mate of Tony Gosling former Green Party local candidate and man with a finger in every conspiracy pie going, owner of the bildeberg site(s)...


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## selamlar (Apr 15, 2008)

glenquagmire said:


> If they're in breach of rule that's another thing



Racist/anti-semite?

TBH, its been too long since I did this kind of shit.  I don't think (again! hah!) that unions have been sued _successfully_ for this, have they?  Didn't the NUT have a run in with some BNP member in Solihull or somewhere a bit back?


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## pk (Apr 15, 2008)




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## RedRumsBum (Apr 15, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> there does seem to be a worryingly high amount of crossover between the 911/77 conspiraloons and the equally barking mad Holocaust denial crew.
> 
> Both should be equally shunned in my opinion.



That's because there is a brand of person who just can't help themselves when it comes to conspiracy theories, it's like a sexual perversion or a fetish, they just can't get enough of it. 

I wouldn't say this bloke is evil, but he's incredibly dangerous and a couple of slices short of a loaf. His motivation isn't anything to do with hating Jews, it's about him not being able to resist a good old conspiracy theory, it's beyond the poor fucker. 

Unless of course he believes only 2 theories.....9/11 done  by the Jews and there was no holocaust.....if he's got nothing else to say, then yep, he's won my contempt.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

He's got a big thread on the Twoofer forums about an Israeli firm being behind 7/7, quelle surprise.

Nice photoshop pk


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## trashpony (Apr 15, 2008)

What a vile loonspud. Holocaust deniers make my flesh crawl

Why do people believe conspiracy theories over and above the evidence? Or is that a question for a huge thread of its own?


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

> The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion
> by Nicholas Kollerstrom, *PhD*
> 
> As surprising as it may sound, the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans. From April, 1945 five million Germans were rounded up after surrendering, and deliberately starved until well over one million had died, in French and American-run concentration camps[1] - an event soon erased from the history books. There was, in contrast, never a centrally-coordinated Nazi program of exterminating Jews in Germany. Lethal gas chambers did not function in German labour-camps, that's just an illusion. The traditional Holocaust story has developed out of rumours, misunderstandings, and wartime propaganda. From stories pre-dating the Second World War to the Nuremberg Trials which gave official sanction to the notion, to subsequent trials, books and films, we have had it imprinted on our collective psyche. In most of Europe now, it is a thoughtcrime to believe what you have just read, punishable by imprisonment, so think carefully before deciding to read on.
> ...



He is *tarting his PHD* about in the context of writing this disgusting shite 

www.  davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15930


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

Yet he's quite prepared to call the Foot-and-Mouth cull of 2001  'a holocuast.


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## Spion (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Do research fellows give lectures and supervise students?


Not necessarily. Some do, some don't.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

I hope in this case he doesn't.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 15, 2008)

So, is the piano playing one gonna have anything to say about this?   





> Pwnage required



Too fucking right, hang the cunt out to dry as far as I'm concerned.


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

He also gave a talk at the London Anarchist Forum a few years back. Silly fuckers.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> there does seem to be a worryingly high amount of crossover between the 911/77 conspiraloons and the equally barking mad Holocaust denial crew.
> 
> Both should be equally shunned in my opinion.



I suspect that the "crossover" is an artefact of having a worldview where every event has a hidden meaning, where nothing is actually what it is, but merely a cypher for a different message. Once your perspective is based on that, it's so easy to see *everything* as the product of one conspiracy or another, and to draw strength from the fact that you're one of "the elect" who know the truth. It's self-perpetuating. It's amazing how many truthers and holocaust -deniers also go in for the "Area 51" myth-scape too.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that the "crossover" is an artefact of having a worldview where every event has a hidden meaning, where nothing is actually what it is, but merely a cypher for a different message. Once your perspective is based on that, it's so easy to see *everything* as the product of one conspiracy or another, and to draw strength from the fact that you're one of "the elect" who know the truth. It's self-perpetuating. It's amazing how many truthers and holocaust -deniers also go in for the "Area 51" myth-scape too.



I worked with a C4 documentary team on this on a programme called 'Conspiracy - who really runs the world' which went out as schools programming sometime last year.

 The most interesting but was when these two academics did some research into the mindset of conspiracy theorists. They asked a group of students some questions about trust levels, re. family, friends, support networks, colleagues, etc  then on the basis of their answers, sorted them into two groups - one of which they thought would be much more likely to ''believe''. 

Then they asked the two groups if they thought it was likely that the Govt could track you all the time via your phone and were doing so ( or something like that - they made up the theory anyway as a test).

As predicted, the ones with low levels of trust went for the theory.


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that the "crossover" is an artefact of having a worldview where every event has a hidden meaning, where nothing is actually what it is, but merely a cypher for a different message. Once your perspective is based on that, it's so easy to see *everything* as the product of one conspiracy or another, and to draw strength from the fact that you're one of "the elect" who know the truth. It's self-perpetuating. It's amazing how many truthers and holocaust -deniers also go in for the "Area 51" myth-scape too.



I agree with this.  Its more a commonality of lunacy.  If you are prepared to belive one screwball conspiracy theory then you are more likely to believe other screwball theories.


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2008)

This guy sounds odious and a nazi lover, (though he is partially right about Germans POW's being killed em masse: just after the war tens of thousands died primarily from neglect, disease and and hunger(read Other Losses) but I am not sure I like the idea of him being grassed up to his employers, this is typical Trot behaviour and it is unbecoming to you BK, i though more of you. it works both ways, one day it may be left wing or liberal views that people are grassed up for.


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## Spion (Apr 15, 2008)

treelover said:


> this is *typical Trot behaviour *and it is unbecoming to you BK


You're a fuckwit of the highest order


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Freedom of speech doesn't extend to Holocaust denial. You have to have a line somewhere and this is generally agreed to be it.

It's up to his Uni if they decide that freedom of speech should be extended in this case, but he is using his PhD in connection with denying the holocaust, writing under his real name - that is something that the Uni should know about. If he merely had the views and kept them to himself, that would be one thing - but he's in a University, in a research position, and using his academic doctorate to add credibility to his claims - not blethering on the Stormfront boards under a pseudonym.

I think that a line has been crossed.


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## glenquagmire (Apr 15, 2008)

Yep, treelover talks some sense and then resorts to the usual Trot-baiting after a while. Ignore.


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## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

treelover said:


> This guy sounds odious and a nazi lover, (though he is partially right about Germans POW's being killed em masse: just after the war tens of thousands died primarily from neglect, disease and and hunger(read Other Losses) but I am not sure I like the idea of him being grassed up to his employers, this is typical Trot behaviour and it is unbecoming to you BK, i though more of you. it works both ways, one day it may be left wing or liberal views that people are grassed up for.



Good grief.


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## chico enrico (Apr 15, 2008)

glenquagmire said:


> I know unions have been sued by members (or ex-members) for not representing them adequately.
> 
> If they're in breach of rule that's another thing, but I can't find anything in the GMB rule book against being a COMPLETE AND UTTER FUCKING LUNATIC. Seems to be about the only thing you can't be victimised for.



wasn't Patrick Harrington, comicly camp, SS leather great-coat sporting ex NF 'wunder-kind' of the mid 1980s, a stuydent there? i remember there being pickets and stuff as lots of lecturers refused to teach him and students to attend the same classes as him.

either way, this conspiraGOON needs a stiff kicking.


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> wasn't Patrick Harrington, comicly camp, SS leather great-coat sporting ex NF 'wunder-kind' of the mid 1980s, a stuydent there? i remember there being pickets and stuff as lots of lecturers refused to teach him and students to attend the same classes as him.
> 
> either way, this conspiraGOON needs a stiff kicking.



I thought Pat Harrington was a student at East Ham Tech back then?


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

glenquagmire said:


> Yep, treelover talks some sense and then resorts to the usual Trot-baiting after a while. Ignore.



I'm always up for a bit of trot baiting but treelover is a bit wrong there.  Holocaust denial IS the line in the sand.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I worked with a C4 documentary team on this on a programme called 'Conspiracy - who really runs the world' which went out as schools programming sometime last year.
> 
> The most interesting but was when these two academics did some research into the mindset of conspiracy theorists. They asked a group of students some questions about trust levels, re. family, friends, support networks, colleagues, etc  then on the basis of their answers, sorted them into two groups - one of which they thought would be much more likely to ''believe''.
> 
> ...



That's interesting, the idea that a low level trust of trust for one's social circle might possibly manifest it's corollary in a high level of trust for the outpourings of an "elite" peer group, as at least as a premise for further research. Of course, the level of validation that one would receive from one's fellow "truth-speakers" would merely act as reinforcement of the "rightness" of such people and their theories, a kind of positive feedback loop of scary proportions.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

Amazing, all in the same week I have been called someone who 

supports the most vile racism and anti-Islamic hate speech  

is not just irritating, but horrid, hateful, a defender of genocide, a holocaust-denier and a whining front for those who kill ...stands with the defenders of genocide Scum. Pondlife. Shill ( by the 7/7 truthers)


and now a Trot on u75.


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## chico enrico (Apr 15, 2008)

trashpony said:


> What a vile loonspud. Holocaust deniers make my flesh crawl



yes, but only a complete cretin would believe it's as one dimensional as that.

just like david irving, they _know_ it's a load of bullshit. their agenda is to 'rehabilitate' fascism as the holocaust is the most damaging aspect to it from a PR angle (bizarre though that sounds, that _is_ pretty much how they see it) 

a more apt description of holocaust 'deniars' is 'holocaust _re-appraisers'_ because in reality they think the holocaust was a _GOOD _thing and there is nothing more that they would like to see occurr again. 

_THAT_ is their true agenda. anyone who believes the official 'historical revisionist' position is as much a mug as the 9/11 conspiraloons.


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Freedom of speech doesn't extend to Holocaust denial. You have to have a line somewhere and this is generally agreed to be it.
> 
> It's up to his Uni if they decide that freedom of speech should be extended in this case, but he is using his PhD in connection with denying the holocaust, writing under his real name - that is something that the Uni should know about. If he merely had the views and kept them to himself, that would be one thing - but he's in a University, in a research position, and using his academic doctorate to add credibility to his claims - not blethering on the Stormfront boards under a pseudonym.
> 
> I think that a line has been crossed.


Me too.


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## chico enrico (Apr 15, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> I thought Pat Harrington was a student at East Ham Tech back then?



nah, sure it wasn't. i remember going along once with a mate to chuck stuff at him and his minders off a walkway.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2008)

treelover said:


> This guy sounds odious and a nazi lover, (though he is partially right about Germans POW's being killed em masse: just after the war tens of thousands died primarily from neglect, disease and and hunger(read Other Losses)...


As did tens of thousands of allied prisoners who had to try to return home from the Soviet territories.


> ...but I am not sure I like the idea of him being grassed up to his employers, this is typical Trot behaviour and it is unbecoming to you BK, i though more of you. it works both ways, one day it may be left wing or liberal views that people are grassed up for.


Hasn't really got anything to do with Trotsky or his supposed political heirs, has it? And do you think that people weren't "grassed up" throughout the 19th and 20th centuries for left-wing views?


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## KeyboardJockey (Apr 15, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> nah, sure it wasn't. i remember going along once with a mate to chuck stuff at him and his minders off a walkway.




OK my mistake.  I wonder if he is related to the Harringtons of East London some of whom may have been involved in extreme right activities in the late 70's.


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## Spion (Apr 15, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> I'm always up for a bit of trot baiting


Oh, yeah? 

*leans, chewing gum, staring at Tory boy*


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Amazing, all in the same week I have been called someone who
> 
> supports the most vile racism and anti-Islamic hate speech
> 
> ...



The problem with being called a "trot", is that 9 times out of 10 the name-caller hasn't got much of a clue what a "Trot" actually is, they just saw it being used as a term of abuse in a re-run of an episode of "Citizen Smith".


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## butchersapron (Apr 15, 2008)

Harrington was at North London poly. There's a good re-telling of it on matb from one of the 'leaders' of the campaign:

Part 1

part2


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## Spion (Apr 15, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem with being called a "trot", is that 9 times out of 10 the name-caller hasn't got much of a clue what a "Trot" actually is, they just saw it being used as a term of abuse in a re-run of an episode of "Citizen Smith".


Absol-fucking-actly


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2008)

Lots of people in the public sector came under the witchfinders glare of the SWP through their control of local union branches , etc, many totally innocent, care to deny it, Spion?


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## treelover (Apr 15, 2008)

A well considered reply BK, may help me reflect on my view in this particular case.





> Freedom of speech doesn't extend to Holocaust denial. You have to have a line somewhere and this is generally agreed to be it.
> 
> It's up to his Uni if they decide that freedom of speech should be extended in this case, but he is using his PhD in connection with denying the holocaust, writing under his real name - that is something that the Uni should know about. If he merely had the views and kept them to himself, that would be one thing - but he's in a University, in a research position, and using his academic doctorate to add credibility to his claims - not blethering on the Stormfront boards under a pseudonym.
> 
> I think that a line has been crossed.


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## Spion (Apr 15, 2008)

treelover said:


> Lots of people in the public sector came under the witchfinders glare of the SWP through their control of local union branches , etc, many totally innocent, care to deny it, Spion?


No. I don't know about it. You provide the information and I'll give you my judgement.

What is Trotskyist about the SWP anyway?


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## glenquagmire (Apr 15, 2008)

And another thread flies off topic and onto left sectariana instead.

Well done, treelover.


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## quarsan (Apr 15, 2008)

On Blairwatch the conspiraloons are now saying Blairwatch is a Nazi site. And a 'government cover site'. Previously they've claimed we're an MI5 operation, funded by Mossad, MI6 agents and similar.

We just delete them.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 15, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> wasn't Patrick Harrington, comicly camp, SS leather great-coat sporting ex NF 'wunder-kind' of the mid 1980s, a stuydent there? i remember there being pickets and stuff as lots of lecturers refused to teach him and students to attend the same classes as him.
> 
> either way, this conspiraGOON needs a stiff kicking.



I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start.

And if he ever tries to give a speech again, you know what to tell the organisers.


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## biff curtains (Apr 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I posted about this bloke on here about 4 or 5 years ago, after _guess who_ was bigging him up.... He's also an alchemist who believes he's discovered purple gold.



Dr Jazz is actually mates with him.


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## chico enrico (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I don't think violence is ever the answer, .



fanny batter. violence is _always_ the answer. to _everything. _


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## tarannau (Apr 15, 2008)

Jazzz would be mates with Charles Manson, Myra Hindley and the dullest one out of Keane if he thought they'd give this conspiracy crap some time of day.


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

All linked to this 'alternative' culture, 'the war of position' at some point I'm guessing:



> It is necessary for us to predict future developments and invest our energies in 'fringe' activities where we judge that the issues will become key ones at a later date. Not only issues but the very language is used to formulate the debate must reflect our thinking. It is in this context that our present work should be viewed. We are playing a long-term game. We are prepared to invest in seemingly unprofitable areas if we feel that this will lead to great returns in the future.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

I think some people aren't necessarily anti-semitic per se but they go in for the whole idea of "It's what THEY want you to think so it must be bollocks." They're useful idiots for the fash ... 

I also have noticed that a lot of the people who follow this line of thought think things like the Burma regime is a good thing, that various totaliatarian dictatorships are good for the people and that it's only "western imperialism" that is trying to interfere with them. 

some of these people take it too far and have a bit of a fetish for the "iron fist", violence, and state repression and a massive contempt for anything approaching liberalism, and it's that that they oppose not the state or anything ... 



> yes, but only a complete cretin would believe it's as one dimensional as that.
> 
> just like david irving, they know it's a load of bullshit. their agenda is to 'rehabilitate' fascism as the holocaust is the most damaging aspect to it from a PR angle (bizarre though that sounds, that is pretty much how they see it)
> 
> ...



It's not bizarre at all. they know the holocaust happened, they think it was a good thing, but they know the outside world doesnt see it that way. so they attempt to persuade the world that it didn't happen. 

and yep, denial and revisionism are two completely different things.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 15, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> It's up to his Uni if they decide that freedom of speech should be extended in this case, but he is using his PhD in connection with denying the holocaust, writing under his real name - that is something that the Uni should know about.



Yes. Simply give notice to all Media you can think of and all student organisations too. Bells should start ringing quickly at his univ.

salaam.
*off to quickly write the sequel to the Protocols and plans to use PhD to sell it*


----------



## likesfish (Apr 15, 2008)

sorry bothering people who were in the bombings with your bonkers theory's
  deserves grass before breakfast but duelling sadly being outlawed a swift head butt will have to do 

what say we invite rachaman18 and his pals from the IDF over with a bulldozer make a pleasant change from torturing arabs? I'm sure the average idf squaddie will see him as an intellectual pushing the boundaries and not go batshit with an UZI at first sight 

the mans a cunt and needs culling


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## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I know some people here have been researching far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement, they might be interested to hear that this scumbag gave a lecture at the Big Green Gathering last year.



I take it "far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement" is on the "OK" list of conspiracy theories then?


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> I take it "far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement" is on the "OK" list of conspiracy theories then?



You're suggesting that's not happening?


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> You're suggesting that's not happening?



I don't know either way Cesare. I have seen it happen first hand with one particular  left-leaning group. I'm "suggesting" that if someone says "x" has happened because of "far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement" then that is a conspiracy theory.


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> I don't know either way Cesare. I have seen it happen first hand with one particular  left-leaning group. I'm "suggesting" that if someone says "x" has happened because of "far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement" then that is a conspiracy theory.



You were just having a pop then.

That site that I quoted from up there ^ is run by PH also mentioned up there ^. He helpfully provided the link here before he was banned. The front page has a link to Mother Earth, an eco org. Mind you, PH says he isn't far right anymore ...


----------



## likesfish (Apr 15, 2008)

but nazi's and there types always had some links with green issues
 look at the fruit bat nexus magazine


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Seems so.


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 15, 2008)

quarsan said:


> Let's just have some clarity here. He is not a revisionist but a denier:
> 
> 
> And what was Austchwitz like? Death camp? Extermination centre? Nope. It was like Butlins.



scum 

(not quarsan)


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> You were just having a pop then.



In the same way that, some posters on this thread are "just" associating "911 Truth" with "holocaust denial".

It's ok though. When it's one of *their *conspiracy theories, "they" must be batshit  insane "conspiraloons". When it's one of *our* conspiracy theories, all possible negative associations and opprobrium now (often erroneously) associated with the term "conspiracy theory" is avoided by pretending that "we" aren't referring to a "conspiracy theory" no matter how much it resembles one.


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 15, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He also gave a talk at the London Anarchist Forum a few years back. Silly fuckers.


 they are odd though .. i have never met anyone involved with the LAF in all my time  .. i don't think they actually doi anything do they?


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 15, 2008)

treelover said:


> This guy sounds odious and a nazi lover, (though he is partially right about Germans POW's being killed em masse: just after the war tens of thousands died primarily from neglect, disease and and hunger(read Other Losses) but I am not sure I like the idea of him being grassed up to his employers, this is typical Trot behaviour and it is unbecoming to you BK, i though more of you. it works both ways, one day it may be left wing or liberal views that people are grassed up for.



disagree with you on this one mate .. the left get fucked anyway so why not this guy  .. i really fucking hate holcaust denial


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 15, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> OK my mistake.  I wonder if he is related to the Harringtons of East London some of whom may have been involved in extreme right activities in the late 70's.


 doubt it .. he was a posh boy from kensington ( and it was north london poly)


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> In the same way that, some posters on this thread are "just" associating "911 Truth" with "holocaust denial".
> 
> It's ok though. When it's one of *their *conspiracy theories, "they" must be batshit  insane "conspiraloons". When it's one of *our* conspiracy theories, all possible negative associations and opprobrium now (often erroneously) associated with the term "conspiracy theory" is avoided by pretending that "we" aren't referring to a "conspiracy theory" no matter how much it resembles one.



'Their', 'they' & you with the 'rescues dragons' St George tagline lol


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> doubt it .. he was a posh boy from kensington ( and it was north london poly)



haha, yes, Patrick 'Ducky' Harrington in his Herr Flick coat. what a spunk-bubble. 

NB: isn't the (modern day) LAF another cover for that Troy Southgate goth nazi lot?


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> 'Their', 'they' & you with the 'rescues dragons' St George tagline lol


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> In the same way that, some posters on this thread are "just" associating "911 Truth" with "holocaust denial".
> 
> It's ok though. When it's one of *their *conspiracy theories, "they" must be batshit  insane "conspiraloons". When it's one of *our* conspiracy theories, all possible negative associations and opprobrium now (often erroneously) associated with the term "conspiracy theory" is avoided by pretending that "we" aren't referring to a "conspiracy theory" no matter how much it resembles one.



Blimey. I was sort of joking to make a point just now re your tag-line and criticisms; then I remembered that you were the anti-feminist, hard wired biology 'this is what men do' poster. Then I had a look at some of the rest of your posts. 'Weak' re that logo/swastika thread etc, as another example


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Bet you log off again now, though. Blagsta picked that up as well, when you were challenged  iirc


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> In the same way that, some posters on this thread are "just" associating "911 Truth" with "holocaust denial".
> 
> It's ok though. When it's one of *their *conspiracy theories, "they" must be batshit  insane "conspiraloons". When it's one of *our* conspiracy theories, all possible negative associations and opprobrium now (often erroneously) associated with the term "conspiracy theory" is avoided by pretending that "we" aren't referring to a "conspiracy theory" no matter how much it resembles one.



I don't see your point.

(a) While I'm not really involved in the green movement, I've heard a lot of people who are say that there have and are still attempts by the far right to infiltrate it. That isn't a conspiracy theory, it's a statement of fact, and doesn't say anything intrinsic about green politics (people have attempted to claim that but I disagree). There are attempts made by the far right to infiltrate all sorts of things - Israel/Palestine issues, monetary policy etc.

(b) There are certainly a lot of people who boost Troofer-type theories, are also far-right and try to blend in their whole theory about the Jews, usually via accusations of Mossad being involved in every fucking thing ever. This certainly isn't in doubt, just take a look around the net; I've spoken with 9/11/7/7 types who say the same thing, and that it's a disgrace and these people need to be weeded out because they discredit the whole thing (admittedly I think the whole thing discredits the whole thing but that's easier to show once you've kicked out those with ulterior motives).


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 15, 2008)

Just as a by-the-by thing, mainly for Badger Kitten....an image


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> Bet you log off again now, though. Blagsta picked that up as well, when you were challenged  iirc



And Libertarian Alliance. You couldn't make it up.


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> Bet you log off again now, though. Blagsta picked that up as well, when you were challenged  iirc



Huh? What, so I'm supposed to respond to your posts instantly and without fail?

And challenged about what precisely?


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> Huh? What, so I'm supposed to respond to your posts instantly and without fail?
> 
> And challenged about what precisely?



lol


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't see your point.
> 
> ....That isn't a conspiracy theory, it's a statement of fact



Based on:



FridgeMagnet said:


> I've heard a lot of people who are say that there have and are still attempts by the far right to infiltrate it



You see my point now, yes?



FridgeMagnet said:


> (b) There are certainly a lot of people who boost Troofer-type theories, are also far-right.....[snip]



There are also a lot of people who support some kind of '911 truth' who are nothing like your initial description and who are chasing entirely plausible and valid concerns regarding 9/11, 7/7, whatever etc etc.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> I don't know either way Cesare. I have seen it happen first hand with one particular  left-leaning group. I'm "suggesting" that if someone says "x" has happened because of "far-right infiltration into the Green or ecological movement" then that is a conspiracy theory.



It's not a conspiracy theory if it's true though, surely? 

sorry ... i haven't read the thread past my last post so i might be saying something completely stupid


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> disagree with you on this one mate .. the left get fucked anyway so why not this guy  .. i really fucking hate holcaust denial



So do i


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> Blimey. I was sort of joking to make a point just now re your tag-line and criticisms; then I remembered that you were the anti-feminist, hard wired biology 'this is what men do' poster. Then I had a look at some of the rest of your posts. 'Weak' re that logo/swastika thread etc, as another example



I disagree with you and now that makes me an "anti-feminist"? 
"Couldn't make it up", etc etc, etc.

You guys are absolutely hilarious.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

As for the left being infiltrated by the far right, that's nothing new. Sometimes it isn't even "infiltration", it's just the fact that the fash oppose the same things the left do, but they do so for different reasons. particularly environmentalism because of the whole rhetoric of "purity" and such like ...


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> lol



No common theme, oh none, none at all


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> I disagree with you and now that makes me an "anti-feminist"?
> "Couldn't make it up", etc etc, etc.
> 
> You guys are absolutely hilarious.



I bet someone else apart from me decides to read your posting history.


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

cesare said:


> I bet someone else apart from me decides to read your posting history.



Oh noes.


----------



## cesare (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> Oh noes.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> You see my point now, yes?



No. I don't see your point. _That was why I posted that whole thing regarding not seeing your point._


Darios said:


> There are also a lot of people who support some kind of '911 truth' who are nothing like your initial description and who are chasing entirely plausible and valid concerns regarding 9/11, 7/7, whatever etc etc.


Perhaps you could run my "initial description" by me again as I don't seem to recognise it in the slightest here.


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## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

To be completely fair, I also have "doubts" about 9/11. I'm sure that the people who crashed into the towers WERE islamic terrorists. The issue for me is how much knowledge the security services, or elements within them, had prior to the attacks, and whether they "allowed" the attacks to happen purely due to incompetence, or whether they knew but chose to say nothing for other motives. 

How much influence do the Saudi and other relevant governments have high up in the CIA etc and would elements sympathetic to them in the organisation have been capable of suppressing intelligence they had about terrorist attacks. for me there does appear to be a possibility that SOME in the CIA MIGHT have known about it and I suspect that as time goes on we will come some way towards discovering the truth about it. 

the racist, paranoid claims of the 9/11 truth movement, which are so often aimed at demonising either Jews or Saudis as a people do not help. 

No matter what I think of the US government I don't think even they would have been capable of organising the deaths of three thousand of their own citizens.

However, I do think that there must be an investigation into 9/11 and exactly what happened, however it possibly should wait about ten years or something, becuase right now, so soon after the atrocity, any investigation, by ANY organisation is likely to be highly politicised ...


----------



## Darios (Apr 15, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> The issue for me is how much knowledge the security services, or elements within them, had prior to the attacks, and whether they "allowed" the attacks to happen purely due to incompetence, or whether they knew but chose to say nothing for other motives.



All worthy questions to ask, but apparently conspiraloonery around these parts.....



frogwoman said:


> the racist, paranoid claims of the 9/11 truth movement, which are so often aimed at demonising either Jews or Saudis as a people do not help.



Yes, there are plenty of racists and paranoids who identify with the '9/11 truth movement. There are also a lot of non-racist and well balanced people who also do so.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 15, 2008)

Darios said:


> Yes, there are plenty of racists and paranoids who identify with the '9/11 truth movement. There are also a lot of non-racist and well balanced people who also do so.



I agree with that. 

I can't say I identify with the 9/11 truth movement as they tend to share a certain view about what happened that day and who was responsible that I do not share. 

I do not believe the US government ordered it.


----------



## pk (Apr 16, 2008)

9/11 "truthers" pick and choose the facts that support their arguments and when anyone shows their theories up to be hysterical bullshit they claim that they are working for the Black Ops people or whatever.

It's actually funny for a while, but sinister and dangerous when you think about the amount of gullible muppets swept up by it.

I hope there have been several efforts to alert this guy's employer to his vile beliefs.

That's Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, Research Fellow at:

University College London
Gower Street
London
WC1E 6BT
Telephone: +44 (0)20 7679 2000

sts@ucl.ac.uk

Departmental offices are located in 22 Gordon Square.

Let's hope this makes the news too, might shake a few more people off the idea that these "truthers" are doing anything truthful, but instead spreading vile anti-semitic bullshit in order to sell a few books. 
See David Icke for more details...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 16, 2008)

As to whether this guy should be grassed up to his employers:

Does it cut both ways?  Should union reps defend anybody? Dunno really.  Instead, he should be sacked for being an absolutely _fucking incompetent academic_.  Anybody who holds these views on WW2 (as well as 9/11) is as much a dullard as they are offensive and foul.  Anyway, however the priciples fall, I'd be very happy to see a whole lot of shit heading his way.

[Actualy, if there's this much info about, i guess UCL already know.  However they won't do anything about it out of some high minded intellectual principle, only if he becomes an embarassment. Lets name and shame]


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 16, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> To be completely fair, I also have "doubts" about 9/11. I'm sure that the people who crashed into the towers WERE islamic terrorists. The issue for me is how much knowledge the security services, or elements within them, had prior to the attacks, and whether they "allowed" the attacks to happen purely due to incompetence, or whether they knew but chose to say nothing for other motives.
> 
> How much influence do the Saudi and other relevant governments have high up in the CIA etc and would elements sympathetic to them in the organisation have been capable of suppressing intelligence they had about terrorist attacks. for me there does appear to be a possibility that SOME in the CIA MIGHT have known about it and I suspect that as time goes on we will come some way towards discovering the truth about it.
> 
> ...



this is pretty much where my position averages out, but lord knows i get flamed for it. When I have time for looking into it (not a lot recently) I sometimes come away thinking it was the "hidden government", sometimes that it was just an almighty cock-up. But you are right, there should be further investigation and plenty of perfectly sane people agree.

As for the bona fide loony troofers, they exist for sure. bona fide loonies probably exist for every shade of opinion there is on any matter. And some could be Counter Intel Pro of course  

<awaits flaming for daring to suggest CIP exists, nope, never - its just not possible >


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2008)

well I don't think it was "the hidden government" and I do think that tbh, it probably was a massive cockup. maybe someone inside the security services knew - i certainly don't think it was everyone in the organisation. its a question of how much they knew (becuase to be honest, given what i've read about the subject it's implausible IMO that NOBODY KNEW ANYTHING) and how much they chose to ignore and whether there was anyone who chose to actively assist, if so, they need to be found and punished. the fact is however that any investigation into it, by any side, at this moment in time will be very highly politicised, so maybe it should be conducted again in a few years. 

I think the government is fucked up enough as it is. Most of what happens is on public view it's just that people choose to ignore it. Why add all this crazy shit about secret societies, Jews and the illuminati? The evidence of the hypocrisy and the lies is right there in front of us, we don't need to invent conspiracies to make them look "evil". The facts are enough IMO. Its not that people in government are evil. They're just like us - it's the fact that they're seduced by the trappings of power and wealth which makes them do terrible things, just like any one of us could be. and they close their eyes to the world's injustices in the same way as any of us could. placed in a similar position to the politicians, making a few wrong choices, getting involved in a web of deciet and that sort of thing, any of us could end up behaving in that sort of a way. i write some pretty harsh things but i honestly don't believe that people in the government are "evil" or different from anyone else. 

the thing is, how much do any of us know, really?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 16, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> it probably was a massive cockup.



That's the most likely scenario. The various, top-heavy security services not sufficiently integrated, jealous of one another to the point of withholding information, tough competition for funding and executive favour. That sort of thing.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 16, 2008)

pk said:


> 9/11 "truthers" pick and choose the facts that support their arguments and when anyone shows their theories up to be hysterical bullshit they claim that they are working for the Black Ops people or whatever.




That's Holocaust denial in a nutshell as well: begin with an assumption (The Joos are lying), dwell long and hard on the minutiae that support your thesis and dismiss everything that doesn't, even if it's an avalanche of sound evidence. 

Odd, isn't it, that such a massive hoax has escaped the notice of tens of thousands of bona fide historians and yet is revealed to a gaggle of professional antisemites.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2008)

i think selfishness, apathy, prejudice and greed are baiscally the biggest causes of world problems and that is more frightening because i think it's in human nature, nobody is perfect. we all have our prejudices. i mean i know i do ffs. 

and then there's cognitive dissonance, people shutting their eyes and not wanting to see ... 

it's that IMO which is the problem, and all the economic inequality, exploitation etc which has accumulated over literally centuries, not a massive world conspiracy. 

it happens everywhere though and i'm not convicned that a major form of political change will get rid of it ... although i think that most people are basically decent (although everyone is flawed and normal people can be persuaded into doing or believing terrible things) but that gives me grounds for optimism as there are very few real bastards in the world. although they do exist, and unfortunately politics often tends to attract a certain type of person ...


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2008)

About this one:



> As surprising as it may sound, the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans. From April, 1945 five million Germans were rounded up after surrendering, and deliberately starved until well over one million had died - Source: http:// codohDOTcom/newrevoices/nrillusion.html



I first came across this in the early 90s, when an apparent anomaly in the numbers of German war dead was raised by reputable historians. It appeared - on the face of the figures - that there had been an unusually high rate of excess deaths amongst German POWs in the immediate aftermath of 1945 (this was in the wider context of debate over the refugee flows and mass expulsions of Germans from the east in the last days of the war and under the new management installed by Stalin). That at least was suggested by the sudden drop in the numbers held.

The explanation of the anomaly appeared in the Times Literary Supplement (I can picture reading it now in Castlebar library): by the end of the war the Nazis had ordered a Volkssturm, a 'people's storm' led by a ragtag Dad's Army. A lot of these were numbered amongst the POWs in allied hands at war's end, and many of them were doddery old men, or pimply face youths. These were released as they were considered to be harmless - and this release is what accounted for the sudden drop in the number of POWs held by the allies.

There was no suggestion of a deliberate policy of starvation targetting German POWs.

E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book _Other Losses_, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 16, 2008)

Idris2002 said:


> About this one:E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book _Other Losses_, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.



I think Bacque's been pretty thoroughly demolished. I found _Other Losses_ remaindered for $0.99 CDN not three years after it was published. When the book first came out he was a bit of a cause celebre on the talk circuit, then he dropped out of sight.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 16, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> ... although i think that most people are basically decent



If I didn't think that I'd have hurled myself off a bridge decades ago.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If I didn't think that I'd have hurled myself off a bridge decades ago.


\

'If there was hope, it lay in the proles. You had to cling to that'.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Darios said:


> All worthy questions to ask, but apparently conspiraloonery around these parts.....
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, there are plenty of racists and paranoids who identify with the '9/11 truth movement. There are also a lot of non-racist and well balanced people who also do so.



But, as i'm sure you know, words like 'conspiraloonery' have functions higher than mere meanings that a word can conjure up. They have the function of shutting down debate, of rubbishing those pesky characters who are causing angst amongst those practising self-deception. 'Liberal' is just such a word in the USA.

And 'conspiraloonery' makes no distinction as you did mate. It is a wide net that will view racists and paranoids as the same as non-racists and non-paranoids. It's not actually concerned with meaning, merely to shut down debate of subjects that cause too much discomfort for whatever reason.

I will necessarily have to add a rider that i have no truck with the man who is the subject of this thread. I know nothing about him, nor want to, nor care.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 16, 2008)

>They have the function of shutting down debate

You can't have a debate with a holocaust denier, nor with someone so convinced _in advance_ that 9/11 was an inside job that they will cherry-pick whatever 'evidence' supports that view and wilfully ignore anything that undermines it.


----------



## Frampton (Apr 16, 2008)

I myself am acutely sceptical of all conspiracy theories. Except of course, my belief that the Earth is hollow and no more than a refuelling stage for intergalactic transport.

But drawing a line around free speech? Nah. Speech with lines around it is no longer free speech. As for grassing people up and seeking their dismissal.... we're straight back to the fear and terrors of a Marxist or Fascist state.

People are free to spout whatever gratuitous nonsense they want. If it's vicious then they must expect repercussions. I'm not into banning people. It's what we do when they are up on their soapbox that matters.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Still awaiting Jazzzs thoughts on this matter with _great_ interest


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

What's the betting that his selective myopia will allow him to miss this thread then?

Better than Sticking up for the goon I suppose. How does Jazzz continually get duped by these cunts?


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> And 'conspiraloonery' makes no distinction as you did mate. It is a wide net that will view racists and paranoids as the same as non-racists and non-paranoids. It's not actually concerned with meaning, merely to shut down debate of subjects that cause too much discomfort for whatever reason.




Well you might not like it fela, but as Miguel de Cervantes remarked, "tell me what company you keep, and I'll tell you what you are." The issues of racism and sexism are clearly linked to holocaust deniers and/or far right/facism and those that associate themselves with them on common ground, such as certain conspiracy theories, may find themselves associated with racism and sexism as well - even if it's just on a gradual influence basis. Today's far right aren't all overt, there's a needle like insidiousness that isn't always obvious.





			
				fela fan said:
			
		

> I will necessarily have to add a rider that i have no truck with the man who is the subject of this thread. I know nothing about him, nor want to, nor care.



It's a pity you don't care, but I'm glad you want no truck with him.


----------



## jæd (Apr 16, 2008)

There's nothing wrong with doubting the official version of events. It just when you start making conspiracy theories to justify it. People screw things up sometimes. They get things wrong. Doesn't mean its an organised conspiracy though. Just people being people.

Its a pity there's such a "blame" culture so people could come clean and admit perhaps they did spot something dodgy going on, but either forgot about, or where told by others "not to exaggerate..." so they didn't report it...


----------



## treelover (Apr 16, 2008)

Sources for that?, there was even a documentary on the issues, with former German POW's of the US Forces stating how they had been left to starve, I am aware Stephen Ambrose(Band of Brothers) challenged him and he has revised his figures, but the intent still stands. In fact, at first Ambrose backed him up


'I have now read Other Losses and wish I had not. I have had nightmares every night since I started reading... You have a sensational if appalling story and it can no longer be suppressed, and I suppose (in truth I know) it must be published... I must withdraw my offer to write a Foreword; I just can't do it to Ike. I quarrel with many of your interpretations, [but] I am not arguing with the basic truth of your discovery.... you have the goods on these guys, you have the quotes from those who were present and saw with their own eyes, you have the broad outline of a truth so terrible that I really can't bear it.... You really have made a major historical discovery, the full impact of which neither you nor I nor anyone can fully imagine.... I have written at length about your script to Alice Mayhew, my editor at Simon and Schuster.'


Anyway, why should we not believe the Allies were not capable of such things, look at twenty years on and the horrors of Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia....


the debate here

http://hnn.us/articles/1266.html





> Idris said
> 
> There was no suggestion of a deliberate policy of starvation targetting German POWs.
> 
> E2A: Oh, and this was specifically in relation to the book Other Losses, mentioned by treelover further up the thread.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

as an aside, I saw this album the other day and thought of this thread, especially this  post







Honestly, Jazz seems like a decent bloke, why does he get suckered into this nonsense? How could you miss that your friend was a holocaust denier?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Honestly, Jazz seems like a decent bloke, why does he get suckered into this nonsense? How could you miss that your friend was a holocaust denier?



It's all the more amazing/daft/tragic considering that Jazzz is Jewish...


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't suppose that Pat Richardson feels that the BNP are anti-semitic either though.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> I don't suppose that Pat Richardson feels that the BNP are anti-semitic either though.



Oh yes he's the Jewish BNP candidate in Epping isn't he.  Thing is I KNOW that there are antisemites amongst the BNP supporters I heard them gobbing off about it often enough when I lived in East London, but what the party is saying  in public is totally different.  Theres more milage in attacking Muslims not Jews.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Tony Gosling, who is another maninstay of the 9/11 movemnt writes on his home page



> Wouldn't it be satisfying if the energy being put in to help sort out our misdirected world could turn things around? It would be comforting to think so but realistically the banks, corporate media and other transnational corporations, the merger maniacal 'dark side', are extending their monopolistic control.
> 
> The modern transnational corporation is an immortal, soulless collusion of greed that reduces everything it touches to a dollar value. In law a corporation is a person, able to own property and resources just as a person can only, it seems, not responsible for the deaths it causes. The present 'War on Terror' is a fraudulent attempt to create a new Moslem enemy, much like the attack on the Jew's in the 1930's. Nato and many Western Military masters are following the same tactics as Hitler's Nazis.



Yet he comments on a vicar whose daughter was killed on 7/7 (and who left the ministry because she could not forgive Sidique Khan, the bomber who killed her child) calling it an 'idiotic pseudo Christian vicar story (on the nineeleven.co.uk boards) 


> Idiotic because there is still no hard evidence that Kahn carried out this attack - mind you I can understand her confusion and distress being the victim of a high level UK/US/Israeli military Psycological Operation.
> One more reason to hold a proper enquiry.



I wonder how these people, who clearly think of themselves as being on the side of the angels and truth, can be so incredibly blind to what they are doing and who they are associating with?

Because unfortunately, it's not just a few fruitloops.

It has a pernicious effect...


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Odd, isn't it, that such a massive hoax has escaped the notice of tens of thousands of bona fide historians and yet is revealed to a gaggle of professional antisemites.



The main problem is in my view that history courses tend to be seen as "waste of time" by many schoolchildren and in many systems they are not even an obligatory part of the school curriculum.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> Oh yes he's the Jewish BNP candidate in Epping isn't he.  Thing is I KNOW that there are antisemites amongst the BNP supporters I heard them gobbing off about it often enough when I lived in East London, but what the party is saying  in public is totally different.  Theres more milage in attacking Muslims not Jews.



Pat Richardson's a 'she'. But yes, I don't know how long ago this quote from NG was: _“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” _ but it certainly seems that riding the Islamophobic tide trumps anti-semiticism on a pragmatic basis atm.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Tony Gosling <snip>



I wonder if Mr Gosling, when he's not too busy sending fake emails pretending to be from various groups, still believes that the Nazis were a jewish plot?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Pat Richardson's a 'she'. But yes, I don't know how long ago this quote from NG was: _“I am well aware that the orthodox opinion is that six million Jews were gassed and cremated or turned into lampshades. Orthodox opinion also once held that the earth is flat…I have reached the conclusion that the ‘extermination’ tale is a mixture of Allied wartime propaganda, extremely profitable lie, and latter day witch-hysteria.” _ but it certainly seems that riding the Islamophobic tide trumps anti-semiticism on a pragmatic basis atm.



My bad.  Got mixed up there sorry.

Richardson = tosser


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I wonder if Mr Gosling, when he's not too busy sending fake emails pretending to be from various groups, still believes that the Nazis were a jewish plot?


you're serious? I thought he, at least, did accept the Holocaust happened and that Jews were targeted by the Nazis? His post on his home page seems to say this. ( tragic loon home page is  www.  bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm 


> The present 'War on Terror' is a fraudulent attempt to create a new Moslem enemy, much like the attack on the *Jew's* in the 1930's. Nato and many Western Military masters are following the same tactics as Hitler's Nazis



edited: can't even use apostrophes properly


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Oh look, here we go, about why Tony Gosling has a problem with Jews.



> My spiritual beliefs
> 
> I have looked at many spiritual beliefs but nothing has spoken to me me on as high a level as Jesus' teachings and actions. The sermon on the mount (Matthew 5-7) shows that no-one has ever understood the importance of love, nor exactly what it means, more than the Messiah long-promised by God.
> 
> Many problems have been caused by some of the Jewish people's refusal to acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah. Many Jews, for example, live in old Testament Torah Times - believeing they are still 'God's chosen people'. It seems clear to me that God cut off the Jewish heirarchy from his favour after they pleaded successfully for the unjust death of his only son. The Israeli state's brutal and racist treatment of the Palestinian people makes it clear to me that Israel is no longer interested in the will of God.





> At least 52 different aspects of Christ's coming were prophesied in the Old Testament (see pp. xxvi-xxix, Jewish New Testament ISBN 965 359 006 5, Jewish New Testament Pubs. Inc. Maryland N.J. U.S.A.). Yet still He was not recognised as God's 'anointed one' or 'Messiah' by many Jews.
> 
> With a bit of Bible study we can be sure not to be deceived as the prophecies of the End Times unfold and Christ returns ultimately in glory for all the world to see.
> Hey Tony, did the Tribulation begin on September 11th 2001? Will it begin tomorrow or in two thousand years time.........?
> World Government is moving closer all the time - and what's the chance that it will serve the people? Zero! And hardly anybody tells the public or dares to talk about how totalitarian the European Union is. We could be in for some serious skullduggery in coming years/months. A political/financial crisis, combined with spiritual disinformation could push us into a Fourth Reich, New World Order, with an official world religion that claims to represent ALL religions. This is what Prince Charles is advocating NOW. Powerful people will certainly be preparing their version of a spiritual 'panacea' to fill the spiritual gap THEY have created.



Total fruitbat


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> you're serious? I thought he, at least, did accept the Holocaust happened and that Jews were targeted by the Nazis? His post on his home page seems to say this. ( tragic loon home page is  www.  bilderberg.org/tonyhom.htm
> 
> 
> edited: can't even use apostrophes properly



He certainly used to go along with the standard loon clap-trap that the Nazis were a Rothschild front (as seemingly is everything ever). He was also the main pimp behind Shayler, who has now become pretty openly anti-semitic, basing his ideas on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...this whole scene incubates this sordid stuff.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> To be completely fair, I also have "doubts" about 9/11. I'm sure that the people who crashed into the towers WERE islamic terrorists.



Well no, they were not because there is no such a thing like *"Islamic" terrorist.* 
They declared themselves to be Muslim and clearly thought they were Muslim and had to be utterly convinced that what they were doing was in line with Islam. While everyone a bit informed on Islam knows that can't be, it is also clear that the Western masses need to be indoctrinated by constantly linking of the word Islam with the word terrorist to keep "the new enemy" doctrine of fear alive.



> The issue for me is how much knowledge the security services, or elements within them, had prior to the attacks, and whether they "allowed" the attacks to happen purely due to incompetence, or whether they knew but chose to say nothing for other motives.



The real issue is not how much was known. The issue is that they didn't want to know what was given to them on a golden plate for years in a row, because of patronizing Western arrogance (how could the intelligence services of the brownies be competent?)  

Excuse me that I maybe sound a bit sharp, but I have more than enough of it to read hate inciting nonsense like 'Islamic terrorists" etc.. 

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Tony Gosling on his home page said:
			
		

> Postal Intercept
> Have you ever noticed that personal post that is not a bank statement or junk mail doesn't appear to arrive on a Monday morning? Have you ever wondered why? Have you ever realised the spooks that open our mail don't work at the weekend? If so, you, like me, may have been a victim of postal interception.
> As if that's not bad enough did you know that Deutche Bank, the German national bank, is using its unlimited cash resources to buy up all the postal systems in Europe, they also have their heavy artillery aimed at Britain's privatised Royal Mail?
> 
> In what appears to be a crude attempt at intimidation my post has been selectively intercepted/delayed/opened (at least up to September 2001) and may even be stolen in transit. <snip>



I am wrestling with whether he is mentally ill or not. If he ( or Kollerstrom) is seriously mentally ill then I suppose I should not be using words like fruitbat about them, and should try to feel pity for them.

But after seeing the way they carry on - especially Kollerstrom's offensive and inappropriate behaviour towards real people, causing real offence - live, not just words on the internet - it's very hard not to be angry and upset about it.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He certainly used to go along with the standard loon clap-trap that the Nazis were a Rothschild front (as seemingly is everything ever). He was also the main pimp behind Shayler, who has now become pretty openly anti-semitic, basing his ideas on the Protocols of the Elders of Zion...this whole scene incubates this sordid stuff.



To be fair to him, on his current home page he does not seem to be denying Nazi murder of Jews. He wrotes of Niemoller's famous 'First they came...' poem




			
				Tony Gosling on his home page said:
			
		

> 1.   It is quite worrying and depressing to see corruptions of the poem, purporting to be Niemoeller's original, beginning 'First they came for the Jews...' the rounding up of Jews happened towards the end of World War II and was, of course, Hitler's 'Final Solution' not 'First' at all.
> 2. What that famous and moving quotation does not mention is that before they came for the Communists, they came for the homeless, the mentally disabled, the unemployed, and all those categorized as "asocial." (from McSpotlight site: http://194.109.5.47/media/press/bioticbb_24feb99.html )
> 3. Once upon a time in Germany the Nazis rounded up citizens and murdered them. Other German citizens were so frightened by the Nazis they pretended not to see what was happening to their neighbors. Is the press in your country so frightened by the Elite your journalists and photo-journalists have become a group of "Not-Sees."? Or, are your journalists and photo-journalists "Not-Sees" because they can make more money being dishonest then they can from being honest?




Which makes it all the more bizarre that he is anything to with astro3 and does not complain at blatant holocaust denial being posted on the 9/11 loonsite

EDIT: surprise, surprise, the 9/11 holocaust denial thread has been removed from the 9/11 site after two days of people being directed to it by bloggers and on u75.

Well, that's something I suppose.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Well no, they were not because there is no such a thing like *"Islamic" terrorist.*
> They declared themselves to be Muslim and clearly thought they were Muslim and had to be utterly convinced that what they were doing was in line with Islam. While everyone a bit informed on Islam knows that can't be, it is also clear that the Western masses need to be indoctrinated by constantly linking of the word Islam with the word terrorist to keep "the new enemy" doctrine of fear alive.



Agree with that and sorry. sorry about using that phrase, of course i know that the terrorists' beleifs don't agree with what most muslims and Islamic scholarly opinion has to say about it


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Yeah but, yeah but, BK - compare Gosling's initial seeming stance to this of NG:



> One asks me how my demonisation of Muslims differs from Hitler’s demonisation of the Jews? The answer is simple: The Nazi critique was largely based on a hoax – The Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion. It was this work of fiction, combined with the fact that the Bolsheviks carrying out mass murder on an unprecedented scale all over Eastern Europe included a disproportionate number of radicalised secular Jews (itself a reaction to Czarist anti-Semitism), that set the scene for the tragedy of European Jewry.



but scratch the surface, and there's underlying clearer anti-semitism if you compare this ^ with the NG quote in my last post.

From the same American tour last November, NG goes on to say:



> I begin my speech to howls of protest and a barrage of hostile questions every couple of sentences. The mob is the all-too-familiar mixture of truly hideous lesbians, semi-dwarves of indeterminate sex, full-sized freaks, chip-on-shoulder anti-white racist minorities, angry Muslims, a half-handy looking lad who acts really hard and a couple of strikingly attractive blondes – typical of the people descended from the Swedish farmers who did so much to settle this part of the USA.



Charming.

Quotes from his personal blog btw.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Agree with that and sorry. sorry about using that phrase, of course i know that the terrorists' beleifs don't agree with what most muslims and Islamic scholarly opinion has to say about it



Most of the Irish didn't agree with the practices of the IRA, yet it's still perfectly acceptable to describe those who did actively support them as "Irish Terrorists'.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah but, yeah but, BK - compare Gosling's initial seeming stance to this of NG:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think he is anti-semitic - the religious drivel about Jews denying Christ and being cast away from God and end times shows that. I was just not sure if he went as far as his fellow-board member and campaigner, Nick Kollerstrom, the Holocaust-denier research fellow at UCL.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Lock&Light said:


> Most of the Irish didn't agree with the practices of the IRA, yet it's still perfectly acceptable to describe those who did actively support them as "Irish Terrorists'.



No. No, it's not.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I think he is anti-semitic - the religious drivel about Jews denying Christ and being cast away from God and end times shows that. I was just not sure if he went as far as his fellow-board member and campaigner, Nick Kollerstrom, the Holocaust-denier research fellow at UCL.



Yep. Perhaps his position will make become more overt over time.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> No. No, it's not.



Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think not?


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Lock&Light said:


> Perhaps you'd like to explain why you think not?



1) Not all of those 'actively supporting' the IRA were Irish.

2) 'Active support' doesn't necessarily mean acts of terrorism

3) How do you know that all the actual 'terrorists' were Irish?


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> 1) Not all of those 'actively supporting' the IRA were Irish.
> 
> 2) 'Active support' doesn't necessarily mean acts of terrorism
> 
> 3) How do you know that all the actual 'terrorists' were Irish?



1. Perhaps it wasn't as clear as it could have been, though I personally think it's obvious that I was talking about the Irish.

2. Active support for terrorism is tantamount to being a terrorist, IMO.

3. See 1.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

What L&L is trying to say in my reading is that every Muslim is in fact an Islamic Terrorist.

salaam.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> What L&L is trying to say in my reading is that every Muslim is in fact an Islamic Terrorist.
> 
> salaam.



That is proof positive of your idiocy.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> What L&L is trying to say in my reading is that every Muslim is in fact an Islamic Terrorist.
> 
> salaam.



I am pretty sure he is not saying that at all, but I can see that you are reading it that way.

A terrorist saying he is acting in the name of Islam ( which some do - see the martyrdom videos of the alleged airline plotters in which they make it very clear) - but that is not the same as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

I am sure that if you are a Muslim it is horrible to see what some people will do in the name of Islam - and they are not representative of Muslims nor are their actions  halal  - but nonetheless, they do state Islam as their justification.

I take the point about Christian terrorists not being the term used for abortion-clinic-bombers, but it does not take away from the fact that there are terrorists who say they are inspired to attack int he name of Allah, to avenge the sufferings of the Ummah, and that they expect to go to paradise for their actions. Yes - it's haram. But they don't think it is.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Anyway, this is all off topic in a thread about the holocaust-denying antics of a 9/11 & 7/7 ''Truth'' loon who works at UCL as a research fellow and cites his PhD in holocaust-denying essays.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am sure that if you are a Muslim it is horrible to see what some people will do in the name of Islam - and they are not representative of Muslims nor are their actions  halal  - but nonetheless, they do state Islam as their justification.



They can't do it "in the name of Islam". It is as impossible as acting "in the name of God"  



> I take the point about Christian terrorists not being the term used for abortion-clinic-bombers, but it does not take away from the fact that there are terrorists who say they are inspired to attack int he name of Allah, to avenge the sufferings of the Ummah, and that they expect to go to paradise for their actions.


So? If kill someone tomorrow and claim to act in the name of the Spaghetti Monster that would have the same value and credibility, but you would not take me serious, would you.

salaam.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Anyway, this is all off topic in a thread about the holocaust-denying antics of a 9/11 & 7/7 ''Truth'' loon who works at UCL as a research fellow and cites his PhD in holocaust-denying essays.



Did someone contact the Media and all known student organizations about it?

salaam.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> but you would not take me serious, would you.



If you found eighteen companions willing to help you crash some planes then you would be taken seriously.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> 1) Not all of those 'actively supporting' the IRA were Irish.
> 
> 2) 'Active support' doesn't necessarily mean acts of terrorism
> 
> 3) How do you know that all the actual 'terrorists' were Irish?



History tells us that quite a few OIRA and PIRA members were "plastic paddies", including a certain John Stevenson, aka _Sean Macstiofain_.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Lock&Light said:


> If you found eighteen companions willing to help you crash some planes then you would be taken seriously.



I don't think you would take it serious that we were acting the name of the Spaghetti Monster.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> History tells us that quite a few OIRA and PIRA members were "plastic paddies", including a certain John Stevenson, aka _Sean Macstiofain_.



Yeah I was thinking of the plastics, and the different 'terrorist' organisations etc.  Tis another example of a convenient label innit.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I don't think you would take it serious that we were acting the name of the Spaghetti Monster.



I have as much belief in the existence of the Spaghetti Monster as I have in the existence of Allah. (or God, or any other Sky Pixie)


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I don't think you would take it serious that we were acting the name of the Spaghetti Monster.
> 
> salaam.



What do you suggest terrorists who say things like this are called?


> In one video, Abdul Ahmed Ali refers to Osama Bin Laden's warnings to the West.
> 
> 
> Ali said: "Sheikh Osama warned you many times to leave our lands or you will be destroyed, and now the time has come for you to be destroyed.
> ...


----------



## fogbat (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I don't think you would take it serious that we were acting the name of the Spaghetti Monster.
> 
> salaam.



*confiscates Aldebaran's spaghetti tongs as potential weapons of mass destruction*
*eyes meatballs hungrily*


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Seriously, how do you think we should describe them?



> In another clip, Mr Ali said: “I’m doing this . . . to punish and to humiliate the kuffar [unbeliever], to teach them a lesson that they will never forget. It’s to tell them that we Muslim people have pride, our people of Allah, the people of Islam, we are brave. We are not cowards. Enough is enough.”
> 
> He added: “Sheikh Osama [bin Laden] warned you many times to leave our lands or you will be destroyed and now the time has come for you to be destroyed.”
> 
> ...



Most people are perfectly aware that not all Muslims are terrorists, but it is obvious that these men are Muslim and see themselves as acting in the name of Allah and Islam for the Ummah.

So - that's why they get called '' Islamic terrorists'' or ''Islamist terrorists''

Because they cite Islam as their rationale for terrorism.

It does not mean that everyone who follows Islam is a terrorist.  Obviously. And nobody is saying that.

 And yes, _we all know_ that Islam does not condone this sort of thing but it doesn't actually stop these men saying it does, and acting according to _their_ beliefs, which they say are Islamic beliefs and they consider themselves to be  shahid.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Well you might not like it fela, but as Miguel de Cervantes remarked, "tell me what company you keep, and I'll tell you what you are." The issues of racism and sexism are clearly linked to holocaust deniers and/or far right/facism and those that associate themselves with them on common ground, such as certain conspiracy theories, may find themselves associated with racism and sexism as well - even if it's just on a gradual influence basis. Today's far right aren't all overt, there's a needle like insidiousness that isn't always obvious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And if they do find themselves associated with racism and/or facism, and they're nothing of the sort, then what does that say about the people that have got it so categorically wrong?

I repeat, words like 'conspiraloonery' have higher functions than mere word meanings.

And the reason i said i didn't care is that i find it amusing and preposterous how people can get so worked up about such weird characters as this man, while accepting the likes of bush or blair as leaders, indeed, re-electing such butchers of humanity.

What the man of this thread has done is nowhere near as criminal as the leaders of the US or UK. Yet just look at the witchhunt going on. It's unreal.

Burn the fucking witch. How dare they have the wrong opinion.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> What do you suggest terrorists who say things like this are called?



Lunatics.

Edit: Overlooked this



> Because they cite Islam as their rationale for terrorism.



?
 Care to give actual references to were they could demonstrate that Islam condones, let alone incites people to say/do all this? 

salaam.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I wonder how these people, who clearly think of themselves as being on the side of the angels and truth, can be so incredibly blind to what they are doing and who they are associating with?
> 
> Because unfortunately, it's not just a few fruitloops.
> 
> It has a pernicious effect...



You give the impression of being like the people you express such disdain for. You post up judgment after judgment. You say categorically what other people think and believe. How do you know? You only base your own opinions on your own reactions. You show yourself to be really quite subjective.

I mean, using words like 'incredibly' and 'blind', well, it's pretty emotive language isn't it?

And just because a quarter of polled people have the 'wrong' opinion according to you, you label them 'fruitloops'...

I also get the impression that you're in a media job. Fuck that. No wonder the media in britain are so biased and fucked up.

You're actually quite dangerous.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> And if they do find themselves associated with racism and/or facism, *and they're nothing of the sort*, then what does that say about the people that have got it so categorically wrong?
> 
> I repeat, words like 'conspiraloonery' have higher functions than mere word meanings.
> 
> ...



And sexism.

If people spend a lot of time in the company of influential people with those sort of views, there's a possibility that they will start to accept those views even if on a subliminal basis, unless they are very strong in their own right, alert and not easily influenced.

'Weird characters' - some of these people are (or were) in positions of power and influence e.g. Irving and Kollerstrom.

As for Bush and Blair, as you say, they were elected - they influenced the populace. However, this thread isn't about Bush and Blair, is it?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> edited: can't even use apostrophes properly



What a fucking crime that is. The jails would be full to overflowing if everybody was punished for this appalling act.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> And sexism.
> 
> If people spend a lot of time in the company of influential people with those sort of views, there's a possibility that they will start to accept those views even if on a subliminal basis, unless they are very strong in their own right, alert and not easily influenced.
> 
> ...



So cesare, what about propaganda? 

Most people will listen to a holocaust denier, and just think of them as batty or misdirected.

Meanwhile those with the real power continue to rape the world, yet be accepted for who they are. Thanks to the appalling mainstream media.

This batty man is just that. But the likes of blair and bush are absolute total criminals, with the blood of thousands on their hands, yet threads like this get the two mixed up.

Who’s listening to who?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Lunatics.
> 
> Edit: Overlooked this
> 
> ...




They are the ones saying it, not me.
They are also renouncing what they said, some of them. Which I fully support.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> So cesare, what about propaganda?
> 
> Most people will listen to a holocaust denier, and just think of them as batty or misdirected.
> 
> ...



If this thread was about Bush and Blair - you might have a point. But as it isn't, tis all a bit surplus. We know about bloody Bush and Blair.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> S
> 
> Meanwhile those with the real power continue to rape the world, yet be accepted for who they are. Thanks to the appalling mainstream media.
> 
> This batty man is just that. But the likes of blair and bush are absolute total criminals, with the blood of thousands on their hands, yet threads like this get the two mixed up.



Christ, and you have the barefaced cheek to talk about the 'emotive' language  of others. That post reads like the Ladybird book for patronising moralising simpletons.

People are more than capable of interpreting the mainstream media for themselves you know. And they probably wouldn't have to resort to archaic and frankly insulting uses of language like 'batty man' either. It just goes to show how unperceptive and ludicrously out of touch you are with the UK populace- and there you are with the temerity to effectively lecture others. 

Wind your neck in and stop acting like such a know it all pillock.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You give the impression of being like the people you express such disdain for. You post up judgment after judgment. You say categorically what other people think and believe. How do you know? You only base your own opinions on your own reactions. You show yourself to be really quite subjective.
> 
> I mean, using words like 'incredibly' and 'blind', well, it's pretty emotive language isn't it?
> 
> ...



Oh, for heaven's sake.

He is a holocaust denier, and *proof *has been shown of this. This not a thread about Bush and Blair, neither of whom I am a fan of, so quit throwing straw about. It's silly.

As to me being quite dangerous, you're pretty laughably misinformed on that score as well


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> They are the ones saying it, not me.
> They are also renouncing what they said, some of them. Which I fully support.



That is nonsense reply. 

I asked where they gave irrefutable evidence that what they said or did or plotted to do is a command of Islam or in any way condoned/incited by Islam.

If they didn't (and they can't) but you still claim they did, who is the gullible brainwashed here, wanting to believe they in fact did give evidence while there is none?  

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Since when has religion been something you can deny someone else?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As to me being quite dangerous, you're pretty laughably misinformed on that score as well



How so?

How am i 'misinformed'?

Go on, show me.

All you've shown on this thread is supreme subjectivity, occasionally mixed in with argument based on emotiveness, not objectivity.

I mean, you want to grass someone up for their opinion? That is violence you're using. You're close to putting yourself into the same category as the man you despise. 

The reason i mentioned bush and blair is to try and get your shrieks about this man into some kind of context.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh, for heaven's sake.
> 
> He is a holocaust denier, and *proof *has been shown of this.



Proof eh? Fucking wow. 

Now how does this man's 'crime' compare to bush or blair's crimes?


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

And you're not guilty of 'emotiveness' then Fela. Don't make me laugh - you're the worst offender by a long straw, constantly telling us here what the British people think, despite you having absolutely no grip on the media or perceptions over here.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Since when has religion been something you can deny someone else?



Ah, that's easy, Bob.

You just have to know which is Good Religion and which is Bad Religion.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Freedom of speech doesn't mean no freedom to respond, fela. It works both ways.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> That is nonsense reply.
> 
> I asked where they gave irrefutable evidence that what they said or did or plotted to do is a command of Islam or in any way condoned/incited by Islam.
> 
> ...



Are you wilfully misunderstanding me? Because I know you are not stupid.


_They_ are the ones citing Islam as their inspiration for attacking civilians. _They_ are the ones saying things like 



> “I’m doing this . . . to punish and to humiliate the kuffar [unbeliever], to teach them a lesson that they will never forget. It’s to tell them that we Muslim people have pride, our people of Allah, the people of Islam, we are brave. We are not cowards. Enough is enough.”
> 
> He added: “Sheikh Osama [bin Laden] warned you many times to leave our lands or you will be destroyed and now the time has come for you to be destroyed.”



They are quite wrong to say so: _the Qu'ran does not justify or condone this. Islam does not justify or condone this_

But they say it and they say that they do this in the name of Islam.

There is a trial going on at the moment and their videos are being played. They said it.

I know the point you are trying to make, and it is a pointless point, because you are ignoring ( deliberately) what I am posting. I'm not saying Islam condones this: THEY ARE.

I say they are wrong to do this and doubtless, so do you.

But quit pretending that these men are not saying that they are acting as they do for the sake of Allah, and Islam, and Muslims, because they are. 

Given that they are, I asked you how you would describe them and their particular brand of terrorism which uses Islam as a [false, obviously] justification.

If you are so touchy about the fact that these men self-identify as Muslims and deliberately cite Islam as their justification for doing what they do[ even though it's wrong, there's nothing in the Qur'an to justify it, etc etc] then you are indenial, because they ARE saying it and they DID say it and there you flipping well go.

And no, for the nth time, of course this does not make me thing all Muslims are terrorists. Please treat me, and other posters with some respect.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Proof eh? Fucking wow.
> 
> Now how does this man's 'crime' compare to bush or blair's crimes?



"You can prove anything with facts..."


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Where did this thread switched to comparison between holocaust denier lunatic and Bush/Blair lunatics?

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Proof eh? Fucking wow.
> 
> Now how does this man's 'crime' compare to bush or blair's crimes?



What? We're not talking about Bush, or Blair, or Charles Manson, or Jack the Ripper, or Ian Brady or Bill the burglar or anyone else.

We're talking about Nick Kollerstrom.

If you haven't got anything to say about him and his holocaust denial, why don't you stop posting and do something else?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> How so?
> 
> How am i 'misinformed'?
> 
> ...




No, I have not advocated violence at all. In fact, if you read the thread properly you can see me saying precisely the opposite.

How are you misinformed?
Very misinformed.

Go and do some research. Or don't, but if you can't be arsed, quit calling me' dangerous'.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Where did this thread switched to comparison between holocaust denier lunatic and Bush/Blair lunatics?
> 
> salaam.


Fela Fan is trying to derail it with a truly feeble straw man.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Are you wilfully misunderstanding me? Because I know you are not stupid.



No. You insist they are "quoting Islam". Where? Why do you take the things you quoted about their sayings as "Islam"? 



> But they say it and they say that they do this in the name of Islam.
> 
> There is a trial going on at the moment and their videos are being played. They said it.



So? Because they say it, it is? Where on earth do you get this?



> I know the point you are trying to make, and it is a pointless point, because you are ignoring ( deliberately) what I am posting. I'm not saying Islam condones this: THEY ARE.



Same question. 



> But quit pretending that these men are not saying that they are acting as they do for the sake of Allah, and Islam, and Muslims, because they are.



And again. 



> Given that they are, I asked you how you would describe them and their particular brand of terrorism which uses Islam as a [false, obviously] justification.



Lunatics. (again, I said that already)



> If you are so touchy about the fact that these men self-identify as Muslims and deliberately cite Islam as their justification for doing what they do[ even though it's wrong, there's nothing in the Qur'an to justify it, etc etc] then you are indenial, because they ARE saying it and they DID say it and there you flipping well go.



They can tell about themselves whatever they like. You are the one in denial about the simple fact that anyone claiming anything about no matter what does not imply they are correct, let alone speaking for anyone or anything else but themselves. 



> And no, for the nth time, of course this does not make me thing all Muslims are terrorists. Please treat me, and other posters with some respect.



Do yo always think that someone disagreeing with you does that out of "disrespect".
You are on the wrong track (and arguing the wrong argument). 
That's all.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

They believe they are Muslims (see video transcripts). You don't have to agree, it's nothing to do with you.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> They believe they are Muslims (see video transcripts). You don't have to agree, it's nothing to do with you.



That is not what the argument is about. It is about what Badger Kitten believes, (attributing lunatics of the highest order credibility of the highest order). 

salaam.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> They believe they are Muslims (see video transcripts). You don't have to agree, it's nothing to do with you.



^^^

they aren't claiming to be Scientologists are they.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Have you actually bothered to read what the men said on the video justifications for attacking airlines, Aldebaran?

Do I have to go and get it all for you? I have quoted quite a bit of it already,why don't you look for yourself?

I know that there is no justification in Islam for it, but that does not stop them saying that there is.

They are saying it not me.

No, they aren't lunatics. That is the comfortable feel-better place to file them. They are perfectly sane and they honestly think that they are right, and that what they were planning was and is going to lead to Allah rewarding them in Paradise. They said it, not me.

Go and read what they said.

Before flying off the handle at me for pointing it out.

Or deny that they said it, but it was played on a video in a court in a trial this week and many, many people saw it and heard it for themselves, and the transcripts have been reported accurately.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

fogbat said:


> Ah, that's easy, Bob.
> 
> You just have to know which is Good Religion and which is Bad Religion.



Hehehehe  




fogbat said:


> "You can prove anything with facts..."




We're in that taxi again


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> That is not what the argument is about. It is about what Badger Kitten believes, (attributing lunatics of the highest order credibility of the highest order)



You're coming accross as a bit of a muppet here tbh.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

No, but you're splitting hairs Aldebaran.

These suicide bombers believed that, for whatever bizarre reason, their religion excused their action. Nobody's arguing whether their interpretation of the Koran was correct, or whether they're 'proper' muslims.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Freedom of speech doesn't mean no freedom to respond, fela. It works both ways.



I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.

It's just violence.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> What? We're not talking about Bush, or Blair, or Charles Manson, or Jack the Ripper, or Ian Brady or Bill the burglar or anyone else.
> 
> We're talking about Nick Kollerstrom.
> 
> If you haven't got anything to say about him and his holocaust denial, why don't you stop posting and do something else?



I"m posting about your reactions to the man. Perfectly on topic.

They are extreme. I just wonder why.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> That is not what the argument is about. It is about what Badger Kitten believes, (attributing lunatics of the highest order credibility of the highest order).
> 
> salaam.




I am getting a bit sick of what is either sophistry or wilful misunderstanding and misrepresentation.

You are trying to make the point that Islam condemns this kind of thing. I agree. _I have said so. I know so._ You're onto a hiding to nothing with that one. I do not need to be convinced that what they were planning is un-Islamic so quit it, will you? It's actually a bit insulting. 

Nonetheless - and this is the point that you are consistently refusing to respond to -  these men self-identify as Muslims and claim that they intend to bomb airlines because of their beliefs

I suggest you bother to familiarise yourself with what they said and what they said about why they said it.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.



Rubbish. All she's advocated doing is complaining about what he has said because he is in a position to influence students. If he didn't want complaints - he shouldn't have said it.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Have you actually bothered to read what the men said on the video justifications for attacking airlines, Aldebaran?
> 
> Do I have to go and get it all for you? I have quoted quite a bit of it already,why don't you look for yourself?



I'm not interested in looking at what lunatics say. 

The whole point is that _you_ say that what they say is "Islam" or "reference to Islam". 
You repeat that over and over again. 
Hence I ask you where you get that.
Your reply, again and again : "because _they_ say it".

Yes, and? 
Again: Where is your evidence that what they say is "Islam"?

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.


You wot? Do you know anything about history because you're just looking stupid here. McCarthy (Note: not Mac) made stuff up, made wild unjustified allegations with no basis and lied like there was no tomorrow.

Your comparison is fucking shit.

As is your stupid, lazy and all round ignorant assault on the English Language. Buy a fucking dictionary you pillock.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.



Rubbish. "Wipe him out'?

Do you actually read what you post, or does this kneejerk knobbery come  naturally to you?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

So, any news from Jazzz yet?

No?

How strange


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> No, I have not advocated violence at all. In fact, if you read the thread properly you can see me saying precisely the opposite.



From post #72

"I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start"

That is violence. Imposition is violence.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> You're coming accross as a bit of a muppet here tbh.



No, Badger Kitten just does not get my point, I'm afraid.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm not interested in looking at what lunatics say.
> 
> The whole point is that _you_ say that what they say is "Islam" or "reference to Islam".
> You repeat that over and over again.
> ...


You're saying their Islam is not your Islam? Well done, have a medal and go bore someone else to death. Otherwise i'd look here:



> In another clip, Mr Ali said: “I’m doing this . . . to punish and to humiliate the kuffar [unbeliever], to teach them a lesson that they will never forget. It’s to tell them that we Muslim people have pride, our people of Allah, the people of Islam, we are brave. We are not cowards. Enough is enough.”



They refer to Islam or their Muslim brothers on a fairly frequent basis. You can't deny that. Perhaps you're failing to make yourself understood, they aren't dictating Islam to their adherents, their word is not being taken down as Gospel, what on earth makes you think what they say Islam? Your questions make little sense, a good part of any confusion is your fault here i'm afraid.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.



Actually, why don't you look at what I said?



Badger Kitten said:


> Freedom of speech doesn't extend to Holocaust denial. You have to have a line somewhere and this is generally agreed to be it.
> 
> It's up to his Uni if they decide that freedom of speech should be extended in this case, but he is using his PhD in connection with denying the holocaust, writing under his real name - that is something that the Uni should know about. *If he merely had the views and kept them to himself, that would be one thing - but he's in a University, in a research position, and using his academic doctorate to add credibility to his claims - not blethering on the Stormfront boards under a pseudonym.*
> 
> I think that a line has been crossed.



You might also note two posters advocating violence, and me saying, no, violence is not the answer.

So, nowhere did I say that I wanted to 'get rid' of him 'wipe him out' or 'ruin him'. Why don't you actually read what people post?


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> From post #72
> 
> "I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start"
> 
> That is violence. Imposition is violence.



lol

You're being violent on this thread fela, cos you're imposing on it


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, any news from Jazzz yet?
> 
> No?
> 
> How strange



I think he's sticking to writing about football today.

Obviously he's too ashamed to show his face on this thread for the moment. He's such a willing patsy and sucker for these Holocaust-denying wankers. 

I do hope he's not going to play mealy-mouthed apologist when he surfaces.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> You wot? Do you know anything about history because you're just looking stupid here. McCarthy (Note: not Mac) made stuff up, made wild unjustified allegations with no basis and lied like there was no tomorrow.
> 
> Your comparison is fucking shit.
> 
> As is your stupid, lazy and all round ignorant assault on the English Language. Buy a fucking dictionary you pillock.



Now, what could i find in the dictionary to right any wrongs that i've made? Go on, show me any misspellings i've made that i could have not made had i referred to the fucking dictionary...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm not interested in looking at what lunatics say.
> 
> The whole point is that _you_ say that what they say is "Islam" or "reference to Islam".
> You repeat that over and over again.
> ...




Right. I've explained, and I suggest you read my posts again. Preferably without projecting your own issues all over them to the extent that you can't seem to grasp what I have explained quite clearly several times, or being wilfully obtuse.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> From post #72
> 
> "I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start"
> 
> That is violence. Imposition is violence.



That's the best you've got?

Worra load of shite.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Now, what could i find in the dictionary to right any wrongs that i've made? Go on, show me any misspellings i've made that i could have not made had i referred to the fucking dictionary...


Dictionaries don't just let you check your spelling moran. They also help with meanings of words. Pick a meaning:



> 1.  Physical force exerted for the purpose of violating, damaging, or abusing: crimes of violence.
> 2. The act or an instance of violent action or behavior.
> 3. Intensity or severity, as in natural phenomena; untamed force: the violence of a tornado.
> 4. Abusive or unjust exercise of power.
> ...


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> You might also note two posters advocating violence, and me saying, no, violence is not the answer.



This is what you said:

"I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start"

That looks very much like violence to me.


----------



## trashpony (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm not interested in looking at what lunatics say.
> 
> The whole point is that _you_ say that what they say is "Islam" or "reference to Islam".
> You repeat that over and over again.
> ...




If I write: John says 'All white women should be shot', it doesn't mean that's what I think, it means that's what John thinks. It's called reported speech and that's what BK's doing. I don't know if English is your first language so it may be a language problem?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran has made it quite clear that rather than look at the facts and the evidence for himself, he is not interested in looking at what the men said.

Since we are talking _about what the men said_, that makes it rather difficult to have any kind of meaningful debate with him.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

tarannau said:


> No, but you're splitting hairs Aldebaran.


No, I'm not. 
I try to find out why Badger Kitten claims that what these people say is "Islam" by the mere fact they say it. 



> These suicide bombers believed that, for whatever bizarre reason, their religion excused their action. Nobody's arguing whether their interpretation of the Koran was correct, or whether they're 'proper' muslims.



They can believe what they want, that gives no reason to claim that whatever they believe is "Islam" simply by the mere fact _they_ believe it is.
And in addition: In what is quoted here I see no single reference to Islam, its teachings, its commands.  Just the repeated nonsense of that type of lunatics. 

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

You seem to be getting a bit worked up fela. Drop the ego and feel nothing.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

"I'm going to charge you with violent assault because you've pointed at me'

Or howsabout 

'I'm going to charge you with grevious bodily harm for pwn'ing me on a website' 

You don't half make a prize prick out of yourself Fela. Keep it going numbnuts - very entertaining.



Coming later, how puking noises are the new happyslapping.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

I see, you're complaining because the suicide bombers didn't reference their sources correctly. Mark down their work appropriately ladies and gentlemen.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Aldebaran has made it quite clear that rather than look at the facts and the evidence for himself, he is not interested in looking at what the men said.
> 
> Since we are talking _about what the men said_, that makes it rather difficult to have any kind of meaningful debate with him.



I talk about what you quoted, claiming that is "Islam" and on top of it, it is "Islam" merely because those lunatics said these words.

salaam.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Hehehehe
> 
> 
> We're in that taxi again



I should start paying rent, to be fair


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> This is what you said:
> 
> "I don't think violence is ever the answer, but pwn-ing, pointing and making violent puking noises are a good start"
> 
> That looks very much like violence to me.



Trashpony, Bob, I'm pointing at you and making puking noises right now, as well as typing words on a screen. Please report back if you can feel any pain or whether any part of you has been injured. Or whether you can sense it in any way at all, and if so, how violent it is on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a gentle push and 10 being a hard blow to the head with an anvil.

Thanks.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I try to find out why Badger Kitten claims that what these people say is "Islam" by the mere fact they say it.



She hasn't, you clueless muppet.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I see, you're complaining because the suicide bombers didn't reference their sources correctly. Mark down their work appropriately ladies and gentlemen.


They have no sources, so I am asking BK why he claims they have, while knowing they don't.

salaam.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, any news from Jazzz yet?
> 
> No?
> 
> How strange



oh, I only just saw this thread.

A whole finger-pointing expose of _Nick Kollerstrom_? 

yes I do know him although I haven't seen him for a while. I've never discussed WWII with him. He's always struck me as quite harmless.

Let's round him up though!


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Trashpony, Bob, I'm pointing at you and making puking noises right now, as well as typing words on a screen. Please report back if you can feel any pain or whether any part of you has been injured. Or whether you can sense it in any way at all, and if so, how violent it is on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a gentle push and 10 being a hard blow to the head with an anvil.
> 
> Thanks.


I feel a slight pressure in my bladder which has been building for some time, it could be due to internal haemorrhaging from your vicious impositions upon me, or it could be because of the liquids i've been drinking...

I'll rate it as a .5 but that might increase as time goes on.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> oh, I only just saw this thread.
> 
> A whole finger-pointing expose of _Nick Kollerstrom_?
> 
> yes I do know him although I haven't seen him for a while. I've never discussed WWII with him. He's always struck me as quite harmless.



And the wrigglethon begins!


----------



## trashpony (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Trashpony, Bob, I'm pointing at you and making puking noises right now, as well as typing words on a screen. Please report back if you can feel any pain or whether any part of you has been injured. Or whether you can sense it in any way at all, and if so, how violent it is on a scale of 1-10 with 1 being a gentle push and 10 being a hard blow to the head with an anvil.
> 
> Thanks.



Ow 

I'm not far you know - I can sense your vibes 

Oh alright I had no idea until I read this post. I'm no mind reader


----------



## fogbat (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I talk about what you quoted, claiming that is "Islam" and on top of it, it is "Islam" merely because those lunatics said these words.
> 
> salaam.



Hi Aldebaran,

I'm genuinely not trying to stir, or be awkward, but I read Badger Kitten's posts on this subject very differently.

All I understood her to be saying was that some people described as terrorists have claimed to be committing / planning these attacks in the name of Islam.  The connection between Islam and the attacks was made by these people, irrespective of their accuracy, not BK.

"Islamic terrorists" has been used as shorthand for those people popularly considered terrorists (as would I, but I'm trying to remain as objective as I possibly can here), due to their association with and claimed belief in Islam.  BK, however, hasn't even remotely suggested that Islam == terrorism / murder / violence etc.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> You're saying their Islam is not your Islam?



I'm saying "their" Islam doesn't exist in Islam. 



> They refer to Islam or their Muslim brothers on a fairly frequent basis. You can't deny that.



So what? See above.



> Perhaps you're failing to make yourself understood, they aren't dictating Islam to their adherents, their word is not being taken down as Gospel, what on earth makes you think what they say Islam? [/qutoe]
> 
> I think you just turned the whole discussion upside down. BK is the one claiming what they say is "Islam", for no other reason than it is said by them.
> 
> salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

fogbat said:


> Hi Aldebaran,
> 
> I'm genuinely not trying to stir, or be awkward, but I read Badger Kitten's posts on this subject very differently.
> 
> ...



Thank you.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 16, 2008)

oh and if people really want me why not pm? I don't usually bother checking UK politics.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> BK is the one claiming what they say is "Islam"



I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you can't read.


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> oh and if people really want me why not pm? I don't usually bother checking UK politics.



Or the integrity of the Holocaust denying wankers that you seem to associate with  either it seems.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I think you just turned the whole discussion upside down. BK is the one claiming what they say is "Islam", for no other reason than it is said by them.
> 
> salaam.


I don't think she is, i think she's been saying that they were doing it _for_ Islam / in the name of Islam

What they say is no more "Islam" than a Catholic's protests that abortion is immoral is "Christianity". It makes no sense linguistically. I think we're looking at an error in translation here.

If the discussion is going to get anywhere other than exasperation i suspect a pause and a return to the first post might be in order. Ie you identify the first post you disagree with and ask BK to restate the part that you object to, that way you can see if it's jsut a linguistic nuance or you really do disagree with what's being said.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> You seem to be getting a bit worked up fela. Drop the ego and feel nothing.





Actually i'm sitting here calm as you like. Enjoying life. But i read through this thread, and it looked like a real violent expose of urban75 life. All these phone numbers and email addresses, and calls to expose the man to his employers.

As if holocaust denial is the greatest crime.

And the thread starter said a line had been crossed, and that such opinions should not be allowed, or at any rate should be effectively punished.

I wondered how this man's 'crimes' compared to the likes of blair or bush. 

But i was told that was off-topic.

I do stray into politics forums you know mate. Ugly as they are.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> I'm saying "their" Islam doesn't exist in Islam.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes. That is what I said. They are wrong to say it. It is un-Islamic BUT, Aldebaran, that doesn't actually stop them saying they do it for Islam and Allah and the Ummah and that they are Muslims.

 YOU are the one turning the discussion upsidedown.

Read what they said.
Read what I said.

Please. Actually read it, rather than posting based on what you think I am saying, because you are getting what has been said completely wrong.

And it's a bit frustrating trying to point this out over and over again, only for you to miss the point yet again.


----------



## Dhimmi (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> PWNing him seems rather overdue



Good bit of digging. Here's one I found earlier...
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=7335849&postcount=70


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't see much point in hounding Jazzz, although it is worth a brief mention in the long list of crap sources he's relied upon. It is a trend Jazzz, one you should take note of.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

fogbat said:


> All I understood her to be saying was that some people described as terrorists have claimed to be committing / planning these attacks in the name of Islam.  The connection between Islam and the attacks was made by these people, irrespective of their accuracy, not BK.
> 
> "Islamic terrorists" has been used as shorthand for those people popularly considered terrorists (as would I, but I'm trying to remain as objective as I possibly can here), due to their association with and claimed belief in Islam.  BK, however, hasn't even remotely suggested that Islam == terrorism / murder / violence etc.



mm... Not exactly. BK claimed "they cite Islam".




Badger Kitten said:


> Seriously, how do you think we should describe them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On which I asked where on earth they "cite Islam", followed by more quotes by BK and in which no such "citing" appeared.

salaam.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> oh and if people really want me why not pm? I don't usually bother checking UK politics.



Oh how they prayed you would turn up on this thread mate. They've smelled prey, and they want more. Witchhunts live on even in the modern age...


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I'm rapidly coming to the conclusion that you can't read.



Second language - might not understand


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2008)

Will you still be counting Kollerstrom as 'a friend' from now on then Jazzz? Does this news affect how seriously you will take any of his other 'research' - or are you just going to, as you so often claim others are doing, sweep it under the carpet?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 16, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Oh how they prayed you would turn up on this thread mate. They've smelled prey, and they want more. Witchhunts live on even in the modern age...



really stop it, you're making a tit of yourself


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I don't see much point in hounding Jazzz, although it is worth a brief mention in the long list of crap sources he's relied upon. It is a trend Jazzz, one you should take note of.



It's worth pressing him on at it at least as this is someone he's worked closely with in real life. It fits perfectly the situation that many people warned jazz he'll end up embroiled in - it would be nice to see what he has to say now that we've been proven to be right again.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 16, 2008)

smokedout said:


> really stop it, you're making a tit of yourself



Hardly anything for me to worry about.

Are you speaking for yourself, or for loads of others too?


----------



## tarannau (Apr 16, 2008)

You're right of course smokedout. What Fela doesn't know is that we're all laughing at him and making puking noises from the safety of our keyboards.

With the amount of 'violence' that we're dishing out to him, the poor ridiculous idjut will be hospitalised within minutes...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran, I will try to explain to you one last time, using an example

*Man to abortion doctors held hostage at conference*: '' I am going to kill you. You are wicked and evil and deserve to die. I act in Jesus name, Jesus said sinners must be punished. Jesus will reward me for my actions.''


*Man to politicians held hostage at conference*: '' I am going to kill you. You are wicked and evil and deserve to die. I act in Jesus name, Jesus said sinners must be punished. Jesus will reward me for my actions.''
*
Badger Kitten*: The man threatened his victims, doctors who performed abortions, and politicians at a conference  saying he would kill them in Jesus name. He has been identified as the leader of a far-right Christian terrorist organisation, who believe they must kill all sinners so that Jesus can return to reign in glory.

*Theological student*: But Badger Kitten! Where does it say that Jesus condones violence? This is not Christian! This is not in the New testament

*Badger Kitten*: I _know_. Of course it isnt.  I am reporting what the men _said_. Of course it is not ''Christian'' and nothing in the New Testament or life of Jesus could be used to  justify it. But the man says he is acting in Jesus name, and because of that he is described as a Christian terrorist. 

*Theological student:* But BK is the one claiming what he does is Christian, for no other reason than  he says he acts in Jesus' name.
*
BK:* No, I'm not saying what he is  doing is Christian. It is unChristian. It is completely wicked and  wrong. I am saying - I am reporting -  that he is saying that he acts in Jesus name  - not that Christians endose such behaviour, which is blatantly un-Christian. 

Can you see the difference?

How could anyone leap to the conclusion that I am saying all Christians are terrorists, or that Christianity endoses terrorism, simply by reporting about a man who said he was committing terrorism in the name of Jesus?

If you still can't see it then I give up.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Second language - might not understand



Then may I suggest he takes a bit more care before getting into an argument based on interpretation of words in that language?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Yes. That is what I said. They are wrong to say it. It is un-Islamic BUT, Aldebaran, that doesn't actually stop them saying they do it for Islam and Allah and the Ummah and that they are Muslims.



That is not the point under discussion.



> YOU are the one turning the discussion upsidedown.[/qutoe]
> Correction: You still don't see what it is about (see my former post)
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Then may I suggest he takes a bit more care before getting into an argument based on interpretation of words in that language?



Or BK can try and explain again taking that into account, which she has done.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

So your sole objection is the "they cite Islam" line?

Which incidentally i can't see as a quote, BK says they do it in the name of Islam, which they do and is irrefutable...

YOU'RE the person who dragged this off into a question of how they could possibly claim to be doing this in the name of Islam. Not BK.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Aldebaran, I will try to explain to you one last time, using an example



Bad examples. You didn't add "They cite Christianity".

Which would make your "theology student" ask you the same questions I did.

salaam.


----------



## chazegee (Apr 16, 2008)

I don't really understand the vitriol slung at people who question the standard version.

After watching the film Zeitgeist with a massive hangover, I believed every last minute of it.

Now after a nights sleep and a bit of research, I debunked a lot of it, but it showed me one thing; If a bunch of hippies with a Mac can convince me of one version, to fucking right the Government with all it has at it's disposal could lead me up the garden path...


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> So your sole objection is the "they cite Islam" line?



Of course. Which I made clear again and again by asking proof of references again and again.

salaam.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Which incidentally i can't see as a quote, BK says they do it in the name of Islam, which they do and is irrefutable...



It is what BK said they did: "cite Islam".



> YOU'RE the person who dragged this off into a question of how they could possibly claim to be doing this in the name of Islam. Not BK.



Again turning things upside down. 
I asked for evidence they "cited".."Islam".

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Of course. Which I made clear again and again by asking proof of references again and again.
> 
> salaam.


I edited but i'll restate:

They cite Islam as their motivation, that's what BK said:


> I am sure that if you are a Muslim it is horrible to see what some people will do in the name of Islam - and they are not representative of Muslims nor are their actions halal - but nonetheless, they do state Islam as their justification.



She's reporting a fact, they cite Islam as a cause/justification. That does not mean they are referencing a part of the Koran with the proper Harvard notation, it means they are saying that it is their justification. To cite something 

There can be no discussion on the line "they cite Islam". It's a fact, they do it:



> In another clip, Mr Ali said: “I’m doing this . . . to punish and to humiliate the kuffar [unbeliever], to teach them a lesson that they will never forget. It’s to tell them that we Muslim people have pride, our people of Allah, the people of Islam, we are brave. We are not cowards. Enough is enough.”






			
				Dictionary for cite said:
			
		

> 1: to call upon officially or authoritatively to appear (as before a court)
> 2: to quote by way of example, authority, or proof <cites several noteworthy authors>
> 3 a: to refer to; especially : to mention formally in commendation or praise b: to name in a citation
> 4: to bring forward or call to another's attention especially as an example, proof, or precedent <cited the weather as a reason for canceling the picnic>



They are refering to Islam (option 3 from the list).


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Second language - might not understand



Well, no language, actually... 
Might be people don't understand me 

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> mm... Not exactly. BK claimed "they cite Islam".
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I have suggested you read the men's words for yourself.


However, you seem unable or unwilling to do so. Here are some key quotes.





> "You and show more care and concern for animals than you do for the Muslim Ummah [the Islamic nation].
> 
> "Those who know me, who really know me, will know that I was the happiest person that they could ever have imagined, and those that know me know that I was over the moon that Allah has given me this opportunity to lead this blessed operation.
> 
> ...





> "This is from Umar Islam, the son of Islam, to the people of the world, to let you know the reasons for this action which Inshaallah [God willing] I am going to undertake. This is an obligation on me as a Muslim to wage Jihad against the Kuffar [non-believers].
> 
> "We are doing this in order to gain the pleasure of our Lord and Allah loves us to die and kill in his path.
> 
> ...





> "I participate within this blessed raid for - upon the enemies of blessed Islam, for several reasons.
> 
> 
> "I, Savant, have sacrificed my life cheaply, within the sake of Allah, not to save myself from a life of trials and tribulations but to fulfill a covenant and promise with Allah the almighty, and to make it Deen [religion or way of life] reign supreme.
> ...



here is the transcript of what the jury heard 


Do you want me to carry on citing sources?

Aldebaran, please go and look and read for yourself what the men said

and please stop misrepresenting me.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> There can be no discussion on the line "they cite Islam". It's a fact, they do it:



It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted. 
Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
There is none.
And none in the last list BK quoted.
Nothing.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Well, no language, actually...
> Might be people don't understand me
> 
> salaam.



True. I'm not understanding you atm, tbh.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted.
> Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
> There is none.
> 
> salaam.


They refer to Islam do they not? That is citing it.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

I mIght as well put the whole thing up, apologies for th elength but it seems to be the only way to get it through to Aldebaran what the men are saying

"I have been educated to a high standard and had it not been Allah had blessed me with this mission, I could have lived a life of ease.



> Video allegedly showing Waheed Zaman
> 
> "But instead chose to fight for the sake of Allah's Deen [his religion or way]. All of you so-called moderate Muslims, there's only one way in which to solve this crisis, the problems will not be solved by means of campaigning, big conferences, peaceful negotiations with the disbelievers.
> 
> ...


en educated to a high standard. I am old enough to make my own decisions."



> TANVEER HUSSAIN: "WORTH THE PRICE"
> 
> Mr Hussain, 27, is another of the eight men said to have recorded a suicide video:
> 
> ...





> ARAFAT WAHEED KHAN
> 
> The final defendant said to have recorded a video is Arafat Waheed Khan, 27, also of Walthamstow:
> 
> ...


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

I think froggie's approach was kinda pragmatic tbh


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> They refer to Islam do they not? That is citing it.


No, they don't. They refer to what they want to make of what they somehow came to think might be somewhere to be found in Islam. 
There are no such things to be found in Islam = they are not "citing Islam".
Inventions of the deluded mind are nothing else but that.

salaam.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted.
> Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
> There is none.
> And none in the last list BK quoted.
> Nothing



Yes there bloody is, for fucks sake.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> No, they don't. They refer to what they want to make of what they somehow came to think might be somewhere to be found in Islam.
> There are no such things to be found in Islam = they are not "citing Islam".
> Inventions of the deluded mind are nothing else but that.
> 
> salaam.


So they don't refer to Islam?!?

You can cite a quote "lay on Mc Duff" (Shakespear: MacBeth) or you can cite a play "I really liked the Scottish play myself" both are citing something. They clearly cite Islam as they do refer to it both explicitly and implicitly.

That it might be an unfair / unjustified citation is a different issue.
*
There is a lot of confusion here, it's root cause is your misunderstanding of what the word means.*


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> It is a fact - again - that they don't, anywhere in what is quoted.
> Where on earth do you see a citation of Islam in the things you quoted?
> There is none.
> And none in the last list BK quoted.
> ...



Take it up with them, not me, that they didn't cite surah and hadith and the Qur'an's specific texts and verses! That is a joke.

It is obvious that they are doing what they do in the name of Islam; to ''cite'' something in this context means to use it as justification. Perhaps this is a language issue as English is not your first language: citing sources in academia means to quote specific sources and perhaps this narrow technical definition is what you thought I meant. But in conversational English, like on this board, ''citing'' has a broader meaning. The meaning I used.

I _hope_ that this is about a misunderstood language point, not you trying to misrepresent me on purpose.

 We say '' he left early, citing as his reason the fact that he had to go to the dentist.

It's a different use of the word.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Yes there bloody is, for fucks sake.



No there isn't.

salaam.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> No there isn't.



I suggest you buy, then read, a dictionary.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran. Please read my last post. Where I explain to you that I think you have misunderstood the word cited and how we use it in conversational English.

 It is not the same as academic citation. See examples.


_
He left early, citing as his reason that he had to go to the dentist.

They made martyrdom videos, citing Islam and the suffering of the Ummah as their justification for attacking the Kaffar 
_


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Take it up with them, not me, that they didn't cite surah and hadith and the Qur'an's specific texts and verses! That is a joke.



The fact is that they would not be able to underscore any of their criminal rubbish with Quranic texts.



> It is obvious that they are doing what they do in the name of Islam;



Correction: All they do is making such a claim which is in fact only speaking for themselves, and which has no credibility to anyone even remotely informed on Islam.



> to ''cite'' something in this context means to use it as justification.



Not to me.



> Perhaps this is a language issue as English is not your first language: citing sources in academia means to quote specific sources and perhaps this narrow technical definition is what you thought I meant.



Yes.



> But in conversational English, like on this board, ''citing'' has a broader meaning. The meaning I used.



OK then. Discussion closed, I suppose. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
Thank you for the lesson in colloquial English.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I suggest you buy, then read, a dictionary.


Meh, online is good enough if it's used.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 16, 2008)

I'd give up BK, I get the impression he's being willfully ignorant as a strange way of defending a percived attack on Islam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

> Main Entry:
> cite
> Pronunciation:
> \ˈsīt\
> ...



 BK, I take it that 3 a: was the meaning you were using in this sense?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> OK then. Discussion closed, I suppose. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
> Thank you for the lesson in colloquial English.
> 
> salaam.




Good, glad we got there in the end.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Good, glad we got there in the end.


Well, I learn something new about the lanugage almost every day I read U75.
That is why it is somewhat addictive.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> OK then. Discussion closed, I suppose. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
> Thank you for the lesson in colloquial English.



This is not colloquial English, colloquial English is informal or casual and tends to mean spoken. This is not the case, it is in fact a very formal form of language and is used in legal functions where colloquial English is almost explicitly forbidden as it is too easily misunderstood.

Glad to help.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Ooops, shoulda done that earlier


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Ooops, shoulda done that earlier


I did


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I did



Ah, but did you do it like a proper 'I'm from a dictionary' stylee - eh? eh?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> This is not colloquial English, colloquial English is informal or casual and tends to mean spoken. This is not the case, it is in fact a very formal form of language and is used in legal functions where colloquial English is almost explicitly forbidden as it is too easily misunderstood.



That meaning of the word in legal context? Would be very odd for me to read.

salaam.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

cesare said:


> Ooops, shoulda done that earlier



This is nothing to what happened to me at US boards where I had absolutely no clue about writing this language, jumping in to see what it would give, while the US was in full glorification of Iraq invasion and "let's nuke the ME"  


I was virtually killed from the first second. No surprise I was the only Muslim posting there, let alone the only Middle Eastern/Arab. It was a bit adventurous.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> That meaning of the word in legal context? Would be very odd for me to read.
> 
> salaam.


It's one of them yes. It's a much more formal way of saying "refer" in this context, it's main use is to make someone sound more intelligent / authoritative.

In academia your references should cover author, book and page number, but you're still citing something if you just put the book in, you're just doing a crap job of it.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> It's one of them yes. It's a much more formal way of saying "refer" in this context, it's main use is to make someone sound more intelligent / authoritative.



"refer" would be for me correct wording in legal context. To use "cite" instead of "refer" would work very confusing.



> In academia your references should cover author, book and page number, but you're still citing something if you just put the book in, you're just doing a crap job of it.



You simply can't "just put the book in" in any academic work (let alone in a thesis, good for a big zero score) and citing is not the same as referring.

salaam.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

That's just it, it is


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 16, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> That's just it, it is



Maybe where you live. Not where I am 

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> This is nothing to what happened to me at US boards where I had absolutely no clue about writing this language, jumping in to see what it would give, while the US was in full glorification of Iraq invasion and "let's nuke the ME"
> 
> 
> I was virtually killed from the first second. No surprise I was the only Muslim posting there, let alone the only Middle Eastern/Arab. It was a bit adventurous.
> ...



I can imagine that!

The other thing is, the more one appears and feels confident at being reasonably fluent in a language, sometimes the more likely it is that real annoyance/impatience can occur. One party thinks they're absolutely sure about the meaning, and the other party thinks that they're misunderstanding the explanation offered on purpose 

It is useful to know why you get so annoyed on principle about why we term them 'Islamist/Islamicist terrorists' though.


----------



## cesare (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Maybe where you live. Not where I am
> 
> salaam.



Well you're here at the moment


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 16, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Maybe where you live. Not where I am
> 
> salaam.


Nope, if you're using English then it's the same there. If you're just thinking of the nearest translation into your first language then that's a different matter.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> No. You insist they are "quoting Islam". Where? Why do you take the things you quoted about their sayings as "Islam"?
> 
> So? Because they say it, it is? Where on earth do you get this?
> 
> ...



But all this is just about the point we reached on the Jehovah's Witnesses thread.  You state that your humane and modest view of Islam is the true one, they, having led different lives end up with a different one and different sets of justifications.  There isn't any way of proving, of arbitrating between belief systems - thats all they are beliefs, beliefs of people in different circumstances and with different motivations.  There is no external point of reference.  And that applies to all belief systems, not just Islam.   Their version might be twisted and murderous, but its just another take on a non-existent god.

but then i'm derailing the thread..


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Oh, don't worry, it's already gone off-road, taken a cross country hike and has been reported missing to the coastguard


----------



## Wilf (Apr 17, 2008)

<gets tug and brings it back into the main shipping lane>

Be interesting to keep an eye on the relevant ucl webpage over the next few weeks.  Wonder if a certain name will quietly disappear?  They must be getting a bit edgy seeing all this being aired (aired somewhere, not suggesting they've got their eyes glued to urban ).  At the same time they know that any atttempts to get rid of this loon will result in tribunals and claims of martyrdom.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

They already hid the holocaust denial thread. In which numerous 9/11 site contributors contributed with enthusiasm.

None of them have distanced themselves from the 'holocaust denial' thing, they have just gone off at tangents, thrown around ludicrous accusations and abuse and straw men, accused people of being Nazis or whathave you or kept very quiet indeed,

 Unsurprisingly and unimpressively.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 17, 2008)

Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies. And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.

I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist. But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!


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## Y_I_Otter (Apr 17, 2008)

Jew-hater doesn't equal "nazi" all of the time, but I've yet to encounter a "Holocaust revisionist" who wasn't an antisemite.

Try this simple test: find a website or forum dedicated to promoting Holocaust revisionism that isn't tainted by antisemitica unrelated to the events of WWII. 

Good luck.


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## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)




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## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies. And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.
> 
> I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist. But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!



I really don't like the Witch Finder General aspect, but I don't even know where to start with what I find disturbing about this.

In your world, if people behave in a "bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered" way - whatever the content, what they say is OK? 

So if things are dressed up and presented in an acceptable manner, that makes those things OK? You'll entertain what people say, maybe take what they're saying on board, because of the manner of presentation?

Jazzz, there's some hateful things being said by some of the 'conspiracy theorists' and they sometimes later turn out to be holocaust deniers. The bright ones don't ever even out themselves. 

Do you apply the same level of alertedness and questioning to the people that you're spending so much time with? 

If we now seek to engage your attention in a different manner ... maybe agreeing with you for the most part, nice to you, make you feel comfortable ... will you entertain our nicely worded criticisms and ideologies quietly slipped in?

In a nutshell, what you've just said is that it doesn't matter what Kollerstrom has said or believes - you're more concerned with the reaction to it.


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## Yossarian (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles.



That's because those circles attract crazy obsessives like flies to shit.



Jazzz said:


> . Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!



Gas chambers? According your mild-mannered buddy, those were just harmless shower rooms.

Watching a Jew making comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis to defend a holocaust-denying nutcase is one of the saddest things I've ever seen on these boards...


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies. And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.
> 
> I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist. But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!



Words fail me


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## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies. And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.
> 
> I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist. But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!



muppet


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## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Puppet, more like


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Dear Jazz

Have you read what your friend Nick believes? What he writes? He doesn't keep his views to himself. And  I am not the only person involved with 7/7 that he has approached and tried to convert to his ridiculous theories. He harassed a man who had been caught up in the aldgate bombs on Monday; I saw it with my own eyes.

The reason I speak out against lies, Jazz, is because the truth is important.
A famous lie, the Protocols of the Elders of Zion was  - and still is - widely disseminated. Do you know who one of the most famous adherents of that lie was, Jazz? Do you know what he did, how he used the conspiracy theory to justify one of the worst genocides in history?   



> The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion
> by Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD
> 
> As surprising as it may sound, the only intentional mass extermination program in the concentration camps of WW2 was targeted at Germans. From April, 1945 five million Germans were rounded up after surrendering, and deliberately starved until well over one million had died, in French and American-run concentration camps[1] - an event soon erased from the history books. There was, in contrast, never a centrally-coordinated Nazi program of exterminating Jews in Germany. Lethal gas chambers did not function in German labour-camps, that's just an illusion. The traditional Holocaust story has developed out of rumours, misunderstandings, and wartime propaganda. From stories pre-dating the Second World War to the Nuremberg Trials which gave official sanction to the notion, to subsequent trials, books and films, we have had it imprinted on our collective psyche. In most of Europe now, it is a thoughtcrime to believe what you have just read, punishable by imprisonment, so think carefully before deciding to read on.





> The Gestapo and Zionists were collaborating in the late 30s because they had in this respect similar aims.





> With regard to the gas chambers, the almost endless procession of false witnesses and of falsified documents to which I have drawn the reader’s attention during this long study, proves, nevertheless, one thing: never at any moment did the responsible authorities of the Third Reich intend to order - or in fact order – the extermination of the Jews in this or any other manner



Nobody has said he should be hanged.

But he is what he is and he is working as a research fellow at a University.

He is citing his PhD when he writes this stuff. He admires Irving and others like him.

Do you still support what this man is and what he says and what he does?

I note not one conspiraloon has tried to deny what Kollerstrom believes.

All the 9/11 board have done is remove the evidence of the thread in which other posters discuss the holocaust - and deny it - making it members only.


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## tarannau (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. ...Sieg Heil!









Although, if I'm honest, this goes disturbingly beyond even the myopic dickhead stage.


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## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

BK, Jazzz has either read all that and it's OK with him. Or he's not read all that in which case he's not going to now.

I'm starting to think it's the former.


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## Belushi (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies. And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.
> 
> I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist. But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!



((nazis))


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

_Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles. _

And what do we know about people who like to question the holocaust? Deny the holocaust? They are without exception antisemitic. I challenge you to find me a holocaust dener who is not antisemitic.
 Why do you think holocaust-denial is looked upon with such revulsion?  That antisemitism is 'not uncommon' you admit- does that make it right?

_As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact._ 

Are you saying it is okay to lie about the fact that millions of people were exterminated?

_But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi._

Twisting it round so it is about me wanting to out people? What is worse, being a holocaust denier, working at a University, as a committed liar and antisemite, or people expressing revulsion at lies and anti semitic, holocaust-denial views on a bulletin board?

_Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that!_

Yes, this person said the holocaust was a lie. This person also said:


> The Gestapo and Zionists were collaborating in the late 30s because they had in this respect similar aims.



This person said that concentration camp survivors are false witnesses - liars. 


> With regard to the gas chambers, the almost endless procession of false witnesses



And he's _still_ at it - denying survivor testimony of recent atrocities and calling survivors liars to this day. Not only that, but he is writing to them, attempting to talk to them and visit , hassling them whilst they eat their lunch. Do you condone what he says and does, Jazzz?

_Well maybe not quite but close enough!_

What he has said, and written, he has said and written, under his own name, not a pseudonym, repeatedly and publicly, as a matter of record. There's not 'not quite' about it.

_That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit. _

If he didn't want people to know he was a holocaust denier, why is he writing essays about it citing his PhD under his real name? Would you rather we didn't discuss it?


_Maybe even they should be hanged?_

Because discussing holocaust deniers is the same as suggesting capital punishment for them, is it?
_After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided._
Nick seems to be freely writing about his views.
You seem to be freely expressing yours.
I seem to be freely expressing mine.
 But here's Nick on freedom of speech, after finding out that a school is teaching about the Holocaust

( writing on a White Supremacist site)



> According to my teenager's homework, it seems to be Holocaust week at school again, so all the non-Jewish kids will be learning the Jewish version of it. What do you do when a public institution teaches something is a fact that you believe is not a fact? Well, you can always call the teacher or write a letter, which will have no effect other than to get you a reputation as a dangerous nut. No school will change its policy on this because of any information you cite to them; even if they secretly agree with you, they do not have the courage.



_
 No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies _

Nick is advocating writing letters to a learning institution. I see other posters here have also suggested the same on here. After all, Nick is not posting anonymously on Stormfront - he is writing citing his PhD from a University where he is a research fellow. He is open about what he says. Does he seriously expect everyone to remain silent? Do you think remaining silent in the face of a monstrous antisemitic hateful lie is the right reaction?  Do you think silence is tacit consent or approval? Do the 'Truth Movement' not make great play of the right to challenge things they believe to be lies? Yet, you are advocating we do the opposite?



> And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt


 No Jazz, Hitler got his power from peddling lies about  Jewish people, spreading conspiracy theories about them, how they were liars and how 'Zionism' needed to be routed out.Hitler cited an antisemitic lie, a conspiracy theory  about Jews - the Protocols of the Elders of  Zion as his justification for genocide, Jazzz. Conspiracy theories can be dangerous.



> Hitler refers to the Protocols in Mein Kampf:
> 
> ... To what extent the whole existence of this people is based on a continuous lie is shown incomparably by the Protocols of the Wise Men of Zion, so infinitely hated by the Jews. They are based on a forgery, the Frankfurter Zeitung moans and screams once every week: the best proof that they are authentic. [...] the important thing is that with positively terrifying certainty they reveal the nature and activity of the Jewish people and expose their inner contexts as well as their ultimate final aims.[37]
> 
> Hitler endorsed it in his speeches from August 1921 on, and it was studied in German classrooms after the Nazis came to power. At the height of World War II, the Nazi Propaganda Minister Joseph Goebbels proclaimed: "The Zionist Protocols are as up-to-date today as they were the day they were first published."[22] In Norman Cohn's words, it served as the Nazis' "warrant for genocide".



_not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers._ Nick's beliefs are Hitler's beliefs, given new life after we fought a war to defeat the spread of them and their hateful consequences.  

 I do not defend hate-speech and lies as an absolute right. Not when history shows what comes of it.

_I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment_

I certainly question your judgement, yes.

_ But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. _

Look at his views, Jazzz. Look what he writes and what he says. He is a Holocaust-denier.  He is someone who denies genocide, harasses survivors of atrocities, is an anti semite and a liar and who posts on White Supremacist sites. And he is someone who is your friend, who you consider likeable?
His mannerisms apparently make his views all right?  


_
He's just a conspiracy theorist_
I disagree. I've read what he says and he's more than that. And he is a research fellow at a University, where one would think standards and truth are important. He does not keep his views to himself.  

_ But hey, why not string him up?_

No, let's not. Discussing his views is not stringing him up.


_ After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too- _
Yeah, actually, I do think they should be challenged. Because they are lies, and I think truth is important.

_they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog._

I see, nice misrepresentation and twisting of history there. Have you any idea of what went on? I suppose you just gulped down wholesale a false version of what happened by the perpetrators of that particular little campaign. Why am I not surprised?
_
Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!_
That last remark is beneath contempt.


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## pk (Apr 17, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I am wrestling with whether he is mentally ill or not. If he ( or Kollerstrom) is seriously mentally ill then I suppose I should not be using words like fruitbat about them, and should try to feel pity for them.



No, I disagree. Fuck him. Has he been sacked yet?


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## pk (Apr 17, 2008)

Frampton said:


> But drawing a line around free speech? Nah. Speech with lines around it is no longer free speech. As for grassing people up and seeking their dismissal.... we're straight back to the fear and terrors of a Marxist or Fascist state.
> 
> People are free to spout whatever gratuitous nonsense they want. If it's vicious then they must expect repercussions. I'm not into banning people. It's what we do when they are up on their soapbox that matters.



Kollerstrom's modus operandi IS vicious.

Badger Kitten has already outlined the tactics he and other cunts like this used in several 7/7 meetings, heckling survivors and calling them liars during public enquiries, sending hate mail, stalking, defaming...

So what repercussions would you suggest?

My thinking is that a nazi-supporting fruitloon should not be in a position of trust at a University, teaching people.

I would like to see him sacked. I would like to see him unemployable.


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## pk (Apr 17, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fela Fan is trying to derail it with a truly feeble straw man.



He's just upset because another of his heroes has turned out to be a nazi lunatic. Same as Jazzz.

Funny as fuck. Enough material to torment the sad cunts for months.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

You're wasting your time BK, he won't listen, he won't read or accept anything that dosen't backup his paranoid world view, it's tragic really.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Let's be accurate.

We don't know that he is teaching people.

 He has heckled and barracked and demanded the floor at a 7/7 book launch attended by maimed survivors, stating the bombers were 'innocent' and the bombs were 'sythetic terror'

It was another 9/11 truther, not him, who attempted to publish my home address, said my husband was an Israeli ( he's from Yorkshire)  said he was going to 'come round' and demand money back from me for my book, which Kollerstrom had previously called a 'work of fiction'. I reported this to the police who said they would come round immediately if this happened.

The hatemail  was/is anonymous. I don't know who sent it/sends it. Numerous people post abusive stuff to and about me, every time I say that conspiracy theories are toxic. I will keep saying that they are lies, because they are.

Kollerstrom writes and emails survivors and families and on Monday harangued a man from Aldgate at court who was at  his lunch break, because I saw him do it and the man was upset.

I don't advocate anything other than letting the Uni know so they can decide what is appropriate, providing links to what he writes, where he cites his PhD, and letting organisers know what he writes, when he is speaking there, so they can decide on a fully-informed basis. I absolutely do not advocate violence of any kind.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

As for Jazzz, he's been provided with the evidence, which he can choose to ignore and almost certainly will.

 I am wasting my time, so I am now going out.


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## Jazzz (Apr 17, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> _And what do we know about people who like to question the holocaust? Deny the holocaust? They are without exception antisemitic. I challenge you to find me a holocaust dener who is not antisemitic._


_

Well I don't think you would accept one because in your logic questioning aspects of WWII would be anti-semitic in itself.

Anyway in all my dealing with Kollerstrom (not too many, I'll admit) I never heard him mention the word 'Jew', certainly never say anything anti-semitic, and he just seems a bit of a bumbling old duffer who wouldn't mean anyone any harm whatsoever. And certainly no 'major player' in the 9/11 movement. I don't believe he is racist. If he's been posting on sites like stor*front though he is very silly, for sure._


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Anyway in all my dealing with Kollerstrom (not too many, I'll admit) I never heard him mention the word 'Jew', certainly never say anything anti-semitic, and he just seems a bit of a bumbling old duffer who wouldn't mean anyone any harm whatsoever.



Ah, he seemed OK to you, that invalidates all the nasty shit he's written elsewhere then.  Fucks sake. 



> If he's been posting on sites like stor*front though he is very silly, for sure.



You just can't admit to the truth can you, even when it's put right in front of you.

It's fucking pathetic.


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## baldrick (Apr 17, 2008)

A very silly, bumbling old duffer?

Are we reading the same things?

Why haven't you commented on what he has written?


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

Yes, I'm finding that very confusing as well baldrick.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

Maybe he didn't write those things at all, maybe it's all part of a clever ploy by _them_ to discredit the trooofers....


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## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I don't think you would accept one because in your logic questioning aspects of WWII would be anti-semitic in itself.
> 
> Anyway in all my dealing with Kollerstrom (not too many, I'll admit) I never heard him mention the word 'Jew', certainly never say anything anti-semitic, and he just seems a bit of a bumbling old duffer who wouldn't mean anyone any harm whatsoever. And certainly no 'major player' in the 9/11 movement. I don't believe he is racist. If he's been posting on sites like stor*front though he is very silly, for sure.



mat, you're just being a fucking dick. what exactly does the guy have to have done for you to renounce him and his crap? and for the upteenth time, _*no 'holocaust deniers' actually for one minute believe the holocaust didn't happen.*_ they all know only too well it did but they think it was _a good thing_ and would like to see it happen again. holocaust denial/historical revisionism is all about 'rehabilitating' fascism as the holocaust is a bit of an "image problem" for any latter-day nazis who wish to promote their agenda. an agenda anti-semitism is always fundamental to. 

and an agenda evidently held dear by this  'harmless...bumbling old duffer' whose defence you are leaping to.


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## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Maybe he didn't write those things at all, maybe it's all part of a clever ploy by _them_ to discredit the trooofers....



but who are _they?_ The Lizards...or THE JEWS ?

woops! silly me, they're the same thing of course...only some conspiraloons prefer to remain a bit coy and  metaphorical


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## Wilf (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> I really don't like the Witch Finder General aspect, but I don't even know where to start with what I find disturbing about this.
> 
> In your world, if people behave in a "bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered" way - whatever the content, what they say is OK?
> 
> ...



Nicely put.  On the Witchfinder bit i think there are some find distinctions to be made.  I'm perfectly happy about the 'outing' of a prominent 9/11er as a holocaust denial-er.  Its important to show what kind of people are coming out with this shite.  There's a slight distinction between that and _actively _trying to get him sacked.  If that's what happens over the general outing, I've no sympathy - it would be, after all, his own fault.  However trying to actively achieve that and justifying it along the lines that he 'teaches students' is less worthy IMO.

But, to Jazz: Cesare raises the key point.  I don't normally join in the personal abuse you get over your views.  But this is a real test for you.  You've been revealed as associating with someone who holds repellent views.  How you react says a lot about you.  Do you admit that this guy - who you might agree with on 9/11 - holds truly vile views - do you do the decent, difficult, honest thing?  Alternatively, do you play linguistic games, try and deflect it, minimise what the guy actually stands for?  Over to you.


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## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I don't advocate anything other than letting the Uni know so they can decide what is appropriate, providing links to what he writes, where he cites his PhD, and letting organisers know what he writes, when he is speaking there, so they can decide on a fully-informed basis.



Why on earth didn't you do that already?

salaam.


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## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> There's a slight distinction between that and _actively _trying to get him sacked.  If that's what happens over the general outing, I've no sympathy - it would be, after all, his own fault.  However trying to actively achieve that and justifying it along the lines that he 'teaches students' is less worthy IMO.



It is not only about "teaching students". It is far more about shameless abuse of his academic degree, letting it serve to underscore his revisionism. He should be exposed for this by all means possible.  

salaam.


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## Wilf (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> It is not only about "teaching students". It is far more about shameless abuse of his academic degree, letting it serve to underscore his revisionism. He should be exposed for this by all means possible.
> 
> salaam.



I very much agree that he should be exposed - should be exposed as a 9/11 er who is also homocaust denier.  Like I say, I'd have no sympathy at all if he ends up getting sacked as a result.  Its just that I'm less sure about a *direct*, active strategy of getting him sacked.  Like i say, fine distinctions.

There is though a bit of malevolent glee in me, waiting to see how ucl deal with this.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.



Bullshit, as I'm sure you're aware *if* you've actually read the thread properly.
What BK (and others) have spoken about is whether the person's employers are aware that he is using his position as an academic at their institution as a bolster to the veracity of his claims on subjects where those claims ignore the historical record, and whether they should be made aware. You yourself may or may not be aware that many academic institutions have contractual clauses that restrict their academics from using their positions to bolster their credibility, because it can reflect badly on the institution.


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## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

also the fact he _*is*_ 'an academic' by implication endows his vile ideas with a credibility and gravitas they wouldn't otherwise have if he was just an every-day conspiraloon on a forum. 

like jazzz


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I talk about what you quoted, claiming that is "Islam" and on top of it, it is "Islam" merely because those lunatics said these words.
> 
> salaam.



What she actually said was that some terrorists have "cited Islam". She doesn't mean that they've used a specific sura or similar to justify their actions, but that they've used their *interpretation* of Islam as a justification for their actions. 
I'm sure we're all aware of actions that have been justified by reference to a (deliberate or otherwise mis-reading of writ. This is merely one case among countless others were the mis-application of the *ideas* of a religion have been used to cause harm.


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## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> What she actually said was that some terrorists have "cited Islam". She doesn't mean that they've used a specific sura or similar to justify their actions, but that they've used their *interpretation* of Islam as a justification for their actions.



It was the use of the word "cited" that did it.
To me that has a different meaning than it seems to be able to get in English.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Dillinger - which uni was this, btw?


----------



## biff curtains (Apr 17, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> also the fact he _*is*_ 'an academic' by implication endows his vile ideas with a credibility and gravitas they wouldn't otherwise have if he was just an every-day conspiraloon on a forum.
> 
> like jazzz




To be fair, the purple gold thing should be enough by itself to discredit everything else he says.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Well I'll say this about the whole 'holocaust denial' thing. It's not uncommon for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in conspiracy theory circles.


It's not unusual for some aspects of the holocaust to be questioned in _academe_ by historians, the difference being that historians are (generally, with dishonourable exceptions) punctilious about sourcing credible primary and secondary supporting evidence for the answers they arrive at to these questions.


> As with many other aspects of history. Just about all of them, in fact. But what is palpable is the desire to 'out' someone as a nazi. Oh gosh, we don't get the chance to point the finger like that these days do we. Yes, this person said that! Well maybe not quite but close enough! That means they are nazi, they are evil, and we can put them in the stocks and pelt the fruit.


It doesn't mean that at all, it means that we should ask them to put up or shut up, and possibly request that they not used their academic credentials as a bolster to the credibility of claims they make in fields that diverge from their area of expertise.


> Maybe even they should be hanged? After all, freedom of speech doesn't apply to them - we just decided. No matter that 'freedom of speech' is an inalienable principle that means absolutely nothing if one picks and chooses where it applies.


I wasn't aware that "freedom of speech" was an "inalienable principle", but that it was a "right" contingent on how it's exercise affects others.


> And hitler got his power from this mentality, the witch-hunt - not those who would defend freedom of speech as an absolute against all-comers.


No he didn't.
Hitler "got his power" from cultivating Capital, moulding his pronouncements to appeal to the rural peasantry of the _lande_ to counterbalance the leftward voting habits of the urban-dwellers, and making grand but unkept promises about "job creation" for the urban poor, all underlain with a Judaeophobic and anti-Slavic current that also emphasised Germany's status as a "victim" of the Versailles treaty.
It was only *after* he (more or less) legitimately got elected as _Reichskanzler_ that he instituted his dictatorship and cultivated the *overt* scapegoating of "social others" as a way of both exercising and deriving power over the general populace. 


> I'm posting this while a bit drunk, probably against my better judgment. But I can promise this - Nick Kollerstrom, bumbling, slightly crazy, likeable, mild-mannered chap that he is, is no nazi. He's just a conspiracy theorist.


At the considerable risk of invoking Godwin's Law, that sounds like a fairly apt description of Heinrich Himmler too.  


> But hey, why not string him up? After all, we need to stamp on those conspiracy theorists too - they phoned up badger kitten, don'tchaknow, after she launched an public assault on them on her blog. Let's round them up and send them to the gas chambers! Sieg Heil!


Who wants to string him up? No-one.
Who wants to see whether his employers is happy to support his views? Plenty of people on this thread.

Seems perfectly fair to me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> To be fair, the purple gold thing should be enough by itself to discredit everything else he says.



Every time I read the words "purple gold" it makes me think of Lord Percy in Blackadder II and his alchemical experiments that produce a "nugget of purest green".


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> To be fair, the purple gold thing should be enough by itself to discredit everything else he says.



yea, but arguably, that is more a harmless eccentricity. he believes he can create 'purple gold'....i'm sure there are others who believe they 'speak to god' on sundays. i don't think people would be quite so bothered if there was some old fool getting in some collecge who believed he could create gold out of  Blue-tack, Cremola Foam, melted down Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle figures and a squirt of Sunny Delight .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> It was the use of the word "cited" that did it.
> To me that has a different meaning than it seems to be able to get in English.
> 
> salaam.



IMHO part of the problem proceeds from Americans using the term "cites" instead of "citations" when referencing sources.
See, I can find a way to blame the US for just about anything!


----------



## Frostys Lodger (Apr 17, 2008)

I would be less worried about some acedemic putting out this shite then the platform being given to Icke, Alex Jones and the like on the James Whale show on Talksport week in week out where they can reach a sizeable audience with seemingly no challenge whatsoever.


----------



## pk (Apr 17, 2008)

Frostys Lodger said:


> I would be less worried about some acedemic putting out this shite then the platform being given to Icke, Alex Jones and the like on the James Whale show on Talksport week in week out where they can reach a sizeable audience with seemingly no challenge whatsoever.



Aye... but let's face it - David Icke = antisemitic bonkers cunt, and Alex Jones is so full of shit it's widely believed he works for the FBI.


----------



## biff curtains (Apr 17, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Every time I read the words "purple gold" it makes me think of Lord Percy in Blackadder II and his alchemical experiments that produce a "nugget of purest green".



Yep.



> yea, but arguably, that is more a harmless eccentricity. he believes he can create 'purple gold'....i'm sure there are others who believe they 'speak to god' on sundays. i don't think people would be quite so bothered if there was some old fool getting in some collecge who believed he could create gold out of Blue-tack, Cremola Foam, melted down Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle figures and a squirt of Sunny Delight .



True.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 17, 2008)

Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -



you seen that footage Badger Kitten?

If only you spent more time actually wondering about what the hell is going on in the world, rather than attempting to attack the ones who are doing just that.


----------



## Spion (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Crafty bastards - 'prison camps' disguised as prisons 

What absolute cobblers. I could make a video like that tomorrow.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...





And that's your answer is it, when presented with clear evidence of just how vile your pal's view are? To attack me and change the subject? To post up a youtube video on a different subject? To refuse to look at the evidence presented of your mate's repellent views, views he attempts to bolster by citing his PhD? 

That's your best answer is it?

Absolutely pathetic.

What do you do apart from paste up lies on the internet, hang about with a holocaust denier who you call your 'friend', who you say you have no reason to doubt and 'know personally', and attack people when they challenge your lies? Oh, you play a mean jazz piano, apparently. Well, perhaps you should stick to that, if you find the challenges of the real world - such as your real friends real Nazi-apologist views and real survivor-bothering too real for you.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

<rhetorical question to Jazzz> Any views on your holocaust-denier pal's views or are you just going to carry on wriggling and changing the subject and posting excuses? </rhetorical question to Jazzz>


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz - I'm not a great follower of conspiracy theories but within 3 clicks I found this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Mental_Health_Act

and links to two far right groups, American Public Relations Forum and Friends of Liberty.

I'm struggling even more with this now.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You really are totally fucked - caught hanging around with a holocaust denier despite you posting up passport pictures of your family who died in what he denies happened. Claiming him as a friend, doing joint research with him, using him a source numerous times - all that now conveniently becomes him just being a bumbling fool who you hardly know. Throw as much sand in peoples eys as you like - you've been caught with your pants down. 

If your reputation was already low (and it was) you had a chance to redeem yourself with a timely public rejection of this freak and all he believes in - instead you decided to engage in the most desperate sort of smoke and mirrors, to try and hide it under the carpet and to shit on the principles of full discloure you try and beat others around th head with. 

You are despicable. I never thought i'd see you stoop so low despite warning you that you'd have to with the compmany you've been keeping. But here you are - you've proved me wrong. You sick fuck.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Surprise, surprise, Jazz, it's a load of bullshit lies.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Fucking hell, that Friends of Liberty (yeah, the FEMA one) site's got links to other far right shit too including Dr Menlo.

Christ Jazzz, what the fuck are you in to?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

Whatever he's into, you can bet  he won't be admitting he's into it. Even to himself.


----------



## Spion (Apr 17, 2008)

I think it's very likely, in fact almost certain, that all states have contingency plans for mass unrest. But I don't think that the cause of revealing the truth is helped by using emotive and sinister word-laden narration on top of footage that can be easily obtained. The existence of prisons only proves the existence of prisons, not their actual purpose. For that you'd need access to planning documents


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

hey jazzz, are you mates with this colourful (national socialist) eccentric too?

http://www.geocities.com/davidmyatt/ 

"I have denied and do deny the malicious stories about cat-strangling and harming animals and challenged to a duel anyone who spread such allegations—for I find these particular allegations, involving cruelty to animals, quite detestable, being, like Savitri Devi and Adolf Hitler, a person who loves and respects animals."


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

He'd gone Mulsim last i heard.

*Howls at the mooon*


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

((( Muslims))) that's all they need,
(if true & I hope not)


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

Someone finally embraced Islam but without giving me notice??

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Someone finally embraced Islam but without giving me notice??
> 
> salaam.





According to wiki, in April 2006 the Times said that he believed:



> "The pure authentic Islam of the revival, which recognises practical jihad as a duty, is the only force that is capable of fighting and destroying the dishonour, the arrogance, the materialism of the West ... For the West, nothing is sacred, except perhaps Zionists, Zionism, the hoax of the so-called Holocaust, and the idols which the West and its lackeys worship, or pretend to worship, such as democracy... Jihad is our duty. If nationalists, or some of them, desire to aid us, to help us, they can do the right thing, the honourable thing, and convert, revert, to Islam — accepting the superiority of Islam over and above each and every way of the West."


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

You mean that superb nonsense was said/written by that lunatic who needs to wave with an academic title to give his nonsense an aura of credibility?

salaam.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> According to wiki, in April 2006 the Times said that he believed:



Totally fucking Upminster.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Can you stay off this thread please aledbran?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Can you stay off this thread please aledbran?



mmm... No.

Aldebaran.PhD


salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> You mean that superb nonsense was said/written by that lunatic who needs to wave with an academic title to give his nonsense an aura of credibility?
> 
> salaam.



No, different person


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Totally fucking Upminster.



Innit.

Very educational thread (for me at least)


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 17, 2008)

Spion said:


> I think it's very likely, in fact almost certain, that all states have contingency plans for mass unrest. But I don't think that the cause of revealing the truth is helped by using emotive and sinister word-laden narration on top of footage that can be easily obtained. The existence of prisons only proves the existence of prisons, not their actual purpose. For that you'd need access to planning documents



Well, it's easy enough to put this camps business to rest with a simple nostrum that's served deniers well since Rassinier: they're merely "transit camps" and the "gas chambers" are only there for disease-prevention. End of.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 17, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Surprise, surprise, Jazz, it's a load of bullshit lies.



I'm sorry but linking to some rubbish article that may seem convenient doesn't really reassure. Note the author's delightful comment on Hurrican Katrina:

"I’m not saying how FEMA did it was correct but given the warning timeframe the population had, more of them should have left the area prior to Katrina then really did. Anyone with approx 72 hours of warning could have easily been in another state even if they had to use their child’s toy wagon to pull their supplies or at the least been to high ground."

Marvellous.

The camps have been springing up all over the US. 600 of them!







Look! What are these coffins planned for?






But no! Let me get this straight. We are not to fear FEMA or the USG, even though they only have to declare martial law, and there we are in a police state, and they have all the camps ready, 600 of them, complete with terrifying turnstiles, furnaces, and watchtowers (as you could see on the video, should you be bothered to watch). No! The threat comes from the likes of Nick Kollerstrom and his purple gold and crop circles. 

source

Heaven help us


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 17, 2008)

This excuses denying the holocaust?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Ask your friend Nick -maybe they don't exist? Have you asked him about this? He's obv an expert on camps?

Or have you just hidden it under the carpet?

Patheric deflection attempt btw


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

*First they came for the holocaust deniers*


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

http://www***.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2007/190307Gay.htm

http://www***.prisonplanet.com/playboy_and_the_homo_sexual_revolution.html


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

http://***forum.prisonplanet.com/index.php?topic=32214.360

No wonder Jazzz is trying to deflect this conversation.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Innit.
> 
> Very educational thread (for me at least)



Me to

Sorry to derail further with this concentration camp red hearing but a few things come to mind without doing any research of any kind.

 I don’t find it completely implausible that somewhere in the bowls of the pentagon there is some plans regarding mass interment of US citizens (they did it with Japanese Americans in WWII after all) I rather get the impression that there are offices full of people in the pentagon who plan for all most any eventuality.

However construction of purpose built prison camps implies that the US government intends to internment masses of its population at some point I can’t imagine any government would plan this, what would they have to gain?

That video you posted was 13 years old, just how much internment has taken place in the US in the last 13 years? Do you believe that the US government is keeping hundreds of internment camps ready just in case? Governments in the past have proved quite capable of making do with ad hoc facilities if needed, sports stadiums for example.

None of it really applies if you are a poor black male as prison will more than likely be a fact of life for you anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

There's some genuinely astonishing stuff from truthers here - who knew what lengths they'd be preapared to go to to cover up the horrible truth. Here was a chance to make a few things clear  for all to see - but now, censorship, hidden threads etc is the way to go

Quick before they hide this one too


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Look! What are these coffins planned for?



What coffins?


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Prison Planet links to a site called Dragonslayer:



> Peter J. Peters is the pastor of the LaPorte Church of Christ in LaPorte, Colorado, and is evangelistic head of Scriptures for America Ministries Worldwide, an international outreach ministry dedicated to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to revealing to the Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, and kindred peoples of the world their true Biblical identity.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 17, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> What coffins?



 Oh yeah I meant to ask about that as well.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> There's some genuinely astonishing stuff from truthers here - who knew what lengths they'd be preapared to go to to cover up the horrible truth. Here was a chance to make a few things clear  for all to see - but now, censorship, hidden threads etc is the way to go
> 
> Quick before they hide this one too




Good grief


----------



## axon (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> The camps have been springing up all over the US. 600 of them!


Why don't you start another thread _[which can be binned/not binned as moderators see fit_ where people can discuss your lunacy about US concentration camps and stick to views on holocaust deniers on this thread?

Edited to clairfy.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

axon said:


> Why don't you start another thread where people can discuss your lunacy about US concentration camps and stick to views on holocaust deniers on this thread?


no, why don't we stick to the subject of this thread and  Jazz _*doesn't*_ start a thread about some conspiracy theory or other....


----------



## quarsan (Apr 17, 2008)

If anyone's interested Bridget Dunne has replied to the Blairwatch post and I've replied to her.
http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz and Darios on that Lapdancers thread


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 17, 2008)

Umm those watch towers are part of a yank rifle range.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

quarsan said:


> If anyone's interested Bridget Dunne has replied to the Blairwatch post and I've replied to her.
> http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014



Getting

Warning: Table 'system' was not locked with LOCK TABLES query: SELECT * FROM system WHERE type = 'theme' in /mounted-storage/home61c/sub001/sc13882-HCOS/blairwatch56/includes/database.mysql.inc on line 172


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

I had to scroll down past that, butchers


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Prison Planet also links to a site called Another Untold Story:



> Also be careful of the snakes that baptize in some other name than Jesus Christ, such as “Yashuha, Whoaweah,” or whatever nonsensical name they come up with that’s not found in the Bible. Believe the Gospel and obey it. The Gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ.



'Baal Worship' -  'all seeing one world order' ... symbol of that illuminated pyramid again


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> no, why don't we stick to the subject of this thread and  Jazz _*doesn't*_ start a thread about some conspiracy theory or other....



I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't. If that gets in the way of your witch-hunt (which I know you have a penchant for Mrs M) then you'll have to forgive me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't. If that gets in the way of your witch-hunt (which I know you have a penchant for Mrs M) then you'll have to forgive me.



Let's get the one that your friends denying out of the way first - we can save rthe world on another thread eh?

So, any movement?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't. If that gets in the way of your witch-hunt (which I know you have a penchant for Mrs M) then you'll have to forgive me.



Isn't part of "holocausts repeating themselves" the denial that the one it's repeating ever even happened? You seem remarkably unconcerned about that. Are you?


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Prison Planet links to a site called Dragonslayer:
> 
> 
> 
> > Peter J. Peters is the pastor of the LaPorte Church of Christ in LaPorte, Colorado, and is evangelistic head of Scriptures for America Ministries Worldwide, an international outreach ministry dedicated to preaching the Gospel of Jesus Christ and to revealing to the Anglo-Saxon, Germanic, and kindred peoples of the world their true Biblical identity.



Oh blimey, look what I just found (link broken)

http://www***.adl.org/Learn/ext_us/..._SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=8



> Conclusion
> 
> For Peters, battling the Jewish plot for world domination and vaunting the superiority of right-believing white Christians is an all-encompassing spiritual commitment. As his success in organizing other Identity and far-right activists; in disseminating hundreds of sermons, tracts and articles and in maintaining a regular media presence all indicate, he has been able to connect with a substantial audience. Given his ability to refine his message as circumstances demand, he seems likely to remain a significant presence on the far right.


----------



## brixtonvilla (Apr 17, 2008)

Without wishing to derail too much (watching Jazzz floundering is too much fun), here's another belter from the same board. Madeleine McCann is now part of a conspiracy!

http://www .nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=11449


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You pathetic cunt.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Shit

Azrael23 - 23, white supremacist number symbol innit


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Nah 23 is just a general loon number, not necc white racist.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

Is it cesare? I thought it was from that stupid 1970s hippyshit conspiracy book about the Illuminati


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Is it cesare? I thought it was from that stupid 1970s hippyshit conspiracy book about the Illuminati



That's my understanding of it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Oh blimey, look what I just found (link broken)
> 
> http://www***.adl.org/Learn/ext_us/..._SubCat=Extremism_in_America&xpicked=2&item=8



prisonplanet and the whole scene is chock full of this stuff from the black helicopter crowd, which is why this whole thing doesn't come as a huge surprise.

What does come as a surprise is the reluctance on many parts to disown those concerned. There are a few people who do take up the "but was there _really_ a holocaust, or is it just what THEY want us to think?" line out of "truth-seeking", but unless they have some ulterior motive they very quickly conclude "oh, yeah, actually the Nazis did kill a shitload of people, it's incredibly well documented, I feel a bit embarrassed now".

But perhaps someone espousing neo-Nazi propaganda is just one of those little details that isn't terribly important when you're considering the _broader picture_. I mean, it couldn't possibly have any relevance to anything else they say could it? Holocaust denial, eh, it's just a bit of a quirk.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> The camps have been springing up all over the US. 600 of them!



Try to look for silver linings. Presumably there'll be swimming pools, amateur theatrics, free lectures and camp orchestras. All for the best, really.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 17, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Look! What are these coffins planned for?



Am I the only person who thinks they look more like portable toilets?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> prisonplanet and the whole scene is chock full of this stuff from the black helicopter crowd, which is why this whole thing doesn't come as a huge surprise.
> 
> What does come as a surprise is the reluctance on many parts to disown those concerned. There are a few people who do take up the "but was there _really_ a holocaust, or is it just what THEY want us to think?" line out of "truth-seeking", but unless they have some ulterior motive they very quickly conclude "oh, yeah, actually the Nazis did kill a shitload of people, it's incredibly well documented, I feel a bit embarrassed now".



It's not about whether these fellow travellers believe that the holocaust happened or not. It's about their reaction to being freinds with deniers. If jazzz's reaction anything to go by, well i'm not convinced by the good ones never mind the bad ones. If it stands as jazz reactions are, then i think that they're complicit in the dissemination of this stuff. 

He could take a chomsky line that i don't believe in this stuff but i respect the loons rights to believe it. That i could buy - but to attack people pointing out what his person believes as nazis and people helping to make another holocaust..well fuck him. He's in it now.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nah 23 is just a general loon number, not necc white racist.





Mrs Magpie said:


> Is it cesare? I thought it was from that stupid 1970s hippyshit conspiracy book about the Illuminati



It might well be, or both, dual meaning maybe. The US adl site ^ has a database of symbols and 23 is listed. 23rd letter of the alphabet W for white. It might be more of an american thing though.

They also had a feathered swastika that looked like that one that we had a thread about (the logo). Never seen a feathered version before.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> It might well be, or both, dual meaning maybe. The US adl site ^ has a database of symbols and 23 is listed. 23rd letter of the alphabet W for white. It might be more of an american thing though.
> 
> They also had a feathered swastika that looked like that one that we had a thread about (the logo). Never seen a feathered version before.



The ADL site has the anarchist symbol too - seriously, they're right wing loons. Ignore them. They make Searchlight look normal.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Is it cesare? I thought it was from that stupid 1970s hippyshit conspiracy book about the Illuminati



Yep, from William Burroughs originally.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's not about whether these fellow travellers believe that the holocaust happened or not. It's about their reaction to being freinds with deniers.



Yes, sorry, that's what I mean, I may not be being clear enough here. The point being that if I, conspiraloon A, see conspiraloon B espousing holocaust denial on a regular basis, it can't be excused by the usual "oh well maybe he's keeping an open mind" thing, because you either grow out of it in a pretty damn short space of time or you've got ulterior motives.

It is of course an unpleasant experience to find out that actually somebody you thought was pretty normal and reliable believes that sort of shit, and I'd look for ways out myself - did he really say it? surely he must have meant something else? - but trying to justify or minimise the statements... well. Er.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The ADL site has the anarchist symbol too - seriously, they're right wing loons. Ignore them. They make Searchlight look normal.



I know that focal point publications don't like them, but then they wouldn't, would they 

Anti Defamation League - are we talking about the same lot?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> I know that focal point publications don't like them, but then they wouldn't, would they
> 
> Anti Defamation League - are we talking about the same lot?



ADL - serial smearers and liars, collelctes of duff info on and about anti-fascists and others and in the pocket of any state body who'll pay them. Sorry. Fund them.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

So, Jazzz, one simple question - are you going to comment on what this guy has said/written?

Yes/no will do for now.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> ADL - serial smearers and liars, collelctes of duff info on and about anti-fascists and others and in the pocket of any state body who'll pay them. Sorry. Fund them.



Ah, cheers. I knew about Searchlight but not them. Though I did break the link just in case.

-----------------------------------------------------------

After seeing what I have today (and I didn't post the weirdest spookiest occult stuff), I'm having great difficulty in separating 'good' from 'bad' conspiracy theorists if they're immersing themselves in this stuff all the time.

Sorry fm, wasn't being rude in not replying but the conversation had moved on.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Oh, another thing I came across was NG and the conspiracists having the same views on Peak Oil - zionists innit.

This all looks like an unholy alliance with anti-zionism providing a convenient common ground, but scratch the surface ...


----------



## smokedout (Apr 17, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Yep, from William Burroughs originally.



robert anton wilson and bob shea in the illuminati trilogy

which was actually a satire on conspiracy theory, unfortunately a lot of ct-ers didnt realise that and saw it as the truth


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

smokedout said:


> which was actually a satire on conspiracy theory, unfortunately a lot of ct-ers didnt realise that and saw it as the truth



It never fails to amaze me when conspiratwats quote it at you as a "source" for their bonkers bullshit


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

smokedout said:


> robert anton wilson and bob shea in the illuminati trilogy
> 
> which was actually a satire on conspiracy theory, unfortunately a lot of ct-ers didnt realise that and saw it as the truth



Yeah, that's right I think.

Darios wrote a lengthy eulogy on the Robert Anton Wilson just died thread.


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Nah 23 is just a general loon number, not necc white racist.



yea, no racist connotationsthat i have ever heard of and even those US groups (Church of the creator/christian identity etc) that use the letter 'W' as their symbol don't seem to have ever used the #23 that i've seen*. it was Burroughs who first propogated the number 23, illuminati and TOPY type geeks following suit. 

basically just a harmless, if wearisome,  obsession really 

*not to say that might not have started though.


----------



## quarsan (Apr 17, 2008)

Well Nick has just commented on our post.
http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 17, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Am I the only person who thinks they look more like portable toilets?



that's what i thought. 

my sister has a restaurant near where they have T-In The Park festival in perthshire, scotland.  

those 'coffins' look like the row of portaloos they had lined up one year when i drove by it, and the 'observation turrets' look like those they have in the deer park near-by for folk to watch and photograph the deer from.  there's an episode of that 'two fat ladies' cooks show where they go there for venison. it might be on youtube, i honestly can't be bothered to look.

alternatively the 'coffins' may be bales of hay which are covered with black plastic. you see that all the time in the country. 

_*bloody coffins and gun turrets for fucks'sake !!!???*_


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

smokedout said:


> robert anton wilson and bob shea in the illuminati trilogy
> 
> which was actually a satire on conspiracy theory, unfortunately a lot of ct-ers didnt realise that and saw it as the truth


Ah right, I didn't know it was a satire because the only people who've quoted it at me were conspiracy theorists...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

quarsan said:


> Well Nick has just commented on our post.
> http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014




Am i dooing something wrong - i an only see your post at the end.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

me too butchers. I hit refresh just in case but can see nowt.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 17, 2008)

quarsan said:


> Well Nick has just commented on our post.
> http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014



And he says


> Hi, I note you seem to
> On April 17th, 2008 Nick K. (not verified) says:
> 
> 
> ...



So, Jazzz, any response?

Or are you just going to launch into an attack on me and move the goal posts again?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Not verfied , so hang back. 

Each of those footnotes btw, are to nazis like fred leucther or similiar. They're not credible sources.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Ah right, I didn't know it was a satire because the only people who've quoted it at me were conspiracy theorists...




It's worth a read, though I haven't looked at it for a few years now (lent it to my dad and haven't retrieved it). I was more interested in the source material and finding out more about that e.g. gnosticism, rosicrucians etc.

But yeah, some people take it on face value, and the ones that do set the old alarm bells ringing bigtime.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

> the proposition that: no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber... I’m proud to be associated with it



So, what exactly are your views on this man Jazzz?



e2a - Not verified, hmmmm, what chance is there that it's someone stirring things up a bit?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

I remember when Hugo Gryn confronted David Irving (or is it Irvine...can't say I give the man much thought) when he said the holocaust was a myth. Hugo Gryn wiped the floor with him...wish I could find the transcript...it was on Radio 4.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember when Hugo Gryn confronted David Irving (or is it Irvine...can't say I give the man much thought) when he said the holocaust was a myth. Hugo Gryn wiped the floor with him...wish I could find the transcript...it was on Radio 4.




Oddly enough David Irving is one of the truth-seekers this bloke has recommended, Zundel being another. Here's YOUR truth-seekers jazzz.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I remember when Hugo Gryn confronted David Irving (or is it Irvine...can't say I give the man much thought) when he said the holocaust was a myth. Hugo Gryn wiped the floor with him...wish I could find the transcript...it was on Radio 4.



Irving with a g. Another 'academic'

Tbh, it's not the all out 'outings' and the like that bother me (though they're enlightening to some extent) - from my POV it's almost as if the big 'outings' are there for people to dive in on. 

It's the quiet insidious stuff that bothers me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Irving with a g. Another 'academic'
> 
> Tbh, it's not the all out 'outings' and the like that bother me (though they're enlightening to some extent) - from my POV it's almost as if the big 'outings' are there for people to dive in on.
> 
> It's the quiet insidious stuff that bothers me.



I've heard from a lot people who should know that Irving is/was the best archivist historian there is. He's just a racist goon as well.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

smokedout said:


> robert anton wilson and bob shea in the illuminati trilogy



They got it from Burroughs.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It never fails to amaze me when conspiratwats quote it at you as a "source" for their bonkers bullshit



Half the shit Jazzz comes out with is straight from those books!


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah, that's right I think.
> 
> Darios wrote a lengthy eulogy on the Robert Anton Wilson just died thread.



Not surprising, Anton Wilson was a right wing libertarian like Darios.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 17, 2008)

I still can't find any reference or transcript...I think it was on 'The Moral Maze' when it was good, ie when Hugo Gryn was alive. Basically Irving spouted some denial crap about Auschwitz and Hugo Gryn pointed out he was in Auschwitz and the rest of his family died there....can't remember exactly the exchange but Irving was trounced. Gryn said things along the lines of 'look me in the eye when you say that lie'...he might even have called Irving a shit, I know I was cheering so I missed bits.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

http://***educate-yourself.org/

^ This is quite an interesting site that I discovered today

The links at the top make it easy to reference


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> http://***educate-yourself.org/


I've seen that site before, it's a one stop shop for idiots


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I've seen that site before, it's a one stop shop for idiots



Bookmarked is it?


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I've heard from a lot people who should know that Irving is/was the best archivist historian there is. He's just a racist goon as well.



I'd never heard of him before this thread  Then I looked at the wiki entry (yeah, I know, but as an overview) and that was illuminating (lol)


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I've seen that site before, it's a one stop shop for idiots



Absolutely 

But it's an easier reference source than Prison Plant if you're trying to compare ideologies (is that the right word?) iyswim. No overt propoganda and links diverting attention.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> I'd never heard of him before this thread  Then I looked at the wiki entry (yeah, I know, but as an overview) and that was illuminating (lol)



It mentions the Gable entry i note. Oddly enough Irvings legal notes ended up in the hands of the far right. Somehow.


----------



## cesare (Apr 17, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Not surprising, Anton Wilson was a right wing libertarian like Darios.



Ah. It's weird innit how these alarm bells can go off in your own mind even when they're being overtly all rational and reasonable and that. See Dilute Micro for another example - on a recent thread I lost patience and did that whole 'fuck off fash' (literally) twice. No reaction from him/her. They just repeated the same taxonomy style post, and quietly go on posting as they have done for years.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Prison Planet links to a site called Dragonslayer:



yeah, pete peters, the christian identity twat. 

he often gets accused of being a jew by people who don't think he's going far enough ...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 17, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Bookmarked is it?



edit, fuck it, can't even be arsed, I'm going to bed.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 17, 2008)

Have you a problem with obvious jokes officer?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 17, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yea, no racist connotationsthat i have ever heard of and even those US groups (Church of the creator/christian identity etc) that use the letter 'W' as their symbol don't seem to have ever used the #23 that i've seen*. it was Burroughs who first propogated the number 23, illuminati and TOPY type geeks following suit.
> 
> basically just a harmless, if wearisome,  obsession really
> 
> *not to say that might not have started though.



The World Church of the Creator is hilarious with their doctrine of "salubrious living". 

They don't believe in God so they're not the same as Christian Identity but they're equally crazy, if not more so. The "Creator" stuff refers to the idea that the "white race" is the only race which has a "creative spirit" and so should therefore worship itself ... 

You're supposed to have baths/take showers in bottled water because the Jews have contaminated the water supply with all their horrible Jewish chemicals, and you're also supposed to live on a completely vegan diet...


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 17, 2008)

cesare said:


> Ah. It's weird innit how these alarm bells can go off in your own mind even when they're being overtly all rational and reasonable and that. See Dilute Micro for another example - on a recent thread I lost patience and did that whole 'fuck off fash' (literally) twice. No reaction from him/her. They just repeated the same taxonomy style post, and quietly go on posting as they have done for years.



He considers himself an "anarcho-capitalist" but is reluctant to discuss the contradictions inherent is such a description!


----------



## the Magus (Apr 17, 2008)

.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It mentions the Gable entry i note. Oddly enough Irvings legal notes ended up in the hands of the far right. Somehow.



I just ended up in a morass there, of focal point publications. They is doing the Internets win thing, innit


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> He considers himself an "anarcho-capitalist" but is reluctant to discuss the contradictions inherent is such a description!



Darios? Yeah, obvious. From the 'anarcho-capitalist let's laugh at it' He's never denied otherwise. But read his posting history from the start. It doesn't take that long.

Dilute Micro? Heh, her/his stuff is covertly hardcore


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't. If that gets in the way of your witch-hunt (which I know you have a penchant for Mrs M) then you'll have to forgive me.



Great find Badger Kitten. How did I miss this thread! 

So Jazzz let me this clear you're showing your concern for holocausts by;

A) defending a holocaust denier as a "harmless bumbling man". 

B) spread lurid and baseless claims about imaginary death camps. 

Congratulations Jazzz, I'm reclassifying you, you've been downgraded from "delusional moron", to "utter scum". 

A man who touts his dead Grandmothers passport as proof David Icke isn't an anti semite, and now tries to "poo poo" the facts about one of his ilk as a witch hunt. 

Fucking contemptable. 

Would someone kindly quote this post so Jazzz can read my feelings about him being a worthless waste of skin.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

We like him 8den, have met him, know him. That's why the angst re the Witch Finder General stuff.

We're* having a hard time with this.





* well me specifically, but I don't think I'm alone


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

And you're far too fucking self satisfied and congratulatory 8den, you fucking creep


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Can 8den leave this thread alone please. We wouldn't want his swollen swinging dick getting in the way. I deal in facts buster!I 've stomped truthers up and down the world don't make me put my foot up you ad hiniem arse did iot ever go to your head? 

That's what we don't want. People been here longer than you nursing a few things.

edite: Oh god, then he really does mentions every point that's already been made. Bravo sir. Bravo. That's where you'll end up.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Can 8den leave this thread alone please. We wouldn't want his swollen swinging dick getting in the way. I deal in facts buster!I 've stomped truthers up and down the world don't make me put my foot up you ad hiniem arse did iot ever go to your head?
> 
> That's what we don't want. People been here longer than you nursing a few things.
> 
> Oh god, then he mentions evey point that's already been made. Bravo sir. Bravo. That's where you'll end up.



A mate of mine lost her brother in the south tower. Truthers upset her to a degree that she cannot even deal with them. 

And I do deal in facts, I've also pointed out to Jazzz that one of his truther heroes hangs out with former members of the Waffen SS. Another fact Jazzz likes to ignore. 

So why don't you piss off with your thread derailing vendetta that you drag up again. 

cesare, sorry Jazzz is a lost cause, he will not face up the the odious creeps he associates with.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

8den said:


> A mate of mine lost her brother in the south tower. Truthers upset her to a degree that she cannot even deal with them.
> 
> And I do deal in facts, I've also pointed out to Jazzz that one of his truther heroes hangs out with former members of the Waffen SS. Another fact Jazzz likes to ignore.
> 
> ...



Sorry, what on earth does that add to my ask that you keep your size 2 boots off this thread?

Oh well done btw, you pointed out what the rests of us made clear to to him 3 years before you joined the board. 

Thread derailing? By suggesting that your brand of worthless shouting at someone has got zero results? NO thank you, i've destroyed jazz countless times already. No one is waiting on you to do your super-hero role again. Put your pants back on and _go away._


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

i Am 8den Behold My Posts On Here And That...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

I hope we are all wearing our anti-Zionist pants today.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, what on earth does that add to my ask that you keep your size 2 boots off this thread?



Because you don't get to tell me where I can and can't post you fucking nazi.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

8den, have you been keeping track of the thread?


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> NO thank you, i've destroyed jazz countless times already.



So why bother again?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Oh, look everyone

UCL has a department of holocaust studies.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

8den said:


> So why bother again?



Why? because new info has come out? Because i want to? You're the one claiming to have booted truthers up and down the internet then coming out with stuff that's already been asked/done/mentioned a fair number of times on this thread Do yourself and the rest of us a favour if you're going to try and intervene (and i would have thought your experience as the number-one truther hunter of all time would have led you this obvious conclusion already, apparently not though), Familiarise yourself with the material. Read the thread.


----------



## Kizmet (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> NO thank you, i've destroyed jazz countless times already.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

John Klier's dead http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0709/07092405 they should have kept that page of yours up to date BK!

Andrew Leak

George Paizis' publications


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

I just read his obit, googling him.

Asro3 'Nick Kollerstrom' has just replied on my site, once again, denying the holocaust.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

Do you think it's him or a shit-stirrer, BK?


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

It somehow didn't surprise me that UCL have a department for holocaust studies tbh, BK. When I was idly looking at the archives here for the 'conspiraloonacy' threads, I came across that one that Dillinger started about the link to Academia - which is why I asked him which Uni it related to (on the off chance that he was reading this thread).


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Kizmet said:


>




Familairise yourself with the material son-of-jesus. I was parodying 8den.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

I would have liked to meet John Klier


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Not surprising, Anton Wilson was a right wing libertarian like Darios.



bit of a derail but i wouldnt say his politics were that defined

its a long time since ive read him and remember thinking he was quie naive when he spoke about politics and at times leaned in both directions

in short he should have stuck to the gags, cos he is a funny writer


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Do you think it's him or a shit-stirrer, BK?



It's definitely him. I know because he pressed his email address on the survivor from Aldgate when he went up to him at the court as he ate his lunch in the canteen, and the Aldgate survivor gave him his email right at the start of the conversation  - before he realised he was a loon. That detail about getting the man's email made it into the comment. It's him. He really believes it.

The fact that I think he may be mentally ill is the only thing holding me back from alerting the Uni. 

Or media, for that matter.

It is so stupid to write this stuff citing your PhD and using your own name on a public forum, that I think he has psychiatric issues.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

It's a conundrum - I think the Uni need to know, because whatever is going on here they have a duty of care to him as well as to other students  - and to protect themselves and their reputation.

What do you think?


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

BK, if he's mentally ill then he needs help anyway if he isn't already getting it. Plus - so what? There are plenty of mentally ill people whose behaviour doesn't manifest in this fashion, and conversely, this behaviour shouldn't be associated with mental ill health.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

Either way, he's not doing his employers reputation any favours. If he's mentally ill he needs help, if he isn't mentally ill, he's appalling and also somewhat stupid not to realise that his actions might not go down well with the university.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> BK, if he's mentally ill then he needs help anyway if he isn't already getting it. Plus - so what? There are plenty of mentally ill people whose behaviour doesn't manifest in this fashion, and conversely, this behaviour shouldn't be associated with mental ill health.



My concern about his being mentally ill is not because he's expressing these views, but the _way_ he's expressing them, and his inappropriate behaviour, iyswim.

I think you and Mrs M are right. Anyone else got a view?


----------



## rekil (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Can 8den leave this thread alone please. We wouldn't want his swollen swinging dick getting in the way. I deal in facts buster!I 've stomped truthers up and down the world don't make me put my foot up you ad hiniem arse did iot ever go to your head?
> 
> That's what we don't want. People been here longer than you nursing a few things.
> 
> edite: Oh god, then he really does mentions every point that's already been made. Bravo sir. Bravo. That's where you'll end up.


At least he appears to know who he's blabbering at this time.


----------



## Kizmet (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Familairise yourself with the material son-of-jesus. I was parodying 8den.



I know. But it was one of those beautiful and rare occasions when the satiricist embodies the thing he satires.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

I see that FJL popped up on that blair watch blog. I didn't realise she was still about


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Oh yeah, she's been leaving dozens of comments on my blog, which is particularly stupid as she 
a) has a restraining order preventing her form doing this, breach of which can lead to 5 years in jail
b) She's in court in May appealing her sentence

 I just delete them, out of pity


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The fact that I think he may be mentally ill is the only thing holding me back from alerting the Uni.
> 
> Or media, for that matter.



*Please do it now! Today. This hour.*



> It is so stupid to write this stuff citing your PhD and using your own name on a public forum, that I think he has psychiatric issues.



No it isn't stupid, it is a calculated move to impress the gullible. 
I'm would surely be tempted to come to your blog or where ever that man posts/writes to give him what he deserves, or to contact the university myself, were it not that I can hardly claim to know he is indeed that person posting/writing this.
_What are you waiting for?_ Writing about this on U75 or a blog is not going to have any effect on this creature.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Someone should do it, but it might be better coming from an organisation/group rather than an individual. 

BK has already experienced a considerable amount of real life backlash in respect of this type of thing.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

It might be best to go to George Paizis direct. I've been doing a bit of reading and it seems he's quite politically active, one example being that he started the UCL Stop The War Coalition.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> It somehow didn't surprise me that UCL have a department for holocaust studies tbh, BK. When I was idly looking at the archives here for the 'conspiraloonacy' threads, I came across that one that Dillinger started about the link to Academia - which is why I asked him which Uni it related to (on the off chance that he was reading this thread).



You mean me right?

(is there another post I should have read? I have only read the first page and this page)

The uni THAT thread refers too is Keele University.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> You mean me right?
> 
> (is there another post I should have read? I have only read the first page and this page)
> 
> The uni THAT thread refers too is Keele University.



Yes, I did mean you, cheers for replying. I linked to your OP in the archives re Conspiraloons and link to Academia.

You might find this thread interesting D, especially in context of the one about 'Nothing' in the philosophy forum, and your own experiences.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

done


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

smokedout said:


> done



Did you send that via email, or just post it on your blog?

Did you provide links?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

via email with links


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

> I am away from UCL until Monday 21 April. In my absence please email
> Ruth Metcalfe, r.metcalfe@ucl.ac.uk.



I'll wait


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

You could email George Paizis as well?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

I made two posts on the 911 truth foums yesterday. Neither offensive or sweary in the slightest. Both concerned the subject of this thread. Both have been deleted and my account banned. I simply asked why holocaust denial threads are now moved to a 'hidden' area, who can view that hidden area and if the mod who made that new rule (Gosling) still linked to the Protocols of the elders of zion on his own website. 

It's unravelling boys and girls.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/index.php


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Interesting. Glad I saved that thread now.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> You could email George Paizis as well?



just forwarded it to him

g.paizis@ucl.ac.uk btw


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

I wonder what they'll do.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

smokedout said:


> done



Nice one.


----------



## quarsan (Apr 18, 2008)

*On a lighter note*

Thought you'd like this. Click for emphatic embigification.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Good grief



Fucker attributed Santayana's maxim to Churchill too!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't.


Holocausts aren't events that carry within them their own causation, so can't "repeat themselves", they're the result of the effects of disparate causes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Is it cesare? I thought it was from that stupid 1970s hippyshit conspiracy book about the Illuminati


Was originally from the _Principia Discordia_ (a 19*60*s hippyshit book), which R.A. Wilson drew on for his and Robert Shea's "Illuminatus" trilogy.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

What is the student newspaper/magazine at UCL? Does anyone know?

Perhaps they'd like to do a bit of investigative journalism...

Thanks Johnny.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Is anyone apart from me, butchers and Dillinger reading the 'Nothing' thread in the philosophy forum?


----------



## brixtonvilla (Apr 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> What is the student newspaper/magazine at UCL? Does anyone know?
> 
> Perhaps they'd like to do a bit of investigative journalism...
> 
> Thanks Johnny.



London Student is the newspaper for the whole of the university. Their website is down at the moment, but you can email the editor here:

editor@london-student.net 

Pi is the name of UCL's own magazine. Here's their website:

http://www.pimatrix.co.uk/


----------



## Frampton (Apr 18, 2008)

I don't know how you guys work for a living and keep up the pace of this thread.

Grassing someone up so he loses his livlehood because he's spouting nonsense? Bloody disgraceful.

And where next? There are teachers pontificating on Islamic terrorism, preachers glorifying Biblical massacres, apologists aplenty for Marxist atrocities.....

Free Speech matters.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Exactly. Free speech matters, and that applies to us too.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Exactly. Standing up against extremism  - not just for Muslims.

Members of my family died to protect Europe from the hateful idealogy of the Nazis. How sickening to see it resurfacing now, and trying to climb into the clothes of 'free speech' to spread its message of hate.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

brixtonvilla said:


> London Student is the newspaper for the whole of the university. Their website is down at the moment, but you can email the editor here:
> 
> editor@london-student.net
> 
> ...



Cheers.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Free speech is not harmed by this nutter being booted. 

Fuck free speech anyway, it's a liberal get out clause that mistakes ideal situations for real situations.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 18, 2008)

Free speech isn't absolute, nor should it be. It requires a certain responsibility to be telling the truth; or at the very least, not knowingly lying, as this fellow appears to be.


----------



## Fullyplumped (Apr 18, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Grassing someone up so he loses his livlehood because he's spouting nonsense? Bloody disgraceful.


"Grassing" is what you do if you are telling tales or trying to get someone into trouble. 

But this isn't "grassing", it's disclosing abuse. Telling an academic institution that one of their staff may be a holocaust denier and racist who harasses the victims of crime and is trading on his relationship with the institution is a positive public service. It is for the University to decide what they think of the information, to judge for themselves whether he's just "spouting nonsense," and to investigate for themselves whether they want to address their employee's conduct. I for one am concerned to think that the University may be unaware of their associate's activities, and would welcome their being put right.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Btw smokedout, I thought that letter was really well worded. As neutral as possible, no hyperbole etc.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

cesare said:


> Is anyone apart from me, butchers and Dillinger reading the 'Nothing' thread in the philosophy forum?



<looks>

29 pages, and it was started by max_freakout 

Care to provide a brief summary before I waste an evening on it?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 18, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> <looks>
> 
> 29 pages, and it was started by max_freakout
> 
> Care to provide a brief summary before I waste an evening on it?


Q: Nothing matters, cos when you're tripping, any fuckin thing could be any other fuckin thing, right?

A: Well that's plainly bullsiht. Stand infront of an express train and convince it that it doesn't exist.

Suplementary A: You fucking hippy.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> <looks>
> 
> 29 pages, and it was started by max_freakout
> 
> Care to provide a brief summary before I waste an evening on it?



Yeah, the drugs kidz are being convinced by a nutter that specialises in 'ego death' (and also, seemingly, holocaust denial/revisionist shit) that they can dismiss matters of the past because they can't be proved etc.

Edit: You might want to skip to today's postings with Crispy's summary as background)


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

ello Crispy


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Q: Nothing matters, cos when you're tripping, any fuckin thing could be any other fuckin thing, right?
> 
> A: Well that's plainly bullsiht. Stand infront of an express train and convince it that it doesn't exist.
> 
> Suplementary A: You fucking hippy.





cesare said:


> Yeah, the drugs kidz are being convinced by a nutter that specialises in 'ego death' (and also, seemingly, holocaust denial/revisionist shit) that they can dismiss matters of the past because they can't be proved etc.
> 
> Edit: You might want to skip to today's postings with Crispy's summary as background)



Right, that's saved me an hour or so then


----------



## Crispy (Apr 18, 2008)

L
O


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2008)

I've no real problem if people on this site get him sacked.  My slight twist is that this should get as much _general _airing as possilbe about the issue itself - that a 9/11er is also holocaust denier - less sure about specific attempts to force ucl's hand (though, _really _not worried if he does get booted out TBH).

At the same time, there's some liberal guff going on about this being a _university_.  Seems to be a mix of 'will nobody think of the children' and some weird assumption that universities are committed to 'truth'.  They are just big corporate employers who will make a pragmatic/panicky decision to get rid of him if the publicity gets bad (and they think they can get away with it).  No different to if he worked anywhere else.  If you want to get him sacked, just say so.  Like i say, he deserves what he gets, but lets not dress it up as anything else.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

i couldnt give a flying fuck if he gets sacked


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Man has no shame, this is what he left on my site today



> astro3 said...
> 
> May I have a right of reply?
> Most of your viewers may share your own knee-jerk response of ‘Holocaust denier =Nazi= anti-Semitism,’ with the accompanying hate and rage; and this is the one any only topic in our culture where everyone knows they are supposed to believe it but no-one ever gets to hear what the evidence is supposed to be, and one gathers it would be very ethically damnable to inquire about it. For the one or two who wish to look into the subject and dare I say question it, permit me to recommend perusing ‘Dissecting the Holocaust’ by twenty-odd different authors which is the modern work on the subject: www.  vho.org/GB/Books/dth/
> ...


I told him to piss off. Edit: loon links broken


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2008)

smokedout said:


> i couldnt give a flying fuck if he gets sacked



me neither, i just have a micro qualm about the way it is being justified


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

I'm personally concerned about it being a university for 4 reasons (a) opinion forming in the y00t who are gradually further and further temporally away from the effects of overt facism e.g. holocaust (b) increasing rise in this in Academia in the first place (c) signs of this linking in with other 'academics' influencing the y00t particularly in the drug culture/psychedelic scene maaaan; and (4) abuse of power.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> I've no real problem if people on this site get him sacked.  My slight twist is that this should get as much _general _airing as possilbe about the issue itself - that a 9/11er is also holocaust denier - less sure about specific attempts to force ucl's hand (though, _really _not worried if he does get booted out TBH).



im inclined to agree tbh, but the fact he works for UCL is likely to give this story far more prominance then if he worked in a chip shop


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Especially as they have a Department of Holocaust Studies.

Like I said - he's not pratting away on the Stormunddrang boards under the pseudonym 'Zionist-hatah', ( or astro3 for that matter) he's writing as Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD on sites that get thousands of hits a day


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> he's not pratting away on the Stormunddrang boards under the pseudonym 'Zionist-hatah', ( or astro3 for that matter) he's writing as Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom, PhD on sites that get thousands of hits a day



Exactly, he's put his head above the parapet, he can hardly complain when people take shots at him.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Members of my family died to protect Europe from the hateful idealogy of the Nazis. How sickening to see it resurfacing now, and trying to climb into the clothes of 'free speech' to spread its message of hate.


...and members of my husband's family died in Poland, his uncle in the camps. Luckily his father escaped from the back of a truck and was hidden by monks. They weren't Jewish, but Poles were considered 'untermensch' too.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

If I were UCL, I'd consider organising a series of talks with holocaust survivors present and recording them an that.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> badgerkitten said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh, and I'm only alive, and Jewish in case you didn't know, BK, because my great-grandfather got out in time. He had the foresight to see what was happening before it was too late. 

Nick K is no anti-semite. He is not 'resurfacing' the ideology of the nazis and I'm sure he finds it utterly objectionable. There is no 'message of hate' there. 

If someone was to question the number of Native Americans killed during Wild West times, what would that make them?

If someone was to question the plight of the Aborigines during the British invasion of Australia, what would that make them?

Mistaken, maybe, but not necessarily evil.

I'm sure we could think of many examples. 

Yes, I'm sure that many real anti-semites will question the holocaust to seek to minimise the horror caused by the nazi regime. However, that doesn't mean that those questioning the holocaust are anti-semitic, that is a grave error of logic.

If Nick K. is questioning aspects of the story it's because he genuinely believes they are questionable, and while we have freedom of thought and speech I don't have a problem with it. He isn't questioning that Jews died in vast numbers, in horrible circumstances.

Sorry to not be jumping on the bandwagon of hysteria.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh, and I'm only alive, and Jewish in case you didn't know, BK, because my great-grandfather got out in time. He had the foresight to see what was happening before it was too late.
> 
> Nick K is no anti-semite. He is not 'resurfacing' the ideology of the nazis and I'm sure he finds it utterly objectionable. There is no 'message of hate' there.
> 
> ...






			
				Kollerstrom said:
			
		

> The Gestapo and Zionists were collaborating in the late 30s because they had in this respect similar aims







			
				Kollerstrom said:
			
		

> You are quite right to call me a ‘denier’ in that I deny that anyone ever put Jews into gas chambers. That didn’t happen, its not part of the historical record. There are no documents, no photographs, no physical traces or remains, no post-mortem diagnoses of deaths by cyanide poisoning: there are only stories. In all the Nazi documentation, the ‘Final solution’ always meant the export of Jews, Eastwards, it never had a lethal meaning



He is an anti-Semite. He is questioning that Jews died in vast numbers in horrible circumstances. I am more than sorry that you are still denying it. He has said it. We have showed you the links.

More than sorry.


Nothing, no conspiracy theory, no political ideology, unevidenced, unsupported,  is worth denying the deaths, and the suffering of those whose DNA sings in your body, the history you will pass on to your children. 

Not just your fellow-humans experiences, but your family's truth.

Wake the fuck up.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh, and I'm only alive, and Jewish in case you didn't know, BK, because my great-grandfather got out in time. He had the foresight to see what was happening before it was too late.
> 
> Nick K is no anti-semite. He is not 'resurfacing' the ideology of the nazis and I'm sure he finds it utterly objectionable. There is no 'message of hate' there.
> 
> ...



I don't notice JC2 (by way of example) jumping up to negate the recent discovery of mass children graves in Canada by saying that it didn't happen; a la Kollerstrom's version of Auschwitz:



> Let us hope the schoolchildren visitors are properly taught about the elegant swimming-pool at Auschwitz, built by the inmates, who would sunbathe there on Saturday and Sunday afternoons while watching the water-polo matches; and shown the paintings from its art class, which still exist; and told about the camp library which had some forty-five thousand volumes for inmates to choose from, plus a range of periodicals; and the six camp orchestras at Auschwitz/Birkenau, its the theatrical performances, including a children’s opera, the weekly camp cinema, and even the special brothel established there. Let’s hope they are shown postcards written from Auschwitz, some of which still exist, where the postman would collect the mail twice-weekly



The plight of "Native Americans" & "aborigines" aren't being dismissed and negated. Sure, there's some red faces and backward justification - but no-one's saying that it didn't happen at all. And anyone that does pop up to say it didn't happen gets laughed at or shredded - with contempt. 

You and your ilk are contemptuous.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

And contemptible.

You are _Jewish_ Jazzz.



What the _fuck_? What the fucking fuck are you fucking doing with these people? 
Millions fucking dead, and you side with these fucks who deny it?

 And if the dead were any race, any religion, I would still weep, but what the fucking fuck are you fucking playng at?

 Is anything worth this?
 Wake the fuck up. Please. Please. Please.


We have had enough tangled limbs and screaming.  We should not dishonour those parents and children and lovers and workers and colleagues so.
 eloi eloi lama sabachthani  

yet you do, and for what?

An idea, an ideology. One not even proved, given no credibility



A peck of nothing, nothing at all.

Shame.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> If Nick K. is questioning aspects of the story it's because he genuinely believes they are questionable... He isn't questioning that Jews died in vast numbers, in horrible circumstances



You haven't even fucking read what he's said, have you?




> I don't have a problem with it



Not a lot more to be said then is there?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

I doubt he could bear to, and look his family photos in the eye.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Read it.
www.   davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15930


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

But he won't.


It makes me want to weep.

“I am constantly amazed by man's inhumanity to man."”


 Primo Levi 

Your friend calls him a false witness, Jazzz.


----------



## krow (Apr 18, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> But this isn't "grassing", it's disclosing abuse. Telling an academic institution that one of their staff may be a holocaust denier and racist who harasses the victims of crime and is trading on his relationship with the institution is a positive public service.



Is it slander though?


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> If someone was to question the number of Native Americans killed during Wild West times, what would that make them?



Your friend isn't quibbling about numbers, he's questioning the nature of the whole 'Final Solution' enterprise in the face of mountains of evidence. 

To match that to your crap analogy of the Wild West, I'd say that anyone who tried to question that a whole bunch of Native Americans were deliberately killed for the purposes of American expansion to the West was pretty stupid and was deliberately misinterpreting things for their own dodgy purposes.

'Jazzz is deluded' isn't exactly a newsflash to anybody who reads your threads but your defense of Kollenstrom is nudging you over the line from 'oddball' to 'nutter', IMO.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 18, 2008)

krow said:


> Is it slander though?


As far as I can tell, all allegations so far have been backed up by statements in the public domain. Others have better knowledge of the law than me, but afaik, there's no libel/slander here


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

krow said:


> Is it slander though?



Well, no. He said what he said. Publicly.

Meanwhile 6m people were murdered.
* Fact,*and* fact.* No false claims


> In law, defamation (also called vilification, slander, and libel) is the communication of a statement that makes a false claim, expressively stated or implied to be factual, that may harm the reputation of an individual, business, product, group, government or nation. Most jurisdictions allow legal actions, civil and/or criminal, to deter various kinds of defamation and retaliate against groundless criticism. Related to defamation is public disclosure of private facts arises where one person reveals information which is not of public concern, and the release of which would offend a reasonable person.[1] "Unlike libel or slander, truth is not a defense for invasion of privacy."[2]


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

I can't bear this...Jazz, how can you agree with this man who says it didn't happen?

...you make accusations of a bandwagon of hysteria. I'm not hysterical. I'm numb.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> 'Jazzz is deluded' isn't exactly a newsflash to anybody who reads your threads but your defense of Kollenstrom is nudging you over the line from 'oddball' to 'nutter', IMO.



No, not a nutter. He's actively colluding.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I can't bear this...Jazz, how can you agree with this man who says it didn't happen?
> 
> ...you make accusations of a bandwagon of hysteria. I'm not hysterical. I'm numb.



I can't get my head around the fact that the nice bloke I met at Glastonbury, sat and chatted with, had a beer with, can be this fucking stupid.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

I've never even met him but I have met enough people who have met him to be biting the inside of my cheek with frustration.


How monstrous must the lie be before it becomes so big that you can shrug it off as part of a game you play, a position you hold, a space you occupy because it makes you feel good to stand in it?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 18, 2008)

He witters on about lack of "doumentation". It's well-established by the Nazis' own transport records that something in the order of 1.1 million more people entered Auschwitz-Birkenau than are accounted for. The Nazis, renowned for their meticulous record-keeping with regard to the movement of Jews stop keeping records there. Very suspicious. And that's only one of the Aktion Reinhard camps. The thing that these Hitler apologists fail to offer, while they're busy "questioning", is an alternate explanation for what happened to all those people. 

In denier-world anything is possible, unless they deem it impossible on the flimsiest of evidence. All victim eyewitnesses are lying. All perpetrators' confessions were extracted by torture (nevermind that when they were freed from prison and had no need to continue to "toe the establishment line", none of them recanted. Not one). That alone should put into question deniers' claims, if not also their motivation.


----------



## cesare (Apr 18, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I can't get my head around the fact that the nice bloke I met at Glastonbury, sat and chatted with, had a beer with, can be this fucking stupid.




Yeah and I have as well, at Ed's birthday thing year thing before last. He had a little puppet thing that he was entertaining folks with, sociable and quietly sweet and charming, he was lovely. 

We didn't talk about world views though. 

I *want* to think that he's stupid.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

I really like him in real life as long as we don't discuss vaccines, conspiracy theories etc. He also plays the piano most wonderfully.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

So did  HITLER


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 18, 2008)

Hitler had no musical talent at all. He did do amateurish watercolours though. Churchill was a better painter however.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I can't bear this...Jazz, how can you agree with this man who says it didn't happen?
> 
> ...you make accusations of a bandwagon of hysteria. I'm not hysterical. I'm numb.



I'm not agreeing with him, let's make that quite clear.

What I what I know about Nick K is that he is no anti-semite. He is a conspiracy theorist.

I am placed in the awkward position of having to comment on someone that I know (although I knew nothing of his interest in WWII). Now if I didn't know him, and quite liked the fellow there'd be nothing making me defend him against this accusation, and for all I would know it could be true. However, I'd be a pretty crap bloke if I didn't speak up for people I know when they need it. And having spent some time with Nick K I've never seen the slightest hint of anti-semitism from him and that charge just doesn't fit with the person I know.

What I 'don't have a problem with' is someone genuinely stating what they believe, however wrong that may be. What I very much DO have a problem with is people wanting laws to suppress challenging viewpoints, again, _however wrong_. I need hardly point out that that is the way that fascist regimes gain hold of a compliant populace. The way to combat wrong arguments is not by outlawing them. It is with openness. I would like to think that that applies to WWII as much as anywhere else, and that the information there will speak for itself.

Having said that, I'm very disappointed that he's gone off on this, because I don't think it does anyone any favours. Certainly not the 9/11 Truth Movement. It's a highly emotional, loaded topic, and what to gain?


**********



Badger Kitten said:


> Well, no. He said what he said. Publicly.
> 
> Meanwhile 6m people were murdered.
> * Fact,*and* fact.* No false claims



... you see, this is the kind of hysteria I am talking about. A quick search of wikipedia, which BK didn't even bother to do before making her emphatic pronouncements:



> The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed.


 source


----------



## smokedout (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> ... you see, this is the kind of hysteria I am talking about. A quick search of wikipedia, which BK didn't even bother to do before making her emphatic pronouncements:



you think condemnation of the holocaust is hysteria

you stupid, stupid fuckwit


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Oh, you know what Jazz?
If it had only been 4.8 million people dead, choked, raped murdered, sick to death, that would have been fine?

To deny?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

fuck off.

And yes, you can cite that as a fucking genuine source


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 18, 2008)

Crispy said:


> As far as I can tell, all allegations so far have been backed up by statements in the public domain. Others have better knowledge of the law than me, but afaik, there's no libel/slander here



Exactly. All what is done is reporting what he  brought it in the public domain himself.

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

The expression of fuck off, not the fucking number is the source. 

Bleeds into one.
Bleeds into one.

 One people, one number, one event, denied. If you are NK.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> fuck off.
> 
> And yes, you can cite that as a fucking genuine source



Calm down!

You stated it was a 'fact' that 6 million Jews died. Yet there is no fact of the sort. What we have are estimates.

You are absolutely not going down the correct moral path by making stuff up like that, because it seems expedient. If you want to be on the side of truth, don't fabricate.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> What I what I know about Nick K is that he is no anti-semite. He is a conspiracy theorist.



Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory that claims Jews invented the "Holohoax" to elicit public sympathy for their own nefarious ends. In what way is that _not_ antisemitic?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Calm down!
> 
> You stated it was a 'fact' that 6 million Jews died. Yet there is no fact of the sort. What we have are estimates.
> 
> You are absolutely not going down the correct moral path by making stuff up like that, because it seems expedient. If you want to be on the side of truth, don't fabricate.



If you're reduced to picking on points like this you really are beyond help.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 18, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> He witters on about lack of "doumentation". It's well-established by the Nazis' own transport records that something in the order of 1.1 million more people entered Auschwitz-Birkenau than are accounted for.



I knew a man (he died some time ago), a friend of my mother's family, who as political prisoner and because he was fluent in German was put to work in the camp's administration. Hence had to put down arrivals, deaths, living. 

This individual abusing his academic title to saw confusion and arguing against what can't be denied should better take a first year's history course. 

salaam.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Calm down!
> 
> You stated it was a 'fact' that 6 million Jews died. Yet there is no fact of the sort. What we have are estimates.
> 
> You are absolutely not going down the correct moral path by making stuff up like that, because it seems expedient. If you want to be on the side of truth, don't fabricate.



Are you still defending this bloke then jazzz? After (presumably) reading what he has to say? On what grounds? Free spech?  Fine, but that means a commitment from you that he is a negationist, that he is a holocaust denier. Do we have that? Is that your position, that he is a holocaust denier but that denial is his right? Let's be clear here.


----------



## quarsan (Apr 18, 2008)

_He isn't questioning that Jews died in vast numbers, in horrible circumstances._

He is doing precisely that. 



> The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed.



Nick is saying the figure is precisely ZERO. Everyone else understands why there can never be a precise figure but the evidence all points to around 5.5 - 6 million Jews were murdered.

The holocaust is the most studied and documented event in history. There are thousands of witnesses, from the designers of the camps, the schedulers of the one-way transportation, to those who rounded Jews up, those who performed the selections, those who put them in the chambers, those who put in the gas and those who disposed of the bodies.

The documentary evidence is overwhelming with literally millions of documents that show every stage of the holocaust. There are no gaps.

For Nick's research to be valid then tens of thousands of people, from all nationalities across Europe and beyond must have prearranged to lie and not only lie, but to lie in detail, to tell the same lie from   The Baltic to the Mediterranean.

For Nick's research to be valid millions of documents would have needed to be forged from 1933 to 1945, often in the battle theatre. Whole transport systems must have been put in place for no reason, Whole battalions formed to do nothing and so on and on and on.

For Nick's research to be valid many Nazis must have been persuaded to concoct the holocaust at the time it was being committed to the end of the war and beyond. 

That's just a couple of the basics, but the weight of evidence, the time period and the geographic spread of the holocaust is so enormous that, when faced with someone who denies it all, one must ask 'Is he mad or bad?'

Given the weight of the evidence, one can only surmise that there must be some ulterior motive or cause for people to dogmatically deny the holocaust. It may be anti-semitism, hatred of Israel or that denial and conspiracy fulfills some inner psychological need.

You are a simpler case, you're clearly an idiot.


----------



## MikeMcc (Apr 18, 2008)

Should force all deniers to walk around Bergen-Belsen and see the mass graves with the signs saying how many are buried in each, many, many thousands.  In the museum the photos and newsreels of the time tell the story easily.  No survivor of Belsen had been there longer than 8 months, most 3-4 months.

I've also been to Oradeur-sur-Glane, another place that spooked the hell out of me.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Holocaust denial is a conspiracy theory that claims Jews invented the "Holohoax" to elicit public sympathy for their own nefarious ends. In what way is that _not_ antisemitic?



Is it anti-American for me to suggest that 9/11 was an inside job? Let's note that many Americans think just that.

Of course, I am not saying that because I think 9/11 was an inside job I am in any way a holocaust revisionist. I am just pointing out that accusing an elite is not the same as accusing the people.


----------



## Red O (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz quotes Wikipedia:



> The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed.



as some sort of intellectual justification for doubting the Holocaust. The _very next sentence_ is: 



> The figure most commonly used is the six million cited by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official.


.
HTH.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz - Do you accept that Nicholas Kollerstrom is a holcaust denier?

Yes/No


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Three possible answers jazzz:

a) he's not a holocuast denier
b) he is, it's his right
c) he is right to deny the holocaust

Time to pick one i think.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

quarsan said:


> _He isn't questioning that Jews died in vast numbers, in horrible circumstances._
> 
> He is doing precisely that.
> 
> ...


It's funny how we have 'facts' from Badger Kitten that are not facts, and accusations of 'idiocy' from you when you haven't even read the comments that you are reciting back to me.

Nick has not said the figure is 'precisely ZERO' - you just assumed that. He said the total mortality of Jews during WWII is one and a quarter million of which four hundred and fifty thousand died in the labour camps. Now while that certainly is low compared to the accepted sources, it is still a vast amount of human suffering.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> It's funny how we have 'facts' from Badger Kitten that are not facts, and accusations of 'idiocy' from you when you haven't even read the comments that you are reciting back to me.
> 
> Nick has not said the figure is precisely ZERO - he said the total mortality of Jews during WWII is one and a quarter million of which four hundred and fifty thousand died in the labour camps. Now while that certainly is low compared to the accepted sources, it is still a vast amount of human suffering.



You lept over my question jazz whilst replying to the one before and the one after. Have a go at it now old chap.

(Your own use of facts on that post has been blown away already)


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I need hardly point out that that is the way that fascist regimes gain hold of a compliant populace.



It's useful idiots like you who help gain fascists power Jazzz.  Idiots like you who help spread their lies and distortions.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Red O said:


> Jazzz quotes Wikipedia:
> 
> as some sort of intellectual justification for doubting the Holocaust. The _very next sentence_ is:
> 
> ...


Oh fuck off! I am not 'doubting the holocaust'. I am doubting 'facts' that are not facts.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> If you want to be on the side of truth, don't fabricate.




Yeah, don' t fabricate
Tell your lying friend.

Tell yourself.

Do you, Jazzz, jump which way? Time for answers. 

BK: The holocaust happened.
NK: The holocaust didn't. 

Your call.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh fuck off! I am not 'doubting the holocaust'. I am doubting 'facts' that are not facts.



You're colluding with fascists.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh fuck off! I am not 'doubting the holocaust'. I am doubting 'facts' that are not facts.



One more. Any chance of an answer. I even wrote it out in handy form so no one can get confused.

Regarding your friend NK's views:

a) he's not a holocuast denier
b) he is, it's his right
c) he is right to deny the holocaust

Time to pick one i think.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> You lept over my question jazz whilst replying to the one before and the one after. Have a go at it now old chap.
> 
> (Your own use of facts on that post has been blown away already)



Oh right, so when I take a few moments to construct a reply, I'm 'leaping over' your post that hits in the interim? I'm supposed to reply to you before posts before yours?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 18, 2008)

quarsan, I see you are in Belgium. 
Did you see that documentary on Canvas  "Le destin des Nazis"  about the research of Simon Wiesenthal and  Beate and Serge Klarsfeld? Among all the sickening fragments showing torture and murder and the testimony of a prisoner who recalled how by lack of enough Zyclon B children were thrown in the ovens alive, there was a fragment that haunts me, showing Mengele torturing a naked child.
I bet the deniers would claim that was also tricked, showing Mengele with a doll equipped with a technology more advanced than is possible even today, making it acting and screaming like real, living tortured child. 

salaam.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh right, so when I take a few moments to construct a reply, I'm 'leaping over' your post that hits in the interim? I'm supposed to reply to you before posts before yours?



How long does it take you to type "a", "b" or "c"?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh right, so when I take a few moments to construct a reply, I'm 'leaping over' your post that hits in the interim? I'm supposed to reply to you before posts before yours?


Well you're busy replying to all manner of posts after mine. But if the answer is forthccoming then fine. Let's have it.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Do you think millions of people were killed by Nazis in WW2, 

yes

 or 

no?


----------



## liampreston (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz, I think there is a simple question with 3 choices a few messages above you need to answer.

I have often read your posts on here over the years, and taken what you say with the usual balance of interest and bemusement. However the latter stages of this thread seem to show you in a very different light. I am confused as to why you suddenly seem to be even questioning the basic historical facts of the Holocaust .  Like you, I champion freedom of speech. But some of your recent posts in this thread make me wonder if you have indeed thought carefully about your views and opinions, and your decision to post them in public.

I wonder if you would not be better off spending some time looking into exactly what it is you are currently saying.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> *I'm not agreeing with him, let's make that quite clear*.
> 
> What I what I know about Nick K is that he is no anti-semite. He is a conspiracy theorist.
> 
> ...



Tiny flashes in there that you acknowledge the basic indecency with which you have handled this issue - but then off you go again, prancing, deflecting, quibbling.  In a way, this thread has ceased to be about 9/11, its even ceased to be about the holocaust.  Its now about you.  Really basic human stuff here - you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart and are prepared to play every trick you can to avoid admitting the guy holds monstrous views.  To me that's the worst kind of rationalisation, shoddy behaviour.  You've still got a chance to redeem yourself, but sooner would be better than later.  I'd think a lot more of you if you did that.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazz, care to read my post nr. 568?
Do you think all Nazis on the Nurnberg trial were innocent of what they were accused of, executed because otherwise it would all come out that there was a massive staging going on of a massive lie?
Do you believe every witness who ever witnessed about the horrors, every isngle document and film fragment still existing as witness about it, is only a falsification?
Do you, for example, believe that this evidence and witness loaden documentary I refer to was actually staged fiction and that among others Mengele was playing with an extremely sofisticated doll, acting as if he was torturing a child?

salaam.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Any closer jazzz?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Jazz, care to read my post nr. 568?
> Do you think all Nazis on the Nurnberg trial were innocent of what they were accused of, executed because otherwise it would all come out that there was a massive staging going on of a massive lie?
> Do you believe every witness who ever witnessed about the horrors, every isngle document and film fragment still existing as witness about it, is only a falsification?
> Do you, for example, believe that this evidence and witness loaden documentary I refer to was actually staged fiction and that among others Mengele was playing with an extremely sophisticated doll, acting as if he was torturing a child?
> ...


going on the evidence *yes he does*
after all NK thinks my testimony was a work of fiction
he thinks 7.7 and 9/11 were lies

and Jazz agrees. I have seen nothing to say he doesn't.


----------



## Red O (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh fuck off! I am not 'doubting the holocaust'. I am doubting 'facts' that are not facts.



Badger Kitten stated that: 



> Meanwhile 6m people were murdered.
> Fact,and fact. No false claims



To which you responded:



> ... you see, this is the kind of hysteria I am talking about.



BK's 'hysteria' being to claim that six million Jews were killed in the Holocaust. You cited a quote from Wikipedia as evidence that this claim was in doubt: 



> The Yad Vashem Holocaust Martyrs' and Heroes' Remembrance Authority in Jerusalem, writes that there is no precise figure for the number of Jews killed.


Whilst ignoring other equally valid quotes in the same paragraph putting the toll at somewhere between 5 and 6 million. 

For the record, Kollerstrom's public statement is that:



> "no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber. You call that Holocaust Denial, well I’m proud to be associated with it. I’m happy to defend, it any time, any place. It happens to be true!"


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

liampreston said:


> Jazzz, I think there is a simple question with 3 choices a few messages above you need to answer.
> 
> I have often read your posts on here over the years, and taken what you say with the usual balance of interest and bemusement. However the latter stages of this thread seem to show you in a very different light. I am confused as to why you suddenly seem to be even questioning the basic historical facts of the Holocaust .  Like you, I champion freedom of speech. But some of your recent posts in this thread make me wonder if you have indeed thought carefully about your views and opinions, and your decision to post them in public.
> 
> I wonder if you would not be better off spending some time looking into exactly what it is you are currently saying.



Let's be very clear, again:

I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust

I came onto this thread because people were demanding that I comment, because they knew that I'd had some association with Nick Kollerstrom


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Of course, if I express any sadness that someone calls me a liar and the 7/7 bombs s & the holocaust  a lie, its 

''hysteria''



isn't it Jazzz?


It's mental illness.



It's lies.

It's like being a Nazi.


It's suppression of free speech to say what happened  was real, isn't it?


According to NK, and now, it seems, according to you & you truth seeker pals.


Jump. One way or the other.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Let's be very clear, again:
> 
> I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust
> 
> I came onto this thread because people were demanding that I comment, because they knew that I'd had some association with Nick Kollerstrom



Why are you defending a holocaust denier then?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Let's be very clear, again:
> 
> I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust
> 
> I came onto this thread because people were demanding that I comment, because they knew that I'd had some association with Nick Kollerstrom



So you admit NK is lying?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Let's be very clear, again:
> 
> I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust
> 
> I came onto this thread because people were demanding that I comment, because they knew that I'd had some association with Nick Kollerstrom



Answer the fucking question, for gods sake.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 18, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> It's useful idiots like you who help gain fascists power Jazzz.  Idiots like you who help spread their lies and distortions.



I am starting to think this pretty strongly.

I get that feeling when talking to max freakout and i-am-your-idea as well.


----------



## Red O (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Let's be very clear, again:
> 
> I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust




Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz -

Regarding your friend NK's views:

a) he's not a holocaust denier
b) he is, it's his right
c) he is right to deny the holocaust

Time to pick one i think.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Let's be very clear, again:
> 
> I am not questioning generally accepted facts about the holocaust



Okay, good - cup half full now - all we need now is an honest answer to post 580.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Red O said:


> Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?


Presumably because according to the 7/7 truth movement, I am a a mentally ill liar and according  to NK, Jazz's friend, my life is a work of fiction.


That was who Jazz was siding with.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 18, 2008)

Right this thread is getting way, way out of hand. I am taking a break while it calms down.

I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom.

I will endeavour to answer sensible points and questions but I can't carry on like this with a hundred posters twisting everything I say and demanding answers which will then get twisted by another ten posters before my next reply hits.

Goodnight


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Jazzz -
> 
> Regarding your friend NK's views:
> 
> ...



One keystroke


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazz half an hour ago you told me you were constructing a reply to me. Unless it's the most complex multiple choice answer ever i think you're trying to avoid answering it. Can you answer it please.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

And off he goes. Perfect. There's loyalty and there's integrity. You've shown  that you have zero of the latter.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

a
b
c

so hard to choose...

god damn those Jews...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Right this thread is getting way, way out of hand. I am taking a break while it calms down.
> 
> *I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom*.
> 
> ...



To be honest, I don't think anybody *does *think you hold those views (?).  People are more pissed off that you associate with such a person and, when given the evidence of Kollstrom's views, *still defend him *- even playing games around 'no it wasn't 6 million'.

Edit: Jazzz, I don't like the feeling of being part of the pursuing pack.  Its just in this case it isn't a bloodsport, it isn't a pack - Its something you've brought on yourself - and for BK its personal.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

It's easy to deny millions when you don't think anyone died in the first place


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

To quote a recent email I received


''It's _Jew-lie_ 7th, Zionist bitch

and we're onto you''

Right, Nick? Right, Jazzz?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Or not - all I want is a yes or a no.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2008)

Tommorow it is then jazzz.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Right this thread is getting way, way out of hand. I am taking a break while it calms down.
> 
> I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom.
> 
> ...



The holocaust happened; Nazis killed millions

a) yes
b) no

It's hard to twist a) or b)


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 18, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom.



Stop defending him then.


----------



## 888 (Apr 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> purple_gold



I used to do shit like that with my chemistry set when I was 10.


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Right this thread is getting way, way out of hand. I am taking a break while it calms down.
> 
> I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom.
> 
> ...



Cop out.

Yet again.

You're fucking sick in the head Jazzz, get help.


----------



## fogbat (Apr 19, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> 'Jazzz is deluded' isn't exactly a newsflash to anybody who reads your threads but your defense of Kollenstrom is nudging you over the line from 'oddball' to 'nutter', IMO.



Trouble is, that the more we disagree, the more we pander to his truth-seeking martyr fantasies 

And, if it's remotely relevant, this is from someone who's never met Jazzz, but when we're not discussing 9/11, alt-medicine etc, has found him to be pleasant, knowledgable and helpful on urban75.


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)

fogbat said:


> And, if it's remotely relevant, this is from someone who's never met Jazzz, but when we're not discussing 9/11, alt-medicine etc, has found him to be pleasant, knowledgable and helpful on urban75.



That's the saddest aspect IMO. He's a nice guy. Just easily led.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

jesus


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)




----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh well done btw, you pointed out what the rests of us made clear to to him 3 years before you joined the board.



Just so we're clear, you can't condemn Jazzz if you joined three years after butchers. 

What? 

Apparently I didn't read the FAQ? According to butchers you can't give someone shit who signed up before you.

hey butchers don't you need to go to cops?

TWAT.



> Thread derailing? By suggesting that your brand of worthless shouting at someone has got zero results?



Yeah, for example, I've managed to get RTE the Irish national broadcaster to cancel broadcasting loose change, and I helped cancel a David Ray Griffin talk on the 11th Sept 2007. Oh and as an aside remember "Architect" who kicked Jazzz's arse? I invited him here. 

Of course as someone who "kick's truther ass". You'd be a member and aware of the JREFs. 



> NO thank you, i've destroyed jazz countless times already. No one is waiting on you to do your super-hero role again. Put your pants back on and _go away._



But no sure you've been winning arguments on the internet. Gosh I am once again in awe of your talents and abilities. Wow. you are all powerful.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 19, 2008)

Red O said:


> The figure most commonly used is the six million cited by Adolf Eichmann, a senior SS official.



Not to put too fine a point on it, he was the senior SS official whose express duty it was to overeee the transport of large ethnic populations across Europe.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Is it anti-American for me to suggest that 9/11 was an inside job? Let's note that many Americans think just that.



"Many" Americans believe Elvis is alive. 



> Of course, I am not saying that because I think 9/11 was an inside job I am in any way a holocaust revisionist. I am just pointing out that accusing an elite is not the same as accusing the people.



That's where the problem arises. The kind of people who refer to the Holocaust as a 'myth' or 'hoax' also believe Jews-- religious, cultural or biological-- constitute an elite, part of a vast plan to decieve and enslave, with world domination as their ultimate goal. "Holocaust skeptics", to a man, especially those you're likely to encounter online, are of this mindset. All of them.

I'll just say this about Kollerstrom and then maybe I'll back off, since you seem to have your hands full here. What I'm sensing from this fellow is the unquestioning righteousness of the newly-converted. I can tell you that with a bit of authority because I've been following the arguments of Holocaust deniers in some detail since the second Zündel trial of 1988. The man you're defending is such a n00b that he's basically following along the whole denier Via Trollerosa, genuflecting at each time-worn, oft-demolished station on it. If it can be said that there's such a thing as "mainstream Holocaust denial" his death toll is on the very looniest of fringes.

Ask him where he's getting his numbers. I bet you dollars to donuts he references a website and not a book. I can pretty much tell you what sites he's going to point to and they're all of them virulently antisemitic in nature.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I'm extremely pissed off at the attempts to suggest that I believe the same as Nick Kollerstrom.



I don't think that you do.

What I don't understand is why you are defending him.

So, answer the very simple multiple choice question asked by butchers.

a, b or c.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 19, 2008)

Its all about patterns of thought.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 19, 2008)

goslings posted up a message saying anyone mentioning the holocaust on the truthers board will be banned with the amusing title

Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2008)

Frampton said:


> I don't know how you guys work for a living and keep up the pace of this thread.
> 
> Grassing someone up so he loses his livlehood because he's spouting nonsense? Bloody disgraceful.


He isn't "spouting nonsense", he's using his academic credentials to give credibility to historical revisionism that isn't borne out by the historical record, all the while (if you've bothered to read the thread and the links therein properly) promoting an anti-semitism-tainted worldview.


> And where next? There are teachers pontificating on Islamic terrorism, preachers glorifying Biblical massacres, apologists aplenty for Marxist atrocities.....
> 
> Free Speech matters.



Of course free speech matters, but so does the context in which it is used. 

Myself, I'll happily fight to my last breath to shout down and strike down those who peddle Judaeophobia, claim that a genocide that killed some of my ancestors didn't happen (whether we're talking of the holocaust or of the Ukrainian famine instigated by Stalin) or otherwise promote falsehood, because if I didn't, I wouldn't respect myself.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I'm not agreeing with him, let's make that quite clear.
> 
> What I what I know about Nick K is that he is *no anti-semite. He is a conspiracy theorist.*






Jazzz said:


> Of course, I am not saying that because I think 9/11 was an inside job I am in any way a holocaust revisionist. I am just pointing out that *accusing an elite* is not the same as accusing the people.



And this is the heart of the matter. The conspiracy theorists say that Zionists are the elite, that the Zionists are secretly controlling the world. The fascists now justify the holocaust as a mistake by saying it was all done on the basis of the Protocols of Zion i.e. the Zionists are to blame. 

Both the conspiracy theorists and the fascists attempt to convince us (and themselves) that Zionists don't equal Jews so therefore anything done against the Zionists isn't anti-semitic.

And now, that's why I understand why every conspiracy theory site that I have looked at over the past few days is directly linked to, or just 2 clicks away from hardcore fascist sites.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> Oh, and I'm only alive, and Jewish in case you didn't know, BK, because my great-grandfather got out in time. He had the foresight to see what was happening before it was too late.


I assume then that your great-grandfather married a British Jew, or that one of his descendants converted? 


> Nick K is no anti-semite. He is not 'resurfacing' the ideology of the nazis and I'm sure he finds it utterly objectionable. There is no 'message of hate' there.


He may not be an anti-semite" (a contestable term), but some of his claims reek of Judaeophobia.


> If someone was to question the number of Native Americans killed during Wild West times, what would that make them?


That would depend on the context of the claims, as I'm sure a bright chap like you already knows.


> If someone was to question the plight of the Aborigines during the British invasion of Australia, what would that make them?


Again, that would depend on the context. Simply lining up a series of contestable subjects without explaining the context makes you appear a bit of a twit, Jazzz.


> Mistaken, maybe, but not necessarily evil.


I wasn't aware that anyone had claimed that Mr. Kollerstrom himself was evil.


> I'm sure we could think of many examples.
> 
> Yes, I'm sure that many real anti-semites will question the holocaust to seek to minimise the horror caused by the nazi regime. However, that doesn't mean that those questioning the holocaust are anti-semitic, that is a grave error of logic.


Whether there is an error of logic is dependent on *context*, wouldn't you say?


> If Nick K. is questioning aspects of the story it's because he genuinely believes they are questionable, and while we have freedom of thought and speech I don't have a problem with it. He isn't questioning that Jews died in vast numbers, in horrible circumstances.


Hmm, you need to re-read the quotes from him that have been posted on this thread.


> Sorry to not be jumping on the bandwagon of hysteria.


You usually do it so well yourself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I doubt he could bear to, and look his family photos in the eye.



He's luckier than most to actual have any visual reminders.


----------



## Darios (Apr 19, 2008)

smokedout said:


> goslings posted up a message saying anyone mentioning the holocaust on the truthers board will be banned with the amusing title
> 
> Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial



Oh good god.

OK time to take my boot out of my mouth on this one.  

It's because of the direct association between these people and the term "conspiracy theory / theorist" I get so aggravated. I guess the people I'm thinking of who are sincerely seeking "9/11 truth" are also people who don't frequent those boards where it becomes one unchallenged mutual masturbation circle.

It is my contention that there remain *serious *problems with the official 9/11 narrative; and many aspects that were not satisfactorily investigated, if not obfuscated right from the start. 

It is also my contention that there are other crucial issues and stories that themselves qualify as "conspiracy theories" where there is very good reason and evidence to take them seriously. However, because the opprobrium attracted to not just the term, but the very idea, either the issue is dismissed out of hand, or insufficient attention is given to it for any kind of public outrage, exposure and investigation to take place. By the time something like this  is "officially" endorsed as having actually happened it is usually too late to stop it, the damage is done etc etc.

The issue mentioned earlier, about "far-right"  (in quotations because there is good reason to suppose in some cases that it isn't just bona fide 'far-right' infiltrators but also those on govt payrolls) elements infiltrating the greens (and left radical groups also) is, to my mind a conspiracy theory; or at least in danger of becoming one if there are ever any occurrences that are blamed on such infiltration without completely solid proof. I agree there is evidence, and good reason to suppose that this occurs, yet rarely is it proof positive. Indeed I have seen an instance of this kind of infiltration happen first hand in Sheffield.

Because of the fear of being associated with the term "conspiracy" however, it's difficult to make any kind of rational progress in either discussing or investigating any such an issue. And pretending that what you're talking about isn't remotely "conspiracy" like simply clouds the issue.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 19, 2008)

smokedout said:


> goslings posted up a message saying anyone mentioning the holocaust on the truthers board will be banned with the amusing title
> 
> Mossad trick - Link 9/11 Truth to Holocaust denial



Fucks sake


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)

So is Gosling a closet Nazi fan-boy with the same mental problems as Icke and Shayler, or what?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2008)

Darios said:


> Oh good god.
> 
> OK time to take my boot out of my mouth on this one.
> 
> ...


That's generally the case with *any* large-scale crisis, in that Capital and political and power elites seek to protect themselves and their power-base. That doesn't, however, give people licence to interpolate their fantasies with an/the "official" narrative and from that conclude that *x, y* or *z* occurred


> It is also my contention that there are other crucial issues and stories that themselves qualify as "conspiracy theories" where there is very good reason and evidence to take them seriously. However, because the opprobrium attracted to not just the term, but the very idea, either the issue is dismissed out of hand, or insufficient attention is given to it for any kind of public outrage, exposure and investigation to take place. By the time something like this  is "officially" endorsed as having actually happened it is usually too late to stop it, the damage is done etc etc.
> 
> The issue mentioned earlier, about "far-right"  (in quotations because there is good reason to suppose in some cases that it isn't just bona fide 'far-right' infiltrators but also those on govt payrolls) elements infiltrating the greens (and left radical groups also) is, to my mind a conspiracy theory; or at least in danger of becoming one if there are ever any occurrences that are blamed on such infiltration without completely solid proof. I agree there is evidence, and good reason to suppose that this occurs, yet rarely is it proof positive. Indeed I have seen an instance of this kind of infiltration happen first hand in Sheffield.
> 
> Because of the fear of being associated with the term "conspiracy" however, it's difficult to make any kind of rational progress in either discussing or investigating any such an issue. And pretending that what you're talking about isn't remotely "conspiracy" like simply clouds the issue.



The problem with many conspiracy theories is that rather than being analysed by "conspiracy theorists" as unitary events and occurrences, they are almost always analysed through a lens that magnifies them as part of a *web* connected to other conspiracies, in effect leading to a _reductio ad absurdum_ conclusion that *necessarily* views the occurrence as part of a conspiracy.
This isn't to say that conspiracies aren't real, but that viewing them as part of a _continuum_ of interconnected conspiratorial behaviour on the part of  power misses the point of challenging *real* "obfuscation" and the like.
How many "conspiracy theorists" do you know who subscribe to a single theory, rather than buying into the whole _shebang_ of connected CTs?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> How many "conspiracy theorists" do you know who subscribe to a single theory, rather than buying into the whole _shebang_ of connected CTs?




And in doing that they end up with the stupidest theory of power ever launched.  As well as (to state the obvious) stopping everyone else having a legitimate debate about the ways in which government does conspire with 'elites'.  As well as not understanding the concept of _power_, they also fail to understand what an _elite _is and even - their specialist subject - what a _conspiracy _is.  Not much fucking hope for them is there.


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 19, 2008)

jazzz, is your answer to the very simple yes/no question folks have been trying to extract from you any closer now you've had over 12 hours to 'sleep on it' ?

you realise if this was real life and you were deliberately refusing to answer butchersapron's quesion above you would have got a few healthy slaps by now? that's the sort of shit you're getting into by sitting on the fence, boy.


----------



## Darios (Apr 19, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's generally the case with *any* large-scale crisis, in that Capital and political and power elites seek to protect themselves and their power-base. That doesn't, however, give people licence to interpolate their fantasies with an/the "official" narrative and from that conclude that *x, y* or *z* occurred



I agree with your second sentence. 

I am interested however in how you fully distinguish these things. To my mind, to say that, for example, large scale power/monopolies seek to protect themselves and their power-base is, however reasonable, to still state a conspiracy theory of sorts, unless you're using a hidden premise to make a distinction between conspiracy/non-conspiracy (e.g. that to count as 'conspiracy' it has to be hidden from view somehow?). This isn't a hostile challenge - I'm seeking clarification on what you mean as I think you and I would classify many of these issues differently.




ViolentPanda said:


> The problem with many conspiracy theories is that rather than being analysed by "conspiracy theorists" as unitary events and occurrences, they are almost always analysed through a lens that magnifies them as part of a *web* connected to other conspiracies, in effect leading to a _reductio ad absurdum_ conclusion that *necessarily* views the occurrence as part of a conspiracy.



TBH I'm thinking very much in terms of singular events. I see your point about erroneous 'web-like' associations. Unfortunately in some cases, there is some kind of web-like pattern to be found. Sibel Edmonds is a very worrying and I would argue, credible, instance of this.



ViolentPanda said:


> This isn't to say that conspiracies aren't real, but that viewing them as part of a _continuum_ of interconnected conspiratorial behaviour on the part of  power misses the point of challenging *real* "obfuscation" and the like.



My worry is though VP that if people are mentally unable to consider something as a 'conspiracy' (let's for arguments sake, refer to only 'unitary' (i.e. non-web like) instances), through the bollocks and derision now associated with the word, then it impedes any efforts to actually investigate (and maybe even stop) active and actual conspiracies.




ViolentPanda said:


> How many "conspiracy theorists" do you know who subscribe to a single theory, rather than buying into the whole _shebang_ of connected CTs?



I guess this is the rub. I encounter a lot of people who investigate x, y and z with integrity and competence, but don't self-identify as a conspiracy theorist per se despite the fact that what they are investigating is clearly some kind of conspiracy. This might not seem anything to be concerned about, however look at it this way: there's a perceptible shift from people simply not wanting to be associated with "conspiracy theories/theorists" to the automatic assumption that "conspiracy" itself is absurd. And, as I've said earlier, there's a corresponding reluctance to help investigate or take seriously anything with such an (erroneous) association.

In answer to your question, I'd consider myself and some of my friends as people who fit your first criterion with the addendum that there are several theories that any one of us may be looking at or investigating that aren't necessarily considered to be part of a coherent 'web', but each topics of interest in their own right. (For example, I've spent the last three months compiling and linking everything I can on the Sibel Edmonds story, especially on the relatively ignored UK connections; similarly a friend of mine wrote an excellent summary detailing the influence of various so-called "occult" groups in politics - I might still have an electronic version of this book if you would like a copy btw).


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 19, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> you would have got a few healthy slaps by now?



There is no such thing as a 'healthy slap'. That's a disgraceful thing to say.


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

Darios said:


> TBH I'm thinking very much in terms of singular events. I see your point about erroneous 'web-like' associations. Unfortunately in some cases, there is some kind of web-like pattern to be found. Sibel Edmonds is a very worrying and I would argue, credible, instance of this.
> 
> .



Would you care to explain what a low level FBI translator hired six months after Sept 11th has, that she hasn't bothered to make public in eight years?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 19, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> you realise if this was real life and you were deliberately refusing to answer butchersapron's quesion above you would have got a few healthy slaps by now? that's the sort of shit you're getting into by sitting on the fence, boy.



First of all I'm uncomfortable with the 'healthy slaps' idea but by the by.

Normally I find that sitting on the fence is a good way of seeing further than those on either side.

However, in this situation I place my self firmly against the loonspuds who are peddling Holocaust denial and mixing it up with the bonkers CT's around 911 7/7 etc.  

Jazz, there are many things that can be excused but not condemning Holocaust denial for fear that it may remove a leg from an already crumbling table laden with CT nonsense is not one of them.  Have your CT's by all means (and my personal opinion is that there are unanswered questions but I reckon they are cock up rather then conspiracy) but be aware that there are people out there in CT world who hold pretty skanky views.  

Don't defend the Holocaust denying loon just condemn them.  Its not mob rule, its not caving into what the state wants you to think, its not whatever sort of reason its just plain fucking decency to call a Holocaust denying fuckwit a Holocaust denying fuckwit.  

Sometimes its the people that CT's associate with which is their own worst enemy.


----------



## Red O (Apr 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Jazzz -
> 
> Regarding your friend NK's views:
> 
> ...



A, B or C, whenever you're ready.


----------



## Darios (Apr 19, 2008)

8den said:


> Would you care to explain what a low level FBI translator hired six months after Sept 11th has, that she hasn't bothered to make public in eight years?



Sure.

First she wasn't hired six months after Sept 11th, she was in fact hired nine days after. Where did you get six months from?

Second, as to the claim "she hasn't bothered", she tried bringing her evidence to light in early 2002, first through internal official channels (within the FBI), which resulted in her being sacked (and the subsequent investigation by the Office of the Inspector General supported her claim that she was sacked because of her allegations). 

She then tried to go through external official channels, taking legal action and gaining substantial official support from senators and pressure groups. Ashcroft then applied the 'State Secrets Privilege' and she was legally gagged. He then took the unprecedented step of retroactively classifying everything related to her case. Congress itself was prevented, under the same 'State Secrets Privilege' from even referring to her case.

It's taken her this long to get even a whiff of mainstream media interest - the Sunday Times is assuredly her most high profile exposure yet. Despite this there has been no more movement on her case, either in the media, or via the legal system and it's back in the doldrums. Quite incredible given the circumstances.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

yeah i agree, the "healthy slaps" shit is out of order. 

i avoided getting involved in this thread because jazzz is a mate of mine and i like him a lot, but the fact is jazzz you cannot defend nazis' and holocaust deniers, and as has been pointed out to you before by me and others, there are unfortunately a large number of people who believe in a Jewish conspiracy or they use people's legitimate questions about 9/11 (and I agree with you that there are some VERY dodgy things about it, even if my conclusions aren't the same as yours, necessarily) for their own ends. 

it is frequently used to fuel propaganda against the jews. Not zionists. Jews.

forget what they say about "zionism" - it's pretty obvious when the word "zionism" is being used to refer to itself and when it is used to refer to Jews in general. 

and this type of shit plays into the hands of people who would like to see any criticism of Israel and the zionist lobby labelled as anti-semites, because they know how repellent this stuff appears. 

the fact is that this guy denies the holocaust and views it as a "zionist" plot. you cannot excuse it. you cannot justify it in anyway. 

There are legitimate questions about the holocaust that I agree need to be asked. Yes there is evidence that SOME Jewish groups did collude with Nazis because either - they didnt really know what the Nazis were and regarded teh British as more their enemy in Palestine, and regarded establishing a totalitarian dictatorship in Israel as their ultimate goal.

And yes some Jews lived relatively untrobuled lives (my mates family was one of them) in Germany largely due to luck or circumstance. There were a few isolated cases of half Jewish people working in Nazi offices who were secular and didn't consider themselves Jewish. Had the war continued they would eventually have been next, despite the fact they escaped the Nazi bureaucracy. 

Hitler's goal was to kill every Jew in the world. By the end of the war he'd killed about a third of the Jews in Europe. 

And yes the fact that the profiteering activities of wealthy bankers and businessmen, some of them were Jewish, soe weren't, attracted a huge degree of resentment which led to Hitler's rise, but it was depicted as a Jewish plot in Nazi propaganda, helped gain support for the Nazis, needs to be discussed. 

As does Dresden, the treaty of Versailles, the expulsion of millions of German refugees after the war, the fact that innocent German women were raped in their thousands as part of a deliberate policy when the Soviets occupied the country at the end of the war and, all the pre-war injustices against Germany that led to a perfect environment for someone like Hitler to take advantage. This stuff must be recognised without anyone accusing the person who raises it of anti-semitism or trying to "downplay the holocaust". 

But this is not the same as denying the holocaust or blaming its victims for it in any way. JEWS WERE NOT TO BLAME. Zionists were not to blame either - they can be blamed for many, many other things, but NOT the holocaust. They may have colluded but they were NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR IT. 

THE FASH WERE TO BLAME. 

I personally think that if anything, the numbers killed in the holocaust were higher than what we're led to believe - and certainly it has been in the interests of many countries who colluded with Germany, like Austria and Romania, to downplay their role in it, downplay the numbers killed, and blame it all on Germany when those countries were quite happy to go along with the "evil Germans". The Romanian Nazi party took power and began a final solution of its own completely independently of Germany, which fought on the same side as it but never occupied it. 

The Channel Islands, too - look at the Jews were deported from there, giving the lie to the fact that "Britain was standing alone against the Nazis". Like fuck it was. Denmark and Albania saved more people on their soil than the British did on theirs when it was occupied. 

And for a long time it was denied that gypsies were the victims of a concerted extermination campaign like the Jews were. Why? Becuase the leaders of countries, especially in Eastern Europe, had a vested interest in denying the gypsies' plight. If they didn't, questions might have been asked about the policies of discrimination that were still in existence towards them and the fact that in many Eastern European countries they still live in ghetto like conditions. 

And then there are things like Jasenovac and the atrocities of the croatian ustasha, which everyone "forgets" about. Why? Again because certain people have a vested interest in pretending it never happened or not mentioning it at all. Its easy to tell why that is, if you think about it!! 

I suspect that the numbers killed in the holocaust are a lot higher than the official figures, NOT lower. I really do. 

There is indisputable evidence of mass murder, gas chambers, trucks used to gas people, mass burial pits and many other horrors. They are still uncovering mass graves in Eastern Europe - the last one was a few years ago. And people want to deny it because they have political motives for doing so, because they think the holocaust was right, or because they think that anything "the west" says is bad was good or didn't happen at all - even though the USA was thinking of entering the war on Germany's side and people like Anthony Eden refused to let Jews into Britain during the war!! only a fucking cunt would deny the evidence of mass murder that is right in front of them and evidence that is covered up when it applies to certain groups, and which many governments refuse to recognise happened at all ...

Its not the same as questioning 9/11 don't you see that? Its not a harmless thing to do ! It's denying the murder of millions of innocent people for being Jews, homosexuals, Russians etc by the fash - if you deny that then you are saying that the fash weren't as bad as we all know they are. there is no reason to deny the holocaust apart from that.......................


----------



## smokedout (Apr 19, 2008)

top post


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

frogwoman said:
			
		

> Its not the same as questioning 9/11 don't you see that? Its not a harmless thing to do ! It's denying the murder of millions of innocent people for being Jews, homosexuals, Russians etc by the fash - if you deny that then you are saying that the fash weren't as bad as we all know they are. there is no reason to deny the holocaust apart from that.......................



All of that so well said froggie, but I just wanted to re-emphasise this bit.


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

Darios said:


> Sure.
> 
> First she wasn't hired six months after Sept 11th, she was in fact hired nine days after. Where did you get six months from?



Six months is the sum total of her time as a translator, my mistake. 


In six months Sibel Edwards was able to piece together a huge vaste conspiracy that no one else could? What is she? Nancy Drew?



> It's taken her this long to get even a whiff of mainstream media interest -



Bullshit.  She appeared on sixty minutes years ago. Try again



> the Sunday Times is assuredly her most high profile exposure yet.



You mean the Sunday Times article which makes no specific or concrete claims about 911 (aside from the Atta 100 grand canard) That specific piece of bullshit?




> Despite this there has been no more movement on her case, either in the media, or via the legal system and it's back in the doldrums. Quite incredible given the circumstances.



Or alternatively she's a dubious source of unspecified claims that CTers love.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Has anyone apart from me noticed that Darios has turned this into a conspiracy theory thread, 8den is encouraging him, and that there's a danger of froggie's post getting lost down a page of multi-quotes?


----------



## Darios (Apr 19, 2008)

8den said:


> In six months Sibel Edwards was able to piece together a huge vaste conspiracy that no one else could? What is she? Nancy Drew?



Not quite what she did 8den. You're being disingenuous. Other people have pieced her evidence together with other investigations with solid links.




8den said:


> Bullshit.  She appeared on sixty minutes years ago. Try again



That's correct. I forgot about that. My mistake.





8den said:


> You mean the Sunday Times article which makes no specific or concrete claims about 911 (aside from the Atta 100 grand canard) That specific piece of bullshit?



Who said this was about 911? 
She makes one claim about govt foreknowledge, (and as a result gave 3 hours of testimony to the 911 commission) however its the remainder of her testimony that is far more interesting; specifically regarding the nuclear black market.




8den said:


> Or alternatively she's a dubious source of unspecified claims that CTers love.



If she was a dubious source she would have been outed by now. Instead she's been gagged under threat of imprisonment.  She's got support from many high profile people including congresspeople, the Inspector General and a substantial number of government accountability pressure groups.


----------



## Jazzz (Apr 19, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Are you still defending this bloke then jazzz? After (presumably) reading what he has to say? On what grounds? Free spech?  Fine, but that means a commitment from you that he is a negationist, that he is a holocaust denier. Do we have that? Is that your position, that he is a holocaust denier but that denial is his right? Let's be clear here.



ok, first things first. I missed this post last night (and several others), so apologies if it was out of synch and I seemed to claim otherwise.

Yes, by the definition of 'holocaust denier' that wikipedia gives you would have to include Nick K. He accepted the term himself on BK's blog, so I don't see why you need me to confirm it.

All I am defending him against is the charge of anti-semitism. This is because I know the guy, and you all know I've had some association with him, and you were demanding I comment. 

Note how a few people have said that having met me they find it hard to imagine me as well... some kind of evil nazi apologist. Well guess what, that's exactly how I feel about Nick K. He comes across as utterly harmless if perhaps somewhat barmy (and that's me saying that  )

Let's also be clear again that:
1) I do not share Nick K.'s views here, and this is the first I know about them. I suspect some posters are disappointed with that - wouldn't it be a great stick to beat jazzz with?
2) I'm pretty disappointed he's making an issue of them. I don't think it does 9/11 Truth Campaigning any favours
3) I respect his right to hold such views and exercise free speech
4) I realise that neo-nazi groups may also share the same views for unpalatable reason. Anyone that blames 'The Jews' for anything - I will have nothing to do with.

TBH, I don't know how much I'll have to do with Nick K after this anyway, for reason (2), but I'll stick up my strong belief that he is no anti-semite.

I would suggest that rather than getting on a moral crusade about Nick K., a benign man who believes in crop circles and makes purple gold, and start suggesting that 'free speech has limits', posters (especially BK) might want to pay attention to Deborah Lipstadt's viewpoint, when she said about David Irving  - we know who she is of course?



> Yet Lipstadt, arguably the best-known warrior against Holocaust denial, believes that the best outcome would be for Irving to be let go.
> 
> "I would not want to see him spend more time in jail," she says.
> 
> "I am uncomfortable with imprisoning people for speech. Let him go and let him fade from everyone's radar screens."


 BBC

Lipstadt knows that the only sure defence against fascism is such rigid protection of human rights. That is what one must learn from WWII. State propagandists succeeded then and they may just as easily do so again. We shouldn't think for a second that we are somehow immune, or too clever. The only sure defence is to be utterly vigilant about free speech, and human rights.




			
				4thwrite said:
			
		

> Tiny flashes in there that you acknowledge the basic indecency with which you have handled this issue - but then off you go again, prancing, deflecting, quibbling. In a way, this thread has ceased to be about 9/11, its even ceased to be about the holocaust. Its now about you. Really basic human stuff here - you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart and are prepared to play every trick you can to avoid admitting the guy holds monstrous views. To me that's the worst kind of rationalisation, shoddy behaviour. You've still got a chance to redeem yourself, but sooner would be better than later. I'd think a lot more of you if you did that.



No, sorry. I don't 'agree' with Nick Kollerstrom here. I don't agree with him about crop circles either, or his moon stuff. I may agree with him that there is something very fishy about 9/11.

As I pointed out earlier (several posters it seemed were assuming otherwise I now read, not just quasar), the 'holocaust denialers' don't actually deny that vast numbers of Jews were rounded up and died in horrible circumstances in forced labour camps, which is genocide and quite bad enough. Even if all their claims were true, to me it would hardly make the nazis much less repugnant.

I accept the official version of events. I am no expert. I haven't looked into it in any great detail at all. For me it would matter little anyway, as stated above. I would like to think that people that know a lot more than I do about WWII would debunk such stuff, and I trust that they have.

This answers questions put by BadgerKitten and Aldebaran.




			
				Red O said:
			
		

> Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?


Because she claimed it as if an indisputable fact, where we only have estimates. She and other posters also seemed to believe that Nick K. was denying that any Jews died at the hands of the Germans. And patently you can also see how much certain posters wanted to 'get me' for sharing Nick K.'s views. This is all symptomatic of the lynch mob, it's hysterical, and no good for truth.

I hope we've all calmed down a bit.




			
				Y I Otter said:
			
		

> That's where the problem arises. The kind of people who refer to the Holocaust as a 'myth' or 'hoax' also believe Jews-- religious, cultural or biological-- constitute an elite, part of a vast plan to decieve and enslave, with world domination as their ultimate goal. "Holocaust skeptics", to a man, especially those you're likely to encounter online, are of this mindset. All of them.
> 
> I'll just say this about Kollerstrom and then maybe I'll back off, since you seem to have your hands full here. What I'm sensing from this fellow is the unquestioning righteousness of the newly-converted. I can tell you that with a bit of authority because I've been following the arguments of Holocaust deniers in some detail since the second Zündel trial of 1988. The man you're defending is such a n00b that he's basically following along the whole denier Via Trollerosa, genuflecting at each time-worn, oft-demolished station on it. If it can be said that there's such a thing as "mainstream Holocaust denial" his death toll is on the very looniest of fringes.
> 
> Ask him where he's getting his numbers. I bet you dollars to donuts he references a website and not a book. I can pretty much tell you what sites he's going to point to and they're all of them virulently antisemitic in nature.


I take issue with your first paragraph. Accusing elites is not the same as accusing entire races. I believe we are ruled by an 'elite' which may have a zionist element and which treats everyone else, Jews and non-Jews, like cattle.

I don't take issue with the second. You may be right. Right now, I'm afraid I've little desire to contact Nick though. 

Right it's taken a long time to get that far and that's it for a while. I might have a look at froggy's post but I'm hoping that this one isn't going to run and run - it really isn't worth it.


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> Has anyone apart from me noticed that Darios has turned this into a conspiracy theory thread, 8den is encouraging him, and that there's a danger of froggie's post getting lost down a page of multi-quotes?




I'll happily stop responding to Darios, but if you think this piece of evidence of further relations between 911 assholes and holocaust deniers is the one that is going to convince Jazzz about 911 conspiracy theorists. 

911 conspiracy theorists like Eric D. Williams, Nicholas Kollerstrom, Chris Boyln, Eric May, Webster Tarpley, Steve Campbell, Kevin Barrett, Eric Hufschmid, Tony Gosling, David Icke, have all made on the record denials about Holocaust. 

When you see that list and still claim aren't links between Holocaust Denial and the Truth Movement, you're a hopeless lost cause.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

8den, I couldn't care less about what Darios is posting. I think he's got some extremely dodgey views which are self evident in his posting history. I mentioned that at the start of the thread.

It's no surprise to me that he wants to redirect this thread back into conspiracy theories in general, and then into this specific one. 

You're letting him, either because you don't detect what's going on in terms of a derail - or because you value arguing with him more than what we're discussing on this thread.

It's entirely up to you of course, but I'm just making a request that you either contribute to the subject of the thread - or STFU.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 19, 2008)

Jazzz said:


> I believe we are ruled by an 'elite' which may have a zionist element and which treats everyone else, Jews and non-Jews, like cattle.



This looks very close to ZOG to me. What the fuck are you into Jazzz?


----------



## Red O (Apr 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted by Red O
> Then why did you accuse Badger Kitten of "hysteria" when she said "6m people were murdered"?





Jazzz said:


> Because she claimed it as if an indisputable fact, where we only have estimates. She and other posters also seemed to believe that Nick K. was denying that any Jews died at the hands of the Germans. And patently you can also see how much certain posters wanted to 'get me' for sharing Nick K.'s views. This is all symptomatic of the lynch mob, it's hysterical, and no good for truth.
> 
> I hope we've all calmed down a bit.



We only have 'estimates' in that mainstream scholarship is uncertain about where precisely, in the range of around five or six million, how many Jews were killed by the Nazis. At worst, Badger Kitten assumes the figure is toward the high end of that spectrum. Your associate, on the other hand, makes the qualititatively different claim that "no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber". You say that you believe that Kollerstrom isn't an anti-Semite, but what, apart from anti-semitism, could motivate such a claim? Do you think there is evidence to back it up?


----------



## Frampton (Apr 19, 2008)

Just can't keep up with this thread. And it gets pretty nasty too.

I suppose if people are willing to write-off free speech as "bullshit" or some sort of liberal get-out clause then it doesn't matter.

Has there been any mention of the Gulag atrocities yet? There's a Ukranian church in Halifax with a plaque outside remembering the 3 million Ukranians who were starved to death in 1935. There are still a few Marxists around in denial about pograms that murdered millions more than the Nazi ever did.  There are still more who continue to see Cuba through the same denial spectacles. 

But who is going to judge the limits of free speech? And how is restricted speech to be patrolled? And what does free speech sound like?

I'd be intrigued to know.


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

Theres a load screw loose change post comparing the behaviour of Holocaust deniers to 911 truthers



> *Standards of Evidence*
> 
> Thousands of witnesses don't mean anything because they are Zionist shills. Vague speculation is more proof than that. Need I say more?
> 
> ...


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> This looks very close to ZOG to me. What the fuck are you into Jazzz?



Here's the rationale

Thing is, you really do need to know a whole load of underlying mysticism, occultism, mythology, gnosticism, secret society etc etc beliefs in order to piece together where they're coming from to understand it. Helps to understand, cos then you see why to reject what they're saying and why (as opposed to 'you're nutters' which actually gives them fuel).


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> Here's the rationale
> 
> Thing is, you really do need to know a whole load of underlying mysticism, occultism, mythology, gnosticism, secret society etc etc beliefs in order to piece together where they're coming from to understand it. Helps to understand, cos then you see why to reject what they're saying and why (as opposed to 'you're nutters' which actually gives them fuel).



Most of it appears to be ripped straight from the Illuminati books mentioned earlier tbh.

What concerns me is that Jazzz is letting himself be used by fascists to spread their shit and he isn't even aware of it.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Frampton said:


> But who is going to judge the limits of free speech? And how is restricted speech to be patrolled? And what does free speech sound like?
> 
> I'd be intrigued to know.



Free speech works both ways. Deal with it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2008)

This isn't a thread about the actual details of 911 theories, this is a thread about a particular proponent also being a holocaust denier, thus it would be best to stick to the latter and ignore the former.


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)

Though clearly 99 percent of them are nutters.

Kollerstrom's alchemy theories are particularly funny.

And crop circles.

And gardening by the moon.


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Most of it appears to be ripped straight from the Illuminati books mentioned earlier tbh.



No, it goes deeper than that. To an extent, you can really get distracted/attracted by the Illuminati thing (which is what I think many conspiracy theorists do). It's a bit of a red herring tbh, cos all it did was selectively draw upon some of the elements that were already out there and kind of bring them altogether in a parodying fashion. You don't even understand the parody unless you're aware of the separate elements. Let's face it, a lot of people dismiss organised religion/belief (for example) without understanding the religions/beliefs in themselves, and underestimate the power that they have as a result.




			
				Blagsta said:
			
		

> What concerns me is that Jazzz is letting himself be used by fascists to spread their shit and he isn't even aware of it.



Maybe. But that's why we'd like an answer to (a) (b) or (c) but I note that Jazzz didn't do that again. Instead he introduces yet more conspiracy stuff in his long post, and thinks that we don't notice, or that we'll spend time on that rather than homing back to the key question.


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 19, 2008)

You think he is aware he is allying with fascists?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> Has anyone apart from me noticed that Darios has turned this into a conspiracy theory thread, 8den is encouraging him, and that there's a danger of froggie's post getting lost down a page of multi-quotes?



its a conspiracy


----------



## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> You think he is aware he is allying with fascists?



 He may not realise it because he's so immersed in it.

Edit: I'm not sure if he's aware or not. But even if he's not aware - he won't examine it to see if it's maybe true, because he's trying to defend his position. That's natural.


----------



## pk (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> He may not realise it because he's so immersed in it.
> 
> Edit: I'm not sure if he's aware or not. But even if he's not aware - he won't examine it to see if it maybe true, because he's trying to defend his position. That's natural.



Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 19, 2008)

> Originally Posted by 4thwrite
> Tiny flashes in there that you acknowledge the basic indecency with which you have handled this issue - but then off you go again, prancing, deflecting, quibbling. In a way, this thread has ceased to be about 9/11, its even ceased to be about the holocaust. Its now about you. Really basic human stuff here - *you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart* and are prepared to play every trick you can to avoid admitting the guy holds monstrous views. To me that's the worst kind of rationalisation, shoddy behaviour. You've still got a chance to redeem yourself, but sooner would be better than later. I'd think a lot more of you if you did that.





> JAZZZ:   *No, sorry. I don't 'agree' with Nick Kollerstrom here. I don't agree with him about crop circles either, or his moon stuff.* I may agree with him that there is something very fishy about 9/11.
> 
> As I pointed out earlier (several posters it seemed were assuming otherwise I now read, not just quasar), the 'holocaust denialers' don't actually deny that vast numbers of Jews were rounded up and died in horrible circumstances in forced labour camps, which is genocide and quite bad enough. Even if all their claims were true, to me it would hardly make the nazis much less repugnant.
> 
> I accept the official version of events. I am no expert. I haven't looked into it in any great detail at all. For me it would matter little anyway, as stated above. I would like to think that people that know a lot more than I do about WWII would debunk such stuff, and I trust that they have.



You misunderstand me or are playing a game here (the former i hope).  When I said "you agree with someone on an issue close to your heart ", I meant you agree with him *on 9/11. *  I *don't think *you agree with him on the holocaust - as I've said and others have. Nothing at all to do with the moon or crop circles.  Following on from that, the real issue is that your shared 9/11 beliefs stop you criticising his view that the holocaust didn't happen - even getting into rather distasteful exchanges as to whether 6 million was a 'fact'.  

Loyalty is never a bad thing, but i have an awful feeling this is a strategic rather than a personal loyalty.  Its more that you are not prepared to get stuck into a prominent 9/11er than a sense of loyalty to him personaly. Am i wrong?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2008)

Frampton said:


> Just can't keep up with this thread. And it gets pretty nasty too.
> 
> I suppose if people are willing to write-off free speech as "bullshit" or some sort of liberal get-out clause then it doesn't matter.
> 
> ...



If you'd bothered to read my reply to your previous tirade, you'd have noticed that I mentioned the Ukrainian famine.
But you didn't bother to read it, did you?


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## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

pk said:


> Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.



Oh yes, absolutely. That's how you recruit, innit. Tap into that potential in a presentable & acceptable manner, knowing that the other side will just diss them and send them running further into your arms. Job done.


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## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> Oh yes, absolutely. That's how you recruit, innit. Tap into that potential in a presentable & acceptable manner, knowing that the other side will just diss them and send them running further into your arms. Job done.



For example Webster Tarpley was a right hand man for Lyndon J LaRouche, I really suspect Tarpley is a gatekeeper for recruits for LaRouchian groups.


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## cesare (Apr 19, 2008)

8den said:


> For example Webster Tarpley was a right hand man for Lyndon J LaRouche, I really suspect Tarpley is a gatekeeper for recruits for LaRouchian groups.



I don't know anything much about that, tbh. But if you're expanding on the theme of "useful idiots", then yeah. Obvious innit.


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

i don't think you're anti-semitic jazzz but i do think you often have a blind spot when it comes to these people you associate with. i mean you haave to seriously think about what you are saying, and whose theories you are promoting, when some of these websites and people who many (not all!!) conspiracy theorists "respect" openly promote anti-semitism and racism!!! 

jeff rense, alex jones, david icke... all these people are well known for making anti-semetic and anti-black, anti-immigrant statements which can be easily found on their own websites. and i will never understand why people see them as tellers of the truth when quite obviously their views and ideologies play into the hands of people who can then point to it and say about 9/11 and the subsequent events that there is nothing to investigate, that anyone who criticises or raises questions about the government's policy or the depiction of it in the media must be some kind of fanatic!! 

who in their right mind, who is not a nazi, claims that there were no gas chambers, and that people in the concentration camps were not intentionally killed? that the claims of hundreds of witnesses, including former nazis themselves, are untrue? and made up by zionists??? 

does anyone seriously believe that a small terrorist group like the stern gang or irgun would have persuaded hitler to annex territories in Europe and kill millions of jews, gypsies, serbs, russians, as well as try the enslavement of poles and czechs on German "living space", murder political opponents (including many nazis) and disabled and gay people or could have paid him to do it? of course they tried to collaborate with the nazis but not to that extent. does anyone seriously think that these terrorists from a group hitler wanted to wipe out had any affect on his policy? 

would killing gypsies (which was denied for many years afterwards) have helped set up Israel?? NO! did they collaborate with the romanian fash who just did their own thing? No! 

It wont surprise me in the least if we dig up several more mass graves dating from the Nazi era and continue to do so for years. There are still people missing from that time that nobody knows what happened to. There are too many countries that have never faced up to what their wartime leadership did and sometimes the government even view it as a good thing. Croatia and Romania especially, but there are others. And lest we forget there was a legion of British soldiers and captured prisoners of war who chose, voluntarily, to fight for the SS. There were British soldiers in Libya who were involved in massacres of Jews. 

Given this can we really say that "questioning aspects of the holocaust" and saying that it was not as bad as first suggested is justified or that it is the right thing to do after 60 years? Of course, because it wasnt as bad as everyone thinks. It was alot worse. 

only a nazi has a reason for making up these lies. why would a person who doesn't agree with a nazi ideology dispute the testimonies of witnesses who are clearly distressed, the soldiers who entered the camps and found bodies pile up to the cieling, the people who thought they were signing up to help their country only to find they were expected to be involved in atrocities? 

why do they downplay the victims of nazi scum? what is their interest in making the fash look less bad than they were? why try and make it seem as though nazi atrocities are comparable to any other army's activities in war? why? they are not comparable, atrocities happen in all wars, and there have been genocides throughout history, but there is clear and incontrovertible evidence of a systematic policy of industrialised genocide, something that, for all their faults, the allies did NOT do in World War 2. 

they are aware that gas chambers werent the only method used to kill people - the einsatzgruppen anyone? what about the trucks which the filthy scum used to put people in the back of and then drive around until they died? what about the "jew hunts" and the fact that people used to be forced to do pressups and run around for the SS "soldiers" amusement until they collasped with exhaustion? the reports, written by fash "doctors" themselves, describing the medical experiments which they conducted on innocent people in order to determine how low or high of temperatures or amounts of oxygen the human body could withstand? the sickening "tourists" who paid to go around fash occupied Poland to view for themselves how "disgusting" and "subhuman" the Poles and Jews were? 

its the atmosphere of denial that enables people to say, "oh well, you know all things considered, maybe hitler wasn't so bad after all?" 

all of this stuff is meticulously well documented because the fash kept records, they took pride in their "work", and although they destroyed some, most of them still survive.

What have these people got to say about something like Hitler's genocidal hatred of serbs and a plan to murder them all, that most people dont know about, again, something that has been delbierately downplayed and denied by many people, to promote war and even ethnic cleansing by encouraging a lack of sympathy? what have these people got to say about it? the ones who say the holocaust was a huge lie by the elite who control the world - the evidence doesn't say they benefitted from "tricking the world" about the holocaust, does it - quite the opposite! they havent got anything to say because they think it's a good thing, they view this and hitler's other views as right and want it to happen again. 

or the fact that immediately after one camp was liberated, allied soldiers left the camp in the hands of Ukrainian former SS officers for several weeks, which led to the massacre of tens of thousands of people? the fact that some polish anti-semites and fash collaborators killed thousands of Jews (and german civilians) after the war had "ended"? so many people have an interest in claiming these things never happened when they plainly did, and in blaming ONLY the germans! 

or the christian groups who play up the homosexuals in the nazi party and accuse gay people remembering the atrocities as trying to "highjack" the holocaust to promote gay rights, and meanwhile deny that gay people were even targetted? this DENIAL helps them to promote a sick agenda of homophobia and it's in their interest to say that there was no policy of a homophobic nature and over-estimate the role of gay people in the nazi party. Blame the victims.  

It's in many people's interest to try and downplay the holocaust and try and make out that their country didn't do anything wrong during the war, or to say that there wasn't a plan to kill certain people, or even that those people deserved it, and it was for "self defence" 

Its not "harmless", its not "eccentric". it is downright dangerous and has been throughout the 60 years since the end of world war 2, TOO EASY to deny or even justify these things or attempt to carry on the murderous policy. This is especially true where gypsies are concerned. Its not the harmless eccentric ideas of a bumbling fool. it can be used and is used to justify and legitimise fascism and mass murder.


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

pk said:


> Some people, although nice in themselves, will remain forever hopelessly naive and susceptible to all sorts of daftness, if it makes them feel important and wanted.



  

David Cole is one of them ... the naive jewish kid who went around Auschwitz for a nazi group trying to claim that it was all a lie. 

its tokenism. the fash welcome these kind of "useful idiots" because they know it makes them look marginally better


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## 8den (Apr 19, 2008)

cesare said:


> I don't know anything much about that, tbh. But if you're expanding on the theme of "useful idiots", then yeah. Obvious innit.



Interesting read on Lyndon La Rouche and Webster Tarpley Here's the http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/ A young British Jewish 25yo, Jeremiah Duigan, who died in suspcious circumstances at a La Rouche conference.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 19, 2008)

I can't think of anyone I've ever seen who is a consistent holocaust denier who really meets the "useful idiot" criteria. Some dim "mind so open the brain falls out" types do for a bit, sometimes, but even they either learn from the experience or just shut up and never mention it again; they're short-term useful idiots at best. Every other person, from the lowliest poster on a message board, always ends up either abandoning the whole thing in an embarrassed fashion or exposing some really naked anti-semitism. Very quickly.

It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

8den said:


> Interesting read on Lyndon La Rouche and Webster Tarpley Here's the http://www.justiceforjeremiah.com/ A young British Jewish 25yo, Jeremiah Duigan, who died in suspcious circumstances at a La Rouche conference.



LaRouche = a murdering, fascist bastard. 

I've met Jeremiah Duggans mother. lovely, extroadinarily brave woman. the coverup by the german authorities is unbelievable, especailly given that it happened just a few years ago.


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## frogwoman (Apr 19, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can't think of anyone I've ever seen who is a consistent holocaust denier who really meets the "useful idiot" criteria. Some dim "mind so open the brain falls out" types do for a bit, sometimes, but even they either learn from the experience or just shut up and never mention it again; they're short-term useful idiots at best. Every other person, from the lowliest poster on a message board, always ends up either abandoning the whole thing in an embarrassed fashion or exposing some really naked anti-semitism. Very quickly.
> 
> It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.



yeah.


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## Y_I_Otter (Apr 19, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> David Cole is one of them ... the naive jewish kid who went around Auschwitz for a nazi group trying to claim that it was all a lie.
> 
> its tokenism. the fash welcome these kind of "useful idiots" because they know it makes them look marginally better



Nevermind that Cole went to great lengths to denounce "Holocaust Revisionism" in general and Zündel, who paid for his trip to A-B, in particular for the way Piper is portrayed in his "exposé". Of course, the deniers can't let go of any "good" thing and they claim-- absent any evidence whatever-- that Cole was threatened by the JDL to publish his recantation. With that neatly out of the way they continue to flood Youtube and their revisionist circle jerks with this hopelessly out-of-date misinformation.

It's not so different from their attitude towards the Protocols. The exact provenance of the Protocols has been a matter of public record since the 1920s, yet this matters very little to antisemites and conspiracy theorists. They will always counter with something like, "it doesn't matter that it's a forgery; it's _still_ the game plan used by Jews to control the world's media, banking etc.".

After a certain point, it's futile taking them on. Their antisemitism blinds them from what is obvious to anyone with an open mind.


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

There's far more to be gained from denying aspects of the holocaust than trying to "exaggerate" the numbers. the gypsies who were "allegedly"  murdered in WWII didn't benefit from being part of this magical elite which control the world - did they?


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2008)

...or the kids with disabilities....


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Or the mentally ill people, petty criminals (as opposed to the bigger criminals they released into the SS and police service, or even the ones in office) long term unemployed, alcoholics and drug addicts 

... not to mention the Nazis who were killed for thinking that Hitler wasnt going far enough ...


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2008)

....Jehovah's Witnesses...the list was endless


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:German_concentration_camp_chart_of_prisoner_markings.jpg


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Its so fucking sad


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2008)

Just after the war, many people didn't believe it partly because it was so huge and horrific, people just found it unimaginable. Also the fact that there had been such dreadful propaganda in the First World War (Germans bayoneting Belgian babies etc) they thought it was a way of completely demonising a vanquished nation (that initially included my dad). My dad's dad worked on de-nazification in Germany just after the war ended and told my dad stuff (and showed him first-hand evidence I think...he was not only a linguist but also a semi-pro photographer before the war) and my dad realised the ghastly enormity of the industrial killing. 

I think just after the war there was an excuse or at least an explanation at first for people just not accepting it happened, but not now. There's no excuse whatsoever now.


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Just after the war, many people didn't believe it partly because it was so huge and horrific, people just found it unimaginable. Also the fact that there had been such dreadful propaganda in the First World War (Germans bayoneting Belgian babies etc) they thought it was a way of completely demonising a vanquished nation (that initially included my dad). My dad's dad worked on de-nazification in Germany just after the war ended and told my dad stuff (and showed him first-hand evidence I think...he was not only a linguist but also a semi-pro photographer before the war) and my dad realised the ghastly enormity of the industrial killing.
> 
> I think just after the war there was an excuse or at least an explanation at first for people just not accepting it happened, but not now. There's no excuse whatsoever now.



Exactly, plenty of people wouldn't have believed it, it would have looked like more propaganda. Many Jews also didn't want to believe it. You can imagine why.  

But theres no excuse any more. Especially when so many of the killings weren't even carried out by Germany.


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## Y_I_Otter (Apr 20, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Or the mentally ill people, petty criminals (as opposed to the bigger criminals they released into the SS and police service, or even the ones in office) long term unemployed, alcoholics and drug addicts
> 
> ... not to mention the Nazis who were killed for thinking that Hitler wasnt going far enough ...




It's no coincidence that most of the people responsible for gassing "life unworthy of life" under the Tiergarten 4 program were able to find employment in Poland a few years later.


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## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> It's no coincidence that most of the people responsible for gassing "life unworthy of life" under the Tiergarten 4 program were able to find employment in Poland a few years later.



if anyone's "unworthy of life" it's someone who can do a thing like that, to innocent people, and sleep soundly in their bed at night. 

no conscience, no sense of remorse. 

unfuckingbelievable


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## Y_I_Otter (Apr 20, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> if anyone's "unworthy of life" it's someone who can do a thing like that, to innocent people, and sleep soundly in their bed at night.
> 
> no conscience, no sense of remorse.
> 
> unfuckingbelievable



It''s not as though it didn't bother all of them. A major reason for gassing was a result of the mental toll murdering innocents was having on dedicated killing units like the Einsatzgruppen. Alcoholism and suicide were rampant among them. I mean, a person can only lead naked civilians, with babies, to lie down in trenches on the twitching corpses of the recently executed and machine-gun them from above for so long before the last vestiges of huminity kick in. Among decent people, self-loathing and revulsion follows. A neater, more private, method of mass extermination had to be found. Enter the T4 veterans.


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## HarryinOz (Apr 20, 2008)

From BK post 46





> The most interesting but was when these two academics did some research into the mindset of conspiracy theorists. They asked a group of students some questions about trust levels, re. family, friends, support networks, colleagues, etc then on the basis of their answers, sorted them into two groups - one of which they thought would be much more likely to ''believe''.
> 
> Then they asked the two groups if they thought it was likely that the Govt could track you all the time via your phone and were doing so ( or something like that - they made up the theory anyway as a test).
> 
> As predicted, the ones with low levels of trust went for the theory.




I find that interesting and am quite sure that there is, at least some truth too it.


I also believe that a lot of the reasoning behind Jazzz's support of CT's (even in the face of overwhelming evidence) is his need to be noticed or to get attention. 
When he was a young fellow someone (his Mum?) taught him piano and music and I've no doubt he learned to like the attention from very early on in his life. 

Fela Fan on the other hand is just a weirdo. 

It's unfortunate that CTers, whether they realise it or not, whether it is done deliberately or not, are enablers and apologists for some of the most horrendous acts man has ever committed.
Whether they admit this to themselves or not, it is still a fact that they help these scumbag cunts by listening to them, giving them a platform to speak, supporting them and even worse by *defending them *(which is exactly what we are seeing on this thread)?

The (CTers) give these Holocaust Revisionists a platform and support for their fucked up ideas. 
A platform and support that they would otherwise not receive.

It's a damn shame that someone who so many here have met, and say is a genuinely nice guy in real life, is defending a person who is quite obviously trying to tell anyone who will listen that the slaughter of Jews in and around WW2 either didn't happen or was no where near as bad as what it really was.


To wit, I ask....
How can you defend this person Jazzz ? 
How can you defend the things this person has said?
How can you sit there and defend a person who has publicly said that "*You are quite right to call me a ‘denier’ in that I deny that anyone ever put Jews into gas chambers. That didn't happen ..."*
Why can you not just simply either denounce him or clearly separate yourself from his horrendous views? 

Is it because by doing so you will have to admit you were wrong?
Are you so needful (or addicted to) of attention that you believe you have to do this?

Why are these Conspiracy's so important to you that you will support someone who is not just wrong but who is actively trying to change history to make the Holocaust a trivial matter or that it didn't happen at all?
What is it that makes a normal nice person support a such blatant and despicable acts (such as trivialising the Holocaust)?


BTW...it's a shame that this thread has deviated from it's original purpose, to take the piss out of, and in the biggest way possible of the fucktard Nick Kollerstrom.

Let the pisstaking continue


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## HarryinOz (Apr 20, 2008)




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## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can't think of anyone I've ever seen who is a consistent holocaust denier who really meets the "useful idiot" criteria. Some dim "mind so open the brain falls out" types do for a bit, sometimes, but even they either learn from the experience or just shut up and never mention it again; they're short-term useful idiots at best. Every other person, from the lowliest poster on a message board, always ends up either abandoning the whole thing in an embarrassed fashion or exposing some really naked anti-semitism. Very quickly.
> 
> It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.



*It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.*

Quite.

That's indeed what they are - short term 'useful idiots'. They go off like a rocket and everyone looks at them, focuses on them. Regular intervals. Icke, Irving, Kollerstrom. And people's response is exactly what you say ... focusing on the Holocaust issue. 'Focus on this outrageous idiocy, because we'd rather you did that'. 

So while we watch Kollerstrom being made into a deliberate short term useful idiot martyr to the cause, let's watch what carries on unabated in the meantime eh.


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## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

> "If international-finance Jewry inside and outside Europe should succeed once more in plunging the nations into yet another world war, the consequences will not be the Bolshevization of the earth and thereby the victory of Jewry, but the annihilation (vernichtung) of the Jewish race in Europe."



'International-finance Jewry' eh, Adolf? That'll be 'the elite', the Rothschilds, the Zionists, the whatever-you-want-to-call-it-to-make-it-acceptable-to-the-conspiracy-theorists.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

On another level (and incidentally) has anyone else noticed how this:



> Himmler ordered that, in the occupied Soviet areas, "sedentary Gypsies and part-Gypsies (Mischlinge) are to be treated as citizens of the country. Nomadic Gypsies and part-Gypsies are to be placed on the same level as Jews and placed in concentration camps."



plays out nowadays in terms of a rising expectation that nomadic gypsies should conform to 'our' society ... but the sedentary ones seem to be OK (ish). There's a classic thread on here from only a month or so ago, which entirely reflects this.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

And on yet another level, nobody has yet mentioned the Freemasons. Well we  (hah! 'we') aren't that keen on em generally. Secret Society and that. But there were a fuck load annihilated in the Holocaust because:



> In Mein Kampf, Hitler wrote that Freemasonry had "succumbed" to the Jews: "The general pacifistic paralysis of the national instinct of self-preservation begun by Freemasonry is then transmitted to the masses of society by the Jewish press." Freemasons were sent to concentration camps as political prisoners, and forced to wear an inverted red triangle. It is estimated that between 80,000 and 200,000 were killed.



And I notice that Freemasons figure highly in 'the elite' nowadays vaunted by the dual alliance of the conspiracy theorists and the fash.

--------------------------------------------------------------

Curious and interesting innit?


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## dylanredefined (Apr 20, 2008)

You learn something every day didnt know hitler hated the free masons .
No one tends to care about the roma probably because the only thing europeans have in common is a dislike of gypsys.


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## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> You learn something every day didnt know hitler hated the free masons .
> No one tends to care about the roma probably because the only thing europeans have in common is a dislike of gypsys.



All we can do is remember, and try and stop it happening again. It will though, it is already. 

The Berlin Wall came down and we rejoiced. There's no day to day reminder nowadays and our children are distanced.


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Here's a flyer, should be good to fit two on a sheet of A4






The link is here - download and repost if it disappears.

http://www.imagehost.ro/pict/20110931480afa3c590d3.jpg

Might be up for sticking a few of these up next week around UCL.


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## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

nice, mind if i use it on my blog


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## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

Jesus wept, when did this site turn into the left's answer to redwatch? Some of you aren't gonna come out of this looking particularly good IMO.


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

smokedout said:


> nice, mind if i use it on my blog



Of course not!


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## The Black Hand (Apr 20, 2008)

pk said:


> Here's a flyer, should be good to fit two on a sheet of A4
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well done PK.


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Jesus wept, when did this site turn into the left's answer to redwatch? Some of you aren't gonna come out of this looking particularly good IMO.






			
				Nicholas Kollerstrom said:
			
		

> Zyklon-B was used at Auschwitz, as an insecticide. It was vital in attempting to maintain hygiene that mattresses be deloused.





> There was, in contrast, never a centrally-coordinated Nazi program of exterminating Jews in Germany. Lethal gas chambers did not function in German labour-camps, that's just an illusion.








http://codoh.com/newrevoices/nrnktrip.html

http://www.blairwatch.co.uk/node/2014

Fuck him.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

I don't think persecuting someone for their opinons is worth congratulating tbh. What kind of people in history used to do that?... oh hang on...


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## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

pk said:


> Of course not!



done


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't think persecuting someone for their opinons is worth congratulating tbh. What kind of people in history used to do that?... oh hang on...



Not as if he's being rounded up and sent to a gas chamber though is it?

No. Hopefully just prevented from holding a teaching/researcher position to allow him to spread his anti-semitic "the holocaust never happened" bullshit.

He justifies this shit with the PHD after his name, thereby giving an air of credibility to his conspiracy theories.

As I said - fuck him.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

There was a big fucking out cry on here at the mere possibility of ernie keeping people's personal details for sinister purposes so pardon me if the hypocrisy sticks in the throat a little...


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> There was a big fucking out cry on here at the mere possibility of ernie keeping people's personal details for sinister purposes so pardon me if the hypocrisy sticks in the throat a little...



What the hell does this have to do with him??


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## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> There was a big fucking out cry on here at the mere possibility of ernie keeping people's personal details for sinister purposes so pardon me if the hypocrisy sticks in the throat a little...



were those people holocaust deniers holding a prestigious position at a london university?


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## Mrs Magpie (Apr 20, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> A neater, more private, method of mass extermination had to be found.


Actually gassing started before the war ever started, very early on (1933 or 1934 iirc). The gassing of 'useless eaters' ie disabled children in Hadamar.

eta.
This was long before the T4 thing in Hadamar psychiatric hospital later in the war. There was a documentary about it on the BBC about 15 years ago....it was a home for children with disabilities.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

Oh, right, different rules apply to you guys ok  and gas chamber or not, none of you can know the long term implications of taking away his livelihood for thought crimes.


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## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, right, different rules apply to you guys ok  and gas chamber or not, none of you can know the long term implications of taking away his livelihood for thought crimes.



politics isnt a fucking game, he chose to publish those views and now hes facing the consequences


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## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

Yes, because you have persecuted him for his opinions. Who does that remind you of smokedout, ring any bells yet?


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## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, right, different rules apply to you guys ok  and gas chamber or not, none of you can know the long term implications of taking away his livelihood for thought crimes.



It's not a "thought crime" if he's publically publishing these lies all over the internet.

If he can justify the comments to the board at UCL, then the problem lies with them. If they're happy to have a nazi apologist and holocaust denier representing their faculty then that is a matter for them.

If they're not - then he should have considered that before repeating the vile filth put about by David Irving and similar Nazi-loving cunts.

Fuck him.


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## Fullyplumped (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Oh, right, different rules apply to you guys ok  and gas chamber or not, none of you can know the long term implications of taking away his livelihood for thought crimes.


Nobody's talking about "taking away his livelihood for thought crimes". There is some enthusiasm for widening awareness in the academy of his interesting and radical interpretation of the historical evidence - the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play. 

I do think that the garish poster is a bit Redwatch-y. If anyone should take action it is the University, not a mob of malodorous students.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Actually gassing started before the war ever started, very early on (1933 or 1934 iirc). The gassing of 'useless eaters' ie disabled children in Hadamar.
> 
> eta.
> This was long before the T4 thing in Hadamar psychiatric hospital later in the war. There was a documentary about it on the BBC about 15 years ago....it was a home for children with disabilities.



This is true, but i would argue that the Nazis were just _continuing_ (though clearly stepping up the pace) what had been German state policy since at least WW1. The widespread acceptance, even dominance, of eurgenicist idea amongst the health, and social policy etc 'experts' of the Weimar Republic combined with the 'scientisation' of social issues in the most terrible and absolute way post-1933. The nazis made use of _already existing weapons_ to carry out their atrocities.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Contacting educational facilities is a trick Kollerstrom uses, it seems:



> According to my teenager's homework, it seems to be Holocaust week at school again, so all the non-Jewish kids will be learning the Jewish version of it.
> What do you do when a public institution teaches something is a fact that you believe is not a fact?
> Well, you can always call the teacher or write a letter, which will have no effect other than to get you a reputation as a dangerous nut.
> No school will change its policy on this because of any information you cite to them; even if they secretly agree with you, they do not have the courage.



Let's see if UCL have the courage to enforce its own policy.


----------



## boskysquelch (Apr 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This is true, but i would argue that the Nazis were just _continuing_ (though clearly stepping up the pace) what had been German state policy since at least WW1.



_& the rest_... http://www.litkicks.com/WBYeats/


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

Fair enough, but i see it as the thin end of the wedge. What if someone were to come knocking on my door for having marxist leanings? I'd hardly be in a position to complain if i support this kind of shit would I?


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Fair enough, but i see it as the thin end of the wedge. What if someone were to come knocking on my door for having marxist leanings? I'd hardly be in a position to complain if i support this kind of shit would I?



What are the alternatives?

Let this guy continue publishing anti-Semitic holocaust denial with the backing and the apparent authority of University College London?

Let's be clear about this guy - he's showed up to public meetings of 7/7 survivors and heckled people, he's put his head above the parapet many times, and seems proud to publish his "no Jews were gassed" papers online.

If he's stripped of his educational credibility then it lessens the effect of his poisonous ideas, he becomes just another loon mate of Jazzz, as opposed to what he is now, a researcher in a respected university.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

I don't support getting someone sacked any more than I'm repelled by his vile views. I understand why you're doing it but that doesn't mean i find persecuting someone particularly tastefull. This is all a bit news of the world IMO.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 20, 2008)

*UCL were only informed on Friday: give them a chance, eh? It's the weekend.*
They knew nada about this from what I hear on grapevine and are deeply shocked.


Am at inlaws on borrowed compter so can only pop in for 5 mins but wanted to sound note of caution


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> He may not realise it because he's so immersed in it.



Good point.  This is NOT aimed at Jazz in particular but is a comment on the whole internet CT phenomenon.

CT's seem to be like drugs and alcohol. When someone gets so into their chosen drug whether it be substances or a particular CT and hangs around with that crowd who reinforce the enjoyment of the drug or the CT it becomes very difficult to see another point of view or to step back and have an 'oh fuck what have I done' moment.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This is true, but i would argue that the Nazis were just _continuing_ (though clearly stepping up the pace) what had been German state policy since at least WW1. The widespread acceptance, even dominance, of eurgenicist idea amongst the health, and social policy etc 'experts' of the Weimar Republic combined with the 'scientisation' of social issues in the most terrible and absolute way post-1933. The nazis made use of _already existing weapons_ to carry out their atrocities.



Good point there Butchers.  There were particular economic and sociological mindsets and conditions in the Germans which the aftermath of WW1 exacerbated and particularly in the asylums you started to get the concept of 'ballast existences' becoming much more popular.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't support getting someone sacked any more than I'm repelled by his vile views. I understand why you're doing it but that doesn't mean i find persecuting someone particularly tastefull. This is all a bit news of the world IMO.



I would support his sacking for the reasons I stated above.

I would support his jailing should he ever visit Germany or Austria.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

So you also support the jailing of marxists in cuntries like Chile when their views didn't fit with the ones of the regime? Like I said, it's the thin end of the wedge.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> So you also support the jailing of marxists in cuntries like Chile when their views didn't fit with the ones of the regime? Like I said, it's the thin end of the wedge.



No, far from it. 

However I would support the sacking and/or jailing of people who might publish papers and web pages denying that thousands of people were killed by the facist junta in Chile and Argentina, who were trained by the US and supervised by Henry Kissinger with the full knowledge of Richard Nixon.

Put them in the Plaza Del Mayo in Buenos Aries along with the Grandmothers of the Disappeared and let them deny that these woman had their children killed.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 20, 2008)

Because of the internet buzz about NK it is my understanding that several people independently got in touch with various people at various levels at UCL late last week,   Friday, and it is my understanding that this was the first UCL knew about the fact that one of their research fellows was a holocast denier.

He doesn't teach students thank God though have no idea if he is running 'Truth' meetings on camps or giving speeches or disseminating material about his views.

I think we need to let the Uni have time to look at it and discuss it - it is the weekend after all.

What they do is up to them but it is not fair to assme they condone this or knew anything about NK's hateful views. Let's wait and see.

Won't be able able to answer PmS til tonight sorry as on useless broken laptop with shite keyboard


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> What they do is up to them but it is not fair to assme they condone this or knew anything about NK's hateful views. Let's wait and see.



Fair play - and I don't think for a second UCL would knowingly employ a holocaust denier, and certainly don't believe they would condone such ideas.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

And to be fair to Gosling and the nineeleven.co.uk forum, they've left a thread regarding this issue up, to allow Kollerstrom to (try!) defend himself, and Gosling has made his objections to the holocaust denials quite clear.

http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=115675&sid=163980f27ec70cbf524489abdbd83e93


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2008)

pk said:


> And to be fair to Gosling and the nineeleven.co.uk forum, they've left a thread regarding this issue up, to allow Kollerstrom to (try!) defend himself, and Gosling has made his objections to the holocaust denials quite clear.
> 
> http://www.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=115675&sid=163980f27ec70cbf524489abdbd83e93



Only after banning me and deleting my posts asking about this exact same subject - posts that were on the correct thread, the one that he says is the only one in which he's allowing mention of the Holocaust and certain people's denial of it (and his linking to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on his own site). So it looks to me like  a rather _belated_ realisation that he/they cannot forcibly sweep this under the carpet, despite his earlier best attempts to do precisely that. And so this



> We need to be self-critical as a movement.
> Or we will be no better than the bullies and fascists we have taken on.
> This is an important issue IMO so let others comment if they wish.
> *It's important not to lock/stifle this one. *
> Nick can respond in his own time if he wants.



Looks more than little pathetic, and resembles nothing so much as hypocrtical and self-serving cant to me. It's clear that he'll only allow debate that he can personally set the parameters of and is happy too do exactly what he accuses various authorities of doing.


----------



## nino_savatte (Apr 20, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> History tells us that quite a few OIRA and PIRA members were "plastic paddies", including a certain John Stevenson, aka _Sean Macstiofain_.



Yep.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Only after banning me and deleting my posts asking about this exact same subject - posts that were on the correct thread, the one that he says is the only one in which he's allowing mention of the Holocaust and certain people's denial of it (and his linking to the Protocols of the Elders of Zion on his own site). So it looks to me like  a rather _belated_ realisation that he/they cannot forcibly sweep this under the carpet, despite his earlier best attempts to do precisely that. And so this
> 
> 
> 
> Looks more than little pathetic, and resembles nothing so much as hypocrtical and self-serving cant to me. It's clear that he'll only allow debate that he can personally set the parameters of and is happy too do exactly what he accuses various authorities of doing.



Ah, I see.

Looks elsewhere like after the holocaust threads were deleted people are now asking for evidence they ever existed, making out Badger Kitten invented them.



Incidentally, University College London houses the largest department of Hebrew and Jewish Studies in Europe.

I think Mr. Kollerstrom should be emptying his desk sometime next week.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I don't support getting someone sacked any more than I'm repelled by his vile views. I understand why you're doing it but that doesn't mean i find persecuting someone particularly tastefull. This is all a bit news of the world IMO.



whilst i dont agree with jailing holocaust deniers i have no problem if he loses his job and tbh if he doesnt then i reckon ucl are fair game as well

he exposed himself, he published articles in his own name, using his phd, he put pictures of himself on the web

whilct pk's converys information its also satirical and thats what media does, makes information available, satirises, criticises, argues

if he cant take that then he shouldnt be publishing on the bearpit that is the internet

im currently being accused of being a shill, mossad agent, cointelpro etc, im not running home crying but accepting it as a consequence of something i published, daft as it is

its called freedom of speech


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

Well I am a mossad agent, member of cointelpro and also involved in deep level black ops.

Though would never admit it.

It's all true. We are after them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Actually gassing started before the war ever started, very early on (1933 or 1934 iirc). The gassing of 'useless eaters' ie disabled children in Hadamar.
> 
> eta.
> This was long before the T4 thing in Hadamar psychiatric hospital later in the war. There was a documentary about it on the BBC about 15 years ago....it was a home for children with disabilities.



Have you read Gitta Sereny's "The German Trauma", Mrs. M? 
It's partly about how she came to write "Into That Darkness: From Mercy Killing to Mass Murder", her biography of Franz Stangl. She also talks about some of her background research for it, and her work after the war returning kidnapped "Aryan" children to their real parents.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Jesus wept, when did this site turn into the left's answer to redwatch?


Rather an exaggeration, don't you think? 
After all, Redwatch denounces anyone with even vague associations to leftism whose details they can get. This thread is about *ONE* person who is abusing his academic credentials to promote falsehood.


> Some of you aren't gonna come out of this looking particularly good IMO.


What makes you think anyone i worried about having your good opinion?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Fair enough, but i see it as the thin end of the wedge. What if someone were to come knocking on my door for having marxist leanings? I'd hardly be in a position to complain if i support this kind of shit would I?



You would actually have to hold and to *express* "Marxist leanings" for that to happen in this police state you appear to be fantasising.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> *It's just _too_ obvious that it's shite.*
> 
> Quite.
> 
> ...




Caution eh? Give the UCL time to sort it out themselves. It's a clever leaflet PK, but give it some time.


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 20, 2008)

smokedout said:


> ...
> im currently being accused of being a shill, mossad agent, cointelpro etc, im not running home crying but accepting it as a consequence of something i published, daft as it is
> 
> its called freedom of speech



Got a link? I'm always intrigued about what can get people accused of being a shill...


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

What's a shill?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 20, 2008)

Typically a shill would be a person planted in an audience of potential customers for something who's colluding with the seller by pretending to be a disinterested party.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Ta


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 20, 2008)

He's replied on the thread and his entire post has about three lines about the Holocaust, the rest is irrelevant bollocks about how it (since it's clearly a hoax) has been used to justify, well, everything.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> He's replied on the thread and his entire post has about three lines about the Holocaust, the rest is irrelevant bollocks about how it (since it's clearly a hoax) has been used to justify, well, everything.



That's not how I read it, tbh.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2008)

Here's two very well known, very detailed analysis of the Leucther and Germar Rudolf 'reports' that NK seems to base almost his entire 'argument' on:

Chemistry is not the science: Rudolf, Rhetoric and Reduction

The Chemistry of Auschtwitz

They are long, involved and detailed but they7 are both worth taking the time to read through.

Rudolf is shown to be dishonest across the board by the same author here - caught out referencing pseudonyms of his own to support his own work and so on.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 20, 2008)

The first two paragraphs accept that he denies the holocaust and claims that the nerve gas was used for delousing alone.

3 = The hundreds of thousands of Jews who were starved to death weren't as significant as the millions of Germans who did later.

4 = Freedom!11!

5= Evil Israel and Germans

6 = They were mean to me and i'm not a bigot, buy my book!

7 = It's just like 9/11

8 = Here's my proof.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 20, 2008)

Aha, wonder if it's worth asking if that thread is intended for discussion or just as a way for NK to state his position.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> Caution eh? Give the UCL time to sort it out themselves. It's a clever leaflet PK, but give it some time.



To be honest, anything happening will depend on what kind of contract he is on.  If its a permanent research contract there may be some disciplinary process - along the lines of making sure he doesn't use UCL in any of his loon activities.  To be honest, I'd be surprised if he got sacked for it.  He's obviously some kind of obsessive and would portray himself as a 9/11 martyr - as well as going to be tribunals.  They _might _go down that route, but only if there is a significant enough fuss from the students, press, Board of Deputies etc. 

If he's on short term project-by-project contracts, they may just fail to re-employ him and his name will disappear off the web site.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2008)

More:

A Study of the Cyanide Compounds Content In The Walls Of The Gas Chambers in the Former Auschwitz and Birkenau Concentration Camps

 Body Disposal at Auschwitz: The End of Holocaust-Denial


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> It''s not as though it didn't bother all of them. A major reason for gassing was a result of the mental toll murdering innocents was having on dedicated killing units like the Einsatzgruppen. Alcoholism and suicide were rampant among them. I mean, a person can only lead naked civilians, with babies, to lie down in trenches on the twitching corpses of the recently executed and machine-gun them from above for so long before the last vestiges of huminity kick in. Among decent people, self-loathing and revulsion follows. A neater, more private, method of mass extermination had to be found. Enter the T4 veterans.



aye. a lot of the people in the einsatzgruppen would have thought they were signing up to do something great for the country, fired up by nazi propaganda and rage against allied bombing of their country, being stabbed in the back by the enemy of germany the jews, and other things.  

and then ... reality would have set in.


----------



## snadge (Apr 20, 2008)

> There is deep-level mind-control programming which kicks in if one tries to discuss this topic



that says it all for me......from NK in his rationale.


----------



## biff curtains (Apr 20, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> To be honest, anything happening will depend on what kind of contract he is on.  If its a permanent research contract there may be some disciplinary process - along the lines of making sure he doesn't use UCL in any of his loon activities.  To be honest, I'd be surprised if he got sacked for it.  He's obviously some kind of obsessive and would portray himself as a 9/11 martyr - as well as going to be tribunals.  They _might _go down that route, *but only if there is a significant enough fuss from the students, press, Board of Deputies etc.*
> 
> If he's on short term project-by-project contracts, they may just fail to re-employ him and his name will disappear off the web site.



It would be worth contacting the board of deputies wouldn't it? Not to mention the Jewish Chronicle


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 20, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> It would be worth contacting the board of deputies wouldn't it? Not to mention the Jewish Chronicle



The JC is pretty good on exposing Holocaust denial scum. B o D may also be able to put pressure on as well.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 20, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> To be honest, anything happening will depend on what kind of contract he is on.



Of course but the mere fact he used his (not even history-related) academic title to give an air of credibility to his rants, should result in an official reprimand. 

salaam.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> You learn something every day didnt know hitler hated the free masons .
> No one tends to care about the roma probably because the only thing europeans have in common is a dislike of gypsys.



yep 

With the holocaust there's a common perception that it was simply "the germans" wanted to kill "the jews". unfortunately zionist groups often haven't helped in promoting the idea of the holocaust as a purely "jewish" tragedy. The gypsies and other groups I mentioned that Hitler (and others) wanted to wipe out are almost like an afterthought. *Hitler killed 6 MILLION JEWS *everone ... 

and a few gypsies and slavic people but who cares about them really.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_State_of_Croatia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romania_during_World_War_II 




			
				romanian gov't said:
			
		

> Of all the allies of Nazi Germany, Romania bears responsibility for the deaths of more Jews than any country other than Germany itself. The murders committed in Iasi, Odessa, Bogdanovka, Domanovka, and Peciora, for example, were among the most hideous murders committed against Jews anywhere during the Holocaust. Romania committed genocide against the Jews. The survival of Jews in some parts of the country does not alter this reality.[3]



serious anti-jewish discrimination still continues in romania today.

we must never forget, we must never forgive the fash for what they did or accept fascism in any form, no matter what country it is coming from. fascism as an ideology should be constantly fought against.


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

From the horses mouth:




			
				Nick Kollerstrom said:
			
		

> I would say that the very existence of the state of Israel depends upon sustaining the vast untruth and calumny against the German people, that they – as was alleged at Nuremberg in 1946 - put Jews into homicidal gas chambers. My opinion, which you don’t have to agree with, is that they didn’t. At Nuremberg in 1946 any discussion of the huge quantities of Zyklon-B (liquid cyanide absorbed onto clay) used in the German labour-camps was predicated on the assumption that it was for human murder: whereas we may now apprehend something different, viz that it was actually used for delousing mattresses & clothes, as part of the struggle against typhus. Those actual gas chambers endure today – but you don’t get shown round them on a visit!
> 
> Permit me also to express the view, that the hundreds of thousands of Jews who died in these labour-camps under terrible conditions are hardly to be compared with the millions of Germans who died under equally or maybe worse conditions. ‘The Holocaust’ if that word has any meaning should apply to the systematic city-incineration practiced by the allies in WW2, the most frightful war-crime ever conceived by man. The story dreamed up of human gassing meant that the Allies could walk away on the moral high ground without the city-bombing even having to be mentioned at Nuremberg. For a long time most decent people would never consider that the US/UK would ever create an untruth so frightful, however after the lies brewed up to get us into war with Iraq I think more people are open to this possibility.



Fuck him.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

thats disgusting. of course britain bombed dresden and committed other atrocities, but it hardly makes us the same as the nazi government does it.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Got a link? I'm always intrigued about what can get people accused of being a shill...



indymedia have hidden most of the comments now but you can read em here


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

> I would say that the very existence of the state of Israel depends upon sustaining the vast untruth and calumny against the German people, that they – as was alleged at Nuremberg in 1946 - put Jews into homicidal gas chambers.



As for this, the state of israel would have been founded whether or not the holocaust happened at all, IMO. the holocaust just gives the zionist project legitimacy that it would not have otherwise have had, but it was definitely on its way to statehood even prior to WWII.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2008)

Blimey, he's a global warming 'denier' as well!

http://www.astro3.demon.co.uk/


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 20, 2008)

smokedout said:


> indymedia have hidden most of the comments now but you can read em here



Fuckin loons mate. This made me laugh tho:



> A Personal Message
> 19.04.2008 23:09
> 
> It has just come to my attention that certain websites have recently attempted to imply that any 'Conspiraloons™' who harbour doubts about the official narratives of 9/11 and 7/7 are almost certainly holocaust deniers as well
> ...


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 20, 2008)

rofl!!!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 20, 2008)

Hehehehe


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 20, 2008)

Its the last paragraph that is the most LOL.



"forward thinking nazi"


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Its the last paragraph that is the most LOL.
> 
> 
> 
> "forward thinking nazi"



  I was waiting for "Fascists died too on 9/11 y'know"


----------



## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

Kollerstrum speaks


----------



## smokedout (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> What's a shill?



i had a discussion about this on jon ronsons boards (who also got accused of being a shill)

no-one seems to know where it came from but my guess is to 'take the filthy shilling'

ie someone whos sold out to the british state


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> You would actually have to hold and to *express* "Marxist leanings" for that to happen in this police state you appear to be fantasising.



It's not a fantasy though is it? There's no guarantees that this country will never shift rapidly further to the right creating the conditions for those things to happen. I'm in a militant trades union ffs I understand the implications.



ViolentPanda said:


> Rather an exaggeration, don't you think?
> After all, Redwatch denounces anyone with even vague associations to leftism whose details they can get. This thread is about *ONE* person who is abusing his academic credentials to promote falsehood.
> 
> What makes you think anyone i worried about having your good opinion?



So you're proud of this little witch hunt of yours, well done. I'm entitled to express an opinion on it btw which I have. It reeks of hypocrisy. Nuff said.

You're obviously 'bothered' by it or you wouldn't have retorted


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Well you've made your views felt now C66 clearly thus guaranteeing your survival if the great day ever dawned etc 

-------------
smokedout, you wanna spell check that blog entry


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> So you're proud of this little witch hunt of yours, well done. I'm entitled to express an opinion on it btw which I have. It reeks of hypocrisy. Nuff said.



Correction: All that is done is commenting on a hypocrite academic who shamelessly abuses his academic title (obtained in a non-related field to history at that) to underscore inventions he presents as if they would be historical fact.

salaam.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Fuckin loons mate. This made me laugh tho:


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

biff curtains said:


> It would be worth contacting the board of deputies wouldn't it? Not to mention the Jewish Chronicle



The JC, yes, but I wouldn't waste the effort on the BDBJ, they're as much use as a chocolate teapot.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> It's not a fantasy though is it? There's no guarantees that this country will never shift rapidly further to the right creating the conditions for those things to happen. I'm in a militant trades union ffs I understand the implications.


There's no guarantee of anything, but my point was more aimed at *you* not having to worry about being taken away in the middle of the night. You're hardly well-known, at least on these boards, for your militant Marxism.


> So you're proud of this little witch hunt of yours, well done.


What "little witch hunt" is that? 
Come on, actually set out your argument, justify using such a term.


> I'm entitled to express an opinion on it btw which I have. It reeks of hypocrisy. Nuff said.


Yep, you're entitled to that, I'm entitled to state that you're (as usual) full of self-satisfied shit.


> You're obviously 'bothered' by it or you wouldn't have retorted


If it makes you feel better to believe that, the feel free to do so.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 20, 2008)

Like I said, give UCL time to react. Everything I hear suggests they are on it and didn't know until Friday and couldnt be taking it more seriously.

Fair play to them.

 I got no probs with this being  a wall of sound on the net next week and after and going massive online since that is where these people derive much of their comfort  - *but I do think UCL should remain above  criticism,* since everything I hear anecdotally from those who have flagged this up suggests they are now 100% on the case, and I guess it is up to them to speak to the relevant people and get meetings in diary to decide on whatever course of action they think best. And that can take time - they knew of this on Friday late afternoon from what I hear.

The ramifications for the ''Truth'' movement may well be huge - but as far as UCL go - they're an innocent party who appear to be shocked and doing all they can to resolve this fairly and quickly.

Thanks to all those who have been in contact to say that they have alerted UCL to the fact that they have a holocaust-denier in their midst, writing in his own name citing his PhD denying the industrial extermination of millions on high-traffic sites.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> Well you've made your views felt now C66 clearly thus guaranteeing your survival if the great day ever dawned etc



I hope you're not implying that Citizen would welcome our jack-booted overlords?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 20, 2008)

As to the ''witch hunt'' allegations....

He is writing as ''Nick Kollerstrom PhD'', not as ''Astro3'' . He put it out there.

He wanted a reaction. I will remind people of how he himself suggested writing to academic institutions when you have a problem with what they put out ( in his case, teaching school kids about the Holocaust)

He put it out on the internet. He puts it out in real life. What, and we can't respond?



Fullyplumped said:


> "Grassing" is what you do if you are telling tales or trying to get someone into trouble.
> 
> But this isn't "grassing", it's disclosing abuse. Telling an academic institution that one of their staff may be a holocaust denier and racist who harasses the victims of crime and is trading on his relationship with the institution is a positive public service. It is for the University to decide what they think of the information, to judge for themselves whether he's just "spouting nonsense," and to investigate for themselves whether they want to address their employee's conduct. I for one am concerned to think that the University may be unaware of their associate's activities, and would welcome their being put right.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Correction: All that is done is commenting on a hypocrite academic who shamelessly abuses his academic title (obtained in a non-related field to history at that) to underscore inventions he presents as if they would be historical fact.
> 
> salaam.



Exactly. It's would only be a "witch hunt" if a person were being persecuted for something they were entirely innocent of. Dr Kollerstrom freely admits to promoting a historically inaccurate set of ideas as though they were proven historical fact.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I hope you're not implying that Citizen would welcome our jack-booted overlords?



It was more of a 'o rly? Like they wouldn't do that in any event if yer such a _militant trade unionist_ an all' ... I'm rubbish with the sarcasm tbf


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Like I said, give UCL time to react. Everything I hear suggests they are on it and didn't know until Friday and couldnt be taking it more seriously.
> 
> Fair play to them.
> 
> I got no probs with this being  a wall of sound on the net next week and after and going massive online since that is where these people derive much of their comfort  - *but I do think UCL should remain above  criticism,* since everything I hear anecdotally from those who have flagged this up suggests they are now 100% on the case, and I guess it is up to them to speak to the relevant people and get meetings in diary to decide on whatever course of action they think best. And that can take time - they knew of this on Friday late afternoon from what I hear.


I agree about UCL. They're highly unlikely to know about hosting contentious material on their servers because their users will have had to sign T & Cs that prohibit "material likely to offend", and as for a response from their faculties, I strongly suspect they'll be sitting down with the provost and their lawyers to review the situation.


> The ramifications for the ''Truth'' movement may well be huge - but as far as UCL go - they're an innocent party who appear to be shocked and doing all they can to resolve this fairly and quickly.
> 
> Thanks to all those who have been in contact to say that they have alerted UCL to the fact that they have a holocaust-denier in their midst, writing in his own name citing his PhD denying the industrial extermination of millions on high-traffic sites.


What saddens me is that someone who presents themselves as a credible academic could buy into the Leuchter fantasy when research using well-proven analytical techniques by the Krakow Institute for Forensic Research showed residual traces of Prussian Blue throughout the gas chambers, but not in the residential quarters (which, if you were delousing, you'd also fumigate, given the propensity of lice to inflitrate just about anywhere).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 20, 2008)

cesare said:


> It was more of a 'o rly? Like they wouldn't do that in any event if yer such a _militant trade unionist_ an all' ... I'm rubbish with the sarcasm tbf



Belonging to a "militant trade union ffs" doesn't necessarily make one a militant trade unionist though, does it (thinks of Nottinghamshire scab miners, froths at mouth)?


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Belonging to a "militant trade union ffs" doesn't necessarily make one a militant trade unionist though, does it (thinks of Nottinghamshire scab miners, froths at mouth)?



Heh, aye


----------



## pk (Apr 20, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I hope you're not implying that Citizen would welcome our jack-booted overlords?



Ah c'mon, Citizen66 is as repulsed by this pro-nazi shit as anyone else, and besides, he does have a point...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 20, 2008)

yeah, citizen aint a nazi.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, citizen aint a nazi.



That's not going to be a helpful post when the great day dawns tbh 

(((Citizen66)))


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

lots of acedemics present their theories  as fact alderban, it's nothing new.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

Dont hug me cesare theres a good chap


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 20, 2008)

Check the thread title love

Its not about you.
Eh? Eh. 

Eh.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Dont hug me cesare theres a good chap



lol


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

are you talking to me ba? its a public board and ive never suggested it is about me! lol


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

bk i mean.


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> are you talking to me *ba?* its a public board and ive never suggested it is about me! lol



Fined one internetz point lol


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Twit


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 20, 2008)

my pc is fucked and im struggling to post with a psp cesare but call me silly names if you want and my pc is fixed and i can type more than a few words a minute i'll gladly wipe the fucking floor whth you


----------



## cesare (Apr 20, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> my pc is fucked and im struggling to post with a psp cesare but call me silly names if you want and my pc is fixed and i can type more than a few words a minute i'll gladly wipe the fucking floor whth you



*inserts mandy rice davies pic and waits for C66 to willfully derail thread further*


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 21, 2008)

I notice there wasn't any complaints about derails when bk and alderban spent several pages quibbling over semantics. but youre right and im off to bed. as you were etc


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

There was a point to that though, re sorting out what was meant. You've registered your disapproval in unequivocal terms, fine. Unless you want to actually add something.


----------



## MikeMcc (Apr 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> lots of acedemics present their theories as fact alderban, it's nothing new.


Doesn't stop this particular theory being complete and utter shit though does it?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> lots of acedemics present their theories  as fact alderban, it's nothing new.



Academics tend to limit their theories-as-fact pronouncements to subjects within their field of expertise. And then peer-review comes into play. 

Holocaust deniers like Kollerstrom rarely, if ever, subject themselves to that sort of academic rigour, for reasons patently obvious to anyone familiar with their ouevre. Their intent is not to "set the historical record straight" but to bash Jews and exonerate mass murderers.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Their intent is not to "set the historical record straight" but to bash Jews and exonerate mass murderers.



And create gold, through alchemy, by watching the stars and the moon.



> The origins of 'lunacy'
> 
> The words 'lunacy' and 'lunatic' stem from the Latin word luna, meaning 'Moon', and the Roman goddess Luna


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

A measure odf the quality of his defenders on Gosling's site and a reimnder of just how far they've passed from normaility:



> Would those who believe Nick is a racist, anti-semite and nazi sympathiser care to post specific quotes from Nick's writings or other evidence that led them to conclude this *or would you say that everyone who 'denies the holocaust' is automatically a racist, anti-semite and nazi-sympathiser?*



Uh...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh yeah, and here's a shock. NK's outing is part of a...wait for it..._conspiracy_ to undemine 7/7 'questioners' credibility/.


----------



## quarsan (Apr 21, 2008)

I've been called a "Mossad agent" and a Nazi, not just by the same person, but in the same sentence.

Guess that makes me part of the world's smallest minority.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> A measure odf the quality of his defenders on Gosling's site and a reimnder of just how far they've passed from normaility:
> 
> 
> 
> Uh...



No, of course not, they're simply trying to defend the reich from unclean elements who seek to make people think it wasn't such an aryan paradise after all ...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah, and here's a shock. NK's outing is part of a...wait for it..._conspiracy_ to undemine 7/7 'questioners' credibility/.



The loons are all cross and falling out with each other on their board. See Blairwatch


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

quarsan said:


> I've been called a "Mossad agent" and a Nazi, not just by the same person, but in the same sentence.
> 
> Guess that makes me part of the world's smallest minority.



So have I


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

I'm convinced. 

Joseph Mengele's pioneering work with twins was in no way macabre or sadistic torture either, he was the friendly doctor at the happy holiday camp, whilt resident frolicked in swimming pools and painted pretty pictures.

Why would those nasty doubters think the top secret nazi papers found after the war referred to the logistical problems of exterminating millions of people?

They were obviously referring to headlice!

Its all so clear, we've been such fools, thank God for truth seekers everywhere!


----------



## Frampton (Apr 21, 2008)

We really are up to our necks in a surveillance society, aren't we?

One day maybe we will have a free education system - particularly in higher education, where people are free to put forward ideas - however distasteful and untrue they are - without feeling they will face the loss of their livelihood.

But then if people can dismiss free speech as bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite their isn't much hope is there? I'd still like to know who and how restricted speech is to be policed? And what is going to happen to those academics who are apologists for Marxist atrocities? Creationists? Islamic fundamentalists?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

How about you start a different thread? This thread is about Nick Kollerstrom being a holocaust denier


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

i think that if you hold a set of beliefs, and not only that, spout your views all over the internet, under your own name, you should be prepared to face the consequences of those beliefs ...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> But then if people can dismiss free speech as bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite their isn't much hope is there? I'd still like to know who and how restricted speech is to be policed? And what is going to happen to those academics who are apologists for Marxist atrocities? Creationists? Islamic fundamentalists?



which ones are those then? I dont see any


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> But then if people can dismiss free speech as bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite their isn't much hope is there? I'd still like to know who and how restricted speech is to be policed? And what is going to happen to those academics who are apologists for Marxist atrocities? Creationists? Islamic fundamentalists?




Is this guy apologizing for the Nazis? No he's *flat out denying* that "any Jew was put in a gas chamber". He's doing this while flaunting his academic credentials and urging people to challenge the "myth" of the holocaust in other academic institutions. All we're doing is asking that he accepts a dose of his own medicine.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

So, in summary, the best the conspiraloons have been able to do is

a) Hide threads where people on their site deny the Holocaust
b) Make it a bannable offence on their boards to mention the holocaust
c) Call people who point out that their number contains Holocaust-deniers ''M15/Mossad'' and ''Nazis'' and chuck about personal abuse
d) Go on about 'free speech'. ( I've had a trolling commenter demanding that I give a platform for NK and holocaust deniers on my blog,. and because I allowed one comment through in which he denied the holocaust, then said ''no more'', I got called a Nazi dictator) 

Not very impressive but not very surprising.

LOL

Made of fail.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Have I missed any tactics/responses?

Or is that it?


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

If Kollerstrom loses his livelyhood then its his fault and his alone.
He works for an institution that houses the largest faculty for Hebrew and Jewish studies in Europe.
He wrote these lunatic theories that the holocaust was a myth, and published them in his own name.

Freedom of speech versus freedom to sack nazi apologist anti-semitic conspiracy loon.

These people are mentally ill and need help, its a disorder much in the same way as paranoid schizophrenia or an eating disorder.

To treat them as victims is to consider their theories as normal and inoffensive.. their ideas and their "Sacred Truth" rhetoric is the same type of crap that got Hitler elected.

Pretty much every one of these nutjobs ends up linked to facist propaganda.

This one is no exception.

Fuck him and fuck his livelyhood.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

I really would _hate_ for anyone to post reviews like this this on all of NK's books on amazon


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

8den said:


> Is this guy apologizing for the Nazis? No he's *flat out denying* that "any Jew was put in a gas chamber". He's doing this while flaunting his academic credentials and urging people to challenge the "myth" of the holocaust in other academic institutions. All we're doing is asking that he accepts a dose of his own medicine.



Has this made James Randi yet?


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2008)

Soory, BK, but threads get derailed all the time, and ino he has a valid point, if you denounce someone for extreme right wing views now, how long before it is the left wing,etc who also get denounced, dangerous path imo. In fact, as i am sure you know, in the U.S there are neo-con groups set up to do exactly that, spy on liberal academics on campuses and denounce them. 



'





> How about you start a different thread? This thread is about Nick Kollerstrom being a holocaust denier
> Reply With Quote


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> We really are up to our necks in a surveillance society, aren't we?
> 
> One day maybe we will have a free education system - particularly in higher education, where people are free to put forward ideas - however distasteful and untrue they are - without feeling they will face the loss of their livelihood.
> 
> But then if people can dismiss free speech as bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite their isn't much hope is there? I'd still like to know who and how restricted speech is to be policed? And what is going to happen to those academics who are apologists for Marxist atrocities? Creationists? Islamic fundamentalists?



   Freedom of speech doesnt mean you can spout off rubbish 
 Would you employ a physicist who kept waffling on about creation theory
 A Historian who only taught stalins version of history?
 An Islamic fundemntalist who just launched into rants about the great satan
 at any opptunity .
         Time and place for anything an acedemic who cant see the truth has no place  in acedemia .
          Lots of jews & others died and the nazis did it .Any other version is wrong .


----------



## jæd (Apr 21, 2008)

treelover said:


> Soory, BK, but threads get derailed all the time, and ino he has a valid point, if you denounce someone for extreme right wing views now, how long before it is the left wing,etc who also get denounced, dangerous path imo. In fact, as i am sure you know, in the U.S there are neo-con groups set up to do exactly that, spy on liberal academics on campuses and denounce them.



He's not being "denounced" for "extreme right wing views". He's trying to deny that any Jews got gassed by the Nazi's... Something that has been cross-referenced by umpteen different sources....


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2008)

oh and its revealing that on p/p which is meant to be about many aspects of the left and politics in general, most threads are lucky if they get 100 views, this has had 9000.,


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> lots of acedemics present their theories  as fact alderban, it's nothing new.


*Reputable* academics usually give chapter and verse on the sources of those theories, though, Mr. 66. Dr Kollerstrom hasn't deigned to do so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> yeah, citizen aint a nazi.



Didn't say he was.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh yeah, and here's a shock. NK's outing is part of a...wait for it..._conspiracy_ to undemine 7/7 'questioners' credibility/.



Wow, we didn't see *that* coming, did we?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

quarsan said:


> I've been called a "Mossad agent" and a Nazi, not just by the same person, but in the same sentence.
> 
> Guess that makes me part of the world's smallest minority.



That's pretty disgusting, someone accusing you of being Omri Sharon.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Well in the time I have spent attacking these kind of theories since 9/11, the "facts" these loons cite as proof are more often than not just invented by anti-semetic Nazi apologists.
Ive lost count of the times Jazzz has been informed his sources are essentially facist anti-Jewish crap, starting with Joe Vialls.

All these nutjob theories lead to the Jewish lizard beasts enslaving mankind.

Shame really.
At least Scientology is funny.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Well in the time I have spent attacking these kind of theories since 9/11, the "facts" these loons cite as proof are more often than not just invented by anti-semetic Nazi apologists.
> Ive lost count of the times Jazzz has been informed his sources are essentially facist anti-Jewish crap, starting with Joe Vialls.
> 
> All these nutjob theories lead to the Jewish lizard beasts enslaving mankind.
> ...



Not that funny ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/6650545.stm


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Well in the time I have spent attacking these kind of theories since 9/11, the "facts" these loons cite as proof are more often than not just invented by anti-semetic Nazi apologists.
> Ive lost count of the times Jazzz has been informed his sources are essentially facist anti-Jewish crap, starting with Joe Vialls.
> 
> All these nutjob theories lead to the Jewish lizard beasts enslaving mankind.
> ...


Some of it is just bad science. The tests on cyanide in walls is a classic example if you read up on it. Not done by Nazis, just not done in the right manner and giving results that can be abused.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

> astro3 said...
> 
> May I have a right of reply?
> Most of your viewers may share your own knee-jerk response of ‘Holocaust denier =Nazi= anti-Semitism,’ with the accompanying hate and rage; and this is the one any only topic in our culture where everyone knows they are supposed to believe it but no-one ever gets to hear what the evidence is supposed to be, and one gathers it would be very ethically damnable to inquire about it. For the one or two who wish to look into the subject and dare I say question it, *permit me to recommend perusing ‘Dissecting the Holocaust’ by twenty-odd different authors which is the modern work on the subject: www.vho.org/GB/Books/dth/*
> ...



That was Nick Kollerstrom on my site.

So let's look at the book which he says is ''the modern work on the subject''

The book is by Ernst Gauss, who is in fact Germar Rudolf.

And who is Germar Rudolf? A Holocaust denier.






> Dissecting the Holocaust was edited and coauthored by Rudolf under the nom de plume Ernst Gauss. The German language publication with the title Grundlagen zur Zeitgeschichte resulted in further indictments being filed against Rudolf. Among the contributors to the work are other Revisionist scholars such as Professor Robert Faurisson, Jürgen Graf, Carlo Mattogno, Udo Walendy and Friedrich Paul Berg. Included as an appendix is a defense of the work used at the trial by historian, Joachim Hoffmann.[5]



And what happened?


> Legal consequences: Escape, Deportation and Imprisonment
> 
> In 1994, Rudolf was sentenced to 14 months in prison by the district court of Tübingen because of the "Rudolf Report", as Holocaust denial is a crime in Germany. Rudolf avoided prison by fleeing to Spain, England and finally to Chicago, USA. There, he applied for political asylum, but his request was denied.Meanwhile, criminal investigation continued in Germany. In August 2004, the district court of Mannheim distrained a bank account holding about €200,000. Rudolf and his associates had earned this money by selling Holocaust denying publications.
> 
> On September 11, 2004, Rudolf married a US citizen, and took her name, Scheerer, until the two divorced. Nevertheless, his request for asylum was turned down in November of that year on the basis that his application was "frivolous". On October 19, 2005, Rudolf was arrested and deported to Germany on November 15.[3] There on arrival, he was arrested by police authorities and transferred to a prison in Stuttgart-Stammheim in Baden-Württemberg. On March 15, the Mannheim District Court sentenced Germar Rudolf to two years and six months in prison for inciting hatred, disparaging the dead, and libel. Rudolf as well as the prosecution accepted the verdict. Rudolf's "Lectures on the Holocaust" will be withdrawn.[4]




That's the person Kollerstrom cites as the author of ''the modern work on the subject''


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Some of it is just bad science. The tests on cyanide in walls is a classic example if you read up on it. Not done by Nazis, just not done in the right manner and giving results that can be abused.



Yeah, I'm still reading the information in the links that butchers posted. Interesting stuff.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

And guess what?

 In a neat little arc, the Holocaust denier, jailed for inciting racial hatred, who wrote the book Kollerstrom is such a fan of...

is a 9/11 ''Truther''

Investigation into new reports about 9/11


> In July 2003, according to his own published articles, Rudolf conducted limited experiments in the use of cellular phones from an airliner while in flight. He reports mixed results and has left the question open. His stated reason for conducting these experiments is to verify or deny a widely circulated claim that it is impossible to make cellular phone calls from an airliner at cruising height. This he co-authored with Alexander Dewdney.[6]


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh I find Scientology hilarious, especially the bit about obliterating all psychiatrists!

They want to destroy what they need the most!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

And here is a refutation of the Rudolf book and the loonspud claims he makes


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> We really are up to our necks in a surveillance society, aren't we?
> 
> One day maybe we will have a free education system - particularly in higher education, where people are free to put forward ideas - however distasteful and untrue they are - without feeling they will face the loss of their livelihood.


Nobody minds academics advancing "distasteful" ideas *if* they can support their ideas with evidence, that's how we go about clarifying history.
Dr. Kollerstrom hasn't done that, he's made claims that aren't substantiated by the historical record, and it appears that he's at least partially based those claims on Fred Leuchter's disproven thesis about _Zyklon B_ by-product residue. 


> But then if people can dismiss free speech as bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite their isn't much hope is there?


So, who exactly has dismissed free speech as "bullshit or liberal wishy-washy shite", then? Go on, be a _mensch_, name names.


> I'd still like to know who and how restricted speech is to be policed? And what is going to happen to those academics who are apologists for Marxist atrocities? Creationists? Islamic fundamentalists?


You don't get it, do you? The ECHR doesn't entitle people to a right of free speech unencumbered by any responsibility for what one speaks freely. Why not familiarise yourself with article 10, which covers the right to freedom of expression?
Perhaps then you'll actually have some idea of what you're talking about.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Thread moving fast, slow connection today at Mossad HQ!

Would it be easier to work out which members of the truther cult AREN'T holocaust deniers?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

treelover said:


> Soory, BK, but threads get derailed all the time, and ino he has a valid point, if you denounce someone for extreme right wing views now, how long before it is the left wing,etc who also get denounced, dangerous path imo. In fact, as i am sure you know, in the U.S there are neo-con groups set up to do exactly that, spy on liberal academics on campuses and denounce them.
> 
> 
> 
> '



He hasn't "been denounced" for hard-right views, he's been denounced for "holocaust denial". One doesn't *have* to be a "nazi" in order to deny the holocaust, just an ahistoric dolt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> That was Nick Kollerstrom on my site.
> 
> So let's look at the book which he says is ''the modern work on the subject''
> 
> ...



The German authorities were probably making a statement to other "holocaust deniers" by sending him to Stammheim. It has the toughest inmate regime in the country(still more liberal than most British nicks, though).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah, I'm still reading the information in the links that butchers posted. Interesting stuff.



Isn't it just?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> lots of acedemics present their theories  as fact alderban, it's nothing new.



1. No, they don't. 
2. Publishing with an air of authority in a field you didn't even study is that idiotic that it goes beyond imagination, let alone when using your academic title in an other field to underscore your rants in the not even remotely related.
It would be the same would I start publishing on astrophysics using my doctorates or whatever other unrelated degree I have, to give my writings "credibility". Maybe you would consider that a remarkable career/expertise switch, but I think not. 



Y_I_Otter said:


> Academics tend to limit their theories-as-fact pronouncements to subjects within their field of expertise. And then peer-review comes into play.



Exactly and in addition: Not pronounced as "fact" but as theory about possible fact hence always holding invitation to further research and discussion. 

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Isn't it just?




It was useful to do that on-line tour of Auschwitz-Birkenau first as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Oh I find Scientology hilarious, especially the bit about obliterating all psychiatrists!
> 
> They want to destroy what they need the most!



Yeah, but at least the Hubbardites have a (kind of) valid *reason* to want to destroy psychiatry (so that they can con everyone with their own pseudo-psychoanalytic _shtick_).


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2008)

Tbh, i am a bit baffled, what is his rationale for denying the holocaust happened or that millions didn't end up in the gas chambers, his denial above is pretty unequivocal, is he 'just' anti-semetic, plain bonkers, looking for noterieity or what?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

I have no idea what his motivation is, but he is absolutely certain that he has discovered the Truth.

Just like he thinks he is onto the Truth about 7/7 and 9/11.

I wonder whether he was always a holocaust-denier who is using 7/7 and 9/11 to make his views more relevant to people today, 

or whether he is a 9/11 Truther who fell deeper and deeper into the world of conspiracy theories - like someone getting into harder and harder pornography?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

treelover said:


> Tbh, i am a bit baffled, what is his rationale for denying the holocaust happened or that millions didn't end up in the gas chambers, his denial above is pretty unequivocal, is he 'just' anti-semetic, plain bonkers, looking for noterieity or what?



You have to view the situation through the mindset of a conspiracy theorist, which means (in many cases) not addressing the facts as established, but reviewing those facts as the product of a conspiracy. This doesn't just apply to "holocaust denial", but to any event, hence a rail transport infrastructure failure won't be the product of worn rails, bad signalling and/or poorly serviced rolling stock, but a conspiracy on the part of anti-privatisation _guerrillas_ seeking to force the govt's hand (a flippant example, I know ).
According to the CTer, almost everything has a hidden motivation lying behind the established facts of the matter.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Which sounds like paranoid delusional disorder to me.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Which sounds like paranoid delusional disorder to me.



Just because you're paranoid and delusional doesn't mean that crack Vatican stormtroopers aren't out to get you!


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> One day maybe we will have a free education system - particularly in higher education, where people are free to put forward ideas - however distasteful and *untrue* they are -



You want an education system where people are allowed to teach things that aren't true?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

8den said:


> You want an education system where people are allowed to teach things that aren't true?



I think you just found a new conspiracy! Invented by AQ to undermine the brain functions of the Westerners.

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Skepdic



> Paranoid conspiracy theories are very appealing to the uncritical or unstable mind. Those who are fantasy-prone, irrational thinkers, and those who may have psychological problems: paranoia, delusional disorder for example, can quickly get suckered into a strange world of fantasy and/or fear.
> 
> Delusional disorder (grandiose) shows up as: an exaggerated idea of identity; knowledge; power; self-worth and importance; a special relationship to God or someone famous; the belief in having a special mission. Many PCTs exhibit these characteristics.
> 
> ...


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

BK, that reads like a description of GW Bush & his Clan. 

salaam.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

There's another term for it - _scriptocoprophalalia_


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Is the deliberate starvation of certain groups by Stalin less despicable than Hitler’s holocaust of the Jews?

Both where seen as a means to an end. 

http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MjUwYmU0MDBhMGQxODAzZDkyNmExYWY0NmI1ZmIyNjU=

‘Recent emphasis on the singularity of the genocide of the Jews, by concentrating attention on an exceptional atrocity, blurs our perception of affairs of the same order in the Communist world.’

‘…In 1932-33 the famine deliberately engineered by Stalin in the Ukraine destroyed about six million men, women and children.’

‘… Communism transposed the language and conditions of wartime onto a civil and ideological ''front,'' bequeathing to modern radical politics a paramilitary language of interminable ''conflict.'' A permanent civil war of party-state versus society was inaugurated; its goal was a Gleichschaltung -- an atomized oneness -- *different from that of Nazism only in its invocation of ''class'' instead of ''race'' and in its distinctive euphemisms: Nazis applied ''special treatment'' to the useless people they murdered, Communists ''liquidated'' those whom history, in their eyes, had already condemned.*’

‘… Communism was applied in the ''East'' and justified in the ''West,'' whereas Nazism was a Western abomination whose evils were experienced closer to home (and one that left behind a fuller, more accessible visual record of its achievements). It is thus difficult for the left-liberal intelligentsia of the West, and not just in Paris, to let go of its memories and illusions, to reconcile itself to having been no wiser or better than Fascism's many foreign admirers in the 1930's.’

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...1A15751C1A961958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

What's that got to with anything? 

You might as well ask if  iwas watching the snooker last night.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Is the deliberate starvation of certain groups by Stalin less despicable than Hitler’s holocaust of the Jews?



Does the delusional we are talking about here writes denial stories on that too?

salaam.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs. 

If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> There's another term for it - _scriptocoprophalalia_



Love of talking shite?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.
> 
> If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?



Who gives a fuck?

On this thread anyway. Ask 'em if the question us burning a hole in your clever pocket.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Is the deliberate starvation of certain groups by Stalin less despicable than Hitler’s holocaust of the Jews?
> 
> Both where seen as a means to an end.
> 
> ...



You are aware that this point has been mentioned 2 or 3 times already, aren't you?

Or perhaps not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Love of talking shite?



Close, love of _repeating_ shit was other people have written. The term may not stand up to close scrutiny.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.
> 
> If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?



It was not so much the ideology as the personality of the leader at the time causing this derailment.
For the same money you could ask how Germans can still be Germans. 

salaam.


----------



## Frampton (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda,
The comments on free speech being bullshit and liberal are from earlier posts on this thread. I'm sure posters won't mind naming themselves.

The criteria of academics having to supply firm evidence puts me in a quandary. I regularly lecture on psychoanalysis and am often pushed to justify my ideas with "evidence". I can't always do this.

Under free speech I never said anything about responsibility. As an Anarchist I'm free to say what I want. But I must except that my words have repercussions and for that I accept responsibility. There's a difference between freedom and licence. With the latter one has no interest in the consequences. 

It's similar to me arguing (as I do) that paedophiles are not monsters but are everyday fathers, uncles and neighbours. I might not readily put that idea forward in the pub where I drink but in academia I enables me to explore and challenge paedophilia from different standpoints.

I'm for freedom of speech because it can be lost so easily. And, if I'm free to speak about such distatseful things like childhood sexuality, then I must accept that this character is free put forward outrageous challenges to accepted history.

I'd still like to know who is going to police the new restricted speech?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> What's that got to with anything?
> 
> You might as well ask if  iwas watching the snooker last night.



Was there snooker on last night?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.
> 
> If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?



As ButchersApron  said, what's that got to do with anything?
Or how Catholics can be Catholics after The Spanish Inquisition/Mary Tudor's burning Protestants/the Crusades etc etc etc.

It's beside the point and off topic. Kollerstrom unequivocally denies millions were killed by the Nazis in the holocaust. He recommends a book written by a Nazi Sympathiser who was jailed for race hate and says it is the 'modern work' on the subject of the Holocaust. He denies the testimony of survivors and eye witnesses. Much as he does with 7/7 and 9/11.

Interestingly, many other 9/11 and 7/7 are also fash/holocaust-deniers/anti-Semites or linked to extreme right wing sites.

 Hence this thread.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.
> 
> If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?



Many Nazis {rather than neo-Nazis) *did* accept the reality of the holocaust, as did many of the German people and the German power elite (they still have a legal division dedicated to processing and prosecuting holocaust-related crimes), and it's certain (even if only going by party membership records) that many Communists around the world accepted and abhorred the reality of Soviet and Red Chinese atrocities.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

BK said:
			
		

> ... whether he is a 9/11 Truther who fell deeper and deeper into the world of conspiracy theories - like someone getting into harder and harder pornography?



I'd be willing to lay good money a quick look in his hard drive would reveal a sizeable stash of Nazi themed smut a la Moseley...


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As ButchersApron  said, what's that got to do with anything?
> Or how Catholics can be Catholics after The Spanish Inquisition/Mary Tudor's burning Protestants/the Crusades etc etc etc.
> 
> It's beside the point and off topic. Kollerstrom unequivocally denies millions were killed by the Nazis in the holocaust. He recommends a book written by a Nazi Sympathiser who was jailed for race hate and says it is the 'modern work' on the subject of the Holocaust. He denies the testimony of survivors and eye witnesses. Much as he does with 7/7 and 9/11.
> ...



Enemies of the revolution, class enemies, it’s a fairly common justification throughout the history of communist regimes for all sorts of terrible crimes.

So in a good communist revolution and regime, how would these ‘enemies’ be dealt with?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Enemies of the revolution, class enemies, it’s a fairly common justification throughout the history of communist regimes for all sorts of terrible crimes.
> 
> So in a good communist revolution and regime, how would these ‘enemies’ be dealt with?



Go and ask some of them.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> ViolentPanda,
> The comments on free speech being bullshit and liberal are from earlier posts on this thread. I'm sure posters won't mind naming themselves.
> 
> The criteria of academics having to supply firm evidence puts me in a quandary. I regularly lecture on psychoanalysis and am often pushed to justify my ideas with "evidence". I can't always do this.
> ...



He has freely spoken about his views. He has freely posted his views under his name, Nick Kollerstrom, PhD where people can freely read them. He has freely reiterated his views on my website and he has freely expressed them elsewhere.

We are freely expressing our disgust on this board, and some people are freely expressing their thoughts to the Uni, who are free to read his free speech and decide if they think they want him on board or want to be free of him.

I don't actually see any police, or any restriction of views, do you? 

Where's the police? Where's the restrictions on free speech? Anyone been arrested?

 No.

 So what are you on about? Want some more straw?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> I'd be willing to lay good money a quick look in his hard drive would reveal a sizeable stash of Nazi themed smut a la Moseley...


I'd take that bet to be honest. Stupid and gullible quite probably but i doubt he's a jackbooted Aryan supremacist. It's a common trend for truthers to ignore things they don't like and latch onto the facets they do. *shrug*


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> The criteria of academics having to supply firm evidence puts me in a quandary. I regularly lecture on psychoanalysis and am often pushed to justify my ideas with "evidence". I can't always do this.



If you propose ideas not supported by earlier research/findings as of yet, and do so without mentioning this to your students, you are at fault for being so arrogant.  



> As an Anarchist I'm free to say what I want.



You are not free to lecture "what you want" unless the institution you teach at is not bound by governmental normative standards for its program. Which I suppose would be the case, is it not. 

So how does the obligation to follow the standard coincides with you being an "anarchist"?  



> It's similar to me arguing (as I do) that paedophiles are not monsters but are everyday fathers, uncles and neighbours. I might not readily put that idea forward in the pub where I drink but in academia I enables me to explore and challenge paedophilia from different standpoints.



No it is absolutely not similar, not even remotely.



> I'm for freedom of speech because it can be lost so easily. And, if I'm free to speak about such distatseful things like childhood sexuality, then I must accept that this character is free put forward outrageous challenges to accepted history.


 
The person under discussion published his nonsense in the hopes to get a lot of attention from non academics, using his unrelated academic title to make appear he is an authority in the matter.  
That has nothing to do with "freedom of speech" but all with deliberate, calculated undermining of recorded historical facts. 



> I'd still like to know who is going to police the new restricted speech?



You should first try to find out what is "freedom of speech" and what is deliberate, calculated spreading of a lie.

salaam.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Frampton said:


> ViolentPanda,
> The comments on free speech being bullshit and liberal are from earlier posts on this thread. I'm sure posters won't mind naming themselves.


There's an Urban75 convention: You make the claim, you substantiate it. 


> The criteria of academics having to supply firm evidence puts me in a quandary. I regularly lecture on psychoanalysis and am often pushed to justify my ideas with "evidence". I can't always do this.


We're not talking about psychoanalysis (or indeed any other discipline that requires one to conceptualise beyond the established truths, but about history, a discipline predicated primarily on the discovery and assessment of the historical record.


> Under free speech I never said anything about responsibility. As an Anarchist I'm free to say what I want. But I must except that my words have repercussions and for that I accept responsibility. There's a difference between freedom and licence. With the latter one has no interest in the consequences.


Which was my point. 


> It's similar to me arguing (as I do) that paedophiles are not monsters but are everyday fathers, uncles and neighbours. I might not readily put that idea forward in the pub where I drink but in academia I enables me to explore and challenge paedophilia from different standpoints.
> 
> I'm for freedom of speech because it can be lost so easily. And, if I'm free to speak about such distatseful things like childhood sexuality, then I must accept that this character is free put forward outrageous challenges to accepted history.


You would be advancing a position (re: childhood sexuality) based on a (hopefully) balanced assessment of "the facts", what Dr Kollerstrom is doing is advancing a position through denial of "the facts".


> I'd still like to know who is going to police the new restricted speech?


If you're an anarchist then you should know the answer already.


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Has this made James Randi yet?



Nope. Might be worth giving the screwloosechange guys a heads up as well.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> I'd take that bet to be honest. Stupid and gullible quite probably but i doubt he's a jackbooted Aryan supremacist. It's a common trend for truthers to ignore things they don't like and latch onto the facets they do. *shrug*



Aye. It's a common trend for people to accuse others of what they do themselves, but without realising it.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Here comes a fela derail - any passing mods?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> You are aware that this point has been mentioned 2 or 3 times already, aren't you?
> 
> Or perhaps not.




When the Ukrainian famine is raised by Nazi apologists in debating circles it's usually pooh-poohed as the moral equivalency fallacy it so clearly is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Aye. It's a common trend for people to accuse others of what they do themselves, but without realising it.



Quoted for posterity.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Here comes a fela derail - any passing mods?



Need the police do you?

Need order and rules and laws do you?

Need security do you?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Here comes a fela derail - any passing mods?



Hopefully he'll catch up with that 'Nothing' thread before making himself look an idiot on this one.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quoted for posterity.


Oh come on, he's describing me not himself!

*shakes head at VP's obtuseness*

(Obtusiveness? Obtusivity? I hate english)


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I have no idea what his motivation is, but he is absolutely certain that he has discovered the Truth.
> 
> Just like he thinks he is onto the Truth about 7/7 and 9/11.
> 
> ...



yea, but you can't really get much more 'extreme' than _holocaust denial_ 

what i would find interesting is where as holocaust denial is a misnomer as all holocaust 'deniers' know full well it happened (they simply think it was a _good thing_ and attempt to 'rehabilitate fascism' through holocaust denial as they would like to see it happen again) has anyone done any research into how many 'truthers' are cynically involved with the 'truth campaign' as it provides an arena for those receptive to their more extreme agendas?

as in - certain 9/11 - 7/7 'truthers' know full well the 'culprits' they point their fingers at is a load of bullshit but perpetuating the whole 'truth campaign' opens doors for them to propogate other concepts, previously regarded as verboten and too taboo for question and debate?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Quoted for posterity.



So easily satisfied.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Oh come on, he's describing me not himself!
> 
> *shakes head at VP's obtuseness*
> 
> (Obtusiveness? Obtusivity? I hate english)



No bob, i'm describing you. But you of course don't seem to see it. Oh well.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Hopefully he'll catch up with that 'Nothing' thread before making himself look an idiot on this one.



Are you a cocktail waiter?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Are you a cocktail waiter?



'useful idiot'


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yea, but you can't really get much more 'extreme' than _holocaust denial_
> 
> what i would find interesting is where as holocaust denial is a misnomer as all holocaust 'deniers' know full well it happened (they simply think it was a _good thing_ and attempt to 'rehabilitate fascism' through holocaust denial as they would like to see it happen again) has anyone done any research into how many 'truthers' are cynically involved with the 'truth campaign' as it provides an arena for those receptive to their more extreme agendas?
> 
> as in - certain 9/11 - 7/7 'truthers' know full well the 'culprits' they point their fingers at is a load of bullshit but perpetuating the whole 'truth campaign' opens doors for them to propogate other concepts, previously regarded as verboten and too taboo for question and debate?



This is exactly where people like this bloke, who is genuinely mad enough to think denying the holocaust has no anti-semitic or racist implications come in. They're useful (or more accurately, some people who really are anti-semitic etc, think they'll be useful) in normalising the denial discourse. Of course, the fact they're already marginalised to seeking influence with 911 freaks says all we need to know.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Oh come on, he's describing me not himself!





fela fan said:


> No bob, i'm describing you. But you of course don't seem to see it. Oh well.



Mad as a hatter you are.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Mad as a hatter you are.



You and me then...


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> When the Ukrainian famine is raised by Nazi apologists in debating circles it's usually pooh-poohed as the moral equivalency fallacy it so clearly is.



Source?

How is it a 'moral equivalency fallacy'?

Care to answer my question in 848?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> When the Ukrainian famine is raised by Nazi apologists in debating circles it's usually pooh-poohed as the moral equivalency fallacy it so clearly is.



Yup.
I've had that one directed at me a few times, and have had to refer the "debater" to the historical record of the swathe the Nazis themselves cut through the Ukrainian population (followed, of course, by paranoid Uncle Kolya's goon squads). There is no moral equivalency, just the sad fact that authoritarian dictatorships spend lives freely.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yup.
> I've had that one directed at me a few times, and have had to refer the "debater" to the historical record of the swathe the Nazis themselves cut through the Ukrainian population (followed, of course, by paranoid Uncle Kolya's goon squads). There is no moral equivalency, just the sad fact that authoritarian dictatorships spend lives freely.



And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> This is exactly where people like this bloke, who is genuinely mad enough to think denying the holocaust has no anti-semitic or racist implications come in. They're useful (or more accurately, some people who really are anti-semitic etc, think they'll be useful) in normalising the denial discourse. Of course, the fact they're already marginalised to seeking influence with 911 freaks says all we need to know.



Kollerstrom will weasel his way out of anti-semitism charges by pointing out that he is pro-the Semetic peoples ( such as Palestinians). However, having just read an essay of his, he is 100% anti Jewish - anti-Israel - anti-Israeli- and believes that Zionists are running the world.

Now, like many people, I am frequently appalled and horrified by some of the actions of the Israeli Government. I don't need to list them. It is infuriating to see charges of anti-semitism thrown about when criticising the brutal repression of Palestinians and the lack of engagement with the peace process, as the violence & mistrust on both sides continues to spiral 

But Nick Kollerstrom isn't criticising Israeli policy. No, he is into into a* specific conspiracy theory which is specifically about JEWS*. American Jews, rich Jews, Israeli Jews, European Jews, Jews who work in politics, media, banking, writing, publishing....

_Jews_. *It's all about Jews.*
They are, he says, 'the enemy within'.

 Check for yourself.

*ww.911action.org/911-and-zion/


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?




Go and ask one


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Here comes a fela derail - any passing mods?



And in any case, after 35 pages of witchhunt, mine is a derail?

Call in the ruling class man. That'll sort out those with the wrong ideas and opinions.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?



Eddy - ask some people who deny that Stalin did naughty things. And don't ask people who don't deny it why they want to it to happen again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Oh come on, he's describing me not himself!


I know.


> *shakes head at VP's obtuseness*
> 
> (Obtusiveness? Obtusivity? I hate english)



Obtuseness is good.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

> _Jews_. *It's all about Jews.*
> They are, he says, 'the enemy within'.
> 
> Check for yourself.
> ...



Has this been forwarded to UCL's Hebrew & Jewish department yet?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> So easily satisfied.



Who said I was "satisfied", you _schmendrick_?

Why, the omniscient _fela fan_, that's who!


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Eddy - ask some people who deny that Stalin did naughty things. And don't ask people who don't deny it why they want to it to happen again.



Ok, but I do not accept that there is no moral equivalency. And I think that the question is an interesting one whether one denies Stalin's, and other regimes actions or not. If you still seek a communist revolution, what to do with these enemies?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Mad as a hatter you are.




Bit of an insult, that.

















To Hatters, like.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Can anyone give any examples of PC, anti-racist holocaust denial btw? Is NK the first?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> And in any case, after 35 pages of witchhunt, mine is a derail?
> 
> Call in the ruling class man. That'll sort out those with the wrong ideas and opinions.



Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated i_sn't _a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a _right _opinion?

Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews  - what, and we can't mention it?  Or discuss it?

Witch hunt?
 Piss off.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2008)

Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science.  We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly  the 'using his PhD' thing.  He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.

Now.... there's a difference.  CTers would use the above to leap further and say Kollerstrom's views are thus as valid as any others in a relativist universe.  I don't - I'm clear, his views are plain wrong and his views are obnoxiouos.  I just think they should be attacked - loudly and publicly - for what they are: holocaust denial and 9/11 nonsense.  Attack the ideas and attack the man (deserved a good slap for harrassing survivors).  Okay, use his links with UCL as part of that if you want - but its only a _strategic _thing.  The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> And how would a good communist revolution deal with the class enemies and enemies of the revolution?



How is that germane to the thread, eddy?

(I mean, we know it isn't, and that it's just _flak_, but hey, I believe in giving people the freedom to justify themselves if they wish to.)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Ok, but I do not accept that there is no moral equivalency. And I think that the question is an interesting one whether one denies Stalin's, and other regimes actions or not. If you still seek a communist revolution, what to do with these enemies?



"Moral equivalency" implies the presence of morality.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated i_sn't _a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a _right _opinion?
> 
> Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
> We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews  - what, and we can't mention it?  Or discuss it?
> ...



Quite.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science.  We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly  the 'using his PhD' thing.  He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.
> 
> Now.... there's a difference.  CTers would use the above to leap further and say Kollerstrom's views are thus as valid as any others in a relativist universe.  I don't - I'm clear, his views are plain wrong and his views are obnoxiouos.  I just think they should be attacked - loudly and publicly - for what they are: holocaust denial and 9/11 nonsense.  Attack the ideas and attack the man (deserved a good slap for harrassing survivors).  Okay, use his links with UCL as part of that if you want - but its only a _strategic _thing.  The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.



Kollerstrom is not an abberation amongst 9/11 and 7/7 ''truthers''.

He is indicative of a trend. How many other 'Truthers' believe similarly, how deep this goes, how extreme this is, nobody knows. The reaction of 'Truther' sites has been to hide all threads where the holocaust was openly denied and discussed. AS well as throwing abuse and ad-hominem attacks calling people Nazis.


Because Kollerstrom is publishing shite under his real name and using his PhD to give credibility to his drivel, _and_ because he has behaved like an arse in real life, he is a good figure to examine and discuss.

 But I am not going to hide the fact that I think, and Blairwatch thinks, that there is a strong undercurrent of this in the ''Truther'' cult/group/mindset. 


And I think this storm is flushing it out.

I am extremely interested in the Truther reactions. I expected people to be disgusted with what Kollerstrom says, because it is odious. But it is the Truther reactions that are the most telling.

By the way, Aronowitz, the man who owns the 9/11 site has issued a notice to the group that he is taking it down. 



Kollerstrom, writing as astro3 says



> Mr Aronowitz kept repeating at the meeting that he had made the decision, to ‘pull the plug’ and that it would be for our own good. This site will just be frozen and go into a limbo somewhere. He owns the domain for www.nineeleven.co.uk and it would be an easy matter for him to hand it over to someone else in the group. But, that did not seem to be quite what he had in mind. His function seemed to be more of a Sword of Damocles. My impression, which may be mistaken, is that he has in mind two things: termination of this site by 15th June, and non-surrender of that URL so no-one else will be able to continue it.
> 
> In my opinion, he explained to us the reason for this forthcoming action, which pertained to Zion. He had been disturbed by continuing ‘anti-semitic’ references on the site he explained, and also ‘hate’ postings. Jews do use claims of ‘hate’ when eg disapproval of Israel bombardment of Lebanon is expressed. I surmise that my own articles may here be alluded to, eg ‘Zakheim and his missing trillions’, or Lucky Larry Silverstein getting his four billion to rebuild the WTC from Euro-insurance companies, etc.
> 
> A recent circular by Ian Henshall warned our group against succumbing to ‘anti-semitism’ so perhaps Simon was just agreeing with this? The US State Department defines ‘anti-semitism’ in terms of criticism of Israel*, and perhaps this was what Mr Aronowitz had in mind? Personally I'm very pro-Semitic: Semitic races are Arab, and not more than 15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction. Do I digress?



source *ww.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=112076&highlight=#112076


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science.  We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly  the 'using his PhD' thing.  He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.


In my opinion part of the problem resides in the fact that academic credentials, whether relevant to the subject or not, will be possibly perceived by some as lending credibility to the premises being put forward. 
We only have to look to the sources cited in Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve" to see a fine example of people using their academic credentials in other fields to give credence to pseudo-academic theories which then get published in pseudo-academic journals. Unfortunately, some people do still buy into this sort of subterfuge.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

The problem is a societal deference to academics. Fuck 'em.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

There is one thing to bear in mind here, all these people add up to nothing - they're isolated nutters who have been forced to huddle together by the common reactions to their idocies. They have no purhase anywhere.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> In my opinion part of the problem resides in the fact that academic credentials, whether relevant to the subject or not, will be possibly perceived by some as lending credibility to the premises being put forward.



Very good point.  Its a bit like having a royal warrant for a business.  There will always be enough people who are impressed by the fancy badge to take the establishment more seriously than it should.  There is sadly an audience for stuff like that that spews from Kollerstrom and similar but sticking an acedemic badge on these witterings do give the impression to the impressionable that these are sensible theories rather than the usual bollocks.

Its not against freedom of speech to speak out when someone is mis-selling a product.  Kollerstroms stuff seems to be the usual shit with a shiny academic coating to it.

He can fuck right off.  



ViolentPanda said:


> We only have to look to the sources cited in Murray & Herrnstein's "The Bell Curve" to see a fine example of people using their academic credentials in other fields to give credence to pseudo-academic theories which then get published in pseudo-academic journals. Unfortunately, some people do still buy into this sort of subterfuge.



Again I agree.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The problem is a societal defence to academics. Fuck 'em.



Soz, I'm assuming you were typing quickly and meant "deference". If so, I agree.We keep hearing from sociology that "the age of the expert" is done, but on a very basic level it's as strong as it ever was. You say "Dr" and people (even if only metaphorically) still tug the forelock.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Because Kollerstrom is publishing shite under his real name and using his PhD to give credibility to his drivel, _and_ because he has behaved like an arse in real life, he is a good figure to examine and discuss.



I agree, certainly.  In fact my reservations on this are so small, they are hardly worth mentioning o).  

All the "Nick Kollerstrom, PhD" is actually an indication of how stupid he is.  Doesn't seem to realise that spouting such stuff will cause problems back at work.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Soz, I'm assuming you were typing quickly and meant "deference". If so, I agree.We keep hearing from sociology that "the age of the expert" is done, but on a very basic level it's as strong as it ever was. You say "Dr" and people (even if only metaphorically) still tug the forelock.



I was yep.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Are you suggesting deliberately lying about the fact that millions of people were industrially exterminated i_sn't _a wrong idea or opinion? Are you suggesting it is a _right _opinion?
> 
> Nick Kollerstrom, by the way, published his articles freely and continues to do so.
> We are freely discussing what he has freely disseminated. He chose to put it out there, along with his views on Jews  - what, and we can't mention it?  Or discuss it?
> ...



No, i'm not suggesting that.

I'm supporting the right to have 'wrong' opinions without being witchhunted.

And so he should continue to publish his articles, and to be able to. The best way to see something is not good, is wrong, is not for the general public interest, is to see it in print, give them a chance to digest what is being said. There is no finer way to rubbish something that is clearly unacceptable for the majority.

To close down this minority view is to block the chance for the majority to reject it.

That is precisely why we should have total freedom of speech.

And i mean the word 'total'.

Give the hearers and readers the chance to decide for themselves what is drivel or what is dangerous drivel.

This thread has done its best to shut down this alternative viewpoint. It has gone emotionally overboard.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The problem is a societal deference to academics. Fuck 'em.



Oi! Fuck deference not academics.

Louis Macneice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Oi! Fuck deference not academics.
> 
> Louis Macneice



I'd go along with that Dr Louis.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No, i'm not suggesting that.
> 
> I'm supporting the right to have 'wrong' opinions without being witchhunted.



What do you mean by witchhunted?

Of course he has the right to hold wrong opinions. I'm glad that you're finally managed to make this very basic point that, i think everyone else, actually started from. Well done on catching up. We're discussing what holding those opinions means for the rest of society and things like the social responsibility of public organisations.

Give us a shout when you're up to speed again.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> This thread has done its best to shut down this alternative viewpoint. It has gone emotionally overboard.



This thread far from shutting down an 'alternative viewpoint' (which is one way of describing holocaust denial) has rather effectively opened up said alternative viewpoint to scrutiny. Given your support for free speech I know that you will defend people's right to go as 'emotionally overboard' as they see fit when presented with such stupid, insulting lies.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

We've been reproducing these 'alternative viewpoints' all over the thread, fela. Links, copy & pastes, the works. Now we're discussing them. Get a grip.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Another blogger on the subject.

Hysterically, Kollerstrom is now threatening legal action against me and Blairwatch, ostensibly becase of this comment I made on my website



> 'd say Kollerstrom is
> 
> 'not just irritating, but horrid, hateful, a defender of genocide, a holocaust-denier and a whining front for those who kill. Nazis defended genocide didn't they? Who stands with the defenders of genocide then, hmmm? Who thinks genocide is OK, hmmm? Who only goes on about themselves when millions suffer because of us, hmmmm???? Scum. Pondlife. That's who.'
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

The legal action thing is just a transparent shot across the bows. However, traditonally these were used by people with the firepower to back it up. He hasn't. He knows it, you know it. I'd just ignore that bit lest it become the bone of contention.


----------



## Red O (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *ww.911action.org/911-and-zion/



Jazzz, do you still maintain your "strong belief that he is no anti-semite"?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No, i'm not suggesting that.
> 
> I'm supporting the right to have 'wrong' opinions without being witchhunted.
> 
> ...




Oh pur-lease.
I have found out his address. Have I published it? Nope.
Did the 9/11 conspiracy theory board try to publish my home address, and state that my husband was a Zionist Israeli, along with a threat to 'pop round'? Yep.
Did Nick Kollerstrom call my book a 'work of fiction'. Yep.
Did the 9/11 board edit this only when I pointed out it was libellous. Yes. 
( Because it was, and my publisher went mad)
Have the conspiraloons on the 7/7 board made any attempt to remove the stuff they said about me, which I then quoted and said I thought they were better applied to Kollerstrom? Nope.

Did they go emotionally overboard about me last week in a vicious personal attack? Yep. Have I tried to get them jailed or shut down or spoken to a lawyer? Nope. 

Do I think Kollerstrom is a liar and a disseminator of lies and a Holocaust denier? Yes. Because he is.

 Has Kollerstrom himself gone on about writing to academic institutions when you do not agree with views espoused there ( in his case, writing to a school about teaching children about the Holocaust)? Yep.

Kollerstrom is indicative of what is going on with these self-styled Truthers.
He is stupid enough to write under his own name and cite his PhD.

Others are less stupid. But no less bullying, no less foul in their views.

Can we have a discussion about this? Absolutely.
Is it a witch hunt? No, it is people freely expressing an opinion about a man who has freely expressed a lie.

And as I said, the reaction of his fellow travellers has been
a) Personal abuse and threats
b) Removal/hiding of threads in which antisemitism and holocaust denial are expressed 
c)Threats of legal action
d) Complaints of being smears

As to people's emotional reaction to lies about millions being exterminated, would you like them to censor it? Ignore the lies? Not discuss it at all?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The legal action thing is just a transparent shot across the bows. However, traditonally these were used by people with the firepower to back it up. He hasn't. He knows it, you know it. I'd just ignore that bit lest it become the bone of contention.




Oh, he can try. It won't get anywhere. For obvious reasons. It's laughable.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh, he can try. It won't get anywhere. For obvious reasons. It's laughable.



Of coure not.  But it's there to bow _others._


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As to people's emotional reaction to lies about millions being exterminated, would you like them to censor it? Ignore the lies? Not discuss it at all?



If people think such rubbish, let them think it.

This thread has been about rubbishing the person with the untasteful views, rather than rubbishing the views.

The best way to rubbish views is to hear them in the first place.

That is the whole point of freedom of speech.

This thread seems to hold the view that the best way to censor 'wrong' views is to ban them in the first place.

Not so.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> If people think such rubbish, let them think it.
> 
> This thread has been about rubbishing the person with the untasteful views, rather than rubbishing the views.
> 
> ...



Every point is wrong.



> The best way to rubbish views is to hear them in the first place.



And then don't criticise them? What, they'll automatically criticise themselves?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh pur-lease.
> I have found out his address. Have I published it? Nope.
> Did the 9/11 conspiracy theory board try to publish my home address, and state that my husband was a Zionist Israeli, along with a threat to 'pop round'? Yep.
> Did Nick Kollerstrom call my book a 'work of fiction'. Yep.
> ...



This whole thread seems to be about you and your reactions to this man and his opinions, and the fact that you don't like them.

And if you're going to complain he's a phd man and his thoughts should therefore be 'better' than they are, then you've got the wrong end of the stick about academics.

Academics have their thoughts, and that is the whole point of being an academic. If they're wrong, then this can be exposed precisely because they were able to have the freedom, within their community, to express them in the first place.

Do not expect that academics should have 'correct' thoughts just because they're academics.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

It's like talking to a brick wall innit.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh FFS.

What do you suggest happens when someone starts to say that ''I deny that anyone ever put Jews into gas chambers. That didn’t happen, its not part of the historical record. - Nick Kollerstrom, PhD'' 

Nick said it.
We're discussing it.

Get over it: I realise that it is mortifying for the 9/11 Truthers to realise that they are fellow travellers with people who express such views, but the fact is, they ARE.

And this thread has demostrated it, in spades.
Deal with it and wake up.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> And then don't criticise them? What, they'll automatically criticise themselves?



Yeah, sure, criticise the points, the opinions.

But this thread has not been about that, it's been about criticising the person behind the thoughts, just because he had them in the first place.

I would have thought you'd've seen this.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Academics have their thoughts, and that is the whole point of being an academic. If they're wrong, then this can be exposed precisely because they were able to have the freedom, within their community, to express them in the first place.



Go to bed.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

What's wrong with criticising the person fela?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Yeah, sure, criticise the points, the opinions.
> 
> But this thread has not been about that, it's been about criticising the person behind the thoughts, just because he had them in the first place.
> 
> I would have thought you'd've seen this.



What, his shoe size? His nose? His hair?

Do, like, fuck off. It's been criticising him and his ideas.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

sorry but imo, if someone denies the holocaust then they're fair game. period. i hate those kind of people and i do not have any sympathy for them at all. 

perhaps a bit harsh of me but im sorry ... given that two members of my family have been jailed for opposing fascism i don't see nazis whining about how sad it is that they cant speak the truth about how the world is being controlled by zion, and then having to live with the consequences of their words, as in any way equal to the actions of the fascists in any way. 

the fash use "free speech" to silence anyone challenging them and their disgusting ideology. after all whose against free speech right? 

ill tell you who'se against it. THEY are.

what about OUR free speech and the right to criticise them?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> This whole thread seems to be about you and your reactions to this man and his opinions, and the fact that you don't like them.
> 
> And if you're going to complain he's a phd man and his thoughts should therefore be 'better' than they are, then you've got the wrong end of the stick about academics.
> 
> ...



This whole thread is about the fact that *Nick Kollerstrom is a holocaust denier*. I make no secret of the fact that I think conspiracy theorists have dodgy views and behave in a dodgy way and I hold up the holocaust-denying Kollerstrom as proof of this. I give the background because it is absolutely fair that it is in play. If I didn't people would accuse me of having an agenda. I do have an agenda. It is to point out that Kollerstrom is a holocaust-denier. Which he is. And to point out that  this is the sort of person that the ''7/7 and 9/11 Truthers'' campaign alongside, invite to meetings, respond to on boards and generally welcome. When the fact that he is a holocaust-denying  loon is pointed out, I observe their reaction with great interest and little surprise.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Fela, do you dispute the fact that 6 million or so Jewish, disabled and others were exterminated in death camps?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Oh FFS.
> 
> What do you suggest happens when someone starts to say that ''I deny that anyone ever put Jews into gas chambers. That didn’t happen, its not part of the historical record. - Nick Kollerstrom, PhD''
> 
> ...



I actually suggest you wake up really. All this emotive ffs stuff is getting tiring.

Can you not hear so well? No, you can't, because you're just so emotionally involved in it all. 

So the man said there was no holocaust...

Well, so bloody what.

He's clearly deluded. Why are you so fucked about it?

I think it's good that we can hear such views. They help cement more coherent views on the topic.

But you seem to want to censor thinking just because it doesn't coincide with your own views.

And considering that you have a media job, i find that frightening to some degree.

Too fucking subjective you are.

Attack the views, not the person eh?

Well, maybe not. Easier to get emotive eh?


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 21, 2008)

sorry fela fan, you really are talking a load of _*fan*-ny batter_


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> But this thread has not been about that, it's been about criticising the person behind the thoughts, just because he had them in the first place.
> .



What does this even mean? Back it up with some posts. I don't even understand what this means?

What is 'the person' who's seemingly sacroscant - and what are the views that he holds?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Attack the views, not the person eh?
> 
> Well, maybe not. Easier to get emotive eh?



What does this mean?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Fela, do you dispute the fact that 6 million or so Jewish, disabled and others were exterminated in death camps?



No pk, i totally accept the disgraceful stain on humanity that hitler caused.

One of the worst excesses of human behaviour known to mankind. He is one of the major despots the world has known.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> So the man said there was no holocaust...
> 
> Well, so bloody what.



Oh dear.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> How is that germane to the thread, eddy?
> 
> (I mean, we know it isn't, and that it's just _flak_, but hey, I believe in giving people the freedom to justify themselves if they wish to.)



On the one hand you have the Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers, and their affiliates in conspiracy theorist circles. On the other you have communists who refuse to answer the question of what they would do with their enemies in a revolution. I thought that they would have had a ready answer.

So what is the alternative to repression, genocide etc. for those troublesome enemies of the revolution and class enemies. Assuming they don't think that Stalin had the right idea, I'd be interested to know. Or are they simply in denial about what their ideology invariably leads to.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Fela, do you dispute the fact that 6 million or so Jewish, disabled and others were exterminated in death camps?



not six million. 

more than that. at least 12 and probably more like about 20 million.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> On the one hand you have the Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers, and their affiliates in conspiracy theorist circles. On the other you have communists who refuse to answer the question of what they would do with their enemies in a revolution. I thought that they would have had a ready answer.
> 
> So what is the alternative to repression, genocide etc. for those troublesome enemies of the revolution and class enemies. Assuming they don't think that Stalin had the right idea, I'd be interested to know. Or are they simply in denial about their ideology invariably leads to.




Do you know the sound of one man yawning?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> What's wrong with criticising the person fela?




good question cesare.

In the political climate that we live in, no worries at all.

But in the world i prefer, personally, quite a lot actually. I'd rather criticise the opinions than the person that holds them.


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Attack the views, not the person eh?



to be honest mate, i'd have no problem about attacking both.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> to be honest mate, i'd have no problem about attacking both.



Yeah, well i know where you're coming from mate, but it's not the best idea.

Best to attack the ideas than the person.

People come and go in history. It's ideas that stick or don't stick.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> good question cesare.
> 
> In the political climate that we live in, no worries at all.
> 
> But in the world i prefer, personally, quite a lot actually. I'd rather criticise the opinions than the person that holds them.



An tell me, what is the difference as you're claiming it's been happening here on this thread.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Fela, its emotive and distressing to you, another one of your truther twats is exposed as a Jew hating facist supporting cunt.

Its hilarious to me.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

when it comes to holocaust denial these people are fair game. sorry. they are scum. 

two members of my family were jailed and one of them was killed for opposing fascism. 

they are fair fucking game. i dont give a fuck about his human rights or his free speech or anything else. he chose of his own accord to believe in that total shite. 

he didnt lose anyone of his family in the war. he didn't have first hand experience of world war two, so there is no fucking excuse. Only people who lost someone have the right to feel that way. other people do not.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

> I actually suggest you wake up really. All this emotive ffs stuff is getting tiring.
> 
> Can you not hear so well? No, you can't, because you're just so emotionally involved in it all.



Are you pretending now that you are not emotionally involved in it all? After your posting on this thread? 

Should people who have had direct personal experience of being attacked by holocaust deniers not mention it on this thread? Why not?



> So the man said there was no holocaust...
> 
> Well, so bloody what.



Says it all.


> He's clearly deluded. Why are you so fucked about it?



I'm not 'fucked' about it. I am pleased to finally be able to present incontrovertible proof of what I have long suspected about the deluded-ness, the unpleasantness of conspiraloons.



> I think it's good that we can hear such views. They help cement more coherent views on the topic.



And do we need to see child porn or rape porn in order to cement our coherent views on that as well?



> But you seem to want to censor thinking just because it doesn't coincide with your own views.



Oh do get real. *The only people deleting or hiding Holocaust-denial threads are the people on the 9/11 Truth board!*



> And considering that you have a media job, i find that frightening to some degree.



You find it 'frightening' that I am freely writing on a bulletin board? What, like Nick Kollerstrom does? 



> Too fucking subjective you are.



What's subjective about the fact that 6m people really were exterminated?


> Attack the views, not the person eh?



What the fuck do you think has been happening for 30+ pages? Are you even reading the thread?

Well, maybe not. Easier to get emotive eh?


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Do you know the sound of one man yawning?



So is it a secret? Or are they simply in denial?


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

How many Jews were murdered, Fela?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Fela, its emotive and distressing to you, another one of your truther twats is exposed as a Jew hating facist supporting cunt.
> 
> Its hilarious to me.



However funny it is to you pk, it is not emotive or distressing to me. Nor do i have any sympathy with 'truther twats' either.

In fact i don't actually give a toss about such dreadful opinions. People have them, and however much hot air is blown about on these forums, such ideas ain't gonna go away.

My point is much more about objectivity than subjective shit. The ideas about the holocaust not having happened are patently absurd. So i just wonder why folk get so upset about patently ridiculous ideas?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Yeah, well i know where you're coming from mate, but it's not the best idea.
> 
> Best to attack the ideas than the person.
> 
> People come and go in history. It's ideas that stick or don't stick.



Yes. I believe it was the IDEA that Hitler was using as his justification for genocide - that the Jews were involved in a plot to take over the world - that was attacked in WW". When millions of people died.

Now this dangerous and disgusting idea is being peddled again. It is trying to climb into the clothes of free speech to get credibility. It is aligning itself with 7/7 and 9/11 to attain contemporary relevance. It is trying to be attractive to people. People like you.

Kollerstrom actively pushes this idea.

The same idea that when last pushed and touted about led to millions of deaths.

I think the idea needs to be attacked, for all it is worth, and the people pushing it outed. 

People who want to dismiss it and those who push it as just a wacky idea held by wacky harmless loons are fools.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> What the fuck do you think has been happening for 30+ pages? Are you even reading the thread?
> 
> Well, maybe not. Easier to get emotive eh?



Maybe i'll bow out. Too emotional round these parts.

You just carry on.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> So is it a secret? Or are they simply in denial?



Not sure why you keep hassling butch on this subject as he has about as much sympathy for the Soviet system as he does the capitalist 

Start a separate thread about the soviet union and I'll contribute my thoughts when I get a moment.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> How many Jews were murdered, Fela?



Absolutely millions mate.

And why the question?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

I asked you some questions above fela - fancy answering them?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> My point is much more about objectivity than subjective shit. The ideas about the holocaust not having happened are patently absurd. So i just wonder why folk get so upset about patently ridiculous ideas?



In some countries, they even put people in jail for peddling such 'absurd' ideas.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> However funny it is to you pk, it is not emotive or distressing to me. Nor do i have any sympathy with 'truther twats' either.
> 
> In fact i don't actually give a toss about such dreadful opinions. People have them, and however much hot air is blown about on these forums, such ideas ain't gonna go away.
> 
> My point is much more about objectivity than subjective shit. The ideas about the holocaust not having happened are patently absurd. So i just wonder why folk get so upset about patently ridiculous ideas?



When Kollerstrom  lies about the experiences and the deaths of thousands on 9/11 and dozens on 7/7, I suppose it is a short hop from there to lying about 6m dead in the Holocaust. Personally, I think he came at it the other way.

I think he always went for the Nazi far right stuff and the 9/11 and 7/7 stuff is just a handy way for him to dress up his 'Jews are the problem' drivel and try to attract people like you to his cause. But I can't prove it and I can only guess what the motives of holocaust deniers who leap on the 9/11 bandwagon are.

If you can't see why your fellow humans have an emotional reaction to monstrous lies being told about mass murder, the repeating of a monstrous lie that in fact LED to mass murder, then you might need to have a think.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> However funny it is to you pk, it is not emotive or distressing to me. Nor do i have any sympathy with 'truther twats' either.
> 
> In fact i don't actually give a toss about such dreadful opinions. People have them, and however much hot air is blown about on these forums, such ideas ain't gonna go away.
> 
> My point is much more about objectivity than subjective shit. The ideas about the holocaust not having happened are patently absurd. So i just wonder why folk get so upset about patently ridiculous ideas?



You don't think ridiculous ideas (another euphemism for holocaust denial...why not just call it what it is?) can be powerful and produce effects? If you do, then perhaps attacking ridiculous ideas - in this instance that a fascist government and its state machinery sought to systematically kill certain sections of the population under its control - is not so much the 21st century _thought crime_ you'd have us believe, but more of a duty.

If I were you I'd stop digging, step out of the hole and just walk away.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

when you believe something and spout it out to all and sundry you must face the consequences of your words. he is the one who said it. other people aren't making it up, he is the one who is saying this shite. so fuck his free speech. he has the right to say whatever he wants and other people have the right to react. 

and for all this stuff about how its in the interest of the establishment to suppress the so-called truth about the holocaust, well, as i have said there are plenty of instances where it has been in the interests of those in power to deny - and very recently too. the activities of the ustasha/nazi run "independent state of croatia". the gypsies. the role of the catholic church and founder membmers of opus dei. the exaples that spring to mind most readily that most people do not even know about that have been symatically denied in order to maintain the status quo and justify ethnic cleanisng. 

and somehow it is made to look like the deniers are the ones who are trying to expose the truth to the world and that if you oppose holocaust denial you're opposing free speech. what utter bullshit. 

its always in peoples interests to deny genocide and downplay it. denying any genocide is like denying the holocaust and it is done for the same reason by people who want it to happen again. 

we have a fucking duty to all those who died to make sure such ideas never take hold again. we have a duty to stop fascism and protect people from it. so fuck people like kollerstrom, the most i can say is that he should be grateful he's not living in a fash society where instead of denying the holocaust, he would be expected to glorify it or end up in a gas chamber.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I asked you some questions above fela - fancy answering them?



No, not really, not relevant.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Maybe i'll bow out. Too emotional round these parts.
> 
> You just carry on.



That's the other thing that conspiraloons always do - the 'emotional' slur. Anyone who criticises them is 'emotional' or has some emotional investment in suppressing 'The Truth'. 
Like they don't have deep, deep emotional involvement in the idea that the world is run by a shadowy cabal. Because it makes them feel better about their own high levels of paranoia and mistrust to project their own personal shit and feelings of inadequacy onto everything and call it proof of a conspiracy.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 21, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> *Reputable* academics usually give chapter and verse on the sources of those theories, though, Mr. 66. Dr Kollerstrom hasn't deigned to do so.



I wish you'd stop insinuating that I'm in some way defending his ramblings because I'm not.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No, not really, not relevant.



Eh? It's *your* point though. That people should attack the idea not the person. It's 100% relavent to ask what this entails. So any answer?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> When Kollerstrom  lies about the experiences and the deaths of thousands on 9/11 and dozens on 7/7, I suppose it is a short hop from there to lying about 6m dead in the Holocaust. Personally, I think he came at it the other way.



Yeah, it's a short hop for him.

But, c'mon, how many people that read this drivel are going to be swayed by it?

My point, which you seem thus far to miss, is that it's better to hear such crap out loud, so that we can reject it.

But emotiveness is the order of the day.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Eh? It's *your* point though. That people should attack the idea not the person. It's 100% relavent to ask what this entails. So any answer?



No.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> My point, which you seem thus far to miss, is that it's better to hear such crap out loud, so that we can reject it.



Yet if you reject it you're witchhunting.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> That's the other thing that conspiraloons always do - the 'emotional' slur. Anyone who criticises them is 'emotional' or has some emotional investment in suppressing 'The Truth'.
> Like they don't have deep, deep emotional involvement in the idea that the world is run by a shadowy cabal. Because it makes them feel better about their own high levels of paranoia and mistrust to project their own personal shit and feelings of inadequacy onto everything and call it proof of a conspiracy.



Don't forget BK emotions are bad...however intuition is great; 'there's just something not right about the whole official 9/11 and 7/7 stories...don't ask me how but I know it'.

Louis (glad he can't just turn his emotions on and off to order) MacNeice


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Louis (glad he can't just turn his emotions on and off to order) MacNeice


Puny human!


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No.



So i ask you why you chose to make that point and that criticism of people on here repeatdly and if you now take it back?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No.



Why not?


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Yeah, it's a short hop for him.
> 
> But, c'mon, how many people that read this drivel are going to be swayed by it?
> 
> My point, which you seem thus far to miss, is that it's better to hear such crap out loud, so that we can reject it.



yea, but if you'd been following this thread it would appear that an increasing milieu within the 9/11 truth groupings are in fact, NOT 'rejecting it' but, quite to the contrary seem to be digesting it and espousing it along with their other crack-pot concepts.

to that extent i'd say it is more insidious and dangerous than david irving et al as they are seen quite clearly for the nazi-apologists they are, where-as there is a dangerous cross-pollenisation between what would seem to be holocaust deniers and those who would probably regard themselves as libertarian or at least radical who have unfortunately fallen for this 'truther' bullshit.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> That's the other thing that conspiraloons always do - the 'emotional' slur. Anyone who criticises them is 'emotional' or has some emotional investment in suppressing 'The Truth'.
> Like they don't have deep, deep emotional involvement in the idea that the world is run by a shadowy cabal. Because it makes them feel better about their own high levels of paranoia and mistrust to project their own personal shit and feelings of inadequacy onto everything and call it proof of a conspiracy.



Hey, you, fuck off. Reducing my whole argument to being a 'conspiraloon'. Look at you, just look at your whole point of reasoning. I come along, you don't like my opinion, so you pass me off as a 'conspiraloon'... job done.

You have reacted to me in exactly the same way as you are reacting to this man you don't like. And so, a label. You are a danger to the mass readership of the media in britain. You are prejudiced.

You're totally about emotional reactions and it's pretty boring/ugly really.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yea, but if you'd been following this thread it would appear that an increasing milieu within the 9/11 truth groupings are in fact, NOT 'rejecting it' but, quite to the contrary seem to be digesting it and espousing it along with their other crack-pot concepts.
> 
> to that extent i'd say it is more insidious and dangerous than david irving et al as they are seen quite clearly for the nazi-apologists they are, where-as there is a dangerous cross-pollenisation between what would seen to be holocaust deniers and those who would probably regard themselves as libertarian or at least radical who have unfortunately fallen for this 'truther' bullshit.



Yep.

 And this was my point. Not 'look at this one loon and his loony hate views' but 'look at how he is part of the 9/11 and 7/7 conspiracy theorist set'.

Look how he contributes to their boards, attends their meetings, campaigns alongside them. Look at how his posts are tolerated.

Look at how *comfortable* he feels amongst them. Look at how comfortable he is with their theories. He sees them as being on the same side as him.

Look at how uncomfortable they are when his views are flagged up. Look at how defensive they get.

Look.

Think.

See.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

BA - I think Fela just used it as a phrase to undermine the attacks on NK's holocaust denials (why he should want to do so isn't clear, but defence of a fellow 9/11 sceptic might be sufficient rationale), without ever thinking what it would actually mean to attack the ideas and not the person; it's a fairly common phrase after all. Given that it is pretty content free (other than a sort of general appeal not to be so nasty) I don't expect Fela is able, let alone willing, to answer your question.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Hey, you, fuck off. Reducing my whole argument to being a 'conspiraloon'. Look at you, just look at your whole point of reasoning. I come along, you don't like my opinion, so you pass me off as a 'conspiraloon'... job done.
> 
> You have reacted to me in exactly the same way as you are reacting to this man you don't like. And so, a label. You are a danger to the mass readership of the media in britain. You are prejudiced.
> 
> You're totally about emotional reactions and it's pretty boring/ugly really.



But there are a number of people that have reacted to you in the same way fela.

Why single out BK?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

You ARE a conspiraloon fela, you earned your label with the umpteen thousand posts you've wasted on 911 threads.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You are a danger to the mass readership of the media in britain.





Priceless!


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yea, but if you'd been following this thread it would appear that an increasing milieu within the 9/11 truth groupings are in fact, NOT 'rejecting it' but, quite to the contrary seem to be digesting it and espousing it along with their other crack-pot concepts.



At first i followed the thread. Then when i saw the invited witchhunt over jazz i began to skim it.

After all, it's fucking long by now!

I really don't give a fuck about this 'truth' stuff.

I"ve made clear i'm talking about ideas, not the people who hold them.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Yep.
> 
> And this was my point. Not 'look at this one loon and his loony hate views' but 'look at how he is part of the 9/11 and 7/7 conspiracy theorist set'.
> 
> ...



Who is 'he'?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> At first i followed the thread. Then when i saw the invited witchhunt over jazz i began to skim it.
> 
> After all, it's fucking long by now!
> 
> ...



Where? How? What does that mean? How have you been clear?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> At first i followed the thread. Then when i saw the invited witchhunt over jazz i began to skim it.
> 
> After all, it's fucking long by now!
> 
> ...



So why not answer BA's question then; it does seem to be very important to you.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> BA - I think Fela just used it as a phrase to undermine the attacks on NK's holocaust denials (why he should want to do so isn't clear, but defence of a fellow 9/11 sceptic might be sufficient rationale), without ever thinking what it would actually mean to attack the ideas and not the person; it's a fairly common phrase after all. Given that it is pretty content free (other than a sort of general appeal not to be so nasty) I don't expect Fela is able, let alone willing, to answer your question.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Whilst _we_ know that Louis...


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Who is 'he'?



NK...he is the one denying the holocaust; I would have thought that was clear?

Louis MacNeice


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> BA - I think Fela just used it as a phrase to undermine the attacks on NK's holocaust denials (why he should want to do so isn't clear, but defence of a fellow 9/11 sceptic might be sufficient rationale), without ever thinking what it would actually mean to attack the ideas and not the person; it's a fairly common phrase after all. Given that it is pretty content free (other than a sort of general appeal not to be so nasty) I don't expect Fela is able, let alone willing, to answer your question.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



Louis, thank you, but i'm not here to defend any 911 sceptic.

I'm here to debate ideas, not people.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Louis, thank you, but i'm not here to defend any 911 sceptic.
> 
> I'm here to debate ideas, not people.



You haven't even grasped the ideas yet, so how on earth can you debate them?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> But there are a number of people that have reacted to you in the same way fela.
> 
> Why single out BK?



She started the thread.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> But there are a number of people that have reacted to you in the same way fela.
> 
> Why single out BK?



Possibly because I have publicly and repeatedly spoken out against conspiracy theories for nearly three years and done my level best to undermine their credibility? Possibly because the conpiracy theory people questioning 7/7 would love to have me or anyone else who was directly involved  on their side to give them legitimacy - after all - I've campaigned for a 7/7 inquiry for ages with other people directly involved and not one of the people directly involved wants anything to do with their ''7/7 truth'' bollocks, a fact which infuriates the '7/7 Truthers' and has led to a stream of personal abuse being directed my way for years?

The 7/7 Conspiraloons really hate me. It was however, strategically necessary to make it absolutely crystal clear that the survivor/family campaign for a 7/7 inquiry was nothing to do with loonbats. Or we'd never have got through the door to challenge the Government. This involved a spokesperson speaking out and taking the flak. I got volunteered to manage both the endless media inquiries  and conspiraloons as part of the campaign. Someone had to do it, and other people do other stuff.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Who is 'he'?



Nick Kollerstrom, duh


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> She started the thread.



Have you completely lost your faculty for critical reasoning?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> You ARE a conspiraloon fela, you earned your label with the umpteen thousand posts you've wasted on 911 threads.



Well, if that's your viewpoint, then there's nothing else to say on the point. Except that you've completely fucked it up.

But i doubt you'll accept that state of affairs...


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> You haven't even grasped the ideas yet, so how on earth can you debate them?



Just your impression.

And how wrong you are cesare.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Fela fan, do you think 9/11 and 7/7 were 'inside jobs'?

Yes or no?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> She started the thread.



Do you mind if I show my kids this post, just so they can see that their primary school debating techniques will still be useful in later life...'she started it miss'...very good.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Just your impression.
> 
> And how wrong you are cesare.



But you've just told chico that you skimmed the thread!!!

*puts head in hands*


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Possibly because I have publicly and repeatedly spoken out against conspiracy theories for nearly three years and done my level best to undermine their credibility? Possibly because the conpiracy theory people questioning 7/7 would love to have me or anyone else who was directly involved  on their side to give them legitimacy - after all - I've campaigned for a 7/7 inquiry for ages with other people directly involved and not one of the people directly involved wants anything to do with their ''7/7 truth'' bollocks, a fact which infuriates the '7/7 Truthers' and has led to a stream of personal abuse being directed my way for years?
> 
> The 7/7 Conspiraloons really hate me. It was however, strategically necessary to make it absolutely crystal clear that the survivor/family campaign for a 7/7 inquiry was nothing to do with loonbats. Or we'd never have got through the door to challenge the Government. This involved a spokesperson speaking out and taking the flak. I got volunteered to manage both the endless media inquiries  and conspiraloons as part of the campaign. Someone had to do it, and other people do other stuff.



All you're talking about is your own emotional investment in the whole topic.

Oh how they 'really hate me'.

Conspiraloons

Loonbats.

You're just so full of emotive language, yet you are part of the english media. 

Oh dear.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Have you completely lost your faculty for critical reasoning?



No.

What on earth brings about such a weird question?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You're just so full of emotive language, yet you are part of the english media.



You'd rather she shut up or summat?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fela fan, do you think 9/11 and 7/7 were 'inside jobs'?
> 
> Yes or no?



I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No.
> 
> What on earth brings about such a weird question?



Probably just intuition


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> You'd rather she shut up or summat?



NO, but is she's going to talk about the people rather than the opinions they hold, then i'm going to call it.

What the fuck are you on about?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

I run the English media, don't you know, Fela fan. I control it all. Mwah ha  ha

Honestly, look at yourself.

 So - do you think 9/11 and 7/7 are inside jobs?

yes or no?

By the way, all the other people who have expressed emotions and used the word 'conspiraloon' on urban, are they emotionally invested as well? And do you have any thoughts about their role in relation to 'the English media'?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> You haven't even grasped the ideas yet, so how on earth can you debate them?





fela fan said:


> Just your impression.
> 
> And how wrong you are cesare.





cesare said:


> But you've just told chico that you skimmed the thread!!!
> 
> *puts head in hands*





fela fan said:


> I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Well, if that's your viewpoint, then there's nothing else to say on the point. Except that you've completely fucked it up.
> 
> But i doubt you'll accept that state of affairs...


On your word alone? Without a shred of reason to weigh against the torrent of past paranoid postings? Nah.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.



I see. Well, thank you for answering.

 And would this be be supported by any facts, or just 'intuition' - an *emotional* response?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> NO, but is she's going to talk about the people rather than the opinions they hold, then i'm going to call it.
> 
> What the fuck are you on about?



So it's all right for you to call someone on it, but it's not alright for us?

Argh.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Do you mind if I show my kids this post, just so they can see that their primary school debating techniques will still be useful in later life...'she started it miss'...very good.
> 
> Louis MacNeice



You go ahead louis, but be sure to show the question you posed that lead to my answer.

Otherwise you'd be finding yourself in a dishonest position.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Fela fan, do you think 9/11 and 7/7 were 'inside jobs'?
> 
> Yes or no?


http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5963485&postcount=36

Yeah, he thinks it's all a CIA plot.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Is he always like this?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> NO, but is she's going to talk about the people rather than the opinions they hold, then i'm going to call it.
> 
> What the fuck are you on about?



How, pray, do you suggest a thread about Nick Kollerstrom's holocaust denial is couched, without referring to the person espousing the views?

(* I ask on behalf of the English media, because obviously when I post on a BB, I am speaking for, and am representative of, the entire English media.)


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Is he always like this?


Pretty much, sometimes goes with mirrors although only he reflects or something like that.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I see. Well, thank you for answering.
> 
> And would this be be supported by any facts, or just 'intuition' - an *emotional* response?



No, it's not supported by intuition, or any emotion.

It's supported by all sorts of more...

But that is only going to attact more derision, and that is as it should be. Derision on this forum is so much easier than proper debate.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> NO, but is she's going to talk about the people rather than the opinions they hold, then i'm going to call it.
> 
> What the fuck are you on about?



So if someone says that there was no holocaust, and suggests that there is a Jewish conspiracy behind maintaining it as a 'fact', then I'm not allowed to call that person a racist and a fool? Would that be me talking about the person rather than the idea? If you're going to persist with this distinction, you really need to clarify what you mean.

Louis MacNeice


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=5963485&postcount=36
> 
> Yeah, he thinks it's all a CIA plot.



I"m flattered.

How come you keep such extensive records eh bob?

Threads have their own context eh. You've managed to completely irreduce a context, just like that.

Well done lad. What a debater you are.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No, it's not supported by intuition, or any emotion.
> 
> It's supported by all sorts of more...
> 
> But that is only going to attact more derision, and that is as it should be. Derision on this forum is so much easier than proper debate.



You can't debate, because you haven't grasped what the debate is about. You haven't read the thread properly, or followed the links - and you don't even seem to have absorbed the information that has been given to you since you joined the thread. 

It looks as though you're doing it on purpose to steer the thread away from the topic. Is that right?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I don't really know much about 7/7, but i* instinctively feel *that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.
> 
> 
> No, it's not supported by intuition, or any emotion.



Ah, the old 'instinctively feel' proof, so useful in court and when debating holocaust deniers.

I instinctively feel that you are making an arse of yourself on this thread. Case proved! I'll alert the English media, shall I?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I"m flattered.
> 
> How come you keep such extensive records eh bob?
> 
> ...


You plum, advanced search LIHOP and conspiracy and fela fan. That'll get you it. No personal records needed.

I am an acceptable debater but your opinions on the causes of 911 don't require debate, they're something you've stated on a repeated basis, unless you'd like to revise them (as is your right)...


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Ah, the old 'instinctively feel' proof, so useful in court and when debating holocaust deniers.
> 
> I instinctively feel that you are making an arse of yourself on this thread. Case proved! I'll alert the English media, shall I?


This has to be a windup, wasn't there a "instinct" pisstake a few pages back?


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Is he always like this?



A pathetic reduction of the person if they seem to have the wrong opinions.

Is he always like this?

That is actually a fucking rude question, never mind its irrelevance. 

You talk about me as if i'm an object.

Shame on you and your attempts to be a debater.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> A pathetic reduction of the person if they seem to have the wrong opinions.
> 
> Is he always like this?
> 
> ...



It's an entirely relevant question if you look at what I've just asked you.

If I was referring to you as an object, I would have said 'is it always like this?' btw.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> This has to be a windup, wasn't there a "instinct" pisstake a few pages back?



Yeah, that was me.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

I instinctively feel that we should get back to the good doctor NK and leave Fela to work on his alternative narrative for this thread, which he hasn't read; that's the one where he showed everybody else up as closed minded, bullies, suffering from emotional diarrhoea.

So what's the state of play re. the good doctors employer?

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Well at least we now know why you're a tad touchy about Kollerstrom's views, Fela fan. He's a Truther, you're a Truther, Truther 'truths' are being questioned, handbags at dawn.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Ah, the old 'instinctively feel' proof, so useful in court and when debating holocaust deniers.
> 
> I instinctively feel that you are making an arse of yourself on this thread. Case proved! I'll alert the English media, shall I?



Court? What are you now going on about?

We're not in court here, we're in debate. We're in forums where voices of opinions are heard.

But in your case, they should  be fucking vanished.

And if i'm making an arse about myself, then that's up to the likes of you, so fucking what. You just continue to judge the debater, you cannot get away from dealing with the issues can you badger kitten...?

That's what makes you a dangerous, yet typical, contributer to english media.


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah, that was me.


Got any tips on the lottery numbers this week?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> I instinctively feel that we should get back to the good doctor NK and leave Fela to work on his alternative narrative for this thread, which he hasn't read; that's the one where he showed everybody else up as closed minded, bullies, suffering from emotional diarrhoea.
> 
> So what's the state of play re. the good doctors employer?
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice



He's not employed by UCL but is an honourary research fellow at the Science and Tech dept. A matter which I understand UCL are looking into having been alerted by various people to Kollerstrom's essays on Jews and the Holocaust and 'Zionism', which they were unaware of until Friday.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> We're not in court here, we're in debate. We're in forums where voices of opinions are heard.
> 
> But *in your case, they should  be fucking vanished*
> 
> ...



I _see_. Free speech, what was it you were saying about it again? 
Dear God, you couldn't make it up.


----------



## mango5 (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> We're not in court here, we're in debate. We're in forums where voices of opinions are heard.


You're not debating, you're sounding off.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> He's not employed by UCL but is an honourary research fellow at the Science and Tech dept. A matter which I understand UCL are looking into having been alerted by various people to Kollerstrom's essays on Jews and the Holocaust and 'Zionism', which they were unaware of until Friday.



Yes I should have said his academic affiliation. Good to know UCL have been informed of his 'journalism'; it will be interesting to see what they do.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Court? What are you now going on about?
> 
> We're not in court here, we're in debate. We're in forums where voices of opinions are heard.
> 
> But in your case, they should  be fucking vanished.



So Mr McCarthy, how's the election campaign going?

Does hypocrisy get any better than this?



fela fan said:


> I agree, but the likes of badger kitten want to get rid of this man, since his speech is so abhorrent to them. She seems to want to return to the macarthyism of the US. Wrong opinion, get the fucker, wipe him out, ruin him.
> 
> It's just violence.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Well at least we now know why you're a tad touchy about Kollerstrom's views, Fela fan. He's a Truther, you're a Truther, Truther 'truths' are being questioned, handbags at dawn.



You, a journalist for the british media, getting such a basic thing wrong as calling me, a complete stranger, a 'truther'...

tch tch.

How so easy to write people off with such simple-to-use labels.

You're a fucking disgrace badger kitten, and i only mean that in the context that you have the opportunity of writing in the media.

Did you not even read what i thought about kollerstrom? No, your reading skills are probably just as bad as your writing skills. Another example of such shit that readers of the british press have to put up with. I told the forum, and that includes you, that i thought his views were, shall we say, reprehensible, pathetic, terrible... i think you really should get the picture.

But, no, all you're interested in is disparaging me, just as you have been doing with this contemptible kollerstrom man.

All you're about is having a go about other people, nothing about their views. 

You're a disgrace to the media, more so than the man you are attacking in this thread.

And for sure, you are no doubt a nicer person than he is. But you have fucked it all up through your attitude towards his person rather than his views.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

mango5 said:


> You're not debating, you're sounding off.



Bullshit, i'm debating. How can you get it so wrong...?


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

Isn't disgrace a label?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela, you've registered your disapproval now, very clearly. Have you got anything to contribute to the thread apart from that?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Source?



I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .



> How is it a 'moral equivalency fallacy'?



Link

Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.



> Care to answer my question in 848?



I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same. 

Since it isn't, no.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Fela has no point other than to derail this thread to take flak away from his conspiraloon mates.

Ignore the prick.

Has Kollerstrom been fired yet!


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> fela, you've registered your disapproval now, very clearly. Have you got anything to contribute to the thread apart from that?



No.

But my contribution has its reason within this.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .
> 
> 
> 
> Link




Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.

[/quote]Care to answer my question in 848?[/QUOTE]

I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same. 

Since it isn't, no.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the links. I don't accept that the comparison is a fallacy in the context I gave it, but I don't think anybody is interested. Guess that makes me an anti-semite in your view, such as it is.  Nor are any of the communists interested in answering my question.

I don't think that we should associate everybody that questions the events of 911 with holocaust denial. I have questions and doubts about 911. I don't identify with the 911 truth truth movement or deny the holocaust.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Fela has no point other than to derail this thread to take flak away from his conspiraloon mates.
> 
> Ignore the prick.
> 
> Has Kollerstrom been fired yet!



You fantasist.

And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?

Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You, a journalist for the british media, getting such a basic thing wrong as calling me, a complete stranger, a 'truther'...
> 
> tch tch.
> 
> ...




Felafan, you said this
I have consistently been posting about Kollerstrom's views, the views held by Kollerstrom, which is what the thread is about.  Have you read the thread at all?

So have other people.

Why are you getting so emotional and going off on one? Why are you attacking me in particular, when dozens of other people on this thread and on blogs have said exactly the same thing as me about Kollerstrom's views? Is there a particular reason? My job? I am a freelancer, I'm not employed by any media organisation. What has that got to do with me writing on a BB in my spare time, like hundreds of other people? Why the highly emotional personal abuse? 

I'm not upset, just interested. Your reaction is very strong.

And you ARE a Truther - or a conspiracy theorist, if you prefer; you said 9/11 was a conspiracy and the official account a fabrication and they made it happen on purpose using 'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'. Go and read your very own words


----------



## Bob_the_lost (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You fantasist.
> 
> And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?
> 
> Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...


Yeah, cos universities are really quick when it comes to bureaucracy...

Jesus you're out of touch with reality fela, but i will refer to this post when he is disciplined later to remind you of your stupidity.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Can anyone give any examples of PC, anti-racist holocaust denial btw? Is NK the first?




In twenty years of following this nonsense, not one (though a number have taken pains to deny their antisemitism in the "why, some of my best friends..." mode). 

For the past dozen years I've levelled the same challange I did earlier in this thread: "find a single website or forum where Holocaust 'revisionism' is promoted that isn't tainted by antisemitica unrelated to the events of WWII."

So far, none have qualified.

Few deniers I've encountered online have been as easy to slam-dunk as a raving antisemite than Kollerstrom. As I mentioned earlier he's on the very fringe of the "revisionist" movenment on a number of key issues. I'd imagine he's been getting a number of emails these past few days from more than a few mainstream deniers urging him to stfu already.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> You fantasist.
> 
> And if he's not been fired yet, i just wonder why?
> 
> Obviously urban has less impact than it might think it has then...



The Uni found out on *Friday night* and it was the first they knew of it, from everything I hear.
I hear they are on the case.
They have effectively had one working day to presumably, get the right people and have a meeting with, one assumes, the Provost and others, such as the Head of Science and Technology and the Dept of Holocaust studies, get hold of/contact Kollerstrom AND do all the other things they already had planned for today.

 I think they deserve a bit of time to sort it out, don't you?.
Kollerstrom is not employed by them, he is an honourary  research fellow affiliated to the department of science and technology, a position which is in their gift and also theirs to take away.


----------



## ymu (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Fela, do you dispute the fact that 6 million or so Jewish, disabled and others were exterminated in death camps?


It was around 6 million Jews, 12 million total.



EddyBlack said:


> Just thought I’d have my two cents, I think it is a fair question. Do communists accept that communist regimes deliberately murdered millions of people in close parallel to the NAZIs.
> 
> If so how do they justify they’re continued adherence to this hateful and murderous ideology?


The British deliberately starved 20 million people to death in India. I don't justify continued adherence to that hateful and murderous ideology either.

Do we have to choose between different historical models of barbarism, or  is it possible to criticise something without automatically having to support its semantic opposite?



EddyBlack said:


> On the one hand you have the Neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers, and their affiliates in conspiracy theorist circles. On the other you have communists who refuse to answer the question of what they would do with their enemies in a revolution. I thought that they would have had a ready answer.
> 
> So what is the alternative to repression, genocide etc. for those troublesome enemies of the revolution and class enemies. Assuming they don't think that Stalin had the right idea, I'd be interested to know. Or are they simply in denial about what their ideology invariably leads to.


We live in an economic system built on and sustained by repression and genocide. Are you in denial about that?


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I'd start with the Usenet group, alt.revisionism, where it's been a recurring theme for more than a dozen years .
> 
> 
> 
> Link




Bringing the Ukrainian famine into a discussion of Nazi atrocities is such a fallacy, one that's irresistable to antisemites in particular because most adhere to the fiction that communism is an inherently "Jewish" movement.

[/quote]Care to answer my question in 848?[/QUOTE]

I might, if I were a communist, or if this thread were about communist atrocities and denial of same. 

Since it isn't, no.[/QUOTE]

So is the 'Ukranian famine' or the deliberate starvation of millions of Ukranian farmers not also an atrocity. Of course it is, but where is the real difference. Ideological state genocide. It was a _deliberate_ famine. So unless any of the communists care to answer my questions, which they don't, I will leave it there.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Though its unfair to label all 9/11 sceptics as holocaust deniers, its fair to say the bulk of their selective 'evidence' has been put together by holocaust doubters and wankers with an agenda to blame all the Jews.

Kollerstrom is just one part of it.
American Free Press (who pass off their shit as AFP file, a valid French news agency) are another.

So is David Icke.

This has been proven here time and again, so lets not waste time responding to Fela Fans whining.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Felafan, you said this
> I have consistently been posting about Kollerstrom's views, the views held by Kollerstrom, which is what the thread is about.  Have you read the thread at all?
> 
> So have other people.
> ...



The very moment you call me a 'truther', is the moment you lose the plot in your debate. 

You're interested in my reaction, yet you are so emphatically sure of who i am. Don't you get it???

I have never once called 911 a conspiracy.

I'm attacking your views, not you. Unlike you. I"m not pointing any 'emotional personal abuse' at you at all. You have singularly failed to understand my posts.

That is why i'm responding to you the way i am.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> This has been proven here time and again, so lets not waste time responding to Fela Fans whining.



Even though i've accepted it all.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 21, 2008)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Yeah, cos universities are really quick when it comes to bureaucracy...
> 
> Jesus you're out of touch with reality fela, but i will refer to this post when he is disciplined later to remind you of your stupidity.



Fine.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Still think people are being a tad po faced about Kollerstrom's departure from this notion of pure, referenced social science.  We all know that academia contains as many values and agendas as any other walk of life. Similarly  the 'using his PhD' thing.  He might not have even got the PhD at ucl and anyway, its in a different discipline.



How does that matter to you? He used his academic title (obtained in a non-related field) as a means to pose as an authority in WWI history with the sole aim to underscore and administer credibility to his historical revisionism.

There is nothing valid on or about historical revisionism. On the issue of the Holocaust such is illegal in several countries. 



> The fact that he is an 'academic' doesn't make this any worse than it already is - its bad enough that he lies about the death of 6 million people.



*Yes it does make it much worse* because ----> see comment above and all my other comments in this thread. 

salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

> The very moment you call me a 'truther', is the moment you lose the plot in your debate.



But you are. You believe that 9/11 was a conspiracy. *You said it. *



> You're interested in my reaction, yet you are so emphatically sure of who i am. Don't you get it???



You are someone who said 9/11 was a conspiracy. You said it. You also said


> I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.



Okay? You said that too. 


> *I have never once called 911 a conspiracy.
> *




Yes, you did. Here you go,


> I'm attacking your views, not you


. 

You are having a go at me because of my work, you are calling me 'dangerous' and 'a fucking disgrace', you've disparaged my reading and writing skills, so please don't pretend that this is anything other than attacking me. Especially as you are only attacking me, and doing so in a very emotional way despite the fact that dozens of other people have said similar things to me.



> You're a fucking disgrace badger kitten, and i only mean that in the context that you have the opportunity of writing in the media.
> 
> Did you not even read what i thought about kollerstrom? No, your reading skills are probably just as bad as your writing skills. Another example of such shit that readers of the british press have to put up with. I told the forum, and that includes you, that i thought his views were, shall we say, reprehensible, pathetic, terrible... i think you really should get the picture.
> 
> ...






> Unlike you. I"m not pointing any 'emotional personal abuse' at you at all. You have singularly failed to understand my posts.
> 
> That is why i'm responding to you the way i am.



I have completely understood your posts in so far as they make any sense at all. Your claim that you are not having a go at me and that you never called 9/11 a conspiracy are total lies. Bullshit. You wrote, in answer to a thread called 'Is 9/11 a conspiracy'



> In answer to the thread's question, yes it was. Who did the conspiring is what is open to question. But it was a conspiracy, that then turned into action. Theory and planning converted into practice.
> 
> The official story is a fabrication.
> 
> ...



I think you have lost the plot in the debate, not me. You're all over the place. You're very emotional. 

You're best ignored from here on, I think.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

astro3 said:
			
		

> The US State Department defines ‘anti-semitism’ in terms of criticism of Israel*



He cites a web forum for this? I think he's half-truthing here, but then, that's what deniers do...



> Personally I'm very pro-Semitic: Semitic races are Arab, and not more than 15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction. Do I digress?



This just underscores what a hopeless n00b this guy is. "Antisemitism" was coined in the late 19th century by the antisemite, Wilhelm Marr, as a kinder, gentler way to express Jew-hatred than the word previously used in his writings, _Judenhaß_. It's never meant anything else. 

The Semitic origin of present-day Jews, including the Ashkanazim of Eastern Europe, is beyond question, it having been proven in study after study that the "Khazar" theory of Ashkanazi origins is false. 

His contention that "15% of Israeli citizens are of Semitic extraction" is risable, since the Arab population of Israel is greater than that and even if he chooses, as many antisemites do, to ignore the Semitic origin of Ashkanazim, he apparently also discounts Sephardic Jews as "Semites". 

There just aren't enough eye-rolling smilies for this idiot.


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2008)

Fela ; "I believe that elites in the US government conspired to cause sept 11th" 

Anyone with an ounce of sanity; "So you're a conspiracy theorist?"

Fela; "Woa, woa woa, who used the words "conspiracy" man."

Fucking sniveling disingenuous drivel. Say what you like about Kollerstrom, at least he has fucking convictions and says what he believes. Fela doesn't even have that.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> Even though i've accepted it all.



Why then can you not accept why NK as well as his ideas are fair game for attack?

The man is inventing and repeating facist hate propaganda and lies.

He's also made it his business to call BK a liar, attack her personally in real life and online, because her eye witness accounts don't fit with his anti semitic lies and bullshit revisionist nazi apologist agenda.

Nick Kollerstrom deserves everything he gets.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Guess that makes me an anti-semite in your view, such as it is.



Nowhere did I say that; and frankly I resent the implication. I'm usually quite careful about how I express myself, given the varying degrees of reading comprehension on these boards. 

If I wasn't clear enough, please accept my apologies.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

idiots like him are the people who allow the israeli gov't to gain such wide support for their crimes, because the holocaust deniers and anti-semites use "zionism" as a code word for "jews" when they are not the same thing at all. the people writing propaganda for israel, know this and seek to emphasise the idea that zionist and jews are the same at every opportunity. people are scared of criticising the israeli government for fear of appearing anti-semitic. whose fault is that? partly the zionists to be sure. but the zionists wouldn't have a leg to stand on if it wasn't for the fash imagining a jew around every corner. 

think about it.

zionism doesnt mean zionism, as in jewish nationalism, the founding ideology of the state of israel, to these people, it means jews. and that is handing a massive propaganda coup to the Israeli government. right there. after all what better way to discredit your critics and discourage jewish people from supporting them, than by accusing them of being racists and nazis, and holocaust deniers. 

in whose interests is it to claim that zionists and jews are the same, claim massive jewish/zionist conspiracies controlling the world where they dont exist? and to make it out like "zionism" is the cause of everything bad thats ever happened in the world? 

only the zionist who want to terrify jews into imagining anti-semitism where it is not there, into not questioning the israeli government and even the legitimacy of the zionist enterprise, and the fash who are convinced that jews are the cause of the world's evils. 

the fash aren't some people who happen to have "wacky ideas". this shit hurts real people.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

8den said:


> Fela ; "I believe that elites in the US government conspired to cause sept 11th"
> 
> Anyone with an ounce of sanity; "So you're a conspiracy theorist?"
> 
> ...



I don't think it's fair to lump fela fan in with the "Truthers" here - he believes, from what I can tell, in some collusion happening at the highest level rather than the 'remote-controlled planes hit the WTC-controlled demolition felled the towers-that was a missile hitting the Pentagon-those were computer-generated voices calling their families' theories. 

I'm definitely not in agreement with him there - but it's a belief that's hard to disprove, so consequently a bit different from the "controlled demolition etc." theories that are perpetuated in the face of loads & loads of things to easily prove them wrong, and are much more akin to that fool Kollerstrom's "Holohoax" theories.


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 21, 2008)

WTF happened to this thread?

fela - WTF? BK has found that a member of the 7/7 'truth' movement is a Holocaust denier, and she and several other people (most of the internet it seems) have informed the university he is at of this. 

I presume from all your comments about 'witchhunts' that you think it's OK for academics at globally recognised institutions to tell lies, using their academic status as a basis of credibility? 

Or is it simply, as others have said, that you're getting defensive over another truther being exposed as an anti-semite?

EddyBlack: a good communist revolution that led to a society that accepted workers' ownership of MOP etc etc in the majority wouldn't need to lock anyone away - in such a society where the basis tenets of communism were accepted by the vast majorty, and that didn't have a centralised hierarchy, could happily let someone spout capitalism, theism and every other -ism you can think of and _not be worried_ that these ideas could create a counter-rev since the vast majority in a society would just laugh at them.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Nowhere did I say that; and frankly I resent the implication. I'm usually quite careful about how I express myself, given the varying degrees of reading comprehension on these boards.
> 
> If I wasn't clear enough, please accept my apologies.



Fair enough. Good to know.

I'm also glad to see that people also can aknowledge that not all sceptics of the official 911 account are henceforth deemed anti-semites or are simply parroting holocaust deniers and their anti-semitic beliefs, although there are many that clearly do.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> He cites a web forum for this? I think he's half-truthing here, but then, that's what deniers do...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yep - 'anti-semitic' isn't a completely accurate term for Jew-hating but it's pretty much universally accepted as shorthand for such and I've never seen an utterance like "I'm not anti-semitic, Semites include..." not followed up with something about the evils of the Jews.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan has been quite clear that he thought 911 was a CIA type thing or summat, rather than part of this (zionist = jewish) cabal running the world, tbf.

But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it


----------



## fishfinger (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 21, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> WTF happened to this thread?...
> 
> EddyBlack: a good communist revolution that led to a society that accepted workers' ownership of MOP etc etc in the majority wouldn't need to lock anyone away - in such a society where the basis tenets of communism were accepted by the vast majorty, and that didn't have a centralised hierarchy, could happily let someone spout capitalism, theism and every other -ism you can think of and _not be worried_ that these ideas could create a counter-rev since the vast majority in a society would just laugh at them.



That works up until about the time that the rulers start acting like demented bastards, and significant amounts of people become disatisfied. I'm not sure such a system could work on a democratic basis unless as you say the 'vast majority' supported a communist system.

Leaving aside the reality that significant numbers from whatever class will be implacably opposed, leading to the need to oppress and control the populace for the system to function, I guess that would be the answer to my question.

I'm not against socialist principles btw, but a true communist society would inevitably lead to oppression and violence, unless it was enthusiastcly supported by, lets say... 96.2 per cent of the total population. Otherwise you've got lots of pesky 'class enemies' on the lose.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

High fives all round!

Who's next!?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Yay UCL!


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it



Dunno - I'm not sure why the label "witch-hunt" is getting slapped around so liberally on this thread either, as if it applied to a "holocaust denier-hunt." 

As far as I understand it, the meaning of the term, whether in Salem or in Hollywood during Mccarthyism, applies to 'witches' being hunted down and falsely accused during a time of hysteria, whereas Kollenstrom is pretty much hovering on a broomstick with a black cat on his shoulder saying "Yes, I am a witch."


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> High fives all round!
> 
> Who's next!?



Saved you a trip to the printers innit


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Well done BK, I think UCL owe you one as well, for bringing this to their attention.

Swift work!

Newsworthy item too methinks!


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Saved you a trip to the printers innit



Yep. I was going for the waterproof 2 colour print, so it saved a few quid too!


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> High fives all round!
> 
> Who's next!?




Meanwhile, somewhere across town, a JobCenter consultant thought "I'm not sure we're ever going to fill this vacancy for a purple gold-maker..."


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

What is it with loons and the colour purple?


----------



## Darios (Apr 21, 2008)

OK, I respected FMs request and remained out of the thread as my discussion with VP on 'conspiracy' was taking it off topic. It's now spent a few pages touching on the issue I was originally concerned with again.



EddyBlack said:


> I'm also glad to see that people also can aknowledge that not all sceptics of the official 911 account are henceforth deemed anti-semites or are simply parroting holocaust deniers and their anti-semitic beliefs, although there are many that clearly do.



Amen to that.

However....



Badger Kitten said:


> And you ARE a Truther - or a conspiracy theorist, if you prefer; you said 9/11 was a conspiracy and the official account a fabrication and they made it happen on purpose using 'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'.



I appreciate that you were saying this, with frustration towards Fela, however: 
- "you said 9/11 was a conspiracy" - Whichever way you look at it; even accepting the 'official' account, it was a conspiracy by definition. 
- "the official account a fabrication" - not necessarily a complete fabrication, but containing holes that coaches could be driven through.
- "they made it happen on purpose". I think it unlikely. It's not out of the question, yet on the other hand there are plenty of islamist nutcases out there willing to do these things. And it suited the U.S. Gov's agenda for such an event to take place.  However 'Let it happen' is plausible enough given the evidence -  multiple "failures" in intelligence, air defence etc etc. 
- "'OBL' who was a 'CIA operative'" - Who the fuck knows. It's not as if there hasn't been a very close connection between the US intelligence services and Pakistani ISI for decades (who have been found to pass on money given to them by the U.S. to islamist groups). And there are historical links between the CIA and Mujahudeen that deserve attention and questioning.

So in questioning all of these things on perfectly reasonable grounds, do I also fit your criteria of "Truther"; to be erroneously written off for asking rational questions on topics that you regard as off limits? (Not to mention the implication - which admittedly a couple of people on this thread have specifically sought to avoid - that it also makes me a "fellow traveller" of Kollerstrom and his ilk).


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

fishfinger said:


> Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm



Must be that there was no reason whatsoever to doubt but still... very surprizing that they reacted that quickly.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> Dunno - I'm not sure why the label "witch-hunt" is getting slapped around so liberally on this thread either, as if it applied to a "holocaust denier-hunt."
> 
> As far as I understand it, the meaning of the term, whether in Salem or in Hollywood during Mccarthyism, applies to 'witches' being hunted down and falsely accused during a time of hysteria, whereas Kollenstrom is pretty much hovering on a broomstick with a black cat on his shoulder saying "Yes, I am a witch."



I guess I coined the term 'witch finder general' on the thread, but I was thinking of the film tbh. And I was specifically referring to my own view of the treatment of Jazzz, well let's be clear about whether he's a holocaust denier or just a 'useful idiot' but then let's leave it at that, it ain't that important tbh.

I'm wondering whether fela saw Jazzz getting pulled up and got annoyed about that, without actually seeing how the discussion developed from there tbh. That would make sense. And then it did all get a bit fast moving, so he could have missed a few explanatory posts. I dunno.


----------



## ymu (Apr 21, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> How does that matter to you? He used his academic title (obtained in a non-related field) as a means to pose as an authority in WWI history with the sole aim to underscore and administer credibility to his historical revisionism.
> 
> There is nothing valid on or about historical revisionism. On the issue of the Holocaust such is illegal in several countries.
> 
> ...


Agree. It's the attempt to associate his "academic credentials" (whatever they might be) with his theories to make then seem more credible. He's a scientist not a historian - but his arguments seem to focus on the chemistry of Auschwitz, so it could lend spurious credibility to the claims.

The "science" of Leuchter, and later Rodolf/Scheerer/Gauss was utter bollocks. They chose to compare the amount of residual cyanide in the structures identified by witnesses as gas chambers with the amount in those identified as defumigation facilities.

Now, this is a bad choice to start with because Zyklon was used in both. Surely a better control choice would be the living quarters where no cyanide was alleged to have been used?

But much much more importantly, it takes more cyanide to kill insects than it does humans. Zyklon-B killed humans in less than an hour, but to get rid of lice they needed Zyklon-D or -E, stronger preparations designed to get rid of cold-blooded insects that are much more resistant to cell damage than humans. 

In addition, the homicidal gas chambers were ventilated after an hour or so whereas the fumigation chambers had to be left for around 20 hours according to the manufacturers instructions.

IIRC Leuchter recorded his illegal sample gathering and one commentator - Pressac - noted that he appeared to be avoiding areas where residues would be most likely to collect, but gave him the benefit of the doubt given that he had to collect them covertly.

The tests have been repeated, using samples collected from both types of gas chamber and the living quarters. Both types of gas chamber have similar excessive cyanide residues, both far higher than those in the living quarters. Cyanide has also been found in the collections of hair, spectacles and other items taken from the bodies.

Even Rudolf - the only one of the bunch who is actually a competent chemist if a piss poor scientist - now admits that the chemistry alone is not enough to prove or disprove anything about what happened (probably because he realises that the chemistry corroborates the eye-witness accounts). Kollerstrom cannot possibly have applied any scientific critique to the totality of the evidence or he would be presenting more sophisticated arguments - as other deniers have attempted to do in the face of obvious defeat. 

He's simply stumbled on some "evidence" that suits his worldview and, if he's even bothered to check up on it, is incapable of critiquing it honestly. Whether this is due to a psychological problem or deliberate manipulation is hard to say, but it's not relevant. The work is so shoddy you'd expect him to face disciplinary proceedings for associating it with his university regardless of the subject matter.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Darios said:


> OK, I respected FMs request and remained out of the thread as my discussion with VP on 'conspiracy' was taking it off topic. It's now spent a few pages touching on the issue I was originally concerned with again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I guess it depends on the facts you choose to accept. I dont believe any Jews were conspiring in terror attacks on NYC or London.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Well done BK, I think UCL owe you one as well, for bringing this to their attention.
> 
> Swift work!
> 
> Newsworthy item too methinks!



I've actually tried to STOP it going in the papers, because I felt sorry for UCL and think they needed time to sort it out - they are blameless. And I don;t think the Truthers should get publicity, or a martyr.

A storm on the internet where these these people derive their comport, support and recruit their fellow travellers, fine. But I didn't think it was fair to drag UCL into it before they had a chance to act.

Which they have done, amazingly promptly. If it does get in the papers, I hope it's good publicity for  UCL for acting so fast.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> I guess I coined the term 'witch finder general' on the thread, but I was thinking of the film tbh. And I was specifically referring to my own view of the treatment of Jazzz, well let's be clear about whether he's a holocaust denier or just a 'useful idiot' but then let's leave it at that, it ain't that important tbh.
> 
> I'm wondering whether fela saw Jazzz getting pulled up and got annoyed about that, without actually seeing how the discussion developed from there tbh. That would make sense. And then it did all get a bit fast moving, so he could have missed a few explanatory posts. I dunno.



I guess at least any misunderstanding about what "freedom of speech" menas will have been cleared up now that Kollenstrom is apparently free to pursue Holocaust-denial full-time rather than being burdened with his affiliation with UCL.


----------



## Darios (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> I guess it depends on the facts you choose to accept. I dont believe any Jews were conspiring in terror attacks on NYC or London.



Neither do I PK. My very deep concern however is that on these issues, and many others like them, any hope of real investigation is scotched between a rock and a hard place. The rock is all the fucktards shouting "jews/lizards/holograms did it" on the one side, the hard place is all the people immediately associating questioning and the positing of _some kind_ of conspiracy at work with the latter "conspiraloonery". 

There's simply nowhere for someone sincerely interested in getting to the truth of the matter (or as close, or approximate to the truth as possible) to go.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> I guess at least any misunderstanding about what "freedom of speech" menas will have been cleared up now that Kollenstrom is apparently free to pursue Holocaust-denial full-time rather than being burdened with his affiliation with UCL.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> I don't think it's fair to lump fela fan in with the "Truthers" here - he believes, from what I can tell, in some collusion happening at the highest level rather than the 'remote-controlled planes hit the WTC-controlled demolition felled the towers-that was a missile hitting the Pentagon-those were computer-generated voices calling their families' theories.



Nope


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> What is it with loons and the colour purple?




I guess in Whoopi Goldberg's struggle against poverty, racism, and sexism, they must see a parallel with their own struggles against the CIA, the Zionist-controlled media, and the Freemasons...


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

Darios said:


> There's simply nowhere for someone sincerely interested in getting to the truth of the matter (or as close, or approximate to the truth as possible) to go.



Yes there is but like with all things it shall take time before historians are able to research. The problem is that some people are too impatient and some among that group translate this into creating conspiracy theories that only cause further delay of serious process.

salaam.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I've actually tried to STOP it going in the papers, because I felt sorry for UCL and think they needed time to sort it out - they are blameless. And I don;t think the Truthers should get publicity, or a martyr.
> 
> A storm on the internet where these these people derive their comport, support and recruit their fellow travellers, fine. But I didn't think it was fair to drag UCL into it before they had a chance to act.
> 
> Which they have done, amazingly promptly. If it does get in the papers, I hope it's good publicity for  UCL for acting so fast.



I hope it doesn't get into the papers at all. Short term 'useful idiot' rocket martyr. 

Interesting to watch this unravel though.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> I guess at least any misunderstanding about what "freedom of speech" menas will have been cleared up now that Kollenstrom is apparently free to pursue Holocaust-denial full-time rather than being burdened with his affiliation with UCL.




How's that then. Can you make your point more explicit?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> I hope it doesn't get into the papers at all. Short term 'useful idiot' rocket martyr.
> 
> Interesting to watch this unravel though.



I hope it does. Let's see if the martyers stand up to scrutiny. 

It'll be a weekend piece - my two weeks with the loons. 10 grand please.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> What is it with loons and the colour purple?



"Imperial Purple" gnosticism, rosicrucianism, alchemeic stuff, all that mystic stuff. 

http://www.sacred-texts.com/sro/rrm/rrm24.htm


----------



## Darios (Apr 21, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> Yes there is but like with all things it shall take time before historians are able to research. The problem is that some people are too impatient and some among that group translate this into creating conspiracy theories that only cause further delay of serious process.
> 
> salaam.



That's true Aldebaran. However, there's also the converse situation, where the historians finally tie it all up 50 years later when all the classified/restricted documents are eventually released. By which time no one really cares, the damage is done and the people responsible can't be held to account because they're dead.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> I hope it does. Let's see if the martyers stand up to scrutiny.
> 
> It'll be a weekend piece - my two weeks with the loons. 10 grand please.



There is that as well. But there's the lending credence plus giving them a martyr aspect.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> There is that as well. But there's the lending credence plus giving them a martyr aspect.



No one gives a fuck though, a little bit of sheen that's then blow away -they're the losers.Only freaks are even interested in this area. And there's no way they'd come out on top of public exposure. All they'd walk away with is another conspiracy against them when they look stupid. So shine that light i say.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

Darios said:


> That's true Aldebaran. However, there's also the converse situation, where the historians finally tie it all up 50 years later when all the classified/restricted documents are eventually released. By which time no one really cares, the damage is done and the people responsible can't be held to account because they're dead.



Rest assured that historians undertaking such research do care. 

salaam.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> How's that then. Can you make your point more explicit?



If Kollerstrom has indeed been sacked by UCL, he's still as free to put forward his thoughts about the Holocaust on the Internet as he was last week, so I think it's wrong to label the targeting of his association with UCL as 'stifling free speech,' as has been done earlier on this thread.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> No one gives a fuck though, a little bit of sheen that's then blow away -they're the losers.Only freaks are even interested in this area. And there's no way they'd come out on top of public exposure. All they'd walk away with is another conspiracy against them when they look stupid. So shine that light i say.



Fair enough. I don't feel that strongly about it either way tbh. I'm more concerned with the insidious spread of this shit including the linking in with the psychedelic kids and cults such as the scientologists.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> If Kollerstrom has indeed been sacked by UCL, he's still as free to put forward his thoughts about the Holocaust on the Internet as he was last week, so I think it's wrong to label the targeting of his association with UCL as 'stifling free speech,' as has been done earlier on this thread.



Thank you.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Fair enough. I don't feel that strongly about it either way tbh. I'm more concerned with the insidious spread of this shit including the linking in with the psychedelic kids and cults such as the scientologists.



The *psychedelic kids*?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

theres been more than one rainbow hippy type who has swallowed this conspiracy shit


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> The *psychedelic kids*?



Yeah, see Dillinger4's and my concern re them swallowing a whole load of mysticism stuff, but in this era, not 'peace & love maaaan' but 'don't care, nothing matters, you can't prove anything, nothing ever happened' (incl Holocaust). The phenomena's been noted elsewhere, not just here.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> Dunno - I'm not sure why the label "witch-hunt" is getting slapped around so liberally on this thread either, as if it applied to a "holocaust denier-hunt."
> 
> As far as I understand it, the meaning of the term, whether in Salem or in Hollywood during Mccarthyism, applies to 'witches' being hunted down and falsely accused during a time of hysteria, whereas Kollenstrom is pretty much hovering on a broomstick with a black cat on his shoulder saying "Yes, I am a witch."




This is my favourite quote on the thread


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Oh, the idiots. They're nothing and mean nothing. Human dust. Don't worry about them.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 21, 2008)

I almost feel like infiltrating in the Kollerstrom Movement. Must be good for some great entertainment, letting him believe in my "natural" support for his nonsense first (me being Arab/ME & historian, he must rejoice on forehand) and start asking some annoying questions and injecting evidence problems next. 


salaam.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Yeah, see Dillinger4's and my concern re them swallowing a whole load of mysticism stuff, but in this era, not 'peace & love maaaan' but 'don't care, nothing matters, you can't prove anything, nothing ever happened' (incl Holocaust). The phenomena's been noted elsewhere, not just here.



High levels of paranoia and distrust and internet-fed fatalism that nobody can do anything because it's all a Zionist NWO conspiracy are dangerous for a functioning democracy.
That's why I care.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh, the idiots. They're nothing and mean nothing. Human dust. Don't worry about them.



Useful idiots spreading the word. 

Sorry, don't agree.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Functioning democracy - ha ha. I'd like to destory any functioning democracy. I care for different reasons.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Useful idiots spreading the word.
> 
> Sorry, don't agree.



To who? 60 and 7 years after. No one cares but them. They don't and can't _recruit_ anyone. It the same 0.0000000001% it always has been. The word doesn't spread becaue people aren't idiots.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> High levels of paranoia and distrust and internet-fed fatalism that nobody can do anything because it's all a Zionist NWO conspiracy are dangerous for a functioning democracy.
> That's why I care.



I'm not interested in this functioning democracy lark, cos it clearly doesn't. My interest isn't about that.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

Intelligent people who care about activism and politics seem to be spending hours online discussing stupid conspiracy theories instead. It's sucking the energy out of activism. It's sad.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> To who? 60 and 7 years after. No one cares but them. They don't and can't _recruit_ anyone. It the same 0.0000000001% it always has been. The word doesn't spread becaue people aren't idiots.



If some people weren't idiots, the Holocaust(s) would never have happened in the first place. Also, if it didn't matter, we wouldn't be concerned re this Holocaust Denial now. But you know all this.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Oh, the idiots. They're nothing and mean nothing. Human dust. Don't worry about them.



slightly off-topic but there was an almost certain attempt by fascists to infiltrate the london trance scene about 6/7 years ago

i cant go into too many details but i personally followed one skinhead round a trance party (wearing shiny brand new psychedelic t-shirt) whilst he went up to all the pilled up psy-trance kids taking names and addresses and talking to them about a place where they could be free, that was just for us etc etc

they disappeared off the scene as quickly as they turned up  after a botched attempt to put on an event in london (that no-one turned up to)


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Intelligent people who care about activism and politics seem to be spending hours online discussing stupid conspiracy theories instead. It's sucking the energy out of activism. It's sad.



I suppose a lot depends on where you think opinions are formed really.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> If some people weren't idiots, the Holocaust(s) would never have happened in the first place. Also, if it didn't matter, we wouldn't be concerned re this Holocaust Denial now. But you know all this.



There's idiots and there's idiots.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> I suppose a lot depends on where you think opinions are formed really.



Why are conspiracy theories so prevalent? Why are some people so keen to gulp them down that they don't even bother to check who their fellow travellers are?

I admit I am prejudiced against them because I tend to come into contact with the most vocal minority, at their most vocal. But time and again you see people like Jazz, who seems a nice enough man, regurgitate stuff that turns out to be a click away from some of the really nasty far-right paranoid hateful Jews are behind everything  nonsense. Time and again this gets pointed out.

Opinions are formed by surfing sites on the internet ( for large numbers of people), and there are such a prevalence of CT sites out there. Why do CT-ers seem so uncritical of so much of the material they read? Even when it is shown that some of their number are facists and using current CTs about recent events almost as cover to get people interested in their stuff   ( or so it appears), still the same old nonsense gets spread around, and as fast as it is debunked, the debunking is ignored and the questions race on.

It's bloody depressing.


----------



## snadge (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout said:


> slightly off-topic but there was an almost certain attempt by fascists to infiltrate the london trance scene about 6/7 years ago
> 
> i cant go into too many details but i personally followed one skinhead round a trance party (wearing shiny brand new psychedelic t-shirt) whilst he went up to all the pilled up psy-trance kids taking names and addresses and talking to them about a place where they could be free, that was just for us etc etc
> 
> they disappeared off the scene as quickly as they turned up  after a botched attempt to put on an event in london (that no-one turned up to)



I had a few dealings with this type as well, up North as well as London, usually at the more physcadelic end of the scene, they used to get fucked right off at the techno nights, we were all punks there.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> This whole thread seems to be about you and your reactions to this man and his opinions, and the fact that you don't like them.



You are the exception, fela, as you always are.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Why are conspiracy theories so prevalent? Why are some people so keen to gulp them down that they don't even bother to check who their fellow travellers are?
> 
> I admit I am prejudiced against them because I tend to come into contact with the most vocal minority, at their most vocal. But time and again you see people like Jazz, who seems a nice enough man, regurgitate stuff that turns out to be a click away from some of the really nasty far-right paranoid hateful Jews are behind everything  nonsense. Time and again this gets pointed out.
> 
> ...



Conspiracy theories have always been prevalent. The only thing that's changed has been communication techniques. It's no longer rounding up all your mates and having an evening in t'pub having a chat about the latest conspiracy. The Internet is a great medium for comparing notes, upping the ante, spreading the word etc.

It was always so, but now there's a platform.

It's not new. The Illuminati Trilogy. Holy Blood and Holy Grail. Erik Von Daniken. Sacred Mushroom And The Cross (hello, psychedelics, not new). It's a constant theme, with a constant theme of who is to blame for the failings of the world.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> He's clearly deluded.



More so than you?


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Do you have anything to say about what we're discussing, Lock&Light?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> My point is much more about objectivity than subjective shit. The ideas about the holocaust not having happened are patently absurd. So i just wonder why folk get so upset about patently ridiculous ideas?



Because for some folk, it's personal. Some of us, even non-Jews like myself, had members of family we never got to meet because of this Holohoax that didn't happen. We had other relatives who, though they survived incarceration for their political opinions, nevertheless lived out the remainder of their days as shells of their former selves, post-traumatic basket cases with sunken eyes and numbers tattooed to their forearms. 

So yes, it's emotive for us; and rightly so. That's our motivation for seeking out the objective truth-- honouring those people by seeing to it that liars are exposed as liars and given no more venues to spout their horseshit than absolutely necessary.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> No pk, i totally accept the disgraceful stain on humanity that hitler caused.



Hitler only caused a stain on his own humanity. 

It was 'humanity', or at least a selection of that fickle and irresponsible category known as 'humanity', that gave the madman his authority.


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 21, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I don't really know much about 7/7, but i instinctively feel that 911 was brought about by elites within the american establishment.



_'elites'_ with a _'historic involvement in international finance'_ perchance?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Why are conspiracy theories so prevalent? Why are some people so keen to gulp them down that they don't even bother to check who their fellow travellers are?



people do really grim things to each other and the world is not a v pleasant place for most of the occupants

this can lead quite nice if slightly naive folk like jazz to look for a reason for that, its just too hard to accept that people behave like this to one another so it has to be either aliens doing it, or at least a group that is as alien to us and our everyday lives as possible eg freemasons, jews, muslims

secondly human beings are cursed by being self-aware intelligent animals but we also appear to be fairly unimportant biological robots

science is a long way from providing all the answers (if it ever well) and there can be an unbearable emptiness when people realise that we are alone on this rock (or if not no-one out there seems to give a shit about us) and our lives are ultimately meaningless

perhaps if there is some grand conspiracy there is meaning after all

perhaps if theres evil reptiles then theres good aliens that will explain it to us and save us

perhaps, just perhaps, we wont die

its also a cop out, notice how icke et al are viciously critical of the left, activism and anyone trying to change the human experience for the better

fuck that, read a few dodgy books and write about it on internet forums, bit like fair trade coffee, the ultimate liberal guilt assuaging tool

and then theres the fact that conspiracies do happen, mk ultra was real, the cia have been caught drug running, who knows what else there is out there that we dont know

which has a degree of validity except mkultra and cia drug running were exposed by hard nosed bastards digging up facts not mere speculation

cters cant distinguish between the two especially as they have developed a mind set which has led them to believe that anything which refutes their argument is put out by the very people who are committing the atrocities

and the leaders of the movement like icke are making a tidy little nest egg encouraging people to continue in this direction

thats what i think anyway

(and im a bit drunk and havent reread it so apologies if its bollocks)


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

Louis MacNeice said:


> If I were you I'd stop digging, step out of the hole and just walk away.



Fela had never proved capable of anything so sensible.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

fela, I really hope you don't respond to this stuff from Lock&Light. It's punctuating an interesting conversation with shite.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout, I agree with a lot of what you're saying there. I'd also add into the mix that some of the reasons you outlined are why organised religion still has such power.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> smokedout, I agree with a lot of what you're saying there. I'd also add into the mix that some of the reasons you outlined are why organised religion still has such power.



i dont think theres much to choose between the two tbh


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Aye, there'll be plenty of opinions.

But if this NK guy tonight feels any kind of remorse or sorrow, it'll still be nothing compared to the misery echoed down as a result of the events he claimed never happened.

How will he explain this to his son?

How did the holocaust victims explain what happened to their families?

No pity for NK.


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout said:


> i dont think theres much to choose between the two tbh



True. Religion/s, mysticism etc coming in from one side, and fascism from the other. What a heady combination that forms


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> Do you have anything to say about what we're discussing, Lock&Light?



I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen.  It'll take some time, I know.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> True. Religion/s, mysticism etc coming in from one side, and fascism from the other. What a heady combination that forms



just to add that in the US at least the cters are dominated by the christian right - pat robertson, fritz springmeiyer and william still to name a few

eta that also its no surprise that the worlds only conference on holocaust denial was held by extremist muslims in iran


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout said:


> just to add that in the US at least the cters are dominated by the christian right - pat robertson, fritz springmeiyer and william still to name a few



The fash are playing up to this 'Christian values' thing over here now an all


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Lock&Light said:


> I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen.  It'll take some time, I know.



Dont be daft.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Lock&Light said:


> I'm waiting for you to settle down and listen.  It'll take some time, I know.



Dont be daft. Cesare did good.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

cesare said:


> There is that as well. But there's the lending credence plus giving them a martyr aspect.



I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr. 

For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high. 

No person familiar with the history of the Holocaust suddenly sat up in bed after reading of his travails and said, "by Christ, he's right-- it's all a Jewish plot, and Irving's Austrian imprisonment proves it!" Sensible people don't think that way.

To the average reader, even one only generally informed about the history of the Holocaust, such noteriety is written off as "another defamer of the dead who got his due. What's on the tube tonight?"

At least I'd hope that would be the case.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> Dont be daft. Cesare did good.



I don't object to that. Just his assumption that a short comment has less validity than a long drawn out testament.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr.
> 
> For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.



but then irving did deny being a holocaust denier when the shit hit the fan


----------



## cesare (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I don't subscribe to the notion that when a denier gets publicity for having been casitgated, fired or imprisoned they suddenly become a martyr.
> 
> For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.
> 
> ...



Well as I said to Butchers, I'm not that attached to whether or not NK gets publicity.

But in terms of this:



> For whom is David Irving a "martyr"? Only his fellow Jew-haters, people who've already bought his bill of goods, that's who. And even among that crew there are grudging dissenters-- people who say he caved by saying "yes, there were some gassings", people who say his estimates of Jews murdered are far too high.



... there's a lot of 'Jew-haters' around. BK linked to another blog earlier re NK, but there's also an interesting piece on anti-semiticism which you can find in the right hand navigation.


----------



## snadge (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout said:


> eta that also its no surprise that the worlds only conference on holocaust denial was held by extremist muslims in iran



I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

smokedout said:


> but then irving did deny being a holocaust denier when the shit hit the fan



Just another example of his cowardice, if you're talking about his _mea culpa_ in Austria. 

A far better example, of course, would be his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000-- endevouring to stifle the freedom of speech of an academic under a judicial system that heavily favours the complaining litigant, and losing.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ttVnXte_wwQ 



(((((nazis)))))


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Just another example of his cowardice, if you're talking about his _mea culpa_ in Austria.
> 
> A far better example, of course, would be his libel suit against Deborah Lipstadt in 2000-- endevouring to stifle the freedom of speech of an academic under a judicial system that heavily favours the complaining litigant, and losing.



With supporting testimony from the Rudolf mentioned in NK's posts.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

pk said:


> But if this NK guy tonight feels any kind of remorse or sorrow, it'll still be nothing compared to the misery echoed down as a result of the events he claimed never happened.



Quoted for truth.



> How will he explain this to his son?



Kollerstrom's post on the Birdman site:




			
				Crypto-nazi Wankstain said:
			
		

> According to my teenager's homework, it seems to be Holocaust week at school again, so all the non-Jewish kids will be learning the Jewish version of it.



No, they'll be learning the history of the Holocaust as interpreted by normative historians. That "Jews" tend to concur with their account is no indication of influence or collusion, since virtually all educated people also concur, and calling it "the Jewish version of it" does nothing to undermine the veracity of the normative interpretation.




			
				Wankstain again said:
			
		

> What do you do when a public institution teaches something is a fact that you believe is not a fact? Well, you can always call the teacher or write a letter, which will have no effect other than to get you a reputation as a dangerous nut.



In this instance that reputation would be enitely justified.




			
				Wankstain said:
			
		

> No school will change its policy on this because of any information you cite to them; even if they secretly agree with you, they do not have the courage.



Apparently, thousands of historians of the WWII era are similarly uncourageous. This begs the question: why would an academic, with the entire history of mankind at their disposal for choosing an area of specialty, willingly choose to specialise in a period of history that's overseen by the guardians of a massive hoax? 

Almost no educated people "secretly agree" with the fantasies of deniers. It sounds to me like Kollerstrom's confusing a placatory respose letter from his kid's teacher with "secret agreement". Personally, I feel for his teenage kid mentioned in the post. It's one thing to have a world-class crackpot for a dad; but it's quite another having one's teachers, friends and classmates knowing it too.





			
				pk said:
			
		

> How did the holocaust victims explain what happened to their families?



Most of them didn't have the voice to explain, having been murdered and all; but those who survived, in my experience, changed the subject as quickly as possible.



> No pity for NK.



None.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 21, 2008)

snadge said:


> I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.



im not and also aware that the decision to hold the conference was almost certainly as influenced by politics as any genuine ct-ism

but thats been brought up, just like religion, ct is also used as a political mechanism and tbh if it wasnt then nk and the like's daft ideas genuinely would be of no consequence

unfortunately history tells a different story


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

> Apparently, thousands of historians of the WWII era are similarly uncourageous. This begs the question: why would an academic, with the entire history of mankind at their disposal for choosing an area of specialty, willingly choose to specialise in a period of history that's overseen by the guardians of a massive hoax?
> 
> Almost no educated people "secretly agree" with the fantasies of deniers. It sounds to me like Kollerstrom's confusing a placatory respose letter from his kid's teacher with "secret agreement". Personally, I feel for his teenage kid mentioned in the post. It's one thing to have a world-class crackpot for a dad; but it's quite another having one's teachers, friends and classmates knowing it too.



Also the teacher may have wanted to give that impression (that he "agreed") because of the things the fash are capable of doing to people who piss them off. 

Im not saying Kollerstrom falls into that category but a history teacher at his school isnt likely to know that are they, and teachers get enough shit from abusive parents as it is.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> With supporting testimony from the Rudolf mentioned in NK's posts.




If Kollerstrom claims that he's a bigger fool than I thought. IIRC, at the time of the libel action, Rudolf was in hiding, in effort to avoid extradition to Germany for defamation and incitement violations. I don't think any of his work was entered as testimony.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 21, 2008)

snadge said:


> I'll mention this, there are as big a ratio of genuine people that do believe in the truth in Iran as there are in most countries on this planet, do not be fooled by the rhetoric.



Yup.  The Iranian people are more savvy than the media sometimes show.  Its easy to watch film of Govt sponsored rallies of Jew hatred and get the impression that this sort of stuff is widespread from what I've read as well.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> If Kollerstrom claims that he's a bigger fool than I thought. IIRC, at the time of the libel action, Rudolf was in hiding, in effort to avoid extradition to Germany for defamation and incitement violations. I don't think any of his work was entered as testimony.



Here


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

And actually a lot of educated people agree with holocaust denial, or at least, say they agree with it. i take issue with the idea that its only poor or uneducated people who buy into this. it isn't and that's what makes it dangerous - nick griffin had a history degree from cambridge ffs but it didn't stop him publishing a pamphlet entitled something like "did six million really die". 

but i'd say none of them who had seriously studied the issue in depth really thinks it didn't happen. how could you know about all that evidence and read so many books about the holocaust and still claim it was a lie. 

there is no evidence that gas chambers did not exist. there is no evidence to suggest that the einsatzgruppen were executing "criminals" and not innocent people as is claimed (and even if they were, would that make it right?) 

*they want it to happen again*. 

that much is clear from looking at any holocaust denial site, all of which, without exception, have grotesque anti-semitic imagery, veiled threats and even sometimes direct calls to violence. they dont believe the holocaust was a bad thing, they think it was good. and right and they want to do it again. 

so they do in a sense deny the holocaust, seeing it as a necessary and even wonderful chapter in history, a brave fight agaisnt the forces of international jewery, rather than the mass production of murder which it clearly was.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Nice one YI Otter, posting from a PDA right now so keeping it brief, thanks for adding clarification.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2008)

fishfinger said:


> Oh dear, it looks like Kollerstrom has vanished from UCL http://www.ucl.ac.uk/sts/staff.htm






> *4thwrite*: If he's on short term project-by-project contracts, they may just fail to re-employ him and his name will disappear off the web site.



At least i've got one thing right on this thread


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 21, 2008)

As I already said, that twat Kollerstrom turned up on my blog and said that the book by Rudolf was 'the modern work' on the holocaust. 

He can claim not to be a Nazi all he likes, but all his sources are Nazis and far-right racist bullies.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

http://mabister.tripod.com/index.html
http://www.geocities.com/~Patrin/holcaust.htm
www.jasenovac.org
www.pavelic-papers.com
http://www.petertatchell.net/history/survivors.htm
http://jehovah.to/gen/holocaust/index.htm

"never again" - doesn't just mean "never to jews again." 

as a jew it's ironic for me that the one member of my family who was killed by the fash wasn't even jewish. he wasn't into any kind of violence, he was just a christian who believed strongly in his faith enough to believe that hitler was killing germany and that it was against god and anything that he believed in.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> As I already said, that twat Kollerstrom turned up on my blog and said that the book by Rudolf was 'the modern work' on the holocaust.
> 
> He can claim not to be a Nazi all he likes, but all his sources are Nazis and far-right racist bullies.



Pwned Cunt, for short.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2008)

*Beyond satire... he's a Swappie!*



> Kollerstrom’s outing as a Holocaust denier naturally raises questions about his political views and the extent to which they may or not indicate any personal connections to the far right, w*hich he denies by citing his ‘political’ background as including membership of the Green Party, CND and RESPECT *and, in truth, digging around in several of the usual far right online cesspits has turned up no trace of Kollerstrom or his online alias, ‘astro3′ as an active poster. That said, whatever he may believe about his own political views, his views of the Holocaust are extensively predicated on the writings of authors who are known apologists for the Nazi regime, like Irving and Zundel, and if he personally avoids the charge of fascism for lack of evidence, then the same cannot be said in regards to a charge of anti-Semitism as his response to his outing on the main ‘Truthers’ forum indicates:





From:
http://www.liberalconspiracy.org/2008/04/21/sieg-heil-de-heil/


----------



## 8den (Apr 21, 2008)

I'll say through gritted teeth that caesare has a point about the medium. Conspiracy theories about JFK or the illuminati were bountiful and even gained mainstream awareness, thanks to primitive fanzines etc. 9/11 theories gained a much more mainstream appeal through "documentaries" spread via google video, and youtube (lets pause think of the irony of a documentary exposing the media and government's complicity in 911 coming across on one of the largest media organisations in the world, is a piece of base irony we can enjoy). 

The fact is the 911 and the internet gave conspiracy theorists a format that they could present their arguments, (thanks to cheap video editing software, and streaming sites) easily, in a manner that is compelling to many people who didn't or don't often didn't understand the rigours and checks that go into honest documentary filmmaking.


----------



## pk (Apr 21, 2008)

8den said:


> I'll say through gritted teeth that caesare has a point about the medium. Conspiracy theories about JFK or the illuminati were bountiful and even gained mainstream awareness, thanks to primitive fanzines etc. 9/11 theories gained a much more mainstream appeal through "documentaries" spread via google video, and youtube (lets pause think of the irony of a documentary exposing the media and government's complicity in 911 coming across on one of the largest media organisations in the world, is a piece of base irony we can enjoy).
> 
> The fact is the 911 and the internet gave conspiracy theorists a format that they could present their arguments, (thanks to cheap video editing software, and streaming sites) easily, in a manner that is compelling to many people who didn't or don't often didn't understand the rigours and checks that go into honest documentary filmmaking.



True.
Beauty of internet... Instant results.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2008)

Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure.  Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site.  Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears.  They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 21, 2008)

Downplaying the Porrajmos - the trend to minimise the Romani Holocaust




			
				Ian Hancock said:
			
		

> Disqualifying Romanies as victims of genocide is Lewy’s major criterion for also excluding them from the Holocaust itself, for denying, in fact,  that there was a Romani Holocaust.  The battle over ownership of that word is a latter-day phenomenon, yet it has been a part of the English language for centuries, according to the Oxford English Dictionary first appearing in print around 1250 AD.  Its use in a purely religious context dates from 1833, in a book by Leitch Ritchie, in which is described the fate of over a thousand people in 18th century France who were locked inside a church and burned to death at the order of King Louis VII: “Louis VII . . . once made a holocaust of thirteen hundred persons in a church  (p. 104).”  It has led to a distinction being made between Upper-Case Holocaust and lower-case holocaust, or to the abandonment of the term altogether for Shoah.  This at least is specific to the fate of Jews, as Porrajmos (“paw-rye-mawss”) is to the fate of the Romani people.
> 
> A widespread interpretation of its meaning is found at “Holocaust” on the Anti-Defamation League’s website, where it states:
> 
> ...



They're only trying to get the truth out. 

Bear in mind btw that these aren't typical fash, but mainstream Jewish holocaust scholars - some of them work for the ADL  

Hancock goes on to state: 



> Accepting uncritically the opinions of prejudiced non-Romani authors and presenting their statements as fact, and repeating undefended racist venom while calling it merely “intemperate,” suggests that to Lewy such statements are not questionable, and that we are not real people at all, but simply subjects in books written by other non-Romanies. We are not real people with real sensitivities and real aspirations in the real world, and we were not real people in the Holocaust.  All in all, in his opening chapter Lewy seems to take delight in documenting the “nasty” aspects of Romanies; he doesn’t seem to like us very much at all. In a *blame-the-victim statement (p. ll) he says “prejudice alone, I submit, is not sufficient explanation for the hostility directed at the Gypsies . . . certain characteristics of Gypsy life tend to reinforce or even create hostility.”. * He even puts himself in charge of what we should be called, maintaining that “in fact there is nothing pejorative, per se, about the word ‘Zigeuner’” (p. ix). One suggestion I did make before returning the original manuscript to OUP was that the author remove the word “mysterious” in his description of us from his text.
> 
> There are dozens of examples of this kind of insensitivity here and in Lewy’s other writings.  *He repeats for example Yehuda Bauer’s viciously insulting statement that my people were nothing more than a “minor irritant” as far as the Nazis were concerned. Minor irritants are not called Zigeunerplage or Zigeunerbedrohung or Zigeunergeschmeiss as the Nazis referred to us (“Gypsy plague,” “Gypsy menace,” “Gypsy scum”).  The Bureau of Gypsy Affairs was not moved from Munich to Hitler’s capital in Berlin in 1936 simply so that the Nazis could keep a close eye on a “minor irritant.”  In a paper presented at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum’s symposium on the Romani Holocaust in September, 2000, he stated that “Gypsies were fortunate in not being the chosen victims of the Holocaust,” heedless of the gross insensitivity evident in using a word such as “fortunate” in the context of the Holocaust. *
> 
> ...




Never forget.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 21, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Here


.

Ach, yes. The appeal fiasco. In the sense that Irving did initially profer Rudolf as an authority, yes it was technically entered as evidence. But wiser heads obviously prevailed and it was withdrawn. I can well imagine the conversation between Irving and his attorney:

"I'm sorry Mr. Irving, but the Rudolf report is rife with credibility issues the court is bound to raise. It isn't helpful in the slightest."

"Bugger! Alright then, pull it. But I don't have to like it!"

End of.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

Shirley Miller said:
			
		

> The new bride in this old ballad runs off with some Gypsies and refuses to return to her husband when he finds her in the Gypsy camp.  She left to be free from her stuffy new husband and the trials of running a household and staff.  In doing so, she also left her  comfortable life--silk dresses, a fine home, money, servants--left it all to live the carefree Gypsy life.  No doubt she could picture the Gypsies dancing around the campfire, their golden earrings flashing in the firelight, the Gypsy violins urging the dancers on--a romantic life.  A life more exciting than hers, she must have thought.
> 
> However, would she have chosen the Gypsy life had she known that such a life held hardship and persecution that reached a new high under Hitler?  The Gypsies unknowingly traveled a road that led to Porrajmos, the Gypsy Holocaust.  The human tragedy of Porrajmos (a Romani word meaning "the Devouring") is slowly reaching the public eye.
> 
> ...


.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

shirley hancock said:
			
		

> The "Final Solution" to the "Gypsy Question" began with Heinrich Himmler's Auschwitz decree of December 16, 1942.  All Gypsies in Germany and the Nazi-controlled European territories were to be deported to Auschwitz for extermination.  Once there, they were housed in a special Gypsy Family Camp, where they were kept in family units.  Why this was done is not certain.  Perhaps, because "medical research" was to be performed on both adults and children, it was easier to house them together, or maybe, as the Rom are very family oriented, they were easier to manage when kept together.
> 
> At Auschwitz, Gypsy prisoners wore a "Z" for Zigeuner (Gypsy) tattooed on their left arm and a black triangle, for "asocial," was sewn into their clothes.  The Nazis entered them into the Gypsy register with simply a "Z" after their names as just being a Gypsy was reason enough for them to have been arrested.  At the hands of the SS (Schutzstaffel, or defense squadron) , the Roma faced "scientific" and "medical" experiments in addition to death in the gas chambers.
> 
> ...


.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Never forget.



Indeed. Another thing never to forget (at the risk of causing major thread drift), is that it was Hitler who began the tradition of carrying the Olympic torch through a raft of participating countries by host athletes as a propaganda gesture.

Le plus ça change... nu?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2008)

Important discussions going on on this thread, but forgive me another moment of malicious glee.  SWP members may wish to avert their eyes:

http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8871


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Never forget.



What I'll never forget-- nor anyone who had my parents and grandparents as forebears-- is that the Nazis were in the business of rounding up and imprisoning Social Democratic activists years before they got around to the Jews and Roma.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

The Pavelic Papers said:
			
		

> ACCORDING TO PARTISANS of the movement today, the Croatian Ustase (alternately, to an English audience, Ustasha, Ustashe or Ustashi from ustanak for "uprising") trace their ideological lineage back to the Croatian Party of Right, a 19th century political construct in the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The Party of Right was formed by Ante Starcevic, an early devotee of what later became known as the Yugoslavist movement, which favoured the union of the Southern Slavs into a common state to stave off German, Turkish, and Italian imperialism in the Balkans.
> 
> Founded after his defection to extreme, chauvinistic nationalism, Starcevic's Party of Right defined itself chiefly by what it opposed: the dominance of the Austrian bureaucracy as well as the Hungarian gentry of the Hapsburg state; the Yugoslavist idea promoted in the Croatian lands by Bishop Josip Strossmayer; *and, most of all, the Serbian nation, including the thousands of Serbs who had settled at the Emperor's invitation along the Empire's southwestern flank, forming a military bulwark against Turkish expansion. Starcevic postulated that the Croats, unlike the "slave-Serbs," *were a lost tribe of Goths who had somehow fallen into a Slavic language, customs and identity.
> 
> ...


.


----------



## MikeMcc (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Important discussions going on on this thread, but forgive me another moment of malicious glee. SWP members may wish to avert their eyes:
> 
> http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8871


Further proof that he can't count, The UK hasn't suffered >1000 military fatalities in Iraq or Afghanistan.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

the Pavelic Papers said:
			
		

> *The final count of victims of the Ustase (not just within concentration camps such as Jasenovac, but also from massacres throughout the country) will probably never be known. The United States Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington, DC estimates between 330,000 and 390,000 Serbian victims across the NDH. The Simon Wiesenthal Center has estimated that at least 30,000 Jews (75% of the pre-war population), 29,000 Roma (97%) and 500,000 Serbs - or about one-third of the pre-war population - were murdered in the four years of the Independent State of Croatia's existence. Yet there was no equivalent of Nuremburg for the Ustase. *
> 
> THE RATLINE
> Pavelic, Budak, Interior Minister Andrija Artukovic, and a horde of other Ustase ringleaders donned disguises and concealed themselves among 50,000 Croatian refugees fleeing for Austria. Pursued by the Partizans, they reached the city of Bleiburg before the British turned them back. Or some of them, for nearly all of the political leaders, and a good number of military leaders who were in the column of refugees had somehow disappeared while in British custody. The rest were sent to Yugoslav internment camps, marched until collapse, or shot by firing squads.
> ...



Tudjman didnt have a problem with these disgusting nazis and their "beliefs". He claimed that only 20 000 people died at Jasenovac and that it was insignificant compared to the crimes of the allies. Why? There is only one reason. A reason which became horrifically clear once he was in power. Guess what it is.

All holocaust deniers are "harmless, bumbling fools". Who cares if someone denies the holocaust - it just means they're ignorant, doesn't it. No, it cant possibly have anything to do with their wanting to repeat it, they're just into a few wacky theories. No. Nothing to worry about at all. Keep your mouth shut, otherwise you're as bad as them. Aren't you? 

Aren't you?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> as a jew it's ironic for me that the one member of my family who was killed by the fash wasn't even jewish. he wasn't into any kind of violence, he was just a christian who believed strongly in his faith enough to believe that hitler was killing germany and that it was against god and anything that he believed in.



Indeed. During the Hungarian expulsion, thousands of practicing Catholics and Lutherans suddenly found themselves herded into cattle cars bound for Poland as "Jews", owing to a suspect grandparent or two.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

MikeMcc said:


> Further proof that he can't count, The UK hasn't suffered >1000 military fatalities in Iraq or Afghanistan.




Of course,for the purposes of this exercise they chose a cut-off date of 1997. 

A better measure might have been to list conflicts in which the fatalities of the _other_ side exceeded 1000.


----------



## ymu (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure.  Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site.  Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears.  They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.
> 
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/


The work of paid research fellows often would not be included in the Research Assessment Exercise (below a certain level of seniority the universities can choose who submits their work for assessment), let alone honorary ones. Not even sure if honorary appointments can be included in RAE at all as this would be begging for abuse. Anything he's published during the relevant period for their RAE will almost certainly have been co-authored by others at UCL so it will count towards their RAE anyway.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> What I'll never forget-- nor anyone who had my parents and grandparents as forebears-- is that the Nazis were in the business of rounding up and imprisoning Social Democratic activists years before they got around to the Jews and Roma.



Yep with the collusion of the Weimar state!! 

Like turkeys voting for Christmas.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Yep with the collusion of the Weimar state!!
> 
> Like turkeys voting for Christmas.




Hang on the social democrats were the ones doing it - they were the ones running Prussia, and tjey were the ones who took the opp in 1933 to do it to the KPD.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

ok. im not that familiar with that side of the nazi history ...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> ok. im not that familiar with that side of the nazi history ...



That's the continuity i was on about way back on what page 3. Miles OT though


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

And some of the anti-gypsy laws were passed, as the link i posted earlier up says, in 1926 or earlier, way before the fash got into power.


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?

As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.

Catholic priests and Muslim clerics were united to smuggle such surplus humans out of Europe - not out of humane compassion, but to cover their arses... and keep the loot. All that gold, never found!

Were submarines used?
Was a clear Atlantic passage granted by the Allied forces turning a blind eye?
If so - what did the Allies gain?

Another thread perhaps... ?

Lest we forget - many of the high level Nazis ended up working for the US government... in all kinds of fields.

Might be worth persuing. Might be too deep even for Urban75.

Still, it's a more valid conspiracy theory than anything the "truthers" have invented lately mainly because it's based upon fact... plus the bonus of not being able to blame the Jews makes it more interesting...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

pk said:


> Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?
> 
> As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.
> 
> ...



yeah, the pavelic papers has plenty to say on this subject ... 

such brave people, exposing the truth about the zionist run establishment ... that there was nothing to expose, after all.


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

ymu said:


> Anything he's published during the relevant period for their RAE will almost certainly have been co-authored by others at UCL so it will count towards their RAE anyway.



His astrology/alchemy stuff is irrelevant anyway.

As long as it's clear he's a filthy nazi-apologist Jew-hating bigoted wanker with no credibility whatsoever, and his vile "holohoax" beliefs are certainly not linked to the respectable reputation of UCL, then that's good enough for now.

It's only Monday/Tuesday, after all!

Give it time until the Hebrew and Jewish faculty get wind of it - they probably know more about him than we ever will.

Bye bye facist fuckwit!


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on the social democrats were the ones doing it - they were the ones running Prussia, and tjey were the ones who took the opp in 1933 to do it to the KPD.




Yup.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Spd-poster-1932.jpg


Hmmm... can't hot-link a wiki img...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Yup.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Spd-poster-1932.jpg
> 
> ...



Tbf, it's an elction poster:


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Tbf, it's an elction poster:



Signifying what? That it's not representative of SPD thinking in 1932?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Signifying what? That it's not representative of SPD thinking in 1932?



That it's been produced top down at election time. They're not going to say vote for anyone else.


----------



## EddyBlack (Apr 22, 2008)

pk said:


> Speaking of Pavelic, whilst we're here... as an aside, maybe even a tangent - does anyone know any juicy details about the Vatican smuggling Pavelic and similar cohorts off to Chile and Argentina?
> 
> As well as Mengele, Priebke, Eichmann, Clause Barbe... Argentina was considered a "paradise" for fleeing Nazi scum in the closing months of the war.
> 
> ...



Some links on American collaboration with NAZI war criminals. 

The CIA's Worst-Kept Secret
Newly Declassified Files Confirm United States Collaboration with Nazis
http://www.commondreams.org/views01/0508-05.htm


This article claims that Alolf Eichmann was covered up by the CIA.

Documents show CIA covered up Nazi war criminals during Cold War
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-06-06-cia-nazis_x.htm


The CIA and Nazi War Criminals
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB146/index.htm

Our Nazi allies
http://archive.salon.com/news/feature/2000/05/03/nazi/print.html


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> That it's been produced top down at election time. They're not going to say vote for anyone else.



Fair enough.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Fair enough.



It's fantastic example of dynamic art though - look the at the angles and look at every anti-fascist piece they produced - the exact opposite.


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> It's fantastic example of dynamic art though - look the at the angles and look at every anti-fascist piece they produced - the exact opposite.



I prefer mine TBH... it's the cheap crassness that only Photochops can achieve.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/hist/jpetropoulos/ironguard/holocaust.htm



> Introduction to the Romania Holocaust
> 
> The tragedy of the Romanian Jewry remains one of the most neglected chapters in the history of the Holocaust.  This web page will examine the suffering Romanian Jews faced during WWII to illuminate the reasons for the tragedies that individuals went through, many not surviving.  The main reason used by Romanian officials when killing Jews was the belief that they would ally with the Soviet Union and become spies.  Thus not only did communists have to be killed, but Jews as well.  However, oppression and killing also took place for the same beliefs held by Hitler.  Jews were seen as inferior creatures that polluted society, however the latter reason played a more minor role.  In the Old Romania, in the territory without the lost provinces, Jews were hardly affected by the war.  However, the story is quite different East of the Prut River.  No country, with the exception of Germany, was involved in massacres of Jews on such a large scale.  (The Destruction of the European Jews, pg. 759)
> 
> ...


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Some links on American collaboration with NAZI war criminals.



How did they get there so quick though?

Even with Red Cross passage - papers all neatly prepared thanks to the Vatican - I'm convinced it was via submarine.

In which case Nazi sympathising Peronists with the aid of the US must have been involved, as by then the Atlantic was pretty much completely dominated by Allied naval forces.
No VIIC submarine fleets could have realistically travelled non-stop, undetected, from the normal Nazi bases - Kristiansand, St Nazaire, or even alleged secret sites in Spain and Portugal, without either being given safe passage, or being blown up.

Wow, I'm a conspiranoid!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.claremontmckenna.edu/hist/jpetropoulos/ironguard/holocaust.htm



My ex-girlfriend's family got out of Romania in 1941 - after the eleventh hour had passed in other words.

Butchers: I take it that's where the Social Democrat 3 arrows symbol comes from? I saw a webpage of the contemporary young people's socialist league in the states which used a version of it.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Enemies of the revolution, class enemies, it’s a fairly common justification throughout the history of communist regimes for all sorts of terrible crimes.
> 
> So in a good communist revolution and regime, how would these ‘enemies’ be dealt with?



I favour giving them balloons and a pat on the head.

As for your posts I'm intrigued at the way you seem to be saying 'don't watch that, watch this'.

Evil and appalling as Stalin's crimes were, they are in fact exceeded in their evil by the crimes of Hitler; it is under Hitler that genocide is industrialised to the point where it would have (had the Hitler regime not collapsed, largely under the pressure of the Red Army) been able to purge a Nazi ruled Europe of any and all 'racial inferiors'. . .


----------



## fela fan (Apr 22, 2008)

pk said:


> Why then can you not accept why NK as well as his ideas are fair game for attack?
> 
> The man is inventing and repeating facist hate propaganda and lies.
> 
> ...



I find it hard to disagree with this really.


----------



## fela fan (Apr 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> fela fan has been quite clear that he thought 911 was a CIA type thing or summat, rather than part of this (zionist = jewish) cabal running the world, tbf.
> 
> But what I don't get is the strength of feeling that goes to the point of singling BK out for some quite strong abuse on this thread for her views, to the point of wanting to censor them - whilst not reacting strongly re the holocaust denial issue and advocating that those views go unchallenged. I just don't get it



I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!


----------



## fela fan (Apr 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> I'm wondering whether fela saw Jazzz getting pulled up and got annoyed about that, without actually seeing how the discussion developed from there tbh. That would make sense. And then it did all get a bit fast moving, so he could have missed a few explanatory posts. I dunno.



Add beer into the mix and that's it in a nutshell.

Clever person!


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!



I can relate to that.


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 22, 2008)

pk said:


> How did they get there so quick though?
> 
> Even with Red Cross passage - papers all neatly prepared thanks to the Vatican - I'm convinced it was via submarine.
> 
> ...


   Any U boat found would have been sunk the idea that the allies could gurantee safe passage to a u boat is a none starter .Wouldn't really be worth paper its written on any way .Tendency to shoot first  at any submarine shaped  object being pretty prevelant .


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 22, 2008)

fela fan said:


> I'm afraid i went off on one. I wake up feeling somewhat contrite and stupid...!



We are now  since it appears beers were the culprits


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 22, 2008)

Further update: 7/7 'Truth' campaigners complaining that they are being smeared as 'conspi-racists ( whilst making no effort whatsoever to distance themselves from Kollerstrom's views might like to ponder why Kollerstrom, using his online ID of 'astro3' replies to Blairwatch with a link to the 'julyseventh.co.uk' site in his name. Three times.

Two of the 7/7 site owners, 'Kier' and Bridget Dunne also posting at the same time, also linking to the julyseventh.co.uk site, seem perfectly happy about this and of an accord with Kollerstrom in what he says
( which is about 7/7).

Now, I'm sure if you consider yourself to be a nice, well-meaning person with 'questions about 7/7' it must be horrifying to find that your movement contains people who are raging anti-Semites and holocaust-deniers, who happily count themselves as fellow travellers with you. The July 7th conspiracy theorists cry foul when antisemites in their number are pointed out, and say piteously there is no Holocaust denial on their site
( unlike the nineeleven site, which the site owner is closing because of the antisemitism and holocaust denial on it, which the moderators have belatedly decided to stop since the Kollerstrom story broke).

 But the julyseventh site has private, secret forums - we don't know what goes on in there, what they discuss, and given their associations with the likes of Kollerstrom, we can only guess. So until they actually come out and say it, which they haven't done, instead preferring to go on the attack - as well as publishing foul abuse of anyone criticising conspiracy theories - I'm assuming that they have been caught with their pants down.

If the 'July 7th Truth' people want to show that they are not conspiracy theorists with Holocaust deniers, Jew-haters, and racists among them - RELEASE THE EVIDENCE! A slogan they are very familiar with. Until then....questions must remain. Without evidence, how can we trust their 'official explanation'?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> Removing him from their staff page was clearly a short term holding measure.  Still a mass of pages on/by him if you search their site.  Be interesting to see how seriously they are taking this if and when this other material disappears.  They might still want his publications for the reseach selectivity exercise.
> 
> http://www.ucl.ac.uk/



They are on it.They are taking it very seriously.

They've only had one day so far to deal with this, and they have already got him off the site. They are moving at warp speed for an academic institution


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2008)

Fucking hell, I go away to work for a day and the thread has grown by about 20 pages  

Glad to see that UCL seem to be taking action though, and PMSL @ the flapping over on the trooofers forums


----------



## pk (Apr 22, 2008)

That Bridget Dunne's a nutty old harridan isnt she?



Keep her away from pet rabbits and boiling water!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 22, 2008)

Is this now the longest UK Politics thread ever?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Not by some distance.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2008)

I've only had a chance to skim the last 20 pages or so, so could have missed it, but am I right in thinking Jazzz is noteable only by his absance?


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2008)

More or less. Once he realised that we weren't going to get sidetracked by any of his alternative conspiracy theories.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2008)

cesare said:


> More or less. Once he realised that we weren't going to get sidetracked by any of his alternative conspiracy theories.



Hmmm, hardly surprising


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> They are on it.They are taking it very seriously.
> 
> They've only had one day so far to deal with this, and they have already got him off the site. They are moving at warp speed for an academic institution



If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click



Yay


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> If you search for him in their site now, still get loads of hits but they are all empty when you click



So he's disappeared down the academic memory hole, has he?

Good riddance to the unperson.


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2008)

Interesting. I wonder whether Housmans are still stocking this:

The Case against War - The Essential Legal Inquiries, Opinions and Judgements concerning War in Iraq, (Eds) George Farebrother and Nicholas Kollerstrom (Legal Enquiry Steering Group, 2003), £5.00

http://www.housmans.com/booklists/peace/pc10.htm

'Legal Enquiry Steering Group' - what was that then,  anyone know?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Probably part of the centre for proper intenational law or something like that with NK was central to for years. I cannot quite remember the name though.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> So he's disappeared down the academic memory hole, has he?
> 
> Good riddance to the unperson.



He's still on the Socialist Review website:
http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8871

Now _they _wouldn't rewrite history, would they?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Probably part of the centre for proper intenational law or something like that with NK was central to for years. I cannot quite remember the name though.




INSTITUTE  FOR  LAW  AND  PEACE 
http://www.inlap.freeuk.com/


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 22, 2008)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I've only had a chance to skim the last 20 pages or so, so could have missed it, but am I right in thinking Jazzz is noteable only by his absance?



Nah, he's elsewhere with 'vaccinations are bad for your kids health' stuff in Trashypony's thread about giving trashcolt MMR.


----------



## cesare (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> INSTITUTE  FOR  LAW  AND  PEACE
> http://www.inlap.freeuk.com/





> providing useful research and information


 blimey


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> nick griffin had a history degree from cambridge ffs but it didn't stop him publishing a pamphlet entitled something like "did six million really die".



for the record, i don't think nick griffin ever published that piece of trash. i can't be bothered to google it, but if my memory serves me correctly it was published by some nut called something like Richard Verrenals in the 1970s.

ETA; actually, i might be getting it mixed up with another similar waste of paper called 'the six million reconsidered' . sure someone with more time on their hands, who isn't sitting in an open office can correct me if so.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

He was prosecuted for incitement based on holocaust denial writings in The Rune - based heavily on that same pseudonmynous trash (turned out to be from a fellow NF member - NG was in the BNP by that point though, plotting his takeover).


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> He's still on the Socialist Review website:
> http://www.socialistreview.org.uk/article.php?articlenumber=8871
> 
> Now _they _wouldn't rewrite history, would they?



'Former SWP members and associates.... You do not exist, you never existed.'

'If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever...'


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

Hang on, it's only a letter isn't it?


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, it's only a letter isn't it?



I've got one of those in an issue of SR from January 2003 (I think).

I was defending direct action.

Christ, how naive and green was I then?


----------



## ymu (Apr 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> for the record, i don't think nick griffin ever published that piece of trash. i can't be bothered to google it, but if my memory serves me correctly it was published by some nut called something like Richard Verrenals in the 1970s.
> 
> ETA; actually, i might be getting it mixed up with another similar waste of paper called 'the six million reconsidered' . sure someone with more time on their hands, who isn't sitting in an open office can correct me if so.


Right first time - Richard Verrals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Did_Six_Million_Really_Die?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 22, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Nah, he's elsewhere with 'vaccinations are bad for your kids health' stuff in Trashypony's thread about giving trashcolt MMR.



Which no doubt he'll do a runner from as soon as he's asked to backup his bullshit


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

ok, so it wasn't that one then. wasn't griffin in jail for publishing a similar holocaust denial pamphlet though?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> ok, so it wasn't that one then. wasn't griffin in jail for publishing a similar holocaust denial pamphlet though?




Never went to jail, got 9 months suspended in 98 for the stuff in The Rune.


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> He was prosecuted for incitement based on holocaust denial writings in The Rune - based heavily on that same pseudonmynous trash (turned out to be from a fellow NF member - NG was in the BNP by that point though, plotting his takeover).



i thought The Rune was John cato's C18 paper?

that said, they never seem to come up with the most imaginative of titles for their mags so probably just choose one option from the revolving name-pool of 'the rune', 'the oak', 'awake', 'new dawn' or whatever other crap is in vogue this decade.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> i thought The Rune was John cato's C18 paper?
> 
> that said, they never seem to come up with the most imaginative of titles for their mags so probably just choose one option from the revolving name-pool of 'the rune', 'the oak', 'awake', 'new dawn' or whatever other crap is in vogue this decade.



Yep, these norsemen are a bit unoriginal. This Rune was Paul Ballard's (in C18's oribt) then NG started using it to assemble his takeover team - oddly enought by peddling all the crap he's now trying to get rid of.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

pk said:


> How did they get there so quick though?
> 
> Even with Red Cross passage - papers all neatly prepared thanks to the Vatican - I'm convinced it was via submarine.
> 
> ...



Given the collusion with ideological decendants of the vile Palvelic and his mates, and the fact that in one CIA assisted coup in South America one of the generals who took power published a book saying the holocaust didn't exist shortly after he got in, i would say thats not a far fetched theory at all. And the fact that the party that entered power in Ukraine in 2004, backed up by the US, was heavily linked to UNA-UNSO, a neo-Nazi organisation blamed for several attacks on Jews and Russians. 

And then of course theres the fact that the USA, before it was attacked, seriously considered entering WWII on Germany's side. 

Its not far fetched at all.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, it's only a letter isn't it?



True,  but let me have my moment of fun.  More interesting, potentially, is that he claimed to have been a Respect _member _(but that's another thread).

Clearly, the guy isn't a far righter in any neat or obvious sense.  However he seems to have a weird mix of green, anti-war and holocaust revisionist views - all within a weird new age shell.  Certainly not the first, but its an odd mix nevertheless.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> i thought The Rune was John cato's C18 paper?
> 
> that said, they never seem to come up with the most imaginative of titles for their mags so probably just choose one option from the revolving name-pool of 'the rune', 'the oak', 'awake', 'new dawn' or whatever other crap is in vogue this decade.



yeah they always have a bit of an obsession with old norse mythology, dont they. 

despite the fact that before christianity came along, jews who found their way into europe, and pagans both lived together quite happily.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

http://trans-int.blogspot.com/2005/01/seeing-una-unso-with-update.html

Some very interesting stuff there (from 2005)


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> yeah they always have a bit of an obsession with old norse mythology, dont they.
> .



indeed they do. but one suspects it would take more than the chill north winds to temper quite what they find so appealing about the norse iconography that decorates their magazine covers.

big bearded men with broadswords held aloft - really, it's more Tom of Finland than Der Sturmer


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

http://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=318


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> indeed they do. but one suspects it would take more than the chill north winds to temper quite what they find so appealing about the norse iconography that decorates their magazine covers.
> 
> big bearded men with broadswords held aloft - really, it's more Tom of Finland than Der Sturmer





Although some of the stuff in Der Sturmer and its modern day equivalents about Jewish doctors raping Aryan women and black men with huge penises is pretty grotesquely pornographic as it is ...


----------



## Belushi (Apr 22, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> indeed they do. but one suspects it would take more than the chill north winds to temper quite what they find so appealing about the norse iconography that decorates their magazine covers.
> 
> big bearded men with broadswords held aloft - really, it's more Tom of Finland than Der Sturmer



I like it when one of them dies and you get all those 'We'll meet again in Valhalla my white brother!' posts


----------



## Belushi (Apr 22, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Although some of the stuff in Der Sturmer and its modern day equivalents about Jewish doctors raping Aryan women and black men with huge penises is pretty grotesquely pornographic as it is ...



I dont think you can properly understand fascism without taking account of the weird sexual undercurrents.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I wish you'd stop insinuating that I'm in some way defending his ramblings because I'm not.



I've insinuated nothing, I've implied nothing.

You know what they say about an unquiet conscience, don't you?

*See? THAT is an insinuation.*


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2008)

Yossarian said:


> Yep - 'anti-semitic' isn't a completely accurate term for Jew-hating but it's pretty much universally accepted as shorthand for such and I've never seen an utterance like "I'm not anti-semitic, Semites include..." not followed up with something about the evils of the Jews.



That's why, for the last several years, I've used "Judaeophobia" instead. It leaves Jew-haters far less room to manouvre.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 22, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> That's why, for the last several years, I've used "Judaeophobia" instead. It leaves Jew-haters far less room to manouvre.



Then you get, "I ain't afraid of no Jews!" 

I take your meaning, but you can't win with the willfully stupid.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Then you get, "I ain't afraid of no Jews!"
> 
> I take your meaning, but you can't win with the willfully stupid.



It'd be a hollow victory anyway, to be fair.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

4thwrite said:


> True,  but let me have my moment of fun.  More interesting, potentially, is that he claimed to have been a Respect _member _(but that's another thread).
> .



Hmmmm will look out for that one.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I like it when one of them dies and you get all those 'We'll meet again in Valhalla my white brother!' posts



I know pmsl.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I dont think you can properly understand fascism without taking account of the weird sexual undercurrents.



And the extreme misogynism. I once read a several page thread on VNN saying about how white women were the enemy of the white race


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 22, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I dont think you can properly understand fascism without taking account of the weird sexual undercurrents.



Can I bring Max Mosely up here


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 22, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> Can I bring Max Mosely up here



ACHTUNG!

EINS! ZWEI! DREI! VIER! FUNF! SECHS!

UH! UH! UH! OOOOOOOOOOOOGGGGGGHHHH!

And he's spent.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

http://                      www.(takethisbitout)una-unso.org (link broken because it's a fash site) 


http://www.takethisbitout.unaunso.org/index.php?lang=eng is a better link. 

This is the neo-Nazi organisation linked to Yuschenko's "our ukraine" party which gained power in 2004, backed up by the USA.

theyre just fighting against the establishment ...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 22, 2008)

as for all that lost gold...

...There is also some very, very dodgy stuff involving the Catholic Church and the German nazis and others including the Ustasha, during and after the war. The vatican has literally millions stashed away from the Nazi era. The church leadership has never fully owned up to its role in world war 2- 

To their credit a lot of Catholic priests and nuns did their best to oppose the regime in Germany and were subjected to appalling "show trials" for supposed sexual and financial misconduct. 

It was a Catholic bishop who managed to get the T4 programme stopped in 1939, and the Catholic church were the only real alternative political force apart from the Nazis in Germany. The Nazis could never entirely "control" the church, although they wanted to. 

Unfortunatley a lot of the time they didnt even have to because so many people in the catholic church's hierarchy were in favour of nazism and were perfectly willing to collaborate with Hitler


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 22, 2008)

What always amazes me is that the truther community has yet to implode  by attacking itself. Why are none of them asking if kollestrom is actually a mossad agent hell-bent on discrediting the movement with all this talk of moon cheese with satelites on toast?


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 22, 2008)

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/news-articles/0804/08042202

Oh look




			
				the mighty UCL said:
			
		

> Dr Nicholas Kollerstrom
> 
> 22 April 2008
> 
> ...



back of the net!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

Conspiraloons in dissarray
*ww.nineeleven.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?t=14382&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0


Tony Gosling PWNED as well


see last two posts on page one



			
				Tony Gosling on the loon site said:
			
		

> I disagree with you, this IS one of the best 911 sites in the world and remains so. It' so good to see the likes of Rick Segal saying so.
> 
> *For example, we're in a difficult situation as a movement with Nick K being accused of holocaust denial by Rachel North just after I institute a 'get tough' policy on the holocaust, urged on me by users. *I decided to make an exeption to the rule otherwise we would be censoring this crucial debate. It's only by taking my own prejudices out of the equation that this space can thrive but I do need people to PM me at the very least if they think I am being prejudiced. It's no good just moaning about me behind my back down the pub






			
				chris c on the loon site said:
			
		

> TonyGosling wrote:
> we're in a difficult situation as a movement with Nick K being accused of holocaust denial by Rachel North just after I institute a 'get tough' policy on the holocaust
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 23, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> back of the net!


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

The 9/11 site is to disappear in June after the site owner pulled the plug due to the antisemitism on the site.

Tony Gosling tried to belatedly remove all the antisemitic holocaust denial stuff, hilariously calling it a ''Mossad plot to discredit 9/11 truth''

then said it was because he had *already* instituted a ''get tough '' policy - this turned out to be a lie, it was only in response to regular poster astro3/Kollerstrom being outed as a holocaust denier and general blogger/urban 75 investigation into other antisemitic material on the 9/11 loon site posted by  _other_ posters, indicating antisemitic lunacy was rife in the 'movement' 

 - 9/11 poster  calls him on this. Meanwhile, it turns out that the BBC have been interviewing Kollerstrom and other conspiracy theorists from the 9/11 loon board for a documentary about 7/7 conspiracy theories, a subject which they have been apparently happily spouting off about ( Kollerstrom is writing a book on his loony theories). I didn't know this until Kollerstrom and pals decided that the 'outing' was part of a BBC plot.

Which it wasn't, it was entirely a coincidence - they interviewed him before the story broke - however the BBC are very fascinated by the latest developments outing Kollerstrom as a holocaust denier, and this fascinating insight into the mindset of some of their interviewees will certainly be going in.


Exit conspiraloons in disarray.


----------



## cesare (Apr 23, 2008)

He 'outed' himself to be fair. 

He was then challenged and held to account for his views, rather than letting his views be pass unchallenged and therefore absorbed into the thinking.


----------



## cesare (Apr 23, 2008)

When I read that UCL newslink, this was the image that was on the right of it:







Colony synagogue. It seemed most appropriate, and touching.

To my disappointment, I've now realised that it's an RSS feed so the images keep changing, heh.

But at the moment I saw it, this was the one linked to it, so I thought I'd post it as a more permanent sorta thing.


----------



## cesare (Apr 23, 2008)

Colony Synagogue


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> What always amazes me is that the truther community has yet to implode  by attacking itself. Why are none of them asking if kollestrom is actually a mossad agent hell-bent on discrediting the movement with all this talk of moon cheese with satelites on toast?



The truthers seem to have fallen into the same habits as the JFKers, the Jonestowners etc did before them where, while there *are* factions with different "spins" on what happened, they tend to close ranks against outsiders rather than looking inward. I suspect it makes it easier for them to alter their discourse to incorporate new levels of weirdness or (rarely) new "official" data, if there's some kind of "united front".


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> What always amazes me is that the truther community has yet to implode  by attacking itself. Why are none of them asking if *kollestrom is actually a mossad agent* hell-bent on discrediting the movement with all this talk of moon cheese with satelites on toast?



Actually, they *are *saying it's a Mossad trick


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2008)

to be absolutely fair some of them are challenging the holocaust denial stuff.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

Yeah, after _a whole year_ of it being posted up there.

And this storm breaking.

Whereupon it is suddenly being removed


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 23, 2008)

Innit and many of them seem to be less pissed off with the fact that he's denied the holocaust than the fact that it makes them "look bad" and that he was "stupid" enough to "discredit" them.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

*plays tiny violin to the weeping lizards in the packed audience*

I love the fact that we are being accused of being  Nazis by these people.

Twats


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Innit and many of them seem to be less pissed off with the fact that he's denied the holocaust than the fact that it makes them "look bad" and that he was "stupid" enough to "discredit" them.



Gosling says that explicitly.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 23, 2008)

an irate loon said:
			
		

> Tony ran this Forum under a reign of terror, threatening people with removal of articles and banning for reasons that had nothing at all to do with 911 and everything to do with his own ideological leanings. That was certainly not the behaviour of a responsible moderator or, in his case, Administrator as he would have it.
> 
> No one should fall for his latest trick of requesting a copy of the archives. This is a crafty way of gaining credibility for a breakaway forum which he will now form as the "authentic" 911 Truth forum.



Poor Tony, not very popular since his holocaust thread deletions since the Koller-storm

(((ickle Tony Gosling)))


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *plays tiny violin to the weeping lizards in the packed audience*
> 
> I love the fact that we are being accused of being  Nazis by these people.
> 
> Twats



What you mean Nazis as in we just sit around and do nothing at all?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> *plays tiny violin to the weeping lizards in the packed audience*
> 
> I love the fact that we are being accused of being  Nazis by these people.
> 
> Twats



Or Nazis as in we're actually being nice to them?


----------



## Jessiedog (Apr 24, 2008)

Phew!

That was quite a read.




Woof


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

Nineeleven board in disarray, who would have thought that a bunch of paranoid obsessives would end up falling out?


----------



## smokedout (Apr 24, 2008)

> 'Rachel "North" and the Gestapo thought police'
> '... It started earlier this month, around 14 April, when the blogger ad nauseum Rachel 'North' decided that [Nick Kollerstrom] was a Holocaust denier! This woman found out that he had some questions about the location of the gas chambers in Auschwitz. He is not a denier, but has found credible some research that suggests the gas chambers, as marked today, show no traces of cyanide gas ...
> 
> ... To my fellow Jews in London, ignore her and others' nonsense about Nick Kollerstrom. He is actually a very good-natured person, he has lived among us for 60 years and we know who he is - I do not need to use brackets around his surname as I have done with 'North', who, by the way, has been known to introduce herself by telling people she is not an MI5 agent.'
> ...



http://davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/48/


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

Urban75 ''nasty idlers'' shock 




			
				a loon  said:
			
		

> What has really been exposed is the depths of human depravity, when nasty idlers would go to such lengths to calumny someone.






			
				a loon said:
			
		

> And why state that Nick is a Holocaust denier, when he is not?



Er...




			
				Nick Kollerstrom said:
			
		

> Hi, I note you seem to object to my having defended the proposition that: no German ever put a Jew into a gas chamber. You call that Holocaust Denial, well I’m proud to be associated with it. I’m happy to defend, it any time, any place. It happens to be true!



Arse. 

Smokedout, are you trembling?


----------



## ymu (Apr 24, 2008)

BK, I know you wanted to keep your blog free of Holocaust discussion, but there are three papers which demolish Nick's primary arguments (cyanide residues and fuel for burning bodies). BA posted links to a couple of them earlier and I think the other one is linked on the same site. They're very easy to understand. If the press start getting interested in this story, it could be a huge bonus if they find the appallingness of the science in Nick's article the bigger story. Repetition of these lies is designed to sow doubt in the minds of people who don't have the time or inclination to look it up for themselves.

If you want to post a summary as well as links, I can try and draft something to save you time - although it's nearly my bedtime and people like Butchers and Froggy are far better informed than I am, so no offence if someone else does it.

But only if you want to. I'm not trying to hijack your blog.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

It's kind of you and thanks for the offer. Thing is, I'm trying not to get into discussion with them, and have said ''no holocaust discussion, no links''  because if I post up links it is indicative to them that I am up for a debate, which I'm not.

Every time  I write about terrorism or the holocaust or something which has a conspiracy theory attached to it, I get plagued by lunatics leaving obnoxious comments and all the rest of it. It gets to the point where sometimes I just don't bother commenting at all, because I can't face having to to read/moderate all the crap that flies my way.

There is loads I want to say on about the current terrorism trials, which I am following closely, but they are all gunning for me as it is  - even though  Blairwatch, Harry, Unity, Liberal Conspiracy, Bloggerheads The Void and numerous other  sites are commenting on the matter, it is almost always me who they write about and  direct their anger at. Possibly because I am a girl, or something. So if someone else wants to write a refutation of Kollerstrom's bollocks, I'll link and direct traffic, but I don't want to host the discussion as I want to  avoid having to delete endless abuse, and I'd rather not have comment moderator on


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

The fact that that guy puts your last name in scare quotes probably means he thinks your real name is "Nortenstein" or something


----------



## ymu (Apr 24, 2008)

Totally respect that. I've stopped myself from adding to the comments so far for exactly those reasons. (I know what I'm like. )

The Void is in the media mix now, right? Smokedout, would you be interested? It could be done as a mini-series, as he covers quite a lot of the standard crap - maybe starting with the chemistry as this is NK's academic area and the opening to the paper.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

I find it quite amusing that these fash are going on about the "gestapo thought police". I mean according to them the Gestapo were no worse than "Dixon of Dock Green" so really being accused of being a member of them should be quite a compliment


----------



## smokedout (Apr 24, 2008)

if you (or anyone) wants to write something im happy to put it up, but am a bit busy to do it justice right now so dont have time to do it myself

as for icke, i think hes been on the sauce again


----------



## winjer (Apr 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> Interesting. I wonder whether Housmans are still stocking this:
> 
> The Case against War - The Essential Legal Inquiries, Opinions and Judgements concerning War in Iraq, (Eds) George Farebrother and Nicholas Kollerstrom (Legal Enquiry Steering Group, 2003), £5.00


Do you think they shouldn't?



> 'Legal Enquiry Steering Group' - what was that then,  anyone know?



List of members here:
http://www.war.inquiry.freeuk.com/steering.htm
Book here:
http://www.war.inquiry.freeuk.com/CAWcontents.htm


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 24, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> The fact that that guy puts your last name in scare quotes probably means he thinks your real name is "Nortenstein" or something



yea, i love it when they do that. Tyndall was always a great fan of doing that in his Spearhead columns. 

John "Smith".

Aha! Not _John Smithowitz-zionberg_?

No, really, just _John Smith_


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2008)

smokedout said:


> http://davidicke.com/content/blogcategory/30/48/



Blimey, and I thought that jazzz often showed a paucity of critical thinking. These people make him seem like a positive analytical marvel!


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

chico enrico said:


> yea, i love it when they do that. Tyndall was always a great fan of doing that in his Spearhead columns.
> 
> John "Smith".
> 
> ...


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 24, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Blimey, and I thought that jazzz often showed a paucity of critical thinking. These people make him seem like a positive analytical marvel!



Speaking of Jazzz, where is he?


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 24, 2008)

Still banging on about vaccination on Trashy's MMR thread...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Speaking of Jazzz, where is he?



Dunno, I notice that he's studiously avoiding this thread, though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Still banging on about vaccination on Trashy's MMR thread...



Easier target, innit?


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Apr 24, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Easier target, innit?



Less emotive maybe; still very tricky in relation to the facts...but that's for another day and that other thread.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## chico enrico (Apr 24, 2008)

Great quote from Jazzz over on the MRR thread:




			
				Jazzz said:
			
		

> I am stating it as my personal opinion. Scientifically, it's a hypothesis. Which you have done absolutely nothing to disprove.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 24, 2008)

Looks like Gosling has decided to nick the 911 boards database and set up his own version of the site minus all the posters he doesn't agree with, and with all the posts he doesn't like deleted or hidden or censored in some manner.

Real site

Fake site

Regged to Tony Gosling last month. Looks like he'd been planning this for a while - exactly ariound the ime when people started complianing baout his authoritarian modding and high handed attitude. Great stuff


----------



## Chairman Meow (Apr 24, 2008)

I was in Auchwitz and Birkinau on Monday. Even though I'd done a fair bit of reading around the holocaust, the scale and horror of it really got to me. I have been having nightmares since. So I'm delighted to see the holocaust denier scum get pwned. Good work people. 

And as for Jazz, I always thought he was just a  harmless fruit loop. Now I see he's mates with utter shitbags like NK, _even though he is Jewish_, well, words really fail me. But I won't be bothering to engage with him again.


----------



## cesare (Apr 24, 2008)

So few people will write down their impressions, even though 60+ years on. There's a reluctance, keep it inside.

There was a poster on this thread (was it MikeMCC? can't remember) who mentioned that he'd been to a couple of camps and suggested that the conspiracy theorists and/or holocaust deniers should have to go.  It was a short post though, again, you gained an impression more by what wasn't said.

I can understand the reluctance, course I can. But I feel we have to keep the memory alive. Never forget.

edit: wasn't specifically thinking of you there CM, I just voiced what I'd been thinking since last week.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 24, 2008)

I've never wanted to go to any of the camp sites or anything like that for that reason  

world war 2 has always been a (somewhat) big part of my life and if i went i'd have nightmares too i think ...


----------



## cesare (Apr 24, 2008)

Writing it down almost dehumanises it. I've been really struggling with reading the links that butchers posted back there ->

At first I thought it was the use of a serif font, so I copied the whole thing into a word doc sans serif so that it was easier to read. But I still haven't finished it (the longer doc).

Then you have that weird weird feeling about these places, and you don't know how to describe it. Because if you do, it sounds too spooky & unreal and you worry that people who haven't experienced will think you're either exaggerating or sentimental. But it's not like that, it's just that the 'acceptable' language we have to describe it doesn't do it justice.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

I went to Auschwitz when I was working  in Poland in 1990. It was one of the most disturbing places I have ever been to, and I dreamed of it for years afterwards.

The piles of girls and women's plaits, chopped off, piled several feet high. The spectacles, mountains of them. The photos of people's faces, snapped with their eyes full of tears and horror, or just looking broken. 

And the fact that no birds sang.

It was a place of utter evil. It was almost unbearable to be there.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> Writing it down almost dehumanises it. I've been really struggling with reading the links that butchers posted back there ->
> 
> At first I thought it was the use of a serif font, so I copied the whole thing into a word doc sans serif so that it was easier to read. But I still haven't finished it (the longer doc).
> 
> Then you have that weird weird feeling about these places, and you don't know how to describe it. Because if you do, it sounds too spooky & unreal and you worry that people who haven't experienced will think you're either exaggerating or sentimental. But it's not like that, it's just that the 'acceptable' language we have to describe it doesn't do it justice.



I think it was Primo Levi who said that to really write it down you had to experience it, and if you'd experienced it then you didn't want to write any more.


----------



## Chairman Meow (Apr 24, 2008)

A few things I saw on Monday, and I will never get out of my head again.

Block 10, where they experimented on women.
Block 11 - the prison - in particular the standing cells.
The execution wall.
The photos of some of the children, and the terror in their eyes. 
The crematoria.
The ash ponds.
The chimneys at Birkenau.
The train tracks.
The wind, even though Monday was a sunny day.

All of it, really. 

We must never forget.


----------



## Dillinger4 (Apr 24, 2008)

Theodor Adorno said some interesting stuff about 'writing after Auschwitz'



> Adorno's is an ethics and metaphysics "after Auschwitz." Ethically, he says, Hitler's barbarism imposes a "new categorical imperative" on human beings in their condition of unfreedom: so to arrange their thought and action that "Auschwitz would not repeat itself, [that] nothing similar would happen" (ND 365). Metaphysically, philosophers must find historically appropriate ways to speak about meaning and truth and suffering that neither deny nor affirm the existence of a world transcendent to the one we know.



http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/adorno/#6


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 24, 2008)

cesare said:


> Then you have that weird weird feeling about these places, and you don't know how to describe it. Because if you do, it sounds too spooky & unreal and you worry that people who haven't experienced will think you're either exaggerating or sentimental. But it's not like that, it's just that the 'acceptable' language we have to describe it doesn't do it justice.



I've never visited any of the killing factories in Poland, but I've been to Dachau and Sachenhausen, places I have a familial connection to. Spooky and unreal describes it well enough. The evil and misery linger; it's palpable, hovering over those places like a cloud, even all these years later. 

I'd imagine Auschwitz-Birkenau would be that, in spades. When the news broke about British students going there on educational day-trips, the denier forums were labeling it child-abuse. 

An odd thing to call it, if nothing untoward happened there.


----------



## cesare (Apr 24, 2008)

Dillinger4 said:


> Theodor Adorno said some interesting stuff about 'writing after Auschwitz'
> 
> 
> 
> http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/adorno/#6



_To still write a poem after Auschwitz is barbaric_

but later

_Perennial suffering has as much right to expression as the tortured have to scream... hence it may have been wrong to say that no poem could be written after Auschwitz._

Disenchantment, Weber. That's interesting.


----------



## cesare (Apr 24, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I've never visited any of the killing factories in Poland, but I've been to Dachau and Sachenhausen, places I have a familial connection to. Spooky and unreal describes it well enough. The evil and misery linger; it's palpable, hovering over those places like a cloud, even all these years later.
> 
> I'd imagine Auschwitz-Birkenau would be that, in spades. When the news broke about British students going there on educational day-trips, the denier forums were labeling it child-abuse.
> 
> An odd thing to call it, if nothing untoward happened there.



My b/f was describing Dachau last Friday evening, but though he'll talk about it, he won't write it down.

About 15 years ago, I had a strange experience on holiday driving through France. We stopped at a long wide lay-by to stretch our legs and have a break. Quite high up altitude wise, we didn't know where we were exactly, I was map reading but just the roads A to B. As soon as we got out of the car, the place felt really weird. Complete silence and very oppressive. It was just a lay-by on a road. I wanted to get back in the car and drive on, but my ex wanted to stop a while ... and he'd spotted something a bit further up the lay-by. So we went to have a look. It was a plain concrete pillar with a plaque explaining that this a marker for the outer edges of one of the camps. I can't remember which one (although I think probably Natzweiler-Struthof). I just needed to get away.


----------



## ymu (Apr 25, 2008)

And now this ...



> David Cameron was facing intense political criticism last night after including student “trips to Auschwitz” on a list of government gimmicks.
> 
> The Tory leader was resisting opposition calls to apologise about the reference to visits, organised by the Holocaust Educational Trust, in a list of “Gordon Brown’s 26 gimmicks” included in a speech.
> 
> ...


----------



## Fullyplumped (Apr 25, 2008)

The Scottish National Party thinks it's a gimmick as well, and they run the government up here.  

Judging by the comments in this Herald story, some of their fans think that it's a Labour Friends of Israel plot and -
_Don't the schools have access to the Internet. Show them "The Pianist" excerpts from "Sophie's Choice" "Schindler's List" and a few others. There is also an excellent BBC documentary on Auschwitz.​_


----------



## pk (Apr 25, 2008)

So no more legal threats from Nazi-fetishist antisemite Herr Kollerstrom then?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 25, 2008)

Someone just unhid the 'hidden' holocaust thread for a few minutes - hidden again now. I suspect some shit-stirring from behind the scenes as competing bidders for the sites ownership try and fuck each other over.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 25, 2008)

pk said:


> So no more legal threats from Nazi-fetishist antisemite Herr Kollerstrom then?




He's all surprised and puzzled, like a naive ickle lost lambkin faced with horrid thought-crime wolves



> Dr Kollerstrom, 61, an honorary research fellow at University College London until Tuesday, stood by the claims this week, but expressed surprise that they had caused offence.
> 
> And he insisted the university “had not actually told me what’s so terrible about the article”.
> 
> ...





> Dr Kollerstrom, of St John’s Wood, North West London, said he prefers to call himself a revisionist rather than a denier. Revisionists, he said, “want to look at European history without quite so much hate and bitterness”.
> 
> He also claimed he was the victim of “a calumny” by bloggers who had accused him of far-right sympathies and posted on the internet an image doctored to show him in Nazi uniform.
> 
> ...


.

Thanks to Butcher's Apron for finding the Jewish Chronicle article


----------



## winjer (Apr 25, 2008)

MikeMcc said:


> Further proof that he can't count, The UK hasn't suffered >1000 military fatalities in Iraq or Afghanistan.


Deaths on either side count.


----------



## kyser_soze (Apr 25, 2008)

Can I just add my concurrence with what those who've been to Auschwitz/Dachau etc have said about there being something wrong about the places. I'm Mr Materialist Atheist, but my experience of visiting Auschwitz and the ambience of the place...it's like something's deeply wrong with that part of reality...even tho I suspect that's imprinting of empathy based on knowledge of what's happened rather than any physical effects...


----------



## cesare (Apr 25, 2008)

Oh, look. An index of Nick Kollerstrom's work on the web



> The Kollerstrom Index
> 
> Nick Kollerstrom has quietly been publishing a huge body of work on the web. It ranges from the history of astronomy, to alchemy and astrology's relationship to metals, to horticulture and Moon cycles. For the first time, here are all the links collected together in one place.



http://www.astrozero.co.uk/

astro0 and astro3, presumably there's astros 1 and 2 out there as well.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2008)

From astro-zero to ground-zero.


----------



## Chairman Meow (Apr 25, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Can I just add my concurrence with what those who've been to Auschwitz/Dachau etc have said about there being something wrong about the places. I'm Mr Materialist Atheist, but my experience of visiting Auschwitz and the ambience of the place...it's like something's deeply wrong with that part of reality...even tho I suspect that's imprinting of empathy based on knowledge of what's happened rather than any physical effects...



I got this very strongly  on Monday, especially in the gas chamber of Auchwitz 1, and in the basement of the prison block. The only other time I felt like this was in the House of Terror in Budapest, where I had to leave the torture basement as I thougt I was going to pass out. I met my mate outside gasping for air, she had felt just the same. Maybe it is just over empathising or something, but those places just felt wrong to me.

Just remembered, my mum had a similar experience at Newgrange.


----------



## LJo (Apr 25, 2008)

Fullyplumped said:


> The Scottish National Party thinks it's a gimmick as well, and they run the government up here.
> 
> Judging by the comments in this Herald story, some of their fans think that it's a Labour Friends of Israel plot and -
> _Don't the schools have access to the Internet. Show them "The Pianist" excerpts from "Sophie's Choice" "Schindler's List" and a few others. There is also an excellent BBC documentary on Auschwitz.​_



My younger sister was one of those students. She went a few weeks ago. She's your typical cynical teenager but she came back absolutely stunned at the foulness of it all. It made her think very, very deeply about her beliefs and her responsibilities as a member of the younger generation. I think it's a very worthwhile scheme.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 25, 2008)

LJo said:


> My younger sister was one of those students. She went a few weeks ago. She's your typical cynical teenager but she came back absolutely stunned at the foulness of it all. It made her think very, very deeply about her beliefs and her responsibilities as a member of the younger generation. I think it's a very worthwhile scheme.



I couldnt agree more. 

We must never forget.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 25, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> He's all surprised and puzzled, like a naive ickle lost lambkin faced with horrid thought-crime wolves
> 
> 
> .
> ...



 

"Some of my best friends are Jewish" indeed.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2008)

LJo said:


> My younger sister was one of those students. She went a few weeks ago. She's your typical cynical teenager but she came back absolutely stunned at the foulness of it all. It made her think very, very deeply about her beliefs and her responsibilities as a member of the younger generation. I think it's a very worthwhile scheme.



The trouble is though, and at the risk of being flamed into an early grave, could the Govt's eagerness to ship out students to German POW camps be as much to do with trying to encourage people to naturally side with Israel in the middle east? I'm all for 'never forgetting', but I'm still cynical towards ulterior motives.


----------



## cesare (Apr 25, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> The trouble is though, and at the risk of being flamed into an early grave, could the Govt's eagerness to ship out students to German POW camps be as much to do with trying to encourage people to naturally side with Israel in the middle east? I'm all for 'never forgetting', but I'm still cynical towards ulterior motives.



Blimey.

Dunno what to say really, what with the Scottish Govt trying to stop it and all. 

Fwiw, my perception is that people are uncomfortable with it in IN THEIR FACE.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 25, 2008)

cesare said:


> Blimey.
> 
> Dunno what to say really, what with the Scottish Govt trying to stop it and all.
> 
> Fwiw, my perception is that people are uncomfortable with it in IN THEIR FACE.



I was talking about the UK Govt not the Scottish one and they're keen to promote it iirc. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm questioning their motives behind it.


----------



## pk (Apr 25, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> I was talking about the UK Govt not the Scottish one and they're keen to promote it iirc. I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm questioning their motives behind it.



I can see what you mean by that.
Its pretty fucked up when one has to look at initiatives like this with a cynical eye.. 

But this is what happens when you have a twat snake oil salesman in charge for so long, pissing away taxpayers money on focus groups and cunts like Alastair Campbell.

Trust in the government is at an all time low, thanks to New Labour's obssessively futile PR ...


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> The trouble is though, and at the risk of being flamed into an early grave, could the Govt's eagerness to ship out students to German POW camps be as much to do with trying to encourage people to naturally side with Israel in the middle east? I'm all for 'never forgetting', but I'm still cynical towards ulterior motives.



The vast majority of people murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau were _civilians_, not POWs. I don't get the connection between empathy for European Jews (people, individuals) murdered more than half a century ago and "siding with" present-day Israel (a state).


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 26, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> The vast majority of people murdered at Auschwitz-Birkenau were _civilians_, not POWs. I don't get the connection between empathy for European Jews (people, individuals) murdered more than half a century ago and "siding with" present-day Israel (a state).



Sorry, I meant concentration not POW camps - although thought the two were one and the same. Also, I don't connect having empathy for the plight of the Jews with support of the state of Israel, but the question remains, why are the Govt so keen to promote this in the education system? Bearing in mind that the UK blindly supports the US of which Israel is a client state.

Am I just being overly and needlessly cynical?


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry, I meant concentration not POW camps - although thought the two were one and the same. Also, I don't connect having empathy for the plight of the Jews with support of the state of Israel, but the question remains, why are the Govt so keen to promote this in the education system?



From what Ive seen of the British curriculum, the Holocaust module is tied into the Social Responsibility one. Perhaps one purpose of the trips is to draw a connection between the rhetoric used by the Nazis against Jews and the modern-day demonisation of British Muslims and non-whites by groups like the NF and the BNP.


----------



## Lock&Light (Apr 26, 2008)

pk said:


> I can see what you mean by that.
> Its pretty fucked up when one has to look at initiatives like this with a cynical eye..
> 
> But this is what happens when you have a twat snake oil salesman in charge for so long, pissing away taxpayers money on focus groups and cunts like Alastair Campbell.
> ...



You really can't be so young that you have forgotten Thatcher. Would you have preferred a Labour Party led by Michael Foot?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> Oh, look. An index of Nick Kollerstrom's work on the web



I don't want to get into ucl knocking because they got rid of him sharpish when they found out.  You do wonder though how much they knew before they were alerted.  Clearly the Holocaust Studies people didn't know about his holocaust denying - and to be fair it _may _well be that the Science Department didn't know anything.

I just do wonder a bit though.  He did his PhD there mid 90s - and has presumably been around the place on and off ever since - invited to research events at the very least.  He's been very open about his holocaust stuff as well as his astro/911 loonery - all under his own name as has been said and all over the internet.

Okay, _possible _that nobody knew about the 'no jews were gassed by germans' stuff, but I am surprised they gave an Honourary Fellowship to someone who was away with the fairies on astrology - and also publicly in stating that a bomb in his own city had been exploded by the government.

Suppose actually, provided they didn't know about the holocaust stuff, it might even be seen as a positive thing that they were willing to give a Fellowship to someone with bizarre views on other topics. Not the usual safety first approach.  Either way i find it difficult to believe nobody knew anything when it came to such a massive self-publicist.  Suspect the University itslef may be asking some of these questions.


----------



## HarryinOz (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> And the extreme misogynism. I once read a several page thread on VNN saying about how white women were the enemy of the white race



I used to go there years ago   .... Fuck me some of the flat out ignorance (denial?) of some of the posters amazed me ... I remember this Iranian guy trying to claim that Iranians are really who Hitler was referring too when he talked about "Aryans" in _Mein Kampf _and that they were indeed the "great tribes that came down from the North" ..... never mind  that Iran is to the East of Germany   .....


Aaahh WN's ... you funny ignorant dickheads.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

I know who you mean 

there are some crazy (and very damaged) people on there to be sure, and some utter psychopaths ...


----------



## HarryinOz (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> I know who you mean
> 
> there are some crazy (and very damaged) people on there to be sure, and some utter psychopaths ...



We may have crossed paths then? Was his name _Diabolic_ or something like that ? (I just seem to remember something like that is all) .... it's alway's good fun throwing in a few "hail marys" and see what the reaction is ...


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

Haha baiting nazis is always good fun yeah, until you start getting the sexual PMs...


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Haha baiting nazis is always good fun yeah, until you start getting the sexual PMs...



Gross. 

Just shows what low lifes they are. 

off topic Most of the committed fash I've met over the years have a 'strange' and not quite healthy sex life or respectful attitudes to partners.  The rest of them just spend their time wanking off over a Silvermans catalouge


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

The classic one was "if you weren't a kike i'd give you and your girlfriend the time of your life remember..."

Oh and the one who wanted me to meet up and have sex with him while his wife was out of the country.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> The classic one was "if you weren't a kike i'd give you and your girlfriend the time of your life remember..."
> 
> Nasty.
> 
> Oh and the one who wanted me to meet up and have sex with him while his wife was out of the country.



So much for all the bollocks they spout about marriage then. 

A weird one I encountered was the pro LGBT fash.  Hated Muslims but was OK with people having alternative sexualities because he 'knew some of them'


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> So much for all the bollocks they spout about marriage then.
> 
> A weird one I encountered was the pro LGBT fash.  Hated Muslims but was OK with people having alternative sexualities because he 'knew some of them'



Yeah there are some "libertarian" fash with extremely, shall we say, open minded ideas about sex and sexuality. 

look up "brandon orr" or "pornonationalism" some time for one of these characters with quite "interesting" ideas ... or maybe, don't.


----------



## pk (Apr 26, 2008)

LOLZA!


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

HarryinOz said:


> We may have crossed paths then? Was his name _Diabolic_ or something like that ? (I just seem to remember something like that is all) .... it's alway's good fun throwing in a few "hail marys" and see what the reaction is ...




That would be Diabloblanco. 

Put up a picture of a Levantine, dark Mediterranean, or non-Dravidian Indian person on any forum on the net under the thread title "Is This Person White?" and you'll attract him and his coterie of fellow loonies. He's the one person most of your White Power rangers and antiracists can agree is a complete idiot.

@Froggie: Now you've done it. Surely you know Brandon Orr routinely googles his name.


----------



## Das Uberdog (Apr 26, 2008)

What. The. Fuck.


----------



## ymu (Apr 26, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry, I meant concentration not POW camps - although thought the two were one and the same. Also, I don't connect having empathy for the plight of the Jews with support of the state of Israel, but the question remains, why are the Govt so keen to promote this in the education system? Bearing in mind that the UK blindly supports the US of which Israel is a client state.
> 
> Am I just being overly and needlessly cynical?


I think so yes. I don't doubt that Blair and Brown's less than objective Middle East adviser's will have had something to do with it, but I don't see how anyone could visit Auschwitz-Birkenau and come away with the belief that what Israel is doing to the Palestinians should be ignored.

It's a bogus connection. The Holocaust Survivors long ago dissociated themselves from Israeli Prime Ministers who used the Holocaust to justify their own atrocities.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

pk said:


> LOLZA!



It gets even stranger. Search for "Bruderschaft SSRB" sometime (nsfw). They're nazi fetish homos with a decided s&m bent. Extreme right politics meets jackboots and piss slavery.

Takes all kinds, don't it?


----------



## 8den (Apr 26, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> It gets even stranger. Search for "Bruderschaft SSRB" sometime *(nsfw).* They're *nazi fetish homos with a decided s&m bent. Extreme right politics meets jackboots and piss slavery.*
> 
> Takes all kinds, don't it?



The "NSFW" tag seems, just a tad, redundant.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 26, 2008)

HarryinOz said:


> I used to go there years ago   .... Fuck me some of the flat out ignorance (denial?) of some of the posters amazed me ... I remember this Iranian guy trying to claim that Iranians are really who Hitler was referring too when he talked about "Aryans" in _Mein Kampf _and that they were indeed the "great tribes that came down from the North" ..... never mind  that Iran is to the East of Germany   .....



I neverr read Mein Kampf, but seems to me you Iranian friend mixing up Persian history with contemporan, relating to the nomad tribes known as (and caling themselves) Arya who immigrated the Zagros, probably coming from the east, but some indeed argue they came from the north passing over the Caucasus. 
Known as masters in taming and riding of horses, especially the tribe confederation known as the Mede greatly contributed to the might of the Assyrian army and hence the might of Assyria on its whole. This confederation of tribes  formed the core of the Mede's uprise against the Assyrians which led to the rapid downfall of the Assyrians and the beginning of the Median rule. 
An other Aryan people that had been target of Assyrian conquest and rule was known by them as Parsua and which about two centuries later led to the former kingdom Anshan be known under no other name than The Land of the Persian. With those Aryan tribes lies the ancestry of Cyrus the Great, who brought along the downfall of the Median rule to replace it with the Persian Empire and conquering a territory vaster than what was ever seen in history.

salaam.


----------



## LJo (Apr 26, 2008)

I'd like to think you're being cynical, Citizen66.

Whatever the motivation behind the trips, it would seem that the people involved in them directly - they had a talk from a survivor and were accompanied by a rabbi - are completely sincere, at least.

And the result, in my sister's case anyway, has been to make her realise how much speaking out against oppression and fascism matters. I'd like to think that's been duplicated across the country. 

(Though she is still very much a teenager. She announced to me that if she sees any members of the BNP campaigning for local elections she is going to 'threaten them with physical violence." )


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> The trouble is though, and at the risk of being flamed into an early grave, could the Govt's eagerness to ship out students to German POW camps be as much to do with trying to encourage people to naturally side with Israel in the middle east? I'm all for 'never forgetting', but I'm still cynical towards ulterior motives.



Just a small point.
The govt aren't sending schoolkids to visit "German POW camps", aka "Stalags",  but to internment, concentration and death camps.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry, I meant concentration not POW camps - although thought the two were one and the same. Also, I don't connect having empathy for the plight of the Jews with support of the state of Israel, but the question remains, why are the Govt so keen to promote this in the education system? Bearing in mind that the UK blindly supports the US of which Israel is a client state.
> 
> Am I just being overly and needlessly cynical?



Probably not, given that exposure to such a thing *might* generate an automatic sympathy for Israel, but I suspect that's as far as it goes, and that in many cases any attempt to "self-educate" oneself about the issue to a greater degree will expose the person to facts about the state of Israel that would make the scales fall from their eyes while still allowing them to sympathise about the effects of the holocaust.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 26, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> Gross.
> 
> Just shows what low lifes they are.
> 
> off topic Most of the committed fash I've met over the years have a 'strange' and not quite healthy sex life or respectful attitudes to partners.  The rest of them just spend their time wanking off over a Silvermans catalouge



Or wanking off while dressed in what they've bought from the Silvermans catalogue. 

"Oh yeah, Denison para smock, ah, vinegar strokes, uh uh uh!!!"


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

pk said:


> LOLZA!



What the fuck? - what country was this?

did this actually happen?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> It gets even stranger. Search for "Bruderschaft SSRB" sometime (nsfw). They're nazi fetish homos with a decided s&m bent. Extreme right politics meets jackboots and piss slavery.
> 
> Takes all kinds, don't it?



Yeah there is a Nazi gay dating agency somewhere ... and even stranger/more disturbing, a dating site set up by - i hate using this word, but i cant think of a better one - "self-hating" Jewish gay guys looking for nazi boyfriends


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or wanking off while dressed in what they've bought from the Silvermans catalogue.
> 
> "Oh yeah, Denison para smock, ah, vinegar strokes, uh uh uh!!!"



I thought they bashed one out over pictures of models dressed as schoolgirls while slowly dying with a kettle cord round their necks.

Pity they don't all give that a try, really.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Yeah there is a Nazi gay dating agency somewhere ... and even stranger/more disturbing, a dating site set up by - i hate using this word, but i cant think of a better one - "self-hating" Jewish gay guys looking for nazi boyfriends



I've learned that there's no percentage in pondering the "why" of other people's fetishes. 

There are apparently European "historical re-enactors" who go on junkets to the Czech Republic to get the simulated concentration camp experience. Presumably, there's a Max Mosley element to their activities, based, probably, on the notion that _Ilsa, She-Wolf of the SS_ is great fappage material.

Personally, I'd rather not speculate about it, straight, gay or inter-species.


----------



## cesare (Apr 26, 2008)

The pink nazi thing isn't new is it?


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

No. the role of gay people in the nazis has been exaggerated, mind you, but that doesn't mean that this sort of stuff has never existed and didn't from 1933-45.


----------



## cesare (Apr 26, 2008)

http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/lively.html


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

cesare said:


> The pink nazi thing isn't new is it?



The ironic thing about the pink Nazi thing, and the adoption by the gay movement of pink as a colour, is that it stems from the concentration camps.

Inmates were made to wear different coloured triangles on their clothes to mark which category they belonged to, pink being the colour designated for gay inmates.

Of course, in the view of many Nazi's, this couldn't be possible as the Holocaust is claimed, despicably, as a hoax.

Incidentally, one of the more feared British Nazi's, a certain Nicky Crane, was gay and died of, IIRC, an AIDS-related illness.


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 26, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> Incidentally, one of the more feared British Nazi's, a certain Nicky Crane, was gay and died of, IIRC, an AIDS-related illness.



European nazis seem to have far less of the macho "I'm not a fag!" thing that typifies the American extremist right. In fact, a number of highly-placed people on the European right from nazis like Ewald Althans to your more mainstream types like Jörg Haider have been quite open about their orientaion.


----------



## cesare (Apr 26, 2008)

Yeah I know Bakunin. Rhetorical question thing going on there.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> European nazis seem to have far less of the macho "I'm not a fag!" thing that typifies the American extremist right. In fact, a number of highly-placed people on the European right from nazis like Ewald Althans to your more mainstream types like Jörg Haider have been quite open about their orientaion.



As was the Dutch rightist, I forget his name, who was assassinated a couple of years ago.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> European nazis seem to have far less of the macho "I'm not a fag!" thing that typifies the American extremist right. In fact, a number of highly-placed people on the European right from nazis like Ewald Althans to your more mainstream types like Jörg Haider have been quite open about their orientaion.



And a lot of anti-Muslim people in Europe these days, using the idea of a "threat to gay people" to get support for their views.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 26, 2008)

This is interesting to know...Next time there is some protest against "gay parade" or similar, all you have to say "blame the Nazis". 

salaam.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> As was the Dutch rightist, I forget his name, who was assassinated a couple of years ago.



Pim Fortuyn?


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Pim Fortuyn?



That's the one.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 26, 2008)

I don't think Pim Fortuyn had such great Nazi sympathies.

salaam.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I don't think Pim Fortuyn had such great Nazi sympathies.
> 
> salaam.




That's why I referred to him as a rightist rather than a Nazi.


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 26, 2008)

I'm now more or less expecting the U75 Club "attack all Muslims while posing as if we are attacking everything religious" to intervene with more explicit "insight" knowledge on all "Pim Fortuyn" 

salaam.


----------



## smokedout (Apr 26, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm now more or less expecting the U75 Club "attack all Muslims while posing as if we are attacking everything religious" to intervene with more explicit "insight" knowledge on all "Pim Fortuyn"
> 
> salaam.


 I find that post quite sad


----------



## Chairman Meow (Apr 26, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm now more or less expecting the U75 Club "attack all Muslims while posing as if we are attacking everything religious" to intervene with more explicit "insight" knowledge on all "Pim Fortuyn"
> 
> salaam.



Eh?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 26, 2008)

smokedout said:


> I find that post quite sad



Why? It is what usually happens when that Fan Club arrives 
Maybe this thread shall be spared of that type of "interventions" though.

salaam.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> No. the role of gay people in the nazis has been exaggerated, mind you, but that doesn't mean that this sort of stuff has never existed and didn't from 1933-45.



True.

The head of Hitler's first militant element, the SA, was a certain Ernst Rohm, who was pretty flagrant about his sexuality IIRC.

I've also heard more than the odd suggestion that Reinhard Heydrich, also known 'The Hangman' and 'The Butcher of Prague' and assassinated in 1942, had leanings in that direction.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> True.
> 
> The head of Hitler's first militant element, the SA, was a certain Ernst Rohm, who was pretty flagrant about his sexuality IIRC.
> 
> I've also heard more than the odd suggestion that Reinhard Heydrich, also known 'The Hangman' and 'The Butcher of Prague' and assassinated in 1942, had leanings in that direction.



and then there was julius streicher. not gay, but a fucking sleazebag who used to go out in public holding a whip.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Holocaust/Streicher.html


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 26, 2008)

I just remembered something else re: conspiracy theorists and Nazis...

The Nazis were obsessed with discovering their "Aryan origins" and travelled to India and Tibet to try and unearth archaeological discoveries relating to the "Aryan invasion" of India thousands of years previously. They were also obsessed with the Lost continent of Atlantis and spent inordinate amounts of time and money trying to discover it again...

so really, the fact that these people are into alchemy and discovering secret gold and shit isn't that weird


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 26, 2008)

IIRC, Hitler was absolutely mad about the occult and UFO's as well.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 27, 2008)

Yeah UFOs were another favourite theme of the Nazis. they got convinced that thousands of years the ancient people of Atlantis used these ultra technological UFOs to fly around the earth when they had their aryan empire - they even tried to replicate them towards the end of the war. I have an ex boyfriend who was obsessed with this shite. 

IIRC it wasn't so much Hitler but the other top Nazis, especially Himmler, who were into that shite. as far as i can remember hitler hated "superstitions" but tolerated them from Himmler.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 27, 2008)

At least he did until he found that Himmler had, during the last days of the war. entered into his little deal with the Allies and shunned him ever after.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 27, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> At least he did until he found that Himmler had, during the last days of the war. entered into his little deal with the Allies and shunned him ever after.


----------



## Citizen66 (Apr 27, 2008)

Aldebaran said:


> I'm now more or less expecting the U75 Club "attack all Muslims while posing as if we are attacking everything religious" to intervene with more explicit "insight" knowledge on all "Pim Fortuyn"
> 
> salaam.



Religion isn't generally viewed sympathetically within largely atheist circles.

The opposite is usually the case too


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> Religion isn't generally viewed sympathetically within largely atheist circles.
> 
> The opposite is usually the case too



Do you really think Urban is a 'largely atheist' circle?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 27, 2008)

Bakunin said:


> At least he did until he found that Himmler had, during the last days of the war. entered into his little deal with the Allies and shunned him ever after.




I read a quite disturbing book called SS-1 last year, which argues that the 'Himmler' thought to have committed suicide in Allied custody was a double, and that the real HH got away.

Like I said, it was disturbing.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 27, 2008)

Idris2002 said:


> I read a quite disturbing book called SS-1 last year, which argues that the 'Himmler' thought to have committed suicide in Allied custody was a double, and that the real HH got away.
> 
> Like I said, it was disturbing.



SS-1 would presumably be Himmler's SS membership number as he was founder of the SS. The lower the SS number, the greater the seniority and status of the Nazi concerned.

And I'm sure Jazzz would simply love yet another conspiracy for his collection, lol.


----------



## Jessiedog (Apr 27, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I've learned that there's no percentage in pondering the "why" of other people's fetishes.



Quite.

I've even given up pondering the "why" of _mine_!




Woof


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 27, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> and then there was julius streicher. not gay, but a fucking sleazebag who used to go out in public holding a whip.



I had a 'friends with benefits' thing going with a young lady last year, and she was heavily into the fetish and S+M scene (made for some interesting dates, I can tell you) and, during our chats about that she mentioned that Nazi regalia and 'scenes' (think Max Mosley) were very popular on the scene.

A case of art imitating life imitating art, really.


----------



## rich! (Apr 27, 2008)

cesare said:


> Do you really think Urban is a 'largely atheist' circle?



God, I hope so.


----------



## cesare (Apr 27, 2008)

rich! said:


> God, I hope so.




God Delusion deluded


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 27, 2008)

Idris2002 said:


> I read a quite disturbing book called SS-1 last year, which argues that the 'Himmler' thought to have committed suicide in Allied custody was a double, and that the real HH got away.
> 
> Like I said, it was disturbing.



It wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## pk (Apr 28, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> What the fuck? - what country was this?
> 
> did this actually happen?



Sort of - it was actually a rather brilliant counter-campaign to a fash march.

I don't think they went ahead with it in the end, but it's a brilliant idea that would definitely work - rather than taking them too seriously the next time they want to march on Bradford or wherever - knock up a few posters advertising a Nazi Gay Parade.

I'd love to see the faces of the jackbooted jerks once they turned up to march, and twigged what was happening and why everyone was laughing at them.

"Once a year busloads of Nazis from all over Scandinavia arrive at the little town of Lund, Sweden. 
They come to march in honour of Karl the 12th, who is buried there. 
Despite people disgust and negative media coverage, the Nazi community is still growing. 
This year we want to give the town a visit just before the nazis arrive.
With the help of posters and banners we want to make sure this years march
becomes a bit different. 
We think the new surroundings will provide
great footage for the press, and let people see the nazis in a
different way than they are used to."

http://www.thomas-eirik.com/Thomas & Eirik/nazi gay.html


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2008)

Hahahaha awesome


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 28, 2008)

I don't get why Scandanavian nazis would choose to gather in commemoration of Sweden's Charles the 12th. He lived off the largesse of the Ottoman Turks while in exile and spent most of his reign making war on Danes, Saxons and Norwegians.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 28, 2008)

they're fash, don't expect them to be troubled by such things as "logic"


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Apr 28, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> they're fash, don't expect them to be troubled by such things as "logic"



Very true. Maybe they have a missing gene that kills their logic processes?


----------



## Aldebaran (Apr 28, 2008)

I just looked at the 9/11 "bigger truth" forum where he claims he said nothing to provoke his univ to thrown him out (while, interestingly, he at the same time admits that he doesn't even know German).   
All the rest there comes across just as mad as he is.

salaam


----------



## pk (Apr 28, 2008)

Karl XII was ultimately a loser with no friends.

Much like Hitler.

So there's lots the fash can identify with.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 30, 2008)

The debate continues


----------



## Y_I_Otter (Apr 30, 2008)

pk said:


> Karl XII was ultimately a loser with no friends.
> 
> Much like Hitler.



Speaking of whom, it was sixty-three years ago today that he poisoned his dog, married his whore and shot himself in the temple with a pistol while biting down on a cyanide ampule.

A great excuse to hoist a few.


----------



## frogwoman (Apr 30, 2008)

Ten days after his birthday as well ..


----------



## Y_I_Otter (May 1, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Ten days after his birthday as well ..



I find that quite handy. When the internet nazis get all misty-eyed about his birthday on their forums, it reminds me that a mere week and a half later, antifa will also have something to commemorate.


----------



## Bakunin (May 1, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> I find that quite handy. When the internet nazis get all misty-eyed about his birthday on their forums, it reminds me that a mere week and a half later, antifa will also have something to commemorate.



Hmm.

I might just toddle over to Noncefront with that thought in mind...


----------



## Y_I_Otter (May 1, 2008)

Make sure to call it "Todestag". It gets their panties all in a bunch.


----------



## pk (May 1, 2008)

Y_I_Otter said:


> Speaking of whom, it was sixty-three years ago today that he poisoned his dog, married his whore and shot himself in the temple with a pistol while biting down on a cyanide ampule.



I'm pretty sure he poisoned his dog, and married Eva Braun, but I for one am not entirely convinced he shot himself or even died in that bunker.

Call me a conspiranoid!

I just don't take the Russians word for it. There were at least 10 different bodies with silly moustaches presented to Russian generals as being the body of Hitler.

A man with that many resources could quite easily have disappeared and the whole thing being covered up to save face.

Not a popular theory I know, but I will remain unconvinced until the Russians submit the jawbone they have for DNA testing, which they have resolutely refused to do up to now.


----------



## Wilf (May 1, 2008)

pk said:


> I will remain unconvinced until the Russians submit the jawbone they have for DNA testing, which they have resolutely refused to do up to now.




Maybe they'll unveil it before the Champions League Final?  Oh, no, hang on, Didier Drogba might trip over it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> The debate continues



I was quite amused by the fact that I knew what Brendan O'Niell's argument would be before I read it. Good old "Spiked", still following the "party line" over a decade after the death of "Living Marxism".


----------



## goldenecitrone (May 1, 2008)

pk said:


> I'm pretty sure he poisoned his dog, and married Eva Braun, but I for one am not entirely convinced he shot himself or even died in that bunker.
> 
> Call me a conspiranoid!
> 
> ...



There are lots of rumours in Germany about what happened to Hitler's body, where it was buried, etc, but I never heard any that he had somehow escaped.


----------



## coccinelle (May 1, 2008)

> A man with that many resources could quite easily have disappeared and the whole thing being covered up to save face.
> 
> Not a popular theory I know, but I will remain unconvinced until the Russians submit the jawbone they have for DNA testing, which they have resolutely refused to do up to now.



And what?  He also discovered the secret of immortality and he's still alive in Paraguay?  The geezer's dead and he's history.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 1, 2008)

coccinelle said:


> And what?  He also discovered the secret of immortality and he's still alive in Paraguay?  The geezer's dead and he's history.



They spliced Hitlers genes secretly with a lump of dogshit and created this!


----------



## Y_I_Otter (May 1, 2008)

goldenecitrone said:


> There are lots of rumours in Germany about what happened to Hitler's body, where it was buried, etc, but I never heard any that he had somehow escaped.



Most historians are in accord that Hitler's body was burned outside the chancellory by Otto Guensche and Martin Borman, according to Hitler's wishes. His physical death in the bunker is corroborated by a number of primary sources.


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2008)

KeyboardJockey said:


> They spliced Hitlers genes secretly with a lump of dogshit and created this!



Haha he does have "that" haircut ...


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2008)

goldenecitrone said:


> There are lots of rumours in Germany about what happened to Hitler's body, where it was buried, etc, but I never heard any that he had somehow escaped.



Have you not? There are loads of conspiracy theories about Hitler having escaped. 

I dont believe any of them myself mind ...


----------



## dylanredefined (May 1, 2008)

Why would he run and where too? Bonkers conspricy theory .A middle ranking nazi might have secret  swiss account and ablity to fool /bribe his way out .Herr hitler no chance .


----------



## frogwoman (May 1, 2008)

Well exactly ...


----------



## pk (May 2, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> Why would he run and where too? Bonkers conspricy theory .A middle ranking nazi might have secret  swiss account and ablity to fool /bribe his way out .Herr hitler no chance .



Where would he run?

A load of his mates ended up running to a place where they had well established Nazi connections, a good place to hide, plenty of wealth and an alarming amount of family that either went later or were there already. 

Certainly Adolf Eichmann, Erich Priebke and Josef Mengele, to name but a few.
Even Martin Bormann, if you want to believe that. Some do. 
Some claim to have absolute proof that Bormann escaped - and of course his body was never found.

And do you think Hitler had no access to the most immense amount of wealth imaginable, as well as valuable military secrets to trade with the Japanese who were still at war, or had no means to bribe the Russians, or even - perish the thought - the Allies?

Of course I don't think he's still alive now... but I do have serious doubts as to the evidence suggesting he died in 1945. Because frankly, there really is none, apart from the word of his loyal staff who didn't see or hear anything definitive, or the word of the Russians.

And even Stalin himself said he'd fled to South America, long after the original supposed "body" was found - he was desperate to find the body of Hitler and sent Vadis and the Smersh team, then an NKVD team, to retrieve it at all costs from the bunker.

Then 5 days later, they're supposed to have found it in a bomb crater yards from the bunker? 

Yet supposedly his body and that of Eva Braun were burned and buried beforehand...?

I just don't buy it, I certainly don't trust the Russian account. 
Even months later in August 1945, Stalin was accusing the British of having the "real" Hitler in another part of Berlin.


----------



## Aldebaran (May 3, 2008)

Hitler: The most interesting suggestion I heard of -  which as far as I am informed is underscored by testimony of his private physician - is that Hitler suffered from dementia and that indeed he was found shot dead. The question remains if it was suicide or murder, seen his supposed state. (this is not my field, but I find this an interesting path to follow because it explains a lot of the irationial decisions) 

salaam


----------



## dylanredefined (May 3, 2008)

What valuable military secrets? or wealth? His country was wrecked his dreams shattered why would he run an old sick man with all hope gone .
  If he was planning on running would have done it long before berlin fell imho.


----------



## Bernie Gunther (May 3, 2008)

dylanredefined said:


> What valuable military secrets? or wealth? His country was wrecked his dreams shattered why would he run an old sick man with all hope gone .
> If he was planning on running would have done it long before berlin fell imho.


 
Well to be fair there were some miltary secrets that the US thought it worth letting a bunch of Nazi war criminals escape justice for. e.g. Gen. Gehlen's files and numerous dodgy mates or Von Braun's rocket team. They were paying for (to them) valuable expertise in anti-communism or breakthrough technology though, which specialists like Gehlen's and Von Braun's guys had, but which the old carpet-chewer sadly lacked.


----------



## butchersapron (May 3, 2008)

NK back at it

The Greatest Lie Ever Told 

(Last post)

Seems like just about every other poster there now is genuinely sympathetic to holocaust denial.


----------



## cesare (May 3, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> NK back at it
> 
> The Greatest Lie Ever Told
> 
> ...



Kinell, though hardly surprising. Mind you, he's a great one for the chemistry innit, alchemy an all.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 4, 2008)

Now in the Obvserver


----------



## frogwoman (May 4, 2008)

ugh.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 4, 2008)

it's a very confused, crap article


----------



## cesare (May 4, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it's a very confused, crap article



That's what I thought. No wonder it brought the conspiracy theorists out in their droves for the comments.


----------



## frogwoman (May 4, 2008)

Some of the people arguing with those nutters (on the 9/11 forum) are amazing .


----------



## frogwoman (May 4, 2008)

cesare said:


> That's what I thought. No wonder it brought the conspiracy theorists out in their droves for the comments.



i think that's just CiF contributors tbf ...


----------



## cesare (May 4, 2008)

One thing that I did think was interesting were the comments about publications, peer research and area of academic study ...


----------



## cesare (May 4, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> i think that's just CiF contributors tbf ...



I meant, the article gave them grist for their mill.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Some of the people arguing with those nutters (on the 9/11 forum) are amazing .



I notice that a few of the truthers are still labouring under the illusion that Cohen is a Jew. 
Well, I suppose it fits their prejudices to think that just because he has a Jewish surname, he must be a 4 x 2.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 4, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it's a very confused, crap article



Bloody hell, that's the sort of thing that makes you lose hope in humanity. Cohen turns the whole thing into one of his "oh look at the multi-culti left, Islamist-huggers, you can't say anything these days without the PC police" pieces. The cunt. Then a bunch of other cunts turn up in the comments and talk about how actually the bombers were state patsies. The implication being that these are the two alternatives - rabid Eustonite bollocks or rabid conspiracy bollocks.


----------



## frogwoman (May 4, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I notice that a few of the truthers are still labouring under the illusion that Cohen is a Jew.
> Well, I suppose it fits their prejudices to think that just because he has a Jewish surname, he must be a 4 x 2.



i have to say, i didn't realise he wasn't jewish


----------



## Lock&Light (May 4, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> I notice that a few of the truthers are still labouring under the illusion that Cohen is a Jew.
> Well, I suppose it fits their prejudices to think that just because he has a Jewish surname, he must be a 4 x 2.



I have found work on the basis of Jews thinking that my surname means I'm Jewish.


----------



## frogwoman (May 4, 2008)

is nick cohen not jewish then?? cos i always thought he was ...


----------



## Idris2002 (May 4, 2008)

I think he's specifically said that he's not, at least once in the recent past.

Not that that would have helped him much in central Europe 70 years ago. . .


----------



## Idris2002 (May 4, 2008)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Bloody hell, that's the sort of thing that makes you lose hope in humanity. Cohen turns the whole thing into one of his "oh look at the multi-culti left, Islamist-huggers, you can't say anything these days without the PC police" pieces. The cunt. Then a bunch of other cunts turn up in the comments and talk about how actually the bombers were state patsies. The implication being that these are the two alternatives - rabid Eustonite bollocks or rabid conspiracy bollocks.



As for the sane and rational who reject both forms of bollocks.

That does not sleep which dreams in the deep.

We're the Great Old Ones now.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (May 5, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> it's a very confused, crap article


Oh good, not just me then. I couldn't quite work out what exactly he was trying to say. I thought I was being a bit thick because the weather was so hot and muggy and I was feeling less than sharp.


----------



## KeyboardJockey (May 5, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> is nick cohen not jewish then?? cos i always thought he was ...



No he isn't. There is also a Cohen who works for Buckingham Palace but isn't Jewish as well.


----------



## butchersapron (May 5, 2008)

Just read that Cohen piece. Talk about missing an open goal. That's what happens when you lose your political persepective and get a bit obssessed though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> i have to say, i didn't realise he wasn't jewish



He made a point, around the time of the Iraq war IIRC, of writing that he wasn't a Jew, in order that he didn't keep getting nutty e-mails for his support of the Iraq war accusing him of being an elder of Zion.


----------



## EddyBlack (May 9, 2008)

Somebody on the prisonplanet forum has just posted the Nick Kollerstrom article via Rense.com.

Thread title:

'The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion, by Nicholas Kollerstrom, Ph.D. '

In the main General Forum. 

There are quite a few holocaust deniers on there, but in the minority. If somebody is bored or thinks its worth while and has a better grasp of the facts than me... probably the majority would think they're all bonkers anyway.

Just go to community forum on the top left of this page:

http://prisonplanet.tv/

Don't worry mods I won't link back here.


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2008)

butchersapron said:


> Just read that Cohen piece. Talk about missing an open goal. That's what happens when you lose your political persepective and get a bit obssessed though.



Hes one of those people who get so disillusioned about stuff that's wrong with the left that they cross right over to the "dark side".


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Somebody on the prisonplanet forum has just posted the Nick Kollerstrom article via Rense.com.
> 
> Thread title:
> 
> ...



they look in their referrer logs though.

as for rense lol, any suggestion that alex jones and co arent anti-semitic falls down at their association with this cunt. It's not hard to find stuff like "in defence of hitler" and "the poisioned mushroom" on that site with a few clicks. not to mention "scientific" studied about how white people are more intelligent than black people, mexicans are going to take over the usa, and how smoking is actually beneficial for your health.


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2008)

as for there being a gas chamber illusuon, is that like the accepted historical record, that ibm never did anything wrong in the war, anthony eden and co were perfectly right not to let jews into britain during the war, only thirty thousand or so jews died in total, no plan for the mass extermination of jews - so no scandal that companies in various countries got rich from exporting things like zyklon b, or that the allies claimed not to know anything about it... and he certainly never laid a finger on anyone else who now ungratefully complains - like gypsies and communists - and that all the nazi scientists and politicians who went to the US and South America were really political dissidents fleeing persecution by communism? 

hitler was a wonderful man really and we should have just listened to him, forget about all this anti-fascist sillyness, just smear anyone who actually stood up to it as pro-western, pro-communist shills trying to undermine the thousand year reich. 

there's only one group of people tactily supporting myths about the historical record of WWII useful to the political elite and it isn't people who "believe" (LOL) in the holocaust ...


----------



## frogwoman (May 12, 2008)

ViolentPanda said:


> He made a point, around the time of the Iraq war IIRC, of writing that he wasn't a Jew, in order that he didn't keep getting nutty e-mails for his support of the Iraq war accusing him of being an elder of Zion.



probably didn't stop the emails about him being a sell out cunt though ...


----------



## arnold palmer (May 18, 2008)

Kollerstrom is at it again.

http://forum. codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4332
http://forum. codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4872&start=15
http://forum. codoh.com/viewtopic.php?t=4933

The fucking prick.

<links broken - FM>


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 18, 2008)

Please can you break those links?

Please - the last thing urban needs is a contingent of holocaust-denying conspiraloons descending


----------



## Paul Marsh (May 18, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Please - the last thing urban needs is a contingent of holocaust-denying conspiraloons descending



Not when they should be confined to 9/11 'truth' sites, no!


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## Badger Kitten (May 18, 2008)

edit: cheers


----------



## arnold palmer (May 18, 2008)

Oh, sorry.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2008)

*In today's sub-standard*

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...olocaust+denier+claims+in+BBC+film/article.do



> _Dr Kollerstrom was last month stripped of an honorary research fellowship at University College London *after it emerged* he had written a paper entitled The Auschwitz "Gas Chamber" Illusion on a far-Right website - claiming it was like a holiday camp where inmates sunned themselves by an "elegant" swimming pool and listened to orchestras._



Good work folks.


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2008)

What a disgusting, despicable cunt.


> He has admitted he phoned the father of one victim to tell him how he believed the man's daughter's body had been planted at the site of the Tavistock Square bus bombing. The victim's family has described the phone call and subsequent claims posted on a website as "very upsetting".
> 
> He has also been accused of pestering relatives of victims and survivors of 7/7...
> 
> ...


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2008)

editor said:


> What a disgusting, despicable cunt.



Yeah 

It's one thing throwing around fanciful ideas but completely off-the-scale to contact grieving family members to make strange claims about their dead relative.


----------



## elbows (Jun 11, 2008)

Its a real tragedy that trying to keep an openmind, and engage in a bit of institutional analysis, is made so difficult by the nature of these conspiraloons.

I mean I know people who are understandably cynical about how the world works, but they seek oversimplified solutions and often have no idea about the right-wing anti-semitic prejudices that many of the high-profile conspiracy theorists hold.

Im all for healthy skepticism, but there is too much unbalanced join-all-the-dots mentality around, especially on the internets. 

Personally Id rather leave questions unanswered in my mind than try to fill in all the gaps with easy explanations that do nothing to help. And holocaust deniers make me feel physically ill. 

Im really not looking forward to many of the popular theories that will emerge once the energy crisis starts to infict bad pain on the masses. Who will fall victim to their lazy thinking next?


----------



## KeyboardJockey (Jun 11, 2008)

editor said:


> What a disgusting, despicable cunt.



I'd go so far as to say that comparing this holocaust denying scum to a beautiful  piece of a womans anatomy is an insult to cunts to be honest. 

At least people now know what he looks like.    So he can be avoided by all decent people.  

Its one thing to be a fruitloop conspiraloon but it goes beyond the pale to hassle the victims of 7/7.

Also, fair play to the Jewish Chronicle for giving him space in the letters pages so that he can hang himself with his own rope.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2008)

elbows said:


> Im all for healthy skepticism, but there is too much unbalanced join-all-the-dots mentality around, especially on the internets.



I've always been sceptical about 9/11. I stopped debating it years ago though because it's a merry-go-round to nowhere. Obviously some folk who take it as a serious hobby aren't doing themselves or the truth seeking movement any favours by harassing genuine victims with their fanciful theories.

And then, scratch the surface a little and you arrive at holocaust denial and all the political connotations that comes strapped to it.

I mean Auschwitz; _"it was like a holiday camp where inmates sunned themselves by an "elegant" swimming pool and listened to orchestras."_



Yeah, and the SS officers wandered round all day in tiaras serving margaritas off a silver platter to all those lucky folk who were sent there.

Where were the Lizards when all this was happening? Did they approve?











The moon _is_ made of cheese though and the cameraman was the first guy to taste it.


----------



## elbows (Jun 11, 2008)

Yeah I suppose I shouldnt be too surprised that movements that go looking for truth will probably not find it, and probably dont want to unless it fits into their existing views.

And then we lose even more because its now so easy for people to dismiss things as the rantings of conspiracy theorists. And again people's existing beliefs define who and what theories are to be decried and ridiculed in such a way, and which ones are actually 'the truth'.

And then there is the amusing conspiracy theory that some of the conspiracy theorists are disinformation agents.

Oh well, I gues the quest for absolute truth has always been a frustrating and perhaps impossible dream. Joinging all the dots is such a shame, as some of the dots are probably true, but joining them all together is false pattern recognition and leads to horrifying conclusions.

I mean occasionally along with all the non-evidence there is some interesting stuff, but I seldom ever agree with the conclusions of the prominent theorists. And if only they would talk more about what they think should be done about the wrongs they have uncovered, it would be a lot simpler to spot where they were on the political compass. I dread to think how many people in the UK who are disenchanted with the state, are hoovering up propaganda from certain far-right US ideologies. The world government made my tongue change color! The New World Order burnt my toast!

Still I suppose things werent so very different before the net, and before the conspiracy theory term, back when it was simply rumors.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2008)

elbows said:


> Yeah I suppose I shouldnt be too surprised that movements that go looking for truth will probably not find it, and probably dont want to unless it fits into their existing views.
> 
> And then we lose even more because its now so easy for people to dismiss things as the rantings of conspiracy theorists. And again people's existing beliefs define who and what theories are to be decried and ridiculed in such a way, and which ones are actually 'the truth'.
> 
> And then there is the amusing conspiracy theory that some of the conspiracy theorists are disinformation agents.



I have turned into a bit of a truth seeker about the truth seekers to be honest though! 

I'm still unconvinced that the most protected air-space in the modern world in, arguably, the only existing super-power could have had the piss taken out it like that.

When Russia send their bombers over towards the UKs airspace so a friendly chap on the ground can survey reaction times the RAF aren't busy in the mess-room supping tea and playing dominoes. They're out of there like a shot and tail the rotters before they do a U-turn once the exercise is over.

It wouldn't surprise me if David Icke was a CIA funded Jesus Christ, who has been sent from the heavens to take any form of questioning to the extreme so it can be easily dismissed by the masses.

I think the original Jesus was here to make people chortle at religion too. That had an unfortunate side-effect, though.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 11, 2008)

Top posts citizen


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> Top posts citizen



Cheers 

*wanders off to read froggy's book*


----------



## EddyBlack (Jun 11, 2008)

Citizen66 said:


> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...olocaust+denier+claims+in+BBC+film/article.do
> 
> 
> 
> Good work folks.



There was a story in todays Daily Express too. 'Families' fury as BBC film claims 7/7 was MI5 plot'.

'... Holocaust denier Nick Kollerstrom was paid expenses for airing his views for a documentary.

... Last month University College London stripped Kollerstrom of an honorary research fellowship after it was discovered that he had written a paper entitled The Auschwitz 'Gas Chamber' Illusion on a website, claiming it had been a holiday camp.'


----------



## Blagsta (Jun 11, 2008)

Where's Jazzz when you need him?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 11, 2008)

Blagsta said:


> Where's Jazzz when you need him?



He's been rather notable by his absance for most of this thread


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jun 12, 2008)

BTW, that article is inaccurate beeb-bashing. He got £30 expenses after 3 months filming, no fee ( nobody in doc was paid) and 
the BBC didn't know he was a holocaust loon til after they started filming, when he was outed by Blairwatch, The Void, Rachel from North London and Ministry of Truth blogs and urban 75.

Loonboards go into dissarray.

UCL immediately alerted by bloggers and urbanites. UCL move at warp speed.

UCL's actions reprted by bloggers, reactivating story. Harry's Place and Liberal Conspiracy,  Then Jewcy blog via Mr Eugenides blog, then picked up by the Jewish Chronicle, then Nick Cohen in The Observer

Loonboards split and go into meltdown

then the Standard, Mail, Telegraph, Express run with story as do London freesheets


next stage?

*waits for the documentary in Sept*

Chortles

fuck you, Kollerstrom

Heh heh heh


----------



## Badger Kitten (Jun 12, 2008)

the beeb speaketh


----------



## chazegee (Jun 17, 2008)

Word Citizen, I'm getting a bit loony in my old age too.
I'm sure it's been said on this thread before, but I'm sure the powers that be would have an active interest in giving publicity to the looniest of conspiraloons, thus totally discrediting all of the more rational ones. No?


----------



## EddyBlack (Jun 21, 2008)

Prisonplanet has ordered an internet fatwah against the blog of the maker of the upcoming 7/7 truth documentary.

BBC Set To Launch New Smear Attack On 9/11 Truth

I really just wanted to make a comment about the allegation that was made of these guys being racist earlier (linking to Dragonslayer for one).

One of the articles they linked to today was this:

How the EU is attacking and destroying Great Britain from within

See 'Race':

'Methods Employed

Mixing of races, elevation of racism to Hitlerarian level, promotion of diversity, degradation of breeding, 'genetics' vs. environment debate.

Intended Results

Enfeebled British masses.'

Wtf that is all about I've no idea, but clearly it has racist overtones. No doubt those dastardly Jews are behind it again, mixing up our race and enfeebling us.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Prisonplanet has ordered an internet fatwah against the blog of the maker of the upcoming 7/7 truth documentary.
> 
> BBC Set To Launch New Smear Attack On 9/11 Truth
> 
> ...



No surprises there. 

Ive always been a bit of a 9/11 sceptic myself but these people are just cunts, their theories are outlandish (holographic planes ffs), they have links to christian fundamentalists (and worse) they themsleves are a bunch of nutters ... and do more to disdcredit anyone trying to independently investigate 9/11 and even protest against things like civil liberties, etc ...


----------



## ymu (Jun 21, 2008)

Eddy, Froggy - please edit those posts to remove the direct links.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2008)

done


----------



## EddyBlack (Jun 21, 2008)

Why? Will they organise their stormtroopers to come and smash urban up? Seriously why the caution?


----------



## ymu (Jun 21, 2008)

EddyBlack said:


> Why? Will they organise their stormtroopers to come and smash urban up? Seriously why the caution?


Careless links cost lives!! 

If folk click that link, PP know there's traffic coming from here. If they want to investigate, they can - very easily. And they're threatening to take out some guys blog. Also see FAQ on board wars (and how not to start them).

Bit of common sense, is all.


----------



## ymu (Jun 21, 2008)

frogwoman said:


> done


Not done.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2008)

the european union is destroying british society!


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2008)

ymu said:


> Not done.



click on them and try the links, they dont work  or are you talking about eddy?  xx


----------



## ymu (Jun 21, 2008)

Ahhhh ... I wasn't gonna click any of them to check!


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 21, 2008)

oh ok. 

if you want a summary - the eu is the source of all the evils in the world 

apart from the evils caused by the jews, of course


----------



## Citizen66 (Jun 22, 2008)

chazegee said:


> Word Citizen, I'm getting a bit loony in my old age too.
> I'm sure it's been said on this thread before, but I'm sure the powers that be would have an active interest in giving publicity to the looniest of conspiraloons, thus totally discrediting all of the more rational ones. No?



Well, quite. The poster boy for the 'truth' movement believes the Royal family are lizards ffs 

Now anyone else even remotely sceptical about the official narrative can all be lumped together with him and dismissed as mentally ill.


----------



## smokedout (Oct 24, 2008)

Daily Telegraph Plugs Holocaust Denier!


----------



## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm _really_ sorry I didn't mean to bump this. I was examining info for another post.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2013)

Great stuff sihhi, but Jazzz will be along soon to accuse you of "waffle", his usual response to any post he doesn't agree with that's over 4 lines long


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Great stuff sihhi, but Jazzz will be along soon to accuse you of "waffle", his usual response to any post he doesn't agree with that's over 4 words long


*corrected for you*


----------



## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Great stuff sihhi, but Jazzz will be along soon to accuse you of "waffle", his usual response to any post he doesn't agree with that's over 4 lines long


 
The burden must be on Jazzz to explain why Kollestrom's fascinating chemistry about camp facilities (which solidly gives great weight to the argument that no Jews at all were exposed to poison gas) is all wrong.

http://inconvenienthistory.com/arch...exposure_of_brickwork_to_hydrogen_cyanide.php




> We hope that a replication of the results of both types of analytical methods can be performed by reliably measuring both the permanent and soluble cyanide contents in samples taken from all locations of interest. This should be conducted in a country where the expression of doubt is not a crime. As for example Karl Popper argued, doubt is inherent in the scientific method,37 and the necessary calm debate needed for resolving this emotive issue cannot be reached unless doubt is permitted. For this reason we would like to see a UK or US investigation, even though the phenomenon pertains to central Europe.


 


> Considering that the methods used by Leuchter and Rudolf were not designed for solid samples and are known to be prone to inaccuracies, especially in the presence of large amounts of carbonates as was the case in some (Leuchter), if not most (Rudolf) of their samples, it is first necessary to establish a method which can detect total cyanide with reliability and accuracy in such solid, high-carbonate samples before any definite conclusion can be drawn from any analytical results.


 
All right-thinking people must declare re-investigate Auschwitz re-open scientific analysis of the Holocaust.



> Ideally we would like to see a virtual reality reconstruction of the several chambers and walls here discussed, showing where old, “genuine” brickwork is located and the various points of sampling to-date, whereby different groups could debate and agree upon where any further sampling should be conducted.


 
New samples must be taken to rid the old ones of carbonate impurities.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 28, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The burden must be on Jazzz to explain why Kollestrom's fascinating chemistry about camp facilities (which solidly gives great weight to the argument that no Jews at all were exposed to poison gas) is all wrong


To be fair it sounds like Jazzz is (sort of) distancing himself from Kollerstrom. I'd like to see him state his reasons for doing so.


----------



## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> To be fair it sounds like Jazzz is (sort of) distancing himself from Kollerstrom. I'd like to see him state his reasons for doing so.


 
He's distanced himself from Kollerstrom specifically to ally himself with Harrit - both use chemistry to pick away at irrelevancies in the 9-11 investigation. Kollestrom agrees with Jazzz entirely but simply seeks the truth better and hence uses the same practice upon the Holocaust.

David Icke is broadly in favour of Kollestrom's truth-seeking or should be if he still believes chapter 7 of his magnum opus And the Truth Shall Set You Free:

"I strongly believe that a small Jewish clique which has contempt for the mass of Jewish people worked with non-Jews to create the First World War, the Russian Revolution, and the Second World War. This Jewish/non-Jewish Elite used the First World War to secure the Balfour Declaration and the principle of the Jewish State of Israel in Palestine (for which, given the genetic history of most Jewish people, there is absolutely no justification on historical grounds or any other).

They then dominated the Versailles Peace Conference and created the circumstances which made the Second World War inevitable. They financed Hitler to power in 1933 and made the funds available for his rearmament. Their representatives in other nations manipulated their governments to allow Hitler and the Nazis to invade surrounding countries and increase their military power and potential by acquiring the resources of those countries. They gave Hitler the impression that he could expand across mainland Europe without challenge, but then, at a prearranged time, the attitude of Britain changed dramatically and he found himself in a war he could not win - especially after Roosevelt manipulated the American people, via Pearl Harbor, into a conflict he said they would never be involved in.

Meanwhile, those Jews in Germany who were part of, or useful to, this tiny Jewish/non-Jewish Elite were allowed to leave the Nazi-occupied lands and escape to the USA, other safe countries, and to Palestine to begin the work that would culminate in the creation of Israel after the war. They were not the ones who were to suffer so terribly under Hitler. Far from it. They were the ones who were going to use and exploit the suffering of those left behind. When the privileged elite, like the banker Max Warburg, had left Germany, the Jewish men, women, and children considered expendable in pursuit of a wider goal were left to their fate. That fate was sealed when Alfred Rosenberg with his Jewish background, made a copy of The Protocols Of The Learned Elders Of Zion available to Hitler. So what could possibly motivate this manipulating Jewish clique to treat their fellow Jews in such a subhuman way?

Quite simply, the manipulators are not really Jews, as Rabbi Marvin S. Antelman points out in his 1974 book, To Eliminate The Opiate. Antelman, who lost seventeen members of his family to the Nazis, says that this clique does not want to promote Judaism, it wants to destroy it, as it wants to destroy all alternatives to its own focus of worship, the All-Seeing Eye cult of antiquity. It is this which provides the common themes of loyalty and motivation between the Jews, Arabs, British, Germans, Americans etc, who are knowingly working together to bring about the global fascist tyranny known as the New World Order.

The ‘Jews’ of the Global Elite could not give a damn about Jewish people, as the Germans in the clique could not care less about the German people. To them, the masses of whatever race, colour, or country, are a herd of nonentities who are there to be used only as necessary to serve their master - the Luciferic Consciousness on the Fourth Dimension. The ‘All Seeing’ Jews, however, and their non-Jewish conspirators, use the smokescreen of ‘anti-Semitism’ and the genuine suffering of real Jews to prevent investigation of their sinister activities. I am convinced that it was this clique which wrote and leaked the Protocols and made it look like a plot by Jewish people as a whole. It is not. No, no, no!

After the war, the unimaginable suffering of Jewish people, condemned by their own elite, among others, was used to bring the State of Israel into being on a wave of understandable emotion,* given the stories the world was being told*. It has been used ever since to block *legitimate investigation into the manipulation of the human race.* The *label ‘anti-Semite’ is hurled at anyone who challenges the official version of history and who exposes the people who really control the world.* One vehicle for this Jewish and non-Jewish clique - which has made Jews suffer so much - is called Zionism and so is the State of Israel, a country and a ruling mindset, which to me looks remarkably like the Nazi mentality."







Kollestrom is merely trying to uncover and unpack the post-liberation "stories" concocted by the US, Soviet Union and various Zionist Federation.


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## two sheds (Feb 28, 2013)

They are again on a win-win. If no 'further tests' are done it shows there's a high-level coverup. If further tests are done it shows that people high up don't believe the holocaust stories enough to have tests done so backing up the conspiracy cause. When the traces are found we'll be back to a high-level coverup because they 'salted the mine'.

There is no way you can win an argument against these people, you can only try to demonstrate to people who might listen to them that it's a load of bollocks.


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## sihhi (Feb 28, 2013)

two sheds said:


> They are again on a win-win. If no 'further tests' are done it shows there's a high-level coverup. If further tests are done it shows that people high up don't believe the holocaust stories enough to have tests done so backing up the conspiracy cause. When the traces are found we'll be back to a high-level coverup because they 'salted the mine'.


 
Exactly. When traces are found in lower concentration compared to 1947 it will be a cause to junk the 1947 data and accept only the 2013 data, which can mean there was only accidental seepage of poison gases or simply for fumigation and the disinfection and de-lousing of camp cleaning and washing facilities, not a planned release for any negative purpose.

The only other way is to examine _their_ financial and political interests and expose _them_ as active conspirators and conspiracists, which 99% of the time they are.


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## DotCommunist (Feb 28, 2013)

two sheds said:


> They are again on a win-win. If no 'further tests' are done it shows there's a high-level coverup. If further tests are done it shows that people high up don't believe the holocaust stories enough to have tests done so backing up the conspiracy cause. When the traces are found we'll be back to a high-level coverup because they 'salted the mine'.
> 
> There is no way you can win an argument against these people, you can only try to demonstrate to people who might listen to them that it's a load of bollocks.


 
so how do they explain all the missing people, the ariel photography and the immense mass of cross corroborating oral and written evidence from multiple parties, people, etc?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

they say the jews made it up. and the people saying that it happened were either lying (if they were jews) or they were tortured (if they were fash)


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## binka (Feb 28, 2013)

with this bump perhaps now would be a good time for Jazzz to revisit his below posts 5 years later:



Jazzz said:


> I think if we are concerned with holocausts repeating themselves, I'll feel free to point out where I think the danger lies, and where it doesn't.





Jazzz said:


> The camps have been springing up all over the US. 600 of them!
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Jazzz said:


> Funny how everyone so sure they have right on their side with regard to preventing holocausts happening again seem to ignore -
> 
> 
> 
> ...




so im guessing those six hundred camps must be getting pretty full by now Jazzz?


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## frogwoman (Feb 28, 2013)

to be fair i was posting all sorts of crap 5 years ago,


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2013)

Nick Kollerstrom - who much of the UK truth/conspiracy activity todaystill revolves around - has just set up this new holocaust denial site:

http://wwwDOTwhatreallyhappenedDOTinfo/.

It went live last month but they registered the domain nearly 20 years ago.


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## JimW (Aug 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Nick Kollerstrom - who much of the UK truth/conspiracy activity todaystill revolves around - has just set up this new holocaust denial site:
> 
> http://wwwDOTwhatreallyhappenedDOTinfo/.
> 
> It went live last month but they registered the domain nearly 20 years ago.


 
Can that be right mate? Was sure .info domains weren't that old and on a check says they were introduced in 2001: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.info


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2013)

That's what this says. This says last year. It's quite likely that i'm reading the info wrong or entered the wrong info...


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## JimW (Aug 25, 2013)

Although sort of suits their game always think .info ones are the sort of thing you go for when the name you want is already taken in the better-known TLDs


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## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Nick Kollerstrom - who much of the UK truth/conspiracy activity todaystill revolves around - has just set up this new holocaust denial site:
> 
> http://wwwDOTwhatreallyhappenedDOTinfo/.
> 
> It went live last month but they registered the domain nearly 20 years ago.


 
hasn't that "what really happened" website always been a dodgy one tho?or was the original shut down and new one started up?

by the way what do people think of information clearing house and william bowles? there was always something dodgy I thought ...


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2013)

I thought it was a new site. All the other whois tools have it registered at the end of last year (no idea why the other one says different).


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## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2013)

it might have been a different thing


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## inva (Aug 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I thought it was a new site. All the other whois tools have it registered at the end of last year (no idea why the other one says different).


archive.org shows it as only having been crawled this year too (the earliest is March).


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## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2013)

wwwDOTwhatreallyhappenedDOTcom might be the one I'm thinking


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## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2013)

inva said:


> archive.org shows it as only having been crawled this year too (the earliest is March).


Cheers.


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## frogwoman (Aug 25, 2013)

oh god there are two:

http://www.whatreallyhappeneddotinfo - the holocaust denial one
http://www.whatreallyhappeneddotcom - 9/11 loonery


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## elbows (Aug 25, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That's what this says. This says last year. It's quite likely that i'm reading the info wrong or entered the wrong info...


 

Your first link is giving wrong info because it got confused by the http bit at the start of the url, and as a result its actually showing information about http.com.

.info addresses only came into existence around the year 2000.


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## frogwoman (Aug 26, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The burden must be on Jazzz to explain why Kollestrom's fascinating chemistry about camp facilities (which solidly gives great weight to the argument that no Jews at all were exposed to poison gas) is all wrong.
> 
> http://inconvenienthistory.com/arch...exposure_of_brickwork_to_hydrogen_cyanide.php
> 
> ...


 
seriously, thousands of people using food banks, unemployment and precarious work higher than it was in the 1980s, wages lower than they were during the same period and being thrown destitute out onto the streets, but yet they're going on about "reinvestigating" 70+ year old events that have been proved beyond all doubt

carbonate impurities indeed, what kind of creepy fucker do you have to be to believe this shit

there's something wrong with them


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## Meh O'Naise (Aug 26, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> seriously, thousands of people using food banks, unemployment and precarious work higher than it was in the 1980s, wages lower than they were during the same period and being thrown destitute out onto the streets, but yet they're going on about "reinvestigating" 70+ year old events that have been proved beyond all doubt


 
I pretty much same the said on the icke thread ages ago. People are getting caught up in the minutae of stuff that happened before they were born and is pretty much concretely proven - and in the meantime, the state stops us at airports, steals our posessions, and there were are, distracted by a sideshow. People who do this have politically themselves, silencing their own voices by this.


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## frogwoman (Aug 26, 2013)

Meh O'Naise said:


> I pretty much same the said on the icke thread ages ago. People are getting caught up in the minutae of stuff that happened before they were born and is pretty much concretely proven - and in the meantime, the state stops us at airports, steals our posessions, and there were are, distracted by a sideshow. People who do this have politically themselves, silencing their own voices by this.


 

I wouldn't care if they were only silencing their own voices


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## frogwoman (Aug 26, 2013)

Meh O'Naise said:


> I pretty much same the said on the icke thread ages ago. People are getting caught up in the minutae of stuff that happened before they were born and is pretty much concretely proven - and in the meantime, the state stops us at airports, steals our posessions, and there were are, distracted by a sideshow. People who do this have politically themselves, silencing their own voices by this.


 

some do, but a lot are ideologically committed to those positions and don't see it like that at all.

nobody gets anywhere holocaust denial without being an ideological anti-semite, there are plenty of people who may initially believe the 9/11 conspiracy stuff then stop well short of this or when it starts getting to this stuff walk away from it/start questioning it


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## scalyboy (Jul 7, 2014)

Stay classy, 7/7 conspiraloons


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## Belushi (Jul 7, 2014)

Twats.  I was just thinking about 7/7 and looking at this thread 

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ts-updates-and-news-only-no-discussion.50349/


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## likesfish (Jul 7, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I have turned into a bit of a truth seeker about the truth seekers to be honest though!
> 
> I'm still unconvinced that the most protected air-space in the modern world in, arguably, the only existing super-power could have had the piss taken out it like that.
> 
> ...



They were internal civillian flights  pretty difficult to order the murder of several hundred people on the off chance it was a suicide attack .
 Probably by the time the first plane hit the rest were en route over citys so not really saving anyone


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## treelover (Jul 7, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> Stay classy, 7/7 conspiraloons



Sickening,


btw, interesting to read how a number of the victims are trying to make sense of the murders by involving themselves in peace/conflict resolution, etc.


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## Voley (Jul 7, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> Stay classy, 7/7 conspiraloons


Jesus, these people are fucking unreal.


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## Citizen66 (Jul 7, 2014)

Nine years ago today. Doesn't seem that long.


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## scalyboy (Jul 7, 2014)

Voley said:


> Jesus, these people are fucking unreal.


I'm sorely tempted to post that link on to the David Icke forum along with the message "ARE YOU F--ING PROUD OF YOURSELVES?" 

But no doubt they would explain to me how it was agents of the State who were really responsible for the graffiti, so as to discredit truthseekers


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 7, 2014)

All conspiracies seem to point to anti semitism


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## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> All conspiracies seem to point to anti semitism


coulson as an exception


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## scalyboy (Jul 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> All conspiracies seem to point to anti semitism


No they don't. e.g. JFK assassination theories.


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## SpineyNorman (Jul 7, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> No they don't. e.g. JFK assassination theories.



The macro-conspiracy theories - in which 9/11 and 7/7 stuff is almost always embedded and very often JFK stuff as well - all do though. Shockingly enough wells is basically right on this.


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## editor (Jul 8, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> Stay classy, 7/7 conspiraloons


Sick, thick scum.


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## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2014)

SpineyNorman said:


> The macro-conspiracy theories - in which 9/11 and 7/7 stuff is almost always embedded and very often JFK stuff as well - all do though. Shockingly enough wells is basically right on this.


Sure, those all-encompassing Illuminati-Zionist-LIzard Icke tendency conspiracy theories do - but that's kind of tautological: a_ll conspiracy theories with a Zionist / Illuminati / World Govt underpinning are antisemitic_. Well, yes.

What I was trying to imply is that we need terminology that differentiates between the type of Mafia/CIA/Cuban-exiles-killed-JFK theories, and the lunatic Icke Illuminati lizard ones. Your term "macro-conspiracy theories" is good enough for me. 
But that's not what Awesome Wells said.


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## Awesome Wells (Jul 8, 2014)

I get depressed when elements on the left, whose politics i'm much more sympathetic to otherwise, endorse this nonsense. But people do these days because they are disenfranchised and see the hand of power as dark and controlling and thus conspiratorial. Consequently you have people like the shouty taxi bloke talking sense about the war machine and then without skipping a beat referring to the queen as a centaur and interviewing Alex Jones ffs! Recently he had Luke Redowski (sp?) from some american truther group called We Are Change.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jul 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I get depressed when elements on the left, whose politics i'm much more sympathetic to otherwise, endorse this nonsense. But people do these days because they are disenfranchised and see the hand of power as dark and controlling and thus conspiratorial. Consequently you have people like the shouty taxi bloke talking sense about the war machine and then without skipping a beat referring to the queen as a centaur and interviewing Alex Jones ffs! Recently he had Luke Redowski (sp?) from some american truther group called We Are Change.



I wish that taxi bloke would fuck off now because he does way more harm than good for the reasons you mentioned.  His daily shouting act, and it is an act, is annoying enough as it is but when he does talk about a lot of things that do actually matter and that are actually happening he ruins it all by interviewing those type of people, he's even mentioned chemtrails ffs .  His comments section is absolutely packed with 'truthers,' agenda 21ers, climate change deniers and yes holocaust deniers too.


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## Citizen66 (Jul 8, 2014)

I like how Alex Jones thinks that Icke discredits the truther movement by banging on about the Queen being a lizard.  

Degrees of fruitloopery.


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## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I get depressed when elements on the left, whose politics i'm much more sympathetic to otherwise, endorse this nonsense. But people do these days because they are disenfranchised and see the hand of power as dark and controlling and thus conspiratorial. Consequently you have people like the shouty taxi bloke talking sense about the war machine and then without skipping a beat referring to the queen as a centaur and interviewing Alex Jones ffs! Recently he had Luke Redowski (sp?) from some american truther group called We Are Change.


IMHO the thing to remember about him is that he is the *Artist *Taxi Driver. His rants are a mixture of genuine rage at corruption, mockery of Icke-istas (hence the Queen as a centaur and having hooves, the Black Pope etc), and perhaps some self-mockery too? He is playing a role. Just IMHO. For all I know he might think Alex Jones to be 100% spot on


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## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I wish that taxi bloke would fuck off now because he does way more harm than good for the reasons you mentioned.  His daily shouting act, and it is an act, is annoying enough as it is but when he does talk about a lot of things that do actually matter and that are actually happening he ruins it all by interviewing those type of people, he's even mentioned chemtrails ffs .  His comments section is absolutely packed with 'truthers,' agenda 21ers, climate change deniers and yes holocaust deniers too.


Maybe he's a false flag himself, or a gatekeeper or whatever they call them?  You know, the ones who are State/MI5 operatives deliberately spouting lunacy to discredit the Movement. David Shayler is supposed to be one, Icke another. The former theory lacked crediblity for me since, if Shayler was still on MI5's books and in their pay, why then was he living on mates' sofas and in a barn?


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2014)

scalyboy said:


> Sure, those all-encompassing Illuminati-Zionist-LIzard Icke tendency conspiracy theories do - but that's kind of tautological: a_ll conspiracy theories with a Zionist / Illuminati / World Govt underpinning are antisemitic_. Well, yes.
> 
> What I was trying to imply is that we need terminology that differentiates between the type of Mafia/CIA/Cuban-exiles-killed-JFK theories, and the lunatic Icke Illuminati lizard ones. Your term "macro-conspiracy theories" is good enough for me.
> But that's not what Awesome Wells said.


Macro-conspiracy  implies that that sort of stuff is made of the same stuff as the micro-conspiracy stuff (the stuff we can all see is anti-semitic) but just operating on a larger scale, in fact, providing the conditions within which the micro stuff operates (ooh _occult m_acrocosm and microcosm operations!!) and so provides some sort of support, some justification for the anti-semitic stuff.


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## Nylock (Jul 8, 2014)

scalyboy said:
			
		

> Maybe he's a false flag himself, or a gatekeeper or whatever they call them?  You know, the ones who are State/MI5 operatives deliberately spouting lunacy to discredit the Movement. David Shayler is supposed to be one, Icke another. The former theory lacked crediblity for me since, if Shayler was still on MI5's books and in their pay, why then was he living on mates' sofas and in a barn?


To add authenticity to his story innit *taps nose*


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## scalyboy (Jul 8, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> there's something wrong with them


 YES


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