# Combating hopelessness



## friendofdorothy (Jul 6, 2015)

I wasn't sure where to post this.

I realised recently that I'd been on more demos, marches and written more letters/signed petitions in the last 2 years or so than in the previous two decades.  (I used to do a lot of activist stuff back in the reign of Thatcher.)

So here we are again - the Torys, more austerity, more attacks on the NHS, the unemployed, the  poor, the ill and the disabled.   They are creating a deeply divisive society with ever increasing inequality between the 'haves and have nots' which sets everyone againgst each other. Its like being back in the gloom of 1980s - but much worse, with even less hope of any reprieve or change of govt policy. 

I keep hearing people say what the point of protest, it won't change anything - how do we combat that defeatism? 

Is anyone hopeful that this country can actually turn the tide and change for the better?  What can we actually do? what orgasations, protests, stategies or philosophies offer any hope of a fightback?

I realise that back the 80s I coped because:

I thought there was every chance the Tory govt would fall, or be voted out next time 

There was a lot of organised opposition to Thatcherism - from trade unions, political parties, terrorist groups and lots of single issue groups. 

There was some idealised idea of rainbow coalition -  that united the minorities could be the majority and win through to change things
I was young - I had the energy to fight and hadn't had all the hope worn out of me.

I beleived that you could win people over to your way of thinking by educating them one at a time.
None of those things apply now except the last one - which would suggest a long slog indeed.
I need ideas on how to face the struggle against the Torys and avoid depression and burnout.


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## Greebo (Jul 6, 2015)

I really have to be elsewhere at least an hour ago, but I'll say this much for now:

I'd rather go down fighting than go down without having even tried to stop what's happening.


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## ChrisD (Jul 6, 2015)

Back in the 1980's when the Tories got back in I organised  a  "bike away the blues" cycle ride.   This time on  May 8th  I just sat gloomily on my allotment. I'd welcome ideas to cheer me up for the next 4 years 9 months...


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 6, 2015)

ChrisD said:


> Back in the 1980's when the Tories got back in I organised  a  "bike away the blues" cycle ride.   This time on  May 8th  I just sat gloomily on my allotment. I'd welcome ideas to cheer me up for the next 4 years 9 months...


When Major got in I rearranged the furniture and fell out with my (ex) girlfriend. Don't want to do that again.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this.
> 
> I realised recently that I'd been on more demos, marches and written more letters/signed petitions in the last 2 years or so than in the previous two decades.  (I used to do a lot of activist stuff back in the reign of Thatcher.)



Mmm, you and me both, although for me it's the last 10 or so years after a relative break from the mid-90s-onward. 



> So here we are again - the Torys, more austerity, more attacks on the NHS, the unemployed, the  poor, the ill and the disabled.   They are creating a deeply divisive society with ever increasing inequality between the 'haves and have nots' which sets everyone againgst each other. Its like being back in the gloom of 1980s - but much worse, with even less hope of any reprieve or change of govt policy.
> 
> I keep hearing people say what the point of protest, it won't change anything - how do we combat that defeatism?



I use the same argument now as then - if you don't *try*, you certainly won't change anything.

I'm well aware of the "burn out" that activism brings, too, so we see comrades falling by the wayside, as well as Joe & Josephine Public despairing, but what else can we do but keep fighting until we can't fight anymore? 



> Is anyone hopeful that this country can actually turn the tide and change for the better?  What can we actually do? what orgasations, protests, stategies or philosophies offer any hope of a fightback?
> 
> I realise that back the 80s I coped because:
> 
> ...



I cope through looking to history. there are many examples of fightback against authoritarianism, everything from physical direct action to peaceful (but highly-embarrassing for the powers-that-be) protest. I believe that the "trick" is to use whatever format works, and sometimes that might mean going outside of the accepted "lets walk from point A to point B" beloved of the Socialist Workers' Party and their affiliates, and actually *inconveniencing* the lives of those directly responsible for our plight. I'm fairly sure I remember some of the peace-camp women doing some excellent work in the '80s, fetching up outside the residences of ministers - journos in tow, and giving the pols a dose of public humiliation. IIRC some of the animal rights crews ended up borrowing the idea.
I don't expect the world to change overnight (that'd be daft with 35+ years of adult life telling me otherwise!), but just making things shift by modest increments is acceptable to me in _lieu_ of a spontaneous revolution. Making your community aware, and helping your community(s) resist and keep on keeping on is as important as manning the barricades.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> When Major got in I rearranged the furniture and fell out with my (ex) girlfriend. Don't want to do that again.



When you say "re-arranged the furniture", are we talking "I calmly put each piece in a new location, resulting in a stunning new lifestyle setting in the living room/bedroom/dining room", or "I re-arranged the furniture into firewood"?


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 6, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> When you say "re-arranged the furniture", are we talking "I calmly put each piece in a new location, resulting in a stunning new lifestyle setting in the living room/bedroom/dining room", or "I re-arranged the furniture into firewood"?


I moved it about like rearranging the deckchairs on the Titanic. It didn't help our lifestyle at all.


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## Dogsauce (Jul 8, 2015)

The harder thing I find now is that in the 80s it felt like everyone hated the Tories, and they were just these old blue rinse ignoramuses and golf club bigots that would die out before long, that their way of thinking was in decline. To some extent, surrounded by other young people from normal schools and occasionally working in unionised workplaces, I was in my own bubble. Now with social media, newspaper comment sections etc. I'm far more aware that the abhorrent shit they believe in is widely accepted and proselytised and it can feel demoralising (despite suspecting a lot of it is organised campaigning by party members). Maybe it was always this way and I just didn't see it.


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

Talk to people, and keep the networks going as far as possible - it's not humanly possible for every single one of you/us to have a bad day at the same time.

Keep track of the small victories and celebrate them; think how few people actually made "home runs" on the Great Escape compared with the huge amount of time, trouble, embarrassment, and expense they caused to their captors.


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## Ming (Jul 8, 2015)

You're on the side of the angels mate. History is always a fight between right and wrong. Kindness against petty self interest. Tolerance against mindless prejudice. The rightwing don't play fair because they can't. They'd lose if they displayed their real hand.


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## oryx (Jul 8, 2015)

To me, this is the most important thread since Urban's been going.

There are two huge obstacles to overcome - one is the media peddling lies (e.g. about benefit claimants)  and the other is the lack of a unified left wing party to get behind. The latter was a problem in the 80s when I was more active than I am now.

With the first, we can challenge lies.

The second is more of an issue. I know, and I really hope I will be challenged on this as it will encourage more debate, but where is our Syriza or even our SNP?!

The really important question for me in contemporary British (sic) politics is - did the SNP win so many seats in Scotland because they had a more radical, anti-austerity agenda, or was it a nationalist thing? The vote against breaking away was No, quite recently, so one is tempted to assume the former. Someone on here suggested the Labour Party would do better if they veered sharply leftwards, and were a bit sneered at.

Some on here suggest the Labour Party are history.

Many that they have been history or ineffective since, well, history began.  Obviously it's not all about Labour, in any way.

Many that so-called parliamentary democracy is a farce, etc. etc.

There is hope, so let's talk about how to go about challenging this conformist claimant-demonising social cleansing marketised state we're in.


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## yield (Jul 8, 2015)

Good post oryx. The lack of a unified left wing party is not an obstacle.

They'd be forced by the establishment to moderate by carrot or stick.

Don't valorise Podemos, Syriza or SNP they're sure to disappoint.

Fight for sure. Never give an inch. Ultimately it's the people who decide; never the party.

The party only rides on the back of the people. 

"The twentieth century has been characterized by three developments of great political importance: the growth of democracy, the growth of corporate power, and the growth of corporate propaganda as a means of protecting corporate power against democracy'' - Alex Carey


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## David Clapson (Jul 8, 2015)

I honestly don't think there's any hope. Under the stewardship of Thatcher and Blair the bulk of the country has shifted to the right. It can't be pushed the other way because socialism is dead, the unions have no power and a huge chunk of the population are now homeowners, fretting about their equity, watching all those silly property porn shows, mired in self interest, dazzled by the wealth in the rich parts of London. Hardly anyone gives a damn about the issues described in this thread. The anti-austerity protests are just a pinprick on an elephant.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2015)

avoid absinthe


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## Chick Webb (Jul 8, 2015)

Dogsauce said:


> The harder thing I find now is that in the 80s it felt like everyone hated the Tories, and they were just these old blue rinse ignoramuses and golf club bigots that would die out before long, that their way of thinking was in decline. To some extent, surrounded by other young people from normal schools and occasionally working in unionised workplaces, I was in my own bubble. Now with social media, newspaper comment sections etc. I'm far more aware that the abhorrent shit they believe in is widely accepted and proselytised and it can feel demoralising (despite suspecting a lot of it is organised campaigning by party members). Maybe it was always this way and I just didn't see it.


Be really wary of taking the comments sections on articles as official polls on public opinion.  Nasty types tend to shout loudly in those forums and on some issues I'm pretty sure there are organised gangs of rightwingers attempting to take over the debate.  That's what I tell myself anyway.  I try not to read the comments a lot of the time.  Even seeing that there are 1,000 plus comments under certain articles depresses me.


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> avoid absinthe


Bollocks to that.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Bollocks to that.


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> I honestly don't think there's any hope. Under the stewardship of Thatcher and Blair the bulk of the country has shifted to the right. It can't be pushed the other way <snip>


So why are you here?  Why are you posting on the political, local news, current affairs threads of urban at all if you think there's no point and the cause(s) is/are FUBAR?


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## 19sixtysix (Jul 8, 2015)

Glad I've found this thread. I was thinking last night how absolutely depressing it looked outside at the moment. Tory government, the EU technocrats destroying greece, disabled friends finding it hard to eat. I personally am OK. I have the trappings of a good life. Job, flat, food on my plate etc but I know these are of no use when society is being tormented.  I think I'm more up for a fight than ever before. I just don't know who to punch. 

I have registered as union supporter to vote for Jeremy Corbin.
And watch the greek story unfold the speeches of EU commission president are making me think about of voting no at the referendum because I think I've seen enough of the EU as a capitalist club to know it will never be fixed. I like the idea of our common european home but it can not be one set up to allow the rich to abuse us all with their corporations.


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

Pickman's model the pictures you chose clearly show glasses which haven't yet been consumed, therefore the absinthe isn't to blame for any despondancy.  You're somebody whose job requires attention to detail, so I'm surprised you didn't notice that.

Right, back to the chores...


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## Pickman's model (Jul 8, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Pickman's model the pictures you chose clearly show glasses which haven't yet been consumed, therefore the absinthe isn't to blame for any despondancy.  You're somebody whose job requires attention to detail, so I'm surprised you didn't notice that.
> 
> Right, back to the chores...


it's their second glass


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## ibilly99 (Jul 8, 2015)

Since Larkin gets a mention on another thread here is his middle class bourgeois take on the ennui of existence. Porn mags and spanking his secretaries gave him some milestones to aim for. 

*Aubade*
By  Philip Larkin
I work all day, and get half-drunk at night. 
Waking at four to soundless dark, I stare. 
In time the curtain-edges will grow light. 
Till then I see what’s really always there: 
Unresting death, a whole day nearer now, 
Making all thought impossible but how 
And where and when I shall myself die. 
Arid interrogation: yet the dread
Of dying, and being dead,
Flashes afresh to hold and horrify.

The mind blanks at the glare. Not in remorse 
—The good not done, the love not given, time 
Torn off unused—nor wretchedly because 
An only life can take so long to climb
Clear of its wrong beginnings, and may never; 
But at the total emptiness for ever,
The sure extinction that we travel to
And shall be lost in always. Not to be here, 
Not to be anywhere,
And soon; nothing more terrible, nothing more true.

This is a special way of being afraid
No trick dispels. Religion used to try,
That vast moth-eaten musical brocade
Created to pretend we never die,
And specious stuff that says _No rational being 
Can fear a thing it will not feel,_ not seeing
That this is what we fear—no sight, no sound, 
No touch or taste or smell, nothing to think with, 
Nothing to love or link with,
The anaesthetic from which none come round.

And so it stays just on the edge of vision, 
A small unfocused blur, a standing chill 
That slows each impulse down to indecision. 
Most things may never happen: this one will, 
And realisation of it rages out
In furnace-fear when we are caught without 
People or drink. Courage is no good:
It means not scaring others. Being brave 
Lets no one off the grave.
Death is no different whined at than withstood.

Slowly light strengthens, and the room takes shape. 
It stands plain as a wardrobe, what we know, 
Have always known, know that we can’t escape, 
Yet can’t accept. One side will have to go.
Meanwhile telephones crouch, getting ready to ring 
In locked-up offices, and all the uncaring
Intricate rented world begins to rouse.
The sky is white as clay, with no sun.
Work has to be done.
Postmen like doctors go from house to house.


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> it's their second glass


"After the first glass of absinthe you see things as you wish they were. After the second you see them as they are not. Finally you see things as they really are, and that is the most horrible thing in the world. I mean disassociated. Take a top hat. You think you see it as it really is. But you don’t because you associate it with other things and ideas.If you had never heard of one before, and suddenly saw it alone, you’d be frightened, or you’d laugh." Oscar Wilde


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 8, 2015)

First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.

-- Ghandi


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## 8ball (Jul 8, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
> 
> -- Ghandi


 
It's just that the wrong side won.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 8, 2015)

8ball said:


> It's just that the wrong side won.



We're supposed to be cheering friendofdorothy up, remember?


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## 8ball (Jul 8, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> We're supposed to be cheering friendofdorothy up, remember?


 
D'Oh!!


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> We're supposed to be cheering friendofdorothy up, remember?


"I'd like for young people not to think of the people who were in the civil rights movement and [other] movements as special or somehow have something they don't have. Because we all started out with great innocence.

We were ordinary teenagers, and we were interested in changing something. And [we believed] that we can and that we must."

Minnijean Brown Trickney, one of The Little Rock Nine


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## Greebo (Jul 8, 2015)

“Impossible is just a big word thrown around by small men who find it easier to live in the world they've been given than to explore the power they have to change it. Impossible is not a fact. It's an opinion. Impossible is not a declaration. It's a dare. Impossible is potential. Impossible is temporary. Impossible is nothing.”

Muhammad Ali


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## Poot (Jul 8, 2015)

Well, if it's any help, some of us are too out of the loop/lazy/out in the sticks to join in your fight, but we're full of admiration and behind you 100%. Yes, I know it's a cop out but it's true.

I really should get more politically involved and nuts to what everyone else thinks but it's hard and in the meantime I'm grateful to you for doing so.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 8, 2015)

I went to a great wedding at the weekend for my friend and her girlfriend
long time coming but the moment came and it took a lot of fight over the years from them and many others to get there
never give up


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## mwgdrwg (Jul 8, 2015)

Don't let the bastards grind you down! x


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## Looby (Jul 8, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Pickman's model the pictures you chose clearly show glasses which haven't yet been consumed, therefore the absinthe isn't to blame for any despondancy.  You're somebody whose job requires attention to detail, so I'm surprised you didn't notice that.
> 
> Right, back to the chores...


A mate of mine drank a bottle of absinthe with his best friend and egged his own house (inside and out). He thought he'd got away with it until his mum move a painting to clean and there was an egg stain behind it. [emoji1]


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## Looby (Jul 8, 2015)

I've been feeling really hopeless for a while. I've been an active union rep for 10 years  but was dismissed from my job in April. Then the election happened and tbh since then I feel like I've lost all my fight. 
I'm hoping when I get to college in September and start feeling a bit better than I'll get involved again but I needed a break.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2015)

sparklefish said:


> I've been feeling really hopeless for a while. I've been an active union rep for 10 years  but was dismissed from my job in April. Then the election happened and tbh since then I feel like I've lost all my fight.
> I'm hoping when I get to college in September and start feeling a bit better than I'll get involved again but I needed a break.



Everyone does, and it's the sensible person that takes a break when it's needed, rather than after they've burned themselves out.


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## Wilf (Jul 8, 2015)

I've got to a point where I'm just involved in local stuff - anarcho and anti-austerity stuff.  Some involvement with those groups in national events, but largely working on community things, building a response, solidarity, some kind of fightback.  Yes, it is depressing and for someone of my age who has been involved in things since the late 70s it does feel like the class war has shifted pretty decisively, producing apathy and despair in equal measure. Same time, involvement in local direct action* does give you a sense that you can actually build things make a difference - in yourself, but also seeing new people coming in.  It's not much, but it's that thing about working in ways that prefigure the kind of society you want to create.

* not just illegal or even militant direct action, just the idea of setting things up yourself rather than getting representatives to do it.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 8, 2015)

This is such an important topic, thanks FoD. 

I'll be brief for now, have done a lot of thinking on it down the years...

I think much depression is caused in sensitive, caring people who see the sociopathic system which dominates modern life. It's like they risk their personal sanity becase broad society is itself rather insane. 

So a prime thing to consider and work on is the certainty that you / we are ethically and logically correct in the assertion of our values of humanity. Then, I believe, we need to maintain this basic dignity, or else they have kind of already won. Our smile and laughter is their defeat. The struggle against depression, in this sense, is political. It is in such ideas as mutual aid that we can find solutions. 

Kropotkin's work on this stands in stark contradiction to the social darwinists. Just becuase they are fairly dominant at the mo, doesn't mean we are nowhere, or that we will never make progress. But if we convince ourselves they have won, and have final victory, then we've done a fair amount of the work for them. 

This was written off top of head so forgive if it's a bit garbled.


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## treelover (Jul 9, 2015)

I think we are living through an historic period, tonight CH 4 showed a special doc on money laundering in London, "from Russia with Cash" they created a fake Russian(the brave guy is actually a Russian anti-corruption activist) to buy properties, he would tell the agent he was basically using pilfered public assets, money to pay for the properties, the agents went to great lengths to reassure him that he could be written out of the picture in terms of ownership. Experts on the programme, said the agents were basically committing criminal offences and they believed London was swimming in money laundered through expensive properties., this was on the day disabled people have lost thousands of pounds a year in social security. Its just so massive and imo not seen since the 19th C, sadly the 19th C left doesn't have a response, I wonder if someone eventually will


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 9, 2015)

Max Keiser has been saying for years that the London Property market is a prime vehicle for global money laundering.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Max Keiser has been saying for years that the London Property market is a prime vehicle for global money laundering.



Any booming property market is, and has been since finance globalised with the arrival of the telegraph.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 9, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Any booming property market is, and has been since finance globalised with the arrival of the telegraph.



Fair enough, but London for a bunch of reasons is a (if not the) world leader, and has been for some time. 

It is ordinary Londoners who are paying for this, suffocated by global crimewave, fully facilitated by successive "governments" who function as adjuncts of the crimewave.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 9, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Fair enough, but London for a bunch of reasons is a (if not the) world leader, and has been for some time.
> 
> It is ordinary Londoners who are paying for this, suffocated by global crimewave, fully facilitated by successive "governments" who function as adjuncts of the crimewave.



London has taken off in the last 8-9 years because of Blair's legislating for limited liability companies and partnerships. Alongside of "off the shelf" companies industry and the City's off-shoring abilities, this provides a very appealing format for "laundering" money.
That said, as soon as Maryland, Liechtenstein or similar jurisdictions enact similar legislation, they'll draw those flows of money away from the UK.


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## ibilly99 (Jul 9, 2015)

8ball said:


> D'Oh!!



Am oldy but goodie...



or for the more hippyish keep your eye on the bigger picture ...


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## bingiman (Jul 9, 2015)

Don't pretend you have all the answers. One of the problems with politics is the need (discredited elsewhere) to come up with all the answers at the very beginning of the process of change. 

Our goal is too big to imagine victory. Break the big problem, (in this case the system) into lots of small problems and come up with easy things you can do that will make a change. 

As someone said earlier on in the thread if there is enough of us we can't all be down or up at the same time. We need you and people like you. Don't give up. This is a long haul.


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## brixtonscot (Jul 10, 2015)

A couple of links from Plan C which maybe of use -
*Six Theses on Anxiety and Why It is Effectively Preventing Militancy, and One Possible Strategy for Overcoming It* 
http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/we-are-all-very-anxious/
*Consciousness raising*
This project comes from a desire to change the way we’re thinking about the world and about activism – to start from our experience and emotional states, to foreground issues like anxiety and subjectivity, to make those things a key part of and starting place for our strategy, and to have that inform our actions.
http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/c-is-for-consciousness-raising/


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 10, 2015)

Chick Webb said:


> Be really wary of taking the comments sections on articles as official polls on public opinion.  Nasty types tend to shout loudly in those forums and on some issues I'm pretty sure there are organised gangs of rightwingers attempting to take over the debate.  That's what I tell myself anyway.  I try not to read the comments a lot of the time.  Even seeing that there are 1,000 plus comments under certain articles depresses me.



It's not just organized gangs.  The Republican Party in the US actually pays people to be trolls on comment pages.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 10, 2015)

Wilf said:


> I've got to a point where I'm just involved in local stuff - anarcho and anti-austerity stuff.  Some involvement with those groups in national events, but largely working on community things, building a response, solidarity, some kind of fightback.  Yes, it is depressing and for someone of my age who has been involved in things since the late 70s it does feel like the class war has shifted pretty decisively, producing apathy and despair in equal measure. Same time, involvement in local direct action* does give you a sense that you can actually build things make a difference - in yourself, but also seeing new people coming in.  It's not much, but it's that thing about working in ways that prefigure the kind of society you want to create.
> 
> * not just illegal or even militant direct action, just the idea of setting things up yourself rather than getting representatives to do it.



I've been changing the way that I do things too.  I used to be an "in your face" protestor whenever I could get near a senator. Some of them still remember me.  I'd write letters and letters, show up at government meetings, etc....  These days, I try to be support staff for volunteers.  I do things like feed people or organize events.  I figure that even if what I did that day didn't end global climate change, at least I fed two dozen people.  I still write the occasional nasty-gram too.


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## Libertad (Jul 10, 2015)

This seems as good a place/time to remember the words of Emiliano Zapata and popularised by Dolores Ibárruri :

¡Más vale morir de pie que vivir de rodillas!

Much better to die on your feet than to live on your knees.


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## David Clapson (Jul 10, 2015)

I find it cheering that a self-described socialist is actually running for the US presidency and attracting big crowds to listen to him. If you do a Google News search for Bernie Sanders there's a lot of interesting stuff to read about the American so-called 'Left'. It's mind-boggling to Americans who've been brought up to believe that socialism is the same thing as Cuban or Soviet communism. 

Realistically I can't quite see how Sanders can give a fillip to the left over here. The chances of the new left in assorted countries forming a cohesive movement seem to me to be as remote as the Tories ever agreeing on Europe. Such a shame....when you add the new left in Europe to the truly progressive Americans you get quite a sizeable block of people.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> We're supposed to be cheering friendofdorothy up, remember?


 That's nice of you to say. Its been a horrible week for me.

I'm doing ok, I've been very fortunate personally, I have work, savings and a home  - I have a lot for which to be grateful. *I would feel happier if I knew there were homes, jobs and food for everyone*.

I know its fucking shite now, no need to add more to my gloom.   I don't want homilies or comedy on this thread, and no more talk of Absinth please. > knobbing & sobbing, wasting bandwidth, that way >

But I don't want just 'cheering' but I'm looking for some political hope, some agreement on how we can change anything. Thatchers hateful rhetoric and ideology is everywhere, and it usually goes unchallenged, young people don't even know there is any other way.

I grew up in 1960s in a merotcratic, socialist country. I was priveleged to benefit from a free health service that my parents hadn't had in their childhoods - I knew I was alive because of it. There was jobs for everyone, and decent wages. Unions were winning better hours and conditions for workers. There weren't enough good houses but they were building more. We knew luxuries our grandparents had never dreamed of (new shoes, TV and an annual trip to Butlins!)  We got a free education, and we could go to poly or uni if we had the brains. My mother hoped we'd get better jobs than they ever could. The welfare state was there as a safety net for when things went wrong, to look after us from cradle to grave. Living in a small town in the north was no problem - we were still at the centre of the industrial revolution, with our 'white hot heat of technology', George Best played for Manchester and the Beatles were no1 - it was the centre of the world.  Science was finding cures for everthing and man was going to the moon - it was exciting!  (this may not have told the whole picture - but this was what I saw around me as a girl).

I was 2 months too young to vote against Thatcher in 1979. Her 'managed decline' to close the north, to rid our country of heavy industry and strong unions. She deregulated everthing to allow banks and the finance industry and she sold off our national assets at reduced prices. Unemployment became a price we have to pay for her misguided monetrist dreams.  UB40s 'I am the 1 in 10' was already an underestimate by the time I left the north with its 50% unemployment. She gave away the proceeds of North Sea Oil to higher tax earners. There was always someone to speak out against all these these things and usually a song in the charts against it.

Now there are outrages against the poorest and weakest in our country all time.  Corruption seems endemic.  Govt serving the interests of big business and foreign property investors over ordinary people. Why do the vast majority of people not seem to know or care what is happening?  Where is the opposition now? where is the left? where is the fight? How do you face this - how are you organising? Tell me about that.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

oryx said:


> To me, this is the most important thread since Urban's been going.
> 
> There are two huge obstacles to overcome - one is the media peddling lies (e.g. about benefit claimants)  and the other is the lack of a unified left wing party to get behind. The latter was a problem in the 80s when I was more active than I am now.
> 
> With the first, we can challenge lies.


Thanks.   Media lies, how do we challenge them? -
We can certainly highlight them to each other here on Urban. Thats a good start. I think we do this well.
Perhaps others can use twitter/fb /other forums to challenge the govt message? I'm not that much into social media - how do think that is going? I keep hearing about the most stupid, mysogynist, violent trolling. Is there an intellegent lefty debate out there?

I think we must reject and challenge the govt /media use of language - don't use 'shirkers' 'hard wrorking families' don't use their lazy and oppressive cliches.

We must remember millions of people read the mostly Tory newpapers and swallow what they say whole without chewing it over at all. Theres a lot older Tory voting readers who believe all that shit. How do we communicate with those people? how do we challenge messages they have been drip fed daily for over 30 years. Ok I'm still doing the try to win over one at a time thing - any other ideas?



oryx said:


> The second is more of an issue. I know, and I really hope I will be challenged on this as it will encourage more debate, but where is our Syriza or even our SNP?!
> 
> There is hope, so let's talk about how to go about challenging this conformist claimant-demonising social cleansing marketised state we're in.


good question.
Torys have dragged most of parliament so far right - only Plaid cymru and SNP sound left to me, and I can't vote for them in London.  I've given up reading about the labour party - after war-mongering Blair I find it so depressing- is there anything/anyone worth listening to now?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

Dogsauce said:


> The harder thing I find now is that in the 80s it felt like everyone hated the Tories, and they were just these old blue rinse ignoramuses and golf club bigots that would die out before long, that their way of thinking was in decline. To some extent, surrounded by other young people from normal schools and occasionally working in unionised workplaces, I was in my own bubble. Now with social media, newspaper comment sections etc. I'm far more aware that the abhorrent shit they believe in is widely accepted and proselytised and it can feel demoralising (despite suspecting a lot of it is organised campaigning by party members). Maybe it was always this way and I just didn't see it.


see #50 above I think there was more general opposition in '80s, everywhere, in the street, in music on TV. The unions have had so many powers stripped from them now. News papers weren't so homogenised they didn't all say the same party line - even the Tory ones. 

But it wasn't all blue rinse brigade that voted tory back then - she bought the working classes too with talk of controling inflation and buying your own council house.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

yield said:


> Good post oryx. The lack of a unified left wing party is not an obstacle.
> 
> They'd be forced by the establishment to moderate by carrot or stick.
> 
> ...


I've never been keen on party politics - never been a member of any of them.  
I beleive in people (a party politico laughed in my face when I said that once, shows what she thought of the people)
- but I do think we're being miss-led and having the wool pulled over our eyes by a govt and system that wants us to scapegoat some weak targets and divide us so that we just fight each other (just look at some threads on here)

I think all authority govt, police, bosses, whatever - are dependant on our willingness to trust them, and forget they serve us too at their peril. 

Fight? never an inch of what? fight who and how.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then you win.
> 
> -- Ghandi


 I think that the idea of passive resistance and civil disobedience are very powerful. Sitting down in the road and refusing to move is a powerful thing. I think it says so much more than violence.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

sparklefish said:


> I've been feeling really hopeless for a while. I've been an active union rep for 10 years  but was dismissed from my job in April. Then the election happened and tbh since then I feel like I've lost all my fight.
> I'm hoping when I get to college in September and start feeling a bit better than I'll get involved again but I needed a break.


 Thats why I started this thread. You sound like you need a rest, like I said I've taken a break for the better part of 2 deacades.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> This is such an important topic, thanks FoD.
> 
> I'll be brief for now, have done a lot of thinking on it down the years...
> 
> ...


 Thank you I think life now and the 'system' is increasing insane, especially now the govt are pathologising unemployment with their language and policies and utterly mixing up the issues of mental health and unemployment in a dangerous way (theres a thread about that here somewhere). 

Human dignity is being stripped from so many and it saddens and angers me. I feel a must shout because those being targeted are those least able to shout like the mentally ill.

I'm also making sure I get out socially to keep sane and enjoy myself because enjoyment, community activity and conversation are so important. (To those who know me it may look like like I'm getting pissed - actually I'm practising solidarity, and doing my bit to preserve the fine british tradition of pub culture- honest)

I'm not familliar with Kropotkins work - can you quote/ link to something relavant. ta.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

David Clapson said:


> I find it cheering that a self-described socialist is actually running for the US presidency and attracting big crowds to listen to him. If you do a Google News search for Bernie Sanders there's a lot of interesting stuff to read about the American so-called 'Left'. It's mind-boggling to Americans who've been brought up to believe that socialism is the same thing as Cuban or Soviet communism.
> 
> Realistically I can't quite see how Sanders can give a fillip to the left over here. The chances of the new left in assorted countries forming a cohesive movement seem to me to be as remote as the Tories ever agreeing on Europe. Such a shame....when you add the new left in Europe to the truly progressive Americans you get quite a sizeable block of people.


I wish our govt would stop looking to the US for inspiration too


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

Wilf said:


> I've got to a point where I'm just involved in local stuff - anarcho and anti-austerity stuff.  Some involvement with those groups in national events, but largely working on community things, building a response, solidarity, some kind of fightback.  Yes, it is depressing and for someone of my age who has been involved in things since the late 70s it does feel like the class war has shifted pretty decisively, producing apathy and despair in equal measure. Same time, involvement in local direct action* does give you a sense that you can actually build things make a difference - in yourself, but also seeing new people coming in.  It's not much, but it's that thing about working in ways that prefigure the kind of society you want to create.
> 
> * not just illegal or even militant direct action, just the idea of setting things up yourself rather than getting representatives to do it.


yes, local stuff feels more achievable - its great to organise something free, non corporate knit-your-own-fun sort of thing, thats a great feeling. We had a street party a few years ago - the joy at seeing all the cars gone and everyone in the middle of the road was liberating - like kids riding their bikes down their own street for the first time. Chatting with neighbours after dark on a sofa on the pavement was fab. Ms Ordinary - don't let the Neighbourhood Watch win in your street!

My Girlf says we should do more small anarchic acts, though I'm not sure what she means yet.  
What sort of thing do you have in mind?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

bingiman said:


> Don't pretend you have all the answers. One of the problems with politics is the need (discredited elsewhere) to come up with all the answers at the very beginning of the process of change.
> 
> Our goal is too big to imagine victory. Break the big problem, (in this case the system) into lots of small problems and come up with easy things you can do that will make a change.
> 
> As someone said earlier on in the thread if there is enough of us we can't all be down or up at the same time. We need you and people like you. Don't give up. This is a long haul.


well said. I'd quite forgotten, so thank you for the reminder. People like me are who though? I keep hearing on these threads that this or that sort of person is not welcome, well on the Brixton threads anyway - like only local born people who are oppressed or disadvantaged in some way need apply, I have a a job, a home, some money - am I still welcome?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 10, 2015)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I went to a great wedding at the weekend for my friend and her girlfriend
> long time coming but the moment came and it took a lot of fight over the years from them and many others to get there
> never give up


Yes - this was one of the small bits I campaigned for back in the '80s. In my first few years in London I hardly knew or met any gay men. Thatcher's homophobia effectively brought all sorts of queer people together who who nothing in common prior to Clause 28 - and yes we won in the end. Personally it makes me sick to hear Cameron saying that he beleives in same sex marriage because he's a Tory (perhaps I'm just being curlish)

But now Torys are picking upon the disabled, the illest and the weakest people - who have less physical, mental and finacial ability to get together and fight. I think most of the public have bought into the people pretending to be ill & robbing benefits idea.  I see so little opposition to it - are there many groups challenging this?


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## oryx (Jul 11, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I grew up in 1960s in a merotcratic, socialist country. I was priveleged to benefit from a free health service that my parents hadn't had in their childhoods - I knew I was alive because of it. There was jobs for everyone, and decent wages. Unions were winning better hours and conditions for workers. There weren't enough good houses but they were building more. We knew luxuries our grandparents had never dreamed of (new shoes, TV and an annual trip to Butlins!)  We got a free education, and we could go to poly or uni if we had the brains. My mother hoped we'd get better jobs than they ever could. The welfare state was there as a safety net for when things went wrong, to look after us from cradle to grave. Living in a small town in the north was no problem - we were still at the centre of the industrial revolution, with our 'white hot heat of technology', George Best played for Manchester and the Beatles were no1 - it was the centre of the world.  Science was finding cures for everthing and man was going to the moon - it was exciting!  (this may not have told the whole picture - but this was what I saw around me as a girl).



I can SO identify with this and was planning on posting something similar. For our generation there was also the strong influence of the post-war NHS & social care system where everything was free (NHS specs anyone? they weren't the most stylish but they did the job & were free  and the milk snatched by you-know-who).

There was also the 70s where unions were strong. Even some left wing people go on about the unions at that time being 'too strong'........but then, certainly in the public sector in the 80s, good working conditions had been mainly won. You had rights at work which have since been quietly and acquiescently eroded. Just a small example - in the sector I work in (housing) you got time and a half for anti-social hours - that's long gone and you're expected to be overjoyed that you're working at all.  I am aware that there was racism and sexism within unions in this era so not pretending it was an ideal world.

In the Thatcher era there was organised resistance, much more than there is now, IMHO, and more of a sense of hope. That legacy of the post-war era was still there in terms of more protection for workers, a better safety net for those out of work (the overwhelming majority of people want to work and there was a trust that you would look for viable work and literally 'sign' on if you needed to without harassment or fake training, run by some profiteering outsourcing company - in fact said shitty profiteering outsourcing companies, if not unheard of, were largely absent then, across all sectors).

I find it really upsetting that all the things people fought for and many of which achieved some realisation in the mid-20th century - workers' rights, nationalised industries with no profit going to shareholders, free healthcare and a financial safety net - are being, or have been eroded. And we're already seeing an increase in street homelessness and slum landlordism (beds in sheds anyone?)

There are two things giving me hope at the moment - the SNP in Scotland and their success with an anti-austerity agenda, and the number of very young people involved in what could broadly be termed the resistance. A lot of them at the rally on 20 June and just anecdotally - some of my friends' kids and other young people I know involved in left wing politics, and this is probably a trend. I hope it is.

A lot more to say on this re party politics etc....


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've never been keen on party politics - never been a member of any of them.
> I beleive in people (a party politico laughed in my face when I said that once, shows what she thought of the people)



Some party political people, generally in elected positions, see people entirely instrumentally - as a mechanism by which the politico furthers their career.



> - but I do think we're being miss-led and having the wool pulled over our eyes by a govt and system that wants us to scapegoat some weak targets and divide us so that we just fight each other (just look at some threads on here)



Scapegoating is the oldest political trick in the book, and unfortunately the easiest one to pull off, because all you have to do is work out which group it's most convenient to scapegoat on which occasion.
As for in-fighting, I've always seen it as handy. It allows you to refine your arguments before presenting them to a wider public. The only in-fighters I dislike are those whose main contribution is to say "you can't do that", and I dislike them because they rarely (if ever) elucidate a decent argument as to why something shouldn't be or can't be done.



> I think all authority govt, police, bosses, whatever - are dependant on our willingness to trust them, and forget they serve us too at their peril.



Agreed. It goes deeper than that too, though.
One of the fundamentals  on which the European ideal of democracy is based, is the concept of a social contract or compact between the ruled and the rulers - that they govern/police/boss because we consent that they do so. We cede certain collective rights on the understanding that we receive certain protections. If the state erodes those protections (social security, shelter, health services etc), then they breach that contract/compact, and need to consider that the legitimacy of their power over us is questionable and flawed. We *know* what happens when people withdraw their consent to be policed, and "they" know what happens too - their system stops working, as situations as varied as the Poll Tax protests and riots, and the UK Uncut protests have shown.



> Fight? never an inch of what? fight who and how.



Fight the power, however you can.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> My Girlf says we should do more small anarchic acts, though I'm not sure what she means yet.
> What sort of thing do you have in mind?



She's right.
For me that'd mean small acts of chaos and/or subversion work well, and it can be anything from subtly altering a bit of state/council/govt propaganda on a notice board to change the meaning, to (example from youth here) filling the locks of the local NF honcho's front door with glue, to spontaneously demonstrating at a councillor or council officer who is causing local problems when you see them in public.
Buscador's mileage may vary, though!


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2015)

oryx said:


> I can SO identify with this and was planning on posting something similar. For our generation there was also the strong influence of the post-war NHS & social care system where everything was free (NHS specs anyone? they weren't the most stylish but they did the job & were free  and the milk snatched by you-know-who).
> 
> There was also the 70s where unions were strong. Even some left wing people go on about the unions at that time being 'too strong'........but then, certainly in the public sector in the 80s, good working conditions had been mainly won. You had rights at work which have since been quietly and acquiescently eroded. Just a small example - in the sector I work in (housing) you got time and a half for anti-social hours - that's long gone and you're expected to be overjoyed that you're working at all.  I am aware that there was racism and sexism within unions in this era so not pretending it was an ideal world.
> 
> In the Thatcher era there was organised resistance, much more than there is now, IMHO, and more of a sense of hope. That legacy of the post-war era was still there in terms of more protection for workers, a better safety net for those out of work (the overwhelming majority of people want to work and there was a trust that you would look for viable work and literally 'sign' on if you needed to without harassment or fake training, run by some profiteering outsourcing company - in fact said shitty profiteering outsourcing companies, if not unheard of, were largely absent then, across all sectors).



Thatcherism brought with it a concerted effort by the state and the government to indoctrinate people - mostly through a compliant right-wing oriented media - into feeling that trade unionism and union membership were "bad", that they were somehow creepy and subversive; into feeling that leftism, or even Labourism was somehow "wrong"/unpatriotic. This indoctrination has had 35 years to take root, and even though the application of a little bit of critical thinking shows it up for the transparent load of arse-nuggets that it is, it's become the default setting for some people.



> I find it really upsetting that all the things people fought for and many of which achieved some realisation in the mid-20th century - workers' rights, nationalised industries with no profit going to shareholders, free healthcare and a financial safety net - are being, or have been eroded. And we're already seeing an increase in street homelessness and slum landlordism (beds in sheds anyone?)



Workers' rights, nationalised industries, free healthcare and a social safety net are inimical to the neoliberalism that Thatcher set in train. Homelessness and slum landlordism aren't.



> There are two things giving me hope at the moment - the SNP in Scotland and their success with an anti-austerity agenda, and the number of very young people involved in what could broadly be termed the resistance. A lot of them at the rally on 20 June and just anecdotally - some of my friends' kids and other young people I know involved in left wing politics, and this is probably a trend. I hope it is.
> 
> A lot more to say on this re party politics etc....



I think the SNP provide a good example of the establishment being shaken up, but I don't think they hold a solution to the above-mentioned problem. They're part of the Parliamentary system, and too small to force reform or change.
In my personal opinion, parliamentary politics, and the concept of Parliamentary Democracy, are busted flushes. Our Parliamentary Democracy validates what is effectively elected dictatorship - a party voted into power has no obligation whatsoever to abide by any promises it makes or has made prior to winning power, no accountability at all to local, regional or national electorates, and no requirement to justify decisions that cause social harm. This has always been the case, but is especially germane now that the major parties all share the core neoliberal values. All our votes do is validate these muppets and their system.
What's the alternative,then? Same as it ever was - organise outside of their confines, look after ourselves and our communities, and refuse to engage with power that has no accountability.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 12, 2015)

brixtonscot said:


> A couple of links from Plan C which maybe of use -
> *Six Theses on Anxiety and Why It is Effectively Preventing Militancy, and One Possible Strategy for Overcoming It*
> http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/we-are-all-very-anxious/
> *Consciousness raising*
> ...


Sorry, thanks for posting those links - I've only just got around to reading them (its been a really shitty week for me)
Very interesting - heres a snip for those who haven't read the link:



> This project comes from a desire to change the way we’re thinking about the world and about activism – to start from our experience and emotional states, to foreground issues like anxiety and subjectivity, to make those things a key part of and starting place for our strategy, and to have that inform our actions.
> 
> *So what is it? – A tool from our collective past*
> 
> 70s socialist feminism has a special place in Plan C’s collective heart. It’s one of the things that makes many of us like the organisation so much, and hope that it has the potential to be of some real use in recomposing a left which is adequate to its task of destroying contemporary capitalism. We read and admire their praxis. Now we want to try taking hold of one of their most powerful, and central, tools for developing theory and action: consciousness raising.


CR groups as they were called were still the place to start with feminism when I was young. Spare Rib used to have a list of them I recall.  I joined one in 1981. It put me in touch with women who had such different views of the world, and in touch with new ideas and new theories. The personal was political. It did feel empowering.  I supposed each in our own way we did change our own lives and collectively we have changed the world. Well a bit.  brixtonscot have you tried this - or would you like to? Anyone else?



> *We Are All Very Anxious*
> *Six Theses on Anxiety and Why It is Effectively Preventing Militancy, and One Possible Strategy for Overcoming It*


here's a bit from:   http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/we-are-all-very-anxious/


> *6:  Current tactics and theories aren’t working.  We need new tactics and theories to combat anxiety.*
> 
> During periods of mobilisation and effective social change, people feel a sense of empowerment, the ability to express themselves, a sense of authenticity and de-repression or dis-alienation which can act as an effective treatment for depression and psychological problems; a kind of peak experience. It is what sustains political activity.


There's a lot to read there and I don't pretend to understand with it all, but it does sound interesting.  Anyone else read it all? interesting in discussing it?


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 12, 2015)

I like these slogans from Plan C: 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			









From Plan C on the anti-austerity march


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## brixtonscot (Jul 12, 2015)

friendofdorothy....no I haven't tried a consciousness raising group yet , but I have been in touch with Plan C and they have a CR going , though are not accepting new members to it at the moment in order to build personal trust amongst those participating. So it was suggested it could be possible to set up another CR group for those interested.....so if there is interest on here , we could maybe get another one going


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## Grace Johnson (Jul 12, 2015)

When we fully realise what we are fighting against it is so hard to maintain any hope at all, I mean, they control the schools, the media, the banks, the war machine, the prisons, the roads...  even the hospitals. It's overwhelming.

These days, I think...

All you can do is maintain your dignity the best way you can. For some people that means gettin out on protests and scraping, for some people that means trying to manage a live of the grid and some people just try to raise their families to be fighters and question the way we live.

But even if we are all hopelessly fucked by the world we live in and maybe nothing will change  ....  As long as we can maintain our dignity and our humanity, then we have something that is truly ours. Maybe, that is all we can do.... so, we can only keep fighting because that is the only response to such horrific oppression that is dignified and human. 

I think it is quite probably hopeless because I know that the system I live in will kill me.....  but I'm going out swinging......


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## zxspectrum (Jul 12, 2015)

I don't feel very hopeful at all.

I dare say I shall live out my days seeing no real change. Maybe something exciting will happen in 2020, but that's just wishful thinking. There is no opposition of any real strength and populist groups don't seem very good at anything bar grabbing some attention. The discourse however is stitched up by the mainstream media who routinely invite on idiots to continue propaganda. It just never ends and has reached a point where anyone who dissents from that propaganda is seen as being ridiculous and can't be taken seriously. People's perceptions, not facts, are given credence in the name of 'common sense'.

I was born in the 70's and grew up in the 80's for the most part. During that period there was none of the technology we have today. I and people of my generation I believe have straddled a cultural and technological shift that people now take for granted. This makes it difficult to compete in the modern labour market and for skills; with the last edifice of a free education system now being dismantled that consigns someone like me even more to the scrapheap. Training opportunities are non existent, the Work Programme is a sham, and even then getting training doesn't guarantee anything. You are expected to be like Dragons Den and be a self made man; if you fail at that then you deserve your poverty and no help should be forthcoming. That's the message.

The future looks very bleak for all sorts of people, particularly the youth. Despite being born in an internet mass communication tech-rich era it's still only an assumption - prejudice - that people all have expensive phones/computers/playsations if they are unemployed.

I think it's going to take a lot more than wacky protest from hipster groups and well meaning but well off progressive types. Even in local council people like the Green party, whom i have otherwise a lot of time for, are failing; they are selling out and doing nothing (just look at Bristol - or even Brighton, as despite a minority council they have copped a lot of flak iirc). I think we need stronger and more direct action, but unfortunately the stomach for that just isn't there...yet?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2015)

zxspectrum
I get what you're saying, but I believe we have ample historic evidence that even when the dice were more loaded against us than now, we've still managed to achieve things - the fact of trade unionism, and of the "universal franchise" are clear indications of that. Change seldom comes quickly or easily, but it does come.
As for direct action, the stomach has always been there, but (as ever) there are always obfuscating factors, often involving political organisations who benefit more from touting and retaining the _status quo_, than driving *actual real revolutionary change*.


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## zxspectrum (Jul 12, 2015)

Hopefully things will improve, but I thought that during the Coalition and nothing did. I had hopes that Universal Credit for exmaple would blow up in IDS' face and he would get the sack or something. How naive of me!

The struggles we face today seem unprecedented: we have a Tory majority, even a thin one, that's planning to gut society as never before. We have TTIP and we face the end of a lot of institutions we have accepted as part of our lives: the NHS, the welfare state for example. The unparalleled gap between rich and poor is as never before. 

The power most cerainly lies with the people and if the will was there we could easily send the Tories packing. But, as unprecedented as the struggles we face, is the strength of mass media, working to keep people anaesthetised and soporific. People now, at least IME, just think that, if you speak out on issues, you're just a tedious old socialist troll, or you are to be scorned for being a scrounger or an apologis for - t use a term someone put to me on Google plus the other day in respect of the budget - 'land whales' who shit out kids just to get on the dole. 

Maybe at some point in the near future it will change. Maybe this budget was a step too far that will be a tipping point. But i'm not so sure.


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## ChrisD (Jul 12, 2015)

here's a bit from:   [URL said:
			
		

> http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/we-are-all-very-anxious/[/URL]
> 
> There's a lot to read there and I don't pretend to understand with it all, but it does sound interesting.  Anyone else read it all? interesting in discussing it?



I'm sure I have a lot of common cause with them but their academic sociological language puts me off (& I have 3 degrees).

Thanks for this thread though.  Last week I was standing in my provincial city at an anti-austerity rally which was poorly attended (more shoppers looking on bemused than protesters).  I was thinking that I've attended so many such events over the last 35 or so years and now I'm the white bearded old bloke standing glumly at the back when I used to be the ginger haired agitator at the front.  The difference is now there are photos of the protest on social media so I can see how bloody old I now look.

I haven't quite given up but I've lost my enthusiasm.	 Come on Urban -  revitalize me please!


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## Greebo (Jul 12, 2015)

ChrisD said:


> <snip> I haven't quite given up but I've lost my enthusiasm.	 Come on Urban -  revitalize me please!


Okay then, I'll tell you that things on this estate have gone from looking as though we were fighting a losing battle (on our own) to looking as though we may just about have a realistic chance of winning (and others think our problem is theirs too).  Not out of danger yet, but there's still a better chance than if nobody had even tried to oppose and resist the council's attempt to push us into regeneration.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> Hopefully things will improve, but I thought that during the Coalition and nothing did. I had hopes that Universal Credit for exmaple would blow up in IDS' face and he would get the sack or something. How naive of me!
> 
> The struggles we face today seem unprecedented: we have a Tory majority, even a thin one, that's planning to gut society as never before. We have TTIP and we face the end of a lot of institutions we have accepted as part of our lives: the NHS, the welfare state for example. The unparalleled gap between rich and poor is as never before.
> 
> ...



"Change doesn't come without struggle" is perhaps not as well-known a sentiment as it used to be, as I'm well-aware of people who moan like fuck, but can never stir themselves to even e-mail their councillors or MP, let alone march; let alone do community activism of any kind; let alone give a shit about anyone but themselves -  it's THAT attitude that is what we're struggling against as much as apathy and a lying, soporific media.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2015)

ChrisD said:


> I'm sure I have a lot of common cause with them but their academic sociological language puts me off (& I have 3 degrees).



Apparently, so did Prince Charles!
And remember, folks: If one of your degrees is an MBA, it doesn't count! 



> Thanks for this thread though.  Last week I was standing in my provincial city at an anti-austerity rally which was poorly attended (more shoppers looking on bemused than protesters).  I was thinking that I've attended so many such events over the last 35 or so years and now I'm the white bearded old bloke standing glumly at the back when I used to be the ginger haired agitator at the front.  The difference is now there are photos of the protest on social media so I can see how bloody old I now look.
> 
> I haven't quite given up but I've lost my enthusiasm.	 Come on Urban -  revitalize me please!



At least you're not the white-bearded bloke selling copies of "Socialist Worker"!
And stop worrying about looking old!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 12, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> but can never stir themselves to even e-mail their councillors or MP



my MP is a massive tory twunt.  i don't see any bloody point.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2015)

Puddy_Tat said:


> my MP is a massive tory twunt.  i don't see any bloody point.



The point isn't that your single post is likely to cause change - IMO it's never been about that, at least for the last 50 years or so - it's that your single piece of mail may be part of a steady flow of similar pieces of mail to that MP, and they may get so fed up with you and others bothering them that they actually look into it, if only to shut you filthy oiks up!
I'm a firm believer in the power of annoyance.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 12, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The point isn't that your single post is likely to cause change - IMO it's never been about that, at least for the last 50 years or so - it's that your single piece of mail may be part of a steady flow of similar pieces of mail to that MP, and they may get so fed up with you and others bothering them that they actually look into it, if only to shut you filthy oiks up!
> I'm a firm believer in the power of annoyance.



Amnesty International got some significant results by using this principle.


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## smokedout (Jul 12, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> But now Torys are picking upon the disabled, the illest and the weakest people - who have less physical, mental and finacial ability to get together and fight. I think most of the public have bought into the people pretending to be ill & robbing benefits idea.  I see so little opposition to it - are there many groups challenging this?



Yes Disabled People Against Cuts and Boycott Workfare - both hold regular london protests, also London Coalition Against Poverty, and on related notes Class War, Streets Kitchen and South London Housing Action

Theres a fairly out of date list here, I plan to update, will post a link to this thread when I have


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2015)

8ball said:


> Amnesty International got some significant results by using this principle.



They did indeed, and still do.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 12, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The point isn't that your single post is likely to cause change - IMO it's never been about that, at least for the last 50 years or so - it's that your single piece of mail may be part of a steady flow of similar pieces of mail to that MP, and they may get so fed up with you and others bothering them that they actually look into it, if only to shut you filthy oiks up!
> I'm a firm believer in the power of annoyance.



I suspect that his staff filter letters by rateable value before they decide whether to bin them or not.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2015)

You know what gets up my nose?  It's the person who comes up to you when leafletting etc and says "I feel so much better for seeing you do it, but there's no way I can ever do anything like that..."

Guess what?  I'm not overblessed with free time or energy, I'm neither rich, nor photogenic, nor well connected (at least in the sense of having power and contacts with the so-called movers & shakers).  I dislike dealing with the public, and giving interviews is draining.  OTOH there are times when my comfort is far less important than what's at stake.  If you absolutely can't do this, FFS find something you can do which matches your skills and personality.

If not you, then who?  etc.  </soapbox>


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Yes - this was one of the small bits I campaigned for back in the '80s. In my first few years in London I hardly knew or met any gay men. Thatcher's homophobia effectively brought all sorts of queer people together who who nothing in common prior to Clause 28 - and yes we won in the end. Personally it makes me sick to hear Cameron saying that he beleives in same sex marriage because he's a Tory (perhaps I'm just being curlish)
> 
> But now Torys are picking upon the disabled, the illest and the weakest people - who have less physical, mental and finacial ability to get together and fight. I think most of the public have bought into the people pretending to be ill & robbing benefits idea. * I see so little opposition to it - are there many groups challenging this*?



There are some, but the support they get is limited, the group I helped set up folded because of this.


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2015)

> if you speak out on issues, you're just a tedious old socialist troll, or you are to be scorned for being a scrounger or an apologis for - t use a term someone put to me on Google plus the other day in respect of the budget - 'land whales' who shit out kids just to get on the dole.



That is disgusting and should be reported as hate post, the kippers, misanthropes, eugenicists are all over social media and the constant repetition of their bile is over time being seen as 'common sense' and a valid opinion, the only real mass social media site that can challenge this is 'Another Angry Voice, where such views are seen off rapidly. Unlike others, I think this terrain is significant, (Gramsci would have acknowledged it) and many posters on S/M sites are recoiling and leaving the field and politics in some cases in a state of shock.


----------



## treelover (Jul 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Apparently, so did Prince Charles!
> And remember, folks: If one of your degrees is an MBA, it doesn't count!
> 
> 
> ...



That's the majority of them now, well grey haired.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 14, 2015)

I need to not read the news for a few days now. My anger levels are through the roof atm.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jul 14, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> That's nice of you to say. Its been a horrible week for me.
> 
> I'm doing ok, I've been very fortunate personally, I have work, savings and a home  - I have a lot for which to be grateful. *I would feel happier if I knew there were homes, jobs and food for everyone*.
> 
> ...



Sorry, it took a bit to get back to you.  I'm sorry too that I'm going to disappoint.

I don't have any real answers and I get discouraged too.  Right now we have a new Governor who is revamping our social services department.  He hired new managers from that utopia for the poor:  Arkansas.  So far they've proposed testing poor people for drugs and making the unemployed sign a contract on what they're going to do to get employed.  Any deviation from the plan and they pull your benefits.  Like they were easy to get anyway.  It's just another way of humiliating people.  Meanwhile we had 22 homeless people die on our streets last year.  That was double the previous year.  This year we're on track to break last year's record.

I try to savor the few places where we make progress.  After years of lobbying we're getting most of what we were wanting from our local electric provider.  They've got the funding and started building projects that will put us at 50% renewables by 2020.  We actually did that by capturing the public body that oversees it.  All of those posts are appointed by the mayor and we did a lot of contact with him until he started appointing our candidates for the board.  We've got about half of it locked down.  The rest are Chamber of Commerce types.  If you show them where they'll benefit, they're all over it (the greedy bastards).  I know it sounds easy, but I've been working on these exact issues since the mid-80s.  And we still have the other 50% to go.

I also try to hang out with people that share my views at least part of the time.  I live in a very, very red state in the US. So you have to hang out with people who make you feel that you're not crazy, even though everyone else is.  And sometimes, I just have to ditch the phone and go off-grid for while.  Grab the backpack and the hiking boots and get out of Dodge.

See, no real answers here.  I do have this feeling that something is major is going to break soon.  You can't have this level of poverty and dissatisfaction that isn't being addressed without an reaction a some point.  A friend of mine made the point this week that Social Security isn't security for the poor and old, it's security for the rich so the poor won't kill them all in their beds.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 14, 2015)

I'd just like to add that Australia is going the same way too, the posts above (including Yuwipi womans from the usa) are all posts that i could be making about whats going off down here as well. At times the hopelessness is overwhelming, its like a cloud hanging over the world. But i'll be damned if i'll change, I'll carry on doing whatever it takes to stop the gap from widening any further and then do some more to close it  I can't do anything but fight, there is absolutely no way I can just sit back and ignore whats happening. Yes, lots of people are ignoring it and/or losing hope, but fuck it i can be annoying and loud enough for 100 of those people... 

If you're not part of the solution you're part of the problem..Hold on to Hope people


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## treelover (Jul 14, 2015)

New Labour and the Condems/Tories got a lot of ideas on welfare from Aus

Howard even wanted the right of officials to be able to just walking into disabled claimants homes.


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## BigTom (Jul 14, 2015)

I think things were worse in the victorian period, the emergence of early unions like IWW is a bloody struggle and there'd never been anything like a social security system before. It was new and it was won with a combined strategy of unionisation and electoral stuff. I'm sure that's a massive simplification, and certainly ignores the structural changes of the development of capitalism post-slavery and the more immediate effects of WW1 & 2. But as a person, there was a definite strategy / strategies that could be followed.

I think my biggest now problem is strategy. What's the strategy? I can't work one out, and I feel like the groups I've been involved with on anti-austerity stuff were all tactics and no strategy (especially the student group). The two big strategies I can see have failed (electoral strategy like TUSC or Left Unity; and community organising like IWCA). I can't be getting involved with entryism into the green party as a different electoral strategy, and I didn't go for an electoral strategy in 2009/10 when I got active again because I don't see it working, I think the last election showed I was right, that Labour won't move back to a social democratic position and Green party didn't take this space until right near the election, to me means that there's something underneath/behind electoral politics which needs to change for electoral battleground to move. 

So that means some kind of community organising but as a person I'm not great at this and definitely not good at starting things, I can work in groups organising stuff but the people/network building side of it I'm shite at cos no people skills. IWCA stuff didn't really seem to work out and I dunno what I'd do anyway. My feeling is that Thatcher set out to destroy as much communal / communitarian / socialised stuff as possible, to get people acting/working and therefore thinking individually, and that we need to push back against that with things (any things, not capital P Political stuff necessarily) that need group/socialised decisions/action, just so that we can get more of the idea that socialised stuff works for us and that we want that from the state, then we can look at electoral stuff as we might be able to achieve it. All the things Thatcher has changed (housing, transport, unions, privatised industries, sure there's other things) are stuff that we as individuals can't change, those things will come back to us through electoral politics, apart from unions, but the TUC unions are going nowhere and whilst I'd still like to see syndicalist type unions like IWW and SolFed, and the popup union at Sussex Uni iirc coming to the fore, I don't know how this happens as workplace issues are so individualised now for the most part. 

I think there should be some kind of concluding paragraph here, but there isn't. I'm not involved in any organising anymore, just in small bits of practical help with benefits stuff and as a union rep, neither of which is going to stop or change anything. Until I can feel some kind of strategy I don't really know what to do. The only tactics I think were effective were the shop sit-ins from UKUncut (but only worked because of having such a soft message) and the online actions & shop sit-ins from Boycott Workfare. UKUncut only achieved the counter to the "no alternative" and "we're all in this together" messages, did nothing to stop tax avoidance really let alone austerity; BW have got lots of comapnies/charities to pull out of workfare but the schemes roll on and get expanded and added to, I feel like it could be won by taking out all the companies/charities who take part but it's hard to keep the momentum up.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 15, 2015)

I can relate to this...



> 'One night over a bottle of Irish whiskey, Alexander Cockburn told me a story about Noam Chomsky’s teeth. One day the great brain went to the dentist for a check up after several years of neglect. During the examination, the tooth doctor noticed extreme wear on the enamel of Chomsky’s molars.
> 
> “Noam, do grind your teeth?”
> 
> ...



http://www.counterpunch.org/2014/09/26/the-chomsky-paradox/


----------



## DotCommunist (Jul 15, 2015)

yep. One look at the anti strike laws on the front page of the mail this morning and I wanted to put my foot through the newstand


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

Thank you everyone on this thread - I really appreciate this discussion. It's given me a lot to think about. There is a great appetite for change but no clear idea of how it can be done*,* and that is ok. 

Its great to know I'm not alone in feeling this

Its good to be reminded that change is possible.

Its encouraging to hear what some of you are doing to keep going.

Please lets keep talking about this.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> <snip> I do have this feeling that something is major is going to break soon.  You can't have this level of poverty and dissatisfaction that isn't being addressed without an reaction a some point.  A friend of mine made the point this week that Social Security isn't security for the poor and old, it's security for the rich so the poor won't kill them all in their beds.


 Yes there seems to be an increase in the number of burglar alarms, secure blocks and gated estates over here, so perhaps thats how the rich feel here too. Perhaps this is why they seem to be 'cleansing' London of its poorer occupants.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

brixtonscot said:


> friendofdorothy....no I haven't tried a consciousness raising group yet , but I have been in touch with Plan C and they have a CR going , though are not accepting new members to it at the moment in order to build personal trust amongst those participating. So it was suggested it could be possible to set up another CR group for those interested.....so if there is interest on here , we could maybe get another one going


 I'd be up for this - do you think we could do it as a private message group here on urb, would that work? I'm not really sure what is involved - I'm wracking my brains of what we did in feminist CR groups - but that was a life time ago. Presumably we would need some guidelines, but I don't know what.

Is anyone else here interested?


----------



## BigTom (Jul 15, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'd be up for this - do you think we could do it as a private message group here on urb, would that work? I'm not really sure what is involved - I'm wracking my brains of what we did in feminist CR groups - but that was a life time ago. Presumably we would need some guidelines, but I don't know what.
> 
> Is anyone else here interested?



What's a consciousness raising group? What does it do / what's it for?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 15, 2015)

BigTom said:


> <snip>What does it do / what's it for?


AFAIK to help you remember that you're not broken, society is.  And to provide moral support, rehearse ways of handling situations etc.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

BigTom said:


> I think things were worse in the victorian period, the emergence of early unions like IWW is a bloody struggle and there'd never been anything like a social security system before. It was new and it was won with a combined strategy of unionisation and electoral stuff. I'm sure that's a massive simplification, and certainly ignores the structural changes of the development of capitalism post-slavery and the more immediate effects of WW1 & 2. But as a person, there was a definite strategy / strategies that could be followed.
> 
> I think my biggest now problem is strategy. What's the strategy? I can't work one out, and I feel like the groups I've been involved with on anti-austerity stuff were all tactics and no strategy (especially the student group). The two big strategies I can see have failed (electoral strategy like TUSC or Left Unity; and community organising like IWCA). I can't be getting involved with entryism into the green party as a different electoral strategy, and I didn't go for an electoral strategy in 2009/10 when I got active again because I don't see it working, I think the last election showed I was right, that Labour won't move back to a social democratic position and Green party didn't take this space until right near the election, to me means that there's something underneath/behind electoral politics which needs to change for electoral battleground to move.
> 
> ...


 A lot needs to be done to counter to the "no alternative" and "we're all in this together" messages and the rest of the govt narrative.  I'm not very familiar which union campaigns or organisations you mentioned - so will be going away to look them up.

I think a lot of what you say echos other posters here, and I don't think anyone here has any conclusions either.  I suppose I'm hoping to find a new way to keep up my momentum - to find some more hopeful way of looking at the future now I'm neither youthful or energetic.


----------



## stethoscope (Jul 15, 2015)

BigTom said:


> What's a consciousness raising group? What does it do / what's it for?



A bit about consciousness raising here in relation to feminism - http://www.bl.uk/sisterhood/articles/consciousness-raising


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

BigTom said:


> What's a consciousness raising group? What does it do / what's it for?


In '70s/'80s feminism the idea was that we all needed to alter the way we were thinking about the world and womens role in it, to educate ourselves and each other. The big idea was the personal was politcal. It was grass roots politics - feminism had no central office, no leaders, no party line, it was all from individual up and not the other way around. Millions of women all over the world small groups of women got together in each others living rooms.  Before internet it was a good way to share books, pamplets, then organise demos and ralllies. 

Big campaigns against war, male violence, sexual abuse and rape grew out of this. Alternative life styles were discussed and explored. Lots of issues about disability, race and class priviledge came up too.


----------



## BigTom (Jul 15, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> A lot needs to be done to counter to the "no alternative" and "we're all in this together" messages and the rest of the govt narrative.  I'm not very familiar which union campaigns or organisations you mentioned - so will be going away to look them up.
> 
> I think a lot of what you say echos other posters here, and I don't think anyone here has any conclusions either.  I suppose I'm hoping to find a new way to keep up my momentum - to find some more hopeful way of looking at the future now I'm neither youthful or energetic.



I think it was useful, the way UKUncut made tax avoidance a massive issue, so every time a tory ran out one of those lines there was a quick, easy counter. But it hasn't led to either something being done about tax avoidance, or created a space where anti-austerity messages took hold, let alone been part of a wider defeat of austerity / move back to the social democratic consensus we had in the post-war period. I think UKUncut did really well, and what was achieved shouldn't be dismissed, but it didn't lead to any material gains, and there wasn't a strong enough wider movement to take advantage of the ideational (?) gains they did make. The TUC didn't help, after March 26th did fuck all, and UKUncut was done in by all the arrests at Fortnum and Mason (though I think it had also run its course, the tax avoidance issue was a huge issue by that point, UKUncut weren't needed to make it one anymore). I still don't quite get how the demo on March 26th demobilised the union / labour left stuff, but it did.


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## BigTom (Jul 15, 2015)

thanks Greebo stethoscope friendofdorothy, will have a read and a think.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 15, 2015)

stethoscope said:


> A bit about consciousness raising here in relation to feminism - http://www.bl.uk/sisterhood/articles/consciousness-raising


what Gail Lewis says about the the Brixton Black womens group there is very interesting


----------



## oryx (Jul 15, 2015)

BigTom said:


> I think it was useful, the way UKUncut made tax avoidance a massive issue, so every time a tory ran out one of those lines there was a quick, easy counter. But it hasn't led to either something being done about tax avoidance, or created a space where anti-austerity messages took hold, let alone been part of a wider defeat of austerity / move back to the social democratic consensus we had in the post-war period. I think UKUncut did really well, and what was achieved shouldn't be dismissed, but it didn't lead to any material gains, and there wasn't a strong enough wider movement to take advantage of the ideational (?) gains they did make. The TUC didn't help, after March 26th did fuck all, and UKUncut was done in by all the arrests at Fortnum and Mason (though I think it had also run its course, the tax avoidance issue was a huge issue by that point, UKUncut weren't needed to make it one anymore). I still don't quite get how the demo on March 26th demobilised the union / labour left stuff, but it did.



Maybe I'm being naïve here but is the recent budget announcement on non-doms a bit of a victory for anti-tax evasion campaigners?


----------



## 8ball (Jul 15, 2015)

oryx said:


> Maybe I'm being naïve here but is the recent budget announcement on non-doms a bit of a victory for anti-tax evasion campaigners?



Or maybe a last kick in the teeth for someone who they perceive as holding them back in their last term...


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## brixtonscot (Jul 15, 2015)

Here is the link for Consciousness Raising from Plan C , for those interested here we *could* investigate doing it with Plan C , can we do group personal messages here on U75 ?
http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/c-is-for-consciousness-raising/


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## BigTom (Jul 16, 2015)

oryx said:


> Maybe I'm being naïve here but is the recent budget announcement on non-doms a bit of a victory for anti-tax evasion campaigners?


Avoidance not evasion.
The non dom stuff has been around for years, labour started charging to have this status years before the crash and it's not something ukuncut campaigned about directly. I don't know how much credit you can really give on this specific thing.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 16, 2015)

brixtonscot said:


> Here is the link for Consciousness Raising from Plan C , for those interested here we *could* investigate doing it with Plan C , can we do group personal messages here on U75 ?
> http://www.weareplanc.org/blog/c-is-for-consciousness-raising/


You can now - you just "start a conversation" then "invite" (ie add in) anyone you'd like to be there.

You can set it so that only the OP can add people, or (more risky) so that anyone already there can add anyone.

Anyone can choose to "leave the covnersation" ie not see it anymore at any time.

Bear in mind that PMs aren't moderated, so it might be a good idea to set up some ground rules.


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## ice-is-forming (Jul 16, 2015)

I started and sustained a womens consciousness raising group in the early 80's. These days i like the idea of recovery orientated values to promote change and provide people with relationships that enable hope, personal and community empowerment, change & growth.

Building healthy communities starts at grass roots level; assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate. I've had some success in a small rural town here that is slowly dying due to federal and local government decisions & actions.  I now work with a small army (well around 30 of us atm  ) who i have managed to get funding/grants for to train in various aspects that can benefit the most vulnerable in this community. We all support each other and our numbers are steadily growing. I could step away from this 'project' now and it would run without my input, independent of the organisation that I work for. We are making an impact and are starting to be asked for input into local council meetings and decision making


----------



## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

When you have a community with no respect for its own members happy to tear strips off each other then what hope is there?


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> When you have a community with no respect for its own members happy to tear strips off each other then what hope is there?



Do you have respect for others? do you tear strips off people? No, of course you don't... and there's your hope. It may be small and fragile right now, and you may have to hold it for people until they can hold it themselves. But focus on the strengths not weaknesses in your community and it'll get stronger.


----------



## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

ice-is-forming said:


> Do you have respect for others? do you tear strips off people? No, of course you don't... and there's your hope. It may be small and fragile right now, and you may have to hold it for people until they can hold it themselves. But focus on the strengths not weaknesses in your community and it'll get stronger.


i was referring to this community.


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## Teaboy (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> i was referring to this community.



You post crap like this then whinge and moan about lack of respect.  Why on earth did you come back?


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> You post crap like this then whinge and moan about lack of respect.  Why on earth did you come back?


You're proving my point. Calling what i say 'crap' is entirely disrespectful and entirely in keeping with the clique authoritarian "I am considerably more class warrior than you" that permeates this site. There are plenty (not all) users who act to others as if they have a stink of shit permanently staining their nostrils. They are judgemental and no less divisive than the tories. I find this ridiculous and counter productive


----------



## Teaboy (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> You're proving my point. Calling what i say 'crap' is entirely disrespectful and entirely in keeping with the clique authoritarian "I am considerably more class warrior than you" that permeates this site. There are plenty (not all) users who act to others as if they have a stink of shit permanently staining their nostrils. They are judgemental and no less divisive than the tories. I find this ridiculous and counter productive



Your post was massively disrespectful to everyone on this board, you lumped us all into one and dismissed us with a wave of your hand.  Honestly you need to have a long hard look at yourself.


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> Your post was massively disrespectful to everyone on this board, you lumped us all into one and dismissed us with a wave of your hand.  Honestly you need to have a long hard look at yourself.


Except I didn't lump everyone together: if you did you would not have missed the part that said "there are plenty (NOT ALL) users..."

Again, that's disrespectful and entirely the sort of behaviour I'm talking about.


----------



## Teaboy (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> Except I didn't lump everyone together: if you did you would not have missed the part that said "there are plenty (NOT ALL) users..."
> 
> Again, that's disrespectful and entirely the sort of behaviour I'm talking about.



You bloody well did lump us all in together.  It's just a one way thing with you, everyone should respect you regardless of how you behave.  You need to grow up, it doesn't work that way here or anywhere.  I still don't know why you came back to do the same old moan over and over again.


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Teaboy said:


> You bloody well did lump us all in together.  It's just a one way thing with you, everyone should respect you regardless of how you behave.  You need to grow up, it doesn't work that way here or anywhere.  I still don't know why you came back to do the same old moan over and over again.


What part of the sentence i quoted could possibly mean what you have read into it? 

You are reading what you want in what I have said in order to exercise your own prejudice and you don't like the fact you've been called out on that.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> When you have a community with no respect for its own members happy to tear strips off each other then what hope is there?



Seeing as you've been banned and no doubt will be again when the mods cotton on you're not really a 'member of the community' are you?


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Seeing as you've been banned and no doubt will be again when the mods cotton on you're not really a 'member of the community' are you?


Then your definition of a community is very different to mine.

But it's not really relevant is it. It doesn't change the fact that people on here, despite claiming to care about issues pertaining to welfare, justice and all the rest of it, don't care to extend those principles to everyone. When you're happy to sniff and sneer at people who are on the same page as you then you are no better than the people you criticise. It is divide and rule which you and i both know is the oldest trick in the book and it's really sad to see a community of the left (or whatever word you care to use) fall for it so willingly.

<snip real names and picking fights - surprised no-one reported this - mango5>

I'd rather be part of no community than share a platform with arseholes like that. They won't ever change and neither will the politics of this country.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 16, 2015)

You could have chosen to be a part of this online community, but you opted out right from the fucking start, so don't blame anyone else but yourself.


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You could have chosen to be a part of this online community, but you opted out right from the fucking start, so don't blame anyone else but yourself.


Explain how you think I opted out.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 16, 2015)

You really need me to explain that to you? Your last postin this thread are tantamount.


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You really need me to explain that to you? Your last postin this thread are tantamount.


Tantamount to what?

Can you answer the question? In what way did I opt out. This is an online community, one opts in, presumably, by participating in discussions. How then did I opt out. Simple enough question surely?


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## brixtonscot (Jul 16, 2015)

Anybody interested in getting involved in consciousness raising group , possibly through Plan C , though not necessarily , PM me and say what you think in general , and about Plan C in particular
PS. I'm not a member of Plan C , don't know that much about them , but like what I know so far and interested to find out more.
http://www.weareplanc.org/about/


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 16, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> Tantamount to what?
> 
> Can you answer the question? In what way did I opt out. This is an online community, one opts in, presumably, by participating in discussions. How then did I opt out. Simple enough question surely?



Enough derailing of what is a very informative & constructive thread.

Piss off or fuck off. The choice is yours


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## zxspectrum (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Enough derailing of what is a very informative & constructive thread.
> 
> Piss off or fuck off. The choice is yours


So not only are you a liar you're also a coward. This is pathetic, and you have the nerve to criticise me. You were happy enough to derail the thread when it suited you to attack me, as you've just one. This is exactly the sort of behaviour I'm talking about.


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## mango5 (Jul 16, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Piss off or fuck off. The choice is yours


Nope, in this instance the choice is mine. 24 hours for disrupting this valuable thread.


zxspectrum said:


> I'd rather be part of no community than share a platform with arseholes like that.


Happy to oblige


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## panpete (Jul 17, 2015)

I haven't read all of this thread, so excuse me if my points have already been mentioned.
I think that throughout the ages, people have fought for their rights against authoritarianism, unfair exploitation, etc etc, but we live in un-precedented times where these things are happening on a global scale.
Greece got the chance to vote 'no' yet Tspiras was still bullied by the EU into considering another bail out, and now riots have ensued.
Greece's society has been dismantled, a bit like america.
Maybe all western countries will end up like america.
Privatised prisons, profiting from the poor by trapping them in an endless cycle of prison by fining them for minor law violations, sending them to prison because they cannot afford private company probation fees, etc
Homelessness is being made illegal in many cities in america and here, and it is even becoming illegal in many places to feed the homeless.
Victimise the poor and vulnerable until they get too sick and die, or commit suicide, and then make more people poor and homeless by bankrupting the middle classes because they cannot afford medical fees that their insurance companies won't pay out for.

David Cameron even wants to ban protests, unions and free speech, plus he wants to scrap the human rights act.
This will lead to more disease, suicides etc, and more poverty.
I was watching one video by Peter Stafford on youtube, a cumbrian homeless man who makes videos of himself while walking his dog in the cumbrian countryside. He chats with people of all classes including the increasing numbers of upper class people who have come to the area to make money.
I am sorry that I cannot remember exactly which of his videos he mentioned this in, but he said a lot of the pubs, etc in the cumbrian countryside have been gentrified, and he has heard upper class clientelle talk about de-population on many occasions.
There are too many people on the earth, said Henry Kissinger.
They are no longer needed, as manufacturing has been outsourced to third world countries.
You get the rich living alongside the poor in places like Mumbai, but the poor are dirt poor.
Corporatism has taken over, money is all that matters. Bollocks to the damage that the pursuit of wealth and power has done to the earth.

How are we going to fight if free speech and protests are banned?
I don't like to think anything is hopeless, but I just don't know how we can fight against this scourge.
It is especially dispiriting to see exploited workers, etc, accepting their miserable fate because they have no choice if they have families to feed.
The corporate beast is abusive and puts people in a catch 22 situation where they have to accept bad conditions in order to keep their jobs.
The people who are homeless cannot sleep on the street in cities, where they have most access to help, yet there is not enough housing or homeless services. Kind people are not allowed to feed them, so they are stuck, damned if they do, damned if they dont.

I think the big money power machine has grown too big, and in times gone by we could fight it, but I am not so sure now.

I think the tories are even making it harder for labour or any other parties to get in power.
Big business has bought out politics and it is big business who run the world now.
People are seen as expendable containers, and as comodities, and when they are too sick to work, they are no longer profitable, so the governments don't really care what happens to them.
I dunno, but I think things like empathy and compassion are becoming out-dated, and there is less and less chance for people to get back on their feet after falling on hard times, ie, cutting back on services etc.

I do feel it is pretty hopeless to be honest, given the above, but again, I apologise if any of this post has already been discussed.


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## treelover (Jul 17, 2015)

> The end of capitalism has begun
> 
> Without us noticing, we are entering the postcapitalist era. At the heart of further change to come is information technology, new ways of working and the sharing economy. The old ways will take a long while to disappear, but it’s time to be utopian
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/books/2015/jul/17/postcapitalism-end-of-capitalism-begun




Mason doesn't think thing are always going to be like this!


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## gimesumtruf (Jul 17, 2015)

Does this mean it'll be free to watch robot wars.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 17, 2015)

zxspectrum said:


> Then your definition of a community is very different to mine.
> 
> But it's not really relevant is it. It doesn't change the fact that people on here, despite claiming to care about issues pertaining to welfare, justice and all the rest of it, don't care to extend those principles to everyone. When you're happy to sniff and sneer at people who are on the same page as you then you are no better than the people you criticise. It is divide and rule which you and i both know is the oldest trick in the book and it's really sad to see a community of the left (or whatever word you care to use) fall for it so willingly.



This is exactly why I started this thread. I'm looking for some hope that 'we' are not so divided that 'they' will always rule us. Please *everyone *lets have some respect for each other here. 

I don't like the scraps I see about nothing very much on these boards either. I want a different sort of dialogue. Something more constructive. I'm sorry you felt the same need to lay into other posters here on this thread and attempt some sort of bun fight - there are plenty of other places on the forum for that. I'm sorry that it took a banning to stop it. 



gimesumtruf said:


> Does this mean it'll be free to watch robot wars.


Which forum was that meant for?  Please no more derails


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> You can now - you just "start a conversation" then "invite" (ie add in) anyone you'd like to be there.
> 
> You can set it so that only the OP can add people, or (more risky) so that anyone already there can add anyone.
> 
> ...



Lets discuss what sort of ground rules people would be prepared to accept.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 17, 2015)

ice-is-forming said:


> I started and sustained a womens consciousness raising group in the early 80's. These days i like the idea of recovery orientated values to promote change and provide people with relationships that enable hope, personal and community empowerment, change & growth.
> 
> Building healthy communities starts at grass roots level; assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate. I've had some success in a small rural town here that is slowly dying due to federal and local government decisions & actions.  I now work with a small army (well around 30 of us atm  ) who i have managed to get funding/grants for to train in various aspects that can benefit the most vulnerable in this community. We all support each other and our numbers are steadily growing. I could step away from this 'project' now and it would run without my input, independent of the organisation that I work for. We are making an impact and are starting to be asked for input into local council meetings and decision making


I would love to hear more - how did you start and how did you organise? - was it friends and neighbours getting to gether to deal with a local issue? 

What does 'recovery orientated values' mean?
'assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate' is self explanitory but sounds very much like management jargon to me - what do you mean?
You mention an organisation that you work for - are you/your group paid or funded to organise things?  

I'm having trouble seeing how national or local issues can be tackled - how to look at the problems ahead in any positive way? I'm seeing plenty of local opposition to local issues but no 'community empowerment'.


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## gimesumtruf (Jul 17, 2015)

Which forum was that meant for?  Please no more derails[/QUOTE]

This is the last thread I would derail, please believe that.
I am very sorry this has happened, it happened on another thread also. I'd better stop posting because I dont know how it's happening.

I apologise.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 19, 2015)

bingiman said:


> Don't pretend you have all the answers. One of the problems with politics is the need (discredited elsewhere) to come up with all the answers at the very beginning of the process of change.
> 
> Our goal is too big to imagine victory.* Break the big problem, (in this case the system) into lots of small problems and come up with easy things you can do that will make a change. *
> 
> As someone said earlier on in the thread if there is enough of us we can't all be down or up at the same time. We need you and people like you. Don't give up. This is a long haul.


 I think this is really important that we all bear this in mind in mind. Lets keep talking.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 19, 2015)

ChrisD said:


> I'm sure I have a lot of common cause with them but their academic sociological language puts me off (& I have 3 degrees).
> <snip>
> I haven't quite given up but I've lost my enthusiasm.	 Come on Urban -  *revitalize me please*!


I think we're all need in need of some revitalising.

Having read a bit more of the Plan C stuff I find it academic too, and sounds a bit 'party' though they say they don't want to be.  I dislike jargon, management speak, psycho-babble and stuff that sounds like someone's homework. But there are lots of ideas there I'd like to explore and hear more about.

I really like the idea of small consciousness raising groups again though - to chat about lefty /socialist ideas, talk about our personal experiences, get to know and trust a small group of people and support each other in the various actions we're already doing. 

In a lot of ways Urban is already doing this for me, but I would like a conversation here without interuption, nonsense, abuse, derails, personal attacks, etc.


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## boohoo (Jul 19, 2015)

I like the idea of consciousness raising groups. I have an article about a women's one in Clapham in the 1970s (it's a bit academic but let me know if you would like a read). I think it would be good to chat about ideas and supporting actions without the arguments/ disagreements that go on here.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 19, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I like the idea of consciousness raising groups. I have an article about a women's one in Clapham in the 1970s (it's a bit academic but let me know if you would like a read). I think it would be good to chat about ideas and supporting actions without the arguments/ disagreements that go on here.


yes. Did you see #99 upthread? good link


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## boohoo (Jul 19, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> yes. Did you see #99 upthread? good link



No -Thanks for the pointer. Will take a look.


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## brixtonscot (Jul 20, 2015)

_These are some extracts from interview with Joshua Stephens on *Self and Determination: an inward look at collective liberation* and link to audio recording of presentation Joshua gave at London Action Resource Centre in 2012 , which I was at._

Really, we're coming face to face with the fact that we're fragile. We break. We've happily deployed these effects of capitalism as a discursive indictment of the status quo, but I think we've largely avoided thinking about it as _our status_...

Therein, impulses and inclinations that might strike us as utterly apolitical are often of profound political consequence, and can even be the levers by which powerful institutions derail resistance.
I wanted to encourage people to reconsider practices of the self as more than some shitty, individualizing navel-gazing. I wanted to suggest that they are an act of refusal....

...When we look at ourselves, the complexity we allow for and observe is such that it can overwhelm and intimidate us, really. 
So, we kick that monster back under the bed, and resume smashing the state or whatever. 
We distinguish these spheres with such intensity that they appear subject to two entirely different regimes of logic.
It shouldn't shock us, at all, that people whose lives are policed by institutionalized oppression and violence individualize and internalize that.

Thanks to things like feminist consciousness-raising groups and other illustrations of the collective experience of these things, we can now recognize and see our way through the stories we're taught to tell ourselves about oppression.
But the internal/external distinction generally is no less a story.
https://indyreader.org/content/self...ctive-liberation-conversation-joshua-stephens


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## ice-is-forming (Jul 20, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I would love to hear more - how did you start and how did you organise? - was it friends and neighbours getting to gether to deal with a local issue?
> 
> What does 'recovery orientated values' mean?
> 'assess needs, plan, implement & evaluate' is self explanitory but sounds very much like management jargon to me - what do you mean?
> ...



assess, plan, implement, and evaluate aren't managerial jargon  they form the basis of changing something that looks huge and too hard into small achievable goals. its used in nursing, setting up community projects, changing policies etc...with out assessing the needs you can't make plans,implement them, and achieve then evaluate how you did. it provides a matrix for change

Recovery orientated values come from recovery focused mental health practice. I've found that using and promoting these values whilst trying to improve the health of a local community work really well. below it explains how these principles work for an individual. but replace the individual with community and you'll see what i'm getting at? recovery is about empowerment and hope.

*1. Uniqueness of the individual*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

recognises that recovery is not necessarily about cure but is about having opportunities for choices and living a meaningful, satisfying and purposeful life, and being a valued member of the community
accepts that recovery outcomes are personal and unique for each individual and go beyond an exclusive health focus to include an emphasis on social inclusion and quality of life
empowers individuals so they recognise that they are at the centre of the care they receive.Top of page
*2. Real choices*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

supports and empowers individuals to make their own choices about how they want to lead their lives and acknowledges choices need to be meaningful and creatively explored
supports individuals to build on their strengths and take as much responsibility for their lives as they can
ensures that there is a balance between duty of care and support for individuals to take positive risks and make the most of new opportunities.
*3. Attitudes and rights*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

involves listening to, learning from and acting upon communications from the individual and their carers about what is important to the individual
promotes and protects an individual’s legal, citizenship and human rights
supports individuals to maintain and develop social, recreational, occupational and vocational activities which are meaningful to them
instils hope in an individual about their future and ability to live a meaningful life.
*4. Dignity and respect*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

involves being courteous, respectful and honest in all interactions
involves sensitivity and respect for each individual, especially for their values, beliefs and culture
challenges discrimination wherever it exists within our own services or the broader community.Top of page
*5. Partnership and communication*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

acknowledges that each individual is an expert on their own life and that recovery involves working in partnership with individuals and their carers to provide support in a way that makes sense to them
values the importance of sharing relevant information and the need to communicate clearly
involves working in positive and realistic ways with individuals and their carers to help them realise their own hopes, goals and aspirations.
*6. Evaluating recovery*
Recovery oriented mental health practice ensures and enables continuous evaluation at several levels:

Individuals and their carers can track their own progress.
Services demonstrate that they use the individual’s experiences of care to inform quality improvement activities.
The mental health system reports on key outcomes that indicate recovery. These outcomes include housing, employment, education, social and family relationships, health and well being.

*1. Uniqueness of the individual*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

recognises that recovery is not necessarily about cure but is about having opportunities for choices and living a meaningful, satisfying and purposeful life, and being a valued member of the community
accepts that recovery outcomes are personal and unique for each individual and go beyond an exclusive health focus to include an emphasis on social inclusion and quality of life
empowers individuals so they recognise that they are at the centre of the care they receive.Top of page
*2. Real choices*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

supports and empowers individuals to make their own choices about how they want to lead their lives and acknowledges choices need to be meaningful and creatively explored
supports individuals to build on their strengths and take as much responsibility for their lives as they can
ensures that there is a balance between duty of care and support for individuals to take positive risks and make the most of new opportunities.
*3. Attitudes and rights*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

involves listening to, learning from and acting upon communications from the individual and their carers about what is important to the individual
promotes and protects an individual’s legal, citizenship and human rights
supports individuals to maintain and develop social, recreational, occupational and vocational activities which are meaningful to them
instils hope in an individual about their future and ability to live a meaningful life.
*4. Dignity and respect*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

involves being courteous, respectful and honest in all interactions
involves sensitivity and respect for each individual, especially for their values, beliefs and culture
challenges discrimination wherever it exists within our own services or the broader community.Top of page
*5. Partnership and communication*
Recovery oriented mental health practice:

acknowledges that each individual is an expert on their own life and that recovery involves working in partnership with individuals and their carers to provide support in a way that makes sense to them
values the importance of sharing relevant information and the need to communicate clearly
involves working in positive and realistic ways with individuals and their carers to help them realise their own hopes, goals and aspirations.
*6. Evaluating recovery*
Recovery oriented mental health practice ensures and enables continuous evaluation at several levels:

Individuals and their carers can track their own progress.
Services demonstrate that they use the individual’s experiences of care to inform quality improvement activities.
The mental health system reports on key outcomes that indicate recovery. These outcomes include housing, employment, education, social and family relationships, health and well being.

and yes, atm i work for a large humanitarian organisation. its my job to promote empowerment, independence, meaningful activity, relationships. inclusion and hope for individuals, groups, communities. if you assist to give people back their dignity, confidence, validate their feelings of being trampled on by the government, endorse their instincts... their basic human morals, then this is what (ime) starts the changes from the grass roots up. I've enabled an amazing support network of people who as well as caring and being there for each other, are just gathering momentum with speaking out and organising rallies and marches and protests. Meeting like minded others has given them the strength and justification to be heard. ime people who are 'down trodden' won't fight for themselves but will fight for other people who they come to form good relationships with


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

That was quite a long post to digest.



> and yes, atm i work for a large humanitarian organisation. its my job to promote empowerment, independence, meaningful activity, relationships. inclusion and hope for individuals, groups, communities. if you assist to give people back their dignity, confidence, validate their feelings of being trampled on by the government, endorse their instincts... their basic human morals, then this is what (ime) starts the changes from the grass roots up. I've enabled an amazing support network of people who as well as caring and being there for each other, are just gathering momentum with speaking out and organising rallies and marches and protests. Meeting like minded others has given them the strength and justification to be heard. ime people who are 'down trodden' won't fight for themselves but will fight for other people who they come to form good relationships with


 well done! 



> assess, plan, implement, and evaluate


I can understand how that and the processes described can apply to a mental health project, local community projects, or to a health, charity or a work project.  I'm mystified how it applies to approaching what I see as an unacceptable state of my nation, of the politics of the the country I live in, or the apathy of so many ordinary people. Assess? - we're all doomed!  

Sorry if I'm being flip but at the moment I am angry at exactly this sort of language and jargon being used by my govt, DWP, Atos, councils etc who are not just demonising groups of people (like the ill, disabled and poor) but they are begining to use the language of mental health about the unemployed, as if joblessness itself is a disease to be cured if only those suffering will undergo the right therapy (work for free or work even if it kills you). Information that people desparately need is hidden within public sector jargon, questions on important forms that must be answered truthfully, are confusing. Our govt seems to be applying a similar 'evaluating' approach when it talks about a 'happiness index' - so not content with creating the most unequal society in my memory, it wants us to be happy about it too.



ice-is-forming said:


> recovery is about empowerment and hope.


This sort of phrase may be common in your job, or within mental health services and probably has a depth of meaning to the people you work with. But what does it say but to largely disenfranchised electorate - what does 'empowerment' actually mean?  
This thread is looking for some hope - saying 'recovery is about empowerment and hope.' sounds a bit like saying 'cheer up' or am I missing something?


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

Panpete thankyou for that excellent and conprehensive post - you've managed to to mention just about everything that is bothering me too


panpete said:


> Corporatism has taken over, money is all that matters. Bollocks to the damage that the pursuit of wealth and power has done to the earth.
> 
> How are we going to fight if free speech and protests are banned?
> I don't like to think anything is hopeless, but I just don't know how we can fight against this scourge.


Exactly.
Lets try and find some way to carry on talking and fighting.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

boohoo said:


> I like the idea of consciousness raising groups.	<snip>
> I think it would be good to chat about ideas and supporting actions without the arguments/ disagreements that go on here.


so far only brixtonscot  and me have voiced an interest. Anyone else?

ViolentPanda , Greebo, ChrisD , oryx , Ming,


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

sparklefish , Wilf , taffboy gwyrdd , treelover


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

19sixtysix Dogsauce , Poot David Clapson, mwgdrwg


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

Chick Webb , yield , bingiman , Grace Johnson , BigTom , panpete

and my apologies to anyone I haven't managed to tag


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## Greebo (Jul 20, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> so far only Brixton scot and me have voiced an interest. Anyone else?
> 
> ViolentPanda , Greebo, ChrisD , oryx , Ming,


Yes, but:

Don't expect me to always find the time and/or energy for it - I have other equally urgent things to do.


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## ChrisD (Jul 20, 2015)

yes... but I'm about to go on hols so have other things to cheer me up just now. Do please keep this thread updated - much appreciated xxx


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 20, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Yes, but:
> 
> Don't expect me to always find the time and/or energy for it - I have other equally urgent things to do.


I expect a lot of people wouldn't either - I know how busy you are campaigning.


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## Greebo (Jul 20, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I expect a lot of people wouldn't either - I know how busy you are campaigning.


Me?  Compared to some, I'm doing sweet FA.


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## boohoo (Jul 20, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> so far only Brixton scot and me have voiced an interest. Anyone else?



Yes!


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## brixtonscot (Jul 21, 2015)

Slavoj Žižek on Greece: the courage of hopelessness
"The Italian philosopher Giorgio Agamben said in an interview that  "thought is the courage of hopelessness"
- an insight which is especially pertinent for our historical moment when even the most pessimist diagnostics as a rule finishes with an uplifting hint at some version of the proverbial light at the end of the tunnel.
The true courage is not to imagine an alternative, but to accept the consequences of the fact that there is no clearly discernible alternative: the dream of an alternative is a sign of theoretical cowardice, it functions as a fetish which prevents us thinking to the end the deadlock of our predicament.
In short, the true courage is to admit that the light at the end of the tunnel is most likely the headlight of another train approaching us from the opposite direction. There is no better example of the need for such courage than Greece today." ...????
http://www.newstatesman.com/world-affairs/2015/07/slavoj-i-ek-greece-courage-hopelessness


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 25, 2015)

Ok everyone. I'm about to start a private conversation including anyone who has expressed an interest in some sort of consciousness raising. To begin with it will be just that - a conversation. No comitments, no joining anything, no hard and fast rules (yet?), lets just talk. Perhaps at some future date we will meet in person - but that like everything else is up for discussion.

*It is not private to exclude anyone so if you genuinely want to join in, just pm me.*  I'm only doing it as a pm to avoid casual attacks, shit stirring, bun fights, derails, etc. As it is a pm there is no 'likes' or moderation. I understand if there is any abuse to report then this still can be done and mango5 will be happy to assist us.

We can all continue on this open thread too and perhaps report back here any ideas or developments from the pm.


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## smokedout (Jul 26, 2015)

smokedout said:


> Yes Disabled People Against Cuts and Boycott Workfare - both hold regular london protests, also London Coalition Against Poverty, and on related notes Class War, Streets Kitchen and South London Housing Action
> 
> Theres a fairly out of date list here, I plan to update, will post a link to this thread when I have



up now: https://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/20...o-save-social-security-gets-bigger-every-day/


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 26, 2015)

smokedout said:


> up now: https://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/20...o-save-social-security-gets-bigger-every-day/


Good link. Will read it all at leisure. Good to know there a lefty backlash happening from various places.


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## campanula (Jul 29, 2015)

fraid I have zero interest in conscious-raising (been there thanks) but an enormous appetite for throwing a fucking great monkey wrench into the works at every possible opportunity - mayhem, carnage, destruction - that sort of thing.
Just biding my time....


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 29, 2015)

campanula said:


> fraid I have zero interest in conscious-raising (been there thanks) but an enormous appetite for throwing a fucking great monkey wrench into the works at every possible opportunity - mayhem, carnage, destruction - that sort of thing.
> Just biding my time....


sounds hopeful. Glad to hear someone has some fight in them.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 1, 2015)

I've only just got around to watching the whole of Mhairi Blacks speech, if you missed it I urge you to take a look.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/stonking-maiden-speech-in-parliament-by-mhairi-black.336629/

I like what she says about hope, that SNP was elected not on a wave of nationalism, but on a wave of hope, 'hope that there is something different, something better, than the Thatcherite neoliberal policies produced from this chamber'. 
I like what she said about Benn and signposts to a better society.  I suppose lately I feel all the sign posts have gone awry and I don't know where they should even be pointing anymore.


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## brixtonscot (Aug 3, 2015)

This is from comments after post on Libcom -
_Emma Goldman wrote of synchronising the individual and collective instincts through horizontal cooperation. 
Murray Bookchin's 60s and 70s writings spoke all the time of developing a new kind of selfhood, rejecting the productivist work ethic, and how the highest form of class consciousness was self-consciousness. 
Paul Goodman even co-developed gestalt therapy (which more anarchists should really look into) and practiced as a psychotherapist for ten years.
There are anarchists today who focus on personal problems and overcoming alienation, but sadly they tend to be lifestylists who put social struggle to one side.
Workerist anarchists have the opposite problem of focusing only on social struggle and dismissing out of hand issues of personal psychology as "bourgeois".
https://libcom.org/blog/negative-affirmations-critique-positive-thinking-12072015
_


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## Greebo (Aug 3, 2015)

You want to know how to combat hopelessness?  

Keep the faith until it keeps you.  Don't wait for it to fall in your lap, but get on with your life as best you can, while leaving a small gap for what you need to have a chance of happening and keeping an eye out for anything which might help you get there.

I know that sounds ridiculous (and it doesn't always work as well as you hoped), but IME the more that people try to make their own luck and improve their own chances, the luckier they seem to get.


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 9, 2015)

Interesting article about the personal vs the political, what activism means, working out what action to take, 'doing' vs 'being'.



> I, for one, am interested, not just in exploring but in _living _in that space where critical thinking and reflective practice meet justice, and the capacity to love oneself and others. How? I don’t know. I just envisage this as the activism and humanitarianism of the 21st century, not just rallies or charity, but something new, where institutions don’t break people’s spirit, where personal wellbeing is not chased in isolation, and where ‘doing’ and ‘being’ are not mutually exclusive.



https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/alessandra-pigni/no-you-can’t-‘be-change’-alone

Maybe not very concrete, and I hadn't much come across this idea before of believing that personal/almost spiritual change is the place to start for some people, but it raises some interesting questions about the balance between the personal and the political. Transformation/Open Democracy has some interesting stuff, some of it focusing on real examples (of political change) giving reasons for hope.

Eta: ah, this was the article I was trying to find

https://www.opendemocracy.net/transformation/michael-edwards/welcome-to-transformation-0



> Then as now, there will be no end to patriarchy without deep-rooted changes in men’s behavior; no solution to climate change unless all of us reduce our consumption and carbon footprint; no decline in inequality unless we learn to share resources with each-other; no meaningful democracy until we work through our differences in a spirit of common purpose; no lasting peace if we continue to project our fears and insecurities onto other people.
> 
> But turning these examples around, there must also be real and living forms of politics and economics that grow from and reinforce the best qualities in ourselves, and in which we can actively participate. “We must be the change we want to see in the world” is a favorite quotation attributed to Gandhi, but it’s equally true that we must see the change we want to be – otherwise transformation is pure theory, and that means showing people that real economies can deliver justice and wellbeing, and real politics can bring people together to break the logjam of vested interests.
> 
> Unfortunately, such boundary-breaking experiments are in short supply, constantly constrained by the mantra that change is impossible because of – insert your favorite bogeyman – the world economy, footloose corporations, human nature, the weakening of governments, corruption in politics, the decline of the public, too much TV and far too much Rupert Murdoch. If we believe that only small changes are possible in our political and economic systems, then small change is all we’re going to see – another turn of the wheel with little or no forward movement.



Like the last sentence. Too positive? Feel I should go and immerse myself in some cynicism for balance 

Eta again: "no meaningful democracy until we work through our differences in a spirit of common purpose"... yeah, there's a tiny problem with that...


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 31, 2015)

Its taken a while but I've just re read those articles, Thanks chainsawjob . This is what I've been thinking about:



> An interesting quandary: I can’t ‘be the change’ alone, no matter how many times I quote Mahatma Gandhi. Neither do apolitical humanitarianism or political activism without personal change stand any chance of transforming the world. So…….
> 
> To be or to do?
> 
> ...


 I should add to the bit I've put in bold:and balance that with the challenges of how to survive in this dog eat dog capitalist world.  
I find this interesting and want to discuss it more.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 31, 2015)

Sorry I've not bumped this thread much recently. To anyone who's interested we have a private conversation going on to discuss how to take this forward in a 'consciousness raising' way. We are still discussing what that means and will probably just call it 'combatting hopelessness'.

The reason I've taken it to a private thread is to keep out trolls, derails etc and so we can build some trust between ourselves and  say personal stuff in a slightly safer environment. We are still discussing ground rules, until after the summer hols.

If any urbs would still be interested in joining in - just pm me Thanks.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 13, 2015)

Bump.

I suddenly keep hearing the word hope again.  Corbin mentioned it in his acceptance speech.  Tom Watson said in his speech something about 'unleashing the implacable power of hope'

discuss?


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## DotCommunist (Sep 13, 2015)

I think corbyns emphatic win has energised a lot of people who were in the slough of despond. Shit it made me grin. Bit early to say how things will play out though imho. I've said from the start he is a good bloke in a bad vehicle. Can he change the engine and stick some phat rims on it (to stretch a metaphor)? remains to be seen. But it is very nice to hear someone politically influential on the tele speaking against the entire upper middle class consenus of 'fuck the lower classes, they can tighten their belts'.

I got no more notches left. Any tighter i'll faint


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 1, 2017)

Bump. Fuck how things have changed since I started this thread.

How hopeful / hopeless are people feeling now?

I'm just off out to the NOT ONE MORE DAY march in London, feeling considerably more hopeful than 2 years ago.


----------



## spanglechick (Jul 1, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Bump. Fuck how things have changed since I started this thread.
> 
> How hopeful / hopeless are people feeling now?
> 
> I'm just off out to the NOT ONE MORE DAY march in London, feeling considerably more hopeful than 2 years ago.


Lots more hope, though feel this is make or break, and that we still have a massive battle to fight with the odds stacked against us.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 1, 2017)

spanglechick said:


> Lots more hope, though feel this is make or break, and that we still have a massive battle to fight with the odds stacked against us.


we always did - but at least I feel there are a few more people who care. Good to see so many young people being quite passionate, and really weird (in a good way) to hear "oh Jeremy Corbin'' being sang by thousands of people now.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 1, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> we always did - but at least I feel there are a few more people who care. Good to see so many young people being quite passionate, and really weird (in a good way) to hear "oh Jeremy Corbin'' being sang by thousands of people now.



I'm hoping for the best, but as usual I'm also preparing for the worst.  There's far more hope down here, "on the streets", but it's also very obvious how The Establishment have kicked their dirty tricks up a gear in the hope of cutting The People off at the ankles.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 1, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm hoping for the best, but as usual I'm also preparing for the worst.  There's far more hope down here, "on the streets", but it's also very obvious how The Establishment have kicked their dirty tricks up a gear in the hope of cutting The People off at the ankles.


Thats the worry of course, its fine when you can be tolerated as marginal dissent to be mocked with faint indulgence but the minute the wind is behind people the forces of reaction lose that tolerant smirk and get really on it.


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## Tom A (Jul 11, 2017)

I'm hoping for the best whilst expecting the worst - which has been pretty much my default position for the past seven years, preparing for the government to do nasty things is better than having said nasty things sprung upon you out of nowhere.

What tends to get me despairing is we, as in "progressives", "the Left", or just plain "good people", just can't stop losing. Cameron winning a majority in 2015 when everyone was expecting him to lose ground even if Labour was piss poor was a huge blow to the stomach to me. This pessimism stems all the way back to 2003, where 1.5 million people were just ignored and all was for naught as the UK went into Iraq, the only consolation prize (if you can call it that given the bloodshed) being that we were all subsequently vindicated by Chilcot many years later. After the Brexit vote it seemed that the wheels had fallen off the Corbyn bandwagon with dire poll result after dire poll result, and the left was doing it's usual trick of sticking its fingers in its ears and denying there's an issue and that any talk of an issue was a right-wing conspiracy - and it was always the small but loud group of idiots that were part of Corbyn's supporters that upset me more than Corbyn himself - although I still say the man is far from perfect even if he's the best hope the left has had in many years. Identity politics seems to have ridden roughshod over anything resembling class struggle to the detriment of everything, and people were too busy demanding that people "check their privilege" to work out their differences and build a movement based on a common cause. After all of this I wonder if the whole idea of challenging "the system" is just a dead-end path, and that socialist/anti-capitalist ideas really are doomed to be consigned to the history books. I certainly have not considered myself a "revolutionary" for many years, and often cringe at what my late teens/early 20s self did. Last year I had a major burnout, and subsequently scaled back my campaigning to my commitments with the Unite Community branch, having previously been heavily involved with the People's Assembly and Left Unity (which I left in December 2015 after it was clear it was going nowhere after Corbyn's victory made turning the Labour Party leftwards a more appealing option than building a mass left-of-Labour party).

One year later and I am feeling the tingle of a small breeze which may indicate the wind of change. Last's month's Tory meltdown was a pleasant surprise considering how I had been resigned to a landslide and Labour being unable to mount any opposition, Corbyn or no Corbyn. The Tories are in trouble, and Corbyn has proven his doubters wrong. I also tend to be more optimistic about seeing the demise of neoliberalism and socialist, or at least social democratic ideas coming back into fashion. The "Establishment" will of course not give up without a fight but at present they have been shooting themselves in the foot in their attempts to do so. I still am not getting my hopes up, past experience has prepared me for the possibility for all these hopes to be dashed to pieces.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 2, 2017)

Bump. A lot has happened since I started this thread - I'm feeling more hopeful that our political climate is definitely changing. You?


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## Sea Star (Oct 2, 2017)

I think somewhere in the last 4 years my spirit got broken. I'm trying not to be so down but my history of activism is not dissimilar to yours. We always expect the other side to operate within the rules and they never do.
Was tweeting earlier about my activism in the 90s and how we were utterly crushed by the police and the justice system just as we were beginning to win battles - and then Blair became prime minister and it got worse.
So yeah - I need to be brought out of this state of utter despondency I think. Despondency wins no battles at all.


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 2, 2017)

I am more hopeful.	The aftermath of the 2015 GE was a real low point.  But it also took away some of my complacency and it was the start of me being more active in a range of ways - in solidarity and with more political involvement.	 

I have seen how people can come together to achieve a lot when there is the will to do so.   That has been powerful and hopeful.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 2, 2017)

Apart from anything else the word 'solidarity' seems to be back in fashion in the media anyway


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## krink (Oct 2, 2017)

I'm pretty sure that we are fucked and things will just get worse.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 3, 2017)

Tom A said:


> that socialist/anti-capitalist ideas really are doomed to be consigned to the history books



They are doomed because history has shown that there has never been a successful socialist nation. Socialism is great on paper but simply doesn't work in practice. We will always put our families and other loved ones before society as a whole.


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## Jay Park (Oct 3, 2017)

krink said:


> I'm pretty sure that we are fucked and things will just get worse.



Case in point directly below


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> They are doomed because history has shown that there has never been a successful socialist nation. Socialism is great on paper but simply doesn't work in practice. We will always put our families and other loved ones before society as a whole.


Hello new Happy person, why are you so happy? Is no one sick /unemployed/precariously housed in your family?  
Britain used to be more socialist nation post war. 

For some of us putting our families first means wanting a socialist future that might favour our families and loved ones - or at lease not impoverish them/leave them uneducated/make them homeless/ destroy them. Mr Larry are you not worried about the idea in our increasing unequal society thet those without hope won't just put up with it?


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2017)

krink said:


> I'm pretty sure that we are fucked and things will just get worse.


Thats generally how I think too - well apart from some small moments of hope things have indeed always got worse. Prepare for the worst, as I'm sure will happen.

Hang on - stop trying to cheer me up.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2017)

Happy Larry - just thought Norway has been a fairly successful socialist country. They are very rich as a nation - since they invested their oil profits in a sovereign wealth fund for the investment in citizens future.


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## TopCat (Oct 3, 2017)

Theresa May feels worse than you today.

The Conservative conference was described by a Tory MP today as "having an air of decay about it".

Take some comfort from that.


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## Borp (Oct 3, 2017)

Seems to me labour are gonna get in at the next election. Can't see how the tories can hang on. They haven't got enough to offer. The only thing they seem to have is 'not corbyn'. Which isn't enough. 

Obviously there's no knowing what brexit is going to bring up, but I'm not sure that's actually got much to do with who'll vote what at the next GE. Which may well be sooner than expected. 

Now whether corbyn and co can actually make a difference or not is another question. But the signs so far are pretty damn good. Labour have already changed the debate and policies. 

Surely that's something to be positive about. 
The IMMINENT* corbyn lead labour government 

*only half joking.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 4, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Norway has been a fairly successful socialist country. They are very rich as a nation - since they invested their oil profits in a sovereign wealth fund for the investment in citizens future.



Norway is a country with huge resource wealth and a small population. It has been fairly successful. But as the New York Post points out regarding the Scandinavian countries:

"There are a couple of things wrong with the Left’s romance with these countries, as Swedish analyst Nima Sanandaji notes in a recent monograph. It doesn’t fully appreciate the sources of Nordic success, or how Scandinavia has turned away from the socialism so alluring to its international admirers."


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## Happy Larry (Oct 4, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> why are you so happy? Is no one sick /unemployed/precariously housed in your family?



I was born in one of the most economically depressed towns in the North of England. It grieves me that so many people are suffering there. However, I believe that those who are really in need are suffering because much of our welfare budget is wasted on those who can support themselves but, due to their sense of entitlement and socialist mentality, prefer to live off the taxpayer.


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 4, 2017)

Much of the welfare budget goes into landlords pockets through housing benefit
And much housing benefit is allocated to (the landlords of) people in low paid work 

But Mr Larry knows this and is just having a bit of fun trolling about, the so and so


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## Pac man (Oct 4, 2017)

Hopelessness is me sitting here contemplating suicide all night after smashing my flat up and serioyusly considering swallouing a full packet of diazapam due to the bullying and snide games of pickmans model..flaring up my PTSD, i want my account closed. Editor read my message and shut my account down before i do something even more depressing than destroying my fucking home.


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## Miss-Shelf (Oct 4, 2017)

editor


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## krink (Oct 4, 2017)

As a person struggling to survive in economically depressed sunderland, fuck off Larry you cunt.


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## ElizabethofYork (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Hopelessness is me sitting here contemplating suicide all night after smashing my flat up and serioyusly considering swallouing a full packet of diazapam due to the bullying and snide games of pickmans model..flaring up my PTSD, i want my account closed. Editor read my message and shut my account down before i do something even more depressing than destroying my fucking home.



What can we do?  Anyone?


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Hopelessness is me sitting here contemplating suicide all night after smashing my flat up and serioyusly considering swallouing a full packet of diazapam due to the bullying and snide games of pickmans model..flaring up my PTSD, i want my account closed. Editor read my message and shut my account down before i do something even more depressing than destroying my fucking home.



Where are you located?  It sounds like you need some immediate help.  Is there a help-line you can call?

(You should not take the opinions of posters here too seriously.  We've all been here a while and sometimes its not all that friendly to newcomers.  My sincere apologies.)


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## ffsear (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Hopelessness is me sitting here contemplating suicide all night after smashing my flat up and serioyusly considering swallouing a full packet of diazapam due to the bullying and snide games of pickmans model..flaring up my PTSD, i want my account closed. Editor read my message and shut my account down before i do something even more depressing than destroying my fucking home.



Just stick her on ignore like the rest of us!


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## Pac man (Oct 4, 2017)

Im sorry for posting on this thread ive talked to my social worker today and im much calmer now, i think i will block the guy and take a break. Thankyou for the kind words.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Im sorry for posting on this thread ive talked to my social worker today and im much calmer now, i think i will block the guy and take a break. Thankyou for the kind words.



I'm glad you took some action for your wellbeing.


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## ElizabethofYork (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Im sorry for posting on this thread ive talked to my social worker today and im much calmer now, i think i will block the guy and take a break. Thankyou for the kind words.



Glad you're feeling better.  Look after yourself.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 4, 2017)

ffsear said:


> Just stick her on ignore like the rest of us!


There seems to be a lot of misgendering going on these days...


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> There seems to be a lot of misgendering going on these days...


really did you have to follow Pac man here, ffs. Please consider the effect of your posting - I don't want your cross thread beefs here on a serious thread about hopelessness. Take your nickpicking elsewhere please.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Im sorry for posting on this thread ive talked to my social worker today and im much calmer now, i think i will block the guy and take a break. Thankyou for the kind words.


 Glad your social worker could help. Please do take a break and I wish you well.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2017)

Fed up of the conference eh? sad its over?



Happy Larry said:


> I was born in one of the most economically depressed towns in the North of England. It grieves me that so many people are suffering there. However, I believe that those who are really in need are suffering because much of our welfare budget is wasted on those who can support themselves but, due to their sense of entitlement and socialist mentality, prefer to live off the taxpayer.



like the old and the sick eh? We are a rich enough country, that used to provide a safety net to those suffering the misfortune of ill health, disability or unemployment. If its a culture of unemployment and taught helplessness that worries you may I remind you the mass unemployment of the Thatcher years started this , as Tories considered it a price 'price worth paying'. Neoliberal bosses invented euphamisms like down sizing to describe throwing a whole generation on the scrape heap.   I am a tax payer and always have been but I'm not blind to whats going on. look deeper and don't beleive what you read in the Mail.


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## krink (Oct 4, 2017)

I might be feeling hopeless but I will at least try to take a few Happy Larrys with me when i go!!

*if i go


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## editor (Oct 4, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> There seems to be a lot of misgendering going on these days...


Please do not respond or refer to any further posts by Pac man for what I hope are rather obvious reasons. Thank you.


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## TopCat (Oct 4, 2017)

TopCat said:


> Theresa May feels worse than you today.
> 
> The Conservative conference was described by a Tory MP today as "having an air of decay about it".
> 
> Take some comfort from that.



Well May and Co are seemingly on board now in rooting for your happiness friendofdorothy . 
How else to explain the "nails in the Tory coffin" debacle of today?


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## Happy Larry (Oct 5, 2017)

Pac man said:


> Im sorry for posting on this thread ive talked to my social worker today and im much calmer now, i think i will block the guy and take a break.


----------



## Happy Larry (Oct 5, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> like the old and the sick eh?



You obviously either didn't read or didn't understand my post :

"I believe that those who are really in need are suffering because much of our welfare budget is wasted on those who can support themselves but, due to their sense of entitlement and socialist mentality, prefer to live off the taxpayer."

It is the old and sick that are suffering because much of our Welfare Budget is spent on those who could get by without government aid.


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You obviously either didn't read or didn't understand my post :
> 
> "I believe that those who are really in need are suffering because much of our welfare budget is wasted on those who can support themselves but, due to their sense of entitlement and socialist mentality, prefer to live off the taxpayer."
> 
> It is the old and sick that are suffering because much of our Welfare Budget is spent on those who could get by without government aid.


Odious shit.


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## Happy Larry (Oct 5, 2017)

Yes, especially to those who want something for nothing, to the detriment of the genuinely needy.


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## Treacle Toes (Oct 5, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Yes, especially to those who want something for nothing, to the detriment of the genuinely needy.



No. This is not cool or funny or appropriate for this thread. Please stop it. Take your nasty comments to the politics section and start a thread. STOP.


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## Celyn (Oct 5, 2017)

Do you imagine that people choose to be unemployed and that people have a wonderful life on £73 pet week?


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## Celyn (Oct 5, 2017)

On second thoughts, forget it, Happy Larry. As Rutita1 said, take your discussion somewhere else.


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## Tom A (Oct 5, 2017)

I must say that the past few days of witnessing the train wreck of the Tory conference, and the accompanying demonstrations and direct actions have done a lot to lift my spirits. Hope it's the same for many others too


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## krink (Oct 5, 2017)

Yes friendofdorothy  I must join in and say May's nightmare has given even me something to be cheery about too.  I almost felt sorry for her it was so bad!!!


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## TopCat (Oct 5, 2017)

Almost.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 5, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> You obviously either didn't read or didn't understand my post :
> 
> "I believe that those who are really in need are suffering because much of our welfare budget is wasted on those who can support themselves but, due to their sense of entitlement and socialist mentality, prefer to live off the taxpayer."
> 
> It is the old and sick that are suffering because much of our Welfare Budget is spent on those who could get by without government aid.


As I said I think you are mislead and should stop reading the Mail.
Our govt is ruthlessly trying the force people off sickness/disability benefits by a cruel system of reassessments -  at a profit to private companies ATOS and Maximus and at much cost to the tax payer. Our 'welfare' budget overwhelmingly goes into proping up proftable companies who pay minimum wage and into the pockets of private landlords .


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## Happy Larry (Oct 6, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> As I said I think you are mislead and should stop reading the Mail.



Like the other assumptions in your post, this one couldn't be more incorrect.

I haven't read a copy of the Mail for years.


----------



## editor (Oct 6, 2017)

Happy Larry said:


> Yes, especially to those who want something for nothing, to the detriment of the genuinely needy.


You're banned from this thread too.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 5, 2017)

oryx said:


> There are two huge obstacles to overcome - one is the media peddling lies (e.g. about benefit claimants)  and the other is the lack of a unified left wing party to get behind. The latter was a problem in the 80s when I was more active than I am now.
> 
> With the first, we can challenge lies.
> 
> [snip]





19sixtysix said:


> Glad I've found this thread. I was thinking last night how absolutely depressing it looked outside at the moment. Tory government, the EU technocrats destroying greece, disabled friends finding it hard to eat. I personally am OK. I have the trappings of a good life. Job, flat, food on my plate etc but I know these are of no use when society is being tormented.  I think I'm more up for a fight than ever before. I just don't know who to punch.
> 
> I have registered as union supporter to vote for Jeremy Corbin.
> And watch the greek story unfold the speeches of EU commission president are making me think about of voting no at the referendum because I think I've seen enough of the EU as a capitalist club to know it will never be fixed. I like the idea of our common european home but it can not be one set up to allow the rich to abuse us all with their corporations.


It seems like a lot has changed in the last 2 years. I was just reading back to the beginning of this thread and I was wondering what do you both think about how things are now?

anyone feeling hopeful yet?


----------



## oryx (Nov 5, 2017)

So much has happened since then.

Who would have thought, back in July 2015, there would be a left-wing backbencher leading the Labour Party and being seen as a possible future PM?

A maverick business tycoon (that's the politest and least contentious way I can describe Trump) would be the US president?

The UK voting to leave the EU?

The Grenfell Tower tragedy blowing the lid off the establishment's lack of care for social housing tenants and working class people generally?

Cameron's resignation, Mayhem and the loss of her majority in an election gamble which didn't pay off?

I do feel more hopeful on one level as the last election proved there is an appetite for change from 'austerity' and in two years the Tories have gone from being jubilant to looking like they may well be fucked - deeply divided, handling Brexit badly, and looking like a spent force. There have been some victories for what you might call the 99%, such as the reversal of the need to pay for employment tribunals and the climbdown recently on the plans to cap housing benefit for social tenants at local housing allowance levels. Those are the two that come to mind immediately but I'm sure there are others.

At a deeper level I have more concern. Brexit is huge, and hugely divisive. I don't think the reasons so many people voted Leave have been examined, and why it was seen as a force for change, and what is driving that desire for change.

Really interested to know what you, FoD, and others on this thread think & how hopeless/hopeful people feel in the light of a tumultuous two years.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 6, 2017)

Genuinely suprised about Corbyn - for so long now the 'centre ground' has been firmly on the right, and at last he has restablished the Labour party as socialist. Corbyn has managed to reframe and change the debate. Shame the media dismissed him and the fucking parliamentary LP didn't get behind him - I feel they could have won the last election if labour had shown more unity and stood more firmly with Corbyn. Its the first time I've voted labour since 1997.  Not sure what chance he has of changing anything while in opposition though. I've still no idea what labours Brexit plans are either.

I think Brexit has been the most socially and politically divisive thing that has happened in my lifetime. I live in fear of what will happen. Its all so unclear, fuck know what will happen in the next few years.

Re: Trump, Cameron, May etc I feel the whole situation would be comical if these people weren't ruling our world, and mucking it all up.


----------



## oryx (Nov 6, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> I think Brexit has been the most socially and politically divisive thing that has happened in my lifetime. I live in fear of what will happen. Its all so unclear, fuck know what will happen in the next few years.



I agree fully.

Another thing I was thinking recently is that the cuts in public services are really showing now to everyone (or just about everyone), unlike until recently when the main effects of austerity were seen on benefit claimants and less well-off people.

Policing cuts, streets not being cleaned as often as they used to be, council staff cuts, unacceptable waiting times for GPs and hospital appointments, etc. etc.

This is only going to get worse. The (I think) m/class people on my local websites complaint about moped crime, NHS cuts and closures, streets looking unkempt etc. but don't seem to relate it to the wider political situation, unlike on here. This annoys me. They are either Tories, apathetic, 'apolitical' or sticking their fingers in their ears.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 6, 2017)

oryx said:


> Policing cuts, streets not being cleaned as often as they used to be, council staff cuts, unacceptable waiting times for GPs and hospital appointments, etc. etc.


 you forgot the collapse of the social care system.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 6, 2017)

oryx said:


> This is only going to get worse. The (I think) m/class people on my local websites complaint about moped crime, NHS cuts and closures, streets looking unkempt etc. but don't seem to relate it to the wider political situation, unlike on here. This annoys me. They are either Tories, apathetic, 'apolitical' or sticking their fingers in their ears.



There seems to be more agreement among my co workers in the care home that they under pressure like never before. There is a shortage of workers, difficulty in recruiting new staff and we're all overworked and underpaid.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 6, 2017)

I took a bit of an attitude hit this weekend.  Went to Omaha and decided to take the back roads back home.  I drove past what used to be a public ski area.  (Yes, I know.  skiing here?)  It was a great natural place to tramp around, even if the skiing wasn't so great.  There were lots of trees and a limestone cave, if you knew where to look.

Drove by and saw mile after mile of some iron fencing with spikes on top.  After looking closer, I saw that it was not only a nasty looking fence, it was electrified.  "No trespassing" and "trespassers will be prosecuted" signs were posted every few feet, and a guard shack along the border of the property.  It looked like some sort of survivalist's compound.

When I got home I checked to see what had happened to the place.  It was bought by a billionaire named Joe Ricketts (Ameritrade) for $13.5 million.

And yes, I know this is a silly thing to get upset about, but there you go.  It's frustrating because I can visibly see the wealth going out of the hands of us average people to people higher on the scale.


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## oryx (Nov 6, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> you forgot the collapse of the social care system.



TBH there's loads of stuff I left out - education is another. Also there's a recruitment crisis within a lot of sectors.


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## krink (Nov 6, 2017)

Things are definitely worse for me personally. I worry that the energy needed for change has been taken up by the Corbyn phenomenon and I honestly think that will be a dead end.


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## mojo pixy (Nov 7, 2017)

Last week I found myself hesitating over buying a £22 pair of boots to replace mine that are leaking, because I also wanted to buy my son a christmas gift that was on sale, before they sold out.

In the end I went for the go-kart, and I'll have to put up with soggy feet till December.

For the record, I do two jobs; one for 30 hours a week.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Nov 7, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Last week I found myself hesitating over buying a £22 pair of boots to replace mine that are leaking, because I also wanted to buy my son a christmas gift that was on sale, before they sold out.
> 
> In the end I went for the go-kart, and I'll have to put up with soggy feet till December.
> 
> For the record, I do two jobs; one for 30 hours a week.



Your son will love the go-kart.  I think that's every boy's dream.

It does seem that things are getting tighter and tighter for the average person.  I lost 30% of my income a few years ago when they cut back on overtime.  Since then, we haven't gotten pay raises. And since I'm in the US, the cost of healthcare has gone up and up.  So my paycheck is substantially smaller than it was 10 years ago.  Even so, I see lots of people who are worse off than me.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 7, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Last week I found myself hesitating over buying a £22 pair of boots to replace mine that are leaking, because I also wanted to buy my son a christmas gift that was on sale, before they sold out.
> 
> In the end I went for the go-kart, and I'll have to put up with soggy feet till December.
> 
> For the record, I do two jobs; one for 30 hours a week.


liked in solidarity. and for getting the present for your son in a sale. 
Sorry things are so tight for you

Is this what 'making work pay' that tories love to talk about eh? shame they don't talk about making employers pay decent wages.


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## krink (Nov 8, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> Last week I found myself hesitating over buying a £22 pair of boots to replace mine that are leaking, because I also wanted to buy my son a christmas gift that was on sale, before they sold out.
> 
> In the end I went for the go-kart, and I'll have to put up with soggy feet till December.
> 
> For the record, I do two jobs; one for 30 hours a week.



I know exactly how you feel. I do the same thing - spent five minutes deliberating if I could afford to spend 3 quid in CEX on a 2nd hand DVD.  I don't put the heating on unless the kids are here (shared custody) and just been told in April 19 getting a two grand pay cut (and pay freeze until then) which means I won't be able to afford bills AND food.
I put the dvd back.


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## mojo pixy (Nov 8, 2017)

Working hard and living responsibly certainly does pay off 
No wonder shoplifting and various forms of fraud are on the rise, living completely above board is becoming impossible if you're below a certain income.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 8, 2017)

krink said:


> I know exactly how you feel. I do the same thing - spent five minutes deliberating if I could afford to spend 3 quid in CEX on a 2nd hand DVD.  I don't put the heating on unless the kids are here (shared custody) and just been told in April 19 getting a two grand pay cut (and pay freeze until then) which means I won't be able to afford bills AND food.
> I put the dvd back.


that sounds really shit. Pay cut sounds unbearable.


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## krink (Nov 8, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> that sounds really shit. Pay cut sounds unbearable.



yeah it's not good. it means i definitely need to find a new job. trying to be as positive as i can - it could be an opportunity to go in a completely new direction.


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## brixtonscot (Nov 22, 2017)

Radical Happiness , Moments of Collective Joy by Lynne Segal
Radical Happiness: Moments of Collective Joy, by Lynne Segal


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 27, 2017)

brixtonscot said:


> Radical Happiness , Moments of Collective Joy by Lynne Segal
> Radical Happiness: Moments of Collective Joy, by Lynne Segal





> Her book is an important one because we need “a politics of hope” like never before.


that sounds interesting - have you read it yet and would you recommend it?


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## brixtonscot (Nov 29, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> that sounds interesting - have you read it yet and would you recommend it?


In middle of reading now , I'm finding it very good - a bit pricy as only in hardback now , so either order in library or wait for paperback


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## brixtonscot (Dec 7, 2017)

Verso Books 50% OFF ALL BOOKS TILL JAN 1ST. Radical Happiness, £8.50 
Verso


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## brixtonscot (Dec 18, 2017)

_The following is an excerpt from _Radical Happiness: Moments of Collective Joy_, by Lynne Segal _
_lynne segal  :  Search Results   :  Longreads_


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2017)

> It is sometimes said that the twentieth century began with utopian dreaming and ended with nostalgia


 I'm certainly in the nostalgic phase.


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## Ralph Llama (Jan 4, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this.
> 
> I realised recently that I'd been on more demos, marches and written more letters/signed petitions in the last 2 years or so than in the previous two decades.  (I used to do a lot of activist stuff back in the reign of Thatcher.)
> 
> ...



Ok this happens to everyone to much(wont go into the depressing reasons why) When it happens to me i read, watch or listen to undiniably credible media sources that feed back to me the statistics and observations that the movment is working. Example : Goverments are now scrutinised about all aspects of war, which makes them have to cover their tracks / do it on the sly which limits their scope for action.
Inedpandant media needs to establish itself further in UK. I mean the yanks have got democracynow.org FFS . We need a European model of DN! i rekon. Anyone up for getting the ball rolling?


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 4, 2018)

Ralph Llama said:


> Ok this happens to everyone to much(wont go into the depressing reasons why) When it happens to me i read, watch or listen to undiniably credible media sources that feed back to me the statistics and observations that the movment is working. Example : Goverments are now scrutinised about all aspects of war, which makes them have to cover their tracks / do it on the sly which limits their scope for action.
> Inedpandant media needs to establish itself further in UK. I mean the yanks have got democracynow.org FFS . We need a European model of DN! i rekon. Anyone up for getting the ball rolling?


hello Mr Llama and welcome to urban. Though I'd generally advise against first time posters diving straight into the politics forum as it can be rough here.

The opening post is from a while back and a lot has happened in UK politics since 2015. This thread has rather floundered since with only a few ideas about what to actually do.

Can you expand a bit? when you say 'this happens' and 'when it happens' which part of my post are you refering to and what do you think the 'depressing reasons why' are.  Which 'movement' do you think is working?

I don't know a lot about US politics, though I do think the US has some weird ideas, especially on democracy. What is democracynow (good/bad?)


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## Ralph Llama (Jan 5, 2018)

Hello and nice to be here. Hope you can bear my gramma..

This happens - "Defeatism"  hopelesness and confusion. A down trodden state of cynical detachment, which, personally, leads to apathy because Im completely cynical about any idea . In society , imo, it leads to apathy also. 

Why this happens atm? Imo the public relations industry creates a kind of illusion which appeals to the downtrodden state. Its quite invasive. I`m not shure anyone really understands how deep into your mind and how much of your reality consists of institutional conditioning and whats left of yourself to think indipendantly or co-operatevly outside the common symapthy.This can be quite distressing.

The web has challenged the PR industries(and most peoples ideals thank fuck) but they (PR) seem to be stepping up the game , and its quite confusing for a lot of people aparrently . The conspiracy theorys are coming back, usually laced with rightwing sentiment reflected in a Holywood blockbuster. 
Witnessing this kind of thing can be despiriting in its own right. 

i`m quite depressed now

anyway a reliable indipendant daily hour long broadcast staffed by well known radical journalists like democracynow.org (good... well established) could solve a lot of these issuses. 

The obtusness of `the movment` was intended... i mean everything to left ... socalsim. I am an anarchist . I mean when it came to it in Spain all others sucked the bits of capitalism, so personaly would favour a more imidiate solution, but i`ll hand those leaflets out to


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## vanya (Jan 10, 2018)

Reasons to be cheerful 

All That Is Solid ...: The Last Days of the Conservative Party?



> I love it when a Tory shambles comes together. Watching Theresa May's ridiculous cabinet reshuffle unfold on Twitter provided for some wry amusement in-between marking papers. Chris Grayling as party chair, and then 27 seconds later he was dumped for Brandon Lewis. The awful Jeremy Hunt, fresh from the NHS debacle, said no to a move to business and ended up coming out of it with social care added to his portfolio. Or, depending on who you believe, Greg Clark said no to his sacking at BIS, and that meant a fudge for Hunt. Just when the people of Staffordshire Moorlands thought they couldn't see their MP any less, Karen Bradley is moved from culture to Northern Ireland. Sajid Javid stays where he is, but gets a new name for his brief. And there is Justine Greening. May wanted to move her to the DWP and she said no and so quit, ostensibly strengthening the relatively sensible, centrist-bordering awkwards ensconced on the back benches.
> 
> To coin a phrase, nothing has changed, nothing has changed. At least in the grand scheme of things. The most odious and despicable of this government went untouched, and remains as much a miserable mess of dysfunction this evening as it was yesterday. The permanent instability on which the government is poised teeters a little, but not threateningly so. Of more interest, and more pertinent to the party's survival, comes the news the Tories have fewer than 70,000 members, at least according to the chair for the Campaign for Conservative Democracy. Putting that in context, that's _half-a-million fewer_ than Labour, almost half the size of the SNP, smaller than the Liberal Democrats and about where the Greens were at the height of their pre-Corbyn surge.
> 
> ...


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## friendofdorothy (May 5, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this.
> 
> I realised recently that I'd been on more demos, marches and written more letters/signed petitions in the last 2 years or so than in the previous two decades.  (I used to do a lot of activist stuff back in the reign of Thatcher.)
> 
> ...


Bump! alot has happened since I started this thread 4 years ago. Can we do a bit of - Reasons to be hopeful part 2 
anyone?


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## brixtonscot (Dec 15, 2019)

Is there need to revive this thread ? 
It was started by friendofdorothy before Corbyn was elected leader of LP.
Which , for me at least , was a glimmer of hope - which has now been largely dashed.
Except for places like London , Liverpool , Manchester , Bristol  etc
And over 10 million voted for LP.
Not forgetting Scotland & Ireland.
Here's post from friend on FB....

Baring one's soul is a wholly unedifying task, for writer and reader. But after three nights of interrupted sleep, here I am, doing just that. I haven't shed a single tear, but have been close to them for 72 hours.

I am a political animal - I have been since my teens. I have been an active political animal and an inactive political animal. For most of my life, I have been on the losing side of political debate. I joined Labour in 1982 and my first political activity was campaigning for Labour's Peter Tatchell in the Bermondsey By-election. A more dis-spiriting experience would be hard to imagine. Then the 1983, 1987 & 2002 General Elections, campaigning for Labour against Thatcher and Major.

I supported the miners and their families during the 1984/5 miners strike, a brave, just and heroic battle that was ultimately lost. I supported the printworkers in their battle with News International in 1986 and joined the campaign against Section 28. I marched against the Iraq War In London, with millions from across the country. Being on the losing side of a battle is a concept not unfamiliar to me.

I was the Secretary of a left-wing branch of a toothless and collaborationist trade union for six years, from 1988 to 1994.

One would think that with that history, any semblance of idealism would have been well and truly knocked out of me by now. It hasn't. That defeats would be easier to cope with. They aren't.  That rage and anger at injustices would temper. They don't.

I am nothing if not resilient, though - that is indisputable. The present fog will clear, given time. It always does. 

Quite how the UK's membership of the EU became the defining political issue it has, I will never fully get my head round. When the referendum was first called, honestly, I could have gone either way. In the end, I plumped for Remain, but without any serious enthusiasm. A Labour member by that time, I wasn't moved to join the more enthusiastic Remainers in my party in campaigning. 

Over the intervening three+ years, I have been sickened by some of the sanctimonious claptrap that many of the right of Labour have trotted out in favour of Remain, dressing this up as internationalism. There have been more principled arguments for Remain from the Labour left, but none of these really fired my soul either, being honest. I am today the unenthusiastic Remain voter I was in 2016, but Oh Boy - I really wish that Pandora hadn't opened her box in 2016 at all.

Those enthusiastically chomping at the bit for a second referendum ignore Thursday's election results at their peril, but they do. How the EU has come to symbolise all that is bad and wrong in England & Wales, I will never understand. The polarisation of opinion, on both sides of the debate is quite shocking and just a little bit frightening.

The casualties of this polarisation are many and will grow. But the one that is interrupting my sleep is the successful demonisation of Jeremy Corbyn. Caricatured as weak and a ditherer, nothing could be further from the truth. Principled, courageous and incredibly resilient, his leadership of the Labour Party was driven by duty and compassion, rather than ambition and a lust for power. If his election bids of 2017 & 2019 had broken through, that power would now be in the hands of ordinary people, not a bunch on lying, unprincipled Bullingdon Club toffs.

Jeremy has been lied about, smeared and ridiculed by those who aren't fit to tie his shoelaces. He started this election campaign needing an eye operation (hence the glasses we have all seen him wearing for the last 6 weeks). He could have jumped the queue at Moorfields Eye Hospital with one click of his fingers, but steadfastly refused to do this. Instead, he embarked on a gruelling tour of TV studios and towns and cities across the UK. Everywhere he went, there were thousands there to greet him. He struggles with the hero-worship mantle, but put on a brave and gracious face in the interests of those who turned out - recognising that this was good for our movement, not him. I quite simply adore the man.
(the therapy angle of writing this just worked, because I have now shed my first tear).

If there are positives to come out of last Thursday's election, one of those is that Jeremy will be able to finally put down the weight of all our hopes and aspirations and get some of his life back. That goes for his family, as well.

It is a credit to the man that he has survived the last four years, buoyed in large part by being comfortable in his own skin. A lesser man would have crumbled a long time ago, with all the crap that has been thrown at him. Dragging ex-partners out to paint him as some kind of machine, powered only by baked beans really is the gutter in which his detractors now lie.

I love the photo that I have posted to accompany this rant, because I think it encapsulates just how comfortable Jeremy is with his lot. He has a wonderful supportive partner, three fantastic sons and a cat. He would have made a fantastic Prime Minister, but it was not to be. That is our loss and we will feel it for years to come. 

Continue speaking truth to power, Jeremy - you did all (and more than) we could possibly ask of you. You will be very hard to replace, but you have more than earned a period of rest. Then come back and sock it to them, for us all.


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## 8ball (Dec 15, 2019)

I wonder what would come out in an equally long piece of text from anyone who personally knows Boris Johnson...


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 16, 2019)

Thank you brixtonscot 

When I heard the result the next day in the depths of a hangover from out works xmas do, I remarked to a young despairing co worker that I had survived Thatcher and intend to survive this. We should be kind and support one another and do as I did in the 80s and dance our arses off.

All other ideas for surviving are welcome ...


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## Gramsci (Dec 16, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> Is there need to revive this thread ?
> It was started by friendofdorothy before Corbyn was elected leader of LP.
> Which , for me at least , was a glimmer of hope - which has now been largely dashed.
> Except for places like London , Liverpool , Manchester , Bristol  etc
> ...



Thanks for posting this.

A lot of it resonates with me.

I found the whole election depressing. As a regular on Urban for years on the Brixton section I've found the response there making me feel hopeless. I thought Urban was an antidote to hopelessness and in last few days I've been questioning that. So thanks for this. 

Apart from the supporters of the Tories there is also a of of people who are loving the fact that Corbyn is out.

I've seen it on Brixton Forum and its been getting me down.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 17, 2019)

Very true Gramsci , I always get your namesake's quote mixed up......
"Optimism of the intellect , pessimism of the will"
Or
"Optimism of the will , pessimism of the intellect"

Depending on my mood , either could be valid for me ....

And friendofdorothy , it's not just worse than Thatcherism now.....I think it is also a deeper continuous entrenchment of Thatcherism.....her legacy in much of the "post-industrial" North , and also seen in all the selfish , hyper-individualistic bastard children of Thatcherism now coming of age


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## campanula (Dec 17, 2019)

Feh, have gone full retreat mode from all news (political shit). Horribly depressed for similar reasons mentioned by Gramsci. I am miserable about the whole lying fiasco, mortified by social media and really quite upset by the vitriol directed at Corbyn, who I mainly considered an essentially dutiful and compassionate man, by his lights. I liked the idea of a more collegiate politics and am dismayed by the demands for charisma and leadership (mainly because I tend to regard people with those qualities with some suspicion). More worrying, I think, is what brixtonscot refers to as selfish, hyper-individualism...and it is this malaise which I am finding much more pervasive and insidious. A neighbour of mine, a single man, embroiled in a slow, alcoholic suicide, has just been taken to hospital (again) so I have somehow landed with cat feeding duties. His house is awful - reeky, dark and grim. His daughter visits him (but keeps him at arms length from her home and family and has made ir quite clear that she will not be helping out at all...so what to do? Not looking forward to airing and cleaning the place, buying cat litter...but would look forward to seeing him delivered back to a shithole even less. So yeah, I guess I am reducing my 'circle of care' to my immediate family, my (poor) friends and neighbours - everyone else can fuck off. My daughter, a social worker, discovered her manager voted Tory. This would probably have been the last straw (she is on the FAST team - literally the last line of defence for children's and families safeguarding) in a system utterly broken. She is a good social worker...which is why she is being consumed  with despair...and feels betrayed that her manager should be so fucking misguided or insulated as to vote for a Tory. I did social work too...and actually thought being fully leftwing was part of the job description. All of us in my family have had the 'leaving the country' fantasies (Portugal is the most popular option...but skint) so we carry on, doing what we always do. One day at a time.


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## 8ball (Dec 17, 2019)

I think it's definitely good to have a break from that shit.


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## Poot (Dec 17, 2019)

The only thing that you can do, and which was mentioned on another thread (about children, funnily enough) is to punch upwards. Let's all punch upwards.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Dec 17, 2019)

Yeah, I've been feeling a bit out of sorts.  Doesn't help that I've been ill otherwise (kidney stones, followed by kidney infection, followed by the flu) and tired from working full-time and going to school. 

There are times that I think of just ditching everything, moving back home, and rolling up the sidewalk behind me.  I have four acres.  That's enough to raise my own food, and spend a good amount of time puttering about to keep busy.  I almost did it when Trump won the last election.  If he wins again, I'll be hard put not to just dump everything and go for it.  I could rent out my house in the city for enough cash to keep the taxes paid.

In the meantime, I realize that there are limitations on what can be done.  I try to focus on little things that I can do.  I work making baby items for a group that puts together new baby packages that are given out at WIC offices.  If you feel you're not making any progress, its good do something that lets you see  the tangible, but small, result of your efforts.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 18, 2019)

The following quotes are from January 2019 article looking at work of Mark Fisher & Capitalist Realism....

_Capitalist Realism as.....a widespread sense of resignation over the foregone conclusion that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town....._

._..He saw the rise of Donald Trump and Brexit as a reaction to that resignation: both represented a “fantasy of nationalist revival,”....._

( and devastatingly mistaken )

_... Capitalist realism is beginning to break in the United Kingdom, where Jeremy Corbyn is on track to become the next prime minister. Mark saw this before his death._....

( hope against hopelessness ? 10 million people voted for Corbyn led LP )

The Beginning of the End of Capitalist Realism


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## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

I am an optimist by and large (despite being reclusive and anti-social) with an abiding belief in the cyclical nature of reality...but feel we  have gone over the cliff, with an increasing likelihood of falling into fascism. There is a fatalistic perception, amongst my friends and family, that resources are going to be scarcer and while those with sufficient wealth feel they are somewhat insulated (although I fail to see how you can buy your way out of rising sea levels or widespread pandemics), it will be those of us with more precarious positions (along with much of the global south) who are elbowed into oblivion (as unproductive mouths or worse, choosing to become a burden) - yep, I have heard this said, particularly when relating to homelessness. The diminishment of labour (rather than Labour) has been an insidious trope with  layers and layers of stratification. My daughter and her colleagues in the front line of social care feel they have nowhere to go. Strike action is no good at all because they are not seeking individual redress in terms of pay and conditions, but a reassessment of the huge bureaucratic (and resource sucking) middle-management, stuffed to the gills with business metrics (the process, the monitoring, the outcomes, statistics, spin, allocations...where compassion simply cannot be shoehorned into some business school of 'successful outcomes'...while families and children are not even getting many of the crumbs which fall from the table. How to combat Capital when it is seen as literally the only option? Retreat or put yourself on the line? I feel I have failed as a parent by emphasising social duty, service, sharing, kindness and community...as my empathetic daughter is being consumed with grief while harder, more detached, workers can  somehow ignore the fact that we are all the same under our skin.
Not feeling too resilient today (need to do some restorative pruning and wait for new shoots and buds).


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## Libertad (Dec 18, 2019)

Solidarity sister campanula


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## StoneRoad (Dec 18, 2019)

Thursday's election result - the triumph of greed and racism, on top of various personal losses this year, has toppled me back into hopelessness.
The work I do seems harder than ever, as our clients/customers are finding that trying to get funding for restoration projects is becoming more and more difficult.
My inner self was buoyed up by our garden over the summer (such as it was), now that looks as decrepit and dead as it can be. A long, long time until Spring.


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## Edie (Dec 18, 2019)

I try and remember that as an overall trend we remain so much more better off now than we ever have been. Ever. Not everyone, but generally. Worldwide and in this country. Yes there are some who genuinely have to rely on food banks and are homeless and that is shit and avoidable. But for the majority we have seen generation on generation improvements in living standards, healthcare, leisure time, technology, food quality, environmental standards. No point getting so pessimistic you can’t see the wood for the trees.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> The following quotes are from January 2019 article looking at work of Mark Fisher & Capitalist Realism....
> 
> _Capitalist Realism as.....a widespread sense of resignation over the foregone conclusion that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town....._
> 
> ...


 thanks for that link, this bit seems to sum up Urban atm:


> And he saw that resignation in how leftists communicated with each other, describing, in one of his most famous essays, “Exiting the Vampire’s Castle,” how leftists have abandoned solidarity, shared experience, and common purpose in favor of essentialism, individual turf-guarding, and brand-building, often weaponizing identity to bludgeon each other rather than build an effective movement. Tragically, the approach paralyzes these movements, making them unable to take up the urgent task of fighting oppression or much of anything else.


 I think solidarity is key and I'm trying to establish it where ever I can. As have you brixtonscot - remember that you have given me hope.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> And friendofdorothy , it's not just worse than Thatcherism now.....I think it is also a deeper continuous entrenchment of Thatcherism.....her legacy in much of the "post-industrial" North , and also seen in all the selfish , hyper-individualistic bastard children of Thatcherism now coming of age


 yes it it much MUCH worse than Thatcherism now, true. 
You have inspired me to change my tagline


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## brixtonscot (Dec 18, 2019)

Edie said:


> I try and remember that as an overall trend we remain so much more better off now than we ever have been. Ever. Not everyone, but generally. Worldwide and in this country. Yes there are some who genuinely have to rely on food banks and are homeless and that is shit and avoidable. But for the majority we have seen generation on generation improvements in living standards, healthcare, leisure time, technology, food quality, environmental standards. No point getting so pessimistic you can’t see the wood for the trees.



I'm sure I remember reading that relative living standards in UK had been historically gradually improving in general - until the advent of ......Thatcherism , when they started to go into decline , for the first time ever.

"Thatcherism" is probably wrong term , as it should more accurately be called neo-liberalist capitalism.
Drawn up by Chicago school of Economists , first brutally implemented by CIA assisted coup in Chile , then taken up by Reagans govt in USA , and Thatcher's in U.K.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 18, 2019)

I have the impression most of us commenting here are getting on a bit ( I"m 66 ) and that shapes and informs our views , for worse or better.

It would be good to hear opinions of younger folk too......IF there are many on U75 or any suggestions where else to look ?


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## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

Edie said:


> I try and remember that as an overall trend we remain so much more better off now than we ever have been.



I don't think we are, tbh. Wages have been in decline for 40 years. It is a fucking disgrace that so many working people need to be subsidised through tax credits (essentially, like Housing benefit, a subsidy for employers and landlords Housing is in utter crisis with the relationship between salary:mortgage borrowing broken, no social contracts between landlords and tenants, benefit caps. Public services are worse, right across the board. My children grew up with youth clubs, cheap swimming ( leisure facilities all privately owned and unaffordable). Education - what can I say - on every single level, from primary schools to HE it has become a brutally selective, exclusive process of sharp elbows and sharper practice. Food and agruculture - this us a disaster zone - we are looking at intense soil erosion - parts of East Anglia are a summer dustbowl with unprecedented disease levels. You work in the NHS - tell me this is better and how.  Energy - privatised, spendy and inefficient as water companies fail to invest in infrastructure (the recent floodings are not simply weather and not even climate change...but a woeful mix of greed, neglect, insane policies (such as grouse moors) with the priorities clearly revealed... no money for places like Yarmouth. More children in poverty...with mental health crises. More loneliness.
So, we have the internet, cheap consumer goods (bit always with a price for someone). I think the myth of progress - each generation being better off than previous, is exactly that - a myth. 

eta - quite a lot of keyboard letters have been worn away - particularly the entire top line from r,t,y,u,i,o which are completely blank, so apols for terrible spelling


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## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

However, this thread is about 'Combating Hopelessness'...not having a bloody great whine so...my plan (such as it is). I sowed my first wildflower meadow this summer. I have wanted to trial the concept for ages but meadows tend not to translate into small urban gardens (my customers)...but do work rather well in  larger, council-owned public spaces. I had a patch of awful soil (after grubbing out a dozen blackcurrants) so ordered 100grammes of wildflower and native grass seed (with a few extra seeds and plantlets and spent summer, prepping the area.
More and more councils are abandoning traditional 'bedding out' in favour of sustainable community gardening - our council not being one. They are both lazy and cheap and have come up with a wheeze to monetize public gardening by allowing residents to plant out verges. but are charging us £117 for an individual 'licence'.
However, I will be taking pics of my meadow and, armed with both theory, practice and pics, I will be nagging the council to set up a city-wide gardening initiative, providing seeds, advice and getting as many people as possible reclaiming our public spaces, one cornflower, wallflower, dianthus at a time. And not paying to do so because we will go ahead and do it anyway. I will keep the thread updated.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 18, 2019)

campanula said:


> And not paying to do so because we will go ahead and do it anyway. I will keep the thread updated.



at the risk of stating the bloody obvious, but are you aware of GuerrillaGardening.org ?


----------



## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

Puddy_Tat said:


> at the risk of stating the bloody obvious, but are you aware of GuerrillaGardening.org ?



I am...and cheerfully participate. It can be very sporadic and patchy, with very mixed results. Also, tends to involve planting mature plants which have been donated or home-grown, so works best when the spaces are small and accessible and clearly benefit from a clean-up and addition of a few tough and resilient plants. To plant a roundabout or pavement verges requires place specific plants, in quantity...and the best method (most economical and environmentally sound) is to grow from seed...which is a longer-term project and requires a certain amount of co-ordination.  Community planting is also about an investment of energy, engagement and commitment, rather than just a handful of people, planting in secret. Both methods are valid and result in a net gain.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Dec 18, 2019)

campanula said:


> However, this thread is about 'Combating Hopelessness'...not having a bloody great whine so...my plan (such as it is). I sowed my first wildflower meadow this summer. I have wanted to trial the concept for ages but meadows tend not to translate into small urban gardens (my customers)...but do work rather well in  larger, council-owned public spaces. I had a patch of awful soil (after grubbing out a dozen blackcurrants) so ordered 100grammes of wildflower and native grass seed (with a few extra seeds and plantlets and spent summer, prepping the area.
> More and more councils are abandoning traditional 'bedding out' in favour of sustainable community gardening - our council not being one. They are both lazy and cheap and have come up with a wheeze to monetize public gardening by allowing residents to plant out verges. but are charging us £117 for an individual 'licence'.
> However, I will be taking pics of my meadow and, armed with both theory, practice and pics, I will be nagging the council to set up a city-wide gardening initiative, providing seeds, advice and getting as many people as possible reclaiming our public spaces, one cornflower, wallflower, dianthus at a time. And not paying to do so because we will go ahead and do it anyway. I will keep the thread updated.



One of the reasons that I consider going back home is that the four acres there is currently being farmed by a neighbor who puts it in corn every year.  That's bad for the soil, bad for biodiversity, wastes water, and requires a lot of pesticides.  I think sometimes of taking it back and putting it into a food forest, planting native species, and rebuilding my father's orchard.  (There's currently only one apple tree left.)  It would be a much better use of the land than just one more corn field.


----------



## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> One of the reasons that I consider going back home is that the four acres there is currently being farmed by a neighbor who puts it in corn every year.  That's bad for the soil, bad for biodiversity, wastes water, and requires a lot of pesticides.  I think sometimes of taking it back and putting it into a food forest, planting native species, and rebuilding my father's orchard.  (There's currently only one apple tree left.)  It would be a much better use of the land than just one more corn field.



For over 200 years, farmers in east anglia practiced the Norfolk crop rotation...or 4 course system. I imagine there are similar methods in Nebraska, Yuwipi. My farmer neighbour still adheres to this exact system (although he grows sugar beet instead of turnips). However, there are so very few small, mixed farms...and for people outside of farming families, it is an over-capitalised, closed shop of massive land tenure systems and intense soil wrecking agriculture. Some parts of industrially farmed Norfolk are almost wild-life deserts with highly managed islands of National Trustified ersatz  pastoral redoubts.  Urban bees are frequently healthier than their rural relatives..Soil is a precious declining resource. Planting a seed is a true act of hope...and gardening, which requires no great outlay, no specialist tools, can be practiced by everyone and is a truly immersive, sensual, creative, nurturing experience - what's not to love?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 18, 2019)

Isn't it weird and fucked up that connection with nature, planting seeds, enjoying the company of plants and thinking of the Plant realm as important and significant is considered to be revolutionary or subversive or odd.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Isn't it weird and fucked up that connection with nature, planting seeds, enjoying the company of plants and thinking of the Plant realm as important and significant is considered to be revolutionary or subversive or odd.



i think it's only considered to be subversive and odd when a big-business garden centre isn't involved...


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## Yuwipi Woman (Dec 18, 2019)

campanula said:


> For over 200 years, farmers in east anglia practiced the Norfolk crop rotation...or 4 course system. I imagine there are similar methods in Nebraska, Yuwipi. My farmer neighbour still adheres to this exact system (although he grows sugar beet instead of turnips). However, there are so very few small, mixed farms...and for people outside of farming families, it is an over-capitalised, closed shop of massive land tenure systems and intense soil wrecking agriculture. Some parts of industrially farmed Norfolk are almost wild-life deserts with highly managed islands of National Trustified ersatz  pastoral redoubts.  Urban bees are frequently healthier than their rural relatives..Soil is a precious declining resource. Planting a seed is a true act of hope...and gardening, which requires no great outlay, no specialist tools, can be practiced by everyone and is a truly immersive, sensual, creative, nurturing experience - what's not to love?



Most of the farmers around here use "modern" farming methods and follow the book of tables the seed/fertilizer/pesticide manufacturers give them.  My father used to use organic methods, cover crops, and crop rotation when he was farming it.  I think that takes better care of the land than farming by "the book."


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## StoneRoad (Dec 18, 2019)

After the despair from the election result (and well into winter up here) I need to combat the feeling of hopelessness.
So ...
I'm going to do the bird boxes and garden planning / pruning ready for the new year.
Those I know I can achieve.
For other things; help a friend with the fight for PIP etc and with the DWP ... maybe some other activism
Try to get some more projects for the workshop

And finally, some self improvement measures - take more exercise and better diet. (Watching I don't drop my already low blood pressure).

[I will have to cut myself some slack in January - first anniversary for my father dying - and at least one more funeral]


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I think sometimes of taking it back and putting it into a food forest, planting native species, and rebuilding my father's orchard.


 I think planting a tree is very much combatting hoplessness, especially those species of tree that you probably won't live long enough to see mature. That really is hope.


----------



## campanula (Dec 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Isn't it weird and fucked up that connection with nature, planting seeds, enjoying the company of plants and thinking of the Plant realm as important and significant is considered to be revolutionary or subversive or odd.



It's difficult to resist full-on hippy mode here and I am cautious about   centreing 'nature' as the focus of activity (although it is an area where I feel comfortable and has profound environmental relevance). In some ways, it is almost incidental to the collective action of reclaiming public space. with added value. I really like the idea that we are not being passive consumers and can also find common ground (literally) and affiliations which are not predicated on (tribally toxic) positions.


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## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> The following quotes are from January 2019 article looking at work of Mark Fisher & Capitalist Realism....
> 
> _Capitalist Realism as.....a widespread sense of resignation over the foregone conclusion that neoliberal capitalism is the only game in town....._
> 
> ...



I've found I've had to put several threads here on ignore due to what he is criticising. Only recently have I had to do this. "Calling" people out for example:


> weaponizing identity to bludgeon each other rather than build an effective movement



He is right to say class is important.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

campanula said:


> It's difficult to resist full-on hippy mode here and I am cautious about   centreing 'nature' as the focus of activity (although it is an area where I feel comfortable and has profound environmental relevance). In some ways, it is almost incidental to the collective action of reclaiming public space. with added value. I really like the idea that we are not being passive consumers and can also find common ground (literally) and affiliations which are not predicated on (tribally toxic) positions.


reclaiming space for people in general and not just for private enjoyment of a few rich people is a radical idea that predates any hippy ideas. I'm finding green politics, guerrilla gardening, enviromentalism, exinction rebellion etc all  very hopeful and fits in well with ideas of looking after ourselves, each other and world.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I've found I've had to put several threads here on ignore due to what he is criticising. Only recently have I had to do this. "Calling" people out for example:
> 
> He is right to say class is important.


 Not sure what you are saying about other threads (is it relavent? - please don't bring beefs from elsewhere here, that gives me no hope at all) 
We know you think class is important.  I always thought the best ideas come from the bottom up the top down. 

How do we support each other to combat hopelessness?
I think hope must come from many directions in many forms.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Not sure what you are saying about other threads (is it relavent? - please don't bring beefs from elsewhere here, that gives me no hope at all)
> We know you think class is important.  I always thought the best ideas come from the bottom up the top down.
> 
> How do we support each other to combat hopelessness?
> I think hope must come from many directions in many forms.



I was agreeing with the article. I thought you agreed with it.

Who is the "we"?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 18, 2019)

campanula said:


> It's difficult to resist full-on hippy mode here and I am cautious about   centreing 'nature' as the focus of activity (although it is an area where I feel comfortable and has profound environmental relevance). In some ways, it is almost incidental to the collective action of reclaiming public space. with added value. I really like the idea that we are not being passive consumers and can also find common ground (literally) and affiliations which are not predicated on (tribally toxic) positions.



This collective action does go on. I do see it in my area.

People banding together to try to save an adventure playground, sports club run by volunteers to help local children. I could go on.

There is in my area ( Brixton / Loughborough Junction in London) a lot of small things going on. A few of which I'm involved in.

So its about keeping space for collective use outside of need to generate profit. Things that are socially useful like providing adventure space for children. 

What I had been hoping is that a Labour government would get to power to step in to guarantee future of say adventure playgrounds.

Secondly Corbyn Labour party did mean my local New Labour Cllrs behaved a bit differently. Now I'm afraid that will change.

So it feels hopeless as locals I know who have been involved in local campaigns may fail in long term.

On the other hand I have found it does me good to be part of some kind of local collective action.

Finding the time is the problem. Which goes for a lot of people I know. They would like to do more but a lot of their lives are spent working for a living.


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## SheilaNaGig (Dec 19, 2019)

Not just working, but struggling to make ends meet, being exhausted by the inability to do so, stretched thin with nothing left over.

It’s a very effective and efficient way to keep the masses under the heel.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 19, 2019)

The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters. #Gramsci


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> Who is the "we"?


sorry - suppose I should say I / urbanz / people in general.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> The old world is dying, and the new world struggles to be born; now is the time of monsters. #Gramsci


That sounds very dark. Are you ok?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Not just working, but struggling to make ends meet, being exhausted by the inability to do so, stretched thin with nothing left over.
> 
> It’s a very effective and efficient way to keep the masses under the heel.


 yes absolutely.


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## 8ball (Dec 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Not just working, but struggling to make ends meet, being exhausted by the inability to do so, stretched thin with nothing left over.
> 
> It’s a very effective and efficient way to keep the masses under the heel.



Look after yourself - hope you have some time over xmas break lined up to take care of yourself.


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## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry - suppose I should say I / urbanz / people in general.



So you are a spokesperson for Urbanz and people in general?

Who are these people?


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

This is a film made in Brixton as part of a project by the Museum of London about recording ordinary people. 
They posed the question





> In a time of political and economic unrest, what gives you hope?


It is a film about young activists meeting older activists with a general thread of hope through it. There is a lovely bit when one of the Cressingham Gardens Activists says something about maybe realising you can't change the whole world but you _can_ change your corner of it. It explores subjects as various as gay street theatre in the 70s to community gardening in Loughborough Junction now. The young activists gave me a sense of hope. 

We The People – free film screening, Brixton Library, Tues 26th Nov 2019

We The People (@WTP_Brixton) on Twitter

There have been free local showings but that is all so far, hopefully it will be on the museums website eventually.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> So you are a spokesperson for Urbanz and people in general?


no. Was an apology not enough? I don't want an argument

edited to reflect what I meant better:


friendofdorothy said:


> Not sure what you are saying about other threads (is it relavent? - please don't bring beefs from elsewhere here, that gives me no hope at all)
> *I* know you think class is important.  I always thought the best ideas come from the bottom up the top down.
> 
> How do we as *Urbanz/people in general* support each other to combat hopelessness?
> I think hope must come from many directions in many forms.


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## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> no. Was an apology not enough? I don't want an argument



I didn't start this. Your previous post was not an apology.

I was not seeking an apology. I was asking for clarification.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

Gramsci said:


> I didn't start this. Your previous post was not an apology.
> 
> I was not seeking and apology. I was asking for clarification.


it began with 'sorry'  and I thought I was clarifying.


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## Gramsci (Dec 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> it began with 'sorry'  and I thought I was clarifying.



It might be best if you leave this alone. I have no wish to continue this as its disrupting this thread


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## 8ball (Dec 20, 2019)

Getting the weirdest deja vu thing...


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 20, 2019)

I'm feeling hopeless and am struggling to cope in a cruel mean world. 

Its friday night and I'm full of cold and feel like screaming...


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## brixtonscot (Dec 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> That sounds very dark. Are you ok?



I guess it is very dark , reflecting the dark times we are living through.
I posted it as some attempt at explanation - and *hopefully* only temporary.

Otherwise , I'm more miserable than usual.
Had to go to Dulwich Community hospital at 3am this morning for pain in my leg.
Cab driver going tried to charge me £20  ( £10 for return )
Home now & resting x


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## brixtonscot (Dec 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm feeling hopeless and am struggling to cope in a cruel mean world.
> 
> Its friday night and I'm full of cold and feel like screaming...



Hope you feel better soon x


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## Poot (Dec 21, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> I guess it is very dark , reflecting the dark times we are living through.
> I posted it as some attempt at explanation - and *hopefully* only temporary.
> 
> Otherwise , I'm more miserable than usual.
> ...


Is your leg any better? Sending positive vibes.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 21, 2019)

Poot said:


> Is your leg any better? Sending positive vibes.



Yes , bit better now , thanks....hoping to make it to Alabama 3 at Academy tonight......but that will be testing too with absence of Jake Black


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## brixtonscot (Dec 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> This is a film made in Brixton as part of a project by the Museum of London about recording ordinary people.
> They posed the question
> It is a film about young activists meeting older activists with a general thread of hope through it. There is a lovely bit when one of the Cressingham Gardens Activists says something about maybe realising you can't change the whole world but you _can_ change your corner of it. It explores subjects as various as gay street theatre in the 70s to community gardening in Loughborough Junction now. The young activists gave me a sense of hope.
> 
> ...



Maybe we need to kidnap some young energetic , optimistic activists to contribute here to cheer us up


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 21, 2019)

Thank you brixtonscot. Hope the leg pain has gone.  Do hope you are well enough for the gig, sending all good wishes x


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 21, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> Maybe we need to kidnap some young energetic , optimistic activists to contribute here to cheer us up


good idea - we* are turning into miserable old gits.

* = you and me/urbs in general


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 21, 2019)

I did have a positive thought - that I should go through this thread and make a list of all the good and positive suggestions people have made since 2014 to look at when feel I need inspiration and hope.

but some other time.  I'm full of cold and going back to bed now...


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 21, 2019)

I've been out and about in Loughborough Junction and Brixton today (London) ended up having chats with locals I know.

Some of whom are involved in the local community and joined Labour party due to Corbyn.

They are of the view to keep going despite the defeat. Also to continue to oppose the New Labour Council .

One said at least we have left MP to replace awful Chuka in Streatham.

Another was a younger person who joined and did a lot of local canvassing to support Corbyn.. A lot of young people want something different to the choice between Tories and Tory Lite Labour party. I feel for them.

On Brixton Forum its got worse. New poster coming on to have a go. Really depressing online and infuriating. To be expected I suppose. But not offline. I'd say in my local area people don't want Tories or New Labour.


----------



## CH1 (Dec 26, 2019)

Late to this thread......

I've been intrigued for years by depression vs demoralisation.

In India demoralisation used to figure greatly in the analysis of the fate of married women, who often have to contend with living with their mother-in-law who dotes on mother-in-law's son/wife's husband.

I understood that apart from an unusually high incidence of psychiatric presentation by wives this also - in the worst cases - led to immolation on kerosene stoves. The question then being was it suicide by a wife criticised literally to death, or could it indeed have been murder.

Sorry to bring things down to this sort of level, but I feel sometimes we need to appreciate that other people's problems can be even worse.

As regards disappointment by thwarting of ideals this was discussed by the philosopher John Grey on Radio 4 on Sunday BBC Radio 4 - A Point of View, The recurrent dream of an end-time

John Grey - a long-time Brexiter - seems to feels that all utopian projects either lead to disappointment or disaster.

I myself am seriously disappointed by the Brexit out-turn and the election of Boris. But is it time to take a step back and cultivate my garden - to quote Voltaire.

In this regard I have to agree with Gramsci that it is gratifying when local community initiatives come forward and gather support.


----------



## brixtonscot (Dec 26, 2019)

Some good points CH1
Differentiatons between young/old , urban/rural , individual/collective...

Individual distress tends to get
 classed as "depression" , collective as "demoralisation"

At least part of the problem could be that we are all brought up with sanitized fairy tales of "happy ever after".....and then we get "haunted" by imagined futures that don't happen
 (hauntology)
A Future with No Future: Depression, the Left, and the Politics of Mental Health


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## 8ball (Dec 26, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> Some good points CH1
> Differentiatons between young/old , urban/rural , individual/collective...
> 
> Individual distress tends to get
> ...



That link between the nature of depression and the nature of capitalist realism (universal, unending, non-negotiable), isn’t something I’d seen put into words before.

I think me and some others I know (on here and off) have been feeling the weight of that synergy of late.  It’s good to see it discussed in these terms.


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## CH1 (Dec 27, 2019)

I had never heard of Mark Fisher before perusing this thread - but found this newspaper article frightening.
Renowned writer and K-Punk blogger Mark Fisher from Felixstowe took own life after battle with depression

I am going to be discharged from SLAM on January 8th - and my GP only offers telephone consultations. I will be in the same boat as Mark Fisher was.

Fortunately I am nowhere near as intelligent - and my mood state is permanently dowsed down with lithium, so I'm pretty certain I won't be taking my life. That said nobody in the NHS is really prepared to discuss whether a life on lithium is a fully rewarding experience.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Dec 27, 2019)

CH1 said:


> I had never heard of Mark Fisher before perusing this thread - but found this newspaper article frightening.
> Renowned writer and K-Punk blogger Mark Fisher from Felixstowe took own life after battle with depression
> 
> I am going to be discharged from SLAM on January 8th - and my GP only offers telephone consultations. I will be in the same boat as Mark Fisher was.
> ...



Psychiatry has always been fiercely political.

I don't work for the NHS, but im always happy to discuss your thoughts on whether a life on  lithium is a fully rewarding experience..


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## CH1 (Dec 27, 2019)

ice-is-forming said:


> Psychiatry has always been fiercely political.
> 
> I don't work for the NHS, but im always happy to discuss your thoughts on whether a life on  lithium is a fully rewarding experience..


Just for a more general audience, I seem to recall Robert Lowell the American poet apparently called lithium "dust in the blood" - and generally tried to avoid treatment.

I happened upon this National Public Radio audio blog featuring Kay Redfield Jamison, the bipolar academic who has just brought out a book about Lowell.
NPR Choice page

There is a sort of romanticism about manic depression in particular. However Kay Redfield Jamison fills in the downside - ie 20 hospital admissions for mania during Lowell's life.

I haven't read up Jamison recently, but her usual position used to be that she herself needed to take lithium to function correctly - and she was thankful that her husband would encourage her not to stop given the experiences she had had when coming off lithium and having an "episode". 

In this broadcast she says that it was only when taking lithium that Lowell could be sure of not becoming dangerously manic, notwithstanding the effect on his creativity.

For your information I am only Bipolar 2, so lithium in my case helps me get out of bed and avoid suicidal ideation.

Sounds as though it might have helped Mark Fisher - though in my experience UK psychiatric services dislike prescribing lithium. They'd rather have you on Olanzapine, weighing 25 stone and needing multiple "services".


----------



## ice-is-forming (Dec 27, 2019)

CH1 said:


> Just for a more general audience, I seem to recall Robert Lowell the American poet apparently called lithium "dust in the blood" - and generally tried to avoid treatment.
> 
> I happened upon this National Public Radio audio blog featuring Kay Redfield Jamison, the bipolar academic who has just brought out a book about Lowell.
> NPR Choice page
> ...



Neither lithium or Olanzapine are perfect, with both having class actions taken against the producers. Plus I've see the outcome of long term use. But it also sucks to have suicidal thoughts. Such   toxic and limited treatment. But yeah... having spent a life time self medicating bi-polar with what would be called drugs of addiction ( don't get me wrong I've had my fair share of psych meds too) personally I've realised that I can control it reasonably well these days to stay unmedicated, post menopause.   And having said that I can quite affirmatively guarantee that if I become unwell again I will, as usual, be the last person to know. And a psych will want me back on the meds.

Sometimes  are harder than others but Ive been observent and can predict these with some degree of accuracy. It's always hard to tell how I've done though. Waiting with the fear to see what about my life i might have broken ...  But recently it's been okay...

I'm not sure that I've ever bought into the romanticism of bipolar. Because the effects and ripples are so destructive. And that's without mentioning the living hell that is suicidality. The document brixtonscot  posted up there ^^ is one of the best I've read for a while now, thank you.


----------



## brixtonscot (Dec 28, 2019)

This is old article from 1993 , and while it is quite bleak , cynical even , I think it contains many truths.
It also contains an element of hope ( in bold ) ....and that is quite a challenge 

*What takes their place when the fairy-tales fail ?*

_by Joyce McMillan_

Scotland on Sunday  29 Aug 1993

At the Traverse Theatre this Edinburgh Festival there is an interesting

show called Night After Night, by Neil Bartlett's Gloria company. It

promises a little more than it can deliver; but there's something

haunting about the questions it raises. For what it tries to do is

examine the strange, intense relationship between some gay men working  

in the theatre, and the big romantic musicals many of them once worked on,

and continue to adore.


On the one hand, these men love the whole business of the musical, the

romantic curve of the storyline, the happy climax, the sense of the

characters finding their true destiny in one another.

But on the other, they are inevitably excluded from the boy-meets-girl neatness

of the plot, with its final sense of a family founded, and the happiness of the

hero and heroine stretching on into a boundless future; so that their

intense appreciation of the form is shot through with a sense of

sadness, and hopeless yearning.

And as I watched the show, I realised that it's not only gay men, these days,

who must feel a sense of permanent exclusion from this kind of romantic story.


A few days later, I was in the Assembly Rooms, watching an exquisite,

joyful Midsummer Night's Dream from Georgia, and found myself

weeping with sheer nostalgia for the life-affirming exuberance of it all;

at this point, Shakespeare was so confident of the idea of erotic,

heterosexual marriage as a key to social harmony that he made the whole

world of nature reflect the temporary row between Oberon and Titania -

summer buds in midwinter, green corn rotting in the fields - and come

back to itself only when they were together once more.


And how can any of us now watch this kind of romance without a

profound sense of loss ?

Of course, the number of people who actually achieved great long-term happiness

through the conventional pattern of marriage was always small.

But today we are constantly showered with facts and images that rob us

even of the faint hope of a traditional happy ending.


Last week's Scottish Office report on divorce, wanly titled Untying The

Knot, shows that marriage is fast becoming an explicitly provisional

contract, with no strong expectation of permanence on any part.

The stream of media stories about the stresses on single mothers

emphasise the ugly truth that parenthood often divides men and women

more than it unites them. And last week, the Mothers' Union itself

published an article arguing that conventional marriage is overrated, and

we ought to re-institute some kind of ''clan'' system of extended family living.


And in a sense, all of this can be seen as a healthy development, a

final rejection of the big lie that conventional families equal happy

families. But the collapse of all these old assumptions has also utterly

robbed us of our fairy-tales, our dreams, the stories with which, in our

culture, we used to attempt to make sense of our lives.


We have seen, rightly, that it is nonsense to bring up a modern little

girl on a diet of Cinderella, and the assumption that some day her

Prince will come to resolve her life.

But the trouble is that we have no alternative that offers anything like the

same sense of magic and coherence.

We can parody the original story; we can make Cinders marry Buttons,

or set up a menage-a-trois with the Ugly Sisters.


We can commit ourselves to the militant shapelessness of modernism,

which defies narrative and questions the very idea of meaning.

But we cannot work the magic those old stories worked.

We cannot take the common stuff of life and link it confidently to a whole order of the

universe; we cannot imagine the deep, hard-won, richly-patinaed joy that

came from the simultaneous fulfillment of individual needs, and those of

a whole society.


As individuals, we probably experience far more moments of happiness

than our ancestors did.

But our happiness has a thin quality; it lacks social resonance.

We marry, but it is a private matter.

We have children, but no one takes pleasure in their existence except ourselves

and the odd grandparent. We see fine sights and beautiful things;

but when we get home, no one looks at our holiday snaps,

and the journey becomes meaningless.


Now of course the suspicion that life may be a tale told by an idiot,

signifying nothing, has always plagued people who survived into middle

age; Dante in his dark forest, Shakespeare who lost the will to write

those joyful comedies, all those who know the sense of stasis that comes

when the long drive towards adulthood and parenthood slides into the

past, and the only big ''life-event'' left is death.


But now it seems that even young people must share this sense that there

is no shape, no point, no storyline, as if the whole culture had become

a victim of mid-life crisis.

Romance ?   Don't make me laugh.

Fulfillment at work ?   You'll be doing well to get a job at all.

And kids ?   More trouble than they're worth; just treat you like a cashpoint,

and remind you of your ex.


And the point about all this - the shapelessness, the cynicism,

the entropy, the rejection of old dreams, the inability to develop new

ones - is that it is not sustainable.

Human beings crave meaning and need dreams.

We need to know what to hope for;

and very few are loners enough to draw the whole map for themselves.


The rest of us like to feel part of some rhythm, some order of things;

and the more we mouth the inadequate rhetoric of ''do your own thing''

and ''it's nobody else's business'', the greater becomes the danger of

an hysterical lurch back towards a sexual politics that is strict,

secure, authoritarian, and ultimately fascistic.

The seeds of it exist already, in the alarming macho imagery of video games and

science-fantasy movies, in the screaming tabloid campaigns against lone

mothers.

And those of us who fear that kind of backlash must face the

fact that knocking down old stereotypes is not enough.


*If we tear down an old patriarchal civilisation with all its myths and*

*legends, then we must begin to build a new one, with new templates of*

*joy and fulfilment, new romantic visions; and we have to make those*

*visions as erotic and magical as the old ones.*


When an artist like Neil Bartlett asks the right questions,

there is a faint flicker of hope that we may be up to the task.


But most of the time, the only answers I can see on the horizon are

those of the reactionaries, the ones who want to get back to some lost

paradise of ''normality'' in which papa rules, and women, children, and

homosexuals know their place.

They fill me with dread.

But their creed has a terrible clarity, in a time of growing confusion and fear;

and that makes them dangerous indeed.

The rest of us like to feel part of some rhythm, some order of things.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Dec 28, 2019)

That's a well written piece. I had come to the same conclusion by 1993.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Dec 28, 2019)

Edie said:


> I try and remember that as an overall trend we remain so much more better off now than we ever have been. Ever. Not everyone, but generally. Worldwide and in this country. Yes there are some who genuinely have to rely on food banks and are homeless and that is shit and avoidable. But for the majority we have seen generation on generation improvements in living standards, healthcare, leisure time, technology, food quality, environmental standards. No point getting so pessimistic you can’t see the wood for the trees.



NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


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## Edie (Dec 28, 2019)

bellaozzydog said:


> NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO


Expand


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Dec 29, 2019)

Improved  “leisure time, technology, food quality, environmental standards”? 
Not in my life. Work now invades all our time - due largely to technology and deunionisation - There are  microplastics in ALL your food, including the “organic” that is more expensive and out of the reach of many, even in Britain. Environmental standards, rules and regulations are not worth shit if they are ignored.  From where I sit many places that were recognisably rural or unspoilt when I was younger are now urbanising, commodifying, deteriorating - and that is in Britain with it’s “world class” protections. Species extinctions rise almost unremarked in mainstream discourse. The air in London contains more microplastics than many industrial cities in China.
What some see as the technologically advanced utopia looks to me like the basis of psychological, physical and spiritual totalitarianism - we can see where things are going now - see China’s social credit and mass surveillance, see Populism with its armies of unreachable conspiraloon zombies, see the levels of stress and mental illness in the most “advanced” economies.

 You might, technically, have a point with healthcare, were not the NHS in such a state and now likely to be increasingly commercialised and commodified. You might have a point, globally with living standards - the coming climate crisis will see those off for most. 

Sorry, but in the UK we are in a relative prosperity bubble, which still has massive poverty. In development terms, globally we may be near the top of the arc, we will see how steep the descent is going to be if capitalism, resource exhaustion and climate crisis continue and intensify, as they look likely to do, now that most of the world is now under the control of brutal, lying, idiot oligarchs.

It is all coming down, one way or another.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 30, 2019)

Edie said:


> I try and remember that as an overall trend we remain so much more better off now than we ever have been. Ever. Not everyone, but generally. Worldwide and in this country. Yes there are some who genuinely have to rely on food banks and are homeless and that is shit and avoidable. But for the majority we have seen generation on generation improvements in living standards, healthcare, leisure time, technology, food quality, environmental standards. No point getting so pessimistic you can’t see the wood for the trees.


Yes I've heard it said that things are better, but who for? I'm not trying to be pessimistic - just realistic. 

But I don't think that year on year improvement is possible and if it ever has been it is at the earths expense - someone always has to pay. The gap between the richest and poorest is definitely increasing in the uk. I'm not sure about worldwide.


----------



## Edie (Dec 30, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Yes I've heard it said that things are better, but who for? I'm not trying to be pessimistic - just realistic.
> 
> But I don't think that year on year improvement is possible and if it ever has been it is at the earths expense - someone always has to pay. The gap between the richest and poorest is definitely increasing in the uk. I'm not sure about worldwide.


Is the gap all what counts? Compared to my grandparents generation, young adults in the Second World War, prior to universal healthcare, when being in service was still a thing, no central heating, slums, rampant mysogyny no gay rights, women in institutions for having babies out of wedlock. Are you seriously trying to argue that it’s harder today? Take off your rose tinted spectacles. Sorry to say this cos your all kind and well meaning people but the kind of handwringing and self pity of this kind is badly misplaced.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 30, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> Some good points CH1
> Differentiatons between young/old , urban/rural , individual/collective...
> 
> Individual distress tends to get
> classed as "depression" , collective as "demoralisation"


 It seems govt policy with regard to the disabled / unemployed is one of demoralisation. Shifting the blame for the illness / lack of employment on to the individual rather than the uncaring nature of our economic system.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 30, 2019)

Edie said:


> Is the gap all what counts? Compared to my grandparents generation, young adults in the Second World War, prior to universal healthcare, when being in service was still a thing, no central heating, slums, rampant mysogyny no gay rights, women in institutions for having babies out of wedlock. Are you seriously trying to argue that it’s harder today? Take off your rose tinted spectacles. Sorry to say this cos your all kind and well meaning people but the kind of handwringing and self pity of this kind is badly misplaced.


that's a fair point. 

Some things have improved here in the UK at least and certainly as a queer woman I'm glad I wasn't born before I was. Glad I didn't have to live through two world wars.  Glad I wasn't born before the NHS. Glad I've got a vote. Glad I didn't have to go into service aged 12. Glad I benefitted from a free education.  I know there was no golden age, and wouldn't say it is harder now, well perhaps not for us here on these boards. 

Is the difference between rich and poor is starker now or does it just seem so? Do we still a sense of family / community / friendship / solidarity - I'm not sure these things have always fared so well. A lot of pressures from our so called affluent life styles and mass media work against those bonds between people. On the other hand here we are - more in touch and connected than ever.

I started this thread by saying it was shit in the 80s but basically asking what got us through? I've always been inclined towards being miserable and looking on the dark side, but I am (hopefully) looking to combat that here.


----------



## Edie (Dec 30, 2019)

Affluenza?


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 31, 2019)

It is obviously true that for the majority of people in the UK things are better in absolute terms today than 100 years ago. But to use that as some sort of benchmark such that it is "handwringing" to look around and feel appalled at the what's happening both in the UK and worldwide is pretty awful. 

Across the western world inequality is increasing, in many places there are increases in the number of people living in poverty, already the appalling consequences of climate change are being felt (something that is only going to get worse). It is not just "rose tinted spectacles" that make many people think their children are worse off than they are - we now work longer for less pay and under worse conditions. That is having a real effect, people are dying earlier. 

To proclaim the above as "handwringing" is only a few steps away from the type of "we've never had it so good" crap promoted by people like Norberg, Pinker, etc - a horrible defence of liberalism, capitalism and inequality. It's appalling bollocks 1, 2. The improvements we have achieved have been on the basis of the solidarity friendofdorothy has talked about, they have been made in spite of capitalism not because of it. What the system such people defend has done is ensure that any "progress" has been far less significant than it should have been.

Of course we should not lose ourselves in despair at the above and we should celebrate the wins we have achieved but the "it's getting better" better nonsense needs to be placed in the bin.


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## brixtonscot (Dec 31, 2019)

Edie said:


> Is the gap all what counts? Compared to my grandparents generation, young adults in the Second World War, prior to universal healthcare, when being in service was still a thing, no central heating, slums, rampant mysogyny no gay rights, women in institutions for having babies out of wedlock. Are you seriously trying to argue that it’s harder today? Take off your rose tinted spectacles. Sorry to say this cos your all kind and well meaning people but the kind of handwringing and self pity of this kind is badly misplaced.



Yes , true.....but as been said previously on this thread , most of these improvements were implemented historically over the 20th century , largely with election of Labour govt in 1945 and introduction of welfare state. 
Up until the late 70's and the coming of Thatcherism/neoliberalism , when progress stopped and gone into decline


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## CH1 (Dec 31, 2019)

I'm intrigued by the British vs Italian approach to community care.

In the UK were have had reports and policies going on about community care in care for the elderly and psychiatric care since 1956
Care in the Community - Wikipedia
They are syill arguing about it - but the main thrust appears to have been towatds closing state institutions and opening private ones - usually run bu people trained by the NHS.

On the other hand in Italy - regarding mental health - regarding mental health - Italy passed a law in 1978 requiring the phased closure of all mental hospitals, and mandating treatment in the community.
Psychiatric reform in Italy - Wikipedia

I recall back in the 1990s some groups such as the Hearing Voices Network going on exchange visits to Trieste, which was apparently in the vanguard
of developments in Italy. Clearly if the Italians are making genuine progress here it will be more difficult to evaluate and replicate here now were are Brexiting.

Not that anyone in the NHS  will be interested in a European solution anyway. If they wanted that why did they put the newly knighted Sir Simon Stevens in charge of NHS England?  Concurrently Angell Ward (Coldharbour) councillor 1998-2002 he was a new Labour policy wonk for Frank Dobson and Tony Blair before going off for a ten year stint at United Healthcare - first in New York then Brazil.

Sir Simon most likely knows more about private healthcare for the poor than any living soul in Britain - but how does that compare to community care in Italy. That is what I want to know.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

Edie said:


> Affluenza?


I may be personally living a more comfortable life and maybe many of us urbanites are. 

However growing up I'd never heard of foodbanks and never met a homeless person.  I find it profoundly depressing that people without food or homes exist in such huge numbers in our rich nation - its a disgrace that our govt seems unembarrassed by. This is as a direct effect of govt policies, though the authorities and media seem keen to throw the problem to charities and to blame individuals.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

CH1 said:


> I'm intrigued by the British vs Italian approach to community care.
> 
> In the UK were have had reports and policies going on about community care in care for the elderly and psychiatric care since 1956
> Care in the Community - Wikipedia
> ...


 It depresses me that govt want to follow US rather than EU leads in healthcare as in so many other areas. 

It seems to me in the US they have a way of medicalising every social problem like shyness or social anxiety, then marketing a medication to 'cure' it. I suppose through TV drama and social media taking meds for mental issues is seen as common and normal even for children. Thats not to say all meds are bad - but its seems to be easier and cheaper to give out some pills than deal with the very real problems that people have.


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 31, 2019)

I had a much more comfortable early life than either of my parents in their early lives
They however,  living in an inexpensive part of the uk, through their working life and retirement,  had rising disposable income,  affordable housing,  a good life/work balance,  early retirement,  decent pensions 
As a single parent in an expensive area of the UK,  I've had harder financial times comparatively in my adult life and have seen my wages decrease in actual amount in the last decade.	I get by but I'm not financially comfortable and can't see that changing any time soon.	I work much longer hours than they did and have a much longer commute to work.   

I have benefited in loads of ways from changing social outlooks and choices and my daughter definitely has.   Although she has even less financial options than I do.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

brixtonscot said:


> This is old article from 1993 , and while it is quite bleak , cynical even , I think it contains many truths.
> It also contains an element of hope ( in bold ) ....and that is quite a challenge
> 
> *What takes their place when the fairy-tales fail ?*
> ...


 There is so much in this that I want to agree with and talk about. 

The trad idea 'family' life has been the backbone of so many political policies. Remember clause 28 talking about 'pretended family relationships' and tory talk about Victorian Family Values and protecting the institution of marriage.  I'm often amazed at how much things have changed in my adult lifetime, but we have no agreement on what replaces the old ideas, what to aspire to or what is the new ideal. 

Young people still enter into traditional marriages with proud fathers 'giving' away their daughters in white dresses -  spending thousands on that not so once-in-a-life-time party. My heart sinks when I see gay couples doing the same - is that what we marched for? 

This is the tricky bit: 


> *If we tear down an old patriarchal civilisation with all its myths and*
> 
> *legends, then we must begin to build a new one, with new templates of*
> 
> ...


 ideas and answers welcome.


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## Miss-Shelf (Dec 31, 2019)

those 


friendofdorothy said:


> There is so much in this that I want to agree with and talk about.
> 
> The trad idea 'family' life has been the backbone of so many political policies. Remember clause 28 talking about 'pretended family relationships' and tory talk about Victorian Family Values and protecting the institution of marriage.  I'm often amazed at how much things have changed in my adult lifetime, but we have no agreement on what replaces the old ideas, what to aspire to or what is the new ideal.
> 
> ...


to my mind the romantic visions of heterosexual marriage were/are about celebrating the nuclear family 
A strong bond to an inward looking circle.

New romantic visions of individuals held and looked after  in solidarity in communal life would be welcome to me

However,   it's difficult to build this community life [as we know] within present financial structures which are set up for individuals or couples.   Housing units are hard to adapt for bigger groups.   It's difficult in most areas of the UK for people to organise their living situations near to significant community friends


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I had a much more comfortable early life than either of my parents in their early lives
> They however,  living in an inexpensive part of the uk, through their working life and retirement,  had rising disposable income,  affordable housing,  a good life/work balance,  early retirement,  decent pensions
> As a single parent in an expensive area of the UK,  I've had harder financial times comparatively in my adult life and have seen my wages decrease in actual amount in the last decade.	I get by but I'm not financially comfortable and can't see that changing any time soon.	I work much longer hours than they did and have a much longer commute to work.
> 
> I have benefited in loads of ways from changing social outlooks and choices and my daughter definitely has.   Although she has even less financial options than I do.


My dad left school almost illiterate, was a worker in the same factory for 46 yrs could afford to buy a house and retired with a decent pension. Hard to imagine that happening now, even up north.

Its hard to see how extended families and communities can thrive when housing is seen a luxury. So much of the radical politics of the 60s/ 70s /80s came from people in cheap housing, cheap secure rents and squats. How can young people build continuity or anything in their lives if they are struggling to pay rent in a flat on a 6 month lease?


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> those
> 
> to my mind the romantic visions of heterosexual marriage were/are about celebrating the nuclear family
> A strong bond to an inward looking circle.
> ...


 Lets not give up looking though!


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 31, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> My heart sinks when I see gay couples doing the same - is that what we marched for?



dunno really

personally, i've no desire to be 'respectably married', to adopt children, or join the armed services (for example) but gut feeling is it's important that 'we' now at least have the right to...


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2019)

fair enough. I campaigned for relationship rights when younger but when I heard Cameron saying that he supported gay marriage because he was a tory, it made me want to throw up. Still I'm glad of the legal rights to be next of kin that civil partnership has ensured. I still struggle with the concept of being respectable now - I was so used to being underclass I haven't quite adjusted yet and have to remind myself. 

As a pacifist I find the whole gays wanting to be in the military a bit baffling. That said, I once dated someone who had been thrown out of the army for being queer, and had a friend who had been an officer on a ship the Falklands war, with medals and all. I can have sympathy for the individuals who want to 'serve' but no support for the military in general.


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## brixtonscot (Jan 1, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> fair enough. I campaigned for relationship rights when younger but when I heard Cameron saying that he supported gay marriage because he was a tory, it made me want to throw up. Still I'm glad of the legal rights to be next of kin that civil partnership has ensured. I still struggle with the concept of being respectable now - I was so used to being underclass I haven't quite adjusted yet and have to remind myself.



Agree friendofdorothy
The original Gay Liberation Front was a radical/revolutionary anti establishment movement for the sexual liberation of everybody  - taking its name to echo the communist National Liberation Front in Vietnam that the USA were waging brutal war on at the time , and aligned with black & women's liberation movements - not for conservative homosexuals who crave to be allowed to partake in conservative institutions like the military and matrimony....( somebody said marriage is institution for those who want/need to be institutionalised )

Returning to work of Mark Fisher , one of his legacies is the concept of Acid Communism , a unfinished book of which he was working on when he died , the introduction is available online ( I'll see if I can find link )

The Acid Communism Facebook page has nearly 10,000 *Likes*

“_ The concept of acid communism is a provocation and a promise. It is a joke of sorts, but one with a very serious purpose..... the convergence of class consciousness, socialist-feminist consciousness-raising, and psychedelic consciousness, the fusion of new social movements with a communist project...the sixties and early seventies had seen the left fail to connect with the 'collective euphoria' of the counterculture, leaving its embrace of freedom and pleasure to be colonised by the right. "_
Mark Fisher
More Acid Than Communism


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## brixtonscot (Jan 1, 2020)

PS. Unfinished introduction to Acid Communism
Mark Fisher | Acid Communism (Unfinished Introduction)


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## FridgeMagnet (Jan 1, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> fair enough. I campaigned for relationship rights when younger but when I heard Cameron saying that he supported gay marriage because he was a tory, it made me want to throw up. Still I'm glad of the legal rights to be next of kin that civil partnership has ensured. I still struggle with the concept of being respectable now - I was so used to being underclass I haven't quite adjusted yet and have to remind myself.
> 
> As a pacifist I find the whole gays wanting to be in the military a bit baffling. That said, I once dated someone who had been thrown out of the army for being queer, and had a friend who had been an officer on a ship the Falklands war, with medals and all. I can have sympathy for the individuals who want to 'serve' but no support for the military in general.


There is a modern subset of Tories who really are honestly personally liberal and anti-discriminatory. It doesn't contradict their political stance at all in their opinion. They might be naive as to how their position affects society and the discrimination that causes, but then you get the combination of ignoring details or sticking to a super theoretical ideological motivation because the results are painful (cognitive dissonance). We can win the war in some senses but people are adaptable, they can excuse their own selfishness pretty much regardless.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 2, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> There is a modern subset of Tories who really are honestly personally liberal and anti-discriminatory. It doesn't contradict their political stance at all in their opinion. They might be naive as to how their position affects society and the discrimination that causes, but then you get the combination of ignoring details or sticking to a super theoretical ideological motivation because the results are painful (cognitive dissonance). We can win the war in some senses but people are adaptable, they can excuse their own selfishness pretty much regardless.



I know that Cameron liked to think himself oh so modern and liberal minded - but I still found him odious.

There is an old set of Tories too, who voted for Clause 28. Plenty of tories who voted against equal age of consent, against repealing clause 28, against the equality laws and civil partnership. 

And now the Tories are lurching to the right I fear it is only a matter of time before they start attack workers rights, and to undo equality and anti-discrimation laws.  I think we must remain vigilent and remember that hard won legal protections can easily be undermined and undone.


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## bellaozzydog (Jan 5, 2020)

Today I’ve retreated from twitter facebook MSM and other shit.

i gave myself a rest from it all but over the last three days I dipped my toe back in and it’s left me fucking despairing

i’m not sure reading Mark Fisher is much good for me either 

imgur and urban are the only things I can face.

on top of that i’ve got no English speaker to have adult conversations with till 20 jan  I need a different life


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## campanula (Jan 5, 2020)

15 minutes of extra daylight already - I feel this and for sure I know my plants do. I rarely feel the need to defer to circadian rhythms (having the extra LED and sodium halide at my disposal)) but by fuck, I have grasped at any moments of usable light, these dark days. Seems like only dogwalks and weeding (my potential 'meadow') are keeping me afloat.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 5, 2020)

I hate this dark time of year and can't wait till afternoons no longer look like evenings...


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 5, 2020)

I'm feeling really hopeful that the older queer group I attend in Brixton is going strong and plans are building for next year with increased links between our group and others including intergenerational plans with groups of younger queers. Having no children and very few younger relatives I think this is important.  I made so many younger friends - they give me hope.


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## bellaozzydog (Jan 6, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm feeling really hopeful that the older queer group I attend in Brixton is going strong and plans are building for next year with increased links between our group and others including intergenerational plans with groups of younger queers. Having no children and very few younger relatives I think this is important.  I made so many younger friends - they give me hope.



intergenerational housesharing is the future I live with two 23 year olds and the majority of the time they inspire me and are Funny as fuck. just need to add an OAP and we have it all covered


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## brixtonscot (Jan 6, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> Having no children and very few younger relatives I think this is important.  I made so many younger friends - they give me hope.



True friendofdorothy . I just realised recently ( what should have been obvious ) one aspect of having or not having children could be having a differing ( personal ) perspective and concern for the future ......


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## CH1 (Jan 20, 2020)

Capitalism and Mental Health - I came across this TED Talk which resonated with me
Obviously this is more to do with subjective experience and the mental health system than it is with political analysis - but here it is


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## Serge Forward (Jan 20, 2020)

CH1 said:


> I'm intrigued by the British vs Italian approach to community care.
> 
> In the UK were have had reports and policies going on about community care in care for the elderly and psychiatric care since 1956
> Care in the Community - Wikipedia
> ...


There's a brief but interesting chapter in John Foot's book, "The Archipelago" on Italian mental health and care in the community. It seemed all very progressive, positive, person-centred and social-centred. I got the impression it had nothing at all in common with Thatcher's "care in the community" which dumped vulnerable people in deeper shit.


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## 8ball (Jan 20, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> There's a brief but interesting chapter in John Foot's book, "The Archipelago" on Italian mental health and care in the community. It seemed all very progressive, positive, person-centred and social-centred. I got the impression it had nothing at all in common with Thatcher's "care in the community" which dumped vulnerable people in deeper shit.



It's like that "Big Society" stuff - there are some ideas in there, just not in any Tory version.


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## Irish353.109 (Jan 23, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I wasn't sure where to post this.
> 
> I realised recently that I'd been on more demos, marches and written more letters/signed petitions in the last 2 years or so than in the previous two decades.  (I used to do a lot of activist stuff back in the reign of Thatcher.)
> 
> ...


I only moved to the U.K. in 2002 from Rural Ireland and our governments and our TD’s in Dáil Éireann were pretty bad, but today on balance, our present government and Taoiseach, in many ways, are even worse than those in the Thatcher years, as I still go home to Ireland frequently, at least once every 6 months, both summer and winter via Holyhead

 - the homeless problem in Dublin and many other Irish cities and towns today, is even worse than here in Manchester and has gradually become so over the past decade 

- it seems that only the far right or the hard left parties make any sense, as the mainstream parties in both Ireland and the U.K. are only career politicians, who do not care about ordinary people when push comes to shove, are only in politics for personal gain, have embraced such ideologies as globalism, pseudo-socialist, corporate-marxist, corporate-communism, corporate-leftism, etc, while being tied to an EU which is destructive and is tearing apart traditional family structures and society generally, regardless of the morality or ethics of this, for the politicians (on all sides) own personal advantage, which they regard as a good and “positive“ thing, regardless of reality


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2020)

Irish353.109 said:


> I only moved to the U.K. in 2002 from Rural Ireland and our governments and our TD’s in Dáil Éireann were pretty bad, but today on balance, our present government and Taoiseach, in many ways, are even worse than those in the Thatcher years, as I still go home to Ireland frequently, at least once every 6 months, both summer and winter via Holyhead
> 
> - the homeless problem in Dublin and many other Irish cities and towns today, is even worse than here in Manchester and has gradually become so over the past decade
> 
> - it seems that only the far right or the hard left parties make any sense, as the mainstream parties in both Ireland and the U.K. are only career politicians, who do not care about ordinary people when push comes to shove, are only in politics for personal gain, have embraced such ideologies as globalism, pseudo-socialist, corporate-marxist, corporate-communism, corporate-leftism, etc, while being tied to an EU which is destructive and is tearing apart traditional family structures and society generally, regardless of the morality or ethics of this, for the politicians (on all sides) own personal advantage, which they regard as a good and “positive“ thing, regardless of reality


er the likes of nick griffin and nigel farage are just as much career politicians as any mp, the late john tyndall - long-time leader of the bnp - was despite his signal lack of electoral success just the same. not sure how you're defining career politicians but you might like to revisit it.


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## Gramsci (Jan 23, 2020)

Irish353.109 said:


> I only moved to the U.K. in 2002 from Rural Ireland and our governments and our TD’s in Dáil Éireann were pretty bad, but today on balance, our present government and Taoiseach, in many ways, are even worse than those in the Thatcher years, as I still go home to Ireland frequently, at least once every 6 months, both summer and winter via Holyhead
> 
> - the homeless problem in Dublin and many other Irish cities and towns today, is even worse than here in Manchester and has gradually become so over the past decade
> 
> - it seems that only the far right or the hard left parties make any sense, as the mainstream parties in both Ireland and the U.K. are only career politicians, who do not care about ordinary people when push comes to shove, are only in politics for personal gain, have embraced such ideologies as globalism, pseudo-socialist, corporate-marxist, corporate-communism, corporate-leftism, etc, while being tied to an EU which is destructive and is tearing apart traditional family structures and society generally, regardless of the morality or ethics of this, for the politicians (on all sides) own personal advantage, which they regard as a good and “positive“ thing, regardless of reality



My Spanish partner finds this country leaving EU a "destructive" thing. She was working and living here happily and now at end of month her status changes for the worse.

I dont quite follow your argument about career politicians and EU.

This goes for all my friends and workmates from other EU countries.

Brexit nightmare has been a stressfull time for them. And they still dont feel that secure here with  a Boris led government. Given what he said during election about EU people treating this country as their own.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 23, 2020)

On combatting hopelessness.

Im regular blood donor. Was asked due to my blood type to be platelet donor. Which I did few weeks ago.

In this country donation is unpaid and voluntary. Unlike say USA.

Its a non commodified social gift.

When Im waiting to do a donation the feeling of "hopelessness" disappears. All the people there in waiting area are doing this for no monetary gain to help others.

Its one of the utopian practical parts of the NHS that they never have tried to give people some knd of monetary incentive to donate. Just trusting the ordinary peoples good will.

Imo a good example to combat hopelessness.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 25, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> On combatting hopelessness.
> 
> Im regular blood donor. Was asked due to my blood type to be platelet donor. Which I did few weeks ago.
> 
> ...


thats a good example. 

I find volunteering of all types fairly uplifting.  Volunteers tend to be fairly happy people - doing something they love or enjoy doing with no monetary reward.   It seems like the introduction of money into the equation just corrupts everything.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 15, 2020)

I wonder if this might be a candidate to order from Brixton library?








						Deaths of despair strike women too
					

When Angus Deaton and I began to document the dramatic increases in mortality from drug overdose, alcoholic liver disease and suicide—the deaths of despair that we describe in our new book—we found many things that surprised us.




					press.princeton.edu
				




I was at first attracted because one co-author was Angus Deaton. But it turns out this Angus Deaton is not the former TV presenter who had a coke-fueleld weekend in bed with Max Keiser's future wife. 

Rather he is a Scottish Cambridge educated Princeton professor who has specialised in exposing the link between American capitalism and poor mental health for the American working class.

What I can't quite understand is the emphasis in the publicity blurb in analysing the despair of white American graduates - but not Hispanics or blacks.
It's almost as if they are checking out people whose sense of entitlement has been thwarted, whereas of course Hispanics and blacks would not be expected to have a sense of entitlement to share in the American capitalist miracle.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 22, 2020)

I wondered what people though of this Peter Hitchens article








						PETER HITCHENS: Is shutting down Britain REALLY the right answer?
					

PETER HITCHENS: Here I am, asking bluntly - is the closedown of the country the right answer to the coronavirus? If we have this wrong we have a great deal to lose.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




I appreciate Peter Hitchens is probably anathema to many Urbanites, but I thought his article argued cogently against overshoot in the present medical panic.

I am interested to see that the financial measures being adopted by Rishi Sunak are very closely modelled on those going through the American Senate.
There is no way they would get past the EU Commission - which is sad, speaking as a committed European.

What Peter Hitchens says about civil liberties is important \I think. It's odd that in a society where rationing could be implement electronically very easily using existing technology, we are instead passing legislation allowing people to be picked up off the street for supposed medical reasons.

I think that in a few years time this situation will be remembered as a financial panic rather than a medical emergency.
But only time will tell.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Mar 22, 2020)

Hi CH1 

sorry I don't like reading anything from the Mail at the best of times. At present for the sake of my own mental health I refuse to. I'm limiting listening to news generally.  If he says anything that will generally combat hopelessness or give us some hope then please quote it.

I'm finding keeping hopelessness at bay rather difficult, especially now there are no pubs, clubs, meetings to go to or any of the usual distractions that cheer me up. Thankfully I'm still able to work, for now at least, and my girlf is being very supportive, otherwise I'd go bonkers.  More hope needed, please.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 22, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I don't like reading anything from the Mail at the best of times.



likewise

bluntly, if peter hitchens thinks it and the daily fail publishes it, it's a fairly safe assumption it's wrong.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 23, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> likewise
> 
> bluntly, if peter hitchens thinks it and the daily fail publishes it, it's a fairly safe assumption it's wrong.


anathema


----------



## CH1 (Mar 23, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> Hi CH1
> 
> sorry I don't like reading anything from the Mail at the best of times. At present for the sake of my own mental health I refuse to. I'm limiting listening to news generally.  If he says anything that will generally combat hopelessness or give us some hope then please quote it.
> 
> I'm finding keeping hopelessness at bay rather difficult, especially now there are no pubs, clubs, meetings to go to or any of the usual distractions that cheer me up. Thankfully I'm still able to work, for now at least, and my girlf is being very supportive, otherwise I'd go bonkers.  More hope needed, please.


He is simply saying that it might not turn out as catastrophically health-wise as people are currently extrapolating - and discusses various infection and recovery rates.
He also says we should be wary of ditching civil liberties for two years because of a health emergency.


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 23, 2020)

Feeling pretty down, almost hopeless for the past few days.
But yesterday, I managed to get out and started some long overdue garden work. 
I think being in actual, real sunshine helped my mood a lot.
Carefully isolating from the world, if not my housemates.


----------



## zahir (Mar 23, 2020)

CH1 said:


> I wondered what people though of this Peter Hitchens article
> 
> 
> 
> ...




A response to the Peter Hitchens article from Richard North:





__





						EU Referendum
					






					eureferendum.com


----------



## StoneRoad (Mar 23, 2020)

StoneRoad said:


> Feeling pretty down, almost hopeless for the past few days.
> But yesterday, I managed to get out and started some long overdue garden work.
> I think being in actual, real sunshine helped my mood a lot.
> Carefully isolating from the world, if not my housemates.


Just briefly - been out in the garden again to day ...
worked hard out there - and some other chores indoors - so feeling somewhat better even if the situation beyond my fence has not improved !


----------



## extra dry (Apr 2, 2020)

Let peter met his friends and stay with them for weeks on end in isolation with only back issues of the mail and tinned tuna


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> thats a good example.
> 
> I find volunteering of all types fairly uplifting.  Volunteers tend to be fairly happy people - doing something they love or enjoy doing with no monetary reward.   It seems like the introduction of money into the equation just corrupts everything.



It's one of the reasons I do so much on Cressingham. It keeps me stable and cheerful, it enables interaction with great people, and it helps me keep my promise to Ann, to fight on. We've talked about our Resident Management Co-op board getting an annual stipend. We put in a lot of hours, and it would be helpful to some, but I've already said that if we did so, mine would be donated to Save Cressingham Gardens as a matter of course, as long as I'm on the board. I don't ant or need paying, to help my community. 

BTW, sure I saw you on Effra Rd round the beginning of February, wearing a bright red hat. I tried to catch up to say hello, but didn't quite manage it!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 5, 2020)

extra dry said:


> Let peter met his friends and stay with them for weeks on end in isolation with only back issues of the mail and tinned tuna


Who is Peter?


----------



## yield (Apr 5, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> Who is Peter?


Peter Hichens and his anti-social Mail article above.

On topic I've been thinking about G.K. Chesterton lately and his (what I always thought was trite) quote.

“Hope means hoping when things are hopeless, or it is no virtue at all... As long as matters are really hopeful, hope is mere flattery or platitude; it is only when everything is hopeless that hope begins to be a strength.”


----------



## StoneRoad (Apr 5, 2020)

Have had a few bad days lately, dull weather didn't help much, and I was starting to fail to see any purpose in most of the things that I do.
The pandemic and the Darwin awards candidates who ignore the rules (although it may not be them personally who suffers) has really made me feel dreadful ...

However, I still have work for work  (a new project to start when we've finished the smaller of the two main projects) and a good team, even if it is currently reduced in numbers ... first reason.
second reason - I have my home and a large garden, and today the sun is shining, some of the seeds I planted less than a week ago have and daffillips, trees, shrubs etc are starting to grow ...
Third reason - I still have my family and friends and the internet / telephone for contacting them - and wonder of wonders, my little bro is replying ...

So, maybe things are not so bad, after all ...


----------



## CH1 (Apr 13, 2020)

To offset the relentless doom on TV news now I have started to intersperse it with The Ascent of Man - a really quite optimistic series by Jacob Broowski who muses on the nature of human progress, notwithstanding curious detours. I bought the box set ten years ago in a manic attack, before box sets were fashionable.

The third programme, largely about building monuments, from Gothic Cathedrals to Machu Picchu finishes on an extraordinary note - Bronowski muses about the Watts Towers in Los Angeles, built by an Italian immigrant  construction worker and tiler who just wanted to do it. Outsider art on the grandest scale.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 14, 2020)

Thanks CH1 that has cheered me up.


----------



## CH1 (May 6, 2020)

I note upthread some appreciation of Mark Fisher.
Accidentally dipped into a programme on Radio 3 tonight - apparently about encyclopedias Diderot to Wikipedia.
Guests included Jimmy Wales co-founder of Wikipedia, Andrew S Curran, author of "Diderot and the Art of Thinking Freely".
Importantly from the Mark Fisher point of view was Tariq Goddard of Repeater Books, who has published k-punk: The collected writings of Marl Fisher 2004-2017.

There was even a sound-bite from Mark Fisher himself: "You've probably all head this story one way or another: if you want to keep your job your going to have to work longer hours. The whingeing boss is one of the key forms of the management of this stage of capitalism." usw.
Free Thinking - Encylopedias and Knowledge: from Diderot to Wikipedia - BBC Sounds

Not sure I'm any the wiser - but it made a nice change from discussing lock-downs and the resignation of those who impose lockdowns and then cannot control their hormones!


----------



## Wilf (Jun 19, 2020)

I'm finding it really hard at the moment, a real mix of the personal and the political. I lost my Mum who was in a care home and so I couldn't see her in her last 2 months. My own health's not that grand. When you add in the way the tories have killed so many with their handling of the pandemic and the fact it will be them dishing out a new austerity to pay for it, I've been getting panic attacks and anxiety for the last 6 weeks. Mainly about my Mum, but the world feels really hopeless at the moment. But page 1 of this thread (as far as I've got so far) is a great antidote and a reminder if one was ever needed how great Greebo was. It's easy to say people had an influence after their death, but then here she is giving me some great advice to get back into the fight. Good on yer Greebo.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 3, 2020)

I'm really sorry for your loss Wilf.  Really sorry you couldn't see your mum at the end, that sounds extremely hard for both of you.   Greebo was such a wise and calming presence on these boards and it's heartwarming to hear she is still having a good influence now. 

I wish you fortitude to get through your grief. x


----------



## Wilf (Jul 3, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm really sorry for your loss Wilf.  Really sorry you couldn't see your mum at the end, that sounds extremely hard for both of you.   Greebo was such a wise and calming presence on these boards and it's heartwarming to hear she is still having a good influence now.
> 
> I wish you fortitude to get through your grief. x


Thanks.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 18, 2020)

Ask a Sane Person: Jia Tolentino on Practicing the Discipline of Hope
					

"I want the courage to need very little and demand a lot."




					www.interviewmagazine.com
				





> TOLENTINO: It has decreased my interest in improving institutions from the inside, and it has drastically altered my sense of the possible rate of change.


I'd never thought as hope as a discipline before, so this seems like a interesting way of looking at things.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 10, 2020)

Ok. Covid is giving us opportunity to think about how we can do things differently.  I'm feeling fairly positive that we can have a greener future and am writing up my plans for building a better world.  New manifesto to follow.

Feel free to post your own hopeful manifestos / plans / dreams.

As this is the *combatting hopelessness* thread *please* take any doom mongering, squabbling, pissing about and pedantry to other more appropriate threads. Thank you


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 10, 2020)

I've made a start on my own manifesto, I've written 2 pages so far. Not sure I'll publish the whole thing here as Urbs do tend to rip stuff to shreads and I'm not ready for that yet. This is the intro so far and the subject headings.


> *My Manifesto*
> 
> UK needs a new greener more self-sufficient and sustainable economy.
> 
> ...


----------



## oryx (Aug 10, 2020)

I've started thinking about how we need to innovate more as the only way to get round the coronavirus, which is with us for the foreseeable - along the lines of changing schooling and working hours, changing the workplace (working from home here to stay, more use of remote technology), encouraging people to shop online more but with better pay and conditions (and unionisation) for delivery and warehouse staff and re-nationalising the Royal Mail, massive outside areas for eating and drinking, moving to electrified vehicles.

Plus a much improved welfare system and a much flatter wage structure. 

And yes, what you say: 





> Stop the benchmarking of ‘growth’ and profit as the only measures of success – it’s unsustainable and someone somewhere is paying for those ‘profits’. Reframe our thinking - people are not just workers or units of consumption – we are human beings. We are using up the earths resources and robbing them from future generations and destroying our planet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 11, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've made a start on my own manifesto, I've written 2 pages so far. Not sure I'll publish the whole thing here as Urbs do tend to rip stuff to shreads and I'm not ready for that yet. This is the intro so far and the subject headings.


One thing I'd put in a manifesto would be reusing and repurposing material. Often recycling just the passive putting paper or plastic etc in a bin, but more active measures need to be taken. If you had this already in mind, pls ignore.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2020)

One of the things that I miss about being politically/socially naive is that I miss feeling like I'm a kind person.  Years ago I never would have considered having a party when a particular politician dies, or loses an election by a significant margin.  Now I would dance in the streets.  It makes me feel small and mean.


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## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 12, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've made a start on my own manifesto, I've written 2 pages so far. Not sure I'll publish the whole thing here as Urbs do tend to rip stuff to shreads and I'm not ready for that yet. This is the intro so far and the subject headings.



I'd read it if you posted it.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> One thing I'd put in a manifesto would be reusing and repurposing material. Often recycling just the passive putting paper or plastic etc in a bin, but more active measures need to be taken. If you had this already in mind, pls ignore.


I was thinking more about manufacturers and national legislation - not the action of the individual end users.   Companies should be forced to make and sell things with recycling in mind and be resposible for paying towards the cost of recyclying or ultimate disposal. Its only economic to make disposable things out of plastic if companies are not responsible for the costs of disposal. Lots of things could be recycled right now but are routinely just thrown away instead. In general ideas of reduce, reuse, recycle, needs to be adopted at every stage of production, distribution, use and disposal. Why is it cheaper to buy new rather than mend?  how is it possible to buy a dress for a few quid? because the people who make it are not paid properly and who is paying to put it landfill when its been worn only once or twice?  That was more the sort of thing I had in mind.

It's a common neoliberal trick to shift responsiblity from the rich large companies to the individual end users. eg Obesity has nothing to do with the many food corps spending millions filling shops with cheap sugary products, no, its just your own fault if you get fat etc. Its in the interest of capitalists to sell us shit and keep us unhappy then sell us something with the lure of possible happiness or invent a problem and sell us the solution.  

I'd like to shift the enphasis.

Edited to add: feel free to write your own manifesto


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 15, 2020)

I heard on the radio that the Welsh a new policy to protect future gerations - hurray!  Politicans have for too long enacted legisation and policies with no thought beyond their next election. I'd like all national govts to have truely long term plans.




__





						Caerphilly - Caerphilly County Borough
					

The place to find services and information provided by Caerphilly County Borough Council and its partners.




					www.caerphilly.gov.uk


----------



## stolinski (Aug 16, 2020)

I'm fairly cynical about things generally but i have to say the resistance to HS2 is cheering me up no end lately. There's a mainstream media blackout it seems, or maybe everyone just got bored of it / gave up after the Oakervee Report, yet every time they try to destroy an ancient oak for an access road which will then be disused again after the railway has been built (latest example), people are getting active and I think the project will last soooo long that even if it gets built, it will have bred another generation of hardened activists, which is just grand. And fair play to them, it's not easy nowadays, you can't just dole it up any more. I've got commitments which keep me where I am and it's annoying that most of the networking is now done via Facebook, but hey a new social movement is being born. Funnily enough some of my friends who were roads protestors back in the 1990s are now fully into HS2 for various convoluted reasons, but the more I read about it the more I am convinced that this is the issue to unite a lot of people together (unless BoJo bans the internet).


----------



## vanya (Aug 16, 2020)

Tighter dole regimes after the introduction of the JSA meant that being a full time activist was no longer an option, this coupled with the rocketing cost of being a student has taken away the two main ways of funding a life of activism.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 19, 2020)

vanya said:


> Tighter dole regimes after the introduction of the JSA meant that being a full time activist was no longer an option, this coupled with the rocketing cost of being a student has taken away the two main ways of funding a life of activism.



In the US, the Ronald Reagan pulled funding for student in California just so they wouldn't have the time/ability to protest.  I think part of breaking down the average person is also part of that.  If you're spending so much time and energy on just surviving, you won't be able to protest.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Aug 19, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> I was thinking more about manufacturers and national legislation - not the action of the individual end users.   Companies should be forced to make and sell things with recycling in mind and be resposible for paying towards the cost of recyclying or ultimate disposal. Its only economic to make disposable things out of plastic if companies are not responsible for the costs of disposal. Lots of things could be recycled right now but are routinely just thrown away instead. In general ideas of reduce, reuse, recycle, needs to be adopted at every stage of production, distribution, use and disposal. Why is it cheaper to buy new rather than mend?  how is it possible to buy a dress for a few quid? because the people who make it are not paid properly and who is paying to put it landfill when its been worn only once or twice?  That was more the sort of thing I had in mind.
> 
> It's a common neoliberal trick to shift responsiblity from the rich large companies to the individual end users. eg Obesity has nothing to do with the many food corps spending millions filling shops with cheap sugary products, no, its just your own fault if you get fat etc. Its in the interest of capitalists to sell us shit and keep us unhappy then sell us something with the lure of possible happiness or invent a problem and sell us the solution.
> 
> ...



May I humbly suggest adding a bit about requiring products to be repairable.  I've replaced products that were fixable if I could crack the case, but it required a special tool used only by the manufacturer.  Sometimes all that was required was replacing a battery, but I had to buy a whole new product rather than fixing one that I liked just fine.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 22, 2020)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> May I humbly suggest adding a bit about requiring products to be repairable.  I've replaced products that were fixable if I could crack the case, but it required a special tool used only by the manufacturer.  Sometimes all that was required was replacing a battery, but I had to buy a whole new product rather than fixing one that I liked just fine.



Didn't I just say that? 





> Why is it cheaper to buy new rather than mend?


This is my personal manifesto, mostly to get all my swirling thoughts out of my confused head and onto paper, so I can focus and be calmer. 

Why don't you write one too? I'll show you mine, if you show me yours


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 4, 2020)

young activists! the Advocacy Academy enables young people to be activists , teaches them the skills.  I saw their launch this week and found it inspiring, they are showing it again:



> TUESDAY 8TH SEPTEMBER 18:00 - 19:30PM
> Can't catch the livestream and feeling the FOMO? Don't worry! Join us for a watch-party the following week.
> Sign up for the watch-party.
> Redirect Notice
> Watch-party: The Advocacy Academy Class of 2021 Campaign Launch



Wish I'd been as aware or as articulate at 17. Wish there had been adults around willing to listen too, willing to help channel that youthful anger.  Took me years of trying all sorts of things and having no idea what I was doing.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Sep 17, 2020)

Well, I'm going to be out of emergency accomodation on Saturday by the look of it, which is when I move into my new place. It's a nice place too- I have my own kitchen with a washing machine, fridge and cooker and my own bathroom and toilet facilities, which is what I need as I have a stoma. So, this is kinds good news.

I say kinda because my rent is only getting topped up for six months, after which time the top up stops and I will somehow have to find an extra £111 per month to pay the landlord, and I don't fancy my chances of being able to cope with a job. Even if I had a job I think I'd struggle to pay off everything I needed to. The situation with my ex has progressed and we are friends, I can't see us ever being any more than that, which is fine.

So in a sense things are kind of looking up (atleast temporarily). However, I do actually feel very negative about things- the state that people (and society) are in and little hope or prospects for the future in this country and around the world. Things just seem like they are going to get worse and I can't help but blame people for it. I know the system has let them down and not provided them with much at all, including a decent education, but I find myself blaming people for the mess they are in. This applies to both working class and middle class people for me, neither being able to identify the right enemy and come up with the correct alternatives if you ask me. Where I am all most  people can do is blame all their problems and the problems in society on immigration etc and no doubt go down far-right rabbit holes. The common thing I hear is working class people swallowing all the right-wing tabloid bullshit and considering the far-right government we have as 'not tough enough' on refugees etc. Meanwhile middle class people also do this, or throw their lot in with the Labour Party and the dead end of electoralism and liberalism. I really see no end to all of this and can just see things deteriorating more and more. People seem to be closed off to new ideas and insist on repeating the same mistakes, relying on the same old capitalist system that has let them down and failed time and time again.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 19, 2020)

six months isn't very long. Something really needs to be done about affordable rents. Everyone deserves to have a permanent home.

We need not to blame each other but blame those govts, companies and bankers who have got us into the economic mess we are in, all those billionaires want poor people to pick up their tab.   I can't believe how voters fell for the blame the immigrant lie, it's so disappointing but this is the lie the media feeds to them.  Not sure how we can combat that - but glad to see numbers standing up for BLM and 'imigrants welcome here' marches.

I find some hope hope in the extintion rebellion movement. The fact that politicians are likening it to terrorism and newspapers are saying its stopping free speech shows they have hit some raw nerves. 

I don't think there is a single answer but lots of movements all against right wing neoliberal shit. We all need to put aside our differences and stand together against the divide and rule tactics.

I hope that now covid has shut so much down, it means we have some possiblity of it starting up differently. I'd hate the term 'new normal' to mean much the same as before but poorer and shittier.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 13, 2020)

interesting thoughts about hope in times of Covid here from   -








						Why resilience isn't always the answer to coping with challenging times
					

Hope may be a better option.




					theconversation.com
				





> *Turning to hope*
> 
> Hope is an alternative to resilience. Hope is the capacity to identify meaningful goals, the steps necessary to attain them and the motivation to take these steps. The difference between hope and resilience is that, where resilience is conceptualised as a return to a normal state of functioning following a stressful event or situation, hope is based on the idea of reaching a goal.
> 
> ...



and
_* 'Hope' isn't mere wishful thinking – it's a valuable tool we can put to work in a crisis * 








						'Hope' isn't mere wishful thinking – it's a valuable tool we can put to work in a crisis
					

Hope can energise, motivate and help us see through to a time when things will be better. To pull together in a crisis, we should put hope to work.




					theconversation.com
				



_


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 27, 2021)

found this article interesting:








						Hope is the antidote to helplessness. Here’s how to cultivate it | Psyche Ideas
					

If hopelessness is learned, then it can be unlearned: how groundbreaking studies paved the way to help cultivate hope




					psyche.co


----------



## panpete (Sep 27, 2021)

*"Circumstances, no matter how bad, do not have to defeat us."*

*Thank you friendofdorothy for posting this. I skipped to, and am currently reading the solution part of the article at the bottom, as my explanatory style was negative, now I am working on turning it the other, right, way.*


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 28, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> found this article interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That was a great article, interesting and thought-provoking. Thanks


----------



## panpete (Sep 28, 2021)

I love this bit from the article.
"Circumstances, no matter how bad, do not have to defeat us. You have the capacity to adopt more hopeful patterns of thinking in the face of adversity, and to adjust and pursue your goals, even amid hardship. If you can maintain hope in these ways, it will help you find the courage, strength and resilience to ride out the inevitable storms that life brings."


----------



## David Clapson (Sep 28, 2021)

I find that a most powerful way to combat hopelessness is to watch Talking Pictures TV. Seriously. Freeview channel 81.


----------



## 8ball (Sep 28, 2021)

panpete said:


> I love this bit from the article.
> "Circumstances, no matter how bad, do not have to defeat us. You have the capacity to adopt more hopeful patterns of thinking in the face of adversity, and to adjust and pursue your goals, even amid hardship. If you can maintain hope in these ways, it will help you find the courage, strength and resilience to ride out the inevitable storms that life brings."



I think my boss may have said something similar in my last appraisal.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Sep 29, 2021)

I’m sat in a 14 day quarantine in a west African country being fed survival rations three times a day.
Today I got out of bed and had a shave, that’s the level of my taking back control 

I’m going to wheedle more rations out of them and when the flu like symptoms and travel lumbar pain have died down I’m doing some stretches 

I’m a slothful creature at the best of times but this is a bit much even for me

Send hope and positive vibes


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Sep 29, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’m sat in a 14 day quarantine in a west African country being fed survival rations three times a day.
> Today I got out of bed and had a shave, that’s the level of my taking back control
> 
> I’m going to wheedle more rations out of them and when the flu like symptoms and travel lumbar pain have died down I’m doing some stretches
> ...


hope you're writing a book about your adventures sometime 

tell us about your favourite ration


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 29, 2021)

^^^ that 😍 was my version of hope & positive vibes. Sounds grim for you, have you got stuff other than internet to keep you occupied?


----------



## 8ball (Sep 30, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’m sat in a 14 day quarantine in a west African country being fed survival rations three times a day.
> Today I got out of bed and had a shave, that’s the level of my taking back control
> 
> I’m going to wheedle more rations out of them and when the flu like symptoms and travel lumbar pain have died down I’m doing some stretches
> ...



Vibes are in the post.  Lorry will be en route as soon as a driver and a few gallons of petrol are found…


----------



## Gin n tonic (Oct 1, 2021)

Over here... Homelessness is almost a career, not by way of people's choice, but governmental indifference. It is an actual visitor attraction almost and makes me pretty angry


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I find that a most powerful way to combat hopelessness is to watch Talking Pictures TV. Seriously. Freeview channel 81.


Can you explain why? What do you find hopeful about old films? 

Can't get that channel. I love many an old film myself but in a passive falling asleep sort of way. To many old films are war time / war themed / western / colonial non sense just make me angry with their jingoistic / racist propaganda. 

Can you recommend a few old films for combating hopelessness?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2021)

bellaozzydog said:


> I’m sat in a 14 day quarantine in a west African country being fed survival rations three times a day.
> Today I got out of bed and had a shave, that’s the level of my taking back control
> 
> I’m going to wheedle more rations out of them and when the flu like symptoms and travel lumbar pain have died down I’m doing some stretches
> ...


Yikes. Wishing you survival and good vibes.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2021)

Gin n tonic said:


> Over here... Homelessness is almost a career, not by way of people's choice, but governmental indifference. It is an actual visitor attraction almost and makes me pretty angry


Certainly successive govts since Thatcher have just ignored it or increase the problem. Homelessness charities have become an industry. Makes me so angry too.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2021)

There's a lot in that article. It made me think about my own resilience and my own thinking style = brittle / depressive / pessimistic. I used to think it was the culture I was brought up in northern miserablism, grim up north, things can always get worse . I've been very consciously trying to change this but it is not easy the thinking pattern s of a lifetime. 

There is also talk about 'agency' or lack of it. There is so much that is wrong in the world that is just completely beyond my control. I still reduce, reuse, recycle stuff but know I have no control  over the enormous mountains of waste clogging our oceans / landfill. I do my best to be mindful of my carbon footprint - but as a city dweller in a rich country there is so little I can do as a single individual. Neoliberal govt have made what needs to be a nationwide collective issue a matter of personal choice.

I think we need more collective activism, more solidarity. I don't feel I can have an agency to change things on a national / global level.  But I hope I can contribute to my local community or local campaigns.  Well that's what I'm trying to keep in mind to stay just a little bit hopeful.


----------



## A380 (Oct 1, 2021)

Miss-Shelf said:


> hope you're writing a book about your adventures sometime
> 
> tell us about your favourite ration


Have you got a ball you can throw against the wall for hours at a time?  ETA Sorry Meant to quote bellaozzydog


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2021)

Gin n tonic said:


> Over here... Homelessness is almost a career, not by way of people's choice, but governmental indifference. It is an actual visitor attraction almost and makes me pretty angry


Have you heard about CLTs community land trusts? it's a growing form of community housing. I've joined a LGBT CLT not so much so that they might house me personally, but they are such an optimistic group of mostly young people I've enjoyed hanging out with them.

Meant to ask where is 'over here'?


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## David Clapson (Oct 1, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Can you explain why? What do you find hopeful about old films?
> 
> Can't get that channel. I love many an old film myself but in a passive falling asleep sort of way. To many old films are war time / war themed / western / colonial non sense just make me angry with their jingoistic / racist propaganda.
> 
> Can you recommend a few old films for combating hopelessness?


I'm not sure...maybe they're so unlike contemporary life that they take me out of myself, to a quieter, less stressful existence. It's not a particular film. Just a general coziness. As you say, some of them are dreadful, the jingoism, chauvinism, every kind of ism. But watching them is still like switching off the real world.  I wouldn't call it hope, but it's an absence of despair.


----------



## Gin n tonic (Oct 1, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Have you heard about CLTs community land trusts? it's a growing form of community housing. I've joined a LGBT CLT not so much so that they might house me personally, but they are such an optimistic group of mostly young people I've enjoyed hanging out with them.
> 
> Meant to ask where is 'over here'?



I've not heard of that. I live in wonderful Missouri x


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## CH1 (Oct 2, 2021)

David Clapson friendofdorothy
Just to chip in on nostalgia/escapist films channels

1. Rather than Talking Pictures TV I have felt more egaged with Channel 51 when it was showing "Classic" movies over and over again. Unfortunately it is off-air now until January, as it is showing Christmas moves until then!!!

Lately Great Movies Classic had been showing endless repeats of IF.... a 1969 film about public school prefect abuse and staff incompetence ending with the Headmaster shot dead after a speech day riot. Passionate and surreal.
Chimed completely with my own time at a minor public school in Suffolk. Public school bullying and weird staff transformed into heroic fantasy.

2. On Wednesday I was trying to follow the David Clapson advice re Talking Pictures TV, but frankly the re-re-hash of Frankenstein  (Frankenstein and the Monster from Hell) was just beyond the pale.
So I turned over to BBC2 and watched this film

Not my normal cup of tea. I don't like American films generally, don't like evangelicals either.
But this film actualy made me think a lot.
I grew up gay in an unaccepting family environment - but my Dad was a lorry driver, who had served in the navy in the Far East as a late teen. My Mum was a very religious infant school teacher.
So my family reaction to discussing being gay was "we don't want to talk about it"
Well at least my Dad wasn't a Baptist preacher in the buckle of the Bible Belt with a subservient wife.
I'm not sure my Mum ever really came to rterms with my secxuality - she died at 61 - but one of her last gifts to me was a CD set of Benjamin Briten's War Requiem. Was it because Britten was gay and she was tentatively saying it was OK?
My Dad sort of adoped a "Don't ask don't tell" position. I recall when he was very old - about 77 - I bought a DVD of the New York City Ballet which I put on the DVD player in his house.
"Take that off - it's a male man!" he said.

Even so it's not quite packing me off to Gay Conversion Therapy at 18, is it?
The scenes in the film of praying over and the therapeutic "scenes" were ghastly.
In my mid thirties I was persuaded to have Gestalt Therapy (for depression etc).
What a load of bollocks. This idea of proking anger and getting out the red baseball bat to hit piles of cushions.
£30 cash in hand was the price for this voodoo therapy. I hope the therapist got a visitation from the Inland Revenue!

Anyway BBC2 have energised me this week - this film touched me to the core.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> I'm not sure...maybe they're so unlike contemporary life that they take me out of myself, to a quieter, less stressful existence. It's not a particular film. Just a general coziness. As you say, some of them are dreadful, the jingoism, chauvinism, every kind of ism. But watching them is still like switching off the real world.  I wouldn't call it hope, but it's an absence of despair.


Hello David Clapson an abscence of despair is my general aspiration these days. I've not watched any news/polital debate since march 2020 to avoid a daily despair and rising blood pressure. I find distraction is helpful for my mental wellbeing, but its not the same as combatting hopelessness.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2021)

CH1 said:


> David Clapson friendofdorothy
> Just to chip in on nostalgia/escapist films channels
> 
> 1. Rather than Talking Pictures TV I have felt more egaged with Channel 51 when it was showing "Classic" movies over and over again. Unfortunately it is off-air now until January, as it is showing Christmas moves until then!!!
> ...


Thanks for that.  Did you ever see Oranges are not the only fruit? - similar evangelicalical themes - only involving lesbians and set in Accrington. They didn't call it conversion therapy at the time, they called it exorcism, but it was the same idea. It was a tv series in 1985 from an autobiographical novel by Janette Winterson. Grim, but funny. The main character finds escape by being good at school and going to University.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Hello David Clapson an abscence of despair is my general aspiration these days. I've not watched any news/polital debate since march 2020 to avoid a daily despair and rising blood pressure. I find distraction is helpful for my mental wellbeing, but its not the same as combatting hopelessness.



Distraction all the way! I used to get it from sitting in the front row at an empty cinema (the Ritzy) in the afternoon. But I gave up on the Ritzy. Now I get distraction from my lovely cat, plus fiddling with my amazing new bike, and the fabulous Talking Pictures TV. I don't need to watch it, just having it in the background is fantastic. Maybe you could get something similar from a radio station? I think there are ways to get all sorts of extra stations on the  internet....maybe something from a different part of the world? 

I also get a mood boost from coffee, now that I have an Illy capsule machine. It's been an amazing life enhancer. It's nothing like a Nespresso one, it tastes very nearly as good as may favourite London cafes. It really is that good. Trouble is, I'm on about 9 nine shots per day. Y3.3 Espresso Capsule Machine - Coffee Machine - illy


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2021)

I'm mostly combatting my own hopelessness by staying connected with people and doing as much local community stuff as I can.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 4, 2021)

David Clapson said:


> Distraction all the way! I used to get it from sitting in the front row at an empty cinema (the Ritzy) in the afternoon. But I gave up on the Ritzy. Now I get distraction from my lovely cat, plus fiddling with my amazing new bike, and the fabulous Talking Pictures TV. I don't need to watch it, just having it in the background is fantastic. Maybe you could get something similar from a radio station? I think there are ways to get all sorts of extra stations on the  internet....maybe something from a different part of the world?
> 
> I also get a mood boost from coffee, now that I have an Illy capsule machine. It's been an amazing life enhancer. It's nothing like a Nespresso one, it tastes very nearly as good as may favourite London cafes. It really is that good. Trouble is, I'm on about 9 nine shots per day. Y3.3 Espresso Capsule Machine - Coffee Machine - illy


are you on commission? or just really hyped up on caffeine?   It may help your mood, and I'm glad it works for you. 

Have you read my opening posts - I was talking about a political hopelessness (and fuck what a worse political mess we are in now!) - this is why I started this discussion:



> I need ideas on how to face the struggle against the Torys and avoid depression and burnout.



Generally I don't think buying consumer goods and developing an addiction is the best way to combat hopelessness - this is what big businesses and Conservatives want us to do -  No amount of coffee (or gin) will help me deal with global warming, waste, brexit, war, poverty, plague or this shit shower of useless Torys.

 unhappy with your life? this product will transform your life and make you happy! = is a lie.


----------



## David Clapson (Oct 4, 2021)

I'm not saying so-called natural mood boosters are much of an answer. Chilis, chocolate and caffeine have a very brief effect and bring their own problems. But at least they're not as harmful as opioids or strong weed.  To get back to your original point, I despair so much about this country, and the values of some people who used to be close friends, that I've made plans to leave, in a camper van, taking my cat and bicycle and motor bike. I desperately want to get back to some Nordic values...I fell in love with Norway on a cycling trip some years ago. I'm going to try to be away travelling for 9 months of the year. I'll go wherever the weather is warm - not too hot, not too cold - and hope to escape the extremes of climate change. I'm not rich, so it's all very, very ambitious. It may or may not work.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 4, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Can't get that channel. I love many an old film myself but in a passive falling asleep sort of way. To many old films are war time / war themed / western / colonial non sense just make me angry with their jingoistic / racist propaganda.



may be worth a re-tune - it does exist in south london (i'm at mum-tat's in sunny SE London at the moment) and it's on freeview here, assume it's from one of the transmitters up in the mountains round norwood / anerley

some of the stuff on there's a load of old crud, and some of it stuff that would appeal to people who think life was so much better when 'everyone' was white and straight with 'traditional family values' but there's occasionally something worth watching.



friendofdorothy said:


> unhappy with your life? this product will transform your life and make you happy! = is a lie.



as in


----------



## yield (Oct 6, 2021)

When hope is a hindrance
For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act



> Caught between fear and ‘feverish hope’, the inmates in the (Warsaw) ghetto were paralysed. The truth of ‘resettlement’ and the world’s silence led to a kind of fatalism. Only when they gave up hope and let go of fear, Arendt argues, did they realise that ‘armed resistance was the only moral and political way out’.





> For Arendt, the emergence of totalitarianism in the middle of the 20th century meant that one could no longer count on common sense or human decency, moral norms or ethical imperatives. The law mandated mass murder and could not be looked to for guidance on how to act. The tradition of Western political thought broke, and Plato’s axiom – that it is better to suffer harm than to do harm – was reversed.





> The most basic human experiences, such as love, loss, desire, fear, hope and loneliness, were instrumentalised by fascist propaganda to sway the masses. But Arendt could not be swayed. And in the darkest hour of her life, as she contemplated suicide in an internment camp, she decided she loved life too much to give it up. She did not hope for rescue or redemption. She understood herself to be caught in between the ‘no-longer’ and the ‘not-yet’, in between past and future.





> Before Arendt was forced to abandon her academic career and flee Nazi Germany in 1933, she published her dissertation on Love and Saint Augustine. Written before the war at the University of Heidelberg under the direction of the existential philosopher and psychologist Karl Jaspers, Arendt offers a secular reading of Augustine’s conceptions of love. In Augustine’s concept of caritas, or neighbourly love, Arendt found a way of being toward the world and the root of political action and human freedom where love of the world has the power to create new beginnings.





> Arendt’s secular reading of Augustine reconciles his understanding of a Christian hope for life after death with her own understanding of worldliness. Whereas Augustine sought immortality in the afterlife, Arendt argues that there is only immortality in a person’s political actions on this earth. All that remains after we die are the stories others will tell about what we have done


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


exactly so,


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2021)

yield said:


> When hope is a hindrance
> For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act


yes its no good just hoping that something will happen. We've got to do something to make it happen.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2021)

I like this podcast series BBC Sounds - The Power of Negative Thinking - Available Episodes   especially episode 2: Abandon Hope -  a dour scotsman talks about negative thinking leading to positive action: -



> Jim Trodden has recently retired, after decades as a safety supervisor on North Sea oil rigs.  In this harshest of workplace environments, merely hoping for good outcomes, or remaining positive, was inherently to invite disaster. Instead, Jim describes his dominant offshore mindset as one of ‘chronic unease’. Constantly and vividly envisaging the worst possible outcome of every scenario was a key tool in helping to prevent disaster and - potentially - saving thousands of lives.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> found this article interesting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thinking further from this I supposed 'learned hoplessness' is where the govt want to keep us so we are not too much trouble.


----------



## chainsawjob (Oct 7, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> as in


There used to be a squatted building in Southampton that had 'Happiness is just around the corner' painted on it, and the writing literally went around a 120 degree angle ('Happiness...'  on one wall, then 'is just around the corner' round the corner), where the building was shaped to fit a bend in the road. Loved that building and it's message, and I always wished I'd taken a photo of it.


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## CH1 (Oct 12, 2021)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks for that.  Did you ever see Oranges are not the only fruit? - similar evangelicalical themes - only involving lesbians and set in Accrington. They didn't call it conversion therapy at the time, they called it exorcism, but it was the same idea. It was a tv series in 1985 from an autobiographical novel by Janette Winterson. Grim, but funny. The main character finds escape by being good at school and going to University.


Meant to respond to this earlier.
Yes I watched Oranges are niot the Only Fruit - when it came out and subsequently on  repeat.
I feel that the difference between Oranges and the Boy Erased film was the sheer lack of humour in  Boy Erased.

Boy was caught up in an American evangelical cult affecting millions of people.
Also Boy was not adopted - so in a way the parental betrayal was greater I felt. Having befriended a fellow inmate in the re-education centre, they jointly resist the re-programming and the Boy eventually persuades his moither that he has the right to be gay - which splits up his parents marriage. A whole bundle of laughs - not.

I think Oranges are not the only Fruit is partly autobiographical - but it is artfully constructed almost like Dickens if you ask me.
The Christian family household  in Accrington are given to brass band sorties in town on market days - parodying the Salvation Army.
From what I remember these church people are portrayed as malevolent or oppressive in a bumbling way.
Actually the scene I remember particulary is when the hero of the story - having broken free - goes back to see the family who adopted her, but were incapable of loving her and bringing her up. What does she find as progress - the adopted mother has started a Christian CB network and is sat there calling up holy contacts on the CB.
(this dates it doesn't it?)

To me Oranges are not the only Fruit is much warmer emotionally - because it is a fable, or almost a pantomime show leaving you feeling warm inside.
Boy Erased made me glad it wasn't me going through that experience - but if that was an up-beat ending I'd better get myself onto Prozac!


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 13, 2021)

yield said:


> When hope is a hindrance
> For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act


A very interesting article. Thankyou for sharing it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


life, liberty and _the pursuit_ of happiness


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 13, 2021)

CH1 said:


> Meant to respond to this earlier.
> Yes I watched Oranges are niot the Only Fruit - when it came out and subsequently on  repeat.
> I feel that the difference between Oranges and the Boy Erased film was the sheer lack of humour in  Boy Erased.
> 
> ...


A good friend of mine is from Accy, and Janette Winterson was her first girlfriend. When Oranges a n t o f was on the TV we had to avoid mentioning it. Apparently the story is fairly true to life. JW was a good author. I suppose she could turn things around because she escaped, the church, the family and the town. In 1980s it was a grim hopeless place.

 I used to hang out with a group of friends from Accy -apparently one of them, who was also from a religious family, became an international gay porn star. Escape from that town seems to allow interesting transformations.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 13, 2021)

yield said:


> When hope is a hindrance
> For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act


However, I don't appear to have known enough about Arendt and found 'information' about her vague and mysterious. A comrade of mine seems to know much more about her than I do and had this to say about her work:

"I read "The Origins of Totalitarianism" at university and was not pleased. Typically American in its idealism. I believe she had very little concept of materialism, the real world explanation of historical events. The idea that the mass murder of the Jews was incidental, that the Nazis' purpose was a generalised terror is a ridiculous conclusion, particularly when she had previously outlined the origins of "scientific racism" (like a typical academic by studying "thinkers" and philosophy). 

I later read "On Revolution" and felt sickened by its positive view of the American Revolution and bewildered by its stupid jargon. 

She was a dyed in the wool bourgeois democrat. In the mid-twentieth century a lot of people were looking to actually existing democracy as an alternative to totalitarianism. Her "action" was doubtless some form of constitutional change.

Not a fan. At all."


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## brixtonscot (Nov 5, 2021)

Maybe of interest to this thread....
Video discussion on book launch of Futilitarianism : Neoliberalism and the Production of Uselessness by Neil Vallelly.

Neil Vallelly offers a rich tour of what he calls the futilitarian condition brought about by neoliberalization. 
Systemic and ubiquitous, this condition deprives us of meaningful lives and robs the world of a future.
With an elegant pen, reader-friendly philosophical thoughtfulness, and scores of examples, Vallelly explains that gnawing feeling: "isn't what I'm doing--in my job, ecological practices, ethical consumerism and more--really futile?" 
Becoming-common, he argues, is our only way out - Wendy Brown , University of California

( the audio & visual is out of sync )


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 7, 2021)

Was recommended this book
Radical Happiness
Moments of Collective Joy
by Lynne Segal


> A passionate call to rediscover the political and emotional joy that emerges when we share our lives
> In an era of increasing individualism, we have never been more isolated and dispirited. A paradox confronts us. While research and technology find new ways to measure contentment and popular culture encourages us to think of happiness as a human right, misery is abundant.
> Segal believes we have lost the art of “radical happiness”—the liberation that comes with transformative, collective joy. She argues that instead of obsessing about our own well-being we should seek fulfilment in the lives of others. Examining her own experience in the women’s movement, Segal looks at the relationship between love and sex, and the scope for utopian thinking as a means to a better future. She also shows how the gaps in care that come from the diminishing role of the welfare state must be replaced by alternative ways of living together and looking after one another.
> In this brilliant and provocative book, Segal proposes that the power of true happiness can only be discovered collectively.
> ...


I like the sound of the politics of hope


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 8, 2021)

brixtonscot said:


> Maybe of interest to this thread....
> Video discussion on book launch of Futilitarianism : Neoliberalism and the Production of Uselessness by Neil Vallelly.
> 
> Neil Vallelly offers a rich tour of what he calls the futilitarian condition brought about by neoliberalization.
> ...



that was really interesting - boils down to capitalism / consumerism is utterly futile. There's a lot of ideas packed in there, will have to listen again to take more in. I liked what Lynne Segal said.  

Author Neil spent a lot of time thanking every single person he knew (which was annoying to me, but maybe being grateful to every single person in your community helps strengthen that community?)


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## CH1 (Nov 8, 2021)

I'm sort of responding to the posts on Futilitarianism.
I question whether to understand human dissatisfaction and/or misery we need to create a new label.

I think disillusion and despair is a well trodden path in the ethical religions.
I'm no Buddhist theologian, but a reading of the charming little book "Siddharta"  by Herman Hesse gives the essence.
Here was a man, princely born, who grew bored with his luxury life as a prince in the palace and gave it up to try "real life" in the outside world.
After a number of different career ;paths Siddharta hit a very low point - basically finding that everything he tried was indeed futile.
At which point he seems t have had an Isaac Newton moment whereby sitting under a tree he suddenly became aware of his meaning of life - the need for compassion.

The Christian story is sort of similar, but more manic.

Seems to me that the reason these myths have generated millions of followers over the years us that people are moved by this human feeling of compassion.
Obviously once the founders disappear in all religions you get warring factions often motivated by politics.

To me Futilitarianism is not really factional - it is a further refinement of understanding from a left perspective.
It may well be useful for courses at Goldsmiths and Kings College London - but it doesn't TOUCH me.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 8, 2021)

CH1 said:


> I'm sort of responding to the posts on Futilitarianism.
> I question whether to understand human dissatisfaction and/or misery we need to create a new label.
> 
> I think disillusion and despair is a well trodden path in the ethical religions.
> ...


Compassion isn't a word that I have heard anyone use in a long time. Thanks CH1 - lets use it more.


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## CH1 (Jan 4, 2022)

This cheered me up hugely over Christmas


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 19, 2022)

yield said:


> When hope is a hindrance
> For Hannah Arendt, hope is a dangerous barrier to courageous action. In dark times, the miracle that saves the world is to act


just musing on this. Hope v hopelessness  and  action v apathy. 
Still keen to explore strategies for avoiding the inaction of depression, its so hard to know what 'courageous action' I can actually do.

I'd love to hear what urbs are you doing in these dark times to act?


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 19, 2022)

All I can think of atm in acting to combat hopelessness,  is to be involved in various grass roots community projects - all things that bring people together to support each other. 

A couple of things have cheered me of late - 

one is a lgbt housing organisation I'm involved with, someone talked about the need for consciousness raising amongst ourselves (first time I've heard the concept of CR raised in years)
the other is, the development of a local community centre project being lead by older people with as volunteers to develop a centre for services for themselves and the wider community.


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## brixtonscot (Mar 17, 2022)

" It is no measure of mental health , to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society "
Krishnamurti 

I agree with above quote and that we are , in general , living in profoundly sick societies , particularly in modern so called "developed" countries ,  ie. imperialist white supremacist patriarchal capitalism (* see attached quote from bell hooks ) - which were built on the profits of slavery and colonial and working class exploitation.
Also ecological destruction , extreme wealth inequality , food banks , homelessness , addictions , pandemic , hyper-online culture , ( nuclear?)wars , prejudices and inequalities based on class , gender , ethnicity , sexuality 

There are two perspectives , at least , that can be taken on this.

Conform and assimilate to "fit in" to such sick societies 
Or
Challenge the foundations of these societies , individually and/or collectively - and the possible hope of transformation to something better.

As well as differing degrees of generalised traumas which can be experienced surviving in such societies , on the level of individuals , many can also experience differing degrees of trauma in our formative years.
This can be obvious, like abuse ( physical , emotional , sexual )  or more subtle and less obvious adverse experiences , that may not have conscious memories.

Parents can have best intentions , but still cause unintended distress to children , perhaps in attempting to get them to conform socially.

As (in)famous poem by Philip Larkin puts it -

" They fuck you up, your mum and dad.   
They may not mean to, but they do.   
They fill you with the faults they had
And add some extra, just for you.
But they were fucked up in their turn " 

Can these complex developmental traumas and adverse experiences of varying degrees have long lasting effects into adulthood ? 

If we could be "imprinted" neurologically in our formative years , could it be possible to attempt to understand the intersections of the personal , neurological , psychological , biological , social and political contributory influences in adult life , individually and collectively and wider social and political implications ?

Short animated video here on Trauma & Nervous System


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 17, 2022)

Not involved in DAN, but this is uplifting 





__





						DAN REUNION Action Notice
					






					docs.google.com


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## Yuwipi Woman (Mar 17, 2022)

brixtonscot said:


> " It is no measure of mental health , to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society "
> Krishnamurti
> 
> I agree with above quote and that we are , in general , living in profoundly sick societies , particularly in modern so called "developed" countries ,  ie. imperialist white supremacist patriarchal capitalism (* see attached quote from bell hooks ) - which were built on the profits of slavery and colonial and working class exploitation.
> ...



I see a third and fourth option, which involve adapting without assimilation:

*  conform enough to get along, but cope by trying to make things better on an individual basis.  Creating and supporting  foodbanks are an adaptation that mitigates the effects of a sick society.

*  drop out completely, like Ted Kaczynski - Wikipedia, with or without blowing people up--one hopes without, since its a particularly sick adaptation to a sick society.


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## CH1 (Apr 1, 2022)

Apologies if this has already been posted - or if people have heard it before (it seems to be popular in the Mindfulness community right now)
I first heard this at Brighton Unitarian Church about 25 years ago, where it formed the basis of the sermon by the late Rev Steve Dick, an American minister who made his life career in the British Unitarian Church.   

Autobiography in Five Short Chapters - Portia Nelson

*Chapter I*
I walk down the street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I fall in.
I am lost ... I am helpless.
It isn't my fault.
It takes me forever to find a way out.

*Chapter II*
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I pretend I don't see it.
I fall in again.
I can't believe I am in the same place.
But it isn't my fault.
It still takes a long time to get out.

*Chapter III*
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I see it is there.
I still fall in ... it's a habit.
My eyes are open.
I know where I am.
It is _my_ fault.
I get out immediately.

*Chapter IV*
I walk down the same street.
There is a deep hole in the sidewalk.
I walk around it.

*Chapter V*
I walk down another street.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 1, 2022)

Thank you CH1 I've never seen it before.  Following that imagery I wondering what street to walk down to avoid those holes.


----------



## BigMoaner (Apr 2, 2022)

eidted just realised this thread is abotu Tory austerity, teh cunts


----------



## CH1 (Apr 2, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thank you CH1 I've never seen it before.  Following that imagery I wondering what street to walk down to avoid those holes.


I feel in retropsect that I have repeatedly made mistakes in life, and always really by following "gut instinct".
On the other hand some creative changes have also happened that way for me.

I found the text whilst doing a "clear out" of papers on the lving room floor. Serendipity?


----------



## campanula (Apr 2, 2022)

My daughter and I are fundraising 10K to start a 'maternity wear for refugees' charity. She is (enormously) pregs and evangelistic about having a few nice, comfy clothes. Not any old things either because pregnancy is such an odd shape, but good quality, supportive clothing. We figure a small team of volunteers, premises and a website should do it. She already works for Social Workers Without Borders so has a lot of contacts.


----------



## CH1 (Apr 13, 2022)

This video randomly came up on my new Smart TV this morning and spoke to my "Lived Experience"
The lecturer make reference to DBT - Dielectical Behavioural Therapy.

I looked this up on the SLAM/Maudsley website. Apparently they do this at the Maudsley satellite private clinic in Abu Dhabi - but not here in London on the NHS.

I actually don't feel too bad at present - but this lecturer made me want to emigrate to Ireland for treatment!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 8, 2022)

I found this interesting:








						Finding Hope in Hard Times
					

Acknowledging hopelessness can unlock the hope within.




					www.psychologytoday.com


----------



## CH1 (Jul 8, 2022)

friendofdorothy  good reboot above.​Made my mind turns now to one of my heroes - Dorothy Rowe, the Doyen of Depression (in my view).
I see from her website (Welcome To The Website Of...) that she has in fact died - of a disease I have suffered from all my life. Good news about that is that Dorothy Rowe died at 89!

I once attended a lecture by her at Conway Hall, where she revealed she had threatened to sue the BBC when they edited her contribution to one of their Ethics programmes to imply she thought religion was a great comfort. Turns out Dorothy was not a great fan of religion and didn't want her message hijacked by the God Squad! 
​The Purpose of Paranoia (February 2005)​*Dorothy Rowe*
Last November I was speaker at the Anarchist Book Fair in London. Three nights before I had been speaking at the Royal Society for the Arts. These were two very different audiences, but with both, as ever, there was a queue of people wanting to speak to me after my talk. Some of these people simply wanted to tell me that they had found my books helpful which, as you can imagine, is enormously heartening, but there were also several people who wanted to ask me something quite personal about themselves. This is always difficult for me as we are never in a private situation. The person usually introduces the subject haltingly, often in a way which takes me a while to understand. It slowly dawns on me that I am being asked something huge, something which, if I were presented with it in the privacy of my study, would cause me to pause, consider, and answer slowly and carefully. Yet here I am presented with one of life's greatest problems in a totally personal form and in a public space. I stumble through some kind of answer, and afterwards ponder, worry, and work out what I ought to have said.
The people in the RSA queue who asked me difficult questions talked about the kinds of trauma which I have encountered, either personally or through my clients, and so I was able to make some reasonably sensible suggestions about what might be done, but a man at the Anarchist Book Fair asked me something which at first seemed to be right outside my experience and expertise.
English was not his first language, and I had to concentrate hard to understand what he was saying. He was asking me about a friend. Often, when a questioner asks me about a friend I suspect that the person is actually asking about himself, but here the man's friend was a woman. Like him she was a refugee from Saddam's Iraq. She had been given refugee status, so I assumed that terrible things had happened to her. He spoke of her intense suffering as a refugee and of her passionate concern about her country, and then of her success in completing a university degree after coming to England. What troubled him was that at the point in her life when she was at last free from political persecution, when she had right of residence in a safe, stable country, and she had achieved academic success she began to slip into a state of paranoia. She had always discussed political matters with her friends in a very intelligent and knowledgeable way, but now she brought to such discussions her conviction that she was under constant CIA supervision and her every deed and thought was being recorded by them.
I know about paranoia but I don't know directly about living in a police state and about being tortured. I spoke to him about the Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture and about those psychiatrists and psychologists who have specialised in working with refugees, but I knew that paranoid people are likely to see such professionals as agents of the persecuting power. The man's mention of the CIA aroused the interest of those waiting to speak to me and they pressed closer to listen. We decided to end our conversation, but not before I said something about how paranoia was a defence which we can use to hold ourselves together when we feel ourselves falling apart. A young woman who had been listening to our conversation now asked me to explain what I meant by this.
I tried to explain briefly that whenever we discover that something which had given meaning, purpose and structure to our life has suddenly disappeared we feel our very sense of being a person shattering, crumbling, even disappearing. It is utterly terrifying. This can happen when a person loses the job on which he had built his identity, or lost the family which defined his life's purpose. It is common for people in such situations to blame themselves for the disaster that has befallen them, and thus become depressed. However, when a person has grown up in a situation where his family are the victims of political persecution, where his every action and thought have to take into account the constant danger he is in, then his ideas about persecution and the defences against persecution can become central to his understanding of himself. If he escapes from this persecution to a place of safety but loses family and friends along the way he can find himself falling apart in a world where he feels himself to be completely alone. To hold himself together he can reconstitute the ideas of persecution and defence in a way which is part fantasy, part reality. These ideas will give a structure and purpose to his life and will also assure him that he is not entirely alone. The great benefit of paranoia is that someone, somewhere is thinking of you.
I don't know whether any of this applies to the woman from Iraq. I could know that only by talking to her. But I have met many paranoid people and have seen how these people actually valued their paranoia. They might not be happy but they are sure that their life has significance.
When the crowd around me had dispersed I moved to another part of the room to record an interview for an anarchist internet radio station (number of listeners: 10). As I waited for the recording equipment to be set up the man from Iraq approached me and asked how best he could help his friend. 'Just continue to do what you're doing,' I replied. 'Be her friend. Don't tell her her ideas are wrong but help her keep them in some kind of proportion so that she doesn't get too frightened.' Afterwards I thought, 'That's really the answer for all our problems. Make sure that you've got a good friend!'
Dorothy Rowe _Beyond Fear_ second edition, HarperCollins​


----------



## Cado (Jul 13, 2022)

Council Houses everywhere!!

Just build them.


----------



## CH1 (Jul 29, 2022)

Rather liked this Youtube "sermon" about finding meaning in life.

click "watch on Youtube"


----------



## brixtonscot (Sep 23, 2022)

Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book - 
“The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture." 
 "The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."


----------



## CH1 (Sep 23, 2022)

brixtonscot said:


> Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book -
> “The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture."
> "The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."



I'm a bit foxed by this one. Summary seems to be that sometimes some people have transformative experiences which greatly improve their morale and give them a positive view of life - in which case even physical illnesses become easier to bear and can even resolve themselves.

Can't disagree with that, but what fascinates me is Dr Maté's "look". I have never thought I was a picture - but his extremely wizened features (in old age) make one realise there is still some way to go! Terrible thing to say I know.

I think his thesis that trauma can be produced by adverse social settings is obviously true - in my own case I have taken the rest of my life to recover from bullying by fellow pupils at my minor Headmasters Conference boarding school. Something which other people assume must have been a privilege to attend. Someone gave me this book 

Nothing new in a way - its been covered dramatically in "Lord of the Flies" and the Lindsay Anderson film "If...."
A much more positive view is in this amazing 1974 BBC film for "Play for the Day" (apologies if I've upped it before). Here you get the maturing schoolboy - whose father is himself an outsider - exploring himself through music and religious doubt. The neighbours are Green atheists who "cannot have children". Deep stuff. 








						Penda’s Fen
					

Through a series of real and imagined encounters with angels, demons, and England's pagan past, a pastor's son begins to question his religion and politics, and comes to terms with his sexuality.




					www.h2movies.to


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 24, 2022)

brixtonscot said:


> Democracy Now interview with Gabor Maté about his new book -
> “The Myth of Normal: Trauma, Illness, and Healing in a Toxic Culture."
> "The very values of a society are traumatizing for a lot of people," says Maté, who argues in his book that "psychological trauma, woundedness, underlies much of what we call disease."



I've said for many years - there is no such thing as normal, it's just common.

I've only recently become aware of the idea of collective trauma and coming to terms with post thatcher stress disorder. 

We live in a mad world.

I've seen YouTube's of Gabor Mate and he is an engaging speaker.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 28, 2022)

For Mindfulness fans. Dr Florian Ruths (who treated me with Lithium at Community Health in Norwood Hight St/Streatham High Rd in 2010/11) is on this podcast.

I'd forgotten how personable and yet bonkers he is. He never suggested Mindfulness to me - but that was not the remit in community psychiatry, it was more how to bring the patient down to earth without screwing the benefits.
If I tell you that St Florian is the patron saint of firemen you might get why I myself personally am skeptical of mindfulness - even Mindfulness on a Motorbike à la Dr Florian.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 29, 2022)

CH1 said:


> For Mindfulness fans. Dr Florian Ruths (who treated me with Lithium at Community Health in Norwood Hight St/Streatham High Rd in 2010/11) is on this podcast.
> 
> I'd forgotten how personable and yet bonkers he is. He never suggested Mindfulness to me - but that was not the remit in community psychiatry, it was more how to bring the patient down to earth without screwing the benefits.
> If I tell you that St Florian is the patron saint of firemen you might get why I myself personally am skeptical of mindfulness - even Mindfulness on a Motorbike à la Dr Florian.



tried some online mindfulness zooms during lockdown to help my anxiety but just couldn't cope with it at all. It brought on a panic attack. 
Decided I might needed out-of-mind-fulness.


----------



## brixtonscot (Sep 30, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've only recently become aware of the idea of collective trauma and coming to terms with post thatcher stress disorder.



Could that maybe be an underlying theme of this whole thread ?
And how we are affected , and respond - individually and collectively - to the circumstances we are living through ?


----------



## furluxor (Oct 8, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> tried some online mindfulness zooms during lockdown to help my anxiety but just couldn't cope with it at all. It brought on a panic attack.
> Decided I might needed out-of-mind-fulness.



I did that too (an NHS mindfulness course) - also during lockdown and it did work for me but:
1) some of the people in my group had serious mental health issues. I could of course be optimistic and assume that mindfulness was offered to them as part of their actual treatment but I suspect it was a substitute (or a side dish to SSRIs). 
2) it required a lot of commitment and effort, 1-2h per day + weekly sesh + one half-day sesh. I was told it was primarily targeted at people with depression and if I know one thing about depression is that doing something - anything - is incredibly difficult, let alone such a rigorous course.
3) it was helpful and relaxing but in the end it was not what reduced my anxiety; letting negative thoughts come and go is not the same as dealing with the mechanisms behind those thoughts.
4) I think a big part of the therapeutic effect came from simply talking about issues with the group - once we got to know each other and felt less freaked out.

TL;DR: mindfulness is a nice to have but it's being used as treatment which it is not, and don't even get me started on its use in the workplace


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 9, 2022)

furluxor said:


> TL;DR: mindfulness is a nice to have but it's being used as treatment which it is not, and don't even get me started on its use in the workplace



I think there is a lot to be said for meditation practise/ mindfullness

 Within business however it is used to make people feel the problems they face in the workplace ( in capitalist society where there labour is being exploited) is due to them not having the right frame of mind.

I know one company that offers its staff free mindfullness courses yet the way it operates as a business is the opposite of mindfullness.

There is a certain appropriation of Eastern philosophy that means a CEO can have Feng Shui designed office, give staff mindfulness courses yet exploit there staff.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 10, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> Ive only recently become aware of the idea of collective trauma and coming to terms with post thatcher stress disorder.
> 
> We live in a mad world.





brixtonscot said:


> Could that maybe be an underlying theme of this whole thread ?
> And how we are affected , and respond - individually and collectively - to the circumstances we are living through ?


Yes. 

No amount of mindfulness will solve today's political problems, that of voracious capitalism devouring the world's resources. 

I found myself accidentally part of an extinction rebellion march recently and their joyous chants of 'this is what democracy looks like!' filled me with hope.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 10, 2022)

furluxor said:


> I did that too (an NHS mindfulness course) - also during lockdown and it did work for me but:
> 1) some of the people in my group had serious mental health issues. I could of course be optimistic and assume that mindfulness was offered to them as part of their actual treatment but I suspect it was a substitute (or a side dish to SSRIs).
> 2) it required a lot of commitment and effort, 1-2h per day + weekly sesh + one half-day sesh. I was told it was primarily targeted at people with depression and if I know one thing about depression is that doing something - anything - is incredibly difficult, let alone such a rigorous course.
> 3) it was helpful and relaxing but in the end it was not what reduced my anxiety; letting negative thoughts come and go is not the same as dealing with the mechanisms behind those thoughts.
> ...


Seems like my local NHS seems to only offer Cognitive behavioural therapy, CBT. Which didn't help my panicking and is not helpful for every mental health condition. 

During lockdown 5 of us from my older queer group set up our own weekly 'wellbeing zoom' like a sort of group therapy to talk about our physical, mental and social problems. We discussed what we wanted, what we were comfortable with and decided on a format of each talking one by one without interruption for ten minutes or so then general discussion, questions, suggestions with time at the end again to each speak without interruption about how we were afterwards and what we do next. 

That felt very helpful. I think we are capable of figuring out our own solutions and it was good to be taking things into our own hands.


----------



## furluxor (Oct 11, 2022)

Gramsci said:


> I think there is a lot to be said for meditation practise/ mindfullness



Oh, I agree with you. I still do both here and there, and they feel particularly attractive in a society where distraction is sold as multitasking. But yeah, like you said, in a workplace it's often either a way to make people feel responsible for their own exploitation, a hasty crisis management exercise or a way to look like they're doing something whilst doing nothing.



friendofdorothy said:


> Seems like my local NHS seems to only offer Cognitive behavioural therapy, CBT. Which didn't help my panicking and is not helpful for every mental health condition.
> 
> During lockdown 5 of us from my older queer group set up our own weekly 'wellbeing zoom' like a sort of group therapy to talk about our physical, mental and social problems. We discussed what we wanted, what we were comfortable with and decided on a format of each talking one by one without interruption for ten minutes or so then general discussion, questions, suggestions with time at the end again to each speak without interruption about how we were afterwards and what we do next.
> 
> That felt very helpful. I think we are capable of figuring out our own solutions and it was good to be taking things into our own hands.



Yeah, I had the same. I did find CBT helpful but I waited 1.5 years for the princely 6 sessions of it. My therapist told me about a mindfulness course run by NHS and I self-referred. But what really helped me were Feeling Good podcasts on TEAM CBT. Dr Burns irritates the shit out of me, his comments can be sexist/racist/egotistical/etc, but his system is very effective and I'd wish I had access to this resource when I was younger. 

Your lockdown group sounds absolutely wonderful. I wish I had something like that in my life. I think most people would!


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## CH1 (Oct 24, 2022)

Just asking about this
WPF Therapy came up in my Facebook timeline (as "sponsored").
*Privilege, Identity and Otherness:
An Intersectional Exploration............... *     (it said)

Anything mentioning intersectionality attracts my attention.
Does it exist, or is it:
a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture, but rather repugnant to the Word of God?

Whatever the case an introductory interview with WPF Therapy to elucidate in one's personal case will cost £120




__





						Initial contact & consultation - WPF Therapy
					






					wpf.org.uk
				




Just curious to know how Facebook's algorithm determined I was good for this.
Do I compute as "vulnerable, depressive, bipolar, super-rich, non-substance-abusing"?


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 24, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Just asking about this
> WPF Therapy came up in my Facebook timeline (as "sponsored").
> *Privilege, Identity and Otherness:
> An Intersectional Exploration............... *     (it said)
> ...


I don't like the look of them.  Didn't see anything on their site about intersectionality.   As well as charging £120 for an initial consultation they ask for donations - They invite donations, leagacies and have someting about gift aid - but dont include a charity number  



> We are supported by individual donors who believe in the work we do; some donate regular payments by standing order and others make one-off gifts. We are grateful to all of them for their generous support which enables us to continue and develop our work.​Donations help us in many ways:
> 
> supporting our affordable clinic and subsidised therapy, helping us to keep our costs down
> providing bursaries for trainees who cannot afford full fees
> ...


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 24, 2022)

I'm feeling fairly hopeless today, but that could just be because I'm ill. It all looks bleak.


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 24, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> They invite donations, leagacies and have someting about gift aid - but dont include a charity number



bottom line of their website has



> Company No. 1214251 Registered in England | Registered Charity No. 273434 | Organisational member of the BACP and UKCP


 
I've not checked either.

And I misread it as WTF which is probably not good



friendofdorothy said:


> I'm feeling fairly hopeless today, but that could just be because I'm ill. It all looks bleak.





get well soon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> Yes.
> 
> No amount of mindfulness will solve today's political problems, that of voracious capitalism devouring the world's resources.
> 
> I found myself accidentally part of an extinction rebellion march recently and their joyous chants of 'this is what democracy looks like!' filled me with hope.


I love XR for their optimism, but I do find them (XR Lambeth used our hall a lot before lockdown, & several times since lockdown ended) rather bourgeois, & therefore a bit removed from what life is like for those of us at "ground zero". They're rather like the Green Party in that way. They are, however, advocates of direct action, & that can only be a good thing.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 24, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm feeling fairly hopeless today, but that could just be because I'm ill. It all looks bleak.


Keep your chin up. We've been here before, back in the 1970s, with politicians reacting to events they have no control over; with poverty; with political turmoil; with stagflation & that existential pain from believing that everything is falling apart. We survived that - & Thatcher - & we'll survive this. It hurts, but it'll pass, & solutions to problems - or at least ameliorations - will be found. Capitalism won't strangle itself. It'll make accommodations, because who kills off their customer base? What we need to do is make (large OR small) efforts to help them realise this. Me, I send letters to large retailers, instructing them how to not be such wasteful people, & how donating to communities is a good way to establish "customer loyalty".


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

Maybe I'm going off-topic here, but one of my issues is how political correctness has morphed into war.
I've just ordered this US academic treatise in the Springer academic sale - wonder if it will clear things up?
The book is from 2018 - predating the way things have now gone in the UK with Twitter wars and GB News - but not predating Fox news of course.


A timely intervention in the hot-button topics of free speech and political correctness
Accessibly engages with the sociological and cultural concerns arising from recent events on college campus and in wider society
Relevant to an array of disciplines including sociology, culture and media studies, psychology, politics, and American studies
I was finally pushed into this by someone I know re-Tweeting a Momentum attack on the Labour MP for Canterbury, who has apparently called into question Eddie Izzard's status as "a woman".

It does seem to me that life on the left these days is a bit like European religious life in the 16th century.
On the one hand you could be burned at the stake for undermining the Pope or the King - but then again you had charismatic nutters like this who said the kingdom of God has arrived and polygamy was now permitted








						John of Leiden - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It might be quite nice to go back to the mores of Manchester c. 1974 when drag queens were fun and not an identity issue. (pace one of my former employers - Mr Danny la Rue)


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 Not read the book but the title annoys me. Fits in with the popular media idea that anyone who complains is a whining snowflake.  When there is so much to complain about they want to highlight the arguments in a few universities and spatts on twitter that highlight difference and divisions between us. It plays into the hands of who benefit by the principal of divide and rule.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Maybe I'm going off-topic here, but one of my issues is how political correctness has morphed into war.


'political correctness' was a previous term of abuse against anyone who called out sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like 'woke' now.  

I've often been told I was too 'politically correct' when I objected to jokes about patients with AIDS or objected to everyday sexism, racism etc. it was a way to belittle my objection and reinforce the egos of those who thought their own unexamined cruel words were perfectly acceptable and it was I who lacked a sense of humour.

Not sure what you mean by 'morphed into war'. I always felt I was 'at war' with the status quo, the Tory govt and the patriarchal world in general. I felt very much under attack and the need to fight back. Isn't it the same now?


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> 'political correctness' was a previous term of abuse against anyone who called out sexism, racism, or homophobia. Like 'woke' now.
> 
> I've often been told I was too 'politically correct' when I objected to jokes about patients with AIDS or objected to everyday sexism, racism etc. it was a way to belittle my objection and reinforce the egos of those who thought their own unexamined cruel words were perfectly acceptable and it was I who lacked a sense of humour.
> 
> Not sure what you mean by 'morphed into war'. I always felt I was 'at war' with the status quo, the Tory govt and the patriarchal world in general. I felt very much under attack and the need to fight back. Isn't it the same now?


On GB News Woke is used like Queer was used against me at school.
On the other hand I seldom hear woke used in a positive way.

On the third hand I have often heard - in the past - "politically correct" used to describe something appropriate and progressive.

Will we always be dancing around euphemisms in what we say? Suella Braverman managed to turn Guardian reading and tofu eating into a form of fascist abuse. So what is the response?

Personally I favour censorship. Braverman has gone, unless Sunak brought her back. I think it would be great if GB News and Talk TV were taken off air. And TBN Christian TV on Freeview 66.

It's bad enough people slagging you off in person, should that happen, without paying your license fee to facilitate it on Freeview!


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

Interesting how yesterday's media insults become common language. Eg suffragette.  

In the gay community it's always been the tradition to adopt the insult and wear it with pride. Like the word 'Queer' or 'pits and perverts'. I remember 'swirling in a cesspit of our own creation' on a huge banner above the stage at Pride in kennington park in '89. How we laughed and danced then. 

I read a article in the standard reminding us Ms Braverman is years out of date mentioning tofu. If she was up to date she would have said jackfruit and kimchi. Reminded how yogurt eaters and muesli eaters were derided by previous ministers.  I think someone has already made a t-shirt out of the tofu munching wokeratti comment which I expect to see on demos everywhere soon.


----------



## furluxor (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> CH1 Not read the book but the title annoys me. Fits in with the popular media idea that anyone who complains is a whining snowflake.  When there is so much to complain about they want to highlight the arguments in a few universities and spatts on twitter that highlight difference and divisions between us. It plays into the hands of who benefit by the principal of divide and rule.



Yeah, same here. I'd be very curious to find out whether the book covers the adoption of the 'victimisation culture' by CIS white men, aka the Jordan Petersen crowd. And then differentiates between the groups that are genuinely marginalised and those that just want the social capital that comes with being seen as such. I'm not holding my breath.


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## _Russ_ (Oct 25, 2022)

Something must make you happy?


----------



## _Russ_ (Oct 25, 2022)

That sounded shit, didnt it
poor attempt


----------



## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

furluxor said:


> Yeah, same here. I'd be very curious to find out whether the book covers the adoption of the 'victimisation culture' by CIS white men, aka the Jordan Petersen crowd. And then differentiates between the groups that are genuinely marginalised and those that just want the social capital that comes with being seen as such. I'm not holding my breath.


That is precisely the point. Never mind Petersen, GBN, Carole Malone etc claim to be victimised by "culture warriors".
This is all ass about tit. Trump gets witch-hunted and people suffocated by police officers are drug abusers.
The Metropolitan Police culture in London jumped on this bandwagon according to their WhatsAp fulminations.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Something must make you happy?


Is this to the world in general or to a particular poster?

Is happiness the antidote to hopelessness?

edit to add I find happiness to be a slippery and transitory emotion. One that is constantly sold to us by capitalism.


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> That sounded shit, didnt it
> poor attempt


Sounded like an attempt to get banned to me.


----------



## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Sounded like an attempt to get banned to me.


If sarcastic.


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> In the gay community it's always been the tradition to adopt the insult and wear it with pride.


I suppose I did that in as far as I was able. Became the school mascot pervert of my year if you like.
But this is not healthy is it? It left me with a life-long habit of "over sharing".


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> That is precisely the point. Never mind Petersen, GBN, Carole Malone etc claim to be victimised by "culture warriors".
> This is all ass about tit. Trump gets witch-hunted and people suffocated by police officers are drug abusers.
> The Metropolitan Police culture in London jumped on this bandwagon according to their WhatsAp fulminations.


Those those in power / in the majority seem to feel threatened by any visibility or presence by any minority or less powerful than themselves.


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## furluxor (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> That is precisely the point. Never mind Petersen, GBN, Carole Malone etc claim to be victimised by "culture warriors".
> This is all ass about tit. Trump gets witch-hunted and people suffocated by police officers are drug abusers.
> The Metropolitan Police culture in London jumped on this bandwagon according to their WhatsAp fulminations.



Idk if I understand you correctly (if not, correct me) but to me it seems pretty understandable and to have been expected. The society progresses, we attach social capital to being marginalised in order to give marginalised people a voice (I won't go so far as to say 'power'), then everyone wants some. Frustrating at times, sure, but expected.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

_Russ_ said:


> Something must make you happy?


sometimes you say it best by saying nothing at all


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> I love XR for their optimism, but I do find them (XR Lambeth used our hall a lot before lockdown, & several times since lockdown ended) rather bourgeois, & therefore a bit removed from what life is like for those of us at "ground zero". They're rather like the Green Party in that way. They are, however, advocates of direct action, & that can only be a good thing.


yes, and no. advocates for, yes, but they don't give a damn about the people arrested on their direct actions.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> I suppose I did that in as far as I was able. Became the school mascot pervert of my year if you like.
> But this is not healthy is it? It left me with a life-long habit of "over sharing".


Don't know, depends if internalise it or wear it proudly maybe?

I feel it's protected me on occasion , when someone shouted 'dyke!' in my direction and I said 'Yes dyke here! Someone calling me?'  Which shut them up.  (I hasten to add they were on the opposite side of a busy road and far enough for me to run away from, hence my bravery)


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, and no. advocates for, yes, but they don't give a damn about the people arrested on their direct actions.


I thought there was a XR network of volunteers to support those who arrested. Thought too that they urge people who might suffer or be victimised not to put themselves forward to be arrested.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

furluxor said:


> Idk if I understand you correctly (if not, correct me) but to me it seems pretty understandable and to have been expected. The society progresses, we attach social capital to being marginalised in order to give marginalised people a voice (I won't go so far as to say 'power'), then everyone wants some. Frustrating at times, sure, but expected.


Is there social capital to being marginalised? Does that happen? (I'm old and we used to being treated like scum) I suppose lgbtq became fashionable at some point - is that what you mean?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought there was a XR network of volunteers to support those who arrested. Thought too that they urge people who might suffer or be victimised not to put themselves forward to be arrested.


it's possible there have been such groups, but if so the group of about twenty people i saw in court at city of london magistrates a couple of years back slipped through their net, as none of them had ever encountered this support and no one from xr turned up to offer even moral support. the group of people i saw getting convicted came from a range of backgrounds, including a couple of pensioners. it's disgraceful that the organisation that encouraged them to risk arrest did nothing to support them when they were arrested, charged, and prosecuted.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> it's possible there have been such groups, but if so the group of about twenty people i saw in court at city of london magistrates a couple of years back slipped through their net, as none of them had ever encountered this support and no one from xr turned up to offer even moral support. the group of people i saw getting convicted came from a range of backgrounds, including a couple of pensioners. it's disgraceful that the organisation that encouraged them to risk arrest did nothing to support them when they were arrested, charged, and prosecuted.


That is sad to hear. I'm sure we can find fault with every organisation of protest that has ever existed. I still find it hopeful that XR exist and are raising awareness of and fighting climate change in creative ways.

Are you on this thread just to nit pick or do you have something to say about combatting hopelessness?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> That is sad to hear. I'm sure we can find fault with every organisation of protest that has ever existed. I still find it hopeful that XR exist and are raising awareness of and fighting climate change in creative ways.
> 
> Are you on this thread just to nit pick or do you have something to say about combatting hopelessness?


i don't think it's nit picking to raise in response to a post about xr how shoddily they treat people arrested on their protests when they're in the courts. after all, one of the aims of xr was to clog up the courts with arrestees from their demos, it's not oops we never thought about people facing magistrates. they just don't care.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

but turning to combating hopelessness, one of the things i did over lockdown was to start putting out birdfeeders - watching birds eating is very therapeutic ime, you see what social creatures they are and how they take turns to eat. and if you're lucky you'll see a squirrel or two doing acrobatics to get at the food. ok, it's not going to defeat the 3am depression, but it's certainly good for mental health. if you watch autumnwatch when it comes on - probably next month, i think - you'll see various stories about how getting out into nature has worked wonders for people's mental health. you don't need to go to the cairngorms, there's a surprising amount of wildlife fairly near each of us. plus viewing autumnwatch and the other -watches are beneficial in themselves.


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## furluxor (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> Is there social capital to being marginalised? Does that happen? (I'm old and we used to being treated like scum) I suppose lgbtq became fashionable at some point - is that what you mean?



I'd argue that there is. The society has been changing. There's a growing understanding that people from marginalised groups: 1) need to be represented in more areas of decision making; 2) are best placed to lead the discussion on the specific issues relating to the group. We discuss whether we need quotas. We try to amplify those voices when we can. We haven't 'arrived' - not by far, it's a hard-going grind with much backlash - but I'd say that there's definitely been progress.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it's nit picking to raise in response to a post about xr how shoddily they treat people arrested on their protests when they're in the courts. after all, one of the aims of xr was to clog up the courts with arrestees from their demos, it's not oops we never thought about people facing magistrates. they just don't care.


This isn't a thread about the operational inadequacy of a particular group. Isn't there an XR thread somewhere? Go bother that.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

friendofdorothy said:


> This isn't a thread about the operational inadequacy of a particular group. Isn't there an XR thread somewhere? Go bother that.


i wasn't commenting on the operational inadequacy of the group. i was directly replying to ViolentPanda and then to you when you asked me a question. if you don't want to read it then don't ask for it.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, and no. advocates for, yes, but they don't give a damn about the people arrested on their direct actions.


I can only speak about XR Lambeth, who have always had a laudable support system for when their people are arrested - possibly because some of their activists are of our vintage, & have seen plenty of other action.


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> but turning to combating hopelessness, one of the things i did over lockdown was to start putting out birdfeeders - watching birds eating is very therapeutic ime, you see what social creatures they are and how they take turns to eat. and if you're lucky you'll see a squirrel or two doing acrobatics to get at the food. ok, it's not going to defeat the 3am depression, but it's certainly good for mental health. if you watch autumnwatch when it comes on - probably next month, i think - you'll see various stories about how getting out into nature has worked wonders for people's mental health. you don't need to go to the cairngorms, there's a surprising amount of wildlife fairly near each of us. plus viewing autumnwatch and the other -watches are beneficial in themselves.


Are you into Messiaen? (Just asking)


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

CH1 said:


> Are you into Messiaen? (Just asking)


Not knowingly


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2022)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can only speak about XR Lambeth, who have always had a laudable support system for when their people are arrested - possibly because some of their activists are of our vintage, & have seen plenty of other action.


very glad to hear that


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## CH1 (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> Not knowingly


reason for asking - this extraordinary work composed to be performed in Stalag VIII-A in 1941.
Birdsong is a major compositional feature (sorry about the adverts)


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## Puddy_Tat (Oct 25, 2022)

Pickman's model said:


> but turning to combating hopelessness, one of the things i did over lockdown was to start putting out birdfeeders - watching birds eating is very therapeutic ime, you see what social creatures they are and how they take turns to eat. and if you're lucky you'll see a squirrel or two doing acrobatics to get at the food. ok, it's not going to defeat the 3am depression, but it's certainly good for mental health. if you watch autumnwatch when it comes on - probably next month, i think - you'll see various stories about how getting out into nature has worked wonders for people's mental health. you don't need to go to the cairngorms, there's a surprising amount of wildlife fairly near each of us. plus viewing autumnwatch and the other -watches are beneficial in themselves.



how about a squirrel picnic table?







(although suppose you might get trouble from the crack addicts)


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