# Theresa May seeks general election for 8th June



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Sky news is reporting that May is make a major announcement at 11.15am, they are speculating it may be to call a general election or that she may stand down, Sky has a sense of the dramatic, we will see at that time.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Btw, Corbyn has agreed to facilate a GE, what is he playing at?, Labour will be decimated at this time, they are now developing excellent policy, but the public isn't listening.


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## Dan U (Apr 18, 2017)

Replacing Wenger


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Btw, Corbyn has agreed to facilate a GE, what is he playing at?, Labour will be decimated at this time, they are now developing excellent policy, but the public isn't listening.



well it would be one way to dump a lot of plp enemies onto ze dole queue


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

May to be new presenter of Top gear along with a resurrected and chastened Clarkson. No role for Hammond


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## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2017)

Maybe Brenda has died?


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

it would be hilarious if she is stepping down. Triggered article 50 then fucked off leaving it all for someone else to deal with


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 18, 2017)

The Spice Girls are reforming for a Wembley gig.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Btw, Corbyn has agreed to facilate a GE, what is he playing at?, Labour will be decimated at this time, they are now developing excellent policy, but the public isn't listening.


What do you mean Corbybn has agreed to facilitate a GE?


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

Brexit doesn't mean 'brexit' and she was fucking with us for the lols.


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## Magnus McGinty (Apr 18, 2017)

Is there a link for this announcement about an announcement?


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Maybe Brenda has died?



Doubt that'd stay quiet like whatever this is seems to be


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Is there a link for this announcement about an announcement?



One from the beeb here: Speculation rife over PM statement at Number 10 - BBC News

I hope its not an election I really can't be fucked with all that.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

Dan U said:


> Replacing Wenger



Wexit means 'wexit'. No upstairs role for Arsene.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> What do you mean Corbybn has agreed to facilitate a GE?




Imagine it would be:



> The Fixed-Term Parliaments Act sets the general election date as the first Thursday in May every five years, meaning 2020 is the next expected contest.
> 
> But Mrs May could call an early election if two-thirds of MPs in the Commons vote for it and Jeremy Corbyn has previously indicated Labour would support such a move.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> One from the beeb here: Speculation rife over PM statement at Number 10 - BBC News
> 
> I hope its not an election I really can't be fucked with all that.


it would be a massively shit one. The lib dems would probably campaign on a love the eu ticket. wankers in battlebuses


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## hot air baboon (Apr 18, 2017)

finally...UFO disclosure


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## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't think I could cope with the bleakness of a GE. The fucking overwhelming inept fucking awfulness of it all. 


Please let the Queen be dead.


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Now that we have left the EU we are entering a formal alliance with the Islamic State


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> finally...UFO disclosure


Lunarstation


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Now that we have left the EU we are entering a formal alliance with the Islamic State



Some people just see problems but I see opportunities. Let the moaners moan but when we are rid of the EU we can make friends with who we like.


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

Life on Mars discovered but questions remain as to whether there is life in Peckham


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

perhaps May will announce that she has completed Zelda: Breath of the Wild


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## 19force8 (Apr 18, 2017)

Martial law?

I'm heading for the coast, just in case.


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Some people just see problems but I see opportunities. Let the moaners moan but when we are rid of the EU we can make friends with who we like.



Someone has to sell them weapons it might as well be us, they can provide us with great intelligence, better that bombs go off in Irbil than London etc


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

May: Louise Mensch is right and everyone but me and her is a Russian psyop


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## fishfinger (Apr 18, 2017)

Apparently, they're naming next month after her.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Life on Mars discovered but questions remain as to whether there is life in Peckham


It's a god awful small affair.

I think an election round your way is most likely, though I can't see why she would call one now. . .


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

From the graunid live feed



> Downing Street have had almost an hour now to discourage journalists from speculating about an early election. They are not doing that, which increases the chances that it will be an election announcement.



what a fucking awful newspaper


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

She's taken a call from Erdoğan and decided we're going to have another referendum.


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Only 30 mins till the announcement of Queen Elizabeth II's marriage to Abu-Bakr al-Baghdadi to solidify the alliance


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Imagine it would be:


I don't mean how would it work - i mean where/how has treelover got the information that corbyn has agreed to facilitate an early GE right now. In fact, where has he done it in the past? What i _have _seen him say is that he would support a vote on the early dissolution of parliament - i.,e the house would either have to vote 2/3 for an early election, or the govt lose a no confidence vote and no other govt was able to be formed within two weeks which is then followed by a dissolution vote. I.e he's left his options open. It's a little bit of parliamentary trickery that i noticed the last time early elections became a topic.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Life on Mars discovered but questions remain as to whether there is life in Peckham



She's got a record by Billy Joel.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

If Corbyn goes, the new LP leader must hit the ground running, don't let the Tories define him/her in the first few months, go on the attack and stay there.


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

Apology from the godless communistic manufacturers of those eggs?


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Just for once it would be nice if it was something good.  You know, something that would make the country better and people happy. Ha.


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

FWIW...


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

Corbyn should tell her that he would support a GE and then when the vote comes Labour vote against giving the reason that it was a bit of a hoot.


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## Yossarian (Apr 18, 2017)

Britain signing up to NAFTA.


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

It will not be good news


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Easter weekends are so fucking great we're going to have one every month?


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## Celyn (Apr 18, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> finally...UFO disclosure


And Bonnybridge will be world-famous!


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> It will not be good news



It never is.


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

Some Meeja tweeting that lectern does not carry Downing St. sign...party political, then?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> If Corbyn goes, the new LP leader must hit the ground running, don't let the Tories define him/her in the first few months, go on the attack and stay there.


I think they'll just hit the ground and stay there


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## Ungrateful (Apr 18, 2017)

Lot of fuss to announce Harry Redknapp as the next Birmingham City manager - just to cock-a-snook at her (alleged) pigskull-fucking predecessor's (alleged) support for their rivals.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> If Corbyn goes, the new LP leader must hit the ground running, don't let the Tories define him/her in the first few months, go on the attack and stay there.


This isn't the thread for Corbyn's time's up


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## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

Given my own less than stellar record of political predictions, I'm keeping my digits to myself.

(Ooeer missus etc..)


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## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

i reckon she'll resign.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Sky news is reporting that May is make a major announcement at 11.15am, they are speculating it may be to call a general election or that she may stand down, Sky has a sense of the dramatic, we will see at that time.


May to come down on pepsi's side. Apparently. It's the drink for a new generation


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## Saul Goodman (Apr 18, 2017)

She's bringing back free milk for schoolkids.


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Some Meeja tweeting that lectern does not carry Downing St. sign...party political, then?



looks that way. Its going to be a fucking GE isnt it?  Fucks sake, you'd think there is more important things to be getting on with.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

"Trump due to make 6.am announcement..."

people are posting this on social media, oh crap...

nothing on msm though.


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## Nine Bob Note (Apr 18, 2017)

The Beeb seems to be favouring her going off into the sunset.

King Boris, fuck yeah!


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

CJA to be rescinded. Citizen Wage announced. Free puppies.


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## Libertad (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> CJA to be rescinded. Citizen Wage announced. Free puppies.



You've already got yours.


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## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> looks that way. Its going to be a fucking GE isnt it?  Fucks sake, you'd think there is more important things to be getting on with.


She literally can't announce one. She might say that what she wants, but it cannot, now, be 'announced'.


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## Ranbay (Apr 18, 2017)

Election june the 8th


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> CJA to be rescinded. Citizen Wage announced. Free puppies.


John Major given life peerage,may to resign in his favour: hence major announcement


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)




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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> She's bringing back free milk for schoolkids.



This to make up for the closure of all free education.


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## Nine Bob Note (Apr 18, 2017)

Paddypower odds of election this year down to 1/7


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## Celyn (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> ... Free puppies.


 
But you have a puppy in captivity.  It won't want to be thrown out to fend for itself.


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## Mr Moose (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> John Major given life peerage,may to resign in his favour: hence major announcement



John Major to be made an honorary major. Hence major Major announcement.


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## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

Oh, alright then...

Coz it's outside with no HMG seal on the front it's an election - inside and with HMG seal it would be war, EU or economic crisis.

Only 15 minutes until my reputation as the world's worst political forecaster is not only confirmed, but polished!


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## Kaka Tim (Apr 18, 2017)

Gruan live feed has varous political sources saying its a general election. Not sure how she gets past the FTPA.


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## Dan U (Apr 18, 2017)

fwiw


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

Sharia law is to be implemented immediately.


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## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

£ fell off a cliff already.


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## Ponyutd (Apr 18, 2017)

She's pregnant!


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## Ponyutd (Apr 18, 2017)

Even money it's twins.


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## Dan U (Apr 18, 2017)

8th June GE it is then


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## Voley (Apr 18, 2017)

Election, then.


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## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)




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## Saul Goodman (Apr 18, 2017)

She's leading the country into war with (insert oil-rich nation with limited military power)


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## twentythreedom (Apr 18, 2017)

Oh God no. Another election


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

if it is an election, whats the odds on it becoming effectively a second reff?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2017)

Ponyutd said:


> Even money it's twins.



To be called Carol & Mark.


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## 19force8 (Apr 18, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Apparently, they're naming next month after her.


Theresa?


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## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

General Election June 8th!


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## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

Election confirmed.  This could easily blow up in her face.


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## ruffneck23 (Apr 18, 2017)

General election it is then...


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## Nine Bob Note (Apr 18, 2017)

Ponyutd said:


> She's pregnant!


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 18, 2017)

Tsk... on my Birthday too


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 18, 2017)

SHES HAVING AN ERECTION ON 8TH OF JUNE!



Good she's able to schedule these things so well.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Many citizens feel powerless at times like this, a new Tory mandate will mean the end for many disabled and sick people.


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

sigh


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## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

wow. she is making it explicitly a leave / stay in election.


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## Nine Bob Note (Apr 18, 2017)

She really is a cunt


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

Scum


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## chandlerp (Apr 18, 2017)

How can she call an election if two thirds of the House haven't agreed?


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)

They have reanimated the dead corpse of Thatcher and she will be lead the brexit talks about Gibraltar..


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## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

"We can't allow other parties political games to affect Brexit"

lol


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## ffsear (Apr 18, 2017)

I'm fucking sick of voting


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## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

OH FFFFFFFFFFFFFFS


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

She's announced she's putting a motion to parliament - not a general election.


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

chandlerp said:


> How can she call an election if two thirds of the House haven't agreed?


Going by the shenanigans over Brexit - e.g. David Davis not knowing that UK has a land border with the EU for example - I wouldn't be surprised if she's forgotten about that little detail.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> wow. she is making it explicitly a leave / stay in election.


Tim Farron is in the vinegars right now.


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)

So can we say that leaving the EU is not going to well so get an election in before shit hits the fan..


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## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

Rather surprised she didn't propose an Act of Attainder for David Cameron....


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> She's announced she's putting a motion to parliament - not a general election.



Yep. Framed as 'calls general election' by entire media though.


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## hash tag (Apr 18, 2017)

From what's she said, she sounds under pressure....from the lords, the lib send, Scottish nationalists....either that or she has had enough and wants a way out. X


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## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Yep. Framed as 'calls general election' by entire media though.


So it just a bluff, the other parties will not agree to an election proving her as the strong one with the mandate?


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## Kesher (Apr 18, 2017)

Ax^ said:


> So can we say that leaving the EU is not going to well so get an election in before shit hits the fan..



Indeed we can


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## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2017)

I hope it does blow up in her face, and some senior ministers lose their seats.


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## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Yep. Framed as 'calls general election' by entire media though.


...who will also allow themselves to used to frame it as about brexit when it's really about taking advantage of domestic circumstances to grind labour into the dirt and help the lib-dems to nick loads of city/urban labour seats (excellent medium to long term politics btw). The latter helped immeasurably by that media's brexit framing.


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## 03gills (Apr 18, 2017)

This feels less like an announcement of a general election & more like a Conservative party political broadcast.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> She's announced she's putting a motion to parliament - not a general election.



It's a shoo-in though.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Rather surprised she didn't propose an Act of Attainder for David Cameron....


No one in the cabinet can spell attainder, they have enough difficulty with act or of.


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 18, 2017)

How long are people gonna put up with this crap?  When are people going to get off their knees.  Do we really want a world run by Trump, Erdogan, Orban, May and the corporations with the moronic alt right zombie storm troopers in reserve?


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## hot air baboon (Apr 18, 2017)

before or after boundary changes ?


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## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Task force to Gib?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> before or after boundary changes ?


Always with the fucking binaries 

*during*


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> How long are people gonna put up with this crap?  When are people going to get off their knees.  Do we really want a world run by Trump, Erdogan, Orban, May and the corporations with the moronic alt right zombie storm troopers in reserve?


How long do you think?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I hope it does blow up in her face, and some senior ministers lose their seats.


Not to mention faces


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## Celyn (Apr 18, 2017)

But wouldn't a general election be a bit disruptive during all this Brexit fun and games? Someone really ought to tell her that "now is not the time".


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Gonna need Len as Unite leader/opposition after the decimation.


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## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> No one in the cabinet can spell attainder, they have enough difficulty with act or of.



Oh, I'm sure they'd be prepared to put the study in for the chance to watch Dave grimace as he walks up to the barrel of Malmsey...


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## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> How long do you think?


Until the war breaks out?


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## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

"Dear Tristran, I am a Labour MP of many years standing and wonder if you have any positions for curators or even those people who sit on chairs in the rooms, keeping an eye on the ancient exhibits. As a Parliamentarian, I feel particularly qualified for the latter"


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

Celyn said:


> But wouldn't a general election be a bit disruptive during all this Brexit fun and games? Someone really ought to tell her that "now is not the time".


My immediate reaction is that this is a desperate move by someone who knows there's no way of brexiting without a huge general fuck-up. So could she be hoping that a roll of the dice will bring in enough Lib Dems to make a coalition necessary - and to make a rerun of the vote a necessary condition for any new Tory-LD lashup?

Or is that overestimating her intelligence, and that of the Lib Dems?


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> My immediate reaction is that this is a desperate move by someone who knows there's no way of brexiting without a huge general fuck-up. So could she be hoping that a roll of the dice will bring in enough Lib Dems to make a coalition necessary - and to make a rerun of the vote a necessary condition for any new Tory-LD lashup?
> 
> Or is that overestimating her intelligence, and that of the Lib Dems?


and then use the libdems as your human shield again. Oh I think they are stupid enough to buddy up to the tories again


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## Yossarian (Apr 18, 2017)

Think I might have to liven this shit up by having a drink every time one of the candidates says "Brexit."


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## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> and then use the libdems as your human shield again. Oh I think they are stupid enough to buddy up to the tories again



There's a Scottish lib dem on the BBC right now simultaneously touting the benefits of coalition government with the Tories and warning of the brutality of the Tories


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

so two main shit things:

this could make the lib dems a thing again

its going to be run on brexit lines, so it'll be divisive and hostile. Everywhere.


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## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Gonna need Len as Unite leader/opposition after the decimation.


Nice timing to push the Unite election to the backend of the news!


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)

so when we vote we should accept the results and deal with it


only when i comes to referendums it would appear...


party that brought in fixed terms 1 quits and his follow up calls a snap election


never trust a tory


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## Lord Camomile (Apr 18, 2017)

Ugh.


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## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Think I might have to liven this shit up by having a drink every time one of the candidates says "Brexit."


Liver transplant - Waiting list - NHS Choices


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)

hmm will Corbin say "fuck that noise"?


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## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> My immediate reaction is that this is a desperate move by someone who knows there's no way of brexiting without a huge general fuck-up. So could she be hoping that a roll of the dice will bring in enough Lib Dems to make a coalition necessary - and to make a rerun of the vote a necessary condition for any new Tory-LD lashup?
> 
> Or is that overestimating her intelligence, and that of the Lib Dems?


Not my immediate reaction. My immediate reaction is that she wants an election before it all goes to shit while she can still keep a clear majority. Must be judging that 3 years from now is not long enough to be clear of brexit mess, and she may be very unpopular by then.


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## moochedit (Apr 18, 2017)

are we still having the council (and west mids mayor) elections on may 4th? or will they move them to june 8th as well?


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## Ax^ (Apr 18, 2017)

so was that 50 mentions of the Brexit during the announcement...


fucking bored already


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## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

moochedit said:


> are we still having the council (and west mids mayor) elections on may 4th? or will they move them to june 8th as well?



Yes council elections will be uneffected.


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## editor (Apr 18, 2017)

*Title edited for clarity


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## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

Being a bit serious, i can't think of any potential PPC that both wings of my CLP would support. 

We are one of those swing seats in the south Midlands that has to be won in order to get within 50-odd seats of forming a government.

We aren't ready for the local elections in May, we're not within a million miles of being ready to fight a GE. Labour have won this seat, we'll be lucky if we're third on 8 June...


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> Yes council elections will be uneffected.


that means they won't happen. a not e


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## pengaleng (Apr 18, 2017)

what? so everyone can vote her out? shes showing a total lack of confidence in herself.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

the circus comes to town. Bob Geldof on the thames. Wonder if father of lies Nuttal will be ready to run a campaign.


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## pengaleng (Apr 18, 2017)

this country standing alone is a fucking embarrassment.


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## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

Election and huge Tory majority before the economic shit heap that will be hard Brexit. 

The only silver lining I can see are the job losses of a lot of Blairite PLP members. But apart from that it's wall to wall fucking horrendous.


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## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> the circus comes to town. Bob Geldof on the thames. Wonder if father of lies Nuttal will be ready to run a campaign.



His party is skint and has just lost a substantial donor...


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## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> the circus comes to town. Bob Geldof on the thames.



Only this time Roy Keane turns up and shouts "you're not even English" at him.

What do we think of this?


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> the circus comes to town. Bob Geldof on the thames. Wonder if father of lies Nuttal will be ready to run a campaign.



UKIP will be fucked. Not that it matters much from a parliamentary aspect but I can see their vote dropping through the floor. May has basically stolen their thunder.


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## DownwardDog (Apr 18, 2017)

Presumably she thinks JC is on borrowed time and doesn't want to waste him on just locals.


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## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> what? so everyone can vote her out? shes showing a total lack of confidence in herself.



She's not going to get voted out though, is she? (Assuming the election actually happens.) Smart move from her POV but going to be really fucking annoying for the rest of us.


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## Celyn (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> My immediate reaction is that this is a desperate move by someone who knows there's no way of brexiting without a huge general fuck-up. So could she be hoping that a roll of the dice will bring in enough Lib Dems to make a coalition necessary - and to make a rerun of the vote a necessary condition for any new Tory-LD lashup?
> 
> Or is that overestimating her intelligence, and that of the Lib Dems?


My "now is not the time" was mainly me having a laugh because a Scottish referendum in 2018 would be all sorts of wrong because "now is not the time",m but all of a sudden a General Election is perfectly cool.

But your point about a Tory/ LibDem lash-up - oh god, would the LibDems do that again?  Oops, yes they would, I suppose.


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## gawkrodger (Apr 18, 2017)

(planned) to take place on my birthday as well


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## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> What do we think of this?




Would certainly make things more interesting, can't see it happening though.  Certainly not with Corbyn at the helm.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

gawkrodger said:


> (planned) to take place on my birthday as well


Yeh. Bad luck.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> and then use the libdems as your human shield again. Oh I think they are stupid enough to buddy up to the tories again



course they are, coalitions are in their DNA


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## Beats & Pieces (Apr 18, 2017)

Corbyn has issued a statement welcoming the move.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Sue said:


> She's not going to get voted out though, is she? (Assuming the election actually happens.) Smart move from her POV but going to be really fucking annoying for the rest of us.



a matter of life or death for some disabled and sick people.


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## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Beats & Pieces said:


> Corbyn has issued a statement welcoming the move.




Looks for a Turkey image.


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## gentlegreen (Apr 18, 2017)

So, political experts and those who've actually read the thread ...

Could this mean Brexit is in the long grass ?


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## ska invita (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Looks for a Turkey image.


I hear that they've been expecting and planning for this for months now


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2017)

Sue said:


> She's not going to get voted out though, is she? (Assuming the election actually happens.) Smart move from her POV but going to be really fucking annoying for the rest of us.



She'll come back with a much larger majority and a mandate to do what the fuck she likes. Labour will be slaughtered. That will strengthen her hand in Brexit negotiations, especially if the French and german elections don't go the way the EU need them to.

But yeah, a right fucker for us.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 18, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> Could this mean Brexit is in the long grass ?


Surely consolidates May's position and silences dissent if she increases her majority


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> a matter of life or death for some disabled and sick people.


Would it be any different if there wasn't (potentially) this snap election?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> So, political experts and those who've actually read the thread ...
> 
> Could this mean Brexit is in the long grass ?


article 50 has a 2 year limit that is not going to be affected by who is in charge domestically. Thats my understanding anyway


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> She'll come back with a much larger majority and a mandate to do what the fuck she likes. Labour will be slaughtered. That will strengthen her hand in Brexit negotiations, especially if the French and german elections don't go the way the EU need them to.
> 
> But yeah, a right fucker for us.


Liked because I agree. Fucksake.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

gentlegreen said:


> So, political experts and those who've actually read the thread ...
> 
> Could this mean Brexit is in the long grass ?


I wouldn't have thought so. This is a political calculation that they will get back into power with a majority, possibly an increased majority. It isn't anything more than that, and brexit will continue as before afterwards if May's calculation is right.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not my immediate reaction. My immediate reaction is that she wants an election before it all goes to shit while she can still keep a clear majority. Must be judging that 3 years from now is not long enough to be clear of brexit mess, and she may be very unpopular by then.


From her point of view it gives her the opportunity to get a personal mandate as PM going forward through the Brexit process. The opinion polls look good for her and also there's the French and German general elections coming up and Brexit talks won't really get going until after those elections, so this is the best time for her. I hope she doesn't get the 2/3 majority in the Commons to make it happen, but she probably will.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Dr. Furface said:


> From her point of view it gives her the opportunity to get a personal mandate as PM going forward through the Brexit process. The opinion polls look good for her and also there's the French and German general elections coming up and Brexit talks won't really get going until after those elections, so this is the best time for her. I hope she doesn't get the 2/3 majority in the Commons to make it happen, but she probably will.


I doubt she gives two shits about a personal mandate. Just thinks she'll win now and may not win in three years. That's all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> course they are, coalitions are in their DNA


Don't talk rot. I can remember tory and labour in coalition in Hackney, never seen you say coalition's in labour or tory dna.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 18, 2017)

[edit: can't be arsed]


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I wouldn't have thought so. This is a political calculation that they will get back into power with a majority, possibly an increased majority. It isn't anything more than that, and brexit will continue as before afterwards if May's calculation is right.


Maybe someone who knows what they're doing might enter the govt. Faint hope tho.


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

Lib dems will be saying stop brexit vote for us, theyll probably have to get clarity on article 5o being reversible or not, but i don't see how calling an election helps May in her pretended pro-brexit stance.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

I can see the Greens and Lib Dems doing very well out of this in Remain voting urban constituencies.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Lib dems will be saying stop brexit vote for us, theyll probably have to get clarity on article 5o being reversible or not, but i don't see how calling an election helps May in her pretended pro-brexit stance.


May has a long record of following through on commitments that she hasn't personally made but that are tied to office/votes. Previous home secs reckless promises of reducing immigration to a trickle is the most famous one. She might not have supported brexit but you can be damn sure she is now going to follow through on it.


----------



## phillm (Apr 18, 2017)

mk12 said:


> [edit: can't be arsed]



so many times have had the same feeling.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Lib dems will be saying stop brexit vote for us, theyll probably have to get clarity on article 5o being reversible or not, but i don't see how calling an election helps May in her pretended pro-brexit stance.



You need unanimous support from all 28 states to stop Art 50.  (Any contract where all parties are in agreement they are a hiding to nothing can be stopped), less than unanimous and you are just encouraging diva-esque behaviour to secure leverage.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I doubt she gives two shits about a personal mandate. Just thinks she'll win now and may not win in three years. That's all.



I think you're right. Fairly clear she'll increase the Tories' majority, but at the same time the turnout's likely to be shite, so you could argue the 'mandate' point either way (and it will be). But either way she'll still have won a GE as sitting PM and have a couple extra years.


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I can see the Greens and Lib Dems doing very well out of this in Remain voting urban constituencies.



It'll be interesting to see what happens in my constituency (Manchester Central), as it is a solid Labour seat (21,639 majority) and with a significant Remain vote (60%).  Turnout is always an issue here though.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

I think it was Pompey Magnus who said (in the first season of Rome, about the battle of Pharsalus) "_It didn't seem possible to lose. That's always a bad sign._"


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> I think it was Pompey Magnus who said (in the first season of Rome, about the battle of Pharsalus) "_It didn't seem possible to lose. That's always a bad sign._"


What's the Latin for "clutching at straws"?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> wow. she is making it explicitly a leave / stay in election.



Picked a great time for that, what with us having already left


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> May has a long record of following through on commitments that she hasn't personally made but that are tied to office/votes. Previous home secs reckless promises of reducing immigration to a trickle is the most famous one. She might not have supported brexit but you can be damn sure she is now going to follow through on it.


That's her big weakness, I think (you saw the LRB piece, I suppose). She has an uncontrollable urge to be a Good Girl, doing as her parents and teachers tell her.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> That's her big weakness, I think (you saw the LRB piece, I suppose). She has an uncontrollable urge to be a Good Girl, doing as her parents and teachers tell her.


A pity they brought her up so badly


----------



## hash tag (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> UKIP will be fucked. Not that it matters much from a parliamentary aspect but I can see their vote dropping through the floor. May has basically stolen their thunder.



UKIP all but failed to exist after the Euro vote! any UKIP votes will be heading back toi the torys.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> That's her big weakness, I think (you saw the LRB piece, I suppose). She has an uncontrollable urge to be a Good Girl, doing as her parents and teachers tell her.


Yes, i had that exact piece in mind.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

farmerbarleymow said:


> It'll be interesting to see what happens in my constituency (Manchester Central), as it is a solid Labour seat (21,639 majority) and with a significant Remain vote (60%).  Turnout is always an issue here though.



I think local Plaid will be gunning for my constituency, Cardiff West, 6,000 Labour majority, voted 60% remain.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 18, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I think you're right. Fairly clear she'll increase the Tories' majority, but at the same time the turnout's likely to be shite, so you could argue the 'mandate' point either way (and it will be). But either way she'll still have won a GE as sitting PM and have a couple extra years.



Turn out will probably be standard. People are generally a bit bored with politics, but also feel compelled to vote when it's a GE.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> She'll come back with a much larger majority and a mandate to do what the fuck she likes. Labour will be slaughtered. That will strengthen her hand in Brexit negotiations, especially if the French and german elections don't go the way the EU need them to.
> 
> But yeah, a right fucker for us.



Depressingly accurate.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Will the tories repeat the same quite-possibly-illegal tactics from 2015? Will Farage return from exile to lead his party to another ignominious failure? Will the ghost of Jim Callaghan appear in Westminster Abbey to do battle with a naked Tim Farron for the soul of British centrism? Stay tuned to _Oh Shit This Is Actually Real Life_ for all this and more.


----------



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Nothing on the Momentum FB page yet, they will play a big part in mobilising for the GE.


----------



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

> Theresa May has just called a snap general election for Thursday 8th June.
> 
> There’s no time to waste. We need to organise.
> 
> ...




Ah

I think the donation request at the end is a bit misleading, people could think it was for the LP.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Will the tories repeat the same quite-possibly-illegal tactics from 2015? Will Farage return from exile to lead his party to another ignominious failure? Will the ghost of Jim Callaghan appear in Westminster Abbey to do battle with a naked Tim Farron for the soul of British centrism? Stay tuned to _Oh Shit This Is Actually Real Life_ for all this and more.



A couple of months ago you were saying you had to be on crack to think there would be early general election. 


This election removes any headaches over what to do about any illegality of conduct in the lastone.


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> That's her big weakness, I think (you saw the LRB piece, I suppose). She has an uncontrollable urge to be a Good Girl, doing as her parents and teachers tell her.


Are you talking about this one? 
edit: yes, must be. I see. 'Whether or not May believes in Brexit is really a secondary issue. For her politics is all about following through.'


----------



## DownwardDog (Apr 18, 2017)

The Conservatives are bringing back Ser Lynton of House Crosby. Labour should have just paid him more to stay at home on the North Shore.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> A couple of months ago you were saying you had to be on crack to think there would be early general election.



As did a number of other people. Turns out I can't see the future after all. Remains to be seen if the PLP will follow Corbyn on this and actually vote for a GE though.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2017)

The right wing of the Labour party will be overjoyed by this. May will increase her majority, and then Corbyn will have no choice but to go.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

Apologies if this is a repost:


----------



## Corax (Apr 18, 2017)

Well fuck me, I didn't expect that.

I'm overjoyed to have the opportunity to put an x against the red-rosetted candidate in this jingoistic rural cesspit of ignorance and fox mutilation.  That'll show the tories.  _*shakes fist*_


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Turn out will probably be standard. People are generally a bit bored with politics, but also feel compelled to vote when it's a GE.



They do compared to locals, sure, but even GE turnouts fluctuate depending on various factors. The 'what difference will my vote make anyway' stay-at-home contingent seems likely to be at least as strong as ever this time.

But maybe any kind of psephological predictions make you hostage to fortune considering the last couple of years.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 18, 2017)

emanymton said:


> The right wing of the Labour party will be overjoyed by this. May will increase her majority, and then Corbyn will have no choice but to go.


But the membership won't replace him with a Blairite/right winger...


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 18, 2017)

Corax said:


> Well fuck me, I didn't expect that.
> 
> I'm overjoyed to have the opportunity to put an x against the red-rosetted candidate in this jingoistic rural cesspit of ignorance and fox mutilation.  That'll show the tories.  _*shakes fist*_


'There's never been a better time to be a socialist.'


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 18, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> But the membership won't replace him with a Blairite/right winger...


There is quite a spectrum between Corbyn and Blair though.  Labour would be crazy if they didn't move at least a couple of inches to the right.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Nothing on the Momentum FB page yet, they will play a big part in mobilising for the GE.


They're irrelevant.


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 18, 2017)

The Tories have loads of safe seats that will return Tory MPs. Labour is in disarray and Tim Farron isn't the man to make the LibDems a force again. Tory voters will vote Tory whatever is in the manifesto  and chances are it'll be the government deciding on any future deal ie  there not being a referendum on it.

So there'll be another Tory majority,  possibly bigger than the current  one.

May will use this to say  that whatever  crappy  deal ir no deal the government reaches is ok as it's THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> There is quite a spectrum between Corbyn and Blair though.  Labour would be crazy if they didn't move at least a couple of inches to the right.



I suppose choosing a position based on principle and rationality rather than harebrained political opportunism is out of the question?


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suppose choosing a position based on principle and rationality rather than harebrained political opportunism is out of the question?


Sure. But the rational decision would be to move to the right of Corbyn. You could hardly get much further left?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Nothing on the Momentum FB page yet, they will play a big part in mobilising for the GE.



What difference do you think they'll make?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Sure. But the rational decision would be to move to the right of Corbyn. You could hardly get much further left?


 Corbyn's rather moderate all things considered. I would place Mélenchon in France significantly to the left of him. Doing alright.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I suppose choosing a position based on principle and rationality rather than harebrained political opportunism is out of the question?



The early 80s called. It wants its rhetorical question back.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Beetlebum said:


> Sure. But the rational decision would be to move to the right of Corbyn. You could hardly get much further left?



There's plenty of left to the left of Corbyn. Maybe not within the narrow window that the establishment will give creedence to but out in the real world, yeah Corbyn could be a lot more left wing.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> But the membership won't replace him with a Blairite/right winger...


I'm not sure they will have much choice. But in any case i think enough members will accept that you can't win an election with Corbyn's policies, even if they like those policies.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> The early 80s called. It wants its rhetorical question back.



Yes I could feel the hopelessness of that post descending upon me even as I was typing it.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Lib dems will be saying stop brexit vote for us, theyll probably have to get clarity on article 5o being reversible or not, but i don't see how calling an election helps May in her pretended pro-brexit stance.



even if the libs amazingly did engineer a re-entry it would be through the door marked supplicants rather than applicants. This will not stop them getting votes though.


rubbershoes said:


> Tim Farron isn't the man to make the LibDems a force again



makes no odds if perma cumface is in charge or not imo, they will clean up floating 'anyone but tory' votes, in labour remainer areas.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

emanymton said:


> I'm not sure they will have much choice. But in any case i think enough members will accept that you can't win an election with Corbyn's policies, even if they like those policies.


Sadly I don't think it's the policies that are the problem but they may be pointed at as the problem. Corbyn has failed to build on the initial feeling on his election. He's a crap public speaker, sadly, which matters. Compare and contrast with Mélenchon.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

I wonder if Cornwall will turn yellow again after coming to the shock realisation that if you vote to leave the EU, you don't get a big fat bucketload of EU cash any more.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

I've already spotted people on FB in London, Bristol and Bath going on about voting Lib Dem because of Brexit. It's going to be a long couple of months.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I've already spotted people on FB in London, Bristol and Bath going on about voting Lib Dem because of Brexit. It's going to be a long couple of months.



I hate these people more than I hate Tories


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 18, 2017)

She really is a dogged and turgid uninspired bore of a politician. A lifetime of reliable non threatening fucking service. May we all be thankful .


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I've already spotted people on FB in London, Bristol and Bath going on about voting Lib Dem because of Brexit. *It's going to be a long couple of months.*



Ain't that the truth.  FFS .


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I've already spotted people on FB in London, Bristol and Bath going on about voting Lib Dem because of Brexit. It's going to be a long couple of months.


Guardian comments section seems to see it as a second referendum. Example: "I'd have a no- contest pact between candidates opposed to Brexit no matter which party they represent. So in every seat there's just one person you can vote for who will put country before party and work to keep us IN the EU..'


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Supposing Labour stay where they are and the Lib Dems steal back enough seats to negate the tory majority. What do the lib dems do when there's a tory party that needs propping up? Oh yeah, they jump on board and wave through all manner of horrible tory shit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

emanymton said:


> The right wing of the Labour party will be overjoyed by this. May will increase her majority, and then Corbyn will have no choice but to go.



100 plus Tory Majority that will take a decade plus to overturn, triple attack on thier core vote from LD, SNP and Tory/UKIP, further leadership row beginning on 9th June.

They must be dancing in the streets


----------



## Libertad (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Nothing on the Momentum FB page yet, they will play a big part in mobilising for the GE.



Ha ha ha ha, you really haven't got a fucking clue have you?


----------



## Dr. Furface (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Guardian comments section seems to see it as a second referendum. Example: "I'd have a no- contest pact between candidates opposed to Brexit no matter which party they represent. So in every seat there's just one person you can vote for who will put country before party and work to keep us IN the EU..'


Yeah, that's really going to happen


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Guardian comments section seems to see it as a second referendum. Example: "I'd have a no- contest pact between candidates opposed to Brexit no matter which party they represent. So in every seat there's just one person you can vote for who will put country before party and work to keep us IN the EU..'



There's only really a few seats in Wales where the Lib Dems might challenge another anti-brexit party.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sadly I don't think it's the policies that are the problem but they may be pointed at as the problem. Corbyn has failed to build on the initial feeling on his election. He's a crap public speaker, sadly, which matters. Compare and contrast with Mélenchon.


I agree, but I think enough Labour members will accept that argument to prevent another left leader being elected.


----------



## marty21 (Apr 18, 2017)

Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it



Manna from heaven for the Tories.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?



If he did that Labour's vote would collapse in very many marginal constituencies, it would increase primarily in seats that Labour do well in already.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

I hope Corbyn U-turns on Brexit. It probably wouldn't make much difference but it would make the whole pantomime a lot funnier.

And look at the alternative, the two largest parties both with leaders who (ostensibly) opposed brexit, and both of them going into a GE as pro-brexit. Is that any less ridiculous?


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 18, 2017)

its also a chance to dump all their old manifesto commitments - which tripped them up badly over NIC's in the Budget - presume grammar shcools will be in there, and doubtless dropping the bit about staying the single market


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?


By the time of the election he will be able to present a united front with the new French President Jean-Luc Mélenchon, as they outline their plans for a new era of pan-European cooperation that is not in the bosses' pocket. 

/Dreams...


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?



No, he should point out - at every given opportunity - the massive irresponsibility in the Tories taking six weeks out of an already shortened Brexit negotiation period to have an election that is solely in their political interests.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> If he did that Labour's vote would collapse in very many marginal constituencies, it would increase primarily in seats that Labour do well in already.



Dunno, it might get them a few tory seats in London. The most brexity parts of the country were mostly in tory heartlands IIRC, with more marginal results in the northern cities.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> No, he should point out - at every given opportunity - the massive irresponsibility in the Tories taking six weeks out of an already shortened Brexit negotiation period to have an election that is solely in their political interests.


In which case, should he vote for or against this election? Bit of a quandary still, I would have thought.


----------



## Ms T (Apr 18, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> The Tories have loads of safe seats that will return Tory MPs. Labour is in disarray and Tim Farron isn't the man to make the LibDems a force again. Tory voters will vote Tory whatever is in the manifesto  and chances are it'll be the government deciding on any future deal ie  there not being a referendum on it.
> 
> So there'll be another Tory majority,  possibly bigger than the current  one.
> 
> May will use this to say  that whatever  crappy  deal ir no deal the government reaches is ok as it's THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE


Not necessarily. A friend who is a lifelong Tory has just said that for the first time in his life he has no idea how he will vote in the GE.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Lest we forget.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In which case, should he vote for or against this election? Bit of a quandary still, I would have thought.



Voting against it would be terminal for him, voting for and attacking them head on is the only course of action he can take - and it just might work.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

I had thought she might announce a plan to seek ever closer union with the United Arab Emirates. After all after Lizzie pops it there's the succession question and the Princes are short of domestic servants.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

Hitting the ground running.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Dunno, it might get them a few tory seats in London. The most brexity parts of the country were mostly in tory heartlands IIRC, with more marginal results in the northern cities.


You remember very wrongly.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I've already spotted people on FB in London, Bristol and Bath going on about voting Lib Dem because of Brexit. It's going to be a long couple of months.



I bet Vince Cable is licking his lips already.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You remember very wrongly.



OK well thanks as always for another informative post.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

I would imagine that there are more constituencies in South Yorkshire that Labour would lose if it turned anti-Brexit than it would gain in the whole rest of the country.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Ha ha ha ha, you really haven't got a fucking clue have you?



enlighten us ?


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's only really a few seats in Wales where the Lib Dems might challenge another anti-brexit party.



Plaid Cymru will I imagine be positioning themselves as the pro EU party in Wales. Should play well in both the Remain voting NW and some of the South Wales cities where they've been trying to challenge Labour. Be very interesting to see what happens in Rhondda, where Leanne Wood is AM but voted strongly Leave.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> OK well thanks as always for another informative post.


No worries - glad to help you stop making analysis based on almost upside down idea of what happened and where.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?



yep, drive away Labour's working class base for ever, sounds like a plan


----------



## emanymton (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> 100 plus Tory Majority that will take a decade plus to overturn, triple attack on thier core vote from LD, SNP and Tory/UKIP, further leadership row beginning on 9th June.
> 
> They must be dancing in the streets


There won't be a 100+ majority. They still believe they are right and their road is the only eay to win. And most of them would prefer May in power to Corbyn anyway.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


Not even Andrew Hertford


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> Plaid Cymru will I imagine be positioning themselves as the pro EU party in Wales. Should play well in both the Remain voting NW and some of the South Wales cities where they've been trying to challenge Labour. Be very interesting to see what happens in Rhondda, where Leanne Wood is AM but voted strongly Leave.


How strongly are these areas 'remain' or 'brexit', though? As in, how much do people actually place this shit at the top of their concerns? Nobody asked to be asked their opinion on the EU, and there's no reason for people on either side to have strong feelings about it. This election will probably be all about brexit, which plays into the tory hands, seems to me, whatever your stance on it.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

Can't see Labour coming out of this well. Corbyn should have battled the party before and during the referendum and campaigned for a strong alternative left leave. Lib Dems will cosy up to the Tories again.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?



It's theoretically possible. Corbyn seems to have seen this coming and has recently been holding forth on life expectancy, living standards and other non-brexit open goals. If by some miracle his party gets beind him on these issues Labour might end up no worse off than they are now.

But do I think it actually will go well for labour? No. And the resulting fallout will not result in a united blairite labour party with a stronger leader, but in another five years of disarray and failure.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

Also, May is probably calling the election to avoid the potential 12 scandalous by-elections the police investigation in the election expenses scandal could trigger. 

Tory election spending claims: 12 police forces pass files to CPS


----------



## Libertad (Apr 18, 2017)

cantsin said:


> enlighten us ?



Momentum will play little or no part in mobilising for the GE. Momentum are an irrelevance.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Also, May is probably calling the election to avoid the potential 12 scandalous by-elections the police investigation in the election expenses scandal could trigger.
> 
> Tory election spending claims: 12 police forces pass files to CPS



god you are almost as bad on British politics as you are American politics


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

A UK election now would be a good way to avoid one after what looks like being a very messy and chaotic Hard Brexit that leaves Team May looking like a bunch of dogmatic twits or shortly after opting for something soft and strong and very long sends the Kipper tendency apoplectic. 

Labor's gnawing through it's own gonads and UKIP are like a pub carpark punch up. It should be a walk in the park for the Tories.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2017)

So, Labour are going to get utterly trashed, the Tories have free reign for another 5 years and the country lurches even further to the right and won't ever get back to anything even remotely progressive.

This is it. They've won. We're fucked.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

Labour were fucked anyway. And fucking us all over in the process.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Also, May is probably calling the election to avoid the potential 12 scandalous by-elections the police investigation in the election expenses scandal could trigger.
> 
> Tory election spending claims: 12 police forces pass files to CPS


For fucks sake, she's calling it to decimate the Labour Party and give the tories a solid 5 years to asset strip the country.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


I'd look on the bright side: it might not be as bad for them as what happened in Scotland. At least UKIP are still in a post-Farage shambles.


----------



## Kesher (Apr 18, 2017)

Here are all the times Theresa May said there would be no election


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


only on the basis that I can't really accurately predict elections and there has been surprises in the last few years. But looking at it direct, no, I think they are going to get hammered.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So, Labour are going to get utterly trashed, the Tories have free reign for another 5 years and the country lurches even further to the right and won't ever get back to anything even remotely progressive.
> 
> This is it. They've won. We're fucked.



You live in the W Mids as well, don't you? I feel like I never, ever run into anyone who would vote Labour outside of university students who often come from different areas anyway.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Momentum will play little or no part in mobilising for the GE. Momentum are an irrelevance.



 all reports so far seem to have been that Momentum have played important boots on the ground roles at the by elections etc so far, what are you basing this claim on ?


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ..... This election will probably be all about brexit, which plays into the tory hands, seems to me, whatever your stance on it.



This is very much the line thats being pushed.  Tories on the radio already calling it a single issue election and the media happy to go along with it.  Corbyn's chatter about the NHS etc will be drowned out even if there was anyone listening.


----------



## mk12 (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> If he did that Labour's vote would collapse in very many marginal constituencies, it would increase primarily in seats that Labour do well in already.


Labour need to win over working-class Brexiteers while also stopping middle-class remainers from leaving and/or voting Lib Dem.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Labour were fucked anyway. And fucking us all over in the process.


is this the Pasok meltdown coming finally one wonders


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> This is very much the line thats being pushed.  Tories on the radio already calling it a single issue election and the media happy to go along with it.  Corbyn's chatter about the NHS etc will be drowned out even if there was anyone listening.



I will never forget what David Axelrod said after the Tory win in 2015

David Axelrod: UK media most partisan I have seen – even more than Fox News



> Asked in an interview with Politico Europe whether he knew what he was getting into when he signed up to advise the British Labour leader, Axelrod replied: “We discussed this when I signed on … I’ve worked in aggressive media environments before but not this partisan.”
> 
> Axelrod, who shepherded Obama through two presidential campaigns and the constant media churn of cable news and talk radio, said he thought American media were far less driven by party politics than its British equivalent.
> 
> ...


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How strongly are these areas 'remain' or 'brexit', though? As in, how much do people actually place this shit at the top of their concerns? Nobody asked to be asked their opinion on the EU, and there's no reason for people on either side to have strong feelings about it. This election will probably be all about brexit, which plays into the tory hands, seems to me, whatever your stance on it.



I don't really understand your post tbh, you're saying people don't feel strongly about Brexit, yet the election will be all about it? I agree with the latter, and I think that whether it's rational or desirable actually people on both sides of the referendum now care hugely about it _what it has come to mean, _both in terms of the divisive and dishonest way the referendum was fought on both sides, and all that has happened since the result, not least the way some people on both sides have spoken about one another. Labour can't win without both Remainers and Leavers voting for them - in this environment it means it can't win.

I think this will result in the further destruction of the Labour Party as we know it, as part of a larger international trend where the neo liberal social democratic parties are screwed. I wish that Labour could do better with Corbyn at the helm, but I think liberals in major cities are going to vote en masse for the Lib Dems. They're crowing all over Twitter as we speak. Fucking idiots. In the longer term there will be space for a regrouping on the left, politics didn't stop in 1983, but the immediate future is fucking bleak.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> is this the Pasok meltdown coming finally one wonders



With a lot less sunshine!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I don't really understand your post tbh, you're saying people don't feel strongly about Brexit, yet the election will be all about it?


Tories will want it to be all about brexit. As will libdems. As will the compliant media. That was my point. My question was how many people from either side of opinion on the EU also see it as all about brexit.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> This is very much the line thats being pushed.  Tories on the radio already calling it a single issue election and the media happy to go along with it.  Corbyn's chatter about the NHS etc will be drowned out even if there was anyone listening.



Which is why Labour should point out that, without the need for an election, May had an uninterrupted period of time with which to conduct negotiations and conclude a deal.  All this will do is, if she wins, deny the British public the chance to question the terms and conditions of that deal for at least three years.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tories will want it to be all about brexit. As will libdems. As will the compliant media. That was my point. My question was how many people from either side of opinion on the EU also see it as all about brexit.



It suits a lot of people to have British politics descend into the inanity of US-style culture wars where cultural preferences and prejudices rather than ideas and structures are what matters.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Tories will want it to be all about brexit. As will libdems. As will the compliant media. That was my point. My question was how many people from either side of opinion on the EU also see it as all about brexit.



The liberal Remainers who are prepared to vote Lib Dem and are resolutely anti Corbyn will see it as about Brexit. That will sadly be enough to scupper the chances of Labour getting the vote out over the NHS etc. even though these are the real issues affecting people. But the liberal Remainers are far less likely to be hurting on those issues than the "Leave" voters in traditional Labour seats.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> For fucks sake, she's calling it to decimate the Labour Party and give the tories a solid 5 years to asset strip the country.



I'm not saying it's the only reason, but she was clearly dithering, 12 potential elections, happening over the course of the next two years would have been opinion polls on Brexit. And her majority is 12 anyway. I'm not saying its the ONLY reason. But it could have pushed her off the fence.


And it's fair to say this pretty much kills that story, which was gathering momentum. After the election, it's an historical foot note.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> The liberal Remainers who are prepared to vote Lib Dem and resolutely anti Corbyn will see it as about Brexit. That will sadly be enough to scupper the chances of Labour getting the vote out over the NHS etc.



People who prioritise voting about what they imagine someone else might think about croissants over the existence of the NHS.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)




----------



## Dr. Furface (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> No, he should point out - at every given opportunity - the massive irresponsibility in the Tories taking six weeks out of an already shortened Brexit negotiation period to have an election that is solely in their political interests.


Maybe but the response would be that the EU negotiations wouldn't get going until after the French and German GEs anyway, so this election won't affect that


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> I'm not saying it's the only reason, but she was clearly dithering, 12 potential elections, happening over the course of the next two years would have been opinion polls on Brexit. And her majority is 12 anyway. I'm not saying its the ONLY reason. But it could have pushed her off the fence.
> 
> 
> And it's fair to say this pretty much kills that story, which was gathering momentum. After the election, it's an historical foot note.



There is no chance that there would have been 12 byelections. Even one was unlikely. Biggest possible fallout would be a few campaign manager patsies thrown under the (battle) bus, maybe a couple of them even serving half a three month sentence, but all the MPs and senior party officials protected.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 18, 2017)

cantsin said:


> all reports so far seem to have been that Momentum have played important boots on the ground roles at the by elections etc so far, what are you basing this claim on ?



Not from what I've seen and from what I've heard from LP members that I know. Momentum here are a pressure group who'd rather hand out leaflets than go door knocking. They're virtue signallers.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

mk12 said:


> Labour need to win over working-class Brexiteers while also stopping middle-class remainers from leaving and/or voting Lib Dem.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> Which is why Labour should point out that, without the need for an election, May had an uninterrupted period of time with which to conduct negotiations and conclude a deal.  All this will do is, if she wins, deny the British public the chance to question the terms and conditions of that deal for at least three years.



My, admittedly limited, interaction with the electorate on the doorstep suggests that the electorate understand the nature/process of the negotiations far better than the 'political elite' - that either you agree stuff on the back of a fag packet and take what you can get before the 2 year limit, or you leave with nothing.

The only voters I've met so far who don't agree with the above are LD's or remain fanatics...


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?



I'm sure the massive surge in public support for Labour since Corbyn took over will be reflected in the election results


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> You live in the W Mids as well, don't you? I feel like I never, ever run into anyone who would vote Labour outside of university students who often come from different areas anyway.


Where I live currently has a 5000 vote Labour majority, and should be a solid Labour area. I can honestly see it changing


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is no chance that there would have been 12 byelections. Even one was unlikely. Biggest possible fallout would be a few campaign manager patsies thrown under the (battle) bus, maybe a couple of them even serving half a three month sentence, but all the MPs and senior party officials protected.




We don't know that for sure. C4 investigation was incredibly thorough and several MPs were implicated. 

Again I'm not saying it was the ONLY reason, but it might have been a consideration.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

kebabking said:


> My, admittedly limited, interaction with the electorate on the doorstep suggests that the electorate understand the nature/process of the negotiations far better than the 'political elite' - that either you agree stuff on the back of a fag packet and take what you can get before the 2 year limit, or you leave with nothing.
> 
> The only voters I've met so far who don't agree with the above are LD's or remain fanatics...




This would be the same savvy electorate who voted for Brexit?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> This would be the same savvy electorate who voted for Brexit?



lol did you know that voters are stupid??????


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Not from what I've seen and from what I've heard from LP members that I know. Momentum here are a pressure group who'd rather *hand out leaflets than go door knocking*. They're virtue signallers.



from what I've heard, they do quite a lot of both..at the same time


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Apr 18, 2017)

The trajectory of both national and international politics is towards conflict, if not actual war.  We will soon be faced with a choice all too familiar to others in conflict zones and periods of history.  Fight, run, or surrender yourself to the mercies (of which there will be few, judging by the internet rhetoric of the right/far right) of your enemies. Don't know about you lot, but surrender is at the moment out of the question.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

Shame the Tories have shown their usual procrastinating thoughtlessness and didn't arrange the General Election for the 4th of May alongside the local elections. More money down the pan and another cost for parents having to arrange extra child care.
Doesn't matter to their core voters who employ full time nannies.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

already getting the 'we must all vte labour' earache from ma. Its a tory safeseat in a 60% remain area. In any case, spunking cock. And we don't even know if the election will be voted for in parliament yet. Stockholm syndrome labourites


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Heard Sarah Olney on the radio an hour ago. Said the libdems were going to use the election to 'argue against a hard brexit'. That at least removes the possibility they were going to argue for a second ref.  Didn't think they _would_ actually do that, but it would have been an interesting tactic to try and hoover up a majority of the remain vote/voters in big multicultural cities/middle class voters worried about their financial stocks, shares, nannies etc.

Suspect Labour are fucked full stop - in terms of this being a vote for an incoming government and also on the party's line on brexit.  However, there's probably room to insert a Lexit line into proceedings, which might stave off disaster at least and shore up the working class vote, along with positioning themselves as a vote for all those who feel 'abandoned'.  Trouble is, while there might be 'room' for that card to be played, the party isn't in shape to deliver it with any conviction.  At least it's on the old boundaries.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Heard Sarah Olney on the radio an hour ago. Said the libdems were going to use the election to 'argue against a hard brexit'. That at least removes the possibility they were going to argue for a second ref.  Didn't think they _would_ actually do that, but it would have been an interesting tactic to try and hoover up a majority of the remain vote/voters in big multicultural cities/middle class voters worried about their financial stocks, shares, nannies etc.


What the lib-dems say formally in  national public guff and whey they'll happily say locally on the doorstep tends to be pretty far apart. They are lying shits.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> A UK election now would be a good way to avoid one after what looks like being a very messy and chaotic Hard Brexit that leaves Team May looking like a bunch of dogmatic twits or shortly after opting for something soft and strong and very long sends the Kipper tendency apoplectic.
> 
> Labor's gnawing through it's own gonads and UKIP are like a pub carpark punch up. It should be a walk in the park for the Tories.



Agreed.  Is all about transition. She keeps saying that and keeping it vague, she keeps her party together and kills UKIP. Which gives her scope to soften.  
On the flip side Art 50 triggered so we are definitely getting in the lifeboat,  and while there is short term gain for them's balking at the provisions the EU will leave us with and arguing for staying close to the davits...its not til after we are in the the lifeboat that the EU will address the UK sized hole that will need shoring up...
The election after this one and the effects of both will be noticable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Suspect Labour are fucked full stop


they lost scotland. They can certainly lose england.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they lost scotland. They can certainly lose england.


being as they've already lost England that's not such a bold prediction


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 18, 2017)

It's great timing by May, instead of trying to get a hard brexit through with a small majority now she will have a big one and be able to push through whatever.

The only bright spot is that we may see the back of Corbyn a bit sooner.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Well the pound has jumped on the announcement.  It seems the money markets are in part at least reading this as a way of May shoring her own position for what will be a longer and softer Brexit then some on her bank benches would like.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


For all the reasons labour are 21 points behind, no, it's going to go badly in as much as this is an election for an incoming government.  Voters don't see labour as a potential government or, to say the least, corbyn as a future PM.  In as much as it will be about _brexit negotiations_, there perhaps is an opportunity for labour to go hard for some kind of lexit.  The situation is unpredictable, it might shore up the vote, point to a possible future for the party.  Trouble is 1. voters will take some convincing that labour have suddenly ended up 'on their side', have become the party to take politics back to communities and real life. 2. The civil war there's been in the party since St Corbyn was elected will be as nothing if tries to drag it in a genuine populist lexit direction over the next 6 weeks. Blenkinsop resigned today, there would be more resignations/public denunciations of corbyn etc.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Well the pound has jumped on the announcement.


 Waited till we got back from Cyprus last week!


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's great timing by May, instead of trying to get a hard brexit through with a small majority now she will have a big one and be able to push through whatever.
> 
> The only bright spot is that we may see the back of Corbyn a bit sooner.



I suppose so, Labour weren't going to win the next election anyway, but an earlier chance of an effective opposition is a plus.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Teaboy said:


> Well the pound has jumped on the announcement.  It seems the money markets are in part at least reading this as a way of May shoring her own position for what will be a longer and softer Brexit then some on her bank benches would like.


Yeh the markets are wrong once again


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> already getting the 'we must all vte labour' earache from ma. Its a tory safeseat in a 60% remain area. In any case, spunking cock. And we don't even know if the election will be voted for in parliament yet. Stockholm syndrome labourites


Always the same though, the big parties have their machine, their canvassers - they're ready to roll. Spunking cock will really struggle to make a splash over just 6 weeks.


----------



## 1927 (Apr 18, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> Life on Mars discovered but questions remain as to whether there is life in Peckham


Shamelessly stolen from Alexei Sayle, Fish People Tapes if I'm not mistaken!


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Always the same though, the big parties have their machine, their canvassers - they're ready to roll. *Spunking cock will really struggle to make a splash* over just 6 weeks.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they lost scotland. They can certainly lose england.


Haven't quite got my head round how this all plays for Scotland/indie2. Tory majority and 'hard brexit' victory helps sturgeon?


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Haven't quite got my head round how this all plays for Scotland/indie2. Tory majority and 'hard brexit' victory helps sturgeon?



Yep. And hypocrisy over May attempting the 'away and eat your cereal' bit over Indyref2 then trying to pretend this election isn't purely for party political reasons.

Saying that, suspect people in Scotland are completely fed up with elections so wouldn't be surprised if turnout's down.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 18, 2017)

Sue said:


>


shows the impotence of voting in a rigged game etc


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

Is the general consensus that unless something drastic and near miraculous happens, May is set to return will the largest conservative majority since 1983? and I suspect on a platform that even Thatcher might balk at.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Is the general consensus that unless something drastic and near miraculous happens, May is set to return will the largest conservative majority since 1983? and I suspect on a platform that even Thatcher might balk at.


The worse, the better, as Lenin taught us.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Is the general consensus that unless something drastic and near miraculous happens, May is set to return will the largest conservative majority since 1983? and I suspect on a platform that even Thatcher might balk at.


Yep


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

I still think 'something drastic' may happen, that seems to be the usual outcome lately. If by something drastic you include loads and loads of people voting for the yellows.


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Is the general consensus that unless something drastic and near miraculous happens, May is set to return will the largest conservative majority since 1983? and I suspect on a platform that even Thatcher might balk at.


no


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

killer b said:


> no



No that won't happen, or no Thatcher would approve of her manifesto?

My election plans involve hoping Prime Minister Miliband from the miliverse inventing interdimensional travel and coming to save us.  The Miliverse (@TheMiliverse) on Twitter


It's slightly more plausible than a Lib Dem majority.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Heard some bbc bod breathlessly saying it was the way the negotiations are going that pushed May into calling for the election vote (that the EU want '50 billion quid payment' sorted before moving onto trade deals).  Logic seems to be that this will strengthen her position against that. I'm not sure that it alters that process at all to be honest. So I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_. The thing about having a chance to kick labour when they are down doesn't ring true either - she knew she could have beaten corbyn at any point between now and the things in the book of revelations coming to pass. 

It's a minor point and I'm sure we'll hear somebody like Michael Crick giving us some equally breathless account of the 'why now' question on newsnight.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> No that won't happen, or no Thatcher would approve of her manifesto.
> 
> My election plans involve hoping Prime Minister Miliband from the miliverse inventing interdimensional travel and coming to save us.  The Miliverse (@TheMiliverse) on Twitter



To screw us over like he would in 2015 on a pro-austerity (_'but not quite as hard/fast as the Tories_') ticket you mean?


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> No that won't happen, or no Thatcher would approve of her manifesto?
> 
> My election plans involve hoping Prime Minister Miliband from the miliverse inventing interdimensional travel and coming to save us.  The Miliverse (@TheMiliverse) on Twitter
> 
> ...


No it isn't the general consensus, here at least. Look at the GE predictions thread for a range of views.


----------



## 8den (Apr 18, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> To screw us over like he would in 2015 on a pro-austerity (_'but not quite as hard/fast as the Tories_' ticket you mean?




Yes quite right, if Ed Miliband was in charge we'd really be fucked now wouldn't we?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

8den said:


> Yes quite right, if Ed Miliband was in charge we'd really be fucked now wouldn't we?



Pretty much yeah.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Heard some bbc bod breathlessly saying it was the way the negotiations are going that pushed May into calling for the election vote (that the EU want '50 billion quid payment' sorted before moving onto trade deals).  Logic seems to be that this will strengthen her position against that. I'm not sure that it alters that process at all to be honest. So I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_. The thing about having a chance to kick labour when they are down doesn't ring true either - she knew she could have beaten corbyn at any point between now and the things in the book of revelations coming to pass.
> 
> It's a minor point and I'm sure we'll hear somebody like Michael Crick giving us some equally breathless account of the 'why now' question on newsnight.


Because only now can the lib-dems take seats off labour on the basis of brexit. Not after.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Heard some bbc bod breathlessly saying it was the way the negotiations are going that pushed May into calling for the election vote (that the EU want '50 billion quid payment' sorted before moving onto trade deals).  Logic seems to be that this will strengthen her position against that. I'm not sure that it alters that process at all to be honest. So I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_. The thing about having a chance to kick labour when they are down doesn't ring true either - she knew she could have beaten corbyn at any point between now and the things in the book of revelations coming to pass.
> 
> It's a minor point and I'm sure we'll hear somebody like Michael Crick giving us some equally breathless account of the 'why now' question on newsnight.



As if by magic, Crick has been doing just that. He has been pointing out how the electoral commission or whoever it is involved in the GE15 election expenses investigation were due to do something or another in May.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> So I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_. The thing about having a chance to kick labour when they are down doesn't ring true either - she knew she could have beaten corbyn at any point between now and the things in the book of revelations coming to pass.



It might be more to do with the potential problems of a divided tory party combined with an anaemic majority. 

Could also be a desire not to have to run an election in the almost certainly catastrophic fallout of march 2019. It's probably sinking in about now just how much trouble the UK has got itself in.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Haven't quite got my head round how this all plays for Scotland/indie2. Tory majority and 'hard brexit' victory helps sturgeon?


Practically Brexit makes things much more complicated for an independent Scotland but these things are more about gut level reactions. A more repellent Tory dominated Westminster can't be bad for folk pushing Scottish secession and my it's going to be a pompously braying neoliberal stinker once they've Hard Brexited out onto the high seas of globalised commerce.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_.



You can turn it on it's head and ask why _wouldn't_ she call it now?

There's no real downside and potentially a lot to gain.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

On UK Political Info State of the parties in the Opinion Polls

Well the numbers look auspicious for the Tories: 43% +18 points on sadly sagging Labour and the rest in the tank at 11%. Though I might be better ruminating on bird signs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Heard some bbc bod breathlessly saying it was the way the negotiations are going that pushed May into calling for the election vote (that the EU want '50 billion quid payment' sorted before moving onto trade deals).  Logic seems to be that this will strengthen her position against that. I'm not sure that it alters that process at all to be honest. So I'm still not really clear why she called it _now_. The thing about having a chance to kick labour when they are down doesn't ring true either - she knew she could have beaten corbyn at any point between now and the things in the book of revelations coming to pass.
> 
> It's a minor point and I'm sure we'll hear somebody like Michael Crick giving us some equally breathless account of the 'why now' question on newsnight.



Don't agree about her having the confidence she would beat Corbyn whenever. Things change, and a shit brexit could make May very unpopular very quickly. 

I would also doubt this will make a blind bit of difference to EU negotiations. Why should the rest of the EU give a shit that she's just won an election? _Woopdeedo bully for you. 
_
PMs only ever call elections early for one reason and that reason only - they think they'll win now but may not win later.


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 18, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> _
> _
> PMs only ever call elections early for one reason and that reason only - they think they'll win now but may not win later.


A plan that totally never fails


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

rutabowa said:


> A plan that totally never fails



If they do somehow lose this I reckon I'll laugh myself to actual death.


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> If they do somehow lose this I reckon I'll laugh myself to actual death.


Let's just allow ourselves 30 seconds a day to imagine this


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

rutabowa said:


> Let's just allow ourselves 30 seconds a day to imagine this



Wait, tory defeat or my death?


----------



## sim667 (Apr 18, 2017)

Well Fiona Bruce (politician) has changed her website, and seems to certainly be offering a lot to her constituents

(WARNING: NSFW)


Spoiler



The former URL of a Conservative MP looks a bit different now. [NSFW]


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 18, 2017)

rutabowa said:


> Let's just allow ourselves 30 seconds a day to imagine this



Trump was being trounced in the polls three months out from the election. 

(I don't think something similar will happen here. But it may not be the absolute humping the media is reckoning on and it's enjoyable to dream)


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Because only now can the lib-dems take seats off labour on the basis of brexit. Not after.


Rochdale will be interesting: danczuk v labour v pissyellow.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Apr 18, 2017)

A long held ambition of mine is to revive Altern-8's "Hardcore U Know The Score Party" which unfortunately lost out to the Tories in the 1992 GE in the Stoke constituency.

I'd need a gofundme campaign to raise the deposit though. Anyone game to donate?


----------



## hash tag (Apr 18, 2017)

Just why? Can anyone answer Brenda. Views from Bristol after snap election announcement - BBC News


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

happie chappie said:


> You can turn it on it's head and ask why _wouldn't_ she call it now?
> 
> There's no real downside and potentially a lot to gain.


Yeah, I didn't really phrase that very well. The chance to fuck labour over to a massive degree has been there for a year or more, but she hasn't taken it. I was just musing on what was the final bit in the jigsaw with regard to this decision - whether it really was anything to do with strengthening her hand in the negotiations.  If she does think that, she's probably wrong.  As others have said, there's no reason at all that an increased tory majority would lead to Brussels saying 'oh, right, we'll let you off the £50 billion'.

Edit: and holding an election also gives EU bods a chance to detonate the odd hand grenade into the campaign.  It's win win for her in the sense that everything is win win domestically, but might not be vis a vis Brussels.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> A long held ambition of mine is to revive Altern-8's "Hardcore U Know The Score Party" which unfortunately lost out to the Tories in the 1992 GE in the Stoke constituency.
> 
> I'd need a gofundme campaign to raise the deposit though. Anyone game to donate?


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wait, tory defeat or my death?


We need all the live comrades we can keep.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

happie chappie said:


> You can turn it on it's head and ask why _wouldn't_ she call it now?
> 
> There's no real downside and potentially a lot to gain.


And the Germans are going into their electoral cycle which may not wind up till December.

I do wonder about the wisdom of May triggering A50 before she got her domestic ducks in a row. It may help her politically but a UK election on top means bugger all is going to happen with Brexit in Q2-3 2017. 13 days down they've got 497 working days to go. This isn't much time for a very complicated process of which the last 20% is probably devoted to getting sign-offs. They're potentially wasting maybe 12%-25%. Key resources are going to be occupied elsewhere. I'm not a great project manager but I'd likely be rearranging my milestones putting this thing on red.

Looks more like a crisis decision due to Tory unrest than a plan.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> And the Germans are going into their electoral cycle which may not wind up till December.
> 
> I do wonder about the wisdom of May triggering A50 before she got her domestic ducks in a row. It may help her politically but a UK election on top means bugger all is going to happen with Brexit in Q2-3 2017. 13 days down they've got 497 working days to go. This isn't much time for a very complicated process of which the last 20% is probably devoted to getting sign-offs. They're potentially wasting maybe 12%-25%. Key resources are going to be occupied elsewhere. I'm not a great project manager but I'd likely be rearranging my milestones putting this thing on red.
> 
> Looks more like a crisis decision due to Tory unrest than a plan.


Calling an election has bugger all to do with anything other than being in power for as long as possible. That _is_ the project.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Looks more like a crisis decision due to Tory unrest than a plan.


 Yes, though it might well backfire. Won't backfire in the sense of losing a majority or her strong position in the party, but it will certainly *complicate* things.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> As if by magic, Crick has been doing just that. He has been pointing out how the electoral commission or whoever it is involved in the GE15 election expenses investigation were due to do something or another in May.


I'll bet he 'scuttles' on Newsnight tonight. He does good scuttling.


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

I like the idea that this is an attempt by the ruling party to find a way out of hard brexiting (or meaningfully brexiting at all) by getting enough lib dems in. So that they (the yellows) can be blamed for not following the will of the people.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Rochdale will be interesting: danczuk v labour v pissyellow.



how the feck is Danczuk allowed to stand, the creepy cnut ? Embarassment to Labour, cld really do witha  strong indep. there


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

SNP unchanged. UKIP wiped out. Lib-Dems a damp squib. Labour hacked off at the knees. 

If anybody on here needs a new hip I'd get it while the NHS still exists.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

cantsin said:


> how the feck is Danczuk allowed to stand, the creepy cnut ? Embarassment to Labour, cld really do witha  strong indep. there


afaik he's still suspended so will, presumably, stand as an indie himself. Yuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> I like the idea that this is an attempt by the ruling party to find a way out of hard brexiting (or meaningfully brexiting at all) by getting enough lib dems in. So that they (the yellows) can be blamed for not following the will of the people.


As in you take it seriously or as in you laugh at it?


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> As in you take it seriously or as in you laugh at it?


Seriously, as much as I can. Is it so ridiculous?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Seriously, as much as I can. Is it so ridiculous?


Of course it is. Get off the internet. 

edit: Or get cleverer mates.


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

Easier said than done.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> SNP unchanged. UKIP wiped out. Lib-Dems a damp squib. Labour hacked off at the knees.
> 
> If anybody on here needs a new hip I'd get it while the NHS still exists.



What the fuck is wrong with people??


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

On Politico 7 takeaways on Britain’s snap election


> ...
> *1. Why now?*
> If she didn’t move now, May would have been bound in until at least 2019, according to senior Conservative MPs. Philip Hammond has been making the case for a snap poll behind closed doors, one close ally of the chancellor said.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> What the fuck is wrong with people??


I know. Douglas Carswell worked tirelessly for the people of Clacton.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Easier said than done.


It's OK, I'll be your friend.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> It's OK, I'll be your friend.


I'll be your huckleberry


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

bimble said:


> Easier said than done.


Pa's quite smart


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I know. Douglas Carswell worked tirelessly for the people of Clacton.


Where's the pier he promised them?


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I know. Douglas Carswell worked tirelessly for the people of Clacton.


He makes a fine quince jelly I hear.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Where's the pier he promised them?



The short one he was going to take a long walk on?


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 18, 2017)

It's also about getting through stuff like grammar schools, there aren't quite enough headcases in parliament for that one to fly at the moment.

That and things are already heading south for the country in terms of the metrics many people care about - big increases in the cost of food and fuel, housing market slowing down, rising petty crime, hospitals fucked  etc. Best get an election in before people cotton on to how shit things are under a Tory government.


----------



## happie chappie (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> On Politico 7 takeaways on Britain’s snap election



A larger majority also means May will no longer be liable to be held hostage by a small group of pro-Europe Tory MPs (as Major was by the Europhobes).

It’s already been reported that Central Office has been quietly culling “unsuitable” candidates for winnable marginals, ie pro-Europeans.

So in a roundabout way it does strengthen her negotiating hand with the EU and she’ll be free of domestic constraints regarding any foot dragging by opposition MPs (and even some in her own Party), awkward Parliamentary votes on any potential deal etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> He makes a fine quince jelly I hear.


Take him to Tiptree and see what sort of jam he's in then


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

happie chappie said:


> A larger majority also means May will no longer be liable to be held hostage by a small group of pro-Europe Tory MPs (as Major was by the Europhobes).
> 
> It’s already been reported that Central Office has been quietly culling “unsuitable” candidates for winnable marginals, ie pro-Europeans.
> 
> So in a roundabout way it does strengthen her negotiating hand with the EU and she’ll be free of domestic constraints regarding any foot dragging by opposition MPs (and even some in her own Party), awkward Parliamentary votes on any potential deal etc.


Culled for foot in mouth


----------



## chilango (Apr 18, 2017)

In short, fuck


----------



## Poi E (Apr 18, 2017)

sim667 said:


> Well Fiona Bruce (politician) has changed her website, and seems to certainly be offering a lot to her constituents
> 
> (WARNING: NSFW)
> 
> ...



Makes a change from them screwing us fnar fnar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

chilango said:


> In short, fuck


Aw, don't be like that - there'll be many years of fuckedness *after* June 8, why not have fun now while you can before our jadis launches us into an eternal winter in which it is never christmas


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

A nice hot summer for rioting will be the next thing on the cards.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 18, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> A nice hot summer for rioting will be the next thing on the cards.



It's fuckin' long overdue!


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 18, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> A nice hot summer for rioting will be the next thing on the cards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> A nice hot summer for rioting will be the next thing on the cards.


Like a summer with a thousand julys


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 18, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> A nice hot summer for rioting will be the next thing on the cards.



Yeah. Come the revolution, huh?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

RainbowTown said:


> Yeah. Come the revolution, huh?



Nah, more likely pissed off folk fed up of having to struggle to survive.
As always when this lot have a majority and mandate to squeeze those less fortunate.


----------



## Fingers (Apr 18, 2017)

How to stop the Tories

HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES


----------



## RainbowTown (Apr 18, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Nah, more likely pissed off folk fed up of having to struggle to survive.
> As always when this lot have a majority and mandate to squeeze those less fortunate.



Like I said in another thread, just the same old thing in brand new drag.

Still, horses for courses and all that.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 18, 2017)

Time will tell, as ever.


----------



## Teaboy (Apr 18, 2017)

Fingers said:


> How to stop the Tories
> 
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES



That'll go down well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> There is no chance that there would have been 12 byelections. Even one was unlikely. Biggest possible fallout would be a few campaign manager patsies thrown under the (battle) bus, maybe a couple of them even serving half a three month sentence, but all the MPs and senior party officials protected.



And because the universe has to prove me wrong every single time, there are now 'reoprts' from 'sources' that 24 sitting MP's are to be prosecuted for elecotral fraud. CPS has issued a statement saying precisely nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Fingers said:


> How to stop the Tories
> 
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES


I heard you the first time


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> And because the universe has to prove me wrong every single time, there are now 'reoprts' from 'sources' that 24 sitting MP's are to be prosecuted for elecotral fraud.


That's why it's now, or it would be goodbye majority


----------



## Dandred (Apr 18, 2017)

Wow! The Tory's are so unpopular they could never win. Again. Cunts.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> That's why it's now, or it would be goodbye majority



I'd like to think they'd never get away with such a shameless piece of gamesmanship, but who the fuck am I kidding? There's a good 25% of the population who would vote for the tory candidate even if he went on TV and set a box of kittens on fire.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'd like to think they'd never get away with such a shameless piece of gamesmanship, but who the fuck am I kidding? There's a good 25% of the population who would vote for the tory candidate even if he went on TV and set a box of kittens on fire.


As opposed to 20% who'd vote for her/him if they did nothing


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> SNP unchanged. UKIP wiped out. Lib-Dems a damp squib. Labour hacked off at the knees.
> 
> If anybody on here needs a new hip I'd get it while the NHS still exists.




Problem with these polls is they don't say where these votes are. Are Tory seats getting safer and picking up more votes? Or are all these new Tory voters in current Labour seats? The polling doesn't cover that, so it's not possible to translate it into won or lost seats.

I think that's possibly part of the problem with all the recent polling fuck-ups. They're not looking closely enough at the specifics and relating them to where votes are and who's doing the voting.

I mean, maybe the polling will be on point this time around and the good old Professor will save some face at last, but if recent trends are anything to go by the polls simply don't reflect the reality of what's going on.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> As opposed to 20% who'd vote for her/him if they did nothing



I do like it when we do these little one-twos you know


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

Fingers said:


> How to stop the Tories
> 
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES


Eugh


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

> Kate is pro Brexit. This constituency voted 78% to Remain. Possible Lib Dem surge


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Fingers said:


> How to stop the Tories
> 
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES



2010 called, they want their stupid idea back.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

I wonder if anyone at Tory HQ has remembered that they haven't actually finished gerrymandering the constituency boundaries yet and that their plan for eternal domination of British politics might go off half-cocked as a result.


----------



## Beetlebum (Apr 18, 2017)

Dandred said:


> Wow! The Tory's are so unpopular they could never win. Again. Cunts.


And you are basing that on what?

Do you have access to some data the major pollsters and the betting markets don't?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wonder if anyone at Tory HQ has remembered that they haven't actually finished gerrymandering the constituency boundaries yet and that their plan for eternal domination of British politics might go off half-cocked as a result.



Looks like that was being kicked into the long grass anyway.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> I wonder if anyone at Tory HQ has remembered that they haven't actually finished gerrymandering the constituency boundaries yet and that their plan for eternal domination of British politics might go off half-cocked as a result.



Never saw that as viable with a majority of 12 anyway


----------



## 1%er (Apr 18, 2017)

Smart move by the Tory's, if the polls are right they could have a majority of over 100 seats and some breathing space after Brexit as no need for an election in 2020.

Any Tory MPs among the 30 people the CPS are "thinking of charging" over the election expenses (over spending), just heard something on the radio but no detail other than "30 people CPS thinking of charging".

Found a link now any charges will be laid before June 8


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> SNP unchanged. UKIP wiped out. Lib-Dems a damp squib. Labour hacked off at the knees.
> 
> If anybody on here needs a new hip I'd get it while the NHS still exists.




UKIP has lost its only seat already.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

happie chappie said:


> A larger majority also means May will no longer be liable to be held hostage by a small group of pro-Europe Tory MPs (as Major was by the Europhobes).
> 
> It’s already been reported that Central Office has been quietly culling “unsuitable” candidates for winnable marginals, ie pro-Europeans.
> 
> So in a roundabout way it does strengthen her negotiating hand with the EU and she’ll be free of domestic constraints regarding any foot dragging by opposition MPs (and even some in her own Party), awkward Parliamentary votes on any potential deal etc.



The unsuitables could equally the hardcore Brexiters.   But will be very enlightening to go through the tweets of the Tory PPC's for this lot, though having given it a go will be easier to search once they stop being "prospective"


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> UKIP has lost its only seat already.



And is only going to stand in targeted seats.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> And is only going to stand in targeted seats.


Cue lost deposits


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

1%er said:


> Smart move by the Tory's, if the polls are right they could have a majority of over 100 seats and some breathing space after Brexit as no need for an election in 2020.
> 
> Any Tory MPs among the 30 people the CPS are "thinking of charging" over the election expenses (over spending), just heard something on the radio but no detail other than "30 people CPS thinking of charging".



One would imagine it would be the 14 candidates, their election agents and presumably a couple of people at CCHQ who oversaw it all (Clarke maybe?) if they are looking at a conspiracy around deliberately breaching electoral spending.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 18, 2017)

Farron on ch news hinting a second ref is their goal.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Cue lost deposits



Doing that coz they is skint anyway.  But less seats they stand in, less requirement for media coverage.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Cue lost deposits



That will remind Nuttall of the time he discovered Potosí, but was cheated out of it by those despicable Spaniards.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Farron on ch news hinting a second ref is their goal.


such fun!


----------



## 1%er (Apr 18, 2017)

agricola said:


> One would imagine it would be the 14 candidates, their election agents and presumably a couple of people at CCHQ who oversaw it all (Clarke maybe?) if they are looking at a conspiracy around deliberately breaching electoral spending.


Just found a link and added to my post above, it names some constituencies and says charges will be made before election June 8


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

1%er said:


> Just found a link and added to my post above, it names some constituencies and says charges will be made before election June 8



Counties rather than constituency's.

 Could spell the end of the battle bus.


----------



## 1%er (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> Counties rather than constituency's.
> 
> Could spell the end of the battle bus.


Oh right, I'm the other side of the globe so didn't know that 

I wonder if May was aware of this before she made the announcement, I also heard that Central Office are going to put candidates in-place in some constituency's (but I think the person who said that mentioned that is not unusual)


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

More confused as to why its the MPs facing prosecution?....Thought its the agent who signs off on the the election expenses.


----------



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's also about getting through stuff like grammar schools, there aren't quite enough headcases in parliament for that one to fly at the moment.
> 
> That and things are already heading south for the country in terms of the metrics many people care about - big increases in the cost of food and fuel, housing market slowing down, rising petty crime, hospitals fucked  etc. Best get an election in before people cotton on to how shit things are under a Tory government.



Food costs are really rising, especially dairy, etc.


----------



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> And is only going to stand in targeted seats.



Banks is to stand against Carswell, indy vs indy


----------



## 1%er (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> More confused as to why its the MPs facing prosecution?....Thought its the agent who signs off on the the election expenses.


That's why I asked if it would effect MP's (the link seems to say it does)

Have a GE instead of loads of by-elections while your party is in front in the polls, iirc the Tory's have a majority of 12 so this could have done them a lot of harm.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> More confused as to why its the MPs facing prosecution?....Thought its the agent who signs off on the the election expenses.



That is why I think you'd have to charge the agent as well as the MP, at least if you were seeking to prove a conspiracy - though that assumes of course that they aren't arguing that this was all done completely off the books and kept away from the agent and the "official" campaign.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Farron on ch news hinting a second ref is their goal.


CH? Confoederatio helvetica? On Swiss news?


----------



## treelover (Apr 18, 2017)

> * Labour MPs expected to urge Corbyn to reconsider decision to back election *
> Labour leader welcomes move but many MPs are worried by his poor standing with voters and the lack of a manifesto
> 
> Labour MPs expected to urge Corbyn to reconsider decision to back election


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

treelover but what do you think?


----------



## Corax (Apr 18, 2017)

gosub said:


> Counties rather than constituency's.
> 
> Could spell the end of the battle bus.


They'll each have locally-declared Battle Minivans instead.


----------



## agricola (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> CH? Confoederatio helvetica? On Swiss news?



It would be an appropriate place for a yellow object that is full of holes, I suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Corax said:


> They'll each have locally-declared Battle Minivans instead.


Skirmish Robin reliants


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Skirmish Robin reliants


As long as there's a pink one for the wimmin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 18, 2017)

Sue said:


> As long as there's a pink one for the wimmin.


You can already picture the lib dem one, bought from some small traders in peckham


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

OK, so...I've been out all day...so am trying to play catch up here.

Have I got this right? May is inviting all those 'left behinds'. 'dispossessed' and 'anti-elite' Leave voters to back the tory party?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> OK, so...I've been out all day...so am trying to play catch up here.
> 
> Have I got this right? May is inviting all those 'left behinds'. 'dispossessed' and 'anti-elite' Leave voters to back the tory party?


no


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> OK, so...I've been out all day...so am trying to play catch up here.
> 
> Have I got this right? May is inviting all those 'left behinds'. 'dispossessed' and 'anti-elite' Leave voters to back the tory party?



She's been reluctantly forced to call a General Election due to other people playing politics. It's for the good of the country.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 18, 2017)

Perhaps she should have waited to trigger article 50 until after this election. As it is she is taking up EU negotiating time with domestic politics.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> no


No, she's not inviting Leavers to translate that into a vote for the tory party?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

Sue said:


> She's been reluctantly forced to call a General Election due to other people playing politics. It's for the good of the country.


That's what she said?


----------



## Sue (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> That's what she said?


Along those lines, yes.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

Channel 4 news now running with: "CPS considering charges against 30 people, incuding MP's" 

The CPS has until, well would you look at that, early June to make a decision.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> No, she's not inviting Leavers to translate that into a vote for the tory party?


Come on - even you now?


----------



## Dogsauce (Apr 18, 2017)

I don't think I can bear to endure the press and BBC playing along with the 'tories being the party of the working man' bollocks that some PR spiv came up with a while ago. Fuck this shit.


----------



## Smangus (Apr 18, 2017)

Shame Corbyn won't tell her to stick it up her arse and instruct Labour to vote against the move. That would leave her on a 12 "lets do a U turn then" majority for the rest of the term, that would fuck em up.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Come on - even you now?


You don't believe that's her strategy?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

Smangus said:


> Shame Corbyn won't tell her to stick it up her arse and *instruct Labour to vote against the move*. That would leave her on a 12 "lets do a U turn then" majority for the rest of the term, that would fuck em up.



There's why he can't.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

1)'left behinds'. 'dispossessed' and 'anti-elite'

2) leavers

1=2

The sneery crossover.  As if the stuff in 1) didn't count. And May made no bid for it anyway.


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Perhaps she should have waited to trigger article 50 until after this election. As it is she is taking up EU negotiating time with domestic politics.



No she had to wait until after Art 50 to see off one flank, and not much negotiating is going to happen til after the German elections


----------



## gosub (Apr 18, 2017)




----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> 1)'left behinds'. 'dispossessed' and 'anti-elite'
> 
> 2) leavers
> 
> ...


This is all about May making a bid for a massive chunk of the leave vote that falls beyond their traditional core. Apols if it came over sneery; not my intent. The inverted commas were an attempt to represent the words applied to the leave vote by many commentators. I suppose the GE will test the extent to which the leave vote really did represent 'anti(political)-elite' sentiment.


----------



## bimble (Apr 18, 2017)

Katie Hopkins in the DM: 
"June 8th is your day. Your day to vote Leave. Your day to vote for the Tory party - even if it is for the first time. .Support the party of optimism, certain of our ability to succeed as a proud country on the world stage..The 52%. The Brave Brexiteers". etc.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

BBC are already all over this like a rash...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> This is all about May making a bid for a massive chunk of the leave vote that falls beyond their traditional core. Apols if it came over sneery; not my intent. The inverted commas were an attempt to represent the words applied to the leave vote by many commentators. I suppose the GE will test the extent to which the leave vote really did represent 'anti(political)-elite' sentiment.


Forget that, no worries,

It's about them lib-dem dogs eating labour seats forevermore, not tory dogs getting bigger.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> BBC are already all over this like a rash...




Lots of similar bollocks on the radio too. Depressing.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of similar bollocks on the radio too. Depressing.


It is 8 weeks?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

Kuenssburg just asked, rhetorically, 'did she surprise even herself?'

She really is a fucking idiot.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Apr 18, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Kuenssburg just asked, rhetorically, 'did she surprise even herself?'
> 
> She really is a fucking idiot.



TBF, she was first to tweet that it was gonna be a GE along with the correct date. Before that we were predicting brain tumours, dead royals and war with Spain


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 18, 2017)

Nine Bob Note said:


> TBF, she was first to tweet that it was gonna be a GE along with the correct date. Before that we were predicting brain tumours, dead royals and war with Spain



Idiot savant maybe, then. Possibly politicians are more likely to give her the gen because they think she's a fucking idiot too, and therefore not much of a threat.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

Smangus said:


> Shame Corbyn won't tell her to stick it up her arse and instruct Labour to vote against the move. That would leave her on a 12 "lets do a U turn then" majority for the rest of the term, that would fuck em up.



Have you thought through the longer term implications of the official opposition not wanting an election or to form the next Government??


----------



## Smangus (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Have you thought through the longer term implications of the official opposition not wanting an election or to form the next Government??



 they won't form the next gvt anyway


----------



## panpete (Apr 18, 2017)

I haven't read all this thread but I think toreis will get in again as the media dont portray labour in a true light. i might be wrong, just my gut instinct. UKIP might do a bit better also.
What with Trump over the atlantic and the world generally turning all right wing and divisive, I cannot see labour getting in, although I want them to. I knwo the country are worried about the NHS but somehow, the tories got in last time, god knows how, but I just get a feeling they will get in again.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Have you thought through the longer term implications of the official opposition not wanting an election or to form the next Government??



I don't think it's very obvious what the longer-term implications would be.

Otoh, May wants an election because she has worked out that she's fucked otherwise. Seems to me the obvious thing to do is let her be fucked.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 18, 2017)

brogdale said:


> BBC are already all over this like a rash...




I'm still young enough to continue to be stunned by the stupidity of the people in england.


----------



## panpete (Apr 18, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> I'm still young enough to continue to be stunned by the stupidity of the people in england.


 oh dear


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> I'm still young enough to continue to be stunned by the stupidity of the people in england.



Replace 'young' with 'offensively stupid'


----------



## JTG (Apr 18, 2017)

The number of acquaintances of mine queuing up to declare for the Lib Dems is incredible. Fucking hell, I give up


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Replace 'young' with 'offensively stupid'



Hmmm. Someone is voting for Theresa May because she is patriotic and I'm offensively stupid. Right.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> I'm still young enough to continue to be stunned by the stupidity of the people in england.



_The people the BBC choose to put on TV as representative of the general public mood.
_
There was a bloke on 5 live frothing about how the only thing that mattered was leaving the EU. I mean, that's just demonstrably wrong. Fair enough if you think the EU thing is an important issue, one way or the other, but the _only thing that matters? _What do we do once we've left the EU then, just give up? Close the schools and hospitals and train lines and power stations and factories and just wait for death, safe in the knowledge that our work on this Earth is now complete?

OK, the BBC has to present a range of opinions. But they shouldn't be presenting the opinions of people whose opinions make zero sense, or people who can on the evidence of a thirty second vox pop be diagnosed as clinically insane. The BBC has chosen its narrative, this is the Brexit election and there are no other factors involved, and that's what they're going to be shoving down our throats until it becomes true. The fact that this narrative looks a lot like May's is pure coincidence I'm sure.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> _The people the BBC choose to put on TV as representative of the general public mood.
> _
> There was a bloke on 5 live frothing about how the only thing that mattered was leaving the EU. I mean, that's just demonstrably wrong. Fair enough if you think the EU thing is an important issue, one way or the other, but the _only thing that matters? _What do we do once we've left the EU then, just give up? Close the schools and hospitals and train lines and power stations and factories and just wait for death, safe in the knowledge that our work on this Earth is now complete?
> 
> OK, the BBC has to present a range of opinions. But they shouldn't be presenting the opinions of people whose opinions make zero sense, or people who can on the evidence of a thirty second vox pop be diagnosed as clinically insane. The BBC has chosen its narrative, this is the Brexit election and there are no other factors involved, and that's what they're going to be shoving down our throats until it becomes true. The fact that this narrative looks a lot like May's is pure coincidence I'm sure.



Nearly everyone's political opinions make zero sense sadly. Its also true that there the majority of people in england are so thick as to almost be brain dead.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I don't think it's very obvious what the longer-term implications would be.
> 
> Otoh, May wants an election because she has worked out that she's fucked otherwise. Seems to me the obvious thing to do is let her be



Here are a few:

1. In addition to his other perceived faults corbyn would be relentlessly hammered from tomorrow until 2020 for cowardice and bottling. 
2. It would unite the Tories to force through Brexit against the common enemy. 
3. Labour would be painted as blocking Brexit and the democratic will of voters many of whom are located in their core seats.
4. Labour MPs would break the line dividing them further.
5. The 'democratic deficit' argument shifts decisively to Labour and at a stroke frees May


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 18, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Nearly everyone's political opinions make zero sense sadly. Its also true that there the majority of people in england are so thick as to almost be brain dead.



A winning slogan.


----------



## killer b (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A winning slogan.


Pretty much the slogan I've seen some dickheads sharing on fb today.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 18, 2017)

B.I.G said:


> Nearly everyone's political opinions make zero sense sadly. Its also true that there the majority of people in england are so thick as to almost be brain dead.



Sometimes I feel the same way, then I remember that I've been staring at the internet too long and not interacting with real people; the vast majority of whom have some kind of sense, some kind of morality and some kind of awareness of how the world works. Misinformation is a bigger problem than outright stupidity.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 18, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Sometimes I feel the same way, then I remember that I've been staring at the internet too long and not interacting with real people; the vast majority of whom have some kind of sense, some kind of morality and some kind of awareness of how the world works. Misinformation is a bigger problem than outright stupidity.



Fair point.


----------



## B.I.G (Apr 18, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> A winning slogan.



Just turn it into policies and bang - another tory government.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

Fingers said:


> How to stop the Tories
> 
> HOW TO VOTE TO STOP THE TORIES


So you're arguing for a LibDem vote?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

Just in case you needed any reminding of his cuntishness...

Tony Blair could work alongside Lib Dems in anti-Brexit election campaign




			
				Indie said:
			
		

> Former Prime Minister Tony Blair has said voters should pick candidates from whichever party is prepared to hold Theresa May's Government to account over Brexit.
> 
> He said "unique circumstances demand a unique response" and that "this should cross party lines", with many speculating he will campaign alongside the Liberal Democrats ahead of the June 8 vote.
> 
> According to _The Telegraph_, Senior Liberal Democrats have "confirmed" Mr Blair "could" join forces with Lib Dem leader Tim Farron to campaign against Brexit at the 2017 general election.



The Telegraph piece quoted...



			
				Telegraph said:
			
		

> Former Labour leader Tony Blair has urged voters to back candidates from any party which opposes Brexit amid speculation that he will campaign with the Liberal Demcorats at the election.
> 
> In an unprecedented 1,200 word statement last night, Mr Blair urged voters to pressure candidates to commit to holding “the Government properly to account in the interests of the country. This should cross party lines”.
> 
> ...


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Just in case you needed any reminding of his cuntishness...



As if anyone needed reminding of his _existence_. Guardian was falling over itself to get his opinion yesterday too. Why are the newspapers under the impression that anyone gives a flying fuck what Blair thinks?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of similar bollocks on the radio too. Depressing.


**Breaking**
BBC R4 'Today' programme finds _the_ "northern working-class person" who intends to vote Labour.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

People do care what Blair thinks, if only as weathervane to indicate which way to run away... The lib dems would be foolish to accept his help.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

May live on R4; christ alive she's crap on her feet...even tory sycophant Robinson  is tripping her up.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

I don't think I've ever heard or seen so much side swinging before - _I've always voted Labour and going Lib Dem this time_, _I've always voted Tory and going Lib Dem this time_, _I've always voted Lib Dem and going Tory this time_, _I've always voted Labour and going Tory this time_.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2017)

Martin does raise the issue of What Next if Labour collapse at this election...will it trigger some form of spontaneous new movement(s)?



The more I think about it the more I see the Brexit process as having created a sort of limbo. I remember a while back someone describing us in a state of having a government of national unity, and although going too far there is something in that...all dissent is seen as "sabotage" in light of Brexit. The mood is one of lockdown until the process passes.



brogdale said:


> May live on R4; christ alive she's crap on her feet...even tory sycophant Robinson  is tripping her up.


For that reason im not surprised she doesnt want to do TV debates , though I wonder how much mileage other parties will get out of that. She's playing the superior Im Too Busy and Important Doing Brexit card, and Frankly Who Cares What Those Other Parties Think - They're Shit. Its massively arrogant (but many people seem to respond well to her arrogance). There's definitely room to exploit her on that...


stethoscope said:


> I don't think I've ever heard or seen so much side swinging before - _I've always voted Labour and going Lib Dems this time_, _I've always voted Tory and going Labour this time_, _I've always voted Lib Dem and going Tory this time_, _I've always voted Labour and going Tory this time_.


Except no one swinging to Labour that I can see...


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

I will probably vote LibDems in June. Not a fan of them or Farron, but  Labour have been a shambles for too long for me to take seriously.

Not that it will matter of course, as I live in one the safest Tory seats in the country, an area which voted massively to Leave.

Hopefully Corbyn will throw in the towel after June, and someone half competent can take over.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

ska invita said:


> Except no one swinging to Labour that I can see...



Why would they? Labour don't offer anything. Not really beyond platitudes. They've not even come out particularly strong to exploit any perceived weakness of May calling the election. Labour colleagues and supporters in the media can't even wait to do the _Corbyn not being up to it_ schtick. I think she's far from calm and being shrewd as some commentators make out and there was the potential to attack on those lines. But that won't happen. Besides, capital and class interests will ensure the election is made _all about the EU_, cheered on by plenty of supposed socialists too. Lib Dems will be as opportunistic as always and that's looking like it's already gaining traction (Labour moderates, even Green's talking about working together to stop any exit from the EU, but not to stop the Tories per se). Working class get fucked as always.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Why would they? Labour don't offer anything. Not really beyond platitudes. They've not even come out particularly strong to exploit any perceived weakness of May calling the election. Labour colleagues and supporters in the media can't even wait to do the _Corbyn not being up to it_ schtick. I think she's far from calm and being shrewd as some commentators make out and there was the potential to attack on those lines. But that won't happen. Besides, capital and class interests will ensure the election is made _all about the EU_, cheered on by plenty of supposed socialists too. Lib Dems will be as opportunistic as always and that's looking like it's already gaining traction (Labour moderates, even Green's talking about working together to stop any exit from the EU, but not to stop the Tories per se). Working class get fucked as always.


Execsum: business as usual


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I will probably vote LibDems in June. Not a fan of them or Farron, but  Labour have been a shambles for too long for me to take seriously.
> 
> Not that it will matter of course, as I live in one the safest Tory seats in the country, an area which voted massively to Leave.
> 
> Hopefully Corbyn will throw in the towel after June, and someone half competent can take over.


Yeh. Cos that will really make a difference, as the pm will still be an incompetent muppet surrounded by a cabinet of incompetent muppets


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Why would they? Labour don't offer anything. Not really beyond platitudes. They've not even come out particularly strong to exploit any perceived weakness of May calling the election. Labour colleagues and supporters in the media can't even wait to do the _Corbyn not being up to it_ schtick. I think she's far from calm and being shrewd as some commentators make out and there was the potential to attack on those lines. But that won't happen. *Besides, capital and class interests will ensure the election is made all about the EU, cheered on by plenty of supposed socialists too.* Lib Dems will be as opportunistic as always and that's looking like it's already gaining traction (Labour moderates, even Green's talking about working together to stop any exit from the EU, but not to stop the Tories per se). Working class get fucked as always.



Yes, quite obviously the tories have set the parameters of the campaign from the outset:-


> Every vote for the Conservatives will make it harder for opposition politicians who want to stop me from getting the job done. Every vote for the Conservatives will make me stronger when I negotiate for Britain with the prime ministers, presidents and chancellors of the EU. Every vote for the Conservatives will mean we can stick to our plan for a stronger Britain and take the right long-term decisions for a more secure future.


On the basis of that crude & simplistic call to patriotism the tories will rack up a large commons majority to take them through to May 2022. Time for them to exploit Brexit's fundamentalist neoliberal potential to the full.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. Cos that will really make a difference, as the pm will still be an incompetent muppet surrounded by a cabinet of incompetent muppets



you think my vote can make a difference


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> you think my vote can make a difference



If it doesn't make a difference why vote Lib Dem? Why vote at all?


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Why would they?


 quite... Just your post suggested some were.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> you think my vote can make a difference


No, I don't. I was responding - as was clear - to the bit about Corbyn chucking in the towel. However, voting lib dem does make *you* something of a muppet.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

ska invita said:


> quite... Just your post suggested some were.



Ah I see now - I corrected my post just as you quoted it.

Anyway, can political things please stop happening and pulling me back in here to post!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 19, 2017)

POLL: Who do you want to be the next Prime Minister?

Spam that fucking poll, lets take back control of fake news.

61% Corbyn so far


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Yes, quite obviously the tories have set the parameters of the campaign from the outset:-
> ​On the basis of that crude & simplistic call to patriotism the tories will rack up a large commons majority to take them through to May 2022. Time for them to exploit Brexit's fundamentalist neoliberal potential to the full.



But I was assured on this board that voting to leave would be a spanner in the works.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> No, I don't. I was responding - as was clear - to the bit about Corbyn chucking in the towel.



Oh, you we're pointing out the blindingly obvious . . . Keep up the good work 




Pickman's model said:


> However, voting lib dem does make *you* something of a muppet.



Ouch, such a stinging insult . . .


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> But I was assured on this board that voting to leave would be a spanner in the works.


Not by me, you weren't.
I consistently argued that the EU referendum offered the electorate a "choice" between 2 differing interpretations of the future course of neoliberalism.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> If it doesn't make a difference why vote........  at all?



Habit?

We can't all be fortunate enough to live in a contestable seat, but people should still vote


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> But I was assured on this board that voting to leave would be a spanner in the works.



It clearly is putting some spanner in the works if we're having a general election 

Besides, what was actually argued by most of us left leavers was that the referendum on its terms was on the whole a shit choice either way, but that leave offered if only some leverage to battle the status quo and gain concessions from capital. Whereas remain basically locks us in tighter.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Habit?
> 
> We can't all be fortunate enough to live in a contestable seat, but people should still vote



I'm not in a contestable seat. So why shift to the Shit Dems?


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> It clearly is putting some spanner in the works if we're having a general election
> 
> Besides, what was actually argued by most of us left leavers was that the referendum on its terms was on the whole a shit choice either way, but that leave offered if only some leverage to battle the status quo and gain concessions from capital. Whereas remain basically locks us in tighter.



How's that going?


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> I'm not in a contestable seat. So why shift to the Shit Dems?



Because they at least have a consistent position on Europe and Brexit, which is the most important issue at this election (for me). I think Labour have made a mess of the whole thing, and have done practically nothing to slow down or amend a Tory Brexit.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> How's that going?



Well, it's still looking marginally better than being a defeatist, shift Labour back to the right and place our all our hopes in the EU, liberal.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 19, 2017)

Supposedly the shadow cabinet were expecting this, have plans, and clearly are jumping at the chance of having this election.Which begs the question Why?

The only reason I can think of is that they think an election creates a temporarily slightly more level playing field from which they can get their message across. May not doing tv debates is a bit of a blow on that front but maybe they can turn her absence to their advantage.

at the moment it looks like they're outmaneuvered from the start, but for Labour not to collapse they really need to reframe the whole election. I don't think they've got it in them... The shadow of Brexit looms too large.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Because they at least have a consistent position on Europe and Brexit, which is the most important issue at this election (for me). I think Labour have made a mess of the whole thing, and have done practically nothing to slow down or amend a Tory Brexit.



Social housing? Working class conditions? Public services? Are these important to you in the election?


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Well, it's still looking marginally better than being a defeatist, shift Labour back to the right, liberal.



Well you draw some comfort with that whilst you ponder how tightly a hard Brexit locks us in, when every shitty trade deal, every loss of regulation and workers rights is thundered through as being in the national interest.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 19, 2017)

The Liberal Democrats are never the answer, unless the question is "Why is everything so shitty?"


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

ska invita said:


> at the moment it looks like they're outmaneuvered from the start



The right party of capital have played a blinder, haven't they?
Given the context of that "gut-wrenching" referendum defeat, their current electoral dominance will surely be regarded as a future political studies case study in 'threat as opportunity'.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

Meh. Can't be arsed with Labour moderates.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Social housing? Working class conditions? Public services? Are these important to you in the election?



Not as important right now, no. Those issues will crop up in every election, but Brexit will only happen once. And once its done, its done. We can't go back and renegotiate because we got a shit deal (well we could, but we'd be in a weaker position than we are now). This election is about Brexit, and the Lib Dems (+SNP) are more closely aligned to my position than Labour are


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Not as important right now, no. Those issues will crop up in every election, but Brexit will only happen once. And once its done, its done. We can't go back and renegotiate because we got a shit deal (well we could, but we'd be in a weaker position than we are now). This election is about Brexit, and the Lib Dems (+SNP) are more closely aligned to my position than Labour are



And there we have it. The liberal position that will be fought in this election.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Meh. Can't be arsed with Labour moderates.



Crowd pleasing, but little else.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> But I was assured on this board that voting to leave would be a spanner in the works.


You think the eu isn't teetering? That it's not been forced to change?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Lib dem remain voters saying 'Martin'


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You think the eu isn't teetering? That it's not been forced to change?



It's possible it may, but I don't believe this was the only way to effect change. But what change do you think will actually happen?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> It's possible it may, but I don't believe this was the only way to effect change. But what change do you think will actually happen?


Could you outline other ways that the eu has been forced to change? How change has come about with it being democratically unaccountable and subject only to internal elite pressure? What will happen is a short term easing of the aggressive austerity measures on southern Europe and an increased ability of the less powerful states to threaten the centre.

Anyway, I thought Boris Johnson was nailed on prime minister by now?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> But I was assured on this board that voting to leave would be a spanner in the works.



The EU is one election away from collapse, it only has to happen once.

Three of the top five candidates in France want re-negotiations with significant concessions or they will hold a referendum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Ouch, such a stinging insult . . .


yeh well it wasn't meant to be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Because they at least have a consistent position on Europe and Brexit, which is the most important issue at this election (for me).


surprised than post-2010 anyone would believe any of their core promises.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 19, 2017)

I really should be used to it, but my jaw did slightly drop when I saw the Mail front page


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

gawkrodger said:


> I really should be used to it, but my jaw did slightly drop when I saw the Mail front page



When I saw that I thought to myself 'I wish it was us, and our newspapers, writing that about them'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

if may ever abandons politics she would be a proper shoe-in to play jadis in any new production of 'the lion, the witch and the wardrobe' or 'the magician's nephew'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> This election is about Brexit, and the Lib Dems (+SNP) are more closely aligned to my position than Labour are



This election is about who is gonna run the country. The one about brexit was last year.

Do try and keep up folks.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

what times the vote?


----------



## Smangus (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 104707
> if may ever abandons politics she would be a proper shoe-in to play jadis in any new production of 'the lion, the witch and the wardrobe' or 'the magician's nephew'.




 The election is the dead eyed witch vs Dumbledore


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

Smangus said:


> The election is the dead eyed witch vs Dumbledore



No, JK Rowling has specifically told us that Jeremy Corbyn is all the bad characters in Harry Potter


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I will probably vote LibDems in June. Not a fan of them or Farron, but  Labour have been a shambles for too long for me to take seriously.
> 
> Not that it will matter of course, as I live in one the safest Tory seats in the country, an area which voted massively to Leave.
> 
> Hopefully Corbyn will throw in the towel after June, and someone half competent can take over.


Right one for the list.



WellRounded said:


> Because they at least have a consistent position on Europe and Brexit, which is the most important issue at this election (for me). I think Labour have made a mess of the whole thing, and have done practically nothing to slow down or amend a Tory Brexit.


Hey never mind all the attacks on the poorest, the increased inequality and the taking from the poor and giving to the rich - at least they are consistent on Europe! FFS.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 19, 2017)

Lol


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> When I saw that I thought to myself 'I wish it was us, and our newspapers, writing that about them'


Or the title of the best Clash album never to have been created.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 19, 2017)

gawkrodger said:


> I really should be used to it, but my jaw did slightly drop when I saw the Mail front page



I assume they are unaware that they are quoting Lenin?

How the Soviet Union is Governed


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> surprised than post-2010 anyone would believe any of their core promises.



I trust them on the EU and Brexit. Do you think they will break their promises on that front?



SpookyFrank said:


> This election is about who is gonna run the country. The one about brexit was last year
> .



Run the country through the Brexit negotiations . . .



redsquirrel said:


> Right one for the list
> .



What list?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Lol




Presumably with less ease than Dan Hodges says 'I vote Tory now'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I trust them on the EU and Brexit. Do you think they will break their promises on that front?


i don't think it matters one way or another as they are both ineffectual and inconsequential. it's not like they'll hold the balance of power on 9 june or any day thereafter for that matter. i simply find it curious that you should say you'll vote for a party with sorry record on keeping their word on core policies.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> What list?


List of yellow Tory scum to be liquidated come the revolution.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Run the country through the Brexit negotiations . . .



Governments also have other stuff to do you know. Foreign policy, the economy, jobs, education, healthcare...


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I trust them on the EU and Brexit. Do you think they will break their promises on that front?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You just said that it doesn't matter who you vote for in that seat - so they can promise anything they like, there is nothing to keep true to. They won't be running the country or having any say. All, it does, and it does it very well, is mark you as a cunt.


----------



## Corax (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> OK, the BBC has to present a range of opinions


So their charter says.

But... they're fully cognizant that the Government of the day holds the power to do what they want whenever that charter's renewal comes around, including scrapping their non-commercial status altogether.  This is of particular concern when the party in power has privatisation at the core of their ideology.

I don't believe for a second that this isn't a factor in the BBC's editorial decisions.  In fact, I think it's very apparent.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

Corax said:


> So their charter says.
> 
> But... they're fully cognizant that the Government of the day holds the power to do what they want whenever that charter's renewal comes around, including scrapping their non-commercial status altogether.  This is of particular concern when the part in power has privatisation at the core of their ideology.
> 
> I don't believe for a second that this isn't a factor in the BBC's editorial decisions.  In fact, I think it's very apparent.



Ironically the more the BBC acts like a government mouthpiece the less likely anyone will bother to kick up a fuss when some government does decide to revoke their charter. I personally wouldn't piss on the Kuenssberg/Robinson BBC if it was on fire.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Could you outline other ways that the eu has been forced to change? How change has come about with it being democratically unaccountable and subject only to internal elite pressure? What will happen is a short term easing of the aggressive austerity measures on southern Europe and an increased ability of the less powerful states to threaten the centre.
> 
> Anyway, I thought Boris Johnson was nailed on prime minister by now?



That's not really an answer. Its pillars are intact for now - nothing has changed yet. Another defection could fatally wound the integration project, but it would almost certainly reform into a different, maybe purely economic one. Reports of demise are exaggerated, seen through a UK lens.

Boris is hardly an also ran is he? - but the point remains, the whole episode has strengthened, not weakened the right.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> It clearly is putting some spanner in the works if we're having a general election
> 
> Besides, what was actually argued by most of us left leavers was that the referendum on its terms was on the whole a shit choice either way, but that leave offered if only some leverage to battle the status quo and gain concessions from capital. Whereas remain basically locks us in tighter.


Aside from jingoistic patriotism or an even more simple minded desire to "stick it to the man" there were good arguments for voting Leave but that it was an opportunity to "gain concessions from capital" is a frighteningly bad one.

That would suggest Left Leavers completely failed to notice the neoliberalism on steroids post-EU agenda some Tories were successfully pushing or perhaps didn't take it seriously. Some Tories did see Brexit as an opportunity for slashing the state, a massive constitutional change cherry picking decades of legislation, shredding already weak regulation, destroying trade barriers with Asian sweat shop economies and the anglosphere. A revolutionary "Great Reform" in fact further liberating British capital while standing on the neck of disorganised labour. It might bumpy but volatility is finally good for the hedge funders who poured money into eurosceptic causes. It was ultimately about the right of the governing party "taking back control". That's what this election is going to try to lock in and maximise gains that will make the Thatcher era look timid. The odds are it will and the result may be effectively a one party state for a decade or two.

The Tories joined the European _bankers club_ to constrain the post-48 social contract and gain leverage in DC. Now they are aiming to move back to an almost Edwardian Gilded Age of globalisation and in contrast to Trump in the US there's little to even hinder them.


----------



## Corax (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> If it doesn't make a difference why vote Lib Dem? Why vote at all?


I'm in the same situation - my vote will count for absolutely fuck all.  I'll still obediently trot down to the polling station, and will vote for Labour.  I have no idea why I'll bother.  I may have a dormant fetish for village halls and short pencils on a string.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Aside from jingoistic patriotism or an even more simple minded desire to "stick it to the man" there were good arguments for voting Leave but that it was an opportunity to "gain concessions from capital" is a frighteningly bad one.
> 
> That would suggest Left Leavers completely failed to notice the neoliberalism on steroids post-EU agenda some Tories were successfully pushing or perhaps didn't take it seriously. Some Tories did see Brexit as an opportunity for slashing the state, a massive constitutional change cherry picking decades of legislation, shredding already weak regulation, destroying trade barriers with Asian sweat shop economies and the anglosphere. A revolutionary "Great Reform" in fact further liberating British capital while standing on the neck of disorganised labour. It might bumpy but volatility is finally good for the hedge funders who poured money into eurosceptic causes. It was ultimately about the right of the governing party "taking back control". That's what this election is going to try to lock in and maximise gains that will make the Thatcher era look timid. The odds are it will and the result may be effectively a one party state for a decade or two.
> 
> The Tories joined the European _bankers club_ to constrain the post-48 social contract and gain leverage in DC. Now they are aiming to move back to an almost Edwardian Gilded Age of globalisation and in contrast to Trump in the US there's little to even hinder them.



We didn't fail to notice anything. Which would be clear if you ever actually read what others have posted on here or engaged properly on urban instead of just using the forum for a constant barrage of copy and paste from other sites. Get a fucking blog or something.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Because they at least have a consistent position on Europe and Brexit, which is the most important issue at this election (for me). I think Labour have made a mess of the whole thing, and have done practically nothing to slow down or amend a Tory Brexit.



I suggest you need to make an effort to actually meet some Lib Dems. I know it's hard, given how endangered they are at the moment, but still.

Put any two Lib Dems in a room and ask them about any issue at all and you'll get at least three opinions. They don't have a consistent position on _anything _- if it seems like they do it's only because what they're currently saying about it happens to align with the prevailing mood among people who like to claim they're left wing but would rather abandon democracy entirely than have to let the uneducated masses have a casting vote on anything. It's not a policy, just the warm fuzzy reassurance of being wrapped in liberal cotton wool.

I voted Remain, and I guess I'm middle class (the hesitation is because of my disappointingly limited control of the means of production...), and I'm really sick of how many people 'like me' are falling for this. Maybe I'll be up against the wall come the revolution anyway, but there's no fucking way I'll be dressed in yellow for it.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The EU is one election away from collapse, it only has to happen once.
> 
> Three of the top five candidates in France want re-negotiations with significant concessions or they will hold a referendum.



Collapse to what? What do you think would emerge? 27 states with all their own laws and tightly managed borders? Not going to happen.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> That's not really an answer. Its pillars are intact for now - nothing has changed yet. Another defection could fatally wound the integration project, but it would almost certainly reform into a different, maybe purely economic one. Reports of demise are exaggerated, seen through a UK lens.
> 
> Boris is hardly an also ran is he? - but the point remains, the whole episode has strengthened, not weakened the right.


An answer to what? You asked me what i think will change - i answered in the only way possible. That the way it treats members states  and how those states relate to the EU is now on a different footing. The idea that a socialist utopia would follow brexit is one straight out of the brow of the worst remain elements.


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> What list?


the 'first up against the wall' one of course.
This thread as usual looks like a lot of people who all don't want to live under a tory government attacking each other with as much energy and scorn as possible. Not surprising but still depressing.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> the 'first up against the wall' one of course.
> This thread as usual looks like a lot of people who all don't want to live under a tory government attacking each other with as much energy and scorn as possible. Not surprising but still depressing.


Oh, we're all on the same side! Yeah the bedroom tax introducing LibDems are on the same side as me. Bullshit.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> the 'first up against the wall' one of course.
> This thread as usual looks like a lot of people who all don't want to live under a tory government attacking each other with as much energy and scorn as possible. Not surprising but still depressing.


tbf, there are also people in here who don't want 'to live under' any government; so there's bound to be debate, no?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

That 'how to vote to stop the tories' thing is going through facebook like a diarrhoea through a dog.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think it matters one way or another as they are both ineffectual and inconsequential. it's not like they'll hold the balance of power on 9 june or any day thereafter for that matter. i simply find it curious that you should say you'll vote for a party with sorry record on keeping their word on core policies.



Well be curious no longer - I believe that they will keep to this core promise. Different leader, different times, different issue etc etc . . .



redsquirrel said:


> List of yellow Tory scum to be liquidated come the revolution.







SpookyFrank said:


> Governments also have other stuff to do you know. Foreign policy, the economy, jobs, education, healthcare...



All of which will be impacted by Brexit in the long run . . .



butchersapron said:


> You just said that it doesn't matter who you vote for in that seat - so they can promise anything they like, there is nothing to keep true to. They won't be running the country or having any say. All, it does, and it does it very well, is mark you as a cunt.



That's a better insult. A bit harsh, quite hysterical, but has more of an impact than muppet. Well done.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> the 'first up against the wall' one of course.
> This thread as usual looks like a lot of people who all don't want to live under a tory government attacking each other with as much energy and scorn as possible. Not surprising but still depressing.



Lib Dems want to live under a Tory government


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> the 'first up against the wall' one of course.
> This thread as usual looks like a lot of people who all don't want to live under a tory government attacking each other with as much energy and scorn as possible. Not surprising but still depressing.



I used to feel like this seeing 'the left' bickering, but what's the alternative? An implausible and completely unsustainable 'unity' or 'coalition'?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Fake unity now!!!

Oh hang on, labour has that covered.


----------



## chandlerp (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> what times the vote?



A clock probably


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> All of which will be impacted by Brexit in the long run . . .



Or it will be impacted in the extremely short run if the government continues to shove everything else on the backburner for the sake of a brexit process for which there is _still_ no plan, nor even a set of guiding principles.

Vote Tory to support May's vision of Brexit. Even though nobody knows what it is, including Theresa May.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> That 'how to vote to stop the tories' thing is going through facebook like a diarrhoea through a dog.


I don't suppose it suggests voting for one of the other parties of capital does it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> That's a better insult. A bit harsh, quite hysterical, but has more of an impact than muppet. Well done.


yeh. well, i think you've only ascended as far as muppet and haven't yet shown the strength of character required to be a cunt.


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

Until the glorious day dawns though looks like it'll be Tories all the way. Me feeling depressed about that is about as useful as me voting in this election, i get it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't suppose it suggests voting for one of the other parties of capital does it?



Good god man, are you a witch?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

I wonder which "handful of seats" the Greens think they and Labour should come to an agreement in. 


> The Greens have previously argued for a so-called progressive alliance in which centre-left parties avoid competing against each other in certain seats as a way of combating the Conservatives


Of course if they were really serious, they should be the ones giving way everywhere except possibly Brighton.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Or it will be impacted in the extremely short run if the government continues to shove everything else on the backburner for the sake of a brexit process for which there is _still_ no plan, nor even a set of guiding principles..



Impacts that can be challenged in future elections. Brexit and its impacts can not.



SpookyFrank said:


> Vote Tory to support May's vision of Brexit. Even though nobody knows what it is, including Theresa May.



Labours opposition to May's vision of Brexit has been so poor it barely counts as opposition at all.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I wonder which "handful of seats" the Greens think they and Labour should come to an agreement in.
> 
> Of course if they were really serious, they should be the ones giving way everywhere except possibly Brighton.



Isn't there that one constituency in Norwich in which they are playing the role of continuity Lib Dems?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

A mighty alliance of two seats. Brighon and Norwich south.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Until the glorious day dawns though looks like it'll be Tories all the way. Me feeling depressed about that is about as useful as me voting in this election, i get it.


Make a bloody argument then, rather than this pathetic wet mock anti-Toryism posturing. You arguing that people should vote LibDems? That the Labour/Greens/LibDems should come to an electoral agreement? What?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Fake unity now!!!
> 
> Oh hang on, labour has that covered.



Exactly, or rather, not anymore. The cracks that New Labour papered over would now presumably be as visible under whatever right-wing gonk replaces Corbyn as they have been since he was elected leader. 

Like bimble and the vast majority here, I'd rather the Tories weren't in government. But holding together factions this disparate, if not completely incompatible, in a bid for a few more 'not the Tories' years, is just postponing the inevitable.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> A mighty alliance of two seats. Brighon and Norwich south.



Why wouldn't Labour give the weirdos those seats if it meant a free hand everywhere else?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Why wouldn't Labour give the weirdos those seats if it meant a free hand everywhere else?


If you've ever fought a local fight againts the lib-dems or green you'd know why. 

Scars.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Until the glorious day dawns though looks like it'll be Tories all the way. Me feeling depressed about that is about as useful as me voting in this election, i get it.



That will probably be the glorious day when all elections revolve around a bi-partite if not tri-partite coalition, created by the insufficient choice between ideologies and all blends, at last into some nightmarish neo-liberal dictatorship?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> If you've ever fought a local fight againts the lib-dems or green you'd know why.
> 
> Scars.



Well I get that they are mostly terrible, irritating people with terrible instincts and worse politics but electorally it seems like a good idea to me.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

_Why can't all the neo-liberals just get along and run everything for us?_


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Well I get that they are mostly terrible, irritating people with terrible instincts and worse politics but electorally it seems like a good idea to me.


Locals will not swallow it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

''What good fortune for governments that the people do not think''
Who said that?


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Collapse to what? What do you think would emerge? 27 states with all their own laws and tightly managed borders? Not going to happen.


That is hard to imagine as that was quite a pain in arse for folk on continental Europe who go over borders all the time and have interlocking economies. What you might see is more sinister UK style surveillance society features and emergency measures added to Schengen but they'll rarely be invoked.

It comes down to practicalities. That's why even the isolationist Swiss went with Schengen. Last time they operated border controls Geneva and Basel nearly shut down. A third of the workforce crosses the border each day. And that was the French and Germans squeezing them over banking secrecy for a week before the Swiss caved. For border cities it's not so different from in Ireland where you'll only find a few deranged Kippers and dissident Republicans actually wanting the reality of a hard border back.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> ''What good fortune for governments that the people do not think''
> Who said that?



foxler


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. well, i think you've only ascended as far as muppet and haven't yet shown the strength of character required to be a cunt.



Give me time


----------



## Septimus Rufiji (Apr 19, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> ''What good fortune for governments that the people do not think''
> Who said that?



B.I.G?


----------



## agricola (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> _Why can't all the neo-liberals just get along and run everything for us?_



Isn't that a trademark owned by the Guardian?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Give me time


the next few weeks should suffice


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 19, 2017)

fucked herself.

i aint even gonna vote, well cant be arsed no more. piss takers.

i opted out of the political system as well as the news now 

the climate is prime for an uprising of the people as well, everyone is a cunt.


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Just in case you needed any reminding of his cuntishness...
> 
> Tony Blair could work alongside Lib Dems in anti-Brexit election campaign
> 
> ...



Doesn't that mean automatic expulsion from the LP?


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Social housing? Working class conditions? Public services? Are these important to you in the election?


 
for many on the liberal left, and some on the wider left) economic inequality, basic issues, etc are not the priority.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> for many on the liberal left, and some on the wider left) economic inequality, basic issues, etc are not the priority.


what are 'basic issues'?


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> for many on the liberal left, and some on the wider left) economic inequality, basic issues, etc are not the priority.




that sounds like a major problem.


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> what are 'basic issues'?




poor people food.


----------



## krink (Apr 19, 2017)

We need a good hard campaign strategy for spunking cock 2017. This is our moment.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Impacts that can be challenged in future elections. Brexit and its impacts can not.



Future elections cannot bring back to life those who have died needlessly due to overcrowded hospitals.


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

TheHoodedClaw said:


> I assume they are unaware that they are quoting Lenin?
> 
> How the Soviet Union is Governed




a very very alarming headline.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> poor people food.


i wondered what treelover understood by the phrase - his definitions can be quite idiosyncratick.


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> That 'how to vote to stop the tories' thing is going through facebook like a diarrhoea through a dog.



is that a positive thing, the spreading of the article?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> is that a positive thing, the spreading of the article?



Depends if you like things that are shit I suppose.

Even if you are stupid enough to think that voting lib dem to keep out the tories is a thing, that document that everyone's posting recommends voting for the lib dems even in labour-held seats in some cases.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

George Osborne is standing down as an MP.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

off to spend more time with his chang


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 19, 2017)

hes a fucking tossbag as well, he's about as good at maths as i am and i aint fucking good at it but i know where his calculations are fucking up, thats embarrassing.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Depends if you like things that are shit I suppose.





agricola said:


> Isn't that [also: b_b] a trademark owned by the Guardian?


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> is that a positive thing, the spreading of the article?


it's clearly been put together to maximise lib dem seats - including telling people to vote lib dem in labour seats.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

On MEE Tories rehire strategist behind ‘racist’ London mayor campaign


> ...
> His signature method is said to be the so-called “dead cat” manoeuvre which Boris Johnson (whose election campaign Crosby had led) once described as: “There is one thing that is absolutely certain about throwing a dead cat on the dining room table – and I don’t mean that people will be outraged, alarmed, disgusted. That is true, but irrelevant. The key point, says my Australian friend, is that everyone will shout, ‘Jeez, mate, there’s a dead cat on the table!’ In other words, they will be talking about the dead cat – the thing you want them to talk about – and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.”
> ...


You could think of the whole Brexit thing as a fatal feline distraction from what really ails the UK.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> George Osborne is standing down as an MP.



Too much toil for the poor little lamb?


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Too much toil for the poor little lamb?



Potential breathing room to make a workable Brexit just shut the door on any potential return to power for Gideon.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

gosub said:


> Potential breathing room to make a workable Brexit just shut the door on any potential return to power for Gideon.


that door has been shut for some time.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 19, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> On MEE Tories rehire strategist behind ‘racist’ London mayor campaign
> You could think of the whole Brexit thing as a fatal feline distraction from what really ails the UK.


 
Scum rises to the top eventually


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> that door has been shut for some time.


Was marginally ajar.  locked and bolted now.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Future elections cannot bring back to life those who have died needlessly due to overcroded hospitals.



No, but they can stop even more people dying due to the knock on effects of not getting a Brexit right


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> No, but they can stop even more people dying due to the knock on effects of not getting a Brexit right



People are and have been dying for quite a while. NHS privatisation and marketisation. Tories, Labour and Lib Dems. All responsible. All culpable.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> No, but they can stop even more people dying due to the knock on effects of not getting a Brexit right



Knock on effects are one thing, stuff that is actually happening right now quite another.

And nobody actually knows what 'getting brexit right' even means. For some it means an associate member type status with free movement of people and access to the customs union and single market. For others it mean physically pushing our islands out into the middle of the Atlantic and beating anyone who knows French around the head with lead pipes until they forget it.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Knock on effects are one thing, stuff that is actually happening right now quite another.
> 
> And nobody actually knows what 'getting brexit right' even means. For some it means an associate member type status with free movement of people and access to the customs union and single market. For others it mean physically pushing our islands out into the middle of the Atlantic and beating anyone who knows French around the head with lead pipes until they forget it.



Getting Brexit wrong means delays at ports that make Operation Stack look like small fry,  severally disrupting supply chains; or failing to secure reciprocal rights for key workers that lead to shut down due to staff shortages - otherwise why would lose of life be mentioned?   Very few people die in the queue for immigration control when going on holiday.


----------



## agricola (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Knock on effects are one thing, stuff that is actually happening right now quite another.
> 
> And nobody actually knows what 'getting brexit right' even means. For some it means an associate member type status with free movement of people and access to the customs union and single market. For others it mean physically pushing our islands out into the middle of the Atlantic and beating anyone who knows French around the head with lead pipes until they forget it.



TBF I think the way the latter point has been expressed is that they would get their groundsman and/or stable-lad to beat anyone who knows French around their head with lead pipes until they forget it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

gosub said:


> Getting Brexit wrong means delays at ports that make Operation Stack look like small fry, which severally disrupte supply chains or failing to secure reciprocal rights for key workers that lead to shut down due to staff shortages - otherwise why would lose of life be mentioned?   Very few people die in the queue for immigration control when going on holiday.



For some that's a small price to pay for complete divorce from the EU. Probably not many people are actually this fanatical on the subject but those are the voices being placed in the foreground at the moment.

When I talked about people dying though, I meant as a result of existing domestic policy not as a result of Brexit. This demented attitude of sort out brexit first, then deal with everything else dooms us to pursuing policies which are already failing badly for several more years.


----------



## 8den (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> George Osborne is standing down as an MP.



Politic's loss is also journalism's loss.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> For some that's a small price to pay for complete divorce from the EU.
> 
> When I talked about people dying though, I meant as a result of existing domestic policy not as a result of Brexit. This demented attitude of sort out brexit first, then deal with everything else dooms us to pursuing policies which are already failing badly for several more years.


But its so entwined with everything you have to sort out first -NHS can't function without immigrant labour, nor currently our building sector, what is that saying "only ever 3 meals from anarchy"? and we are about to turn agriculture on its head...
At best you can implement everything else in parallel.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> List of yellow Tory scum to be liquidated come the revolution.



Bless.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 19, 2017)

gosub said:


> what is that saying "only ever 3 meals from anarchy"? and we are about to turn agriculture on its head...


Yeah, fucking anarchists, planting crops upside down.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

gosub said:


> what is that saying "only ever 3 meals from anarchy"?



I think that means that we'll deliver three good square meals per day actually.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 19, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> I think that means that we'll deliver three good square meals per day actually.



Anarchodeliveroo.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

gosub said:


> But its so entwined with everything you have to sort out first -NHS can't function without immigrant labour, nor currently our building sector, what is that saying "only ever 3 meals from anarchy"? and we are about to turn agriculture on its head...
> At best you can implement everything else in parallel.



Not everyone comprehends this though. May herself has often proven to be anti-immigrant far beyond the realms of any rational argument, spending tens of thousands on charter flights to deport one person, that sort of thing. I wouldn't put it past her to pull up the drawbridge to EU workers even if she knew it meant certain catastrophe. I definitely wouldn't put it past her to target her election campaign at the kind of lunatic who would support such a policy.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Knock on effects are one thing, stuff that is actually happening right now quite another.
> 
> And nobody actually knows what 'getting brexit right' even means. For some it means an associate member type status with free movement of people and access to the customs union and single market. For others it mean physically pushing our islands out into the middle of the Atlantic and beating anyone who knows French around the head with lead pipes until they forget it.



By getting Brexit right, I mean getting a deal which doesn't fuck up our economy to such an extent we can no longer afford to spend money on the other important domestic issues. Becoming a low tax, low regulation, no worker rights country in order to "compete" would forever doom our country


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> By getting Brexit right, I mean getting a deal which doesn't fuck up our economy to such an extent we can no longer afford to spend money on the other important domestic issues. Becoming a low tax, low regulation, no worker rights country in order to "compete" would forever doom our country



And do you think May's plan is? Tories love low taxes, low regulation and shit for workers' rights. It's what they see in the vinegar strokes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> And do you think May's plan is? Tories love low taxes, low regulation and shit for workers' rights. It's what they see in the vinegar strokes.


the very expensive sherry vinegar strokes


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> the very expensive sherry vinegar strokes



I think Sherry Vinegar went to our school!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> By getting Brexit right, I mean getting a deal which doesn't fuck up our economy to such an extent we can no longer afford to spend money on the other important domestic issues. Becoming a low tax, low regulation, no worker rights country in order to "compete" would forever doom our country


even if they wanted a brexit which would benefit britons they couldn't get it because they're a cabal of incompetent numpties


----------



## N_igma (Apr 19, 2017)

Up the ra fuck the Brits and what? Lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

N_igma said:


> Up the ra fuck the Brits and what? Lol


and whatnot


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

13.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> 13.



i understand a useful guide to job seeking has been circulated to all labour mps.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i understand a useful guide to job seeking has been circulated to all labour mps.


Jamie Reed must have felt which way the wind was blowing and bailed for a cushty board position accordingly


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

I thought Erdogan had put a stop to turkeys voting for Xmas


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Jamie Reed must have felt which way the wind was blowing and bailed for a cushty board position accordingly


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

This will be the first election my son is old enough to vote in having just turned 18.
But he is completely unaware of politics and won't have a clue who to vote for.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> This will be the first election my son is old enough to vote in having just turned 18.
> But he is completely unaware of politics and won't have a clue who to vote for.



Chip off the old block then?!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> This will be the first election my son is old enough to vote in having just turned 18.
> But he is completely unaware of politics and won't have a clue who to vote for.


if only he had someone experienced in the ways of politics who could offer him some sage advice.


----------



## The Boy (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> This will be the first election my son is old enough to vote in having just turned 18.
> But he is completely unaware of politics and won't have a clue who to vote for.



I blame the parents...


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

Well, I haven't yet decided who to vote for either so there may be something in that.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Guardian appears to be reporting on the bailing class taritors here.

Included in the piece was this award winning irony.



> Some senior party figures described the situation as “catastrophic” and mooted possible scenarios in which there are breakaway factions linked to the Cooperative movement *or a rebrand as Old Labour.*


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> This will be the first election my son is old enough to vote in having just turned 18.
> But he is completely unaware of politics and won't have a clue who to vote for.


how did this happen?


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> how did this happen?


He isn't interested in politics or current affairs.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> He isn't interested in politics or current affairs.


how did this happen?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

the apple falls not far etc


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> And do you think May's plan is? Tories love low taxes, low regulation and shit for workers' rights. It's what they see in the vinegar strokes.



I dont support the Tory vision for Brexit, which is why I wont vote for a Labour party that can't oppose it properly



Pickman's model said:


> even if they wanted a brexit which would benefit britons they couldn't get it because they're a cabal of incompetent numpties



They are


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

You are all bastards!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Guardian appears to be reporting on the bailing class taritors here.
> 
> Included in the piece was this award winning irony.
> 
> ​


been saying for ages they'll tank the party rather than be lead from its left. I suppose this is just that, at its denouement


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> They are


we find common ground. i will choose a different position in future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> You are all bastards!


only taken you nine and a half years to work that out.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

N_igma said:


> Up the ra fuck the Brits and what? Lol


I'm sure you weren't a  comedy gunman before. Is it since you got your degree?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> He isn't interested in politics or current affairs.


Not all 18 year olds are. Until they realise how politics affect their everyday lives etc. Perhaps start talking about current issues policies that directly affect him?


----------



## Red Cat (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> You are all bastards!



Go for it weltweit. A bit more aggression will do you the world of good


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> been saying for ages they'll tank the party rather than be lead from its left. I suppose this is just that, at its denouement


Good. If the BLP can't be saved it should be destroyed.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Good. If the BLP can't be saved it should be destroyed.


There we were thinking that Corbyn & the left had been too tardy in overhauling party structures/mechanisms to root out the neoliberals; seems as though he did have a plan all along!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> There we were thinking that Corbyn & the left had been too tardy in overhauling party structures/mechanisms to root out the neoliberals; seems as though he did have a plan all along!


Or maybe the gods have chosen to toy with him a little longer.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Not all 18 year olds are. Until they realise how politics affect their everyday lives etc. Perhaps start talking about current issues policies that directly affect him?


Unfortunately Rutita1 he lives with his mum, my contact time is quite limited. That said I might well try to persuade him to vote, now that he can.


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Unfortunately Rutita1 he lives with his mum, my contact time is quite limited. That said I might well try to persuade him to vote, now that he can.


the lib dems need every vote they can scrape together.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Or maybe the gods have chosen to toy with him a little longer.


Nah...it's clearly the grand vision...meltdown at the polls; 100 ish seats held...Corbo stays put...and the last few remaining neolibs walk/go mad. Method in the madness.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> the lib dems need every vote they can scrape together.


It wouldn't do them any good where he lives, it is a safe tory seat.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> For some that's a small price to pay for complete divorce from the EU. Probably not many people are actually this fanatical on the subject but those are the voices being placed in the foreground at the moment.
> 
> When I talked about people dying though, I meant as a result of existing domestic policy not as a result of Brexit. This demented attitude of sort out brexit first, then deal with everything else dooms us to pursuing policies which are already failing badly for several more years.


I'm afraid when the country went Leave it meant accepting a period focussed on the business of Brexit crucially under a Tory government. Forgetting trade this is enormously complicated massive constitutional reform and was always going to gum up the best intentioned government. It's what the Constitutional Lawyers and Civil Service almost all anticipated but folk were tired of experts.

A massive legal review is absolutely required or UK law relying on EU legislation ceases to function in swathes of areas in very costly ways. What Leave meant was also opting for allowing the Tories to pick over many decades of UK lawmaking. They were already pushing for minimal parliamentary scrutiny so they can rush it all through which is a risk in itself as a small legislative error can have very nasty consequences. That's what this election is all about facilitating. Maximum gains for their reform agenda as they weed out and tweak EU law they don't like. That will have direct domestic effects and given dogmatic Tory preferences you'd have to be very trusting to not anticipate that it mostly won't be good for lower deciles. 

Meanwhile the awful mess the British have made of basic issues like housing policy or not training enough British nursing/care staff leaving less skinflint but poorer EU27 countries to often fill the gap will likely remain on the back burner. Over crowded hospitals/care homes that are also understaffed are a likely consequence.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> It wouldn't do them any good where he lives, it is a safe tory seat.



He should learn that voting is great fun even if you don't like any of the main parties. Just go for the Bus Pass Elvis party, or Spunking Cock. Then harp on about doing your civic duty all day and not voting Tory. Rite of passage etc.


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

> * Labour MPs hail Yvette Cooper's PMQs performance *
> Colleagues show support after shadow home secretary criticises Theresa May for breaking snap general election promise
> 
> Labour MPs hail Yvette Cooper's PMQs performance



Guardian setting up the anointed ones for after the fall already, it is so fucking blatant

they even have her as a search sub heading


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Unfortunately Rutita1 he lives with his mum, my contact time is quite limited. That said I might well try to persuade him to vote, now that he can.



Getting 18-24 year olds interested, registered to vote and against the Tories would be a very good thing indeed.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not everyone comprehends this though. May herself has often proven to be anti-immigrant far beyond the realms of any rational argument, spending tens of thousands on charter flights to deport one person, that sort of thing. I wouldn't put it past her to pull up the drawbridge to EU workers even if she knew it meant certain catastrophe. I definitely wouldn't put it past her to target her election campaign at the kind of lunatic who would support such a policy.


Be fair she did oversee importing record levels (150K+) non-EU migrants PA as Home Secretary on tiers of visas her department devised that were sold as measures to reduce immigration. They mostly from the the Indian sub-continent. Hardly the actions of a xenophobe. She just did this while making a great deal of noise about being anti-immigration and blaming those awful people in Brussels which is a nice trick. 

Dave who was delighted at all the low wage jobs and GDP growth that had been created said it was "complicated"; it wasn't really. Any points system controls will be captured by employers just like in Canada. That has essentially already happened once in the UK. 

I would not expect this to change unless demand for labour supply actually collapses say due to automation or a failing UK economy. The Tories are nothing if not a stoutly pro-employer party.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i understand a useful guide to job seeking has been circulated to all labour mps.


46 abstained & 9 against.


----------



## gosub (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> 46 abstained & 9 against.



What was the point in abstaining  It was a get 433 votes or fuck all happens affair


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

brogdale said:


> 46 abstained & 9 against.


wreckers


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> Guardian setting up the anointed ones for after the fall already, it is so fucking blatant
> 
> they even have her as a search sub heading


not surprised you're pleased, we all know you hate socialists


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I dont support the Tory vision for Brexit, which is why I wont vote for a Labour party that can't oppose it properly



Can you spot the flaw in your thinking here?


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Getting 18-24 year olds interested, registered to vote and against the Tories would be a very good thing indeed.


That's it is it, "against the Tories". That is not political it's apolitical.


----------



## gawkrodger (Apr 19, 2017)

My local (Labour) MP has announced he will not be standing for re-election


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Polling indicates people in this decile far to the right of normal people.


----------



## cantsin (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?



seems v unlikely, but if searching hard for possible as yet hidden pathways to glory, a few things could, at a push shake things up eg :  

New membership surge - possible Iyou'd have to guess, early noises are positive
"Corbo does best in election / battle mode" - arguably true
"Only Corbo is likely to get big rallies going = soc media spectacles / virality  / momentum etc" - 
Melenchon wins, everyone loses their sh*t, Corbo / LP get swept along on pan euro wave of democratic socialist joy + hope
Weird shit happens that no one foresaw, changing the temperature/atmosphere : always possible the way things going at the moment


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Polling indicates people in this decile far to the right of normal people.


labour mps or 18-24 year aulds?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

You joined and there is no popular support. Nothing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You joined and there is no popular support. Nothing.


who's that to?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> who's that to?


Cantsin


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> labour mps or 18-24 year aulds?


The kidz


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

I will be interested to see how the GE pans out here, with three strong, safe Labour seats that returned a 69.9% Leave vote!


----------



## cantsin (Apr 19, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You joined and there is no popular support. Nothing.



harsh 

( not sure what the connection / relationship between the two factoids is, as you see it, tbh )


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 19, 2017)

cantsin said:


> seems v unlikely, but if searching hard for possible as yet hidden pathways to glory, a few things could, at a push shake things up eg :
> 
> New membership surge - possible Iyou'd have to guess, early noises are positive
> "Corbo does best in election / battle mode" - arguably true
> ...


Some sort of spectacularly awful Tory foul up or the polls being really, really off are perhaps more likely bolts from the blue.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Some sort of spectacularly awful Tory foul up or the polls being really, really off are perhaps more likely bolts from the blue.



The polls could be really off in Labour's favour and the Tories would still trounce Labour.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Can you spot the flaw in your thinking here?



Nope . . .


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The polls could be really off in Labour's favour and the Tories would still trounce Labour.


It's more the distribution of the tory and labour votes which will fuck labour


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Nope . . .


Go back and try again


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Go back and try again



If you know, then feel free to share with the rest of the class


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 19, 2017)

cantsin said:


> harsh
> 
> ( not sure what the connection / relationship between the two factoids is, as you see it, tbh )


What did you do? The people you know?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> If you know, then feel free to share with the rest of the class


We can point it out but we can't understand it for you


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> We can point it out but we can't understand it for you



So you don't know either then . . . Another great contribution there Pickman


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Well I get that they are mostly terrible, irritating people with terrible instincts and worse politics but electorally it seems like a good idea to me.



From the Greens POV it's a shit idea in the long term. Really shit.

*shrugs*


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

chilango said:


> From the Greens POV it's a shit idea in the long term. Really shit.
> 
> *shrugs*



even more reason to do it from my perspective then


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> even more reason to do it from my perspective then


Have the Greens given up effectively?


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> even more reason to do it from my perspective then



It lets the Lib Dems live


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I dont support the Tory vision for Brexit, which is why I wont vote for a Labour party that can't oppose it properly


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

chilango said:


> It lets the Lib Dems live



If they are going to do it they should do it with the Greens but not Lib Dems


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


>



I don't support the Tories which is why I'm backing the party which desperately wants to hold the Tories' hands in power


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't support the Tories which is why I'm backing the party which desperately wants to hold the Tories' hands in power



Ow, you gave Pickman a decent answer he couldn't get himself 

But that's only a flaw if you think a coalition is in any way likely . . . Which it isn't . . . At all. And even if it was, they would still do a better job of holding a full scale Tory Brexit back than Labours free-pass approach has done


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Ow, you gave me a decent answer i couldn't get myself


C4U


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

> * Labour MPs hail Yvette Cooper's PMQs performance *
> Colleagues show support after shadow home secretary criticises Theresa May for breaking snap general election promise
> 
> Labour MPs hail Yvette Cooper's PMQs performance



Guardian setting up the anointed ones for after the fall already, it is so fucking blatant

they even have her as a search sub heading


CrabbedOne said:


> Be fair she did oversee importing record levels (150K+) non-EU migrants PA as Home Secretary on tiers of visas her department devised that were sold as measures to reduce immigration. They mostly from the the Indian sub-continent. Hardly the actions of a xenophobe. She just did this while making a great deal of noise about being anti-immigration and blaming those awful people in Brussels which is a nice trick.
> 
> Dave who was delighted at all the low wage jobs and GDP growth that had been created said it was "complicated"; it wasn't really. *Any points system controls will be captured by employers just like in Canada. That has essentially already happened once in the UK.
> 
> I would not expect this to change unless demand for labour supply actually collapses say due to automation or a failing UK economy. The Tories are nothing if not a stoutly pro-employer party.*




NZ/Australia are about to abandon the points system partly due to that faultline.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> Guardian setting up the anointed ones for after the fall already, it is so fucking blatant
> 
> they even have her as a search sub heading





treelover said:


> Guardian setting up the anointed ones for after the fall already, it is so fucking blatant
> 
> they even have her as a search sub heading


It wasn't worth repeating


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> C4U



*I already admitted * I couldn't see the flaw ffs . . . But you decide to correct my post to - once again - point out the obvious 

Good job Pickman!


----------



## Raheem (Apr 19, 2017)

cantsin said:


> seems v unlikely, but if searching hard for possible as yet hidden pathways to glory, a few things could, at a push shake things up eg :
> 
> New membership surge - possible Iyou'd have to guess, early noises are positive
> "Corbo does best in election / battle mode" - arguably true
> ...



The big thing that could shake things up is if May is forced into conceding that she intends to more-or-less retain free movement of people (which she certainly does - it's the whole reason for calling an election). I can't see it happening, since she will probably be able to lock herself in a cupboard for the duration and still be hailed by the media as history's greatest woman. But the EU27 are meeting at the end of April and that might possibly bring things to a head. Outside chance, though, imo.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> *I already admitted * I couldn't see the flaw ffs . . .


There are none so blind as those who will not see


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> There are none so blind as those who will not see



Seriously 

Fucking hell . . .


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

Gina Miller's crowdfunding campaign 'Support the country’s biggest tactical voting drive ever and stop Extreme Brexit ' has raised over £27,000  since it started yesterday.
Click here to support Do what’s best for Britain! organized by Gina Miller
(comments on there reflect how just as TM said, the country is coming together now to make a success of brexit).


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Gina Miller's crowdfunding campaign 'Support the country’s biggest tactical voting drive ever and stop Extreme Brexit ' has raised over £27,000  since it started yesterday.
> Click here to support Do what’s best for Britain! organized by Gina Miller
> (comments on there reflect how just as TM said, the country is coming together now to make a success of brexit).



Middle-class idiots with deep pockets


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

You'd think she had enough in the back burner to bankroll it herself, being a hedgefund manager


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Seriously
> 
> Fucking hell . . .


No wonder your politics are shit when you don't even understand your own posts


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> You'd think she had enough in the back burner to bankroll it herself, being a hedgefund manager



Snakeoil sellers don't buy their own stuff


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Middle-class idiots with deep pockets


Looks like its pulling in about £1,000 a minute just now.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Middle-class idiots with deep pockets



Essentially, it's just more privileged people with/using capital, but hard remain instead.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> No wonder your politics are shit when you don't even understand your own posts



What are you babbling about now!?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Looks like its pulling in about £1,000 a minute just now.



I need to get into this business of fleecing remainers somehow


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> What are you babbling about now!?


Thick as pigshit, in lenin's immortal phrase - a grand example of a yellow tory


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Thick as pigshit, in lenin's immortal phrase - a grand example of a yellow tory



Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself again Pickman


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Gina Miller's crowdfunding campaign 'Support the country’s biggest tactical voting drive ever and stop Extreme Brexit ' has raised over £27,000  since it started yesterday.
> Click here to support Do what’s best for Britain! organized by Gina Miller
> (comments on there reflect how just as TM said, the country is coming together now to make a success of brexit).


Vote LibDem!


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

I'll be voting for the Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol Party again probably, if they stand again this time in Lambeth.


----------



## chilango (Apr 19, 2017)

Time to wheel this out again....


----------



## teqniq (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> I'll be voting for the Canabis Is Safer Than Alcohol Party again probably, if they stand again this time in Lambeth.


If they can be bothered to get up.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 19, 2017)

If we can talk about Lexit then can we discuss the possibility of a progressive alternative opened up by the future implosion of Labour?

Why does this have to be long-term rather than short-term?

I say this and I am currently wondering whether to not bother voting. Or reregister for a postal vote and vote.... Labour ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Oh dear, you're embarrassing yourself again Pickman


If I'm embarrassing myself what greater shame you must feel, to have posted drivel you don't understand yourself.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 19, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> If I'm embarrassing myself what greater shame you must feel, to have posted drivel you don't understand yourself.



Do you even know why you are having this to and fro with me?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Do you even know why you are having this to and fro with me?


Yes.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> I'll be voting for the Cannabis Is Safer Than Alcohol Party again probably, if they stand again this time in Lambeth.


Nice to see you apply the same consistency between your own actions and the actions of the Green's voters in the US you criticised.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Nice to see you apply the same consistency between your own actions and the actions of the Green's voters in the US you criticised.


Consistency is bimble's rl first name


----------



## treelover (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Middle-class idiots with deep pockets



John McDonnell has just said the LP election fund kickstarter has already raised 200,000 in the first 24 hours(from 10,000 donors), pretty impressive as you can be sure Mandelsohn and Lord Levy won't be doing much fundraising this time.


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Nice to see you apply the same consistency between your own actions and the actions of the Green's voters in the US you criticised.


I live in a place that's a very safe labour seat with really shitty local government. Not really similar to voting 3rd party in say Florida if you hated trump.


----------



## Lurdan (Apr 19, 2017)




----------



## moochedit (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Gina Miller's crowdfunding campaign 'Support the country’s biggest tactical voting drive ever and stop Extreme Brexit ' has raised over £27,000  since it started yesterday



isn't she a hedge fund manager? if so 27k is small change to her (and her mates).


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

moochedit said:


> isn't she a hedge fund manager? if so 27k is small change to her.


38 grand now. Original 'target' said 35.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> I live in a place that's a very safe labour seat with really shitty local government. Not really similar to voting 3rd party in say Florida if you hated trump.


Apart from the fact that it wasn't just Florida Greens voters* you criticised was it.

I don't see anything about seats/areas here either


> I think it would mean something yes. If you stayed home that day or voted for 'neither of them', and then after the fact went out to protest about trump, because you really didn't want him as your president, I think that's kind of interesting yes.
> You won't agree but I think people 'should' have voted not trump, even if they did not like HC at all, to prevent this administration getting into power.


So were you talking bollocks before or are you just a hypocrite (or both)?

*NB and even if all 64,000 Florida Stein voters had gone for Clinton, she still wouldn't have won the state.


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

Don't see the contradiction. Yeah I think people 'should' have voted for whoever would keep trump out. Something like half of eligible voters didn't vote,  and he won. I'm not pure, I'd have voted for you even, if you stood against trump.
here in lambeth, my vote won't make any difference at all to the outcome, but prefer to show up and vote for the comedy option than just stay home.


----------



## Spymaster (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> I'd have voted for you even, if you stood against trump.


Steady on.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Don't see the contradiction. Yeah I think people 'should' have voted for whoever would keep trump out. Something like half of eligible voters didn't vote,  and he won. I'm not pure, I'd have voted for you even,  if you stood against trump.


So the safeness of not of seat isn't a factor then? Make your mind up.

And if you can't see the contradiction between slagging off people who voted Stein and then voting for a comedy option (when you've made it clear you favour some type of anti-Tory alliance) then you're even thicker than I thought.


----------



## Lurdan (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel is the comedy option ?? 

#worstnightoutever


----------



## bimble (Apr 19, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> So the safeness of not of seat isn't a factor then? Make your mind up.
> 
> And if you can't see the contradiction between slagging off people who voted Stein and then voting for a comedy option (when you've made it clear you favour some type of anti-Tory alliance) then you're even thinker than I thought.


Safeness of seat does matter, in my tawdry way of looking at stuff yes.

& In Florida, Trump would have lost if the 3rd party voters had gone clinton.
Florida Election Results 2016: President Live Map by County, Real-Time Voting Updates


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 19, 2017)

bimble said:


> Safeness of seat does matter, in my tawdry way of looking at stuff yes.


So you were talking bollocks before when you slagged off Nebraska Stein voters.



bimble said:


> & In Florida, Trump would have lost if the 3rd party voters had gone clinton.
> Florida Election Results 2016: President Live Map by County, Real-Time Voting Updates


Your figures are out of date.
Clinton 4,504,975
Trump 4,617,886
Johnson 207,043
Stein 64,399

Even if all Stein voters had voted for Clinton, Trump will have still taken the state. Clinton would have to have taken voters from Johnson (who's voters were more likely to split for Trump anyway) to win Florida.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Apr 19, 2017)

Cat among the pigeons now. Does not seem much confidence there is a big army of people who did not vote because they had not had a "real choice" riding to the rescue. Though no doubts this meme will shift to "something something Blairite traitors thus the people did not vote for our shining prince".

Still I suspect Labours polling will either improve slightly or they will out perform it on polling day. I doubt there is much apatite for a triumphalist, unrestrained Tory party among those who voted Labour in 2010 and 2015, they will likely be willing to come back in larger numbers than the polling suggests out of fear of the result and they do not have to worry about a Labour\SNP coalition this time. 
This election is happening purely because of the collapse of the Kippers, even with the loss of Labour numbers in the polls since the 15 GE result I doubt the Tories would have dared had they not picked up all those ex Kipper votes.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Apr 19, 2017)

Lurdan said:


>


Only Nuttal really looks like he is a wanker who is coming.


----------



## The Boy (Apr 19, 2017)

ferrelhadley said:


> Only Nuttal really looks like he is a wanker who is coming.



Pretty sure that's all of their cum faces, bruh.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

The Boy said:


> Pretty sure that's all of their cum faces, bruh.


impossible to tell with farron


----------



## killer b (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> impossible to tell with farron


That's between him and his God.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 19, 2017)

killer b said:


> That's between him and his God.



(((Farrons' God)))


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

kebabking said:


> (((Farrons' God)))



)))Farron's God(((


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

pearly necklace gates etc


----------



## rich! (Apr 19, 2017)

panpete said:


> I haven't read all this thread but I think toreis will get in again as the media dont portray labour in a true light. i might be wrong, just my gut instinct. UKIP might do a bit better also.
> What with Trump over the atlantic and the world generally turning all right wing and divisive, I cannot see labour getting in, although I want them to. I knwo the country are worried about the NHS but somehow, the tories got in last time, god knows how, but I just get a feeling they will get in again.


Stupid question, I know, but you are going to vote against the Tories, yes?


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 19, 2017)

This is going to be a long 50-odd days 

Not sure how much I can avoid the annoying as fuck TV coverage, especially those bits where the BBC deliberately looks for people in the vox pops who sound as stupid as possible and presents them as representative 

Still, I've been an election-aholic for ever, so despite the pain I'll still be following stuff here and in the papers every day for the ride 

Here in Swansea East, festivaldeb quickly discovered that Carolyn Harris is actually a half-decent constituency MP -- actually pro-Corbyn -- and also more importantly, she's spoken up locally on behalf of claimants who are having a shit time with the DWP. She'll get my vote.

ETA to correct Carolyn's spelling


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> This is going to be a long 50-odd days
> 
> Not sure how much I can avoid the annoying as fuck TV coverage, especially those bits where the BBC deliberately looks for people in the vox pops who sound as stupid as possible and presents them as representative
> 
> ...




Do you mean Carolyn Harris? 

Also, has been campaigning to scrap child funeral costs recently? I have had some contact through work  A decent egg.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 19, 2017)

The worst thing about all this is I've got work on the 9th of June so I won't even be able to stay up all night getting shitface drunk as per usual


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> The worst thing about all this is I've got work on the 9th of June so I won't even be able to stay up all night getting shitface drunk as per usual



Yes you can. You can then call in sick and not give a flying fuck. Far too many of us don't do this. Bereavement is real yo.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

Top work...though not from the biker OB.


----------



## moochedit (Apr 19, 2017)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes you can. You can then call in sick and not give a flying fuck. Far too many of us don't do this. Bereavement is real yo.



i think i will be genuinely feeling sick when i hear the results anyway.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> The worst thing about all this is I've got work on the 9th of June so I won't even be able to stay up all night getting shitface drunk as per usual



Me and Mrs S. are hoping to be in Greece around the date. By coincidence we were in Greece when that referendum business was on last year. So listening on the crackly radio, quaffing mythos and ouzo seems as chilled an atmosphere as possible to be in.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Apr 19, 2017)

Not sure if the Rt Hon Member for South West Surrey will be lobbying himself for changes to the NHS


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> impossible to tell with farron



He's a Lib Dem. His cum face is probably more chestnut-brown that it is in that pic.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

Just to clarify - that wasn't a racist comment. I was saying he probably cant get off unless someone's shitting on him.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

This really is going to be a total disaster


----------



## brogdale (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This really is going to be a total disaster



Quite possibly so...but with the landslide will come complete and total ownership of what follows.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 19, 2017)

Depends if the Labour party get off their arses and do some decent campaigning in areas that traditionally voted for them and could still do... doesnt it!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 19, 2017)

Riklet said:


> Depends if the Labour party get off their arses and do some decent campaigning in areas that traditionally voted for them and could still do... doesnt it!



I don't think that there is any sort of strategy electorally that can forestall disaster for Labour. Corbyn is seriously hated by a lot of people, and the vast majority of those who do not hate him aren't supporters, he isn't a polarising figure really, they just don't give a shit about him.


----------



## Riklet (Apr 19, 2017)

What about focusing on poliies and politics, getting out into poorer areas, talking to people etc then? Not just jeremy funking codbin.

Oh wait this is the Labour party we are talking about.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 19, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> The worst thing about all this is I've got work on the 9th of June so I won't even be able to stay up all night getting shitface drunk as per usual


I'm due to be in hospital on June 9th to have an operation on my knackers. There's a metaphor for us all in that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that there is any sort of strategy electorally that can forestall disaster for Labour. Corbyn is seriously hated by a lot of people, and the vast majority of those who do not hate him aren't supporters, he isn't a polarising figure really, *they just don't give a shit about him*.



Which illustrates the problems we face. Not enough people like him, not enough people give a shit about him. Many people are to busy deciding whether or not they like him to realise they need to be giving a shit about themselves/others and choosing based on policies that actually mean something/affect us, not because they dislike his face or whether or not they find him charismatic.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 19, 2017)

PursuedByBears said:


> I'm due to be in hospital on June 9th to have an operation on my knackers. There's a metaphor for us all in that.



Can we all come? Sounds more fun than the election.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 19, 2017)

PursuedByBears said:


> I'm due to be in hospital on June 9th to have an operation on my knackers. There's a metaphor for us all in that.



Are you saying you think it will be a hung parliament?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 19, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Can we all come? Sounds more fun than the election.


you say that, but if we all turned up for the same surgery it would still be a load of old bollocks.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 19, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Are you saying you think it will be a hung parliament?


Incredibly well hung, yes.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This really is going to be a total disaster



Something completely expected can't be a disaster. The polling would have been a similar in 2020.

That's if we haven't all gone in a nuclear flash by then.


----------



## Lurdan (Apr 19, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Are you saying you think it will be a hung parliament?


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 19, 2017)

Lurdan said:


>


Class War on the ball as usual. This patronising, simpleton crap had so much influence on the working class in 2010 and 2015.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 19, 2017)

So I looked up my local labour party, I don't know, I'm not a member but anyway where I live is a fairly w/c area, heavy Leave support during the ref. and over the last 40 years or so it's swung from labour to tory like a barometer of the nation. Since 2010, tory, 1992-2010 Labour. '79-'92 tory.

Anyway, I thought I'd look the local branch up. Turns out they've some ex Lib Dem voter called Jo McCarron standing and on the info page I found this:


Which kind of says it all. I'm wondering if it's not even incompetence but deliberate.
I had been thinking .. maybe .. of helping out because they could win here if they got out and said the right stuff. But there's fuck all to help _with_, and from the look of the candidate she's not someone I'd even want to help. Fuck it. I don't know what to do. I may even end up not voting at all, which would be a first for me.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 19, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that there is any sort of strategy electorally that can forestall disaster for Labour. Corbyn is seriously hated by a lot of people, and the vast majority of those who do not hate him aren't supporters, he isn't a polarising figure really, they just don't give a shit about him.


It's the endgame for the 'Labour left' strategy. Finally.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

PursuedByBears said:


> Incredibly well hung, yes.



Assuming the operation is a success.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

marty21 said:


> Corbyn should promise to cancel Brexit or at least promise another referendum on it . What are the chances of some voting alliances , lib dems /greens/ Labour agreeing to stand aside to let them win seats off the Tories ?



Absolutely none, next.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

agricola said:


> No, he should point out - at every given opportunity - the massive irresponsibility in the Tories taking six weeks out of an already shortened Brexit negotiation period to have an election that is solely in their political interests.



In fairness, no bugger on the continent was going to get into serious 'Brexit negotiations' before the results of the French and  German elections are known.
All she is doing is putting us in the same race, come the end of the summer all three major nations will know who they are going to be talking too.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Hitting the ground running.


Would be happier if he just hit the ground hard! or are we expected to forget his parties previous?


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Me and Mrs S. are hoping to be in Greece around the date. By coincidence we were in Greece when that referendum business was on last year. So listening on the crackly radio, quaffing mythos and ouzo seems as chilled an atmosphere as possible to be in.


Taking advantage of the Greeks being ground to dust under the EUs heel shame on you


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> Taking advantage of the Greeks being ground to dust under the EUs heel shame on you



Maybe the Greeks are taking advantage of his alcoholism. A win-win.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> Would be happier if he just hit the ground hard! or are we expected to forget his parties previous?



"Only the Liberal Democrats can prevent a Conservative majority".

Yeah, cos it's holding on to those nine seats that will make the difference


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> It's the endgame for the 'Labour left' strategy. Finally.


FMSWs, labour has been fucked since Eighty Four when Kinnock and Co sold out the NUM and the unions, what's happened since is no big surprise, a pseudo  Labour Party of Neo Tories who hijacked the history and loyalty of the WC to elect a bunch of self serving arseholes who didn't have the connections to get elected in the constituencies  where they would have felt more  properly comfortable.
CONNC, just what was TB doing getting elected in County Durham, when the leafy SE would have been more his true heartland.
Bastards, all of em


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> "Only the Liberal Democrats can prevent a Conservative majority".
> 
> Yeah, cos it's holding on to those nine seats that will make the difference


They will end up on about the same, mebbes losing one,tories are going to walk it.
Conflicting on a personal bias, as I can never vote for them, but as a committed leaver, it's a bastard, Corbyn could have made a huge difference, too late now.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> FMSWs, labour has been fucked since Eighty Four when Kinnock and Co sold out the NUM and the unions, what's happened since is no big surprise, a pseudo  Labour Party of Neo Tories who hijacked the history and loyalty of the WC to elect a bunch of self serving arseholes who didn't have the connections to get elected in the constituencies  where they would have felt more  properly comfortable.
> CONNC, just what was TB doing getting elected in County Durham, when the leafy SE would have been more his true heartland.
> Bastards, all of em


The Labour Party is just a pragmatic machine designed to win local and national elections. It has always been designed to work within the prevailing political and economic consensus.
The Labour left is no more 'real' Labour than the Labour right. Its main function has been to inject some (vague) ideology into a mostly non-ideological party. There is no 'real' Labour, and New Labour were not Tories in disguise-they were just working within the existing consensus to achieve aims that could be construed as in the Labour tradition. It doesn't matter that the result was a deepening of the neo-liberal agenda. It was all that was available to them at the time.

Blair belongs in Labour as much as Benn did.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> They will end up on about the same, mebbes losing one,tories are going to walk it.
> Conflicting on a personal bias, as I can never vote for them, but as a committed leaver, it's a bastard, Corbyn could have made a huge difference, too late now.


How could Corbyn have made a huge difference?


----------



## agricola (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> In fairness, no bugger on the continent was going to get into serious 'Brexit negotiations' before the results of the French and  German elections are known.
> All she is doing is putting us in the same race, come the end of the summer all three major nations will know who they are going to be talking too.



Not sure how true that is - if the plan was always to start negotiations after the French and German elections, why on earth would you trigger Article 50 two months beforehand?


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

coley said:


> Taking advantage of the Greeks being ground to dust under the EUs heel shame on you



Enomeni me Hellas!


----------



## newbie (Apr 20, 2017)

agricola said:


> Not sure how true that is - if the plan was always to start negotiations after the French and German elections, why on earth would you trigger Article 50 two months beforehand?


in order to settle that question long enough before the election that it won't be much of a distraction.


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 20, 2017)

Did anyone catch Paul Mason on Tuesday's Newsnight?

Kate Hoey is his MP.

He's planning on voting tactically.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 20, 2017)

Does that mean he's voting Lib Dem then?! 

He seems to be arguing both against a 'progressive alliance' but then tactically for a 'Labour led coalition' all in one piece here...
Coalition, collaboration and tactical voting: that’s how to halt hard Brexit | Paul Mason


----------



## cantsin (Apr 20, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> What did you do? The people you know?



Fook all - we went leafleting ( for council elections ) yesterday evening, met up with with ward activists, very sound little bunch, who were visibly pleased to have 3 more bods show up, but can't pretend that amounts to actually 'doing' anything... going through the motions ( and not just cos no Lab candidate has ever won anything down here, with century old tradition of Lib Dem vs Tory) .


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 20, 2017)

With the social housing stuff I've been involved with, I haven't met a single current Labour member! Plenty of lapsed ones as you'd expect who have either stopped voting or flirted with Greens, UKIP or TUSC, etc. That said, we're fighting against mostly Labour local councils anyway, so perhaps people are predictably being quiet about it!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

With May running on ending freedom of movement as an electoral platform, she is going to have both the Very Sensible Liberal vote and the hard right vote locked up. Total disaster unfurling right in front of all of us.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

I don't see her losing this at all. 

It's a golden opportunity for the Blairites to ditch Corbyn, they must be in clover!

And yet people who "normally vote Labour" keep telling me that they'd rather May than vote for Corbyn. They'd rather the austerity privatisatoin and genocide of the poorest and most vulnerable continue unabated, than perhaps give a well meaning mild socialist old man the time of day. As if Corbyn is secretly Satan's left bollock or something.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> With May running on ending freedom of movement as an electoral platform, she is going to have both the Very Sensible Liberal vote and the hard right vote locked up. Total disaster unfurling right in front of all of us.


was that ever news?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I don't see her losing this at all.
> 
> It's a golden opportunity for the Blairites to ditch Corbyn, they must be in clover!
> 
> And yet people who "normally vote Labour" keep telling me that they'd rather May than vote for Corbyn. They'd rather the austerity privatisatoin and genocide of the poorest and most vulnerable continue unabated, than perhaps give a well meaning mild socialist old man the time of day. As if Corbyn is secretly Satan's left bollock or something.


the road to hell is paved with good intentions


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> How could Corbyn have made a huge difference?


Presumably by arguing a left wing working class case for exit and thus stolen the march on the right wing. This would have given him a huge groundswell of support, rather than being led by the liars in the Prattle Bus and their promises of millions to the NHS (aka the Tories' back pockets)


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> the road to hell is paved with good intentions


The road to hell has already been built, it's just a question of how quickly you want to get there!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

I don't disagree that a Corbyn led Lexit campaign would have been electorally, and frankly politically since it aligns with my own politics, the right thing to do but I have no idea how it would have been politically feasible within the Labour Party. It just couldn't have happened like that, only a minority of what is already a tiny sliver of pro-Corbyn MPs in the PLP have a critical view of the EU.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

At the moment very little is feasible with the Labour party. Those that are in safe seats who hate their leader won't support him, the media hates him, and nothing productive can get done because he won't quit now (or post disaster, I suspect), and nobody trusts him. It is complete ideological gridlock.

However, I do think people should, where possible, vote - somehow - so we can oust these bastards. I personally do not subscribe to the notion that a Corbyn government would be worse than the misery we have now. 

And that misery is likely to get worse as the cuts are only now beginning to bite from Osborg's last round of cuts.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't disagree that a Corbyn led Lexit campaign would have been electorally, and frankly politically since it aligns with my own politics, the right thing to do but I have no idea how it would have been politically feasible within the Labour Party. It just couldn't have happened like that, only a minority of what is already a tiny sliver of pro-Corbyn MPs in the PLP have a critical view of the EU.



No, it wouldn't have been feasible at all, and even it had been, I think some people are overstating the impact it would have had (talking in terms of support for LP rather than referendum result).

Because several comments on this thread, and what I've heard from several LP canvassers, suggest that a lot of working-class, naturally-Labour-supporting people do not like or trust Corbyn, and are saying either they won't be attracted back, or they will stop voting Labour for the first time, specifically because of him.

Of course that's frustrating, when on the face of it his policies would be better for the people who are saying this than what the other parties have on offer or what the LP itself has put forward for decades, but if its representative of a wider view of Corbyn - that he's a right-on, politically correct champagne socialist, to caricature it - a decent Lexit campaign might have helped but may also have been just as distrusted as his weak-arsed Remain stance was.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

I'm struck by the number of people who used to say that they hated all politicians, Tory and Labour alike, because 'they're all the same.' Now that there's a Labour leader who, for good or ill, sounds a bit different, they're inevitably swallowing the media line that he's another Michael Foot and a disaster in the making. And there the Labour left strategy crumbles.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Labour has no one else that can lead it. If they ever succeed in crowbarring Corbyn out (and he may well win another leadership election), who else? Mrs Balls? Tom Watson? Who isn't tainted goods at this point?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Labour has no one else that can lead it. If they ever succeed in crowbarring Corbyn out (and he may well win another leadership election), who else? Mrs Balls? Tom Watson? Who isn't tainted goods at this point?



Since the Corbyn project has failed to get the threshold on nominations lowered it certainly won't be anyone on the left.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

they should get Skinner to do the job for lols


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 20, 2017)

19force8 said:


> Did anyone catch Paul Mason on Tuesday's Newsnight?
> 
> Kate Hoey is his MP.
> 
> He's planning on voting tactically.



I did see it. I thought 3 things:

1. He stated everyone should vote tactically for anti Tory anti Brexit candidates, but then later clarified it didn't mean that it applied to him.
2. His analysis essentially involves jettisoning working class labour pro leave voters and trying to build a coalition of the young remainer types. In other words an explicit rejection of class politics in favour of a lib/lab/nationalist lash up.
3. I genuinely wonder if he's okay? I used to have respect for him as someone who didn't always get it right but at least was interested in idea, wanted to think seriously about progressive politics and was someone who recognised that current left identitarian nostrums, formations etc were dead.

He seems to have utterly lost the plot.

ETA to add - he also stated that he had no doubt that Labour would win.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Labour has no one else that can lead it.


you're using 'lead' in its loosest possible sense i see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I'm struck by the number of people who used to say that they hated all politicians, Tory and Labour alike, because 'they're all the same.'


and what are they saying now, if they no longer say they hate all politicians?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they should get Skinner to do the job for lols


Maybe they'll do it like Have I Got News For You, with guest leaders each week. Kirsty Young one week, Roy Chubby Brown the next.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Labour has no one else that can lead it. If they ever succeed in crowbarring Corbyn out (and he may well win another leadership election), who else? Mrs Balls? Tom Watson? Who isn't tainted goods at this point?



I haven't really been paying attention, but isn't Mr Balls now some sort of reality TV national treasure? And isn't there some sort of general election coming up?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I haven't really been paying attention, but isn't Mr Balls now some sort of reality TV national treasure? And isn't there some sort of general election coming up?


it helps if you can read the post. ed balls is MR balls. yvette cooper is MRS balls.

do pay attention.


----------



## sunnysidedown (Apr 20, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> He seems to have utterly lost the plot.



Mason should stick to playing his Northern Soul records and dancing around his kitchen, in his socks.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I did see it. I thought 3 things:
> 
> 1. He stated everyone should vote tactically for anti Tory anti Brexit candidates, but then later clarified it didn't mean that it applied to him.
> 2. His analysis essentially involves jettisoning working class labour pro leave voters and trying to build a coalition of the young remainer types. In other words an explicit rejection of class politics in favour of a lib/lab/nationalist lash up.
> ...


He seems to have become an outright fuckwit in the last 18 months. Started for me with all that post capitalism stuff, but keen Mason watchers probably detected it before.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

This 'it isn't a foregone conclusion' line is painful


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it helps if you can read the post. ed balls is MR balls. yvette cooper is MRS balls.
> 
> do pay attention.



Well, I did say I hadn't really been paying attention. But in future I will try to remember that if someone mentions a thing then it is not possible to mention a related thing without a useless piece of stray spunk popping up to comment on your inadequacy. Thanks as always.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This 'it isn't a foregone conclusion' line is painful


if it emerges that theresa may pegs pigs for fun then perhaps it isn't a foregone conclusion


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 20, 2017)

Well the Tories will get in and fucking crush the NHS and every other bit of what remains of the Welfare State. Labour will oust Corbyn and come to resemble the Democrats in the USA. The gap between the rich and poor will widen to Victorian proportions and the English will continue to support the Tories out of some Stockholm syndrome style worship of the toffs. Only good thing to come out of this is the break up of the UK.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if it emerges that theresa may pegs pigs for fun then perhaps it isn't a foregone conclusion



Regardless, you don't say it if you are trying to project strength and confidence. Might as well say 'awfully sorry for still existing, it will be over soon'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Well, I did say I hadn't really been paying attention. But in future I will try to remember that if someone mentions a thing then it is not possible to mention a related thing without a useless piece of stray spunk popping up to comment on your inadequacy. Thanks as always.


yeh. you just don't like being caught out, and shown to be the pathetic inadequate you are.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 20, 2017)

I'm at the point of hoping the French will vote to destroy the EU by the end of the month (by voting Melenchon, not Le Pen, of course). It would at least liven things up.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Well the Tories will get in and fucking crush the NHS and every other bit of what remains of the Welfare State. Labour will oust Corbyn and come to resemble the Democrats in the USA. The gap between the rich and poor will widen to Victorian proportions and the English will continue to support the Tories out of some Stockholm syndrome style worship of the toffs. Only good thing to come out of this is the break up of the UK.


I've got two months to figure out how to get the fuck out of Britain on june 9th.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I'm at the point of hoping the French will vote to destroy the EU by the end of the month (by voting Melenchon, not Le Pen, of course). It would at least liven things up.


if its melenchon, how will french liberals get to call the french working class thick racists?


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I'm at the point of hoping the French will vote to destroy the EU by the end of the month (by voting Melenchon, not Le Pen, of course). It would at least liven things up.



Could happen, although you're mishearing Mélenchon if you think destroying the EU is on his agenda.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Could happen, although you're mishearing Mélenchon if you think destroying the EU is on his agenda.



negotiate a “democratic reconstruction” of European treaties. In case of failure, withdraw from the European Union. Several conditions attached to remaining in the euro. Pull out of the EU’s Stability Pact and fight for an overhaul of sovereign debt. Stop free-market policies which “ruin developing economies and destroy European industry”. Propose an alliance with southern European countries to counter austerity. Respect Brexit without “punishing” the UK for its decision to leave the EU, but withdraw from the “Le Touquet” accord which places British border controls in France.
given the EU won't roll over on any of those points?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> if its melenchon, how will french liberals get to call the french working class thick racists?



As with Bernie Sanders, I am sure that they will manage it.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> if its melenchon, how will french liberals get to call the french working class thick racists?



Where there's a will there's a way.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> negotiate a “democratic reconstruction” of European treaties. In case of failure, withdraw from the European Union. Several conditions attached to remaining in the euro. Pull out of the EU’s Stability Pact and fight for an overhaul of sovereign debt. Stop free-market policies which “ruin developing economies and destroy European industry”. Propose an alliance with southern European countries to counter austerity. Respect Brexit without “punishing” the UK for its decision to leave the EU, but withdraw from the “Le Touquet” accord which places British border controls in France.
> given the EU won't roll over on any of those points?



I actually think it might. Come what may, EU reform is going to happen. Mélenchon is absolutely committed to going to Brussels and stamping his feet a bit and nothing more. It's clear from his speeches that he is not in favour of France leaving the EU or the Euro.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

'Ex-Le Pen voters opting for Mélenchon proves that he is the true racist candidate', there I've got the basis for at least 50 liberal thinkpieces


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> 'Ex-Le Pen voters opting for Mélenchon proves that he is the true racist candidate', there I've got the basis for at least 50 liberal thinkpieces


written by as many liberal ringpieces.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> As with Bernie Sanders, I am sure that they will manage it.



misogyny for not voting for Le Pen


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> misogyny for not voting for Le Pen


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> misogyny for not voting for Le Pen


6 paragraphs, the guardian, hadley freeman


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they should get Skinner to do the job for lols


They should get Skinner to do the job.

No lols. For serious. I was trying to think of the most Mélenchon-like Labour MP, and that's the name I came up with.

Anyhoo, not going to prejudge what Corbyn does over the next six weeks. He may surprise us.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They should get Skinner to do the job.
> 
> No lols. For serious. I was trying to think of the most Mélenchon-like Labour MP, and that's the name I came up with.
> 
> Anyhoo, not going to prejudge what Corbyn does over the next six weeks. He may surprise us.


Skinner voted against calling an election.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


>



just needs to tilt her arm a bit so its palm downwards....


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Skinner voted against calling an election.


Good.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Corbyn's speech today was good I think, very Iglesias/Sanders-esque. Then again _I _would think that


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Corbyn's speech today was good I think, very Iglesias/Sanders-esque. Then again _I _would think that


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


>


Can she also overcome her virulent xenophobia?


----------



## purenarcotic (Apr 20, 2017)

I can't wait fir all the liberal telling everyone to register to vote and vote, no matter who you vote for but then bleat and moan because the result hasn't gone their way. I'm still recovering from this absurdity from Brexit.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> He seems to have become an outright fuckwit in the last 18 months. Started for me with all that post capitalism stuff, but keen Mason watchers probably detected it before.



I think it was earlier - the significant amount of time he spent with young Syriza and Podemos activists seems to have completely disorientated him. His idea of young 'networked' individuals as the future for the left seems to have found a home in Momentum politics. Even then though he's a bit like a trendy lecturer who tries to get grime music.  

His dismissal of the class he professes to come from hit the bottom of the barrel when he described UKIP voters in Stoke as the sort of people who "steal your bike" and who didn't share the mysterious class solidarity he had detected among Labour voters. It was clear his utter detachment from the working class and collpase into middle class liberalism was complete at that point.  

I've tried to read his post capitalism book three times but its impossible to shake the feeling that you are bascially reading some half baked utopian fantasy novel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think it was earlier - the significant amount of time he spent with young Syriza and Podemos activists seems to have completely disorientated him. His idea of young 'networked' individuals as the future for the left seems to have found a home in Momentum politics. Even then though he's a bit like a trendy lecturer who tries to get grime music.
> 
> His dismissal of the class he professes to come from hit the bottom of the barrel when he described UKIP voters in Stoke as the sort of people who "steal your bike" and who didn't share the mysterious class solidarity he had detected among Labour voters. It was clear his utter detachment from the working class and collpase into middle class liberalism was complete at that point.
> 
> I've tried to read his post capitalism book three times but its impossible to shake the feeling that you are bascially reading some half baked utopian fantasy novel.


it's from when he received the first royalty cheque for his book 'live working or die fighting'


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2017)

Le Pen: champion of women everywhere, especially blondes. Jesus that's embarassing. It looks like the Atlantic have changed that article's title now so it says 'How being a woman helped le pen' instead.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Maybe they'll do it like Have I Got News For You, with guest leaders each week. Kirsty Young one week, Roy Chubby Brown the next.



But it'll just end up being Alexander fucking Armstrong more often than not


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> This 'it isn't a foregone conclusion' line is painful



I know, I honestly wonder if the unexpected results of the EU Referendum and Trump have emboldened them to think they may well storm to victory too!


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I actually think it might. Come what may, EU reform is going to happen. Mélenchon is absolutely committed to going to Brussels and stamping his feet a bit and nothing more. It's clear from his speeches that he is not in favour of France leaving the EU or the Euro.



I'm less convinced that you that the EU would roll over on any of this, but I think that anything that weakens the edifice and opens up conversations about the future that aren't Hard Brexit or some dismal liberal undemocratic return to an unreformed EU can only be a good thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I actually think it might. Come what may, EU reform is going to happen. Mélenchon is absolutely committed to going to Brussels and stamping his feet a bit and nothing more. It's clear from his speeches that he is not in favour of France leaving the EU or the Euro.


Not what I've taken from the speeches I've read/heard. He wants a radically reformed EU, and if not, he wants France out of the EU in order to forge new international relations - it must change or die, basically. 

As to what he would actually be able to do if he were elected, and if, as is likely, he had to appoint a pretty hostile government to preside over, that's another question entirely.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Maybe they'll do it like Have I Got News For You, with guest leaders each week. Kirsty Young one week, Roy Chubby Brown the next.



So they'll cycle between some suave tit who can keep the show on the road, and some decent likeable sort who makes an incompetent shambles of it.

How will we know if they're doing it or not?


----------



## Chz (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Lib Dems want to live under a Tory government


It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

May and her team's allusion to cutting foreign aid and removing the 'triple lock' on pensions has got all her supporters and media gleeful.
The reduction in foreign aid will no doubt please a lot of those who voted leave too.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> I'm less convinced that you that the EU would roll over on any of this, but I think that anything that weakens the edifice and opens up conversations about the future that aren't Hard Brexit or some dismal liberal undemocratic return to an unreformed EU can only be a good thing.



It depends what you mean by "roll over". Clearly Mélenchon is not going to be standing in the National Assembly waving a newly-ratified EU treaty by day ten. But, regardless of who is president, key things like the growth and stability pact will be up for discussion in due course. And the president of France will be influential in that process. Mélenchon would be up against Merkel (presumably), but he also would not be in the position of an isolated extremist, and and don't think it's conceivable that he would come away with nothing.

But yes, Mélenchon winning would certainly count as an event for the EU. Just not its downfall or even any real crisis.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.



I don't think anyone's calling people Tories for voting Lib Dem on the basis that they should be voting Labour instead cos Labour's great. It's more that voting Lib Dem is a fucking stupid response to the fact that Labour's shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.


are you sure? the tories have proposed some pretty fucking destructive policies in their time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I don't think anyone's calling people Tories for voting Lib Dem on the basis that they should be voting Labour instead cos Labour's great. It's more that voting Lib Dem is a fucking stupid response to


to anything


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I don't think anyone's calling people Tories for voting Lib Dem on the basis that they should be voting Labour instead cos Labour's great. It's more that voting Lib Dem is a fucking stupid response to the fact that Labour's shit.



Consensus seems to be that if you vote tory you're a cunt, if you vote lib dem you're a stupid cunt, and if you vote for labour you're just stupid.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.



Which one is that then?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.



How did that lib dem vote go for you then?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Consensus seems to be that if you vote tory you're a cunt, if you vote lib dem you're a stupid cunt, and if you vote for labour you're just stupid.



So we've established that the Lib Dem supporters are the worst of the lot, then?


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Brexit isn't even a policy


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> So we've established that the Lib Dem supporters are the worst of the lot, then?



I don't think that they are actually worse than Tories, but perhaps marginally mroe annoying.


----------



## brogdale (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that they are actually worse than Tories, but perhaps marginally mroe annoying.


Certainly less honest.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that they are actually worse than Tories, but perhaps marginally mroe annoying.



Hammond vs. Clarkson, innit. On some level, the big ugly racist bully's just doing exactly what you expect of him. It's the sneaky little turd without any real convictions of his own, trying to curry favour with the bully, who's really contemptuous.


----------



## Chz (Apr 20, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> How did that lib dem vote go for you then?


Kept the seat from going Tory, so... Pretty well, actually. Not that he needed my help, he managed to keep the seat despite my vote for Labour in 2015.


----------



## agricola (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Hammond vs. Clarkson, innit. On some level, the big ugly racist bully's just doing exactly what you expect of him. It's the sneaky little turd without any real convictions of his own, trying to curry favour with the bully, who's really contemptuous.



Are you suggesting this is going to end with them being packed into a rocket-powered car and sent down a bumpy bit of tarmac?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> Kept the seat from going Tory, so... Pretty well, actually. Not that he needed my help, he managed to keep the seat despite my vote for Labour in 2015.



Lib Dem's didn't prop up the Tories in government in 2010 then and help to enact lots of destructive policies. I must have misremembered.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> The big thing that could shake things up is if May is forced into conceding that she intends to more-or-less retain free movement of people (which she certainly does - it's the whole reason for calling an election). I can't see it happening, since she will probably be able to lock herself in a cupboard for the duration and still be hailed by the media as history's greatest woman. But the EU27 are meeting at the end of April and that might possibly bring things to a head. Outside chance, though, imo.


I doubt it's that locked down as yet. It's more about May having a mandate and plenty of wiggle room. 

I'd ignore any Tory manifesto promises on quotas immigration etc. They've always been broken in the past. Implementing a visa scheme really doesn't mean much practically beyond more red tape. The UK already has one non-EU people and more of those come in and stay than folk from the EU. 

In reality any attempt to reduce mass migration is unlikely to be abrupt because parts of the UK economy fairly obviously have come to rely on migrants. What's more likely is freedom of movement notionally ends but there will still be lots of movement from the EU via a very open visa regime. Voila: control has been taken back. The EU27 would probably be open to some other transitional arrangements provided that's the understanding.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> So we've established that the Lib Dem supporters are the worst of the lot, then?



Different coloured deckchairs, same Titanic.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Hammond vs. Clarkson, innit. On some level, the big ugly racist bully's just doing exactly what you expect of him. It's the sneaky little turd without any real convictions of his own, trying to curry favour with the bully, who's really contemptuous.


in this analogy James May is the green party, affable middle class bumbler inexplicably happy to spend his time working with complete wankers


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

The Tories are so hung up on the arguments of Hayek and Friedman that they are juggling with how to have free movement of people, that serves their purpose. Though that goes against Friedman's logic of it being impossible to have both free immigration and a welfare state.
It simply boils down to the fact that free movement of workers keeps wages low. So they will, following this train of thought, dismantle and remove the welfare state. It is their dogmatic path and it will be devastating.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.


TBF, Labour are damned either way. If they don't support Brexit they are accused of being out of touch EU loving immigrant supporting scum. If they support it...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories are so hung up on the arguments of Hayek and Friedman that they are juggling with how to have free movement of people, that serves their purpose. Though that goes against Friedman's logic of it being impossible to have both free immigration and a welfare state.
> It simply boils down to the fact that free movement of workers keeps wages low. So they will, following this train of thought, dismantle and remove the welfare state. It is their dogmatic path and it will be devastating.


Great track record in being right, that Friedman. 

My impression of the likes of May and Hammond is that they are not dogmatic Thatcherites. They're more old-school patrician tories, not particularly interested in theory. Might be wrong, but I've never read anything to suggest otherwise.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories are so hung up on the arguments of Hayek and Friedman that they are juggling with how to have free movement of people, that serves their purpose. Though that goes against Friedman's logic of it being impossible to have both free immigration and a welfare state.
> It simply boils down to the fact that free movement of workers keeps wages low. So they will, following this train of thought, dismantle and remove the welfare state. It is their dogmatic path and it will be devastating.



Thanks to how shit our politics is now, opposition to these sorts of visas is going to consist of 'lol I don't know what coffee is'


----------



## Raheem (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not what I've taken from the speeches I've read/heard. He wants a radically reformed EU, and if not, he wants France out of the EU in order to forge new international relations - it must change or die, basically.
> 
> As to what he would actually be able to do if he were elected, and if, as is likely, he had to appoint a pretty hostile government to preside over, that's another question entirely.



On a superficial level, Mélenchon is like a mirror-image Cameron in this regard. You can't propose to bring about EU reform without saying what will happen if you don't get your way. But, like Cameron, Mélenchon is explicit about what he wants and doesn't want. Although, tbf, less so the further you go back in time. Or, if you go further back, he campaigned for the Maastricht Treaty and the euro, so don't be mistaken about who he is.

The differences with Cameron's situation are that the whole thing is not a charade for Mélenchon and that the political context is different. He has no Tory right to force his hand.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

burnham taking a leaf from the owen smith playbook there. Keen instincts


----------



## Chz (Apr 20, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Lib Dem's didn't prop up the Tories in government in 2010 then and help to enact lots of destructive policies. I must have misremembered.


And? I live in an area where the Labour candidate struggled to pull 4k votes vs the 17k and 22k the Tories and Libs pulled. I'm lucky the guy won in 2015 or I'd have felt a right mug for voting Lab and handing the seat to the Tories. Thankfully, for every infuriated LD voter that left him an infuriated Tory voter went UKIP.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> On a superficial level, Mélenchon is like a mirror-image Cameron in this regard. You can't propose to bring about EU reform without saying what will happen if you don't get your way. But, like Cameron, Mélenchon is explicit about what he wants and doesn't want. Although, tbf, less so the further you go back in time. Or, if you go further back, he campaigned for the Maastricht Treaty and the euro, so don't be mistaken about who he is.
> 
> The differences with Cameron's situation are that the whole thing is not a charade for Mélenchon and that the political context is different. He has no Tory right to force his hand.


tbf the main difference, if Melenchon is elected, will be a practical one due to the French system. He'll face a shitstorm to push his reforms through.

As for him having supported Maastricht and the euro, well both were rather a long time ago now. He's allowed to change his position as he sees the consequences of these actions play out. He has been extremely vocal in his criticism of the Lisbon Treaty, which is perhaps more relevant here in deciding 'who he is' because it relates directly to his anti-austerity platform.


----------



## Plumdaff (Apr 20, 2017)

Raheem said:


> But yes, Mélenchon winning would certainly count as an event for the EU. Just not its downfall or even any real crisis.



You don't think the EU is in crisis? I think the EU is teetering....it's an insolvent model based on permanent crisis in Southern Europe.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> And? I live in an area where the Labour candidate struggled to pull 4k votes vs the 17k and 22k the Tories and Libs pulled. I'm lucky the guy won in 2015 or I'd have felt a right mug for voting Lab and handing the seat to the Tories. Thankfully, for every infuriated LD voter that left him an infuriated Tory voter went UKIP.



Yes what a fool you would have been to 'allow' one MP to win who would have voted for formation of a Tory government rather than the other one!!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> You don't think the EU is in crisis? I think the EU is teetering....it's an insolvent model based on permanent crisis in Southern Europe.


I think you could make the argument that Mélenchon-style reform, which would directly address these failures, could actually be the only way to save the EU.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> You don't think the EU is in crisis? I think the EU is teetering....it's an insolvent model based on permanent crisis in Southern Europe.


I don't see it surviving a Frexit (I coined it first!) in anything resembling its current form


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't see it surviving a Frexit (I coined it first!) in anything resembling its current form



I see what you've done there!


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

The refusal by Corbyn and McDonnell to rule out second referendum seems like a continuation of policy prior to the election being called of desperately trying not to alienate leavers or remainers, but like previous policy will probably end up alienating both.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't see it surviving a Frexit (I coined it first!) in anything resembling its current form


 La Frortie?


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 20, 2017)

L'exit


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> L'exit


Nicely done.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Well the Tories will get in and fucking crush the NHS and every other bit of what remains of the Welfare State. Labour will oust Corbyn and come to resemble the Democrats in the USA. The gap between the rich and poor will widen to Victorian proportions and the English will continue to support the Tories out of some Stockholm syndrome style worship of the toffs. Only good thing to come out of this is the break up of the UK.



Why is the UK breaking up a good thing?


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think it was earlier - the significant amount of time he spent with young Syriza and Podemos activists seems to have completely disorientated him. His idea of young 'networked' individuals as the future for the left seems to have found a home in Momentum politics. Even then though he's a bit like a trendy lecturer who tries to get grime music.
> 
> His dismissal of the class he professes to come from hit the bottom of the barrel when he described UKIP voters in Stoke as the sort of people who "steal your bike" and who didn't share the mysterious class solidarity he had detected among Labour voters. It was clear his utter detachment from the working class and collpase into middle class liberalism was complete at that point.
> 
> I've tried to read his post capitalism book three times but its impossible to shake the feeling that you are bascially reading some half baked utopian fantasy novel.



Momentum here is far from the 'young networked individuals' though identity politics, palestine, etc still seem to be key interests.


----------



## Chz (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Yes what a fool you would have been to 'allow' one MP to win who would have voted for formation of a Tory government rather than the other one!!


Rabid frothing is never going to convince the swing voters, you know. I just don't have the supplies on hand for a violent overthrow of the system, so that's going to have to do, I'm afraid. Political parties exist to their own end, Labour doesn't care about you or me either. To be fair, I never liked that Clegg guy and should've known better. I think they should've kept Kennedy, even if he was an alcoholic.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> Rabid frothing is never going to convince the swing voters, you know. I just don't have the supplies on hand for a violent overthrow of the system, so that's going to have to do, I'm afraid. Political parties exist to their own end, Labour doesn't care about you or me either. To be fair, I never liked that Clegg guy and should've known better. I think they should've kept Kennedy, even if he was an alcoholic.



Description of basic political realities = frothing


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2017)

treelover said:


> Why is the UK breaking up a good thing?


The EU?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> Kennedy, even if he was an alcoholic.


he liked a drink but that 'tired and emotional' speech was not drink, it was recent bereavment iirc


----------



## killer b (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> he liked a drink but that 'tired and emotional' speech was not drink, it was recent bereavment iirc


you're kidding. He killed himself with the booze ffs.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> he liked a drink but that 'tired and emotional' speech was not drink, it was recent bereavment iirc



He was a broken man in a tough world.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Great track record in being right, that Friedman.
> 
> My impression of the likes of May and Hammond is that they are not dogmatic Thatcherites. They're more old-school patrician tories, not particularly interested in theory. Might be wrong, but I've never read anything to suggest otherwise.


apart from there being nothing patrician about theresa may


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> Rabid frothing is never going to convince the swing voters, you know. I just don't have the supplies on hand for a violent overthrow of the system, so that's going to have to do, I'm afraid. Political parties exist to their own end, Labour doesn't care about you or me either. To be fair, I never liked that Clegg guy and should've known better. I think they should've kept Kennedy, even if he was an alcoholic.


i think they should have kept kennedy because he was an alcoholick. just look how they've fared under sober leaders.



on second thoughts they should always have sober leaders


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 20, 2017)

Plumdaff said:


> You don't think the EU is in crisis? I think the EU is teetering....it's an insolvent model based on permanent crisis in Southern Europe.



  But what's the alternative.  I don't see a socialist utopia as likely.  Instead the multinationals will have more power and we'll get screwed more by them.  And workers will have their rights eroded


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Thanks to how shit our politics is now, opposition to these sorts of visas is going to consist of 'lol I don't know what coffee is'




Because of course Andy Burnham probably only drinks Mellow Birds. Off a bin lid he found in a skip.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 20, 2017)

Tess D'Mayhem was not exactly landed gentry but nowhere near poor either, but has scrambled to her position using guile and ambition rather than outright intellect. You do not get a graduate role in cash payment clearing or back office at the BoE  if you are charismatic and a free thinker.Very dull person but very disciplined I would say


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> But what's the alternative.  I don't see a socialist utopia as likely.  Instead the multinationals will have more power and we'll get screwed more by them.  And workers will have their rights eroded


we didn't have a socialist utopia during the nigh on 200 years of labour struggles that secured workers rights in britain before the EU was even a thing


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 20, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Off a bin lid he found in a skip.



The hipster cunt.


----------



## rubbershoes (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> we didn't have a socialist utopia during the nigh on 200 years of labour struggles that secured workers rights in britain before the EU was even a thing




Let's see how much those rights are rolled back by the tories after 2019  to "become competitive"


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> L'exit



Superb


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> Let's see how much those rights are rolled back by the tories after 2019  to "become competitive"


rolled back's what you do with carpets to expose the floorboards beneath. ripped up is what you do to floorboards, and what the tories will do to the rights.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> it helps if you can read the post. ed balls is MR balls. yvette cooper is MRS balls.


and distant cousin Ophelia remains tight lipped about the whole shebang.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The refusal by Corbyn and McDonnell to rule out second referendum seems like a continuation of policy prior to the election being called of desperately trying not to alienate leavers or remainers, but like previous policy will probably end up alienating both.


Yep. Like others I've criticised corbyn/momentum for not building a left project/movement inside/outside the party, but this is also about being shit at _conventional_ politics.  If you play the Westminster game you have to have a clear line, a target audience and an actual strategy.  He was never going to win this election but it did at least offer an opportunity to say something _definite_.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Any truth to the notion May, who has health issues (and I do not take diabetes lightly neither), is finding the job incredibly taxing as a result?


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 20, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> The Tories are so hung up on the arguments of Hayek and Friedman that they are juggling with how to have free movement of people, that serves their purpose. Though that goes against Friedman's logic of it being impossible to have both free immigration and a welfare state.
> It simply boils down to the fact that free movement of workers keeps wages low. So they will, following this train of thought, dismantle and remove the welfare state. It is their dogmatic path and it will be devastating.


Tories would be for dismantling the welfare state even if there was negative immigration. 

It's been a while since I've heard a Tory mention Hayek. In the age of Central Banks endlessly pushing Quantitative Easing they tend to waving daffy papers from Cato or the Heritage Foundation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Any truth to the notion May, who has health issues (and I do not take diabetes lightly neither), is finding the job incredibly taxing as a result?


she's finding it incredibly taxing because she's a pathetick incompetent. and that's before you take any alleged health issues into account.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> and what are they saying now, if they no longer say they hate all politicians?


The usual 'unelectable leader blah, blah' stuff. Which is no doubt true, but, as I said, not what they were saying before.
I don't think people generally do hate politicians as much as they claim. It's just another one of those things people feel they have to say these days, like 'Money has ruined football,' or  'The more telly channels we get, the less there is to watch.' 

'Nobody represents me, but after careful consideration, I'll vote for somebody who doesn't represent me to represent me.'


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 20, 2017)

a much younger colleague of mine who was an LSE graduate had never heard of Hayek ( & he used to be on the staff there ! )


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> The usual 'unelectable leader blah, blah' stuff. Which is no doubt true, but, as I said, not what they were saying before.
> I don't think people generally do hate politicians as much as they claim. It's just another one of those things people feel they have to say these days, like 'Money has ruined football,' or  'The more telly channels we get, the less there is to watch.'
> 
> 'Nobody represents me, but after careful consideration, I'll vote for somebody who doesn't represent me to represent me.'


the 1990s are on the phone and want their cliches back.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> the 1990s are on the phone and want their cliches back.


I haven't really 'moved on,' since the 1990s.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> people feel they have to say these days


It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.

Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?

Ye sordid prostitutes have you not defil'd this sacred place, and turn'd the Lord's temple into a den of thieves, by your immoral principles and wicked practices? Ye are grown intolerably odious to the whole nation; you were deputed here by the people to get grievances redress'd, are yourselves gone! So! Take away that shining bauble there, and lock up the doors.



In the name of God, go!


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The refusal by Corbyn and McDonnell to rule out second referendum seems like a continuation of policy prior to the election being called of desperately trying not to alienate leavers or remainers, but like previous policy will probably end up alienating both.


How could that not piss off leave voters?  That's not just we might have left the EU by mistake, it's lets piss away our 2 year art 50 time making sure.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> Let's see how much those rights are rolled back by the tories after 2019  to "become competitive"



Holiday pay for part time workers could go, despite May going on about the JAM's.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 20, 2017)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

treelover said:


> Holiday pay for part time workers could go, despite going on about the JAM's.


yeh. perhaps you could point to a source saying this, or is it - as i suspect - a suggestion?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> It is high time for me to put an end to your sitting in this place, which you have dishonored by your contempt of all virtue, and defiled by your practice of every vice; ye are a factious crew, and enemies to all good government; ye are a pack of mercenary wretches, and would like Esau sell your country for a mess of pottage, and like Judas betray your God for a few pieces of money.
> 
> Is there a single virtue now remaining amongst you? Is there one vice you do not possess? Ye have no more religion than my horse; gold is your God; which of you have not barter'd your conscience for bribes? Is there a man amongst you that has the least care for the good of the Commonwealth?
> 
> ...


This was the speech Simon Cowell had lined up for Leona Lewis. In the end he went with 'congratulations, you are through to the next round'.


----------



## treelover (Apr 20, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> View attachment 104815



Plenty of suicides, etc under the Coalition/Tories due to sanctions.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)




----------



## weltweit (Apr 20, 2017)

Douglas Carswell is standing down and says he will support the conservatives in his former seat.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

weltweit said:


> Douglas Carswell is standing down and says he will support the conservatives in his former seat.


A modest man with much to be modest about.


----------



## rutabowa (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


>


This makes me very sad


----------



## mather (Apr 20, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think it was earlier - the significant amount of time he spent with young Syriza and Podemos activists seems to have completely disorientated him. His idea of young 'networked' individuals as the future for the left seems to have found a home in Momentum politics. Even then though he's a bit like a trendy lecturer who tries to get grime music.
> 
> His dismissal of the class he professes to come from hit the bottom of the barrel when he described UKIP voters in Stoke as the sort of people who "steal your bike" and who didn't share the mysterious class solidarity he had detected among Labour voters. It was clear his utter detachment from the working class and collpase into middle class liberalism was complete at that point.
> 
> I've tried to read his post capitalism book three times but its impossible to shake the feeling that you are bascially reading some half baked utopian fantasy novel.



Paul Mason covers his complete lack of real substantive politics with a lot of corporate style jargon and silly buzzwords that would not be out place in Silicon Valley. What does 'networked' even mean, having access to the internet? Well that is most people then these days, not just the 'cool kids'. I honestly think that besides having shit politics he is going through some type of midlife crisis. 

As for his comment about working class people in Stoke, I remember that and it was bloody disgusting. He really did show his true colours there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


>


yeh but that's only one frame from an animated gif, showing jc tripping the light fantastic in a routine which can only be compared to the jack rabbit slims twist contest in pulp fiction.


----------



## mather (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.



Are you really this stupid? It was Lib Dems that gave the Tories the keys to No. 10 in 2010 and Tim Farron has said he would be open to another coalition with them.

Tim Farron just refused to rule out another Conservative coalition


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 20, 2017)

Carswell failed to be quite 'send 'em backy' enough for UKIP and actually thought they meant all that anti-establishment crap, when being accepted by said establishment is what Farage and Banks crave.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 20, 2017)

'Convincing that you can run the state,' however, can only ever be done on the terms of the entrenched powers of that very same state and business. And so the whole thing begins again.


----------



## Mr Moose (Apr 20, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> 'Convincing that you can run the state,' however, can only ever be done on the terms of the entrenched powers of that very same state and business. And so the whole thing begins again.



Was something I was composing for another post, but got remembered by phone. Soz, wasn't relevant to the Carswell post.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Mr Moose said:


> Carswell failed to be quite 'send 'em backy' enough for UKIP and actually thought they meant all that anti-establishment crap, when being accepted by said establishment is what Farage and Banks crave.


Eyes didn't swivel in the right direction?


----------



## mather (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I don't think that they are actually worse than Tories, but perhaps marginally mroe annoying.



I do think they are worse, at least you know the Tories are the enemy and they make no attempt to make you think otherwise. The Lib Dems will pretend to be on your side while they ready themselves to stab you in the back.


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> The refusal by Corbyn and McDonnell to rule out second referendum seems like a continuation of policy prior to the election being called of desperately trying not to alienate leavers or remainers, but like previous policy will probably end up alienating both.


Jeremy Corbyn rules out offering second Brexit referendum 


wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate.


(right move actually)


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 20, 2017)

gosub said:


> Jeremy Corbyn rules out offering second Brexit referendum
> 
> 
> wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate.
> ...



That's Cambridge lost to the LDs again then...


----------



## Chz (Apr 20, 2017)

mather said:


> Are you really this stupid? It was Lib Dems that gave the Tories the keys to No. 10 in 2010 and Tim Farron has said he would be open to another coalition with them.
> 
> Tim Farron just refused to rule out another Conservative coalition


Stupid would be to rule such a thing out before the election's even happened. You need to see the results, you need to see what's on the table, etc, etc... It's just not a sane response for a party that will never be the overall winner to rule out such things. Possible exception for the SNP, because they actually don't give a damn what the rest of the country gets up to.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Random thought: this _feels_ very odd as a general election, given that it's almost entirely an unnecessary restatement of the brexit referendum. At this stage you'd be looking for all the shite and paraphernalia of the modern election, battle buses, manifestos etc. But all that seems irrelevant as does, well, the whole process.  We know the outcome both in terms of who runs the country and brexit. And even in terms of this being a sort of 2nd referendum by way of a general election it's distinctly odd.  On one side you have the tories and on the other the Libs and a few others seeking to benefit from pockets of remain-ery.  Labour has no real point of entry to the debate, no position around which to build a campaign. Unpredictable things may well happen and the EU negotiators could lob a few hand grenades into proceedings, but otherwise nothing will or can happen in terms of actual governance.  An election designed to kill labour off and secure May's advantage - the very thing the fixed parliament act was designed to stop.

Sorry - all very wordy and obvious - just feels ... odd. A general election in which neither the punters of the politicians will be thinking about it as such a thing.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Random thought: this _feels_ very odd as a general election, given that it's almost entirely an unnecessary restatement of the brexit referendum. At this stage you'd be looking for all the shite and paraphernalia of the modern election, battle buses, manifestos etc. But all that seems irrelevant as does, well, the whole process.  We know the outcome both in terms of who runs the country and brexit. And even in terms of this being a sort of 2nd referendum by way of a general election it's distinctly odd.  On one side you have the tories and on the other the Libs and a few others seeking to benefit from pockets of remain-ery.  Labour has no real point of entry to the debate, no position around which to build a campaign. Unpredictable things may well happen and the EU negotiators could lob a few hand grenades into proceedings, but otherwise nothing will or can happen in terms of actual governance.  An election designed to kill labour off and secure May's advantage - the very thing the fixed parliament act was designed to stop.
> 
> Sorry - all very wordy and obvious - just feels ... odd. A general election in which neither the punters of the politicians will be thinking about it as such a thing.


Another way of putting all that waffle would have been:
Proponents of liberal democracy give the election process a sacred status. If ever you wanted an example of elections being no more than a partisan tool to benefit those in power, this is it. It's a vicar's daughter's mild version of Mr Erdogan's exercise in 'democracy'.


----------



## mather (Apr 20, 2017)

Chz said:


> Stupid would be to rule such a thing out before the election's even happened. You need to see the results, you need to see what's on the table, etc, etc... It's just not a sane response for a party that will never be the overall winner to rule out such things. Possible exception for the SNP, because they actually don't give a damn what the rest of the country gets up to.



Well thanks for answering my question, you really do appear to be this stupid with that reply. Your original post stated:



Chz said:


> It's fucking rich to call people Tories for voting Lib Dem when the Labour party is backing the most destructive policy the Tories have ever fucking proposed, *ever*, without a word of fucking complaint.



It's not rich at all to call Lib Dem voters Tories given that the Lib Dems gave the Tories the keys to power in 2010 and have said they will do so again now. No other party, Labour included, have said they will prop up a Tory government so calling Lib Dem voters Tories is just stating the bloody obvious.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 20, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> Let's see how much those rights are rolled back by the tories after 2019  to "become competitive"


you aren't getting it. None of the rights came from the eu, none came from gift of the state. The albeit much eroded and attacked rights came from organised labour. I'm not going to pray to a supra-state or a local state for them to be protected, whats the point? Labours last gasp left leader* is about to lose hard and even then...

*if he wins I will be happy to look like a mug because of the circus value that would ensue


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 20, 2017)

treelover said:


> Why is the UK breaking up a good thing?



It is if you're Scottish.


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Random thought: this _feels_ very odd as a general election, given that it's almost entirely an unnecessary restatement of the brexit referendum. At this stage you'd be looking for all the shite and paraphernalia of the modern election, battle buses, manifestos etc. But all that seems irrelevant as does, well, the whole process.  We know the outcome both in terms of who runs the country and brexit. And even in terms of this being a sort of 2nd referendum by way of a general election it's distinctly odd.  On one side you have the tories and on the other the Libs and a few others seeking to benefit from pockets of remain-ery.  Labour has no real point of entry to the debate, no position around which to build a campaign. Unpredictable things may well happen and the EU negotiators could lob a few hand grenades into proceedings, but otherwise nothing will or can happen in terms of actual governance.  An election designed to kill labour off and secure May's advantage - the very thing the fixed parliament act was designed to stop.
> 
> Sorry - all very wordy and obvious - just feels ... odd. A general election in which neither the punters of the politicians will be thinking about it as such a thing.



Indeed I don't remember an "odder" one. 

Or a more obviously predictable one.

These things give me hope that something entirely unexpected my ghost happen.

Not Corbyn winning a bvioysly.

But the scene is set for some great big fuck off "fuck off" from the electorate.


----------



## inva (Apr 20, 2017)

chilango said:


> Indeed I don't remember an "odder" one.
> 
> Or a more obviously predictable one.
> 
> ...


ghosts more likely than a Corbyn win


----------



## Kesher (Apr 20, 2017)

gosub said:


> Jeremy Corbyn rules out offering second Brexit referendum
> 
> 
> wibble wobble wibble wobble jelly on a plate.
> ...



Wrong move


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2017)

Kesher said:


> Wrong move




Do you want this deal or much worse one? is a really stupid referendum to have.


----------



## Kesher (Apr 20, 2017)

gosub said:


> Do you want this deal or much worse one? is a really stupid referendum to have.



Better to have a referendum question along the lines of:  Do you want  this deal; or stay in the EU?


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2017)

Kesher said:


> Better to have a referendum question along the lines of:  Do you want  this deal; or stay in the EU?



Which gives the EU (fuck all^1/2) incentive to come to a workable deal.  


Seven weeks of this shit.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Kesher said:


> Better to have a referendum question along the lines of:  Do you want  this deal; or stay in the EU?


It would have been logical to programme that into the process at the very start but, presumably, Cameron never even imagined they would lose the referendum. Only way it's going to happen now is if some grand coalition of non-Tory parties come to power - which they won't - and even then Labour don't seem clear whether they want a 2nd ref.  The general election is a waste of millions of pounds, ostensibly about a deal with the EU which itself will probably cost billions.  Well done politicians, well done!


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 20, 2017)

Kesher said:


> Better to have a referendum question along the lines of:  Do you want  this deal; or stay in the EU?


An equally pointless question, as it would take all 27 other EU countries to agree to waive the Article 50 notice for that even to be an option.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 20, 2017)

chilango said:


> Indeed I don't remember an "odder" one.
> 
> Or a more obviously predictable one.
> 
> ...


Problem is the most likely fuck off would be a low turnout. And they don't give a toss about that.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

gosub said:


> Which gives the EU (fuck all^1/2) incentive to come to a workable deal.
> 
> 
> Seven weeks of this shit.


It's hard to imagine how they will fill that 7 weeks up:

 'Err, y'know, that election thing in 2015 that gave us a majority to govern for 5 years - and that referendum thing last year that said we are leaving the EU - and that article 50 thing that actually started the process, we, err, err, need *another thing*.  Why? WHY?  Why, because if we don't Corbyn and 5 auld fellers in the Lords are going to overturn EVERYTHING!  THATS FUCKING WHY!'


----------



## bimble (Apr 20, 2017)

It's just so grubby and cynical and shit isn't it. A great grubby cynical sea of shit, far as the eye can see.


----------



## gosub (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> It's hard to imagine how they will fill that 7 weeks up:
> 
> 'Err, y'know, that election thing in 2015 that gave us a majority to govern for 5 years - and that referendum thing last year that said we are leaving the EU - and that article 50 thing that actually started the process, we, err, err, need *another thing*.  Why? WHY?  Why, because if we don't Corbyn and 5 auld fellers in the Lords are going to overturn EVERYTHING!  THATS FUCKING WHY!'



Many a bacon sandwich between now and June


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

The REAL reasons Theresa May has called a snap general election

Thoughts? Seems a little far fetched, and it won't make a difference. Skinner asked if those accused would be allowed to stand. I guess they will and that's that


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Here we have it, the monster Corbyn's effective harrying of the government, game playing supervilliain tactics, deployment of every trick in the book to thwart the will of the people, even to the point of forcing Diane Abbot to get a headache, will cost the county £113,000,000.
How much does a general election cost?
  Yet again, the Labour Party can't be trusted with YOUR HARD EARNED MONEY!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

The only way to defeat The Monster Corbyn is to get 45 million people to wander round to a draughty church hall in early June (or fill in other people's postal votes). It's when the little people stand together that we have a chance of fighting back.


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2017)

emanymton said:


> Problem is the most likely fuck off would be a low turnout. And they don't give a toss about that.



I know.

I'm scrabbling for reasons to enjoy this election


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

chilango said:


> I know.
> 
> I'm scrabbling for reasons to enjoy this election


let's make insulting anagrams out of candidates' names.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> The only way to defeat The Monster Corbyn is to get 45 million people to wander round to a draughty church hall in early June (or fill in other people's postal votes). It's when the little people stand together that we have a chance of fighting back.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

chilango said:


> I know.
> 
> I'm scrabbling for reasons to enjoy this election


At least for the fetishists it's a ding dong battle between kitten heels and sandals with socks.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> let's make insulting anagrams out of candidates' names.



There's a yam.

Fuck's sake, she's not even good for that. This is the party that gave us 'I'm an evil tory bigot'


----------



## J Ed (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> At least for the fetishists it's a ding dong battle between kitten heels and sandals with socks.



Another demographic May will win overwhelmingly


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> let's make insulting anagrams out of candidates' names.



Ee am Trashy.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Another demographic May will win overwhelmingly


'You may be 21 points behind Jeremy, but there's some good news. You've established a foothold amongst National Trust members and people who go on retreats'.


----------



## hot air baboon (Apr 20, 2017)

shame he's not Tom Farron - that'd be moron fart


----------



## chilango (Apr 20, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> shame he's not Tom Farron - that'd be moron fart



Minor fart is pretty accurate though.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> shame he's not Tom Farron - that'd be moron fart


Blows feminist credentials:

Pity she's not Teresa May - that'd be Meaty Arse.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Yeah, I didn't really phrase that very well. The chance to fuck labour over to a massive degree has been there for a year or more, but she hasn't taken it. I was just musing on what was the final bit in the jigsaw with regard to this decision - whether it really was anything to do with strengthening her hand in the negotiations.  If she does think that, she's probably wrong.  As others have said, there's no reason at all that an increased tory majority would lead to Brussels saying 'oh, right, we'll let you off the £50 billion'.
> 
> Edit: a*nd holding an election also gives EU bods a chance to detonate the odd hand grenade into the campaign*.  It's win win for her in the sense that everything is win win domestically, but might not be vis a vis Brussels.


Hand grenade number 1:
EU will welcome Britain back if election voters veto Brexit
Not a very effective hand grenade admittedly, probably lands with a splutt like, wet fart noise in the no mans land between thrower and target.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Hand grenade number 1:
> EU will welcome Britain back if election voters veto Brexit
> Not a very effective hand grenade admittedly, probably lands with a splutt like, wet fart noise in the no mans land between thrower and target.


... in fact the logic of that seems to be 'if you want to vote against the thing the majority of you voted for last year, you should vote for candidates you don't really want in this election'. Finally, Corbyn has a path to power!


----------



## agricola (Apr 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> ... in fact the logic of that seems to be 'if you want to vote against the thing the majority of you voted for last year, you should vote for candidates you don't really want in this election'. Finally, Corbyn has a path to power!



TBH that is one of the most significant interventions in the election so far.  He is saying that there is nothing in article 50 that says it cannot be withdrawn, something which is demonstrably true (edit) and which the Government have tried to insist isn't the case.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Just watched a clip of Victoria Derbyshire interviewing a visibly angry and confused Ken Loach who was stuck trying to persuade a man in a disability motor scooter that voting LibDem would mean more misery for people like him (assuming I'm correct about the scooter).

He was one member of a panel of 'ordinary folk' who though ostensibly leftward leaning seemed resolute in the notion that a vote for Corbyn would strengthen the Tories. One poor guy tried pointing out the fact of obvious division among the left being counter productive. No one listened.

We live in bizarre times


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Just watched a clip of Victoria Derbyshire interviewing a visibly angry and confused Ken Loach who was stuck trying to persuade a man in a disability motor scooter that voting LibDem would mean more misery for people like him (assuming I'm correct about the scooter).


so kl's chatting to someone in a mobility scooter while vd (unfortunate initials) starts trying to interview him? why not let him get on with his initial conversation instead of muddying the waters.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> so kl's chatting to someone in a mobility scooter while vd (unfortunate initials) starts trying to interview him? why not let him get on with his initial conversation instead of muddying the waters.


No, he was interviewed by VD and said he's 100% behind JC, the scooter guy was in the panel I mentioned and commented in response to Ken.

This, in other words


----------



## Kesher (Apr 20, 2017)

gosub said:


> Which gives the EU (fuck all^1/2) incentive to come to a workable deal.
> 
> 
> Seven weeks of this shit.



And the EU has  an incentive as things currently stand?


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

This is why we have no choice but to vote Corbyn. This is horrible


----------



## teqniq (Apr 20, 2017)




----------



## Wilf (Apr 20, 2017)

agricola said:


> TBH that is one of the most significant interventions in the election so far.  He is saying that there is nothing in article 50 that says it cannot be withdrawn, something which is demonstrably true (edit) and which the Government have tried to insist isn't the case.


Whole thing is getting bizarre now. We had a plebiscite which was supposedly binding (I think, but was anyway adopted as article 50 - the really, really really irrevocable step). We then have a general election - and general elections, by their nature are about just approving an incoming government, not specific policies and anyway the official opposition now seems to agree with the government over carrying on with brexit. But the government says it's to give them the authority to overcome non-existent parliamentary opposition to brexit continuing.... and now we have a top eurocrat saying it's really another plebiscite. FFS!


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 20, 2017)

teqniq said:


>


I know. Sorry to post something so depressing, but this is where we are


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> This is why we have no choice but to vote Corbyn. This is horrible




Can any fool, sorry, I mean 'opinion poll respondant', who (a January story about some poll claimed) trusted May more than Corbyn on the NHS, be 'requested'  to think again via a second chance to answer that question? 

(eg by being asked a name-free question : whether they trusted the Tories or Labour more re  the NHS?  )


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Can any fool, sorry, I mean 'opinion poll respondant', who (a January story about some poll claimed) trusted May more than Corbyn on the NHS, be 'requested'  to think again via a second chance to answer that question?
> 
> (eg by being asked a name-free question : whether they trusted the Tories or Labour more re  the NHS?  )


Fuck the polls though. Whatever the polls say, this should be Labour's unremitting message. The victims of tory cuts comprise a majority in this country. Attack the cuts, cuts, cuts, and present an alternative. 

Fuck brexit. Don't even mention it, except that it's happening and it will be a fuck-load better happening under labour than the tories. 

I await the enthusiasm to narrow down on this and for this to be the way to go down fighting, if this is what is to happen.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus : That post by me was really just a dig at how unreliably so many polls** are worded more than anything else (as I'm sure you discerned).

**Just like the GE, then,, loosely speaking


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck brexit. Don't even mention it, except that it's happening and it will be a fuck-load better happening under labour than the tories.



And that I *completely* agree with. How _practical_ a strategy for Labour that would be is another question though


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> littlebabyjesus : That post by me was really just a dig at how unreliably so many polls** are worded more than anything else (as I'm sure you discerned).
> 
> **Just like the GE, then,, loosely speaking


I know I'm going to sound delusional, but Melenchon was around 10 % in the polls only a few weeks ago. He's doubled that since, albeit only to 20 %. Labour won't get anywhere being timid, but they can get somewhere, I believe, by not being timid - there are just too many victims of the tories for there not to be an opportunity to do something.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 20, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I'm sure you weren't a  comedy gunman before. Is it since you got your degree?



Fancy paying off my loan lol?


----------



## Celyn (Apr 20, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I don't see her losing this at all.
> 
> It's a golden opportunity for the Blairites to ditch Corbyn, they must be in clover!
> 
> And yet people who "normally vote Labour" keep telling me that they'd rather May than vote for Corbyn. They'd rather the austerity privatisatoin and genocide of the poorest and most vulnerable continue unabated, than perhaps give a well meaning mild socialist old man the time of day. As if Corbyn is secretly Satan's left bollock or something.


No way will she lose. It is all really bloody scary.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I know I'm going to sound delusional, but Melenchon was around 10 % in the polls only a few weeks ago. He's doubled that since, albeit only to 20 %. Labour won't get anywhere being timid, but they can get somewhere, I believe, by not being timid - there are just *too many victims of the tories* for there not to be an opportunity to do something.





> *People with disabilities*
> 
> There are over 6.9 million disabled people of working age which represents 19% of the working population.
> There are over 10 million disabled people in Britain, of whom 5 million are over state pension age.
> There are two million people with sight problems in the UK.


More: Key facts | Disabled Living Foundation


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> And that I *completely* agree with. How _practical_ a strategy for Labour that would be is another question though


It's completely practical. See all that stuff about the EU that's good - we commit to keeping that, including the human rights stuff - no reason not to sign up to that, while also going further: hey, EU, catch up there! The EU minimums are not a limit on what you can do. Raise fucking corporation tax. Tax profits. Give an option to become worker-owned if businesses squeal. Commit to that, now. The fuckers who pay it won't be voting for you anyway so fuck em. 

There are tons of practical strategies. Tons.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 20, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> More: Key facts | Disabled Living Foundation


My mum and dad are not labour voters generally. But they are old and they are now suffering because of the state of the NHS. Everyone over the age of 80 is affected by this. I know their reaction: it will be to possibly vote libdem.  But they also illustrate the complexity of this stuff. It really is not about brexit - both my parents voted for brexit, but it is hard to think of an issue that is less relevant to their lives.


----------



## coley (Apr 20, 2017)

agricola said:


> Not sure how true that is - if the plan was always to start negotiations after the French and German elections, why on earth would you trigger Article 50 two months beforehand?


No, perhaps I put badly, May had to trigger A50, due to domestic  pressures,  but nobody on either side of the debate expected serious discussions to begin before the German and French  elections had been decided.
By deciding to hold an UK election in the same time scale,  she is supposing (hoping) the major players will have a firm base on which to take the negotiations forward. 
And perhaps undermine the SNPs position?


----------



## agricola (Apr 20, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's completely practical. See all that stuff about the EU that's good - we commit to keeping that, including the human rights stuff - no reason not to sign up to that, while also going further: hey, EU, catch up there! The EU minimums are not a limit on what you can do. Raise fucking corporation tax. Tax profits. Give an option to become worker-owned if businesses squeal. Commit to that, now. The fuckers who pay it won't be voting for you anyway so fuck em.
> 
> There are tons of practical strategies. Tons.



The worker-owned thing especially; Gideon and his chums have already prepared the ground for most of it.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Enomeni me Hellas!



Yer what? Didn't like some of the sites I found while looking for a translation


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 21, 2017)

coley said:


> No, perhaps I put badly, May had to trigger A50, due to domestic  pressures,  but nobody on either side of the debate expected serious discussions to begin before the German and French  elections had been decided.
> By deciding to hold an UK election in the same time scale,  she is supposing (hoping) the major players will have a firm base on which to take the negotiations forward.
> And perhaps undermine the SNPs position?


That's the official version. Unofficial versions range from "It's a fine time to stuff Jeremy"", and "Oops, they're going to charge enough people with electoral malfeasance to affect our majority" to "Look into my eyessssss..."
It's total bollocks isn't it. Yeah, right, "worker owned stuff", the "Johnny Loulou de Nos Jours". Won't be holding my breath.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 21, 2017)

agricola said:


> The worker-owned thing especially; Gideon and his chums have already prepared the ground for most of it.


Fuck me, it even has a solid pro-business slant to it. Labour could wrong-foot the libdems on that by forcing them to agree with it on principle, given that it was briefly their thing: the 'John Lewis' model. But there are other models - Mondragon, eg - that you could get the lds feeling forced to acknowledge.


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> And yet people who "normally vote Labour" keep telling me that they'd rather May than vote for Corbyn. They'd rather the austerity privatisatoin and genocide of the poorest and most vulnerable continue unabated, than perhaps give a well meaning mild socialist old man the time of day. As if Corbyn is secretly Satan's left bollock or something.



Eugh, tell me about it. I get the feeling that half the time they're only saying it because they feel they have to.


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 21, 2017)

Greasy Boiler said:


> Eugh, tell me about it. I get the feeling that half the time they're only saying it because they feel they have to.


Why do you think they feel they have to? (It isn't a challenging question, more trying to find out whether your experience tallies with mine.)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 21, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Why do you think they feel they have to? (It isn't a challenging question, more trying to find out whether your experience tallies with mine.)


Elections always make me a bit depressed. This is one of the reasons - so many people voting only according to how they hope they will personally do out of the result. And their notion of what is beneficial to them being circumscribed by very narrow parameters.  

If/when the tories win, I will be sad all over again for this reason.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> That's the official version. Unofficial versions range from "It's a fine time to stuff Jeremy"", and "Oops, they're going to charge enough people with electoral malfeasance to affect our majority" to "Look into my eyessssss..."
> It's total bollocks isn't it. Yeah, right, "worker owned stuff", the "Johnny Loulou de Nos Jours". Won't be holding my breath.



Sadly they could stuff poor Jeremy at any time, the 'electoral malfeasance'?, I suspect if the coppers cast their nets far enough they'll net most of the bastards on the public payroll!
Just for starters, here on me own doorstep.
Wansbeck MP Ian Lavery investigated over undeclared £60k union redundancy
The bastards are all at it, in fact it would be an interesting, but extremely short lived thread, extolling politicians, who actually could prove their careers were more about milking the public purse than their achievements in respect of the 'public good'


----------



## Greasy Boiler (Apr 21, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Why do you think they feel they have to? (It isn't a challenging question, more trying to find out whether your experience tallies with mine.)



Well him and his supporters have all been painted a raving fanactics and people don't want to be perceived as such.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 21, 2017)

coley said:


> Sadly they could stuff poor Jeremy at any time, the 'electoral malfeasance'?, I suspect if the coppers cast their nets far enough they'll net most of the bastards on the public payroll!
> Just for starters, here on me own doorstep.


hit back! Corbyn had a tiny expense compared to nearly everyone else. He is faultless on this issue and can swing with it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 21, 2017)

Greasy Boiler said:


> Well him and his supporters have all been painted a raving fanactics and people don't want to be perceived as such.


By whom? The BBC? 

Yes, by the BBC. And others, and this is the biggest hurdle they will face.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

chilango said:


> Minor fart is pretty accurate though.



Reminiscent but largely unpleasant smell after the GE, rather like a fart In a  lift.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Another demographic May will win overwhelmingly



Sandals n socks!?? First to the wall, mmm, after landlords


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Random thought: this _feels_ very odd as a general election, given that it's almost entirely an unnecessary restatement of the brexit referendum. At this stage you'd be looking for all the shite and paraphernalia of the modern election, battle buses, manifestos etc. But all that seems irrelevant as does, well, the whole process.  We know the outcome both in terms of who runs the country and brexit. And even in terms of this being a sort of 2nd referendum by way of a general election it's distinctly odd.  On one side you have the tories and on the other the Libs and a few others seeking to benefit from pockets of remain-ery.  Labour has no real point of entry to the debate, no position around which to build a campaign. Unpredictable things may well happen and the EU negotiators could lob a few hand grenades into proceedings, but otherwise nothing will or can happen in terms of actual governance.  An election designed to kill labour off and secure May's advantage - the very thing the fixed parliament act was designed to stop.
> 
> Sorry - all very wordy and obvious - just feels ... odd. A general election in which neither the punters of the politicians will be thinking about it as such a thing.




No mention of a progressive manifesto then?, which will mean such things as the brutal welfare system will get some exposure, a Shadow Minister has explicitly said this will let light be shone on onto very unsavoury things, the social care crisis, etc.

I love your posts, but sometimes there is a bit of overthinking.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 21, 2017)

coley said:


> Sandals n socks!?? First to the wall, mmm, after landlords


Isn't that exactly what May hopes for. A snap election and so we will fixate on triviality. We won't have time for anything else. 

 Corbyn has got this wrong, tbh. He should have voted against, like Skinner. At the very least, give us three-months' notice.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> No mention of a progressive manifesto then?, which will mean such things as the brutal welfare system will get some exposure, a Shadow Minister has explicitly said this will let light be shone on onto very unsavoury things, the social care crisis, etc.
> 
> I love your posts, but sometimes there is a bit of overthinking.


Well, there will be a manifesto - and it will be progressive, or social democratic or perhaps just a bit more humane (though I seem to recall McDonnell saying things like Labour won't raise taxes, so there are limits on how 'progressive' things could be. Anyway, we'll have to see). But that's my point about the oddness of the whole thing - none of that will be centre stage over the next 7 weeks.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 21, 2017)

coley said:


> Yer what? Didn't like some of the sites I found while looking for a translation



It's a rough literal translation from a really old tourist dictionary. 
The thing I have noticed over the last thirty years is how many Greeks mistake me for somebody out of Moloko. Gets shouted a lot when I am out and about!


----------



## Old Spark (Apr 21, 2017)

If the polls are halfway accurate then Labour will go backwards and Corbyn will resign at Conference in a last ditch attempt to change the rules and pass the torch to McDonnell or a younger Corbynista.

If seats are to be lost then if Carlsberg ran elections then the losers would be-

1.the morons who lent Corbyn their nomination in 2015-so Beckett,Crudass,Khan(Tooting),Lammy,Thomas,Coyne,Field etc etc.

2.the Labour leavers-Stuart has jumped,but Hoey ,Skinner,Stringer etc

At least some of these will depart so the dish which should be eaten cold will be enjoyed on June 9th.My personal favourites -tory frank field and ultra libertarian kate hoey ,neither that likely sadly.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> It is if you're Scottish.


Scotland seceding is almost certainly going to be a good deal more unpleasant for Scots than the English. Bouncing out of a far closer union to the UK as well as a very loose connection to the EU. Though it probably will be a brief relief to escape a Tory dominated Westminster.

Funny really attempted Scexit leads to nationalist enthusiasm, the collapse of Labour and Scotland being effectively a one party statelet and now all the flag waving around Brexit likely does the same for the UK.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> If the polls are halfway accurate then Labour will go backwards and Corbyn will resign at Conference in a last ditch attempt to change the rules and pass the torch to McDonnell or a younger Corbynista.
> 
> If seats are to be lost then if Carlsberg ran elections then the losers would be-
> 
> ...


Isn't Labour more likely to split with some Gang Of Forty taking off to create an SDP tribute act so we can relive the utter misery of the Tory dominated 80s again properly?


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 21, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's completely practical. See all that stuff about the EU that's good - we commit to keeping that, including the human rights stuff - no reason not to sign up to that, while also going further: hey, EU, catch up there! The EU minimums are not a limit on what you can do. Raise fucking corporation tax. Tax profits. Give an option to become worker-owned if businesses squeal. Commit to that, now. The fuckers who pay it won't be voting for you anyway so fuck em.
> 
> There are tons of practical strategies. Tons.



I agree, but how much freedom the dominant media climate will allow Labour to pursue any of them is the real obstacle, isn't it? Pushing moderately leftish policies is all very well, but all the big clamour will drown it out.

Not much time to develop this point ...


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 21, 2017)

I not-very-confidently clinging to a bit of hope, though,  that the Tories' likely landslide won't be nearly as big as some polls suggest  just now?


----------



## Old Spark (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Isn't Labour more likely to split with some Gang Of Forty taking off to create an SDP tribute act so we can relive the utter misery of the Tory dominated 80s again properly?



Only if Corbyn refuses to go.

If McCluskey has won his first job will be to get Corbyn to own the election defeat.He will try to broker a deal-jezza to stand down at conference in exchange for a cast iron guarantee the rule change on reducing nominations to stand will be debated and wont be blocked by conference arrangements.

Clear that the Watsonians will back Cooper and try to restrict nominations just to her and if not to exclude any Momentum type.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> I agree, but how much freedom the dominant media climate will allow Labour to pursue any of them is the real obstacle, isn't it? Pushing moderately leftish policies is all very well, but all the big clamour will drown it out.
> 
> Not much time to develop this point ...


The UK was already been headed in a rather authoritarian direction under New Labour. Some of the Human Rights stuff is what a lot of Tories were objecting to. The EU's eco agenda isn't popular with Tories either. It's a matter of nation state sovereignty for them. International norms are after all a constraint. The eurosceptic wing have for instance been objecting to traditional British respect for International Law during the A50 process. It's finally about being subjected to foreign courts. It's a trend of thought that potentially has wide implications in international relations.

If May gets a decent majority she can cherry pick over decades of EU legislation in a year or so and fix it to her party's current liking. She may have more respect for the law and the process that constructs it than that but I'd not bet on it. 30% of EU law stems from two countries the UK and Germany but of course it reflect political preferences over time. This is extremely undemocratic as there's meant to be a deliberative process and proper scrutiny during law making but with A50 closing there simply isn't time. Trump has little chance of ever doing something similar in the US as he's constrained by the Constitution which can only be unpicked slowly under scrutiny of the arms of government. The British voter can't claim to not have been consulted as handing this legislative opportunity to the party in power is implicit the Leave vote and now May will ratify that with a proper GE. The comparison with Erdogan's far greater new powers in Turkey to make or break laws does come to mind. 

Then there's what comes afterwards. The Tories are in a very authoritarian mood at the moment. That won't be pretty. The very concept of broad Human Rights versus the rights of citizens is reflected in things like the, unfortunately popular, hostile attitude to refugees. There's rather strong support among the Tory base for a restoration of the Death Penalty. As in Turkey EU membership was a barrier to that and there's a strong correlation between voting Leave and wanting the rope back.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Can any fool, sorry, I mean 'opinion poll respondant', who (a January story about some poll claimed) trusted May more than Corbyn on the NHS, be 'requested'  to think again via a second chance to answer that question?
> 
> (eg by being asked a name-free question : whether they trusted the Tories or Labour more re  the NHS?  )


Sure, whether they will think again is another matter.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Scotland seceding is almost certainly going to be a good deal more unpleasant for Scots than the English. Bouncing out of a far closer union to the UK as well as *a very loose connection to the EU*.



Nope. That is misinformation. Scotland will re-enter the E.U. 


Many posters here have asserted that the majority of England's population has a right-wing leaning tendency in its collective culture. Scotland's clearly does not, judging from the voting record of the last half a century or more. Therefore, it would be a very anti-democratic person indeed that wished to deny a sovereign nation whose population and government together wanted to determine their own position insode or outside of the E.U.  Moreover, that "too small to be a nation" scare  tactic relies on an ignorance of the fact that   a dozen other countries with a similar or smaller population within the E.U.

Whether you accept that the last referendum for Independence is now irrelevant post-Brexit or whether you take into account the recent Ipsos-Mori polls that indicate that 
fractionally over 50% of Scots would vote for Independence today, or whether you accept that the SNP have a mandate from those that voted them in power in the Scottish Paraliament or not, this election in June will put all that to bed.

If the SNP win in Scotland they will win on an Indy2 platform as much as May will win on a Brexit one.

The Indyref 2 comes with Brexit.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Greasy Boiler said:


> Eugh, tell me about it. I get the feeling that half the time they're only saying it because they feel they have to.


Some people have said that it's Corbyn's fault that the NHS is in the shitter simply because he isn't opposition enough for them!

Whatever his faults, he can't do anything to stop the tories in opposition. Yet the reason not to vote for him to save the NHS is because he hasn't...saved the NHS from the opposition benches already.

Britain is ker-fuckered


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Celyn said:


> No way will she lose. It is all really bloody scary.


I think Labour voters need to get real, I assume the worst because it's the only practical way to function today. I'm going to vote Labour, because it's not a hardship for me to tick a box in a room near my home, but it's a fairly Tory safe seat. My vote will achieve nothing more than to make me feel like I've tried my best. The system is a shitshow, that's all there is to it, but I'd still urge people to vote Labour - or anything that gets. the. bastards. OUT!


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Clear that the Watsonians will back Cooper and try to restrict nominations just to her and if not to exclude any Momentum type.



I suspect that most "moderate" PLP folks don't give a fuck about what the Tories will do next term, provided that they rule the opposition party.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Many posters here have asserted that the majority of England's population has a right-wing leaning tendency in its collective culture.


name names, quote posts


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> There's rather strong support among the Tory base for a restoration of the Death Penalty. As in Turkey EU membership was a barrier to that and there's a strong correlation between voting Leave and wanting the rope back.


i think you'll find that the death penalty is incompatible with membership of the council of europe, to which both the uk and turkey belong.

no one has proposed we leave the council of europe.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

In the news today
Erdogan revives spectre of death penalty in Turkey


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Some people have said that it's Corbyn's fault that the NHS is in the shitter simply because he isn't opposition enough for them!
> 
> Whatever his faults, he can't do anything to stop the tories in opposition. Yet the reason not to vote for him to save the NHS is because he hasn't...saved the NHS from the opposition benches already.
> 
> Britain is ker-fuckered



tbf he hasn't articulated how he would "save the NHS". 

Brown used to rabbit on about 15,000 more nurses etc but those kind of sticking plaster solutions will inevitability be made meaningless a few years down the line. 

It needs to be put on a sound long term footing otherwise the Tory cry of "a strong NHS is only possible if we have a strong economy" will always make people think of Venezuela.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

The problem is that Jeremy didn't Jarvis or Cooper enough and was too busy Corbyning about. Plus, Gordon Brown won an election. [/Luke Akehurst]


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 21, 2017)

Also tbf, the Labour Party  whilst in opposition with anyone in charge, can bang on about the NHS predicament continuously and still they will achieve nothing without massive, identifiable and angry support from the population.
The Labour Party may well have installed the NHS, but we are all, everyone who has ever contributed to it, it's custodians.
Whilst in opposition to Thatcher and her mean machine, Labour never mounted any great campaign against the poll tax, it was only the swell of outrage that changed the course of that. I truly believe it will take a similar population driven outcry to save the NHS. It is far too important to be left to the whim of any political party. people need waking up, no pun intended.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Nope. That is misinformation. Scotland will re-enter the E.U.
> ...


So the Scots are going to leave the EU, Leave the UK, then rejoin the EU? You could be talking twenty years of disruption and capital flight while the oil runs out.

It would mean like Latvia probably austerity policies and then accession in five years or so to the Euro and Schengen. That's the package for recent accession states. The sweet deal the UK had was blown up by triggering A50 never to return. Only Scotland will likely be tits up with the inevitable chaos of secession and whatever hiccups Brexit causes. The Scots aren't the Brussels loving Irish they poll as only marginally less anti-EU than the English. The SNP were even tactically clinging to Sterling in the last referendum despite that making a fiscal nonsense of secession and the BoE saying nope to that. I doubt Scots will ever wear actually joining the Euro. It's far more unpopular in the UK than the EZ. The other alternative is the shit sandwich of a deal the Norwegians have with the EU.

I can see the frustrated Scots leaving a UK tilted way over to the right by a locked in Tory majority. That is if the English don't decide to finally shed the burden of Scotland first because that is brewing. Don't expect that amputation be a pleasant experience either however.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you'll find that the death penalty is incompatible with membership of the council of europe, to which both the uk and turkey belong.
> 
> no one has proposed we leave the council of europe.


Not yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Not yet.


yeh that's why i didn't say no one will propose such, such a suggestion is likely on the cards


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> So the Scots are going to leave the EU, Leave the UK, then rejoin the EU? You could be talking twenty years of disruption and capital flight while the oil runs out.



Twenty years? Don't be ridiculous. And as for capital flight, the reverse is more likely as firms relocate from England to Scotland as a means of access to the EU.



CrabbedOne said:


> That is if the English don't decide to finally shed the burden of Scotland first because that is brewing. Don't expect that amputation be a pleasant experience either however.



"Amputation" is one level of fear up from Camerons "divorce". Scare, scare, scare.

To Hell with the Tory English. May they vote May and leave the Scots to their own devices.

Judging from the press, the English hate them anyway.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Not yet.


they'll bring back the bloody codes and debtors jail, a new darkness will sweep the earth and the four horsemen will ride out. Ya.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh that's why i didn't say no one will propose such, such a suggestion is likely on the cards


Yes, it's logically consistent with the drift to uber-sovereignty and against subservience to foreign courts in rightwing discourse. May is wanting out of ECHR. This does not mean Tories have no attachment to HR they just don't want any bloody foreigner defining what they are.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 21, 2017)

Oh FFS  The UK won't be bringing back the death penalty. We won't descend into barbarism just because we leave the EU.

You bunch of shit, defeatist, want everything handed to you top down, liberals - no wonder the left can't mount any opposition to the Tories any more. Rights and conditions will be fought, won, changed, and lost as they've always been. And mostly not by politicians but by the organising and force of the people.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Also tbf, the Labour Party  whilst in opposition with anyone in charge, can bang on about the NHS predicament continuously and still they will achieve nothing without massive, identifiable and angry support from the population.
> The Labour Party may well have installed the NHS, but we are all, everyone who has ever contributed to it, it's custodians.
> Whilst in opposition to Thatcher and her mean machine, Labour never mounted any great campaign against the poll tax, it was only the swell of outrage that changed the course of that. I truly believe it will take a similar population driven outcry to save the NHS. It is far too important to be left to the whim of any political party. people need waking up, no pun intended.


That may be true, unfortunately the Tories have proved more than capable of deploying any of Parliaments arcane rules to get their way, regardless of how many people campaign against their shutdown of the NHS. There seems little stomach for the kind of militant action required.


----------



## Tropi (Apr 21, 2017)

Remember
Donald Trump and Theresa May hold hands - BBC News


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they'll bring back the bloody codes and debtors jail, a new darkness will sweep the earth and the four horsemen will ride out. Ya.


We already have debtors jails; a woman was put in prison for five months by a judge who publicly lamented the lack of legal aid she had recourse to.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> That may be true, unfortunately the Tories have proved more than capable of deploying any of Parliaments arcane rules to get their way, regardless of how many people campaign against their shutdown of the NHS. There seems little stomach for the kind of militant action required.



Sadly and as you say unfortunately.
This is a massive problem.
I fear for the younger generations as they become targets for the Tories spiteful, vindictive yet seemingly acceptable behaviour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> We already have debtors jails; a woman was put in prison for five months by a judge who publicly lamented the lack of legal aid she had recourse to.


yeh yeh, you seem to be forgetting the jailing of people for non-payment of poll tax and council tax. debtors' gaols never went away.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

I sort of get were Leavers were coming from on the Death Penalty. We used to criticise the Israelis for it but we do quite a bit of extra-judicial execution of UK citizens in the GWOT that few people turn a hair at so it's not like it's a great leap into barbarism. Repeal was the quintessential establishment step and incredibly unpopular. It only scraped up to majority approval in 2014 after 50 years. It's still not a winner with rightwing voters whose MPs may dominate the next parliament in a way they have not since the 30s. With particularly rope loving Kippers seemingly bolting towards their nearest Tory MP in this GE what once was a marginal idea can go mainstream. The mood is to respect "the will of the people" not for MPs to provide a moral lead I fear. After all leaving the EU was not so long ago rather fanciful hobbyhorse of golf club bores. 

But for fuck's sake what sort of deranged Hobbit person wants to go back to Imperial Measures and Old Money???


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 21, 2017)

That survey is a piece of shit


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> But for fuck's sake what sort of deranged Hobbit person wants to go back to Imperial Measures and Old Money???



If UKIP can make that their platform, they may end up splitting the Tory vote again after all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> But for fuck's sake what sort of deranged Hobbit person wants to go back to Imperial Measures and Old Money???


now you mention it, why not? people are still, i understand, taught the twelve times table at school: never realised that's why it was taught, did you, to work out the auld money. feet, inches, miles, furlongs, pounds, ounces, all in common use: wouldn't be surprised if some drugs were still sold in multiples of ounces. tell you what, why don't you mull it over while having a pint.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> That survey is a piece of shit


indy commissioned clickbaity leading questions for a liberal audience to clutch pearls at and reassure themselves that yes, everyone else really is a thick lumpen threat to society


----------



## bimble (Apr 21, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Oh FFS  The UK won't be bringing back the death penalty. We won't descend into barbarism just because we leave the EU.
> 
> You bunch of shit, defeatist, want everything handed to you top down, liberals - no wonder the left can't mount any opposition to the Tories any more. Rights and conditions will be fought, won, changed, and lost as they've always been. And mostly not by politicians but by the organising and force of the people.



I really want to be less shit and defeatist and I get that what you're saying is true. Even in my local area a couple of years ago a concerted effort by a bunch of angry and energised people getting together did successfully force the council to reverse a crazy policy decision so I know first hand that it can happen. The defeatism and passivity is really hard to shift though. Right now the same council is pushing through something totally despicable and it doesn't look like we've got any hope of stopping them, because people are tired and busy just trying to keep heads above water .


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Also tbf, the Labour Party  whilst in opposition with anyone in charge, can bang on about the NHS predicament continuously and still they will achieve nothing without massive, identifiable and angry support from the population.
> The Labour Party may well have installed the NHS, but we are all, everyone who has ever contributed to it, it's custodians.
> Whilst in opposition to Thatcher and her mean machine, Labour never mounted any great campaign against the poll tax, it was only the swell of outrage that changed the course of that. I truly believe it will take a similar population driven outcry to save the NHS. It is far too important to be left to the whim of any political party. people need waking up, no pun intended.




There are large pro NHS marches, events, every week across the UK, stopping hospital closures, etc, the national NHS March was huge, the media just doesn't cover them in depth, and the public sadly hasn't been listening to what the Labour Party has to say.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 21, 2017)

What has the Labour Party had to say?


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> now you mention it, why not? people are still, i understand, taught the twelve times table at school: never realised that's why it was taught, did you, to work out the auld money. feet, inches, miles, furlongs, pounds, ounces, all in common use: wouldn't be surprised if some drugs were still sold in multiples of ounces. tell you what, why don't you mull it over while having a pint.


You forgot the somehow timely fluid scruple. Ah the lost Imperial world of my youth. It was utterly shite.


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

> *Theresa May suggests UK health services could be part of US trade deal*
> 
> 
> PM insists Government remains 'committed to an NHS that is free at the point of use'
> ...



Worrying, but caution as its in the Indy.


----------



## inva (Apr 21, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> What has the Labour Party had to say?


and why should anyone want to listen to it?


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

Big Up The NHS Network

positive group


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> Worrying, but caution as its in the Indy.


and from january. we all raised an eyebrow at the disconnect between headline and content then too.


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 21, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Also tbf, the Labour Party  whilst in opposition with anyone in charge, can bang on about the NHS predicament continuously and still they will achieve nothing without massive, identifiable and angry support from the population.
> The Labour Party may well have installed the NHS, but we are all, everyone who has ever contributed to it, it's custodians.
> Whilst in opposition to Thatcher and her mean machine, Labour never mounted any great campaign against the poll tax, it was only the swell of outrage that changed the course of that. I truly believe it will take a similar population driven outcry to save the NHS. It is far too important to be left to the whim of any political party. people need waking up, no pun intended.



Something made all the more difficult by the existence of the Labour Party. They're like the SWP of parliamentary politics, hoovering up lefties and putting them to work doing useless things.


----------



## killer b (Apr 21, 2017)

May's comms director and press secretary have both resigned in the last few days... what's going on there?


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

Interesting, is the media making anything of it?, in any other time they would.


----------



## bimble (Apr 21, 2017)

Inspiring stuff on twitter today. The second one put there by Clive Lewis MP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> Interesting, is the media making anything of it?, in any other time they would.


google 'katie perrior' and find out for yourself.

she's not updated her linkedin profile yet


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 21, 2017)

Full version of that poll has party preference as well, was surprised to see 15% of Lib Dems are all for hanging and flogging.

https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...q3i9/InternalResults_170222_AfterBrexit_W.pdf


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Full version of that poll has party preference as well, was surprised to see 15% of Lib Dems are all for hanging and flogging.
> 
> https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...q3i9/InternalResults_170222_AfterBrexit_W.pdf


yeh but what they get up to behind closed doors is surely a purely private matter


----------



## treelover (Apr 21, 2017)

Boulton squirming.


----------



## JTG (Apr 21, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Full version of that poll has party preference as well, was surprised to see 15% of Lib Dems are all for hanging and flogging.
> 
> https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...q3i9/InternalResults_170222_AfterBrexit_W.pdf


Most Lib Dems haven't a clue what they're in favour of tbh. Just... stuff. Y'know?


----------



## ffsear (Apr 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Inspiring stuff on twitter today. The second one put there by Clive Lewis MP.
> 
> 
> View attachment 104915



Well thanks me fucked!


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## gosub (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> The problem is that Jeremy didn't Jarvis or Cooper enough and was too busy Corbyning about. Plus, Gordon Brown won an election. [/Luke Akehurst]



 which election did Gordon Brown win?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Full version of that poll has party preference as well, was surprised to see 15% of Lib Dems are all for hanging and flogging.
> 
> https://d25d2506sfb94s.cloudfront.n...q3i9/InternalResults_170222_AfterBrexit_W.pdf


whigs have always had a violently authoritarian tendency


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

gosub said:


> which election did Gordon Brown win?


None. Was taking the piss.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 21, 2017)

gosub said:


> which election did Gordon Brown win?



There is of course the argument that goes round and round that perhaps Brown should have called a GE in 2007.
 Cameron would have lost the leadership and the coalition, then the 2015 and cowardly call for a party protecting referendum would never have occurred. I believe shit happens sooner or later anyway, depending if change is required by those who really control events.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

There's lots of data out there on identity and Brexit or Tory affiliation. 

I'd say it was mainly about being swept up in narrowly defined patriotism for Leave Tories. A lot of choices were tactical initially but Tory Remainers just got steamrollered emotionally. Not really like the mad passion of Trump with it's naked targeting of out groups. They the Leavers had very well defined ideas on sovereignty, a great nostalgia for the days of Empire and a simple up themselves confidence that nothing could go wrong because they were so wonderful. Still clinging to internally inconsistent ideas on free trade and aspiring to a kind of fantasy autarky.

From the LSE It’s NOT the economy, stupid: Brexit as a story of personal values

The Tories lately I've run into are not stupid but they are increasingly authoritarian. The base far more than the MPs but that may change as the more liberal Remainers are being weeded out. The Death Penalty is one of those touch stone issues but it's just part of a larger trend to discipline and punish. And yes they are a threat to society as it now sits because the left lacks their ruthlessness and will to power. 

It is impressive how they have come together but like the SNP they are quite a machine when it comes to seizing power and finally little else matters in British politics. They may make an absolute bollox of Brexit but this is something they are good at.

In contrast Labour is basically the circular firing squad the Tories might have been if it had gone Remain. Perhaps Tory Leavers political instincts were essentially correct for they do look to be in strong position for this GE.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 104919


Wait, SIR lynton Crosby? What the hellcunt? When did this occur?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Wait, SIR lynton Crosby? What the hellcunt? When did this occur?


when did what occur?


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> when did what occur?


His knighthood, unless I've read that wrong


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Wait, SIR lynton Crosby? What the hellcunt? When did this occur?



2016 New Years Honours


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

Does the general erection mean we won't have to vote on the silly 'metro mayor' bollocks, or is that still going ahead?


----------



## kebabking (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Does the general erection mean we won't have to vote on the silly 'metro mayor' bollocks, or is that still going ahead?



still going ahead - everything is, save the Manchester Gorton by-election.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 21, 2017)

Setting a low, rigid figure for immigration is pointless if it leaves employers short of workers

In the Currant Bun no less. Getting tired of unbelievable Tory manifesto pledges.


----------



## gosub (Apr 21, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> Setting a low, rigid figure for immigration is pointless if it leaves employers short of workers
> 
> In the Currant Bun no less. Getting tired of unbelievable Tory manifesto pledges.



they are bit like buses,be another one along in a minute.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Not as important right now, no. Those issues will crop up in every election, but Brexit will only happen once. And once its done, its done. We can't go back and renegotiate because we got a shit deal (well we could, but we'd be in a weaker position than we are now). This election is about Brexit, and the Lib Dems (+SNP) are more closely aligned to my position than Labour are



You're having a fucking giraffe!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Not as important right now, no. Those issues will crop up in every election, but Brexit will only happen once. And once its done, its done. We can't go back and renegotiate because we got a shit deal (well we could, but we'd be in a weaker position than we are now). This election is about Brexit, and the Lib Dems (+SNP) are more closely aligned to my position than Labour are


and what do you think the limp dems will do with your vote?


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> You're having a fucking giraffe!



Nope.



Pickman's model said:


> and what do you think the limp dems will do with your vote?



Nothing. They will lose in my constituency as its a very safe Tory seat as I've previously said. I just can't bring myself to vote for Labour and their pathetic "opposition" to a Tory Brexit I oppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Nothing. They will lose in my constituency as its a very safe Tory seat as I've previously said. I just can't bring myself to vote for Labour and their pathetic "opposition" to a Tory Brexit I oppose.


so you will vote limp dem, for their pathetick and doomed to fail opposition to a tory brexit you oppose. and no one outside u75 will notice or even care which way you voted.


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> so you will vote limp dem, for their pathetick and doomed to fail opposition to a tory brexit you oppose. and no one outside u75 will notice or even care which way you voted.



Jeez, you really do like posting the obvious don't you 

Tory Brexit will happen whatever way I vote, so LibDem opposition is destined to fail. But,it will fail due to lack of numbers in HoC, not because it can't find find its own arse and decide whether to actually oppose it or not.

No one here as even tried to defend Labours Brexit approach, instead it's shit insults and distractions


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> No one here as even tried to defend Labours Brexit approach, instead it's shit insults and distractions


why would i defend labour's brexit approach when i'm not a labour supporter?


----------



## pocketscience (Apr 21, 2017)

bimble said:


> Inspiring stuff on twitter today. The second one put there by Clive Lewis MP.
> 
> 
> View attachment 104915


Oh dear, the tory doesn't now basic bpmn standards


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> No one here as even tried to defend Labours Brexit approach, instead it's shit insults and distractions



Why don't you familiarise yourself with the forum and posters political stances and arguments and then you might see why.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> why would i defend labour's brexit approach when i'm not a labour supporter?



My comment applies to the whole board, but i will admit that I was under the impression you were goin to vote Labour, my mistake if I got that wrong.

Who do you usually vote for/who will you vote for in this election?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 21, 2017)

Spunking cock ftw innit


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> My comment applies to the whole board, but i will admit that I was under the impression you were goin to vote Labour, my mistake if I got that wrong.
> 
> Who do you usually vote for/who will you vote for in this election?


No one. But most definitely not the piss yellow tories


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> No one.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


>



Still the better option than the fib dems.


----------



## chilango (Apr 21, 2017)

yerself. Follow stethoscope's advice and familiarise yerself with where many of us are coming from politically.

Hint - it's not Labour.


----------



## chilango (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Still the better option than the fib dems.



Yeah,course it is 



chilango said:


> yerself. Follow stethoscope's advice and familiarise yerself with where many of us are coming from politically.
> 
> Hint - it's not Labour.



Yeah I have taken that advice thanks, hence the question to Pickman about his voting intentions . . .


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Yeah,course it is



It really is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


>


Oh dear


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

The only time in the last decade I voted without drawing a rude picture in place of an x is the eureff. Because it was a straight question. And I have been called a cunt for it so many times by those happy to put a vote in for this system


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> It really is.





Pickman's model said:


> Oh dear



I'M CONVINCED!


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 21, 2017)

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C98_CIiXoAAAw4V.jpg


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C98_CIiXoAAAw4V.jpg


and tory voters won't care


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 21, 2017)

i gotta vote tory now cus i got shares in a bank


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> I'M CONVINCED!


I'm convinced too, convinced you're a lickspittle


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm convinced too, convinced you're a lickspittle



Good one Pickman!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Good one Pickman!


I see you're reduced to this feeble banter now your politics have been exposed as as shallow as a puddle of piss.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> i gotta vote tory now cus i got shares in a bank


we've all got shares in a wank bank m8, don't see the tories campaigning about that do you


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I see you're reduced to this feeble banter now your politics have been exposed as as shallow as a puddle of piss.



What other response is there to someone who spends all day on a politics thread and doesn't vote


----------



## chilango (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> What other response is there to someone who spends all day on a politics thread and doesn't vote


Politics = Voting?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> What other response is there to someone who spends all day on a politics thread and doesn't vote


One which doesn't make you look a pillock perhaps


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> One which doesn't make you look a pillock perhaps



Zing!

Another classic Pickman insult


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

chilango said:


> Politics = Voting?



Kinda related though


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Zing!
> 
> Another classic Pickman insult


One trick pony posting a pile of pony


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> repetition doesn't improve your posts



Says the poster whose spent half the thread throwing weak insults


----------



## pengaleng (Apr 21, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> we've all got shares in a wank bank m8, don't see the tories campaigning about that do you



nah but mines real, me card says INVESTOR on it


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Says the poster whose spent half the thread throwing weak insults


Who has, not whose. Not content with throwing variations on the same feeble insult, you're now showing a feeble grasp of English.


----------



## inva (Apr 21, 2017)

imagine knowing someone in real life who's a Lib Dem


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Who has, not whose. Not content with throwing variations on the same feeble insult, you're now showing a feeble grasp of English.



Oh no, not A SPELLING MISTAKE!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 21, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> nah but mines real, me card says INVESTOR on it


morgan-stanley sent me a credit card application spam once. Morgan stanley dean and fucking witter&co. How in the hell the computers thought sending a doley a credit card application was a good idea I do not know. I mean I have always treated credit as a gift to be paid back when circumstances allow it. They must know this, they have algorithms and shit. It's not like they were ever gong to give me a card, so why spam it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Oh no, not A SPELLING MISTAKE!


Yeh it's not a spelling mistake


----------



## WellRounded (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it's not a spelling mistake



OH NO!


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 21, 2017)

You don't know what you're dealing with. He can do this forever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Sweet FA said:


> You don't know what you're dealing with. He can do this forever.


I thought as much


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 21, 2017)

Have we had this?  Ffs. The dullard reactionary vote is completely sewn up.


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 21, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> I thought as much


?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Sweet FA said:


> ?


WellRounded carries on as you describe


----------



## Sweet FA (Apr 21, 2017)




----------



## Who PhD (Apr 21, 2017)

was the question, name three sections of society whom you will fuck over some more?


----------



## yield (Apr 21, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> was the question, name three sections of society whom you will fuck over some more?


Things get interesting when the establishment think the middle classes are those three classes


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> Worrying, but caution as its in the Indy.



As was the shit poll upthread.


----------



## coley (Apr 21, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Jeez, you really do like posting the obvious don't you
> 
> Tory Brexit will happen whatever way I vote, so LibDem opposition is destined to fail. But,it will fail due to lack of numbers in HoC, not because it can't find find its own arse and decide whether to actually oppose it or not.
> 
> No one here as even tried to defend Labours Brexit approach, instead it's shit insults and distractions


No ones tried to defends labours Brexit position because no bugger can find one!


----------



## 19force8 (Apr 21, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Have we had this?  Ffs. The dullard reactionary vote is completely sewn up.



My specs might be misbehaving, but in the front row are their faces melting?

Fucking GSK


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 21, 2017)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Have we had this?  Ffs. The dullard reactionary vote is completely sewn up.




Seeing them standing there listening to May and not reacting in any way makes me weep in despair.
What have we become?
We know what Bob Crow's advice was!


----------



## Lord Camomile (Apr 21, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


>






mikey mikey said:


>






taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Have we had this?  Ffs. The dullard reactionary vote is completely sewn up.


"Workers not allowed to ask questions"
"Workers not allowed to answer questions" (appreciate this may be a rib on the above)
"PM answers questions from workers"


----------



## Smangus (Apr 21, 2017)

All news is fake, even the real shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 21, 2017)

Sprocket. said:


> Seeing them standing there listening to May and not reacting in any way makes me weep in despair.
> What have we become?
> We know what Bob Crow's advice was!


Quick everyone spit and drown her


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Apr 22, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> "Workers not allowed to ask questions"
> "Workers not allowed to answer questions" (appreciate this may be a rib on the above)
> "PM answers questions from workers"



Yep. Well spotted.


----------



## JasonFelcham (Apr 22, 2017)

I hate that androgynous haircut that Teresa May has that women get when their fanny dries up


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 22, 2017)

Lord Camomile said:


> "Workers not allowed to ask questions"
> "Workers not allowed to answer questions" (appreciate this may be a rib on the above)
> "PM answers questions from workers"


----------



## gentlegreen (Apr 22, 2017)

Sarkozy reputedly also used to make sure the workers were of short stature ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Because of course Andy Burnham probably only drinks Mellow Birds. Off a bin lid he found in a skip.



Too posh. Half a teaspoon of Camp, dissolved in his own piss, served on a bin lid he found in a skip, more likely!


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Too posh. Half a teaspoon of Camp, dissolved in his own piss, served on a bin lid he found in a skip, more likely!



His whippet's piss...


----------



## purenarcotic (Apr 22, 2017)

JasonFelcham said:


> I hate that androgynous haircut that Teresa May has that women get when their fanny dries up



Fuck off and then fuck off some more.


----------



## Sue (Apr 22, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Too posh. Half a teaspoon of Camp, dissolved in his own piss, served on a bin lid he found in a skip, more likely!


Long as it's not one of them frothy coffees...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> What has the Labour Party had to say?



Locally to me, it's mostly been "the Tories are forcing us to make cuts" (this after some council cabinet members publicly celebrated the NEC ruling that local authorities can't set "illegal" (i.e. non-balanced) budgets!), and "we're going to demolish your homes, and build new, non-social housing in its' place". They just accept govt fiat, and get on with carrying it out, while crying crocodile tears to their constituents when they're taxed about it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


>




The body language tells its own story.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

Sue said:


> Long as it's not one of them frothy coffees...



Well, if he pisses hard enough...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Spunking cock ftw innit



Spunking cock with a red star tattooed on one side of the ballbag, and a black star on the other.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The body language tells its own story.


Some of them look like they're about to cry.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 22, 2017)

inva said:


> imagine knowing someone in real life who's a Lib Dem



I did.

I beat them to death with a piece of garden hose filled with ball bearings.

Their partner thanked me for it.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I did.
> 
> I beat them to death with a piece of garden hose filled with ball bearings.
> 
> Their partner thanked me for it.



Come to think of it, haven't seen live footage of Clegg for quite a while...


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Is there a single poster on here who thinks that the election *could *go _well _for Labour?


I'll just repeat/ask my own version of this question: my own take on electoral politics is that it is emphatically linked to class politics and class struggle, the last 40 years of elections being a process of taking us further an further into the neo-liberal project. However the perverse bit of me says that elections (and conventional politics more generally) play out within their own logic, or to put it another way, the kind of issues that political commentators bang on about are _real_.  In the abstract any potential party of government has to communicate well, be relatively united, have a way of projecting itself (cynically) onto people's real concerns, give a sense that they are economically competent - and generally avoid looking like a bunch of fucking idiots/avoid gross own goals.  'Commentators' often get this all wrong and in doing so demonstrate their own commitment to neo-liberalism, but are at least pointing to things that are genuine in terms of conventional politics - common sense perhaps.

With all that in mind, I really can't see any possibilities for Labour.  They were/are as far back as they have ever been in the polls (literally) and the period since Corbyn was elected has been worse than a civil war - it's been about the right of the party portraying him as pathetic, unelectable etc.  On top of that, in as much as the election is about brexit, Labour have no plausible position to put. They had a half arsed commitment to remain and can't go full on Lexit now. It won't be convincing and the right will explode.  But going for the 48% doesn't work either, it's a law of diminishing returns scrabble with the libdems in a few seats, but most of all leaves Labour open to losing working class seats to the tories.  Labour have a few provisionally popular policies on public ownership and the NHS but no real detail of new schemes, ways of running things to get the voters back on board.  I really can't see a strategy of any sorts for Labour, apart from going through the motions of attacking the tory record. They can't even attack May for cynically calling the election as Dawn Butler tried.  They are almost at the point of doing the unthinkable of admitting they won't form a government and going with the 'vote Labour to get a reasonably sized opposition'.

Long statement of the obvious perhaps, just trying to see what is available as a strategy.  Vaguely remember posting something along these lines a while before the 2015 election about the difficulties Miliband would have building a plausible 'narrative' to win the election. Seems to be the case now, on steroids.

Edit: 8 word version: is there a damage limitation strategy for Labour?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

I'll no doubt be proved wrong as usual but I don't see any way back for labour really. They lost scotland, and while yes it was the indy reff that was the straw the camels back was already well loaded down. Its infested with careerist liberals. It simply isn't trusted anymore, not by the older labour voters it left behind nor by the younger voters who remember blair and his party's betrayals as the first real 'wow all politicians really are dickheads' moment. Theres a real disconnect in places that should be and were once labours stomping ground

But the last rites have been said over the party more than few times in the last 100 yrs.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Long statement of the obvious perhaps, just trying to see what is available as a strategy.  Vaguely remember posting something along these lines a while before the 2015 election about the difficulties Miliband would have building a plausible 'narrative' to win the election. Seems to be the case now, on steroids.



Maybe it is a statement of the obvious but it's a well-put one. Once we got past a certain point on the road to neo-liberalism, it seems, there was no plausible way (even within the 'abstract' logic of electoral politics, as you put it) to offer any semblance of left-wing opposition, because they've basically fully bought into a mostly right-wing ideology. So Blair succeeds by offering competent management, with a sprinkling of equalities-and-social-inclusion fairy dust. Which, while it might temporarily feel better than another kick in the face from the Tories, doesn't really cut it for long, especially once every sees that the management isn't all that competent after all and the nice socially liberal policies don't really balance the scales of the increased warmongering and PFIing and so on.

So they've hollowed themselves out. I've felt all along that Corbyn and McDonnell mean well, but I can't see any point in pursuing their 'strategy', such as it is, from within an institution that's so completely complicit in the neo-liberal system that their well-meaning policies are supposed to counter.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I'll no doubt be proved wrong as usual but I don't see any way back for labour really. They lost scotland, and while yes it was the indy reff that was the straw the camels back was already well loaded down. Its infested with careerist liberals. It simply isn't trusted anymore, not by the older labour voters it left behind nor by the younger voters who remember blair and his party's betrayals as the first real 'wow all politicians really are dickheads' moment. Theres a real disconnect in places that should be and were once labours stomping ground
> 
> But the last rites have been said over the party more than few times in the last 100 yrs.


Fuck, yeah, I forgot to mention Scotland in Labour's tale of woe.   And as you say, there's a disconnect - a sort of double disconnect in that the party has no real connection but isn't able to even spin a political connection.  And yes on what we are left with. Labour is a national party with a fair amount of money and an infrastructure. It sits there in a first past the post system as the nominal alternative on the centre left. It never quite dies, never creates a space for something else.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 22, 2017)




----------



## bimble (Apr 22, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I did.
> 
> I beat them to death with a piece of garden hose filled with ball bearings.
> 
> Their partner thanked me for it.


I'd like you to meet my brother in law.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


>


 I think Maygneto's going to win this one.

[coat]


----------



## magneze (Apr 22, 2017)

I don't know if anyone else agrees but from around the day after the election was announced the Tories seem to have been on the back foot. Aren't they meant to be the party well prepared for this? Could this be an almighty fuck-up? I do hope so. *crosses fingers and toes*


----------



## Raheem (Apr 22, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


>


"OK, so I asked you to get hold of the number for Jean-Luc Mélenchon. Now, talk me through what happened after that."


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 22, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


>



LONG LIVE THE FIGHTERS!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

to baldly vote etc


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> to baldly vote etc


Son, have you ever kissed a girl?


----------



## Raheem (Apr 22, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Maybe it is a statement of the obvious but it's a well-put one. Once we got past a certain point on the road to neo-liberalism, it seems, there was no plausible way (even within the 'abstract' logic of electoral politics, as you put it) to offer any semblance of left-wing opposition, because they've basically fully bought into a mostly right-wing ideology. So Blair succeeds by offering competent management, with a sprinkling of equalities-and-social-inclusion fairy dust. Which, while might temporarily feel better than another kick in the face from the Tories, doesn't really cut it for long, especially once every sees that the management isn't all that competent after all and the nice socially liberal policies don't really balance the scales of the increased warmongering and PFIing and so on.
> 
> So they've hollowed themselves out. I've felt all along that Corbyn and McDonnell mean well, but I can't see any point in pursuing their 'strategy', such as it is, from within an institution that's so completely complicit in the neo-liberal system that their well-meaning policies are supposed to counter.



This is pretty much how it is in terms of Corbyn specifically. But going back to how things were is also a dead end for Labour, and I think it's likely that enough of them appreciate that. So, Labour is probably and the start of a decade of wandering, at the end of which it may or may not end up somewhere that works. Who knows where that might be?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

As well as the bigger 'labour is fucked/where does labour go on June the 9th' stuff, there's still the election strategy/what does Labour do before the 8th?  Is there a line they can take, something to focus on that allows them to, for example, only lose 30 seats rather than 50?  Beyond some kind of 'let's move on, it's about jobs services and the NHS' line, I'm struggling to think of anything, at least anything that would be _plausible_.  That's what I'm getting at in all this really, I can't remember a party ever being quite as boxed in as Labour is at the moment.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 22, 2017)

Raheem said:


> This is pretty much how it is in terms of Corbyn specifically. But going back to how things were is also a dead end for Labour, and I think it's likely that enough of them appreciate that.



I'm not so sure. A large chunk of the PLP were only too happy to back Owen Smith- a featureless, charmless identikit Blairite- against Corbyn.


----------



## treelover (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> to baldly vote etc



Not worthy of you.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

treelover said:


> Not worthy of you.


he's proud of his hairless pate and has worn it since I was a boy. It helps if you have the nose to carry it off and he does. I mean no ageism. Captain Picard would not be captain picard without his dome. It was intended that Riker be the sexy one (for the audience). The skinny bald english guy, well no. But in the end it was ole slaphead who topped the sexiest man polls and that.

anyway derail


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> As well as the bigger 'labour is fucked/where does labour go on June the 9th' stuff, there's still the election strategy/what does Labour do before the 8th?  Is there a line they can take, something to focus on that allows them to, for example, only lose 30 seats rather than 50?  Beyond some kind of 'let's move on, it's about jobs services and the NHS' line, I'm struggling to think of anything, at least anything that would be _plausible_.  That's what I'm getting at in all this really, I can't remember a party ever being quite as boxed in as Labour is at the moment.



Of course there's the added obstacle that a chunk of the Labour machine actively want to lose this election.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> he's proud of his hairless pate and has worn it since I was a boy. It helps if you have the nose to carry it off and he does. I mean no ageism. Captain Picard would not be captain picard without his dome. It was intended that Riker be the sexy one (for the audience). The skinny bald english guy, well no. But in the end it was ole slaphead who topped the sexiest man polls and that.
> 
> anyway derail


Troi or Crusher? Where do you stand on the key issues?


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Troi or Crusher? Where do you stand on the key issues?


Bellana Torres. Maquis fighter.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

chilango said:


> Of course there's the added obstacle that a chunk of the Labour machine actively want to lose this election.


and theres the thing with what Wilf was saying about FPTP. You have to be in a broad alliance of interests within a party to win. If even a third of the alliance of interests has decided to tank you completely, well they can. And they will play the long game as you suggest


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

Raheem said:


> So, Labour is probably and the start of a decade of wandering, at the end of which it may or may not end up somewhere that works. Who knows where that might be?





Wilf said:


> As well as the bigger 'labour is fucked/where does labour go on June the 9th' stuff, there's still the election strategy/what does Labour do before the 8th?  Is there a line they can take, something to focus on that allows them to, for example, only lose 30 seats rather than 50?  Beyond some kind of 'let's move on, it's about jobs services and the NHS' line, I'm struggling to think of anything, at least anything that would be _plausible_.  That's what I'm getting at in all this really, I can't remember a party ever being quite as boxed in as Labour is at the moment.



I think a decade is optimistic. My pessimistic view is no, there isn't a plausible line. I really think the best they can do is keep a tight rein on any more acts (like Butler/Mair) that are just going to further perpetuate the idea (whether you think there's any truth to it or not) that they're bungling student-lefties who couldn't organise a strike in a French lorry drivers' union, and be glad it was a snap election and they don't have to spend six months leading in to it.

It's even tempting to think that the worse they do, the better it could be for them in the longer term. Anything which enables them to muddle through and pretend that the current approach is working (or that the approach of the circling Blairite vultures would work) just delays the time in the wilderness they need if they're ever going to come back with something more plausible again (though of course they might still fail to do that...)


----------



## ferrelhadley (Apr 22, 2017)

This is up to the end of 2016 so does not have some of the UKIP collapse (edited to add: they seem to have shed around 3% over the past couple of polls but that could just be a bit of random variation, they polling does seem below 10% atm). What it is useful for is what was being said in the polling thread late last year, the Tories are really hoovering up UKIP votes rather than Labour ones. Labour are loosing most of their votes to undecided, or at least were.
The "SNP\Labour" supposed coalition of 2015 probably helped drive maginal voters to the tories. It is my guess that the possibility of an unencumbered Tory party might push some of those who voted for Miliband 15 back to Labour to try to mitigate against that.Off course the current state of the top of the Labour party is going down like a sandwich filled with human shit with many voters who would be most likely to break from Labour to Tory so they may end up just getting 25%ish come 8th June. The dont knows who voted Labour last time do seem to be Labours most likely productive group of potential voters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2017)

treelover said:


> Not worthy of you.


Your posts always worthy of you


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

Nomination papers are due on the 11th May. We should run a poll on how long after that before the beeb run an item about Labour candidates not mentioning Corbyn in their leaflets.  Actually, we'll get a warm up version along the same lines in the local elections.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Nomination papers are due on the 11th May. We should run a poll on how long after that before the beeb run an item about Labour candidates not mentioning Corbyn in their leaflets.  Actually, we'll get a warm up version along the same lines in the local elections.


Just do it about lab candidates mentioning jc, easier to keep track like that


----------



## bimble (Apr 22, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Oh FFS  The UK won't be bringing back the death penalty. We won't descend into barbarism just because we leave the EU.


Long as this person doesn't get very far in her ambitions. The Guillotine no less.  There should be more of these sort of candidates, for the entertainment.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

pierrepoint murdered his prisoners far quicker than madame guillotine. Just in a days work attitude. Rank.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> Long as this person doesn't get very far in her ambitions. The Guillotine no less.  There should be more of these sort of candidates, for the entertainment.
> View attachment 105012


Splendid stuff.  I particularly like that the bit about assisted dying is immediately followed by 'people are becoming far too old'.


----------



## NoXion (Apr 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> Long as this person doesn't get very far in her ambitions. The Guillotine no less.  There should be more of these sort of candidates, for the entertainment.
> View attachment 105012



How the fuck are China and India the greatest danger to the world? If anything they've got the most to be concerned about since they have the greater portion of the world's population.


----------



## bimble (Apr 22, 2017)

it's quite good isn't it. No more free bus passes - get up and walk! or ride a horse.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> Long as this person doesn't get very far in her ambitions. The Guillotine no less.


Never thought I'd see a kipper learning lessons from revolutionary France.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

If she was proper British she'd use a lump hammer!


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> it's quite good isn't it. No more free bus passes - get up and walk! or ride a horse.



At least she sets out all of her views concisely without wittering on about values or hard working families


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

NoXion said:


> How the fuck are China and India the greatest danger to the world? If anything they've got the most to be concerned about since they have the greater portion of the world's population.


they're seen as the 'emerging' nations. Ergo, they are a threat to christendom. Godless reds, hindoos and musselmen. etc


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

Theresa May’s election ‘power grab’ slammed by EU’s Guy Verhofstadt

EU Parliament Brexit feller rips May's claims about the election to shreds. His comments are not going to affect the election itself because, well, nobody gives a shit what he thinks. But it does indicate how pissed off they are about her/Davis,


----------



## NoXion (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they're seen as the 'emerging' nations. Ergo, they are a threat to christendom. Godless reds, hindoos and musselmen. etc



Well, that certainly makes them a threat to the egos of British nationalists pining for the lost Empire. Not sure that the world is going explode on that account, however. Although India and Pakistan kicking off could cause some damage.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> they're seen as the 'emerging' nations. Ergo, they are a threat to christendom. Godless reds, hindoos and musselmen. etc


Musselmen a subtype of fishmongers


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Musselmen a subtype of fishmongers


((((Preachers of Skate)))))


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 22, 2017)

Holy mackerel!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

Meanwhile, Labour continues to flounder.


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 22, 2017)

Faith eelers!


----------



## bluescreen (Apr 22, 2017)

Labour has too many plaice men.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)




----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>


 You fucker, you did that deliberately while I was distracted looking for a picture of Alex Salmond!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> You fucker, you did that deliberately while I was distracted looking for a picture of Alex Salmond!


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


>


 Not playing now.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

Harry Ramsden for PM!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Harry Ramsden for PM!


From mutiny on the 'Potemkin' to fish and chips in North Strand


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> If she was proper British she'd use a lump hammer!



Just no fucking ice-picks, alright?

'Gisela' - good, solid British name, that


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Just no fucking ice-picks, alright?
> 
> 'Gisela' - good, solid British name, that


We need some proper British forms of execution: death by being slightly jostled?


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> We need some proper British forms of execution: death by being slightly jostled?


Deprivation of potatoes.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> We need some proper British forms of execution: death by being slightly jostled?


Drowned by drizzle.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

Extreme disapproval.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 22, 2017)

The sentence of this court is that you will be taken from this place, where someone will say to you 'it's not just me you've let down, you've let yourself down' until you are dead. And may God have mercy upon your soul.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> Deprivation of potatoes.


Transportation to a land where the sun never goes away and every bit of flora and fauna wants you dead


----------



## not a trot (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Harry Ramsden for PM!



With Captain Birdseye as Defence Secretary.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Transportation to a land where the sun never goes away and every bit of flora and fauna wants you dead


Or Milton Keynes as it's known.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> Transportation to a land where the sun never goes away and every bit of flora and fauna wants you dead


And the lager is ice cold!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 22, 2017)

weltweit said:


> And the lager is ice cold!


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 22, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


>




What I've always loved about that song is that the hobos dreaming about this fantastical place don't want untold riches and luxury, just slightly better versions of what they've already got. So they still eat stew and drink whiskey, not caviare and fine wines, but they're available in lake-like quantities. They still get put in jail and harassed by railroad bulls, but the jails are easy to break out of and the bulls are polite. The guard dogs still bite them, but their rubber teeth don't hurt so much.

What I'm saying is, it's an appropriate choice for a Very British Punishment, because there's something very British about the limits of its ambition.


----------



## JTG (Apr 22, 2017)

bimble said:


> Long as this person doesn't get very far in her ambitions. The Guillotine no less.  There should be more of these sort of candidates, for the entertainment.
> View attachment 105012


Well anyone promising to abolish golf gets my vote tbf

May alienate UKIP's core vote though


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> We need some proper British forms of execution: death by being slightly jostled?



Run out of teabags.


----------



## Raheem (Apr 22, 2017)

JTG said:


> Well anyone promising to abolish golf gets my vote tbf
> 
> May alienate UKIP's core vote though :hmm



I reckon she only put the bit about golf in there to make herself look like a moderate.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 22, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> The only time in the last decade I voted without drawing a rude picture in place of an x is the eureff. Because it was a straight question. And I have been called a cunt for it so many times by those happy to put a vote in for this system



If you wanna smite the ruling class then why wouldn't you vote labour this time round? There were sections of the elite in the tory party, the rightwing media and the capitalist class that backed Brexit. Literally the entire elite are united in their hatred of Corbyn. If there's one election where we've got a chance to say a very loud and very clear 'fuck you' to the scum and vermin that run this country, it's this one, and the way to do it is to vote labour. The tories couldn't give two shits about spoiled ballots.


----------



## chilango (Apr 22, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> If you wanna smite the ruling class then why wouldn't you vote labour this time round? There were sections of the elite in the tory party, the rightwing media and the capitalist class that backed Brexit. Literally the entire elite are united in their hatred of Corbyn. If there's one election where we've got a chance to say a very loud and very clear 'fuck you' to the scum and vermin that run this country, it's this one, and the way to do it is to vote labour. The tories couldn't give two shits about spoiled ballots.



What about the "scum and vermin that run my town"?

They're Labour.


----------



## bimble (Apr 22, 2017)

chilango said:


> What about the "scum and vermin that run my town"?
> 
> They're Labour.


Same. I live in a place that's a safest of safe Labour seat and the council is full of complete venal arseholes. They're about to sell off the playground to developers for luxury flats. I've met these people, I'm not fucking voting for them.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 22, 2017)

I must have missed how voting Labour is going to sock it to the ruling class.

Besides, I honestly don't think 'the elite' hate Corbyn at all. They think he's a mostly backbench 'protest' MP of many years standing, whom whilst has managed to inspire a wave of unexpected popularity, is still largely an irrelevance to them and lacks any real long term power to harm capital and class interests.

Let's face it, the elite don't need to hate him, the Labour PLP are doing enough of that as it is to work in their favour.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 22, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> If you wanna smite the ruling class then why wouldn't you vote labour this time round? There were sections of the elite in the tory party, the rightwing media and the capitalist class that backed Brexit. Literally the entire elite are united in their hatred of Corbyn. If there's one election where we've got a chance to say a very loud and very clear 'fuck you' to the scum and vermin that run this country, it's this one, and the way to do it is to vote labour. The tories couldn't give two shits about spoiled ballots.


I just can't do it jeff. Iron Corbz seems like a good egg but its a broken system. I really did think about it during the three quidders surge but in the end I slapped myself and remembered why I am a rev socialist. I just can't, they are the enemy to me as much as the tories are. And when they come to you with smiles and reassurances...no.


----------



## neonwilderness (Apr 22, 2017)

Labour seeks to create four new bank holidays, Corbyn announces

This should win back some of the working class votes


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> I must have missed how voting Labour is going to sock it to the ruling class.
> 
> Besides, I honestly don't think 'the elite' hate Corbyn at all. They think he's a mostly backbench 'protest' MP of many years standing, whom whilst has managed to inspire a wave of unexpected popularity, is still largely an irrelevance to them and lacks any real long term power to harm capital and class interests.
> 
> Let's face it, the elite don't need to hate him, the Labour PLP are doing enough of that as it is to work in their favour.


He doesn't even _plan_ to sock it to the ruling class.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 23, 2017)

neonwilderness said:


> Labour seeks to create four new bank holidays, Corbyn announces
> 
> This should win back some of the working class votes



You can add four new bank holidays to- Free school meals for primary school children - £10 minimum wage - Nationalise rail - Renationalise NHS - Abolish tuition fees- Preserving triple-lock step pensions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> I must have missed how voting Labour is going to sock it to the ruling class.
> 
> Besides, I honestly don't think 'the elite' hate Corbyn at all. They think he's a mostly backbench 'protest' MP of many years standing, whom whilst has managed to inspire a wave of unexpected popularity, is still largely an irrelevance to them and lacks any real long term power to harm capital and class interests.
> 
> Let's face it, the elite don't need to hate him, the Labour PLP are doing enough of that as it is to work in their favour.


If MPs are not part of the elite, the term elite has no meaning


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2017)

neonwilderness said:


> Labour seeks to create four new bank holidays, Corbyn announces
> 
> This should win back some of the working class votes


More hols for bankers


----------



## binka (Apr 23, 2017)

neonwilderness said:


> Labour seeks to create four new bank holidays, Corbyn announces
> 
> This should win back some of the working class votes


Sounds great at first but no one wants a mid-week bank holiday. Can't he just give us all of August off like the french?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> More hols for bankers


tbf I'd like to see one very long 'holiday' for investment bankers.


----------



## Sue (Apr 23, 2017)

binka said:


> Sounds great at first but no one wants a mid-week bank holiday. Can't he just give us all of August off like the french?


I'd rather a mid-week bank holiday than no bank holiday at all...


----------



## neonwilderness (Apr 23, 2017)

Sue said:


> I'd rather a mid-week bank holiday than no bank holiday at all...


This. I can't see many workers complaining about an extra four days off each year.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 23, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> If you wanna smite the ruling class then why wouldn't you vote labour this time round? There were sections of the elite in the tory party, the rightwing media and the capitalist class that backed Brexit. Literally the entire elite are united in their hatred of Corbyn. If there's one election where we've got a chance to say a very loud and very clear 'fuck you' to the scum and vermin that run this country, it's this one, and the way to do it is to vote labour. The tories couldn't give two shits about spoiled ballots.


How is voting for the Labour shits that abstained on the Disability Bill, voted for the Iraq War, attempted to block inquiries into the Iraq war, voted against arms sanctions to Saudi Arabia, oppose Corbyn, argue against nationalisation, attack working class communities, stay silent when labour councils (attempt to) make dodgy deals with private enterprise or cut services etc saying 'fuck you' to the them.

I might just be able to vote Labour if I was in a constituency where the Labour candidate had opposed some of those things but I'm not, and neither are all but a handful of people.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 23, 2017)

More than anything I want Philip Davies to lose his seat


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 23, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> More than anything I want Philip Davies to lose his seat



He can go and stand in a corner and weep with his dad Peter, whose plans as elected mayor of Doncaster have been totally merged with the current UKIP candidate. Phil and Pete are both piles of poo!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> More than anything I want Philip Davies to lose his seat


Just his seat?


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

neonwilderness said:


> This. I can't see many workers complaining about an extra four days off each year.



I will. I'm self-employed and have a child in primary school. Bank holidays are a day off earning.


----------



## Sue (Apr 23, 2017)

binka said:


> Sounds great at first but no one wants a mid-week bank holiday. Can't he just give us all of August off like the french?


And just to add that in France if the date of a bank holiday falls at the weekend, you lose it.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 23, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> More than anything I want Philip Davies to lose his seat



I presume you mean this guy, sounds like a delighful excuse for a human being.

Women’s Equality Party seeks to oust ‘sexist’ MP Philip Davies


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I will. I'm self-employed and have a child in primary school. Bank holidays are a day off earning.


How so billy_bob ?


----------



## Raheem (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I will. I'm self-employed and have a child in primary school. Bank holidays are a day off earning.



Most likely there would be four extra school days at other times to make up for the new bank holidays, otherwise it would be an education cut.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> I presume you mean this guy, sounds like a delighful excuse for a human being.
> 
> Women’s Equality Party seeks to oust ‘sexist’ MP Philip Davies


It's a nice idea, trying to get the other candidates to step aside (if Labour were willing to do it. From memory they have in a couple of cases, but only in specific local circumstances). Trouble is Shipley voted Brexit, whereas the Women's Equality candidate is a remainer.  The maths probably doesn't add up.  Though any attempt to get such loathsome shitbags out are worth a try.  In fact, given the likely outcome of the election, the odd 'Portillo Moment' is about the best we can hope for.


----------



## chilango (Apr 23, 2017)

brogdale said:


> tbf I'd like to see one very long 'holiday' for investment bankers.



A working holiday, accommodation provided, several years in length?


----------



## brogdale (Apr 23, 2017)

chilango said:


> A working holiday, accommodation provided, several years in length?


Hard-working.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

Sentencing guidelines for investment Bankers.

1. Bloke got 6 months in the riots for stealing £3.50 in bottles of water
2. Ask them how much they got for their last bonus e.g. £50,000
3. £50,000/£3.50 = 14,285.  6 months x 14,285 = 7,142 years, 6 months

Get in yer manifesto Corbyn!


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2017)

free sack of rock salt on release


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2017)

The bank holiday thing is a bit odd. Maybe it's meant to bring out the usual CBI spokespeople to tell us how every day of holiday costs U.K. business ten billion pounds. I don't think they realise how bad that makes them look every time.


----------



## J Ed (Apr 23, 2017)

U75 fave Streeck weighs in


teqniq said:


> I presume you mean this guy, sounds like a delighful excuse for a human being.
> 
> Women’s Equality Party seeks to oust ‘sexist’ MP Philip Davies



The WEP is a party for rich women who listen to Radio 4, Davies would trounce them. Allowing opposition to the likes of Davies to fall to the WEP would be a real mistake.


----------



## agricola (Apr 23, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The bank holiday thing is a bit odd. Maybe it's meant to bring out the usual CBI spokespeople to tell us how every day of holiday costs U.K. business ten billion pounds. I don't think they realise how bad that makes them look every time.



The initial response seems to be to point out that some businesses take bank holidays out of people's holiday entitlements and criticize him for not realizing that.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> The initial response seems to be to point out that some businesses take bank holidays out of people's holiday entitlements and criticize him for not realizing that.


That could also be a desired outcome, given that the general response to that would be "what shitbags". Then they could announce they'd ban the practice.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2017)

I remember the first time I got paid double to do a bank holiday. Late 20s. I was gobsmacked. One of the old boys says 'well, its not our fault its a public holiday is it?' Which when you think about it is reasonable. But if you told kids today they wouldn't believe you etc


----------



## tim (Apr 23, 2017)

agricola said:


> The initial response seems to be to point out that some businesses take bank holidays out of people's holiday entitlements and criticize him for not realizing that.



Adding four days to the statuary minimum holiday entitlement would solves this. There's precedence for this as the minimum leave was raised from 20 to 28 days about 8years ago to make sure that those working on bank holidaya weren't diddled


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Apr 23, 2017)

And the Green's 3 day weekend. Jezza missed a trick there!


----------



## agricola (Apr 23, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> I remember the first time I got paid double to do a bank holiday. Late 20s. I was gobsmacked. One of the old boys says 'well, its not our fault its a public holiday is it?' Which when you think about it is reasonable. But if you told kids today they wouldn't believe you etc



New Labour's one genuine achievement was that week between Christmas 1999 and New Year's Day 2000 where almost every one of the days was a bank holiday.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

J Ed said:


> U75 fave Streeck weighs in
> 
> 
> The WEP is a party for rich women who listen to Radio 4, Davies would trounce them. Allowing opposition to the likes of Davies to fall to the WEP would be a real mistake.


But, but... Sandi Toksvig is on the _telly_!


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 23, 2017)

Sue said:


> And just to add that in France if the date of a bank holiday falls at the weekend, you lose it.



On the other hand, if it falls midweek you get extra days off to _make the bridge_ between the holiday and the weekend. Actually I don't know if this happens any more but it used to.


----------



## Sue (Apr 23, 2017)

mojo pixy said:


> On the other hand, if it falls midweek you get extra days off to _make the bridge_ between the holiday and the weekend. Actually I don't know if this happens any more but it used to.



Depends on where you work really. And ime doesn't apply to all bank holidays -- I used to get two 'pont' days a year.


----------



## mojo pixy (Apr 23, 2017)

Fair enough, these things never really work the same for everyone in every job, exemptions and exceptions are bound to abound.


----------



## binka (Apr 23, 2017)

Sue said:


> I'd rather a mid-week bank holiday than no bank holiday at all...


You're showing a real poverty of ambition there Sue


----------



## Sue (Apr 23, 2017)

binka said:


> You're showing a real poverty of ambition there Sue


----------



## 8den (Apr 23, 2017)

One thing about British elections is it does tend to bring UKIP nutters out of the wood work.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2017)

I think we can safely say that UKIP will not win the reins of power come June.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 23, 2017)

> Tony Blair has advised voters to consider backing Conservative or Liberal Democrat candidates in June’s general election, if they promise to have an open mind on the terms of the final Brexit deal.



Well that about wraps it up for this time, here's Tom with the weather!


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 23, 2017)

teqniq said:


> I presume you mean this guy, sounds like a delighful excuse for a human being.
> 
> Women’s Equality Party seeks to oust ‘sexist’ MP Philip Davies


You are correct.

Odious misognist bullshit-peddler and serial filibusterer. 

I despise his very DNA - and I suspect he has a very safe seat where he is supported by the usual cloister of 'independent businessmen' aristocrats and higher-ups in our society


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Well that about wraps it up for this time, here's Tom with the weather!


Might as well just expel him now. Not sure that doing that will gain Labour any actual votes, _but boy it will feel good_.


----------



## 8den (Apr 23, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I think we can safely say that UKIP will not win the reins of power come June.



What is it about the election UKIP and animal fucking?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Might as well just expel him now. Not sure that doing that will gain Labour any actual votes, _but boy it will feel good_.


Would just result in a load of "why oh why does Stalinist Corbyn hate free speech" thinkpieces though.

The G really doesn't appreciate quite how much everyone hates Blair, or that they hate him at all, so it's best to have them continually posting his shit and damaging their message unintentionally.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 23, 2017)

8den said:


> What is it about the election UKIP and animal fucking?



Get the nanny state out of my nanny goat.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

8den said:


> What is it about the election UKIP and animal fucking?



SNP and Libdem killjoys.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 23, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The G really doesn't appreciate quite how much everyone hates Blair, or that they hate him at all, so it's best to have them continually posting his shit and damaging their message unintentionally.



the beeb have wheeled him out as well in the last few days. Maybe it takes 40 years of virulent hatred to sink it into their bubble heads like with thatcher


----------



## 8den (Apr 23, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Get the nanny state out of my nanny goat.





Wilf said:


> SNP and Libdem killjoys.




Shall we change urban's tagline to "baby killing goat fucking anarchists" then?


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Shall we change urban's tagline to "baby killing goat fucking anarchists" then?


How dare you, I object to that strongly!!    It's baby _eating_ goat fucking anarchists.


----------



## 8den (Apr 23, 2017)

Wilf said:


> How dare you, I object to that strongly!!    It's baby _eating_ goat fucking anarchists.



Soz, I'm also following the results of the Irish Citizen's Assembly on Abortion, who have voted in favour of massive liberalising of our abortion laws. So I'm having fun with ProLifers getting furious with "Baby Killers" as well. Can't keep track of every genocidal conspiracy theory I've supposedly responsible for ATM.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 23, 2017)

8den said:


> Soz, I'm also following the results of the Irish Citizen's Assembly on Abortion, who have voted in favour of massive liberalising of our abortion laws. So I'm having fun with ProLifers getting furious with "Baby Killers" as well. Can't keep track of every genocidal conspiracy theory I've supposedly responsible for ATM.


On behalf of the goat fucking community, I accept your apology.


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 23, 2017)

8den said:


> What is it about the election UKIP and animal fucking?



Well, I'm convinced. Where do I write to to join the UKIP bestiality caucus?


----------



## treelover (Apr 23, 2017)

ComRes at 8.50pm on Saturday:

Westminster voting intention:

CON: 50% (+4)
LAB: 25% (-)
LDEM: 11% (-)
UKIP: 7% (-2)

(via ComRes)

FFS!


----------



## andysays (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I will. I'm self-employed and have a child in primary school. Bank holidays are a day off earning.



And most people who are employed have a contract which specifies the number days of paid holiday they have per year *including Bank Holidays*, so increasing the number of BHs will actually *reduce* the number of days paid holiday which you're able to choose at a time which suits you...


----------



## gosub (Apr 23, 2017)

andysays said:


> And most people who are employed have a contract which specifies the number days of paid holiday they have per year *including Bank Holidays*, so increasing the number of BHs will actually *reduce* the number of days paid holiday which you're able to choose at a time which suits you...
> 
> View attachment 105101



And will lead to flooding....it always rains on a bank holiday weekend


----------



## phillm (Apr 23, 2017)

andysays said:


> And most people who are employed have a contract which specifies the number days of paid holiday they have per year *including Bank Holidays*, so increasing the number of BHs will actually *reduce* the number of days paid holiday which you're able to choose at a time which suits you...
> 
> View attachment 105101



poor old Jez damned if he does and just damned really....

one lesson he seems to have learnt from ED Millipede is not to carry banannas so it's not all bad.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 23, 2017)

andysays said:


> And most people who are employed have a contract which specifies the number days of paid holiday they have per year *including Bank Holidays*, so increasing the number of BHs will actually *reduce* the number of days paid holiday which you're able to choose at a time which suits you...


Not if the law for minimum holiday days is changed. It's entirely doable - not like there isn't already that law in place.


----------



## andysays (Apr 23, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not if the law for minimum holiday days is changed. It's entirely doable - not like there isn't already that law in place.



As far as I'm aware (and I've only read about it on this thread and the story on the BBC site, which I can't find ATM, so it may have been mentioned elsewhere) Corbyn hasn't said anything about changing the number of minimum holiday days, so while your comment is strictly correct, it's not really relevant to the current situation.

And of course, any Labour proposal to actually increase the number of minimum holiday days would be immediately torn to pieces in the media and would likely lead to significant loss of jobs and/or worsening of other conditions in the most precarious parts of the job market, like those on zero-hour contracts or working through employment agencies, which is why Corbyn is unlikely to make such a proposal.

If Labour want even to win back the voters they've apparently lost since the last GE, far less convince any new voters, they're going to have to do way better than promising extra Bank Holidays.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

andysays said:


> And most people who are employed have a contract which specifies the number days of paid holiday they have per year *including Bank Holidays*, so increasing the number of BHs will actually *reduce* the number of days paid holiday which you're able to choose at a time which suits you...



Yeah, good point. Can't see many employers not just reducing the discretionary holiday allowance to compensate.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Yeah, good point. Can't see many employers not just reducing the discretionary holiday allowance to compensate.


I've not read the policy proposal, but I can't see them not having thought of that.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've not read the policy proposal, but I can't see them not having thought of that.



I hope you're right, but as a policy it has a gimmicky, superficial feel which suggests an attempt to grab a positive headline for once rather than anything something the effect of which has been thought through at length.


----------



## not a trot (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> I hope you're right, but as a policy it has a gimmicky, superficial feel which suggests an attempt to grab a positive headline for once rather than anything something the effect of *which has been thought through at length.[/*QUOTE]
> 
> 
> Not likely to happen with Corbyns party.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

not a trot said:


> Not likely to happen with Corbyns party



I'm not a defender of 'Corbyns party' particularly, but that sounds like a kneejerk reaction straight out of the letters pages of the hostile media. There've been extensive consultations with respected economists of the 'anti-austerity' stripe in the development of their economic policy, for example, as well as talking fairly widely about them to actual people. I confess I don't really know how close to a credible, well-crafted policy it now is as a result, but it seems a fairly thorough process of getting to one - neither made up on the hoof, nor ideologically driven but with no sense of reality.

Whether they've shown great skill, or had any success, at getting such policy 'out there' into the minds of the voting public is a different matter.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2017)

I'm fine with (a bare minimum of) 4 extra Bank Holidays as an idea, but to be ultrapicky, what I object to most are the proposed dates.

St Andrews is a bit too close to Christmas and the other three are too close to Easter and to the May Bank holidays.

IMO, what we really need is to be given one in early to mid February, one the last Monday in June  , one in early to mid October, and another one sometime in the summer.

In _addition_ to the ones that Corbyn is proposing


----------



## Bernie Gunther (Apr 23, 2017)

What about the four main Wiccan ones?

They're nicely distributed and (fake) authentically British too


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 23, 2017)

I fucking hate bank holidays. The Great Struggle Against Boredom at its worst.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2017)

Bernie Gunther said:


> What about the four main Wiccan ones?
> 
> They're nicely distributed and (fake) authentically British too




Nice one .....


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I fucking hate bank holidays. The Great Struggle Against Boredom at it's worst.




Let me have yours to add to the ones I get, then.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 23, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Let me have yours to add to the ones I get, then.


With pleasure. I'll email you them.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

Is there any reason we couldn't use them as payment in kind? Sounds quite sensible to me.


----------



## yield (Apr 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I fucking hate bank holidays. The Great Struggle Against Boredom at it's worst.


I don't get that. There's always something to read or see. Never been bored.


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 23, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Is there any reason we couldn't use them as payment in kind? Sounds quite sensible to me.



What, cash payment? 

I'd rather have the lie-ins/days off personally


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 23, 2017)

yield said:


> I don't get that. There's always something to read or see. Never been bored.


Well I'm not really. It's just having to put up with everybody else wanting to do 'something special', and breaking me out of my well-established, miserable routine.


----------



## yield (Apr 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Well I'm not really. It's just having to put up with everybody else wanting to do 'something special', and breaking me out of my well-established, miserable routine.


Yeah even being miserable is fun though. And there's always the pub. Maybe I'm stupid but I have a very low pleasure threshold.


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 23, 2017)

yield said:


> Yeah even being miserable is fun though. And there's always the pub.


Exactly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> I fucking hate bank holidays. The Great Struggle Against Boredom at it's worst.


Double time at work tho


----------



## RD2003 (Apr 23, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Double time at work tho


Not for me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2017)

RD2003 said:


> Not for me.


Ah well


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 23, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> What, cash payment?
> 
> I'd rather have the lie-ins/days off personally



No, I mean if I don't want my bank holiday I can use it to pay you for X instead of cash, so you get extra days off.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 23, 2017)

Pass the sick bag.

Consider voting Tory or Lib Dems over Brexit, Tony Blair says


----------



## Corax (Apr 24, 2017)

http://inews.co.uk/opinion/dennis-skinner-theresa-may-called-election-tory-fraud-investigation/


> “*Any* Labour government is better than a Tory government”, he booms, adding, “even Blair”.



_Steady on_ now Dennis.


----------



## Cheesypoof (Apr 24, 2017)

i worry about this election so much....im an Irish person but I used to live in England and ADORE the place. Its my second home, and most of my best friends are there. I have my pension there and will end up in England. I even speak with a slightly British accent - if you want to hear who i talk like, go and listen to Ruth Negga on youtube. we speak the same, although im skankier 

i feel so weird about this election cos Mrs May seems...how do i put this, _formidable?_ But if i had my British vote i would never ever vote anything but Labour.


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 24, 2017)

On Slugger Signs of dramatic Tory revival causes new headache for Sturgeon’s Indyref 2 strategy

Another dismal sign for Labour. Tory support up 18% in Scotland. Back to the days of Grocer Ted at 33%. Possible 10+ seats. It seems Scottish secession fearers/Hard Brexit lovers are bouncing over to the Tories.


----------



## Corax (Apr 24, 2017)

This morning's Telegraph piece on Corbyn appears to have been written with a rusty hacksaw.


> I have made clear my views on nuclear weapons. I have made clear that there would be no first use of it. I have made clear that any use of nuclear weapons is a disaster for the whole world.


Outrageous.  He's clearly an ISIS sleeper agent.  

It's weird.  I was under the impression that ensuring that no one made "first use" of nuclear weapons was kinda central to the whole MAD doctrine.

ETA: By the by - that article contains an interactive poll currently showing 20% voting intentions with Labour - which seems surprisingly high for something on the Telegraph site.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 24, 2017)

Corax said:


> This morning's Telegraph piece on Corbyn appears to have been written with a rusty hacksaw.
> 
> Outrageous.  He's clearly an ISIS sleeper agent.
> 
> It's weird.  I was under the impression that ensuring that no one made "first use" of nuclear weapons was kinda central to the whole MAD doctrine.



"Crazy, Out-of-Touch Old Man Rejects Idea of Starting Nuclear War"


----------



## William of Walworth (Apr 24, 2017)

The way I'm feeling about prospects at the moment, if Labour lose fewer than 30 seats that would be a relief.


----------



## bimble (Apr 24, 2017)




----------



## billy_bob (Apr 24, 2017)

bimble said:


> View attachment 105123



And apparently Farron has refused to say whether he thinks fingering fish is a sin or not.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> And apparently Farron has refused to say whether he thinks fingering fish is a sin or not.



The word of cod.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 24, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> The word of cod.



This is neither the time nor the plaice to start that.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 24, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Pass the sick bag.
> 
> Consider voting Tory or Lib Dems over Brexit, Tony Blair says



Labour members were expelled for a lot lot less last summer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Labour members were expelled for a lot lot less last summer.


that was then...


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Labour members were expelled for a lot lot less last summer.



Is Blair still a member*, even? Corbyn should definitely expel him if so, just for the lolz.

*of the Labour Party, I mean


----------



## not a trot (Apr 24, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> The way I'm feeling about prospects at the moment, if Labour lose fewer than 30 seats that would be a relief.



They shouldn't be losing any fucking seats. Losing 30 will probably keep Corbyn as leader.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

billy_bob said:


> Is Blair still a member*, even? Corbyn should definitely expel him if so, just for the lolz.
> 
> *of the Labour Party, I mean


if he isn't he should be remade a member and expelled immediately


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 24, 2017)

Corax said:


> This morning's Telegraph piece on Corbyn appears to have been written with a rusty hacksaw.
> 
> Outrageous.  He's clearly an ISIS sleeper agent.
> 
> ...


The US very deliberately maintained ambiguity and never ruled out first use of nukes. The idea back in the Cold war was for instance to stop a Soviet tank Army charging through the Fulda Gap they might need to nuke it. Trouble is when they war gamed this sort of tactical move it tended to escalate out of control to a city killing ICBM exchange. 

For the past couple of years Russian doctrine explicitly resorts to the use of tactical nukes very quickly. It's in the hands of battlefield commanders. In a recent exercise one Russian commander opted to theoretically nuke Warsaw as things went pear shaped for him. 

This stuff is once more real enough and we do have a complete twit in the Whitehouse and Europe simmering with nationalist nutters. Meanwhile we still seem to be stumbling along in a cosy noughties environment where the puny likes of IS are what scares the public.

So JC has a point, a lifelong moral position and perhaps one with few political costs. I don't think anyone thought he was going to opt for ordering nuclear genocide under any circumstances. Might be worth considering London having categorically ruled out retaliation differs from Warsaw in a Russia-US nuclear chess game only in being further away from Russian missiles.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 24, 2017)

not a trot said:


> They shouldn't be losing any fucking seats. Losing 30 will probably keep Corbyn as leader.



Elsewhere, I have read opinions that suggest that it would be better, on the whole, for Labour to suffer a humiliating defeat so that Corbyn is forced to resign, all non-moderate MPs are placed back on the back benches and the leadership process becomes an internal PLP matter in order to ensure that no other non-moderate leader can be elected. the consequent drop in membership after such disenfranchisement would seem to be, not only acceptable, but in fact desirable. The consequences of an increased majority for the Tory party with the inevitable break-up of the NHS and so on, was not given any importance at all.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Elsewhere, I have read opinions...



Conversely, i have read, and _heard_ opinions that it would be best if Labour were to suffer a catastrophic, lose-80-seats defeat and start a complete rebuild with only the Corbynite left remaining while everyone else fucks off elsewhere.

Being out of contention for a GE win for another decade or so was considered par for the course.

The LP is infested with fuck-wittery from top to bottom and from left to right - it would be most unwise to believe that either end held a monopoly of wisdom and wit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> The LP is infested with fuck-wittery


a better tagline than 'unfettered ambition'


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Elsewhere, I have read opinions


good for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> But if i had my British vote i would never ever vote anything but Labour.


i was in the supermarket the other night and there was a woman in front of me in the queue who was vocally expressing exactly the same opinion, that she would never cast a ballot in favour of any party but labour. then she dropped the beer she was queuing with and things got a bit messy.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 24, 2017)

Talking of fuckwittery within the labour party; this takes some beating.

https://capx.co/where-does-corbyn-leave-centre-left-voters/



> positively requires that Corbyn suffer crushing humiliation. I take no pleasure in hoping that he does



But this manages it

Election 2017: what should you do if you support Labour but can't stand Jeremy Corbyn?



> In the most serious possible way, it is morally intolerable to imagine Corbyn as Prime Minister.



And there is plenty more where those came from. In case you were wondering.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 24, 2017)

Ditum has been at it for ages with 'Labour must have a women leader, even if its a Kendall, or they're misogynist' and anti-Corbyn/pro-moderate leanings.


----------



## billy_bob (Apr 24, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Elsewhere, I have read opinions that suggest that it would be better, on the whole, for Labour to suffer a humiliating defeat so that Corbyn is forced to resign, all non-moderate MPs are placed back on the back benches and the leadership process becomes an internal PLP matter in order to ensure that no other non-moderate leader can be elected ...





kebabking said:


> Conversely, i have read, and _heard_ opinions that it would be best if Labour were to suffer a catastrophic, lose-80-seats defeat and start a complete rebuild with only the Corbynite left remaining while everyone else fucks off elsewhere ...



I've said something along these lines, maybe. I don't know what the actual result would be, whether a complete rout might lead to any eventual successful rebuilding on either wing of the party, or outside it if it couldn't survive as the current entity. But an OK-ish result is just going to allow them to carry on as they are, terminally dysfunctional.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if he isn't he should be remade a member and expelled immediately



I don't think Corbyn would lose many votes if he backdated the expulsion to 1975 and promised to put Blair on trial for war crimes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> I don't think Corbyn would lose many votes if he backdated the expulsion to 1975 and promised to put Blair on trial for war crimes.


if he said he'd take a leaf from the taliban and execute blair in wembley stadium, tickets would sell like hot cakes.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Apr 24, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> On Slugger Signs of dramatic Tory revival causes new headache for Sturgeon’s Indyref 2 strategy
> 
> Another dismal sign for Labour. Tory support up 18% in Scotland. Back to the days of Grocer Ted at 33%. Possible 10+ seats. It seems Scottish secession fearers/Hard Brexit lovers are bouncing over to the Tories.



This is why IndyRef2 will be interesting and a different beast from last time. I think some assume it'll be the same people voting the same way, maybe even with a surge in SNP support when the Tories get back in. But there are Yessers who voted for Brexit, and Noers who voted to remain, and since the theme of our times seems to be that Brexit is the be all and end all of politics these days there's going to be some swapping of sides. How much might be guessed by exactly how large the Tory swing at the GE is.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 24, 2017)

I don't think I can cope with all this. Last time I was on tenterhooks all night only, after a few hours sleep, to wake up to Dismal Ed Miliband capitulate at 5am. Fuck everything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I don't think I can cope with all this. Last time I was on tenterhooks all night only, after a few hours sleep, to wake up to Dismal Ed Miliband capitulate at 5am. Fuck everything.


Be glad you didn't wake up next to him, that would be worse


----------



## Sprocket. (Apr 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Be glad you didn't wake up next to him, that would be worse



With Ed's poor adenoids I don't think you would much sleep anyway!
Mrs. S. was sat about ten yards from him and as the national result became apparent she swore he had a fleeting look of relief on his face.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> I don't think I can cope with all this. Last time I was on tenterhooks all night only, after a few hours sleep, to wake up to Dismal Ed Miliband capitulate at 5am. Fuck everything.


I don't think you have to worry too much about being on tenterhooks this time, much as I'd love to be surprised.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 24, 2017)

8115 said:


> I don't think you have to worry too much about being on tenterhooks this time, much as I'd love to be surprised.


It's more the awful creeping awareness of the reality, however expected. At least, for the moment, there's a possibility however improbable.


----------



## 8115 (Apr 24, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> It's more the awful creeping awareness of the reality, however expected. At least, for the moment, there's a possibility however improbable.


I'm just hoping Labour break the 200 seat barrier, and there's no Lib dem comeback. May knows what she's doing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 24, 2017)

8115 said:


> I'm just hoping Labour break the 200 seat barrier, and there's no Lib dem comeback. May knows what she's doing.


We'll see if they break the 20 seat barrier first


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Apr 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> ComRes at 8.50pm on Saturday:
> 
> Westminster voting intention:
> 
> ...


Probably a good time to remind ourselves that opinion polls tend to ask around 1,000 people their voting intention - then extrapolate the result to a profile of 25-30 million UK adults. According to a statistical analyst friend of mine, any movement in voting intention of less than 7% is not statistically significant. I'm not saying the polls are total bollocks, just that minor movements of a few per cent either way may not be indicative of...well...anything really.


----------



## Corax (Apr 24, 2017)

I'm hoping for an SNP Westminster majority.

Might as well.  It's as likely to happen as anything else other than a furthering of May's worrying autocracy.


----------



## gosub (Apr 24, 2017)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Probably a good time to remind ourselves that opinion polls tend to ask around 1,000 people their voting intention - then extrapolate the result to a profile of 25-30 million UK adults. According to a statistical analyst friend of mine, any movement in voting intention of less than 7% is not statistically significant. I'm not saying the polls are total bollocks, just that minor movements of a few per cent either way may not be indicative of...well...anything really.



Oh god, In six weeks, my facebook feed is going to be full of shellshocked wailing again


----------



## Poi E (Apr 25, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> On Slugger Signs of dramatic Tory revival causes new headache for Sturgeon’s Indyref 2 strategy
> 
> Another dismal sign for Labour. Tory support up 18% in Scotland. Back to the days of Grocer Ted at 33%. Possible 10+ seats. It seems Scottish secession fearers/Hard Brexit lovers are bouncing over to the Tories.



45 out of 59 Scottish seats would still be an outstanding lead to the SNP. The extraordinary result in 2015 was from a pretty unique set of circumstances. Still, as this is an election on independence, the vote tallies will be interesting.


----------



## kebabking (Apr 25, 2017)

gosub said:


> Oh god, In six weeks, my facebook feed is going to be full of shellshocked wailing again



I'm wondering what sized bet will be appropriate on the probability that the first word posted on U75 after the exit poll has been released will be 'blairites...'


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 25, 2017)

On Slugger Labour facing real risk of wipeout as their polling slump continues


> ...
> If Labour defy the pollsters and only lose seats in the red region of the chart, then they will still have in excess of 200 MPs in the House of Commons. However, should the hitherto unthinkable happen and the Conservatives sweep every single seat in all four coloured areas of the map, then Labour would be left with 49 seats.
> 
> This would be worse than even their nadir in the 1931 General Election, when they won 52 seats. The General Election of December 1910 would be the last time Labour had a smaller representation in the Commons, when they won 42 seats and came fourth behind John Redmond’s Irish Parliamentary Party. Under this scenario the largest opposition party would be the SNP.
> ...


Such a prediction would have unimaginable a few years ago. Pollsters probably getting over excited.

The strange thing in the UK is you really can't call it a rejection of the establishment as the folk benefitting appear to be the Tories just gone a bit Kipper and promising once again essentially Thatcherism refried until really crispy. This is so out of step with France flirting with another collapse of The Republic. It's more like Trump's faux revolt into a land of nostalgia that we had in the US. That change would be a painless retreat into mythically better times located somewhere in the 50s. Both have been described as only being made possible by a smug assumption in the essential robustness of institutions. 

Trump's currently a bit of a damp squib because he basically a crappy Estate Agent whose hired too many clueless far right hacks bound up in a well codified constitution. The Tories are very different. The buggers can be a scarily effective when it comes to wrecking things. This is the party that won a slim majority after implementing ludicrous squash the poor austerity policies sustaining Britain's longest recession apparently without being faulted by gullible voters. St Maggie managed to rip up much of the post-48 Social Contract, lay waste to the British industrial base and gutted organised labour. She was more often in a minority government facilitated by years of catty Labour divisions. They ran the country to exhaustion with some pretty dumb ideas. What does seem probable is May will be empowered and herd British neoliberalism towards something more experimental and far less conservative.


----------



## Yossarian (Apr 25, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I'm wondering what sized bet will be appropriate on the probability that the first word posted on U75 after the exit poll has been released will be 'blairites...'



Fuck - 2-1
Shit - 2-1
Cunt - 3-1
Fuck, shit, and cunt  in same sentence - 8-1
Blairites - 50-1
Rejoice - 1,000-1


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 25, 2017)

This situation of Tory mp's potentially facing Her Majesty's Pleasure (as if), if they get re elected what's to stop the police continuing their investigations if so minded.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I'm wondering what sized bet will be appropriate on the probability that the first word posted on U75 after the exit poll has been released will be 'blairites...'



Possibly the same probability as Luke Akehurst's twitter account reading something to the tune of "Thank God he lost, now let's get him out". Any possible self-congratulations on having succesfully undermined him will not mean they can be held partly responsible for a Tory vicotory: At any mention of which all good moderates will bleat "there you go again blaming Blairites". 

Oh, Luke basically wrote in Labout "grass-roots" List that it's all the members fault we they didn't vote "moderates" in. 

Luke Akehurst: This election is a fight for the survival of the Labour Party | LabourList


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I'm wondering what sized bet will be appropriate on the probability that the first word posted on U75 after the exit poll has been released will be 'blairites...'


I see William Hill offering double carpet on bugger


----------



## sleaterkinney (Apr 25, 2017)

CrabbedOne said:


> The strange thing in the UK is you really can't call it a rejection of the establishment as the folk benefitting appear to be the Tories just gone a bit Kipper and promising once again essentially Thatcherism refried until really crispy. This is so out of step with France flirting with another collapse of The Republic. It's more like Trump's faux revolt into a land of nostalgia that we had in the US. That change would be a painless retreat into mythically better times located somewhere in the 50s. Both have been described as only being made possible by a smug assumption in the essential robustness of institutions.


But what are Labour offering?. Refried 80s mililtancy?. Diane Abbot in charge of home security?.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)

sleaterkinney said:


> But what are Labour offering?


Million new homes in five years, with at least half a million council homes
End health service privatisation 
Bring Britain’s railways into public ownership
End zero hours contract
End tuition fees for university
End tax loopholes for the uber-rich and corporations


----------



## bi0boy (Apr 25, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Million new homes in five years



That is a current government target, they're a bit behind as it's hard to achieve. However it's reckoned more like 1.8 million homes are needed over 5 years to actually stop house prices rising faster than inflation. Anyway I'm sure Corbyn has though all this through carefully.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)

And the* half a million council houses* is also Tory policy?


----------



## CrabbedOne (Apr 25, 2017)

sleaterkinney said:


> But what are Labour offering?. Refried 80s mililtancy?. Diane Abbot in charge of home security?.


Yes, some immovable grey old git who does seem eager to relive being in a divided opposition in the 80s while the Tories merrily lay waste to his poorer constituents, sell the country out to China and promote the top deciles interests. Or Tony Blair/similar deluded they can make a 90s Cool Britannia comeback. All off into the wilderness tearing at each others throats. Makes collapsed Stormont almost seem functional.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> That is a current government target, they're a bit behind as it's hard to achieve.



It would be a lot easier to achieve if half the house of commons weren't personally profiting from rising house prices.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)

Not supporting Labour cos Corbyn never win--->He lost cos he couldn't get support.


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> It would be a lot easier to achieve if half the house of commons weren't personally profiting from rising house prices.



And the fact that 128 of the Tory MPs are landlords.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> And the fact that 128 of the Tory MPs are landlords.



Surprised it's so few tbh. Among them though you've got the likes of Peter Benyon who owns half the east end.


----------



## Corax (Apr 25, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> That is a current government target, they're a bit behind as it's hard to achieve.


They could start by charging absentee landlords tax on the development land they're just sitting on, waiting for it to increase in value so they can flip it without ever picking up a shovel.  But most of those developers are their mates and/or party donors, so... nah.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> And the fact that 128 of the Tory MPs are landlords.


how many labour mps are landlords?

e2a: ah: i see - 50


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 25, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> This situation of Tory mp's potentially facing Her Majesty's Pleasure (as if), if they get re elected what's to stop the police continuing their investigations if so minded.



I'm sure May is happy to throw a few MPs under the bus provided she's got enough left. At this point it doesn't even look like proof of a criminal conspiracy and a stolen election could dent the tories' fortunes.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 25, 2017)

I doubt the police will do anything anyway. Who's naive enough to think they or the CPS will do anything? Overspending on an election probably doesn't register on most people's radar


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> Overspending on an election probably doesn't register on most people's radar


Yeah, I have a feeling that no-one really gives a shit about election expenses.


----------



## gosub (Apr 25, 2017)

Corax said:


> They could start by charging absentee landlords tax on the development land they're just sitting on, waiting for it to increase in value so they can flip it without ever picking up a shovel.  But most of those developers are their mates and/or party donors, so... nah.



Interesting read


----------



## Wilf (Apr 25, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> And the fact that 128 of the Tory MPs are landlords.


Despite the general shitness of the guardian, that's a nice piece of research, the sort of gem they do produce from time to time.

One thing I wondered though was whether these figures include all the 2nd home/flipping stuff?  In some cases mps were renting out their 2nd property. Can't see anywhere in that story to click through to the details.

edit: not sure why, maybe because the story is a year old.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Apr 25, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> How is voting for the Labour shits that abstained on the Disability Bill, voted for the Iraq War, attempted to block inquiries into the Iraq war, voted against arms sanctions to Saudi Arabia, oppose Corbyn, argue against nationalisation, attack working class communities, stay silent when labour councils (attempt to) make dodgy deals with private enterprise or cut services etc saying 'fuck you' to the them.
> 
> I might just be able to vote Labour if I was in a constituency where the Labour candidate had opposed some of those things but I'm not, and neither are all but a handful of people.



I hear where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that you're not seeing the wood for the trees. This election is not about the individual candidates, its about the leadership of Corbyn vs the leadership of May. A Labour loss (the likely outcome admittedly) will be seen overwhelmingly as the failure of the Corbyn leadership (not of the anti-Corbyn MPs) and this in turn will be seen as a failure of socialist/social democratic ideas and the incontrovertible reality of neo-liberalism/TINA.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Despite the general shitness of the guardian, that's a nice piece of research, the sort of gem they do produce from time to time.


pity you have to wade kneedeep in shit and fatbergs to find the occasional jewel


----------



## mikey mikey (Apr 25, 2017)




----------



## Wilf (Apr 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Despite the general shitness of the guardian, that's a nice piece of research, the sort of gem they do produce from time to time.
> 
> One thing I wondered though was whether these figures include all the 2nd home/flipping stuff?  In some cases mps were renting out their 2nd property. Can't see anywhere in that story to click through to the details.
> 
> edit: not sure why, maybe because the story is a year old.


Spreadsheet downloadable on this page (from 2015):

Is your MP a landlord? There's a 1 in 5 chance

Edit: partial, only has 139 of the fuckers.


----------



## teqniq (Apr 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Yeah, I have a feeling that no-one really gives a shit about election expenses.


Lots of people I know are sharing info about it on fb. Now I know that 'lots of people I know' could easily mean 'lots of like-minded people' but still I think to say that no-one gives a shit is untrue.


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

No-one who might vote tory cares. And hardly anyone else either.


----------



## Who PhD (Apr 25, 2017)

From twitter


----------



## Wilf (Apr 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Spreadsheet downloadable on this page (from 2015):
> 
> Is your MP a landlord? There's a 1 in 5 chance
> 
> Edit: partial, only has 139 of the fuckers.


That reminds me that poor old Michael Meacher had been reduced to just owning 4 spare houses at the time of his death. Poor sod. 

He and his wife used to have 'at least 9' properties after, naturally, having discussions with Elizabeth Filkin about what he needs to declare. The real figure was 12.
The many homes of Michael Meacher


----------



## agricola (Apr 25, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that you're not seeing the wood for the trees. This election is not about the individual candidates, its about the leadership of Corbyn vs the leadership of May. A Labour loss (the likely outcome admittedly) will be seen overwhelmingly as the failure of the Corbyn leadership (not of the anti-Corbyn MPs) and this in turn will be seen as a failure of socialist/social democratic ideas and the incontrovertible reality of neo-liberalism/TINA.



That is no doubt how it will be spun, but the current lot of anti-Corbynites within Labour aren't good enough to plausibly pull it off.  The reality of what they have done, and are doing, is blatant - and much more likely to kill the party off than Corbyn's leadership is.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Apr 25, 2017)

The political classes have been pushing the boundaries as to what is acceptable for years :

fucking pigs ? don't bother responding, it will go away
rent boys and coke ?  Don't bother responding, it will go away
milking yer expenses and committing fraud by claiming housing costs and employing your family ? admit nothing
Hiding assets in tax efficient overseas vehicles? blah blah blah

short of stabbing Dennis Skinner to death with an ivory handled letter opener at PM questions, they know they just have to keep their heads down and it will blow over. The election expenses will at worst be dismissed as an administrative error, an oversight and *lessons have been learned*. Thee know they are virtually untouchable

The sheer arrogance and unwillingness of the public and press to take these fucks to task makes me sick


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I'm wondering what sized bet will be appropriate on the probability that the first word posted on U75 after the exit poll has been released will be 'blairites...'



You think all the back stabbing by these unreconstructed politicians and their friends in the media haven't had any effect?

since you left the LP you seem to have got more incoherent, bitter, etc.


----------



## stethoscope (Apr 25, 2017)

agricola said:


> That is no doubt how it will be spun, but the current lot of anti-Corbynites within Labour aren't good enough to plausibly pull it off.  The reality of what they have done, and are doing, is blatant - and much more likely to kill the party off than Corbyn's leadership is.



To Corbyn's credit, he looks like he's pretty up for it - but, he's looking rather alone in it already and seemingly doing all the rallies and 'talking to the public' on his own so far. A lot of the PLP seem to be utterly absent at the present moment, and I have the feeling they've placed losing to get rid of Corbyn over wanting to fight and win a general election.


----------



## treelover (Apr 25, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that you're not seeing the wood for the trees. This election is not about the individual candidates, its about the leadership of Corbyn vs the leadership of May. A Labour loss (the likely outcome admittedly) will be seen overwhelmingly as the failure of the Corbyn leadership (not of the anti-Corbyn MPs) and this in turn will be seen as a failure of socialist/social democratic ideas and the incontrovertible reality of neo-liberalism/TINA.



M.P's like Jess Philips have acknowledged the popularity of Corbyns new policies, though of course this could Stalin like disappear from the public record after the fall.*

*though the net is always there..


----------



## chilango (Apr 25, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> To Corbyn's credit, he looks like he's pretty up for it - but, he's looking rather alone in it already and seemingly doing all the rallies and 'talking to the public' on his own so far. A lot of the PLP seem to be utterly absent at the present moment, and I have the feeling they've placed losing to get rid of Corbyn over wanting to fight and win a general election.



That's exactly what they've done. 

What sort of ruins they'll inherit is another question though...


----------



## agricola (Apr 25, 2017)

That Open Britain campaign to kick out Brexiteers has got off to a great start, then.


----------



## Wilf (Apr 25, 2017)

not-bono-ever said:


> The political classes have been pushing the boundaries as to what is acceptable for years :
> 
> fucking pigs ? don't bother responding, it will go away
> rent boys and coke ?  Don't bother responding, it will go away
> ...


There's certainly a different feel to the present time, compared to the way stories about 'sleaze' got traction in the 90s (resulting in Martin Bell kicking that twat Hamilton out in tatton).  Then there was the MPs expenses stuff where people were generally angry - a 'moment'.  Not so much a moment about the bigger picture of corruption and power, but nonetheless something that made the fuckers _uncomfortable_. But yes, there's not even that now.  The general feeling of abandonment by the politicians is still there, but the Tories answer to that is sticking to Brexit come what may - a belief that somehow restores the bond with the people.  It doesn't but as you say, there's precious little pressure on them otherwise. Amid the biggest disruption to take place in political life for decades, in the sense of brexit, politicians are _comfortable_. As are the bankers.


----------



## campanula (Apr 25, 2017)

Yossarian said:


> Fuck, shit, and cunt  in same sentence - 8-1



Those look like astonishingly long odds - this being Urban, I would only be offering evens on all three being used in a very short 4 word sentence...with the caveat of allowing 'ing' to be added.


----------



## redsquirrel (Apr 25, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> I hear where you're coming from, but I can't help but think that you're not seeing the wood for the trees. This election is not about the individual candidates, its about the leadership of Corbyn vs the leadership of May.


This simply isn't true as much as the Tories, and some on the left, want to make it. I can't vote for Corbyn, I can't vote for policies he supports. I have to vote for someone who abstained on the Welfare Bill, supported the coup against Corbyn, supported Cooper for leadership etc, i.e. is a neo-liberal prick. Even if, by a miracle, Labour won this scumbag wouldn't stand up for social democracy, she would just backstab Corbyn and co at the first opportunity.



Jeff Robinson said:


> A Labour loss (the likely outcome admittedly) will be seen overwhelmingly as the failure of the Corbyn leadership (not of the anti-Corbyn MPs) and this in turn will be seen as a failure of socialist/social democratic ideas and the incontrovertible reality of neo-liberalism/TINA.


Of course it will be spun that way, but so what? First, however, well or badly Labour do the PLP will attack social democratic ideas and try to move the party back rightwards. Second, this has the problem of making the Labour Party the focus, I'm not interested in the LP I'm interested in labour.  Socialism, or even social democracy, isn't the preserve of the LP, indeed rather the opposite, it's precisely because the LP are opposed to such politics that I won't support them.


----------



## magneze (Apr 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> No-one who might vote tory cares. And hardly anyone else either.


Is it that people don't care, or is it the assumption that if there's something wrong that the authorities will do something about it. The latter might not be true, but might be the assumption..


----------



## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

magneze said:


> Is it that people don't care, or is it the assumption that if there's something wrong that the authorities will do something about it. The latter might not be true, but might be the assumption..


I don't think they care. People are pretty cynical about politicians and the things they'll do, and I reckon this is low down on the list of awful things they'll put up with.

No-one thinks they make decisions on who to vote for on anything less than an informed basis, so why would they think overspending on campaigning expenses would make a significant difference to how anyone votes? It's not like it's proper election fraud.


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## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

also, I'm sure everyone's noticed that the other parties aren't hammering this for all it's worth - which means they likely have similar shit going on that they don't want looking at.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 25, 2017)

theres a level of political cynicism here (by which I mean the UK) that seems well entrenched. Didn't Iceland sack off their whole government over the panama papers reveals? here it was *blink* yeah well we knew that anyway and now over to Livingstone for talk about hitler


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## mojo pixy (Apr 25, 2017)

do we in the UK even know how to do that, just get rid of the whole gov't, force them to give up office or whatever and re-elect the whole lot? Is there a way that doesn't involve mass murder?


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## not-bono-ever (Apr 25, 2017)

Most Tories I have known have been selfish cunts - they likely look up to someone who skims and manipulates the system for personal enrichment, as its something they would do themselves given the opportunity.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 25, 2017)

Cheesypoof said:


> i worry about this election so much....im an Irish person but I used to live in England and ADORE the place. Its my second home, and most of my best friends are there. I have my pension there and will end up in England. I even speak with a slightly British accent - if you want to hear who i talk like, go and listen to Ruth Negga on youtube. we speak the same, although im skankier
> 
> i feel so weird about this election cos Mrs May seems...how do i put this, _formidable?_ But if i had my British vote i would never ever vote anything but Labour.



"Formidable"?  She's about as substantial as a blancmange! She's never made a policy decision that she didn't want to do a u-turn on if public opinion went against her!  The only thing she's got going for her with certain voters, is that she looks totally depraved!


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## Artaxerxes (Apr 25, 2017)

Wilf said:


> There's certainly a different feel to the present time, compared to the way stories about 'sleaze' got traction in the 90s (resulting in Martin Bell kicking that twat Hamilton out in tatton).  Then there was the MPs expenses stuff where people were generally angry - a 'moment'.  Not so much a moment about the bigger picture of corruption and power, but nonetheless something that made the fuckers _uncomfortable_. But yes, there's not even that now.  The general feeling of abandonment by the politicians is still there, but the Tories answer to that is sticking to Brexit come what may - a belief that somehow restores the bond with the people.  It doesn't but as you say, there's precious little pressure on them otherwise. Amid the biggest disruption to take place in political life for decades, in the sense of brexit, politicians are _comfortable_. As are the bankers.




It strikes me in the way that something like The Cook Report used to be on mainstream TV at a decent time, these days the criminals aren't ashamed and you hear nothing but defensiveness towards greedy bastards, crooks and liars and it seems to spill over to all walks of life. 

"oh yeah, ha the PM's a tax dodging shit, oh well what a player I'd do the same!" sort of thing.


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## chilango (Apr 25, 2017)

Early anecdata coming in suggests the following in my neck of the woods:

Corbyn taking a hammering, but not his policies. Mostly being regarded as not strong enough. Probably licked ( Ha!  I meant "policies" but I'll leave that in)  generally going down well.

Surprising lack of support for the Conservatives and a lack of enthusiasm even amongst those supporting them.

Tiny Lib Dem bounce amongst "remain" Tories

Though conversely just overheard a conversation between the bus driver and an IT worker where the Lib Dems were condemned as "liars" and "finished" and feelings that the Greens will do well.


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## Old Spark (Apr 25, 2017)

The chicken has gone to seed.


Mirror Chicken Fattened Up for Election Slaughter - Guido Fawkes


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## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

Can you say wtf the link is about? Especially if you're linking to Guido?


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## gosub (Apr 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> Can you say wtf the link is about? Especially if you're linking to Guido?



Coz somebody doesn't do something media have them followed around by someone dressed as a chicken.  The person the Mirror currently has following May is of a slightly larger frame than a previous person tasked with the job.


Election not actually started yet,and already they are just entertaining themselves.


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## Old Spark (Apr 25, 2017)

Kim jong may goes to wales for ten minutes.

Kim Jong-May received with rapture and adulation in Bridgend


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## William of Walworth (Apr 25, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Formidable"?  She's about as substantial as a blancmange! She's never made a policy decision that she didn't want to do a u-turn on if public opinion went against her!  The only thing she's got going for her with certain voters, *is that she looks totally depraved!*



It's not that surely?
At a guess I'd speculate that that a fair number (OK far too bloody many  ) voters have convinced themselves  (atm anyway) that :

1.  'Lets just get on with it' is the best approach to finishing off Brexit
2.  May's  'the best person for that job' -- even if they don't like her, and even if they think she looks mad, they like Corbyn far less.


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## Raheem (Apr 25, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> It's not that surely?
> At a guess I'd speculate that that a fair number (OK far too bloody many  ) voters have convinced themselves  (atm anyway) that :
> 
> 1.  'Lets just get on with it' is the best approach to finishing off Brexit
> 2.  May's  'the best person for that job' -- even if they don't like her, and even if they think she looks mad, they like Corbyn far less.



Suspect that for a fair few the thinking isn't even that involved. There is a chunk of the electorate, straddling the Brexit divide, who have near-complete tunnel vision over Brexit, so that it has become their whole political identity. And so, they will vote for the Tories as the Brexit party or the Lib Dems as the anti-Brexit party. Nothing will sway them, and it doesn't matter to them if it's irrational (I think a lot of them fully realise that it is) or if it means they're voting for things they don't believe in into the bargain.


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## William of Walworth (Apr 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Suspect that for a fair few the thinking isn't even that involved. There is a chunk of the electorate, straddling the Brexit divide, who have near-complete tunnel vision over Brexit, so that it has become their whole political identity. And so, they will vote for the Tories as the Brexit party or the Lib Dems as the anti-Brexit party. Nothing will sway them, and it doesn't matter to them if it's irrational (I think a lot of them fully realise that it is) or if it means they're voting for things they don't believe in into the bargain.




I think also, that there's a lot more soft remainers and aren't all that arsed Brexiters who just agree with the 'getting on with it' stuff re Brexit. Not that this contradicts your main point all that much.


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## killer b (Apr 25, 2017)

Raheem said:


> And so, they will vote for... the Lib Dems as the anti-Brexit party.


these people don't seem to be showing up on the polls yet.


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## Raheem (Apr 25, 2017)

killer b said:


> these people don't seem to be showing up on the polls yet.



I'm pretty certain they exist. How many of them there are I don't know, but I think it would only be in polling following the election being called that we should be expecting to see them, of which we haven't had much yet.


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## Raheem (Apr 25, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> I think also, that there's a lot more soft remainers and aren't all that arsed Brexiters who just agree with the 'getting on with it' stuff re Brexit. Not that this contradicts your main point all that much.



Yes I agree that that's in the mix. It's no less misguided, though. It's just tunnel-vision in a slightly different direction.  As if there's a risk of not getting on with it.


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## Old Spark (Apr 25, 2017)

May mixes up terrorism and tourism according to the standard.

Prime Minister Theresa May wants UK to lead world in 'preventing tourism' in embarrassing campaign trail gaffe


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## teqniq (Apr 25, 2017)




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## chilango (Apr 26, 2017)

I can only think of two people I know who are saying that Brexit will be an explicit reason for how they'll vote. 

They're both talking of voting for parties they'd probably have voted for anyway....


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## Pickman's model (Apr 26, 2017)

chilango said:


> I can only think of two people I know who are saying that Brexit will be an explicit reason for how they'll vote.
> 
> They're both talking of voting for parties they'd probably have voted for anyway....


An explicit reason  (18)


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## treelover (Apr 26, 2017)

> * How can Labour survive this Tory tidal wave? Reach for the sandbags *
> 
> Polly Toynbee
> Tactical voting and progressive alliances are the only way to save Labour MPs. Otherwise they will disappear from swaths of the country
> ...



Polly surpasses herself here, while Labour are in trouble, this is her usual pre-Election hysteria, i also don't think Mattison's focus groups of Britain Thinks, all see the LP as "the party of immigrants and benefit claimants."


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## chilango (Apr 26, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> An explicit reason  (18)



There may be strong threat and horror.
There may be strong language.
There may be racist, homophobic or other discriminatory themes and language.


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## teqniq (Apr 26, 2017)

More than half of Brit want to see Theresa May in live TV debates

And so she bloody well should. This however is her weak spot and it's been calculated by the Tories that it will do their chances more harm than good to have her in a face to face debate. I am now wondering though if this refusal to participate is a double-edged sword that will end up harming them either way. Lot of wishful thinking going on there, I know.


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## billy_bob (Apr 26, 2017)

Raheem said:


> I'm pretty certain they exist. How many of them there are I don't know, but I think it would only be in polling following the election being called that we should be expecting to see them, of which we haven't had much yet.



Possible they're not having much impact on polls because the Lib Dems are currently starting from such a pathetically low base, so even a substantial increase in support isn't enough to make them register that significantly. 

Ironically, if they hadn't decided 2010 was their moment and squandered the reasonable standing they had following their opposition to Iraq and the mess of New Labour's last years, maybe this could have been their moment. I think they'll get back to 'not on the brink of extinction' but I wouldn't like to predict a much more sunny outlook for them than that.


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## billy_bob (Apr 26, 2017)

teqniq said:


> More than half of Brit want to see Theresa May in live TV debates
> 
> And so she bloody well should. This however is her weak spot and it's been calculated by the Tories that it will do their chances more harm than good to have her in a face to face debate. I am now wondering though if this refusal to participate is a double-edged sword that will end up harming them either way. Lot of wishful thinking going on there, I know.



Although May and Cameron are very different in style, they're both similarly much more comfortable working to a plan than improvising on the back foot. But Cameron didn't suffer for it in 2015 and I doubt May will now.


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## Who PhD (Apr 26, 2017)

It's a clip uploaded by a Galloway fan, but the guy he's talking to 'Damian in Brighton', whoever he is, makes some interesting and perhaps hopeful observations about the alleged success of the Tories:

Tories defeated in 7/10 parliamentary by elections since 2015.
Tory majority in that election was/is narrow (we know this much).
Tories couldn't win a majority in 2010.
Defeated in every mayoral contest.
Lost over 50 council seats (whether or not that's a big deal, I don't know).
Lost 23,000 votes in Richmond.
Vote didn't change in Stoke.

Or does this mean absolutely bugger all?


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## agricola (Apr 26, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> May mixes up terrorism and tourism according to the standard.
> 
> Prime Minister Theresa May wants UK to lead world in 'preventing tourism' in embarrassing campaign trail gaffe



The irony is of course what with the economic consequences of Brexit, the continuing rise of zero-hours and the gig economy, and continuing what is seven years of real terms cuts in wages across the public sector, she really is much more likely to prevent tourism than terrorism.


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## brogdale (Apr 26, 2017)

Who PhD said:


> It's a clip uploaded by a Galloway fan, but the guy he's talking to 'Damian in Brighton', whoever he is, makes some interesting and perhaps hopeful observations about the alleged success of the Tories:
> 
> Tories defeated in 7/10 parliamentary by elections since 2015.
> Tory majority in that election was/is narrow (we know this much).
> ...



Polling suggests that significant numbers of Leave (former Labour) voters have bought May's line that a vote for 'her' is a an active vote against the EU negotiators who would do the country down.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 9, 2017)

DownwardDog said:


> The Conservatives are bringing back Ser Lynton of House Crosby.


So is May going to get a refund?


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## Teaboy (Jun 9, 2017)

Idris2002 said:


> So is May going to get a refund?



Well after his team done such a sterling job on Zac Goldsmith's mayoral candidacy and now this I suspect Crosby's star may have rusted a bit.


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