# Forward Wales in crisis



## niclas (Sep 14, 2005)

Judging from this report on seren.blogspirit.com, Forward Wales is in meltdown...


*Forward Wales heads for oblivion* 
 Forward Wales continues to implode after losing many of its leading activists including its sole councillor Dave Bithell, the National Secretary and International Organiser. Now the trade union organiser has quit.

The party's website has been "under construction" for the past four months - i.e. since the website organiser resigned - and members have just received their first written communication since the elections. It includes the minutes of the June 19 National Committee, which decided to change the name of the party from "Forward Wales, the Welsh Socialist Party" back to "Forward Wales". Dropping the socialist tag is a deliberate attempt to distance itself from the Scottish Socialist Party.

 Not only is such a move against the party's rules - changes to the constitution can only be made at annual conference - but it took place without any prior consultation with the membership, who had no knowledge that such a step was even being considered.

Those who quit are citing disagreements with the political direction of the party - specifically a secret deal party leader John Marek struck with the Tories to stand a spoiling candidate in marginal Cardiff North at the recent General Election - as well as the lack of internal democracy in the party. 

They are also disillusioned with Marek's performance in the Assembly, where he has put more emphasis on his role as deputy speaker than campaigning for his new party and winning affiliation from unions such as the RMT.

More locally, there has also been dissatisfaction with Marek's handling of the crisis surrounding the planned redevelopment of Wrexham Football Club's stadium, in which he has openly aligned himself with disgraced former chairman Mark Guterman who is hated by fans.

The activists who have left are re-grouping locally in the Wrexham Socialist Forum and include a quarter of the party's candidates in last year's council elections. 

Fewer than 100 members remain in the party throughout Wales and the number of activists has dwindled dramatically. 

One of the party's founder members told SEReN: "Forward Wales was born from an alliance of former Labourites and socialists who were united in wanting to challenge Labour's unhealthy grip on Welsh politics. Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

Forward Wales, which was almost exclusively concentrated in Wrexham and Clwyd South, managed impressive results in those areas in the council elections - standing candidates in more than half the borough's seats and gaining 23% of the vote. It also played a prominent role in campaigning against the sale of school playing fields and housing stock transfer, which Wrexham tenants rejected decisively.

The ex-member said: "The party was a very real threat to Labour in the north-east and had the potential to win over disillusioned left-wingers throughout Wales. But the party's dependence for its finances on John Marek meant it was vulnerable to an undemocratic clique surrounding him. This led to decisions on candidates being pushed through with no real debate or discussion - what Marek wanted, he got. 

"There's no doubt Marek was very generous with his money - he stumped up many thousands personally to pay for the Assembly and the Westminster elections. But he failed to realise that real political change is based on building parties between elections - there was never any money forthcoming for that. The national secretary couldn't even get stamps to mail out to members at times!"

A picture emerges of key members quitting and many more peripheral members drifting away disillusioned with the party's failure to build on its early promise. 

It's possible FW will limp on to the 2007 Assembly elections, partly because Marek can afford to fund another set of candidates and partly because Ron Davies wants a last crack at returning to political power. But a party that can't even stick to its own rules and keeps its few remaining members in the dark over key decisions does not have a credible future.

Attempting to build a party round a rebel ex-Labour politician ultimately proved to be a quick-fix solution that came unstuck. Respect should take note.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 14, 2005)

Good stuff


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## lewislewis (Sep 14, 2005)

haha, i remember that guy saying to me how great Forward Wales were going to become. Fun times.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 15, 2005)

same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited  caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen  a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed   Caerphilly Campaign  .
Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption)


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## roger rosewall (Sep 15, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> same here. The sooner Ron davies buggers off into oblivion the better, hes like a local sleb here. The archbishop of canterbury visited  caerfilthy last weekend and the local paper printed not one thing about it despite a bit marquee being erected and a video screen  a whole days event, kids activities , a real party atmosphere AND the archbishop making key statements about recent events which could have been a total key article for the esteemed   Caerphilly Campaign  .
> Why I hear you ask? Becuase Ron fucking badgerbothering davies crawled out and did 'something' mildly interesting( I use the term sparingly and sarcastically) and the local paper crawled dtraight back up his arse( I hope the apologised to the badgers for their interuption)



It's fair comment that Ron Davis is a past it asswipe but why should anybody give a toss about the Arch witchdoctor of Canterbury?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 15, 2005)

They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they? You might not be religious or want to read about it but that shouldnt stop it being featured. Its not every day the archbishop of catherbury visits a small town, a huge video screen is erected, thousands turn up and listen to what he has to say.
Just becuase Ron does something pretty mediocre and un newsworthy he shouldnt take precedece over something that might deserve some coverage just becuase its ron and hes loved by the midguided idiots who live round here and the editor.Its a local paper which is supposed to feature local events, of which this was one
It was obviously important enough to the huge numbers of people who showed up on the day yet the local paper gave it no coverage becuase Ron called them to take photos of him doing something pathetic and unimportant


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 15, 2005)

Could the source of the split be over nationalism?

"Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."

I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.


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## chilango (Sep 15, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Could the source of the split be over nationalism?
> 
> "Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."
> 
> I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.



So are CG going to go it alone again?


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## roger rosewall (Sep 15, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> They should at least be given the opportunity to read about it in the local rag if they do give a toss though shouldnt they?



Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.


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## roger rosewall (Sep 15, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Could the source of the split be over nationalism?
> 
> "Differences over the national question were fudged - a fatal mistake with hindsight - but it also emerged that revenge and spite was a more powerful driving force for some of the ex-Labourites than any real desire to build a radical political alternative for Wales."
> 
> I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.



To be fair to Cymru Goch, which I would rather not be, they are involved in various real life campaigns. They are an activist group and have the usual concerns that activists have.

John Marek on the other hand is an old fashioned placeman who has never been involved with any kind of campaigning or trade union activism in his life. All the poor old sod wanted was a bunch of canvassers to back him until his retiremnt on the generous pensions granted our elected representatives. On the other hand CG wanted a vehicle for their campaigning and left nationalist politics.

I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.

PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.


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## Karac (Sep 15, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.



Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism"  (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"

I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.


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## chilango (Sep 15, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Dont see why being "hostile to Nationalism"  (though i think Ron Davies was more hostile to Tory rule of Wales) would rule out setting up a "Wales only organisation"
> 
> I dont know much about about Cymru Goch but i assume the attempt was to set up some sort of Welsh equivalent of the Scottish Socialist Party-something i would have supported if it got off the ground.



hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 15, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> I doubt the collapse of Backward Wales was really over politics at all. Marek has precious few and Davies substitutes his ego for a program. The various parts simply fell apart because there is nothing to unite them. Both lack any serious social basis and as such simply float around on the margins doomed to obscurity.
> 
> PS What is Charlie Kimbers "past history of Welsh language activism"? Just curious.



At an SWP day school in Cardiff on Welsh history, Charlie Kimber revealed that his first political activity was around agitating for Welsh language rights.

He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.


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## chilango (Sep 15, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.




As someone else whose political debut was as amember of cymdeithas can I just be a bit peeved at the facile Saunders Lewis bit...have you read any of Cymdeithas´s maniffesto´s etc.? Where is the facsist influence? there ain´t any, so why bring it up?


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## Karac (Sep 15, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> hasn´t there been a couple of those? the WSA for example? and don´t they alwys split between left nationalists/republicans and the "Brit Left" who a) don´t take the national question in Wales seriously and b) whose local leadership is largely (though not exclusively) made up of English graduates from the University of Wales?


Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English.


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## Karac (Sep 15, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.


Total crap of course.
There was a discussion a month or 2 about this issue here-http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=117160


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## chilango (Sep 15, 2005)

Quick question:

How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 15, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Yeah sure whatever. Write a letter to the rag.



Grow up


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## osterberg (Sep 16, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Probably true-the Swappies i knew in Cardiff and Swansea were all students or ex-students and exclusively English.


 As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint.  
 Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.


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## osterberg (Sep 16, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Quick question:
> 
> How many Socialist Worker posters/placards have ever been printed in Welsh?


 They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.


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## Ben Bore (Sep 16, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> He was a member of Cymdeithas yr laith Gymraeg (the Welsh Language Society) and described going round defacing English road signs, occupying post offices and demanding leaflets be written in Welsh, but as he himself commented their was a bit of contradiction in the organisation - many of the activists described themselves as socialists, yet the president, Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and right winger.



Saunder Lewis was never a President or even a member of Cymdeithas yr Iaith.
It was his lecture 'Tynged yr iaith' (the fate of the language) that insprired the creation of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, mainly members of Plaid Cymru who were frustrated at the party's lack of action at safeguarding the language.
I think Saunders Lewis was critical of Cymdeithas yr Iaith, possibly because of their tactics (non-violent direct action), although this is a bit strange considering that he was a pacafist and also took part in the Penyberth bombing.

Seems that this guy Charlie Kimber wasn't that well informed.

Also worth a read, a blog post by a Cardiff Labour member about How unpleasant was Saunders Lewis?


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 16, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
> But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.



They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.

I take it the latter point is ironic.


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## Karac (Sep 16, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?.


Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies  
By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 16, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies
> By the way -is Piers still involved in the Cardiff SWP?



I was a Welsh SWPer - but . . I . . was . .  in . . England.

A few of them used to like telling me they could make anti-Welsh comments because I wasn't oppressed.


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## osterberg (Sep 16, 2005)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> I take it the latter point is ironic.


Er yes. No offence intended.Sorry.
Should have used one of these


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## Udo Erasmus (Sep 16, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Nothing at all-just making the observation that i personally have never met a Welsh SWPer-obviously there must be some -so it was a bit of broad overstatement-apologies



Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.

Actually the majority of SWP members in my branch are Welsh including the full-timer who was born and brought up in Cardiff, though they don't make a big deal about it - we are all internationalists not provincialists.

I have to say that when I joined the SWP, there were more people from Scottland who were in my branch than England.

Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.

You should maybe speak to one of the main candidates for leadership of the welsh-medium school Teachers' union who is a member of the SWP in Newport

Or maybe Karac's claim is something different.

I mentioned the irony of Cymru Goch accusing the SWP of having an Englishman speak at a debate (between CG, CPGB, SP and SWP) on the national question. The irony being that the SWP member in question was the only welsh speaker on the platform.

The reality is that Cymru Goch thought he was English, because they can't countenance the fact that somebody can be Welsh and reject their parochial nationalism - just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.

It's quite odd, because the overwhelming majority of Welsh people also show little interest in nationalism. Where Plaid has had recent electoral success it has been by posing as a left-alternative to New Labour

I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate

Face it comrades:

Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world


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## Karac (Sep 16, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Firstly, it is well known that Saunders Lewis was a fascist sympathiser and was pretty reactionary and a rightwinger despite being artistically gifted.
> If certain nationalists are in a state of denial about this, fair enough.


Totally wrong and you know it.




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Indeed, Karac must be living in England if he has never met a Welsh swp-er. Most of the leading members I know are Welsh and of the English ones, they may have been students, but donkey's years ago, and have lived in Wales for years.


Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.





			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> just as Karac thinks that the SWP in Wales are all English students because he can't handle the fact that some Welsh people might prefer working class politics to middle class nationalism.


Firstly its a very small "some" and its hardly working-class politics either.
Id say that Plaids manifesto was to the left of your current bandwagon Respect.

[/QUOTE]



			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I'm not even sure if "Wales" exists - South Wales is a completely different country with it's own distinctive culture and history to the West and North, but that's another debate


Ahh now were getting there!
In the days when even the Tory party has a seperate Welsh section now-the staunchly Anglicist SWP even refuse to recognise that Wales exists.


[/QUOTE]




			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world


Plaid Cymru has probably got more working-class members in one branch than you have in Wales in total!
Your a shadow of the organisation you were 10 years ago in Cardiff-and you werent up to much then.
Real world!-what do you know about the real world?


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## osterberg (Sep 16, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Ok ,point taken, i didnt do a survey or anything-just my personal experience.
> Probably from having to put up with an annoying posh prat called Piers from Cardiff SWP one time.



 I know the one of whom you speak and I share you're pain.  

Udo has an irritating habit of winding people up on the question of nationalism.
I don't completely disagree with him but sometimes a little diplomacy and tact goes a long way.
I have absolutely no problem with the promotion of the Welsh language.People have the right to speak their own langauge.
Whether Saunders Lewis was a nazi or not is irrelevant to today's Welsh Nationalists who are clearly not nazis.
I'd be perfectly happy if the UK did break up.I'd have no problem with an independent Wales.
 However I think that the main divisions in society are class not nationality.
As a fairly low paid worker living in Wales I've got a lot more in common with someone similar living in England than I do with the Welsh billionaire who owns the Celtic Manor hotel.
 Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.
 As for Forward Wales I never thought they had much basis in reality to survive in the first place.
By the way how does Udo know Karac is a 'he'?Isn't such an assumption sexist? Not very right on.


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 16, 2005)

> Face it comrades:
> 
> Nationalism is a middle class wet dream. Possibly enjoyable for you in a seedy kind of way, but little help in confronting the problems of the real world



Its done a pretty good job of saving the Welsh language. 

Most valleys people I know hold to old labour values, but there is always an element of welsh nationalism mixed in there. Where I grew up in Merthyr people are generally pretty class conscious at a broad level, but they also also see the exploitation of the region as something done to them by the English establishment - the Iron Masters and so on. 

It used to irritate me when I was in the SWP that this element was consistently down played cos it didn't fit with the party line - which was its own type of seedy wet dream.


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 16, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Also I don't think Wales can be said to be an oppressed nation.There a parts of England as poor as the poorest parts of Wales with the same problems.


Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.


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## niclas (Sep 17, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I always found it strange that Ron Davies and John Marek who are hostile to nationalism set up a Wales-only organisation whose main activists seemed to be linked to Cymru Goch, a nationalist organisation who left the Welsh Socialist Alliance because it refused to make independence it's main focus prefering class-politics, bizarely they (cymru goch) accused the SWP of having an Englishman representing them at a debate on the national question between different groups in the WSA, bizare because Charlie Kimber of the SWP was the only Welsh speaker on the platform at the debate and has a past history of Welsh language activism.



I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English - to my knowledge he's working as a journalist for Socialist Worker in London. Don't tar an entire organisation on that basis - it might come back to bite yer arse  

Udo's attempts to paint CG as a nationalist organisation are predictable and a bit lame. While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities. While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign. 

CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP and within months the SWP had wound up the whole sorry show after ensuring that the alliance disintegrated into a very unhappy marriage. And when your partner gets abusive, you know it's time to walk out of the door - that's what CG and the SP did. 

CG had many faults but it was consistently active in workers' struggles and sought to build unity at all times on the left. Bitter experience has demonstrated that building unity with organisations that take their orders from London is pointless. 

I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing). 

Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?

 Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but "better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all"... the experience gained will be put to good use.


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## osterberg (Sep 17, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Just a small point - is this really relevant? No doubt parts of the Empire had people less poor then the working class of Manchester in the 19th c but that doesn't mean that those suffering under the yoke of imperial rule were not oppressed or indeed members of an oppressed nation.


Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
If you know of any please tell.


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## lewislewis (Sep 17, 2005)

How can you have socialism in a state that is a remnant of colonialism?

Didn't the SWP support the African nationalist movements whilst also calling for socialism? Why can't they do the same in Wales?

Wales does exist Udo, I don't think many people in this country would agree with you that it doesn't. You need to realise that this world isn't fair, but I can't see it changing before someone presses the nuclear button. I'd rather die in an unjust, capitalist Wales than the artificial UK super-state.


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 17, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Well yes but surely the basis of Welsh nationalism is that Wales is in some way being held back economically by England.
> I have come across no convincing examples of present-day English oppression of the Welsh.
> If you know of any please tell.


As i am not a welsh nationalist i wouldn't really know if the basis of welsh nationalism is any such thing. I was merely pointing out that imperialism is not merely an economic construct.


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## nwnm (Sep 18, 2005)

Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply


1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….

2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK

3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .


4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP;  (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).

5)”Forward Wales could have been a Welsh version of the SSP. It became Old Labour MkII. Despite that, it mobilised the successful campaign against stock transfer in Wrexham (and only last week the council admitted that tenants were still opposed as strongly as before), launched campaigns for free school meals and against the sell off of council housing, fought fascists trying to muscle in on the tail of the Caia Pk riots, won trade union affiliation from the RMT, initiated the anti-war campaign in Wrexham and came within 20 votes of winning 3 seats on Wrexham Council (only got one, but it only missed beating the council leader by 14 votes). Not a bad result in 18 months - I wonder if Respect can point to any similar successes?” Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of  Forward Wales in context.

6)”Despite this, it failed. Socialists joined with their eyes opened and maybe should have seen it coming - but ‘better to have fought and lost than not have fought at all‘... the experience gained will be put to good use” Actually you didn’t fight at all. You went along with a ban on members being allowed to sell newspapers etc - so that effectively members of existing organisations would either have to leave or dissolve their organisations to join Forward Wales - this is anathema to both the Scottish Socialist Party and RESPECT, which allows affiliated organisations to continue selling their literature. 

The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this  - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.


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## rednblack (Sep 18, 2005)

glad to see CG walking out of the stupid forward wales project, i always had time for them - maybe they should look across the border at the iwca for some tips


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## niclas (Sep 18, 2005)

NWNM, I think I too will have to reply point by point...




			
				nwnm said:
			
		

> Niclas - I think you deserve a point by point reply
> 
> 
> 1) “I doubt that CG accused Charlie Kimber of "being English". I wasn't at the particular meeting in question but surely you mean someone who may or may not be a CG member mentioned that Kimber was English “ Well I was - and the fact that the person who said it was representing Cymru Goch on the platform was kind of a give away….



Can't argue with that.



> 2)“While the SWP was dismissing the 1984-5 miners' support groups as "charity", CG (with other activists) was actively supporting miners in their communities.” Actually the SWP were involved in setting up one of the first support groups in the UK



Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.



> 3)”While the SWP was calling on trade unionists to pass motions denouncing the poll tax, CG (and other socialists, notably Militant) was organising in working-class communities to build a mass non-payment campaign“ The first person to be imprisoned in England for non-payment was in fact a member of the SWP, (his ‘Mackenzies friend’ was a Militant supporter) .



Not the same thing (and again I was talking about Wales). Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax.



> 4)”CG's reasons for leaving the WSA were varied, as I recall. They were soon followed by the SP” Nope - CG walked out of the WSA annual conference after losing the vote on independence. They walked out during the lunch break. Not particularly politically astute; as nobody noticed that they didn’t return until conference finished! The SP left after losing the vote for candidate at an election hustings meeting. The SP later claimed this was ‘packed out’ by SWP members, an assertion strenuously denied by amongst others the Alliance for Workers Liberty - not exactly bed-fellows of the SWP;  (not to mention the various non aligned WSA’ers present).



Not true - we went to the pub at lunchtime (not a walk out) and just never made it back! How could we have walked out when one of our members was elected to the editorial board of the WSA paper and continued to edit that for some months after the conference? CG officially left in a statement some time later. The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee. 



> 5) Lets see….we have an MP who won standing for RESPECT (not as an independent), 4 candidates who came second and quite a number who came 3rd in the General Election. I believe that with the last couple of defections from the New Labour we have around 10 councillors. We grew out of the anti war movement have one Trade Union General Secretary who’s a member (at least one other is sympathetic) and have a record of raising support for strikes such as Gate Gourmet, Rolls Royce, PCS, Sefton UNISON etc. Oh and we also initiated the 10,000 strong Unite Against Racism festival in Liverpool, after the murder of Anthony Walker. I think this places the achievements of  Forward Wales in context.


You don't get it, do you? I was talking in a Welsh context. To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?



> The last thing we need now is for the left to dissolve into even smaller splinter parties; although I’m sure there are some people who are more than happy to reinvent the wheel endlessly (ever see a film called “The Incredible Shrinking Man?). Personally, I think RESPECT offers the best hope of uniting the left with hitherto unorganised sections of the working class. I don’t expect to convince you of this  - but hope we can find ways of working together over issues that matter, and areas where we find agreement.



It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA. 
I have no intention of splintering into ever smaller parties and will happily work with any socialist on campaigns on which we can agree - but don't kid yourself that RESPECT's the only game in town on the left in Wales. Given the fractures in the "unity" coalition, it's only a matter of time before that splinters too.


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## nwnm (Sep 18, 2005)

Here we go again -

1)“Silly me - there I was thinking in a Welsh context, this being a Welsh board after all. The SWP was noticeable by its absence in the miners' support groups until a turn by the leadership in the last couple of months of the strike.” That’s funny - I thought socialists were supposed to be internationalists, (presumably neither of us should have mentioned the SSP either…) We were active in Miners Support Groups in areas where we had members - there are still a layer of people around who joined the SWP during the dispute. We also continued selling papers at some of the pits we went to AFTER the strike up until they closed. At one pit on the last day the miners not only bought every copy we had - but invite the girls doing the sale in for breakfast in the canteen!

2)”Militant and CG (as well as anarchists and non-aligned socialists) understood the importance of the mass non-payment campaign while the SWP thought that getting council workers' unions to refuse to implement the poll tax was the way forward - it was a mistake and you should be big enough to acknowledge it. The SWP was nowhere to be seen in the anti-poll tax feds or the Welsh Campaign Against Poll Tax“ So you were not in favour of  people taking industrial action against the poll tax then? There were a small number of strikes - we tried to spread them. Some were against implementing the poll tax, others focussed on adding the poll tax to wage demands. Obviously the ones based on implementation were the most political, but they fizzled out after a while. We WERE also involved in local anti poll tax Feds. In fact, we had quite a few delegates from Wales  at the 2nd All Britain Anti Poll Tax Fed conference in Manchester, (but I am probably banned from mentioning that - as it was not held in Cymru….)  Why do you try so hard to write us out of existence? Who leant you the air brush, Joe bloody Stalin?

3)”The underlying reasons why the SP left are, apart from the independence question, similar to CG - the SWP entered the WSA and treated it as one of their infamous front organisations. Anyone remember the fun had when the SWP tried to stop Welsh Socialist Voice from getting off the ground? It led to the resignation of all the independents, CG and SP members from the editorial cmttee“ You are right! CG and the SP left for exactly the same reasons actually - you lost the vote on something! Welsh Socialist Voice is an interesting case in point, and shows the difference in attitude to democratic decisions between ourselves and yourselves. At the conference we agued against setting up what became Welsh Socialist Voice. I personally thought it was a bit premature for such a small organisation to produce a newspaper, and that it might be financially crippling. I was in favour of further developing the newsletter which was already being produced, with a view to eventually producing a paper. We lost the vote, but got involved in producing and writing for the paper despite this. The editorial committee had 2 SWP members, 2 non-aligned members, 1 CG and 1 SP. 1 non-aligned member resigned citing other commitments, (there was also geographical/logistical problems in terms of meetings to decide content - the internet wasn’t as prevalent as it is now). Then CG and the SP dropped out. But WSV was still produced! Who by? The remaining editorial committee - the majority of whom were SWP. Who wrote for SWV? Well quite a lot of it was done by SWP members actually. Which area sold the most copies? Newport - which had a very large SWP contingent. Don’t even try to lecture me about democratic decision making pal.

4)”To compare Respect in EnglandnWales with FW is nonsense and you know it. Respect in Wales has hardly set the world on fire, has it?” Again your narrow nationalism astounds me. RESPECT in Wales is small but growing,  The vote in the election was miniscule, but come on, FW wasn’t much better - not that dissimilar to the old WSA in fact. We also picked up a sizeable vote when we stood in a council by-election in Neath. But to talk of FW in the same terms as RESPECT as an entity is to have the FW tail Wagging a growing RESPECT pup.

5)”It'd be interesting to know how RESPECT can do this more successfully than the WSA.” Its doing it with a lot less internal wrangling for a start! And reaching into areas that the WSA was beginning to, before its collapse, via the anti war movement and the radicalisation of some sections of the Muslim communities as well as working around strikes and any other issues that crop up in working class communities. In fact, the way that the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.


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## chilango (Sep 19, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> As an ex SWP member I unreservedly and humbly apologise for once being a student.However I am Scottish and free of English taint.
> Can you explain what's wrong with being a student and English?Oh and by the way I know loads of Welsh SWP members.



Nowt.

Just that people who are not from Wales and are based at the UofW are _not likely_ to be the most credible in an arguemnet about the national question.


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## chilango (Sep 19, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
> But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway.



Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise.

When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales (  ) *they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh*.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth.

That is ignorance, plain and simple.


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## chilango (Sep 19, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> I disagree with those who criticise the SWP for being mainly English ex-students. They also have some good Welsh working-class activists, e.g. in Neath, Blackwood and Cwmbran. But, when push came to shove, these comrades too opted for "internationalism" over "provincialism" (to quote Udo at his most revealing).




There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists.

BUt its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not.

Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.


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## nwnm (Sep 19, 2005)

Originally Posted by osterberg 
They have produced bilingual stuff for colleges with bilingual policies.
But anyway why bother?All Welsh speakers can read English anyway. 

Chilango said “Only cos they aren´t allowed to put posters up otherwise. When i was an SWP student organiser in Wales  they never produced a single piece of publicity in Welsh.(only what i translated myself) Despite trying to set up branches in places like Neath and Aberystwyth. That is ignorance, plain and simple. There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists. But its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not. Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.”

How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t, ( we had leaflets and advertised our meetings in Welsh as well as posters in the colleges. And lets not forget not all the colleges we were active in even implemented their bilingual policies….), you can’t have it both ways mate! We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one! (We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon).How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London. There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of  working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’  you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem. Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge  for you. As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects  for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!


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## chilango (Sep 19, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> How many times can you contradict yourself in one day and still expect to be taken seriously? We either had publicity in Welsh or we didn’t,



No contradiction. We didn´t.




> We didn’t ‘try’ to set up a branch in Neath we have one!



Okay. 



> (We hope to relaunch one in Aber soon)



Really?  



> .How can you whinge about translating stuff? Doh….aren’t organisers supposed to erm organise things then? Presumably you wanted to be spoon fed publicity from London.



Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use.

London can print stuff cheaper than me?

If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?



> There’s not much point whingeing about the lack of  working class cred of the ’leading cadre’, as you claim to have been an ’SWP student organiser in Wales’  you would have been part of that cadre, and therefore part of the problem.




Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique.

The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?



> Sounds like ’engaging’ with tippex’n’typewriters was a major challenge  for you.



Er....no. but nevermind.



> As far as the SWP goes, its amazing that a thread that could be focussing on prospects  for the left if Forward Wales does collapse turns into another lets rant about the SWP session. We must be ’reaching the parts other beers can’t’ otherwise you wouldn’t spend so much time slagging us off!



The SWP are very relevent here as a major reason why there isn´t a a "Welsh Left" for the reasons debated above.

But keep to your wishful thinking if you like, and fail to learn from your organisations history and we´ll see what happens to your loyalty in a few years time...


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## niclas (Sep 19, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> the old Socialist Alliance in England got its only elected councillor in Sheffield. He is now of course a RESPECT Councillor.



I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit?  ) wall.

This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.

It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).


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## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a "nationalist organisation". He (and I say this because his manner reminds me of a certain individual in Swansea SWP) may think he can misrepresent CG but this kind of name calling doesn't do much for his attempts to big up RESPECT's credentials as the inclusive party of the left.
> 
> It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).



 I don't want to take sides in this little spat but I saw this on the IRSP website(CG's is 'under construction')

 'Cymru Goch was formed in 1987 and fights for a _Free_ Socialist _Wales_. Only the workers of Wales can free themselves from this joke called British democracy. '(my italics)
http://www.irsm.org/general/comrades/cymrugoch/

That sounds like a nationalist organisation to me.I don't know much about CG so I'm happy to be enlightened.

What happened at the Galloway meeting re Leanne Wood?I'm afraid I missed it.

 Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
 It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales.

 Oh, I would be very surprised if chilango was ever an 'SWP student organiser'.Perhaps he just staggered past a Socialist Worker sale at uni 30 years ago.


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## nwnm (Sep 20, 2005)

Chilango, you still claim we didn’t produce publicity material in Welsh, yet here’s GavinB in this very same thread, “They once did the opposite - and printed a load of stuff in Welsh to go to Newport, despite the town having some of the lowest levels of welsh speaking in the whole country. They were told by local members, but thought they knew better apparently.” Sounds like a good reason for getting people to do it locally eh?

You say “Hmm. London send me hundreds of posters that i can´t use. London can print stuff cheaper than me? If all organisers were just making their own publicity than fine, happily "spoonfeed" me stuff in english but won´t bother doing stuff in Welsh?” I hate to disillusion you further but all organisers do produce their own publicity. London printing prices cheaper than here? I don’t think so! 

You go on to say “Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique. The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?” Sounds like something from a parallel universe more like! The SWP has never employed organisers on a on a college by college basis. You obviously think we are made of money. When exactly was this dream time you were living in?

Niclas wrote, “I think you'll find it's Preston, but what the hell... there's only so many times I want to bang my head against a brick (shurely Brit?) wall.” You got me bang to writes on that one guv - a slip of the keypads; or it could be the shape of things to come 

He Also wrote of RESPECT, “It's only inclusive of the left (and quite a few people not on the left) as long as they don't believe in independence for Wales (remember Galloway's meeting in Cardiff re Leanne Wood?).” Yet heres a quote from the John Marek - the guy you hitched your wagon to in Forward Wales, “On the left you have Plaid Cymru, but they have the aim of independence which denies them mass appeal….but there are more important matters to worry about. Defence of the public services is a key issue. We want to increase control over our health services and utilities” Or on the SSP “Their a pro independence party but we don’t take that view.”
On that programmatic basis YOU could join RESPECT!

Niclas also complained, “This moved on from being a thread about FW because this SWPer called CG a ‘nationalist organisation’” judging by your replies to my posts he’s got a point!


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## niclas (Sep 20, 2005)

*A house built on sand*

I see you're avoiding the question re Galloway and Leanne Wood - he said there was no place in Respect for people who supported Welsh independence (a policy made with the full consultation for which Galloway is famous).

 That's why I think the problems of internal democracy facing FW are likely to be mirrored by Respect further down the line...


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## nwnm (Sep 20, 2005)

*a house built WITH sand (and cement and water....)*

Actually Leanne asked for RESPECT not to stand in Wales because Plaid Cymru were a socialist organisation, and Galloway countered by pointing out they were a nationalist organisation, and true he did rail against their position on independence. But RESPECT (like the WSA, before it) has not got a position on independence. As John Marek put it - there are more important things to worry about. 

In terms of the lack or otherwise of internal democracy in FW niclas, Cymru Goch is not exactly blameless in this. CG went along with a constitution which did not allow other political organisations to affiliate - unlike the SSP or RESPECT. In doing so you have left yourselves in the same position as the clandestine groups which used to operate within Arthur Scargill's Socialist Labour Party. A position for which you were even prepared to drop the independence 'principle' which led you to break from the WSA, after the only conference where CG made their independence motion go to a vote (and lost; at previous conferences you always withdrew your motion after debating it in the interests of 'unity').


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

Glamorgan uni had a rep???

Where?

I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all


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## steeplejack (Sep 20, 2005)

The student body at Glamorgan is just about the most politically apathetic and disinterested that I've ever encountered.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

True, dont see a problem with that though.Do you believe they should be obliged to be politically motivated just becuase they are students.
Many of them are so busy working their backsides off to keep themselves while in uni they dont have the time nor the incination to do anything else. They are there to study after all, not become campaigners if they dont want to be


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## steeplejack (Sep 20, 2005)

I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.

It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?


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## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Glamorgan uni had a rep???
> 
> Where?
> 
> I go to Glamorgan and had seen NOTHING about any of this advertised there at all


 Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

steeplejack said:
			
		

> I'm well aware of all that and no, they are under no obligation to be active.
> 
> It was just my observation. Are you always this arsy with people?


Not being arsey at all. Yu seemed to be slating Glamorgan students for being 'apathetic' Im just asking whether you think that they should be polictically motivated since you seem to see it as a negative trait they they arent interested.
I;d say the student body at glamorgan are also likely to be one of the most financially disadvataged student bodies in the country too and I think that makes a MASSIVE difference as to how they have to spend their time when not in uni


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## steeplejack (Sep 20, 2005)

I was observing my own experience of them. I didn't offer a value judgement either way.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

Apathatic and disinterested would seem pretty judgemental. Maybe they simply havent got the time to get involved in political argiung in the same way others do.
What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Presumably chilango refers to the dim and distant past ( or the dark corners of his fevered imagination).



Possibly, if they did I;d love to know about it


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## steeplejack (Sep 20, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> What exactly is your experience of them from which you base your observations?



None of your business.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

so why make claims about the 'glamorgan student body'  on a BB if you arent going to reveal what you base your observations on.
It makes you look laughable quite frankly. If anyone else posted stuff up here without being asked to quanify their opinion they'd be laughed at. what makes you think youre exempt?


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## steeplejack (Sep 20, 2005)

I'm not remotely interested in your personal opinion of me.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Sep 20, 2005)

LOLITTY LOL
Then I hope you'll understand how nobody can take your opinion of the Glamorgan student body seriously either


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

Oh dear.

If you don´t like what is said call it lies.

..and you wonder why so many people hate the SWP.  

FYI, I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s. If the SWP have any members left from back then (admittedly a tall order given its turnover)  they´ll remember me (albeit not too fondly! as I was witness to some disgraceful behaviour...I´ll reminicse if you like  ) The SWSS branch was about 20 strong (active rather than paper), Glamorgan had an active (though smaller) SWSS group too, but then this was back during a period of rapid growth for the SWP (the "upturn").

Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore? you must be in a bad way if organisers are expected to produce these themselves these days, but then I did hear a rumour that the printshop (owned, staffed and run by the SWP so presumably preferable to use than local comercial printers?) was closing...


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## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Oh dear.
> 
> If you don´t like what is said call it lies.
> 
> ...


I don't remember you being in the SWP in the early 90's.And I'm not an SWP member anymore.


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I don't remember you being in the SWP in the early 90's.And I'm not an SWP member.



So how would you remember me then?

Ask me a question for verification if you like.


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## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

Forget I ever said anything.


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

....removed.....


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## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

Damn!Didn't edit fast enough.
Your writing style and views are very like this idiot I know and I thought you might be him.And I can't stand him.
My humblest apologies.


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## nwnm (Sep 20, 2005)

chilango -

"If you don´t like what is said call it lies." More like, if you don't like bullshit complain about the smell  


sorry mate - I was around at the time and haven't got a clue who you are or what you are talking about!

"I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s." In other words you were a student who drifted in and out of SWSS briefly. We would never be pompous enough to bestow the title organiser on any one member who happened to be at college.

"Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore?" Yes, but we are not just a 'London' based group. We flogged our old printer and warehouse and now have swanky new offices instead, (and because of advances in printing its cheaper to get other people to do it - and less time consuming)

LilMissHissyFit - Fear not! As we will be coming to a college near you! OK, we'll be doing stuff at uni of Glam. Due to some really successful stalls there at the end of the last academic year. PM me if you would like to know what we are up to and when, and I'll keep you informed


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Damn!Didn't edit fast enough.
> Your writing style and views are very like this idiot I know and I thought you might be him.And I can't stand him.
> My humblest apologies.




Thats okay.

Was he around back then too?...I might remember him!


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

> sorry mate - I was around at the time and haven't got a clue who you are or what you are talking about!



Well you can´t have been active then.

Were you at any demos, meetings protests etc in the early to mid 90s?

If so you´ll almost certainly remember who I am. 

As I said -  how do you want me to prove this? 



> "I was a student organiser in a college of the UofW (not paid obviously) in the early 90s." In other words you were a student who drifted in and out of SWSS briefly. We would never be pompous enough to bestow the title organiser on any one member who happened to be at college.



What title would you use then?

The points made still apply.





> "Do the SWP not centrally produce posters for London demos, campaigns, Marxism etc. anymore?" Yes, but we are not just a 'London' based group. We flogged our old printer and warehouse and now have swanky new offices instead, (and because of advances in printing its cheaper to get other people to do it - and less time consuming)



Okay. Times have changed then.


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

Incidentally, if anyone wants to keep the thread alive re the chances of a "Welsh Left" and the relationship between the various groups and the national question, I´d be interested...

you can always PM me about who I am and whether you you remember me if you feel the need.


----------



## osterberg (Sep 20, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Thats okay.
> 
> Was he around back then too?...I might remember him!


You wouldn't want to remember him.

Again,I'm very sorry.


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## nwnm (Sep 20, 2005)

"Were you at any demos, meetings protests etc in the early to mid 90s?
If so you´ll almost certainly remember who I am." I probably helped organise most of them and still don't have the foggiest who you are

"As I said - how do you want me to prove this?" Just PM your name to me - I'm hardly going to send the boys round  Besides this is probably getting pretty tedious for anyone who wanted to follow the original thread.

"The points made still apply." You didn't make any except to say you witnessed some disgraceful behaviour. In my experience thats WHY people go to college  

I must admit the human sacrifices, orgies complete with vodka jelly with added coke and the ritual Tony Cliff deification poem wore a bit thin after a while   How did it go.... 'Oh Cliff! Cliff! oh oasis in the desert! Oh brightest Star in the night sky! Oh how we Worship Thee! Oh everlasting dialectician!Oh jewel in all our crowns! We are not worthy to float in the toilet bowl in which you defecate!' This had to be sung to the tune of 'The Internationale'. Oh hang on a minute - I'm getting mixed up with Gerry Healey and the WRP


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## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

nwnmI must admit the human sacrifices said:


> So you knew Dafydd too.....


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## nwnm (Sep 20, 2005)

OMG otherwise known as Mad dav


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> OMG otherwise known as Mad dav



The very same.

Temple in his house. Yoghurt for suncream etc.


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## nwnm (Sep 25, 2005)

seriously though, a visit to this link gives you an idea of how much CG tried to bury their politics whilst in FW - 
http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Politics&F=1&id=6401 

I'll cut and paste a snippett here. Whilst it was an obvious attempt at a press whitch-hunt, and the terrorism stuff is all tabloid bollocks, denying having anything to do CG is hardly a position of principle for one of its more senior members is it?


‘Marek man denies terror link 
11/4/2003
Dr John Marek's election running mate Marc Jones this week denied he had any association with an organisation supporting terrorism.

Earlier this week the Wrexham Evening Leader revealed Marc Jones, who is standing as a John Marek Independent candidate for the Clwyd South seat in the Welsh Assembly, had been a member of Cymru Goch and that the group had published statements of solidarity to the Irish Republican Socialist Party (IRSP) which has links to the terrorist group the Irish National Liberation Army. 

Later this week Mr Jones maintained he had disassociated himself from Cymru Goch years ago. Mr Jones said: "I am no longer involved with Cymru Goch." '


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Later this week Mr Jones maintained he had disassociated himself from Cymru Goch years ago. Mr Jones said: "I am no longer involved with Cymru Goch." '


Out of curiousity how do you know this statement is untrue?


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## nwnm (Sep 25, 2005)

the claim to have resigned CG years ago is a bit of an overstatement.

In January 2002 he was the CG representative on the editorial board of Welsh Socialist Voice, he walked out of the WSA (with the rest of CG) in May 2002, and FW was set up in November 2003. Even being generous and pretending CG dissolved after leaving the WSA (which they didn't) would give you 18 months - but not years.... I think thats called poetic licence.


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> the claim to have resigned CG years ago is a bit of an overstatement.
> 
> In January 2002 he was the CG representative on the editorial board of Welsh Socialist Voice, he walked out of the WSA (with the rest of CG) in May 2002, and FW was set up in November 2003. Even being generous and pretending CG dissolved after leaving the WSA (which they didn't) would give you 18 months - but not years.... I think thats called poetic licence.


So its not evidence of CG burying their politics but a possible 'dissembling' by one probably ex-member. Not saying you are wrong but this isn't proof of anything either way. Besides maybe he left CG soon after May 2002 which would make it years.
How do you know CG didn't dissolve when FW was set up? I can't find any evidence of their continuing existence. Again not saying you are wrong but its not beyond possibility that CG did dissolve if only for the practical reasons of their members working for another political project in FW. A small group would find it hard to keep going under those circumstances.


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 25, 2005)

When 'Forward Wales' winds up, maybe they'll let Marek rejoin the Labour Party?


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## nwnm (Sep 25, 2005)

Even allowing for this, highly unlikely scenario, would make it a couple of years  from the press article I cut and pasted but not years as in  - when was the last time england won the world cup?  Now theres an example of poetic licence V poetic justice  

I think CG did dissolve formally as a 'public' organisation (i.e. no magazine, aside from the slightly boader Seren,) but carried on in the way some of the more clandestine groups in Scargill's SLP did (or even the entrist groups in the Labour Party). The thing that would have kept them going would have been pushing for independence to become the policy of FW (and changing the name of the organisation). Again, in this thread, independence has been flagged up as a major bone of contention - as it was in the WSA. 'Formally' dissolving their organisation was seen as a price worth paying for keeping out what they describe as the 'Brit Left'.


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Even allowing for this, highly unlikely scenario, would make it a couple of years  from the press article I cut and pasted but not years as in  - when was the last time england won the world cup?  Now theres an example of poetic licence V poetic justice
> 
> I think CG did dissolve formally as a 'public' organisation (i.e. no magazine, aside from the slightly boader Seren,) but carried on in the way some of the more clandestine groups in Scargill's SLP did (or even the entrist groups in the Labour Party). The thing that would have kept them going would have been pushing for independence to become the policy of FW (and changing the name of the organisation). Again, in this thread, independence has been flagged up as a major bone of contention - as it was in the WSA. 'Formally' dissolving their organisation was seen as a price worth paying for keeping out what they describe as the 'Brit Left'.


Hmm thats the problem with accusing a group of being clandestine...by its nature evidence is a problem. Are you saying you have some inside information that they continued as a 'disciplined' group or just an assumption?  It'll be interesting to see if a CG or similar re-emerges now that FW is going down the pan.


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## nwnm (Sep 25, 2005)

"we went to the pub at lunchtime (not a walk out) and just never made it back!" 

"Are you saying you have some inside information that they continued as a 'disciplined' group or just an assumption?"

I think judging by the first quote (from niclas) the words 'disciplined' and 'Cymru Goch' do not sit together at all well 

I think I will be interested in what happens to both sides from the Forward Wales experiment


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## lewislewis (Sep 27, 2005)

One consolation for Forward Wales is that they achieved alot more than Respect, LOL.


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## nwnm (Sep 27, 2005)

I can see the 'echo' headline now - "Tail Wags Dog - Shock!"


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## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

*strictly speaking*

Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the  FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 28, 2005)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the  FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..


If you've got some inside info why don't you spill the beans? Why so coy?


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> If you've got some inside info why don't you spill the beans? Why so coy?



What's your interest?


----------



## jannerboyuk (Sep 28, 2005)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> What's your interest?


Me? I'm MI5 obviously.


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## osterberg (Sep 28, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> One consolation for Forward Wales is that they achieved alot more than Respect, LOL.


 They did indeed.
A tiny number of votes rather than a miniscule number of votes.
A real acheivement


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Me? I'm MI5 obviously.



Ok, you can crack jokes too, you made me laugh.

Back to the point. Ive looked at your web pages, so you must know who seren is then? Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren? Along with billy no mates mr anorak maurice.
What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline and it seems like these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis and they don't seem to like other people having their opinions which are different to theirs so what do they do? They leave and set up a story rubbishing the party that they hid behind when in reality they had their own agenda right from the start.


----------



## jannerboyuk (Sep 28, 2005)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> Ok, you can crack jokes too, you made me laugh.
> 
> Back to the point. Ive looked at your web pages, so you must know who seren is then? Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren? Along with billy no mates mr anorak maurice.
> What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline and it seems like these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis and they don't seem to like other people having their opinions which are different to theirs so what do they do? They leave and set up a story rubbishing the party that they hid behind when in reality they had their own agenda right from the start.


It wasn't meant as a joke.
I know of Seren which as i understand it is now a blog and nothing more.
I've no idea who runs Seren and i've never met Marc Jones and only know of him as someone who was involved in Cymru Goch.
Its no point making personal comments about people I don't know.
I don't care about your interest in this or anything else but you hinted at some inside information but that was obviously misleading to say the least.
If you are so keen to name names, why don't you reveal your own name.
Jeff Baxter


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> It wasn't meant as a joke.
> I know of Seren which as i understand it is now a blog and nothing more.
> I've no idea who runs Seren and i've never met Marc Jones and only know of him as someone who was involved in Cymru Goch.
> Its no point making personal comments about people I don't know.
> ...



If you didn't care about my interest in this or anything else then why reply to my first comment? You obviously thought I had inside information, I didn't say I had inside information, so it wasn't mis-leading. What I did say was
Quote:
Now that these so called 'activists' have left FW , and I think the door was left open for them to walk, does that mean that the likes of Marc Jones and Maurice - that 'web secretary genius' will go back to Cymru Goch? is it still operating? they seem to be having problems with their web site, I hope what ever they do they don't let the FW ex-web sec. get his hands on it..end of Quote.
As far as naming names, my name is Clare Jones, does that make any difference to your life? 
The point I am making is: if seren is going to go on record as saying a political party is going down the pan, then surely the response they are going to get is going to be a mixed bag. You will have those who agree and those who don't. It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as it will not affect my life at all. But all I asked you was did you know WHO seren was. I was interested because you made a comment on the site. Marc Jones seems to have got himself a bit of a reputation and all I am doing is asking questions and adding what I already know because it is already public knowledge. 
And sorry for mistaking your sarcastic comment as a Joke, there was me thinking I was talking to a man with a personality.


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## jannerboyuk (Sep 28, 2005)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> If you didn't care about my interest in this or anything else then why reply to my first comment? You obviously thought I had inside information, I didn't say I had inside information, so it wasn't mis-leading. *I suppose "I think the door was left open for them to walk" "in reality they had their own agenda right from the start" was the result of telepathy not inside information. Sure.*
> As far as naming names, my name is Clare Jones, does that make any difference to your life? *Fine. I just prefer it when people put a name to an opinion rather hiding behind anonymity, especially when they are naming other people.*
> It doesn't matter to me one way or the other, as it will not affect my life at all. But all I asked you was did you know WHO seren was. *Of course it matters enough to you add a little bile to the mix: "these two blokes have an identity issue-crisis" "so called 'activists'" "billy no mates mr anorak maurice". Very nice. It matters enough to you to register for this website in order to comment on the issue. And you asked me "Am I right in saying that Marc Jones runs seren?" and i answered it.*


Nice try at the old disinterested impartial method but not too convincing i'm afraid. 3/10 at best. What job do you do Mr Marek's office again?
All the best
Mr John Smith


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Nice try at the old disinterested impartial method but not too convincing i'm afraid. 3/10 at best. What job do you do Mr Marek's office again?
> All the best
> Mr John Smith



Oh dear! Have I upset you? You are obviously mis-informed my friend. Is that the best you can come up with?  You obviously don't like it when people get close to the truth, perhaps I touched a raw nerve. 
I got my information from contacts just like seren did and probably, a lot of other people who just want to know the truth. Don't you like the truth? or do you just like the spin?
Telepathy? Well maybe I have that power I am so touched that you have put me on that pedestal or maybe its  just having more reliable contacts and doing my homework a little more efficiently. A job in Marek's office? I wish, because I ve heard the money can be quite good but then again I would have to give up my present job which is to chase up stories like the topic in question. Consequences, that's what its all about, isn't it Jeff, John, or jannerboyuk. Convincing? Oh I know I am, because what I set out to achieve I have already achieved. I got the information from other sources who like you played right into my hands. Its all about playing the game. 
The FW story was a non starter, fell at the first hurdle, never made first base. I guess by now you will realise, that when I said, "What is my interest? well, I like reading between the lines and getting the real story behind the headline" That is literally what I meant. Don't you ask yourself, why after seren openly supporting FW, all of a sudden  they don't because these activists have left? Don't you want to know why? Don't you want to know who these activists are? don't you want to know why , why why and why? There is always a story within a story. Its a shame you didn't spot it, or maybe you didn't want to.
By the way Jeff we have spoken on many topics before, the funny thing is, you just didn't know it..


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## nwnm (Sep 28, 2005)

Hmmm.... interesting line of enquiry Clare. I find it interesting that niclas, the originator of this post won't come out to play anymore..... I've got a good mind to ring his doorbell and run away  but then he's probably beaten me to it - last seen heading towards Wrexham soccer ground.

It is sad about the state of Wrexham FC, but next to Iraq, social justice, human rights, etc, football doesn't register as a high priority to me. Marek was popular enough to defeat the offical Labour Candidate in the Assembly elections Standing as an independent. Along with the Blaenau Gwent result and George Galloway in the General election (and the other high RESPECT votes), and the SSP results in the scottish parliament, these stands as high water marks in terms of disillusionment with New Labour.

The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?


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## chilango (Sep 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?



Good, back to the point.

a) you missed out "republican/nationalist/seperatist" vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?

b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?

c) "anti-war" vote? is there such athing? how sustainable is it?


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Hmmm.... interesting line of enquiry Clare. I find it interesting that niclas, the originator of this post won't come out to play anymore..... I've got a good mind to ring his doorbell and run away  but then he's probably beaten me to it - last seen heading towards Wrexham soccer ground.
> 
> It is sad about the state of Wrexham FC, but next to Iraq, social justice, human rights, etc, football doesn't register as a high priority to me. Marek was popular enough to defeat the offical Labour Candidate in the Assembly elections Standing as an independent. Along with the Blaenau Gwent result and George Galloway in the General election (and the other high RESPECT votes), and the SSP results in the scottish parliament, these stands as high water marks in terms of disillusionment with New Labour.
> 
> The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?



At last, someone with something constructive to say..Your latter point, I cannot answer that, as can anyone else, I do not think any of the parties are ready for any kind of merge. I think they may try to work together but only if each of them feel they can come out on top, that's politics. How far left would each party have to go if they did merge? what would their policies be and how many changes would they be willing to make? who would be their leader/s? It would be very interesting to know if any of these parties have thought about it, but I probably already know the answer to that as will you. I think in a couple of years its a real possibility so I guess we will have to continue watching that space. 
Niclas, Ah yes- the house built on sand- Tell me when you rang his doorbell and ran away was his house made of glass? He really shouldn't go throwing stones now should he...and yes he probably has gone off to Wrexham football ground but I think he was always the last kid picked for a game of footie and was probably made to go fetch the ball when it got kicked over someone's fence...  Seriously though, yes there are more important issues. Like the EColi outbreak, The African famine, child poverty and slavery, George Bush's continual destruction of the Ozone layer. So many real issues which could take up a lot of time discussing, so please, if we agree, lets just smiley face it.


----------



## nwnm (Sep 28, 2005)

chilango said - 
"a) you missed out 'republican/nationalist/seperatist' vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?

b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?

c) 'anti-war' vote? is there such athing? how sustainable is it?"

To the first point I would say a probable yes as long as it was not made a point of principle for any formation. The problem here is that CG turn it into a point of principle whenever they decide to leave; which kind of rules them out of any genuine left unity unless they change their spots....

To your second point - you are quite right! RESPECT did approach the Greens to run a united electoral campaign - but they refused to entertain the idea. That was when RESPECT was first set up. The Greens also thought they would get an MP in Brighton to add to their MEP. This did not materialise, and RESPECT came out the stronger in the General Election. Hopefully this might open the door to some sort of electoral agreements in the future.

To your 3rd point - there is definately an anti-war vote. Unfortunately (and undeservedly) I think the Lib Dems have been the main beneficiaries of this. Their claims to be to the left of New Labour must surely decline now that they are running a number of councils around the UK in coalition with the Tories....

socialistcelt said 
" I do not think any of the parties are ready for any kind of merge. I think they may try to work together but only if each of them feel they can come out on top, that's politics. How far left would each party have to go if they did merge? what would their policies be and how many changes would they be willing to make? who would be their leader/s? It would be very interesting to know if any of these parties have thought about it, but I probably already know the answer to that as will you. I think in a couple of years its a real possibility so I guess we will have to continue watching that space."

I agree. any merger would definately take time, and might not happen at all. There are ways in which the parties could work together hypothetically. You could have some form of electoral alliance where for example FW, the Greens and RESPECT stand under one name for assembly elections, Lets take 'Red Green and Radical' just as an example. Each party gets mentioned on the election material (so nobody forfeits their 'brand' name) So no one party is seen to gain at the expense of the other. The other alternative is a non aggression pact (not standing against each other). It is interesting to note however the the Left Party in Germany sorted itself out very quickly with a merger of the PDS and WASG organisations. So who knows? I'm all smileys me


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> chilango said -
> "a) you missed out 'republican/nationalist/seperatist' vote. Would you include them as the FW project tried?
> 
> b) the green vote already has a credible Party. how would you present an alternative to the Green Party to these voters?
> ...



Oh excellent, it looks like you and me can have some grand debates. But right now, after a long day at being controversial I am off to the planet zzzz.
Hope to catch up tomorrow maybe..


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 29, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> They did indeed.
> A tiny number of votes rather than a miniscule number of votes.
> A real acheivement



yeah...hence the clearly visible 'LOL' after the sentence.

As for the Left Party in Germany, they don't organise as a sect like all the left groups in the UK, they consist mainly of the Democratic Socialists who used to be the ruling Communist Party in East Germany and are now a mainstream 'left-of-centre' party.


----------



## lewislewis (Sep 29, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> The pertinent point is how does the left find the best way of uniting a core socialist/green/anti-war vote, and turn it into the sort of results the Left Party acheived in Germany?



By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?


----------



## niclas (Sep 29, 2005)

Looks like I've missed all the fun...

Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.

Let's analyse why Cllr Dave Bithell resigned from FW, why the party's general election candidate in Wrexham won't be renewing her membership along with many other good activists, why the website still isn't up and running after five months, why the FW National Council decided to change the party's name unconstitutionally without reference to the membership and why FW stood a candidate in a constituency where they had no members, i.e. the marginal seat of Cardiff North.

 Questions of interest to the average political analyst, I'd imagine. 

Perhaps that's why there was a need for personal attacks and attempts at "outing" - in order to try to distract attention from the original story. It's obviously not enough that someone loses their job, is it Clare?


----------



## socialistcelt (Sep 29, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Looks like I've missed all the fun...
> 
> Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.
> 
> ...



Oh do move on. Get a life.


----------



## nwnm (Sep 30, 2005)

"By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?" I'd take this more seriously if you weren't sitting in your armchair old son....

Hey niclas maybe socialistcelt might want to analyse why CG voted themselves 'out of existance' to join FW. Maybe if you have a relaunch you can call yourselves 'Dinosaur Junior', (Just don't go into the music bizz). Extinction suits you


----------



## osterberg (Sep 30, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?


 So you'll be joining RESPECT then?


----------



## osterberg (Sep 30, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Looks like I've missed all the fun...
> 
> Leaving aside the "we know where you live" stuff, perhaps Clare - who describes herself elsewhere as a political analyst - would like to return to the original thread.
> 
> ...


 Perhaps these are questions you should ask John Marek.
It seems he used FW as his own vehicle for his own ends.
He bankrolled it so he called the shots and did what he liked with it.
Perhaps these 'good activists' of which you speak should join RESPECT if they want a viable left alternative to New Labour.
It might not be perfect but at least there are some working class voters who have actually heard of it unlike FW.
And I know your going to slag it off and whinge about some conference resolution that was passed or something incredibly stupid that Galloway said.
And you'll moan about it being an 'SWP' front.
 The way to change all that is to join it.Unlike the Labour Party , Respect does listen to its membership who they rely on for activity and funding (sneer if you must  ).
 And if you think there's too many SWP members join and recruit non-SWP members to swamp them with.I'm sure the swappies won't object.
Seriously though,Respect is the only realistic left alternative to New Labour that we've got.
Sometimes you have to play with the hand your dealt.
And its better than 'sitting on the sidelines'.


----------



## Karac (Sep 30, 2005)

Nah
"Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales."


----------



## osterberg (Sep 30, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Nah
> "Also it seems to me that Respect in Wales isn't worth arguing about as it doesn't really exist here.
> It's a small narrow organisation mainly comprised of the SWP with Galloway as its figurehead which targets muslim communities in the English Midlands and the East-End of London who are angry(quite rightly)about the war.
> It has very little appeal to the working class in the rest of the UK.Especially not in Wales."


Hey,I changed my mind. 
I'm always doing that.Sorry


----------



## boblot79 (Oct 1, 2005)

I know someone who is in FW, Im gonna ask him what's going on. This seems to be a hot topic.


----------



## jannerboyuk (Oct 2, 2005)

boblot79 said:
			
		

> I know someone who is in FW, Im gonna ask him what's going on. This seems to be a hot topic.


Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 2, 2005)

"Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious." Yeah - then at least we'd know exactly what wasn't happenning in FW


----------



## jannerboyuk (Oct 2, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious." Yeah - then at least we'd know exactly what wasn't happenning in FW


As opposed to that bastion of fearless truth Socialist Worker   .


----------



## nwnm (Oct 2, 2005)

Lets see, Socialist Worker - The paper that 'broke' the Fallujah story, Launched the Defend Scargill Campaign when he was being whitch hunted by the Cook Report and Maxwell's Daily Mirror, Campaigned to get South African Trade Unionist Moses Mayekiso released from prison under Apartheid, and more recently has been raising support for the Gate Gourmet strike.

Weekly Worker - famous for putting pictures and writing articles about SWP members on its front page and naming names of anybody who happen to be at a political meeting they attend in their articles. This has led to one SWP member in a 'politically sensitive' job in London getting sacked to my knowledge. If this paper didn't exist MI5 would have to invent it. Maybe they should merge with 'Red Watch'


----------



## jannerboyuk (Oct 2, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Lets see, Socialist Worker - The paper that 'broke' the Fallujah story, Launched the Defend Scargill Campaign when he was being whitch hunted by the Cook Report and Maxwell's Daily Mirror, Campaigned to get South African Trade Unionist Moses Mayekiso released from prison under Apartheid, and more recently has been raising support for the Gate Gourmet strike.
> 
> Weekly Worker - famous for putting pictures and writing articles about SWP members on its front page and naming names of anybody who happen to be at a political meeting they attend in their articles. This has led to one SWP member in a 'politically sensitive' job in London getting sacked to my knowledge. If this paper didn't exist MI5 would have to invent it. Maybe they should merge with 'Red Watch'


Ahh the faith of the true believer - such a wonder to behold! Warms the cockles of my heart it does.


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## nwnm (Oct 2, 2005)

"Ahh the faith of the true believer - such a wonder to behold! Warms the cockles of my heart it does."

God bless yer guv'nor - I'll doff me cap t'yer!


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## boblot79 (Oct 2, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Surprised that Weekly Worker has not covered it yet. Curious.[/QUOTE
> 
> Wat has that got to do with me asking my mate. I don't know, you seem to be the person in the know, you tell everybody...Why..or better still seeing that the only conversation that this story is taking place is here, then does that not tell you something???
> By the way, my mate said there is no truth in it and it was started by some sad tossers who couldn't get their own way.If you know something different then tell all otherwise shut the fuck up you sad twat!!!


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## osterberg (Oct 3, 2005)

boblot79 said:
			
		

> jannerboyuk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 3, 2005)

boblot79 said:
			
		

> jannerboyuk said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nwnm (Oct 3, 2005)

"It is true that Seren don't say where they get thier info from.It would be nice to know." 

I think Mr jones interviewed himself  

Meanwhile back in the real world around around 350 people came to hear George Galloway speak this afternoon in Swansea University. There are now 130 members of RESPECT Students at Swansea.....


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 3, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "It is true that Seren don't say where they get thier info from.It would be nice to know."
> 
> I think Mr jones interviewed himself
> 
> Meanwhile back in the real world around around 350 people came to hear George Galloway speak this afternoon in Swansea University. There are now 130 members of RESPECT Students at Swansea.....


There's lovely! You'll be shocked to hear that i'm actually going to pay the £14 to see 'Gorgeous' George (now who used to call him that? Hmm...i'm sure it was a  compliment at the time  ) in Cardiff. Is the real world a nice place? I try not to go there too often.


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## nwnm (Oct 3, 2005)

"Is the real world a nice place? " Not this side of the revolution - but it does have its moments of fun and frivolity (I say this whilst blasting out "When the Revolution comes" by The Last Poets. The neighbours lurve me  )


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## boblot79 (Oct 4, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> boblot79 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 4, 2005)

This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.


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## boblot79 (Oct 4, 2005)

OTE=jannerboyuk]This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.[/QUOTE]


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 4, 2005)

This message is hidden because boblot79 is on your ignore list.


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## osterberg (Oct 4, 2005)

Ah! Mature adult behaviour.


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## boblot79 (Oct 4, 2005)

Does that mean jannerboyuk is not coming out to play with me any more???


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## nwnm (Oct 5, 2005)

does this mean that none of us get to read what jannerboyuk is saying?


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## osterberg (Oct 5, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> does this mean that none of us get to read what jannerboyuk is saying?


 
What a terrible loss.


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## boblot79 (Oct 5, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> What a terrible loss.



I feel it too. He's a  sad toss..I mean he's a sad loss..


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 5, 2005)

Why would you need him on your ignore list?  

The only person on mine was someone who sent me a PM getting very personal about my kids in a pretty unsavoury way.

Just interested like, you know to know your motivations Jannerboy?


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 5, 2005)

Yeah.... what LMHF said. Isn't the point of having someone on ignore that you *don't* respond to their posts, rather than posting "This message is hidden because...", which in all fairness, is a reply?


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## nwnm (Oct 5, 2005)

It might be nice to get this back on topic at some point - some of the discussion has been quite good/useful.


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 5, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Yeah.... what LMHF said. Isn't the point of having someone on ignore that you *don't* respond to their posts, rather than posting "This message is hidden because...", which in all fairness, is a reply?


Err...to make th point that you have felt the need to put someone on your ignore list? Petty maybe but then i'm not used to unprovoked personal attacks or being told to shut up because i'm not saying what the person wants to hear.


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 5, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Why would you need him on your ignore list?
> 
> The only person on mine was someone who sent me a PM getting very personal about my kids in a pretty unsavoury way.
> 
> Just interested like, you know to know your motivations Jannerboy?


Well it seems obvious that different people would have different breaking points and different levels of tolerance. But to me when the first post someone directs at me is full of unprovoked abuse i tend to want to not read what else they might be saying. I can see how that doesn't really match the horrible stuff you got but we are all different. I would point out that there is only 3 people on my ignore list so its not like i'm constantly ignoring people i just think my tolerance has been reduced (since i've been reading Urban75 funnily enough) and i can't be arsed with it anymore.


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 5, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> What a terrible loss.


Thanks for that


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 5, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Err...to make th point that you have felt the need to put someone on your ignore list? Petty maybe but then i'm not used to unprovoked personal attacks or being told to shut up because i'm not saying what the person wants to hear.



But isnt it just as petty to post 'this person is on your ignore list' as it is to abuse someone without cause


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## jannerboyuk (Oct 5, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> But isnt it just as petty to post 'this person is on your ignore list' as it is to abuse someone without cause


Errr...i said it was petty (maybe) but i don't think its the same as calling someone a sad twat for absolutely no reason. Again just my personal opinion. If you lot all think Boblot whatever is some great poster to have a debate with and that abuse is all just part of the rough and tumble of U75 debate then fine - enjoy yourselves. I just, from a personal, individual point of view rather not. And don't worry that is my final (edited) word on the matter. You can all get back to the topic at hand.


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## boblot79 (Oct 5, 2005)

*Jannerboywho????*

The reason I got a bit arsey with jannerboyuk was because all I said originally was "I know someone who is in FW, and I wiould ask him what has been going on"
I thought I was being helpful but Jannerboyuk then suggested something different which I didn't like. I thought this urban75 was all about freedom of speech, perhaps it is not for those who are sensitive  and obviously don't like it when someone has got the truth to a story which has caused a lot of interest some of which I found to be a bit one sided and weak especially from the people who originally posted this thread.
You know having a debate about an issue as controversial as this one is about not just expecting people to respect your opinion its about respecting other peoples opinion too and if you can't do that then you are truly ignorant. If you can't take it well don't give it out.
I don't give a toss whether I am on Jannerboy's list, Im not crying about it (sniff sniff) it is not earth shattering news.    My life is not over   
Jannerboy you are .......Jannerboywho?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 5, 2005)

and after just 36 posts you and nwnm seem to think its fine to have your one track converations and you insult people becuase you dont like something theyve said.
You wont last too long here like that


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## boblot79 (Oct 5, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> and after just 36 posts you and nwnm seem to think its fine to have your one track converations and you insult people becuase you dont like something theyve said.
> You wont last too long here like that



Yes yes whatever. I ve read some of your posts, littlemisshissyfit, very apt name. There seems to be a lot of that about, but hey lets not argue over something pointless. You made your point and so did I,  now please can we move on and discuss something else as I really didn't intend to get into this thread at all, I just saw FW and made the connection with my mate. I m beginning to wish I hadn't bothered. One track conversations seem to be catching. As far as the number of posts Ive made.. Did you never have a mere 36, Im a beginner, so what.
Don't you think this thread has run its course? all that is happening now is the cheap comments including mine so unless I get a good reason to reply again I think I will move on. I hope we can have a more amicable conversation some other time...


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## socialistcelt (Oct 5, 2005)

Hmmm not missed much here then have I?


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## nwnm (Oct 5, 2005)

No, but its nice to see you back in the playground again. boblot and jannerboy keep calling each other names and niclas keeps singin' "D'ya wanna be in my gang?", but nobody will join in with him. LMHF has told them all to shut up and I think the colonel's just gone to tell teacher. D'you fancy a game of marbles?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 6, 2005)

boblot79 said:
			
		

> Yes yes whatever. I ve read some of your posts, littlemisshissyfit, very apt name. There seems to be a lot of that about, but hey lets not argue over something pointless. You made your point and so did I,  now please can we move on and discuss something else as I really didn't intend to get into this thread at all, I just saw FW and made the connection with my mate. I m beginning to wish I hadn't bothered. One track conversations seem to be catching. As far as the number of posts Ive made.. Did you never have a mere 36, Im a beginner, so what.
> Don't you think this thread has run its course? all that is happening now is the cheap comments including mine so unless I get a good reason to reply again I think I will move on. I hope we can have a more amicable conversation some other time...


jjezeus yadda yadda you cant resist throwing another into the mix can you?  
. Moving on without insults might be nice,I think you'll find for the most part this forum is slighlty different to others on U75, there are lots of people who actually do know each other and who socialise together occasionally, that doesnt mean to say its cliquey, its not but insults for insults sake ( which you are ably displaying a liking for) just makes this forum feel really negative and thats where cliqueyness abounds in the 'Im not talking to him, got to insult/ignore' Thats why i pulled you and Jannerboy on it. Its needless and sometimes I see it and just do this FFS grow up  

If thats what youre here for then yeah bugger off, if like you say you arent just pack it in and discuss something else.  Join in a bit elsewhere too, get to know people who dont share issues on your narrow political agenda, tell us what your favourtite washing powder is or how much belly button fluff is in your manbag.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 6, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> No, but its nice to see you back in the playground again. boblot and jannerboy keep calling each other names and niclas keeps singin' "D'ya wanna be in my gang?", but nobody will join in with him. LMHF has told them all to shut up and I think the colonel's just gone to tell teacher. D'you fancy a game of marbles?


LOL exactamundo.
I;d rather a pint though


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## osterberg (Oct 6, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> It might be nice to get this back on topic at some point - some of the discussion has been quite good/useful.


Absolutely.The left in Wales(well in my little bit) is up shit creek and I'd like to know what people think we should do about.
 I don't give two flying ones if Boblot thinks Jannerboy's a twat.


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## osterberg (Oct 6, 2005)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Thanks for that


I was being sincere.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 6, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Absolutely.The left in Wales(well in my little bit) is up shit creek and I'd like to know what people think we should do about.
> I don't give two flying ones if Boblot thinks Jannerboy's a twat.



It may well be up shit creek but I dont think following Geogeous george galloways lead is going to get us anywhere. Using the old style Ron davieses of this world isnt going to do much good either? IMO both individuals have too much baggage following them around for it to be worthwhile being seriously associated with either. nobody's listening to them or their politics any more.
Its time for some fresh blood to emerge and new, relevant ideas whch dont centre too much on any one issue ( such as independence for wales etc) in order for the voting public to actually sit up and take notice


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## osterberg (Oct 6, 2005)

I'm not Galloway's biggest fan but thanks to him at least people have heard of Respect.As for fresh blood a lot of students joine respect at last weeks's fresher fairs which is a start.And LMHF is right about needing to move away from single issues.


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## boblot79 (Oct 6, 2005)

LMHF

Ok Mam. I promise to be a good boy and not to use insulting words anymore and I haven't got fluff in my mummy button because I m a very clean boy.    

oh yeah, apart from when I insult people. and then I m really naughty and deserve to be spanked by my mummy.


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## chilango (Oct 6, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> It may well be up shit creek but I dont think following Geogeous george galloways lead is going to get us anywhere. Using the old style Ron davieses of this world isnt going to do much good either? IMO both individuals have too much baggage following them around for it to be worthwhile being seriously associated with either. nobody's listening to them or their politics any more.
> Its time for some fresh blood to emerge and new, relevant ideas whch dont centre too much on any one issue ( such as independence for wales etc) in order for the voting public to actually sit up and take notice




Quite.

Neither FW or RESPECT are gonna do that tho`(they both have too many vested interests) so who is?


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## chilango (Oct 6, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I'm not Galloway's biggest fan but thanks to him at least people have heard of Respect.As for fresh blood a lot of students joine respect at last weeks's fresher fairs which is a start.




A false start?

Students joining things at freshers at freshers fair is not the same as building an independent woking class movement of struggle (sorry for the archaic terminology) and you should know that. 

To pretend otherwise is going to lead to tears (again and again)


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## osterberg (Oct 6, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> A false start?
> 
> Students joining things at freshers at freshers fair is not the same as building an independent woking class movement of struggle (sorry for the archaic terminology) and you should know that.
> 
> To pretend otherwise is going to lead to tears (again and again)


 I agree but what else is happenning?
What do you think we should do to bring about 'an independent working class movement'?


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## chilango (Oct 6, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> I agree but what else is happenning?
> What do you think we should do to bring about 'an independent working class movement'?



Well...I think that (broadly) the IWCA has the right approach and in Wales are numerous wc communities that still have enough of a senese of identity as a community to provide an arena for community based organising. I know that CG were keen on this before getting sidetracked into the WSA. Tips, landfills, opencast, factory closures etc.

...and yes I know the trditional left do organise around this, but I think with the wrong priorities - they tend to see these communities as potential recruits to their own organisation and cause rather than a cause and organisation of their own. 

maybe build community struggles, autonomy and selfconfidence and network these communities?

Flawed, of course, but a start?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 6, 2005)

boblot79 said:
			
		

> LMHF
> 
> Ok Mam. I promise to be a good boy and not to use insulting words anymore and I haven't got fluff in my mummy button because I m a very clean boy.
> 
> oh yeah, apart from when I insult people. and then I m really naughty and deserve to be spanked by my mummy.



*backs away trembling*


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## nwnm (Oct 6, 2005)

I’d like to thank everyone for getting this back on track. People know what I think if they’ve followed the thread, so I’ll try to be brief - 

LMHF Said, “I dont think following Geogeous george galloways lead is going to get us anywhere. Using the old style Ron davies’ of this world isn’t going to do much good either? IMO both individuals have too much baggage following them around for it to be worthwhile being seriously associated with either” But people probably said that about Keir Hardy, After all, before the transformation of the Labour Representation Committee into the Labour Party of old he was in the Liberals….

Chilango Said, “In Wales are numerous wc communities that still have enough of a senese of identity as a community to provide an arena for community based organising” I think you may be looking through rose tinted specs here. In wales a lot of working class communities hav had the guts ripped out of them and the old community spirit that used to be around is a bit like the ghost of Christmas passed. It has been replaced by Heroin addiction as there is no jobs and no future. Those left who still think collectively are going to be pretty isolated and you need to at least try to group these people together in some form of organisation, as well as trying to support whatever community campaigns come up

Yeah we need new blood, but there is also a massive crisis of expectation with labour supporters/members. I wouldn’t want to write them off. If you read my posts it will also be clear that I see movements such as RESPECT the SSP and FW as a part of the process of decomposition and recomposition of a new and vibrant left (like whats happening in Germany)


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 7, 2005)

Respect were elected in london on a 'race' ticket on the back of Blairs illegal war.
What on earth would anyone believe they had to offer the people of wales?


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## osterberg (Oct 7, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Respect were elected in london on a 'race' ticket on the back of Blairs illegal war.
> What on earth would anyone believe they had to offer the people of wales?


Respect would say they had this to offer.


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## osterberg (Oct 7, 2005)

chilango has a rosy view of working class communities . I know my neighbours enough to say hello but I wouldn't say I live in a community.
Real working class interaction and organisation is in the workplace.
Perhaps the welsh left should try to do something about the poor level of unionisation here.


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## socialistcelt (Oct 7, 2005)

Glad to see its back to business.


Well what have PC offered us- Independence-worked? No
Lab-Some good-Most bad-Same arrogance as the Tories-Experiments only good enough for us Welsh but not for the English.
Libs-Well umm errr   
Tories-well its all been about "follow the leader leader leader follow the leader leader leader- um and which leader would that be?"

So what are the alternatives. Parties like the Respect, SWP and FW have got good policies in place but need a little tweaking here and there for enough people to take them seriously. I don't think people are comfortable with far left politics so you will have to get rid of the "loony left" image which I think they have done but need to advertise that fact.  But I think soon they could be seen to be a real threat.

George Galloway and Ron Davies have stood out for different reasons (and lets keep it to politics). They both have solid political backgrounds as we all know. But they are not party hacks. And that is what makes a good politician. When they do stand up for people's rights as opposed to party policies. What happens then is that the party machine steps up to "spoil" their political profile.

What can George Galloway do for Wales? Well that depends on what he thinks Wales can do for him. I think his best bet would be to have talks with the existing Socialist parties here and see what happens. If he thinks he can be successful 'seriously' he will make his move early next year. (Only my opinion)

Ron Davies and FW. Well he has proved already what he can do of Wales. A lot of people want to see him come back, will he won't he? Ron compared to Rhodri well there is no comparison. TB has shown his contempt for RM just as he showed it for RD. Blair didn't want devolution in Wales and he has done all he can to make sure that so far it has struggled. But that could also be down to the incompetence of the Lab administration at the Assembly. It will also be interesting now to see what happens at the Assembly now that Lab have lost their majority. Will they be kicked out of office?


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## chilango (Oct 7, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> chilango has a rosy view of working class communities . I know my neighbours enough to say hello but I wouldn't say I live in a community.
> Real working class interaction and organisation is in the workplace.
> Perhaps the welsh left should try to do something about the poor level of unionisation here.



True enough.

But point a) The level of community in Wales is still higher than in most of England (in my experience anyway). The problems and decompositions mentioned above are of course true, but those of us involved in antiopencast etc can remember there´s enough left to make a start.

b) "flexible" labour, especially in South Wales, is making traditional workplace organising v difficult, temping, rapid job turnover, casual work, seasonal work etc. Doesnt mean i don´t agree, just that we have to look at asa many avenues as possible.


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## osterberg (Oct 7, 2005)

Well I've lived in a mining area in England as well as in Wales and I didn't see a great deal difference in 'community'.
 There may well have been a greater sense of community solidarity in the valleys when  the mining  and steel industries provided well paid jobs and  strong union organisations provided such social amenities as working men's institutes and miner's welfares.They installed a bit of local pride.
 All that is of course gone now.

Chilango said


> b) "flexible" labour, especially in South Wales, is making traditional workplace organising v difficult, temping, rapid job turnover, casual work, seasonal work etc. Doesnt mean i don´t agree, just that we have to look at asa many avenues as possible.



 That's true.There are many of these types of jobs.
There's also many workplaces like mine with permanent and not insecure jobs , relatively speaking of course.
Small to medium sized companies which came into being within  the last 20 years or so during a time when the trade union movement is to weak to unionise them (or be bothered , quite frankly ).And they employ a lot of people.The industrial estates in the valleys are full of such places.


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## chilango (Oct 7, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> That's true.There are many of these types of jobs.
> There's also many workplaces like mine with permanent and not insecure jobs , relatively speaking of course.
> Small to medium sized companies which came into being within  the last 20 years or so during a time when the trade union movement is to weak to unionise them (or be bothered , quite frankly ).And they employ a lot of people.The industrial estates in the valleys are full of such places.



Of course its not an either or situation, (I am a union rep, of sorts, myself as it happens and am currently struggling for unionising and recoginition in my workplace).

However I´d say community organising is a major priority that the left often overlooks - the BNP haven´t and have acheived a number of successes this way. More than RESPECT or FW have.


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## nwnm (Oct 7, 2005)

On the nature of temporary workers/call centres etc, its interesting to note that this is the area of fastest union growth now. Fastest growing unions at the moment are Unifi/Amicus in the banks/callcentres and PCS (both have also been involved in industrial action too) It has to be said that this is happening because the workforce feel an absolute need to do this (i.e. thinking 'enough is enough'), and no one can predict this.

Chilango, if you were around when you said you were, you can hardly castigate the SWP for not getting involved in community politics. Your time in the SWP would have roughly happened at the time of our involvement in the Cardiff 3 Campaign, the Mark Harris Truth and Justice Campaign and in organising the massive anti racist demonstration after the murder of Mohan Singh Kullar, (you are quite right to say we should get more involved in this when possible though). 

Yes the BNP have turned their hands to 'community politics' in their own divisive way with some terrible effects. But they have recently been forced back onto the defensive, and failed to win their targetted seats. They have no MP's/MEP's. Unfortunately the group largely responsible for doing this Unite Against Fascism are now facing a bit of a whitch hunt from - you've guessed it - New Labour and their 'allies' in the movement


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## Karac (Oct 7, 2005)

Fuck it.
Why not go independent.
Ireland took 70 years and now has a better living standard than we do.


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## nwnm (Oct 7, 2005)

Actually Ireland has been partitioned for 70 years or more....

And living standards in the south (where the term Celtic Tiger economy was first bandied about) and the North are now pretty abysmal. The reason in the North is obvious (divide and rule, and the decline of the ship building industry in western Europe). In the South it is related to reliance on 'new' industries (such as call centres), which were highly profitable  - but low paid - and also transient. Or to put it another way, there is always someone somewhere in the world who will do the job for less than you, and call centres don't have heavy plant/machinery to be removed.

It would take a far more radical government than the neo libs who run the south to prevent this, by freezing and re-using the assets of multi nationals who try to do a moonlight flit.

Unfortunately this Celtic Tiger ideology forms an important part Plaid Cymru's strategy of 'independence', an independence which with its 'Wales in Europe' ethos would have Brussels replacing Westminster as the main seat of government.

To be honest with you I don't think independence is the most pressing thing on people's minds at the moment. the creeping privatisation of just about everything we need, (and the attendant job insecurity, and wage cuts), are.


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## nwnm (Oct 8, 2005)

"What can George Galloway do for Wales? Well that depends on what he thinks Wales can do for him. I think his best bet would be to have talks with the existing Socialist parties here and see what happens. If he thinks he can be successful 'seriously' he will make his move early next year. (Only my opinion)"

I think that there should certainly be talks between FW and RESPECT before the Assembly elections. We'll just have to wait and see


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## Karac (Oct 8, 2005)

Actually Ireland has a higher standard of living than the UK -and also the gap between the richest and the poorest is narrower in Ireland than in the UK-so its not all doom and gloom with the Celtic Tiger.

Sometimes i wonder what Ireland would be like if it was still part of the UK -my guess is a bit like Wales only worse.

Id take a "Wales in Europe" ethos anytime-were just talking basic democratic rights here.
At a time when Scotland,Isle of Man and Guernsey have law-making powers-the Welsh Assembly has to get things checked in London first.

As to "I don't think independence is the most pressing thing on people's minds "-probably true but opinion polls consistently show a large majority in favour of Primary law making powers for Wales.

Maybe some people like being ruled in a top-down fashion from London but most dont.


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## lewislewis (Oct 8, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "By getting serious and not sitting on the sidelines maybe?" I'd take this more seriously if you weren't sitting in your armchair old son....



'old son', i'm 19 you fruit, and no i won't join Respect because they're a joke party and will never gain power and thus have an impact on my life.

There weren't 350 people listening to Galloway at Swansea University, about 100 is more accurate. Probably helps that the majority of Swansea's students come from England's cities where Respect have at least been heard of.

I'll add more to this thread in a moment.


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## lewislewis (Oct 8, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> Actually Ireland has a higher standard of living than the UK -and also the gap between the richest and the poorest is narrower in Ireland than in the UK-so its not all doom and gloom with the Celtic Tiger.
> 
> Sometimes i wonder what Ireland would be like if it was still part of the UK -my guess is a bit like Wales only worse.
> 
> ...



yeah precisely...I favour independence but the majority don't right now, however the majority of people in Wales would support having a Welsh Parliament. *Look at the opportunity the Scottish Parliament gave to the SSP to change the face of Scottish politics*...a Welsh Parliament could spark the same change here (though whether such change is sustainable is another issue). 
That's why I won't campaign for independence for Wales right now because we need a Parliament first. 

There's no point discussing 'the left in Wales' because as far as the world/the international working classes/international organisations/political parties/global corporations/whoever  are concerned, Wales does not yet exist.


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## nwnm (Oct 8, 2005)

"they're a joke party and will never gain power and thus have an impact on my life." Thats what Oona King thought  

"the majority of people in Wales would support having a Welsh Parliament. Look at the opportunity the Scottish Parliament gave to the SSP to change the face of Scottish politics...a Welsh Parliament could spark the same change here (though whether such change is sustainable is another issue)."
I don't know if its a majority - but a significant minority anyway. I would have no problem with primary law making powers being given to the Assembly. Nice to agree about something eh? I won't agree with you about the figures for the Galloway meeting though as I was in Swansea too. Neither would I say they were all 'English' (the common mantra in Wales when someone finds that people don't share their viewpoint). There were a significant number of 6th formers from a local college there too. (Obviously we cunningly parachuted them in from England to do their final year in S W Wales just to bolster the Galloway crowd  )

"Maybe some people like being ruled in a top-down fashion from London but most dont." Unfortunately most people couldn't give a toss. They are too busy trying to make ends meet. There are ways we can try and alter this by connecting with issues that concern them. That takes prioritisation and (ahem) organisation.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 8, 2005)

"Sometimes i wonder what Ireland would be like if it was still part of the UK -my guess is a bit like Wales only worse." Try the North of Ireland. Its a damned sight worse than Wales. Name the last Welsh political prisoner who ended up starving to death trying to get political status on hunger strike then? Trying to compare Wales and Ireland is an insult to the memory of people like Bobby Sands


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## lewislewis (Oct 8, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "they're a joke party and will never gain power and thus have an impact on my life." Thats what Oona King thought
> 
> .....Unfortunately most people couldn't give a toss. They are too busy trying to make ends meet. There are ways we can try and alter this by connecting with issues that concern them. That takes prioritisation and (ahem) organisation.



having a Respect MP as my constituency MP would make no difference to the way i try to 'make ends meet', what is the point in electing what is never going to be more than a handful of Respect MPs? You're never going to implement policies, and in any case England's voters voted for a Conservative government, go and annoy them instead.
You speak as if i know nothing of organisation, yet i guarantee i've been in bigger and more succesful campaigns than your Respect crew. I won't show the way to the Severn bridge.

EDITED TO ADD: Oona King was East London, this is a different country and culture.


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## nwnm (Oct 8, 2005)

Well if you were a fireman in east london it would have made a difference to the way you make ends meet. One of the first things RESPECT did after Galloway was elected was organise a blockade of Bethnal Green firestation when the local council tried to close it down and remove their fire engine. I think thats called direct action.....


lewislewis said -
"You speak as if i know nothing of organisation, yet i guarantee i've been in bigger and more succesful campaigns than your Respect crew. " Oooh doing well for a nineteen year old aren't we?

lewislewis said - 
"I won't show the way to the Severn bridge....this is a different country and culture." The last person to try to pull that one on me was one of Nick Griffins mates sonny. You are obviously in good company there (he's a fan of Welsh 'culture' - just ask his daughter). I won't go into what happened next, but I was left standing and he wasn't......

Your response is a good illustration of why nationalism and socialism don't mix - just ask the population of Germany, Italy and Spain


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## rednblack (Oct 8, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Well if you were a fireman in east london it would have made a difference to the way you make ends meet. One of the first things RESPECT did after Galloway was elected was organise a blockade of Bethnal Green firestation when the local council tried to close it down and remove their fire engine. I think thats called direct action.....



and stepped aside when it came to the crunch...


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## oisleep (Oct 8, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> One of the first things RESPECT did after Galloway was elected was organise a blockade of Bethnal Green firestation when the local council tried to close it down and remove their fire engine. I think thats called direct action.....



iirc the engine was due to be removed on the thursday, the month long build up to this respect "action" culminated in a photo opportunity for george on the tuesday, not long after either on the thursday or the following week, the engine was quietly removed, with no respect'ers anywhere near to do anything to prevent it (and not unfortuatnely over george's dead body as he'd previously claimed) Shortly after the engine was removed - in their party notes, the SWP was heralding the success of their action in preventing the engine from being removed, even though it was already gone

george galloway, during his election campaign said one of the key areas he was fighting the election on, was to ensure the good people of BG&B received adequae fire protection, after numerous enquires once the engine was removed it appears that george has done absolutely nothing to redress the balance left after the engine was removed, if george is true to his word, this means that he must assess the level of fire protection for BG&B as adequate now (minus one fire engine), and therefore brings into doubt the honourability of his intentions in this subject in the first place


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## rednblack (Oct 8, 2005)

glad to see someone who lives in george's constituency has seen this thread well spotted oisleep!


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

Theres a good chance we may either become the main opposition in Tower hamlets next year or even (heaven forbid) take control of the council. - which would put us in a good position to re-instate the fire engine if its gone - thats if oisleep hasn't beaten us to it of course........


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

of course we could just wait and see if enough defections roll in before then
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=874


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## rednblack (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Theres a good chance we may either become the main opposition in Tower hamlets next year or even (heaven forbid) take control of the council. - which would put us in a good position to re-instate the fire engine if its gone - thats if oisleep hasn't beaten us to it of course........



do you admit you were lying about the direct action carried out by respect then?

i only ask, because as a former member of the swp i know how much they lie to members and potential supporters


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Theres a good chance we may either become the main opposition in Tower hamlets next year or even (heaven forbid) take control of the council. - which would put us in a good position to re-instate the fire engine if its gone - thats if oisleep hasn't beaten us to it of course........



what do you mean *if* it's gone, what fuckin planet are you on?


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## rednblack (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> of course we could just wait and see if enough defections roll in before then
> http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=874



so, respect would be willing to accept more than half of tower hamlet's current labour councillors, no matter what their previous record?


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

note how they spell recognised as recognized in that link, george must have picked that up in yanqui


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

well actually I live in wales and the only person going on about it is some  arsehole who's only contribution to a discussion on the left in wales sparked by rumours of the demise of Forward Wales is to way in with a RESPECT slagging session. Apparently we are now getting slagged off for mounting a protest at the fact that the local fire engine was being cut (with the support of the local FBU but obviously not you). Presumably the reason the fire engine has gone is because we couldn't all camp out there 24/7 and nothing to do with the fact that it was axed by the local council. Its not me thats on another fucking planet pal. Is your real name Dave Spart?


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

it was you who was originally making a big deal about respect's direct action in relation to that area in the first place pal

i only added the facts to the story which clarifies that it was a photo opportunity not a direct action

i suppose anyone in BG&B who is worried about where the unchallenged removal of the engine leaves them in terms of fire protection, could pop along to george's weekly surgery to voice their concerns there

perhaps someone could remind us exactly when and where these are held.....


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

"so, respect would be willing to accept more than half of tower hamlet's current labour councillors, no matter what their previous record?" Yeah - we aim to relaunch ourselves as New Respect in a few months time complete with a privatisation programme. We're going to recruit Ooona king to do our PR
and we've decided to invade Breton as the French are so 'old Europe'.


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## rednblack (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> well actually I live in wales and the only person going on about it is some  arsehole who's only contribution to a discussion on the left in wales sparked by rumours of the demise of Forward Wales is to way in with a RESPECT slagging session. Apparently we are now getting slagged off for mounting a protest at the fact that the local fire engine was being cut (with the support of the local FBU but obviously not you). Presumably the reason the fire engine has gone is because we couldn't all camp out there 24/7 and nothing to do with the fact that it was axed by the local council. Its not me thats on another fucking planet pal. Is your real name Dave Spart?



yes, but dont you understand? respect mounted it's so called protest on the wrong day? do you think the firefighters would than you for that?

do you admit that it was a silly example of respect direct action, considering your total failiure? havent you got anything more successful to point at?


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## rednblack (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "so, respect would be willing to accept more than half of tower hamlet's current labour councillors, no matter what their previous record?"



is what you were implying in your previous post




			
				nwnm said:
			
		

> of course we could just wait and see if enough defections roll in before then
> http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=874



would seem to prove that


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> we aim to relaunch ourselves as New Respect in a few months time complete with a privatisation programme. We're going to recruit Ooona king to do our PR



i had wondered why the turner's were chucking you all that money


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

"havent you got anything more successful to point at?"

Well not withstanding Galloway beating King (no mean feat) try - 
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=887

http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=882

http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=873

http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=817

http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=773


"so, respect would be willing to accept more than half of tower hamlet's current labour councillors, no matter what their previous record? Is what you were implying in your previous post"
Quote:
Originally Posted by nwnm
of course we could just wait and see if enough defections roll in before then
http://www.respectcoalition.org/?ite=874 

Only if you haven't read the link. If you pair want toswap insults all night then fine - I don't need the beauty sleep, but your posts have absolutely nothing to do with the thread you are posting on


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## rednblack (Oct 9, 2005)

they have everything to do with respect supporters trying to present their shoddy career vehicle, your post says you could wait for enough defections to get the fire engine back, implying you would accept more than half the current tower hamlets councillors, how else would defections win you control of the council chamber?


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

it also had a smiley attached - ever hear of the word irony? Obviously not


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## Karac (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "I won't show the way to the Severn bridge....this is a different country and culture." The last person to try to pull that one on me was one of Nick Griffins mates sonny. You are obviously in good company there (he's a fan of Welsh 'culture' - just ask his daughter). I won't go into what happened next, but I was left standing and he wasn't......
> 
> Your response is a good illustration of why nationalism and socialism don't mix - just ask the population of Germany, Italy and Spain



Dont quite know what your saying here-Nick Griffin is a British Nationalist and fascist whatever language his daughter occasionally sings in.

I think the point about nationalism really is this, that in Wales we are dealing with an entirely different phenomenon because being Welsh for long periods of time has been a marginal or absorbed nationality- struggling to exist alongside a dominant large nation-state… I don’t see how any serious socialist in the Marxist tradition could be other than with them.

Theres a huge gulf between the nationalism of large States such as the ones you mention and the nationalism of minorities and stateless nations-its really quite moronic to accuse someone of being a facist because they might be a nationalist.


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

"Welsh for long periods of time has been a marginal or absorbed nationality- struggling to exist alongside a dominant large nation-state… I don’t see how any serious socialist in the Marxist tradition could be other than with them." Not that simple Whole swathes of Welsh society historically have galloped towards incorporation in a larger imperial state, (and no, that doesn't make them English) Take HenryTudor for example (otherwise known as Henry VII). As historian John Davies argues the Welsh gentry actually benefitted from the Act of Union, and became an active part of the ruling class in an imperialist state. What happened was a polarisation of class division in Wales at the same time (as elsewhere in the UK)

To talk about the Welsh nation in such timeless terminology, (or Welsh Culture as lewislewis does) Is ahistorical and implies nothing has changed since the time of Owain Glyndwr. There isn't a single Welsh 'culture' there are many cultures within  Welsh nationality. This would include people from other nations/cultures who have settled here over the centuries (including that of the Welsh bourgeois).

A marxist approach to nationalism is a little more complex than that. Starting from the fact that nation states are created by people, you have to ask who is seeking to create what state, and for who's benefit. There are some states whose creation you would oppose from the outset. The State of Ulster for example, (here I would agree with James Connolly that as londg as Ireland is partitioned you face "a carnival of reaction both North and South"). Or an Apartheid State in South Africa. In that context I wouldn't shed a tear if the British State were to uncouple into seperate entities. As I've a;ready stated elsewhere, there are more pressing things on the political landscape to worry about.


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> A marxist approach to nationalism is a little more complex than that. Starting from the fact that nation states are created by people, you have to ask who is seeking to create what state, and for who's benefit. There are some states whose creation you would oppose from the outset. The State of Ulster for example, (here I would agree with James Connolly that as londg as Ireland is partitioned you face "a carnival of reaction both North and South"). Or an Apartheid State in South Africa. In that context I wouldn't shed a tear if the British State were to uncouple into seperate entities. As I've a;ready stated elsewhere, there are more pressing things on the political landscape to worry about.



so are you saying, from a marxist perspective, you are not necissarily dead set against the idea of a state in the first place?

edit



> To talk about the Welsh nation in such timeless terminology, (or Welsh Culture as lewislewis does) Is ahistorical and implies nothing has changed since the time of Owain Glyndwr. There isn't a single Welsh 'culture' there are many cultures within Welsh nationality. This would include people from other nations/cultures who have settled here over the centuries (including that of the Welsh bourgeois)



i agree with this though


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

not in the first place......maybe a little later on with the withering away of the state  

But here we go meandering off topicagain....


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

you police your threads like a strict mistress nwnm


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

you've met my sister then  

I only do this because some people get pissed off if things go too off topic - particularly when a bunch of us started arguing like a bunch of kids and got pulled up by LMHF. Now she's REALLY strict.....


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

yeah but mate, you'll get used to things going off topic if you stick around here, it's just how it is, nothing personal or that

LMHF?


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> you police your threads like a strict mistress nwnm



Where did you get that pic of me?


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

*adjusts camera*


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

oisleep said:
			
		

> yeah but mate, you'll get used to things going off topic if you stick around here, it's just how it is, nothing personal or that
> 
> LMHF?



That is how it is.... now bend over


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

oops, it's you innit?

*goes back to scotish forum*


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> you've met my sister then
> 
> I only do this because some people get pissed off if things go too off topic - particularly when a bunch of us started arguing like a bunch of kids and got pulled up by LMHF. Now she's REALLY strict.....



I couldnt give a stuff if things go off topic, I cant abide needless abuse and willy waving


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

*waves at LMHF*


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

hMMm where did I put my magnifying glass?


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## oisleep (Oct 9, 2005)

i'm a grower


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

Which one are you?


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

"hMMm where did I put my magnifying glass?" Next to the mint flavoured courgettes I think


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 9, 2005)

Nobody has ever presented me with a mint flavoured courgette


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## King Biscuit Time (Oct 9, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Which one are you?


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## Karac (Oct 9, 2005)

Christ who were those well-hung blokes?

Anyway

"Welsh for long periods of time has been a marginal or absorbed nationality- struggling to exist alongside a dominant large nation-state… I don’t see how any serious socialist in the Marxist tradition could be other than with them." Not that simple Whole swathes of Welsh society historically have galloped towards incorporation in a larger imperial state, (and no, that doesn't make them English) Take HenryTudor for example (otherwise known as Henry VII). As historian John Davies argues the Welsh gentry actually benefitted from the Act of Union, and became an active part of the ruling class in an imperialist state. What happened was a polarisation of class division in Wales at the same time (as elsewhere in the UK)"

Its not as simple as that -its true the Welsh Gentry became anglicised within a few generations of what you generously term the act of Union (it wasnt-it was an act of "absoption" and states it implicitly)
But to a certain extent there was no other option for them-to "get on" in the world meant becoming legally an "Englishman".
Of course the vast majority of Welsh carried on as normal but with important drawbacks-they were largely banned from living in towns in Wales and could be legally killed if discovered in them-laws that amazingly still exist in some border towns.
Your argument boils down to some Welsh people did alright from Englands conquest of Wales so it was ok.

"To talk about the Welsh nation in such timeless terminology, (or Welsh Culture as lewislewis does) Is ahistorical and implies nothing has changed since the time of Owain Glyndwr. There isn't a single Welsh 'culture' there are many cultures within Welsh nationality. This would include people from other nations/cultures who have settled here over the centuries (including that of the Welsh bourgeois)."

Ive suggested no such thing.

"A marxist approach to nationalism is a little more complex than that. Starting from the fact that nation states are created by people, you have to ask who is seeking to create what state, and for who's benefit. There are some states whose creation you would oppose from the outset. The State of Ulster for example, (here I would agree with James Connolly that as londg as Ireland is partitioned you face "a carnival of reaction both North and South"). Or an Apartheid State in South Africa. In that context I wouldn't shed a tear if the British State were to uncouple into seperate entities. As I've a;ready stated elsewhere, there are more pressing things on the political landscape to worry about."

Well the British State was created in order to legalise the conquering and absoption of the Celtic elements of the British isles and to facilitate the plundering of the globe-seems like a pretty reactionary set up to me.


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## nwnm (Oct 9, 2005)

"Nobody has ever presented me with a mint flavoured courgette" See failed meet thread


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 10, 2005)

Oh I know it was mooted there. Im yet to recieve it though  
I stand by my comment- Nobody has ever presented me with a mint flavoured courgette


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 10, 2005)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

>



Those rumours about you true too then?


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## nwnm (Oct 10, 2005)

"Your argument boils down to some Welsh people did alright from Englands conquest of Wales so it was ok". No I'm saying that this took place under the rule of one of the Welsh Kings of England as part of the Tudor Dynasty. That there was no revolt against this and that the Welsh ruling class were eager participants in British imperial expansion

"Well the British State was created in order to legalise the conquering and absoption of the Celtic elements of the British isles and to facilitate the plundering of the globe-seems like a pretty reactionary set up to me" I would agree with the second part of this. For the first see my comments above. 



"Theres a huge gulf between the nationalism of large States such as the ones you mention and the nationalism of minorities and stateless nations" Couldn't agree more, unless of course by this you are going to try to equate Wales with countries like Palestine - a country that is being torn apart and brutalised, and where there has been a struggle for national liberation for many years.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 10, 2005)

But nobodys bought me a mint flavoured courgette yet...  .


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## chilango (Oct 10, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Chilango, if you were around when you said you were, you can hardly castigate the SWP for not getting involved in community politics. Your time in the SWP would have roughly happened at the time of our involvement in the Cardiff 3 Campaign, the Mark Harris Truth and Justice Campaign and in organising the massive anti racist demonstration after the murder of Mohan Singh Kullar, (you are quite right to say we should get more involved in this when possible though).



The SWPs involvement in the Cardiff 3 and the MHTJC were v commendable and i wouldn´t fault the local SWPs involved. Good stuff!

The Singh Kullar demo is a little more problematic. A great turnout, albeit aided by the presence of those at the anarcho/EF! severn seas gathering. You may also remember the presence of a large AFA bloc at the rear of the march who were forced to defend the marchers from a large though discreet fash presence (who had travelled from all over the UK to attack what they saw as a "soft" target. An interesting day all told. But not what I mean by community politics (unlike the Cardiff 3 etc.)


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## lewislewis (Oct 10, 2005)

Nwnm,  why do you support the principle of Palestinian nationalism but not the principle of Welsh nationalism?  (I used the word 'principle' to avoid comparing the daily realities of life in Wales to the Palestinian territories)

And also, why so many 'Respect ' posts in the Wales forum...only 500 people voted for them didn't they?  I think socialist ideas would be better recieved in an independent Wales than in the monolith United Kingdom, which is the most centralised 'democracy' in the world (apart from Japan).


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## nwnm (Oct 10, 2005)

I have nothing against independence in principle - I just don't think its the most important issue to organise around, there are things like the war and new labour's neo liberal agenda for a start.(These in my view are class issues)

Which probably explains why there were so many RESPECT posts in the Wales Forum. RESPECT is growing because of the growth of opposition to new labours priorities. Even in Wales.

Welsh nationalism is quite a contradictory phenomena. There is a difference between the concept of national identity held by working class people, and those held by Welsh bosses. A Welsh nationalist party ends up trying to straddle these 2 world views; saying different things to different sectors of the electorate. It ends up blurring class antagonisms with appeals to nationhood.


I haven't just been banging on about RESPECT in my posts. I've mentioned Forward Wales, The SSP, Suggestions for left unity in the elections, different historical interpretations and mint flavoured courgettes. (LMHF - play your cards right and I'll wave me courgette at you....  )


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## nwnm (Oct 10, 2005)

under socialism everyone will have mint flavoured Courgettes - not just party hacks!!!!


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 10, 2005)

But will there be compulsory putting condoms on with mouth lessons too?
I demand to know!


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## nwnm (Oct 11, 2005)

I expect it'll be voluntary - but then again....oh....go on then


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## oisleep (Oct 11, 2005)

it's worked out nicely in the end


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## lewislewis (Oct 11, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> I have nothing against independence in principle - I just don't think its the most important issue to organise around, there are things like the war and new labour's neo liberal agenda for a start.(These in my view are class issues)
> 
> Welsh nationalism is quite a contradictory phenomena. There is a difference between the concept of national identity held by working class people, and those held by Welsh bosses. A Welsh nationalist party ends up trying to straddle these 2 world views; saying different things to different sectors of the electorate. It ends up blurring class antagonisms with appeals to nationhood.



The Welsh nationalist party currently in prominence doesn't say different things to different sectors of the electorate...maybe different languages but never different policies. 
I don't care if its 'contradictory' (it isn't btw), its far more credible, popular and likely to see fruition than Marxism and their related far-left ideologies (though i do agree with the basic ideas Marx laid out and support some 'Marxist' movements and states in history).

I approach politics in the way i do (i.e a nationalist approach) because i fundamentally believe there won't be a Marxist revolution ever so there is no point 'building' for one, i have better things to do and life isn't bad enough to require bloodshed. I do believe that socialist ideas are the correct and most beneficial ideas for society and to reduce the exploitation of workers. These ideas should be implemented by an elected government, and this will never happen in the United Kingdom because it is a reactionary state.

A Welsh republic would have no nobility or monarchy, everything could be decided democratically, and because Wales has one of the strongest left-wing traditions in Europe, a Welsh republic would be a natural venue for a leftist government that maybe could help out working people?

I am not a cultural nationalist.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 12, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> There are no doubt good Welsh working class activists.
> 
> BUt its "leading cadre" were in my time at least, not.
> 
> Crucially, they determined activity and policy (following Londons orders of course) which meant that they could never provide a credible challenge to, or engagement with nationalist ideas.



A long time ago I had a drink in The Gower with two other then SWP members. At the time the Cardiff branch was rather larger than it is now. It struck me at the time however that not only were all three of us local lads but we were in a working class minority within the branch. Only one of those gathered on that evening remains in the SWP today and for some reason that rather apolitical chap is currently fulltimer!

However the failure of the SWP to develop a critique of Welsh nationalism, other than Charlie Kimbers pamphlet and a couple of dire articles by a former bus driving public school boy, is not because it is only a minority of the groups members in Wales who are Welsh. Nor is it because all branches, not just those in Wales, must do the bidding of the Hackney intelligentsia (sic). The real reason is because the question of Welsh nationalism is not one that poses itself when the working class is in struggle.

In other words Welsh nationalism is a question for Welsh nationalists and has nothing to do with the interests of the working class. As such it is a question that the petty bourgeoisie in Wales is interested in and the empty vessels who must have 10,000 word theses on every little question however lacking in importance it might be.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 12, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Yup. Like many others of my generation who left and/or were forced out by a leadership clique.
> 
> The student organiser at Cardiff and Glamorgan Unis both quit, the entire SWSS group at Cardiff quit too. Sound healthy?



Again this is delayed, due to illness, but I have to echo the poster who commented that chilango is telling porkies.

At one point a majority of SWSS members at Cardiff did leave and a former student at Glamorgan was associated with them and quit at more or less the same time. All of those cncerned felt that they had been driven out, in part, by the then fulltimer, who has since returned to his satrapy in Swansea. That much is true.

But there were no 'organisers' to quit simply rank and file members. Some of whom would have drifted off at some point anyhow. Other than one former cardiff SWSS/SWPer none of those concerned are active today as far as I'm aware and I believe I'm still in contact with most concerned.

As a footnote the lad from Glamorgan Uni learnt Welsh at his mother tit and I remember him translating material for SWSS. So chilango is mistaken shall we say about the lack of bilingual material.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 12, 2005)

Chilango!!!!

Why you telling porkies?

You may be interested to know that Phil is to become a father any day now. How about repaying him the deposit money you owe him?

Sweet Dreams.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 12, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The Welsh nationalist party currently in prominence doesn't say different things to different sectors of the electorate...



One obvious area of Plaid doublespeak is over the environment. Plaid has reasonably progressive policies on the environment - on paper!

Plaid claim to be committed to renewable energy, yet Adam Price MP (supposedly on the left of the party) campaigned against a wind farm being built in his constituency! Yes you heard that right, Adam Price MP is for Wind Farms except when their in his constituency???!! You can read his incredibly spurious reasons for this here: 

http://www.adamprice.org.uk/press/releases/2005-07-22.shtml

Are Plaid for or against Wind Farms? The answer is that Plaid are for wind farms except when it would alienate their middle class base in West Wales.

Or let me give another example, the demolition of St. David's Wood near Blackwood to make way for a military installation despite thousands of signatures from local residents to oppose it and a campaign, the trees were cut down.

Who was the force behind the demolition of a place of natural beauty - the Plaid controlled Caerphilly Council.


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## lewislewis (Oct 12, 2005)

Pro-offshore wind farms more like!

We can't have onshore wind farms destroying our scenery without a balance between other types of renewable energy. Maximising the other types will limit the need for onshore wind farms.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 12, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Pro-offshore wind farms more like!
> 
> We can't have onshore wind farms destroying our scenery without a balance between other types of renewable energy. Maximising the other types will limit the need for onshore wind farms.



There's a certain hypocrisy, when power stations are built in urban working class areas - it's considered okay. But when wind turbines are set up in rural Wales, the countryside alliance/plaid set are up in arms!

Most environmentalist's are unaminous that a realistic renewable energy programme will have to include onshore wind farms, as well as other measures such as a radical programme of house insulation (that will create jobs for those carrying out the insulation and save workers on their heating bills), and forcing through laws to force corporations to take action on energy efficiency.

Many people who find wind farms visually unappealing may oppose them, but they are necessary and far less of a visual pollutant than that will result from global warming that could profoundly effect entire societies - many ecologists believe that the violence of hurricanes such as Katrina is due to man-made climate change, several islands in the pacific could face destruction with rapidly eroding shore lines and countries such as Bangladesh are increasingly prone to flooding.

If people want to live a 21st Century lifestyle with high level energy consumption then they have to make sacrifices, this includes onshore wind farms.

Plaid Cymru's committment to renewable energy is meaningless, like New Labour they pay lipservice to the environment, but as soon as it effects their middle class voter base they retreat into populism and the kind of "we support wind farms but this is the wrong kind of wind farm in the wrong place" sophistry and spindoctoring that we see Adam Price MP come out with. Rather than educating the electorate on the environment he has pandered to a prejudice that needs to be challenged


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## nwnm (Oct 12, 2005)

To be honest lewislewis, I'm glad your not a cultural nationalist. Its nice to have an exchange of views/make observations sometimes even if you are not certain they will effect the person you are debating with that much - helps us clarify things in our own minds

"A Welsh republic would have no nobility or monarchy, everything could be decided democratically, and because Wales has one of the strongest left-wing traditions in Europe, a Welsh republic would be a natural venue for a leftist government that maybe could help out working people?"

The USA is a republic with no nobility or monarchy, but aside from the revolution and the out come of the civil war, it has turned into a the major imperialist state of the last 100 years; a bastion of reaction. There are some excellent examples of working class struggle to be found in Wales, but they are just that the history of the international working class. What was it Charlie Marx once said "the workers of the world, they have no country" The history of Wales also has some pretty reactionary points. For example, when the rest of Britain was in revolt in 1919, there were race riots in Cardiff and Newport, (in 1911 also, at the time of the seaman's strike in Cardiff there was also a race riot in Riverside, which sent its chinese community back to the docks area for refuge). All this in the land that produced 'The Miners Next Step'

In the battle between Monarch and Parliament, the overwhelming majority ended up on the side of the Monarchy! Only 2 areas in Wales sided with Parliament - communities of merchants in south Pembokeshire and north west of Wrexham. It is only throught the dimension of working class politics that you can view such events as the Merther rising etc.


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## lewislewis (Oct 12, 2005)

I'm not suggesting Wales is a socialist homeland by any means, but politically, the Welsh elecotrate has voted to the left of the English, (arguably) Scottish or wider UK electorate, and would therefore much likely be a less reactionary construct than the UK is and always has been.

I think like the Bible, Marx cannot be taken word for word but might have some relevance. I think Marx's apparent dislike for the nation state is not a functional idea to follow in this world, nation states are a much better alternative to empires, especially anti-imperialist states.

So Nwnm, what kind of Wales would you like to see in 20 years time?


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## nwnm (Oct 12, 2005)

"I think Marx's apparent dislike for the nation state is not a functional idea to follow in this world, nation states are a much better alternative to empires, especially anti-imperialist states."

I think Marx's idea that the working class struggle is an international struggle (its not a dislike for the nation state that Marx - but the forces/relations of production which create them.). Nation states create Empires. Anti Emperialist states are interesting in that they show that there is a possible alternative - but that this alternative needs to also be achieved in one of the major imperialist powers to reach fruition. 

Otherwise you get some bastardised form of socialism (Stalinism for example - where I would argue a ruling class re-asserted itself using 'revolutionary' terminolgy, and set up a rival empire to the west). 

"So Nwnm, what kind of Wales would you like to see in 20 years time?" One where we have at least achieved a Welsh Parliament (possibly independence - who knows?). One that is opposed to a European super state, but supports the international struggles of working people. Ideally one which has witnessed a revolutionary wave of workers struggles (and taken part in this) Ah well....we can but dream (and organise....)


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## roger rosewall (Oct 12, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I'm not suggesting Wales is a socialist homeland by any means, but politically, the Welsh elecotrate has voted to the left of the English, (arguably) Scottish or wider UK electorate, and would therefore much likely be a less reactionary construct than the UK is and always has been.
> 
> I think like the Bible, Marx cannot be taken word for word but might have some relevance. I think Marx's apparent dislike for the nation state is not a functional idea to follow in this world, nation states are a much better alternative to empires, especially anti-imperialist states.



The above is odd to say the least. In what sense is the Welsh electorate to the left of England or Scotland? Voting patterns, with the complication of Plaid in some areas, are not very similar to those of any other region of Britain. Similarly popular apathy with regard to politics in general and working class politics in particular are also remarkably similar.

As for the comments on Marx have you actually read any Marx? You may be aware of a little text he wrote known as the Communist Manifesto which made a case for the unification of the German nation. That hardly speaks of his dislike for nation states does it? That said he was well aware that nations were transitory phenomena which came into being with bourgeois society and were fated to disappear alongside that rotten system. Given that nations now play no progressive role in the life of the economy and have no real purchase on the lives of many people trapped within them it strikes me his insights on this question were remarkably prescient.


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## lewislewis (Oct 13, 2005)

Well for example, at the last GE, England (i.e the majority of voters in England) voted for a Conservative government. Wales (and Scotland for that matter) did not. Wales always votes for those parties that are (seemingly) to the left of the Tories such as Labour (which always stands in Wales on a platform to the left of New Labour), Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems. 
It is obvious that the Welsh electorate is to the left of the English electorate because Wales is more working class than England! Wales is also to the left of Scotland because Wales does not have the equivalent tradition to Scottish Conservatism (though election results show that this is changing over time). All political analysts and other commentators mention it, its in various books, including 'Devolution in the United Kingdom' by V.Bogdanor which i'm reading right now. This is a known fact Roger.

As for Marx, i've not read him fully, i couldn't be arsed, but i've read the Communist Manifesto (an SWP member gave me it). Roger i don't think nation-states are fated to disappear...look around and wake up ! This is why i'm not a Marxist. And also i must apologise but self-proclaimed Marxists have always been extremely hostile to the idea of a nice, small independent country, usually backing their hostility with mutterings of 'petty bourgeouis society', so i assumed that these Marxists inherited their hostility from Marx.


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## lewislewis (Oct 13, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "I think Marx's apparent dislike for the nation state is not a functional idea to follow in this world, nation states are a much better alternative to empires, especially anti-imperialist states."
> 
> I think Marx's idea that the working class struggle is an international struggle (its not a dislike for the nation state that Marx - but the forces/relations of production which create them.). Nation states create Empires. Anti Emperialist states are interesting in that they show that there is a possible alternative - but that this alternative needs to also be achieved in one of the major imperialist powers to reach fruition.
> 
> ...



That's cool Nwnm, i agree exactly on the kind of Wales i want to see.

Well as far as i can see, there are no countries in the world that do not have a ruling class. Even shining examples of justice such as Venezuela and Cuba (I choose to support these states due to their resistance to imperialism) have ruling classes and experience the exploitation of workers. I don't see why i should put my life on the line to destroy capitalism in Wales, when under capitalism my life is not under threat, I get paid enough to support myself (though obviously i need more ideally) and my (working class) family has a decent house, car etc and regular jobs. Yes we're technically being 'exploited', but life isn't that bad! So i don't want to destroy capitalism in Wales. However i would like a socialist government that could reform capitalism to make life easier for me, the reforms most important to me would be a higher minimum wage, an abolition of student fees and to end privatisation in the NHS!

Let's not bother destroying capitalism because it's never going to happen. I can't believe people can still advocate a Marxist revolution in the 21st century when a succesful Marxist revolution has never happened (even the few years after 1917 were not succesful because there was the Terror etc). To put it simply, we don't need to overthrow capitalism, because we have regulated its most harmful effects, and should now work to regulate it even more (by building socialism- but not revolutionary socialism).

Thoughts?


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## roger rosewall (Oct 13, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Well for example, at the last GE, England (i.e the majority of voters in England) voted for a Conservative government. Wales (and Scotland for that matter) did not. Wales always votes for those parties that are (seemingly) to the left of the Tories such as Labour (which always stands in Wales on a platform to the left of New Labour), Plaid Cymru and Lib Dems.
> It is obvious that the Welsh electorate is to the left of the English electorate because Wales is more working class than England! Wales is also to the left of Scotland because Wales does not have the equivalent tradition to Scottish Conservatism (though election results show that this is changing over time). All political analysts and other commentators mention it, its in various books, including 'Devolution in the United Kingdom' by V.Bogdanor which i'm reading right now. This is a known fact Roger.
> 
> As for Marx, i've not read him fully, i couldn't be arsed, but i've read the Communist Manifesto (an SWP member gave me it). Roger i don't think nation-states are fated to disappear...look around and wake up ! This is why i'm not a Marxist. And also i must apologise but self-proclaimed Marxists have always been extremely hostile to the idea of a nice, small independent country, usually backing their hostility with mutterings of 'petty bourgeouis society', so i assumed that these Marxists inherited their hostility from Marx.



Ok lets begin at the beginning.

That a majority of voters in England voted Tory does not make England more working class than Wales or Scotland. For a start you ignore that part of the electorate that did not vote and also ignore the hundreds of thousands of workers who do not have the vote because they are not citizens of this country. Given that non-voters are more likely to be workers and that most non-citizens are also workers this rather distorts your picture.

Similarly I disagree that Plaid or the Liberals are to the left of Labour in any meangiful sense. To the left of the New Labour govt yes but that is a very different thing is it not? In any case when these parties, and the Green Party come to that, are in office they are as happy as bunnies in enforcing cuts and privatisation measures. Like it or lump it but a Labour vote still signifies some kind of class conscious working class vote which a vote for bourgeois parties like Plaid and the Libs does not and never will.

You don't think nation states will disappear. I've news for you chum they already are. If the EU is not a partial negation of the nation states within it what the hell is? Moreover look at any of the old nation states and you find that they now contain substantial minority groups which do not identify with the core nation. Again many nation states contain within their borders smaller national groups which feel, and often are, oppressed.

To elaborate on the last point the Kurds are one of the largest nations lacking their own national state. Should they form their own state? Starnge to relate not a single substantial political grouping advocates the formation of a single Kurdish state. The barzani and talabani forces in Kurdish iraq want their region toretain its autonomy because theyare whoring their followers to the USa and therefore reject any genuinely independent state. And in Turkey an indendent Kurdish state makes little sense when a majority of the Kurdish working class is located not in Kurdistan but in Izmir and Ankara. A nation state simply makes no sense for the Kurds. A socialist middle east does.

The only nice small independent state that ever existed was Ruritania and it was fictional.


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## lewislewis (Oct 13, 2005)

"That a majority of voters in England voted Tory does not make England more working class than Wales or Scotland." You then contradict this by saying a Labour vote is a class-conscious vote...England is less working-class than Wales, it is a fact. Wales was the first country in the world to employ more people in industry than in agriculture.
I would claim that Wales is one of the most significant cradles of working class history of western Europe, if not the world. Wales is much more working class than England , and importantly much more conscious of its class as you rightly point out is represented by the consistently large Labour vote- though this has decreased during the past few elections due to Labour's shift to the right- this is good enough proof for me that the major bulk of Wales' electorate is working class-conscious and is voting to the left of London's fabricated 'centre-ground' consensus. The two-party (possibly three-party) battle in England is waged to claim the 'centre-ground', basically to claim the votes of Middle England and the post-Thatcherite generaiton that delude themselves into thinking they are part of Middle England.
In contrast, the Welsh electoral battle is much more convoluted, with four parties that recieve significant percentages of the vote at all levels. I guess you're from Wales, so you can see that every party in Wales stands slightly to the left of its English counter-part; even the Tories. The Lib Dem vote is DEFINITELY seen as a vote to the left of labour, i know this from the last election from my friends that voted for them, and from the propaganda i saw at the GE and the Welsh assembly elections. Plaid Cymru is admittedly less obvious, but the explicit socialist connotations of their policies again mark them clearly as to the left of Labour, and Plaid's brief record in power is to the left of Labour.
And most people when they go to vote at a GE, won't taken into consideration Plaid Cymru or the Green Party's record in local government, they'll be thinking on a national level. Apart from people already on the left, voters won't think 'oh im not voting for the Greens/Plaid against Blair because they enforced PFI on so and so council.' It's far too complicated.

I don't think nation states will disappear. You've misinterpreted me, because i'm fully aware that massive super-states will emerge. What is the EU if not a would-be giant nation-state? Eventually the EU will have 'national' insitutions and symbols such as a 'national' anthem, 'national' armed forces etc etc.

The Kurds i know from Turkey are adamant there should be a Kurdish state encompassing the mainly Kurd areas of Turkey, Iraq and Iran. They don't think it'l ever materialise. I don't see what point you're trying to make with the Kurds, they are a legitimate national group wherever found and therefore constitute a (n albeit stateless) nation.

I know loads of nice small independent states, Norway, Finland, Sweden, Ireland, Switzerland, Portugal...in all of these places people can democratically decide their own government (including voting for Marxists if they wish), have human rights respected, have independent law courts, freedom of speech etc etc. Why would you wish to overthrow such societies?


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## nwnm (Oct 14, 2005)

" we don't need to overthrow capitalism, because we have regulated its most harmful effects, and should now work to regulate it even more (by building socialism- but not revolutionary socialism)". This is what a generation of people argued in the 50's and 60's, during the long economic boom, but not now. One of the most harmful effects of capitalism is war. The last century was littered with examples of this, as rival bourgeois states fought for supremecy. As General Von Clausewitz once said "War is a continuation of economic competition, by other means". And this century we seem to be in a state of permawar (the war against 'terror'), which smacks of George Orwell's 1984. Rather than becoming more regulated, capitalism is becoming more de-regulated - hence the rise of the neo-liberal agenda (i.e. privatisation and the pursuit of profit). As Rosa Luxemburg once wrote "We face a choice - socialism or Barbarism"

" I don't want to destroy capitalism in Wales. However i would like a socialist government that could reform capitalism to make life easier for me, the reforms most important to me would be a higher minimum wage, an abolition of student fees and to end privatisation in the NHS!" The rise of this neo liberal agenda has led to a situation where people vote for reformist (i.e. labour style) parties who are no longer, because they follow the logic of the market able to offer reforms. I agree that the list of reforms which you point to are important. But in a situation where the reformist parties (once they are elected) are unable to offer these two things happen - 
1) revolutionary socialists become prominent amongst those who seek to defend and extend the reforms that the ruling class are trying to claw back.
2) A layer of people who would ordinarily have joined reformist parties begin to turn away from these organisations and look for an alternative home, but do not see themselves as revolutionaries.

Under these circumstances it would be a dereliction of duty not to try and group these people together in some form of organisation - hence RESPECT. This has brought together former Labour members/supporters, anti war activists and anti capitalists. We need to fight to keep what we have but also keep our eyes on a greater prize in my opinion


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## roger rosewall (Oct 14, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> "That a majority of voters in England voted Tory does not make England more working class than Wales or Scotland." You then contradict this by saying a Labour vote is a class-conscious vote...England is less working-class than Wales, it is a fact. Wales was the first country in the world to employ more people in industry than in agriculture.
> I would claim that Wales is one of the most significant cradles of working class history of western Europe, if not the world. Wales is much more working class than England , and importantly much more conscious of its class as you rightly point out is represented by the consistently large Labour vote- though this has decreased during the past few elections due to Labour's shift to the right- this is good enough proof for me that the major bulk of Wales' electorate is working class-conscious and is voting to the left of London's fabricated 'centre-ground' consensus. The two-party (possibly three-party) battle in England is waged to claim the 'centre-ground', basically to claim the votes of Middle England and the post-Thatcherite generaiton that delude themselves into thinking they are part of Middle England.
> In contrast, the Welsh electoral battle is much more convoluted, with four parties that recieve significant percentages of the vote at all levels. I guess you're from Wales, so you can see that every party in Wales stands slightly to the left of its English counter-part; even the Tories. The Lib Dem vote is DEFINITELY seen as a vote to the left of labour, i know this from the last election from my friends that voted for them, and from the propaganda i saw at the GE and the Welsh assembly elections. Plaid Cymru is admittedly less obvious, but the explicit socialist connotations of their policies again mark them clearly as to the left of Labour, and Plaid's brief record in power is to the left of Labour.
> And most people when they go to vote at a GE, won't taken into consideration Plaid Cymru or the Green Party's record in local government, they'll be thinking on a national level. Apart from people already on the left, voters won't think 'oh im not voting for the Greens/Plaid against Blair because they enforced PFI on so and so council.' It's far too complicated.
> ...



Hmmm, it would appear that I should have written less not more! Reread thus there is no contraduicition. In any case you pass over the fact that there are substantial numbers of workers living in England who do not have the vot. Surely they too are members of the working class entitled to representation? And if they are considered as a part of the working class in England then that country is no less working class than Wales or Scotland.

There not time enough to go into the question of the declining levels of working class consciousness in the last couple of decades. But I disagree that there is any qualitative difference between the various parties and their English counter-parts. As for the idea that Plaid Cymru is in any sense socialist I suspect that we understand that term very differently indeed. It is true that some people in Plaid copnsider themselves to be socialists but the bottom line for me is that their party has no organic connection with the working class, unlike Labour, and their understanding of socialism is simply welfare statism, that is to say liberalism.

As for your comment on the EU it is absurd to suggest that it is an embryonic nation. It is what it has always been a bourgeois trade bloc designed to further exploit the working class while organising us as a market for the commodities which we produce. In no sense does its existance negate the continued presence of the existing nations and states of Europe. The idea that anyone has a consciousness of themself being a European national is positively hallucinatory.

As for the Kurds I will attempt to explain my point a little further. Certainly they ar a national group and entitled to form a nation state should they so wish in my opinion. But given that the largest potentially most powerful sections of the Kurdish working class are located outside the bounderies of Kurdistan the Kurdish national problem cannot be solved by the formation of an independent state alone. Also one must recognise that none of the major Kurdish parties is seriously concerned with creating such a state as all, one way or another, are creatures of greater forces operating in the region as I mentioned in respect to the KDP and PUK in Iraq both of which are sunserviant allies of the USA.

Finally I disagree that your list of nice small nation states is anything of the kind. Lets look at your list; Norway is probably your best bet but that country is a member of NATO and fully participats as a junior partner in the imperialist oppression of the former colonial world; Finland is not such a nice state have come into being, as an independent state, when its boss class engaged in a vicious civil war that murdered thousands of working people and it too is a junior ally of western imperialism; Sweden sold arms and iron ore to both the Nazis and Allies in WW2 so concerned were they for other small nations and today operates as yet another junior partner of imperialism;  Ireland well its not a nation state is it given that a substantial part of that nation is still enslaved by the British state despite the surrender of the provos and its leaders have a long history of pimping for imperialism via the UN; Switzerland is not a nation and Portugal only developed a bourgeois parliamentary democracy after the workers kicked out their former fascist rulers and it too collaborates with its fellow imperialist powers. I might add that all these nice small nation states have major and growing problems concerning racism and immigration issues. The same can be said for their record on immigration. Sure most are better than UK PLC but thats not saying much is it?


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## lewislewis (Oct 14, 2005)

* Wales has lower average income than England...i'm sure you can find statistics if you don't believe me. Wales has associated higher poverty levels than England. Wales has a lower ratio of rich people than England, a smaller middle-class, a larger working-class etc etc. I've never heard anybody dispute this apart from yourself.

* Wales is historically to the left of England, again academics agree on this (its mentioned in various books i'm reading at Uni)...this is a fact taught to any of our youth that care to study politics.

* A European national consciousness will not even be required if (as expected) the European institutions remain unaccountable and undemocratic.

* Kurds; like any historically oppressed minority they have scattered into various disapora. Just like the Palestinians. Would you deny the Palestinians a state when their majority lives abroad? The leading Kurdish parties do not advocate an independent Kurdistan because they have sold themselves out to the US (as you agree). However, ordinary Kurds want an independent Kurdistan, and this opinion includes those of the Kurdish diaspora in Wales at least. I don't suggest that the Kurdish or Palestinian (nor even Welsh) national problem can be solved by creation of a nation-state alone, but it would be a concrete start.

* The people alive in Sweden today that are proud to be Swedish, were not alive when Sweden (under a past incarnation actually) sold arms and iron ore to the Nazis. They do not seem to mind that they are a junior partner to imperialism..and if they do mind they don't see a way of changing it. That is a Swedish issue for Swedes to consider. People in Norway/Sweden or perhaps Finland/Iceland are very glad they live in their nice Scandinavian nation-states with the best living conditions in the world, as opposed to living in one of the attempted Marxist paradises. Oh, but they were not Marxist states but 'deformed workers states' , when is a real Marxist paradise going to come about? Never.

* So being better than the UK 'isn't saying much', well i disagree, any country that raises its living standard above the UK's, maintains democracy and human rights, maintains a welfare state, is something worth having.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 14, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> * Wales has lower average income than England...i'm sure you can find statistics if you don't believe me. Wales has associated higher poverty levels than England. Wales has a lower ratio of rich people than England, a smaller middle-class, a larger working-class etc etc. I've never heard anybody dispute this apart from yourself.
> 
> * Wales is historically to the left of England, again academics agree on this (its mentioned in various books i'm reading at Uni)...this is a fact taught to any of our youth that care to study politics.
> 
> ...



* Wales has lower living standards and wages than England you say. How observant of you. But poverty and income levels are inadequate as a method of defining social classes. I would suggest that it is far more sensible to look at the relationship between different social groups and their relationship to the means of production. In which case England is not so very different to Wales. A personal example may help explain this. Many years ago my Grandfather had a newsagents in a working class district. At that time a majority of his neighbours and customers were skilled manual workers. That is to say they belonged to the classic old style blue collar working class. As skilled workers their wages were higher than those of most workers and certanly higher than the wages my Grandfather paid himself. And as a (very) small capitalist despite living in the same conditions as his friends and neighbours he was not proletarian but a petite bourgeois. Mind you as a former rail worker he was a damn sight more class conscious than many a worker.

* You tell us that academics say Wales is historically to the left of England. Not terribly impressed by most bourgeois academics I'm afraid. Bless their souls but they peddle bourgeois ideology for the most part.

* A European bourgious consciousness is required if Europe is to become some kind of a nation as you suggested. It is this consciousness that differentiates the EU from the German Customs union that preceded Bismarks unification of the larger part of that nation.

* The majority of Palestinians continue to live in Palestine. That is if we define Palestine as the undivided territory from desert to sea. The only way the Palestinian national question can be solved is by  the formation of a unitary secular republic on the entire territory of Palestine. Given the economic situation of the region and the cultural links of the peoples concerned it would also seem advisable to call for a federation of such states. Similarly for the Kurds a national state cannot solve their problems given that the strongest section of the working class lives outside the bounderies of their national territory and their chronic shortage of capital. Again this would neccesitate the formation of a unitary secular state as a part of a federation of such states. (By the way i do not agree that the existing Kurdish are pawns of imperialism I made the point in the first instance). But for any of this to happen there needs must be a social revolution led by the working class as nationalism itself offers the majority of Kurds, workers and peasants, exactly nothing.

* Sure Sweden has a high standard of living now but that it is slowly being reduced to the general level prevailing in the EU. It has to be from the point of view of the Swedish boss class as otherwise they cannot compete with low wage countries in the EU. And Sweden is still a junior partner of imperialism btw and some Swedes are pissed at that just as they should be. The Swedish miracle is dead and buried you know. Things don't look good for that particular nice little nationa state. As i noted before Sweden has growing problems that are very similar to those of UK PLC we're just furthwer down to the line that is all.

* There was only ever one degenerate workers state and there never was a Marxist miracle. Why would anyone want a Marxist revolution? The very idea is an absurdity. Marxists are concerned with the struggle for workers power and for a social revolution. Despite making pronoucements about it you really have no knowledge of Marxism do you?


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## Karac (Oct 14, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Ok lets begin at the beginning.
> 
> That a majority of voters in England voted Tory does not make England more working class than Wales or Scotland. For a start you ignore that part of the electorate that did not vote and also ignore the hundreds of thousands of workers who do not have the vote because they are not citizens of this country. Given that non-voters are more likely to be workers and that most non-citizens are also workers this rather distorts your picture.
> .


No it makes it less working class.



			
				roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Similarly I disagree that Plaid or the Liberals are to the left of Labour in any meangiful sense. To the left of the New Labour govt yes but that is a very different thing is it not? In any case when these parties, and the Green Party come to that, are in office they are as happy as bunnies in enforcing cuts and privatisation measures. Like it or lump it but a Labour vote still signifies some kind of class conscious working class vote which a vote for bourgeois parties like Plaid and the Libs does not and never will.


Plaids far to the left of Labour and the Liberals-the areas that has Plaid MPs 
are working-class areas-Caernafon,Camarthen -places that are some of the poorest areas of Europe.



			
				roger rosewall said:
			
		

> You don't think nation states will disappear. I've news for you chum they already are. If the EU is not a partial negation of the nation states within it what the hell is? Moreover look at any of the old nation states and you find that they now contain substantial minority groups which do not identify with the core nation. Again many nation states contain within their borders smaller national groups which feel, and often are, oppressed.


No nation states are appearing by the minute-a cursory glance at the World-cup qualification table will educate you-the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe have blown apart into dozens of nations.
Dont worry-Nationalism is the new Internationalism


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## roger rosewall (Oct 14, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> No it makes it less working class.
> 
> Plaids far to the left of Labour and the Liberals-the areas that has Plaid MPs
> are working-class areas-Caernafon,Camarthen -places that are some of the poorest areas of Europe.
> ...



Simply asserting something does not make it so my dear Karac.

Plaid when it holds office at the local level has been as eager to carry out cuts as any Tory or Nu Labour run council. By comparison the pose of some Welsh nats as left wing or even socialist is as meaningful as a Girls Aloud song.

As for the appreance of nation states in the former Russian Empire, Eastern Europe and the Balkans that merely proves my contention that nation states are out moded.  What a success these states have been thus far. Those in the former Yugoslavia and in the region of the Caucasus born in blood and civil war. The more advanced economically speaking are seeing attacks on living standards far more vicious tha anything we have to put up with in this crappy nation state. Many of them are marked by anti-gypsy racism that makes the racist prejudices of the BNP look like Guardianista multi-culturalism. And those that do not bend the knee to the USA are starved of capital while those that possess resources the western imperialists covet are bullied and coerced into selling at bargain basement prices. Sure and the workers and peasants of these nation states are having a great time!!!


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## Karac (Oct 14, 2005)




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## lewislewis (Oct 14, 2005)

Roger, i don't really give a flying fuck about marxism anymore, neither does anyone in my working-class Plaid-loving family. The only reason i am making 'pronouncements' about it is because you infect your arguments with references to the 'bourgeois'.

I haven't lived in a Plaid-run area so i won't pass much comment on that, except that PFI schemes were nowhere near as prevalent under Plaid as they were under Nu Labour.

Your analysis of Eastern European nation states is absurd. It is not the Nation's fault what policies its government pursues, it is the government of each state's fault (and the fault sometimes of external governments and forces).

More importantly...There are more nation states in existence now then their ever have been..how can you suggest the nation-state is disappearing? There will soon be a few more nations in the world. Palestine definitely, with Southern Sudan and SADR (Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic-Western Sahara) to follow, then hopefully Somaliland will gain international recognition, then maybe Transdnistria, East Turkestan, Kurdistan, who knows.

For an international Wales : )


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## roger rosewall (Oct 15, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Roger, i don't really give a flying fuck about marxism anymore, neither does anyone in my working-class Plaid-loving family. The only reason i am making 'pronouncements' about it is because you infect your arguments with references to the 'bourgeois'.
> 
> I haven't lived in a Plaid-run area so i won't pass much comment on that, except that PFI schemes were nowhere near as prevalent under Plaid as they were under Nu Labour.
> 
> ...



Lewis chill a little. This is bulletin board it's not a matter of life and death what we say here.

Look I really don't mind that you don't give a toss about marxism. But if you wanna debate you're just going to have to get used to people using terms like bourgeois if they so choose. And the way i see things Plaid defends bourgeois society which makes it a bourgeois party.

Another thing I think you need to learn is not to misrepresent the views and arguments of others. For example I did not write that it is the fault of the nation that Eastern Europe is currently a cesspit of racism. It is however not enough to blame outside forces when the logic of nationalism is clearly racist as by definition nationalism is an exclusive thing. Its pretty damned easy for right wing demagogues to use such exclusivist ideologies as nationalism to encourage racism. Lets face facts here fascism and neo-liberalism are nationalist ideologies.

Again i did not suggest that nation states are dissapearing. My proposition was that nations are outmoded and transitory phenomena which are doomed to disspear as they no longer have any progressive role to play. For what its worth I would argue that nation states will dissappear prior to the dissapearance of nations. First we must disconnect the state from the nation. But eventually both must go we simply cannot afford such absurdities. But for a while to come yet I suspect the virus will continue to reproduce itself.

You also write that "There will soon be a few more nations in the world" and mention Palestine as one such nation. I've news for you chum but the Palestinians have constituted a nation for many years now the point is their teritory has been stolen from them by the Zionist entity. You also mention 
Southern Sudan and SADR (Saharawi Arab Democratic Republic-Western Sahara) as similar nations about to appear. I cannot comment on Southern Sudan but the Saharawi nation has been forged in struggle these last 30 odd years again you confuse nation with nation-state. There is no legitimate reason to conflate the two concepts. As for Somaliland its a state not a nation. Ditto Transdnistria which is a geographical term nothing more.


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## lewislewis (Oct 15, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Lewis chill a little. This is bulletin board it's not a matter of life and death what we say here.
> 
> Look I really don't mind that you don't give a toss about marxism. But if you wanna debate you're just going to have to get used to people using terms like bourgeois if they so choose. And the way i see things Plaid defends bourgeois society which makes it a bourgeois party.
> 
> ...



I do not subscribe to the idea that nationalism is a single ideology- Welsh nationalism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, and has nothing to do with Russian/Serb/whatever nationalism or other forms of nationalism in Eastern Europe. As for 'fascism and neo-liberalism' are nationalist ideologies, that's clearly bullshit. There is no one person who has written down a rulebook or theory for nationalism, it is a social and cultural reality based in tribal experience, not an invented political theory.

Not being funny, but you clearly did state that nation states are disappearing- 'I have news for you chum, they already are.' Quite confused as to how you can deny what you said! Whatever happens to the state, the nation will still be the fundamental concept upon which future territorial entities are based. Surely you can't argue this!

When i mentioned newly created nations its quite easy to see i meant nation-states as opposed to stateless nations...to infer that I don't see the Palestinians or Saharawis as a nation is moronic.
To suggest that i don't regard the Saharawi as a nation is idiotic and insulting, i support their struggle and follow it closely. Southern Sudan is an autonomous entity that will hold a referendum on independence within the next ten years as part of the peace process in Sudan. Somaliland is a functioning nation-state that is unrecognised by any other countries, and has a cultural heritage of being British-colonised rather than the rest of Somalia which was Italian-colonised. Transdnistria is another unrecognised state in Eastern Europe with a functioning government, alot more than a simple 'geographical term' as you suggest.

What is important is what you claim you did not say about the disappearance of nation-states, and the misguided way you reconcile nationalism in Eastern Europe with Welsh nationalism.

Roger, i am chilled.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 15, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I do not subscribe to the idea that nationalism is a single ideology- Welsh nationalism has nothing to do with race or ethnicity, and has nothing to do with Russian/Serb/whatever nationalism or other forms of nationalism in Eastern Europe. As for 'fascism and neo-liberalism' are nationalist ideologies, that's clearly bullshit. There is no one person who has written down a rulebook or theory for nationalism, it is a social and cultural reality based in tribal experience, not an invented political theory.
> 
> Not being funny, but you clearly did state that nation states are disappearing- 'I have news for you chum, they already are.' Quite confused as to how you can deny what you said! Whatever happens to the state, the nation will still be the fundamental concept upon which future territorial entities are based. Surely you can't argue this!
> 
> ...



Lets begin on a point we can agree upon nationalism is not a single ideology. Each and every nationalism is unique and different. The trouble is that they are all very much alike and clearly do form a category well known to political science. The idea that nations are based on tribes as you say is also an obviouis nonsense my friend. Like it or lump it nations are imagined communities to quote one such political theorist (Benedict Anderson).

Lewis it is very clear that nation states are slowly dissapearing in Europe and North America at very least. The very identity of many nations is being undermined and made meaningless with the increasingly heterogenous populations of these countries and their partial fusion into bodies such as the EU and NATO. In other parts of the world nations have not even appeared as yet (large parts of Africa) and the concept makes little sense except when used by bourgeois political scientists. Only they could be so daft as to describe say Liberia as a nation state! But it is nations which are really being undermined by economic and political developments not the nation state. I suspect what we are seeing in the new born (or reborn in many cases) states of the former Russian Empire is a last grotesque explosion of nationalism. May it pass soon! And yes I do dispute that in the fiture that there will be any need to organise the world into nations. Why should there be?

Look as for the Saharawi and the Palesinians I do not suggest that you do not consider them to be nations. All I can go on is what you wrote and in that case you failed to disentangle the very different concepts of nation and nation-state. It strikes me that for you the two are barely, if at all, seperable. For me they are very diffferent.

Now as for Equatorial Africa, as Southern Sudan was once know, it is not a nation. But it may become one due to the struggle of its christian and animist African population to free themselves from domination by the Muslim and Arab north. Which illustrates how the nationalism virus travals by a process of contagion.

On Somaliland your concept of nation-state again seems a bit odd. Yopu know commentators used to talk of the Somalis as the only nation in Africa which consisted of one tribe and one tribe only. Now you would have this one tribe nation form two nation-states? Look I'm sorry chum but Somaliland is not a nation in any bodies terms except yours which are just a bit arbitrary.

Transdinistra is no kind of a nation either but the creation of Russian colonisation. Its very existeance is tribute to the Great Russian chauvinism of the Stalinist Czars in the Kremlin. It was created and is maintianed as part of an effort to maintain Russian hegemony in the region and is an affront to the real nations of the region.


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## Karac (Oct 15, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Lewis it is very clear that nation states are slowly dissapearing in Europe and North America at very least. The very identity of many nations is being undermined and made meaningless with the increasingly heterogenous populations of these countries and their partial fusion into bodies such as the EU and NATO. In other parts of the world nations have not even appeared as yet (large parts of Africa) and the concept makes little sense except when used by bourgeois political scientists. Only they could be so daft as to describe say Liberia as a nation state! But it is nations which are really being undermined by economic and political developments not the nation state. I suspect what we are seeing in the new born (or reborn in many cases) states of the former Russian Empire is a last grotesque explosion of nationalism. May it pass soon! And yes I do dispute that in the fiture that there will be any need to organise the world into nations.


No-Nation States are appearing -at least in Europe and probably all over the Globe.
Its not a reactionary movement.
Why the fuck shouldnt former states of the former Russian Empire have there own countries?
Are you a Stalinist?
You of course fail to see the Russian Nationalism that lead to the subjugation of these countries-unless of course it was "for their own good"


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## niclas (Oct 15, 2005)

Roger Rosewall manages to say, in successive postings, that:

"The logic of nationalism is clearly racist as by definition nationalism is an exclusive thing."

and

"Lets begin on a point we can agree upon nationalism is not a single ideology. Each and every nationalism is unique and different." 

By this reckoning then each and every "nationalism" is clearly racist. The Palestinians? The Irish republican movement? Mandela? Sandinistas? 

And in what way is Welsh national liberation or self-determination racist?


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## roger rosewall (Oct 16, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> No-Nation States are appearing -at least in Europe and probably all over the Globe.
> Its not a reactionary movement.
> Why the fuck shouldnt former states of the former Russian Empire have there own countries?
> Are you a Stalinist?
> You of course fail to see the Russian Nationalism that lead to the subjugation of these countries-unless of course it was "for their own good"



Karac please pay attention.

If you had been paying attention then you would have noticed that I have made reference to the Russian Empire a number of times. I welcome the disintegration of that Empire. You may also have noticed my reference to Transdeniestra as an articifical state created by Russian imperialism.

But the collapse of the USSR into warring nation states is in no sense progressive or a good thing. Now the workers and peasants of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and former USSR are lumbered with a bunch of mutually hostile nation states rather than being oppressed by a single multi-national state. I'll bet that makes all the difference when they are burying their children in Grozny.

As a revolutionary communist, therefore a far better enemy of Stalinism than you could even concieve of being, I support the right of these nations to form their own states should they wish. But the idea that some little nation state can be anything but a puppet of imperialism is a sick joke.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 16, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Roger Rosewall manages to say, in successive postings, that:
> 
> "The logic of nationalism is clearly racist as by definition nationalism is an exclusive thing."
> 
> ...



Debating with nationalists is painful as you take offence even when it is not offered.   

Look you my argument is that each individual nationalism is, by definition, exclusivist. That is it defines itself by what is unique and exclusive to it. This can, under specific circumstances lead to the development of racist tendencies. That is what I mean by the logic of nationalism. In no way is this suggesting that at present that Welsh nationalists are racists as you would seem to think.

That said there are clear and obvious chauvinist and even racist tendencies within Welsh nationalism. Or at least there have been in the near past. Or do the anti-English sentiments expressed by leading nationalists not count? Such sentiments are not typical of Welsh nationalism today but in a crisis situation there is no reason to believe that Welsh nationalism would be immune from degenerating in that direction.

As for your examples of nationalisms, which I presume you are suggesting are not racist, it displays the fact that you are not as well informed as you might be. For example the Palestinian cause - which I support - has been cursed by a degree of anti-Jewish chauvinism and I differentiate between that and anti-Zionism. For example the Mufti of Jerusalem was happy to make racist statements against Jews and today some elements within the Islamist wing of the Palestinian national movement hold such views. As for the Sandinistas perhaps you are unaware of their poor relations with the Miskito minority when they were first in power? And I'm afraid St Mandela is not immune either and has in the past taken a concilatory stance in regard to the chauvinist Inkatha movement. Perhaps his worst error, in my view, was his failure to have the boss class eliminated when it was possible.


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## nwnm (Oct 16, 2005)

This is getting a bit tedious to be honest. Thought it might be useful for those interested to read what some marxist theoreticians have written about nationalism and national liberation struggles in the past. Click on the links if you want. It might make the discussion a bit more interesting   

http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1916/jan/x01.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1897/01/socnat.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/connolly/1897/xx/scirenat.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/works/1939/1939-ukraine.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1963/xx/permrev.htm


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## niclas (Oct 16, 2005)

Roger Rosewall said: "Debating with nationalists is painful as you take offence even when it is not offered.   "

No offence taken - I'm not a nationalist. I'm a socialist who believes that the cause of Wales is the cause of labour and vice versa (to misquote Connolly).

RR: "My argument is that each individual nationalism is, by definition, exclusivist. That is it defines itself by what is unique and exclusive to it. This can, under specific circumstances lead to the development of racist tendencies. That is what I mean by the logic of nationalism. In no way is this suggesting that at present that Welsh nationalists are racists as you would seem to think."

My reason for quoting you earlier was to try to clarify what you were saying - you had said that the logic of every nationalism was racist. Now you're saying this can, under specific circumstances, lead to racist tendencies. 

If I was to say that socialism tends towards genocide and totalitarianism, I'd be completely wrong, but there are enough examples to make the smear stick.

The establishment and media have tried to tar any Welsh liberation movement (and others) with the "racist" tag. It's disappointing that leftists do the same, consciously or unconsciously.

The reason I raised the Palestinians and others was because of the double standards of some on the left. I don't see the same questioning and condemnation of the Palestinians as "racists" - and of course some elements are - as we find when Welsh self-determination is raised as an aspiration.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 16, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Roger Rosewall said: "Debating with nationalists is painful as you take offence even when it is not offered.   "
> 
> No offence taken - I'm not a nationalist. I'm a socialist who believes that the cause of Wales is the cause of labour and vice versa (to misquote Connolly).
> 
> ...



If for you the cause of labour be the cause of Wales then I take it that under current circumstances you oppose Welsh nationalism and the call for an independent Welsh state?

If you were to say that socialism tends towards genocide and totalitarianism then i would be forced to point out that it would seem that you are innocent of any understanding of socialism. Stalinism, the ideology which you confuse with socialism, was the antithesis of socialism and in no sense a form of it.

Again on nationalism you mistake my point. My argument is that all nationalisms contain within them a tendency, a tendency no more and no less, towards racism. Whether or not this tendency develops is dependent on external factors but it is nonetheless ever present in an ideology that is by its nature exclusivist.

I'm sorry you do not like my pointing out that Welsh nationalism is not immune from this tendency and does contain within it exclusivist and possibvly racist tendencies. Despite your protestations this has been cause enough for concern within the mainstream of Welsh nationalism, Plaid Cymru, that they were forced to deal with the problem publically not too long ago.

It's good you mention Palestine and double standards because I agree with you entirely on this. In fact you will note that I briefly discussed the racist tendencies within some sections of the Palestinian national movement. Those leftists who are unable to face such problems in causes they support do both themselves and the cause of socialism no favour at all.

PS My thanks to Nwnm for posting links from my political tradition. I hope the nationalists involved in this exchnage follow them up. I would also recommend a reading of Rosa Luxemburgs and Roman Rosdolskys work for a fuller understanding of the Marxist view of the national question.


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## nwnm (Oct 16, 2005)

Here are some more links. Some on palestine - 

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1946/me/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1982/04/isrviol.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1990/10/struggleme.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/cliff/works/1998/05/israel.htm

And as they have been mentioned Rosa Luxemburg - 

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1909/national-question/index.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1905/misc/polish-question.htm

http://www.marxists.org/archive/luxemburg/1896/07/polish-question.htm

It has to be said that I personally favour Lenin over Luxemburg, and all have to be read through an historical lense. I think that others posting on here are a bit more Luxemburgist. Even I would be a bit remiss to claim to be the representative of any particular tradition. Remember that quote from Marx when he saw what some people argued in his name, "all I know is I am no Marxist!". It would be nice to know if people had gone through some of the links and whether they gained anything from them, or what their opinions were (if not its a pointless exercise). It would also be nice if other people flagged up stuff they thought worth reading similarly. You never know we might end up having more of a dialogue and less of a monologue that way


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## lewislewis (Oct 16, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Lets begin on a point we can agree upon nationalism is not a single ideology. Each and every nationalism is unique and different. The trouble is that they are all very much alike and clearly do form a category well known to political science. The idea that nations are based on tribes as you say is also an obviouis nonsense my friend. Like it or lump it nations are imagined communities to quote one such political theorist (Benedict Anderson).
> 
> Lewis it is very clear that nation states are slowly dissapearing in Europe and North America at very least. The very identity of many nations is being undermined and made meaningless with the increasingly heterogenous populations of these countries and their partial fusion into bodies such as the EU and NATO. In other parts of the world nations have not even appeared as yet (large parts of Africa) and the concept makes little sense except when used by bourgeois political scientists. Only they could be so daft as to describe say Liberia as a nation state! But it is nations which are really being undermined by economic and political developments not the nation state. I suspect what we are seeing in the new born (or reborn in many cases) states of the former Russian Empire is a last grotesque explosion of nationalism. May it pass soon! And yes I do dispute that in the fiture that there will be any need to organise the world into nations. Why should there be?
> 
> ...



My concept of a nation state is an independent state operating on the terms of a nation, born through tribal history or ethnicity, cultural history or other historic occurence.

Welsh Nationalism is a Welsh idea and is not violent/racist or whatever, the history of racism in the Labour and Conservative parties (as well as their racist policies in government) is far more damning than the presence of racism in Plaid Cymru.

Welsh Nationalism is a response to the British nationalism espoused by the London establishment. For conditional reasons, Welsh nationalism has had a cultural and especially language-based focus. However, Welsh nationalism remains a home-grown, popular political ideology. 

Furthermore, i believe nations occur naturally due to human tribal instinct, though i allow that this instinct is often shaped by historical events such as colonialism or war. Unseen powers do not 'organise the world' into nations. No black-suited imperialist agent has come to a Plaid Cymru meeting and instructed us to be Welsh ?! 

Umm, no nation-states aren't disappearing in Europe. Name some nation-states that have disappeared from Europe in the past 20 years? The Soviet Union for one, i'm sure you'll enlighten me on any others. Then name some nation-states that have appeared in Europe in the past 20 years- there are loads. Basically, this means you're wrong.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 17, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> My concept of a nation state is an independent state operating on the terms of a nation, born through tribal history or ethnicity, cultural history or other historic occurence.
> 
> Welsh Nationalism is a Welsh idea and is not violent/racist or whatever, the history of racism in the Labour and Conservative parties (as well as their racist policies in government) is far more damning than the presence of racism in Plaid Cymru.
> 
> ...



Lewis I'm struck by the sheer vagueness of your definition of Welsh nationalism. What you say about Welsh nationalism could have been and I'm sure has been written in relation to many if not all nationalisms. Yet each and every nationalism is distinct and unique!

It is interesting that you write that Welsh nationalism is a response to British nationalism. Quite so and before the development of British nationalism the very idea of Welsh nationaliosm could not exist. In short Welsh nationalism is not a Welsh idea but is a reaction to another nationalism as are all nationalisms. For the good reason that nationalism did not exist prior to the development of the capitalist mode of production and there is no reason to presume that it will outlive bourgeois society. Quite the reverse in fact.

You go on to argue that Welsh nationalism is for contingent reasons language based but this is simply the expression of a tribal instinct. This sounds to me very much like the 19th century romantic nationalisms that were a contributory factor to the rise of modern racist movements. As i pointed out [previously nationalims are exclusivist in their nature and an appeal to tribal loyalties is very exclusivist is it not?

Lewis what do you say to those of us in Wales who do not want to beling to your tribe? (Or for that matter to any tribe). What do you say to that part of the population that does not bear the marks of your tribe which you have already mentioned is defined in part by language? Already if you will define nation by tribal instinct you are a long ways down the road to the racist volkisch tyope ideas that gave rise to the Nazis.

But what of your vision of an independent Wales Lewis? How independent is it to be? Will it withdraw from the EU? From NATO? The UN? Lets be clear Plaids vision is of a Wales that remains within, at least some, of these imperialist bodes. Bodies to which nation states and multi-national states n=both delegate some of their soveriegn powers and thereby partially negate their nature as nation states.

I've not touched on much of what you write, it's late, and I do hope you reply but please do not take offence at my coments regarding your views. lets keep this exchange clean. Remember we share a common enemy which we both wish to destroy in the british state.

Btw the USSR was a prison house of nations not a nation state.

To Nmyn. Good links nice to see you weorking from archives I've contributed to the building, at least the Cliff archive. I should just say that I'm not a Luxemburgist on the national question. That said it is oft neglected that both Luxemburg and Lenin foresaw, as orthodox Marxists, the elimination of the national idea and worked toward that happy day. There is more unity in their thought on the national question than is usually acknowledged.


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## chilango (Oct 17, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Chilango!!!!
> 
> Why you telling porkies?
> 
> ...



Sussed I see.  

Congratulate Phil when see him next...

I may be in Britain in the summer, PM/Email me and we can arrange to get him his deposit back!


Porkies? No. Other than semantically, what have i said that is untrue? 

You were there too...


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## roger rosewall (Oct 17, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Sussed I see.
> 
> Congratulate Phil when see him next...
> 
> ...



Had you sussed looooong ago.

I can't think of a good reason why you would want to visit Britain to be honest. But if you do then we should have a few sherbets.

I'll say hey to Phil of course. When he can be reached on cloud 9.

Yeah porkies guy cos you wus never an 'organiser' in the sense of being a fulltimer which seemed to be suggested.But yeah a lot of bad stupid shit went down. Given a lot of it was directed at me I remember all too fuckin' well.

I'll e mail you ok?


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## chilango (Oct 17, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Had you sussed looooong ago.
> 
> I can't think of a good reason why you would want to visit Britain to be honest. But if you do then we should have a few sherbets.
> 
> ...




It´d be a pleasure... ...though I´m pretty much off the beer these days.

Yeah okay "organiser" I never meant "fulltimer" I forget my actual title "President" or "Chair" of SWSS wasn´t it? Sounds even wankier, no? (yeah I know appropriate as I had my fair share of wanker moments...for which i apologise   )


Yeah a LOT of bad shit, incompatible with a group calling itself revolutionary. Its not been forgotten as you can probably tell. The conversation in the The Taf on physical force against fascism and what it was portrayed as? A fuckin´ disgrace mate.

And if our Al didn´t speak Welsh would we have had any Welsh posters? No. Who did the Welsh ANL badge? (incorrectly too!  ) They didn´t (the CC and fulltimers) give a shit. I doubt they do now.


looking forward to the eamil.


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## nwnm (Oct 17, 2005)

"And if our Al didn´t speak Welsh would we have had any Welsh posters?"
Had them before Al joined, have them after he left......

Cut the crap - sour grapes will never make a decent bottle of wine


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## niclas (Oct 18, 2005)

Roger rosewall: "If for you the cause of labour be the cause of Wales then I take it that under current circumstances you oppose Welsh nationalism and the call for an independent Welsh state?"

Why would I oppose an independent socialist Wales?

And Roger didn't get my ironic point about socialism re Stalinism either. Never mind.

All the smileys in the world ain't gonna work on this thread


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## roger rosewall (Oct 18, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Roger rosewall: "If for you the cause of labour be the cause of Wales then I take it that under current circumstances you oppose Welsh nationalism and the call for an independent Welsh state?"
> 
> Why would I oppose an independent socialist Wales?(



Because it would not be of benefit to the working class to advocate such a course of action.

Which is pretty much the ssnwer you must have expected.

Perhaps you can explain to me what you mean by an independent socialist Wales?

Would it belong to imperialist bodies such as the EU, NATO or UN?

Would it have immigration laws?

Would it seek to form a federal union with other socialist countries?

PS Have you heard tell of the concept of Socialism in One Country?


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## roger rosewall (Oct 18, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> It´d be a pleasure... ...though I´m pretty much off the beer these days.
> 
> Yeah okay "organiser" I never meant "fulltimer" I forget my actual title "President" or "Chair" of SWSS wasn´t it? Sounds even wankier, no? (yeah I know appropriate as I had my fair share of wanker moments...for which i apologise   )
> 
> ...



I'll get back to you by e mail. I actually did mean sherbet you know.

I thought the Welsh ANL badge was first done back in 1978 btw. Leastways I have one of that vintage.


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## niclas (Oct 18, 2005)

*Question time*

"Because it would not be of benefit to the working class to advocate such a course of action."

Why? I think it would be of enormous benefit for the international working class to break up the British imperialist state. Just look at the UK's role in previous and present imperialist wars. 
 Please don't give us that crap about splitting up the working class - workers already organise across state boundaries, my union being a prime example. That's a tendency that can only increase with globalisation. National liberation and international socialism are two sides of the same struggle against international capitalism.

"Perhaps you can explain to me what you mean by an independent socialist Wales?"

Workers' control over industry and communities. A sustainable decentralist democracy. Within a socialist Europe and a socialist world of course. Presumably it's what you want for a British socialist republic - isn't that what you want? 

"Would it belong to imperialist bodies such as the EU, NATO or UN?"

NATO - no; EU - yes, if it was a Europe of the peoples rather than a capitalist super-state; UN - yes, along with virtually every other country in the world. The WTO is a greater threat than the UN.

Would your British socialist republic withdraw from all three?

"Would it have immigration laws?"

If you mean racist anti-immigration laws, no. Free movement of labour. Just like your British socialist republic?

"Would it seek to form a federal union with other socialist countries?"

Of course we're looking for allies - we're internationalists not isolationists like some Little Englanders. A federal socialist Europe sounds good.

"PS Have you heard tell of the concept of Socialism in One Country?"

Yep, Cuba's nice at this time of the year  

Who suggested we stop at Wales? 

Does the whole world have to rise up at the same time for socialism to work?
Shall we tell the Venezuelans not to bother until we're ready?   

And how would a British Socialist Republic survive in splendid isolation?


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "And if our Al didn´t speak Welsh would we have had any Welsh posters?"
> Had them before Al joined, have them after he left......
> 
> Cut the crap - sour grapes will never make a decent bottle of wine



Well we never had them in Cardiff...unless someone hid em all...

Sour Grapes or revisionism on yr part?

Point still remains that I don´t think the SWP are credible in a discussion on the Welsh Question. Because of their historical lack of concern with Welsh issues and because they really don´t see it as an important issue (as elucidated above by several posters) which is fine, but puts the prospect of a united Welsh left into the realms of impossibilty.


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> I thought the Welsh ANL badge was first done back in 1978 btw. Leastways I have one of that vintage.




...and you know as well as I do that the ANL mark1 and the ANL mark2 were very different kettle of fish.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 18, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Point still remains that I don´t think the SWP are credible in a discussion on the Welsh Question. Because of their historical lack of concern with Welsh issues and because they really don´t see it as an important issue (as elucidated above by several posters) which is fine, but puts the prospect of a united Welsh left into the realms of impossibilty.



Whats to unite? And on what program?

Sorry old chum but you reject the SWP's position on Welsh nationalism because you reject Marxism and International Socialism. It's that simple.


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## lewislewis (Oct 18, 2005)

Hi everyone thats following this thread still..have been busy so haven't replied.

Roger, modern Welsh nationalism is a Welsh idea (where else could it come from   ) and is not a reaction but an evolved response to the imperialist mentality of the British nationalist state. If you need an understanding of Welsh nationalism (you clearly do) then I would suggest reading up on it at least a little! Of course this has existed in other forms before industrialisation...look at the resistance to the Roman occupation, Saxon invasions and later English invasions, this happens all over the world of course. This might harm your political aspirations for Wales, but sorry its alot more popular than whatever you seem to be offering?

Although you're well-equipped intellectually, I think you're quite ignorant in refusing to accept that Wales is to the left as a nation, of England. English workers vote consistently for right-wing parties. Welsh workers vote for the percieved leftist alternatives, that's why the Tories never have more than a handful of seats here, although with an increase of English migration and the growth of the Welsh middle-classes the Tories appear to be on the increase in Wales.

Socialism is more likely to come from an independent Wales, than a multi-national British kingdom.

Roger; "You go on to argue that Welsh nationalism is for contingent reasons language based but this is simply the expression of a tribal instinct. This sounds to me very much like the 19th century romantic nationalisms that were a contributory factor to the rise of modern racist movements. As i pointed out [previously nationalims are exclusivist in their nature and an appeal to tribal loyalties is very exclusivist is it not?

Lewis what do you say to those of us in Wales who do not want to beling to your tribe? (Or for that matter to any tribe). What do you say to that part of the population that does not bear the marks of your tribe which you have already mentioned is defined in part by language? Already if you will define nation by tribal instinct you are a long ways down the road to the racist volkisch tyope ideas that gave rise to the Nazis."

Historically, Welsh nationalism had to be based on culture, language and religion, because of the lack of Welsh political institutions. This is changing now, and that's why Welsh national consciousness is growing regardless of language. Gwynfor Evans wrote that 'loyalty to Wales is the essence of Welsh nationalism'. Seeing as 80% of Wales do not speak Welsh, the essence of Welsh nationalism would be removed if it appealed only to Welsh-speakers. Modern Wales is a multi-cultural, multi-lingual concept, and it helps that some of our most patriotic comrades are from ethnic minorities, be they English, Somali, Indian or Pakistani. I don't understand why you wouldn't want to join this tribe if you live here? Everybody is welcome !

I would want Wales to be part of a federal Europe, and would work to making that a socialist Europe. My vision for Wales is much the same as the vision suggested by Niclas, and as an internationalist i would welcome co-operation and integration with other peoples. Wales has a great international history so i don't think this will be a problem. I draw my inspiration currently from revolutionary states such as Venezuela and to a lesser extent Cuba (though the Cuban experience is shaped by the US economic blockade), and I would want a very radical Wales that would not be afraid to shake up the international system. I'd love Wales to be very controversial and radical within the UN. I would not want Wales to join NATO. Whether the Welsh people would agree with my vision for Wales after independence is another matter.

Those are my main points. You didn't deal with my argument; how is the nation-state dying when dozens have appeared and none disappeared in the last two decades? I'd like you to explain yourself on this (and my other points hopefully).

I'm interested in keeping this exchange clean Roger, and i enjoy debating with you : )


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Whats to unite? And on what program?
> 
> Sorry old chum but you reject the SWP's position on Welsh nationalism because you reject Marxism and International Socialism. It's that simple.




well, we were talking about FW (and the WSA incidentally) and what went wrong.

Now, as you know, I don´t see much future in that kind of thing, nor do you. However there will be repeated attempts no doubt that will fail, so how do we respond? Here we differ. 

And, yes, I do reject Marxism and International Socialism, I also reject nationalism. I think we need to look at the shortcomings of both in order to work out what the hell we do now.


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## chilango (Oct 18, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I draw my inspiration currently from revolutionary states such as Venezuela and to a lesser extent Cuba (though the Cuban experience is shaped by the US economic blockade), and I would want a very radical Wales that would not be afraid to shake up the international system. I'd love Wales to be very controversial and radical within the UN. I would not want Wales to join NATO. Whether the Welsh people would agree with my vision for Wales after independence is another matter.





Venezuela eh? Whilst I´m pretty chuffed at some of the things Chavez is doing, e.g. booting out the New Tribes Mission is excellent news, I´m very wary of him being any sort of role model, there is still every chance he could become another Peron...and Cuba is no paradise either. I don´t see much from these places anyway that would translate in the EU. Is some kinda socialist state possible within that framework? I doubt it.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 18, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Why? I think it would be of enormous benefit for the international working class to break up the British imperialist state. Just look at the UK's role in previous and present imperialist wars.
> Please don't give us that crap about splitting up the working class - workers already organise across state boundaries, my union being a prime example. That's a tendency that can only increase with globalisation. National liberation and international socialism are two sides of the same struggle against international capitalism.
> 
> Workers' control over industry and communities. A sustainable decentralist democracy. Within a socialist Europe and a socialist world of course. Presumably it's what you want for a British socialist republic - isn't that what you want?
> ...



Jeez i got some questions answered. makes a change I must say. Ok some replies in the same order.

First of all the break up of the British bourgeois state need not mean the separation of Wales. Given the economic and social ties between the two the dislocation caused would be enormous and extremely damaging.

'National liberation' and International Socialism do not share an identity as you suggest. The national idea can and has been used by reaction as with the Whites during the Wars of Intervention against Soviet Russia and currently with the role of the KDP and PUK in Iraqi Kurdistan.

What makes you think I want a british socialist republic? I never use the term socialist republic in any case as it represents very sloppy thinking. I'm out for a workers republic as a step towards communism which will mean the complete negation of nations along with other bad stuff. Whether that is achieved on an all-British or Welsh basis as a first step is immaterial.

Thye EU cannot be a Europe of the Peoples. The EU cannot be reformed anymore than capitalism can be destroyed at the national level by a process of reform. To suggest otherwise as you do is reformist. The UN is a cop for the capitalists how can you even think of remaining within it? You go on about national liberation but the UN has policed too many countries attempting to escape colonialism for me to take you seriously if you support it. Look with these international combines like UN, EU, WTO, NATO and the rest its all or nothing chum.

I see you like Cuba. I like workers democracy which the tyrant Castro and his state capitalist pals do not.


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## lewislewis (Oct 18, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Venezuela eh? Whilst I´m pretty chuffed at some of the things Chavez is doing, e.g. booting out the New Tribes Mission is excellent news, I´m very wary of him being any sort of role model, there is still every chance he could become another Peron...and Cuba is no paradise either. I don´t see much from these places anyway that would translate in the EU. Is some kinda socialist state possible within that framework? I doubt it.



The way they handle their internal affairs is little concern of mine- i mean their international position and the role they play within the UN and their regional organisations (mercosur, and the new EU equivalent being built in South America).


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## roger rosewall (Oct 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The way they handle their internal affairs is little concern of mine- i mean their international position and the role they play within the UN and their regional organisations (mercosur, and the new EU equivalent being built in South America).



If you were an international socialist you would view their internal affairs as your concern. You see you would understand that the working class is an international class and the struggles of workers in Caracas are every bit as much the concern of workers in Cardiff as struggles of workers in Caerfilli are. But you are a 'national' socialist which is no kind of socialist at all.


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## niclas (Oct 19, 2005)

Roger:"The break up of the British bourgeois state need not mean the separation of Wales. Given the economic and social ties between the two the dislocation caused would be enormous and extremely damaging."

In what way? If the break-up of the British state doesn't involve self-determination for Wales, then it wouldn't be much of an improvement. This seems to be a defence of the present boundaries of the British state. 

RR: "'National liberation' and International Socialism do not share an identity as you suggest. The national idea can and has been used by reaction as with the Whites during the Wars of Intervention against Soviet Russia and currently with the role of the KDP and PUK in Iraqi Kurdistan."

The current Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela places great emphasis on national liberation (both in a historical and modern context) from US and latterly multinational imperialism, as the reference to Simon Bolivar would suggest. That's one example. Of course nationalism (e.g. Ulster or White South African) can be reactionary but that's not what I was talking about and RR knows it. Perhaps he can name me a socialist revolution that has not had a national liberation/anti-imperialist component.

RR: "What makes you think I want a british socialist republic? I never use the term socialist republic in any case as it represents very sloppy thinking. I'm out for a workers republic as a step towards communism which will mean the complete negation of nations along with other bad stuff. Whether that is achieved on an all-British or Welsh basis as a first step is immaterial."

More Lennon than Lenin... imagine all the people. RR has already made it clear that he favours a British rather than Welsh basis because of the enormous social and economic dislocations (never mind that that's what revolutions do!). A British workers' republic differs from a British socialist republic in what way?
 An additional problem with this mechanistic and abstract idea of communism of one people, one language, one culture is that we will still have to communicate using a common language. It's likely to be English, which is convenient for the users of this bulletin, myself included. But the loss of the other 5,000 languages in the world, including my own first language, would mean losing a treasure house of culture. The colour that diverse nations and cultures bring to the world would disappear. Communism as described here sounds a very grey, top-down, monolithic future.

RR: "The EU cannot be a Europe of the Peoples. The EU cannot be reformed anymore than capitalism can be destroyed at the national level by a process of reform. To suggest otherwise as you do is reformist. The UN is a cop for the capitalists how can you even think of remaining within it? You go on about national liberation but the UN has policed too many countries attempting to escape colonialism for me to take you seriously if you support it. Look with these international combines like UN, EU, WTO, NATO and the rest its all or nothing chum."

A federal socialist Europe sounds good - agreed? A united world body sounds good - agreed? I'm with you on the UN - it has been the US writ large for most of its life. But whether it's called the UN or not, it's still going to be a united world body.

RR: "I see you like Cuba. I like workers democracy which the tyrant Castro and his state capitalist pals do not."

The achievements of the Cuban people are immense, given the economic blockade, military attacks and the island's poverty of resources. I don't uncritically support Castro (his record on gays, dissidents and over-dependence on the USSR deserves criticism) but give me Cuba's actual achievements any day rather than the abstract drivel that masquerades as "revolutionary socialism".


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## nwnm (Oct 19, 2005)

“Because of their historical lack of concern with Welsh issues and because they really don´t see it as an important issue (as elucidated above by several posters) which is fine, but puts the prospect of a united Welsh left into the realms of impossibilty. 
well, we were talking about FW (and the WSA incidentally) and what went wrong.
Now, as you know, I don´t see much future in that kind of thing…. However there will be repeated attempts no doubt that will fail, so how do we respond?” i.e. only people who agree with you are allowed to join the club, and anyone who doesn’t is doomed to failure. Now that would make a united Welsh left an impossibility



I think lewislewis has a point when he writes “Historically, Welsh nationalism had to be based on culture, language and religion, because of the lack of Welsh political institutions. This is changing now, and that's why Welsh national consciousness is growing regardless of language” (It has to be pointed out that some of that culture/identity was created by a bunch of business men known as the ’London Welsh’.) I think there has been a stirring of national ’consciousness’ but this let alone nationalism par se is contradictory. There is a well salaried group of people who work in the Assembly/local media who are doing very nicely out of this. A stroll around Pontcanna in Cardiff will introduce you to these. This has led to a situation of rocketing house prices whereby locals can no longer afford to buy. Sounds familiar doesn’t it? Only rather than people buying holiday homes we have our own variant of the yuppie. 

At the same time as this you have the Welsh bosses at the South Wales Evening Post sacking  70 printers/van drivers, whilst getting the bloody thing printed in England. This is where nationalism gets onto shaky ground. Who do you blame for the housing crisis and who do you blame for the job losses? Do you blame the job losses on the English Workers or the Welsh bosses implementing the cuts their company wants? Do you laud one group of people for pricing people out of the housing market and denounce another lot for being English settlers? Or do you recognise all these as part of the ravages of the capitalist system and fight for workers rights and cheap, affordable housing for all. (i.e. no to council sell offs, yes to a council house building programme).

I don’t think lewislewis is a  ‘national’ socialist of any sort - he is trying to understand the relationship between nationalism, internationalism and socialism. That and the prospects for the left in Wales is a useful discussion


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## lewislewis (Oct 19, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> If you were an international socialist you would view their internal affairs as your concern. You see you would understand that the working class is an international class and the struggles of workers in Caracas are every bit as much the concern of workers in Cardiff as struggles of workers in Caerfilli are. But you are a 'national' socialist which is no kind of socialist at all.



That's fine, except that by and large the workers in Caerfilli and Caerdydd don't have a clue what is going on in Venezuela (my work mates don't at least)...they'd rather their own country was sorted out first, before worrying about the internal dynamics of the Bolivarian revolution. However, the more politically astute of my friends might admire the anti-US stance taken by Venezuela, and the way Castro has opposed US consistently, and the way the Cuban workers have built one of the most equal socities in the world. But like i said, we're more worried about Wales than Venezuela.

How about answering my previous post?


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## lewislewis (Oct 19, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> I don’t think lewislewis is a  ‘national’ socialist of any sort - he is trying to understand the relationship between nationalism, internationalism and socialism. That and the prospects for the left in Wales is a useful discussion



I welcome that.

'Nationalism' or whatever you want to call it, has been part of the Welsh left since before Plaid Cymru was ever around. Roger Rosewall's strange ideas have not had anywhere near as large an audience. This should be considered when talking about the prospects for the left in Wales. If Roger's group don't want to recognise the validity of the national question, we'll carry on doing our own thing and doing it well.


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## niclas (Oct 19, 2005)

NWNM: "At the same time as this you have the Welsh bosses at the South Wales Evening Post sacking  70 printers/van drivers, whilst getting the bloody thing printed in England. This is where nationalism gets onto shaky ground. Who do you blame for the housing crisis and who do you blame for the job losses? Do you blame the job losses on the English Workers or the Welsh bosses implementing the cuts their company wants? Do you laud one group of people for pricing people out of the housing market and denounce another lot for being English settlers? Or do you recognise all these as part of the ravages of the capitalist system and fight for workers rights and cheap, affordable housing for all. (i.e. no to council sell offs, yes to a council house building programme)."

The Swansea print switch is a class issue and Welsh bosses are no better than any other when it comes to doing what comes naturally - profiting from their workers wherever they may be. 
 But there's an unfortunate tendency on the left to set up false arguments. Are there any nationalists condemning English workers for "taking Welsh jobs"? Don't think so.
 In my experience, Plaid people have fought alongside socialists over pit closures, the poll tax, the environment, council stock transfer and for affordable housing. 

 On affordable housing, it's a problem throughout Wales. Whether it's Porthmadog or Pontcanna, it's a class issue - well-off outsiders making it difficult for local people to stay in the area where they grew up. Nothing racist about slagging off yuppies. The problem is that when people in Porthmadog make themselves heard, they're denounced as racists by the British media, British Labour and some of the British left.

Similarly with holiday homes, half the second homes in Wales are owned by people from Wales. Some of the homes set on fire by Meibion Glyndwr were owned by Welsh people.

There may be nationalists who take pride in the Welsh-language colonisation of Pontcanna, but I ain't heard of them. Anyway, isn't Plaid Cymru more successful amongst the moslem community in Riverside?

Glad to see NWNM taking issue with the "national socialist" slur against lewislewis.


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## niclas (Oct 19, 2005)

RR: "If you were an international socialist you would view their internal affairs as your concern. You see you would understand that the working class is an international class and the struggles of workers in Caracas are every bit as much the concern of workers in Cardiff as struggles of workers in Caerfilli are. But you are a 'national' socialist which is no kind of socialist at all."

Which is why the Wrexham Socialist Forum has organised a meeting on the Venezuelan revolution with the Hands off Venezuela campaign group on Tuesday, November 29 in the Miners' Institute, Wxm (are we allowed to advertise here?)
 Now what has RR been doing to promote understanding of the Venezuelan revolution among the workers of Cardiff and, check that spelling, Caerffili?

 An apology to lewislewis for the national socialist slur is in order.


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## Udo Erasmus (Oct 19, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> Point still remains that I don´t think the SWP are credible in a discussion on the Welsh Question. Because of their historical lack of concern with Welsh issues and because they really don´t see it as an important issue (as elucidated above by several posters) which is fine, but puts the prospect of a united Welsh left into the realms of impossibilty.



Surely, most of the Welsh electorate show little interest in the "Welsh question". And what exactly are "Welsh issues"? Other than the language, I don't see any fundamentally different issues for Welsh workers than English workers. 

If independence was high on the list of priorities for Welsh voters, then Plaid Cymru would have been the main political party in Wales for the last 100 years instead of Wales being solidly Labour. (This compares with places where there are genuine national liberation struggles - Iraq, Palestine, Tibet, Kashmir, the North of Ireland - where nationalism is central to the political discourse and any party which had independence low on their list of priorities would get nowhere)

It could be argued that the places where Plaid has won elections was more on the basis of taking up socialist issues and posing as a "left alternative" to New Labour rather than pushing the issue of independence.

Indeed where Labour's vote is collapsing, the electorate seems to be switching to the LibDems (wrongly perceived by many as to the left of New Labour) rather than Plaid.

If there was a sudden surge in nationalism in Wales, I doubt whether it would represent a shift to the left in Wales. Probably it would be from disillusionment with Labour and the socialist tradition of collective struggle that people would begin to look for other explanations of their oppression in nationalist arguments.

Finally, 
Living in Cardiff, I am geographically closer to Bristol than Aberystwyth or Ynys Mon - why should I prioritise work with socialists from West or North Wales over socialists from Bristol who it is physically easier for me to work with, what is so bad about English workers that you can't work with them? I personally see no problem in being in a socialist organisation that has members in England and Wales. I don't see that the situation of Welsh workers is so fundamentally different to English workers that it justifies separatism.


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## lewislewis (Oct 19, 2005)

Plaid policies don't support the Welsh boss class...

What Udo says about Plaid gaining support from being a left alternative sits well with me. But the national question is part of the class issue, like Nic says what revolution has not had a national component? And indeed, what succesful left party in the UK at the moment does not have a national component? The SSP advocates the need for an independent, socialist Scotland (and goes further to suggest an anti-capitalist Scotland).

Also, i'm not rushing out to clamour for 'separatism', Welsh people wouldn't support that. A Welsh Parliament is the next thing i'd like, and Plaid Cymru is the only party working to deliver this.

Thanks Nic for asking for an apology...i won't hold my breath though !


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## nwnm (Oct 19, 2005)

lewislewis, our roger isn't a part of any left grouping to my knowledge - certainly not any of the groups discussed on the thread (some of whom have been smeared quite badly/incorrectly so far.......)

niclas, "The problem is that when people in Porthmadog make themselves heard, they're denounced as racists by the British media, British Labour and some of the British left.Similarly with holiday homes, half the second homes in Wales are owned by people from Wales. Some of the homes set on fire by Meibion Glyndwr were owned by Welsh people." God mate. I worry when we start to agree on stuff . But there was some nonsense eminating from Meibion sources about 'white settlers' (and, I don't think torching houses is an answer - squatting 'em or turning them into hostels/community centres maybe.. You don't solve a housing crisis by burning down houses.) 

I think the term 'racism' has been devalued now so much by right wing arseholes that it needs to be restated what it is - discriminating against a RACIAL minority (i.e. people of different colour/culture/perceived physical differences, although definitions of culture are some what tenuous). Somebody moving to Wales who speaks English is not part of any minority - even if they happen to have been born in England (refusing to speak English to people in Wales who don't speak Welsh isn't racist - but it can be construed as pretty fucking ignorant; depending on context). Racism as an ideology means identifying with the state and feeling superior to those you perceive not to belong(i.e. an extreme form of nationalism). Most of the countries of the world are now thankfully mongrel nations. Notions of racial purity suck big time.

lewislewis, "'Nationalism' or whatever you want to call it, has been part of the Welsh left since before Plaid Cymru was ever around." Yes there has been an element, it hasn't always been as evident as you suggest, but 'national sentiment' (a crap term I know - but I can't think of a better one at the moment) does have a tendancy to decline when there are large scale class struggles in the air; particularly ones that cut across continents. (It would be worth reading Tariq Ali's "1968 Marching in the Streets", the new edition pf his "Street Fighting Years" or Chris Harman's "1968 - the Fire Last Time and after" to get a picture of what I'm talking about. When you get mass demonstrations of people shouting "We will fight! We will win ! London, Paris Prague, Berlin!" Then suddenly you get the impression that we can remake the world in a different form. (And no, that doesn't mean letting languages and cultures wither away with the state - but preserving them for all to enjoy)


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## chilango (Oct 19, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Surely, most of the Welsh electorate show little interest in the "Welsh question". And what exactly are "Welsh issues"? Other than the language, I don't see any fundamentally different issues for Welsh workers than English workers.
> 
> If independence was high on the list of priorities for Welsh voters, then Plaid Cymru would have been the main political party in Wales for the last 100 years instead of Wales being solidly Labour. (This compares with places where there are genuine national liberation struggles - Iraq, Palestine, Tibet, Kashmir, the North of Ireland - where nationalism is central to the political discourse and any party which had independence low on their list of priorities would get nowhere)
> 
> ...



As I´ve said before, I´m not a nationalist, however the existance of Plaid as a political force (that is stronger than the any of the "left" parties) surely shows that a siginficant number of the electorate do consider the "welsh question" to some degree. You can´t simply wish this out of existance.

Secondly, the habit of the left to pick and choose which "liberation struggles" it considers worthy of their support is dubious to say the least.

Finally, who has said anything about not weorking with English workers? Noone afaik. A bit of a red herring yr last paragraph I think?


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## lewislewis (Oct 19, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> lewislewis, "'Nationalism' or whatever you want to call it, has been part of the Welsh left since before Plaid Cymru was ever around." Yes there has been an element, it hasn't always been as evident as you suggest, but 'national sentiment' (a crap term I know - but I can't think of a better one at the moment) does have a tendancy to decline when there are large scale class struggles in the air; particularly ones that cut across continents. (It would be worth reading Tariq Ali's "1968 Marching in the Streets", the new edition pf his "Street Fighting Years" or Chris Harman's "1968 - the Fire Last Time and after" to get a picture of what I'm talking about. When you get mass demonstrations of people shouting "We will fight! We will win ! London, Paris Prague, Berlin!" Then suddenly you get the impression that we can remake the world in a different form. (And no, that doesn't mean letting languages and cultures wither away with the state - but preserving them for all to enjoy)



Fair post. I don't think 'national sentiment' does decline during class struggle...it certainly didn't decline during the miners' strike, in fact it increased, along with cross-nation solidarity with the miners in England- they weren't seen by most as a different nationality, but the Welsh miners were certainly seen as a different kind of people by the English miners (and this difference was a positive, respectful one), and they helped each other out because it was the same struggle- nationalism and internationalism arent contradictory because a nation's well-being depends largely on its interaction with other nations.

The 'London, Paris, Prague, Berlin' chant is all very good, but is only adhered to by the most politicised, most militant workers. National sentiment is naturally held by all workers whether politicised or politically apathetic.

On the popularity of the national question, Chilango deals with that very well.


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## nwnm (Oct 19, 2005)

Chilango - "Secondly, the habit of the left to pick and choose which 'liberation struggles' it considers worthy of their support is dubious to say the least." One problem - there isn't one going on in Wales.....

lewislewis - "i'm not rushing out to clamour for 'separatism', Welsh people wouldn't support that. A Welsh Parliament is the next thing i'd like." I'd go along with that also. It might have to be couched in terms of giving the Assembly primary law making powers or whatever, but I reckon we are all singing from the same hymn sheet on that one (or maybe different songs with the same chorus.....). People like Rhodri Morgan couldn't duck out of discussing the war in Iraq so easily then could they? (He'd still probably try though)


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## roger rosewall (Oct 20, 2005)

*Part One*

Allow me to take up a few less important points first of all before coming back to Wales as it were. This is longer than I would wish but I’ve probably still missed stuff out. Sorry about that if you feel I’ve not replied to a point made just remind me OK? A couple of very minor points first. Plaid Cymru is not the only party calling for a Parliament for Wales that dubious slogan is supported by the CPB the leftover party of British Stalinism. Nor is Plaid successful among the Muslim. What happened in Riverside is a handful of ‘community leaders’ switched from Labour to Plaid for purely opportunist reasons. Plaids activists from well to do Pontcanna up the road canvassed for them and in exchange the councillors delivered up a vote based on communal loyalties. Its an old game much played by the Liberal Democrats largely at the expense of Labour who were it’s past masters. What has not occurred is the conversion of even the smallest layer of the Muslim population in Riverside to Welsh nationalism.

Niclas asks what is the difference between a workers republic and a socialist republic. The former is defined by the class which holds state power and the latter by adhesion to an ideology. Usually the two terms are used interchangeably as for example in the early days of the Russian commune state. But this is not a scientifically correct usage as it is perfectly possible for a non-socialist party to lead an a government in a workers state. This should point out is the position of Marx as set out in is writings on the Paris Commune.

On Cuba Niclas writes that “The achievements of the Cuban people are immense” and on that I will not quibble. But this does not make Cuba in any sense socialist. Socialism is the self emancipation of the working class or it’s meaningless. And the fact is that in Cuba the working class does not hold state power which is the monopoly of a small bureaucratic class headed by Castro. Making this point I should add does not mean that I do not favour the defence of Cuba in case of aggression against it by the USA, it should be obvious that I do, but that I oppose the dangers of creating illusions in substitutes for the working class as the revolutionary subject/object of social revolution.

In relation to Venezuela I strongly suspect that similar illusions are being spread and quite possibly by some contributors to this thread. I’m reluctant to comment much on the so called Bolivarian Revolution however as I’ve not as yet studied it in any depth. But I will say that it does appear that it is to a considerable degree sui generis and has benefited greatly due to the advantageous position of Venezuela with respect to its oil reserves. It should also be noted that the USA and their allies have played their hand appallingly badly, which is to be welcomed of course, and have been wrong footed due to the response of the masses. Left to himself Chavez would have been history by now.

It’s certainly true that both Cuba and Venezuela have foreign policies which are opposed to the policies of the USA the current dominant imperialist power. From time to time they even get up in the United Nations and denounce this or that deed of the USA. Then the USA and Britain, go ahead and invade Iraq anyhow. So much for the League of Nations mk 2 which is, as Lenin wrote, a thieves den. Which is why I find myself amused that for one Welsh nationalist contributor to this thread it would be perfectly acceptable to remain within this imperialist cartel. Which doesn’t bring me back to Wales but turn to it I must.

There has been a lot written here about culture and it’s relationship to nationalism, particularly Welsh nationalism. What has not been said is that culture also has a relationship to the means and relations of production. That is to class society and it follows that any given culture is, in the first instance, the culture of the class hegemonic within that society. Which, once upon a time, was a simple thing to illustrate as each and every society was more or less self contained and developed autonomously. That situation is a thing of the past gone forever like the morning dew of a spring morn.

Today, like it or not, we are faced with a situation in which a tiny handful of languages, the medium for cultural development, dominate the world and all other cultures are marginalized. We can outline a scenario in which everyone can speak one or other of this handful of world languages and personally I applaud and look forward to the achievement of such a goal. That said unless the working class holds state power such a goal will be achieved as a result of the further domination of the world by a handful of imperialist powers. That I do not applaud!

The question is where does this leave minority languages and cultures? Specifically where does this leave Welsh and what does it mean for ‘the left’? For a start economic changes do and will continue to threaten the continued use of Welsh as Welsh speakers move away to work and English speakers choose to live in formerly Welsh speaking areas. Perhaps more importantly entry into many areas of life will demand that English, or another world language, be used. It simply cannot be denied that today English, not as was once the case, English is needed by anyone working ion the physical sciences for example. All in all these developments threaten the use of Welsh as the first language of home and workplace. And that threat cannot but loom ever greater in the future.

This threat explains why it is so important for Welsh nationalism to have control or at least influence on the state. Because it is felt that only the conscious intervention of the state, as the defender and promoter of the Welsh language, that can preserve that language. This is in fact almost certainly true. Without the support of the state, primarily in the sphere of education, the number of people able to speak Welsh would have fallen more dramatically than is the case. Again without benefit of state support, through the Welsh Language Act and other legislation, Welsh would not be recognised as an equal language within the state, with the exception of the legal system I should add where there is still a gross inequality practised

At this point I must say that I agree that Welsh should be supported as it is a democratic right that it’s speakers be able to use their language on an everyday level in their own country. Therefore I believe that Welsh language medium education should be supported, where there is a demand for it, and that a new Language Act be passed abolishing out the present iniquities that remain. Moreover I believe that given the imbalance between the two languages that Welsh medium culture should receive a greater proportion of state subsidization than its share of the population would normally merit. But none of this can or will make Welsh equal with English the one is a world language and the other is not. And like it or lump it most Welsh people in Anglophone areas do not wish to speak the language and nothing is going to change that fact of life. In short Welsh, in the final analysis, must live or die on its own merits.

[ As an aside I suspect that some reading this post might be of the mind that I would not be so sanguine were it my culture and my language that were threatened. That would be a fair criticism to raise and I have no doubt that if my language was becoming increasingly marginalized I would be concerned. But I would hope that my personal feelings would not be the basis on which I formed my political opinions. Naturally as a youth - oh so long ago that few now living can remember such distant days - my initial attraction to the cause of labour was not a result of scientific study and reflection. It was gut reaction and hatred of the boss class and that remains with me to this day. But gut feeling is a very inadequate basis on which to develop a coherent political viewpoint. Which is why I became an adherent of scientific socialism as it offers a developed understanding of class society and the means to destroy it. I would hope that if I were a member of a threatened cultural group that I would still have that understanding and would not fall into the trap of succumbing to atavistic ideas such as blood and soil or tribal instinct.]


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## roger rosewall (Oct 20, 2005)

*Part Two*

Politically speaking Welsh nationalism originated and retains its principal base in those areas in which Welsh is important. In terms of social class this meant that from the outset Plaid was dominated by the rural petty bourgeoisie. As others have pointed out it’s on/off electoral support in parts of the South Wales Valleys is very much down to it’s playing a left social democratic card when Labour are in office. Which has led in turn to Labour playing its left card when Plaid in office are every bit as useless as Labour. But even in these areas the hardcore Plaid activists have a commitment to Welsh culture and promote Welsh medium education. Arguments in council chambers become pointless debates over which schools to close or fund, Welsh or English medium. So much for the commitment of either party to the needs of the people of Wales which demand that they fight for no cuts and education for all in the language of choice.

That Welsh speaking people wish to protect and preserve their culture is their choice and it cannot be plausibly denied that Welsh national consciousness has a relationship to that historic culture. This is true even for those of us who vehemently oppose Welsh nationalism and happen to be monoglot English speakers (this is of course exactly my own situation). Were it not for the existence of a current Welsh speaking community the existence of a Welsh national identity would be of no more significance than regional identities in say Yorkshire. The Welsh history of the Princes as unimportant as that of the Kings of Mercia. Whether this is a good thing or not is dependent on the political value one sets on national identity. For my part as a communist it is something I’m indifferent towards as for my personal feelings on the topic they are of no importance whatsoever. By the same token I’m unconcerned by the personal feelings of others except, as is always the case with nationalists of all stripes, when they masquerade as politics.

It seems to me that a Wales in which the Welsh language is anything other than second language is a fantasy that stands in contradiction to the development of the economic base of society and therefore of the cultural superstructures which rest on that economic base. Attempts to prevent the development of a single world culture are therefore, in the strict sense, utopian and reactionary especially when they become part of a nationalist program. That said while the level of economic development must in the final analysis determine politics - that the relations of production have outgrown the development of the means of production is as is commonly known the basis of the Marxian case for communism being the sole practical solution to the impending crisis humanity faces - it would be the crudest economic determinism, or what Lenin called imperialist economism on the basis that the economies of different nations are effectively integrated as a single unit.

Politically the Classical Marxist tradition, the current of thought that bases itself on the positions and methods of the Comintern and the Fourth International, places an emphasis on the relative autonomy of political actors from the economic base. It follows that the national question is viewed from the perspective of the revolutionary class and whether or not revolutionary socialists advocate national independence of a given nation is decided by the political conjuncture and not by adhesion to the concept of the national idea. Marxism argues that nations, in the modern sense, are the creation of the bourgeois mode of production and will disappear along with class society.

A Marxist criteria for support or otherwise of any given movement for a national state is not recognition of some spurious right of any nation to form a state. Thus Marxism rejects the right of the Israeli nation to form a state as that right must negate the right of the Palestinian people to self determination and the Zionist entity cannot but be a cats paw for imperialism in the Near East. The criteria for Marxists is not even to ask whether or not a nation is oppressed by another nation or by a multi-national state. The sole criteria for Marxists is to ask whether or not the bourgeois right of national self determination can be supported to the benefit and furtherance of the social revolutionary cause.

In the general run of things this will mean that the national liberation of oppressed nations and peoples will be to the advantage of the working class and will therefore be advocated by the revolutionists. In fact I find it hard to imagine a case in whereby revolutionists would not advocate such a solution but such a scenario is imaginable and could theoretically arise. A caveat to this general rule is that not all minority nations and peoples are oppressed despite the claims of various nationalist forces and in these cases revolutionary socialists need not advocate the formation of a national state as by raising this demand the social revolutionary goal is in no sense progressed.

The above paragraph obviously applies to Wales which while recognisably a nation is not oppressed as such by the British state. This does not mean that revolutionists must therefore oppose a National Assembly - call it a Parliament or Senate if you will the label is of no consequence - which has powers equal to those of the Edinburgh Parliament and as a NATIONAL Assembly is the sovereign government in Wales. If such a body declared itself to be a Constituent Assembly and declared Wales independent revolutionary socialists would as a matter of course support such a declaration and fight within for workers power as the only way to guarantee independence. But I find this scenario extremely unlikely and under current conditions there is no socialist purpose in advocating an independent Welsh state. While recognising the right of Wales to self determination Leninists do not advocate when it is against the interests of the working class.

Hopefully this makes clear that my objection to an independent Welsh state arises from a vision of the working class as international in its nature and therefore anti-national. But as Niclas has pointed out the socialist revolution must begin on the ‘national’ plane. It is also true that such an awesome event must cause immense social and economic dislocation. These do not constitute arguments for an independent Welsh state however but are good arguments as to the need for the social revolution to be internationalised as soon as is possible regardless of wherever it is initially successful. It is in the interests of society as a whole and the proletariat to minimise economic and social dislocation by making the revolution permanent and passing beyond the purely national stage. It is a secondary matter whether the social revolution in these isles scores its first successes in Wales or Britain as a whole. In any case neither Britain or Wales currently do not constitute a weak link in the chain of imperialism, quite the contrary, I regret to say.

To begin to draw these remarks to a conclusion it is my argument that International Socialism and left nationalism are politically counter-posed programs which cannot be united in a single organisation. It is this and not the sectarianism of the groups involved that explains why the Welsh Socialist Alliance was doomed to complete and utter failure from the day it was misconceived. However politically confused the groups concerned were it was very clear from the outset that without some rough agreement on the national question that at some point in the future their common propaganda bloc would come unstuck. On top of which the WSA had all the problems with petty sectarianism that the Socialist Alliance in England had a more pointless endeavour is hard to imagine.

As for Forward Wales who can truthfully give a damn? Not only did it fail to develop a coherent policy on the national question but it failed to develop a coherency on anything very much. Given that it was little more than a flag of convenience for the good doctor as he drifts towards a well funded retirement and for the Cymru Goch sect a hoped for opportunity to crash the big time of electoral politics it was never going anywhere. And how could a tiny party, lacking a coherent program, and distant from both the nationalist heartlands and the greater part of the Welsh working class expect to gain support from either? It was never going to happen except in fantasy as the social and political base for such a project does not exist.

Indeed I would argue that given the opposed programs of the small internationalist socialist groups and the left nationalists, whether in Plaid Cymru or not, that the unification of the Welsh left so conceived of is a very bad idea. In fact any conception of a Welsh left should be rejected as an entirely as yet another trap set to divide the working classes. Not only does such an idea define the international working class by reference to the essentially bourgeois idea of nation but t makes no reference to the program of such a left. For it remains a truism within the revolutionary movement that the only left that can liberate humanity from wage slavery and end the despotism of class society is a proletarian left that owes no loyalty to any nation. The choice as ever is Nation or Class and there can be no mixing of these antagonistic programs.


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## lewislewis (Oct 20, 2005)

Well I chugged my way through that essay...the point you dodged with me was; How is the nation-state dying, when dozens of them are appearing/have appeared in the past say twenty years, and the world now has more nation-states than ever?

I disagree with everything you have written about Plaid Cymru and Wales, and I might argue them tonight if i can be bothered. I like the way you haven't followed up some of the more ludicrous claims you've made. And a scientific understanding of socialism means nothing if the masses don't understand what you're talking about. Thankfully, everybody knows what a Welsh flag means.


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## chilango (Oct 20, 2005)

So, essentially Roger argues that his priority is build up the organisation of the international socialist movement and that this movement should be, indeed is intrinsically opposed to groups such as Plaid, FW etc.

Is that right?

...and how should this project be developed within workers holding "nationalist illusions"? or shouldn´t it?

...and Roger, maybe I missed it, but can you tell me your position on other national liberation movements? (regardless of whter you consider that this exists in Wales or not?


I agree with him on Cuba and Venezuela though.


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## chilango (Oct 20, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Chilango - "Secondly, the habit of the left to pick and choose which 'liberation struggles' it considers worthy of their support is dubious to say the least." One problem - there isn't one going on in Wales.....



 



> (This compares with places where there are genuine national liberation struggles - Iraq, Palestine, Tibet, Kashmir, the North of Ireland - where nationalism is central to the political discourse and any party which had independence low on their list of priorities would get nowhere)



Iraq? national liberation? support the insurgents? Kashmir? you´ll support Islamists but not Welsh left nationalists? Why? Seems to me to be armchair politics (no disrespect intended) with the comfort of distance.


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## nwnm (Oct 20, 2005)

" Iraq? national liberation? support the insurgents? Kashmir? you´ll support Islamists but not Welsh left nationalists? Why? Seems to me to be armchair politics (no disrespect intended) with the comfort of distance." Because I see no sign of a popular national uprising - do you? In fact Welsh troops are in Iraq helping to subdue Iraqis.... You know those are the (not exclusively by the  way) muslim types fighting to rid the Iraq of imperialist troops (Welsh included). The comfort of distance? what bullshit as you are more distant from these shores than me, you may not have noticed how the 'war against terror' is impinging on civil liberties across the UK. With the possibility of ID cards what next? When was the last time anyone asked to see your passport, when you were on a demo? (I don't have one - I was born here and never needed one...)


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## chilango (Oct 20, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "  Because I see no sign of a popular national uprising - do you? In fact Welsh troops are in Iraq helping to subdue Iraqis.... You know those are the (not exclusively by the  way) muslim types fighting to rid the Iraq of imperialist troops (Welsh included). The comfort of distance? what bullshit as you are more distant from these shores than me, you may not have noticed how the 'war against terror' is impinging on civil liberties across the UK. With the possibility of ID cards what next? When was the last time anyone asked to see your passport, when you were on a demo? (I don't have one - I was born here and never needed one...)



So you wait till it gets violent and then support it? Is that your point? 

I don´t see a "popular national uprising" in Iraq either by the way. There is certainly armed resistance to the Coalition forces there, there is also armed resistance to the Iraqi authorities...and I would question whether you could call this "popular" and it certainly isn´t "national" in character - is a Iraq a unified national entity? Hell no. Thats a major issue there, no?

...of course not every insurgent is an islamist, but that is the dominant current within this movement that you support. A current that is far more antiproletarian than Plaid Cymru.

...and yes Welsh troops are involved. So what? Iraqis are involved too - again, so what?

As for "distance", yeah I live a long way from Wales at the moment...but not only did I grow up there but was a member of both Plaid Cymru and the SWP in Wales and was active in Wales after leaving both (its not that long since I drove past the Forward Wales office everyday after either if that helps). I doubt you have that kind of experience in Kashmir or Iraq? 

You can be involved and influence struggles in Wales, but I doubt you have that kind of engagement in Kashmir, Tibet, Iraq etc.

I´m not quite sure what mean with your point about passports and ID cards...explain?


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## Karac (Oct 20, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Surely, most of the Welsh electorate show little interest in the "Welsh question". And what exactly are "Welsh issues"? Other than the language, I don't see any fundamentally different issues for Welsh workers than English workers.


If you were an Internationalist rather than a middle-class Englishman you should say that their arent fundamentally any differences between a Welsh worker,a Chinese worker or an Argentinian worker. 



			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> If independence was high on the list of priorities for Welsh voters, then Plaid Cymru would have been the main political party in Wales for the last 100 years instead of Wales being solidly Labour. (This compares with places where there are genuine national liberation struggles - Iraq, Palestine, Tibet, Kashmir, the North of Ireland - where nationalism is central to the political discourse and any party which had independence low on their list of priorities would get nowhere)


Firstly Plaid Cymru hasnt existed for 100 years.
To a certain extent the National struggle was carried out through the Labour and Trade Union Movement-the valleys and towns of South Wales were largely the birth-place of militant Unions,the Red Flag and and an initially radical Labour Party.



			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> It could be argued that the places where Plaid has won elections was more on the basis of taking up socialist issues and posing as a "left alternative" to New Labour rather than pushing the issue of independence.


Nope-the areas where Plaids is rocksolid are places that would take independence tomorrow.
Plaids encroached into traditional Labour territory recently and will continue too-Labours fucked now-the old links are gone or fast disappearing.





			
				Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Finally,
> Living in Cardiff, I am geographically closer to Bristol than Aberystwyth or Ynys Mon - why should I prioritise work with socialists from West or North Wales over socialists from Bristol who it is physically easier for me to work with, what is so bad about English workers that you can't work with them? I personally see no problem in being in a socialist organisation that has members in England and Wales. I don't see that the situation of Welsh workers is so fundamentally different to English workers that it justifies separatism.


Things have changed-Cardiff no longer looks to Bristol for a lead-Cardiff is far better off as a Capital of Wales than a.n.other UK city.
Again i struggle to see your "Internationalism" -your Internationalism as has been so aptly put by another poster ends in the suburbs of London.


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## lewislewis (Oct 20, 2005)

Its currently looking good for another Plaid takeover in the Valleys in 2008/09.


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## nwnm (Oct 21, 2005)

chilango -
“So you wait till it gets violent and then support it? Is that your point?” Nope, I wait till it gets beyond the realms of your fevered little imagination.

“I don´t see a "popular national uprising" in Iraq either by the way. There is certainly armed resistance to the Coalition forces there, there is also armed resistance to the Iraqi authorities...and I would question whether you could call this ‘popular‘“ Lets see the majority of the population want the ‘coalition’ forces out of Iraq. Sounds erm popular to me

“You can be involved and influence struggles in Wales, but I doubt you have that kind of engagement in Kashmir, Tibet, Iraq etc.” Actually we have a lot more contact with resistance movements than you give us credit for. Times have changed in the SWP since the days when you weren’t an organiser. (If you browse through some of our publications you will actually find interviews with some of the resistance) Glad that you finally accept that we are a part of the left in Wales then

“I´m not quite sure what mean with your point about passports and ID cards...explain?” Suggests you are a little more out of touch than you think. You look at Iraq and, like Blair, play spot the Jihadi rather than recognising a movement which despite its weaknesses has the potential to drive a coach and horses through Bush and Blair’s imperial adventures


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

Karac said:
			
		

> If you were an Internationalist rather than a middle-class Englishman you should say that their arent fundamentally any differences between a Welsh worker,a Chinese worker or an Argentinian worker.
> 
> Firstly Plaid Cymru hasnt existed for 100 years.
> To a certain extent the National struggle was carried out through the Labour and Trade Union Movement-the valleys and towns of South Wales were largely the birth-place of militant Unions,the Red Flag and and an initially radical Labour Party.
> ...



As a working class internationalist who happens to be of Welsh nationality I think it important to note that circumstances for Welsh, Chinese and Argentinian workers are very different. despite belonging to the same social class it is silly to say things are fundamentaly alike for workers in such different countries.

The Labour Party and unions were as you say tinged with Welsh nationalism. But they were absolutely fucking suffused with British nationalism. Which is why they supported the World War and betrayed the socialist cause. And for what its worth they found no contradiction between their British and Welsh identities.

Yup the old links on which Labour was built are rotten and falling away. What a shame nothing positive is replacing them.

Cardiff never looked to Bristol for a lead. Cardiff may well have a higher standard of living than elsewhere in Wales but that does not benefit working class Cardiffians. Many of whom, young couples I know for example, who have been forced to move to foreign areas, Caerphilly for example, in order to obtain affordable housing. The better paid jobs in the Bay and those associated with the Assembly aren't for us like.


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## lewislewis (Oct 21, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> As a working class internationalist who happens to be of Welsh nationality I think it important to note that circumstances for Welsh, Chinese and Argentinian workers are very different. despite belonging to the same social class it is silly to say things are fundamentaly alike for workers in such different countries.



Finally : )


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Finally : )



Lo Lew there is a letter on the unequal status of Welsh and English in the Weakly Wanker should you be interested.

Btw recognition that workers in different countries face different circumstances only means that different tactics must prevail. The goal remains identical in each country. Whether in Wales, China or Argentina workers have no country but the International.


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## niclas (Oct 21, 2005)

The original WW article by Bob Davies was far better than Roger's response.

There is an assumption on the "internationalist" left that the Welsh language is only kept alive by grants and cosy quango deals with the Welsh middle-class. While not denying these people have benefitted from their language skills (something anyone can acquire of course), the truth is that the backbone of the Welsh language has always been "y werin", the working class of rural and industrial Wales. Virtually the only naturally Welsh-speaking communities today are on the council estates of Llangefni, Caernarfon, Pwllheli and Porthmadog.

The language has been - and remains to many - a symbol of resistance. No language dies a natural death but equally no language can withstand global capitalist forces without support.

 Language wise, Welsh is the corner shop to the English Wall-mart - and the orthodox marxists will argue that Wall-mart's dominance and onward march is inevitable and to be welcomed as monopoly capitalism develops.

 The Welsh language today is at something of a crossroads. It can survive indefinitely as an official second language in Wales spoken by fewer and fewer people in naturally Welsh-speaking communities and by more and more of those bought off with grants and cushy jobs in officialdom. That's a slow but painless death... a whimper not a bang.

Or it can take the Basque or Catalan route (dangerously internationalist though it is) and revive in the communities through a network of voluntary and publicly funded roads that give everybody - young and old - the opportunity to learn Welsh and live their lives through the medium of Welsh. 

 The language struggle is a part of the anti-capitalist, anti-globalisation struggle but I fear many of the contributors on this list would prefer to learn about the abstract delights of some national liberation struggle thousands of miles away.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> The original WW article by Bob Davies was far better than Roger's response.
> 
> There is an assumption on the "internationalist" left that the Welsh language is only kept alive by grants and cosy quango deals with the Welsh middle-class. While not denying these people have benefitted from their language skills (something anyone can acquire of course), the truth is that the backbone of the Welsh language has always been "y werin", the working class of rural and industrial Wales. Virtually the only naturally Welsh-speaking communities today are on the council estates of Llangefni, Caernarfon, Pwllheli and Porthmadog.
> 
> ...



Niclas that the backbone of the Welsh language is to be found among the rural and urban communities is a given. But those communities are being reduced in number as you agree.

In fact you seem to agree that Welsh cannot be sustaind without the support of the state when you write that Welsh must "revive in the communities through a network of voluntary and publicly funded roads". Publically funded please note.

Niclas it is a fact that Welsh today is understood, to some extent, by more peolpe than ever before as a result of state education and state sponsored and financed schemes. But fewer and fewer people use it as their language of choice in their home life and at work. These are facts which you agree with.

Hell I even agree that IF Welsh is to be preserved as a living language then you must encourage English speaking Welsh people to learn the language and to use it as our primary language. Which is entriely possible IF you can convince enough people to do so. That IF is however absolutely stupendously fucking huge. And it ain't gonna happen. You see Niclas we already have a language of our own and don't need or want yours. You have to convince us we do and you can't. I respect your right to use your language and I demand you respect my right to use mine. End of story.

It is your opinion and only an opinion that preservation of a language, any language, is an anti-capitalist struggle. That is if we accept, which I do not, that anti-capitalism is always pogressive in content. many so called anti-capitalists actualy wish to return to pre-capitalist ways of life. Marx dealt with similar reactionaries in the section on feudal socialism a well known text of his.

Finally you are absolutely wrong when you write that orthodox Marxists consider the development of monopoly capitalism, better imperialism, as inevitable and welcome it. Marxism posits a number of laws in the sphere of political economy but none of those laws are considered to be inevitable. They are tendential in their nature and subject to counterveiling tendencies.

In any case we do not draw the conclusion that the choice is between Walmart and the corner shop. Between imperialism and the nation state as it were. For orthdox Marxists the only real choice for humanity is Workers Power. Which would mean workers control of production and distribution, for which aim the networks developed by Walmart will do very nicely. In any case the corner shop has long gone bust and shut for good.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> The original WW article by Bob Davies was far better than Roger's response.



The letter is not signed with the name Roger Rosewell. Assumption that I, Roger Rosewell, am the author of the letter is unwarranted. You may however assume that I, Roger Rosewell, am in general agreement with the line of the letter.


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## chilango (Oct 21, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> chilango -
> “So you wait till it gets violent and then support it? Is that your point?” Nope, I wait till it gets beyond the realms of your fevered little imagination.
> 
> Lets see the majority of the population want the ‘coalition’ forces out of Iraq. Sounds erm popular to me



At the height of the Meibion Glyndwr campaign in the late 1980s a HTV poll found that a majority of the Welsh population supported the aims of the campaign (rising to 87% in parts of the north). Does this make it a popular rising?

Of course not.




> “ Actually we have a lot more contact with resistance movements than you give us credit for. Times have changed in the SWP since the days when you weren’t an organiser. (If you browse through some of our publications you will actually find interviews with some of the resistance)



Contact and interviews, fine. But you cannot have the influence on this movement that you can on movements in Wales. Yet you appear to give this a higher priority.

...and ally youselves with openly reactionary and anti-WC Islamist currents.



> Glad that you finally accept that we are a part of the left in Wales then



Course you are. Thats why the SWP is being criticised in the context of this discussion.



> “I´m not quite sure what mean with your point about passports and ID cards...explain?” Suggests you are a little more out of touch than you think. You look at Iraq and, like Blair, play spot the Jihadi rather than recognising a movement which despite its weaknesses has the potential to drive a coach and horses through Bush and Blair’s imperial adventures



I still don´t really get your point  

Apart from the SWPs new found tenedency to smaer everyone who disagrees wiuth them as Blairites. Juvenile and patently untrue (like the old days when you called everyone "Tories"  )


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## chilango (Oct 21, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> For orthdox Marxists the only real choice for humanity is Workers Power.


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## niclas (Oct 21, 2005)

RR: "The letter is not signed with the name Roger Rosewell. Assumption that I, Roger Rosewell, am the author of the letter is unwarranted. You may however assume that I, Roger Rosewell, am in general agreement with the line of the letter."

You mean there's more than one of you with these ideas? Scary


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## niclas (Oct 21, 2005)

RR: "Niclas that the backbone of the Welsh language is to be found among the rural and urban communities is a given. But those communities are being reduced in number as you agree."

No, I mentioned class - the backbone of the Welsh language are working class communities. Jeez, the internationalists keep forgetting about class...  

RR: "In fact you seem to agree that Welsh cannot be sustaind without the support of the state when you write that Welsh must "revive in the communities through a network of voluntary and publicly funded roads". Publically funded please note."

Please note the voluntary - the Welsh rock scene has been voluntary for the past 30 years - that turned me on to the Welsh language more than school or anything else.

RR: "Niclas it is a fact that Welsh today is understood, to some extent, by more peolpe than ever before as a result of state education and state sponsored and financed schemes. But fewer and fewer people use it as their language of choice in their home life and at work. These are facts which you agree with."

In fact 1m spoke Welsh in the 1901 survey - today it's 600,000 tops. And it's likely that more people use it at work because it has some official status today whereas prior to the Welsh Language Act it wasn't necessary to have bilingual telephonists etc. Fewer people use it at home... mmm, you know this, do you? 

RR: "Hell I even agree that IF Welsh is to be preserved as a living language then you must encourage English speaking Welsh people to learn the language and to use it as our primary language. Which is entriely possible IF you can convince enough people to do so. That IF is however absolutely stupendously fucking huge. And it ain't gonna happen. You see Niclas we already have a language of our own and don't need or want yours. You have to convince us we do and you can't. I respect your right to use your language and I demand you respect my right to use mine. End of story."

Interesting how defensive you've become. My experience is that many non-Welsh speaking people regard the language as "theirs" as well - all stats bear this out too. It may explain why 80% of the parents at my kids' school don't speak Welsh themselves (although a lot are learning). It may explain why the first Welsh-medium schools were in largely Anglicised areas. What's disturbing is that you see two blocks of people - the Welsh speakers and the English speakers - and never the twain shall meet. It's more of a continuum - there are loads of people in the middle who understand a bit of Welsh or would like to learn more. And all Welsh speakers speak "your" language.
 I think I'm giving you enough respect by using "your" language for this debate.

RR: "Finally you are absolutely wrong when you write that orthodox Marxists consider the development of monopoly capitalism, better imperialism, as inevitable and welcome it. Marxism posits a number of laws in the sphere of political economy but none of those laws are considered to be inevitable. They are tendential in their nature and subject to counterveiling tendencies.

RR: "In any case we do not draw the conclusion that the choice is between Walmart and the corner shop. Between imperialism and the nation state as it were. For orthdox Marxists the only real choice for humanity is Workers Power. Which would mean workers control of production and distribution, for which aim the networks developed by Walmart will do very nicely. In any case the corner shop has long gone bust and shut for good."

The cornershop analogy was re the Welsh language not nation state - it may not have any scientific law to back it up but it'll do for me because I'm not an orthodox marxist. I suspect Marx would run a mile from this idea of Wallmart socialism too!


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## cogg (Oct 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> RR: "The letter is not signed with the name Roger Rosewell. Assumption that I, Roger Rosewell, am the author of the letter is unwarranted. You may however assume that I, Roger Rosewell, am in general agreement with the line of the letter."
> 
> You mean there's more than one of you with these ideas? Scary


Even worse, he can't spell his own name.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> No, I mentioned class - the backbone of the Welsh language are working class communities. Jeez, the internationalists keep forgetting about class...
> 
> Please note the voluntary - the Welsh rock scene has been voluntary for the past 30 years - that turned me on to the Welsh language more than school or anything else.
> 
> ...



Dear Lewis you are now selectively misquoting yourself. You wrote that the backbone of the Welsh language is to be found in both rural and urban communities. I assure you there is no ned to invent differences between us.

In fact the Welsh language rock scene is supported by the media particularly the TV which is in turn state financed. To be frank my problem with Welsh rock bands is that they suck regardless of language. I suggest that if you want to listen to good rock music you check out The Corrupted their from Japan and sing in Spainish. But best of all they don't suck.

I appreciate your playing games with stats but it really will not wash. Look it's not me that says Welsh as the language of the home is in decline it's pretty much every official body and survey. And if Welsh were resurgent as the language of the home and social life we would expect the circulation of Welsh language books (exclding learners) and papers to be rising. Which they ain't.

My experience is different to yours. It is that most non-speakers will say they regard Welsh as theirs and will then ignore it. I'm Welsh and Welsh is a language of Wales so Welsh is my language? Yeah right but we still speak English. As for Welsh medium schools my experience is that they are perceived as being better academically than the average state school - I have not a clue as to the truth of this btw - and are therefore more sought after. Other advantages, job opportunities for example, are also thought to acrue from attendance at Welsh medium schools. I agree that there is a continuum between Welsh and English speakers. This does not mean that people are champing at the bit to learn Welsh simply that state sponsored schemes have been moderately successful. Btw if you wish to conduct this debate in Welsh go ahead but a debate with only one view represented is a very sad affair indeed and I suspect that neither Udo or Nwyn can speak anymore Welsh than I can.

At least we can agree that you are no Marxist.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 21, 2005)

cogg said:
			
		

> Even worse, he can't spell his own name.





Roger Rosewall is a fictional name. It began as an in-joke. Nywn may understand.


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## niclas (Oct 21, 2005)

RR: "Dear Lewis you are now selectively misquoting yourself. You wrote that the backbone of the Welsh language is to be found in both rural and urban communities. I assure you there is no ned to invent differences between us."

My post 305 said: "the backbone of the Welsh language has always been "y werin", the working class of rural and industrial Wales."

C'mon, get a grip.

RR: "In fact the Welsh language rock scene is supported by the media particularly the TV which is in turn state financed."

The entire rock scene is financed by one TV programme on S4C? Dream on. Fideo 9 and other programmes did a lot to enable bands to produce professional videos, etc, but this is nonsense.

RR: "I appreciate your playing games with stats but it really will not wash." 

You said more people are speaking Welsh now than ever. I quoted you a stat. Do you dispute it?

RR: "At least we can agree that you are no Marxist. "

Wasn't it Marx who said "I'm no marxist" when he heard some of the drivel being spouted by some of his followers


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## lewislewis (Oct 21, 2005)

I've never seen such a load of crap in my life.

Any independent music scene, Welsh language or otherwise, has nothing to do with the state- the state doesn't put on gigs ! What a pathetic argument.

Roger, Niclas blatantly proved you wrong, don't try and dodge it by saying 'don't play games with statistics', the claim you made that Welsh is now bigger than ever is untrue, and shows you actually have no idea what you're talking about !

Fun times.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 22, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> RR: "Dear Lewis you are now selectively misquoting yourself. You wrote that the backbone of the Welsh language is to be found in both rural and urban communities. I assure you there is no need to invent differences between us."
> 
> My post 305 said: "the backbone of the Welsh language has always been "y werin", the working class of rural and industrial Wales."
> 
> ...



In your post 311 you stated "the backbone of the Welsh language are working class communities" which is a very different proposition to the conception of y werin, meaning I'm told the people, which concept does not mean "working class". Out of curiousity I asked a family member this evening what y werin means and without pause she replied the people. Asked if the term could refer to the working class as such her reply was a very firm no.

Now as for how many people speak Welsh I stand by my claim that more people speak it today than did in times past. We are told that 610,000 speak Welsh fluently in Wales at the present moment. You would appear to be reading this as the absolute figure for Welsh speakers. We also know that some 25% of the population in wales were born outside the country. It follows, given similar birthrates with England and Scotland that a similar percentage of people born here have moved away. It can be safely presumed that a similar percentage of these people will be Welsh speakers as in the current population of Wales. Indeed the proportion of Welsh speakers may be higher in this group given that migratory rates arehigher from rural areas such as those in which the Welsh language is most prevalent. Of course we cannot arrive at any reliable figure for such people but I suspect that the number of Welsh speakers would be increased substantially were they to be added to our total. Of course we may then add the Patagonians.

I'll concede the point about the Welsh language rock scene.   

Marx was objecting to H M Hyndman in large part because Hyndman was a nationalist.


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## lewislewis (Oct 22, 2005)

Roger, didn't 50% of the population speak Welsh in 1900? And 80% of the population spoke it in 1800. Considering the massive population growth during the 1800's and the industrial revolution, these percentages would constitute a higher number of speakers than 610,000.

Those percentages are from the Welsh Language Board. Google their website if you want to read about the history of the language in English.


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## niclas (Oct 22, 2005)

There's a clear dichotomy between "y werin" (common people) and "y crach" (boss class) - not marxist terms I'll grant you. To make clear that I was referring to the working class by the term, I put "working class" after it.

RR: "As for how many people speak Welsh, I stand by my claim that more people speak it today than did in times past."

You're talking absolute hogwash... firstly by guesstimating about emigrants to England (which hasn't been in the equation until now) and then by including the Patagonians. FFS. How could I forget the Patagonians??  
 Do you still claim that there are more Welsh speakers in Wales than there were in the past? If we were to go for percentages, your argument would be even more hollow.

RR: "Marx was objecting to H M Hyndman in large part because Hyndman was a nationalist."  

Yep, a British nationalist - there's a lot of it about on the left


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## roger rosewall (Oct 22, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> There's a clear dichotomy between "y werin" (common people) and "y crach" (boss class) - not marxist terms I'll grant you. To make clear that I was referring to the working class by the term, I put "working class" after it.
> 
> You're talking absolute hogwash... firstly by guesstimating about emigrants to England (which hasn't been in the equation until now) and then by including the Patagonians. FFS. How could I forget the Patagonians??
> Do you still claim that there are more Welsh speakers in Wales than there were in the past? If we were to go for percentages, your argument would be even more hollow.
> ...



Niclas I believe you, Marc and my Aunt that y werin means the common people. The trouble is that once you conflate that term with the term working class you introduce a massive degree of confusion. Thus the term the people is commonly held to include social strata such as small shop keepers and similar petty bourgeois. Given which the people - y werin - taken as a social construct includes social strata who stand in a parasitic and oft antagonistic relationship to the working class. That you habitually conflate these two terms is evidence of your distance from revolutionary socialism.

On the contrary this debate has included Welsh speakers in England before this last exchange of opinion. It was implicit in my argument that Welsh speakers tend to become assimilated into the majority English speaking population when they migrate from Welsh majority areas. For example I present my Aunt who having reached maturity as a Welsh speaker moved away to pursue her career. In any case if we are to look at speakers of Welsh we cannot possibly ignore those who do not live in Wales given the historic importance of Welsh speaking communities in Liverpool and London for example. Though we can ignore the Patagonians I suspect.

Should we inlcude Welsh speakers outside of Wales, and there is no good reason not to do so, then the decline in the number of Welsh speakers is far less dramatic than is often claimed. Certainly there is no way of arriving at nore than a guesstimate of such people but this is a failure of the Welsh Language Board and is a result of its nationalist agenda. Surely a WLB that ignores the tens of thousands of Welsh speakers not living in wales is not doing its job?

I agree that were we to look at the percentage of the population of Wales speaking Welsh then the decline is shown at its most dramatic. But a declining percentage of a growing population need not indicate a decline in the absolute number of Welsh speakers. In fact there is considerable evidence that in the past the number of Welsh speakers was underdeclared. But none of this is of any interest to those here with a nationalist agenda whose political goal is a Welsh speaking national state. in a country in which the majority is English speaking and has no desire for such an outlandish and reactionary tribal atavism.

Yes Hyndman was a British nationalist and Marx despised him for that. But you will not find positive mentions of any form of nationalism in the writings of Marx and Engels, the latter of whom was particularly well traveled in these isles. You will however find that both men made use of that good Hegelian category the non-historic nation which they most certainly saw Scotland as an example of. This conception is comlimentary to their support for the national liberation struggles of the day in Ireland and Poland.

PS I have glanced at the WLB site. It would appear to lack historical data on the language however. if you are aware of any site that contains such data it might be of use to post a link here.


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## lewislewis (Oct 22, 2005)

Hmm Roger what language people speak is up to them, i don't mind which language Wales conducts itself in.


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## nwnm (Oct 22, 2005)

Chilango -
“At the height of the Meibion Glyndwr campaign in the late 1980s a HTV poll found that a majority of the Welsh population supported the aims of the campaign (rising to 87% in parts of the north). Does this make it a popular rising?” What percentage of the actual population of Wales actually replied? The difference between Meibion and movements such as the ANC/IRA for example was - 
A) They were fighting a national liberation struggle (in the case of the ANC against real white settlers under Apartheid) This can not be claimed in Wales. Where are the separate toilets for Welsh and English? Where is the discrimination the Catholic population suffered in the the north of Ireland for example?
B) Because of this oppression these movements had majority support of their respective populations.

“Contact and interviews, fine. But you cannot have the influence on this movement that you can on movements in Wales. Yet you appear to give this a higher priority.
..and ally youselves with openly reactionary and anti-WC Islamist currents.” Funnily enough, we used to get accused of this for calling for troops out now in the North of Ireland as well. I don’t see Catholicism as more or less reactionary than Islam. Like all religions they are full of contradictions. I do see a group of religious fundamentalists in the White House armed with nuclear weapons as the greater of threat to the world though. You seem to have a narrow view of internationalism. The reason we have been able to have contact/interviews in the first place is because of the role we have played in building/sustaining a mass anti war movement in the UK. When 2 million marched against the War in 2003 it sent shockwaves across the middle east. People asked questions such as ’are these people all Muslims?’ The fact that we obviously weren’t and that there were obviously socialists involved in the movement gave a platform to handfulls of socialists  in Arabic countries. It has led to the setting up of socialist organisations (some underground - hence I won’t name them) in some very repressive countries that I would never of dreamt of for one. I agree we should think globally - act locally; as the slogan goes. Hence over the last 3 weeks I have been on at least 3 local demo’s, not to mention the more routine political stuff

P.S. I only insult/smear those who insult/smear me/my organisation. Once all that stops the discussion gets interesting - less insults more discussion!


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## niclas (Oct 23, 2005)

RR: "There is considerable evidence that in the past the number of Welsh speakers was underdeclared. But none of this is of any interest to those here with a nationalist agenda whose political goal is a Welsh speaking national state. in a country in which the majority is English speaking and has no desire for such an outlandish and reactionary tribal atavism."

Anyone on here want a Welsh-speaking national state? Me neither. I just want an independent socialist Wales - if it's bilingual, excellent. If it's trilingual, even better.


RR: "You will not find positive mentions of any form of nationalism in the writings of Marx and Engels, the latter of whom was particularly well traveled in these isles. You will however find that both men made use of that good Hegelian category the non-historic nation which they most certainly saw Scotland as an example of."

A lot has happened in the past 150 years. 


PS

There's not a great internet site for the Welsh language (that I've found) - most of the info I've got comes from a book by Janet Davies called The Welsh Language (Y Lolfa). It suggests that the 1891 census was a watershed. 54.9% spoke Welsh and 69.7 spoke English (i.e. there were a good number of English and Welsh monoglots). In absolute terms, the highest number recorded in Wales (the numbers of Welsh speakers has never been recorded officially outside Wales) is in the 1911 census - I was wrong to say 1901 - at 977,366. Not including Patagonians.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 23, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Anyone on here want a Welsh-speaking national state? Me neither. I just want an independent socialist Wales - if it's bilingual, excellent. If it's trilingual, even better.
> 
> RR: "You will not find positive mentions of any form of nationalism in the writings of Marx and Engels, the latter of whom was particularly well traveled in these isles. You will however find that both men made use of that good Hegelian category the non-historic nation which they most certainly saw Scotland as an example of."
> 
> ...


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## roger rosewall (Oct 23, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> What percentage of the actual population of Wales actually replied? The difference between Meibion and movements such as the ANC/IRA for example was -
> A) They were fighting a national liberation struggle (in the case of the ANC against real white settlers under Apartheid)
> 
> Funnily enough, we used to get accused of this for calling for troops out now in the North of Ireland as well. I don’t see Catholicism as more or less reactionary than Islam.
> ...



A few brief points.

1/ You write that the ANC was fighting a national liberation struggle against white settlers. Could I ask when the SWP adopted this position and dropped iots previous, rather more nuanced, Marxist understanding of the nature of the white population of South Africa?

2/ I'm pleased you do not see Catholics as more reactionary as Islam. Do you then find each as reactionary as the other? Or are Catholics more reactionary than Islam? Perhaps they are equaly reactionary? Or equally progressive? Some clarification would be appreciated as at present your comment makes less sense than John Prescott on a bad day.

3/ You write that you only insult/smear others when they insult/smear your group. Which proves that you have a talent for comedy never suspected by your many admirers.


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## Redstar (Oct 23, 2005)

Well, at least there ain't 57 varieties of the welsh language, and I suspect from looking at this thread that even if most people in wales speak english, welsh is more comprehensible to them than anything the left comes out with nowadays...


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## nwnm (Oct 24, 2005)

"Well, at least there ain't 57 varieties of the welsh language, and I suspect from looking at this thread that even if most people in wales speak english, welsh is more comprehensible to them than anything the left comes out with nowadays..." Congatrulations! You must be the only person on here to have read all of our Rog's posts - we'll have to think of a special prize for you  

Sorry rog, I don't enter into debates about politics with people I know who have been expelled from the SWP. It would be a bit like two bald blokes arguing over a comb


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## roger rosewall (Oct 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> D
> 
> Sorry rog, I don't enter into debates about politics with people I know who have been expelled from the SWP. It would be a bit like two bald blokes arguing over a comb



There is no evidence that you have ever entered into debate with anyone D.

Rote repetition of a party line which you quite obviously fail to comprehend is not debate as most of us understand the term.

Sorry to hear you're balding btw.


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## Swan (Oct 25, 2005)

> roger rosewall.Having just returned from shopping at Walmart



Do you wear a Gap jumper,Caterpillar boots and carry a Nike bag when you go to hand over your money to this non-unionised multi- national shoppers paradise?

What would Marx say about your support of the workers of the world?  
                                                                                                                                                                                         .


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2005)

so, what's this all about then, exactly?


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## nwnm (Oct 25, 2005)

"so, what's this all about then, exactly?"

number 42 obviously


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## nwnm (Oct 25, 2005)

Thought anyone still holding onto their sanity in this discussion might be interested in this on Scotland -
http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=7656


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## roger rosewall (Oct 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Thought anyone still holding onto their sanity in this discussion might be interested in this on Scotland -
> http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/article.php?article_id=7656



It is curious that nwyn has posted a link to an article by a former member of the SWPlatform which does not rerpresent the views of the SWP. One cannot but wonder if nwyn is actually aware of events in his own organisation?

For example can nwyn tell us if former Cardiff SWP member Martin John has been expelled form the group for voting to dreprive many future civil service workers of pension rights he will enjoy?

For those wondering why Gregor Gall left the SWP the following link contains some answers. http://www.whatnextjournal.co.uk/Pages/Next/SWreply.html


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## nwnm (Oct 26, 2005)

it says much about the condition of the SWP that we are able to give such a critical/differing voice such a high priority/large piece in our paper. Its true Gregor left the SWP a while ago and didn't only centre on his differences over tactics in the SSP, and was a long time coming. See -
http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=54&issue=105
and
http://www.isj.org.uk/index.php4?id=55&issue=105

I published a link here to Gregor's piece as I thought it would be of interest. There are some people posting here as they are actually interested in the actual topic y'know. The letters page of Socialist Worker is always there to send a response to also..... (not for you though Rog obviously  )


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## zog (Oct 26, 2005)

last in the bin then?


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 26, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> last in the bin then?



Has there been an official "BIN/BAN " call yet, though?

If not, on behalf of the weary posters who turned up on the other Forward Wales thread...

BIN/BAN 

@ zog - I'll be last in if you don't mind


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## roger rosewall (Oct 26, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> it says much about the condition of the SWP that we are able to give such a critical/differing voice such a high priority/large piece in our paper. Its true Gregor left the SWP a while ago and didn't only centre on his differences over tactics in the SSP, and was a long time coming.
> 
> I published a link here to Gregor's piece as I thought it would be of interest. There are some people posting here as they are actually interested in the actual topic y'know. The letters page of Socialist Worker is always there to send a response to also..... (not for you though Rog obviously  )



It says much about the condition of the SWP that you re unable to debate those with opinions to the left of your own. Or for that matter argue for your own politics here in so far as you understand them that is.

Yes there were people interested in the topic debated here but you are not one of them. Your only interest is in retailing the line of the SWP and even then it is pretty damn obvious your understanding of it is poor.


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## King Biscuit Time (Oct 26, 2005)




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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 26, 2005)

Maybe this could help?? find out where they live QUICK


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 26, 2005)

We all know where this thread's going...


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## nwnm (Oct 26, 2005)

same direction as rog....


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## roger rosewall (Oct 26, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> We all know where this thread's going...



Into oblivion like Nwnm's long lost principles.


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## nwnm (Oct 26, 2005)

Blimey - he finally got my name right! Shame about everything else he's written


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## zog (Oct 27, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> It says much about the condition of the SWP that you re unable to debate those with opinions to the left of your own. Or for that matter argue for your own politics here in so far as you understand them that is.
> 
> Yes there were people interested in the topic debated here but you are not one of them. Your only interest is in retailing the line of the SWP and even then it is pretty damn obvious your understanding of it is poor.



Good stuff Roger... fighting right to the end. I like the spirit.

@ Col - I've never been involved with this last in the bin malarky - but Wales has never had the need until now.


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## roger rosewall (Oct 27, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Blimey - he finally got my name right! Shame about everything else he's written



For someone who refuses to debate with an expellee from the SWP you are very keen to post insults and smears.

"Shame about everything else" I have written? Well pretty much everything I have written here, other than comments concerning language perhaps, is far closer to the positions of the SWP than anything you have treated us to. But then you don't actually understand the politics of the SWP if you think the struggle in South Africa was against "White Settlers" do you?

All those books you have sold over the years and yet there is no evidence to prove you have actually read any of them. Such a shame.


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## nwnm (Oct 27, 2005)

" Well pretty much everything I have written here, other than comments concerning language perhaps, is far closer to the positions of the SWP than anything you have treated us to." Shame you never put those 'politics' into practice - then you wouldn't have got bloody well expelled (twice) would you?

(The 'white settlers' term was a throw away line comparing a real struggle against apartheid and some of the communique's issued Meibion Glyndwr FFS - not an analysis of the politics of South Africa oast and present)

This will be the only time I reply to you on these boards. You sound like a recovering alcoholic in an off licence man. You were thrown out of the SWP years ago - get over it and move on.


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## King Biscuit Time (Oct 27, 2005)

How about those Bears?
Reckon they could go all the way this season.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 27, 2005)

Time for elevenses anyone?


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 27, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> @ Col - I've never been involved with this last in the bin malarky - but Wales has never had the need until now.



Aye Zog, you can pass your "I've never done this last-in-the-bin" thing off on the unsuspecting Forward Wales posters, but not on the battle-hardened likes of me. Even by pretending to debate the last in the bin thing you are still trying to claim the last word and make sure you are last in the bin. Being last in the bin is a state of dialectical contradiction, as Heidegger pointed out in his famous work "Being and being last in the bin". Derrida's re-reading of this text amply illustrates how the contradiction of being last in the bin actually means the same as being first in the bin and this aporia is something that is clearly lost on the lost posters of the Forward Wales thread, who are incapable even of noticing this rampant derailing that is now taking place right under their noses, never mind finding the bin by themselves (long since overdue). And even if they did, I'd still be last in  Indeed, this is starting to resemble nothing so much as a CIA-sponsored velvet derail, and I think that between the crack suicide squad of yourself, KBT, LMHF and myself, we should be able to put an end to this long exahusted thread and ensure that I AM LAST IN THE BIN


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## roger rosewall (Oct 27, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Shame you never put those 'politics' into practice - then you wouldn't have got bloody well expelled (twice) would you?
> 
> (The 'white settlers' term was a throw away line comparing a real struggle against apartheid and some of the communique's issued Meibion Glyndwr FFS - not an analysis of the politics of South Africa oast and present)
> 
> This will be the only time I reply to you on these boards. You sound like a recovering alcoholic in an off licence man. You were thrown out of the SWP years ago - get over it and move on.



Do calm down Nwnm you're sounding quite unhinged. Yet again you make little sense. Let's look at your spittle flecked ravings point by point.

You say that had I put my politics into practice then I would not have been expelled. Which would suggest that I was expelled for inactivity but we both know that is a lie on your part. It also suggests that as long as one is active then misdeeds might go unpunished which is a curious reflection on your psychology are you hinting at some history personal to your esteemed self? And for what it's worth I've only ever been informed of one expulsion.

The White Settlers remark was typical of your lack of understanding of your own politics. Just as in the same post you discussed the national question in Northern Ireland as a matter of the oppression of Catholics. An interpretation of Northern Ireland common to simpletons everywhere but unknown in the pages of your declining sects publications.

Poor fellow you fail to recognise that due to the rotten abusive internal regime that operates in the SWP many good socialists have moved on. Out of interest do you think Martin John will 'move on' if and when he is expelled?

Go on reply you know you want to. You just lack the political knowledge, ability and talent to do so. It's never troubled you in the past so go on just make a little effort.


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 27, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Do calm down Nwnm you're sounding quite unhinged. Yet again you make little sense. Let's look at your spittle flecked ravings point by point.
> 
> You say that had I put my politics into practice then I would not have been expelled. Which would suggest that I was expelled for inactivity but we both know that is a lie on your part. It also suggests that as long as one is active then misdeeds might go unpunished which is a curious reflection on your psychology are you hinting at some history personal to your esteemed self? And for what it's worth I've only ever been informed of one expulsion.
> 
> ...



Fuck me, I've just realised, it's a conspiracy... the Forwards Wales posters actually have _everyone else on the boards_ on ignore. That's why they are ignoring us peeps   

Bin/Ban them all


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 27, 2005)

I like the idea of being in a crack suicide squad


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 27, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I like the idea of being in a crack suicide squad



You actually _read_ post #349?


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## zog (Oct 27, 2005)

I'm beginning to enjoy this tread a bit more now the personal insults are flying. though I wouldn't object to being last in.


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 27, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to enjoy this tread a bit more now the personal insults are flying. though I wouldn't object to being last in.



Look pal, I've fucken warned you about that before...

Now move along then. Eh? For your own safety...?


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## zog (Oct 27, 2005)

My god . you show a level of commitment above and beyond. 1 minute to trump my bin attempt. a true professional. If only forward wales had members like yourself....


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## roger rosewall (Oct 27, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> I'm beginning to enjoy this tread a bit more now the personal insults are flying. though I wouldn't object to being last in.



Hey look I like N. Back in the day we used to hang out a lot. Shit he shared a house with Chilango and a couple of my other friends. Come to think of it the last few times I've run into him he has been quite happy to chat. We even sold each other books only a few short weeks ago.

What makes his over reaction to a little teasing and some well merited criticisms of his group is the hypocrisy involved. If he had personally been concerned, at the time, with regard to the events that led to my expulsion from the SWP why did he hang out with myself and people known to be my friends? Why only in the last few weeks has his personal attitude towards myself and PD been friendly?

At bottom N is another victim of the SWP's degeneration. I feel a certain pity for him if truth be told. I can assure you that there will be no personal insults from myself having been subjected to smears in the past I have no wish to smear N. That sort of thing is his 'style' not mine as he admits.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 27, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> You actually _read_ post #349?



In the absence of anything else thats remotely amusing or interesting on this thread yeah.... Was the best idea thats been suggested so far too..

Now where do i sign up?


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## lewislewis (Oct 27, 2005)

Kinda funny that there aren't any Forward Wales members actually on this board/thread (thank God).

This thread needs to die!


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## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

lmhf "I like the idea of being in a crack suicide squad" Ah, but which would you prefer? The crack or the suicide?


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## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

"I'm beginning to enjoy this tread a bit more now the personal insults are flying. though I wouldn't object to being last in." Absolutely no f-ing way - you Posthadist


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## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

"Fuck me, I've just realised, it's a conspiracy... the Forwards Wales posters actually have everyone else on the boards on ignore. That's why they are ignoring us peeps" No! You've missed the point completely you libertarian counter revolutionary running dog of capitalism! We even have each other on ignore! Nobody has a clue what they are replying to, thats why most of it makes no fucking sense! Its a sort of post modern post (ahem). There is no grand narrative to this text.....only images of discourse


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## zog (Oct 28, 2005)

Posthadist!!!??? I had to google that one without any sucess. Is this some sort of 4th internationalist humor?


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

sort of! And there I was thinking you were into space travel and all


----------



## zog (Oct 28, 2005)

all depends on the method of propulsion


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

avoid the stuff they use on the space shuttle   (I'm off to bed with my horlicks now..... c u all 2morrow on the post they couldn't kill   )


----------



## zog (Oct 28, 2005)

i recon we have about 12 hours to seriously de-rail this tread. Switch them points Col we got a runaway train.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> i recon we have about 12 hours to seriously de-rail this tread. Switch them points Col we got a runaway train.



... do you like Charlotte Church? I used to when she was 5, she was a right little minx then alright and I set my alarm clock to wake me up when she would be 48 and selling copies of Socialist Worker outside Albany Rd post office, cos that way I would at least be able to have a conversation with her about historical materialism. Her dialectical opposition seems to be in fine form, tho.

Phooowarrr...

_(will that do?)_


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Now where do i sign up?



LMHF, you'll find the kit in Primark. Once you're tooled up, meet me outside the u75 Forward Wales thread server, located in the broom cupboard in Minskys, and we'll send these bingo heads to kingdom come


----------



## osterberg (Oct 28, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> Hey look I like N. Back in the day we used to hang out a lot. Shit he shared a house with Chilango and a couple of my other friends. Come to think of it the last few times I've run into him he has been quite happy to chat. We even sold each other books only a few short weeks ago.
> 
> What makes his over reaction to a little teasing and some well merited criticisms of his group is the hypocrisy involved. If he had personally been concerned, at the time, with regard to the events that led to my expulsion from the SWP why did he hang out with myself and people known to be my friends? Why only in the last few weeks has his personal attitude towards myself and PD been friendly?
> 
> At bottom N is another victim of the SWP's degeneration. I feel a certain pity for him if truth be told. I can assure you that there will be no personal insults from myself having been subjected to smears in the past I have no wish to smear N. That sort of thing is his 'style' not mine as he admits.



 This is _really_ relevant to a discussion on Forward Wales,isn't it?

Old grudges.How boring.

Bin please! Now!


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> This is _really_ relevant to a discussion on Forward Wales,isn't it?
> 
> Old grudges.How boring.
> 
> Bin please! Now!



Yay! I reckon if we get five bin/ban requests in a row we're in with a good chance of a binning by request, so here' #2. Btw, Ossie, RR's post would seem to be indulging in discussion of real people in real life, which is probably a binnable offence in its own right, so... REPORT the post  That way you'll multiply our chances of nailing this fucking thread and cover yourself in glory at the same time.

Or get banned for wasting the mods time.

Anyway, as you were.

BIN/BAN  (#2)


----------



## zog (Oct 28, 2005)

I allways thought Charlotte was in Militant when she was younger.

Either way bin/ban (#3)


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 28, 2005)

BIN/BAN


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

thats only 4!


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> thats only 4!



Fucking splitter   (and there was me thinking the trots always *overestimated* numbers, esp on demos )

I'll give you five more minutes to edit that post...


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 28, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> LMHF, you'll find the kit in Primark. Once you're tooled up, meet me outside the u75 Forward Wales thread server, located in the broom cupboard in Minskys, and we'll send these bingo heads to kingdom come



Are we heading cutting edge fashion/sequins and schparkle but cheap as dirt or chavtastisc?

Its important I believe to create the right impression in minskys wouldnt you say?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

Well the bloke in the picture looks like one of the regulars from The Tredegar (RIP Adamsdown's own local crack den ), so that would deffo mean chav-fabulous. And I'm sure that dynamite belt has a Kappa logo on the side...

Btw, you forgot your "bin/ban" request. FFS, where's the bloody discipline gone on this derail??


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 28, 2005)

Oh errr yeah bin/ban

If yer like an all innnit Braaa


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

"I'll give you five more minutes to edit that post..." no no not yet.... we haven't discissed the dialectical imperatives of 'Adrian Mole - the Glue Sniffing Years'


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "I'll give you five more minutes to edit that post..." no no not yet.... we haven't discissed the dialectical imperatives of 'Adrian Mole - the Glue Sniffing Years'



Is that a _ derail of a derail_?

Damn, these Forwardians are cleverer than we thought!

_Kittens... post your piccies up here!_


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

its called inter-railing


----------



## osterberg (Oct 28, 2005)

Can I do a 2nd bin/ban request?

If so BIN BIN  BIN BINNY BIN BIN!!!!!

Please.For the sake of my mental health.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

wot - and put all those nurses out of work?


----------



## roger rosewall (Oct 28, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> Posthadist!!!??? I had to google that one without any sucess. Is this some sort of 4th internationalist humor?



He means Posadist. There is no such thing as Posthadist. As ever he doesn't know what he's talking about.

For those unaware, this means you D, Juan Posados (Homero Cristalli, was a Trotskyist leader in Argentina. he led a small international current that postulated that if UFO's existed then they were proof that other planets must be socialist.


----------



## roger rosewall (Oct 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> wot - and pot all those nurses out of work?



Gross 'economism'. Can't you get any aspect of your own politics right?

Bin/ban. No 5 I believe.

Out of sheer boredom of N's attempts at homour!


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

No Posthadist as in post posadist (like postmodernist)


----------



## zog (Oct 28, 2005)




----------



## osterberg (Oct 28, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

>


 Is the kitten yawning because it read one of Roger's posts?


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 28, 2005)

roger rosewall said:
			
		

> He means Posadist. There is no such thing as Posthadist. As ever he doesn't know what he's talking about.
> 
> For those unaware, this means you D, Juan Posados (Homero Cristalli, was a Trotskyist leader in Argentina. he led a small international current that postulated that if UFO's existed then they were proof that other planets must be socialist.



Dear dear Im slowly losing the will to live


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 28, 2005)

This threads like an old incontinent sheepdog thats had it's day.

Take it into the yard with a twelve bore and blow the mother away.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

"Take it into the yard with a twelve bore and blow the mother away." You mean the sheepdogs mother is still alive? What sort of a state must she be in


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Oct 28, 2005)

Don't change the subject.

When will this thread die?


----------



## zog (Oct 28, 2005)




----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

haven't seen a mogwai for ages - don't feed it after midnight...


----------



## roger rosewall (Oct 28, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> haven't seen a mogwai for ages - don't feed it after midnight...



Their native to Scotland the Mogwai thats why you can't find you in these here parts.

But I thought it your principles that have not been seen for ages.

If you saw them again would you recognise them?


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

oh shit its too late! You've gone and done it! now there'll be lots of little Rog's running about wrecking the place and watching Snow white and the 7 dwarves in the cinema if we don't keep him away from water. We have a gremlin on the notice board


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

zog, you can have last in the bin just for the full-on kitten pictures you've posted. I bow in deference.



(Ms. Buendia wants a kitten now, tho.  )


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

that was'nt a moggie it was a mogwai I tells ya


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 28, 2005)

Y'know if you type "socialist kitten" into Google image search, you get this...


----------



## nwnm (Oct 28, 2005)

nice jugs


----------



## zog (Oct 29, 2005)

I can get you as many kittens as you need. I have a near unending supply of the little critters. can't always get the colour you want  (or often the correct amount of legs). but in household zog: kittens-r-us.

I've managed to shift 5 of the little buggers this year and one is chewing on my toe as I type.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 29, 2005)

what flavours have you got?


----------



## socialistcelt (Oct 29, 2005)

Just to be different! Did anyone see Georgie on the Frank Skinner show last night? I thought he was rather amusing and still firing on all cylinders against a rather boring Frank.
This thread has gone off the trail and taken several detours some very funny some I just don't get, but can some one plz have the final say and start another thread so we can start all over again?


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 29, 2005)

I have no idea what you're talking about?


----------



## nwnm (Oct 29, 2005)

The skinner shows on itv2 are I think repeats. I have some vague memory of Galloway being on one. You'll be able to catch him in the flesh in Cardiff on (I think) nov 13th as part of the speaking tour he's doing


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 29, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> The skinner shows on itv2 are I think repeats. I have some vague memory of Galloway being on one. You'll be able to catch him in the flesh in Cardiff on (I think) nov 13th as part of the speaking tour he's doing



Judging by your nice jugs 'joke' you share a sense of humour with Skinner and Galloway.

Mr Galloway is charging £14 for the privilige of attending his stand up show. No concessions.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 29, 2005)

God rog, I actually liked the jugs and have been looking for something similar for my humble abode, (I know its a bit PB but there you go)  . Its not the mouths these things come out of - but the minds they go into that count. I believe our George may be planning a RESPECT event for the same day. When details are firmed up I'll let those who are interested know.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 30, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> God rog, I actually liked the jugs and have been looking for something similar for my humble abode, (I know its a bit PB but there you go)  . Its not the mouths these things come out of - but the minds they go into that count. I believe our George may be planning a RESPECT event for the same day. When details are firmed up I'll let those who are interested know.



Again I find myself baffled by your remarks. Don't bother explaining however your 'joke' spoke loud enough.

I must correct your comment about "our George". He's not your George you are his SWP.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 30, 2005)

Theres a branch of the SWP in Wales thats still trying to recover an active female membership since the last time you cracked a 'joke' as an SWP member..... Your attempts at morality are a little banal.

Now stop trying to play the internet guardian of marxist thought - as the old adage goes 'no ervolutionary theory without revolutionary practice'. I have nothing against you personally. (We haven't always got on since your expulsion by the way, we had a bloody great punch up, which had to be broken up).


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 30, 2005)

Dear god " hes not your georgie, hes my georgie" Bicker bicker fucking bicker
Do you realise what you sound like spouting your playground infantile pap???

Just bin this shite now


----------



## socialistcelt (Oct 30, 2005)

I think there is bad Karma on this thread.   I think we must all adopt the lotus possition and breeeath!!!   

Just in case you need to be uplifted-I found the following link very entertaining. Click on the bush and play around. This thread definately needs help...  

http://www.wimp.com/doll/


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Oct 30, 2005)

Another bizarre anti-English rant from a Plaid Cymru bigot obsessed with the purity of the Welsh master race

Cllr. Adam Speake hits out at unemployed English immigrants who hang around and oggle single mums

http://icnorthwales.icnetwork.co.uk...aim-over-the--ogling-english---name_page.html

"Whether you like it or not, many people locally are very concerned about people moving in from England - and not working - and hanging around town in pubs 'ogling' young single parent mothers"


----------



## Redstar (Oct 30, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Another bizarre anti-English rant from a Plaid Cymru bigot obsessed with the purity of the Welsh master race
> 
> Cllr. Adam Speake hits out at unemployed English immigrants who hang around and oggle single mums
> 
> ...



 It always staggers me that tossers on the Left can attack Plaid Cymru for basically pointing out the obvious (that people are coming to Cymru from the big social centres of England and causing all sorts of social problems), while at the same time jumping into bed with oversized egos like George Galloway who make anti-semitic attacks on people like Oona King (and didn't I hear that George is targetting another Jewish candidate in another seat in his latest crusade?).

 Oh, and let's not point out the Left's flirtation with the mysoginistic, homophobic Islamic Lobby. 

 Most of the Left today in Cymru is made up of patronizing English tossers who have no understanding of the real social issues which face ordinary working class welsh people. They are nothing but colonists, and as they support a British State (you know, the one that invaded Iraq?), they are basically British Nationalists. 

 Udo Erasmus? Yer talkin' Outta Uranus!


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 30, 2005)

Udo, nobody cares about concepts such as 'Welsh master race'. How would Plaid's Muslim councillors react if we supported that kind of idea ! 

Plaid councillors can say what they like, let the electorate judge Mr Speake, we'll see what they think then. 

SWP mates with Galloway, thought he hated 'Trotskyist apparatchiks'...   yes they were the very words he used to describe your chums the SSP. George 'the collapse of the Soviet Union was the greatest tragedy of my life' Galloway.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 30, 2005)

I can see the headlines now "Welsh Nat Arsehole Joins Debate So Late, He Misses The Fact That Most Of His Points Have Already Been Dealt With - Shock!"

The anti-Semitism crap has already been dealt with by a large number of RESPECT's Jewish members. I would suggest that you wouldn't resort to the politics of the gutter - but judging by your anti English comments, you are more than happy to live there. Maybe you should change your name to 'Saunders rools' or something equally non socialist......

C'mon lewislewis, I wouldn't equate Plaid with Fascists (a tad provocative I must say), but that Galloway quote is a bit old hat - he's been on the platform with SSP members since then, and called on people to vote for them. Peoples ideas do change due to struggles they are involved in. Thats the dynamic of history, (he remains wrong on Russia though...)


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 30, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Theres a branch of the SWP in Wales thats still trying to recover an active female membership since the last time you cracked a 'joke' as an SWP member..... Your attempts at morality are a little banal.
> 
> Now stop trying to play the internet guardian of marxist thought - as the old adage goes 'no ervolutionary theory without revolutionary practice'. I have nothing against you personally. (We haven't always got on since your expulsion by the way, we had a bloody great punch up, which had to be broken up).



Look with with the greatest possible respect you really are talking out of your arse. You make things up and repeat lies which you I suspect you do not believe in the first place. Now you invent "a bloody great punch up between us". 

Look if there had ever been "a bloody great punch up between us" chances are I would have ended up in hospital. Chilango, PD and Carl, all of whom were present, will agree that the incident was not as you claim. What did happen was more than a bit pathetic really. You refused to listen to my side of events and I tried to prevent you leaving a room and tempers were frayed. Not a bad scene and very bad karma but no fight. Stop lying.

As for the idea that there is an SWP branch lacking active female members over a decade after i was expelled you are talking complete and total shite. IF any female members had quit as a result of my alleged crimes you have had well over ten years to recruit more. Ten years.

In fact not a single member of the SWP quit. The one person I was accused of harassing was still an active member when she left Wales nearly a year later. Indeed for a short period we shared a house so 'frightened' of me was she and was still a member some months later when I ran into her on a demonstration in London. Look you have precious few active members of either sex and after over ten years that is the fault of the SWP not yrs truly.

Finally stop trying to tell me what to do. If I choose to defend Marxist ideas in this or any other forum that is no concern of yours. You may, if you are able, attempt to debate with me but you cannot prevent me from defending my point of view. As for revolutionary practice I would suggest that you desist from discussing something you have no conception of gven your own sub-reformist practice as a member of the populist Respect.


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 30, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> C'mon lewislewis, I wouldn't equate Plaid with Fascists (a tad provocative I must say), but that Galloway quote is a bit old hat - he's been on the platform with SSP members since then, and called on people to vote for them. Peoples ideas do change due to struggles they are involved in. Thats the dynamic of history, (he remains wrong on Russia though...)



When confronted with the quote concerning Trotskyists Galloway replied that the SWP aren't realy Trotskyists if I remember correctly. I suspect that Galloway is correct on this and that ideas do change as Nwnm has so sagely remarked.


----------



## lewislewis (Oct 30, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> When confronted with the quote concerning Trotskyists Galloway replied that the SWP aren't realy Trotskyists if I remember correctly. I suspect that Galloway is correct on this and that ideas do change as Nwnm has so sagely remarked.



I agree with that.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 30, 2005)

Rog  - your memory is as dodgy as your politics. The intervention of the others did prevent a nasty mess on the carpet though.

We are in a position to recruit now having done away with the last vestiges of your 'legacy' (no one quit as you were expelled)

You do not defend marxist ideas - you debase them. Somebody who was a self confessed SWP hack until your expulsion ("Tony Cliff is such a lovely gentle guy"), and then discovers he's some sort of oppositionist is no sort of opponent at all. That is why I don't debate 'politics' with you


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 31, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> Rog  - your memory is as dodgy as your politics. The intervention of the others did prevent a nasty mess on the carpet though.
> 
> We are in a position to recruit now having done away with the last vestiges of your 'legacy' (no one quit as you were expelled)
> 
> You do not defend marxist ideas - you debase them. Somebody who was a self confessed SWP hack until your expulsion ("Tony Cliff is such a lovely gentle guy"), and then discovers he's some sort of oppositionist is no sort of opponent at all. That is why I don't debate 'politics' with you



You do not debate politics with anyone. A good thing to as you appear to have little or no knowledge of it. For example an oppositionist is not an opponent. That you see an identity between them does speak to your lack of grounding in Marxism however.

With regard to the incident we are discussing it can be confirmed by those others present. All the bluster and bullshit in the world does not wipe the fact that your version of the incident is garbage.

As for that legacy of mine are you really sure it took over a dozen years to wipe it away? Was I responsible for the near total collapse of Cardiff SWP with which I had no contact for over a dozen years? Could you explain how my legacy led all those people to leave or drift away?

Your invented quote is quite amusing I give you that. Speaking of Tony Cliff he described the Muslim Brotherhood as clerical fascists as you may know. Do you not feel that it debases Marxism to enter into an alliance with such clerical fascists? And is this not a policy advocated by the SWP?


----------



## nwnm (Oct 31, 2005)

your conversation style is as bad as your posts - thats enough to drive anyone away


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 31, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> your conversation style is as bad as your posts - thats enough to drive anyone away



It is possible that I have a conversational style - although I do not have a conversation style whatever that is - but only an idiot would suggest that it led to the near total collapse of a group with which I have had no contact since the early 1990's.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 31, 2005)




----------



## osterberg (Oct 31, 2005)

socialistcelt said:
			
		

> I think there is bad Karma on this thread.   I think we must all adopt the lotus possition and breeeath!!!
> 
> Just in case you need to be uplifted-I found the following link very entertaining. Click on the bush and play around. This thread definately needs help...
> 
> http://www.wimp.com/doll/



Thank you.
I needed that.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 31, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> <snip> the near total collapse of a group with which I have had no contact since the early 1990's.



What was lacking in order for it to be a "total collapse", btw? Some of us have been hoping for that for years, so it might be good to know. Like.


----------



## nogojones (Oct 31, 2005)

> That is why I don't debate 'politics' with you



So what have the last 10 pages been about? Just willy waving?

There has been numerous requests for this tread to be binned and I'm joining it. If you want to slag your mates off and bitch about who's been expelled and still buys your books then take it over to P&P. Their more used to that sort of shite over there.

As for blaming the SWP's demise in Wales on someone's behaviour towards women in a branch 10 years ago, well, I think thats wishful thinking. 

From my experience I've found that SWP members and quite a lot of the left in general have dificulty relating to people in the real world. Your ranks were filled with people who the rest of the world shunned for one reason or another (with a couple of notable exeptions). This includes yourself nwnm/Des. Your attempts at humour are cringeworthy, you are an embarassment to the left. Take this nonsense away from these boards before you get reported to the central committe and purged.

Bin/ban, otherwise I will be bringing out the kittens as well.


----------



## osterberg (Oct 31, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> What was lacking in order for it to be a "total collapse", btw? Some of us have been hoping for that for years, so it might be good to know. Like.


 Personally speaking,I've been hoping for the collapse of capitalism rather than the collapse of a small socialist group.


----------



## Col_Buendia (Oct 31, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> Personally speaking,I've been hoping for the collapse of capitalism rather than the collapse of a small socialist group.



Yes, but you haven't grasped the essential dialectic process involved in the two... the first won't come before the second, Ossie, mark my words


----------



## neprimerimye (Oct 31, 2005)

nogojones said:
			
		

> So what have the last 10 pages been about? Just willy waving?
> 
> As for blaming the SWP's demise in Wales on someone's behaviour towards women in a branch 10 years ago, well, I think thats wishful thinking.
> 
> From my experience I've found that SWP members and quite a lot of the left in general have dificulty relating to people in the real world. Your ranks were filled with people who the rest of the world shunned for one reason or another (with a couple of notable exeptions). This includes yourself nwnm/Des. Your attempts at humour are cringeworthy, you are an embarassment to the left. Take this nonsense away from these boards before you get reported to the central committe and purged.



Much of the last ten pages have been about Nwnm attempting to blow smoke as he felt aggrieved that I refered to him as apolitical. The really stupid thing is that no one but he and I knew who I was talking about. Which is why he has gone out of his way to claim that the SWP has for the last dozen years plus been stymied by the alleged harrassment of women by myself.

I strongly disagree that much of the far left has difficulties relating to the real world. The fact is that much of the far left relates badly to the real world because they are trapped in groups that erect their own organsational needs over those of the working class. This ensures that otherwise good decent people will sometimes act a bit odd by going on about shit that no one in their right minds could give a damn about.

And I exclude myself from any claim to being 'normal' btw. Some people are genuinely a bit peculiar. It's a chemical imbalance. I don't actually endorse tht idea btw but you gets me drift like.


----------



## nwnm (Oct 31, 2005)

"From my experience I've found that SWP members and quite a lot of the left in general have dificulty relating to people in the real world. Your ranks were filled with people who the rest of the world shunned for one reason or another" Judging by most of your posts on urban - you'd have trouble recognising the real world, and your best mate is probably a result of something you've taken.

No one has said that a certain persons attitude to women caused the demise of the entire swp in wales - lay off the chemicals! "Theres a branch of the SWP in Wales thats still trying to recover an active female membership since the last time you cracked a 'joke' as an SWP member"(i.e. this branch still has female members - but they are not very politically active). Actually the SWP in Wales is looking healthier than it has in ages.

"So what have the last 10 pages been about?" Funnily enough it was about Forward Wales to start off with. Some of the discussion was interesting. Some people found they had more in common than they did when they started out, some people whilst still not agreeing at least appreciate where the other is coming from. And with others you get the impression that they wouldn't try to find any form of agreement even if they were one of 2 survivors of a nuclear holocaust. the only thing to do with the latter is either wind em up or put them on the old ignore list. No prizes for guessing which single bodied double act is on mine,,,,,,


----------



## neprimerimye (Nov 1, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> No one has said that a certain persons attitude to women caused the demise of the entire swp in wales - lay off the chemicals! "Theres a branch of the SWP in Wales thats still trying to recover an active female membership since the last time you cracked a 'joke' as an SWP member"(i.e. this branch still has female members - but they are not very politically active). Actually the SWP in Wales is looking healthier than it has in ages.



Darn its a let down to be told one did not cause the near total collapse of south east Wales SWP.

I'm still baffled how my alleged infractions OVER TEN YEARS AGO are responsible for the failure of the SWP to develop or recruit female members this century. Oh well nevermind.


----------



## nwnm (Nov 1, 2005)

sorry haven't got a clue what you just wrote - neither do I give a toss, Lurve this ignore list thang. No more Pearney. Does it work with people not on here like kids and stuff?


----------



## osterberg (Nov 1, 2005)

deleted 
Bye


----------



## osterberg (Nov 1, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Yes, but you haven't grasped the essential dialectic process involved in the two... the first won't come before the second, Ossie, mark my words


Very droll.  
I know that the SWP can be a pain in the bum sometimes but I was just trying to make the point that they're not the real enemy.
Maybe I just want everybody here to be nice to each other and to all be friends.


----------



## chilango (Nov 1, 2005)

I left this thread some time ago as the debate (limited as it was) had been derailed by nwnms dishonest and frankly nasty actions (sorry D). I`ve only returned to point out (if anyone cares) that whilst I disagree with Rog/nepremthingy on much of his argument, nwnm is lying to us here.   I was sadly there. 

If there is still debate to be had I`ll add my point of view (an idigenist anarchist one if you like).

But the thread does illustrate the problem of trying to dabte with certain leading SWP members, so it has been useful in that respect.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 1, 2005)

i love the SWP.


----------



## nogojones (Nov 1, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> I left this thread some time ago as the debate (limited as it was) had been derailed by nwnms dishonest and frankly nasty actions (sorry D). I`ve only returned to point out (if anyone cares) that whilst I disagree with Rog/nepremthingy on much of his argument, nwnm is lying to us here.   I was sadly there.
> 
> If there is still debate to be had I`ll add my point of view (an idigenist anarchist one if you like).
> 
> But the thread does illustrate the problem of trying to dabte with certain leading SWP members, so it has been useful in that respect.




Heavens. If nwnm is a leading member I'd hate to have to talk to the clueless ones.


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 1, 2005)

"One more post... one more post on this thread and you're an ex-urbanite..."


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## nogojones (Nov 1, 2005)

Ooohhhh. You scare me Col. How many bullets you got left?


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 1, 2005)

nogojones said:
			
		

> Ooohhhh. You scare me Col. How many bullets you got left?



I know what you're thinking. "Did he make six posts or only five?" Well, to tell you the truth, in all this Forward Wales excitement I kind of lost track myself... So, you've gotta ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel lucky?'. Well, do ya, poster?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 1, 2005)

chilango said:
			
		

> I left this thread some time ago as the debate (limited as it was) had been derailed by nwnms dishonest and frankly nasty actions (sorry D). I`ve only returned to point out (if anyone cares) that whilst I disagree with Rog/nepremthingy on much of his argument, nwnm is lying to us here.   I was sadly there.
> 
> If there is still debate to be had I`ll add my point of view (an idigenist anarchist one if you like).
> 
> But the thread does illustrate the problem of trying to dabte with certain leading SWP members, so it has been useful in that respect.



Chilango was around for much of the crap that took place over ten years ago. In fact he was around when Nwnm's imaginary "bloody great fight" took place and as he says Nwnm is lying his arse off.

Which I think a bloody pity as I have never held any animus against Nwnm. Contempt since that evening yes but animus no.

The sad truth is that the SWP in Wales has been led by dross for many a long year. The near total collapse of a branch that in the early 1990's could claim 50 members to todays bare half dozen activists is no one's fault but their own.

But the SWP cannot be wrong and scapegoats must be found. In this case Nwnm's failure to muster any kind of an argument has led to his reviving old canards against yrs truly. Prestige must be defended even if the truth is the victim.

As for the real topic of discussion, socialism or nationalism in Wales, I'll take that up again if anyone wishes to do so. I'd be interested in Chilango's left liberal viewpoint particularly. But this thread is a monstrosity so not here.

PS Nwnm you lie again. We both know that you will continue to read my posts here. You cannot help but do so. I truly feel pity for you.


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## nwnm (Nov 2, 2005)

The debate finished about 8 pages ago but if you lot want to carry on swapping insults then fine


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> The debate finished about 8 pages ago but if you lot want to carry on swapping insults then fine



Indeed the debate finished a while back but you never took part. As for insults they have all come from you. The lies and distortions likewise. My expression of pity for you is not an insult but an expression of sympathy.

Btw this most recent post of yours proves my point that despite your claim to the contrary you would continue rading my posts. Again you have proven yourself a liar.

You bore me.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 2, 2005)

nogojones said:
			
		

> Heavens. If nwnm is a leading member I'd hate to have to talk to the clueless ones.


You wouldnt have to talk to them- You could just read their manifesto


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## osterberg (Nov 2, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Indeed the debate finished a while back but you never took part. As for insults they have all come from you. The lies and distortions likewise. My expression of pity for you is not an insult but an expression of sympathy.
> 
> Btw this most recent post of yours proves my point that despite your claim to the contrary you would continue rading my posts. Again you have proven yourself a liar.
> 
> You bore me.


If he bores you,why keep posting?


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## ZIZI (Nov 2, 2005)

Um, being a new poster, can anyone join in or do you have to be in a Gang to throw insults? This is the most liveliest thread of them all, so I thought I would try my first post  with the best.
If you got to be in a gang, is there any vacancies for a early thirties, broad minded, not bad looking, fairly intelligent, student of life and up for most things bloke.?


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## osterberg (Nov 2, 2005)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Um, being a new poster, can anyone join in or do you have to be in a Gang to throw insults? This is the most liveliest thread of them all, so I thought I would try my first post  with the best.
> If you got to be in a gang, is there any vacancies for a early thirties, broad minded, not bad looking, fairly intelligent, student of life and up for most things bloke.?


Welcome.But I'm afraid you seem far too well adjusted for this thread.


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 2, 2005)

Let.

This.

Thread.

Die.

A.

Natural.

*Death.*









_....pleeeeeeeease......._


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## osterberg (Nov 2, 2005)

By the way,I see my plea for universal harmony has gone unheeded.


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## nwnm (Nov 2, 2005)

Chilango wrote - "If there is still debate to be had I`ll add my point of view " I replied to that. The only reason I know mikey babes is still whingeing on about me is 'cause osterberg quoted him.

"If he bores you,why keep posting?" BECAUSE HE HAS NO FRIENDS. THIS IS THE CLOSEST HE GETS TO SOCIAL (OR ANY OTHER) INTERCOURSE!


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> If he bores you,why keep posting?



I've a high threshold for boredom having sat through many an SWP meeting.

Ok I'll stop now and let the afflicted have the last word.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 2, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I've a high threshold for boredom having sat through many an SWP meeting.



At the risk of being a little cheeky, you should consider how the rest of us feel having to read your long essays/monologues on these boards. Try some light editing and get things a bit more concise. Stop deluding yourself that you are the next British Lenin!
 

And why the sudden change from Roger to Neprimerimye as your internet nom-de-plume?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 2, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> At the risk of being a little cheeky, you should consider how the rest of us feel having to read your long essays/monologues on these boards. Try some light editing and get things a bit more concise. Stop deluding yourself that you are the next British Lenin!
> 
> 
> And why the sudden change from Roger to Neprimerimye as your internet nom-de-plume?



Oh poor Udo no one forces you to read anything on these boards.

As for being a British Lenin I'm neither British or a 'Leninist'.

As for delusions I rarely read SW.

The id change is down to my recent deletion of cookies cos of a worm on this machine.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 2, 2005)

osterberg said:
			
		

> By the way,I see my plea for universal harmony has gone unheeded.


and my shut up if you cant say anything without mudslinging... oh well  
BIN


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## zog (Nov 2, 2005)




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## nwnm (Nov 2, 2005)

"and my shut up if you cant say anything without mudslinging... oh well "
But miss! Miss! there was this big muddy puddle in the middle of the playground, and we couldn't help ourselves......We tried playing skimming stones first but one of them bounced out and caught that new boy ZIZI in the face, then a few people started shouting "liar liar pants on fire", zog wanted to do horrible things to kittens and the colonel wanted to kill someone. So it all got out of hand from there. The only good boy was osterberg - and he keeps listening to that "lust for life" song over and over again anyway......


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## ZIZI (Nov 3, 2005)

"We tried playing skimming stones first but one of them bounced out and caught that new boy ZIZI in the face",
What have I done?   

There was me thinking you were a nice person and would fight with words and not sticks and stones.
Thats it, I m not going to put you on my buddy list now. Im deeply hurt.


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## nwnm (Nov 3, 2005)

It wasn't my skimming stone honest! Now go and see the school nurse - she'll make it better. I'm off for a game of marbles myself. Theres quite a few in here that have lost theres


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