# Coming to Brixton: anti-abortion protests



## el-ahrairah (Aug 16, 2012)

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...s-step-up-prayer-vigils-despite-legal-threat/

In September some loons are going to be targetting Marie Stopes in Brixton again.  With any luck we can send them packing.  If anyone hears of the actual date they'llbe here let us know


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

I used to give them a piece of my mind when they were outside BPAS in Bedord sq. 

Saw some ( not sure if its same group) outside Marie Stopes in West End (Cleveland street). They are out there praying with there rosaries. Its all Catholics in this country. They can fuck off. As I told them.

The ones in UK are part of "40 days for Life" that started in US of fucking A. Home of religious nutters.

http://www.40daysforlife.com/blog/

Here its dominated by Catholics. Not so in US. 

There whole thing is to set up long vigils and try to get places to close down. Its a form of intimidation. Fair enough its a free country. So I am free to go and tell these fuckers to fuck off. Id advise any one to do the same. They really do not like it. Its why they started filming people.


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## geminisnake (Aug 16, 2012)

Oh please let it be while I'm down!! I detest those narrow minded twats!!


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## nagapie (Aug 16, 2012)

I have shouted abuse at the ones outside Marie Stopes on Brixton Hill, with my son in his pushchair by my side. But it doesn't really deter them. I'd like to do something more if they are coming. Wonder how one finds out their location dates...


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...s-step-up-prayer-vigils-despite-legal-threat/
> 
> In September some loons are going to be targetting Marie Stopes in Brixton again. With any luck we can send them packing. If anyone hears of the actual date they'llbe here let us know


 
Yes its on website 26th September to November 4. Does not say where. You have to sign up to website to find out that.
http://www.40daysforlife.com/london/index.cfm?active=1

Also Catholic Herald does its bit by having a go at Guardian readers and The Royal Mail.

http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/com...er-a-mad-world-or-what/#.UCDDTi6qAJY.facebook

Stope is a racist anti semite and anti Catholic according to them. Whilst I assume those in the vigil in Whitfield street are defenders of human rights.


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

From El-ahrairah first post they are extending there vigils from Whitfield street to Brixton. Looks like should start on 26th September.

Address of Marie Stopes Brixton is 1a Raleigh Gardens Brixton Hill
​Cant wait. These people think they can have the success of the anti abortion movement in US. I hate them. This is not USA.

Nor is this doing Catholics a lot of good either. I have friends from Poland where the Catholic church has a lot of influence. So Ive heard all about there malign influence on Polish society. Why some of my Polish friends like this country. Give the Catholic church an inch and they will take a mile.


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## ajdown (Aug 16, 2012)

Never mind "not going Catholics a lot of good", it doesn't necessarily reflect well on Christianity as a whole either.


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I have shouted abuse at the ones outside Marie Stopes on Brixton Hill, with my son in his pushchair by my side. But it doesn't really deter them. I'd like to do something more if they are coming. Wonder how one finds out their location dates...


 
Well done. They hate it. 

40 days for life conducts a peaceful, prayerful and legal vigil in London. The central point of our vigil is to pray for an end to abortion and show that that is a love in community that can help a woman to choose life for her unborn child. Since our campaign started in September 2010, we estimate that more than 30 women have chosen life for their unborn children as a result of our campaign through prayer and also through an offer of love, help and support during a difficult time.
We have a statement of peace that sets the tone and ethos of our prayer vigil as a peaceful and prayerful event. Since our campaign started, we have received a very large number of insults and threats.  At times, members of the vigil have filmed themselves in order to protect themselves from these threats. We do not encourage anybody to film members of the public during our campaign.
http://40daysforlifelondon.blogspot.co.uk/
this is by Robert Colquhoun, Campaign Director, 40 days for life London. 
He is on FB if you want to check him out. He is right wing Catholic
https://www.facebook.com/robert.colquhoun


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Never mind "not going Catholics a lot of good", it doesn't necessarily reflect well on Christianity as a whole either.


 
Really? I do not have problems with Quakers for example . Catholic church in this country was and is socially conservative . So it can fuck off as far as Im concerned. This is not Catholic country.


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## newbie (Aug 16, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Well done. They hate it.


 
nah, they just tell you they'll pray for you.

I don't really get this though, there's regularly one or more loons outside the place on BH.  Are they going to turn up mob handed?


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## Gramsci (Aug 16, 2012)

newbie said:


> nah, they just tell you they'll pray for you.
> 
> I don't really get this though, there's regularly one or more loons outside the place on BH. Are they going to turn up mob handed?


 
Depends on how forthright one is with ones opinions. I dont think they prayed for me. The more passers by who give them a hard time the better. This does not happen in USA. I think the level of abuse set them back a bit. Which is why they complain about it.

They ask for it. I think it was a mistake of Stopes to go down the legal road. I think Stopes should ask people to tell them (peacefully and politely) why they think they are right wing religious bigots  abortion should be on demand.


If it is anything like Bedford sq (BPAS) was like then yes they will be "mob handed". Depending on time of day. Some days there were 8 of them with banners and models of foetus.

The ones at Whitfield street (Stopes) , there now on regular basis, have increased. They put up religious pictures and kneel with there rosary beads praying etc whilst outside Stopes a couple of others offer "help" to those going in.


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## joustmaster (Aug 16, 2012)

Shouldn't it be abortion protest.
anti abortion protest is the opposite.

Also, someone should go beat these cunts with long shitty sticks


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## nagapie (Aug 17, 2012)

How much 'abuse' can one give without getting arrested? Can one for instance tear up their posters?


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## ajdown (Aug 17, 2012)

Every time I've been past on the bus and seen them there, there's usually several police standing with them, so if you do plan any sort of 'counter protest' or 'direct action' against them, do be careful.


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## BigTom (Aug 17, 2012)

nagapie said:


> How much 'abuse' can one give without getting arrested? Can one for instance tear up their posters?



They could nick you for Criminal damage, or possibly violent disorder or a similar charge, depending on the circumstances.
Would depend on whether the police wanted to arrest you or not really and exactly how it happened.
If you just walked past, saw them went over, ripped a poster then walked on it'd be less likely than if there was a counter demo happening or you hung around shouting at them


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 17, 2012)

Rotten eggs and tomatoes at the ready.....


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

40 days of life? All their parents should have allowed these bigots


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Every time I've been past on the bus and seen them there, there's usually several police standing with them, so if you do plan any sort of 'counter protest' or 'direct action' against them, do be careful.


 
I used to live opposite there and i never saw any coppers standing there when they were out/marching up the hill..? They're a very difficult crowd to avoid walking up to and telling them they're the best advert for post-natal abortion in existence. Never got stopped doing so.

We also have them around where i work - they stand outside marie stopes and hassle young lasses on their way in. As if they don't have enough on their minds. Utter utter cunts.


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## Badgers (Aug 17, 2012)

Clarify the law here.. 

Someone is walking down the road carrying an open can of red gloss paint. They are passing the religious cunt protest and trip over spilling the paint all over the cunts. Is there grounds for the paint carrier to be prosecuted?


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## BigTom (Aug 17, 2012)

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1971/48/section/1
Criminal Damage law:



> Destroying or damaging property.
> 
> (1)
> A person who without lawful excuse destroys or damages any property belonging to another intending to destroy or damage any such property or being reckless as to whether any such property would be destroyed or damaged shall be guilty of an offence.
> ...


 
So if it was considered that you were being reckless by walking down the street with an open can of paint, then yes you could still be prosecuted for criminal damage, even if it was genuinely accidental. So you'd need to be able to show a good reason for the can to have been open at that point I think, or it could/would be considered criminal damage.


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## Badgers (Aug 17, 2012)

So there would be a margin for doubt?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 17, 2012)

I need to buy some flour from tesco and I am so very clumsy


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## Badgers (Aug 17, 2012)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I need to buy some flour from tesco and I am so very clumsy



Get it from the market and save a few pence


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## BigTom (Aug 17, 2012)

Badgers said:


> So there could be a margin for doubt?


 
In the situation you are describing I really think you'd need to come up with a pretty good reason why the can of paint was open, I wouldn't consider it usual to walk around the streets with an open can of paint.
If, however, like OU is suggesting, you were coming back from a nearby shop with some flour, having decided not to take a bag for environmental reasons (after all, you have hands), heading home to make a cake, and fell over, covering them in  flour, then I think there would be margin for doubt. It is hardly reckless to bring home food, and I would say rather responsible to do so without using bags wherever possible.

I'm not sure I'd particularly want to stand up in court and claim I tripped accidentally though, lol


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## nagapie (Aug 17, 2012)

Let's just all give them a mass shouting at.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

they could get tarred and feathered and play a part in some sort of modern political street theatre.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

i can make quite a good pitch for that


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## ajdown (Aug 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i can make quite a good pitch for that


 
Ready Brek and black poster paint would probably suffice.  Just might be difficult explaining why you're carrying a bucketful in the street.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Ready Brek and black poster paint would probably suffice. Just might be difficult explaining why you're carrying a bucketful in the street.


i wouldn't be carrying a bucketful after i got to the demonstration


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 17, 2012)

What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


how hot would the water be?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

or you could use supercooled brine 

fucking send 'em scurrying


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## gabi (Aug 17, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


 
My ex-flatmate on brixton rd used to piss out the window on the Nation of Islam guys. They didn't like it but he he never got busted afaik.


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## geminisnake (Aug 17, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


 
Rather than buckets of water get a bunch of folk with super soakers, you are merely horsing around, oh look oops we've soaked some bigots!!


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## ajdown (Aug 17, 2012)

Drive-by squirting...?  Or I guess you'd be better on bikes as there's no numberplate to trace.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

ajdown said:


> Drive-by squirting...? Or I guess you'd be better on bikes as there's no numberplate to trace.


no survivors = no witnesses


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## harpo (Aug 17, 2012)

http://www.videobash.com/video_show/anti-abortion-protesters-get-run-over-243879


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## Pickman's model (Aug 17, 2012)

harpo said:


> http://www.videobash.com/video_show/anti-abortion-protesters-get-run-over-243879


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## joustmaster (Aug 17, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


freeze it before you throw it


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## Winot (Aug 17, 2012)

BigTom said:


> I'm not sure I'd particularly want to stand up in court and claim I tripped accidentally though, lol



It certainly wouldn't pass the 'red face test'.


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## CH1 (Aug 18, 2012)

gabi said:


> My ex-flatmate on brixton rd used to piss out the window on the Nation of Islam guys. They didn't like it but he he never got busted afaik.


I think he obviously had no dress sense then. The Nation of Islam have proved a boon to the manufacturers and purveyors of bow ties. They suffer from the American black nightmare - burning crosses at dawn. Lynchings within living memory. Your "friend" should be more tolerant IMHO. Or did he have the obverse side of the American nightmare? The uncontrollable urge to burn crosses and lynch?
If so see if he could displace that onto an annual pilgrimage to Lewes Bonfire Night


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## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2012)

They're nasty intolerant bigots, CH1


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## Greebo (Aug 18, 2012)

CH1 said:


> I think he obviously had no dress sense then. The Nation of Islam have proved a boon to the manufacturers and purveyors of bow ties. They suffer from the American black nightmare - burning crosses at dawn. Lynchings within living memory.<snip>


Which of course, excuses members of the NOI turning their own ethnic identity group against every other, not to mention spouting such racist tripe as all white people are devils.


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## Red Racer (Aug 20, 2012)

http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfr...of-life-vigils?cat=commentisfree&type=article


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Yes its on website 26th September to November 4. Does not say where. You have to sign up to website to find out that.
> http://www.40daysforlife.com/london/index.cfm?active=1
> 
> Also Catholic Herald does its bit by having a go at Guardian readers and The Royal Mail.
> ...


 
Marie Stopes supported eugenics and was a product of her class, her time and her environment as far as anti-Semitism went. So far, so ordinary. That a Catholic newspaper attempts to obfuscate the importance of Stopes' work by drawing attention to her personal prejudices, as if they invalidate her work, is indicative of the Catholic Herald knowing that they've got nothing worth saying about the core business of the Marie Stopes clinics.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I need to buy some flour from tesco and I am so very clumsy


 
You could perform a Norman Wisdom tribute dance that would enhance your clumsiness.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 20, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> What about throwing buckets of water on them? Or could that be considered assault?


 
I was just keeping them cool in the hot summer sun, ossifer!


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## Pickman's model (Aug 20, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I was just keeping them cool in the hot summer sun, ossifer!


Someone had set them alight and I was putting them out


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## Orang Utan (Aug 20, 2012)

I like the idea of ridiculing the protesters with witty signs like they do in America at Tea Party/anti-healthcare protests


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## kittyP (Aug 20, 2012)

Red Racer said:


> http://m.guardian.co.uk/commentisfr...of-life-vigils?cat=commentisfree&type=article


 
I started a thread about this kind of action a while ago. 
I think it's a pretty good idea. 

I think I would be more inclined to go and quietly stand with my own placard stating "Every one has the right to choose life because the have the right to choose" and "destroying the right to legal abortion is both socially and physically damaging to society" or something wittier. 
I just can't do the aggressive stuff. 
Not saying I would mind if anyone else did though


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## kittyP (Aug 20, 2012)

http://uk.virginmoneygiving.com/fun...tion?userUrl=boycott40daysforlife&isTeam=true


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## Gramsci (Aug 20, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Marie Stopes supported eugenics and was a product of her class, her time and her environment as far as anti-Semitism went. So far, so ordinary. That a Catholic newspaper attempts to obfuscate the importance of Stopes' work by drawing attention to her personal prejudices, as if they invalidate her work, is indicative of the Catholic Herald knowing that they've got nothing worth saying about the core business of the Marie Stopes clinics.


 
Exactly the same point was made to be by a friend of mine down the pub today. Ur correct.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Exactly the same point was made to be by a friend of mine down the pub today. Ur correct.


 
What annoys me is the contempt that the Herald must have for its readership. I don't know who edits it currently, but this slide into propagandising Vatican policy and treating the readership like eejits started under Odone, and what is really rank is that the Herald at one time had a fairly progressive readership and would publish thought-provoking and probing pieces on the Church. Nowadays it kisses arse.


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## Pat24 (Aug 30, 2012)

About a month ago, I saw a man outside the entrance with a rosary in his hands, doing what seemed to me like praying. I was mystified but kept walking past him. Then I remembered that's the abortion clinic!


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## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2012)

Pat24 said:


> About a month ago, I saw a man outside the entrance with a rosary in his hands, doing what seemed to me like praying. I was mystified but kept walking past him. Then I remembered that's the abortion clinic!


is a rosary long enough to hang yourself with? being an atheist i am unfamiliar with these things.


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## Pat24 (Aug 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> is a rosary long enough to hang yourself with? being an atheist i am unfamiliar with these things.


 
It's enough to put it around someone's neck and strangle them fo' sure.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2012)

Pat24 said:


> It's enough to put it around someone's neck and strangle them fo' sure.


weren't you tempted to help him start going through purgatory early?


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## 8ball (Aug 30, 2012)

Ok, bunging the cat amongst the pigeons, maybe, but has anyone here ever tried actually engaging these people in conversation.

Shouting at them, throwing things etc. is going to harden attitudes in exactly the same way as when young teens get kettled on a peaceful process.
I've changed minds in conversation with others, and also had my own mind changed.  At worst you'll just be wasting your time rather than entrenching their resolve.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 30, 2012)

8ball said:


> Ok, bunging the cat amongst the pigeons, maybe, but has anyone here ever tried actually engaging these people in conversation.
> 
> Shouting at them, throwing things etc. is going to harden attitudes in exactly the same way as when young teens get kettled on a peaceful process.
> I've changed minds in conversation with others, and also had my own mind changed. At worst you'll just be wasting your time rather than entrenching their resolve.


you can't argue with people who think they have god on their side. the wrath of the righteous is the only language they understand.


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## Orang Utan (Aug 30, 2012)

I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .


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## 8ball (Aug 30, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you can't argue with people who think they have god on their side. the wrath of the righteous is the only language they understand.


 
No, you can.

You never know at the time, unless you get to know them, but you can plant seeds and sometimes they'll think later about what you said.
In my experience people who are religious are no less rational than non-religious people.  Sometimes they're more aware of when they're letting go of rationality, so can be more amenable to reason than someone who thinks all their opinions have come from their reasoning rather than their experiences and emotional responses to them.


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## kittyP (Aug 30, 2012)

Did you see my posts on the previous page 8ball?


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## smmudge (Aug 30, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> This is not USA.


 

You're right.  If this was the USA we might actually have a decent pro-choice movement, doctors who perform abortions because that's what they actually want to do, and a hell of a lot more funding for abortion research.



ViolentPanda said:


> Marie Stopes supported eugenics and was a product of her class, her time and her environment as far as anti-Semitism went. So far, so ordinary. That a Catholic newspaper attempts to obfuscate the importance of Stopes' work by drawing attention to her personal prejudices, as if they invalidate her work, is indicative of the Catholic Herald knowing that they've got nothing worth saying about the core business of the Marie Stopes clinics.


 
Which is funny because there are plenty of criticisms to be levelled at the the way Marie Stopes clinics are run.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2012)

smmudge said:


> Which is funny because there are plenty of criticisms to be levelled at the the way Marie Stopes clinics are run.


 
_The Herald_ wouldn't interested in that, though, because criticising structural and organisational faults of an organisation doesn't have quite the same appeal as spouting emotive claptrap to an increasingly-partisan readership. I'm not saying the C.H. is a latter-day _Der Stuermer_, but it has become more and more of a conservative Catholic mouthpiece for the Vatican over the last decade or so, which is a shame.


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## 8ball (Aug 31, 2012)

kittyP said:


> Did you see my posts on the previous page 8ball?


 
Yes.  Interesting tactic.


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## smmudge (Aug 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> _The Herald_ wouldn't interested in that, though, because criticising structural and organisational faults of an organisation doesn't have quite the same appeal as spouting emotive claptrap to an increasingly-partisan readership.


 
Yes quite, and criticising the worst policies of Marie Stopes only backs up the pro-choice stance which I don't think is their (CH's) aim in any case.


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .


 
FFS. N of I are really crap. See them on Brixton road quite often.


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

smmudge said:


> You're right. If this was the USA we might actually have a decent pro-choice movement, doctors who perform abortions because that's what they actually want to do, and a hell of a lot more funding for abortion research.


 
If I was a doctor I reckon Id rather do abortions here than US. Abortion, unless this lot get there way, is not an election issue here.


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## Boppity (Aug 31, 2012)

Twats. Makes me so fucking mad, as if it isn't difficult enough.


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## smmudge (Aug 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> If I was a doctor I reckon Id rather do abortions here than US. Abortion, unless this lot get there way, is not an election issue here.


 
Yes the anti-abortion movement is more active in the States but so is the pro-choice movement.  So you'd have to deal with the nutters in the States, but here you have a pervasive and unspoken sense of shame that goes largely uncontested.


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## Plumdaff (Aug 31, 2012)

I'd rather have a pervasive sense of shame than a vaginal ultrasound which is what women have to go through in some states. I'm not one for hair trigger anti Americanism, but we really do have it much better over here. It's Handmaid's Tale stuff in large areas.


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## keithy (Aug 31, 2012)

What does my head in about these fucking dickheads is that they didn't make me think or feel any differently about my abortion long term, they just made my actual appointments really stressful and frightening. They put women through hell short-term for no fucking point. I just wanted to smack em but the clinic tells you not to engage or interact with them at all. perhaps I should have gone back and just thrown it all at them, literally.


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## smmudge (Aug 31, 2012)

lagtbd said:


> I'd rather have a pervasive sense of shame than a vaginal ultrasound which is what women have to go through in some states. I'm not one for hair trigger anti Americanism, but we really do have it much better over here. It's Handmaid's Tale stuff in large areas.


 
A practice that receives widespread criticism, which is why you hear about it.

And over here we have Marie Stopes doing same-day dilation (as opposed to at least 24 hours) for D&E abortions up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy even though there's no research to suggest it's safe beyond 22 weeks, and very little to suggest it's safe beyond 19. And yet this is standard, largely uncriticised practice (which rarely happens, by the way, in the States beyond 16 weeks).


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

smmudge said:


> Yes the anti-abortion movement is more active in the States but so is the pro-choice movement. So you'd have to deal with the nutters in the States, but here you have a pervasive and unspoken sense of shame that goes largely uncontested.


 
Really? As far as I can see abortions get done here with little fuss. Do I want a full on American style argument about it here? Answer No thanks.

"40 days for life" is an American organisation. This is not America. I do not like America. As I told them in Bedford square they can fuck off back there and demonstrate. This is UK and you get abortions here.

In that fucked up place Northern Ireland you dont. Due to religous sensitivities.

And what is your experience of the USA?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 31, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me .


you have to BUY one, they don't hand them out willy-nilly.


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

smmudge said:


> A practice that receives widespread criticism, which is why you hear about it.
> 
> And over here we have Marie Stopes doing same-day dilation (as opposed to at least 24 hours) for D&E abortions up to 24 weeks into a pregnancy even though there's no research to suggest it's safe beyond 22 weeks, and very little to suggest it's safe beyond 19. And yet this is standard, largely uncriticised practice (which rarely happens, by the way, in the States beyond 16 weeks).


 
What happens in States beyond 16 weeks? yes i meant 16


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## smmudge (Aug 31, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Really? As far as I can see abortions get done here with little fuss. Do I want a full on American style argument about it here? Answer No thanks.


 
I don't think a full on American style argument would necessarily be any worse than what we have now.  It might activate a pro-choice movement to actually challenge the stigma of abortion we have here, and the insidious rhetoric in the media that it is a 'necessary evil' that is internalised by both doctors and patients.  Maybe there isn't enough fuss for me.  Maybe I want a fucking fuss.




Gramsci said:


> What happens in States beyond 6 weeks?


 
Do you mean 16 weeks?  Then usually it's overnight/24 hours cervical dilation (which happens here too, just not in Marie Stopes clinics).


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## Gramsci (Aug 31, 2012)

smmudge said:


> I don't think a full on American style argument would necessarily be any worse than what we have now. It might activate a pro-choice movement to actually challenge the stigma of abortion we have here, and the insidious rhetoric in the media that it is a 'necessary evil' that is internalised by both doctors and patients. Maybe there isn't enough fuss for me. Maybe I want a fucking fuss.
> 
> Do you mean 16 weeks? Then usually it's overnight/24 hours cervical dilation (which happens here too, just not in Marie Stopes clinics).


 
Yes I meant 16. just edited it.

OK I think I see where ur coming from now. The British Abortion system is a fudge. Like the need to get a doctor to sign a form to say the woman is in need of abortion. These are the following

"In the UK, abortions are allowed on certain grounds, including that continuing with the pregnancy would be a greater risk to the woman's life, physical or mental health than ending the pregnancy, continuing would be more of a risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children and there is a real risk the child would have a serious physical or mental disability"

Its ridiculous. There is not in law abortion on demand in this country. So yes a debate to end this fudge that the anti abortionist can use. See the linked article where doctors are accused of pre signing forms. Clearly signing the form is formality in practise. It does not challenge stigma of abortion but does accepts it. Abortion can only happen if the womens life would be under "greater" risk.

Am I correct this is what u mean?


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## smmudge (Sep 1, 2012)

Yes exactly, that there's a (stupidly vague) condition on having an abortion - it's not just the woman's choice - and that two doctors need to agree. The woman shouldn't have to divulge her circumstances or give her reasons; that she's chosen to have an abortion should be enough.

But also the occasional media headlines that repeat abortions are rising or the UK has the highest abortion rate in Europe, and if it's not outright 'shocking', it's implicit that abortions are a Bad Thing.  And you have quotes from anti-abortion groups saying how awful it is and that we need to get the numbers down, then you have the abortion providers saying pretty much the same thing!! Well that is bullshit.  Abortion isn't a bad thing, it's a very good thing; a safe and effective medical solution to a problematic situation that some women find themselves in. The 'problem' is unplanned pregnancy, not abortion, so why have a panic over one of the things that actually solves the problem? I just wish abortion providers had the balls to be more explicit about it.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you have to BUY one, they don't hand them out willy-nilly.


 RE:  Orang Utan said: I asked a Nation Of Islam chap if I could have one of his papers as I was interested in what they had to say, but he refused to even acknowledge me . 

I bought a "Final Call" many years ago out of curiosity. Their policies/beliefs mainly consist of:
1. NO miscegenation (interbreeeding of races) - a bit odd considering the distinctly light complexion of their current leader Farakhan
2. They want some (presumably) southern sates of the USA to be designated as "black" to be ruled by blacks.
They are certainly not orthodox Muslims, maybe you could say they bear a similar relationship to Islam (of any variety) to the relationship the Mormons have to Christianity - by analogy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2012)

Yes, I am familiar with the nation of islam.

Used to get the final call from them in dalston


----------



## CH1 (Sep 1, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, I am familiar with the nation of islam.
> 
> Used to get the final call from them in dalston


so what's their line on abortion then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 1, 2012)

CH1 said:


> so what's their line on abortion then?


Against it.

For future reference: google is your friend


----------



## simonSW2 (Sep 2, 2012)

Hello forum - longtime brixton dweller, first time post..

I assisted in breaking up the last protest on Brixton Hill and I intend to do the same again if they come back.

Last time, after watching what they were up to, and then unsuccessfully challenging and trying to disrupt their protest, I rang the police and reported them for harassment of women.

How to catch them out:
They must stay on the opposite side of the road. When the police arrived one of the protestors was pushing leaflets on girls outside the entrance gates, which could be defined as harassment.

These people have two sets of leaflets. The ones they hold in their hands and give out to anyone, then the other ones they conceal in their pockets which include disturbing and bloody images. One of the protesters had shown me their 'alternative' leaflet, which these sickos bring out to shock and terrify young girls. I explained this to the police, who then asked the guy to show them. At that moment he nodded to his group and they instantly all turned and marched off!


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 2, 2012)

8ball said:


> Ok, bunging the cat amongst the pigeons, maybe, but has anyone here ever tried actually engaging these people in conversation.
> 
> Shouting at them, throwing things etc. is going to harden attitudes in exactly the same way as when young teens get kettled on a peaceful process.
> I've changed minds in conversation with others, and also had my own mind changed. At worst you'll just be wasting your time rather than entrenching their resolve.


 
I have once, outside a clinic.  It's the first and only time a conversation with somebody has made me physically throw up.  They are vile, vile excuses for human beings.


----------



## Gramsci (Sep 2, 2012)

simonSW2 said:


> Last time, after watching what they were up to, and then unsuccessfully challenging and trying to disrupt their protest, I rang the police and reported them for harassment of women.
> 
> How to catch them out:
> They must stay on the opposite side of the road. When the police arrived one of the protestors was pushing leaflets on girls outside the entrance gates, which could be defined as harassment.
> ...


 
Thanks Simon.

Up at Marie Stopes in Whitfield street and BPAS in Bedford sq they had one person outside entrance to give out leaflets.

The rest praying on other side of street.

Interesting point about being on same side of street. I've seen demo's outside embassies. The Police normally insist on people being on opposite pavement.


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

Hello, 
 You do realise your anger, violence & hatred will never ever stop the peaceful and loving message of 40 days for life? I am off to Brixton now. Your violence will be met by love and penance. 
Laters


----------



## nagapie (Oct 6, 2012)

I'm on my way out of London but I think someone should go down there and give him a bit of peace and love.


----------



## joustmaster (Oct 6, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Hello,
> You do realise your anger, violence & hatred will never ever stop the peaceful and loving message of 40 days for life? I am off to Brixton now. Your violence will be met by love and penance.
> Laters


I hope you get trapped in a house fire


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I'm on my way out of London but I think someone should go down there and give him a bit of peace and love.



Aw bless you. Thanks


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> I hope you get trapped in a house fire



Nice. Classy


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

I used to be like you but nihilism is actually quite boring


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

Peace guys. See you later. Enjoy the Sunny H blog


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

Your opinion: if you disagree with someone hurt them. So you are pro-war and violence. Kind of adds up really as you condone abortion. You love Dubya


----------



## Badgers (Oct 6, 2012)

You don't deserve an intelligent reply (get god to 'create' one for you if you want) so just fuck off you cunt. 
Ta


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

Dear Badgers,

That was rude. No come on now. You have disgraced yourself and your family (sorry don't mention the family word). Anyway let me guess you are capital punishment now. Daily Mail reader?


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2012)

MaxKolbe - i take it you are a 'pro-lifer'? Are you protesting outside the Marie Stopes clinic?


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 6, 2012)

Have you left for/touched down in Brixton yet, Max? Or, is it as I suspect, you're at home miles away sitting at your computer lame trolling?

Coz either way its pretty shit.


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 6, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> MaxKolbe - i take it you are a 'pro-lifer'? Are you protesting outside the Marie Stopes clinic?



Am I pro-life?  Yes. Very much so. Anti-Capital punishment. Against abortion. Against war. Against anodyne bland pigeonholes which people create. Am I going to Brixton? Yes. I am. Be warned I am gentle and will offer the other cheek


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 6, 2012)

What do you hope to achieve by going to Brixton? If you really wanted to cause less suffering in the world, you'd stay at home.


----------



## harpo (Oct 6, 2012)

You said that an hour and a half ago.  You're obviously not really very keen to get to Brixton.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 6, 2012)

Nothing like spreading the love by protesting advice services, threatening womens reproductive and health rights, and pushing us all down a retrograde path again with women pursuing backstreet abortions. Now what was that about being against war?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2012)

maybe it was on this thread, maybe it was somewhere else that I read that the anti abortion movement is not pro-life it is pro-birth and that they're not the same thing

I think it was said by a nun


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2012)

keithy said:


> What does my head in about these fucking dickheads is that they didn't make me think or feel any differently about my abortion long term, they just made my actual appointments really stressful and frightening. They put women through hell short-term for no fucking point. I just wanted to smack em but the clinic tells you not to engage or interact with them at all. perhaps I should have gone back and just thrown it all at them, literally.


Keithy (or anyone else who's had to get through protestors to get to the clinic) would it be more or less stressful to you to have counter protestors outside the clinic? genuine question
the one time I've come across protest and  I did engage there was a lone protestor and no women entering the  clinic


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 6, 2012)

Also a lot of women who go to that clinic aren't going for abortions. That clinic does loads of keyhole fallopian tube clipping for women who don't want any more babies because you can get it much quicker there than via the NHS.


----------



## keithy (Oct 6, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Keithy (or anyone else who's had to get through protestors to get to the clinic) would it be more or less stressful to you to have counter protestors outside the clinic? genuine question
> the one time I've come across protest and I did engage there was a lone protestor and no women entering the clinic


 
I personally would have found it less stressful to have counter-protestors there but that's because I already was very sure about my views on abortion and what I perceive as a right over my own body. So, in that sense, I would have felt more confident not feeling so 'alone' in that situation.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2012)

thanks Keithy


----------



## Manter (Oct 6, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Also a lot of women who go to that clinic aren't going for abortions. That clinic does loads of keyhole fallopian tube clipping for women who don't want any more babies because you can get it much quicker there than via the NHS.


and it does vasectomies, plus it gives contraceptive advice.  But I am guessing the 40 days brigade would like to ban all of the above. they'd like us all barefoot and pregnant.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 6, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Your opinion: i*f you disagree with someone hurt them*. So you are pro-war and violence. Kind of adds up really as you condone abortion. You love Dubya


 
This is what you are doing.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Keithy (or anyone else who's had to get through protestors to get to the clinic) would it be more or less stressful to you to have counter protestors outside the clinic? genuine question
> the one time I've come across protest and I did engage there was a lone protestor and no women entering the clinic


 
At the moment the "40 Days for Life" are doing a full on demo targetting several clinics in London. The one outside Marie Stopes in Whitfield street has large banner and model of a foetus. At least one person directly outside the door to the clinic to harass people ( peace and Love of course) going in. They are there all day. Numbers vary depending on time of day. Same thing at Bedford sq. I have not seen the Brixton one.

I will see if I can get some photos.

http://www.40daysforlife.com/london/


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Hello,
> You do realise your anger, violence & hatred will never ever stop the peaceful and loving message of 40 days for life? I am off to Brixton now. Your violence will be met by love and penance.
> Laters


 
MaxKolbe-- you are part of an organisation that is linked to a US anti abortion campaign. In US you are the "peaceful" end of a spectrum that includes intimidation of those who help women to get abortions. 40 Days For Life are now trying to get a foothold into this country

Give the peace and love nonsense a rest.

Your presence is intimidatory. So do not be surprised if you people make comments at you. Im not against people demonstrating nor am I against people verbally opposing you at your demo.

Ive given them a piece of my mind. Peacefully of course.

Unlike US this is a secular country. The vigils I see in Whitfield st and Bedford sq are run by Catholics. Making a big deal of it with the rosary beads.

You are not welcome here.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> You are not welcome here.


word

I would like to see the sentiment attached to the so called pro-life movement re-directed to enahancing the life chances of children born into poverty in this country and round the world - then I might have more belief in your being pro-life


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2012)

steph said:


> Have you left for/touched down in Brixton yet, Max? Or, is it as I suspect, you're at home miles away sitting at your computer lame trolling?
> 
> Coz either way its pretty shit.


 
The anti abortion movement do troll on sites where there are supporters of abortion.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2012)

The demos in London are part of a world wide month of campaigning by 40 days for life.




> 40 Days for Life launches its largest campaign to date this Wednesday, September 28. The focused pro-life initiative will continue non-stop through Sunday, November 6. The 301 locations are listed at:http://40daysforlife.com/location.cfm


 
from this


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 6, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> word
> 
> I would like to see the sentiment attached to the so called pro-life movement re-directed to enahancing the life chances of children born into poverty in this country and round the world - then I might have more belief in your being pro-life


 
Sorry? Im pro abortion on demand. I think you have misread my post? 

Just edited it to make it more clear.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 6, 2012)

I am pro abortion on demand as well. I've probably just worded my post badly Gramsci, when I wrote 'your' I meant it towards the anti-abortion movement not you! Sorry

I don't like the term pro-life being championed by the anti abortion movement as I think they are pro-conception and birth and then abdicate responsibility for the life bit


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 8, 2012)

I see MaxKolbe hasn't been back yet to proclaim the Glorious Victories they no doubt achieved at the weekend....


----------



## Manter (Oct 8, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> I see MaxKolbe hasn't been back yet to proclaim the Glorious Victories they no doubt achieved at the weekend....


I didn't see them when I walked into Brixton


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 8, 2012)

Manter said:


> I didn't see them when I walked into Brixton


Good.

Will need to keep an eye out for this and make sure we're aware if anything else is planned for next weekend.


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 8, 2012)

Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace


----------



## ddraig (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace


Liar, scumbag and self righteous tosser
get a life, get some compassion


----------



## nagapie (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there.


 
I don't regret my abortions. And I'm glad I didn't have to be harassed by so-called peace lovers when I went to have them.


----------



## toggle (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace


http://www.imnotsorry.net/


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace


fuck off, ey?


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace



God hates billy bullshitters.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. *I come in Peace*


 
No you don't.


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 8, 2012)

ddraig said:


> Liar, scumbag and self righteous tosser
> get a life, get some compassion


Ahem, nice avatar?


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 8, 2012)

Language Timothy


----------



## Manter (Oct 8, 2012)

nagapie said:


> I don't regret my abortions. And I'm glad I didn't have to be harassed by so-called peace lovers when I went to have them.


I don't think he's real. No one talks like that.... I suspect back bedroom in his mother's house somewhere like Luton, randomly trolling.  Suggest we don't feed....


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 8, 2012)

London Luton if you please ma'am.


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 8, 2012)

Next at an abortuary on Wednesday...bis bald


----------



## Ol Nick (Oct 8, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Dear friends, thought I would update you. I did not go to Brixton on Saturday in the end but managed to get to Bedford Square for an hour. DKN there are 3 london locations?! Deo Gratias. I Just prayed the Rosary and a Divine Mercy chaplet. It's amazing how many people say they regret their abortion at these events and wish they knew there was support out there. The Good Counsel network do sterling work. Anyway I hope you find it in your hearts not to hurl venomous invective. I come in Peace


Fuck off, fascist!!


----------



## two sheds (Oct 8, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> Some days there were 8 of them with banners and models of foetus.


 
Would be tempting to take banners and models of priests coming at young children from behind.


----------



## quimcunx (Oct 9, 2012)

Code red! There's one there.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 9, 2012)

Cycled past earlier and there was three people there. I was going to have a go at them but they'd gone by the time I'd come out of the shop about midday. To be fair, they didn't look the militant type and were standing quietly on the opposite side of Brixton Hill facing the entrance to Marie Stopes. But if they hassle any women I think they deserve to get hassled themselves...although their "month of action" looks like a bit of a damp squib.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 9, 2012)

Its amazing how many people secretly regret not having an abortion and dare not say it


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Its amazing how many people secretly regret not having an abortion and dare not say it


 
cause there;s so much shit about that it's supposed to be traumatic and damaging, they don't talk brecause they think they are unusual. and that they will get shit for it


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 12, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Ahem, nice avatar?


 
See you have taken this as your avatar. The patron saint of the pro life movement.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2012)

toggle said:


> cause there;s so much shit about that it's supposed to be traumatic and damaging, they don't talk brecause they think they are unusual. and that they will get shit for it


 
and it would suggest their child is unwanted, which is a different thing altogether.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 12, 2012)

Piece here about women getting hassled outside Marie Stopes. I'm not clear whether this refers to the Marie Stopes on Brixton Hill though - is that the headquarters of MS?

http://rochesterladygarden.blog.co.uk/2012/10/10/abortion-clinic-harassment-experience-15020953/


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 12, 2012)

Hello 

The weekend returns but sadly I can not do any prayer vigils this weekend. Praying for you all. One day it might all make sense for you.


----------



## toggle (Oct 12, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Hello
> 
> The weekend returns but sadly I can not do any prayer vigils this weekend. Praying for you all. One day it might all make sense for you.


 

or you might get enough of a life of your own that you no longer feel the need to interfere in decisions that are none of your buisness.


----------



## inva (Oct 12, 2012)

toggle said:


> or you might get enough of a life of your own that you no longer feel the need to interfere in decisions that are none of your buisness.


there's no point replying to him. he's a troll.


----------



## toggle (Oct 12, 2012)

i think i can decide when i want to try to amuse myself with a new toy, without your assistance


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 12, 2012)

inva said:


> there's no point replying to him. he's a troll.


why do you think he's a troll? he's got that xtian smugness that seems pretty spot on


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 12, 2012)

toggle said:


> or you might get enough of a life of your own that you no longer feel the need to interfere in decisions that are none of your buisness.


 
I wish I could like this more than once, frankly.


----------



## inva (Oct 12, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> why do you think he's a troll? he's got that xtian smugness that seems pretty spot on


he may be a Christian and anti-abortion, I don't know, but his style seems to be that of a troll. apparently no intention of actually engaging, just silly provocations like the one a few posts up. says troll to me.


----------



## inva (Oct 12, 2012)

toggle said:


> i think i can decide when i want to try to amuse myself with a new toy, without your assistance


yeah, I'm sorry about that it was a stupid thing to say.


----------



## tombowler (Oct 12, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Hello
> 
> The weekend returns but sadly I can not do any prayer vigils this weekend. Praying for you all. One day it might all make sense for you.


if prayer worked there would be no war, and you would be dead


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 13, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Hello
> 
> The weekend returns but sadly I can not do any prayer vigils this weekend. Praying for you all. One day it might all make sense for you.


 
Here is some good advice for you:


----------



## MaxKolbe (Oct 14, 2012)

Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Oct 14, 2012)

It's just social engineering though isn't it?

Just a way to wind up religious people and prevent them from annoying capitalism with all that stuff about everybody being nice to each other, while instead turning them into good little soldiers in the culture wars.

Funded by the same sort of people who pay religious nutters to oppose gay marriage, climate change and evolution, because it's good business to underwrite a bunch of credulous fanatics with no functioning critical immune system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wedge_strategy


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!


 
Read the article. He says his view is a minority one.

Also I disagree fundamentally with his analysis of modern Feminism being a self centred consumerist philosophy. This argument has been trotted out regularly by the socially conservative left before.

He, as a socialist, misunderstands what freedom under Communism/ Socialism would be like. It is to achieve a society using technology to reduce work to a minimum and enable people to develop there own interests. Communism/ Socialism is not really about keeping people in rigid communities. The old labour values of solidarity and community can also be rigid and stifling. There have been Catholic Labour party members who have been pro life. Its not new.

Marx himself was both impressed and appalled by Capitalisms ability to change society and create wealth. It , however, gave riches to a few. It replacement by Communism would give the freedoms of the rich to the many. Individualism is not in opposition to Communism/ Socialism.

So women having control over there own bodies and reproduction is not contrary to socialism/ communism.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 15, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!


 
And another thought. Whilst you post up about pro life lefties. This is not the case with these protests. As Gunther points out this is part of campaign that is all about socially conservative Christian values. 40 days for life is a Christian led organisation. In this country looks to me like its dominated by the Catholics.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

Orang Utan said:


> why do you think he's a troll? he's got that xtian smugness that seems pretty spot on


 
I think he's a troll as well.  Far too polite and jovial given the flack he's getting

On the other hand, could just be xtian smugness


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 15, 2012)

He's been banned so perhaps he is a troll


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2012)

steph said:


> God hates billy bullshitters.


 
How does She feel about mackerel-snappers and their rosary beads?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Would be tempting to take banners and models of priests coming at young children from behind.


 
Coming at, or coming up?


----------



## Manter (Oct 18, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> And another thought. Whilst you post up about pro life lefties. This is not the case with these protests. As Gunther points out this is part of campaign that is all about socially conservative Christian values. 40 days for life is a Christian led organisation. In this country looks to me like its dominated by the Catholics.


It is, and they are a really f-ing nasty bunch, with some desperately repressive and regressive policies masquerading as 'natural empowement'.  

(note to self- avoid all threads on Catholic family values stuff....get WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too cross... off to kick a puppy and calm down.)


----------



## Ol Nick (Oct 18, 2012)

MaxKolbe said:


> Good article by Mehdi Hasan in New Statesman. There are plenty of lefties who are pro-life. Few have the guts to speak out but the Tide may be turning !!!! Yes!!!!!!!


 
I'm extremely pro-life - as an atheist this life is all I believe I, and everyone else, has.

I also believe in a woman's right to elect to terminate her pregnancy under certain circumstances. This life is not perfect, and that certain decisions only involve least-worst alternatives.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Oct 20, 2012)

Ol Nick said:


> I'm extremely pro-life - as an atheist this life is all I believe I, and everyone else, has.
> 
> I also believe in a woman's right to elect to terminate her pregnancy under certain circumstances. This life is not perfect, and that certain decisions only involve least-worst alternatives.


Good post

a  catholic friend of mine works at a catholic funded aids hospice in central america- they cant give condoms out but they do encourage women to go get them from another nearby project. Macho culture + poverty causing prostitution and aids and still the catholic church cant see condoms as a necessary thing. one of the reasons i had to leave it grrr


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 20, 2012)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Good post
> 
> a catholic friend of mine works at a catholic funded aids hospice in central america- they cant give condoms out but they do encourage women to go get them from another nearby project. Macho culture + poverty causing prostitution and aids and still the catholic church cant see condoms as a necessary thing. one of the reasons i had to leave it grrr


 
The Catholic church still has powerful influence in South America. I have Argentinian friend who is supporter of Peronist President Cristina. They know what its like to have Catholics Church with a lot of influence. Same goes for stuff my Polish friends have told me. The "Law and Justice party" is basically a Catholic Nationalist party. Thats why some of them like it here.

That is why I am so anti church. In particular the Catholic church. In this country these people have to tone it down. But these demos outside Stopes and BPAS are not benign. The Catholics would love to have more influence here.

A recent case in Argentina is a women who was trafficked for sex. She managed to get the courts to allow her an abortion. Somehow the church found out where she lived and had a demo outside her house. Which the following article , below, asks a series of questions about. Like how did the church get given this information. This did lead to counter demo outside the priests.

See here in the Argentinian paper Pagina/12 ( left leaning paper). Will google translate.


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## Gramsci (Oct 20, 2012)

Though I went past that lot in Bedford square Friday lunchtime and there were about 10 of them there praying. Seemed a more mixed bunch. So not sure if its only Catholics. In USA its not just Catholics. Hope they are not broadening there membership.

Still told them what I thought of them.

They even had a fucking nun right outside BPAS giving out leaflets.


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## quimcunx (Oct 20, 2012)

There was a bloke at the gate with leaflets and a bloke across the road praying like a cunt when I went past about 10.45 this morning.


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## not-bono-ever (Oct 23, 2012)

Gramsci said:


> They even had a fucking *nun* right outside BPAS giving out leaflets.


 
 Hardly a new obervation on my part, but someone who has eschewed all sex n procreation activities ,giving out advice and lectures outside a BPAS does seem soemwhat incoungruous doesnt it ?

As a past user of the MS clinic in Brix, for both M & F issues, I would have been rather fucked off to have had to come up against these shitbags when i/ we were "customers" and pretty stressed anyway. I would have kicked off big time. Maybe less kicking off tho' so after my neutering as all I wanted to do was go home and have a lie down and load up with opaiate based painkillers.

BTW, isnt there a  _preganancy advice centre_ lurking conveniently in the building next door that looks suspiciously like a church ?

cunts.


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## frogwoman (Dec 27, 2012)

i'm watching a video about the "army of god" anti abortion mentalists in the usa. "homicide is justified to protect life"


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## editor (Feb 13, 2018)

Please add your opinions! Lambeth consults on introducing buffer zone for ‘anti social’ protesters around Marie Stopes Clinic on Brixton Hill


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## shakespearegirl (Feb 13, 2018)

Added my opinion. They are horrible fuckers who can fuck the fuck off


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## Gramsci (Feb 14, 2018)

Having read the evidence to support this Public Space protection order I'm against it.

PSOP is from the same kind of legislation that brought us ASBOs.

It's anti civil liberties. I in no way support the anti abortion protestors. However I support there right to peaceful protest.

The evidence produced to support a PSOP is pretty feeble. The anti abortion protestors are handing out leaflets , praying and adking people if they need help. The only thing that is out of order imo is filming.

Ive seen these protestors outside Marie Stopes in Fitzrovia. Regularly give them abuse.

Imo people are entitled to peaceful protest and I'm entitled to give them verbal abuse. That's free speech.


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## brixtonblade (Feb 14, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Having read the evidence to support this Public Space protection order I'm against it.
> 
> PSOP is from the same kind of legislation that brought us ASBOs.
> 
> ...


I disagree.

These protesters are entitled to demonstrate - the buffer zone does not prevent them doing this whilst does limit a lot of their intimidating behaviour.

ETA - they're pretty intimidating... they're not quietly handing out leaflets - they're right in people's faces


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

brixtonblade said:


> I disagree.
> 
> These protesters are entitled to demonstrate - the buffer zone does not prevent them doing this whilst does limit a lot of their intimidating behaviour.
> 
> ETA - they're pretty intimidating... they're not quietly handing out leaflets - they're right in people's faces



Intimidating is a strong word. Have you read the evidence packs put forward to support this anti civil liberties order?

I don't like what they do. However handing out leaflets and praying isn't intimidating.

If the behaviour of protestors is intimidating there are already laws to deal with that.

Civil liberties and protest on the streets should not be whittled away.

The buffer zone is bollox. It makes protest pointless.

This kind of ASBO legislation is not about violent or physically aggressive behaviour. It's about the state intervening to limit and control behaviours that at a certain time are considered anti social. It's a slippery slope to start supporting this kind of legislation in this case. 

This isn't about criminal behaviour.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

brixtonblade said:


> ETA - they're pretty intimidating... they're not quietly handing out leaflets - they're right in people's faces



That's free speech. Ive done the same myself for other causes.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

This reminded me I was listening to the radio a few weeks ago. They were discussing justice. One legal person said it's better that 10 people get let off rather than one person be wrongly convicted.

Legislation like PSOP are offshoot of ASBO beloved of Nu Labour. It deals with what some see as the problem of not having strong enough evidence to stop people / individuals behaving in a certain way. Not having "enough" evidence to convict them of threatening behaviour for example.

That is the level of evidence required is set at a lower bar level under ASBO type legislation. It's highly dubious that justice is being taken down this route.


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## Miss-Shelf (Feb 15, 2018)

It's not the same as shouting or being right in someones face on a march /protest

I disagree that praying or leafleting is not intimidating when it's aimed at a woman who's about to have a termination.  It's often a very upsetting and confusing time for a person for many different reasons. 

Women should not be intimidated or shamed when they seek a termination - it wouldn't be seen as appropriate to shout and protest at any other patient or client seeking a clinical service while vulnerable so why is it legitimate to do so to a woman in this circumstance?

anti abortion protesters can lobby and shout at Marie Stoppes or BPAS offices if they want to register a protest or even at a march/pro choice event


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

Miss-Shelf said:


> It's not the same as shouting or being right in someones face on a march /protest
> 
> I disagree that praying or leafleting is not intimidating when it's aimed at a woman who's about to have a termination.  It's often a very upsetting and confusing time for a person for many different reasons.
> 
> ...



Have you read the evidence? Nothing about shouting from the bits I've read so far. Maybe I'm wrong and you can show me.

Ive seen them out side Marie Stopes in West end. They don't shout. They stand about praying and handing out leaflets.

Have you seen them shouting?


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## Miss-Shelf (Feb 15, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Have you read the evidence? Nothing about shouting from the bits I've read so far. Maybe I'm wrong and you can show me.
> 
> Ive seen them out side Marie Stopes in West end. They don't shout. They stand about praying and handing out leaflets.
> 
> Have you seen them shouting?


My main point is that praying and leafleting IS intimidating to women about to get a termination - it's a challenge to their decision at a time when they may be vulnerable 
it wouldn't be permitted on a clinical hospital ward
I know this footage below is from a BPAS and it's from a few years ago - it's highly intimidate to women at a vulnerable time


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

Agreed.

Some women going through the process are in very fragile and vulnerable states. The PSOP is about protecting them and allowing those that choose to go through an emotionally difficult process to do so without having dead baby posters or disapproving looks thrust in their face.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> This reminded me I was listening to the radio a few weeks ago. They were discussing justice. One legal person said it's better that 10 people get let off rather than one person be wrongly convicted.
> 
> Legislation like PSOP are offshoot of ASBO beloved of Nu Labour. It deals with what some see as the problem of not having strong enough evidence to stop people / individuals behaving in a certain way. Not having "enough" evidence to convict them of threatening behaviour for example.
> 
> That is the level of evidence required is set at a lower bar level under ASBO type legislation. It's highly dubious that justice is being taken down this route.


yeh, this. anti-abortion protests are something many people vehemently oppose, and so many people would support a psop to deal with them. when it comes to something people by contrast agree with that's being banned, well by then the precedent will have been set by actions taken against the anti-abortionists. people's support for this now is frankly making a rod for their own backs down the way.

a better way to deal with this would be to oppose the anti-abortionists on the streets to remove them from them.


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## Miss-Shelf (Feb 15, 2018)

Counter protests are useful in combating the original protest but they add to the febrile atmosphere which is counter productive to the women attend  the clinic 

I get what Pickman's model and Gramsci are saying about the legislative basis for a buffer zone - what other options could be taken?


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## HelloNBD (Feb 15, 2018)

I have been approached by pro-life protesters outside clinics and I note (in a calm / polite manner) the distress that they often cause to women that have already made their decision. It is usually met with a barrage of hurtful statements about abortion being a sin, unlawful, shameful, disgusting etc etc.

The images and language used is extremely graphic; dead babies and murder.

It is misogynistic to pressure a woman to continue a pregnancy that will negatively impact them physically, socially and financially. As much as we are progressing in society, it is still more often than not, the mother that takes on the majority responsibility for the child.

We have no idea where these women are coming from and could have a number of different factors playing into their decision: timing, health, culture, finance,  failed pregnancy, domestic or sexual abuse.

Abortion is legal. Women should be free to access the services without judgement and being harassed.

I support the right to freedom of speech but these protests should not be allowed to take place near the clinics.

On a related note: I'm not religious but I don't mind people in the street handing out leaflets or asking to speak as I can politely decline. Public religious preaching in Brixton seems to be getting so much more shouty and aggro. A memorial for David Bowie was overshadowed by someone on a megaphone, there are a selection of regular bible shouters outside the tube and don't even get me started on the guys in sacks. I see that as anti social behaviour but I'm not sure if / how it could be addressed. Freedom of speech can be a pain in the arse!


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

HelloNBD said:


> I support the right to freedom of speech but these protests should not be allowed to take place near the clinics.


it seems to me that the second part of your sentence is opposed to the first part of your sentence. 

who should determine which protests can be where? should it be the local council? the police? the mayor of london? the moment you say 'i support the right to free speech but also support abridging the right of these people to free speech' you're opening the door to other people - people who you may indeed support - having their freedom of speech curtailed. the precedent has been set.


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

Not really. Freedom of Speech is a qualified right not an absolute right, so it's not at odds to say you have the right to Free Speech but not to do it in this location. Defining the location is the tricky bit and subject to personal opinion, but for (an extreme) example (to prove the point), wouldn't most agree that expressing you freedom of speech on the runway at Heathrow is something that should be banned? I personally feel banning them from protesting immediately outside a clinic is an acceptable qualifier.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Not really. Freedom of Speech is a qualified right not an absolute right, so it's not at odds to say you have the right to Free Speech but not to do it in this location. Defining the location is the tricky bit and subject to personal opinion, but for (an extreme) example (to prove the point), wouldn't most agree that expressing you freedom of speech on the runway at Heathrow is something that should be banned? I personally feel banning them from protesting immediately outside a clinic is an acceptable qualifier.


it's always good to see things taken to ludicrous extremes. what's being proposed isn't police intervention under the public order act 1984, under one of sections 12 or 14. it is a new council power to ban things happening, which very much lowers the bar for banning protest and dissent. do you understand that? not to mention there are powers to prevent congregation on the runway at heathrow, for example aggravated trespass.


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

So long as we're all agreed it's not an absolute right


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> So long as we're all agreed it's not an absolute right


i see freedom of speech as a right to be defended. this does not mean defending everything people say, but it means resisting government attempts to set limits on things like (in this case) the right to protest. to my mind the reason the nefandous anti-abortion protests are the first thing to be dealt with under the psop is because so many people can agree that anti-abortion protests near abortion clinics are wrong. but who will be next? supporting the use of these powers for this purpose is supporting the creation of a precedent.


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

And that's where the personal opinion driven debate comes in. Some will see it as the first step down a slippery slope towards 1984. Others won't.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> And that's where the personal opinion driven debate comes in. Some will see it as the first step down a slippery slope towards 1984. Others won't.


yeh there are none so blind as those that will not see


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 15, 2018)

It would be a lot easier if rather than having a freedom of speech debate we could all just repeatedly punch the "pro life" cunts in the face.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It would be a lot easier if rather than having a freedom of speech debate we could all just repeatedly punch the "pro life" cunts in the face.


why stop there?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> why stop there?


Good point. Set fire to the cunts too.


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## Winot (Feb 15, 2018)

HelloNBD said:


> Public religious preaching in Brixton seems to be getting so much more shouty and aggro. A memorial for David Bowie was overshadowed by someone on a megaphone



Clash of religions then.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Not really. Freedom of Speech is a qualified right not an absolute right, so it's not at odds to say you have the right to Free Speech but not to do it in this location. Defining the location is the tricky bit and subject to personal opinion, but for (an extreme) example (to prove the point), wouldn't most agree that expressing you freedom of speech on the runway at Heathrow is something that should be banned? I personally feel banning them from protesting immediately outside a clinic is an acceptable qualifier.



Well blocking runways may be good idea if stopping deportation. Or if it's to oppose more runways at Heathrow. 

Stansted runway closed after anti-deportation protesters block flight

So if you're saying protestors blocking runways is always a bad thing I'd say no.

So your analogy doesn't work for me.


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Not really. Freedom of Speech is a qualified right not an absolute right, so it's not at odds to say you have the right to Free Speech but not to do it in this location. Defining the location is the tricky bit and subject to personal opinion, but for (an extreme) example (to prove the point), wouldn't most agree that expressing you freedom of speech on the runway at Heathrow is something that should be banned? I personally feel banning them from protesting immediately outside a clinic is an acceptable qualifier.



I never said freedom of speech is an absolute right. In this case it looks to me from the evidence put forward and from what I have seen of those anti abortion protestors is that they are non violent.

I have had, how shall I put it, "words" with them in central London. They aren't violent. If anything yet were more scared of me. Also the majority of the anti abortion protestors I've seen outside clinics and office of abortion advice places are women. These protestors aren't macho males. They really believe they are doing gods work. And that praying for the likes of me whilst Im giving them verbal will work.

In fact when I have had "words" with them they look scared.

As the evidence packs the Council put forward show, and this correlates with my experience ,these anti abortion protestors hand out leaflets, pray and I don't see anything more myself. Filming is mentioned. This is out of order. Though I've never seen it.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> it's always good to see things taken to ludicrous extremes. what's being proposed isn't police intervention under the public order act 1984, under one of sections 12 or 14. it is a new council power to ban things happening, which very much lowers the bar for banning protest and dissent. do you understand that? not to mention there are powers to prevent congregation on the runway at heathrow, for example aggravated trespass.



This is what concerns me.

It looks to me that a local Council can set up a Public Place Protection Order. The level of evidence needed to set it up is very low. But once it's set up one can be criminalised.

The actual legislation is very vague.




> (1)A local authority may make a public spaces protection order if satisfied on reasonable grounds that two conditions are met.
> 
> (2)The first condition is that—
> 
> ...




Anti-social Behaviour, Crime and Policing Act 2014

No definitions are given. It is catch all legislation.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

HelloNBD said:


> On a related note: I'm not religious but I don't mind people in the street handing out leaflets or asking to speak as I can politely decline. Public religious preaching in Brixton seems to be getting so much more shouty and aggro. A memorial for David Bowie was overshadowed by someone on a megaphone, there are a selection of regular bible shouters outside the tube and don't even get me started on the guys in sacks. I see that as anti social behaviour but I'm not sure if / how it could be addressed. Freedom of speech can be a pain in the arse!



In Oxford Circus the preachers were ASBOd. Oxford Street/ Oxford Circus is no go area for preachers and homeless. The only ones that get away with it are Jehovah witness who just stand there quietly with there magazine.

I actually find Jehovah witness offensive. Its a cultish organisation that preys on the vulnerable imo.

I'm looking at the case of Brixton hill Marie Stopes on its own. The evidence packs are worth reading. As I keep saying the anti abortion protestors are handing out leaflets, praying etc. So under your definition not doing that much.

I've seen nothing in the evidence packs of actual intimidating behaviour. It's that people ( passers by , residents, users of clinic) don't like anti abortion protestors.

The PSPO legislation is being used by Lambeth to cover not outright intimidating behaviour but feeling upset by protest. 

This is really low bar for what is blanket stop of right to protest peacefully.


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## brixtonblade (Feb 15, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> In Oxford Circus the preachers were ASBOd. Oxford Street/ Oxford Circus is no go area for preachers and homeless. The only ones that get away with it are Jehovah witness who just stand there quietly with there magazine.
> 
> I actually find Jehovah witness offensive. Its a cultish organisation that preys on the vulnerable imo.
> 
> ...


I think you've raised some very good points.  I'm conflicted about this issue now.

FWIW - I've seen them shouting at people on Brixton Hill and this is why I think their behaviour is intimidating


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

brixtonblade said:


> I think you've raised some very good points.  I'm conflicted about this issue now.
> 
> FWIW - I've seen them shouting at people on Brixton Hill and this is why I think their behaviour is intimidating



Which points?


----------



## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Which points?



Take it up with me Spam. Don't make comments about my posts under another posters comment. If you have issue with what I'm saying let's have it out.


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## brixtonblade (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Which points?


That this sets a precedent.  This post particularly (not Gramsci's but similar to his posts)



Pickman's model said:


> i see freedom of speech as a right to be defended. this does not mean defending everything people say, but it means resisting government attempts to set limits on things like (in this case) the right to protest. to my mind the reason the nefandous anti-abortion protests are the first thing to be dealt with under the psop is because so many people can agree that anti-abortion protests near abortion clinics are wrong. but who will be next? supporting the use of these powers for this purpose is supporting the creation of a precedent.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

SpamMisery said:


> Not really. Freedom of Speech is a qualified right not an absolute right, so it's not at odds to say you have the right to Free Speech but not to do it in this location. Defining the location is the tricky bit and subject to personal opinion, but for (an extreme) example (to prove the point), wouldn't most agree that expressing you freedom of speech on the runway at Heathrow is something that should be banned? I personally feel banning them from protesting immediately outside a clinic is an acceptable qualifier.



A better analogy is what's been happening outside the Canada Goose store in Regent street. New store that came to Oxford Circus area late last year. PETA , animal rights organisation, have been picketing it since it's opened. In same way that anti abortion activists have demonstrated outside Marie Stopes. Canada Goose have tried injunction. But this hasn't worked well. I saw PETA outside store this evening.

Should they have PSPO order on them? No indication of anything like that yet. Canada Goose had to go to court to get injunction. Judge didn't outright ban PETA. Peta are still outside store on regular basis in evenings from what I have seen. ( An injunction isn't the same as PSPO.)

After all it's not illegal to wear fur lined clothes. Why should people shopping have to walk past protestors? Why should law abiding business have to deal with hard-line animal rights activists putting off potential customers?


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## SpamMisery (Feb 15, 2018)

Fair enough. The argument is one of subjectivity so entirely valid even though I don't particularly agree with it (although, I agree it might set a precedent and be open to mission creep if not properly held to account, I just don't see anything nefarious it)


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## Winot (Feb 15, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> Take it up with me Spam. Don't make comments about my posts under another posters comment. If you have issue with what I'm saying let's have it out.



I suspect SpamMisery has you on ignore.


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## Gramsci (Feb 15, 2018)

Winot said:


> I suspect SpamMisery has you on ignore.



I don't put people on ignore. How do I find out if someone has me on ignore?


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## Sea Star (Feb 16, 2018)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It would be a lot easier if rather than having a freedom of speech debate we could all just repeatedly punch the "pro life" cunts in the face.


considering that many of them are women, how can you justify this?


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## shakespearegirl (Feb 16, 2018)

brixtonblade said:


> I think you've raised some very good points.  I'm conflicted about this issue now.
> 
> FWIW - I've seen them shouting at people on Brixton Hill and this is why I think their behaviour is intimidating



I've also seen them shouting at people on Brixton Hill. Shouting at young, vulnerable women who are going through a potentially difficult situation already and in the course of seeking a medical solution shouldn't be subject to abuse.


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## spanglechick (Feb 16, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> A better analogy is what's been happening outside the Canada Goose store in Regent street. New store that came to Oxford Circus area late last year. PETA , animal rights organisation, have been picketing it since it's opened. In same way that anti abortion activists have demonstrated outside Marie Stopes. Canada Goose have tried injunction. But this hasn't worked well. I saw PETA outside store this evening.
> 
> Should they have PSPO order on them? No indication of anything like that yet. Canada Goose had to go to court to get injunction. Judge didn't outright ban PETA. Peta are still outside store on regular basis in evenings from what I have seen. ( An injunction isn't the same as PSPO.)
> 
> After all it's not illegal to wear fur lined clothes. Why should people shopping have to walk past protestors? Why should law abiding business have to deal with hard-line animal rights activists putting off potential customers?


This false analogy makes clear what I suspected: your stance on this does not take into account the vulnerability of the people using MS clinics.  

A better analogy might be a protest against psychiatric medicine outside the Maudsley.   Vulnerable, emotionally distressed people who are already having a shit time of things do not need to be exposed to a bunch of people whose aim is to make them feel they are doing the wrong thing.   

I've never bought a fur-lined coat, but I have had a termination and it was an upsetting day even for someone with no religious background or underlying hopes that my pregnancy could turn into a happy family.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 16, 2018)

Sea Star said:


> considering that many of them are women, how can you justify this?


Because pro lifers of either sex, particularly ones who hang around outside abortion clinics harassing those women using them, are cunts that need punching in the face.

Hope that clarifies things a bit.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> This false analogy makes clear what I suspected: your stance on this does not take into account the vulnerability of the people using MS clinics.
> 
> A better analogy might be a protest against psychiatric medicine outside the Maudsley.   Vulnerable, emotionally distressed people who are already having a shit time of things do not need to be exposed to a bunch of people whose aim is to make them feel they are doing the wrong thing.
> 
> I've never bought a fur-lined coat, but I have had a termination and it was an upsetting day even for someone with no religious background or underlying hopes that my pregnancy could turn into a happy family.


Yeh, I don't think anyone's arguing that they should be there: my view is that a) the abridgement of the right to protest through the use of pspos may be used against scum now, but will almost certainly be used against people you agree with shortly, and b) that demos by pro-choicers to drive the scum away would be much better than relying on the state.


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## spanglechick (Feb 16, 2018)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh, I don't think anyone's arguing that they should be there: my view is that a) the abridgement of the right to protest through the use of pspos may be used against scum now, but will almost certainly be used against people you agree with shortly, and b) that demos by pro-choicers to drive the scum away would be much better than relying on the state.


Demos to drive the scum away are also going to be extremely unhelpful to vulnerable people.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> Demos to drive the scum away are also going to be extremely unhelpful to vulnerable people.


And supporting the creation of a precedent through the use of arbitrary pspos is unhelpful too, to both vulnerable and resilient people.


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## Gramsci (Feb 16, 2018)

spanglechick said:


> This false analogy makes clear what I suspected: your stance on this does not take into account the vulnerability of the people using MS clinics.
> 
> A better analogy might be a protest against psychiatric medicine outside the Maudsley.   Vulnerable, emotionally distressed people who are already having a shit time of things do not need to be exposed to a bunch of people whose aim is to make them feel they are doing the wrong thing.
> 
> I've never bought a fur-lined coat, but I have had a termination and it was an upsetting day even for someone with no religious background or underlying hopes that my pregnancy could turn into a happy family.



I have, as Ive said before, personally argued with these anti abortion protestors when I have seen them in West End.

Use of Public Space Protection Order against anti abortion protestors will set a precedent that is likely to mean that PSPO will be used against political campaign groups like PETA.

If that lessening of right to protest is trade off you are willing to accept to deter anti abortion protestors then that is up to you.

Its not a trade off Im willing to make.


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## sparkybird (Jun 2, 2018)

I've just noticed them back outside brixton hill branch. Did an exclusion zone not happen?
Edited to add that I've been away for a while and may have missed something


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2018)

sparkybird said:


> I've just noticed them back outside brixton hill branch. Did an exclusion zone not happen?
> Edited to add that I've been away for a while and may have missed something



The consultation ended on 28th February. It had been extended. 

https://www.lambeth.gov.uk/consulta...e-protection-order-pspo-for-sexual-health-and

I can't find anything so far on Lambeth non user friendly website about a decision.


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2018)

Ive found this on Lambeth website.

Public Space Protection Order | Lambeth Council

Only lists two. Not one for clinics.

So whilst consultation has finished maybe a decision hasn't been taken yet.


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## Gramsci (Jun 3, 2018)

sparkybird said:


> I've just noticed them back outside brixton hill branch. Did an exclusion zone not happen?
> Edited to add that I've been away for a while and may have missed something



Ive also seen them in Fitsrovia outside Stopes. I haven't seen them there for a while.


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## sparkybird (Jun 3, 2018)

Thanks Gramsci


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## Gramsci (Jun 4, 2018)

I noticed one of the PSPO was for "legal highs".

This is exactly what I was complaining about in previous posts and got given a hard time for on this thread.

Im not into drugs or festivals myself. Drug use changes. What young people use now isn't the same as years ago. To me, and I don't have expert knowledge, this clamp down using PSPO is insidious infringement on what young people who aren't into criminal behaviour do for recreation.

I hope all those who support PSPO are pleased.

New Labour Lambeth council don't see difference between clamping down on highs and stopping anti abortion campaigners.


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## purenarcotic (Jun 5, 2018)

Gramsci said:


> I noticed one of the PSPO was for "legal highs".
> 
> This is exactly what I was complaining about in previous posts and got given a hard time for on this thread.
> 
> ...



Just to clarify, legal highs still carry the name but they aren’t actually legal, they were banned in 2016 under the Psychoactive Substances Act. It’s not an offence to possess one but it is to produce, supply, offer to supply, import etc.


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## Winot (Jun 5, 2018)

purenarcotic said:


> Just to clarify, legal highs still carry the name but they aren’t actually legal, they were banned in 2016 under the Psychoactive Substances Act. It’s not an offence to possess one but it is to produce, supply, offer to supply, import etc.



Haven’t they had legal problems enforcing that law though?


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## Winot (Jun 5, 2018)

Winot said:


> Haven’t they had legal problems enforcing that law though?



Laughing gas still illegal despite court decisions, UK government says


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## purenarcotic (Jun 5, 2018)

Winot said:


> Haven’t they had legal problems enforcing that law though?



I don’t know tbh, was sharing it as I thought that might explain why legal highs specifically have been subject to the pspo


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