# London Bridge incident gunshots / armed police 29/11/19



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Just breaking on BBC News.


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## Mumbles274 (Nov 29, 2019)

Shots fired, traffic stopped, men restrained


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Mumbles274 said:


> Shots fired, traffic stopped, men restrained


sounds like a load of 'nothing to see here'


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## Mumbles274 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> sounds like a load of 'nothing to see here'


Lets hope so


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

nice to see cupid_stunt putting the date in the title


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

> *POLICE have flocked to London Bridge as witnesses say shots have been fired at the famous landmark in the Capital.*
> 
> *Twitter users flocked social media claiming shots have ben fired and that a large police presence is at the scene. One said: “Shots fired in London Bridge apparently wtf.” Another said: “Someone just shot on London Bridge #london.”
> 
> ...



London Bridge on lockdown after gunshots heard - police shout at public to move away


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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)




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## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

Stay safe folks!


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)




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## Mumbles274 (Nov 29, 2019)

BBC news bod: "we don't want to jump to conclusions"

I'm not sure he's got the hang of rolling news yet


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## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Beeb now says: 



> London Bridge has been cordoned off by police, with a BBC journalist reporting hearing gunfire.
> 
> BBC reporter John McManus said he saw a group of men involved in a fight on the bridge.
> 
> Police then arrived and shots were fired, he said.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Police dealing with incident on London Bridge amid reports of shots fired


> Pictures on social media showed several police cars on the bridge, with a lorry stopped across the central reservation of the dual carriageway bridge.


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## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

What's that lorry doing?


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## editor (Nov 29, 2019)




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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> What's that lorry doing?


Hard to guess from a photo
Maybe he swerved to avoid someone?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> What's that lorry doing?



nothing, it's boxed in


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Sky News reporting an alleged attacker, who had pulled a knife & started to attack people, has been shot dead by police.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Sky News reporting an alleged attacker, who had pulled a knife & started to attack people, has been shot dead by police.


the master criminal always makes one fatal error and his was bringing a knife to a gunfight


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

> Gunshots have reportedly been fired on London Bridge causing people to flee in panic.
> 
> Witnesses have reported hearing up to 10 gunshots as 'sirens wailed'.
> 
> ...



Panic after reports of gunshots on bus on London Bridge


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## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

Thankfully we didn’t see Spymaster lugging his shitty sofa across the bridge at the time!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> Thankfully we didn’t see Spymaster lugging his shitty sofa across the bridge at the time!


he's going over waterloo bridge


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Sky now saying police have told them a man has been shot & killed...



> A man has been shot and killed by officers on London Bridge, police have told Sky News.
> 
> A person is believed to have started attacking people with a knife and was then shot dead by armed police.
> 
> ...



Man shot and killed by police on London Bridge - police


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Sky was talking to a guy, in an office over looking the bridge, he had to cut it short, as the building was being evacuated.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Borough Market now being evacuated.

WTF is going on?


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## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

Warning: someone gets shot in this clip (or tazed, maybe?)


Spoiler


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## Johnny Doe (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Barrow Market now being evacuated.
> 
> WTF is going on?



City boy mate of mine says an explosion at Borough Market. Trusts his source......


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

At least five people have been injured on the bridge.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Warning: someone gets shot in this clip



i see the cops scarpered lest they get hit by their colleague's poor aim


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Borough Market now being evacuated.
> 
> WTF is going on?


tomorrow is shop barrow day


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Harry Smiles said:


> City boy mate of mine says an explosion at Borough Market. Trusts his source......


apparently not the case

London Bridge shooting: Second incident as 'police storm Borough Market'


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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Warning: someone gets shot in this clip (or tazed, maybe?)


Might want to spoiler that


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## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Might want to spoiler that



Eek - it's not autoplaying is it? I'll spoiler just in case


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

A friend who was on the bridge just put this on WhatsApp: 

"A policeman with a machine gun started running and shouting move and fuck me everyone shit their pants".


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> A friend who was on the bridge just put this on WhatsApp:
> 
> "A policeman with a machine gun started running and shouting move and fuck me everyone shit their pants".


not sure if you're posting this to show how serious the incident was or to say 'it's not just me craps their pants, see?'


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 29, 2019)

Some bloke grabbed the knife off him before tge shooting


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Warning: someone gets shot in this clip (or tazed, maybe?)
> 
> 
> Spoiler



That sounds like a shot to me. How would that have been necessary? The guy was on the floor, had already been tackled by passerbys. . . maybe it'll turn out he was wearing a suicide vest, but I have the feeling we're looking at another de Menezes case here.


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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> That sounds like a shot to me. How would that have been necessary? The guy was on the floor, had already been tackled by passerbys. . . maybe it'll turn out he was wearing a suicide vest, but I have the feeling we're looking at another de Menezes case here.


I think that is a bit of a leap tbf 
de Menezes had not stabbed 5 people


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> I think that is a bit of a leap tbf
> de Menezes had not stabbed 5 people


OK, but if not-bono-ever is right and he had already been deprived of his knife. . .


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Warning: someone gets shot in this clip (or tazed, maybe?)
> 
> 
> Spoiler




Looks more like shot tbh. Think they pulled someone off him then fired.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> OK, but if not-bono-ever is right and he had already been deprived of his knife. . .


operation kratos


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)




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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> OK, but if not-bono-ever is right and he had already been deprived of his knife. . .


They wouldn't have known if he had another, a gun, a bomb ...

If reports are correct the bloke had just attacked 5 people with a weapon and was trying to attack more. 

They shot him. Good work.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> They wouldn't have known if he had another, a gun, a bomb ...
> 
> If reports are correct the bloke had just attacked 5 people with a weapon and was trying to attack more.
> 
> They shot him. Good work.


let's hope this doesn't come back to bite you, eh


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> let's hope this doesn't come back to bite you, eh


It can't. I said _according to reports_. If they change so will I.


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## nogojones (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> What's that lorry doing?



You Park Like A Cunt


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> OK, but if not-bono-ever is right and he had already been deprived of his knife. . .



Always good seconds after the event and on the evidence of a short video to second guess those making life or death decisions.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> They wouldn't have known if he had another, a gun, a bomb ...
> 
> If reports are correct the bloke had just attacked 5 people with a weapon and was trying to attack more.
> 
> They shot him. Good work.



As you say 'if reports are correct', fuck him.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Looks more like shot tbh. Think they pulled someone off him then fired.


Shot for def



Spoiler: Not bloody - but best not watch at work.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It can't. I said _according to reports_. If they change so will I.





LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Always good seconds after the event and on the evidence of a short video to second guess those making life or death decisions.



Much like bold Spymaster himself, I also hedged my bets and covered my backside with "maybe" and "I have a feeling".


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## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> ...I have the feeling we're looking at another de Menezes case here.



How can you possibly say that when we don't even know what has actually happened yet?


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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> OK, but if not-bono-ever is right and he had already been deprived of his knife. . .


We do not know if he had more weapons on him. 
If he was disarmed then it was an overreaction but we don't know that. 
Still hard to leap to a straight comparison with de Menezes given the two situations. 

Not really worth arguing about at this stage though eh?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

maybe spoiler that butchersapron


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> We do not know if he had more weapons on him.
> If he was disarmed then it was an overreaction but we don't know that.
> Still hard to leap to a straight comparison with de Menezes given the two situations.
> 
> Not really worth arguing about at this stage though eh?


the way they dealt with him, they must have thought he had a bomb on him


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> How can you possibly say that when we don't even know what has actually happened yet?


I said "I have the feeling", and that's because the record of the London constabulary does not fill me with a great feeling (look, there it is again) of confidence.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Not really worth arguing about at this stage though eh?


remember uninformed speculation is our meat and drink


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

You don't all peel back as a group just from a knife surely.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You don't all peel back as a group just from a knife surely.


no, has to be a suicide belt or similar.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> We do not know if he had more weapons on him.
> If he was disarmed then it was an overreaction but we don't know that.
> Still hard to leap to a straight comparison with de Menezes given the two situations.
> 
> Not really worth arguing about at this stage though eh?


I didn't say it was a straight comparison. What I think MIGHT, MAYBE a point of comparison with the de Menezes is that in that case (14 years ago!) the cops were too busy playing Bravo Two Zero to actually do their job properly.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no, has to be a suicide belt or similar.


Or they thought he had a suicide vest on.

If he was wearing it, why not go into the market and detonate it, why start with the knife?


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You don't all peel back as a group just from a knife surely.


This. Something happens that makes all of the people who are tackling him back away really quickly. They're frightened by something. The cop who shoots him is also in the group trying to restrain him on the ground. He also backs away and then takes the shot.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Or they thought he had a suicide vest on.
> 
> If he was wearing it, why not go into the market and detonate it, why start with the knife?


yeh we'd make much better terrorists than the shabby lot they've employed at the moment


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh we'd make much better terrorists than the shabby lot they've employed at the moment


"I see you've played knifey-spoony before"


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## ffsear (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Or they thought he had a suicide vest on.
> 
> If he was wearing it, why not go into the market and detonate it, why start with the knife?



Prob a fake one like the 2017 attackers had on


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

ffsear said:


> Prob a fake one like the 2017 attackers had on


Can't get the parts, innit?


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## sunnysidedown (Nov 29, 2019)

Was it not the police turning up that made everyone back off?


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

After he was shot they carried on backing away and away


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

sunnysidedown said:


> Was it not the police turning up that made everyone back off?


No, the police +one normal bloke were on him.


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## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Or they thought he had a suicide vest on.
> 
> If he was wearing it, why not go into the market and detonate it, why start with the knife?



Assuming it's something that looks like a suicide belt, then only the bloke would have known whether it's a fakey-mcfake-pants or not. 

But in broad terms, yes, if you discover during a scuffle that the bloke has _something _that looks explosive, then everyone runs away and someone slots him.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Assuming it's something that looks like a suicide belt, then only the bloke would have known whether it's a fakey-mcfake-pants or not.
> 
> But in broad terms, yes, if you discover during a scuffle that the bloke has _something _that looks explosive, then everyone runs away and someone slots him.


Boldly ran away sir Robin.

It's still not clear from what I'm seeing that the shot was fatal. . .


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

on the positive side the past hour's just sped by at work


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## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Boldly ran away sir Robin.


what the fuck


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> If he was wearing it, why not go into the market and detonate it, why start with the knife?


Because starting with the vest would make the knife somewhat redundant.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Boldly ran away sir Robin.
> 
> It's still not clear from what I'm seeing that the shot was fatal. . .


yeh his arms lift after suggesting life not quite extinct


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## mod (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Because starting with the vest would make the knife somewhat redundant.



The Batalan (Paris) attackers wore suicide vests and used them when they were cornered.


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## not-bono-ever (Nov 29, 2019)

Lots of rail Cops are housed behind the London Bridge hotel nowadays- a few hundred meters away. It’s lockdown at the minute but I don’t see anything else happening despite reports etc on the net of other incidents.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Because starting with the vest would make the knife somewhat redundant.


every soldier has a bayonet. but few soldiers charge into battle to use the bayonet, preferring instead to use their ranged weapons first. so here, yer man could, if it was a suicide vest, have killed lots of people with it and far fewer with the knife. curious he didn't, if it was real


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Embedding tweets will be the death of this board, but I've just seen saying "BTP" (British Transport Police, I suppose?) confirming that an IED has been found in Borough Market.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Embedding tweets will be the death of this board, but I've just seen saying "BTP" (British Transport Police, I suppose?) confirming that an IED has been found in Borough Market.


i wonder if they're calling out, asking whose it is


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## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Boldly ran away sir Robin.
> 
> It's still not clear from what I'm seeing that the shot was fatal. . .



Fucking too right!

Fatal/not fatal isn't a thing - what you're looking for is a 'capability kill', for a potential suicide bomber thats the ability to command the detonation, for a tank that's the ability to fire and move, for an aircraft it's the ability to fly.

Now, it just so happens that's the injuries that will stop a suicide bomber detonating his bomb are _remarkably _similar to ones that will kill him, but that's not really something you worry about at the time.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Because starting with the vest would make the knife somewhat redundant.


Making a crowd run because they see a mad bomber waving a knife around is a good way to clear your target area of juicy targets, surely?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Police repond to knife attack on London Bridge as video footage shows bystander intervention - follow live
ie please don't circulate the pictures of us gunning someone down


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> what the fuck


Sorry.


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## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

WTF is going on here with the fella in civvies carrying a knife


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> WTF is going on here with the fella in civvies carrying a knife



He took the knife,


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Embedding tweets will be the death of this board, but I've just seen saying "BTP" (British Transport Police, I suppose?) confirming that an IED has been found in Borough Market.


This has been a thing for over an hour now - started with reports of an explosion there. That there's not been hundreds or thousands of people confirming such an explosion in that time...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Sorry.


don't think you have anything to apologise for


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> This has been a thing for over an hour now - started with reports of an explosion there. That there's not been hundreds or thousands of people confirming such an explosion in that time...


Yes, and I've just seen another thing that said that was a false alarm (the BTP thing, I mean). 

Good thing nothing like this could happen round my way. 

Oh.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> don't think you have anything to apologise for


What about the violence inherent in the system?


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

My mate's just done an interview but he doesn't know who it was for. Looking for a ginger Aussie with a beard!


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## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Looking for a ginger Aussie with a beard!


Aren't we all darling


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> What's that lorry doing?




Swerving to avoid a cyclist.


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## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Swerving to avoid a cyclist.



What's the world coming to?


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He took the knife,



Fuck standing around holding a big knife about there though. I'd be in a rush to put that down somewhere!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> What's the world coming to?


hell in a handcart etc


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## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> He took the knife,



I wonder at what point he thought "I should probably put this knife down, what with all these jumpy armed police about"


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck standing around holding a big knife about there though. I'd be in a rush to put that down somewhere!


Imagine if he threw it over the bridge.


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## mod (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck standing around holding a big knife about there though. I'd be in a rush to put that down somewhere!



Not sure you'd be thinking straight. I wonder what he chucks away from his pocket at the end of that video.


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## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

mod said:


> Not sure you'd be thinking straight. I wonder what he chucks away from his pocket at the end of that video.


Cocaine


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## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck standing around holding a big knife about there though. I'd be in a rush to put that down somewhere!


Too fucking right. He throws something away at the end of the clip too.


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## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Fuck standing around holding a big knife about there though. I'd be in a rush to put that down somewhere!



Yeah, but the bloke looks petrified and in a daze of shock, I'll let him off - though of course if some copper turns up and clocks him with the knife, it might all go downhill...


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

mod said:


> Not sure you'd be thinking straight. I wonder what he chucks away from his pocket at the end of that video.


i thought it was a hankie he was going to wrap round the knife. but he'll have some explaining to do.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Yeah, but the bloke looks petrified and in a daze of shock, I'll let him off - though of course if some copper turns up and clocks him with the knife, it might all go downhill...


water under the bridge


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Yeah, but the bloke looks petrified and in a daze of shock, I'll let him off - though of course if some copper turns up and clocks him with the knife, it might all go downhill...



He'll have a good story to tell too, won't need to buy a pint this Xmas.... or for a bit.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> He'll have a good story to tell too, won't need to buy a pint this Xmas.... or for a bit.


Or the non-copper who was pulled off the bloke at the end. Not that he'll likely be able to hear anyone offering to buy a pint till after christmas.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2019)

Run, hide, twat the bastard isn't sensible or official but when it works it's great.


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## telbert (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Cocaine


Wouldn't want to get nicked with that in your pocket would ya?


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## mod (Nov 29, 2019)

Complete respect to those people who tackled him. Brave fuckers.


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## JimW (Nov 29, 2019)

You'd think to Christ they'd overlook a possession charge if you'd just tackled a mad knifeman/bomber


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

JimW said:


> You'd think to Christ they'd overlook a possession charge if you'd just tackled a mad knifeman/bomber


they'd overlook either the cocaine or the knife but not both


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## JimW (Nov 29, 2019)

Mind, maybe it was the coke made him mad enough to do it.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

mod said:


> Complete respect to those people who tackled him. Brave fuckers.



Indeed.

I would like to think I would join in, but the gut feeling of 'runaway' would be strong.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

JimW said:


> Mind, maybe it was the coke made him mad enough to do it.


Didn't the "fuck you, I'm Millwall" guy keep his pint in one hand all through the process?


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## JimW (Nov 29, 2019)

Perhaps anyone entering central London should be compulsorily dosed with stimulants in case they're need to "have a go".


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...


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## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

JimW said:


> You'd think to Christ they'd overlook a possession charge if you'd just tackled a mad knifeman/bomber



He could well be a copper or spook.


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## JimW (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Didn't the "fuck you, I'm Millwall" guy keep his pint in one hand all through the process?


I think the Glasgow fellows did it unaided by anything other than Weegieness though.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Didn't the "fuck you, I'm Millwall" guy keep his pint in one hand all through the process?


Nah, you confusing two responses and the former bloke turned out to be racist piece of shit anyway.


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...



That long?


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## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

JimW said:


> I think the Glasgow fellows did it unaided by anything other than Weegieness though.



And Irn Bru surely?


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## JimW (Nov 29, 2019)

Anyway, only joking as it seems no-one was hurt (ETA killed rather, I know he used the knife) bar the attacker, and much respect to those who went in to help.


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## T & P (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours minutes before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...



Corrected that for you.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...


0.48 hours


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

_I had my baby with me, so I moved her behind the stairwell to be safe. Then there was a two shots or two loud pops, I think they were gunshots. And I also saw a spent taser.

And then the guy was lying on the floor. He then pulled his coat back, which showed that he had some sort of vest underneath [I don’t know] whether it was a stab vest or some sort of explosive vest. The police then really quickly moved backwards away.

On the bus we were panicking because we’re at this point, we were almost as close as the police to him. And he was sort of lying there pulling his coat backwards and the police were shouting at him and staying back from him._


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Right, well he's dead so no direct info going to be coming from him.


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## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

_"A Downing Street source said Boris Johnson is on his way back to No 10 from his constituency where he will receive further updates on the incident"
_
Well that's a comfort isn't it?


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## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

> A suspect shot by police today at London Bridge has died, two sources with knowledge of the investigation say.



London Bridge incident 'treated as if terror-related' after five people injured – live news


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## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> _"A Downing Street source said Boris Johnson is on his way back to No 10 from his constituency where he will receive further updates on the incident"
> _
> Well that's a comfort isn't it?


Much Churchillian. Very spirit of the blitz.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

mod said:


> Complete respect to those people who tackled him. Brave fuckers.



Totally.

As much as I am ACAB, fuck running towards these cunts, I'd be slapping Usain Bolt on the head as I passed him should I be unfortunate enough to get caught up in crap like this.


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## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

Have just seen this. Am walking into town and saw sirens heading that way and police choppers! Sad, regrettable news. Hope people are not too badly hurt.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _I had my baby with me, so I moved her behind the stairwell to be safe. Then there was a two shots or two loud pops, I think they were gunshots. And I also saw a spent taser.
> 
> And then the guy was lying on the floor. He then pulled his coat back, which showed that he had some sort of vest underneath [I don’t know] whether it was a stab vest or some sort of explosive vest. The police then really quickly moved backwards away.
> 
> On the bus we were panicking because we’re at this point, we were almost as close as the police to him. And he was sort of lying there pulling his coat backwards and the police were shouting at him and staying back from him._



That interview on the BBC News Channel ended rather sweetly:

"It's good to be back home. My baby slept through it all, so she's unaware of how shaky I've been"

"Go and make yourself a strong cup of tea and have a nice sit down. Thank you so much for talking to us"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...



That long?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...





cupid_stunt said:


> That long?





Artaxerxes said:


> That long?



That slow?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> That interview on the BBC News Channel ended rather sweetly:
> 
> "It's good to be back home. My baby slept through it all, so she's unaware of how shaky I've been"
> 
> "*Go and make yourself a strong cup of tea and have a nice sit down.* Thank you so much for talking to us"



That makes me grateful to be British.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

Tonight. Johnson will do interview with Andrew Neil. We are The party against crime and against terrorism and support the police....


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I give it 48 hours before someone tries to make electoral campaign capital from this...


I don't really get this - terrorism is a political act: is there any response beyond the very blandest that a politician could have to this that isn't 'making political capital'?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Much Churchillian. Very spirit of the blitz.


word has it he has insisted on the cabinet war rooms being brought back into service


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Live update from Scotland Yard due in the next few minutes.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Tonight. Johnson will do interview with Andrew Neil. We are The party against crime and against terrorism and support the police....


_But Mr Johnson, under administrations that you were a leading member of the police were cut back to the bare bones, esp in london_. Neil wouldn't miss that open goal and they know it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't really get this - terrorism is a political act: is there any response beyond the very blandest that a politician could have to this that isn't 'making political capital'?



Expect to see Corbyn the IRA/PLO etc. supporter shite smeared all over the media alongside this in the next few days...


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 29, 2019)

Small moment of panic for me with this one as my g/f works on Bankside just a few minutes walk from London Bridge.  2pm is feasibly a time she could have been out getting lunch.  Tried calling but couldn't get through, probably because the networks are overloaded in the area.  Did get through eventually and all OK.  Weird how the mind can start playing tricks on you even though you can rationalise it all the mind still starts to run.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't really get this - terrorism is a political act: is there any response beyond the very blandest that a politician could have to this that isn't 'making political capital'?


I'd be making as much as i could. Corbyn made great political capital out of the attacks in the last election by bringing up UK foreign policy. Expected hit became a boon.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Tonight. Johnson will do interview with Andrew Neil. We are The party against crime and against terrorism and support the police....


Duh! 

If the PM, mayor, and leader of the opposition did NOT comment on it THAT would be noteworthy.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I'd be making as much as i could. Corbyn made great political capital out of the attacks in the last election by bringing up UK foreign policy.


Well exactly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Small moment of panic for me with this one as my g/f works on Bankside just a few minutes walk from London Bridge.  2pm is feasibly a time she could have been out getting lunch.  Tried calling but couldn't get through, probably because the networks are overloaded in the area.  Did get through eventually and all OK.  Weird how the mind can start playing tricks on you even though you can rationalise it all the mind still starts to run.



Very happy she's OK, mate.


----------



## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't really get this - terrorism is a political act: is there any response beyond the very blandest that a politician could have to this that isn't 'making political capital'?



Yeah, for sure. I meant porous borders/soft on terrorism/friends of terrorists/etc specific to the election. Anyway, idle musing of mine, not a savage critique.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _But Mr Johnson, under administrations that you were a leading member of the police were cut back to the bare bones, esp in london_. Neil wouldn't miss that open goal and they know it.


Andrew fucking Neil? Are you joking? You do remember Carmen Proetta, right?


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Expect to see Corbyn the IRA/PLO etc. supporter shite smeared all over the media alongside this in the next few days...


"Who cared about a few stirred up Muslims" - Zbigniew Brzezinski.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> word has it he has insisted on the cabinet war rooms being brought back into service


Seal him in the privy, and let him deal with himself.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Tonight. Johnson will do interview with Andrew Neil. We are The party against crime and against terrorism and support the police....



Boris "did i aplogise for islamophobia in the Tory party I am the Champion of it !!"


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Andrew fucking Neil? Are you joking? You do remember Carmen Proetta, right?


I know how he operates domestically. He hits obvious targets relentlessly in a straightforward way. Here would be one.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I know how he operates domestically. He hits obvious targets relentlessly in a straightforward way. Here would be one.


He's a company man, so no, to him Boris the Bottler won't be an obvious target.


----------



## D'wards (Nov 29, 2019)

Trigger warning in both senses of the word


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> He's a company man, so no, to him Boris the Bottler won't be an obvious target.


You're wrong and obv haven't watched much of his stuff for some time.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

Ponder how getting brexit done will resolve this issue


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

if i was going to do something like this i would join the tory party six months beforehand


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

fair play to the civilans who got involved with this situation mind


----------



## peterkro (Nov 29, 2019)

Pretend knowledgeable BBC reporter refers to jack knifed lorry on the bridge, good trick in a rigid chassis truck.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

"Declared a terrorist incident"


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Met police live statement confirms the suspect is dead, and they think he had a hoax suicide vest.

ETA -



> *Suicide vest was a hoax*
> Due to reports that the suspect was wearing a suicide vest a cordon remains around the area. But Basu said the police now believe the vest was a hoax suicide vest.
> London Bridge attack: suspect shot dead by police in terrorist incident – live news



Looks likes the cops did the right thing by shooting the cunt.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> You're wrong and obv haven't watched much of his stuff for some time.


Anyway, if AN did give it the "you cut the peelers funding" bit, Bottler would just say "I commend the quick reaction of our fine policemen and put it to you that their highly professional response indicates that our capital's police force are fully fighting fit".


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

> Several people were stabbed by the suspect before he was wrestled to the ground and disarmed by members of the public, PA reports.


Spirit of the Blitz etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Anyway, if AN did give it the "you cut the peelers funding" bit, Bottler would just say "I commend the quick reaction of our fine policemen and put it to you that their highly professional response indicates that our capital's police force are fully fighting fit".


Giving Neil another open goal.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Fake vest


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Trigger warning in both senses of the word



Not sure the author intended to show off all his contacts in that video.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Met police live statement confirms the suspect is dead, and they think he had a hoax suicide vest.
> 
> ETA -
> 
> ...



Even without getting stabby if you wear a fake suicide vest in London there is a very high chance you'll get a bullet given the current security climate.  I bet all those people who were restraining him didn't know he had a vest, fake or otherwise.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

Fake vest probably expecting being shot after stabbing innocent unarmed people. Instant martyrdom. 
Terrorism innit.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Fake vest


The only (fairly) sure way of controlling the the end point of the incident?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

D'wards said:


> Trigger warning in both senses of the word




Fking hell!


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 29, 2019)

I was driving back from Central London today and it was all the Police cars heading towards the centre that caused me to switch on the radio and find out what was going on.  I was in Shepherds Bush at the time and as I listened I  noticed a stall for Islam against extremism just outside Westfield.  I feel like its going to be an interesting day for the guys manning the stall regardless of the motivations of the fake vested stabber.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> The only (fairly) sure way of controlling the the end point of the incident?


Yes. I - at this point - have no problems with their actions on the bridge.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

police shooting someone with a fake bomb vest


it not something you can give a wait and see approach..

braver for pulling off the guy clearly holding the guys hands down


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

peterkro said:


> Pretend knowledgeable BBC reporter refers to jack knifed lorry on the bridge, good trick in a rigid chassis truck.



The battle to always use jack-knifed correctly was lost years ago, sadly. Now it just means "lorry pointing in wrong direction"


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Anyone strutting around London cowardly stabbing innocent random passersby while wearing a suicide vest, fake or otherwise, can hardly complain if they get a bullet in their noggin for their troubles. If they survived to think about complaining, of course.


----------



## Fez909 (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> The battle to always use jack-knifed correctly was lost years ago, sadly. Now it just means "lorry pointing in wrong direction"


"literally jack-knifed"


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Re Johnson, the election, etc, not sure there's much political capital here at first look. If the bloke who had been stabby and was wearing a fake suicide vest turns out to be the only person killed, I don't see where any blame could be thrown really. Isn't that an example of things working as they should?


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Re Johnson, the election, etc, not sure there's much political capital here at first look. If the bloke who had been stabby and was wearing a fake suicide vest turns out to be the only person killed, I don't see where any blame could be thrown really. Isn't that an example of things working as they should?



if trump does not come out and blame the london mayor before the end of the day i will be surprised

also the line if Corybin is in power this will happen more often will be in the headlines tomorrow


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> Anyone strutting around London cowardly stabbing innocent random passersby while wearing a suicide vest, fake or otherwise, can hardly complain if they get a bullet in their noggin for their troubles. If they survived to think about complaining, of course.


I think the eventual aim of the exercise was to finish up with a bullet in the noggin tbf. He won't have any complaints.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Re Johnson, the election, etc, not sure there's much political capital here at first look. If the bloke who had been stabby and was wearing a fake suicide vest turns out to be the only person killed, I don't see where any blame could be thrown really. Isn't that an example of things working as they should?


Depends if suspect has left video/etc. message and, if so, what it said.
Very unlikely, of course, but if there were to be any notion that this was a 'response' to...say...Johnson's islamophobic comments...then that would be very germane.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I think the eventual aim of the exercise was to finish up with a bullet in the noggin tbf. He won't have any complaints.


Happy to oblige.

Everyone's a winner.


----------



## Dragon 24 (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> Anyone strutting around London cowardly stabbing innocent random passersby while wearing a suicide vest, fake or otherwise, can hardly complain if they get a bullet in their noggin for their troubles. If they survived to think about complaining, of course.


Too true. Others have already said it, but fuck me the bravery of those that tackled the guy. The last one pulled off by the police must of been holding him down. I hope they are all awarded for what they did. I haven’t heard much about the victims. Does anyone know how many, how serious a condition they are in?


----------



## maomao (Nov 29, 2019)

Wife works one bridge along from LB. Has colleagues who were on the bridge while it happened. She was at Borough Market an hour earlier. Another bright side to her possibly losing her job.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

Not british but proud of the city i made my home in atm


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> if trump does not come out and blame the london mayor before the end of the day i will be surprised



Depends on what flavour of nutter the stabber turns out to be.  If he's far right loon then Trump will no doubt keep schtum.  That being said the MO does suggest Islamist.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Depends on what flavour of nutter the stabber turns out to be.  If he's far right loon then Trump will no doubt keep schtum.  That being said the MO does suggest Islamist.


Oh come on.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Teaboy said:


> Depends on what flavour of nutter the stabber turns out to be.  If he's far right loon then Trump will no doubt keep schtum.  That being said the MO does suggest Islamist.



Judging by the description, he's from the 72 virgin varieties.


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

Someone with a fake suicide vest and a knife could well be someone with mental health issues.
as of a few minutes ago the police are still racing around in marked and unmarked cars by Westminster and Waterloo bridges


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Someone with a fake suicide vest and a knife could well be someone with mental health issues.
> as of a few minutes ago the police are still racing around in marked and unmarked cars by Westminster and Waterloo bridges


Yeh they love this shit, they get to pretend they're Regan and Carter


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> Someone with a fake suicide vest and a knife could well be someone with mental health issues.
> as of a few minutes ago the police are still racing around in marked and unmarked cars by Westminster and Waterloo bridges


Every time a fascist does an attack there's people bemoaning people calling it a mental health issue. Are we full circle now. All attacks are mental health issues. The other bridge attackers (or one of the london ones at least, the worst one) had fake vest on as well btw. Mental health or ideology?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Judging by the description, he's from the 72 virgin varieties.


Surely 73 virgins


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

4 and 20 virgins


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> Not british but proud of the city i made my home in atm


Where are you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> 4 and 20 virgins


Which day of Christmas is that?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Every time a fascist does an attack there's people bemoaning people calling it a mental health issue. Are we full circle now. All attacks are mental health issues. The other bridge attackers (or one of the london ones at least, the worst one) had fake vest on as well btw. Mental health or ideology?


As said above; it's hard not to see it as anything other than a very clear-sighted tactic adopted to ensure the outcome that the perpetrators desire.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Where are you?



I've lived all over london since moving over from dublin. 

but fair play that civilans of this city got directly involved without knowing if it was a real bomb


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Cocaine



That’s one huge bag of coke. No wonder he threw it away.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> I've lived all over london since moving over from dublin.
> 
> but fair play that civilans of this city got directly involved without knowing it was a real bomb


I've lived here all my life and I've never been prouder of it than over four days in August 2011


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

AFAIK, the consenus among those who study the issue is that there's no good reason to suppose that the ranks of the terrorists contain more mentally ill people than the general population.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I've lived here all my life and I've never been prouder of it than over four days in August 2011



aye i've posted about duggen on here


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

From this report, it sounds as though 'martyrdom-by-police' was exactly what the perpetrator wanted. Wear a hoax bomb vest and then fiddle with it...


----------



## ricbake (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh they love this shit, they get to pretend they're Regan and Carter


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

ricbake said:


> View attachment 191351


REGAN


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)




----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

ricbake said:


> View attachment 191351


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> That’s one huge bag of coke. No wonder he threw it away.


He's fucked a few peoples weekend up there being a hero.


----------



## marty21 (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> REGAN
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Put your trousers on, you're nicked.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 29, 2019)

it does appear to be some who is quite likely mentally ill and not a terroist group


no one claiming responsibility

bit like the guy from parson green


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Nah, it def a tissue - you can see him get it out at the start when he's getting the knife, i don't know why he tried to chuck it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Ax^ said:


> it does appear to be some who is quite likely mentally ill and not a terroist group
> 
> 
> no one claiming responsibility
> ...



ISIS normally claims responsibility, but they are a bit fucked ATM.


----------



## dylanredefined (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> From this report, it sounds as though 'martyrdom-by-police' was exactly what the perpetrator wanted. Wear a hoax bomb vest and then fiddle with it...
> 
> View attachment 191350


 Drill for suicide bomber is shoot them lots of time and hope not to die.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ISIS normally claims responsibility, but they are a bit fucked ATM.


Yes, meeting Corbyn.

This_ claims responsibility_ guff is well guff, opportunistic stuff apart from maybe the large scale attack in france. It just doesn't work like that.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> Drill for suicide bomber is shoot them lots of time and hope not to die.


It's head shots.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 29, 2019)

I thought he was trying to flick it open so he could wrap it round the knife, and lost hold of it.

The hanky, I mean.


----------



## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> ISIS normally claims responsibility, but they are a bit fucked ATM.



There's types and context of claiming responsibility though, from having had some hand in the planning and maybe execution and knowing when it was going to happen, through to just hearing about it same as us and then claiming it as 'theirs'. Usually and recently it's been more the later I think, and that isn't so swiftly after the attack usually.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I thought he was trying to flick it open so he could wrap it round the knife, and lost holding of it.
> 
> The hanky, I mean.


Trying to preserve evidence - the boy done good.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, meeting Corbyn.
> 
> This_ claims responsibility_ guff is well guff, opportunistic stuff apart from maybe the large scale attack in france. It just doesn't work like that.



I was being flippant. 

They may inspire such attacks, but no direct connection.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Trying to preserve evidence - the boy done good.




He’s also putting his arm out to keep onlookers back. And he’s holding the knife as lightly as he can, and blade downwards.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> I was being flippant.
> 
> They may inspire such attacks, but no direct connection.


I meant ax's post not yours in substance but added yours for a bit of red hot political humour.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I thought he was trying to flick it open so he could wrap it round the knife, and lost holding of it.
> 
> The hanky, I mean.



That's what I thought too. He's holding the knife kind of awkwardly in the crook between his thumb and forefinger, presumably so as not to get his prints on it. Quite remarkable presence of mind to be honest.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

So reducing the terrorist threat level during a General Election period turned out to be a master-stroke.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

Man with knife, definitely civilian, probably a lawyer. Could be wrong but not sure the guy restraining the terrorist/service user is a civilian. Looks like he knows what he's doing and hard as fuck, the knife is gone and the bloke has a bomb on him and he's the only one not wearing a coat.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Surely 73 virgins



Soz lads, a typo. Blame the Koranic typesetters, it’s actually 73 vegans. Of the pasty, proselytising dullard variety. This one’s just done a half marathon and wants to tell you about it. Enjoy paradise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> So reducing the terrorist threat level during a General Election period turned out to be a master-stroke.


Entirely irrelevant, in all likelihood, to this particular incident.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Second time at least with fake bomb vests. That may be telling. Where are the skills? Do they have neither the material or knowledge to it? Are they so cut off from those that have both/either?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Soz lads, a typo. Blame the Koranic typesetters, it’s actually 73 vegans. Of the pasty, proselytising dullard variety. This one’s just done a half marathon and wants to tell you about it. Enjoy paradise.


What I meant was dead twat virgin meets 72 virgins of whatever sort in paradise, 1+72=73


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Entirely irrelevant, in all likelihood, to this particular incident.


Yes, because obviously a major, national 'democratic' event is not going to attract those intent on terror.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 29, 2019)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

> Some three-and-a-half hours on from the attack, the number of casualties is thought to be at least 10 people.
> 
> There is serious concern about the condition of two of those injured.
> 
> Officially no figure has been given for the number of the members of the public injured. The suspect was shot by police and died at the scene, police have said.



London Bridge attack: terror incident suspect shot dead by police – live updates


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> View attachment 191353


----------



## nogojones (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> Judging by the description, he's from the 72 virgin varieties.


Another incel attack


----------



## treelover (Nov 29, 2019)

Not nice to say given events, but Johnson will now have a chance to look prime ministerial, initiate Cobra, etc.


----------



## MrCurry (Nov 29, 2019)

Has anyone mentioned yet Priti Patel’s brazenly opportunist declaration that the terrorist threat was to be lowered, which just happened to coincidence with the start of the election campaign?  Good to know we can trust our government.

EDIT: I see brogdale did.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2019)

Labour pal tells me the party has suspended campaigning in the capital ...inc. tomorrow...that'll be a lot of street stalls not happening...might actually go to the shops.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Labour pal tells me the party has suspended campaigning in the capital ...inc. tomorrow...that'll be a lot of street stalls not happening...might actually go to the shops.


Imagine they're encouraging people to get a train to the midlands...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Imagine they're encouraging people to get a train to the midlands...


Handy this LONDON IN MOURNING bollocks.


----------



## T & P (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


>


Shhhh. Don't what you could possibly be implying as that's the correct bridge on the image. Don't you remember we sold the previous incarnation of "Tower" Bridge to an American?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

One member of the public has died. 



> One member of the public has died after the attack, sources involved in the NHS response to the incident say.
> 
> All the casualties were taken to the Royal London hospital in Whitechapel, one of the capital’s four designated major trauma centres.
> 
> ...


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> One member of the public has died.


Fucker


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

brogdale said:


> Yes, because obviously a major, national 'democratic' event is not going to attract those intent on terror.


That wasn't really my point. My point concerned an individual strapping on a fake suicide vest, picking up a knife and wielding that knife on London Bridge. He may or may not have been motivated to do that by the imminent election, but it is hard to see how the level of terrorism threat as judged by the government made any difference to the course of events.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Well done brave passerby people who tackled this scum to the ground and well done Police for ending it so quickly.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> One member of the public has died.


FFS


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That wasn't really my point. My point concerned an individual strapping on a fake suicide vest, picking up a knife and wielding that knife on London Bridge. He may or may not have been motivated to do that by the imminent election, but it is hard to see how the level of terrorism threat as judged by the government made any difference to the course of events.


It's the other way round - they can point to a lower threat level as success. As this being less likely to happen.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

Fuck


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> One member of the public has died.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

How do they know the bomb is a hoax so fast? Useless cunt couldn't even make a convincing fake suicide vest. Crap terrorism by sad loner brigade. One person dead. R.I.P.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)




----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> How do they know the bomb is a hoax so fast? Useless cunt couldn't even make a convincing fake suicide vest. Crap terrorism by sad loner brigade. One person dead. R.I.P.


The last lot were taped up toilet rolls to look like dynamite. Like from roadrunner.

Like my above point, no contact with explosives or people who know what they look like today.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Two people dead. Fuck that piece of shit.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

2 members of the public dead now, and 3 in a serious condition.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

2? Fuck.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


>



Why even give that useless who-the-fuck-are-you twat the oxygen of publicity?


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

Yeah of course the answer is to arm everybody. Fucking knobhead.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Yeah of course the answer is to arm everybody. Fucking knobhead.



It works in the US.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The last lot were taped up toilet rolls to look like dynamite. Like from roadrunner.
> 
> Like my above point, no contact with explosives or people who know what they look like today.



Random stabbers, jizzed up on Jihadi crackerjack shit.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> It works in the US.


Of course! Silly me.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> Why even give that useless who-the-fuck-are-you twat the oxygen of publicity?


Glass houses much?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Of course! Silly me.



The guy is a Trump supporting knobhead, he retweeted this from another knobhead.



Yay, it's Sadiq Khan's fault.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The guy is a Trump supporting knobhead, he retweeted this from another knobhead.
> 
> 
> 
> Yay, it's Sadiq Khan's fault.



I saw that. I try to avoid Hopkins as much as possible. No fucking idea how this can be Khan's fault but she's just an idiot so, whatever.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Badgers said:


> Glass houses much?


Really not sure you're on about, but given the grave seriousness of this still raw incident, I'm not interested in pursuing your 'point.'


*post edited


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

cupid_stunt said:


> The guy is a Trump supporting knobhead, he retweeted this from another knobhead.
> 
> 
> Yay, it's Sadiq Khan's fault.


Don't post shit from that arsewipe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> I'm not interested in pursuing your killer 'point.'


Not the sort of language I thought you'd use given what's just happened.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Not the sort of language I thought you'd use given what's just happened.


Completely accidental of course. Please let's keep this thread on topic.


----------



## Celyn (Nov 29, 2019)

Oh, that's horrible about the two people dead. Severity of injuries hadn't been mentioned so I vaguely hoped they'd be ok.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

Celyn said:


> Oh, that's horrible about the two people dead. Severity of injuries hadn't been mentioned so I vaguely hoped they'd be ok.


It's awful. This piece of worthless cowardly shitjuice will have wreaked havoc on so many people's lives.

I wonder who's going to be the first shameless politician to try and capitalise on this tragedy?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

Dreadful that people have died, utter cunt should burn in hell.

Kudos to those taking him down, have we reached a point where anyone acting like this just gets maximum violence inflicted, same as since 9-11 any hijackers can expect?


----------



## StoneRoad (Nov 29, 2019)

Horrible incident, brave people who tackled him.
RIP to the two who have already died and many condolences to their families and friends


----------



## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> It's awful. This piece of worthless cowardly shitjuice will have wreaked havoc on so many people's lives.
> 
> I wonder who's going to be the first shameless politician to try and capitalise on this tragedy?



There's not one who's not frantically doing their own calculations as when they can do so in decency.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> What I meant was dead twat virgin meets 72 virgins of whatever sort in paradise, 1+72=73


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Don't post shit from that arsewipe.



I don't see what the problem is, in highlighting what a fuckwit she is, when she comes out with crap like that.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

First moronic conspiracy theory has already surfaced on Twitter, FFS.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


>



Looks dodgy.


----------



## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


>



I wanted 72 Katy Perry's, but all I got was 72 Howard's from Big Bang Theory....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> I wanted 72 Katy Perry's, but all I got was 72 Howard's from Big Bang Theory....


You'll get what you're given and enjoy them


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2019)

editor said:


> It's awful. This piece of worthless cowardly shitjuice will have wreaked havoc on so many people's lives.
> 
> I wonder who's going to be the first shameless politician to try and capitalise on this tragedy?



Johnson’s already on about our values prevailing.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Dreadful that people have died, utter cunt should burn in hell.
> 
> Kudos to those taking him down, have we reached a point where anyone acting like this just gets maximum violence inflicted, same as since 9-11 any hijackers can expect?


Big props to the policeman who pulled the trigger on him too. It can't be easy to make that call and end a life in the heat of a very stressful moment knowing that his actions will be scrutinised by the whole world. A very good man. I hope he deals with it ok.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Johnson’s already on about our values prevailing.


England prevails


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ... not sure there's much political capital here at first look.


We have a winner!

Nicola Sturgeon just had a good go at it.

'[The attack] shows the importance of sharing intelligence with European agencies ... blah blah ... Brexit ... bollocks'


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> England prevails



Steadfast.


----------



## Dandred (Nov 29, 2019)

It will all be down to either some stupid gang shit or another brainwashed religious person.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Dandred said:


> It will all be down to either some stupid gang shit or another brainwashed religious person.


Just what this thread needed. Another informed poster.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon just had a good go at it.
> 
> '[The attack] shows the importance of sharing intelligence with European agencies ... blah blah ... Brexit ... bollocks'


Ah, the myth that somehow there could always have been something done to prevent it.

two dead now.   As said above, well done to everyone who stood up to him.

Good response from Corbyn fwiw, suspending campaigning for a day, and saying this:



> We owe a deep debt of gratitude to our police and emergency services, and the brave members of the public who put themselves in harm's way to protect others.
> 
> "We must remain united across all our communities, and we cannot let our democratic process be derailed by acts of terror."



That's about as good as he could have said, I think.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> We have a winner!
> 
> Nicola Sturgeon just had a good go at it.
> 
> '[The attack] shows the importance of sharing intelligence with European agencies ... blah blah ... Brexit ... bollocks'


I'd really like to see her working out on that one.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

I don't think that's fair, it was a response to a question about security in the wake of today's attack.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> I don't think that's fair, it was a response to a question about security in the wake of today's attack.


Ah, so are you saying spy is misrepresenting her?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

emanymton said:


> Ah, so are you saying spy is misrepresenting her?


I've just replayed it. 

Killer b is being fair.

The question was "what do panel members intend to do to tackle security issues in the future?"

Tory dude fluffs it a bit, bangs on about investing in security and wanks about brave members of the public ... 

NS says "we need to keep access to the best intelligence which is one of many reasons that leaving the EU is a mistake..."

_That is absolutely _making political capital out of todays events though.


----------



## editor (Nov 29, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ah, the myth that somehow there could always have been something done to prevent it.
> 
> two dead now.   As said above, well done to everyone who stood up to him.
> 
> ...


And now there's a fake tweet on Twitter from Corbyn.  

Probably another Tory fake news cunt.

A fake Jeremy Corbyn tweet about the London Bridge attack is being circulated on social media


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Which day of Christmas is that?



That would be Christmas.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

Knife attack in the Hague maybe. Possibly nothing and unrelated.


----------



## A380 (Nov 29, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Big props to the policeman who pulled the trigger on him too. It can't be easy to make that call and end a life in the heat of a very stressful moment knowing that his actions will be scrutinised by the whole world. A good man. I hope he deals with it ok.


Might not be a man. Met women with guns have a not bad record in this kind of thing...


----------



## blossie33 (Nov 29, 2019)

Seems like the original attack started near Fishmongers Hall


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 29, 2019)

And oxford street as well?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 29, 2019)

A380 said:


> Might not be a man. Met women with guns have a not bad record in this kind of thing...


It's a bloke in the videos.

Everyone else is running away, presumably because they've clocked there's a bomb (or something that looks like one). He retreats initially, then returns forward to shoot him in the full knowledge that he could be blown up.

On the face of it that's absolutely outstanding professionalism and bravery by the police officer.


----------



## DexterTCN (Nov 29, 2019)

This is terrible.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 29, 2019)

Sad this is still happening. Seems to be death after death at the moment. Makes me want to cry.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

I mean, bloody hell, that's improvisation of a very high order


----------



## kebabking (Nov 29, 2019)

The inquest should be funny - 'and how did this wanker receive wounds consistent with being charged by an angry Narwhal?'....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2019)

hash tag said:


> That would be Christmas.


Which of the 12 days of Christmas?


----------



## hash tag (Nov 29, 2019)

Sorry, should have read they could have made my Christmas.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

kebabking said:


> The inquest should be funny - 'and how did this wanker receive wounds consistent with being charged by an angry Narwhal?'....



Coroner: "and in what is a first for this Court we'll be hearing evidence from a *checks notes* marine mammologist from *checks notes again* Nunavut?!"


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 29, 2019)

We need his details, the finest Christmas hamper ever is in order.


----------



## Cid (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I mean, bloody hell, that's improvisation of a very high order
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 191380




Also credit to Kim Jong-Un on the left there.


----------



## T & P (Nov 29, 2019)

The more I watch the footage of the member of the public who takes away the knife then throws away that tissue or paper-like thing, the more it looks to me like he suddenly concluded he really didn’t want to be caught with it. Unless perhaps he’d previously used the tissue to wipe a victim’s blood and put it in his pocket, and then was suddenly horrified by it. But it doesn’t sound very likely.

Malas an aside thought, those white ceramic kitchen knives seem to have become a favourite of stabby terrorists/ nutjobs


----------



## clicker (Nov 29, 2019)

T & P said:


> The more I watch the footage of the member of the public who takes away the knife then throws away that tissue or paper-like thing, the more it looks to me like he suddenly concluded he really didn’t want to be caught with it. Unless perhaps he’d previously used the tissue to wipe a victim’s blood and put it in his pocket, and then was suddenly horrified by it. But it doesn’t sound very likely.
> 
> Malas an aside thought, those white ceramic kitchen knives seem to have become a favourite of stabby terrorists/ nutjobs


To me it just looked like he suddenly realised he was holding possible evidence and was trying not to contaminate it too much. So was going to wrap the handle in the tissue. Or it had blood on it. 
Why haven't they released the locations of the 5 stabbings? Or were they all in Fishmongers Hall maybe.


----------



## LDC (Nov 29, 2019)

Known to the authorities and on a tag after being released for previous terror offences. Shit.


----------



## josef1878 2.0 (Nov 29, 2019)

A convicted terrorist on licence according to bbc?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

josef1878 2.0 said:


> A convicted terrorist on licence according to bbc?



Where does it say he's a convicted terrorist?


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 29, 2019)

josef1878 2.0 said:


> A convicted terrorist on licence according to bbc?



They’ll blame Corbyn no doubt!


----------



## josef1878 2.0 (Nov 29, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Where does it say he's a convicted terrorist?



What i saw on bbc news


----------



## harpo (Nov 29, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Where does it say he's a convicted terrorist?


Everywhere on the media.


----------



## josef1878 2.0 (Nov 29, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> They’ll blame Corbyn no doubt!



If he is previously convicted then it's a bigger problem for those in charge now


----------



## ricbake (Nov 29, 2019)

The stick is a Narwhal Tusk


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

josef1878 2.0 said:


> What i saw on bbc news


Yeah I just seen that. Don't know his name or what terrorism he's been convicted of.

eta On probation after release from prison on terror related offences


----------



## harpo (Nov 29, 2019)

A tusk, a fire extinguisher and pure bravery. And Americans wonder why we don't need guns.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 29, 2019)

Just seen that one of those who tackled the guy was a convicted murderer on day release.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 29, 2019)

Could anything more starkly demonstrates the collapse of the justice system than this? 

Resources, staffing, strategy, a proper rehabilitation programme, thought out offender management and a planned approach to keeping murderous scum off the streets. All crumbled under the austerity programme


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> Just seen that one of those who tackled the guy was a convicted murderer on day release.



WTF! Convicted murderer on day release takes down released convicted terrorist.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 29, 2019)

Fucks sake. Everyone who has followed this thread knows what is being shown here, but it is _incredibly _irresponsible for the Telegraph to juxtapose this image with that headline


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 29, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> WTF! Convicted murderer on day release takes down released convicted terrorist.



It appears that a number of those involved - the perp and those who got stuck in and tackled him- were all on day release from prison as part of their ‘rehabilitation’


----------



## D'wards (Nov 29, 2019)

London Bridge attack suspect had been jailed for terrorism

London Bridge attack suspect had been jailed for terrorism


----------



## agricola (Nov 29, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Fucks sake. Everyone who has followed this thread knows what is being shown here, but it is _incredibly _irresponsible for the Telegraph to juxtapose this image with that headline
> 
> View attachment 191383



Indeed, and I am not sure Richard Walton's comment about "The brave, fast response by.... the firearms officers of the Metropolitan Police" is likely to go down well with the City of London officers who dealt with this.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 29, 2019)

Also the guy who took the knife and was seen chucking something away is apparently an off duty member of the transport police.


----------



## killer b (Nov 29, 2019)

Fucking hell, people are really going to struggle with the cognitive dissonance with this one aren't they?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

D'wards said:


> London Bridge attack suspect had been jailed for terrorism
> 
> London Bridge attack suspect had been jailed for terrorism



And he was back out on the streets ffs.

Need to be locked away for life on first conviction.


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 29, 2019)

conspiraloons are gonna have a field day with this


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Fucking hell, people are really going to struggle with the cognitive dissonance with this one aren't they?



Yep and it's already happening. Here we go ffs


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 29, 2019)

Orang Utan said:


> conspiraloons are gonna have a field day with this



Have the tinfoilers blamed Russia or Brexit yet?


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 29, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Have the tinfoilers blamed Russia or Brexit yet?


i'm sure there have already been false flag claims - i'm not going looking for them though


----------



## Dragon 24 (Nov 29, 2019)

Cid said:


> Also credit to Kim Jong-Un on the left there.


He gets everywhere eh?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 29, 2019)

Dragon 24 said:


> He gets everywhere eh?



No he's always on the left!


----------



## Dragon 24 (Nov 29, 2019)

I just read they still haven’t ID’d some of the inured/deceased yet. Horrific for people waiting for news of loved ones. I tuned the tele off and didn’t tell my kids. Maybe tomorrow, but gets harder and harder to try and explain the unexplainable to them. So sorry for those that died. 

Stay safe tonight London.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

killer b said:


> Fucking hell, people are really going to struggle with the cognitive dissonance with this one aren't they?


No they're not


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2019)

These aren't people.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> These aren't people.



The victims are people. The media, politicos and loons are all Pantomime crisis actors.


----------



## Humberto (Nov 30, 2019)

Isn't Trump due a visit? That should help.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 30, 2019)

Humberto said:


> Isn't Trump due a visit? That should help.



Yeah, Nato summit starts on Tuesday


----------



## IC3D (Nov 30, 2019)

I was in london bridge having lunch and got locked in the cafe. 
It was scary watching people fleeing for their lives past the window half expecting a Maniac to pop up Infront of the window.
Not going to forget this soon.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

It all seems to have started at an event for rehabed offenders at Fishmongers Hall.  Some sources are saying the people who piled on were at the event, but how did this man leave the event to go onto the street, strapped with a fake but seemingly realistic suicide vest, tape a knife to his hand, brandish another knife and get a third of the way across London Bridge?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It all seems to have started at an event for rehabed offenders at Fishmongers Hall.  Some sources are saying the people who piled on were at the event, but how did this man leave the event to go onto the street, strapped with a fake but seemingly realistic suicide vest, tape a knife to his hand, brandish another knife and get a third of the way across London Bridge?



Seems like the attacker was attending the event for rehab prisoners.


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

From the Independent
_The Times reported the attacker was attending a Cambridge University conference on prisoner rehabilitation being held at Fishmongers’ Hall and had threatened to blow up the building.
A maintenance worker who witnessed the attack said: “Some of the guys who were on top of him were ex-prisoners and they had all been in the Fishmongers’ Hall.”
_


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

But how can you shrug on a convincing vest in one of the most highly CCTVd areas of the county?  How can you even get it there?  At best it's lax security.  That vest must have got past staff at the original unit, drivers, security staff at the building and the (hopefully) plentiful support staff accompanying those being rehabed. Not to mention being put on, and the wearer leaving the building.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> But how can you shrug on a convincing vest in one of the most highly CCTVd areas of the county? .


Using your hands and stuff?


----------



## elbows (Nov 30, 2019)

There are situations where the vest doesnt need to be very convincing in the grand scheme of things to be quite convincing enough at that moment. The context is enough to make the most feeble of vests take on temporary gravitas.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 30, 2019)

elbows said:


> There are situations where the vest doesnt need to be very convincing in the grand scheme of things to be quite convincing enough at that moment. The context is enough to make the most feeble of vests take on temporary gravitas.



A home made explosive vest could look like a lot of things- expecting anyone to make a certain call in the heat of a moment seems ridiculous.


----------



## clicker (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> But how can you shrug on a convincing vest in one of the most highly CCTVd areas of the county?  How can you even get it there?  At best it's lax security.  That vest must have got past staff at the original unit, drivers, security staff at the building and the (hopefully) plentiful support staff accompanying those being rehabed. Not to mention being put on, and the wearer leaving the building.


If it was under his jacket it wouldn't be seen until he undid his jacket?


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Nov 30, 2019)

From the Guardian..._There were reports that one man had taken a five-foot long narwhale tusk from Fishmongers’ Hall to confront the attacker._
Not wishing to underplay the seriousness of the incident, but this conjours up a wonderful mental image.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 30, 2019)

pseudonarcissus said:


> From the Guardian..._There were reports that one man had taken a five-foot long narwhale tusk from Fishmongers’ Hall to confront the attacker._
> Not wishing to underplay the seriousness of the incident, but this conjours up a wonderful mental image.



This photo of Narwhal Man, also Fire Extinguisher Dude, is a hell of an image too. What a strange and sad fucking day.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

clicker said:


> If it was under his jacket it wouldn't be seen until he undid his jacket?


The point I am making is how did this sequence of events happen in such a high security area FFS.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> The point I am making is how did this sequence of events happen in such a high security area FFS.



Is it such a high security area? It's public after all. Even if it's true that the attacker was out on licence, wearing a tag, and attending a rehab event - who's going to be searching him?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> But how can you shrug on a convincing vest in one of the most highly CCTVd areas of the county?  How can you even get it there?  At best it's lax security.  That vest must have got past staff at the original unit, drivers, security staff at the building and the (hopefully) plentiful support staff accompanying those being rehabed. Not to mention being put on, and the wearer leaving the building.


You don't need to be a terrorist to think of using a toilet cubicle


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It all seems to have started at an event for rehabed offenders at Fishmongers Hall.  Some sources are saying the people who piled on were at the event, but how did this man leave the event to go onto the street, strapped with a fake but seemingly realistic suicide vest, tape a knife to his hand, brandish another knife and get a third of the way across London Bridge?


He walked out the door


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> And he was back out on the streets ffs.
> 
> Need to be locked away for life on first conviction.


When you've had some rest perhaps you could think about why this ^ is such a daft post


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Nov 30, 2019)

IC3D said:


> I was in london bridge having lunch and got locked in the cafe.
> It was scary watching people fleeing for their lives past the window half expecting a Maniac to pop up Infront of the window.
> Not going to forget this soon.


I can imagine you won’t , must have been terrifying for you


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Is it such a high security area? It's public after all. Even if it's true that the attacker was out on licence, wearing a tag, and attending a rehab event - who's going to be searching him?



I mean, the whole fucking point of the managed release process in all its forms is to treat people like regular people.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Is it such a high security area? It's public after all. Even if it's true that the attacker was out on licence, wearing a tag, and attending a rehab event - who's going to be searching him?


The people who organised the event. It wasn't that long ago there was a ring of steel round the area.


----------



## ginger_syn (Nov 30, 2019)

I suppose building security did a regular bag check but stopped short at a full body search.


----------



## clicker (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> The people who organised the event. It wasn't that long ago there was a ring of steel round the area.


But to all intents and purposes, it was just a seminar in Fishmongers Hall? Why would anyone be patted down going in or out?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 30, 2019)

ginger_syn said:


> I suppose building security did a regular bag check but stopped short at a full body search.



Bag checks are frankly nothing anyway.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> This photo of Narwhal Man, also Fire Extinguisher Dude, is a hell of an image too. What a strange and sad fucking day.
> 
> View attachment 191388


----------



## dylanredefined (Nov 30, 2019)

It would easily look like a folded up jacket in a bag. Unless you empty a bag would easily miss identify it and easy to hide a few knives. Had loads of vests handed in Basrah think Saddams forces handed them out with money and guns for anyone who wanted to be a martyr. Turned out they all took the money and kept the guns and handed the vests in after they were sure whoever handed them out wasn't going to check up on them.
  though some used the explosives to go fishing with.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

> Boris Johnson says it is a 'mistake' to let criminals out of prison early, and promises enhanced police presence in the wake of 'heartbreaking' attack



LIVE: London Bridge knife attacker known to police and had links to terror groups

And a tragic mistake at that.

But in the case for criminals with prior convictions for terrorism like this scumbag, after first conviction they should never see the light of day again, locked up for life imo.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

This is a bit odd & not that funny. Did they have to shoot him a 2nd time?



ETA not questioning the need to shoot him a 2nd time but just interested if he was.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> This is a bit odd & not that funny. Did they have to shoot him a 2nd time?





Jesus...the guy posting that is a fucking moron.


----------



## Ted Striker (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


>




FUCK YOU IM NARWHAL


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> The point I am making is how did this sequence of events happen in such a high security area FFS.


Unless you put an armed copper on every street corner it’s very easy to see how this could happen. Credit to the old bill and bystanders for ending it so quickly with only two deaths.


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

In the various bits of video it appears that the three who initially tackled him are wearing similar lanyards and cards. Perhaps issued by Fishmongers Hall to those attending an event, it was the only place where a Narwahl tusk was available and the nearest building to the incident that would have had a fire extinguisher like that.
The guy grabbing knife man Usman Khan has been identified as James Ford, killer of Ashford's Amanda Champion in 2003.
I imagine Narwhal man and Extinguisher man, the two who armed themselves so imaginatively may well have been attending the same event for perhaps similar reasons.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> LIVE: London Bridge knife attacker known to police and had links to terror groups
> 
> And a tragic mistake at that.
> 
> But in the case for criminals with prior convictions for terrorism like this scumbag, after first conviction they should never see the light of day again, locked up for life imo.



Wouldn't really help things like the peace process if it applied all across the board.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> LIVE: London Bridge knife attacker known to police and had links to terror groups
> 
> And a tragic mistake at that.
> 
> But in the case for criminals with prior convictions for terrorism like this scumbag, after first conviction they should never see the light of day again, locked up for life imo.


So do you mean all convictions under terrorism legislation should carry a whole life tariff?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> The people who organised the event. It wasn't that long ago there was a ring of steel round the area.


The so called ring of steel wouldn’t have stopped this. It only prevented large vehicles from entering The City without being checked, not individuals.


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

Is it clear yet if the knife attack started inside the Fishmongers Hall and if the injured and dead where attacked in there?
Perhaps the attack started as Usman Khan arrived at the venue, one would assume he might struggle to get two kitchen knives past any security, let alone a dummy suicide vest.
If they had security but badges would indicate something.
Doubtless the newspapers will soon be giving us graphics of the interior...


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 30, 2019)

Coming to this really late as I was busy all afternoon and eve with no battery on my phone.   So someone runs amok with a knife and a visible  suicide bomb belt.   They are disarmed by a person with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher who are ex cons.  Then they are shot by police .  Have I left anything out?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.



Maybe, because it was a hoax vest, it wasn’t as bulky and obvious as a real one would be.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.


It wasn't real...doesn't have to be bulky...they know what's needed to get shot.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 30, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Coming to this really late as I was busy all afternoon and eve with no battery on my phone.   So someone runs amok with a knife and a visible  suicide bomb belt.   They are disarmed by a person with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher who are ex cons.  Then they are shot by police .  Have I left anything out?




That’s about the size of it.  With added Britishness of all stamps.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

A jacket with a few bog rolls and bits of wire would be convincing enough to get you shot in the heat of a moment like that.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> It wasn't real...doesn't have to be bulky...they know what's needed to get shot.




Just so. It only needs to be a little bit like a real vest, just enough to make people think it may be a real one.


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

brogdale said:


> It wasn't real...doesn't have to be bulky...they know what's needed to get shot.


Is it about wanting to get shot or about trying to frighten people into running away rather than trying to stop the attack?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.


You're puzzled by so much. All you'd need is pockets of cloth filled with paper and wires here and there, and if you've just been at a conference the paper readily available.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 30, 2019)

ricbake said:


> Is it about wanting to get shot or about trying to frighten people into running away rather than trying to stop the attack?



It’s about wanting to get shot. Martyrdom.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.


What's the suggestion here then?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So do you mean all convictions under terrorism legislation should carry a whole life tariff?



Perhaps not all but certainly in this case as he had previously plotted to blow up the stock exchange.

When someone plans that level of catastrophic loss of life, they should get life behind bars.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Maybe, because it was a hoax vest, it wasn’t as bulky and obvious as a real one would be.


Aye, could be.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> What's the suggestion here then?


How do you mean?


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Perhaps not all but certainly in this case as he had previously plotted to blow up the stock exchange.
> 
> When someone plans that level of catastrophic loss of life, they should get life behind bars.



No room for reform, eh? Once a terrorist, always a terrorist?


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> It’s about wanting to get shot. Martyrdom.


Martyrdom would be more certain if it was a real device...


----------



## 5t3IIa (Nov 30, 2019)

Re: tagging. My understanding (After training) is that it is only to monitor curfews, and the subjects location vis a vis being at their residence (therefore near their EMS (electronic monitoring service) box) at the correct times. Not their location in a wider area. If, for example, any of the other attendees at this event who have tags, and were late home for curfew an alert goes from EMS to their probation offender manager with dates & times. The OM could  then mark the curfew breach as acceptable, dependent on circumstances/proof etc. Or unacceptable, and repeated breaches could then lead to the curfew order going back to court.

edit: I’m aware that the thread isn’t talking about this at the moment, but I thought I’d add it anyway.


----------



## planetgeli (Nov 30, 2019)

ricbake said:


> Martyrdom would be more certain if it was a real device...



The point is they obviously don’t have access to real devices right now. Plastic terrorism. Still dangerous, and of no comfort to victims and their families, but plastic terrorism all the same.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> How do you mean?


Well are you suggesting he was allowed walk around knowing that he had a fake suicide vest on? That he was put up to it by authorities. How do _you _mean?


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Well are you suggesting he was allowed walk around knowing that he had a fake suicide vest on? That he was put up to it by authorities. How do _you _mean?


That's a bit far fetched. Why would you think that?


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

ricbake said:


> Martyrdom would be more certain if it was a real device...



Depends upon how proficient they were in their suicide vest manufacturing.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> That's a bit far fetched. Why would you think that?


Don't waste my time. Prick.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Nov 30, 2019)

Has any explanation for the lorry across the road been offered?
I first thought maybe just an impatient driver trying to do a U-turn (unlikely), now I'm thinking maybe they were trying get out of the road to let police cars/ambulances through.


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Don't waste my time. Prick.


Why even say it then?
Eta...er, 'prick'? Very nice!


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> So do you mean all convictions under terrorism legislation should carry a whole life tariff?


Yes.


----------



## BCBlues (Nov 30, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Coming to this really late as I was busy all afternoon and eve with no battery on my phone.   So someone runs amok with a knife and a visible  suicide bomb belt.   They are disarmed by a person with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher who are ex cons.  Then they are shot by police .  Have I left anything out?



There were three who battered him, narwhalman, fireextinguisherman and a chap who went in bare fisted and took a knife off the attacker.
Fair play to all three of them and thoughts go out to all the people affected by this, especially the families of the two dead.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 30, 2019)

Actually, they’re not quite ex-cons if they’re on day release. If the point you stop being a convict is when you’re fully out again. /pedant]


----------



## NoXion (Nov 30, 2019)

planetgeli said:


> It’s about wanting to get shot. Martyrdom.



Some martyrdom. Who's going to remember this dead prick as anyone but yet another pathetic cunt lashing out in a childish temper tantrum?

When I was reading about this event on the bus home from work last night, I couldn't help but recall the farcical Glasgow Airport attacks. The suicidal terror lot should be fucking ashamed at how regularly the Al-Clownshoe Brigade represents their laughable cause.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Nov 30, 2019)

NoXion said:


> Some martyrdom. Who's going to remember this dead prick as anyone but yet another pathetic cunt lashing out in a childish temper tantrum?
> 
> When I was reading about this event on the bus home from work last night, I couldn't help but recall the farcical Glasgow Airport attacks. The suicidal terror lot should be fucking ashamed at how regularly the Al-Clownshoe Brigade represents their laughable cause.




You are misunderstanding martyrdom in the Islamist context.


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You are misunderstanding martyrdom in the Islamist context.



Or indeed almost any religious context.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2019)

ricbake said:


> Is it about wanting to get shot or about trying to frighten people into running away rather than trying to stop the attack?


If the 'logic' of the knife attack is to kill as many as possible, then it's pretty obviously the former...not that the armed response units will concern themselves with motive.


----------



## rekil (Nov 30, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Jesus...the guy posting that is a fucking moron.


Holocaust denier, sandy hook loon etc. Well played mrski. My money was on the marty who should not be here.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Nov 30, 2019)

Could it be that you don't have to even go to the bother of making a real explosive vest - which must be quite a lot of bother. You can cause a great deal of panic and mayhem with a fake one.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 30, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Could it be that you don't have to even go to the bother of making a real explosive vest - which must be quite a lot of bother. You can cause a great deal of panic and mayhem with a fake one.


...and take numerous head shots.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You are misunderstanding martyrdom in the Islamist context.


No. He’s just taking the piss out of them.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 30, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> You are misunderstanding martyrdom in the Islamist context.





agricola said:


> Or indeed almost any religious context.



I'm not sure that I *want* to understand it. It's fucking pathetic. I'm not terrorised by this shit, and I doubt that most people in the country are either.

It's tragic for the innocents who get caught up in events like these, of course. But in terms of generating any wider impact I think such events are monumental failures.

The people who carry out this shit are laughable. To me they are overgrown babies who spit out their dummies so hard they end up killing themselves.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

NoXion said:


> I'm not sure that I *want* to understand it. It's fucking pathetic. I'm not terrorised by this shit, and I doubt that most people in the country are either.
> 
> It's tragic for the innocents who get caught up in events like these, of course. But in terms of generating any wider impact I think such events are monumental failures.
> 
> The people who carry out this shit are laughable. To me they are overgrown babies who spit out their dummies so hard they end up killing themselves.


Absolutely. They want martyrdom, I think we should do everything possible to ensure their rapid success. Cunts.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. They want martyrdom, I think we should do everything possible to ensure their rapid success. Cunts.



More than that, though. Their memory should be a laughingstock in the wider public consciousness. That's the real poison for their martyrdom, I reckon.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 30, 2019)

ricbake said:


> Martyrdom would be more certain if it was a real device...



Making a bomb in the UK is exceptionally hard without raising red flags, it also takes practice and skills which they are lacking in*

The aim of the vest is to make the public run the fuck away and the cops shoot to kill. This ensures there's no awkward "oh shit I'm sorry" moment a few years down the line, means the suicide can't dob in mates or preachers and cements the narrative this is a martyrdom and holy warrior in the minds of the already converted.

*Unlike the IRA the killers are also lacking allies willing to pass Semtex over an insecure borer.


----------



## Cid (Nov 30, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Coming to this really late as I was busy all afternoon and eve with no battery on my phone.   So someone runs amok with a knife and a visible  suicide bomb belt.   They are disarmed by a person with a narwhal tusk and a fire extinguisher who are ex cons.  Then they are shot by police .  Have I left anything out?



Think only one of them has been named as day release, metro has Narwhal man as a Polish chef.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

Cid said:


> Think only one of them has been named as an ex-con, metro has Narwhal man as a Polish chef.



A larger video. Polish chef named Lukasz


----------



## ricbake (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. They want martyrdom, I think we should do everything possible to ensure their rapid success. Cunts.


The sentence for advocating Martyrdom is death - win win!


----------



## High Voltage (Nov 30, 2019)

They come over ‘ere disarming “our” terrorists


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

When it comes to deterrence, stripping away any special status from "terrorist" offences would be a good start. The perpetrators of these outrages are often pathetic petty criminals and drifters, without any serious and consistent devotion to their proclaimed religion, seeking to end their failed lives in sick moment of drama. Fueling their pathetic delusions with grandiose briefings and show trials is counter-productive in the extreme.

As for sentencing, dependent as it is on rational concepts like deterrence, the criminal law's woefully ill-equipped to deal with fanatics. Since I believe that any retribution must be proportionate and the minimal necessary, conditions not met by warehousing people until their dotage, I'm not in favour of life without parole. There's an alternative. Civil commitment laws allow people to be sectioned if they're a threat to themselves or others, and after criminal sentences are served, should be used for such people.


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

NoXion said:


> More than that, though. Their memory should be a laughingstock in the wider public consciousness. That's the real poison for their martyrdom, I reckon.



It wouldn't, though.  People of faith who are willing to do something like this usually consider the wider public to be either the enemy, ignorant, lost or at least not part of the elect / the saved / "their" (the attackers) community.  Getting a negative reaction out of them, of any kind, is usually one of the points of the attack.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> When it comes to deterrence, stripping away any special status from "terrorist" offences would be a good start. The perpetrators of these outrages are often pathetic petty criminals and drifters, without any serious and consistent devotion to their proclaimed religion, seeking to end their failed lives in sick moment of drama. Fueling their pathetic delusions with grandiose briefings and show trials is counter-productive in the extreme.
> 
> As for sentencing, dependent as it is on rational concepts like deterrence, the criminal law's woefully ill-equipped to deal with fanatics. Since I believe that any retribution must be proportionate and the minimal necessary, conditions not met by warehousing people until their dotage, I'm not in favour of life without parole. There's an alternative. Civil commitment laws allow people to be sectioned if they're a threat to themselves or others, and after criminal sentences are served, should be used for such people.


Can you point to a show trial please?


----------



## Celyn (Nov 30, 2019)

Oh the "Daily Mail" should love that! These Polish people, coming over here and bashing our terrorists.


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> This is a bit odd & not that funny. Did they have to shoot him a 2nd time?
> 
> 
> 
> ETA not questioning the need to shoot him a 2nd time but just interested if he was.




Really not sure what the fuck of the point of you posting that was at all MrSki Fucking idiocy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Artaxerxes said:


> Making a bomb in the UK is exceptionally hard without raising red flags, it also takes practice and skills which they are lacking in*
> 
> The aim of the vest is to make the public run the fuck away and the cops shoot to kill. This ensures there's no awkward "oh shit I'm sorry" moment a few years down the line, means the suicide can't dob in mates or preachers and cements the narrative this is a martyrdom and holy warrior in the minds of the already converted.
> 
> *Unlike the IRA the killers are also lacking allies willing to pass Semtex over an insecure borer.


Making a bomb in the UK is as much a piece of piss as it is anywhere else. You can buy the stuff from amazon ffs or on the High Street
It's the testing that's more likely to be noticed


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

agricola said:


> It wouldn't, though.  People of faith who are willing to do something like this usually consider the wider public to be either the enemy, ignorant, lost or at least not part of the elect / the saved / "their" (the attackers) community.  Getting a negative reaction out of them, of any kind, is usually one of the points of the attack.


Yes, getting a positive from mates/god/scripture is good. They're not preaching here. They are attacking the enemy. The circle they're in laps this up - because they're _already _outside of decent society.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 30, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> No room for reform, eh? Once a terrorist, always a terrorist?


You're talking to a stereotypical right winger, here...


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> It's the vest that puzzles me. Bulky and suspicious yet not noticed anywhere.



Why the fuck is that a puzzle? You do know that people wear coats at this time of year, and even real suicide vests can be not that bulky, and this was one stuffed full of not very much. Probably no more noticeable that a puffy gilet. Unless you're hinting at some conspiracy rather than puzzle, in which case you can fuck right off.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 30, 2019)

High Voltage said:


> They come over ‘ere disarming “our” terrorists



Yes. I think the main point here is the nationality of one of those who got bravely stuck in.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> When it comes to deterrence, stripping away any special status from "terrorist" offences would be a good start. The perpetrators of these outrages are often pathetic petty criminals and drifters, without any serious and consistent devotion to their proclaimed religion, seeking to end their failed lives in sick moment of drama. Fueling their pathetic delusions with grandiose briefings and show trials is counter-productive in the extreme.
> 
> As for sentencing, dependent as it is on rational concepts like deterrence, the criminal law's woefully ill-equipped to deal with fanatics. Since I believe that any retribution must be proportionate and the minimal necessary, conditions not met by warehousing people until their dotage, I'm not in favour of life without parole. There's an alternative. Civil commitment laws allow people to be sectioned if they're a threat to themselves or others, and after criminal sentences are served, should be used for such people.


Ah internment. That's a really good idea


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah internment. That's a really good idea



Internment for everyone that suggests this was a false flag/conspiracy. Something we can all get behind.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Nov 30, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Really not sure what the fuck of the point of you posting that was at all MrSki Fucking idiocy.



I think we know the point. But perhaps Ski would like to clarify his reasons for posting it.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Can you point to a show trial please?


Any trial moved to the Old Bailey from outside the London area and held amidst security theatre. I'm not referring to its procedural merits.


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 30, 2019)

NoXion said:


> More than that, though. Their memory should be a laughingstock in the wider public consciousness. That's the real poison for their martyrdom, I reckon.



He killed two people in an attack in the heart of London, armed only with a knife, and one of the people who stopped him was a murderer who slit a disabled woman's throat in a random attack. And he successfully martyred himself at the hands of police. 

Obviously he wasn't the most successful or well-organised terrorist in the history of terrorism, but I don't think he's going to be a laughingstock, his side will probably consider this a win. They think they're at war and people who get killed in wars are generally treated as heroes by their own side, whether they accomplish anything or not.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Any trial moved to the Old Bailey from outside the London area and held amidst security theatre. I'm not referring to its procedural merits.


Can you point to a show trial please?

If you're not referring to the trial why say show trial?


----------



## harpo (Nov 30, 2019)

Of ffs of course I am not. But prisoners out on license at an event in a high security area getting through knives and fake suicide vests. Was there no security checks at all? Is this G4S at it's shitty best again?


----------



## Cid (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> When it comes to deterrence, stripping away any special status from "terrorist" offences would be a good start. The perpetrators of these outrages are often pathetic petty criminals and drifters, without any serious and consistent devotion to their proclaimed religion, seeking to end their failed lives in sick moment of drama. Fueling their pathetic delusions with grandiose briefings and show trials is counter-productive in the extreme.



Glasgow - engineering student and medical worker.
Manchester - dropped out of uni, worked in bakery.
7/7 - learning mentor (worked at schools), 22 yo guy who'd just left university (sports science, then islamic studies), 19 year old, 18 year old (member of local football and cricket teams).

It doesn't say a huge amount about them of course, but your characterisation doesn't really fit the available evidence.


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> Of ffs of course I am not. But prisoners out on license at an event in a high security area getting through knives and fake suicide vests. Was there no security checks at all? Is this G4S at it's shitty best again?



Where's this high security thing from? It's just a building with some vague checks to go in isn't it, nothing more?


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah internment. That's a really good idea


If you think that anyone sectioned under the MHA is "interned," a word usually applied to suspicionless mass-detention, I guess it would be. Outside that ... idiosyncratic definition, using civil commitment powers when justified by compelling evidence that someone's a threat to others, and releasing them the moment that condition ceases, is the precise opposite of internment.


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 30, 2019)

harpo said:


> Of ffs of course I am not. But prisoners out on license at an event in a high security area getting through knives and fake suicide vests. Was there no security checks at all? Is this G4S at it's shitty best again?



Actually, given it was an event for prisoners on day release, the organizers would be aiming for as close to a sense of normal life as possible, ergo not so full on security checks and the like. That's kind of the point of day release, to ease you back into society.


Edited to add, if they're on day release then they're not on licence. That bit only comes when you're out the door properly. At this moment they'd still be serving their sentence.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> If you think that anyone sectioned under the MHA is "interned," a word usually applied to suspicionless mass-detention, I guess it would be. Outside that ... idiosyncratic definition, using civil commitment powers when justified by compelling evidence that someone's a threat to others, and releasing them the moment that condition ceases, is the precise opposite of internment.


It's a word normally applied to suspicion led mass detention not suspicion less mass detention.

All this liberal sounding guff.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> If you think that anyone sectioned under the MHA is "interned," a word usually applied to suspicionless mass-detention, I guess it would be. Outside that ... idiosyncratic definition, using civil commitment powers when justified by compelling evidence that someone's a threat to others, and releasing them the moment that condition ceases, is the precise opposite of internment.


It was clear the mha wasn't being talked about. You're talking about holding people neither guilty of a crime nor charged and detaining them for an indeterminate length of time. That's internment, unless you actually have in mind arrest to prevent a breach of the peace.

The opposite of internment is non-internment, letting people roam free unless and until the rule of law sees them through the criminal justice system


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

_My, what a lovely velvet glove you have on_


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Can you point to a show trial please?
> 
> If you're not referring to the trial why say show trial?


Asked and answered: it's a phrase with a dual meaning used for rehetorical effect. Rhetoric and literalism don't play well together, I know.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> It's a word normally applied to suspicion led mass detention not suspicion less mass detention.
> 
> All this liberal sounding guff.


Vague suspicions of groups are different in kind to individualized suspicions, let alone convincing a court to a civil standard. By this ... whatever it is, every person nicked on suspicion of a crime is "interned."


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Asked and answered: it's a phrase with a dual meaning used for rehetorical effect. Rhetoric and literalism don't play well together, I know.


Perhaps you should just stick to saying what you mean and meaning what you say


----------



## 5t3IIa (Nov 30, 2019)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Vague suspicions of groups are different in kind to individualized suspicions, let alone convincing a court to a civil standard. By this ... whatever it is, every person nicked on suspicion of a crime is "interned."


You don't understand what internment is. It lasts rather longer than the police are allowed to hold you for, say, shoplifting a steak out of tesco


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Asked and answered: it's a phrase with a dual meaning used for rehetorical effect. Rhetoric and literalism don't play well together, I know.


Waffle. You misused both show trial and internment.


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Really not sure what the fuck of the point of you posting that was at all MrSki Fucking idiocy.


From the news coverage it makes out that the terrorist was killed by the initial two shots fired. The video I posted seems to put this in some doubt. Just wondering the timeline & what actually happened & if he died from the initial first two shots or was shot again.


----------



## xenon (Nov 30, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Really not sure what the fuck of the point of you posting that was at all MrSki Fucking idiocy.


The board's full of picture memes and  twitter shite now. Tweets posted sans comment. Credulous rubbish passed off as commentary and every wanker's tweeted drivel given another platform. This is supposed be a discussion board isn't it. Not oo look at what every no mark on the internet has said about something somewhere else.

Can't even read them on my phone so it's just a series of nothing posts much of the time.
 (On desktop ATM)

Alright, yes of course Twitter is a major forum and there is worthwhile stuff on their, stuff worthy of reporting on here from time to time. But please add a comment or thought about it. And yeah, what is the point in spreading these moron's fuckwittery.

Sorry, been meaning to post something like that for a while.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It was clear the mha wasn't being talked about. You're talking about holding people neither guilty of a crime nor charged and detaining them for an indeterminate length of time. That's internment, unless you actually have in mind arrest to prevent a breach of the peace.
> 
> The opposite of internment is non-internment, letting people roam free unless and until the rule of law sees them through the criminal justice system


I specifically said after criminal sentences are served, as a more humane alternative to life without parole. Civil commitment laws are already used this way in other common law jurisdictions. The disaster of indeterminate sentences tried to do it in England, but being dishonest about its intentions, ended up applying criminal principles to a civil concept, and people are left languishing in prison to this day.

How would you manage the threat posed by convicted terrorists who've not been deradicalized? Life without parole? Automatic release? Indeterminate sentences? What?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I specifically said after criminal sentences are served, as a more humane alternative to life without parole. Civil commitment laws are already used this way in other common law jurisdictions. The disaster of indeterminate sentences tried to do it in England, but being dishonest about its intentions, ended up applying criminal principles to a civil concept, and people are left languishing in prison to this day.
> 
> How would you manage the threat posed by convicted terrorists who've not been deradicalized? Life without parole? Automatic release? Indeterminate sentences? What?


The best way to deal with this is stopping people becoming terrorists in the first place. I wouldn't have invaded Iraq or first engaged with and then helped topple colonel gadaffi. Ask any physician, they'll all tell you prevention is better than cure.

But try as you might to wriggle and squirm you're still talking about internment in ways which are reminiscent of exile to siberia under the tsars


----------



## StoneRoad (Nov 30, 2019)

Since the "aim" seems to be "martyrdom by police" (aka known as "suicide by cop" with addition religion)
then the appropriate solution might be long term incarceration (and conversion to atheism !) rather than a bullet.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I specifically said after criminal sentences are served, as a more humane alternative to life without parole. Civil commitment laws are already used this way in other common law jurisdictions. The disaster of indeterminate sentences tried to do it in England, but being dishonest about its intentions, ended up applying criminal principles to a civil concept, and people are left languishing in prison to this day.
> 
> How would you manage the threat posed by convicted terrorists who've not been deradicalized? Life without parole? Automatic release? Indeterminate sentences? What?


Execution.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't understand what internment is. It lasts rather longer than the police are allowed to hold you for, say, shoplifting a steak out of tesco


Well yes, because it's not justified by individualized suspicion, let alone a finding of fact to a civil standard. Are the people whose detention was upheld in this American case "interned"? If so, the word's meaning has become so elastic it now means "any kind of detention I disagree with" (something that Butchers, with his admirable passion for linguistic precision, will doubtless be pulling you up on). If not, then neither's extending these principles to certain convicted terrorists.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 30, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> Since the "aim" seems to be "martyrdom by police" (aka known as "suicide by cop" with addition religion)
> then the appropriate solution might be long term incarceration (and conversion to atheism !) rather than a bullet.



I don't think forced conversion (aka "re-education" in parts of China) is a good idea.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Execution.



But what about their human rights etc?


----------



## xenon (Nov 30, 2019)

I don't think long term imprisonment has a great record converting inmates from religion to atheism.

There's the slight problem of being able to arrest the wouldbe marter. Unless Police are to assume in the first instance bombvests are fake and move in to arrest. Bomb vests just look dramatic. They could use petrol, viles of apparently contaminated blood, chemicals.
Shoot to incompasitate from a distance is fine with me.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Execution.


How's it hanging? 

I'm not gonna advocate that hottest of hot potatoes in this thread, but even it could, arguendo, be justified, it would be restricted to the very worst murderers, useless against extremely dangerous terrorists convicted of lesser crimes. LWoP or another method like that I've suggested would be needed for them.


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> From the news coverage it makes out that the terrorist was killed by the initial two shots fired. The video I posted seems to put this in some doubt. Just wondering the timeline & what actually happened & if he died from the initial first two shots or was shot again.



People often die slowly and noisily with a decent amount of flailing about though. Not always quite as simple as bang bang you're dead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> Well yes, because it's not justified by individualized suspicion, let alone a finding of fact to a civil standard. Are the people whose detention was upheld in this American case "interned"? If so, the word's meaning has become so elastic it now means "any kind of detention I disagree with" (something that Butchers, with his admirable passion for linguistic precision, will doubtless be pulling you up on). If not, then neither's extending these principles to certain convicted terrorists.


I only read as far as your agreement with my proposition you don't understand internment. I'm sure the rest is froth


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 30, 2019)

5t3IIa said:


> I agree, and know you know what you’re talking about, but one is still serving the sentence when on license.



Yeah, I was trying to differentiate between the custodial bit n when you're off home.


----------



## LiamO (Nov 30, 2019)

.


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> A larger video. Polish chef named Lukasz



Fucking brilliant stuff. All nationalities coming together to batter this worthless cunt bringing his shit to the streets. Makes me proud to be a Londoner.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> The best way to deal with this is stopping people becoming terrorists in the first place. I wouldn't have invaded Iraq or first engaged with and then helped topple colonel gadaffi. Ask any physician, they'll all tell you prevention is better than cure.


I agree about Iraq (or pretty much any other war Britain's got herself involved in since the turn of the century), which is why I marched against it at the time, but that presupposes that these horrific attacks are perpetrated for primarily ideological reasons, which is, at the very least, debatable, especially when the profile has elements in common with other spree killers. Horrific attacks have of course occured in countries that opposed the Iraq War, making this solution partial at best.


> But try as you might to wriggle and squirm you're still talking about internment in ways which are reminiscent of exile to siberia under the tsars


Tsarist, points for originality! 

I note you haven't actually proposed any solution for convicted persons, which gets you out of having to defend any coercive measures, but leaves you in no position to criticise those who do.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I agree about Iraq (or pretty much any other war Britain's got herself involved in since the turn of the century), which is why I marched against it at the time, but that presupposes that these horrific attacks are perpetrated for primarily ideological reasons, which is, at the very least, debatable, especially when the profile has elements in common with other spree killers. Horrific attacks have of course occured in countries that opposed the Iraq War, making this solution partial at best.
> 
> Tsarist, points for originality!
> 
> I note you haven't actually proposed any solution for convicted persons, which gets you out of having to defend any coercive measures, but leaves you in no position to criticise those who do.


don't talk such complete bollocks.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 30, 2019)

Yossarian said:


> He killed two people in an attack in the heart of London, armed only with a knife, and one of the people who stopped him was a murderer who slit a disabled woman's throat in a random attack. And he successfully martyred himself at the hands of police.
> 
> Obviously he wasn't the most successful or well-organised terrorist in the history of terrorism, but I don't think he's going to be a laughingstock, his side will probably consider this a win. They think they're at war and people who get killed in wars are generally treated as heroes by their own side, whether they accomplish anything or not.



Of course the cunts who pull this think they're the big damn heroes. Nobody thinks of themselves as the bad guy, card-carrying villains only exist in fiction as far as I know.

The point as I see it is that the rest of us shouldn't buy into their crap by reciprocating their warped perception of their vicious crimes as some kind of war.

They're dangerous fanatics and murderous criminals, and they should be treated as such. This particular "mArTyR" has met his ignominious end, and with contempt and ridicule is the only way he should be remembered by decent people, if in the first place he should be remembered at all.

I heard that at least two people have died because of this cunt. I'd like to know more about them, to be honest.


----------



## Azrael (Nov 30, 2019)

NoXion said:


> [...] The point as I see it is that the rest of us shouldn't buy into their crap by reciprocating their warped perception of their vicious crimes as some kind of war. [...]


Well said, and the core of my original post.

In the interest of letting things get back on topic I'll drop other point in this thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Azrael said:


> I note you haven't actually proposed any solution for convicted persons, which gets you out of having to defend any coercive measures, but leaves you in no position to criticise those who do.


terrorism is political violence, perpetrated to change the minds or alter the views of people. So to undermine radicalisation you need to show in some way that their belief in the efficacy or necessity of violence is either wrong in itself or no longer a tactic which will achieve their strategic goal. Arguments must be put or you'll simply be building more gaols as coercive methods won't remove - indeed will foster - the very violence you wish to end.


----------



## 2hats (Nov 30, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> the appropriate solution might be long term incarceration (and conversion to atheism !) rather than a bullet.


Saturation exposure to Richard Dawkins 24/7 for a couple of decades...


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 30, 2019)

Cid said:


> Think only one of them has been named as day release, metro has Narwhal man as a Polish chef.


How did people get armed with a tusk and fire extinguisher?


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 30, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> How did people get armed with a tusk and fire extinguisher?


the tusk was on display in the fishmonger's hall. i imagine the fire extinguisher was taken from there too


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Nov 30, 2019)

Thank you.  Urban75 agaun saves me from having to engage with news elsewhere


----------



## Sweet FA (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Everyone's a winner.





Spymaster said:


> Big props to the policeman who pulled the trigger on him too.





Spymaster said:


> outstanding professionalism and bravery by the police officer.





Spymaster said:


> Yes.





Spymaster said:


> Absolutely. They want martyrdom, I think we should do everything possible to ensure their rapid success. Cunts.





Spymaster said:


> Execution.


Finally reached the vinegars.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

Weirdo


----------



## Shechemite (Nov 30, 2019)

Not much has changed here then


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Nov 30, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> I have the feeling we're looking at another de Menezes case here.


I’m not sure that comment aged well. De Menezes was unarmed and not attacking anyone and wasn’t wearing a fake suicide vest, if you recall.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I’m not sure that comment aged well. De Menezes was unarmed and not attacking anyone and wasn’t wearing a fake suicide vest, if you recall.


I think Idris' concern was well placed bearing in mind the really demoralising stuff posted on here 14 years ago. I'm glad he posted that.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> I think Idris' concern was well placed bearing in mind the really demoralising stuff posted on here 14 years ago. I'm glad he posted that.






I posted that just after seeing the tweet with the shooting footage, and before knowing anything else about it.


----------



## Cid (Nov 30, 2019)

Also, why remove the context when quoting?




Idris2002 said:


> That sounds like a shot to me. How would that have been necessary? The guy was on the floor, had already been tackled by passerbys. . . maybe it'll turn out he was wearing a suicide vest, but I have the feeling we're looking at another de Menezes case here.



Which is, of course, what happened.


----------



## LDC (Nov 30, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Just wondering the timeline & what actually happened & if he died from the initial first two shots or was shot again.



In almost all cases of fatal shootings the timeline is that the shots come first, and then afterwards the person dies, sometimes after some more shots. HTH.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> But what about their human rights etc?


EXACTLY! You have no idea how pleased I am to see you beginning to espouse the socially interested attitudes on which Urban is founded!


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Nov 30, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> I posted that just after seeing the tweet with the shooting footage, and before knowing anything else about it.


I understand that, and my first thought was to hope the police hadn’t screwed up again...but sometimes they don’t.


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

Here's the poor bloke that got killed by that fucking shitslime. Just 25 years old.

The other victim was a woman who hasn't been named yet.

London Bridge attack victim named


----------



## killer b (Nov 30, 2019)

I wonder why the BBC didn't include his father's tribute - seems remiss.

"My son, Jack, who was killed in this attack, would not wish his death to be used as the pretext for more draconian sentences or for detaining people unnecessarily. 

R.I.P. Jack: you were a beautiful spirit who always took the side of the underdog."


----------



## killer b (Nov 30, 2019)

also I just saw this. awks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Nov 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wonder why the BBC didn't include his father's tribute - seems remiss.
> 
> "My son, Jack, who was killed in this attack, would not wish his death to be used as the pretext for more draconian sentences or for detaining people unnecessarily.
> 
> R.I.P. Jack: you were a beautiful spirit who always took the side of the underdog."


Wow, able to come out with that so soon after his loss. Well done, Jack's dad.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2019)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I’m not sure that comment aged well.



Much like its author (seated, right):


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wonder why the BBC didn't include his father's tribute - seems remiss.
> 
> "My son, Jack, who was killed in this attack, would not wish his death to be used as the pretext for more draconian sentences or for detaining people unnecessarily.
> 
> R.I.P. Jack: you were a beautiful spirit who always took the side of the underdog."


Much respect to that man. I can't imagine how he feels.


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)




----------



## philosophical (Nov 30, 2019)

I want to cry for the father of the man murdered.
I am a father, and for the first London Bridge incident my son worked at 1 London Bridge but wasn't directly affected, but of course was affected in a similar way to all the living and working community in the area.
Last year his office moved 300 meters from I London Bridge. 
Yesterday as the news came through i tried to contact him but his phone was out of commission, I phoned through to his office and eventually caught a quick word with him. Shortly afterwards he called me on a friends phone because his offices had been evacuated and he was going to Blackfriars as directed.
During that interlude, as his dad, I was very worried until I heard he was safe. 
The father of the victim might have been through similar worry and it has ended appallingly, it really does make me feel like weeping for the man, and for the rest of his family, and for the others affected.
This attacker, and the other ones of the Borough Market attack have been successful in being able to crank up fear, in me at least.
I can't offer any solution mind you, but whatever the details, to me those guys who took on the attacker before the police arrived acted heroically.
The whole thing is fucking sick.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 30, 2019)

killer b said:


> I wonder why the BBC didn't include his father's tribute - seems remiss.
> 
> "My son, Jack, who was killed in this attack, would not wish his death to be used as the pretext for more draconian sentences or for detaining people unnecessarily.
> 
> R.I.P. Jack: you were a beautiful spirit who always took the side of the underdog."



Shame on the BBC for not showing it 

Strength to the Guy to be a able to make a statement like that in the face of his son death

just as brave as the guy running toward the knifeman


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

So fucking sad.




Here's his Twitter feed: 

Jack Merritt (@JackmerrittJack) on Twitter


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 30, 2019)

editor said:


>



They have bear arms, we have narwhal tusks. I reckon we’d win that fight.


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

Man who took the narwahl tusk that was hanging on the walk in fishmongers  hall..was he just strolling along with it or did this all kick off inside the building am confused.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> Man who took the narwahl tusk that was hanging on the walk in fishmongers  hall..was he just strolling along with it or did this all kick off inside the building am confused.


You mean the polish chef working at Fishmongers Hall?


----------



## clicker (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> Man who took the narwahl tusk that was hanging on the walk in fishmongers  hall..was he just strolling along with it or did this all kick off inside the building am confused.


Sounds like it kicked off inside at the conference. Jack Merrit was one of the speakers. The tusk would have probably been a wall decoration.


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

I see, yep it started inside.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> Yes.


Yes. He was working at Fishmongers Hall and grabbed it on his way out after the attacker


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> Man who took the narwahl tusk that was hanging on the walk in fishmongers  hall..was he just strolling along with it or did this all kick off inside the building am confused.



 "Call Me Ishmael."
“...to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.”
― Herman Melville


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

Fishmongers hall apparently also has in its display "a dagger that at one time was popularly believed to have been used by Lord Mayor Walworth to kill Wat Tyler in 1381, and was said to have been given to the City armoury by the king.' But narwahl tusk a better choice.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> Fucks sake. Everyone who has followed this thread knows what is being shown here, but it is _incredibly _irresponsible for the Telegraph to juxtapose this image with that headline
> 
> View attachment 191383


Bloke with the knife is plain clothes plod apparently.


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Bloke with the knife is plain clothes plod apparently.



I thought that and posted so yesterday, obvious by the way he didn’t panic, he  continued warning people as he walked away and held the evidence away from himself.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Don't just copy what the internet says.

edit: at spymaster


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Don't just copy what the internet says.
> 
> edit: at spymaster


Well yeah. 

Except it's what the Chief Constable of the BTP said:



> British Transport Police (BTP) said the man seen holding the knife was a plain-clothes officer.
> 
> Chief Constable Paul Crowther, said: "The courageous actions he took when faced with the horrors of this attack are remarkable.
> 
> "He, as well as other members of the public, should be extremely proud of what they did to stop this man on London Bridge."


'Heroes' praised for confronting bridge attacker


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well yeah.
> 
> Except it's what the Chief Constable of the BTP said:
> 
> ...



If he's plain clothes plod he should have decapitated yer man with the knife.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well yeah.
> 
> Except it's what the Chief Constable of the BTP said:
> 
> ...


Fair play. That's about as 100% as you can get.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

Were there any norms at this event?


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Were there any norms at this event?


Only the victims it seems.


----------



## Idris2002 (Nov 30, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> "Call Me Ishmael."
> “...to the last I grapple with thee; from hell's heart I stab at thee; for hate's sake I spit my last breath at thee.”
> ― Herman Melville


For centuries, man has dreamed of destroying the sun.


----------



## blossie33 (Nov 30, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Bloke with the knife is plain clothes plod apparently.



Think I read he was British Transport Police.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

But, BTP doing plain clothes? Wtf. Or just being aware now that there was a pc  ITA


----------



## clicker (Nov 30, 2019)

Probably just a BTP not at work.


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 30, 2019)

Idris2002 said:


> For centuries, man has dreamed of destroying the sun.


Facts are meaningless. You can use facts to prove anything that’s even remotely true. Facts schmacts.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> But, BTP doing plain clothes? Wtf. Or just being aware now that there was a pc  ITA



BTP does have detectives, and I assume they are plain-clothes.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

clicker said:


> Probably just a BTP not at work.


The vid shows him running very def at trouble. Then he dealt with it. He doesn't need be btp.  For all you pricks out there, they genuinely are very near. You leave prison and think  it's over?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> BTP does have detectives, and I assume they are plain-clothes.


I didn't know that. Lucky to be here at this point.


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> For all you pricks out there, they genuinely are very near. You leave prison and think  it's over?


You're drunk. which is fine but you might feel a bit silly in the morning.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> You're drunk. which is fine but you might feel a bit silly in the morning.


Thanks mum.

Radio 4 prick.


----------



## agricola (Nov 30, 2019)

bimble said:


> Fishmongers hall apparently also has in its display "a dagger that at one time was popularly believed to have been used by Lord Mayor Walworth to kill Wat Tyler in 1381, and was said to have been given to the City armoury by the king.' But narwahl tusk a better choice.



They should do some form of reunion-exhibition of that and Simon Sudbury's head.


----------



## editor (Nov 30, 2019)

She is utterly despicable 
Home Secretary Priti Patel blames Labour over London Bridge terrorist release


----------



## Orang Utan (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> The vid shows him running very def at trouble. Then he dealt with it. He doesn't need be btp.  For all you pricks out there, they genuinely are very near. You leave prison and think  it's over?


aye, not surprised an ex-con would confront a nutter with knives - more likely to than another member of the public, considering what they may have faced inside.


----------



## tonysingh (Nov 30, 2019)

editor said:


> She is utterly despicable
> Home Secretary Priti Patel blames Labour over London Bridge terrorist release



You've just noticed?


----------



## Sprocket. (Nov 30, 2019)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> BTP does have detectives, and I assume they are plain-clothes.



This is true, I have in fact been detained twice by plain clothes railway bobbies in my earlier adventures.


----------



## bimble (Nov 30, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> Thanks mum.
> 
> Radio 4 prick.


Thats ok son anytime.


----------



## IC3D (Nov 30, 2019)

Regarding Patel, on reading about these sentences, 'Prisoners held indefinitely should not have to prove they are safe to be released'


> IPP prisoners must serve the minimum term of their sentence, which is the punishment part. But they are then kept inside indefinitely until they are no longer seen as a risk to the public. In this way, IPP sentences differ to fixed-term or determinate sentences.


and the description of his behavior from his brief,  London Bridge attacker had asked for help to deradicalise - lawyer


> Sharif said Khan appeared to be rehabilitated and was a model prisoner during his time in HMP Whitemoor: “He was having a go at Isis before his release. I’ve no idea what happened after his release, that is what is shocking. Maybe he was not ideologically robust enough to resist the radicalising groomers – I thought he was a reformed character.”


It seems he bullshitted his way out of prison.
I don't buy for second he wanted help deradicalizing and ended up killing someone who thought they could.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 30, 2019)

Have seen some people piling into tories on this over ending IPP. Now obviously Patel is a dick but IPP was a fucking terrible invention and it was right the tories got rid, although there are still prisoners on IPP - not sure why this fella had his sentence changed but certainly not the case that all IPP prisoners were converted to determinate sentences. Nor case that all prisoners on IPP had terror convictions or had been convicted of the 'worst' crimes. 9k people got IPP sentences, a lot for robberies.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 30, 2019)

With hindsight that letter reads like total bs. Easy to say now though. He was young when first convicted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2019)

Sprocket. said:


> This is true, I have in fact been detained twice by plain clothes railway bobbies in my earlier adventures.


If you will trainspot...


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

Just a young lad.

Absolutely tragic, can’t imagine what his family are going through.

London Bridge victim named as 25 year-old Cambridge graduate Jack Merritt


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> not sure why this fella had his sentence changed


I think it was changed on appeal.


----------



## Marty1 (Nov 30, 2019)

editor said:


> She is utterly despicable
> Home Secretary Priti Patel blames Labour over London Bridge terrorist release



Sadiq Khan is blaming the Tories, they’re both as bad as each other.

'Disgusting!' Sadiq Khan sparks backlash after blaming London Bridge attack on Tory cuts


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 30, 2019)

Express link!? No ta.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Nov 30, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sadiq Khan is blaming the Tories, they’re both as bad as each other.
> 
> 'Disgusting!' Sadiq Khan sparks backlash after blaming London Bridge attack on Tory cuts


Except Khan is right though isn't he, I dunno how anybody could think that cuts to probation, lack of funding for deradicalisation etc won't have been a contributing factor. The fellas solicitor says he was asking for specialist deradicalisation but didn't happen. How the fuck can that be divorced from a near decade of cutting spending and fuck the consequences


----------



## MrSki (Nov 30, 2019)

Chris Grayling's privatisation of the probation service was a complete failure & even the tories have decided to bring it back into public ownership before this.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 1, 2019)

Well Johnson didn't take long. Nearly 10 years of tory rule & he claims with a majority he will keep us safe.

What a cunt.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 1, 2019)

I don't give the right much more credence than these lot. The voluntary bitter dregs of humanity. Paedo Nazis who tug themselves and hail Satan whilst writing their latest bile. 'Good people on both sides' etc.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 1, 2019)

There is a good article by the Secret Barrister about Khan's early release & the political point scoring. Here



> *10 things you should know about the London Bridge attacker and “early release”*
> Posted on November 30, 2019 by thesecretbarrister
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 1, 2019)

All I can hope is that the despicable behaviour of Patel and now Johnson today will backfire on them spectacularly.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 1, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> Sadiq Khan is blaming the Tories, they’re both as bad as each other.
> 
> 'Disgusting!' Sadiq Khan sparks backlash after blaming London Bridge attack on Tory cuts



Marty dumb


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 1, 2019)

Proper Tidy said:


> Except Khan is right though isn't he, I dunno how anybody could think that cuts to probation, lack of funding for deradicalisation etc won't have been a contributing factor. The fellas solicitor says he was asking for specialist deradicalisation but didn't happen. How the fuck can that be divorced from a near decade of cutting spending and fuck the consequences



Thats not my point but rather the fact that they (politicians) are jumping in for political point scoring whilst the (dead) bodies are still warm.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 1, 2019)

Desperate, wretched stuff, bodies barely cold. The opinion polls must be really starting to scare the tories, unless they’re naturally this despicable.

All those years of soft bleeding heart Theresa May obviously wasn’t tough enough.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> If you will trainspot...



with menaces, Section 5.
(Conduct conducive to breach of the peace.)


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 1, 2019)

Jezza has piped up now.
Terrorists should 'not necessarily' serve full term, says Jeremy Corbyn — Sky News



> Jeremy Corbyn has told Sky News that convicted terrorists should "not necessarily" serve their full prison sentences automatically after Boris Johnson said violent offenders "must serve every day of their sentence, with no exceptions"


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 1, 2019)

He’s right though, how otherwise are people rewarded for changing their attitudes and behaviour, how would you reward a convict for offering helpful information to security services etc.? What other incentives can you offer them to stop them just walking out at the end of their sentence and carrying on as they were?  Remember that a lot of people jailed under terrorism offences aren’t going to be in forever, it can include relatively minor stuff, sharing propaganda/information on bomb making etc. that might only put people inside for a few years.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 1, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> He’s right though, how otherwise are people rewarded for changing their attitudes and behaviour, how would you reward a convict for offering helpful information to security services etc.? What other incentives can you offer them to stop them just walking out at the end of their sentence and carrying on as they were?


By not extending their sentences. They should absolutely serve the sentences they are awarded.


----------



## kenny g (Dec 1, 2019)

Probably best to review matters when everything has calmed down. Bad policy arises from panic.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Well Johnson didn't take long. Nearly 10 years of tory rule & he claims with a majority he will keep us safe.
> 
> What a cunt.



This is what happens when a politician knows he's got 90% of the media onside. He should be torn apart for this shameful shit, in reality it'll probably buy him three points in the polls.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2019)

kenny g said:


> Probably best to review matters when everything has calmed down. Bad policy arises from panic.


This is no time for mature reflection


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

SpookyFrank said:


> This is what happens when a politician knows he's got 90% of the media onside. He should be torn apart for this shameful shit, in reality it'll probably buy him three points in the polls.



I am not sure about that - people thought the same after Manchester and the first London Bridge attack, but such claims fly in the face of the reality that most people still live in.  They (May and him) cannot plausibly come out with rubbish like that when people know what they've done to the criminal justice system.


----------



## Cid (Dec 1, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> By not extending their sentences. They should absolutely serve the sentences they are awarded.



Same effect, different words.


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

Pretty brazen, this.  I especially like how it went out whilst he was on Marr, probably so he could blame the intern for thieving it:


----------



## Celyn (Dec 1, 2019)

Shit, he really is shameless. Very Trumpy.


----------



## A380 (Dec 1, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> But, BTP doing plain clothes? Wtf. Or just being aware now that there was a pc  ITA


They don’t wear uniforms when not at work. Well most don’t...


----------



## A380 (Dec 1, 2019)

This is probably inappropriate, but it made me laugh.



(I am a strong believer in laughing at people who think they should kill other people because they have different imaginary friends)


----------



## keybored (Dec 1, 2019)

A380 said:


> They don’t wear uniforms when not at work. Well most don’t...


Normally then described as "off duty" rather than "plain clothes" though.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 1, 2019)

It makes his behaviour on the bridge quite curious though. He looked pretty dodgy, tbh.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 1, 2019)

It feels bad to laugh about it at all, but imagine being the narwhal tusk man. He will really become a legend in a localised way - e.g. "Did I tell you about the time my great grandad went after a terrorist with a narwhal tusk?" sort of thing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 1, 2019)

butchersapron said:


> _My, what a lovely velvet glove you have on_



All the better to wank off liberals with my iron fist, my dear.


----------



## tonysingh (Dec 1, 2019)

Celyn said:


> It feels bad to laugh about it at all, but imagine being the narwhal tusk man. He will really become a legend in a localised way - e.g. "Did I tell you about the time my great grandad went after a terrorist with a narwhal tusk?" sort of thing.



He should be called Donald Tusk surely?


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

tonysingh said:


> He should be called Donald Tusk surely?



careful with puns like that, there is still one more of them left on the wall for someone to chase you with


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 1, 2019)

tonysingh said:


> He should be called Donald Tusk surely?



Fish Merchant-Ivory perhaps?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2019)

I hope he gets to keep that tusk.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 1, 2019)

Tomasz the Tusk Engine.


----------



## Celyn (Dec 1, 2019)

agricola said:


> careful with puns like that, there is still one more of them left on the wall for someone to chase you with


There might not be. They usually have only one tusk.


----------



## agricola (Dec 1, 2019)

Celyn said:


> There might not be. They usually have only one tusk.



apparently these are said appendages:


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2019)

Celyn said:


> There might not be. They usually have only one tusk.


Yeh but they have the tusks from more than one whale


----------



## Celyn (Dec 1, 2019)

Ah well. How greedy. Yeah, it would be quite nice to let the guy keep one, and the empty space on the wall would become a story on itself.


----------



## kebabking (Dec 1, 2019)

Surely the properly British thing to do would be to return the tusk  to fishmongers hall, _and _put the wankers body in a display case next to it?


----------



## LDC (Dec 1, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Surely the properly British thing to do would be to return the tusk  to fishmongers hall, _and _put the wankers body in a display case next to it?



Very badly stuffed? Surely there's a terrible taxidermy thread somewhere on here too?


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 1, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Very badly stuffed? Surely there's a terrible taxidermy thread somewhere on here too?



or turn him into fish food!


----------



## Cold Harbour (Dec 1, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It makes his behaviour on the bridge quite curious though. He looked pretty dodgy, tbh.


BTP's HQ is in the smaller Shard building, he might just have been on his way back to the office after lunch? They have a lot of plain clothes detectives, I know one who spends his days catching gropers and pickpockets on trains.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 1, 2019)

Cold Harbour said:


> I know one who spends his days catching gropers and pickpockets on trains.


Sounds like Sprocket. has met him too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2019)

Cold Harbour said:


> BTP's HQ is in the smaller Shard building.


No it isn't, it's at 25 Camden Road


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 1, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Sounds like Sprocket. has met him too.



only if he worked on Leeds or Rotherham stations.


----------



## A380 (Dec 1, 2019)




----------



## Proper Tidy (Dec 1, 2019)

I had a bloke, obviously a copper but in plain clothes, come over and ask me my name when I had just got on train from manchester piccadily to wrexham after a demo then at crewe some uniformed transport police got on and nicked me for a public order offence, nothing came of it but assume the first bloke was BTP


----------



## Cold Harbour (Dec 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> No it isn't, it's at 25 Camden Road


Ok, yes corrected - it's their London Bridge team who are based at the little Shard. Either way, hardly a surprise to hear of BTP walking across London Bridge.


----------



## Lancman (Dec 1, 2019)

A close member of my family (whom I shall call Adam for convenience) escorted a convicted murderer who was serving a life sentence to the conference on prisoner rehabilitation at Fishmongers’ Hall yesterday where the convict was due to speak. Neither was in uniform for obvious reasons. There must have been several convicts and escorts there similarly dressed. Don’t confuse “In plain clothes” with “Off duty”.

Adam was standing chatting to a woman when this maniac stabbed her in the neck. Adam immediately rendered first aid but she died soon after.

Adam’s suit was covered in blood and has been kept by the police as evidence and he’s on sick leave and having difficulty sleeping.

There is no way people should be making jokes or scoring political or personal points off events like this. They're deadly serious.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 1, 2019)

Oh fuck, Lancman, send our good wishes to 'Adam', yet another hero of the day.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2019)

The other victim was just 23

Second London Bridge victim named as Saskia Jones


----------



## brogdale (Dec 1, 2019)

editor said:


> The other victim was just 23
> 
> Second London Bridge victim named as Saskia Jones


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2019)

Lancman said:


> There is no way people should be making jokes or scoring political or personal points off events like this. They're deadly serious.



Indeed. If nothing else, turning stuff like this into a political football both raises the profile of the people responsible for theses crimes and increases the extent to which innocent victims and their loved ones are exposed to them over and over again, something which must effectively retraumatise people in many cases.

I don't think witnesses should be dragged onto national news immediately after stuff like this happens, I think they should get proper confidential support. The morbid curiosity of the public and the various ulterior motives of politicians should always take a back seat, or better still be disregarded entirely.

e2a: I'm not good at finding useful words in these circumstances but I'm sure all of us here wish your family improved fortunes and such healing as may be found.


----------



## editor (Dec 1, 2019)

The clueless conspiracy stuff being peddled by fucking morons on Facebook about this incident is really quite depressing.


----------



## blossie33 (Dec 1, 2019)

Very very sad, two young people whose lives would have made a great contribution to helping others


----------



## ricbake (Dec 1, 2019)

blossie33 said:


> Very very sad, two young people whose lives would have made a great contribution to helping others


By all accounts very clever young people who had already made a contribution in their field and probably knew their killer and had believed they had been helping him create a better future.

This whole tragic affair is so dystopian.


----------



## ricbake (Dec 1, 2019)




----------



## FiFi (Dec 1, 2019)

Lancman, my very best wishes to Adam, and your family. I hope he gets some good support to emotionally process his experiences.


----------



## Marty1 (Dec 1, 2019)

The narwhal tusk guy is to be awarded the medal of sacrifice & courage from Poland - bravo 

Can’t post link as article is from a verboten source.


----------



## LDC (Dec 1, 2019)

editor said:


> The clueless conspiracy stuff being peddled by fucking morons on Facebook about this incident is really quite depressing.



I was pretty shocked last night when a good friend (I've known for 20 years or so, smart, well read, sound politics, etc. etc.) asked me over dinner if I thought Johnson organised this.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 1, 2019)

Any claim by Johnson that this is down to Labour is pretty easily batted away by pointing out they’ve been in power for nine fucking years, so if anything was wrong with the criminal justice system they’ve had ample time and resources to fix it. Don’t expect that kind of challenge to this argument from anyone in the media that they’ll let anywhere near him though.

tbh I’ve been half expecting Corbyn to drop some clanger about how he should have been arrested rather than shot, thankfully that’s been avoided so far. Hope someone is having a word.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2019)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I was pretty shocked last night when a good friend (I've known for 20 years or so, smart, well read, sound politics, etc. etc.) asked me over dinner if I thought Johnson organised this.


I hope your reply included the words piss up and brewery


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 1, 2019)

Dogsauce said:


> Any claim by Johnson that this is down to Labour is pretty easily batted away by pointing out they’ve been in power for nine fucking years, so if anything was wrong with the criminal justice system they’ve had ample time and resources to fix it. Don’t expect that kind of challenge to this argument from anyone in the media that they’ll let anywhere near him though.
> 
> tbh I’ve been half expecting Corbyn to drop some clanger about how he should have been arrested rather than shot, thankfully that’s been avoided so far. Hope someone is having a word.




All it takes is some uber-privileged twat like Nick Ferrari to ask if it would have been preferable to nick him rather than nut him and the headline cunts will run with it. Corbyn needs to know that and not allow these private school/Oxbridge luvvies to suck him in to their bullshit.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 1, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> All it takes is some uber-privileged twat like Nick Ferrari to ask if it would have been preferable to nick him rather than nut him and the headline cunts will run with it. Corbyn needs to know that and not allow these private school/Oxbridge luvvies to suck him in to their bullshit.



Yeah, but he just walks into stuff like this all the time, a bit tone deaf on such matters. If I was some ringpiece interviewer wanting to trap him I reckon ‘are you pleased he is dead?’ would be a good starter for making trouble.


----------



## A380 (Dec 1, 2019)

Corbyn should start carrying a narwhal tusk with him when campaigning or being interviewed on television. He shouldn't refer to it in any way, just carry it...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 2, 2019)




----------



## Ming (Dec 2, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> View attachment 191618


Amazing isn’t it? The guy was a criminal justice reformer dedicated to rehabilitation rather than vengeance. And his father explicitly states he doesn’t want his son’s death used for politics. And de Pfeffel does exactly the opposite. And shame on Marr for not hauling him over the coals for it.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.


Oh fuck off. Why is Johnson saying this now, and not last week or last month or ten years ago? Cos Jack Merritt and his colleague were killed, that's why. What those killed and their families think is hugely relevant to the blatant, naked political use their deaths are being put to merely hours after the event. Their pictures are on the front pages of newspapers they detested saying things they detested. Fucking sick cunts, the lot of them.

And as for Jack Merritt's opinion on how jihadis should be treated? Well he chose to work with them. His opinion is worth a fuck ton more than the opinions of most other people. And it and his memory are being shat on by every cunt now trying to cash in on his death.


----------



## killer b (Dec 2, 2019)

His opinion that his sons death not be used for propaganda purposes by right wing newspapers seems a reasonable one tbf


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.



Think you're wrong on this one.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 2, 2019)

And remember what Johnson said today. 'Give me a majority and I will keep you safe'. Jack's  dad is being really fucking courageous in his responses to this cuntishness. And where are those on the newspaper front pages? Nowhere to be seen.


----------



## Sue (Dec 2, 2019)

killer b said:


> His opinion that his sons death not be used for propaganda purposes by right wing newspapers seems a reasonable one tbf


...and that they did so anyway is absolutely despicable. (If not surprising.)


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh fuck off. Why is Johnson saying this now, and not last week or last month or ten years ago? Cos Jack Merritt and his colleague were killed, that's why. What those killed and their families think is hugely relevant to the blatant, naked political use their deaths are being put to merely hours after the event. Their pictures are on the front pages of newspapers they detested saying things they detested. Fucking sick cunts, the lot of them.
> 
> And as for Jack Merritt's opinion on how jihadis should be treated? Well he chose to work with them. His opinion is worth a fuck ton more than the opinions of most other people. And it and his memory are being shat on by every cunt now trying to cash in on his death.


Lol, fuck off yourself. Ming’s suggestion was that Merritt’s thoughts should trump other’s. There’s no reason that should be the case. Just because you agree with him doesn’t make him right.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Lol, fuck off yourself. Ming’s suggestion was that Merritt’s thoughts should trump other’s. There’s no reason that should be the case. Just because you agree with him doesn’t make him right.


Rather than doubling down on your mistake, why not try considering whether you might have got this totally wrong?

Ming said this



> And his father explicitly states he doesn’t want his son’s death used for politics. And de Pfeffel does exactly the opposite. And shame on Marr for not hauling him over the coals for it.



not whatever it is in your head that you think Ming said.


----------



## Ming (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Lol, fuck off yourself. Ming’s suggestion was that Merritt’s thoughts should trump other’s. There’s no reason that should be the case. Just because you agree with him doesn’t make him right.


My dinner’s just arrived. But i will respond.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rather than doubling down on your mistake, why not try considering whether you might have got this totally wrong?
> 
> Ming said this
> 
> ...


Merritt also Tweeted that his son wouldn’t want his death to be used as a pretext for more draconian sentencing. It’s part of the same thing and it’s wrong. Just because the lad had that view and it’s yours and no doubt many others on here, doesn’t make it right. It’s just another view and the views of victims and their families on the sentencing of attackers are the last that should be considered. As far as it being used for propaganda is concerned, that’s unfortunate but absolutely inevitable in the run up to a GE. Its a major concern for many people and those people will be voting.


----------



## killer b (Dec 2, 2019)

You fucked it here spy lad. Have some humility.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Don’t be silly


----------



## Ming (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.


I’m more focused on how de Pfeffel’s using the situation for political purposes and ignoring an explicit request from a grieving father.
 Opinions? Yeah, like arseholes right? Nope. Opinions differ in quality depending on the expertise of the person proffering it. And also the timing and context. Which in this case, in de Pfeffel’s case responding to the tragedy, is unconscionable.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> I’m more focused on how de Pfeffel’s using the situation for political purposes and ignoring an explicit request from a grieving father.


Well again, as distasteful as it seems, one man’s grief isn’t going to have a huge effect on electioneering in the run up to one of the biggest GEs for a generation. This is just going to fall along party lines. The right are going to use the events to look hard on jihadis and the left are going to use the right’s response to call them cold-hearted cunts because there’s bugger all that anyone wants to hear from lefties on crime and punishment at the moment.


----------



## Ming (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well again, as distasteful as it seems, one man’s grief isn’t going to have a huge effect on electioneering in the run up to one of the biggest GEs for a generation. This is just going to fall along party lines. The right are going to use the events to look hard on jihadis and the left are going to use the right’s response to call them cold-hearted cunts because there’s bugger all else that anyone wants to hear from lefties on crime and punishment at the moment.


Disagree on the effect politically. And it's not about having a huge effect. It's about having a 'nudge'/marginal effect in key constituencies. As the Brexit vote proved. This is going to be a close election. Even 'Dom' has said that out loud. This repulsive dog whistle messaging that de Pfeffel is using unfortunately works. Which of course is why he's doing it.


----------



## Ming (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Merritt also Tweeted that his son wouldn’t want his death to be used as a pretext for more draconian sentencing. It’s part of the same thing and it’s wrong. Just because the lad had that view, and it’s yours and no doubt many others on here, doesn’t make it right. It’s just another view and the views of victims and their families on the sentencing of attackers are the last that should be considered. As far as it being used for propaganda is concerned, that’s unfortunate but absolutely inevitable in the run up to a GE. Its a major concern for many people and those people will be voting.


ETA: misinterpreted post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And remember what Johnson said today. 'Give me a majority and I will keep you safe'. Jack's  dad is being really fucking courageous in his responses to this cuntishness. And where are those on the newspaper front pages? Nowhere to be seen.


You cannot hope to bribe or twist
(thank God) the British journalist
But seeing what they do
Unbribed there's no occasion to


----------



## MrSki (Dec 2, 2019)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

MrSki said:


>


just curious why he's leaving things at the south end of the bridge when the incident took place at the north end.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> just curious why he's leaving things at the south end of the bridge when the incident took place at the north end.


Is the north end still cordoned off?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

MrSki said:


> Is the north end still cordoned off?


no


----------



## MrSki (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> no


Well it was when Johnson started using it for campaigning purposes & the cartoon was drawn.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Ming said:


> And it's not about having a huge effect. It's about having a 'nudge'/marginal effect in key constituencies.


Do you honestly think that people are going to stop voting tory because of this? No way. The only people that are going to strongly condemn Johnson et al for this stuff are people that wouldn't have voted for them anyway. I'd be surprised if there weren't more undecided voters who want to see a strong reaction to this. It's not going to come from Corbyn so they'll vote for someone else, and Labour have to get people to vote for them that didn't the last time or they'll lose again.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 2, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> just curious why he's leaving things at the south end of the bridge when the incident took place at the north end.





That’s where the flowers and stuff are being left / chaplains stationed there in hi viz as well


----------



## ginger_syn (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.


As most of us are human with feeling it will have more value though, as well as the fact its actually a sensible view.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

ginger_syn said:


> As most of us are human with feeling it will have more value though, as well as the fact its actually a sensible view.


Well you’re simple stating as fact what’s only your opinion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> As tragic as his loss is, Mr Merritt’s opinion of how jihadis should be treated is of no greater value than anyone else’s.


no death should be used for political gain by the likes of boris johnson


----------



## MrSki (Dec 2, 2019)

This account from the Chief Exec. of Fishmonger's Hall really does show what a bloody hero Lukasz & the others were.


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2019)

FB appears to be slowly filling up with fuckwits dribbling out fuckwitted garbage about 'black ops' and other fucking fuckwit fuckitty fuckshit. 

This guy nails it:


----------



## editor (Dec 2, 2019)

MrSki said:


> This account from the Chief Exec. of Fishmonger's Hall really does show what a bloody hero Lukasz & the others were.



That is a brilliant account of some absolutely amazing people.

I rarely use the word 'hero' but it's clear that there were plenty of those that day.


----------



## elbows (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> It’s just another view and the views of victims and their families on the sentencing of attackers are the last that should be considered.



Sounds like a great way to have a justice system that doesnt end up feeling like justice to anybody.

The views of victims and those that were close to them are important. Obviously systems of justice need to take account of other views and principals too, and the outcome should not be dictated purely by the degree to which those people feel forgiveness or the opposite, or their other beliefs on how things should be done.

But you can do that balancing act and still give victims a real sense of being listened to and included in the process rather than continuing their feeling of complete loss of control over the situation and its outcomes which no doubt began when their loved ones were snatched away from them without warning.

The absolute minimum the relatives of victims deserve is to be able to make their heartfelt pleas about what the victims stood for. Often they will make them knowing very well that it wont make much difference, the usual forces will carry on using things as they see fit.


----------



## killer b (Dec 2, 2019)

Jack Merritt's dad has written a short piece for the graun. seems to have the bit between his teeth. Good on him.
'Jack would be livid his death has been used to further an agenda of hate' | Dave Merritt


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 2, 2019)

Seems to be a manic street preacher with a megaphone every few metres on the east side of London Bridge today. Just what every one needs - being told we are going to hell. Twats.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 2, 2019)

not-bono-ever said:


> Seems to be a manic street preacher with a megaphone every few metres on the east side of London Bridge today. Just what every one needs - being told we are going to hell. Twats.



Manic street preachers and bridges have a sad history.


----------



## Des Kinvig (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> ...It’s just another view and the views of victims and their families on the sentencing of attackers are the last that should be considered...



This may be your opinion, but it’s simply a matter of fact that in england and wales victim’s views are taken into account in the sentencing of convicts.

Specifically in the case of murder, the views of a victim’s family are taken into account when a judge assesses the impact of the offence as an aggravating or mitigating factor.

See this document.

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/FINAL-Murder-sentencing-leaflet-for-web1.pdf



> What about the impact of the crime?
> In any case resulting in a death the impact of the offence will, of course, be assessed as very serious. If the victim’s family has chosen to make a victim personal statement the judge will use the information it contains when assessing the impact of the crime.


----------



## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Des Kinvig said:


> This may be your opinion, but it’s simply a matter of fact that in england and wales victim’s views are taken into account in the sentencing of convicts.
> 
> Specifically in the case of murder, the views of a victim’s family are taken into account when a judge assesses the impact of the offence as an aggravating or mitigating factor.
> 
> ...


Victim impact statements are completely different to victims views on sentencing or justice being factored into cases. With a VIS a judge (rightly) takes into account the harm caused by the criminal on the people involved and considers it when assessing the severity of the sentence. That's very different from a victim or their family saying "this chap shouldn't get life" or "this guy should hang".


----------



## Des Kinvig (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Victim impact statements are completely different to victims views on sentencing or justice being factored into cases. With a VIS a judge (rightly) takes into account the harm caused by the criminal on the people involved and considers it when assessing the severity of the sentence. That's very different from a victim or their family saying "this chap shouldn't get life" or "this guy should hang".



It’s not very different at all. Obviously the victim’s family aren’t deciding on the sentence, but by making a victim personal statement their views add to the judge’s decision making when weighing up the impact of the crime as a mitigating or aggravating factor.

You said that the views of victims and their families should be the last that should be considered, which as a statement of opinion is fine, but is, in fact, not the case at all.


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## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Des Kinvig said:


> You said that the views of victims and their families should be the last that should be considered ...


No I didn't. I was extremely specific.



> ... and the views of victims and their families *on the sentencing of attackers* are the last that should be considered


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## Des Kinvig (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> No I didn't. I was extremely specific.



I know what you typed, I read it and quoted it. Apologies for paraphrasing.

But on victims and their families views being taken into account in the sentencing of attackers, I will direct you back to the link to the sentencing council that confirms that yes, they are taken into account in this respect.


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## Spymaster (Dec 2, 2019)

Des Kinvig said:


> I know what you typed, I read it and quoted it. Apologies for paraphrasing.
> 
> But on victims and their families views being taken into account in the sentencing of attackers, I will direct you back to the link to the sentencing council that confirms that yes, they are taken into account in this respect.


Believe it or not I'm very familiar with the function of victim impact statements and even the link that you quoted. There is nothing in it that contradicts anything that I've posted. You are either misunderstanding it, or me.


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## Des Kinvig (Dec 2, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Believe it or not I'm very familiar with the function of victim impact statements and even the link that you quoted. There is nothing in it that contradicts anything that I've posted. You are either misunderstanding it, or me.



I may have misunderstood you. 

But I don’t think so, as reading your post again I still take it the same way I did the first time.


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## existentialist (Dec 2, 2019)

Des Kinvig said:


> I know what you typed, I read it and quoted it. Apologies for paraphrasing.
> 
> But on victims and their families views being taken into account in the sentencing of attackers, I will direct you back to the link to the sentencing council that confirms that yes, they are taken into account in this respect.


I don't actually agree with Spymaster's views on criminal justice, but I agree with him on this - you're trying to compare apples with oranges here...


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## ginger_syn (Dec 3, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Well you’re simple stating as fact what’s only your opinion.





Spymaster said:


> Well you’re simple stating as fact what’s only your opinion.


No its a sensible view


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## Spymaster (Dec 3, 2019)

ginger_syn said:


> No its a sensible view


You’re doing it again.


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## ginger_syn (Dec 3, 2019)

Yes, because its sensible


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## mx wcfc (Dec 3, 2019)

ckoftheYear
Quote Tweet







General Godfrey Bloom QC

@goddersbloom
· 2 Dec
As I understand it your son died because he believed early release for jihadists was justified because they could be rehabilitated Society is demanding these releases stop immediately A very pragmatic view, nothing vile about it. Grieve silently is my advice 
9:05 am · 3 Dec 2019·Twitter Web App

I have no idea who this despicable pile of shit is, but I'm not sure I'd let him get as far as South Georgia.


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## Spymaster (Dec 3, 2019)

mx wcfc said:


> ckoftheYear
> Quote Tweet
> 
> 
> ...



He's a kipper.

According to this he is neither a General nor a barrister.


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## existentialist (Dec 3, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> He's a kipper.
> 
> According to this he is neither a General nor a barrister.


One thing on which I feel we can be completely united is that he is quite self-evidently a cunt.


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## Sprocket. (Dec 3, 2019)

A total bellend, you are fortunate not to have witnessed this twat on your regional news programme.


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## Marty1 (Dec 3, 2019)

I understand the calls for bad taste but surely Boris doing a ‘blitz’ of freed Jihadis can only be generally welcomed by the public based on current events?


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## Buckaroo (Dec 3, 2019)

Think he was the women get back in the kitchen fella. Grieve silently. Never tell anyone how to grieve you cunt.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 3, 2019)

Marty1 said:


> I understand the calls for bad taste but surely Boris doing a ‘blitz’ of freed Jihadis can only be generally welcomed by the public based on current events?



Give it a rest mate or do it somewhere else. Not good.


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## mx wcfc (Dec 3, 2019)

Buckaroo said:


> Think he was the women get back in the kitchen fella. Grieve silently. Never tell anyone how to grieve you cunt.


I saw his stuff on twatter and flew into a rage.  But yes, I remember godfrey bloom now.  

still a heartless prick, even if I did call him tory scum on twitter!


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## shaman75 (Dec 5, 2019)

I noticed reports saying the attacker died from multiple shots to the torso and chest.  Found this a bit confusing, as I thought he was wearing a suicide vest.  Although this was fake, I had presumed it was what gave police the authority to shoot to kill.  If so, why did they shoot him up where the 'explosive' device was located?  I recall that, during the Menezes fiasco, it became apparent that the approved policy was to shoot the suspect in the head to disable them before they could detonate and avoid setting off the explosives by shooting it with bullets.


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## killer b (Dec 5, 2019)

shaman75 said:


> I noticed reports saying the attacker died from multiple shots to the torso and chest.  Found this a bit confusing, as I thought he was wearing a suicide vest.  Although this was fake, I had presumed it was what gave police the authority to shoot to kill.  If so, why did they shoot him up where the 'explosive' device was located?  I recall that, during the Menezes fiasco, it became apparent that the approved policy was to shoot the suspect in the head to disable them before they could detonate and avoid setting off the explosives by shooting it with bullets.


What do you think this means?


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## shaman75 (Dec 5, 2019)

killer b said:


> What do you think this means?



I'm a little concerned that there could be a training issue with City of London to be brutally honest.  Shooting an explosive device with loads of members of the public around doesn't seem like a good idea to me.  But I have absolutely no experience of firearms training or bomb disposal.

If they had been trained to avoid the vest area and decided it was a fake vest, I suppose that would lead to questions about their authority to kill.


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## kebabking (Dec 5, 2019)

shaman75 said:


> I'm a little concerned that there could be a training issue with City of London to be brutally honest.  Shooting an explosive device with loads of members of the public around doesn't seem like a good idea to me.  But I have absolutely no experience of firearms training or bomb disposal.
> 
> If they had been trained to avoid the vest area and decided it was a fake vest, I suppose that would lead to questions about their authority to kill.



Shots, multiple, to the head are the _preferred _method of neutralising the ability of a suspected suicide bomber to detonate their explosives because a) it produces a more immediate result, and b) you won't set off the bomb by accident if you don't shoot it, however a) head shots are _relatively _difficult because the head is quite small and it moves around a lot, and b) while there certainly is _a _risk of uncommanded detonation if you shoot the bomb, that risk is rather less than the movies suggest, and very much less than the chances of a _commanded _detonation because the target isn't incapacitated quickly enough.

He wasn't shot in the torso because City of London FO's are poorly trained, he was shot in the torso because CofL FO's are trained to take the best shots possible in the circumstances that they face. It's not a situation with good shots and bad shots - unless they miss, or shot him in the foot - it's a situation of all options carrying risks, and of choosing the option that mitigates against the worst risks.


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## 2hats (Dec 5, 2019)

shaman75 said:


> I noticed reports saying the attacker died from multiple shots to the torso and chest.


Are those the autopsy report or articles in the media?

From the limited information currently publicly available, ie images at the time, the presentation geometry of the suspect to the FO was, very roughly, head first longitudinal, slightly off axis, rapidly getting up from a partly prone through right lateral recumbent position. Really not that surprising if any rounds entered the upper torso in such circumstances.


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## shaman75 (Dec 5, 2019)

2hats said:


> Are those the autopsy report or articles in the media?
> 
> From the limited information currently publicly available, ie images at the time, the presentation geometry of the suspect to the FO was, very roughly, head first longitudinal, slightly off axis, rapidly getting up from a partly prone through right lateral recumbent position. Really not that surprising if any rounds entered the upper torso in such circumstances.



Media reports from the inquest.  The pathologist "determined Khan’s cause of death to be “shock and haemorrhage from the multiple gunshots to the chest and abdomen”."

London Bridge attack victims died after being stabbed in chest – inquest


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## 2hats (Dec 5, 2019)

shaman75 said:


> Media reports from the inquest.


So not an autopsy report then.


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## shaman75 (Dec 5, 2019)

2hats said:


> So not an autopsy report then.



Indeed.  What the media reported the pathologist said at the inquest.  Definitely not an autopsy report or a direct report from the inquest.  Although not an anonymous source either.  So somewhere in between doubtful and certain.  I think they call it second hand information.


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## existentialist (Dec 5, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Shots, multiple, to the head are the _preferred _method of neutralising the ability of a suspected suicide bomber to detonate their explosives because a) it produces a more immediate result, and b) you won't set off the bomb by accident if you don't shoot it, however a) head shots are _relatively _difficult because the head is quite small and it moves around a lot, and b) while there certainly is _a _risk of uncommanded detonation if you shoot the bomb, that risk is rather less than the movies suggest, and very much less than the chances of a _commanded _detonation because the target isn't incapacitated quickly enough.
> 
> He wasn't shot in the torso because City of London FO's are poorly trained, he was shot in the torso because CofL FO's are trained to take the best shots possible in the circumstances that they face. It's not a situation with good shots and bad shots - unless they miss, or shot him in the foot - it's a situation of all options carrying risks, and of choosing the option that mitigates against the worst risks.


And we have the luxury of second-guessing a life-or-death (literally) decision taken in seconds, if not fractions of a second.


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## Teaboy (Dec 5, 2019)

I'm currently at Borough Market.  Seems quite quiet for a Thursday lunchtime just before Christmas.  I feel for the traders as it does seem to be coincidence that this latest crap happened near them again.


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## Mation (Dec 7, 2019)

This is worth reading: 300 seconds at London Bridge

Despite the title and the use of graphics, it's not particularly sensationalist and fills some gaps.


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## Cid (Dec 7, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Shots, multiple, to the head are the _preferred _method of neutralising the ability of a suspected suicide bomber to detonate their explosives because a) it produces a more immediate result, and b) you won't set off the bomb by accident if you don't shoot it, however a) head shots are _relatively _difficult because the head is quite small and it moves around a lot, and b) while there certainly is _a _risk of uncommanded detonation if you shoot the bomb, that risk is rather less than the movies suggest, and very much less than the chances of a _commanded _detonation because the target isn't incapacitated quickly enough.
> 
> He wasn't shot in the torso because City of London FO's are poorly trained, he was shot in the torso because CofL FO's are trained to take the best shots possible in the circumstances that they face. It's not a situation with good shots and bad shots - unless they miss, or shot him in the foot - it's a situation of all options carrying risks, and of choosing the option that mitigates against the worst risks.



And, of course, missing the target right in the middle of London, with a bunch of emergency services and civilians nearby, is a particularly bad idea.


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## platinumsage (Jun 1, 2021)

Cid said:


> And, of course, missing the target right in the middle of London, with a bunch of emergency services and civilians nearby, is a particularly bad idea.



Pretty sure rifle shots would go straight through him, so it's what's behind that matters, not whether the shots miss.

Anyway, shot twice and then shot lots more times:









						Fishmongers' Hall: Terrorist shot at 20 times on London Bridge
					

Usman Khan fatally stabbed two Cambridge graduates and injured two others before being shot by police.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## A380 (Jun 1, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Pretty sure rifle shots would go straight through him, so it's what's behind that matters, not whether the shots miss.
> 
> Anyway, shot twice and then shot lots more times:
> 
> ...


Police use soft rounds from the G36, to prevent in most cases, the rounds going through the person being shot unlike with the rounds the army tend to use. It’s almost like someone thought about it.
Also, he didn’t kill anymore people after being shot, so shot enough times.

And still can’t give enough praise to the four members of the public including two ex-cons who took him on with improvised weapons.


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## Spymaster (Jun 1, 2021)

A380 said:


> Also, he didn’t kill anymore people after being shot, so shot enough times.



I can't think of many situations where shooting a bloke 20 times wouldn't be enough


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## CNT36 (Jun 1, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Pretty sure rifle shots would go straight through him, so it's what's behind that matters, not whether the shots miss.
> 
> Anyway, shot twice and then shot lots more times:
> 
> ...


It's traditional here to make clear if you're bumping an old thread especially if you're making a habit of it.


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## MrSki (Jun 1, 2021)

CNT36 said:


> It's traditional here to make clear if you're bumping an old thread especially if you're making a habit of it.


In this case it is not that old a thread & would seem stupid to start a new one. 

I agree otherwise.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

A380 said:


> Police use soft rounds from the G36, to prevent in most cases, the rounds going through the person being shot unlike with the rounds the army tend to use. It’s almost like someone thought about it.
> Also, he didn’t kill anymore people after being shot, so shot enough times.
> 
> And still can’t give enough praise to the four members of the public including two ex-cons who took him on with improvised weapons.



I‘m not convinced they have thought about it enough









						Fishmongers' Hall: Firearms officer was surprised Usman Khan survived first shots
					

Usman Khan was shot multiple times on London Bridge after being chased from Fishmongers' Hall.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




You can’t say he was shot enough times due to the fact he didn’t kill any more people - if his suicide vest had been real then the police may well have had to think a lot more about how they shoot suicide bombers. If they’re incapable of shooting the brain stem at such close range with rifles when the subject is motionless on the ground, perhaps they should be given shotguns.


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I‘m not convinced they have thought about it enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


  Genuine question. Have you ever been in a military fire fight or a police firearms op? Or trained to do so?


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## Artaxerxes (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I‘m not convinced they have thought about it enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...



People are hard to kill, news at 11.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

A380 said:


> Genuine question. Have you ever been in a military fire fight or a police firearms op? Or trained to do so?



No. Have you ever shot a suicide bomber to death? Genuine question.


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2021)

. Deleted as probably too graphic an anecdote for here.


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> No. Have you ever shot a suicide bomber to death? Genuine question.


Nope. That was luck though. Practiced for it lots.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I‘m not convinced they have thought about it enough
> 
> 
> 
> ...


yeh. perhaps you ought to engage brain before posting. unless you want the police to shoot more people than they do at present. here's a thought: what happens to the pellets from a shotgun which don't hit the intended target? there's a reason people generally aim at the body or head and not the brain stem and that's because it's easier to hit. think back to jean-charles de menezes, who was held down as he was murdered, with iirc eight shots fired from pistols, a couple of which missed. maybe you think you can do better from your armchair. i think it's a mercy to the public of the city that you'll never be given the chance to demonstrate your prowess with the firearms.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. perhaps you ought to engage brain before posting. unless you want the police to shoot more people than they do at present. here's a thought: what happens to the pellets from a shotgun which don't hit the intended target? there's a reason people generally aim at the body or head and not the brain stem and that's because it's easier to hit. think back to jean-charles de menezes, who was held down as he was murdered, with iirc eight shots fired from pistols, a couple of which missed. maybe you think you can do better from your armchair. i think it's a mercy to the public of the city that you'll never be given the chance to demonstrate your prowess with the firearms.



Shotgun use is widespread amongst law enforcement in the US for a reason. Sure there are advantages and disadvantages to most types of firearm but the contention that it was perfectly fine for the police to have to use 20 shots is a bit surprising.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Shotgun use is widespread amongst law enforcement in the US for a reason. Sure there are advantages and disadvantages to most types of firearm but the contention that it was perfectly fine for the police to have to use 20 shots is a bit surprising.











						Riot shotgun - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

A380 said:


> Nope. That was luck though. Practiced for it lots.



Well I don't know where you got your training but the training the police have in this country must be pretty shit if they can think they had shot a suicide bomber dead and he then sits up and touches his forehead 18 minutes later.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 271836
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, good for noob cops to be able to actually shoot someone dead while standing over them.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes, good for noob cops to be able to actually shoot someone dead while standing over them.


do you know, i can't think offhand of an occurrence of a suicide bombing in the united states. so i don't know that they'd have some 'operation kratos' procedure involving the use of a shotgun. certainly nothing obvious pops up on the national criminal justice reference service database. there is of course the 2005 university of oklahoma bombing. but that's basically it.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> do you know, i can't think offhand of an occurrence of a suicide bombing in the united states. so i don't know that they'd have some 'operation kratos' procedure involving the use of a shotgun. certainly nothing obvious pops up on the national criminal justice reference service database. there is of course the 2005 university of oklahoma bombing. but that's basically it.



Plenty cases of people downed by police fire who then go on to use a weapon when presumed dead or incapacitated though, perhaps you could start with all of those from your armchair.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Plenty cases of people downed by police fire who then go on to use a weapon when presumed dead or incapacitated though, perhaps you could start with all of those from your armchair.


sticking to the topic tho your tangent does sound alluring, you have fuck all with which to support your shotgun suggestion of 661


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## Chilli.s (Jun 4, 2021)

I hope those first few shots reeeely hurt


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Well I don't know where you got your training but the training the police have in this country must be pretty shit if they can think they had shot a suicide bomber dead and he then sits up and touches his forehead 18 minutes later.


I’d love to live in your world. I’m not being insulting, I would genuinely love to live in a world as you imagine it to be.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Shotgun use is widespread amongst law enforcement in the US for a reason.


Is it because they're fucking stupid?


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

A380 said:


> I’d love to live in your world. I’m not being insulting, I would genuinely love to live in a world as you imagine it to be.



What kind of world do you think that is? One where our elite cops are half as competent at killing someone as the average US officer?


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## Pickman's model (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> What kind of world do you think that is? One where our elite cops are half as competent at killing someone as the average US officer?


speaking of being halfway competent you seem to have muddled stuff up. there was no 18 minute gap.


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## A380 (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> What kind of world do you think that is? One where our elite cops are half as competent at killing someone as the average US officer?


One where anything involving life death and firearms and knives  is cut and dried.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

A380 said:


> One where anything involving life death and firearms and knives  is cut and dried.



My point is it's the highly trained police officers who appear to be in that world, as the inquest is uncovering.

"The officer, who shot Khan four times, told the inquest: 'All I could think was: Why aren't you dead?'"


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> My point is it's the highly trained police officers who appear to be in that world, as the inquest is uncovering.
> 
> "The officer, who shot Khan four times, told the inquest: 'All I could think was: Why aren't you dead?'"


Obviously hadn't shot him enough times.
This may come as a shock, so I hope you're sitting down... People don't die as easily in real life as they do on TV, and cars tend to not explode when shot at.


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## platinumsage (Jun 4, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Obviously hadn't shot him enough times.
> This may come as a shock, so I hope you're sitting down... People don't die as easily in real life as they do on TV, and cars tend to not explode when shot at.



Exactly, I know that very well, which is why I am querying why the police assumed he was dead after two shots, and why they were so surprised when it took a lot more shots to kill him. And I'm also querying the training and techniques that led them to be in that position of ignorance and failure. 

Also surprised that Urbanites seem very pro-police and complementary of their firearms abilities all of a sudden.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 4, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Exactly, I know that very well, which is why am querying why the police assumed he was dead after two shots, and why they were so surprised when it took a lot more shots to kill him. And I'm also querying the training and techniques that led them to be in that position of ignorance and failure.
> 
> Also surprised that Urbanites seem very pro-police and complementary of their firearms abilities all of a sudden.


Maybe the cop in question had never killed anybody before? He'll certainly know to unload the full clip next time.


----------

