# Football Lads Against Fascism



## Red About Town (Jul 24, 2018)

This new group is getting a lot of support on social media in the 24 hours or so since they appeared.

Not sure long term plans but an interesting development all the same.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 24, 2018)

Aye


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## Nigel (Jul 24, 2018)

Are you/they going to be organising an event ?


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## Red Sky (Jul 25, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> This new group is getting a lot of support on social media in the 24 hours or so since they appeared.
> 
> Not sure long term plans but an interesting development all the same.



Arguments about the correct line on footwear already breaking out.


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## Poi E (Jul 25, 2018)

Good. Some muscle.


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## Red Sky (Jul 25, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Good. Some muscle.



Well maybe. Not sure that sitting down for 90 minutes and eating a pie is that much of a work out.


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## Nice one (Jul 25, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Arguments about the correct line on footwear already breaking out.



nemen are jackets, mainly.

That said converse hi tops  _#theleftcan'tdress_


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## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2018)

The lure of the _authentic_. Can't stop it.


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## Nice one (Jul 25, 2018)

Reclus


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## Sweet FA (Jul 25, 2018)

Flafel.


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## Fedayn (Jul 26, 2018)

Nice one said:


> nemen are jackets, mainly.
> 
> That said converse hi tops  _#theleftcan'tdress_



Nice jackets too.


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## SpackleFrog (Jul 26, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> This new group is getting a lot of support on social media in the 24 hours or so since they appeared.
> 
> Not sure long term plans but an interesting development all the same.



Will be interesting if anything beyond a FB page develops.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2018)

Bit fed up with this 'lads' thing myself.


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## JimW (Jul 26, 2018)

More your speed, ed? The Gentleman Ultra


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## butchersapron (Jul 26, 2018)

LADS ALL LADS

25 HOUR LADS


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## chilango (Jul 26, 2018)

Soccer Guys.


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## chilango (Jul 26, 2018)

Rugger Chaps


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## chilango (Jul 26, 2018)

It's a bit shit whichever words you fit into the formula I'm afraid.


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## editor (Jul 26, 2018)

Laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaads.


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## MightyTibberton (Jul 26, 2018)

Boys (didn't hooligans used to have Top Boys?), 
Fellas, 
Blokes, 
Guys, 
Mandem, 
Males...
Or
Les Hommes de Foot...


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## sihhi (Jul 26, 2018)

MightyTibberton said:


> Boys (didn't hooligans used to have Top Boys?),
> Fellas,
> Blokes,
> Guys,
> ...



Fans?


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## emanymton (Jul 26, 2018)

chilango said:


> Soccer Guys.


Soccer supporters. 

Get some alliteration going for you.


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## MightyTibberton (Jul 26, 2018)

FFAF replaces FLAF in their battle against FLA and DFLA (aka the True FLA!)


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## JimW (Jul 26, 2018)

Bit of a faff.


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## imposs1904 (Jul 26, 2018)

MightyTibberton said:


> Boys (didn't hooligans used to have Top Boys?),
> Fellas,
> Blokes,
> Guys,
> ...



geeeezers, surely?


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## editor (Jul 26, 2018)

What's wrong with the totally inclusive, gender-neutral term, 'Football Fans'?


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## Red Sky (Jul 26, 2018)

editor said:


> What's wrong with the totally inclusive, gender-neutral term, 'Football Fans'?



Cos they're going for Absolute Boi market.


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## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2018)

Poi E said:


> Good. Some muscle.


its not a dating society


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## The39thStep (Jul 26, 2018)

Just seen this on Twitter


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## Nice one (Jul 26, 2018)

Fedayn said:


> Nice jackets too.



absolutely, takes tie dying to a whole new different level


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## MightyTibberton (Jul 26, 2018)

SCHISM! 

Already.


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## emanymton (Jul 27, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Just seen this on Twitter


No one should ever use the word lasses unless they are Scottish.


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## Edie (Jul 27, 2018)

emanymton said:


> No one should ever use the word lasses unless they are Scottish.


The people of Yorkshire might take issue with that.


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## emanymton (Jul 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> The people of Yorkshire might take issue with that.


I'll allow it.


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2018)

emanymton said:


> No one should ever use the word lasses unless they are Scottish.


They use it in north Manchester


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## Serge Forward (Jul 27, 2018)

Used in Lancs too... but in Stoke, would the correct term be football wenches???


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## Fedayn (Jul 27, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> Used in Lancs too... but in Stoke, would the correct term be football wenches???



The term of endearment in the Potteries would be 'duck'.


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 27, 2018)

Edie said:


> The people of Yorkshire will take issue with literally anything.



Ffy


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## Fedayn (Jul 27, 2018)

editor said:


> What's wrong with the totally inclusive, gender-neutral term, 'Football Fans'?



Because it is aimed at a certain audience at a guess. All too many people, football fans included, have a view of all those who selfrefer as 'lads' ie those who have, who do and who will get involved in terrace culture events ie displays, fights, pyro, smokes etc are de facto all fash/loyalist/racist types without exception. All too many on the Left have this attitude too, as has been demonstrated on all too many SDL/anti SDL demos up here. Add that into the fact that within minutes of 'normal' fans finding out would be the refrain 'they're not real fan's etc etc.... it is a deliberate move, I presume to make it clear that whilst they may be 'lads' they are most certainly not racist etc and militantly so. And, most obviously imho, it is a direct rebuttal of the FLA/DFLA/EDL/SDL who are increasingly working amongst that section of supporters....


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## SpackleFrog (Jul 27, 2018)

Fedayn said:


> Because it is aimed at a certain audience at a guess. All too many people, football fans included, have a view of all those who selfrefer as 'lads' ie those who have, who do and who will get involved in terrace culture events ie displays, fights, pyro, smokes etc are de facto all fash/loyalist/racist types without exception. All too many on the Left have this attitude too, as has been demonstrated on all too many SDL/anti SDL demos up here. Add that into the fact that within minutes of 'normal' fans finding out would be the refrain 'they're not real fan's etc etc.... it is a deliberate move, I presume to make it clear that whilst they may be 'lads' they are most certainly not racist etc and militantly so. And, most obviously imho, it is a direct rebuttal of the FLA/DFLA/EDL/SDL who are increasingly working amongst that section of supporters....



Exactly. Far right are using terrace culture but a huge sections of casuals don't have any truck with racist bullshit. An attempt to show that.


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## emanymton (Jul 27, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> They use it in north Manchester





Serge Forward said:


> Used in Lancs too... but in Stoke, would the correct term be football wenches???


Not in my experance.


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## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2018)

ducks


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## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2018)

me


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## Serge Forward (Jul 27, 2018)

I lived in Stoke for five years in the early 80s and worked in one of the bigger pottery factories for a while. Duck was always a greeting or term of endearment but it was never a variant of lass. And if my memory serves me right, the equivalent of lads and lasses was youths and wenches. What all this has to do with an antifascist football crew though...


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## The39thStep (Jul 27, 2018)

emanymton said:


> Not in my experance.


bubble


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## Red About Town (Jul 28, 2018)

FLAF is a group by, and for, football lads and lasses. We are not a liberal pressure group, nor are we affiliated to any political party, organisation, or other campaign. There are plenty of those around for people to choose from. Our bottom line is anti-fascism and football. For us the two go together, and that is our basis for existing. If you're an anti-fascist then excellent, but if you're not a football fan or are thinking of forcing yourself to become a football fan, for the sake of joining us, then there are other groups out there for you.

We chose the term 'Against Fascism' deliberately because it implies a militant response to all instances of discrimination at football and in wider society. It is also the case that the fascists have politically evolved and see less currency in overt racism, even widening their scope to include some people of colour. By attempting to curb their own racist instincts they have only confirmed that this is a long-term fascist political project which has the support of the entire European far-right.

It's time now for those fans who oppose the rise of the right at football to stand up and be counted. As well as mobilising against their marches, we need to counter them at our own clubs, by whatever means is necessary, from leaflet and sticker campaigns to gentle persuasion.

As we said in the first post:

* FLAF is about building a progressive alternative to the recent far-right revival among football firms in Britain.

* The page is run by football fans for football fans.

* We oppose all forms of racism & discrimination.

* We welcome all progressive anti-racist & anti-fascist football supporters - lads & lasses - to our cause


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## Libertad (Jul 28, 2018)

> "Great bunch of lads."


M.Jupp


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## editor (Jul 28, 2018)

Red About Town said:


> FLAF is a group by, and for, football lads and lasses. We are not a liberal pressure group, nor are we affiliated to any political party, organisation, or other campaign. There are plenty of those around for people to choose from. Our bottom line is anti-fascism and football. For us the two go together, and that is our basis for existing. If you're an anti-fascist then excellent, but if you're not a football fan or are thinking of forcing yourself to become a football fan, for the sake of joining us, then there are other groups out there for you.
> 
> We chose the term 'Against Fascism' deliberately because it implies a militant response to all instances of discrimination at football and in wider society. It is also the case that the fascists have politically evolved and see less currency in overt racism, even widening their scope to include some people of colour. By attempting to curb their own racist instincts they have only confirmed that this is a long-term fascist political project which has the support of the entire European far-right.
> 
> ...


You don't think the name is a bit binary when it comes to gender? Not everyone wants to describe themselves as a 'lad' or a 'lass.' 

Sorry but it's a terrible name that is more likely to hinder your aims.


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## salem (Jul 28, 2018)

Sqabbles about 'binary genders' and the like are a turn off for a lot of people. It may not be perfect but 'lad' really isn't an offensive term and I'm sure just as many people will identify with it then with a generic catch all.


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## editor (Jul 28, 2018)

salem said:


> Sqabbles about 'binary genders' and the like are a turn off for a lot of people. It may not be perfect but 'lad' really isn't an offensive term and I'm sure just as many people will identify with it then with a generic catch all.


I have some experience of running a reasonably effective fans-based football campaign, and in my opinion this Lads and Lasses nomenclature is toe curlingly cringey and puts me right off from the start.


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## cantsin (Jul 28, 2018)

its pretty obviously a deliberate attempt to push back vs the FLA etc,  and needs to reflect that in the name  - 'Fans' just doesn't say the same thing, its isn't the same thing.


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## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2018)

Its a bit like the Apprentice isn't it when everyone wants to be on the marketing side of the project


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## editor (Jul 28, 2018)

cantsin said:


> its pretty obviously a deliberate attempt to push back vs the FLA etc,  and needs to reflect that in the name  - 'Fans' just doesn't say the same thing, its isn't the same thing.


So you got to be a 'lad' or a 'lass' to get involved? That's me out then.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 28, 2018)




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## cantsin (Jul 28, 2018)

editor said:


> So you got to be a 'lad' or a 'lass' to get involved? That's me out then.



would never remotely consider myself /  refer to myself etc as a ' lad ' , but the use of the term in the name FLAF immediately says a lot about what the organisation is about, what it's attitude to working class involvement in anti fascism is, and more. And tho not considering myself in any way, shape or form a lad, the use of it wouldn't put me off FLAF for a moment.


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## alcopop (Jul 28, 2018)

salem said:


> Sqabbles about 'binary genders' and the like are a turn off for a lot of people. It may not be perfect but 'lad' really isn't an offensive term and I'm sure just as many people will identify with it then with a generic catch all.


How about football folk against facism?


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## SpackleFrog (Jul 28, 2018)

alcopop said:


> How about football folk against facism?



Volk?

Nah fam. #LadzLadzLadz


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## Red About Town (Jul 29, 2018)

Excellent post by Philip Bruce: 

"Football Lads And Lasses Against Fascism 

Here’s my take; In the 70s the NF tried to recruit football fans as muscle for their anti-immigrant racist ideologies. Fast forward 40 years and the so-called Football Lads Alliance are exactly the same. 

So let’s get this straight. When these divs chant “whose streets? Our streets!” and “ we want our country back!” Let’s look at their actual standing in the world. 

90% are probably within the lowest income bracket of the country. The only thing they have to cling to is their sense of patriotism, a desperate belief thst they are somehow valued and respected by the very people that fuck them over in their everyday hand to mouth existence. Hey, they may be poor but at least they’re not Pakis ! 

Dig this brother! The streets were never yours. The country was never yours. Your class was called upon to protect the economic interests of your slave owners time and time and time again and you fell for the same divvy trick time and time and time again. 

You own fuck all! You count for fuck all! You are the sad little puppets of the state who need division in order to protect their own stolen wealth. 

If you are from a council estate and you find yourself supporting toff halfwits like Jacob Rees-Mogg and Boris Johnson or even that Luton shithouse, Yaxley-Lennon then you need to give yer swede a swivel. 

The city boys and the bankers and the spies and the judges, the lords and the ladies, the Tories and the Liberals, The Blairites and the Bobbies,The media tycoons and the fascist buffoons rely on your support. Even as they fuck you over, they can pat your heads and tell you you’re doing it for the right reasons. 

There is no national identity, only a con trick to slaughter working class men and women in the name of the “national interest.” Think how many of our class died in Ypres, the Somme, Normandy, Burma, Korea, Ireland, the Falklands, Afghanistan, Iraq -and for what? 

Life goes on. So called terrorists are now partners in government. Yesterday’s enemies are today’s allies. But your son is dead. Deals are done. Arms are sold. Hands are shaken.But your son is dead. Contracts are signed.Despots are feted. Red carpets are rolled out. But your son is dead.

For those who believe”class warfare” died with the miners, think on! Look around you. Look at your life and think who is really to blame. The muslims or the Poles, the socialists or the single mums, the gays or the homeless. 

Think who really robs you! Day in, day out! You and your kids and yer ma and da, and yer neighbours and yer mates and yer colleagues. Who gets rich off you?"


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## SpineyNorman (Jul 30, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> I lived in Stoke for five years in the early 80s and worked in one of the bigger pottery factories for a while. Duck was always a greeting or term of endearment but it was never a variant of lass. And if my memory serves me right, the equivalent of lads and lasses was youths and wenches. What all this has to do with an antifascist football crew though...


In Derbyshire duck is gender neutral term of endearment.


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Jul 30, 2018)

SpineyNorman said:


> In Derbyshire duck is gender neutral term of endearment.


And in Notts.
This could hark back to heyday of AFA when for example S. York’s AFA had people who would identify as Barnsley, Donny, Blades or Wednesday fans and there were links with some of those doing fanzines such as the Donny one at that time and people inspired by St Pauli and Celtic culture etc.
Other regional AFA groups were also built around friendship groups that socialised around MUFC, Liverpool etc if iirc.


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## SpackleFrog (Aug 14, 2018)

Got some coverage in the Metro: New anti-fascist football fans to fight rise of far right in football | Metro News

I don't think it could be Football Fans Against Fascism by the way (FFAF), not that FLAF is a great acronym.


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## Red About Town (Sep 2, 2018)

A New Anti-Fascist Football Group Has Recruited Thousands Of Fans To Fight The Far Right


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## The39thStep (Sep 2, 2018)

Doing a good job with activity around a lot of teams. Personally I dont regard the DFLA as fascists but when their leaders mate Frank Portinari is a member ( 'he's a mate but we dont talk about politics') and they post a video by someone who openly supports Gen Id  you have to say that their claim to be against all extremism is somewhat bold. Their Facebook pages are extremely anti left , politically they are UKIP types however given the lack of bombings to march against they are very busy finding new causes . Earlier this year it was Justice for the 21 in Birmingham  and now its the rapes in Sunderland all issues that a lot of people would have no trouble supporting.It would be a shame if they were left to write the narrative.


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## Idris2002 (Sep 6, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Well maybe. Not sure that sitting down for 90 minutes and eating a pie is that much of a work out.


So that's where I went wrong.


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## mrs quoad (Sep 6, 2018)

MightyTibberton said:


> SCHISM!
> 
> Already.


AntiLa


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 6, 2018)

According to their FB page Sheffield SUTR were out at the Blades game last week handing out those FLAF stickers as well as their usual Don't Let Hate Win material. 

Stand Up To Racism Sheffield

It's not just all secretly another fucking swappie front is it?


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## cantsin (Sep 6, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> According to their FB page Sheffield SUTR were out at the Blades game last week handing out those FLAF stickers as well as their usual Don't Let Hate Win material.
> 
> Stand Up To Racism Sheffield
> 
> It's not just all secretly another fucking swappie front is it?



wld be v surprised if it was - the memey / badge stuff looks like it cld be coming from the same Proletarian Memetics Lab (FB ) / TAL ( possibly ) end of things at a guess, and none if this very Swappie generally (at all)  ?


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 6, 2018)

cantsin said:


> wld be v surprised if it was - the memey / badge stuff looks like it cld be coming from the same Proletarian Memetics Lab (FB ) / TAL ( posssibly ) end of things ) at a guess, and none if its very Swappie at all ?



Did think that - I mean, they hate football, always have, and #LADZ. But this is first example I've seen of anyone actually doing anything IRL with the FLAF brand.


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## Nigel (Sep 6, 2018)

They probably doing more harm than good: S W P !
I doubt they have any genuine connection or long term supporters of clubs !
As far as liberal establishment campaigns in the past were.are successful, 'kick racism out of football' appeared to be reasonably good !

Maybe if there was a genuine strategy finding known long term fans to be involved and producing fanzine that links into local community issues, problems with corruption and club an element of class consciousness & like B Bulldog used to pics of known characters, fans & antics pf alleged 'hoolies'; then add more hardline political stuff later as popularity increases.
Having a load of students, middle class types & cliched lefties parachuting in could cause more problems than getting genuine support !


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## gawkrodger (Sep 7, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's not just all secretly another fucking swappie front is it?



It's very far from an SWP front


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 7, 2018)

gawkrodger said:


> It's very far from an SWP front



I'm glad to hear it. But who/what is it then? 

I think this kind of initiative has real potential. I'd like to get involved in some way, but not in Sheffield if it's gonna mean handing out that SUTR shite to people. 

It would be good to know about whether people are doing this kind of stuff at other clubs, or about other examples of people using this to build among football supporters.


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## LiamO (Sep 7, 2018)

Nigel said:


> I doubt they have any genuine connection or long term supporters of clubs !



Lol


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## LiamO (Sep 7, 2018)

Nigel said:


> Having a load of students, middle class types & cliched lefties parachuting in could cause more problems than getting genuine support !



Just as well then, that FLAF is a load of working class football fans, most of whom are political activists too.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 7, 2018)

LiamO said:


> Just as well then, that FLAF is a load of working class football fans, most of whom are political activists too.



How many? What kind of activists? Can we get involved?


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## The39thStep (Sep 7, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> How many? What kind of activists? Can we get involved?


Facebook page good place to start. Lots of stickers going up at clubs.  Supporters include some who attended FLA marches  but who left because they felt FLA were too right wing .


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## juice_terry (Sep 11, 2018)

cantsin said:


> wld be v surprised if it was - the memey / badge stuff looks like it cld be coming from the same Proletarian Memetics Lab (FB ) / TAL ( possibly ) end of things at a guess, and none if this very Swappie generally (at all)  ?


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## cantsin (Sep 11, 2018)

juice_terry said:


>



on a related note, Red London's off it's tits at the moment


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## ddraig (Sep 11, 2018)

swappies saying it's great and asking for stickers in Cardiff
might be an attempted (local) takeover, or just enthusiasm for a new direction, we'll see...


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## manji (Sep 12, 2018)

It is an entirely grass roots reaction to Robinson’s increasing influence on the terraces. SWP , UAF, Hope Not Hate etc have all attempted to excert influence but have all been declined.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2018)

manji said:


> It is an entirely grass roots reaction to Robinson’s increasing influence on the terraces. SWP , UAF, Hope Not Hate etc have all attempted to excert influence but have all been declined.



Is it anything beyond a facebook page and stickers though? Or are there plans for it to be?

If the only people actually handing these stickers out are SWP then eventually it will become associated with them whether it is or not.


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## ddraig (Sep 12, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is it anything beyond a facebook page and stickers though? Or are there plans for it to be?
> 
> If the only people actually handing these stickers out are SWP then eventually it will become associated with them whether it is or not.


Why would the only people handing them out be SWP when it started as not involving them? have you looked at the page and the amount of people from different clubs asking for stickers to be made and to get hold of them?? 
Of course the swappies will be trying to jump on the bandwagon, as per usual, hopefully they won't be able to take it over/appropriate it


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2018)

ddraig said:


> Why would the only people handing them out be SWP when it started as not involving them? have you looked at the page and the amount of people from different clubs asking for stickers to be made and to get hold of them??
> Of course the swappies will be trying to jump on the bandwagon, as per usual, hopefully they won't be able to take it over/appropriate it



Yes, I've looked at the page. My point, which I'm beginning to feel people are being very defensive about, is that the only people I have seen any evidence of using these stickers and this brand to talk to football fans about anti racism are SWP. 

Is this a campaign or just some stickers? If it is a campaign, how can we get involved?


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## ddraig (Sep 12, 2018)

Are you a swappie?

Ime, people (footy fans) I know who aren't swappies in Cardiff have got involved and hold of the stickers and spreading the word to footy fans.
apparently it's to counter the FLA and DFLA and an attempt to stop the rise of the right at football clubs, I haven't got involved as i'm not a massive footy fan so would be disingenuous
Did hear that a couple of swappies/sutr went to a meeting near me and were raving about it and asking for stickers etc

Maybe look on the page(s) to see who from your club/area have asked for stickers and whether they're organising, at a guess


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2018)

ddraig said:


> Are you a swappie?
> 
> Ime, people (footy fans) I know who aren't swappies in Cardiff have got involved and hold of the stickers and spreading the word to footy fans.
> apparently it's to counter the FLA and DFLA and an attempt to stop the rise of the right at football clubs, I haven't got involved as i'm not a massive footy fan so would be disingenuous
> ...



No you fucking muppet of course I'm not a swop. 

Great. You heard about a meeting. Who organised the meeting? 

As I've explained earlier the only people doing anything related to the stickers in Sheffield are SWP. I don't want to go and help them give out SUTR leaflets. What I'm trying to find out is if there are any people at all in my area I can get involved with who are doing anything. 

I am a football fan but one that lives in exile from my hometown and my club - I go to the odd Wednesday game but not enough to be part of the community iyswim.


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## ddraig (Sep 12, 2018)

no need for the muppet now! just asking, glad to hear it
I'm not going to tell you who organised the meeting and it's irrelevant as not even in your fucking country
I've suggested how you could find out who's getting involved where you are so maybe do that rather than asking here


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 12, 2018)

ddraig said:


> no need for the muppet now! just asking, glad to hear it
> I'm not going to tell you who organised the meeting and it's irrelevant as not even in your fucking country
> I've suggested how you could find out who's getting involved where you are so maybe do that rather than asking here



It's clearly not irrelevant. 

Yes thank you, lots of people have said check the page what nobody has said is anything other than "there if a facebook page". I am aware there is a page, gave a like and a share and everything.


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## ddraig (Sep 12, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> It's clearly not irrelevant.
> 
> Yes thank you, lots of people have said check the page what nobody has said is anything other than "there if a facebook page". I am aware there is a page, gave a like and a share and everything.


How is who organised a meeting in Cardiff relevant to you?? 
Maybe search the page for "Sheffield" and see who's fucking posted. HTH


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is it anything beyond a facebook page and stickers though? Or are there plans for it to be?
> 
> If the only people actually handing these stickers out are SWP then eventually it will become associated with them whether it is or not.


To suggest that the only people handing out sticker are the SWP is laughable. I know about 200 FLAF around the country and they are all genuine football supporters. A surprisingly large amount of casuals. Supporters all around the country are producing and financing their own stickers based on the basic FLAF template.
I’ve found that the few times SWP or UAF have tried to dip in they are confused by the concept of average football lads organising something like this.
The page does come over as a badge collectors forum at times but it has been very effective in spreading the word. It’s just the start. We have only been going 6 weeks.
FLA are genuinely confused as well one of them suggesting it was a combined Anti-Fa / Police Action to smoke out the Nazis in the FLA FFS.
Again they can’t get thier heads round the fact that casuals and ex hoolies can be opposed to them.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2018)

editor said:


> Bit fed up with this 'lads' thing myself.





emanymton said:


> No one should ever use the word lasses unless they are Scottish.



Ah me lads, ye shud only seen us gannin’,
We pass’d the foaks upon the road just as they wor stannin’;
Thor wes lots o’ lads an’ lasses there, all wi’ smiling faces,
Gawn alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Ah me lads, ye shud only seen us gannin’,
> We pass’d the foaks upon the road just as they wor stannin’;
> Thor wes lots o’ lads an’ lasses there, all wi’ smiling faces,
> Gawn alang the Scotswood Road, to see the Blaydon Races.


It’s specifically to mirror the FLA even our logo is an appropriation of the FLA


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2018)

manji said:


> It’s specifically to mirror the FLA even our logo is an appropriation of the FLA



Yes, I know that, I was countering the odd stance that it isn’t common vernacular/ or outside of Scotland.


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

We weren’t even going to uses lasses. Then it developed into lasses or lassies. But a lot of females are involved so we agreed to it. 
 I knew a few smart arses would  latch on to it. Heard it all before.


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes, I know that, I was countering the odd stance that it isn’t common vernacular/ or outside of Scotland.


Lassies is Scotland.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2018)

manji said:


> We weren’t even going to uses lasses. Then it developed into lasses or lassies. But a lot of females are involved so we agreed to it.
> I knew a few smart arses would  latch on to it. Heard it all before.



Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2018)

manji said:


> Lassies is Scotland.



I was merely pointing out that it’s common vernacular in the NE England to those I quoted; it wasn’t a criticism aimed at FLAF so I’ve no idea what we’re disagreeing about.


----------



## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I was merely pointing out that it’s common vernacular in the NE England to those I quoted; it wasn’t a criticism aimed at FLAF so I’ve no idea what we’re disagreeing about.


Point taken.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 13, 2018)

manji said:


> To suggest that the only people handing out sticker are the SWP is laughable.



I'm not, I'm saying they are the only people using them where I am, and that I'd like to get involved but not with them. 

I'm not unsympathetic to what you're saying and I appreciate it's only been going a few weeks. I'm just asking for ways to get involved/do something with it beyond stickering places.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 13, 2018)

ddraig said:


> How is who organised a meeting in Cardiff relevant to you??
> Maybe search the page for "Sheffield" and see who's fucking posted. HTH



Fighting racism on the terraces everywhere is relevant to all of us everywhere


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## ddraig (Sep 13, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Fighting racism on the terraces everywhere is relevant to all of us everywhere


yes of course
does not invalidate what I said


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> I'm not, I'm saying they are the only people using them where I am, and that I'd like to get involved but not with them.
> 
> I'm not unsympathetic to what you're saying and I appreciate it's only been going a few weeks. I'm just asking for ways to get involved/do something with it beyond stickering places.


At the moment we are at the stickering networking stage. It’s grown faster and bigger than we expected. I have gone from myself and another person in my club, to now we have large groups in 7 clubs in my area. We exchange information, we are having an informal meet this weekend.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 13, 2018)

manji said:


> At the moment we are at the stickering networking stage. It’s grown faster and bigger than we expected. I have gone from myself and another person in my club, to now we have large groups in 7 clubs in my area. We exchange information, we are having an informal meet this weekend.



That's excellent, well done.


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## manji (Sep 13, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> That's excellent, well done.


Thanks but it’s happening all over the country.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 14, 2018)

manji said:


> Thanks but it’s happening all over the country.



Again, that's excellent, be great to hear about anything happening in South Yorkshire!


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## The39thStep (Sep 14, 2018)

Theres beginning to be a bit of news on Twitter


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## manji (Sep 14, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Again, that's excellent, be great to hear about anything happening in South Yorkshire!


They demos aren’t going to happen straight away . It’s about networking and forming groups. Just message anyone who lives near you or supports the same team.
Three of us ( we didn’t know each other) just went for a coffee the other day. Coordinated stickering , exchanged info on known FLA members etc. Might not sound much but we have quite a formidable grouping in my area now and we aren’t placard carriers.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 14, 2018)

manji said:


> They demos aren’t going to happen straight away . It’s about networking and forming groups. Just message anyone who lives near you or supports the same team.
> Three of us ( we didn’t know each other) just went for a coffee the other day. Coordinated stickering , exchanged info on known FLA members etc. Might not sound much but we have quite a formidable grouping in my area now and we aren’t placard carriers.



No that sounds great and how you've gotta do it innit. It might be slightly tougher for me - I'm an exile. I know of people who are interested/following the FLAF stuff at my hometown club, and I know a few people who go to Wednesday matches and go along with them now and again, but I'm not in a position to take any kind of lead among Wednesday fans. But talking about it with football fans I know and thinking about what I can do.


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## SpackleFrog (Sep 14, 2018)

I know a few Blades as well to be fair but fuck the piggies innit, only been there as an away fan


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## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2018)

Coffee?


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## ddraig (Sep 15, 2018)

.


----------



## gawkrodger (Sep 18, 2018)




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## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2018)

Apparently _someone/some people _are posting on the FLAF page/group as me and trying to cause mischief. It isn't me. 

(Longer term posters can probably guess whose behind this nonsense after near 15 years of this bullshit. Odd how this started almost as soon as i mentioned _flimsier _(who we know still reads here) as now running a free school).


----------



## sealion (Sep 19, 2018)

gawkrodger said:


>


That's portsmouths mob who had a rep for being racist bitd!


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## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2018)

We've had a bit of a Twitter/social media 'conversation' with the DFLA, mainly outing known fash and Orange order in their ranks. They posted this (below) on their facebook page which is interesting if rambling and at times 'imaginative'


> If there are two words that can be lethal in a political conversation, that can stop an argument dead and lead it off into a tit for tat session of insults they are “Far Right”
> 
> The far right do exist, but like cockroaches they scatter when you throw light on them, they seem to have no logical debates, no reasonable solutions, just one of hatred and as Paul weller said, “hatred offers a solution but never one for long”
> 
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 19, 2018)

Part 2


> Unfortunately, the DFLA have noticed that on Saturday a few BNP were at our Protest against the rape and abuse of women and children.
> 
> At this point I would like to thank Gemma Goldsmith for the photos she took, advising us of these vermin who infiltrated a non racist and peaceful demo. Great work Emma. Credit where credit is due.
> 
> ...


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 19, 2018)

Saint Tommy doesn’t appear to have featured in their denunciations.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 19, 2018)

butchersapron said:


> Apparently _someone/some people _are posting on the FLAF page/group as me and trying to cause mischief. It isn't me.
> 
> (Longer term posters can probably guess whose behind this nonsense after near 15 years of this bullshit. Odd how this started almost as soon as i mentioned _flimsier _(who we know still reads here) as now running a free school).


...


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## Patteran (Sep 19, 2018)

Referring to the opposition as 'our mossad' while presenting anti-nazi credentials is a bit of an own goal. It's interesting that they're taking note of the criticisms, attempting to answer them. It's an example of the changing, adaptive (contingent? I never know if i'm using that word correctly) aspect of socialised politics, isn't it? The Front's crude 70s approach is no longer useful, Nazis were always a hard sell in England,  so reactionary elements articulate themselves in newer ways that stay closer to perceived common sense. Lee Rigby's deranged murderer is despised for his actions primarily, & secondly for his perceived-motivating Muslimness - his blackness doesn't feature, at least not explicitly. The word 'race' gets swapped in favour of 'culture', but the appeal to & of homogeneity remains. So the new DFLA can be anti-racist - just like English football, & just as inclusive as the British Army. Still doesn't explain why they've declared Celtic 'extremists' & are trying to batter RMT members. Acting as a disciplinary force on labour is text-book fascist behaviour. Which fits, because a fella apparently close to their leadership certainly thinks of himself as a text-book mussolini-type fascist who maintains Italian fascism wasn't particularly racist.  

Perhaps this is will become part of the new politics. 80s/90s we had large solidarity demonstrations with respectable heads & militant tails. The trades unionists & MPs at the front with the banners & the cameras could disassociate themselves to a large extent from the direct action taking place in the sidestreets, before & afterwards. Now we're witnessing large negative-solidarity demonstrations, UKIP & DFLA leadership at the front, & a deniable far-right element always present on the margins. It does make it to hard to counter in general terms, in soundbite or slogan terms. Fair play to FLAF for drawing them out, forcing them to articulate political positions that can be criticised properly - that is, not just condemned or sneered at, but investigated in terms of 'what conditions make these positions seem reasonable?'


----------



## Fallon (Sep 19, 2018)

Going to go to this march in October. The FLAF is the most intersting development in anti fascism in Britain in many years.


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## flyingcolumn (Sep 20, 2018)

The founder of the FLAF was praising the actual FLA on his Red Action FB page when they first formed and the months that followed.


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## Fallon (Sep 20, 2018)

flyingcolumn said:


> The founder of the FLAF was praising the actual FLA on his Red Action FB page when they first formed and the months that followed.



I followed those threads on the Facebook page and the above is incorrect.


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## Patteran (Sep 20, 2018)

The RA FB page admins showed interest in the FLA as an expression of working class politics, acknowledged genuine grievances around a) anger at murderous violence on the streets of London & Mcr & b) a policing system that took passports off fat lads suspected of throwing chairs while being surprisingly relaxed about petty criminals jetting off to join armed insurgencies, & consequently guarded against denouncing everyone involved as a hardcore fascist. Expedient, & good form. Letting the FLA speak for themselves, insisting they define themselves politically, explicitly, rather than letting them hide & unite behind the victimhood of 'you cant say anything without being called a racist', worked well. The FLA tied themselves in knots, & subsequently split acrimoniously, & some who joined in good faith walked away looking for progressive alternatives. FLAF could become a network for that progressive alternative.


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## Fallon (Sep 20, 2018)

The voice of reason - one may say.


----------



## juice_terry (Sep 20, 2018)

Patteran said:


> The RA FB page admins showed interest in the FLA as an expression of working class politics, acknowledged genuine grievances around a) anger at murderous violence on the streets of London & Mcr & b) a policing system that took passports off fat lads suspected of throwing chairs while being surprisingly relaxed about petty criminals jetting off to join armed insurgencies, & consequently guarded against denouncing everyone involved as a hardcore fascist. Expedient, & good form. Letting the FLA speak for themselves, insisting they define themselves politically, explicitly, rather than letting them hide & unite behind the victimhood of 'you cant say anything without being called a racist', worked well. The FLA tied themselves in knots, & subsequently split acrimoniously, & some who joined in good faith walked away looking for progressive alternatives. FLAF could become a network for that progressive alternative.


Got it in one 

Sent from my CLT-L09 using Tapatalk


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## LiamO (Sep 23, 2018)

So what, exactly, is occurring on Oct 13th?


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 23, 2018)

LiamO said:


> So what, exactly, is occurring on Oct 13th?


I know there’s a DFLA march planned for then but not much about details.


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## The39thStep (Sep 23, 2018)

LiamO said:


> So what, exactly, is occurring on Oct 13th?


DFLA march in London , FLAF section on counterdemo. Corbyn was wearing both  Liverpool and Everton FLAF stickers when he was at the Hillsborough memorial.


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## The39thStep (Sep 26, 2018)

RMT launch new antifascist stewarding group


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## Fallon (Sep 26, 2018)

Haven't watch the clip but not surprising after the attack on Hedley.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 28, 2018)

This is an interesting development.  Newcastle Unites (SWP/Labour front) have actually got some proper speakers/support from various trade unions on at their rally this time (something that doesn't always happen) - against the "Ban the Burka" NE Frontline Patriots (ex EDL) march.  And some Trade Unionists and NUFC fans (with I suspect SP involvement) are organising under the FLAF name and are trying to get cross-involvement between them and the Mike Ashley Out protests.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 28, 2018)

We’re so fucked it’s untrue.


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## LiamO (Sep 29, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> We’re so fucked it’s untrue.




?


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## Nigel (Sep 29, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> RMT launch new antifascist stewarding group



At long last !


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Sep 30, 2018)

LiamO said:


> ?



I just meant in terms of where everything seems to be heading; the trajectory of far right growth everywhere.


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## Fallon (Oct 2, 2018)

Just the type of activity that is needed at football grounds all over Britain.

Luton Town fans are fighting back against racism & fascism





Luton Town #FLAF Sticker
Last weekend, Luton Town welcomed Charlton Athletic to Kenilworth Road. Football Lads and Lassies against Fascism (FLAF) decided to leaflet this game in opposition to the far right Democratic Football Lads Alliance (DFLA) and their figurehead Stephen Christopher Yaxley-Lennon, who calls himself Tommy Robinson and is a supporter of the club.
Luton Town is significant because it is one of the most diverse towns in Britain, yet it’s also notorious for being the birthplace of the racist English Defence League (EDL) which was founded by Yaxley-Lennon. At West Brom and Portsmouth away matches a small minority of Luton fans have chanted racist slogans and songs in support of Yaxley-Lennon.




Stephen Yaxley-Lennon - under arrest
Supporters of FLAF felt it was important to show that these bigots are a small minority and that Yaxley-Lennon has no real support in Luton Town.
The leaflet was produced by FLAF supporters based in Luton. It argued that the DFLA and Yaxley-Lennon are racist and they have nothing but contempt for working class people. It also pointed out that the recent statement from the club was weak and that the club should produce a new statement condemning racists at the club and offering support for anti racist fans who want to drive out the bigots.
We met at a couple of meeting points about 90 minutes before kick off. A group of the Men In Gear or M.I.G’s, the original Luton Town soccer casuals, some trade unionists and Momentum supporters agreed to leaflet different sections of the home support. As we began handing out leaflets we found the overwhelming majority of fans, both men and women, were receptive and took leaflets. We also discovered that a large minority of fans were really delighted that we were there challenging the bigots. This wasn’t the hotbed of racism many had feared.
Some of the fans were saying this is what is needed at the club. There were lots of supportive comments to encourage us to keep up the good work. One couple who go to the away games said that the problem here is a small group of older men in their 50s who are drinking too much and being abusive to other fans during the game. Others agreed that the recent statement from the club was not strong enough.
A number of people stopped us and asked how they could get involved. One elderly Asian fan stopped to help with the leafleting. Another said he liked what we were doing but complained that there was no mention of homophobia in the leaflet. He explained that his two sons are gay and they feel unable to attend Luton Town games because of the poisonous atmosphere created by the bigots. He said that the actions of this minority meant that many other people felt unwelcome at the club. He said he was going to write to the Luton CEO to try and get the bigots banned from the ground.
Just before kick-off, a group young racist Charlton lads tried to break up the leafleting. They were shouting 'Brexit means Brexit', 'Cmon FLAF' and 'you're all a bunch of lefty fascists'! They surrounded the elderly Asian fan and tried to intimidate him. At this point it wasn't clear who they were but a group of the M.I.G.’s stopped them and moved them along making it clear that we don’t want none of this racist shit at Luton, pointing out that the M.I.G.'s were a united crew. They made it clear to this small group of racists that they weren’t welcome at Luton Town.
We handed out 1000 leaflets, meaning that about one in 8 luton fans got a copy. We got into a lot of great conversations with Luton Town fans who are sick of the shame Yaxley-Lennon has brought to Luton Town and the reputation the bigots bring to the club.
The success we had at Luton Town shows it’s possible for fans who oppose the fascists to organise and leaflet at any club against the DFLA. We are currently encouraging FLAF supporters at Luton Town to join the anti DFLA protest in London on October 13th. Next time we leaflet Luton Town we will have a bigger team as we continue our battle to make Luton Town a club that welcomes all


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## treelover (Oct 4, 2018)

This sounds like the article you read in socialist worker, its not nuanced, etc

"The RA FB page admins showed interest in the FLA as an expression of working class politics, acknowledged genuine grievances around a) anger at murderous violence on the streets of London & Mcr & b) a policing system that took passports off fat lads suspected of throwing chairs while being surprisingly relaxed about petty criminals jetting off to join armed insurgencies, & consequently guarded against denouncing everyone involved as a hardcore fascist. Expedient, & good form."

Noting of the above in it.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 4, 2018)

treelover said:


> This sounds like the article you read in socialist worker, its not nuanced, etc
> 
> "The RA FB page admins showed interest in the FLA as an expression of working class politics, acknowledged genuine grievances around a) anger at murderous violence on the streets of London & Mcr & b) a policing system that took passports off fat lads suspected of throwing chairs while being surprisingly relaxed about petty criminals jetting off to join armed insurgencies, & consequently guarded against denouncing everyone involved as a hardcore fascist. Expedient, & good form."
> 
> Noting of the above in it.


Can't understand what you are trying to say.


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## cantsin (Oct 8, 2018)

Fallon said:


> Just the type of activity that is needed at football grounds all over Britain.
> 
> Luton Town fans are fighting back against racism & fascism
> 
> ...



sounds encouraging, especially with Lutons' MIGS lot getting involved ... if that was replicated elsewhere , wld be v interesting.
+  good to hear local Momentum there as well as TU's. Top work to all of you.


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## Fallon (Oct 10, 2018)

Saturday is the big one..

Hopefully as many anti fascists can join this as possible.


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2018)

Latest statement from FLAF steering group


> For Working Class Unity Against The DFLA
> Football Lads Against Fascism·Wednesday, 10 October 2018
> by Lee Stevens (FLAF Steering Group)
> A few weeks ago, at our first steering group meeting, around 20 people, all from football & anti-fascism, gathered together. They were of different ethnicities and religious backgrounds: Black, White, Brown, Muslim, Jew, Catholic, Protestant, Atheist.
> ...


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2018)

DFLA haven't had , as yet, a very succesful day out apparantly . Still a while to go but a good anti fascist turn out with both AFN and FLAF and others playing their parts.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 13, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> DFLA haven't had , as yet, a very succesful day out apparantly . Still a while to go but a good anti fascist turn out with both AFN and FLAF and others playing their parts.



Any report of numbers on our side?


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## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

About a 1000 AFN. 600 ish on the SUTR static.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

It was kind of hard to say how many DFLA there were, because they were all over the shop, mixed in with tourists and arriving in dribs and drabs. I'm not sure exactly what happened - the cops seem to have delayed the start of their march (was meant to start at 1, actually left at 2) and re-routed them. Also lots of them were outside of the actual march and hanging around Trafalgar Square, though not in a big group as per previous Free Tommy stuff, even the cops would be wise to that now. Not a vast number, probably less than the total number of counter-protestors.


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## paolo (Oct 13, 2018)

A few of DFLA were on random wanders trying to beckon AF into throwing the first punch. Didn’t get any takers that I saw. Made it tense viewing from the sidelines. One guy in a red t shirt wandered past with two full big glass beer bottles. Sure enough one went into AF on a lob. Big cheers from onlookers when someone caught it. Free beer, donated by the DFLA.

I overheard one policeman struggling to answer a tourist’s question in simple terms.
Cop: “Far right.”
(tourist is puzzled)
Cop: “KKK”

Made me chuckle.

DFLA were sent West at embankment, and AF corralled east. There was a brief rearguard attempt by DFLA, but AF were quick on it, shouts of “come back” to the marchers ahead, who responded swiftly. DFLA were outnumbered and promptly swamped by police.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

I'll say one thing - they really don't like it when women reply to their "banter" and clearly aren't intimidated. I was around a few who were shouting the usual stuff, "anybody here got a job" and so on, but when women shouted back and laughed at them, the jaws clenched, you could almost hear it.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

Anti fascist numbers were actually down on the last big London demo, (ven with the recent arrival of FLAF and the formation of an RMT anti fascist stewarding group) so the real question is what caused such a collapse in the DFLAs numbers?

One answer might be demo fatigue coupled a lack of any clear objective or point to this particular outing.

This is being celebrated as a success (Fair enough) but if Tommy Robinson had been sent down at his last court hearing it might have been very different.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

I ended up on the Trot gathering near Parliament square with rousing speeches saying things like, “eventually we’ll grow enough to stop them marching!” whilst they were actually already being stopped elsewhere. 
I thought this was supposed to be a ‘unity demo’ - as in everyone be in the one place? I couldn’t make the FLAF meeting point so headed to Parliament square thinking that’s where everyone would end up. My mistake.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I ended up on the Trot gathering near Parliament square with rousing speeches saying things like, “eventually we’ll grow enough to stop them marching!” whilst they were actually already being stopped elsewhere.
> I thought this was supposed to be a ‘unity demo’ - as in everyone be in the one place? I couldn’t make the FLAF meeting point so headed to Parliament square thinking that’s where everyone would end up. My mistake.



Dodging the AFN call out?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Anti fascist numbers were actually down on the last big London demo, (ven with the recent arrival of FLAF and the formation of an RMT anti fascist stewarding group) so the real question is what caused such a collapse in the DFLAs numbers?
> 
> One answer might be demo fatigue coupled a lack of any clear objective or point to this particular outing.
> 
> This is being celebrated as a success (Fair enough) but if Tommy Robinson had been sent down at his last court hearing it might have been very different.


I've written at length on the FLA thread (or one of them, I can't remember which) about my theories but this isn't a sudden collapse - it's been like this for the last couple of marches. They're nakedly far right now and involve loads of the elements that people on the first couple clearly hated. When I think back they had "no flags" rules, Tommy Robinson was actively unwelcome, and marchers cheered anti-racist counter-protestors because "we hate racism too". Not saying that there weren't shitty elements there of course but people were saying "we don't want to be the EDL mark 2" and that's what this is now so it's not surprising they don't turn up any more - plus the intrusion of all the youtube wankers.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Dodging the AFN call out?



I had to dash there from another commitment and made some incorrect assumptions. I assumed the AFN would March from the BBC (?) to Parliament Sq and I assumed FLAF would be a bloc with the unions actually. I was wrong on both counts. I wouldn’t choose to be with the swappies.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

FLAF were definitely involved in a pre-arrival scuffle on Whitehall outside the Moon Under Water - or at least some people were, who got surrounded by cops and shuffled off down Northumberland Avenue, and then brought out a FLAF banner.

It's a massive cliché about DFLA and Wetherspoons but the MUW does seem to be the Designated Fash Pub in the area whenever there's a march.


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## paolo (Oct 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I had to dash there from another commitment and made some incorrect assumptions. I assumed the AFN would March from the BBC (?) to Parliament Sq and I assumed FLAF would be a bloc with the unions actually. I was wrong on both counts. I wouldn’t choose to be with the swappies.



I did’t notice swappies where I was. Admittedly my eyesight is turning to shit, but those placards used to be unmissable.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I've written at length on the FLA thread (or one of them, I can't remember which) about my theories but this isn't a sudden collapse - it's been like this for the last couple of marches. They're nakedly far right now and involve loads of the elements that people on the first couple clearly hated. When I think back they had "no flags" rules, Tommy Robinson was actively unwelcome, and marchers cheered anti-racist counter-protestors because "we hate racism too". Not saying that there weren't shitty elements there of course but people were saying "we don't want to be the EDL mark 2" and that's what this is now so it's not surprising they don't turn up any more - plus the intrusion of all the youtube wankers.



But the last one , under the "Free Tommy" banner saw a few thousand of them out.


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## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Anti fascist numbers were actually down on the last big London demo, (ven with the recent arrival of FLAF and the formation of an RMT anti fascist stewarding group) so the real question is what caused such a collapse in the DFLAs numbers?
> 
> One answer might be demo fatigue coupled a lack of any clear objective or point to this particular outing.
> 
> This is being celebrated as a success (Fair enough) but if Tommy Robinson had been sent down at his last court hearing it might have been very different.


Yup he's the galvanising element.No Tommy no show. Perfect shit storm for the DFLA numbers down,, they've been on the back foot with people exposing fascists on their demos and social media pages , with Hickins daft Blood and Honour badge posting , a good period of 'discussion and debate' with them on social media , with FLAF leafletting football grounds before the demo etc. On the day itself a lot of broken promises about people turning up,FLAF calling them out in some of the pubs ,  generator malfunctioned so that had to have the speeches in another location and they faced a good turnout from anti fascists who split their march.  
What we need to build on is a progressive working class narrative and some activity on the ground to what they claim to stand for/be opposed to .The FLAF statement about supporting genuine organisations that help rape and sexual assault victims, links with Soldiers for Peace  and other progressive vet groups, organisations that represent all victims of terrorism etc  is very welcoming. Well done to all and to think that one of the founding FLAC members used to post on here regularly.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> But the last one , under the "Free Tommy" banner saw a few thousand of them out.


Nothing compared to the original FLA numbers though, and now there's no Tommy element (which was more significant than I thought it would be) it's going to go downhill even more.

(Obviously even a thousand is a thousand too many.)


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

paolo said:


> I did’t notice swappies where I was. Admittedly my eyesight is turning to shit, but those placards used to be unmissable.



They were at the front. I watched everyone march past then joined a mate after I’d spotted him.


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## paolo (Oct 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> They were at the front. I watched everyone march past then joined a mate after I’d spotted him.



Ah ok. :-/


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## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> Yup he's the galvanising element.No Tommy no show. Perfect shit storm for the DFLA numbers down,, they've been on the back foot with people exposing fascists on their demos and social media pages , with Hickins daft Blood and Honour badge posting , a good period of 'discussion and debate' with them on social media , with FLAF leafletting football grounds before the demo etc. On the day itself a lot of broken promises about people turning up,FLAF calling them out in some of the pubs ,  generator malfunctioned so that had to have the speeches in another location and they faced a good turnout from anti fascists who split their march.
> What we need to build on is a progressive working class narrative and some activity on the ground to what they claim to stand for/be opposed to .The FLAF statement about supporting genuine organisations that help rape and sexual assault victims, links with Soldiers for Peace  and other progressive vet groups, organisations that represent all victims of terrorism etc  is very welcoming. Well done to all and to think that one of the founding FLAC members used to post on here regularly.



FLAF  seem to have thrown their lot in with the AFN,  which is good.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 13, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> FLAF  seem to have thrown their lot in with the AFN,  which is good.


My mate said the AFN ( and others) stood their ground when the DFLA had a little surge. Anyone who supports the objectives of FLAF is welcome, what we also need is to recruit from new sources.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 13, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> My mate said the AFN ( and others) stood their ground when the DFLA had a little surge. Anyone who supports the objectives of FLAF is welcome, what we also need is to recruit from new sources.



Was he surprised by that? AFN have been standing their ground for years. Nice to have the support.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

paolo said:


> Ah ok. :-/



 

:-/


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

The STUR lot were on the static demo just north of Parliament Square. The front of the "unity demo" was all antifascist feminists.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The STUR lot were on the static demo just north of Parliament Square. The front of the "unity demo" was all antifascist feminists.



Yes, I realised that the unity demo wasn’t going to be a unity demo in hindsight. Wasn’t there a joining of numbers last time? That’s partly why I made incorrect assumptions.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Oct 13, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Yes, I realised that the unity demo wasn’t going to be a unity demo in hindsight. Wasn’t there a joining of numbers last time? That’s partly why I made incorrect assumptions.


I think just pretty much everybody was at the Parliament Square one last time.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 13, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think just pretty much everybody was at the Parliament Square one last time.



Exactly. I’m not knocking the other action/s btw. Just that I assumed there wouldn’t be two separate ones from the propaganda put out prior to it.


----------



## M Testa (Oct 13, 2018)

robinson absent but up in Glesgae for something or other. 
re: narratives. i dunno who this is but they have interesting insights into manipulating the narrative.
The Truth About Tommy Robinson’s Glasgow Misadventure


----------



## Fallon (Oct 14, 2018)

I look forward to a summary of yesterday's events from the FLAF. An intersting first day out.


----------



## Sean (Oct 14, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> My mate said the AFN ( and others) stood their ground when the DFLA had a little surge. Anyone who supports the objectives of FLAF is welcome, what we also need is to recruit from new sources.


Would have gone along if I'd had anyone to go with. Reluctant to wander along as an individual unless I know I'm meeting people there and I've not been on here much or active in a group for a long time now. If anyone who knows me from the old AFA days can message me, I'll get along next time.


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## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2018)

Sean said:


> Would have gone along if I'd had anyone to go with. Reluctant to wander along as an individual unless I know I'm meeting people there and I've not been on here much or active in a group for a long time now. If anyone who knows me from the old AFA days can message me, I'll get along next time.


FLAF have a Facebook group and Twitter stream you can directly message them. A few old faces and lots of new ones


----------



## Fallon (Oct 14, 2018)




----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2018)

Beat me to it


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Fallon said:


>



It's amazing that a professional sociologist can't recognise that cultural markers of class are fluid and change over time, the idea the Unity demo looked "totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class" is mad, I guess McKenzie doesn't pay much attention to the working class in London. Also, the idea FLAF looked like the DFLA is kind of insulting, on average FLAF's turnout was about 20-30 years younger than the DFLA's and considerably better dressed.

(edit: amended as per post below)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> It's amazing that a professional anthropologist can't recognise that cultural markers of class are fluid and change over time, the idea the Unity demo looked "totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class" is mad, I guess McKenzie doesn't pay much attention to the working class in London. Also, the idea FLAF looked like the DFLA is kind of insulting, on average FLAF's turnout was about 20-30 years younger than the DFLA's and considerably better dressed.


she's a sociologist, if it makes any difference


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> It's amazing that a professional anthropologist can't recognise that cultural markers of class are fluid and change over time, the idea the Unity demo looked "totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class" is mad, I guess McKenzie doesn't pay much attention to the working class in London. Also, the idea FLAF looked like the DFLA is kind of insulting, on average FLAF's turnout was about 20-30 years younger than the DFLA's and considerably better dressed.



Yes, it would be if that was her argument. But it isn’t. Lisa McKenzie’s point is about cultural ‘capital’ not signifiers. These are entirely separate things.


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Yes, it would be if that was her argument. But it isn’t. Lisa McKenzie’s point is about cultural ‘capital’ not signifiers. These are entirely separate things.


If it was about cultural capital then why does she talk about how they look?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> If it was about cultural capital then why does she talk about how they look?



I don’t know.

My guess is because she’s angry and pissed off about possessors of social and cultural capital and the disproportionate influence they wield on the left and what that means for pro working class politics?


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I don’t know.
> 
> My guess is because she’s angry and pissed off about possessors of social and cultural capital and the disproportionate influence they wield on the left and what that means for pro working class politics?


So you're just speculating about what she means to object to my criticism of something she's actually written? It's a totally fair point to say there are people with social and cultural capital who wield a disproportionate influence on the left, I'd probably include academics in that group myself. I didn't read her piece as making that point though (admittedly I read it quite late last night). I thought she was just having a pop at the AFN demo based on a weak understanding of class.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> So you're just speculating about what she means to object to my criticism of something she's actually written? It's a totally fair point to say there are people with social and cultural capital who wield a disproportionate influence on the left, I'd probably include academics in that group myself. I didn't read her piece as making that point though (admittedly I read it quite late last night). I thought she was just having a pop at the AFN demo based on a weak understanding of class.



No, I am speculating about why she briefly mentioned what the Unity demo looked like which is the question you asked. I’m very clear as to the central point she is making.


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> No, I am speculating about why she briefly mentioned what the Unity demo looked like which is the question you asked. I’m very clear as to the central point she is making.


Fair enough, I still think she's wrong to describe a genuinely diverse crowd as "looking totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class". The British working class, particularly in London is very diverse, it's not just white men.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

I’d add that academics are definitely part of that group. And I am sure you know the campaign of vilification they have subjected LM to upto and including trying to get her sacked


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

jimmer said:


> Fair enough, I still think she's wrong to describe a genuinely diverse crowd as "looking totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class". The British working class, particularly in London is very diverse, it's not just white men.



This is correct. But again, her point was about the class composition of those present - not their race or gender.


----------



## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is correct. But again, her point was about the class composition of those present - not their race or gender.


Yeah my point was she's wrong about the class composition of those present. She says it was "mostly white students" and I've got no idea where she got that from. I joined the demo towards the very end and most of the people I saw that I recognised have fairly standard working class jobs.


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2018)

Using Marx’s definition (selling your labour to capital) that net can be cast pretty widely to include doctors, and journalists.
Plus there’s people in ‘fairly standard working class jobs’ who also got their house bought for them by their wealthy parents.


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## jimmer (Oct 15, 2018)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Using Marx’s definition (selling your labour to capital) that net can be cast pretty widely to include doctors, and journalists.
> Plus there’s people in ‘fairly standard working class jobs’ who also got their house bought for them by their wealthy parents.


Very true, although I was leaving the journalist I know who I saw out of the people I saw with 'standard working class jobs' and the NHS worker I chatted with the longest was a nurse and neither have had homes bought for them by their parents. I don't really want to derail this thread with a discussion of how bad some bits of McKenzie's article were.

I hear FLAF held their own against a larger crew of West Ham and Spurs fans which bodes well for the future.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is correct. But again, her point was about the class composition of those present - not their race or gender.


How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2018)

emanymton said:


> How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?


the same way people usually estimate its size, by pure guesswork


----------



## sunnysidedown (Oct 15, 2018)

emanymton said:


> How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?



Ask a sociologist.


----------



## hot air baboon (Oct 15, 2018)

emanymton said:


> How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?



shout _*Coo-eeee Tarquin*_ and see how many people turn round


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

emanymton said:


> How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?



Perhaps by examining the stated politics and approach of those on the protest (which she does)? It is possible to understand something about the dominant class composition of a group without speaking to them all individually.

Have you got any comments on the wider point she makes?


----------



## emanymton (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Perhaps by examining the stated politics and approach of those on the protest (which she does)? It is possible to understand something about the dominant class composition of a group without speaking to them all individually.
> 
> Have you got any comments on the wider point she makes?


Is class determined by stated politics?


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## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

Fallon said:


>




Can you post the text so the rest of us can see what's what?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> Can you post the text so the rest of us can see what's what?



*Sunday, 14 October 2018*
British Fascism and the Fight for Working Class Politics: The Democratic Football Alliance March into Whitehall 

Context

I spent a beautiful warm, and balmy Saturday afternoon in mid October walking between Whitehall to Trafalgar Square in central London, with wide open eyes to the consequences of 8 years of austerity for the poorest, and socialism for those with economic, cultural and political power. What I mean by this is since the banking crash of 2008 there has been a scarcity of resources for the British working class, material but also the resources that are connected to dignity and respect. The British working class whether we like this or not have always found their value, their inner dignity and their wider sense of worth from family, community and work. The austerity programme that has hit all social services- relied on to maintain working class life in an already unfair and unequal system has been severely cut, working class people struggle to find a place to live, the consequences is a breakdown in their communities, they struggle to find work that offers enough recompense to feed their children and put a stable roof over the heads of their family, and lastly the very basics like healthcare, welfare services, and education have been cut to the bone which has a massive impact on not only the physical lives of the working class but also how they see themselves in relation to how they are valued. (When I talk about the working class for those ready to jump all over this and purposefully misrepresent this -I mean all working class people, black, white, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, South American, Eastern Europe, Western Europe and everywhere else but whose homes and lives are in the UK). 

At the same time the middle class have seen and advanced their role in this deeply unfair and unequal Britain and that is through the medium of politics, culture and education. It is true that the middle class under the austerity programme may have seen their incomes fall, and are also finding it difficult to get on the housing ladder but they have temporarily substituted their economic capital for cultural capital with a large slice of that as political capital. 

The middle class through holding on to their safe territory of education have managed to colonise all political debate from the left to the right and everywhere in between, they have become ‘right and legitimate’ in all social, and political debate. This is problematic because it has left the working class has wrong as default and therefore must prove how they are ‘right’ but also how their voices can be legitimate. This has left them bound and gagged. 

The middle class use the notion of the 1% to explain inequality and an unfair system however this allows them to be uncritical about their own position. Allowing them to be in a unique advantage point they can look up and point the finger of blame and look down and either despise, blame or create victims for them to save. 

Back to London 13th October 2018

I anticipated as I travelled to Charing Cross on the Northern Line another day of a couple of hundred people on two sides of an argument insulting each other over a thin blue line of coppers who are now a thin yellow high Vis line. 

To some extents this is what I saw, but I felt unsettled all day, and have since. We are not in the 1970s and the 1980s, the DFLA (Democratic Football Lads Alliance) are not the National Front and they are not fascists, my comrade Martin Wright who I was with recognised some of the people marching with the DFLA from the 70s and 80s who had been part of the National Front, the BNP, and other far right and fascists groups but they were a minority. What unsettled me was that a majority of those marching yesterday with the DFLA where there for many reasons, and I spoke to them why they were there, some said it was Pakistani rape gangs, others about Muslim terrorism and extremism, all of them talked about their fears of Shariah law. There was and is a definite anti-Islamic flavour in their words, however there was also a recognition that as working class people (which they identified as) that they were unimportant, their views ignored and their identities, communities and social positions were being devalued. 

None of this new news, and my fear and what unsettled me the most was not the thousand or so ‘activists’ on the DFLA march but how this plays out in the wider country and within class politics. 

The AntiFa Unity Opposition

The Unite and AntiFa opposition has claimed victory, in that a little over a thousand people turned up and prevented the DFLA in marching on their police agreed and designated route to Whitehall to hold a rally. When I saw the two groups converge at Trafalgar Square there was nowhere near a thousand people in the Unity March a few hundred that I have to say showed a commitment and bravery in holding to their convictions of the day, despite being asked by the organisers to not mask up, bring their dogs (on strings) be hung-over or to drink on the march, all of which I thought was bizarre, and my message to the organisers that put out this memo in future join the Unite Against Fascism, SWP, TUC, Labour Party and Momentum along with the reporting Guardian Journalists at their village fair- that was out of sight and out of mind speaking only to themselves, their irrelevance is not worth any more discussion. 

The Unity march although admittedly had a small victory delaying the DFLA march on the day but actually looked totally unconnected and unrelated to the British working class, they were mostly white students, singing out-dated and generic unrelated ditties about keeping fascists off our streets, and refugees being welcome. 

The Football Lads and Lasses Against Fascism 

However there was some hope within this day that had totally unsettled me, and that was the newly set up group of working class people FLAF that had used a social media campaign to make the argument to other working class people in the last few weeks that you can be working class, a football supporter and anti-racist. The FLAF formed their own roaming group going straight to the pubs along the route and confronted the DLAF. This was a tactic taken straight from Football Firms (remember those on the march forming the DLAF are already organised and have been for generations through their football firms, they use tactics of taking over space using their oppositions pubs, they spread themselves out over a large territory using their own spotters, and crews, I know this I was married to someone that employed these tactics in his own support for his beloved Nottingham Forest). 

The DLAF appeared as a group on their march as a thousand mostly white men, although there was also black men, mixed race men and Asian men amongst their ranks, however there was probably another thousand in the pubs along the route. At the end of the march some of the DLAF carried rosettes and flower arrangements in their club colours mostly London Football clubs. 

The FLLAF looked like their opponents they were working class men, football supporters and understood and knew the tactics, they took the fight to the DLAF in the pubs but the police very quickly moved them out of the area with horses.

Concluding

The day was personally unsettling for me, because I am a white working class woman, because I have personal connections to ‘Football lads’, and to working class people all over the country that relate to DFLA and because my son is mixed race and many other people that I love dearly through a rise in far right politics are now vulnerable.

But the 13th October 2018 around Trafalgar was a set piece, a show piece in what is a wider game being played out in the country and probably much wider. The left are smug, middle class, and always right, this is a problem and is absolutely fuelling conservative right leaning popular politics (UAF, Momentum, SWP, Owen Jones et al and Novara Media you are really problematic but too arrogant to acknowledge it). 

There is a wide, deep, pervasive and long problem with the British class system that reproduces inequality in the forms of economic, social and cultural resources; the current climate in the UK is a battle in how we acknowledge that inequality and how we tackle that inequality. The working class are losing and losing big in so many ways our voices are not being heard in any medium and the middle class are speaking for us, this is allowing right wing populism to totally ambush these feelings and experiences of powerlessness. Everyone may be claiming victory but only the usual suspects are winning, and that is those who already have a voice, a platform and power on all sides.


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> *Sunday, 14 October 2018*
> British Fascism and the Fight for Working Class Politics: The Democratic Football Alliance March into Whitehall
> 
> Context
> ...



Thanks. Pretty much Lisa McKenzie by numbers. Doesn't write all that coherently for an academic.


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## rekil (Oct 15, 2018)

Lisa MacKenzie of the working class fortress that is *checks notes* the London School Of Economics.


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## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

copliker said:


> Lisa MacKenzie of the working class fortress that is *checks notes* the London School Of Economics.




She is literally the most working classiest person there has ever been.


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## eoin_k (Oct 15, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Perhaps by examining the stated politics and approach of those on the protest (which she does)?
> ...



Lisa doesn't really do that though. She invites the organisers to stand in a static kettle with SUTR over the wording of a memo that was supposedly sent out. I'm not familiar with the details of this, but even her version hardly map clearly onto class politics. Dogs (on strings) sounds like a cliché about lifestyle anarchist subculture, and the biggest differences in attitudes to alcohol these days seem to be intergenerational. None of which is meant as a full defence of a memo (?) I've never seen.

She backtracks on this to some extent whenever organisers have challenged her in the comments, although I can't read all of these anymore. (Not sure if some have been deleted or if this is to do with privacy settings and using a different computer.)

Otherwise, the only reference she makes to the demo is about some of the chants. I think there is probably room for both disagreement and lessons to be learned about this. Off the top of my head, I know people descended from Kurdish, Jewish and Spanish refugees who were on the block, and others who have had more than their fair share of visa issues to remain in this country, or have concerns about how Brexit will affect their rights somewhere that they have lived for as long as they can remember. Perhaps, they don't hear the expressions of solidarity with migrants as quite so irrelevant to the current rise of right-wing populism. That said, it shouldn't be taken for granted that everyone on the block agreed with the tone of every chant, or that anyone was or should be in overall control of everything chanted for that matter.

None of this is to suggest that criticism from her viewpoint should be unwelcome. But this needs to go beyond inaccurately dismissing the entire block as a homogenous group of white middle-class students. A bit of consideration about how to do this less divisively might not go amiss either, unless we're all happy that the Football Lads (and Lasses) have got this all in hand without the need for anyone else to get their hands dirty. Everyone I've spoken to has been more than happy to see the emergence of FLAF. Before this report the consensus on here seemed to include a degree of respect for the block, however grudging.


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 15, 2018)

copliker said:


> Lisa MacKenzie of the working class fortress that is *checks notes* the London School Of Economics.



Think she’s at Middlesex University now.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 15, 2018)

emanymton said:


> How do you tell the class composition of a protest by looking at it?


The same way you can tell papers like the Sun etc are written by working class journalists with the right patter... oh wait...

We're back to "working class as an identity" are we not?


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## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

Serge Forward said:


> The same way you can tell papers like the Sun etc are written by working class journalists with the right patter... oh wait...
> 
> We're back to "working class as an identity" are we not?



IdProle


----------



## Signal 11 (Oct 15, 2018)

eoin_k said:


> She invites the organisers to stand in a static kettle with SUTR over the wording of a memo that was supposedly sent out.



I think this is the memo. It doesn't say anything about masking up but does have the other things she mentions.



Spoiler: screenshot


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2018)

It has a very parenting tone.


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## Red Sky (Oct 15, 2018)

Packed lunch? Ffs


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## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2018)

Dress warmly. It’s like everyone attending are aged twelve.


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## Shechemite (Oct 16, 2018)

My eyesights fucked - at first reading I thought that said ‘don’t spliff up’


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## Fallon (Oct 16, 2018)




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## albionism (Oct 16, 2018)

So, erm, what's going to happen if a group of, say, West Ham FLAF
run into a group of West Ham DFLA on a demo?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2018)

albionism said:


> So, erm, what's going to happen if a group of, say, West Ham FLAF
> run into a group of West Ham DFLA on a demo?


A load of claret all over the pavement


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## xarmian (Oct 16, 2018)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The STUR lot were on the static demo just north of Parliament Square. The front of the "unity demo" was all antifascist feminists.


Bit more about that from @libcom and @sisyphusa replying on the their thread


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## JuanTwoThree (Oct 16, 2018)

Smokeandsteam said:


> We are not in the 1970s and the 1980s, the DFLA (Democratic Football Lads Alliance) are not the National Front and they are not fascists, my comrade Martin Wright who I was with recognised some of the people marching with the DFLA from the 70s and 80s who had been part of the National Front, the BNP, and other far right and fascists groups but they were a minority. What unsettled me was that a majority of those marching yesterday with the DFLA where there for many reasons, and I spoke to them why they were there, some said it was Pakistani rape gangs, others about Muslim terrorism and extremism, all of them talked about their fears of Shariah law. There was and is a definite anti-Islamic flavour in their words, however there was also a recognition that as working class people (which they identified as) that they were unimportant, their views ignored and their identities, communities and social positions were being devalued.



I'm puzzled  why this is any different from other times the far-right has had more than the hard-core support it always has. It's hardly a new phenomenon; in a sense you are in the 70s and 80s, or plenty of other times in history, if people are again supporting fascists without being fascists themselves.


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## JuanTwoThree (Oct 16, 2018)

The DFLA not the NF? It waddles like a duck.



Spoiler: Fascistic image


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

albionism said:


> So, erm, what's going to happen if a group of, say, West Ham FLAF
> run into a group of West Ham DFLA on a demo?


Have a guess, cause you obviously do not understand football lads and lasses culture.


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I'm puzzled  why this is any different from other times the far-right has had more than the hard-core support it always has. It's hardly a new phenomenon; in a sense you are in the 70s and 80s, or plenty of other times in history, if people are again supporting fascists without being fascists themselves.


Well back in the day there were many more typical working class people on anti fascist demos and far less student types and certainly no ninjas. Not a criticism of you comment just a learned reply. Us chavs, lowlifes working class types have been discarded by many clever leftie types and the obvious place to gravitate to is the right. There is a disconnect with the average working class person, often our language, social structures and habits are unsettling for the more gentile younger university types.


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> more gentile younger university types.


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

By the way what has happened to the clapton clowns did not see one of them around on Saturday. I guess they have got over their rebellious stage and moved onto their next project.


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


>


Yep unfortunately that is an easy way to tell them apart. Quite happy and open to work with them at demos but some of them do really struggle with us.


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## SpackleFrog (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Yep unfortunately that is an easy way to tell them apart. Quite happy and open to work with them at demos but some of them do really struggle with us.



Do you feel that the left has issues with anti semitism that are having a negative impact on building an effective opposition to the far right..?


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Do you feel that the left has issues with anti semitism that are having a negative impact on building an effective opposition to the far right..?


No


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

SpackleFrog said:


> Do you feel that the left has issues with anti semitism that are having a negative impact on building an effective opposition to the far right..?


Do you think it is a problem then? ps we had Jewish lads within the flaf group on saturday


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## albionism (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Have a guess, cause you obviously do not understand football lads and lasses culture.


Yeah, i do. I'm just messing. It'l be interesting what might potentially start happening at the football grounds though.Hopefully FLAF will drive the far-right elements out of it.


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## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Well back in the day there were many more typical working class people on anti fascist demos and far less student types and certainly no ninjas. Not a criticism of you comment just a learned reply. Us chavs, lowlifes working class types have been discarded by many clever leftie types and the obvious place to gravitate to is the right. There is a disconnect with the average working class person, often our language, social structures and habits are unsettling for the more gentile younger university types.


There may or may not be a little confusion about what you meant by gentile.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 16, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> There may or may not be a little confusion about what you meant by gentile.


----------



## eoin_k (Oct 16, 2018)

Queue post from Vidal Sassoon about how this wasn't a problem back in his day, while bemoaning the scruffy 'hairstyles' on display last Saturday...


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## The Flying Pig (Oct 16, 2018)

The39thStep said:


> There may or may not be a little confusion about what you meant by gentile.


Ooops. Only four of the people from my school made the dizzy heights of university, for the rest it was the military services, apprenticeships(for the lucky few), some got office jobs and for the rest of us it was naff labouring type jobs hence : I meant to write they are more genteel.


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## The39thStep (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Ooops. Only four of the people from my school made the dizzy heights of university, for the rest it was the military services, apprenticeships(for the lucky few), some got office jobs and for the rest of us it was naff labouring type jobs hence : I meant to write they are more genteel.


I thought that was the case


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## xarmian (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Ooops. Only four of the people from my school made the dizzy heights of university, for the rest it was the military services, apprenticeships(for the lucky few), some got office jobs and for the rest of us it was naff labouring type jobs hence : I meant to write they are more genteel.


A much higher proportion of people go to university now. You have to do a degree to be a police officer. Nurses too. Those "lucky few" who went into office jobs now need a degree to work in a call centre. Forcing them into debt for jobs that don't exist doesn't make them posh.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Oct 16, 2018)

The Flying Pig said:


> Ooops. Only four of the people from my school made the dizzy heights of university, for the rest it was the military services, apprenticeships(for the lucky few), some got office jobs and for the rest of us it was naff labouring type jobs hence : I meant to write they are more genteel.



Sorry mate, couldn't help mesen.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2018)

Ill post this in the German elections thread as well but it might get more reads here. This is a study of conversations with residents in the Front National and AfD strongholds
http://www.progressives-zentrum.org...e_Das-Progressive-Zentrum_Johannes-Hillje.pdf


----------



## Fallon (Oct 21, 2018)

Britain´s Antifa Ultras vs. Football´s Fascist Revival


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2018)

The DFLA have been trying bask in the glory that they had two Muslim women holding the Justice for Families and Children banner on their march. Apparantly what happened is that there was a group of tourists on the pavement and one of the DFLA women waved at them to come and join them. Two women did , their mates took pictures and then they left the march. The DFLA have also now added the Windrush generation to their list of injustices .


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2018)

This makes the Marie Celeste look like an Ibiza boat party but at 24.04 they talk about FLAF and come up with the conclusion that they are "a direct ploy to oppose us in our own arena"
and its worth listening to the comedy gold line at 34.00 "In the early hours of Sunday, when I'm on my own, I had a little thought, well many thoughts"


----------



## albionism (Oct 22, 2018)

They look hungover to fuckery.Who the fuck do they think is going to sit through 41 minutes of utter cack?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 23, 2018)

albionism said:


> They look hungover to fuckery.Who the fuck do they think is going to sit through 41 minutes of utter cack?


I thought excatly the same after 41 minutes. The pub where it was filmed has disassociated itself from the video.


----------



## justin credible (Oct 25, 2018)

The DFLA infiltrating the CSA/CSE survivor movement


This group, Voicing CSA, has links to "paedophile hunter" groups.



This man, Daniel Wolstencroft, claims to be a CSA survivor and he promotes Voicing CSA and Dark Light paedophile hunters via his social networking sites.


I cannot comment on the veracity of his claims but he was in therapy with a highly dubious group called Survivors Manchester, they use dubious quack therapies that can generate false memories.

In the below link Survivors Manchester promote a notoriously abusive organisation known to promote hoaxes via the generation of false memories of CSA and  satanic ritual abuse in vulnerable people and to commit insurance fraud, the ISSTD.  They also promote other highly dubious and controversial organisations that promote SRA and DID/MPD hoaxes, First Person Plural and PODS online.

text from the linked page:

"The International Society for the Study of Trauma and Dissociation provide guidelines for the treatment of DID; our colleagues over at First Person Plural offer support and information to DID survivors of sexual abuse; and our friends over at PODS (Supporters of Dissociative Survivors) offer support to partners or family members of people who suffer from a Dissociative Disorder.

For further information, click on the links below.

ISSTD seeks to advance clinical, scientific, and societal understanding about the prevalence and consequences of chronic trauma and dissociation."
Dissociation - Survivors Manchester

Excellent non-recent video regarding the fraudulent, abusive activities at the ISSTD
Highly recommended


More Lee Williams



I think that most people who have been paying attention understand that SRA hoaxes such as Pizzagate influenced the US elections.  People may not yet grasped that such hoaxes are being used to undermine democracies globally including in the UK


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 27, 2018)

It appears Wrexham casuals/FLAF turned over Generation ID in Wrexham today


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 29, 2018)

FLAF now have more followers on Twitter than the DFLA, so if you are on Twitter give them a follow and show support


----------



## heebyjeeby (Nov 2, 2018)

so this is really just football hooliganism but instead of rival firms fighting it out you now have one side pretending to be saving the white race and the other who thinks they are fighting the Spanish civil war.

Larpers all


----------



## Athos (Nov 2, 2018)

All as bad as each other etc., etc.


----------



## Athos (Nov 2, 2018)

Because who could have any interest in keeping fascists out of our communities except football hooligans who think they're in the Spanish Civil War?


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Nov 2, 2018)

Christ, it's come to something when those willing to risk their teeth and liberty are referred to by do-nothing trolls as "larpers".


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 2, 2018)

I've got mates who've got FLAF badges and support them who wouldnt even know that the Spanish Civil war had ever happened tbh. They just dont like bigots


----------



## Ho Chi Ming (Nov 2, 2018)

How dare they take to the streets without a full and thorough understanding of early 20th century political history.  Bloody hooligans pretending they know right from wrong.


----------



## friedaweed (Nov 2, 2018)

gawkrodger said:


> It appears *Wrexham casuals*/FLAF turned over Generation ID in Wrexham today


Shouldn't that be Wrexham Front-line?


----------



## Fallon (Nov 2, 2018)




----------



## Libertad (Nov 3, 2018)

heebyjeeby said:


> so this is really just football hooliganism but instead of rival firms fighting it out you now have one side pretending to be saving the white race and the other who thinks they are fighting the Spanish civil war.
> 
> Larpers all



What's your game then sunshine?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2018)

Libertad said:


> What's your game then sunshine?


Sure this isn't the first time auld heebyjeeby has honoured us with his presence


----------



## Libertad (Nov 3, 2018)

Aaah, gissa clue then.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 3, 2018)

Fallon said:


>



patriots didn't get out of the station and had to be escorted
apols for link


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 4, 2018)

How not to fight the far right......



> LEWISHAM LABOUR AGAINST RACISM PUBLIC MEETING
> 
> CHALLENGING THE HOSTILE ENVIRONMENT
> STOP TOMMY ROBINSON’S FAR RIGHT ALLIES AND THE RACIST DEMOCRATIC FOOTBALL LADS ALLIANCE
> ...



Shakeel Begg lost a court case against the BBC where he was accused of being an Islamic extremist, supported freedom of speech for the fascist Hizb ut-Tahrir, says the veil is not a negotiable subject, and his mosque hosted Abu Zubair a prominent Wahhabi preacher who stated that in his opinion it was  permissible to execute the  imam of an east London mosque for expressing his views on evolution and women's right to refuse the veil.


----------



## Poi E (Nov 5, 2018)

Last Labour government launched wars causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands. Sounds like it's a perfect platform for rogues.


----------



## The39thStep (Nov 18, 2018)

Apparantly SYL turned up for a 'reunion' at Lutons ground. He was on a live feed confidently about to give it the big one about '4 lads turning up with a banner against the DFLA' and then had what could be best desribed as a , well as a reunion shouting 'wheres my bodyguards'


----------



## Fallon (Nov 20, 2018)

When ‘Tommy’ came back to Luton Town – Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism


----------



## ManchesterBeth (Nov 20, 2018)

Red Sky said:


> IdProle



Brilliant


----------



## Fallon (Dec 13, 2018)

Very impressed with the website. Some excellent work from a relatively new group. Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism – For a United Working Class


----------



## Patteran (Jan 12, 2019)

FLAF contingent from Mcr & Merseyside out in Mcr today alongside trades unionists & associated anti fascists, supporting the RMT picket that came under pressure from reactionary elements last week, & was under threat again this week. No show from the dodge pots today, but there will undoubtedly be further incidents as both pickets & yellow vests protests continue in Mcr, Liverpool & Leeds.


----------



## Fallon (Jan 16, 2019)

Interview : 0161 Manchester Anti-Fascists – Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism

Pretty good interview.


----------



## krink (Mar 14, 2019)

can someone who is involved in flaf please send me a pm ta

(asking on behalf of some football friends of mine)


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 16, 2019)

krink said:


> can someone who is involved in flaf please send me a pm ta
> 
> (asking on behalf of some football friends of mine)


did you get a reply from anyone?


----------



## krink (Mar 16, 2019)

The39thStep said:


> did you get a reply from anyone?


yes mate, cheers


----------



## Fallon (Mar 23, 2019)

This is a brief eye-witness report from #FLAF Scotland's perspective about what happened in Edinburgh on the anti-SDL demo today. 

We met in a bar close to their assembly point to discuss our tactics. We decided to try and take their assembly point.

We got there just before 1pm. There was a few of them there and we put them in their place with them asking for police protection. The police were oblivious to who we were.

After taking the assembly point the OB split the SDL up into separate groups with 15 of them getting to their assembly point later on, after we were moved on.

Another group of younger FLAF got close to the other SDL group and really noised them up. With them complaining that 'anti are everywhere' and looking for the police to protect them. We'd got in their faces.

When they eventually got to the parliament there was 25 of them with Combat 18 and NF banners on display. 

Anti fascists are buoyed up after the experience and we had FLAF from #Celtic, #Falkirk, #Hibs, #Motherwell, as well as individuals from other clubs, bonding together afterwards & committed to building FLAF at all clubs in #Scotland. More details to follow. 

* Acknowledgements also the other militant anti-fascists that we met in Edinburgh today. For A United Working Class Against Fascism. #NoPasaran


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 23, 2019)

Fallon said:


> This is a brief eye-witness report from #FLAF Scotland's perspective about what happened in Edinburgh on the anti-SDL demo today.
> 
> We met in a bar close to their assembly point to discuss our tactics. We decided to try and take their assembly point.
> 
> ...


Well done . For all their talk they are spineless bastards


----------



## M Testa (Mar 25, 2019)

yeah great day out. congrats to all. and yes, they are spineless. they are always surrounded by plod for their own protection.


----------



## treelover (Mar 25, 2019)

Have you been to Birmingham to protest against the bigots there, allies needed there.


----------



## Fallon (Apr 16, 2019)

I see Siptu trade union in Ireland are advertising FLAF speaking at an event soon. Looks interesting.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 21, 2019)

Piece on BBC about FLAF/DFLA

The Football Lads Tackling Extremism

What a pity when the FLAF guy was asked if he had anything in common with the DFLA guys he said no, opportunity missed really. Could have answered along the lines of ‘we both recognise there are a lot of problems with the country and want to fight for a better world, but the far right just seek to divide us, and a divided working class will never achieve success’. No harm in reaching out.


----------



## Fallon (Oct 7, 2019)

Thought this might be suitable for here...

A Working Class Catwalk


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 8, 2019)

Fallon said:


> Thought this might be suitable for here...
> 
> A Working Class Catwalk


Bugger just posted this in youth subcultures. It’s a great read.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 12, 2019)

Fallon said:


> Thought this might be suitable for here...
> 
> A Working Class Catwalk


Mate of mine in a couple of those pics. Mind you, he gets everywhere these days


----------



## Fallon (Nov 12, 2019)

Copied from their social media:

Two of our friends were in court on Monday for their alleged activities in Bootle during the European Election. Luckily, they both avoided prison & community service orders. The fines were for £180 & £230. We would like to help them if we can.

You can donate via Paypal to: footballagainstfascism@gmail.com

Bank Pay-in Details:

Payee: Lads & Lasses

Account No: 67867737

Sort Code: 08-71-99

* One of the lads is mixed race & the other is from an Asian background. Both were racially abused as 'N-word' and 'P*ki' before they responded.


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## TopCat (Dec 22, 2019)

Fallon said:


> Copied from their social media:
> 
> Two of our friends were in court on Monday for their alleged activities in Bootle during the European Election. Luckily, they both avoided prison & community service orders. The fines were for £180 & £230. We would like to help them if we can.
> 
> ...


im drunken. i will donate when i am sober


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## Nigel (Dec 22, 2019)

Solidarity
Donate in the new year !


----------



## TopCat (Dec 22, 2019)

solidarity is something that we have less off than in my whole life. but i will donate.


----------



## Fallon (Oct 31, 2020)

On the 31st October a gathering of neo-Nazis in SevenOaks, Kent was confronted and smashed by #FLAF, London Antifascists and others.

During 2020 a new party has emerged on the far-right, Patriotic Alternative. Founded and led by former members of the BNP, its ideology includes the repatriation of non-whites as well as heavy doses of anti Semitic conspiracy. A key part of their strategy for growth is hosting hikes and outings with a view to radicalising and organising fascists and bringing people from online into real life activism.

It was at one of these jolly jaunts in the countryside that a firm of twenty FLAF and a similar number of other like-minded folk decided to throw a spanner in their works. PA’s hapless regional organiser and his pals were left strewn on the floor; battered, outgunned and utterly humiliated. What was supposed to be a scene from Country Living ended up more like Stalingrad (with the Nazis losing again!).

FLAF was formed to counteract attempts by the far-right to hijack our sport for their own ideology and football will always remain our primary focus. However, we remember the BNP and many of us remember the National Front and we’ll be damned if we will allow a bunch of would-be Hipster Hitlers to rebuild a neo-Nazi party in Britain. Not on our watch. We are fully prepared to tackle fascism wherever it tries to gain a foothold.

Today was a warning, Patriotic Alternative and their mates are put on notice. Expect us


----------



## Nigel (Nov 1, 2020)

Good Work !


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 18, 2020)

The Rich Legacy of ‘Antifa’ in Wales: How the protests of the past have shaped Wales today — VOICE.WALES
					






					www.voice.wales
				




*IN THE LAST MONTH, BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS HAVE SPREAD TO EVERY CORNER OF WALES, WITH THOUSANDS MOBILISING TO TAKE A STAND AGAINST STRUCTURAL RACISM. YET WALES HAS A RICH HISTORY WHEN IT COMES TO PROTEST, PARTICULARLY ANTI-FASCISM, YET IT IS ONE - OF MANY HISTORIES - LEFT OUT OF SCHOOL CURRICULA. GLYN OWEN WEAVES TOGETHER A VIBRANT TAPESTRY OF WALES’ PAST AND THE LEGACY OF ANTIFA IN WALES...*


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)




----------



## Fallon (May 27, 2021)

New t-shirt from Calton Books in Glasgow. 









						Subbuteo FLAF t-shirt
					

UNITED WORKING CLASS, radical, bookshop, books, clothing, flags, , Anarchist, Irish Republican, Marxist, Communist, Socialist, Enviroment,




					www.calton-books.co.uk


----------



## Fallon (Jul 11, 2021)

ENGLAND BELONGS TO US

By Jim – London FLAF [Leeds & England fan]

For many on the left, supporting the England football side hasn’t been easy. Particularly in the years when following England away was associated with football violence and the far-right. I haven’t always found it easy either, having been born in a different country. The year I attended my first England game was 1995, the same year neo-Nazi gang Combat 18 started a riot among England fans at Landsowne Road in Dublin. My school had been offered tickets for a game against Switzerland and a load of kids from my class went.

The following year, Euro ‘96 was hosted in England. “Football’s Coming Home” was sung everywhere, at games, in playgrounds and homes. Adapted to a chant, this gave us a way to express our support for the side without expressing nationalistic or jingoistic sentiments.

I only managed to get tickets for one game, but having been in the third row at the end Gazza scored his goal against Scotland is a memory I’ll treasure for the rest of my life. The rest of the matches I watched with school friends. Even though we supported different clubs, supporting England gave us a way of watching football where we could all share in the highs and lows of the same team. I still talk to those friends about England, 25 years on.

When I first got involved in the left in the early ’00s there was a pressure not to support the England team, to adopt the ‘Anyone But England (ABE)’ position which comes so easily to our Irish, Scottish and Welsh friends and comrades. But I was lucky enough to meet some anarchists through anti-fascism who supported England in football, partly out of not wanting to totally concede that cultural space to the right, but also because we had all grown up supporting the team and because watching international football together is an enjoyable experience [especially when we’re winning].

Around that time, British National Party (BNP) youth leader Mark Collett appeared in a documentary with Russell Brand, appropriately called “Naziboy”, which was filmed during the 2002 World Cup. In one scene, Brand accompanies Collett to a pub to watch the England vs Argentina group game. Collett is filmed knocking back pints of Carling, going on racist and homophobic diatribes before the game, then watching the match closely, celebrating Beckham’s penalty and then closely clutching his skinhead friend when England won.

Back then the British far right were still closely associated with supporting England. But since then, things have been changing. The BNP rose, fell and is now irrelevant. The EDL went through the same processes, introducing an estimated 35,000 people to far-right street politics and plenty of anti-fascists to the chant “You’re Not English Anymore”. But as all this was happening, the ability of the far right to organise at football was gradually fading away. 

Campaigns to drive fascists out of football, like Leeds Fans United Against Racism and Fascism, which were set up in the 80s found some success in the 90s. Those grassroots campaigns coincided with the launch of the Premier League in 1992, the release of Fever Pitch that year, which contributed to opening up of the game to the middle-classes, and the launch of ‘Let’s Kick Racism Out of Football’ the following year, which was supported and funded by the game’s governing bodies. Racism was becoming unacceptable at football.

None of those developments have ended racism at football. It might be less common in stadiums, although anybody who goes to games regularly will be able to tell you of occasions they’ve heard racist abuse, but social media has made it happen 24/7. Racist fans don’t even need to go to matches to abuse players, they can just open an app and tweet their abuse directly onto the phones of the players they’re trying to harass. But this technological shift has happened after decades of struggle against racism in football.

These past struggles have empowered players to stand up for themselves, but one of the main reasons has simply been a refusal to accept racist treatment. There was a racist attack on Raheem Sterling outside his training ground in December 2017, the following year he started to speak out, criticising the media for the role they play in stoking racism. This appears to have been the start of the England team publicly opposing racism. By the time of the October 2019 away game in Bulgaria, the team were openly saying they might walk off the pitch if they suffered racist abuse. During the game, they very nearly did and the travelling fans chanted “You racist bastards, you know what you are” at the Bulgarian fans.



George Floyd was murdered in Minneapolis in May 2020, which sparked the latest wave of the global Black Lives Matter (BLM) anti-racism movement, many of the black players in the England side expressed their support for the movement. Leeds United’s Kalvin Phillips wrote an opinion piece for the club’s website encouraging fans to support BLM, other players used their social media accounts and media profiles to throw their backing behind BLM. But a lot of this happened while football was suspended because of the pandemic.

When football returned, with games being held in empty stadiums, nearly every level of English football saw players take the knee in solidarity with the BLM movement. This continued through the pandemic and when England’s players met ahead of their September 2020 game against Iceland, they decided they would take the knee, as they had been doing in their domestic games, and continue expressing this solidarity in empty grounds.

At the start of December fans were allowed back into some stadiums. This gave racist fans at a handful of clubs the opportunity to boo players taking the knee. At a time when culture wars are being pushed by the ruling class and dividing working class communities, this should come as little surprise. It also gave some of the ruling class politicians who are keenly trying to push culture war narratives an opportunity to portray a minority of racist football fans as being broadly representative of working class concerns about anti-racism.

When England played two friendlies ahead of the Euros in Middlesbrough, this was the first time they had played in front of a crowd since the start of the pandemic and the first opportunity for any England fans to register their opposition to players taking the knee. Inevitably a minority of fans booed when the players took the knee and this was keenly reported on by the media, looking for a controversial story ahead of the Euros. Ahead of Euro ‘96 it was the England players and the dentist’s chair, today it’s players being ‘woke’.

The right-wing of the Tories and Farage hubristically decided to attack the England team for taking the knee, accusing them of endorsing a Marxist organisation. These were rugby types who thought England would get knocked out early in the tournament and when this happened they could claim it was because the players alienated the fans by taking the knee. A political gamble made by people who aren’t football people and underestimated the team.

Tory MP Lee Anderson hasn’t watched any of the England games this tournament because the players are taking the knee. Prime Minister Boris Johnson and Home Secretary Priti Patel both publicly defended the minority of racist fans who were booing the players anti-racist gesture, putting themselves at odds with the team and the majority of the country.

Former BNP youth leader Mark Collett – who was filmed supporting England in World Cup 2002 – and leads a new fascist party called Patriotic Alternative, now actively wants England to lose. Collett has said on a number of livestreams recently that he no longer supports the England team because half of them aren’t white and he instead wanted “Russia or Hungary or the Czech Republic” to win the Euros which he claimed would be “absolutely fantastic”.

A lot of British racists don’t feel they can support the current England team. Which is great, these people need to be alienated from football grounds.

It’s going to be funny watching Marcus Rashford and the rest of the “woke babies” saunter into Downing Street for the inevitable post-tournament reception, however the final goes, their performances in this tournament have done enough that all the politicians who criticised the team for their passion for social justice ahead of the tournament will now be desperate to try and bask in the collective glory the players have earnt for themselves.

When the England and German players took the knee ahead of their memorable round-of-16 clash last week, England captain Harry Kane was wearing a rainbow flag armband in solidarity with the LGBT community ahead of Pride Month. This was because the German captain Manuel Neuer had been wearing such an armband all tournament and been investigated by UEFA. After the game Liverpool captain Jordan Henderson tweeted his support and has since worn rainbow laces. These might just be gestures but coming from such prominent players they speak volumes and show how much society is changing.

There’s one thing which has become clear to every England fan who has ever opposed racism, opposed homophobia and fought for a better world. This England side belongs to us.





__





						England Belongs To Us – Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism
					






					flaf.org.uk


----------



## editor (Jul 11, 2021)

Fallon said:


> ENGLAND BELONGS TO US
> 
> By Jim – London FLAF [Leeds & England fan]
> 
> ...



The players and manager are certainly trying but there's a bit of a reality-shifting, rosy tint in that article 









						Revealed: shocking scale of Twitter abuse targeting England at Euro 2020
					

Exclusive: over 2,000 abusive posts directed towards footballers during games, including scores of racist messages




					www.theguardian.com
				









__





						Fans ‘boo the knee’ but England will continue anti-racism stance | The Week UK
					

Gareth Southgate says the Three Lions are ‘more determined than ever’ to take the knee



					www.theweek.co.uk


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jul 12, 2021)

editor said:


> The players and manager are certainly trying but there's a bit of a reality-shifting, rosy tint in that article
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just to put that in perspective - that Guardian article talks about 44 explicitly racist tweets, and 58 criticising players for taking the knee/anti racist actions. 

Just under 31,000,000 people in the UK watched the final last night.

Its notable that those booing the knee have been drowned out by everyone else as well as the tournament has progressed. 

I can see how that article might seem just a little rose tinted, and of course even one incident of racist abuse is one too many. But I do agree that attitudes among England fans as a whole have shifted a lot in the last decade or so. 

It's worth remembering as well that people sending tweets are not necessarily watching games in public or attending games. People might remember the disgusting Chelsea fans a few years ago convicted of racially abusing a black man on the Paris metro. It turned out some of them had already been banned from attending games in the UK.


----------



## editor (Jul 12, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Just to put that in perspective - that Guardian article talks about 44 explicitly racist tweets, and 58 criticising players for taking the knee/anti racist actions.


I don't think you appreciate how widespread the racist abuse was. 









						Outrage After Bukayo Saka’s Instagram Is Flooded With Racist Abuse
					

<p>Fans have rallied behind Bukayo Saka after his Instagram account was flooded with racist abuse in the wake of England’s Euros defeat.  England’s historic tournament came to a heartbreaking close last night. While Luke Shaw’s early goal showed promise for the final, Italy eventually equalised...




					www.unilad.co.uk


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 12, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Just to put that in perspective - that Guardian article talks about 44 explicitly racist tweets, and 58 criticising players for taking the knee/anti racist actions.
> 
> Just under 31,000,000 people in the UK watched the final last night.
> 
> ...


Don’t forget that there are also paid trolls out there stirring the culture war pot in order to divide/weaken societies, so the racism may in some cases be a performance rather than a genuine belief (though I guess from the receiving end it makes no difference).


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 12, 2021)

editor said:


> The players and manager are certainly trying but there's a bit of a reality-shifting, rosy tint in that article
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think the people , like FLAF , on the ground doing the actual work at clubs and actually confronting groups like the FLA and others are in a slightly better position to judge what’s rosy tinted or not tbh . I don’t think they are under any illusions as to the scale of the problem .


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think the people , like FLAF , on the ground doing the actual work at clubs and actually confronting groups like the FLA and others are in a slightly better position to judge what’s rosy tinted or not tbh . I don’t think they are under any illusions as to the scale of the problem .


Oh right. So anything they post up has to be taken as total facts and can not be challenged, because only they really know what's going on. 

Right you are., then. There's clearly no point contributing any other opinions or viewpoints to this thread.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh right. So anything they post up has to be taken as total facts and can not be challenged, because only they really know what's going on.
> 
> Right you are., then. There's clearly no point contributing any other opinions or viewpoints to this thread.


?


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 13, 2021)

The complicated reasoning some offer to explain the upsurge in footy violence and racist shit amuses me. It's quite simple. It's cocaine. The same twats yelling racist shit at matches and generally being the Eng-ger-lund arsehole embarrassments that they are will be the same twats buying heavily cut cocaine and sniffing it on match day to enable them to consume more Stella than they can normally tolerate. The bright side of this is of course that many will die from heart related illnesses earlier than expected.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 13, 2021)

My local MP Natalie Elphicke said the following about Marcus Rashford yesterday: "They lost -would it be ungenerous to suggest Rashford should have spent more time perfecting his game and less time playing politics."

Just the sort of utterance that encourages the racist abuse received by non white players. I think she has apologised for the comment now, because she didn't really have a choice not to. But I just thought I'd share that with you guys.

She's a vile bastard for her comments about refugees aswell, and for defending her husband.

Here's her e mail address: natalie.elphicke.mp@parliament.uk

And her constituency phone number is: 01304 379669


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> The complicated reasoning some offer to explain the upsurge in footy violence and racist shit amuses me. It's quite simple. It's cocaine. The same twats yelling racist shit at matches and generally being the Eng-ger-lund arsehole embarrassments that they are will be the same twats buying heavily cut cocaine and sniffing it on match day to enable them to consume more Stella than they can normally tolerate. The bright side of this is of course that many will die from heart related illnesses earlier than expected.


So your point is they're racists shits anyway but they would be quiet racist shits without the addition of alcohol and cocaine


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2021)

Fallon said:


> None of those developments have ended racism at football. It might be less common in stadiums, although anybody who goes to games regularly will be able to tell you of occasions they’ve heard racist abuse, but social media has made it happen 24/7. Racist fans don’t even need to go to matches to abuse players, they can just open an app and tweet their abuse directly onto the phones of the players they’re trying to harass. But this technological shift has happened after decades of struggle against racism in football.


Tbf, I don't think editor's point about widespread abuse on social media has to contradict the main argument being made in the article, it sort of seems to me like you can fit both of them into a single explanation - as the culture's shifted so that racist abuse at matches and in-person gatherings becomes rarer and more likely to be challenged, racists are more likely to express themselves online instead. Also, thinking about it, I suppose there is something for the point that not all racist internet posts will necessarily be coming from UK/English posters, I'm sure that whenever the 4chan dicks and their like see that there's a racist bandwagon happening they'll be jumping on it.


----------



## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2021)

Also, looking at the data in that Guardian article: Revealed: shocking scale of Twitter abuse targeting England at Euro 2020

I mean, I want to be very careful how I phrase this, cos I'm not trying to say "oh, only 102 racist tweets, there's no problem at all" cos clearly that's 102 too many, and similarly I'm not trying to say "ah, the vast majority were abusive without being specifically racist, and so that's fine", but still like:

Given the sheer amount of chatter around those games, those numbers, especially the specifically racist ones, are probably lower than I would have expected. Again, I'm not trying to downplay how upsetting it must be for the people on the receiving end.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh right. So anything they post up has to be taken as total facts and can not be challenged, because only they really know what's going on.
> 
> Right you are., then. There's clearly no point contributing any other opinions or viewpoints to this thread.


Hahaha


----------



## killer b (Jul 13, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Also, looking at the data in that Guardian article: Revealed: shocking scale of Twitter abuse targeting England at Euro 2020
> 
> I mean, I want to be very careful how I phrase this, cos I'm not trying to say "oh, only 102 racist tweets, there's no problem at all" cos clearly that's 102 too many, and similarly I'm not trying to say "ah, the vast majority were abusive without being specifically racist, and so that's fine", but still like:
> View attachment 278333
> Given the sheer amount of chatter around those games, those numbers, especially the specifically racist ones, are probably lower than I would have expected. Again, I'm not trying to downplay how upsetting it must be for the people on the receiving end.


the parameters are pretty narrow though - 5 hours around the three group stage matches, none of which were lost?


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## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> the parameters are pretty narrow though - 5 hours around the three group stage matches, none of which were lost?


Yeah, that's also true (also just twitter so no instagram, fb, reddit, etc). Although the article's from June so suppose that's all they had to go on?


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jul 13, 2021)

editor said:


> I don't think you appreciate how widespread the racist abuse was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I know what happened on Sunday night. I was pointing out what was said in the link that you supplied. 

Again, remember that people commenting on instagram are not necessarily representative of the almost 31 million watching the match. 

I can't comment on the link you've shared here as it says its unavailable at the moment. But I do think - not that its possible to know - that there will have been more people online expressing support with Saka, Sancho and Rashford and disgust at the racism being expressed than there are people sending racist abuse. 

Maybe that is rose tinted in your opinion but I suspect it's true.


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## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2021)

Just to recall the pre- rose tinted 1996 Euro games


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## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just to recall the pre- rose tinted 1996 Euro games
> 
> View attachment 278352


as i've said elsewhere the actual riot in the centre of london was over a rather wider area - i can cast my mind back to it because i saw it. and after england lost to west germany in 1990 there was a similar (tho perhaps lesser) wave of arsery - i was in germany at the time but heard of german cars being attacked etc.


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## RainbowTown (Jul 13, 2021)

"In Brighton, seven fans were so distraught they threw themselves off the pier, like pissed lemmings, and had to be rescued by the coastguard."

A case then, in this instance, of England truly not fighting them on the beaches.

 Winston would've been so disappointed.


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## hitmouse (Jul 13, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> I can't comment on the link you've shared here as it says its unavailable at the moment. But I do think - not that its possible to know - that there will have been more people online expressing support with Saka, Sancho and Rashford and disgust at the racism being expressed than there are people sending racist abuse.
> 
> Maybe that is rose tinted in your opinion but I suspect it's true.


That unilad article actually has a link to an example of that:





Don't think many of the racist comments would've been getting five figures of likes either.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So your point is they're racists shits anyway but they would be quiet racist shits without the addition of alcohol and cocaine


Yes, that is precisely my point. The cocaine gives them an inflated sense of importance and the inability to shut the fuck up, plus added aggression via alcohol.

Look we all know what these "lads" are about. They watched too many cheap football hoolie DVD's picked up from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs.
Films like "Football Factory" or "ID" or anything with that perennial bell-end Danny Dyer in it. They don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work. 

They want to feel the sense of "belonging" with the "lads" because they are incapable of opening up emotionally, so their ability to have successful relationships with women or any sorry children they manage to produce is scuppered. They are just damaged little men with fragile egos, and they invest whatever is swishing at the bottom of their emotionless husks into the idea of following the "lads" into "battle" over a sports game. It's the same all over the world. Little gangs of 7 year old kids in the playground of a primary school behave in the same way. You know this.

Of course you can pity these sad little boys all day, and refuse to invite them to nice things and refuse to introduce them to nice people. 
You can reduce their influence on your life, and leave them to the inevitable lonely misery for which they are destined.
Comment about them on obscure websites. Avoid their England flag festooned white vans, and their beautician or "boss babe" women with their sluglike lips and orange flesh.
Watch as they actively drive a thriving trade in cocaine, which results in warfare between rival gangs eager to maintain the income from "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his mates on match day.
Then watch as they post racist shit when some inner city kid is shot over an industry that they are directly fuelling.

And you'll be doing the same 40 years from now. We all know what they are. Cut them out of your life, and they will wither and vanish of their own accord.
It is important to document their behaviour, but as we see from Wembley security video, the police and security numbers for any football event involving the national team was less than half what is needs to be going forward. The coke binges or the spells in jail for domestic abuse or whatever they get up to will grind them into the ground.
Of course if Twitter and FB and all the others are keen to identify people for prosecution then we might be able to silence them more effectively. Not sure how keen I am on cancel culture but exposing people for what they are is only fair when they overstep the mark. It's 2021, it's very easy for people to go viral for some idiot comment posted somewhere. If you're still racially abusing people in 2021, expect to be doxxed, that then we can effectively silence them. Because that's all I want! Just to shut them the fuck up!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Yes, that is precisely my point. The cocaine gives them an inflated sense of importance and the inability to shut the fuck up, plus added aggression via alcohol.
> 
> Look we all know what these "lads" are about. They watched too many cheap football hoolie DVD's picked up from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs.
> Films like "Football Factory" or "ID" or anything with that perennial bell-end Danny Dyer in it. They don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work.
> ...


So let them be racist shits as long as they're quiet racist shits. Just perpetuating the problem rather than actually doing something to solve it. Sweeping all the shit under the carpet.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 15, 2021)

Fallon said:


> ENGLAND BELONGS TO US
> 
> By Jim – London FLAF [Leeds & England fan]
> 
> For many on the left, supporting the England football side hasn’t been easy. Particularly in the years when following England away was associated with football violence and the far-right. I haven’t always found it easy either, having been born in a different country. The year I attended my first England game was 1995, the same year neo-Nazi gang Combat 18 started a riot among England fans at Landsowne Road in Dublin.


The Combat 18 masterminding the riot is debatable, though.


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## AmateurAgitator (Jul 15, 2021)

This is spot on, and very well said by Pie (as usual):


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## SpackleFrog (Jul 15, 2021)

What do people make of the claim that some/a lot of the online abuse comes from other countries by the way? 

I heard Southgate in his interview say that they knew because of IP addresses etc that a lot of the online abuse came from other countries. I've since seen a Tory commentator also argue this and some MI5 bod has said they don't think it's true. 

I've been wondering because on the one hand it sounds a bit like the Remainers who say Russian bots made everyone vote for Brexit, but on the other hand far right and racist orgs do seem to be better organised in some countries than here and it doesn't seem inconceivable they would want to stoke racism. 

Also, I'm not tech literate enough to know but assuming that online racists are fairly likely to use VPN's, how could you even tell where they are posting from?


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## The39thStep (Jul 15, 2021)

Someone on possibly the English fans are racist thread posted up some links to a short summary of sources that have tried to analyse country of origin of racist tweets . Along with posts in English , French and Spanish also featured .
It is possible to identify whether an address is a VPN , BBC and ITV are very good at it but social media doesn’t do  it .


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Yes, that is precisely my point. The cocaine gives them an inflated sense of importance and the inability to shut the fuck up, plus added aggression via alcohol.





Pickman's model said:


> So let them be racist shits as long as they're quiet racist shits. Just perpetuating the problem rather than actually doing something to solve it. Sweeping all the shit under the carpet.


What would be your proposed alternative? Fight them? Drug their drinks? It's highly unlikely they can be re-educated and you don't strike me as a fighting person.


----------



## strung out (Jul 15, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> What do people make of the claim that some/a lot of the online abuse comes from other countries by the way?
> 
> I heard Southgate in his interview say that they knew because of IP addresses etc that a lot of the online abuse came from other countries. I've since seen a Tory commentator also argue this and some MI5 bod has said they don't think it's true.
> 
> ...


Hard to tell, but I reckon plenty comes from racists abroad as well as racists at home.

European football generally and English football specifically is huge overseas, and given how often black England players get targeted whenever they play in Eastern Europe, or the anti-black racism you get in South America and Asia, I don't think you need to start getting into conspiracy theories about foreign actors or people using VPNs to realise just how much of it is out there.

There are multiple reports of black Wales players getting racially abused in the last couple of years, with someone in Singapore arrested for one of those instances.

And obviously there's also the Mancunian estate agents etc who are too stupid to hide their identity before tweeting their racism.

In a similar vein, you don't have to go far on twitter to find all kinds of homophobic nonsense coming from obviously foreign twitter accounts every time pride or rainbow laces etc gets promoted in the Premier League  (alongside our home grown homophobes of course).


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> What would be your proposed alternative? Fight them? Drug their drinks? It's highly unlikely they can be re-educated and you don't strike me as a fighting person.


That's ok,you don't strike me as a thinking person


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's ok,you don't strike me as a thinking person


So, you think by igoring these racist hooligans and removing them from social media platforms and denying them access to football matches is perpetuating the problem?
I'm keen to hear what solutions beyond that you have in mind to "solve it". As I said, I doubt you are the street-fighting type.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> So, you think by igoring these racist hooligans and removing them from social media platforms and denying them access to football matches is perpetuating the problem?
> I'm keen to hear what solutions beyond that you have in mind to "solve it". As I said, I doubt you are the street-fighting type.


Yes, I think ignoring a problem doesn't solve it. Removing them from social media platforms doesn't solve it. Stopping them getting into football matches doesn't solve it. You are a great fan of out of sight out of mind. But racists are racists in communities, in workplaces, in schools and colleges and pubs and night clubs and on trains and buses etc. None of this means anything to you, I'm sure, as long as you don't see them.

But the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend. You might thing re-education means chucking them into camps but appealling tho the thought may be, it wouldn't work like that. Some racists - not all obvs - are amenable to reason and that's how this is changed, not by Lewishams or Waterloos etc but by plugging away at racists and racism when you find them. Not all of this can be done pacifically of course. But promoting class politics not race politics. Yeh you won't change everyone's minds. But if you don't try, if you take your tack of censorship, you'll never change anyone's mind. 

As I say you don't strike me as the thinking type


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Yes, that is precisely my point. The cocaine gives them an inflated sense of importance and the inability to shut the fuck up, plus added aggression via alcohol.
> 
> Look we all know what these "lads" are about. They watched too many cheap football hoolie DVD's picked up from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs.
> Films like "Football Factory" or "ID" or anything with that perennial bell-end Danny Dyer in it. They don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work.
> ...


Your analysis of football hooliganism is classist and simplistic, rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor. If there's any truth to those assumptions (which is doubtful), they cannot be extended to cover online racist abuse, which is carried out for vastly different reasons than football violence.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Your analysis of football hooliganism is classist and simplistic, rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor. If there's any truth to those assumptions (which is doubtful), they cannot be extended to cover online racist abuse, which is carried out for vastly different reasons than football violence.


He is stupid and short-sighted. He will go far in the labour or Tory parties.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, I think ignoring a problem doesn't solve it. Removing them from social media platforms doesn't solve it. Stopping them getting into football matches doesn't solve it. You are a great fan of out of sight out of mind. But racists are racists in communities, in workplaces, in schools and colleges and pubs and night clubs and on trains and buses etc. None of this means anything to you, I'm sure, as long as you don't see them.
> 
> But the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend. You might thing re-education means chucking them into camps but appealling tho the thought may be, it wouldn't work like that. Some racists - not all obvs - are amenable to reason and that's how this is changed, not by Lewishams or Waterloos etc but by plugging away at racists and racism when you find them. Not all of this can be done pacifically of course. But promoting class politics not race politics. Yeh you won't change everyone's minds. But if you don't try, if you take your tack of censorship, you'll never change anyone's mind.
> 
> As I say you don't strike me as the thinking type


So how has that worked out for you? Given that John Barnes is still seeing bananas chucked onto football pitches 40 years on from the famous picture of him in 1982. 
I think your idea of enlightening bulldog-tattooed Chelsea fans with essays on Gramsci is very sweet, but sadly the idea of Marxism is more of a turn-off now than it has ever been to most working class people, who would rather vote for the tory party even against their own interests than entertain the idea of Corbyn and the like.
Doesn't seem to me you have much experience at all with working class people or their communities. 
How would you propose introducing your "class politics" lessons to patrons of the Slaughtered Lamb or whatever, who love nothing better than getting pissed up and beating the shit out of left wing public school gobshites? Maybe put some Engels texts in their wraps of cheap cocaine?


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Your analysis of football hooliganism is classist and simplistic, rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor. If there's any truth to those assumptions (which is doubtful), they cannot be extended to cover online racist abuse, which is carried out for vastly different reasons than football violence.


My analysis of this behaviour is rooted in growing up around it for decades. Of course it's simplistic. There is nothing complicated about getting rat arsed on Stella Artois and cheap coke to indulge in punch ups and "a good old sing song". It  is a simplistic activity that only simpletons would enjoy. 
The racist abuse online is far more cowardly, and though it is carried out as a result of a football match not being won by those entitled enough to believe they deserve a victory, is swiftly prevented by doxxing those involved and making sure their employer is aware. There is no shortage of people who are ready to pay a visit to the online racist in person, once identified.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickmans Model - "the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend" 

sorry but I don't want to be friends with people who spent half their lives making monkey chants or throwing bananas onto pitches.
I want to see them live worthless lives and suffer from their decisions to the point that they remove themselves from a society that does not need or want them.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> So how has that worked out for you? Given that John Barnes is still seeing bananas chucked onto football pitches 40 years on from the famous picture of him in 1982.
> I think your idea of enlightening bulldog-tattooed Chelsea fans with essays on Gramsci is very sweet, but sadly the idea of Marxism is more of a turn-off now than it has ever been to most working class people, who would rather vote for the tory party even against their own interests than entertain the idea of Corbyn and the like.
> Doesn't seem to me you have much experience at all with working class people or their communities.
> How would you propose introducing your "class politics" lessons to patrons of the Slaughtered Lamb or whatever, who love nothing better than getting pissed up and beating the shit out of left wing public school gobshites? Maybe put some Engels texts in their wraps of cheap cocaine?


With every post your want of wit becomes clearer. I'm not a Marxist. I never said I was a Marxist. I haven't advocated bringing long-dead Italian Marxists up with anyone. Or even living labourites. 

You'd run a mile from the Chelsea headhunters, given you just want them out of sight and mind. The last time I (with a load of other anti-fascists) met the headhunters they were notable for the speed of their retreat and the way they fought each other to escape onto their coaches. 

But you won't change anyone's mind simply by giving them the occasional hiding. And you won't change anyone's mind as on your own evidence you're too craven to do anything about them yourself, you'd rather other people kept them out of football grounds and off social media.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Pickmans Model - "the best way to destroy an enemy is to turn them into a friend"
> 
> sorry but I don't want to be friends with people who spent half their lives making monkey chants or throwing bananas onto pitches.
> I want to see them live worthless lives and suffer from their decisions to the point that they remove themselves from a society that does not need or want them.


So you really want them to be embittered auld racists and their children to be embittered young racists. How's that working out for you? Forty years of failure not enough to suggest your auld ways aren't working?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> My analysis of this behaviour is rooted in growing up around it for decades. Of course it's simplistic. There is nothing complicated about getting rat arsed on Stella Artois and cheap coke to indulge in punch ups and "a good old sing song". It  is a simplistic activity that only simpletons would enjoy.
> The racist abuse online is far more cowardly, and though it is carried out as a result of a football match not being won by those entitled enough to believe they deserve a victory, is swiftly prevented by doxxing those involved and making sure their employer is aware. There is no shortage of people who are ready to pay a visit to the online racist in person, once identified.


So what you're really saying is there is an acceptable level of racism, as long as it's not online or at the footy you're quite happy to ignore it. Which is a really shitty attitude.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> With every post your want of wit becomes clearer. I'm not a Marxist. I never said I was a Marxist. I haven't advocated bringing long-dead Italian Marxists up with anyone. Or even living labourites.
> 
> You'd run a mile from the Chelsea headhunters, given you just want them out of sight and mind. The last time I (with a load of other anti-fascists) met the headhunters they were notable for the speed of their retreat and the way they fought each other to escape onto their coaches.
> 
> But you won't change anyone's mind simply by giving them the occasional hiding. And you won't change anyone's mind as on your own evidence you're too craven to do anything about them yourself, you'd rather other people kept them out of football grounds and off social media.


You have stated that your solution to the resurgence of ugly racism in football is to "educate them on class politics" which is as vague and as bemusing as it is comical.
I would of course run more than a mile from Chelsea Headhunters, though the old "firms" of the 80's and 90's appear to be far less of a thing today. 
I'm sure if I were amid groups of anti-fascists intent on countering the hooligan racists with violence, I would join in just as you claim to have done.

My opinion is really quite straightforward, the Blair government was as era where racism was dismissed as the nonsense of past backward thinking, as everyone was hugging each other in the stands and in the nightclubs after taking E.
Now the E culture has given way to the more insideous cocaine culture, we are seeing a return to the ugly stuff not seen as much since the worst days of Cyrille Regis.

It's interesting that you seem to believe you can change people's minds on "class politics" (as if these racist fools give a shit) yet you can't even debate this topic with me without the need to throw in insults and calling me "stupid and short-sighted".

Good luck trying to re-educate "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his idiot flock. Maybe you could sell them cocaine cut with viagra and watch them try and fuck each other?
You would probably have more luck that way converting them into being more tolerant people if you give them the means to accept their frustrations regarding their sexuality or their inadequate sense of belonging. The reasons that these men (and it is always men) turn to violence and racial hatred are many, and your solution is really not going to make any headway. 

Removing these people from influential positions, or their jobs, does work. Jim Davidson is a prime example. He had prime time TV shows espousing open racism, now he lives in Spain in a semen-stained dressing gown with no influence at all.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So what you're really saying is there is an acceptable level of racism, as long as it's not online or at the footy you're quite happy to ignore it. Which is a really shitty attitude.


In my opinion racism should be challenged whenever it becomes visible. You simply cannot stop the older generation from being racist. It's too late for them. They will die out, and their views will die with them. I am happy that anyone using the "N" word around black people should expect to be beaten severely and swiftly, be they male or female. There are legal mechanisms in place to prevent workplace discrimination, and given that the topic we are discussing is about football related racism, of course I'm only speaking of online and footy related racism. My attitude is not shitty at all, I've been challenging racist behaviour for as long as you have, perhaps even longer, but I am still trying to work out how you intend to re-educate these Stella swigging post-Brexit racist scumbags with "class politics".

You have had ample opportunities to explain how you propose to do this. Maybe try again?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> You have stated that your solution to the resurgence of ugly racism in football is to "educate them on class politics" which is as vague and as bemusing as it is comical.
> I would of course run more than a mile from Chelsea Headhunters, though the old "firms" of the 80's and 90's appear to be far less of a thing today.
> I'm sure if I were amid groups of anti-fascists intent on countering the hooligan racists with violence, I would join in just as you claim to have done.
> 
> ...


I have been clear that talking to people isn't always going to work some posts back. I have said clearly that physical methods are needed too. I don't know if you've any actual history of anti-fascist or anti- racist activity, your posts tho suggest you haven't. I on the other hand do have, including at events like Waterloo. If you know anything about afa you'll know they espoused a twin- track approach which is as valid now as it was in the 90s, of a physical and a political approach. And that's what I'm suggesting, that where you can you challenge these views.

As you might recall, the BNP stopped street politics because they were basically beaten off them. And then they went on to do very well electorally, until Jim Dowson pulled his money. Then ukip did well at the polls. And this is your huge blind spot: that even if racists are just spouting in the pub, even if they're not at the football or online, they're still racists and what's changed with radical right / fascist politics is that atm there is no electoral party to the right of the Tories. You may contend, and I'd agree, that atm the Tories have largely seized that ground. But if you are opposed to racism and fascism then you ought to challenge those views where you can. Because it is only by challenging those views that racists can be made to change them. Unless you know better, like.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> I am still trying to work out how you intend to re-educate these Stella swigging post-Brexit racist scumbags with "class politics".
> 
> You have had ample opportunities to explain how you propose to do this. Maybe try again?


I haven't proposed to re-educate anyone


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> Your analysis of football hooliganism is classist and simplistic, rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor. If there's any truth to those assumptions (which is doubtful), they cannot be extended to cover online racist abuse, which is carried out for vastly different reasons than football violence.


Well you are wrong - I never mentioned poor people at all - that appears to be a projection of yours. There are as many well-heeled public schoolboy racists as there are working class. I never mentioned "workshy" at all, in fact I suggested that many of the cultural ideas were picked up from watching Danny Dyer DVDs after work.
And there is a difference between football violence and racism within football. I know of several people from the West Ham hooligans of old that are decidedly anti-racist, and who are ashamed of their "lads" movements descending into embarrassing racist nonsense like the DFLA and Tommy Robinson worship.
So I can't see a classist angle with anything I said, and as mentioned, I do see football hooligan culture as a whole being pretty simplistic, and appealing to simpletons.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I haven't proposed to re-educate anyone


Well you did, by trying to say that re-education doesn't involve chucking people into camps.

"promoting class politics not race politics" seems to be your solution, alongside a good old fashioned kicking. I have no problem with the latter if that's what it takes, no pasaran and all that, but I fail to see how on Earth you would be able to promote class politics to "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his coke-snorting cohorts.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Well you did, by trying to say that re-education doesn't involve chucking people into camps.
> 
> "promoting class politics not race politics" seems to be your solution, alongside a good old fashioned kicking. I have no problem with the latter if that's what it takes, no pasaran and all that, but I fail to see how on Earth you would be able to promote class politics to "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his coke-snorting cohorts.


If you bother reading my posts instead of just looking at them you'll see I have said talking to people won't always work. Sometimes it will and those occasions should be taken advantage of, and other times someone will as you say be set in their ways and there's no point wasting your breath. There needs to be a diversity of tactics in opposing racism and as in any campaign some tactics will work in some situations and not in others.


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## hitmouse (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Well you are wrong - I never mentioned poor people at all - that appears to be a projection of yours. There are as many well-heeled public schoolboy racists as there are working class.


I mean, I agree with your last sentence there (at least proportionately, in terms of absolute numbers there's probably less just cos of there being less public schoolboys overall). But:


cyberpink said:


> Look we all know what these "lads" are about. They watched too many cheap football hoolie DVD's picked up from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs.


Were you talking about well-heeled public schoolboy racists picking up cheap DVDs from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs there?


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I mean, I agree with your last sentence there (at least proportionately, in terms of absolute numbers there's probably less just cos of there being less public schoolboys overall). But:
> 
> Were you talking about well-heeled public schoolboy racists picking up cheap DVDs from the local Esso garage on their way home from their dead end shitty jobs there?


Well I wasn't talking about poverty stricken communities sniffing £50 wraps of cocaine was I?


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you bother reading my posts instead of just looking at them you'll see I have said talking to people won't always work. Sometimes it will and those occasions should be taken advantage of, and other times someone will as you say be set in their ways and there's no point wasting your breath. There needs to be a diversity of tactics in opposing racism and as in any campaign some tactics will work in some situations and not in others.


A diversity of tactics including reducing these racists to the sidelines by deleting their social media accounts, getting them sacked from their jobs, banning them from football matches and not including them in modern society whatsoever. Glad we agree. I happen to think promoting "class politics" to these idiots is like trying to teach algebra to a poodle, but I guess we all have our ambitions.


----------



## Colin Hunt (Jul 15, 2021)

I'm quite tired so this post will be pretty brief. 


cyberpink said:


> Well you are wrong - I never mentioned poor people at all - that appears to be a projection of yours.


You may not have directly mentioned poor people but much of your post traffics in stereotypes about working class people. Some quotes:

'shitty dead end jobs'
'don't really even want to be "top boy" in their "firm" because that's too much work'
'England flag festooned white vans'
'beautician or "boss babe" women with their sluglike lips and orange flesh'

There's a picture being created here by the words that you use. And it's not a picture of an aspirational middle class existence. Hence my point that your post is rooted in assumptions about the workshy and aggressive poor.


cyberpink said:


> There are as many well-heeled public schoolboy racists as there are working class.


So why does your post not mention them at all? It's quite disingenuous to claim that your posts are targeting 'well-heeled public schoolboy racists' when you're talking about white van men drinking Stella and doing cheap coke. It's classist dogwhistling all the way down.


cyberpink said:


> I never mentioned "workshy" at all, in fact I suggested that many of the cultural ideas were picked up from watching Danny Dyer DVDs after work.


After working at their shitty dead end job they throw themselves into Danny Dyer films, because they can't be arsed to take on more responsibility in their firm because it's too much like hard work (in other words, they are workshy). In any case I disagree with the idea that hooligan media is a driver of this culture rather than merely a reflection of it.


cyberpink said:


> And there is a difference between football violence and racism within football. I know of several people from the West Ham hooligans of old that are decidedly anti-racist, and who are ashamed of their "lads" movements descending into embarrassing racist nonsense like the DFLA and Tommy Robinson worship.


I know there is a difference between football violence and racism within football. I said that in my first post. It was your post that linked racism to the same forces that you believe are behind football violence, when that view is just not borne out by reality as they are different phenomena driven by different factors.


cyberpink said:


> So I can't see a classist angle with anything I said, and as mentioned, I do see football hooligan culture as a whole being pretty simplistic, and appealing to simpletons.


Hopefully this post explains how I found a classist angle in your post.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Well you did, by trying to say that re-education doesn't involve chucking people into camps.
> 
> "promoting class politics not race politics" seems to be your solution, alongside a good old fashioned kicking. I have no problem with the latter if that's what it takes, no pasaran and all that, but I fail to see how on Earth you would be able to promote class politics to "DAZZA DA LEGEND" and his coke-snorting cohorts.



Your reference to this stereotype of Dazza Da Legend is clearly taking a broad brush to working class lads. My background was growing up in the environment you’re characterising. We’re discussing this on urban with generally politically switched on people. Most normal people have lives and don’t spend their days naval gazing. What’s my point? While there’s a percentage of people that will regurgitate messages absorbed from the media without consciously ripping it apart does not mean they are fundamentally racist and should not be engaged with. In my experience the hardcore, committed racists are rare. These toerags aim to take others along this path with them. By not engaging with those with casusal racist views they may stay on that path.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

Colin Hunt said:


> I'm quite tired so this post will be pretty brief.
> 
> You may not have directly mentioned poor people but much of your post traffics in stereotypes about working class people. Some quotes:
> 
> ...


Well those obsessed with class will always find ways to see classism I suppose. The lager/cocaine "lads lads lads" culture is a culture I despise.
I stand by every word I said because it's true and observable. I don't think it's a class thing, it's more a cultural thing. In the same way public schoolboys will have pictures of 2Pac and start speaking with an urban accent and call each other "bruv" and "fam", nothing to do with class, more to do with clinging on to an identity because cultivating a personality is too much like hard work.

The only subtle error in your interpretation is that of the "can't be arsed to take on more responsibility in their firm because it's too much like hard work" which is less to do with being workshy and more to do with being a coward, they would rather hover in the sidelines than stand as leaders. The cocaine is probably the only time they feel a flush of self-confidence. I would pity them but I want them to suffer, I don't want to be their friend, and I don't want them to have a role in society beyond being cannon fodder for the next oil war.

I understand your dream would be to get them to unite with normal people to destroy the tories and improve living standards. But it will never happen, in my opinion, so really it's about what we do about them and how we treat them. And none of my ideas about that are coming from a place of compassion or kindness. These people are the school bullies, the rapists, the entitled and the greedy. Life is better without them.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Well those obsessed with class will always find ways to see classism I suppose. The lager/cocaine "lads lads lads" culture is a culture I despise.
> I stand by every word I said because it's true and observable. I don't think it's a class thing, it's more a cultural thing. In the same way public schoolboys will have pictures of 2Pac and start speaking with an urban accent and call each other "bruv" and "fam", nothing to do with class, more to do with clinging on to an identity because cultivating a personality is too much like hard work.
> 
> The only subtle error in your interpretation is that of the "can't be arsed to take on more responsibility in their firm because it's too much like hard work" which is less to do with being workshy and more to do with being a coward, they would rather hover in the sidelines than stand as leaders.



I would advise a short break from this thread to think.

Your post above uses a classic mechanism directly related to racism i.e. you see others in an “out-group” as being very similar (“cultivating a personality is too much like hard work”) and your “in-group” as being diverse.


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> I would advise a short break from this thread to think.
> 
> Your post above uses a classic mechanism directly related to racism i.e. you see others in an “out-group” as being very similar (“cultivating a personality is too much like hard work”) and your “in-group” as being diverse.


I see the "others" or the "out-group" being the "lads lads lads lager lager" MALE culture of racism, bullying, rape and selfish greed which is an attempt to compensate for their inability to express their emotions properly. And yes, it is all the same types. You find them in every town, usually in the pubs festooned with St George flags.

The "in-group" are of course the people such as those here, open minded and who enjoy the nicer things in life, festivals, music, relationships, inclusivity and art and trying to make the world a more fair and socially just place for all.

I see no problem in the "in-group" refusing to have the "out-group" spoil it for them. It's always been like this. And by sword or semtex, it always will be.


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## RileyOBlimey (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> *The "in-group" are of course the people such as those here, open minded and who enjoy the nicer things in life, festivals, music, relationships, inclusivity and art and trying to make the world a more fair and socially just place for all.*
> 
> I see no problem in the "in-group" refusing to have the "out-group" spoil it for them. It's always been like this. And by sword or semtex, it always will be.



The in-group and out-groups I’m referencing are the psychology definitions. You have demonstrated a textbook example of bigotry in the name of anti-racism. See my bold in your comment and the quote below…



> Ethnocentrism was described by Sumner as a universal characteristic of human social groups whereby a differentiation arises between ourselves, the we-group, or in-group, and everybody else, or the others-group, out-groups. The insiders in a we-group are in a relation of peace, order, law, government, and industry, to each other … Ethnocentrism is the technical name for this view of things in which one's own group is the center of everything, and all others are scaled and rated with reference to it … *Each group nourishes its own pride and vanity, boasts itself superior, exalts its own divinities, and looks with contempt on outsiders.*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## tonysingh (Jul 15, 2021)

Racism at football will never go away, simple as that. The gormless two bobs spouting abuse will still shuffle through the turnstiles, they'll still watch the game on telly if they aint at the ground and as we've seen since the Euro final, they'll still reach for their social media post-match. It's down to decent fans to drown the shitcunts out when they pipe up with their pish. They sing something racist, we sing something else louder.

A lot of the reason why racism is resurgent in football right now is down to us normal fans and the fact we let it fucking happen. This is on us really, we should have fronted them at the first peep of something. If needs be, we front them out instead. But like i said, for whatever reason, we allowed racism to follow us into the grounds again like a foetid half time pie.


----------



## tonysingh (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> My analysis of this behaviour is rooted in growing up around it for decades. Of course it's simplistic. There is nothing complicated about getting rat arsed on Stella Artois and cheap coke to indulge in punch ups and "a good old sing song". It  is a simplistic activity that only simpletons would enjoy.
> The racist abuse online is far more cowardly, and though it is carried out as a result of a football match not being won by those entitled enough to believe they deserve a victory, is swiftly prevented by doxxing those involved and making sure their employer is aware. There is no shortage of people who are ready to pay a visit to the online racist in person, once identified.



The causes of football violence are different from club to club and region to region and with a multitude of antecedent factors. The one thing it is palpably not is simple.  It also does not automatically follow that football violence = racism. I know plenty of blokes that liked a tear up prior/at/after a game but would equally fight the racists as the opposition. 

I would also draw attention to the "a good old sing song" line there. Singing of football songs is one the last truly working class folk art forms. Anywhere from dozens to 80000+  men, women and children all singing as one. It's a truly beautiful and uplifting thing when it happens and has a history that reaches back beyond even the formation of the game itself really. To dismiss it as the prerogative of the gormless and unthinking hooligan as you do is as classist as any of the other stuff you spouted.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> So how has that worked out for you? Given that John Barnes is still seeing bananas chucked onto football pitches 40 years on from the famous picture of him in 1982.
> I think your idea of enlightening bulldog-tattooed Chelsea fans with essays on Gramsci is very sweet, but sadly the idea of Marxism is more of a turn-off now than it has ever been to most working class people, who would rather vote for the tory party even against their own interests than entertain the idea of Corbyn and the like.
> Doesn't seem to me you have much experience at all with working class people or their communities.
> How would you propose introducing your "class politics" lessons to patrons of the Slaughtered Lamb or whatever, who love nothing better than getting pissed up and beating the shit out of left wing public school gobshites? Maybe put some Engels texts in their wraps of cheap cocaine?



Ever thought that the problem isn't your tattooed straw men patrons of fictional pubs, but the middle classes, the liberals and centrists?


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> The causes of football violence are different from club to club and region to region and with a multitude of antecedent factors. The one thing it is palpably not is simple.  It also does not automatically follow that football violence = racism. I know plenty of blokes that liked a tear up prior/at/after a game but would equally fight the racists as the opposition.
> 
> I would also draw attention to the "a good old sing song" line there. Singing of football songs is one the last truly working class folk art forms. Anywhere from dozens to 80000+  men, women and children all singing as one. It's a truly beautiful and uplifting thing when it happens and has a history that reaches back beyond even the formation of the game itself really. To dismiss it as the prerogative of the gormless and unthinking hooligan as you do is as classist as any of the other stuff you spouted.


so, "not all hooligans" then? I've already stated most of what you say above. Picking up on the "sing song" part and taking umbrage to that seems a bit odd. I certainly don't see it as the prerogative or the sole right of racist hooligans, that would be ridiculous.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> The in-group and out-groups I’m referencing are the psychology definitions. You have demonstrated a textbook example of bigotry in the name of anti-racism. See my bold in your comment and the quote below…


I'm obviously bigoted against racists, as well as moronic football hooliganism in general, and I am proudly bigoted against "lager lager lads lads" culture. Even if they aren't racist they make a mess, and lead to things like Heysel. And I'm definitely bigoted toward everything I mentioned in my earlier post, specifically those that yell the sexist abuse from their England flag festooned white vans, and their "boss babe" women with their sluglike plastic porno lips and orange flesh.
The world is changing, perhaps not as fast as I would like, but generally I don't allow such people in my orbit, and don't enter into their pitiful world.

If there is a new "firm" of "lads" that are keen on smashing the skulls of nazi football racists, I'm all for it, but I would trust their judgement about as much as I trust the police in the grand scheme of things. And I very much doubt they will be visiting their nazi opponents in hospital to try and educate them on class politics. Though I would like to see them try. Hahaha. If you wanted to really fuck em up, drop some wraps of cocaine laced with fentanyl in the toilets of their favourite boozer, though that of course would be tatamount to murder, and I don't fancy spending my life locked up in the big house with the very scumbags to which I refer.

As we've all seen, they'll fight each other if they have no foreign/black/gay/left wing opponents to fight, such is their bloodlust. It's not something I share.
It's just a shame that their appetite for cocaine is destroying inner city youth. Otherwise I'd be happy to let them fight each other to the death. Nothing of value lost.


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## tonysingh (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> so, "not all hooligans" then? I've already stated most of what you say above. Picking up on the "sing song" part and taking umbrage to that seems a bit odd. I certainly don't see it as the prerogative or the sole right of racist hooligans, that would be ridiculous.



No, not all hooligans, you're quite right. Again, if you knew anything about the history of football from its foundation to now, you'd know that what you call a 'hooligan' is essentially a codeword for the working class. It's also a borderline ethnic slur against the Irish, given the words etymology. In short, when football was created as a form of recreation in the early to mid Victorian era, there was huge anti Irish sentiment in Britain. Football grew popular with the working class but not how the upper middle and upper class had hoped. The Age of Equipoise had its victims home and abroad after all and those here often rebelled and often violently. At the same time in Ireland, the Potato Famine and Land War had their violent parts. Hence the two were conflated and boom, the Hooligan was born. 

You failed to differentiate between racists singing songs at football (which barely happens,if at all.) and the rest of us enjoying football culture. And yes, I use culture totally without irony.


----------



## tonysingh (Jul 15, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> I'm obviously bigoted against racists, as well as moronic football hooliganism in general, and I am proudly bigoted against "lager lager lads lads" culture. Even if they aren't racist they make a mess, and lead to things like Heysel. And I'm definitely bigoted toward everything I mentioned in my earlier post, specifically those that yell the sexist abuse from their England flag festooned white vans, and their "boss babe" women with their sluglike plastic porno lips and orange flesh.
> The world is changing, perhaps not as fast as I would like, but generally I don't allow such people in my orbit, and don't enter into their pitiful world.
> 
> If there is a new "firm" of "lads" that are keen on smashing the skulls of nazi football racists, I'm all for it, but I would trust their judgement about as much as I trust the police in the grand scheme of things. And I very much doubt they will be visiting their nazi opponents in hospital to try and educate them on class politics. Though I would like to see them try. Hahaha. If you wanted to really fuck em up, drop some wraps of cocaine laced with fentanyl in the toilets of their favourite boozer, though that of course would be tatamount to murder, and I don't fancy spending my life locked up in the big house with the very scumbags to which I refer.
> ...



Almost everything you've written there is utter pish. Quite the achievement. 

Also, before my phone battery runs out, I've spent time in the big house too and for serious crimes. Am I a scumbag also? By your moral code, I also deserve to die?


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## cyberpink (Jul 15, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> Almost everything you've written there is utter pish. Quite the achievement.
> 
> Also, before my phone battery runs out, I've spent time in the big house too and for serious crimes. Am I a scumbag also? By your moral code, I also deserve to die?


Depends what you were in for. I doubt you were in for racially abusing people, but that's not all these "lads" do after a day on the Stella and shite cocaine is it?
Domestic abuse, rape, all in a days work for the "lads" with the mentality I have described.
I don't think you were in for any of those things by the way. But you can bet DAZZA DA LEGEND and his mates were.
You may be right about the historical definitions of "hooligan" and I don't doubt the uplifting power of song in a crowd - it started in the churches long before football, and look what a bunch of rapey bastards they can be... as well as violent, racist, murderous and openly sexist to this day to the point of denying rape victims abortions, so tell me more about my moral code haha


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## cyberpink (Jul 16, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> No, not all hooligans, you're quite right. Again, if you knew anything about the history of football from its foundation to now, you'd know that what you call a 'hooligan' is essentially a codeword for the working class. It's also a borderline ethnic slur against the Irish, given the words etymology. In short, when football was created as a form of recreation in the early to mid Victorian era, there was huge anti Irish sentiment in Britain. Football grew popular with the working class but not how the upper middle and upper class had hoped. The Age of Equipoise had its victims home and abroad after all and those here often rebelled and often violently. At the same time in Ireland, the Potato Famine and Land War had their violent parts. Hence the two were conflated and boom, the Hooligan was born.
> 
> You failed to differentiate between racists singing songs at football (which barely happens,if at all.) and the rest of us enjoying football culture. And yes, I use culture totally without irony.


There are of course some elements of football culture I find acceptable. Some of the chants are funny. I prefer the womens game though, far less amateur dramatics when one gets fouled, and far less involvement with insidious brands and people like Rupert Murdoch, who I really hope dies soon, for far more important reasons than mere football.


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## Humberto (Jul 16, 2021)

Stick with your comrades, speak the truth and be decent is surprisingly effective. Society/the world IS fucked up imo, but it always has been and always will be.


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## cyberpink (Jul 16, 2021)

Humberto said:


> Stick with your comrades, speak the truth and be decent is surprisingly effective. Society/the world IS fucked up imo, but it always has been and always will be.


This is how I live my life, and I'm happy.


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## Fallon (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> The Combat 18 masterminding the riot is debatable, though.


Yep. This was later added to the article - Editor's Note: It was subsequently established that C18 played a relatively minor role, if any, in the Dublin riot. There was enough of a generally anti-Irish element among England's hooligans to cause the mayhem without the impetus of MI5's Nazi Honeypot.


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## cyberpink (Jul 17, 2021)

Fallon said:


> Yep. This was later added to the article - Editor's Note: It was subsequently established that C18 played a relatively minor role, if any, in the Dublin riot. There was enough of a generally anti-Irish element among England's hooligans to cause the mayhem without the impetus of MI5's Nazi Honeypot.


Wait, Combat18 was an MI5 honeypot? Really? I mean I want to believe! What is the scoop on that? No conspiracy stuff though
Has my whole life been a lie?
Also I have read my comments back just now, and I must tell you that I had my second Covid jab on Wednesday and it made me a bit angry with the hooligans that reject common sense and science. It also made me cross that Trump shut down the NSC that would have meant a faster response. As a long-term ambition that is very unladylike I intend to travel as far as I need to in order to shit upon the grave of Donald Trump. They will have to bury that bitch on the Moon to stop me. And I am extremely overweight and I shit kilos at a time. Trump disbanded NSC pandemic unit that experts had praised


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## krtek a houby (Jul 17, 2021)

Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?


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## fishfinger (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?


Should we stop using the word "tory" as well?


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## krtek a houby (Jul 17, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Should we stop using the word "tory" as well?



Maybe


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## cyberpink (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?


We are told of some long lost etymology surrounding the word.

Let's talk about the vandals. Is vandalism a slur on the brave Vandals?

I want to talk about the fucking Alans. They were proper bastards. Alans - Wikipedia


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## tonysingh (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Now that we all know the etymology of the word "hooligan" (cheers, ta tonysingh ) is it still acceptable to be tossing the word round so freely?


'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.



(Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 17, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> 'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.
> 
> 
> 
> (Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)


I'm really not having for a second the idea that the word "hooligan" is suddenly an exclusive term that only described Irish people. You don't get to cry "hooligan" as a word that is inherently prejudicial toward Irish people. Not after all this time. The idea of "football hooligan" has never involved Irish "lads" because Irish lads are graceful in defeat.

Sure if I used the word "knacker" or worse, similar simile, to take it even further back into the sailor and trader slang on the old ships.
Maybe you could hit me for the "balagan" which is a Turk/Arabic phrase for "troublemaker" (still used across the middle east) that emerged from ship-speak in the pirate ages, and was likely bastardised into common parlance into "hooligan" amid the long card games and slavery that was the high seas 400 years ago.

But "hooligan" is not a word used to describe Irish lads in 2021. You know it too, so don't be such a wet fart.
I'm impressed with your etymology, but don't wear it as some sort of shield or an excuse to shut me down. You'll need to work harder than that, son.


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## tonysingh (Jul 17, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> I'm really not having for a second the idea that the word "hooligan" is suddenly an exclusive term that only described Irish people. You don't get to cry "hooligan" as a word that is inherently prejudicial toward Irish people. Not after all this time. The idea of "football hooligan" has never involved Irish "lads" because Irish lads are graceful in defeat.
> 
> Sure if I used the word "knacker" or worse, similar simile, to take it even further back into the sailor and trader slang on the old ships.
> Maybe you could hit me for the "balagan" which is a Turk/Arabic phrase for "troublemaker" (still used across the middle east) that emerged from ship-speak in the pirate ages, and was likely bastardised into common parlance into "hooligan" amid the long card games and slavery that was the high seas 400 years ago.
> ...



Ah. It's you. That would explain a lot and really should have been obvious from the beginning. Still, welcome back.

Excellent ethnic sweeping generalisation on us Irish lads being gracious in defeat by the way. Interesting that you seem to think you have the authority to tell someone (me, as an Irishman) on the receiving end  whether or not I get to be offended. Excellent gatekeeping there  well-done.

It's not the word that follows or precedes hooligan that's the issue, it's the word itself. But again, since it's yourself, i expect you won't admit fault.


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## Athos (Jul 17, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> Ah. It's you. That would explain a lot and really should have been obvious from the beginning. Still, welcome back.
> 
> Excellent ethnic sweeping generalisation on us Irish lads being gracious in defeat by the way. Interesting that you seem to think you have the authority to tell someone (me, as an Irishman) on the receiving end  whether or not I get to be offended. Excellent gatekeeping there  well-done.
> 
> It's not the word that follows or precedes hooligan that's the issue, it's the word itself. But again, since it's yourself, i expect you won't admit fault.


Who is it?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 17, 2021)

tonysingh said:


> 'On the one hand it's at the milder end of anti Irish sentiment in itself, but broadly speaking language is incredibly important. I think it's probably a matter for the individual. I think that if you're going to hold forth about football violence then you should maybe be better informed. That's about as far as I can be arsed to go right now, to better save from getting dragged into an arguement here.
> 
> 
> 
> (Edited to add that it occurred to me as I was writing there that exploring the anti Irish attitudes of the British would be a fucking banging PhD thesis)



Would recommend chapter 9 in Lentin & McVeigh's Racism and Anti-Racism in Ireland. Also, Liz Curtis' Nothing But the Same Old Story - The Roots of Anti-Irish Racism. The latter haven't read in over 30 years, the former references it a bit.


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## TopCat (Jul 17, 2021)

Fucking hell


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## tonysingh (Jul 17, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Would recommend chapter 9 in Lentin & McVeigh's Racism and Anti-Racism in Ireland. Also, Liz Curtis' Nothing But the Same Old Story - The Roots of Anti-Irish Racism. The latter haven't read in over 30 years, the former references it a bit.



Ta. 

Any background reading for the work ahead is appreciated.


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## JuanTwoThree (Jul 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> But you won't change anyone's mind simply by giving them the occasional hiding


I have met people who had dabbled with pro-fash violence who said that it was a bit of an  epiphany to discover that students and reds and anarchists werent all weedy vegetarians but some could dish it out too. I think that clearing them off the streets with some violence did put off the less committed and may have led some to reflect on their flirtations with fascism. How many and how much I dont know

Technology has changed too. 'Dissuading' pamphleteers and paper sellers and marchers was effective pre internet.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2021)

JuanTwoThree said:


> I have met people who had dabbled with pro-fash violence who said that it was a bit of an  epiphany to discover that students and reds and anarchists werent all weedy vegetarians but some could dish it out too. I think that clearing them off the streets with some violence did put off the less committed and may have led some to reflect on their flirtations with fascism. How many and how much I dont know
> 
> Technology has changed too. 'Dissuading' pamphleteers and paper sellers and marchers was effective pre internet.


You're quite right. But those were the days when the streets were being cleared and altho there have been some successes in recent years the fash are not being beaten off the streets as they were before. This isn't to put down anti-fascists today but to recognise we live in different times


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 17, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> We are told of some long lost etymology surrounding the word.
> 
> Let's talk about the vandals. Is vandalism a slur on the brave Vandals?
> 
> I want to talk about the fucking Alans. They were proper bastards. Alans - Wikipedia


pisspoor whataboutery


----------



## Fallon (Jul 26, 2021)

This is our first ever #FLAF podcast so please be kind, we’re still learning...

Episode 1 - England Belongs To Us

Five English born lads from various ethnic backgrounds & a Scotsman discuss the Euros, England & Racism... from the fans’ initial  booing of ‘the knee’ & the reaction to it from England supporters who oppose the racists. The podcast also touches on the aftermath of the defeat to Italy in the final, the racist abuse of Marcus Rashford, the defacing of the mural in Manchester & the local community’s fantastic response to it. 

Join - Riaz, Shaz, Cal, Alex, Tony & Lee for our first podcast.









						Football Lads & Lasses • A podcast on Anchor
					

This is the podcast of Football Lads & Lasses Against Fascism [FLAF]  The podcast will discuss football [soccer] and politics via recorded & live interviews, discussions & debates, with working class football fans from England, Scotland, Wales & Ireland [north & south] as well as with...




					anchor.fm


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

Fallon said:


> This is our first ever #FLAF podcast so please be kind, we’re still learning...
> 
> Episode 1 - England Belongs To Us
> 
> ...



Listened to it this morning. Very good for the first episode and good to see its emergence. One thing I'd say is that someone needs to be 'chair', or whatever the lingo is for podcasts, to make sure the conversation is more structured, all points are covered and to make sure everyone gets a say if that makes sense?

Good to hear a proper working class west midlands accent on there by the way....


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Listened to it this morning. Very good for the first episode and good to see its emergence. One thing I'd say is that someone needs to be 'chair', or whatever the lingo is for podcasts, to make sure the conversation is more structured, all points are covered and to make sure everyone gets a say if that makes sense?
> 
> Good to hear a proper working class west midlands accent on there by the way....


facilitator perhaps


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 27, 2021)

Fallon said:


> This is our first ever #FLAF podcast so please be kind, we’re still learning...
> 
> Episode 1 - England Belongs To Us
> 
> ...


very interesting and i look forward to episode two.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 27, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Listened to it this morning. Very good for the first episode and good to see its emergence. One thing I'd say is that someone needs to be 'chair', or whatever the lingo is for podcasts, to make sure the conversation is more structured, all points are covered and to make sure everyone gets a say if that makes sense?



I literally just finished listening to it two minutes ago and thought the same. It's good but could maybe use a little more structure just to keep things moving. Also the music at the beginning could be cut a bit shorter, it was a bit 'is this still going on.'

Good antidote to the sort of stuff on the 'Isn't England the worst place in the world' thread in the Euros forum I thought.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> facilitator perhaps



Aye, or is it host? Anyway, whatever they are called it needs one imho...


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> pisspoor whataboutery


Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.



You're doing this Harrow shite on two separate threads now. Give it a rest, eh.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You're doing this Harrow shite on two separate threads now. Give it a rest, eh.


Harrowvian whovian vibes are strong. I recall Annakey and that weird sweaty trembling creep were Harrow boys. Playing working class hero. Must be 20 years back now. I no longer own that motorbike. It nearly killed me.
Who was that Shkreli looking character that went weird? I do hope he found a lover.
Is the Canadian guy still here? The one that was offended by the party on 9/11. And the funny girls, I can't remember any names but they were funny. They shut the boys down. Pre-Facebook era cockblocking, and good on them.
This place was a funhouse in the 90's. I do hope everyone got themselves sorted out. I remember Dubversion, annoying fucker with a superb taste in music. Hard to hate a man who was into Shellac.

I don't remember you though, Krtek a Houby. What did they call you in the old days?

Honestly I don't care. I'm not here to cause trouble at all. I just hope everyone from the old days is alright. I drift about on the internet like a driftwood and I miss the old time banters and laughs from urban75.
I can't think of anyone I miss, but I can't help but take the piss. Some good people here mixed with not so good people. The idea of a Harrow old boy facing off against some Headhunters is enough to make me a Chelsea hooligan tho haha
I have Gilettes under my tits for the Uber randoms. Especially if they play Heart FM.


----------



## RileyOBlimey (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.


The Headhunters look hard and act it but they wilted when confronted by a bunch of vegans and feminists.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.


Sorry Pickman's model for liking this post but after the torrent of shite being spwed by this one, this comment is quite funny. X


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Sorry Pickman's model for liking this post but after the torrent of shite being spwed by this one, this comment is quite funny. X


all of it true though


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

RileyOBlimey said:


> The Headhunters look hard and act it but they wilted when confronted by a bunch of vegans and feminists.


most of them are knackered and hiding in Spain haha


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Harrowvian whovian vibes are strong. I recall Annakey and that weird sweaty trembling creep were Harrow boys. Playing working class hero. Must be 20 years back now. I no longer own that motorbike. It nearly killed me.
> Who was that Shkreli looking character that went weird? I do hope he found a lover.
> Is the Canadian guy still here? The one that was offended by the party on 9/11. And the funny girls, I can't remember any names but they were funny. They shut the boys down. Pre-Facebook era cockblocking, and good on them.
> This place was a funhouse in the 90's. I do hope everyone got themselves sorted out. I remember Dubversion, annoying fucker with a superb taste in music. Hard to hate a man who was into Shellac.
> ...


So who were you then in this golden era?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> all of it true though


None of it is true.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> None of it is true.


dream on lad
Don't know what you've seen during the past 18 months, but you're lost if you think anything I said is lies


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So who were you then in this golden era?


your friendly neighbourhood spiderman
you don't care so stop pretending


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> your friendly neighbourhood spiderman
> you don't care so stop pretending


You quote a lot of people mostly in a disparaging manner so it’s reasonable to ask who you were then.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

We can play guess the wanker if you like, if you’re shy.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You quote a lot of people mostly in a disparaging manner so it’s reasonable to ask who you were then.


I haven't disparaged you. So mind your business.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.


Only it is utter shite. You're a gullible twat with all the honesty of Boris Johnson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You quote a lot of people mostly in a disparaging manner so it’s reasonable to ask who you were then.


He was a gullible wanker then and not improved with age


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He was a gullible wanker then and not improved with age


I was going to put up a fiver for the best or most amusing guess but it seems you know the answer.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Apparently you're a Harrow private funded posh arse psuedo anarchist so you never learned street fighting and you would wilt in front of any Chelsea headhunters. Stop being hardman.


It would explain alot


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jul 29, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> You're doing this Harrow shite on two separate threads now. Give it a rest, eh.


Can't Pickman's defend himself? Why does everyone feel the need to rush to his defense I wonder.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He was a gullible wanker then and not improved with age


How was Harrow, with all the straw boaters, and subsequently growing up to be a lefty working class hero that can see off an army of Chelsea Headhunters on crappy cocaine? 
What house were you in?


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Only it is utter shite. You're a gullible twat with all the honesty of Boris Johnson.


Dear chap, not that it matters much, but do you deny being an old Harrowvian? I beg to differ. 
Apparently being educated by the old school on the hill means you have the divine right to doff any Chelsea Headhunter on the bonce.
What a working class hero you must be.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

So a brief look at your posts tells me.
You claim to have made piles on bit coin
You believe in UFO’s
You believe in hypnosis
You disparage working class culture and people generally but especially blokes
You mention Dublin a few times
You try and be provocative all over the shop talking about eating out dogs etc. 
You mention all sorts of posters from nigh on twenty years ago
You come across as a smug know it all

So who are you?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Can't Pickman's defend himself? Why does everyone feel the need to rush to his defense I wonder.


Are you cyberpink as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Can't Pickman's defend himself? Why does everyone feel the need to rush to his defense I wonder.


I'm still waiting for you to justify your complaint that saying someone does protest to much is super offensive


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Dear chap, not that it matters much, but do you deny being an old Harrowvian? I beg to differ.
> Apparently being educated by the old school on the hill means you have the divine right to doff any Chelsea Headhunter on the bonce.
> What a working class hero you must be.


I do deny being an OH, so I'm sorry to say I was never in your auld house


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So a brief look at your posts tells me.
> You claim to have made piles on bit coin
> You believe in UFO’s
> You believe in hypnosis
> ...


Yea sorry about the dog thing. That was not meant to be bait. I was disgusted once I realised.

The rest is not really about me, it's about your paranoia. You didn't go to Harrow. Go back to bed.


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I do deny being an OH, so I'm sorry to say I was never in your auld house


Liar


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Liar


You're right, I'm not really sorry.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

This is like looking through a slit in someone’s curtains and seeeing them shit on the carpet. 

“ We cannot discount the possibility of echoes in spiritual energy. I have known babies who have lived before.”


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Did the babies look at you cyberpink?


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is like looking through a slit in someone’s curtains and seeeing them shit on the carpet.
> 
> “ We cannot discount the possibility of echoes in spiritual energy. I have known babies who have lived before.”


Sounds like something you like doing?? Looking into shitty carpeted homes?? Your eager defence of the public schoolboy is touching though. Like touching cloth.
I'm bored now so bye for now. Love you!! Back soon!


----------



## cyberpink (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did the babies look at you cyberpink?


Yes they did. Did yours? Before you ate them? (don't answer that)


----------



## tonysingh (Jul 29, 2021)

Ah, it's all kicking off. How thoroughly unlike Urban.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2021)

cyberpink said:


> Sounds like something you like doing?? Looking into shitty carpeted homes?? Your eager defence of the public schoolboy is touching though. Like touching cloth.
> I'm bored now so bye for now. Love you!! Back soon!


Let's make it a week. Love you! back soon!

UPDATE: it's now a perma-ban


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Who was he?


----------



## strung out (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who was he?


Vencedor.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

strung out said:


> Vencedor.


Blast from the past alright.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who was he?


who was that masked man?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Blast from the past alright.



Vencedor was already a legendary past troll when I joined iirc - nearly 20 years ago.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 29, 2021)

Got high on Diesel fumes 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

DaveCinzano said:


> Got high on Diesel fumes 🤷‍♀️


very particulate about his drugs


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

Thank fuck for that, irritating, I am the oracle, smug, know it all, narcissistic, anti working class misogynist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 29, 2021)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Vencedor was already a legendary past troll when I joined iirc - nearly 20 years ago.


dwyer does it better


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thank fuck for that, irritating, I am the oracle, smug, know it all, narcissistic, anti working class misogynist.


To be fair we have had a few of them over the years. I’m jaded as you can see it miles off now.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Remember when a debate about banning some arse went on for weeks? Now I don’t flinch at the shot report.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

I saw that Steelgate a few weeks back. I don’t know why I mention this really. 
Least that cunt flimsier don’t rear his pustulant head any more.


----------



## Fallon (Aug 22, 2021)

Podcast - Episode 2


----------



## Fallon (Nov 18, 2021)

Podcast number 3. A meeting held in the West Midlands recently.


----------



## Fallon (Nov 20, 2021)

We endorse Joe Solo’s statement & we have no compunction in saying that we at FLAF do not share his respect for Hope Not Hate, which is not a grassroots ‘antifascist’ organisation, but a massively funded ‘anti-extremist’ adjunct of the state, intent on shifting the toxic debate over Zionism & Anti-Semitism from the Labour Party to the antifascist movement. We’re warning them now that they will not steamroll militant antifascists into submission over the rights of the Palestinians to a homeland free of interference from Israel.
————————————————

Statement by Joe Solo on Hope Not Hate’s accusations of ‘anti-Semitism’ against him.

Following the statement released last night by Hope Not Hate and Community Union I feel the need to clarify my side of things.

I massively respect the work done by HNH to combat racism on our streets, and I understand their decision to withdraw the HOPE Award under social media pressure. 

I have fought against racism, discrimination and victimisation in all their forms my whole life, the first time at knife point aged 14, and will continue to do so until my dying day. 

The Jewish community were fascism’s first victims, and the first to show us how to fight back when they took on the Blackshirts up and down this land with their bare hands. Culminating in the Battle Of Cable Street and continuing post-war with the 43 group, they are the inspiration for anti-fascists everywhere to this day. I sing about them at virtually every gig. The idea that I would insult their memory, or the community they fought so hard to defend, is heartbreaking to me, as their example is the one all anti-fascists follow to this day. I absolutely recognise the legitimate concerns of the Jewish Community toward anti-semitism and wish to reassure anyone offended by my portrayal that this is not me. I remain steadfastly dedicated to fighting racism in every form.

I am being accused of denying anti-semitism in the Labour Party. I refute this. I am on record recognising that anti-semitism, alongside racism of all kinds, exists in every area of society, including on the Left and in Labour. I am also on record saying that it needs dealing with via the proper channels wherever it rears its ugly head. We must ensure this is addressed, and I recognise also the responsibility to be clear and direct in the language used around this, and as I have obviously discovered myself, there is a learning curve there for all of us.

Let me be clear, I did not nominate myself for this award, that was a member of the public. 

I did not shortlist myself for this award, that was Hope Not Hate.

And after this I won a democratic public vote acknowledging a decade spent fundraising for food banks, soup kitchens, homeless outreach, refugee and asylum seeker support, domestic violence units and youth projects. 

I did not put myself on that pedestal, nor did I ask to be placed there.

Today Hope Not Hate have contacted me offering the prize money regardless. I have asked them to split the £5000 five ways and share it among the other shortlisted nominees so that it is fighting racism, bigotry and intolerance in as many places as possible.

I am a Working Class Socialist Trade Unionist and I’m afraid taking that money after the abuse I have suffered this last 36 hours would be the equivalent of hanging my head in shame and crossing a picket line. Something I would not and could not do.

I am going through many emotions after being accused of the worst crimes against humanity. I am tired, angry and disappointed; but above all I am determined to raise the money I promised to community projects from this prize in the run up to Christmas. To this end I would ask your support and solidarity as I really need it right now.

Joe


----------



## ska invita (Nov 20, 2021)

is this the extent of teh accusations against him?#
only link i can find is in the times of israel


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is this the extent of teh accusations against him?#
> only link i can find is in the times of israel


Sounds like that's more or less the extent of it, found this from the Jewish News as well:








						Anti-racism charity pulls award for artist who supported former MP Chris Williamson
					

Hope Not Hate rescinds hero prize for activist and musician Joe Solo over social media posts in which he showed 'solidarity' with the disgraced pro-Corbyn former MP




					jewishnews.timesofisrael.com
				




Seems like this was the main other controversial post:




(that like in the screenshot isn't from me, ftr)


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Nov 20, 2021)

It’s the anti racists who are the real racists. 🙄


----------



## hitmouse (Nov 20, 2021)

2018/19 was pretty shit the first time around, depressing if all we have to look forward to is endless repetitions of it.

On the other hand, Jock Palfreeman being free is real proper good news, so that's something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> 2018/19 was pretty shit the first time around, depressing if all we have to look forward to is endless repetitions of it.


It'll make a change from the endless repetitions of 1939-45 - the second world war has dominated my life through ceaseless repeats of the Great escape, force ten from navarone, in which we serve, dambusters not to mention allo allo and dad's army etc etc


----------



## ska invita (Nov 20, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> 2018/19 was pretty shit the first time around, depressing if all we have to look forward to is endless repetitions of it.


i haven't noticed it stopping tbh - it seems a permanent fixture


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Sep 18, 2022)

Mobilisations developing against attempt to relaunch DFLA with March of assorted fascists, racists & reactionaries in London next weekend:


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2022)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> Mobilisations developing against attempt to relaunch DFLA with March of assorted fascists, racists & reactionaries in London next weekend:



Any details of the March please?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 21, 2022)

TopCat said:


> Any details of the March please?


Do you mean the counterprotest or the actual DFLA one?
The anti- one is meeting at 11am, Christchurch Gardens:


If you mean the other side, can't see anything on the DFLA facebook page but maybe everything's on telegram and whatsapp now?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Do you mean the counterprotest or the actual DFLA one?
> The anti- one is meeting at 11am, Christchurch Gardens:
> 
> Thanks. Yes I was after details of the DFLA demo. If it’s all on telegram it will be smaller probably. Less random blokes carrying ten cans of beer.
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Sep 21, 2022)

Dunno what happened there


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2022)

The weekend sounds like it wasn't super big or eventful, but not disastrous:


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 26, 2022)

Oh, and sounds like the organisers were the "Patriots of Britain".


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 29, 2022)

This all seems to have sparked off several days of depressing bickering on twitter between the FLAF and LAFA camps, not sure anyone comes out of it particularly well.


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 30, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> This all seems to have sparked off several days of depressing bickering on twitter between the FLAF and LAFA camps, not sure anyone comes out of it particularly well.


Had a look but couldn't see much. Got a link?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> This all seems to have sparked off several days of depressing bickering on twitter between the FLAF and LAFA camps, not sure anyone comes out of it particularly well.


That's twitter for you


----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Had a look but couldn't see much. Got a link?


sounds like best not to


----------



## Red Sky (Sep 30, 2022)

ska invita said:


> sounds like best not to


Ermmm thanks? FLAF not covering themselves with glory?


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2022)

FLAF now a 'broad church'


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Sep 30, 2022)

The39thStep said:


> FLAF now a 'broad church'



The ANL Squads? Who were they??


----------



## The39thStep (Sep 30, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> The ANL Squads? Who were they??


I can remember Manchester , NW London , West London , Bristol to name a few . Most of them gutted after the Leeds Carnival expulsions


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 30, 2022)

Red Sky said:


> Had a look but couldn't see much. Got a link?


I was going to say, as ska and pickman's suggest above, it's always best not to see much of anything happening on twitter, but if you must know it seems to start with this person having a dig here:


Which, after a few days of back-and-forth, escalates to this:


----------



## Sue (Sep 30, 2022)

Nonsense on twitter. Who gives a fuck? 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Serge Forward (Sep 30, 2022)

Good grief.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 30, 2022)

Larry O'Hara said:


> The ANL Squads? Who were they??


ANL mk 1?


----------



## hitmouse (Sep 30, 2022)

Sue said:


> Nonsense on twitter. Who gives a fuck? 🤷‍♀️


Fair point. Although having looked again, it looks like the conversation has been a bit more sensible today, so clearly my posting on urban75 yesterday saying that people on twitter were being a bit silly has done everyone a world of good.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 30, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> Fair point. Although having looked again, it looks like the conversation has been a bit more sensible today, so clearly my posting on urban75 yesterday saying that people on twitter were being a bit silly has done everyone a world of good.


You clearly have a calming effect 🤨


----------



## Red Sky (Oct 1, 2022)

hitmouse said:


> I was going to say, as ska and pickman's suggest above, it's always best not to see much of anything happening on twitter, but if you must know it seems to start with this person having a dig here:
> 
> 
> Which, after a few days of back-and-forth, escalates to this:




Had a look out of morbid curiosity.  
Idprole vs IdPol nonsense from people who weren't there


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 20, 2022)

ID Proles in action


----------

