# RIP Sarah Everard, who went missing from Brixton in March 2021



## trashpony (Mar 5, 2021)

Sarah Everard: Police 'increasingly concerned' for Brixton woman Sarah Everard: Police 'increasingly concerned' for Brixton woman

sarah went missing on Wednesday evening around 9.30pm in clapham common but she lives in Brixton.


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## wiskey (Mar 6, 2021)

Clarance Avenue is a very long road, and Clapham Common is a very big space, I'm surprised they've not narrowed it down a bit publicly.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 6, 2021)

Bit of an odd comment - I'd say narrowing down the last location ping to one street is pretty precise? With the timings, route and locations that are public there's enough info for people to check dashcams and ring doorbells etc in the hope of some information.

Hopeing for some positive news soon - I dont know her but you cant help but feel for her family and friends.


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## girasol (Mar 6, 2021)

On one of the many posts I've seen someone said the had last located her phone (remotely, last ping location) at a specific location on her walk home. Can't remember where...


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## Argonia (Mar 6, 2021)

Fingers crossed


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## wiskey (Mar 6, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Bit of an odd comment - I'd say narrowing down the last location ping to one street is pretty precise?



Since I first read about it at 2am (and it just said Clapham Common and Clarence Ave (which is over half a mile long)) they have updated it to now say 

A205
Clarence Ave
New Park Rd
Cavendish Road
Brixton Hill
Brixton Water Lane

I hope they find her safe soon.


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## Manter (Mar 6, 2021)

wiskey said:


> Since I first read about it at 2am (and it just said Clapham Common and Clarence Ave (which is over half a mile long)) they have updated it to now say
> 
> A205
> Clarence Ave
> ...


Sniffer dogs out in the park and police searching bins today. Her poor family


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## ricbake (Mar 7, 2021)

Piic from the Sun. News and ink from elsewhere








						Police search for missing Sarah Everard continues 'at pace'
					

Police officers and volunteers continue to search in the hope of finding Sarah




					www.mylondon.news
				




Also this -   

Keiran Campbell ,  been missing since Weds


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 7, 2021)

I wonder if she was walking across the top of the common towards the buses to Brixton.....I don't like that bit with the trees at night

15mins on phone to partner....while walking? That puts her clear of the common maybe?


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## Winot (Mar 7, 2021)

Was it her partner she was visiting? Is there any evidence she left?


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 7, 2021)

Winot said:


> Was it her partner she was visiting? Is there any evidence she left?




She was visiting a pal and left via the back gate on the A205, believed to have head across the common


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## David Clapson (Mar 7, 2021)

These is what was wearing.  From Police share CCTV image of missing Sarah Everard who vanished while walking home to Brixton - Southwark News


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## xsunnysuex (Mar 7, 2021)

Don't know this lady. But I've been worrying about her all night. 😥


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## trashpony (Mar 7, 2021)

Winot said:


> Was it her partner she was visiting? Is there any evidence she left?


She called her partner after she left her friend's house. Her phone was triangulated on Clarence Avenue - not sure if wiskey's post is additional info about where she went or is just her assumed route home.


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## girasol (Mar 7, 2021)

Sarah Everard's family tell of 'desperation' as search continues
					

Sarah Everard, 33, went missing between Clapham Junction and Brixton on Wednesday evening. As police and search teams continue to look for clues, Sarah's family have said they are devastated.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 7, 2021)

Update - She got to Poynders Road









						Murder team takes over investigation of missing Sarah Everard
					

Fears are growing for Sarah Everard, 33, who was last seen on Wednesday evening




					www.standard.co.uk


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## editor (Mar 7, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Update - She got to Poynders Road
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is fucking heart-breaking.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 7, 2021)

editor said:


> This is fucking heart-breaking.



HAs to be more footage. looks like she kept to the main road...


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 7, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> HAs to be more footage. looks like she kept to the main road...


Thats what I keep thinking -  those are fairly busy roads and it wasn't very late...how can something like this happen? Its horrible.


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## Cat Fan (Mar 8, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> HAs to be more footage. looks like she kept to the main road...


Given that she was heading to Brixton Hill, it would have made sense to cut through at some point rather than walking all the way to the A205/A23 interchange.

If I was her I might have gone up Clarence Avenue. Hope the police have been checking that area out and the streets towards her house, because all the focus seems to have been on Clapham Common/S Circular so far.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 8, 2021)

Police have been going door to door and searching gardens/garages down those roads over the weekend, according ppl on Next Door app.


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## trashpony (Mar 8, 2021)

She was wearing such distinctive clothing, you'd think someone has her on a dashcam or cctv. Every bloody inch of London is supposedly filmed 24/7 and this poor woman has just vanished


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 8, 2021)

Gosh, she could /should have walked right past my place.


Walking through these parts, I often cut through the estates to get from Poynders Road to Brixton Hill. Lots of scope for disappearing in through there, lots of places that need to be checked, like the cupboards for the big bins, gaps between walls etc. What a miserable prospect.









						Sarah Everard: Police confirm last sighting of missing woman
					

Sarah Everard has been missing from south London since Wednesday evening.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






Detectives have urged people to check any dashcam or doorbell cameras for sightings of her, particularly along these roads:

The A205 South Circular around Clapham Common
Cavendish Road
New Park Road
Brixton Hill
Brixton Water Lane


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## Argonia (Mar 8, 2021)

My mate from university was in a band with Dave Tyack. Tyack went missing and was only found dead 2 years later. The family went through hell, I can't imagine what Sarah's family and friends are going through.






						Dave Tyack - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## girasol (Mar 9, 2021)

"The cordon extends along Poynders Road from Rodenhurst Road to Cavendish Road."  Very worrying for residents in the area too.  









						Block of flats cordoned off in south London amid search for Sarah Everard
					

Police officers searching for a missing woman in south London have put up a cordon outside a block of flats near to where she was last seen.




					www.wandsworthguardian.co.uk


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## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

There's been a development:


A serving Metropolitan police officer has been arrested in connection with the disappearance of Sarah Everard in south London.

The 33-year-old marketing executive went missing after leaving a friend’s house in Clapham at about 9pm on 3 March.

The Met said in a statement that officers had arrested a man at an address in Kent in connection with Everard’s disappearance.

“He has been taken into custody at a London police station where he remains,” the statement said.

A woman has also been arrested at the same location on suspicion of assisting an offender, and is also in custody at a London police station.









						Serving Met officer arrested over Sarah Everard disappearance
					

Woman also arrested at same address in Kent on suspicion of assisting an offender




					www.theguardian.com


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## xsunnysuex (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> There's been a development:
> 
> 
> A serving Metropolitan police officer has been arrested in connection with the disappearance of Sarah Everard in south London.
> ...


Lots of rumours on Facebook that a body has been found on Poynders Rd estate.  No idea if it's true. Being reported by many people that live there.
So hope it's not true.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

I’ve stayed up late this night because it’s so local

I’ve been seeing the posters on my street, sending my heart out.

I’m proper shocked by this.

This whole thing,

I walk these routes often. Through the estates to get from Poynders Road to Brixton Hill.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

xsunnysuex said:


> Lots of rumours on Facebook that a body has been found on Poynders Rd estate.  No idea if it's true. Being reported by many people that live there.
> So hope it's not true.




Oaklands estate.

Rumour,


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## xsunnysuex (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Oaklands estate.
> 
> Rumour,


I so hope it is just a rumour. Ohh this is horrible!


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

xsunnysuex said:


> I so hope it is just a rumour. Ohh this is horrible!




It’s Poynders Court that’s cordoned off.

That bit on the corner of Rodenhurst Road. That whole block


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## Winot (Mar 10, 2021)

They’ve arrested a police officer:









						Sarah Everard disappearance: House and woods in Kent searched
					

The search follows the arrests of a serving Met Police officer and a woman in Kent on Tuesday.



					www.bbc.com


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

And a woman who knows the PO.

FUcked up.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

It’s quieter here, which makes me think they’ve got it tied up now.

Cordon is smaller, fewer cops, just guardians /marshals.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> There's been a development:
> 
> 
> A serving Metropolitan police officer has been arrested in connection with the disappearance of Sarah Everard in south London.
> ...



I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.


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## Edie (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.


Really?


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## Geri (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.



It is relevant if the culture within the police force is one of disrespect and belittling of women.









						Police officers allowed to abuse with impunity in the ‘locker-room’ culture of UK forces, super-complaint reveals — Centre for Women's Justice
					

Centre for Women’s Justice will today submit a   super-complaint   to The Police Inspectorate highlighting systemic failures women are experiencing when reporting domestic abuse perpetrated by police officers and others employed by the police




					www.centreforwomensjustice.org.uk


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## Sue (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.


Wtf?


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## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.



What?  Of course it's relevant!  That's a bizarre thing to say.  And why is it more disturbing about the woman?  

Fucks sake.  I cant properly express how angry your post has made me.


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## Edie (Mar 10, 2021)

The woman accomplice is always more at fault


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## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

Edie said:


> The woman accomplice is always more at fault



Yes.  I'm fucking furious that this attitude is still around.


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## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

'A female'


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## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

God this is horrible. I hoped when I started this thread that she'd just had a bit of a row with her boyfriend or something.


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## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.


I think that part of the responsibility that should go with being in a position of trust, such as a police officer, is that they should be held to a *higher* standard of behaviour. With the resources available to police, the potential harm when one decides to act outside the normal range of behaviours is much greater.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think that part of the responsibility that should go with being in a position of trust, such as a police officer, is that they should be held to a *higher* standard of behaviour. With the resources available to police, the potential harm when one decides to act outside the normal range of behaviours is much greater.


Plus we all know what one rotten apple does to the others in the barrel


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

Edie said:


> The woman accomplice is always more at fault


Not at all. In this instance, it’s quite clear that the man has been arrested for the act, the woman for assisting him. However, when a man is committing  violent crimes against women and has assistance of a woman in doing so, it is always more disturbing.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> Not at all. In this instance, it’s quite clear that the man has been arrested for the act, the woman for assisting him. However, when a man is committing  violent crimes against women and has assistance of a woman in doing so, it is always more disturbing.


Carry on digging


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.



Oh you mean like the policemen who took pictures of 2 dead women at the murder scene and then circulated them via whats ap to colleagues and non-colleagues? Yep...just a random nutjob act.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> Not at all. In this instance, it’s quite clear that the man has been arrested for the act, the woman for assisting him. However, when a man is committing  violent crimes against women and has assistance of a woman in doing so, it is always more disturbing.



At this point you don't know what she's done and if she even knows she was 'assisting' in a murder. He might have simply asked her to say he was with her because x, y, z...none of which may have seemed too odd.


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## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I think Edie was being sarcastic


So do I


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

You are right I quoted the wrong post. Fixed.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.




Please unpack this for me Smick


In what way is his position as a policeman not relevant?

In what ways is it more disturbing that he was assisted by a woman?


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

"assisting an offender" can come about in so many ways it's impossible to guess at it without more detail.


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

Especially when the 'offender' carries a position of power over the general public.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Please unpack this for me Smick
> 
> 
> In what way is his position as a policeman not relevant?
> ...



If this arrested police officer is responsible for the death of a young woman, I would prefer to look to the people who have been diving in ponds, knocking on doors, scouring CCTV footage and who have arrested him as being typical of police officers rather than this man.

As for your second question, I think violent crimes, and I accept that it is still hasn't been confirmed that that is what has happened, are more shocking when assisted by another person in general. But when it is a man and woman working in unison, it is so much harder to disrupt. People will more likely trust a man and woman together than a man on his own. An alibi is more likely to be accepted when given by a romantic partner rather than by a friend. If you look at the most infamous serial killers in British history, it is likely to be Brady and Hindley and Fred and Rose West. When there is joint enterprise across gender, especially preying on people who are vulnerable either through how their life is going, their physical characteristics, or the piece of ground they happen to find themselves on, I find that more disturbing.


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## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> An alibi is more likely to be accepted when given by a romantic partner rather than by a friend.


really? that sounds like absolute bullshit to me.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I guess his occupation isn’t really relevant, anyone can be a nutjob, but the fact that a female has been assisting him is disturbing.




How about Maxine Carr and Ian Huntley.

He was a school caretaker. Was it irrelevant that a person who works in a position of trust with children turned out to be a child killer? And is Maxine Carr, who assisted him by covering his tracks, the more disturbing person in the picture because of her gender?


What about the Moors murderers. Are you saying that regardless of any other factor you find Myrah Hindley more disturbing than Ian Brady simply because one is a man and other a woman?

What about the Potts who killed their sleeping children with fire. Is she more disturbing to you than him, regardless of any factor other than her gender?



ETA
Posted this while you were posting that. I see that you do acually find women criminals more disturbing simply because they are women.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> If this arrested police officer is responsible for the death of a young woman, I would prefer to look to the people who have been diving in ponds, knocking on doors, scouring CCTV footage and who have arrested him as being typical of police officers rather than this man.


yeh cos obvs he'd be alone in killing someone  the best way to get away with murder is to be a cop and do it on duty


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> How about Maxine Carr and Ian Huntley.
> 
> He was a school caretaker. Was it irrelevant that a person who works in a position of trust with children turned out to be a child killer? And is Maxine Carr, who assisted him by covering his tracks, the more disturbing person in the picture because of her gender?
> 
> ...


She is not more disturbing than him, it was him who carried it out. But the fact that he has her supporting him in his crimes is much more disturbing than him doing it alone.

Of course I do not find Myra Hindley more disturbing than Ian Brady. But I think the fact that they have done this together, that one party has not told the other to see sense, makes their combined crimes more disturbing.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh cos obvs he'd be alone in killing someone  the best way to get away with murder is to be a cop and do it on duty


He wasn't on duty at the time.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> He wasn't on duty at the time.


and he's being questioned about se's disappearance.

And the cops who killed mark duggan, Ian tomlinson, harry stanley, diarmuid o'neill, smiley culture etc?


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> If this arrested police officer is responsible for the death of a young woman, I would *prefer to look to the people who have been diving in ponds, knocking on doors, scouring CCTV footage and who have arrested him as being typical of police officers rather than this man.*
> 
> As for your second question, I think violent crimes, and I accept that it is still hasn't been confirmed that that is what has happened, are more shocking when assisted by another person in general. But when it is a man and woman working in unison, it is so much harder to disrupt. People will more likely trust a man and woman together than a man on his own. An alibi is more likely to be accepted when given by a romantic partner rather than by a friend. If you look at the most infamous serial killers in British history, it is likely to be Brady and Hindley and Fred and Rose West. When there is joint enterprise across gender, especially preying on people who are vulnerable either through how their life is going, their physical characteristics, or the piece of ground they happen to find themselves on, I find that more disturbing.




That’s not what you said though is it : that he’s not a good representation of other coppers. You said “anyone can be a nut job” thus dismissing the relevance or significance of his position of trust and authority.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> As for your second question, I think violent crimes, and I accept that it is still hasn't been confirmed that that is what has happened, are mor But when it is a man and woman working in unison, it is so much harder to disrupt. People will more likely trust a man and woman together than a man on his own. An alibi is more likely to be accepted when given by a romantic partner rather than by a friend. If you look at the most infamous serial killers in British history, it is likely to be Brady and Hindley and Fred and Rose West. When there is joint enterprise across gender, especially preying on people who are vulnerable either through how their life is going, their physical characteristics, or the piece of ground they happen to find themselves on, *I find that more disturbing.*




Why though. Why do you find it more disturbing when a heinous crime is committed or enabled by a woman.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why though. Why do you find it more disturbing when a heinous crime is committed or enabled by a woman.


I do not find it more disturbing when a heinous crime is committed or enabled by a woman. I find it more disturbing when it is committed by a couple.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I do not find it more disturbing when a heinous crime is committed or enabled by a woman. I find it more disturbing when it is committed by a couple.


Yeh but you seem to have no solid basis for this peculiar view


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> She is not more disturbing than him, it was him who carried it out. But the fact that he has her supporting him in his crimes is much more disturbing than him doing it alone.
> 
> Of course I do not find Myra Hindley more disturbing than Ian Brady. But I think the fact that they have done this together, that one party has not told the other to see sense, makes their combined crimes more disturbing.




You’re still not explaining why you feel or think this way.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> I do not find it more disturbing when a heinous crime is committed or enabled by a woman. I find it more disturbing when it is committed by a couple.




If the couple were two men, is that less disturbing to you than if the couple is a man and a woman?


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> If the couple were two men, is that less disturbing to you than if the couple is a man and a woman?


Not if they are romantically linked.

Where you have two people committing violent crime together, it takes on a whole new dimension. It takes a very deranged person to do something so wicked. If they confess that to someone else, the normal response should be either to get them to do the right thing or inform on them. Two people together who can carry out, conceal, enable are much worse than someone doing it alone. When you add the dimension of being a couple, which usually leads to spending more time together, then I think it is more worrying.


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## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick , you think the fact that the possible offender is a copper is "irrelevant", but it's "disturbing" that he may have been helped by a woman.  

🤮


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> Not if they are romantically linked.
> 
> Where you have two people committing violent crime together, it takes on a whole new dimension. It takes a very deranged person to do something so wicked. If they confess that to someone else, the normal response should be either to get them to do the right thing or inform on them. Two people together who can carry out, conceal, enable are much worse than someone doing it alone. When you add the dimension of being a couple, which usually leads to spending more time together, then I think it is more worrying.




Even when the woman in the couple may have been groomed and coerced and controlled by the man who then went on to kill?


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Smick , you think the fact that the possible offender is a copper is "irrelevant", but it's "disturbing" that he may have been helped by a woman.
> 
> 🤮




Innit.


And they can’t seem to grasp how messed up this sounds.


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Even when the woman in the couple may have been groomed and coerced and controlled by the man who then went on to kill?


You don't find that disturbing when a woman has been groomed and coerced?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> Not if they are romantically linked.
> 
> Where you have two people committing violent crime together, it takes on a whole new dimension. It takes a very deranged person to do something so wicked. If they confess that to someone else, the normal response should be either to get them to do the right thing or inform on them. Two people together who can carry out, conceal, enable are much worse than someone doing it alone. When you add the dimension of being a couple, which usually leads to spending more time together, then I think it is more worrying.


If they're deranged they aren't responsible for their actions. You seem keen to exculpate yer man from blame for this while cherchez-ing la femme as the villain of the piece


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## Smick (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If they're deranged they aren't responsible for their actions. You seem keen to exculpate yer man from blame for this while cherchez-ing la femme as the villain of the piece


Not in the slightest! Go back to post #46 where I say exactly the opposite of that. All I have said is that her involvement makes the whole thing more disturbing.


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## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick that your instinctive response was the alleged accomplice's sex is more significant than the fact the suspect is a police officer (and your subsequent elaboration) suggests some pretty skewed thinking.  It might be worth thinking through that (without getting defensive).


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## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

We have no idea of the extent of the woman's involvement. It's pointless speculation. 

Rutita1 - I've deleted my post where I quoted yours


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> Not in the slightest! Go back to post #46 where I say exactly the opposite of that. All I have said is that her involvement makes the whole thing more disturbing.


I don't know why you're veering all over the place on this one


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## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> We have no idea of the extent of the woman's involvement. It's pointless speculation.
> 
> Rutita1 - I've deleted my post where I quoted yours



Quite.  It could be anything from burying a body to washing blood out of his clothing that he'd told her was from a nosebleed!


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Smick said:


> You don't find that disturbing when a woman has been groomed and coerced?




Of course I do.
That’s the point.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Quite.  It could be anything from burying a body to washing blood out of his clothing that he'd told her was from a nosebleed!




We don’t know he’s done it either.


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## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> We don’t know he’s done it either.



Also true.


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## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't know why you're veering all over the place on this one


I do.


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## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> We don’t know he’s done it either.


We do however know he's a serving Met officer.


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## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

Update



> *A Metropolitan Police officer has been arrested over the disappearance of Sarah Everard in south London in a "serious and significant development".*
> Ms Everard, 33, was last seen in Clapham at about 21:30 GMT on 3 March.
> The man was arrested in Kent on Tuesday. Police said he had been off-duty when she went missing but added that the fact he was a serving officer was "shocking and deeply disturbing".
> A woman was also held on suspicion of assisting an offender.
> ...












						Sarah Everard disappearance: House and woods in Kent searched
					

The search follows the arrests of a serving Met Police officer and a woman in Kent on Tuesday.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I do.


I was trying to be kind


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## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

" fact he was a serving officer was "shocking and deeply disturbing". "


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## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> " fact he was a serving officer was "shocking and deeply disturbing". "


But not to smick, apparently


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## Sasaferrato (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Even when the woman in the couple may have been groomed and coerced and controlled by the man who then went on to kill?


Nail on head.


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## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

The police are searching farmland in Kent now.

This is awful. I really feel for all of you who live locally. Her family must be distraught.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

I wonder if he's done this sort of thing before, it's not like you go from 0 to murder in one easy step


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## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if he's done this sort of thing before, it's not like you go from 0 to murder in one easy step


He's been named by the S*n now so probably easy enough to find out.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if he's done this sort of thing before, it's not like you go from 0 to murder in one easy step


It will be interesting to see if he has any complaints issued against him and what kind of investigation was undertaken if he did.

It might make that statement of it being "shocking and deeply disturbing" fall flat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> It will be interesting to see if he has any complaints issued against him and what kind of investigation was undertaken if he did.
> 
> It might make that statement of it being "shocking and deeply disturbing" fall flat.


Yeh I think you're likely right


----------



## tim (Mar 10, 2021)

Daily Mail article, which also names him.

Serving officer, 48, arrested over Sarah Everard


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

He lives near me


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

tim said:


> Daily Mail article, which also names him.
> 
> Serving officer, 48, arrested over Sarah Everard



I thought the media weren't supposed to name people until they'd been charged?


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Mar 10, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I thought the media weren't supposed to name people until they'd been charged?


I thought that too. This is awful but what proof can there be yet that he is responsible?

ETA: I (possibly naively) thought this sort of thing had been stopped after the Christopher Jeffries business.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

baldrick said:


> The police are searching farmland in Kent now.
> 
> This is awful. I really feel for all of you who live locally. Her family must be distraught.


Just this really. i don't live locally there anymore but reckon that, if i still did, this thing would have got to me over this whole past week, as a walking about alone a lot woman. Just awful. wtf has happened exactly i hope it all comes out in full. Is she definitely dead then?


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 10, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I thought the media weren't supposed to name people until they'd been charged?



Papers like the Mail and Sun aren't too concerned with what's legal or ethical


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

I'm sure the press isn't motivated by any noble ideals, but the issue of naming suspects is tricky. Nobody would want an innocent person to go through the ordeal that teacher did when a woman was murdered a few years ago, but, on the other hand, often perpetrators of these sort of crimes have a history of offending that had escalated, and which only come to light after others are prompted to come forward when a suspect is named.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> I'm sure the press isn't motivated by any noble ideals, but the issue of naming suspects is tricky. Nobody would want an innocent person to go through the ordeal that teacher did when a woman was murdered a few years ago, but, on the other hand, often perpetrators of these sort of crimes have a history of offending that had escalated, and which only come to light after others are prompted to come forward when a suspect is named.


surely 'another innocent person', wouldn't want even a suspicion yer man was guilty to slip out


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)




----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I thought the media weren't supposed to name people until they'd been charged?


It's more than likely the source for the name is one of the suspect's fellow officers.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

His brother is also plod


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> His brother is also plod


i think we can rule him out as the leaker.


----------



## andysays (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i think we can rule him out as the leaker.


I don't think it would be appropriate to rule anything out at this early stage


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't think it would be appropriate to rule anything out at this early stage


perhaps you're right. while there may be honour among thieves there is none among cops


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

I was gonna say, I've known more honorable crooks than honorable cops....

One who turned over our house when I was kid (and was a cunt about it in the dead of night) later got drunk and and drove his car in to a tree. Dead.

It happens.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

I suspect they wouldn't have arrested him and removed two cars from his property unless they had pretty solid evidence. This is a huge operation









						'Human remains' found in Sarah Everard search - recap
					

A Met Police officer from Kent has been arrested after the 33-year-old went missing a week ago




					www.kentlive.news


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just this really. i don't live locally there anymore but reckon that, if i still did, this thing would have got to me over this whole past week, as a walking about alone a lot woman. Just awful. wtf has happened exactly i hope it all comes out in full. Is she definitely dead then?




I’ve been out to take my car for it’s MOT and walked back, stopped in to buy some groceries. Everyone is talking about it and everyone seems really quite shocked. Even round here where the OB don’t have much support, that’s the thing that’s making people raise their voice and wave their hands about, that it’s a cop.


Two different people said that the only explicable reason they could fathom for a copper to be involved in her assumed death was if it was as a sex game gone wrong. Otherwise it was just... and then they trailed off and shook their heads. Two separate people volunteered that, with all appropriate caveats about it being awful under any circumstsnces. I suppose because it seems really extreme for a copper to be responsible for an abduction and disappearance, possible murder. It says something that people are grasping for ways to make it explicable. (Although apparently for some, it makes no odds that it was a copper...)

As I said, I cut through those estates all the time and there are plenty of  places that aren’t covered by CCTV,. Even on a warm night with people out of doors and windows open, there are patches where you’re alone and unobservdd

If it was a regular route for her, was someone on the spy for her?

One bloke said that there was a lot of unusual rowdy activity on Wednesday night on the estate behind where they’ve blocked it off. That sounds like hindsight to me, and unlikely to be part of this story but maybe someone who was driving loops and breaking windows saw something.

A woman said that the Next Door app is saying that there is some kind of human trafficking angle, something about Dover. Again, that sounds unlikely to me. Chatter filling a vacuum. I guess it’s triggered by this Deal and Ashford connection. And maybe some kind of nasty “white slave trade” nonsense in the background.



Speaking just for myself, it made me wonder how long it would take for for me to be missed if I was abducted locally. I was up late thinking about Sarah and her family, finally went to bed and had horrible complicated anxiety dreams til I woke up early thinking about Sarah


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if he's done this sort of thing before, it's not like you go from 0 to murder in one easy step


I wouldn't want to make any assumptions. It is possible the perpetrator knew the woman, it might be some sort of jealousy, a robbery or rape that went even further. It's far to early for anyone to know what happened, how and by who.


----------



## Edie (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> I wouldn't want to make any assumptions. It is possible the perpetrator knew the woman, it might be some sort of jealousy, a robbery or rape that went even further. It's far to early for anyone to know what happened, how and by who.


Exactly. Speculation is a bit grubby.


----------



## marshall (Mar 10, 2021)

Is a confession involved, just wondering what led to the arrest?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

marshall said:


> Is a confession involved, just wondering what led to the arrest?


I don't imagine we'll know that until (if) it gets to court. And we might as well start getting into practice on not speculating, because that's certainly going to have to stop before it does get to court.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Mar 10, 2021)

Just fucking stop it people !!!

no one knows anything, people are posting links to the d@ily mail

just stop posting and stop speculating


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> Just fucking stop it people !!!
> 
> no one knows anything, people are posting links to the d@ily mail
> 
> just stop posting and stop speculating


speculating is what we do here. if you don't like speculation you're in the wrong place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

marshall said:


> Is a confession involved, just wondering what led to the arrest?


possibly being caught bang to rights


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I don't imagine we'll know that until (if) it gets to court. And we might as well start getting into practice on not speculating, because that's certainly going to have to stop before it does get to court.


it can continue via pm even after yer man is charged.


----------



## ricbake (Mar 10, 2021)

Police man with 10 years service, working in Westminster as a Fire Arms Officer, aged 48. Travels 85 miles each way between work and home.
Has a "chatty" wife and two kids, described by neighbours "just seemed like a normal, regular family, there was nothing strange about them at all."

He's off duty at 21:30 on a Wednesday evening still far from home and there is an attractive blonde women walking alone....

I hope the police are checking and rechecking all the psycological profiling and assessments they put him through to allow him to join their ranks and be in his position of authority wealding equipment designed to inflict death. Most people trust the police and believe the standards they are suposed to uphold as an institution are upheld by all their personel. I know in real life it's not like that, but it is what they should be striving for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

ricbake said:


> Police man with 10 years service, working in Westminster as a Fire Arms Officer, aged 48. Travels 85 miles each way between work and home.
> Has a "chatty" wife and two kids, described by neighbours "just seemed like a normal, regular family, there was nothing strange about them at all."
> 
> He's off duty at 21:30 on a Wednesday evening still far from home and there is an attractive blonde women walking alone....
> ...


it would be a step forwards if cops simply stopped killing people


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 10, 2021)

No body tends to point to no confession.

As for the woman who 'assisted him' there's every chance she's the one who has dobbed him in. Not too many people tend to know about murders. And he's been lifted quite quickly.


----------



## BusLanes (Mar 10, 2021)

He's been arrested now


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Just read that her family only learnt of the arrest from the media, nobody from the investigation called to tell them. Just .


----------



## BoxRoom (Mar 10, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> He's been arrested now


Hadn't he already been arrested?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just read that her family only learnt of the arrest from the media, nobody from the investigation called to tell them. Just .


that's the cops for you


----------



## miss direct (Mar 10, 2021)

Arrested for murder


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

BoxRoom said:


> Hadn't he already been arrested?


arrested for something last night, for murder today


----------



## BusLanes (Mar 10, 2021)

Sorry yes, arrested on suspicion of murder


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

Interesting thing about the senior cop's statement is that he didn't say what offence the suspect was arrested for.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Interesting thing about the senior cop's statement is that he didn't say what offence the suspect was arrested for.



I think that video was recorded pre the reports of the cop being arrested for murder.


----------



## Winot (Mar 10, 2021)

“The suspect had been initially arrested on suspicion of kidnap, and later murder. He is also being questioned about a separate allegation of indecent exposure.”









						Sarah Everard disappearance: Met officer arrested on suspicion of murder
					

Londoner Sarah Everard, 33, has not been seen since she disappeared in Clapham a week ago.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Winot (Mar 10, 2021)

Presumably “separate allegation” refers to another victim.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

This was published on Monday, it says that the police were telling women in Clapham & Brixton to not go out alone, to ‘be careful’.








						Women in Clapham 'told to not go out alone' after Sarah Everard disappearance
					

The Met has been knocking on doors in South London and women say they've been told to take care




					www.mylondon.news
				



That message (women, stay home don’t walk alone) is always infuriating but it looks different and much worse now it appears it was one of their colleagues that was responsible.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> This was published on Monday, it says that the police were telling women in Clapham & Brixton to not go out alone, to ‘be careful’.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yeah... this has creeped me out.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

What would stop women being raped, abducted and murdered is if men stayed in.


----------



## Thora (Mar 10, 2021)

Just feels relentless at the moment - men strangling their wives, men murdering women and their children, can't even walk home without a man wanting to kill you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> What would stop women being raped, abducted and murdered is if men stayed in.


i don't think it's entirely worked like that this past year


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Winot said:


> Presumably “separate allegation” refers to another victim.



Twitter is speculating about a series of sex pest incidents in Folkestone, the CCTV photos look rather like the suspect.




ETA
For the sake of truth and clarity..

So this other person in Folkestone who may or may not be the suspect.. that’s not sex pest stuff, it’s plain assault stuff.
And that’s how rumours get going. Some woman in the shop said that someone on NextDoor said that someone in folkestone....


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> What would stop women being raped, abducted and murdered is if men stayed in.


I wonder what the proportion is of men who would assault - or worse - women?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Twitter is speculating about a series of sex pest incidents in Folkestone, the CCTV photos look rather like the suspect.




From further down that thread Pickman's model linked to.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's entirely worked like that this past year


True. I nearly added that of course women are most at risk of harm from the men they live with  

It's depressing as fuck whichever way you look at it.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> What would stop women being raped, abducted and murdered is if men stayed in.


You might have seen this at the time, someone asked women what they’d do differently if there were a 9pm curfew for men. I found some of the replies really moving. Little article about it here:








						Women explain how their lives would improve if men had curfews
					

Activist Danielle Muscato asked women what they would do if all men had a 9pm curfew. The question comes amid ongoing sexual assault allegations against Brett Kavanaugh.




					www.dailydot.com


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> You might have seen this at the time, someone asked women what they’d do differently if there were a 9pm curfew for men. I found some of the replies really moving. Little article about it here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This idea (touted, incidentally, by a male-born fetish pornographer) has an obvious significant weakness: those men intent on causing harm could easily escape the curfew by claiming to identify as women.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Thanks for the tech support 
Pickman's model


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Those intent on causing harm could easily escape the curfew by claiming to identify as women.



 Please don’t 

Go elsewhere with this please.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Those intent on causing harm could easily escape the curfew by claiming to identify as women.


oh - i see it's time for another episode of the athos show


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> oh - i see it's time for another episode of the athos show


Nah, I've made my point; not something I want to pursue particularly.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> This idea (touted, incidentally, by a male-born fetish pornographer) has an obvious significant weakness: those men intent on causing harm could easily escape the curfew by claiming to identify as women.



That is rather a toxic can of worms.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is rather a toxic can of worms.




So why try to prise it open?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Nah, I've made my point; not something I want to pursue particularly.


not a point worth making tbh. so you'd be wise not pursue it


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

I have to say though... I did feel a huge letting go, a feeling of real relief when we heard that the suspect isn’t a local person.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I have to say though... I did feel a huge letting go, a feeling of real relief when we heard that the suspect isn’t a local person.


i suspect there are a lot of places he's done stuff where he hasn't been local, if the suspicions about folkestone are borne out (and i imagine there are other place too)


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> not a point worth making tbh. so you'd be wise not pursue it



Yes, whether or not you support sex-based protections for women, maybe this isn't the thread to pursue it. Happy to let it drop.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I wonder what the proportion is of men who would assault - or worse - women?


Probably (hopefully) very low.  But when ONE man is terrorising local women, ALL the women are advised to stay home.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i suspect there are a lot of places he's done stuff where he hasn't been local, if the suspicions about folkestone are borne out (and i imagine there are other place too)




Yes of course.
But from the perspective of the neighbourhood, it’s a relief to know it’s  not someone we know, one of our own.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I have to say though... I did feel a huge letting go, a feeling of real relief when we heard that the suspect isn’t a local person.


A "local" person has gone missing


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

Forgive me for some random rage.

Fuck this fucking copper pathetic shithead fucker


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> A "local" person has gone missing


no, it's a kentish local away from home while his colleagues question him


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> Forgive me for some random rage.
> 
> Fuck this fucking copper cunt.


ration your rage as there are so many many other cops who deserve your ire too


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> Forgive me for some random rage.
> 
> Fuck this fucking copper pathetic shithead fucker


Have they been charged with anything yet, have they had a trial yet. It's just tabloid gossip for the moment, is it not?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> So why try to prise it open?



Don't know. Really don't know.

It is a subject that has sparked a lot of discord previously.


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Have they been charged with anything yet, have they had a trial yet. It's just tabloid gossip for the moment, is it not?


I think this tells its own story



> This morning Mr Ephgrave described the arrest of a serving Met Police officer as both shocking and disturbing.
> That officer has now been further arrested on suspicion of murder.
> It's unusual for such a senior officer to give a statement at this stage of an investigation and perhaps reflects the horror felt within the force - a profession where colleagues often describe themselves as family.











						Sarah Everard disappearance: Met officer arrested on suspicion of murder
					

Londoner Sarah Everard, 33, has not been seen since she disappeared in Clapham a week ago.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I’ve been out to take my car for it’s MOT and walked back, stopped in to buy some groceries. Everyone is talking about it and everyone seems really quite shocked. Even round here where the OB don’t have much support, that’s the thing that’s making people raise their voice and wave their hands about, that it’s a cop.
> 
> 
> Two different people said that the only explicable reason they could fathom for a copper to be involved in her assumed death was if it was as a sex game gone wrong. Otherwise it was just... and then they trailed off and shook their heads. Two separate people volunteered that, with all appropriate caveats about it being awful under any circumstsnces. I suppose because it seems really extreme for a copper to be responsible for an abduction and disappearance, possible murder. It says something that people are grasping for ways to make it explicable. (Although apparently for some, it makes no odds that it was a copper...)
> ...


I can't get this "sex game gone wrong" thing out of my head. People actually said that?


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Don't know. Really don't know.
> 
> It is a subject that has sparked a lot of discord previously.


How about you stop referring to it too?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> A "local" person has gone missing




Have you misunderstood me?

I’m saying that when I heard that the suspect - the copper who has been arrested and charged - was not a member of the local community, I was relieved.

I was relieved to know that the suspect is not a member of our own community but instead is both not local, and also, being OB, isn’t someone we might know personally.

If it was someone who lives and works and shops and socialised locally, in the area, on this street, then that would feel really fucking dreadful, because it might be a neighbour or a friend, or at least someone that we might feel affinity for, as a local person with similar experiences and sensibilites.

Might not be a logical or rational response to feel relieved but it was a real and visceral feeling of relief.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I can't get this "sex game gone wrong" thing out of my head. People actually said that?




Yes.

I was taken aback by it too.

When the second person said it I pointed out that the “she likes it rough” sex game gone wrong thing has been used by the defence for killers in recent years. I think as BDSM has become more mainstream and recognised (50shades has a lot to answer for...) people are more prone to say and think these things.


----------



## Teaboy (Mar 10, 2021)

.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

Being a London copper makes him a part my community (if I like it or not)...


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> You might have seen this at the time, someone asked women what they’d do differently if there were a 9pm curfew for men. I found some of the replies really moving. Little article about it here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's doubly depressing. First the perfectly normal things the non-males say they would do. Then the deluge of males proving exactly why the thread exists and 100% failing to get it


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was taken aback by it too.



Depressingly successful defence, sadly.  When people speculate like that, you can see why. Grim.

ETA: crossed with your edit.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

This poor woman.


Mrs Miggins said:


> I can't get this "sex game gone wrong" thing out of my head. People actually said that?



It was a valid defence in murder cases but Centre for Women’s justice have challenged and won this iirc. It can’t be used as a defence now. Or the argument it shouldn’t be is going through the courts. There have been a lot of super complaints submitted by them recently so I’m sketchy on what’s been won and what’s going through.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes.
> 
> I was taken aback by it too.
> 
> When they’re the second person said it I pointed out that the “she likes it rough” sex game gone wrong thing has been used by the defence for killers in recent years. I think as BDSM has become more mainstream and recognised (50shades has a lot to answer for...) people are more prone to say and think these things.


I guess so many people have managed to get off murder charges with this defence now, some people must think it's a real thing.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Being a London copper makes him a part my community (if I like it or not)...




Okay yes, but this is splitting hairs.

Anyway, he was a firearms officer up west. Not a bobby on the beat


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> This poor woman.
> 
> 
> It was a valid defence in murder cases but Centre for Women’s justice have challenged and won this iirc. It can’t be used as a defence now. Or the argument it shouldn’t be is going through the courts. There have been a lot of super complaints submitted by them recently so I’m sketchy on what’s been won and what’s going through.




I’m deeply releived to know this.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Okay yes, but this is splitting hairs.
> 
> Anyway, he was a firearms officer up west. Not a bobby on the beat



Sorry, it wasn't in opposition to your points.

Living here and working in Westminster puts this fuck in two of my orbits


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Have you misunderstood me?
> 
> I’m saying that when I heard that the suspect - the copper who has been arrested and charged - was not a member of the local community, I was relieved.
> 
> ...


Ok. Fair enough. I was thinking this would not make me feel safer though. Have to say, looking at the much bigger picture, it's worrying, sad etc. That a member of the human race is capable of such awful crimes against a fellow human being regardless of what part of the country or world they are from.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Sorry, it wasn't in opposition to your points.
> 
> Living here and working in Westminster puts this fuck in two of my orbits



I get you.

I have connections with Ashford and Folkestone so it feels really..... invasive, like he has somehow pressed himself up against my life.

Really creepy feeling.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Journos are questioning her neighbours. The cunts.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

Do we know it's a man even?


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Do we know it's a man even?



Yes.

There's pics on this thread.

Of the one bad apple.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Ok. Fair enough. I was thinking this would not make me feel safer though. Have to say, looking at the much bigger picture, it's worrying, sad etc. That a member of the human race is capable of such awful crimes against a fellow human being regardless of what part of the country or world they are from.




I didn't say “safer”. I said “relieved”

I don’t feel safe.

I am constantly wary watchful and on guard.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I get you.
> 
> I have connections with Ashford and Folkestone so it feels really..... invasive, like he has somehow pressed himself up against my life.
> 
> Really creepy feeling.



I've lots of friends in Folkestone who are starting to realise the links....and message me...so it does feel really big; this whole sorry crime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Do we know it's a man even?


there are very few bald women named wayne


----------



## tony.c (Mar 10, 2021)

BBC PM news is saying he is part of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command.


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> This poor woman.
> 
> 
> It was a valid defence in murder cases but Centre for Women’s justice have challenged and won this iirc. It can’t be used as a defence now. Or the argument it shouldn’t be is going through the courts. There have been a lot of super complaints submitted by them recently so I’m sketchy on what’s been won and what’s going through.


Has it actually gone through yet? It hadn't last time I looked, and seems to be taking an age!


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

tony.c said:


> BBC PM news is saying he is part of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command.


That's going to have a few Command Arseholes doing the old half-crown and sixpence...


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Has it actually gone through yet? It hadn't last time I looked, and seems to be taking an age!


Domestic Abuse Bill - Parliamentary Bills - UK Parliament Still in progress but very nearly there


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Domestic Abuse Bill - Parliamentary Bills - UK Parliament Still in progress but very nearly there


Good. Let's hope so.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Has it actually gone through yet? It hadn't last time I looked, and seems to be taking an age!



I don’t know. Which is why I said I don’t know.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> How about you stop referring to it too?



I didn't raise it.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there are very few bald women named wayne


I have not gone near those reports.


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I have to say though... I did feel a huge letting go, a feeling of real relief when we heard that the suspect isn’t a local person.



I lived round there for years. It never seemed a particularly dodgy area, though I'm aware I'm speaking as a man


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> I lived round there for years. It never seemed a particularly dodgy area, though I'm aware I'm speaking as a man



I think we need to move past this concept of dodgy areas, at least when it comes to women and violence. It happens everywhere, just behind slightly nicer curtains or by well kept gardens. A woman got stabbed in broad daylight in Sutton Coldfield a couple of years ago. Just by the station on a busy street. Living in a ‘nice part of town’ doesn’t mean much.


----------



## Edie (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> This poor woman.
> 
> 
> It was a valid defence in murder cases but Centre for Women’s justice have challenged and won this iirc. It can’t be used as a defence now. Or the argument it shouldn’t be is going through the courts. There have been a lot of super complaints submitted by them recently so I’m sketchy on what’s been won and what’s going through.


These ladies are my absolute hero’s for this.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

Edie said:


> These ladies are my absolute hero’s for this.


And mine. And a big shout out should also go out to the women behind We Can't Consent to This which I think  started after Natalie Connolly was murdered by her boyfriend who used a 'rough sex gone wrong' defence and has now been released. They have worked closely with the CWJ to get the strangulation / choking clause added to the DV Bill We Can't Consent To This


----------



## rubbershoes (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I think we need to move past this concept of dodgy areas, at least when it comes to women and violence. It happens everywhere, just behind slightly nicer curtains or by well kept gardens. A woman got stabbed in broad daylight in Sutton Coldfield a couple of years ago. Just by the station on a busy street. Living in a ‘nice part of town’ doesn’t mean much.



True. Without wishing to derail at all, I was meaning that it didn't seem an area with high street crime


----------



## Edie (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> And mine. And a big shout out should also go out to the women behind We Can't Consent to This which I think  started after Natalie Connolly was murdered by her boyfriend who used a 'rough sex gone wrong' defence and has now been released. They have worked closely with the CWJ to get the strangulation / choking clause added to the DV Bill We Can't Consent To This


Yes it’s brilliant and I know has also been much welcomed by sex workers


----------



## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

It's interesting to me the legitimate outrage of people at a serving police officer being charged with this woman's murder, when that copper who killed his lover in a pub car park last year seemed to attract relatively little opprobrium. I wonder if it's the perception of blamelessness going on here.

Anyway, probably not the thread for it.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

Edie said:


> Yes it’s brilliant and I know has also been much welcomed by sex workers



CWJ also campaigned and have submitted appeals to get sex workers who have criminal records as a result of their sex work (so loitering offences etc) abolished and wiped off their records so it can’t be held against them in the future.


----------



## Geri (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I think we need to move past this concept of dodgy areas, at least when it comes to women and violence. It happens everywhere, just behind slightly nicer curtains or by well kept gardens. A woman got stabbed in broad daylight in Sutton Coldfield a couple of years ago. Just by the station on a busy street. Living in a ‘nice part of town’ doesn’t mean much.



I think you are right in that there are no 'safe' areas and recently there were a few sex attacks in Clifton, which is a very 'nice' part of Bristol. However, I live in a much cheaper part of town, which is known to the place to go if you are looking to buy sex, and the level of street harrassment is far worse here than in most parts of town. I don't like it when people call it a dodgy area though as I love living here.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

Geri said:


> I think you are right in that there are no 'safe' areas and recently there were a few sex attacks in Clifton, which is a very 'nice' part of Bristol. However, I live in a much cheaper part of town, which is known to the place to go if you are looking to buy sex, and the level of street harrassment is far worse here than in most parts of town. I don't like it when people call it a dodgy area though as I love living here.



That’s a fair point, 100% agree. I was probably a bit clumsy in how I was expressing myself. In Holbeck in Leeds where the police experimented with decriminalisation of street sex work, women living but not working there  reported an enormous increase in sexual harassment.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> You might have seen this at the time, someone asked women what they’d do differently if there were a 9pm curfew for men. I found some of the replies really moving. Little article about it here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Might be an interesting approach tbh. Men would need a valid reason to be out - bring it home that it's what women have to live with.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Might be an interesting approach tbh. Men would need a valid reason to be out - bring it home that it's what women have to live with.


That will never happen, of course. Even if it was just Tuesdays, that would be great though, I think it would be amazing.

It does give me a bit of hope to see there’s blokes on the Twitter today asking for advice about how to act so as to not scare women who are walking alone (most consistent responses are cross the road so as not to be walking behind her, keep face visible, make noise, like phone a friend or pretend to because silence is frightening).


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Might be an interesting approach tbh. Men would need a valid reason to be out - bring it home that it's what women have to live with.


Maybe I have misunderstood - but women have to live with a valid reason for being out after a certain time?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Maybe I have misunderstood - but women have to live with a valid reason for being out after a certain time?


No, but women are warned not to go out if there's a man out there attacking women. I was thinking more of a sort of local one-off promotional exercise to let men know what that feels like.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

two sheds said:


> No, but women are warned not to go out if there's a man out there attacking women. I was thinking more of a sort of local one-off promotional exercise to let men know what that feels like.


An exercise in promoting what? Awareness?  Restriction of freedoms?


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Maybe I have misunderstood - but women have to live with a valid reason for being out after a certain time?


That was literally the advice given by the Met earlier this week: women, stay home in the evenings.
And it was the advice when the Yorkshire Ripper was at large too.

Every time there is a multiple male sex attacker, women are told to curtail their behaviour. 

I find it slightly unbelievable that this has passed you by.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> An exercise in promoting what? Awareness?  Restriction of freedoms?


Both, really: awareness of restriction of all womens' freedoms because of the actions of some men.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Seems the guardian has the same Twitter as me.








						Women tell men how to make them feel safe after Sarah Everard disappearance
					

Social media deluged with posts about women feeling unsafe in public in the wake of the 33-year-old’s disappearance




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> That was literally the advice given by the Met earlier this week: women, stay home in the evenings.
> And it was the advice when the Yorkshire Ripper was at large too.
> 
> Every time there is a multiple male sex attacker, women are told to curtail their behaviour.
> ...


No, it hasn't passed me by.
My post was asking for clarification on the point ( good one) that the poster was making.
Hope that's clear TrashPony?


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

oh I see. I think the point was that instead of women being told to stay in during the evenings, why don’t we tell men to stay in?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

rubbershoes said:


> I lived round there for years. It never seemed a particularly dodgy area, though I'm aware I'm speaking as a man




It’s no more dodgy than anywhere else.
As I’ve said several times, I often cut through those estates, in daylight and in darkness.

Being wary is a default background hum for many women. For me, that’s compounded by ongoing ptsd arsing from an abusive relationship in my recent past. When something like this happens, it’s hardly surprising that the background hum gets turned up to white noise levels.

It’s not about the area. It’s about men.

When I was under the cosh I’d often roam around the streets for hours and sit alone in pubs rather than go home. Home was not sanctuary. The streets felt safer.



But also, I find it curious that you’re thinking of this story with reference street crime when it appears to be male-on-female violence, and not a mugging that got out of hand.

For you, the primary meaning of “dodgy” is street crime while the women in recent posts are talking about sexual assault stuff making an area “dodgy”.

Not having a pop, rather reflecting your posts as they appear to me. And I do recognise that you are thoughtful about this stuff.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> That was literally the advice given by the Met earlier this week: women, stay home in the evenings.
> And it was the advice when the Yorkshire Ripper was at large too.
> 
> Every time there is a multiple male sex attacker, women are told to curtail their behaviour.
> ...


Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?


----------



## Cloo (Mar 10, 2021)

tony.c said:


> BBC PM news is saying he is part of the Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command.


Shit - I think our next door neighbour is in that team, he'll probably know the guy 

The discussion this has brought up has been interesting. I seem to be the one woman in the world who hasn't faced much harrassment and has never felt like I've had to take a lot of action to avoid men at night (I did, when I was still going out late, worry a bit about my safety in terms of mugging etc, but never as a woman specifically). Now I used to think this meant other women were exagerrating, but I've since  got over myself, listened to women and I think I was just very, very lucky not to have had much in the way of alarming or outright traumatic experiences. I sometimes explain this to guys who are in the 'well I've never seen it, so it can't be that bad' camp, as I didn't either, but I have paid attention to other women.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?


No it doesn't pass all men by, I can state unequivocally.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

I think a lot of men think this kind of thing is unrelated to what’s happened to Sarah. It isn’t. It is a constant barrage of harassment, day after day, from the time you are a little girl until you are an old woman. It’s exhausting, stressful, scary and really fucking infuriating.

I am *so angry* at all the men who do this shit. And all their nice guy mates who don’t call them out on it because Dave’s a bit sad and he hasn’t had a girlfriend for ages. So angry.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?


That's the thing. Without it being (in my case) clearly defined and conscious, that is the fear that guided a whole load of decisions and actions, that became second nature, or at least were whilst i lived in the city. The decision not to cut through the park, walk all the way round, the decision to not sit in that train carriage look for another one, to walk fast head down keys in hand, etc etc. It's completely 'normal' and massively stressful at the same time.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?




Yes.


When I was thinking last night, I wasn’t going “Oh my god! It could happen to me!” because that’s a familiar idea to me, and one I choose not to be governed by, so I walk about insist on my right to feel free.

Instead, my thinking last night was more along the lines of “...where it happen to me, or even when it happens to me, I wonder how long it would take for me to be missed by others?” And how has that been at different times of my life, for instance when I was 33. (Sarah Everard’s age).


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> That's the thing. Without it being (in my case) clearly defined and conscious, that is the fear that guided a whole load of decisions and actions, that became second nature, or at least were whilst i lived in the city. The decision not to cut through the park, walk all the way round, the decision to not sit in that train carriage look for another one, to walk fast head down keys in hand, etc etc. It's completely 'normal' and massively stressful at the same time.




I actually think that this low level chronic stressful awareness contributes to some of the health issues women have to deal with in the long term.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?


well...








						Half of men have had unwanted sexual experiences, UK study finds
					

Mankind UK is calling for more attention to be paid to sexual abuse survivors who identify as male




					www.theguardian.com
				




there are many more sexual assaults against men that aren't mentioned than generally thought. by no means on the same level as sexual assaults / rapes of women. but something which is definitely undercounted and so unconsidered.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

I live in a forest now, alone, and its totally dark out there and i've not yet felt spooked once. In my case the behaviours (fast walking, tense body) fell away soon as i moved here. So it is circumstantial not a part of us, is my feeling.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> That will never happen, of course. Even if it was just Tuesdays, that would be great though, I think it would be amazing.
> 
> It does give me a bit of hope to see there’s blokes on the Twitter today asking for advice about how to act so as to not scare women who are walking alone (most consistent responses are cross the road so as not to be walking behind her, keep face visible, make noise, like phone a friend or pretend to because silence is frightening).



I think it's really depressing that any of that advice is not already totally fucking obvious by now, tbh.
As a _woman_, I already instinctively practise all of this if I'm walking through any enclosed or isolated space, even in bright daylight, if I find myself _behind_ someone else, quite apart from the measures I take to look out for myself in those situations.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> That's the thing. Without it being (in my case) clearly defined and conscious, that is the fear that guided a whole load of decisions and actions, that became second nature, or at least were whilst i lived in the city. The decision not to cut through the park, walk all the way round, the decision to not sit in that train carriage look for another one, to walk fast head down keys in hand, etc etc. It's completely 'normal' and massively stressful at the same time.


And then in cases like this, cunts (mostly men) will think the victim made the wrong choices. 

Fucking hate this

I've just been treating a young woman who was raped in her late teens (CBT for PTSD) . She's lived with the self blame since. I can't imagine what it's like to have the lived experience of trauma like that, or the fear of trauma like that. As part of her treatment we did a survey about attitudes towards victims of rape, because she thought everyone would think it was her fault, or she was dirty and damaged. Literally no one that answred survey thought that, but it's clearly an idea that victims have. Society is fucked when it comes to attitudes about victims of all sorts of crimes like this. From judges attitudes, media reporting etc etc. 

The survey was answered by my colleagues. 40% had experienced sexual assault. This shit isn't unusual its almost the fucking norm and men have no fucking idea how threatening they are to women. Makes my blood boil


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Have you ever been worried about being sexually asaulted on the way home from the pub? Or not gone for a walk somewhere because you thought you might be sexually assaulted?


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 10, 2021)

Four-fifths of young women in the UK have been sexually harassed, survey finds
					

Exclusive: YouGov poll reveals extent of abuse and lack of faith in authorities’ ability to deal with it




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

I'd like to share something that happened two summers ago.

We had people round due to some of our mutual friends being back in London. Drinks and food - started late Saturday afternoon went on till early Sunday am.
When it cake to leaving time, one of my wife's uni friends who came on her own, wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber etc to take her back to her Air B'nB, which was in Battersea. She was adamant that she could 'find her own way' etc.
Despite my wife (her friend of over 24 years) repeatedly asking her to either stay with us or get a cab, she left to go home.
I followed her, not only due to my wife insistence but my own fear of her getting lost/falling over or worse. I just wanted her to be safe and in her inebriated state, I couldn't be sure.
Over 90 mins later she had walked the whole distance to her accommodation unknowing that I was following her.

Few days later she called to say thank you for the party etc and wonderful to see everyone. My wife then explained what I had done .The friend was incandescent with rage, how we had not listened to her and disrespected her etc. My wife was both shocked and very upset.

She has not been in contact with us since.

That evening, we did the right thing and made the right choice in my opinion. 

I tell you this story, not out of any kind of virtue signalling or woe betide us men having to make tough decisions etc, but to highlight that the majority f men know what to do and how to behave.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 10, 2021)

There's an expectation that women should "keep themselves safe". We shouldn't be out, we shouldn't be drinking, we should watch what we wear, how we act, what we say. Because if we get attacked it's on us, our fault. You can see the reactions on social media in this case. 
The logical thing to do _would _be to curfew men when there's an uncaught sexual attacker. But men aren't responsible for it - women are made to be.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> well...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do we really need a ‘what about the fellas?’ on this particular thread?
There are men on this thread even making witticisms ffs


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> I'd like to share something that happened two summers ago.
> 
> We had people round due to some of our mutual friends being back in London. Drinks and food - started late Saturday afternoon went on till early Sunday am.
> When it cake to leaving time, one of my wife's uni friends who came on her own, wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber etc to take her back to her Air B'nB, which was in Battersea. She was adamant that she could 'find her own way' etc.
> ...


that is a very weird story!
Tbh i think i'd have been furious too. And the moral at the end about the majority of men is.. odd.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Have you ever been worried about being sexually asaulted on the way home from the pub? Or not gone for a walk somewhere because you thought you might be sexually assaulted?


I haven't myself. But there will be a fair number of men whose experiences will be rather different. There was that case in the news recently about the man who'd raped something like 200 men, so there's definitely something there that only occasionally emerges into public consciousness. I simply dropped the article into the thread because it seemed relevant to your post and I thought I'd made clear I wasn't suggesting any kind of equivalence of numbers or experience etc but I was obviously wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Do we really need a ‘what about the fellas?’ on this particular thread?
> There are men on this thread even making witticisms ffs


It's not a what about the fellas. I dropped it in because it seemed relevant to mumbles' post, because of the recent research.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there. That's the thing that passes men by isn't it?


I got that book "Everyday Sexism" (I think on the recommendation of someone here). It's an uncomfortable read, but it's a useful way of getting across the point that the kind of things that make women feel uncomfortable are a lot more embedded in the way society - and men within it - operates than we might like to think.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not a what about the fellas. I dropped it in because it seemed relevant to mumbles' post, because of the recent research.


Men getting sexually asaualted is relevant to men sure (not saying it isn't relevant to anyone else) . But this thread is about the dissappearanceof a woman and violence towards women. Men can have their voices and worries head when they need to, not when it's not about them


----------



## girasol (Mar 10, 2021)

Human remains found in woods 😭


----------



## izz (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Is there ever a time that women don't worry that there is a sex attacker out there.


No there never really is. Moving away from cities and towns has helped me a lot with this, but even at 59 I'm never not aware of where other people are in shops, crowds etc. My mother told me a few years ago she was worried I was losing my 'street smarts' but I was able to reassure here that no, it never leaves you.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> I'd like to share something that happened two summers ago.
> 
> We had people round due to some of our mutual friends being back in London. Drinks and food - started late Saturday afternoon went on till early Sunday am.
> When it cake to leaving time, one of my wife's uni friends who came on her own, wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber etc to take her back to her Air B'nB, which was in Battersea. She was adamant that she could 'find her own way' etc.
> ...


The reason she was so furious, I suspect, was that you had done _exactly_ the thing that tends to scare women: she had made an explicit request to go home alone, and you decided you knew better. That's what happens when some stranger says "give us a kiss, darlin'" and won't take no for an answer. It's disempowering, no matter how noble your motives might have been.


----------



## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.


No. I think it's fucking creepy myself.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.


Please - it's not about being gallant.
It's about doing what we thought was the right thing to do
I wish we lived in a society where it was not necessary, as we both know we don't live in such unfortunately.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Please - it's not about being gallant.
> It's about doing what we thought was the right thing to do
> I wish we lived in a society where it was not necessary, as we both know we don't live in such unfortunately.


Why do you think she was angry instead of grateful?


----------



## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

girasol said:


> Human remains found in woods 😭


Oh no. There's knowing the inevitable outcome and the hope that maybe this time it won't happen. I really really hoped.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Both times I have been sexually assaulted it was in broad daylight. No later than 3pm. Not sure how staying home of an evening would have saved me from that. Cheers for the advice tho...


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Oh no. There's knowing the inevitable outcome and the hope that maybe this time it won't happen. I really really hoped.


I really hoped it wouldn’t be so. This is all far too close to home


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Please - it's not about being gallant.
> It's about doing what we thought was the right thing to do
> I wish we lived in a society where it was not necessary, as we both know we don't live in such unfortunately.


"what we thought" - so immediately, the woman in question's preference is discounted. What about what *she* wanted to do?


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> The reason she was so furious, I suspect, was that you had done _exactly_ the thing that tends to scare women: she had made an explicit request to go home alone, and you decided you knew better. That's what happens when some stranger says "give us a kiss, darlin'" and won't take no for an answer. It's disempowering, no matter how noble your motives might have been.


Due to alcohol consumption, it was clear that her cognitive abilities were impaired.

'give us a kiss' - sorry it's completely different.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 10, 2021)

The poor woman's family, I can't imagine what they must be going through   

The area they are searching in Kent, Great Chart, is a few miles from where my Dad lives. Brings it home.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Due to alcohol consumption, it was clear that her cognitive abilities were impaired.
> 
> 'give us a kiss' - sorry it's completely different.


To you, perhaps. To her, it would have felt like the same thing - "he did just what he wanted to do, regardless of my wishes".

ETA: anyway, in view of the latest developments, this conversation is probably best had elsewhere.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.


I share your feelings bimble 

It infantalises her/white knights a saviour 

Basically men on this thread challenge yourselves first before you set out to save women 

 how many of you can honestly say you've never done something that adds to the 'low level hum' (mentioned by SheilaNaGig ) of fear and threat that helps to keep women in their place ?


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

baldrick said:


> No. I think it's fucking creepy myself.


What would you have done Baldrick?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.



Not me.

Seems really peculiar to me.

I think I’d be proper weirded out by the idea that my mate’s bloke had followed me home for an hour and a half as some kind of invisible uninvited and actively declined deed or quest.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 10, 2021)

Tiktok posts are broadcasting pics of person with plenty of allegations .


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Due to alcohol consumption, it was clear that her cognitive abilities were impaired.
> 
> 'give us a kiss' - sorry it's completely different.



I can see both sides.  You were worried about her and wanted to make sure she was ok.  

She was angry that you disregarded her wishes.  

I'm trying to think what I'd do if a slightly pissed friend insisted on walking home alone.  I might do the same as you.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I share your feelings bimble
> 
> It infantalises her/white knights a saviour
> 
> ...


Can I just add that this was nothing to do with white knight behaviour or the such - at the insistence of my wife (as stated ) and my neighbours.
Not to mention genuine concern.


----------



## Poot (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> I'd like to share something that happened two summers ago.
> 
> We had people round due to some of our mutual friends being back in London. Drinks and food - started late Saturday afternoon went on till early Sunday am.
> When it cake to leaving time, one of my wife's uni friends who came on her own, wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber etc to take her back to her Air B'nB, which was in Battersea. She was adamant that she could 'find her own way' etc.
> ...


She is a woman, not a child. If she wants to go home on her own she should be able to without being followed by any man, including you. I'd be pissed off if someone thought I needed a chaperone, too. It's patronising. Women really just need to be left tf alone.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Please - it's not about being gallant.
> It's about doing what we thought was the right thing to do
> I wish we lived in a society where it was not necessary, as we both know we don't live in such unfortunately.




But are you going to follow me home the next time I need walk across the common after I’ve had a few bevvies? What about all the other women who are in need of your protection?

It feels to me patriarchal proprietorial.
“Our guest, wife’s friend, my responsibility”


----------



## izz (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.


I can understand Mr paulee's motives and I believe they were for the best - but, and it is a horrible thing to say, _but_ if it happened to me, and I realised someone was following me, regardless of what kind of relationship I had with that man, regardless of what state I was in, there would be part of me that believed he was being predatory. And why ? _Because that's what happens_. _That's what happens when you're a woman._

If I started listing all the times I'd been followed, harassed, flashed at and assaulted in the street, by strangers, well, I'd describe about 20 incidents. I've been assaulted in clubs, I've had over friendly men I've worked with or known try to come on a bit strong, and this is not unusual, this has been my reality and I'm prepared to bet of many others. 40% sounds a bit low to me.


----------



## Glitter (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.



The moral of that story is that Mr paulee, like many other men, don’t respect boundaries.


----------



## Athos (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> I don’t know. Which is why I said I don’t know.


Makes sense.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 10, 2021)

izz said:


> I can understand Mr paulee's motives and I believe they were for the best - but, and it is a horrible thing to say, _but_ if it happened to me, and I realised someone was following me, regardless of what kind of relationship I had with that man, regardless of what state I was in, there would be part of me that believed he was being predatory. And why ? _Because that's what happens_. _That's what happens when you're a woman._
> 
> If I started listing all the times I'd been followed, harassed, flashed at and assaulted in the street, by strangers, well, I'd describe about 20 incidents. I've been assaulted in clubs, I've had over friendly men I've worked with or known try to come on a bit strong, and this is not unusual, this has been my reality and I'm prepared to bet of many others. 40% sounds a bit low to me.


I think 40% is low too. It was a small sample survey


----------



## baldrick (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> What would you have done Baldrick?


You could have walked with her. Following her without her knowing is really weird and odd. And she was fine anyway wasn't she, you didn't have to rescue her from a random assailant.

There's a story I read on Twitter today in the aftermath of the developments in this case of a woman when she was 17 walking back from a friend's house, realising someone was behind her. A bit freaked out, she crossed the road. They followed. She walked faster, they sped up. She started running and realised the person was gaining on her. She stopped and turned around preparing to fight for her life....and it was her friend's dad, claiming he wanted to make sure she got home safe.

Still feel like it was the right thing to do?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Can I just add that this was nothing to do with white knight behaviour or the such - at the insistence of my wife (as stated ) and my neighbours.
> Not to mention genuine concern.



If that did happen; and I can completely imagine a night of drinks and insisting that I was okay to walk/get home alone, as well as imagine your wife/neighbours saying _noooooooo it's not safe_ after i'd left and putting you on the spot, _make sure she gets home_ and you trundling off to make sure of that...I don't know why your wife told her. 

She should have kept quiet because regardless of the motive, it does sound creepy and it would have unnerved me too, especially because after a night drinking the next day is a little raw and whilst I was replaying it and filling the inevitable gaps it would make me feel more vulnerable to know someone had managed to follow me for 90 minutes without me noticing, regardless of who they were and why. Stalking, flashing, following, dangerous, raping, assaulting men are the thing most women fear. Our wits and getting home safe is all we have. Can you not see that?

When you do 'well meaning' things, often just keeping quiet about them is the better option. Of course now we mostly bundle our friends in to ubers that we've insisted on booking and paying for if we think they are a little too worse for wear.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

Sarah Everard walks down a street in south London and is found dead somewhere in Kent. This is so far from the usual, it’s the stuff of nightmares, what do people say to their daughters to explain it but not terrify them, I don’t know.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> someone had managed to follow me for 90 minutes without me noticing


maybe they noticed, and were terrified most of the way home.


----------



## izz (Mar 10, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> I think 40% is low too. It was a small sample survey


I can't 'like' that post but I can concur.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> If that did happen; and I can completely imagine a night of drinks and insisting that I was okay to walk/get home alone, as well as imagine your wife/neighbours saying _noooooooo it's not safe_ after i'd left and putting you on the spot, _make sure she gets home_ and you trundling off to make sure of that...I don't know why your wife told her. She should have kept quiet because regardless of the motive, it does sound creepy and it would have unnerved me too, especially because after a night drinking the next day is a little raw and whilst I was replaying it and filling the inevitable gaps it would make me feel more vulnerable to know someone had managed to follow me for 90 minutes without me noticing, regardless of who they were and why. Can you not see that?
> 
> When you do 'well meaning' things, often just keeping quiet about them is the better option. Of course now we mostly bundle our friends in to ubers that we've insisted on booking and paying for if we think they are a little too worse for wear.


I don't tell my wife what to tell and not tell her close friends.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

*_ex_ close friends


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> I don't tell my wife what to tell and not tell her close friends.



Good grief. I gave you a get out...a chance to see the point being made to you and you swerved it. It was a hypothetical, to illustrate what could be done better and why. I didn't tell you what you should tell your wife to do. I offered an alternative to demonstrate the point. But nah, you chose to ignore that with nonsense. You don't care about how women feel. Gotcha.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

baldrick said:


> You could have walked with her. Following her without her knowing is really weird and odd. And she was fine anyway wasn't she, you didn't have to rescue her from a random assailant.
> 
> There's a story I read on Twitter today in the aftermath of the developments in this case of a woman when she was 17 walking back from a friend's house, realising someone was behind her. A bit freaked out, she crossed the road. They followed. She walked faster, they sped up. She started running and realised the person was gaining on her. She stopped and turned around preparing to fight for her life....and it was her friend's dad, claiming he wanted to make sure she got home safe.
> 
> Still feel like it was the right thing to do?


You don't think that option was offered?  Walk with her/Uber/shared Uber/Neighbours son to be woken up and drive her to air b'n'b? All rejected.

I'm sorry about that incident on twitter,

'still feel like tit was the right thing to do?' - as I have said, I believe i did the right thing.

You still haven't answered the question - of what you would have done?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 10, 2021)

Body found in Ashford Wood, super grim story. It's a really rare kind of murder you have to remind yourself. I wonder how the link was made to the arrested policeman?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> *_ex_ close friends




Ooof!

In with the killer side blow there killer b.



Okay, can we maybe leave this to one side just for the moment while the news of Sarah being found in woodlands has a chance to land.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Good grief. I gave you a get out...a chance to see the point being made to you and you swerved it. It was a hypothetical, to illustrate what could be done better and why. But nah, you chose to ignore that with nonsense. You don't care about how women feel. Gotcha.


'Gotcha' - please.
Engage like an adult.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

Something that made me shudder a bit this week is that I've said to people staying here, and/or friends and family that when out at night to stick to the a205, it's well lit, it's busy, there are buses, plenty of traffic, keep to the main roads, and there are road signs to follow so you won't get lost.

Vanishing from that location has been the big shock for me...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> 'Gotcha' - please.
> Engage like an adult.



'Gotcha' means 'right I understand' numnuts.

editor FridgeMagnet Can this twit be removed from the thread please?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Something that made me shudder a bit this week is that I've said to people staying here, and/or friends and family that when out at night to stick to the a205, it's well lit, it's busy, there are buses, plenty of traffic, keep to the main roads, and there are road signs to follow so you won't get lost.
> 
> Vanishing from that location has been the big shock for me...




Not busy with pedestrians though. And the traffic is fairly fast moving.

ETA
I mean if you’re in a car moving at 30 mph, how much of an abduction would you actually really see? And even if you clocked it, realised what was going on and decided to intervene, by the time you’ve turned the car around to go back would there be any trace? More chance for walkers in side streets to intevene. That’s always been my policy when walking about: it’s the quality of the busyness, not the quantity, that I’m gauging for my safety.





Not yet confirmed.

Although it’s her, isn’t it.









						Sarah Everard: Human remains found in Kent woodland
					

The 33-year-old disappeared while walking home in Clapham, London, last week.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Something that made me shudder a bit this week is that I've said to people staying here, and/or friends and family that when out at night to stick to the a205, it's well lit, it's busy, there are buses, plenty of traffic, keep to the main roads, and there are road signs to follow so you won't get lost.
> 
> Vanishing from that location has been the big shock for me...


It’s part of the shock for all women locally I think. She did what we are told to do- take the longer route home that’s better lit. Wear sports clothes, flat shoes. Make sure someone knows your eta. Etc etc etc. 

But basically women trying to keep themselves safe in a hostile world has always been a mug’s game. We need to address the world not trap women in ever narrowing choices (with the flip side of well what was she doing there/then/in that/with him- she should have kept herself safe)


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Not busy with pedestrians though. And the traffic is fairly fast flowing
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is what I mean by a mug’s game- it’s busy but maybe it’s the wrong sort of busy. Whatever we do to try and stay safe we can’t when so many people see us as prey or objects. We have to stop expecting women to run this weird safety-maths in their heads the whole time and start seriously addressing male violence


----------



## Looby (Mar 10, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> 'Gotcha' - please.
> Engage like an adult.


Shut up. You’ve been told why it was a shit idea and other women have told you they wouldn’t like it. 
How about you just fucking listen. Listen to the women who are talking about their fears, worries and anger.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.



No, I too would have been really angry and weirded out if someone did that to me.


----------



## izz (Mar 10, 2021)

Rest in peace Sarah.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 10, 2021)

Grim news, my other half often goes out running after dark around here, this feels very close to home.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 10, 2021)

'Identification may take some time' does not sound good


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 10, 2021)

Just awful news.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 10, 2021)

Petcha said:


> 'Identification may take some time' does not sound good



Oh goodness the poor woman.  
This is all so sickening.


----------



## Cloo (Mar 10, 2021)

I think Paulee's actions explain a lot about the misunderstanding in society about 'protecting women'. We don't want men to protect us from other men. We don't want men to beat up other men if they do us wrong because that does nothing to help us. ( Sidenote: when I see a guy crow about how he'll make any guy who even thinks about assaulting his girl/daughter/sister etc sorry, I'd pretty much bet this is also a guy whose first reaction to his girl/daughter sister telling him she's been assaulted would be 'What were you wearing/were you drunk?'). I'm sure many men will now go online raging nobly about how they'd like to beat the crap out of Sarah's killer, but that won't bring her back or prevent other women from meeting her fate.

What we need is guys to not harrass and assault women, not to do and say things that enable harrassment and assault, and to actively stop their mates, brothers and fathers from doing these things as well. That is how you do something positive in tribute to victims of male violence like Sarah.


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

Yes! And also why do we always end up talking about what men feel and what they should do and not all men and all that crap? Handmaidens of the patriarchy saying we mustn’t be angry and bitter because we’ll alienate the caring and concerned men. Twitter has not all men trending higher than Sarah’s name. One of my WhatsApps has gone straight to discussing the rights and feelings of the man arrested for her kidnap and murder.

Men men men. Always it’s all about men. Kidnap, rape, murder, it always all ends up all about them.


----------



## blossie33 (Mar 10, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Body found in Ashford Wood, super grim story. It's a really rare kind of murder you have to remind yourself. I wonder how the link was made to the arrested policeman?



I wonder if someone local to the Ashford area where he lives saw her with him? He was taken in on a suspected kidnap charge originally.

Very, very sad


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 10, 2021)

Did this guy rent a flat locally? seen it mentioned twice online today. Maybe rumour.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 10, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Did this guy rent a flat locally? seen it mentioned twice online today. Maybe rumour.


More speculation/rumour. Not sure how helpful it is. Best wait until the facts come out.


----------



## bimble (Mar 10, 2021)

It’s not sad to me her death (not yet anyway) it’s blood boilingly angry-making.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 10, 2021)

There's a Reclaim the Streets vigil planned at Clapham Common for those who are local
Facebook link here


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Mar 10, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> There's a Reclaim the Streets vigil planned at Clapham Common for those who are local
> Facebook link here


Thank you for linking this.

I will go, and I will walk the route down the A205, and back again afterwards.

In some of her footsteps , and to say 'this is what women have the right to do' to all the people who in the aftermath of Sarah's disappearance went on and on, on Twitter, Facebook, forums other than this, to say 'why was she out so late' 'why did she walk home alone?' 'why didn't she take an Uber' (hah! the cab company that my organisation ruled not compliant with our safeguarding policies for sending staff and young participants home late at night in).

Whoever said 'it's not the location, it's men' - I agree. I have always worked in theatre, and always needed to come home from work late at night. The good news is that this level of attack is very rare. And  I was never bothered (except by reeling drunks) or assaulted late at night walking home through Brixton. But I was assaulted on a crowded tube, and I was assaulted on a crowded pavement outside the tube in broad daylight. But...the constant backbeat of 'be alert' at all times. I would walk along Josephine Ave in the road rather than close to the hedges and driveways. Keys in hand. Footwear in which I could kick and run.

There is nothing you can do if you are in the wrong place at the wrong time, and I am very very sad for Sarah and her family and friends that this time, it was her. 

Heartbreaking.


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> There's a Reclaim the Streets vigil planned at Clapham Common for those who are local
> Facebook link here


Shared on Buzz: Reclaim These Streets: Vigil for Sarah Everard, Clapham Common, Sat 13th March 2021


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

I don’t think of myself as scared when I walk alone- because I’m low level cautious and scared and periodically reckless (and usually lucky) all the time. It’s just a background noise to my life. Imagine what I and all women could do if a little safety-maths ticker wasn’t running in the background of my mind 24/7 draining my power.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 10, 2021)

Maybe some of the men on this thread could reflect on why they feel the need to talk over women about their experiences.


----------



## girasol (Mar 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> i very much want to know if any women hereabouts think that Mr paulee did a gallant good thing and they'd have been happy / grateful when told that he'd followed them for 90 minutes.



It would depend on the friendship and on how wasted I was. If was off my face, staggering all over the place and refusing assistance even though I might be in a inebriated state that left me vulnerable AND it was a friend I knew and trusted? I'd actually be grateful, maybe not on the night but certainly the morning after.

The intention would have been one of care, not of harm, how could I be angry with a friend for caring for my safety? But if it wasn't someone I knew well I'd be weirded out.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Maybe some of the men on this thread could reflect on why they feel the need to talk over women about their experiences.



Maybe men everywhere can do this.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

This is very close to home for me because Sarah lived a couple of streets away and I have seen her picture on every tree and lamppost for the past week. But I keep reminding myself that one of the reasons it’s such big news is because it’s very rare to be abducted and murdered. 😡😭


----------



## oryx (Mar 10, 2021)

This is awful. Poor woman, and her poor friends and family.

Something I've been thinking a lot recently...is anyone else quite alarmed by the number of prime time crime dramas featuring murder of, and violence against women?


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> This is very close to home for me because Sarah lived a couple of streets away and I have seen her picture on every tree and lamppost for the past week. But I keep reminding myself that one of the reasons it’s such big news is because it’s very rare to be abducted and murdered. 😡😭



But femicide in general isn’t rare. From 2019 homicide stats:


----------



## weepiper (Mar 10, 2021)

Manter said:


> Yes! And also why do we always end up talking about what men feel and what they should do and not all men and all that crap? Handmaidens of the patriarchy saying we mustn’t be angry and bitter because we’ll alienate the caring and concerned men. Twitter has not all men trending higher than Sarah’s name. One of my WhatsApps has gone straight to discussing the rights and feelings of the man arrested for her kidnap and murder.
> 
> Men men men. Always it’s all about men. Kidnap, rape, murder, it always all ends up all about them.


Just been talking to Mr W about all of this and after we railed about the awfulness of it all and so on I said to him 'you know I don't think you're all bastards. I _like_ men. It's just that on the one hand, there's all the men that I know and like and who are good guys, and on the other, there's men who might kill me.'


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

But purenarcotic what those statistics show is you’re twice as likely to be murdered if you’re a man.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

oryx said:


> This is awful. Poor woman, and her poor friends and family.
> 
> Something I've been thinking a lot recently...is anyone else quite alarmed by the number of prime time crime dramas featuring murder of, and violence against women?


Yes. This is one of hendo’s big bugbears too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2021)

oryx said:


> This is awful. Poor woman, and her poor friends and family.
> 
> Something I've been thinking a lot recently...is anyone else quite alarmed by the number of prime time crime dramas featuring murder of, and violence against women?


And a lot of them are graphic beyond any possible relevance to the plot.


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

oryx said:


> Something I've been thinking a lot recently...is anyone else quite alarmed by the number of prime time crime dramas featuring murder of, and violence against women?


Yeah, doon mackichan  did a great docu on radio 4 about this a few years ago that totally opened my eyes - annoyingly it's not on the website anymore though. I've tried to be more conscious of shows relying so much on male on female violence since then - its a whole lot of them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

oryx said:


> This is awful. Poor woman, and her poor friends and family.
> 
> Something I've been thinking a lot recently...is anyone else quite alarmed by the number of prime time crime dramas featuring murder of, and violence against women?



I literally can't and won't watch any violence on TV/film now. I select what I watch really carefully. I have enough trauma already.


----------



## oryx (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> Yes. This is one of hendo’s big bugbears too.





Pickman's model said:


> And a lot of them are graphic beyond any possible relevance to the plot.





killer b said:


> Yeah, doon mackichan  did a great docu on radio 4 about this a few years ago that totally opened my eyes - annoyingly it's not on the website anymore though. I've tried to be more conscious of shows relying so much on male on female violence since then - its a whole lot of them.





Rutita1 said:


> I literally can't and won't watch any violence on TV/film now. I select what I watch really carefully. I have enough trauma already.



I think I watched a few around the time of the fortieth anniversary of the arrest of Peter Sutcliffe, and it really quite shocked me. 

Even the ones who don't die are found bound, gagged etc. 

Wish I'd seen the Doon Mackichan thing killer b


----------



## killer b (Mar 10, 2021)

oryx said:


> Wish I'd seen the Doon Mackichan thing killer b


Actually it's back up - here: Body Count Rising - BBC Sounds


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> But purenarcotic what those statistics show is you’re twice as likely to be murdered if you’re a man.



Yes, they do. Which is awful. But it also shows that femicide is rising significantly. And yet this is in a backdrop of new laws around coercive control, post the #metoo movement and much more vocal discussions about abuse and violence against women. That bothers me. Doesn’t it bother you?


----------



## oryx (Mar 10, 2021)

killer b said:


> Actually it's back up - here: Body Count Rising - BBC Sounds


Thanks - must listen to that. 

It's concerning that grisly murders, often gratuitously graphic as Pickman's model has pointed out, are considered prime time entertainment. Although I'm as guilty of watching them as the next person.

Surely corruption, money laundering, drug dealing, fraud etc is equally entertaining although I'm under no illusions that these don't have their fair share of violence and murder. 

We are so inured to violence, especially against women, that there are no trigger warnings, AFAICS. Yet you get a trigger warning for someone saying 'shit' or the F word.


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> This is very close to home for me because Sarah lived a couple of streets away and I have seen her picture on every tree and lamppost for the past week. But I keep reminding myself that one of the reasons it’s such big news is because it’s very rare to be abducted and murdered. 😡😭


But terrifyingly common to be raped, harassed, assaulted, abused.
Twitter today has been horrifying, mostly because of the outpouring of experiences, women basically listing things and there are loads they forget and have to go back and add, because it’s so fucking much we can’t even keep track of it all. I’ve got the ones I’ve turned into funny stories, the life lessons, and the one I don’t talk about because even now 15 years later I feel sick thinking about it.... 

I’m oscillating between rage and sadness and exhaustion right now.


----------



## Manter (Mar 10, 2021)

And Cressida fucking Dick and the Met with there ‘he wasn’t on duty’ schtick. Like oh, ok, then we’re all cool?


----------



## editor (Mar 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I literally can't and won't watch any violence on TV/film now. I select what I watch really carefully. I have enough trauma already.


Without getting into the whole 'do video games cause violence' thing, why the fuck would the programmers go _out of their way_ to include this kind of 'feature' in this hugely popular game?



> In this clip of gameplay from Grand Theft Auto V, a user pays a prostitute for sex - which then unfolds in graphic footage - before the male character punches the woman to the ground, leaving her unconscious. It's also possible to kill the prostitute.











						Prostitute performs sex acts on GTA V player and is then knocked unconscious
					

WARNING: Contains images some might find disturbing. In this clip of actual gameplay, a user pays a prostitute for sex - which happens in graphic footage - and then punches the woman to the ground




					www.mirror.co.uk
				












						Grand Theft Auto V makes it cool to pick up – even kill – prostitutes | Cassie Rodenberg
					

Cassie Rodenberg: My students play GTA V instead of studying. It teaches them to kill prostitutes and demean women in the game – and beyond




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

Manter said:


> And Cressida fucking Dick and the Met with there ‘he wasn’t on duty’ schtick. Like oh, ok, then we’re all cool?



That is messing me up too. However given police officers _are_ able to torture, beat, coerce, bear children and deceive women into relationships as part of their jobs anyway I'm not sure it's the right hook to hang her disgusting filth hat on anyway.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 10, 2021)

editor said:


> Without getting into the whole 'do video games cause violence' thing, why the fuck would the programmers go _out of their way_ to include this kind of 'feature' in this hugely popular game?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Culture. At it's misogynistic worst.

I don't play those games either.


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I literally can't and won't watch any violence on TV/film now. I select what I watch really carefully. I have enough trauma already.


I hate it. Violence against women has become a staple of entertainment. It has to increase the number of attacks. It just has to. I don't know how the writers and producers can live with themselves.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Yes, they do. Which is awful. But it also shows that femicide is rising significantly. And yet this is in a backdrop of new laws around coercive control, post the #metoo movement and much more vocal discussions about abuse and violence against women. That bothers me. Doesn’t it bother you?


Of course it bothers me. But the vast majority of those women will have been killed by their partners or ex-partners. That’s a whole other thread. Men are statistically much more likely to be the victims of random violence from strangers.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Post was redundant. Removed


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I hate it. Violence against women has become a staple of entertainment. It has to increase the number of attacks. It just has to. I don't know how the writers and producers can live with themselves.


When you think about it, it’s weird that murder is entertainment. Not just on TV. Books too. It fascinates people.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 10, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And most killings are done by men.


I think a really small proportion of murders are by women, maybe 1%?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> When you think about it, it’s weird that murder is entertainment. Not just on TV. Books too. It fascinates people.


I find true crime docs to be the most distasteful. People will speculate ghoulishly on a very real tragedy that they have no insight into apart from a few ‘facts’.  It’s insidious and it happens everywhere including this board


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> I think a really small proportion of murders are by women, maybe 1%?




I pretty much just repeated your post almost exactly, so I removed it!


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 10, 2021)

I wonder how many other women this copper has killed.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 10, 2021)

Ms T said:


> Of course it bothers me. But the vast majority of those women will have been killed by their partners or ex-partners. That’s a whole other thread. Men are statistically much more likely to be the victims of random violence from strangers.



More likely to be the victims of serious random violence involving punching and stabbing but women get those low level _oh god am I safe constant grinding attrition attacks_ directed at them so I understand why women feel unsafe and on edge.

Much of it’s psychological and social which is still violence just doesn’t show up in the stats


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 10, 2021)

And the violence is by men. I'd be interested in s break down of sex of violent crime perpetrators.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 10, 2021)

Perhaps we should try a male lockdown. Stop the male violence epidemic. Just for a breather.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> More likely to be the victims of serious random violence involving punching and stabbing but women get those low level _oh god am I safe constant grinding attrition attacks_ directed at them so I understand why women feel unsafe and on edge.
> 
> Much of it’s psychological and social which is still violence just doesn’t show up in the stats




Also, the people who kill us are people we know well, and who know us. They’re people who have lived in our homes, eaten food with us, hugged our children, met our friends and parents. The people who are most likely to kill us are those who we’ve loved, and who have claimed to love us.

That’s a very disturbing thing to think about. To have to live with.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 11, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> And the violence is by men. I'd be interested in s break down of sex of violent crime perpetrators.








						The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
					

A summary of violent crime from the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime.



					www.ons.gov.uk


----------



## miss direct (Mar 11, 2021)

Ms T said:


> It's concerning that grisly murders, often gratuitously graphic as Pickman's model has pointed out, are considered prime time entertainment. Although I'm as guilty of watching them as the next person.



This is the main reason I barely watch TV anymore. A typical evening of TV has at least one murder mystery programme at 9. I just don't want to see it. The world is horrible enough already without that counting as "entertainment".


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2021)

Brings it home it happening so close to women from on here. Multiplied by all the occurrences that are local to so many women throughout the UK


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2021)

Khan is talking about increased police 'reassurance patrols' which seems pretty fucking tone deaf considering the identity of the suspected perpetrator.


----------



## Looby (Mar 11, 2021)

Manter said:


> But terrifyingly common to be raped, harassed, assaulted, abused.
> Twitter today has been horrifying, mostly because of the outpouring of experiences, women basically listing things and there are loads they forget and have to go back and add, because it’s so fucking much we can’t even keep track of it all. I’ve got the ones I’ve turned into funny stories, the life lessons, and the one I don’t talk about because even now 15 years later I feel sick thinking about it....
> 
> I’m oscillating between rage and sadness and exhaustion right now.


I haven’t looked at Twitter but that feels very familiar from conversations with other women on here and irl. Sometimes when I re-tell a story I realize how shocking it is but it’s become an anecdote/life lesson for me or my friends. Probably because it’s happened more than once, I wasn’t surprised it happened or there’s far worse shit that I don’t talk about.
Apart from a couple of people I know from here, no-one has mentioned it on Facebook. I’ve tried to a few times but have deleted my posts. Because the post will be angry and a bit ranty and I don’t want to know at the moment who on my timeline might out themselves as a cunt.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 11, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics
> 
> 
> A summary of violent crime from the Crime Survey for England and Wales and police recorded crime.
> ...


----------



## trashpony (Mar 11, 2021)

The Hoise of Lords  passed the domestic violence bill last nigh so it just needs royal asset now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 11, 2021)

trashpony said:


> The Hoise of Lords  passed the domestic violence bill last nigh so it just needs royal asset now.



Useless without serious work to address social housing


----------



## Manter (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> That is messing me up too. However given police officers _are_ able to torture, beat, coerce, bear children and deceive women into relationships as part of their jobs anyway I'm not sure it's the right hook to hang her disgusting filth hat on anyway.


Oh she should have been done for after Stockwell. It just jumped out at me as a super foul little mental justification


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Useless without serious work to address social housing



They’ve also not included any protection for migrant women / those subject to immigration control despite huge calls for it. They’ve also not included a definition of what a refuge is, which means that under the current rules, anyone can set a ‘refuge’ up so they can become exempt providers for housing benefit purposes. This means you’ve got lots of HMOs claiming to be supported accommodation. But these aren’t refuges, they aren’t confidential locations, they don’t have proper security, the ‘staff’ aren’t offering any support and certainly not specialist support around DV and some of them have men living there too. In Birmingham it seems to be a particular issue, with so called supported accommodation popping up all over the shop and it’s dangerous. A woman was murdered after meeting her partner (a violent offender recently released from prison) in one of these supported accommodation houses. She had a number of needs and was seen as a vulnerable adult. They should never have been in the same building. But who cares as long as you make profit off the back of homelessness eh.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 11, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> They’ve also not included any protection for migrant women / those subject to immigration control despite huge calls for it. They’ve also not included a definition of what a refuge is, which means that under the current rules, anyone can set a ‘refuge’ up so they can become exempt providers for housing benefit purposes. This means you’ve got lots of HMOs claiming to be supported accommodation. But these aren’t refuges, they aren’t confidential locations, they don’t have proper security, the ‘staff’ aren’t offering any support and certainly not specialist support around DV and some of them have men living there too. In Birmingham it seems to be a particular issue, with so called supported accommodation popping up all over the shop and it’s dangerous. A woman was murdered after meeting her partner (a violent offender recently released from prison) in one of these supported accommodation houses. She had a number of needs and was seen as a vulnerable adult. They should never have been in the same building. But who cares as long as you make profit off the back of homelessness eh.



Jesus that sounds awful.

Hotels are going to be getting fat checks for it as well. Housing women and probably kids in tiny rooms for weeks because it's an emergency


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Jesus that sounds awful.
> 
> Hotels are going to be getting fat checks for it as well. Housing women and probably kids in tiny rooms for weeks because it's an emergency



Yes. And the stuff hotels provide is often extremely poor quality; dirty, infested with bugs, no proper facilities. And yet the council repeatedly places people there. It’s so morally corrupt. And it isn’t weeks anymore, it’s months, sometimes years. There’s no social housing like you say, so nowhere for people to move onto.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

some criminology academic on the radio earlier today saying how we must keep this in perspective and 'not get hysterical' and i actually cried, which hardly ever happens.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> some criminology academic on the radio earlier today saying how we must keep this in perspective and 'not get hysterical' and i actually cried, which hardly ever happens.



I find it always helps when a man starts telling women not to get hysterical. Good choice of academic language there.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

it was a woman, she said 'as a woman i think i have the license to say this'. Didn't help. It sounded like she had misunderstood why people were on social media telling about their fear and their habitual precautions, as if she thought women were freaking out all of a sudden. No.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 11, 2021)

Jesus.


----------



## Poot (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> some criminology academic on the radio earlier today saying how we must keep this in perspective and 'not get hysterical' and i actually cried, which hardly ever happens.


Hearing Nick Robinson (I think) explaining that although women were now talking about ways to protect themselves, this sort of thing is actually very rare made me unbelievably cross this morning.


----------



## Edie (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> some criminology academic on the radio earlier today saying how we must keep this in perspective and 'not get hysterical' and i actually cried, which hardly ever happens.


In a gentle not confrontational way- Why do you think it’s affecting you so much?


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

Poot said:


> Hearing Nick Robinson (I think) explaining that although women were now talking about ways to protect themselves, this sort of thing is actually very rare made me unbelievably cross this morning.


yeah was R4.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

Edie said:


> In a gentle not confrontational way- Why do you think it’s affecting you so much?


Been wondering that myself. I think its largely proximity, i have walked that same road alone many times (moved away year before last after 8 years). It wasnt 2am she didn't cut across she park she wore sensible shoes, all those stupid details add up to give a very sharp taste of could've been me, i think, for those reasons.


----------



## Edie (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Been wondering that myself. I think its largely proximity, i have walked that same road alone many times (moved away year before last after 8 years).


Yes. Proximity makes a big difference to how how shocking news stories are in general. I mean I know there’ll be loads of other reasons too.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

The Mail reporting the cops are operating on the theory he used his ID to stop her on Covid lockdown grounds and went from there. What an utter shitstain.









						Sarah Everard police swooped on Met officer after bus CCTV evidence
					

Scotland Yard are also investigating whether Wayne Couzens used the current Covid-19 lockdown rules to stop the missing woman as she walked home to Brixton from Clapham, on March 3.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Athos (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> some criminology academic on the radio earlier today saying how we must keep this in perspective and 'not get hysterical' and i actually cried, which hardly ever happens.



My wife heard that, and came downstairs absolutely fuming.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

Athos said:


> My wife heard that, and came downstairs absolutely fuming.


Good. i did wonder, if they'd get complaints.


----------



## girasol (Mar 11, 2021)

miss direct said:


> This is the main reason I barely watch TV anymore. A typical evening of TV has at least one murder mystery programme at 9. I just don't want to see it. The world is horrible enough already without that counting as "entertainment".



I stopped watching "murder mysteries" and that sort of stuff a long time ago, even documentaries I tend to avoid.  At a certain point in my life it stopped making sense watching the genre for entertainment because the reality of it is just devastating.


----------



## Ol Nick (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good. i did wonder, if they'd get complaints.


She was trying to be reassuring by quoting data on violence against women in public spaces. I guess that doesn’t reassure everyone.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

Ol Nick said:


> She was trying to be reassuring by quoting data on violence against women in public spaces. I guess that doesn’t reassure everyone.


She seemed to be under the impression that women were freaking out because all of a sudden they are frightened, like we weren't frightened last week, this was tone deaf and infuriating. She also said that things like not walking alone, avoiding alleyways etc, are simply sensible precautions for any city dweller, nothing to lament about just do it, i think maybe she was old, that might be half an excuse for her missing the point.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Mar 11, 2021)

Going from being a 48 year old copper (presumably with no previous), to a random street kidnapper/murderer would be quite the career change if he is found guilty.


----------



## Manter (Mar 11, 2021)

Ol Nick said:


> She was trying to be reassuring by quoting data on violence against women in public spaces. I guess that doesn’t reassure everyone.


Next time I’m assaulted I’ll think to myself ‘oh well, it’s statistically unlikely he’ll go on to murder me’.... maybe that’ll make the hurt and humiliation less....


----------



## Manter (Mar 11, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Going from being a 48 year old copper (presumably with no previous), to a random street kidnapper/murderer would be quite the career change if he is found guilty.


I’ll bet you a tenner he has a track record of misogyny, DV, and/or sexual assault


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Going from being a 48 year old copper (presumably with no previous), to a random street kidnapper/murderer would be quite the career change if he is found guilty.


Everyone who worked with him day after day for years in the police they noticed nothing at all untoward about his attitude to women presumably, no concerns raised at all, i want to know about that. You don't suddenly turn into this, i don't think.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Khan is talking about increased police 'reassurance patrols' which seems pretty fucking tone deaf considering the identity of the suspected perpetrator.




Yeah...

Looks like they’re fine flailing about on this one.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> She seemed to be under the impression that women were freaking out because all of a sudden they are frightened, like we weren't frightened last week, this was tone deaf and infuriating. She also said that things like not walking alone, avoiding alleyways etc, are simply sensible precautions for any city dweller, nothing to lament about just do it, i think maybe she was old, that might be half an excuse for her missing the point.


Yeah, it sounds like she (and Nick Robinson) don't actually understand what people are freaking out about at all.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Useless without serious work to address social housing




Also useless without the tools to back it up.

My own experience, as I’ve detailed before, was that the police were essentially powerless to really help with the coercive control and emotional abuse. To the extent that several apologised, and one actually phoned me up to ask me to be a campaigner.


----------



## Sue (Mar 11, 2021)

Athos said:


> My wife heard that, and came downstairs absolutely fuming.


Me too. Very much from the 'pull yourselves together and stop making a fuss' school of thought. 😡


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I find it always helps when a man starts telling women not to get hysterical. Good choice of academic language there.




You know what....

Last night I wrote a post about this thing of being accused of hysteria and then deleted it. Because I was worried I’d be seen to be overreacting. The conditioning goes very deep.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 11, 2021)

One of the news reports I read this morning said the charge of indecent exposure was unrelated. I don’t think this is a one off crime either.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

girasol said:


> I stopped watching "murder mysteries" and that sort of stuff a long time ago, even documentaries I tend to avoid.  At a certain point in my life it stopped making sense watching the genre for entertainment because the reality of it is just devastating.




I don’t mind murder mysteries. I kind of zone out for the murder bit, it’s the puzzle I’m interested in
.
The shit i hate and actively avoid is the male on male  macho bullshit. The endless repetitive and incredibly ramped up action scenes, with men competitivey beating the crap out of each other and demonstrating their power and virility with a succession of huge weapons and enormous explosions.

I hate it more when they are fighting over an objectified woman, and I hate it more when they try to disguise the bullshit by making the woman “strong and independent”.

The one that I felt really revolted by was Kill Bill. All that ultra violence cynically given to a gorgeous sexy woman who was operating as a male cipher. And then it turned out that Tarantino had been emotionally abusive to Thurman during the making of the movies, which was, like, zero surprising.

Even though I acrively  avoid this shit, I somehow know a good deal about it.... because it’s so fucking pervasive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Everyone who worked with him day after day for years in the police they noticed nothing at all untoward about his attitude to women presumably, no concerns raised at all, i want to know about that. You don't suddenly turn into this, i don't think.


Or they shared the attitudes he displayed


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Or they shared the attitudes he displayed


exactly.


----------



## polly (Mar 11, 2021)

I'm really glad other women were angered by that R4 reporting this morning. Absolutely no understanding of how this shit is linked to the everyday experience of women, how it's the end point of so so so much other shit. I'm going to complain and urge you all to do the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

polly said:


> I'm really glad other women were angered by that R4 reporting this morning. Absolutely no understanding of how this shit is linked to the everyday experience of women, how it's the end point of so so so much other shit. I'm going to complain and urge you all to do the same.


I think that whatever the mathematical probability, describing people's concerns as hysterical is beyond the pale.


----------



## polly (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I think that whatever the mathematical probability, describing people's concerns as hysterical is beyond the pale.



Absolutely. I didn't hear that bit, which is good because I'm already so fucking angry and sad.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

SheilaNaGig same here Kill Bill made me furious, I was raging actually went to cinema to see bloody thing and left halfway


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 11, 2021)

The establishment are probably freaking out because their usual response of "we will solve this with more police" won't be as effective as it usually is and they might actually have to face a proper conversation about it


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

Interesting / gross piece here about coppers getting away with intimate crimes - in the context of domestic violence here, but you can be sure there'll be a lot that's relevant to this case.









						Nowhere to turn: Women say domestic abuse by police officers goes unpunished
					

Police officers and staff are accused of domestic abuse four times a week on average, and forces are accused of failing to properly investigate




					www.thebureauinvestigates.com


----------



## tony.c (Mar 11, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I wonder how the link was made to the arrested policeman?


Radio 4 News this morning claimed the breakthrough came from a bus video cam footage.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> Interesting / gross piece here about coppers getting away with intimate crimes - in the context of domestic violence here, but you can be sure there'll be a lot that's relevant to this case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Absolutely harrowing.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 11, 2021)

It would be good if the police would now do a review of their officer's records and try to work out which of them might be a danger to women. Because I also don't believe he'll have gone from 'totally non-misogynist perfect record officer' to doing this without warning signs. But I won't hold my breath.


----------



## izz (Mar 11, 2021)

Poot said:


> Hearing Nick Robinson (I think) explaining that although women were now talking about ways to protect themselves, this sort of thing is actually very rare made me unbelievably cross this morning.


FFS, this thing is 'actually very rare' partly due to the precautions we take and the awareness we have that it might happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It would be good if the police would now do a review of their officer's records and try to work out which of them might be a danger to women. Because I also don't believe he'll have gone from 'totally non-misogynist perfect record officer' to doing this without warning signs. But I won't hold my breath.


How would you suggest "the police" review their officers' records, I submit there's obvious potential for dodginess in that. There is no way I can readily imagine in which the police can properly allay public concerns by themselves examining their records. Not to mention that the records may not be designed to capture the evidence you think might be there.


----------



## Athos (Mar 11, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It would be good if the police would now do a review of their officer's records and try to work out which of them might be a danger to women. Because I also don't believe he'll have gone from 'totally non-misogynist perfect record officer' to doing this without warning signs. But I won't hold my breath.



They'll say their hands are tied; that they can't discipline someone unless they're found to have committed misconduct (which is likely to be pretty rare in respect of stuff that happens in private).  But, if they were serious about it, there's certainly an opportunity for some sort of intervention (even if not disciplinary) in respect of those who have multiple complaints against them alleging similar conduct, even if they haven't been upheld.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> How would you suggest "the police" review their officers' records, I submit there's obvious potential for dodginess in that. There is no way I can readily imagine in which the police can properly allay public concerns by themselves examining their records. Not to mention that the records may not be designed to capture the evidence you think might be there.


That's all true but it's worth thinking through what information they might have on their officers, and what information they don't have that they should do. And what rules there should be. Should domestic abuse allegations against an officer be passed to another force to investigate, for instance (just going from that article above).

Of course the whole barrel is rotten, but there are types of rottenness that needn't be so prevalent.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 11, 2021)

Rest in peace Sarah, and my thoughts are with your family, partner and friends.

Also, fuck the police's advice about not going out. Personally, I have never been scared of men in my life and I don't intend to start now. Yes, I take the usual precautions of having my phone on me, sticking to well lit main roads and walking tall/confidently. But I live in the UK, not Saudi fucking Arabia, and I have every right to go out when I choose. I shouldn't have to cower inside after dark just because I happen to have lady bits, and I fucking well won't either. I notice the same people who give out this frankly sexist advice are usually the same types who dismiss stories of sexism/harassment with "But we're all equal now, you don't need feminism". 

In fact, the stats show women are at higher risk from someone we know! So that means I'm more likely to be murdered by one of my housemates than some random stranger. Does that make it my fault if something happens to me at home?

I think part of the problem we still have is that even in an age of equality, we still don't really raise girls to be independent like we do boys. For example, girls often aren't shown how to read maps because it's assumed we won't need to.  (I remember buying an A-Z street atlas at 14 and teaching myself how to use it because I didn't want to have to rely on a bloke to take me everywhere). We need to be teaching every kid the same survival skills regardless of gender, whether that be self defence, spatial awareness, cooking, money management etc. Then maybe women being out alone can be normalised and not seen as "putting ourselves at risk". After all, no one tells men not to go out at night, and they're at higher risk of being beaten up, stabbed or mugged. However, no one's using that as an excuse to restrict male freedom of movement. I've lost count of the number of victims of knife crime in London just in recent weeks, never mind months, but I know all were young men. And quite rightly, no one's questioned the victim's actions but somehow this is acceptable with female victims of sexual violence? It's a blatant double standard.

And if I've said it once I must've said it loads of times, but we can't do right for doing wrong. Because if we trust a man and something happens, we were naive, but if we don't we're arrogant, man hating feminazi bitches. Thank you, patriarchy! If this guy is found guilty, Sarah will have been murdered by a copper who abused his position of trust. Bad as some police officers can be, is it really naive to expect them not to murder you???


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

I wonder if the vigil on Saturday might get called off because of the numbers of people who want to go. The Buzz page has already had 25,000 page views and the FB page says that there's 1.8k going,


----------



## donkyboy (Mar 11, 2021)

apparently he might have flashed his warrant card to her.  this may explain how easy it was for him to carry this whole thing off with ease. This is going to make things difficult. If your a woman and a bloke claiming to be from the police  shows you his card, how you now going to trust him and comply?


----------



## BusLanes (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I wonder if the vigil on Saturday might get called off because of the numbers of people who want to go. The Buzz page has already had 25,000 page views and the FB page says that there's 1.8k going,



I reckon that is quite likely. The advertising on social media is being pushed a lot too.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

He only met his wife 12 years ago apparently so their two kids must be quite young


----------



## Sue (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> He only met his wife 12 years ago apparently so their two kids must be quite young


What has this got to do with anything?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

donkyboy said:


> apparently he might have flashed his warrant card to her.  this may explain how easy it was for him to carry this whole thing off with ease. This is going to make things difficult. If your a woman and a bloke claiming to be from the police  shows you his card, how you now going to trust him and comply?


i started a thread recently reporting that the met are issuing new warrant cards to all their officers as there are so many fakes circulating. not that anyone outside the police has ever got a good look at a warrant card so is unlikely to know what one really looks like. so it'd be easy to bamboozle the unwary with any card with the mps device on it.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Mar 11, 2021)

Ms T said:


> But purenarcotic what those statistics show is you’re twice as likely to be murdered if you’re a man.



the vast majority of murderers are men full stop


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 11, 2021)

Sue said:


> What has this got to do with anything?



Violent men have female partners and children too. Who knew?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> Violent men have female partners and children too. Who knew?


who knows what they've been going through, if wc has a history of being vicious to women his family probably haven't seen the best side of him either.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> who knows what they've been going through, if wc has a history of being vicious to women his family probably haven't seen the best side of him either.



I am sure we will find out.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

Sue said:


> What has this got to do with anything?



Just that it's sad on the kids, that's all. God this thread is awful.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 11, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Maybe some of the men on this thread could reflect on why they feel the need to talk over women about their experiences.


I think that the men who are talking over the women in the way you describe are going to be the last ones to even notice, far less feel under any obligation to justify themselves


----------



## existentialist (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> Just that it's sad on the kids, that's all. God this thread is awful.


TBF, it's not the thread that's awful. It's the event that led to the creation of the thread that is awful.


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

I’m grateful for the thread, not awful, somehow comforting.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 11, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I can see both sides.  You were worried about her and wanted to make sure she was ok.
> 
> She was angry that you disregarded her wishes.
> 
> I'm trying to think what I'd do if a slightly pissed friend insisted on walking home alone.  I might do the same as you.


Yeah this. I think you meant well Mr paulee , but I think in her shoes I'd have felt a bit patronised at best, like a child who wants to walk to school alone and whose mum secretly shadows them. Your friend is an adult. At worst, it can come across creepy, like being spied on and as if you somehow don't trust her - again, she's an adult. Would you have done it with a bloke? If not, that's problematic. You could have asked her to call or text you when she got in so you'd know she'd arrived safely, there's nothing wrong with that. But yeah, I think following her home without her consent is the problem here. Again, you had good intentions, and intent matters, but it's not the only thing that matters.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

The wife's name and picture are all over the internet which really is not fair at this stage. Her age matches the age of the woman arrested but if it's not her then you can be sure the vigilantes will be out.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 11, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> That's all true but it's worth thinking through what information they might have on their officers, and what information they don't have that they should do. And what rules there should be. Should domestic abuse allegations against an officer be passed to another force to investigate, for instance (just going from that article above).
> 
> Of course the whole barrel is rotten, but there are types of rottenness that needn't be so prevalent.



That already happens as standard.

E2A - when a victim reports an officer as an offender, it’ll be given two two designated officers in the neighbouring force. They then usually notify the local DV services that if anybody calls in relation to that victim the service should only speak to those officers and should advise them of the details of any other officer calling about that victim. That’s what should happen as standard at any rate.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> The wife's name and picture are all over the internet which really is not fair at this stage.


This is kind of inevitable now though isn't it? Before everyone was totally interconnected via the internet, it might have been possible to keep a lid on who a high profile murder suspect's wife is, but not now. Fair doesn't really come into it.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> This is kind of inevitable now though isn't it? Before everyone was totally interconnected via the internet, it might have been possible to keep a lid on who a high profile murder suspect's wife is, but not now. Fair doesn't really come into it.



They've even tracked down her family in a small village in Ukraine. Awful.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> They've even tracked down her family in a small village in Ukraine. Awful.


Journos are scum a lot of the time. They've been knocking on Sarah's neighbours' doors asking for info too. Who does that? For work? Ew.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Journos are scum a lot of the time. They've been knocking on Sarah's neighbours' doors asking for info too. Who does that? For work? Ew.


the police. but then they're scum a lot of the time too.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

when I went to journalism school they taught us that _the death knock_ was the bread and butter of the trade. tbh it's one of the reasons I didn't end up working as a journalist...


----------



## girasol (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> The wife's name and picture are all over the internet which really is not fair at this stage. Her age matches the age of the woman arrested but if it's not her then you can be sure the vigilantes will be out.



I saw her photo this morning, until then it had been blurred. I think it's fucking disgusting. First of all this is still ongoing. They haven't even, officially, found evidence to link Sarah and police officer. Secondly, this woman may have been involved in this against her wishes but now her face is out there for world to see. This should not be allowed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

girasol said:


> I saw her photo this morning, until then it had been blurred. I think it's fucking disgusting. First of all this is still ongoing. They haven't even, officially, find evidence to link Sarah and police officer. Secondly, this woman may have been involved in this against her wishes but now her face is out there for world to see. This should not be allowed.


a quick search showed the mail of all papers blurring it while the sun, as you'd expect, showed her image


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a quick search showed the mail of all papers blurring it while the sun, as you'd expect, showed her image



No, the mail has multiple pics of her up..


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

And also of course, how much their house cost, as that matters in the Daily Mail world


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I wonder if the vigil on Saturday might get called off because of the numbers of people who want to go. The Buzz page has already had 25,000 page views and the FB page says that there's 1.8k going,


The police would have some cheek to try and stop it. By rights it should be held outside the bloody police station.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> when I went to journalism school they taught us that _the death knock_ was the bread and butter of the trade. tbh it's one of the reasons I didn't end up working as a journalist...


My teachers wanted me to be a journalist because I was good at English and creative writing, but it's stories like yours that made me decide not to go into that profession.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> No, the mail has multiple pics of her up..


a quick search, as i say. i am glad you can be relied upon to dive into the midden that is the daily mail


Spoiler


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

Really powerful piece from a friend (and ex urbanite)









						Sarah Everard: the anger, emotion and outrage in the wake of a terrible murder
					

Women everywhere are still feeling the shockwaves of the terrible abduction and murder of Sarah Everard, and many are telling their stories of the fear they feel every time they walk home at night.…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a quick search, as i say. i am glad you can be relied upon to dive into the midden that is the daily mail



I'm active on Twitter - there's links aplenty on there. I don't exactly read the Mail on a daily basis.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I'm active on Twitter - there's links aplenty on there. I don't exactly read the Mail on a daily basis.


You don’t have to go looking for it though


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You don’t have to go looking for it though



It's on my feed, I'm not looking for it. I assume you don't really know how Twitter works. People I'm following post shit up.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

I'm active on twitter and literally zero people I follow post daily mail links


----------



## miss direct (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> when I went to journalism school they taught us that _the death knock_ was the bread and butter of the trade. tbh it's one of the reasons I didn't end up working as a journalist...


It's one of the reasons I quit.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm active on twitter and literally zero people I follow post daily mail links



I have a diverse range of people on there


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

sure me too. diversity stops for me before we get to _people who share far-right propaganda _though.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Mar 11, 2021)

donkyboy said:


> apparently he might have flashed his warrant card to her.  this may explain how easy it was for him to carry this whole thing off with ease. This is going to make things difficult. If your a woman and a bloke claiming to be from the police  shows you his card, how you now going to trust him and comply?


Can't have been the first time, what other crimes is he guilty of?


----------



## bimble (Mar 11, 2021)

My twitter seems to have done a gender split today (the uk based people), the men are chatting about everything else, whilst the women haven’t moved on yet, from this.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> It's on my feed, I'm not looking for it. I assume you don't really know how Twitter works. People I'm following post shit up.


I’m assuming you’re looking at what’s trending instead of your direct feed. Always a bad idea.


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Mar 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Everyone who worked with him day after day for years in the police they noticed nothing at all untoward about his attitude to women presumably, no concerns raised at all, i want to know about that. You don't suddenly turn into this, i don't think.


I suspect that may have a lot to do with what is considered 'untoward'. If your working life is fuelled by 'bantz', gallows humour maybe, laughing at rape jokes, laughing at stereotypes about women, any conversation that might include 'whoarrrr' and it is probably quite hard to work out what is untoward in a colleagues attitude towards women. I live in a civilised little bubble. I am often shocked when I look at some people's friends on Facebook or Twitter. The dodgy memes, the casual misogyny (amongst other 'isms')


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

2019 calling....



> An official “super-complaint” is to be launched into the “boys’ club” culture within certain police forces that allows officers to abuse their spouses and partners without fear of arrest or prosecution.'



So what happened to this 'super complaint?









						Domestic abuse within police force to be investigated
					

The ‘boys’ club’ that protects officers has come under scrutiny




					www.theguardian.com
				



'


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 11, 2021)

The police don't call it grooming, but they do it all the time with informants and criminals. They are trained to do it. They are afforded tools that can be abused all of the time, and they keep abusing them a lot.

Dunno why I wrote this, but I keep thinking about it, so I did.


----------



## Espresso (Mar 11, 2021)

They're making a big deal of random abduction and murder being highly unusual. Dick quoted on the BBC saying it and a lot of talk about it on all kinds of social media platforms. 
I wonder if it's going to turn out that the man under arrest knew Sarah Everard.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 11, 2021)

Espresso said:


> They're making a big deal of random abduction and murder being highly unusual. Dick quoted on the BBC saying it and a lot of talk about it on all kinds of social media platforms.
> I wonder if it's going to turn out that the man under arrest knew Sarah Everard.



I highly doubt it? A 48yo diplomatic protection officer and a 33yo marketing manager? He finished his shift at Battersea at 8pm so would have possibly been driving around there about that time.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 11, 2021)

Do we really need to speculate?


----------



## Espresso (Mar 11, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I highly doubt it? A 48yo diplomatic protection officer and a 33yo marketing manager? He finished his shift at Battersea at 8pm so would have possibly been driving around there about that time.


I don't claim to know. 
I just think it's a little strange that they're making a big deal of random abductions and murder being unusual.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

The other thing that is fucking me off is how much his wife and Sarah have in common physically speaking. It's making me think of Levy Belfield. He also had a _type_.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 11, 2021)

I think it's unrealistic to expect that his wife wouldn't be named. Deal is a very small town and everyone knows everyone else. I live less than 10 miles away, and I can guarantee that the whole town would have known within less than an hour who'd been taken into custody - they took both their cars, they had a tent in the front garden, it was a massive police operation. Not to mention the massive forensic operation going on in the woodland outside Betteshanger.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 11, 2021)

His wife's Facebook page is filled with people commenting angrily on the murder.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Mar 11, 2021)

Argonia said:


> His wife's Facebook page is filled with people commenting angrily on the murder.


This is when I really hate Facebook. Back in my hometown, someone got sent down for paedophilia. His ex partner is still having to deal with pretty disgusting Facebook hate. She's a mother of two small kids, she's really young. I reported the hate pages set up and Facebook don't take them down. Way to go making the partner pay for something they didn't do. and had nothing to do with.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

Argonia said:


> His wife's Facebook page is filled with people commenting angrily on the murder.


Got to wonder why the met haven't locked all their social media accounts down right away, it's pretty obvious stuff like this is likely to happen.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

On the FB thing. I had a look and shouldn't have. There are people commenting on pictures of the kids with all kinds of 'die/evil/murders/poor kids/hope you get the death penalty' shit. 

If the wife has been arrested she won't have access but the police can get access and close it down ffs!


----------



## salem (Mar 11, 2021)

It sounds like the FB stuff is terrible but I don't think the police can or should be able to get access to tweak peoples social media that easily.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> 2019 calling....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Nothing happened shocka!

I was telling my son earlier today about the Reclaim The Streets campaign that started in the 1970s.  In those days the women involved were considered to be hardened, radical femininists and absolutely slagged off by the media.    But it seems that very little has changed.  Women are still having to campaign to "reclaim the streets".


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

salem said:


> It sounds like the FB stuff is terrible but I don't think the police can or should be able to get access to tweak peoples social media that easily.



It's common. I know of people who have been arrested and the police have taken control of their FB account as part of the investigation.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> This is kind of inevitable now though isn't it? Before everyone was totally interconnected via the internet, it might have been possible to keep a lid on who a high profile murder suspect's wife is, but not now. Fair doesn't really come into it.



There are legal restrictions though.  But I agree it's very hard to enforce the letter of the law in the age of social media.  The press do have to be careful though.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Mar 11, 2021)

As do the general public, at some point there'll be a ban on reporting and that'll include Facebook. Some of these twats can't help themselves and might get into trouble. How posting on Facebook could send you to jail


----------



## salem (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> It's common. I know of people who have been arrested and the police have taken control of their FB account as part of the investigation.


They can get a warrant and get access to it sure but they're not going to modify it to protect a suspects feelings/dignity.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

Ms T said:


> There are legal restrictions though.  But I agree it's very hard to enforce the letter of the law in the age of social media.  The press do have to be careful though.


The current legal restrictions are not really fit for purpose IMO. I dunno what the answer is, but what's the point in preventing the media from publishing information that anyone can find in 30 seconds on twitter?


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> Got to wonder why the met haven't locked all their social media accounts down right away, it's pretty obvious stuff like this is likely to happen.


They'd have to contact Facebook and Facebook rarely give a shit.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> On the FB thing. I had a look and shouldn't have. There are people commenting on pictures of the kids with all kinds of 'die/evil/murders/poor kids/hope you get the death penalty' shit.
> 
> If the wife has been arrested she won't have access but the police can get access and close it down ffs!


I made the mistake of looking. There photos of several young kids playing in the snow followed by a torrent of 'hang 'em high' hate.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> They'd have to contact Facebook and Facebook rarely give a shit.


I know they don't give a shit about anything you or I might want them to do, but I'd imagine they're more responsive to the police officers investigating the highest profile murder case in the country for some years?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Nothing happened shocka!
> 
> I was telling my son earlier today about the Reclaim The Streets campaign that started in the 1970s.  In those days the women involved were considered to be hardened, radical femininists and absolutely slagged off by the media.    But it seems that very little has changed.  Women are still having to campaign to "reclaim the streets".


this is apparently 'reclaim these streets' tho the -se seems to have been dropped by many journalists


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> I know they don't give a shit about anything you or I might want them to do, but I'd imagine they're more responsive to the police officers investigating the highest profile murder case in the country for some years?


I'm not going to disrupt this thread by talking about Facebook, but they have a long record of leaving poisonous, illegal and sometimes downright dangerous material online for as long as it suits them. The kind of shit that gets taken down in minutes here. And that's my last comment on them.


----------



## salem (Mar 11, 2021)

Probably the best thing to do is report those posts directly to facebook and their automated systems might block it


----------



## baldrick (Mar 11, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The police don't call it grooming, but they do it all the time with informants and criminals. They are trained to do it. They are afforded tools that can be abused all of the time, and they keep abusing them a lot.
> 
> Dunno why I wrote this, but I keep thinking about it, so I did.


Yes. They call it building a rapport but it's the same thing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

salem said:


> They can get a warrant and get access to it sure but they're not going to modify it to protect a suspects feelings/dignity.



Not true. I know someone who was wrongly suspected of a serious crime. The police took charge of his FB account  whilst investigating him. He gave them access to prove he had nothing to hide. Whilst they had control of it they also deleted all the hateful messages locals/randoms were sending him. They then deactivated his account and left it to him to re-activate if he wanted.


----------



## salem (Mar 11, 2021)

OK, seems like a massive can of worms to me though


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm not going to disrupt this thread by talking about Facebook, but they have a long record of leaving poisonous, illegal and sometimes downright dangerous material online for as long as it suits them. The kind of shit that gets taken down in minutes here. And that's my last comment on them.


I don't disagree with any of this, but it seems pretty unlikely that they wouldn't respond swiftly to any official requests from the cops in connection to this case. Hard to imagine what might _suit them_ in not doing? Ignoring peons is par for the course, obviously.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

salem said:


> OK, seems like a massive can of worms to me though



I agree but SM is key to lots of investigations now and if I were the fuzz I'd be looking too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm not going to disrupt this thread by talking about Facebook, but they have a long record of leaving poisonous, illegal and sometimes downright dangerous material online for as long as it suits them. The kind of shit that gets taken down in minutes here. And that's my last comment on them.


And why shouldn't they leave potential evidence up? Could be a target-busting bundle of evidence for the cops for these people making malicious communications. In a year in which arrests are almost certainly rather down on normal levels things like this will allow them to make up ground on their quotas


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 11, 2021)

Just seen a report that the suspect has been rushed to hospital with head injuries after collapsing in his cell.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And why shouldn't they leave potential evidence up? Could be a target-busting bundle of evidence for the cops for these people making malicious communications. In a year in which arrests are almost certainly rather down on normal levels things like this will allow them to make up ground on their quotas


I wish you'd respected what I said in post #448, but - FYI - there is no reason why the evidence can't be kept intact but also removed from public view.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Just seen a report that the suspect has been rushed to hospital with head injuries after collapsing in his cell.




Sounds familiar:



> The incident occurred while Couzens was spending a second night in custody at the police station. It is understood he was alone at the time he suffered the head injuries.


----------



## Manter (Mar 11, 2021)

I’ve been trying to think of why the statistically unlikely thing has pissed me off _so_ much.

I think it’s partly the idea that statistics are some some of neutral force, as opposed to just info about people pulled together by people, and as likely to be flawed, partisan etc as anything else. Whereas women know that stats on violence against women are guesswork and fantasy. So for it to be talked about as some magic force that should make us shut up and sit down is.... Insulting


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I wish you'd respected what I said in post #448, but - FYI - there is no reason why the evidence can't be kept intact but also removed from public view.


I did respect what you said, about your not commenting further. I didn't realise that meant no one could quote your post and comment on it. There's likely a great queue of FB bollocks for the mods there to deal with and it's entirely possible much of what appears hasn't been reported. Plus I wouldn't be surprised if the cops said hold up from taking that lot down for a bit, we'll get more people like that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2021)

So at last a filth learns what it's like to get your head kicked in in an empty cell.


----------



## Athos (Mar 11, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Not true. I know someone who was wrongly suspected of a serious crime. The police took charge of his FB account  whilst investigating him. He gave them access to prove he had nothing to hide. Whilst they had control of it they also deleted all the hateful messages locals/randoms were sending him. They then deactivated his account and left it to him to re-activate if he wanted.



I suspect they'd claim his consent (evidenced by providing the login) extended (explicitly or implicitly) to them managing the account. Because I don't think they'd have any power to modify someone's account without their consent, and it's a _prima facie_ breach of their article 8 rights.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 11, 2021)

Manter said:


> I’ve been trying to think of why the statistically unlikely thing has pissed me off _so_ much.
> 
> I think it’s partly the idea that statistics are some some of neutral force, as opposed to just info about people pulled together by people, and as likely to be flawed, partisan etc as anything else. Whereas women know that stats on violence against women are guesswork and fantasy. So for it to be talked about as some magic force that should make us shut up and sit down is.... Insulting


The thing that irritates me about the "statistically unlikely" thing is that it reduces a profound human experience (fear of assault) to a mere percentage chance. There's no acknowledgement of the very real feelings and emotions that this incident, rare as it might be, will have aroused in a very large number of people.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Mar 11, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Just seen a report that the suspect has been rushed to hospital with head injuries after collapsing in his cell.



Did he fall down the stairs?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Did he fall down the stairs?


The notoriously slippery steps


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2021)

He’s back in custody now.  If he manages to take himself out on his own terms, or if some fuckheaded toxic violent men in the police force kill him before he stands trial then male violence will have won again. He needs to stay alive and fucking face what he has done, face her relatives in court, face what he’s done to his poor bloody children, and his family.  No more violence for this man.  It’s too bloody easy.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 11, 2021)

Yep, no early escapes


----------



## existentialist (Mar 11, 2021)

I wondered if he might be setting himself up nicely for an insanity defence.


----------



## Edie (Mar 11, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> He’s back in custody now.  If he manages to take himself out on his own terms, or if some fuckheaded toxic violent men in the police force kill him before he stands trial then male violence will have won again. He needs to stay alive and fucking face what he has done, face her relatives in court, face what he’s done to his poor bloody children, and his family.  No more violence for this man.  It’s too bloody easy.


Hear hear. Plus if you are not safe in police custody, in prison, in secure psychiatric hospitals, when the state has your freedom and your life in its hands, none of us are safe. Cheer at someone’s beating now, you can’t condemn the next SpookyFrank


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 11, 2021)

Whilst there may be lower ranked plod up for giving him a kicking, the higher ranks are going to want him to stand trial. This is a massive PR nightmare for the Met, him meeting an untimely end in a police cell is just going to make it even worse.
I can't imagine his life in prison is going to be something to look forward too nd he must know that, I suspect he probably reckons death is his best and probably only way out at this point.


----------



## killer b (Mar 11, 2021)

I was wondering if the Met might be setting themselves up for a neat little judge led enquiry rather than a lengthy and messy jury trial when allsorts might come out tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Edie said:


> Hear hear. Plus if you are not safe in police custody, in prison, in secure psychiatric hospitals, when the state has your freedom and your life in its hands, none of us are safe. Cheer at someone’s beating now, you can’t condemn the next SpookyFrank


None of us are safe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was wondering if the Met might be setting themselves up for a neat little judge led enquiry rather than a lengthy and messy jury trial when allsorts might come out tbh.


Trial - the likely worst that comes out is the met knew about his proclivities. Inquiry - maybe there's a lot of very dodgy things going on among the armed police. One loner or rotten apple who they'll argue fell through the gaps v potential systemic failings. I think they'd prefer the lesser reputational damage a trial might bring out. And if he pleads guilty then (from the met pov) so much the better


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> He’s back in custody now.  If he manages to take himself out on his own terms, or if some fuckheaded toxic violent men in the police force kill him before he stands trial then male violence will have won again. He needs to stay alive and fucking face what he has done, face her relatives in court, face what he’s done to his poor bloody children, and his family.  No more violence for this man.  It’s too bloody easy.



Far, far too easy for the met as well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2021)

Edie said:


> Hear hear. Plus if you are not safe in police custody, in prison, in secure psychiatric hospitals, when the state has your freedom and your life in its hands, none of us are safe. Cheer at someone’s beating now, you can’t condemn the next SpookyFrank



I'm not cheering anything. I want to see both him and his employers held to account for this. In so far as that's possible when poacher and gamekeeper are one and the same.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 11, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I wondered if he might be setting himself up nicely for an insanity defence.



I did wonder when he would cite PTSD or something....we shall have to wait, but they better keep him alive.


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2021)

Personally, the fact that he’s a copper is a sideshow.  This doesn’t seem like a valid stick to beat the Met with (and fuck knows there are more than enough valid reasons to attack the met).

Men like this don’t need to be cops to use and dispose of women’s lives, any more than John Worboys needed to be a cabbie. It might provide opportunity but there have been countless other men who have taken and murdered the women they saw. The next man that does this will have a different job and do it a different way. The job isn’t the fucking problem.

The problem is male violence.


----------



## Manter (Mar 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Trial - the likely worst that comes out is the met knew about his proclivities. Inquiry - maybe there's a lot of very dodgy things going on among the armed police. One loner or rotten apple who they'll argue fell through the gaps v potential systemic failings. I think they'd prefer the lesser reputational damage a trial might bring out. And if he pleads guilty then (from the met pov) so much the better


It’s always the fucking rotten apple excuse, isn’t it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2021)

Manter said:


> It’s always the fucking rotten apple excuse, isn’t it?


Maybe it's time to get rid of the auld apples and the auld barrel and get new ones in which aren't worm-ridden or putrescent


----------



## little_legs (Mar 11, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> I'd like to share something that happened two summers ago.
> 
> We had people round due to some of our mutual friends being back in London. Drinks and food - started late Saturday afternoon went on till early Sunday am.
> When it cake to leaving time, one of my wife's uni friends who came on her own, wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber etc to take her back to her Air B'nB, which was in Battersea. She was adamant that she could 'find her own way' etc.
> ...



fucking LOL _wouldn't take the offer of a shared Uber _after food and drinks_, _because you know Uber drivers had never sexually assaulted and kidnapped passengers.


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

It was absolutely heart-breaking seeing all the 'Missing' posters for Sarah all around Brixton today.


----------



## magneze (Mar 11, 2021)

Went out for a walk earlier and they're all around here too


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

magneze said:


> Went out for a walk earlier and they're all around here too


It's that sense of knowing that her friends had put them up when they thought she might still be alive. I got a bit tearful.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 11, 2021)

So painfully predictable:









						Sarah Everard suspect: Met faces inquiry over indecent exposure claim
					

Force facing investigation into handling of incident days before woman’s disappearance




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 11, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> So painfully predictable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ahh.  Well that might be the stick.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 11, 2021)

I drove past a missing cat poster today and thought about all the missing posters for Sarah that must be still up. It might be a kindness to take them down. I'm sure her friends can't bear to, but it must be awful for them seeing them everywhere.

So he was identified for indecent exposure, and he was still doing his job? Not suspended or anything? Fuck the Met, they really don't care about women do they? 

But in a way, I'm glad. Because now we have clear fucking evidence that blokes that force women to look at their cocks can be dangerous. Flashing is so often dismissed as a bit of a harmless crime. It's not.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 11, 2021)

I'll be honest, I put my head around, and I got to Athos post earlier and feeling very sensitive about still really posting again on urban, it put me off. And don't someone say 'why mention it', I fucking will. Men don't need to 'identify as a woman' to perpetuate abuse against women - it's so much more fucking straightforward than that.

All very sad, an appalling abuse by the looks of things by the alleged (not that I personally have much time for the Police in many ways - they certainly were fucking unhelpful when I was assaulted many years ago because of '_well, you know, hint of not being female enough'_). Some dreadful tone deaf stuff from the Police Commissioner, the usual 'women might need to be careful where they walk/what they wear/at that time' shit which is just apologism for the shit behaviour of men frankly. I'm sure social media is grim too in parts and although I feel lonely/disconnect by not being on social media, I think actually there are times like this when I'm glad I'm not.

I am buoyed, however, by the voices and experiences now really being heard from women in the wake of it.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 11, 2021)

Did Cressida Dick actually say that women should stay at home or is it Chinese Whispers?


----------



## Athos (Mar 11, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> I'll be honest, I put my head around, and I got to Athos post earlier and feeling very sensitive about still really posting again on urban, it put me off. And don't someone say 'why mention it', I fucking will. Men don't need to 'identify as a woman' to perpetuate abuse against women - it's so much more fucking straightforward than that.
> 
> All very sad, an appalling abuse by the looks of things by the alleged (not that I personally have much time for the Police in many ways - they certainly were fucking unhelpful when I was assaulted many years ago because of '_well, you know, hint of not being female enough'_). Some dreadful tone deaf stuff from the Police Commissioner, the usual 'women might need to be careful where they walk/what they wear/at that time' shit which is just apologism for the shit behaviour of men frankly. I'm sure social media is grim too in parts and although I feel lonely/disconnect by not being on social media, I think actually there are times like this when I'm glad I'm not.
> 
> I am buoyed, however, by the voices and experiences now really being heard from women in the wake of it.



I'm sorry I upset you.  I wasn't having a pop at trans people; the point was about how easily devious men determined to harm women could get around the proposed measure.  But I didn't pursue it, because, as you say, currently they don't even need to do that to attack women.  Sorry again.


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 11, 2021)

For a woman who's managed to get to the position she has Cressida Dick seems to have a talent for putting her foot in her mouth. Her spouting on this morning about how rare serial killers are was a masterpiece in being insensitive. Yes she right, they are a miniscule percentage of the population and your chances of dying at the hands of one are indeed miniscule.
Yet she still manages to miss the point, This guy is likely to be the only potential serial killer who is a  cop out there but there aren't supposed to be any. The public have a very reasonable expectation that the vetting process would weed them out. This isn't in the same league as nicking a box of donuts.  The fact that he is probably the only one who got through is irrelevant. If there was one, there is no way of being sure there aren't others.
The damage this will do to public confidence in the Met (and every other force for that matter) is incalcuable and will have an effect for years to come.


----------



## Biddlybee (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> It's that sense of knowing that her friends had put them up when they thought she might still be alive. I got a bit tearful.


Between morning and afternoon school run quite a few round by me had been taken down.


----------



## Winot (Mar 11, 2021)

Ms T said:


> Did Cressida Dick actually say that women should stay at home or is it Chinese Whispers?



The reports I’ve heard are that the police going house to house said that. I haven’t heard that CD said it personally. Pretty awful if she did.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Mar 11, 2021)

editor said:


> It was absolutely heart-breaking seeing all the 'Missing' posters for Sarah all around Brixton today.



It does feel especially sad, after the developments of the last few days.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2021)

For those like me who live in area Cressida Dick is remembered as the officer who ordered an innocent Brazilian to be shot. Did not do her career any damage.

She comes from privileged middle class background and on basis of that was fast tracked to promotion.

As a member of the establishment she got to were she is today.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 11, 2021)

As predicted....


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 11, 2021)

Biddlybee said:


> Between morning and afternoon school run quite a few round by me had been taken down.



I’ve taken down a few. As trashpony says, it feels like a very small kindness.


----------



## jakejb79 (Mar 11, 2021)

Have the human remains been confirmed as her yet? I know it's being referred to as a death, but still no public confirmation it's her remains that were found


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> As predicted....
> 
> View attachment 258355View attachment 258356



That is the Met for you.

This would come from the top. That is Cressida Dick. Imo this is a political decision taken by the Met. I really object to this.

Despite pandemic people should be allowed to have peaceful demonstration on an issue that is very important.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2021)

BTW Bindmans and Doughty street chambers do a lot of good work.


----------



## baldrick (Mar 11, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> As predicted....
> 
> View attachment 258355View attachment 258356


The crowdfunder for the £30k is doing pretty well. I have donated a tenner. Fuck the Met. 









						Help us to Reclaim These Streets!
					

Organiser of “Reclaim These Streets”, a socially distanced vigil which is planned to take place on Clapham Common for one hour from sunset on Saturday.




					www.crowdjustice.com


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Mar 11, 2021)

It's depressing to see a well-meaning Guardian article about men asking how to behave when out so as not to freak out women. The advice about hanging a long way back from women on their own, crossing the road if you must catch up with them and so on is exactly the same as  nearly 50 years ago. I suppose it bears repeating but even so it was common sense back then.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 11, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> So painfully predictable:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



fucking hell, 5 investigations:

1 about how the Met responded to the initial report of her going missing.
2 about how they arrested the officer
3 about how he got injured in custody
4 about how she went missing in the first place
5 about how the Met swept an indecent exposure allegation under the rug

#4 sounds like he was in uniform, maybe that's why CD keeps saying he was off duty.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2021)

baldrick said:


> The crowdfunder for the £30k is doing pretty well. I have donated a tenner. Fuck the Met.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just put a tenner in.


----------



## ash (Mar 11, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Just put a tenner in.


 £32,000 now ✊


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 11, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> As predicted....
> 
> View attachment 258355View attachment 258356



Fuck the Police.


----------



## baldrick (Mar 11, 2021)

ash said:


> £32,000 now ✊


Bloody hell! It was on 18k when I donated


----------



## editor (Mar 11, 2021)

Buzzed: Crowdfunder launched as Met Police declare Sarah Everard vigil in Clapham Common unlawful


----------



## SovietArmy (Mar 11, 2021)

Apologies if something I missed what is money to do with that?


----------



## Athos (Mar 11, 2021)

SovietArmy said:


> Apologies if something I missed what is money to do with that?


To cover the potential costs of litigation to challenge the police's decision (including the possibility of having to pay the MPS's costs of the claim fails).


----------



## Kanda (Mar 11, 2021)

jakejb79 said:


> Have the human remains been confirmed as her yet? I know it's being referred to as a death, but still no public confirmation it's her remains that were found



Anyone?? ^^


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 11, 2021)

Kanda said:


> Anyone?? ^^


here isn't the best place to find out but the answer is no


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

Kanda said:


> Anyone?? ^^



It hasn't been confirmed or reported yet. You guys have access to the same info as us.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> For a woman who's managed to get to the position she has Cressida Dick seems to have a talent for putting her foot in her mouth. Her spouting on this morning about how rare serial killers are was a masterpiece in being insensitive. Yes she right, they are a miniscule percentage of the population and your chances of dying at the hands of one are indeed miniscule.
> Yet she still manages to miss the point, This guy is likely to be the only potential serial killer who is a  cop out there but there aren't supposed to be any. The public have a very reasonable expectation that the vetting process would weed them out. This isn't in the same league as nicking a box of donuts.  The fact that he is probably the only one who got through is irrelevant. If there was one, there is no way of being sure there aren't others.
> The damage this will do to public confidence in the Met (and every other force for that matter) is incalcuable and will have an effect for years to come.


She didn’t say that. She said it was incredibly rare to be abducted from the streets of London and murdered. There was no mention of serial killers. And everyone needs to remember that the police officer has not been convicted.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 11, 2021)

Cancel Cressida Dickhead


----------



## OvalhouseDB (Mar 11, 2021)

Winot said:


> The reports I’ve heard are that the police going house to house said that. I haven’t heard that CD said it personally. Pretty awful if she did.


She didn’t say it in her announcement last night.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2021)

SovietArmy said:


> Apologies if something I missed what is money to do with that?



Organisers of protests can now be fined stupid amounts of money.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Organisers of protests can now be fined stupid amounts of money.


The fundraising isn't to pay fines; it's to find a legal challenge.


----------



## girasol (Mar 12, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Organisers of protests can now be fined stupid amounts of money.



what if there's no official organiser and people just turn up? . I know it's a moot point right now, but...


----------



## girasol (Mar 12, 2021)

Winot said:


> The reports I’ve heard are that the police going house to house said that. I haven’t heard that CD said it personally. Pretty awful if she did.



This was actually happening, according to my grand daughter's mum - she lives in the area and said she felt terrified about the whole situation, especially as she has a young daughter too.  The police were knocking and telling people to stay in, as well as looking for potential witnesses.


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

I was talking to my friend last night and she said the thing that's got to her most is that the photo of him, the one with the beard, he looks just like the kind of men she's been meeting for walks all this past year from online dating. The habitual thing of give me a text let me know you're ok which we do every time she's met one of these, we never say out loud why it is we do that. In her mind i suppose murderers didn't previously look just like the sort of smiley bearded men in check shirts that she goes for.


----------



## Kanda (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> here isn't the best place to find out but the answer is no





Rutita1 said:


> It hasn't been confirmed or reported yet. You guys have access to the same info as us.



Sorry, I had an hour between getting home from work and going to bed. Didn't have time to dig around.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

Reading some of the threads on FB on this, it's all getting a bit "All Lives Matter"


----------



## baldrick (Mar 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Reading some of the threads on FB on this, it's all getting a bit "All Lives Matter"


Women can't have anything for themselves, don't you know this by now?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Women can't have anything for themselves, don't you know this by now?


Oh, I know it. But it's always rather depressing to see it being perpetuated.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

Police are apparently doing extensive searches in and around Dover where Couzens family is from - there's miles of old tunnels in the cliffs


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Police are apparently doing extensive searches in and around Dover where Couzens family is from - there's miles of old tunnels in the cliffs



I wonder if that's for further evidence in respect of Sarah Everard's disappearance, or something else i.e. other offences.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

Athos said:


> I wonder if that's for further evidence in respect of Sarah Everard's disappearance, or something else i.e. other offences.


Who knows? There's rumours his brother (also a copper) is a bit dodgy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Ms T said:


> She didn’t say that. She said it was incredibly rare to be abducted from the streets of London and murdered. There was no mention of serial killers. And everyone needs to remember that the police officer has not been convicted.


Yeh we have the formality of the trial to go through yet and having just woken up not sure he's been charged even


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 12, 2021)

Is allowing an officer accused of a sex crime to remain on duty with a gun and the power to detain people official Met policy, or the result of a fuck-up? Either way, whoever's responsible should be fired and charged in connection with their gross negligence.


----------



## shaman75 (Mar 12, 2021)

Not possible to verify these allegations, but I think worth bearing in mind.  Could turn out to be bigger than hanging one 'bad apple' out to dry.








			https://twitter.com/STUFFitsocial/with_replies


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is allowing an officer accused of a sex crime to remain on duty with a gun and the power to detain people official Met policy, or the result of a fuck-up? Either way, whoever's responsible should be fired and charged in connection with their gross negligence.


Accessory to murder perhaps


----------



## editor (Mar 12, 2021)

This is what women are up against


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

shaman75 said:


> Not possible to verify these allegations, but I think worth bearing in mind.  Could turn out to be bigger than hanging one 'bad apple' out to dry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh god that is awful. If it turns out she is right WTAF and if she's wrong and it's  coincidence, that poor woman. So much trauma.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Is allowing an officer accused of a sex crime to remain on duty with a gun and the power to detain people official Met policy, or the result of a fuck-up? Either way, whoever's responsible should be fired and charged in connection with their gross negligence.



The police authority has quite a wide discretion, and it'd depend on all the circumstances e.g. strength of _prima facie_ case against them, whether they were on duty/in uniform etc.  But, usually they'd be expected to consider redeployment before suspension (since the latter has to be on full pay); for instance to a desk job that's not public facing.  Don't know what happened in this case.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2021)

editor said:


> This is what women are up against
> 
> View attachment 258385


The guy asking where the vigil is for male victims of violent crime must not have bothered going to any of the vigils which happen after pretty much every fatal stabbing I've read about in recent years, for one. Wonder why.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Oh god that is awful. If it turns out she is right WTAF and if she's wrong and it's  coincidence, that poor woman. So much trauma.



Given there's screenshots in which this woman (who seems keen to claim credit for the bus CCTV breakthrough) previously described her attacker as a black man (whom she seems to 'know' targets blondes and is part of a Kent based abduction gang that uses specially equipped crime cars) I suspect the two aren't linked.


----------



## Part 2 (Mar 12, 2021)

Speculators may wish to go to the websleuth boards where there's 400 pages of posts to get through, including a poster who appears to live at the back of the house being searched. There'some interesting stuff that I won't start repeating here but it seems reporters are getting at least some of the stories from there.


----------



## xenon (Mar 12, 2021)

Athos said:


> The police authority has quite a wide discretion, and it'd depend on all the circumstances e.g. strength of _prima facie_ case against them, endure they were on duty/in uniform etc.  But, usually they'd be expected to consider redeployment before suspension (since the latter has to be on full pay); for instance to a desk job that's not public facing.  Don't know what happened in this case.



Whether they were on duty at the time should obviously not come into it. If accused of such a serious offence at work or not should mean suspencion whilst investigated. That's so blatantly obvious, I wonder if I've missed something.

The on duty at the time bit, is only relevant re conviction and stiffer sentence IMO.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2021)

Is there something in the news about this guy having been identified as a suspect in the flashing incident before the kidnapping, or is everyone just assuming that's the case?


----------



## xenon (Mar 12, 2021)

I don't know. The speculation is all grim and unhelpful too. I was just disagreeing with something athos said on the general point.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> Is there something in the news about this guy having been identified as a suspect in the flashing incident before the kidnapping, or is everyone just assuming that's the case?


The Met received the report on Feb 28th that a man had exposed himself in a fast food restaurant. Their conduct in that investigation has been referred to the IOPC so that seems to suggest he had been. 

Incidentally, someone speculated they might have known one another - there is no evidence of this according to 'police sources'. But would not confirm a report that her phone hasn't been found


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

xenon said:


> I don't know. The speculation is all grim and unhelpful too. I was just disagreeing with something athos said on the general point.


Tbh the entire thing is grim 

But we've been speculating for many many years about all sorts of things, it's what we do - even the condemnations of speculation are by rote.


----------



## Poot (Mar 12, 2021)

editor said:


> This is what women are up against
> 
> View attachment 258385


Yeah, you should see the comments sections on local papers right now. It's just a load of old men telling women they're wrong. Wrong for going out at night, wrong for complaining, wrong for this vigil, wrong to point the finger at men, wrong, wrong, wrong. You could write a script for this stuff, really.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

_The police watchdog has launched an investigation into whether Metropolitan Police officers “responded appropriately” to a report of indecent exposure following referrals linked to the arrest of the suspect in the Sarah Everard case.

The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said its independent probe follows a “conduct referral” from the force in relation to two officers, which was received on Wednesday night.

*This is linked to four other referrals, and all are connected to the arrest of the serving Metropolitan Police officer currently being held* on suspicion of kidnapping and murdering 33-year-old Ms Everard and for a separate allegation of indecent exposure, the IOPC said._


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the entire thing is grim
> 
> But we've been speculating for many many years about all sorts of things, it's what we do - even the condemnations of speculation are by rote.


Doesn’t mean we should do it


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 12, 2021)

Poot said:


> Yeah, you should see the comments sections on local papers right now. It's just a load of old men telling women they're wrong. Wrong for going out at night, wrong for complaining, wrong for this vigil, wrong to point the finger at men, wrong, wrong, wrong. You could write a script for this stuff, really.



yuck.


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2021)

trashpony said:


> The Met received the report on Feb 28th that a man had exposed himself in a fast food restaurant. Their conduct in that investigation has been referred to the IOPC so that seems to suggest he had been.


I'm not sure if it does tbh. It could 'just' mean that it wasn't taken seriously enough or responded to quickly enough or any number of other things.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'm not sure if it does tbh. It could 'just' mean that it wasn't taken seriously enough or responded to quickly enough or any number of other things.


True. I know nothing of police procedure except from what I've learned from Line of Duty


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Doesn’t mean we should do it


Whether we should or not we do do it, we have been doing it for more than 20 years, and it seems unlikely we'll stop any time soon, pious admonitions to the contrary notwithstanding


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Whether we should or not we do do it, we have been doing it for more than 20 years, and it seems unlikely we'll stop any time soon, pious admonitions to the contrary notwithstanding


It is perfectly possible.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> It is perfectly possible.


Yes. But is unlikely in the extreme


----------



## baldrick (Mar 12, 2021)

Is anyone planning to go to one of the various vigils that have been organised for tomorrow? I think I will.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

xenon said:


> Whether they were on duty at the time should obviously not come into it. If accused of such a serious offence at work or not should mean suspencion whilst investigated. That's so blatantly obvious, I wonder if I've missed something.
> 
> The on duty at the time bit, is only relevant re conviction and stiffer sentence IMO.



I'm not saying that's right; just what it is.  For what it's worth, I'd agree with you that not being on duty ought not to prevent suspension in respect of such serious allegations.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 12, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Is anyone planning to go to one of the various vigils that have been organised for tomorrow? I think I will.


Are there various ones? I assumed there was just a local one, am a bit out the loop bar what's been discussed on this thread.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> _The police watchdog has launched an investigation into whether Metropolitan Police officers “responded appropriately” to a report of indecent exposure following referrals linked to the arrest of the suspect in the Sarah Everard case.
> 
> The Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) said its independent probe follows a “conduct referral” from the force in relation to two officers, which was received on Wednesday night.
> 
> *This is linked to four other referrals, and all are connected to the arrest of the serving Metropolitan Police officer currently being held* on suspicion of kidnapping and murdering 33-year-old Ms Everard and for a separate allegation of indecent exposure, the IOPC said._



It's a bit confusing but it seems two of the referrals relate to Couzens' conduct (the alleged murder and indecent exposure), two relate to the police response to those incidents (one for each), and one relates to his injury in custody.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Is anyone planning to go to one of the various vigils that have been organised for tomorrow? I think I will.


I hope you'll do us a report, be very interested to hear about the vigil/s


----------



## killer b (Mar 12, 2021)

I thought this thread was interesting, wondered what people thought about it (it echoes some stuff mrs b was talking about on the phone last night too tbf)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2021)

this makes me so angry. goes without saying obvs. heard something yesterday that makes me want to go postal with the met on this. fuckers


----------



## baldrick (Mar 12, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Are there various ones? I assumed there was just a local one, am a bit out the loop bar what's been discussed on this thread.


In case anyone else is interested


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

Imagine having to assess potential threats on the street every time you go anywhere. Like being in a war zone full of mines and snipers. Even if you're not attacked the accumulated stress must be ruinous to your mental health. If men had to deal with it I'm sure it wouldn't be long before solutions could be found.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> I thought this thread was interesting, wondered what people thought about it (it echoes some stuff mrs b was talking about on the phone last night too tbf)





I don’t panic.

But I’m always making risk assessments. Looking ahead to see if there’s an alley entrance I should give a wide berth to, walking wide from the wall when I go round a corner onto a darker street, walking in the middle of the street if the pavements are narrow, checking for the nearest open shops whenever I’m in an area I’m not  familiar with, if a car slows down I put  my back against the wall or change direction, checking the convex mirrors in the tube station at night but not bothering in daytime, standing backwards on the up escalator to see who’s coming up behind me (because they may follow me out of the station), not stopping to check directions or for any other reason without making sure I’m not isolated etc etc.

How about this. Men reading this, the next time you’re out about, switch on this kind of risk assessment and see what it feels like. See how tiring it is, how much energy it uses up and how it affects your mood. And every time you notice that you've stopped doing it, please realise that most of the women you know do this as a matter of constancy, always and automatically, running the maths in the background, and we’ve been been doing it since our teen years.





One of the things I’ve been thinking about in recent days is not the normal run of the mill bullshit that I usually turn the volume down on, but the fewer but more dangerous times I’ve been approached by men who had something more sinister in mind.

Like, just one instance: I was walking along Coldharbour Lane, wearing high heels because id been out for the night. I’d had a drink or two and I wasn’t in a great mood (things were bad at home). I missed my footing and went down on my hip, immediately got to my feet and switched my attention to “alert” because now I’d signalled that I was “falling down drunk” and therefore easy pickings. Right on cue, a man approached me, he appeared so quietly and so swiftly it was as if he’d materialised out of the air, just waiting for a vulnerable woman to click his intentions into actions. He walked in front of me, I changed direction, looked down, kept waking, he propositioned me, offered to walk me home, put his hand on my arm, and then he put him his foot in front of mine, clearly intending to trip me up. Fortunately, my shin made contact rather than my foot, so I stopped still and held my position, actually leaving my weight against his leg. Because he had hold of my arm. I was stuck. So I had to front it out. So I stared at him, right in the face. I said “I see you, you prick” and out loud I described his face and appearance, his clothing, his height and weight, like a police description. It was very risky, I know. But I had run the maths, and it seemed like  smaller risk than asking him “please let me go” (giving him power) and a smaller risk than trying to free myself from his grasp and triggering him to grab me harder.

He did let me go, and he melted back into the dark. I went home, phoned 111 and reported it. No one rang me back.

I didnt panic, I felt really angry.

My mistake was that my attention was distracted by my mood, and my mood was sad and vulnerable. Had I tripped up while feeling strong and powerful and on top of the world, I doubt he’d have approached me in the same way. I think this because most of the times I’ve been approached in a way that felt sinister and immediately dangerous, I’ve been feeling vulnerable. It’s not a hard and fast correlation, but it’s enough to have influenced my internal risk assessment procedures.

But even so, there are times when my diligence fails. It’s fucking exhausting to be on duty with this shit all.the.time.


----------



## HarmonyFlow (Mar 12, 2021)

editor said:


> This is what women are up against
> 
> View attachment 258385



Good afternoon everyone,

New member here, I didn’t want to just jump straight in but...

I find Richard’s overall tone in the FB posts extremely disingenuous.
Women & Girls(and many men/boys) would like to hold a vigil, he is owed nothing in the way of an explanation, that’s it.

In regards to knife crime, I have personally observed vigils over the years(Clapham & Brixton)arranged and attended by family, friends and the wider community for boys and young men who have been killed in either a knife attack or shooting.
He’s playing a game of word salad in those posts to bamboozle others. I personally wouldn’t have entertained him.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 12, 2021)

Been granted an extension to


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

I had a boyfriend who would tease me about being really ditzy and unaware when we were walking about. He would say “how on Earth do you manage when you’re on your own??” It was because I trusted him enough to go off duty and relax when I was with him and it was like be being on holiday. But when we were on holiday and got lost in a slum area, it was me that realised we were about to get into danger, and me who quickly found a route out of danger, almost before he realised there was a problem.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 12, 2021)

Body found near Ashford just confirmed to be Sarah's. 

* Live update from the Met on Sky News.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2021)

Fucker


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

HarmonyFlow said:


> Good afternoon everyone,
> 
> New member here, I didn’t want to just jump straight in but...
> 
> ...




Hello HarmonyFlow , welcome to Urban.

But if you/we don’t engage with this kind of stuff , it stands unchallenged. Even if that person won’t  change his mind it might help another person to develop their thinking.

I understand what you say about not bothering with someone so obviously entenched when it’s one-on-one, but in public (which SM is) then I think it’s worth the effort.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Body found near Ashford just confirmed to be Sarah's.
> 
> * Live update from the Met on Sky News.




May she find peace.


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?


it's far easier to be a violent lunatic in the police without people catching on (or thinking there's much wrong with you) than it is in many other jobs.


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

Never mind colleagues catching on, what about professional psych evalautions? Don't they have those? Not even with the ones with guns?


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Never mind colleagues catching on, what about professional psych evalautions? Don't they have those? Not even with the ones with guns?


They do, but they are not 100% reliable. Very few things are. People lie, people change, the police force notoriously has an internal culture of backing up colleagues even when they behave appallingly, all in all a lot of factors that could go wrong.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?



Most psych testing is subtle.  If it wasn't, it would be easy for a psychopath to give the "right" answers and off they go.  What psych tests should reveal are character traits and tendencies on sliding scales.

Sadly in an industry such as policing where things like coercion, manipulation and ability to get people to willingly hand over information are considered valuable skills, there is a very small difference between a character evaluation of someone capable of horrific crimes, and one of someone earmarked for promotion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> They do, but they are not 100% reliable. Very few things are. People lie, people change, the police force notoriously has an internal culture of backing up colleagues even when they behave appallingly, all in all a lot of factors that could go wrong.


yeh like the number of times armed cops have threatened to lay down their guns when colleagues who've killed unarmed and innocent people have been threatened with prosecution


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Imagine having to assess potential threats on the street every time you go anywhere. Like being in a war zone full of mines and snipers. Even if you're not attacked the accumulated stress must be ruinous to your mental health. If men had to deal with it I'm sure it wouldn't be long before solutions could be found.



Not just on the street. Just before lockdown, being pretty lonely I had started to have some pleasant conversations with a guy on my bus home from work before he got off a way before I do. Anyone whom has met me will know I'm a pretty friendly, non-assuming person, and we seem to get on and it passed the otherwise crap bus journey and seemed nice and relaxed. We shared numbers as I thought it might just be nice to have a pint sometime and perhaps we'll build a friendship too. It took about two text conversations before he started getting really suggestive , and then trying to engage me in chats in the evening when I was just tired from work and looking forward to some home/me time, and onto then wishing me a good night/sweet dreams in the evening and getting quite pushy.

In the end, I just had to be rude and also told him I was unavailable to step back. I just wanted someone to have a bit of a chat and perhaps make friends with, and absolutely nothing in my conduct leading upto it was anything more than that.


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## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

I hope this case can be a turning point. If more men start to pressure the misogynist men they know, maybe things can get better. The focus must be on men fixing this. Women are already doing far, far too much. How do we get men to step up?


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## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

Why are you calling him a lunatic there’s no reason to. He will probably try to claim that defence. Don’t buy it.


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## Poot (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?


I think the words, 'but he seemed so _normal!' _are uttered quite a lot, as though it ought to be obvious. It isn't, though. Women sometimes have a spidey sense that men just don't have from years of being exposed to this stuff. ('what, Steve? Naaaah. Steve's alright! etc) but even then you can't be sure. And anything that gets tested for has a fairly obvious 'correct' answer, so people are not going to give much away. 

However, cruelty to animals, sexual assaults, coercion, harming anyone for any reason, all these give more of a clue. That's why people need to fucking listen to that stuff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I hope this case can be a turning point. If more men start to pressure the misogynist men they know, maybe things can get better. The focus must be on men fixing this. Women are already doing far, far too much. How do we get men to step up?


i think you're not being entirely realistic. these attitudes don't form overnight and so aren't going to be changed so quickly. and people have to admit they have a problem before they're going to change. it's not imo enough to say 'men must fix this' - it's going to require greater effort and change on the part of the media and wider socialisation to achieve that goal. not that it's not important to challenge those attitudes when encountered. but a greater societal effort has to be made, across education and culture as well as on an individual level. i'd expect it's much easier to prevent these attitudes, to instil different ones, than it is to change them.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

The body found has been confirmed as Sarah's.



			https://twitter.com/i/events/1369671000485326851?s=20


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## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> The body found has been confirmed as Sarah's.


Why did it take so long? Because the body had been disfigured/dismembered by the murderer?


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Why did it take so long? Because the body had been disfigured/dismembered by the murderer?



No idea. Given it's likely been done by one of their own I think they are being cautious.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Why did it take so long? Because the body had been disfigured/dismembered by the murderer?


because there's a process they go through, which includes formal identification of remains. this is for many people distressing enough without unfounded guff about mutilations being added to the mix, so perhaps you could give some thought to how you phrase your next posts.


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## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why are you calling him a lunatic there’s no reason to. He will probably try to claim that defence. Don’t buy it.


I can't see why you would murder someone for pleasure unless you were a lunatic. And if he is, wouldn't there be more chance of him being locked up for life, instead of getting parole after 20 years?


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## David Clapson (Mar 12, 2021)

I'll stop posting, I'm too upset. Ignore me.


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I can't see why you would murder someone for pleasure unless you were a lunatic. And if he is, wouldn't there be more chance of him being locked up for life, instead of getting parole after 20 years?


I dont want to speculate on his motivation, but human beings do horrendous things without being 'mad'.


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## wtfftw (Mar 12, 2021)

Let's not conflate mental illness and criminality.


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## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?



Isn't the point that the alleged (or indeed anyone committing such) is probably not a 'lunatic' in any sort of easily attributable mental health/psych sense at all? But that gender inequality, power relations empower men over women and are ubiquitous, and those imbalances are socialised so very young for boys/men so that the violent behaviours become 'normalised' amongst many men even if not enacted regularly. Just as people do all manner of horrible things often with power relations - racist attacks, homophobic/transphobic hate crimes, etc. but they're not attributable to mental illness.

For some reason, I seem to recall an old post of mine here about drawing a comparison between _all cops as bastards_ and _all men are rapists_. Whilst clearly not all are in either case, it's about the use/abuse of power, and _how do you know_?


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## Mrs Miggins (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Why did it take so long? Because the body had been disfigured/dismembered by the murderer?


It's not even been 2 full days which feels pretty quick to me.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Isn't the point that the alleged (or indeed anyone committing such) is probably not a 'lunatic' in any sort of easily attributable mental health/psych sense at all? But that gender inequality, power relations empower men over women and are ubiquitous, and those imbalances are socialised so very young for boys/men so that the violent behaviours become 'normalised' amongst many men even if not enacted regularly. Just as people do all manner of horrible things often with power relations - racist attacks, homophobic/transphobic hate crimes, etc. but they're not attributable to mental illness.
> 
> For some reason, I seem to recall an old post of mine here about drawing a comparison between _all cops as bastards_ and _all men are rapists_. Whilst clearly not all are in either case, it's about the use/abuse of power, and _how do you know_?




Right. So when running the risk assessment stuff, it’s sensible to start from the position of “this man is capable of doing me/ intends to do me harm” and work back from there.

Because of things like you describe a little earlier stethoscope my heart actually sinks when a new person asks me for my number. Because it indicates to me that they weren’t just enjoying the chat, they had ulterior motives the entire time they were talking to me.


----------



## HarmonyFlow (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Hello HarmonyFlow , welcome to Urban.
> 
> But if you/we don’t engage with this kind of stuff , it stands unchallenged. Even if that person won’t  change his mind it might help another person to develop their thinking.
> 
> I understand what you say about not bothering with someone so obviously entenched when it’s one-on-one, but in public (which SM is) then I think it’s worth the effort.



Thank you for the welcome.

I guess I just no longer have time for nonsense from anyone after strengthening my own personal boundaries in life, but you are right, challenging others in life(SM in particular)is important, if nothing else, to highlight just how dangerous or inaccurate another’s views may be.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 12, 2021)

.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> It's not even been 2 full days which feels pretty quick to me.




Although, these last few days have felt very long and laboured. To me, anyway.


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## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Because of things like you describe a little earlier stethoscope my heart actually sinks when a new person asks me for my number. Because it indicates to me that they weren’t just enjoying the chat, they had ulterior motives the entire time they were talking to me.



Yeah, that's exactly how it ended up making me look at it, and it totally floored me. I'm guarded enough at times because of past experiences and personal reasons, but I actually thought this could be something just _nice_ and_ friendly_ and _mutual_. And that's how it turned out.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Yeah, that's exactly how it ended up making me look at it, and it totally floored me. I'm guarded enough at times because of past experiences and personal reasons, but I actually thought this could be something just _nice_ and_ friendly_ and _mutual_. And that's how it turned out.




I’m sorry your trust has been further eroded.

It’s shit, eh.


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

I don’t understand what this is about - there’s a court case (?) to determine if the vigils / protests can go ahead under covid law? People will just show up, either way, I’d imagine. And the police if they have an ounce of sense will stand well back.


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## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I don’t understand what this is about - there’s a court case (?) to determine if the vigils / protests can go ahead under covid law? People will just show up, either way, I’d imagine. And the police if they have an ounce of sense will stand well back.




If they win, it'll mean the organisers aren't liable for a hefty fine.


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## gaijingirl (Mar 12, 2021)

editor said:


> This is what women are up against
> 
> View attachment 258385



I saw this too and it really annoyed me - it's not captured in your screenshot but his parting shot was a super-snide  "good luck girls with your protest".  I almost responded but I hate to get into arguments online and/or feed trolls.  I was in two minds about whether I would go to this vigil (I'm not great in crowds) but as a direct consequence of reading his contributions, I decided to go and my having discussed it with her, my eldest daughter will come with me.   So, fuck him.


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## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

I'm so sorry that it has turned out to be Sarah. I'm sure we all knew but without concrete proof there is always hope. I cannot imagine what her family and friends are going through. 

I read the thread you linked to killer b 

I wasn't taught to be frightened - I grew up spending days running around the countryside with my sister with no adult supervision. And I have never curtailed my behaviour - I do travel home alone in the evenings, I don't get taxis everywhere like some women I know. 

But I have been assaulted - several times. Luckily, not seriously and I haven't stopped going out alone. But equally, I have always tried to do all the right things to minimise risks while still doing it as SheilaNaGig said. But it's exhausting having to think about it all the bloody time. 

Sarah Everard did all the right things too.


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## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?


Or maybe they develop such traits through _being in_ the police? Perhaps with a certain amount of (latent or otherwise) predisposition to it in the first place.


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## Ms T (Mar 12, 2021)

Athos said:


> I'm not saying that's right; just what it is.  For what it's worth, I'd agree with you that not being on duty ought not to prevent suspension in respect of such serious allegations.


I am not a police officer but I am a union lay official. One of my members was accused of assaulting a colleague outside work and was suspended immediately pending a trial and then a formal process.


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## BusLanes (Mar 12, 2021)

BBC reporter is live tweeting the hearing


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## Argonia (Mar 12, 2021)

I Googled "how many people go missing in the UK every year?" and it was a bit unclear but accordingly to one article there are 180,000 people who go missing every year in the UK. Can that possibly be right? It seems an impossibly high number. I calculated that and it' comes out at 493 per day which is bananas.









						Inside Britain's Escalating Missing Persons Problem
					

With austerity widening society's cracks, the number of people reported missing in London alone has increased 77 percent since 2010.




					www.vice.com


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Like, just one instance: I was walking along Coldharbour Lane, wearing high heels because id been out for the night. I’d had a drink or two and I wasn’t in a great mood (things were bad at home). I missed my footing and went down on my hip, immediately got to my feet and switched my attention to “alert” because now I’d signalled that I was “falling down drunk” and therefore easy pickings. Right on cue, a man approached me, he appeared so quietly and so swiftly it was as if he’d materialised out of the air, just waiting for a vulnerable woman to click his intentions into actions. He walked in front of me, I changed direction, looked down, kept waking, he propositioned me, offered to walk me home, put his hand on my arm, and then he put him his foot in front of mine, clearly intending to trip me up. Fortunately, my shin made contact rather than my foot, so I stopped still and held my position, actually leaving my weight against his leg. Because he had hold of my arm. I was stuck. So I had to front it out. So I stared at him, right in the face. I said “I see you, you prick” and out loud I described his face and appearance, his clothing, his height and weight, like a police description. It was very risky, I know. But I had run the maths, and it seemed like  smaller risk than asking him “please let me go”, and a smaller risk than trying to free myself from his grasp and triggering him to grab me harder.
> 
> He did let me go, and he melted back into the dark. I went home, phoned 111 and reported it. No one rang me back.
> 
> ...


Damn. While I normally think I have some understanding of what other people experience  that story has  has again showed me how different these kinds of experiences can be. 
For me  when I have fallen over in the street  I almost always get a positive experience as people check on me to see if i'm ok or need assistance. It usually makes me feel positive towards people. 
It's sickening to think that this is  the reality that so many face.


Spoiler: tangential story about my one bad experience



I did once have a group of youths attempt a mugging because they thought i was stumbling drunk  but I wan't  and  got out of the situation by  telling them to fuck off  and  walking  straight through them. got a punch to the back of my head for it  but they ran off  when I shrugged off the hit. Again something I can do but  not an option for many.


----------



## Athos (Mar 12, 2021)

Ms T said:


> I am not a police officer but I am a union lay official. One of my members was accused of assaulting a colleague outside work and was suspended immediately pending a trial and then a formal process.



Yeah, I think the police' position is a bad one.


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

killer b said:


> I thought this thread was interesting, wondered what people thought about it (it echoes some stuff mrs b was talking about on the phone last night too tbf)



I like this thread, think it’s an important countering voice, but seems to me there’s a false oversimplified dichotomy being drawn, as if women are either living in a state of constant terror when outside their homes or else defiant & fearless, it’s not like that is it it’s about a constant risk assessment.
 The habit of risk assessment doesn’t mean we don’t sometimes - or often - calculate that yeah that might be risky but I’m doing it anyway.
I’ve done more than my fair share of ‘risky’, often reckless and probably stupid stuff, travelling about alone slinking around strange cities and dodgy long overnight journeys etc, walking about high, all that stuff, and I used to think I had special street smarts skillz and that’s why nothing terrible’s ever happened to me, but I don’t think that any more, it’s just luck, I’ve been lucky, lucky me I got away with it again. 
That is the thing I’m hearing in women’s testimonies these last days, they’re not saying  ‘I’m so scared I don’t ever walk alone’ they’re just talking about the risk assessment calculations that are part of our lives, and how we should not have to feel lucky or be brave, the whole calculated risk thing for women in public space is the issue, that’s what people are talking about. I don’t think any woman lives entirely without that. We’re not crippled by it and cowering away, either though.


----------



## Lurdan (Mar 12, 2021)

Argonia said:


> I Googled "how many people go missing in the UK every year?" and it was a bit unclear but accordingly to one article there are 180,000 people who go missing every year in the UK. Can that possibly be right? It seems an impossibly high number. I calculated that and it' comes out at 493 per day which is bananas.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's the number who are reported missing the vast majority of whom are either found or go home within 48 hours. Slightly less dramatic statistics on this charity's website.


----------



## Manter (Mar 12, 2021)

Completely agree with bimble. There are layers and layers of stuff going on....

risk assessments/fear that are/is so ingrained you do them without thought and couldn’t even elicidate them if asked. Eg checking how long a cab journey should take, flicking to google maps occasionally just to check it’s still a plausible route 
risk assessments you do and fear you feel in some places/situations but not others- eg near home you feel in some way you know the terrain, know the dodgy bits and can relax elsewhere (part of why Sarah Everard’s situation has hit so many women so hard round here)
things you know are risky but you take a chance anyway. It’s statistically unlikely I will be raped and murdered and the route by the river is nicer if remote so fuck it 
things you do against your better judgement and only start to feel fear part way through when your brain’s tally sheet points out you may have made a daft call. 
things you know knowing the outcome but deciding you’ll just deal with it.(I am going out with my girlfriends to get drunk and I will inevitably be catcalled, propositioned and very likely assaulted at least once, but the fun I will have overrides that overwhelming certainty)

and most of this is ingrained- it’s a muscle. We don’t need to ploddingly work through it, our brains do it in a nanosecond. It’s only when it goes surprisingly or seriously wrong that you get a _flood_ of adrenaline and discover that there is a whole soupy brew in the back of your mind


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Ms T said:


> I am not a police officer but I am a union lay official. One of my members was accused of assaulting a colleague outside work and was suspended immediately pending a trial and then a formal process.


it's a staple of police procedurals, the cop gets suspended and gives up his badge and gun. and there's no reason why that shouldn't have happened here.


----------



## Manter (Mar 12, 2021)

Also, to previous point I’m failing somewhat to answer..... it doesn’t usually stop me doing things. It changes how I do them, or when, or the details of the logistics, and I’ve done a couple of things knowing that if I ended up dead I’d be a cautionary tale (what was she doing _there_ alone? At that time of night?) but I still go out and live my life to the full.

The times I haven’t done something through fear was when the fear outweighed the fun, or when someone else would actually end up in danger trying to protect me just because I was being bloody minded or making a point.


----------



## Manter (Mar 12, 2021)

That should say elucidate. My autocorrect hates me


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

.


bimble said:


> I like this thread, think it’s an important countering voice, but seems to me there’s a false oversimplified dichotomy being drawn, as if women are either living in a state of constant terror when outside their homes or else defiant & fearless, it’s not like that is it it’s about a constant risk assessment.
> The habit of risk assessment doesn’t mean we don’t sometimes - or often - calculate that yeah that might be risky but I’m doing it anyway.
> I’ve done more than my fair share of ‘risky’, often reckless and probably stupid stuff, travelling about alone slinking around strange cities and dodgy long overnight journeys etc, walking about high, all that stuff, and I used to think I had special street smarts skillz and that’s why nothing terrible’s ever happened to me, but I don’t think that any more, it’s just luck, I’ve been lucky, lucky me I got away with it again.
> That is the thing I’m hearing in women’s testimonies these last days, they’re not saying  ‘I’m so scared I don’t ever walk alone’ they’re just talking about the risk assessment calculations that are part of our lives, and how we should not have to feel lucky or be brave, the whole calculated risk thing for women in public space is the issue, that’s what people are talking about. I don’t think any woman lives entirely without that. We’re not crippled by it and cowering away, either though.




And sometimes we judge the risk to be low, or low enough, and we relax and enjoy it.

But - for me anyway - part of the ritual of leaving  places, saying goodbye and so forth, is about putting on the mantle of awareness again*, in preparation for going home in the dark. And I think we are also checking in with each other to make sure we know where each is, how are you getting home, are you sure that bloke is okay....? text me when you get home safe, your bag is still hanging on that chair... etc.

I suppose it’s one of the reasons “women take so long saying goodbye” at the end of a night out.


ETA
*
As Manter says, some of this is unconscious, so I’m thinking more about this as I write...

I think this sort of... ritual, of getting ready to leave is a process of checking in with women friends, those who are staying as well as those who are leaving, especially if theyre going home alone or with a new fella. Without it being a fanfare, I think we habitually signal to each other (even if I ghost out I’ll tell at least one woman that I’m leaving) where we’re at.

And I’ll always pee before I leave so I’m not distracted, get my coat, gloves, scarf etc all settled before I set off, so that I can set off smartly and not draw the attention of any predator lurking around the entrance.


----------



## Argonia (Mar 12, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> That's the number who are reported missing the vast majority of whom are either found or go home within 48 hours. Slightly less dramatic statistics on this charity's website.



That's a relief that so many are found. Even if 90% are found however it still means something like 40 people a day go missing and aren't found, which just seems crazy.


----------



## HarmonyFlow (Mar 12, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I don't understand how a lunatic gets into the police and stays in the police. Before he becomes a murderer, isn't there some psych testing which could identify him as having dangerous bizarre sex crime thinking?



Hi,

The personality testing an individual undertakes to join the police force or any other form of employment for that matter, can be bypassed quite easily for someone who is determined enough.
Cognitive empathy with a lot of charm springs to mind.

For what it’s worth, some of his peers were very much implicit in knowing what he was truly about, yet chose to turn a blind eye, this is just as bad as being complicit in my view.


By cognitive empathy I mean- those who are quite skilled on an intellectual level to act ‘as if’ so they have the ability to act like they can put themselves in another’s shoes.
But actually feel no empathy, whatsoever.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

HarmonyFlow said:


> Hi,
> 
> The personality testing an individual undertakes to join the police force or any other form of employment for that matter, can be bypassed quite easily for someone who is determined enough.
> Cognitive empathy with a lot of charm springs to mind.
> ...




You sound very sure about this. Is it speculation or professional insight and experience? Or independent fact you could link to?


----------



## Edie (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Yeah, that's exactly how it ended up making me look at it, and it totally floored me. I'm guarded enough at times because of past experiences and personal reasons, but I actually thought this could be something just _nice_ and_ friendly_ and _mutual_. And that's how it turned out.


This has been discussed on another thread recently, and experiences vary, but ime a man very rarely wants to be friends if he thinks there’s a prospect of more. If a bloke asks for your number that’s a chat up line, and if you give it to him, you send a signal back your interested. I recently sent a web-based thank you note to West Yorkshire ambulance after they took me in with covid. The paramedic emailed me back(!) attempting to chat me up and giving me his number  Bare in mind when he’d seen me I had a 40 degree fever, unwashed hair, and was muddled!


----------



## HarmonyFlow (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You sound very sure about this. Is it speculation or professional insight and experience? Or independent fact you could link to?


I do appreciate why you have asked what you have asked,as I am new here.

Reports of the accused having committed indecent exposure in a fast food establishment and a complaint made, yet he was allowed to continue to work is very worrying and more.

This is what I meant regarding ‘implicit V complicit’.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 12, 2021)

Fine, burning pitchforks outside scotland yard it is then.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

Just read that come through. I don't think the decision may make a difference at this stage, people are feeling strongly enough to get out there. Get a crowdfunder ready to pay fines.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this reminds me of a lot of the friendship dynamics on display in I May Destroy You
one reason it was so powerful was that all of those rules and routines that women friends do with each other was up for discussion and self recriminations when the checking in / checking up on wasn't adhered to


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Just read that come through. I don't think the decision may make a difference at this stage, people are feeling strongly enough to get out there. Get a crowdfunder ready to pay fines.


yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Just read that come through. I don't think the decision may make a difference at this stage, people are feeling strongly enough to get out there. Get a crowdfunder ready to pay fines.


Best not to do this until after fines imposed. It can encourage courts to impose higher fines I'm told


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Just read that come through. I don't think the decision may make a difference at this stage, people are feeling strongly enough to get out there. Get a crowdfunder ready to pay fines.


What happens if the organisation puts out a tweet that reasonably disclaims itself from any vigils that do take place?


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What happens if the organisation puts out a tweet that reasonably disclaims itself from any vigils that do take place?



Will it stop people going out I suppose is what I'm getting at regardless of an official protest being cancelled?


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

More great work by the judges today. 
Not that prison is any kind of answer but on what the hell basis do they reckon he’s unlikely to attack another woman?








						Dad who attacked woman walking home at night avoids jail 'as he would lose job'
					

Takeaway worker Javed Miah, 23, pulled the woman to the ground and molested her in Oldham, Greater Manchester, before fleeing after she managed to use the SOS function on her mobile phone




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

I would like to know people’s thoughts on the idea of a curfew for men. Would it be more appropriate to start another thread or should I carry on here?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I would like to know people’s thoughts on the idea of a curfew for men. Would it be more appropriate to start another thread or should I carry on here?


start another thread is my thinking


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> start another thread is my thinking


Aye, it would be a diversion and anyway I just realised this is in the Brixton forum


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh yes, the swift and purposeful exit, feels ages ago now but before moving away I’d go have a dance by myself sometimes late at a little place on coldharbour lane, not far from home. I loved it and I miss it but that bit, swiftly swooping up my coat and stuff and whoosh out the door and gone pretending I’m in a hurry, that wasn’t any fun. Just in case you know, someone might follow me or think I’d come for company.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

I haven't read this thread, but just watching this on C4 news. I'm honestly not sure how this group could think a mass gathering during the pandemic could or should be allowed, whatever the cause?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I haven't read this thread, but just watching this on C4 news. I'm honestly not sure how this group could think a mass gathering during the pandemic could or should be allowed, whatever the cause?


I'm sure given time you'll understand


----------



## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm sure given time you'll understand



What does that even mean?

FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> What does that even mean?
> 
> FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.


There we are then. You have exercised your freedom of choice. Jolly good.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> What does that even mean?
> 
> FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.


Your presence may not have been welcome anyway


----------



## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

existentialist said:


> There we are then. You have exercised your freedom of choice. Jolly good.



Unfortunately, the virus doesn't quite recognise freedom of choice


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> What does that even mean?
> 
> FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.


what does it mean? It means I think you've not thought this thru. There are some things which demand a social response, a mass response. This murder is one of them, as were the police killings in America which prompted the BLM protests. It should not go unmarked. There are times to stand up and be counted and this is one of them.  if there's a vigil within walking distance of me I'll attend it.


----------



## Thora (Mar 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> More great work by the judges today.
> Not that prison is any kind of answer but on what the hell basis do they reckon he’s unlikely to attack another woman?
> 
> 
> ...


Can't we at least have a curfew on sex attackers?  Forget about registers, tag them and keep them in at night.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> Unfortunately, the virus doesn't quite recognise freedom of choice


What I don't think you recognise is that there is a calculus of risk here. To you, perhaps, the risk of Covid infection is the biggest priority...but perhaps, for thousands of women who have just had it very sharply brought home to them just how real their deepest fears are, catching Covid isn't the worst thing that can happen to them.

And why would your calculus of risk be otherwise? I imagine that you feel reasonable secure to be out and about after dark, and don't have to risk-assess every choice you make about how you live your life, in the way that many women feel the need to do.


----------



## Petcha (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what does it mean? It means I think you've not thought this thru. There are some things which demand a social response, a mass response. This murder is one of them, as were the police killings in America which prompted the BLM protests. It should not go unmarked. There are times to stand up and be counted and this is one of them.  if there's a vigil within walking distance of me I'll attend it.



I agree. I attended the BLM protests in London against Govt advice at the time. But back then I don't think people really understood as much as we do about this now. Anyway, I'm gonna step away from this thread now as I can see that in lieu of anyone else, I'm gonna get piled in on, so I'm out.


----------



## bimble (Mar 12, 2021)

I didn’t realise that the political protest exemption that was there last summer isn’t there now, all of us being ‘tier 4’. Some useful bits in here:








						Can I attend a protest during the Coronavirus Pandemic? - Liberty
					






					www.libertyhumanrights.org.uk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)




----------



## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I agree. I attended the BLM protests in London against Govt advice at the time. But back then I don't think people really understood as much as we do about this now. Anyway, I'm gonna step away from this thread now as I can see that in lieu of anyone else, I'm gonna get piled in on, so I'm out.



Your posts on the BLM threads at the time don't seem to give any indication of you having been down there, seems odd not to have mentioned it.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 12, 2021)

BBC News now reporting two complaints of indecent exposure.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I haven't read this thread, but just watching this on C4 news. I'm honestly not sure how this group could think a mass gathering during the pandemic could or should be allowed, whatever the cause?



Our lives depend on raising awareness. Just like they did with the BLM protests and awareness raising. You seem to be flip flopping and it's confusing me.


----------



## Poot (Mar 12, 2021)

Thora said:


> Can't we at least have a curfew on sex attackers?  Forget about registers, tag them and keep them in at night.



_"This incident was entirely out of character. He has a low risk of re-offending.''_

Apparently despite the fact that he thought it was okay to grope a terrified stranger and only stopped when her rape alarm went off, he's very low risk and no one should worry.


----------



## Thora (Mar 12, 2021)

Poot said:


> _"This incident was entirely out of character. He has a low risk of re-offending.''_
> 
> Apparently despite the fact that he thought it was okay to grope a terrified stranger and only stopped when her rape alarm went off, he's very low risk and no one should worry.


It was just opportunistic - so literally nothing to worry about unless he ever has the opportunity of being near a woman again


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> BBC reporter is live tweeting the hearing




Reading the reporters twitter and his article it looks to me that the Met legal played a clever hand in front of the Judge

The Vigil organisers legal team said the ban was not taking account the Human Rights Act. That the Police had wrongly told the organisers there hands were tied and they had to ban the vigil.

When it came in front of a Judge the Met legal team said the Met had no blanket ban.

It sounds to me like the Met told the organisers there hands were tied. The Met legal team realised this would not go done well in front of Judge. So changed the story. Thus undermining the argument from the Vigil organisers legal team.

So as the journalist says in his BBC article:



> Justice Holgate hasn't quite closed the door on the event going ahead anyway.
> That's because three long hours of legal argument today thrashed out the legal principles that the Metropolitan Police should follow.
> Critically, the force said it did not have a "blanket ban" on all protests - which meant it accepted it had to take into account the right to protest which is enshrined in human rights legislation.
> The judge said: "There may well be further communication between the claimants and the police to deal with the application of the [Covid] regulations and [the rights to protest]. But that is not a matter on which the court should comment


."









						Sarah Everard vigil organisers lose court challenge
					

A High Court judge refuses to intervene in the action against the police ban on the event.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Looks to me that the Met legal team decided to concede the point knowing that Cressida Dicks Met will not be seriously talking to the vigil organisers.

The Met have achieved their aim of disrupting the vigils taking place legally.

However in conceding that Met have no blanket ban it begs the question why the Met did not work out a deal with the organisers. Who were making efforts to organise a vigil that took the pandemic into consideration. A socially distanced vigil.

My view is that the police were worried about high profile campaign like the BLM protests.

Having a pandemic works in authorities favour in keeping a lid on protest.


----------



## Manter (Mar 12, 2021)

__





						Experiences of violence and abuse of UK women
					

Welcome to our study, which is planned to run every year to collect the experiences of women and girls subjected to violence and abuse in the UK



					freeonlinesurveys.com
				




we measure what we value. Some may wish to complete this questionnaire. Be warned it’s quite hard going


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Reading the reporters twitter and his article it looks to me that the Met legal played a clever hand in front of the Judge
> 
> The Vigil organisers legal team said the ban was not taking account the Human Rights Act. That the Police had wrongly told the organisers there hands were tied and they had to ban the vigil.
> 
> ...


Tbh the cops should have turned a blind eye and let the event go ahead without comment


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the cops should have turned a blind eye and let the event go ahead without comment


They can certainly turn a blind eye when it suits them


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the cops should have turned a blind eye and let the event go ahead without comment



It sounds to me that the Judge said he could not directly interfere. But what was said in court by Met means that they conceded they did have discretion to allow a protest.


----------



## pesh (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> What does that even mean?
> 
> FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.





Petcha said:


> I got a pirate mobile freelance barber in yesterday. My work zoom calls were getting a bit embarrassing. He told me he's making more money now than he did pre-lockdown. £30 a head, literally. Others were quoting 45, but this dude was excellent. I had my first ever threading, without knowing what the fuck that is or actually asking for it.
> 
> Even after lockdown I'm gonna keep doing using him. So much more chilled than a barber shop.
> 
> Other than that i've been a good boy. Barely leave the house.



prick.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 12, 2021)

pesh said:


> prick.


That’s gabi for you


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> What does that even mean?
> 
> FWIW, I would be there myself, it's a cause I believe in - but well, we're in a pandemic.


...as we were last year during the height of BLM which you say you participated in.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I agree. I attended the BLM protests in London against Govt advice at the time. But back then I don't think people really understood as much as we do about this now. Anyway, I'm gonna step away from this thread now as I can see that in lieu of anyone else, I'm gonna get piled in on, so I'm out.




In lieu of anyone else?

I know you said you were stepping away so maybe it isn't fair to quote & reply

But what the fuck?

It sounds and if you’re saying that all the people who are feeling exercised by the issue are just, y’know, up in arms with pitchforks waving and looking for any other random target.

This is not about you. This is about us.

If you feel that your personal safety trumps the safety of all women, then fuck off and be safe on your own over there somewhere.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 12, 2021)

Petcha- I'm leaving this thread because I will be piled on.

Also Petcha- Here's some ridiculously stupid, dismissive, contradictory nonsense before I go so that I can make sure any responses to me meet my self pitying, imaginary prediction that I will be piled on.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 12, 2021)

I heard some old bloke talking on radio 4 when I was in the car this evening (I think it was Any Questions  ), they were discussing this tragedy and he stated that statistically violence and sexual assault against women is lower in Roman Catholic countries like Italy and Poland...
I find this very hard to believe unless that are only including cases that actually go to court. 
He then said that he didn't know what you can actually do with this information 
I mean ffs


----------



## ddraig (Mar 12, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> That’s gabi for you


aaaaahhh! Have been wondering, ta


----------



## trashpony (Mar 12, 2021)

He’s been charged with Sarah’s abduction and murder.

Sarah Everard: Met Police officer charged with murder Sarah Everard: Met Police officer charged with murder


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2021)

Reclaim These Streets | Sarah Everard Vigil
					

Bindmans LLP are acting for Jessica Leigh, Anna Birley, Hennah Shah and Jamie Klingler, a group of women from London who came together following the tragic disappearance and suspected homicide of Sarah Everard, to plan a Vigil on Clapham Common on Saturday 13 March.




					www.bindmans.com
				




Here is Bindmans webpage- they worked for the Vigil organisers against the Met.

It contains pdf of the submssion to the Judge.

What is interesting is that initially - from emails that Bindmans have in the pdf - that local police were prepared to work with the organisers. Two of the organisers were local Cllrs. Lambeth Council ( Clapham Common is in Lambeth) supported idea of a vigil. Lambeth Council were prepared to help. So looks to me this could have been well organised one hour vigil with social distancing.

It was only later the Met said no.

On the blanket ban on Protest. In front of Judge the Met legal team said was not the case. Which tbf I find contradictory. As it is clear that is what they told organisers.

Bindman argue that the Human Rights Acts ( which protects freedom of expression and assembly) is primary legislation and that secondary legislation like the Covid legislation has to be compatible with it. HRA comes first.

So under the covid legislation of reasonable excuse the Met could have allowed a vigil. The HRA rights come first.

Its an important argument. Looking at the HRA excerpts in Bindmans pdf and the whole point of the HRA is to enshrine rights of individual against the state. The judgement call is to err in favour of peaceful protest. Its important part of democracy.

The pandemic is testing these important principles.


----------



## Winot (Mar 12, 2021)

I think the problem here is that the bar was quite low for the police to meet. They just had to consider the balance between the HRA and the Covid laws when deciding whether or not to allow the vigil to go ahead.

It sounds like the police changed their tune (presumably on legal advice) as to whether or not it was a blanket ban.

It’s now clear that a blanket ban is against the HRA but as long as the police consider the HRA then they can go ahead and ban, which is where we are.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2021)

Winot said:


> I think the problem here is that the bar was quite low for the police to meet. They just had to consider the balance between the HRA and the Covid laws when deciding whether or not to allow the vigil to go ahead.
> 
> It sounds like the police changed their tune (presumably on legal advice) as to whether or not it was a blanket ban.
> 
> It’s now clear that a blanket ban is against the HRA but as long as the police consider the HRA then they can go ahead and ban, which is where we are.



Its to late for this vigil.

My question is why police changed their tune.

It was Bindmans challenging them that made them change their tune. Police must have had legal advice before about blanket bans.  Thing about the police is that they push the envelope in their favour as much as they can. Scaring people with fines works.  Hoping no one takes costly legal action to question them.

Probably surprised the Cops that the organisers got overnight the funds to take them on so quickly.

Its a good reminder that however much local police are friendly the Met as an organisation is not the peoples friend.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2021)

Another thing. My experience of legal stuff is some of it depends on the Judge one gets on the day. Different Judges interpret the law in different way. This one did not want to "interfere" with the police.

And how the HRA vs Covid legislation is interpretated is what legal argument is for. Its a judgement call. Its also political. Another reminder is that the Police are a political organisation. They are not neutral.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 12, 2021)

trashpony said:


> He’s been charged with Sarah’s abduction and murder.
> 
> Sarah Everard: Met Police officer charged with murder Sarah Everard: Met Police officer charged with murder


How come he's now on his second trip to hospital?
He doesn't seem to have been very well supervised in custody.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

A second head injury now?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 12, 2021)

The Express was reporting it 12 hours ago?









						Sarah Everard: Suspect Wayne Couzens rushed to hospital with head injury for second time
					

THE man charged with the murder and kidnap of Sarah Everard was rushed to hospital with a head injury for the second time in three days today.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## discokermit (Mar 12, 2021)

.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 12, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> The Express was reporting it 12 hours ago?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Original article updated at 22.08 today.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 12, 2021)

CH1 said:


> How come he's now on his second trip to hospital?
> He doesn't seem to have been very well supervised in custody.


Second head injury? Sounds to me like they don't want the embarrassment of a trial.


----------



## coldwaterswim (Mar 12, 2021)

I can’t stop thinking about this, that poor girl must have been terrified.
I’ve walked along that bit of the a205 so many times without a second thought.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Mar 12, 2021)

This has quite a lot of detail, including the two reports of indecent exposure on Feb 28th.

Sarah Everard: Met police officer charged with kidnap and murder | UK news | The Guardian


----------



## HarmonyFlow (Mar 13, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Second head injury? Sounds to me like they don't want the embarrassment of a trial.



Hmm....🤔

It is very interesting that he has “suffered a second head injury”.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 13, 2021)

Is he sharing a cell with Jeffrey Epstein?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

HarmonyFlow said:


> Hmm....🤔
> 
> It is very interesting that he has “suffered a second head injury”.


I expect he's whacking his head against a wall...perhaps the only power he has left.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I expect he's whacking his head against a wall...perhaps the only power he has left.


maybe they should put him in a padded cell.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

trashpony said:


> maybe they should put him in a padded cell.


I suspect that's his angle.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

trashpony said:


> maybe they should put him in a padded cell.


That thought did occur...but given how poor our healthcare system is at keeping genuinely unwell people safe, I am not optimistic that Mr Couzens will be prevented from doing himself harm.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

He'll soon be remanded to custody. Probably need to be on a nonce wing to protect him from other prisoners, and 24 hour a day monitoring to prevent him harming himself.  There'll be understandable outrage if he somehow avoids answering these charges in court.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> He'll soon be remanded to custody. Probably need to be on a nonce wing to protect him from other prisoners, and 24 hour a day monitoring to prevent him harming himself.  There'll be understandable outrage if he somehow avoids answering these charges in court.


I hope they're going to take extra precautions, because it might be convenient for some that he doesn't have to face charges in court...perhaps not least the suspect himself.

In particular, because I suspect that the investigations could well highlight other offences.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I hope they're going to take extra precautions, because it might be convenient for some that he doesn't have to face charges in court...perhaps not least the suspect himself.
> 
> In particular, because I suspect that the investigations could well highlight other offences.


Honestly, I think the MPS would rather be seen bringing him to justice, now. Especially as any failings are very unlikely to affect anyone powerful enough to orchestrate any harm befalling him.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

Athos said:


> Honestly, I think the MPS would rather be seen bringing him to justice, now. Especially as any failings are very unlikely to affect anyone powerful enough to orchestrate any harm befalling him.


Yep, I don't think it will be them. But prisons are full of people (and not just the inmates) who tend not to regard the niceties of trials as especially relevant.

And, of course, there is also the strong possibility that the suspect may have his own reasons for not wanting to see the process through...


----------



## Guineveretoo (Mar 13, 2021)

The vigil on Clapham Common today has been cancelled.


----------



## Athos (Mar 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Yep, I don't think it will be them. But prisons are full of people (and not just the inmates) who tend not to regard the niceties of trials as especially relevant.



Yeah. And that would be a further blow to her family. Fingers crossed he doesn't get an easy out (by his own hand or someone else's).


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

Guineveretoo said:


> The vigil on Clapham Common today has been cancelled.


I imagine that there's nothing to stop significant numbers of small, socially distanced groups of people going anyway?

I wonder what it must be like for policemen and women to find themselves having to suppress a vigil that, in all likelihood, many of them will support?


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

i'm really sorry to hear they have cancelled it. Feels like it would have been both important and comforting for a lot of people. I hope people do go anyway in some numbers, now that it's officially cancelled nobody can be fined for organising it?


----------



## girasol (Mar 13, 2021)

It doesn't seem right that they cancelled it, but cancelled it is... They are raising money instead...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I imagine that there's nothing to stop significant numbers of small, socially distanced groups of people going anyway?
> 
> I wonder what it must be like for policemen and women to find themselves having to suppress a vigil that, in all likelihood, many of them will support?



It's never stopped them before, I assume it's part of the training.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Is he sharing a cell with Jeffrey Epstein?


Sure he will be whenever he goes to the great prison in the sky


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 13, 2021)

Eek, you can tell these aren't experienced protest organisers. Sure, cancel it on paper to protect yourselves if you must, but no need to actively discourage people from going. Protests don't involve doing everything the police says. 

One problem is most people don't know that a lot of protests that happen don't get police permission or are actively sabotaged by the police. The myth of freedom of assembly is still strong.


----------



## jakejb79 (Mar 13, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Eek, you can tell these aren't experienced protest organisers. Sure, cancel it on paper to protect yourselves if you must, but no need to actively discourage people from going. Protests don't involve doing everything the police says.
> 
> One problem is most people don't know that a lot of protests that happen don't get police permission or are actively sabotaged by the police. The myth of freedom of assembly is still strong.



Also what happens to all the money they have raised?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

jakejb79 said:


> Also what happens to all the money they have raised?



They'll use it to pay any fines they receive. Up to 32 vigils were confirmed around the country. They'll donate to women's charities/orgs.


----------



## girasol (Mar 13, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Eek, you can tell these aren't experienced protest organisers. Sure, cancel it on paper to protect yourselves if you must, but no need to actively discourage people from going. Protests don't involve doing everything the police says.
> 
> One problem is most people don't know that a lot of protests that happen don't get police permission or are actively sabotaged by the police. The myth of freedom of assembly is still strong.



Also... It's a vigil, not a protest.  Since when do people need permission to have a vigil?  This has pissed me off enormously. I fancy a walk to the bandstand at 6pm, will I be arrested?  Only one way to find out.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 13, 2021)

"We were told that pressing ahead could risk a £10,000 fine each for each woman organising. Even if we came to this amazing community for help in meeting those costs, we think that this would be a poor use of our and your money. We do not want to see hundreds of thousands of pounds contributed to a system that consistently fails to keep women safe - either in public spaces or in the privacy of their homes. Women’s rights are too important." 

Fair enough


----------



## girasol (Mar 13, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> "We were told that pressing ahead could risk a £10,000 fine each for each woman organising. Even if we came to this amazing community for help in meeting those costs, we think that this would be a poor use of our and your money. We do not want to see hundreds of thousands of pounds contributed to a system that consistently fails to keep women safe - either in public spaces or in the privacy of their homes. Women’s rights are too important."
> 
> Fair enough



Maybe reading between the lines: it's not an official protest anymore, so if people turn up they can't prosecute organisers, as they have officially cancelled it and advised people to stay home, this should be enough to exempt them from fines if people turn up, right?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 13, 2021)

Indeed. they are disassociated, and have not wasted their money. People can still go.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 13, 2021)

The organisers might have to go undercover


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 13, 2021)

The main thing is to not let it become a protest about protesting now.


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Petcha said:


> I haven't read this thread, but just watching this on C4 news. I'm honestly not sure how this group could think a mass gathering during the pandemic could or should be allowed, whatever the cause?


Cheltenham, BLM, anti lockdown, anti vaccine, pro Brexit, Celtic.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> Cheltenham, BLM, anti lockdown, anti vaccine, pro Brexit, Celtic.....


Rangers


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> BBC News now reporting two complaints of indecent exposure.


They always have previous. It’s getting boring. Believe us, take action, stop it the first time. Why do the police find that so very hard to understand?


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Rangers


Fair enough


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> They always have previous. It’s getting boring. Believe us, take action, stop it the first time. Why do the police find that so very hard to understand?


Sometimes people put a lot of energy into not understanding something


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I imagine that there's nothing to stop significant numbers of small, socially distanced groups of people going anyway?
> 
> I wonder what it must be like for policemen and women to find themselves having to suppress a vigil that, in all likelihood, many of them will support?


Will they? I mean, why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt at this stage? A rotten apple spoils the barrel


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Eek, you can tell these aren't experienced protest organisers. Sure, cancel it on paper to protect yourselves if you must, but no need to actively discourage people from going. Protests don't involve doing everything the police says.
> 
> One problem is most people don't know that a lot of protests that happen don't get police permission or are actively sabotaged by the police. The myth of freedom of assembly is still strong.


No, they are ordinary, local south London women. That’s the point


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> Will they? I mean, why are we giving them the benefit of the doubt at this stage? A rotten apple spoils the barrel


The barrel's been rotten for years and leaking putrescent juice has fucked up all the other barrels in the cop cellar


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Eek, you can tell these aren't experienced protest organisers. Sure, cancel it on paper to protect yourselves if you must, but no need to actively discourage people from going. Protests don't involve doing everything the police says.
> 
> One problem is most people don't know that a lot of protests that happen don't get police permission or are actively sabotaged by the police. The myth of freedom of assembly is still strong.


Yeh leave it to the professionals


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The barrel's been rotten for years and leaking putrescent juice has fucked up all the other barrels in the cop cellar


Yes. I’ve seen some pretty shocking things, I’ve got the every-woman litany of ‘and the police did nothing’ stories but my instinct has always still been to call them, to report etc. I do wonder why.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> Yes. I’ve seen some pretty shocking things, I’ve got the every-woman litany of ‘and the police did nothing’ stories but my instinct has always still been to call them, to report etc. I do wonder why.


The problem is the police do nothing when they should do something and they do something when they should do nothing


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The problem is the police do nothing when they should do something and they do something when they should do nothing


And on the occasion that they do something when they should be doing something they do completely the wrong thing. Not fit for our purposes.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2021)

The organisers of the vigil could have said go ahead anyway - this would have put the police on the spot.

But risking heavy fines is not to treated lightly.

I'm sure a lot of I individual police would support a vigil and not be happy with arresting people for attending. It reminds me I read Vitales The End of Policing recently. He pointed out that liberal argument that police can be reformed by getting more women or BAME in the top does not work.

The historical foundation of policing in UK  and USA was to keep people in line. When faced with dissent it reverts to its core reason for being as an institution. Regardless of who is in the top jobs. Or what individual officers think.

What has happened over the vigil is example of this.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## ash (Mar 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Rangers


We won’t by jumping up and down and hugging each other


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 13, 2021)

loads of coppers are thick as fuck over so much. 

One tried to have a go at me for wearing an anti-nazi badge cos he clocked a swastika on it. He didn't know what it was at all.

I wasn't pulled for the badge, but they wanted to make a thing of it on a platform at Blackfriars....

(they had to let me walk in the end, fucking idiots!)


----------



## xsunnysuex (Mar 13, 2021)

Don't know if it's been posted here already.  But Sarah was found in a large builder's bag. And was identified by dental records.
That poor girl. Wtf did he do to her.   😥


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)

Just arriving at the park. There's loads of people here.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 13, 2021)

Live stream from Clapham...


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Live stream from Clapham...



jesus the chat though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Just arriving at the park. There's loads of people here.


Are men supposed to be there?


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

In court 








						Sarah Everard: Met officer appears in court charged with kidnap and murder
					

Wayne Couzens’ head wound is visible as magistrates hear victim’s body was found in a builder’s bag




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Police stopping/arresting the woman with the megaphone. Crowd chanting. 'Let her speak' 'Shame on you' and booing.


----------



## girasol (Mar 13, 2021)

Wow, very impressed by turnout, watching live feed now.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

They're not letting people speak so it's becoming a protest.

Let her speak
Shame on you
Who's street our streets
No justice no peace
Arrest your own


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

'Arrest your own'


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 13, 2021)

"Give it back" ?
The megaphone?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

I have a bad feeling that this case will drag on and eventually the courts will reduce his sentence or pardon him. Absolutely terrible terrible news, there has also been a lack of action for the double murders of Nicole Smallman and Bibaa Henry, and no doubt many others in North and S. London that I'm not aware of at this moment. I do hope meaningful change comes out all of this but I'm jaded enough to imagine the British media will manufacture some other non-issue to distract away from this and it will just be something that just trucks on in the ever present background.

Must be absolutely terrible for her family and those who knew her, I hope the vigils can provide a little consolation at the very least.

As for the copper, may he rot in pieces.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Phones up, lights on, blinding the police cameras and obscuring the crowds' faces.  

'Police go home'


----------



## marshall (Mar 13, 2021)

Pardon him? No, I don’t think so.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2021)

Not the most astute headline in the circumstances


----------



## BusLanes (Mar 13, 2021)

The video from Clapham Common is quite something.


----------



## fucthest8 (Mar 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not the most astute headline in the circumstances




Or "Teenage girl defends self after being grabbed"  FFS


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Man attacks girl who is walking along a path isn’t news tho is it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not the most astute headline in the circumstances



Woman defends herself. 

Quite simple.


----------



## Poot (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Woman defends herself.
> 
> Quite simple.


From man.

The man is usually in the passive voice or just assumed.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> eventually the courts will reduce his sentence or pardon him.


This is actually deranged. Are you OK?


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> This is actually deranged. Are you OK?



If he manages to plead diminished responsibility it could be possible. The police are a gang after all, they are not bound by legal protocol, only circumventing it.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> If he manages to plead diminished responsibility it could be possible. The police are a gang after all, they are not bound by legal protocol, only circumventing it.


It’s incredibly unlikely. _Because_ he’s police.


----------



## marshall (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> It’s incredibly unlikely. _Because_ he’s police.



Exactly, he’s going down for a long, long time.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> If he manages to plead diminished responsibility it could be possible. The police are a gang after all, they are not bound by legal protocol, only circumventing it.


The cop gang protection stuff doesn't cover this kind of crime. He's going to prison for the rest of his life if he's not offed before he makes it that far.


----------



## marshall (Mar 13, 2021)

Yep, reckon they’d string him up if they could.


----------



## marshall (Mar 13, 2021)

Well, they can. I guess.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


>



So much for the Met banning the rally lol.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The cop gang protection stuff doesn't cover this kind of crime. He's going to prison for the rest of his life if he's not offed before he makes it that far.



If he is offed though, that's a kind of pardoning, albeit not one he'll be able to witness. But it will clean their hands.

Accept my original post didn't indicate that though, because this would not be a pardoning in legal terms.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

Plod grabbing women and throwing them aside on live stream


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> If he is offed though, that's a kind of pardoning, albeit not one he'll be able to witness. But it will clean their hands.


You can't make something mean something it doesn't mean just by saying it you know.


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> You can't make something mean something it doesn't mean just by saying it you know.



See edit to my post.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

dialectician said:


> See edit to my post.


Extrajudicial killing isn't a pardon in any terms though.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Plod grabbing women and throwing them aside on live stream


the idiots. i cant watch but seriously how stupid a decision is that, mind boggles.
Its not like they are unaware that there are existing issues of trust.
Some copper was here in the park after dark the other week in his car parked up asking my friend who had visited me what they were up to (covid regs), i'd be very unhappy about that now.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Plod grabbing women and throwing them aside on live stream


Seen a couple of arrests on the live feed. People are, understandably quite angry.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

footage from the protest is wild. The Met have totally fucked this up, jesus christ.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2021)

Really trying hard not to assume the duchess of Cambridge at the vigil wasn't desperate attempts to patch up some post Meghan PR



teqniq said:


> So much for the Met banning the rally lol.



Met forgot that twitter exists and nobody's got anything to do right now so oh surprise let's go for a "walk" where that vigil was meant to happen.


They've also started kicking off and arresting folk


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

As I left Clapham Common I tweeted to a mate that 5 police vans were haring the other way and I hoped even the Met police weren’t stupid and vicious enough to take their hatred out on women’s bodies today of all days.

But they are.

I was there for an hour and a half, it was peaceful- quietly angry, but peaceful. Couple of cops being followed around by legal observers, lots of tears, some chanting, some clapping, a constant stream of mostly young women arriving, many clutching flowers. Older women like me, many with dogs, bikes or kids, round the edges. Everyone keeping their distance from each other. Almost everyone masked. _this_ is what our state is terrified of, hates and kills.

fucking bleak


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 13, 2021)

Its a lively if peaceful protest, and as per usual instead of just letting it run and letting people vent, you can just predict that the pigs are going to be dicks about it.


----------



## bimble (Mar 13, 2021)

Whoever ordered the police to move in is either just a fucking idiot or something worse.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> Whoever ordered the police to move in is either just a fucking idiot or something worse.


Priti Patel?


----------



## polly (Mar 13, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Priti Patel?



Ticks both boxes


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

Sad to see they succeeded in getting a couple of women through the crowd and into a van, brutalising anyone in the way


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2021)

They just arrested some old guy as well.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 13, 2021)

the met police are continuing to cover themselves in glory snatching women at a vigil for a woman murdered by a met police officer


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

Surprised Patel isn’t on the phone to Dick atm - send in the TSG, how dare these people break my law.
Fuck the police.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Really trying hard not to assume the duchess of Cambridge at the vigil wasn't desperate attempts to patch up some post Meghan PR



was she not arrested? 

[note: I can never remember which one that is]



> Met forgot that twitter exists and nobody's got anything to do right now so oh surprise let's go for a "walk" where that vigil was meant to happen.



Lets hope they don't trawl through twitter posts and claim they were organizing.


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

I guess this is one way to turn what could have been a one-off vigil into a mass protest movement.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Priti Patel?



Piranha Patel & Cressida Dickhead


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



Christ


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



Absolute PR disaster. Should have just stood respectfully at the edge. _Any_ amount of interference would obviously inflame and reflect incredibly badly on them


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

Mrs W was there with W1. Said that it was calm and peaceful and that people were starting to drift away. Then the Met piled in and the whole vibe changed.

Stupid and wrong decision.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2021)

This at first instance down to Lambeth police. 

They've been getting some stick on twitter. 

I found this tweet of theirs particularly offensive.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Absolute PR disaster. Should have just stood respectfully at the edge. _Any_ amount of interference would obviously inflame and reflect incredibly badly on them



Does the MET actually know what PR is? Nah.It’s about doing the fucking right thing.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> This at first instance down to Lambeth police.
> 
> They've been getting some stick on twitter.
> 
> I found this tweet of theirs particularly offensive.




“We’re manhandling women to stick to the rules”


----------



## kittyP (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


>



Fucking hell


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 13, 2021)

As if it was ever going to go any other way


----------



## baldrick (Mar 13, 2021)

How must Sarah's family feel about this?

I was thinking they must be a little comforted by the vigils going on tonight, only to have it all totally fucked up by the Met going in heavy handed.

I just have no idea how they can justify a scene like was posted above in the video. It's appalling.


----------



## SovietArmy (Mar 13, 2021)

Ha Priti will light candle. lol.


----------



## Thora (Mar 13, 2021)

These photos you just think wtf


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

That’s appalling. They just had to stand back and let it happen and it would have just dispersed.


----------



## moomoo (Mar 13, 2021)

baldrick said:


> How must Sarah's family feel about this?
> 
> I was thinking they must be a little comforted by the vigils going on tonight, only to have it all totally fucked up by the Met going in heavy handed.



That was exactly my thought when I saw it earlier. Her poor family. I really hope they haven’t seen it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

There seem to be a lot of men there. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but I had assumed this would be one in which their presence wasn’t required? 
(and it only seemed to be blokes chanting scum)


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 13, 2021)

Not sure which is more depressing, the inevitable fuckup from the met or the ongoing tsunami of shit comments about it from men with flags as part of their name on Twitter.


----------



## fucthest8 (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Does the MET actually know what PR is? Nah.It’s about doing the fucking right thing.



They think that they _are_ the right thing.
Cunts.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


>



what purpose does shoving a tiny lady who is picking up her glasses serve? absolutely horrifying


----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> That’s appalling. They just had to stand back and let it happen and it would have just dispersed.



Yes. This is exactly what Mrs W said.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 13, 2021)

Fuck the police. This is what they do. Every time. They are not the friend of protest.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> There seem to be a lot of men there. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but I had assumed this would be one in which their presence wasn’t required?
> (and it only seemed to be blokes chanting scum)



As men, we can show solidarity you know.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> “We’re manhandling women to stick to the rules”


There’s no intelligence at all is there. Even if you look at outcome, their intervention would not speed dispersal and reduce transmission of the virus. It is utterly pointless, and counterproductive.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 13, 2021)

They’re a fucking disgrace.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> “We’re manhandling women to stick to the rules”



Lambeth police are getting loads of criticism on their twitter. One person pointed out the vigil in Nottingham passed off peacefully.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

Fucking hell. I don’t have the words


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2021)

Cressida Dick is the one who is ultimately responsible for this PR disaster.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As men, we can show solidarity you know.


Sure, it just looked like their presence wasn’t necessarily helping though (esp the cops of course)


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 13, 2021)

I'm in tears of rage watching this fucking mess


----------



## vanya (Mar 13, 2021)

Her Name Was Sarah Everard
					

Her name was Sarah Everard, a woman who was just going about her business. She wore bright clothing on the night of her disappearance and ...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> Her name was Sarah Everard, a woman who was just going about her business. She wore bright clothing on the night of her disappearance and stuck to well-lit streets. She had taken the well-meaning advice issued to women who find themselves outdoors after dark, and this wasn't enough. Someone - a man - decided to make this irrelevant. He decided to abduct Sarah and end take her life. If anything good is to come from this disgusting crime, let it be a change in the politics of women's safety. And it can start with changing the terms of reference: the politics of _male violence_. It's not like women fear going out alone at night because a force of nature will assault them. It's time a spotlight was shone on the behaviour of men, because what happened to Sarah was no isolated incident. Violence against women lies on a continuum ranging from commonplace harassment, comments on the street, unwanted and unasked for attention online, physical and mental domestic abuse all the way up to rape and murder. This is not a case of one or two bad men. This spectrum of gendered violence is sustained by the actions and complicity of millions of men. Perhaps even by some reading these words.
> 
> Entitlement, predatory behaviour, indifference to women's safety and women's voices, it's interesting and telling how social media reaction, including by some women who should know better, have responded by pretending there isn't a problem. That violence toward women by men is not a structural characteristic of gendered relationships and a lived reality of all women. When encountering this resistance to looking at how _so many_ men subject women to intimidation and violence, you're forced to ask why. Why are many men resistant to taking this seriously, or keen to conscript this to Britain's dreary culture wars? Have they something to hide? Scared of confronting their own culpability and responsibility for making women feel unsafe? Unwilling to accept they benefit from the privileges, however meagre, being a man affords them? Is it a fear of being shown up to be a pathetically fragile human being?
> 
> ...


----------



## killer b (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> (and it only seemed to be blokes chanting scum)


nah, when I tuned in there was loads of women shouting All Cops Are Bastards


----------



## teqniq (Mar 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Cressida Dick is the one who is ultimately responsible for this PR disaster.


It is indeed a PR disaster, but I have a feeling that they don't actually care.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 13, 2021)

Did I see correctly that they're being kettled?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They’re a fucking disgrace.




Soon after


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 13, 2021)

Vaccine is going great guns so could be the starting echoes of a long hot summer of protest.

People have a lot of anger to burn after sticking at home for a year.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

By all accounts, Sussex plod acted like a bunch of cunts at the Brighton vigil too. No surprise there then.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 13, 2021)

BBC's _stoicism_ in refusing the cover the arrests is unsurprising, even the Telegraph now has it on its front page


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Vaccine is going great guns so could be the starting echoes of a long hot summer of protest.
> 
> People have a lot of anger to burn after sticking at home for a year.



Government are already trying to put in new laws to make protest more difficult.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

little_legs said:


> what purpose does shoving a tiny lady who is picking up her glasses serve? absolutely horrifying


They do this often at protests to provoke a reaction and justify their disgusting violence
A mate was thrown off a wall by police in Cardiff at a protest, they were the smallest person there, easy target and they got the outrage reaction they wanted and then steamed in on the rest


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

Incredible photo here:


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> There seem to be a lot of men there. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but I had assumed this would be one in which their presence wasn’t required?
> (and it only seemed to be blokes chanting scum)


Most of the women there were young and they had come with their flat mates, some had their boyfriends with them. It was mostly women, but plenty of men.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As men, we can show solidarity you know.



Agreed. That was a bizarre comment. Men would also like to express how disgusted they are with the incident and overall situation.


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> There’s no intelligence at all is there. Even if you look at outcome, their intervention would not speed dispersal and reduce transmission of the virus. It is utterly pointless, and counterproductive.


They did it because they enjoy it.


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> Yes. This is exactly what Mrs W said.


It was fucking cold. Very subdued. Most people were coming and going anyway.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> Agreed. That was a bizarre comment. Men would also like to express how disgusted they are with the incident and overall situation.


Why is it bizarre? AFAIK men weren’t invited to the Slutwalks


----------



## Raheem (Mar 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Cressida Dick is the one who is ultimately responsible for this PR disaster.


Not really a disaster. As planned, imo. Watch how the tabloids cover it in the morning.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

This is the attitude...we all know it.


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> They did it because they enjoy it.


I’m not sure that’s the reason to be honest.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> I’m not sure that’s the reason to be honest.



I have had a lot of contact with the police at protests. They fucking love it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> There seem to be a lot of men there. Maybe I got the wrong end of the stick, but I had assumed this would be one in which their presence wasn’t required?



as the event wasn't officially organised, it's hard to tell.   sisters uncut said (on their twitter) 'all genders welcome' although it wasn't really their event.

it is something of a balancing act - i agree with the principles of today's vigil / protests and would generally agree with a vigil / protest against racism, but i would respect the organisers' wishes if something was announced as a womens' / black peoples' action.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I have had a lot of contact with the police at protests. They fucking love it.


There were some police there who really were loving to ignite the violence and kick, push and throw people about


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I have had a lot of contact with the police at protests. They fucking love it.


I’ve had much less but enough to strongly agree with you


----------



## Edie (Mar 13, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> I have had a lot of contact with the police at protests. They fucking love it.


Seriously? They always look a bit scared to me. I’m sure responses vary.


----------



## jimbarkanoodle (Mar 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Why is it bizarre? AFAIK men weren’t invited to the Slutwalks



Because it seems counterproductive to want to exclude people, who fully agree with the movement and want to help work towards the aims it is gathering for, because they are a certain gender.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> They did it because they enjoy it.





Rutita1 said:


> I have had a lot of contact with the police at protests. They fucking love it.





Miss-Shelf said:


> There were some police there who really were loving to ignite the violence and kick, push and throw people about


_why would a rapist and murderer want to join the police?_ that's why.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Seriously? They always look a bit scared to me. I’m sure responses vary.



Delroy Smellie certainly did when he repeatedly hit Nicola Fisher (G20 protest 2011) round the legs with his asp. And he was as equally pleased when he was cleared of all charges as he left court.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 13, 2021)

This is a masterpiece.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Seriously? They always look a bit scared to me. I’m sure responses vary.


They do love it, seen it lots of times on protests


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Mar 13, 2021)

jimbarkanoodle said:


> Because it seems counterproductive to want to exclude people, who fully agree with the movement and want to help work towards the aims it is gathering for, because they are a certain gender.



And some folk have been asking men what they're going to do to change things...  Showing solidarity at a protest might not be the most important thing, but it is something, provided you've not been explicitly told not to come along and you're not just there to ignite shit.


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 13, 2021)

These images are catastrophic for the Met. Nothing like this should have happened tonight. It's beyond shameful.


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Government are already trying to put in new laws to make protest more difficult.



Bell Ribeiro-Addy is a fucking great MP.


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> As men, we can show solidarity you know.


That's why I went.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 13, 2021)

They hype themselves up, they are a big violent gang on protests. The violence from them is often spiteful and cowardly.

Here in Cardiff the police have been launching dawn raids to arrest people involved in protests against two dubious recent deaths of black young men in custody. Dragging people out of their beds at 5am because they attended a demo. They really are that petty and vindictive.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 13, 2021)

I’m not criticising men’s presence. I was just surprised.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Seriously? They always look a bit scared to me. I’m sure responses vary.



They are cowards of course, and that's why they love to pick on those they know will not fight back.


----------



## tim (Mar 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Not really a disaster. As planned, imo. Watch how the tabloids cover it in the morning.




And current Mail headline is:


* Police manhandle screaming women away as hundreds defy ban to attend Sarah Everard vigil on Clapham Common hours after Kate Middleton visited scene because she 'remembers what it's like being a lone woman walking round London' *


And Andrew Neil has this to say:


----------



## Looby (Mar 13, 2021)

Edie said:


> Seriously? They always look a bit scared to me. I’m sure responses vary.


Nah, they love it. I’ve seen/experienced it too.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> These images are catastrophic for the Met. Nothing like this should have happened tonight. It's beyond shameful.



You can't really have a 'PR catastrophe' if you're the police. Not like we as consumers can take our getting our skulls bashed in needs elsewhere is it?


----------



## souljacker (Mar 13, 2021)

Looby said:


> Nah, they love it. I’ve seen/experienced it too.



I also can confirm. And not just at protests either. They will happily escalate any situation for a fight. They really do love it.


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> You can't really have a 'PR catastrophe' if you're the police. Not like we as consumers can take our getting our skulls bashed in needs elsewhere is it?



I never said it was a PR catastrophe. Quick glance at the papers and the level of repulsion is very telling, though. Cressida Dick won't survive this.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> I never said it was a PR catastrophe. Quick glance at the papers and the level of repulsion is very telling, though. Cressida Dick won't survive this.



I mean she killed a guy and got promoted so...


----------



## BusLanes (Mar 13, 2021)

Lib Dems nationally and locally calling for Cressida to go. Would be about time after Menezes.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 13, 2021)

tim said:


> And current Mail headline is:
> 
> 
> * Police manhandle screaming women away as hundreds defy ban to attend Sarah Everard vigil on Clapham Common hours after Kate Middleton visited scene because she 'remembers what it's like being a lone woman walking round London'*
> ...



I was just looking at some of the press coverage, and TBH, it is different to what I expected to see. Maybe they're in a bit of a bind because of Kate Middleton turning up.

I'd still say give it 24 hours, mind you.


----------



## Looby (Mar 13, 2021)

In my job I see a different side to policing and I have a slightly different perspective as a result. I work fairly closely with them at times and see a caring side but that’s in a particular role within the police. 
In my last job in a housing and support charity, I worked with a bloke who was ex-forces, then a PCSO and about to start his training as an officer.
He was an aggressive, nasty, arrogant cunt. I hated him within a few minutes of meeting him, I knew he was bad. People started refusing to work with him. He told me his favourite about his usual patrol patch was kicking the street sleepers in the underpass and stealing their tents in the park. 
He was reported to management and I believe HR or the manager made contact with police recruitment but he got in and is now a police officer. He was frightening and made no attempt to even pretend he was a reasonable human.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)

Some pics from today 


























						In photos: Vigil for Sarah Everard at the Clapham Common bandstand
					

Despite being banned by the police, a huge crowd gathered around the bandstand in Clapham Common at 6pm today to hold a vigil for Sarah Everard.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## Manter (Mar 13, 2021)

I have to say I’ve never seen such universal revulsion across the political spectrum so quickly. In any sane universe it’s be the end of Dick and Patel; but with this government who fucking knows


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 13, 2021)

The BBC just don't get it, yet again. Their headline: "Sarah Everard: confrontation with police at 'unsafe' vigil".


----------



## editor (Mar 13, 2021)




----------



## Winot (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> I have to say I’ve never seen such universal revulsion across the political spectrum so quickly. In any sane universe it’s be the end of Dick and Patel; but with this government who fucking knows



Patel was gunning for Cressida Dick already wasn’t she. I doubt Patel will go.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 13, 2021)

Not sure whether the police violence was too late to catch the newspapers but several lead with the Peoples' Princess






						Tomorrow's Papers Today - UK Front Pages - Latest Newspaper Headlines
					

All of UK's Tomorrow's Front Pages ✅ Updated Daily between 7PM - 11pm ✅ The Mail, Express, Times, Guardian and many more Proudly supporting #buyapaper




					www.tomorrowspapers.co.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2021)

bbc have deleted this headline







they are also getting quite a lot of shit about this one



they have changed the headline on their website to "Teenage girl fights off man who grabbed her on path"  but this one is still on twitter

this country's fucked, isn't it?


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 13, 2021)

Winot said:


> Patel was gunning for Cressida Dick already wasn’t she. I doubt Patel will go.



They should be charging the burly, brutal male officers who violently grabbed and arrested three passive and peaceful young girls leaning on the barrier. That would be a start.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 13, 2021)

Manter said:


> I have to say I’ve never seen such universal revulsion across the political spectrum so quickly. In any sane universe it’s be the end of Dick and Patel; but with this government who fucking knows


In any sane world dick's career would have ended after the killing of Jean Charles de Menezes while Patel would be in the outer darkness of the Tory backbenches after her foray into international diplomacy


----------



## trashpony (Mar 13, 2021)

One of them looked like he was about to lunge at a woman but was held back by his colleagues.

I always wonder about the women. When you see your peers behaving like absolute dicks, how do you just swallow that and carry on?

My first protest in London was when I was a student. They were forcing us onto the pavement on waterloo bridge so it was getting more and more crowded and my boyfriend stumbled and one foot slipped onto the road. They arrested him and slung him in the back of a van. I was separated from other friends, before phones, didn’t know London at all. I asked them very politely to tell me where they were taking him. They told me to shut up you stupid slag or we’ll arrest you too. I was 18.

Never forgotten it.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 13, 2021)

Apparently they sent in the Territorial Support Group, a riot squad famous for their skull with crossed batons behind it insignia, to attack people who are not even activists, just people who wanted to pay their respects, who probably didn't go to the vigil expecting to be attacked. Smdh.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 13, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> I never said it was a PR catastrophe. Quick glance at the papers and the level of repulsion is very telling, though. Cressida Dick won't survive this.


The police are hopelessly outnumbered in proportion to the population they control. While "policing by consent" might look like a laughable concept today, the fact remains that if a substantial majority of the citizenry take exception to what they are doing, they just don't stand a chance of prevailing.

I quietly hope that, if they're going to mishandle this situation, they mishandle it properly to the point that increasing proportions of the populace start to say "hang on a mo...".

I'd say that their actions tonight have gone a long way to their achieving that own goal.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

little_legs said:


> Apparently they sent in the Territorial Support Group, a riot squad famous for their skull with crossed batons behind it insignia, to attack people who are not even activists, just people who wanted to pay their respects, who probably didn't go to the vigil expecting to be attacked. Smdh.



Not seen any evidence of that yet - though my earlier post wouldn’t be a surprise that they were waiting in the wings. Have seen a few unsubstantiated tweets that an agent provocateur was present, spouting covid guff, only to be nicked by one of his own plain clothed.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 14, 2021)

Blueline twitter is weeping tears for The Real Victims in all this


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> The BBC just don't get it, yet again. Their headline: "Sarah Everard: confrontation with police at 'unsafe' vigil".



Fuck the BBC. Spineless, risible out of touch wankers.


----------



## little_legs (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Not seen any evidence of that yet - though my earlier post wouldn’t be a surprise that they were waiting in the wings. Have seen a few unsubstantiated tweets that an agent provocateur was present, spouting covid guff, only to be nicked by one of his own plain clothed.


One of our friends went there, she saw their trucks.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Blueline twitter is weeping tears for The Real Victims in all this



No wonder if that’s who they sent in


----------



## little_legs (Mar 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Blueline twitter is weeping tears for The Real Victims in all this



Of course. _They persisted._


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

what's the emoticon for thinking this is morally the right thing to do, but that it won't end well...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

little_legs said:


> One of our friends went there, she saw their trucks.



Yeah, waiting in the wings.


----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Not seen any evidence of that yet - though my earlier post wouldn’t be a surprise that they were waiting in the wings. Have seen a few unsubstantiated tweets that an agent provocateur was present, spouting covid guff, only to be nicked by one of his own plain clothed.



Really, there are enough willing conspiraloons  out there without the police having to bother with a_gents provocateurs_.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

Go sisters! Wonder if they’ll wheel out Smellie to beat these women as he so loves to do.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

tim said:


> Really, there are enough willing conspiraloons  out there without the police having to bother with a_gents provocateurs_.



For one, I’m not a conspiraloon, 2 I said unsubstantiated tweets, 3 it wouldn’t fucking surprise me.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 14, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


>



Looks like they're a Legal Observer too


----------



## little_legs (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## tim (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> For one, I’m not a conspiraloon, 2 I said unsubstantiated tweets, 3 it wouldn’t fucking surprise me.



Did I suggest that you were?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

ddraig said:


> Looks like they're a Legal Observer too




LO’s get nicked all the time.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

tim said:


> Did I suggest that you were?



It was the “really” wot done it in response. As if you thought it not possible. DaveCinzano have you seen owt on your time line about agents of the  state?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

Thread!


----------



## little_legs (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2021)

Here's the Lambeth Liberal Democrats statement  regarding the policing of the vigil on Clapham Common this evening. 


The events that have taken place tonight on Clapham Common are the result of a failure of leadership within the Metropolitan Police. Responsibility for this must lie at the top and we call on the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick, to resign her position immediately. This is also a decision for the Mayor, Sadiq Khan and the Home Secretary, Priti Patel as they are responsible for the Commissioner.

ReclaimTheseStreets attempted to organise a peaceful, socially distanced vigil. They engaged with the council and the police, but the police refused to approve the vigil, despite the court action ruling that protest was not unlawful. The events of tonight were avoidable, had the police engaged with the organisers.

Policing by consent requires the Met to work with the people and they have failed in this.

The people of Lambeth have been failed by the actions of the Met whose purpose is to protect our freedoms. The sight of women exercising their freedom to gather, mourn and express solidarity being assaulted by police officers is a gross betrayal.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

I was there between 7 & 8pm - expecting just to see the end of the vigil.

Definitely felt really unsafe while I was there, police in groups of 20 or so, picking people off the bandstand and surging off with them - and for the record, I felt a helluva lot safer walking home to Brixton than I did anywhere the bandstand.

As I left I saw 5 police vans by the (Clapham Common) Windmill, 4 blue 'Territorial Support' vans parked on the main road, and about another 4 police vans further down Windmill Drive.



little_legs said:


> Apparently they sent in the Territorial Support Group, a riot squad famous for their skull with crossed batons behind it insignia, to attack people who are not even activists, just people who wanted to pay their respects, who probably didn't go to the vigil expecting to be attacked. Smdh.



I wrote the above before I knew who Territorial Support Group were...


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

I was alarmed enough by what I'd seen the police doing - groups of 20 suddenly surging through a peaceful group of people - that I took a wide detour through the common to avoid going past them, hence having to cut back past the Windmill.

Really grateful to whoever the orange-jacketed 'observers' were, and to the people filming it properly.


----------



## ash (Mar 14, 2021)

‘Arrest your own’
We left soon after this - the met totally lost it. As we were leaving I heard some cops saying concentrate on the stragglers don’t worry about the bandstand.  I didn’t realise they were planning on kettling!!
Fucking shocking !!


----------



## ash (Mar 14, 2021)

Arrest your own


----------



## Gromit (Mar 14, 2021)

It will be interesting to compare and contrast the media and political responses to this against how the BLM vigils were treated. 

For starters BLM were labelled protests rather than vigils but were essentially the same thing.

Will there be hordes of people on LBC queuing up to condemn the protesters for spreading Covid? As there was for BLM.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

little_legs said:


> Apparently they sent in the Territorial Support Group, a riot squad famous for their skull with crossed batons behind it insignia, to attack people who are not even activists, just people who wanted to pay their respects, who probably didn't go to the vigil expecting to be attacked. Smdh.


Never seen this skull insignia, do you have a picture?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Thread!



tl;dr? We had to destroy the vigil to save it


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's the Lambeth Liberal Democrats statement  regarding the policing of the vigil on Clapham Common this evening.
> 
> 
> The events that have taken place tonight on Clapham Common are the result of a failure of leadership within the Metropolitan Police. Responsibility for this must lie at the top and we call on the Commissioner of the Metropolitan Police, Cressida Dick, to resign her position immediately. This is also a decision for the Mayor, Sadiq Khan and the Home Secretary, Priti Patel as they are responsible for the Commissioner.
> ...


Oh that's a great phrase, the police's purpose is to protect our freedoms.


----------



## girasol (Mar 14, 2021)

Absolutely shocked by the police last night.  Wait, no, actually I wasn't shocked at all.  Because that's what they do.  I ended up not going as I had my vaccine that morning, arm hurt too much and I felt tired, I just couldn't face the cold and crowds.  I did watch the live feed - I honestly thought it was going to be a quiet vigil but I knew as soon as the police turned up that it was going to turn bad.  

I have to thank the police for so clearly illustrating why they can't be trusted - as an institution, because there are good people in the police too.  I felt for some of the cops there who genuinely tried to engage, but you could also tell that many of them see people as "other" and "trouble" rather than the people who they are supposed to protect and serve.


----------



## bimble (Mar 14, 2021)

As a rule i always prefer the fuckup explanation to a more sinister one but this, these pictures, women physically attacked pushed to the ground by policemen for mourning the murder committed by one of them, its just so beyond idiotic i cant do it, can't believe it was just stupidity at play.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> As a rule i always prefer the fuckup explanation to a more sinister one but this, these pictures, women physically attacked pushed to the ground by policemen for mourning the murder committed by one of them, its just so beyond idiotic i cant do it, can't believe it was just stupidity at play.


Allegedly committed. After all he's yet to be convicted.


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Mar 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> There’s no intelligence at all is there. Even if you look at outcome, their intervention would not speed dispersal and reduce transmission of the virus. It is utterly pointless, and counterproductive.


Maybe the risk from this virus is not as great as they proclaim. If they are willing to mix with protesters and potentially infect themselves. 
it’s indefensible and is on a par with the police surrounding Derek Chevins house last year. Thin blue line and all that. Stuff is getting really obvious now. 
will be interesting to hear the police apologists now. Bootlickers r us.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Mar 14, 2021)

I totally understand the calls for Cressida Dick to stand down but can't help seeing the irony that yet again a woman is being held accountable for Male violence.


----------



## Torpid Scorpion (Mar 14, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I totally understand the calls for Cressida Dick to stand down but can't help seeing the irony that yet again a woman is being held accountable for Male violence.



the entire chain of command down to Lambeth should be fired for incompetence along with the tsg leadership. But it won’t happen. Fuck the cops.

Her name was Sarah Everard.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Mar 14, 2021)

I don't know if anyone follows/likes Another Angry Voice on Facebook but he's made another good post on this this morning.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 14, 2021)

The Met's line that they 'had to intervene for reasons of covid safety' puts them in a very difficult position when they now have to police protests against their ridiculous and ill-thought actions last night.  In the face of huge and quite unprecedented condemnation of last night's actions at a vigil, how are they going to justify deescalating such tactics at an actual protest?


----------



## Athos (Mar 14, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I totally understand the calls for Cressida Dick to stand down but can't help seeing the irony that yet again a woman is being held accountable for Male violence.



There's no irony. She's the head of an organisation that fails women in horrific ways every day (perpetuating the structures that enable male violence); her own identity doesn't make her any less culpable.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Mar 14, 2021)

Athos said:


> There's no irony. She's the head of an organisation that fails women in horrific ways every day (perpetuating the structures that enable male violence); her own identity doesn't make her any less culpable.



Yeah, I try not to get too involved in sexism threads these days, but the AAV facebook post I referenced goes on at length about how some women in power don't help ordinary women.  I don't want to post the whole thing here, but it includes examples like this.



> Not a single one of the women in his party voted against Patel's disgusting legislation designed to indemnify male undercover cops, who violate women's lives, by tricking them into sexual relationships.
> Every single Tory MP is so on-board with state violence against other women that they allowed such a depraved piece of legislation to pass through multiple readings in parliament, without a solitary vote against amongst the lot of them.



There's no irony in women being held to account when it's actually deserved.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 14, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Sure, it just looked like their presence wasn’t necessarily helping though (esp the cops of course)



I did not go because I felt a bit awkward on my own as a man attending. I wanted to, but it was niggling me all day so I went with the sensible choice.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 14, 2021)

Is there a follow on protest at Scotland Yard today? I thought I read something.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Is there a follow on protest at Scotland Yard today? I thought I read something.


4pm


----------



## nagapie (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> 4pm


Where did you see that?


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

I searched 'scotland yard' on twitter, lots of people are posting it.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

Got a lot of time for Sisters Uncut.

(moments like these I wished I wasn't so far away as I'd be there)


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Mar 14, 2021)

It's not a gotcha question to ask senior police officers if it's them who are completely unthinking and out of control or the people who they command who are, in which case the upper echelons can't control them. Lose/Lose


----------



## nagapie (Mar 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I searched 'scotland yard' on twitter, lots of people are posting it.


Thanks. I think I will go down. Did not have a babysitter last night.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> As a rule i always prefer the fuckup explanation to a more sinister one but this, these pictures, women physically attacked pushed to the ground by policemen for mourning the murder committed by one of them, its just so beyond idiotic i cant do it, can't believe it was just stupidity at play.


It is an overwhelming amount of stupidity, but institutions can sometimes be more stupid than the individuals in them, and that's saying something with the police. I don't see what they would get out of this that they would have aimed for, though open to suggestions.

On what happens next, Dick's career being sunk would be great but I don't think it would create much change in the police. Is anyone putting forward a list of demands to reduce police violence against women? 

On the protest side, it would be good if it stopped the Tories curtailing the right to protest even further, but given the lack of effective opposition in parliament atm I don't know if that's realistic.


----------



## Santino (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> It will be interesting to compare and contrast the media and political responses to this against how the BLM vigils were treated.
> 
> For starters BLM were labelled protests rather than vigils but were essentially the same thing.
> 
> Will there be hordes of people on LBC queuing up to condemn the protesters for spreading Covid? As there was for BLM.


Fuck off Gromit


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It is an overwhelming amount of stupidity, but institutions can sometimes be more stupid than the individuals in them, and that's saying something with the police. I don't see what they would get out of this that they would have aimed for, though open to suggestions.
> 
> On what happens next, Dick's career being sunk would be great but I don't think it would create much change in the police. Is anyone putting forward a list of demands to reduce police violence against women?
> 
> On the protest side, it would be good if it stopped the Tories curtailing the right to protest even further, but given the lack of effective opposition in parliament atm I don't know if that's realistic.


Ultimately, all that curtailing protest will achieve is to ensure that when the lid does pop off, it will be sudden and inescapable. Yesterday they lorded it over a few thousand peacefully protesting women. They won't have it quite so easy when the crowd is ten times bigger, and ten times angrier.


----------



## bimble (Mar 14, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> It is an overwhelming amount of stupidity, but institutions can sometimes be more stupid than the individuals in them, and that's saying something with the police. I don't see what they would get out of this that they would have aimed for, though open to suggestions.


Not that, not suggesting a cunning evil plan. I was thinking more about the men who did this, not the order but the relish with which it was carried out.


----------



## Gromit (Mar 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The Met's line that they 'had to intervene for reasons of covid safety' puts them in a very difficult position when they now have to police protests against their ridiculous and ill-thought actions last night.  In the face of huge and quite unprecedented condemnation of last night's actions at a vigil, how are they going to justify deescalating such tactics at an actual protest?


Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... They were in a no win scenario. If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.


----------



## killer b (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> They were is a no win scenario. If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.


I think you'd have found overwhelming support in the country for letting a vigil go ahead last night tbh. It wasn't a no win scenario, they literally chose the very worst one.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... They were in a no win scenario. If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.


Perhaps if they stopped looking at every situation in terms of "winning", they might not put their clod hopping feet in it quite so often.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2021)

When you wield power over others the preservation of that power becomes your primary function. It's not necessarily any more complicated than that. Your actions may backfire on you, or not, but you need to tell people firmly who is in charge. (It's also much easier to demonstrate that power over a few hundred peaceful women than it is over a few thousand drunken Rangers supporters).


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... They were in a no win scenario. If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.


Mate, the vigil didn’t turn violent, the cops did.  No win my arse. They could have cooperated with the original organisers. Instead they chose to kettle women, trample flowers and kneel on backs. Covid had nothing to do with it. Closing ranks did.


----------



## Poot (Mar 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not that, not suggesting a cunning evil plan. I was thinking more about the men who did this, not the order but the relish with which it was carried out.


Yeah. I don't want to use the word 'glee' when describing the way that some of the police in the videos appeared to get stuck in but, fuck it, yeah I think that's the word.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... They were in a no win scenario.



Utter tosh. All they had to do was let it go ahead and then weather any criticism with 'in the public interest' type statements whilst centering Sarah Everend and women's grief.

They chose the cause of action that suited them, as they often do and it involved more violence against women.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 14, 2021)

I reckon 4 officers could have worked with that crowd to enhance social distancing if that had been the objective.


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 14, 2021)

kenny g said:


> I reckon 4 officers could have worked with that crowd to enhance social distancing if that had been the objective.


4 female officers


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 14, 2021)

The organisers went to court to try to force the Met to cooperate. Having refused, the police waited until nightfall when many had already left to steam in and assault people. Disgusting, cowardly, and very deliberate.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> 4 female officers


Well, that would have been the thoughtful and sensitive approach to take...

Have the words "thoughtful and sensitive" EVER been used in connection with the Metropolitan Police?


----------



## Winot (Mar 14, 2021)

OH said there were police officers going round the crowd from about 6.30pm with an obvious script along the lines of “you shouldn’t be here because Covid; go home or £200 fine” etc. Very confrontational. 

An alternative script was available (e.g. “we are trying to balance your right to protest with the public health concerns; would you mind moving on once you’ve paid your respects”). The Met chose not to police it in this way.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

As I said last night the person who is ultimately responsible for this violence against women by the Met is Cressida Dick. That is what she gets paid for. The buck stops at the top. That is how the system is supposed to work  That's what I thought management get paid such a lot for. Its why people like her have powerful positions with a lot of status and pay. Unlike the rest of us.


Cressida Dick OBE is a fully paid up member of the establishment. Fastracked for promotion due to her background.

A long career in the police. Including other mess ups. 

I agree with Lambeth LDs in calling for her resignation. I hope local Labour party say the same.

Asking for her to go is the very least that could be done.

As has been pointed out by local MP talks with local police to hold vigil were over ruled from above.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... They were in a no win scenario. If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.


I’m not a great believer in the there is no alternative position . If this scenario was to be re- run in a training exercise I very much doubt if many would advocate the position the Met did. Whilst the Mayor in his position of PCC isn’t involved in operational issues I’m amazed quite frankly that his advisers didn’t flag up the obvious social media traffic that indicated that the vigil would be well attended which would have led to at least a conversation with Dicks as how policing would be handled .


----------



## kenny g (Mar 14, 2021)

Thin edge of the wedge arguments aren't applicable at the best of times and definitely not where a proportionate response is required to keep the public safe. The police failed in their duty to keep the peace.


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 14, 2021)

The indie live streams were certainly getting more footage of police activity last night than all the MSM feeds who seemed to be enclosed and static on a quieter side of the band stand.

On the noisy side, it was interesting to hear the differences between the chants women were starting and the ones men were starting.

I think I made the right choice not to go there as a man on my own.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

Winot said:


> OH said there were police officers going round the crowd from about 6.30pm with an obvious script along the lines of “you shouldn’t be here because Covid; go home or £200 fine” etc. Very confrontational.
> 
> An alternative script was available (e.g. “we are trying to balance your right to protest with the public health concerns; would you mind moving on once you’ve paid your respects”). The Met chose not to police it in this way.



This is exactly what was going on around 7pm-ish, police walking around (in pairs, although there were already a lot of them on the bandstand & large groups standing by, or starting to carry people off) - shouting "anyone who doesn't leave now will be fined or arrested" (exact words) - amongst the people in the area around the bandstand, who were naturally socially distanced (and 99% mask wearing) by that point. Around the benches where people had lights & candles, it wasn't any busier than a regular Saturday afternoon. 

Before I left, it seemed like there were a lot of yellow-jacketed groups of police standing by - in very obvious army-like formation. It looked very much like was intended to scare people into leaving, and I left as soon as I heard someone mention kettling, having come for a quiet vigil not a protest. (Next time, I will be protesting - better prepared & better informed...)  

Even though it was a little later than the official vigil, it mostly seemed to be women about Sarah Everard's age, who looked like they lived nearby & had just walked over.  Alone, with partners, in small groups that could be housemates - normal for Clapham!


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Mar 14, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> The indie live streams were certainly getting more footage of police activity last night than all the MSM feeds who seemed to be enclosed and static on a quieter side of the band stand.
> 
> On the noisy side, it was interesting to hear the differences between the chants women were starting and the ones men were starting.
> 
> I think I made the right choice not to go there as a man on my my own.


Quite a few men were there, some on their own 
I arrived about 6 30 so police had already changed the mood by entering the bandstand 
It was mainly women stating chants from my hearing
Plenty of women saying ACAB,  arrest your own, get your hands of my sister, 

Chants of scum, murderers  were from everyone when police where dragging people away and kicking and flinging people
 out of the way


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> I think I made the right choice not to go there as a man on my own.



I also decided not to go as I felt this was a vigil organised by women for women. Which is fair enough imo.

I can understand some men went to report on the vigil for media. 

I did put donation into the organisers legal fund. Which now looks like will be necessary for some of the women arrested.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

Nanker Phelge said:


> .
> I think I made the right choice not to go there as a man on my own.



There were some men there, they weren't unwelcome - especially the ones acting as observers & filming the police! (This included men & women of course).

But I agree, I think it was good that it was mostly women, so I am glad more weren't there.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2021)

From reddit: "This could have been the photograph on the front pages today such a shame the police had to ruin it"


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

I chatted to a couple of blokes who were there because they lived literally on the edge of the common, they were standing well back, not intruding on women's space, and I encouraged them to stay around as observers (just before I left )

That's fine IMO, glad it didn't attract numbers of men from further afield.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 14, 2021)

Sorry to be asking so many questions on this thread and not really contributing much. Regarding tonight's protests, is there stuff going on around the country too?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 14, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Sorry to be asking so many questions on this thread and not really contributing much. Regarding tonight's protests, is there stuff going on around the country too?



I've heard of vigils in Brighton (which kicked off) and Nottingham (which didn't)


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> The organisers went to court to try to force the Met to cooperate. Having refused, the police waited until nightfall when many had already left to steam in and assault people. Disgusting, cowardly, and very deliberate.



This is exactly what it felt like.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 14, 2021)

Cases like Sarah Everard's are not 'incredibly rare' and the police must admit it
					

Cressida Dick’s statement minimised the risk women face from men – and fits with years of police and government failure to treat the issue seriously




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2021)

Ms Ordinary said:


> There were some men there, they weren't unwelcome - especially the ones acting as observers & filming the police! (This included men & women of course).
> 
> But I agree, I think it was good that it was mostly women, so I am glad more weren't there.


Given the circumstances, I was hyper sensitive but didn't feel unwelcome in the slightest at any point. If I had, I would have left immediately. I'm glad I went along to support the vigil.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 14, 2021)

https://www.youtube.com/c/SubjectAc...&rootVe=3611&disable_polymer=true&rootVe=3611  is a good stream of the event. The guy has been recording all the covid fruit loopery protests over the past few months.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 14, 2021)

Turned out there was a vigil local to me but I didn't find out about it until this morning even though I went looking for the info. Presumably that means there could be a protest near me this afternoon too? I wonder if the best thing to do is just wonder around town at 4pm and see if I can spot one?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 14, 2021)

Ms Ordinary said:


> There were some men there, they weren't unwelcome - especially the ones acting as observers & filming the police! (This included men & women of course).
> 
> But I agree, I think it was good that it was mostly women, so I am glad more weren't there.



I hadn't for one moment thought I'd be unwelcome, and the all event info suggested it was an open event, so that was the least of my considerations around me going along. I had lots of thoughts, but not that one.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 14, 2021)

As others have said, it was peaceful and fairly well distanced, I was about to leave around 6.30ish as it was dark and cold by then, and other people were drifting away too; then the police moved onto the bandstand and everyone moved forward to see what was happening, and I decided to stick around to see what the Met were playing at. Im sure many others stayed longer, and bunched up closer for the same reasons.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Mar 14, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> Regarding tonight's protests, is there stuff going on around the country too?



Chatter of a protest outside Brighton plod station at 4pm, due to their woeful display last night.


----------



## Gromit (Mar 14, 2021)

After listening to LBC I’ve changed my stance. 

Other police forces around the country agreed safe gatherings. 
No problems occurred. 

Protest are not illegal. There is no blanket against protests. The met were aware of this. 

Met refused to agree any kind of gathering and made a conscious decision to arrest individuals at the scene. 

The met once again act like scum though choice not circumstance.


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Not seen any evidence of that yet - though my earlier post wouldn’t be a surprise that they were waiting in the wings. Have seen a few unsubstantiated tweets that an agent provocateur was present, spouting covid guff, only to be nicked by one of his own plain clothed.


Piers Corbyn pitched up, forced his way into the bandstand and raved for a bit, before a couple of policemen quietly removed him. Then we carried on calmly and respectfully for an hour before the police decided they fancied a bit of violence


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

little_legs said:


>



No, first editions went out at about 8pm. Second editions mostly led with the photo of Patsy S


----------



## dessiato (Mar 14, 2021)

My nephew, a caring, sensitive young man has joined the Met. I fear for what this will make him.


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

Ms Ordinary said:


> I was alarmed enough by what I'd seen the police doing - groups of 20 suddenly surging through a peaceful group of people - that I took a wide detour through the common to avoid going past them, hence having to cut back past the Windmill.
> 
> Really grateful to whoever the orange-jacketed 'observers' were, and to the people filming it properly.


If you saw anything specific, write it down and send it to green and black cross. May be useful in court later x


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Winot said:


> OH said there were police officers going round the crowd from about 6.30pm with an obvious script along the lines of “you shouldn’t be here because Covid; go home or £200 fine” etc. Very confrontational.
> 
> An alternative script was available (e.g. “we are trying to balance your right to protest with the public health concerns; would you mind moving on once you’ve paid your respects”). The Met chose not to police it in this way.




I heard one P.O. saying “I encourage you to start leaving now” as he and his partner wandered through the crowd but I could also hear the raised voices of other officers bellowing more confrontational stuff elsewhere.

I left as soon as I felt the mood shift. I’ve been at enough protests to be able to tell when that happens and I’m just not so strong and nimble as I was, so I decided to leave it in the hands of my younger sisters. I went to the quieter vigil (no cops at all) at Poynder’s Court and stayed there for a while. Passers by were stopping to pay their respects and read the messages, a couple of women with their fellas beside them, some of us just alone, holding vigil. Tears aplenty, very little chat. Numbers fluctuated from one or two up to eight or nine, down to just a few again. I stayed about half an hour.

Got home in time to put a candle lantern and a written sign for Sarah Everard on New Park Road, along where she would have walked had she gotten home safely.



As someone else said, it looked a lot as if the cops waited for nightfall before they got busy at Clapham. It was quiet and somber, very focussed on the matter at hand before the cops intervened. It felt private.

But then the cops stopped women from speaking. For me, that was the issue. Women were speaking without a megaphone, their words being repeated by the crowd so everyone could hear. But then police intervened somehow (I was too far back to see what they actually did ) and the cry went up “Let her speak!” It was the utter absurdity and pure hypocrisy in that, I think, that caused the mood to shift. That’s when the chanting started, the crowd calling in unison “whose streets, our streets, no justice no peace” (which seemed to be started by a Black man standing near me... it felt like he’d connected the BLM movement to this, and it felt like Brotherhood) and then “arrest your own”. Seemed to me like cops near me really didn’t like that, a bunch of women calling them out for hypocrisy, that was another little flip moment.




Please excuse the possible romanticism in my interpretation. I can only report what my own observation told me, and I was in an emotional state of mind.


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Utter tosh. All they had to do was let it go ahead and then weather any criticism with 'in the public interest' type statements whilst centering Sarah Everend and women's grief.
> 
> They chose the cause of action that suited them, as they often do and it involved more violence against women.


Yup. And it was a weird, subdued event that was already petering out. There wouldn’t even have been any front page photos, just Kate and flowers from earlier in the day.


----------



## sparkybird (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Protest are not illegal. There is no blanket against protests. The met were aware of this.


Yes but they will be if Patel gets her way this week 








						Silencing Black Lives Matter: Priti Patel's anti-protest law - Politics.co.uk
					

It is cancel culture on a statutory footing, directed against the left.




					www.politics.co.uk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 14, 2021)

Sarah Vine can fuck off.


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I heard one P.O. saying “I encourage you to start leaving now” as he and his partner wandered through the crowd but I could also hear the raised voices of other officers bellowing more confrontational stuff elsewhere.
> 
> I left as soon as I felt the mood shift. I’ve been at enough protests to be able to tell when that happens and I’m just not so strong and nimble as I was, so I decided to leave it in the hands of my younger sisters. I went to the quieter vigil (no cops at all) at Poynder’s Court and stayed there for a while. Passers by were stopping to pay their respects and read the messages, a couple of women with their fellas beside them, some of us just alone, holding vigil. Tears aplenty, very little chat. Numbers fluctuated from one or two up to eight or nine, down to just a few again. I stayed about half an hour.
> 
> ...


I went to Poynders Court too. Blonde, green ski jacket. We probably saw each other and didn’t even know


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> After listening to LBC I’ve changed my stance.
> 
> Other police forces around the country agreed safe gatherings.
> No problems occurred.
> ...



I was just going to say this. Here is the statement from Reclaim the Streets



The decision to not work with the organisers is to be laid at door of Cressida Dick. Who should go. 

Noticed she sent out someone else to give statement. She the overall person responsible has gone to ground.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

Manter said:


> Piers Corbyn pitched up, forced his way into the bandstand and raved for a bit, before a couple of policemen quietly removed him. Then we carried on calmly and respectfully for an hour before the police decided they fancied a bit of violence



Ah, this makes sense of what people who were there earlier were trying to describe to me about the one bit of the vigil that made no sense to them - they had no idea who he was.



Manter said:


> quietly removed him


 about the only sensible thing they did all night...


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

Ms Ordinary said:


> Ah, this makes sense of what people who were there earlier were trying to describe to me about the one bit of the vigil that made no sense to them - they had no idea who he was.
> 
> about the only sensible thing they did all night...


I had a conversation with someone I know after and we were like ‘ooh, sensible policing’ and then all hell broke loose


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Manter said:


> Yup. And it was a weird, subdued event that was already petering out. There wouldn’t even have been any front page photos, just Kate and flowers from earlier in the day.



Was it petering out?
That’s not the impression I got when I arrived at about 6:00. There were certainly people leaving as I arrived, but also plenty of people arriving and the crowd seemed very focused. 

I agree it would have thinned out and ended quite naturally as it got colder and darker, without the need for aggressive policing.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

Manter said:


> If you saw anything specific, write it down and send it to green and black cross. May be useful in court later x



There probably isn't, as I was well mostly well back, just observing the mood (and like a few others, it was only seeing the uncomfortable mood that made me stay longer than I intended) - I arrived to hear "Let her speak" & it was a few minutes before I realised "get your hands off my sister" wasn't rhetorical, or referring to this weeks news, it was because of what police were actually doing that moment 

But off to google green & black cross now, ta x


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 14, 2021)

It's a myth that people like Cressida Dick and institutions like the met are particularly intelligent, because it lets people who are supposed to be defending us from them off the hook when they look the other way (eg Labour). And I suppose because the myth of mertiocracy is really engrained in our culture too. That's why stuff like this happens. It's because they're thick as shit.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 14, 2021)

Giving Piers Corbyn a platform is no doubt what triggered the OB


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I was just going to say this. Here is the statement from Reclaim the Streets
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The comments below are, as ever, disappointing.


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 14, 2021)

IC3D said:


> Giving Piers Corbyn a platform is no doubt what triggered the OB



I don't think Corbyn should have been there at all if he was hijacking the event to spout anti-vax crap.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> I don't think Corbyn should have been there at all if he was hijacking the event to spout anti-vax crap.


We don't know why he was there, but I'd put money on his not having been invited, but found the prospect of a little opportunity to get his face on camera too irresistible.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Might not do much but emailed my local MP cc my Lambeth Labour Cllrs to ask MP to support LD calls for Cressida Dick to resign.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> The comments below are, as ever, disappointing.



Just went back to look at the comments. Yes lot of disappointing ones but also some good ones. Several pointing out that the bill before the parliament tomorrow is going to restrict protest.


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

IC3D said:


> Giving Piers Corbyn a platform is no doubt what triggered the OB



is this sarcasm? I mean presumably you’ve been reading what people who were there have said about what went down.


----------



## Edie (Mar 14, 2021)

Manter said:


> Piers Corbyn pitched up, forced his way into the bandstand and raved for a bit, before a couple of policemen quietly removed him. Then we carried on calmly and respectfully for an hour before the police decided they fancied a bit of violence


What an absolute fucking entitled arse that man is, cannot stand him.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 14, 2021)

Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


You are not the only one who is mystified.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 14, 2021)

xenon said:


> is this sarcasm? I mean presumably you’ve been reading what people who were there have said about what went down.


Do you think he helped then?


----------



## Edie (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


Because there are people who go to protests just because they are protests. It’s a fucking circuit. And completely devalues the point. Plus he’s a man with a loud voice from a middle class white family. Urgh absolute cretin.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I heard one P.O. saying “I encourage you to start leaving now” as he and his partner wandered through the crowd but I could also hear the raised voices of other officers bellowing more confrontational stuff elsewhere.
> 
> I left as soon as I felt the mood shift. I’ve been at enough protests to be able to tell when that happens and I’m just not so strong and nimble as I was, so I decided to leave it in the hands of my younger sisters. I went to the quieter vigil (no cops at all) at Poynder’s Court and stayed there for a while. Passers by were stopping to pay their respects and read the messages, a couple of women with their fellas beside them, some of us just alone, holding vigil. Tears aplenty, very little chat. Numbers fluctuated from one or two up to eight or nine, down to just a few again. I stayed about half an hour.
> 
> ...



I’ve just been out to retrieve the white board I put out last night, and it’s been moved to a more prominent spot and some flowers have been put there. So I’ll leave it where it is.


----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Might not do much but emailed my local MP cc my Lambeth Labour Cllrs to ask MP to support LD calls for Cressida Dick to resign.


There's a petition - yes I know much good it may do but it's attracted over 15,000 signatures:









						Cressida Dick must resign over vigil policing
					

The scenes of women being arrested at the #ClaphamCommon #ReclaimTheseStreets vigil for Sarah Everard are shocking – and shameful for the police. Cressida Dick, police commissioner, must resign.



					r.ippl.es


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 14, 2021)

This is probably too late to be of any use, but if anyone thinking of attending events today or over the next few days has a printer, I would strongly suggest printing off as many of these as you feel able:
standard GBC/Netpol/ACAB bustcard (A4 print version)
Black Protest Legal Support’s bustcard with Covid-19 info
Shareable version for social media:








Key messages from GBC:





			
				GBC said:
			
		

> Planning to be out on a #ReclaimTheseStreets protest on Saturday? Here are our top legal tips to remember - we need you to learn your rights & share these key messages by retweeting!
> 1. NO COMMENT! You’re usually not required to answer police questions, so don’t. - Say ‘no comment’. This includes ‘friendly chats’, on the streets, in a police van & during interview. PLOs (officers in blue bibs) are trained intelligence gatherers - remember ‘NO COMMENT’
> 2. NO PERSONAL DETAILS! You DON’T legally have to give personal details when you’re being stopped & searched & you usually don’t need to give personal details to police anyway. There are some exceptions:
> Exceptions: - If you’re arrested many people choose to give their name, address, & date of birth (nothing else) when they get to the custody desk (not before, not in the streets or in the police van) as not giving this can delay release
> ...


More graphics and resources here: Graphics and Resources | Green and Black Cross


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

editor said:


> View attachment 258689


One of life's triangle players...he's that fucking tone-deaf.


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Might not do much but emailed my local MP cc my Lambeth Labour Cllrs to ask MP to support LD calls for Cressida Dick to resign.



It's really grim that Labour isn't calling for Dick to go. Starmer has been such a fence-sitting disappointment on a whole raft of issues.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

wurlycurly said:


> It's really grim that Labour isn't calling for Dick to go. Starmer has been such a fence-sitting disappointment on a whole raft of issues.


You won't believe what he doesn't do next


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This is probably too late to be of any use, but if anyone thinking of attending events today or over the next few days has a printer, I would strongly suggest printing off as many of these as you feel able:
> standard GBC/Netpol/ACAB bustcard (A4 print version)
> Black Protest Legal Support’s bustcard with Covid-19 info
> Shareable version for social media:
> ...




I hope that comes in a printer friendly version because otherwise that's a lot of black ink


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I hope that comes in a printer friendly version because otherwise that's a lot of black ink




I was just thinking the same thing!


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 14, 2021)

Yep, printer-friendly version here (although this is from last summer, whereas the black ink-heavy one has been updated more recently, not sure what the specific differences are):


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This is probably too late to be of any use, but if anyone thinking of attending events today or over the next few days has a printer, I would strongly suggest printing off as many of these as you feel able:
> standard GBC/Netpol/ACAB bustcard (A4 print version)
> Black Protest Legal Support’s bustcard with Covid-19 info
> Shareable version for social media:
> ...



Even if its too late this time (which it might not be) it's good to get this info out now while we've got everyone's attention for next time


----------



## hitmouse (Mar 14, 2021)

Yeah, and if people don't have printers I would still very very strongly advise them to note down some of those numbers, esp 07946 541 511.


----------



## wurlycurly (Mar 14, 2021)

This is from Nimco Ali, the government's adviser on violence against women and girls: "Honestly, it [the Met tactics] does come from the handbook of abusive men, where … you’re constantly blaming the victim for your act of violence, so rather than actually taking accountability it was more like ‘women should not have turned up’. The police had the opportunity to choose how they reacted and they reacted in a terrible way and a disproportionate way." Spot on.


----------



## xenon (Mar 14, 2021)

IC3D said:


> Do you think he helped then?



of course not. But he clearly wasn’t invited. And he clearly didn’t trigger the police. Sounds to me like they were told to take a tough line on this. Individual offices might have interprete this with more or less zeal. But still that was the plan. Corbin or no Corbin.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

I see that Labour are now opposing the new police and crime bill rather than abstaining - why the fuck would they abstain in the first place anyway?


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2021)

police trampled the flowers didn't they? Criminal damage you'd think


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> I hope that comes in a printer friendly version because otherwise that's a lot of black ink



Sorted.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> I see that Labour are now opposing the new police and crime bill rather than abstaining - why the fuck would they abstain in the first place anyway?


Because Starmer's basically a Tory in a red tie.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Sorted.
> 
> View attachment 258694
> 
> View attachment 258695


Wonder whether that'll still stand after the new policing law comes in. :


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Because Starmer's basically a Tory in a red tie.



not even that a lot of the time


----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> This is probably too late to be of any use, but if anyone thinking of attending events today or over the next few days has a printer, I would strongly suggest printing off as many of these as you feel able:
> standard GBC/Netpol/ACAB bustcard (A4 print version)
> Black Protest Legal Support’s bustcard with Covid-19 info
> Shareable version for social media:
> ...



Thanks for this - I've posted something on Buzz to spread the word. 









						Know your rights at a protest during lockdown – info and resources, March 2021
					

In the wake of police activates at the recent  #ReclaimTheseStreets protest in Clapham Common, legal resources collective Green & Black Cross have published useful guidelines explaining your ri…



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## Thora (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


Some men believe their input is required/welcomed everywhere.


----------



## Manter (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


He’d turn up to the opening of a bin if he thought he could cause trouble


----------



## danny la rouge (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> I see that Labour are now opposing the new police and crime bill rather than abstaining - why the fuck would they abstain in the first place anyway?


Starmer’s a cop.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> There's a petition - yes I know much good it may do but it's attracted over 15,000 signatures:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks. Signed. It is well worded petition


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

danny la rouge existentialist The question was semi-rhetorical.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> danny la rouge existentialist The question was semi-rhetorical.


Too late now 

But it's also exactly what I thought when I saw the images, so since you mentioned it, I thought I'd make the (miniscule) effort to whack them through Gimp.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Too late now
> 
> But it's also exactly what I thought when I saw the images, so since you mentioned it, I thought I'd make the (miniscule) effort to whack them through Gimp.


Here, I am referring to this post:



existentialist said:


> Because Starmer's basically a Tory in a red tie.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Mar 14, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Starmer’s a cop.


indeed


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

an aside - past tense blog (london radical history) have done  a post today about some of the 1970s 'reclaim the night' actions and police reaction to them


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

Live stream from New Scotland Yard...


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Mar 14, 2021)

Apologies if this has been posted already.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

That's a lot of people.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> That's a lot of people.



Particularly as not nearly so well publicised, and not 15 minutes walk from many peoples front doors.
(I am not there now, but glad a lot of people are!)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

dialectician said:


> Apologies if this has been posted already.



Can't do that when dick and her cabal make decisions as they did yesterday


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> That's a lot of people.



I think it’s a really significant number of people. Mostly women, from what I can see. Really impressive turn out,

But they’re just entering Parliament Square in large number now, so I expect they’ll be kettled pretty soon.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 14, 2021)

Arse covering from Patel here:


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Arse covering from Patel here:



lessons learned, draw a line, move on, blah blah, business as usual


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Live stream from New Scotland Yard...




Thanks for the link. Just watched some of it. Woman from BLM drawing links between what happened last night and experience of those involved in BLM last year. Calling for Cressida Dick and Priti Patel to both go to loud cheers. Also pointing out the policing bill up in Parliament tomorrow will restrict right to protest if passed.

Good to see people supporting each others struggles. Rather than rivalry.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2021)

Gromit said:


> Not that I’m by any way a fan or apologist for the filth but... *They were in a no win scenario.* If they’d not enforced the laws against mass gathering this time they’d be criticised for enforcing future gatherings by extinction rebellion and BLM and for their past policing of such.



The police in Nottingham would seem to disagree with you.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Chatter of a protest outside Brighton plod station at 4pm, due to their woeful display last night.



Road outside the police station blocked with a good number of protesters.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Arse covering from Patel here:



Can't really hurt a Home Sec for the most part. Create the hostile environment in the first place, preside over reactionary and poorly drafted laws for public gatherings and protest, expect the police to carry it out, and when they enact it badly, EXPRESS YOUR CONCERNS and demand a report/inquiry, or when it goes seriously tits up for you, lean on someone suitably high up such as a commissioner to take the blame, whilst still sitting comfortably. And so it goes.


* Cressida Dick can fuck off too though


----------



## bimble (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Might not do much but emailed my local MP cc my Lambeth Labour Cllrs to ask MP to support LD calls for Cressida Dick to resign.


Noticed that Helen Hayes (on the twitter) has been unequivocal in support of Reclaim These Streets, clear that she was attending and then not mincing her words afterwards, which is something.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Cressida Dick according to Guardian refusing to go and defends police action last night. 

*



			If it had been lawful, I'd have been there', says Cressida Dick of vigil
		
Click to expand...

*


> The Met police commissioner has said “none of us would have wanted to see the scenes we saw at yesterday’s event”.
> She said she fully understands the strength of feeling from people and why so many wanted to come and pay their respects.
> Dick adds that “if it had been lawful, if it had been a vigil - I’d have been there”.
> Six hours of yesterday was really calm and peaceful, respectful, with people laying flowers and not gathering, she said.
> Unfortunately later on, a really big crowd gathered, and “quite rightly”, police officers saw this as in breach of the Covid regulations and moved to get people to disperse from the unlawful gathering.











						Sarah Everard vigils: Cressida Dick says she will not resign – as it happened
					

Dick ‘not considering position’; investigations ordered by Priti Patel and Sadiq Khan; government adviser says policing ‘from handbook of abusive men’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

So is Cressida Dick going to do anything about the member of the royalty who went?


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

I find it disingenuous for head of the Met to argue "none of us wanted to see the scenes we saw at yesterday's events" 

Using the "we" is a way of displacing the responsibility she has as head of the Met away from her. 

She is not a member of the public. She is a top person in the UK police.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> So is Cressida Dick going to do anything about the member of the royalty who went?



Probably mistake her for Meghan Markle and have her shot.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Noticed that Helen Hayes (on the twitter) has been unequivocal in support of Reclaim These Streets, clear that she was attending and then not mincing her words afterwards, which is something.



She has been a good MP. This tweet shows the Met had been urged to work with organisers by some London politicians. Really Met leadership have no excuses for what happened last night.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I find it disingenuous for head of the Met to argue "none of us wanted to see the scenes we saw at yesterday's events"
> 
> Using the "we" is a way of displacing the responsibility she has as head of the Met away from her.
> 
> She is not a member of the public. She is a top person in the UK police.


I am sure that given the sensitivity of the vigil yesterday a very senior officer authorised or ordered what happened


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for the link. Just watched some of it. Woman from BLM drawing links between what happened last night and experience of those involved in BLM last year. Calling for Cressida Dick and Priti Patel to both go to loud cheers. Also pointing out the policing bill up in Parliament tomorrow will restrict right to protest if passed.
> 
> Good to see people supporting each others struggles. Rather than rivalry.




This is why it felt good for a Black brother to raise the chant for “no justice no peace” where I was standing last night at the Clapham bandstand.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I am sure that given the sensitivity of the vigil yesterday a very senior officer authorised or ordered what happened


Yes, I am sure it came from the very top. Along with something about "sending a strong message", or similarly weaselly-worded plausible deniables.


----------



## kenny g (Mar 14, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> So is Cressida Dick going to do anything about the member of the royalty who went?



I am sure the position will that that was during the more fragrant times of the event.


----------



## editor (Mar 14, 2021)




----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Statement from Lambeth Labour ( Clapham Common is in Lambeth where the vigil took place) 

The statement refers several times to the leadership of the Met. Been following this and its looking like local Lambeth police were over ruled by Cressida Dick. Disappointing that Lambeth Labour are not calling for resignation. But for Lambeth Labour leadership ( run by right of party) this is strongly worded statement.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

sadiq khan appears not to be impressed







from tweeter (includes link to text version)


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

editor said:


>




One banner says:

Police abuse the powers they have. 
Police don't keep us safe. 
Defund the Police. 

Another link with the BLM protests last year. 

Thought that banner made good point.


----------



## Gromit (Mar 14, 2021)

Louis MacNeice said:


> The police in Nottingham would seem to disagree with you.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Yeah. One of the reasons I changed my mind. (See later post).


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 14, 2021)

Sisters Uncut: Feministo
					

We are Sisters Uncut. As women and gender-variant people who live under the threat of domestic violence, we fight alongside all those who experience domestic, sexual, gendered, and state violence in their daily lives. We are fighting for our right to live in safety. We are fighting for our...




					www.sistersuncut.org
				




They have been involved in the vigil yesterday and demo today. 

The list of demands on the website make a lot of sense. Proper funding of services, public housing, decent benefits, opposing anti immigration rules etc


----------



## SovietArmy (Mar 14, 2021)

Priti, Stamer and other idiots, underminde society by protending about woman rights reality their don't give a fuck about people.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 14, 2021)

Obviously the Met's leadership has taken a long hard look at the events yesterday, reflected upon command decisions made, and realised that a fresh approach needs to be employed



Okay maybe not


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 14, 2021)

Jesus


----------



## kenny g (Mar 14, 2021)

Watching the stream and looks like as usual ending up in Westminster is a bad idea for protests. You are on their home turf and they are past masters at (mis)directing the crowd.


----------



## bimble (Mar 14, 2021)

This is arrogance beyond measure, it’s nobody can legitimately criticise the actions of the police, ever, the police are always right.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 14, 2021)

was she sitting back in an armchair at the time?


----------



## MickiQ (Mar 14, 2021)

After it came out that they had arrested a serving police officer, I thought to myself that this is a PR disaster that couldn't get any worse for the Met. Clearly they are hell bent on proving me wrong.


----------



## nagapie (Mar 14, 2021)

It was peaceful when I was down there but I left before dark.


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Mar 14, 2021)

The protest outside Brighton police station moved down to the site of the original vigil. This time the police kept out of it and everything went off without incident. It would seem that the Sussex force did at least a little of the learning that their Met counterparts seem incapable of.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice

p.s. hugely proud of my 20 year old daughter who took part in the original vigil and today's response.


----------



## Little Piranha (Mar 14, 2021)

Peaceful though angry when I was there too, we left when they announced the meeting ended though which was pretty early. I would have stayed but i was with my mum and she was worried about getting a fpn as she really can't afford it ATM. 

I went to the bandstand afterwards, was extremely emotional. The messages and atmosphere was very powerful. Lots of people quietly reading and crying. There were two fuckuing plod standing there, made me absolutely raging. There was zero reason for them to be there and it's the last thing anyone wants to see. There was a woman having a go at them for the way she was treated by them after an assault, but nothing gets through to those cunts.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

I think I’ll re-start my lapsed habit of flicking the V at every copper I see.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 14, 2021)

Imagine if every woman in the land did, this for a while at least.





I spoke with a man friend today. He phoned specifically because he was outraged about the way everything was handled and especially the police response last night, and he knew I’d have been there. He wanted to offer solidarity. He said “Of course it would cause defiance” and I said “It’s not defiance. It’s a response. Why is it “defiant” for women to respond to violence with refusal to shut up and go away? Saying it was _defiant women_ is like saying it was _uppity women_ .” He agreed and apologised.

Point being, here’s an ally, a good man, displaying - at the very least - patriarchal habits of speech.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 14, 2021)

Sharing this here as some may want to participate or share so others can participate. Nearly 20k responses so far. Could be one of the biggest studies done on this topic, so would contribute some significant stats: 






						Experiences of violence and abuse of UK women
					

Welcome to our study, which is planned to run every year to collect the experiences of women and girls subjected to violence and abuse in the UK



					freeonlinesurveys.com


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 14, 2021)

SE London blog 'Transpontine' has referred back to a piece from a few years ago about the 1980 SE London Women Against Rape demonstration.

I don't feel inspired that things have changed much...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> After it came out that they had arrested a serving police officer, I thought to myself that this is a PR disaster that couldn't get any worse for the Met. Clearly they are hell bent on proving me wrong.


The met are capable of exceeding your expectations


----------



## weepiper (Mar 14, 2021)

Some pictures of tributes to Sarah from women in Glasgow and Edinburgh here.








						In pictures: Scotland's tributes to Sarah Everard
					

Ribbons replace Reclaim These Streets vigil in Glasgow as candles are lit outside Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> As a rule i always prefer the fuckup explanation to a more sinister one but this, these pictures, women physically attacked pushed to the ground by policemen for mourning the murder committed by one of them, its just so beyond idiotic i cant do it, can't believe it was just stupidity at play.


They were there to stick up for their colleague.


----------



## mx wcfc (Mar 14, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They were there to stick up for their colleague.


No, I don't think it was that.  I don't think they were sticking up for the murderer.

I think cops are just bastards who just love steaming in and battering/nicking people and fucking their victims lives up.  Been on enough demos (and football stuff) to know that.  

Met - Biggest gang in town.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 14, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> No, I don't think it was that.  I don't think they were sticking up for the murderer.
> 
> I think cops are just bastards who just love steaming in and battering/nicking people and fucking their victims lives up.  Been on enough demos (and football stuff) to know that.
> 
> Met - Biggest gang in town.


I don't suppose they're all like that, but enough are that I am sure the prevailing organisational culture is quite heavily dominated by their views. You probably have to be a brave copper to be seen not to be falling into line. And when shit like that happens in corporations and the like, you start looking at the management chain rather closely...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They were there to stick up for their colleague.


No they weren't. They were following orders. And they are authoritarian, reactionary, misogynistic bullies. At least enough of them are. They'll stick up for current colleagues, team mates etc. But even that lot wouldn't try and defend the reputation of a rapist murderer. And yet they couldn't care less about how other people see them. They're so used to being despised and distrusted that they get used to it. It becomes normal. They also know that lefties, feminists, gay people, ethnic minorities etc hold them in very low esteem. They've already chosen their side in the class war/race war/culture war. So they weren't sticking up for some police killer, just behaving normally.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 14, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Why was Corbyn there in the first place?


Anti-lockdown agenda.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No they weren't. They were following orders. And they are authoritarian, reactionary, misogynistic bullies. At least enough of them are. They'll stick up for current colleagues, team mates etc. But even that lot wouldn't try and defend the reputation of a rapist murderer. And yet they couldn't care less about how other people see them. They're so used to being despised and distrusted that they get used to it. It becomes normal. They also know that lefties, feminists, gay people, ethnic minorities etc hold them in very low esteem. They've already chosen their side in the class war/race war/culture war. So they weren't sticking up for some police killer, just behaving normally.


They clearly regarded the women at the vigil as enemies to be crushed. That's more than just following orders in the culture wars.


----------



## Little Piranha (Mar 14, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They were there to stick up for their colleague.


I think they hate him for embarrassing them, but the shame of it has made them double down even more to brazen it out. If they acted more sensitively they think it would be admitting some kind of culpability.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 14, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They clearly regarded the women at the vigil as enemies to be crushed. That's more than just following orders in the culture wars.


Of course, women disobeying orders is even worse than men doing so. All I was saying is, don't get too carried away with the accusations.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 14, 2021)

Little Piranha said:


> I think they hate him for embarrassing them, but the shame of it has made them double down even more to brazen it out. If they acted more sensitively they think it would be admitting some kind of culpability.


Yes, and that's what I mean by "they were there to stick up for their colleague".


----------



## Little Piranha (Mar 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Yes, and that's what I mean by "they were there to stick up for their colleague".


I don't think it's really the same thing. I don't think they want to stand up for him personally. If anything they want to distance themselves as much as they can from him, and their fucked up way to do that is to try to show that they're not taking it in to consideration at all because he's a crazy anomaly. So they have to be extra shit in case someone thinks that the reason they're being hands off is because they're ashamed and they have a responsibility for it.


----------



## Little Piranha (Mar 15, 2021)

That said, it's not like they need any reason to be cunts...


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They were there to stick up for their colleague.




Even the idea of this causes my heart to sink.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> No, I don't think it was that.  I don't think they were sticking up for the murderer.
> 
> I think cops are just bastards who just love steaming in and battering/nicking people and fucking their victims lives up.  Been on enough demos (and football stuff) to know that.
> 
> Met - Biggest gang in town.




Yep.

I reckon that in the absence of anything else to do (because they are morally bankrupt) they just do the Big Boy playground bully thing by force of habit.


I said to a pal a few days ago, they’ll either rally round him or throw him to the wolves. He doesn’t appear to be enough in the gang to draw the rally-round thing, so he’s mince meat. He knows this, hence beating his head against the wall.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> They clearly regarded the women at the vigil as enemies to be crushed. That's more than just following orders in the culture wars.



It’s like an archetype let loose, these fucks.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Little Piranha said:


> I think they hate him for embarrassing them, but the shame of it has made them double down even more to brazen it out. If they acted more sensitively they think it would be admitting some kind of culpability.




I can’t get rid of this image of some copper pissing on his head while he’s head bleeding on the cell floor. Their deep rage at him must be immense,


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Little Piranha said:


> I don't think it's really the same thing. I don't think they want to stand up for him personally. If anything they want to distance themselves as much as they can from him, and their fucked up way to do that is to try to show that they're not taking it in to consideration at all because he's a crazy anomaly. So they have to be extra shit in case someone thinks that the reason they're being hands off is because they're ashamed and they have a responsibility for it.



Yeah, that makes twisted horrible sense to me,


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Their deep rage at him must be immense,



Chimps have empathy, and rely on violence and intimidation as a means of control.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 15, 2021)

The origin of modern policing was to control large groups of people. Either the new working class in cities, slaves in US or colonial populations. People who could potentially be threat to "order" as seen by ruling classes.

People who are "unruly".

The vigils organised across country come into that category.  The police on Clapham Common behaved as police have against other groups in the past. Its what they are for. 

No surprise the Tories are trying to give police more powers against protest today.


----------



## editor (Mar 15, 2021)

Utter filth


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Utter filth
> 
> View attachment 258806


Ah, they just can't resist reaching for the playbook. So now, in Sarah Vine's sickening world, any woman who speaks out is just another Millie Tant clone. Blech.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Ah, they just can't resist reaching for the playbook. So now, in Sarah Vine's sickening world, any woman who speaks out is just another Millie Tant clone. Blech.


She's a useful idiot


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 15, 2021)

Statement from Lambeth Labour women Cllrs:


> We are sad and angry that the vigil on Clapham Common that was planned for tonight is now not able to take place. Lambeth Council officers and the local Lambeth Police have been hugely supportive and we want to thank them for working collaboratively with the vigil’s organisers to try and ensure this important event would be safe and secure.
> 
> Unfortunately, without the cooperation of Scotland Yard it would not have been possible to properly police the gathering to guarantee it would be Covid-safe and there is uncertainty whether participants would receive a £200 fine.











						Lambeth Labour women councillors statement - Lambeth Labour
					

Like many women, Lambeth Labour women councillors have been shocked, saddened and horrified by the murder of a young woman who was kidnapped whilst walking home on our streets. We are sad and angry that the vigil on Clapham Common that was planned for tonight is now not able to take place...




					www.lambeth-labour.org.uk
				




So it was Cressida Dick who tried to stop the vigil .


----------



## Argonia (Mar 15, 2021)

Wasn't Cressida Dick responsible for Jean Charles de Menezes? How did she survive that one?


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 15, 2021)

Argonia said:


> Wasn't Cressida Dick responsible for Jean Charles de Menezes? How did she survive that one?


Not only that but she was made a Dame by Theresa May


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 15, 2021)

Calls for Dick to stand down have made her "more determined than ever" to lead the Met.

Which is the height of arrogance. Which is probably how you get a job like hers.

This is what they do. This is what they are for. Fuck. The. Police.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 15, 2021)

Evening Standard (London newspaper) says today says the two page report by Met on what happened at Clapham was "defensive and defiant" that it blamed " elements of the crowd.. because they turned hostile"

So it was fault of some of those women who attended according to Met.

No wonder Khan wasn't happy with explanation he got from Cressida Dick.









						Anger at Met Police’s two page snub on vigil for Sarah Everard
					

Defiant response over rough police tactics as Cressida Dick fights for job




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Statement from Lambeth Labour women Cllrs:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yes, i thought (as i said above) that this must have come from a very senior officer. she has to go.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 15, 2021)

The narrative is sadly successfully being turned against the women who were assaulted at the vigil, either by saying they "broke the law" or that they've detracted from the death of Sarah Everard 
And of course the old "left wing troublemakers/agitators/anarchists/police fighters" tropes


----------



## Mumbles274 (Mar 15, 2021)

Apparently conspiracy fuckers are saying Sarah Everard's murder is fake. Is there any limits to the depth these scum will go?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

ddraig said:


> The narrative is sadly successfully being turned against the women who were assaulted at the vigil, either by saying they "broke the law" or that they've detracted from the death of Sarah Everard
> And of course the old "left wing troublemakers/agitators/anarchists/police fighters" tropes


when i spoke to my mother on mother's day her horror at the murder of sarah everard and her disgust at the cops' actions dominated the phone call. i very much doubt if she's alone. there'll be a huge number of very fucked off women out there who may not have said anything but are nonetheless very angry. and i doubt their rage will swiftly subside.


----------



## souljacker (Mar 15, 2021)

Mumbles274 said:


> Apparently conspiracy fuckers are saying Sarah Everard's murder is fake. Is there any limits to the depth these scum will go?




Everything is fake to these clowns. Everyone is a crisis actor.


----------



## Athos (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Imagine if every woman in the land did, this for a while at least.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Insofar as it was an open challenge to authority (of the MPS) it's pretty much a textbook example of defiance.  I don't see that as a pejorative label, though!


----------



## killer b (Mar 15, 2021)

ddraig said:


> The narrative is sadly successfully being turned against the women who were assaulted at the vigil, either by saying they "broke the law" or that they've detracted from the death of Sarah Everard
> And of course the old "left wing troublemakers/agitators/anarchists/police fighters" tropes


How are you assessing success here?


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 15, 2021)

Athos said:


> Insofar as it was an open challenge to authority (of the MPS) it's pretty much a textbook example of defiance.  I don't see that as a pejorative label, though!


I personally have found it tends to come with a bit of a nasty undertone, not sure if it's a recent shift or what. Ime it tends to be used as a fallback from descriptors like "angry" and "aggressive" when people realise they're not going to get away with describing a woman like that. No one "on my side" has ever described me as defiant but a lot of people I've been up against have done


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 15, 2021)

Priti Patel: re Sarah Everard tributes: "On Friday, my views were known + they were based on the fact that people who wanted to pay tribute, obviously within the locality, bearing in mind we are in a pandemic, many people laying flowers is absolutely the right thing to do.."

😂


----------



## Athos (Mar 15, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I personally have found it tends to come with a bit of a nasty undertone, not sure if it's a recent shift or what. Ime it tends to be used as a fallback from descriptors like "angry" and "aggressive" when people realise they're not going to get away with describing a woman like that. No one "on my side" has ever described me as defiant but a lot of people I've been up against have done



I haven't heard it used that way, but happy to accept that you have. Here, though, it seems both linguistically apt, and something of which to be proud.


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Mar 15, 2021)

Woman:  "This is the language I heard, and this is how it made me feel"
Man: "No, this is how you should have felt"

On this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I personally have found it tends to come with a bit of a nasty undertone, not sure if it's a recent shift or what. Ime it tends to be used as a fallback from descriptors like "angry" and "aggressive" when people realise they're not going to get away with describing a woman like that. No one "on my side" has ever described me as defiant but a lot of people I've been up against have done


imo defiance is when you've been whacked in the face and you lock eyes again with your enemy. it's where you've been attacked but refuse to back down. so i see it as a positive but it's not the first quality which springs to mind when considering the grief and solidarity and (fwoabw) dignity which seem to me the hallmarks of the vigil the other night. the demo the next day, round westminster, that was defiant.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 15, 2021)

Re: Saturday night  -  I've already had someone I know & respect say something like - 'the vigil was fine, but it was hijacked at the end by the usual types... '

I'll admit I wasn't there between 6 & 7pm, & I missed the actual vigil, I've seen the photos of the vigil, people standing still with lights, but I don't know exactly what happened after that ended & 7pm when I arrived and everything had changed.

But I can't believe it was anything worse than, essentially, women shouting, & it seems very unlikely it was going to lead to violence, public disorder, or fear in the local area.

And yet there were 13 vanloads of police, 4 of them TSG (is this basically 'riot squad' in laymans terms or have I got that wrong?) to suppress it.

So just why are men* *so* afraid of women's voices?

*'men' here being the police in the sense of being an overwhelmingly male institution, not 'men in general' or 'men that I know'
Pull the phrase apart if you like, I'm not even sure what I mean by it, but it's been nagging me all day...


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 15, 2021)

Dignity is a fine word. The Zapatista women made a big point about being:

*Las mujeres con la dignidad rebelde*

which translates roughly to 'the women with rebellious dignity'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

it seems one woman was flashed at after leaving the vigil but the police refused to help her Officers 'failed to help' woman allegedly flashed at after Sarah Everard vigil


----------



## girasol (Mar 15, 2021)

If women started cutting off the penises of flashers, surely that would be ok?  After all it would have been the man's fault for taking it out...  (tongue in cheek, but lemme tell you, this is the sort of thing that goes through my mind when I hear of men intimidating women with their knobs).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 15, 2021)

Ms Ordinary said:


> TSG (is this basically 'riot squad' in laymans terms or have I got that wrong?)



yes.

they used to be the 'special patrol group' but it got re-branded after a few 'incidents' including the death of blair peach


----------



## teqniq (Mar 15, 2021)

Fucking hell, when do they ever learn?  This reminds me of the case of the two girls who were murdered and officers shared pics via WhatsApp. They still haven't prosecuted anyone for that either.









						Met officer involved in Sarah Everard search referred to IOPC for sharing ‘inappropriate graphic’
					

It did not contain images of Ms Everard or any material obtained from or related to investigation, force says




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 15, 2021)

TSG are somewhere about when a large group of people gather.
Nothing unusual in them being around.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 15, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> TSG are somewhere about when a large group of people gather.
> Nothing unusual in them being around.


It's not their _presence _that's the issue, it's their _actions_. Whatever they're called.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 15, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> TSG are somewhere about when a large group of people gather.
> Nothing unusual in them being around.



You make them sound like they're just a bunch of coppers there to keep a bit of order, they're scum. Shouldn't have even been deployed on Saturday.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 15, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> You make them sound like they're just a bunch of coppers there to keep a bit of order, they're scum. Shouldn't have even been deployed on Saturday.


Then your assumption of how I make them sound is incorrect.
Been in the wrong place at the wrong time myself with them and their German Shepherds.

Hope that's clear


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Mar 15, 2021)

To be honest, if I saw those vans parked in central London on a Saturday in summer when those anti-lockdown marches were happening every week, I'd not have thought much of it.  I am fairly used to seeing vans full of police on standby near protests.

But it really spooked me, having seen what was happening around the bandstand, & seeing them all stood there empty except for the drivers.


----------



## stethoscope (Mar 15, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Then your assumption of how I make them sound is incorrect.
> Been in the wrong place at the wrong time myself with them and their German Shepherds.
> 
> Hope that's clear



Fair enough. Yes, had some run-ins!


----------



## Athos (Mar 15, 2021)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Woman:  "This is the language I heard, and this is how it made me feel"
> Man: "No, this is how you should have felt"
> 
> On this thread.



Very droll.  But that's not what happened.

Like it or not, yesterday's action was pretty much the dictionary definition of the word 'defiance'.

That word makes some people feel one way, and me feel another.  But, telling someone you feel differently about something isn't telling someone how they should have felt.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 15, 2021)

I've been looking at what Sisters Uncut have been saying. After Reclaim the Streets did not get anywhere with the Met it was left to group like Sisters Uncut to pick up the baton. They have been in forefront of the demo at Parliament Square. I'm not going to criticise Reclaim the Streets. Two local Labour Cllrs were part of it. Labour Party aren't keen on being seen to go against police. So its left to "far" left to go forward.

Following up on Ms Ordinary saying its a male dominated institution Sisters Uncut argue its institutionally violent against women. This article from few years back they link to in their response shows police officers are less likely to be done for violence against women.









						Met Police ‘let hundreds of officers accused of sex attacks escape sanction’
					

Exclusive: Figures obtained by The Independent show only one in every 18 members of the Met accused of sexual assault are subject to formal action




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Given what is coming out over Everard case its looks like this should also mean a hard look at the Met itself.

Sisters Uncut: Our Response to Boris’ Statement: No More Police Powers


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## Orang Utan (Mar 15, 2021)

Athos said:


> Very droll.  But that's not what happened.
> 
> Like it or not, yesterday's action was pretty much the dictionary definition of the word 'defiance'.
> 
> That word makes some people feel one way, and me feel another.  But, telling someone you feel differently about something isn't telling someone how they should have felt.


You don’t always have to prove how right you are though. You share that with PM. It’s almost pathological


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 15, 2021)

Met officer involved in Sarah Everard search referred to IOPC for sharing ‘inappropriate graphic’
					

It did not contain images of Ms Everard or any material obtained from or related to investigation, force says




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 15, 2021)

.


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## Treacle Toes (Mar 15, 2021)

PC guarding site where Sarah's body was found 'sent vile WhatsApp about death'
					

A PC has been taken off front-line duties after 'sending a WhatsApp about Sarah Everard's death' while guarding the site where her body was found.




					www.kentonline.co.uk


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## Athos (Mar 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> You don’t always have to prove how right you are though. You share that with PM. It’s almost pathological



That's probably a fair criticism. Point taken.


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 15, 2021)

*"All cops are bastards" - Priti Patel*

It was the ACAB sign wot dunnit.









						Priti Patel spoke to Met chief before Sarah Everard vigil broken up
					

Home secretary agrees vigil was ‘hijacked’ by protesters and that undermining police would fail victims




					www.theguardian.com
				






> The home secretary hinted she had some sympathy with the police’s view that the vigil had been hijacked, in further signs that the Home Office is prepared to protect Dick.
> 
> “I’m shocked at the way in which Saturday night’s vigil was policed, the situation demanded sensitivity and compassion, something which was evidently lacking,” she said. “But I’m also shocked that what started as a peaceful and important vigil turned into a protest with photographs showing ‘ACAB’ signs, which stands for ‘All Cops Are Bastards’.
> 
> “I’m concerned that a young woman’s [alleged] murder could be hijacked by those who would seek to defund the police and destabilise our society, making it even harder for women to come forward and report assaults.”


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## Orang Utan (Mar 15, 2021)

So their answer to this was to assault women and ignore women reporting assault on that very night


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Athos said:


> Very droll.  But that's not what happened.
> 
> Like it or not, yesterday's action was pretty much the dictionary definition of the word 'defiance'.
> 
> That word makes some people feel one way, and me feel another.  But, telling someone you feel differently about something isn't telling someone how they should have felt.




I’m too tired to get into this tonight.

But I will say that being told that my decision to go to Clapham on Saturday, something that was not illegal and felt deeply important to me, was _defiant_ felt like being scolded. It felt patronisig. It felt like the people saying it (still saying it on the radio today) have misunderstood what the vigil was about.

I wasnt being defiant. I didn’t go to make a point about my right to gather, or to stand up to the authorities, or to push back against anything. I went because I felt compelled to stand alongside other women, in public, to share grief and to draw strength.

The defiance was the refusal to disperse once the police moved in. It was defiant to gather outside New Scotland Yard last night, and to gather outside Parliament today. Neither of those things would have happened if the vigil had been allowed to find it’s own natural end. And I’m proud of that defiance. We are refusing to be cowed.

I once responded directly (I called him out, I responded in a way he didn’t expect... I “answered back” if you like) to a policeman who made what I felt was an inappropriate comment to me. When i called him out he then said, to my face, “you’re being very uppity”. I reported him. No one rang me back. Being called “defiant” in this instance feels exactly the same as being called ”uppity” did then.

It isn’t defiant to respond to inappropriate words and behaviour. It is simply a response.

Defiant children are scolded for answering back.

I am not a a defiant child answering back, I am a woman responding to a peak event in a culture that doesn’t adequately protect women from male violence.

If a bloke says or does something aggressive or  transmissive to another bloke, would you consider it “defiance” when he deflects that aggression, calls it out?

Part of the definition of defiance is disobedience. What was I supposed to be obeying? How was I being disobedient?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 15, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> So their answer to this was to assault women and ignore women reporting assault on that very night


You're forgetting that some people were holding up signs with letters on them. A clear incitement to violence if ever I saw one.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 15, 2021)

Didnt really do much to dispell the rumour that all coppers are alleged to be bastards, did they.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Part of the definition of defiance is disobedience. What was I supposed to be obeying? How was I being disobedient?



i can't speak for what anyone else might or might not have meant, but i've just looked it up in my dictionary (my ILEA primary school leaving gift from 1981) includes 'bold resistance' as one of the definitions of 'defiance'

how about settling for that instead?


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Actually Athos this has really annoyed me.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and allow that there may have been some misunderstanding going on: maybe you were talking about the protests while I was talking going to the vigil.

But also, I must tell you that you telling me I didnt really know what I was talking about has really fucking annoyed me.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i can't speak for what anyone else might or might not have meant, but i've just looked it up in my dictionary (my ILEA primary school leaving gift from 1981) includes 'bold resistance' as one of the definitions of 'defiance'
> 
> how about settling for that instead?



And now I’m being told “here’s a nice little compromise for you”
Do I get a pat on the head with this?


I wasn’t being resistant, was I, ffs.

What was I resisting?

I was quietly standing alongside other women who felt the same way.

I was on open land, not breaking any laws. What was I resisting?


Is it “bold” for me to make up my own mind and act on my own cognisance?

Is it “resistance” to want to stand alongside other women when we are experiencing something raw together? Something which - increasingly demonstrably - is beyond men’s capacity to really understand?


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## Artaxerxes (Mar 15, 2021)

The terror continues after lockdown


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

That seems so weird.


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## Puddy_Tat (Mar 15, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Is it “resistance” to want to stand alongside other women when we are experiencing something raw together? Something which - increasingly demonstrably - is beyond men’s capacity to really understand?



if the system wants women to keep quiet and put up with all this shit, then simply standing up and being (figuratively speaking) counted is arguably resisting that, and i see that as a positive and worthwhile thing, and i was attempting (quite possibly not very well) to express that, not intending to criticise you (or any of the other people who turned out) in any way at all.  

i'm sorry if i haven't managed it.  would it be more constructive to the thread for me to go back and edit out?


----------



## kittyP (Mar 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The terror continues after lockdown




Oh FFS


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 15, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> if the system wants women to keep quiet and put up with all this shit, then simply standing up and being (figuratively speaking) counted is arguably resisting that, and i see that as a positive and worthwhile thing, and i was attempting (quite possibly not very well) to express that, not intending to criticise you (or any of the other people who turned out) in any way at all.
> 
> i'm sorry if i haven't managed it.  would it be more constructive to the thread for me to go back and edit out?





There’s a danger that we’re just going to get into semantics here.



How can I resist the house I’m living inside?



Look, I don’t want men to think “Oops, I put my foot in it” and edit what they say.

I want men to _think_ about what they’re saying, how it impacts on us, how the subtle meaning upholds the status quo, stenghtens it, progresses it.

We’re not going to dismantle the patriarchy by just acting different. We - you, me us - we need to _be_ different,



I may be the only person - only women - who didnt like being told attending the vigil was “defiant”. I just made a post about how that landed for me.

But I think maybe this exchange indicates thatt men and women perceive /experience the patriarchy quite differently.

Dunno. I’m so tired, I shouldn’t be posting really. 



No, don’t edit it Puddy_Tat .

I don’t feel criticised by your post, but it did feel patronising even though I know you didn’t mean it like that.


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## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

ddraig said:


> The narrative is sadly successfully being turned against the women who were assaulted at the vigil, either by saying they "broke the law" or that they've detracted from the death of Sarah Everard
> And of course the old "left wing troublemakers/agitators/anarchists/police fighters" tropes




This has been really pissing me off today. Listening to Radio London, the fallacy of women agitating and the police responding was being enlarged all day. I know it’s par for the course, but this was a vigil for a murdered women, with the suspect being a fucking copper. Shameless, and shameful.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 16, 2021)

I did go to be defiant
I went because it was important for me to stand with other women at the end of a difficult week
I went support sisters uncut who stood their ground and took on the mantle after reclaim these streets stood down
I went to support all our rights to be out at night with censor and judgement

I don't know the deceased woman, but I know she had a right to out at night and I was standing with her in that way
I wasnt sad, I was angry
And I was even angrier when the police were heavy handed and mishandled things so badly
Women shouting at police who interrupted an emotional gathering  were no threat to public order and did not need to be treated as a threat.  Coppers running about and shoving people as if there was imminent danger showed their true colours
Women calling that out was right
We don't have to stay demure and downcast  to have legitimacy


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## ash (Mar 16, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I did go to be defiant
> I went because it was important for me to stand with other women at the end of a difficult week
> I went support sisters uncut who stood their ground and took on the mantle after reclaim these streets stood down
> I went to support all our rights to be out at night with censor and judgement
> ...



I totally agree.
We were very close to the bandstand only 2 or 3 rows of people in front of us. 
Reflecting back and looking at the footage I’m sure at least one woman was removed whilst we were there. After the cops marched  in on mass  I saw about 6 coppers moving away from the bandstand and said to E - I think they’re removing  someone.
There was absolutely no aggro then apart from arrest your own, no justice no peace, fuck the police- which was all very tame. We were very  close and I didn’t hear anyone tell female officers ‘ it should have been them’ as has been reported.


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 16, 2021)

ash said:


> I totally agree.
> We were very close to the bandstand only 2 or 3 rows of people in front of us.
> Reflecting back and looking at the footage I’m sure at least one woman was removed whilst we were there. After the cops marched  in on mass  I saw about 6 coppers moving away from the bandstand and said to E - I think they’re removing  someone.
> There was absolutely no aggro then apart from arrest your own, no justice no peace, fuck the police- which was all very tame. We were very  close and I didn’t hear anyone tell female officers ‘ it should have been them’ as has been reported.


I followed someone being  arrested because I wanted to observe and its rough when 10 police surround you and drag you away
People shouted shame, pigs,  scum....I didn't hear anyone shout about rape at that time or during another arrest when the  police were pushing and kicking and shouting as well

There was a lot of shouting and anger from the crowd
I imagine not all the police thought it was the right strategy and it was likely quite shameful to hear cries of 'shame'  'arrest your own'
The police _were_ under a type of psychic attack because there was an entire crowd United in condemning them loudly and silently with good reason

Part of the reason we were there was because of police errors, aggression, violence,  misdemeanor...no wonder they couldn't let it pass without disruption


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## ash (Mar 16, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I followed someone being  arrested because I wanted to observe and its rough when 10 police surround you and drag you away
> People shouted shame, pigs,  scum....I didn't hear anyone shout about rape at that time or during another arrest when the  police were pushing and kicking and shouting as well
> 
> There was a lot of shouting and anger from the crowd
> ...



I’m not a habitual protester, I’ve been on the Iraq March, poll tax, several Remain marches and that’s it and I’m sure a lot of the crowd were the same. It was so obvious that the police just had to wait and it would have dispersed?!?!


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## Miss-Shelf (Mar 16, 2021)

ash said:


> I’m not a habitual protester, I’ve been on the Iraq March, poll tax, several Remain marches and that’s it and I’m sure a lot of the crowd were the same. It was so obvious that the police just had to wait and it would have dispersed?!?!


I also think that it was a crowd who were unsure what they wanted to do:   defend the bandstand?   Resist the police?  Stay?  Go? 

There hadn't been time for  a plan beyond turn up despite Met police orders

Pretty sure the energy and spectacle and drama  created by the police kept people there plus solidarity with people being arrested.  It was difficult not to get caught up in the adrenaline provoked by the police 

When someone else- a man? was arrested and marched in formation to a van in windmill drive,   the police acted like they were under attack all in formation keeping body contact alternately kicking at people in the way, politely asking people to move or shouting at people to move ....that was partly because people, mainly men were saying dont let them pass but also cos press were running backwards in front of them to get a shot...I heard one police shout politely "press can you move back please"   that felt a bit more like men had materialised to have a ruck but it was in response to police not started by them


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## ash (Mar 16, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I also think that it was a crowd who were unsure what they wanted to do:   defend the bandstand?   Resist the police?  Stay?  Go?
> 
> There hadn't been time for  a plan beyond turn up despite Met police orders
> 
> Pretty sure the energy and spectacle and drama  created by the police kept people there plus solidarity with people being arrested


Definitely -we left before it fully kicked off but I would have stayed longer if it had and 16 year old daughter would definitely have


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## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig, I'm sorry that I upset you.  That wasn't my intention.

I think it's a misunderstanding; that we're talking post each other.  I'm certainly not saying you should or shouldn't feel a particular way.

Ultimately, it comes down to the meaning of the word 'defiant', which I see as an open challenge to authority. It strikes me that the MPS tried to assert authority (wrongly) to prevent women attending the vigil, but that women openly refused to be cowed.  Whilst (for some at least) the purpose of attending wasn't to resist, it still represents a rejection of the authority to stop them.

I think that's a good thing, but I appreciate that you feel differently about the word, or what happened.

That we think/feel differently isn't me trying to say you're wrong, or that you don't know what you're talking about.  But I'm sorry if anything I said came across like that.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Ultimately, it comes down to the meaning of the word 'defiant', which I see as an open challenge to authority. It strikes me that the MPS tried to assert authority (wrongly) to prevent women attending the vigil, but that women openly refused to be cowed.  Whilst (for some at least) the purpose of attending wasn't to resist, it still represents a rejection of the authority to stop them.


It's not about what the word literally means. I also don't think it's bad to be "angry".


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> It's not about what the word literally means. I also don't think it's bad to be "angry".



Absolutely.  It's more about the fact that the word produces a different reaction in different people.  I get how it makes her feel, and haven't argued with that.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Absolutely.  It's more about the fact that the word produces a different reaction in different people.  I get how it makes her feel, and haven't argued with that.


No it's not about 'reaction' either. It's about how it's used and who is using it.

ETA: the problem with describing this issue as the 'reaction' is that it makes out like the person it's being used about, in this case woman, are the active problem. It's not, it's the people using the word and why they use it.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> No it's not about 'reaction' either. It's about how it's used and who is using it.
> 
> ETA: the problem with describing this issue as the 'reaction' is that it makes out like the person it's being used about, in this case woman, are the active problem. It's not, it's the people using the word and why they use it.



In this case it's being used by someone on the same side (me), in an explicitly positive way.

And I don't think it's necessarily problematic for people to think/feel differently about something (though, of course, it can be).

Sheila and I interpret the term differently on an intellectual level, and it has different underlying connotations for each of us (and we can differ about that without saying the other is wrong).

I suppose the question is what we do with that?  We can make it a point of dispute (between two people on broadly the same 'side'), or we can listen to each other and use that to inform how we interpret others' use of the word in future, and how we use it ourselves.

I'll certainly think twice about saying a woman has behaved defiantly, even when her conduct meets my understanding of the dictionary definition, and notwithstanding I think that defiance is positive.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Mar 16, 2021)

The "defiant" word: I didn't get SheilaNaGig's point until I read her post out aloud to Mrs SP - I was going to ask her what she thought the issue was, but just hearing myself voice the words made the penny drop.  I wasn't at the vigil and I wouldn't speak for anyone else, but it is striking how the word "vigil" (not defiant at all) has morphed into "protest" (potentially defiant) to "riot" (definitely defiant).  These words are important because their appropriation and (mis)use is all part of the weaponry of the permanent revolution that the (extreme?) right is pushing.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Struwwelpeter said:


> The "defiant" word: I didn't get SheilaNaGig's point until I read her post out aloud to Mrs SP - I was going to ask her what she thought the issue was, but just hearing myself voice the words made the penny drop.  I wasn't at the vigil and I wouldn't speak for anyone else, but it is striking how the word "vigil" (not defiant at all) has morphed into "protest" (potentially defiant) to "riot" (definitely defiant).  These words are important because their appropriation and (mis)use is all part of the weaponry of the permanent revolution that the (extreme?) right is pushing.



The trouble with that is that it gives the police too easy a time; they did purport to use their authority to prevent a vigil (wrongly in my opinion).


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

So it only needs a couple of placards saying ACAB or the like to let the police steam in because "extremists have hijacked a protest". These new laws of Patel's are going to go wonderfully


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> The trouble with that is that it gives the police too easy a time; they did purport to use their authority to prevent a vigil (wrongly in my opinion).


Now it's me not getting it.  How is criticisng the aggressive policing of a (non-defiant) vigil giving the police an easy time?
(edited to make sense)


----------



## Poot (Mar 16, 2021)

Agh! Why is everything focusing on the victims and not the fucking perpetrators AGAIN? 

Yes i know why but I'm angry.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Struwwelpeter said:


> Now it's me not getting it.  How is criticisng the aggressive policing of a (non-defiant) vigil giving the police an easy time?
> (edited to make sense)



Because not recognising the defiance is not recognising their wrongful use of authority.  Its significant that simply attending a vigil was in defiance of the police.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Priti Patel maintains that the vigil was hijacked by politicos/outsiders. What everyone should have noticed is that the police banned the vigil and the organisers backed down, told people to stay at home, provided no stewards. Because they understandably didn't want to be landed with huge fines. That meant that officially the vigil no longer existed. So although most people attending went there for a peaceful vigil some outsiders did turn up. They were mainly the police and by their actions they changed the mood of the event and it became more of a protest. It was still non-violent. The only violence came from the police. It was all their fault, from Cressida Dick at the top to the lowest copper at the bottom. Wouldn't it be a nice change if opposition MP's in parliament felt able to speak the simple truth on matters like this?


----------



## Sue (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos, maybe shutting up and listening would be an idea?


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Sue said:


> Athos, maybe shutting up and listening would be an idea?


I am listening.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So it only needs a couple of placards saying ACAB or the like to let the police steam in because "extremists have hijacked a protest". These new laws of Patel's are going to go wonderfully


There used to be a feminist slogan 'All Men Are Potential Rapists', which upset some blokes but reflected the reality of how women approach the world, when going out at night, for example. Maybe ACAB should be replaced by ACAPB to defuse such situations? (All Coppers Are Potential Bastards)


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2021)

kittyP said:


> Oh FFS


Policing by kneejerk. As opposed to policing by jerk, which is largely self-evident.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The terror continues after lockdown



No doubt will start picking people up with drugs, or who look like they might have drugs, or look suspicious in some way.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> No doubt will start picking people up with drugs, or who look like they might have drugs, or look suspicious in some way.


Or they might as so many of their colleagues have assault and humiliate clubbers and pubbers


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The terror continues after lockdown



Decent door staff will help with that not happening.


----------



## Poot (Mar 16, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Decent door staff will help with that not happening.


Not sexually assaulting women will help that not happening.


----------



## Brainaddict (Mar 16, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The terror continues after lockdown



Has there ever been a more tone deaf policy response?

Even if it were a good thing to have plains clothes cops in bars - and it isn't, it is not good at all - does anyone really believe they have the resources to do this in any significant way? As it is they are often stretched on Friday and Saturday nights dealing with alcohol-fueled violence. So even if it were a good idea (IT'S NOT) it would be tokenistic. Just so shit all round.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 16, 2021)

Poot said:


> Not sexually assaulting women will help that not happening.


Yes, that's a given.
But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
That's the point I am making.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes, that's a given.
> But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
> That's the point I am making.


Variously reported as undercover or plain clothes cops according to the radio just now. I don't think they will be deployed as you suggest. And I believe that they will cause problems wherever they're deployed.


----------



## Poot (Mar 16, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes, that's a given.
> But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
> That's the point I am making.


It doesn't seem to be a given. We talk about protecting women but we should be talking about preventing men.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 16, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes, that's a given.
> But in a properly licensed, managed and secured premises I'd hazard a guess (note it's a guess) is that the likelihood of needing plain clothes plod is less.
> That's the point I am making.


It's the wrong point.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Mar 16, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Decent door staff will help with that not happening.




Lol.  "Decent" door staff.  I find they type of person that bouncering attracts are worse than coppers.


----------



## Espresso (Mar 16, 2021)

Whoever thought of this as a policy and whoever agreed to it all want sacking. 

Because it's not like it won't occur to men who do grope to use it.  "I saw that man over there touch you as he passed, come over here with me. I'm one of those undercover police officers you've read about. You'll be fine with me."


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

It's so out-of-touch.  I know they want to be seen to be doing something, but more cops in clubs is something I don't recall seeing any woman (or, for that matter, anyone) ever call for!  There's so many things they could do to make a difference that show how ridiculous this token gesture really is.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Because not recognising the defiance is not recognising their wrongful use of authority.  Its significant that simply attending a vigil was in defiance of the police.




That’s the point.

Attending a vigil held to honour a woman snatched off the street and murdered (maybe by a policeman) should not be interpreted as defiant.

That it is considered defiant to do so is a problem.

I therefore take issue with the word being applied to my choice to attend the vigil.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That’s the point.
> 
> Attending a vigil held to honour a woman snatched off the street and murdered (maybe by a policeman) should not be interpreted as defiant.
> 
> ...




However, I am proud of our pure bold collective defiance against the police in the circumstances that played out.

And thank you to ash and Miss-Shelf for being actively present and witnessing events as they developed.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That it is considered defiant to do so is a problem.



Agreed. Please don't think that, by pointing out that people attending is an open challenge to the police's purported authority to prevent the vigil, I'm suggesting for one moment that such a use of authority is legitimate.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> In this case it's being used by someone on the same side (me), in an explicitly positive way.
> 
> And I don't think it's necessarily problematic for people to think/feel differently about something (though, of course, it can be).
> 
> ...



I acknowledge and accept your apology.

But again, as I said earlier to Puddy_Tat , I don’t want men to have to weasel their words thoughts or feelings. Instead I want better comprehension of the underlying issues.

Men editing their thoughts isn’t a solution. Trying to second guess what might land badly with women isn’t the way out of this problem. 

Your last sentence here is saying that even if you think you’re right, you’ll behave as if she’s right. How is that going to work out in the long run? How does that build solidarity, trust, respect?


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Has there ever been a more tone deaf policy response?


i'm trying to think of one and coming up blank. This as a response to the murder of Sarah Everard is just mind bogglingly incredible in its wrongness.
What they need to do is talk about how come the police he worked with for years and years were oblivious to there being anything at all the matter with his attitude to women.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Agreed. Please don't think that, by pointing out that people attending is an open challenge to the police's purported authority to prevent the vigil, I'm suggesting for one moment that such a use of authority is legitimate.




I know you don’t.

That’s not what I’m taking from your posts.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

I think I’m going to leave this discussion about the word “defiance” where it stands. I keep saying the same thing over and over, and it’s tiresome but also feels rather pointless now. It feels like one of those little whirlwinds of trash that you see in the corner of the high street : kinda interesting in its way, but the rest of the world is happening at my shoulder.

While it may be indicative or symptomatic of other things, there are larger issues to be discussed right now.




But Athos muscovyduck and others: I do appreciate your engagement.


----------



## Santino (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos - perhaps don't try to get in the last word on this subject.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Your last sentence here is saying that even if you think you’re right, you’ll behave as if she’s right. How is that going to work out in the long run? How does that build solidarity, trust, respect?



No, that's not what I'm saying. Just that I'd be mindful of the fact that others feel differently.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I think I’m going to leave this discussion about the word “defiance” where it stands. I keep saying the same thing over and over, and it’s tiresome but also feels rather pointless now. It feels like one of those little whirlwinds of trash that you see in the corner of the high street : kinda interesting in its way, but the rest of the world is happening at my shoulder.
> 
> While it may be indicative or symptomatic of other things, there are larger issues to be discussed right now.
> 
> ...



No problem. More than happy not to pursue this aspect.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 16, 2021)

Announcing you are going to deploy undercover cops as a response to this at the very time you are bringing in a law allowing undercover cops to act with complete impunity is possibly the worst idea I have ever seen. Jesus we're in a shitty place in this country. Fucking hell.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Announcing you are going to deploy undercover cops as a response to this at the very time you are bringing in a law allowing undercover cops to act with complete impunity is possibly the worst idea I have ever seen. Jesus we're in a shitty place in this country. Fucking hell.



Whilst it's a shit idea, I'm not sure anyone's proposing using undercover officers (pain clothed is a different thing), such that they wouldn't have any of the protections contained in the current bill.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Whilst it's a shit idea, I'm not sure anyone's proposing using undercover officers (pain clothed is a different thing), such that they wouldn't have any of the protections contained in the current bill.


How would you know what anyone is proposing in secret, behind closed doors, with impunity? Or do I mean immunity? Or both?


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> How would you know what anyone is proposing in secret, behind closed doors, with impunity?



I don't. I specifically said "I'm not sure".  But I've not seen anything to suggest that is what's proposed.  If be interested to know if anyone has a reliable source for the idea that what's being proposed is the deployment of undercover (rather than plain clothed) cops.


----------



## Looby (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> I don't. I specifically said "I'm not sure".  But I've not seen anything to suggest that is what's proposed.  If be interested to know if anyone has a reliable source for the idea that what's being proposed is the deployment of undercover (rather than plain clothed) cops.


Plain clothed or undercover, it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me. I don’t and won’t trust them and won’t feel safer with them lurking around clubs and bars.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> I don't. I specifically said "I'm not sure".  But I've not seen anything to suggest that is what's proposed.  If be interested to know if anyone has a reliable source for the idea that what's being proposed is the deployment of undercover (rather than plain clothed) cops.


I used the word 'you' as in 'one'. How would one know? How would one ever obtain a reliable source for any such secret deployments?


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Looby said:


> Plain clothed or undercover, it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me. I don’t and won’t trust them and won’t feel safer with them lurking around clubs and bars.



I get that. And I agree it's a shit idea. But the distinction is significant to the suggestion that they'd have immunity should the bill be passed.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I used the word 'you' as in 'one'. How would one know? How would one ever obtain a reliable source for any such secret deployments?



I'm sorry, I don't understand you?


----------



## Looby (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> I get that. And I agree it's a shit idea. But the distinction is significant to the suggestion that they'd have immunity should the bill be passed.


Maybe but as I say, I don’t really care about the distinction. 
I’ve been following this thread closely but have switched off over the last few pages. I can’t be arsed with the nit picking and pedantry.


----------



## Plumdaff (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos said:


> Whilst it's a shit idea, I'm not sure anyone's proposing using undercover officers (pain clothed is a different thing), such that they wouldn't have any of the protections contained in the current bill.


Given what I've seen cops get away with in broad daylight while wearing uniforms this isn't remotely reassuring. Like any 'plain clothes' officers wouldn't be able to act with complete impunity against a woman dressed up and having had a few drinks. Who'd be believed? Fucking laughable.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Mar 16, 2021)

Apologies if this has already been said but plain clothes coppers in bars would have done nothing to protect Sarah Everard. It wasn't late, she hadn't been out drinking, she wasn't "dressed provocatively" (yeah I know that's bullshit), she was on a main road. 

The usual "women need to do x, y and z to keep themselves safe" just does not apply in this case.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> Given what I've seen cops get away with in broad daylight while wearing uniforms this isn't remotely reassuring. Like any 'plain clothes' officers wouldn't be able to act with complete impunity against a women dressed up and having had a few drinks. Fucking laughable.



Of course they would. But that's not because they'd be undercover officers, or anything to do with the proposed law.


----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 16, 2021)

This thread is being ruined by men pontificating on minor details. A woman is dead ffs, have some respect


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

thought some of you might be interested by this free e-book from verson Verso, feminist city: claiming space in a man-made world


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> This thread is being ruined by men pontificating on minor details. A woman is dead ffs, have some respect


report the offending posts


----------



## PursuedByBears (Mar 16, 2021)

Athos please just step back from the thread and give it a rest eh?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Looby said:


> Maybe but as I say, I don’t really care about the distinction.
> I’ve been following this thread closely but have switched off over the last few pages. I can’t be arsed with the nit picking and pedantry.




I’m sorry for my part in that.


----------



## Athos (Mar 16, 2021)

PursuedByBears said:


> Athos please just step back from the thread and give it a rest eh?


Yeah, fair enough. I'll leave it (for a bit, at least).


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Couzens appeared at the old Bailey via video link this morning.

Plea and case management hearing set for 9 July 

Provisional date for case to be heard 25 October, expected to last 4 weeks. “Lots of evidences to be presented”.

No word about how he sustained his injuries.

No application for bail.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Weird how they’ve chosen a cheerful smiley picture for the front page.

ETA
I suppose it serves to remind us that you can’t fucking trust anyone.


----------



## Espresso (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Weird how they’ve chosen a cheerful smiley picture for the front page.
> 
> ETA
> I suppose it serves to remind us that you can’t fucking trust anyone.


You're right. When I saw that photo I thought what an ordinary sort of man he looked. That's exactly the point that's being made. How depressing is that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Weird how they’ve chosen a cheerful smiley picture for the front page.
> 
> ETA
> I suppose it serves to remind us that you can’t fucking trust anyone.





Espresso said:


> You're right. When I saw that photo I thought what an ordinary sort of man he looked. That's exactly the point that's being made. How depressing is that.


a quick search for pictures of him doesn't turn up a great range so it may just be they've decided to run with what they've got


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a quick search for pictures of him doesn't turn up a great range so it may just be they've decided to run with what they've got




Sky News didn’t need to put a picture of him on there at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Sky News didn’t need to put a picture of him on there at all.


there was some discussion of naming him earlier in the thread, where it was said that by naming him other women might come forwards. so by that rationale showing his picture might reach women he had attacked. however, there's much to be said for the new zealand precedent, where they refused to name or show pictures of the mosque gunman. what i found particularly abhorrent when i searched for pictures just now was the way some images had him and sarah everard side by side.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> thought some of you might be interested by this free e-book from verson Verso, feminist city: claiming space in a man-made world


Thanks for letting me know. Just downloaded it.


----------



## vanya (Mar 16, 2021)

Here's a charity which runs refuges for women fleeing to escape domestic violence. Just donated to it. 









						Home - Women's Aid
					

Women's Aid is a grassroots federation working together to provide life-saving services and build a future where domestic violence is not tolerated.




					www.womensaid.org.uk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 16, 2021)

Looby said:


> Plain clothed or undercover, it doesn’t make a lot of difference to me. I don’t and won’t trust them and won’t feel safer with them lurking around clubs and bars.



It's a stupid idea all around and I dare say some pathetic 'rebranding' of the use of more undercovers in bars and clubs anyway for other reasons.

Also...I mean, it's a fucking great idea isn't it?









						Met Police ‘let hundreds of officers accused of sex attacks escape sanction’
					

Exclusive: Figures obtained by The Independent show only one in every 18 members of the Met accused of sexual assault are subject to formal action




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there was some discussion of naming him earlier in the thread, where it was said that by naming him other women might come forwards. so by that rationale showing his picture might reach women he had attacked. however, there's much to be said for the new zealand precedent, where they refused to name or show pictures of the mosque gunman. what i found particularly abhorrent when i searched for pictures just now was the way some images had him and sarah everard side by side.


Do you mean separate pictures adjacent to each other ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Do you mean separate pictures adjacent to each other ?


Yes in one image


----------



## bimble (Mar 16, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> It's a stupid idea all around and I dare say some pathetic 'rebranding' of the use of more undercovers in bars and clubs anyway for other reasons.
> 
> Also...I mean, it's a fucking great idea isn't it?
> 
> ...


bloody hell the stats in that.  "the vast majority (of police accused of sexual violence) "faced no action". Not even paper action, or a talking to, how can that even be ?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 16, 2021)

bimble said:


> bloody hell the stats in that.  "the vast majority (of police accused of sexual violence) "faced no action". Not even paper action, or a talking to, how can that even be ?


Because they don't have to, because the general public believe the "few rotten apples" crap, because what are you going to do about it?? eh? eh?

e2a - and they look after their own


----------



## editor (Mar 17, 2021)

Council news Lambeth to hold one minute’s silence to remember Sarah Everard and other women affected by violence from men


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

so sir stephen house is something of a wanker Met deputy says he 'can't apologise' for officers over Sarah Everard vigil

says he can't apologise for officers' conduct at the vigil - they were it seems doing their duty as they saw it. it's my firm belief that they were doing their 'duty,' if that's what attacking women is, at someone else's behest, someone up the way at nsy. and that's why he won't apologise for it.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2021)

Apparently he's also unhappy with Sisters Uncut for sharing this:



so.......


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Apparently he's also unhappy with Sisters Uncut for sharing this:
> 
> 
> 
> so.......



It's always interesting when people get cross about other people sharing information.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 17, 2021)

He was trying to make out that sharing arrest advice proved that the vigil was actually a demonstration and not a vigil, I think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> He was trying to make out that sharing arrest advice proved that the vigil was actually a demonstration and not a vigil, I think.


Given the cops' attitude beforehand (and indeed on the day) it was good advice


----------



## bimble (Mar 17, 2021)

This total refusal to admit fault (let alone resign) seems to be endemic now with powerful public life people, I don’t think it used to be like that.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 17, 2021)

Surge in downloads of women’s safety apps following Sarah Everard death
					

App WalkSafe is No 1 in Apple app store and Hollie Guard has had more than 200,000 downloads




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Surge in downloads of women’s safety apps following Sarah Everard death
> 
> 
> App WalkSafe is No 1 in Apple app store and Hollie Guard has had more than 200,000 downloads
> ...


And what do you think about this?


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 17, 2021)

existentialist said:


> And what do you think about this?


It's a very sad state of affairs that it's needed.

What do you think ?


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so sir stephen house is something of a wanker Met deputy says he 'can't apologise' for officers over Sarah Everard vigil
> 
> says he can't apologise for officers' conduct at the vigil - they were it seems doing their duty as they saw it. it's my firm belief that they were doing their 'duty,' if that's what attacking women is, at someone else's behest, someone up the way at nsy. and that's why he won't apologise for it.



The justification the Met is using is that its intervening to protect people's health. That is that its actions on that night are for the public good

Read this few days ago. Argues that putting police in position of protecting peoples health is a worrying use of state power.


> No medical ethics committee would greenlight such tactics for use in a medical setting to force compliance with infectious diseases guidance











						Police Violence Does Not Protect Public Health
					

This weekend's crackdown on the Clapham vigil was justified on the basis it was defending public health – but police violence doesn't protect us from Covid-19, it undermines the whole pandemic response.




					tribunemag.co.uk
				




Its interesting article by a psychiatrist.

The defence by Met of their actions by using the protecting health line should be questioned.

The article argues that actions like this undermine confidence in public health strategies.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> He was trying to make out that sharing arrest advice proved that the vigil was actually a demonstration and not a vigil, I think.


That's cuntitude, then.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 17, 2021)

Met deputy says he 'can't apologise' for officers over Sarah Everard vigil
					

Sir Stephen House says officers were ‘doing their duty as they saw it’ and he will not second-guess them




					www.theguardian.com
				




Cressida Dick was invited to speak to London Assembly members of the Police and Crime committee but sent her deputy instead. She shows a real contempt those elected to represent us Londoners. 

She is quite happy talking to Priti Patel.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 17, 2021)

Looking at career of Cressida Dick OBE. Her main interest in "security". She went into anti terrorism and even the short period when she was not in the police she worked in Foreign Office on security issues. She has no interest in community policing. 

Hence the line coming out from Met accusing Sister Uncut of making it a demo. 

In the mind of Cop like Cressida Dick (and Priti Patel who she works closely with) groups like Sisters Uncut are possible threat to "order" Or in other words of Priti Patel out to destabilise society.


----------



## teqniq (Mar 17, 2021)

The person who presided over the murder of Jean Charles de Menezes is not to be trusted at all by ordinary people imo. She has however amply demonstrated her usefulness to the establishment.


----------



## Little Piranha (Mar 18, 2021)

Sisters Uncut have organised a public online meeting tonight to discuss the fact the police do not protect women, increasing their powers will not help us and to strategise on how to organise and resist. I thought some of you might be interested.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 18, 2021)

Latest from Sisters Uncut:



> At the moment there is a huge amount of discourse swirling around whether Metropolitan Police Commissioner Cressida Dick should resign over the police violence against women attending the Clapham vigil. This narrative is a distraction. Cressida Dick represents a particular type of authoritarian policing – which we can see most recently in the actions of the police under her orders this weekend and as far back as 2005, when she headed the operation which led to the fatal point-blank shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes – but if she steps down, someone else just like her will simply step in. Although her resignation is essential, we also have to challenge the police's violence which is deeply, institutionally entrenched.











						Extending Police Powers Cannot & Will Not End Male Violence
					

In the wake of Sarah Everard's death, women are asking for change. The government isn't listening.




					www.refinery29.com
				




I agree with this.


----------



## bimble (Mar 19, 2021)

"The family of Sarah Everard have heard that an initial postmortem examination has not established how she died, and further inquiries into the cause of her death are ongoing." 
what on earth did he do. 
It's not going to make the blindest bit of difference to anything but i'm going to not watch any entertainments based around the gruesome killing of women for the rest of this year. I like a bit of noir / detective stuff but had enough, not entertained anymore.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> "The family of Sarah Everard have heard that an initial postmortem examination has not established how she died, and further inquiries into the cause of her death are ongoing."
> what on earth did he do.
> It's not going to make the blindest bit of difference to anything but i'm going to not watch any entertainments based around the gruesome killing of women for the rest of this year. I like a bit of noir / detective stuff but had enough, not entertained anymore.


Hopefully this whole thing might usher us towards the death of that genre tbh


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> "The family of Sarah Everard have heard that an initial postmortem examination has not established how she died, and further inquiries into the cause of her death are ongoing."
> what on earth did he do.



I imagine he burnt her body trying to dispose of it. Hence the dental record thing.


----------



## bimble (Mar 19, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I imagine he burnt her body trying to dispose of it. Hence the dental record thing.


something along those lines, very possibly something he saw on a tv show.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 19, 2021)

FUCK. THIS. SHIT.


_A drunken off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.

PC Oliver Banfield, a probationary officer with West Midlands Police, grabbed Emma Homer on a dark street last July.


He used techniques taught during police training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock.

Miss Homer, 36, managed to flee from the scene as Banfield, who had been on a night out, branded her a “f ******** slag”.

A court heard the 25-year-old remains in his post with West Midlands Police despite admitting a charge of assault by beating._












						Off-duty police officer who attacked 'terrified' woman walking home spared jail
					

EXCLUSIVE: PC Oliver Banfield grabbed Emma Homer, 36, on a dark street and used techniques taught during his training to try to tackle the mum-of-two to the ground and put her in a headlock




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## existentialist (Mar 19, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> FUCK. THIS. SHIT.
> 
> 
> _A drunken off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.
> ...


Culture of impunity. On top of the sexism thing. Vile.

This would be a very good place for the country to start - sure, educate kids to treat women respectfully, etc., but FFS how are these "occasional rotten apples" able to be quietly dropped back into the barrel nearly every time??


----------



## xenon (Mar 19, 2021)

That is not a like by the way. It was meant to be an angry, I can’t do the others on my phone. What the fuck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

this made me angry









						Priti Patel wanted police to stop people gathering at Sarah Everard vigil
					

Exclusive: some police chiefs feel ‘hung out to dry’ as memo reveals home secretary’s enforcement call




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> FUCK. THIS. SHIT.
> 
> 
> _A drunken off-duty police officer who attacked a terrified woman as she walked home alone was allowed to walk free from court.
> ...


i wonder why it was thought appropriate to have a large picture of eh accompanying that story


----------



## kittyP (Mar 19, 2021)

For fuck sake


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Mar 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> something along those lines, very possibly something he saw on a tv show.


I was going to post something along the lines of 'or something he learnt during police training', but thought better of it, thought it might seem a bit glib in the current circumstances. Then this post from Rutita1 . Unbelievable.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Would this even have made the news a fortnight ago?


----------



## baldrick (Mar 19, 2021)

What the FUCK have I just read? 

He can't do community service among criminals - he IS a bloody criminal! That poor woman and her children.


----------



## keybored (Mar 19, 2021)

baldrick said:


> What the FUCK have I just read?
> 
> He can't do community service among criminals - he IS a bloody criminal! That poor woman and her children.


So they put him on a curfew instead. During a lockdown. That's some punishment.


----------



## Edie (Mar 19, 2021)

baldrick said:


> What the FUCK have I just read?
> 
> He can't do community service among criminals - he IS a bloody criminal! That poor woman and her children.


He’s not locked up for that?!  (Can’t bring myself to read it)


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Culture of impunity. On top of the sexism thing. Vile.
> 
> This would be a very good place for the country to start - sure, educate kids to treat women respectfully, etc., but FFS how are these "occasional rotten apples" able to be quietly dropped back into the barrel nearly every time??


If I did anything like this in a probationary period I'm sure I'd be out on my ear so I see no reason why this miserable creature shouldn't have been handed his p45


----------



## keybored (Mar 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> He’s not locked up for that?!  (Can’t bring myself to read it)


No, and as far as I can tell he's kept his job. It's a piss take.


----------



## Edie (Mar 19, 2021)

keybored said:


> No, and as far as I can tell he's kept his job. It's a piss take.


Wow. How is that even possible. That’s an absolute outrage. What can we do about that?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> He’s not locked up for that?!  (Can’t bring myself to read it)


It's unbelievable. And not even a proper cop but a probationer. Should be in prison and sacked. And he's neither.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> Wow. How is that even possible. That’s an absolute outrage. What can we do about that?


I wonder if it's possible to appeal a magistrate's court sentence as too lenient


----------



## Edie (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if it's possible to appeal a magistrate's court sentence as too lenient


Fuck this. West Midland Police need to be held to account. As does that magistrate. That poor woman. The man is a dangerous, misogynistic piece of shit. He needs to learn a lesson not be given his job back.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> Fuck this. West Midland Police need to be held to account. As does that magistrate. That poor woman. The man is a dangerous, misogynistic piece of shit. He needs to learn a lesson not be given his job back.


Yeh surely police officers should be held to a higher standard and where they act as this man has should have the book thrown at them.


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

On the news just now it said the cop was suspended from duty and facing a gross misconduct charge, so I guess he won't have a job soon enough.


----------



## tony.c (Mar 19, 2021)

R4 PM program saying that West Midlands Police have now suspended him and will begin a disciplinary hearing which they say they couldn't start until the outcome of the magistrates case.
Seems he will probably be sacked as a result.

Edit: Simultaneous posting with killer b


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

Reading the Guardian version of this, it seems like he is now suspended and facing a disciplinary.

Edit: you wait an hour for one...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Reading the Guardian version of this, it seems like he is now suspended and facing a disciplinary.


He should be facing a disciplinary through the bars of a cell


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

tony.c said:


> R4 PM program saying that West Midlands Police have now suspended him and will begin a disciplinary hearing which they say they couldn't start until the outcome of the magistrates case.
> Seems he will probably be sacked as a result.


got to wonder if this would have been the case had it happened a few weeks ago mind.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 19, 2021)

ACAB but WMP are particularly bad


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Mar 19, 2021)

There're two distinct things here: the sentence and the employer's response (setting aside the fact that the employer is the police).  

Neither is acceptably severe, but it would only be possible to appeal the sentence if it wasn't in line with sentencing guidelines.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if a first offence for an "upstanding member of society" plus a possible association with the same lodge/golf club as the magistrate is typically in line with what he got.  

However, I would have thought that this would count as gross misconduct where an employee has misused training gained during their work to assault a member of the public, and bringing the reputation of his employer into disrepute.  However, as his employer is the police, maybe they regard their reputation as untarnishable, at least as far as the people who matter to them are concerned.  

The only upside to this is that some more of the public might begin to realise that the police are institutionally violent and sexist as well as racist, but I suspect that the bad apples myth will endure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

Struwwelpeter said:


> There're two distinct things here: the sentence and the employer's response (setting aside the fact that the employer is the police).
> 
> Neither is acceptably severe, but it would only be possible to appeal the sentence if it wasn't in line with sentencing guidelines.  I wouldn't be at all surprised if a first offence for an "upstanding member of society" plus a possible association with the same lodge/golf club as the magistrate is typically in line with what he got.
> 
> ...


I doubt it's the first offence he's committed, sure most people would take some time to work their way up to it. Tho it may be the first time he's been caught


----------



## Cid (Mar 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I wonder if it's possible to appeal a magistrate's court sentence as too lenient



Problem is that a magistrate (or in this case DJ) is only ever going to be working with what the prosecution is able to come up with, based on the investigation by er... the police. I dunno, the man (I had a quick google, District Judge Nick Watson) may be a tool and a pillock, but people often get off with shit like this because investigations are poorly funded and conducted by incompetent, corrupt idiots (the police), then passed to underfunded, overworked prosectors.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 19, 2021)

Spoiler: CCTV footage of this cunt.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 19, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> ACAB but WMP are particularly bad


ACABBWMCAMBTO is indeed a bit of a mouthful


----------



## spanglechick (Mar 19, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Spoiler: CCTV footage of this cunt.



And THAT is the in-vino-veritas  personality of the type of person who wants to be a cop.  Listen to how much he’s _loving_ being able to play-act the big powerful policeman who knows all the magic words that grant him all the power he wants over other people. Foul little shit. 

The biggest problem with the police is that you or I wouldn’t soil ourselves by having to work alongside the bully boys and jumped up shitstains like him, and anyway, don’t get turned on at the thought of flexing power over others with a nice shiny badge.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Mar 19, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Spoiler: CCTV footage of this cunt.




Wow.  How is that only worth a £500 fine?


----------



## bimble (Mar 19, 2021)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Wow.  How is that only worth a £500 fine?


Not a fine. That’s her “compensation”. She has been compensated. She might not be able to sleep and her kids are terrified of police but hey she could buy a tv with that. Justice. Unbelievable.


----------



## muscovyduck (Mar 19, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> ACABBWMCAMBTO


I... what?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 19, 2021)

muscovyduck said:


> I... what?


All Coppers Are Bastards But West Midlands Cops Are More Bastardy Than Others


----------



## oryx (Mar 19, 2021)

This is the lead story on Channel 4 News tonight, with some 'interesting' info on crime committed by police.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> something along those lines, very possibly something he saw on a tv show.



This is just speculation. He has yet to stand trial. He is not convicted yet. 

Putting blame on crime drama I do object to. 

I'm not great watcher of crime drama. Its just not my thing. I prefer Sci Fi. 

I did see The Serpent. Which was all the more scary as it was based on fact. 

I'm also into a wide range of film. Some of which is violent. 

I think there is difference between real life and fiction. I don't think fiction makes people go out and be murderers.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 19, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> West Midlands Cops Are More Bastardy Than Others


Now that's a rare Smith's bootleg.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2021)

I do notice men on my generation have mixed views on police. Living through the 80s where the police were violent its seems there default mode to me.

I was at a community meeting run by Council last night on community safety issues. I felt compelled to raise issue of what happened at the vigil. As no one else did. Police said it was now going to subject to an inquiry.

In area like mine Brixton/ Loughborough Junction which is one of Englands and Lambeth most deprived areas crime and anti social behavior affects people directly. And its high. It is not that people just don't trust police. They want policing that responds to them. Not done to them.


----------



## killer b (Mar 19, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Living through the 80s where the police were violent


the police are still violent now, dude.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 19, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Spoiler: CCTV footage of this cunt.





And again with the violent trigger response to a woman laughing.

“Why are you laughing, why are you laughing, why are you laughing in my face...?”


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> the police are still violent now, dude.



Yes I know. Perhaps I didn't explain myself enough. Police actions at the vigil were them reverting to default mode of keeping "order".

Which someone of my somewhat aged generation saw a lot of in 80s.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 19, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The justification the Met is using is that its intervening to protect people's health. That is that its actions on that night are for the public good
> 
> Read this few days ago. Argues that putting police in position of protecting peoples health is a worrying use of state power.
> 
> ...


As an aside - I Googled the author, Mashal Iftikhar.
She wrote an interesting article three years back about sectarianism in Pakistan. The Beginner’s Guide to Religious Apartheid | Skin Deep
She is concerned about constitutional reforms such as the requirement to define Jesus in a Moslem way - leaving Christians open to attack for blasphemy.
She is also concerned - as a Sunni she says - that the Ahmadis continue to be persecuted with the backing of the constitution of Pakistan, and many are forced to emigrate. 

A religious liberal then.

I find it hard to draw conclusions from her medical article though.
It seems likely that her view of the policing of an allegedly HIV positive black man nearly twenty years ago is not an easy stretch to a mass vigil round the Clapham Common bandstand. I could give several examples of hysterical policing - and hysterical GP surgery responses during the AIDS crisis.

I suspect this trainee psychiatrist is no more than 25 - so not likely to have been in a position to take note of the abuses she cited.
She may not even be aware of the death of Sean Rigg- a case where adequate psychiatric aftercare might not have led Sean to get fatally involved with the police.

Polemics can be satisfying - but Ms/Dr Ithikhar's one cited above actually throwas everything in but the kitchen sink.

Had she confined herself to making a couple lof clear points - as she did in her article about religious persecution in Pakistan I think it would have been better.


----------



## Ms T (Mar 19, 2021)

killer b said:


> On the news just now it said the cop was suspended from duty and facing a gross misconduct charge, so I guess he won't have a job soon enough.


They will have been waiting for the outcome of the trial. You can’t in legally sack someone until that process is over.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 20, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> And again with the violent trigger response to a woman laughing.
> 
> “Why are you laughing, why are you laughing, why are you laughing in my face...?”
> 
> ...


Got the cop thing of loudly (and falsely) commentating the Amazingly Heinous And Violent And Contrary To Section So-And-So Of The Whatever Act Thing Wot You Done To Me And Now I Am Allowed To Batter The Crap Out Of You But It's Just Reasonable Force Honest Guv (Wink Wink) down pat.


----------



## tony.c (Mar 20, 2021)

oryx said:


> This is the lead story on Channel 4 News tonight, with some 'interesting' info on crime committed by police.


And interview with the woman who was attacked.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 20, 2021)

Ms T said:


> They will have been waiting for the outcome of the trial. You can’t in legally sack someone until that process is over.


From something I saw in one of the news articles, the police couldn't begin their investigation process until the case was complete, presumably to prevent the two somehow interfering with each other.

Which sounds fair, but equally often ends up as a smokescreen - "we can't comment as there is a trial/internal investigation underway".


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Mar 20, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Got the cop thing of loudly (and falsely) commentating the Amazingly Heinous And Violent And Contrary To Section So-And-So Of The Whatever Act Thing Wot You Done To Me And Now I Am Allowed To Batter The Crap Out Of You But It's Just Reasonable Force Honest Guv (Wink Wink) down pat.




Yeah, but regardless of him being a cop, I mean.

He was just using whatever he had at his disposal. If he wasn't a copper he’d still react in some nasty and possibly violent way to a woman laughing at him.

I reckon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

Ms T said:


> They will have been waiting for the outcome of the trial. You can’t in legally sack someone until that process is over.


From the sounds of it he received the soft slap on the wrist on the basis he'd continue to be a police officer


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

tony.c said:


> And interview with the woman who was attacked.




Thanks for posting this. I hadn't seen the interview with Emma.

In the cctv video, I had wondered who was calling his name 'Ollie' and it seems that as the victim didn't know him it was the person/woman who came running across the road to stop him, possibly a neighbour.

Emma really nailed it when she reflected that he was acting like he was in a film, playing the role, pretending to be calling for back up etc. Just like spanglechick posted above. The fact she was able to find out who he is was in part helped by them being from such a small place. In somewhere like London that would have been much harder. Argh...I want to kick him in the nuts so bad.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Mar 20, 2021)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yeah, but regardless of him being a cop, I mean.
> 
> He was just using whatever he had at his disposal. If he wasn't a copper he’d still react in some nasty and possibly violent way to a woman laughing at him.
> 
> I reckon.



From the interview it's clear that he approached her as she was walking home and started harrassing her for no reason. 'Why are you following me you slag?' This wasn't just about her laughing, even if she did...he saw her as a target and attacked her. Just imagine if the neighbour hadn't came out and Emma hadn't been able to get away.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> From the sounds of it he received the soft slap on the wrist on the basis he'd continue to be a police officer


I do wonder if there might be a bit of a "boys will be boys" mindset in the police. After all, we've seen a steady trend in the direction of a more militarised, confrontational force, that probably has its roots in the riots of 1981, and/or the miners's strike, where wading in without worrying about the niceties is very much the order of the day. So, perhaps no surprise that the thuggish tendencies this oaf displayed are not taken nearly as seriously by the police as they should be - it's a necessary qualification for the job.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I do wonder if there might be a bit of a "boys will be boys" mindset in the police. After all, we've seen a steady trend in the direction of a more militarised, confrontational force, that probably has its roots in the riots of 1981, and/or the miners's strike, where wading in without worrying about the niceties is very much the order of the day. So, perhaps no surprise that the thuggish tendencies this oaf displayed are not taken nearly as seriously by the police as they should be - it's a necessary qualification for the job.


years back I read that the police force (or rather all UK police forces) can be divided into police support units of 21 cops as they transition from dealing with your everyday crime (or committing it) to dealing with public order, whether they're public order trained or not. Think this had def happened by the time of the miners strike, will have to check. But yeh an excess of aggression unlikely to retard a career in the police


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 20, 2021)

tony bunyan, 'from saltley to orgreave via brixton', journal of law and society 12.3 (1985), p. 295

e2a: this is a really interesting article and i'll pop it up somewhere more appropriate


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 20, 2021)

A strange coincidence...I wonder how often men are jailed for this? Man jailed after shouting abuse and threats at woman on south west London street


----------



## planetgeli (Mar 21, 2021)

Clapham vigil policing investigator is suing Home Office for sex and race bias
					

HM Inspector of Constabulary Matthew Parr claims that he faced discrimination for being a white man




					www.theguardian.com
				




Yes this is what was needed. Someone right up there in the investigation of the vigil who knows about discrimination and is prepared to act upon it.

A white man who is suing the home office for discrimination.


----------



## bimble (Mar 21, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> A strange coincidence...I wonder how often men are jailed for this? Man jailed after shouting abuse and threats at woman on south west London street


Strange coincidence because it was in Clapham? That’s not really much of a coincidence, if you think about it.
I’m surprised in a good way that what this man did has a name that makes it a criminal offence.
What’s described there is very much like the behaviour of someone who used to live on my street, before I moved. I did more than once think of contacting the police because he knew where I lived but I never did. It was frightening and happened every tine he saw me, but because he never hurt me physically (just shouted sexual abuse & threats) I didn’t know what to call it. Sometimes people in the shops where he’d do it if he saw me there would intervene but mostly they just pretended not to see.
It started from one day when he grabbed my arm whilst talking and I said please don’t do that, which made me his enemy.

Eta just remembered I did in the end call the police about it one time but what they did was offer to go round his knock on his door and tell him off and I didn’t want that thought it would make it worse/ dangerous.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 21, 2021)

Mayor Khan says he has confidence in Cressida Dick as head of Met even though he is not happy about how Met behaved at the the Vigil 









						Mayor says he has confidence in Met boss after vigil policing fiasco
					

Sadiq Khan today said he does have confidence in Cressida Dick following a row over the policing of a vigil for Sarah Everard on Clapham Common.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




This is looking like the line from the "sensible" Labour party under control of Starmer. 



> He added: “I think it’s possible to have confidence in the Commissioner but be unhappy about how the vigil was policed.



Lost for words here. Its redolent of the Orwellian New Labour speak I've got used to in Lambeth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 21, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Mayor Khan says he has confidence in Cressida Dick as head of Met even though he is not happy about how Met behaved at the the Vigil
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeh it's possible

But it's not a position anyone can seriously hold


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Mar 22, 2021)

He is spineless

"Asked on LBC whether London’s streets were safe for women, the mayor replied: “No they aren’t, or for girls - and it’s really important that people of my gender understand that"
12th March 2021


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 30, 2021)

Predictably an investigation has found the filth did nothing wrong at the vigil


----------



## Steel Icarus (Mar 30, 2021)

Sarah Everard vigil report strongly defends police's use of force
					

Inspectorate review says Met’s conduct was ‘absolutely right’, as senior officers demand apologies from politicians




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## existentialist (Mar 30, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Sarah Everard vigil report strongly defends police's use of force
> 
> 
> Inspectorate review says Met’s conduct was ‘absolutely right’, as senior officers demand apologies from politicians
> ...


Well, knock me down with a feather! The government's own police watchdog says it's all OK. Fancy that...


----------



## dessiato (Mar 30, 2021)

“Now who could possibly have predicted that? What a surprise!“ he said sarcastically.


----------



## starfish (Mar 30, 2021)




----------



## Orang Utan (Mar 30, 2021)

This isn’t Have Got News For You ffs


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 30, 2021)

Is she any worse than her predecessors? Would her replacement be any better?


----------



## andysays (Mar 30, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Sarah Everard vigil report strongly defends police's use of force
> 
> 
> Inspectorate review says Met’s conduct was ‘absolutely right’, as senior officers demand apologies from politicians
> ...


I suppose I shouldn't find this surprising, but the report appears to say that public confidence in the police suffered because of the vigil or the media coverage, rather than because of the heavy-handed policing.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 30, 2021)

A very disappointing result from the Court of Appeal, which is not going to change the ‘contact at all costs’ approach in the Family Court in cases of domestic violence, despite evidence the courts have a sexist approach that puts women at risk. This is especially disappointing as in the new DV Bill, children will be classed as victims in their own right, as opposed to mere ‘witnesses’. I appreciate this isn’t about women going missing but felt relevant for this thread given the wider conversations that have taken place: 









						Court of Appeal misses opportunity to effect culture change needed in family courts - Women’s Aid
					

Court of Appeal misses opportunity to effect culture change needed in family courts in what could have been a landmark case.




					www.womensaid.org.uk


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2021)

Sarah Everard vigil report strongly defends police's use of force
					

Inspectorate review says Met’s conduct was ‘absolutely right’, as senior officers demand apologies from politicians




					www.theguardian.com
				







> The report appears to rebuke critics, especially those in “positions of responsibility”. Matt Parr, Her Majesty’s inspector of constabulary, who led the inspection team, said: “Condemnation of the Met’s actions within mere hours of the vigil – including from people in positions of responsibility – was unwarranted, showed a lack of respect for public servants facing a complex situation, and undermined public confidence in policing based on very limited evidence.



"Lack of respect for public servants'

I assume he is talking about my local Council leadership, my Labour MP and the Mayor as those in positions of responsibility.

These are hardly figures of the hard left.

The logic is that those elected to represent the people should not criticise those who run the state.

I thought democracy was partly supposed to be about holding "public servants" to account.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2021)

Lack of Respect for public servants. 

That phrase really winds me up. 

I've spent years having to deal with Council "public servants". Most of whom earn at least 4 times what I get. Why should I respect them? 

I just try to deal with state bureaucracy in responsibly civilised way. But I'm not going to "respect" them.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2021)

In Brixton its the anniversary of the 81 riot/uprising in a few days. 

Policing in Lambeth hasn't changed much.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 30, 2021)

Here is Cressida Dick on policing:



> Being a police officer is perhaps not for absolutely everyone, but for people who join us and like it, they love it. As a police officer you get to help people, protect people, you get to keep society safe. You can have an incredibly rewarding, challenging, interesting and satisfying time, and there are so many different jobs that you can do as a police officer











						Cressida Dick: honouring London’s policewomen
					

A profile of Met Police Commissioner Cressida Dick, as part of our series celebrating 100 years of women policing in London.




					www.met.police.uk
				




It sickens me that someone like this can get away with it twice ( ordering a Brazilian to be shot). The establishment always wins.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 31, 2021)

bimble said:


> Strange coincidence because it was in Clapham? That’s not really much of a coincidence, if you think about it.
> I’m surprised in a good way that what this man did has a name that makes it a criminal offence.
> What’s described there is very much like the behaviour of someone who used to live on my street, before I moved. I did more than once think of contacting the police because he knew where I lived but I never did. It was frightening and happened every tine he saw me, but because he never hurt me physically (just shouted sexual abuse & threats) I didn’t know what to call it. Sometimes people in the shops where he’d do it if he saw me there would intervene but mostly they just pretended not to see.
> It started from one day when he grabbed my arm whilst talking and I said please don’t do that, which made me his enemy.
> ...


How many women would even report such events as being followed?  we all know there would be very little point.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 31, 2021)

I am so full of rage I hardly know where to begin. The Police has always attracted hateful, misogenistic men who like violence.  Did the murderors colleagues not realise he was a pest to women or violent?

40+ years  ago cops told women to stay home when the yorkshire ripper killed women like me in the north, then branded those killed as prostitutes or women of 'loose morals', then 39 years ago a bus full of cops leered and cat called 'hello darling' sort of shit at me.   Rape is still not investigated or convicted. Women are still unsafe in their homes and well as on the streets. 2 women a week are mudered by their male partners.   I see and hear misogeny everwhere and its so common place most men don't even recognise it, why would the policeforce recognise it in their own ranks?

I've seen very little lately to convince me that policemen have changed.

Sarah Everard RIP


----------



## David Clapson (Mar 31, 2021)

It's difficult to make a decent police force out of the sort of people who want to be in it.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 31, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> It's difficult to make a decent police force out of the sort of people who want to be in it.


Also difficult to make one out of the sort of people who don't want to be in it.

What we need is robots programmed with a randomiser that makes up crimes on the spot.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 31, 2021)

View from local Cllr who had been helping to organise the vigil.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> It's difficult to make a decent police force out of the sort of people who want to be in it.


That's not the problem. Never mind the people who want to join, the people who have joined, who comprise the present police force, make it impossible to have a decent force (and I'd say having a decent police force is a contradiction in terms anyway)


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 31, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> It's difficult to make a decent police force out of the sort of people who want to be in it.


What an absolute load of shit.

lol.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> What an absolute load of shit.
> 
> lol.


why?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> What an absolute load of shit.
> 
> lol.


Nice reasoned deconstruction there...


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> It's difficult to make a decent police force out of the sort of people who want to be in it.





Raheem said:


> Also difficult to make one out of the sort of people who don't want to be in it.
> 
> What we need is robots programmed with a randomiser that makes up crimes on the spot.


I did find myself wondering what people who might be potentially considering a career in the police might be thinking after watching some of the footage from the demos. What worries me is that there will be those going "yeah, I'll have a bit of that - a punchup on a Saturday afternoon and no danger of getting arrested for it", vs the ones who are looking on in horror and thinking "that's not what I want to be a police officer for". With the consequential likelihood that the ones up for a ruck might be more inclined to apply than those are driven by more benign motives.


----------



## Mr paulee (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I did find myself wondering what people who might be potentially considering a career in the police might be thinking after watching some of the footage from the demos. What worries me is that there will be those going "yeah, I'll have a bit of that - a punchup on a Saturday afternoon and no danger of getting arrested for it", vs the ones who are looking on in horror and thinking "that's not what I want to be a police officer for". With the consequential likelihood that the ones up for a ruck might be more inclined to apply than those are driven by more benign motives.


Yes because that's the only types that want a career in the Police service?
And you talk about my reasoning?
lol - sit down.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes because that's the only types that want a career in the Police service?
> And you talk about my reasoning?
> lol - sit down.


Oh, you're that kind of cunt, are you?

_shrug_


----------



## IC3D (Mar 31, 2021)

Police have done fuck all for 12 months this must make them feel relevant to the pandemic


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes because that's the only types that want a career in the Police service?
> And you talk about my reasoning?
> lol - sit down.


i think you'd fit in well in the police, what with you being an existing bad apple. you'd get the coveted worm prize at passing out, which for you would doubtless be within hours of enrolling at hendon


----------



## oryx (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I did find myself wondering what people who might be potentially considering a career in the police might be thinking after watching some of the footage from the demos. What worries me is that there will be those going "yeah, I'll have a bit of that - a punchup on a Saturday afternoon and no danger of getting arrested for it", vs the ones who are looking on in horror and thinking "that's not what I want to be a police officer for". With the consequential likelihood that the ones up for a ruck might be more inclined to apply than those are driven by more benign motives.


This, and also the footage of the police officer assaulting the woman using his police training...


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

oryx said:


> This, and also the footage of the police officer assaulting the woman using his police training...


Yes, but "lol"


----------



## oryx (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Yes, but "lol"


Not sure I get you?


----------



## ddraig (Mar 31, 2021)

Mr paulee said:


> Yes because that's the only types that want a career in the Police service?
> And you talk about my reasoning?
> lol - sit down.


Just going to be a child and say "lol" or actually back up your posts?


----------



## existentialist (Mar 31, 2021)

oryx said:


> Not sure I get you?


It was a reference to another poster whose argument against anything thoughtful appears to be "lol". Probably a bit obscure...oops


----------



## oryx (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It was a reference to another poster whose argument against anything thoughtful appears to be "lol". Probably a bit obscure...oops


Got you, no worries


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 31, 2021)

OK the police are bastards and no one likes them.  I'd really like it just for once, if instead of a general macho bun fight on this thread, we could actually talk about the more pressing issues facing any woman (or indeed any lgbtq person) about the right to walk home safely.

*Can we address the issue of safety of women on the street?* or the issue of police telling women to stay home for their own safety? or the issue of society's misogeny in general?


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 31, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It was a reference to another poster whose argument against anything thoughtful appears to be "lol". Probably a bit obscure...oops



Its normal behaviour for Mr paulee on Brixton forum. Its used as form of ridicule.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 31, 2021)

Does anyone know for instance if the culture of misogeny of the police  that led to the failure to investigate the yorkshire rippers crimes was ever addressed?  What equality and diversity screening / awareness training do police go through? any links, stats etc


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 31, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> OK the police are bastards and no one likes them.  I'd really like it just for once, if instead of a general macho bun fight on this thread, we could actually talk about the more pressing issues facing any woman (or indeed any lgbtq person) about the right to walk home safely.
> 
> Can we address the issue of safety of women on the street? or the issue of police telling women to stay home for their own safety? or the issue of society's misogeny in general?



Have u read much of this thread?

A lot of these issues have been covered.

Policing has come up due to police actions at the vigil and the accused being a police officer.

Effectively the Met leadership have silenced women's voices.

On ACAB. My reading of what happened over vigil was that local Lambeth police were working with those who wanted to a vigil. They were over ruled by Cressida Dick.

So on local level police wanted to work with local community.

When I raised issue of the policing of vigil and Cressida Dick over ruling local police none of the local police present at a local consultation meeting I attended stepped in to defend their boss.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 31, 2021)

so is misogeny all solved now? did I miss that bit?


----------



## ash (Mar 31, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> so is misogeny all solved now? did I miss that bit?


Yep - just like institutional racism.  It’s all good now 👍🙄


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Mar 31, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> so is misogeny all solved now? did I miss that bit?


If you're a bloke, yes.


----------



## Sue (Mar 31, 2021)

ash said:


> Yep - just like institutional racism.  It’s all good now 👍🙄


Yep, move along, nothing to see here.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 1, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> so is misogeny all solved now? did I miss that bit?


Typically, people will usually just observe that the thread has drifted off topic...


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jun 8, 2021)

Wayne Couzens has now pleaded guilty.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jun 8, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Wayne Couzens has now pleaded guilty.


Pleaded guilty to kidnap & rape but "accepted responsibility for killing Ms Everard but did not enter a plea on the charge of murder."


----------



## existentialist (Jun 8, 2021)

I guess this is the bit where we have to be careful not to speculate on what he might be trying to achieve with those pleas...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I guess this is the bit where we have to be careful not to speculate on what he might be trying to achieve with those pleas...


for a minute i thought he might be taking responsibility and wouldn't put her friends and family through the trauma of a trial


----------



## existentialist (Jun 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> for a minute i thought he might be taking responsibility and wouldn't put her friends and family through the trauma of a trial


It'd have been nice to think so...


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jun 8, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> Pleaded guilty to kidnap & rape but "accepted responsibility for killing Ms Everard but did not enter a plea on the charge of murder."


Reminds me of Leanne Tiernan's murderer back in 2000, who admitted to abducting and sexually assaulting her before her death, which he claimed was caused by her falling off his bed and hitting her head. The post mortem had already shown Leanne died of strangulation and not a head injury though, so that poor excuse was dismissed. What's Couzen's explanation then for being responsible for Sarah's death but not her murder???


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Reminds me of Leanne Tiernan's murderer back in 2000, who admitted to abducting and sexually assaulting her before her death, which he claimed was caused by her falling off his bed and hitting her head. The post mortem had already shown Leanne died of strangulation and not a head injury though, so that poor excuse was dismissed. What's Couzen's explanation then for being responsible for Sarah's death but not her murder???


tbh it doesn't bear thinking about


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 8, 2021)

He's just being a cunt, looking for his only way out of never being released.


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

He's awaiting the medical evidence, which could be one of two things: first, if it's medical evidence in respect of the victim,  in case she had any underlying condition which he could use to bring murder down to manslaughter; or, secondly (and more likely), if it's medical evidence in respect of him, to prove some reduced mental capacity, which could reduce murder to manslaughter.


----------



## Glitter (Jun 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> He's awaiting the medical evidence, which could be one of two things: first, if it's medical evidence in respect of the victim,  in case she had any underlying condition which he could use to bring murder down to manslaughter; or, secondly (and more likely), if it's medical evidence in respect of him, to prove some reduced mental capacity, which could reduce murder to manslaughter.



Given the condition of the body (it was extremely difficukt to identify her I think) I’m guessing he’s going with the ‘I only intended to kidnap and rape her’ and he’s hoping cause of death isn’t going to be able to be determined.


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

Glitter said:


> Given the condition of the body (it was extremely difficukt to identify her I think) I’m guessing he’s going with the ‘I only intended to kidnap and rape her’ and he’s hoping cause of death isn’t going to be able to be determined.


Possibly, though I'm not sure how that would fit with him accepting responsibility for killing her.


----------



## Glitter (Jun 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> Possibly, though I'm not sure how that would fit with him accepting responsibility for killing her.



If they can’t prove it was on purpose he can claim it was accidental rather than deliberate as his defence?


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

Glitter said:


> If they can’t prove it was on purpose he can claim it was accidental rather than deliberate as his defence?


Possibly. But I've got a sneaking suspicion that he's going down the 'diminished responsibility' route. Hence the head-banging whilst in custody.  Especially in light of the post mortem suggesting the cause of death was compression of the neck.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 8, 2021)

Wanking in Maccy Ds, and then kidnapping, raping and killing a woman is the first sign of a breakdown you know


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> Possibly. But I've got a sneaking suspicion that he's going down the 'diminished responsibility' route. Hence the head-banging whilst in custody.



Then its odd, isn't it, to accept responsibility, as he apparently has done?


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Then its odd, isn't it, to accept responsibility, as he apparently has done?



No, he'd be effectively accepting he was causally responsible i.e. that his acts caused her death, but that he wasn't entirely culpable for that.


----------



## planetgeli (Jun 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> No, he'd be effectively accepting he was causally responsible i.e. that his acts caused her death, but that he wasn't entirely culpable for that.



I don't think that's how it works though. Diminished responsibility, from the accused's side, is about denial of responsibility. You don't start by saying "I was responsible....but only a bit responsible".


----------



## Jimbeau (Jun 8, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I guess this is the bit where we have to be careful not to speculate on what he might be trying to achieve with those pleas...


Absolutely. Awful and compelling though this case is to discuss, it's now sub judice and debate on these public boards might be seen as prejudicial. Have asked the mods to take a look.


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> I don't think that's how it works though. Diminished responsibility, from the accused's side, is about denial of responsibility. You don't start by saying "I was responsible....but only a bit responsible".


That is literally what diminished responsibility is!  And why, unlike insanity, it's only a partial defence i.e. reduces murder to manslaughter, rather than acquittal.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

Jimbeau said:


> Absolutely. Awful and compelling though this case is to discuss, it's now sub judice and debate on these public boards might be seen as prejudicial. Have asked the mods to take a look.


it's ok, we already have our resident legal mind on the case


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

Jimbeau said:


> Absolutely. Awful and compelling though this case is to discuss, it's now sub judice and debate on these public boards might be seen as prejudicial. Have asked the mods to take a look.


I appreciate that this is well-meaning, but I think you're overreacting; there's been nothing said here that comes remotely close to a substantial risk of serious prejudice.


----------



## Jimbeau (Jun 8, 2021)

Athos said:


> I appreciate that this is well-meaning, but I think you're overreacting; there's been nothing said here that comes remotely close to a substantial risk of serious prejudice.


No, of course not - not yet. But debates do run very quickly and these boards have a broad readership. Putting a watch on this thread is only sensible, in my view. The Websleuths forum closed its threads on this case a long while ago.


----------



## Athos (Jun 8, 2021)

Jimbeau said:


> No, of course not - not yet. But debates do run very quickly and these boards have a broad readership. Putting a watch on this thread is only sensible, in my view. The Websleuths forum closed its threads on this case a long while ago.


Fair enough. Don't think it needs locking yet, just a bit of discretion about what we post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 8, 2021)

Jimbeau said:


> The Websleuths forum closed its threads on this case a long while ago.


i wonder they are as i imagine them, superannuated velma dinkleys and norville rogers living out their past glories on the interweb


----------



## Jimbeau (Jun 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder they are as i imagine them, superannuated velma dinkleys and norville rogers living out their past glories on the interweb


Yoinks!


----------



## tim (Jun 8, 2021)

I'd have thought that fact that he has admitted kidnap and rape, would make it less likely that there would be much less of a risk of the discussion here breaking sub judice laws. And anyway, the focus here isn't on him as much as on the misogyny and general inadequacy of the police in general.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 8, 2021)

What’s the sentencing differential, potentially? He’s got kidnap and rape, reduction for guilty plea but aggravating factor of him using his position as police to commit the crimes.  

What sort of difference would there be between manslaughter with no guilty plea, and murder with a guilty plea?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 9, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> What’s the sentencing differential, potentially? He’s got kidnap and rape, reduction for guilty plea but aggravating factor of him using his position as police to commit the crimes.
> 
> What sort of difference would there be between manslaughter with no guilty plea, and murder with a guilty plea?


The cause of death seems to be compression of the neck, so I think it might be hard to concoct a manslaughter defence that a jury will accept, given the known circumstances.

In the event that they do, though, the maximum sentence is still life, and the judge has to consider giving a life sentence if the defendant represents a danger to the public.

Ianal, but it seems like there are a lot of hurdles to getting anything other than a very heavy sentence, given that it looks like insanity is not going to be pleaded.


----------



## Athos (Jun 9, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> What’s the sentencing differential, potentially? He’s got kidnap and rape, reduction for guilty plea but aggravating factor of him using his position as police to commit the crimes.
> 
> What sort of difference would there be between manslaughter with no guilty plea, and murder with a guilty plea?


Murder is a mandatory life sentence, with the possibility of a whole life order, so potentially quite a signify difference.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 10, 2021)

Athos said:


> Murder is a mandatory life sentence, with the possibility of a whole life order, so potentially quite a signify difference.


But without a whole life tariff isn’t life potentially only twenty years or simething?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jun 10, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> But without a whole life tariff isn’t life potentially only twenty years or simething?


20 years minimum, hopefully! He might be able to apply for parole after then, but that doesn't mean he'd be successful. I think he will get life though, because of the publicity and the fact they can't be seen to let coppers get away with this kind of thing just because of their "authority figure" status.


----------



## Athos (Jun 10, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> But without a whole life tariff isn’t life potentially only twenty years or simething?


For a defendant that's over 18, the minimum term can be as low as 15 years, with the potential for further reduction for mitigating factors like previously good character, a guilty plea, and time spent on remand.  But a more likely starting point in a case of a murder by a person in a position of authority and for a sexual motive is 30 years.


----------



## Mr paulee (Jul 1, 2021)

Police breached fundamental rights at Sarah Everard vigil and Bristol protests, inquiry finds
					

Police ‘failed to understand their legal duties’ and used excessive force, MPs find




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2021)

Cunt took his time.









						Sarah Everard murder: Met PC Wayne Couzens pleads guilty
					

Met Police chief Cressida Dick says "everyone in policing" feels betrayed by Sarah Everard's killer.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Sue (Jul 9, 2021)

planetgeli said:


> Cunt took his time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Using a hired car definitely makes it look premeditated -- will that increase his sentence anyone know?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2021)

Sue said:


> Using a hired car definitely makes it look premeditated -- will that increase his sentence anyone know?


It'll be one of many, many factors. Given that he was a serving police officer, and if there is any evidence that he used his status to abduct her, I suspect such factors will be the tweeting of small birds in comparison.


----------



## Sue (Jul 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It'll be one of many, many factors. Given that he was a serving police officer, and if there is any evidence that he used his status to abduct her, I suspect such factors will be the tweeting of small birds in comparison.


Yeah, just looked it up. Looks like there are quite a few aggravating factors  (When I said sentence, know it's mandatory for murder. Not sure of the terminology but guess I mean the recommendation of how long that actually means.)






						Sentencing - Mandatory life sentences in Murder cases | The Crown Prosecution Service
					






					www.cps.gov.uk


----------



## planetgeli (Jul 9, 2021)

Sue said:


> Yeah, just looked it up. Looks like there are quite a few aggravating factors  (When I said sentence, know it's mandatory for murder. Not sure of the terminology but guess I mean the recommendation of how long that actually means.)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tariff is the word you mean I think.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 9, 2021)

Minimum tariff will be high ~30. rape+ murder with detailed pre-planning in hiring a car and buying a roll of adhesive tape.

Discount given for guilty plea, will still be ~30.

As an aside, his pleading guilty means that the full details of what happened may never be known or even eeked out, in situations such as this where they are bang to rights they often plead guilty as keeping that knowledge to themselves is a power they can hold on to. Cunts make yer blood run cold.


----------



## Edie (Jul 9, 2021)

I see that he’d previously been accused of at least two episodes of indecent exposure which were clearly not investigated properly. It’s so utterly disrespectful to women that a man who is a suspected sex offender is placed in a position of power by the state. So dismissive. We all _know_- it’s common fucking sense- that a man who gets off on the power of indecent exposure is only one step away from rape. Why give him a fucking badge and license?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2021)

Edie said:


> I see that he’d previously been accused of at least two episodes of indecent exposure which were clearly not investigated properly. It’s so utterly disrespectful to women that a man who is a suspected sex offender is placed in a position of power by the state. So dismissive. We all _know_- it’s common fucking sense- that a man who gets off on the power of indecent exposure is only one step away from rape. Why give him a fucking badge and license?


I'm assuming that's a rhetorical question? Because the answer is obvious - sexual offences against women, even "mild" ones, count for a lot less than blokish copper solidarity.


----------



## Edie (Jul 9, 2021)

Yes it was rhetorical


----------



## Leighsw2 (Jul 9, 2021)

Another reminder that indecent exposure is all too often a gateway crime to much more serious sexual offending and deserves to be treated as such by police and CPS.


----------



## baldrick (Jul 9, 2021)

I think there's more to come about his offending. We know about the indecent exposure a few days before he killed Sarah Everard and I read about a link to a case from 2015. It seems unlikely to me for someone to go straight from flashing to abduction and murder. In his original police statement he made some bizarre claims about being blackmailed by a gang for using sex workers - seems like a strange lie so maybe there's a grain of truth about his use of sex workers. Might be a story there about his treatment of those women and if there is I wonder if any of them went to the police.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I think there's more to come about his offending. We know about the indecent exposure a few days before he killed Sarah Everard and I read about a link to a case from 2015. It seems unlikely to me for someone to go straight from flashing to abduction and murder. In his original police statement he made some bizarre claims about being blackmailed by a gang for using sex workers - seems like a strange lie so maybe there's a grain of truth about his use of sex workers. Might be a story there about his treatment of those women and if there is I wonder if any of them went to the police.


Yeh there's bound to be more and I bet some of his colleagues knew about some of it or had their suspicions


----------



## Sue (Jul 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh there's bound to be more and I bet some of his colleagues knew about some of it or had their suspicions


Yes and there being no trial means we may never hear the full story. Which I'm sure suits the Met fine.


----------



## bimble (Jul 9, 2021)

Guardian article talks about 'allegations that the Met, Britain’s biggest force, may not have properly investigated further claims of indecent exposure against Couzens in London in February 2021'.
Further claims = more incidents, more than the already known 3, which were also _reported to the police _
 makes me feel despair the whole whole thing.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Guardian article talks about 'allegations that the Met, Britain’s biggest force, may not have properly investigated further claims of indecent exposure against Couzens in London in February 2021'.
> Further claims = more incidents, more than the already known 3, which were also _reported to the police _
> makes me feel despair the whole whole thing.


When you couple this with the brutal, heavy-handed way that those same police waded into the Clapham vigil, you really have to wonder just how deep that seam of misogyny goes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> When you couple this with the brutal, heavy-handed way that those same police waded into the Clapham vigil, you really have to wonder just how deep that seam of misogyny goes.


Down to caverns measureless to anyone


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Guardian article talks about 'allegations that the Met, Britain’s biggest force, may not have properly investigated further claims of indecent exposure against Couzens in London in February 2021'.
> Further claims = more incidents, more than the already known 3, which were also _reported to the police _
> makes me feel despair the whole whole thing.


As Al Jolson said you ain't seen nothing yet


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 9, 2021)

The bastard planned it. Total psychopath. 😡


----------



## bimble (Jul 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> As Al Jolson said you ain't seen nothing yet


What's that supposed to mean plenty more despair where this came from ? Shitty response.  Thanks for that.


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 9, 2021)

existentialist said:


> When you couple this with the brutal, heavy-handed way that those same police waded into the Clapham vigil, you really have to wonder just how deep that seam of misogyny goes.



have been trying not to shout at news most of the day when the mention the met and the public reaction to her death

Women protested and the Met walked in a kicked  the shite of them after waiting to make sure VIP's had left


----------



## Indeliblelink (Jul 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> What's that supposed to mean plenty more despair where this came from ? Shitty response.  Thanks for that.


And it's wrong, Al Jolson famously said "You ain't heard nothing yet", it being the first talkie film.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> What's that supposed to mean plenty more despair where this came from ? Shitty response.  Thanks for that.


That's supposed to mean that I expect his criminal history will be quite extensive, that we've only peered into this particular abyss. If you're looking for good news or cheery stuff you can't expect to find it on threads like this. And you know that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 9, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> And it's wrong, Al Jolson famously said "You ain't heard nothing yet", it being the first talkie film.


You're quite right  and I'm sure we'll be hearing quite some more


----------



## BusLanes (Jul 9, 2021)

Think an AM was talking about the Met's poor record of investigation and disciplining officers earlier in the week at an Assembly committee


----------



## bimble (Jul 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> . If you're looking for good news or cheery stuff you can't expect to find it on threads like this. And you know that.


Coukd you be a bit more patronising please.


----------



## Sue (Jul 10, 2021)

And this kind of sums it up. FFS. 

'Privately, police leaders see Couzens and his offences as a one-off, and have not yet identified any broader issues or systems such as vetting that need urgent change. They will await the results of the IOPC investigations to see if reforms are needed.'



			https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/jul/09/sarah-everard-police-under-pressure-to-overhaul-internal-investigation


----------



## existentialist (Jul 10, 2021)

Sue said:


> And this kind of sums it up. FFS.
> 
> 'Privately, police leaders see Couzens and his offences as a one-off, and have not yet identified any broader issues or systems such as vetting that need urgent change. They will await the results of the IOPC investigations to see if reforms are needed.'
> 
> ...


"Just a bad apple." 

But you do have to wonder whether the barrel attracts this particular kind of bad apple, and/or makes apples go bad. Whatever it is, it's a systemic problem.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 10, 2021)

The orchard needs chopping down


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 10, 2021)

The image is completely fucked up. 'One rotten apple': there never is just one rotten apple.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 10, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> The image is completely fucked up. 'One rotten apple': there never is just one rotten apple.


That's literally the point of the saying.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 10, 2021)

Buddy Bradley said:


> That's literally the point of the saying.



Which is why people who say 'Just one rotten apple' are missing the point







						One ‘Bad Apple’ Can Spoil a Metaphor
					

The history of a rogue phrase




					www.merriam-webster.com


----------



## bimble (Jul 10, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> The bastard planned it. Total psychopath. 😡


If he'd done it on a whim he'd not qualify as a 'psychopath' ? Cos he planned it he is mad? Too easy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 10, 2021)

Sue said:


> And this kind of sums it up. FFS.
> 
> 'Privately, police leaders see Couzens and his offences as a one-off, and have not yet identified any broader issues or systems such as vetting that need urgent change. They will await the results of the IOPC investigations to see if reforms are needed.'
> 
> ...



They have to wait until the whitewash is complete to figure out that maybe someone repeatedly accused of sex offences should not have been serving as a copper?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> If he'd done it on a whim he'd not qualify as a 'psychopath' ? Cos he planned it he is mad? Too easy.


That's the trouble with flinging around terms of art - what people think of as a "psychopath" may not be the same as a clinical definition of the term.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> "Just a bad apple."
> 
> But you do have to wonder whether the barrel attracts this particular kind of bad apple, and/or makes apples go bad. Whatever it is, it's a systemic problem.


When the people in charge of the orchard are people like Priti Patel and Cressida dick it'd be a wonder if there's a single good apple left in any of the barrels


----------



## ricbake (Jul 10, 2021)

He has proven to be a homicidal, sexual predator and pervert. The indication is that he has been exhibiting aberrant behaviour for about 6 years.
His employers have been sending him out on to the London streets with equipment designed specifically to kill people. Presumably as part of a team, non of whom seemed to notice any issues with his behaviour.
You'd hope there were some form of psychological checks made by the Met Police before they hand over a sub machine gun.

Duty of care...
Pressure from the Met must have forced him to give a full guilty plea to avoid having to cover their negligence in court.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 10, 2021)

ricbake said:


> He has proven to be a homicidal, sexual predator and pervert. The indication is that he has been exhibiting aberrant behaviour for about 6 years.
> His employers have been sending him out on to the London streets with equipment designed specifically to kill people. Presumably as part of a team, non of whom seemed to notice any issues with his behaviour.
> You'd hope there were some form of psychological checks made by the Met Police before they hand over a sub machine gun.
> 
> ...


I did wonder about that last bit, too. I wonder what the sweetener was? A promise to try quite hard to prevent him getting his head kicked in in prison, maybe?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

ricbake said:


> He has proven to be a homicidal, sexual predator and pervert. The indication is that he has been exhibiting aberrant behaviour for about 6 years.
> His employers have been sending him out on to the London streets with equipment designed specifically to kill people. Presumably as part of a team, non of whom seemed to notice any issues with his behaviour.
> You'd hope there were some form of psychological checks made by the Met Police before they hand over a sub machine gun.
> 
> ...


Tbh I'm sure he fitted in to the met's canteen culture and was liked and admired by his colleagues


----------



## ricbake (Jul 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I did wonder about that last bit, too. I wonder what the sweetener was? A promise to try quite hard to prevent him getting his head kicked in in prison, maybe?


"You've been a naughty boy and gone far too far. You'll have to pay the price, but you're one of us and we look after our own"


----------



## Sue (Jul 10, 2021)

ricbake said:


> The indication is that he has been exhibiting aberrant behaviour for about 6 years.


At least six years. I'd be very surprised if he was reported the first time he did this tbh.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 10, 2021)

From the IOPC:

_Following today’s (Friday 9 July) guilty plea at the Old Bailey by Metropolitan Police Service Police Constable Wayne Couzens, who admitted murdering Sarah Everard, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has issued an update on its linked conduct investigations.

We have served a total of 12 gross misconduct or misconduct notices on police officers from several forces as we continue to investigate matters linked to the conduct of PC Couzens.  

One of our investigations has examined the circumstances surrounding how PC Couzens sustained head injuries in custody on 10 and 12 March after he had been arrested on suspicion of the murder of Sarah Everard. This investigation is nearing its conclusion and all officers involved have been treated as witnesses.

Other ongoing investigations are:    
_

_An investigation into alleged MPS failures to investigate two allegations of indecent exposure linked to PC Couzens in London in February 2021. *Two officers** are being investigated for possible breaches of professional standards at misconduct level._
_An investigation into alleged Kent Police failures to investigate an indecent exposure incident linked to PC Couzens in Kent in 2015. No notices have been served._
_An investigation into allegations that a probationary MPS police constable shared an inappropriate graphic with colleagues via social media. The officer subsequently manned a cordon at the scene of the search for Ms Everard. Three officers have been served with gross misconduct notices._
_An investigation into allegations that officers from a number of forces breached standards of professional behaviour while sharing information linked to the prosecution of PC Couzens via a messaging app. One officer has been served with a gross misconduct notice and another six have received misconduct notices._
_The serving of misconduct notices does not necessarily mean that disciplinary proceedings will follow._

**My bold*

The first and second bullets should be expanded into 'The whole shoddy organisation is  being investigated from top to bottom' but it looks as if the idea of 'just a few people not doing their job in a largely decent well-run organisation' is going to be the angle.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> From the IOPC:
> 
> _Following today’s (Friday 9 July) guilty plea at the Old Bailey by Metropolitan Police Service Police Constable Wayne Couzens, who admitted murdering Sarah Everard, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has issued an update on its linked conduct investigations.
> 
> ...


I don't think there is an adequate response possible in the current political climate, in part as there's not the political will I think among either the Tory or labour parties and the police themselves have great form for successfully opposing any reforms. Any reasonable response to the way that the police are both crammed with criminals and utterly incompetent (can the two be linked?) would involve ejecting and prosecuting large numbers of cops. And I think this would present more issues, both legal and administrative.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Jul 10, 2021)

When I lived in The Basque Country I was teaching a very senior politician who over various classes concluded with me  that 'You have a not overly employable young person who is attracted by some military discipline but not too much, a clear-cut political stance, a sense of belonging to an organisation with its uniform and its customs and secrets, the chance for physical violence, a clear-cut enemy, the workmates are the social life, being able to walk down the street out of their role and people not know their secret life and so on and on'.

He was making the point that in the Basque Country young people, often very similar people from similar backgrounds, ended up on one side or the other of photos like this one



It's not exactly like that in the UK but there is the at-present insurmountable problem that a great many of the attractions of policing the country  appeal to too many wrong'uns from the off or to people who end up corrupted.

  As Plato didn't say 'The last people you want in the police are people who want to be there'. I see no easy solution.


----------



## ricbake (Jul 10, 2021)

Sue said:


> At least six years. I'd be very surprised if he was reported the first time he did this tbh.


It seems there is some record of his being out of order that long ago.
And his employer should have been making very rigorous risk assessment of someone they were sending out to "protect the public" armed.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> When I lived in The Basque Country I was teaching a very senior politician who over various classes concluded with me  that 'You have a young person who is attracted by some military discipline but not too much, a clear-cut political stance, a sense of belonging to an organisation with its uniform and its customs and secrets, the chance for physical violence, a clear-cut enemy, the workmates are the social life, being able to walk down the street out of their role and people not know their secret life and so on and on'.
> 
> He was making the point that in the Basque Country young people, often very similar people from similar backgrounds, ended up on one side or the other of photos like this one
> 
> ...


I'm with Karl Popper on Plato but am open to alternative views. I went on a date with a woman from the Basque country who works as a professor in Limerick in Ireland. We met in Paris and drank Guinness but go nowhere.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 10, 2021)

not on this thread please


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> not on this thread please


Fair enough mate, I'll hold my tongue. Poor Sarah - I want to cry for her.


----------



## Cat Fan (Jul 10, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> From the IOPC:
> 
> _Following today’s (Friday 9 July) guilty plea at the Old Bailey by Metropolitan Police Service Police Constable Wayne Couzens, who admitted murdering Sarah Everard, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has issued an update on its linked conduct investigations.
> 
> ...


Sounds like the problem runs a lot deeper than just one officer. Other officers were enabling his sexual harrassment by (at least) not taking it seriously if not actively encouraging it.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

Having read the Guardian article today - and the obv. stuff not included in that - I can't recall a murder where the murderer left a more clear and obvious trail of clues.

Given his job, and the access he had to guns, he really could have ended himself rather than kill. I'm surprised he didn't.









						Police could have identified Sarah Everard killer as sex offender in 2015
					

Serving officer Wayne Couzens is suspected of committing indecent exposure three times before murder




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Espresso (Jul 10, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Having read the Guardian article today - and the obv. stuff not included in that - I can't recall a murder where the murderer left a more clear and obvious trail of clues.
> 
> Given his job, and the access he had to guns, he really could have ended himself rather than kill. I'm surprised he didn't.
> 
> ...



Must have been pretty sure he'd never get caught. Or if he did get caught, his buddies would cover for him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Having read the Guardian article today - and the obv. stuff not included in that - I can't recall a murder where the murderer left a more clear and obvious trail of clues.
> 
> Given his job, and the access he had to guns, he really could have ended himself rather than kill. I'm surprised he didn't.
> 
> ...


You should consult a doctor if your memory is really so poor. See for example the appalling killing of those two sisters in fryent country park. Most of the time murderers leave such a clear series of clues that even the British police can follow them to the perpetrator


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 10, 2021)

Espresso said:


> Must have been pretty sure he'd never get caught. Or if he did get caught, his buddies would cover for him.



The thing is he didn't need to do all that. I have to read it as someone who wanted to be caught.

I mean .. pulling up, literally on the South Circ itself, in a rented car that has associated your credit card, driving license, on half a dozen cctv bus routes  ... and then buying shit off Amazon. And that's just for starters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The thing is he didn't need to do all that. I have to read it as someone who wanted to be caught.
> 
> I mean .. pulling up, literally on the South Circ itself, in a rented car that has associated your credit card, driving license, on half a dozen cctv bus routes  ... and then buying shit off Amazon. And that's just for starters.


No one ever said cops were smart


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 10, 2021)

Interesting form of rehabilitation for a flasher. Give them a gun to wave about in public.


----------



## tim (Jul 10, 2021)

Espresso said:


> Must have been pretty sure he'd never get caught. Or if he did get caught, his buddies would cover for him.


If so, it's a reflection of how stupid he is because he left a trail of clues behind him. As to Met Omerta, no cop, however, corrupt would risk their own career and freedom trying to cover up a crime as high profile as this


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

tim said:


> If so, it's a reflection of how stupid he is because he left a trail of clues behind him. As to Met Omerta, no cop, however, corrupt would risk their own career and freedom trying to cover up a crime as high profile as this


Who needs a cover up when you can evade responsibility for something eg cressida dick? barring some great surprise Teflon Cressida will just wipe the shit away again and altho there may be some local difficulty I expect things will continue just as they were


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> If he'd done it on a whim he'd not qualify as a 'psychopath' ? Cos he planned it he is mad? Too easy.


It was a visceral reaction really. "Psychopath" does not mean "mad". Just the thought that he'd planned it made it seem even worse (if that's possible) in my mind when I read that he (allegedly) had.




existentialist said:


> That's the trouble with flinging around terms of art - what people think of as a "psychopath" may not be the same as a clinical definition of the term.


I doubt that this shithead has much if any capacity for empathy or remorse to do what he's done, and I'm not going to care about offending actual psychopaths, or him, if it turns out he isn't.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 10, 2021)

tim said:


> If so, it's a reflection of how stupid he is because he left a trail of clues behind him. As to Met Omerta, no cop, however, corrupt would risk their own career and freedom trying to cover up a crime as high profile as this


but you are forgetting , most clever people don't join up , cos they aren't stupid , I have 2 close friends of the family who work in the Met  (I know... interesting conversations at xmas )and  im not at all surprised this wanker wasnt flagged up because they aren't the cleverest of people .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 10, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> but you are forgetting , most clever people don't join up , cos they aren't stupid , I have 2 close friends of the family who work in the Met  (I know... interesting conversations at xmas ) but im not at all surprised this wanker wasnt flagged up.


Yeh he'll have been the life and soul of the party.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Jul 10, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh he'll have been the life and soul of the party.


We talked about raving a couple of years ago at xmas , when we were allowed to do xmas , at the xmas table ,he said (no word of a lie) ' I was at the same parties as you, but I was on the other side of the door', that kinda killed the moment. Cunt but families eh ?


----------



## John Schofield (Jul 10, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> From the IOPC:
> 
> _Following today’s (Friday 9 July) guilty plea at the Old Bailey by Metropolitan Police Service Police Constable Wayne Couzens, who admitted murdering Sarah Everard, the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC) has issued an update on its linked conduct investigations.
> 
> ...


Can anyone explain why sharing an inappropriate graphic is (obviously quite rightly) treated as gross midconduct but those officers allegedly involved in failing to deal with Couzens sexual offences are only investigated at 'misconduct' level of without any misconduct notice issued at all? Am I missing something? Could it mean they are likley to face serious sanction outside the misconduct procedure?


----------



## platinumsage (Jul 10, 2021)

So it turns out his colleagues at the Civil Nuclear Constabulary had a nickname for him: The Rapist

This was due to concerns over how he behaved towards women.

You couldn’t make it up could you?


----------



## Argonia (Jul 10, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> So it turns out his colleagues at the Civil Nuclear Constabulary had a nickname for him: The Rapist
> 
> This was due to concerns over how he behaved towards women.
> 
> You couldn’t make it up could you?


Oh heavens above


----------



## Raheem (Jul 10, 2021)

"We were so concerned we gave him a nickname."


----------



## existentialist (Jul 10, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> It was a visceral reaction really. "Psychopath" does not mean "mad". Just the thought that he'd planned it made it seem even worse (if that's possible) in my mind when I read that he (allegedly) had.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that this shithead has much if any capacity for empathy or remorse to do what he's done, and I'm not going to care about offending actual psychopaths, or him, if it turns out he isn't.


That's all very well, and of course language is not immutable. But the danger is that we dilute these terms by doing this, and in blurring the distinction between ACTUAL psychopaths, and people we just think are, we make it easier for them to hide in plain sight.


----------



## Dystopiary (Jul 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That's all very well, and of course language is not immutable. But the danger is that we dilute these terms by doing this, and in blurring the distinction between ACTUAL psychopaths, and people we just think are, we make it easier for them to hide in plain sight.


Well it's not a term I'd ever use lightly. I don't think me typing that in anger is responsible for facilitating their evasion, rather, people who turn a blind eye to their disturbing behaviour (which yes of course they try to hide etc but... ) I do get what you're saying. Not going further with this cos I don't fancy a pile-on, nor do I want to detract from a really important thread.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 10, 2021)

existentialist said:


> That's all very well, and of course language is not immutable. But the danger is that we dilute these terms by doing this, and in blurring the distinction between ACTUAL psychopaths, and people we just think are, we make it easier for them to hide in plain sight.


Surely actual psychopaths have been hiding in plain sight throughout human history. Our rulers. Some worse than others, some with a charade of holiness, some seemingly popular. All, the successful ones, capable of breaking all moral rules when push comes to shove, of justifying the deaths of hundreds, thousands or millions of fellow humans and perpetrating all manner of crimes in the supposed interest of the state, or religion or an ideology. Even when we disapprove we treat it as normal.


----------



## baldrick (Jul 10, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> So it turns out his colleagues at the Civil Nuclear Constabulary had a nickname for him: The Rapist
> 
> This was due to concerns over how he behaved towards women.
> 
> You couldn’t make it up could you?


Where did you find that out?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 10, 2021)

I heard stuff at the time of the arrest and naming about his activities. He may well have been involved with street workers on a regular basis . He wasn’t unknown for this iykwim. The fuckibg bastard


----------



## Elpenor (Jul 10, 2021)

Hard to imagine a work environment where a nickname like that could be considered banter.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 10, 2021)

Or easy


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 10, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Where did you find that out?


It was reported in the Sun yesterday, and picked up by the Mirror Mail, Metro, Standard etc today.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 11, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Hard to imagine a work environment where a nickname like that could be considered banter.



Makes it easier to understand why he wasn't removed from his job though. Seems like his behaviour simply wasn't considered a problem.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 11, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Makes it easier to understand why he wasn't removed from his job though. Seems like his behaviour simply wasn't considered a problem.


I'm still reeling from this. Here we have a man with a documented history of sexual offending, whose behaviour around women is such that his colleagues nickname him "Rapist"...AND NOBODY STOPPED AND WENT "WTF?" OR DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT??

While I don't want to diminish the shitness of Couzens, I wouldn't put the enabling behaviours of his colleagues - or the police service culture that fosters them - very far behind what he did. They are almost as culpable - or should be.


----------



## Argonia (Jul 11, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'm still reeling from this. Here we have a man with a documented history of sexual offending, whose behaviour around women is such that his colleagues nickname him "Rapist"...AND NOBODY STOPPED AND WENT "WTF?" OR DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT??
> 
> While I don't want to diminish the shitness of Couzens, I wouldn't put the enabling behaviours of his colleagues - or the police service culture that fosters them - very far behind what he did. They are almost as culpable - or should be.


Well said


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 11, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'm still reeling from this. Here we have a man with a documented history of sexual offending, whose behaviour around women is such that his colleagues nickname him "Rapist"...AND NOBODY STOPPED AND WENT "WTF?" OR DID ANYTHING ABOUT IT??
> 
> While I don't want to diminish the shitness of Couzens, I wouldn't put the enabling behaviours of his colleagues - or the police service culture that fosters them - very far behind what he did. They are almost as culpable - or should be.



Absolutely culpable. They have a duty of care to the public, and manifestly failed in that.


----------



## Athos (Jul 11, 2021)

John Schofield said:


> Can anyone explain why sharing an inappropriate graphic is (obviously quite rightly) treated as gross midconduct but those officers allegedly involved in failing to deal with Couzens sexual offences are only investigated at 'misconduct' level of without any misconduct notice issued at all? Am I missing something? Could it mean they are likley to face serious sanction outside the misconduct procedure?



I think it means that the _prima facie_ case against them is that any failings were towards the less serious end of misconduct*. If anything, that suggests it's unlikely that they'd face e.g. any subsequent criminal proceedings.

*without knowing what they're accused of, it's impossible to assess whether or not that's right, given that it could be anything from an accidental and non-material amin error in the investigation process to a deliberate attempt at a cover up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2021)

John Schofield said:


> Can anyone explain why sharing an inappropriate graphic is (obviously quite rightly) treated as gross midconduct but those officers allegedly involved in failing to deal with Couzens sexual offences are only investigated at 'misconduct' level of without any misconduct notice issued at all? Am I missing something? Could it mean they are likley to face serious sanction outside the misconduct procedure?


Because they're more senior and so are protected by the system


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 11, 2021)

So if you go via this micky mouse Civil Nuclear Constabulary route, who train you on guns, you don't have to go to Hendon or one of those new recruit training courses?

Did he basically go from a job with guns to a police job with guns?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> So if you go via this micky mouse Civil Nuclear Constabulary route, who train you on guns, you don't have to go to Hendon or one of those new recruit training courses?
> 
> Did he basically go from a job with guns to a police job with guns?


You should change your name to loose bowels. If you'd read anything on this case you'd have seen he was a special cunt in Kent for years.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Because they're more senior and so are protected by the system



Yup. Can't let the brass take the fall for anything or the 'one dodgy cunt in an otherwise sound organisation' narrative rapidly starts to look more like 'cunts all the way down'.


----------



## cuppa tee (Jul 11, 2021)

Apologies for diversion, but wondering if the time may be right for changing
the title of this thread as things have moved on somewhat and thread has 
broadened out into related topics in the time since Sarah Everard ( riep ) first went missing.
editor  ?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You should change your name to loose bowels. If you'd read anything on this case you'd have seen he was a special cunt in Kent for years.


I've never come across anyone who spends 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week fishing for 'likes' on a niche internet message board.

It would be a disservice if people didn't mention, from time to time, you are wasting your life with this addiction.

I wish you well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 11, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I've never come across anyone who spends 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week fishing for 'likes' on a niche internet message board.
> 
> It would be a disservice if people didn't mention, from time to time, you are wasting your life with this addiction.
> 
> I wish you well.


If you've never come across anyone like that then wtf do you bring it up as tho it's some sort of killer point that trumps your own ignorance being pointed out again?


----------



## baldrick (Jul 11, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I've never come across anyone who spends 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week fishing for 'likes' on a niche internet message board.
> 
> It would be a disservice if people didn't mention, from time to time, you are wasting your life with this addiction.
> 
> I wish you well.


Can we not turn this into a stupid nitpicky personal beef thread, thanks.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You should change your name to loose bowels.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 11, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I've never come across anyone who spends 12-14 hours a day, 7 days a week fishing for 'likes' on a niche internet message board.
> 
> It would be a disservice if people didn't mention, from time to time, you are wasting your life with this addiction.
> 
> I wish you well.


No you don't, don't lie. You've made your views on the denizens of this board very clear.

And yet, somehow, you keep on coming back.

At least the people you choose to sneer at *like* being here. You, on the other hand, appear to hate it...but you're still here. Who's _really _the sneer-worthy one?


----------



## Nanker Phelge (Jul 11, 2021)

Talking of toxic banter


----------



## BusLanes (Jul 13, 2021)

Time for a proper review of the Met. Probably should do them regularly actually


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> Time for a proper review of the Met. Probably should do them regularly actually



I'll do it right now. Corrupt, racist, unfit for purpose; recommend liquidation with immediate effect.


----------



## tim (Jul 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'll do it right now. Corrupt, racist, unfit for purpose; recommend liquidation with immediate effect.


Time to defund the Dick


----------



## trashpony (Jul 14, 2021)

Thanks mods


----------



## Gramsci (Jul 14, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> Time for a proper review of the Met. Probably should do them regularly actually



I doubt that will happen.

Cressida Dick has just got rewarded for her great service over the years as a Coppers Copper.









						Cressida Dick becomes Dame Commander for public service
					

Latest London news, business, sport, showbiz and entertainment from the London Evening Standard.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




From leaving at end of her present reign as head of Met its now rumoured she might seek another term.

Given her track record I can't think of anyone less appropriate.

I'm appalled she has got an honour .

Stockwell , Clapham etc she is Teflon Dick.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 29, 2021)

Details of the kidnap being made public in court now. This is a sick sadistic copper cunt. Awful awful pig wanker


----------



## baldrick (Sep 29, 2021)

Yes agreed. Following a couple of news editors on Twitter. I felt chilled reading that witnesses had seen her being arrested.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 29, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Yes agreed. Following a couple of news editors on Twitter. I felt chilled reading that witnesses had seen her being arrested.


It should be a call to arms to the rest of us that, if we see a woman being manhandled, whoever's doing it, then it needs to be challenged. Presumably (ha!), in the light of this, a decent police officer would understand the need to remain until their colleagues arrived - I imagine the likelihood of uniformed police turning up to something like this and letting it go ahead unchallenged is (hopefully) pretty small, although it should be non-existent.

ETA: perhaps not just "a woman", but anyone.


----------



## Thora (Sep 29, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Yes agreed. Following a couple of news editors on Twitter. I felt chilled reading that witnesses had seen her being arrested.


It has definitely made me think I will be sure to stop, ask questions and take photos if I ever see someone being stopped or arrested now.  Particularly if it is a woman or child/teen or anyone vulnerable looking.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I doubt that will happen.
> 
> Cressida Dick has just got rewarded for her great service over the years as a Coppers Copper.
> 
> ...


If she presides over another death she will be installed in the lords, perhaps as baroness dick of stockwell


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 29, 2021)

That was a horrible read (read the Guardian online , not going to post it up here.) 

Fucking cunt.


----------



## keybored (Sep 29, 2021)

baldrick said:


> I felt chilled reading that witnesses had seen her being arrested.


They must be feeling absolutely gutted. Not the sort of thing I think I could ever get over. That fucker has damaged a lot of lives (beyond Sarah's family and friends).


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 29, 2021)

I wonder how much of the details senior police and politicians knew when they made the decision to have officers attack women at the vigil for 'covid breaches'. 

It makes me seethe.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 29, 2021)

Pretty grim that he actually used his police issue arrest tools and police issue belt as his rape/murder kit.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 29, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Pretty grim that he actually used his police issue arrest tools and police issue belt as his rape/murder kit.


I suspect that this has been mentioned because it is going to be a significant factor in his sentencing. "They" can hardly do otherwise, in the circumstances.


----------



## ash (Sep 29, 2021)

More women breaking Covid regulations


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 29, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I suspect that this has been mentioned because it is going to be a significant factor in his sentencing. "They" can hardly do otherwise, in the circumstances.


Will die in prison. I expect.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> From leaving at end of her present reign as head of Met its now rumoured she might seek another term.


No one else seemed appropriate perhaps? Seems like that was why she was given 2 more years.

Without stating the obvious I can't see the link between crazed pyschopathic policeman and whoever is head of the met.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 29, 2021)

Not sure why she gets all the flak over this either tbh but I guess it comes with the massive wage. She definitely had questions to answer over Stockwell though as she was gold iirc.


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Sep 29, 2021)

Maybe cos she is the Big Boss of an organisation thatis still very much trying to use the one bad apple line rather than admit to the systematic failings that allowed this guy to keep his warrent card despite multiple red flags. The mets statment today trying to distance themsleves from him was trite.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 29, 2021)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Maybe cos she is the Big Boss of an organisation thatis still very much trying to use the one bad apple line rather than admit to the systematic failings that allowed this guy to keep his warrent card despite multiple red flags. The mets statment today trying to distance themsleves from him was trite.


Well someone is definitely responsible for those failings but I doubt that info landed on her desk. She got away scot free from Stockwell though.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 29, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure why she gets all the flak over this either tbh but I guess it comes with the massive wage. She definitely had questions to answer over Stockwell though as she was gold iirc.



The flack is that local women and a few local Labour Cllrs tried to organise a vigil. Local Lambeth police were OK about this. 

Top of Met over ruled them. That would be her.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 29, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> No one else seemed appropriate perhaps? Seems like that was why she was given 2 more years.
> 
> Without stating the obvious I can't see the link between crazed pyschopathic policeman and whoever is head of the met.



Link is the policing if the vigil.


----------



## mx wcfc (Sep 29, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Link is the policing if the vigil.





Magnus McGinty said:


> Not sure why she gets all the flak over this either tbh but I guess it comes with the massive wage. She definitely had questions to answer over Stockwell though as she was gold iirc.


I saw something that said his nickname at his local nick was The Rapist.  He had a reputation.  His OB colleagues/management did fuck all.  That is unacceptable.  That reflects how coppers think.  That is a result of the culture in the Met.  She is responsible for that.  She got away with murder at Stockwell. Coppers follow her lead. 

Scum.  

His sentence will be whole life, and rightly so.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

The details are far, far more than I care to know, her poor fucking family who do want to know even though they will haunt them forever. Utter, utter cunt.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

Fingers crossed for a whole life order.  Never see his wife or kids again, and live in constant fear of other inmates.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> I saw something that said his nickname at his local nick was The Rapist.  He had a reputation.  His OB colleagues/management did fuck all.  That is unacceptable.  That reflects how coppers think.  That is a result of the culture in the Met.  She is responsible for that.  She got away with murder at Stockwell. Coppers follow her lead.
> 
> Scum.
> 
> His sentence will be whole life, and rightly so.


She's responsible because her entire schtick is sticking up for coppers. That's why obvious psychopathic scum like him keep their jobs and warrant cards. Heads should roll including hers.


----------



## tim (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Fingers crossed for a whole life order.  Never see his wife or kids again, and live in constant fear of other inmates.


Nobody should have to live in fear.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

tim said:


> Nobody should have to live in fear.


Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but think I'd make an exception for this scum.


----------



## marshall (Sep 30, 2021)

Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth? 

Genuine question, no direct experience myself and if anyone does deserve to live in fear for the rest of their natural lives, it's this sub-human. But will he suffer, really?


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 30, 2021)

He'll be housed on the special wing for his own protection, no question.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth?
> 
> Genuine question, no direct experience myself and if anyone does deserve to live in fear for the rest of their natural lives, it's this sub-human. But will he suffer, really?


They put filth on nonce wings anyway don't they? He'll probably be surrounded by other scum like him. 

As I get older and move inevitably to the right a little I'm struggling to find an argument against the death penalty for people who kill for pleasure when evidence is so clear. Not a lawyer though and wouldn't know exactly where to draw those lines.


----------



## marshall (Sep 30, 2021)

Exactly, truth is I can imagine him swaggering about with a bunch of other weirdos swapping sick fantasies within a couple of months. Hey-ho


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

Quite a lot of "bad apples" 









						At least 15 serving or former police have killed women in UK since 2009 – report
					

Majority of the women killed by former officers had been their partners, according to the Femicide Census




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth?


If it was then nonces and other rule 43 inmates wouldn't be segregated, would they


----------



## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth?
> 
> Genuine question, no direct experience myself and if anyone does deserve to live in fear for the rest of their natural lives, it's this sub-human. But will he suffer, really?


Someone will take a crack at him at some time, might even be one of the 43ers.
It's only ever reported outside when it's a high profile inmate.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth?
> 
> Genuine question, no direct experience myself and if anyone does deserve to live in fear for the rest of their natural lives, it's this sub-human. But will he suffer, really?


Not a myth; nonces and coppers especially loathed. Though he'll be with the other beasts, for his own protection.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 30, 2021)

He should rot in jail. But it's not a foregone conclusion that he'll get a whole life order. Joshua Rozenberg (I know I know) explains the law here and will update his blog after sentence is passed. Chilling stuff.








						Will killer die in prison?
					

Judge to decide whether Wayne Couzens will receive whole life order




					rozenberg.substack.com


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Ordinarily I'd agree with you, but think I'd make an exception for this scum.


We have to be better than them.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> They put filth on nonce wings anyway don't they? He'll probably be surrounded by other scum like him.
> 
> As I get older and move inevitably to the right a little I'm struggling to find an argument against the death penalty for people who kill for pleasure when evidence is so clear. Not a lawyer though and wouldn't know exactly where to draw those lines.



Hmm. Be wary of that "inevitable" move to the right. Some of the pro-death people out there often admit to wanting to dish out the severest of all penalties themselves. Have had repeated arguments with folks (online and irl) who are supporters of the death penalties. Some of them have pretty disturbing imaginations. One or two of them might even joy the deed.

A life in prison, with no chance of parole,  some would argue that's cruel/waste of tax payers money, etc. But the sheer barbarity of death penalties... what good does it do & who does it benefit?


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> We have to be better than them.


We are.  Abusing your power and an innocent victim's trust to rape and murder them, before desecrating their body makes someone much worse than a person who hopes such a scumbag gets a dose of 'prison napalm.'


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Not a myth; nonces and coppers especially loathed. Though he'll be with the other beasts, for his own protection.


We might classify all these people into one unit, but my guess is that being a copper on a wing with what he will almost undoubtedly see as people lower on the pecking order than him is not going to be a pleasant experience - he'll be with people that he will have developed a loathing and disdain for. Meanwhile, he will live every day in the knowledge that there are many, many more people elsewhere in the prison system who regard him with exactly the same loathing he has for his fellow secure wing inmates, and that one of them only has to get lucky once to make his life misery, or shorter.

TBH, I suspect that this one is likely to end up being a suicide case.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> We are.  Abusing your power and a victim's trust to rape and murder them, before desecrating their body makes someone much worse than a person who hopes they get a dose of 'prison napalm.'


🤷‍♂️


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I suspect that this one is likely to end up being a suicide case.


Hopefully not before a good many painful failed attempts.


----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Hmm. Be wary of that "inevitable" move to the right. Some of the pro-death people out there often admit to wanting to dish out the severest of all penalties themselves. Have had repeated arguments with folks (online and irl) who are supporters of the death penalties. Some of them have pretty disturbing imaginations. One or two of them might even joy the deed.
> 
> A life in prison, with no chance of parole,  some would argue that's cruel/waste of tax payers money, etc. But the sheer barbarity of death penalties... what good does it do & who does it benefit?


In my mind it's more like euthanasia. Some human beings are just too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the world, specifically men who commit murder rapes for pleasure. I suppose genuine life imprisonment achieves the same and is maybe an even worse punishment though.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> 🤷‍♂️



Disturbing stuff, for sure.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> In my mind it's more like euthanasia. Some human beings are just too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the world, specifically men who commit murder rapes for pleasure. I suppose genuine life imprisonment achieves the same and is maybe an even worse punishment though.



Maybe it is, life imprisonment. Every day having to contemplate the worthlessness of himself and what he did.

_Euthanasia_ is a mercy killing, though. A bit different to execution.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Hopefully not before a good many painful failed attempts.


I think that is the fundamental difference between us. Any additional suffering Couzens experiences will not reduce the suffering that Sarah Everard suffered before death, nor the suffering her loss has caused her family. I can't see any point - beyond pure revenge - why any suffering he incurs as a result of the state's action (or inaction) makes anything any better for anyone.


----------



## Cid (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> They put filth on nonce wings anyway don't they? He'll probably be surrounded by other scum like him.
> 
> As I get older and move inevitably to the right a little I'm struggling to find an argument against the death penalty for people who kill for pleasure when evidence is so clear. Not a lawyer though and wouldn't know exactly where to draw those lines.



Without wishing to go down a massive tangent, the US system at least utterly fails because of the appeals system... Essentially a decade or two of dragging families back through the court system, re-exposing everything etc. Keeping the names in the press. It fails in a bunch of other ways too of course, but even if you accept the unwillingness of medical professionals, the poor design of systems etc, the inevitable injustice, that factor remains. Of course you could say have less access to appeals, but then you have to trust the administration of justice in more marginal cases. And whether future governments might, say, extend execution for this kind of crime to executions for terrorism offences, killing an officer etc.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TBH, I suspect that this one is likely to end up being a suicide case.



This. Cunts like him won't have the balls to front up a long stretch. Dead within 5 years.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> In my mind it's more like euthanasia. Some human beings are just too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the world, specifically men who commit murder rapes for pleasure. I suppose genuine life imprisonment achieves the same and is maybe an even worse punishment though.




It's a death penalty, the method of execution is old age.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2021)

Hasn't he tried to kill himself once already whilst in custody? I suspect he will eventualy do it whilst in prison. Even if he doesn't get a whole life order. He's 48 so even 30 years will push him into his late 70's or early 80's before he gets  parole.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> In my mind it's more like euthanasia. Some human beings are just too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the world, specifically men who commit murder rapes for pleasure. I suppose genuine life imprisonment achieves the same and is maybe an even worse punishment though.


I can't imagine anything worse than life in prison with no chance of ever getting out.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 30, 2021)

Focus less on the fate of the abuser and more on the everyday  misogyny everywhere and police corruption that allowed it to happen


----------



## May Kasahara (Sep 30, 2021)

I simply don't have the words for this repellent man and what he did. Fuck these men and their fucking entitlement to our fucking bodies.

RIP Sarah. May your family find some peace, somehow


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This. Cunts like him won't have the balls to front up a long stretch. Dead within 5 years.


Wasn't there some kind of self-injury incident soon after his arrest? Banging his head against a wall, or something?

Leaving my professional hat firmly off, I think that he's probably got quite a strong sense of entitlement, and is probably completely disorientated by what has happened - "people like me don't get to account for our acts". I think that's going to fester away inside him, alongside the realisation of the total loss of control he has over his life, or anyone else (note all the manipulative attempts to get off the hook), and eventually the only thing he'll have left to control is his own mortality.

Professional hat back on, I do find myself wondering what happens to someone to make them become someone like this: to be able to cold-bloodedly, and in full public view, abduct a completely innocent person, and - intimately - commit those acts of violence upon them, without at any point during quite a long period of time stopping and wondering WTF he's doing...that's some pretty messed-up thinking.

We would do well to not just focus on retribution, but do some careful consideration about understanding people like this, if only so we can spot risky signs earlier and do something about them. And that extends to the ethos of the environment he worked in - how someone who was nicknamed "the rapist" and who got away with a number of sexual offences, despite that...these are things that need looking at deeply and urgently. Because he won't be the only person like that in the police force - I'd imagine that police work is very attractive to people like Couzens.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think that is the fundamental difference between us. Any additional suffering Couzens experiences will not reduce the suffering that Sarah Everard suffered before death, nor the suffering her loss has caused her family. I can't see any point - beyond pure revenge - why any suffering he incurs as a result of the state's action (or inaction) makes anything any better for anyone.


Maybe not for you, but for many revenge brings some comfort.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Focus less on the fate of the abuser and more on the everyday  misogyny everywhere and police corruption that allowed it to happen


Yes.  Absolutely.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Maybe not for you, but for many revenge brings some comfort.


To whom? You're not seriously suggesting that we should be advocating retribution on behalf of others, without even asking for their views?


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> To whom? You're not seriously suggesting that we should be advocating retribution on behalf of others, without even asking for their views?


No, I'm not. I'm merely disputing your assertion that Couzens suffering wouldn't reduce he family's suffering; it's quite possible that they'd take comfort from such justice being served.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Wasn't there some kind of self-injury incident soon after his arrest? Banging his head against a wall, or something?
> 
> Leaving my professional hat firmly off, I think that he's probably got quite a strong sense of entitlement, and is probably completely disorientated by what has happened - "people like me don't get to account for our acts". I think that's going to fester away inside him, alongside the realisation of the total loss of control he has over his life, or anyone else (note all the manipulative attempts to get off the hook), and eventually the only thing he'll have left to control is his own mortality.
> 
> ...


Sometimes I agree with John major's injunction to condemn a little more and understand a little less. But firm among the warning signs I'd look for would be membership of a police force, which coupled with membership of eg the territorial army ought to raise eyebrows


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> To whom? You're not seriously suggesting that we should be advocating retribution on behalf of others, without even asking for their views?


It's what they'd want presumably


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Professional hat back on, I do find myself wondering what happens to someone to make them become someone like this: to be able to cold-bloodedly, and in full public view, abduct a completely innocent person, and - intimately - commit those acts of violence upon them, without at any point during quite a long period of time stopping and wondering WTF he's doing...that's some pretty messed-up thinking.
> 
> We would do well to not just focus on retribution, but do some careful consideration about understanding people like this, if only so we can spot risky signs earlier and do something about them. And that extends to the ethos of the environment he worked in - how someone who was nicknamed "the rapist" and who got away with a number of sexual offences, despite that...these are things that need looking at deeply and urgently. Because he won't be the only person like that in the police force - I'd imagine that police work is very attractive to people like Couzens.


Have you read Mike Thomas's _Ugly Bus_? This murder made me think of it. Thomas is an ex-copper and this novel for rings horribly true in its depiction of group dynamics among hard nosed TSG crew. 





						Ugly Bus Review
					






					crimereview.co.uk


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Maybe not for you, but for many revenge brings some comfort.


I think that what is bothering me most about these responses of yours is the assumption that, because *you* would feel gratified by vengeful attacks on offenders like this one, it automatically follows that anyone else in their right mind would.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

bluescreen said:


> Have you read Mike Thomas's _Ugly Bus_? This murder made me think of it. Thomas is an ex-copper and this novel for rings horribly true in its depiction of group dynamics among hard nosed TSG crew.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Every few months the met swap cops in a carrier to try to prevent this sort of thing


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> We would do well to not just focus on retribution, but do some careful consideration about understanding people like this, if only so we can spot risky signs earlier and do something about them. And that extends to the ethos of the environment he worked in - how someone who was nicknamed "the rapist" and who got away with a number of sexual offences, despite that...these are things that need looking at deeply and urgently. Because he won't be the only person like that in the police force - I'd imagine that police work is very attractive to people like Couzens.


Twelve police officers are being investigated by the Independent Office for Police Conduct for gross misconduct over matters relating to the case.  🤬😡


----------



## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

Sentencing due at 11:30.

Some of the mitigation offered.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think that what is bothering me most about these responses of yours is the assumption that, because *you* would feel gratified by vengeful attacks on offenders like this one, it automatically follows that anyone else in their right mind would.


No, I don't assume that.

And I don't know whether or not revenge would help this particular family.  Which is why I haven't claimed it would. I was merely countering your claim that it wouldn't.  Something which you can't possibly know, and which appears to be you assuming that they feel they way you imagine you would in their shoes.

"*Any additional suffering Couzens experiences will not reduce* the suffering that Sarah Everard suffered before death, nor *the suffering her loss has caused her family.*"


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> Sentencing due at 11:30.
> 
> Some of the mitigation offered.



Barrister is an odd job in some ways you have to get up in court saying what you know is complete bollocks yet try and sound convincing about it.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2021)

£500 an hour can help with that.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> I saw something that said his nickname at his local nick was The Rapist.



That was when he worked for the civil nuclear constabulary, not the met.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> £500 an hour can help with that.


Do you think Couzens' barrister is on that? Who pays?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Barrister is an odd job in some ways you have to get up in court saying what you know is complete bollocks yet try and sound convincing about it.




Even weirder when you realise the person you are aiming this bullshit at used to be a barrister doing exactly the same crap...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 30, 2021)

Ex senior copper on BBC asked what should people do if they find themselves stopped by a copper with ID , on the street.

Response; Er ….comply basically


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Do you think Couzens' barrister is on that? Who pays?


Probably a lot less than that (aren't criminal cases rates set by our notoriously stingy Govt?) but I bet he's not on minimum wage either.  Probably doesn't have to pull a stint behind the other more socially  acceptable kind of bar to top it up.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 30, 2021)

The whole thing is so ugly. One of many appalling aspects is that the Met already knew some of the details of what Couzens had done when they policed the vigil on 13 March with their strong arm tactics. It's possible even some of the actual PCs on the ground knew details that had been passed around.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 30, 2021)

He was known for sleazy late night stuff I remember being told at the time. Sure the papers will bring it up soon


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

bluescreen said:


> The whole thing is so ugly. One of many appalling aspects is that the Met already knew some of the details of what Couzens had done when they policed the vigil on 13 March with their strong arm tactics. It's possible even some of the actual PCs on the ground knew details that had been passed around.


I wonder if their heavy-handedness on that vigil was born of a desire to nip in the bud any kind of social response to Couzens' atrocity. They could probably justify it to themselves as some kind of "preserving public order" thing, and I expect that's exactly what they did.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Probably a lot less than that (aren't criminal cases rates set by our notoriously stingy Govt?) but I bet he's not on minimum wage either.  Probably doesn't have to pull a stint behind the other more socially  acceptable kind of bar to top it up.


much less - for junior barristers criminal defence sometimes works out at less than the minimum wage once preparation, travel etc is taken into account. I'd imagine with high profile cases like this they'll make sure it's someone more senior, but it's still nothing like hundreds of pounds an hour.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> We would do well to not just focus on retribution, but do some careful consideration about understanding people like this, if only so we can spot risky signs earlier and do something about them. And that extends to the ethos of the environment he worked in - how someone who was nicknamed "the rapist" and who got away with a number of sexual offences, despite that...these are things that need looking at deeply and urgently. Because he won't be the only person like that in the police force - I'd imagine that police work is very attractive to people like Couzens.



Yep, the focus should be on men like Couzens and how they can be prevented from abusing their authority and from getting into positions of power in the first place.

The man himself should just be buried alive in the prison system and forgotten about, not given the notoriety of being the first person executed in Britain in 60 years.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

A combination of this and that other young copper who drunkenly tried to 'arrest' a woman walking home means that any woman encountering the police is going to be fucking terrified. 

As a young woman i was stopped twice in my car by the police while driving alone. Once my tax disc was a day out of date and the other 'just because' at 2am. On both occasions they deliberately scared me shitless and clearly got a kick out of it and there were no witnesses. Not bad apples, an absolute culture of misogyny.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, the focus should be on men like Couzens and how they can be prevented from abusing their authority and from getting into positions of power in the first place.
> 
> The man himself should just be buried alive in the prison system and forgotten about, not given the notoriety of being the first person executed in Britain in 60 years.


Perhaps we need something like the equivalent of a D-notice for people incarcerated for particular offences - they simply cease to exist in public discourse. I always found the stream of prison stories around the likes of the Yorkshire Ripper rather unpleasant, so maybe there needs to be an add-on to the whole life sentence that, essentially, the convicted individual becomes a non-person for the purposes of media coverage.


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Ex senior copper on BBC asked what should people do if they find themselves stopped by a copper with ID , on the street.
> 
> Response; Er ….comply basically


I also really feel for the woman who witnessed Sarah Everard being put into the police car in handcuffs and who reasonably enough assumed it was a standard arrest. She's probably wondering if she could/should have done something to prevent it, despite not having realised at the time anything was wrong.


----------



## scalyboy (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> Isn't retribution from other inmates a bit of a myth?
> 
> Genuine question, no direct experience myself and if anyone does deserve to live in fear for the rest of their natural lives, it's this sub-human. But will he suffer, really?


They get segregated with other sex offenders, bent cops and grasses. As Plumdaff said, a special wing, rule 43.

That’s not to say that other cons never come into contact with them, so they are sometimes vulnerable to attack - Ian Huntley was got at - but less so than if they were in general population. Sometimes they even get done by their fellow segregated - Ian Brady attacked a fellow child killer.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 30, 2021)

maomao said:


> In my mind it's more like euthanasia. Some human beings are just too dangerous to be allowed to exist in the world, specifically men who commit murder rapes for pleasure. I suppose genuine life imprisonment achieves the same and is maybe an even worse punishment though.


I personally know two people who would have been executed if the death penalty for these sorts of offences was in place. Both were found innocent on appeal, but one spent a year inside and the other two years. The false accusations and the time inside hung heavily on both, but at least they had a chance to clear their names and rebuild their lives. 

The death penalty also helps the filth, because once the person in the frame is dead, the case is solved. There's no inconvenient complaining, digging up old evidence or campaigns you have to deal with and you can climb the career ladder at the expense of some poor dupe that you stitched up.


----------



## marshall (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Maybe not for you, but for many revenge brings some comfort.



The family? As someone with two 20-something daughters living in London, I would find some degree of comfort in taking a blow torch to him if I was in their frankly unimaginable situation. Which I know reflects poorly on me, but whatever the parents want, or think helps in the grieving process is fine with me. Getting a bit medieval this


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 30, 2021)

I don't really give a shit what happens to him now. I want to know what is going to change so this doesn't happen again. And outside police culture too. I feel so fucking helpless and hopeless tbh.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I don't really give a shit what happens to him now. I want to know what is going to change so this doesn't happen again. And outside police culture too. I feel so fucking helpless and hopeless tbh.


All of this. The bogey man still exists, whatever we do with this particular one.


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

marshall said:


> The family? As someone with two 20-something daughters living in London, I would find some degree of comfort in taking a blow torch to him if I was in their frankly unimaginable situation. Which I know reflects poorly on me, but whatever the parents want, or think helps in the grieving process is fine with me. Getting a bit medieval this


This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.

I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact. 

(I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)


----------



## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.
> 
> I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact.
> 
> *(I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)*


You have, clearly.


----------



## scalyboy (Sep 30, 2021)

This horrendous case has got me wondering if Couzens had committed similar crimes before - it seems odd that he would go straight from flashing to rape and murder. Was this his first? Hopefully this is being looked into, but seeing as how it might reflect even more badly on the police if it was found that he was guilty of similar crimes, I do wonder.  
On the other hand, maybe he was caught after his one and only such crime. It does strike me as somewhat stupid of him - especially as a serving cop - not to think he would be traced by CCTV etc. Didn't he use his own name and credit card for the hire car? 
But maybe I shouldn't be speculating this way in public, as it keeps his name in the spotlight. I do agree with existentialist and others when they suggest he should just simply be buried in the prison system and forgotten.


----------



## marshall (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.
> 
> I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact.
> 
> (I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)



I know, I know, I apologise and I definitely get your point.


----------



## killer b (Sep 30, 2021)

The impact statement from Sarah Everard's mother is a very moving and eloquent piece of writing, is worth reading and reflecting on instead of fantasising over what will happen to her murderer in jail.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

Whole life.


----------



## izz (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> A combination of this and that other young copper who drunkenly tried to 'arrest' a woman walking home means that any woman encountering the police is going to be fucking terrified.
> 
> As a young woman i was stopped twice in my car by the police while driving alone. Once my tax disc was a day out of date and the other 'just because' at 2am. On both occasions they deliberately scared me shitless and clearly got a kick out of it and there were no witnesses. Not bad apples, an absolute culture of misogyny.


Have found them a tad predatory on a couple of the few occasions I've had to deal with them.


----------



## bluescreen (Sep 30, 2021)

The police should be turning over every inch of that woodland he bought.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

When I read what he did, just makes me want to cry. For what that poor woman went through, for what her family are going through and are sentenced to spend the rest of their lives going through, for the state of the fucking world my daughters are growing up in to. All too shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> This horrendous case has got me wondering if Couzens had committed similar crimes before - it seems odd that he would go straight from flashing to rape and murder. Was this his first? Hopefully this is being looked into, but seeing as how it might reflect even more badly on the police if it was found that he was guilty of similar crimes, I do wonder.
> On the other hand, maybe he was caught after his one and only such crime. It does strike me as somewhat stupid of him - especially as a serving cop - not to think he would be traced by CCTV etc. Didn't he use his own name and credit card for the hire car?
> But maybe I shouldn't be speculating this way in public, as it keeps his name in the spotlight. I do agree with existentialist and others when they suggest he should just simply be buried in the prison system and forgotten.


doesn't matter the field of human endeavour, be it building a house or committing a murder, you don't become that proficient without practice. contrary to popular belief, people very rarely rise to an occasion, they generally sink to the level of their training. now, it's possible to have some inklings of how other people have gone about things from tv shows. but considering the matter theoretically and carrying it out practically are two different things.

so tl; dr? i suspect there are other previous victims


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

bluescreen said:


> The police should be turning over every inch of that woodland he bought.


if you could trust them


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Sometimes they even get done by their fellow segregated - Ian Brady attacked a fellow child killer.



Which puts the lie to the 'prison inmates as agents of righteous vengeance' fantasy a bit doesn't it.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)




----------



## maomao (Sep 30, 2021)

He's got a while life sentence. Hopefully he doesn't appeal.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> This horrendous case has got me wondering if Couzens had committed similar crimes before - it seems odd that he would go straight from flashing to rape and murder. Was this his first? Hopefully this is being looked into, but seeing as how it might reflect even more badly on the police if it was found that he was guilty of similar crimes, I do wonder.
> On the other hand, maybe he was caught after his one and only such crime. It does strike me as somewhat stupid of him - especially as a serving cop - not to think he would be traced by CCTV etc. Didn't he use his own name and credit card for the hire car?
> But maybe I shouldn't be speculating this way in public, as it keeps his name in the spotlight. I do agree with existentialist and others when they suggest he should just simply be buried in the prison system and forgotten.


Seems unusual to suddenly commit a rape and murder aged 48 with no previous.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Whole life.


Good.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems unusual to suddenly commit a rape and murder aged 48 with no previous.



Seems he got away with a fair amount until then. Flashing at the very least.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Seems he got away with a fair amount until then. Flashing at the very least.


A responsible police force would be looking at all of the unsolved sexual assaults of any kind which he might have been in a position to perpetrate. Assuming it wasn't a different police officer


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 30, 2021)

They're not going to dig into this. They're not going to stop stop and search on young black men. Nothing changes.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems unusual to suddenly commit a rape and murder aged 48 with no previous.


He will be that creepy bloke whose patter makes everyone go, 'steady on, mate'. Women around him will feel uneasy but they wont know why until he gets 'a bit carried away' and then, well, i was drunk, he's a copper, who's going to believe me?

The conviction rate for rape is pathetic. He will have raped before. You have to be extremely dogged to get any sort of result for sexual assaults. THAT is the culture that needs to change.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

So it's a whole life sentence then with no release ever then. Good


----------



## moomoo (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> The impact statement from Sarah Everard's mother is a very moving and eloquent piece of writing, is worth reading and reflecting on instead of fantasising over what will happen to her murderer in jail.



They read this out on the radio just now. So moving and utterly heartbreaking. Gave me shivers.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems unusual to suddenly commit a rape and murder aged 48 with no previous.



There was a similar case in Canada around 10 years ago - a high-ranking 47-year-old military officer with no criminal record raped and murdered two women, including one under his command. The investigation found that over the previous few years, he had escalated to sexual assault after breaking into more than 80 homes and stealing the underwear of women and girls.


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> There was a similar case in Canada around 10 years ago - a high-ranking 47-year-old military officer with no criminal record raped and murdered two women, including one under his command. The investigation found that over the previous few years, he had escalated to sexual assault after breaking into more than 80 homes and stealing the underwear of women and girls.


Colonel Russell Williams. There's something especially disturbing about these sorts of things being done by people trained to keep their emotions in check (rather than the more 'typical' compulsive psychopaths).


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2021)

killer b said:


> Do you think Couzens' barrister is on that? Who pays?





> Barely 5ft 7in, Jim Sturman, QC, is a master of controlled verbal aggression. He is also the first barrister to earn £1 million from legal aid: £1,180,000 for the financial year 2004-05.











						My plumber gets £90 an hour. Young barristers can get £45 a day
					

“There are some very spiteful people in this profession. I’ve worked my backside off for 24 years and to have someone say it’s undeserved or a nice earner is...” A small, angry figure holds himself




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




I was thinking more generally tbh - tax barristers at the top can charge £1000+/hour. I admit I'm somewhat jaundiced - provincial barrister who gave me some fucking atrocious advice 20 years ago charged out at £250/hour.

Defendant pays (or I presume someone may be paying for them) as I understand it, and if found innocent can reclaim at legal aid rates.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Seems unusual to suddenly commit a rape and murder aged 48 with no previous.


Indeed. I don’t think you wake up one morning and decide to kidnap, rape, murder and desecrate someone as a first rung in the ladder.  

The reason the Met chief is facing questions is that this really does pose questions as to the ethos of the organisation, not least because of the way they handled the vigil etc, in fuller possession of the facts than we were at the time. And both of those issues do go to the top.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 30, 2021)

Nothing other than a life sentence could be handed out here. It was completely premeditated and the burning and dumping of the remains and destroying evidence further compounds this.

Goes to prove though just how thick you can still be to get so high up in the police. For all his efforts to hide his tracks, he was tracked by the most basic methods. Cell site mobile phone data to the site of the murder, and he used his own name and bank card to hire the rental car which got him caught on CCTV. Anybody with even a passing interest in crime knows this is beyond careless.


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## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

Sentencing remarks, a very hard read 



			https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Wayne-Couzens-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf


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## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Nothing other than a life sentence could be handed out here. It was completely premeditated and the burning and dumping of the remains and destroying evidence further compounds this.
> 
> Goes to prove though just how thick you can still be to get so high up in the police. For all his efforts to hide his tracks, he was tracked by the most basic methods. Cell site mobile phone data to the site of the murder, and he used his own name and bank card to hire the rental car which got him caught on CCTV. Anybody with even a passing interest in crime knows this is beyond careless.


In my experience the police are not known for their intelligence


----------



## Voley (Sep 30, 2021)

Just been hearing the testimony from her family. Really painful to hear.

I'm glad he'll never be released but, fuck me, the Met have some serious questions to answer.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Wasn't there some kind of self-injury incident soon after his arrest? Banging his head against a wall, or something?
> 
> Leaving my professional hat firmly off, I think that he's probably got quite a strong sense of entitlement, and is probably completely disorientated by what has happened - "people like me don't get to account for our acts". I think that's going to fester away inside him, alongside the realisation of the total loss of control he has over his life, or anyone else (note all the manipulative attempts to get off the hook), and eventually the only thing he'll have left to control is his own mortality.
> 
> ...


Men like this. Not people. Men.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2021)

The culture of not just enabling and protecting, but also nurturing this sort of man, persists. Elsewhere today the Met leadership has been found to have facilitated another sexual predator, who used his position as an undercover officer to target women, in a scathing Investigatory Powers Tribunal judgment:



> The Tribunal concluded that a number of factors established a breach of those positive obligations: the inadequacy of Kennedy’s training with regard to sexual relationships; the inadequate supervision and oversight; allowing the same principal cover officer to remain in place throughout the operation; *the failure of senior officers, who either knew of the sexual relationship, chose not to know or were incompetent and negligent *in not following up on clear signs; and the failure to take steps to prevent a sexual relationship from developing.







__





						The Investigatory Powers Tribunal - Judgments
					





					www.ipt-uk.com


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

skyscraper101 said:


> Nothing other than a life sentence could be handed out here. It was completely premeditated and the burning and dumping of the remains and destroying evidence further compounds this.
> 
> Goes to prove though just how thick you can still be to get so high up in the police. For all his efforts to hide his tracks, he was tracked by the most basic methods. Cell site mobile phone data to the site of the murder, and he used his own name and bank card to hire the rental car which got him caught on CCTV. Anybody with even a passing interest in crime knows this is beyond careless.


constable isn't a high rank in the metropolitan police


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> constable isn't a high rank in the metropolitan police



Sure but  he was serving as a firearms-trained parliamentary and diplomatic protection officer at the time of the killing. And he had previously been in the Civil Nuclear Constabulary since 2011


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

Pritler needs to go too, but we know that wont happen.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Hard to imagine a work environment where a nickname like that could be considered banter.


Welcome to engineering.

I asked a colleague at another company not to make rape jokes. I was superpolite about it. He called me a bitch and carried on.

With respect to remarks around the nickname some of his colleagues gave him, I was coming on here to post that there's no way he hasn't committed crimes, probably rapes, possibly others before.

You don't wake up one morning and decide tonight's the night for your plan to kidnap, rape and murder a young woman.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

I absolutely agree with you equationgirl. This is a pattern of behaviour. He will have been raping women for years.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I asked a colleague at another company not to make rape jokes. I was superpolite about it. He called me a bitch and carried on.


I had a similar experience at a very corporate  place I worked at,  this twat bloke was making rape jokes in the office and when I told him not to I was looked at like I was some kind of nutter. To my shame I didnt go to HR. I would do these days though.


----------



## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.
> 
> I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact.
> 
> (I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)


This.

I had to restrain my dad and brother from beating up the fella who'd beaten me for a year, then later, the cunt who tried to kill me.

I had several hard men of my acquaintance quietly offer to kidnap/torture/kill the one who stabbed me. All I wanted was for the violence to be over, and to move on. Although in both cases I wanted them to feel the same fear I had, and tbh I wanted them both to die (as in, just not be alive anymore), but I did not want to be the person who made that happen. The thought of it made me feel dirty, and terrible - no matter what they'd done, I'm still not a person who could be responsible in any way for taking a life, or for inflicting pain or fear on that level.

I'd far rather they just hadn't fucking done what they'd done. I didn't wanna double up on the violence.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> I had a similar experience at a very corporate  place I worked at,  this twat bloke was making rape jokes in the office and when I told him not to I was looked at like I was some kind of nutter. To my shame I didnt go to HR. I would do these days though.8


In my case it was a single instance - he did at least not make similar jokes again in my hearing.  I did not go to HR, as they had already proven themselves useless at best and just biased at worst. Plus the head of HR at the time had a been a site worker and rarely lifted a finger against such behaviour.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)




----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>



I'm not sure why she can't believe it tbh.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> Colonel Russell Williams. There's something especially disturbing about these sorts of things being done by people trained to keep their emotions in check (rather than the more 'typical' compulsive psychopaths).


I'd say that it was a very likely potential consequence of training people "to keep their emotions in check". Because, when you encourage - or coerce - people to repress their emotions, some of those feelings are going to emerge in less-expected directions. For example, people with a strong desire to control or coerce others are often people who have experienced emotional difficulties around control elsewhere in their lives.

Flinging labels like "compulsive psychopath" at people serves no good end - if we want to *prevent *stuff like this happening, rather than merely froth at the terribleness of it all, we need to step back from glib conclusions and labelling, and start looking at underlying causes, early warning signs, etc.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Men like this. Not people. Men.


Fine. Men like this.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

I just worry how many women had a close call with this guy, how many were raped, how many he almost killed and how many women he's killed before her. I would not be at all surprised if there wasn't something like Operation Anagram set up to investigate the wider picture.

This was too slick, too practised, too obvious. It was done in Brixton ffs. There were other people about.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

And the Russell Williams stuff was pretty sickening stuff too.


----------



## pogofish (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> I also really feel for the woman who witnessed Sarah Everard being put into the police car in handcuffs and who reasonably enough assumed it was a standard arrest. She's probably wondering if she could/should have done something to prevent it, despite not having realised at the time anything was wrong.



Years ago, I had an encounter with a plain clothes officer arresting a woman on the street - Well, she was bent across the bonnet of my car whilst being cuffed and was begging me to help her.

The officer was kind of occupied and unable to produce a warrant card but gave me their name and directed me to call the main station, where they confirmed (without giving any details) that this was a genuine arrest.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I just worry how many women had a close call with this guy, how many were raped, how many he almost killed and how many women he's killed before her. I would not be at all surprised if there wasn't something like Operation Anagram set up to investigate the wider picture.
> 
> This was too slick, too practised, too obvious. It was done in Brixton ffs. There were other people about.


I really do think there has to be a societal change whereby the automatic assumption that a police officer arresting someone is somehow beyond question shifts to a position whereby *any* exercise of coercion or control should be up for question. And if the police don't like that idea, perhaps they'd have been better off keeping their own house in order, rather than allowing someone to get away with behaviour that brings the whole edifice into disrepute.

I mean, presumably, dialling 999 and saying "I saw someone who appears to be a policeman bundling someone into a car" ought to be enough for them to fairly quickly ascertain whether it's legit or not. This should have never happened, and I'd be interested what police forces around the country are going to start doing (they've had enough time) to ensure it never happens again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>



The whole orchard is rotten


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I really do think there has to be a societal change whereby the automatic assumption that a police officer arresting someone is somehow beyond question shifts to a position whereby *any* exercise of coercion or control should be up for question.


I very much hope that shift has just happened.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I very much hope that shift has just happened.


I do not share your optimism. I think, if anything, they'll close ranks even more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I very much hope that shift has just happened.


I admire your optimism


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

I don't blame the couple who drove past and assumed it was a legit arrest by a plain clothes person. But what would have given me pause would have been a) a lack of a flashing dome light on the dashboard and b) his lack of partner, with possibly c) a lack of any police markings on his clothing, such as an over jacket or hiz viz, or even police written on a baseball cap.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, of course


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I do not share your optimism. I think, if anything, they'll close ranks even more.


Oh the cops will. But I hope society at large  has just had a wake up call.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I do not share your optimism. I think, if anything, they'll close ranks even more.


This


----------



## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I'd say that it was a very likely potential consequence of training people "to keep their emotions in check". Because, when you encourage - or coerce - people to repress their emotions, some of those feelings are going to emerge in less-expected directions. For example, people with a strong desire to control or coerce others are often people who have experienced emotional difficulties around control elsewhere in their lives.
> 
> Flinging labels like "compulsive psychopath" at people serves no good end - if we want to *prevent *stuff like this happening, rather than merely froth at the terribleness of it all, we need to step back from glib conclusions and labelling, and start looking at underlying causes, early warning signs, etc.



My point was more that impulsiveness/poor self-control is recognised as a part of psychopathy, whereas it seems all the more creepy when it's someone who appears able (possibly through training) to control themself, but chooses not to.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Athos said:


> My point was more that impulsiveness/poor self-control is recognised as a part of psychopathy, whereas it seems all the more creepy when it's someone who appears able (possibly through training) to control themself, but chooses not to.


🤷‍♂️


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


>



I watched an interesting documentary a while back about women in the Met and one described how she'd gone for a drink with several colleagues at the police social club after shift, and one known for sexual harassment picked her up and slammed her onto the snooker table. She said she was praying she wasn't raped there and then. She also never reported it.

That was the 1970s and I know things are supposedly different. But are they really?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I can't imagine anything worse than life in prison with no chance of ever getting out.



How about life in prison with no chance of getting out and you're stuck on the nonce wing.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How about life in prison with no chance of getting out and you're stuck on the nonce wing.


Solitary. For the whole sentence.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Solitary. For the whole sentence.



I don't give a shit what happens to him tbh. I want to know what will be done to make sure this never happens again.


----------



## moomoo (Sep 30, 2021)

I feel really sorry for his wife and kids as well. They’ve probably had to change their names and go into hiding. And I bet he was an abusive husband.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't give a shit what happens to him tbh. I want to know what will be done to make sure this never happens again.


Never? Oh it will, somewhere. Maybe not in the UK but in the US there's a boatload of cases involving police offices.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Bearing mind any copper you see in uniform after this is one who didn't burn said uniform in shame.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

I can't like your post, but I think you're right.


moomoo said:


> I feel really sorry for his wife and kids as well. They’ve probably had to change their names and go into hiding. And I bet he was an abusive husband.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Bearing mind any copper you see in uniform after this is one who didn't burn said uniform in shame.


That's..... unrealistic.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

moomoo said:


> I feel really sorry for his wife and kids as well. They’ve probably had to change their names and go into hiding. And I bet he was an abusive husband.


To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.


----------



## moomoo (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.



That’s sick.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Fine. Men like this.


It’s an important distinction. We can’t tackle male violence until we can name it.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.


That’s just weird and thinking back his wife was arrested early on in the investigation for aiding a crime and it was probably her visiting the scene that directly led to her arrest.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.


What the actual fuck ??? jesus


----------



## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.


That is utterly shocking isn't it? Just when you think it can't get any worse.


----------



## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> It’s an important distinction. We can’t tackle male violence until we can name it.


Absolutely. We have an epidemic of male-on-female violence, and only now are we starting to see tiny signs that it is going to be taken more seriously. I'm not holding my breath on it resulting in anything like a thorough examination of why some men behave in these ways, though.  I only know of one academic study into 'family annihilators', a crime that is doubling every year.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> It’s an important distinction. We can’t tackle male violence until we can name it.


This is so important. We need to know who the perpetrators are and why and there is still this big taboo about even saying the word.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 30, 2021)

sojourner said:


> Absolutely. We have an epidemic of male-on-female violence, and only now are we starting to see tiny signs that it is going to be taken more seriously. I'm not holding my breath on it resulting in anything like a thorough examination of why some men behave in these ways, though.  I only know of one academic study into 'family annihilators', a crime that is doubling every year.


although sadly, it’s not an epidemic as it’s always here and always happening


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> although sadly, it’s not an epidemic as it’s always here and always happening


Endemic


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

I think a copper committing this type of crime in this type of way should face a far far greater punishment than their crime normally incurs. Because a message needs to be sent to serving officers as a deterrent and spur for them to change their collective "us and them" view of themselves. Things have to change.


----------



## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I think a copper committing this type of crime in this type of way should face a far far greater punishment than their crime normally incurs. Because a message needs to be sent to serving officers as a deterrent and spur for them to change their collective "us and them" view of themselves. Things have to change.


Yep, and why not? Because when someone hurts a copper, the sentencing always seems to be harsher, doesn't it?  So it should work the other way round too, in fairness.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

sojourner said:


> Yep, and why not? Because when someone hurts a copper, the sentencing always seems to be harsher, doesn't it?  So it should work the other way round too, in fairness.


Very good point


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2021)

Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


An object lesson in the level of (un)awareness that exists around this kind of thing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Oh the cops will. But I hope society at large  has just had a wake up call.



Hopefully. Society is still bigger than the cops. Isn't it?


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


Just to confirm - he identifies himself as a Met police officer. Well, well...


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> To think he brought his kids to the murder site in the days after.


I know. This is not the behaviour of a novice.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

I have to say, having found the post in question, and seen how many people are seeking to either justify his position, or paint the outrage at what happened to Sarah Everard as somehow victimising of the police, that my hopes for any significant kind of organisational change have fallen even further.

And yes, the vast majority of the people being outraged at the, er, outrage are men.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Hopefully. Society is still bigger than the cops. Isn't it?


Yes, and I’m seeing people in civil society who’d normally be backing the cops now with “one bad apple” stuff coming to the realisation that it isn’t at all.  Like the Sky journalist whose tweet was quoted above:




She “can’t quite believe” what many of us have long known. But she’s coming to terms with the facts. That’s change.


----------



## nogojones (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I don't blame the couple who drove past and assumed it was a legit arrest by a plain clothes person. But what would have given me pause would have been a) a lack of a flashing dome light on the dashboard and b) his lack of partner, with possibly c) a lack of any police markings on his clothing, such as an over jacket or hiz viz, or even police written on a baseball cap.
> 
> Hindsight is a wonderful thing, of course


I've been stopped by plain clothes who were in a very tatty old Peugeot. They produced a warrant card and there was two of them, but they didn't have anything that was marked police and the car had nothing in or on it that would have stood out as a pig car.

I think more people do pay attention to police arrests these days and they're more inclined to video cops doing the dirty, but I think it's more a spillover from George Floyd and locally because of couple of people have been killed by the police recently. The more people who do this the more accountable the police will have to become.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 30, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I think a copper committing this type of crime in this type of way should face a far far greater punishment than their crime normally incurs. Because a message needs to be sent to serving officers as a deterrent and spur for them to change their collective "us and them" view of themselves. Things have to change.




The sentencing remarks make clear that the fact he was Old Bill and used that position to commit the offences (used police kit and more importantly, the authority that being a pig gave him to convince/coerce her to get in the car) is the reason for a whole life order rather than a fixed tariff.


----------



## Numbers (Sep 30, 2021)

sojourner said:


> This.
> 
> I had to restrain my dad and brother from beating up the fella who'd beaten me for a year, then later, the cunt who tried to kill me.
> 
> ...


That's horrible soj mate.

Sadly it (violence) was my default response just like your Dad and brother if anyone I loved was hurt in any way, no questions asked, and even more sadly I did exercise it quite extremely at times - it used to make me, or I thought it made me feel good about the situation but never those who I done it on _behalf_ of, which is a joke because like you they never wanted it.  It took a long time to change that process.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I have to say, having found the post in question, and seen how many people are seeking to either justify his position, or paint the outrage at what happened to Sarah Everard as somehow victimising of the police, that my hopes for any significant kind of organisational change have fallen even further.
> 
> And yes, the vast majority of the people being outraged at the, er, outrage are men.


Almost as though, if those people were to hold, say, a candlelit vigil, the police might take some kind of offence and seek redress?


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> That's horrible soj mate.
> 
> Sadly it (violence) was my default response just like your Dad and brother if anyone I loved was hurt in any way, no questions asked, and even more sadly I did exercise it quite extremely at times - it used to make me, or *I thought it made me feel good about the situation but never those who I done it on behalf of, which is a joke because like you they never wanted it*.  It took a long time to change that process.



Yes, I think it likely just adds to the victim's sense of powerlessness.


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> That's horrible soj mate.
> 
> Sadly it (violence) was my default response just like your Dad and brother if anyone I loved was hurt in any way, no questions asked, and even more sadly I did exercise it quite extremely at times - it used to make me, or I thought it made me feel good about the situation but never those who I done it on _behalf_ of, which is a joke because like you they never wanted it.  It took a long time to change that process.


Liked, for your honesty and insight


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## souljacker (Sep 30, 2021)

moomoo said:


> I feel really sorry for his wife and kids as well. They’ve probably had to change their names and go into hiding. And I bet he was an abusive husband.



Not necessarily. There are serial killer/rapist cases where the wife is happy and unaware of their husbands psycopathic tendencies as well as cases where the killers wife or mother are abusive. Sonia Sutcliffe for instance was considered the domineering one in the relationship and used to slap Peter about apparently.


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## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> That's horrible soj mate.
> 
> Sadly it (violence) was my default response just like your Dad and brother if anyone I loved was hurt in any way, no questions asked, and even more sadly I did exercise it quite extremely at times - it used to make me, or I thought it made me feel good about the situation but never those who I done it on _behalf_ of, which is a joke because like you they never wanted it. * It took a long time to change that process.*


I'm very glad you did though, in the end. And you've gained insight. I do understand that response - if anyone did anything to my daughter, I would probably feel the same way. But as you say - the person you did it on _behalf_ of did not want you to do it. I felt like I was going mad, trying to stop them, just in a tornado of violence and I couldn't stand it.


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> Almost as though, if those people were to hold, say, a candlelit vigil, the police might take some kind of offence and seek redress?


I think that falls well within the realms of possibility. And they would also do the very best they could - as they did with the previous vigil - to traduce the motives of those participating, and try to excuse their response on some ironic-if-it-wasn't-tragic pretext of public safety,. They would genuinely believe that such behaviour showed them to be different from the likes of Sarah Everard's persecutor. 

And the closing of ranks has already begun. Dick has Patel's support, and that's as much of an obligation not to change a fucking thing as there could possibly be.


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## bluescreen (Sep 30, 2021)

souljacker said:


> Not necessarily. There are serial killer/rapist cases where the wife is happy and unaware of their husbands psycopathic tendencies as well as cases where the killers wife or mother are abusive. Sonia Sutcliffe for instance was considered the domineering one in the relationship and used to slap Peter about apparently.





> From Fulford LJ's Sentencing remarks (my bold):
> Your wife and children, *who on all the evidence, are entirely blameless* will have to live with the ignominy of your dreadful crimes for the rest of their lives.





			https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/Wayne-Couzens-Sentencing-Remarks.pdf


----------



## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


That's just pathetic of S James, so out of touch as to be embarrassing.


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

From the sentencing remarks:


> The most important question in this sentencing exercise, therefore, revolves around a question of principle: if a police officer uses his office to kidnap, rape and murder a victim, is the seriousness of the offence exceptionally high, such that it ought to be treated in the same way as the other examples set out in paragraph 2(2). In my judgment the police are in a unique position, which is essentially different from any other public servants. They have powers of coercion and control that are in an exceptional category. In this country it is expected that the police will act in the public interest; indeed, the authority of the police is to a truly significant extent dependent on the public’s consent, and the power of officers to detain, arrest and otherwise control important aspects of our lives is only effective because of the critical trust that we repose in the constabulary, that they will act lawfully and in the best interests of society. If that is undermined, one of the enduring safeguards of law and order in this country is inevitably jeopardised. In my judgment, the misuse of a police officer’s role such as occurred in this case in order to kidnap, rape and murder a lone victim is of equal seriousness as a murder carried out for the purpose of advancing a political, religious, racial or ideological cause. All of these situations attack different aspects of the fundamental underpinnings of our democratic way of life. It is this vital factor which in my view makes the seriousness of this case exceptionally high. Self-evidently, it would need for the police officer to have used his role as a constable in a critical way to facilitate the commission of the offence; if his professional occupation was of little or no relevance to the offending, then these considerations clearly would not apply.


The police themselves would do well to take these comments very much to heart.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> That's just pathetic of S Fox, so out of touch as to be embarrassing.



Are you muddling names up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


there's a wrong un in there


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


Clueless, totally clueless and lacking of any and all empathy.
Copper.


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## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


He appears to have deleted this, if it’s recent.



			https://twitter.com/stuartjames85?s=21


----------



## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> He appears to have deleted this, if it’s recent.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/stuartjames85?s=21


He's only just done it then, if so, cos I looked it up about half an hour ago and it was still up there. He's probably been 'advised' to take it down.


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## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

Yep, just looked again, logged in, and it's been taken down.


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## ruffneck23 (Sep 30, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Not forgetting the hidden victims in all this
> 
> View attachment 290710


That tweet has disappeared , so I couldnt tell him to read the fucking room


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## Athos (Sep 30, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> That tweet has disappeared , so I couldnt tell him to read the fucking room


Someone else said exactly that before it was removed.


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## Cloo (Sep 30, 2021)

Numbers said:


> That's horrible soj mate.
> 
> Sadly it (violence) was my default response just like your Dad and brother if anyone I loved was hurt in any way, no questions asked, and even more sadly I did exercise it quite extremely at times - it used to make me, or I thought it made me feel good about the situation but never those who I done it on _behalf_ of, which is a joke because like you they never wanted it.  It took a long time to change that process.


I'm glad you have processed that.

I get so frustrated when I see guys going 'If that happened to my sister/girlfriend/wife etc I'd kill/fuck up the guy that did it' as if women should go 'Oh thanks for avenging me manly man!'

What women want and need is men to call out their mate/family member/colleague's misogynistic and abusive behaviour. Tell him the rape joke's not on, stop him following that lone  woman out of the pub, if he boasts about a clearly exploitative encounter with a woman tell him that's gross and wrong.


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

The Guardian front page right now is just a wall of crimes by men against women - Sarah Everard, Sabina Nessa, Kate Wilson (duped by undercover cop Mark Kennedy) and Elise Christie (speed skater who has revealed she was raped at 19).  How do women cope with this world of non-stop threats? Why are there so many savage, predatory men?


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## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Cloo said:


> I'm glad you have processed that.
> 
> I get so frustrated when I see guys going 'If that happened to my sister/girlfriend/wife etc I'd kill/fuck up the guy that did it' as if women should go 'Oh thanks for avenging me manly man!'
> 
> *What women want and need is men to call out their mate/family member/colleague's misogynistic and abusive behaviour. Tell him the rape joke's not on, stop him following that lone  woman out of the pub, if he boasts about a clearly exploitative encounter with a woman tell him that's gross and wrong.*


This in spades. And don't be that guy who apologises after the event to the woman his friend's been hassling (for example), excusing his behaviour because he's drunk or has just split up with his GF or whatever. Tell your friend it's unacceptable at the time and explain exactly why. This sounds like a small thing but it's really common (and very annoying) and would IME go some small way to changing the overall atmosphere.


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The Guardian front page right now is just a wall of crimes by men against women - Sarah Everard, Sabina Nessa, Kate Wilson (duped by undercover cop Mark Kennedy) and Elise Christie (speed skater who has revealed she was raped at 19).  How do women cope with this world of non-stop threats? Why are there so many savage, predatory men?


I can tell you how I cope, other women may differ.

I only use licensed black cabs, and note the number as I get in.

I don't walk around wearing headphones, day or night, and  I pay attention to my surroundings.

I let people know when I get home safely after I meet them.

Truth is, I could do a million different coping mechanism or strategies but at the end of the day, if a man wants to attack someone and he choose me, realistically there's unlikely to be much I can do. Fighting back might not an option, or be dangerous to me.

I like men for the most part, I work in a male dominated industry and try not to let the predators make me afraid of every man on the planet. But there's no foolproof way to avoid predators.


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?


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## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

Apologies if this has already been posted but it’s important and needs to be seen widely.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Prison doesn’t even seem to be a deterrent. Being an ex cop as well as a nonce didn’t deter him. Will probably get a rough ride of it.


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## sparkybird (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?


Read this book if you want to get really depressed. 

Men Who Hate Women: From Incels to Pickup Artists, the Truth about Extreme Misogyny and how it Affects Us All Men Who Hate Women: From Incels to Pickup Artists, the Truth about Extreme Misogyny and how it Affects Us All - Google Search


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## scalyboy (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> View attachment 290722
> 
> Apologies if this has already been posted but it’s important and needs to be seen widely.


This advice is well-intentioned but I fear it's unrealistic, as anyone who's been arrested or had any hostile dealings with the police will know. 'Resisting arrested calmly' could just get you tazered and/or flung to the ground and handcuffed. It might be possible if among a group of people who're bystanders, but otherwise I doubt it. Similarly with no.2, quite likely they'd just grab your phone. 

The burden should really be on the police now to issue guidance for male officers not to make arrests of women if unaccompanied by a colleague - but this won't happen either


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> Read this book if you want to get really depressed.
> 
> Men Who Hate Women: From Incels to Pickup Artists, the Truth about Extreme Misogyny and how it Affects Us All Men Who Hate Women: From Incels to Pickup Artists, the Truth about Extreme Misogyny and how it Affects Us All - Google Search



I'd rather not know about what men do after they become predators. Trying to be constructive by thinking about dealing with the root causes of their behaviour.


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## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> *I'd rather not know about what men do after they become predators*. Trying to be constructive by thinking about dealing with the root causes of their behaviour.


Nice you have the choice. I'd rather not experience it.

(Not all of it, thank God, but you know some of us (women in general?) can't just opt out of this.)


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## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?


I think sometimes these men are 'othered' when people say things like, 'a real man doesn't beat up women,' because the venn diagram of 'people who beat up women' and 'men' has a pretty fucking big overlap, actually. But yeah, I do think it's about childhood, culture, role models, and of course the patriarchy makes a less than discreet appearance in all of these, but your post is quite positive actually, how can we change the culture? Women, especially feminists, have been trying since time immemorial. It's mainly like hitting your head against a wall, unfortunately. Just look at some of the threads here!


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## sojourner (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?


These are the questions that need a proper examination/investigation/studies. It's not happening, each horrific crime against women is seen as individual, rather than as part of a whole, a pattern, an entrenched behaviour, so nothing ultimately gets done about preventing it in the first place. It's obviously tied up with how men are raised, our society, toxic masculinity, patriarchy etc, it's not just one thing. 

I feel like screaming from the top of a very high building WHY WON'T YOU DO SOMETHING?


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## sparkybird (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'd rather not know about what men do after they become predators. Trying to be constructive by thinking about dealing with the root causes of their behaviour.


The book is more about how men get drawn into that world, at many different levels and what we should be doing to prevent it (at the moment fuck all). Basically men are radicalised in the same way as terrorists are but of course even though thousands of women die at the hands of men all the resources are put into counter terrorism. It sucks and shows just how low on the priority women actually are
ETA some of the interviews she did with school kids are frankly shocking and shows how pervasive it is


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

I read that he was into violent porn, which I think is illegal but perhaps not being investigated in the same way as child porn.


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

sojourner said:


> These are the questions that need a proper examination/investigation/studies. It's not happening, each horrific crime against women is seen as individual, rather than as part of a whole, a pattern, an entrenched behaviour, so nothing ultimately gets done about preventing it in the first place. It's obviously tied up with how men are raised, our society, toxic masculinity, patriarchy etc, it's not just one thing.
> 
> I feel like screaming from the top of a very high building WHY WON'T YOU DO SOMETHING?


I feel exactly the same. There ought to be a never-ending national programme to work on the root causes. But there's nothing. Nothing at all.


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## Chilli.s (Sep 30, 2021)

When I was a kid I thought that equality in all decision making process should be made balanced between sexes. ie. a male judge in court had to also have a female judge on the bench at the same time, equal numbers of m/f MPs, councillors etc etc. Yeah, it's a child's theory, but not without some merit

It is all about money and power, always


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?


I am not the person with expertise in this area, plus there's no single way to approach this.

I understand sometimes it's learned behaviour, seeing dad only objectifying women especially mum and sisters or daughters, sometimes it can be mental health issues - Sutcliffe thought he was cleansing the world of prostitutes (at least in part) although started attacking women who were clearly not. The Madonna/Whore complex crops up a lot.

Bundy was in part replaying revenge against a former girlfriend, but had abuse in his childhood.

Sometimes, it is clinical psychopathy and experts describe them as 'born without a conscience' or 'born broken'. Nothing, no intervention, can fix their underlying pathology.

I am no expert, this is just off the top of my head.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> When I was a kid I thought that equality in all decision making process should be made balanced between sexes. ie. a male judge in court had to also have a female judge on the bench at the same time, equal numbers of m/f MPs, councillors etc etc. Yeah, it's a child's theory, but not without some merit
> 
> It is all about money and power, always



We had Thatcher as PM. And that was great…


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> 'Resisting arrested calmly' could just get you tazered and/or flung to the ground and handcuffed. It might be possible if among a group of people who're bystanders, but otherwise I doubt it.


I know, having been arrested. And I wouldn’t have posted it had it not come from a woman’s organisation. But sadly, the cops aren’t going to change. So society is going to have to learn to stop trusting the police by default, and learn some tactics to use to do that. If even people (and I’m including men here) manage to phone their emergency contacts that would be an improvement.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I know, having been arrested. And I wouldn’t have posted it had it not come from a woman’s organisation. But sadly, the cops aren’t going to change. So society is going to have to learn to stop trusting the police by default, and learn some tactics to use to do that. If even people (and I’m including men here) manage to phone their emergency contacts that would be an improvement.



I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request some kind of witness to an arrest. Do lone officers even make arrests? He relied on her deference and trust to abduct her.


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## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t think it’s unreasonable to request some kind of witness to an arrest. Do lone officers even make arrests? He relied on her deference and trust to abduct her.


'While police officers often patrol in pairs, whether on foot or in cars, this is not always the case. In 2018 the Met recorded 375,760 instances of “single crewing”.'

Presumably includes arrests but I haven't read the doc linked to.









						Women given mixed advice on checking police identity after Sarah Everard murder
					

Met says plainclothes officers will no longer patrol on their own as force admits it needs to do more to earn trust




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cloo (Sep 30, 2021)

I think the main way to stop predators is to ensure society teaches and shows that women are people. Not teases, whores, slurs, liars, manipulators, crazy,  complicated, contrary, hard to understand.  And they don't owe any man anything.


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## not-bono-ever (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> He appears to have deleted this, if it’s recent.
> 
> 
> 
> https://twitter.com/stuartjames85?s=21


Police have experience of changing or losing evidence. Lots of experience


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> 'While police officers often patrol in pairs, whether on foot or in cars, this is not always the case. In 2018 the Met recorded 375,760 instances of “single crewing”.'
> 
> Presumably includes arrests but I haven't read the doc linked to,
> 
> ...



Respect for the rapid research!


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Respect for the rapid research!


Hah, I'd just read that when I saw your post . I was quite surprised as I thought they had to go out in pairs but evidently not.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 30, 2021)

So what is to be done ? Still comes down to the usual recruit cohort are most likely the ones that really should not be given any kind of authority anywhere.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> Hah, I'd just read that when I saw your post . I was quite surprised as I thought they had to go out in pairs but evidently not.



Yeah that was my assumption but more for the protection of officers rather than the arrestees, ironically.


----------



## scalyboy (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Do lone officers even make arrests?


Yes, I've seen it done. Long time ago. Plain clothes cop arresting an alleged drug dealer, was with a few friends at the time, weren't sure what was going on so we queried it. Can't recall if we'd asked to see his number / warrant card, but if so I expect he'd told us to piss off. These days you could take a photo, if he was in the process of an abduction maybe that would deter him?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Yes, I've seen it done. Plain clothes cop arresting an alleged drug dealer



They probably have back-up that remain hidden. But for the arrestee yeah it’s basically a lone arrest.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> I know, having been arrested. And I wouldn’t have posted it had it not come from a woman’s organisation. But sadly, the cops aren’t going to change. So society is going to have to learn to stop trusting the police by default, and learn some tactics to use to do that. If even people (and I’m including men here) manage to phone their emergency contacts that would be an improvement.











						Women given mixed advice on checking police identity after Sarah Everard murder
					

Met says plainclothes officers will no longer patrol on their own as force admits it needs to do more to earn trust




					www.theguardian.com
				




Pretty much every police response in that piece says "just carry on as usual". There seems to be no acknowledgement - let alone remorse - that a police officer was able to abuse his position in this way. And THAT is just enabling behaviour for those police officers - and let's face it, this one was not unique - who do choose to abuse the privileges afforded to them in their work.

If ever "root and branch" change were needed, this is an indication as to why. This isn't about apples, rotten or otherwise.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Yes, I've seen it done. Long time ago. Plain clothes cop arresting an alleged drug dealer, was with a few friends at the time, weren't sure what was going on so we queried it. Can't recall if we'd asked to see his number / warrant card, but if so I expect he'd told us to piss off. These days you could take a photo, if he was in the process of an abduction maybe that would deter him?



You’ve lengthened your reply. Couzens had some neck given he abducted Sarah Everard on a busy street, and impulsively. This action ultimately got him caught but didn’t save her from her fate. The left take a keen interest in things like arrests but does wider society? The eye witnesses assumed it was just, as did Sarah. 
Cops tend to be hostile to being filmed, boot on the other foot etc.
Of course this is only part of the discussion as more often than not opportunistic stranger abduction of women tend not to be the police. And more common are attacks that don’t even involve planning and where the perpetrators are known.


----------



## kittyP (Sep 30, 2021)

Sue said:


> This ^ kind of thing seems to me to be part of the problem -- men (I'm guessing you're male marshall?) coming over all violent and vengeful when it comes to protecting their womenfolk or defending their honour or whatever.
> 
> I don't want men to protect me or get all violent over it, I just don't want this shit to happen. Which involves preventing this stuff from happening in the first place rather than reacting violently after the fact.
> 
> (I'm not sure I've expressed myself very well here but hopefully you get my point.)



You have expressed yourself very well and I absolutely agree.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

kittyP said:


> You have expressed yourself very well and I absolutely agree.


It's why all the retributive bullshit whenever something like this comes up is so wearing - suddenly, the agenda shifts from prevention, and victims, and becomes all about the perpetrator. It's the same with perpetrators of child sexual abuse...and as a survivor of that, I can say that it is horribly diminishing of those affected by the offence, even if it dressed up as some sort of misguided solidarity with the victim, or the group being victimised. We/they/you don't need pitchforks and chest-beating, gorilla style.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Women given mixed advice on checking police identity after Sarah Everard murder
> 
> 
> Met says plainclothes officers will no longer patrol on their own as force admits it needs to do more to earn trust
> ...


I do recall at least one case here in Scotland involving a police officer taking advantage of his position to rape at least two vulnerable women. It's not isolated, and from what I read this man certainly seemed like he was exercising his right to do as he pleased because he was police.

Police officer gets 12 years for rape (from 2001)

Ex-police officer who raped three women told to 'burn in hell' (2019)

And in case it hadn't been posted recently here, this sobering article from the Guardian written less than three weeks after Sarah was abducted:









						Revealed: the grim list of sex abuse claims against Metropolitan police
					

Nearly 600 Scotland Yard employees faced claims of sexual misconduct over six years, as pressure grows on ‘misogynist’ force




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

That's over 600 Met polic staff involved in sexual misconduct claims.

Just the Met.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's why all the retributive bullshit whenever something like this comes up is so wearing - suddenly, the agenda shifts from prevention, and victims, and becomes all about the perpetrator. It's the same with perpetrators of child sexual abuse...and as a survivor of that, I can say that it is horribly diminishing of those affected by the offence, even if it dressed up as some sort of misguided solidarity with the victim, or the group being victimised. We/they/you don't need pitchforks and chest-beating, gorilla style.



There’s definitely a school of thought within feminism / survivor narratives of white knighting of this kind but I could point to communities where the school of thought is absolutely about retribution for things like crimes against women/children. And it isn’t a male only phenomenon. Some crimes should be considered beyond the pale and I don’t think those taking that stance should be criticised particularly. When we talk about deterrents, it shouldn’t only be owned by the state.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> There’s definitely a school of thought within feminism / survivor narratives of white knighting of this kind but I could point to communities where the school of thought is absolutely about retribution for things like crimes against women/children. And it isn’t a male only phenomenon. Some crimes should be considered beyond the pale and I don’t think those taking that stance should be criticised particularly. When we talk about deterrents, it shouldn’t only be owned by the state.


But by the time we're talking about crimes, and whether or not they are beyond the pale, we've missed the main opportunity - that of reducing the likelihood of the crime occurring in the first place, by better detection and dealing with dubious earlier instances (as per this case), but even more so by looking at - and acting on - the likely influences that bring people to the position where they can contemplate committing such crimes.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Confirmed now that the murderer will never be released.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> But by the time we're talking about crimes, and whether or not they are beyond the pale, we've missed the main opportunity - that of reducing the likelihood of the crime occurring in the first place, by better detection and dealing with dubious earlier instances (as per this case), but even more so by looking at - and acting on - the likely influences that bring people to the position where they can contemplate committing such crimes.



I absolutely agree with that. Was just countering the view that this stuff should be left to law and order which is ironic given who perpetrated the crime and that the threat of vigilantism is somehow toxic.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> You’ve lengthened your reply. Couzens had some neck given he abducted Sarah Everard on a busy street, and impulsively. This action ultimately got him caught but didn’t save her from her fate. The left take a keen interest in things like arrests but does wider society? The eye witnesses assumed it was just, as did Sarah.
> Cops tend to be hostile to being filmed, boot on the other foot etc.
> Of course this is only part of the discussion as more often than not opportunistic stranger abduction of women tend not to be the police. And more common are attacks that don’t even involve planning and where the perpetrators are known.



If filming cops by way of a deterrent you should state loudly and often that you are livestreaming the footage, even if you're not.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> If filming cops by way of a deterrent you should state loudly and often that you are livestreaming the footage, even if you're not.



And even better, be actually doing it, else they think up some reason to confiscate your camera/phone.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I read that he was into violent porn, which I think is illegal but perhaps not being investigated in the same way as child porn.


Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.

Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.

I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.

All of that stuff. It’s the steady drip drip of objectification, of thinking of women as not quite human. Of othering us. Everyday sexism is the bedrock upon which men like Couzens rise.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.
> 
> Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.
> 
> ...



I don’t have any mates like that. And I stand up to misogyny the same way I do fascists or racists. But clearly I’m in the minority. I drink with people who support that stance. Birds of a feather. 
But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> And even better, be actually doing it, else they think up some reason to confiscate your camera/phone.



If you actually livestream it you could be incriminating someone else though. And you can't edit the footage to anonymise people.

You can call out shoulder numbers, time and location etc; but only stuff related to the police and what they're doing.


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## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I don’t have any mates like that. And I stand up to misogyny the same way I do fascists or racists. But clearly I’m in the minority. I drink with people who support that stance. Birds of a feather.
> But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.


What, like feminism you mean? No, I don't think that will ever catch on.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> If you actually livestream it you could be incriminating someone else though. And you can't edit the footage to anonymise people.
> 
> You can call out shoulder numbers, time and location etc; but only stuff related to the police and what they're doing.



Well we were discussing abductions rather than political events but I agree completely on the latter.


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> What, like feminism you mean? No, I don't think that will ever catch on.


Although tbf...


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Violent porn is mainstream. Women getting slapped, choked, forced is what most porn is about nowadays.
> 
> Women have been killed so frequently by men using the ‘rough sex gone wrong’ euphemism that there has been a law introduced against it.
> 
> ...


I get that. The zero tolerance thing, I mean. I've steadily become the more po-faced one who, when a "dodgy" joke is cracked, will straight-facedly point out why I don't think it's funny, etc. It has been a long time since I've heard anyone in my orbit make any of the more violent statements you describe, but if they did, I'd be starting out with "Seriously? Fuck off with that attitude.", and it wouldn't end there.

Anecdote: my 17 year old step-granddaughter came to visit one sunny Saturday, and someone was heard to make some kind of sexual remark about her. He was immediately accosted by at least two of the people I know and put very clearly in the picture. I am glad that things like that do happen, even if they need to happen more.

As far as objectification goes, I had to really hammer home to my ex that it really wasn't helpful to always focus on SGD's appearance ("oh, you look so beautiful") - not for her own emotional wellbeing, nor in terms of the messages that kind of thing sends, particularly the conflation of affection and objectification in her mind. It's an insidious problem, which inevitably ends up playing out in the behaviours of men, but we all need to be rooting it - and calling it - out, whoever's perpetrating it. 

The thing I've found is that, once you've had the courage to nail your colours to the mast, it really does start to make a difference. There will always be the diehards, giving it the "oh, better not say anything, existentialist's around" thing, but I think that there's always a much more easily-swayed middle ground who are probably quite uncomfortable with the sexist rhetoric, but don't quite have the courage of their convictions. Any of us can be the one to take the first step.

Apologies, I think we're heading off into debate, which probably warrants a separate thread. </derail>


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> What, like feminism you mean? No, I don't think that will ever catch on.



Targeting Incels  etc? Totally on my radar


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> But maybe there needs to be an actual anti-misogyny movement like anti-fascism. Would be difficult to participate in given I don’t think passive actions work and aggressive actions with male involvement would be frowned upon.


That's a great idea. Huge scope for educational aspects, too. "How to call out your sexist mates", etc.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Well we were discussing abductions rather than political events but I agree completely on the latter.



Same basic stuff applies.

E2a: anyway, derail over.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> What, like feminism you mean? No, I don't think that will ever catch on.



Have you heard of Andrew Tate? I have.


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## RainbowTown (Sep 30, 2021)

The utter, brutal terror that this poor woman must have went through in her final hours is hard to fathom. Reading about it is just gut-wrenching.

I  truly hope her family find some kind of peace.

Just as I hope her scumbag killer rots in hell when his time comes.


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## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Have you heard of Andrew Tate? I have.


No. Why?


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> No. Why?



Because Incels are on my radar but not yours.


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## little_legs (Sep 30, 2021)

No punishment imposed on this man will bring Sarah Everard back to her parents, extended family and friends. I get that.

But let me tell something about retributive justice. When I was 10 years old, I was the smallest student in my class. I knew my height and my wanting to keep to myself were the reasons why I got picked on by big boys in my class. Once, a boy much bigger than I was, who wasn’t known for being violent or doing any dumb shit, took my school bag and threw all my schoolbooks on the classroom floor while the class was waiting for teacher, so as it goes all kids, including myself, were chatting to other students. When I said _hey, these are my books, why are emptying my bag and throwing my books on the floor!_ he said _shut up, just pick them up before the teacher gets here._ Naturally, I got up and began collecting the books off the floor, and as I was putting them on the desk, he decided to throw them even further. At that point, the whole thing became a spectacle. None of the kids had stepped in, worse yet some other boys joined in the book throwing. When I said _quit doing this, I will report you_ he just laughed. As he was letting out his laughter, he threw one of the books again and its hardcover corner ended up piercing my head. It hurt like hell. Because I was too worried for being disciplined by the teacher, I grabbed my bag and resumed collecting books and stuffing them in my bag. Lo and behold, the teacher walked in and said _why are your books all over the classroom floor?_ When I told her that the boy in question threw them and other kids joined in, so not all of the books on the floor were mine, she said _you made the mess, you clean it_. When I protested she told me to zip it. None of the kids had stepped in.

Once I collected all of the books, I was told to leave the classroom. I was furious. I walked over to my 15 year old brother’s class and asked to speak to him. I told him what happened, of course I was in tears and then I said _can you check my head?_ When he untied my hair, he said I was bleeding. I said _can you help me?_ He understood that I was hurt, humiliated, and defenseless. We walked to the classroom that I was told to leave. We walked in and before the teacher could say a word my brother said _my kid sister was assaulted here and you failed to protect her_. Then he took me by my hand, we both walked up to the boy and my brother said _do you know she is bleeding from her head? Is this funny to you? Do you think it makes you cool to pick on someone smaller than you?_ The boy started to cry. My brother said you are going to ask her for forgiveness and then she will decide what she wants to do. The boy said he was sorry. I started to cry. My brother said _don’t cry, you’ve done nothing wrong_. The teacher began to yell _leave the classroom now!_, my brother held my hands and said _do you want to do something?_ I said _yes_, I took a book out of my bag and hit the boy with all the might and fury I had in my body. The teacher screamed _you’ll both be disciplined!_ My brother then said _if you ever raise a finger against my sister, it’ll be me hitting you next time._ I was jubilant.

Having read this thread, I realise that some of you will find my brother's and my actions abhorrent. But after this incident, I’ve never had a single issue with any of the boys at school. Although this didn't stop me being kicked by a police man in the stomach at 17 when I tried to stop him from beating a homeless man. This didn't stop me from being attacked by a drunk taxi driver at 20.

Yes, I know, no punishment imposed on this man will bring Sarah Everard back.


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## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Because Incels are on my radar but not yours.


I'm going to assume you're joking but this is in particularly poor taste. Please don't do this on this thread.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> I'm going to assume you're joking but this is in particularly poor taste. Please don't do this on this thread.



It was in the context of organising against misogyny in the same way we would fascists that some suddenly scoffed at. I was expressing that I do watch misogynists in the same way I do fascists. Not sure why it’s in poor taste but happy to abandon that line of discussion if it causes offence and I apologise for offending you.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> It was in the context of organising against misogyny in the same way we would fascists that some suddenly scoffed at. I was expressing that I do watch misogynists in the same way I do fascists. Not sure why it’s in poor taste but happy to abandon that line of discussion if it causes offence and I apologise for offending you.


With the radical/far right using misogyny to attract recruits it makes sense to act as you suggest. Clearly as trashpony says there should be a zero tolerance policy and people coming out with this bullshit should be pulled up on it. But as you say with your reference to incels misogyny is becoming a rallying point around which forces of reaction gather.


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

American porn has had a massive effect. Can anyone remember a time when it was not normal entertainment for men to hurt and degrade women? Outside of porn, it's fairly normal for American men to describe all women as whores who only want men for their money. There's so much American culture which portrays marriage as a financial transaction. Maybe the UK is as bad?  So many men think that you have to pay for sex in a relationship, so you might as well just buy it from a prostitute.  Love and friendship and companionship are not part of the equation.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> American porn has had a massive effect. Can anyone remember a time when it was not normal entertainment for men to hurt and degrade women? Outside of porn, it's fairly normal for American men to describe all women as whores who only want men for their money. There's so much American culture which portrays marriage as a financial transaction. Maybe the UK is as bad?  So many men think that you have to pay for sex in a relationship, so you might as well just buy it from a prostitute.  Love and friendship and companionship are not part of the equation.


Fuck American porn and look at the way cop shows from pretty much every country focus on the violent deaths of women for salacious entertainment. Beamed into houses across the UK on free channels almost every night of the week. You can sit there with your partner watching people discuss brutal killings of young women while eating your tea, it's socially acceptable


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> With the radical/far right using misogyny to attract recruits it makes sense to act as you suggest. Clearly as trashpony says there should be a zero tolerance policy and people coming out with this bullshit should be pulled up on it. But as you say with your reference to incels misogyny is becoming a rallying point around which forces of reaction gather.



The Incels are a subset of fascism and a stream into it. Andrew Tate is a YouTube talking head promoting the disrespect of women and appeared on Big Brother so not simply a nobody. 
He sells Incel courses on his website.
I’m slightly perturbed that my sharing of this kind of information leads to accusations of bad faith on my part.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

I do like how the feminists on here are hard headed though. It’s fair enough.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 30, 2021)

i’m sure they are swooning with delight at your approval


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> i’m sure they are swooning with delight at your approval



Speaking of white knighting…


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## Glitter (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I do like how the feminists on here are hard headed though. It’s fair enough.



Fuck off, you horrible cunt.


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## weltweit (Sep 30, 2021)

The whole story appals me, how someone can become so aberrant that they have to do this to get their kicks is beyond my comprehension. I am sure that someone as aberrant would give away some tells to those around them, hence being known as the rapist in his previous role. 

It wouldn't surprise me to learn at some point that he has done this (or slightly less appalling offences) before and so far got away with it. Despite that he resoundingly failed to use his job knowledge to avoid detection in this case. I just doubt that people go from zero to rape killing in one go.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Glitter said:


> Fuck off, you horrible cunt.



Fair. Given I’ve committed no crime.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

My pro feminist position is getting me attacked by feminists. Can anyone explain this? Please do.


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

weltweit said:


> The whole story appals me, how someone can become so aberrant that they have to do this to get their kicks is beyond my comprehension. I am sure that someone as aberrant would give away some tells to those around them, hence being known as the rapist in his previous role.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me to learn at some point that he has done this (or slightly less appalling offences) before and so far got away with it. Despite that he resoundingly failed to use his job knowledge to avoid detection in this case. I just doubt that people go from zero to rape killing in one go.


That's been said a couple of pages back. Also what 'tells' do you think mark a man out to be an obvious rapist, apart from his colleagues calling him 'the rapist'?

Did you know stranger rape is not the only form of rape? That many women are raped by someone they know? 

Rapists aren't marked with an R branded on their foreheads. If they were, they'd be a lot fewer and easily avoidable.


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## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My pro feminist position is getting me attacked by feminists. Can anyone explain this? Please do.



If you're pro-feminist, you are a feminist. But you seem to think of feminists as other people.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> If you're pro-feminist, you are a feminist. But you seem to think of feminists as other people.



Well yeah like I’m male and working class so I don’t expect Boris Johnson to argue my position.
Why am I getting abuse though? It’s weird.


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## weltweit (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> That's been said a couple of pages back. Also what 'tells' do you think mark a man out to be an obvious rapist, apart from his colleagues calling him 'the rapist'?


I expect his general behaviour around women would likely have been suspect at times.


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

I can explain it Magnus McGinty you're deliberately trying to wind up people or straight up just fuck them off because you have a track record for that exact thing.. please just stop it.


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## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> My pro feminist position is getting me attacked by feminists. Can anyone explain this? Please do.


Hello Magnus McGinty. I couldn't help but notice that you've managed to make a thread about a woman killed by a serving policeman all about you somehow. Maybe you could consider leaving it a while. Ta.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I can explain it Magnus McGinty you're deliberately trying to wind up people or straight up just fuck them off because you have a track record for that exact thing.. please just stop it.



Im not though. I’m being genuine and speaking from the heart.


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I expect his general behaviour around women would likely have been suspect at times.


That's not super specific though, is it

You may just as well have said his eyes are too close together or that he looks a bit dodge.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> Hello Magnus McGinty. I couldn't help but notice that you've managed to make a thread about a woman killed by a serving policeman all about you somehow. Maybe you could consider leaving it a while. Ta.



I haven’t done this though.


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I haven’t done this though.


YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT NOW PLEASE JUST FUCK OFF THIS THREAD..


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> YOU'RE DOING IT RIGHT NOW PLEASE JUST FUCK OFF THIS THREAD..



I’m not doing anything. I’m in agreement with all your points. I connected misogyny to fascism (which is evident) and suddenly I’m being accused of non specific stuff.


----------



## weepiper (Sep 30, 2021)

Really coming onto a thread about a woman kidnapped raped and murdered by a serving policeman and telling women they've done feminism wrong? Really?


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## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

weltweit in my experience there's a few types of predator- the charmers like Bundy who are super nice until they're not; the weird loner incel types who loathe women with every fibre of their being; and those people who are just a bit 'off' but act questionably, like standing too close to a woman in a lift, or making inappropriate remarks.

Each one will have their own set of behaviours. You can't necessarily tell.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Really coming onto a thread about a woman kidnapped raped and murdered by a serving policeman and telling women they've done feminism wrong? Really?



I’ve never said that women do feminism wrong. I said that I do monitor misogynists when faced with the accusation that I wouldn’t care about feminism.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I’m not doing anything. I’m in agreement with all your points. I connected misogyny to fascism (which is evident) and suddenly I’m being accused of non specific stuff.


How about you stop arguing and start listening to all the women on this thread telling you to stop?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> How about you stop arguing and start listening to all the women on this thread telling you to stop?



I’m agreeing with you though.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

You know that book that Renni Eddo-Lodge wrote called ‘why I’m no longer talking to white people about race’?  

That’s how I feel about talking about misogyny on here. Or actually in mixed sex groups. It’s a waste of my time, my breath, my brainpower. Men need to sort this shit out.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> weltweit in my experience there's a few types of predator- the charmers like Bundy who are super nice until they're not; the weird loner incel types who loathe women with every fibre of their being; and those people who are just a bit 'off' but act questionably, like standing too close to a woman in a lift, or making inappropriate remarks.
> 
> Each one will have their own set of behaviours. You can't necessarily tell.


And it's interesting that there are so many types of predator. Is it that the same childhood experiences are being translated differently and are then acted out differently, is it personality types? And there are different coping strategies that we develop for each, too. The cheerfully wandering hand, the rage that you can feel radiating from someone, the too-competitive anger. You learn to deal with them all in different ways.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

I talk about organising against misogynists like you would fascists and get attacked lol. Logic anyone?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I talk about organising against misogynists like you would fascists and get attacked lol. Logic anyone?


Piss off.  You're not the victim here.  Stop making this about YOU.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

“Private group becomes irate and attacks”


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Piss off.  You're not the victim here.  Stop making this about YOU.



I’ve never seen you on an action opposing fascism, Incels or anything else.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I talk about organising against misogynists like you would fascists and get attacked lol. Logic anyone?


Silly, illogical women.


----------



## Glitter (Sep 30, 2021)

Poot said:


> And it's interesting that there are so many types of predator. Is it that the same childhood experiences are being translated differently and are then acted out differently, is it personality types? And there are different coping strategies that we develop for each, too. The cheerfully wandering hand, the rage that you can feel radiating from someone, the too-competitive anger. You learn to deal with them all in different ways.



I’ve just found out (about an hour ago) that a bloke I used to work with has been sent to prison for two years for using chat rooms to coerce children into sexual things. 

This guy was a colleague, not a friend. I never even had drinks after work with him I don’t think. I liked him and thought he was a lovely guy. I’d have said he’d never hurt a fly. I feel really shaken up and upset after finding out this news. I’d have sworn black was white that this guy was one of the good ones. What the fuck do we do when shit like this happens all the fucking time?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Silly, illogical women.



No, women do organise against this stuff. Not you though.


----------



## Poot (Sep 30, 2021)

Glitter said:


> I’ve just found out (about an hour ago) that a bloke I used to work with has been sent to prison for two years for using chat rooms to coerce children into sexual things.
> 
> This guy was a colleague, not a friend. I never even had drinks after work with him I don’t think. I liked him and thought he was a lovely guy. I’d have said he’d never hurt a fly. I feel really shaken up and upset after finding out this news. I’d have sworn black was white that this guy was one of the good ones. What the fuck do we do when shit like this happens all the fucking time?


Fucking hell. That must be really traumatic. Sorry Glitter.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

Can we stop responding to Magnus McGinty please?


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Can we stop responding to Magnus McGinty please?



Yeah, stop attacking me and continue with the do fuck all hot air person here.


----------



## souljacker (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> You know that book that Renni Eddo-Lodge wrote called ‘why I’m no longer talking to white people about race’?
> 
> That’s how I feel about talking about misogyny on here. Or actually in mixed sex groups. It’s a waste of my time, my breath, my brainpower. Men need to sort this shit out.



Just so you know, a lot of us are listening and trying.


----------



## little_legs (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I really do think there has to be a societal change whereby the automatic assumption that a police officer arresting someone is somehow beyond question shifts to a position whereby *any* exercise of coercion or control should be up for question. And if the police don't like that idea, perhaps they'd have been better off keeping their own house in order, rather than allowing someone to get away with behaviour that brings the whole edifice into disrepute.
> 
> I mean, presumably, dialling 999 and saying "I saw someone who appears to be a policeman bundling someone into a car" ought to be enough for them to fairly quickly ascertain whether it's legit or not. This should have never happened, and I'd be interested what police forces around the country are going to start doing (they've had enough time) to ensure it never happens again.


Banning male police officers from arresting women would be nice a start


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## Raheem (Sep 30, 2021)

little_legs said:


> Banning male police officers from arresting women would be nice a start


Think the very first thing would be the police actually recognising that there's a problem.

Some police person was on the radio this afternoon and he was asked how the police should respond, organisationally, to what has happened. He answered that there was a pressing need to reassure the public that the vast majority of police officers are wonderful, selfless heroes (almost his actual words).

Even with all the publicity, it seems like this may well get filed away as a sort of freak accident.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

Any other cunt want t swear at me for supporting  actions against misogyny do so below. Pretty bizarre but given most of you twats do nothing other than whinge on here or Twitter it’s hardly surprising. I point out an actual misogynist that nobody does fuck all about and get attacked. Yeah, you do Jack shit.


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Any other cunt want t swear at me for supporting  actions against misogyny do so below. Pretty bizarre but given most of you twats do nothing other than whinge on here or Twitter it’s hardly surprising. I point out an actual misogynist that nobody does fuck all about and get attacked. Yeah, you do Jack shit.


Really not appropriate conduct for this thread, and rightly reported by several posters. You're banned off the thread for a week.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 30, 2021)

Seriously Magnus just stop, you're embarrassing yourself trying to have the last word.


----------



## colacubes (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Any other cunt want t swear at me for supporting  actions against misogyny do so below. Pretty bizarre but given most of you twats do nothing other than whinge on here or Twitter it’s hardly surprising. I point out an actual misogynist that nobody does fuck all about and get attacked. Yeah, you do Jack shit.


You are part of the problem. Reflect on it and come back and tell us how you lecturing women about how you monitoring specific incels is somehow more important than discussing our lived experience of misogyny, male violence and police corruption. You are not an ally.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

editor said:


> Really not appropriate conduct for this thread, and righty reported by several posters. You're banned off the thread for a week.



This place isn’t good anymore mate.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Seriously Magnus just stop, you're embarrassing yourself trying to have the last word.



I did nothing wrong.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Even with all the publicity, it seems like this may well get filed away as a sort of freak accident.



There's not really any other option as far as official narratives go. That's why the key has been thrown away; to bury this one aberration as deep as possible the better to convince everyone to move on as swiftly as possible.


----------



## editor (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This place isn’t good anymore mate.


Five women have complained about your conduct in the space of ten minutes. Maybe you should take a look at yourself rather than trying to blame others.


----------



## colacubes (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I did nothing wrong.


Reflect.


----------



## trashpony (Sep 30, 2021)

God I’m so sorry Glitter. How horrible. Must be really unsettling


----------



## colacubes (Sep 30, 2021)

Separately, I’ve struggled to engage with this subject fully. But to all the men who spent much of this morning wishing violence and speculating on the fate of the perpetrator, you should all also reflect. You are part of the circle of violence here. Until we break this it will keep happening. Teach your children. Set good examples. Stop perpetrating violence even if it’s just in your thoughts not your practice. Normalise respectful consensual relationships and call out disrespectful language and behaviour straightaway.

And Numbers thank you for your honesty and reflection. We need more men like you x


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 30, 2021)

I read Wayne Coward was crying in court when Sarah's parents and sister addressed him directly. I'd like to think it was remorse for causing their grief but suspect it was more a play for sympathy, regret at being caught, or both.


----------



## BigMoaner (Sep 30, 2021)

nothing to say other than throw away the fucking key.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's not really any other option as far as official narratives go. That's why the key has been thrown away; to bury this one aberration as deep as possible the better to convince everyone to move on as swiftly as possible.


Probably, but then you might have said a similar thing about Hollywood film production.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> This place isn’t good anymore mate.



Read the room. Move on.  

Urban is a far more aware place than 5, 10, 15 years ago. There is a realisation that the sexism, the lecturing and mansplaining of yesteryear isn't going to fly anymore.

Let's try for a better world and acknowledging when it's time to stand down.

Regarding sentencing - it's just. Now it's time to educate mates, and young males and investigate the horrible police culture that closes ranks and perpetuates the hatreds and entitled behaviour of misogynists.


----------



## BigMoaner (Sep 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's not really any other option as far as official narratives go. That's why the key has been thrown away; to bury this one aberration as deep as possible the better to convince everyone to move on as swiftly as possible.


they key should be trown away, but obvisouly that shouldn't be the end of it. i would think him being banged up for life is a far greater message to those on the spectrum of this sort of brutality than any other way (and what other possible option is there?) in regards crim justice. i know a real start would be educating our sons to not treat people like objects, to value equality deep in their hearts, to understand consent, etc. i know crimes like this are just a symptom of causes that stretch on and on and are complex, but allow also the recognition that this man was a massive pile of shit to do this and he deserves to loose his freedom.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Fuck American porn and look at the way cop shows from pretty much every country focus on the violent deaths of women for salacious entertainment. Beamed into houses across the UK on free channels almost every night of the week. You can sit there with your partner watching people discuss brutal killings of young women while eating your tea, it's socially acceptable


And its all on the net, a couple of clicks away.


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## BigMoaner (Sep 30, 2021)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yeah, stop attacking me and continue with the do fuck all hot air person here.


dude, we're discussing a brutal misogynistic murder. maybe it's best to just read for a while? wheter you win the "argument" or not, deep down you must realise it's not really the place for it so even if you "win", nothing good will come of it. i think people have suggested you back off so maybe take their word for it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> And its all on the net, a couple of clicks away.


Yeh obvs it's on iPlayer and Walter presents and other streaming services. But you don't need to be going online for shows which pump out plots involving murders of young women when terrestrial channels are so keen to find them for you


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## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I read Wayne Coward was crying in court when Sarah's parents and sister addressed him directly. I'd like to think it was remorse for causing their grief but suspect it was more a play for sympathy, regret at being caught, or both.


A "like" wasn't enough. I am absolutely sure that his "grief" was more about self-pity than anything else. But I liked that they demanded that he look at them - that shows tremendous courage and determination...I know that the prospect of delivering my own victim impact statement was a terrifying one, even though I'm usually perfectly up to doing that kind of thing. I had a little cry when I read about it.


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 30, 2021)

The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women

Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent;  and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women
> 
> Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent;  and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.


"Oh, we can't be doing with that forn politically correct nonsense. Here in the UK, we have our own ways of dealing with the little ladies."


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## LeytonCatLady (Sep 30, 2021)

existentialist said:


> A "like" wasn't enough. I am absolutely sure that his "grief" was more about self-pity than anything else. But I liked that they demanded that he look at them - that shows tremendous courage and determination...I know that the prospect of delivering my own victim impact statement was a terrifying one, even though I'm usually perfectly up to doing that kind of thing. I had a little cry when I read about it.


I'm sure you did fine. I'm sorry it was necessary though.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 30, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I'm sure you did fine. I'm sorry it was necessary though.


I didn't have to, in the end. The judge incorporated bits of it into her sentencing remarks. Which I was grateful for, but also felt slightly cheated by. But she blended it in well to her judicial ripping into him.


----------



## AverageJoe (Sep 30, 2021)

This thread breaks my heart. 

So many frustrated female posters. A lot of male posters that want to help but aren't sure how to. 

I drink in a local pub in a small town. The table I frequent is full of mysoginists, casual racists and flat track bullies. I call them out all the time about it. They react by being even more outrageous, to get the laugh from others

I've been punched twice for that. I've been barred for three months for reacting. I genuinely want to help be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. My kids (11 and 13) are totally cool and have no negative opinions of race, sex or religion etc. The teachers at school are amazing and have helped bring them up as well rounded, fair thinking people. 

But they are kids. I'm 50. As much as I try to do the right thing by calling this shitty behaviour it, I'm teased, and sometimes attacked, and worse... Gossiped about. Thats the one that gets me. 

I'd like to think I'm part of the solution rather than part of the problem, but I kinda realise that men these days, are in general just so _shit_ that I'm struggling to have the energy to fight the fight when it's easier to walk away for fear of being attacked or ostracised. 

I mean I won't, and I never would. But fuck me it's hard work and tiring to continually tell people that the comments and attitudes they have are wrong. 

And at the end of the day I go to the pub to have a pint and a chat, not to teach them. 

I'm not sure sometimes even if I'm doing the right thing. It's really hard to be a man, telling other men they are being cunts. 

I realise this last sentence might not be written in the way I mean it, but I hope you get. the idea. 

No person, should ever be put in a situation they are uncomfortable with in any instance. I fear that without massive changes (of which I have no idea what they would be or how they would be done), it's going to be down to my kids and their friends and peers to make this much more equal. And that time is six or seven years away. 

Sorry for the long post. It's meant with the best intentions x


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 30, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women
> 
> Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent;  and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.


I'm writing a session to be delivered to students across my college about consent, sexual harassment, abuse and the culture of sexism. I talked to a lot of female students to ask what they'd like it to include as I was conscious I couldn't properly put such a thing together from my experiences.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Sep 30, 2021)

AverageJoe said:


> This thread breaks my heart.
> 
> So many frustrated female posters. A lot of male posters that want to help but aren't sure how to.
> 
> ...


Joe, don't be so hard on yourself. You're doing what you can - speaking up when you hear something sexist, telling your peers it's not OK, and raising your kids to do the same. That's all anyone can do. If anything, you're going above and beyond in risking physical violence, which nobody expects of you, but you do that anyway because you believe in what you're saying! You're a good bloke, along with my brothers, male friends and countless blokes on this board I have a laugh with every day, and it breaks my heart when horrible stories like this are in the paper - first and foremost for their victims, but also for the many innocent men who wouldn't dream of doing what Couzens et al did, but risk being lumped in with him anyway because women have no way of telling.

I get what you're saying from the woman side of the coin too. I used to work on a team of women who used to do nothing but slag our male colleagues off all day, and they disliked me for not joining in. They used to say stuff like "All men are violent" and I asked how they'd like it if it was a group of blokes sitting round saying "All women are stupid, bitchy, incompetent etc", because it was the exact same kind of naff generalisation they were making. (This was the same group of women who stuck up for a man on the team who sexually harassed me, because he was "only paying me a compliment" and blamed me for "getting him fired", by the way.) One time when they said "Men are a different species", I asked them how that was any different from the excuses made for slavery, and "separate-but-equal" laws, to which I got no satisfactory reply. It does feel as though many people think gender is the "last acceptable prejudice". So I know what it's like to feel the need to lead by example all the time, and it is exhausting. I felt the same - I was there to do admin work, not educate a bunch of seemingly intelligent women that "othering" is wrong! But sometimes if you run out of energy, it's OK to quietly lead by example by...just not making offensive remarks yourself. Maybe it's different in my case because my female colleagues didn't have the same social power that men do, and can't do _as_ much damage with sexist remarks (although it's still not right, and men do suffer discrimination in certain jobs), but yeah, we shouldn't have to still be reminding each other about that in the 21st century!

Your two kids and their mates sound like they're pretty right-on anyway, without having to wait until they're 17/18/19 etc. A lot can happen in six or seven years, and by the time they are adults, hopefully we'll have made more progress.


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## Plumdaff (Sep 30, 2021)

My daughter's 9 and you see it even at that age from a minority of the boys. Horrid, sexist teasing. Statements about what girls can't do, how rubbish girls are. I think it is better than when I was a kid but there's still a significant number of young boys getting this at home, or from their peers or somewhere and it's really awful that it continues. We really need to think about how we educate and socialise boys and young men. And I don't mean school, I mean as a society, what do we want to instill in them.


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## AverageJoe (Sep 30, 2021)

Thank you LCL. I really appreciate that


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 30, 2021)

Cllr Anna Birley from Lambeth and organiser of Reclaim the Streets said today on ten o'clock radio 4 news that Cressida Dick should resign. That the Home Secretary extending her contract was wrong.

Bit surprised at that. While back I was at local community meeting and said that. Wasn't taken seriously by senior Lambeth Cllr present. We have good relations with Police was what I was told during meeting. They weren't going to call for her resignation.

So be interesting how Lambeth Labour group deal with Cllr Birley comment on Cressida Dick.

Cressida Dick has long history with Lambeth. Not a good one.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Sep 30, 2021)

I dunno.  There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.


----------



## Plumdaff (Sep 30, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I dunno.  There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.


She should never have got the job because of Stockwell but she's presided over a repugnant, violent and defensive police culture - even today their first instinct has been to distance and defend themselves. Women who uphold misogyny are part of the problem too.


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## Gramsci (Sep 30, 2021)

Calls for her resignation by Harriet Harman. Who even sent Cressida Dick a letter on this. Retweeted by Cllr Anna Birley. Good to see this. This among other issues of how she has policed London mean she should go.


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## LeytonCatLady (Sep 30, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I tell you what the solution is. Zero tolerance. Zero tolerance every time one of your mates say, ‘I’d like to smash her back doors in’ ‘look at the tits on that’ ‘jailbait‘ or any other objectifying statement you can think of. Or calls a woman a stupid bitch or says she’s breaking your balls or* you’re on a ball and chain if you treat your partner with respect.*


I'd been  going out with my first ex for about a year when I realised he thought that. We were watching _The Office_, and he'd shake his head in disapproval every time Tim interacted with Dawn/Rachel/any other woman, saying things like "Weak man!" Probably because Tim's the only one of the main male characters who actually respects women as equals, unlike sexist David and Gareth.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 1, 2021)

From what I remember of what Cllr Anna Birley said was that Cressida Dick keeps saying lessons have been learned. 

Her whole career is based on that.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 1, 2021)

Glitter said:


> I’ve just found out (about an hour ago) that a bloke I used to work with has been sent to prison for two years for using chat rooms to coerce children into sexual things.
> 
> This guy was a colleague, not a friend. I never even had drinks after work with him I don’t think. I liked him and thought he was a lovely guy. I’d have said he’d never hurt a fly. I feel really shaken up and upset after finding out this news. I’d have sworn black was white that this guy was one of the good ones. What the fuck do we do when shit like this happens all the fucking time?


I remember when I was temping years ago and the temp agency sent me to do some admin work at the Probation Service, and they had loads of index cards recording individual records of community service. I remember noticing that lots of the cards had a small red round sticker on them and when I asked what that was for, I was told, iirc, that those were the people sentenced to community service who'd been convicted of some kind of sexual offence. So they weren't allowed to eg be sent to a school to do some painting or couldn't be sent to an old folks home to do gardening or any tasks where there might be young or old or otherwise vulnerable people around. 

I remember being really shocked by how many there were.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women
> 
> Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent;  and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.


It is sorta there. I know it's on my tutorial curriculum as a topic. Unfortunately a lot of the time teachers are meant to mix it in to other lessons sprinkled through the course. However its not a main focus so often gets left out unless you get a brainwave on how to fit it in. Often you more worried about making sure students get the assessment criteria on which your performance will be judged than thinking about great ways to integrate topics that you might not even feel well equipped to handle. 

Thats if you manage to get it in after all the embedded English, maths, and British values...


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Is there a way to reduce the number of men who become predators? Do they learn to see women as prey because of their parenting, or school experiences, or films/TV? I can't think of any measures being taken to curb predatory/violent appetites. Have we all accepted that some men are just born with these tendencies? It's not enough to ask women to be careful and/or for policing to be better....can't we do something which stops men wanting to do these things?




It's very broad, just off the top of my head:

It's part of the whole make up of our society, which is based on exploitation and inequality, that's what capitalism is. If there wasn't a strong ideology that some of us deserve to be exploited then it wouldn't function in that way. The whole thing is based on exceptions to equality, some people are worth less, less human than others, women, working-class people, black and brown people etc. Some are the exploiters and the rest are exploited. Critiques of the family, when they were fashionable, used to involve an idea that men took out the humiliations of the workplace (in which we have little power)  on women and children at home. I don't hear that kind of critique anymore.

Psychoanalytically, the idea is that people, unconsciously, project their vulnerability into others, where it is despised. This begins very early, and it will take the form of the culture children are a part of. Tough boys become tough by projecting their 'weakness' elsewhere, into girls, into gay people, it's put out there. This can get stuck and concrete, and these other people, people who are seen as part of a group who share characteristics, become hated. Add some paranoia - it's all their fault - and it's very toxic.

Many boys are referred into CAMHS for aggression and violence. There might be family difficulties, exposure to dv, sometimes neurodevelopmental difficulties. Girls too, but not so often, I don't think it's taken as seriously. Boys violence scares people, they don't know how to manage it-  'what happens when he's bigger than me and he's like his dad?'

And then, there are some children who are severely neglected, subject to or exposed to violence, the use of drugs and violence, terribly abused or tortured even who go into care and their hatred might be evident from quite young, there are some children who enjoy hurting and killing animals. Its hatred that should be the red flag, not only hatred of women, that's the shape that hatred takes, and that shape might be more obvious later, but the underlying warning that a child needs help is hatred, and taking pleasure in hatred, and a belief that if they are not to be the prey, the victim, then they must be the predator. And this needs to be seen, alongside their vulnerability, and not turned away from because we don't like to think such things about children and they need the right therapy, and well-supported carers, which has a chance of helping.

 I think the use of drugs and porn really amplifies any underlying hatred. It gives that hatred a form and offers excitement. This is a massive problem.


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It's very broad, just off the top of my head:
> 
> It's part of the whole make up of our society, which is based on exploitation and inequality, that's what capitalism is. If there wasn't a strong ideology that some of us deserve to be exploited then it wouldn't function in that way. The whole thing is based on exceptions to equality, some people are worth less, less human than others, women, working-class people, black and brown people etc. Some are the exploiters and the rest are exploited. Critiques of the family, when they were fashionable, used to involve an idea that men took out the humiliations of the workplace (in which we have little power)  on women and children at home. I don't hear that kind of critique anymore.
> 
> ...


This is really interesting - what a great post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I dunno.  There's something very dodgy about calling for a woman to resign because of a man's violent wrongdoings towards a woman.


I'm not sure why you think cd's position tenable when her force has such a lamentable record under her leadership of refusing to accept criticism (eg the Daniel Morgan report) as well as egregious failures in investigating its own - thinking here of the accusations against WC. At some point she has to take responsibility for the met's in/actions.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> My daughter's 9 and you see it even at that age from a minority of the boys. Horrid, sexist teasing. Statements about what girls can't do, how rubbish girls are. I think it is better than when I was a kid but there's still a significant number of young boys getting this at home, or from their peers or somewhere and it's really awful that it continues. We really need to think about how we educate and socialise boys and young men. And I don't mean school, I mean as a society, what do we want to instill in them.



Yes the school ecosystem is one thing but what they're exposed to at home is another. I had one kid tell me that his dad had told him he'd shoot him in the face if he came out as gay. Unsurprisingly this kid presented in school as being surly, obnoxious and jaded beyond his years. Somewhere in there was a normal, happy kid trying to get out but there was just this wall of rage in the way.

The low standards expected of men mean that he'll be able to carry that rage, and all the shitty behaviour that comes from it, into an independent life in the adult world and there will be plenty of places where it will be accepted or encouraged.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 1, 2021)

'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.



Insane but also seems to be very pointedly missing the point. All that  'advice' is for if you suspect the man might not be a REAL police officer, just pretending, as if real ones are safe.


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

I won't link to it because it's in the Mail, but I've just read that there are - surprise surprise - a number of racist, sexist, homophobic Whatsapp chats involving the killer. Hopefully any serving police officer involved in these chats will be hung out to dry, though I won't hold my breath.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'Wave a bus down'


resisting arrest


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm not sure why you think cd's position tenable when her force has such a lamentable record under her leadership of refusing to accept criticism (eg the Daniel Morgan report) as well as egregious failures in investigating its own - thinking here of the accusations against WC. At some point she has to take responsibility for the met's in/actions.


You're right.  My post was made when I was feeling very emotional about the whole disgusting case.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 1, 2021)

Rape and murder while pretending to be a police officer whose job on paper is to prevent that sort of thing happening.


Barrister needs to be done for contempt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.




They can't help themselves but to totally shit the bed on this can they? Breathtakingly stupid.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 290790
> 
> Rape and murder while pretending to be a police officer whose job on paper is to prevent that sort of thing happening.
> 
> ...


Attacking defence lawyers for doing their best for their clients within the law is a dodgy road to go down.  Often, they're all that protect us from the state.

And this criticism is expecially poor given he didn't say what's claimed. He pointed out that:

"The majority of cases where whole life sentences have been imposed have been multiple killings or there have been a second conviction, child killings or politically motivated."

And added:

“Nothing I say today is intended to minimise the horror of what the defendant did that night.

"He makes no excuses for his actions. He knows he deserves a severe punishment.

"No person hearing statements from the Everard family yesterday can make any excuse for what he did.

"He is filled with self-loathing and shame. And he should be.”


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Attacking defence lawyers for doing their best for their clients within the law is a dodgy road to go down.  Often, they're all that protect us from the state.
> 
> And this criticism is expecially poor given he didn't say what's claimed. He pointed out that:
> 
> ...


It's a tricky tightrope. Barristers are supposed to represent the best interests of their clients, while at the same time obeying the rules of the court (I know you know this, Athos ). Nobody's going to like the idea of standing up for someone as loathsome as Sarah's murderer, but I agree with you that, for justice to be served and seen to be served, *someone* has to be there to speak for him. Which has duly been done, and I note that the judge was careful to acknowledge the defence's role in the running of the trial. And now, at least, the convicted party does not have the figleaf of being able to claim he was badly represented, or that justice was somehow not done in court.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.



there's never one about when you want one


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

The Met has admitted it didn't do the vetting properly before he transferred over, as they missed an indecent exposure incident linked to a vehicle registered to him.

They also said even if they had linked it, as he wasn't a named suspect, the outcome wouldn't have changed.

Which is just fucking brilliant.

Here's a thought, Metropolitan Police, maybe your vetting process and procedures aren't fit for purpose.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there's never one about when you want one


There's no night buses running near me in Glasgow. To be fair I'd flag down a black cab. If there was one.


----------



## sparkybird (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The WHO has this fact sheet: Violence against women
> 
> Amongst other things it mentions education for children and adults. "Norms on the acceptability of violence against women are a root cause of violence against women..Promising interventions include...school programmes that...include curricula that challenges gender stereotypes and promotes relationships based on equality and consent;  and group-based participatory education with women and men to generate critical reflections about unequal gender power relationships." Does anyone know of education like this in the UK? There's probably a UN programme about it but I haven't found it yet.


There is the Good Lad initiative here in the UK works at uni level. But it's a drop in the ocean and receives nothing compared to the funds put into counter terrorism


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> There is the Good Lad initiative here in the UK works at uni level. But it's a drop in the ocean and receives nothing compared to the funds put into counter terrorism


And - while late is better than never - doing it at uni level is leaving it very late.

But then again, you only have to look at something like the back-to-school haircuts thread to realise what a complete Horlicks schools would make of this kind of training


----------



## sparkybird (Oct 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


> 'Wave a bus down' Seriously? FFS.



Once again its up to the woman to sort out this mess by flagging down a fucking bus (as if!), rather than the MET and the men serving in it 
Is Dick even a woman??.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> There's no night buses running near me in Glasgow. To be fair I'd flag down a black cab. If there was one.


why should bus drivers be expected to police the police anyway? imo any police force which says 'get a bus driver to assist you in dealing with us' should be disbanded and its staff dispersed to other jobs where they can do no harm to the public, feeding birds in the south shetlands for example


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## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> Once again its up to the woman to sort out this mess by flagging down a fucking bus (as if!), rather than the MET and the men serving in it
> Is Dick even a woman??.


A woman in what is very, very evidently still very much a man's world.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> Once again its up to the woman to sort out this mess by flagging down a fucking bus (as if!), rather than the MET and the men serving in it
> Is Dick even a woman??.


she is a woman. but she is also a high-ranking police officer. and it's certainly in this latter capacity that she's failing dismally.


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## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

She really needs to resign over this. Someone needs to tell her to go


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

Sarah Everard: Challenge plain-clothes officers, Met Police says Sarah Everard: Challenge plain-clothes officers, Met Police says


> In a letter to MPs, seen by the BBC, Scotland Yard admitted the case was part of a "much bigger and troubling picture".
> 
> The force advised people detained by a lone plain-clothes officer to ask "where are your colleagues" and "where have you come from?"



Here’s all their brilliant advice 

ETA: My first ever contact with the Met was years ago when I was at a demo with my boyfriend and the Met were trying to get us off the road onto the pavement and my boyfriend got knocked back onto the road  They arrested him. I had never been to London and didn’t know anyone else here. I was pleading with them to tell me where they were taking him and they told me to ‘shut up you slag or we’ll arrest you too’. Nothing much has changed since then has it?


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## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She really needs to resign over this. Someone needs to tell her to go


I'm hoping that when the extent of the Whatsapp messages, the things that were said in police cars, the station, the allegations, the hundreds of sexual assaults that were reported and the probably thousands that were not, and the absolute culture is looked into, she'll get the sack. Bet she doesn't, though.


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## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She really needs to resign over this. Someone needs to tell her to go


That someone would be Priti Patel. I'm not going to be holding my breath.


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## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

They absolutely knew, his colleagues nicknamed him 'The Rapist' remember, as a funny joke because they _knew,_ knew that he hated women but hey whatever that's quite normal and no big deal.

That is what they need to look at, how that was 'ok'.
No easy answers obvs but it's definitely not a failure of paperwork its much bigger than that.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She really needs to resign over this. Someone needs to tell her to go



She's a disgrace. Unable to smell cannabis, apparently. But her comments when she ordered JCdM to be executed should have stopped her career dead in its tracks:

"I think about it quite often. I wish, wish, wish it hadn't happened, of course, but if anything it has made me a better leader, a better police officer and it has made me more resilient."


Killing him made her a better copper? And yeah, walking away with just a promotion and a damehood, can see why that's made her more resilient


----------



## xenon (Oct 1, 2021)

Dear women , we're sorry we have some rapists, misogynists and other assorted scumbags working for us. AKA baddons. If you think one of these may be trying to harm you on the pretext of Police work,  please, erm... Shout at a bus or something. Or yes, challenge them for ID and ask about their authority. Thanks.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 1, 2021)

existentialist said:


> A woman in what is very, very evidently still very much a man's world.


Whilst I can't stand CD she is a woman in charge of men. Instead of being a safe pair of hands and facilitating the closing of ranks this time she needs to act. And act quickly and visibly.

Failure to do anything of meaning will make her incompetence outweigh her usefulness


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 1, 2021)

The institution we look to to protect and serve us is staffed and managed by thick racist misogynists.


xenon said:


> Dear women , we're sorry we have some rapists, misogynists and other assorted scumbags working for us. AKA baddons. If you think one of these may be trying to harm you on the pretext of Police work,  please, erm... Shout at a bus or something. Or yes, challenge them for ID and ask about their authority. Thanks.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

xenon said:


> Dear women , we're sorry we have some rapists, misogynists and other assorted scumbags working for us. AKA baddons. If you think one of these may be trying to harm you on the pretext of Police work,  please, erm... Shout at a bus or something. Or yes, challenge them for ID and ask about their authority. Thanks.


I think that summary is accurate, although you missed the 'you can still trust us, honest' after 'authority'


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

This is good, on how they’re all trying to absolve themselves of responsibility for one of their own & why they must not get away with it.









						Sarah Everard: The police must be held to account | Tom Farr | The Critic Magazine
					

On Thursday 30 September, more than six months after the harrowing murder of Sarah Everard, Police Constable Wayne Couzens was sentenced to life in prison, with the tariff being set at a “whole-life…




					thecritic.co.uk


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I mean, their advice is 'flag down a bus' for fucks sake.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is good, on how they’re all trying to absolve themselves of responsibility for one of their own & why they must not get away with it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


the met police, avoiding accountability for 192 years


----------



## xenon (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I mean, their advice is 'flag down a bus' for fucks sake.



It's so tone deaf and dense isn't it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

xenon said:


> It's so tone deaf and dense isn't it.


it'd be hilarious if it wasn't so serious. 'when the police are the criminals, turn to butler and blakey'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 1, 2021)

sparkybird said:


> Once again its up to the woman to sort out this mess by flagging down a fucking bus (as if!), rather than the MET and the men serving in it
> Is Dick even a woman??.



She's a monster, gender notwithstanding.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's a monster, gender notwithstanding.


Monsteress


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Monsteress


if actresses are now actors then monstresses are now monsters


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> her comments when she ordered JCdM to be executed should have stopped her career dead in its tracks:



I'm glad someone remembers the incident. Nobody else seems to.

The subsequent coverup drove Brian Paddick out of the force, a man who seemed to be that rarest of things, a copper with principles, who wouldn't go along with things for the sake of the team. When he ran for London mayor, I thought he'd receive a sizeable chunk of the vote, and maybe even win, given that Livingstone had become an embarrassment and Johnson had never been anything else. But he came nowhere, and we ended up with the idiot who's now ruining running the country.


----------



## Numbers (Oct 1, 2021)

sojourner said:


> I'm very glad you did though, in the end. And you've gained insight. I do understand that response - if anyone did anything to my daughter, I would probably feel the same way. But as you say - the person you did it on _behalf_ of did not want you to do it. I felt like I was going mad, trying to stop them, just in a tornado of violence and I couldn't stand it.


I've been thinking about this overnight and speaking with my wife, as we have done loads of times - about why I personally was so violent and why/when it stopped.  

Things happened when I was young which I later accepted made me very angry to begin, juxtapose that with a very tough boys only school where it was a toxic environment where you had to earn your stripes so to speak, violence was pretty much part of the fabric of the school and town I lived in on a daily basis, including boys against boys, teachers against boys, boys against teachers, corporal punishment, it was just violent.  I embraced that wholeheartedly and loved, absolutely loved fighting, I was never a bully but was proud of being tough/tasty.  I'd wear black eyes or busted eye sockets, broken noses/jaws like a badge of honour.

I wince to my very core now when I think back on it.

But what made me stop was 2 incidents.  

Before my wife and I got together something happened to her by the partner of her sisters best friend, she told me about it as we were getting to know one another, and vice versa I told her things. But it made me so angry even tho' I didn't know him, didn't know her when it happened, it was none of my business except for me to show empathy to her.  At a wedding I met him, instantly didn't like him but it didn't bother me enough to want to _have a word_ or anything, until that is he made a comment about another woman there, something to the effect of 'I'd giver her one' - I can't remember exactly. Instantly I saw red mist and chinned him, 1% for that comment but 99% for what he had done years before. Long story short it (my actions) REALLY upset my wife (GF at the time), more than I'd ever seen her upset, until....

A couple of weeks later she was coming to visit me in my flat, she used to come up from Croydon to Ealing to stay for the weekend.  This particular evening when she came in to my flat she was visibly distressed and told me what had happened, an unsavoury situation with a random bloke.  Once again the red mist kicked in and I immediately went to leave my flat to find him but she tried to stop me and I pushed her onto my bed (fwiw it's the only time I've ever been physical with her) and left the flat, I spent an hour looking for this bloke, totally enraged and god knows what I would have done to him if I had of caught up with him.  When I got back she was in tears and still badly shook up - I had left her there on her own in that state when I really should have stayed with her.

It was at that point I changed, it took a long time more to naturally not react, for years after I had to bite my lip/hold my temper in situations.  I'm not saying there wasn't any more violence but it was only in situations where I was started on, or attempted robberies on me, that kind of thing.

It took a long time to go from loving violence which was bred into me from early to loathing it through self analysis and the love of my wife.

Bit of an irrelevant post, soz, just been thinking about it because this thread is an eye opener in many ways.


----------



## Cid (Oct 1, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's a tricky tightrope. Barristers are supposed to represent the best interests of their clients, while at the same time obeying the rules of the court (I know you know this, Athos ). Nobody's going to like the idea of standing up for someone as loathsome as Sarah's murderer, but I agree with you that, for justice to be served and seen to be served, *someone* has to be there to speak for him. Which has duly been done, and I note that the judge was careful to acknowledge the defence's role in the running of the trial. And now, at least, the convicted party does not have the figleaf of being able to claim he was badly represented, or that justice was somehow not done in court.



That's well summed up... So I'll tack the most fucked-up thing mentioned when the judge discusses mitigation onto the end of that:



> He has no prior previous convictions and some of his colleagues have spoken supportively of him.



(Paragraph 11)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

Cid said:


> That's well summed up... So I'll tack the most fucked-up thing mentioned when the judge discusses mitigation onto the end of that:


damned with faint mitigation


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

He may have no prior convictions but I wouldn’t be at all surprised if he has subsequent convictions.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

Cid said:


> That's well summed up... So I'll tack the most fucked-up thing mentioned when the judge discusses mitigation onto the end of that:
> 
> 
> 
> (Paragraph 11)


My take on that was that the judge seemed to be saying "this is the totality of what I can say as far as mitigation goes." The legal equivalent of damning with faint praise: and damning those colleagues who spoke well of him, too. Perhaps that's a judicial way of saying "this isn't one rotten apple in a barrel - the barrel's evidently rotten".


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

Cid said:


> That's well summed up... So I'll tack the most fucked-up thing mentioned when the judge discusses mitigation onto the end of that:
> 
> 
> 
> (Paragraph 11)


The idea that former colleagues would stick up for him after what he'd admitted doing is as telling as it is terrifying.  And rather goes against the Met's official line that he was an abberation that they don't consider to be one of their own.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 1, 2021)

What’s been baffling me is that it was totally planned. He told his family he was working and actually bought the stuff he needed. It’s not like something happened and he snapped. 

From what I’ve been reading as well, it seems like he was a perfectly nice husband. Doesn’t appear to have been horrid to his wife so I was wrong about that.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> The idea that former colleagues would stick up for him after what he'd admitted doing is as telling as it is terrifying.  And rather goes against the Met's official line that he was an abberation that they don't consider to be one of their own.


I presume this is the bit where some representative of the murdering rapist twat went around his colleagues asking if some of them would provide a character reference. Which, evidently, at least one must have done. That might be a good place to start a followup investigation.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> And rather goes against the Met's official line that he was an abberation that they don't consider to be one of their own.


the assistant commissioner quoted here seems to get it, fwiw









						Sarah Everard’s killer might have been identified as threat sooner, police admit
					

Details of indecent exposure claims emerge as ex-Met officer Wayne Couzens is given whole-life sentence




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Cid (Oct 1, 2021)

existentialist said:


> My take on that was that the judge seemed to be saying "this is the totality of what I can say as far as mitigation goes." The legal equivalent of damning with faint praise: and damning those colleagues who spoke well of him, too. Perhaps that's a judicial way of saying "this isn't one rotten apple in a barrel - the barrel's evidently rotten".



Both the judge and barrister have to mention it, that's why I tacked it onto your post... And yes, may rather have that effect. But presumably the defence actually found more than one colleague who was willing to put in writing 'Oh yeah, Waste, he's not that bad'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> the assistant commissioner quoted here seems to get it, fwiw
> 
> 
> 
> ...


his is a standard way of saying something by saying nothing. it'll go nowhere. nothing will be done. the met will go on as before.


----------



## Numbers (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> What’s been baffling me is that it was totally planned. He told his family he was working and actually bought the stuff he needed. It’s not like something happened and he snapped.
> 
> From what I’ve been reading as well, it seems like he was a perfectly nice husband. Doesn’t appear to have been horrid to his wife so I was wrong about that.


Preparing for at least a month before.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> What’s been baffling me is that it was totally planned. He told his family he was working and actually bought the stuff he needed. It’s not like something happened and he snapped.
> 
> From what I’ve been reading as well, it seems like he was a perfectly nice husband. Doesn’t appear to have been horrid to his wife so I was wrong about that.


Weeks in the planning (at least); the judge referred to a number of otherwise unexplained trips to London.

You can almost understand (though obviously not excuse) how a man who is mentally ill fails to control a sexual urge, then panics and kills his victim. But for someone apparantly normal and self-possessed to plan and carry this out seems so utterly beyond the pale.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Weeks in the planning (at least); the judge referred to a number of otherwise unexplained trips to London.
> 
> You can almost understand (though obviously not excuse) how a man who is mentally ill fails to control a sexual urge, then panics and kills his victim. But for someone apparantly normal and self-possessed to plan and carry this out seems so utterly beyond the pale.


I note that the judge dismissed the significance of the claims of depression in fairly short order, too.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> What’s been baffling me is that it was totally planned. He told his family he was working and actually bought the stuff he needed. It’s not like something happened and he snapped.
> 
> From what I’ve been reading as well, it seems like he was a perfectly nice husband. Doesn’t appear to have been horrid to his wife so I was wrong about that.



Seems like serial killer stuff for sure - another cop, 'Golden State Killer' Joseph DeAngelo in California, killed at least 13 people and raped more than 50 women over 12 years, his wife and children apparently had no idea and he wasn't arrested until he was tracked down through DNA more than 30 years after the crimes. I think it's very likely that Couzens would have gone on to kill again and again if he hadn't been caught.


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

Numbers said:


> I've been thinking about this overnight and speaking with my wife, as we have done loads of times - about why I personally was so violent and why/when it stopped.
> 
> Things happened when I was young which I later accepted made me very angry to begin, juxtapose that with a very tough boys only school where it was a toxic environment where you had to earn your stripes so to speak, violence was pretty much part of the fabric of the school and town I lived in on a daily basis, including boys against boys, teachers against boys, boys against teachers, corporal punishment, it was just violent.  I embraced that wholeheartedly and loved, absolutely loved fighting, I was never a bully but was proud of being tough/tasty.  I'd wear black eyes or busted eye sockets, broken noses/jaws like a badge of honour.
> 
> ...


Numbers, thanks for posting this. I wish more men would reflect on things as thoughtfully as you have. (And it's completely relevant to this thread IMO .)


----------



## Voley (Oct 1, 2021)

Had a day to think about this and still don't have the words for it, really.

All I can say is RIP Sarah. I'm sorry this happened to you. I'm sorry that men are so fucked up. I'm sorry the Met are such an awful organisation who still don't fucking get it. Fucking hell.

RIP Sarah.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I note that the judge dismissed the significance of the claims of depression in fairly short order, too.


It was never going to come close to mitigation for what he'd done. A member of the public impulsively shoplifting a bottle of wine - maybe. But a copper planning and executing an horrific kidnap, rape, and murder!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> the assistant commissioner quoted here seems to get it, fwiw
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stephen House was one of the _either cognisant, incompetent or negligent _senior officers referenced in the IPT judgment yesterday. He was the point man for the Met's strategy of withholding evidence from Kate Wilson in her pursuit of holding to account police sexual predators who preyed upon women activists whilst undercover.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Stephen House was one of the _either cognisant, incompetent or negligent _senior officers referenced in the IPT judgment yesterday. He was the point man for the Met's strategy of withholding evidence from Kate Wilson in her pursuit of holding to account police sexual predators who preyed upon women activists whilst undercover.


ah. there we are then.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 1, 2021)

Either the vetting service is utterly fucked or the met don’t take any notice of the outcome and just go for big macho wankers with size 12 boots irrespective. Plenty of red flags there from ropy behaviour, cash flow questions to previous employment reports.


----------



## andysays (Oct 1, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Whilst I can't stand CD she is a woman in charge of men. Instead of being a safe pair of hands and facilitating the closing of ranks this time she needs to act. And act quickly and visibly.
> 
> Failure to do anything of meaning will make her incompetence outweigh her usefulness


The sad truth is that she had already facilitated the closing of ranks and failure to do anything meaningful in this case, and she owes her position at the top of the Met to another closing of ranks and failure to do anything meaningful in the case of the shooting of Jean Charles de Menezes.

In the end, this is a problem which goes far beyond the responsibility of the current Commissioner of the Met Police, and wouldn't be meaningfully addressed by them resigning, understandable though calls for them to resign are. 

The Met and other police forces are not just institutionally racist and misogynistic, they're institutional corrupt and incapable of reforming themselves to address that corruption.


----------



## andysays (Oct 1, 2021)

Numbers said:


> I've been thinking about this overnight and speaking with my wife, as we have done loads of times - about why I personally was so violent and why/when it stopped.
> 
> Things happened when I was young which I later accepted made me very angry to begin, juxtapose that with a very tough boys only school where it was a toxic environment where you had to earn your stripes so to speak, violence was pretty much part of the fabric of the school and town I lived in on a daily basis, including boys against boys, teachers against boys, boys against teachers, corporal punishment, it was just violent.  I embraced that wholeheartedly and loved, absolutely loved fighting, I was never a bully but was proud of being tough/tasty.  I'd wear black eyes or busted eye sockets, broken noses/jaws like a badge of honour.
> 
> ...


Not an irrelevant post, IMO, but a very brave and honest one.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not an irrelevant post, IMO, but a very brave and honest one.


Yeah Numbers , thanks for your honesty. It was brave of you to share.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 1, 2021)

xenon said:


> Dear women , we're sorry we have some rapists, misogynists and other assorted scumbags working for us. AKA baddons. If you think one of these may be trying to harm you on the pretext of Police work,  please, erm... Shout at a bus or something. Or yes, challenge them for ID and ask about their authority. Thanks.


i know, unreal. talk about blame the fucking victim!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Weeks in the planning (at least); the judge referred to a number of otherwise unexplained trips to London.
> 
> You can almost understand (though obviously not excuse) how a man who is mentally ill fails to control a sexual urge, then panics and kills his victim. But for someone apparantly normal and self-possessed to plan and carry this out seems so utterly beyond the pale.


This is how psychopaths and disturbed serial killers are.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Seems like serial killer stuff for sure - another cop, 'Golden State Killer' Joseph DeAngelo in California, killed at least 13 people and raped more than 50 women over 12 years, his wife and children apparently had no idea and he wasn't arrested until he was tracked down through DNA more than 30 years after the crimes. I think it's very likely that Couzens would have gone on to kill again and again if he hadn't been caught.


Known crimes. It could be higher.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> This is how psychopaths and disturbed serial killers are.


Outside the movies, I think psychopathy typically involves the opposite - poor impulse control and planning.  More spur of the moment (even those who kill more than once) than weeks in the planning.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Known crimes. It could be higher.



I don't want to 'like' that post but I definitely agree with it.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 1, 2021)

Yes I've read enough books on serial killers over the years and boy does henpoint toward that sort of thing,


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Outside the movies, I think psychopathy typically involves the opposite - poor impulse control and planning.  More spur of the moment (even those who kill more than once) than weeks in the planning.


No, pyschopaths are often incredibly meticulous and "together"


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> Weeks in the planning (at least); the judge referred to a number of otherwise unexplained trips to London.
> 
> You can almost understand (though obviously not excuse) how a man who is mentally ill fails to control a sexual urge, then panics and kills his victim. But for someone apparantly normal and self-possessed to plan and carry this out seems so utterly beyond the pale.


He was ‘apparently normal’ and was nicknamed The Rapist by his colleagues. I’m not arguing with you, just saying.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> He was ‘apparently normal’ and was nicknamed The Rapist by his colleagues. I’m not arguing with you, just saying.


Yeah, fair point.  Perhaps 'normal' want the best word; I was trying to convey the idea that he wasn't an obvious psycopath, even if he was obviously (to some) a potential predator.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> I don't want to 'like' that post but I definitely agree with it.


I know what you mean. Interestingly the Golden State Killer planned not to do crimes, once DNA systems were up and running, he stopped.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> He was ‘apparently normal’ and was nicknamed The Rapist by his colleagues. I’m not arguing with you, just saying.


if he was seen as normal in that environment then perhaps that environment needs to be changed


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Broadly speaking killers fall into disorganised or organised types.

Look at Israel Keyes. Had his own business, a partner and young daughter, was by all accounts a good partner and father, a good worker.

He'd been travelling all over the US, hiding his tracks, burying kill kits (weapons, rope, duct tape, plus cash so he left no tracks) FOR YEARS, to this day the authorities don't know how many people he killed, or even where. He's admitted to a few, that's it. Then after exactly one year in custody he killed himself.

It's thought he decompensated towards the end as he abducted, raped and killed someone close to his home, and got caught.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if he was seen as normal in that environment then perhaps that environment needs to be changed


Exactly.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Anyway, for all the people saying they can't imagine anyone doing anything like this, all I can say is that your brain probably isn't wired like his is.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if he was seen as normal in that environment then perhaps that environment needs to be changed


Whilst ever the police continue to police themselves, the environment may never change.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if he was seen as normal in that environment then perhaps that environment needs to be changed


Yep. How many times do we hear excuses made for blokes who act creepy, like "Oh, he's just lonely" or "Oh, that's what men do!" That's so insulting to the millions of decent men who wouldn't patronise, objectify or treat a woman like shit. And it's not good enough. It shouldn't be "what men do".


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Anyway, for all the people saying they can't imagine anyone doing anything like this, all I can say is that your brain probably isn't wired like his is.


Thank god!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Yep. How many times do we hear excuses made for blokes who act creepy, like "Oh, he's just lonely" or "Oh, that's what men do!" That's so insulting to the millions of decent men who wouldn't patronise, objectify or treat a woman like shit. And it's not good enough. It shouldn't be "what men do".


That's just X
That's how he is
Just ignore him 
He's just joking
Don't be so serious/lighten up
Well you're pretty/dressed nice, what do you expect?
Be nice to him, he finds it hard talking to women

So many excuses, not one of them is taking their 'mate' aside with a 'don't speak to women like that/behave like that'.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Latest on WhatsAppGate:

5 serving, one former officer under investigation. Two forces other than the Met involved








						Sarah Everard: Gross misconduct probe into Couzens WhatsApp group
					

Sarah Everard's killer is believed to have been in a chat with officers sharing "discriminatory" content.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Here's a suggestion, set up an independent vetting body to handle all vetting for new and transferring policy officers. Make sure any person involved except as a witness in any suspect situation or incidental, even peripherally, has their application flagged for a deeper investigation.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 1, 2021)

I think they currently don't get vetted at all when transferring, unless they're going to a job deemed "sensitive", such as firearms.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 1, 2021)

The advice to 'stop a bus', although it's obviously not a solution to murderers being in the police force, is actually good advice to anyone feeling threatened, because the buses are filming everything. Couzens was caught so quickly because a bus camera image from the route Sarah was walking was clear enough to show the number plate of Couzens' hire car. This is unusual...normally the image is too fuzzy. If it hadn't been for that bus camera Couzens might have gone on to kill more women. 









						How police caught Sarah Everard's killer and discovered he was one of their own
					

CCTV footage from the night Sarah Everard went missing linked the police officer to a Vauxhall Astra in the area where she was last seen




					inews.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Bits from a piece by Carolyn Criado perez (author of Invisible Women) that is in the telegraph today.


----------



## Thora (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The advice to 'stop a bus', although it's obviously not a solution to murderers being in the police force, is actually good advice to anyone feeling threatened, because the buses are filming everything. Couzens was caught so quickly because a bus camera image from the route Sarah was walking was clear enough to show the number plate of Couzens' hire car. This is unusual...normally the image is too fuzzy. If it hadn't been for that bus camera Couzens might have gone on to kill more women.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bus drivers aren't going to stop any time someone flags them down though.  I'd imagine bus drivers would be even less likely to stop and get in the middle of a threatening situation too.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> The advice to 'stop a bus', although it's obviously not a solution to murderers being in the police force, is actually good advice to anyone feeling threatened, because the buses are filming everything. Couzens was caught so quickly because a bus camera image from the route Sarah was walking was clear enough to show the number plate of Couzens' hire car. This is unusual...normally the image is too fuzzy. If it hadn't been for that bus camera Couzens might have gone on to kill more women.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well yes and no. 

Now that he's been caught using bus camera images anyone thinking of doing a similar crime will simply choose an area to look for victims away from bus routes and CCTV cameras.

Also, there's plenty of places without night buses or services running infrequently enough that it would not be the work of a genius to determine when buses were around and just avoid them.

Buses are not a magic bullet for this type of thing, and for the Met to suggest they could be is laughable.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I once tried to flag down a bus as I was being chased down Coldharbour Lane by a bunch of teenagers I’d stopped beating up a younger kid, driver simply ignored me.. luckily there was a police car a bit further up the road and the kids scarpered when I managed to attract their attention.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

This "flag down a bus" crap just seems like an effort to shift blame away from the police for its massive failures - "If you think there's something off about your arrest, why not try flagging down one of the buses that are constantly driving up and down every road in the land night and day?"


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think they currently don't get vetted at all when transferring, unless they're going to a job deemed "sensitive", such as firearms.


Then that should change. Easy way for a force to offload a problem otherwise.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Well yes and no.
> 
> Now that he's been caught using bus camera images anyone thinking of doing a similar crime will simply choose an area to look for victims away from bus routes and CCTV cameras.
> 
> ...


That's another thing I find odd about this case. I know coppers aren't all renowned for being bright, but you'd have thought that anyone with even the most basic grasp of investigative techniques would understand enough to e.g. keep away from CCTV, be aware of cell siting of phones, not provide their real details to the hire company, leave a trail of their movements through card payments, bury a body on their own land, etc.  Maybe he was thick, maybe he was complacent having got away with similar before, or maybe it was just the arrogance that nobody would believe it was him.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> This "flag down a bus" crap just seems like an effort to shift blame away from the police for its massive failures - "If you think there's something off about your arrest, why not try flagging down one of the buses that are constantly driving up and down every road in the land night and day?"



Call 999 and when asked for which service, say Bus


----------



## Thora (Oct 1, 2021)

We just don't need any more "how not to get raped and murdered" advice.  Every woman and girl I'm sure knows all the what to wear, have your hair, where to go, who to go with, what to drink, how to hold your drink, where to park, how to unlock your car, where to sit on public transport, how to respond to men if you don't want to get raped and murdered advice.  How not to get raped and murdered by the police advice doesn't help.

Advice on how to increase the chance of your body being recovered, dna evidence being found or your attacker being prosecuted (text your location, take a photo of his number plate, position yourself near cameras, scratch him) is particularly unwelcome.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 1, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I note that the judge dismissed the significance of the claims of depression in fairly short order, too.


I suffer from depression. 

So far as I'm aware, the symptoms don't include kidnap, rape, murder and burning a body.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Thora said:


> We just don't need any more "how not to get raped and murdered" advice.  Every woman and girl I'm sure knows all the what to wear, have your hair, where to go, who to go with, what to drink, how to hold your drink, where to park, how to unlock your car, where to sit on public transport, how to respond to men if you don't want to get raped and murdered advice.  How not to get raped and murdered by the police advice doesn't help.
> 
> Advice on how to increase the chance of your body being recovered, dna evidence being found or your attacker being prosecuted (text your location, take a photo of his number plate, position yourself near cameras, scratch him) is particularly unwelcome.


'get in car'
'hold on, I just have to take a photo of your number plate'
'oh ok, but hurry up'
Click
'all done'

Stupid advice for the most part, that I hope not to see on this thread.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I shouldn't have laughed, but it was the hollow type of laughter.


AnnO'Neemus said:


> I suffer from depression.
> 
> So far as I'm aware, the symptoms don't include kidnap, rape, murder and burning a body.


----------



## Thora (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> 'get in car'
> 'hold on, I just have to take a photo of your number plate'
> 'oh ok, but hurry up'
> Click
> ...


It's more often advice about getting taxis - take a photo of the number plate so if you go missing they'll be able to find the driver.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I suffer from depression.
> 
> So far as I'm aware, the symptoms don't include kidnap, rape, murder and burning a body.


No, quite.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I suffer from depression.
> 
> So far as I'm aware, the symptoms don't include kidnap, rape, murder and burning a body.


Indeed. I’ve had depression for decades without doing any of that. I’ve never even stolen a bottle of wine.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner. 

*she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman. 











						Sarah Everard murder: Police boss Philip Allott urged to quit over comments
					

Commissioner Philip Allott said women "need to be streetwise" in the wake of the Sarah Everard case.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


Oh for fuck's sake...


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

that was this guy. its a political role, he represents the conservative party.


----------



## Voley (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


For fucks sake.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 1, 2021)

See how that works out with any arrests at the next candlelit vigil.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Yeah, how dare she trust the police.

Wanker.


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


All her own fault clearly. There's been loads of offensive stuff written round this but that is about as victim blaming as it gets. FFS.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 1, 2021)

Lets forget the size difference between them, too.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 1, 2021)

Thora said:


> Bus drivers aren't going to stop any time someone flags them down though.  I'd imagine bus drivers would be even less likely to stop and get in the middle of a threatening situation too.


I'm suggesting standing in the road in front of them, not waving at them from the pavement. The 20mph limit makes this safer than it used to be. And the bus driver doesn't need to leave the safety of the bus. Just the deterrent effect of the camera and of the driver being a witness might be enough to stop the aggressor.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> That's another thing I find odd about this case. I know coppers aren't all renowned for being bright, but you'd have thought that anyone with even the most basic grasp of investigative techniques would understand enough to e.g. keep away from CCTV, be aware of cell siting of phones, not provide their real details to the hire company, leave a trail of their movements through card payments, bury a body on their own land, etc.  Maybe he was thick, maybe he was complacent having got away with similar before, or maybe it was just the arrogance that nobody would believe it was him.


Could have been arrogant enough for sure, could have been decompensating (also suggested by the indecent exposure event a few days before).

Also probably not as clever as he thought he was.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

Kate Wilson connecting things together:



> ...The police hide behind the narrative of the “rogue officer” to avoid accountability for the culture of toxic misogyny that they harbour within their ranks. *Nothing makes that point more clearly than the rush to deny that Wayne Couzens was in any way representative of the police service*. Cressida’ Dick said in June that the Met was home to the occasional “bad ’un”....





> ...The Macpherson inquiry found the Met police to be institutionally racist. The inquiry into the Daniel Morgan case found them to be “institutionally corrupt”. *I have no doubt it is a matter of time before they are recognised to be institutionally sexist*. This lack of accountability has got to stop. That does not simply mean calling for resignations. Cressida Dick’s resignation will not address these systemic problems that go back decades. What is required is a serious rethink and root-and-branch changes to the Metropolitan police service, an institution that is, in my opinion, beyond redemption.








						Kate Wilson: after spy cops case the Met is beyond redemption | Undercover police and policing | The Guardian
					

The woman at the centre of a human rights claim against police gives her response to the ruling




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'm suggesting standing in the road in front of them, not waving at them from the pavement. The 20mph limit makes this safer than it used to be. And the bus driver doesn't need to leave the safety of the bus. Just the deterrent effect of the camera and of the driver being a witness might be enough to stop the aggressor.


Risky. Getting hit by a bus at 20mph is not going to be pretty.


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'm suggesting standing in the road in front of them, not waving at them from the pavement. The 20mph limit makes this safer than it used to be. And the bus driver doesn't need to leave the safety of the bus. Just the deterrent effect of the camera and of the driver being a witness might be enough to stop the aggressor.


So the choice is potentially get attacked by a police officer or get run over by a bus? (Assuming there are buses on your route and one happens to be going past at an opportune moment.) I don't think you've really thought this through, David Clapson .

ETA Really, I just want to be able to walk home in peace.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'm suggesting standing in the road in front of them, not waving at them from the pavement. The 20mph limit makes this safer than it used to be. And the bus driver doesn't need to leave the safety of the bus. Just the deterrent effect of the camera and of the driver being a witness might be enough to stop the aggressor.


perhaps a 999 call could get an ambulance to the site for just after the collision takes place


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Risky. Getting hit by a bus at 20mph is not going to be pretty.


No. But at least the driver is probably concentrating and not drunk.  The stopping distance from 20mph is very short. Sometimes when I've been threatened in Brixton I've deterred people by saying 'I don't think you want to assault me with that camera over there'. Now I can also say 'we're being filmed by  that bus, I don't think you wan to...etc.'  That's the only point I'm trying to make here. I don't think many of us were aware of bus dashcams until Couzens was caught by this one. As I said before, buses are not a solution to rapists and murderers being in the police force.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

the whole bus thing was a desperate attempt to distract, part of their attempt to distance themselves from him.


----------



## Thora (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'm suggesting standing in the road in front of them, not waving at them from the pavement. The 20mph limit makes this safer than it used to be. And the bus driver doesn't need to leave the safety of the bus. Just the deterrent effect of the camera and of the driver being a witness might be enough to stop the aggressor.


Sure, I'll add _jump in front of a bus_ to my list of helpful don't get raped tips 

Then next time some silly lady is abducted we can all say "but why didn't she just jump in front of a bus?"


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> the whole bus thing was a desperate attempt to distract, part of their attempt to distance themselves from him.



I just saw about that.  That was fucking unbelievable.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 1, 2021)

Has Couzens acknowledged that he staged a fake COVID arrest, or is Commissioner Shithead going on conjecture when he blames SarahEverard for her own murder?


----------



## Sue (Oct 1, 2021)

Thora said:


> Sure, I'll add _jump in front of a bus_ to my list of helpful don't get raped tips
> 
> Then next time some silly lady is abducted we can all say "but why didn't she just jump in front of a bus?"


(We really need a rolleyes/what the actual fuck reaction thing.)


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 1, 2021)

Sue said:


> So the choice is potentially get attacked by a police officer or get run over by a bus? (Assuming there are buses on your route and one happens to be going past at an opportune time.) I don't think you've really thought this through, David Clapson .
> 
> ETA Really, I just want to be able to walk home in peace.


That's pretty obvious. Even I, as a man, can comprehend this. I have thought this through, a great deal. Who else has even bothered to look up how Couzens was caught?  If it makes you feel better to have a pile on, go ahead. I'm past caring. I've said what I wanted, which is to point out how you and I can use a bus to save ourselves.


----------



## killer b (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> have a pile on


I think you should step away from this thread david


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Has Couzens acknowledged that he staged a fake COVID arrest, or is Commissioner Shithead going on conjecture when he blames SarahEverard for her own murder?


Dont know if he's said anything at all. 
The 'advice' that man came up with, to resist arrest from a police showing you a warrant, is really terrible advice.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> That's pretty obvious. Even I, as a man, can comprehend this. I have thought this through, a great deal. Who else has even bothered to look up how Couzens was caught?  If it makes you feel better to have a pile on, go ahead. I'm past caring. I've said what I wanted, which is to point out how you and I can use a bus to save ourselves.


how many times have you placed yourself in front of a moving bus? at night? even as a man surely you can see it's a fucking stupid idea


----------



## Voley (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> the whole bus thing was a desperate attempt to distract, part of their attempt to distance themselves from him.


It's a ridiculous own goal and admission of failure on their part. That they don't see this is part of the problem. 

Whoever has the job of sorting this awful organisation out - and it really can't be Cressida Dick - has got their work cut out for them.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

the crazed nature of the statements being made today (women need to learn about arrest legislation, and they need to flag down busses etc etc) I do find it astonishing that they have had half a year to try to come up with some sort of coherent line but instead have not even tried to do that, are just flailing about panicking in public.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> the crazed nature of the statements being made today (women need to learn about arrest legislation, and they need to flag down busses etc etc) I do find it astonishing that they have had half a year to try to come up with some sort of coherent line but instead have not even tried to do that, are just flailing about panicking in public.


anything but accept responsibility themselves
sometimes sorry really is the hardest word


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

Voley said:


> Whoever has the job of sorting this awful organisation out


It’s not just the Met, though, is it?  What do we (men or women) now do _anywhere in the country_ when approached by a police officer?

Suggestions _from the Met_ include:

Run away
Be Street wise
Catch a bus
Phone the Police
Check their warrant card (of no use in Sarah’s case)
Ask searching questions

If they can’t see that this has completely pulled the rug out from under the notion of consent for Policing, then they’re even more fucked than they look.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

In my experiences, buses won't always stop at an actual bus stop, let alone anywhere else.

David Clapson it's not a pile on. But you must know by now that any suggestion of a remotely impractical nature are going to get short shrift on urban at the best of times, let alone in the midst of 'handy tips' to stop people getting murdered because it's obviously their fault that happens.


----------



## baldrick (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> It’s not just the Met, though, is it?  What do we (men or women) now do _anywhere in the country_ when approached by a police officer?
> 
> Suggestions _from the Met_ include:
> 
> ...


And as if any of this advice is helpful for minority ethnic people who are in some measure of danger from the police even without them being sex offenders.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

xenon said:


> It's so tone deaf and dense isn't it.


It's just so ridiculous.

The actual police are saying, if you feel unsafe flag down a bus'


----------



## Looby (Oct 1, 2021)

Thora said:


> It's more often advice about getting taxis - take a photo of the number plate so if you go missing they'll be able to find the driver.


Someone mentioned the other day that women pull out hair in taxis so their DNA might be found. I mean fucking hell, women are getting into cars and leaving evidence in case they are raped and/or murdered. 

Honestly, this fucking bullshit.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Oct 1, 2021)

Jesus FUCKING Christ.  Yet again women are being told how to behave.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

baldrick said:


> And as if any of this advice is helpful for minority ethnic people who are in some measure of danger from the police even without them being sex offenders.


Exactly.  People of colour are killed by police officers _who are not on their own_.


----------



## souljacker (Oct 1, 2021)

Anyone who has had any dealings with the police knows it's utterly ludicrous to even question their motives or ask why they are trying to arrest or question you. If you ask for or attempt any of the things the met are suggesting then you are more likely just to get nicked anyway. And that's when the cop isn't a kidnapping rapist murderer. It's just ludicrous to suggest asking for another copper to come and help or to flag down a bus. The only people who could ever suggest this are cunts who have been found out IMO.


----------



## baldrick (Oct 1, 2021)

Looby said:


> Someone mentioned the other day that women pull out hair in taxis so their DNA might be found. I mean fucking hell, women are getting into cars and leaving evidence in case they are raped and/or murdered.
> 
> Honestly, this fucking bullshit.


I'm sure there was a murder case where a prostituted woman shoved lipsticks and things from her bag under the front seat of the car while she was being driven to a remote location. She knew, just like Sarah did.


----------



## andysays (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


So much of what's been in the media about this case in the past 24 hours appears to be a combination of (attempted) damage limitation and what comes across as simple victim blaming.

I've always known the police were institutionally corrupt and self serving, but this just seems...

...words fail me.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

Athos said:


> That's another thing I find odd about this case. I know coppers aren't all renowned for being bright, but you'd have thought that anyone with even the most basic grasp of investigative techniques would understand enough to e.g. keep away from CCTV, be aware of cell siting of phones, not provide their real details to the hire company, leave a trail of their movements through card payments, bury a body on their own land, etc.  Maybe he was thick, maybe he was complacent having got away with similar before, or maybe it was just the arrogance that nobody would believe it was him.



You're making the mistake of thinking that he was governed by rational cognitive level thinking rather than perverse fantasies. He brutally raped and murdered a young woman. Likely it was the thrill of the risk, or a part of him wanted to be caught.


----------



## quimcunx (Oct 1, 2021)

If Sarah had tried to resist by asking searching questions etc he may have decided there was too much attention and not gone through with it (possibly) or just bundled her into the car anyway.  IME there would have been next to no pedestrians there at that time and people in cars only pass for a second and are unlikely to clock anything suspicious until after the fact, if at all.  She did nothing wrong by complying with a police officer's commands. Resisting arrest rarely improves the situation for people apprehended by the police.

The advice is doubly meaningless if it is not coupled with advice/directives to male officers not to try and arrest women who are not in immediate danger or a danger to others when they are patrolling on their own, to patiently wait for another officer to arrive, to patiently allow the woman to phone 999 or whatever and not get all offended about being 'accused of being a killer'.  Where is that advice?


----------



## nogojones (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> that was this guy. its a political role, he represents the conservative party.


Tory police and crime commissioners all seem to be cut from the same cloth.






						Andy Coles - Powerbase
					






					powerbase.info


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 1, 2021)

Advice from banks tell You that they will never do certain things or ask fur certain information to give you a bit of confidence in dealing with them


The Filth and their management advise you to be streetwise, cos they are not sure their staff are honest

Twats


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> You're making the mistake of thinking that he was governed by rational cognitive level thinking rather than perverse fantasies. He brutally raped and murdered a young woman. Likely it was the thrill of the risk, or a part of him wanted to be caught.


Yeah, and I guess I should be grateful that it makes no sense to me.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Whatever 'streetwise' means.

I would antipate that the number of women carrying a weapon increases if it hasn't already, for example.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

I haven't had extensive experience with the police or "authority", but my feelings about them has been shaped by my treatment so perhaps it is worth sharing. I was detained three times while suffering from bipolar, the first time a quite small and not at all threatening female police officer sort of talked me down while her numerous larger male colleagues just wanted to physically force me into their van. 

The second time four large policemen removed me from my upstairs home office, so violently that our banisters were broken, and in front of my then very young son who was traumatised as a result. 

The third time five large policemen came to take me away (a restraint request having been sent from the hospital from which I had escaped, I had been told that my son was very ill and I simply went home to check on him) they were talked down from excess aggression by my very calm neighbour, that was three police cars with their lights on outside my house, my neighbours all out on the pavement enjoying the drama. 

The very first time I went to hospital I was forcibly restrained by four nurses face down onto the ground and sedated, I was very ill but the way they "handled me" bothered me for a long time. I was forcibly sedated on another occasion and it was handled much better (standing up). Mental health nurses are trained in restraint, sometimes they do it well, other times less so.         

My feeling about policemen is that they resort to violence quickly and are used with all their tools to getting their way. This violence, its acceptance that it is a part of the job, can't be healthy and that they pretty much always win gives them a sense of superiority. When I am well I simply don't answer back to a policeman because I know they will always be right. A small example, going in the back seat of a police car back to my hospital I saw we were doing 80 on a narrow A road, no blue lights on. I complained I didn't feel safe, the two policemen in the front couldn't have cared less.    

I do think they often feel they are the law, or at least are above the law, and whatever they do is right, it is a dangerous arrogance. I am not sure this arrogance played a part in Sarah Everard's murder but Wayne Couzens certainly must have thought he could get away with it. I doubt this was the first time Couzens raped someone, I think more will come out.


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Whatever 'streetwise' means.
> 
> I would antipate that the number of women carrying a weapon increases if it hasn't already, for example.


Streetwise means that when an actual serving policeman with a warrant card and standard issue handcuffs arrests you using the correct procedure, you should know that he's actually a murderer. Surely that's obvious?


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> the whole bus thing was a desperate attempt to distract, part of their attempt to distance themselves from him.



It’s victim blaming. Essentially saying it’s the woman’s fault for being murdered as she didn’t flag down a bus. Absolutely disgusting.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

And anyone who's has any dealings whatsoever with police on the street would know that they regularly exceed the extent of their powers and don't take kindly to anything but unquestioning obedience.  Unless you are absolutely and demonstrably all over the detail of the law (and, probably, a straight, white, able-bodied male), any hint of non-compliance will likely see you nicked and probably roughed up in the process.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

In case anyone does still think this is a one off or a UK only problem, this article has just popped up on the BBC about a police officer in France:









						French ex-officer's DNA ends 35-year murder hunt
					

François Vérove took his life before he could be questioned and provide a DNA sample.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




He is likely the killer of Cecile Bloch, a big case in Paris.

Unfortunately, he is beyond justice in this world, his body was found in a rental property and is being linked to a number of murders through DNA. It is likely he committed other crimes.


----------



## RainbowTown (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


 
What an appallingly offensive and insensitive comment to make. And also, with regards to the second part of the quote, extremely patronising towards women in general. '*Perhaps women need to consider in terms of the legal process, to just learn a bit about that legal process'*.  I mean, what the hell? No, the police can try and spin as much damage limitation as they want, but the one single truth remains this: this young woman died an awful, desperate and lonely death at the hands of one of their own. All for walking along a street. And no amount of excuses or upcoming inquiries or bullshit 'advice' (stop a bus!?! ) can alter that fact.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I'm sorry, I'm a woman. I was looking for a bus.


Poot said:


> Streetwise means that when an actual serving policeman with a warrant card and standard issue handcuffs arrests you using the correct procedure, you should know that he's actually a murderer. Surely that's obvious?


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> In case anyone does still think this is a one off or a UK only problem, this article has just popped up on the BBC about a police officer in France:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just saw the same story.








						Paris serial killer of 80s and 90s was ex-police officer, DNA shows
					

François Vérove took his own life and mentioned crimes in suicide note after being called in for questioning




					www.theguardian.com
				




A police uniform, has to be the easiest route to wielding power over other people (& your intended victims). 
Not saying these men joined the police as a ruse, but maybe the job being attractive to people drawn to assuming that position of authority and control over others is part of the problem.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I have been threatened with being arrested for perjury by a policeman, simply for not giving the answer he wanted. I found the whole experience intimidating and stressful and I was compliant.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

nogojones said:


> Tory police and crime commissioners all seem to be cut from the same cloth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's a particularly salient example, because he also lied in statements to the Undercover Policing Inquiry that he had not pursued, initiated and had intimate, sexual relationships with targeted women whilst undercover (he had). Even now he doesn't give the impression of considering the women he abused as people.

Coles went on to write the handbook used to teach recruits to his unit on the finer points of working undercover, right down to recommending that they have "fleeting and disastrous relationships" to help build up their legend.









						SDS Tradecraft Manual
					

Eveline Lubbers, 23 March 2018 In March 2018, the Undercover Policing Inquiry published the Special Demonstration Squad Tradecraft Manual, written in 1995, and updated in 1996. It was authored by A…



					specialbranchfiles.uk
				




ETA:

I see his brother's weighing in too


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just saw the same story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Alain Lamare, a French gendarme who was also a would-be serial killer of women in the 1970s/1980s, participated in the investigation into his own crimes. 

He wasn't suspected for a long time, even after incredibly odd, troubling behaviour and sometimes appearing alone at the scene of a crime before anyone else.

He is still alive.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

Just what is meant to happen once the bus has been flagged down?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> Just what is meant to happen once the bus has been flagged down?


the bus driver will take control of the scene and summon such assistance as they deem necessary for the preservation of the queen's peace


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the bus driver will take control of the scene and summon such assistance as they deem necessary for the preservation of the queen's peace


No words, are there?


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

It is so bizarre that I am struggling not to laugh despite the grotesque nature of it. It's so totally out there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> No words, are there?


there are some words but calling them fucking wankers and so on doesn't really advance matters


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 1, 2021)

quimcunx said:


> If Sarah had tried to resist by asking searching questions etc he may have decided there was too much attention and not gone through with it (possibly) or just bundled her into the car anyway.  IME there would have been next to no pedestrians there at that time and people in cars only pass for a second and are unlikely to clock anything suspicious until after the fact, if at all.  She did nothing wrong by complying with a police officer's commands. Resisting arrest rarely improves the situation for people apprehended by the police.
> 
> The advice is doubly meaningless if it is not coupled with advice/directives to male officers not to try and arrest women who are not in immediate danger or a danger to others when they are patrolling on their own, to patiently wait for another officer to arrive, to patiently allow the woman to phone 999 or whatever and not get all offended about being 'accused of being a killer'.  Where is that advice?


Agree 100% 
Advice shouldn't be directed at women to modify their behaviour (yet again - don't get drunk, don't wear certain clothes, don't go out at night, flag down a bus FFS) but directed at the police to modify their arrest procedures as an attempt to regain some trust. They are the ones currently and rightly undergoing a crisis of public confidence so it should be incumbent on them to change their behaviour - why can't they see this?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)




----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It is so bizarre that I am struggling not to laugh despite the grotesque nature of it. It's so totally out there.



It’s like a weird brain fart - she went on to talk about “suspecting the officer isn’t who they say they are”.  

It’s really confused.


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 1, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> It is so bizarre that I am struggling not to laugh despite the grotesque nature of it. It's so totally out there.


The 'flag down a bus' suggestion, the denials that Couzens was a police officer, the suggestions that Sarah Everard wasn't 'streetwise' enough (despite a witness at the trial stating that she was extremely streetwise and cautious) and that women should know more about police procedure... then if we recall the assaults on women at the vigil - FFS it's as if they are wilfully aiming for the worst PR possible. Don't they have media advisors?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the bus driver will take control of the scene and summon such assistance as they deem necessary for the preservation of the queen's peace


If necessary, they will draft in local posties to create a perimeter, direct a dustbin lorry crew to preserve the scene, and task supermarket workers to conduct house to house inquiries.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> It’s like a weird brain fart - she went on to talk about “suspecting the officer isn’t who they say they are”.
> 
> It’s really confused.



She's talking about herself.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

The Bus seems to have been edited out of the official advice now.


			https://www.met.police.uk/notices/met/our-response-to-issues-raised-by-the-crimes-of-wayne-couzens/


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> The Bus seems to have been edited out of the official advice now.
> 
> 
> https://www.met.police.uk/notices/met/our-response-to-issues-raised-by-the-crimes-of-wayne-couzens/


Verifying an officer's identity and intentions​It is unusual for a single plain clothes police officer to engage with anyone. If that does happen, you should then expect to see other officers arrive shortly afterwards.

If you do find yourself in an interaction with a sole police officer and you are on your own, ask that officer for proof of identity and intentions. Questions like:


Where are your colleagues?
Where have you come from?
Why are you here?
Exactly why are you stopping or talking to me?

Given that Couzens was who he said he was, I think we need a number of assurances from the Police:

1. that they will from now on only kidnap, rape and murder women when then are off duty, and alone.  Officers will not act in pairs to murder women. 

2. That such searching questions will not be met with hostility, brutality or lethal force.

3. That only plain clothed officers should be seen as a threat.  Uniformed officers will not attempt to kidnap, assault, rape or murder anyone.

4.  That if you are not a woman, you have nothing to fear from police officers at any time.

There may be more that I haven’t thought of, but I do think they need to clarify these points.

(I’m not taking this lightly in any way.  They are inviting this level of cynicism, and if journalists aren’t thinking these thoughts, and asking these questions, why the fuck not?)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 1, 2021)

IRL asking those 4 Q to a copper in the early hours might rile rather than placate him.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

The fact that his colleagues called him The Rapist for a laugh, I wish that was the main story.
That’s what journalists needed to keep coming back to if there was any chance of actual change imo.

All this noise & nonsense about identifying fake police officers is a sick attempt to avoid talking about the culture within which he, a policeman, was able to carry on.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> IRL asking those 4 Q to a copper in the early hours might rile rather than placate him.


Precisely.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the bus driver will take control of the scene and summon such assistance as they deem necessary for the preservation of the queen's peace


A bus conductor then?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> IRL asking those 4 Q to a copper in the early hours might rile rather than placate him.



And there's nothing coppers like less than people who know their rights.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> A bus conductor then?


My mum always used to tell me to look for a mummy if I was alone and worried about someone’s behaviour.  So maybe the bus driver will summon mummies.

Jesus. The anger and despair I feel at the whole idea is churning me up inside. I can physically feel it.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> IRL asking those 4 Q to a copper in the early hours might rile rather than placate him.


It’s really fucking dangerous advice imo. Issued only in a desperate attempt to distance themselves.

 He was not impersonating a police officer ffs he was one.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> IRL asking those 4 Q to a copper in the early hours might rile rather than placate him.


Yes, I can see those questions not being received well at all. At. All.

'exactly why have you stopped me, officer?'
'because I want to kidnap you'
'wtf???'
'nah, only joking, you are suspected of committing a crime-- got a smart arse uppity one here lads, better not lose her in the system for a couple of days'


----------



## Winot (Oct 1, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> The 'flag down a bus' suggestion, the denials that Couzens was a police officer, the suggestions that Sarah Everard wasn't 'streetwise' enough (despite a witness at the trial stating that she was extremely streetwise and cautious) and that women should known more about police procedure... then if we recall the assaults on women at the vigil - FFS it's as if they are wilfully aiming for the worst PR possible. Don't they have media advisors?


It shows that the ‘deny and protect your own’ culture is so embedded in the organisation that they are incapable of seeing themselves as the problem.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> A bus conductor then?


IKR. It is very hard to resist the temptation to post images of Reg Varney &co, but this is not the thread for it. How the Met cannot see the absurdity and downright danger of what they're suggesting, though, is depressing to say the least. The man was a serving Met officer, FFS.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Dp


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

How does any of the supposed 'advice' given by the Met today actually help?

They keep saying'ask the officer to identify themselves'. HE WAS A SERVING POLICE OFFICER WITH A LEGIT WARRANT CARD THAT HE USED ILLICITLY. What was she supposed to do??


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Verifying an officer's identity and intentions​It is unusual for a single plain clothes police officer to engage with anyone. If that does happen, you should then expect to see other officers arrive shortly afterwards.
> 
> If you do find yourself in an interaction with a sole police officer and you are on your own, ask that officer for proof of identity and intentions. Questions like:
> 
> ...



Ugly stuff. As any of us who've had any oppositional contact with the police know. The denial of reality going on here is enormous, deliberate. Embedding the idea of a reasonable police force in the context of a conviction of an officer for kidnap rape and murder. 

Sick stuff. But you've got to keep propagating that myth.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> How does any of the supposed 'advice' given by the Met today actually help?
> 
> They keep saying'ask the officer to identify themselves'. HE WAS A SERVING POLICE OFFICER WITH A LEGIT WARRANT CARD THAT HE USED ILLICITLY. What was she supposed to do??


Sounds like she was supposed to somehow know he wasn't using his police powers for legit purposes. Because she was a mind reader apparently, and just couldn't be bothered to use that ability. Cressida can go suck shit.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> How does any of the supposed 'advice' given by the Met today actually help?
> 
> They keep saying'ask the officer to identify themselves'. HE WAS A SERVING POLICE OFFICER WITH A LEGIT WARRANT CARD THAT HE USED ILLICITLY. What was she supposed to do??


That’s exactly why they’re doing it. To somehow trick us into thinking maybe he was just some guy who bought a uniform and handcuffs from a sex shop or something. It is beyond belief.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> How does any of the supposed 'advice' given by the Met today actually help?
> 
> They keep saying'ask the officer to identify themselves'. HE WAS A SERVING POLICE OFFICER WITH A LEGIT WARRANT CARD THAT HE USED ILLICITLY. What was she supposed to do??



I can understand getting caught on the hop and saying something dumb and then climbing down pretty much immediately - I thought at first this was the chief blurting something out under pressure - not actual published guidance.  

I just can't even.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

Well obviously you ask them if you can call their control centre and they say ‘yes of course’ and give you the number and stand there waiting whike yo find out if they’re a legitimate, state paid rapist. 

I keep thinking about Sarah’s family. They must be raging when they hear all this shite advice.

oh and I came across this today. One bad apple indeed:

https://www.aol.co.uk/news/cop-fly-kicks-15-old-123400054.html


----------



## DietCokeGirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Everyone in south london has at one time tried to 'flag down a bus' they have just missed or desperately need, standing in the drivers line of sight desperately waving and making pleading gestures, only for the bus driver (who is late, low paid and had enough for peoples bullshit for one day) to drive off without acknowledging their existence. So great advice there, can really see that being effective.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

I have asked a bus driver to open the doors and let me on when he was stopped at the traffic lights immediately after the bus stop. At 4am on my own in Victoria. He ignored me.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Bus drivers across the city will have heard that mad statement setting out their new role as rescuers of women & identifiers of fake police. Do wonder what they thought of it.
Maybe there was a quick phonecall to the Met saying don’t be so completely ridiculous, helping remove that particular bit from the published advice.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I have asked a bus driver to open the doors and let me on when he was stopped at the traffic lights immediately after the bus stop. At 4am on my own in Victoria. He ignored me.


Some of them take the 'only let passengers on at a bus stop' very very literally. I've seen a bus driver who is partially pulled away but stationary because of traffic stopped at lights still refuse to let passengers on.

Plus how many times have we heard of bus drivers refusing to let a lone person on, sometimes even a younger teenager, for not having the fare only for them to be hurt or killed?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

I haven't felt anger like this for a while.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Maybe there was a quick phonecall to the Met saying don’t be so completely ridiculous, helping remove that particular bit from the published advice.



I still see it here.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> I haven't felt anger like this for a while.


Me too. It’s exhausting. Better than feeling despair though.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> I still see it here.


You’re right. Fucking hell.
It’s just gone from today’s version.

Which again repeats ‘if you feel in real danger AND you don’t believe they’re a real police..



			https://www.met.police.uk/notices/met/our-response-to-issues-raised-by-the-crimes-of-wayne-couzens/


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

On R4 today they had an interview with a couple of women and asked them whether their respect for the police had been affected by this. Of course they said it had but one of them said, not in the PCSOs, she still had faith in them, because she knew them well, she had grown up with them and they were well known locally. 

Perhaps more community based policing, where people know their local police might offer a route forward?


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Some of them take the 'only let passengers on at a bus stop' very very literally. I've seen a bus driver who is partially pulled away but stationary because of traffic stopped at lights still refuse to let passengers on.
> 
> Plus how many times have we heard of bus drivers refusing to let a lone person on, sometimes even a younger teenager, for not having the fare only for them to be hurt or killed?


Yeah, basically I was at the stop, trying to figure out the bus timetable, looked up, saw the bus pull up and pull away immediately because I didn’t wave my arm and then stop at the lights. What kind of arsehole does that?


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps more community based policing, where people know their local police might offer a route forward?


How?  Most rapes are not committed by strangers.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2021)

"Look. We know we're as corrupt as fuck and riddled to the core with maggots who hate women because of the culture we've encouraged, but it's women who need to change, adapt to that. Learn some law or something. Hail a taxi."

They are cunts.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> How?  Most rapes are not committed by strangers.


I think it was said because of the length of time the women had known their PCSOs, they had started with visits when the woman was at school, and I think PCSOs usually travel in pairs and are more likely to be women themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

weltweit said:


> On R4 today they had an interview with a couple of women and asked them whether their respect for the police had been affected by this. Of course they said it had but one of them said, not in the PCSOs, she still had faith in them, because she knew them well, she had grown up with them and they were well known locally.
> 
> Perhaps more community based policing, where people know their local police might offer a route forward?


Yeh. But if you go into the neighbouring police area, the next ward or whatnot, how will you know their police? How will you know members of the various centrally organised units like the diplomatic police or tsg? And even if you do go down this neighborhood policing, which I've argued previously is largely for police intelligence, what possible guarantee is there they're not dodgy?


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

I’ve had very little to do with police for a long time, but last time I did it was inside my home, in the middle of the night, and have to say I noticed whilst it was happening that it did help (make the whole thing less frightening) that one of the 2 was a woman. 
It’s not a ‘representation’ thing but made a real difference to my physical safety feeling.
 Those uniforms with all the shiny tools of violence hanging off are just intimidating as hell.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve had very little to do with police for a long time, but last time I did it was inside my home, in the middle of the night, and have to say I noticed whilst it was happening that it did help (make the whole thing less frightening) that one of the 2 was a woman.
> It’s not a ‘representation’ thing but made a real difference to my physical safety feeling.
> Those uniforms with all the shiny tools of violence hanging off are just intimidating as hell.


I agree, that was my experience also.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’ve had very little to do with police for a long time, but last time I did it was inside my home, in the middle of the night, and have to say I noticed whilst it was happening that it did help (make the whole thing less frightening) that one of the 2 was a woman.
> It’s not a ‘representation’ thing but made a real difference to my physical safety feeling.
> Those uniforms with all the shiny tools of violence hanging off are just intimidating as hell.



Can totally identify.  I don't think it's only women that feel safer if a copper is female either.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. But if you go into the neighbouring police area, the next ward or whatnot, how will you know their police? How will you know members of the various centrally organised units like the diplomatic police or tsg? And even if you do go down this neighborhood policing, which I've argued previously is largely for police intelligence, what possible guarantee is there they're not dodgy?


You make good points, but might it be a small improvement do you think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

weltweit said:


> You make good points, but might it be a small improvement do you think?


I don't think it would make any difference to the sort of crimes under discussion. There were neighbourhood policing teams some years back but I don't recall them doing all that much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> Can totally identify.  I don't think it's only women that feel safer if a copper is female either.


Depends who the woman is. I'd feel markedly less safe if Cressida dick or Elaine van Orden was present.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

weltweit said:


> You make good points, but might it be a small improvement do you think?


Only the point about women officers would be likely to make any difference.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 1, 2021)

8ball said:


> Can totally identify.  I don't think it's only women that feel safer if a copper is female either.


Agreed.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> Only the point about women officers would be likely to make any difference.



I dunno, if the coppers were part of the community, known by them and lived among them, it would be hard for their weird alienated culture to persist in the way it does, and people would see them around and stuff, know who they are, it would be harder for a lot of these cases to slip by.  Would mean a significant other changes too and there are complications relating to some units like plain clothes etc. and it clearly doesn't solve everything, but I think there is something there.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

if i was trying to do a desperate silver lining, it would be that at least the Met (and media) are talking about the idea that distrust and fear of the police is understandable and rational.
Focus now is on women, as having a legit reason to feel this way, previously have only heard very guarded noises about why black people might legitimately fear that an encounter with a police officer is not going to proceed along the lines of 'if yr innocent you have nothing fear' and all that .


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

I note with interest that Donna McLean has stated that the undercover officer who targeted her, Carlo Soracchi (who as 'Carlo Neri' initiated an intimate relationship with at least 4 women), was subsequently posted to the same firearms unit as Couzens.


> Why did they turn a blind eye to Couzens’ predatory nature? Why did they ignore the red flags? Was it that same institutional misogyny that led to a tradecraft manual being written on how to deceive women into abusive relationships?



😡









						Opinion: I was deceived into an intimate relationship with a Met Police officer
					

This was no accident, no ‘rogue’ officer taking advantage. This was state-sponsored abuse of women on an enormous scale, and we were never given any answers




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## little_legs (Oct 1, 2021)

It's really reassuring to know that bus drivers hold an inherent power over police and can stop them killing you. 

The  _advice _of this AM is basically assume that the police, and anyone who wants to join, is going to be a piece of shit so it's on you to mitigate that. You can't fix the cops, but things like bodycams, dashcams, and the public regularly filming the police is your best hope.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 1, 2021)

little_legs said:


> It's really reassuring to know that bus drivers hold an inherent power over police and can stop them killing you.
> 
> The  _advice _of this AM is basically assume that the police, and anyone who wants to join, is going to be a piece of shit so it's on you to mitigate that. You can't fix the cops, but things like bodycams, dashcams, and the public regularly filming the police is your best hope.



Well, as my mate found when accused of assaulting a police officer a couple of weeks ago, police body cam footage is wont to go missing.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 1, 2021)

The police really need to stop talking.


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> The police really need to stop talking.


Oh God my local police on my local TV news just suggested shouting if you're not sure about the police officer arresting you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

Poot said:


> Oh God my local police on my local TV news just suggested shouting if you're not sure about the police officer arresting you.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

Poot said:


> Oh God my local police on my local TV news just suggested shouting if you're not sure about the police officer arresting you.


Not sure if he's a rapist murderer or just not sure of he's a real police , did they specify?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not sure if he's a rapist murderer or just not sure of he's a real police , did they specify?


Any or all of the above


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not sure if he's a rapist murderer or just not sure of he's a real police , did they specify?


No. Just shout. Because that will help of course.


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2021)

Poot said:


> Oh God my local police on my local TV news just suggested shouting if you're not sure about the police officer arresting you.



Because there's no such thing as resisting arrest.

FFS.


----------



## A380 (Oct 1, 2021)

Hopefully a by-election for PCC in North Yorks soon.









						Sarah Everard murder: Police boss Philip Allott urged to quit over comments
					

Commissioner Philip Allott said women "need to be streetwise" in the wake of the Sarah Everard case.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

> On one occasion, amid extensive publicity about Everard’s disappearance, he took his family on a day out to the woods, allowing his two children to play close by. On March 8, the day before his arrest, he drove back to the Met’s base in Brompton, west London, where he returned his police equipment, including the murder weapon, to his locker. He kept up the impression of being a family man, calling the dentist about his children hours after dumping the body, and the vet about the family dog on March 5, two minutes before buying rubble bags.
> 
> When he was arrested he initially told officers he had never met Everard but then constructed a web of lies, claiming he was in “financial shit” and took Everard because he was in debt to a Romanian prostitution gang. He admitted the abduction but falsely claimed he handed her over safe and well on a motorway layby to gangsters.
> 
> In a police-recorded interview, played to the court, he said: “[They] threatened to take my family away from me. At that point I was doing what I can for my family and that’s it. I’m off work with stress because I’m here to protect my family.”


Did no one realise he was a total psychopath? I thought the police were supposed to be trained in this stuff. And let’s not forget he had a firearms licence


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

wow. Had not heard any of that before.
Nobody did realise, not his wife even, as far as i understand it.


----------



## Athos (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Did no one realise he was a total psychopath? I thought the police were supposed to be trained in this stuff. And let’s not forget he had a firearms licence


That's the thing, they did recognise he was dodgy, to the extent of giving him the nickname 'The Rapist', but did nothing about it!


----------



## planetgeli (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> wow. Had not heard any of that before.
> Nobody did realise, not his wife even, as far as i understand it.



There's a police video recording of him telling the stupid "I'm in debt to Romanian gangs" story in his home when they first confront him. He comes across as a bit pathetic, not bravado. He probably knew he was fucked there and then though. It's on a BBC news story, though I'm not suggesting you chase it up.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

That thing he said about just wanting to protect his family, that hits a nerve. "he was a devoted family man", "i have daughters, so I am not a threat I am an ally" all that shit.
 I read somewhere that his wife, who has said she can't understand how she missed all the signs that anything was wrong,  silently watched the sentencing via zoom. impossible to imagine what that feels like.


----------



## Poot (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Did no one realise he was a total psychopath? I thought the police were supposed to be trained in this stuff. And let’s not forget he had a firearms licence


And yet they still called him The Rapist.

Talk about having a blind spot.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> wow. Had not heard any of that before.
> Nobody did realise, not his wife even, as far as i understand it.





> Couzens was known as “the rapist” by other officers at times during his career, Sir Tom Winsor, the chief inspector of constabulary, has confirmed.
> 
> Asked on BBC Radio 4’s The World At One if he was aware of Couzens’ reputation as “the rapist”, Sir Tom said: “Yes, I do know that. And [he] also had allegedly a reputation in terms of drug abuse, extreme pornography and other offences of this kind.”



I’m afraid I simply do not believe that his wife believed he was a lovely family man. His colleagues knew he wasn’t. Lovely family men don’t have an extremely violent porn habit, or regularly pay to have sex with women.


----------



## bimble (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I’m afraid I simply do not believe that his wife believed he was a lovely family man. His colleagues knew he wasn’t. Lovely family men don’t have an extremely violent porn habit, or regularly pay to have sex with women.


What you say makes sense. Most likely she chose not to know, to some extent. Unless he was meticulous in keeping his home self separate.


----------



## Looby (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I’m afraid I simply do not believe that his wife believed he was a lovely family man. His colleagues knew he wasn’t. Lovely family men don’t have an extremely violent porn habit, or regularly pay to have sex with women.


People do though don’t they. I know it’s hard to believe but people don’t see/ignore the signs all the time until they can’t. 
Men like that target women, maybe including her.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

I think most serious case reviews (child protection) highlight lack of communication between professionals, the assumption/fantasy that someone else is doing something about it, but also the tendency to denial or unconsciously turning a blind eye - who wants to believe that people you come into contact with can do such terrible things?


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

Sorry I didn’t mean that she was fully aware of what a psychotic misogynist he was but equally I don’t believe he was a lovely kind man. I think he was a coercive threatening arsehole and she was - and is - terrified of him.


----------



## Callie (Oct 1, 2021)

On "the rapist" nickname i wonder if this was from people who specifically interacted and were "mates" with him or people who were mates who talked about him?


----------



## moomoo (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Sorry I didn’t mean that she was fully aware of what a psychotic misogynist he was but equally I don’t believe he was a lovely kind man. I think he was a coercive threatening arsehole and she was - and is - terrified of him.



Pretty sure she said there were no signs. But you might be right. Perhaps she is still scared of him. Or maybe he really was nice to his family and it really did come as a terrible shock. I don’t suppose we’ll ever know.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I think he was a coercive threatening arsehole and she was - and is - terrified of him.




Without being flippant, he was a copper, coppers are often like that so would imagine that people attracted to them either welcome it or are blind to it.


----------



## Looby (Oct 1, 2021)

It’s amazing and shocking to see what people are conditioned to accept as normal in a relationship. Behaviour that is abhorrent and abusive. Accepting of horrific treatment and then the blame. 
Many of us have been taught such awful and damaging messages about love, relationships, sex etc that leave us wide open to gaslighting, coercion and abuse over and over again. 

I saw it every single day in my previous job and with a friend irl for over 20 years. 

Maybe that wasn’t the case here and he really was an expert liar and the mask didn’t slip. I do hope her and her kids have some really good support.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

Me too Looby 

TBH there is so much rage about this and no one can get to him that the safest thing for her to say is that she thought he was a lovely bloke. I live not far from them and the stuff people were posting on her Facebook page was bloody shocking.


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 1, 2021)

Cops initial interview.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Me too Looby
> 
> TBH there is so much rage about this and no one can get to him that the safest thing for her to say is that she thought he was a lovely bloke. I live not far from them and the stuff people were posting on her Facebook page was bloody shocking.



That’s awful


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> That’s awful


She was arrested and not bailed until June. Way after he’d confessed to Sarah’s murder.

I’m amazed she’s stayed in Deal. It’s a bloody small town. I think she must be a very brave woman.


----------



## moomoo (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She was arrested and not bailed until June. Way after he’d confessed to Sarah’s murder.
> 
> I’m amazed she’s stayed in Deal. It’s a bloody small town.



It is. I didn’t know that’s where she lived. Poor woman. I hope people are kind to her now.


----------



## baldrick (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She was arrested and not bailed until June. Way after he’d confessed to Sarah’s murder.
> 
> I’m amazed she’s stayed in Deal. It’s a bloody small town. I think she must be a very brave woman.


Good lord. I hope she has family and friends locally. I hope her kids aren't old enough to be at school yet because that's an ordeal they shouldn't have to face.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 1, 2021)

baldrick said:


> Good lord. I hope she has family and friends locally. I hope her kids aren't old enough to be at school yet because that's an ordeal they shouldn't have to face.


They’re school age.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

moomoo said:


> It is. I didn’t know that’s where she lived. Poor woman. I hope people are kind to her now.


Me too. I can well believe she had no idea about him, considering what a twisted liar he is.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Sorry I didn’t mean that she was fully aware of what a psychotic misogynist he was but equally I don’t believe he was a lovely kind man. I think he was a coercive threatening arsehole and she was - and is - terrified of him.



No, I didn't think you thought that, it's just that I think some things are just too awful to even consider they might be real. There's no reason to think it's very different to the dynamics that have been observed to operate in child protection, which also includes fear of violence.


----------



## BusLanes (Oct 1, 2021)

What I don't quite get is if Cressida Dick isn't to resign now or last time, what on earth is she, her team, the mayor and home secretary actually going to do?

It's been six months and all we seem to have today is a lot of awful advice and "lessons learned".

Can't even be bothered to set up a patsy review


----------



## Cid (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> She was arrested and not bailed until June. Way after he’d confessed to Sarah’s murder.
> 
> I’m amazed she’s stayed in Deal. It’s a bloody small town. I think she must be a very brave woman.



I can imagine moving would be potentially traumatic... Inevitability of people in a new area finding out, kids dealing with new school in that context etc. Vulnerability any way you look at it... Degree of familiarity with place might help. She's also Ukrainian, so may not have many networks outside Deal (in the UK anyway).


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 1, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> What I don't quite get is if Cressida Dick isn't to resign now or last time, what on earth is she, her team, the mayor and home secretary actually going to do?


Nothing. And then a bit more nothing. Until the next time when Dick will swing in to action to defuse the situation and smother the issue, fully backed by the Home Secretary and where is Khan right now btw?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

Paul Manning is an ex-Met copper. By his account the 'one rogue officer' narrative routinely bandied about when things go tits-up is and always has been utter horseshit.

He regularly offers up examples of crimes, corruption and incompetence in the police forces he has worked in, both in the UK and Canada.



(Thread)


----------



## Raheem (Oct 1, 2021)

BusLanes said:


> What I don't quite get is if Cressida Dick isn't to resign now or last time, what on earth is she, her team, the mayor and home secretary actually going to do?


This is the main reason she should go. Things need doing but it won't happen with her in charge.


----------



## Callie (Oct 1, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Paul Manning is an ex-Met copper. By his account the 'one rogue officer' narrative routinely bandied about when things go tits-up is and always has been utter horseshit.
> 
> He regularly offers up examples of crimes, corruption and incompetence in the police forces he has worked in, both in the UK and Canada.
> 
> ...



Does WhatsApp remove the one lone copper thing or enforce it? Does it support the assumption that couzens acted alone outside of the team or was part of a clique/group who accepted the behaviours hence the nickname? Tbf I am not sure on the provenance of the nickname at this point (haven't had time to check)


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

Callie said:


> Does WhatsApp remove the one lone copper thing or enforce it? Does it support the assumption that couzens acted alone outside of the team or was part of a clique/group who accepted the behaviours hence the nickname? Tbf I am not sure on the provenance of the nickname at this point (haven't had time to check)


Im not sure about the WhatsApp group thing, but this in_ i Paper_ certainly indicates a clear meaning to the nickname, and yet seemingly nothing done about him:



> He was reportedly nicknamed “The Rapist” by his colleagues as he made women feel uncomfortable.
> 
> He was reportedly given the monicker by colleagues at the Civil Nuclear Constabulary – his job prior to the Metropolitan Police – because he made female colleagues feel uncomfortable.
> 
> Chief Inspector of Constabulary Sir Tom Winsor on Thursday confirmed the nickname and said the Independent Office for Police Conduct was investigating what other officers knew about Couzens following his conviction.





> Asked on BBC Radio 4’s The World At One if he was aware of Couzens’ reputation as “The Rapist”, Sir Tom said: “Yes, I do know that. And [he] also had allegedly a reputation in terms of drug abuse, extreme pornography and other offences of this kind.”











						Why Wayne Couzens was known as 'The Rapist', the origins of the nickname explained
					

He was reportedly nicknamed 'The Rapist' by his colleagues as he made women feel uncomfortable




					inews.co.uk


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2021)

Callie said:


> Does WhatsApp remove the one lone copper thing or enforce it? Does it support the assumption that couzens acted alone outside of the team or was part of a clique/group who accepted the behaviours hence the nickname? Tbf I am not sure on the provenance of the nickname at this point (haven't had time to check)


Personally I think it removes it as there's three forces involved (3 from the Met, 1 from Norfolk and 1 from the Civil Nuclear Constabulary, plus a former Met officer). That's three for es right there, and I bet a ton of similar threads across similar groups from other forces were deleted over the past 24 hours.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 1, 2021)

There are quite a few (often Canadian, for some reason) women police officer whistleblowers who have in recent years shared some of the horrendous misogyny and threats of sexual violence directed at them by 'colleagues' in things like private group chats.

Effy Zarabi-Majd and Heather McWilliam in particular have documented truly awful culture.



			https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/toronto-police-human-rights-complaint-1.5804937
		










						Toronto cop files complaint over years-long ‘barrage of sexist and racist comments’
					

Toronto police Const. Firouzeh “Effy” Zarabi-Majd alleges she endured years of “demeaning, sexist, racist and Islamophobic comments.”




					www.thestar.com
				




Various here:


			https://twitter.com/i/lists/233953372?s=09


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 1, 2021)

They gave him a character reference.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 1, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They gave him a character reference.


Who and who?


----------



## Glitter (Oct 1, 2021)

Am I getting this wrong, or was it considered to be reasonable that he handed her over to this fake gang. 

‘I just kidnapped her and handed her over because I was in financial shit’ appears to be acceptable. 

This was his carefully crafted and intricate story when questioned. 

Who the fuck lives in a world where ‘I kidnapped her and handed her to gangsters’ is a plausible excuse for anything?


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 1, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Well obviously you ask them if you can call their control centre and they say ‘yes of course’ and give you the number and stand there waiting whike yo find out if they’re a legitimate, state paid rapist.
> 
> I keep thinking about Sarah’s family. They must be raging when they hear all this shite advice.
> 
> ...


Wtf, the guy who took the video "claimed that the girls were confronted by police after they were caught underage in a pub." Jesus fucking Christ. All that for a cheeky underage pint or whatever.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 1, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Wtf, the guy who took the video "claimed that the girls were confronted by police after they were caught underage in a pub." Jesus fucking Christ. All that for a cheeky underage pint or whatever.


Yeah, underage drinking is just like SO MUCH WORSE than kicking the shit out of someone half your size. As if PC McVigilante never enjoyed the odd illicit beer himself before 18, the hypocritical old bastard.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Wtf, the guy who took the video "claimed that the girls were confronted by police after they were caught underage in a pub." Jesus fucking Christ. All that for a cheeky underage pint or whatever.


Yeah a couple of lairy drunk barefoot teenagers. And he jumped out of the van and threw a flying kick at her belly.

The police have a problem not least because they have such a shit rep. No decent person wants to become a copper. Because everyone knows they’re misogynist racist homophobic arseholes


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 2, 2021)

trashpony said:


> Yeah a couple of lairy drunk barefoot teenagers. And he jumped out of the van and theew a flying kick at her belly.
> 
> The police have a problem not least because they have such a shit rep. No decent person wants to become a copper. Because everyone knows they’re misogynist racist homophobic arseholes


Too true. A neighbour's son is a mature student studying criminology because he wants to be a detective and, frankly, the thought of him becoming a copper is disturbing. He's got anger management issues, talks about wanting to punch people, got a bit of a drink problem, possibly a bit of a drug problem. There's an angry powder-keg vibe emanating from him. I'd hope he wouldn't get past a psych eval, but if he does manage to talk his way in, it wouldn't surprise me to see him featured in the news in a decade or so, and not in a good way.

ETA: I've experienced/witnessed a lot of male violence in my life, can usually clock a wrong 'un when I come across one, and my spidey senses are tingling.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

Wonder, in light of this horror, is there any argument for women carrying some kind of weapons? Not necessarily handguns but something they can fend off assailants with?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Wonder, in light of this horror, is there any argument for women carrying some kind of weapons? Not necessarily handguns but something they can fend off assailants with?


I know a few women who carry knives, and I can't strongly object if it makes them feel safer.

But, no, it is not generally a good idea or a solution to anything. I think a woman who produces a knife is, on average, putting themselves at greater risk of violence, and may end up getting stabbed with their own weapon. Plus, I don't think the experience of using a knife on someone is, in reality, something anyone benefits from going through.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Too true. A neighbour's son is a mature student studying criminology because he wants to be a detective and, frankly, the thought of him becoming a copper is disturbing. He's got anger management issues, talks about wanting to punch people, got a bit of a drink problem, possibly a bit of a drug problem. There's an angry powder-keg vibe emanating from him. I'd hope he wouldn't get past a psych eval, but if he does manage to talk his way in, it wouldn't surprise me to see him featured in the news in a decade or so, and not in a good way.
> 
> ETA: I've experienced/witnessed a lot of male violence in my life, can usually clock a wrong 'un when I come across one, and my spidey senses are tingling.




My husband watched part of a show called "Cops".
It was American and the promos for the show were police that where inspired by the show to become cops.

After watching 5-10 minutes, he turned to my son and said that they were a bunch of bullies on a power trip.
Son agreed, and the channel was changed.

I watched a bit one time, cops roaming the beach as the youth was partying.  They were looking for underage drinkers.
I saw a full grown man throw a little blond teenager into the sand and rested his foot on the girl.
He then told the camera that she showed him false id.  He does not have the patience for this type of stuff.

If future cops think this is a recruitment film......

The show was canceled after the George Floyd murder.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I know a few women who carry knives, and I can't strongly object if it makes them feel safer.
> 
> But, no, it is not generally a good idea or a solution to anything. I think a woman who produces a knife is, on average, putting themselves at greater risk of violence, and may end up getting stabbed with their own weapon. Plus, I don't think the experience of using a knife on someone is, in reality, something anyone benefits from going through.



Not generally in favour of anyone being tooled up, be it police or public. As mentioned upthread, more in favour of educating young men and challenging idiotic/gross/misogynist comments from other men (mates/colleagues/random) but there will always be these extremists like the murderer who took Sarah Everard's life.

How can women ever be totally at ease when there are haters/terrorists who are determined to carry out their grim misdeeds?


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

There was a petition in March, about legalising the carrying of pepper spray for self defence purposes (illegal for civilians here but standard issue for police). It was rejected. 
In America it's pretty normal for women to have a spray like that on them when they go out, and/or an alarm that emits a really loud noise, just in case like.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

grim. Ten thousand indecent exposure incidents _reported to police_ in 2019-2020. Vast majority ignored.








						Police log 10,000 indecent exposure cases, but fewer than 600 reach court
					

Exclusive: England and Wales figures show ‘epidemic’ of flashing against women, after allegations against Wayne Couzens emerged




					www.theguardian.com
				



I am really surprised though that they reckon only 1 in 10 women have been 'flashed'. I'd have thought its way more than that.


----------



## Glitter (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> grim. Ten thousand indecent exposure incidents _reported to police_ in 2019-2020. Vast majority ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do unsolicited dick pics count as flashing? Number will shoot up if so.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Who and who?


His colleagues.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Glitter said:


> Do unsolicited dick pics count as flashing? Number will shoot up if so.


Seems like no but it's being discussed / considered, making them count. I can see how thats a minefield, more complex than 'upskirting' & 'revenge porn' which have recently been made illegal.


----------



## QueenOfGoths (Oct 2, 2021)

Glitter said:


> Do unsolicited dick pics count as flashing? Number will shoot up if so.


Plus incidents when it's 'uncertain', two or three times when commuting into work I saw blokes with their dicks hanging out of their shorts/trousers. I couldn't be sure if it was an accident or a deliberate act, hence uncertain, so I didn't report it


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Has happened to me 3 times  and never reported it, twice on the tube in London.
If it ever happened again will report because now belatedly i realise it is serious, not just because of it being a horrible experience but also in that the men who do this they are probably / potentially dangerous people not just some kind of weirdos.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Has happened to me 3 times  and never reported it, twice on the tube in London.
> If it ever happened again will report because now belatedly i realise it is serious, not just because of it being a horrible experience but also in that the men who do this they are probably / potentially dangerous people not just some kind of weirdos.


True. I'm going to admit the one time I saw a flasher, I didn't really see it as a threat. I was a cocky 23-year-old and said "I'd put that away if I were you, you might catch cold!" I dismissed him as a sad attention seeker and didn't really stop to consider at the time that blokes like him don't stop there.


----------



## xenon (Oct 2, 2021)

Glitter said:


> Am I getting this wrong, or was it considered to be reasonable that he handed her over to this fake gang.
> 
> ‘I just kidnapped her and handed her over because I was in financial shit’ appears to be acceptable.
> 
> ...



It’s desperate. The difference between a few years for kidnap and what he’s got now. And as it seems he was someone who used prostitutes, he could use some of that knowledge as a foundation for this lie.
I’ve listened to quite a few police interview tapes, for work many years ago. Nothing as serious as this, but some of the bullshit people come out with is quite astonishing.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

this is spot on, the whole flag down a bus response has been not just absurd but an attempt to distract us from the issue of police abuse of power.

'The problem is not about public confidence about whether these people are police officers or not.
The problem is that they are police officers.'










						Why the advice of the Metropolitan Police that those concerned by wrongful arrest ‘wave down a bus’ is besides the point
					

1st October 2021 The metropolitan police have published statement in response to the public concern about the case of Sarah Everard, who was murdered by a police officer using his police powers. Th…



					davidallengreen.com


----------



## andysays (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> this is spot on, the whole flag down a bus response has been not just absurd but an attempt to distract us from the issue of police abuse of power.
> 
> 'The problem is not about public confidence about whether these people are police officers or not.
> The problem is that they are police officers.'
> ...


I'm not sure if this thread is an appropriate place to discuss it*, but maybe the even deeper problem is not that some individual people get through the vetting procedures and become police officers where we think they shouldn't, but that this case (not just the actions of this one individual, but the whole subsequent process, including the heavy handed policing of vigils and protests, and the attempts to excuse and victim blame) is an (admittedly extreme) example of what the Police are and what the Police do.

* and if it's felt it isn't, I'll start a separate thread to discuss it.


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure if this thread is an appropriate place to discuss it*, but maybe the even deeper problem is not that some individual people get through the vetting procedures and become police officers where we think they shouldn't, but that this case (not just the actions of this one individual, but the whole subsequent process, including the heavy handed policing of vigils and protests, and the attempts to excuse and victim blame) is an (admittedly extreme) example of what the Police are and what the Police do.
> 
> * and if it's felt it isn't, I'll start a separate thread to discuss it.


I think that’s very much the case.  And very much the point.


----------



## Sue (Oct 2, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Wonder, in light of this horror, is there any argument for women carrying some kind of weapons? Not necessarily handguns but something they can fend off assailants with?


Back in the day, some women who didn't use hairspray used to carry it for that purpose (being legal unlike other sprays and its presence in their bag explicable). 

I suspect it's no longer a thing due to the high possibility of your own 'weapon' being used against you. 

Carrying a gun or knife seems like a really dangerous/stupid thing to do.  And again is putting the onus on the potential victim.

(And no weapon would have helped poor Sarah Everard, given she was handcuffed before she presumably knew anything was amiss.)


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 2, 2021)

If we had guns here then it would be the cops doing most of the shooting, that one who tore into the kid with a kick, would have shot her


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> If we had guns here then it would be the cops doing most of the shooting, that one who tore into the kid with a kick, would have shot her


The absence of guns is a myth


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I know a few women who carry knives, and I can't strongly object if it makes them feel safer.
> 
> But, no, it is not generally a good idea or a solution to anything. I think a woman who produces a knife is, on average, putting themselves at greater risk of violence, and may end up getting stabbed with their own weapon. Plus, I don't think the experience of using a knife on someone is, in reality, something anyone benefits from going through.


I suspect the women you know have given the matter some thought and concluded it would be better to be there and possibly be traumatised than not to be there at all.


----------



## Poot (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not sure if this thread is an appropriate place to discuss it*, but maybe the even deeper problem is not that some individual people get through the vetting procedures and become police officers where we think they shouldn't, but that this case (not just the actions of this one individual, but the whole subsequent process, including the heavy handed policing of vigils and protests, and the attempts to excuse and victim blame) is an (admittedly extreme) example of what the Police are and what the Police do.
> 
> * and if it's felt it isn't, I'll start a separate thread to discuss it.


One of my colleagues was briefly a police officer. I asked him about it a while ago. He got out asap because he realised that every single person there was 'an inadequate' as he put it. They were there to take out their powerlessness on society. At 6'3" and being a bit of a gentle giant type who's actually quite naive and really wanted to help people, he got very sick of their shit very, very quickly and left. 

Fragile egos and criticism do not make for a happy outcome. Hence the police actions at the vigil. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of that rather than less. The police are likely to double down if anything, at least that's my prediction.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

Poot said:


> One of my colleagues was briefly a police officer. I asked him about it a while ago. He got out asap because he realised that every single person there was 'an inadequate' as he put it. They were there to take out their powerlessness on society. At 6'3" and being a bit of a gentle giant type who's actually quite naive and really wanted to help people, he got very sick of their shit very, very quickly and left.
> 
> Fragile egos and criticism do not make for a happy outcome. Hence the police actions at the vigil. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of that rather than less. The police are likely to double down if anything, at least that's my prediction.


This reminded me of some slightly-pissed musings I was having last night.

Suppose someone, aware of what happened, were to be transported back in time to that night - to the moment captured on the CCTV when Sarah Everard was "arrested". What would they do? What *could* they do. Armed with hindsight, I imagine it wouldn't be quite as hard to walk up and challenge the arrest...but what then? The perpetrator may well get spooked, and do a runner. You might call the police - interesting conversation - and say "I think someone just tried to abduct someone by flashing their warrant card. They've got abduction stuff in the car" (you'd know this, because you read the sentencing report before you travelled back in time).

Does anyone think that there's much likelihood that this would even be followed up? Or that a hue-and-cry might ensue to prevent another woman, somewhere else, being abducted? Given the way the police have been talking since the sentencing, my feeling is that it'd be dismissed, or waved away - there'd be a denial that it could possibly be an active police officer, that the warrant card was real, or that any threat existed.

With policing as it is right now, I'd say that the chances of stopping something like this happening again are just as minimal as they were before Sarah Everard was abducted. It's not even "closing ranks" - I think there is an institutional perception that this kind of thing just doesn't happen. Until it does, and even then they'll busily "other" the offender, and carry on exactly the same. The only thing, I think, that makes this a comparatively rare event is the fact that most people, even coppers, don't get to the stage where abducting and murdering women is an option. But that's no thanks to the police, their processes, or their willingness to take a very hard look at themselves.

We are no further on since this prosecution than we were before it happened, and I see no appetite for change within police institutions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> This reminded me of some slightly-pissed musings I was having last night.
> 
> Suppose someone, aware of what happened, were to be transported back in time to that night - to the moment captured on the CCTV when Sarah Everard was "arrested". What would they do? What *could* they do. Armed with hindsight, I imagine it wouldn't be quite as hard to walk up and challenge the arrest...but what then? The perpetrator may well get spooked, and do a runner. You might call the police - interesting conversation - and say "I think someone just tried to abduct someone by flashing their warrant card. They've got abduction stuff in the car" (you'd know this, because you read the sentencing report before you travelled back in time).
> 
> ...


The only change police institutions want is for people to stop looking at them


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The only change police institutions want is for people to stop looking at them


"Above the law"


----------



## teqniq (Oct 2, 2021)

This tweet and the subsequent replies are grim:


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> It's not even "closing ranks" - I think there is an institutional perception that this kind of thing just doesn’t happen.


Sadly I think you’re right; there’s a collective denial at work, hence the truth-twisting claims that he wasn’t a serving police officer.


----------



## A380 (Oct 2, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Sadly I think you’re right; there’s a collective denial at work, hence the truth-twisting claims that he wasn’t a serving police officer.



I’ve seen lots of stupid and quite a lot of horrible stuff from old bill sources about this but I haven’t seen one that says he wasn’t a cop.

Stick up the link would you as it might be useful elsewhere.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 2, 2021)

As regards Cressida Dick learning lessons and putting the Met house in order, She needn't have waited till now, She could have started as soon as Wayne Couzens was charged. But the utterances from her and other senior people in the police, and home office, suggest they haven't yet found any lessons to apply, and this is a matter of concern. All this time and no lessons?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

weltweit said:


> As regards Cressida Dick learning lessons and putting the Met house in order, She needn't have waited till now, She could have started as soon as Wayne Couzens was charged. But the utterances from her and other senior people in the police, and home office, suggest they haven't yet found any lessons to apply, and this is a matter of concern. All this time and no lessons?


Of course there are "lessons". But they may not be the lessons you're thinking of. Right now, I have no doubt that senior police officers around the land are having meetings to discuss "damage limitation", "reassurance", "crisis management", etc. You know, the whitewash stuff. Same as always.

None of them will be asking "how on earth do we weed out the misogynists, rapists, thugs, and perverts from our police forces?"


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

weltweit said:


> As regards Cressida Dick learning lessons and putting the Met house in order, She needn't have waited till now, She could have started as soon as Wayne Couzens was charged. But the utterances from her and other senior people in the police, and home office, suggest they haven't yet found any lessons to apply, and this is a matter of concern. All this time and no lessons?


She should have started before this, but when she and the met are criticised in any circumstances (eg Daniel Morgan) they dismiss the criticisms. Her p45 should be in the post


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 2, 2021)

A380 said:


> I’ve seen lots of stupid and quite a lot of horrible stuff from old bill sources about this but I haven’t seen one that says he wasn’t a cop.
> 
> Stick up the link would you as it might be useful elsewhere.


‘The police don’t see Wayne Couzens as one of them. That’s the problem’

There’s also the description of him as a ‘former’ cop.

See also:
 “Couzens used his warrant card as part of his deception to identify himself as a police officer”  - but at the time of the abduction he _was_ a police officer.
 He only became a former officer when they sacked him -after he pleaded guilty.


----------



## izz (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> actually furious, all over again, seeing this now.
> this was said today, on bbc radio, by an elected police commisioner.
> 
> *she should never have submitted to that,* the silly woman.
> ...


good christ I'm massively dicked off about this - has anyone contacted him/tweeted/whatever and what's the best way to contact him/his force ?

FFS so we're meant to have a full and up to date knowledge of the current laws in addition to holding keys, being streetwise, being careful, never wearing attractive clothes or ever going out of the house ever ? DICK.

e2a ok I've sent an email to info@northyorkshire-pfcc.gov.uk FAO the unworthy Commissioner calling for his immediate resignation.


----------



## polly (Oct 2, 2021)

izz said:


> FFS so we're meant to have a full and up to date knowledge of the current laws in addition to holding keys, being streetwise, being careful, never wearing attractive clothes or ever going out of the house ever ? DICK.



Slight tangent but I read an interesting comment about this somewhere, which was essentially: all the precautions women and girls take (no pony tail, text your friends your location, walk on well lit roads, don't wear revealing clothes etc etc) are not going to stop us from being attacked, and we know this - everyone knows this. It's not even the point. The job of these precautions is so that, if we are attacked, we can avoid as much blame as possible and make sure everyone knows that we are a good woman, not a bad woman who deserved it. How revolting.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

QueenOfGoths said:


> Plus incidents when it's 'uncertain', two or three times when commuting into work I saw blokes with their dicks hanging out of their shorts/trousers. I couldn't be sure if it was an accident or a deliberate act, hence uncertain, so I didn't report it



Kind of off-topic but I have 2 pairs of jeans with a dodgy zip and there have been times I’ve gone out and that could feasibly have happened (eg. finding zip is half down or all the way down when I go to loo - it hasn’t happened but zip has been down iyswim).

Only thing on my mind has been the embarrassment but gutted at the idea that someone could be really threatened by it - didn’t even occur to me.


----------



## izz (Oct 2, 2021)

polly said:


> Slight tangent but I read an interesting comment about this somewhere, which was essentially: all the precautions women and girls take (no pony tail, text your friends your location, walk on well lit roads, don't wear revealing clothes etc etc) are not going to stop us from being attacked, and we know this - everyone knows this. It's not even the point. The job of these precautions is so that, if we are attacked, we can avoid as much blame as possible and make sure everyone knows that we are a good woman, not a bad woman who deserved it. How revolting.


Yes, of course this is true, when all we want to do is get home without being interfered with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

8ball said:


> Kind of off-topic but I have 2 pairs of jeans with a dodgy zip and there have been times I’ve gone out and that could feasibly have happened (eg. finding zip is half down or all the way down when I go to loo - it hasn’t happened but zip has been down iyswim).
> 
> Only thing on my mind has been the embarrassment but gutted at the idea that someone could be really threatened by it - didn’t even occur to me.


Just to end this, get button flies and dodgy zip issues no longer apply


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Just to end this, get button flies and dodgy zip issues no longer apply



Annoying for many other reasons. 
 It’s just my 2 pairs of “lockdown lardarse” jeans which I hope to shrink out of soon.

Just really meant to say that it is perfectly plausible that what QoG described could have been an accident.  Kind of sick-making that some predators trade on that for plausible deniability.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 2, 2021)

izz said:


> good christ I'm massively dicked off about this - has anyone contacted him/tweeted/whatever and what's the best way to contact him/his force ?
> 
> FFS so we're meant to have a full and up to date knowledge of the current laws in addition to holding keys, being streetwise, being careful, never wearing attractive clothes or ever going out of the house ever ? DICK.
> 
> e2a ok I've sent an email to info@northyorkshire-pfcc.gov.uk FAO the unworthy Commissioner calling for his immediate resignation.


I suppose the people of North Yorks could count their luck that their Policing & Crime Commissioner is 'merely' an apologist for sexual predators with warrant cards; Cambridgeshire's Deputy PCC had _himself_ been a sexual predator with a warrant card









						Cambridgeshire deputy police commissioner resigns over spy claims
					

Andy Coles accused of deceiving political activist into forming a sexual relationship while he was an undercover officer




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 2, 2021)

izz said:


> I've sent an email to info@northyorkshire-pfcc.gov.uk FAO the unworthy Commissioner calling for his immediate resignation.


Good work re. email.

His stupid ‘streetwise’ comments are particularly rage-inducing since a former partner of Sarah Everard’s testified at the trial that she was:

‘extremely intelligent, savvy and streetwise" and "not a gullible person"’ - but this didn’t save her ☹️

My guess is that her compliance was due to his persuasiveness, intimidation & threats, as well, maybe, if she - tragically - had a misplaced trust in the police, as many law-abiding people have.

Thing is, this compliance / obedience is _exactly what police want and expect_ when they stop a member of the public. Any questioning of their authority will put their backs up to say the least.

Which is why the recently-issued police advice if stopped by a lone cop - to take their number / phone 999 / demand to be taken to a police station / wave down a bus FFS - is so cack-handedly ill-advised


----------



## izz (Oct 2, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Good work re. email.
> 
> His stupid ‘streetwise’ comments are particularly rage-inducing since a former partner of Sarah Everard’s testified at the trial that she was:
> 
> ...


Exactly this - I don't anything about Sarah's background but it wouldn't surprise me if she'd had absolutely no contact with anyone in the police at all before this, so the "You're nicked" spiel would just have been enough.  And you know, even if she had followed Commissioner Allott's belated advice and realised that this was a wrongful 'arrest' and managed to escape Couzens, _it would only have been some other poor woman's name in the title of this thread. _


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

izz said:


> Exactly this - I don't anything about Sarah's background but it wouldn't surprise me if she'd had absolutely no contact with anyone in the police at all before this, so the "You're nicked" spiel would just have been enough.  And you know, even if she had followed Commissioner Allott's belated advice and realised that this was a wrongful 'arrest' and managed to escape Couzens, _it would only have been some other poor woman's name in the title of this thread. _



We can’t even know for sure that this was his first attempt, so very true.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> My guess is that her compliance was due to his persuasiveness, intimidation & threats, as well, maybe, if she - tragically - had a misplaced trust in the police, as many law-abiding people have.



Of course, he _was a real cop, doing what real cops do_ - why on earth would she think not to comply?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 2, 2021)

Not a laughing matter, but this makes the point quite well: Women can avoid attacks by rogue police officers by 'not existing', advises Met Police

*THE Metropolitan Police have issued official advice today telling women the best way to avoid attacks by rogue police officers is by simple non-existence.*
Women everywhere have welcomed the strong response which puts the onus squarely on them to prevent violence from men, and not the institution supposed to protect the public.
A spokesperson for the Met said: “The best way to stop violence against women is for there to be no women. You might think that the police need to take responsibility by properly vetting members of the force or investigating reports of crimes by officers, but this isn’t cost-effective.
“Instead, we offer this advice: if you believe you are in imminent danger, have you thought about not being there in the first place? Predators can’t prey on thin air.
“It’s better than any misguided advice about flagging down bus drivers and asking them to take out corrupt cops for you, and offers 100 per cent protection.

“We’ve been working really hard on this. We put our heads together and tried our absolute best to make no real structural changes and this is what we came up with. So now we can all move on.”
Alongside their advice to women, the Met is also asking people of colour worried about systematic biases from the police if they have tried being white instead.


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> My guess is that her compliance was due to his persuasiveness, intimidation & threats, as well, maybe, if she - tragically - had a misplaced trust in the police, as many law-abiding people have.
> 
> Thing is, this compliance / obedience is _exactly what police want and expect_ when they stop a member of the public. Any questioning of their authority will put their backs up to say the least.
> 
> Which is why the recently-issued police advice if stopped by a lone cop - to take their number / phone 999 / demand to be taken to a police station / wave down a bus FFS - is so cack-handedly ill-advised



Tbh even if you have no trust of the police at all, it's often a case of 'what can I do to make this go smoothly'. And that is never 'oh, are you _really_ on duty' etc. Not that that would have made the slightest difference.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Not a laughing matter, but this makes the point quite well: Women can avoid attacks by rogue police officers by 'not existing', advises Met Police
> 
> *THE Metropolitan Police have issued official advice today telling women the best way to avoid attacks by rogue police officers is by simple non-existence.*
> Women everywhere have welcomed the strong response which puts the onus squarely on them to prevent violence from men, and not the institution supposed to protect the public.
> ...


That's pretty much what they're asking, that women don't exist.

After all, it is clearly our fault when men are violent towards us.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 2, 2021)

Cid said:


> Tbh even if you have no trust of the police at all, it's often a case of 'what can I do to make this go smoothly'. And that is never 'oh, are you _really_ on duty' etc. Not that that would have made the slightest difference.



Trouble with that is, I suspect that, all a mildly dodgy copper has to do is phone in to say that I'm about to "deal with something / make an arrest"  and they are "on duty" . They then ring back and say that it didn't happen "there wasn't any problem or I lost the the thief / twoccer" ... 

And no, there isn't an easy solution until men grow up and out of their "need" for physical dominance & control and gain the ability to control their impulses [anger or whatever] ...


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 2, 2021)

polly said:


> Slight tangent but I read an interesting comment about this somewhere, which was essentially: all the precautions women and girls take (no pony tail, text your friends your location, walk on well lit roads, don't wear revealing clothes etc etc) are not going to stop us from being attacked, and we know this - everyone knows this. It's not even the point. The job of these precautions is so that, if we are attacked, we can avoid as much blame as possible and make sure everyone knows that we are a good woman, not a bad woman who deserved it. How revolting.


i'm intrigued - why no pony tail?


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

BigMoaner said:


> i'm intrigued - why no pony tail?


Something to grab


----------



## BigMoaner (Oct 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Something to grab


----------



## Cid (Oct 2, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> Trouble with that is, I suspect that, all a mildly dodgy copper has to do is phone in to say that I'm about to "deal with something / make an arrest"  and they are "on duty" . They then ring back and say that it didn't happen "there wasn't any problem or I lost the the thief / twoccer" ...
> 
> And no, there isn't an easy solution until men grow up and out of their "need" for physical dominance & control and gain the ability to control their impulses [anger or whatever] ...



Think you've misread my post there... My point was that even someone who doesn't trust the police at all is still going to be compliant* at the point of arrest, simply because they know the best way to get out of there asap is just to do as you're told. The idea of challenging a police officer on their status, or pulling a phone to call their station is absurd _even now_, and was unimaginable then.

*I hate that word now.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 2, 2021)

Cid said:


> Think you've misread my post there... My point was that even someone who doesn't trust the police at all is still going to be compliant* at the point of arrest, simply because they know the best way to get out of there asap is just to do as you're told. The idea of challenging a police officer on their status, or pulling a phone to call their station is absurd _even now_, and was unimaginable then.
> 
> *I hate that word now.


More by luck than judgement, I've never had the experience of being arrested. Even back in my days as a protesting student !
But I agree, most people used to work on "Resistance is Futile" as that is usually the quickest way to deal with the situation.

The "ring the station" advice is absurd. 
Up here, we don't have anything locally, and Northumbria's control room covers such a huge area ...

It is on a par with "ring the electric / gas / water , if someone is at your door and you want to check they are legit" and don't ring the number on the ID, look it up ...
And still there are literally hundreds of "distraction" robberies and other fraudsters out there ...


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

StoneRoad said:


> More by luck than judgement, I've never had the experience of being arrested. Even back in my days as a protesting student !
> But I agree, most people used to work on "Resistance is Futile" as that is usually the quickest way to deal with the situation.
> 
> The "ring the station" advice is absurd.
> ...


And like Couzens, a genuine member of a utilities company could also murder you.


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 2, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> And like Couzens, a genuine member of a utilities company could also murder you.


Exactly.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 2, 2021)

What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.

Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?

Or 'yeah, maybe he's been technically guilty of rape, but he's basically a good sort'?

Or 'every copper's entitled to bend the law now and again, this is his way'?

Or any number of other things?

I'll never find out, though, as even if someone involved does decide to explain, there's no way of knowing whether they're telling the truth.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 2, 2021)

David Allen Green furious today:









						The “I will make something up…who are they going to believe, me or you?” police officer only gets a written warning – and why this matters after the Sarah Everard murder
					

2nd October 2021 The news in the United Kingdom has been dominated in the last few days by the murder of Sarah Everard by a serving policing police officer by means of his police powers – for…



					davidallengreen.com


----------



## andysays (Oct 2, 2021)

Poot said:


> One of my colleagues was briefly a police officer. I asked him about it a while ago. He got out asap because he realised that every single person there was 'an inadequate' as he put it. They were there to take out their powerlessness on society. At 6'3" and being a bit of a gentle giant type who's actually quite naive and really wanted to help people, he got very sick of their shit very, very quickly and left.
> 
> Fragile egos and criticism do not make for a happy outcome. Hence the police actions at the vigil. I wouldn't be surprised if we see more of that rather than less. The police are likely to double down if anything, at least that's my prediction.


This is the other side of the vetting process - decent people who join the police out of naive idealism don't stick around for long when they discover the sort of shit so many of their colleagues get up to, and find out that they are expected to cover for them.

And to repeat, this is an institutional issue, not primarily about good or bad individuals


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 2, 2021)

I've been waiting for someone high profile to call for the sacking of all police who are sexual harassers or domestic abusers. Seems to me an obvious first step (there are many more steps necessary after that). I'm a bit puzzled that it hasn't come out as a major demand yet.


----------



## Edie (Oct 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is the other side of the vetting process - decent people who join the police out of naive idealism don't stick around for long when they discover the sort of shit so many of their colleagues get up to, and find out that they are expected to cover for them.
> 
> And to repeat, this is an institutional issue, not primarily about good or bad individuals


This sort of demonisation just covers up the institutional nature of the sexism. Most coppers- men and women- will be decent people. The organisation they work for is institutionally racist tho.


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.
> 
> Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?
> 
> ...



They were probably thinking "what's wrong with a bit of rape and gigglez between the boyz hey?"

_Sources: Rugby League, NRL, RFU etc etc..._


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> What I'd like to know is what the colleagues who nicknamed him 'the rapist' were thinking.
> 
> Was it, 'hey, just a bit of bantz, Wayne can be a bit of a prick, but of course he'd never really rape anyone'?
> 
> ...


Some people do throw words like "rape" around in a jokey way like in your first example, and that's just the tip of the problematic iceberg, not to mention being very upsetting to people overhearing who could be/ know a rape victim.

I used to work in a call centre back in 2010, which was actually a very nice, inclusive place to work and not misogynistic at all. But there was one group of blokes there who'd take the piss out of each other in a friendly way, and one of their injokes every time one of them got too close or brushed up against another was "Ah Sean, you sex pest!" At the time we all saw it as harmless fun. Now I'm wondering if "Sean" was to appear in the press having done something so revolting, would that banter be brought up? If so, no one would know if it was just a bad joke between mates or if they really did know something bad about him and chose to ignore it. Talk about your own words coming back to haunt you!

Like I said, it was 11 years ago, and those lads were in their late 20s/early 30s at the time, so hopefully they're a bit more educated about why you shouldn't make light of sexual harassment. I admit I didn't really think much of it myself at the time, apart from seeing it as the joke it was so obviously meant to be, but I'd definitely challenge that choice of words now.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 2, 2021)

All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.


Poor woman, I hope she's OK. Don't kick yourself though; she did manage to get away, and sometimes when you see something horrific happening you can be too stunned to react appropriately at the time. You're only human, so don't be hard on yourself for not reacting "perfectly". I think it's great that you're aware of that, and your post is a nice reminder that there's loads of good men who listen to and care about women's struggles.


----------



## andysays (Oct 2, 2021)

Edie said:


> This sort of demonisation just covers up the institutional nature of the sexism. Most coppers- men and women- will be decent people. The organisation they work for is institutionally racist tho.


What sort of demonisation?

The whole point I've been attempting to make is about the institutional nature of the problem, rather than it being simply down to one sick individual.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 2, 2021)

Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing violence committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing sexism committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.


What do you think institutional racism means? A bunch of individual racists who just happen to work at the same place?
There is such a thing as culture, humans are social animals who adapt to survive in their given environment, we're not just a bunch of fixed individuals good or bad, racist or not, sexist or not, bouncing about untouched by our day to day context.

The 'rotten apple' metaphor is always totally misused, the whole point of a rotten apple is that it spoils the barrel, people miss that bit off.

This is a thing I saw ages ago, think this link will do.
It is possible to trace corruption and misconduct within police forces like a virus, it is infectious, you either consciously choose, if you can, to not work with those officers or you become just like them.








						Bad Chicago Cops Spread Their Misconduct Like a Disease
					

Because Chicago’s police complaints can list multiple officers at once, it’s possible to build a giant social network of police interactions.




					theintercept.com


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 2, 2021)

I think we may be quibbling over terminology.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 2, 2021)

Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public - Police Scotland
					

Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public news release



					www.scotland.police.uk


----------



## andysays (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing sexism committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.


And many of them may start out as decent people, but in becoming incorporated into the institution they change, and come to accept and effectively ignore indecent actions when committed by their colleagues.

That's an important part of how an institution like the Police force works and perpetuates itself.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing violence committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.



None of us are entirely decent are we?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Organisations don't exist, except as aggregations of individuals. If 'decent people' are allowing violence committed by 'indecent people' to be ignored, then they are not entirely decent, even if they've never so much as contemplated such action themselves.


There is no such thing as society...


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 2, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Sadly I think you’re right; there’s a collective denial at work, hence the truth-twisting claims that he wasn’t a serving police officer.


Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc. 

The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.

And what's worse, it was a woman cop who was in denial, someone who works in a domestic violence unit, and who claims to have never encountered a colleague who's a wrong 'un in more than two decades of policing.

The closing ranks and denial of the problem is very real.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc.
> 
> The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.
> 
> ...


I wonder _where _they might be getting their cues from...?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Yes, a friend posted about this case on Facebook and someone popped up to say they were a police officer and he clearly wasn't 'one of us'. Erm, he literally was, he clearly was a cop, one with a warrant card and handcuffs, etc.
> 
> The mental gymnastics to deny him being a police officer when he was literally a police officer at the time he committed the offence is incredible.
> 
> ...


There are none so blind as those who will not see


----------



## danny la rouge (Oct 2, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> he clearly wasn't 'one of us'.


You just know that’s what all the internal chats, meetings, formal and informal, are saying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> You just know that’s what all the internal chats, meetings, formal and informal, are saying.


Yeh he broke rule 1, don't get caught


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

One tiny thing that would be some kind of a better than nothing, even as a gesture, might be if the role in the UK government of 'Minister For Women and Equalities' wasn't just some joke of a part time gig that Liz fucking Truss is supposed to do in her spare time when she's not trying to advance the international pork markets, but an actual role worth somebody's attention.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> One tiny thing that would be some kind of a better than nothing, even as a gesture, might be if the role in the UK government of 'Minister For Women and Equalities' wasn't just some joke of a part time gig that Liz fucking Truss is supposed to do in her spare time when she's not trying to advance the international pork markets, but an actual role worth somebody's attention.


It's not the first time it's been a part-time portfolio, and should as you say be given the full time attention of a department


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 2, 2021)

I hate Thatcher with as much passion as the next would-be grave-pisser refraining only out of courtesy for those who happened to be dancing, but on that point she happened to be right. It's taking it out of context that makes her seem monstrous. Now she WAS monstrous, but not for that particular comment, at which point this all becomes so pointlessly pedantic that I give up in despair.

Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it. Giving it some separate mythical existence isn't doing anything. So the Met was institutionally racist in 1999? And now, two decades on, it's not only still racist, but institutionally sexist? Well, I suppose the acknowledgement is progress, but apart from that, what has improved?


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it.


i don't understand what you're suggesting here.
Do you think the only way to make the met police for instance less likely to nurture and equip another Couzens would be to what, chat to individual officers to see if they might be rapist murderers but not waste time trying to understand the rottenness of the institution itself that allowed him to work there, its processes and culture? You might see it as a coincidence that he was a policeman, maybe. I don't.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> I hate Thatcher with as much passion as the next would-be grave-pisser refraining only out of courtesy for those who happened to be dancing, but on that point she happened to be right. It's taking it out of context that makes her seem monstrous. Now she WAS monstrous, but not for that particular comment, at which point this all becomes so pointlessly pedantic that I give up in despair.
> 
> Of course there is the institution, and it is racist or sexist or whatever in any given case. But there is no meaningful way of doing anything about it apart from regarding it as the individuals who comprise it. Giving it some separate mythical existence isn't doing anything. So the Met was institutionally racist in 1999? And now, two decades on, it's not only still racist, but institutionally sexist? Well, I suppose the acknowledgement is progress, but apart from that, what has improved?


Organisations are not simply composed of individuals. As Errol Flynn points out in they died with their boots on, organisations have a soul of their own. They gather an internal culture based on both bottom-up and top-down influences. There are hierarchies, and there are interest groups who advance their own agendas and combat those of others. Just saying organisations are a bunch of individuals is facile and does not allow for meaningful analysis.


----------



## colacubes (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not the first time it's been a part-time portfolio, and should as you say be given the full time attention of a department


It’s been part time since the role was created in 1997. I’ve literally just finished writing my masters dissertation about why it’s not fit for purpose and should be abolished or beefed up because it’s fuck all use right now.


----------



## ouirdeaux (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't understand what you're suggesting here.
> Do you think the only way to make the met police for instance less likely to nurture and equip another Couzens would be to what, chat to individual officers to see if they might be rapist murderers but not waste time trying to understand the rottenness of the institution itself that allowed him to work there, its processes and culture?


Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.

But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

colacubes said:


> It’s been part time since the role was created in 1997. I’ve literally just finished writing my masters dissertation about why it’s not fit for purpose and should be abolished or beefed up because it’s fuck all use right now.


brilliant.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 2, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Poor woman, I hope she's OK. Don't kick yourself though; she did manage to get away, and sometimes when you see something horrific happening you can be too stunned to react appropriately at the time. You're only human, so don't be hard on yourself for not reacting "perfectly". I think it's great that you're aware of that, and your post is a nice reminder that there's loads of good men who listen to and care about women's struggles.


They were both black, so I was also wondering whether inserting Brixton police into their lives might backfire. Sometimes it's better to get help from friends and family than from a bunch of racist bullies in uniform.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Of course not.
> 
> But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implication of Sarah Everard's murder?


There's more than one implication of se's killing: but seeing as the met haven't really dealt with the implications of eg mark duggan or smiley culture's killings I think it may be quite some time before they do more than pay lip service to the implications


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public - Police Scotland
> 
> 
> Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public news release
> ...


I guess at least that means someone will be aware of the interaction and the copper would have to be fucking stupid to try anything. But really, if it hadn't been for this tragedy, it's not the sort of thing anyone would think to do.

Not quite as evil - although close enough - but I remember reading about similarly missing-the-point type victim blaming in 2008, 2009. There was this guy in London posing as a landlord and scamming money from people. He'd break into an empty flat, advertise it on Gumtree, show people round who would fall for it because he actually had a flat to show them. The widely known version of that scam at the time was the "Please send the deposit amount to yourself via Western Union and then forward me the receipt" where the scammer makes all these bullshit excuses not to meet you, but I think that was one of the first publicised case where the scam didn't happen that way. Anyway, similarly missing the point, some idiot detective appeared on the news to lecture renters about how you should "Always view a property before you hand over money!" They DID! The flat existed all right, it just didn't belong to him!

Yes, reading about that did make me more vigilant about checking the landlord's details on the Land Registry when moving somewhere, to make sure the name matches. But unless I'd been aware of that sort of sophisticated rent scam, where the perp goes out of his way to make himself believable, why would you think twice?


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.
> 
> But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?



As far as i can see, every effort is being made to not 'acknowledge the implications' of her rape and murder by a serving police officer, instead the messaging has been, nothing to do with us, he's a bad individual who slipped under the radar somehow. Let's talk about how to identify fake police officers instead of talking about how come he was one of us.

I don't know the answer, on whether anything real has actually changed since the met was declared institutionally racist, but to me it sounded like step one of anything potentially changing.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 2, 2021)

Such a stubborn institution to try and reform, isn't it? 'A few rotten apples' it is not. A wide nasty/vindictive streak/current and contempt for any criticism is what I see.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> As far as i can see, every effort is being made to not 'acknowledge the implications' of her rape and murder by a serving police officer, instead the messaging has been, nothing to do with us, he's a bad individual who slipped under the radar somehow. Let's talk about how to identify fake police officers instead of talking about how come he was one of us.
> 
> I don't know the answer, on whether anything real has actually changed since the met was declared institutionally racist, but to me it sounded like step one of anything potentially changing.


Yeah, that's it. They need to accept responsibility for ignoring the red flags about his previous behaviour, like the indecent exposure and the racist WhatsApp messages and not disciplining him up to and including firing. It might not have stopped him committing murder, but at least he wouldn't have been able to use his police credentials to do it. And they need to pay attention to racist/misogynist tendencies in other officers too. Not because every sexist or racist person is automatically a murderer - most wouldn't go that far - but because many rapists and murderers have those attitudes. And because you can't trust someone with any kind of "us and them" mindset to deal fairly with the public anyway.


----------



## bimble (Oct 2, 2021)

Very much what we’ve just been chatting about, the idea that the met is institutionally misogynistic:








						The Metropolitan police canteen culture that shielded Sarah Everard’s killer
					

The murder of a woman by a serving officer has exposed the Met, once labelled institutionally racist, to accusations that it is also institutionally misogynist




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public - Police Scotland
> 
> 
> Lone police officers to offer verification check to members of the public news release
> ...


At least they are doing something.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> At least they are doing something.


Something actually quite useful. Meanwhile at Scotland Yard...


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 2, 2021)

I saw this tweet earlier from Colin Sutton, the guy whose work led to the arrest of Levi Bellfield and Delroy Grant. Portrayed in the ITV series Manhunt by Martin Clunes.

Colin Sutton (@colinsutton) Tweeted: Spent the last couple of weeks explaining that dealing with horrors like Bellfield and Grant still never pierced my professionalism to drive me to hatred. Step forward Wayne Couzens, I never met you but you have achieved what even they could not. #waynecouzens #thtrowawaythekey


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 2, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> You just know that’s what all the internal chats, meetings, formal and informal, are saying.


Yeah, wouldn't surprise me.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Organisations are not simply composed of individuals. As Errol Flynn points out in they died with their boots on, organisations have a soul of their own. They gather an internal culture based on both bottom-up and top-down influences. There are hierarchies, and there are interest groups who advance their own agendas and combat those of others. Just saying organisations are a bunch of individuals is facile and does not allow for meaningful analysis.



I agree with this post totally, but there’s a niggling part of me that wonders whether we are letting ourselves off too lightly.

It probably needs its own thread, though.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

danny la rouge said:


> You just know that’s what all the internal chats, meetings, formal and informal, are saying.



I think ouirdeaux is right to wonder about what was going on with his nickname, though.  While he _was_ one of them, this is what they called him.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think ouirdeaux is right to wonder about what was going on with his nickname, though.  While he _was_ one of them, this is what they called him.


What it tells me loudest is that there appeared (appears) to be a very big disconnection in the minds of his colleagues between their perception of him as a weirdo, and the fact that there might be victims of this behaviour out there, who probably wouldn't find it quite such a laugh.


----------



## ash (Oct 2, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I guess at least that means someone will be aware of the interaction and the copper would have to be fucking stupid to try anything. But really, if it hadn't been for this tragedy, it's not the sort of thing anyone would think to do.
> 
> Not quite as evil - although close enough - but I remember reading about similarly missing-the-point type victim blaming in 2008, 2009. There was this guy in London posing as a landlord and scamming money from people. He'd break into an empty flat, advertise it on Gumtree, show people round who would fall for it because he actually had a flat to show them. The widely known version of that scam at the time was the "Please send the deposit amount to yourself via Western Union and then forward me the receipt" where the scammer makes all these bullshit excuses not to meet you, but I think that was one of the first publicised case where the scam didn't happen that way. Anyway, similarly missing the point, some idiot detective appeared on the news to lecture renters about how you should "Always view a property before you hand over money!" They DID! The flat existed all right, it just didn't belong to him!
> 
> Yes, reading about that did make me more vigilant about checking the landlord's details on the Land Registry when moving somewhere, to make sure the name matches. But unless I'd been aware of that sort of sophisticated rent scam, where the perp goes out of his way to make himself believable, why would you think twice?


I know it’s off topic but this reminds me of when we almost rented a flat in 1999 south London. It was too cheap and the organisation we were renting from were very pushy about the deposit. We checked with companies house and the company had gone bankrupt some time ago. I can’t remember all the ins and outs as it was so long ago but we found out he had rented the flat on a short term lease to pull off the scam. Once  we said we weren’t interested the phone number went dead.  Close shave.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 2, 2021)

existentialist said:


> What it tells me loudest is that there appeared (appears) to be a very big disconnection in the minds of his colleagues between their perception of him as a weirdo, and the fact that there might be victims of this behaviour out there, who probably wouldn't find it quite such a laugh.



That’s a fairly charitable interpretation under the circumstances.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

8ball said:


> That’s a fairly charitable interpretation under the circumstances.


Understatement for effect.


----------



## Humberto (Oct 2, 2021)

They make a sop of community engagement. Therefore they are more like an occupying force. The abuse is just horrible, and well documented.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 2, 2021)

There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.


Even though it's well-deserved, I think Dick resigning would just create a massive sideshow which will inevitably divert attention from the actual work which needs to be done.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 2, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> There doesn't seem to be any sign of Cressida Dick resigning. Patel and Johnson are ducking the issue, but maybe the likes of Jess Phillips will join forces with the many unhappy former senior female Met officers and the press and make something happen. With it being Sunday tomorrow, there'll be lots of phone calls and headlines. There must be a good chance of Dick being made to fall on her sword by the Tories tomorrow or Monday.


Another triumph of hope over experience

As a moment's thought would tell you there is zero chance of her being made to fall on her sword during the Tory party conference: and it's barely weeks after her contract was extended for two years because no one of the required calibre was available


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 2, 2021)

It's a problem. But how can you persuade the rank and file that big changes are necessary if Dick is allowed to stay?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Understatement for effect.



Fair do’s.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 3, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> All the photos in the papers of Sarah's smiling face are making me tearful. Have resolved to do more when I see women in difficult situations. Yesterday I helped a woman whose car had broken down in the middle of the road in front of the Beehive in the rush hour. Lots of drivers shouting at her and blowing their horns, and various drunks/addicts taking an interest. But I'm kicking myself because a couple of weeks ago I saw a guy start hitting a woman in my street. They seemed to be a couple. They were next to her car. She jumped in, locked the doors and drove off. I memorised her registration and am wishing I'd called the police and filmed the guy. At the time I felt it would be interfering in her life. Wrong decision.



It's hard to know when or whether to intervene. Could be a domestic and you could end up getting in trouble if you directly approached the couple... 

Not that the guy's behaviour is in any way acceptable.


----------



## Edie (Oct 3, 2021)

I always think resignations are a tokenistic distraction from solving the problem tbh. Get rid of Cressida Dick and you won’t of changed the institutional sexism.


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> As a moment's thought would tell you there is zero chance of her being made to fall on her sword during the Tory party conference: and it's barely weeks after her contract was extended for two years because no one of the required calibre was available


You say that as if the two were somehow connected. Since when has this government ever cared about keeping its word or worried about a U-turn? Or worried about consequences of a U-turn? If they see crowd-pleasing in it, or money in it, they will do it.


----------



## maomao (Oct 3, 2021)

Edie said:


> I always think resignations are a tokenistic distraction from solving the problem tbh. Get rid of Cressida Dick and you won’t of changed the institutional sexism.


Whether or not that's true as a general principle, she deserves to go as a result of the Daniel Morgan inquiry. And in my opinion her vocal support of state violence against women in March shows she's incapable of dealing with this problem. Depressingly, I think it's unlikely any replacement would do much either but that's hardly a reason for her to keep her job.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 3, 2021)

I can't understand how the vetting process for a school dinner lady seems to be more stringent than for a police.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 3, 2021)

ouirdeaux said:


> Of course not. I thought I made that clear in my reference to the others who were guilty not of rape or murder, but covering up, however consciously, the actions of someone who was.
> 
> But it's not so much what I'm suggesting is that I'm asking what others are suggesting. The Met was declared institutionally racist over two decades ago, and at the time I said I was unimpressed, as their racism was only a subset of a wider problem of incompetence and stupidity, deliberate and accidental. Have we made much progress since acknowledging the implications of the Stephen Lawrence case? Are we likely to make much progress now that we're acknowledging the implications of Sarah Everard's murder?



The context is always going to be the political function of the police, the reality of that function, as well the fantasies that police have about their own function. You'd have to do a lot of group work, and you do that in the context of an understanding of the conscious and unconscious functions of the police for the rest of society, and how those are met by individuals in the organisation, as well as the group. Similar to what you might need to do to have a well functioning NHS - what does the NHS stand for, in fantasy, what is projected into it, what underlying emotional needs are met there by its workers, what kind of organisations cultures and defences are created into order to keep people there doing their job, why are so many leaving. Uncertainties about roles are likely to amplify existing anxieties and defences. You need people who can work with conflict and contradiction.

I don't think they'll do this, it's a massive undertaking, and might undermine the political function of the police but there are organisational consultants who work with the police, I came across someone referencing a piece of consultancy work done with the police a few months ago but I can't remember where, I read so much stuff on the internet. I'll try and track it down.


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> I can't understand how the vetting process for a school dinner lady seems to be more stringent than for a police.


i don't get it either. This says that the met recruited another bloke with a conviction for indecent exposure just last year. Why would you do that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't get it either. This says that the met recruited another bloke with a conviction for indecent exposure just last year. Why would you do that.



It's either because they don't give a shit or because the numbers of non-creeps applying are insufficient to keep the force operational. Probably both.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's either because they don't give a shit or because the numbers of non-creeps applying are insufficient to keep the force operational. Probably both.



They really are the filth.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't get it either. This says that the met recruited another bloke with a conviction for indecent exposure just last year. Why would you do that.


And looking back 10 or so years to the killing of Ian Tomlinson, the thug that did that used a variety of internal moves between different departments of the police to continue to work after a number of incidents involving excessive violence both at work and in his civilian life. This did culminate with sacking after he had killed someone.  Lessons were quite plainly there to learn but were not.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> The context is always going to be the political function of the police, the reality of that function, as well the fantasies that police have about their own function. You'd have to do a lot of group work, and you do that in the context of an understanding of the conscious and unconscious functions of the police for the rest of society, and how those are met by individuals in the organisation, as well as the group. Similar to what you might need to do to have a well functioning NHS - what does the NHS stand for, in fantasy, what is projected into it, what underlying emotional needs are met there by its workers, what kind of organisations cultures and defences are created into order to keep people there doing their job, why are so many leaving. Uncertainties about roles are likely to amplify existing anxieties and defences. You need people who can work with conflict and contradiction.
> 
> I don't think they'll do this, it's a massive undertaking, and might undermine the political function of the police but there are organisational consultants who work with the police, I came across someone referencing a piece of consultancy work done with the police a few months ago but I can't remember where, I read so much stuff on the internet. I'll try and track it down.


I agree with the general point of what you're saying, but I think I'm more pessimistic than you.

I'm absolutely certain they won't do this seriously, in the way it would need to be done. Not only is it a massive undertaking, but more importantly it would *absolutely* undermine the political function of the police.

The Police aren't institutionally racist, misogynist and corrupt by accident, the abuses of police power aren't an accident, it's a fundamental and necessary part of their political function to be those things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bluescreen said:


> You say that as if the two were somehow connected. Since when has this government ever cared about keeping its word or worried about a U-turn? Or worried about consequences of a U-turn? If they see crowd-pleasing in it, or money in it, they will do it.


She won't be forced out  during the Tory conference as she would become the bigger story and distract from their big event


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don't get it either. This says that the met recruited another bloke with a conviction for indecent exposure just last year. Why would you do that.


MPS - metropolitan pervert servce


----------



## bimble (Oct 3, 2021)

I do think that, like with parliamentary politics, the police must have a massive problem with the fact that the kind of people who might actually make it better are very unlikely to go anywhere near it, will instead find work in places less putrid.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> I agree with the general point of what you're saying, but I think I'm more pessimistic than you.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain they won't do this seriously, in the way it would need to be done. Not only is it a massive undertaking, but more importantly it would *absolutely* undermine the political function of the police.
> 
> The Police aren't institutionally racist, misogynist and corrupt by accident, the abuses of police power aren't an accident, it's a fundamental and necessary part of their political function to be those things.



No, that was what I was saying, that it is part of their political function. They also require a certain amount of legitimacy to carry out that political function though.

My main point was that the usual solution, training, education, the focus on information and attempts to change conscious individual attitudes, is useless, the work needed for any organisational change is on a different level.

eta you're right though andysays, I suppose I did come over as more optimistic than I actually am. My work is all about believing in the capacity to change even if it takes a long time and the change is minimal, so it does tend to colour my perspective.


----------



## andysays (Oct 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> No, that was what I was saying, that it is part of their political function. They also require a certain amount of legitimacy to carry out that political function though.
> 
> My main point was that the usual solution, training, education, the focus on information and attempts to change conscious individual attitudes, is useless, the work needed for any organisational change is on a different level.
> 
> eta you're right though andysays, I suppose I did come over as more optimistic than I actually am. My work is all about believing in the capacity to change even if it takes a long time and the change is minimal, so it does tend to colour my perspective.


I accept what you're saying about the requirement for a certain amount of legitimacy to carry out their political function, but unfortunately I don't think that legitimacy is seriously or significantly challenged even by cases like this, not when the political establishment are so keen on reinforcing it.

On an individual level, change can only come about if the individual wants to/is committed to change.

I think this is even more true of an organisation like the Police, where they are fundamentally committed to resisting any attempts to get them to change.


----------



## tim (Oct 3, 2021)

The Speaker seems to be angry not because he was recruited by the police in the first place but because the Met sent him to work in the Houses of Parliament.









						Commons Speaker wants Met Police to explain Wayne Couzens' Parliament work
					

The Commons Speaker wants to know how Wayne Couzens was deemed suitable to be on duty at Parliament.



					www.google.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> No, that was what I was saying, that it is part of their political function. They also require a certain amount of legitimacy to carry out that political function though.
> 
> My main point was that the usual solution, training, education, the focus on information and attempts to change conscious individual attitudes, is useless, the work needed for any organisational change is on a different level.
> 
> eta you're right though andysays, I suppose I did come over as more optimistic than I actually am. My work is all about believing in the capacity to change even if it takes a long time and the change is minimal, so it does tend to colour my perspective.


They only investigate eg mugging and burglary very sketchily, and there are many crimes they barely ever do anything about, eg cycling on the pavement. And as we've noted here on loads of threads they do fuck all about rape and other sex crime cases. It's very hard to see them gaining legitimacy through tackling crime when they themselves acknowledge they simply don't bother eg Police ‘decided not to investigate’ more crimes during coronavirus pandemic and everyone knows that once you stop doing something be it a daily five mile walk, a weekly meeting, a monthly paper or investigating crimes it's really hard to take them up again


----------



## existentialist (Oct 3, 2021)

So, Johnson says that he will "stop at nothing to put more rapists behind bars". Leaving aside the empty political rhetoric, you can see where the problem lies: it's all about the after-the-fact stuff. Not "stop at nothing to make women feel safe", or "stop at nothing to address the behaviours that lead to men becoming rapists". Just get them behind bars. By which time at least one woman will have been raped. But she doesn't matter - it's all about the rapists. And getting them behind bars.

And people _vote_ for these fuckers...?


----------



## Poot (Oct 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> So, Johnson says that he will "stop at nothing to put more rapists behind bars". Leaving aside the empty political rhetoric, you can see where the problem lies: it's all about the after-the-fact stuff. Not "stop at nothing to make women feel safe", or "*stop at nothing to address the behaviours that lead to men becoming rapists*". Just get them behind bars. By which time at least one woman will have been raped. But she doesn't matter - it's all about the rapists. And getting them behind bars.
> 
> And people _vote_ for these fuckers...?


I wish that bit was a bit snappier. If it made a good soundbite it might start to address the actual problem. Unfortunately as you say, behind bars, rapists, those people over there that are nothing like us, the assertive-sounding 'stop at nothing', these things all win again. Rather than addressing the actual question of how men become angry at women.


----------



## trashpony (Oct 3, 2021)

Good article by Karen Ingala Smith who runs a domestic violence charity on violence against women and girls. It’s all very well slagging off the police but we need to remember that they are operating in a world which is profoundly misogynist. They’re not outliers.



> All women are controlled by men’s violence. Whether or not they are the ones on the receiving end, it affects every one of us. When we clutch our keys as we walk home at night, when we pick the safest route along well-lit streets but also when we worry about whether a new partner, or a troubled male relative, could become abusive: we fear the kitchen knife pointed towards us, or the hands around our neck.
> 
> I grew up in West Yorkshire in the 1970s, in the shadow of Peter Sutcliffe, known as the “Yorkshire Ripper”. We all knew, even children, about this bad man who was picking off women. And men’s violence against women was also around me as a child. It is there for so many of us — not just in public spaces but in intimate places too. That was one reason I have spent all my adult life working in specialist women’s services.
> 
> ...


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 3, 2021)

What we are talking about is a fundamental shift in the way "society" as a whole behaves.

I believe that has to start with education - teaching people & them learning that all the behaviours that allowed WC to develop into a murdering rapist are not acceptable. 
Starting with all the inequalities and sexist objectification perpetrated by men & society in general.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> And looking back 10 or so years to the killing of Ian Tomlinson, the thug that did that used a variety of internal moves between different departments of the police to continue to work after a number of incidents involving excessive violence both at work and in his civilian life. This did culminate with sacking after he had killed someone.  Lessons were quite plainly there to learn but were not.



It puts me in mind of how the Catholic Church would often handle abuse cases.
The chief priority is clearly one of image management.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 3, 2021)

8ball said:


> It puts me in mind of how the Catholic Church would often handle abuse cases.
> The chief priority is clearly one of image management.


And still, largely, is.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2021)

Well not accepting applicants with any type of conviction for a sexual offence would be a start. Also taking domestic violence seriously. Pruning the ranks of anyone with a conviction for either of these two categories of offence would be better.

There also cannot be any exceptions.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Well not accepting applicants with any type of conviction for a sexual offence would be a start. Also taking domestic violence seriously. Pruning the ranks of anyone with a conviction for either of these two categories of offence would be better.
> 
> There also cannot be any exceptions.


Re: taking domestic violence seriously, I think the approach to that needs some really serious work.  I know one copper whom I have spoken with about the experience of such interactions and it sounds incredibly hard and something needing a specialist attending with the officer (rather than just the officers attending, especially an all-male group), as well as extensive targeted training for the officer(s) attending.  Women's Aid are working with my local force to improve things and it seems like maybe a start.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 3, 2021)

8ball said:


> Re: taking domestic violence seriously, I think the approach to that needs some really serious work.  I know one copper whom I have spoken with about the experience of such interactions and it sounds incredibly hard and something needing a specialist attending with the officer (rather than just the officers attending, especially an all-male group), as well as extensive targeted training for the officer(s) attending.  Women's Aid are working with my local force to improve things and it seems like maybe a start.


I was really impressed when I called the police out for DV - a man and woman attended and the follow up was with a specific team. It was the ongoing afterwards that they really fell down on (like not collecting his spit on my door so it became he said she said).


----------



## Dystopiary (Oct 3, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> I suppose the people of North Yorks could count their luck that their Policing & Crime Commissioner is 'merely' an apologist for sexual predators with warrant cards; Cambridgeshire's Deputy PCC had _himself_ been a sexual predator with a warrant card
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Still a councillor: 

Councillor details - Councillor Andy Coles | Peterborough City Council 

https://twitter.com/search?q=cllrandycoles&src=typed_query&f=live


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 3, 2021)

Red Cat said:


> My work is all about believing in the capacity to change even if it takes a long time and the change is minimal, so it does tend to colour my perspective.


And we need people in jobs like yours, otherwise it's like accepting that things can't be improved. Thank you for striving to make a difference.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> And we need people in jobs like yours, otherwise it's like accepting that things can't be improved. Thank you for striving to make a difference.



Totally.  Better to be a mostly-disappointed optimist in this area than a pessimist who is almost always right.


----------



## Edie (Oct 3, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I was really impressed when I called the police out for DV - a man and woman attended and the follow up was with a specific team. It was the ongoing afterwards that they really fell down on (like not collecting his spit on my door so it became he said she said).


Like you I had a mixed experience. When my ex bust up my eldests face bad enough to need a child protection medical with photographs at the hospital they were good. They lent on me quite hard to encourage him to prosecute (he was 13 😱 I couldn’t believe he was made to choose tbh). But when we decided not to they were supportive unlike social services who were cunts about it.

But when he flung the youngest across his kitchen they were utterly useless. After five days of agonising about whether to call them I did, and the woman on the line was great. But when I came to go in and talk to them they ‘non crimed it’ and I was in and out within 10 mins I’d say. 

The only time I ever called them about myself was years earlier when he dragged me across the kitchen floor by my hair and slammed the glass single pane door against my shoulder and cut all down my arm. I rang the police. A male PC called me back at 3am once the kids were asleep so obviously I didn’t say come round.

In a hopeful post note, my ex is now sober and no longer violent and my eldest mostly lives with him. So it just goes to show that things can change.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 3, 2021)

tim said:


> The Speaker seems to be angry not because he was recruited by the police in the first place but because the Met sent him to work in the Houses of Parliament.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, the hypocrisy burns. It also makes me angry that the thing that clinched his whole life tariff was reportedly because he misused his warrant card, not just because of the act itself. Why can't that be automatic for anyone who rapes and/or murders someone in cold blood, cop or not?









						Wayne Couzens' whole-life tariff explained as only used for most heinous crimes
					

Sarah Everard's murderer Wayne Couzens joins a list of 60 other criminals who have been given a whole-life term in jail - a sentence reserved for the most serious of offences which fall into five categories




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 3, 2021)

Dystopiary said:


> Still a councillor:
> 
> Councillor details - Councillor Andy Coles | Peterborough City Council
> 
> https://twitter.com/search?q=cllrandycoles&src=typed_query&f=live


Yes, despite the best efforts of Jessica and others to make being a creepy predator police officer an election issue. His wife was also a Tory councillor before she died a short while back.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 3, 2021)

Edie said:


> Like you I had a mixed experience. When my ex bust up my eldests face bad enough to need a child protection medical with photographs at the hospital they were good. They lent on me quite hard to encourage him to prosecute (he was 13 😱 I couldn’t believe he was made to choose tbh). But when we decided not to they were supportive unlike social services who were cunts about it.
> 
> But when he flung the youngest across his kitchen they were utterly useless. After five days of agonising about whether to call them I did, and the woman on the line was great. But when I came to go in and talk to them they ‘non crimed it’ and I was in and out within 10 mins I’d say.
> 
> ...


Sorry you went through that, but it's good to hear the situation resolved.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 3, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Even though it's well-deserved, I think Dick resigning would just create a massive sideshow which will inevitably divert attention from the actual work which needs to be done.


True. But she's presided over the shit-show. It happened on her watch. And she should never have been appointed after cops murdered Jean Charles de Menezes in cold blood on her watch and then tried to cover it up. 

The totality of it all is that the public - whom the police are supposed to serve - are treated with contempt. And that's just not good enough. Dick must go.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 3, 2021)

Edie said:


> I always think resignations are a tokenistic distraction from solving the problem tbh. Get rid of Cressida Dick and you won’t of changed the institutional sexism.


True. But you don't have a cat in hell's chance of changing the culture if the same 'leader' remains in charge.


----------



## Cid (Oct 3, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Yeah, the hypocrisy burns. It also makes me angry that the thing that clinched his whole life tariff was reportedly because he misused his warrant card, not just because of the act itself. Why can't that be automatic for anyone who rapes and/or murders someone in cold blood, cop or not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Basically because it's not the law. Whole life tariffs can only be applied in a restricted range of exceptional cases... it would require legislation from parliament to change that. I'm not that familiar with the ins and outs, but you technically can spend the whole of your life behind bars on a life sentence. You still need to be paroled, and minimum tariffs can be applied (e.g no parole before 40 years for Ian Huntley). The difference with whole life tariffs is that any parole has to be an appeal to the High Court.

As with anything in justice, it's a balancing act. I mean someone who stabs another person when they're 20 may well be capable of reform, and having an overly harsh parole regime could just end up with overfilled prisons that disproportionately impact marginalised people as in the US. Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 3, 2021)

Cid said:


> Basically because it's not the law. Whole life tariffs can only be applied in a restricted range of exceptional cases... it would require legislation from parliament to change that. I'm not that familiar with the ins and outs, but you technically can spend the whole of your life behind bars on a life sentence. You still need to be paroled, and minimum tariffs can be applied (e.g no parole before 40 years for Ian Huntley). The difference with whole life tariffs is that any parole has to be an appeal to the High Court.
> 
> As with anything in justice, it's a balancing act. I mean someone who stabs another person when they're 20 may well be capable of reform, and having an overly harsh parole regime could just end up with overfilled prisons that disproportionately impact marginalised people as in the US. Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.


Oh, I know it's not the law! I just meant it should be. Sorry that wasn't clear.

It is a funny term, "life sentence". I used to work in the probation service as a receptionist, and was told by one of their experienced officers that some of their most dangerous clients - rapists and even one or two murderers - were technically on a "life" sentence but were just serving it in the community on licence. I left because the office I worked at wanted to get rid of the bullet proof glass window on reception and make it more open-plan, so the clients would find it more "welcoming". Welcome to abuse us? I can get that in a phone-based job but at least you don't need to worry about your physical safety!


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

Cid said:


> Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.



I’d like to think no one is beyond redemption but some cases challenge that idea pretty hard.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Very much what we’ve just been chatting about, the idea that the met is institutionally misogynistic:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read that. So the serving and former police officers quoted think the way to deal with the institutional sexism in the Met is to give the police more powers. To treat violence against women as a national threat on par with terrorism.

This is part of the problem with policing. The answer is to give the institution more power.

When what it needs to do first is sort itself out. If that is possible without undermining the police as an institution.

The officers quoted don't appear to have any knowledge that the Prevent strategy is controversial for example.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 3, 2021)

Hmm. Same unit as Couzens.


----------



## Cid (Oct 3, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Oh, I know it's not the law! I just meant it should be. Sorry that wasn't clear.
> 
> It is a funny term, "life sentence". I used to work in the probation service as a receptionist, and was told by one of their experienced officers that some of their most dangerous clients - rapists and even one or two murderers - were technically on a "life" sentence but were just serving it in the community on licence. I left because the office I worked at wanted to get rid of the bullet proof glass window on reception and make it more open-plan, so the clients would find it more "welcoming". Welcome to abuse us? I can get that in a phone-based job but at least you don't need to worry about your physical safety!



Liked for the interesting experience obviously. I have a friend who worked in parole, more chronic offenders/street homeless, but still much of her job sounds sketchy as fuck. Certainly not something I could do. At one of the major charities now.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> When what it needs to do first is sort itself out. If that is possible without undermining the police as an institution.



The risk of undermining the institution shouldn’t be used as an excuse for not sorting it out, though.  I think that has hampered things for some time.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 3, 2021)

weepiper said:


> Hmm. Same unit as Couzens.




Wonder what his nickname is.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2021)

8ball said:


> The risk of undermining the institution shouldn’t be used as an excuse for not sorting it out, though.  I think that has hampered things for some time.



I think it's what is happening. The Guardian article is an example. The other line of argument is the one rotten apple one.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (Oct 3, 2021)

Women Are Grieving After Gender-Based Violence, But Men Are Still Taking Up Space
					

Intentions might be good, but it's not a time for men to centre themselves.




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Oct 3, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Women Are Grieving After Gender-Based Violence, But Men Are Still Taking Up Space
> 
> 
> Intentions might be good, but it's not a time for men to centre themselves.
> ...



I reacted a little to the headline, then was surprised to find myself agreeing more than I expected.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 3, 2021)

After Sarah Everard’s murder, police powers need to be curbed not strengthened | Shami Chakrabarti
					

There needs to be a full judicial inquiry into the case and broader police culture, says Shami Chakrabarti, former shadow attorney general




					www.theguardian.com
				




Chakrabarti makes the point that police powers should be questioned in light of Everard case. 


> Whether or not you subscribe to the exceptionalist “bad ’un” theory of history, enshrining law and order and protecting the vulnerable is about ensuring we have and balances to prevent abuses of power. Over the last quarter of a century in Britain, many of these protections have been cast aside by successive governments


----------



## 8ball (Oct 4, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> It also makes me angry that the thing that clinched his whole life tariff was reportedly because he misused his warrant card, not just because of the act itself. Why can't that be automatic for anyone who rapes and/or murders someone in cold blood, cop or not?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because one of the protections the police claim is for it to be seen (and sentenced) as worse to kill a police officer than a regular member of the public.  This means that that they need ways of distancing themselves from crimes committed by their ranks wherever possible and means of washing their hands of it, otherwise that protection may not be tolerated.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> After Sarah Everard’s murder, police powers need to be curbed not strengthened | Shami Chakrabarti
> 
> 
> There needs to be a full judicial inquiry into the case and broader police culture, says Shami Chakrabarti, former shadow attorney general
> ...


The powers should absolutely be reviewed. Consequences for abuse of that power should also be reviewed, and if necessary revised.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Wonder what his nickname is.


'the other rapist'?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2021)

A review is currently underway to determine if misogyny will become a crime in its own right, in Scotland:









						Justice secretary: Misogyny may become a stand-alone crime in Scotland
					

Scotland's justice secretary says it would send a "powerful signal" that sexist abuse will not be tolerated.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Oct 4, 2021)

This pretty much nails it:









						Is it really so radical to say the police aren’t fit for purpose? | Nesrine Malik
					

From the UK to the US, the police are there to protect the powerful, not the powerless, says Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> Wonder what his nickname is.


wayne, no doubt


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 4, 2021)

Cid said:


> Personally I find it hard to think of any instance where rape could be redeemable, or where that person could truly be trusted to reintegrate themselves into society though. How we treat that kind of offence may change I suppose.


Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 4, 2021)

teqniq said:


> This pretty much nails it:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends on what their purpose is.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 4, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.


And I think most of us women have met that one guy who, while not an actual rapist, doesn't seem to realise that unwanted touching is assault and will try and make you feel like you're being uptight or a cold bitch when you object.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> And I think most of us women have met that one guy who, while not an actual rapist, doesn't seem to realise that unwanted touching is assault and will try and make you feel like you're being uptight or a cold bitch when you object.


Who doesn't see coercive sex as rape
Who can't have raped anyone because he's such a nice guy 
Who gets a bit touchy feely sometimes


----------



## Zapp Brannigan (Oct 4, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.


Stems from the misconception that all rape is forced sex by a stranger in a dark alleyway, that's the "monstrous" rape.  Completely ignores the (e.g.) man who won't take no at the end of a date, also rape.

Johnson's "We're going to do everything to make sure all rapists are behind bars" is such utter bullshit.  It's the snappy soundbite with no substance whatsoever, no mention of how the tiny, tiny conviction rate is all of a sudden going to jump to 100%.  Certainly no mention that for every rapist there is at least one rape victim, no mention of preventative measures, no mention of cultural shift.  Just some wild fantastical notion of punitive justice as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 4, 2021)

Zapp Brannigan said:


> Stems from the misconception that all rape is forced sex by a stranger in a dark alleyway, that's the "monstrous" rape.  Completely ignores the (e.g.) man who won't take no at the end of a date, also rape.
> 
> Johnson's "We're going to do everything to make sure all rapists are behind bars" is such utter bullshit.  It's the snappy soundbite with no substance whatsoever, no mention of how the tiny, tiny conviction rate is all of a sudden going to jump to 100%.  Certainly no mention that for every rapist there is at least one rape victim, no mention of preventative measures, no mention of cultural shift.  Just some wild fantastical notion of punitive justice as a deterrent despite all evidence to the contrary.


There is also the likelihood that all the focus on punishment - which, I suspect, will equate to a "quick win" by bashing in some severe mandatory sentencing - will achieve is a greater determination amongst (some) rapists to ensure that their victim is in no position to give evidence against them. I have no idea if that is a documented thing, but anything that makes it more likely that a rapist will also kill their victim doesn't seem particularly wise to me. Quite apart from your point that it's all posturing bullshit, anyway.


----------



## Cid (Oct 4, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> Some campaigners have talked about how the 'rapist as monster' idea isn't entirely helpful. Rapists may be your work colleagues, your friends, your family members. It's too common for you to not know some rapists personally. I don't know what the answer is in terms of justice, and it's not really for me to decide that, but the idea that justice would consist of locking up all rapists forever doesn't seem practical, apart from anything else.



I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.

But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.


----------



## Thora (Oct 4, 2021)

Cid said:


> I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.
> 
> But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.


If you asked women how many of them had been coerced or pressured into sex they didn't want by friends, boyfriends, husbands, or had sex they didn't consent to due to being drunk or asleep, I think you might conclude than actually a lot of men are very capable of it


----------



## Thora (Oct 4, 2021)

And the study you link to isn't even about how many men commit rape, it's about how many men (college students) admit to committing rape.


----------



## polly (Oct 4, 2021)

Cid said:


> I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.
> 
> But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.



As Thora says, it's unlikely you don't know a few. I know for sure two men who have raped friends of mine, one of whom was also a very good friend. Someone lovely, caring, funny, sweet etc, who I'd got drunk and vulnerable with countless times. The other is now a family man (it happened a long time ago), really sensitive and artistic. Neither of them monsters. I would say as a man that you shouldn't trust any of your male friends not to be capable of this. That sounds bleak but really, we are products of our environment, at least to an extent, and our environment is fucking toxic and shitty.

(My mum left me alone with the second one for an evening, despite the fact that I told her he had raped my friend and I was scared of him. My mum isn't a monster either.)


----------



## Cid (Oct 4, 2021)

Honestly I'm just going to leave it with what the two you said. I think there are complexities there, but I'm not the right person to unpack them, nor is this the right thread.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2021)

Cid said:


> I dunno. I don't really want to go down this road as it wouldn't really be doing it any justice without actually reading through the research... But iirc their aren't that many studies on how many men have committed rape, and those that do exist (that I'm aware of) are studies on US college campuses. And even within that some groups are more likely than others. I'm sure I've know men who are at least capable of it, less sure I still do (or at least not within immediate circles). I think there's a degree of risk here of just not trusting any of your friends, based on fairly incomplete data. I say that as a man obviously, different degrees of trust.
> 
> But yeah, I do take the point about administration of justice generally. Very hard to work out solutions to this.


There was a law passed some time ago , after a number of high profile cases on college campuses, where colleges must publish figures about how many crimes  haytaken place on the campus each year.

Consequently, very few practice accurate crime reporting and many encourage resolution through internal disciplinary processes rather than involving actual police (campus police forces don't seem to have Investigatory powers or often even training).

As far as I know, there is no mandatory reporting law for colleges and universities in the UK.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> 'the other rapist'?


'Yet another rapist'. 

There've been a few recent stories of policemen asking victims for their phone numbers so they can chat them up/ask them out. I'm 1000% certain that this is so widespread as to be normal behaviour, and seen as a perk of the job. Many times it will lead to sexual encounters with vulnerable women who go through the motions of consenting but are in fact being skilfully and ruthlessly raped. The law wouldn't see it as rape, but to me it's at least as bad as taking advantage of a woman because she's drunk.


----------



## bimble (Oct 4, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> 'Yet another rapist'.
> 
> There've been a few recent stories of policemen asking victims for their phone numbers so they can chat them up/ask them out. I'm 1000% certain that this is so widespread as to be normal behaviour, and seen as a perk of the job. Many times it will lead to sexual encounters with vulnerable women who go through the motions of consenting but are in fact being skilfully and ruthlessly raped. The law wouldn't see it as rape, but to me it's at least as bad as taking advantage of a woman because she's drunk.


This is a really weird post, sorry. Do you mean because of the power imbalance ?


----------



## A380 (Oct 4, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> 'Yet another rapist'.
> 
> There've been a few recent stories of policemen asking victims for their phone numbers so they can chat them up/ask them out. I'm 1000% certain that this is so widespread as to be normal behaviour, and seen as a perk of the job. Many times it will lead to sexual encounters with vulnerable women who go through the motions of consenting but are in fact being skilfully and ruthlessly raped. The law wouldn't see it as rape, but to me it's at least as bad as taking advantage of a woman because she's drunk.


It happens, the numbers bit, but it.s not wide spread as cops do, quite rightly,  get sacked for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> 'Yet another rapist'.


Presumably this would contract to yeti, which would be appropriate as so many policemen are abominable


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2021)

Paige Kimberly's story is getting a lot of time on R4. It's pretty horrifying. It was in the Independent this morning:




> A former Metropolitan Police detective has accused Cressida Dick and Priti Patel of ignoring warnings of ‘vulgar and sexist’ Whatsapp messages in a group chat of Met officers and contractors.
> 
> Retired Detective Superintendent Paige Kimberly said she wrote to Cressida Dick and Priti Patel following the death of Sarah Everard, requesting a review into “how inappropriate behaviour is addressed amongst contract workers.”
> 
> ...











						‘Vulgar and sexist’ WhatsApp texts ignored by bosses, says ex Met detective
					

Both Priti Patel and Cressida Dick ignored the warning, a former Met detective has said




					www.independent.co.uk
				




It was also in the Mail yesterday, in more detail. Long c and p follows, so that people don't have to click there:



> A retired Metropolitan Police detective has accused Scotland Yard chief Cressida Dick of ignoring her warnings about a 'vulgar and sexist' WhatsApp group similar to that used by Sarah Everard killer Wayne Couzens.
> 
> Ex-Detective Superintendent Paige Kimberley claimed she wrote to Dame Cressida shortly after the murder of Miss Everard urging a review of 'how inappropriate behaviour is addressed amongst contract workers'.
> 
> ...











						Met detective 'told Cressida Dick about ''sexist'' WhatsApp messages'
					

Scotland Yard chief Cressida Dick is accused of ignoring warnings that Met Police officers were sharing 'vulgar and sexist' messages via WhatsApp by decorated detective Paige Kimberley.




					www.dailymail.co.uk


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 5, 2021)

The view from Sisters Uncut. Who after the local Labour Party Cllrs backed down took a big part in ensuring the Clapham Common vigil took place. 

I don't think its beyond posdibilty that the leadership of the Met ( Cressida Dick) saw the growing anger around the rape and murder as leading to what she would see as extremist groups gaining ground. So a heavy handed response was required. 









						Sisters Uncut: It’s time we policed the police
					

The direct-action group Sisters Uncut are calling on people to recognise the immense power police have over us and to begin to hold them to account.




					www.huckmag.com
				






> This raises a fundamental question: who polices the police, if not the police? Violence is the norm in policing. Unlike any other public institution, they are empowered to detain, search, strip and question our bodies and our property. And like Couzens, abuse of these powers is a daily part of the role. Just ten days after Couzens used police powers to murder Sarah, senior officers gave the green light for their colleagues to use the same powers to harass, arrest and abuse women at the vigil for Sarah at Clapham Common.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 5, 2021)

A380 said:


> It happens, the numbers bit, but it.s not wide spread as cops do, quite rightly,  get sacked for it.



Many examples of this in the 'dirty rapist cops' thread.


----------



## A380 (Oct 5, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Many examples of this in the 'dirty rapist cops' thread.



Indeed


----------



## StoneRoad (Oct 5, 2021)

JFC on a bike ...









						Boris Johnson does not support making misogyny a hate crime
					

Boris Johnson says there is "abundant statute" to tackle violence against women.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				





but not totally un-expected from the monstrous murdering twat, given his personal history.


----------



## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

So when you were a young kid, you were always told that if you got lost, you should ask a lady for help. Seems things haven't progressed any. 

(And while you'd do what you could and I understand the motivation behind this, is it wrong to feel this is just another bloody thing?)









						Girls told to call women if threatened in wake of Sarah Everard murder
					

London schoolgirls are being taught to shout for a woman to help if they are harassed or in danger, as teachers address pupils’ fears after the murder of Sarah Everard.




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 5, 2021)

'I can't get words of Sarah’s mum out of my head, but Johnson isn't listening'
					

In the aftermath of Sarah Everard's death and her mum's heartbreaking words, Boris Johnson's verdict on misogyny is unforgivable and makes Polly Hudson glad she doesn't have a daughter




					www.mirror.co.uk
				





This is depressing.

I sympathise with the 11-year-old girl in this article because I was an early developer myself, and I was about that age when a man screamed at me from a van "NICE ARSE!" I remember shouting back "I'm underage, you bloody pervert!", to which he seemed genuinely shocked and stammered some excuse about thinking I was 16. It did shake me up, but I don't think I was scared to go out alone because of it, and I think that's because those kinds of guys weren't so blatant then (1998). They seem to have got worse, and I think this Tory government has probably emboldened that kind of behaviour. You'd think attitudes would've improved in 23 years, but it's like we're regressing. But then, what can we expect with a Prime Minister in charge who himself doesn't see women as human beings.

I think misogyny _should_ be considered a hate crime if acted on. Racism is, religion is and some police forces in the UK even recognise being attacked for belonging to a subculture (such as goth or punk) as hate crime. So why is attacking someone for being a woman different? I'm not saying we should go round suing everyone for thinking or feeling a certain way, but if it's bleeding out into their behaviour towards someone - and it invariably does - why is that any different than the other examples?


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## Sue (Oct 5, 2021)

One rotten apple indeed. Ffs 😡

*'A woman who was pictured being arrested at the Sarah Everard vigil has said "about 50" police officers have since contacted her via a dating app, leaving her "terrified".'*









						Sarah Everard vigil: Police officers contacted arrested woman on Tinder
					

Patsy Stevenson says "about 50" officers contacted her after her arrest at a vigil for Sarah Everard.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## LeytonCatLady (Oct 5, 2021)

Sue said:


> One rotten apple indeed. Ffs 😡
> 
> *'A woman who was pictured being arrested at the Sarah Everard vigil has said "about 50" police officers have since contacted her via a dating app, leaving her "terrified".'*
> 
> ...


This is disgusting. Patsy Stevenson comes across as a strong, firm woman who knows her rights. And the police don't like that, which is why they're deliberately trying to intimidate her via Tinder, and clearly the people sending her death threats can't handle that either. The footage from the vigil was blatantly trying to portray her as a troublemaker, with random people on Twitter speculating she'd been "violent" and "caused trouble", but funnily enough couldn't provide proof of that. I hope her legal action against the Met is successful.


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## David Clapson (Oct 5, 2021)

Can we have a discussion about censorship of violence against women in TV/film? Worth starting a separate thread? Or is censorship just a non-starter?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Can we have a discussion about censorship of violence against women in TV/film? Worth starting a separate thread? Or is censorship just a non-starter?


aye, but yes


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## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> 'I can't get words of Sarah’s mum out of my head, but Johnson isn't listening'
> 
> 
> In the aftermath of Sarah Everard's death and her mum's heartbreaking words, Boris Johnson's verdict on misogyny is unforgivable and makes Polly Hudson glad she doesn't have a daughter
> ...


Because criminalising misogyny would potentially criminalise too large a proportion of the population, because that's how pervasive misogyny is. From the stereotypical builders or white van man catcalling women and girls walking down the street, to drunken lairy lads getting a bit handsy in a bar or club, or predators spiking drinks, to the partner who won't accept no for an answer, to the lecherous colleague or client, to the 'stranger danger' sexual assault.


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## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Because criminalising misogyny would potentially criminalise too large a proportion of the population, because that's how pervasive misogyny is. From the stereotypical builders or white van man catcalling women and girls walking down the street, to drunken lairy lads getting a bit handsy in a bar or club, or predators spiking drinks, to the partner who won't accept no for an answer, to the lecherous colleague or client, to the 'stranger danger' sexual assault.


True. I think in that case we need to ask why sexism is somehow more socially acceptable than it is to be racist or homophobic. I posted earlier on this thread about working with women who openly said men were "different species", and have also met blokes who say that about women without fear of reprisals. Whereas if someone made that statement about someone of a different skin colour, ethnic background, religion or sexual orientation, it would quite rightly be viewed as bigotry. So I'd love to know  what it is that, even in this day and age, still makes gender fair game for "othering".


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## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> True. I think in that case we need to ask why sexism is somehow more socially acceptable than it is to be racist or homophobic. I posted earlier on this thread about working with women who openly said men were "different species", and have also met blokes who say that about women without fear of reprisals. Whereas if someone made that statement about someone of a different skin colour, ethnic background, religion or sexual orientation, it would quite rightly be viewed as bigotry. So I'd love to know  what it is that, even in this day and age, still makes gender fair game for "othering".


Good points. And good question. But wouldn't the answer be a bit chicken:egg, ie which came first? Do those women say that because of their negative experiences with men? And vice versa? You're right, though, misogyny/misandry do seem to be weirdly 'acceptable' forms of bigotry in a way that others aren't.

Obviously, as a woman, I'm more concerned about misogyny and misogyny taken to extremes in the context of male violence against women and girls, especially having been on the receiving end of it. To me, it's really weird how, say, two men having a punch up in a pub would likely result in assault charges, but being assaulted by my father or a partner at home gets written off as just 'domestics'. 

The last time my father assaulted me, when I was an adult, neighbours called the police and several cops had to drag my father off me and I had his finger marks on my neck where he'd been throttling me. I went to the police station a day or so later and asked them to do something, ie charge/prosecute him, explaining that I was aware (because a social worker told me when I was 21) that the only reason my father wasn't prosecuted when I was taken into care when I was 13-years-old was because the social services hadn't followed their own procedures.

Fast forward to when I was an adult and I was advocating for myself and asking the police to take action, and the CID officer told me that they would only do something if it was "attempted murder" and I replied that there was a fine line between attempted murder and murder and what if they didn't get there in time the next time?

To me, it does beg the question - as you point out - why sexism is more acceptable? Why did a cop think it was acceptable for my father to assault me, up to and almost including attempted murder? 

In what other sphere of life would that be acceptable? If, say, a boss assaulted an employee, or if a teacher assaulted a pupil, would the cops say 'No biggie, never mind, call us again if they try to kill you?' 

And things are arguably getting worse, rather than better. The Othering seems to be getting worse, especially online and with MRAs and incels and all that kind of stuff that seems to lead to a lot of men developing some quite twisted and hateful ideas about girls and women. Is there a female equivalent?


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## trashpony (Oct 6, 2021)

I’m sorry you have been so badly let down by the people who should be protecting you AnnO'Neemus.

I think a large part of the problem is that women are viewed as men’s possessions. It’s absolutely embedded into the way women are positioned within society - the way we are given away by our fathers to our husbands, dowries, arranged marriages. All of that is treating women as goods and chattels which can be bought and sold. Rape was legal in marriage until 2003. It’s still legal in main countries.
And how often do we hear that line about a woman being someone’s mother or sister or daughter? Like we don’t exist unless it’s in  context to men.
I was also struck by the judge’s comments about Everard being entirely blameless. Are there some women who should be blamed if they’re raped and murdered? Actually we know there are because Sutcliffe got away with his crimes while he was killing prostitutes. Once he killed ‘blameless’ women, the police cared.


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## Poot (Oct 6, 2021)

trashpony said:


> I’m sorry you have been so badly let down by the people who should be protecting you AnnO'Neemus.
> 
> I think a large part of the problem is that women are viewed as men’s possessions. It’s absolutely embedded into the way women are positioned within society - the way we are given away by our fathers to our husbands, dowries, arranged marriages. All of that is treating women as goods and chattels which can be bought and sold. Rape was legal in marriage until 2003. It’s still legal in main countries.
> And how often do we hear that line about a woman being someone’s mother or sister or daughter? Like we don’t exist unless it’s in  context to men.
> I was also struck by the judge’s comments about Everard being entirely blameless. Are there some women who should be blamed if they’re raped and murdered? Actually we know there are because Sutcliffe got away with his crimes while he was killing prostitutes. *Once he killed ‘blameless’ women, the police cared.*


Even then they were ignored. Despite repeatedly saying that he had a local accent the police preferred to believe that crank who called in pretending to be the Yorkshire Ripper (who had a Geordie accent). This was apparently a more reliable source than the actual women who were actually attacked by him.


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## trashpony (Oct 6, 2021)

Poot said:


> Even then they were ignored. Despite repeatedly saying that he had a local accent the police preferred to believe that crank who called in pretending to be the Yorkshire Ripper (who had a Geordie accent). This was apparently a more reliable source than the actual women who were actually attacked by him.


You can’t trust women, particularly prostitutes.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 6, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Because criminalising misogyny would potentially criminalise too large a proportion of the population, because that's how pervasive misogyny is. From the stereotypical builders or white van man catcalling women and girls walking down the street, to drunken lairy lads getting a bit handsy in a bar or club, or predators spiking drinks, to the partner who won't accept no for an answer, to the lecherous colleague or client, to the 'stranger danger' sexual assault.



AFAUI the proposal isn't to make misogyny a crime as such, it's to count it as an aggravating factor in other crimes. It would be mostly relevant to sentencing I think. So the issue would be that it wouldn't make any difference to most of the things you mention there as the perpetrators are vanishingly unlikely to suffer any consequences let alone a criminal conviction.

ETA: Just for clarity that's not an argument that the law shouldn't be changed, just that it would still leave a lot of this stuff unaffected.


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## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Good points. And good question. But wouldn't the answer be a bit chicken:egg, ie which came first? Do those women say that because of their negative experiences with men? And vice versa? You're right, though, misogyny/misandry do seem to be weirdly 'acceptable' forms of bigotry in a way that others aren't.
> 
> Obviously, as a woman, I'm more concerned about misogyny and misogyny taken to extremes in the context of male violence against women and girls, especially having been on the receiving end of it. To me, it's really weird how, say, two men having a punch up in a pub would likely result in assault charges, but being assaulted by my father or a partner at home gets written off as just 'domestics'.
> 
> ...


(1/2) First of all, sorry to hear about what you went through with that man, Ann. He doesn't deserve the title of father. I'm glad you knew your rights and asserted yourself, and angry that the police failed in their legal and moral duty to protect you.

Secondly, rant alert as I respond to the rest of your post (it's a lot, so I'm going to break it into two posts).

It's possible some of my former colleagues did have bad experiences with men, but they all seemed to have good relationships with the men in their lives - dads, brothers, partners etc. None had sons though, interestingly. I wonder if their attitude would've been different if any of them had a little boy. My ex-SIL used to be like that until she remarried and had a son with her next partner. I think these women I worked with probably found common ground moaning about people in general, and it became a habit. Like a lot of office jobs, it could be boring and some people feel the need to gossip and create drama to get through the day. It also didn't help that it was the sort of office where, if there was any issue or misunderstanding, people would go straight to the boss to complain about you, or slag you off behind your back rather than approach you directly, because apparently that's more "professional". (Can you tell I hate that word and how it's misused?) I myself had at least three different complaints made about me by one of these women (same person every time), and all three times the situation was never 100% as she'd claimed. If she'd bothered to get my side of the story first, we could've cleared it up in less than five minutes.

Regarding one bloke they disliked, he was a bit annoying at times but definitely not a predator. He was the receptionist and the only bad thing about him was his habit of commenting on your comings and goings - like "That was a short lunch!" if you popped out briefly to take the air and check your phone before coming back in to eat. However, he stopped doing that after I politely informed him that just because I got a half hour lunch break didn't mean I had to spend the whole of that time outside the building, especially on a below zero day in January, and that we were micromanaged enough by our supervisors without having to also explain ourselves to peers. And he stopped, which they acknowledged. I told them I'd asked him to stop, and if someone's decent, that's all that's required, whereas genuine arseholes don't care. And if he was really sexist, he'd have been doing it to women only, but it was everyone. Also in fairness, I think his boss was pressuring him to "be friendly" and "build rapport". They also didn't like his habit of calling everyone "mate" when they're not his friends. Now I don't personally mind that, but I know some people do, and it's a fair enough point. But they called that sexist because "men shouldn't be mates with women". Er, no. It's not sexism if he's treating you with the same friendliness he would a bloke. In fact, that's the opposite of sexist! If you find him overfamiliar, it's fine to tell him that, but these women just seemed to use "sexist" to mean "anything a bloke does that I don't like". And when I pointed out that in fact, I had a lot of male friends and men and women absolutely can be mates, they scoffed that "They're not your friends, CatLady, they've already got enough mates - called men. You're just a woman they don't find attractive enough to sleep with." I felt free to ignore that, as they didn't know any of my friends, and if anything, their belief that me being in the "friendzone" is some sort of consolation prize or insult says far more about them than it does about me or my mates. Friendship is precious and underrated, and not all women necessarily want a boyfriend. I hadn't identified as asexual at that point, but I'd definitely been single by choice for the five years before that. Anyway, after that, I didn't bother interacting with them other than work-related stuff, and they wrote that off as me thinking I was better than them. 

However, I noticed their double standards about misogyny when we got a temp in who seemed nice enough at first but then commented on the fact I had big breasts. I shut him down with "That's not appropriate", and he protested "But it's a compliment! ISN'T IT?" and glared at me as if daring me to disagree. I replied "Not to me. When you've had boobs since you were 10 and it gets commented on by the world and his wife, I can assure you that shit gets fucking dull after a very short time. So don't comment on my body ever." He retorted "Well, most women would love to have your figure and the admiration that comes with it!" At that point, our boss walked in and overheard the conversation. She politely asked him if she could talk to him in private, and five minutes later he came out of the room handing her back his office fob, and came back to his desk to get his stuff. He said loudly "I feel sick!" and glared at me. I remember glaring back as defiantly as I could to show I wasn't intimidated and he eventually broke eye contact. But the women on the team blamed me for "getting him fired". Their logic was that if I'd just accepted the compliment instead of arguing with him, the boss wouldn't have overheard the conversation, and now he'd lost his job because of me. So they'll label some well-meaning receptionist a sexist because they don't like him, but make excuses for men who really do harass female colleagues, and blame the target of the harassment for not "reacting right". I think they just found it so much easier to pick on an easy target, or someone who makes a mistake, than it is to confront someone who really could get quite nasty. I noticed no one backed me up when I was having to confront Tit Perv, although to be fair, maybe they thought I was handling it OK on my own. Still hypocritical.

On the male side of the coin, my first ex used to say all women were manipulative and wanted to undermine men, and that I was going to hell because I hadn't been baptised. I don't think he'd been treated badly by a woman himself, but he was brought up in a very fundie Catholic family, so he was fed a lot of that bullshit growing up. His dad kicked him out the house at 16 for refusing to go to Mass any more. I remember thinking it interesting that he obviously disowned Catholicism because he didn't like the restrictions, but he didn't mind using it to oppress and score points against other people! His mum didn't like me at all because I wasn't her idea of a "nice little Catholic girl" - dyed my hair crazy colours, drank beer, didn't dress or act in what she considered a feminine way, and had no intention of having children or becoming a housewife if we ever got married, and according to her would probably end up cheating on her son with one of my male friends. Interestingly, he's the one who turned out to be cheating on his "ex" with me. He didn't bother telling me that and neither did his family. So he must have sworn them to secrecy, and they were covering up his lies but looking down on me for not being good enough. Fuck the lot of them. So I think he was more judging me/women by his own standards, and also parroting a lot of misogyny he'd been fed growing up without bothering to question it. It's also possible my ex-colleagues were probably brought up with parents who thought like that too, so that's often a factor. And of course, we all know the double standard of how if a bloke cheats, that's just a bloke thing - if I'd done that to him, I'd be a slag, a slut and all the words beginning with S - to quote "Are Janine" from the_ Fast Show_!


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## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Good points. And good question. But wouldn't the answer be a bit chicken:egg, ie which came first? Do those women say that because of their negative experiences with men? And vice versa? You're right, though, misogyny/misandry do seem to be weirdly 'acceptable' forms of bigotry in a way that others aren't.
> 
> Obviously, as a woman, I'm more concerned about misogyny and misogyny taken to extremes in the context of male violence against women and girls, especially having been on the receiving end of it. To me, it's really weird how, say, two men having a punch up in a pub would likely result in assault charges, but being assaulted by my father or a partner at home gets written off as just 'domestics'.
> 
> ...


(2/2) 
Yeah, the "domestics" thing has always pissed me off. Assault is assault, and if anything is worse from someone who's supposed to love you, and in your own home where you should be safe. I think that's a hangover from the days when DV was considered a "private matter" and the idea that you shouldn't wash your dirty laundry in public. We quite rightly no longer think that way with, say, child abuse. OK, I know adults can technically walk away whereas kids can't, but abusers are clever and deliberately shut off all the victim's escape routes, so in reality it's not really that simple. 

I can't think of a female equivalent of MRA and incels, although there are definitely women who dislike all men and call themselves radfems. I was having a dispute on Twitter recently with a trans-excluding radical feminist, or TERF. A politician had tweeted that Labour were betraying women's rights and safety by wanting trans women to have equal rights, and I replied to him that as a cis woman, I didn't have a problem sharing, say, a ladies' toilet with a trans woman and wouldn't see one as a threat, and that he shouldn't use my rights as an excuse to discriminate against the trans community. A TERF saw my tweet and accused me of being a misogynist, having no compassion and betraying women everywhere. I can understand she might have concerns about sharing a space with someone who's biological sex at birth was identified as male, but she was ranting and acting like I was personally putting her in danger, rather than explaining her concerns and how she thought Labour could address that. It became clear that she thought all men were predators, and that trans women only want to become women so they can get into women's spaces and rape us - despite stats showing that trans women are more likely to be the victim of abuse than the perpetrator, and the fact that rapists will rape without hiding behind equality laws, not to mention that the majority of rapists are cisgender men. She's also made her points on a lot of tweets about the Sarah Everard case, even though Wayne Couzens isn't a trans woman as far as we know. I eventually had to end up blocking and reporting her for using abusive, transphobic language. I personally believe trans women are women, but can also see both sides of the debate regarding female only spaces. I don't know what the answer is that will work for everyone, but we shouldn't be attacking each other. 

In general, typing this out, I've come to the conclusion that maybe sexism is still blatant because it's one of the few prejudices where people hide behind science? For example, there's no scientific reason anyone can use to say that someone of a certain race or skin colour is inferior. But even now, we get studies claiming that women are more emotional and men are more logical (not true across the board), and the stat that women are smaller and weaker (smaller on average, yes, but not automatically weaker, and again, you can get short men and tall women so it also varies). Science around the suffragette era was used by politicians to justify not giving women the vote because our brains were smaller (since debunked). And I'm definitely not disputing that men and women have biological differences, whereas you can't really claim that about different races or sexual orientations. 

Thank you if you're still with me, I talk too much!


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## A380 (Oct 6, 2021)

Sue said:


> One rotten apple indeed. Ffs 😡
> 
> *'A woman who was pictured being arrested at the Sarah Everard vigil has said "about 50" police officers have since contacted her via a dating app, leaving her "terrified".'*
> 
> ...



How would that work? I thought the algorithm matched people based on location setting and then if both parties selected the other by swiping you could start messaging. Is it possible to buy a different type of account that lets you send messages to anyone even if the don’t swipe on you or is Tinder ( or more likely individuals there) colluding with police officers to get round that?


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## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2021)

A380 said:


> How would that work? I thought the algorithm matched people based on location setting and then if both parties selected the other by swiping you could start messaging. Is it possible to buy a different type of account that lets you send messages to anyone even if the don’t swipe on you or is Tinder ( or more likely individuals there) colluding with police officers to get round that?


there are other dating apps


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## Sue (Oct 6, 2021)

A380 said:


> How would that work? I thought the algorithm matched people based on location setting and then if both parties selected the other by swiping you could start messaging. Is it possible to buy a different type of account that lets you send messages to anyone even if the don’t swipe on you or is Tinder ( or more likely individuals there) colluding with police officers to get round that?


I've no idea, never used it.


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## Raheem (Oct 6, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> there are other dating apps


It says Tinder in the story, but I think it's a general thing for dating apps that you can't just message people uninvited, for precisely the obvious reasons. Maybe there are exceptions.


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## two sheds (Oct 6, 2021)

You have to wonder whether they were just isolated contacts


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## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.

It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.

I really don't know.

If she's being bothered then some sort of action/investigation needs to be undertaken. 

But a thing that does puzzle me is that she hasn't changed or closed her tinder account. I accept she shouldn't need to, but if that's the only immediate action she can take to stop the harassment then why hasn't she? I know I would.


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## maomao (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> But a thing that does puzzle me is that she hasn't changed or closed her tinder account. I accept she shouldn't need to, but if that's the only immediate action she can take to stop the harassment then why hasn't she? I know I would.


Why the fuck should she?


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## colacubes (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.
> 
> It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.
> 
> ...



She probably shouldn't wear a short skirt either


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## Thora (Oct 6, 2021)

You could say the same to women who complain about street harassment - why leave the house?


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## Elpenor (Oct 6, 2021)

I have access to lots of peoples private information such as phone number, address etc as part of my job - and, in a previous job, this extended to having access to the salary details of close friends whose employers were clients of my employer. 

The thought of misusing that to harass individuals is completely against my own principles. Should be the same for the cops too, although clearly it isn’t given the sorry low threshold of acceptable behaviour we see all too frequently.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Oct 6, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I have access to lots of peoples private information such as phone number, address etc as part of my job - and, in a previous job, this extended to having access to the salary details of close friends whose employers were clients of my employer.
> 
> The thought of misusing that to harass individuals is completely against my own principles. Should be the same for the cops too, although clearly it isn’t given the sorry low threshold of acceptable behaviour we see all too frequently.


I think it is a disciplinary offence for cops to access their databases/systems for reasons other than in the course of their duties. But it probably happens way more than is investigated/results in disciplinary action.


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## Elpenor (Oct 6, 2021)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I think it is a disciplinary offence for cops to access their databases/systems for reasons other than in the course of their duties. But it probably happens way more than is investigated/results in disciplinary action.


I’m sure it would be, and no doubt searches on IT systems can be tracked, but there’d be no such audit of handwritten notes.


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## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.
> 
> It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.
> 
> ...


Because that doesn't solve the problem long term. I agree there's no shame in choosing to take a break from Tinder or Twitter or whatever if the trolls are getting you down, but that has to be up to the person getting the abuse. Harassing her off Tinder is what these bullies want!


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## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

maomao said:


> Why the fuck should she?


She shouldn't have to nor need to. But if it stops her getting shit then why wouldn't she? I would.


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## Thora (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> She shouldn't have to nor need to. But if it stops her getting shit then why wouldn't she? I would.


You can't just stop doing something every time you get harassed.  You still have to live your life.


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## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Because that doesn't solve the problem long term. I agree there's no shame in choosing to take a break from Tinder or Twitter or whatever if the trolls are getting you down, but that has to be up to the person getting the abuse. Harassing her off Tinder is what these bullies want!


Unfortunately that's true. As I've said in other posts, she shouldn't need or have to.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It says Tinder in the story, but I think it's a general thing for dating apps that you can't just message people uninvited, for precisely the obvious reasons. Maybe there are exceptions.


you can swipe right on someone so you come up on their feed. Those cops didn’t  need to say anything to intimidate Stevenson, just appear in uniform in their profile pics or notify that they’re cops in their written profiles, as described in the BBC article


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## existentialist (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.
> 
> It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.
> 
> ...


I imagine that 99% of people getting similar harassment *do* just shut down the account and walk away. The fact that she has chosen to stand her ground, and speak up about it, means that yet another example of abusive, misogynistic (and not in a Diminic Raab way) behaviour by police officers is known to us.

Whatever her reasons for not backing down, she deserves credit and support for being prepared to stand firm and call this shit out. Whether it achieves anything, of course, is a completely different matter - it is clear to me that this government is hell bent on marginalising any and all examples of police misogyny, and at best treating it as a series of isolated individual cases, rather than an embedded structural problem.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2021)

Thora said:


> You can't just stop doing something every time you get harassed.  You still have to live your life.


aye, she has a right to a love life!


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## existentialist (Oct 6, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I’m sure it would be, and no doubt searches on IT systems can be tracked, but there’d be no such audit of handwritten notes.


Or the passing of someone's name around on a WhatsApp group


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## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I imagine that 99% of people getting similar harassment *do* just shut down the account and walk away. The fact that she has chosen to stand her ground, and speak up about it, means that yet another example of abusive, misogynistic (and not in a Diminic Raab way) behaviour by police officers is known to us.
> 
> Whatever her reasons for not backing down, she deserves credit and support for being prepared to stand firm and call this shit out. Whether it achieves anything, of course, is a completely different matter - it is clear to me that this government is hell bent on marginalising any and all examples of police misogyny, and at best treating it as a series of isolated individual cases, rather than an embedded structural problem.


I agree with you, which is why I said "If she's being bothered then some sort of action/investigation needs to be undertaken."


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## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I agree with you, which is why I said "If she's being bothered then some sort of action/investigation needs to be undertaken."


which means her making a complaint and going through a whole rigmarole about it, taking up her time and with a fairly certain result, ie that any officer deemed to have been harassing her will be given 'words of advice' or similar. and no doubt many of the men who've behaved like this won't have any action taken against them following any complaint. which would be a very poor return for another period of stress.

i can see why she might not want to go through all that. i hope you can too.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> which means her making a complaint and going through a whole rigmarole about it, taking up her time and with a fairly certain result, ie that any officer deemed to have been harassing her will be given 'words of advice' or similar. and no doubt many of the men who've behaved like this won't have any action taken against them following any complaint. which would be a very poor return for another period of stress.
> 
> i can see why she might not want to go through all that. i hope you can too.


I can, and I do.

Any and every woman should be free to go anywhere she wants, any time she wants, and wearing anything she wants. Sadly this is not the world in which we live, yet.

If everyone stood up and protested/complained hopefully, sooner rather than later, we would live in that world.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 6, 2021)

Regarding the misogyny hate crime, am I right in thinking Johnson and now Raab are trying to paint it as the call is just being a woman hater should be a crime, rather than committing a crime because you hate women makes it a more serious offence than just committing it willy-nilly, in the same way that crimes can be racially aggravated and so on?


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Regarding the misogyny hate crime, am I right in thinking Johnson and now Raab are trying to paint it as the call is just being a woman hater should be a crime, rather than committing a crime because you hate women makes it a more serious offence than just committing it willy-nilly, in the same way that crimes can be racially aggravated and so on?



Would that include woman-hating women?


----------



## Sue (Oct 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Regarding the misogyny hate crime, am I right in thinking Johnson and now Raab are trying to paint it as the call is just being a woman hater should be a crime, rather than committing a crime because you hate women makes it a more serious offence than just committing it willy-nilly, in the same way that crimes can be racially aggravated and so on?


I suspect Raab doesn't know what the fuck he's on about.  

Justice Secretary Dominic Raab has been accused of failing to understand the meaning of the word misogyny in an interview about violence against women.
Speaking to the BBC, he said "insults and misogyny is absolutely wrong whether it's a man against a woman or a woman against a man".









						Conservative conference: Dominic Raab criticised for misogyny comments
					

The justice secretary is accused of not understanding the definition of prejudice against women.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2021)

Sue said:


> Speaking to the BBC, he said "insults and misogyny is absolutely wrong whether it's a man against a woman or a woman against a man".



Oh, that's very good.


----------



## Edie (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I can, and I do.
> 
> Any and every woman should be free to go anywhere she wants, any time she wants, and wearing anything she wants. Sadly this is not the world in which we live, yet.
> 
> If everyone stood up and protested/complained hopefully, sooner rather than later, we would live in that world.


I don’t know if I hold with that. I think we all have some responsibility to recognise that if we dress in a particularly provocative or revealing way, you will attract attention. That is the _point_, after all. I don’t think it gives the green light for sexual harassment or assault. 

But I don’t think we are, or should be, free to wear anything we want at any given time. We have a responsibility to consider the effect of what we are wearing on others.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I can, and I do.
> 
> Any and every woman should be free to go anywhere she wants, any time she wants, and wearing anything she wants. Sadly this is not the world in which we live, yet.
> 
> *If everyone stood up and protested/complained hopefully, sooner rather than later, we would live in that world.*


Exactly. I've mentioned before, on this thread and others, how I go out when I want, go to a pub on my own if I want and don't rely on other people to be with me just because it's after dark. If a friend offers to walk me home, I accept but I don't rely on that happening to the point where I can't do stuff if they're not around. And yes, I know it worries my friends and family that I do that, but I refuse to depend on other people. Partly because, like Thora  and Orang Utan said, you have to live/love your life, but also as a form of protest/complaint about restrictions women are pressured to put ourselves under. Yes, maybe what I'm doing does ignore reality, but then again, I don't _want_ it to be reality that even in the 21st century, women can't do stuff. It shouldn't be. I strongly reject that idea! Our foremothers did not fight for us to have the vote, equal pay and equal opportunities just so we can still be told what to do and where we should or shouldn't go at night. There are bad people out there, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for keeping women insecure and dependent. Men also get assaulted, mugged, stabbed etc. but they don't get victim-blamed for being out after dark, and women shouldn't either.

By the way dessiato , you come across as a good kind bloke and I think you're probably looking at the situation with a protective eye because you don't like to see women getting hurt. I understand that, and appreciate you listening to our explanations as to why it's not that simple.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 6, 2021)

Edie said:


> But I don’t think we are, or should be, free to wear anything we want at any given time. We have a responsibility to consider the effect of what we are wearing on others.



I'm not sure where the bar is here.  If you like to adorn yourself in garb covered in racial slurs or spinning blades, then I get that... 

Or getting your bits out in certain situations etc.

Otherwise, I think so long as there isn't some kind of health/safety issue, then while some we obviously know some social sanctions and judgement may occur for wildly inappropriate clothing, being harassed and/or attacked, and/or blame being re-apportioned in such cases - that shouldn't remotely be part of the equation.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.
> 
> It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.
> 
> ...


Why close her account when the police on Tinder are piling up their own evidence of their misconduct? Give a (police)man enough rope and he'll hang himself.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Why close her account when the police on Tinder are piling up their own evidence of their misconduct? Give a (police)man enough rope and he'll hang himself.


I laughed, but it's actually a very good point. That's why they advise you not to delete abusive emails, but rather create a separate folder you can redirect them, so you've got the evidence if it's needed but you don't need to read it.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 6, 2021)

She doesn't necessarily need to complain formally...the press coverage has already done a good job of showing up the Met. Well done her.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 6, 2021)

And if Dick was any kind of honorable policewomen she would be all over this like a fire breathing dragon. Instead I predict some weaselly statement of the duplicitous rank closing kind


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 6, 2021)

Edie said:


> I don’t know if I hold with that. I think we all have some responsibility to recognise that if we dress in a particularly provocative or revealing way, you will attract attention. That is the _point_, after all. I don’t think it gives the green light for sexual harassment or assault.
> 
> But I don’t think we are, or should be, free to wear anything we want at any given time. We have a responsibility to consider the effect of what we are wearing on others.



Can you give a specific example? Genuinely trying to understand what you mean. Do you mean it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to wear a mini skirt if I was going to visit a synagogue or something?


----------



## bimble (Oct 6, 2021)

Edie said:


> I don’t know if I hold with that. I think we all have some responsibility to recognise that if we dress in a particularly provocative or revealing way, you will attract attention. That is the _point_, after all. I don’t think it gives the green light for sexual harassment or assault.
> 
> But I don’t think we are, or should be, free to wear anything we want at any given time. We have a responsibility to consider the effect of what we are wearing on others.


i agree with you. It's a difficult one to talk about.
My ideas are impacted by the fact that I've done quite a bit of travel, some to do with work, often in places where for example women never show their legs at all, or their shoulders etc, depending. If you were to turn up in a strappy vest and short shorts and expect to be treated with any kind of respect by anybody, men or women, because 'its my right to wear whatever i want', you'd be (imo) a fool. And even though we like to imagine that its entirely different here nobody cares or nobody judges or reacts or whatever, thats just not how things work. 

The most important bit though is, as you say, that nothing a person wears is any kind of green light for harassment or assault.  That's the bit that matters.


----------



## Edie (Oct 6, 2021)

purenarcotic said:


> Can you give a specific example? Genuinely trying to understand what you mean. Do you mean it wouldn’t be appropriate for me to wear a mini skirt if I was going to visit a synagogue or something?


Yes, or for me to wear a very revealing top on a Ward round, etc


----------



## dessiato (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> ...
> 
> By the way dessiato , you come across as a good kind bloke and I think you're probably looking at the situation with a protective eye because you don't like to see women getting hurt. I understand that, and appreciate you listening to our explanations as to why it's not that simple.


I do try to understand. I have a wife, four sisters, and seven nieces. I have listened to one sister talk about being raped, another being sexually abused, so yes, I want to protect them, but not just them, every single female. If feeling like this makes me wrong, so be it.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I do try to understand. I have a wife, four sisters, and seven nieces. I have listened to one sister talk about being raped, another being sexually abused, so yes, I want to protect them, but not just them, every single female. If feeling like this makes me wrong, so be it.


No, not "so be it". You can feel protective of your loved ones - it's what you do and say about it that can be tweaked and improved., and I took LeytonCatLady's post as some gentle pointers as to how the experience of being a woman does not necessarily fit neatly alongside the male experience of wanting to protect, etc., in the way that we (men) might be prone to thinking it does.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

existentialist said:


> No, not "so be it". You can feel protective of your loved ones - it's what you do and say about it that can be tweaked and improved., and I took LeytonCatLady's post as some gentle pointers as to how the experience of being a woman does not necessarily fit neatly alongside the male experience of wanting to protect, etc., in the way that we (men) might be prone to thinking it does.


Yeah, that's pretty much it. It's good to want to protect your loved ones as long as you respect their autonomy and choices, which it sounds like dessiato does. The problem is when the Met give out bullshit, victim blamey advice like "Don't go out at night, ladies, for your own good" because they can't admit THEY fucked up in ignoring the red flags regarding Couzens.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 6, 2021)

Saw this on fb today.



I wonder what the equivalent for the men was.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> Saw this on fb today.
> 
> View attachment 291516
> 
> I wonder what the equivalent for the men was.


There wasn't. And I love the assumption that everyone drives...


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> There wasn't. And I love the assumption that everyone drives...




Over here, most women drive.
My daughters always drove themselves to events instead of car sharing.
It made them feel safer not having to rely on others.

But, there is an assumption that all females have a cell phone.
I don't, so it doesn't matter about that line about the charger.

Do you any issues with the other stuff suggested?


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> Do you any issues with the other stuff suggested?


Not if people are in a position to take those suggestions. But someone might not always have a choice (for example, might not have internet banking and might need to run to a cashpoint for an emergency tenner). My post wasn't having a go at you, by the way; in fact it was agreement with your point that this advice doesn't get given to blokes because it's assumed they can just...live their life. And admittedly my driving roll-eye was pretty London-centric! But even in the rest of the UK, plenty of people can't afford to drive and might rely on public transport (for example, my mum couldn't afford lessons until she was almost 50).


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 6, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Not if people are in a position to take those suggestions. But someone might not always have a choice (for example, might not have internet banking and might need to run to a cashpoint for an emergency tenner). My post wasn't having a go at you, by the way; in fact it was agreement with your point that this advice doesn't get given to blokes because it's assumed they can just...live their life. And admittedly my driving roll-eye was pretty London-centric! But even in the rest of the UK, plenty of people can't afford to drive and might rely on public transport (for example, my mum couldn't afford lessons until she was almost 50).




All the above are good reasons why this was posted on a Canadian news feed and not a British one.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 6, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> All the above are good reasons why this was posted on a Canadian news feed and not a British one.


OK, my bad, I didn't realise that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 6, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> Saw this on fb today.
> 
> View attachment 291516
> 
> I wonder what the equivalent for the men was.


Soz was that posted by a man or a woman?


----------



## Glitter (Oct 6, 2021)

So, on a thread about a woman who was kidnapped, raped and murdered we are basically saying women should stop doing anything if their behaviour leads them to get harrassed (at best)

Mint. Just fucking mint. 

I want to say ‘have some fucking respect’ but if women had that we wouldn’t be in this situation.

This thread is a shitshow.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 6, 2021)

Glitter said:


> So, on a thread about a woman who was kidnapped, raped and murdered we are basically saying women should stop doing anything if their behaviour leads them to get harrassed (at best)
> 
> Mint. Just fucking mint.
> 
> ...


BY A COPPER.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Soz was that posted by a man or a woman?



What an odd question!

I'm fairly certain that a female shared it. 
No clue who wrote it though.

Why would it matter?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2021)

dessiato said:


> I'm a bit puzzled by the story. She might, due to her experience, be very much more aware of police officers appearing.
> 
> It might be true that there's a lot of dodgy coppers contacting her now.
> 
> ...


Let's  believe her account of events that are happening to her

  and not  suggest she modifies her behaviour to stop people doing something threatening


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 6, 2021)

weepiper said:


> BY A COPPER.




To be honest, all the precautions in the world would not have prevented what happened to Sarah.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 6, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> To be honest, all the precautions in the world would not have prevented what happened to Sarah.


Nothing that _she_ could have done would have prevented it. His employer taking some action after his previous massive red flag behaviour might have.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 6, 2021)

I'm so angry about this. And about * waves hands * _all of it_. Just as an example, here is a local Wayne Couzens waiting to happen (or maybe he's already happened, just not been caught). This guy might have sat behind me on the bus, or walked his dog past my house of an evening, or be someone I know. And he's just walking around out there still. The fucking cognitive dissonance of existing in a world alongside all the men that you know and like and then being aware that some of them might have done something like this, and how are we (women) supposed to be able to tell which ones are which?









						DNA advances link Edinburgh rapist to third attack on women
					

A man who assaulted Jenna Pike in Edinburgh in 2012 went on to rape one woman and sexually assault another.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> What an odd question!
> 
> I'm fairly certain that a female shared it.
> No clue who wrote it though.
> ...


It's really peculiar. It's fall and it's about to get dark earlier - like it hasn't been getting dark earlier for months already. It's all you and not we. Just really odd the way it's framed


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's really peculiar. It's fall and it's about to get dark earlier - like it hasn't been getting dark earlier for months already. It's all you and not we. Just really odd the way it's framed




The point was that there is a list for women to keep safe, but there is no list for men.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 7, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> The point was that there is a list for women to keep safe, but there is no list for men.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> The point was that there is a list for women to keep safe, but there is no list for men.


The point is it's a patronising list most likely written by a man for women when the list for men might be similar to what ou has posted. Or a simpler one line I'll leave to your imagination


----------



## Plumdaff (Oct 7, 2021)

When men get assaulted in the street they don't get this fucking discourse of "he was asking for it, getting drunk in a pub......wandering home by himself eating a kebab, what did he think would happen?"


----------



## polly (Oct 7, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> When men get assaulted in the street they don't get this fucking discourse of "he was asking for it, getting drunk in a pub......wandering home by himself eating a kebab, what did he think would happen?"



Or indeed the version that we've seen here of 'IF it went down the way she said it did, why didn't she...' Basically the same old shit repackaged.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 7, 2021)

Plumdaff said:


> When men get assaulted in the street they don't get this fucking discourse of "he was asking for it, getting drunk in a pub......wandering home by himself eating a kebab, what did he think would happen?"


We sometimes get a watered down version. The police advised me never to talk to anyone in Windrush Square late at night. So I immediately felt it was my fault that I was robbed.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> i agree with you. It's a difficult one to talk about.
> My ideas are impacted by the fact that I've done quite a bit of travel, some to do with work, often in places where for example women never show their legs at all, or their shoulders etc, depending. If you were to turn up in a strappy vest and short shorts and expect to be treated with any kind of respect by anybody, men or women, because 'its my right to wear whatever i want', you'd be (imo) a fool. And even though we like to imagine that its entirely different here nobody cares or nobody judges or reacts or whatever, thats just not how things work.
> 
> The most important bit though is, as you say, that nothing a person wears is any kind of green light for harassment or assault.  That's the bit that matters.


I get that realistically if your going abroad this might be the case.

But isn't what your describing an effect of Patriarchal societies? That in certain societies you at best as a woman would be considered foolish for dressing how you like!?
I


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2021)

men walking round in expensive suits and wearing expensive watches are just asking to be robbed - judges should mention this and take it into consideration if it comes to court. Same with expensive cars - they're just asking for it


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2021)

Edie said:


> I don’t know if I hold with that. I think we all have some responsibility to recognise that if we dress in a particularly provocative or revealing way, you will attract attention. That is the _point_, after all. I don’t think it gives the green light for sexual harassment or assault.
> 
> But I don’t think we are, or should be, free to wear anything we want at any given time. We have a responsibility to consider the effect of what we are wearing on others.



What your missing here is who the We is who decides what is provocative. Provocative is a strong word to use. It implies that knowingly dressing in a certain way will provoke others not in a good way. 

Of course the We is generally men in a patriarchal society. Who decide what is or isn't something that will "provoke" them. Its not women.

What is considered provocative has changed over time. Its also something that has been a contested area.

Rather than see it as a responsibility issue its Imo better to see it as contested area.

I sometimes work for a fashion company. There the norms about dress are quite different to everyday society. What I'm saying is that dress isn't something with a fixed system.

The underlying problem is that at this time there isn't a way for people to dress in way that attracts attention without the underlying danger of abuse. A healthy sexual culture where people of all sexualities can be sexual and mix. With attention being part of this in way that isn't threatening social censure or violence. Which imo is point of sexual liberation.

I say people as I've known people who have fluid dress sense. Non binary. Been in public social situation where they got stick.


----------



## weltweit (Oct 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> men walking round in expensive suits and wearing expensive watches are just asking to be robbed - judges should mention this and take it into consideration if it comes to court. Same with expensive cars - they're just asking for it


TBF I have always avoided expensive cars even when I might have been able to afford them because I like to be able to park pretty much anywhere and not come back to my car all keyed. Despite all that on the first day I had a 2l Cavalier in dark metalic blue it was keyed outside my house apparently because the keyer thought it was a car owned by a policeman or woman from the station at the bottom of the road.


----------



## bimble (Oct 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> men walking round in expensive suits and wearing expensive watches are just asking to be robbed - judges should mention this and take it into consideration if it comes to court. Same with expensive cars - they're just asking for it


Theft of property as a metaphor for sexual assault, is popular but a really bad idea.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2021)

not really a metaphor - only the difference in reaction of judges to the two court cases.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Theft of property as a metaphor for sexual assault, is popular but a really bad idea.



I think this is a bad idea? 



> If you were to turn up in a strappy vest and short shorts and expect to be treated with any kind of respect by anybody, men or women, because 'its my right to wear whatever i want', you'd be (imo) a fool


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> not really a metaphor - only the difference in reaction of judges to the two court cases.



What you were saying if I get you right is that there is a double standard.

To add. It wasn't a metaphor.

It was pointing out that men don't get blame attributed to them re how they dress if victim and women often have.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 7, 2021)

Sounds like Couzens was always a little prick. How did no one see it? Didn't his parents, teachers etc notice him bullying other kids and other warped behaviour?






						Wayne Couzens was just 14 when he shot a classmate with an airgun - johnscience.com
					

A violent oddball obsessed with guns and porn: Killer cop Wayne Couzens – who has now admitted to murdering Sarah




					johnscience.com


----------



## keybored (Oct 7, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Sounds like Couzens was always a little prick. How did no one see it? Didn't his parents, teachers etc notice him bullying other kids and other warped behaviour?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> A relative of that victim said: ‘Wayne certainly had a violent streak in school. I know from talking to others that it’s surprising he managed to join the police force.’



I had to read that twice to confirm the word "not" seems to have been omitted. 

Either that or this relative lives on another planet.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 7, 2021)

keybored said:


> I had to read that twice to confirm the word "not" seems to have been omitted.
> 
> Either that or this relative lives on another planet.


Same! That's exactly _why_ he got into the police force, because while not all coppers are arseholes, the force definitely provides opportunities for that type.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 7, 2021)

and exactly why he'd want to apply


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 8, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> View attachment 291600




That is really a list to make people feel good, maybe a bit of a giggle.

It is not an appropriate list of personal safety, it was how not to rape.
My list was a list of things women can do to stay safe.

A while back I watched a video - wish I could find it.

It was about a professor  at a college/university.

He asked the women what the did every morning to stay safe.
Answers were similar to the list, but was more varied.
The women gave lots of examples, one was how to carry your keys.
I still do that.

After the women's finished and the answers were on the board, he asked the men the same question.
The men had nothing, personal safety was not a priority for them.

Until men understand what we have to go through, they will never understand.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 8, 2021)

The was a country song a while back called "drunk girl"

This was the chorus-



> Take a drunk girl home
> Let her sleep all alone
> Leave her keys on the counter, your number by the phone
> Pick up her life she threw on the floor
> ...



Total respect to the men who do this.


----------



## bimble (Oct 8, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I think this is a bad idea?


I can’t engage properly right now (am away & like I said I know it’s difficult to talk about because it’s not ideal world stuff), it’s just very much a fact though in my experience sadly.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2021)

> A relative of that victim said: ‘Wayne certainly had a violent streak in school. I know from talking to others that it’s surprising he managed to join the police force.’



I find it desperately sad that someone seems to genuinely believe that the police would want to _avoid_ hiring violent arseholes. It's the standard job for the school bully to end up in.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 8, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I find it desperately sad that someone seems to genuinely believe that the police would want to _avoid_ hiring violent arseholes. It's the standard job for the school bully to end up in.


Not quite the same thing, but one of my schoolfriends at 12 or 13 could be an outrageous liar. When I heard she now works in a Jobcentre, I nodded and thought "Yeah, figures!"


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 8, 2021)

Regarding the double standard about not going out after dark and men not getting the same advice about avoiding danger. I wonder if that's due to the different types of violence the sexes are more likely to experience. Women are at higher risk of sexual violence, but with blokes it's more likely to be a mugging or stabbing. So I'm wondering whether the attitude is that most lads have to go through a fight at some point, but girls should protect themselves from being "defiled" at all costs. I believe this mentality goes back to when we were property. Some guys still have the notion that they can have as many girlfriends as they want, but a woman is "sloppy seconds" or "damaged goods" if she's had a sexual history before him - which is a fucking horrible way to describe a human being, but I have actually spoken to one or two blokes who blatantly use those terms. As much as I believe Philip Allott's "Don't go out/be streetwise when you do" is largely well meaning if ill worded, I definitely think there's a few of his colleagues giving that advice who aren't so much telling us to avoid being raped because we have the right not to be raped, but because they see women as "belonging" to men like them. Probably the same type of old school cops who don't give a shit if a woman's being abused at home and dismiss it as "just a domestic".


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 9, 2021)

888 app plan to protect women ‘sticking plaster that reinforces victim blaming’
					

Activists say UK government-backed proposal places onus on women to safeguard themselves rather than address societal problems




					www.theguardian.com
				






Chester for Prime Minister!


----------



## bluescreen (Oct 9, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> 888 app plan to protect women ‘sticking plaster that reinforces victim blaming’
> 
> 
> Activists say UK government-backed proposal places onus on women to safeguard themselves rather than address societal problems
> ...



When I heard about this app my first thought was: What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## baldrick (Oct 12, 2021)

Just seen this story on BBC News. Flashing incident from 2008. 2008!

On my phone so not sure if the link will work

Sarah Everard murder: Emma B says Wayne Couzens exposed himself to her


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2021)

Privacy fears over ‘terribly misguided‘ and ‘flawed’ 888 tracking service for women
					

‘Tracking women’s movements is not a solution for male violence’ says campaigner




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Silkie Carlo, director of campaign group, Big Brother Watch, told The Independent: “Tracking women’s movements is not a solution for male violence. This is a terribly misguided, invasive and offensive policy that misdiagnoses the problem and will do nothing to make women safer.”
> 
> Leigh Morgan, senior legal officer at Rights of Women, said the scheme was “deeply flawed in its approach and expectation on women to adapt our lives to try and ensure safety from male violence.”
> 
> ...



last paragraph particularly relevant I think (although all are).


----------



## Wilf (Oct 12, 2021)

Apols if already posted, but DJ says police laughed in her face when she reported who she thinks was wayne couzens for exposing himself 13 years ago   









						Radio DJ Emma B says Wayne Couzens flashed her in 2008
					

Magic FM DJ Emma Wilson says police ‘laughed in her face’ when she reported incident in south London




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 13, 2021)

Not sure where best to post this, but it seems that yet another woman has been murdered by her husband:  Husband a ‘suspect’ as Tirop found dead


----------



## A380 (Oct 14, 2021)

Police chief resigns after suggesting Sarah Everard was not ‘streetwise’
					

Tory police chief Philip Allott lost a vote of no confidence earlier today after being accused of victim blaming.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Not sure where best to post this, but it seems that yet another woman has been murdered by her husband:  Husband a ‘suspect’ as Tirop found dead



Unfortunately, you don't need to go all the way to Kenya to look for women being murdered by men.

*81 women have been murdered by men in the UK since Sarah Everard was killed.*

That's right, 81. In 28 weeks.









						The 81 women killed in 28 weeks
					

Since Sarah Everard’s brutal murder, only one thing has changed – the death toll




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## izz (Oct 15, 2021)

A380 said:


> Police chief resigns after suggesting Sarah Everard was not ‘streetwise’
> 
> 
> Tory police chief Philip Allott lost a vote of no confidence earlier today after being accused of victim blaming.
> ...


Good. I wrote to him and got a totally bland reply but I'm glad he's gone, he wasn't fit for public office.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2021)

A380 said:


> Police chief resigns after suggesting Sarah Everard was not ‘streetwise’
> 
> 
> Tory police chief Philip Allott lost a vote of no confidence earlier today after being accused of victim blaming.
> ...



At least he resigned. 

Unlike Cressida "flag down a bus" Dick.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 16, 2021)

Hello to watchers of this thread, may I draw your attention to this? Brixton news, rumours and general chat


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 17, 2021)

Police monitoring a registered sex offender fail to stop him reoffending:









						Man admits rape and murder of Glasgow pensioner
					

Esther Brown, 67, was attacked by Jason Graham while he was being monitored by police as a sex offender.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




They knew he was a danger yet whatever the monitoring was, it was clearly deficient.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 17, 2021)

It really does feel like there is a war on women and the police are doing nothing to stop it.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 17, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> It really does feel like there is a war on women and the police are doing nothing to stop it.


You sure they're not leading it?


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 17, 2021)

I still don't understand how misogyny isn't a hate crime.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I still don't understand how misogyny isn't a hate crime.


It's astounding. Just looking narrowly at protected characteristics under equality legislation, and leaving morality and everything else out of the argument for a moment, how can eg religion be such an aggravating factor in cases where sex (f/m) isn't? For Johnson to say no it'd make work for the police, fucking beggars belief.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2021)

existentialist said:


> You sure they're not leading it?


When you look at the abject way dv and sexual offences are investigated it's hard not to suspect that there's a default position to only pay lip service to dealing with those crimes. And when apparently 2/5 forces don't have units focussing on rapes you have to question how seriously they even take lip service.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's astounding. Just looking narrowly at protected characteristics under equality legislation, and leaving morality and everything else out of the argument for a moment, how can eg religion be such an aggravating factor in cases where sex (f/m) isn't? For Johnson to say no it'd make work for the police, fucking beggars belief.


Misogyny and religion very often go hand in hand. For centuries the Catholic Church blamed women (and the devil too natch) for the existence of sin in the world. So if you attack misogyny you should attack most traditional religions. That will never happen while we live in a non-secular state, where the head of state is appointed by God.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Misogyny and religion very often go hand in hand. For centuries the Catholic Church blamed women (and the devil too natch) for the existence of sin in the world. So if you attack misogyny you should attack most traditional religions. That will never happen while we live in a non-secular state, where the head of state is appointed by God.


Gpwm


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 17, 2021)

Christianity was mysogynistic right from the get go. The story of Adam & Eve is a nasty story


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 17, 2021)

Having something as a hate crime impacts what? Sentencing and stat collection? What is the fucking excuse?! It's not even more work for the police. Fuck everything. You're all fucking lucky that women commit sod all violent crime and are socialised into being caring.


----------



## Winot (Oct 17, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Christianity was mysogynistic right from the get go. The story of Adam & Eve is a nasty story


I went to an interesting lecture once which traced the artistic representations of the Adam and Eve story throughout the ages, and how the emphasis on the tempter had shifted from the serpent to Eve. The final painting (17th century maybe) had Eve's face superimposed on the serpent's body.


----------



## little_legs (Oct 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's astounding. Just looking narrowly at protected characteristics under equality legislation, and leaving morality and everything else out of the argument for a moment, how can eg religion be such an aggravating factor in cases where sex (f/m) isn't? For Johnson to say no it'd make work for the police, fucking beggars belief.


He said no to it because he doesn’t want to be done for it himself. He is 100% guilty of it himself. Even as a serving PM, which  presumably protects him for the time being, he’d open himself for all kinds of litigation.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 18, 2021)

Did this crossed any one's radar.
When I saw the headline in my fb, I thought it was India or some place.
Nope, in the good old US of A.

I have not read any articles on this.  Just seeing the headlines makes me feel sick.







						Google News - <!-- "> '> --><title>
					






					news.google.com
				












						Police say bystanders "should've intervened" as woman was raped on Philadelphia train
					

Police said a woman was raped on a suburban Philadelphia train on October 13 and there were "a lot of people" around who "should have done something," but the district attorney later disputed aspects of that account regarding the bystanders. Police said they had arrested a man connected to the...




					news.google.com


----------



## dessiato (Oct 18, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> Did this crossed any one's radar.
> When I saw the headline in my fb, I thought it was India or some place.
> Nope, in the good old US of A.
> 
> ...


Do you have any other links? This is unavailable here. Thanks.


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 18, 2021)

I'm going to put this thread on ignore. That's not the kind of thing I can cope with knowing.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 18, 2021)

wtfftw said:


> I'm going to put this thread on ignore. That's not the kind of thing I can cope with knowing.


Understandable. It's pretty horrific stuff.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 19, 2021)

This twitter about spiking of drinks horrifies me. I think all men need to see it.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 19, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Do you have any other links? This is unavailable here. Thanks.




The entire issue really upsets me, but since you asked so nicely - here is a cnn  one.









						A woman on a SEPTA train was sexually assaulted while other riders failed to intervene, authorities say | CNN
					

A woman was allegedly sexually assaulted on a transit train in Philadelphia last week even as a number of witnesses failed to stop the incident or call police, authorities said.




					www.cnn.com
				




If this one doesn't work for you, I would suggest googling some of the key words.


----------



## dessiato (Oct 19, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> The entire issue really upsets me, but since you asked so nicely - here is a cnn  one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Words fail me. The poor woman, to have not only to go through that ordeal, but to have no one go to her. And to record it…


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 20, 2021)

Again, this thread seems to be the place where exploitation of females is common.

This is the new outfit that the Hooters restaurant chain wants their waitresses to wear.




After this hit the social media circuit, the company is now saying that it is preferable but not mandatory.

Disgusting!!!!


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2021)

I don't think we have Hooters in the UK, but isn't it the whole concept about leering at half-dressed waitresses?


----------



## oryx (Oct 20, 2021)

Bloody hell, the idea that places like that exist...


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think we have Hooters in the UK, but isn't it the whole concept about leering at half-dressed waitresses?


Unfortunately we do. And there were plenty of fellas here defending it when it opened


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Unfortunately we do. And there were plenty of fellas here defending it when it opened


Really? How do they square it with sex discrimination law?

ETA. Google backs you up. There is one in Nottingham. I'm really surprised though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Really? How do they square it with sex discrimination law?
> 
> ETA. Google backs you up. There is one in Nottingham. I'm really surprised though.


Go check out the thread when it was announced they were opening a branch in Cardiff


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Go check out the thread when it was announced they were opening a branch in Cardiff


Turns out I was the last person to post on the thread, having just asked how they get around discrimination law.


----------



## spring-peeper (Oct 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Turns out I was the last person to post on the thread, having just asked how they get around discrimination law.




Let me guess - "it is their choice" or "put men in speedos"


oooo - don't get me started on speedos!!!!


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2021)

spring-peeper said:


> Let me guess - "it is their choice" or "put men in speedos"
> 
> 
> oooo - don't get me started on speedos!!!!


Someone suggested they class the waitresses as actresses to get around the law, but I don't know if that's true or not.

I will try to remember not to get you started on Speedos.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Go check out the thread when it was announced they were opening a branch in Cardiff


Been closed ages.


----------



## bimble (Oct 20, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> This twitter about spiking of drinks horrifies me. I think all men need to see it.





yes. i cant even process this, its too much. 
its not spiking of drinks its injecting of women with needles.

its in the guardian now.








						Police investigate reports of spiking by needle at Nottingham clubs
					

One man arrested after woman reports ‘scratching sensation’, as campaign group calls for boycotts




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 20, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Been closed ages.


The whole shitty debate is still up there though


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think we have Hooters in the UK, but isn't it the whole concept about leering at half-dressed waitresses?


There's one in Nottingham which I believe is the only one in the whole UK, I've never been but my Son-in-Law went three or four years ago on a office night out. He reported that the food is good but not exceptional and no better than many other places in the city so pretty much the main reason for anyone to go is the scantily clad waitresses. When Mrs Q gave him the meaningful stare over the top of her glasses, he insisted that our eldest daughter (his wife) was more attractive than any of them.
I think he felt a little embarrassed about it tbh. Apparently though they now do Deliveroo which seems to me to undermine their entire business model.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 20, 2021)

I went to a Hooters in the US with a group of friends. It wasn’t very good, my mate was convinced he could get the number of the waitress as she was flirting and chatting with him 

If I want fast food, sports and beers, I’d go for Buffalo Wild Wings anyway which I’ve always enjoyed. 

It’s a shame the sports bar concept doesn’t work in the UK as well as it does over there, largely as only football really has tribal followings (too tribal that’s the problem as seen with the violence at Wembley this year) and there’s a bit of a gap in the summer offseason, whereas the US has the big 4 sports which cover all the seasons.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 20, 2021)

Quite a lot of news today:









						Women's safety: Police video calls to verify Met officers
					

Dame Cressida Dick announces a new system for the Met after the kidnap and murder of Sarah Everard.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						Priti Patel wants police briefing on needle spiking incidents
					

Police asked to give urgent update on investigation into reports of women being drugged via drinks or needles




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## pogofish (Oct 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Someone suggested they class the waitresses as actresses to get around the law, but I don't know if that's true or not.
> 
> I will try to remember not to get you started on Speedos.



One of the clothes chains does similar - Classes its staff as "models" and has things like shorts and swimsuit/beachwear days.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 20, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Go check out the thread when it was announced they were opening a branch in Cardiff


That thread did at least have this exchange:



Gromit said:


> To be honest I've changed my opinion on Hooters.
> 
> It should be banned.
> 
> ...





Edie said:


> Oh fuck off you absolute cunt. I would literally kick your head in if you were stood right next to me.


Go Edie !


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 20, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> I went to a Hooters in the US with a group of friends. It wasn’t very good, my mate was convinced he could get the number of the waitress as she was flirting and chatting with him
> 
> If I want fast food, sports and beers, I’d go for Buffalo Wild Wings anyway which I’ve always enjoyed.
> 
> It’s a shame the sports bar concept doesn’t work in the UK as well as it does over there, largely as only football really has tribal followings (too tribal that’s the problem as seen with the violence at Wembley this year) and there’s a bit of a gap in the summer offseason, whereas the US has the big 4 sports which cover all the seasons.


I went to a Hooters in the States as well. My boss took me there one lunch time. I'd never heard of it before. What impressed me was the complete disdain and contempt that the waitresses held for the punters. I was also shocked at the reaction of my work colleagues to a waiter wearing a kilt. They were shocked. You couldn't make it up.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 20, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> 'Yet another rapist'.
> 
> There've been a few recent stories of policemen asking victims for their phone numbers so they can chat them up/ask them out. I'm 1000% certain that this is so widespread as to be normal behaviour, and seen as a perk of the job. Many times it will lead to sexual encounters with vulnerable women who go through the motions of consenting but are in fact being skilfully and ruthlessly raped. The law wouldn't see it as rape, but to me it's at least as bad as taking advantage of a woman because she's drunk.



Oh look. Big surprise. ‘My friends called him PC Perv’: the police officers who prey on crime victims for sex


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 20, 2021)

Latest plan from Killer Dick is for solo plainclothes filth to do a video chat with a uniformed officer to confirm their identity if arresting a woman. Which is fine as long as no filth are rapists, and no rapists have a mate who can dress up as a copper.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 20, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Latest plan from Killer Dick is for solo plainclothes filth to do a video chat with a uniformed officer to confirm their identity if arresting a woman. Which is fine as long as no filth are rapists, and no rapists have a mate who can dress up as a copper.



I thought this might be a joke.

But it's not.









						Women's safety: Police video calls to verify Met officers
					

Dame Cressida Dick announces a new system for the Met after the kidnap and murder of Sarah Everard.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Cressida Dick the coppers copper.

She really does back up her boys on the beat.

I can only believe this is serious suggestion if one sees Cressida Dick as management.

Bringing in laughable policy to allay public fears of the Cops. Typical management exercise in deflecting bad PR. 

Another reason for her to go.

She needs some lessons in PR.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I thought this might be a joke.
> 
> But it's not.
> 
> ...


She needs some lessons in signing on


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 21, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I thought this might be a joke.
> 
> But it's not.



Yeah there's a lot of that going round at the moment.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 21, 2021)

Cross-posted with someone else.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I thought this might be a joke.
> 
> But it's not.
> 
> ...


her shitty plan ripped top shreads here








						'He was a police officer': Met bashed for new ‘Safe Connection’ plan
					

A new initiative has been launched to reassure women after Sarah Everard's death. It hasn't gone down well.




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## Raheem (Oct 21, 2021)

I'm not sure this is completely useless. Couzens thought he could get away with it. If there had been a call to base, his contact with Sarah would have been logged and he wouldn't have committed the crime (because it would have been impossible for him not to get linked to the disappearance).

I guess what he might have done, though, is try different women until he found someone who didn't ask for a call to be made.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm not sure this is completely useless. Couzens thought he could get away with it. If there had been a call to base, his contact with Sarah would have been logged and he wouldn't have committed the crime (because it would have been impossible for him not to get linked to the disappearance).
> 
> I guess what he might have done, though, is try different women until he found someone who didn't ask for a call to be made.


or as has been said simply got a mate in a cop's uniform to vouch for him. anyway the people in the control room would have said yer man's a cop because er he was a cop


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> her shitty plan ripped top shreads here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Read the article. Some of the twitter comments make good points 

This Met leadership initiative is about sidelining the real issue. The person who raped and murdered Sarah Everard is a police officer. This is supposed to rebuild trust when it's not addressing the real problem. It's not about people pretending to be police officers. 

I'm not surprised Cressida Dick came up with this. 

Back when a Brazilian was killed in operation she bungled smears were put out that perhaps he was a visa overstayer. So his supposed shifty behaviour meant that he contributed to being mistaken for terrorist. 

Anything after the fact to deflect attention from the real issue here.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 21, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> The person who raped and murdered Sarah Everard is a police officer. This is supposed to rebuild trust when it's not addressing the real problem. It's not about people pretending to be police officers.



How can they still not get it?
Do they think if they keep pretending that people will forget?

Do women need to ask if the officer is known as "the rapist" back at the nick?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 21, 2021)

Going down like the proverbial cup of cold sick. Why they can't find a single actual human being to run this kind of shit past before going public with it I've no idea.

E2a: Or maybe it's supposed to crash and burn. Then Dick and the met can throw up their hands and say, 'we tried our best to change, but all they wanted to do was hurt our feelings'. This in turn becomes an excuse to further close ranks and to escalate the existing policy of being a fucking disgraceful shower of australopithecine brutes.


----------



## bimble (Oct 22, 2021)

Just get rid of these people, 'reflective practice' my arse. 








						Five police officers face hearings over messages about Sarah Everard case
					

Watchdog says allegations, if proven, have capacity to further undermine public confidence in policing




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## 5t3IIa (Oct 23, 2021)

Pigs are going to relentlessly pig:


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just get rid of these people, 'reflective practice' my arse.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Can't they see how this looks? Just reinforces the general public's view of the police as still having an 'us-and-them' canteen culture. They stagger from one PR disaster to the next


----------



## existentialist (Oct 23, 2021)

scalyboy said:


> Can't they see how this looks? Just reinforces the general public's view of the police as still having an 'us-and-them' canteen culture. They stagger from one PR disaster to the next


I think that the answer to your question is "No, they can't".


----------



## tim (Oct 23, 2021)

5t3IIa said:


> Pigs are going to relentlessly pig:
> 
> View attachment 293831


There is a genuine appeal on Twitter from West Yorkshire Police for a missing person of that name.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Oct 23, 2021)

tim said:


> There is a genuine appeal on Twitter from West Yorkshire Police for a missing person of that name.


They're being tone deaf at best.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 23, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> They're being tone deaf at best.


I don’t think it’s a real post


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm not sure this is completely useless. Couzens thought he could get away with it. If there had been a call to base, his contact with Sarah would have been logged and he wouldn't have committed the crime (because it would have been impossible for him not to get linked to the disappearance).
> 
> I guess what he might have done, though, is try different women until he found someone who didn't ask for a call to be made.



It's this idea that Couzens would have been thwarted if Sarah Everard had insisted he phone his station to confirm the arrest was legitimate. He didn't care about the rule that says, 'don't rape and murder people' so I doubt he'd have given two shits about a rule that says, 'phone a friend before you do it'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I think that the answer to your question is "No, they can't".



More like, 'there's no reason for them to care how it looks because they know their arses are covered no matter what'.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 23, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> I don’t think it’s a real post


I take it back. Just looked at their FB page and they’re apologising for it, claiming ‘unauthorised access’ was responsible. Chinny reckon
( the missing young woman has been found safe and well btw)


----------



## tim (Oct 23, 2021)

LeytonCatLady said:


> They're being tone deaf at best.


It's a fake, though.

Edited to add: Except, as OU has pointed out, it's not a fake.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 23, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's this idea that Couzens would have been thwarted if Sarah Everard had insisted he phone his station to confirm the arrest was legitimate. He didn't care about the rule that says, 'don't rape and murder people' so I doubt he'd have given two shits about a rule that says, 'phone a friend before you do it'.


But if it was a thing that most people knew that you had a right to get a lone cop to ring the station, the cop's refusal is likely to be enough of a red flag that the next Sarah E doesn't get in the car.

Like I said, it's possible that he would have just tried different women until he found one who didn't ask for a call, but I think the best you can hope for from a single measure is that it puts obstacles in the way of someone like Couzens. Stopping them altogether is going to require multiple measures, but that doesn't make the individual measures pointless.


----------



## xenon (Oct 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> But if it was a thing that most people knew that you had a right to get a lone cop to ring the station, the cop's refusal is likely to be enough of a red flag that the next Sarah E doesn't get in the car.
> 
> Like I said, it's possible that he would have just tried different women until he found one who didn't ask for a call, but I think the best you can hope for from a single measure is that it puts obstacles in the way of someone like Couzens. Stopping them altogether is going to require multiple measures, but that doesn't make the individual measures pointless.



This was proposed for plane clothes officers making arrests.
Was Couzins wearing a uniform? 
But anyway, there are no rapists or predatory cops in uniform of course, as anyone doing a cursery websearch can find out.

And officers who have the nickname the rapist couldn't possibly have colleagues that would just casually back them up over a video call. not because they themselves are necesarily mysognaists or in some horrendous pact with scum like Couzins. But group dynamics, possibly a junior colleague, not really thinking he is an actual rapist, it's an in joke. 

It's an unsurprising pig ignorant proposal.


----------



## little_legs (Oct 23, 2021)

The ‘rapist’_: Let me just facetime a mate in uniform and he'll tell you I'm legit_


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 23, 2021)

Cousins, under this rule, would simply have worn his uniform to “arrest” her.


----------



## Poot (Oct 23, 2021)

The only difference between an arrest and a kidnapping is the person doing it. So let's keep looking at the person doing it rather than trying to reassure the person being arrested/kidnapped.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 23, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Cousins, under this rule, would simply have worn his uniform to “arrest” her.


Couzens.

Earlier in the year the met had to change all their warrant cards because of the number of fakes in circulation. That was the time to be putting in place ways to confirm the identity of plain clothes cops. If SE had known of the withdrawal she might have refused to go with wc voluntarily. The met kept it quiet tho, only a couple of short stories in the press about it some months back. All this from the met is too little too late









						all met cops to get new warrant cards due to number of fakes in circulation
					

The current generation of warrant cards feature a photograph of the officer along with their name and rank, along with the force crest and a security hologram. The new versions are expected to include electronic chips that store data about the cardholder along with a number of other security...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 24, 2021)

That upgrade though, it's primarily for their benefit so access permissions can be loaded on to chip. How does a chip help prove to people on the street that the warrant card is legit and matches the person carrying it?

I take your point Pickman's model  that the change should have been more widely known. As usual it seems to have been kept rather quiet...


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

Another police officer convicted (he's a former officer now):









						Ex-police sergeant put on sex offenders register
					

Paul Bucknall, 52, sent indecent online messages to two undercover police officers posing as parents.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Note that the article refers to 'offences committed ata police station' so one can only assume he was committing some of the offences at work.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 25, 2021)

from that article :

He was ordered to do 225 hours of unpaid work and put under supervision, as well as being placed on the sex offenders register for two years.

It's a fucking bullshit sentence.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 25, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> It's a fucking bullshit sentence.



Totally, the details were way more sickening than I would ever have expected.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> from that article :
> 
> He was ordered to do 225 hours of unpaid work and put under supervision, as well as being placed on the sex offenders register for two years.
> 
> It's a fucking bullshit sentence.


Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the sentence, but I don't know enough about the sentencing guidelines for that type of offence.

I did note the lawyer's 'my client has lost everything' spiel at the end of the article and thought the blatant attenmpt to gain sympathy was ill-judged at best.


----------



## spanglechick (Oct 25, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, I wasn't thrilled with the sentence, but I don't know enough about the sentencing guidelines for that type of offence.
> 
> I did note the lawyer's 'my client has lost everything' spiel at the end of the article and thought the blatant attenmpt to gain sympathy was ill-judged at best.


That bit just made me feel sick on behalf of his children.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> That bit just made me feel sick on behalf of his children.


I know, it's very disturbing.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 25, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> from that article :
> 
> He was ordered to do 225 hours of unpaid work and put under supervision, as well as being placed on the sex offenders register for two years.
> 
> It's a fucking bullshit sentence.


TWO YEARS???? That's astonishingly short. Fuck.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

existentialist said:


> TWO YEARS???? That's astonishingly short. Fuck.


Offences committed in a police station, a place where people ostensibly go to be protected from predators, not interact with them.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2021)

Can I speak to someone about rreporting a crime, please, officer?
The rapist will be back off his tea break soon, don't worry luv it's just a nickname us lads call him. Or there's pedo Dave, also a nickname nothing to be concerned about.
Anybody not a sex pest?
Well there's me. Can I get your number please, for case updates not for actual dates you understand?

That's what it's like, isn't it?


----------



## dessiato (Oct 26, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Can I speak to someone about rreporting a crime, please, officer?
> The rapist will be back off his tea break soon, don't worry luv it's just a nickname us lads call him. Or there's pedo Dave, also a nickname nothing to be concerned about.
> Anybody not a sex pest?
> Well there's me. Can I get your number please, for case updates not for actual dates you understand?
> ...


Years ago I was overtly threatened by a police inspector, in front of a witness. The next day I went to report it. I made a statement to another inspector who, afterwards, said that he was a mate of the one about whom I was complaining, and he'd have a chat with him. The next day I got notification, from the solicitor of the one I was complaining about, that if I repeated my accusations I'd be arrested and charged. I'm not sure what with.

Who polices the police? No-one I think.


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 26, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Who polices the police? No-one I think.


This is, of course another one of the herd of elephants in the room.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2021)

Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman: Met Police apologise to family of murdered sisters
					

A missing persons log was incorrectly closed by an inspector and inquiries were not progressed.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




No racial bias, apparently. Although not mentioned, I suspect the fact that they were women also played a part.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> Bibaa Henry and Nicole Smallman: Met Police apologise to family of murdered sisters
> 
> 
> A missing persons log was incorrectly closed by an inspector and inquiries were not progressed.
> ...


class, race, misogyny (in no particular order) - all mentioned on the toady programme this morning


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> class, race, misogyny (in no particular order) - all mentioned on the toady programme this morning


No misconduct charges for anyone involved, although it's admitted their performance that shift was inadequate.

Cressida wants to apologise in person, somemonths after the event. She still doesn't appear to understand the issues.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Years ago I was overtly threatened by a police inspector, in front of a witness. The next day I went to report it. I made a statement to another inspector who, afterwards, said that he was a mate of the one about whom I was complaining, and he'd have a chat with him. The next day I got notification, from the solicitor of the one I was complaining about, that if I repeated my accusations I'd be arrested and charged. I'm not sure what with.
> 
> Who polices the police? No-one I think.


it's very hard to get anywhere with a complaint against the police, it took me months to get devon and cornwall police to admit sending a cop van to a police federation demonstration in london, that it wasn't an appropriate use of their resources and to get something put on the disciplinary record of a detective chief superintendent. and that was cut and dried with photos of the van, and published interviews and articles from the media.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> No misconduct charges for anyone involved, although it's admitted their performance that shift was inadequate.
> 
> Cressida wants to apologise in person, somemonths after the event. She still doesn't appear to understand the issues.


there can be few people one would like less to meet than cressida dick


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there can be few people one would like less to meet than cressida dick


To be fair, she did offer 'her or another senior officer'. I just don't think I would believe an apology from someone who oversaw an operation where a person of colour was killed, if I were also a person of colour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> To be fair, she did offer 'her or another senior officer'. I just don't think I would believe an apology from someone who oversaw an operation where a person of colour was killed, if I were also a person of colour.


sorry is the easiest word for the met. as long as they don't have to change their behaviour.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> sorry is the easiest word for the met. as long as they don't have to change their behaviour.


It's just words, like you say, change the behaviour.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2021)

Dp


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2021)

So I see couzens is appealing his whole life tariff









						Wayne Couzens lodges appeal against whole-life sentence
					

Police officer was handed rare jail tariff for the kidnap, rape and murder of Sarah Everard




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Oct 27, 2021)

Hope he knows that appealing can result in an increased sentence.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2021)

what a cunt eh, hope they increase it

eta: what Raheem said


----------



## Sue (Oct 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Hope he knows that appealing can result in an increased sentence.


Erm....


----------



## RainbowTown (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So I see couzens is appealing his whole life tariff
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This worthless turd should just accept the fact that the rest of his miserable, useless life is just going to rot away in obscurity behind bars. And no amount of 'appealing' is going to change that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


> This worthless turd should just accept the fact that the rest of his miserable, useless life is just going to rot away in obscurity behind bars. And no amount of 'appealing' is going to change that.


Yeh his case does seem without merit, it's not like there's any obvious fuck up in the judge's sentencing remarks


----------



## Raheem (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh his case does seem without merit, it's not like there's any obvious fuck up in the judge's sentencing remarks


And yet his chances of a Freemason judge are statistically good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And yet his chances of a Freemason judge are statistically good.


Perhaps he sent out the mason in distress sign only for the judge not to be on the square


----------



## scalyboy (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps he sent out the mason in distress sign only for the judge not to be on the square


"Dash it all, what rotten luck - what are the chances?"


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So I see couzens is appealing his whole life tariff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The article does point out this was an expected move, a legal tactic. He's a desparate man, probably in isolation due to being a former police officer and he knows his sentence can't really be increased in any meaningful way.

That said...

His crime was disturbing and a abuse of his position. Christ he killed her using his police uniform belt, for fuck's sake. He does not deserve to be on any sentence other than a whole life tariff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> The article does point out this was an expected move, a legal tactic. He's a desparate man, probably in isolation due to being a former police officer and he knows his sentence can't really be increased in any meaningful way.


i'm sure there are a lot of people inside who would be very happy to shorten his sentence.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 27, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


> This worthless turd should just accept the fact that the rest of his miserable, useless life is just going to rot away in obscurity behind bars. And no amount of 'appealing' is going to change that.


I think that's what the request for permission to appeal is all about. The cunt wants to maintain some kind of significance, so anything that makes a change from rotting away in obscurity will be attractive to him. I hope permission is denied.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So I see couzens is appealing his whole life tariff
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, it was an expected legal tactic.

But he abused his position as a policy officer and for fucks sake he killed her with his policr uniform belt. He absolutely and in no uncertain terms deserves to spend the rest of his life in prison, and under isolation conditions at that.


----------



## Athos (Oct 27, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Hope he knows that appealing can result in an increased sentence.


I don't think it could. He's having a go, as he's got nothing to lose.  And no shame.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 27, 2021)

Metropolitan Police officer appears in court on rape charge
					

Serving police constable Adam Zaman, 28, is remanded into custody after appearing in court.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2021)

There's also this, which I thought was interesting:









						Camilla warns of culture normalising sexual violence
					

The Duchess of Cornwall calls for change of culture to stop violence and sexual harassment against women.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Interesting due to the person saying it.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Oct 27, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> There's also this, which I thought was interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 I didn't know that Carrie Symonds had given evidence at John Worboys' trial.
Link from that article BBC NEWS | UK | Woman's lift with sex attacker Worboys


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> I didn't know that Carrie Symonds had given evidence at John Worboys' trial.
> Link from that article BBC NEWS | UK | Woman's lift with sex attacker Worboys


Fucks sake, living with that uncertainty must be horrendous.


----------



## 8ball (Oct 27, 2021)

equationgirl said:


> There's also this, which I thought was interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I also saw from another source that there are about 600 homicides per year in the UK.  Haven’t seen the full breakdown, though.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 27, 2021)

8ball said:


> I also saw from another source that there are about 600 homicides per year in the UK.  Haven’t seen the full breakdown, though.


That's just England and Wales figures, not the whole of the UK.


----------



## Sue (Oct 29, 2021)

There seem to be quite a few rotten apples...  😡 









						Met Police officer charged with child sex offences
					

Francois Olwage allegedly arranged to meet a girl he believed to be 13 years old, police say.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						Met Police officer denies misconduct over interactions with girls
					

PC Adnan Arib is accused of arranging to meet two girls he knew as a result of his police work.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## existentialist (Oct 29, 2021)

Sue said:


> There seem to be quite a few rotten apples...  😡
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's because the people (police) who trot out the old "rotten apples" thing forget one thing...the apples get rotten in the barrel. So, instead of focusing on apples, they'd be a lot better looking at the culture in that barrel that allows so many of the apples to go rotten.

And I suspect that a "culture of impunity" has a lot to do with that. If they got rid of that, the rotten apples would quickly disappear.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Nov 8, 2021)

Rapist impersonated police officer and carried out sex attacks on two women
					

A RAPIST who carried out sex attacks while pretending to be a police officer has been sentenced to 14 years in jail.




					www.theargus.co.uk


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2021)

Indeliblelink said:


> Rapist impersonated police officer and carried out sex attacks on two women
> 
> 
> A RAPIST who carried out sex attacks while pretending to be a police officer has been sentenced to 14 years in jail.
> ...


I would say this will play into the hands of those saying police impersonators are not a big issue in the UK, completely missing the point that Cozens was a serving police officer who abused his position. 

Two appalling but very separate crimes.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2022)

Latest on the enquiry:









						Sarah Everard: First phase of independent inquiry to conclude this year
					

The first phase of the independent inquiry into Sarah Everard's murder will conclude this year.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## bimble (Jan 10, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> I would say this will play into the hands of those saying police impersonators are not a big issue in the UK, completely missing the point that Cozens was a serving police officer who abused his position.
> 
> Two appalling but very separate crimes.


Yes.
Meanwhile .








						Metropolitan police officer faces six further charges of rape
					

PC David Carrick to appear at Westminster magistrates court as new charges bring total to 29 alleged offences against eight women




					www.theguardian.com
				












						David Carrick: Metropolitan Police officer charged with 29 offences against eight women, including rape and sexual assault
					

PC David Carrick, 47, who is based within the Met's Parliamentary and Diplomatic Protection Command, was first charged with a single count of rape in October last year.




					news.sky.com


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2022)

bimble said:


> Yes.
> Meanwhile .
> 
> 
> ...


Are these on the 'filth by name' thread? They really should be.


----------



## bimble (Jan 10, 2022)

It’s the first I’ve heard of it. A serial (alleged) rapist over a decade of offending and working in the met the whole time. Wonder what his nickname is.


----------



## bluescreen (Jan 10, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Are these on the 'filth by name' thread? They really should be.


Yes. I posted it on there over an hour ago.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2022)

bluescreen said:


> Yes. I posted it on there over an hour ago.


Thank you. That thread is a damning yet useful compendium.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Latest on the enquiry:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its not going to be a Statutory enquiry. So it's toothless. I'm sure Met will be pleased.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Jan 11, 2022)

Belfield is protecting him on the beast's wing.









						Levi Bellfield ‘feels sorry for Wayne Couzens and protects him in jail’
					

Wayne Couzens has been getting protection from Levi Bellfield in jail because he feels sorry for him, according to reports.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




I can't imagine that makes his mind more at ease.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 12, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Belfield is protecting him on the beast's wing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The only news story I want to hear about Couzens - other than his trial for further offences - is an extremely brief notice upon the occasion of his (preferably natural) death in prison.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 12, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Belfield is protecting him on the beast's wing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Figures. All misogynist scumbags together...


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jan 12, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The only news story I want to hear about Couzens - other than his trial for further offences - is an extremely brief notice upon the occasion of his (preferably natural) death in prison.


Maybe the Rona will get him, like it did Sutcliffe.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2022)

Streatham MP Bell Ribeiro-Addy doing an excellent job again Streatham MP calls for a “comprehensive” inquiry into the murder of Sarah Everard


----------



## 8ball (Jan 14, 2022)

existentialist said:


> The only news story I want to hear about Couzens - other than his trial for further offences - is an extremely brief notice upon the occasion of his (preferably natural) death in prison.



I’d be happy for them to not bother mentioning it tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 3, 2022)

a year ago today - rip


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 6, 2022)

I cannot believe it's a year already.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 11, 2022)

Met fucked up - OFFICIAL









						Met police breached rights of organisers of Sarah Everard vigil, court rules
					

Reclaim These Streets welcomes judges’ decision as ‘a victory for women’ and calls for Met reform




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

Just read Guardian piece. By local  Labour Cllr who was a main organiser of Reclaim the Streets.

When Met refused to let them do it Reclaim the Streets cancelled it. Vigil/ protest happened spontaneously anyway. With Sisters Uncut taking a leading role.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

Two Guardian articles. This one by Cllr Anna Birley,









						The police banned our vigil for Sarah Everard and that was illegal – how can women trust them? | Anna Birley
					

A court found the Met was wrong to block our attempt to stage a vigil for Sarah Everard. It may appeal, but it would be better advised to start rebuilding trust, says Reclaim These Streets founder Anna Birley




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

The Met response to the Judgement that they had acted unlawfully is below. From the Guardian article.

Hardly suggests the Met is listening or willing to change. To rebuild "trust".

It comes across to me as Met resentment that judiciary didn't back them up.



> Met assistant commissioner Louisa Rolfe said: “The Met is mindful that this judgment has potential implications in other circumstances for how a proportionality assessment is to be carried out when considering enforcement action. This may apply beyond policing the pandemic. Even in the context of the regulations that kept us safe during the pandemic, this may have important consequences.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

Sisters Uncut who went ahead with the vigil when Reclaim the Streets cancelled it have protest this Saturday.









						Sisters Uncut: ‘Police are the perpetrators’: Sisters Uncut set to take action one year on from Clapham Common vigil
					

Feminist action group that launched Kill the Bill movement mark one year since Clapham Common vigil, where women were brutalised by police officers  Hundreds expected to gather at New Scotland Yard to withdraw consent from British policing Sisters Uncut say when policing bill passes, “more...




					www.sistersuncut.org
				




At 5pm on Saturday 12 March, feminist activist group Sisters Uncut will host a mass direct action at New Scotland Yard for the public to withdraw their consent from British policing.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

Sisters Uncut want police defunded. 



> Given the repeated reports of misogyny embedded in the institution, the group states that there is no way for women to consent to police power. Sisters Uncut maintain that more police powers will lead to more police violence and a society without police would be much safer.
> 
> Sisters Uncut advocate for police budgets to be cut, and funding for domestic and sexual abuse services reinstated.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

I actually think "defunding" the police as it's called is idea that should be taken seriously. Came out of US BLM but still applicable here


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

The full Met response to the Judgement.

Looks like they are seriously thinking of appealing. Throughout this the Met have shown themselves to be not listening to women or being willing to change.










						Statement following the issuing of a judgment by the High Court
					

The following is a statement on behalf of the Metropolitan Police following the judgment issued by the High Court.




					news.met.police.uk


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 11, 2022)

From the Met statement.

They see judgement as restricting there ability to shut down protest. That the judgement goes beyond pandemic restrictions being the issue. That bit I don't understand. Would have thought that this judgement was specific to a public event whilst specific restrictions were in place.



> "The Met unreservedly endorses the principle that fundamental freedoms, such as those exercised by the claimants in this case, may only be restricted where it is necessary and proportionate for a lawful purpose. Consideration of an appeal is in no way indicative that the Met do not consider such protections to be of the utmost importance. It is, however, incumbent on the Met to ensure that this judgment does not unduly inhibit its ability, and that of police forces across the country, to effectively balance competing rights in a way that is operationally deliverable.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> From the Met statement.
> 
> They see judgement as restricting there ability to shut down protest. That the judgement goes beyond pandemic restrictions being the issue. That bit I don't understand. Would have thought that this judgement was specific to a public event whilst specific restrictions were in place.


They are utter scum


----------



## ddraig (Mar 11, 2022)

"operationally deliverable" jfc
Typical bullshit


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> From the Met statement.
> 
> They see judgement as restricting there ability to shut down protest. That the judgement goes beyond pandemic restrictions being the issue. That bit I don't understand. Would have thought that this judgement was specific to a public event whilst specific restrictions were in place.


I read it as "if we can't repress women, we won't be able to shut down the crazy anti-vaxxers either"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as "if we can't repress women, we won't be able to shut down the crazy anti-vaxxers either"


If we can't repress women what's the point of being a cop I think you'll find


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as "if we can't repress women, we won't be able to shut down the crazy anti-vaxxers either"



But they've always been happy to let the antivaxxers do whatever stupid shit they like.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> But they've always been happy to let the antivaxxers do whatever stupid shit they like.


Yes that did also cross my mind as I was typing it.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 11, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I read it as "if we can't repress women, we won't be able to shut down the crazy anti-vaxxers either"


I wonder how that sounds in Russian :hmm


----------



## Torpid Scorpion (Mar 11, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> I actually think "defunding" the police as it's called is idea that should be taken seriously. Came out of US BLM but still applicable here


This is a good read on the subject:









						“Policing Is Fundamentally a Tool of Social Control to Facilitate Our Exploitation”
					

The brutality we have repeatedly seen meted out by American police all over the country isn’t a bug of our political-economic system — it’s a feature.




					jacobinmag.com
				




I think the name is counterproductive and mobilises votes for the right wing. This isn't an opinion I formed a-priori; it was drummed into me by progressive local politicians in the usa (state and county level) I work with. 

Im deeply afraid with Putin’s outrage we are sailing into another era of mass acquiescence to/worship of the police as we had after 9/11 and 7/7


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

Totally agree it needs a different name. I really liked AOC's take on it:


----------



## two sheds (Mar 11, 2022)

I do wonder too whether "Black Lives Matter" should have been "Black Lives Matter Too"


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2022)

Torpid Scorpion said:


> This is a good read on the subject:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I read Vitales book last year. Its refers to US not here. Its well worth a read.

The book here that I've read is Black Resistance to British Policing by Adam Elliott Cooper. Which covers more on class ,race and policing. As well as relationship to resistance against Imperialism with policing. He looks at role of women in campaigning against police mistreatment/ violence. He doesn't put the White Supremacy line. Rather looks at Race and Class. Which I prefer. Its a very good book. That covers a lot.

Sisters Uncut would be on the Defund/ Abolition side and Reclaim the Streets the reform policing and the law side.

Defunding the police In my understanding is not necessarily getting rid of them altogether. It can be that. But there is I think a range of opinions.

I take Defund to move resources to deal with social problems but not get rid of police entirely and the Abolitionists who want police removed entirely. It's totally unreformable.

The argument would be that the police response to women organising a Vigil was not out of the ordinary. This is the police functioning as they should. As agents of social control. Can see that in Met response to the judgement.


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2022)

Must say the reporting on Friday in the Guardian erases the involvement of Sisters Uncut. I've kind of thought recently the Guardian is leaving out people with less than centre views.

Though it says something when my local on the right of the party Cllrs find the Met treats them with the contempt it normally reserves for people with "extreme" views.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 12, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Must say the reporting on Friday in the Guardian erases the involvement of Sisters Uncut. I've kind of thought recently the Guardian is leaving out people with less than centre views.
> 
> Though it says something when my local on the right of the party Cllrs find the Met treats them with the contempt it normally reserves for people with "extreme" views.


The people on the right of the party are extremists


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 12, 2022)

Reclaim These Streets' girl boss feminism will never set us free
					

Female representation in the police force is not the hill to die on.




					gal-dem.com
				




This is a bit harsh imo. If it's right and RTS did refuse requests from Sisters Uncut I'm not surprised. Labour right Cllrs are good at excluding others who aren't politically reliable by simply ignoring them.

It's a bit harsh as I think Cllr Birley and others have put a lot of work into this. And have persisted in the case.

I also think what they are asking of change in policing isn't wrong. It's that is it going to happen?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Mar 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I do wonder too whether "Black Lives Matter" should have been "Black Lives Matter Too"



Sounds like a disappointing sequel.

I think the very fact that the phrase 'black lives matter' riles so many people up is evidence that we must all keep using it.


----------



## Torpid Scorpion (Mar 12, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> The book here that I've read is Black Resistance to British Policing by Adam Elliott Cooper.


thanks, will check that out.


----------



## ddraig (Mar 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I do wonder too whether "Black Lives Matter" should have been "Black Lives Matter Too"


the "too" is implied and people need to get their heads around that to understand why it really really matters


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

yes - I was thinking that it makes it clearer but it is indeed clear enough to anyone who's not a proper racist.


----------



## bmd (Mar 12, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> The Met response to the Judgement that they had acted unlawfully is below. From the Guardian article.
> 
> Hardly suggests the Met is listening or willing to change. To rebuild "trust".
> 
> It comes across to me as Met resentment that judiciary didn't back them up.


What gets me about the police response to any kind of critique of their working practices is that it feels like they believe they cannot acknowledge that criticism because it would undermine the public's view of them.


----------



## bmd (Mar 12, 2022)

two sheds said:


> I do wonder too whether "Black Lives Matter" should have been "Black Lives Matter Too"



I get what you're saying. However, I have only ever found that 'misunderstanding' happens when it's someone who raises the issue to suit their agenda. Like blokes who are against women's rights. I was talking about bodily autonomy in a relationship the other day and a bloke said that if women want to refuse to have sex then they should be prepared for a man to leave the relationship. He's probably waffled on about the Too thing.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 12, 2022)

Yep can't argue with any of that on reflection


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2022)

Did find Guardian article on the Sisters Uncut demo yesterday. After bit of googling. 

And it's a good article,









						Feminist protesters set off 1,000 rape alarms outside London police station
					

Demonstration marked one-year anniversary of vigil for Sarah Everard, which was broken up by police




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 13, 2022)

The journalist took some video of demo


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## Gramsci (Mar 16, 2022)

We all knew the Met was wrong to ban our vigil for Sarah Everard
					

I don’t think I can fully explain how people feel about the verdict that Reclaim These Streets (RTS) received on Friday. The Met’s decision to ban the vigil we had planned to mark the murder of Sarah Everard was found to be “flawed at every single step of the process”. It comes as no surprise to...




					www.standard.co.uk
				




Article by Patsy Stevenson who attended the Sisters Uncut demo last weekend. She was the woman the police were photographed arresting at the Clapham Vigil.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2022)

Sarah Everard killer Wayne Couzens charged with four counts of indecent exposure


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## Raheem (Mar 18, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Sarah Everard killer Wayne Couzens charged with four counts of indecent exposure


It's great that they're nipping his behaviour in the bud.


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## LeytonCatLady (Mar 18, 2022)

Raheem said:


> It's great that they're nipping his behaviour in the bud.


Yep. Horses and stable doors spring to mind.


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## Sue (Mar 18, 2022)

You'd think the Met would realise at some point that they should stop digging but no. Ffs. 😡









						Sarah Everard vigil: Met Police appeal against High Court ruling
					

Scotland Yard says the decision to appeal "is important for policing and the public".



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## existentialist (Apr 13, 2022)

So, he wants a jury trial for his indecent exposure case. I (don't really) wonder what his motive for that might be 









						Wayne Couzens requests trial by jury on indecent exposure charges
					

Sarah Everard’s killer accused of the flashing incidents in Swanley, Kent, in 2021




					www.theguardian.com


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## BCBlues (Apr 13, 2022)

existentialist said:


> So, he wants a jury trial for his indecent exposure case. I (don't really) wonder what his motive for that might be
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought he was dead the c*nt


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 13, 2022)

He's 'protected' in prison by Levi Bellfield; of all the people on earth a cop would want to be protected by.


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## keybored (Apr 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He's 'protected' in prison by Levi Bellfield; of all the people on earth a cop would want to be protected by.


"an unnamed source told The Sun..."


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## LeytonCatLady (Apr 13, 2022)

Magnus McGinty said:


> He's 'protected' in prison by Levi Bellfield; of all the people on earth a cop would want to be protected by.


Considering how hated he must be in there, I daresay he's not in the position to be fussy about where he gets support...

Also, assuming the court sketch was accurate, he is looking very thin and wizened. Wonder why he lost his appetite. Prison food not great, or just angst-ridden guilt eating him up?


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 13, 2022)

keybored said:


> "an unnamed source told The Sun..."


Fair dos. But it's not beyond the bounds of credibility that two men who committed the worst atrocities towards women find some common ground with each other if their paths cross inside.


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## existentialist (Apr 13, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Considering how hated he must be in there, I daresay he's not in the position to be fussy about where he gets support...
> 
> Also, assuming the court sketch was accurate, he is looking very thin and wizened. Wonder why he lost his appetite. Prison food not great, or just angst-ridden guilt eating him up?


Prison food, then


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## Gramsci (Apr 13, 2022)

Sue said:


> You'd think the Met would realise at some point that they should stop digging but no. Ffs. 😡
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Appeal failed:









						Sarah Everard: Met Police bid to overturn vigil ruling rejected
					

Two High Court judges dismissed part of the force's appeal over a previous ruling as "hopeless".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> The judges described some of the Met's proposed grounds of appeal as "hopeless attempts to challenge reasoned factual conclusions", while others involved "a misreading of one passage of the judgment, ignoring the overall context".



Now that Cressida Dick has gone it is to be seen if the Met changes its culture. Away from seeing any "attack" on its operational independence as undermining how this country works.

Certainly Dicks resignation letter showed no contrition. But took a swipe at the Mayor. Using the argument that politics is in danger of interfering with how the non political Met get on with their job. Like policing is non political. Which it isnt. 

The last thing members of the establishment like Cressida Dick want is for people to protest. And then use the law to bring people who run things to account.


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## Gramsci (Apr 13, 2022)

What I find most disturbing about all of this is how establishment figures like Cressida Dick and the high ups in Met think they are hard done by "activists" , part of the legal profession, parts of the judiciary and "politicians". Even if they are centrist like Khan.

Hardly far lefty sections of society. 

Does make the defund the Police argument have more credence imo.


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## Gramsci (Apr 14, 2022)

Bindmans the legal firm who took this on view:






						#ReclaimTheseStreets: Metropolitan Police refused permission to appeal by the High Court | Bindmans LLP
					

The High Court has today refused the application of the Metropolitan Police for permission to appeal last month’s ruling in favour of Reclaim These Streets. In a thorough analysis, the court has held that none of their grounds of appeal has a reasonable prospect of success, and there is no other...




					www.bindmans.com
				




This make me think that the Met just do not want to listen. Given that going to court is one way in a democratic society that differences of opinion can to some extent be resolved the below shows how the Met is simply not interested in anything except its God given right to operational "independence". It didn't read the previous judgement and take it on board in any way.



> On the second point, the court held that the Defendant’s arguments are for the most part ‘hopeless attempts to challenge reasoned factual conclusions’, and ‘lack coherence and fail to address the court’s reasoning as a whole’.


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## Gromit (Apr 14, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Bindmans the legal firm who took this on view:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’ll do the lessons learnt, take the judgement on board statements at some stage with a straight face after claiming it was wrong and they were right.


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## LeytonCatLady (Apr 30, 2022)

Oh FFS. When will the Met get it through their head that they were in the wrong?



			Metropolitan Police seeking second appeal against High Court ruling over Sarah Everard vigil


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## teqniq (Apr 30, 2022)

Fuck me. What a bunch of self-regarding arseholes.


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## Gramsci (Apr 30, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Oh FFS. When will the Met get it through their head that they were in the wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> Metropolitan Police seeking second appeal against High Court ruling over Sarah Everard vigil



See the video by the Assistant Commissioner of Met is using the few rotten apples in the barrel argument.

Rather than accept the court judgement Met are implying now the behaviour of officers at event was due to some police joining for the wrong reasons.

Top brass of Met just aren't going to take any criticism onboard of how they make decisions. Which was the point of the legal case.


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## Chilli.s (Apr 30, 2022)

As everybody knows management are never wrong, it's always someone else's fault


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## Pickman's model (Apr 30, 2022)

Chilli.s said:


> As everybody knows management are never wrong, it's always someone else's fault


the people who installed management above the people who know what they're doing


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## teqniq (Jun 1, 2022)

Met told to fuck off Again. What really pisses me off along with their arrogance is that they are wasting public money on this:









						Sarah Everard vigil: Met Police refused appeal over High Court ruling
					

The Met Police cannot appeal against a ruling that it breached the rights of vigil organisers.



					www.bbc.com


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## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Met told to fuck off Again. What really pisses me off along with their arrogance is that they are wasting public money on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not too much of it. What really pisses me off is they're told in no uncertain terms their case is crap and they carry on regardless, it's not to me a question of money public or otherwise but the notion that one more roll of the dice will see their view accepted. Tbh if it's a waste of public money that's a concern then all they need do is stop breaking the law in their dealings with the public and lo and behold people would stop suing them and receiving compo


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## urbanspaceman (Jun 1, 2022)

Sarah Everard vigil: Met Police charges six attendees
					

Six people are due before magistrates accused of breaching Covid restrictions in March 2021.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Astonishingly, the Met is prosecuting four people over Covid rule violations at the Sarah Everard vigil. This has some interesting political ramifications, as people will compare the treatment of these four people who met in the open air to protest the rape and murder of a woman _by a police officer,_ with the kid gloves treatment afforded Boris as he did his"_duty_", attending Downing Street parties and officials' farewell events to "_thank them for their service_". 

The optics will be terrible.


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## Sue (Jun 1, 2022)

urbanspaceman said:


> Sarah Everard vigil: Met Police charges six attendees
> 
> 
> Six people are due before magistrates accused of breaching Covid restrictions in March 2021.
> ...





Sue said:


> You'd think the Met would realise at some point that they should stop digging but no. Ffs. 😡
> 
> 
> 
> ...


😡


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## BusLanes (Jun 1, 2022)

Really takes the piss


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## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2022)

urbanspaceman said:


> Sarah Everard vigil: Met Police charges six attendees
> 
> 
> Six people are due before magistrates accused of breaching Covid restrictions in March 2021.
> ...


The police know how to keep it classy


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## Gramsci (Jun 2, 2022)

teqniq said:


> Met told to fuck off Again. What really pisses me off along with their arrogance is that they are wasting public money on this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its vindictiveness.

Their appeal was rejected. So next day they decide to take out their resentment on a few of the protestors.

The petty nastiness of State bureaucracy isn't to be underestimated.



> It comes a day after the Met Police was refused permission for a second time to appeal against a High Court ruling that said the force breached the rights of the organisers of the official vigil when it told them they faced £10,000 fines and prosecution if it went ahead.


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## 8ball (Jun 2, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> Its vindictiveness.
> 
> Their appeal was rejected. So next day they decide to take out their resentment on a few of the protestors.
> 
> The petty nastiness of State bureaucracy isn't to be underestimated.



I’m a contrarian fucker, but there’s no more charitable explanation that I can think of.

Bastards.


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## teqniq (Jun 9, 2022)

The Met get their pound of flesh. Arseholes   











						Sarah Everard vigil attendees convicted and fined after Met Police prosecution
					

Three people have been convicted by a magistrate of breaking the Covid regulations by attending the event, each receiving a fine of £220 plus £134 in court costs and fees




					www.standard.co.uk


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## LeytonCatLady (Jun 9, 2022)




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## story (Jun 9, 2022)

teqniq said:


> The Met get their pound of flesh. Arseholes
> 
> 
> 
> ...




What would happen if everyone who attended the vigil were to turn themselves into their local police station, all on the same prearranged day. Would they also be arrested charged and fined?


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## 8ball (Jun 9, 2022)

story said:


> What would happen if everyone who attended the vigil were to turn themselves into their local police station, all on the same prearranged day. Would they also be arrested charged and fined?



Nah, it would scare the cops so they'd get beaten up first.


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## Gramsci (Jun 9, 2022)

It appears from the "evidence" one cop gave in court that the police moved as  the Vigil  turned into , in cops eyes, a " anti police" protest. People were saying unkind things about the cops.

This is what really gets the Met. When their God given place in society starts to be questioned due to the way they behave.

On no accounts is this to be allowed.

Kind of makes sense to me now why they waded in. Even if I don't agree with it.



Really good Twitter this. Lot of detail on the actual court details.


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## BusLanes (Jun 9, 2022)

He does good work on the so called Single Justice Procedure and Covid fines


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## LeytonCatLady (Jun 9, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> It appears from the "evidence" one cop gave in court that the police moved as  the Vigil  turned into , in cops eyes, a " anti police" protest. People were saying unkind things about the cops.
> 
> This is what really gets the Met. When their God given place in society starts to be questioned due to the way they behave.
> 
> ...



I've had far worse than that said to me in my various call centre jobs and I don't expect anyone to be arrested for that! What's the betting that the cops who took offence are probably the same types who sneer at "snowflakes" and their "hurt feelings" and probably dismiss complaints from members of the public about harassment all the time because "it's just words".


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## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> I've had far worse than that said to me in my various call centre jobs. I don't expect anyone to be arrested for that! What's the betting that the cops who took offence are probably the same types who sneer at "snowflakes" and their "hurt feelings" and probably dismiss complaints from members of the public about harassment all the time because "it's just words".


yeh when i worked in market research i was called all sorts of things, and i was just doing customer satisfaction surveys, where we knew they had a certain internet provider! but it was all water off a duck's back because i knew they were mad at the people who offered them a service that wasn't working, i quite enjoyed those calls. if you can't take a few insults from people you don't know you shouldn't be working as a cop


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## LeytonCatLady (Jun 9, 2022)

teqniq said:


> The Met get their pound of flesh. Arseholes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So they got fined more than Boris Johnson. How's that fair?


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## Athos (Jun 9, 2022)

It looks like the three were convicted by a magistrate in their absence, and in the absence of any plea.  It will be interesting to see what happens in the case of the fourth defendant, who has pleaded not guilty.  In particular, becuase the prosecution would have to prove that they were acting without reasonable excuse.  Whether or not exercising their rights of free speech and assembly amount to a such an excuse will be a tricky one for the court - those article 10 and 11 rights are qualified i.e. they can be breached if necessary for public safety.


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## sheothebudworths (Aug 13, 2022)

Sarah Everard: Met forced to halt ‘absurd’ convictions over vigil
					

CPS decision to stop criminalisation of women under fast-track justice procedure is further humiliation for UK’s biggest police force




					www.theguardian.com


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## teqniq (Aug 13, 2022)

Hooray! This should never have happened in the first place!


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## BusLanes (Aug 13, 2022)

So mad to believe that it's taken this long


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 13, 2022)

The new commissioner Mark Rowley. Prosecuting these people was his first big thing. Now his mates at the CPS brand it absurd.

Meet the new boss, etc.


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## LeytonCatLady (Aug 19, 2022)

Wayne Couzens charged with two further counts of indecent exposure


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 2, 2022)

LeytonCatLady said:


> Wayne Couzens charged with two further counts of indecent exposure












						Wayne Couzens accused of more indecent exposures
					

Wayne Couzens offers no indication of a plea to exposing himself in two Kent towns.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




What's the fucking point? How much is this costing? Just let the cunt rot.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 2, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wayne Couzens accused of more indecent exposures
> 
> 
> Wayne Couzens offers no indication of a plea to exposing himself in two Kent towns.
> ...


the victims deserve their own justice, not simply to piggy-back on the sentence for the murder of sarah everard


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## existentialist (Sep 2, 2022)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Wayne Couzens accused of more indecent exposures
> 
> 
> Wayne Couzens offers no indication of a plea to exposing himself in two Kent towns.
> ...


I'm less bothered about the costs than the attention this cunt gets as a result, but Pickman's Model is right - it is only reasonable that the other victims of his offences don't have their experience overshadowed by the worst offence he committed. But, other than further appearances in court, I absolutely think that people like this should be condemned to total obscurity, until they die.


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## kittyP (Sep 2, 2022)

Maybe it's important to point out/mark/recognise the failures of the system that allowed him to get away with abusive behaviour for so long, some of which the police knew about (?), where he built up towards kidnap and murder. 
Plus as said justice to all the victims


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## existentialist (Sep 2, 2022)

kittyP said:


> Maybe it's important to point out/mark/recognise the failures of the system that allowed him to get away with abusive behaviour for so long, some of which the police knew about (?), where he built up towards kidnap and murder.
> Plus as said justice to all the victims


Yeah. It suits them (the system) very nicely if all of the criticism was focused on the perpetrator alone, and his enablers walked away without having to bear any of the responsibility.


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## Gramsci (Sep 2, 2022)

Cressida Dick: Sadiq Khan intimidated Met chief into quitting- report
					

The mayor of London Sadiq Khan has criticised the review, describing it as "clearly biased".



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




On this the head of Met under whose watched this all happened as well as being responsible for the policing of the vigil is now whining that horrid Khan didn't treat her fairly.

Kind of what I'd expect from a top Cop.

But there you go. Her lack of awareness that her actions might have led to her going is typical police behavior.

This is the person who ordered an innocent Brazilian be shot. Yet career went onwards and upwards. The Met is under special measures. But oh no its Khan to blame.

Imo as a Londoner it was one of the better things Khan did.


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## teqniq (Sep 13, 2022)

I too would like to know how much public money the Met wasted:









						Met Police slammed for secrecy over cost of failed Sarah Everard vigil appeals - The Big Issue
					

The decision "continues the Met Police's legacy of covering themselves at every turn," said Jamie Klingler of Reclaim These Streets



					www.bigissue.com


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## teqniq (Sep 21, 2022)

Cross posted from the filth by name thread:

Two of the officers bought to trial over this found guilty:









						Wayne Couzens’ Met Police colleagues convicted over WhatsApp messages
					

Posts were discovered when detectives seized Couzens’ phone following the murder of Sarah Everard




					www.independent.co.uk


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## stockwelljonny (Dec 6, 2022)

Happened to sit on this bench over weekend, at the top of the hill in Brockwell Park. RIP


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