# Fracking attempt begins in Manchester



## Bingo (Nov 25, 2013)

Another one's started...

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/fracking-fury-protesters-angry-gas-6334597


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2013)

At least one arrest today, with a protestor reportedly having his face dragged across the tarmac by police. 

After similar instances of brutality at Balcombe earlier this year, it seems like there's a clear 'gloves off' policy towards dealing with anti-fracking protests. More observers are needed at the protest camp to make sure that the actions of the police are documented and made public.

The police are now acting as de facto private security for gas companies. This is where our taxes are going, while state support for clean energy technologies is cut back and contracts for new nuclear power stations are handed to the lowest bidder.


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## Bingo (Nov 27, 2013)

No-one really seems arsed if its not in a posh bit of the Sunny South


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## everything2go (Nov 27, 2013)

There's also the time of year/weather that I think will dissuade many from taking part. Me, I love a good winter camp.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 27, 2013)

I'll be heading out there at some point next week.


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## friedaweed (Nov 27, 2013)

It's a really nice area that


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## Mr.Bishie (Nov 27, 2013)

Bingo said:


> No-one really seems arsed if its not in a posh bit of the Sunny South



A bit of woodland in the countryside isn't posh. The cunt who owns it is though.


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## sunny jim (Nov 28, 2013)

I stayed at Balcombe a couple of times but was put off staying more by the amount of troofers and wingnuts there. When you have supposed 'environmentalists' going on about 'chemtrails' from planes rather than the impact C02 emissions have and how flying closer to the stratosphere causes these gases to increase global warming at a faster rate, you realise lots of people there were just bonkers. Its a shame campaigns like these get populated by these nutters as its gonna put people off joining in.


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## Red Storm (Nov 28, 2013)

_Salford _not Manchester.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 28, 2013)

*UK: Anti-fracking campaigners gather at Barton Moss, Irlam*

http://www.demotix.com/news/3353380/uk-anti-fracking-campaigners-gather-barton-moss-irlam


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## krink (Nov 28, 2013)

slightly off topic but i saw a video where some anti-fracker was being harassed by some kind of social services about her kids. wtf is that about?


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## Bingo (Nov 28, 2013)

that must be recent down at Salford... scum.


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## abstract1 (Nov 28, 2013)

krink said:


> slightly off topic but i saw a video where some anti-fracker was being harassed by some kind of so, cial services about her kids. wtf is that about?




Bish showed me this - a quick search throws up this: http://www.salford.gov.uk/childconcern.htm

I'd wager, given the attitude and style/nature of questions, that was a police officer - it would be pretty unusual for a SW to follow someone around in that kind of setting, asking questions like that.


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## where to (Nov 28, 2013)

friedaweed said:


> It's a really nice area that



i thought opposition to fracking was less about visual impact - the sites are pretty small from what i understand - and more about the risks to local communities, particularly contamination.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 29, 2013)

krink said:


> slightly off topic but i saw a video where some anti-fracker was being harassed by some kind of social services about her kids. wtf is that about?




Although many know what it means, the phrase "multi agency unit" that she describes herself as being from is one of the foulest pieces of Newspeak I've heard in a while, given the context.


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## friedaweed (Nov 29, 2013)

where to said:


> i thought opposition to fracking was less about visual impact - the sites are pretty small from what i understand - and more about the risks to local communities, particularly contamination.


And your point is caller?

It's still a nice area isn't anyone allowed to point that out

Seen as you've raised it though....
There's several woods and nature reserves, and a childrens home in that area plus Irlam itself has a significantly large population with several social housing schemes one of which is a stones throw from the proposed drill site. Contamination's a risk to both the natural habitat and those local committees is it not?.  The surrounding areas are some of the few pockets of wildlife sanctuaries left which are lodged between the ever expanding sprawl of Manchester and Warrington. The irony is the local authorities have probably spent probably millions of pounds worth of conservation funding turning this area into a place for people to walk along the river and take a stroll round the woods. 

Anyway as you point out the local communities and the local environment are at risk nice place or not however it is a pretty nice place. I can recommend the Swan Pub in Rixton for a nice Sunday lunch after a bike ride round that area.


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## jakethesnake (Nov 29, 2013)

Threatening protesters via their kids is an old tactic of the state - I remember reading about the Greenham women being threatened with social services.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 29, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I stayed at Balcombe a couple of times but was put off staying more by the amount of troofers and wingnuts there. When you have supposed 'environmentalists' going on about 'chemtrails' from planes rather than the impact C02 emissions have and how flying closer to the stratosphere causes these gases to increase global warming at a faster rate, you realise lots of people there were just bonkers. Its a shame campaigns like these get populated by these nutters as its gonna put people off joining in.


I suppose it's inevitable.

However most of the footage I watched (on Youtube) covering the protest came from Ian R Crane, who, despite being a truther and a conspiranaut, seemed reasonably informed about fracking. Unfortunately you have to also tune out the 'green politics is all a conspiracy' aspect as well.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I stayed at Balcombe a couple of times but was put off staying more by the amount of troofers and wingnuts there. When you have supposed 'environmentalists' going on about 'chemtrails' from planes rather than the impact C02 emissions have and how flying closer to the stratosphere causes these gases to increase global warming at a faster rate, you realise lots of people there were just bonkers. Its a shame campaigns like these get populated by these nutters as its gonna put people off joining in.



I know the sort of thing you mean. Sometimes people are so desperate for support that they won't do anything to remove anyone from a site even if that person is fucking up the ethos of the place to the point where nobody else would want to get involved. 

On a site where I used to live it was mostly quote unquote pagans who would roll up, play terrible music, talk endless shit, smoke everyone else's weed, drink everyone else's booze and do absolutely nothing useful. We eventually found out that many of our local pagans were also stalwarts of the local BNP. Still there wasn't consensus from everyone on site that they had to go, so it fell to me to threaten to personally track them down and break their legs if they showed their faces again.

Sometimes inclusivity means you have to exclude people.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 30, 2013)

abstract1 said:


> Bish showed me this - a quick search throws up this: http://www.salford.gov.uk/childconcern.htm
> 
> I'd wager, given the attitude and style/nature of questions, that was a police officer - it would be pretty unusual for a SW to follow someone around in that kind of setting, asking questions like that.



She says she's from a multi-agency unit. If She was a social worker she would say, 'I'm a social worker' and she would have the appropriate credentials. 

And no, social workers wouldn't follow unknown people down the street for no good reason just because they'd taken their kids to a lawful protest. Nobody else but a copper would act like that, nobody else but a copper would be too ashamed to admit what their actual job is.


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## campanula (Dec 1, 2013)

Of course it isn't a social worker. My daughter is a social worker - they don't rock up to protests with little clipboards, harassing people ffs. They are overworked and exhausted with their own complex and ongoing cases without spending even one iota of time following a perfectly legal protestor around. Even if there had been reports of child neglect or other safeguarding issues, this is not how cases are dealt with.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2013)

I've practised the art of keeping my powder dry in the presence of coppers for many years now, but if I saw one of them trying to intimidate someone by making veiled threats about their kids, all for the sake of getting one more law-abiding citizen on their big database, I'm not sure I'd be able to keep my cool.

The legal observer bloke does brilliantly in that video though. 

'Well unfortunately we have to get to the bottom of it because we've got safeguarding measures that we need to look into.'
'No you don't.'


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 1, 2013)

Reasonable turn out yesterday for the "Mad Frackers Tea Party". Still needs a lot of local promotion for support because it looks like the camp will be there for a good while.

Friday night had 60, mostly very locals, to a local meeting.

On the one hand, there has been some frustration from activists there that there ain't more there. On the other, I think there's plenty of scope / reasonable promise for building it.

Of course it ain't Balcombe. It ain't summer for one thing and it aint getting the publicity from the media.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 9, 2013)




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## ddraig (Dec 9, 2013)

not surprising


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## Bingo (Dec 9, 2013)

Arrested for what? They probably know that won't stand up in court... but why are they allowed to get away with it?


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## ddraig (Dec 9, 2013)

http://frackfreegtrmanchester.org.uk/we-will-not-tolerate-police-brutality-at-peaceful-protest/


> *FFSalford&GtrManc* ‏@FFSGtrM43m
> All bar one of our protectors has been released.. Tim has refused the erroneous bail conditions and will be in court tomorrow. #BartonMoss





> *FFSalford&GtrManc* ‏@FFSGtrM42m
> Arrestees were refused lawyers and phone calls and were told they had to pay. Policetried to pressure them into taking a caution #BartonMoss





> *FFSalford&GtrManc* ‏@FFSGtrM41m
> Come down tomorrow (and every other day) and show @gmpolice we will not tolerate their dirty tactics. http://frackfreegtrmanchester.org.uk/we-will-not-tolerate-police-brutality-at-peaceful-protest/… #BartonMoss


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## tbtommyb (Dec 9, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> The police are now acting as de facto private security for gas companies. This is where our taxes are going, while state support for clean energy technologies is cut back and contracts for new nuclear power stations are handed to the lowest bidder.




The Hinkley C strike price is £92.50, which is lower than the strike price for almost every renewable source (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...nologies-cfd-contract-terms-and-strike-prices).


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## ddraig (Dec 10, 2013)

apparently the one who went to court got unconditional bail and on that twitter account they are saying that someone else got taken from their home at 5.30am today


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## free spirit (Dec 10, 2013)

tbtommyb said:


> The Hinkley C strike price is £92.50, which is lower than the strike price for almost every renewable source (https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...nologies-cfd-contract-terms-and-strike-prices).


yeah, but only because DECC have announced a solar strike price for 2018-19 that's actually higher than the solar trade association had said was needed.

If they'd used the STA price then solar would have been cheaper than nuclear by 2018.

AFAIK this is the only time the government has ever given a higher rate of support than the industry trade body had requested. So bear this in mind when DECC release their figures showing nuclear having a lower strike price than renewables.


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## tbtommyb (Dec 12, 2013)

free spirit said:


> yeah, but only because DECC have announced a solar strike price for 2018-19 that's actually higher than the solar trade association had said was needed.
> 
> If they'd used the STA price then solar would have been cheaper than nuclear by 2018.
> 
> AFAIK this is the only time the government has ever given a higher rate of support than the industry trade body had requested. So bear this in mind when DECC release their figures showing nuclear having a lower strike price than renewables.



Not really, almost all of them have strike prices above Hinkley C.


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## Bingo (Dec 12, 2013)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-143899/Another-quake-rocks-Manchester.html


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 13, 2013)

Bingo said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-143899/Another-quake-rocks-Manchester.html






> *Another quake rocks Manchester*
> Manchester was shaken by another small earthquake today, the British Geological Survey said.
> 
> A tremor measuring 2.9 on the Richter scale was felt in areas of north Manchester at 4.39am, said assistant seismologist Julian Bukits.
> ...



Kin ell!


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## gentlegreen (Dec 13, 2013)

Non-destructive and presumably these would have happened eventually anyway if it's a fault shifting ?
Has it actually been confirmed to be have been triggered by a fracking operation ?


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## Bingo (Dec 13, 2013)

No confirmation, may have been unrelated.... but the fact that its on a fault line anyway doesn't fill me with confidence there won't be any more


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## SikhWarrioR (Dec 13, 2013)

Why waste the money and tech expertise on fracking when you could put it into tidal or wave which is cleaner ans well last infinately longer


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## Tankus (Dec 13, 2013)

gentlegreen said:


> Non-destructive and presumably these would have happened eventually anyway if it's a fault shifting ?
> Has it actually been confirmed to be have been triggered by a fracking operation ?


The pipe strings are very vulnerable, instant surface conto duit with little containment ,straight through the capping impermeable's and higher aquifers.

This seriously matters long after commercial extraction of gas has completed and the well capped.   The industrial effluent pumped down is still highly mobile and under pressure....50%  of pipe casing's integrity are expected to fail after 30 years....

Google Texas earthquakes ..........plenty to read.


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## Bingo (Dec 13, 2013)

I guess they already have the drilling expertise and technology...


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## Bingo (Dec 13, 2013)

More police brutality on the site today :  "pregnant woman violently arrested, elderly gentleman with a broken leg."


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 13, 2013)

Update on today's arrests from local independent media source.

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2071


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2013)

Bingo said:


> More police brutality on the site today :  "pregnant woman violently arrested, elderly gentleman with a broken leg."


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## Mr.Bishie (Dec 13, 2013)

Lets hope he sues the the despicable cunts.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Lets hope he sues the the despicable cunts.



The lawful arrest cases alone must be piling up, or they will be once the CPS realise the plods've got nothing on anyone and start dropping charges.

Less chance of individual officers facing criminal charges for their actions sadly, and zero chance of their superiors getting in any kind of trouble.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 13, 2013)

Number 3 on the Green Party list for the Euros got nicked.


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## SikhWarrioR (Dec 14, 2013)

Bingo said:


> More police brutality on the site today :  "pregnant woman violently arrested, elderly gentleman with a broken leg."




So 30 years after the miners strike plod still hasnt changed their ways then why am I no longer surprised anyone when it comes to plod


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## ddraig (Dec 16, 2013)

wind turbine blade dumped at drilling site





https://twitter.com/guardianeco/status/412520334093332480


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 16, 2013)

_Day 20 (Mon 16th Dec) Of Community Fracking Blockade In Barton Moss


*The gate to IGas’s fortified fracking site at Barton Moss, Salford is blocked (Click To Enlage)*


Twentith day of the community blockade of IGas’s site at Barton Moss, has seen Santa come early to the North West. A 1.5 tonne wind-turbine blade has been delivered to IGas. The entrance to the Barton Moss site is now completely blocked by the blade._

http://frack-off.org.uk/barton-moss-latest-news/


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2013)

Ha, superb. IIRC there were plans to use this same wind turbine blade at Balcombe earlier in the year, nice to see it's finally made an appearance


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 16, 2013)

Apparently the turbine blade has now disappeared. The police, council and protestors are all denying that they removed it. I can only assume the Salford area has some very enterprising and very strong scrappers.


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2013)

And today some mad bastards blocked off the gate to the site with a coach and locked themselves to it.

Pictures here: http://www.flickr.com/photos/109945054@N07/sets/72157638787775014/


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## ddraig (Dec 20, 2013)

http://www.schnews.org.uk/stories/Psychotic-Fracturing-In-Barton-Moss/


> *Psychotic Fracturing In Barton Moss?*
> * Community Blockade At Fracking Site*
> 
> Another fracking site, another blockade. At Balcombe this summer thousands of people turned out over two months to defend Sussex from Cuadrilla’s fracking threat. The policing costs alone are said to have been close to £4 million, and that was to drill a well that might have produced £8 million of oil, if it was a production well. Such efforts are clearly not economically sustainable over the long term. The only question is whether the anti-frackers can keep up the pressure. EnterBarton Moss. Winter, the outskirts of Manchester, little media interest and more police violence. If a blockade can be made to work here, Balcombe will start to look like the fracking Twyford Down (_that was the first of many road protest sites in the 90s, for our younger readers)._


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## thriller (Dec 20, 2013)

let em get om with it. the less we become dependent on russian gas or arab oil the better. have nowt against frack.


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## Mr.Bishie (Dec 21, 2013)

thriller said:


> let em get om with it. the less we become dependent on russian gas or arab oil the better. have nowt against frack.



0/10


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Dec 21, 2013)

A piece about the spin-spivs is still winning over far too many people http://stevedrant.wordpress.com/2013/08/22/fracking-a-travesty-of-debate-and-democracy/


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## Bingo (Dec 21, 2013)

Its come out that Salford council have significant financial investments with iGas, the fracking company here.... dodgy as fuck, no wonder they're sending so many cops down, shameful.


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## ChrisD (Dec 21, 2013)

Bingo said:


> Its come out that Salford council have significant financial investments with iGas, the fracking company here.... dodgy as fuck, no wonder they're sending so many cops down, shameful.




Doesn't suprise me ..but have you got a source for that?


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## free spirit (Dec 21, 2013)

thriller said:


> let em get om with it. the less we become dependent on russian gas or arab oil the better. have nowt against frack.


we're in no way dependent upon Russian gas, and the fact that you make that point should disqualify you from commenting further IMO.


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## Bingo (Dec 21, 2013)

Salford and Trafford councils are investing in fracking company IGas Energy.

Research conducted by Frack Free Greater Manchester has found Salford and Trafford Councils to be investing in fracking company IGas via Greater Manchester Pension Fund. 

Both Councils have granted IGas planning permission to conduct exploratory drilling: http://frack-off.org.uk/extreme-energy-fullscreen/...

IGas lists Henderson Global Investors (HGI), a subsidiary of Henderson Group, as one of their five major investors: http://www.igasplc.com/investors/shareholder-information/major-shareholders

Greater Manchester Pension Fund (GMPF) holds shares worth £millions in Henderson Group (HG):

* http://www.gmpf.org.uk/pdf/investments_infrastructure%20commitments_31032013.pdf 
* http://www.gmpf.org.uk/pdf/investments_property_pooled_vehicles_31032013.pdf
* http://www.gmpf.org.uk/pdf/investments_year_end_holdings_2013.pdf


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## teqniq (Jan 3, 2014)

> Young girl dictates pace up Barton Moss Road slowing police and lorries to a crawl. Unlike other days and to their credit, members of Greater Manchester Police do not push, kick or assault the peaceful protesters. This slow walk on the 30th December 2013 took a record 3 hours!


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 4, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Salford and Trafford councils are investing in fracking company IGas Energy.
> 
> Research conducted by Frack Free Greater Manchester has found Salford and Trafford Councils to be investing in fracking company IGas via Greater Manchester Pension Fund.
> 
> ...



And I'm sure none of this provides any motivation for the council to encourage the police to act like wankers in dealing with these protests.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2014)

Today's update: the plod have turned up with a search warrant and gone through everyone's tents, ostensibly looking for flares after highly dubious reports of flares being fired at the plodcopter. No flares were found but there was evidence of criminal damage and shitcuntery with intent, specifically police officers covering people's clothes and bedding in mud and water.


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## Bingo (Jan 6, 2014)

Its like something a 12 year old bully would do


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 6, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Its like something a 12 year old bully would do



12 year old bullies aren't paid for by the taxpayer though.

Clearly they're just trying to bully people into leaving. They've been continually arresting people and bailing them with conditions to stay clear of the protests for the same reason. At least one arrestee refused to sign his bail paperwork at the police station and was kept in the cells until court the next day, where he was released on unconditional bail


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## 8ball (Jan 6, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> 12 year old bullies aren't paid for by the taxpayer though.
> 
> Clearly they're just trying to bully people into leaving...


 
Too fucking stupid to think about where their overtime is coming from.


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## Treacle Toes (Jan 6, 2014)

http://www.demotix.com/news/3620458...-attendance-barton-moss-salford#media-3620514


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## Treacle Toes (Jan 7, 2014)

> *Barton Moss Community Protection Camp *
> 5 hours ago via Mobile
> 5 confirmed arrests today. The 3 amazing women locked on in arm tubes on the road delayed the convoy for 4 whole hours! The police accused us of setting a flare off at a police helicopter on Saturday night and used that to obtain a warrant to raid our tents and caravans. As far as we are aware of on camp, no such flare was used. This appears to be an entire fabrication on the part of the GMP to intimidate and harass us. It didn't work. We are stronger than ever with plenty media coverage and a flood of donations brought to camp today from our wonderful supporters. Lots of love and many thanks from camp




Those women ^^^

http://bambuser.com/v/4245705?fb_action_ids=10203006585304872&fb_action_types=og.likes&fb_source=other_multiline&action_object_map=[702816443069885]&action_type_map=["og.likes"]&action_ref_map=[]

_*Barton Moss protestors: no one in this camp would endanger anyone's life*_

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/update/2014-01-06/barton-moss-protestors-no-one-in-this-camp-would-endanger-anyones-life/


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## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

Is there anything decently researched about that would convince someone of a scientific persuasion that fracking is necessarily a bad thing?


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## free spirit (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> Is there anything decently researched about that would convince someone of a scientific persuasion that fracking is necessarily a bad thing?


try the parliamentary report on the subject. IIRC it concluded that it could be relatively safe if strict conditions were applied and strictly enforced by a regulator with teeth.

Apparently the government took that to mean it's safe, unfortunately they have a vastly inflated sense of the competence of the environment agency and HSE to act as such an enforcement body. They were bad enough 10 years ago when it eventually got shown that the environment agency had been complicit in allowing Newcastle Council to operate Byker incinerator illegally, and dump waste flyash on allotment footpaths for years, and that was before the coalition had destroyed both agencies competence even further with huge numbers of job cuts.


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## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

free spirit said:


> try the parliamentary report on the subject. IIRC it concluded that it could be relatively safe if strict conditions were applied and strictly enforced by a regulator with teeth.


 
That sounds a bit more nuanced than most of what I've heard, though I hear you on regulators being useless.
Having gas appliances in our homes would be fucking lethal if done badly enough, and from what little I understand fracking has been around a long time and the main reason it has got to being done here now is that the price of gas has risen enough to make it worthwhile despite the high regulatory costs in this country.


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## free spirit (Jan 7, 2014)

Fracking's been around for ages, but not really used until horizontal drilling technology was available to allow them to drill down, then drill horizontally and frack for thousands of yards around the fracking site.

One of the key issues is when they drill through water sources. They're then relying on concrete casements to prevent the high pressure fracking fluids from leaking into the water sources.

Similar sorts of casements that failed in the deep water horizon oil disaster in the Gulf of Mexico.

Most of the time they'll get it right, but there's bound to be a failure rate probably at best be in the 1-2% range, and when there are several thousand wells planned, this would result in dozens of failures, and dozens of water sources being polluted.

Then there's the likelihood that when the fracture the rock, that there will be other cracks out of which the gas will escape and end up being absorbed into groundwater.


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## laptop (Jan 7, 2014)

free spirit said:


> Then there's the likelihood that when the fracture the rock, that there will be other cracks out of which the gas will escape and end up being absorbed into groundwater.



Methane being harmless in the absence of a flame, that's not the worry.

Drilling mud in groundwater, yes.

More to the point, though: Methane is a massive greenhouse gas. From memory, if there's 5% gas leakage to the air, then fracking is as bad for climate change as is coal-burning. And _some_ reports say there's at least that.


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## free spirit (Jan 7, 2014)

laptop said:


> Methane being harmless in the absence of a flame, that's not the worry.


Well sort of, it'd explain the youtube videos of people lighting their tap water... though tbf this can happen naturally as well, and would be more likely to in an area with significant methane in the rocks below the ground water.



laptop said:


> Drilling mud in groundwater, yes.
> 
> More to the point, though: Methane is a massive greenhouse gas. From memory, if there's 5% gas leakage to the air, then fracking is as bad for climate change as is coal-burning. And _some_ reports say there's at least that.


yep... and one of the routes it could escape would be dissolved in the ground water.

When that water gets pumped to the surface, and heated it would release methane if it were concentrated enough.


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## Tankus (Jan 7, 2014)

This is what scares me .......note ...its not about fracking , but injection waste disposal ,  but the implications are obvious, Particularly when there is a 50% well casement failure rate after 30 years

Actual casement failure on startup is just under 7 % (industry expectation)
8 to 20 strings per pad ....... Most pads are going to have a contaiment failure at some point .It doesn't have to reach the surface.


http://www.propublica.org/article/injection-wells-the-poison-beneath-us/single#republish reprinted in the scientific american .....

Edit ....its worth a read......but just a statement of the obvious


> "There is no certainty at all in any of this, and whoever tells you the opposite is not telling you the truth," said Stefan Finsterle, a leading hydrogeologist at Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory who specializes in understanding the properties of rock layers and modeling how fluid flows through them. "You have changed the system with pressure and temperature and fracturing, so you don't know how it will behave."


Just to follow the logic through about what the pro fracking camp say about it being  safe ....
Let's go the whole hog
http://www.newser.com/story/179048/a-new-nuclear-waste-solution-use-it-for-fracking.html

'kin amazements


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## ddraig (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> That sounds a bit more nuanced than most of what I've heard, though I hear you on regulators being useless.
> Having gas appliances in our homes would be fucking lethal if done badly enough, and from what little I understand fracking has been around a long time and the main reason it has got to being done here now is that the price of gas has risen enough to make it worthwhile despite the high regulatory costs in this country.


however much gas they get from fracking, it will not bring down energy prices

and do you eat GM food?


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## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

ddraig said:


> however much gas they get from fracking, it will not bring down energy prices


 
I never said it would, curious though that assertion is. 



ddraig said:


> and do you eat GM food?


 
Is that produced by fracking too?


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## ddraig (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> I never said it would, curious though that assertion is.
> 
> 
> 
> Is that produced by fracking too?


i never said you said it would, just the argument being used by some. why is it a curious assertion?

don't be silly, do you eat GM food and trust what you are told by the industry etc?


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## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

ddraig said:


> i never said you said it would, just the argument being used by some. why is it a curious assertion?


 
Just odd to reply to my post by responding to something I didn't say.  Also, if there was a truly massive amount of gas down there it would bring down energy prices, but with the likely amount of actual gas down there and the way energy companies operate as cartels I don't think it's necessarily going to happen here.  My real point, though, was that fracking has been about for a long time but it wasn't worth doing here until the gas price rose enough to offset regulatory, geographical and technical constraints.



ddraig said:


> don't be silly, do you eat GM food and trust what you are told by the industry etc?


 
Given I don't check everything for GM content it's very likely I eat some of it, though the main places I buy food at do not stock it.
I have no idea what the fracking industry's position on GM food is, though - they seem mostly obsessed with fracking in my experience.  Weirdoes.


----------



## laptop (Jan 7, 2014)

free spirit said:


> Well sort of, it'd explain the youtube videos of people lighting their tap water... though tbf this can happen naturally as well, and would be more likely to in an area with significant methane in the rocks below the ground water.



As I understand it, the flammable tap water is due to methane in coal beds well above the strata being fracked. In Pennsylvania, at least.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

laptop said:


> As I understand it, the flammable tap water is due to methane in coal beds well above the strata being fracked. In Pennsylvania, at least.



The people you see lighting their water in the film Gaslands all had their own boreholes/wells drawing water from the aquifer that's basically on top of the gas field. Not many people in Greater Manchester have wells in their back gardens, I expect most of their water comes from reservoirs in Derbyshire and Yorkshire that probably wouldn't be affected by fracking in Salford. 

Of course I wouldn't be surprised if someone wanted to start fracking in an area that's near major reservoirs, providing a unique opportunity to poison the water supply of hundreds of thousands of people all at once. There are _lots _of sites in the UK currently being considered for exploratory drilling preliminary to gas fracking. I've seen maps with all these sites marked, there are few places in the country that _aren't _under threat.

 Once the industry gets properly up and running actions like those at Balcombe and Barton Moss will no longer be possible because there will simply be too many sites and not enough protestors.


----------



## ChrisD (Jan 7, 2014)

I think fracking is like burning your furniture and then floorboards and joists to keep warm.  It's doable but neither 100% safe nor sustainable for long term energy needs.


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## free spirit (Jan 7, 2014)

laptop said:


> As I understand it, the flammable tap water is due to methane in coal beds well above the strata being fracked. In Pennsylvania, at least.


possibly, tbh I've not investigated it that much.

What I would say though is that I would generally tend to trust those who're affected enough to know whether this is a new phenomenon for their water supply or not. If they're saying it's new, then I'd think it'd be down to the frackers to prove otherwise, and I'm not aware that they've really done this - it should be simply enough to do by measuring the methane concentration in the water at regular intervals and seeing if it's increasing or not.


----------



## 8ball (Jan 7, 2014)

ChrisD said:


> I think fracking is like burning your furniture and then floorboards and joists to keep warm.  It's doable but neither 100% safe nor sustainable for long term energy needs.


 
There ain't no 'long term' about it tbf.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2014)

8ball said:


> There ain't no 'long term' about it tbf.



Indeed. In the long term we need water supplies which aren't contaminated with lethal organic toxins, that doesn't seem to trouble them either.


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## Tankus (Jan 8, 2014)

Well ...if the implications of this hasn't blown your mind

http://www.propublica.org/article/injection-wells-the-poison-beneath-us/single#republish

This will





Its done in aquifers  which aren't necessarily confined .
it uses the same haliburton exemptions from the clean water act as fracking
http://www.propublica.org/article/o...crifice-tomorrows-water-to-mine-uranium-today

But rather than frack the rocks, it relies on hydrostaic flow within an aquifer.....WTF !

Just what is wrong with the Americans   that live in the mid  west ?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 8, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Just what is wrong with the Americans that live in the mid  west ?



Cancers, neuropathy, lung diseases, migraines...

If you mean why did they allow these processes to becomme so widespread, I seriously doubt anyone ever bothered to ask them. Or if they did they wouldn't have been told what was actually involved and what the risks were.

What the fuck is wrong with the American _government_, now there's a valid question.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2014)

One protestor arrested under the terrorism act this morning. His offence appears to have been using the word 'bullshit' to describe police harassment of an 82 year old woman.


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## 8ball (Jan 9, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> One protestor arrested under the terrorism act this morning. His offence appears to have been using the word 'bullshit' to describe police harassment of an 82 year old woman.


 
Assault on a police officer with an offensive word?

Good job it wasn't the c-word - would probably merit an extrajudicial execution.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 9, 2014)

8ball said:


> Assault on a police officer with an offensive word?



Not really terrorism though is it?

And IIRC a senior judge recently stated that bad words spoken in the vicinity of coppers do not constitute assault, and that if you can't stomach a bit of bad language you shouldn't be a copper.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 12, 2014)

Superb turnout at the solidarity day. Certainly 600, possibly more. 

BBC, who have a major base just down the road said 250-300. There is footage of the march from Salford Reds Rugby League Stadium to the camp that they could have just paid someone to count. They are a disgrace to journalism. 

As for the "flare" incident. No one has produced any evidence it happened, although the fucknuts lamestream media tended to shift from it being "alleged" to acting like it had happened in the space of a couple of paras.

Camp did have fireworks on New Years Eve. The raid was on the first Monday am after that. My guess is that plod seeing fireworks gave them an idea for a stonecold lie, but they sat on it till they had the numbers without having to resort to overtime etc.

I think there's getting on for 50 arrests in total now, obviously Obstruction Of The Highway is far and away the main thing. Main defence to this is that it's actually private road. No full cases yet, initial hearings still trundling through.


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## sim667 (Jan 13, 2014)

Then there's this video from near fracking sites in north dakota.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 14, 2014)

Re "Flaregate" Set the Giggle-o-meter to 11 for this one. 

http://frackfreegtrmanchester.org.uk/greater-manchesters-finest-fall-for-obvious-spoof-on-indymedia/


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 17, 2014)

2 nicked on Wednesday for "threats to kill"

At the current trajectory of nonsense, how long before protecters are accused of launching bio chemical warfare and a plot to invade Mars?


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## Bingo (Jan 17, 2014)

apparently according to one guy there's a think-tank who sit around and try to work out all these crazy ideas, plus I suppose all the bullshit PR that goes with it.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 17, 2014)

There's a laywer working on it who boasts of a reputation in clearing the path for corpos from protests, she's thought to have been on sight and not a flattering specimen to our species.

This is an ITV report on some recent arrests, not the worst reportage I've seen at all to be fair.

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/story/2014-01-14/fracking-protest-arrests/


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## Bingo (Jan 17, 2014)

I wonder if she was the one who came up with the flare story...


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## Tankus (Jan 17, 2014)

I see the police were still pushing the flare issue in the interview though.


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## Bingo (Jan 17, 2014)

Of course, with the mainstream media regurgitating the fabricated story as truth, what have they got to lose?


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## teqniq (Jan 18, 2014)

Whilst the government tries to shamelessly bribe local authorities with promises of all the tax from fracking operations - probably not too difficult a prospect all things considered, if you vote on the poll in the link, you will discover - at least when I voted that 95% of people voting are against fracking.

Prime Minister promises financial boost for 'fracking' councils


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 18, 2014)

It's always 'protestors clashed with police' isn't it? No matter what actually happened, we get the same phrase on the telly and in all the papers. Why, even when confronted with conclusive video evidence that this is what occurred, does nobody ever use the phrase, 'police attacked protestors'?

That phrase is hardly ever used in any other context. No other victims of violence are dismissed as having deserved their fate by virtue of their having 'clashed' with their attacker. These are not random scuffles, they are organised and planned acts of violence perpetrated exclusively by one group, the police. There is no reciprocity involved here, even raising a hand to defend yourself or someone else against these brutes counts as assault on a police officer, but there is no police force you can call to come and arrest policmen who has assaulted you, and no court that will find him guilty.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 18, 2014)

Tankus said:


> I see the police were still pushing the flare issue in the interview though.



They were even pushing the issue the day _before _the alleged incident, which shows an admirable degree of foresight.

The Barton Moss protest camp is perched right on the edge of a busy airfield. Any genuine report of dangerous projectiles being fired at aircraft there would have brought anti-terrorism police down on the site like the wrath of god, instead they opted to roll up a day and a half later with the same officers who had been turning up at the site every day and making a nuisance of themselves for weeks already.


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## Bingo (Jan 19, 2014)

Its mental isn't it the amount of lies, greed and general nastiness


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 19, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Its mental isn't it the amount of lies, greed and general nastiness



Yes, and at Barton Moss lots of people who have never seen the true colours of the police force before are experiencing some serious revelations. As the police try and bully people into leaving the camp with their (doubtless government-sanctioned) disregard for both the law and basic human decency all they succeed in doing is creating more support for the anti-fracking campaign. 

I'm very impressed by the people of Salford, they are not inclined to take any shit from anyone and all the bullshit the police can dish out does nothing but strengthen their resolve. Every time someone is given police bail conditions to stay away from the camp they go straight back there, find the nearest copper and demand to be arrested for breaching bail, whereupon they are taken to court and the magistrates release them on unconditional bail with a warning to the police to stop wasting the court's time with spurious arrests and charges. All this is because the police got sick of people refusing to sign their bail forms and insisting on remaining in custody until they could go in front of a magistrate, and now apparently they're refusing to let arrestees refuse bail.

 A common jibe aimed at the police concerns the idea that the settlements for unlawful arrest cases from Barton Moss protestors will come straight out of the GMP pension fund. Sadly this is almost certainly not true, and ordinary ratepayers will have to subsidise the systematic illegality of the police, all of which is being done for the sake of a private corporate entity


----------



## Bingo (Jan 20, 2014)

This video from today just ridiculous, assaulting a disabled legal observer for reporting a crime.... They appear to be completely above the law! http://bambuser.com/v/4284486


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 20, 2014)

Fucking scum cunt pigs


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 20, 2014)

repeat of Bingo's, but now available in Youtube with blurb:



Please get this viral - the corporate loving thuggery of Greater Manchester Police. 

apparent violent arrested while live streaming, asking the Chief Inspector and several other officers to report lack of proper license plating on one of the trucks leaving site - Fortunately he was livestreaming and the sound and some of the visual stayed on. You can hear him screaming as they bundle him and @11.17 it looks as though his face is bleeding badly. He's talking again afterwards about them kicking his legs (one of which was already injured) from under him.


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## Bingo (Jan 20, 2014)

He's in hospital apparently


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 20, 2014)

Hope he sues them into a deep dark black hole.


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## Treacle Toes (Jan 21, 2014)

This is Livestreamer Kris 3 hours ago:


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## ChrisD (Jan 21, 2014)

Stuff like that makes me want to put aside family responsibilities and head straight up there...

 I'll write a letter instead.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

In regards to number plates, the more worrying thing is the warning signs on the tankers. You see two kinds of tankers going to and from the iGas site at Barton Moss, those with warning signs that read 'non hazardous' and those with all warning signs removed.

I'm not entirely au fait with the law in this case but I would think it would be mandatory to have details of a tanker's contents clearly visible to the emergency services in the event of a spill or other accident. The tankers at Barton Moss have no such information on them, although they all have plates where warning signs would normally be mounted.

Naturally our attempts to draw the attention of the police to these discerpancies fell on deaf ears, just like when we asked about the illegal razor wire protecting the site, the private security guards failing to display SIA licenses, vehicles breaking the weight limit on the access road etc etc etc. All this stuff is on film, coppers refusing to even take note of crimes being comitted.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2014)

Excellent article by Salford Star, worth trying to get viral and The Star deserve all the new followers that can be mustered anyhow.

www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2114


-----

Separately, make of this what thou wilt:

Greater Manchester Police have just issued the following statement: "Greater Manchester Police is aware of the footage relating to yesterday's arrest and this has now been passed to GMP's Professional Standards Branch. Officers are also looking into allegations that a lorry attending the site had an unlawful number plate. Enquiries are ongoing."


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2014)

Ian R Crane writes:

Whilst the iGas Private Army are brutalising Peaceful Protectors, the personal wealth of Andrew Austen (iGas CEO) has increased by £5.1million in the past 10 days as a direct result of Total's entry into the UK Shale/CBM arena and Cameron's attempt to bribe local authorities to ignore the will of their electorate and embrace the Fracking abomination!


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## Tankus (Jan 21, 2014)

According to the telegraph there maybe only 1 or 2 fracked wells this year, and just a few more in the next  (as opposed to the possible 40 odd initially planned). Its occurred to some marginal Tories that stirinrg up local dissent may not be a good idea ahead of the 2015 election's.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Separately, make of this what thou wilt:
> 
> Greater Manchester Police have just issued the following statement: "Greater Manchester Police is aware of the footage relating to yesterday's arrest and this has now been passed to GMP's Professional Standards Branch. Officers are also looking into allegations that a lorry attending the site had an unlawful number plate. Enquiries are ongoing."



I expect they were aware at the time that Kris was filming but not that he was streaming the footage live. Most likely they thought they'd be able to quietly remove any footage of their own misconduct once they had him in the cells. Coincidentally another member of the camp who had been live-streaming footage throughout the protests, including more incidents of unprovoked plod violence, was arrested a few days ago on spurious charges.


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## spacemonkey (Jan 21, 2014)

Fracking is absolutely mental, but so is our energy consumption. 

We used approximately *330TWh's* of gas in the domestic sector last year. That's 25 million households using 16,000kWh's each. 

I've not seen any remotely feasible strategies for providing this energy in a low carbon, sustainable way. 

Anyone have an answer? Protesting fracking is fine, but we also need to have solutions...


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

Tankus said:


> According to the telegraph there maybe only 1 or 2 fracked wells this year, and just a few more in the next  (as opposed to the possible 40 odd initially planned). Its occurred to some marginal Tories that stirinrg up local dissent may not be a good idea ahead of the 2015 election's.



Given the numbers of police at Barton Moss alone, the UK simply doesn't have enough coppers for more than a handful of fracking sites. From the absence of properly certified private security at Barton Moss (the goons were previously displaying both licenses and the name of their security firm as required by law, now they're doing neither) it looks like the private sector wants nothing to do with fracking. 

Greater Manchester police's Tactical Aid Unit (affectionately known as Thugs Are Us) is likely to be disbanded soon for reasons of cost and unpopularity. Why the specialist skull-cracking unit should have a poor reputation among the people of Manchester is anyone's guess. They do seem to be an unusually angry and disconsolate bunch.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Greater Manchester police's Tactical Aid Unit (affectionately known as Thugs Are Us) is likely to be disbanded soon for reasons of cost and unpopularity.




Not being sarky, but what's your basis for saying that? Sounds intruiging.


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## SikhWarrioR (Jan 21, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Excellent article by Salford Star, worth trying to get viral and The Star deserve all the new followers that can be mustered anyhow.
> 
> www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2114
> 
> ...




Officers are also looking into allegations that a lorry attending the site had an unlawful number plate. Enquiries are ongoing.

You watch the plod move if you or Me drove our cars, motorcycles,vans with unlawful or dirty/obscured numberplates a lot quicker than if it was a lorry belonging to a fracker


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

spacemonkey said:


> Fracking is absolutely mental, but so is our energy consumption.
> 
> We used approximately *330TWh's* of gas in the domestic sector last year. That's 25 million households using 16,000kWh's each.
> 
> ...



Very good point. Even eco-nuts are often wary of mentioning reduced energy consumption, which realistically is what we'll need to achieve if we want to move towards renewable sources of energy. That doesn't have to mean that everyone has to shiver in the dark for the rest of their days, but it does require both a major rethink of infrastructure, planning, construction etc of the sort that will never happen while the private sector has those things completely sewn up. 

Just look at the ongoing fuss about flood prevention for new housing developments. The construction industry is against investing in proper safeguards and so they're lobbying to change the rules. Of course it's a lot cheaper in the long run to design developments to be flood resistant than to build vast concrete walls to protect them after they've already been flooded, but the private sector doesn't do long term thinking so it probably won't happen.

There are some fantastic energy-saving technologies being created for homes these days, but often these need to be designed into a building from the start. There's no financial incentive for developers to do this, so they won't.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Not being sarky, but what's your basis for saying that? Sounds intruiging.



A TAU copper told me. It sometimes pays to pretend to be nice to these people.


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## Tankus (Jan 21, 2014)

A cheaper build than Than 3 nucs at a guess
Island channel could power about half of Scotland, studies show


> Renewable tidal energy sufficient to power about half of Scotland could be harnessed from a single stretch of water off the north coast of the country, engineers say.
> Researchers have completed the most detailed study yet of how much tidal power could be generated by turbines placed in the Pentland Firth, between mainland Scotland and Orkney, and estimate 1.9 gigawatts (GW) could be available.


Everything is in place. Oil industry used to building deep water rigs ,with some of the best and most experienced engineers in  the world .World leading prime site to put it in .Dependable power that can be scheduled....… Amazed that we haven't started years ago


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## Tankus (Jan 21, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I expect they were aware at the time that Kris was filming but not that he was streaming the footage live. Most likely they thought they'd be able to quietly remove any footage of their own misconduct once they had him in the cells. Coincidentally another member of the camp who had been live-streaming footage throughout the protests, including more incidents of unprovoked plod violence, was arrested a few days ago on spurious charges.


Phone cell blocking next perhaps ?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 21, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Phone cell blocking next perhaps ?



Not sure on the feasibility of that, they might have to switch off coverage to a whole area which would be quite likely to piss off the already pissed off locals even more. And there are plenty of people filming stuff on ordinary cameras and uploading the footage later on, not to mention TV and newspaper crews filming for everyone from Al Jazeera to the Australian Broadcasting Corporation 

But still I reckon GMP are giving a lot more thought to how to stop people filming them being cunts that they are to the prospect of maybe not being cunts in the first place.


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## Tankus (Jan 21, 2014)

Local area jammers   , turning off masts would probably need a lot paperwork ?




Don't the military use them to block mobile phone bomb triggers ?...dunno


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 22, 2014)

The attack discussed hitherto has made The Graun.

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/jan/21/police-accused-brutality-anti-fracking-protester


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## friedaweed (Jan 22, 2014)

Why was he calling the inspector "Del Boy" ?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 22, 2014)

Local MP now asking questions.

http://salfordonline.com/localnews_...ng_pictures_emerge_of_barton_moss_arrest.html


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## ddraig (Jan 22, 2014)

but they are lying about him obstructing them/the highway


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 22, 2014)

ddraig said:


> but they are lying about him obstructing them/the highway



Yes they are. Not that obstructing a highway is any grounds for kicking the shit out of someone like that.

Most arrests at the site have been for obstruction of a highway, despite the fact nobody knows if the road where the protests are taking place is a highway or not. Barton Moss lane is a private access road and a public footpath (despite the plod attempting to retrocon this by stealing the public footpath signs ) so it's not at all clear that arresting people for obstructing Barton Moss lane is lawful. 

Plenty of lawyers and magistrates are on record stating that what protestors are being accused of is not a crime. The CPS is not currently allowing anyone to enter pleas when they've been charged with obstruction at Barton Moss. Magistrates are throwing out all the police bail conditions for arestees. There looks to be a very good chance that dozens of arrests will be found to be unlawful and, on top of the lawsuits against the police for brutality, lots of people will be claiming compensation.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 22, 2014)

They will assault you regardless.

Last time I was up there I was repeatedly shoved as I tied my laces (genuinelly, not piss-taking) by the side of the road. A fraction of that the other way would have me on a charge. They enjoy the thuggery, that's why they are in that role. It's their families at home I feel more sorry for, some of them must be right domestic tyrants.


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## spacemonkey (Jan 23, 2014)

Tankus said:


> A cheaper build than Than 3 nucs at a guess
> Island channel could power about half of Scotland, studies show
> 
> Everything is in place. Oil industry used to building deep water rigs ,with some of the best and most experienced engineers in  the world .World leading prime site to put it in .Dependable power that can be scheduled....… Amazed that we haven't started years ago



They're great, and I would love to see tidal being deployed offshore in huge amounts. But 1.9GW would generate about 14TWhr's a year. As I mentioned earlier we use 320TWh's just on home heating. And that's gas, not electricity.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2014)

Vanessa from Barton Moss owns Peter Lilley:

http://www.channel4.com/news/fracking-barton-moss-peter-lilley-vanessa-vine-manchester


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## teqniq (Jan 26, 2014)

The C4 bloke whose name eludes me claims toward the end of that interview that they are unaware of recent reports of police violence towards protestors. Meanwhile on Bambuser


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2014)

teqniq said:


> The C4 bloke whose name eludes me claims toward the end of that interview that they are unaware of recent reports of police violence towards protestors. Meanwhile on Bambuser



I know for a fact that footage of unprovoked police violence at Barton Moss was passed on to channel 4 news at least ten days ago. And they've had their own crews at the site filming, so clearly they're aware of the situation.

Last I heard the protestors were refusing to talk to the BBC on account of the shitness of their previous coverage.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2014)

It's fucking rubbish how they cram these debates into such brief slots and completely let politicians or whoever off the hook with regards to actually providing evidence for what they've said, as Lilley was so demonstrably unable to do in that video.

 Why aren't they at least being interviewed by someone who has done some fucking homework and knows that there have not been 200 fracked gas wells in the UK 'without anyone noticing' and that in the US the process has indeed taken a massive toll on public health? This information is in the public domain, there's no point having a debate about it if you're not going to actually tell people the facts. 

This sort of thing is everywhere. IDS says there are half a million people on disability benefits who can juggle chainsaws while standing on one leg, nobody bothers to ask for any evidence. Privatisation makes services cheaper and more efficient, they always tell us. OK, present one case study from anywhere in the world that demonstrates this fact then. Because most people can give you half a dozen examples of the exact opposite happening from the UK alone without even really thinking about it.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2014)

Another thing about Channel 4 news and Barton Moss in particular. A couple of weeks ago a lad from the protest camp was whisked off to C4's studios to have a debate with the environment minister, or the energy minister perhaps, some publically funded fracking lobbyist anyway. Our man was told he'd be having a debate with the minister bloke, so he spent ages preparing for that.

Five minutes before air time, he was told that there wasn't gonna be a debate because the government bloke didn't want one. That was that apparently. Our man got a chance to say his piece, even though he didn't have a piece because they'd moved the goalposts at the last minute, and the tory said some made up bollocks and that was the end of it. Credit to the lad for even going on after being fucked about like that, I'd have just turned on my heels and fucked off if they'd treated me like that.


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## free spirit (Jan 26, 2014)

spacemonkey said:


> They're great, and I would love to see tidal being deployed offshore in huge amounts. But 1.9GW would generate about 14TWhr's a year. As I mentioned earlier we use 320TWh's just on home heating. And that's gas, not electricity.


not really the thread for this, but you could probably knock 50% of that for insulation, then 66% if the heat were to be supplied via heat pumps at a Seasonal efficiency of 3:1, which would bring the electrical requirement for heating to 52.8 TWh per year.

at which point 14 TWh a year starts to look a lot more significant.


----------



## spacemonkey (Jan 27, 2014)

free spirit said:


> not really the thread for this, but you could probably knock 50% of that for insulation, then 66% if the heat were to be supplied via heat pumps at a Seasonal efficiency of 3:1, which would bring the electrical requirement for heating to 52.8 TWh per year.
> 
> at which point 14 TWh a year starts to look a lot more significant.



Oh yeah, it's doable. But that 'knocking off 50%' of heating requirements for 28 million homes would require a herculean effort, I have no idea how we'd ever deliver it. Oh and hundreds of billions of pounds.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 28, 2014)

Latest updates from Ian Crane.

No matter what people think of his other output, he has been a true and dedicated stalwart on this issue, with excellent and detailed updates.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 28, 2014)

Also, short notice but there's a benefit this Saturday at Dulcimer Bar in Chorlton. It's for Frack Free Greater Manchester, but doubtless some funds will get to protectors too. £5/£3 on the door. Featuring Taffboy Gwyrdd doing some as yet undetermined keyboard based stuff. Don't let that put you off. 8pm


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2014)

No police turned up to escort the lorries on to the site yesterday. Given how many coppers there usually are guarding convoys (approximately shitloads) this could be very significant. No sign of any police so far today either.

Greater Manchester police have taken a lot of flak for the sake of iGas, and it's not gonna go away as there are dozens of outstanding court cases which will require them to provide evidence of things that didn't happen, and to explain away vast amounts of evidence of their own misconduct. Then there will be legal actions against the police, lots and lots of them, for wrongful arrest and brutality amongst other things. Maybe the police have decided that they can't afford to do this any more, either in financial terms or in terms of their own reputation.

Without extensive police protection, fracking in this country doesn't stand a chance.


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## teqniq (Jan 31, 2014)

Interesting development, I hope you are right


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2014)

Apparently police have appeared this morning but they're not doing their usual trick of forming a line in front of the convoys to force protestors to move. It's these lines where I saw most of the violence and arbitrary arrests from the police when they failed to keep their powder dry.

e2a: Some people are suggesting that the reduced police presence yesterday was a deliberate ploy to lure protestors into some mass action that would allow them to arrest everyone. Another theory is that the press have been doing an investigation into the police brutality at Barton Moss so they're behaving themselves for once.

Either way, something has got to give. The local people are getting increasingly furious not just with the violence and the constant illegal activities of GMP but with the sheer size of the police presence which they will end up paying for.


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## ddraig (Jan 31, 2014)

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/59765
*WE DEMAND A PUBLIC ENQUIRY INTO THE POLICING OF BARTON MOSS CAMP SALFORD*


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2014)

One of the most shameful false arrests I've ever seen.



Footage recovered from the 14th of January. From about 1 minute on you can see a copper inventing a crime of drink driving so as to arrest man for refusing to give a breath test. The arrested man had slept at the camp the previous night, and his car was in for repairs at the time.

The charge of refusing to provide a breath sample has, surprisingly enough, been dropped. IIRC this guy was in the cells for about 12 hours. More compensation to add to the pile.


----------



## Tankus (Jan 31, 2014)

Where are they getting rid of the  produced water ,? now that the Manchester ship canal is now off limits for dumping due to worries over radionuclide's and heavy metals?

Do any of the outward bound lorry's get followed ?


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2014)

I am interested in fracking, the pressures they have to build up in the wells are amazing, I am not completely sure about all the chemicals but if it delivers cheap energy it could be something.

Going to read the thread now


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2014)

SikhWarrioR said:


> Why waste the money and tech expertise on fracking when you could put it into tidal or wave which is cleaner ans well last infinately longer


Why not do both? There was an idea to tap the tide in the Bristol channel where it is massive, for some reason I understand it has been abandoned for the time being.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 31, 2014)

free spirit said:


> Fracking's been around for ages, but not really used until horizontal drilling technology was available to allow them to drill down, then drill horizontally and frack for thousands of yards around the fracking site.
> 
> .....


Always wondered about the mechanics of drilling in one direction and then changing to another. Do you know how they do that? I mean how do they make the drill and all its pipes turn a corner?


----------



## free spirit (Jan 31, 2014)

weltweit said:


> Always wondered about the mechanics of drilling in one direction and then changing to another. Do you know how they do that? I mean how do they make the drill and all its pipes turn a corner?


nope sorry, not my field, I just know that's what they're doing.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 1, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Where are they getting rid of the  produced water ,? now that the Manchester ship canal is now off limits for dumping due to worries over radionuclide's and heavy metals?
> 
> Do any of the outward bound lorry's get followed ?



I don't know where the tankers have been going. Two kinds of tankers enter and leave the site, those marked 'non hazardous' and those with all markings as to their contents removed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2014)

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...r-news/salford-homes-water-supply-cut-6660070

Water supplies contaminated in the Eccles area of Salford, coincidentally right by the fracking site.

If this is fracking related though, I'd assume it's damage to infrastructure caused by drawing a lot more water that usual rather than fracking fluid itself getting into the water supply, as it seems to be a downstream problem.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 3, 2014)

Fitted up by GMP:



> Watch this video, and prepare to be amazed. It’s an extraordinary sight, especially when it’s caught on camera…
> 
> This incident took place at Barton Moss, England, on the site of a peaceful anti-fracking protest. The UK police officer shown in this video has been caught red-handed on a power-trip gone too far.
> 
> Not content to merely to harass and intimidate (that’s come to be expected by police in the new corporate security state), he then attempts to frame the man filming on a fake DUI charge – only the victim was actually a pedestrian walking on a public footpath....





http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/...-framing-innocent-fracking-protester-for-dui/


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## ddraig (Feb 3, 2014)

post #145 mate


----------



## teqniq (Feb 3, 2014)

oops ta


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## Tankus (Feb 3, 2014)

Nah .........Repost it once a month as a reminder


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2014)

And show it to anyone still labouring under the misapprehension that plods can be trusted.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2014)

.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 4, 2014)

> *Shameless Cop Caught on Camera Framing Innocent Fracking Protester for DUI
> 
> http://21stcenturywire.com/2014/02/...-framing-innocent-fracking-protester-for-dui/*



The plot is well & truly fucking lost.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 4, 2014)

yay!


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## sim667 (Feb 5, 2014)

Is there no page that collates info on police corruption? I mean if there's one to name and shame "benefit fraudsters" why is no-one playing the same game with corrupt police?


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## ddraig (Feb 5, 2014)

NetPol ?


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 5, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The plot is well & truly fucking lost.



Third time in two pages dude.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Third time in two pages dude.



Apols! 



> Anti-fracking protester to sue police over 'trumped-up' drink arrest caught on video. The policeman then asks two other officers to breathalyse Dr Peers, who refuses to consent to the test, saying he is a pedestrian on a public footpath.
> He was later charged by GMP but the case fell apart at court when prosecutors offered no evidence.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 7, 2014)

> GMP Chief Peter Fahy has released the following in relation to the Barton Moss fracking demonstrations:
> 
> The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester has expressed his exasperation at the time spent by his Force at the anti-fracking protest site at Barton Moss in Salford. There has already been three months of protest at the site and there could now be a further two months which could cost the Force a total of nearly £1m.
> 
> ...


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## Bingo (Feb 7, 2014)

They've received 100s of complaints but reckon they can't accept one unless you were an actual witness... still even then that figure looks like a bit of a fib....


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 8, 2014)

Bingo said:


> They've received 100s of complaints but reckon they can't accept one unless you were an actual witness... still even then that figure looks like a bit of a fib....


 Everyone that's watched the clip is a fucking witness!

Unless you can prove the clip ws doctored; i'm not suggesting youtube is evidence of anything of course, but that copper's behaviour is plain to see. He lies!


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## Bingo (Feb 8, 2014)

They're just trying to get around the power that mass media has to expose their dodgy practices


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## Bingo (Feb 8, 2014)

Also does it cost the force £1 million directly or is the taxpayer paying for it, council or whatever?


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## gentlegreen (Feb 8, 2014)

"freeman" - LOL


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 9, 2014)

> GMP Chief Peter Fahy has released the following in relation to the Barton Moss fracking demonstrations:
> 
> The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester has expressed his exasperation at the time spent by his Force at the anti-fracking protest site at Barton Moss in Salford. There has already been three months of protest at the site and there could now be a further two months which could cost the Force a total of nearly £1m.
> 
> ...



Bullshit. He's making the decisions about what his officers are doing, not the protestors. 

Perhaps he could tell his officers to stop arresting people for nothing, that'd be a good start. Less paperwork, less people in the cells, less police time wasted, that's got to save a few bob. Failing that maybe stop issuing everyone with ridiculous bail conditions which they then deliberately break so they get arrested again and are able to go to court and demand unconditional bail. This is exactly the advice his force has already been given by magistrates.

Stop calling in the riot squad several times a day, that's another good way of saving on shoe leather. Above all stop letting officers repeatedly break the law on camera and thus maybe cut back on the shitstorm of court cases that is about to hit GMP for unlawful treatment of protestors. 

When people start suing the police, and they will, we'll doubtless hear about how these greedy protestors are just fleecing the taxpayer. My answer to that is that officers should be made personally liable for their own misconduct. In the same way that everyone else is, thanks to the criminal justice system the plods claim to uphold. You don't blame victims of crime for the cost of keeping criminals in prison.


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## Hocus Eye. (Feb 9, 2014)

I dread to think how bad the police would be if people weren't successfully filming their activities. It is a bit desperate accusing someone of drink driving to get them removed from filming police brutality. Also a bit pathetic trying that on early in the morning. Keep filming and recording folks.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 10, 2014)

Very good response to the Fahy (who strikes me as a reactionary dumbfuck buffoon) here:

http://manchesterclimatemonthly.net...ponse-to-greater-manchester-police-statement/


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## free spirit (Feb 10, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Very good response to the Fahy (who strikes me as a reactionary dumbfuck buffoon) here:
> 
> http://manchesterclimatemonthly.net...ponse-to-greater-manchester-police-statement/


good posts them, especially the post from about police liason.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 10, 2014)

I fucking hate those Liaison officers. Standing there all nicey-nicey pretending to be on first name terms with everyone while their chums push people's faces into the tarmac not a hundred yards away. I was disappointed to see that lots of people at the camp were happy to talk to them, albeit in a guarded and cautious sort of way.


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## Bingo (Feb 12, 2014)

The road has just been ruled a public footpath in court... the cops photographed removing the public footpath sign didn't get away with it.

... all arrests for obstructing the highway should now be thrown out. They're going to have to get busy making something else up quick!


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## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

nice one


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## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

dickheads


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## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

set the RAMBLERS on em!


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## friedaweed (Feb 12, 2014)

sim667 said:


> Is there no page that collates info on police corruption? I mean if there's one to name and shame "benefit fraudsters" why is no-one playing the same game with corrupt police?


Can't we write to our MP's about this?
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2014)

ddraig said:


> dickheads



What the fucking fuck?


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## ddraig (Feb 12, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> What the fucking fuck?


init! brazen bastards
and if there wasn't a pic from some pesky kids they would've got away with it!


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2014)

Just when you thought these fuckin cunts couldn't stoop any lower. I mean, you'd only have to check an OS to see where public footpaths were - but nick the fuckin' sign??!! 

Fuck the lot of em.


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## Bingo (Feb 12, 2014)

There's some other dodgy shit going on with radioactive liquid... apparently they're using Caesium 137 somehow in the process, by the tankerload


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 12, 2014)

Bingo said:


> There's some other dodgy shit going on with radioactive liquid... apparently they're using Caesium 137 somehow in the process, by the tankerload



It would seem so - http://frack-off.org.uk/radioactive-sources-brought-to-salford-fracking-site/


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## laptop (Feb 13, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> It would seem so - http://frack-off.org.uk/radioactive-sources-brought-to-salford-fracking-site/



Not quite by the tanker-load:






Props to frack-off for avoiding "It's teh radiations we're all going to die now" and pointing to the actual risks...


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 13, 2014)

ddraig said:


> dickheads



I only saw that photo today, which is nice because I've heard about it long ago and just hoped that it was looked after.

Surely it's a crime to do that?


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## Bingo (Feb 13, 2014)

I think you'd be hard pushed to find a day down there where there wasn't questionable shit going on.

Got a link for that radiation pic? Only thing I've seen is the warning signage on the tanker....  Ah yeah sorry its just a sample picture from something else.


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## sim667 (Feb 13, 2014)

friedaweed said:


> Can't we write to our MP's about this?
> http://www.theyworkforyou.com/


 
As if MP's read a letter you write to them


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## laptop (Feb 13, 2014)

sim667 said:


> As if MP's read a letter you write to them



Well... someone reads it for them, and tells them if there's (a) the threat of a stink if they don't deal with it or (b) the chance of credit if they do.

So you write it thus


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## friedaweed (Feb 13, 2014)

sim667 said:


> As if MP's read a letter you write to them


Last time I wrote to mine she (Or her lackey) not only replied within a week she also passed on my concerns to the relevant minister and within another week I'd had a letter from him (Or his lackey) stating what the UK govs current standing was on the issue and told me where I could find further information about what action was being taken. My MP (Or her lackey) then wrote back to me stating she would never have known about that situation if one of her constituents hadn't contacted her about it and that she hoped the ministers response was helpful and invited me to attend one of her Q & A meetings if I wished to discuss it further with her.

That's the problem with being disaffected is it not? You loose faith in the system and then uncannily assist the perpetuation of the problem that caused your disaffection in the first place. Nothing will change if nothings done about it. That's probably why PC fitup thought it was OK to crack on and accuse matey boy of drink driving.

Anyway I'm sure in waffling this much to a learned bob like yourself its a bit teaching/grandma sucking eggs but yes actually I do think it's worth a punt.

Nothing will change if you do nothing. Maybe one time when you do something, something might happen. Not all the time granted but just once makes it worth doing.



laptop said:


> Well... someone reads it for them, and tells them if there's (a) the threat of a stink if they don't deal with it or (b) the chance of credit if they do.
> 
> So you write it thus



Fazackerley


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## ddraig (Feb 13, 2014)

so they had an 8 hour party on the public footpath and the trucks gave up and turned around today!!!!

massive well done to the protesters up there


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2014)

No trucks in or out for two days now, protestors blocking the path continuously and police not able to do fuck all about it since the courts ruling that the road in question is not a public right of way for vehicles.


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## ddraig (Feb 14, 2014)

great news


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## ddraig (Feb 15, 2014)

so obviously they couldn't have that and are down there in force trying to get the trucks through
apparently even saying they'll move one with a protestor on top
standoff live now http://bambuser.com/v/4362467


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## ddraig (Feb 15, 2014)

they are trying this! 




not signed, nothing official
pathetic attempt


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## laptop (Feb 15, 2014)

ddraig said:


> they are trying this!
> pathetic attempt



Peel Investments? Which regularly features in _Private Eye_ smelling of dodginess over the Manchester media city thingy TV development and studios for the BBC ?


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## Bingo (Feb 15, 2014)

I think they own half of Liverpool and Manchester from the looks of things


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 15, 2014)

They are so fucking clueless. When they are derided worldwide for thuggery, lies and phoney "legal" bullshit, all they know how to do is to turn up the dials of all three to 12.

How the fuck do they expect to get their way nationwide with this ecocide? Well, that's what clearly has them rattled.

bambuser livestream seems problematic today btw.


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## Bingo (Feb 15, 2014)

That only applies if the mainstream media reports it... which they aint doing.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 15, 2014)

I'm watching this and someone is lying on the ground being tended by paramedices while the cops buzz around. What 'appen?


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## ddraig (Feb 15, 2014)

some pics here https://www.facebook.com/groups/SAYNOTOFRACKINGONBARTONMOSS/


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## ddraig (Feb 15, 2014)

laptop said:


> Peel Investments? Which regularly features in _Private Eye_ smelling of dodginess over the Manchester media city thingy TV development and studios for the BBC ?


bit more here but not much
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...-barton-moss-anti-fracking-protesters-6713838


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## teqniq (Feb 16, 2014)

BARTON MOSS SOLICITOR CALLS IN UNITED NATIONS AS GMP BRUTALITY INTENSIFIES



> A woman who, we understand, was having a fit, was handcuffed and dragged through a field by Greater Manchester Police Tactical Aid Unit officers at Barton Moss this afternoon. She lay on the floor for 45 minutes before an ambulance arrived.
> 
> After another unbelievable day that saw four arrests, Peel Holdings declare people were trespassing on their Barton Moss Road and police sealing off the public footpath, solicitor Simon Pook is to bring in the United Nations… "Greater Manchester Police appear to have discarded the European Convention of Human Rights into the gutter" he said....



Interesting that Peel Holdings have only now really made themselves known as having a central interest in the the fracking operation. Possibly they have felt impelled to do so after all other quasi-legal and let's be honest illegal avenues have been exhausted.

They seem to be somewhat publicity-shy like the man reputed to own three-quarters of the company, John Whittaker

The biggest company you've never heard of


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 16, 2014)

So while someone fitted the cops dragged them into no man's land and...stood and watched?

You know that Ian Bone calendar is looking more attractive every time I come to this fucking thread.

I hate society.


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## laptop (Feb 16, 2014)

teqniq said:


> BARTON MOSS SOLICITOR CALLS IN UNITED NATIONS AS GMP BRUTALITY INTENSIFIES
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, yes, that's the sort of story I was thinking of... ta.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 16, 2014)

So they've had a couple of days to think on the revelation that they've spent months arresting folk for obstruction of a non-existant highway, and this is the best excuse they could come up with to roll up and start putting the boot in again? Pathetic. These coppers must know exactly what they're doing, doing a corporation's dirty work while getting paid public money and then pretending to have a legal justification for it. I don't know how they sleep at night.


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## Bingo (Feb 16, 2014)

Apparently a lot of them are ex-forces from Iraq and Afghanistan, trained killers desensitised to human suffering.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 16, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Apparently a lot of them are ex-forces from Iraq and Afghanistan, trained killers desensitised to human suffering.



Apparently just cunts with flat feet who didn't get into the forces


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 16, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Apparently a lot of them are ex-forces from Iraq and Afghanistan, trained killers desensitised to human suffering.



While I don't particularly care for soldiers, my experience of them is that they are generally highly professional and disciplined in what they do, and whilst many of us wouldn't share them they generally have moral standards. The sort of policing seen at Barton Moss is not the work of people with professional pride, self-discipline or moral standards. This is not something I thought I'd ever say about anything but to me this kind of treatment of defenceless civillians is beneath the vast majority of servicemen and ex-servicemen.

Above all, the behaviour we've seen from GMP is the behaviour of cowards.


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## Bingo (Feb 16, 2014)

I used to work with an ex squaddy he was a very nasty piece of work, used to laugh about blowing up mosques and killing women and children... I think he was completely mentally unhinged. Very aggressive day to day. I left that firm. Thing is with that Tactical Assault Unit I think they specifically recruit that type of people.


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## Bingo (Feb 16, 2014)

They like following orders etc


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 16, 2014)

Bingo said:


> They like following orders etc



Plod don't though, they act with impunity, that's the problem.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 16, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Plod don't though, they act with impunity, that's the problem.



They've been given orders to lay into these protestors. It's clear from their behaviour that someone very important (probably higher up that the PCC, which is a non-job as far as I can tell) has told them to do whatever they like and not to worry about the consequences. They're quite happily breaking every law they can think of with half a dozen video cameras pointed at them day in, day out.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 16, 2014)

They've been acting like this for decades Frank. It's nowt new sadly.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 16, 2014)

I've been watching some of Ian R Crane's footage on this issue. Shame that the rest of the time he's also a truther conspiranaut.

Shame also there are freeman on the land types spouting their rubbish amongst the protesters.

Still, it's a free country...more importantly (for now)

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/59765/signature/thank-you


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2014)

It's not a free country.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2014)

Plods out in force again today, apparently still claiming that people can be arrested for trespassing on a public footpath.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 17, 2014)

https://submissions.epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/59765/signature/thank-you


SpookyFrank said:


> Plods out in force again today, apparently still claiming that people can be arrested for trespassing on a public footpath.


are they actually arresting people, or just threatening them?


----------



## Bingo (Feb 17, 2014)

yep, arresting... aggravated trespass apparently!


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## Bingo (Feb 18, 2014)

Eviction notice served today...


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 18, 2014)

But they must know these people are going to get let off on such bullshit charges.


----------



## free spirit (Feb 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> But they must know these people are going to get let off on such bullshit charges.


yes, but it still gives them a means to harass and intimidate people, and maybe find some weed on them or something that they can nick them for / get them to accept a caution / impose harsh police bail conditions etc etc


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 18, 2014)

what a pathetic state of affairs this is.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 19, 2014)

2 people in Strangeways on remand for agg trespass. When the law finds against these people they clamp down harder.

Friday is the first hearing regarding an eviction notice. Big callout for people to get to camp in the morning for solidarity (rather than the court, which will be a relative formality).

Get the word out.


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## Kaka Tim (Feb 19, 2014)

On remand for trespass! Since when do you get put on remand for minor shit like that? 

That is very, very dodge. 

Im assuming the cops opposed bail and the maj waved it through. Be interesting to see the cops arguments.


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## laptop (Feb 19, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> I'm assuming the cops opposed bail and the maj waved it through. Be interesting to see the cops arguments.




Liable to repeat the alleged offence.


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## ddraig (Feb 19, 2014)

it is not the woman who got assaulted the other day, hospitalised and then assaulted again by the same officer when back on site a couple of says later is it?


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## Kaka Tim (Feb 19, 2014)

laptop said:


> Liable to repeat the alleged offence.



Yeah - but, trespass? People only get remanded for serious shit - major fraud or theft, violence, murder - TRESPASS!?! Is aggravated trespass even imprisonable offence?


----------



## laptop (Feb 19, 2014)

Kaka Tim said:


> Yeah - but, trespass? People only get remanded for serious shit - major fraud or theft, violence, murder - TRESPASS!?! Is aggravated trespass even imprisonable offence?



I fear some magistrates are susceptible to Magic Phrases From The Act - and "liable to repeat" is one.

And wasn't Aggravated Trespass designed for this purpose?

(Un-aggravated trespass is a civil matter, anyway.)


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 19, 2014)

One seems to have been remanded following saying his body was his address.

There's a protest outside Strangeways at the mo. Facey says the TAU have just arrived.


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## laptop (Feb 19, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> One seems to have been remanded following saying his body was his address.



That'd be "no fixed address", unless he's comatose. Begging to be remanded!

(Not, you understand, in any way an expression of sympathy for cops or magistrates. Just frustration at self-destructive activists.)


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 20, 2014)

Ecologist piece on policing at The Moss.

http://www.theecologist.org/News/news_analysis/2289897/salfords_shock_at_barton_moss_policing.html


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## Bingo (Feb 20, 2014)

not much about brutality in there


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 21, 2014)

Eviction hearing adjourned for 2 weeks

http://salfordonline.com/localnews_...ti_fracking_camp_eviction_case_adjourned.html


Lying plod who lied on camera to all of the internets to be investigated by IPCC

http://www.itv.com/news/granada/2014-02-21/ipcc-annouce-barton-moss-arrest-investigation/

BBC were filming the walk today, probably to do with the hearing. They turned up in a police car. By sheer coincidence, TAU weren't used and there were no brutal assaults of elderly or vulnerable people for the cameras.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2014)

That inspector who was filmed inventing a drink driving charge, a number of Salfordians showed up at his house the other night to wish him well in his forthcoming quest to clear his name.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 21, 2014)

.


----------



## ddraig (Feb 21, 2014)

.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 21, 2014)

Hmmmmm.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 21, 2014)

ddraig said:


> it is not the woman who got assaulted the other day, hospitalised and then assaulted again by the same officer when back on site a couple of says later is it?


Vanda? They attacked her again? ffs!


----------



## ddraig (Feb 21, 2014)

yes, the same copper too apparently


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## DaveCinzano (Feb 21, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> That inspector who was filmed inventing a drink driving charge...



Surely that was a Sergeant?

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...d-anti-fracking-protester-sue-greater-6676499


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 21, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> That inspector who was filmed inventing a drink driving charge, a number of Salfordians showed up at his house the other night to wish him well in his forthcoming quest to clear his name.


Please elaborate


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> Surely that was a Sergeant?
> 
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...d-anti-fracking-protester-sue-greater-6676499



I just call them all CUNTstable tbh.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 21, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Vanda? They attacked her again? ffs!



Vanda's in today's MEN:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.../barton-moss-fracking-protestor-vanda-6729454


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 22, 2014)

A FB post:

This is a heart felt message to all the beautiful people of Barton Moss who care enough about our precious land, who make great personal sacrifices, who are not afraid to stand up and be counted in the front line against Fracking.

I’m Steve, the ex serviceman, current firefighter who was arrested, along with others on Tuesday 18th Feb. It was a new experience for me to see the inside of a cell as I’ve never been arrested before, and as the hours passed by, I must admit to feeling a little dejected, and also a little anxious as I was due to start a night shift at 7pm. However, as I was released, I was greeted and cheered by all the friendly faces of the Barton Moss protectors. My spirits were lifted instantly, people whom I hardly knew were coming up and hugging me, thanking me and offering me food. Such a contrast from the cold environment I was experiencing just moments before. I was so overwhelmed, I almost shed a tear, but managed to keep my composure.

With my night shift looming, plans were put into place to transport me to work and a wonderful lady, Angela Jackson was my escort. But Angela was more than a one way ticket. She returned at 08:30 the very next morning to help me get home and whilst listening to her speak, I realised the true deep sense of feeling of unjust amongst the ‘awakened’ people of this country, and knew I was not alone. I will never never forget what Angela and the protectors did for me that day.

Well, my feet have hardly touched the ground since then, and news has spread like wildfire through the fire service and amongst my friends and family. Everybody I know is now talking about, and asking questions about Fracking, so hopefully my small contribution to the cause has made some kind of impact. I never intended to be arrested, but by arresting me and others, the Greater Manchester Police have given some much needed publicity to our cause, and every arrest they make will continue to do the same. 

I shared my arrest video far and wide amongst my friends, and friends of friends, some of whom were completely unaware of the daily events at Barton Moss, and whilst they didn’t think the swearing helped us at all, they were very supportive of our cause. 

The compassion, humanity, solidarity and shear determination i’ve experienced at Barton Moss, from such a diverse cross section of our civil society has truly been inspirational, and it has just made me more determined to keep fighting on. So from the bottom of my heart, I thank you all for looking after me xxx


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## Jackobi (Feb 22, 2014)

"Hacienda DJ to play free gig in support of Barton Moss anti-fracking protesters

Dave Haslam will perform at the site in Salford on Sunday [23rd March] – in an event nicknamed FRAC 51."

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/whats-on/whats-on-news/anti-fracking-protest-gig---6730696


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 22, 2014)

15 year old girl, visiting BM for 1st time researching a geog project.

Arrested and held for 6 hours.

Just another episode in political policing and bullying.

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2157


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 22, 2014)

"*Last night, around two dozen people protested outside Swinton Police Station, while Saffron was held for six hours without being allowed access to her mother."*

Is that legal?

(Is any of this?)


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 1, 2014)

How not to arrest.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 6, 2014)

Some shots from a lock-on and general vibe today.

http://www.demotix.com/news/4106969...-deliveries-barton-moss-salford#media-4106881

The court eviction hearing is now scheduled to last 2 days, the judge is scooting off on hols on Sunday so will give a ruling tomorrow or Saturday. There are other avenues even if he rules for Peel et al.

Big rally in central manchester this Sunday.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2014)

Some good news from the court case, it seems the judge has raised the fairly obvious point that a company cannot evict anyone from land which it has leased to someone else.

Slightly annoyed that when the court papers were first served to site, resident self-appointed legal expert and purveyor of sub-David Icke conspiratorial fuckwittery Ian R Crane didn't even mention the issue of the disputed land being leased out to someone else, deciding instead that what we needed was letters of support from local residents, none of which would have had any bearing on an actual point of law


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## Bingo (Mar 6, 2014)

sub-David Icke conspiratorial fuckwittery I like the sound of that! He seems like a nice bloke though.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2014)

The prevalence of freemen on the land types at the site probably isn't helping either. I daresay their solution to the camp's legal difficulties is for everyone to turn up in court with bags on their heads and claim that they can't lose the case because they're not really there at all. 

'Yes your honour, today I'm going to be represented by this porcelain squirrel'
'Oh blast, you found out about the porcelain squirrel decree of 1431 which naturally hasn't been repealed or amended at any point in the intervening six centuries. It seems I have no choice but to let you go free. We'll be sending you five thousand quid for your transport costs and general inconvenience, together with a certificate of immunity from all future prosecutions for any crime. On behalf of her majesty the queen and the great lizard overlords themselves, we apologise for impinging on your valuable time.'


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2014)

Bingo said:


> sub-David Icke conspiratorial fuckwittery I like the sound of that! He seems like a nice bloke though.



Well yes, coming across as a nice bloke no doubt helps him promote his dangerous bullshit. He's there at Barton Moss to promote his brand. If he was in a  legitimate political party that wouldn't be tolerated, yet for some reason people are happy for him to use their genuine struggle as a soapbox.


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## ddraig (Mar 6, 2014)

their fb group has a few dickheads calling people sheeple and going on about the Illuminati etc


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 6, 2014)

ddraig said:


> their fb group has a few dickheads calling people sheeple and going on about the Illuminati etc



Yeah they seriously need some moderation on there, there's people selling crystal healing products and all sorts of shite.


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## friedaweed (Mar 6, 2014)

ddraig said:


> their fb group has a few dickheads calling people sheeple and going on about the Illuminati etc


Probably undercover feds


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Some good news from the court case, it seems the judge has raised the fairly obvious point that a company cannot evict anyone from land which it has leased to someone else.
> 
> Slightly annoyed that when the court papers were first served to site, resident self-appointed legal expert and purveyor of sub-David Icke conspiratorial fuckwittery Ian R Crane didn't even mention the issue of the disputed land being leased out to someone else, deciding instead that what we needed was letters of support from local residents, none of which would have had any bearing on an actual point of law



Despite his ridiculous views, he does seem to be genuinely interested in the issue of fracking. 

The problem is that these people, despite their views, are the ones standing against it.

I have no idea what position Crane has within their community; I know Charlie Veitch (who quite frankly I find very tedious) has been sniffing around. 

I'm not sure how one goes about separating these people's good intentions and good works from their beliefs. Freeman on the Land stuff is exasperating and utterly stupid; an excuse for idiots to drive like twats without insurance. But any attempt to explain things just seems to reinforce the point: "you would say that, you're part of the system maaaaaaaaaan!"


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well yes, coming across as a nice bloke no doubt helps him promote his dangerous bullshit. He's there at Barton Moss to promote his brand. If he was in a  legitimate political party that wouldn't be tolerated, yet for some reason people are happy for him to use their genuine struggle as a soapbox.


Doesn't he have connections to one of these English Democracy groups; Brian Gerrish's lot?

I don't think Crane's racist, btw (i hope not), just very wrong about a lot of things.

Chunky Mark the Artist Taxi Driver seems to have similar conspiraloon views to the freeman crew from what I can gather and everyone enjoys him shouting on youtube!


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The problem is that these people, despite their views, are the ones standing against it.



And there are plenty of people who get put off joining in with this sort of campaign by the number of tedious, preachy lunatics constantly hovering about. IMO for every Ian R Crane type figure you get rid of you stand a good chance of getting dozens more people involved.

I've only been able to spend limited amounts of time at Barton Moss, not least thanks to some of the people who hang around at the camp. The worst of them, I have to say, are the two druids who seem like they've strolled straight out of the pages of Viz. They're patronising, smug, superior, rude and they appear to contribute absolutely fuck all. I overheard them in the queue at a local supermarket loudly slagging off the people of Salford, saying they were a bunch of slobbering untermenschen who only care about coronation street and scratchcards. None of the local people who overheard that conversation will be supporting the anti-fracking campaign, that much is pretty certain. It's all very well putting a sign on your caravan saying 'we love all living things' but if you actually treat human-shaped living things like crap then it rings pretty hollow.

I really don't think you have to agree to tolerate shit people in order to build a protest movement. I think the opposite is true.


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## Bingo (Mar 7, 2014)

You should have told them they were out of order


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> And there are plenty of people who get put off joining in with this sort of campaign by the number of tedious, preachy lunatics constantly hovering about. IMO for every Ian R Crane type figure you get rid of you stand a good chance of getting dozens more people involved.
> 
> I've only been able to spend limited amounts of time at Barton Moss, not least thanks to some of the people who hang around at the camp. The worst of them, I have to say, are the two druids who seem like they've strolled straight out of the pages of Viz. They're patronising, smug, superior, rude and they appear to contribute absolutely fuck all. I overheard them in the queue at a local supermarket loudly slagging off the people of Salford, saying they were a bunch of slobbering untermenschen who only care about coronation street and scratchcards. None of the local people who overheard that conversation will be supporting the anti-fracking campaign, that much is pretty certain. It's all very well putting a sign on your caravan saying 'we love all living things' but if you actually treat human-shaped living things like crap then it rings pretty hollow.
> 
> I really don't think you have to agree to tolerate shit people in order to build a protest movement. I think the opposite is true.


I agree. I'm not saying that is necessary. It just seems to be the case right now, in Barton Moss. If the freeman on the land crew (a belief mired in racists) and the woo woo peddlers are putting people off, then that's utterly unacceptable. I don't know how Crane got involved, I only know that he is and that, on this issue at least, he is speaking out, and that his vidoes, a couple of which i've posted here (i don't follow him, they appear as 'recommendations' from other fracking demo clips i've watched), are, in and of themselves, worth watching.

Is he spending his time preaching about 911 truth or, what might be worse, spreading bullshit about green politics (it's all a conspiracy!)


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## Bingo (Mar 7, 2014)

Everything I've seen from him is focussed on fracking... hasn't he years of industry experience? I saw some conspiracy stuff but the consensus in the group seemed to be that this was an attempt to discredit him.


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## Wilf (Mar 7, 2014)

Slightly embarrassed to say this thread is just about the first time I've looked into the movement against fracking (and even then I've not read the whole thread ) - despite having been to one of the climate camps. As such it's depressing to hear these assorted Ickeists and freeman are in _any way_ prominent, just as they seem to have been around Occupy. But relations between the protesters more generally and the locals have been generally positive?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 7, 2014)

Wilf said:


> Slightly embarrassed to say this thread is just about the first time I've looked into the movement against fracking (and even then I've not read the whole thread ) - despite having been to one of the climate camps. As such it's depressing to hear these assorted Ickeists and freeman are in _any way_ prominent, just as they seem to have been around Occupy. But relations between the protesters more generally and the locals have been generally positive?



The locals have been very supportive and everyone generally seems to get on with everyone else. It's hard to tell how prominent the fruitloops really are, but generally things like this (particularly where there's a free place to stay, free food and a general atmosphere of being friendly and welcoming to anyone who shows up claiming to support the cause) are a magnet for certain types of people.

Freemen by their very nature love getting something for nothing, their whole schtick is based on the idea of wanting your bins collected but not wanting to pay the council tax that pays the binmen's wages. At protest camps you can get food, shelter and booze for free. You will also encounter decent, caring sorts of people who may be reluctant to tell you to fuck off even if they'd really quite like you to.

The problem comes when people with rather anti-social views on how the world works or should work (Crane IIRC wants the human population to be kept under half a billion, so he's not what I'd call a people person) come to dominate a campaign. I'm not saying they do dominate the anti-fracking campaign in terms of numbers, but they seem very adept at making themselves spokespeople and setting themselves up as experts on this that or the other thing which they clearly don't understand. Whether it's the freemen calling themselves legal experts, or the climate change deniers calling themselves experts on environmental science, there's a danger of letting the biggest loudmouth (and coincidentally the person who is most wrong about everything) hold sway over proceedings.

I never had much to do with the occupy movement, mostly because I knew the local camp was increasingly coming under the control of a handful of nutjobs who I'd encountered before and who I knew I couldn't constructively work with. Some of them were people who had been repeatedly asked to leave various other projects and campaigns in the past. Also I was never entirely clear on what the point of it was, and I was worried that they seemed to have lots of catchy soundbites and very little in the way of actual politics or strategy. Either that or there was a reluctance to explain what the politics actually were because they knew that that would be a lot less popular than the soundbites.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

Bingo said:


> Everything I've seen from him is focussed on fracking... hasn't he years of industry experience? I saw some conspiracy stuff but the consensus in the group seemed to be that this was an attempt to discredit him.


He claims he used to work in the oil industry. Hard to see how people could think the conspiracy stuff would be an attempt to discredit him when he's spent years right at the heart of the 911 truther/nwo agenda/illuminati bollocks. i've no idea what his views of freemanism are, or crystals or whatever else, nor how he came to believe in this crap. I'm more concerned that he thinks green solutions are largely also part of the nwo agenda.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> The problem comes when people with rather anti-social views on how the world works or should work (Crane IIRC wants the human population to be kept under half a billion, so he's not what I'd call a people person) come to dominate a campaign.



I thought that was one of the schemes the 'NWO' were all in favour of - the people Crane and company all campaign against.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 7, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> The locals have been very supportive and everyone generally seems to get on with everyone else. It's hard to tell how prominent the fruitloops really are, but generally things like this (particularly where there's a free place to stay, free food and a general atmosphere of being friendly and welcoming to anyone who shows up claiming to support the cause) are a magnet for certain types of people.





Wilf said:


> But relations between the protesters more generally and the locals have been generally positive?



I've gotta say I've been in Salford on and off visiting friends a fair bit while this is protest has been going on and I've not heard much sympathy for the protestors from the people there I've spoken to about it. Infact I've heard some really withering aggressive criticism of them from a few people, and the general attitude seems to be that they'd rather not be there. They don't like the fracking either but they're not keen on the protestors. There's certainly sympathy over the way the police have acted, because the police are arseholes, but the GMP have been violent heavy-handed arseholes for years that's how they were when I lived in Salford and that's how a lot of people who live there experience the police. It's not something that's just been revealed to people in the course of this protest I don't think. 

I also know one of two of the lefty people who were first involved in getting the the anti-fracking stuff together who are regretting being involved simply because of the sheer number of conspiraloons who have descended onto it. These things are a honey magnet for undercover cops too, which I think puts people off.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 7, 2014)

Are the 'natives' upset purely because of the conspiranauts, or are there other complaints.


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 7, 2014)

Probably on the same tip as Balcombe, rich young meedja hipsters, with a splattering of yogurt weaving conspiraloonism on the side.

But whatever, there's active resistance, & that's a good thang.


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## Wilf (Mar 7, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> But whatever, there's active resistance, & that's a good thang.


 Yeah, certainly, you can't ultimately object to
people opposing fracking when the thing's set up to oppose fracking.  It's just it tends alienate other activists and locals - puts boundaries around what these movements might have the possibility to become.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 8, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Crane IIRC wants the human population to be kept under half a billion, so he's not what I'd call a people person



Whatever else may be said about him (I'd say positive and negative things) - the opposite is true in this case. He is more likely to be one of the ones banging on about a plot to reduce the population to that level, which may be where your confusion stems from.

Fracking is but one area where conspiraloons are thrown together with more traditional left/green/anarchist types. It's easy to see the difficulties there, but needn't make things impossible.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 8, 2014)

There's a contrast of accounts on here, Delroy Booth cites locals not liking the protesters, but plenty clearly do support them too. 

A recent MEN poll has 73% of respondents being anti-fracking, I think they are going to produce unflattering stats for police tomorrow as well. 

This is a marked difference from what might have been the case 4 months ago. The Protectors have given a great deal of airing to the issue, and when people look into the facts of fracking for themselves, beyond the framed establisment mainstream media, they often tend to not like what they see. That alone makes the Barton Moss camp a pretty handsome success, be they loons, hipsters or whatever. 

The boring truth, unsurprisingly, is that plenty of them are just rather normal people going out of their way to try and have a positive impact.


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## Delroy Booth (Mar 8, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A recent MEN poll has 73% of respondents being anti-fracking, I think they are going to produce unflattering stats for police tomorrow as well.



I did actually say that most people I know who live there weren't keen on the fracking either, but I'm sorry I see no evidence of much sympathy towards the protestors whenever I'm in Salford. 

I'm just telling you the truth of my experiences. It's anecdotal evidence I accept but still, what would you have me say?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 8, 2014)

Delroy Booth said:


> I did actually say that most people I know who live there weren't keen on the fracking either, but I'm sorry I see no evidence of much sympathy towards the protestors whenever I'm in Salford.
> 
> I'm just telling you the truth of my experiences. It's anecdotal evidence I accept but still, what would you have me say?



I don't doubt you, it's just that there is clearly good will too, as seen from the vast amounts of strangers who donate for starters. Mixed opinions is no big shock. 

The opinions of those you cite: What kind of direct / indirect experience do you think it is based on?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 8, 2014)

Manchester Evening News has slowly changed its tune over the months. This is reasonable journalism on the whole (though he can't substantiate police brutality having been assaulted)

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ws/fracking-protester-82-shocked-core-6788246


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 8, 2014)

Delroy - Do you think those who oppose the protectors would accept the fact that your discussions wouldn't even take place without the camp existing? Have they suggested other effective means of opposing fracking in their area? (preferably that they have been involved in)


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 9, 2014)

Great photos from today with a good tune to boot


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## free spirit (Mar 10, 2014)

That's a fair old turn out.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 10, 2014)

Like the song!


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## friedaweed (Mar 10, 2014)

Good effort


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 10, 2014)

Peel holdings have won their court case, the protestors have been given until noon tomorrow to leave.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 10, 2014)

A bit more detail: 

OFFICIAL REPORT FROM COURT SOLICITOR<<<The court has granted possession to the claimants, Peel. The defendants then requested permission to appeal that decision. This was refused by the judge. The defendants have asked for time to go to the Court of Appeal for permission to appeal the decision. The judge has given until 12 noon tomorrow to allow time for the Court of Appeal. Then we await the decision of the Court of Appeal to have an oral hearing. In other words- NO EVICTION POSSIBLE UNTIL 12 NOON


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 12, 2014)

Did they win permission?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 13, 2014)

Still waiting for a decision from the court of appeal whether or not to allow the protestors to appeal the original ruling in favour of peel. Until a decision is reached there can be no eviction of the camp.

The police are continuing to be cunts. Even if the general public don't care about children and pensioners getting shoved about, crushed and trampled on they should at least make a fuss about the sheer number of police turning up every day solely to protect a private business project and costing ratepayers hundreds of thousands in the process.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 14, 2014)

The court of appeal has given the protestors until the 26th of March to provide evidence for an appeal, after which a new court date will be set. This means that the camp cannot be evicted for at least another two weeks. 

IGas and GMP not best pleased, today they've sent in a whole phalanx of coppers just to search a tool shed. They found, err, some tools.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 15, 2014)

Local legend Bez has come out in support of the anti-fracking campaign and now plans to stand as MP for Salford 

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/happy-mondays-bez-stand-mp-3243473

e2a: Although it seems he shares some dubious ideas with some of the barton moss campers about all human diseases being caused by people not being alkiline enough, to which the solution is presumably to get everyone to eat toothpaste and drink sodium hydroxide


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 15, 2014)

We all enjoy his wacky on stage personality, but take himseriously? Come on!


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## bignose1 (Mar 16, 2014)

Theres a small camp been going for a couple of weeks outside of the new GMP HQ. Anti frackers and the brother of Anthony Grainger who was shot dead by cops as he sat unarmed in a car. Ill post a couple of pics.(Done-but ones sideways fsr)


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 17, 2014)

Check the picture here. The probably haven't had as much of a good leer since they threw a 15 year old girl into the back of their van.

http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2196


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## albionism (Mar 18, 2014)

BEZ WITNESSES BARTON MOSS GREATER MANCHESTER POLICE BRUTALITY


http://www.salfordstar.com/article.asp?id=2196
 eta: opps didn't it had realise been posted already


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 18, 2014)

She'd obviously been hurt, as these photos clearly show;

http://londonnewspictures.photoshel...onMoss1-JGO/G0000nV0_ZrQGHQ4/I0000SFfvAJ4NFb0


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 18, 2014)

I don't think the 'what bez saw' angle really helps. This is quite serious and no one takes him seriously.

Sorry Bez, we of a certain age think you're awesome, but this is real life.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2014)

I've seen the video footage of Vanda's arrest from yesterday, it's pretty horrifying stuff alright but sadly shoving arrestees face down on the tarmac with three or four coppers pinning them down is fairly standard procedure at Barton Moss. 

The one time they grabbed me they let me off with a quick throttle and a half-hearted punch in the face, possibly because I'm a big lad who maybe has half a chance of defending himself in some way, and GMP don't like that. They're such cowards that they generally save the worst violence for women; despite the fact they've got weapons, training, superior numbers and the ability to have anyone who so much as raises a hand to defend themselves sent to prison.

I don't hold out much hope for any of these brutes getting in any real trouble for any of this, they wouldn't be acting like this in front of TV cameras if someone very important hadn't guaranteed them some sort of immunity. I have to console myself with the thought that to live as such a pitiful coward, to be so filled with hatred, must be a punishment in itself.


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## ddraig (Mar 18, 2014)

i doubt they're filled with hatred, most of them love the battering part of the job
and they get paid too!


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2014)

Mr.Bishie said:


> She'd obviously been hurt, as these photos clearly show;
> 
> http://londonnewspictures.photoshel...onMoss1-JGO/G0000nV0_ZrQGHQ4/I0000SFfvAJ4NFb0



She's now been remanded for 7 days


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 18, 2014)

What the fucking fuck?


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 18, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's now been remanded for 7 days


For what? Getting in the way of some fat nazi pig's fist? This is sickening! Why are they picking on her?


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 18, 2014)

Say what you like about the beliefs of some of these protesters but it's a credit to them they haven't turn around and lamped one of these cunts.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> For what? Getting in the way of some fat nazi pig's fist? This is sickening! Why are they picking on her?



Assault on a police officer apparently. From the footage it looks like she's just reaching up with a camera to film someone right before they grab her. Presumably they'll say that she attacked the coppers who arrested her but it's very difficult to go limp and offer no resistance at all when you're suddenly attacked by a bunch of big lads out of nowhere.

When she was pinned down by several coppers one of them kept saying 'she's fighting back', clearly for the benefit of the camera, but she's screaming in pain and visibly injured so she's naturally not gonna comply with the cunt that's sat on her spine. Police officers are trained to restrain people without hurting them or getting hurt themselves, what happened to Vanda was just violence for it's own sake, regardless of what she's supposedly done to provoke the arrest in the first place.

This is a common pattern, whereby the more brutally they treat someone the more jumped up the charges they bring against them. Having seen the mess they've made of Vanda, and most likely the publically available footage of her arrest as well, they've clearly decided that another charge of aggravated trespass isn't gonna cut it. They did the exact same thing to a friend of mine at Balcombe, after his arrest made the national news the police decided he'd assaulted them first.

Alfie Meadows as well, exact same thing with him. They nearly killed the poor bastard, and still they've got the temerity to manufacture a charge of assault. Despicable.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Say what you like about the beliefs of some of these protesters but it's a credit to them they haven't turn around and lamped one of these cunts.



I've only spent a couple of weeks there and I found it very difficult not to stick my elbow in one of their faces. The people who've been there since day one must be made of sterner stuff than me.

It's the way they're visibly picking on women in particular that really fills me with rage. I can take a bit of shoving and I've got enough height and weight to stand my ground. So they'll leave me be and shove, kick, punch people half my size instead; all down low where the cameras can't see it in the crush. I've seen some pretty blatant feeling up of women too. Cowardice and cruelty of the worst kind, and still they haven't induced a single protestor to throw a single punch in defence or retaliation, for all that they continually claim otherwise.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 19, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Assault on a police officer apparently. From the footage it looks like she's just reaching up with a camera to film someone right before they grab her. Presumably they'll say that she attacked the coppers who arrested her but it's very difficult to go limp and offer no resistance at all when you're suddenly attacked by a bunch of big lads out of nowhere.
> 
> When she was pinned down by several coppers one of them kept saying 'she's fighting back', clearly for the benefit of the camera, but she's screaming in pain and visibly injured so she's naturally not gonna comply with the cunt that's sat on her spine. Police officers are trained to restrain people without hurting them or getting hurt themselves, what happened to Vanda was just violence for it's own sake, regardless of what she's supposedly done to provoke the arrest in the first place.
> 
> ...


I watched the clip yesteday and it is absolute chaos thanks to the cops charging forward for no reason - yet there are police liasons in front of the protesters who clearly cannot move forward. Then all hell breaks loose when the snatch squads seem to swallow her up. I couldn't even make out what she was doing, but I cannot imagine there'd be anything that could justify 3 big brutes bearing down on her. It is abundantly clear she is not resisting anything. All she is doing is screaming, probably because 3 brutes are crushing her!
Perhaps now the (local) media have seen this first hand, there might be some beginnings of getting this into the greater public consciousness, though of course they will give the cops the benefit of the doubt. They say she's resisting arrest, so she deserves it! Awful! I hope the case against her is dropped, I cannot see what evidence they can conjure up. What a sick joke.



Music vs cunts!


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## ddraig (Mar 19, 2014)

local and national media have seen stuff happening already
vast majority of the country still thinks they are dirty hippies activist troublemaking scum that need a wash and to get a job
unfortunately


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 19, 2014)

GMP now seem to be saying that they've charged Vanda with assaulting a police officer because she took a lunge at the custody officer at Swinton nick. Because after the kicking she'd already had, she must've been really keen to provoke another one. 

Coincidentally, the IPCC won't handle complaints against the police from those against whom there are ongoing criminal proceedings. So with this assault charge they can hold up the investigation of the assault on her by six months or a year, time enough for even mouth-breathers like the GMP to get their story straight and manufacture or destroy some evidence as appropriate.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 19, 2014)

Cant others complain on her behalf as witness to all of this?


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## Mr.Bishie (Mar 21, 2014)

Another squirming lying bastard of a Chief Super.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 22, 2014)

This guy's bullshit is frankly Orwellian!

"Passively resisting arrest"?

"We can't just drag them along"!


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 22, 2014)

Watched that video the other day. I dunno how he's got the cheek to say over and over again that protestors should present some evidence for their accusations of brutality when video footage is uploaded to youtube and elsewhere every day and everything that happens at Barton Moss is streamed live on the internet.


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## ddraig (Mar 22, 2014)

what a mealy mouthed bastard, well trained and reading from a crib sheet


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## teqniq (Mar 22, 2014)

apols if previously posted but this may prove to be an effective means of protest/direct action:

Wrongmove


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## muscovyduck (Mar 22, 2014)

teqniq: 13015260 said:
			
		

> apols if previously posted but this may prove to be an effective means of protest/direct action:
> 
> Wrongmove


How does that work if you live in a flat?


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## teqniq (Mar 22, 2014)

Lol I live in a flat and all I did was enter my postcode. It said something to the effect that I live in an area where fracking is proposed - I actually live in Cardiff so they must mean the Vale of Glamorgan it then let me register my opposition.


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## laptop (Mar 23, 2014)

teqniq said:


> apols if previously posted but this may prove to be an effective means of protest/direct action:
> 
> Wrongmove


I entered SW1A 0PW - postcode for the House of Lords - and SW1A 0AA - the Commons - and it told me both were liable to be fracked


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2014)

I'm not convinced by this legal block idea, for the simple fact that the government and the drilling companies are not gonna give a solitary fuck whether or not you want fracking to take place under you house. They don't care when an entire community tells them to get lost, why should they care about one homeowner? The prime minister himself has announced that whatever bit of the UK can be fracked will be fracked, with no mention of what right he or anyone else could possibly have to make such a decision. What more proof do we need that the question of public consent does not enter into the matter?

And short of hiring your own drilling rig and/or complicated geophysics apparatus there would be no way to prove they were actually under your property. Even if your rabbit hutch disappears down a sinkhole they'll probably just claim it's a coincidence.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 23, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> This guy's bullshit is frankly Orwellian!
> 
> "Passively resisting arrest"?
> 
> "We can't just drag them along"!




http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 23, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Watched that video the other day. I dunno how he's got the cheek to say over and over again that protestors should present some evidence for their accusations of brutality when video footage is uploaded to youtube and elsewhere every day and everything that happens at Barton Moss is streamed live on the internet.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2014)

Yeah but gaslighting mostly only works on one person at a time, and is probably more effective when there isn't shitloads of video footage of what actually happened.


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## laptop (Mar 23, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah but gaslighting mostly only works on one person at a time, and is probably more effective when there isn't shitloads of video footage of what actually happened.



Aye. But why go for the straightforward "it's a PR line to sow doubt" when there's something far more exciting and delusional at hand?

Anyway, the cop is strictly correct in demanding that protesters must *present* evidence - in the sense that he understands "present". Just raise the funds and sue. (Without resort to Freeman shite.)


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 23, 2014)

laptop said:


> Aye. But why go for the straightforward "it's a PR line to sow doubt" when there's something far more exciting and delusional at hand?
> 
> Anyway, the cop is strictly correct in demanding that protesters must *present* evidence - in the sense that he understands "present". Just raise the funds and sue. (Without resort to Freeman shite.)



I do worry about the freeman stuff. There are so many cast iron cases to be made against the police for wrongful arrest, assault, misconduct etc; but then you've got these fucking idiots telling people who often don't have much experience of the legal system to demand their cases be heard by the queen's bench court (abolished in 1875) or something simillarly idiotic and devoid of any foundation in reality or common sense.


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## Doctor Carrot (Mar 23, 2014)

Did anyone see Bez on the Sunday politics? 'Maracas against Frackers'


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 24, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I do worry about the freeman stuff. There are so many cast iron cases to be made against the police for wrongful arrest, assault, misconduct etc; but then you've got these fucking idiots telling people who often don't have much experience of the legal system to demand their cases be heard by the queen's bench court (abolished in 1875) or something simillarly idiotic and devoid of any foundation in reality or common sense.



won't these cases have to go though the IPCC?


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> won't these cases have to go though the IPCC?



Well you can take a complaint to the IPCC or you can take civil legal action against the police, or you can do both. Depending on your situation you might need to be careful how much information you give the IPCC as anything you tell them you're effectively telling the police as well, which could have implications for the success of a court case against them.

But my advice would always be, find a lawyer with a good track record of dealing with legal action against the police and ask her what you should do. Don't just listen to me or any other anonymous idiot on the internet.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 24, 2014)

Maybe Mr Crane could do something, he seems a proactive sort


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Maybe Mr Crane could do something, he seems a proactive sort



He's also a dangerous idiot.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 24, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> He's also a dangerous idiot.


Indeed. But at least he's caught some of this shit on camera. In this at least, and as someone that's aware of his bullshit, I don't have a problem. 

I'm a bit confused by his enthusiasm for this protest though. I get that he hates The Man, but part of his truther schtick, and those like him, is their wild eyed denial of climate change. This has always puzzled me since it plays directly into the hands of the big bad New World Order.


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## SpookyFrank (Mar 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm a bit confused by his enthusiasm for this protest though. I get that he hates The Man, but part of his truther schtick, and those like him, is their wild eyed denial of climate change. This has always puzzled me since it plays directly into the hands of the big bad New World Order.



You're making the mistake of using logic to try and understand the views of people who wouldn't know logic if you tied it to the front of a bus and ran them over with it. 

Deny the moon landings were real, that's fine. Say Paul McCartney is not the real Paul McCartney, that's also fine. Those things are basically irrelevant. But when your wacky views start sounding uncannily like those of corporate lobbyists and right-wing politicians and you try to tack those ideas onto an important environmental protest movement, that's when you go from being a harmless idiot to being a dangerous idiot.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 24, 2014)

WE might have already covered this, but is he actively preaching and trying to convert protesters to the truther cult (those that don't already believe)? Does he share the freeman bollocks? 

I find their views borderline racist. There's a nasty jingoistic undercurrent to it all that taps on the zeitgeist of xenophobia in the english psyche these days.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 28, 2014)

http://hulmegreenparty.blogspot.co.uk/2014/03/greater-manchester-police-and-crime.html


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 28, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> WE might have already covered this, but is he actively preaching and trying to convert protesters to the truther cult (those that don't already believe)? Does he share the freeman bollocks?
> 
> I find their views borderline racist. There's a nasty jingoistic undercurrent to it all that taps on the zeitgeist of xenophobia in the english psyche these days.




I have not witnessed IC blur the issues or use BM as a platform for general "truthiness", If you look at "fracking nightmare" shows he doesn't bring other conspiranoid stuff into it - he has other shows for that.

His background in the oil industry gives him solid credibility on fracking and I think he's sincere. I've never sensed any jingoism or xenophobia about him either. He is wrong on climate change, like Awesome - I just don't get their fixation and siding with big oil on that issue.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 28, 2014)

I have


taffboy gwyrdd said:


> I have not witnessed IC blur the issues or use BM as a platform for general "truthiness", If you look at "fracking nightmare" shows he doesn't bring other conspiranoid stuff into it - he has other shows for that.
> 
> His background in the oil industry gives him solid credibility on fracking and I think he's sincere. I've never sensed any jingoism or xenophobia about him either. He is wrong on climate change, like Awesome - I just don't get their fixation and siding with big oil on that issue.


 
Yes, I think - on this issue - he is reliable, which is why i've linked to a couple of his clips.

I watched one of his fracking rpesentations (i can't remember which) on youtube a few months ago, filmed..somewhere (ie an actual presentation to an audience). It was worth watching, but at the end he did touch on the 'green taxes=conspiracy' a bit which annoyed me since it seems cognitive dissonance which won't help people he's compelling to act.


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## Tankus (Mar 28, 2014)

If he does get any traction though , he is mainstream fodder for discrediting the whole issue  because there is so much ammo lying around for  lazy journos to fire on their own mission ......its a pity.....


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 28, 2014)

Must be said that MSM will discredit just about anyone for anything that doesn't go along with their own confirmation biases, conspiracy theories etc. If they don't do it of their own volition they are under constant pressure from the likes of Bell Pottinger and other PR weasles to do so.

While thinking of MSM matters I think it can get a bit much to constantly look over our shoulder what they may say or think.

Remember - local protesters are nimbys. Non locals, rent-a-mob. Richer ones are hyporcrites and poorer ones should get a job.

Put it this way, what if they just decided to attack anti fracking on the basis of what gets said on Urban? Would be a piece of piss to say "look, this is a typical bunch of anti frackers - hanging out in cyberspace with trots and 'narchos"

What's more generally important is to foster mistrust of media among the population, and rejection of their lazy or reactionary narratives. That's not the hardest task either - people are walking away in droves. Too often this is into the arms of more outlandish conspiranoia, who had a head start with all the US based stuff. Left alternative media has still some way to go.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Mar 28, 2014)

You know, giving it some more thought - and I'm only mildly bothered if I get flamed for this - they don't even have to look on Urban or at Ian Cranes work. There's more than a couple of regular protectors who bang on about chemtrails or whatever and "you can stick your New World Order up your arse" is a regular ditty on the walks. I've never sensed any of the bigotry such as anti-semitism that can discredit the CT lot (despite being a preserve of a small and otherwise dubious minority).

"Sorry Ian, could you not put out your detailed and informative bulletins about fracking and awful policing - we don't like something you said about Codex Alimantarius a few years ago"

Or perhaps as people are being brutally assaulted by TAU I could shout out "yeah, I would sympathise and try and drum up attention, but you're into all that Freeman shit"

And various other people - I'm grateful for their dedication and sacrifice. The Barton Moss campaign would be a shadow of itself without them. They're not bigots and I'm happy to debate issues beyond fracking where I disagree with them.

Occupy saw a similar uncomfortable coming together, so did the successful pressure to stop UK being more involved in Syria. It's an issue which isn't going away/ Politics make strange bedfellows.

I would start a fresh thread on this generally, but know I would get flamed by people who think they  know better. Yet if they knew better we would hardly be up the shitstreet we are.


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## teqniq (Apr 2, 2014)

MI5, GMP and the Battle of Barton Moss



> “The mindset of violence within Greater Manchester Police has to come from the very top, from Peter Fahy. He must be instructing his officers to use violence against peaceful protesters.” – Dr Steven Peers, legal observer of Barton Moss Protection Camp.
> 
> “Every officer here today is responsible for their own actions.” – PLO Officer at the scene.
> 
> ...


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> You know, giving it some more thought - and I'm only mildly bothered if I get flamed for this - they don't even have to look on Urban or at Ian Cranes work. There's more than a couple of regular protectors who bang on about chemtrails or whatever and "you can stick your New World Order up your arse" is a regular ditty on the walks. I've never sensed any of the bigotry such as anti-semitism that can discredit the CT lot (despite being a preserve of a small and otherwise dubious minority).
> 
> "Sorry Ian, could you not put out your detailed and informative bulletins about fracking and awful policing - we don't like something you said about Codex Alimantarius a few years ago"
> 
> ...



My opinion of Ian Crane is that he's at Barton Moss precisely so people will write stuff like this about him. He's got a brand and he's using the anti-fracking campaign to promote it. Yes we have to work with all sorts of people if we want to get things done, but climate change deniers are not 'strange bedfellows' of environmentalists, their whole schtick directly undermines environmentalism. To say nothing of the links between climate change denial and even more dangerous rubbish like vaccine denial and anti-semitic conspiraloonery.

If you told someone who had no experience of anti-fracking campaigns that one of the self-proclaimed gurus of the movement is a former oil industry worker who thinks climate change is some giant false-flag conspiracy, their response would most likely be bewildered laughter. And rightly so, I consider Crane's presence at Barton Moss little more than a very bad joke.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 2, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> My opinion of Ian Crane is that he's at Barton Moss precisely so people will write stuff like this about him. He's got a brand and he's using the anti-fracking campaign to promote it. Yes we have to work with all sorts of people if we want to get things done, but climate change deniers are not 'strange bedfellows' of environmentalists, their whole schtick directly undermines environmentalism. To say nothing of the links between climate change denial and even more dangerous rubbish like vaccine denial and anti-semitic conspiraloonery.
> 
> If you told someone who had no experience of anti-fracking campaigns that one of the self-proclaimed gurus of the movement is a former oil industry worker who thinks climate change is some giant false-flag conspiracy, their response would most likely be bewildered laughter. And rightly so, I consider Crane's presence at Barton Moss little more than a very bad joke.


I would love to see this put to him.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I would love to see this put to him.



That would involve talking to him though.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 2, 2014)

Obviously.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'm not convinced by this legal block idea, for the simple fact that the government and the drilling companies are not gonna give a solitary fuck whether or not you want fracking to take place under you house. They don't care when an entire community tells them to get lost, why should they care about one homeowner? The prime minister himself has announced that whatever bit of the UK can be fracked will be fracked, with no mention of what right he or anyone else could possibly have to make such a decision. What more proof do we need that the question of public consent does not enter into the matter?



And sure as night follows day:



> Moves to sweep aside a threatened “legal blockade” against Britain’s first fracking wells are set to be unveiled in the Queen’s Speech.
> 
> Ministers are poised to change trespass laws to allow companies to exploit gas reserves under privately owned land even if the owners object. The change is expected to be included in a proposed Growth Bill, senior government figures say.



From the Times.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

But I guess the same change in the law will make it perfectly fine for me to tunnel under David Cameron's house with a shit ton of toxic chemicals, explosives and radioactive sludge?


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## teqniq (Apr 2, 2014)

One would hope so


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## spring-peeper (Apr 2, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> from the link
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is how it is over here - the government owns everything under the ground.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> That is how it is over here - the government owns everything under the ground.



IIRC a lot of mineral extraction rights in the UK are still owned by big aristocratic estates, even where the land above has long since been sold off. This is the equivalent of selling your car to someone but insisting you have the right to siphon petrol out of the tank whenever you feel like it.


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## laptop (Apr 2, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> But I guess the same change in the law will make it perfectly fine for me to tunnel under David Cameron's house with a shit ton of toxic chemicals, explosives and radioactive sludge?



Changing the law of trespass is always tricky.

"I'm not squatting your warehouse at all. It's all about the mineral rights. Prove they're not mine..."


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 2, 2014)

laptop said:


> Changing the law of trespass is always tricky.



The tricky part will be explaining it to the public without mentioning the truth of the matter; that this change has been demanded by the fracking industry to allow them to proceed despite growing public opposition.

Meanwhile, the tories are plotting to cap output from onshore wind farms, even those already operational or scheduled for construction. Supposedly this deranged idea is intended to appease the cantakerous landed gentry wing of the parlimentary tory party. By happy coincidence such a move will also scare off potential investors in wind power and leave the way clear for Cameron and Osbourne's chums in the gas industry to step in and plug the hole in the UK's energy supply. Fracking isn't cost effective enough, clean enough or sustainable enough to be viable on an open market so the dice must be loaded against renewable energy generation in order to justify it. 

So now we're being told that we all think wind farms are an eyesore, and we would all much prefer to look out of our kitchen windows at a 40 foot drilling rig while drinking ethylene glycol and depleted uranium. By yet another mysterious coincidence all the shale gas and coal bed methane extraction operations currently taking place in the UK are in the north where tory voters are few and far between.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> But I guess the same change in the law will make it perfectly fine for me to tunnel under David Cameron's house with a shit ton of toxic chemicals, explosives and radioactive sludge?


It probably would, but of course no fucking company would want to. 

This is very depressing.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> The tricky part will be explaining it to the public without mentioning the truth of the matter; that this change has been demanded by the fracking industry to allow them to proceed despite growing public opposition.
> 
> Meanwhile, the tories are plotting to cap output from onshore wind farms, even those already operational or scheduled for construction. Supposedly this deranged idea is intended to appease the cantakerous landed gentry wing of the parlimentary tory party. By happy coincidence such a move will also scare off potential investors in wind power and leave the way clear for Cameron and Osbourne's chums in the gas industry to step in and plug the hole in the UK's energy supply. Fracking isn't cost effective enough, clean enough or sustainable enough to be viable on an open market so the dice must be loaded against renewable energy generation in order to justify it.
> 
> So now we're being told that we all think wind farms are an eyesore, and we would all much prefer to look out of our kitchen windows at a 40 foot drilling rig while drinking ethylene glycol and depleted uranium. By yet another mysterious coincidence all the shale gas and coal bed methane extraction operations currently taking place in the UK are in the north where tory voters are few and far between.


Isn't Balcombe Maude's constituency?

By limiting output, they can then dismiss wind farms as ineffective. A self fulfilling prophecy they will probably then blame Labour for, again.

There really is a tedious predictability to our politics.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> By limiting output, they can then dismiss wind farms as ineffective.



But the bit I don't understand is how they can possibly justify limiting output from existing generation capacity, even to wind farm haters who I suspect are much rarer than the tories would have us believe. Their intention is clear, to sabotage competition for the fossil fuel and nuclear industries and probably drive up consumer energy prices into the bargain. What I don't understand is how they can spin this as something that will in any way benefit the public, the environment or UK energy security.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

The noise has persisted for long enough that the message is heard: windfarms are wasteful and unsightly. They keep saying this, but rarely is the obvious point put forward, that the alternatives are this and a thousand times more so.
Of course in order to make that argument one has to buy into the criticism of windfards above, which is a mistake.

This is the tory tactic: just blanket people/scare them by repeating the lie and people will believe you. 

I've never once, for example, heard anyone put to James Delingtwat that they'd rather live next to a windfarm than a fracking well.


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## cantsin (Apr 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> The noise has persisted for long enough that the message is heard: windfarms are wasteful and unsightly. They keep saying this, but rarely is the obvious point put forward, that the alternatives are this and a thousand times more so.
> Of course in order to make that argument one has to buy into the criticism of windfards above, which is a mistake.
> 
> This is the tory tactic: just blanket people/scare them by repeating the lie and people will believe you.
> ...



am no expert, but isnt it scientifically proven that tidal energy is potentially by far the most efficient alt.energy source for a low wind, Island country ?


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## Tankus (Apr 3, 2014)

The nuclear industry seems to think so ....which is why they fudged the decimal point on the economic projections of the Salter duck....


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

It may well be! I'm all for investigating it (though i've heard that on the River Severn it might damage wildlife habitats, i'm sure that can be mitigated if true).

Ridiculous how we are still so wedded to big oil/gas.

Now those filthy eurcrats from Das Brussels want to make our godfearing british electric cars a little noisier so scrounging blind folk (fucking lazy dog owning thieves) don't have to worry about stepping in front of them. Thank God our Nigel is opposing these continental spendaholic hedonists.


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## Tankus (Apr 3, 2014)

Why a full barrage ? Just a minor restriction to neck it and just some open turbines in the gap...?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 3, 2014)

Tidal lagoons are an interesting idea, and would probably be less damaging to ecosystems than a barrage. And the tidal lagoon project planned for Swansea would only take a couple of years to build.

Of course the Bristol Channel is already graced by nuclear power plants on both it's north and south coast, so clearly nobody is that bothered about the wildlife in the area.


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## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've never once, for example, heard anyone put to James Delingtwat that they'd rather live next to a windfarm than a fracking well.



Strangely enough, I prefer to live near a fracking well than a wind farm.   

The fracking will eventually contaminate my drinking well, but the noise from the wind mills would drive me insane.



Fortunately, I will never have to decide.   THERE WILL BE NOT FRACKING IN MY AREA, and the people around here are finally figuring out that the wind mills are a waste of money.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> Strangely enough, I prefer to live near a fracking well than a wind farm.
> 
> The fracking will eventually contaminate my drinking well, but the noise from the wind mills would drive me insane.
> 
> ...


Because of course fracking is a silent process using feathers and kittens


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## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Because of course fracking is a silent process using feathers and kittens




I can't handle the constant air pressure changes that windmills produce.  I'm highly sensitive to things like that.  I've been near windmills, I know what that is like.

I've never been near fracking (it's basically illegal in these parts).  Do fracking distort the air pressure?


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 3, 2014)

Well they distort the air...


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## spring-peeper (Apr 3, 2014)

With sound waves...


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## Tankus (Apr 4, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> Strangely enough, I prefer to live near a fracking well than a wind farm.
> 
> The fracking will eventually contaminate my drinking well, but the noise from the wind mills would drive me insane.
> 
> ...


Hmm
Its a good job the piercing noise from the high pressure diesel pumps would be drowned out by the thousand HGV' s or more , 24/7. otherwise you would have not got any sleep ....whatsoever .....then there is the stink.....


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 4, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> I can't handle the constant air pressure changes that windmills produce.  I'm highly sensitive to things like that.  I've been near windmills, I know what that is like.


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## mwgdrwg (Apr 4, 2014)

Thing is, in places where they put these things it's never an either/or situation. It's all of it. For example, on Anglesey we have a Nuclear power station (soon to get another), biogas plants, onshore wind-farms, and soon...the world's biggest offshore wind-farm.

If only having one was an option.


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## 8ball (Apr 4, 2014)

spring-peeper said:


> I can't handle the constant air pressure changes that windmills produce.  I'm highly sensitive to things like that.  I've been near windmills, I know what that is like.


 
I've not head of this (I'm pretty sensitive to changes in air pressure but not been especially close to a wind turbine).
Technically there is a pressure drop at the rotors and to a lesser extent behind the turbine  generally, but I wouldn't expect any rhythmic pressure differences to propagate very far.

How close do you need to be?

edit:  just been reading about infrasound around and below 1Hz- that seems to go _really_ far.  But oddly, because it goes so far you'd be expecting people a really long way from the wind farms to be affected too, and that would make the effects really hard to separate from other things.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 4, 2014)

8ball said:


> edit:  just been reading about infrasound around and below 1Hz- that seems to go _really_ far.  But oddly, because it goes so far you'd be expecting people a really long way from the wind farms to be affected too, and that would make the effects really hard to separate from other things.



We need some controlled studies of these phenomena. Basically round up a bunch of people who are sensitive to the vibrations or air pressure changes from wind turbines and drive them blindfolded to an undisclosed location which may or may not be anywhere near a wind farm. Then guage the accuracy with which they are able to discern their proximity or otherwise to wind turbines using only their purported sixth senses.


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## laptop (Apr 4, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> We need some controlled studies of these phenomena. Basically round up a bunch of people who are sensitive to the vibrations or air pressure changes from wind turbines and drive them blindfolded to an undisclosed location which may or may not be anywhere near a wind farm. Then guage the accuracy with which they are able to discern their proximity or otherwise to wind turbines using only their purported sixth senses.



And an equal number who've never claimed sensitivity...


----------



## 8ball (Apr 4, 2014)

member: 1033 said:
			
		

> And an equal number who've never claimed sensitivity...



Definitely.  Could do similar with those living near fracking sites.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 4, 2014)

laptop said:


> And an equal number who've never claimed sensitivity...



Quite right too. Control group, very important.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 5, 2014)

How about we 

a) don't build windfarms _right _next to people's houses, which I can't imagine happens anway since they need to be in exposed windy places. Not everyone lives in Wuthering Heights surely.

b) don't frack.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 15, 2014)

Well, the Barton Moss protestors are packing up their camp today. Several more protests have sprung up at several more sites in the meantime though. 

http://www.retfordtimes.co.uk/Anti-...drilling-rig/story-20959588-detail/story.html

...today a drilling rig in Nottinghamshire has been scaled and occupied for over eight hours. Elsewhere a site earmarked for fracking near Chester has been pre-emptively occupied to prevent any work from starting. More potential drilling sites are being revealed pretty much every day, it's gonna be a long year for the anti-fracking campaign.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 16, 2014)

Why are they leaving? Have they been evicted or has the exploratory stuff stopped?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 16, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Why are they leaving? Have they been evicted or has the exploratory stuff stopped?



The drilling has stopped, for the time being at any rate. The next eviction hearing had been set for (IIRC) July 26th so I guess those proceedings will not be going ahead.

iGas need to go and get another license if they want to carry on drilling at Barton Moss. But with the prime minister loudly singing the praises of the fracking industry that's unlikely to be a problem. There is even talk of allowing fracking companies to proceed without proper environmental impact assesments, although considering how easy it is to fudge or simply disregard the findings of an EIA I suppose we might as well abandon the pretence.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 17, 2014)

Of course they will get the license. All these people will get what they want; councils need money/don't care and government are chomping at the bit to impress their yank chums by handing out licenses. It looks like the only thing tha will stop this is when people's houses run out of clean water, fall into earthquakes, or people start choking because the air is so shit. Even then the authorities will deny there's any problem. We will count the cost when it's too late, like climate change.


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 28, 2014)

The camp at Barton Moss is all gone now and the site has been tidied up nicely. 

Meanwhile two activists have been in court today, charged with threatening to kill iGas security guards. I was with one of the defendants at the time of the alleged offence and he was maybe quarter of a mile from the nearest security guard, which the police knew all too well because they'd had to go looking for him in order to arrest him. Unsurprisingly the prosecution didn't even present any evidence against him. 

The second defendant did actually have a trial but he's now been found not guilty.


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## Tankus (Apr 28, 2014)

Where did the " produced water" get dumped to in the end ?


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2014)

Tankus said:


> Where did the " produced water" get dumped to in the end ?



Well according to iGas they were just doing exploratory drilling so there wasn't any actual fracking going on and so no produced water. 

Presumably the dozen or so tankers entering and leaving the site every day were just bringing in nice hot tea for the workers.

In the past this stuff has been dumped straight into the Manchester ship canal, which coincidentally is owned by the same company who own the Barton Moss site, Peel Holdings.


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## Awesome Wells (May 7, 2014)

I hadn't considered what those tankers might have been doing!


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## laptop (May 7, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I hadn't considered what those tankers might have been doing!



Drilling of any kind will need a supply of "mud" - the mixture forced down the hole to cool and lubricate the drill bit and wash out the bits it chews off the rock.

"Mud" is a fairly complex brew of chemicals... probably more so than the fracking fluid, though maybe less of it. I have no idea whether they'd get through a dozen tankers a day.


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## Tankus (May 8, 2014)

this is really excellent and worth a watch if mildly interested
[youtube]
fracking 101 by one of the guys who developed it

_""""Cornell University professor Anthony Ingraffea spoke at Luzerne County Community College in Nanticoke, Pennsylvania late in 2010.

Ingraffea speaks from the viewpoint of scientific, technological and engineering fact.

This is an excellent overview of the drilling and fracking process from a very well respected professional in the educational field.""""_


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## SpookyFrank (May 9, 2014)

Three more cases against Barton Moss arrestees have been dismissed today, one of whom has been on remand for a couple of months for reasons nobody can begin to fathom. As far as I know so far only one charge from Barton Moss has actually made it all the way to trial, and the verdict was not guilty. 

With over a hundred more of these cases in the pipeline, GMP are gonna start looking very silly indeed if somebody doesn't get found guilty of something.


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## Pickman's model (May 9, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> With over a hundred more of these cases in the pipeline, GMP are gonna start looking very silly indeed if somebody doesn't get found guilty of something.


this being the gmp it's probably going to be one of their officers.


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## DaveCinzano (May 24, 2014)

Steven Peers arrested on suspicion of_ impersonating a police officer_...









> ...Father-of-four Mr Peers was held in custody for eight hours before being bailed until July – while the outfit was confiscated.
> 
> He said: “My reaction to being arrested was total disbelief. I was wearing a toy hat and a pig mask and was arrested for impersonating a police officer. It’s ridiculous.
> 
> ...



http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...ers-pig-mask-man-7166213#.U4A_nC6l6Hs.twitter



The gallery is hilarious. But what's with pixelating the “G.M.P.” on the toy helmet?


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## SpookyFrank (May 24, 2014)

In defence of GMP, that Steven Peers is a first class idiot and if I was able to arrest him I probably would.


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## SpookyFrank (May 24, 2014)

Today a bloke from Crawberry Hill anti fracking camp in Humberside was arrested in Beverley for singing, 'you can stick your new world order up your arse' through a large PA system in the centre of town. It would be interesting to know what he thought was going to happen, what with several coppers waiting ten yards away for an excuse to arrest him at the time. Bonus PR points to the people yelling 'fascist scum' at the top of their lungs as the guy was taken away, and especially the guy who repeatedly yelled, 'if you come to Crawberry Hill you'll regret it' which is exactly the sort of thing the police fucking love you to say, espcially on a video which you yourself then upload to the internet.

After a long winter spent amid the misery and violence of Barton Moss, many of these people (and some of them are very good friends of mine) appear to have gone feral. With any attempt to appeal to the general public for support you've got to put yourself in the shoes of some ordinary passer by who doesn't know much about the issue and probably has other things to be thinking about. Imagine you see a bunch of dishevelled lunatics screaming abuse at coppers and ask yourself if you'd be interested in what they had to say.

I understand how good the coppers are at getting this type of response by being needlessly officious and cruel in the first place but there's a reason they do it. If the coppers want a reaction, don't give them one. No amount of shouting will convince them to let your mate go, but it might alienate a dozen ordinary people looking on. It'll also fill you up with enough bile to ruin the rest of your day and stop you doing the productive stuff you want to be doing.

This is the same group of people who have excommunicated other anti-fracking groups and protest camps for even talking to police officers, regardless of what was said or why they said it. I'm concerned that their treatment at the hands of GMP in recent months has had exactly the effect the police wanted, namely to make them so single-minded and so black and white in their thinking that they're not able to make sensible decisions about how they present themselves and their cause to the world. It's all very sad and I'm not sure what can be done about it.


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## ddraig (Oct 8, 2014)

GMP shown up for idiots again, not knowing the law
private road, can't be done for obstructing highway!
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...-protestor-cleared-obstructing-police-7896194


> Police arrested Mr Henesy on the basis that his refusal to unlock himself meant he was obstructing their efforts to safely move the bus - which officers believed was ‘obstructing a highway’. Mr Henesy was later charged and convicted in his absence.
> 
> However, it later emerged that Barton Moss Road is actually a private road, which means police had no duty to move the bus on. A Manchester Crown Court appeal of conviction heard the inspector tasked with moving the bus on had been given incorrect legal advice.
> 
> Richard Brigden, defending Mr Henesy, said: “There’s no duty in law to remove an obstruction, under the Highways Act, on a private road. Would you not think it an absolute farce for an officer to get the law wrong, and you then to be charged with obstructing him, because you ignored his erroneous order?”


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2014)

A lot of the Barton Moss cases are being quietly dropped a few days before they're due to go to trial. Those that are going to trial are mostly going badly for GMP. One bunch were found guilty and then, in a very unusual decision from the judge, discharged with no punishment or conditions at all. Even they are planning to appeal against their guilty verdicts. 

When all the cases against protestors have been dealt with, then will come the legal actions against the police. A big class action case is already being put together and that's going to be worth keeping an eye on.


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## laptop (Oct 8, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> A big class action case is already being put together and that's going to be worth keeping an eye on.




* books hotel in Strasbourg for April 2021 *


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 8, 2014)

ddraig said:


> GMP shown up for idiots again, not knowing the law
> private road, can't be done for obstructing highway!
> http://www.manchestereveningnews.co...-protestor-cleared-obstructing-police-7896194



Some Rumpole-esque lyrical flourishes from the defence lawyer there


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 24, 2016)

Some official recognition of the systematic mistreatment of women by GMP at Barton Moss:

Police 'used sexualised violence against fracking protesters'



> Dr William Jackson, a criminologist at John Moores, said allegations of sexual impropriety by police was one of the first things protesters reported. “We conducted a series of interviews with both male and female protesters and one of the things which came out was what was referred to by a number of women as inappropriate behaviour towards women,” he said. According to protesters, this ranged from sexist language and harassment through to physical and sexual threats.
> 
> The report quotes one protester as saying: “A lot of the time it is women on the front line, but not only that we’ve noticed officers specifically targeting women for violence, they’ve inappropriately touched them, groped them. I’ve been inappropriately touched.
> 
> “Every single woman on the front line has had some kind of inappropriate physical contact with an officer… sometimes their hand will just go up way too high. Somebody had their breast groped.”



I think I've already written on this about my experiences of police targetting women. The police will no doubt say that they recieved no official complaints about any such inappropriate conduct, while failing to mention that the police never deal with reports of criminal activity by police officers as a criminal matter only a disciplinary one, if that.


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## kingfisher (Feb 24, 2016)

SpookyFrank said:


> Today a bloke from Crawberry Hill anti fracking camp in Humberside was arrested in Beverley for singing, 'you can stick your new world order up your arse' through a large PA system in the centre of town. It would be interesting to know what he thought was going to happen, what with several coppers waiting ten yards away for an excuse to arrest him at the time. Bonus PR points to the people yelling 'fascist scum' at the top of their lungs as the guy was taken away, and especially the guy who repeatedly yelled, 'if you come to Crawberry Hill you'll regret it' which is exactly the sort of thing the police fucking love you to say, espcially on a video which you yourself then upload to the internet.
> 
> After a long winter spent amid the misery and violence of Barton Moss, many of these people (and some of them are very good friends of mine) appear to have gone feral. With any attempt to appeal to the general public for support you've got to put yourself in the shoes of some ordinary passer by who doesn't know much about the issue and probably has other things to be thinking about. Imagine you see a bunch of dishevelled lunatics screaming abuse at coppers and ask yourself if you'd be interested in what they had to say.
> 
> ...





thats who your talking about in it , note the reps of esteemd orgs COPS, Clapton Ultras ,NO DASH 4 GAS  Green BLack Cross amongst others - having been on the wrong side of this ,(HINT HINT ITS ALL SPIES FAM) the attempts to get a rise when you try and get the charges outlined to you and this is rejected, im not sure what daz nez did (though i believe he was questioning the climate camp-occupy- reclaim the power - nexus - but there you go SPIES SPIES SPIES SPI(ES - last i saw this fella was bashing out flat earth stufff, (though he didnt believe it , he was just tapped up by another alphabet agency wasnt he _)


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