# Etymology Addiction - Brixton Street Names



## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

In recent years my addiction to the origin of words has burgeoned uncontrollably. Recently it has fused with my interest in urbanism and I have found myself glued to the internet desperately trying to descover why roads were named as they were. I grew up on Brixton Water Lane and my parents still live there. The water of that lane (the Rive Effra) is obvious enough. But what about Dalberg Road, Morval Road, Trelawn Road, Josephine Avenue, Helix Gardens, Arlingford, Brailsford, Barnwell, Appach, Rattray, Jelf!?

I realise this may not be the kind of thing that keeps anyone else awake at night but if anyone knows any of them in Brixton (or for that matter most of south london) I would be endlessly interested.

I imagine the council archives could help me out but I quite enjoy using guesswork and the internet to work things out. For example I decided that Morval Road must have been named after the battle of Morval of the first world war 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Morval 

I was happy as Larry with my guesswork and the only map I could find was an 1865 one where Morval Road wasn't built yet:

http://archivemaps.com/mapco/whit1865/whit74.htm

Happy as Larry that is, until I came accross a thread on here with a link to a 1901 Dalberg Road murder case on the old bailey's online records where one witness describes walking down Morval Road. Damn. Thats my theory out the window. Battle of Morval was 1916. Oh well, Back to the drawing board.

To be honest, I'm not crying out for help finding Morval Road's etymology. Thats not the aim of this thread. I like the challenge and the exploring. Thats not to say that if you know anything don't tell me. On the contrary, let me know any cool (nerdy) etymology you know. Seriously, I'm an addict. I'm just telling people what I'm up to and wondering if there are any kindred spirits around. 

My flat mates (understandably) think I'm an unbelievable geek and can't understand why I should care why a road has been named one way or another. I just can't help it though.


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## Vintage Paw (Jul 11, 2008)

You need to be writing a book.

It is fascinating, and if there isn't something out there already I reckon it's something people will want to buy. Not just of Brixton, perhaps, but a larger survey of London street etymology. This could be your life's work 

Other than that, I have nothing to add in terms of insight of help for you, I'm afraid. Good luck though, and I hope you update this thread with whatever you find


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> In recent years my addiction to the origin of words has burgeoned uncontrollably. Recently it has fused with my interest in urbanism and I have found myself glued to the internet desperately trying to descover why roads were named as they were. I grew up on Brixton Water Lane and my parents still live there. The water of that lane (the Rive Effra) is obvious enough. But what about Dalberg Road, Morval Road, Trelawn Road, Josephine Avenue, Helix Gardens, Arlingford, Brailsford, Barnwell, Appach, Rattray, Jelf!?
> 
> I realise this may not be the kind of thing that keeps anyone else awake at night but if anyone knows any of them in Brixton (or for that matter most of south london) I would be endlessly interested.
> 
> ...


 


Helix is self-explanatory


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Found a theory re:  Endymion



> Endymion Road in Brixton could just be a mythological reference, or a quiet tribute to the novel by Disraeli; but since Hyperion House is only just down Brixton Hill, I'd put my money on Keats. Endymion Road in Finsbury Park, on the other hand, is part of a whole network of Disraeli-inspired street-names: Coningsby, Tancred, Lothair, Venetia and Alroy Roads, and Sybil Mews.


 

Leander is next door


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm guessing Jebb Avenue got its name from this fella



Jebb, Sir Joshua, 1793-1863, Knight Surveyor General of Convict Prisons 

1793-1876


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## quimcunx (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Helix is self-explanatory



It's shaped like DNA?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> It's shaped like DNA?


 
What's DNA shaped like?


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## El Jefe (Jul 11, 2008)

A helix


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

El Jefe said:


> A helix


 

Yes I know that    I'm asking quim for another word 


PS:  Now I could be wrong (as I often am), but I doubt very much that when Helix Road was so-named, many people knew about DNA


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## Kizmet (Jul 11, 2008)

I totally dig the whole etymology thing... but streets? Doesn't it mostly seem to come down to some town planner bloke just being a bit bored and picking names at random?

I mean just off the Romford Road in East London there's a run of streets called First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc.. up to 7 - I think. That's got to have been done on an afternoon when he thought.. "Ah fuck it... I'm off to the pub!"


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I totally dig the whole etymology thing... but streets? Doesn't it mostly seem to come down to some town planner bloke just being a bit bored and picking names at random?
> 
> I mean just off the Romford Road in East London there's a run of streets called First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc.. up to 7 - I think. That's got to have been done on an afternoon when he thought.. "Ah fuck it... I'm off to the pub!"


 

Sounds like Brixton Market (the arcades)


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## Belushi (Jul 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> I totally dig the whole etymology thing... but streets? Doesn't it mostly seem to come down to some town planner bloke just being a bit bored and picking names at random?



I used to live in a tiny village in Wales with two streets, Wembley Avenue and Khartoum Terrace.

You can guess a lot about the history of the place from those two streetnames.


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Vintage Paw said:


> You need to be writing a book.
> 
> It is fascinating, and if there isn't something out there already I reckon it's something people will want to buy. Not just of Brixton, perhaps, but a larger survey of London street etymology. This could be your life's work
> 
> Other than that, I have nothing to add in terms of insight of help for you, I'm afraid. Good luck though, and I hope you update this thread with whatever you find



I have thought about writing a book of it yeah. I've bought everything I can find about London's naming and there is some good stuff but most of it focuses on place name etymology rather than getting as specific as road names.  Discovering London Street Names by John Wittich is the closest thing to what I'm doing and it doesn't cover many roads. Its a small book.



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Helix is self-explanatory



Helix road has one bend in it. It looks nothing like a Helix.



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Found a theory re:  Endymion
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm guessing Jebb Avenue got its name from this fella
> Jebb, Sir Joshua, 1793-1863, Knight Surveyor General of Convict Prisons
> 
> 1793-1876



Good work. Love it.



Kizmet said:


> I totally dig the whole etymology thing... but streets? Doesn't it mostly seem to come down to some town planner bloke just being a bit bored and picking names at random?
> 
> I mean just off the Romford Road in East London there's a run of streets called First Avenue, Second Avenue, etc.. up to 7 - I think. That's got to have been done on an afternoon when he thought.. "Ah fuck it... I'm off to the pub!"



Yeah some of them are boring as hell. I know. But some of them have a great story behind them and you find out a bit of local history, often concerning a business, or building, or river, that used to be there. Tonnes of the residential streets that were built all together by developers do just come from whoever they wanted to name it after but even that can be interesting at times, if only to read about some obscure scottish poet who the developer may have admired, or something.



Belushi said:


> I used to live in a tiny village in Wales with two streets, Wembley Avenue and Khartoum Terrace.
> 
> You can guess a lot about the history of the place from those two streetnames.



Yeah, London has absolutely tonnes of Roads named after other places, I love how studying the most mundane, local things sends you off learning about far away places.


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## bluestreak (Jul 11, 2008)

I love the etymology of streetnames too.  if that makes me a geek, then twist my arm and steal my lunch money.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I have thought about writing a book of it yeah. I've bought everything I can find about London's naming and there is some good stuff but most of it focuses on place name etymology rather than getting as specific as road names. Discovering London Street Names by John Wittich is the closest thing to what I'm doing and it doesn't cover many roads. Its a small book.
> 
> 
> 
> Helix road has one bend in it. It looks nothing like a Helix.


 

No it doesn't.  It has two bends


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> I love the etymology of streetnames too. if that makes me a geek, then twist my arm and steal my lunch money.


 

I've got a book at home about the origin of City of London names


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## Kizmet (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Yeah some of them are boring as hell. I know. But some of them have a great story behind them and you find out a bit of local history, often concerning a business, or building, or river, that used to be there. Tonnes of the residential streets that were built all together by developers do just come from whoever they wanted to name it after but even that can be interesting at times, if only to read about some obscure scottish poet who the developer may have admired, or something.



Nah. I'm only joshing you. 

It depends on the areas too, I'd imagine. Some of the street names around aldgate and the city are very interesting.


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## Structaural (Jul 11, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I used to live in a tiny village in Wales with two streets, Wembley Avenue and Khartoum Terrace.
> 
> You can guess a lot about the history of the place from those two streetnames.



That is tiny, only two streets!


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No it doesn't.  It has two bends



Ok you win. It has two bends in it. It doesn't look one bit like a Helix though does it? A helix is "a continuous and uniform turn of constant radius, generally over more than 360º."

The road could be named after a planetary nebula in the Aquarius constellation, or the Helix genus of snails (that would be funny) but I doubt it. Its probably someone's surname:




			
				http://www.surnamedb.com/surname.aspx?name=Helix said:
			
		

> Surname: Helix
> This rare and unusual name is of early medieval English origin, and is a topographical surname acquired in the first instances by someone who lived in a recessed, retired place, a "nook". The derivation is from the Middle English term "halke", itself a derivative of the Olde English pre 7th Century "halh, healh", corner, angle, retired or secret place. Topographical surnames were among the earliest created, since both natural and man-made features in the landscape provided obvious and convenient distinguishing names in the small communities of the Middle Ages. The surname is found mainly in the southern counties of England, and has a variety of different forms, illustrated by the following examples (the plural forms represent the genitive case, "of the halke"): Thomas Halkes (1591, Devonshire); Johne Hawlker (1598, Gloucestershire); Hugh Hawker (1605, Somerset); and Ann Halks (1732, Devonshire). Recordings of the name from London Church Registers include the christening of Rebeccah, daughter of John and Sarah Helks, at St. Adke's, Hoxton, on May 24th 1736, and the christening of Mary Ann, daughter of Solomon and Elizabeth Helks, at St. Martin in the Fields, on January 22nd 1781. The first recorded spelling of the family name is shown to be that of Margerye Haulke, which was dated January 19th 1579, marriage to Robert Jefferye, at St. Breock, Cornwall, during the reign of Queen Elizabeth 1, known as "Good Queen Bess", 1558 - 1603. Surnames became necessary when governments introduced personal taxation. In England this was known as Poll Tax. Throughout the centuries, surnames in every country have continued to "develop" often leading to astonishing variants of the original spelling.





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've got a book at home about the origin of City of London names



Sound like my cup of tea. Who is it by? Is it still in print?


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## Belushi (Jul 11, 2008)

Structaural said:


> That is tiny, only two streets!



Its actually only one street, one end has a different name to the other!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Ok you win. It has two bends in it. It doesn't look one bit like a Helix though does it? A helix is "a continuous and uniform turn of constant radius, generally over more than 360º."


 

ahem.  Apologies please   (My sister lived on one of the bends for years so I should know)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Sound like my cup of tea. Who is it by? Is it still in print?


 

No idea.  It's probably 40+ years old.  It's a little hardback that my grandfather used to own.  It's quite battered.


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Kizmet said:


> Nah. I'm only joshing you.
> 
> It depends on the areas too, I'd imagine. Some of the street names around aldgate and the city are very interesting.



Oh yes indeed. The older parts of london are dripping with exciting streetname etymologies. Cheapside, Honey Lane, Bread Street and Milk Street are only the top of the ice berg. You learn of Druids, Celts, Romans, Mithraic cults, and all sorts. There is enough to keep me busy for a life time.


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## Belushi (Jul 11, 2008)

I'm always disappointed that the Victorians hanged the name of Gropecunt Lane, the London home of medieval prostitutes.


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No idea.  It's probably 40+ years old.  It's a little hardback that my grandfather used to own.  It's quite battered.



But surely it has the authors name on it? With that I could find out for myself whether its in print or not.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> But surely it has the authors name on it? With that I could find out for myself whether its in print or not.


 

I'm not at home so can't tell you the author as I don't remember

How about this one?

http://www.bookrabbit.com/catalogue/detail/bookid/768854


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I'm always disappointed that the Victorians hanged the name of Gropecunt Lane, the London home of medieval prostitutes.



Yeah thats one of my favourites. That gets even the hardened etymology-haters listening:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Yeah thats one of my favourites. That gets even the hardened etymology-haters listening:
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gropecunt_Lane


 

and the Piss/Pissing Alleys


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not at home so can't tell you the author as I don't remember
> 
> How about this one?
> 
> http://www.bookrabbit.com/catalogue/detail/bookid/768854



Yeah I mentioned it above, I own that. Its alright in places but it could be a lot bigger and some of the entries are really crap - like he talks about what used to be on the road and forgets all about the name itself. Disappointing. Its not bereft of merit though. It has its moment.


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## tarannau (Jul 11, 2008)

What's with the Scottish type names just off Windrush Square, or at least Saltoun and Rattray anyway.

What's all that about?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

tarannau said:


> What's with the Scottish type names just off Windrush Square, or at least Saltoun and Rattray anyway.
> 
> What's all that about?


 

Maybe when they build a new lot of roads they keep a theme or something (eg. why Poets Corner?)

Why Endymion and Leander next to each other

Same as when they name flats - after a particular theme


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Yeah I mentioned it above, I own that. Its alright in places but it could be a lot bigger and some of the entries are really crap - like he talks about what used to be on the road and forgets all about the name itself. Disappointing. Its not bereft of merit though. It has its moment.


 

Sorry, didn't see that


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe when they build a new lot of roads they keep a theme or something (eg. why Poets Corner?)
> 
> Why Endymion and Leander next to each other
> 
> Same as when they name flats - after a particular theme



I can't find anything on rattray and saltoun except, indeed, that they are scottish. Leander and Endymion elude me too. But its early days yet. The information may not be sitting there clearly for me to see. Sometimes it becomes evident through tiny little clues. I really should go to the Lambeth archives.

But yeah there certainly seem to be themes. Sometimes there are references to a certain place where a landowner is from. The Minets*, a French Huguenot family, owned the land surrounding Myatts fields. In the 19th century they started building a residential estate and the road names in the are reflect some of the names of their origin in France. Ancestors of the Minets came from Cormont, Hence Cormont Road (alongside Myatts Field). Cormont is a village in Pas-de-Calais, hence Calais Street (also alongside Myatts Field). 

*Hence the Minet Library, where the Lambeth archives are.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I can't find anything on rattray and saltoun except, indeed, that they are scottish. Leander and Endymion elude me too. But its early days yet. The information may not be sitting there clearly for me to see. Sometimes it becomes evident through tiny little clues. I really should go to the Lambeth archives.


 
Well I suppose you'll just have to guess for now like below



> Endymion Road in Brixton could just be a mythological reference, or a quiet tribute to the novel by Disraeli; but since Hyperion House is only just down Brixton Hill, I'd put my money on Keats. Endymion Road in Finsbury Park, on the other hand, is part of a whole network of Disraeli-inspired street-names: Coningsby, Tancred, Lothair, Venetia and Alroy Roads, and Sybil Mews


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## Vintage Paw (Jul 11, 2008)

I used to live on Willow Avenue. It had two houses with lots of willow trees in their gardens.


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## ringo (Jul 11, 2008)

There is a huge amount of etymology inThe London Encyclopaedia.

It's very expensive, though I think it used to be less in the Museum Of London bookshop.


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

ringo said:


> There is a huge amount of etymology inThe London Encyclopaedia.
> 
> It's very expensive, though I think it used to be less in the Museum Of London bookshop.



It is a truly wonderful book. My dad has a copy. I think its worth about that much. I've pre-ordered the new edition of it from amazon; it comes out in august I think. I can't wait.


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## teuchter (Jul 11, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I
> But yeah there certainly seem to be themes. Sometimes there are references to a certain place where a landowner is from. .



Lots of these Victorian areas were built as quite large developments quite rapidly (not unlike modern Barratt homes type developments) and the names were probably chosen at the whim of the developer/landowner. Hence bunches of adjacent streets following a certain theme. I'd guess the name choice would be based on what would sound attractive to potential buyers, and influenced by  the developer's personal fancies. His favourite author or where he went on holiday that year or whatever.

In these areas I guess it's easy to read too much into the significance of a street name.

This is rather different to older parts of towns which grew more slowly and where the names are more likely to tell you something about the actual history/previous uses of the area.


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## Etymologist (Jul 11, 2008)

teuchter said:


> Lots of these Victorian areas were built as quite large developments quite rapidly (not unlike modern Barratt homes type developments) and the names were probably chosen at the whim of the developer/landowner. Hence bunches of adjacent streets following a certain theme. I'd guess the name choice would be based on what would sound attractive to potential buyers, and influenced by  the developer's personal fancies. His favourite author or where he went on holiday that year or whatever.
> 
> In these areas I guess it's easy to read too much into the significance of a street name.
> 
> This is rather different to older parts of towns which grew more slowly and where the names are more likely to tell you something about the actual history/previous uses of the area.



Definately. But for some reason, even though many of them are likely to be whim related, I like to discover what the word is, where, what or who it refers to, even if it has nothing to tell me about local history. It is perhas a whimsical psychogeographic notion, but I think the fact that those names are there (however it came about) has an effect (perhaps unconcious) on one's experience of the place. Knowing that Dalyell road MIGHT be named after Tam Dalyell of the Binns gives me a sense that there is something of Tam still echoing about in that street, somehow, if only in my mind. And I fully realise that most people who live in or visit the street have not the faintest care what Dalyell might refer to. For most Dalyell Road is that road, and thats that.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Was just looking for that book but it must be at other flat.  However, came across "The Citties of London and Westminster:  A History" (can't remember where I came across - maybe my grandfather's).

It was taken out of the Central Information Library, British Travel Association in 1966 

Wonder how much they charge for overdue books


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## quimcunx (Jul 11, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes I know that    I'm asking quim for another word
> 
> 
> PS:  Now I could be wrong (as I often am), but I doubt very much that when Helix Road was so-named, many people knew about DNA




 Actually I should have said RNA which is shaped like a helix or spiral.  DNA is a double helix.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> Actually I should have said RNA which is shaped like a helix or spiral.  DNA is a double helix.




if you say so


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## malice (Jul 11, 2008)

I have a book sitting on my desk called "the streets of london" by S. Fairfield, published in 1983, which is quite good for this sort of stuff. Unfortunately it doesn't have much beyond the centre - so it has Effra, but not Saltoun, Rattray etc. can have a peruse through and see if I find any good ones for brixton


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## Bob (Jul 11, 2008)

.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Bob said:


> .




see post 27


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## Bob (Jul 11, 2008)

Anyone know why Poets Corner roads are named that way?

And Mayall road?

And indeed why is Herne Hill, Herne?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

Bob said:


> Anyone know why Poets Corner roads are named that way?
> 
> And Mayall road?
> 
> And indeed why is Herne Hill, Herne?




Herne Hill according to Wiki



> *Herne Hill* is located in the London Borough of Lambeth and the London Borough of Southwark in Greater London. There is a road of the same name which is part of the A215.
> 
> 
> The name Herne Hill initially appeared in 1798, when the area was farms and woodland. It has been suggested that it derives from previously being called _Heron's Hill_, as the River Effra attracted a large number of herons, but other explanations have also been suggested.



and from the Herne Hill Society:



> It may be that the river Effra - now sadly almost all underground - attracted large numbers of herons. So that a hillock by the river came to be known as Heron's Hill. Another interpretation of the name is ‘hill by a nook of land' deriving from the Old English hyrne (corner, angle) hyll. The first reference to Herne seems to be in 1798, possibly alluding to le Herne, a field in Brixton.


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## bluestreak (Jul 11, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I'm always disappointed that the Victorians hanged the name of Gropecunt Lane, the London home of medieval prostitutes.



Apparantly part of Gropecunt Lane became Threadneedle Street - an interesting pun that I'm sure doesn't need explaining and adds a new dimension to the Bank Of England being known as the "old lady of threadneedle street".


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## gaijingirl (Jul 11, 2008)

Bob said:


> Anyone know why Poets Corner roads are named that way?



no.. but I did hear this...

If you look at the Poets' Corner roads.. there is a multitude of architectural styles there.  Apparently that group of roads was used by architects to build "show-homes" to promote their wares - which were then built along entire streets in central London.

(no idea if that's true or not, but heard it from an estate agent selling houses in the area............. so probably a complete lie... )


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## oryx (Jul 11, 2008)

Back in the '90s/early 2000s I used to work for housing associations who were (& still are) major builders of new housing schemes. Which obviously needed names.

I had a bit of involvement in naming them. It went like this: think of either a) public figure associated with area, even a relatively recent one or b) check out the local history of the area and find an associated name.

I suspect that's how they did it a hundred years (or slightly more) ago.

My main two memories of being involved in naming blocks/schemes are:

- being overridden by the local authority as the proposed names were already in use

- winding up long-serving colleagues that they were going to have a scheme named after them.  Boy, that was fun.


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## Dan U (Jul 11, 2008)

good fred


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 11, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> Apparantly part of Gropecunt Lane became Threadneedle Street - an interesting pun that I'm sure doesn't need explaining and adds a new dimension to the Bank Of England being known as the "old lady of threadneedle street".


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## Dhimmi (Jul 12, 2008)

The interest expressed in the OP is exactly the kind of obsessive spoddism I heartily approve of. 

Surely Morval Road and Trelawn Road are Cornwall references? Perhaps named by a misty-eyed and homesick developer who'd made their way to London to make a packet on a few acres of rolling fields outside of the city.


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## Red Faction (Jul 12, 2008)

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...1.470156,-0.072656&spn=0.011816,0.026608&z=15

what about this one?


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## Dhimmi (Jul 12, 2008)

After John Bellenden translator to James V?


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## Etymologist (Jul 12, 2008)

gaijingirl said:


> no.. but I did hear this...
> 
> If you look at the Poets' Corner roads.. there is a multitude of architectural styles there.  Apparently that group of roads was used by architects to build "show-homes" to promote their wares - which were then built along entire streets in central London.
> 
> (no idea if that's true or not, but heard it from an estate agent selling houses in the area............. so probably a complete lie... )



If an estate agent said it I would think it is a lie. It is a clever lie though, a nice one. If you look at the houses on shakespeare road (the only one I can summon properly to memory at this moment, having walked down it more than the others) the houses certainly aren't uniform. I really hope its true but estate agents in my experience don't know anything. Or if they do, they don't tell you the truth.



oryx said:


> Back in the '90s/early 2000s I used to work for housing associations who were (& still are) major builders of new housing schemes. Which obviously needed names.
> 
> I had a bit of involvement in naming them. It went like this: think of either a) public figure associated with area, even a relatively recent one or b) check out the local history of the area and find an associated name.
> 
> ...



That is very interesting. I've always wondered about that. I have found that some long serving councillors do get little roads names after them. I remember seeing a road somewhere near Canning town called "Councillor [insert name I've forgotten] close". I thought it hilariously bad naming. Burgess Park is named after a councillor I think, or a mayor of camberwell or something. I forget. 



Dhimmi said:


> The interest expressed in the OP is exactly the kind of obsessive spoddism I heartily approve of.
> 
> Surely Morval Road and Trelawn Road are Cornwall references? Perhaps named by a misty-eyed and homesick developer who'd made their way to London to make a packet on a few acres of rolling fields outside of the city.



Ah ha! Good work. So Morval and Trelawn are both parts of Cornwall. How did I miss that. I obviously need to brush up on my googling skills.



Red Faction said:


> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?hl=en...1.470156,-0.072656&spn=0.011816,0.026608&z=15
> 
> what about this one?



Hahah, I doubt very much that is london's medieval area for male prostitutes. I know no one suggested that but it seemed to be come sort of rejoinder to Gropecunt Lane. I wonder how long people have used to term 'bell end'? It probably is one of those Scottish writers, William or John Bellenden, as suggested above.

Check out this roadname. Makes me laugh, sounds like rudeboys should live there just so that when people say where do you live they can rudely respond "whatman!": 
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h....044761&spn=0.009949,0.022531&z=15&iwloc=addr


----------



## oryx (Jul 12, 2008)

Not a Brixton street name, but......

In my home town there is a street with my (highly unusual) surname.

I have no idea how it was thus named. I seem to remember asking my dad when he was alive, & he didn't know - even though he was an obsessive spod (to quote indirectly from Dhimmi! ) about local history.

I'll be trawling spoddishly through this thread for ideas on where to look.....


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## Dhimmi (Jul 13, 2008)

Well if you feel I'm safe to know your surname pm me the relevant details and I'll have a spod at it. 

My latest fave was Baroness von Varo, which someone chirped up about on a history site, who was apparently in the Fuhrerbunker during the last days of the Third Reich, and no one knew who she was... took two months to track her details down and if it's googled now it comes in at number one not just as the original unanswered question. Amateur history on the web is bleeding marvelous.


----------



## Etymologist (Jul 14, 2008)

http://www.catb.org/esr/jargon/html/S/spod.html


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## talawa (Jul 14, 2008)

does glenelg mean any thing or just made up Palindrome


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 14, 2008)

oryx said:


> Not a Brixton street name, but......
> 
> In my home town there is a street with my (highly unusual) surname.
> 
> ...


 

What was the name then?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 14, 2008)

talawa said:


> does glenelg mean any thing or just made up Palindrome


 

Another Scottish one.  That's off Acre Lane isn't it?  And then there's Gleneldon Road off Streatham.


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2008)

talawa said:


> does glenelg mean any thing or just made up Palindrome



Glenelg is a place and is famous for being a palindrome as well as being the most fun way to get to/from the Isle of Skye, on this little ferry:







The pub in Glenelg village has a reputation for being a little wild at times.

Glenelg is also known for its Brochs.


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## Etymologist (Jul 16, 2008)

malice said:


> I have a book sitting on my desk called "the streets of london" by S. Fairfield, published in 1983, which is quite good for this sort of stuff. Unfortunately it doesn't have much beyond the centre - so it has Effra, but not Saltoun, Rattray etc. can have a peruse through and see if I find any good ones for brixton



As soon as you mentioned this book I bought it online. It has just arrived and its amazing. True, it doesn't delve deep into the south london back streets but it has most of the main roads. I'm impressed. Its far better than '(Discovering) London Street Names' by John Wittich. Cheers for the tip off.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2008)

Bung me a list of names you're interested in...there's an old (1930s iirc) Dictionary of National Biography at work with a fair few volumes. Might turn up something.


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## lang rabbie (Jul 16, 2008)

Arodene has me stumped


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 17, 2008)

lang rabbie said:


> Arodene has me stumped




Maybe the Luftwaffe dropped lots of dogs there during the war?


----------



## Etymologist (Jul 17, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Bung me a list of names you're interested in...there's an old (1930s iirc) Dictionary of National Biography at work with a fair few volumes. Might turn up something.



Jelf Road. I've always found that such a funny name (both funny haha and funny weird). If you find anyone named Jelf rememer the road was already there in 1901. Its mentioned in this court case:

http://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t19010722-579-offence-1&div=t19010722-579#highlight

Um... Mervan, Kellett, Saltoun, Dalberg, Probert, Talma, Baytree, Sudbourne, Hayter, Winslade... I could go on forever. Any Brixton Road.

I don't know how useful it will be looking them up though. As a few people have pointed out, the victorian developers didn't always do too much thinking about the name, perhaps some of them just wanted to make it sound nice and sell some houses. In the book that someone reccomended above, The streets of london (Sheila Fairfield), the introduction talks about the many victorian suburban street names that wer chosen without too much thought and so are not interesting on a local history level. Alothough my primary motivation is local history, I'm still interested to hear who/what/where the developer might have been thinking of when they named a road.



lang rabbie said:


> Arodene has me stumped



Perhaps it was the developers favourite breed of dog.


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## quimcunx (Jul 17, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Perhaps it was the developers favourite breed of dog.



Maybe. 



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe the Luftwaffe dropped lots of dogs there during the war?



but I like this story better. 



(((((WWII era arodene dogs))))


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## Etymologist (Jul 17, 2008)

But Arodene Road is probably prewar no? I'm just guessing wildly there. I like the dog story too.

I wonder who it was that got to chose the writers who give their names to the close's off shakespeare road:

Derek Walcott, Louise Bennett, Alice Walker, Walt Whitman, Langston Hughes, and Pablo Neruda.

Cordelia Close on the other side is a nice shakespearian touch. And I think I saw the developers advertising hoarding say that the new close (currently being built) is going to be called Poets Mews* or something. I may have mis-remembered that. The new Close is question is here:

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&h...496&spn=0.002433,0.004678&t=h&z=18&iwloc=addr

*That new book I've bought (at the suggestion of another urban-forumite and keep going on about) explains that 'mews' originally meant somewhere where hawks were kept (before it became where horses were kept).


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## boohoo (Jul 17, 2008)

In Stockwell, Paradise Street is named after the fields that were there. Bedford Road after the Duke who owned the land. Larkhall for the name of the building hall that was there. However can't find where the name Babilon (which there is no evidence in the street names) comes from. It's the area around Clapham north and is marked on the old maps - it's the Duke of Bedford's land.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 17, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> but I like this story better.
> 
> 
> 
> (((((WWII era arodene dogs))))




That's where the term "dogs of war" comes from.


----------



## detective-boy (Jul 17, 2008)

Always worth looking at old maps (at various stages of development), looking for names of farms, big houses, woods, streams, etc. - I have found quite a few of them built into modern names, or at least giving a bit of a clue.  Sometimes they have been bastardised (e.g. Paddenswick Road in Hammersmith seems to come from Palingswick (or something, I haven't got it in front of me) which was associated with the area when it was fields.

It is fascinating though - especially when there is some totally random explanation (e.g. there are roads called Manoel Road, Portugal Gardens and Lisbon Avenue near me - it turns out there was some exiled King Manoel of Portugal who was relocated to some big house which used to be there).


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## ringo (Jul 17, 2008)

Some bits and pieces about Loughborough Junction - named after Loughborough House, a mansion which was situated roughly where the former Loughborough Hotel stands. The region was known more as Cold Harbour before the railway junction was built.

Denmark Hill - said to have acquired its name from Queen Anne‘s husband, Prince George of Denmark, who hunted there in the 17th Century.

There is also Denmark Road and the Thorlands (eg Thor's Land) Estate on Flaxman Road where I live has blocks called Baltic House, Bergen House, Dane House, Elsinore House, Jutland House, Mercia House, Narvic House, Nobel House, Nobel House, Norse House, Odin House, Oslo House, Viking House and Zealand House.

Flaxman Road - Possibly after John Flaxman (6 July 1755 - 7 December 1826), an English sculptor and draughtsman?

Carew Street - Possibly John Carew (1622-1660), a Cornish MP who was hanged, drawn and quartered for trying to kill King Charles 1? Not sure if planners could get away with that though, might count as sedition or somesuch.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jul 17, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> But Arodene Road is probably prewar no? I'm just guessing wildly there. I like the dog story too.



The road was laid out in 1891.




			
				Lambeth's Rush Common Conservation Area appraisal said:
			
		

> The fundamental influence upon the development of this neighbourhood was the Inclosure Act of 1806 which protected Rush Common.  Following the passing of this Act, the development of the area can be divided into four distinct phases:
> (a) the construction of townhouses for wealthy inhabitants in a linear form along the two main roads, set back from the common, in the early 1800's (which have virtually all been demolished) .
> (b) the building of a few streets of artisan housing in the 1850's, such as Archbishop's Place (begun in the early 1850's) - perhaps partly to serve the wealthier carriage-owning residents, terraces of slightly grander houses along Elm Park and Upper Tulse Hill and the construction of the magnificent early Victorian Christ Church;
> (c) the rapid development of attractive Victorian terraced housing (e.g. Ostade Road and Craster Road in 1876, Endymion Road in 1881, Beechdale Road in 1891 and Arodene Road in 1891) for the artisan and middle classes and the erection of elegant late Victorian shopping parades and public houses (particularly on Brixton Hill) following the arrival of the railways in the mid 1860's and the introduction of trams between Brixton and Westminster Bridge in 1870. These improvements in transport allowed better paid clerks and other workers employed in Central London to move into the suburbs. ...
> (d) the contribution to the character of the neighbourhood by a number of prominent developments in the first half of the Twentieth Century   [mostly the mansion blocks rather than street - LR]





Etymologist said:


> I wonder who it was that got to chose the writers who give their names to the close's off shakespeare road:
> 
> Derek Walcott, Louise Bennett, Alice Walker, Walt Whitman, Langston Hughes, and Pablo Neruda.



I can just imagine the thinking needed to get the two white males onto the list past the cultural commissars of Lambeth in the 1980s- presumably Whitman was claimed for "queer poetry" and Neruda because his funeral turned into the first anti-Pincochet protest after the overthrow of Allende.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

I know that Coldharbour lane was originally Cool Arbour Lane because I found an 18th century reference to it in a book of natural history (referring to the Camberwell beauty butterfly iirc)


----------



## Structaural (Jul 18, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> Actually I should have said RNA which is shaped like a helix or spiral.  DNA is a double helix.



It could be a reference to snails: _Helix aspersa_.


----------



## Structaural (Jul 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I know that Coldharbour lane was originally Cool Arbour Lane because I found an 18th century reference to it in a book of natural history (referring to the Camberwell beauty butterfly iirc)


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Structaural said:


> It could be a reference to snails: _Helix aspersa_.


Or Ivy, Hedera helix.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

I believe the blocks on the New Loughborough Estate are named after dissenting bishops of the 1700s eg Bishop Secker.


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## Etymologist (Jul 18, 2008)

Structaural said:


> It could be a reference to snails: _Helix aspersa_.



I already mentioned the snail.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Jelf Road. I've always found that such a funny name (both funny haha and funny weird). If you find anyone named Jelf rememer the road was already there in 1901.


Jelf is actually reasonably easy. I have a recent Concise Dictionary of National Biography at home. Only three volumes but the Jelfs are in there. All related. Two brothers; Richard 1798-1871, and William 1811-1875 and George 1834-1908, son of Richard. All scholars and churchmen. Richard was principal of King's College London, amongst many other things so he seems to be the most likely. He appears the most distinguished of the three. He also had a lot of influence through his popular devotional publications and tracts.


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## Structaural (Jul 18, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I already mentioned the snail.



Oh.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> whatman


Famous paper manufacturer. Not in any dictionary but it's still sold for watercolourists to use. One type is called Whatman Not, which means it's not hot-pressed. Hot-pressed paper has a smoother surface.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

....and Appach is a surname....

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/cgi-bin/sse.dll?gsfn=Sybil+Mary&gsln=Appach&db=uki1901&gss=seo&hc=20


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Oh, and any reference to Minet are the philanthropic Huguenot family of the area. Buildings they paid for always have a cat on them. There are plenty around Myatt's Field Park.There are some mansion flats with stone cats on the roof. There's still a charitable local trust set up by the Minet family.


eta
 just seen your post about the Minet family, Etymologist 
Still, I did manage to add some extra info.


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## poster342002 (Jul 18, 2008)

What the hell is Robsart Street all about, then?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Lady Amye Dudley who was believed to have been murdered in 1560 by her husband Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester was Amye Robsart till she married him. Robert Dudley was a favourite of Queen Elizabeth 1st. I have no idea if there's a connection though.


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## nick h. (Jul 18, 2008)

I'm in Dalberg Rd and have been distressed to discover that the only big shot Dalberg around at the time the house was built was a British aristo who added the name as a double-barrelled bit because daddy married some Kraut Countess. For fuck's sake, it's as bad as being in Saxe-Coburg-Gotha-Windsor Avenue. 

Burn them, burn them.


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## poster342002 (Jul 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Lady Amye Dudley who was believed to have been murdered in 1560 by her husband Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester was Amye Robsart till she married him. Robert Dudley was a favourite of Queen Elizabeth 1st. I have no idea if there's a connection though.



Interesting.


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## poster342002 (Jul 18, 2008)

What about Rattray Road? Were there once "rat trays" of some sort there? Maybe a means of trapping rats?


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## nick h. (Jul 18, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> What about Rattray Road? Were there once "rat trays" of some sort there? Maybe a means of trapping rats?



Rat Trays are still kept by every resident - it's a condition of the freehold.  The council insisted on it when granting planning permission because there has always been a large rat population in the pipes and drains which the River Effra was routed through.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Thomas Rattray (1684-1743) was a Scottish bishop, there was also a Sylvester Rattray who wrote a couple of medical treatises in the mid 17th century.


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## Etymologist (Jul 18, 2008)

*whatman*



Mrs Magpie said:


> Famous paper manufacturer. Not in any dictionary but it's still sold for watercolourists to use. One type is called Whatman Not, which means it's not hot-pressed. Hot-pressed paper has a smoother surface.



Amazing. I love it. Whatmam's website has a rather surprising history section all about James Whatman, their beloved founder of the 1740s:

http://www.whatman.com/History.aspx


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## Etymologist (Jul 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Oh, and any reference to Minet are the philanthropic Huguenot family of the area. Buildings they paid for always have a cat on them. There are plenty around Myatt's Field Park.There are some mansion flats with stone cats on the roof. There's still a charitable local trust set up by the Minet family.
> 
> 
> eta
> ...



You did indeed, apparently the cats are up on their buildings becuase minet is the equivalent of "pussy" (or should I say "kitty" so as not to offend?) in french.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 18, 2008)

Well, sort of, it's actually minou, but yes, the fact it sounds a bit like minou is the cat connection


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## poster342002 (Jul 18, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Thomas Rattray (1684-1743) was a Scottish bishop, there was also a Sylvester Rattray who wrote a couple of medical treatises in the mid 17th century.



Thanks again.


----------



## poster342002 (Jul 18, 2008)

nick h. said:


> Rat Trays are still kept by every resident - it's a condition of the freehold.  The council insisted on it when granting planning permission because there has always been a large rat population in the pipes and drains which the River Effra was routed through.



Hmmmm ... are you serious or just havig me on?


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## Etymologist (Jul 18, 2008)

poster342002 said:


> Hmmmm ... are you serious or just havig me on?



He's having you on.


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## brixtonvilla (Jul 18, 2008)

Medora Road has always puzzled me. Can't find a reference anywhere. Unless it's named after some small villages in minor states of the US, which I doubt.


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## brixtonvilla (Jul 18, 2008)

On the subject of Helix road, it all comes from the Greek _helicos_, meaning turning/spinning. Except that Helix Road doesn't, really.


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## lang rabbie (Jul 19, 2008)

brixtonvilla said:


> Medora Road has always puzzled me. Can't find a reference anywhere. Unless it's named after some small villages in minor states of the US, which I doubt.



She is a character (soprano) - in  Verdi's neglected early opera _Il Carsaro_, which is loosely based on Byron's play _Corsair_.   Medora is the young lover of Corrado, captain of the pirates.

However, Googling reveals that the character of Medora also appears in the ballet version - _Le Corsaire_ -danced to music by Adolphe Adam, now better known as the composer of _Giselle_.    I suspect this was how the name was known in late Victorian England.


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## brixtonvilla (Jul 19, 2008)

Thanks for that, LR. You clever.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 19, 2008)

Ackshirley it's Il Corsaro...well, I think so, it's not actually listed in my copy of Kobbé's Complete Book of Opera....obviously not that complete....


----------



## lang rabbie (Jul 19, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Ackshirley it's Il Corsaro...well, I think so, it's not actually listed in my copy of Kobbé's Complete Book of Opera....obviously not that complete....



Indeed it is.  

I just had difficulty "typing in a straight line" after a combination of gins + tonic while Prom listening followed by a couple of ales catching up with a mate later

Of course, if there was a local developer who was naming roads after characters from Keats poetry,  it is just as possible that he might have read Byron's original _The Corsair_.

Although it had been a best seller back in 1814, I may have wrongly  assumed that Byron's reputation in the 1880s was at its nadir hen Brixton Hill side streets were being built.


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## Etymologist (Jul 21, 2008)

Horsford Road could be named after Sir John Horsford (1751–1817), army officer in the East India Company, 

Or perhaps its just the place in Norfolk:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horsford


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## Etymologist (Jul 21, 2008)

Looking into the many possible Lambert's who might have inspired the naming of Lambert Road I've come across quite a fascinating man. Daniel Lambert (1770-1809) whose fame rests on the fact that he 'attained the acme of mortal hugeness' (according to a newspaper of the time). In 1806  Lambert decided to profit from what had until then been simply unpleasant corpulence and had a special carriage built in which he went to London. Here, he began ‘receiving company’ from midday until  5pm in a house at 53 Piccadilly. When sitting’ (according to one account) ‘he appears to be a stupendous mass of flesh, for his thighs are so covered by his belly that nothing but his knees are to be seen, while the flesh of his legs, which resemble pillows, projects in such a manner as to nearly bury his feet’.

http://images.google.co.uk/images?h...&sa=X&oi=image_result_group&resnum=1&ct=title

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Lambert


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## Belushi (Jul 21, 2008)

I think it was Defoe who described London as 'the Daniel Lambert of Cities'.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 21, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Horsford Road could be named after Sir John Horsford


I think more likely it's Sir Alfred Hastings Horsford (1818-1885) Crimea, siege of Lucknow etc.


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## Etymologist (Jul 21, 2008)

Belushi said:


> I think it was Defoe who described London as 'the Daniel Lambert of Cities'.



It was actually George Meredith who described London as the "Daniel Lambert of cities". 

Herbert Spencer used the phrase "a Daniel Lambert of learning."



Mrs Magpie said:


> I think more likely it's Sir Alfred Hastings Horsford (1818-1885) Crimea, siege of Lucknow etc.



Fair enough. It would appear you have an ODNB sub too then?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 21, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I have a recent Concise Dictionary of National Biography at home. Only three volumes


Lucky me...the really big edition at is work....


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 21, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Sound like my cup of tea. Who is it by? Is it still in print?




Dug this book out tonight (City of London street names).  It's by F H Habben.  Looks like it left the library in 1952


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## Etymologist (Jul 22, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Dug this book out tonight (City of London street names).  It's by F H Habben.  Looks like it left the library in 1952



Amazing. Thanks for the tip off. I just bought a first edition (1896) of it off amazon for £20. I reckon I'm allowed to spend so willynilly: I haven't drank in 2 months: I deserve a reward.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 22, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> Amazing. Thanks for the tip off. I just bought a first edition (1896) of it off amazon for £20. I reckon I'm allowed to spend so willynilly: I haven't drank in 2 months: I deserve a reward.


 

Mine's a brown hardback, it's struggling to not fall to pieces 

PS:  It does look like it's only City of London street names rather than London ones


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## Etymologist (Jul 22, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> PS:  It does look like it's only City of London street names rather than London ones



I know, thats fine with me.


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## Crispy (Jul 28, 2008)

I think Brailsford road must be on the site of an actual ford crossing the Effra, as it appears to run directly under it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 28, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I know, thats fine with me.


 

You got it yet?


----------



## Etymologist (Jul 28, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I think Brailsford road must be on the site of an actual ford crossing the Effra, as it appears to run directly under it.



For some reason the picture you've loaded is blocked by the IT people at my work. The pull out map at the back of 'The Lost Rivers of London' by N.J. Barton has the Effra going down Dulwhich road and then down Dalberg and Rattray as far as I remember. But to be honest I haven't got it with me at the moment so I may have forgotten another tributary. In fact, the the pathetic dribble of a stream with a lovely little bridge in Brockwell Park is said to be part of the Effra and that is flowing straight towards Brailsford so it looks like I've proved myself wrong within a paragraph.



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You got it yet?



I got one of those annoying little red postcards from royal mail saying that I wasn't in when they called so I have to go and get it from the camberwell station road sorting office at some point. Thats not on my way anywhere so I'll have to lug my lazy bones down there at some point.


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## Crispy (Jul 28, 2008)

Work now? You can see Brailsford road crosses over at the confluence of the 'dribble' from the park.


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## Etymologist (Jul 28, 2008)

The picture is still not working for me but I'll have a look later at home. The firewall is probably confused. So ... brails ford, where brails were used to catch fish? a Brail, according to dictionary.com is 'A small net for drawing fish from a trap or a larger net into a boat'. Doesn't sound quite right since you wouldn't be able to sail a boat somewhere that a river could be forded could you? (I'm just guessing here, I don't know about rivers). Or perhaps you can use a brail without a boat. Or perhaps you can use a brail in a tiny rowing boat. I'm guessing there were fish in the effra. I don't see why there wouldn't have been. Perhaps Brails was a surname of the landonwner? Or Brail, perhaps?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 28, 2008)

Brailsford is both a surname and a place oop north. I think rivers and tribs were already underground by the time Brailsford Road was built.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 28, 2008)

more likely explanation wins


----------



## lang rabbie (Jul 28, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Brailsford is both a surname and a place oop north. I think rivers and tribs were already underground by the time Brailsford Road was built.



Most Brailsfords are good Midland folk from the Derbyshire and Nottinghamshire borders - I had a crush on one at the age of 11  - so just into DH Lawrence and black pudding country but not quite "oop north".



> English: Habitation name from a place in Derbyshire, so called from Old English brœgels, a metathesized form of bœrgels, itself a byform of byrgels tumulus, barrow + ford FORD. The name is still found chiefly in the East Midlands, especially Nottingham.


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## lang rabbie (Jul 28, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I think rivers and tribs were already underground by the time Brailsford Road was built.



This reference seems to imply recollection of something already long disappeared:



> A woman at 32 Tulse Hill in 1891 described a stream that had flowed across the end of her garden, and said that the banks could still be seen in Leander Road.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 29, 2008)

lang rabbie said:


> not quite "oop north".


It's very oop north for someone in sahf London!


----------



## Moonchild (Jul 30, 2008)

Sorry to return to the Medora Road one, but... there's definitely an early 19th century literary connection in the road names round there. Byron - supposed illegitimate daughter had middle name of Medora, born shortly after he wrote Corsair, wherein there is also a Medora. Keats - Endymion, written 1818, "On a Picture of Leander" 1816. 

Neither of them ever wrote a poem featuring an "Elm Park" so it could be a pure coincidence, or perhaps other streets originally in the "set" were renamed latterly (to honour local councillors etc...) Pure speculation, nothing to base it on.


----------



## Etymologist (Jul 30, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> Sorry to return to the Medora Road one, but... there's definitely an early 19th century literary connection in the road names round there. Byron - supposed illegitimate daughter had middle name of Medora, born shortly after he wrote Corsair, wherein there is also a Medora. Keats - Endymion, written 1818, "On a Picture of Leander" 1816.



Wonderful work. Absolutely wonderful. Thank you.


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## teuchter (Jul 30, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> Neither of them ever wrote a poem featuring an "Elm Park" so it could be a pure coincidence, or perhaps other streets originally in the "set" were renamed latterly (to honour local councillors etc...) Pure speculation, nothing to base it on.



Elm Park pre-existed any of those roads.

I have an old map from 1870 which shows Elm Park (then called Elm Grove) and Brixton Water Lane but nothing in between.

On the 1894 map, Endymion Rd, Leander Rd, Helix Rd, Josephine Avenue and all the streets in between have appeared.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2008)

A good summary of the development of that part of Brixton is to be found here by the way (open the pdf):

http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/.../BrixtonHillAndRushCommonConservationArea.htm


> In the early 1850's the charming Archbishop's Place was begun - small two  storey semi-detached cottages in a simple vernacular style set back from the road behind  generous country cottage style front gardens, (see photographs 10 -12) They were reputedly built  for the staff of a large old house called The Elms which stood halfway along the present Elm Park.  Josephine Avenue was carefully planned in the late 1860's to respect the building exclusion zone  as laid down in the Rush Common Act 60 years before,





> This generous layout was continued westwards later in  the Century when Helix Gardens was laid out in the 1890's, although these terraced properties are  of a much more elaborate design with gothic arches above the first floor windows filled in with  decorative vertical clay tile hung spandrels, (see photos 15 -17) This design is continued along the  northern end of Arodene Road. (see photo 18)  At the eastern end of Elm Park later Nineteenth Century development of the cl870's took the form  of some very impressive terraces of 3 storey houses with grand 4 storey gabled sections





> The residential roads between Helix Gardens and Elm Park were rapidly developed in a very short  period between about 1875 and 1895





> These avenues represent an excellent example of  late Victorian inventiveness -the final flowering of the gothic influence before the Queen Ann and  neo-Georgian styles became more popular in the later 1890's. These include Arodene Road  (1891) - (photos 23 & 24) and Leander Road (1876-88)





> A particularly attractive domestic architectural group stands at the eastern end of Endymion Road  which was laid out in 1881


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## lang rabbie (Jul 31, 2008)

*In search of Arodene*

After eliminating all the German Shepherd dogs, all I can find is this in one of the tellings of The Cuchullin Saga, which I have an ugly suspicion could be a scanning error:




			
				 e-text of Tochmarc Emire la Coinculaind (Harl. 5280) said:
			
		

> Coin Culaind de tochmarc ndo, ar bo derb leo conod lucchaide rosoigfed millid a n-ingenraide & foemod sercie a mban fer dia mbe setig a coimfrestoil occo, & ba soédh leu mochercrai ocai , corb acobar leo ar an foáth sen toabairt mna ndo, fodég co farcbod comorbo. Ar ro fedatar is vadh bodesin nobíad a athcin .
> 
> Dobreta ierum Conchobor nonbur uad cevca cuiccid a n-Erinn de cungid mna de Coin Culaind dús in faigepdis indach primbaili no primdunod a n-Erinn ingen rig no roflathav no prugad de nech bud ail do togai & de tocmarc n-dou. Tancotor ulie na teachtai diblionoip & ni fuarotar ingen bud togai la Coin Culaind de tocmarc n-do.
> 
> ...



Anyone good on middle-Irish.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

No, but I've got a Gaelic dictionary somewhere downstairs...wait a tick...


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

Nope, nothing remotely like it.....


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

I've come across this though...evidence of it being around as a name in Victorian times....
http://loricase.com/gedcom/fam07283.htm


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

...which makes me wonder if it's being pronounced correctly...arrow-dean isn't very girly, is it, maybe it's arodeena? Which would be the German pronunciation, if there's a German connection beyond Alsatians.
I know Knollys Road is largely mispronounced and should be knowles as in Pepys being peeps...anyway, I digress.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

Just to list some books I looked in and found nowt to save others time.....Arodene is not in the indices of; Hymns Ancient & Modern (wondered if it was the name of a hymn tune), The London Encyclopaedia, Kobbes Complete Opera Book, Concise Dict. Nat. Biog.


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## teuchter (Jul 31, 2008)

Mrs Magpie has been talking to herself for nearly two hours now!!

Anyway,



Mrs Magpie said:


> I've come across this though...evidence of it being around as a name in Victorian times....
> http://loricase.com/gedcom/fam07283.htm



Personally, I'd put my money on it being the name of the developer's daughter, or something like that.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

teuchter said:


> Mrs Magpie has been talking to herself for nearly two hours now!!


au contraire, I've been communing with the bookshelves!

I've been moving loads of books from the sitting room to the boxroom where my laptop is, and this thread is an occasional distraction.


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## teuchter (Jul 31, 2008)

lang rabbie said:


> After eliminating all the German Shepherd dogs, all I can find is this in one of the tellings of The Cuchullin Saga, which I have an ugly suspicion could be a scanning error:
> 
> 
> 
> Anyone good on middle-Irish.



I have stumbled across another reference to that same passage. See page 29 of this pdf:

http://www.ucc.ie/academic/smg/CDI/PDFs_textarchive/Meyer_Mitteilungen_ZCP3.pdf

There is a footnote (17) referring to the word "arodene" which says:



> Lies _ar a déni_ (U) oder _ar rodéni_.



Which means "Read _ar a déni_ or _ar rodéni_"

Which I think implies it's a mis-spelling of something else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2008)

I'm gone on to Ancestry and put in Arodene, Arodean, Arrowdean as a surname and nothing came up.   There was 1 result for Aroden and that's in the US


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## Crispy (Jul 31, 2008)

There's loads of -dene place and road names in Brighton


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2008)

Crispy said:


> There's loads of -dene place and road names in Brighton


 

Wiki

The *Dene* (*Dené*) are an aboriginal group of First Nations that live primarily in the Arctic regions of Canada. _Dene_ is a compound of two words: _De_ means "flow" and _Ne_ meaning "Mother Earth".[1]


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2008)

DENE = English sand hill 
DENE = low sand dune 
DENE = low sandhill
DENE = sand hill
DENE = sandy stretch of beach


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## Crispy (Jul 31, 2008)

hmmm. not many of those on brixton hill!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2008)

Crispy said:


> hmmm. not many of those on brixton hill!


 

Maybe we had some Aborigines from Canada


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 31, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm gone on to Ancestry and put in Arodene, Arodean, Arrowdean as a surname and nothing came up.   There was 1 result for Aroden and that's in the US


Yeah, I posted it earlier...it's on a link somewhere above.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 2, 2008)

my internet has been down for a few weeks so i've only just come across this thread - i love it!  I live on Burton road - probably not a very exciting story behind that name, but doing some research on it I found that John Major used to live here almost opposite me 

Going back to the "Gropecunt Lane" thing, it reminds me that there is still a street in Norfolk called "Sluts Hole Lane" - the local council tried to change it but the residents objected furiously, so they got to keep it. People keep nicking the sign though!

I like it that we have Marcus Garvey Way, Bob Marley Way and Mandela Street round here. Seems pretty obvious now, but if they're still there in 100 years time and a future etymologist looks into the history of Lambeth, there will be lots for them to discover about local culture and politics etc.


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 2, 2008)

etymologist, if you havent done so already, you should check out the Brixton Society - i reckon there's lots of people involved in that who would have info for you and would probably be fascinated by this thread -  http://www.brixtonsociety.org.uk/ they have regular meetings and you can even suggest topics for discussion


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 2, 2008)

Done a bit of research and this is quite addictive! Clearly a key clue is finding out when the streets were built. Is there a good website with old maps of Brixton?

A few streets near me:

*Akerman Road*: this one intrigued me because it's an unusual name. It could refer to "Bilhorod-Dnistrovskyi", a city in Ukraine which used to be called Akkerman. ALso there is a region in Ukraine called Akkerman Oblast. Any ideas of any connections with Russia/Ukraine? Perhaps the planner had a relative from there or something.

*Loughborough Road*: On the triangular-shaped piece of ground now covered by Evandale, Claribel, parts of Loughborough, Lilford and Akerman Roads, stood Loughborough House and grounds. It was supposed to have derived its name from its occupation by Henry Hastings, first Baron Loughborough, and younger son of the fifth Earl of Huntingdon. His biographer states that in 1664 his residence was “an old mansion in … Lambeth”. [from http://www.british-history.ac.uk/report.aspx?compid=49769 ]

*Knatchbull Road*: This may refer to the upper class Knatchbull family, a Barony (Baron Brabourne and Baroness Brabourne) from Kent whose various family members were MPs, writers, military, civil servants, relatives of Queen Victoria etc. Difficult to find the connection to Brixton but i'm guessing the road was built sometime in the Victorian era - it may have therefore been named after Edward Knatchbull-Hugessen, 1st Baron Brabourne, a politician who found fame by editing the first edition of Jane Austen's letters, published in 1884. He died in 1893 and I'm guessing the road may have been built around then. (Interesting also that in 1746 one of his decendants, Norton Knatchbull, assumed the additional surname of Wyndham - Wyndham Road is of course another street very close by, just off Camberwell New Road.)

*Flodden Road*: This might refer to the 'Battle of Flodden' or 'Flodden Field' which was fought in Northumberland in 1513, between an invading Scots army under King James IV and an English army commanded by Thomas Howard, Earl of Surrey. It ended in a bloody defeat for the Scots and was the largest battle (in terms of numbers) fought between the two nations with 14,000 soldiers dying in just a few hours.. (info from Wikipedia)

*Flaxman Road*: I'm guessing this is John Flaxman (1755-1826), who was a sculptor and designer working in London & who's works can be seen in St Pauls Cathedral, Westminster Abbey and UCL. Some of his art was bought by the Tate family; Henry Tate being the one who built the Tate library in Brixton.


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## lang rabbie (Aug 2, 2008)

Brixton Hatter said:


> *Knatchbull Road*: This may refer to the upper class Knatchbull family, a Barony (Baron Brabourne and Baroness Brabourne) from Kent whose various family members were MPs, writers, military, civil servants, relatives of Queen Victoria etc. Difficult to find the connection to Brixton but i'm guessing the road was built sometime in the Victorian era - it may have therefore been named after Edward Knatchbull-Hugessen, 1st Baron Brabourne, a politician who found fame by editing the first edition of Jane Austen's letters, published in 1884. He died in 1893 and I'm guessing the road may have been built around then. (Interesting also that in 1746 one of his decendants, Norton Knatchbull, assumed the additional surname of Wyndham - Wyndham Road is of course another street very close by, just off Camberwell New Road.)



If you meant ancestor rather than descendent, the Wyndham Knatchbulls are the right family, but who named the road after them and when?   As with all things in the former Manor of Milkwell (part Lambeth, part Camberwell) things are messy!  



> The descents of the other two-thirds of the Manor of Milkwell are less clear. In the latter part of the 17th century Abraham Harrison, a goldsmith of Covent Garden, was buying land in Kent, and by his will, dated 1717, he bequeathed a farm called Lambeth Dean Farm, then said to be part of an ancient manor, with 109 acres in Lambeth and Camberwell, to his son Thomas.  The property passed to Thomas's nephew James Harrison who sold it in 1747 to the executors of the will of *Thomas Lord Wyndham*, formerly Lord High Chancellor of Ireland, for £3,352.   In 1762 the property was conveyed to the use of *Sir Wyndham Knatchbull Wyndham*, and a recovery was suffered to bar the entail.  Shortly afterwards Sir Wyndham died, leaving all his lands to his uncle *Sir Edward Knatchbull*. In 1770 the latter sold the property to *Hughes Minet*,  whose descendants still own the greater part of it. Although no direct connection has been traced, it is probable that the Minet property was formerly part of the Manor of Milkwell.


Source: From: 'Myatt's Fields, Denmark Hill and Herne Hill: Introduction and Myatt's Fields area', Survey of London: volume 26: Lambeth: Southern area (1956), pp. 141-145 .


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 2, 2008)

lang rabbie said:


> If you meant ancestor rather than descendent, the Wyndham Knatchbulls are the right family, but who named the road after them and when?   As with all things in the former Manor of Milkwell (part Lambeth, part Camberwell) things are messy!


yes, I meant ancestor! 

I'd never heard of the Manor of Milkwell before now. Is that where Milkwood Road comes from perhaps? Having looked at your link there was a wood called "Mylkewell woodde" there.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2008)

Brixton Hatter said:


> lots of people involved in that who would have info for you




I definitely need new specs....I read that as *lots of people involved in that who would have it in for you* and was thinking "Why? he seems a very inoffensive & interesting chap."


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 4, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I definitely need new specs....I read that as *lots of people involved in that who would have it in for you* and was thinking "Why? he seems a very inoffensive & interesting chap."





the brixton society are gonna hunt etymologist down


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## quimcunx (Aug 4, 2008)

Despite not doing any research and having nothing to contribute really, I'd just like to say this has been an interesting thread.  Well done on your hard work. 


Now can anyone tell me who Allardyce street is named after?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

quimcunx said:


> Despite not doing any research and having nothing to contribute really, I'd just like to say this has been an interesting thread.  Well done on your hard work.
> 
> 
> Now can anyone tell me who Allardyce street is named after?



No idea.  



> ALLARDYCE, Sir WILLIAM LAMOND (1861-1930), governor, was born on 14 November 1861 at Bombay, India, son of Colonel James Allardyce, military surgeon, and his wife Georgina Dickson, née Abbott. After education at the gymnasium school, Aberdeen, Scotland, and Oxford Military College, England, in 1879 he was appointed clerk and interpreter in the Provincial Department in Fiji and, in 1882, stipendiary magistrate.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 4, 2008)

Brixton Hatter said:


> the brixton society are gonna hunt etymologist down


Plans for him to be done to death in the Brixton Archives in the Minet Labrary in Knatchbull Road with a large leather bound volume detailing Victorian housing developments in Brixton.....including plans of the subterranean passages leading straight to the Golden Grail of Arodene.


*If it wasn't for that pesky Etymologist we'd have got away with it*


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## Etymologist (Aug 4, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> No idea.



Allardyce street was probably built before 1930 when that man died. Thats just a hunch. I don't actually have a clue when it was built (or named for that matter.



Brixton Hatter said:


> etymologist, if you havent done so already, you should check out the Brixton Society - i reckon there's lots of people involved in that who would have info for you and would probably be fascinated by this thread -  http://www.brixtonsociety.org.uk/ they have regular meetings and you can even suggest topics for discussion



I know all about the Brixton Society. Its partly down to their heritage trails that I became obsessed with the history of Brixton. They also published a book called "A History of Brixton" which is pretty marvellous (if its Brixton's history you want).

My identity is under wraps here so I don't think the Brixton society will find me, even if they do have it in for me. I find it interesting that it is assumed that I am male (i'm not suggesting I'm not - its just interesting what is assumed). I haven't mentioned my sex anywhere have I? Thats the beauty of the internet. Its possible to "live secretly" or λάθε βιώσας  as Epicurus said.


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## editor (Aug 4, 2008)

If it's OK with all you folks, I might précis this thread later and add it to the Brixton history section, as I reckon a lot of people will be interested in the information.



Etymologist said:


> I know all about the Brixton Society. Its partly down to their heritage trails that I became obsessed with the history of Brixton. They also published a book called "A History of Brixton" which is pretty marvellous (if its Brixton's history you want).


The books are great, but it's a shame that their site is so horrible and they're all, well, a bit fuddy duddy to deal with.

I offered to post up an updated and illustrated version of one of their walks here, with lots of links back to their site, but they declined to reply. I figured it would have been a good advert for them and driven traffic to their site, but I guess it wasn't to be. It took 2 years of asking to get them to link to the Brixton history section of this site too!


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

I understand that Sydney road and Robsart Street are assocaiated with families from the Elizabethan period.


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## Etymologist (Aug 4, 2008)

editor said:


> If it's OK with all you folks, I might précis this thread later and add it to the Brixton history section, as I reckon a lot of people will be interested in the information.
> 
> The books are great, but it's a shame that their site is so horrible and they're all, well, a bit fuddy duddy to deal with.
> 
> I offered to post up an updated and illustrated version of one of their walks here, with lots of links back to their site, but they declined to reply. I figured it would have been a good advert for them and driven traffic to their site, but I guess it wasn't to be. It took 2 years of asking to get them to link to the Brixton history section of this site too!



Its fine with me as long as you don't display all the information as though it were conclusive. Most of the road name origins in this thread are conjecture.

Sounds like a nightmare. And yes, their website is awful.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I find it interesting that it is assumed that I am male (i'm not suggesting I'm not - its just interesting what is assumed). I haven't mentioned my sex anywhere have I? Thats the beauty of the internet. Its possible to "live secretly" or λάθε βιώσας as Epicurus said.


 

So, you're a she then?  

as for the Brixton Society website - it's fucking horrendous.  I don't think it's been updated for years.  Every time I see that orange and blue, it's almost enough to make me leave


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## Etymologist (Aug 4, 2008)

Aytoun Place might be named after Sir Robert Aytoun (1570–1638) [also spelled Ayton]. He was a poet and courtier. 

A branch of the family of Ayton, originally established at Ayton (‘the town on the river’) in the Merse, Berwickshire, had been settled in Fife since the fifteenth century.

Apparently, he wrote poems in Latin, Greek, French, and Scots; though no Greek or French specimens have survived. 

At some point he was settled in London. And it was in london, apparently, 'that he found a lighter, more epigrammatic vein, and a gift for songwriting second to few among his contemporaries'. Also '[H]e affected a light sententiousness and an amiably cynical approach to love, as befitted a middle-aged, cavalier poet in comfortable circumstances who never married:

Yet have I been a lover by report,

Yea, I have dyed for love as others doe,

But, prais'd be God, it was in such a sort

That I revived within an houre or two.
(‘On Love’)'

OR: the road might be named after William Edmonstoune Aytoun, (1813–1865), another Scottish poet (and a descendant of the above Aytoun). It appears that this Aytoun only spent one (dissatisfied) winter in London so perhaps its the other one. Though I suppose if  planner likes a poet they don't have to have any connection to London really.


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

There is also a Dudley house on Robsart Street. Amy Robsart was Lady Dudley....

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/external/cumnor/robsart/robsart.htm


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## teuchter (Aug 4, 2008)

Etymologist said:


> I find it interesting that it is assumed that I am male (i'm not suggesting I'm not - its just interesting what is assumed). I haven't mentioned my sex anywhere have I? Thats the beauty of the internet. Its possible to "live secretly" or λάθε βιώσας  as Epicurus said.



I actually assumed you were a she to start with. I don't know why.


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

And Amy Robsart lived at Denchworth for awhile - hence Denchworth house....

http://www.bodley.ox.ac.uk/external/cumnor/articles/inman-robsart.htm


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

teuchter said:


> I actually assumed you were a she to start with. I don't know why.


 

Actually, I started wondering when I saw another thread.  Don't know why it made me think OP was a female though.  I think it was the one about that platform in the Thames


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

Amy Robsart also lived at Cumnor place hence Cumnor Close...


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

And also around that area (Slade Gardens):

Robert Slade's part of the 23 acres which he divided with Randle Jackson is now covered by Ingleton, Halstead, and Thornton Streets and
Ingleborough Road, named after places in Yorkshire where the family also owned property


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Lady Amye Dudley who was believed to have been murdered in 1560 by her husband Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester was Amye Robsart till she married him. Robert Dudley was a favourite of Queen Elizabeth 1st. I have no idea if there's a connection though.




didn't see this... 

I haven't actually come across anything directly linking that land to the Robsart family...apart from the selection of names, there is no mention of a manor house on that land.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

I found this which is interesting.  It's from King's Lynn and West Norfolk website.  I don't know whether there rules on street naming apply in London or whether each county/borough has their own rules.

"All new street names should end with one of the following suffixes:

'Street' may be used for any thoroughfare
'Road' may be used for any thoroughfare
'Way' may be used for major roads
'Avenue' may be used for residential roads
'Drive' may be used may be used for residential roads
'Grove' may be used for residential roads
'Lane' may be used for residential roads
'Gardens' may be used for residential roads (subject to there being no confusion with any local open space)
'Place' may be used for residential roads
'Crescent' may be used for a crescent shaped road
'Close' may be used for a cul-de-sac only
'Square' may be used for a square only
'Hill' may be used for a hillside road only
'Circus' may be used for a large roundabout
'Vale' may be used for residential roads (only for exceptional use)
'Dene' may be used for residential roads (only for exceptional use)
'Rise' may be used for residential roads (only for exceptional use)
'Mead' may be used for residential roads (only for exceptional use)
'Mews' is considered acceptable in appropriate circumstances.
'Court' is considered acceptable in appropriate circumstances.
'Yard' is considered acceptable in appropriate circumstances.
'End', 'Cross', 'Side', 'View', 'Wharf', 'Walk', *'Park',* 'Meadow' *are not considered to be suitable. However any of these words can be incorporated in a street name provided that it terminates with an appropriate suffix e.g., Fen End Road"*

So, does London/Lambeth have different rules or did something neglect to put a Street/Road/Avenue etc. on the end of Elm Park?


ETA:  I've just looked at Corporation of London's street-naming conventions and it looks pretty much the same as above


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## bluestreak (Aug 4, 2008)

What year did those come into enforecemtn though - it might be a lot more recent than most of Brixton's street names, IYSWIM.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

bluestreak said:


> What year did those come into enforecemtn though - it might be a lot more recent than most of Brixton's street names, IYSWIM.


 

Haven't found that out yet.   Still looking


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## teuchter (Aug 4, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So, does London/Lambeth have different rules or did something neglect to put a Street/Road/Avenue etc. on the end of Elm Park?



It seems that it used to be called Elm Grove.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

teuchter said:


> It seems that it used to be called Elm Grove.


 

Yes, but we still need to know when it was renamed Elm Park and what street-naming conventions were in place then?


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## Moonchild (Aug 4, 2008)

Elm Park appears as such in Charles Booth's survey of the area conducted in October 1899. 

So any name changing from Elm Grove to Elm Park must pre-date that.


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## teuchter (Aug 4, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> Elm Park appears as such in Charles Booth's survey of the area conducted in October 1899.
> 
> So any name changing from Elm Grove to Elm Park must pre-date that.



It's called Elm Grove on an 1870 map that I've got a copy of. On an 1894 map it is called Elm Park.


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## Moonchild (Aug 4, 2008)

I wonder when the Elm Park Tavern was built? That might help with dating the name change. It certainly looks like a late Victorian pub. Any ideas which brewery owned it/ran it originally?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

teuchter said:


> It's called Elm Grove on an 1870 map that I've got a copy of. On an 1894 map it is called Elm Park.


 


Moonchild said:


> I wonder when the Elm Park Tavern was built? That might help with dating the name change. It certainly looks like a late Victorian pub. Any ideas which brewery owned it/ran it originally?


 

Yes, but I still want to know when street-naming convention came in.  It must have been after 1894 when it was called Elm Park


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> I wonder when the Elm Park Tavern was built?


 

c. 1870s apparently


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## Moonchild (Aug 4, 2008)

The name change seems to have happened during the 1870s - the 1881 census lists Elm Park in Lambeth, but can't find it on the 1871 census (though I haven't looked too hard).


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> The name change seems to have happened during the 1870s - the 1881 census lists Elm Park in Lambeth, but can't find it on the 1871 census (though I haven't looked too hard).


 

Have you tried the addition of "Surrey" for 1871 census?


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## Moonchild (Aug 4, 2008)

Not getting any luck with Surrey on 1871.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

Moonchild said:


> Not getting any luck with Surrey on 1871.


 

Strange. Maybe the census taker got too pissed to fill in the details


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## Etymologist (Aug 4, 2008)

boohoo said:


> And also around that area (Slade Gardens):
> 
> Robert Slade's part of the 23 acres which he divided with Randle Jackson is now covered by Ingleton, Halstead, and Thornton Streets and
> Ingleborough Road, named after places in Yorkshire where the family also owned property



So many, so brief, so clear. Wonderful.


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

Did anyone mention that Elm Park is named after a house called the Elms...


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## boohoo (Aug 4, 2008)

Groveway was Grove road and is named after a house that stood there called Fir Grove


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2008)

boohoo said:


> Did anyone mention that Elm Park is named after a house called the Elms...


 

That was at the Tulse Hill end wasn't it?

or not?


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## Moonchild (Aug 4, 2008)

The Elms is shown as a big house on Tulse Hill in the 1862 map in Teuchter's lovely pdf. 

That ties in with the use of old villa names for road names in the Hayter estate on the other side of Brixton Hill.

The estate sale particulars SC00678 detail what was included in the "lot". Beverstone and Baytrees are both now roads, as is Hayter itself. 

I probably ought to do some work today but this is much more interesting.


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## Martin H (Apr 4, 2020)

My aunt always said that the earliest mention of Brigeston was when King Cnut (Canute) sailed up the River Effra until it was no longer navigable. The Effra actually rises in Norwood & flows along the course of Elder Rd & then along Norwood Rd. The 'trickle' may be a tributary but can't actually be the river as that's in the valley, along Dulwich Road. I'd always thought that it flowed under Effra Rd itself, but it certainly goes along the High Street to the end of Stockwell Road & then flows down the road. It comes out into the Thames just east of Vauxhall Bridge, ouzing out of the pipe & dropping down into the Thames.


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## JuanTwoThree (Apr 4, 2020)

Martin H said:


> My aunt always said that the earliest mention of Brigeston was when King Cnut (Canute) sailed up the River Effra until it was no longer navigable. The Effra actually rises in Norwood & flows along the course of Elder Rd & then along Norwood Rd. The 'trickle' may be a tributary but can't actually be the river as that's in the valley, along Dulwich Road. I'd always thought that it flowed under Effra Rd itself, but it certainly goes along the High Street to the end of Stockwell Road & then flows down the road. It comes out into the Thames just east of Vauxhall Bridge, ouzing out of the pipe & dropping down into the Thames.




Some stuff here:








						River Effra
					

Anyone else noticed these. This one is on Rattray road. Are there others?  Thanks




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and here








						London's little rivers and streams
					

Which ones do you know and which have you walked along?  Excluding underground streams, can think of:  The Ravensbourne and its tributary the Quaggy, the Wandle, Beverley Brook, the Brent, Dollis Stream, Silk Stream, River Lea, Pymme's Brook (which joins the Lea), various little channels off...




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