# "English" Villages - Welsh Names



## Isambard (Aug 8, 2005)

A gentle Sunday thread.   

Boring anorak that I am, while Urban is searching I glance at the "50 Miles Around Bristol" map my dad gave me.   

I noticed the Herefordshire villahe of Llanveynoe and I was going to ask, how come _that_ village kept a Welsh name whilst many Welsh towns and cities are defined in English. How many times do the GLC sing about dealing in "Cas-Gwent" ?

But even as I was writing this and checking the spelling I saw 3 nearby villages, also in England, called X Maes-Coed. 

Errrrm, dunno what to say really, but it was on my mind like.


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## JTG (Aug 8, 2005)

Cas Newydd surely?

Cas Gwent is the half English, half Welsh (by population anyway) town of Chepstow


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## Isambard (Aug 8, 2005)

I was going to write a cheeky reply to arsey Jittug, sure in the knowledge...........but I took a peek at the map first!    

I got me Cas-Gwent and Casnewydd mixed up.   

Spank me later - no, errrm skip that, I'll owe you a cup of tea, alright, clart!


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## SeniorSbagliato (Aug 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> X Maes-Coed.



Phonetic translation of Christmas Tree innit.


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## Belushi (Aug 8, 2005)

Loads of English + Scottish place names have welsh elements in them, of the top of my head Coombe (Welsh Cwm), Nant (as in Nantwich) Dwr (in Derwent, Cheddar), Ystrad (Strathclyde), Aber (Berwick), Caer (Carlisle, Catterick), Dun (Edinburgh, London), Afon (Avon) and many more.


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## niclas (Aug 8, 2005)

Parts of Herefordshire were Welsh speaking into the 19th Century. There are shedloads of placenames that reflect that heritage, as in the area to the west of Oswestry in Shropshire... my favourite is Pant (what do the native English think of that?).

Placenames usually only reflect the origins of a village or town - I don't think anyone's spoken Norman in Beaumaris for 800 years! - but others ebb and flow according to the linguistic tide. For example, a village just outside Mold was originally called Soughton. It became Cymricised to Sychdyn in the 18th C and then Anglicised back in the early 20th C. In the "cultural revolution" following the 60s, it became known again as Sychdyn - except some tosser's now gone and put up a bilingual sign with Soughton on top.   

The ebb and flow...


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## niclas (Aug 8, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Loads of English + Scottish place names have welsh elements in them, of the top of my head Coombe (Welsh Cwm), Nant (as in Nantwich) Dwr (in Derwent, Cheddar), Ystrad (Strathclyde), Aber (Berwick), Caer (Carlisle, Catterick), Dun (Edinburgh, London), Afon (Avon) and many more.



"Welsh" might be pushing it a bit - the places you refer to have Celtic names, dating from a time when the Brythonic language (i.e. the predecessor of Welsh, Breton and Cornish) was spoken from Glasgow [Glas + gae = Blue/green field] downwards.

Interesting how few Welsh/Celtic words have made it into the English language - unlike the copious borrowing that took place elsewhere. Apparently only flannel (gwlannen) and apple (afal) made it. Is that because there was so little interaction between the Celts and Anglo-Saxons/Normans or did they just shout loudly and slowly at us until we learnt their language?


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## Belushi (Aug 8, 2005)

> ]"Welsh" might be pushing it a bit - the places you refer to have Celtic names, dating from a time when the Brythonic language (i.e. the predecessor of Welsh, Breton and Cornish) was spoken from Glasgow [Glas + gae = Blue/green field] downwards.



I'm no linguist so couldn't tell you when Brythonic became Welsh; but certainly the Welsh of what is now called Wales and the Northern Welsh (of Ystrad Clwyd/Strathclyde) saw themselves as one people and spoke the same language; the earliest Welsh poets (Aneurin, Taliesin) wrote in early Welsh, and we're men of the North.



> Interesting how few Welsh/Celtic words have made it into the English language - unlike the copious borrowing that took place elsewhere. Apparently only flannel (gwlannen) and apple (afal) made it. Is that because there was so little interaction between the Celts and Anglo-Saxons/Normans or did they just shout loudly and slowly at us until we learnt their language?



Now thats a huge debate...

I remember being told as a kid that 'Glow' came from 'Glo' but I doubt whether its true.


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## Isambard (Aug 8, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> Apparently only flannel (gwlannen) and apple (afal) made it.



I'm not sure if afal became apple. I think this and other words were MUCH older and are in several languages. eg german Apfel.

Ysgol is the other that springs to mind: School, Schule.


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## Belushi (Aug 8, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> Ysgol is the other that springs to mind: School, Schule.



Doesnt that come from a Latin root?


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## Sunspots (Aug 8, 2005)

Isn't there a 'Welsh Bicknor' and an 'English Bicknor', between Monmouth and the edge of the Forest Of Dean?

Despite being less than a couple of miles apart, I think Welsh Bicknor was once part of Monmouthshire, but is now technically Herefordshire, whereas English Bicknor is part of Gloucestershire.


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## Space Girl (Aug 8, 2005)

Bicknor can't be Welsh as there's no 'K' in the Welsh alphabet


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## Isambard (Aug 8, 2005)

Belushi mate, it was in "Stories of English" by David Crystal.
I might be able to get back to that section by Xmas.


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## Ben Bore (Aug 11, 2005)

There's a 'Pant' and a 'Hengoed' in Shropshire/Herefordshire


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## Belushi (Aug 11, 2005)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> There's a 'Pant' and a 'Hengoed' in Shropshire/Herefordshire



Many of those border areas were welsh speaking up until Victorian times.


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## Red Faction (Aug 12, 2005)

dont laugh at this daft question
but why isnt hereford part of wales?
is it on the wrong side of offas dyke or what?


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## Sunspots (Aug 12, 2005)

Space Girl said:
			
		

> Bicknor can't be Welsh as there's no 'K' in the Welsh alphabet



(-Is that true?  Didn't know that!   )

Anyway... at the mo', _'Welsh Bicknor'_ isn't in Wales. It's technically an English village in Herefordshire!


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## Sunspots (Aug 12, 2005)

Red Faction said:
			
		

> dont laugh at this daft question
> but why isnt hereford part of wales?
> is it on the wrong side of offas dyke or what?



I agree.  

Whenever anybody mentions Herefordshire to me, I always think of somewhere much further to the east.  I'm always surprised to see where it is on a map.  

I dunno about which side of the dyke it is, but it's on the Welsh side of The Servern, so in my mind, it ought to be in Wales.


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## comstock (Aug 17, 2005)

Isambard said:
			
		

> I'm not sure if afal became apple. I think this and other words were MUCH older and are in several languages. eg german Apfel.




I think apple is/was in the Guiness Book of Records as the oldest word. Don't have a copy anymore, but IIRC it came from Hindi word Apal.

I'm a mine of useless information me.

edited link here (2nd paragraph) http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Forum/3807/features/language.html


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 24, 2005)

comstock said:
			
		

> I think apple is/was in the Guiness Book of Records as the oldest word...


Wow!   Would you Adam and Eve it?


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## nwnm (Sep 24, 2005)

Niclas said "Interesting how few Welsh/Celtic words have made it into the English language - unlike the copious borrowing that took place elsewhere. Apparently only flannel (gwlannen) and apple (afal) made it." Ah, but other words/names made it via welsh speaking settlements in other parts of the world. From South America came Pen-Gwyn (later anglicised to Penguin). There are probably others but I'm too knackered to think - just got back from anti war demo in London (now the origins of that name was Latin...)


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## Karac (Sep 24, 2005)

The interesting thing is that "English" as a language has been hugely  influenced by Welsh.
Not so in the lexicon,as a cunning linguist would say.


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## Sub_bass (Sep 25, 2005)

*Still in herefordshire...*

<spod>Apparently, 'Malvern' is an anglicisation of 'Moelfryn' -which means _bald hill_ in welsh...</spod>

_sub_


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## Dai Sheep (Sep 25, 2005)

I thought the latin for London (Londinium) was derived from the Brittonic word for LOndon (Llun-dain)...dont quote me though. Anyone care to elaborate?


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## nwnm (Sep 25, 2005)

I tend to go with the Latin Explanation for where London got its name - partially because of its rapid expansion from settlement to city (in the Roman sense of the word). Although I may be wrong....

I think karac makes an interesting point about english as a language being influenced by Welsh. This is probably due to 2 things inter marriage (and with an invading army that could only go one way) and the tendancy for children to learn early (i.e. formative) speech form from their mothers (hence the term 'mother tongue'). Female  Britons who ended up with angles or seax partners would obviously embellish this strange new language with words of their own.

This sort of thing has even infected (or affected) regional accents - Geordie accents (and some peculiarly geordie expressions) are a direct throwback to the Viking settlements in that part of the UK for example.


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## Karac (Sep 26, 2005)

Waded through this publication a couple of weeks ago-http://www.joensuu.fi/fld/ecc/publications/celtic_roots.html

Makes the point that ,although very few Celtic words made it into English-the very structure of English as a language could be influenced by Welsh.


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## jonH (Sep 26, 2005)

Balham


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## Hoogs (Oct 1, 2005)

doe any of this also have to do with the Tories re-defining boundaries back in the 80's in order to win more votes?


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## durruti02 (Nov 18, 2005)

Red Faction said:
			
		

> dont laugh at this daft question
> but why isnt hereford part of wales?
> is it on the wrong side of offas dyke or what?



much of the area that is herefordshire spoke welsh at one point hence all the welsh place names .. it was/is called in welsh Ergying (or Archenfield in english). many of the old churches are dedicated to welsh saints e.g one at Much Dewchurch. Its church is dedicated to St David and the Welsh name was Llan Ddewi Fawr - Great St David. in fact it's obvious that the english name comes from that ...  Dew(i)church!


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