# Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support



## Zabo (Jan 12, 2012)

Anybody done any in depth research into this multi-national, global corporation? I mean the politics and who knows who.

Their latest wheeze: http://www.guardian.co.uk/governmen...rds?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter

Anybody for a donation to the Tory Party Coffers? Any directorships going free?

Where are the investigative journalists when you need one?


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## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2012)

It's a french IT company 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atos


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## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2012)

wiki said:
			
		

> Atos’ Zero Email initiative comes in response to the challenges organizations face as a result of the continuing explosion in data and seeks to find a better way to communicate and collaborate. [7].
> An ongoing program was launched in early 2011 [8] using social business solutions and tools such as Office Communicator (OCS) for quick questions or by using Live Meeting to organize online meetings and sharing documents.
> Atos’ CEO has stated the company aims to eradicate all internal emails by the end of 2013. This has led to a debate within the industry about how realistic and achievable such an ambition is. [9][10][11]



what utter twats.


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## yardbird (Jan 12, 2012)

Some of us have been harping on about atos for ages and I'd be very surprised if there isn't a Panorama or similar being worked on right now.


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## Zabo (Jan 12, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Some of us have been harping on about atos for ages and I'd be very surprised if there isn't a Panorama or similar being worked on right now.



I hope so Yardbird. I wonder who to contact to check it out? What about C4 _Dispatches_?


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## Zabo (Jan 12, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> It's a french IT company
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atos



Not sure what your face palm is for? I haven't mentioned where it is registered. All its offshoots/partners are certainly not French. To name but one.

http://www.fortrus.com/

And then there's their dabbling in all the medical benefit assessments. Not quite IT.

http://www.atoshealthcare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=23&Itemid=294


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## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2012)

it wasn't aimed at you - but at the government thinking that getting them in charge of this stuff was a good idea ...


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## trevhagl (Jan 12, 2012)

plenty of stuff in Private Eye about the fuckers , and all of it as bad as you expect


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## Zabo (Jan 12, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> it wasn't aimed at you - but at the government thinking that getting them in charge of this stuff was a good idea ...



Cheers


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## Maurice Picarda (Jan 12, 2012)

Zabo said:


> And then there's their dabbling in all the medical benefit assessments. Not quite IT.



Well, it is. They won it because they provided the LiMA system, not because they are better than anybody else at managing clinicians.


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## smokedout (Jan 12, 2012)

atos healthcare have fairly large interests in occupational health, they have a contract with the filth and are about to start on public sector workers - they are basically used to lay people off on health grounds, somewhat ironically declaring people unfit for work

they also provide consultancy on 'headcount reduction'


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## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2012)

> atos healthcare have fairly large interests in occupational health, they have a contract with the filth and are about to start on public sector workers - they are basically used to lay people off on health grounds, somewhat ironically declaring people unfit for work



fuck's sake!  

Also I'd be happy to do some research myself on this company / translation etc ... whatever may be required. they need exposed, they're an evil bunch of cunts.


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## ymu (Jan 12, 2012)

CAB have just published some new research:



> A detailed year-long study into the coalition government's controversial work capability assessments (WCAs) has revealed new evidence of widespread inaccuracies in the medical reports that help to determine whether individuals are eligible for sickness benefits.
> 
> The research, conducted by the charity Citizens Advice, identified a group of people about to embark on the process of claiming employment and support allowance (ESA), which replaces incapacity benefit, and followed them throughout the process from the summer of 2010, looking at how their claims were handled and the accuracy of the medical assessments.
> 
> ...


 


smokedout said:


> atos healthcare have fairly large interests in occupational health, they have a contract with the filth and are about to start on public sector workers - they are basically used to lay people off on health grounds, somewhat ironically declaring people unfit for work
> 
> they also provide consultancy on 'headcount reduction'


Aren't there some cases where they've declared someone too ill to work when wearing their occupational health hats, and then found the same person fit to work when they applied for ESA?


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## Fedayn (Jan 12, 2012)

ymu said:


> Aren't there some cases where they've declared someone too ill to work when wearing their occupational health hats, and then found the same person fit to work when they applied for ESA?



A former PCS rep in my now branch was given early retirement on medical grounds after the Independent Decision Maker agreed with ATOS OH report that he was too ill to continue working for the DWP and anyone else. A week and one day later he recieved a letter from my office, which dealt with his ESA claim, informing him that he had failed his WCA and was declared fit for work.


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## Athos (Jan 12, 2012)

The only difference between a bunch of cunts and an intelligent, witty, handsome, talented, sex-god: one letter - h.


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 12, 2012)

Chunts?


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## Meltingpot (Jan 13, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> Chunts?



At(h)os. 

Sorry in advance if this depresses people, but here's just one example of why ATOS and its phoney "assessments" have to be fought. You really couldn't make it up;

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...ght-first-time?commentpage=1#comment-14073931

The writer's got a good blog too;

http://gherkinette.blogspot.com/


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## WouldBe (Jan 13, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> It's a french IT company
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atos


Yet if you write to them the DWP replies. 




			
				ymu said:
			
		

> The report's conclusions are stark: of the 37 individual reports examined, 16 (43%) revealed "serious levels of inaccuracy", and a further 10 contained a "medium level of inaccuracy", a level still significant enough to have an impact on the claimants' eligibility for benefits. Only 11 were entirely accurate or had a low level of inaccuracy.


Just had all the paperwork to go to my tribunal for ESA. Almost everything is inaccurate.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2012)

Athos said:


> The only difference between a bunch of cunts and an intelligent, witty, handsome, talented, sex-god: one letter - h.


are you sure? atosh sounds like a sneeze.


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## Greebo (Jan 13, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Yet if you write to them the DWP replies.
> 
> Just had all the paperwork to go to my tribunal for ESA. Almost everything is inaccurate.


I'd like to be shocked by that, but given previous experience, I'm just ,  and .

FWIW the more obvious it is that the report etc is downright inaccurate, the better your chances of winning the appeal.  I just wish that people didn't have to take their claims as far as an appeal just to get the money they should have been getting all along.


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## treelover (Jan 13, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> fuck's sake!
> 
> Also I'd be happy to do some research myself on this company / translation etc ... whatever may be required. they need exposed, they're an evil bunch of cunts.



http://www.afteratos.com/

These are the people to get in touch with Froggie, they have had injunctions against them, brave souls..


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## treelover (Jan 13, 2012)

'CLIVE says:
 November 23, 2011 at 16:12

When i was born in 1953 i had cerebral palsy. after my ATOS assesment i was cured. HOW?'



Unbelievable, where is the Parliamentary oversight?, where is the Audit Office? where is the basic humanity?


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## yardbird (Jan 13, 2012)

The ATOS assessors could not cope with MS, I tried to explain  complete fatigue and having no idea how I would feel from day to day.


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## Zabo (Jan 13, 2012)

e-mail posted to the programme commissioning editor. Fingers crossed.

http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/channel-4-announces-innovation-in-current-affairs


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## pinkmonkey (Jan 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The ATOS assessors could not cope with MS, I tried to explain complete fatigue and having no idea how I would feel from day to day.


Yep, same with my friend who has severe auto immune disorder.  She never knows when a flare is going to happen.  Anyway she's had a shit year last year, heart attack in August (after which they took away her DLA).  She came out of hospital yesterday, she was in fora fortnight because she'd had a stroke, they discovered evidence of another six strokes since her heart attack.   All of this seems to make no difference to Atos.  If they see her on a good day, they'll pass her.


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## yardbird (Jan 13, 2012)

I'm going to be re-assessed this year and both my GP and my outreach nurse say I'm not to travel and they must come to me.
You think they'd get the drift and save the country money.


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## treelover (Jan 13, 2012)

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audit_and_monitorting_of_hcps_em
Some good people are using the FOI(which the condems are now trying to limit) to investigate ATOS and the use of Health Care Professionals


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## Zabo (Jan 13, 2012)

C4 have replied to me - very nice. I now have a name. All I have to do is present a good proposal. I'll keep you posted.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'CLIVE says:
> November 23, 2011 at 16:12
> 
> When i was born in 1953 i had cerebral palsy. after my ATOS assesment i was cured. HOW?'
> ...



You expect oversight when they barely wrote any into the contracting process, let alone making sure the actual practices are regulated?

Oversight is for when you want an efficient delivery system, not for when you want to be able to cull hundreds of thousands of people from the claimant count for IB/ESA (and, soon, DLA).


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yep, same with my friend who has severe auto immune disorder. She never knows when a flare is going to happen. Anyway she's had a shit year last year, heart attack in August (after which they took away her DLA). She came out of hospital yesterday, she was in fora fortnight because she'd had a stroke, they discovered evidence of another six strokes since her heart attack. All of this seems to make no difference to Atos. If they see her on a good day, they'll pass her.



And that is why, unethical though it is, I recommend to people that if they're on painkillers and can manage without them for a couple of days, to stop taking them (or at least minimise their intake) 2-3 days before the appointment, so that the desk-monkey gets an inkling of the pain and distress you suffer.


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## coley (Jan 13, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And that is why, unethical though it is, I recommend to people that if they're on painkillers and can manage without them for a couple of days, to stop taking them (or at least minimise their intake) 2-3 days before the appointment, so that the desk-monkey gets an inkling of the pain and distress you suffer.



Will it make a difference when they get commission for evey claimant turned down? there is a company called OLM who do a very similiar job on people recieving residential/day care services


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## yardbird (Jan 13, 2012)

To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._
_
_
That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?


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## coley (Jan 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._
> 
> That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?


Somebody who is now a lot richer than they were before the deal perhaps? or someone who is lined up for a juicy directorship?


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## Wilson (Jan 13, 2012)

Zabo said:


> Anybody done any in depth research into this multi-national, global corporation? I mean the politics and who knows who.
> 
> Their latest wheeze: http://www.guardian.co.uk/governmen...rds?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter
> 
> ...



Sorry but can you please use their correct name - its _H_atos not atos


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## equationgirl (Jan 13, 2012)

Zabo said:


> e-mail posted to the programme commissioning editor. Fingers crossed.
> 
> http://www.channel4.com/info/press/news/channel-4-announces-innovation-in-current-affairs



A Guardian journalist made the following post in some comments on a recent Guardian article about the assessments:

'I'm researching another piece about ESA and the appeals process. Do email me if you have experiences you'd like to share, or if there's information you think I should be aware of: amelia.gentleman@guardian.co.uk'
Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...ght-first-time?commentpage=1#comment-14073931


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## Bernie Gunther (Jan 13, 2012)

I find that the appallingly evil shit that Atos has been doing to disabled claimants makes a very convincing test cast when you want to convince someone that 'free enterprise' should never be allowed within a million miles of essential public services.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 14, 2012)

coley said:


> Will it make a difference when they get commission for evey claimant turned down? there is a company called OLM who do a very similiar job on people recieving residential/day care services



It minimises their ability to ignore your obvious disabilities. Claimants can only do what they can do. You can't convince someone who benefits directly from your claim being refused not to be a cunt, but you can maximise the possibility that you'll win an appeal.


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## Maurice Picarda (Jan 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> A Guardian journalist made the following post in some comments on a recent Guardian article about the assessments:
> 
> 'I'm researching another piece about ESA and the appeals process. Do email me if you have experiences you'd like to share, or if there's information you think I should be aware of: amelia.gentleman@guardian.co.uk'
> Guardian article: http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...ght-first-time?commentpage=1#comment-14073931



Gentleman is married to the member for Orpington and so is Boris Johnson's sister in law. Not that this should automatically count against her, of course.


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## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2012)

Her fathers popularisation  of _bliar_ should though.


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## trevhagl (Jan 14, 2012)

fucking great Shameless this week , first telly programme in ages that portrays the dole nazis for what they are


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## culder (Jan 23, 2012)

After 5 years on IB for mental illness, I've just been awarded the grand total of 0 points and I'm apparently fit for work.

What I'm actually fit for, at the moment, is thinking up ways of getting myself arrested in order to make a statement. Smashing their computers with a hammer springs to mind.


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## ChocolateTeapot (Jan 23, 2012)

it's a particularly nice touch that one their assessments involves picking up a pound coin with either hand isn't it? I mean it could be a paperclip, or a rubber brick or something, but no, a pound coin. You can almost hear their logic - "Aye, unfit to work, but you can grasp for money, given the chance, can't you?"


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## culder (Jan 23, 2012)

Excellent point, Choc. Interesting that we never hear about the money _they're_ grasping for, isn't it?

It's probably clear from my first post that I'm feeling very angry. Apologies in advance - this could be a very long post.

For many years now I've been regarded as worthless - by the government (of any colour), and of course the Daily Heil, Melanie Phillips and, more recently, ATOS.

First, I was stupid enough to become pregnant by rape. Then I was stupid enough to keep my child and bring her up on my own. Immediately I was a feckless single mother, a scrounger. Worthless. Next, I was stupid enough to think it might be a good idea to return to education, in the hope of improving my chances of getting a half-decent job. It didn't work. I tried vocational courses, which got me nowhere, and eventually I moved my daughter and all our belongings to another part of the country, so that I could get a degree. So now I was worthless because I was a student.

I graduated, and couldn't find work of any description. I was always rejected because I was over-qualified. I was then stupid enough to qualify as a teacher. I got 3 months' supply work, but things were so bad by then, financially, that I ended up attempting suicide.

I was now worthless because I was unemployed.

After that I got several NVQs, courtesy of the Job Centre, because that's just what your average graduate/teacher needs, isn't it? Unsurprisingly, I was feeling a bit pissed off by now.

I had two more periods of employment between then and now. First was a temp job in an Education Department, where I seemed to be the only person who knew anything about correct English. Then a couple of years later I did some work experience in a place that ran Literacy and Numeracy classes for unemployed people. I loved that, but of course it didn't last. The existing government won the election that year, and the funding dried up.

By the end of 2006 I was in no fit state to deal with this anymore. I'd spent more than half my life trying to make things better, and I'd failed. The person I signed on with was such an idiot that I went home crying every time I saw him. There was no such thing as stress. He could go out in his lunch hour and get three jobs, why couldn't I do that?

Eventually my GP signed me off on the grounds of mental health. It was about 6 months before I had my assessment, but I was found not fit for work.

Now, 5 years later, and with my mental condition worse than it was before, I am still worthless.

For the record, my daughter is now 30, and she's never claimed any benefit in her life. She is the only reason that I won't make another suicide attempt.


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## stethoscope (Jan 23, 2012)

Excellent post culder, can only express my sympathy about your experience at the hands of the cunts which sadly doesn't surprise me.

Oh, and welcome


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## Libertad (Jan 23, 2012)

Good to share culder, welcome. We *will* beat these bastards.


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you both. It's taken me some time to get myself together enough to say all that.


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## Greebo (Jan 24, 2012)

Culder IMHO you are very far from worthless.  You raised a child on your own, you've kept trying to improve your circumstances, you've shown your daughter the value of persistence.

As for the tosser who reckoned he could easily get 3 jobs in his lunchtime - if he was as employable as all that I wonder why on earth he was working in a jobcentre with so little in the way of interpersonal skills?


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## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2012)

welcome to the boards culder


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks Greebo. And that's a very good point about the tosser in the Job Centre.

I know they're not all like that - my boyfriend works for the DWP and he's disgusted with the whole thing. He went with me to my assessment, and now he's blaming himself for not helping to get my case across properly. Daft beggar!


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Thanks Frogwoman


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## treelover (Jan 24, 2012)

welcome to the boards Culder, you have done everything you could...


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## toggle (Jan 24, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks Greebo. And that's a very good point about the tosser in the Job Centre.
> 
> I know they're not all like that - my boyfriend works for the DWP and he's disgusted with the whole thing. He went with me to my assessment, and now he's blaming himself for not helping to get my case across properly. Daft beggar!



there's good uns and bad uns. just the bad uns are very good at making you feel like shit.


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Thank you all for the welcome. I should probably go to sleep now. And thanks to Toggle, too.


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## equationgirl (Jan 24, 2012)

Welcome culder, and thank you for posting your story.


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 24, 2012)

Hi

My wife has to go for her assessment on Friday. Im shitting bricks because frankly without her money we cant afford to live where we are, and we have a 13 month old toddler to think about. Anyone got any advice?

Edit: Can i go into the assessment with her?

Edit: She has an eating disorder and depression, along with other issues i wont go into here and im worried that as things are between us at the moment, and with her that if they turn her down it's going to be the straw that breaks the camels back


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

Barking
Yes you can go into the assessment with her, although do not interject. You can help translate (meaning) etc. A good idea quickly to read as much as poss.
Take a notepad and make as many notes as possible. At the end ask the "medical professional" what the exact time is, ask if it's over, check your watch and write the time in you notepad and sign it off.
A good chance they may find this a trifle intimidating.
You could politely ask for name (correct spelling and write it down) and qualifications  "before we start".
NB the other issues are probably pertinent.


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

Please note that we are assessed by a "medical professional" - this is totally meaningless.
Bring on the medical amateurs I say !!


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 24, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Barking
> Yes you can go into the assessment with her, although do not interject. You can help translate (meaning) etc. A good idea quickly to read as much as poss.
> Take a notepad and make as many notes as possible. At the end ask the "medical professional" what the exact time is, ask if it's over, check your watch and write the time in you notepad and sign it off.
> A good chance they may find this a trifle intimidating.
> ...



Thanks for that  I’m not sure my wife will want me to come in with her, and it would mean finding someone to look after our toddler but i’ll check it out. 
She does need help (and lord knows ive tried to get her to go) but as anyone will know with an eating disorder it’s a problem that sufferers don’t want to confront and is wrapped up in all kinds of other stuff.

Im hoping it will spur her on to get help and be a kick up the backside rather than the “You’re ok, go get a job!” mentality which would probably see her fall to pieces.

Is having a small child something they should take into consideration?

And can someone give me a brief rundown of what she can expect to be asked/do? (or have a good link to info?)

Are you allowed to make an audio recording?


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

The audio recording route is made impossible by ATOS as the recording equipment has to be of a certain type and "calibrated". This is all bollocks and the cost makes it impossible.
However no prob in hiding a recording device so that you can check your notes, can be handy.

Sorry, can't give you a link, but you should be able to find all the questions by delving about.
*Anyone help here please?*
What does the assessment relate to - ESA I presume.
Do a lot of research before Friday, remember they ain't going to help you.


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

Barking
*[RTF]* 

*Atos Origin Form – DWP*


www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/health-declaration.rt
This might help


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 24, 2012)

It's in relation to her claim for Incapacity benefit.

Thanks for your help Yardbird.


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## Libertad (Jan 24, 2012)

http://www.abcofesa.co.uk/board/index.php

Try this.


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Barking, I don't think I can help, but I wish you all the luck in the world.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 24, 2012)

culder said:


> By the end of 2006 I was in no fit state to deal with this anymore. I'd spent more than half my life trying to make things better, and I'd failed. The person I signed on with was such an idiot that I went home crying every time I saw him. There was no such thing as stress. He could go out in his lunch hour and get three jobs, why couldn't I do that?



The three jobs were probably:

1) selling his arse to randy sailors down the docks.

2) selling his arse to undiscerning labourers on the local building sites, and

3) selling his mother to all comers.

It does occur to me that if this person was such a paragon of job-finding abilities, what the unholy fuck was he doing working at a job centre, given his obvious over-qualification for the role?


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

Also, given his 'knowledge' about the 'non-existence' of stress, he'd clearly been on an extensive, in-depth, half-day course on Psychology, and was able to remember what it said on the hand-out.

PS - I have a BSc in Psychology, for what it's worth...


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

Now, how can I say this..?

The JobCentre people and the ATOS people that I have had to deal with were not my intellectual equals.
There. I've said it. In both cases I've asked questions and made observations that they just couldn't cope with.
I'm sure I could fill a vacancy at jobcentre


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## culder (Jan 24, 2012)

But would you want to?!


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 24, 2012)

Reading all this information on ESA's is stressing the fuck out of me. 

I think my other half has adopted the 'head in the sand approach'.


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

I'm not s





Barking_Mad said:


> Reading all this information on ESA's is stressing the fuck out of me.
> 
> I think my other half has adopted the 'head in the sand approach'.



I'm not surprised that you're stressed 
Please persevere, because you need to.

Remember that it is financially to their advantage to turn your mrs down.


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2012)

11 suicides due to the results of ATOS assessments?
*Chris Grayling Corporate Manslaughter Atos Healthcare?*​http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0yRaBth9w6Q#!


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## yardbird (Jan 24, 2012)

W





audiotech said:


> 11 suicides due to the results of ATOS assessments?
> *Chris Grayling Corporate Manslaughter Atos Healthcare?*​http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=0yRaBth9w6Q#!


Why say that people who choose to commit suicide due to their assessment situation are mentally ill and use that as a let out?
I have and do consider this and I'm totally sane, not mentally ill in any way.
Fuck you Ian Duncan Smith!


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Why say that people who choose to commit suicide due to their assessment situation are mentally ill and use that as a let out?



Because he's a self-serving, career politician, who sold his soul to the devil?


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2012)

Welcome culder. My experiences are no too far away from yours, except for giving birth and the teaching bit. I've run out of hoops to jump through and fuck know's where I'm going next? I've an appeal in, we'll see what happens.


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## Greebo (Jan 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Because he's a self-serving, career politician, who sold his soul to the devil?


I seriously doubt that even the devil would ever be so desperate and so lacking in self-respect as to buy whatever remnants of a soul which a career politician might just about still have.


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 25, 2012)

Can anyone confirm, does this assessment affect any ongoing payment of Disability Living allowance directly, or is it just incapacity benefit. Im struggling to work this out


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## WouldBe (Jan 25, 2012)

It doesn't affect DLA at all. They do separate assessments for that. Think I've got to wade through the forms again this summer. 

Good luck with it.


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 25, 2012)

Thanks. I spoke to my wife this morning and she said she thought it was for DLA, so i think she got a shock. She hasnt asked the doctor for accompanying evidence, so ive urged her to get something before Friday.

She didnt seem keen. Ive no idea what's going on with her at the moment, she's not in a good place and she wont speak to me 

Thanks for your help.


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## Streathamite (Jan 25, 2012)

culder said:


> Excellent point, Choc. Interesting that we never hear about the money _they're_ grasping for, isn't it?
> 
> It's probably clear from my first post that I'm feeling very angry. Apologies in advance - this could be a very long post.
> 
> ...


what a heartfelt, impossibly moving post. It just makes me so angry at the bastards in charge of the welfare system


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## smokedout (Jan 25, 2012)

yardbird said:


> W
> Why say that people who choose to commit suicide due to their assessment situation are mentally ill and use that as a let out?



in fact it's the precise opposite of a let out - it's a point of attack.  the most extreme manifestation of some mental health conditions such as depression is suicide.  if atos declare someone with mental health problems fit for work and they then go on to kill themselves then clearly the assessment of their current mental health condition was drastically flawed.


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## Psychonaut (Jan 25, 2012)

Barking_Mad said:


> Can anyone confirm, does this assessment affect any ongoing payment of Disability Living allowance directly, or is it just incapacity benefit. Im struggling to work this out



There is an indirect effect. im sure ive read ( probably on benefitsandwork) that as part of a DLA assessment they may look at your ESA claim as evidence, so its best to fill in the forms etc for ESA with this in mind.


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## Barking_Mad (Jan 25, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> There is an indirect effect. im sure ive read ( probably on benefitsandwork) that as part of a DLA assessment they may look at your ESA claim as evidence, so its best to fill in the forms etc for ESA with this in mind.



Thanks, ive read that since myself.


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## WouldBe (Jan 26, 2012)

I filled my ESA form in using the same info from the photocopy of my DLA form. I will be using the same info next time I need to fill in a DLA form.


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## maldwyn (Jan 26, 2012)

I had an assessment with a nurse this morning who paid very little attention to what I was saying and insisted on asking me questions unrelated to my condition. I had two recent reports from different specialist suggesting two of my ailments were connected and showing they were coordinating treatments - the nurse refused to link them in her report and instead decided to focus on a minor aliment and discount a MRI scan I had last week, an up coming SeHCAT scan scheduled for the 8th Feb and a possible re-doing of a colonoscopy to be discussed when I see by GI consultant next month. I have arrived home feeling deeply frustrated.

Rather than wait for their decision I'd now much rather start working on gathering stuff for an appeal, what kind of things do I need to get together; write up my version of the meeting, presumably ask for a copy of the report, refuse to transfer to JSA and gather letters from my Doctors/Consultants.

Perhaps I'll be lucky and be allowed to stay on ESA until my diagnosis has been sorted, but judging from today's meeting I seriously doubt it.


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## culder (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not expert enough to answer all your questions, Maldwyn, but I would say definitely write up your version of the meeting while it's still fresh in your mind. You probably can't ask for a copy of the report until after you get the decision, but you're definitely entitled to ask for it then. Get as much as you can from doctors and consultants. You shouldn't have to transfer to JSA during your appeal, should you need one, but ESA would be at the basic rate.

It's bloody disgraceful that people should have to consider doing all this even when they haven't had a result yet, but if you can do some of those things, all the better.

My current situation - I got nowhere with CAB because their phone number just gives a recorded message, and it costs about £4.50 in bus fares to go there and sit and wait for however long to be seen. I ended up phoning Welfare Rights, who are going to help me as much as they can. They did say, though, that the appeal can take 6 months, during which I'll be on the basic ESA rate. The difference _is_ refunded if you win, but that doesn't really help when the bills are due in the meantime.

Thanks to all for your comments and encouragement. I'm really glad I came here.


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## audiotech (Jan 26, 2012)

http://victimsofatoscorruption.word...hey-really-are-taking-the-piss-with-this-one/


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> http://victimsofatoscorruption.word...hey-really-are-taking-the-piss-with-this-one/


Thanks for highlighting this article and the blog audiotech


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## ymu (Jan 26, 2012)

How in holy hell is that man required to apply for benefits? He should be living in the lap of luxury courtesy of TVP with the PC concerned employed to lick his arse clean when he has the shits.

Fuck's sake.


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## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2012)

ymu said:


> How in holy hell is that man required to apply for benefits? He should be living in the lap of luxury courtesy of TVP with the PC concerned employed to lick his arse clean when he has the shits.
> 
> Fuck's sake.


Exactly. What makes it worse is that he will not be the only one with such a bad state of health.

I bet Atos deduct points for being able to breathe.


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## Quartz (Jan 27, 2012)

Is it not possible to terminate these interviews early when the assessor is clearly not listening or trying it on? Something along the lines of, "I'm sorry, but you have not listened to my statements about A, B, and C. You are not conducting a proper and fair assessment. I am therefore terminating this interview and will be making a formal complaint immediately."

Or (being cynical) will that be taken as sufficient intelligence to hold down a white-collar job regardless of disability?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> Yep, same with my friend who has severe auto immune disorder. She never knows when a flare is going to happen. Anyway she's had a shit year last year, heart attack in August (after which they took away her DLA). She came out of hospital yesterday, she was in fora fortnight because she'd had a stroke, they discovered evidence of another six strokes since her heart attack. *All of this seems to make no difference to Atos. If they see her on a good day, they'll pass her.*



and therein lies the nub.

This is what happened to my friend. They stopped his DLA at a stroke.

7 months later we attended a tribunal whose members were a retired Barrister, a retired Surgeon and a top professional quango-sitter. We won and his benefits were reinstated and back-dated. He was lucky in that a) he knew me and b) we got top-notch advice and guidance from a local elected representative who used to be a Welfare Rights worker/advocate.

But the person who helped most was the fella who worked for the crowd who facilitated the tribunals. He told us bluntly (but privately, outside) that 75% of people just folded when they got the original 'You are fucked' letter. Of those who pursued an appeal, most were so intimidated they did not turn up for the tribunal. Of those who did, many just got so wound up that they either could not speak effectively for themselves or they just lost the head and told the panel to stick their benefits up their hole. Then he said he had no vested interest, but this was M's last chance saloon so we should hold nothing back - he even used the old Football expression of 'leave it all on the field, it's no use to you back in the dressing room'.

He also told us yer wan from the Social was a right nasty, vindictive cunt and the panel were not exactly impressed by her total lack of human warmth and her determination to humiliate people. He also gave us some info on the backgrounds of the panel which we used.

This shifted our focus a bit and we went for it big time. We gently pushed her buttons and she bit like fuck and you could actually see the growing disdain they had for her position.  Between her snatching defeat from the jaws of inevitable victory and us playing a blinder, we managed to shift them into (what your man later told us was) a unanimous decision.

Like a Court, there was no justice to be had in that room. Just a loaded system. Fortunately, we had learned the rules of engagement. Most people don't have that resource.


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## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And that is why, unethical though it is, I recommend to people that if they're on painkillers and can manage without them for a couple of days, to stop taking them (or at least minimise their intake) 2-3 days before the appointment, so that the desk-monkey gets an inkling of the pain and distress you suffer.



Not just an excellent idea - but unfortunately a pre-requisite.


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## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

yardbird said:


> To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._
> 
> That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?



hammer. nail. head.

It's like that old US Marine shite you used to see on T-shirts "KILL 'EM ALL - LET GOD SORT THEM OUT"


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## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 27, 2012)

I wouldn't say unethical as much as sound practical advice tbf


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## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> I wouldn't say unethical as much as sound practical advice tbf



not sure who that is aimed at tbh, can you expand a bit?


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## Paulie Tandoori (Jan 27, 2012)

I thought I was quoting VP's post inre: stopping p/k's a couple of days before assessment but clearly didn't. Moral? Don't try to post from "smart" phone, stupid thing....


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## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> I thought I was quoting VP's post inre: stopping p/k's a couple of days before assessment but clearly didn't.



Got you now. I agree.

This is NOT about justice or 'fairness'... it's about learning the rules and playing the game. Their job is to stop your benefits. You have to provide compelling reasons for them to fuck off and leave you alone.


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## pinkmonkey (Jan 27, 2012)

My friend is back in hospital again, she had another stroke. She really should qualify for a higher level of DLA, now.


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## Streathamite (Jan 27, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Got you now. I agree.
> 
> This is NOT about justice or 'fairness'... it's about learning the rules and playing the game. Their job is to stop your benefits. You have to provide compelling reasons for them to fuck off and leave you alone.


absolutely right; ATOS and the govt's disgusting behaviour more or less compels people to climb into the same gutter


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## yardbird (Jan 27, 2012)

LiamO said:


> This is NOT about justice or 'fairness'... it's about learning the rules and playing the game.


Just think about all those who have no idea, no help and no desire to play 'the game'. At least those of us here are able to exchange thoughts, feelings and ideas.

I'm 64 in a few days, so I may well be an OAP before they get to do my re-assessment, I must check what happens then


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## yardbird (Jan 27, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> My friend is back in hospital again, she had another stroke. She really should qualify for a higher level of DLA, now.


Absolutely not!
That's tantamount to scrounging.
In hospital, then no need for any mobility monies, in hospital, then getting care 'for free', so no need for care allowance. That's the way the bastards think.

Sorry to hear about your friend's stroke and hope they get sorted.


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## LiamO (Jan 27, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Just think about all those who have no idea, no help and no desire to play 'the game'. At least those of us here are able to exchange thoughts, feelings and ideas.
> 
> I'm 64 in a few days, so I may well be an OAP before they get to do my re-assessment, I must check what happens then



I _do_ think of them.

I am also representing another friend in his travails with Social Services. over the last 3 years things have come full circle at it is a case of _him_ persecuting _them_ now. As part of our 'investigations' we came across many people who were treated abominably by the same team but simply did not have the Resources to challenge them - and had ample anecdotal evidence of what might happen should they even try.

my friend was a 63-year old former farm labourer. A simple, decent man of few words - but as sharp as a tack (as many country folk are).


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Got you now. I agree.
> 
> This is NOT about justice or 'fairness'... it's about learning the rules and playing the game. Their job is to stop your benefits. You have to provide compelling reasons for them to fuck off and leave you alone.



This is why I've had some success helping other people with their claims. I've learned the "right" way to act, the "right" way to fill out the forms, and I *don't* do the one thing that fucks a lot of claimants for disability benefits over: I *don't* do that stiff upper lip bullshit. I write a full explanation of the pain, fatigue etc caused by carrying out various actions mentioned in the forms, the implications of various medications etc. I've managed a few good results, including an "indefinite" medium care, high mobility award for an Urbanite's other half, and an "indefinite" high rate attendance allowance award for a relative. If you play the game according to how *they* play it, rather than merely following the so-called advice that they give you with the forms or from their helpline, success is far more likely.
Problem is, you generally have to learn this shit the hard way, from getting fucked over by trusting the DWP to be compassionate, or even "human", rather than bureaucrats.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2012)

pinkmonkey said:


> My friend is back in hospital again, she had another stroke. She really should qualify for a higher level of DLA, now.



I'm very sorry to hear that.
Could you or someone else make a point of collecting up all the paperwork the hospital will send her once she's let out? They usually send the patient and the patient's GP results of all the tests administered in hospital, and it can make a *massive* difference to a claim if you can provide copies of this stuff alongside a claim. They can't ignore diagnostic print-outs that easily!


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2012)

LiamO said:


> I _do_ think of them.
> 
> I am also representing another friend in his travails with Social Services. over the last 3 years things have come full circle at it is a case of _him_ persecuting _them_ now. As part of our 'investigations' we came across many people who were treated abominably by the same team but simply did not have the Resources to challenge them - and had ample anecdotal evidence of what might happen should they even try.
> 
> my friend was a 63-year old former farm labourer. A simple, decent man of few words - but as sharp as a tack (as many country folk are).



This is how I operate. If they want to fuck with me, then fine.
Just as long as they don't expect me not to fuck with them in return.


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## treelover (Jan 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> This is why I've had some success helping other people with their claims. I've learned the "right" way to act, the "right" way to fill out the forms, and I *don't* do the one thing that fucks a lot of claimants for disability benefits over: I *don't* do that stiff upper lip bullshit. I write a full explanation of the pain, fatigue etc caused by carrying out various actions mentioned in the forms, the implications of various medications etc. I've managed a few good results, including an "indefinite" medium care, high mobility award for an Urbanite's other half, and an "indefinite" high rate attendance allowance award for a relative. If you play the game according to how *they* play it, rather than merely following the so-called advice that they give you with the forms or from their helpline, success is far more likely.
> Problem is, you generally have to learn this shit the hard way, from getting fucked over by trusting the DWP to be compassionate, or even "human", rather than bureaucrats.


 
the new benefits, ESA, and soon PIP won't allow for this amount of detail, narrative, explanation, etc..


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> the new benefits, ESA, and soon PIP won't allow for this amount of detail, narrative, explanation, etc..



The way I see it, they're getting to the point with ESA where they'll have no choice but to include it. Grayling either cedes ground, or he watches the tribunal waiting list continue to rise even if he makes right to appeal harder to access, and if he does that, he's tacitly admitting that his "reforms" totally got everything wrong (although he'd probably like to pass the buck to Harrington, if he hadn't already shot himself in the foot there).


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## culder (Jan 27, 2012)

_I bet Atos deduct points for being able to breathe._

Funny, that - I was just thinking yesterday, "If you can breathe, you're fit for work".

It gets worse and worse.


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## Psychonaut (Jan 27, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The audio recording route is made impossible by ATOS as the recording equipment has to be of a certain type and "calibrated". This is all bollocks and the cost makes it impossible.
> .



I read a post last week somewhere which may have been on a site called dwpexaminations.

someone with some legal confidence and/or a solicitor claimed to have had a fair bit of success going down this route - they insisted that ATOS had to fund the sound engineers bill, since it was their requirement. Then ATOS told the claimant theyd have to sign a disclaimer saying that their copy of the recording couldnt be useed as propaganda etc, but s/he refused on the basis that they had created a contract, and giving a claimant a contract infringed some sort of law.

IIRC the story ended abruptly without a clear ending, but if its true then at the very least it delayed the examination for a few weeks which is a few more weeks money at the higher rate.



> Sorry, can't give you a link, but you should be able to find all the questions by delving about.



this is supposed to be the training guide that DWP staff themselves use.

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf


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## Frankie Jack (Jan 27, 2012)

*Tom Greatrex MP informs me of Debate on WCA/Atos on 1st feb 9.30am – 11.00 –Westminster Hall…

From Victims of Atos Corruption Blog.*


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## yardbird (Jan 27, 2012)

Phycho
When I looked into the recording thing with ATOS they didn't say that they had any equipment. The charge for 'calibrating' was for the gear that I would supply.
I said that since I could operate a 24 channel mixing desk I would be able to set the gear perfectly by myself thank you!
(haven't worked a desk for 20 years)
We bantered back and forth a few times and they were nothing but obstructive
The evil thing is that they _know _what they are doing and the pain that they are inflicting .


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## audiotech (Jan 28, 2012)

Quoted from the training sneaks guide.




> In addition to the examination of the upper limbs as subsequently described, always inspect the hands carefully and document any evidence of ingrained dirt or callosities, indicating the possibility of some heavy domestic/manual work at some point in time (but be careful to consider that the callosities may not necessarily represent recent manual work).


http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf


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## yardbird (Jan 28, 2012)

^^ That's not sneaking, that's spying.
The 'professionals' indeed  - "document any evidence"

Get Deckard to run a VoiceCom on him.


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## equationgirl (Jan 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Quoted from the training sneaks guide.
> 
> 
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf


Here's the first two paragraphs - I haven't been able read any further as anecdotal evidence reported on this and other sites has already indicated these statements not to be followed or true in practice:

"This training has been produced as part of a training programme for Health Care Professionals approved or appointed by the Department for Work and Pensions Chief Medical Adviser to carry out benefit assessment work.

*All Health Care Professionals undertaking medical assessments must be registered medical practitioners, nursing practitioners or physiotherapists who, in addition, have undergone training in disability assessment medicine and specific training in the relevant benefit areas.* The training includes theory training in a classroom setting, supervised practical training, and a demonstration of understanding as assessed by quality audit"

I dread to think what other 'gems' will be revealed (my bold for emphasis).


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## equationgirl (Jan 28, 2012)

Here's some stuff specific to ATOS on p19 of the handbook:

'*The role of the Atos Healthcare HCP *

All Health Care Professionals who give advice relating to Employment and Support Allowance must be approved by the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions. Approval involves specific training; successful completion of various stages of the approval process, and ongoing demonstration that the work being carried out meets a satisfactory standard. The ESA approved HCP is required to provide advice to the DWP Decision Maker in accordance with the current guidance issued by the Department for Work and Pensions.

Approved HCPs may be either employed or contracted to work on a sessional basis.

The role of the HCP is to help Decision Makers reach fair and proper decisions on benefit entitlement, by providing advice which is:



Legible and concise 



Fair and impartial 



Medically correct 



Consistent and complete 



In accordance with the relevant legislation. 

In carrying out this function, ESA approved HCPs act as specialist disability analysts. The role of the disability analyst is different from the more familiar clinical role of reaching a diagnosis and arranging treatment. For the disability analyst, a precise diagnosis is of secondary importance. The primary function is to make an assessment of how a person's day to day life is affected by disability, and to relate this to the legislative requirements. '

Disability analysts ffs


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 29, 2012)

yardbird said:


> ^^ That's not sneaking, that's spying.
> The 'professionals' indeed - "document any evidence"
> 
> Get Deckard to run a VoiceCom on him.



I'll only submit to one if I get to shoot them when they ask about my mother.


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## audiotech (Jan 29, 2012)

'A positive agenda for disability and employment'. Prof'. Paul Gregg - TUC seminar.

"...no welfare reliance problem relative to other developed nations..."

"..welfare reliance is in long-term decline..."

"reform and scream"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=XLtAu25ot0M#!


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## culder (Jan 30, 2012)

Today I got a letter from the council, saying that the DWP have informed them that I will no longer be entitled to Income Support, so my Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit will be stopped as from the 9th Feb.

This _will_ be sorted - I spoke to someone and I 'just' need to fill in the form they sent.

But it's another phone call, another form to fill in.

How much stress do these people think I need before I crack?


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## Greebo (Jan 30, 2012)

Oh fuck.  (((Culder)))


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## josef1878 (Jan 30, 2012)

culder said:


> Today I got a letter from the council, saying that the DWP have informed them that I will no longer be entitled to Income Support, so my Housing Benefit and Council Tax benefit will be stopped as from the 9th Feb.
> 
> This _will_ be sorted - I spoke to someone and I 'just' need to fill in the form they sent.
> 
> ...



Hello culder, I read your earlier posts today having heard about your medical from your boyfriend last week. Heart rending stuff. I hope you have found some of the information on here useful and supportive. Do not give in and do not let them grind you down.


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## culder (Jan 30, 2012)

Thank you, Josef. As I've already said, I'm really glad I came here. Just talking to people who understand is a great help.

I know it's going to be a long haul, but somehow I have to stick with it.


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## smokedout (Jan 31, 2012)

just a quick post to say there's a demo in Nottingham against Atos this Friday: http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/2373

and a solidarity demo in London on friday lunchtime as well: http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wo...ide-atos-in-solidarity-with-the-nottingham-2/


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## Greebo (Jan 31, 2012)

smokedout said:


> just a quick post to say there's a demo in Nottingham against Atos this Friday: http://nottingham.indymedia.org.uk/articles/2373
> 
> and a solidarity demo in London on friday lunchtime as well: http://benefitclaimantsfightback.wo...ide-atos-in-solidarity-with-the-nottingham-2/


Thanks for the heads up


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## Greebo (Jan 31, 2012)

culder said:


> <snip>I know it's going to be a long haul, but somehow I have to stick with it.


It's no longer just about the money, although that's needed.  IMHO it's also about the principle of what National Insurance is for.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 31, 2012)

Greebo said:


> It's no longer just about the money, although that's needed. IMHO it's also about the principle of what National Insurance is for.



And also about what National Insurance has been sold to most of the post-war generations *as*.


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## temper_tantrum (Jan 31, 2012)

Watchdog (the BBC programme) is asking for contacts of people who have been declared fit for work by Atos when they're clearly not. Just thought people on here might find that bit of information interesting ...
Contact details on their Twitter page ...

https://twitter.com/#!/BBCWatchdog


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## yardbird (Jan 31, 2012)

Thanks for that t_t
Very fresh info.


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## frogwoman (Jan 31, 2012)

temper_tantrum said:


> Watchdog (the BBC programme) is asking for contacts of people who have been declared fit for work by Atos when they're clearly not. Just thought people on here might find that bit of information interesting ...
> Contact details on their Twitter page ...
> 
> https://twitter.com/#!/BBCWatchdog



excellent stuff. i didnt know that show was still going tbh as i thought anne robinson and co had gone on to greater and better things. i always used to watch it as a kid and scare myself senseless about carbon monoxide etc.


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## Psychonaut (Jan 31, 2012)

i would like to find a link to download the LiMA software.

Ive got the training manual, but it only shows you a few actual screen captures from the program and it contains scroll-windows which obviously you cant scroll down to see all the options.

I reckon if you had an companion in the examination room with you with an air of officialdom who was visibly looking through the system themselves as the questions progressed (whether laptop or a paper version) and making the odd interjection and comment to that effect, that might encourage the HCP to behave themselves and not try it on with the trick questions. It could also make them angry i suppose, but if there was also an elusive sound engineer present they wouldnt have much room left to fuck about in - they would have to check the boxes on LiMA that most closely represented what you were saying/doing or leave a provable record that they had falsified evidence.


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> i would like to find a link to download the LiMA software.
> 
> Ive got the training manual, but it only shows you a few actual screen captures from the program and it contains scroll-windows which obviously you cant scroll down to see all the options.
> 
> I reckon if you had an companion in the examination room with you with an air of officialdom who was visibly looking through the system themselves as the questions progressed (whether laptop or a paper version) and making the odd interjection and comment to that effect, that might encourage the HCP to behave themselves and not try it on with the trick questions. It could also make them angry i suppose, but if there was also an elusive sound engineer present they wouldnt have much room left to fuck about in - they would have to check the boxes on LiMA that most closely represented what you were saying/doing or leave a provable record that they had falsified evidence.



From: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/atos_origin_claimant_assessing_s

'Logic Integrated Medical Assessment (LiMA) software was designed to run on Atos Healthcare networked based PCs and has no independent function.
It provides healthcare professionals (HCPs) with a system of data entry that minimises typing but the use of Standard phrases is never mandated
and the option of 'free text' (where the user types into the report) is always available. There are no constraints placed on the HCP as to what
information is recorded or how. *The questions and options built into the LiMA programme are exactly the same as those in the clerical form IB85 **Incapacity for Work Medical Report Form*. This form was designed by the Department for Work and Pensions.'

FOI request denied as the DWP claimed the value of the software overrode public/taxpayer interest.


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2012)

Lots of really good stuff on this link from the ABC of ESA: http://www.abcofesa.co.uk/board/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=330


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2012)

Also - and apologies to anyone if this is old news:

*Parliamentary Question: the LIMA technical manual to be placed in Library of House of Lords, 30 November 2011*

by Tony Britton on December 1, 2011

The Countess of Mar tabled a written question asking the Government whether,in the light of the holding of Commissioner Williams in tribunal case CIB/664/2005, the Department for Work and Pensions will make available to all appeal tribunals, claimants and representatives the Logic Integrated Medical Treatment (LIMA) Technical Manual 2011; and whether they will place a copy in the Library of the House together with a copy of the LIMA software questionnaire used for assessment of claimants by healthcare professionals.
_*In a reply supplied on 30 November 2011, Lord Freud (Minister for Welfare Reform) answered:*_

Commercial Management of Medical Services will arrange for a copy of the Logic Integrated Medical Assessment Technical Manual 2011 and the LIMA software questionnaires which are contained in appendices 3 & 4 of the Employment and Support Allowance Handbook to be placed in the Library of the House.
*The Logic Integrated Medical Assessment Technical Manual 2011 and the LIMA software questionnaire (ESA 85) are currently available to tribunals, claimants and representatives through the submission of a written request under the Freedom of Information Act to Commercial Management of Medical Services, Room 306, Block 3, Norcross, FY5 3TA or by email @ DWP.MEDICALSERVICESCORRESPONDENCE@DWP.GSI.GOV.UK*​


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## culder (Feb 1, 2012)

The way things are for me at the moment, all this stuff about LIMA is going over my head!

My appeal is now in the post, and I have copies of supporting stuff that I've sent, eg the letter from my doctor. I'll be taking the Housing Benefit form to the local office tomorrow (they're closed today) - it's only round the corner, and that'll be quicker than the post.

Now it's a matter of waiting.


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## WouldBe (Feb 1, 2012)

culder said:


> My appeal is now in the post, and I have copies of supporting stuff that I've sent, eg the letter from my doctor.....



I've sent some supporting evidence in to my tribunal. I got a letter from them the other day thanking me for the supporting evidence and including a photocopy for my records.


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## culder (Feb 1, 2012)

That's good, WouldBe. And well done on the non smoking! I haven't been able to manage that, despite my diagnosis of COPD, dammit.


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## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2012)

The software appears to be a closely guarded secret of the DWP (even though the taxpayer will have paid many millions towards it, it's owned by Atos). Basically the links - including the manual - show the reasons why everyone is getting really wrong reports.

It's the way the software works - it 'simplifies' the assessment by guiding the assessor through drop-down menu choices. If additional information is provided in text boxes, the software disregards it. At the end of the assessment, a report is generated. The software uses to drop down menu choices to generate simple sentences which can then supposedly be used to make an informed decision about benefits.

The problem is, a lot of report generated doesn't make any sense. For example, claimants have produced reports with sentences like 'the claimant has a mild upper limb amputation, but has seen a specialist about this condition' or 'the claimant can walk for 1 minute'.

I thought the links might provide ways to fight the DWP at appeal stage. I hope they are useful.


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## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2012)

culder said:


> The way things are for me at the moment, all this stuff about LIMA is going over my head!
> 
> My appeal is now in the post, and I have copies of supporting stuff that I've sent, eg the letter from my doctor. I'll be taking the Housing Benefit form to the local office tomorrow (they're closed today) - it's only round the corner, and that'll be quicker than the post.
> 
> Now it's a matter of waiting.


Don't forget to get a receipt for the form


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## ymu (Feb 1, 2012)

Nice work EG, thanks.


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## yardbird (Feb 2, 2012)

Shit!
I was just checking the thread and broke off because I saw the postie.
From ATOS I've got a bloody ESA50 
Gone into panic mode and shaking - and that's just from just reading the cover letter


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Shit!
> I was just checking the thread and broke off because I saw the postie.
> From ATOS I've got a bloody ESA50
> Gone into panic mode and shaking - and that's just from just reading the cover letter



Fuck! Sorry to hear that!


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Shit!
> I was just checking the thread and broke off because I saw the postie.
> From ATOS I've got a bloody ESA50
> Gone into panic mode and shaking - and that's just from just reading the cover letter


It's OK for them to ignore letters you send them. Just stick it in the bin and claim you never received it. 

If only it was that easy


----------



## Greebo (Feb 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck! Sorry to hear that!


^^^This. Brown Envelope Syndrome is a bitch, worse when you know that it's almost definitely bad news. Good luck with the claim and for goodness sake get yourself a drink or something before you go any further with it at all. (((yardbird)))


----------



## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

(((Yardbird)))

EG - yes, I have a receipt, and the woman I saw was very sympathetic. I commented that this is all probably making a lot of extra work for a lot of people. She agreed, and said that it's also going to cost a lot in the long-term.


----------



## treelover (Feb 2, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> From: http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/atos_origin_claimant_assessing_s
> 
> 'Logic Integrated Medical Assessment (LiMA) software was designed to run on Atos Healthcare networked based PCs and has no independent function.
> It provides healthcare professionals (HCPs) with a system of data entry that minimises typing but the use of Standard phrases is never mandated
> ...



RE: FOI requests, its great to see civic minded citizens using their own money to challenge the DWP, Dept Of Environment, etc, Blair now thinks the FOI act was a mistake, good..


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## yardbird (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm going to ignore ESA50 until next week and try and enjoy the weekend.


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## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

Remind me what ESA50 is.


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## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

Forget that question, I've just checked, and it's the dreaded questionnaire.

Good idea to leave it for now and get what you can out of the weekend. My only suggestion would be to fill in the 'easy bits' now - name, address, d.o.b. etc - then you can put it aside for a couple of days and think, "Well at least I've made a start on it".


----------



## yardbird (Feb 2, 2012)

culder said:


> Forget that question, I've just checked, and it's the dreaded questionnaire.
> 
> Good idea to leave it for now and get what you can out of the weekend. My only suggestion would be to fill in the 'easy bits' now - name, address, d.o.b. etc - then you can put it aside for a couple of days and think, "Well at least I've made a start on it".



I'm going to London on Saturday to meets some urbs,so that'll totally wipe me out for at least 3/4 days.
I'll feel really grim - perfect time to go through the ESA50 with a pencil.


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## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

Don't know what urbs are! But going to London sounds good - my boyfriend comes from there so we get to visit his family a couple of times a year, and it always makes me feel good - I love that place! I worked in Carnaby Street in my late teens (mid-1970s), and I have some great memories.

Take your mind off the shit while you can.


----------



## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

The stupid thing is - well, one of the stupid things is - that I want to get well, and for a couple of years I've been trying to change things so that maybe I can start thinking about getting into work. I drink too much, and that's something I definitely need to fix, and I'm still smoking despite my COPD, which _will_ kill me if I don't stop smoking. And I never exercise, which would help my physical fitness _and_ my mental health.

So far I haven't done well with any of these things, but I've at least been able to make an effort on occasions, and I had hoped to keep trying this year. But you need to feel positive, even if it's just a little bit, just to make the effort. And because of all this ATOS stuff I've been knocked sideways and no longer feel able to try anything at all to help myself.

If they'd left me well alone, I might've been able to make some progress with my problems. Not a chance, now. 2012 is gone, as far as my progress is concerned.


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## yardbird (Feb 2, 2012)

culder
We're all urbs here, or whatever else


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## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

Still don't know what it means!


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## culder (Feb 2, 2012)

D'oh! Just figured it out!


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## equationgirl (Feb 2, 2012)

Yardbird - sorry to hear you've got the form. On the ABC of ESA website (link I previously posted) they discuss why it is so hard to get a reasonable assessment. There's been a lot of changes to the scoring used compared to the previous system, and in my opinion it's so heavily weighted towards passing people fit for work no matter what that is has become virtually useless. It may be worth bearing this in mind when completing the form.

Here's the ABC of ESA site: http://www.abcofesa.co.uk/board/index.php

Best of luck.


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 2, 2012)

Good luck with the questionnaire, yardie x

Not sure if this has been posted already, but I wondered if this would be relevant to anyone.. 

Mental Health Resistance Network are working towards making a claim for a judicial review of the WCA, focussing on those claiming on mental health grounds.  They're looking for people willing to talk about what sort of problems they had with the WCA/the process of claiming ESA, specifically 

1) people who claimed and were turned down for ESA but were successful on appeal when they produced additional medical evidence 
 or 
2) people who were turned down for ESA and did *not* appeal but reapplied with medical evidence, and were successful. 

more info/contact details on DPAC's website.


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## maldwyn (Feb 3, 2012)

Had my review on the 26th Jan and received a cryptic letter from DWP this morning, phoned them and was told I passed and will be reviewed again in six months. While it's a bit of a relief I can only hope my surgery/chemo is complete by then. In the 18 months I've been ill I have had 3 reviews which in and of it's self is pretty stressful.

Nothing would suit me better than being well enough to return to work in August.

Good luck to those of you under review my thoughts are with you.


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## yardbird (Feb 4, 2012)

"Tell us about any help that you would need if you have to go for a face-to-face  assessment"
This is in the ESA50
Have to go???
There is no option for can't travel to you -


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## treelover (Feb 4, 2012)

'A friend of a friend (female late 50s) went for her DLA assessment recently - was asked how her sex life was (how active / how often) and was asked whether she would be capable of using a 'Rampant Rabbit!'
Don't know if this was a male or female assessor or whether it was DWP or ATOS.
True story.'


from a welfare blog, sounds  apochryphal, but if true, ffs....​


----------



## audiotech (Feb 4, 2012)

I've a review and appeal at the same time!



You got that.............


----------



## culder (Feb 4, 2012)

Heavy.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 4, 2012)

yardbird said:


> "Tell us about any help that you would need if you have to go for a face-to-face assessment"
> This is in the ESA50
> Have to go???
> There is no option for can't travel to you -


 
Surprise surprise. They've never been hot on publicising that you can request a home visit.


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## maldwyn (Feb 4, 2012)

Their conditions for taking a taxi were you had to get a letter from your Dr stating why you needed one and any charge for the letter had to be paid for by the claimant.


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## culder (Feb 4, 2012)

Um - not relevant to the thread, but when I come here I get a message that says - "Hi culder!
The Urban75 boards have now been upgraded to XenForo 1.1.1.
There's a thread here about the changes."

But when I click on the link it says I don't have permission to view it. Wtf?


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## maldwyn (Feb 4, 2012)

perhaps you need a certain number of post before being allowed in the community section.


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## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2012)

culder said:


> Um - not relevant to the thread, but when I come here I get a message that says - "Hi culder!
> The Urban75 boards have now been upgraded to XenForo 1.1.1.
> There's a thread here about the changes."
> 
> But when I click on the link it says I don't have permission to view it. Wtf?


You do need a certain number of posts before you can see the community forum. If you want to the message to go, there's an 'X' in the top right hand corner, just click on it to make it disappear.


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## culder (Feb 5, 2012)

Okay, thanks.


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2012)

culder said:


> Okay, thanks.


 How's things going today, culder?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surprise surprise. They've never been hot on publicising that you can request a home visit.


Because it would cost them money, I suppose, and because if you need a home visit then you're obviously not fit for work, which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise?


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## yardbird (Feb 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Because it would cost them money, I suppose, and because if you need a home visit then you're obviously not fit for work, which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise?


My GP and MS Nurse are insistent that I am not to go to them, lets see what they have to say.


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2012)

yardbird said:


> My GP and MS Nurse are insistent that I am not to go to them, lets see what they have to say.


I really hope this doesn't set you back to much. yardbird, or anybody else for that matter. If there is anything I can do let me know.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Because it would cost them money, I suppose, and because if you need a home visit then you're obviously not fit for work, which defeats the purpose of the whole exercise?


 
Pretty much.

My usual tactic is to phone the enquiry number on the covering letter, and ask to speak to "medical services". This *usually* gets you put through to someone who can arrange a home visit. I'm going to have a quick butchers through my copy of the Disability Rights Handbook to check that the DWP/ATOS/whichever group of shit-eaters are responsible still have to grant home visits.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

Right, so they have a commitment to carrying out home visits, albeit a minimum commitment.
Here, they state "The medical assessment will usually take place at a Medical Centre near where you live. *If you're unfit to travel* or you live more than 90 minutes' journey from the nearest centre, the approved healthcare professional may visit you at home." (my emphasis).


----------



## yardbird (Feb 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right, so they have a commitment to carrying out home visits, albeit a minimum commitment.
> Here, they state "The medical assessment will usually take place at a Medical Centre near where you live. *If you're unfit to travel* or you live more than 90 minutes' journey from the nearest centre, the approved healthcare professional may visit you at home." (my emphasis).


Nuts!
If they were able to keep an appointment maybe, but when I went previously, having asked for the first appointment, I discover that they block book!
I have to carefully balance my body and prepare mentally and I may be okay for an hour or so, but to be told one to one and a half hours wait when you have double incontinence (I can control a lot, but...)
All the front of house girl did was point to the loo.
Talk about not understand !!

This is in front of others - no privacy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Nuts!
> If they were able to keep an appointment maybe, but when I went previously, having asked for the first appointment, I discover that they block book!
> I have to carefully balance my body and prepare mentally and I may be okay for an hour or so, but to be told one to one and a half hours wait when you have double incontinence (I can control a lot, but...)
> All the front of house girl did was point to the loo.
> ...


 
Then you need to emphasise in the form (there should be a bit for additional info near the back) that your incontinence and other problems mean you need a home visit. Lay it on thick, mention that you take pain and spasm control medication that has certain effects on you, as does the physical stress of attempting to exercise sphincter control for any significant length of time. They *have* to provide home visits if you're unfit to travel, and that doesn't just mean if you're not mobile enough, it also means "if your condition precludes spending any length of time more than 10-15 seconds away from a loo".


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2012)

Home visit, I think, yardbird, there's no saying how long you could wait to get into the assessment, never mind the time travelling to and from the centre.


----------



## culder (Feb 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> How's things going today, culder?


 
Okay, thanks, EG - there's not much they can do to us on a Sunday


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Home visit, I think, yardbird, there's no saying how long you could wait to get into the assessment, never mind the time travelling to and from the centre.


 
One time I got asked (I have continence problems myself) "couldn't you take Immodium?". "Yes", replied I, "if I want to make my problems a lot worse and more painful by constantly taking stuff to stop me shitting when my stomach wants to do otherwise".


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 5, 2012)

Just start a business VP ffs.


----------



## maldwyn (Feb 5, 2012)

They suggested I could get adult nappies from my G.P 

I took and made them note I had a change of clothing at my last interview.


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> One time I got asked (I have continence problems myself) "couldn't you take Immodium?". "Yes", replied I, "if I want to make my problems a lot worse and more painful by constantly taking stuff to stop me shitting when my stomach wants to do otherwise".


People just don't get it, do they?

I often get asked if a kidney transplant would help. My response normally involves a ten minute overview of the transplant system and why, even if I did get a transplant, I'd swap one set of problems for another.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> They suggested I could get adult nappies from my G.P
> 
> I took and made them note I had a change of clothing at my last interview.


 
Yep, same here, plus wipes, and separate placcy bags for sticking the soiled clothing and cleaning materials in. Reaction was "huh?", to which I asked, "what, so I'm just supposed to stick my shitty clothes straight in my man-bag, and leave whoever's toilet I've borrowed looking like someone has exploded a sewage bomb in it?". Half of these twats don't know they're born!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> People just don't get it, do they?
> 
> I often get asked if a kidney transplant would help. My response normally involves a ten minute overview of the transplant system and why, even if I did get a transplant, I'd swap one set of problems for another.


 
You expect better from "medically-trained personnel", but seldom bleeding get it!


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## yardbird (Feb 5, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> They suggested I could get adult nappies from my G.P





ViolentPanda said:


> Yep, same here, plus wipes, and separate placcy bags for sticking the soiled clothing and cleaning materials in. Reaction was "huh?", to which I asked, "what, so I'm just supposed to stick my shitty clothes straight in my man-bag, and leave whoever's toilet I've borrowed looking like someone has exploded a sewage bomb in it?". Half of these twats don't know they're born!


Fuck me!!
They are inhumane!
This sort of thing is definitely out of order and something Joe Public should be aware of.
Duty of care - total bollocks


----------



## treelover (Feb 6, 2012)

'I was at my Prosthetic centre a couple of weeks back and was talking to a chap there. He had been attacked in broad daylight in the centre of Milton Keynes by a bunch of yobs, badly cut and bruised, the wheels on his chair bent so it is now practically immobile (though neither the council nor his PCT will give him a replacement). He got all the taunts about being a scrounger and that he should "save the taxpayer some money and die". All the while, people passing did nothing. The police gave him a crime number and said there's nothing they could do. The guy is 73 and worked all his life until he was 68 as a skilled marine engineer. He now says he daren't leave his flat on his own.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...bled-people?commentpage=all#start-of-comments


From CIf, the propaganda is having serious consequences, sadly it looks like its often youths who are not working, the 'underclass' who are undertaking these attacks...


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## yardbird (Feb 6, 2012)

If they try to suggest the diaper route, or any other nonsense, then I shall involve my solicitor as well as my GP and MS nurse.

Demeaning, degrading and cruel.
European Court of Human Rights ?
I'm not altogether joking!


----------



## culder (Feb 6, 2012)

What a bloody disgrace.

I've had more problems today, regarding Housing Benefit. I got a letter at the weekend saying that I owe 4 weeks' rent, because my benefit had been stopped. How does that work? My IB/IS doesn't stop till Wednesday this week. The letter was dated the day before I took my HB application form to their office, so I assumed it was a stupid mistake and didn't take it too seriously.

Today I phoned them about it, and that's where it gets complicated. HB dept said they'd been informed of my benefits stopping (but not the date), and therefore hadn't sent out January's rent payments to Housing dept (who are now privatised). I would have to speak to Housing dept. _They_ said they'd acted on info provided, and I would have to speak to HB dept.

There was a lot more to it than that, of course.

I finally tracked down the HB letter that stated the date that my benefits stop (so they _did_ know when it was), so I rang them back, got a sensible person this time, and she confirmed that they definitely had the date, and she put in an appeal, or report, or something, saying that the HB should be brought up to this Wednesday. She read it all back to me so that I could check everything she'd put, and it should now be sorted.

I'm not sure I can afford to hold my breath.


----------



## treelover (Feb 6, 2012)

'there is no shortage of jobs
Maria Miller blames unemployment on people's unwillingness to apply for work'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/06/minister-disabled-no-shortage-jobs

Minister for Disabled, or the new Tebbitt, Maria Miller,


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2012)

yardbird said:


> If they try to suggest the diaper route, or any other nonsense, then I shall involve my solicitor as well as my GP and MS nurse.
> 
> Demeaning, degrading and cruel.
> European Court of Human Rights ?
> I'm not altogether joking!


 
It's like the crap (pardon the pun) that DLA EMPS come out with regarding commodes. Fuck off. No way am I going to actually take a shit in the same room as someone else, and subject them to those sights, sounds and smells. It's not the same thing as getting their help to clean yourself *after* using a loo. DLA is supposed to help me live a "normal" life, and "normal" people don't take shits in their bedrooms and then try to get back to sleep with the aroma of their dung tickling their nose.

As for adult nappies, why should you be subjected to the physical issues regarding having your own bodily waste smeared around the skin inside the nappy, let alone the psychological issues, just for *their* convenience?

Fuck 'em, fuck the horse they rode in on, and the bloodstock merchant that sold 'em the horse.


----------



## culder (Feb 6, 2012)

I've just received a copy of my ATOS medical assessment. I've never seen such bollocks in all my life. The lazy cow c-and-p'd some paragraphs several times, ignored some of what I'd said, invented things I hadn't said, and outright lied about a few other things.

What a complete bitch.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 6, 2012)

Legal challenges to their 'decisions' may be a worthwhile avenue to pursue, maybe if a load of people got together, a class action or something? (not being a legal expert I don't know how realistic this is).


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## culder (Feb 6, 2012)

Well I'll be talking to Welfare Rights about it, without a doubt.

In the meantime, I'm happy to risk being arrested for libel (which it isn't) by stating on the internet that Ms Sarah Wilson, Registered Nurse, is a lying cow.


----------



## treelover (Feb 6, 2012)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept

its not just here, Germany which many see as a decent social democratic country have an appalling welfare regime which was brought in by the NL govt there in 2004


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hartz_concept
> 
> its not just here, Germany which many see as a decent social democratic country have an appalling welfare regime which was brought in by the NL govt there in 2004


 
May well be "appalling", but the reality of it is quite a bit less punitive and denigrating than ours is becoming.


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## treelover (Feb 6, 2012)

How so , do explain, for instance harz officers can intervene in a family's purchasing decisions, such as what food they buy..


----------



## culder (Feb 6, 2012)

Bloody hell.


----------



## culder (Feb 6, 2012)

Erm, am I the only one who thinks that Capitalism is a load of shite?


----------



## Jackobi (Feb 6, 2012)

culder said:


> Erm, am I the only one who thinks that Capitalism is a load of shite?


 
No, I fucking hate it with a passion.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 6, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'there is no shortage of jobs
> Maria Miller blames unemployment on people's unwillingness to apply for work'
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/feb/06/minister-disabled-no-shortage-jobs
> 
> Minister for Disabled, or the new Tebbitt, Maria Miller,


lol.400000 vacancies and only about three million or more chasing them!
Front page of local paper today some guy who had a kidney transplant unable to claim ESA. Letters section full of drivelling idiots claiming it's brilliant we're throwing people off benefits. Wish they were the ones explaining to the ill guy why he's got to go back to work before he's fit enough to earn money or starve and die.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 6, 2012)

yardbird said:


> If they try to suggest the diaper route, or any other nonsense, then I shall involve my solicitor as well as my GP and MS nurse.
> 
> Demeaning, degrading and cruel.
> European Court of Human Rights ?
> I'm not altogether joking!


The real reason cameron wants to get rid of HRA. All this talk about foreign criminals rights to a family cat (or whatever) a smokescreen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2012)

treelover said:


> How so , do explain, for instance harz officers can intervene in a family's purchasing decisions, such as what food they buy..


 
Harz IV gives the power to do so, but it's very seldom ever exercised, except _in extremis_, for example where an alcoholic parent may be spunking the money to feed the entire family on booze for themselves. I don't agree with the principle of interference, but when it's only used in order to protect the health of an entire family from the actions of one person, and the actions that Harz officials can take are circumscribed through the Basic Law, then it's not quite as awful as you're making out.
They can't, unlike over here, arbitrarily stop your benefit without providing hard evidence that you've transgressed work-seeking arrangements, for example.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 6, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Harz IV gives the power to do so, but it's very seldom ever exercised, except _in extremis_, for example where an alcoholic parent may be spunking the money to feed the entire family on booze for themselves. I don't agree with the principle of interference, but when it's only used in order to protect the health of an entire family from the actions of one person, and the actions that Harz officials can take are circumscribed through the Basic Law, then it's not quite as awful as you're making out.
> They can't, unlike over here, arbitrarily stop your benefit without providing hard evidence that you've transgressed work-seeking arrangements, for example.


 
Was there any truth to the story about that woman who was threatened with having her benefits stopped unless she accepted a job in sex-work?


----------



## audiotech (Feb 6, 2012)

The new PIP criteria is full of crap for someone with bowel disease:




> ...must experience a "full and uncontrolled evacuation of the bowel" at least once a month.


http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.com/2012/02/brilliant-sam-barnett-cormack-has-been.html


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Was there any truth to the story about that woman who was threatened with having her benefits stopped unless she accepted a job in sex-work?


 
Apparently, the story was based on a woman not ruling "sex work" out, and therefore being pointed toward jobs in the sex industry. However, it's not compulsory to have to consider such jobs, even if you don't rule them out.


----------



## audiotech (Feb 6, 2012)

epetition



> Stop and review the cuts to benefits and services which are falling disproportionately on disabled people, their carers and families.


http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968


----------



## yardbird (Feb 6, 2012)

My MP is Nicolas Soames, I'll book myself to go to one of his surgeries.


Then I'll shit myself.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 6, 2012)

audiotech said:


> epetition
> 
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/20968


Hey 
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ich-are-falling-disproportionately-on.284042/


----------



## yardbird (Feb 6, 2012)

I have pics to show that Lees House in Brighton where I went a few years ago for an assessment was/is not fit for purpose.
When I went, the entrance for us punters was down a few steps into a small area in front of the entrance door. NOT the entrance that the staff use.
Strewn with ciggie butts and an empty wine bottle, I found a used sharp ( you can tuck away and shoot up ) which I took, wrapped in newspaper and disposed of at my doctors.
The entryphone mike you just wouldn't want to get near. 
Clearly this area was seldom if ever cleaned.
Once in the entrance corridor the signs to indicate where to go were less than A4 and propped against the skirting board. In front was a fire escape door for an upstairs area (not ATOS) with a smashed a fire exit lock falling off.
Then the entry to their area with two fire doors going in, both jammed open.
This is totally illegal as they are fire trap doors, meant to contain any fire for a designated time.
When I went to reception I said this to them.
"It's so hot and we need to get some air"
Knowing about these things, I made it clear that they COULD NOT jam open fire doors. 
They wanted the silly old bloke to shut up and sit down.
I was firm. 

Point being that info about that sort of thing would be very interesting.
Later I had to go to the Croydon office.
Two badged up members of staff around to the side of the front door having a ciggie. Standing on the property in front of a sign saying "this is private property and the owners forbid smoking.

All this may seem minor, but not if anyone else finds bad and unhealthy practice like above and I can create a dossier. 
There is more than one way to skin a cat!


----------



## yardbird (Feb 6, 2012)

We can cause them real problems if their housekeeping is as bad elsewhere as above.
Something that we could attack and nobody would disagree.
Health professional's grubby premisses


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2012)

culder said:


> I've just received a copy of my ATOS medical assessment. I've never seen such bollocks in all my life. The lazy cow c-and-p'd some paragraphs several times, ignored some of what I'd said, invented things I hadn't said, and outright lied about a few other things.
> 
> What a complete bitch.


 In her defence, and I'd rather not defend such people, the software is set to disregard anything put in as text in some boxes, and because the software is designed to generate the report using set sentence parts and words, depending on what she chose the report will be bollocks.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Feb 7, 2012)

Spartacus Report.

by Sam Barnett-Cormack @narco_sam 


Proposed PIP Regulations
An unofficial simplified summary of the second draft regulations Large Print pdf

Standard layout

Jeez I thought IDS and Fraud said this was going to get simpler...!!


----------



## yardbird (Feb 7, 2012)

ATOS have no sense (okay, so we all know this already)

As of yesterday I'm now 64, I've got MS etc.
It cannot be cost effective for another assessment if it happens in the next 12 months - the only winner is ATOS, 'cos then I'll be an OAP.


----------



## culder (Feb 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> In her defence, and I'd rather not defend such people, the software is set to disregard anything put in as text in some boxes, and because the software is designed to generate the report using set sentence parts and words, depending on what she chose the report will be bollocks.


 
Well, I'm really talking about the bits where there _is_ text. Eg she stated that I didn't take my medication with me. I did, but she never asked to see it. Then there's the physical examination relating to a condition I never claimed to have, but she says I did claim it. Also she says that I never needed prompting. I needed prompting throughout.

The whole thing is a sham.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2012)

yardbird said:


> My MP is Nicolas Soames, I'll book myself to go to one of his surgeries.
> 
> 
> Then I'll shit myself.


 
Sir, I like your style!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2012)

yardbird said:


> ATOS have no sense (okay, so we all know this already)
> 
> As of yesterday I'm now 64, I've got MS etc.
> It cannot be cost effective for another assessment if it happens in the next 12 months - the only winner is ATOS, 'cos then I'll be an OAP.


 
As you say, the only winner is ATOS.
What does it say about those that sit in Parliament that this "payment farming" that ATOS carries out is so obvious, and yet so obviously not tackled by legislation? To me it says, louder than plain words could, that the two are in cahoots to destroy the welfare system as a meaningful provider of a social safety net, and to impose some kind of quasi-Victorian solution where claimants will end up doing the latter-day equivalent of picking oakum for their daily gruel.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As you say, the only winner is ATOS.
> What does it say about those that sit in Parliament that this "payment farming" that ATOS carries out is so obvious, and yet so obviously not tackled by legislation? To me it says, louder than plain words could, that the two are in cahoots to destroy the welfare system as a meaningful provider of a social safety net, and to impose some kind of quasi-Victorian solution where claimants will end up doing the latter-day equivalent of picking oakum for their daily gruel.


Have you seen the sharp rise in advertising by unum and others for private insurance and private healthcare. It's epic levels.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Have you seen the sharp rise in advertising by unum and others for private insurance and private healthcare. It's epic levels.


 
Yep, and it's not like we didn't already get a sniff of this back when Frank Field was told to "think the unthinkable", and those sharks were the ones doing the most circling.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 7, 2012)

Frank Field's name is on my list. Cunt.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> Have you seen the sharp rise in advertising by unum and others for private insurance and private healthcare. It's epic levels.


 Yes, although I took a look at the unum website and all it says is 'think about income insurance' but it doesn't seem to tell you how to get ot or where to ask. Wouldn't be surprised if the products start to appear....


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> As you say, the only winner is ATOS.
> What does it say about those that sit in Parliament that this "payment farming" that ATOS carries out is so obvious, and yet so obviously not tackled by legislation? To me it says, louder than plain words could, that the two are in cahoots to destroy the welfare system as a meaningful provider of a social safety net, and to impose some kind of quasi-Victorian solution where claimants will end up doing the latter-day equivalent of picking oakum for their daily gruel.


 Atos payments for the software over the whole life of the contract is well over £800million (either 7 or 10 years). All paid for by the UK tax payer who won't even own the software by the end of the contract. Now that's payment farming.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Atos payments for the software over the whole life of the contract is well over £800million (either 7 or 10 years). All paid for by the UK tax payer who won't even own the software by the end of the contract. Now that's payment farming.


 
So, over three quarters of a billion pounds paid to them in order for them to provide a testing system that doesn't work, and results in nearly half of all cases put through the system being taken to tribunal?
Wonder which of the current bunch of Cabinet cunts will be on the ATOS board in 5-10 years.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, over three quarters of a billion pounds paid to them in order for them to provide a testing system that doesn't work, and results in nearly half of all cases put through the system being taken to tribunal?
> Wonder which of the current bunch of Cabinet cunts will be on the ATOS board in 5-10 years.


 Yes. Beyond disgraceful.

I'm really interested to see if I can find out how much companies like Atos and Serco are getting. If the Atos sum is typical over the life of the contract, it could be substantial. Add that sum to what companies like vodafone et al should have been paying in tax and the UK taxpayer could conceivably be lining the pockets of private enterprises at the expense of some of the most vulnerable in our society.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2012)

nine million divvi for Emma Harrison, no outcry from the press about that...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes. Beyond disgraceful.
> 
> I'm really interested to see if I can find out how much companies like Atos and Serco are getting. If the Atos sum is typical over the life of the contract, it could be substantial. Add that sum to what companies like vodafone et al should have been paying in tax and the UK taxpayer could conceivably be lining the pockets of private enterprises at the expense of some of the most vulnerable in our society.


 
From what I've been able to make out from the Benefits & Work forum, the penalties for a high "miss" rate are low too, so there's little incentive for them to change their shoddy practices/up their game.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 8, 2012)

treelover said:


> nine million divvi for Emma Harrison, no outcry from the press about that...


 
To be fair, a "£9 million divvi" is a pretty good description of the cunt.


----------



## treelover (Feb 9, 2012)

'A4e got welfare-to-work contract despite 'abysmal' record, MPs say

Public accounts committee criticises decision'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/09/a4e-welfare-to-work-contract

MP's savage A4E, the public accounts comittee is very powerful, the dam is breaking....

btw, EH got 87% of the company's £11m dividends last year.


----------



## treelover (Feb 9, 2012)

Its very revealing what the supposedly 'neutral' DWP civil servants have to say in that article, the DWP has been out of control for a long time..


----------



## Psychonaut (Feb 9, 2012)

man in coma found fit for work



> Yep- it has finally happened (or near enough).
> Client’s husband is in hospital in a coma. He was sent ESA50. Client contacted DWP to explain situation and was asked to obtain letter from hospital confirming he is in a coma. Did so. Was told to send it to ATOS rather than local BDC. Did so. Husband has now received decision letter- yep, as he has failed to return the ESA50 without good cause and is therefore capable of work and no longer entitled to ESA….
> You couldn’t make it up.


http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forums/viewthread/2496/


----------



## treelover (Feb 10, 2012)

'http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...r-gets-8-6m-ONE-YEAR-bulk-comes-taxpayer.html'

Emma Harrison now in the Mails sights, she is quite a fragile personality in some ways, (like Branson she wants to be loved) so this will hit her hard in many ways..

I wonder if Milliband will defend her, seeing as they(NL) basically made her..

oh, and Learn Direct was another cash cow for its directors..


----------



## culder (Feb 11, 2012)

Sorry if these have already been posted - my concentration isn't what it used to be.

First - disabled people are the latest target for abuse by the ignorant -


http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...d-people-abuse-peoples-panel?CMP=EMCSOCEML657

Second, some excellent points made here -




Reminds me of a joke - A banker, a Daily Mail reader, and a benefits claimant are sitting round a table, and there are 12 biscuits. The banker takes 11 biscuits and says to the Daily Mail reader, "Watch out, that scrounger is after your biscuit."


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## frogwoman (Feb 12, 2012)

> Emma Harrison now in the Mails sights, she is quite a fragile personality in some ways, (like Branson she wants to be loved) so this will hit her hard in many ways..


 
Tough shit. She shouldn't have made a living out of fucking peoples lives up if she didn#t want to be criticised for it should she.


----------



## culder (Feb 13, 2012)

_Sigh_.

At the weekend I got a letter about Housing/Council Tax benefit, saying I will be awarded these benefits for the period 13th Feb to 26th March.

My IB/IS stopped on the 8th of Feb, so yet another phone call had to be made today. The person I spoke to said she'd send a message asking for a reconsideration regarding the 9th - 12th Feb inclusive, and hopefully that should be fixed.

She also said that the end-date of 26th March is because my claim is being assessed on the basis of Nil income (because I haven't had written confirmation of any income I'm going to receive in the future) and they can only do that for a few weeks. If there's been no notification about my income by the 26th, they'll contact me again to ask if anything has changed, but with any luck I'll have had something in writing by then, and the HB people will have been notified as well.

So it should turn out okay, but why can't _anything_ be straightforward?


----------



## yardbird (Feb 17, 2012)

Apologies if this has been mentioned already.

The new 111 number that will take over from NHS Direct and "none urgent" 999 calls, goes through to operators who use a piece of software to help diagnose an ailment.
I was just wondering is the software anything to do with ATOS and/or Unum ?


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 17, 2012)

culder said:


> But why can't _anything_ be straightforward?


 It should be but the DWP are incompetant.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 17, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The new 111 number that will take over from NHS Direct and "none urgent" 999 calls, goes through to operators who use a piece of software to help diagnose an ailment.
> I was just wondering is the software anything to do with ATOS and/or Unum ?


 
Now that is a scary thought.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2012)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...amerons-attacks-vulnerable-needy-stopped.html

Holy shit.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 17, 2012)

nazi comparisons in the daily mail ...


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 17, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Apologies if this has been mentioned already.
> 
> The new 111 number that will take over from NHS Direct and "none urgent" 999 calls, goes through to operators who use a piece of software to help diagnose an ailment.
> I was just wondering is the software anything to do with ATOS and/or Unum ?


Could be just a digital form of the diagnostic handbook cuurently used - Corax is the man who knows more.


----------



## ymu (Feb 17, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...amerons-attacks-vulnerable-needy-stopped.html
> 
> Holy shit.


Middle England waking up. Jolly good.


----------



## Quartz (Feb 18, 2012)

Well, the wives of Middle England. Who form the backbone of the Tories. The 'Blue Rinse' brigade.


----------



## culder (Feb 18, 2012)

I'm astonished to read something like that in the Daily Mail!


----------



## Greebo (Feb 18, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm astonished to read something like that in the Daily Mail!


It's almost restored my faith in humanity.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 18, 2012)




----------



## yardbird (Feb 18, 2012)

Personal thing again.
I'm sending a demand for a home visit with my ESA50 - backed up by everybody involved.
I will have a witness/helper when they come.
My sister in law is a retired GP,  I wonder if she'll do it ?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 18, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Personal thing again.
> I'm sending a demand for a home visit with my ESA50 - backed up by everybody involved.
> I will have a witness/helper when they come.
> My sister in law is a retired GP, I wonder if she'll do it ?


 
It'd be very good if she did, and introduced herself to the visiting medically-trained person "hi, I'm Dr. **********, Don't mind me, I'm just here to give yardie moral support".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 18, 2012)

Could you also prevail on her to write contemporaneous notes, yardie?


----------



## yardbird (Feb 18, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Could you also prevail on her to write contemporaneous notes, yardie?


I should think so


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2012)

I think that's a great idea, yardbird.


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## WouldBe (Feb 19, 2012)

I bet the ATOS knob runs a mile when they find there's a doctor in the house. 


My sister threatened to take her solicitor with her to one ATOS assessment. They haven't bothered to contact her again and that was 5+ years ago.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's a great idea, yardbird.


 
If yardie's s-i-l *does* manage to take contemporaneous notes, it could very handy for him indeed, _apropos_ of any need to apply for review.

Now, if only she could convince the "medically-trained personnel" conducting the interview to review and sign her notes...


----------



## yardbird (Feb 19, 2012)

Maybe sil plus brother, who is a retired dentist. He can take the notes - he's also a bit of a geek, so will no doubt want to ask questions about Lima and drop-down-menus etc.
I'm liking the sound of this idea.


----------



## yardbird (Feb 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now, if only she could convince the "medically-trained personnel" conducting the interview to review and sign her notes...


Politely insist.
In as much that in such circumstances this would be standard practice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Politely insist.
> In as much that in such circumstances this would be standard practice.


 
Well, quite! And if the ATOSser has nothing to hide, then surely they have nothing to fear?


----------



## catinthehat (Feb 20, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/feb/20/welfare-work-contracts-fraud-claims


----------



## yardbird (Feb 20, 2012)

Update on what I mentioned above:
Just spoken to my retired GP sil.
Oh boy is she up for it!
Firstly she wants to make sure that I'm ok and treated ok.
She objects intensely to "medical professionals" and says that the whole system is an insult to her profession.
My bro will come as well and take notes and question the computer/Lima stuff.

I've just got to hope they are not on their hols.

SIL is looking forward to asking if they know anything at all about MS


----------



## Quartz (Feb 20, 2012)

frogwoman said:


>


 
Don't think for an instant that that doesn't apply to all the other parties.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 20, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Update on what I mentioned above:
> Just spoken to my retired GP sil.
> <snip>
> SIL is looking forward to asking if they know anything at all about MS


Very glad to hear it, I do hope that your sil and bro are available and have fun on the day.  IMHO it's just plain wrong that anyone should have to go through this.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 20, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Update on what I mentioned above:
> Just spoken to my retired GP sil.
> Oh boy is she up for it!
> Firstly she wants to make sure that I'm ok and treated ok.
> ...


 

You realise that there's a 90% chance that the "medical professional" will refuse to conduct the "examination" though, don't you (they're yellower than a piss stain on porcelain)? 

If that's the case, please do/get your bro or s-i-l to do the following things:

1) Phone up the number on the letter giving you the time/date of your test
2) Speak to someone and inform them that the "medical professional" refused to conduct the test, and give them the reason(s) (i.e. you dared to have a witness there who was incidentally a doctor).
3) Get the name, or the christian name and desk number of the person you speak to, and make a note of it.

In case you're wondering why, it's so that if (when?) the "medical professional" tells any big fat lies (they're very good at this, even the ones who've taken the Hippocratic oath), you have some proof besides your own word and the words of your witnesses, which they will *not* take heed of, believe the voice of experience!

Good luck, _mon ami_!


----------



## yardbird (Feb 20, 2012)

SIL was very clear about how all this business is bad for my health and thus how it breaches duty of care.


----------



## Quartz (Feb 20, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Update on what I mentioned above:
> Just spoken to my retired GP sil.
> Oh boy is she up for it!


 
Excellent!


----------



## culder (Feb 20, 2012)

I'm really looking forward to what happens with that, Yardbird!

The Express is joining in -

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/303008/Scandal-of-fit-to-work-appraisals

Also in yesterday's Observer, the third letter down, headed 'Maria Miller must go now' -

http://www.guardian.co.uk/theobserver/2012/feb/19/observer-letters-welfare-reform


----------



## Quartz (Feb 20, 2012)

frogwoman said:


>


 
Just to add to my last post, you do realise that Atos were given the job by Labour?  Doesn't stop the Tories being responsible, of course - they're in power now - but it does go to show that they're all shits.


----------



## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

of course i realise it.


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## creak (Feb 20, 2012)

yardbird said:


> To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._
> 
> 
> That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?


Is this true? I've only heard it as a rumour before, never seen it confirmed. Any sources?


----------



## yardbird (Feb 20, 2012)

C





creak said:


> Is this true? I've only heard it as a rumour before, never seen it confirmed. Any sources?


 
I'm racking my brains for what the source/s were - I'll search about.
Still, just think of all that money bouncing back and forth. There is probably a handling cost from ATOS


----------



## Anonymous1 (Feb 21, 2012)

This was a reply to a FOI rqeuest, 

Dear Mr Connolly,

Thank you for your Freedom of Information request dated 30 June 2011
that was received by Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) Adelphi and
forwarded on 1 July for response by the DWP Commercial Management of
Medical Services Freedom of Information Officer. 

In your email you asked to be provided with information answering the
following question:-
Please tell me whether financial incentives are offered or paid to Atos
Healthcare to provide reports which lead to Employment & Support
Allowance claims being rejected or disallowed, or awards removed.
In answer to your question neither Atos Healthcare nor the Healthcare
Professionals (HCP) who compile medical reports receive bonuses where
the DWP Decision Makers (DM) have disallowed benefit.

Atos Healthcare provide the relevant reports for DWP DMs but play no
part in the actual decision making process and I can confirm that
payment to Atos Healthcare for the services provided is not related in
any way to the outcome of individual medical examinations.
If you have any queries about this letter please contact me quoting the
reference number above. 
Yours sincerely, 

DWP Central FoI Team

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/whether_atos_are_paid_incentives



Good response left below the reply.

*  Mr Taylor left an annotation (29 July 2011)*

DWP said: "Atos Healthcare provide the relevant reports for DWP DMs but play no part in the actual decision making process and I can confirm that 
payment to Atos Healthcare for the services provided is not related in 
any way to the outcome of individual medical examinations" 
So the 40% of decisions overturned on appeal are solely down to the incompetence of DWP Decision Makers? But this phenomenon has only become apparent since the state sponsored terror Atos have been inflicting began. Not very convincing is it? 

And if payment to Atos for the services provided is not related in any way to the outcome of individual medical examinations, why not? As the Decision Makers are considering the reports in making their decisions. If the reports are inaccurate, which 40% of them must be, why are Atos being paid for them?


----------



## ymu (Feb 21, 2012)

Should have asked whether there are any targets, benchmarks or other guideline rates of refusal in the contract.

In fact, the contract should be published.


----------



## yardbird (Feb 22, 2012)

ymu said:


> In fact, the contract should be published.


Yes indeed
Freedom of info ?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Yes indeed
> Freedom of info ?


They'll most likely deny publication on the grounds of commercial confidetiality, but it's worth a shot.

I'd love to see the contract for the use of the software, if it's separate from the reports service contract. I want to know who agreed to pay nearly a billion pounds of tax payer money for software we won't even own.


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 22, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They'll most likely deny publication on the grounds of commercial confidetiality, but it's worth a shot.
> 
> I'd love to see the contract for the use of the software, if it's separate from the reports service contract. I want to know who agreed to pay nearly a billion pounds of tax payer money for software we won't even own.


 I'd like to know how on earth a piece of software can cost £1b.


----------



## culder (Feb 22, 2012)

_Atos Healthcare ... play no_
_ part in the actual decision making process_

That'll be why my medical report states -

"I advise that a return to work could be considered within 3 months." And the reason given - "The ESA50, history and examination indicates that the client may return to work in the shorter term."


----------



## yardbird (Feb 22, 2012)

culder said:


> _Atos Healthcare ... play no_
> _ part in the actual decision making process_


They design the software that culls those who haven't had the 'right' boxes ticked and they do that cull with no human intervention.
This means that ATOS make decisions on those they have examined.


----------



## culder (Feb 22, 2012)

Exactly.


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## culder (Feb 22, 2012)

I've been making notes, in a word doc, of everything that's happened since all this began - every letter and phone call I've received, every phone call I've had to make and stuff I've had to post. So far it's been 6 weeks since the so-called assessment, and already I'm up to page 4, even though my notes are very brief. I suspect it'll end up being a very long word doc.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 29, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> I'd like to know how on earth a piece of software can cost £1b.


Exactly.
Remember, it's not something the taxpayer will own, this is the cost of renting the software.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You realise that there's a 90% chance that the "medical professional" will refuse to conduct the "examination" though, don't you (they're yellower than a piss stain on porcelain)?
> 
> If that's the case, please do/get your bro or s-i-l to do the following things:
> 
> ...


 
Can you use a voice recorder? What are the legalities of that if you of course tell them that you are going to record them (and even maybe if not)?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 29, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Can you use a voice recorder? What are the legalities of that if you of course tell them that you are going to record them (and even maybe if not)?


 
They have objections to recording which are spurious, but which they attempt to enforce by informing you that you'l have to pay to have your equipment properly calibrated or some such bollocks. Legally, there's a consent issue (the individual has to consent to be recorded. Surreptitious recording can't be used as evidence at tribunal) that they also use, but which I believe can be set aside with a well-placed "if the medical professional has nothing to hide, then what have they got to fear?".


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 29, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They have objections to recording which are spurious, but which they attempt to enforce by informing you that you'l have to pay to have your equipment properly calibrated or some such bollocks. Legally, there's a consent issue (the individual has to consent to be recorded. Surreptitious recording can't be used as evidence at tribunal) that they also use, but which I believe can be set aside with a well-placed "if the medical professional has nothing to hide, then what have they got to fear?".


 
Yes surely you can just say, "I would just like to record you so that your final findings corroborate with what is said here today should I need to see a solicitor. As for being correctly calibrated you could ask the interviewer at the beginning of the recording to tell them the exact time and do so also at the end, so that nothing could be seen to be edited out or in. Even better, use a video camera.

Why or how could they legally object? I can't speak to someone to book tickets on an airline or talk to the tax office without agreeing to be recorded.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 29, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Yes surely you can just say, "I would just like to record you so that your final findings corroborate with what is said here today should I need to see a solicitor. As for being correctly calibrated you could ask the interviewer at the beginning of the recording to tell them the exact time and do so also at the end, so that nothing could be seen to be edited out or in. Even better, use a video camera.
> 
> Why or how could they legally object? I can't speak to someone to book tickets on an airline or talk to the tax office without agreeing to be recorded.


 
When I've had visits from "examining medical practitioners" (EMPs) with regard to renewing my Disability Living Allowance, I've always asked whether I can record the interview on audio-tape, and it's always been granted, but those have been doctors visiting me. These Atos people are merely "medical professionals". In other words, they *may* be doctors, but they could equally be nurses or physios, who tend to be a bit more insecure about the state of their knowledge, and more likely to regard a request to record them as combative or insulting.

As for legal objection, your acquiescence to being recorded is implicit as soon as you continue the phonecall after being told that "this call may be recorded for blah blah blah purposes". You *have no choice* but to acquiesce if you wish to conduct business with them. That's not the case for an individual tasked to examine you. They have the right to consent to recording or not (unfortunately), and we (the ones getting interviewed) don't have any leverage that can render things differently.


----------



## yardbird (Feb 29, 2012)

You have to have a sync-dual recorder of a particular type (??) which they apparently supply (??again) and it has to be "calibrated" , thus I think a no-no for a home visit, which I shall require.
I do have an old Teak Studio Dual cassette, but that (although v good quality) is not acceptable.
Nor will they go for "but I can can operate a 16 channel desk".
I will record it without them knowing, to check notes taken.


----------



## culder (Mar 1, 2012)

I don't blame you, Yardbird.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 1, 2012)

ATOS RECORDING NEWS!
I just spoke to ATOS (18 mins of 'your call is important to us'  )
I was wanting to know about them coming to me.
Then I asked about what the situation was if I wished to record the assessment interview.
Well goodness me, all has changed 
When I'm contacted re my home visit I just ask for it to be recorded. They will arrive with a recorder that will make three copies. One for me, one for them and one for DWP!
There is no charge for this service.
I don't know about when you go to them, but I think that you would just have to request in advance.
I'm amazed.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2012)

yardbird said:


> ATOS RECORDING NEWS!
> I just spoke to ATOS (18 mins of 'your call is important to us'  )
> I was wanting to know about them coming to me.
> Then I asked about what the situation was if I wished to record the assessment interview.
> ...


Wow! I wonder what's prompted the change?

Well done Yardbird


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Surreptitious recording can't be used as evidence at tribunal


 Well the tribunal is getting a transcript of my recording wether they like it or not. 

Mind, McMillan nurses and charities concerned with strokes and altzheimers all recommend the use of tape recordings if you suffer memory loss (wether caused by brain damage or by distraction i.e. pain). As this tape recording is for personal use it doesn't need to meet ATOS' criteria and I believe you don't need to get the permission of anyone who gets recorded in the process. 

As it's used as an aide a memoire the tribunal are going to get to 'hear' extracts from it anyway.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 5, 2012)

Important ATOS recording update.

 I have spoken at length today and can confirm that if you request to have your assessment recorded then they will do it.
YOU HAVE TO REQUEST IT
This is for home visits and if you go to them as well.
I have been told this clearly and on two occasions now.
DEMAND IT 'cos they sure as shit won't offer it.
If anyone wants it, this number gets you thu to ATOS:
0800 2888777
Where you can get conformation of what I've posted.
I would strongly advise anyone awaiting an assessment to do this.
If they say they can't do it then refer them to HO and DEMAND IT !!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 5, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Important ATOS recording update.
> 
> I have spoken at length today and can confirm that if you request to have your assessment recorded then they will do it.
> YOU HAVE TO REQUEST IT
> ...


 
Great info yardbird, thanks for finding that out 

Nice one.


----------



## culder (Mar 8, 2012)

Hello everyone.

Yesterday I got a thickish brown envelope, and immediately thought, "Oh, it'll be the documents they're supposed to be sending me, about my appeal".

Nope. It was another copy of my medical assessment, with no covering letter to explain why they were sending it.

_Sigh._


----------



## culder (Mar 8, 2012)

Oh -

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ent-cuts-target-disabled-workers-7544744.html

So you can't have a job, and they don't want you to have benefits. Sick bastards.


----------



## Kate Hillier (Mar 8, 2012)

When I had an Assessment some time ago. The ATOS guy told me in no uncertain terms that I was not allowed to make notes of the Interview/Process.
 My Strategy then would be to use my FIRE Professional Recorder App on my Iphone 3GS to secretly record the Interview! I have no idea how this idea sounds to my new pals at U75 (subject to normal rules of sussing out, lurking etc).


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## yardbird (Mar 8, 2012)

Kate H
The ATOS said you couldn't take notes?
He should be locked up - that has never been so!

Welcome


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## Greebo (Mar 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Kate H
> The ATOS said you couldn't take notes?
> He should be locked up - that has never been so!
> 
> Welcome


Agreed, I've always been allowed to take notes.  And IMHO allowing notes and/or recording is fair when the person being given the medical may be too anxious or confused to clearly rememeber what happened.


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## culder (Mar 17, 2012)

A few days ago I got this year's Council Tax bill, and they want 10p for the whole year (although my income has dropped by around 30%).

Then a day or so later I got two letters from Housing (I'm a Council tenant). The first one said that from the beginning of April I need to pay rent of 1p per week. The second letter was exactly the same.

So they've already spent more than my annual rent and CT combined, just by sending the letters.


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## equationgirl (Mar 17, 2012)

culder said:


> A few days ago I got this year's Council Tax bill, and they want 10p for the whole year (although my income has dropped by around 30%).
> 
> Then a day or so later I got two letters from Housing (I'm a Council tenant). The first one said that from the beginning of April I need to pay rent of 1p per week. The second letter was exactly the same.
> 
> So they've already spent more than my annual rent and CT combined, just by sending the letters.


I never understand why the same department sends the same letter out more than once, or worse, why they send two or more letters all saying different things.

Good news about the bills though


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## audiotech (Mar 17, 2012)

The councils welfare rights department can't provide advocacy to support people at tribunal hearings I've been informed. The only option available is to have copy of papers from the tribunal service sent to their offices, who will, after reading the documentation, offer advice, usually over the phone and that's it.


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## culder (Mar 18, 2012)

Hm - they've told me they'll set up a meeting with me once I've got those documents, audiotech.

EG - Not really good news about those bills - normally I pay zero!


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## WouldBe (Mar 18, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Kate H
> The ATOS said you couldn't take notes?
> He should be locked up - that has never been so!
> 
> Welcome


 When my sister accompanied a friend to an ATOS assessment and took out a notepad the nurse went ballistic. Demanding a copy of whatever my sister wrote.


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## WouldBe (Mar 18, 2012)

culder said:


> A few days ago I got this year's Council Tax bill, and they want 10p for the whole year (although my income has dropped by around 30%).
> 
> Then a day or so later I got two letters from Housing (I'm a Council tenant). The first one said that from the beginning of April I need to pay rent of 1p per week. The second letter was exactly the same.
> 
> So they've already spent more than my annual rent and CT combined, just by sending the letters.


 Write back and ask them to remind you when you owe them a tenner. They'll have forgotten by then.


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2012)

culder said:


> Hm - they've told me they'll set up a meeting with me once I've got those documents, audiotech.
> 
> EG - Not really good news about those bills - normally I pay zero!


True - but at least it's only nominal amounts rather than pounds and pounds.


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Write back and ask them to remind you when you owe them a tenner. They'll have forgotten by then.


But equally, you could pay by sending the 1p pieces taped to a piece of card. No point in ruynning up arrears


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## culder (Mar 18, 2012)

I'm tempted to wait and see how much they want to spend on taking me to court for it...


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## audiotech (Mar 18, 2012)

culder said:


> Hm - they've told me they'll set up a meeting with me once I've got those documents, audiotech.



I suppose it will vary from area to area, but where I am it appears they're overwhelmed. The person I spoke to was sympathetic, but unable to affect what is. I might manage to arrange a home visit, but for the tribunal It looks as though I'm on my own. This for the second time, with no representation. Although it annoys me that basic provision is not there to give much in the way of support, as an individual up against the machine that is the DWP, this is not something I've not experienced before. Fairness? Do me a favour. The whole system is stacked against ordinary people, who've very little and don't really want very much. Meanwhile, Osbourne is flagging cutting the 50p tax rate in the forthcoming budget and refusing to countenance a wealth tax on those with over a £1 million pound property's. Hypocrits like Geldoff, avoiding stamp duty, registering their multiple property's in favourable tax havens I hold in particular contempt. 'Send us your fooking money' to coin a phrase.


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## audiotech (Mar 18, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm tempted to wait and see how much they want to spend on taking me to court for it...



just not worth it. Let's face it it's not their money, It's ours they'll be spending to hound you for the penny's.


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm tempted to wait and see how much they want to spend on taking me to court for it...


Fun as the idea might be, IMHO you just don't need the hassle of needlessly being taken to court.


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## stuff_it (Mar 18, 2012)

yardbird said:


> You have to have a sync-dual recorder of a particular type (??) which they apparently supply (??again) and it has to be "calibrated" , thus I think a no-no for a home visit, which I shall require.
> I do have an old Teak Studio Dual cassette, but that (although v good quality) is not acceptable.
> Nor will they go for "but I can can operate a 16 channel desk".
> I will record it without them knowing, to check notes taken.


TBF if you tell them you can operate a 16 channel desk they will declare you fit anyway.


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## culder (Mar 19, 2012)

Greebo and Audio -

True enough. I wouldn't actually do it, but you can't help wondering...


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## WouldBe (Mar 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But equally, you could pay by sending the 1p pieces taped to a piece of card. No point in ruynning up arrears


 Just write them a cheque for 11p each week.


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## Greebo (Mar 19, 2012)

culder said:


> Greebo and Audio -
> 
> True enough. I wouldn't actually do it, but you can't help wondering...


 

You have no idea how many sleepless hours I've spent fantasising about what I'd do to extremely unhelpful bureaucrats.


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## culder (Mar 19, 2012)

I phoned HB today, and they said there'd been an error and it will be sorted out. They had the wrong amount for my income, apparently.

Fine (once I see it in writing), but it's yet another thing that's been messed about because of ATOS.


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## Mikey77 (Mar 22, 2012)

I need to fill in the form for ESA and have noticed that compared to the same time last year they have removed some of the questions from the mental health section. For example the ones on interacting with other people they have reduced to one question instead of two. I presume this is a way of reducing the points that you can get from your form.

Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year? So for example if I answer "often" where the previous year I said "sometimes" is this likely to work against me??

I am currently having treatment and am seeing a shrink under the local health service so it is possible for me to write slightly different answers compared to what I wrote last year (as might be expected given more issues arise in the treatment), but I have a feeling they might give me a harder time if my answers are different from the last time.


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## audiotech (Mar 22, 2012)

Intriguing.


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## Kate Hillier (Mar 22, 2012)

The last time I had one the guy in no uncertain terms informed me that notetaking was discouraged in the appointment.
 I have just submitted an ESA50 /3/11 and so await my dreaded Appointment.


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## yardbird (Mar 22, 2012)

Kate Hillier said:


> The last time I had one the guy in no uncertain terms informed me that notetaking was discouraged in the appointment.
> I have just submitted an ESA50 /3/11 and so await my dreaded Appointment.


Well this time you can make it clear that you taking notes or you'll nut 'em!
Request recording also.


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## Kate Hillier (Mar 22, 2012)

I have an Iphone app FIRE Professional Recorder.*tempted to do it on the sly as I can just put iphone in pocket!!*


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## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2012)

Kate Hillier said:


> I have an Iphone app FIRE Professional Recorder.*tempted to do it on the sly as I can just put iphone in pocket!!*


 
Kate - see the latest info on recordings from yardbird's earlier post



yardbird said:


> Important ATOS recording update.
> 
> I have spoken at length today and can confirm that if you request to have your assessment recorded then they will do it.
> YOU HAVE TO REQUEST IT
> ...


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## treelover (Mar 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Intriguing.


 
How can they justify spending public money on these basically political goals, the DWP has been a law unto itself for sometime, i suspect soon they will develop tactics to undermine the campaigners themselves...

This is why more 'able bodied' employed people, etc are needed to support them...


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## culder (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikey77 said:


> I need to fill in the form for ESA and have noticed that compared to the same time last year they have removed some of the questions from the mental health section. For example the ones on interacting with other people they have reduced to one question instead of two. I presume this is a way of reducing the points that you can get from your form.
> 
> Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year? So for example if I answer "often" where the previous year I said "sometimes" is this likely to work against me??
> 
> I am currently having treatment and am seeing a shrink under the local health service so it is possible for me to write slightly different answers compared to what I wrote last year (as might be expected given more issues arise in the treatment), but I have a feeling they might give me a harder time if my answers are different from the last time.


 
I can't be sure, but I don't get the impression that they refer to previous forms. (To be honest, after my own experience, I'm not convinced they refer very much to the current one, either!) I don't think you need to worry too much about this - if your situation has deteriorated, then of course your answers would be different, wouldn't they?

As for the different form - tell me about it! It's disgraceful.It took me weeks to figure out where to mention things that weren't specifically asked about.


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## Mikey77 (Mar 24, 2012)

There was a guide going about on how to fill in the last form, but with the sections being changed and questions being amended I'm not sure what to say. They must be doing it so there are less points to be awarded. I suppose my situation has been worse to some extent. I have nothing to lose by saying so I suppose.


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## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2012)

Mikey77 said:


> There was a guide going about on how to fill in the last form, but with the sections being changed and questions being amended I'm not sure what to say. They must be doing it so there are less points to be awarded. I suppose my situation has been worse to some extent. I have nothing to lose by saying so I suppose.


They have completely changed the way points are awarded, and this time round it's much harder to score points. If you are worse then last time around, answer the questions as best you can with that in mind.


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## audiotech (Mar 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They have completely changed the way points are awarded, and this time round it's much harder to score points.


 
Now, I'm not doubting that the way points are awarded has changed, probably due to criticisms from all quarters, including the select committee looking at this and a host of others, some who've stated that as it has been, it was 'unfit for purpose'. I was last night watching Grayling being grilled on the system in place by the select committee, however, could you give an example of why you think it's much harder to score points this time around? Genuine question.


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## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Now, I'm not doubting that the way points are awarded has changed, probably due to criticisms from all quarters, including the select committee looking at this and a host of others, some who've stated that as it has been, it was 'unfit for purpose'. I was last night watching Grayling being grilled on the system in place by the select committee, however, could you give an example of why you think it's much harder to score points this time around? Genuine question.


 
I did a bit of research on the questionnaire and the ATOS software being used during these assessments back in January to see if it would help anybody going through this on urban. Here is a post I made earlier on the thread:

'The software appears to be a closely guarded secret of the DWP (even though the taxpayer will have paid many millions towards it, it's owned by Atos). Basically the links - including the manual - show the reasons why everyone is getting really wrong reports.

It's the way the software works - it 'simplifies' the assessment by guiding the assessor through drop-down menu choices. If additional information is provided in text boxes, the software disregards it. At the end of the assessment, a report is generated. The software uses to drop down menu choices to generate simple sentences which can then supposedly be used to make an informed decision about benefits.

The problem is, a lot of report generated doesn't make any sense. For example, claimants have produced reports with sentences like 'the claimant has a mild upper limb amputation, but has seen a specialist about this condition' or 'the claimant can walk for 1 minute'.

I thought the links might provide ways to fight the DWP at appeal stage. I hope they are useful.'

So, the software basically stacks the points system against everyone.

There's a lot more about this on a website called 'The abc of ESA', I posted about this site earlier as well: 'On the ABC of ESA website they discuss why it is so hard to get a reasonable assessment. There's been a lot of changes to the scoring used compared to the previous system, and in my opinion it's so heavily weighted towards passing people fit for work no matter what that is has become virtually useless. It may be worth bearing this in mind when completing the form.

Here's the ABC of ESA site: http://www.abcofesa.co.uk/board/index.php

Best of luck.'


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## culder (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm hoping this link works - it's an official DWP guide to the scoring. You need to go down to page 17 for the scores and descriptors.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_177366.pdf


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm hoping this link works - it's an official DWP guide to the scoring. You need to go down to page 17 for the scores and descriptors.
> 
> http://www.direct.gov.uk/prod_consu...disabled/documents/digitalasset/dg_177366.pdf


The link works


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## culder (Mar 25, 2012)

Oh good! I had a bit of trouble with it at first.


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## Mikey77 (Mar 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The link works


 
Thanks for this. It seems that the points are then not dependent on the check boxes, which seem vague in any case - and have been made even more vague this year. 

Taking this one as an example. Last year it read



> *Initiating and sustaining personal action*
> Do you need encouragement from someone else to start and keep on with routine jobs?
> 
> a. Every day
> ...


 
This year the same question reads.



> *Initiating actions*
> Can you manage to plan start and finish daily tasks?
> 
> A. Never
> ...


 
So the above is an example where they have gone for a series of choices that will confuse the person answering so they are unable to be specific. How does "sometimes" compare to "it varies"??

"It varies" could be more often than "sometimes" but there is no way of knowing that?? It seems the only answer is to be very specific and word your answers to get the maximum points. It's OK for us on the internet, but they are designing these forms for people to fill in at home who might not have this kind of information. It is deliberately deceptive and vague.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2012)

Mikey77 said:


> <snip>
> "It varies" could be more often than "sometimes" but there is no way of knowing that?? It seems the only answer is to be very specific and word your answers to get the maximum points. It's OK for us on the internet, but they are designing these forms for people to fill in at home who might not have this kind of information.* It is deliberately deceptive and vague*.


 
Exactly! The form is deliberately biased to ensure a low score, in my opinion. Also, be aware that at the actual assessment, the assessor will be choosing from a set of drop down menus -for example the answer you give could be 'it varies', and that should be what the assessor chooses from the menu choices - but if you say 'I have bad days most of the time' to explain your answer, the assessor can enter that in a text box too.

However, when the software compiles the report, all the information in the text boxes will be ignored. It's the way they've designed the software.

So, the software spits out a report at the end, based on some simple sentences, so it's entirely possible your report could read ' the claimant can manage to start and plan tasks for 10 minutes a day'. It gives out nonsense, which is helpful to nobody.

The DWP should be ashamed of themselves for what they're putting people through, and for the nonsense they've wasted taxpayers money on.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2012)

I've just had a look in the handbook link to see if I can match the scoring to the question you posted and this is the best I can find (scoring doesn't seem to match the questions, which is another issue ):

This is what I found:


13. Initiating and completing personal action (which means planning, organisation, problem solving, prioritising or switching tasks).

Descriptor *Points*
(a) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 sequential personal actions. *15*
(b) Cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions for the majority of the time. *9*
(c) Frequently cannot, due to impaired mental function, reliably initiate or complete at least 2 personal actions. *6*
(d) None of the above apply* 0*

So from the scoring, the options appear to match the old question, not the new one.


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## Mikey77 (Mar 25, 2012)

So the guidelines are outdated as well. They do have June 2011 on them, but that is not good enough. Giving incorrect info on the DWP website is only more dishonest, and shows they don't care. Oh, well. Maybe I'll have to go to appeal this time, and my case is convincing. I hate to think what other people have to go through. Still, it depends on the doctor you get as well.


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## extra dry (Mar 26, 2012)

Anyway, my question is whether the are likely to compare answers to the previous year?

If they 'the company' is as bad and twisted in it operating procedures, I would say numbers have been agreed, maybe a percentage, this year 4% cut in numbers, the old, the infirm, the people who slagged off the boos, next year 6% the unstable, the people they just don't want around.   The share holders would of had these meetings months ago.  I would not worry too much what answers you put really. If the company/firm is going to let you find other pursuits then it is a fight to stay in.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Intriguing.


 
Not unheard-of, though, although thankfully not yet standard practice this side of the pond.
What makes me laugh is that such tactics indicate a belief on the part of the DWP that protesters aren't imaginative enough to find a way round it.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

treelover said:


> How can they justify spending public money on these basically political goals, the DWP has been a law unto itself for sometime, i suspect soon they will develop tactics to undermine the campaigners themselves...


 
You think that they're not already trying that on by giving succour to ATOS?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

culder said:


> I can't be sure, but I don't get the impression that they refer to previous forms. (To be honest, after my own experience, I'm not convinced they refer very much to the current one, either!) I don't think you need to worry too much about this - if your situation has deteriorated, then of course your answers would be different, wouldn't they?
> 
> As for the different form - tell me about it! It's disgraceful.It took me weeks to figure out where to mention things that weren't specifically asked about.


 
Well, they *do* retain copies *and* refer to previous forms when it suits them, say when they're trying to nail you at a tribunal, and you've slightly contradicted yourself on the new form over what was on the preceding form, but not when it favours the claimant, no. 

E2A: The bit on the form that asks for "any other details" is the bit I use as a reference to all the pages of additional printed information I send along with the form. That way I get to describe my conditions in excrutiatingly pedantic detail, so that they can't claim that I didn't mention something, or so that they can go purely by what their so-called "medical assessment" tells them.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They have completely changed the way points are awarded, and this time round it's much harder to score points. If you are worse then last time around, answer the questions as best you can with that in mind.


 
Or, if anyone can afford it, become a paid-up member (about £20 a year) of the Benefits and Work website, and download a copy of one of their ESA form-filling guides. They're top-notch, and compiled from advice from welfare and legal professionals who scrutinise the legislation *and* the legal precedents.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2012)

Mikey77 said:


> So the guidelines are outdated as well. They do have June 2011 on them, but that is not good enough. Giving incorrect info on the DWP website is only more dishonest, and shows they don't care. Oh, well. Maybe I'll have to go to appeal this time, and my case is convincing. I hate to think what other people have to go through. Still, it depends on the doctor you get as well.


 
ESA "medicals" aren't necessarily conducted by a doctor, Mikey. ATOS employs "medical professionals". Basically this means that your assessor could be a physiotherapist or a nurse, with only passing knowledge of the effects of long-term sickness or disabilities. They're just button-pushers ticking software boxes, who're generally even less inclined to give a fuck what happens to the people they process than the (mostly superannuated or incompetent) doctors that the DWP used to do Disability Living Allowance and Incapacity Benefit medicals.


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## Mikey77 (Mar 28, 2012)

Yeah, that's right. I almost forgot. I was lucky enough to get a very understanding doctor when I went to an assessment centre the last time, but who knows who I might get this time. Yeah, I know someone who had a DLA medical recently and the doctor was more than willing to state on the form that the person was "unlikely" to have any of the issues they claimed to have. It seems that docs sometimes like to get involved in the decision making rather than the assessments.


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## culder (Mar 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, they *do* retain copies *and* refer to previous forms when it suits them...


 
Oh yes, I can believe that!

Sometimes (or perhaps I should say 'often' or 'it varies'!) there seems to be so much to take in that I just don't want to think about it anymore, it gets so confusing. Which is probably the intention, of course.

My most recent problem resulting from it all is that I had letters telling me I needed to pay 1p per week in rent, and 10p for the year's Council Tax. They spent more than that just on the postage. It's been sorted out since, though of course it cost me yet another phone call.


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## culder (Mar 28, 2012)

Re the doctors/nurses doing the assessments - mine was a Registered Nurse. I'd trust her to give me an injection or check my bloody pressure etc, but her knowledge of mental health was zero.


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## audiotech (Mar 28, 2012)

The 'quiet man' has been accused of breaking the law. Meanwhile:



> ...GPs in Scotland have called for an immediate end to the controversial ATOS work capability assessments on the grounds that they could have a devastating impact on patients’ health.


 
http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/03/maria-miller-letter-dwp-human-rights-committee/


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## audiotech (Mar 28, 2012)




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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2012)

culder said:


> A few days ago I got this year's Council Tax bill, and they want 10p for the whole year (although my income has dropped by around 30%).
> 
> Then a day or so later I got two letters from Housing (I'm a Council tenant). The first one said that from the beginning of April I need to pay rent of 1p per week. The second letter was exactly the same.
> 
> So they've already spent more than my annual rent and CT combined, just by sending the letters.


 
Were they sent 1st or 2nd class?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or, if anyone can afford it, become a paid-up member (about £20 a year) of the Benefits and Work website, and download a copy of one of their ESA form-filling guides. They're top-notch, and compiled from advice from welfare and legal professionals who scrutinise the legislation *and* the legal precedents.


 
Yep, very helpful site.  They even had a discount earlier in the year


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## yardbird (Mar 29, 2012)

I just thought that I'd check my score re my ESA50 that I sent off some time ago.
Silly me, it relates to form ESA something else.
That means that ATOS will be checking/scoring two different forms with subtle (not) differences, at the same time.
Nightmare.


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## culder (Mar 29, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Were they sent 1st or 2nd class?


 

Second, as far as I remember. That's 28p each, times three = 84p. The annual rent they were asking for was 52p, and then another 10p for CT!


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## yardbird (Mar 29, 2012)

I've just spoken to ATOS again and I was wrong, they are still only doing ESA50 forms.
THE RECORDING THING:
Once again confirmed, but it's vital that the recording is requested as soon as you first hear about your appointment.
They will have big problems if everybody requests a recording of their assessment, because they won't have the gear. Several people all having asked, then they'll be juggling like crazy, if _everybody _asks/demands then ATOS medical centres will come to a grinding halt!!


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## equationgirl (Mar 29, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I've just spoken to ATOS again and I was wrong, they are still only doing ESA50 forms.
> THE RECORDING THING:
> Once again confirmed, but it's vital that the recording is requested as soon as you first hear about your appointment.
> They will have big problems if everybody requests a recording of their assessment, because they won't have the gear. Several people all having asked, then they'll be juggling like crazy, if _everybody _asks/demands then ATOS medical centres will come to a grinding halt!!


Anything that throws a spanner in the works, so long as people's payments aren't delayed, is good


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## Quartz (Mar 30, 2012)

yardbird said:


> They will have big problems if everybody requests a recording of their assessment, because they won't have the gear. Several people all having asked, then they'll be juggling like crazy, if _everybody _asks/demands then ATOS medical centres will come to a grinding halt!!


 
Surely it would be a boost for industry as ATOS would have to purchase extra kit?


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## tufty79 (Mar 30, 2012)

not ATOS related, but an ESA question - is anyone else on contributions based esa and affected by the new time limitation clause? they've told me my claim will automatically close on april 30th, but they'll automatically send me a form to fill out to apply for income based before then  (my faith in them managing to do this isn't high) - anyone got any experience of this/how problematic it's likely to be? i also had an ATOS assessment in january, which has kept me in the WRG - anyone know whether (if it's accepted) changing over to income based will mean another assessment straight off? ta x


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 30, 2012)

Mikey77 said:


> Yeah, that's right. I almost forgot. I was lucky enough to get a very understanding doctor when I went to an assessment centre the last time, but who knows who I might get this time. Yeah, I know someone who had a DLA medical recently and the doctor was more than willing to state on the form that the person was "unlikely" to have any of the issues they claimed to have. It seems that docs sometimes like to get involved in the decision making rather than the assessments.


 
Had one medical exam for DLA where the bloke did much the same. Had another where the doctor told fibs and signed off the form where I was supposed to. The last two I had, I was lucky enough that the doctor I saw was a former partner of my GP, who actually phoned him and spoke to him (with my permission) before submitting the form. At my last renewal, they didn't bother to send a doctor to examine me, just gave me an "indefinite" award for high rate mobility and high rate care.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2012)

Telephone call from Atos a week, or so ago: 'Will you be available for a WCA?'
Me: Yes, but I'm requesting a home visit?
Atos: 'You will need a letter from your GP. Send this to us.'
Me: 'I'll do that, even though you already have a letter from my GP from the last time, when I was assessed at my home.'
A few days later appointment made with GP, who supplied me with said letter, duly sent to Atos.
Letter arrived this morning from Atos: "Please attend the medical centre at blah, blah, blah..."


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Telephone call from Atos a week, or so ago: 'Will you be available for a WCA?'
> Me: Yes, but I'm requesting a home visit?
> Atos: 'You will need a letter from your GP. Send this to us.'
> Me: 'I'll do that, even though you already have a letter from my GP from the last time, when I was assessed at my home.'
> ...


How frustrating 

Calling yardbird! 

Can you write to them, pointing out a home visit has been requested? Hopefully you'll get somebody half-competent who'll put you down for the home visit this time.


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2012)

I'll be ringing them Monday in a calm but assertive manner.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I'll be ringing them Monday in a calm but assertive manner.


Hope it goes well


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## yardbird (Mar 31, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I'll be ringing them Monday in a calm but assertive manner.


Who would you be calling?
You can cross check by using the 0800 2888777 number - they can tell you if GP's letter was received.
Good luck Monday and I like calm and assertive


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## audiotech (Mar 31, 2012)

Thanks for that tip and number yardbird, but I see it's the exact same on the letter they sent.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Thanks for that tip and number yardbird, but I see it's the exact same on the letter they sent.


At least they can type their own phone number correctly - there's hope yet!


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## yardbird (Apr 2, 2012)

Paul Falmer, chief exec for Mind has resigned due to his feelings about Work Capability Assessment.
He doesn't like ATOS, although didn't name them.


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## culder (Apr 2, 2012)

Hope it all goes well, Audio.


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## audiotech (Apr 2, 2012)

Rang number, told to ring an other number, then told they will ring me in a few days to tell me if a home visit has been "approved". A surreal moment, as it felt like I was communicating with robots, bereft of any humanity.

This tune is dedicated to their masters:


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## equationgirl (Apr 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Paul Falmer, chief exec for Mind has resigned due to his feelings about Work Capability Assessment.
> He doesn't like ATOS, although didn't name them.


Interesting, although will that help MIND, or is it a protest resignation?


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## yardbird (Apr 2, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Interesting, although will that help MIND, or is it a protest resignation?


I think I misheard.
He has resigned from a gov group and not Mind.
Chris Grayling says that he fired him and he didn't resign.


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## equationgirl (Apr 2, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I think I misheard.
> He has resigned from a gov group and not Mind.
> Chris Grayling says that he fired him and he didn't resign.


Well Grayling would say, wouldn't he? Can't stand the tosser.


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## Meltingpot (Apr 2, 2012)

I had my own experience with Chris Grayling once, about a year ago. I wrote to my MP about the time I was four weeks with no benefits or money coming in at all, in the depths of winter, and she sent a copy of my letter to Mr. Grayling.

He replied with a letter which got pretty much all the salient points of the case wrong, even including the address of the benefits office which was dealing with my claim.

I replied politely, but frankly I wasn't impressed; it was very sloppy of him IMO. Detail doesn't seem to be his strong point.


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## audiotech (Apr 4, 2012)

Informed today that a decision has been made to overrule my GP with regards to a home visit for a second WCA. I couldn't speak after I was told this over the phone. At my wits end now. The appointment is in just three days. What should I do?


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## Quartz (Apr 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Informed today that a decision has been made to overrule my GP with regards to a home visit for a second WCA. I couldn't speak after I was told this over the phone. At my wits end now. The appointment is in just three days. What should I do?


 
Have you spoken to your GP?


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## audiotech (Apr 4, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Have you spoken to your GP?


 
The letter my GP wrote in support couldn't be more clearer to whoever made this decision and anyway I'm not inclined to bother my GP anymore than I have to. I'm going to ring Atos tomorrow, now I've calmed down a bit and also research what my options are. I'll try 'welfare rights' too, but I don't expect much from them. If in the meantime anyone has further advice they can offer I would be grateful.


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## yardbird (Apr 4, 2012)

My GP would be livid and on the phone!


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## Quartz (Apr 4, 2012)

Very best of luck!


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## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The letter my GP wrote in support couldn't be more clearer to whoever made this decision and anyway I'm not inclined to bother my GP anymore than I have to. I'm going to ring Atos tomorrow, now I've calmed down a bit and also research what my options are. I'll try 'welfare rights' too, but I don't expect much from them. If in the meantime anyone has further advice they can offer I would be grateful.


Are there any advocate services in your area that could help?

I find it astounding that Atos think they know better than experienced qualified medical professionals. How dare they decide that you should travel rather than have your assessment at home


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## WouldBe (Apr 5, 2012)

I bet it's a trap. If you turn up you're clearly not as disabled as you claim.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The letter my GP wrote in support couldn't be more clearer to whoever made this decision and anyway I'm not inclined to bother my GP anymore than I have to. I'm going to ring Atos tomorrow, now I've calmed down a bit and also research what my options are. I'll try 'welfare rights' too, but I don't expect much from them. If in the meantime anyone has further advice they can offer I would be grateful.


 
I'd be asking them exactly whose authority at ATOS is deemed to overrule your general practitioner, and then demand to:
a) speak with that person, and
b) demand they perssnally indemnify you for any health issues that arise from their forcing you to attend.

They won't back down, or are at least unlikely to, *but* you can then, after the event demand copies of any records they hold on you under the FoI Act, _et voila_, you have some semblance of evidence of unreasonable behaviour on their part that you can present to...well, the media, a tribunal if you're forced to go that route, etc.

Of course, this is predicated on you remaining calm, collected and humble at all times, but most of us can manage that if it means a bit of _schadenfreude_ further up the road.


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## savoloysam (Apr 5, 2012)

I have one of these coming up, it's not for disability but because I'm signed off work at moment with stress and depression, alot of it actually related to my work. What can i expect, any underhand tactics I should be looking out for?


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> I bet it's a trap. If you turn up you're clearly not as disabled as you claim.


 
My thoughts entirely. They are clearly not doing this for my welfare. Oh, hang on a minute that is exactly what they are doing it for. In this case to reduce my welfare payments.


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## audiotech (Apr 5, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd be asking them exactly whose authority at ATOS is deemed to overrule your general practitioner, and then demand to:
> a) speak with that person, and
> b) demand they perssnally indemnify you for any health issues that arise from their forcing you to attend.
> 
> ...


 
After demanding to know who had made this decision, declined, and also demanding what level of medical qualification this "practioner" had that made the person more qualified to overule a letter in support from my GP, also declined, I then requested that this information be confirmed and sent to me in writing. I was told to contact customer services. I then asked if they were prepared to accept any responsibility of what would happen next? At this point they suggested that my appointment be put forward to a later date. I informed them that that would be acceptable for the moment and give me time to speak to my GP......

Thanks VP.


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## treelover (Apr 6, 2012)

' http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2012/apr/06/carers-versus-atos-image-video'

Guardian video by big player Jon Ronson, lights arev now being shone into some very dark places...


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## audiotech (Apr 6, 2012)

savoloysam said:


> I have one of these coming up, it's not for disability but because I'm signed off work at moment with stress and depression, alot of it actually related to my work. What can i expect, any underhand tactics I should be looking out for?


 
This is obvious, but I'll say it anyway, think before you answer a question, particularly with regards to what you do in your leisure time. The government and other agency's hold to the notion that being out of work is a contributing factor to depression. What they seem unable, or deliberately to not take into account is that work can be a factor leading to depression. All that aside is the fact that their goal is to turf around 700,000 people off disability benefits and into the labour market. Gideon Osbourne is wanting to cut £10 billion from the welfare budget afterall.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 6, 2012)

treelover said:


> ' http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2012/apr/06/carers-versus-atos-image-video'
> 
> Guardian video by big player Jon Ronson, lights arev now being shone into some very dark places...


 
Found this link from the comments underneath.  Not sure if it's been posted up already, but apologies if it has.  Comments from French Atos staff

http://socialwelfareadvocacy.weebly.com/2/post/2012/03/french-atos-staff-speak-out.html


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## spartacus mills (Apr 6, 2012)

*'32 die a week after failing test for new incapacity benefit' linky  ...and check out the first line underneath the pic of Chris Grayling ;-)*


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## Quartz (Apr 6, 2012)

spartacus mills said:


> *'32 die a week after failing test for new incapacity benefit' linky ...and check out the first line underneath the pic of Chris Grayling ;-)*


 
A happenstance of formatting, I'm sure. 

But ATOS is an atrocity.


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## panpete (Apr 7, 2012)

treelover said:


> ' http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/video/2012/apr/06/carers-versus-atos-image-video'
> 
> Guardian video by big player Jon Ronson, lights arev now being shone into some very dark places...


Bumping this so anyone new coming to the thread sees it.
Mebbe it should be regularly bumped to keep it receiving attention"


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## equationgirl (Apr 9, 2012)

panpete said:


> Bumping this so anyone new coming to the thread sees it.
> Mebbe it should be regularly bumped to keep it receiving attention"


It's a sticky thread so should always be at the top of the forum.


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## il_bastardo (Apr 11, 2012)

Paul Farmer (chief executive of Mind) has just resigned from the government advisory panel for work assessments, to publicise his anger at an 'inhumane system' that is telling severely ill and disabled they are fit to work. The government aren't listening to them (or anyone else) about the flaws of ATOS. http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/10/charity-chief-quits-over-fit-for-work-test


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## il_bastardo (Apr 12, 2012)

yardbird said: ↑
To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._


That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?​Is this true? I've only heard it as a rumour before, never seen it confirmed. Any sources?


creak said:


> Is this true? I've only heard it as a rumour before, never seen it confirmed. Any sources?


 
Yes, it's true. Here's a source: http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jul/24/atos-faces-critical-report-by-mps

_During the work and pensions select committee hearings earlier this summer, MPs asked if Atos was penalised financially for inaccuracy. The company said it was paid per assessment, with no sanction if the decision was overturned on appeal. Anne Begg, Labour chair of the committee, responded: "That adds to the suspicion that you are a private company, you are driven by a profit motive, and the incentive is to get the assessments done, but not necessarily to get the assessments right."_


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## il_bastardo (Apr 12, 2012)

FWIW, given our government [and other current international powers] want to abolish the Human Rights Act anyway......Apologies if this was already posted:

_In Geneva today [2/4/12], Dr Pauline Nolan, Policy Officer for Inclusion Scotland, will submit evidence to a preliminary hearing ahead of a planned review of the human rights record of 14 states, including the UK._

_Dr Nolan will warn the cumulative impact of welfare reform and cuts to benefits affecting disabled people will mean their ability to live a full life is impaired. In particular, she will argue that welfare changes undermine their right to be included in the community. _

_The campaign also claims disabled people are being denied access to justice when they try to appeal against these cuts to their benefits._

and heres a shocking statistic.....

_"The combined voices of disabled people have either been silenced or misrepresented by the UK Government in their resolution to make disabled people suffer over 50% of the total £18bn in benefit cuts."_

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...ing-human-rights-of-disabled-un-told.17186941


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## equationgirl (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks il-bastardo, very interesting. Shocking statistic too


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## toggle (Apr 13, 2012)

il_bastardo said:


> yardbird said: ↑
> To the best of my knowledge ATOS get paid for each person that their assessment turns down, but _they don't have to pay anything back if their assessment is overturned on appeal._​That seems nuts to me, I wonder who made the deal?​Is this true? I've only heard it as a rumour before, never seen it confirmed. Any sources?
> 
> 
> ...


 
if they are being paid to give a reason to take people off benefits, then surely the incentive is to get them wrong.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 13, 2012)

toggle said:


> if they are being paid to give a reason to take people off benefits, then surely the incentive is to get them wrong.


Well, they'd say they're being paid to do the assessments, rather than "get people off benefits" and that *that* is exactly what they're doing, very badly.
The fact that ATOS can barely be penalised for poor performance (and their performance *is* worse than SchlumbergerSema's was when they originally held the contract before the ATOSsers bought them up) does give a fairly accurate signal of the govt's position with reference to people with disabilities and illnesses getting fucked over, though.


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## toggle (Apr 13, 2012)

gvt want people off benefits, therefore an assessor that is emoving people is more likely to winfavour and more contracts for doing so. with no clawback for getting it wrong, then there's an incentive to get peoplelabelled fit for work.

and the government get to say that a large number of people \re being found fit for work, ergo they were scroungers. fits in with the demonise the disabled campaigns


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 13, 2012)

toggle said:


> gvt want people off benefits, therefore an assessor that is emoving people is more likely to winfavour and more contracts for doing so. with no clawback for getting it wrong, then there's an incentive to get peoplelabelled fit for work.
> 
> and the government get to say that a large number of people \re being found fit for work, ergo they were scroungers. fits in with the demonise the disabled campaigns


 
Sure, but look at it this way - why leave hostages to fortune in the shape of having a company policy (tacit though it would have to be) to toe the government line in order to garner further contracts, when all one has to do is *exactly* what ATOS were allowed to do: Downgrade the qualifications of the person performing the assessment, so that they no longer need to be a qualified physician, they merely have to be a "medical professional", a nurse, physio or the like who claim to have "some" experience of dealing with/treating people with long-term sickness and/or disability?
That does the same thing, but without any cloak and daggerage or need for incentives beyond a nod and a wink at the right time, and without any risk to either the government or to ATOS, just to the people they're fucking over.


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## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2012)

One of my former colleagues now works for Atos


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## yardbird (Apr 14, 2012)

Was on the phone to ATOS again yesterday (I'm getting used to this) and have found out more about the recording business - more than slightly chaotic. 
When you call the 0800 number, it's free obviously, but when the people you need to speak to are "customer relations" then it's an area code number 0113 2309175 which of course is chargeable.
This number does not have stacking, you just get engaged and an offer of call-back.
Don't think that they want you to speak to customer relations!

Bye the bye, when I asked the 0800 about having someone there, my SIL - yes of course. Then I said she was a doctor. There was a gulp and a stutter


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## Greebo (Apr 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> <snip>Bye the bye, when I asked the 0800 about having someone there, my SIL - yes of course. Then I said she was a doctor. There was a gulp and a stutter


Oh how my heart bleeds for the person who turns up <VEG>


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## yardbird (Apr 14, 2012)

Assessors have been told that they have to ask questions directly and not do the sneaky bit of "do/did you watch East Enders" and then mark down that you can sit for half an hour.
Like in Bladerunner with the Voicecom test at the beginning if you get offhand questions at the start, then ask if the test has started.

Oh yeah, the person on the 0800 number said that I clearly new more about some things than he did - bit worrying that.


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## iona (Apr 14, 2012)

I got signed off until February and after making, and then rescheduling, an appointment for me in a city I haven't lived in since January (despite their having my new address on record) I finally managed to get the right phone number to arrange an appointment on the right side of the country. Which they've now rearranged again. Eejits


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## culder (Apr 14, 2012)

I think 'eejits' is very polite of you!

Still waiting, life on hold, can't see a future that doesn't involve this crap.


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## iona (Apr 19, 2012)

Well, ATOS may generally be a bunch of utter cunts, but the woman I saw today was great. She'd obviously bothered to actually read my ESA50, and when she saw how stressed out I was she asked a few questions about a couple of the answers I'd given and about stuff that'd changed since I filled it out and that was it. The whole thing took maybe five minutes and she even called me a cab afterwards to save me the added stress of walking through the city centre and getting the tube just as everyone was leaving work


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## equationgirl (Apr 19, 2012)

iona said:


> Well, ATOS may generally be a bunch of utter cunts, but the woman I saw today was great. She'd obviously bothered to actually read my ESA50, and when she saw how stressed out I was she asked a few questions about a couple of the answers I'd given and about stuff that'd changed since I filled it out and that was it. The whole thing took maybe five minutes and she even called me a cab afterwards to save me the added stress of walking through the city centre and getting the tube just as everyone was leaving work


I hope this means you can stay on the level of benefits you are on, it would be nice to have a good result and a glimmer of hope for everyone.


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## Greebo (Apr 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I hope this means you can stay on the level of benefits you are on, it would be nice to have a good result and a glimmer of hope for everyone.


Word.


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## trevhagl (Apr 27, 2012)

iona said:


> Well, ATOS may generally be a bunch of utter cunts, but the woman I saw today was great. She'd obviously bothered to actually read my ESA50, and when she saw how stressed out I was she asked a few questions about a couple of the answers I'd given and about stuff that'd changed since I filled it out and that was it. The whole thing took maybe five minutes and she even called me a cab afterwards to save me the added stress of walking through the city centre and getting the tube just as everyone was leaving work


 
that's her kicked out of a job then!


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## trevhagl (Apr 27, 2012)

just saw a link on Facebook that protesters have taken over the Newcastle office , yes!!!!!


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## trevhagl (Apr 27, 2012)

don't expect to see it in the tabloids


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## trevhagl (Apr 27, 2012)

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/2012/04/27/newcastle-atos-occupied/


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## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2012)

For everyone on disability - an excellent post from Sue Marsh's blog 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger':

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/its-all-in-your-head.html#comment-form


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> For everyone on disability - an excellent post from Sue Marsh's blog 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger':
> 
> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/its-all-in-your-head.html#comment-form


 
Absolutely love the comment where the poster says " 'Dismissive Personality Disorder' is a mental health condition were the majority of sufferers are healthcare professionals such as doctors, nurses, therapists as well as government professionals and their partner companies' employees such as current ministers of Health and ATOS employees" and then gets even more caustic.


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## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Absolutely love the comment where the poster says " 'Dismissive Personality Disorder' is a mental health condition were the majority of sufferers are healthcare professionals such as doctors, nurses, therapists as well as government professionals and their partner companies' employees such as current ministers of Health and ATOS employees" and then gets even more caustic.


Some excellent comments on that blog. 

Having been told my chronic pain is in my head, as are the countless kidney infections, I can only relate to what she and the many comment-leavers posted.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Some excellent comments on that blog.
> 
> Having been told my chronic pain is in my head, as are the countless kidney infections, I can only relate to what she and the many comment-leavers posted.


 
Had one GP who said that. She got a bit irate at my reply of "your belief that my symptoms are all in *my* head is frankly all in *your* head, love". She was a fucking awful GP, too. She imposed an arbitrary limit on my analgesia of 100 co-proxamol every 28 days, and then wondered why, after 8 months as my GP, my pain, bowel problems and joint problems were all much worse.


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## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Had one GP who said that. She got a bit irate at my reply of "your belief that my symptoms are all in *my* head is frankly all in *your* head, love". She was a fucking awful GP, too. She imposed an arbitrary limit on my analgesia of 100 co-proxamol every 28 days, and then wondered why, after 8 months as my GP, my pain, bowel problems and joint problems were all much worse.


I'm reasonably certain I've got 'drug seeker' somewhere in my notes. Trouble is there's so many volumes of them now it'd be a real pain in the arse to get copies of them.

What an awful GP though - I had one that refused to give me co-proxamol, saying it was no different to paracetamol. The pharmacist was pretty amazed when I told him who'd said that. In the end my parents got the ones my grandfather no longer needed (he'd gone into a home) and that lasted me until I got a new GP.


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## ButterPie (Apr 27, 2012)

Do not get me started on bloody ATOS. I wrote a thing on it here - http://camelshump.co.uk/2011/11/23/tick-enough-boxes-you-can-work/ but basically they are rubbish on two levels - they are a tick box exercise, so somebody ill but not using the right phrases would get refused, but then if you know the phrases you would be able to fake it.

Why oh why don't they use reports from people's own doctors? When I went to mine it was one of the first outings I had had since discharging myself (I absconded from leave and refused to go back) from a mental hospital. Why on earth did I have to go?


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## ButterPie (Apr 27, 2012)

Oh, and on the "drug seeker" thing - I have had that on two different hospital admissions for different things.  When I was pregnant I had problems with my hips that left me unable to walk or even turn over in bed without agaonising pain, so I spent the last month of the pregnancy full of coedine (it just about took the edge off, but was all they could do) - I went in for a section, then the day later asked for my coedine - I still had the hip problem (even though it was meant to be pregnancy only, sigh) plus I had just had a baby dragged out of my belly, but they refused on the grounds that I shouldn't have coedine for more than three days.  ARGH.

Then when I went into mental hospital, I have a small stock of tranquillisers at home for use when I feel a relapse happening or have a massive panic about something.  I was having maybe two doses (usually on the same day) a month, but obviously in the run up to hospital I had been having more.  They refused to give me any in hospital and instead tried to get me onto the much more sedating and long term antipsychotics.  I was driving myself mad just arguing over that - I only needed to take the tranqs to get over that relapse, I knew the pattern of my relapses, it was likely to be only a few days before I was ready to cope without them, I had never had problems coming off them, etc.  So they gave me a pill that made me fall asleep in a corridor and not be able to move, and I was stil panicing.  Arses.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> Do not get me started on bloody ATOS. I wrote a thing on it here - http://camelshump.co.uk/2011/11/23/tick-enough-boxes-you-can-work/ but basically they are rubbish on two levels - they are a tick box exercise, so somebody ill but not using the right phrases would get refused, but then if you know the phrases you would be able to fake it.


 
"Faking it" was certainly a lot harder when you were actually examined by a doctor for an Incapacity Benefit claim. This whole charade about "medical professionals" (i.e. the road-sweepings of nursing, physiotherapy and other vaguely medical roles) is not only an insult to a person with long-term sickness(es) and/or disabilities, but to the 99% of people in those disciplines who don't prostitute their professional status in order to lend a little (spurious) authenticity to ATOS's supposed "assessments".



> Why oh why don't they use reports from people's own doctors? When I went to mine it was one of the first outings I had had since discharging myself (I absconded from leave and refused to go back) from a mental hospital. Why on earth did I have to go?


 
Because your own doctor is not taken (by the DWP) as being impartial, whereas someone who works for a contractor employed by the DWP...they're supposed to be impartial.  Of course, in reality they're about as impartial as the Pope is about contraception.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> Oh, and on the "drug seeker" thing - I have had that on two different hospital admissions for different things. When I was pregnant I had problems with my hips that left me unable to walk or even turn over in bed without agaonising pain, so I spent the last month of the pregnancy full of coedine (it just about took the edge off, but was all they could do) - I went in for a section, then the day later asked for my coedine - I still had the hip problem (even though it was meant to be pregnancy only, sigh) plus I had just had a baby dragged out of my belly, but they refused on the grounds that I shouldn't have coedine for more than three days. ARGH.


 
Odd, that. I've been taking (prescribed) codeine for about *6,500* days in a row, which means I've exceeded their (entirely arbitrary, by the way!  ) limit by 2,200-ish times!


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## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Had one GP who said that. She got a bit irate at my reply of "your belief that my symptoms are all in *my* head is frankly all in *your* head, love". She was a fucking awful GP, too. She imposed an arbitrary limit on my analgesia of 100 co-proxamol every 28 days, and then wondered why, after 8 months as my GP, my pain, bowel problems and joint problems were all much worse.


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## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

Just to let you guys know. Sometimes I cannot read some posts as they are triggering for me.
(trying to minimize worry), this does not mean I do not care.
For all of you who are dealing with atos, I hope it goes as smooth as possible.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


>


 
It was crappy, but I'm a firm believer in "what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger", so as far as I'm concerned, her being a shite GP just made me less tolerant of GPs giving me the run-around.


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## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It was crappy, but I'm a firm believer in "what doesn't kill us, makes us stronger", so as far as I'm concerned, her being a shite GP just made me less tolerant of GPs giving me the run-around.


Sorry you had such a bad GP, do you have a more humane one now? I hope so.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> Sorry you had such a bad GP, do you have a more humane one now? I hope so.


 
The whole surgery treats me better, because they know I won't take shit, a few of them made the mistake of assuming that just because I look like Shrek and sound like a south London thicko, that I am thick. They don't make that mistake any more, *and* they're aware that I'll happily clog up their complaints system if they act outside of their own regulations.


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## yardbird (Apr 28, 2012)

I have no notice of my reassessment yet, but in a strange way I'm looking forward to it.
There may well be battles before, re home visit for me, but when it comes to the day, oh boy am I prepared!
I have an NHS commode in the garage, but don't need it - well not yet anyway. It will have to sit somewhere downstairs, I might just use it though, politely ask the assessor if they would be good enough as to take the relevant bowl upstairs and tip it down the loo.
"I have been very careful but twice had to let go half way upstairs  or I would have fallen. Fine - ready for my assessment now"


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## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I have no notice of my reassessment yet, but in a strange way I'm looking forward to it.
> There may well be battles before, re home visit for me, but when it comes to the day, oh boy am I prepared!
> I have an NHS commode in the garage, but don't need it - well not yet anyway. It will have to sit somewhere downstairs, I might just use it though, politely ask the assessor if they would be good enough as to take the relevant bowl upstairs and tip it down the loo.
> "I have been very careful but twice had to let go half way upstairs or I would have fallen. Fine - ready for my assessment now"


Hope it goes in your favour.
Atos do home visits for those who cannot get out, so I hope they can arrange this for you.


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## Greebo (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> Just to let you guys know. Sometimes I cannot read some posts as they are triggering for me.
> (trying to minimize worry), this does not mean I do not care.
> For all of you who are dealing with atos, I hope it goes as smooth as possible.


Understood.  FWIW your good wishes are appreciated.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The whole surgery treats me better, because they know I won't take shit, a few of them made the mistake of assuming that just because I look like Shrek and sound like a south London thicko, that I am thick. They don't make that mistake any more, *and* they're aware that I'll happily clog up their complaints system if they act outside of their own regulations.


I think you're one of the most articulate, well-informed posters I've ever interacted with. More fool them for judging you.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2012)

yardbird said:


> <snip>I have an NHS commode in the garage, but don't need it - well not yet anyway. It will have to sit somewhere downstairs, I might just use it though, politely ask the assessor if they would be good enough as to take the relevant bowl upstairs and tip it down the loo.
> "I have been very careful but twice had to let go half way upstairs or I would have fallen. Fine - ready for my assessment now"


Ooh, nice touch!


----------



## yardbird (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> Hope it goes in your favour.
> Atos do home visits for those who cannot get out, so I hope they can arrange this for you.


Oh, but I do get out, but no day is the same so can't plan things in advance and have to give in and stay at home.
My GP, my physiotherapist and my neurologist all say that I mustn't travel to them, they must come to me.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think you're one of the most articulate, well-informed posters I've ever interacted with. More fool them for judging you.


Tbf on a bad day (when crashed or in more pain than usual), VP slurs a bit, can look a bit vacant, and takes more time than you'd expect to finish a simple sentence.  

OTOH staff working in a medical environment should be aware than anyone can sound and look more dim than they really are when in a lot of pain, distracted by other symptoms, or just plain exhausted!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think you're one of the most articulate, well-informed posters I've ever interacted with. More fool them for judging you.


 


My favourite moment was seeing one doctor noticing the book I was reading, and going a bit pale. The title? "Research Methods and Audit for General Practice". 
Dr. "Why are you reading that?".
Me "just brushing up on protocols. I think that GP surgeries are great sites for conducting social research, with all the cross-cutting social vectors, don't you?".

Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Tbf on a bad day (when crashed or in more pain than usual), VP slurs a bit, can look a bit vacant, and takes more time than you'd expect to finish a simple sentence.
> 
> OTOH staff working in a medical environment should be aware than anyone can sound and look more dim than they really are when in a lot of pain, distracted by other symptoms, or just plain exhausted!


Oh yes, completely agree, I've had a lot of pain recently - got up from my chair on Monday and something made a very loud crunching sound - and what with the drugs and their knock-on effects, I've had trouble standing up and walking in a straight line has been quite troublesome. I can normally hide most of it except near the end of the day.

Medical staff don't seem to understand, at least in my experience, that dealing with pain is exhausting and takes a real mental effort, whether meds are taken or not.


----------



## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Oh, but I do get out, but no day is the same so can't plan things in advance and have to give in and stay at home.
> My GP, my physiotherapist and my neurologist all say that I mustn't travel to them, they must come to me.


I would request that Atos come to your house, because if you don't, on the day of your assessment, you may not be able to get there. 
Not being negative, I hope you can, it's just a precaution, especially as your physio and neuro advise accepting home visits from them, rather than trying to go to them.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> My favourite moment was seeing one doctor noticing the book I was reading, and going a bit pale. The title? "Research Methods and Audit for General Practice".
> Dr. "Why are you reading that?".
> Me "just brushing up on protocols. I think that GP surgeries are great sites for conducting social research, with all the cross-cutting social vectors, don't you?".
> 
> Mwahahahahahahaha!!!!


A true kodak moment that money couldn't buy


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> I would request that Atos come to your house, because if you don't, on the day of your assessment, you may not be able to get there.
> Not being negative, I hope you can, it's just a precaution, especially as your physio and neuro advise accepting home visits from them, rather than trying to go to them.


I suspect yardbird is entertaining no notions of anything that could be construed as making life easier for atos


----------



## panpete (Apr 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Oh yes, completely agree, I've had a lot of pain recently - got up from my chair on Monday and something made a very loud crunching sound - and what with the drugs and their knock-on effects, I've had trouble standing up and walking in a straight line has been quite troublesome. I can normally hide most of it except near the end of the day.
> 
> Medical staff don't seem to understand, at least in my experience, that dealing with pain is exhausting and takes a real mental effort, whether meds are taken or not.


Ouch. 
I know it is painful, but please don't feel you have to hide it when you see Atos.
Tell them how exhausting it feels to deal with.
It's easy to hide pain among friends so they don't worry so much, and I know it's unplesant but Atos need to know all about it, as they might find you fit for work if they are not aware of the extent of the pain.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> I would request that Atos come to your house, because if you don't, on the day of your assessment, you may not be able to get there.
> Not being negative, I hope you can, it's just a precaution, especially as your physio and neuro advise accepting home visits from them, rather than trying to go to them.


Don't worry, I'm on the ball with this, they have been told.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

panpete said:


> Ouch.
> I know it is painful, but please don't feel you have to hide it when you see Atos.
> Tell them how exhausting it feels to deal with.
> It's easy to hide pain among friends so they don't worry so much, and I know it's unplesant but Atos need to know all about it, as they might find you fit for work if they are not aware of the extent of the pain.


I don't have to see atos - I don't qualify for any disability benefits as I work.
I try and support people by finding information about the assessment methods in the hope it will help people with their assessments.

It's not much, but I hope it's useful.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I suspect yardbird is entertaining no notions of anything that could be construed as making life easier for atos


What? Do you mean having my SiL who is a retired GP as a witness/helper?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

yardbird said:


> What? Do you mean having my SiL who is a retired GP as a witness/helper?


That's making life easier for you, which I wholeheartedly and 110% support.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> That's making life easier for you, which I wholeheartedly and 110% support.


The intention is to intimidate ATOS, sis is so up for this


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The intention is to intimidate ATOS, sis is so up for this


Sadly I don't think that will be hard to do.


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 28, 2012)

I (accidentally)intimidated my CPN the other day   She came round with a little printout about stress (some people feel a bit worried or upset when they have a lot to deal with, and this is called stress...<picture of worried person>), and I, without thinking, said "ooh, funny you should mention that - I'm just doing an essay on whether the cortical or subcortical pathway is more important in the reaction to fear and stress, and how the two interact and affect the peripheral nervous system and then the rest of the body - it's really interesting!"

Hehehe, being mental doesn't mean you can't read 

When I started the course I had to tell them that I had recently been in hospital and so might not have access to books if it happened again and they carried out the threat to keep me in longer next time.  Then I remembered that my ward was next to the doctors library.  One of my courses is about biological psychology...  If they have me in there, that is going to become my "annoying the staff till they let me do it" thing I think


----------



## Greebo (Apr 28, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> <snip>When I started the course I had to tell them that I had recently been in hospital and so might not have access to books if it happened again and they carried out the threat to keep me in longer next time. Then I remembered that my ward was next to the doctors library. One of my courses is about biological psychology... If they have me in there, that is going to become my "annoying the staff till they let me do it" thing I think


Go for it, if you need to.  You could reasonably argue that it's occupational therapy.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 28, 2012)

Can't go into detail, but I'm in the process of submitting a formal complaint against Atos over the way I've been treated and their abysmal "customer service". Get this an' all, in their formal letter I received this morning in response to my initial correspondence the letter ended stating that for 'my convenience a pre-paid envelope was enclosed with the form sent'. No it wasn't!  All that was included was a compliments slip! This typifies what we are dealing with here. An outfit "not fit for purpose".


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 28, 2012)

I'd be lucky... last time it was a one on one session with clay once a week, a crowded room with not enough chairs where we could knit once a week and other stuff that didn't happen   There was a garden, which I would have loved, but it was men only.

It's ok, I escaped after 10 days, but I think that might go against my chances of leave if I have to go back.  Fingers crossed though - it is the first time I have remembered a hospital admission, so hopefully I made sense about why I didn't need to be there after the first 48 hours.


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 28, 2012)

Hmm, that was meant to contain a quote...  I'll get the hang of it at some point...


----------



## panpete (Apr 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I don't have to see atos - I don't qualify for any disability benefits as I work.
> I try and support people by finding information about the assessment methods in the hope it will help people with their assessments.
> 
> It's not much, but I hope it's useful.


Very much so - thanks


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 29, 2012)

I presume you know that DLA (disability living allowance) isn't means tested and that you can work?  It even gives you extra tax credits.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Apr 29, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> Hmm, that was meant to contain a quote... I'll get the hang of it at some point...


Just click Reply on the post (or posts) you want to quote and the quote (or quotes) will be there in your reply box.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> I presume you know that DLA (disability living allowance) isn't means tested and that you can work? It even gives you extra tax credits.


I've looked into it but I'm not sick enough to qualify for it, according to their criteria.

Thank you for thinking of me


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 29, 2012)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Just click Reply on the post (or posts) you want to quote and the quote (or quotes) will be there in your reply box.


 
Thanks


----------



## yardbird (Apr 29, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> Thanks


Bye the bye, hi and welcome. You've not been here long - it's worth taking a bit time read this thread and have a look around as well.
We don't like ATOS here


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 29, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Bye the bye, hi and welcome. You've not been here long - it's worth taking a bit time read this thread and have a look around as well.
> We don't like ATOS here


 
Will do, thanks   My best friend has been nagging me to join for ages, so I thought I might as well give it a try.  She generally has good taste.  Well, in friends anyway


----------



## yardbird (Apr 29, 2012)

I was just thinking that over the years, despite major problems in both personal and business areas, as well as joy and success, I have coped well, with one major hiccup when my bro died.
I've been okay in my head, what with having MS and all, but these fuckers ATOS have caused me sleepless nights, a daily dose of 40mg Citalopram and slightly unbalanced thoughts. Suicide and the like.

ATOS has made me sick!


----------



## ButterPie (Apr 29, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was just thinking that over the years, despite major problems in both personal and business areas, as well as joy and success, I have coped well, with one major hiccup when my bro died.
> I've been okay in my head, what with having MS and all, but these fuckers ATOS have caused me sleepless nights, a daily dose of 40mg Citalopram and slightly unbalanced thoughts. Suicide and the like.
> 
> ATOS has made me sick!


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was just thinking that over the years, despite major problems in both personal and business areas, as well as joy and success, I have coped well, with one major hiccup when my bro died.
> I've been okay in my head, what with having MS and all, but these fuckers ATOS have caused me sleepless nights, a daily dose of 40mg Citalopram and slightly unbalanced thoughts. Suicide and the like.
> 
> ATOS has made me sick!


They should come with a health warning, like cigarettes.


----------



## High Voltage (Apr 29, 2012)

I have read every post on this thread - sometimes more than once because of a major WTF moment 

At the moment I am fit'ish, healthy'ish, middle-aged'ish, in a job'ish - if HALF of what is written here is even half true (and I am NOT FOR ONE SECOND DOUBTING ANYONE CONTRIBUTING TO THIS THREAD) - then I dread the future - how you all cope with this day to day is so far beyond my comprehension you may as well be talking a foreign language

I was initially considering posting a "witty, amusing" reply - but I can't - not on this thread - this is NOT pity, this is right royal bloody rage


----------



## Greebo (Apr 29, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> I have read every post on this thread <snip>
> 
> I was initially considering posting a "witty, amusing" reply - but I can't - not on this thread - this is NOT pity, this is right royal bloody rage


Thank you, High Voltage.  Anger is an energy, now all you need to do is use it productively and aimed in the right direction!  

And if you're wondering how people cope - well, what alternative is there?  You can't spend the rest of your life (which could be several decades) curled up and howling, it just isn't physically possible.  So you find a way to cope with it, at least on your less bloody awful days.


----------



## panpete (Apr 29, 2012)

ButterPie said:


> I presume you know that DLA (disability living allowance) isn't means tested and that you can work? It even gives you extra tax credits.


Plenty of people on DLA work full time, as they spend some of the money on aids to  help them with anything to do with work adn the rest on helping them make life with their problem easier.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Thank you, High Voltage. Anger is an energy, now all you need to do is use it productively and aimed in the right direction!
> 
> And if you're wondering how people cope - *well, what alternative is there*? You can't spend the rest of your life (which could be several decades) curled up and howling, it just isn't physically possible. So you find a way to cope with it, at least on your less bloody awful days.


And most of the time, there is no alternative. You have to cope as best you can.


----------



## tufty79 (May 8, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> not ATOS related, but an ESA question - is anyone else on contributions based esa and affected by the new time limitation clause? they've told me my claim will automatically close on april 30th, but they'll automatically send me a form to fill out to apply for income based before then  (my faith in them managing to do this isn't high) - anyone got any experience of this/how problematic it's likely to be? i also had an ATOS assessment in january, which has kept me in the WRG - anyone know whether (if it's accepted) changing over to income based will mean another assessment straight off? ta x


 
answer to this:
i was told that i'd need to fill out forms for income-related esa, which didn't arrive. i rang to chase them up, and was told that i *didn't* need to fill out any forms, as they had all the info they needed, and should be transfered automatically onto income based esa. 
had a mild panicmoment on the 30th april, and rang again to double check that i didn't need to do anything, and was told that my claim had been stopped, and because i hadn't filled in the forms that they hadn't sent me, it wasn't going to be transferred to income-based (and that they'd send the forms out but it'd take a couple of weeks).

i checked my bank account at midnight, and it looks like my claim *hasn't* been stopped. the last week's been a bit stressful, to say the least 



equationgirl said:


> They should come with a health warning, like cigarettes.


i think dwp staff should too. i realise they're understaffed, underpaid and overstretched, but the amount of wrong information i've been given by them is fairly staggering.


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 8, 2012)

After reading abit of this tread, I'm a little anxious going to meet Atos for a medical. The Tories have already made being disabled and claiming welfare almost impossible. Now ive gotta go to a bloody private company to sign me off work, what a joke. I'm very obviously disabled (sometimes)  which makes me wish i'm bad on that day cos otherwise they'll jump at any oppotunity to not pay me anymore, i don't even get DLA without a fuss cos i can roll over in bed, do my shoes up etc.  them wankers should try my standard of living for a week. Oh well i aint even met them yet, i'll attempt positivity till then and wait for the possible diatribe after.


----------



## rr22 (May 8, 2012)

Disjecta Membra said:


> After reading abit of this tread, I'm a little anxious going to meet Atos for a medical. The Tories have already made being disabled and claiming welfare almost impossible. Now ive gotta go to a bloody private company to sign me off work, what a joke. I'm very obviously disabled (sometimes)  which makes me wish i'm bad on that day cos otherwise they'll jump at any oppotunity to not pay me anymore, i don't even get DLA without a fuss cos i can roll over in bed, do my shoes up etc. them wankers should try my standard of living for a week. Oh well i aint even met them yet, i'll attempt positivity till then and wait for the possible diatribe after.


 
Don't go into it blind whatever you do,they WILL lie,and try to trick you at every turn.
The best site I found for information was http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ it cost's for full access but even the free stuff is worth a look.
You really must be prepared to stand a chance against these shitbags.
H.T.H.


----------



## Greebo (May 8, 2012)

Disjecta Membra said:


> After reading abit of this tread, I'm a little anxious going to meet Atos for a medical.<snip>i don't even get DLA without a fuss cos i can roll over in bed, do my shoes up etc. them wankers should try my standard of living for a week. Oh well i aint even met them yet, i'll attempt positivity till then and wait for the possible diatribe after.


Best of luck with the medical, please arrange to have somebody with you if at all possible.  It's bloody criminal what you have to go through to get money which is supposed to be available for what you need (ie. increased costs because of disability or prolonged ill health).


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 8, 2012)

there just a bunch' bastards, i've spent years learning and struggling to get by. Never done a DLA before and i tried it and they pay nothing for my struggling because ive found means/ways to cope, in their eyes that's that done, i'm alright because i can move, good one. When your disabled, you have a tendancy to want to not feel inadequate and useless so you dont ask for help at every oppotunity from people around you. So your dignity in these tests/hearings works against you.


----------



## yardbird (May 8, 2012)

Have you had a notification of when the assessment is going to be yet?
Notify them ASAP that you want it recorded.
If your written notification has no mention of recording then phone them tomorrow and ask/demand why you have received one without recording mentioned. 
It's always your worst day. You WILL be very obviously disabled on the day you see them!
Take someone with you as a witness and to assist you - you do need assistance, right?
Leave your dignity at the door and BE inadequate.
Under NO circumstances put on a brave face.
ATOS plays a percentage game for money, they have absolutely no interest in your health.
Oh yeah - You cannot pick a pound coin from the floor under any circumstances!
Good luck, and come back for more info if needed.

I am a thorn in their side, you can be too.


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 8, 2012)

Thx Yardy, much appreciated and i will take your advise. I like the pound bit, made me laugh. My (bad) AS should be enough, plus the other complications associated, but if they deem i can scratch my nose, so all's well, they can put me on js as "nose scratcher" see how long it takes them to find a job


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 8, 2012)

Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, apologies if it has



> *DLA TO PIP MEDICAL BONANZA*
> Disability living allowance (DLA) claimants have been  divided into four regional lots and are being sold off to ten shortlisted bidders – including multinational security companies - for the purpose of being medically assessed for personal independence payment.
> 
> A fifth, nationwide lot is also up for grabs, but the DWP have said they do not intend to use this contract  unless things go wrong with regional suppliers.
> ...


 
Security firms!


----------



## Greebo (May 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, apologies if it has
> 
> 
> 
> Security firms!


Eris, Athena, and Ares, I can't believe this is happening. Actually, that's wrong - I don't want to believe it's happening but I can easily believe that it could at the moment.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 8, 2012)

I'm not familiar with those names, but I'm familiar with Crapita and Group 4


----------



## yardbird (May 9, 2012)

I note that the LIMA software is being held back from everyone else by ATOS.
Not that I really care mind.

Last night I had a dream where someone committed suicide during an assessment


----------



## savoloysam (May 9, 2012)

Found nasty ATOS bitch on Facebook.

Must.Resist.Urge.To.Stalk.


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 9, 2012)

savoloysam said:


> Found nasty ATOS bitch on Facebook.
> 
> Must.Resist.Urge.To.Stalk.


Giz the link please sam.. By PM if needs be.. 

After a month of no benefits at all I'm ready to rip some new arseholes..


----------



## savoloysam (May 9, 2012)

Best not mate but ATOS is listed as an employer on there so fill yer boots if ya need!


----------



## yardbird (May 9, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Giz the link please sam.. By PM if needs be..
> 
> After a month of no benefits at all I'm ready to rip some new arseholes..


 
Whenever I speak to them on the phone I always tell the person on the other end that they are working for the devil and they aught to leave an employer that is killing people!
Go for it girl.


----------



## equationgirl (May 9, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not sure if this has been posted anywhere, apologies if it has
> 
> 
> 
> Security firms!


For fucks sake  just when you think it couldn't get any worse...


----------



## yardbird (May 9, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> For fucks sake  just when you think it couldn't get any worse...


Yeah. Complete and utter insanity. 
"Divided into four regional lots" 
True, true madness - postcode assessments


----------



## equationgirl (May 9, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Yeah. Complete and utter insanity.
> "Divided into four regional lots"
> True, true madness - postcode assessments


None of the firms involved give me any confidence in their abilities in this area, although to be fair Serco do occupational health assessments and use properly qualified and experienced doctors to do them (in fact when I was getting a hard time from work about being off they totally stuck up for me and wrote a useful report on my condition for HR) so they at least understand the limitations of disability and chronic health problems.
BUT
this is a completely different thing and none of the 4 firms are experienced in DWP assessments.

Having looked into the LIMA software a bit, I'd not want my competitors seeing how crap and biased it is either.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 9, 2012)

Forgot to post this from_ Benefits and Work_ website as well

In response to Paul Smith's letter to the DWP asking how many recording devices are available to the 141 assessment centres



> 1) Could you let me know how many Audio Recording Devices Atos have
> available to them throughout their entire 141 Assessment centres in
> the UK?


 
Read the response here.  The answer is quite staggering

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/audio_recording_devices


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Forgot to post this from_ Benefits and Work_ website as well
> 
> In response to Paul Smith's letter to the DWP asking how many recording devices are available to the 141 assessment centres
> 
> ...


You're right, the response is quite staggering. It makes me do this --------> all at the same time.

Fuckwits.


----------



## yardbird (May 10, 2012)

Well I'm on the phone again, now that I've read that.
Note my past posts, I knew it!!
I was told quite clearly:

The recording machine was a _TRIPLE_ recording machine.
One copy for me. One for ATOS. One for DWP.

I could have recording at home.

All assessment appointment letters _must _now say that you can have recordings as now required by DWP.

The HCP can refuse !!!

Oh do fuck off.

*Yardie will have entertaining time speaking to browbeaten ATOS person today *


----------



## yardbird (May 10, 2012)

I have just spoken to ATOS and it sounds like I won't have to be reassessed. They have sent all the info back to the benefits office.
Bit of a let down really, I was sooo up for ripping the shit out of them and my sister in law (retired GP) wanted to sit in as my witness/helper and query everything.
I await correspondence from the ESA people.


----------



## Greebo (May 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I have just spoken to ATOS and it sounds like I won't have to be reassessed. They have sent all the info back to the benefits office.
> Bit of a let down really<snip>


Glad that it's possibly one less ordeal for you to go through, yardbird. OTOH if you hadn't got yourself thoroughly prepared for it, you'd probably have to have the "reassessment".


----------



## yardbird (May 10, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Glad that it's possibly one less ordeal for you to go through, yardbird. OTOH if you hadn't got yourself thoroughly prepared for it, you'd probably have to have the "reassessment".


I shall continue to harass and question these people in the hope that I may help others as well as myself.


----------



## WouldBe (May 10, 2012)

Well done yardie. 

With only 11 recording devices across the whole country, if everyone needing an ATOS assessment requested a recording the system would grind to a halt.


----------



## yardbird (May 10, 2012)

They will have big problems if everybody requests a recording of their assessment, because they won't have the gear. Several people all having asked, then they'll be juggling like crazy, if _everybody _asks/demands then ATOS medical centres will come to a grinding halt!!Mar 29, 2012​​I just spoke to "customer relations"​The woman would not address any of the points mentioned in the above freedom of info request.​The particular thing that she would make no comment on was when I said that everyone now had the _right_ to have their assessment recorded.​"How can you deal with that when you have 11 machines for 141 sites? "​She had NO IDEA how many assessment centers there are ​


----------



## Greebo (May 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The woman would not address any of the points mentioned in the above freedom of info request.
> The particular thing that she would make no comment on was when I said that everyone now had the _right_ to have their assessment recorded.​"How can you deal with that when you have 11 machines for 141 sites? "​She had NO IDEA how many assessment centers there are ​


FFS!


----------



## spirals (May 10, 2012)

I've just had a huge form to fill in from them about my fitness for work as they are moving me from one form of my pension contributions being paid due to me being disabled to another type of disabillty benefit. I still won't get any money though and I wonder how much money and time they have just wasted to change the name of the benefit (probably not the right word).


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I have just spoken to ATOS and it sounds like I won't have to be reassessed. They have sent all the info back to the benefits office.
> Bit of a let down really, I was sooo up for ripping the shit out of them and my sister in law (retired GP) wanted to sit in as my witness/helper and query everything.
> I await correspondence from the ESA people.


And I think that's why they sent your stuff back to the benefits office 

Seriously, given the seriousness of your condition and the numerous fuck-ups reported in the press, someone's had a common sense moment.

Good for you


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Well done yardie.
> 
> With only 11 recording devices across the whole country, if everyone needing an ATOS assessment requested a recording the system would grind to a halt.


I feel a plan coming on....


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> And I think that's why they sent your stuff back to the benefits office
> 
> Seriously, given the seriousness of your condition and the numerous fuck-ups reported in the press, someone's had a common sense moment.
> 
> Good for you


 
They've bottled it. Articulate bloke who knows his rights *and* has told them that he'll have his own physician with him during the "examination"? They're not touching that with a ten-foot pole!


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They've bottled it. Articulate bloke who knows his rights *and* has told them that he'll have his own physician with him during the "examination"? They're not touching that with a ten-foot pole!


Well, that too


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well, that too


 
Yebbut, my point is, they've bottled it, but *surely*, if they stand by the efficacy of their testing regime and the accuracy of their software, then there's *no reason whatsover* for them to do so?  Is this a (very) tacit and completely unofficial acknowledgement on the part of someone higher up the foodchain that their system can't stand even a low level of informed scrutiny "in the flesh" (as opposed to the Harrington enquiry, where it was paper testimony from both sides)?

Do you see what I'm saying?


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yebbut, my point is, they've bottled it, but *surely*, if they stand by the efficacy of their testing regime and the accuracy of their software, then there's *no reason whatsover* for them to do so? Is this a (very) tacit and completely unofficial acknowledgement on the part of someone higher up the foodchain that their system can't stand even a low level of informed scrutiny "in the flesh" (as opposed to the Harrington enquiry, where it was paper testimony from both sides)?
> 
> Do you see what I'm saying?


Oh, I completely see what you're saying   No worries on that score.

It's just an abomination that there's probably 100 complainants who don't know their rights/have a relative trained in the medical profession for every savvy claimant like yardbird, and it's them I worry about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Oh, I completely see what you're saying   No worries on that score.
> 
> It's just an abomination that there's probably 100 complainants who don't know their rights/have a relative trained in the medical profession for every savvy claimant like yardbird, and it's them I worry about.


 
I agree, but it does provide a chink through which to erode their (contingent) credibility, and that of the DWP (and specifically the minister).


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I agree, but it does provide a chink through which to erode their (contingent) credibility, and that of the DWP (and specifically the minister).


I feel so useless - I want to help more people fight for their entitlement but don't know what to do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I feel so useless - I want to help more people fight for their entitlement but don't know what to do.


 
Any time you pass on a bit of information that helps someone, on here or IRL, you're doing a damn sight more than 99% of people are. Getting the word out matters. Finding and/or pointing out inconsistencies and flaws in policy and practice matter. Highlighting hypocrisy matters.  The media may lay claim to the credit whenever the DWP gets it's arse kicked, but we know that a lot more goes on down at the grassroots that makes *their* grandstanding possible.


----------



## Greebo (May 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Any time you pass on a bit of information that helps someone, on here or IRL, you're doing a damn sight more than 99% of people are. Getting the word out matters.<snip>


^This.


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Any time you pass on a bit of information that helps someone, on here or IRL, you're doing a damn sight more than 99% of people are. Getting the word out matters. Finding and/or pointing out inconsistencies and flaws in policy and practice matter. Highlighting hypocrisy matters. The media may lay claim to the credit whenever the DWP gets it's arse kicked, but we know that a lot more goes on down at the grassroots that makes *their* grandstanding possible.


Thanks VP - and to Greebo and Minnie_the_Minx too. Will continue to put my research skills to some use in fighting the DWP and their idiocy


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Thanks VP - and to Greebo and Minnie_the_Minx too. Will continue to put my research skills to some use in fighting the DWP and their idiocy


 
Are you subsvribed to the _Benefits and Work _site?  Has lots of handy info


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you subsvribed to the _Benefits and Work _site? Has lots of handy info


Yes, and also 'abcofesa', which I've cross-posted to a few times on this thread. 

I really want to find out more about the LIMA software, although atos are doing their damndest to keep it under wraps on the grounds of commercial confidentialty. Which is a bit rich considering how much the contracts are, and the fact that it's based on DWP forms.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, and also 'abcofesa', which I've cross-posted to a few times on this thread.
> 
> I really want to find out more about the LIMA software, although atos are doing their damndest to keep it under wraps on the grounds of commercial confidentialty. Which is a bit rich considering how much the contracts are, and the fact that it's based on DWP forms.


 
Oh right. Can't remember who recommended B&W website to me when I was looking for advice on filling in DLA form, but it was someone on here,  although VP did give me lots of advice on how to word stuff as well, for which I'm forever thankful  as was really panicking it would be turned down and I'd have to appeal


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh right. Can't remember who recommended B&W website to me when I was looking for advice on filling in DLA form, but it was someone on here,  although VP did give me lots of advice on how to word stuff as well, for which I'm forever thankful  as was really panicking it would be turned down and I'd have to appeal


It was probably VP - he really knows his stuff. Sucks to be you DWP


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It was probably VP - he really knows his stuff. Sucks to be you DWP


 
Probably


----------



## yardbird (May 12, 2012)

I've sorted my immediate personal problem of an assessment by ATOS but I ain't going to let it be.
I shall keep my ear to the ground and stay in this thread because of the way I feel about a totally fucked system. Anything I come across of interest, I'll put here - problem is I keep thinking of nasty things to do to ATOS.


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I've sorted my immediate personal problem of an assessment by ATOS but I ain't going to let it be.
> I shall keep my ear to the ground and stay in this thread because of the way I feel about a totally fucked system. Anything I come across of interest, I'll put here - problem is I keep thinking of nasty things to do to ATOS.


You can't help being an instrument of karma, yardbird 

I still think the best thing to do would be for everyone to request recording as per their entitlements. Use their system against them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can't help being an instrument of karma, yardbird
> 
> I still think the best thing to do would be for everyone to request recording as per their entitlements. Use their system against them.


 
And given that their own system requires them to record if you request it, *and* requires their "medical professional" to consent to being recorded, perhaps a spate of requests over the next year or so could produce an (unlikely in their contract calculations) effect by not only putting their whole 11 recorders under strain, but also making the so-called medical professionals think twice about what they're doing, and who they're working for, and deciding it isn't worth the candle.


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And given that their own system requires them to record if you request it, *and* requires their "medical professional" to consent to being recorded, perhaps a spate of requests over the next year or so could produce an (unlikely in their contract calculations) effect by not only putting their whole 11 recorders under strain, but also making the so-called medical professionals think twice about what they're doing, and who they're working for, and deciding it isn't worth the candle.


Of course, we're assuming that they have 11 _working_ recorders - and I suspect they don't. Could be catastrophic for them if even one recorder breaks down.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

Well, looks like it's time for me to start going into panic mode.  Opened the post to find a letter saying to expect a phone call within 2 weeks re:  assessment for ESA  

Only opened letter a few hours ago and am already starting to feel stressed at the idea of another fucking form to fill in 

How long are these forms anyway compared to a DLA one?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

I'm looking through the B&W website at mental health.



> Astonishingly, causing danger to yourself or others frequently does not score enough points
> to be found to have limited capability for work, even though it would clearly make you a
> danger in the workplace


 


This would have been one of my weapons against being suitable for work 

So they could just go and stick someone on a factory floor and expect them to operate stuff safely?   (Not that I think there's many factories in South London, but I'm trying to think what work they think would be suitable for someone with no short-term memory)


----------



## Greebo (May 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well, looks like it's time for me to start going into panic mode. Opened the post to find a letter saying to expect a phone call within 2 weeks re: assessment for ESA <snip>


OMFG! (((Minnie)))


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> OMFG! (((Minnie)))


 
You not got one yet then?  I'm wondering it they're doing it alphabetically, and he's near start of alphabet


----------



## Greebo (May 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You not got one yet then? I'm wondering it they're doing it alphabetically, and he's near start of alphabet


Not yet.  And long may it continue to be that way (please Eris, just do this one thing for me).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Not yet. And long may it continue to be that way (please Eris, just do this one thing for me).


 
See, I'm not sure who Eris is. I've not taken a huge amount of notice about what's been going on due to not wanting the worry as I have enough to worry about. Had my head stuck in the sand a bit, and although I knew his last DLA was awarded indefinitely, I suppose it just gave me a bit of a false sense of security about the IB  even though I knew _indefinitely_ shouldn't be confused with _forever _


----------



## Greebo (May 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> See, I'm not sure who Eris is. I've not taken a huge amount of notice about what's been going on due to not wanting the worry as I have enough to worry about. Had my head stuck in the sand a bit, and although I knew his last DLA was awarded indefinitely, I suppose it just gave me a bit of a false sense of security about the IB  even though I knew _indefinitely_ shouldn't be confused with _forever _


Answering in reverse order because it's easier.  That is so unfair. Yet another bloody form and all the processing it involves just when neither you nor himself need it.  I hope that you get the result you need  without too much (ie, any) hassle or unreasonable delay.

FWIW Eris happens to be a greek goddess who I've got a lot of time for.  It's a long story.  Just file it under "slightly nuts".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

Came across this as well on _Benefits and Work_

_



			Some people may be rather surprised that managing medication – a potentially life-threatening
activity – will only attract a low score whereas dressing and undressing, for example, will attract a
medium score.
		
Click to expand...

_


----------



## Greebo (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Came across this as well on _Benefits and Work_


*raised eyebrow, steepled fingers*  Interesting...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

I can't understand how it works.  Was keeping me awake last night and was up 'til 3.30am reading the _B&W _website.  Looks like he's eligible for the WRAG.

I don't understand the mental health bit and the scoring.  It just doesn't make sense to me.

Fuck this bollocks


----------



## yardbird (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I can't understand how it works. Was keeping me awake last night and was up 'til 3.30am reading the _B&W _website. Looks like he's eligible for the WRAG.
> 
> I don't understand the mental health bit and the scoring. It just doesn't make sense to me.
> 
> Fuck this bollocks


Makes no sense.
Period.
But then Chris Grayling thinks that people with mental health problems ("a bit depressed") just need a pat on the head and some work to "set them on the right path"


----------



## WouldBe (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm looking through the B&W website at mental health.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Things like leaving the gas on and not lighting it or not turning the gas off and putting empty pans back on the ring don't count either. You need to burn the house down before it does or at least that's the impression I got at my tribunal.


----------



## geminisnake (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well, looks like it's time for me to start going into panic mode. Opened the post to find a letter saying to expect a phone call within 2 weeks re: assessment for ESA


 
I think the cnuts deliberatley send  them to arrive on Saturday  I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 13, 2012)

Via Black Triangle.

Dear Friends, FURTHER to our motion passed by our Scottish GP's Conference calling for an end to the DWP Atos Work Capability Assessments with IMMEDIATE EFFECT Black Triangle has ensured that the same motion will be debated at the UK LMC Conference in Liverpool on 23rd May at 11.40 a.m. 

The motion was carried almost unanimously (one objection and a handful of abstentions) at Scottish LMC conference at Clydebank. 

If this passes at Liverpool it will become official BMA policy and will hold positive implications for our fight to prevent PIP assessments following the same format in the wake of the abolition of DLA.

The GMC will be forced to institute a full investigation and under an obligation to take action to halt the assessments by revoking "Approved Medical Status" to testing centres. The motions were submitted by the Scottish LMC Conference and Hampshire and Isle of Wight LMC. Motions 103 & 103a can be viewed here:

http://www.bma.org.uk/images/lmcconfagenda2012_tcm41-212632.pdf
Page 41...



> MEDICAL CERTIFICATES AND REPORTS 11.40
> * 103 HAMPSHIRE AND ISLE OF WIGHT: That conference, in respect of work capability assessments (WCA) as performed
> by ATOS Healthcare, believes that the:
> (i) inadequate computer based assessments that are used have little regard to the nature or complexity of the needs of long term sick and disabled persons
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 13, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> I think the cnuts deliberatley send them to arrive on Saturday  I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??



Aye Gem.. Seems to be a set Saturday 'fuck your weekend right off' delivery day of all their bullshit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Makes no sense.
> Period.
> But then Chris Grayling thinks that people with mental health problems ("a bit depressed") just need a pat on the head and some work to "set them on the right path"


 
Well it's not so much that, but more a case of figuring out *how *to answer the questions. There's no mental health problems, just memory loss, so a lot of the questions, I could answer "yes" to, but only because they're in long term memory before brain injury, whereas others would depend on whether it was something new to learn since brain injury, and also whether it's visual or aural, if that makes sense. For instance, the _setting an alarm clock _question. If it was one with hands, he'd probably be able to do it because he used to have one with hands, whereas if it was with buttons, he'd probably get confused. However, because his visual memory is better, if they showed him how to do it and then *immediately* got him to do it, he may be able to do it, but he might not be able to do it the next day.

_Familiar routes_. Yes, he can go to the shops five minutes away as they're in his long-term memory. He would also know his way to hospital on the bus, but again, that's because King's College is in his long-term memory, not because he goes there a few times a month, but once there, he wouldn't know where he was going. When his consultant asks him how he is and if there's anything to report, then he'll often say he doesn't think so (which is completely wrong), but that's only because he can't remember that he may have had some severe side-effects from medication.

I don't understand the wording in the _B&W _document. Either they've left a word out, badly worded it, or I'm thick.

This is the bit I don't understand. I'm not actually sure if I should be cutting and pasting from the B&W website?

_



			As we’ve already explained, the limited capability for work assessment is a points based
		
Click to expand...

_


> _system for assessing your ability to carry out various activities. If you score enough points_
> _under this assessment you will be eligible to join the work-related activity group (WRAG)._
> _The assessment is made up of a physical health test and a ‘mental, cognitive and intellectual_
> _function’ test._
> ...


 
Is the above saying, that if you score enough points, then you *should *be working?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> I think the cnuts deliberatley send them to arrive on Saturday  I got the letter a few weeks ago(Sat), then last week I got a phone call(Sat am), not had the form yet, maybe that's next Saturday??


 
My brain's aching already


----------



## laptop (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is the above saying, that if you score enough points, then you *should *be working?


 
Not read the whole thing. But that has the smell of Newspeak - trying to convince you that forcing you to work is a "promotion" - "eligible for" and so forth.


> *Work-Related Activity Group*
> 
> If you are placed in the Work-Related Activity Group, you will be expected to take part in work-focused interviews with your personal adviser. You will get support to help you prepare for suitable work.
> In return, you will receive a work-related activity component in addition to your basic rate.
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Things like leaving the gas on and not lighting it or not turning the gas off and putting empty pans back on the ring don't count either. You need to burn the house down before it does or at least that's the impression I got at my tribunal.


 
Well, it's hard for any of that apply to him as the only electrical things he touches are the kettle, tv and toaster.  He knows (because it's now been ingrained into his memory) that he's not supposed to touch the cooker.

I notice there's a bit about preparing food and they now include cold food, not just hot, so yes, he could make himself a sandwich, but if I wasn't there to check the dates on the ham etc. he'd use it without checking date as he has no idea what the date is in the first place.  The only way he has an idea of the date is by looking at the tv page, and that could be open on the wrong day, but because it's a weekly magazine, at least he has an idea (unless he hasn't chucked out a previous week's magazine )


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

laptop said:


> Not read the whole thing. But that has the smell of Newspeak - trying to convince you that forcing you to work is a "promotion" - "eligible for" and so forth.


 
but I'm reading it that if you get *more than 15 points, *you're eligible for WRAG.  Surely the *more *points you get, the *more *difficulty you are having?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> but I'm reading it that if you get *more than 15 points, *you're eligible for WRAG. Surely the *more *points you get, the *more *difficulty you are having?


 
Yes. You need *at least* 15 points to be put in the WRAG group. Less and you're expected to fuck off and get a job. More and there's a *possibility* of being allocated to the "top" group, where they (supposedly) leave you the fuck alone.
Hope that makes things clearer.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Makes no sense.
> Period.
> But then Chris Grayling thinks that people with mental health problems ("a bit depressed") just need a pat on the head and some work to "set them on the right path"


I'm waiting for him to come out with 'just pull themselves together and knuckle down to some hard graft'. Can't be long now. Again, a bit rich considering the easy life most government ministers get - vote for your own pay rise, anyone? 

The knobend.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes. You need *at least* 15 points to be put in the WRAG group. Less and you're expected to fuck off and get a job. More and there's a *possibility* of being allocated to the "top" group, where they (supposedly) leave you the fuck alone.
> Hope that makes things clearer.


 


Not really.

Can you explain the last paragraph to me then



> As we’ve already explained, the limited capability for work assessment is a points based
> system for assessing your ability to carry out various activities. If you score enough points
> under this assessment you will be eligible to join the work-related activity group (WRAG).
> 
> ...


 
Furthermore, on the mental assessment, it says:



> The three ways
> 1. You can be exempt from the assessment and therefore not need to show that you
> score enough points.
> 
> ...


 
but...



> Unfortunately, there are no grounds on which you can be exempted solely because of a
> mental health condition or learning difficulties, no matter how severe. All the grounds relate
> primarily to physical health conditions. They deal with issues such as terminal illness or
> contact with a notifiable disease. However, if you are having inpatient treatment or are in
> ...


 
and



> If you are not exempt from the limited capability for work-related activity assessment, the
> next question is whether any of the descriptors in the assessment apply to you.
> 
> If any one of the descriptors below applies for the majority of the time or for the majority of
> ...


 
It's doing my fucking brain in! 

Each time I think I understand it, I come across something else and I just can't remember the *76 *pages of info that B&W has supplied purely on mental health


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478

Also this thread from the same forum may help - if you register you can get their guide to filling out the form:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1282


----------



## yardbird (May 13, 2012)

I'm gonna check my form (photocopy) to see what I said so as to be totally left alone.
Back after the motor racing.


----------



## laptop (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's doing my fucking brain in!


 
Mine too, clearly. Beg pardon.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:
> 
> http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478
> 
> ...


 
My head's thumping.  I just don't seem to be able to read and take anything in.

> is greater than isn't it?

So anyone older than 75 isn't going to be called in



> Age <12 years
> 
> Both Blind and Deaf
> Registered Blind (needs to be seen in own environment)
> ...


 
Isn't <12 years = under 12 years of age?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> This might help minnie - it's a list of who gets called to assessment based on health conditions:
> 
> http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=478
> 
> ...


 
Does the fullfacts not have the same advice as B&W for filling out the form?

Many thanks for links btw


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

Will have a quick look at the full facts thing as I notice post is about traumatic brain injury, but am going to have to leave it for now as I've been looking at shit for over 3 hours now.  Going off to my sister's for tea and more puppy fun


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Will have a quick look at the full facts thing as I notice post is about traumatic brain injury, but am going to have to leave it for now as I've been looking at shit for over 3 hours now. Going off to my sister's for tea and more puppy fun


 
That tbi post wasn't very helpful, although someone did provide Headway link which I always forget about which can help me with the wording and describing him when filling out forms e.g.



> The *hippocampus*, on the inner surface of the temporal lobe, is an important structure for memory function and it is sensitive to anoxic injury. Memory problems are very common following cerebral anoxia and they may be quite severe.
> Disturbances of speech and language function may occur because of damage to areas of the brain involved in the production and articulation of speech, finding the right words and understanding language. Spoken and written communication may both be affected.
> Damage to the *frontal lobes* may lead to disturbances in *executive function* - the ability to think and reason, to synthesize and integrate complex information and make considered judgements and decisions about what to do in a particular situation. These skills underlie the ability to plan for the future in a sensible way, as well as to function effectively in work and social settings.
> Frontal lobe injury may produce changes in personality, including irritability, poor tolerance of frustration, impulsiveness and impairments in social perception and conduct. There may be apathy and lack of insight, as well as intermittent agitation and mood swings, or more sustained periods of depression. These changes may slow the progress of rehabilitation and make it difficult to achieve a successful return home.


Will be able to jiggle that about a bit so it doesn't sound so professional and like I've plagiarised it from Headway


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Does the fullfacts not have the same advice as B&W for filling out the form?
> 
> Many thanks for links btw


Yes, your interpretation of the maths was correct - no-one older than 75 or younger than 12 will be called for assessment. I'm not sure if the fullfacts will have the same advice - I suspect it does. Both are comprehensive from my reading of them and very helpful and reassuring for those going through this process.

Will continue to see if I can find stuff to help.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, your interpretation of the maths was correct - no-one older than 75 or younger than 12 will be called for assessment. I'm not sure if the fullfacts will have the same advice - I suspect it does. Both are comprehensive from my reading of them and very helpful and reassuring for those going through this process.
> 
> Will continue to see if I can find stuff to help.


 
I misread the younger than 12 as being

anyone younger than 12 with the following conditions:

Both Blind and Deaf
Registered Blind (needs to be seen in own environment)
Cases accepted under the Special Rules defining Terminal illness.
Alzheimers
Amputation of both legs
Asperger's
Autistic Spectrum Disorder / Autism
Cerebral Palsy
Dementia
Hemiplegia
Huntingdon's Chorea
Korsakoffs Psychosis
Macmillan Nurse attending.
Motor Neurone Disease
On oxygen
Paraplegia
Quadraplegia
Renal Dialysis
Severe Mental Impairment
Severe Learning Difficulty
Spastic Diplegia
Tetraplegia
Total Parenteral Nutrition
Unstable Angina
Wernicke's Encephalopathy

and was wondering how anyone under 12 could have half of those conditions 

Not really sure he'd be classed as having any of the above 

Many thanks for links though


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I misread the younger than 12 as being
> 
> anyone younger than 12 with the following conditions:
> 
> ...


Well, I think he may fall in the next list which recommends medical advice be sought on whether or not to call the claimant for assessment.

My concern is that he can't go by himself as even he manages to remember where he's going (I think that unlikely based on what you've told me) he won't remember why he's there and to wait to be seen. Plus, if he doesn't remember to tell his consultant things, he's not going to remember to tell the atos person anything. I just don't see what an assessment could possibly tell atos.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well, I think he may fall in the next list which recommends medical advice be sought on whether or not to call the claimant for assessment.
> 
> My concern is that he can't go by himself as even he manages to remember where he's going (I think that unlikely based on what you've told me) he won't remember why he's there and to wait to be seen. Plus, if he doesn't remember to tell his consultant things, he's not going to remember to tell the atos person anything. I just don't see what an assessment could possibly tell atos.


 
There's no way he'd know how to get there himself or know why he's there.

I'm thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his neuropsychiatrist ahead of his scheduled July appointment, so I can get some better advice on how to explain his condition as it's difficult to explain it on forms without having to write a bloody essay in response to each question.  Maybe with more medical terminonolgy/psychiatry terms chucked in, they'll be better able to understand his condition, although on the other hand, will the computer software?!


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's no way he'd know how to get there himself or know why he's there.
> 
> I'm thinking maybe I should make an appointment with his neuropsychiatrist ahead of his scheduled July appointment, so I can get some better advice on how to explain his condition as it's difficult to explain it on forms without having to write a bloody essay in response to each question. Maybe with more medical terminonolgy/psychiatry terms chucked in, they'll be better able to understand his condition, although on the other hand, will the computer software?!


I thinks that's a good idea, meeting with the neuro guy. I think I posted some links on neuro problems earlier, let me go look...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I thinks that's a good idea, meeting with the neuro guy. I think I posted some links on neuro problems earlier, let me go look...


 

You mean the one with the tbi who was filling in their form?

Only problem is, he's got a new neuropsychiatrist who he's only met once and that was pretty brief, because they've said there's not really anything they can do for him.  They've just not discharged him in case we need any help with him for hospital admissions etc.  Only see them once a year now, more as a courtesy call


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You mean the one with the tbi who was filling in their form?
> 
> Only problem is, he's got a new neuropsychiatrist who he's only met once and that was pretty brief, because they've said there's not really anything they can do for him. They've just not discharged him in case we need any help with him for hospital admissions etc. Only see them once a year now, more as a courtesy call


No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...


 
Cheers eg.  I've had enough of the advice guides for a few days I think.  Can't look anything else up tonight.  Head's still not cleared from headache that started this morning, despite taking two paracetamols 

I need easy reading now


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> No it wasn't that one, it was something from the DWP advising on what to do. Still looking...


I can't find the original link BUT I stumbled across the following one:
http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatosmedicalreport.html

Read the section on Breach of Contract - given the complexities of his condition, he MUST be seen by a practitioner experience in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Cheers eg. I've had enough of the advice guides for a few days I think. Can't look anything else up tonight. Head's still not cleared from headache that started this morning, despite taking two paracetamols
> 
> I need easy reading now


Nae problem, minnie, this stuff is quite heavygoing.

Incidently, the most recent link I posted contains a report as generated by the LIMA software, and contains the excellent phrase ' the patient has a mild brain tumour'  

Way to go atos.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Nae problem, minnie, this stuff is quite heavygoing.
> 
> Incidently, the most recent link I posted contains a report as generated by the LIMA software, and contains the excellent phrase ' the patient has a mild brain tumour'
> 
> Way to go atos.


 


When all the doctors were suspended at b/f's surgery, made appointment with new doctors and discovered he was down as having dementia.   The doctor said "well I'll take that off for a start".  Maybe I should have told her to leave it in!


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> When all the doctors were suspended at b/f's surgery, made appointment with new doctors and discovered he was down as having dementia. The doctor said "well I'll take that off for a start". Maybe I should have told her to leave it in!


I've found the original links, the DWP have an odd way of categorising brain/head injuries. The first link gives (briefly) the types of people competent to give a report on the patient's condition:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/.../organic-brain-disorders/sources-of-evidence/
This link gives guidance on how long benefits should be awarded for, based on the severity of the head injury)bottom table):
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/
This link may help you with the words to write on the form:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...c-brain-disorders/head-injury-intro-obd.shtml
From what you've said, most of the words in the bottom link could be used in your b/f's case.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I can't find the original link BUT I stumbled across the following one:
> http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatosmedicalreport.html
> 
> Read the section on Breach of Contract - given the complexities of his condition, he MUST be seen by a practitioner experience in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment.


 
I ended up reading almost the whole thing!  What bit of "I need easy reading" didn't you get equation girl?   Only joking.    This guy's certainly done his homework hasn't he.

Not sure if this is relevant to cancer (as in any cancer) or neuropsychiatry though as I'm afraid after reading the whole lot, I started drifting off towards the end


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I've found the original links, the DWP have an odd way of categorising brain/head injuries. The first link gives (briefly) the types of people competent to give a report on the patient's condition:
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/.../organic-brain-disorders/sources-of-evidence/
> This link gives guidance on how long benefits should be awarded for, based on the severity of the head injury)bottom table):
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/


http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/

Well he's classed as having _severe short-term memory loss_

This link may help you with the words to write on the form:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...c-brain-disorders/head-injury-intro-obd.shtml
From what you've said, most of the words in the bottom link could be used in your b/f's case.[/quote]

That's fantastic.  He has the majority of those (although luckily not _disinhibition!)_, so that's a great help.  Not sure what this is 

Changes in affect (flat affect, inappropriate emotions and mood)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

PS:  You are a little diamond equationgirl for digging out all this info for me. Although I've done the forms before, no harm having all this info to hand to remind me what to put rather than having to dig around and look at old claim forms, but these links are better at explaining than I am


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> PS: You are a little diamond equationgirl for digging out all this info for me. Although I've done the forms before, no harm having all this info to hand to remind me what to put rather than having to dig around and look at old claim forms, but these links are better at explaining than I am


It's no trouble at all, Minnie, I want to help people as much as I can on this issue. Anything I can help you find just let me know - and giving the DWP stuff back in their own words will make it harder for them to argue back.


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I ended up reading almost the whole thing! What bit of "I need easy reading" didn't you get equation girl?  Only joking.  This guy's certainly done his homework hasn't he.
> 
> Not sure if this is relevant to cancer (as in any cancer) or neuropsychiatry though as I'm afraid after reading the whole lot, I started drifting off towards the end


It's relevant to both, I think, but hey, the guy only had a 'mild brain tumour'.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It's relevant to both, I think, but hey, the guy only had a 'mild brain tumour'.


 
Right, as I was wondering if it was just for cancer, if a tumour has been treated successfully, would they still consider that person as having cancer and therefore need a GMC doctor?

Anyway, I'm going to leave you alone now, mainly because I don't want to go to bed with another headache, but no doubt once I receive the forms, you'll be bombarded (as will VP and Greebo) with questions to help me fill in forms  

I think you can probably do with a rest yourself as well.

I'm thinking I may have to move questions to a _conversation _though and invite people as don't really want to be blabbing all his conditions on public boards 

Wish there was a private forum for this type of thing


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Right, as I was wondering if it was just for cancer, if a tumour has been treated successfully, would they still consider that person as having cancer and therefore need a GMC doctor?
> 
> Anyway, I'm going to leave you alone now, mainly because I don't want to go to bed with another headache, but no doubt once I receive the forms, you'll be bombarded (as will VP and Greebo) with questions to help me fill in forms
> 
> ...


If you want a private 'forum' you can start a conversation and ask whoever you want to join. No-one will see it but who you invite.

Night night lovey x


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> If you want a private 'forum' you can start a conversation and ask whoever you want to join. No-one will see it but who you invite.
> 
> Night night lovey x


 
Yeah, but it can get confusing! Would be easier to just have one where we could have subjects like: Physical, Mental, Cancer, MS, ME etc.

I'm sure I'll cope with conversations, will just have to make sure to give each conversation a proper title like "_please help me fill in form"_ instead of _hello _

I'm not going to bed for a few hours, but I'm having a rest from looking at disability websites.

Have a good night yourself, and many thanks


----------



## Greebo (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, but it can get confusing! Would be easier to just have one where we could have subjects like: Physical, Mental, Cancer, MS, ME etc.
> 
> I'm sure I'll cope with conversations, will just have to make sure to give each conversation a proper title like "_please help me fill in form"_ instead of _hello <snip> _


__
Good idea - makes it easier to find for future reference.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

Took me ages to find that injection one from VP, then I remembered the month I was probably discussing it so that helped


----------



## toggle (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm thinking I may have to move questions to a _conversation _though and invite people as don't really want to be blabbing all his conditions on public boards


 
at least i don't have to worry about that, i have one who shares everything. to everyone. all the time. so by the time i get round to blabbing, it's old news


----------



## purenarcotic (May 13, 2012)

How does one develop a 'mild' brain tumour.  Can one now have a 'mild' case of cancer, much like a mild cold or a bit of a headache?

Lord above.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

toggle said:


> at least i don't have to worry about that, i have one who shares everything. to everyone. all the time. so by the time i get round to blabbing, it's old news


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> How does one develop a 'mild' brain tumour. Can one now have a 'mild' case of cancer, much like a mild cold or a bit of a headache?
> 
> Lord above.


 
Maybe they think a mild tumour is one that can be treated and a major one is one that's going to kill you whilst you're stressing out filling out the form for them


----------



## Greebo (May 13, 2012)

toggle said:


> at least i don't have to worry about that, i have one who shares everything. to everyone. all the time. so by the time i get round to blabbing, it's old news


The Crocodile Dundee approach - go to the bar, tell Wally, Wally tells everyone else.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 13, 2012)

Greebo said:


> The Crocodile Dundee approach - go to the bar, tell Wally, Wally tells everyone else.


 
Maybe he could go to the medical on behalf of everyone


----------



## Greebo (May 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe he could go to the medical on behalf of everyone


It'd certainly be more efficient all round


----------



## equationgirl (May 13, 2012)

purenarcotic said:


> How does one develop a 'mild' brain tumour. Can one now have a 'mild' case of cancer, much like a mild cold or a bit of a headache?
> 
> Lord above.


It's the LIMA software, rather than a medical diagnosis. It's set up to generate sentences based on answers chosen from drop down menus. 

So, for example for the report in question, the patient had declared a brain tumour but it only affected his right side, and he needed a stick to get around. Without seeing the software code I can't say for certain, but it will go something like this:

Menu choices are:
Patient cannot walk for any distance.-------------------------------> software picks 'severe'
Patient can walk 5m.--------------------------------------------------> software picks 'moderate'
Patient can walk 50m.-------------------------------------------------> software picks 'mild'
Patient can walk 200m.------------------------------------------------> software picks 'minimal'

Assessor chooses 'Patient can walk 50m', 

The software then generates sentences based on the choices made so there will be a line in the code that puts the two choices together in a sentence: 

'patient has a <menu choice> <medical condition>'

Which sounds great in theory but by trying to standardise complex medical histories and capabilities for a widely varying set of people, atos have ended up software that produces nonsense - nobody appears to proof-read these before they get sent out.

So in this case, the sentence that got generated was 'the patient has a mild brain tumour', the word 'mild' coming from one of the menu choices picked by the assessor. Pointless


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they think a mild tumour is one that can be treated and a major one is one that's going to kill you whilst you're stressing out filling out the form for them


This guy was pretty sick - and they still passed him as fot for work in 6 months. He appealed on the grounds that atos hadn't used an appropriately qualified assessor and won.

He posted up his report to help others. I salute him.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> This guy was pretty sick - and they still passed him as fot for work in 6 months. He appealed on the grounds that atos hadn't used an appropriately qualified assessor and won.
> 
> He posted up his report to help others. I salute him.


 
Yeah, I read it, and good on him for doing that, as if he hasn't got enough stress already


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> So in this case, the sentence that got generated was 'the patient has a mild brain tumour', the word 'mild' coming from one of the menu choices picked by the assessor. Pointless


 


Wonder how that works when you have multiple conditions

Can walk 50 metres, but has mild peripheral neuropathy/myopathy, mild vascular disease, mild anaemia (despite his anaemia being so severe, if it went any lower, they were talking about blood transfusions)

Facepalm just isn't a good smiley for this crap


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

I also noted in the appearance at his assessment they look for nicotine stained fingers?

Why is that relevant?  Are they going to strike you off next because you're smoking and drinking? 

Maybe they'll be wanting to examine bowels movements next to check on what you're eating


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wonder how that works when you have multiple conditions
> 
> Can walk 50 metres, but has mild peripheral neuropathy/myopathy, mild vascular disease, mild anaemia (despite his anaemia being so severe, if it went any lower, they were talking about blood transfusions)
> 
> Facepalm just isn't a good smiley for this crap


It pretty much doesn't work for multiple conditions, in my opinion, based on what research I've done. 

For the software to work it has to be simplified, so the interdependencies of several medical problems have to be ignored.

Remember, when you're filling out the form, base your answers on his very worst days. It is human nature to be optimistic, and the form seems to be skewed to give very low scores when people give answers based upon their BEST days. To get the 15 points you need to give answers based upon his worst days.

According to one of the forums, they've started sneaking in questions such as 'Do you have holidays?'. Obviously the seriously ill and disabled aren't supposed to be able to afford such fripperies even if they are respite-based. Fuckers. I'm assuming the nicotine-fingers question is along the same lines - maybe they're looking to attribute people's health problems to their lifestyle choices (and possibly deducting points?).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It pretty much doesn't work for multiple conditions, in my opinion, based on what research I've done.
> 
> For the software to work it has to be simplified, so the interdependencies of several medical problems have to be ignored.
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I do try to put down his worst days, although normally he can walk 50m but he's in pain as soon as he starts walking, and you wonder if they get you in for an assessment, if they don't think you *look *in pain (because you're used to it), they might think otherwise.  Also, if they sat him down and asked him if he was in pain, he'll often say no, but then he'll remember his liver's in pain or his back's in pain and that pain is overriding the pain in his feet 

Doesn't help that vascular consultant discharged him last month after latest scan.  Decided he was spending enough time at the hospital and it was pointless coming for scans when his condition hasn't changed since the operations.  Told us to contact them again though if it gets worse.

As for holidays, yes, we're going to Ireland, but we get special assistance at the airport to the departure lounge as the walk is too far and we are picked up at the other end.


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, I do try to put down his worst days, although normally he can walk 50m but he's in pain as soon as he starts walking, and you wonder if they get you in for an assessment, if they don't think you *look *in pain (because you're used to it), they might think otherwise. Also, if they sat him down and asked him if he was in pain, he'll often say no, but then he'll remember his liver's in pain or his back's in pain and that pain is overriding the pain in his feet
> 
> Doesn't help that vascular consultant discharged him last month after latest scan. Decided he was spending enough time at the hospital and it was pointless coming for scans when his condition hasn't changed since the operations. Told us to contact them again though if it gets worse.
> 
> As for holidays, yes, we're going to Ireland, but we get special assistance at the airport to the departure lounge as the walk is too far and we are picked up at the other end.


So when you're talking about his vascular problems, use the word 'stable'. Yes, he's been discharged but that doesn't mean the condition has been cured, it means that it's not progressing or deteriorating.

Given the extremely complex nature of your b/f's health, I'd be very surprised if they call him for assessment - mainly because he needs to be seen by a GMC-registered neuropsychiatrist oncologist vascular specialist which basically won't exist as a skillset in a single doctor. Fingers crossed. Hope you're putting in for a home visit with recording too.

I'm envious of you going on the airport transporter


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2012)

I think the nictoine thing is partially used to assess range of motion in their smoking arm, looking at the atos report from the nice man who posted his.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> So when you're talking about his vascular problems, use the word 'stable'. Yes, he's been discharged but that doesn't mean the condition has been cured, it means that it's not progressing or deteriorating.
> 
> Given the extremely complex nature of your b/f's health, I'd be very surprised if they call him for assessment - mainly because he needs to be seen by a GMC-registered neuropsychiatrist oncologist vascular specialist which basically won't exist as a skillset in a single doctor. Fingers crossed. Hope you're putting in for a home visit with recording too.
> 
> I'm envious of you going on the airport transporter


 
Don't always get that I'm afraid.  Sometimes you do, other times you get the wheelchair which means I get to walk 

Especially with Ryanair.  Depends what you order when booking, and I normally say a wheelchair (with someone pushing it) is sufficient


----------



## WouldBe (May 14, 2012)

If a HCP "can't be arsed" to check for incontinence and as a result the DWP don't believe you, is it acceptable to send the DWP soiled clothing as proof?  


Maybe I should ask how I go about this in my letter to the DWP.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> If a HCP "can't be arsed" to check for incontinence and as a result the DWP don't believe you, is it acceptable to send the DWP soiled clothing as proof?
> 
> 
> Maybe I should ask how I go about this in my letter to the DWP.


 
They'd have to check it for DNA to make sure it's yours though and you haven't just borrowed some


----------



## WouldBe (May 14, 2012)

It can be easily arranged  

E2A: perhaps they could be asked to arrange cleaning and returning of said items as well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> As for holidays, yes, we're going to Ireland, but we get special assistance at the airport to the departure lounge as the walk is too far and we are picked up at the other end.


 
Minnie, Minnie, Minnie!

*That's* not a holiday, *that's* "visiting the family", which is MUCH MORE hard work than going on holiday!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Minnie, Minnie, Minnie!
> 
> *That's* not a holiday, *that's* "visiting the family", which is MUCH MORE hard work than going on holiday!


 
Too bloody right.

5 sisters, two brothers, 14 nephews and nieces and a wedding to slot into the few days that we're there and military precision planning for the trip.  Call that a holiday   And Stansted, aarrrggh


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Too bloody right.
> 
> 5 sisters, two brothers, 14 nephews and nieces and a wedding to slot into the few days that we're there and military precision planning for the trip. Call that a holiday  And Stansted, aarrrggh


 
Well quite! If someone asks me about holidays, I say "none" (in 19 years we've had 2 holidays, 1 in 2008 which was our belated honeymoon, and one in 2011), because I can't see how the stresses of visiting rellies for more than a few hours is any sort of break, for the person with disabilities or their partner and carer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well quite! If someone asks me about holidays, I say "none" (in 19 years we've had 2 holidays, 1 in 2008 which was our belated honeymoon, and one in 2011), because I can't see how the stresses of visiting rellies for more than a few hours is any sort of break, for the person with disabilities or their partner and carer.


 
I hope they don't ask questions like that.  Not sure how I'd explain a holiday in Malaysia (where we got taxis everywhere, and he spent most of the day in the water as it was lovely for him not to have to walk) 

Haven't been anywhere for years (since 2008) though


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I hope they don't ask questions like that. Not sure how I'd explain a holiday in Malaysia (where we got taxis everywhere, and he spent most of the day in the water as it was lovely for him not to have to walk)
> 
> Haven't been anywhere for years (since 2008) though


 
And that's obviously because himself's health hasn't allowed it, isn't it?  In fact, even these dutiful visits to his family really take it out of him, don't they?


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I also noted in the appearance at his assessment they look for nicotine stained fingers?
> 
> Why is that relevant? Are they going to strike you off next because you're smoking and drinking?
> 
> Maybe they'll be wanting to examine bowels movements next to check on what you're eating


 
fwiw, i wasn't asked in mine about *what* i eat (just about where/how i get my food from, cooking ability etc). i did get asked what i drink every day though (in a non-booze sense). can't remember them asking anything about smoking.
the person who came to it with me also got asked to confirm/verify some of my answers (eg how often they see me, what my mood's like. there was one question i took too long in answering, so the hcp just asked my companion instead - proper 'does she take sugar?' moment ).

good luck with it all minnie x


----------



## Jackobi (May 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes. You need *at least* 15 points to be put in the WRAG group. Less and you're expected to fuck off and get a job. More and there's a *possibility* of being allocated to the "top" group, where they (supposedly) leave you the fuck alone.
> Hope that makes things clearer.


 
It doesn't quite work like that. There are two sets of descriptors, one set for the WRAG and one set for the Support Group. Meeting all criteria for each WRAG descriptor (x points) still equates to eligibility for the WRAG. In order to qualify for the Support Group, one or more descriptors relating to that group's eligibility criteria must be met.


----------



## yardbird (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> fwiw, i wasn't asked in mine about *what* i eat (just about where/how i get my food from, cooking ability etc). i did get asked what i drink every day though (in a non-booze sense). can't remember them asking anything about smoking.
> the person who came to it with me also got asked to confirm/verify some of my answers (eg how often they see me, what my mood's like. there was one question i took too long in answering, so the hcp just asked my companion instead - proper 'does she take sugar?' moment ).
> 
> good luck with it all minnie x


I don't think that they can ask direct questions of a companion/helper - everything should have been asked through you and you should be able to consult your companion if needed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> And that's obviously because himself's health hasn't allowed it, isn't it?  In fact, even these dutiful visits to his family really take it out of him, don't they?


 
Well that's the truth, insurance is sky-high for all the conditions he's got!  And yes, the visits do genuinely take it out of him.  The main street in his little town is hilly.  It's only a tiny high street, but my legs are even fucked after going up it a couple of times


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I don't think that they can ask direct questions of a companion/helper - everything should have been asked through you and you should be able to consult your companion if needed.


 
Well they won't get many reliable replies if they rely on his answers


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

Jackobi said:


> It doesn't quite work like that. There are two sets of descriptors, one set for the WRAG and one set for the Support Group. Meeting all criteria for each WRAG descriptor (x points) still equates to eligibility for the WRAG. In order to qualify for the Support Group, one or more descriptors relating to that group's eligibility criteria must be met.


 
I've done the self-assessment test and here's snippets


*HOW DID YOU ASSESS YOURSELF?*
Did you assess yourself as being eligible for the *support group* on the grounds of:
a) Exemption: NO
b) Descriptors: YES
c) Exceptional circumstances: YES

Did you assess yourself as being eligible for the *work-related activity group* on the grounds of:
a) Exemption: NO
b) Points: YES
c) Exceptional circumstances: YES



*WORK-RELATED ACTIVITY GROUP: POINTS*
You assessed yourself as being eligible for the work-related activity group because you scored 15 or more points.
You assessed yourself as *scoring a total of 108 points for the following: *

However, these points may be reduced as I wasn't sure how to answer them.

ie. 15 (b) Is unable to get to a specified place with which the claimant is familiar, without being accompanied by another person. 9
Well he can go to local shops on his own as they're all in his long-term memory as he's lived in the area for years, but although he knows *where *King's College is, once he's there he doesn't know where he's going, despite visiting regularly.

7 (a) Cannot understand a simple message due to sensory impairment, such as the location of a fire escape. 15

Well yes, he could understand it when told, but if the alarm went off, he wouldn't remember where he'd been told it was unless there was a big sign in front of him saying "fire escape that way".  This is the reason whenever he's admitted to hospital, they either give him his own room or put him in a ward in a bed next door to the toilet or one opposite a toilet so he doesn't get lost


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I don't think that they can ask direct questions of a companion/helper - everything should have been asked through you and you should be able to consult your companion if needed.


yep, my companion told them that he wasn't the right person to ask.
just remembered one of the other questions that was a bit 'eh?' - whether i had a mobile, how i pay the bill (as in what method, rather than how i afford it), and who i call on it (and again, my companion got asked how often i rang *them*, even after i'd answered the question). maybe it's not that odd, i don't know any more


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> yep, my companion told them that he wasn't the right person to ask.
> just remembered one of the other questions that was a bit 'eh?' - whether i had a mobile, how i pay the bill (as in what method, rather than how i afford it), and who i call on it (and again, my companion got asked how often i rang *them*, even after i'd answered the question). maybe it's not that odd, i don't know any more


 
Manual dexterity maybe? 

He knows to press and hold No. 2 to contact me.... only because it's written on the back of the phone. Other than that, he doesn't know how to use it, although he did actually manage to dial a number once and was dead proud he'd managed to do it. Never done it since though

Why do they want to know how you pay bill I wonder?


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

i got asked about how i paid household bills as well. 
i'm guessing it's see whether i'm capable of doing basic maths/tasks


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i got asked about how i paid household bills as well.
> i'm guessing it's see whether i'm capable of doing basic maths/tasks


 
Maybe if you say _online _they figure you know your way around a keyboard


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

good point (although they covered that when they asked about my previous jobs).
the whole thing was purely questions-based, and there wasn't a single bit of the 'can you pick a coin up'/'how much can you bend your leg' stuff that i was expecting...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

They're just nosy fuckers


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

i'm on esa for MH stuff, so that'd explain why they didn't concentrate on physical problems, and why just about every other bit of every day life got picked apart. 
i was really glad that someone came with me to it, but it was really humiliating talking about everything (esp some of the darker bits) in front of them. otoh, i disintegrated enough when i got out of there - if they'd not come along, i don't think i'd have actually *got* to the assessment, and don't like to think what i would've been like without them there.


----------



## yardbird (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i got asked about how i paid household bills as well


The correct thing here is for the helping companion to ask if that question is on the LiMA software and what are the drop down options


----------



## Jackobi (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've done the self-assessment test and here's snippets
> 
> 
> *WORK-RELATED ACTIVITY GROUP: POINTS*
> ...


 
This highlights my point, that it is possible to score 108 points for WRAG but still not qualify for the Support Group. Although, it does seem to indicate a strong possibility that WRAG eligibility will be granted, rather than bordering on 15 points in a self-assessment. Depending on how many points the questions you are unsure of score, it appears that he still easily reaches the minimum of 15 points required for WRAG eligibility. Unfortunately, I don't think that self-assessments are an accurate reflection of the actual ATOS process.


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> good point (although they covered that when they asked about my previous jobs).
> the whole thing was purely questions-based, and there wasn't a single bit of the 'can you pick a coin up'/'how much can you bend your leg' stuff that i was expecting...


Trying to lull you into a false sense of security, innit?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i'm on esa for MH stuff, so that'd explain why they didn't concentrate on physical problems, and why just about every other bit of every day life got picked apart.
> i was really glad that someone came with me to it, but it was really humiliating talking about everything (esp some of the darker bits) in front of them. otoh, i disintegrated enough when i got out of there - if they'd not come along, i don't think i'd have actually *got* to the assessment, and don't like to think what i would've been like without them there.


 
How long did it take?  That link to the guy that equationgirl put up (the *minor *brain tumour one) was well over an hour.  I think it was nearer to an 1.5 hours.  Must feel more like an interrogation


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

Jackobi said:


> This highlights my point, that it is possible to score 108 points for WRAG but still not qualify for the Support Group. Although, it does seem to indicate a strong possibility that WRAG eligibility will be granted, rather than bordering on 15 points in a self-assessment. Depending on how many points the questions you are unsure of score, it appears that he still easily reaches the minimum of 15 points required for WRAG eligibility. Unfortunately, I don't think that self-assessments are an accurate reflection of the actual ATOS process.


 
I realise that, and I think B&W does, but I think they're just trying to give you an idea what to expect


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> <snip>i was really glad that someone came with me to it, but it was really humiliating talking about everything (esp some of the darker bits) in front of them. otoh, i disintegrated enough when i got out of there - if they'd not come along, i don't think i'd have actually *got* to the assessment, and don't like to think what i would've been like without them there.


That sounds like an ordeal and a half!  Just as well you had somebody with you, an extra pair of eyes and ears (in case something is lied about on the report) is always useful anyway.

FWIW VP has been close to collapsing at the end of even DLA medicals done at home, which tend to be less bad than (what was) the IB assessment.


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Trying to lull you into a false sense of security, innit?


i'm really not sure - the one i had about three years ago *did* have a bit of physical stuff, which is why i assumed it'd happen again...



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How long did it take? That link to the guy that equationgirl put up (the *minor *brain tumour one) was well over an hour. I think it was nearer to an 1.5 hours. Must feel more like an interrogation


it was about an hour in all. i came out of it feeling brokener (which i didn't think was possible), and assuming that i was going to be put on jsa. in the end, i stayed put in the work related activity group.

edit for clarity: i was on esa a few years back and the atos assessment put me in the WRAG. i started doing voluntary work, then managed (in terms of relatively coping with my condition, and also being lucky enough to be offered a job) to get back into paid work proper, then had a fuckinghugerelapse, couldn't continue with my job, and my esa claim was reopened. the recent assessment i had was in january this year.
i assumed i was going to be put onto jsa because they didn't include any of the physical questions - i thought that this meant they'd already got me down as a 'no' and they didn't see the point in continuing with a full assessment <-- stupid brain.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i'm really not sure - the one i had about three years ago *did* have a bit of physical stuff, which is why i assumed it'd happen again...
> 
> 
> it was about an hour in all. i came out of it feeling brokener (which i didn't think was possible), and assuming that i was going to be put on jsa. in the end, i stayed put in the work related activity group.


 
So do you work now? 

What type of jobs do they send you to?

I reckon himself could get a job rubber-stamping ESA forms


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So do you work now?
> 
> What type of jobs do they send you to?
> 
> I reckon himself could get a job rubber-stamping ESA forms


 
i'm not working at the moment, but i'm trying to get myself to the point where i can - still not quite there.. 
all the WRAG means at the moment is seeing my 'employment advisor' every six weeks. i started seeing him in february, and since then i've managed to start doing a day a week voluntary work (when i told him that, i thought he was going to pat me on the head ). i've also got his ok to try for permitted work (i applied for a 1-day-a-week job but didn't get it), but there doesn't seem to be any pressure from the dwp end of things at all.


----------



## Jackobi (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I realise that, and I think B&W does, but I think they're just trying to give you an idea what to expect


 
I'm sure that you do, and I don't think it is possible to be over-prepared for these sneaky fuckers, good luck.


----------



## toggle (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i'm on esa for MH stuff, so that'd explain why they didn't concentrate on physical problems, and why just about every other bit of every day life got picked apart.
> i was really glad that someone came with me to it, but it was really humiliating talking about everything (esp some of the darker bits) in front of them. otoh, i disintegrated enough when i got out of there - if they'd not come along, i don't think i'd have actually *got* to the assessment, and don't like to think what i would've been like without them there.


 
I went along to bakunin's appeal hearing to support him. i was fine there, but ended up stopping an weebling in a layby on the way home.


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> all the WRAG means at the moment is seeing my 'employment advisor' every six weeks. i started seeing him in february, and since then i've managed to start doing a day a week voluntary work (when i told him that, i thought he was going to pat me on the head ). i've also got his ok to try for permitted work (i applied for a 1-day-a-week job but didn't get it), but there doesn't seem to be any pressure from the dwp end of things at all.


Good to hear that it's more or less worked out alright for you, tufty.


----------



## yardbird (May 14, 2012)

I was alone for my original assessment and it took over an hour - I got a bit shouty.
MS mood swings


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

toggle said:


> I went along to bakunin's appeal hearing to support him. i was fine there, but ended up stopping an weebling in a layby on the way home.


When you no longer needed to be in what I think of as "emergency coping mode".  Well done for keeping it together that long.


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Good to hear that it's more or less worked out alright for you, tufty.


thank you. fwiw i feel immensely guilty for it having worked out alright when other people with far more serious conditions are having a nightmare with it all, or just getting plain fucked over by the system.

keeping various extremities crossed for everyone on the thread x


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was alone for my original assessment and it took over an hour - I got a bit shouty.
> MS mood swings


That's the nature of the condition isn't it?  Any assessor worth their salt ought to have anticipated that as soon as they were told you'd got MS.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

Jackobi said:


> I'm sure that you do, and I don't think it is possible to be over-prepared for these sneaky fuckers, good luck.


 
That's just it.  I seem to have to be doubly-prepared and do double the work as I have to explain that "yes, he would be able to do this because it's pre-brain injury and therefore in his long-term memory" but "no, he wouldn't be able to do this, despite it looking like a 3-year-old child could do it, because it's a new thing to learn and he can't retain any new information until it goes into his long-term memory and that could be anything between hundreds of times if it's something done daily, to years if done daily eg. doing something with tv remote control other than using the volume buttons and number keypad).  Having to explain that shit to every sodding question is enough to give you brainache


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was alone for my original assessment and it took over an hour - I got a bit shouty.
> MS mood swings


 
Were they quaking in their boots or are they just so used to it now?


----------



## toggle (May 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> When you no longer needed to be in what I think of as "emergency coping mode". Well done for keeping it together that long.


 
i would suggest though that ending up in a weebling mess when youy've gone as someon'es support (who coped absolutely fine) is astoundingly embarassing. I forgot to add that last bit to the previous post. bakunin started on a rant about IDS and distracted me a bit.


----------



## yardbird (May 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> That's the nature of the condition isn't it? Any assessor worth their salt ought to have anticipated that as soon as they were told you'd got MS.


No chance.
I told them I was uncomfortable in strange surroundings, frightened and that "this whole business is a nonsense, you are insulting my GP and my neurologist - you're not a neurologist are you?"
Kinda set the tone.


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's just it. I seem to have to be doubly-prepared and do double the work as I have to explain <snip>Having to explain that shit to every sodding question is enough to give you brainache


Word.  I sometimes wonder if the people who make the decisions are tested for a complete absence of imagination, combined with exceptionally low IQ.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

toggle said:


> i would suggest though that ending up in a weebling mess when youy've gone as someon'es support (who coped absolutely fine) is astoundingly embarassing. I forgot to add that last bit to the previous post. bakunin started on a rant about IDS and distracted me a bit.


 
I'm surprised bakunin didn't tell us all about your weebling


----------



## toggle (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm surprised bakunin didn't tell us all about your weebling


 

nope, he's being a good housewife at the moment and doing the washing up.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

toggle said:


> nope, he's being a good housewife at the moment and doing the washing up.


 
best place for men

Oh, now if he's capable of doing the washing up, he really should be out getting a job don't you think?  (Asssessor mode here)


----------



## toggle (May 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> best place for men
> 
> Oh, now if he's capable of doing the washing up, he really should be out getting a job don't you think? (Asssessor mode here)


 

i doubt they will qualify him for anyhting when they change the dla system. i'm hoping that by that time, I will be earning enough that I can support us without the extra. he's starting to sell stuff as well. we will do fine, dosen't mean we stop giving a crap abut this


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

toggle said:


> i doubt they will qualify him for anyhting when they change the dla system. i'm hoping that by that time, I will be earning enough that I can support us without the extra. he's starting to sell stuff as well. we will do fine, dosen't mean we stop giving a crap abut this


 
Good for you.  I give a crap, but don't really post that much about it as I don't want to even think about it, but now I have no choice


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> If a HCP "can't be arsed" to check for incontinence and as a result the DWP don't believe you, is it acceptable to send the DWP soiled clothing as proof?
> 
> 
> Maybe I should ask how I go about this in my letter to the DWP.


I think a month's worth should suffice


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think a month's worth should suffice


 
after drinking lots of Guinness


----------



## WouldBe (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not sure how I'd explain a holiday in Malaysia (where we got taxis everywhere, and he spent most of the day in the water as it was lovely for him not to have to walk)


 
Family member emigrated there.


----------



## WouldBe (May 15, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I don't think that they can ask direct questions of a companion/helper - everything should have been asked through you and you should be able to consult your companion if needed.


 
HCP ignored everything my sister said even if I then agreed and expanded on it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Family member emigrated there.


 
and anyway, that was before he got vascular disease and 3 other new conditions for which he needs treatment


----------



## WouldBe (May 15, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I was alone for my original assessment and it took over an hour - I got a bit shouty.
> MS mood swings


 Just let rip. You should get points for anti-social behaviour. 

I 'bit' my tounge when I had my assessment. Next time I get asked 3 times when I had my MRI scan I shall reply "What fucking part of memory loss do you not fucking understand"


----------



## WouldBe (May 15, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think a month's worth should suffice


 Soiled undies delivered directly to Grayling's or IDS' face would be very satisfying.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Just let rip. You should get points for anti-social behaviour.
> 
> I 'bit' my tounge when I had my assessment. Next time I get asked 3 times when I had my MRI scan I shall reply "What fucking part of memory loss do you not fucking understand"


 
Even *I *can't remember dates of his last MRIs/CTs

I shall tell them how he recently called a 99p Shop security guard a "fucking nazi cunt" after security guard told him to stop sitting on palettes of water bottles 'cos he was too tired to stand up


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> after drinking lots of Guinness


 
And eating a mushroom and cauliflower biryani.


----------



## Psychonaut (May 15, 2012)

I had my medical last week, sat for ages in the waiting room watching the others come & go, then a receptionist said i was waiting because my type of benefit needed a special person to become available which gave me a glimmer of hope.

The HCP was an actual doctor (a psychiatrist i imagine) and he was really sympathetic, seemed to have read the ESA50 carefully beforehand and cut the examination short, very clearly saying it would be OK  i was overcome with relief. still seems weird after all that build up and reading not to be fighting an appeal.

Hopefully this might give some relief to people waiting for the appt, especially with serious mental health conditions. (i vaguely have OCD & some sort of PD on file, not 'official' diagnoses but been in contact with MH services for 10 years about). Dont get TOO relieved though - or you might pass your medical!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> I had my medical last week, sat for ages in the waiting room watching the others come & go, then a receptionist said i was waiting because my type of benefit needed a special person to become available which gave me a glimmer of hope.
> 
> The HCP was an actual doctor (a psychiatrist i imagine) and he was really sympathetic, seemed to have read the ESA50 carefully beforehand and cut the examination short, very clearly saying it would be OK  i was overcome with relief. still seems weird after all that build up and reading not to be fighting an appeal.
> 
> Hopefully this might give some relief to people waiting for the appt, especially with serious mental health conditions. (i vaguely have OCD & PD-NOS on file, not 'official' diagnoses but been in contact with MH services for 10 years about). Dont get TOO relieved though - or you might pass your medical!


 
Yes, but although you've had your medical, what was the outcome?


----------



## Psychonaut (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, but although you've had your medical, what was the outcome?


 
im waiting on the letter, but he said very clearly not to worry, that my ESA would continue etc. and he would be informing them (DWP) to that effect. I have complete faith in his honesty


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> im waiting on the letter, but he said very clearly not to worry, that my ESA would continue etc. and he would be informing them (DWP) to that effect. I have complete faith in his honesty


 
That's reassuring (assuming he is being honest though).

How long did interview take and what kind of questions did they ask you that you weren't expecting?


----------



## Greebo (May 15, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> im waiting on the letter, but he said very clearly not to worry, that my ESA would continue etc. and he would be informing them (DWP) to that effect. I have complete faith in his honesty


Your faith is touching.  I hope it won't turn out to be misplaced.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Your faith is touching. I hope it won't turn out to be misplaced.


 
Quite.  These people by all accounts are probably trained to be slimey bastards so as to gain your confidence


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

but I'm sure you'll be fine


----------



## tufty79 (May 15, 2012)

Psychonaut said:


> im waiting on the letter, but he said very clearly not to worry, that my ESA would continue etc. and he would be informing them (DWP) to that effect. I have complete faith in his honesty


i really hope he was being straight with you. 
*adds to reasons why we should all be requesting our assessments to be recorded*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i really hope he was being straight with you.
> *adds to reasons why we should all be requesting our assessments to be recorded*


 
I remember when b/f's assessment for Freedom Pass came up.  Woman seemed really nice and on seeing the state of his feet (this was when his feet had started changing colour with the vascular disease) even said it looked incredibly painful etc.

Did he get his Freedom Pass renewed?  Did he fuck


----------



## Greebo (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I remember when b/f's assessment for Freedom Pass came up. Woman seemed really nice and on seeing the state of his feet (this was when his feet had started changing colour with the vascular disease) even said it looked incredibly painful etc.
> 
> Did he get his Freedom Pass renewed? Did he fuck


There's a local and very eminent GP on whom I wouldn't piss if he were on fire.  The pack of lies which he wrote down during (and after) VP's DLA medical beggared belief.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> There's a local and very eminent GP on whom I wouldn't piss if he were on fire. The pack of lies which he wrote down during (and after) VP's DLA medical beggared belief.


 
That's the problem.  New GPs new.  His old one (although slightly incompetent when it came to his vascular disease) loved him and gave him almost anything he wanted (within reason).


----------



## yardbird (May 15, 2012)

Thank god my ESA50 did the trick - I don't know how I could have coped with another assessment.
I was very well prepared re recording, witness and everything else that I could think of and it would have been at home.
None the less, the thought of it makes me shudder.


----------



## Greebo (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's the problem. New GPs new. His old one (although slightly incompetent when it came to his vascular disease) loved him and gave him almost anything he wanted (within reason).


This one wasn't VP's GP, it was a GP doing extra work as a BAMS doctor (aka Examining Medical Practitioner).


----------



## Psychonaut (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's reassuring (assuming he is being honest though).
> 
> How long did interview take and what kind of questions did they ask you that you weren't expecting?


 
id have to ask my note-taker for the time, it didnt seem like very long time & dont i think there were any suprise questions - id allready read a list of MH questions from benefitsandwork.co.uk and i suppose we got through about 40%-60% of them. tidying, cooking, shopping, television are the ones i remember. All my answers were quite truthfully 'odd' (for instance i dont possess a television) so i wasnt simply yes and no-ing my way through it. My mother did interject a few times for instance to say that if i hadnt had stayed at her house the previous night and then been accompanied theres no way i would have gotten to the centre at all.

I did a pretty good job on the ESA50, giving lots of supporting examples that had happened recently. and visited a local advocacy centre where they suggested a few amendments for clarity and to ensure there was nothing there that could backfire at a tribunal. The advocacy worker was confident that i would get some points initially, but should expect to appeal. Ive heard they win 90% of appeals so its very importnat that everyone should investigate whether theres a dedicated disabled rights type of group in their area.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> This one wasn't VP's GP, it was a GP doing extra work as a BAMS doctor (aka Examining Medical Practitioner).


 
Oh!

Shit, have just noticed time.


----------



## Psychonaut (May 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Your faith is touching. I hope it won't turn out to be misplaced.


 
Even so, if it gets my mother (note-taker) to stop voting tory then it wont have been a total loss


----------



## Greebo (May 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh!
> 
> Shit, have just noticed time.


See you later.


----------



## tufty79 (May 15, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Thank god my ESA50 did the trick - I don't know how I could have coped with another assessment.
> I was very well prepared re recording, witness and everything else that I could think of and it would have been at home.
> None the less, the thought of it makes me shudder.


i wasn't - all i managed to do wrt preparation was convince myself that i'd have to appeal  it didn't really help either that the person who originally said they'd come with me forgot about it. Twice. When i rang atos to explain i wasn't attending without someone else, they logged my reason as 'transport difficulties'... Luckily i managed to find someone to come with me at very short notice for the rearranged appointment. Oh, i got the telly question too, and don't have one.


----------



## Libertad (May 15, 2012)

Here is a copy of LIMA(version 2) Technical Manual:

http://issuu.com/atosvictims/docs/lima-v2-technical-manual

Hope this can be of some help.


----------



## yardbird (May 16, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Here is a copy of LIMA(version 2) Technical Manual:
> 
> http://issuu.com/atosvictims/docs/lima-v2-technical-manual
> 
> Hope this can be of some help.


Thanks Libertad - shall read with interest


----------



## laptop (May 16, 2012)

Is the manual downloadable somehow?

(Anticipating it possibly disappearing from issuu.com - and it's late...)


----------



## yardbird (May 16, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Thanks Libertad - shall read with interest


I get a bit tired if I have to concentrate too long so I'll take a break, but I love this:

Tip - Observed Behavior is Important.
LIMA is programmed to give more weight to observed behavior than _to either the history or the examination._
(My italics)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 16, 2012)

laptop said:


> Is the manual downloadable somehow?
> 
> (Anticipating it possibly disappearing from issuu.com - and it's late...)


 
Yeah, the text is too small and every time I click on the magnifying glass, I lose it


----------



## yardbird (May 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, the text is too small and every time I click on the magnifying glass, I lose it


I didn't click on it, just used the scrolling wheel and woosh.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 16, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I didn't click on it, just used the scrolling wheel and woosh.


 
Ah, it's alright, I've just been looking at it after expanding the screen

That's a bit worrying about the _observed behaviour _especially if you attend the assessment on a rare good day that you might have rather than an average or bad day


----------



## WouldBe (May 16, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Here is a copy of LIMA(version 2) Technical Manual:
> 
> http://issuu.com/atosvictims/docs/lima-v2-technical-manual
> 
> Hope this can be of some help.


 Interesting.

I didn't see in that any mention that the Lima software would halt an assessment if carried out by a non-GP in cases of neurological problems which I understood it did. 

It also states that "Lima will require you to complete a mental state examination if the claimant has indicated a mental health problem on the IB50". My Hcp "couldn't be arsed" to do the mental exam so I take it that anxiety, panic attack, confusion and aggressive behaviour aren't mental health problems any more.


----------



## WouldBe (May 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Ah, it's alright, I've just been looking at it after expanding the screen
> 
> That's a bit worrying about the _observed behaviour _especially if you attend the assessment on a rare good day that you might have rather than an average or bad day


 Get signed up to a short acting course.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 16, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Get signed up to a short acting course.


 
How does someone with no short-term memory learn these skills?


----------



## yardbird (May 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How does someone with no short-term memory learn these skills?


I write everything down and if I'm lucky repetition makes some of it stick.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I write everything down and if I'm lucky repetition makes some of it stick.


 
This is the point I've been making to friends and rellies for years when they say "why bother reading so many books, you'll just forget what's in them". Well, if I read them 2 to 3 times consecutively, the info filters into my long-term memory, but frankly, that's not something I'm prepared to do with everything I read, just stuff I really *need* to remember.


----------



## WouldBe (May 17, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How does someone with no short-term memory learn these skills?


 He doesn't need to have short term memory just to pretend he has all his worst symptoms at once.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 17, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> He doesn't need to have short term memory just to pretend he has all his worst symptoms at once.


 
Pretending involves thinking


----------



## WouldBe (May 18, 2012)

So his worst symptoms haven't filtered down to his long term memory then?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> So his worst symptoms haven't filtered down to his long term memory then?


 
He knows he gets pain in various places but he'll only mention the one that's bothering him at that particular time, and if he's sitting down, then his legs aren't bothering him


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 18, 2012)

Well I had my "evaluation" today, as for the actual test, i didnt really get any feedback. Will inform you more after the 4/6 week bureaucracy. It was interesting that we spoke for a long while as the examiner wrote many notes on her pc but when my mum started writing notes she was told that anything she wrote down couldnt be used in appeal/court and the examiners name couldnt be used. So if i went alone I'd hardly have anything later on to rely on because of my dyslexia. The test itself was really short and i felt focused on redicules things, I'll just have to see whether they now think i can work because i can touch my index figure and my thumb  but (they actually tested this)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

Disjecta Membra said:


> Well I had my "evaluation" today, as for the actual test, i didnt really get any feedback. Will inform you more after the 4/6 week bureaucracy. It was interesting that we spoke for a long while as the examiner wrote many notes on her pc but when my mum started writing notes she was told that anything she wrote down couldnt be used in appeal/court and the examiners name couldnt be used. So if i went alone I'd hardly have anything later on to rely on because of my dyslexia. The test itself was really short and i felt focused on redicules things, I'll just have to see whether they now think i can work because i can touch my index figure and my thumb  but (they actually tested this)


 
So you talked for a long while but the physical test was really short?

You can't even use the examiner's name?  I assume they introduce themselves, or you're just not allowed to use it in any appeal?


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 18, 2012)

Yeah she had a name badge on, she just seemed slightly uncomfortable when my mum pulled out her pen and pad, then read to us some stuff regarding documenting it which was mainly just, write if you want(for your reference) but it's meaningless beyond that , she then just reiterated the fact that had we given prior notice they would have provided recording equipment. Typically i was having a really good day physically as always with these things.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 18, 2012)

Disjecta Membra said:


> Yeah she had a name badge on, she just seemed slightly uncomfortable when my mum pulled out her pen and pad, then read to us some stuff regarding documenting it which was mainly just, write if you want(for your reference) but it's meaningless beyond that , she then just reiterated the fact that had we given prior notice they would have provided recording equipment.


 
and I wonder how long you have to wait for that then considering they only have 11 machines for 140+ centres?


----------



## Disjecta Membra (May 18, 2012)

Lol, really ! I had to wait an hr today, anyway if they deem me capable to do data inputting or some such i'll basically just be transfered to JSL getting the same money and they'll struggle to find me anything so it just kinda goes on i guess.


----------



## WouldBe (May 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He knows he gets pain in various places but he'll only mention the one that's bothering him at that particular time, and if he's sitting down, then his legs aren't bothering him


 Put drawing pins in his shoes when he has to go for assessment.


----------



## WouldBe (May 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So you talked for a long while but the physical test was really short?
> 
> You can't even use the examiner's name? I assume they introduce themselves, or you're just not allowed to use it in any appeal?


 The examiners name will be on the report to the DWP which you're entitled to have a copy of.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> The examiners name will be on the report to the DWP which you're entitled to have a copy of.


 
Is that in any circumstances or only if you have to appeal?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is that in any circumstances or only if you have to appeal?


 
That's in *any* circumstances. In fact you can request himself's records on his behalf, as long as you include a "letter of authority" signed by himself, giving you permission to do so.
As with any request you send to the DWP, send it recorded delivery, and keep copies, though.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

I've just had the call!

Asked me if I was the representative of Mr Blah Blah, and asked a few security questions.

Asked if I'd received letter informing of changes etc. and was told I would receive new form within 7-10 days and need to return it within 30 days.

Asked if it would a qualified doctor looking at forms and she said yes. Asked if he had a medical assessment would it be a qualified doctor or a nurse carrying it out. She said to make sure his condition was explained on form and if he got pulled for an assessment to make sure you request for a doctor. I asked if it would be a doctor who understands brain damage and she just said it would be a qualified doctor.

Funnily enough, she didn't ask to speak to him so he could authorise for me to speak on his behalf which often happens with utilities companies etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2012)

Disjecta Membra said:


> Yeah she had a name badge on, she just seemed slightly uncomfortable when my mum pulled out her pen and pad, then read to us some stuff regarding documenting it which was mainly just, write if you want(for your reference) but it's meaningless beyond that , she then just reiterated the fact that had we given prior notice they would have provided recording equipment. Typically i was having a really good day physically as always with these things.


 
Hi DM. your HCP was talking shite. While they can compel you to exclude their name, the whole "you can't use the notes at a tibunal" _schtick_ is bull. here's the "official line" from the "Training & Development ESA Handbook" given to HCPs (apologies for the length):

*********​ 
Taking of Notes during an Examination by Claimant or Companion

From time to time you may encounter a situation where the claimant is
accompanied by a companion and either the claimant or companion may wish to
take notes during the assessment.
Persons who are entitled to be in attendance are always entitled to take notes.
This is because it is for their own purposes and not an official record of the
process.
To attempt to deny the right to do so is likely to be contrary to Human Rights
legislation.

To request a copy of the notes is unlikely to be helpful – it will place you in the
position where you will be obliged to review the notes and comment on their
reliability. However, you should record in the medical report, the fact that notes
were being taken. The following warning should also be given and the fact
documented in the report. LiMA will offer the phrases as an optional addition.
For any handwritten report, on the rare occasions when this is necessary, the
report should be annotated on the front cover.
Medical Services
ESA Handbook 1 Final
MED-ESAHB~001 Page 120

The form of words you should use has been clarified on legal advice. Please
replace any copies of existing desk aids you hold with the one incorporating the
following form of words:
“ Where notes are taken by you, we consider it of assistance to both myself, as
the examining practitioner, and yourself to point out the following:
1. It is your right to take notes for your own use and benefit.
2. The notes will not be included in the Report I make save for the fact that notes
were taken and further, *they are not accepted by myself or the DWP as an official*
*record of this examination*.
3. *If the notes are subsequently produced at any time for any purpose, such as*
*part of an appeal process, I the Examining Practitioner, my employer and the*
*Dept of Work and Pensions reserve all rights to challenge anything in the notes in*
*the event we are asked to comment on the content of the notes at a future time*.
4. You are free to use your notes as you choose but if you chose to publicise the
notes (other than in connection with correspondence with the DWP or under any
appeal procedure) I would ask that you do not publicise my name." (my emphases)

*********​ 
So, what your HCP was representing as your notes being useless, not accepted, that they "couldn't be used", is actually only the reservation of the HCP and their employer of their right to *challenge* your notes at an appeal or tribunal.

So, well done to your mam for taking notes, and fuck the lying bastards of the ATOS/DWP axis.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Put drawing pins in his shoes when he has to go for assessment.


 
Minnie does that anyway, purely for giggles.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Minnie does that anyway, purely for giggles.


 
That phone call has totally thrown me and now I can't remember if I gave him his pills


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2012)

Just what is it with their Saturday phone calls and mail deliveries? I've had instances of both.  (((Minnie and Mr. Blah Blah)))


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Just what is it with their Saturday phone calls and mail deliveries? I've had instances of both.  (((Minnie and Mr. Blah Blah)))


 
Yep, form came on a Saturday as did this call.  They obviously want to ruin your weekend 

And what are Jobcentre staff doing working on a Saturday anyway other than ruining your weekend.

Oh, I also asked her if he had a medical assessment where would it be held.  She just said probably somewhere near to your local job centre.  I'm not convinced as I'm sure I've heard of people travelling miles for their assessment.


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2012)

Go for a home assessment and ask for the recording equipment Minnie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Go for a home assessment and ask for the recording equipment Minnie.


 
He's capable of getting to one if it's near public transport. Furthermore, it *may *be better having one away from home as going out will tire him out and surely that works to his advantage? 

Being at home, relaxed and not tired may give a false impression whereas if he has to go out they'd have more idea of how it affects him?


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2012)

Yep, you're probably right. It's disgusting that we have to play these games.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Yep, you're probably right. It's disgusting that we have to play these games.


 
The more tired and stressed he gets affects how confused and stroppy he gets


----------



## Libertad (May 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The more tired and stressed he gets affects how confused and stroppy he gets


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Yep, you're probably right. It's disgusting that we have to play these games.


 
Isn't it.  His neuropsychiatrist has always said he shouldn't get stressed as it'll affect his memory, what about ME?!!


----------



## culder (May 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> For everyone on disability - an excellent post from Sue Marsh's blog 'Diary of a Benefit Scrounger':
> 
> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/04/its-all-in-your-head.html#comment-form


 
Fantastic blog!


----------



## Greebo (May 19, 2012)

culder said:


> Fantastic blog!


Saw that entry a couple of weeks ago, but well worth a read if you haven't already done so.


----------



## culder (May 19, 2012)

Hi Greebo, and everyone else.

One of my problems is connecting with people, and it's got a lot worse since the whole ATOS thing started. As a result, I hardly ever switch my computer on these days, and I'm out of touch with almost everyone - including my own family on Facebook (the ones who don't live close by, like my daughter and my sister). Every now and then I feel able to switch on so that I can catch up with everyone, but of course it takes ages because I've left it so long.

Still nothing happening with my appeal yet. I did talk to Welfare Rights the other day, and they asked me to send them a copy of my ATOS medical report so that they could have a look and see what needs to be discussed. I had two copies anyway (because the DWP sent me a second one by mistake - nothing like wasting tax-payers' money!), so I passed one on to Welfare Rights and they said they'll contact me in the next week or so, to arrange a time to talk it through with them.

That will at least feel like progress! They also asked me to phone the DWP to find out where my appeal is in the system, but all I've had so far is, "Thank you for holding, your call will be answered as soon as possible..." Gah!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 19, 2012)

culder said:


> That will at least feel like progress! They also asked me to phone the DWP to find out where my appeal is in the system, but all I've had so far is, "Thank you for holding, your call will be answered as soon as possible..." Gah!!


----------



## audiotech (May 22, 2012)

'UK GP conference to vote on Work Capability Assessment "with immediate effect".'


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 22, 2012)

Anyone see this from the B&W website



> Last week saw an attack on the site by a national newspaper.  We’re giving no details yet as we’ve complained to the editor and will, as in the past, refer the matter to the press complaints commission if necessary.
> 
> On Sunday the site slowed down considerably because all the publically accessible pages were being downloaded by a crawler company which specialises in finding and analysing comments about its multinational clients. Their clients can then take action to protect their reputations.  We have now blocked the crawler company’s access.


----------



## Greebo (May 23, 2012)

culder said:


> <snip>Still nothing happening with my appeal yet. I did talk to Welfare Rights the other day, and they asked me to send them a copy of my ATOS medical report so that they could have a look and see what needs to be discussed. I had two copies anyway (because the DWP sent me a second one by mistake - nothing like wasting tax-payers' money!), so I passed one on to Welfare Rights and they said they'll contact me in the next week or so, to arrange a time to talk it through with them.
> 
> That will at least feel like progress! They also asked me to phone the DWP to find out where my appeal is in the system, but all I've had so far is, "Thank you for holding, your call will be answered as soon as possible..." Gah!!


Hello culder,  I hope you don't have to wait much longer.  FWIW it's worth going through with the appeal.  Not just for the money (which you need), but for the principle of the thing and to have the DWP acknowledge that you really are as ill as you've said.


----------



## Greebo (May 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone see this from the B&W website


Thanks for the heads up - hardly got online at all yesterday because the laptop & dongle overheated.  And then, even the front page of urban timed out far too often.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> 'UK GP conference to vote on Work Capability Assessment "with immediate effect".'


 
Agree with the comments, in that I doubt it'll make much difference how they vote, as ATOS/DWP don't give a shit


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

*UK GPs Conference to vote on ending the Work Capability Assessment “with immediate effect”*

*The motion is going to be debated and voted upon by UK Conference tomorrow morning, Wednesday 23rd May 2012, at 11.40 a.m. *

*UPDATE*:
 *MOTION CARRIED UNANIMOUSLY!    *


Let's see what happens now...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> *UK GPs Conference to vote on ending the Work Capability Assessment “with immediate effect”*
> 
> *The motion is going to be debated and voted upon by UK Conference tomorrow morning, Wednesday 23rd May 2012, at 11.40 a.m. *
> 
> ...


 

nothing?


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

Give it time Minnie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Give it time Minnie.


 
Who would listen to them, the Government/DWP or Atos?


----------



## yardbird (May 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Who would listen to them, the Government/DWP or Atos?


Anything and everything that stirs things up is good though.


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

Why not get in touch with Black Triangle and see what you can do to help minnie. I'm sure your local medical committee would appreciate your support.


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

DP and massive machine crash too..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Why not get in touch with Black Triangle and see what you can do to help minnie. I'm sure your local medical committee would appreciate your support.


 
I'm a bit busy at the moment


----------



## tufty79 (May 23, 2012)

good news on the gp (edit: not gmc, grr my stupid brain) vote


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, I also asked her if he had a medical assessment where would it be held.  She just said probably somewhere near to your local job centre.  I'm not convinced as I'm sure I've heard of people travelling miles for their assessment.


when i lived in lambeth  (brixton/streatham hill)
 the assessment was at balham, maybe a couple of minutes from the station.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> good news on the gmc vote
> when i lived in lambeth (brixton/streatham hill)
> the assessment was at balham, maybe a couple of minutes from the station.


 
Oh, that's ok then.  Cheers tufty. Let's hope it's not moved


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> good news on the gp (edit: not gmc, grr my stupid brain) vote
> when i lived in lambeth (brixton/streatham hill)
> the assessment was at balham, maybe a couple of minutes from the station.


 
Used to be (probably still is) Irene House.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Who would listen to them, the Government/DWP or Atos?


 
It's not a solution, but what it is, is momentum. With a unanimous (or as near as damn it) vote by the LMCs of the UK, it's far harder for the GMC to disregard any motions at their AGM. In fact it's likely that they'll shape policy in order to fall in line with the sentiments of their members.
Will ATOS and/or the DWP listen to the professional trade association for doctors? They won't have much choice if the doctors decide _en bloc_ that it's not ethical to work for ATOS. ATOS can't function on a staff of superannuated nurses and physios, and neither can the DWP.


----------



## panpete (May 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> 'UK GP conference to vote on Work Capability Assessment "with immediate effect".'


 
Thanks but link doesn't work


----------



## panpete (May 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> *UK GPs Conference to vote on ending the Work Capability Assessment “with immediate effect”*
> 
> *The motion is going to be debated and voted upon by UK Conference tomorrow morning, Wednesday 23rd May 2012, at 11.40 a.m. *
> 
> ...


Brilliant, does that mean an end to this ridiculous farce that has made many people's health even worse?

E2A sorry I cannot get the links to work.


----------



## Mungy (May 23, 2012)

http://web2.bma.org.uk/pressrel.nsf/wlu/SGOY-8UKJUY?OpenDocument&vw=wfmms


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

panpete said:


> Brilliant, does that mean an end to this ridiculous farce that has made many people's health even worse?
> 
> E2A sorry I cannot get the links to work.


 
Not yet Panpete. 

BTriangle seem to have problems with some browsers not able to access their site.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not a solution, but what it is, is momentum. With a unanimous (or as near as damn it) vote by the LMCs of the UK, it's far harder for the GMC to disregard any motions at their AGM. In fact it's likely that they'll shape policy in order to fall in line with the sentiments of their members.
> Will ATOS and/or the DWP listen to the professional trade association for doctors? They won't have much choice if the doctors decide _en bloc_ that it's not ethical to work for ATOS. ATOS can't function on a staff of superannuated nurses and physios, and neither can the DWP.


 
True.  Who exactly pays the doctors that ATOS uses though?  Are they paid more for doing this job?  I don't really know how it works


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> True. Who exactly pays the doctors that ATOS uses though? Are they paid more for doing this job? I don't really know how it works


 
The doctors tend to be contractors, the "healthcare professionals" (i.e. the nurses and phsyios etc ewho're assessing about 80% of people/prodding them through the tick-boxes on the computer) appear to be direct hires.
Pay-wise, it's good pay for them (i.e. more than they could make at agencies/as locums), and it isn't shiftwork.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 23, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The doctors tend to be contractors, the "healthcare professionals" (i.e. the nurses and phsyios etc ewho're assessing about 80% of people/prodding them through the tick-boxes on the computer) appear to be direct hires.
> Pay-wise, it's good pay for them (i.e. more than they could make at agencies/as locums), and it isn't shiftwork.


 
Would they be eaning more working for them then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2012)

Maybe not more, but there's very few jobs in the medical field that don't involve shiftwork, so some of hem are going to be totally in love with working 9 - 5 for ATOS.


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 23, 2012)

These are vacancies at Atos:

http://www.sjbmedical.com/

And the page where the link came from:

http://www.atoshealthcare.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogsection&id=11&Itemid=287

Seems nurses are on about £32k and I believe docs get £45k+


----------



## panpete (May 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Not yet Panpete.
> 
> BTriangle seem to have problems with some browsers not able to access their site.


I am using IE but I will try it in google

The GP's want rid of WCA pretty pronto though eh?


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, that's ok then. Cheers tufty. Let's hope it's not moved


 
It's still there. I had my medical there a few months ago. Was really strange cause I was the only one there. Apart from the receptionist and I,  the place was empty.


----------



## panpete (May 24, 2012)

I tried google and internet explorer browsers and I still cant access black triangle.
Are you guys using firefox?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 24, 2012)

panpete said:


> I tried google and internet explorer browsers and I still cant access black triangle.
> Are you guys using firefox?


 
I am


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I am


 
Me too.


----------



## Frankie Jack (May 24, 2012)

panpete said:


> I tried google and internet explorer browsers and I still cant access black triangle.
> Are you guys using firefox?



Yep.


----------



## culder (May 24, 2012)

Hi Greebo 

I've now got an appointment with Welfare Rights to discuss it all. It's not till the middle of July, but I'm guessing they're pretty bogged down with it all these days. And don't worry, I certainly won't give up! As you say, the principle is the important thing, here.


----------



## treelover (May 27, 2012)

'URGENT! Give the lawyers YOUR story! MHRN get hearing for Judicial Review of WCA on June 29th
by JJ 
An application has been made by members of the Mental Health Resistance Network for permission to have a Judicial Review of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and a judge has decided that there should be a hearing to decide whether to grant us the Judicial Review.
The hearing will happen at the Royal Courts of Justice in the Strand in London on Friday 29th June. We won’t know until the day before what time it will be heard.
We URGENTLY NEED YOUR STORY: PLEASE CLICK ON THE LINK: HERE 
We can assist to get your experience of the DWP/AtoS Work Capability Assesment (WCA) to the legal team if you post in the thread. We will ensure that YOUR STORY will be entered into the 'bundle' that the lawyers are 'Armed' with when they enter into court to argue the case.
SO, PLEASE MAKE CONTACT WITH US! Justice cannot be achieved without YOUR help!

It is MHRN who have pushed this through, not any big charity -remember most activism is coming from grassroots groups-rather than well funded charities who like to try to claim the credit.
Note: links may not work for BT users if that is the case go to BlackTriangleCampaign Facebook page

Lets support MHRN as much as we can with this great achievement on 29th June-hopefully the first of many challenges to the corrupt WCA


mental health activists given hearing about option to challenge the draconian WCA, add your stories...

btw, I attended the Royal Courts for the hearing against NICE organised by people with M.E, I saw just how 'justice' is not equally balanced, PWME has a poor pro bono lawyer and sick people researching, NICE/The Govt has teams of laywers, researchers and a 'top class' barrister(but not a top guy!) and a judge who clearly knew what part of society he was from, the establishment, so I don't hold out much hope for them, but good luck..


----------



## panpete (May 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'URGENT! Give the lawyers YOUR story! MHRN get hearing for Judicial Review of WCA on June 29th
> by JJ
> An application has been made by members of the Mental Health Resistance Network for permission to have a Judicial Review of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and a judge has decided that there should be a hearing to decide whether to grant us the Judicial Review.
> The hearing will happen at the Royal Courts of Justice in the Strand in London on Friday 29th June. We won’t know until the day before what time it will be heard.
> ...


 
Hi Treelover

Thank you for posting this link.
This explains why I cannot access black triangle, as I am a BT user.
Sorry to sound dumb, but I am a tranquiliser addict reducing valium under the supervision of my Doctor, and also supported by the specialist charity Battle Against Tranqulisers.

Although I have not yet migrated to ESA from IB and not had medical, can I still post?

As I am a BT user I have gone to facebook, but don't quite know where to post.
I am also paranoid that any information I post will get back to the DWP. (I know this is paranoid but paranoia is a symtpom of tranquliser withdrawl.

This whole welfare reform thing has really set me back as I am paranoid that because I have an occupational pension of £460 a month (medicallly retired on grounds of ill health), and I have a repayment mortgate, if found fit for work (many blatantly obviously unfit people have been found fit) I may end up losing my home, and that wioll obviously make me more ill.

Thanks again


----------



## audiotech (May 28, 2012)

Despite recognising the fact that I have a "disability and, or health condition" this shower have stopped my benefits, so I now have no income as well! How very compassionate of them. Frustratingly, it's likely civil service union members are the ones implementing and telling me this.​


----------



## panpete (May 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Despite recognising the fact that I have a "disability and, or health condition" this shower have stopped my benefits, so I now have no income as well! How very compassionate of them. Frustratingly, it's likely civil service union members are the ones implementing and telling me this.​


I'm really sorry to hear this audio.


----------



## treelover (May 30, 2012)

Really sorry to hear that, audio, its appalling and obscene...


----------



## audiotech (May 30, 2012)

The DWP bod I spoke to said: "I don't understand this". "Nor do I" was the response.

Looking at some legal advice it's possible they've fucked-up. I do hope so.

A 2nd appeal will be going in to run concurrently with the first, yet to be heard.

Meanwhile, Atos are in my sights.


----------



## panpete (May 30, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The DWP bod I spoke to said: "I don't understand this". "Nor do I" was the response.
> 
> Looking at some legal advice it's possible they've fucked-up. I do hope so.
> 
> ...


Best of luck with it audiotech.


----------



## Quartz (May 30, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Despite recognising the fact that I have a "disability and, or health condition" this shower have stopped my benefits, so I now have no income as well! ​


 
 How are you managing?


----------



## culder (May 30, 2012)

Sorry to hear of your problems, Panpete and Audio.

But can I just say, Audio, that I really don't think Civil Service unions have anything to do with it. This is about a government that wants to save money by reducing the income of people who are ill, because it's so much easier to kick people when they're down. It's also quite easy for them to make it look as though it's someone else's fault...

It's the policy-makers you need to take issue with, not the people who are doing a job that's suddenly become repugnant to them.


----------



## culder (May 31, 2012)

_"Meanwhile, Atos are in my sights."_

I'm with you there! I've been stuck in this limbo of a life since the beginning of the year, and this shit is still in my head every day. I used to believe that I was a reasonable, easy-going person, but now I find myself wanting to see that so-called medical professional stripped of her qualifications. At the very least, I want to know why this nurse would rather ruin people's lives than help to save them. That woman is very much in my sights.


----------



## audiotech (May 31, 2012)

I know what is at fault here culder. With regards to any union member carrying out these measures? I said it's "frustrating" and it is still.


----------



## panpete (May 31, 2012)

culder said:


> Sorry to hear of your problems, Panpete and Audio.
> 
> But can I just say, Audio, that I really don't think Civil Service unions have anything to do with it. This is about a government that wants to save money by reducing the income of people who are ill, because it's so much easier to kick people when they're down. It's also quite easy for them to make it look as though it's someone else's fault...
> 
> It's the policy-makers you need to take issue with, not the people who are doing a job that's suddenly become repugnant to them.


Thanks culder. 
I hope you are not having too many difficulties.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 31, 2012)

culder said:


> _"Meanwhile, Atos are in my sights."_
> 
> I'm with you there! I've been stuck in this limbo of a life since the beginning of the year, and this shit is still in my head every day. I used to believe that I was a reasonable, easy-going person, but now I find myself wanting to see that so-called medical professional stripped of her qualifications. At the very least, I want to know why this nurse would rather ruin people's lives than help to save them. That woman is very much in my sights.


 
If you *weren't* normally a "reasonable, easy-going person", I doubt you'd be wanting justice quite so badly.
That's what the majority of people wanting this stopped are: reasonable people who've been pushed by shoddy standards and government stupidity into needing justice. Most of us aren't naturally vengeful people.


----------



## memorex (May 31, 2012)

Hi, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread with links, information and advice. My partner has just gone through an Atos assessement and this tread has really helped us to get clued up about what to expect and how to deal with it.

It turned out OK for us, but I don't feel particularly great about that with so many good people being harrassed in this inhumane way. I sincerely hope it turns out well for everyone on here. Meanwhile we are doing what we can to pass on what we've learned and also to make people not directly affected by disability issues more aware of what is going on. Thanks again, and good luck to all of you.


----------



## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

culder said:


> _"Meanwhile, Atos are in my sights."_
> 
> I'm with you there! I've been stuck in this limbo of a life since the beginning of the year, and this shit is still in my head every day. I used to believe that I was a reasonable, easy-going person, but now I find myself wanting to see that so-called medical professional stripped of her qualifications<snip>


FWIW Culder you know what made me so abrasive, cynical, and able to spot a trick question at 200 yards?  The DSS, jobcentre, Benefits Agency, and their successors.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 31, 2012)

memorex said:


> Hi, I just wanted to say thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread with links, information and advice. My partner has just gone through an Atos assessement and this tread has really helped us to get clued up about what to expect and how to deal with it.
> 
> It turned out OK for us, but I don't feel particularly great about that with so many good people being harrassed in this inhumane way. I sincerely hope it turns out well for everyone on here. Meanwhile we are doing what we can to pass on what we've learned and also to make people not directly affected by disability issues more aware of what is going on. Thanks again, and good luck to all of you.


 
Don't feel guilty of success. All you and your partner have done is secured justice. *No-one* should feel guilty about getting that, or be made to feel guilty by others about getting that. Me, I say "bloody good show! and congratulations"!!


----------



## audiotech (May 31, 2012)

Had the opportunity to quote legal advice today to a DWP manager, who then said they would take it away and discuss it in a team briefing, as they weren't aware of it! Then told to go home by an employment advisor, as I wasn't "fit for work".

1-0 to the home team. 

<retires to bed exhausted>


----------



## audiotech (Jun 12, 2012)

Advice on recordings of Atos assessments and the importance of why? Because (its become obvious now and on the record ), Atos will then ensure that an 'experienced, well qualified Doctor' is chosen for the assessment.


----------



## spirals (Jun 14, 2012)

Had a phone call from them on the 12th asking me to go for a medical with them. I explained that I was unable to  attend as I am virtually house bound and that my conditions mean I am on the 'tentatively invite for a medical' list and I want a home visit. The lady tells me I need to get my gp to write to them saying I require a home visit and I explained I have an app coming  soon with my gp which is only 2 days before the app they want me to go to is and that it won't be enough time to get it organised. She agrees and says she will phone back to arrange  a date for my medical in about a weeks time. Only this morning a letter arrives from them asking me to go for a medical    They haven't stuck to what was agreed to at all  And I'm meant to trust them to deal with my case honorably?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2012)

spirals said:


> <snip>And I'm meant to trust them to deal with my case honorably?


No.  Ring them up about this.  The DWP letter may have hit the post before your phone call, seeing as they send everything 2nd class.

Tell them that you're still going to get a GP's letter requesting a home visit, and that you'll be sending a letter (1st class signed for, of course) to confirm the contents of the phone call (including at least the first name of the person you're speaking to, plus time and date of the call).  

You shouldn't have to do this, and it's unfair, but sometimes you need to do more than what's fair to get the result you're after.


----------



## spirals (Jun 14, 2012)

I phoned them up and told them that it wasn't what had been agreed on during the phonecall. I told them I would still be requesting a home visit, that I wanted it recorded and I would be having a witness. I asked them if the call had been recorded as I had been lied to and asked how on earth I was meant to trust them to deal with the information on my many and complex conditions when they couldn't even stick to a simple agreement over making an appointment. I am now waiting for a manager to call me back because apparently the lady I spoke to wasn't 'the right station' to be able to deal with my complaint. I also told them that I would be putting a complaint in writing.

I really, really don't need this at the moment


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2012)

(((Spirals))) I know you don't need this.  It's unfair and it's cruel.  OTOH come the day of the home visit, at least you'll have very good grounds for an appeal, if the person doing the medical writes that there's next to nothing wrong with you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

spirals said:


> I phoned them up and told them that it wasn't what had been agreed on during the phonecall. I told them I would still be requesting a home visit, that I wanted it recorded and I would be having a witness. I asked them if the call had been recorded as I had been lied to and asked how on earth I was meant to trust them to deal with the information on my many and complex conditions when they couldn't even stick to a simple agreement over making an appointment. I am now waiting for a manager to call me back because apparently the lady I spoke to wasn't 'the right station' to be able to deal with my complaint. I also told them that I would be putting a complaint in writing.
> 
> I really, really don't need this at the moment


 
Don't know what to say.  Haven't even got that far myself and feeling stressed at the mere thought of it.

Hope those idiots get you sorted soon


----------



## spirals (Jun 14, 2012)

And they didn't phone back by 6 as promised so I've phoned them up again and I'm adding that to my complaint and am going to asked to be compensated for the amount of time I've had to spend on the phone sorting out their mistakes.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Someone, I've yet to find out who and what medical expertise they have, overruled a letter from my GP requesting a home visit.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

spirals said:


> And they didn't phone back by 6 as promised so I've phoned them up again and I'm adding that to my complaint and am going to asked to be compensated for the amount of time I've had to spend on the phone sorting out their mistakes.


 
The first letter of complaint I sent Atos, they stated they hadn't received it. I don't believe that for a moment. I have now sent them a copy, so that's two formal complaints in.

Also, despite stating that they enclose pre-paid envelopes for your reply. They didn't on the first occasion with me.

Any expenses for travelling, ensure you ask at reception, because Atos won't tell you about this on the day of your assessment. Well, they didn't me. I had to ask and was given a form to fill.

Remember too. If you go to a Medical Assessment Centre, Atos employees, not just the examiners, will be monitoring you, from when you first set foot in the grounds, nevermind the actual centre itself and they will still be monitoring you even when the medical assessment is over.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Put in a formal complaint. I have. The first letter I sent Atos. They stated they hadn't received it. I don't believe that for a moment. I have now sent them a copy, so that's two formal complaints in.


 
Did you send it recorded delivery?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Someone, I've yet to find out who and what medical expertise they have, overruled a letter from my GP requesting a home visit.


 


FFS.  What's the point of having proof/GPs anything, if they just ignore it all.  Suppose you need it all though for the inevitable appeals process

I've still not received forms to fill in


----------



## spirals (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Put in a formal complaint. I have. The first letter I sent Atos. They stated they hadn't received it. I don't believe that for a moment. I have now sent them a copy, so that's two formal complaints in.


 
I will do, a manager finally called back, an hour and a half later than arranged and told me that I had been given the wrong information and apologised. I pointed out their mistake had caused a lot of stress and asked how I could trust what they told me in the future and he more or less said tough. If you want to take it further you can and gave me a number to call. I am going to complain in writing and  I will send a letter to my mp at the same time.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS. What's the point of having proof/GPs anything, if they just ignore it all. Suppose you need it all though for the inevitable appeals process


You've just answered yourself - prepare for the worst while hoping for the best.


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've still not received forms to fill in


Print them off the net and start working on the answers?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Did you send it recorded delivery?


 
No. I'm not paying those costs.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You've just answered yourself - prepare for the worst while hoping for the best.


 
Well I knew that!  Why do you think I've been stressing for weeks 

Print them off the net and start working on the answers?[/quote]

Short on ink.  Used the last dribble on printing my boarding pass 

Could work on them obviously by just typing answers into a word document as a lot of what I write will be typed anyway as my wrists hurt too much to write and I lost writing ability years ago due to too much typing, but I'm trying to avoid it, even though I know, the earlier I start, the more time I'll have


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> No. I'm not paying those costs.


 
Perfectly understandable, but it is proof you sent it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The first letter of complaint I sent Atos, they stated they hadn't received it. I don't believe that for a moment. I have now sent them a copy, so that's two formal complaints in.
> 
> Also, despite stating that they enclose pre-paid envelopes for your reply. They didn't on the first occasion with me.
> 
> ...


 
What about travel reimbursement for people accompanying claimant?  Bet they don't pay those!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS. What's the point of having proof/GPs anything, if they just ignore it all. Suppose you need it all though for the inevitable appeals process


 
I asked my GP if he would phone the Medical Centre and he kindly did, later phoned me at home to state that he had tried to get through three times, on the third time he was cut off. I rang Atos to complain and the person on the phone initially said a prior arrangement had to be made for a GP to talk to an Atos practicianer (no notice of this procedure has been given in writing, nor relayed verbally to me before), then she began to question what my GP had told me, I can only take that as this Atos employee was questioning both my GP and my honesty (that's in the complaint). I gather the Local Authority have had recent words with Atos, with regards to their "customer services".


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Perfectly understandable, but it is proof you sent it


 
A free proof of posting slip will suffice.


----------



## yardbird (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Someone, I've yet to find out who and what medical expertise they have, overruled a letter from my GP requesting a home visit.


Pursue this, because I don't think that they can overrule your GP in an offhand fashion.
I said home visit, and told them a list of people (neurologist, physio nurse, outreach nurse, and occupational therapist) who said I needed it. I also requested/demanded recording.
Is there anyone else in the loop who can add to your home visit request?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What about travel reimbursement for people accompanying claimant? Bet they don't pay those!


 
Always ask.


----------



## yardbird (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What about travel reimbursement for people accompanying claimant? Bet they don't pay those!


I think they have to pay travel for a helper/carer.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

Well I'm hoping it's local, as I'd imagine you'd have to fill in reams of paper to reclaim your fare


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Pursue this, because I don't think that they can overrule your GP in an offhand fashion.
> I said home visit, and told them a list of people (neurologist, physio nurse, outreach nurse, and occupational therapist) who said I needed it. I also requested/demanded recording.
> Is there anyone else in the loop who can add to your home visit request?


 
Too late. I was forced there and Atos took great delight in making note of my attendance on the reply to my complaint. Cover all bases.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A free proof of posting slip will suffice.


As proof that it was sent, but it doesn't prove that the form arrived at their end.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> As proof that it was sent, but it doesn't prove that the form arrived at their end.


 
Fair point, but I can prove it's been sent at least.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> A free proof of posting slip will suffice.


 
No, it won't. I can tell you exactly what they'll say, because they used the same excuse on me:
"That only proves you posted *something* to us. We didn't get it, so nerrr". (okay, so the "so nerrr" was poetic licence on my part!)

That's why it's important (even though it cost nearly a quid more) to send anything you post to them by "signed for"/recorded delivery: They have to sign for it, which acknowledges receipt.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 14, 2012)

I was a postal worker, so I know about such things VP. Presently, it will have to suffice for me, with back-up copies of course.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> As proof that it was sent, but it doesn't prove that the form arrived at their end.


 
Exactly

They could say it was lost in the post with proof of posting. Can't do that with recorded

Oops, noticed VP's already explained that to audio


----------



## Quartz (Jun 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Perfectly understandable, but it is proof you sent it


 
Is that still correct? I thought it had to go Special Delivery to be considered as proof.


----------



## culder (Jun 14, 2012)

Hi everyone.

I hardly know what to say about what everyone's dealing with. In one way it's great that this thread is here for us all, but in another way it's disgraceful that it should be necessary.

I am, as always, still waiting. Way back in January, when I was told that I had 0/15 points, I knew immediately that I had lost 2012. A couple of weeks ago I started seeing a counsellor, not for my depression, but to help me cope with this appeal. The depression will have to wait.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

Not sure if it's been renamed Recorded Signed For, or if that's something different?

http://www.royalmail.com/delivery/business-delivery-options-uk/recorded-signed


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 14, 2012)

culder said:


> Hi everyone.
> 
> I hardly know what to say about what everyone's dealing with. In one way it's great that this thread is here for us all, but in another way it's disgraceful that it should be necessary.
> 
> I am, as always, still waiting. Way back in January, when I was told that I had 0/15 points, I knew immediately that I had lost 2012. A couple of weeks ago I started seeing a counsellor, not for my depression, but to help me cope with this appeal. The depression will have to wait.


 
You wonder what the true figures are for people getting ill dealing with this process


----------



## culder (Jun 15, 2012)

We'll probably never know, Minnie.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 15, 2012)

Not even this shower in government can ignore what's happening and the more these tragic cases come to light, the more the public will see they have been told a lie. I've had an inkling (from a source) that more people, given certain circumstances, will be placed into the 'Support Group'. They will still have to go through further assessments over time, but at the present, for a variety of reasons, the WRAG is not really an option for some now. The option that I've had intimated to me, as a "hypothetical" is a choice between the WRAG, with the extra supplement made for work related activity, or the 'Support Group' surviving on £71? There's a lot of ifs here, but, if so, it looks as though the government are getting rattled by some of the horror stories of very ill people being found "fit for work", and the mounting toll of deaths (32 a week of those who are found fit for work) and suicides (103 the last figure I read, directly attributed to decisions made by the DWP). Even this lot in power understand how far they can go, before a reaction from the public, a reaction that may affect their vote. People who work in the DWP, particularly front-line staff IMHO, are increasingly concerned at these reforms. Oh and the appeals system is in log-jam of course,


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Not even this shower in government can ignore what's happening and the more these tragic cases come to light, the more the public will see they have been told a lie. I've had an inkling (from a source) that more people, given certain circumstances, will be placed into the 'Support Group'. They will still have to go through further assessments over time, but at the present, for a variety of reasons, the WRAG is not really an option for some now. The option that I've had intimated to me, as a "hypothetical" is a choice between the WRAG, with the extra supplement made for work related activity, or the 'Support Group' surviving on £71? There's a lot of ifs here, but, if so, it looks as though the government are getting rattled by some of the horror stories of very ill people being found "fit for work", and the mounting toll of deaths (32 a week of those who are found fit for work) and suicides (103 the last figure I read, directly attributed to decisions made by the DWP). Even this lot in power understand how far they can go, before a reaction from the public, a reaction that may affect their vote. People who work in the DWP, particularly front-line staff IMHO, are increasingly concerned at these reforms. Oh and the appeals system is in log-jam of course,


 
How much have you seen in the papers about Karen Sherlock's death?  What about Paul Mickleburgh who's had four kidney transplants and 14 heart attacks?  Can't find anything about him except Scottish Newspapers. 

I do remember seeing on Twitter that Sonia Poulton was going to bombard editors etc.



> Am bombarding editors/producers with Karen Sherlock's story. WAKE UP MEDIA...Sick and disabled should not be stressed to take care of basics


 
They're keeping very quiet.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 15, 2012)

It's all over the internet.

The media have been reporting some of what's been happening. Karen's and Paul's case they can't ignore, if they are?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 15, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It's all over the internet.
> 
> The media have been reporting some of what's been happening. Karen's and Paul'scase they can't ignore for much longer, if they are?


 
Yeah, all over the internet, but not everybody goes to Disabled/Benefits/Welfare websites.  Then again, not everyone reads papers either 

Google News results for Karen Sherlock

https://www.google.co.uk/search?hl=....,cf.osb&fp=971925b5000f317b&biw=1252&bih=572


----------



## audiotech (Jun 15, 2012)

I don't read newspapers these days, nor watch TV (well, on-line I do, at my choosing). More people should do the same and seek out independent sources that give the facts, not agenda driven dross, or tittle tattle. Hang on, more people are. 

Edit: The welfare benefit changes going on are being shared on social networks, to people who usually don't go to campaigning web-sites necessarily, or maybe they do?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 17, 2012)

One million pound bonus for Atos CEO. Total earnings for year: £1.95 million.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...sickness-benefit-test-company-86908-23896877/


----------



## Greebo (Jun 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> One million pound bonus for Atos CEO. Total earnings for year: £1.95 million.
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...sickness-benefit-test-company-86908-23896877/


I need another dartboard.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 18, 2012)

audiotech said:


> One million pound bonus for Atos CEO. Total earnings for year: £1.95 million.
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/p...sickness-benefit-test-company-86908-23896877/


Fucker


----------



## culder (Jun 19, 2012)

Bloody disgraceful.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 19, 2012)

Greebo said:


> I need another dartboard.


 
Pfft, get one of these


----------



## nastybobby (Jun 21, 2012)

My sister was the victim in a particularly nasty accident on xmas eve 1998, when a 5 times 'over the limit' driver [who died at the scene] 'rear ended' her car at over 100 mph.

She suffered 2 broken hips, a fractured arm and some deep lacerations to her legs. She will eventually need both hips replacing, but she's too young, so she has to endure constant pain, limited mobility and difficulty both sitting and standing for extended periods. Plus, there's the side effects of being on very strong pain medication, which leaves her feeling nauseous and upsets her digestion, so she attempts to manage her pain on less medication than she needs, which often means she's short tempered.

The independent medical reports at the time stated that she wouldn't be able to continue in her career [nursing] and because of her massively reduced mobility [she walks with a stick and struggles to walk more than about 100 yards without a rest] and pain she'd struggle to find and 'hold down' a job for the rest of her life. Her compensation payout reflected this, but this was 14 years ago and she's never had anything remotely approaching an extravagant lifestyle.

In November 2011 she attended an ATOS medical, despite all the up to date medical evidence she provided regarding her condition, they awarded her ZERO points!

Naturally she appealed and gathered even more evidence from her GP/specialist etc. Every person she talked to about the decision couldn't believe it and found it absurd. Yesterday, her appeal was granted and they awarded her 18 points. Everyone told her this would be the outcome, but the stress and upset of having to go through all this would have been difficult for a reasonably healthy person, never mind someone who is genuinely ill.

So, I've posted this for everyone who is in a similar position. If you are genuinely ill and you believe ATOS have fucked you over, then appeal, it may be extremely stressful until the appeal is sorted, just try and hang on in there. All my family told her not to worry, that this would be the result. It's all the people out there who don't have friends and family to support them that I genuinely feel sorry for, I dread to think what could've happened to my sister if she'd have been on her own through all this. She was left without any money at all around last xmas when the DWP fucked her JSA claim up.

I don't know how these ATOS swine sleep at night, I really don't. I'm wondering if they are actually some kind of cyborg, 'cos they certainly aren't human.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 21, 2012)

nastybobby said:


> In November 2011 she attended an ATOS medical, despite all the up to date medical evidence she provided regarding her condition, they awarded her ZERO points!


 
That's disgusting and seems to be becoming the norm

Sorry t ohear about your sister

Why was she on JSA?  Is that what they stuck her on when she was awarded nil points?


----------



## nastybobby (Jun 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Why was she on JSA? Is that what they stuck her on when she was awarded nil points


 
Think it was JSA, seem to remember she had to 'sign on' for a while, even though she was appealing ATOS' decision and getting 'sick notes' from her GP. Unless this was what caused the fuck up with the DWP around last xmas and she should have/could have been on a different benefit. Know we all had to chip in to make sure Santa arrived for my niece and nephew, 'cos despite daily phone calls to the DWP there was about a 3 week period between her being kicked off the DLA and getting whatever benefit she got where she had no income at all [apart from her family allowance, I think]. I mean, it wasn't a massive surprise that she was found to be 'fit for work' by ATOS and she 'failed' the medical, that does seem to be the norm whatever the illness/disability now, it was the nil points bit that really riled her, that was just a very sick joke.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2012)

Almost as a matter of course, they award 0 points. It's wrong, and the appeals process is now groaning under the number of appeals going through, especially as well over half are upheld.

Sorry to hear about your sister, nastybobby, I'm glad she managed to get through the hell of all this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 22, 2012)

and once you get through all this, the PIP will be next

Will it ever end


----------



## Quartz (Jun 22, 2012)

I wonder, have ATOS et al been subject to any sort of audit?


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## WouldBe (Jun 23, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Almost as a matter of course, they award 0 points.


There's no point having ATOS then.


----------



## Quartz (Jun 23, 2012)

nastybobby said:


> In November 2011 she attended an ATOS medical, despite all the up to date medical evidence she provided regarding her condition, they awarded her ZERO points!


 
Disgraceful.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Disgraceful.


 
Of course, but with the excellent "cut-out" for both Atos and the DWP, that "it's the computer that decides".
That the computer program isn't fit for purpose (see equationgirl's posts on this and other threads and _Private Eye_ veritably _ad nauseam_ on the subject) and isn't designed to accommodate the breadth of response given by people being "tested" is neither here nor there, according to the pustulent muppets in Parliament.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> There's no point having ATOS then.


 
Except maybe as decorations for a fuck-off big bonfire in the middle of Parliament Square, perhaps?


----------



## tommers (Jun 23, 2012)

One of my clients went for an assessment at the end of may. From this they gave him 0 pts.  They stopped his esa from 6th June but didn't even write to tell him until the 12th.

He said the nurse didn't have any of his medical history.  We contacted them to appeal and his care co-ordinator and myself wrote supporting letters.

He got a sicknote from his gp, which was also faxed over by his cpn.

They contacted him to say the sicknote is not accepted unless faxed by a jobcentre.

We did this. They came back to say it needed to be backdated to when the benefit stopped.

We went back to the gp. They wouldn't issue a backdated sicknote without the dwp letter saying when the benefit stopped.

This man has a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia, alcohol and gambling addictions, multiple drug addictions, is hep b & c positive, has sleeping and eating disorders and only has (impaired) sight in 1 eye. He has had no income for 3 weeks and can't get a crisis loan because he has already had 3 in 12 months.

It's unbelievable that they act in this way. Fair enough if the computer says no, but at least put him on JSA or something till it's sorted out - don't just stop everything. The guy is talking about killing himself.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 23, 2012)

tommers said:


> <snip>It's unbelievable that they act in this way. Fair enough if the computer says no, but at least put him on JSA or something till it's sorted out - don't just stop everything. The guy is talking about killing himself.


Iniquitous.

Being treated like that would be enough to tip somebody completely well and able-bodied over the edge, let alone a person who has so many things to cope with at the same time.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

tommers said:


> One of my clients went for an assessment at the end of may. From this they gave him 0 pts. They stopped his esa from 6th June but didn't even write to tell him until the 12th.
> 
> He said the nurse didn't have any of his medical history. We contacted them to appeal and his care co-ordinator and myself wrote supporting letters.
> 
> ...


 
It's not fair enough for *anyone* to say no, not based on what the Atos "examinations" turn up. The old IB med exams could be (and often were) arbitrary, but this "drop-down menu"-based approach to decision-making is murderous. If your client dies, despite any verdict at an inquest, he'll have effectively been murdered by Atos.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jun 23, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> If your client dies, despite any verdict at an inquest, he'll have effectively been murdered by Atos.



He will have effectively been murdered by ATOS in a conspiracy involving ministers in the current and previous government, large numbers of people in the media, and everyone who uncritically accepts all the bullshit politicians spout about incapacity and disability benefits.

For the record, I repeat from previous posts on various threads. Over the 1990s the Labour Force Survey shows a steady increase in the number of people being treated for stress related illnesses whilst still working. This precedes the increase in claims for incapacity benefit for stress related illness. This is information published by the government that should as standard practice be briefing material for ministers. This isn't something they can reasonably claim to be ignorant of. Despite this the response of ministers to the increase in stress related IB claims was to call it evidence of widespread abuse of the system. Implying that hundreds of thousands of people had spent several years faking illness and fooling their GPs in order to claim IB five to ten years later. In the last decade the Labour Force Survey has had an additional comment in this section. It says that the data must be wrong because "mental health morbidity" has not increased at the same time. It is then linked to data on the suicide rate.

The simple fact is that you can't constantly increase the difficulty of finding affordable housing and increase job insecurity without putting people under increased stress. Unfortunately that is a politically unacceptable fact. So it is lied about. Everybody who lies about it is, to some extent, culpable in every death that results from a system designed to deal with illness and disability by harassing the sick and disabled.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and once you get through all this, the PIP will be next
> 
> Will it ever end


 
2008 it all started (Employment Tribunal) and four years on it's still unrelenting (Welfare Tribunal, with two appeals in.). More, or less, the exact same things were happening in the early 80's, with an Employment Tribunal, when I was sacked whilst on the sick and then a subsequent appeal against a DWP decision to stop my then Invalidity Benefit. The first time tragedy, the second time a bloody nightmare.


----------



## tommers (Jun 23, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not fair enough for *anyone* to say no, not based on what the Atos "examinations" turn up.



Yeah, I phrased that wrongly. I'm just amazed that you can have all benefit stopped for doing nothing wrong.  And they don't even tell you till a week after. How the fuck did they decide this was the right way to do it? 

I mean, all the bureaucracy is frustrating and annoying but that beggars belief.


----------



## culder (Jun 24, 2012)

The horror stories continue. How can this possibly continue?

_it was the nil points bit that really riled her_

Same here. A couple of points short of the required amount, and you might wonder where you failed to get a point across, explain something properly, that sort of thing. Zero points feels like a rejection of me as a whole, and immediately puts me on the defensive in everything that happens as a result of it.

I don't know how this can be acceptable in terms of human rights.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 24, 2012)

culder said:


> <snip>I don't know how this can be acceptable in terms of human rights.


Now you know why Cameron wanted to stop the European Court of Human Rights being able to overturn UK law.  I said there was something like this coming.  Just call me Cassandra.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jun 25, 2012)

Spent much of yesterday trying to calm down a friend who has just been informed that Lambeth will be reclaiming an (as yet) unspecified debt of £900 from her Income Support. She's been in receipt of benefit for the last five years at least, with an unbroken claim, so how she can owe Lambeth any money at all is curious, but no doubt Greenock DWP will, as is now usual, simply take money off the benefits without questioning it.

We have no human rights. The law now longer applied to benefit claimants.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 25, 2012)

I picked up form a while ago and decided it's time to start tackling it. Have filled in first 3 pages (ie. name, address, contact details, dates you can't go to an assessment and "*about your illnsses or disabilities"*. (Summary version which took up the whole page ) and I've not even put in that he needs a walking stick 

*squeezes use of walking stick in at bottom of page*


----------



## ash (Jun 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I picked up form a while ago and decided it's time to start tackling it. Have filled in first 3 pages (ie. name, address, contact details, dates you can't go to an assessment and "*about your illnsses or disabilities"*. (Summary version which took up the whole page ) and I've not even put in that he needs a walking stick
> 
> *squeezes use of walking stick in at bottom of page*


 
Are you talking about ESA if so there is an online form that you can use that gives you more space to put things in.  They have a link on the benefits and work website I am not sure if the DWP has a link to it, I imagnie they will??


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 25, 2012)

ash said:


> Are you talking about ESA if so there is an online form that you can use that gives you more space to put things in. They have a link on the benefits and work website I am not sure if the DWP has a link to it, I imagnie they will??


 
Yeah, Greebo (I think) told me about online version but I forgot, but not to worry as I'm just adding loads of A4 sheets to end of report. Lucky I saved them all when I did his last DLA assessment form, so just adding latest events to those. Currently reading through medical documents from beginning of January 2011 so I don't miss anything out (even though a lot of it's not now relevant, but at least it's there for his *Medical Conditions *page) 

To save me even bothering to write anything on pages 4 and 5, all I've written is *See Flag A *and *B*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 25, 2012)

That's 3 hours dedicated to form so far (done 6 pages of medical history and explaining his treatment, although 4 pages of it is explaining the last year which I doubt they'll even bother reading).

On to *Page 4* next:  *Details of Tablets, Medication of Special Treatment, About Your GP and Does Anyone Else Provide you with Care, Support or Treatment, *and then *Page 5:  Hospital or Clinic Treatment.*

I'm going to time how long this takes me.

3 solid hours today though, and that's enough for now I think.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> <snip>*squeezes use of walking stick in at bottom of page*


FWIW the last time that VP had a DLA medical the doctor was almost packing up her form and reading out loud the summary of impairments and other health problems when she asked "Is there anything else wrong with you?"

It was at this point that I realised she'd been sat opposite VP and talking to him for the best part of 45 minutes and hadn't realised that he's partially deaf.  Tbf she was very complimentary about his lipreading after he remembered to mention his hearing impairment.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> FWIW the last time that VP had a DLA medical the doctor was almost packing up her form and reading our loud the summary of impairments and other health problems when she asked "Is there anything else wrong with you?"
> 
> It was at this point that I realised she'd been sat opposite VP and talking to him for the best part of 45 minutes and hadn't realised that he's partially deaf.  Tbf she was very complimentary about his lipreading after he remembered to mention his hearing impairment.


 



Didn't he list hearing impairment then?  

I reckon everyone who receives this form should take note of how long they fill in just so people realise that's it's not a 5-minute job


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Didn't he list hearing impairment then?
> 
> I reckon everyone who receives this form should take note of how long they fill in just so people realise that's it's not a 5-minute job


He listed it on the form, but when the doctor turned up for the medical, she asked him to say everything which was wrong with him. So he listed stuff which he was the most aware of first. Having been half deaf from his late teens, he sort of doesn't think of it as a problem, except that it's made worse by other stuff.  

BTW good idea about saying how long filling in the form takes.  I'll try to remember to do that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> He listed it on the form, but when the doctor turned up for the medical, she asked him to say everything which was wrong with him. So he listed stuff which he was the most aware of first. Having been half deaf from his late teens, he sort of doesn't think of it as a problem, except that it's made worse by other stuff.
> 
> BTW good idea about saying how long filling in the form takes. I'll try to remember to do that.


 

Yeah, I think it's worth taking note of the time to show these assessors/DWP that a simple tick form doesn't near enough cover the complexity and variations of conditions most people have


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

Another full hour on listing outpatient appointments and hospital admissions in the last year.  That's 15 minutes shy of 5 hours today.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

I planned on finishing for the night, but have just spent another hour on it, so almost six hours today


----------



## Greebo (Jun 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I planned on finishing for the night, but have just spent another hour on it, so almost six hours today


They should pay us by the hour for filling in those damn things.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

I may be roping a few of you in today now for the difficult bits!

Depends on the weather though


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 26, 2012)

Greebo said:


> They should pay us by the hour for filling in those damn things.


The DLA form I've just filled in took me just over 3 months to fill in. Kerching.


----------



## yardbird (Jun 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> The DLA form I've just filled in took me just over 3 months to fill in. Kerching.


I find it difficult to concentrate for extended periods and DLA form took forever.
Very tiring to do and it made me super paranoid in case I missed something.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> The DLA form I've just filled in took me just over 3 months to fill in. Kerching.


 


How many hours though?

and I thought you only got 6 weeks to do it?


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How many hours though?


No idea.



> and I thought you only got 6 weeks to do it?


I received the form in the middle of May.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> No idea.
> 
> 
> I received the form in the middle of May.


 
  Indeed


Did you ask for an extension?


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Indeed
> 
> 
> Did you ask for an extension?


A new kitchen?  

No mention of asking for an extension or a deadline in the accompanying letter just "send it back asap".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> A new kitchen?
> 
> No mention of asking for an extension or a deadline in the accompanying letter just "send it back asap".


 
Oh, I'm positive you only have six weeks.  Well if it does say six weeks, you could say your illness gives you memory problems and you forgot


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 26, 2012)

Absolutely no mention of 6 weeks in my latter.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Absolutely no mention of 6 weeks in my latter.


 
Wonder where I got that from then?  I'm positive I was told to return last one by a set date 

Maybe it's because it was an ongoing claim that would run out 6 weeks from new arriving?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2012)

According to 'Benefits and Work': "The Video they didn't want you to see...."


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> According to 'Benefits and Work': "The Video they didn't want you to see...."





Can't watch it at the moment.  Can I have a summary please?

Quite funny actually as I've just been going through old PMs related to filling in last DLA form


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

Not to worry.  I have the B&W email in my inbox


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

From _*Benefits and Work*_



> *Helen Goodman: * My constituent was treated for breast cancer in July 2010. She was deemed fit for work by Atos before the post-op results were received. The tribunal found in her favour and awarded her employment and support allowance in January 2012. However, her ESA entitlement was stopped in April because of the introduction of the government’s 365-day rule. She was reassessed in May 2012 and found fit for work again. Her employer has held her job open but cannot re-employ her until she is deemed fit for work by her doctor. This is obviously extremely bad for her health. Will the Minister agree to meet me about this case?
> 
> *Chris Grayling:*It is obviously very difficult to talk about an individual case, and I am afraid that I make it a matter of policy that ministers do not become involved in individual cases. What I would say is that it is extremely important that we provide support for all cancer sufferers who can potentially return to work to do so at the earliest opportunity. *That is much better for them than being stuck at home on benefits*.


 
How about being stuck at home _*recovering*_ from a gruelling illness

TWUNT


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Well, the video makes it seem like a jolly day out, although there's no mention of picnics or ginger beer.

I was ok with the video, right up until it showed the 'friend' stabbing the guy in the back in front of the Tribunal panel. If I took someone with me in to a tribunal, and they turned round and said 'I know EG said it's her back, but I really think she's depressed' I would NOT be a happy bunny at all!!! I think it's no coincidence that someone with a back problem is being portrayed as_ someone who could work really_, given that there was something in the press about back problems being a common reason for claiming. Plus, the lack of understanding towards mental health was staggering.

A good idea, poorly executed, in my opinion.

Sometimes, the pain from my back is so acute it takes my breath away, but hey, I'm just depressed, right?


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> From _*Benefits and Work*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, what a fucktard 

Although, clearly ATOS have decided that 'recovering from cancer' = 'lazy feckless workshy malingerer'.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2012)

> Sometimes, the pain from my back is so acute it takes my breath away, but hey, I'm just depressed, right?


...and I find it very, very difficult indeed to straighten up when mine goes into spasm. The pain is excruciating.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well, the video makes it seem like a jolly day out, although there's no mention of picnics or ginger beer.
> 
> I was ok with the video, right up until it showed the 'friend' stabbing the guy in the back in front of the Tribunal panel. If I took someone with me in to a tribunal, and they turned round and said 'I know EG said it's her back, but I really think she's depressed' I would NOT be a happy bunny at all!!! I think it's no coincidence that someone with a back problem is being portrayed as_ someone who could work really_, given that there was something in the press about back problems being a common reason for claiming. Plus, the lack of understanding towards mental health was staggering.
> 
> ...


 
Well I'm not sure I'd believe you anyway.  Having only one kidney means you probably only get half a backache you slacker


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, what a fucktard
> 
> Although, clearly ATOS have decided that 'recovering from cancer' = 'lazy feckless workshy malingerer'.


 
My friend got breast cancer and was in and out of hospital for a couple of years.  Ended up with over 25 operations I think due to infections and reconstructions getting reinfected


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I'm not sure I'd believe you anyway. Having only one kidney means you probably only get half a backache you slacker




I know, I'm just a lazy slattern really.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> My friend got breast cancer and was in and out of hospital for a couple of years. Ended up with over 25 operations I think due to infections and reconstructions getting reinfected



These people are so arrogant with their pig ignorance, it simply doesn't occur to them that people actually are unable to work with the best will in the world.

I am fortunate in that I can work full time at the moment, despite the pain, and work is broadly supportive of me, however after my serious illness two years ago my health is more fragile than before so I might not be able to work full time for as long as I need/want to.

Fuck knows what I will do if that happens.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> These people are so arrogant with their pig ignorance, it simply doesn't occur to them that people actually are unable to work with the best will in the world.
> 
> I am fortunate in that I can work full time at the moment, despite the pain, and work is broadly supportive of me, however after my serious illness two years ago my health is more fragile than before so I might not be able to work full time for as long as I need/want to.
> 
> Fuck knows what I will do if that happens.


 
Scary thought innit


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> These people are so arrogant with their pig ignorance,...


 
They're fully aware. There's a host of lobby groups, advisor's and then there's the whole state machine at their disposal.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> They're fully aware. There's a whole host of lobby groups, advisor's and then there's the whole state machine at their disposal.


I hope that they get an early karmic payback then - I wouldn't wish illness on anyone but maybe karma will.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I hope that they get an early karmic payback then - I wouldn't wish illness on anyone but maybe karma will.


I hope so - and karma can be a bitch with sharp teeth.


----------



## culder (Jun 27, 2012)

That video is the most patronising twaddle I've seen in a long time - and believe me, I've seen a fair bit of patronising twaddle.

Dear patronising video actress - yes, I would love to fill in the form you're referring to, but after 6 months I still haven't received it. I phoned the Tribunal Service today and was told that they still don't have me in their system. ESA, when I finally got an answer after holding for ages, told me that someone will phone me back by 4.20 today. Not holding my breath.

Chris Grayling, quoted above -

_" I make it a matter of policy that ministers do not become involved in individual cases"_

They are bloody well _responsible_ for individual cases, fuckwit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2012)

culder said:


> That video is the most patronising twaddle I've seen in a long time - and believe me, I've seen a fair bit of patronising twaddle.
> 
> Dear patronising video actress - yes, I would love to fill in the form you're referring to, but after 6 months I still haven't received it. I phoned the Tribunal Service today and was told that they still don't have me in their system. ESA, when I finally got an answer after holding for ages, told me that someone will phone me back by 4.20 today. Not holding my breath.
> 
> ...


 
Morally, yes. Practically, yes. In terms of accepting responsibility for operational decisions, malfunctions etc? Not on your life.


----------



## culder (Jun 27, 2012)

I did get a call back, and after getting rather upset (to put it mildly) I was told that someone else will call me.


----------



## culder (Jun 27, 2012)

Heavens. I was just phoned by a Decision Maker who is going to look at my case first thing tomorrow and then phone me to discuss it.

I almost feel as though I've achieved something.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2012)

culder said:


> Heavens. I was just phoned by a Decision Maker who is going to look at my case first thing tomorrow and then phone me to discuss it.
> 
> I almost feel as though I've achieved something.


Best of luck with that, Culder, here's hoping the decision will be in your favour.


----------



## culder (Jun 27, 2012)

It certainly feels like progress.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 28, 2012)

Has anyone put all these ATOS death stories together on 1 website with an "ATOS death toll" counter at the top of the page yet?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 28, 2012)

culder said:


> It certainly feels like progress.



Be very wary when speaking to anyone from the DWP, particularly a decision maker. If you have an appeal in state that the case is too complex to discuss over the telephone.


----------



## culder (Jun 28, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Has anyone put all these ATOS death stories together on 1 website with an "ATOS death toll" counter at the top of the page yet?


 
That's a very good idea!

Well, everyone, prepare yourselves to be gobsmacked. The guy I spoke to yesterday phoned at precisely 9am today. He had reviewed all my documents, and decided that I am _not_ fit for work. I'll have to go onto what they call WRAG (Work Related Activity Group), but that sounds fair enough, I think.

Until I've got it in writing I still won't feel quite out of the woods yet, and it hasn't really sunk in that this might all be over. But I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. (Of course, my Mum said, "As long as it isn't a train coming in the other direction!")


----------



## Greebo (Jun 28, 2012)

culder said:


> <snip>Well, everyone, prepare yourselves to be gobsmacked. The guy I spoke to yesterday phoned at precisely 9am today. He had reviewed all my documents, and decided that I am _not_ fit for work. I'll have to go onto what they call WRAG (Work Related Activity Group), but that sounds fair enough, I think.<snip>


In that case, I'll give a very quiet two cheers and break open a small bottle of sparkling cider - full on celebration can wait. But at least this is better than being told that you're well enough to work when you're obviously not.


----------



## culder (Jun 28, 2012)

Absolutely!


----------



## audiotech (Jun 28, 2012)

Don't want to rain on your parade, nevertheless, the Orwellian sounding 'Work Related Activity Group' (WRAG) doesn't mean they find you a job, that's still down to you and they will put pressure on you to find work, or send you to a provider to be talked down to. The one saving grace is that you get an extra £29 supplement for being in the WRAG. Be aware that your job advisor is not your friend and despite having no medical qualifications will, more than likely, make assumptions about your illness. Don't put up with any crap and don't sign any document without first checking it fully.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 28, 2012)

culder said:


> Heavens. I was just phoned by a Decision Maker who is going to look at my case first thing tomorrow and then phone me to discuss it.
> 
> I almost feel as though I've achieved something.


 
Everything crossed for you


----------



## culder (Jun 28, 2012)

Okay, Audio, I will be careful! But I do have a boyfriend who works for the DWP and will advise me where necessary.

I agree that it sounds Orwellian. To be honest, Orwell is probably spinning in his grave as we type, along with Dickens and Robert Tressell.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> <snip>Be aware that your job advisor is not your friend and despite having no medical qualifications will, more than likely, make assumptions about your illness. Don't put up with any crap and don't sign any document without first checking it fully.


Good advice there.  It's all too easy to be talked into something if you're feeling rough and don't expect to be tricked.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Good advice there. It's all too easy to be talked into something if you're feeling rough and don't expect to be tricked.


 
Which is why I always deal with them based on the dictum "nothing is true. Everything is permitted!".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 28, 2012)

Wish people would stop bumping this thread.

Reminds me I have forms to fill in


----------



## Glitter (Jun 28, 2012)

culder said:


> Okay, Audio, I will be careful! But I do have a boyfriend who works for the DWP and will advise me where necessary.
> 
> I agree that it sounds Orwellian. To be honest, Orwell is probably spinning in his grave as we type, along with Dickens and Robert Tressell.



Excellent news Culder! I worked with M until a couple of weeks ago and have been asking about you and following your progress on here. He won't let them fuck you about x


----------



## josef1878 (Jun 28, 2012)

culder said:


> That's a very good idea!
> 
> Well, everyone, prepare yourselves to be gobsmacked. The guy I spoke to yesterday phoned at precisely 9am today. He had reviewed all my documents, and decided that I am _not_ fit for work. I'll have to go onto what they call WRAG (Work Related Activity Group), but that sounds fair enough, I think.
> 
> Until I've got it in writing I still won't feel quite out of the woods yet, and it hasn't really sunk in that this might all be over. But I can see a light at the end of the tunnel. (Of course, my Mum said, "As long as it isn't a train coming in the other direction!")



That's really good news, your other half seemed a bit gobsmacked when he told me this afternoon! Really pleased a bit of the stress is over. Have a beer tonight, you deserve it!


----------



## Greebo (Jun 28, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wish people would stop bumping this thread.
> 
> Reminds me I have forms to fill in


Back to the grindstone, Minnie, there'll be more time (relatively speaking) to enjoy yourself when this is out of the way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 28, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Back to the grindstone, Minnie, there'll be more time (relatively speaking) to enjoy yourself when this is out of the way.


 
Been too busy gardening for the last 3 days.  I have house to clear up before a house guest on Thursday 'til Monday as well and the place is a tip, and more gardening to do tomorrow. 

It's the *walking distance* that always prevents me moving on


----------



## culder (Jun 29, 2012)

Thanks Glitter and Josef, and everyone else who has been so supportive.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 29, 2012)

New facebook group has been set-up for claimants to discuss current issues regarding ESA and Incapacity Benefits, particularly to monitor the proposed changes to be made to the benefits system.​


----------



## josef1878 (Jun 29, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks Glitter and Josef, and everyone else who has been so supportive.



Perfect time to get the chap to sort a drink after work to celebrate?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 29, 2012)

audiotech said:


> New facebook group has been set-up for claimants to discuss current issues regarding ESA and Incapacity Benefits, particularly to monitor the proposed changes to be made to the benefits system.​


Thanks but I prefer not to use FB for things like that.


----------



## culder (Jun 30, 2012)

Audio, thanks for that link. I've already e-mailed my MP about the Early Day Motion linked on that page

- http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...dmnumber=295&orderby=Name&orderdirection=Desc


----------



## Glitter (Jun 30, 2012)

josef1878 said:


> Perfect time to get the chap to sort a drink after work to celebrate?


 
Let me know when. I'll bob over for an orange juice.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 1, 2012)

culder said:


> Audio, thanks for that link. I've already e-mailed my MP about the Early Day Motion linked on that page
> 
> - http://www.parliament.uk/business/p...dmnumber=295&orderby=Name&orderdirection=Desc


 
Well done, as I have too.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 1, 2012)

The blurb:




> Atos is an international information technology services company with annual 2011 pro forma revenue of EUR 8.5 billion and 74,000 employees in 48 countries. Serving a global client base, it delivers hi-tech transactional services, consulting & technology services, systems integration and managed services. With its deep technology expertise and industry knowledge, it works with clients across the following market sectors: Manufacturing, Retail, Services; Public sector, Healthcare & Transport; Financial Services; Telecoms, Media & Technology; Energy & Utilities.


​


> Atos is focused on business technology that powers progress and helps organizations to create their firm of the future. It is the Worldwide Information Technology Partner for the Olympic and Paralympic Games and is quoted on the Paris Eurolist Market. Atos operates under the brands Atos, Atos Consulting & Technology Services, Atos Worldline and Atos Worldgrid.​


​http://atos.net/en-us/Newsroom/en-us/default.htm


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 2, 2012)

MP Johm McDonnell has tabled an Early Day Motion debate on Atos. If you can, get an email off to your MP asking him to sign it. It was tabled on Thursday so many of them won't have seen it on house business yet. Get emailing peeps.

Early Day Motion 295 


> Session: 2012-13
> Date tabled: 28.06.2012
> Primary sponsor: McDonnell, John
> Sponsors:
> That this House deplores that thousands of sick and disabled constituents are experiencing immense hardship after being deprived of benefits following a work capability assessment carried out by Atos Healthcare under a 100 million a year contract; notes that 40 per cent of appeals are successful but people wait up to six months for them to be heard; deplores that last year 1,100 claimants died while under compulsory work-related activity for benefit and that a number of those found fit for work and left without income have committed or attempted suicide; condemns the International Paralympic Committee's promotion of Atos as its top sponsor and the sponsorship of the Olympics by Dow Chemical and other corporations responsible for causing death and disability; welcomes the actions taken by disabled people, carers, bereaved relatives and organisations to end this brutality and uphold entitlement to benefits; and applauds the British Medical Association call for the work capability assessment to end immediately and to be replaced with a system that does not cause harm to some of the most vulnerable people in society.


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## Greebo (Jul 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> MP Johm McDonnell has tabled an Early Day Motion debate on Atos. If you can, get an email off to your MP asking him to sign it. It was tabled on Thursday so many of them won't have seen it on house business yet. Get emailing peeps.
> 
> Early Day Motion 295


Doing that now.


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## WouldBe (Jul 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> MP Johm McDonnell has tabled an Early Day Motion debate on Atos. If you can, get an email off to your MP asking him to sign it. It was tabled on Thursday so many of them won't have seen it on house business yet. Get emailing peeps.
> 
> Early Day Motion 295


1100 dead. 

ATOS have killed more Britons than the Taliban.  Never mind the early day motion what happened to war on terrorism?


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 2, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> 1100 dead.
> 
> ATOS have killed more Britons than the Taliban.  Never mind the early day motion what happened to war on terrorism?



Sad isn't it that seriously and terminally ill people are going to their end with this shite hanging over them and their families.
DWP keep no record of what happens to those thrown on JSA *Like me* It'a only when we read or hear about people like the lad who set fire to himself at his JC+ that our struggle becomes known. 

I've been at the edge of reason myself over the past few months through DWP sanctions, benefit lost in the ether, thrown of JSA because I had a real nice huge gum abscess and couldn't get in to sign on and and other general fuckwittery.. including being thrown to Ingeus WP. 

I haul myself back from the brink, but, at times I really wonder why I bother as this shit aint gonna change.


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## culder (Jul 2, 2012)

_because I had a real nice huge gum abscess and couldn't get in to sign on_

That should be something you can appeal against. If you informed them that you couldn't attend because of illness, they should send you a form to fill in so that you'll be covered for that week. They don't go out of their way to tell anyone, but even JSA claimants are allowed a certain number of sick days.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 2, 2012)

culder said:


> _because I had a real nice huge gum abscess and couldn't get in to sign on_
> 
> That should be something you can appeal against. If you informed them that you couldn't attend because of illness, they should send you a form to fill in so that you'll be covered for that week. They don't go out of their way to tell anyone, but even JSA claimants are allowed a certain number of sick days.


 
I'd already used up my two weeks self sick twice in the year culder and was only a few days from my next self sick allowance. 

I actually called them the morning I was supposed to sign on and explained while sounding like I had a bag of marbles and a bog roll in my gub and was told to come in when I was able and fill in the relevent forms. The call wasn't registered.

I didn't even get notice I'd been thrown off until I went in to sign on when I was able.

As soon as I was told I was heaved I came home and reapplied online. Appointment all fixed for the next day.

Also found out yopu can't apply6 for JSA from JC+ phones.. as.. the advisor actually said.. "We'd have everybody in here using the phones to apply if we let them" 

JC+ staff are.. as someone said on twitter the other day 'akin to plumbers on the death star' They bang about thinking they're brilliant yet there are still too many fucking leaks.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 2, 2012)

More pissed off GPs.




> The Government scheme aims to give everyone on incapacity benefit a ‘work capability assessment', but LMC leaders say it has resulted in rising numbers of patients requesting sick notes while they appealed the decision to have their benefits withdrawn.
> Dr Deborah Colvin, chair of City and Hackney LMC, said each of the 10 doctors at her practice now see three to four patients a week in this situation when it used to be an occasional occurrence.
> She said: ‘I can't bear seeing patients with major disabilities being told they can go to work when there are no jobs to be had even if they were fit- and they're not. What do they expect us to do? Are we supposed to leave people with nothing?'


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> More pissed off GPs.


 
Would be good if all GPs published the amount of sick notes they're having to now issue for such people to see how much of an increase there's been


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## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2012)

I've emailed my MP about the early day motion.


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2012)

After submitting a complaint in April, I've finally received a letter of apology from Atos. The details contained within the letter, that I won't go into here, highlight the utter shambolic nature of how this organisation is run.


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## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> After submitting a complaint in April, I've finally received a letter of apology from Atos. The details contained within the letter, that I won't go into here, highlight the utter shambolic nature of how this organisation is run.


Took them bloody long enough. Was the reply along the lines of 'we're shit, we know we are, there's fuck all you can do about it.'?


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## culder (Jul 3, 2012)

Audio - how do you go about submitting a complaint? It might not bring the result we all want (getting rid of them altogether) but I definitely want to add my tuppenceworth.


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## culder (Jul 3, 2012)

After a look around, I've found this e-mail address for complaints -
customer-relations@atoshealthcare.com

Is that what you used, Audio?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 3, 2012)

audiotech said:


> that I won't go into here, highlight the utter shambolic nature of how this organisation is run.


 
that's a shame, would be nice to see what their explanation was


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## culder (Jul 3, 2012)

I've started an e-mail to the address above, but I'm keeping it in 'save draft' until I can feel sure that I'm sending it to the right place.


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## audiotech (Jul 3, 2012)

culder said:


> After a look around, I've found this e-mail address for complaints -
> customer-relations@atoshealthcare.com
> 
> Is that what you used, Audio?


 
I sent a letter direct to the Medical Examination Centre where my WCA took place. They do claim to lose them, so do have a copy handy


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## audiotech (Jul 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Took them bloody long enough. Was the reply along the lines of 'we're shit, we know we are, there's fuck all you can do about it.'?


 
One issue received this response:

"[I can confirm] that it is wholly inappropriate for an Atos Healthcare employee to speak to anyone in the manner that you have described and I apologise for the upset this has caused you."

and

"I have brought the... matters you raise to the attention of the Manager of our ***** office and asked that she take appropriate management action [no less} to address the issues that you have raised...."


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## treelover (Jul 3, 2012)

'Early Day Motion 295

ATOS
Session 2012-13
Date tabled: 28.06.2012
Primary sponsor: McDonnell, John
Sponsors:
Text:


That this House deplores that thousands of sick and disabled constituents are experiencing immense hardship after being deprived of benefits following a work capability assessment carried out by Atos Healthcare under a 100 million a year contract; notes that 40 per cent of appeals are successful but people wait up to six months for them to be heard; deplores that last year 1,100 claimants died while under compulsory work-related activity for benefit and that a number of those found fit for work and left without income have committed or attempted suicide; condemns the International Paralympic Committee’s promotion of Atos as its top sponsor and the sponsorship of the Olympics by Dow Chemical and other corporations responsible for causing death and disability; welcomes the actions taken by disabled people, carers, bereaved relatives and organisations to end this brutality and uphold entitlement to benefits; and applauds the British Medical Association call for the work capability assessment to end immediately and to be replaced with a system that does not cause harm to some of the most vulnerable people in society.'


John McDonnell has an EDM which is very robust in attacking ATOS and the consequences of its activities, sadly I don't think he will get much support for this, remember most M.P's voted for the welfare reforms...

update, not one other M.P has endorsed the EDM as I write...


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## audiotech (Jul 3, 2012)

So it looks (no surprise really) as though my tory MP, who I've written to about this and anticipating his weasel words in reply, hasn't supported it.


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## culder (Jul 3, 2012)

Treelover - I had a look at it this morning and there are now 11 MPs signed up. Not including my own Labour MP, unfortunately.


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## treelover (Jul 3, 2012)

Good, it will need a lot more though, Milliband visited ATOS HQ and commended them on their great work...


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## treelover (Jul 3, 2012)

wrong thread...


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## culder (Jul 5, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I sent a letter direct to the Medical Examination Centre where my WCA took place. They do claim to lose them, so do have a copy handy


 
Thanks, Audio - I might try both!


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## spirals (Jul 5, 2012)

Just had my medical, when I got there I double checked that it would be recorded as I had requested that, the call centre hadn't passed on my request, even though I made it atleast four times on four seperate calls including one with a team leader due to a complaint I made about being given false information. When I got home I rang to ask why my request wasn't passed on and have just been accused of lying by a dickhead called David who said 'well you can claim you asked atleast 4 times for your interview to be recorded but you can't prove it and I doubt 4 seperate people would have neglected to pass on that request.' Well they bloody well did  My husband was here whilst I made the calls and I did fecking well ask. So upset now


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## yardbird (Jul 5, 2012)

spirals said:


> Just had my medical, when I got there I double checked that it would be recorded as I had requested that, the call centre hadn't passed on my request, even though I made it atleast four times on four seperate calls including one with a team leader due to a complaint I made about being given false information. When i got home I rang to ask why my request wasn't passed on and have just been accused of lying by a dickhead called David who said 'well you can claim you asked atleast 4 times for your interview to be recorded but you can't prove it and I doubt 4 seperate people would have neglected to pass on that request.' Well they bloody well did  My husband was here whilst I made the calls and I did fecking well ask. So upset now


Soul destroying. These people make you lose the will to live 
I would - for what it's worth - make a written complaint about. It is not acceptable to call a client  a liar.
Good luck.


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## ericjarvis (Jul 5, 2012)

spirals said:


> Just had my medical, when I got there I double checked that it would be recorded as I had requested that, the call centre hadn't passed on my request, even though I made it atleast four times on four seperate calls including one with a team leader due to a complaint I made about being given false information. When I got home I rang to ask why my request wasn't passed on and have just been accused of lying by a dickhead called David who said 'well you can claim you asked atleast 4 times for your interview to be recorded but you can't prove it and I doubt 4 seperate people would have neglected to pass on that request.' Well they bloody well did  My husband was here whilst I made the calls and I did fecking well ask. So upset now



This is why I advise everyone to take somebody along with them to be a witness at the examination. Recording it is in ATOS's hands and therefore something that can't be relied on. They are quite capable of losing inconvenient recordings. So far they haven't gone as far as murdering inconvenient witnesses. You have to assume dishonesty on the part of ATOS at every opportunity. They are a commercial concern that makes a profit by declaring sick and disabled people fit for work, they are not concerned by peripheral things like decency and honesty.


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## culder (Jul 5, 2012)

Bloody hell, Spirals, that's disgraceful.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 5, 2012)

spirals said:


> Just had my medical, when I got there I double checked that it would be recorded as I had requested that, the call centre hadn't passed on my request, even though I made it atleast four times on four seperate calls including one with a team leader due to a complaint I made about being given false information. When I got home I rang to ask why my request wasn't passed on and have just been accused of lying by a dickhead called David who said 'well you can claim you asked atleast 4 times for your interview to be recorded but you can't prove it and I doubt 4 seperate people would have neglected to pass on that request.' Well they bloody well did  My husband was here whilst I made the calls and I did fecking well ask. So upset now


 
I read last night on a website but can't remember which (DWP Examinations, or Black Triangle maybe) that someone had asked about their recording and they claimed that *TEN *of the machines were in Croydon being repaired.  Another unverified post said that he'd heard that the service was being withdrawn completely


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 5, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> This is why I advise everyone to take somebody along with them to be a witness at the examination. Recording it is in ATOS's hands and therefore something that can't be relied on. They are quite capable of losing inconvenient recordings. So far they haven't gone as far as murdering inconvenient witnesses. You have to assume dishonesty on the part of ATOS at every opportunity. They are a commercial concern that makes a profit by declaring sick and disabled people fit for work, they are not concerned by peripheral things like decency and honesty.


 
You can record telephone conversations on landline phones, but I've not figured out how you do it on mine, and of course, you'd have to tell them they were being recorded


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## ericjarvis (Jul 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can record telephone conversations on landline phones, but I've not figured out how you do it on mine, and of course, you'd have to tell them they were being recorded



Which can be quite entertaining.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 5, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Which can be quite entertaining.


 
No experience of it, but I really should learn how to use handset to record


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## culder (Jul 5, 2012)

I'm guessing no-one's going to be surprised by this -

A week after I was told my decision had been changed, I still haven't had anything in the post to confirm it, so I phoned them. I was told that there was a problem with my most recent sick note - they couldn't make out whether my GP had written 5 weeks or 8 weeks. I didn't quite see why the hell it mattered, if the decision's been changed, but I was fobbed off with some bullshit. She also said they'd tried to contact me about it this morning, but there was no answer.

After a little while I decided to check 1471, and the last call was from my Mum at 10.30 this morning. I've been awake since 5.45, and there were no calls before my Mum's, so I rang them back to query that. This time I was told it was my GP they'd been trying to phone, not me (so apparently my local surgery didn't answer the phone). Worse, I said again that I didn't see why the sick note mattered now because the decision had been changed. She said, "Why would the decision be changed?" At this point I needed to sit down. I went through the whole story of last week's phone call, and she said that there was no note on my claim about it.

I phoned my case worker at Welfare Rights, who said I should call back, explain that the information I'd been given was confusing, and ask for some clarification. I did that, this time got someone who sounded like she actually gives a shit, and someone will get back to me either this afternoon or tomorrow morning.

Is fuckwit Cameron going to explain why my right to vote is actually worth anything?


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## culder (Jul 5, 2012)

Just out of interest, what happens if I don't register to vote? I've got the form in front of me, but I really don't see the point in returning it. Do I get a fine? Do I go to jail? At the moment I couldn't care less.


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## Jackobi (Jul 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can record telephone conversations on landline phones, but I've not figured out how you do it on mine, and of course, you'd have to tell them they were being recorded


 
You can record any home phone call you are a party to, without informing the other party. Disclosing that recorded call to third parties is where legalities should be considered before doing so.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 5, 2012)

Jackobi said:


> You can record any home phone call you are a party to, without informing the other party. Disclosing that recorded call to third parties is where legalities should be considered before doing so.


 
Oh right, I still have to figure out how to do it though


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## Jackobi (Jul 5, 2012)

Using a speakerphone and recording with another device (PC, mobile, MP3 player etc), or with a purpose made telephone recording device, which can be bought cheaply.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can record telephone conversations on landline phones, but I've not figured out how you do it on mine, and of course, you'd have to tell them they were being recorded


 
Not if you're only recording for your own use/records. You do need permission if you're going to use the recording "for training purposes" etc, or otherwise publish it.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You can record telephone conversations on landline phones, but I've not figured out how you do it on mine, and of course, you'd have to tell them they were being recorded


 
Loads of different ways. You can use an inductive coil plugged into a recorder and stuck to the back of the handset. You can use one of the many different devices that plugs in between your socket and your phone, or just by putting your call on speakerphone and recording that.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2012)

culder said:


> Just out of interest, what happens if I don't register to vote? I've got the form in front of me, but I really don't see the point in returning it. Do I get a fine? Do I go to jail? At the moment I couldn't care less.


 
Nothing yet, AFAIK, although the politicians are always mumbling about finin people who don't sign up on the elctoral register.


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## culder (Jul 6, 2012)

Thanks, Violent.

The saga continues - This morning I was phoned by someone who said there was no record of last week's conversation, but he said he would pass it on to someone else. I was phoned again about an hour later, by a woman who also couldn't see any reference to my new decision, but after putting me on hold for about a minute she said she had found it! Woohoo! Apparently she had access to docs that the other people I'd spoken to didn't have, and she was now able to confirm my WRAG decision. I asked when I can expect to see something in the post about it, and she said 7-10 days (working days, that is, so a couple of weeks).

Okay, I'll take that. But I'm still not holding my breath in the next couple of weeks...


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## tufty79 (Jul 6, 2012)

good news on the most recent update, culder; i'm really sorry to hear how much they're messing you around. keeping everything crossed that the woman you spoke to this morning's got it right this time x


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## Glitter (Jul 6, 2012)

culder said:


> After a look around, I've found this e-mail address for complaints -
> customer-relations@atoshealthcare.com
> 
> Is that what you used, Audio?


 
Blind copy your MP into it. Email you MP first making a complaint and explain that you will be copying him/her into the correspondence. But do it blind. Then you have evidence that it was sent/received and they won't know that you do. Tell them after they've replied what you did and copy the MP into every piece of correspondence from thereon in.


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## Glitter (Jul 6, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks, Violent.
> 
> The saga continues - This morning I was phoned by someone who said there was no record of last week's conversation, but he said he would pass it on to someone else. I was phoned again about an hour later, by a woman who also couldn't see any reference to my new decision, but after putting me on hold for about a minute she said she had found it! Woohoo! Apparently she had access to docs that the other people I'd spoken to didn't have, and she was now able to confirm my WRAG decision. I asked when I can expect to see something in the post about it, and she said 7-10 days (working days, that is, so a couple of weeks).
> 
> Okay, I'll take that. But I'm still not holding my breath in the next couple of weeks...


 
Hey Culder. I was over in the old office this morning and spoke to your other half. Can you ask them to fax it to him? They could even email it. 

That might put the shits up 'em.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 6, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks, Violent.
> 
> The saga continues - This morning I was phoned by someone who said there was no record of last week's conversation, but he said he would pass it on to someone else. I was phoned again about an hour later, by a woman who also couldn't see any reference to my new decision, but after putting me on hold for about a minute she said she had found it! Woohoo! Apparently she had access to docs that the other people I'd spoken to didn't have, and she was now able to confirm my WRAG decision. I asked when I can expect to see something in the post about it, and she said 7-10 days (working days, that is, so a couple of weeks).
> 
> Okay, I'll take that. But I'm still not holding my breath in the next couple of weeks...


 
Bastards do their mail-shots thursday and friday, then send everything out 2nd class. Apparently it's "easier" for them to print everything toward the end of the week, and fuck it being easier for anyone else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

audiotech said:


> According to 'Benefits and Work': "The Video they didn't want you to see...."




According to Black Triangle, it's been removed - again!


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## Greebo (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> According to Black Triangle, it's been removed - again!


Why oh why does that not surprise me?


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## audiotech (Jul 7, 2012)

So much for "transparency". You couldn't make this shit up. Oh, they have.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Why oh why does that not surprise me?


 
and furthermore, it's not looking good for recorded assessments

http://www.change.org/petitions/ato...rd-my-disability-assessment-cc-dwppressoffice


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## Greebo (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and furthermore, it's not looking good for recorded assessments
> 
> http://www.change.org/petitions/ato...rd-my-disability-assessment-cc-dwppressoffice


Signed.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and furthermore, it's not looking good for recorded assessments
> 
> http://www.change.org/petitions/ato...rd-my-disability-assessment-cc-dwppressoffice


Signed. 

This is a claimant's right, not a fucking luxury. For those with any kind of cognitive or memory disability, it is essential that a true recording be made.

Fucking bleating Atos wankers. May they rot in hell.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Signed.
> 
> This is a claimant's right, not a fucking luxury. For those with any kind of cognitive or memory disability, it is essential that a true recording be made.
> 
> Fucking bleating Atos wankers. May they rot in hell.


 
I reckon the petition should have its own page do you think, to get more votes, before it gets buried in this thread?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

am I right in thinking she's only petitioning the DWP and Atos?

Would the petition not be better off on this page?   Oh, apparently you can search by department there, but I'm struggling to find that particular one

http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/


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## Quartz (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and furthermore, it's not looking good for recorded assessments
> 
> http://www.change.org/petitions/ato...rd-my-disability-assessment-cc-dwppressoffice


 
FFS! 

The police manage to record all interviews; why can't ATOS?


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> am I right in thinking she's only petitioning the DWP and Atos?
> 
> Would the petition not be better off on this page?  Oh, apparently you can search by department there, but I'm struggling to find that particular one
> 
> http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/


Perhaps you can't if she's petitioning a private body? I don't know. Mind you there's easily half a dozen all about the assessments and atos already.

And one called 'Cancel benefits for work shy who do nothing but breed.​'


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Quartz said:


> FFS!
> 
> The police manage to record all interviews; why can't ATOS?


Because they don't want to - there will then be too much definitive proof that the Atos system doesn't work and is profiting from the sick and disabled.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Perhaps you can't if she's petitioning a private body? I don't know. Mind you there's easily half a dozen all about the assessments and atos already.
> 
> And one called '
> Cancel benefits for work shy who do nothing but breed.​
> '


 
FFS 

Saw one demanding that Big Ben keeps its name.  They must have pretty boring lives


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## Quartz (Jul 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Because they don't want to - there will then be too much definitive proof that the Atos system doesn't work and is profiting from the sick and disabled.


 
I can't argue with you there.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS
> 
> Saw one demanding that Big Ben keeps its name. They must have pretty boring lives


First world problems ftw


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## ericjarvis (Jul 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Because they don't want to - there will then be too much definitive proof that the Atos system doesn't work and is profiting from the sick and disabled.



I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but mine was that the paperwork they sent the DWP contained outright lies about how I had answered some questions.


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## Greebo (Jul 7, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but mine was that the paperwork they sent the DWP contained outright lies about how I had answered some questions.


Had that from two of the doctors who did it, one of whom was (at the time) a very well respected local GP. One of them sufficiently forgot all his medical training so far as to repeatedly shout at my caree, when he was already visibly extremely distressed (due to a migraine exacerbated by drilling outside). Hypocratic oath? Hypocritical, more like. 

To be fair, another GP who did the DLA medical was polite, gentle mannered, and didn't tell so much as a half truth on the form.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 7, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Had that from two of the doctors who did it, one of whom was (at the time) a very well respected local GP. One of them sufficiently forgot all his medical training so far as to repeatedly shout at my caree, when he was already visibly extremely distressed (due to a migraine exacerbated by drilling outside). Hypocratic oath? Hypocritical, more like.
> 
> To be fair, another GP who did the DLA medical was polite, gentle mannered, and didn't tell so much as a half truth on the form.


 
That's out of order 

Himself's never been for a medical so nice to know what to possibly expect


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## Greebo (Jul 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's out of order
> 
> Himself's never been for a medical so nice to know what to possibly expect


Tbf, the doctors who did the IB medical on VP seemed to behave okay towards him, although they seemed to be considerably less sympathetic towards those who seemed physically intact in the waiting room.

He hasn't been migrated to ESA yet (touch wood).  Sufficient unto the day and all that.


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> I can't speak for anyone else's experience, but mine was that the paperwork they sent the DWP contained outright lies about how I had answered some questions.


Sadly, this does not appear to be an isolated incident, judging by the reports on the internet in  the press.

In the absence of recordings, however, Atos can claim (untruthfully, obviously) that it was just a misunderstanding on the atos assessor's part, or that the claimant didn't say that, and given that these are some of the most vulnerable people in society, they bank on the fact that not everyone will fight back simply because they are vulnerable.

It's state sanctioned bullying, with the taxpayer picking up the tab.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> http://www.change.org/petitions/ato...rd-my-disability-assessment-cc-dwppressoffice


Signed.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> In the absence of recordings, however, Atos can claim (untruthfully, obviously) that it was just a misunderstanding on the atos assessor's part, or that the claimant didn't say that


ATOS would have big problems in my case as the nurse was medically wrong. 

Which reminds me I still haven't got round to reporting the cow to the nursing and midwifery council yet.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 8, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> ATOS would have big problems in my case as the nurse was medically wrong.
> 
> Which reminds me I still haven't got round to reporting the cow to the nursing and midwifery council yet.


Well, put a reminder to do it where you won't miss or ignore it.  You owe it to others who could be done by that person.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Well, put a reminder to do it where you won't miss or ignore it. You owe it to others who could be done by that person.


I am going to do it. I've been a bit busy since the assessment with fighting appeals and tribunals, then filling in mountains of paperwork for DLA, ESA and JSA. Now that's all done with, apart from trying to get my GP of his backside, I might now have the time and energy to do it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

Not sure if anyone's aware of this.  Old(ish) news, but not sure if I've seen it mentioned here



> The company ATOS Healthcare – which is contracted by the Department for Work and Pensions to carry out medical assessments for welfare claimants – is gagging its doctors from speaking out by using the draconian Official Secrets Act, _Liberal Conspiracy_ can reveal today.


 
http://liberalconspiracy.org/2012/0...-forces-doctors-to-sign-official-secrets-act/

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/apr/12/atos-doctors-sign-official-secrets-act


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Signed.
> 
> This is a claimant's right, not a fucking luxury. For those with any kind of cognitive or memory disability, it is essential that a true recording be made.


 
Absolutely.



> Fucking bleating Atos wankers. May they rot in hell.


 
Is this Grayling who's in charge of this clusterfuck? Whoever it is, I feel a letter coming on, perhaps one with lots of signatures that gets forwarded to the newsdesks of the dailies. Wonder if any of the "great and good" could be persuaded to sign it...?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

Just found this on the Atos Miracles Facebook page


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sadly, this does not appear to be an isolated incident, judging by the reports on the internet in the press.
> 
> In the absence of recordings, however, Atos can claim (untruthfully, obviously) that it was just a misunderstanding on the atos assessor's part, or that the claimant didn't say that, and given that these are some of the most vulnerable people in society, they bank on the fact that not everyone will fight back simply because they are vulnerable.
> 
> It's state sanctioned bullying, with the taxpayer picking up the tab.


 
Which is why if called for a medical, I'll request a recording, and take a laptop with me. That way, if the recorder is broken, I can record the assessment to the HDD, and give the assessor a copy on a memory stick. Worth the price of a cheap memory stick, and they can hardly protest, as it's merely my apparatus being used rather than theirs.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which is why if called for a medical, I'll request a recording, and take a laptop with me. That way, if the recorder is broken, I can record the assessment to the HDD, and give the assessor a copy on a memory stick. Worth the price of a cheap memory stick, and they can hardly protest, as it's merely my apparatus being used rather than theirs.


Cracking plan VP


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which is why if called for a medical, I'll request a recording, and take a laptop with me. That way, if the recorder is broken, I can record the assessment to the HDD, and give the assessor a copy on a memory stick. Worth the price of a cheap memory stick, and they can hardly protest, as it's merely my apparatus being used rather than theirs.


 
But if they've done away with recording and have said you're not allowed to record it yourself (and a woman has quoted verbatim a letter she received saying you're not allowed to), then they may just decide they're not going to assess you, unless they get advice about you giving them a copy on a memory stick first, and that'll really fuck things up (although it could delay your assessment while they seek legal advice as to whether you can do it)


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But if they've done away with recording and have said you're not allowed to record it yourself (and a woman has quoted verbatim a letter she received saying you're not allowed to), then they may just decide they're not going to assess you, unless they get advice about you giving them a copy on a memory stick first, and that'll really fuck things up (although it could delay your assessment while they seek legal advice as to whether you can do it)


But why can't it be recorded, if equipment is provided at no cost to atos by the claimant? What do they have to hide? 

Equally, why do they ask doctors to sign the official secrets act when it's not a contractual requirement by the government?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But if they've done away with recording and have said you're not allowed to record it yourself (and a woman has quoted verbatim a letter she received saying you're not allowed to), then they may just decide they're not going to assess you, unless they get advice about you giving them a copy on a memory stick first, and that'll really fuck things up (although it could delay your assessment while they seek legal advice as to whether you can do it)


 
They haven't done away with it (yet), and until they do (something I and many others will make sure we contest VERY LOUDLY!!!), I'm perfectly within my rights to take my own equipment in case their is faulty. 

E2A. Given my memory problems (same with himself!), then their providing recording equipment, or me providing my own recording equipment should amount to a "reasonable adjustment" to compensate for my memory problems under the Disability Discrimination Act.

Hmm, that one may be worth pursuing further.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But why can't it be recorded, if equipment is provided at no cost to atos by the claimant? What do they have to hide?


 
Everything, hence the farce of ony having 11 recording machines in the entire UK.



> Equally, why do they ask doctors to sign the official secrets act when it's not a contractual requirement by the government?


 
If they were direct employees, there's a case for it - to bind you from giving out patient details, but I can't see how they can compel conractors other than through "if you don't sign, you don't get any work".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But why can't it be recorded, if equipment is provided at no cost to atos by the claimant? What do they have to hide?
> 
> Equally, why do they ask doctors to sign the official secrets act when it's not a contractual requirement by the government?


 
Well quite, and their response to recording of assessments is:



> _I am writing further to Rhian Davies’ letter of the 29th June in response to your_
> _concerns regarding your Work Capability Assessment (WCA) appointment._
> 
> _I am sorry that on this occasion Atos is unable to meet your request for an_
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They haven't done away with it (yet), and until they do (something I and many others will make sure we contest VERY LOUDLY!!!), I'm perfectly within my rights to take my own equipment in case their is faulty.
> 
> E2A. Given my memory problems (same with himself!), then their providing recording equipment, or me providing my own recording equipment should amount to a "reasonable adjustment" to compensate for my memory problems under the Disability Discrimination Act.
> 
> Hmm, that one may be worth pursuing further.


 
Well I read that *ALL ELEVEN machines are broken* and are apparently not being replaced


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I read that *ALL ELEVEN machines are broken* and are apparently not being replaced


Yeah, I read that too. Surely it's just a cost-saving exercise though? What's wrong with having a recording device in each assessment room, with a stac of recording media?

It's not difficult or technically complex, they simply don't want to. Buying 11 machines for what, 140 centres, was simply a panacea for the DWP. They had zero intention of contemporaneous recording facilities being made available to claimants long-term.

But then my mind is extremely suspicious


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2012)

Oh yes, and this weekend I've actually managed 2 good days instead of the usual 1 or none, my first since Easter.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I read that *ALL ELEVEN machines are broken* and are apparently not being replaced


 
In which case, if Atos cannot provide the facilities for the recording of an assessment, as is any claimant's current right, that's their problem. I'm within my rights, however hard they try and coerce me, to refuse to be assessed without my assessment being recorded, whether that's on my equipment or theirs.
They expect people to fold, but most of us (IB/ESA claimants) are now in a situation where we can't, physically or emotionally, afford to fold.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They had zero intention of contemporaneous recording facilities being made available to claimants long-term.
> 
> But then my mind is extremely suspicious


 
No suspicious at all. I reckon everyone's thinking the same


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2012)

My MP still hasn't signed the Early day Motion 295 about ATOS. I'm giving them the benefit (LOL) of the doubt, given that they might be on holiday but 49 MPs have now signed the motion.

http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/295


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> But why can't it be recorded, if equipment is provided at no cost to atos by the claimant? What do they have to hide?



Some poor practitioners, who may damage their corporate image further?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 9, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> My MP still hasn't signed the Early day Motion 295 about ATOS. I'm giving them the benefit (LOL) of the doubt, given that they might be on holiday but 49 MPs have now signed the motion.
> 
> http://www.parliament.uk/edm/2012-13/295


Neither has mine (Chuka Umunna).  Given that he's now a minister of something or other I only half expected him to sign the EDM, but even so.


----------



## yardbird (Jul 9, 2012)

The recording situation has been my fight with ATOS long before it came to precedence.
If ATOS had 11 working recording machines, then surely it is their responsibility to keep them in working order.
Why are they are broken??
Just a trifle convenient isn't it?

If ATOS are not capable of taking care of 12 pieces of (pretty basic) tech machinery , then htf can they be trusted with giving opinions on minds and bodies which are a tad more complex?

Well convenient that the machines are fucked innit?
Carefully dropped so as to make the pesky machines useless?
 Surely it will be difficult to argue against us recording by ourselves?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2012)

yardbird said:


> The recording situation has been my fight with ATOS long before it came to precedence.
> If ATOS had 11 working recording machines, then surely it is their responsibility to keep them in working order.
> Why are they are broken??
> Just a trifle convenient isn't it?
> ...


Yeah, bunch of lying gobshites in my opinion - my suspicious mind is wondering about the coincidence of all being broken at the same time, whilst my mathematical mind is curious about the statistical probability of 12 identical devices all being broken at once.

I'd love to know how they get them between sites as well - surely all the shipping costs mount up?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yeah, bunch of lying gobshites in my opinion - my suspicious mind is wondering about the coincidence of all being broken at the same time, whilst my mathematical mind is curious about the statistical probability of 12 identical devices all being broken at once.
> 
> I'd love to know how they get them between sites as well - surely all the shipping costs mount up?


 
I think someone suggested on another site that maybe the excuse for them all being fucked is the way they were manhandled by delivery drivers


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2012)

Atos management infiltrator? How convenient. Blame 'white van man'.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not if you're only recording for your own use/records. You do need permission if you're going to use the recording "for training purposes" etc, or otherwise publish it.


 
Just been looking at this because I thought for private individuals as long as one party (yourself) knew it was being recorded that was fine. But it seems that's ok if it's just for you, or to play back to the other party, but not if you share with a third party, which it's quite possible you might during appeal processes or whatever. 

I've only kept up with this thread sporadically but the little I've read absolutely fucking enrages me. If anyone needs equipment for recording either phone calls or assessments and can source a cheapish one but can't afford one (you know what with being on benefits and all) I'd be glad to buy one or two as a donation to the cause depending on price.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Just been looking at this because I thought for private individuals as long as one party (yourself) knew it was being recorded that was fine. But it seems that's ok if it's just for you, or to play back to the other party, but not if you share with a third party, which it's quite possible you might during appeal processes or whatever.
> 
> I've only kept up with this thread sporadically but the little I've read absolutely fucking enrages me. If anyone needs equipment for recording either phone calls or assessments and can source a cheapish one but can't afford one (you know what with being on benefits and all) I'd be glad to buy one or two as a donation to the cause depending on price.


 
That's very nice of you Quimmy.  I'd like a top of the range covert spycam please, maybe in the form of glasses


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 10, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's very nice of you Quimmy. I'd like a top of the range covert spycam please, maybe in the form of glasses


 
If you can find it for under 20 sovs it's yours, minnie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

$100 over budget 

*http://www.spyville.com/spy-camera-eyeglasses.html*


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 10, 2012)

unlucky.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> unlucky.


 
They're probably too big for my head anyway


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2012)

This sticky shouldn't be distracted too much with a comedy slot IMHO, so there's this to ponder:

Upcoming changes to the benefit appeals process.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2012)

Noticed this: 'PCS Union to ballot Atos staff for strike action'.



> By sponsoring the Olympics, Atos is trying to buff up its image and associate itself with the ‘spirit of the Games’. The reality of course is very different because, while company executives and shareholders cream off the profits, Atos is condemning the rest of its staff to poverty pay. It’s a scandal that, at the same time, this company is taking millions of pounds of our money to help the government cut vital benefits for sick and disabled people.


http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/652


----------



## toggle (Jul 10, 2012)

audiotech said:


> This sticky shouldn't be distracted too much with a comedy slot IMHO, so there's this to ponder:
> 
> Upcoming changes to the benefit appeals process.


 


> The government’s interim response to the consultation indicates that there will be no time limit by which the DWP must complete a revision request, nor will there be provision for Employment and Support Allowance to be paid pending the outcome of the revision.


 
so they can basically sit on the case and delay it until the claimant has to give up or starve.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2012)

The 'freedom to starve' is now official is it?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 10, 2012)

It's difficult keeping up to speed on all this. Is the present coalition government attempting to redefine disability in economic terms?

http://loanwolffe.blogspot.co.uk/2012/07/british-government-attempt-at.html


----------



## Greebo (Jul 10, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The 'freedom to starve' is now official is it?


Unfortunately, yes.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

Update from _Benefits and Work _website



> *RECORDING ESA MEDICALS*
> Confusion surrounds the issue of recording ESA medicals, with some claimants telling Benefits and Work that they have been informed by Atos that the DWP have now brought the practice to an end and others saying they have been told that all the recording machines are broken.
> 
> The reality seems to be that some of the machines have indeed been damaged as a result of being constantly packed up and sent by courier from one examination centre to another.  In addition, the number of requests for recordings has been much higher than expected, in spite of the failure of the DWP and Atos to inform claimants of the option.
> ...


 
_Authorised _to buy more, but will they?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

More from _Benefits and Work _website.



> *ATOS WANT RIGHT TO REPLY ON BENEFITS AND WORK FORUM*
> Members may be almost as surprised as we were that Atos has used leading public relations firm Fishburn Hedges to try to get a right to reply on the Benefits and Work forum.
> 
> Fishburn Hedges say on their website that they ‘help leading organisations promote and defend corporate reputations in an uncertain world’...
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 10, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Update from _Benefits and Work _website
> _Authorised _to buy more, but will they?


 
Well they'd save a bundle on shipping costs if they did, for a start. Wonder how many more - should be one per assessment room at the centres, plus discs.

If the DWP are insisting that medicals can no longer be cancelled due to a lack of recording equipment, then claimants must be allowed to bring their own recording devices whether atos like it or not.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2012)

_Benefits and Work _sticking with what they said before regarding recording your own:



> Meanwhile, Atos continue to refuse to allow claimants to make their own recording on the dubious grounds of “​security and confidentiality considera​tions”​. There is no law against secretly recording your medical for your own records and nothing to prevent a tribunal accepting secretly recorded evidence if they choose. However, Atos are likely to end your medical if they discover that you are recording it. Again this could lead to your ESA being stopped and to your having to appeal with no certainty of success.
> 
> We would advise anyone who has had the facility to record their medical refused or cancelled to contact their MP and make as much fuss as they possibly can about the failure to provide a facility that Chris Grayling has said would be available. (On 1 February 2012, Grayling told MPs “​On audio recording, we will offer everyone who wants it the opportunity to have their session recorded.”​)
> 
> ...


----------



## Quartz (Jul 11, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Update from _Benefits and Work _website
> 
> 
> 
> _Authorised _to buy more, but will they?


 
Why the fuck do they have to be authorised to buy more? They're a 3rd party company. It's their responsibility to ensure sufficient functional recording machines are available. Isn't that part of why we're paying them squillions?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well they'd save a bundle on shipping costs if they did, for a start. Wonder how many more - should be one per assessment room at the centres, plus discs.


 
At the sort of bulk rates for tech and media they could buy at, the media would cost them 10p per unit tops for good quality CDs, and the recorders, on a bulk deal for several hundred, up to 30% below wholesale (dependent on whether their purchasing manager can haggle).



> If the DWP are insisting that medicals can no longer be cancelled due to a lack of recording equipment, then claimants must be allowed to bring their own recording devices whether atos like it or not.


 
Quite.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Why the fuck do they have to be authorised to buy more? They're a 3rd party company. It's their responsibility to ensure sufficient functional recording machines are available. Isn't that part of why we're paying them squillions?


 
What is probably actually meant is that the DWP has told Atos that they'll reimburse them the costs. Atos will have made a fuss about bearing the cost.


----------



## Quartz (Jul 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What is probably actually meant is that the DWP has told Atos that they'll reimburse them the costs. Atos will have made a fuss about bearing the cost.


 
Cynical, but likely true.


----------



## yardbird (Jul 11, 2012)

I've wondered as to the sanity of thinking that 'tec gear can be constantly packed, transported, unpacked, dumped on Sally's post trolley then trundled to the office it's needed in, _without _it getting damaged.
Madness.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 11, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I've wondered as to the sanity of thinking that 'tec gear can be constantly packed, transported, unpacked, dumped on Sally's post trolley then trundled to the office it's needed in, _without _it getting damaged.
> Madness.


The whole damn system is insane though, this is just the latest example of their fuckwittery.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The whole damn system is insane though, this is just the latest example of their fuckwittery.


 
I wouldn't mind insanity. I do mind what this is: Malice.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I wouldn't mind insanity. I do mind what this is: Malice.


True, it is rather deliberate and ill-intentioned. A plague on all their houses.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> True, it is rather deliberate and ill-intentioned. A plague on all their houses.


 
And their genitals.

Especially their genitals.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

I've just printed out *34 pages of extra information *I've typed to support the ESA form, and I still haven't done the following parts:

*Going Out*
*Coping with Social Situations*
*Behaving Appropriately with Other People*

Can't remember how much typewritten stuff I added to the DLA form, it was more than this, but considering the ESA form is only 20 pages and the DLA form was around 50 pages....


----------



## yardbird (Jul 12, 2012)

((Minnie))


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 12, 2012)

Aye.. ((((minnie))))


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Anyway, some good news.

Went to neuropsychiatrist appointment today and explained situation with filling in form and how I was dreading asking for his help in case they thought it was himself just being a slacker/workshy, and he laughed and said "absolutely not, there's no way he will *ever *be able to work again" and said if it goes to appeal, he'll support him with an full medical report explaining his brain damage.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2012)

Just had my battle with the DWP today.

A pyrrhic victory - two years in the "support group".


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Just had my battle with the DWP today - the bastards.
> 
> A pyrrhic victory - two years in the "support group".
> 
> Don't let the fuckers grind you down.


 
Excellent news audiotech.  I'm so pleased for you  

Did you go to a medical assessment (I'm sure you've told me, but I've been a bit caught up with other stuff)?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Excellent news audiotech. I'm so pleased for you
> 
> Did you go to a medical assessment (I'm sure you've told me, but I've been a bit caught up with other stuff)?


 
I've had two WCA's. There were two appeals running concurrently and I was a bit miffed, as the law official on the panal said they had tried to contact me by telephone today to say they'd made their decision on the papers alone, so I needn't have bothered turning up.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I've had two WCA's. There were two appeals running concurrently and I was a bit miffed, as the law official on the panal said they had tried to contact me by telephone today to say they'd made their decision on the papers alone, so I needn't have bothered turning up.


 


Anyway, I hope you get some peace from them for a while at least


----------



## audiotech (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyway, I hope you get some peace from them for a while at least


 
Thanks Minnie. I certainly need it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Thanks Minnie. I certainly need it.


 
You deserve to go out and de-stress yourself now and celebrate officially being declared ill


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've just printed out *34 pages of extra information *I've typed to support the ESA form, and I still haven't done the following parts:
> 
> *Going Out*
> *Coping with Social Situations*
> ...


(((You and your very sore arms)))  never mind, think of it as an investment in time.  The more you do now, the less probably you'll need to take the claim to appeal.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> (((You and your very sore arms))) never mind, think of it as an investment in time. The more you do now, the less probably you'll need to take the claim to appeal.


 
Yeah, and I can cut and paste all the information for when I need it for inevitable DLA form


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2012)

How on earth do they expect anybody to complete these immensely epic forms?

Or is that just stage 1 of the plan to put people off claiming?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> How on earth do they expect anybody to complete these immensely epic forms?
> 
> Or is that just stage 1 of the plan to put people off claiming?


Well, it could be that.  Or maybe you prove yourself ineligible if you're able to adequately fill in the form so that the decision maker can't find any other reason to reject your claim.  Catch 22


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Well, it could be that. Or maybe you prove yourself ineligible if you're able to adequately fill in the form so that the decision maker can't find any other reason to reject your claim. Catch 22


 
Unless you have someone like CAB do it for you


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Unless you have someone like CAB do it for you


There is that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> There is that.


 
You ever seen the queues outside those places? Fine, if you're able to stand!

eta:  I read on CAB website that over 50% (I think that was the figure, but near enough) of their workload is now ESA/DLA appeals


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You ever seen the queues outside those places? Fine, if you're able to stand!<snip>


Which is why, if out and about with VP, I sometimes carry one of these for him to use if need be. Very light and strong.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Which is why, if out and about with VP, I sometimes carry one of these for him to use if need be. Very light and strong.


 
I have enough shit to carry  Was going to get one of those walking stick seats years ago, but knew h wouldn't get on with it

How much does that weigh?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I have enough shit to carry  <snip>


You think I don't?
It goes in a bag whose strap can be slung over one shoulder.  Give him a minute and VP'll check the weight.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You think I don't?
> It goes in a bag whose strap can be slung over one shoulder. Give him a minute and VP'll check the weight.


 
Smallest and lightest one (walkstool comfort 45) is 600g (a pound and a half), built to take up to 150kg load. Heaviest and longest one (walkstool comfort 55) is 800g (just shy of two punds) and is built to take a 225kg load. Basically, they were designed for hunters, soldiers and other reprobates who carry lots of kit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smallest and lightest one (walkstool comfort 45) is 600g (a pound and a half), built to take up to 150kg load. Heaviest and longest one (walkstool comfort 55) is 800g (just shy of two punds) and is built to take a 225kg load. Basically, they were designed for hunters, soldiers and other reprobates who carry lots of kit.


 
Shame on you, calling Greebo a reprobate


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You think I don't?
> It goes in a bag whose strap can be slung over one shoulder. Give him a minute and VP'll check the weight.


 
Yeah, but your bag's probably bigger than my bag (which is where the seat would end up)


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Shame on you, calling Greebo a reprobate


Shame on you for implying that I'm not a reprobate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Shame on you, calling Greebo a reprobate


 
She doesn't use it, you narna, I do! 

And she *is* a reprobate! I have signed affadavits from witnesses and everything!


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, but your bag's probably bigger than my bag (which is where the seat would end up)


No, it comes with its own bag, which adds next to no bulk or weight.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Blimey, they're not cheap are they?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> She doesn't use it, you narna, I do!
> 
> And she *is* a reprobate! I have signed affadavits from witnesses and everything!


 
I know she doesn't!  She's the reprobate who carries it


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Blimey, they're not cheap are they?


Worth every penny though - you can even use it in the shower.  BTW it feels a lot steadier and more comfortable than a lot of the seating sold in camping shops.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Blimey, they're not cheap are they?


 
No, they're not, but unlike just about everything else on the market, they're precision-engineered and as robust as fuck, so we thought "better to buy something expensive that'll last 20 years of wear and tear, than to buy a new cheapie every year".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I know she doesn't! She's the reprobate who carries it


 
No, that'd be me.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

There's only 1 second-hand one on Ebay.  What do you think my chances of winning it are?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There's only 1 second-hand one on Ebay. What do you think my chances of winning it are?


If you don't bid, you don't get.  Which size is it?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> If you don't bid, you don't get. Which size is it?


 
I'm guessing by description, top right one 

http://www.walkstool.com/uk/product/indexframe.html

description on ebay says " folds to 340 mm opens up to 570 mm"


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm guessing by description, top right one <snip>
> description on ebay says " folds to 340 mm opens up to 570 mm"


Going by the folded size, it's the 50cm/20" seat height.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Going by the folded size, it's the 50cm/20" seat height.


 
So just over a foot long folded then?

*wonders whether it'll fit in bag*


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So just over a foot long folded then?
> 
> *wonders whether it'll fit in bag*


Are you wondering about being able to get it into cabin baggage when flying?  If so, try fitting it diagonally.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Are you wondering about being able to get it into cabin baggage when flying? If so, try fitting it diagonally.


 
No, in my handbag!


----------



## Greebo (Jul 12, 2012)

Sling it over your shoulder!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 12, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Sling it over your shoulder!


 
We've had this discussion, and I have no shoulders and I don't like things on my back!

Anyway, I'm going to stop this conversation in case someone has a go at me for disrupting thread 

Watching June Brown and old people documentary


----------



## culder (Jul 13, 2012)

Hello everyone - I've been away since last Friday, so I've only just caught up with everything.

I've signed the petition about recording.

Glad to see there's some good news out there, and I've got more to add - I got home yesterday to find a letter in the post confirming that I've won my appeal, and when I checked my bank account online this morning I found that my full back-pay has gone in!

I can buy some decent Christmas presents this year!


----------



## culder (Jul 13, 2012)

Nearly forgot - my MP - David Crausby, Bolton North East - has signed the EDM and sent me a letter about it in the post.

There are 70 on the list now. How many do you think it needs?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 13, 2012)

culder said:


> Nearly forgot - my MP - David Crausby, Bolton North East - has signed the EDM and sent me a letter about it in the post.
> 
> There are 70 on the list now. How many do you think it needs?


My MP still hasn't 

And she's Labour.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 13, 2012)

culder said:


> Hello everyone - I've been away since last Friday, so I've only just caught up with everything.
> 
> I've signed the petition about recording.
> 
> ...


 
Congratulations culder.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 13, 2012)

culder said:


> Hello everyone - I've been away since last Friday, so I've only just caught up with everything.
> 
> I've signed the petition about recording.
> 
> ...


Really pleased for you, culder, brilliant news!

Make sure you spend that back-pay down to a level where it doesn't affect your benefits


----------



## Greebo (Jul 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Really pleased for you, culder, brilliant news!
> 
> Make sure you spend that back-pay down to a level where it doesn't affect your benefits


A new good quality mattress is a good place to start, or a better duvet, or more energy efficient white goods.


----------



## culder (Jul 14, 2012)

It isn't quite enough to affect my benefits, EG! A new mattress is a very good idea, though, except that I'd also have to pay the Council £25 to take the old one away...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2012)

culder said:


> It isn't quite enough to affect my benefits, EG! A new mattress is a very good idea, though, except that I'd also have to pay the Council £25 to take the old one away...


 
Some companies include taking the old one away in their delivery service.


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## culder (Jul 14, 2012)

Oh, I didn't know that! I'll have a browse later. Unfortunately, I know I haven't got enough for a Tempur mattress. I sleep on one of those when we visit my boyfriend's parents. It's fantastic!


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## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

culder said:


> It isn't quite enough to affect my benefits, EG! A new mattress is a very good idea, though, except that I'd also have to pay the Council £25 to take the old one away...


I just didn't want the evil sods to take back what they'd just given you, you know what they're like.


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## culder (Jul 14, 2012)

Not if they know what's good for them...


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I just didn't want the evil sods to take back what they'd just given you, you know what they're like.


 
It's totally unfair that they should be able to do that, as if you'd had it when you were entitled to it, ie. weekly over months, you wouldn't go over the limit


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## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's totally unfair that they should be able to do that, as if you'd had it when you were entitled to it, ie. weekly over months, you wouldn't go over the limit


Nothing about their system is fair though.


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## Greebo (Jul 14, 2012)

culder said:


> Oh, I didn't know that! I'll have a browse later. Unfortunately, I know I haven't got enough for a Tempur mattress. I sleep on one of those when we visit my boyfriend's parents. It's fantastic!


You could probably afford a good mattress and a tempur overlay though.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You could probably afford a good mattress and a tempur overlay though.


The best mattress I ever had came from a Blindcraft factory


----------



## Greebo (Jul 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The best mattress I ever had came from a Blindcraft factory


Good to know that. *adds to list for next time*


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## culder (Jul 14, 2012)

Yes, I'll have a look, Greebo. Although I think even the overlays are quite expensive.


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## culder (Jul 14, 2012)

Ooh - just looked at Tempur toppers, and they cost almost all of my back-pay!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Good to know that. *adds to list for next time*


It was a Super Backcare one. Absolutely amazing.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

I have to admit, I'm not a fan of tempur mattresses myself, doesn't seem to help my particular back problem.


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## Greebo (Jul 14, 2012)

culder said:


> Ooh - just looked at Tempur toppers, and they cost almost all of my back-pay!


 Even a 2" generic one, or would that be too thin?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2012)

Early Day Motion 295 (Atos) now has the 11th highest number of signatures for all EDMs so far this session, and STILL no sign of my MP actually signing it 
EDM No.​​Title​​Primary Sponsor​​Signatures​​Early day motion46​ FUNDING FOR THE THALIDOMIDE VICTIMS PILOT SCHEME​ Meale, Alan​ 175​Early day motion47​ REDUCING FUEL BILLS THROUGH ENERGY EFFICIENCY​ Aldous, Peter​ 130​Early day motion54​ SCHOOL FOOD STANDARDS​ Goldsmith, Zac​ 105​Early day motion55​ LOCALISATION OF PUBLIC SECTOR PAY​ Lloyd, Tony​ 103​Early day motion132​ BEECROFT REPORT'S PROPOSAL FOR NO FAULT DISMISSAL​ Love, Andrew​ 98​Early day motion193​ TRANSPOSITION OF EU DIRECTIVE 2010/63/EU AND ANIMAL EXPERIMENTS​ Sanders, Adrian​ 92​Early day motion31​ VAT ON STATIC HOLIDAY CARAVANS​ Stuart, Graham​ 86​Early day motion96​ TRIDENT REPLACEMENT​ Corbyn, Jeremy​ 85​Early day motion104​ RAF BOMBER COMMAND MEMORIAL - HYDE PARK CORNER​ McCartney, Karl​ 74​Early day motion60​ AIR AMBULANCE SERVICES​ Bayley, Hugh​ 73​Early day motion295​ ATOS​ McDonnell, John​ 71​Early day motion174​ AIR PASSENGER DUTY​ Stringer, Graham​ 66​


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 14, 2012)

Now then, a friend of mine's got a medical at the end of this month and, hopefully, she'll pass coz her physical health is pretty poor, but, if she fails, what I'd like to know is what's the procedure for an appeal? Have I got this right, first of all you ask for a review of the original decision, then you appeal? And do you continue getting paid in the interim, before the appeal is heard?

Sorry if any of this has been asked before.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 14, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Now then, a friend of mine's got a medical at the end of this month and, hopefully, she'll pass coz her physical health is pretty poor, but, if she fails, what I'd like to know is what's the procedure for an appeal? Have I got this right, first of all you ask for a review of the original decision, then you appeal? And do you continue getting paid in the interim, before the appeal is heard?
> 
> Sorry if any of this has been asked before.


Payment of whatever you were entitled to ceases on the day which the DWP decides you're not entitled to it. if you win your review (or appeal, if it comes to that) you'll get a backpayment.

You have exactly one month to ask for an appeal from the day on which the decision was made by the DWP. NB this *isn't* the date on which you receive the letter telling you their decision, which could have taken a fortnight (aka "10 working days") to reach you.

So...1) Contact the CAB/disability rights people etc, and take all your paperwork with you. Ask them for help.
2) Request a review of the decision and state exactly why, giving evidence to back up your request. Tempting as it may be, "I can't believe that you could have read my form and believe that I don't meet any of the criteria at all you muppet, what the hell is wrong with you people?" is not reason enough for a review. Instead, try something like "you have decided I need no help cooking and preparing a main meal for myself. I believe your decision is wrong because I'm unable to lift pans without severe pain, can't work the controls on the cooker, and the last time I tried to chop anything it shot out of my hand".
3)Prepare for war (aka the appeal). If you win the review, that's great. If you don't, you'll have gained extra time needed to gather as much as you need for the appeal.


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## Glitter (Jul 14, 2012)

You receive ESA whilst the appeal is in. You might have to request it though


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## cesare (Jul 14, 2012)

Glitter said:


> You receive ESA whilst the appeal is in. You might have to request it though



Has it changed recently? Friend of mine had ESA stopped after assessment and is going  through appeal process now but no ESA in meantime.


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## Greebo (Jul 14, 2012)

While I think of it, you'll need to request a copy of the medical report, as it'll probably show something which contradicted what the claimant put on the form. If in doubt, the DWP are inclined to believed whoever did the medical.


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## Glitter (Jul 14, 2012)

cesare said:


> Has it changed recently? Friend of mine had ESA stopped after assessment and is going  through appeal process now but no ESA in meantime.


No. They just don't tell you.

Get her to call them. Once the appeal is in it should be in ayment.


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## Glitter (Jul 14, 2012)

cesare said:


> Has it changed recently? Friend of mine had ESA stopped after assessment and is going  through appeal process now but no ESA in meantime.


Here's a link to it

http://www.adviceguide.org.uk/engla..._an_employment_and_support_allowance_decision


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## cesare (Jul 14, 2012)

Glitter said:


> No. They just don't tell you.
> 
> Get her to call them. Once the appeal is in it should be in ayment.



Ta, I'll get him to call, thanks.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 14, 2012)

Thanks everyone who replied


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## audiotech (Jul 15, 2012)

If she is assessed as "fit for work" and believes she isn't, then she needs to see her GP as quickly as possible for a medical certificate to state this. Send in the medical certificate and the subsequent appeal form which will be received making her aware of the decision made, based on the WCA carried out by Atos Healthcare straight away. The claimant will then receive the lower rate of ESA, without the extra component, until the date of the appeal.

Meanwhile, under the provisions of the Data Protection Act ask for a copy of the report and all relevant documentation relating to the decision made. If the claimant has difficulty reading the notes made by the Atos practitioner at the assessment attended, then request these to be transcribed and type written, if they refuse then a request can me made to the appeals Tribunal, who can order the DWP to do this.


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## captainmission (Jul 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's totally unfair that they should be able to do that, as if you'd had it when you were entitled to it, ie. weekly over months, you wouldn't go over the limit


 
Back pay of ESA (or dla, JSA, tax credits, HB) is ignored as capital for 52 weeks anyway. So even if someone is over the capital limit there's pleanty of time for it to 'diminish'.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 16, 2012)

captainmission said:


> Back pay of ESA (or dla, JSA, tax credits, HB) is ignored as capital for 52 weeks anyway. So even if someone is over the capital limit there's pleanty of time for it to 'diminish'.


 
Oh, never realised that


----------



## yardbird (Jul 16, 2012)

captainmission said:


> Back pay of ESA (or dla, JSA, tax credits, HB) is ignored as capital for 52 weeks anyway. So even if someone is over the capital limit there's pleanty of time for it to 'diminish'.


When I had my result re my ESA and they paid me four year's shortages in one hit, I inquired what would happen if it took me over a threshold.
I was told that I would not be affected as the error was theirs.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 16, 2012)

yardbird said:


> When I had my result re my ESA and they paid me four year's shortages in one hit, I inquired what would happen if it took me over a threshold.
> I was told that I would not be affected as the error was theirs.


 
But did they not say for how long you wouldn't be affected?  I'd check that I would


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## captainmission (Jul 16, 2012)

in the case of official error where a payment is over £5,000  they should ignore it up until the end of your award


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 16, 2012)

captainmission said:


> in the case of official error where a payment is over £5,000 they should ignore it up until the end of your award


 
So what if they decide to reassess you in 6 months?


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## captainmission (Jul 16, 2012)

that's still part of the same award. It only ends if you withdraw the claim or you no longer have entitlement to IR-ESA and the JC+ terminates your claim. If you claim IR-ESA, Income based JSA or IS with no gap in between it continues to be ingored for the whole period of this claim


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## culder (Jul 17, 2012)

Going back to the EDM we've been asking our MPs to sign - this is the reply received by someone on another website. To be honest, I didn't read all of it. You'll probably recognise the MP's name.

*Thank you for your email about the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and EDM 295. I am sorry to disappoint you but I sign very few EDMs.*

_*I am aware of the difficulties that people have been facing and realise that you are troubled by the difficulties with the WCA. It is hard enough to deal with a disability or illness such as ME, without having to worry about undergoing an assessment and it is important that this process is improved. *_

_*However, I can assure you Government is working hard to get the WCA right. It inherited an assessment from the previous Government that was flawed and is continuously improving the medical test to ensure it is as fair and effective as possible. *_

_*The Government is clear that the WCA is about helping people who can work get back into employment and that disabled people who need unconditional support will continue to receive it. It is vital that we support people who were written off to a lifetime on benefits into jobs and the new Work Programme will help them overcome the barriers they face to get back into work. *_

_*I know that the Government wants to ensure that the WCA is as fair and accurate as possible. Since coming to power, the Government has recognised that the WCA was not as robust as it should be and has set about introducing a number of improvements to the assessment process. Professor Malcolm Harrington, a leading occupational health expert, has been asked to independently review the WCA and has so far completed two annual reviews.*_

_*In both cases, the Government has accepted all of Professor Harrington's recommendations. It is also worth noting that Professor Harrington commented that since his first review of the assessment in 2010, "the process had noticeably changed for the better".*_

_*The figure of 40 per cent of appeals proving successful is based on all the assessments since 2008 when the WCA was first introduced. Although it can be difficult to provide an accurate figure because of course the most recent data on appeals may still be going through the appeals process itself. Data for the latest quarter (December 2010 Feb 2011) suggest that the number of decisions successfully overturned is currently at 32 per cent and is continuing to improve as the WCA becomes more robust as a result of the changes that the Government has made. *_

_*I think it is imperative the Government presses ahead with this current programme of reform to ensure that WCA is fit for purpose and commands the trust and respect of claimants, medical professionals and the taxpayer alike. Professor Harrington continues to lead the review process and submits annual reports to the Government on the WCA.*_

_*The Government continues to engage with a variety of representative groups that act on behalf of disabled people who suffer from a range of different conditions. By working with these groups and Atos, I believe the assessment process is improving and I hope that the process continues on this upward trajectory.*_

_*Thank you again for taking the time to contact me.*_

_*Yours sincerely*_

_*LIAM FOX*_
_*Parliamentary Office of the Rt Hon Dr Liam Fox MP*_


Can't remember if this link has been posted here -

http://www.gopetition.com/petitions...-of-no-confidence-in-the-uk-coalit.html#fbbox


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

culder said:


> Going back to the EDM we've been asking our MPs to sign - this is the reply received by someone on another website. To be honest, I didn't read all of it. You'll probably recognise the MPs name.
> 
> *Thank you for your email about the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) and EDM 295. I am sorry to disappoint you but I sign very few EDMs.*
> 
> ...


 


That reply made me very angry - patronising cock blaming labour. 'I don't sign EDMs'. Knobend.


----------



## culder (Jul 17, 2012)

It's really bad, isn't it?

Don't forget to sign the petition, though!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

culder said:


> It's really bad, isn't it?
> 
> Don't forget to sign the petition, though!


Done.

Which is more than my sodding MP has done with the Early Day Motion. Given that other Glasgow MPs have signed it, I'd really like to know why she doesn't feel the need to. She hasn't even acknowledged my email.


----------



## culder (Jul 17, 2012)

That's really annoying. Have you tried e-mailing her again? Mine was away when I first tried, but after my 2nd e-mail he signed it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

culder said:


> That's really annoying. Have you tried e-mailing her again? Mine was away when I first tried, but after my 2nd e-mail he signed it.


I think I will, thanks culder


----------



## audiotech (Jul 17, 2012)

> 4.2.5 Information brought by the claimant to the assessment


​


> At times the claimant may bring additional evidence with them to the assessment. The HCP must read this evidence. You should ask the claimant whether they wish to have the letter included in their file in support of their claim. If so, it should be photocopied, a note made in the file of the source and date of receipt of the document, and the original returned to the claimant. If no copying facilities are available, offer to have the copying done at the Medical Services Centre and to have the original returned by post. If this is unacceptable to the claimant, you should explain that it cannot be used in support of the claim as it will not be seen and considered by the Decision Maker.​


The above is taken from this:​http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf​


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> ​
> The above is taken from this:​http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf​


Make copies and take them to an assessment yourself. No way would I trust them to take a document back somewhere, copy it and return it to me, going on past reported behaviour.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 18, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Make copies and take them to an assessment yourself. No way would I trust them to take a document back somewhere, copy it and return it to me, going on past reported behaviour.


 
Well of course. The important point in the above is: "The HCP *must* read this [additional] evidence" with regards to the assessment taking place at that time.

My emphasis.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 18, 2012)

More info on the recording of Atos assessments:


> ...if a claimant is unable to attend their WCA because Atos healthcare are unable to comply with the request the postponement will not be attributed to the claimant.


 
http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/...ith-request-to-audio-record-assessment-foi-r/


----------



## laptop (Jul 18, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Make copies and take them to an assessment yourself. No way would I trust them to take a document back somewhere, copy it and return it to me, going on past reported behaviour.


 
Exactly: I read the above instruction as a heavy hint: "Do not have a photocopier".


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 18, 2012)

laptop said:


> Exactly: I read the above instruction as a heavy hint: "Do not have a photocopier".


Or have a broken photocopier (or one with a sign saying 'broken' on it).


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

Hurrah! Back-pay and heating allowances received and banked.

Meanwhile, my MP has replied to me.

Although he's not signing McDonalds EDM, he's passed on my concerns, which he's also concerned about, to Chris Grayling asking for a response to the suicides and deaths of those found "fit for work" after WCA's by Atos Healthcare.

Keep the pressure on.

Update.

Edit: Turns out my MP thinks it is appropriate to sign the EDM in one of the letters I've received, but has said he has decided not to sign it in a letter he has sent to the Minister, Chris Grayling?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Hurrah! Back-pay and heating allowances received and banked.
> 
> Meanwhile, my MP has replied to me.
> 
> ...


 
Heating allowance?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Heating allowance?


 
Winter fuel payments to be precise.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Winter fuel payments to be precise.


 
oh


----------



## culder (Jul 19, 2012)

Oh yes, I got one of those, too. From the week when my IB was stopped, so I couldn't have it at the time. Well, it was a Cold Weather Payment (£25), not the Winter Fuel Allowance.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

culder said:


> Oh yes, I got one of those, too. From the week when my IB was stopped, so I couldn't have it at the time. Well, it was a Cold Weather Payment (£25), not the Winter Fuel Allowance.


 
That's the one and I received two.


----------



## culder (Jul 19, 2012)

Sounds about right. The Winter Fuel thing is the one they give to pensioners.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> That's the one and I received two.


 
Think we only got one this year in Brixton


----------



## geminisnake (Jul 19, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Think we only got one this year in Brixton


 
We didn't get any in NE Scotland!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 19, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> We didn't get any in NE Scotland!


 
You're joking?  I would have thought you had loads


----------



## audiotech (Jul 20, 2012)

Turns out my MP thinks it "appropriate to sign the EDM" in one of the letters I've received, but has said he has decided not to sign it in a copy of the letter he has sent to the Minister, Chris Grayling?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Turns out my MP thinks it "appropriate to sign the EDM" in one of the letters I've received, but has said he has decided not to sign it in a copy of the letter he has sent to the Minister, Chris Grayling?


 
That's called "being a politician".


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Turns out my MP thinks it "appropriate to sign the EDM" in one of the letters I've received, but has said he has decided not to sign it in a copy of the letter he has sent to the Minister, Chris Grayling?


It's called telling you a big porky-pie to keep you quiet. Although he's also assuming you're not checking the list of people who have signed.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

News article in the Guardian about recording of assessments:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/jul/20/fitness-for-work-tests-technical-chaos

The highlight - Atos are blatantly lying on their website in light of Chris Grayling's statement last week about claimants being offered other dates.

The DWP does a bit of bleating at the end, trying to say that only a small number of machines are broken, it's not true, they're fixing them and buying more. Honest.

Also:
'The shadow employment minister, Stephen Timms, who has written to Grayling to highlight his concerns about the lack of recording equipment, said: "I find it hard to believe that a company with a multimillion pound government contract is incapable of obtaining and operating sufficient recording devices."'


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I can't find the original link BUT I stumbled across the following one:
> http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatosmedicalreport.html
> 
> Read the section on Breach of Contract - given the complexities of his condition, he MUST be seen by a practitioner experience in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment.


Minnie - this is the link I found earlier that states he must be seen by a practitioner experienced in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment. You might want to print it out and take it with you to any assessment.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Minnie - this is the link I found earlier that states he must be seen by a practitioner experienced in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment. You might want to print it out and take it with you to any assessment.


 
Cheers.  Sure you provided it elsewhere but I can't remember where.  Probably buried under thousands of posts


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## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Cheers. Sure you provided it elsewhere but I can't remember where. Probably buried under thousands of posts


I was just going back through this thread and found it, I'd remembered it the other day but couldn't find it. And yes, it was buried


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I was just going back through this thread and found it, I'd remembered it the other day but couldn't find it. And yes, it was buried


 
I'm not going through all these pages.  I'm laying off here a bit to give arms a rest


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

Interesting observation article published by a Glasgow GP in the British Medical Journal:
http://www.bmj.com/content/344/bmj.e1114.full?ijkey=KKaJubnBTOqaO3z&keytype=ref


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'm not going through all these pages. I'm laying off here a bit to give arms a rest


You've put a lot of hours into getting the form filled out, you deserve a break.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2012)

> In an answer to a parliamentary question on Atos from Frank Field (lab) Chris Grayling said :


​


> "Based on the results of a trial during 2011, we have not implemented universal recording for claimants going through the work capability assessment (WCA). ​We have asked Atos Healthcare to accommodate requests for audio recording, where a claimant makes a request in advance of their assessment. ​This approach began in late 2011 and we will monitor take up during 2012 before making a decision on the requirement for recording assessments, taking into account factors such as value for money and the value it adds to the WCA process. ​As part of this process we are also reviewing Atos capacity to provide recordings for those claimants who currently request one".​
> We at Disabled People against Cuts (DPAC), Black Triangle and Social Welfare Union (SWU) want to make sure that we gather the REAL facts on what people are experiencing. We suspect that the government will try to pull the option for recordings of WCA completely due to what they will say is a lack of demand, so we have put together a short survey to gather information on the demand for recordings and on other issues on the WCA.​
> Please pass this survey on to as many people as possible. If you know someone who would like a printed paper copy of this survey please send their details to mail@dpac.net.uk​


​The survey is confidential, not that long (mainly a tick box exercise). Likely for most to take just a few minutes of your time.​​Go to survey here:​https://www.surveymonkey.com/s/FGKJBSQ​


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Minnie - this is the link I found earlier that states he must be seen by a practitioner experienced in neuro disorders in order to receive a fair assessment. You might want to print it out and take it with you to any assessment.


What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 21, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?


 
That would be funny.  Would need about 6


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 21, 2012)

DWP Report: Decision making on Employment and Support Allowance claims pdf

Couple of points I found interesting as Atos always claim final decision lies with the DWP Decision Maker.



> Page 29.
> Although Atos HCPs did not have to change their advice (and it was up to the DM to decide whether to follow it or not, based on the balance of evidence), DMs in those Benefit Centres where they were advised to always refer back to Atos felt frustrated by instances when HCPs were reluctant to alter their views in light of additional evidence submitted by the claimant which was perceived to be substantial by the DM.
> ‘[Previous experience] doesn’t inspire me to send things back. Some of them [Atos HCPs] kind of give the impression that they are slapping your legs like how dare you question that!’


 
Page 34.


> None of the DMs interviewed for the research had, at any point, received information on the number or types of decision they had made that had been overturned at the appeal stage. Without this, DMs felt that it was currently difficult to improve or learn. It also meant that there was no way for them to know whether new processes that had been introduced (such as needing to write more detailed justifications) were having an impact on the appeal rate. It was felt that if this feedback were available it would help inform DMs how to approach more complex or borderline cases in the future.


 
Page 37.



> 7.3.1 Communication of guidance on role of Decision Makers and Atos
> The research found considerable variation in DMs’ views of their role in the decision-making process, and some felt that the consistency of the communication of guidance about their role could be improved. Although most reported that the publication of the first Harrington Review had initially led to them feeling more empowered to reach decisions based on their experience and expertise, many felt that they had since received instructions that removed some of the control that they had over decision-making.
> Some felt that they still had some ability to reach their own decision over borderline cases where they disagreed with the Atos advice, while others felt limited in this respect. In the latter group were those who felt they had been expressly told that they could not make a decision that ran contrary to the Atos advice without securing Atos agreement to do this (which they had found Atos reluctant to provide).


 

Page 38.


> 7.3.7 Training for Decision Makers
> Most DMs felt that they had not received any training that had been specifically designed for DMs. Instead, they felt that the training they had received had been adapted from material designed with other operational staff in mind. Some DMs felt they would benefit greatly from talking through case study claims and how they should be interpreted.
> Some less experienced DMs felt that they would benefit from a better understanding of the implications of outcomes of ESA claims (i.e. what happens when claimants are disallowed or enter the WRAG). They felt that a better understanding of the support mechanisms in place for claimants in these groups would put them in a better position when explaining the implications of their decisions to claimants and in determining the suitability of particular outcomes for individual claimants.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> DWP Report: Decision making on Employment and Support Allowance claims pdf
> 
> Couple of points I found interesting as Atos always claim final decision lies with the DWP Decision Maker.


 
Thanks for that, but there is this to consider from a claimants viewpoint:



> HCPs and Decision Makers are taught and encouraged to “read between the lines” on the assumption that this will get them nearer to the “truth”.  The associated assumption that they think justifies this underhand approach is that all claimants are potentially or actually fraudsters, so there is a need to trip them up, catch them out etc. to uncover the deception they are bound to be perpetrating.
> Quite how this attitude fits with the Civil Service Code of Ethics requiring integrity and honesty is a mystery and just another of the contradictions and overt hypocrisy being demonstrated by DWP through its welfare reform plans.


 
Don't have a source for this, but it was written on a blog by someone battling with both Atos Healthcare and the DWP.


----------



## yardbird (Jul 21, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Don't have a source for this, but it was written on a blog by someone battling with both Atos Healthcare and the DWP.


I've read that blog and got wound up.
As an honest person, I answered the questions I was asked honestly (with slight adjustments tbf, to take into account an MS 'bad day') the least I would expect is to have my answers treated rationally by a rational person.
Not by some fucking mystic meg who is "reading between the lines"!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> What happens if you have multiple problems? Do a team of ATOS doctors turn up ?


According to their rules, technically yes - and this is where the whole assessment as it currently stands breaks down, because it assumes from the start that the claimant only suffers from one complex condition (or at best, a number of 'simple' conditions that are inter-related). The software simply isn't designed to assess claimants with two or more complex conditions. Thus the idea that a 'healthcare practitioner' with no specialist knowledge or disability assessment training (mandated by the DWP manual) can accurately assess a claimant by using this software is laughable.

The LIMA software as used by atos is simply not fit for purpose in this context - in fact I doubt it's fit for anything to do with disability assessment.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 21, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The LIMA software as used by atos is simply not fit for purpose in this context - in fact I doubt it's fit for anything to do with disability assessment.


 
It isn't intended for disability assessment. It is designed to create a bogus paper trail so that the DWP can "justify" taking benefits away from hundreds of thousands of sick or disabled people. As such it is eminently fit for purpose.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 22, 2012)

Well, one bit of good news though, a colleague of mine was meant to be having a medical at the end of this month, preparing for the worst I asked advice about appealing a decision a couple of pages back, anyway she got a letter yesterday saying something along the lines of Dear Mrs ***, due to the nature of your condition and the medical evidence we already have, you do not have to attend a medical and we will continue paying your ESA.  Buzzing.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, one bit of good news though, a colleague of mine was meant to be having a medical at the end of this month, preparing for the worst I asked advice about appealing a decision a couple of pages back, anyway she got a letter yesterday saying something along the lines of Dear Mrs ***, due to the nature of your condition and the medical evidence we already have, you do not have to attend a medical and we will continue paying your ESA. Buzzing.


Great news Frances, made up for your colleague


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> It isn't intended for disability assessment. It is designed to create a bogus paper trail so that the DWP can "justify" taking benefits away from hundreds of thousands of sick or disabled people. As such it is eminently fit for purpose.


But that's precisely it - a BOGUS paper trail, which doesn't stand up to any kind of scrutiny. Not when unqualified healthcare practitioners are used, and not when the 'reports' generated by the LIMA software are obviously rubbish. The fact that the appeal rate is 40-70% depending on the source bears this out.

Bottom line is that targeting some of the most vulnerable people in society is wrong, no matter what process is used. Target the people who are avoiding tax.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2012)

Or, even better, target the politicians. Preferably with paper bags full of dogshit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or, even better, target the politicians. Preferably with paper bags full of dogshit.


No, not dogshit, the soiled clothing of those they're targeting. Call it karma.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2012)

And sent without the correct postage (if any) or a return address. Get them to pay for it.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 23, 2012)

Anyone put a link to this yet? 

http://www.scotsman.com/news/health...-at-treatment-by-benefits-officials-1-2422211


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Anyone put a link to this yet?
> 
> http://www.scotsman.com/news/health...-at-treatment-by-benefits-officials-1-2422211


 
Not seen it, and no doubt, other than Disability websites and Scottish newspapers, you won't see it anywhere else


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2012)

A few years ago Panorama broadcast the very influential 'Britain on the sick' programme primarily about de-industrialised areas like the Valleys and the rates of IB take up, (informed by useful idiot Prof Steve Fothergill of Sheffield Hallam Uni) it was challenged at the time(inc me!) and i reckon the onus is on the BBC to return there to see the impact of the reforms which were undoubtedly sped along by the impact of the programme on policy makers, etc..


----------



## culder (Jul 23, 2012)

That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

culder said:


> That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.


 
Hm, does it clash with gymnastics?


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 23, 2012)

Class traitor!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Class traitor!


 
I shall watch one and record the other if that helps?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2012)

More on recording assessments:




> 2) We informed the DWP that some people had reported being told that recordings would no longer be offered.





> The DWP said that such advice was wrong: “If they [people taking WCAs] are being told that [it is no longer possible to have WCAs recorded], then they are being misinformed, because we know that there are working machines.” The DWP said it was “working to fix the machines - the few that have problems.” We asked what people should do if they were told that recordings were no longer being offered. The department's advice was that people should contact the DWP: “We're the ones that are owning this... If they are having misinformation, we can obviously follow that up with Atos.”


 
More here:

http://falseeconomy.org.uk/blog/mor...ity-assessment-is-atos-advice-right-or-the-dw


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

> “We're the ones that are owning this... If they are having misinformation, we can obviously follow that up with Atos.” More here:


 

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/...ith-request-to-audio-record-assessment-foi-r/

I can't keep up with this nonsense


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2012)

Once again the word 'shambolic' comes to mind.


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2012)

culder said:


> That's reminded me - I read somewhere else that Panorama will be about ATOS and ESA assessments on the 30th of this month - next Monday, everyone! Should be worth watching.


 
Good, get it up on youtube, it will just be washed away with all the Olympics stuff, and it will be on BBC2...


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2012)

Dispatches next week, 'Britain on the sick'

It's another exposure of Atos and its methods, rubbish that they are both on during the olympics..

just asked Ch4 to reschedule...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 23, 2012)

treelover said:


> Good, get it up on youtube, it will just be washed away with all the Olympics stuff, and it will be on BBC2...


 
Bet BBC purposely put it on during the Olympics for exactly that reason, hoping it would go unnoticed


----------



## treelover (Jul 23, 2012)

*Disabled or Faking It?*






Duration: 30 minutes
Panorama investigates the government's plans to end the so-called 'sick note culture' and their attempts to get millions of people off disability benefits and into work. In Britain's modern welfare state, millions are being paid to private companies to assess sick and disabled claimants but is the system working? Or are new tests wrongly victimising those who deserve support the most?


Actually the Panorama one looks like the usual BBC bifurcation of deserving/undeserving poor, they just can't seem to have a programme about the undoubted brutalities and absurdities of ATOS and welfare reform...


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2012)

Have you seen it then?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 24, 2012)

Disabled or Faking It?

If that's the name of the programme, it gives me the impression that it's not entirely on the side of the disabled.  I'm probably wrong though, but why use "Faking" in the title?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 24, 2012)

It's a perception being propagated by the mainstream media, especially the tabloids and a number of people believing it. I'll have an opinion on it when I've seen it.


----------



## culder (Jul 24, 2012)

I've just seen this on FB - same date as Panorama -

_Dispatches Channel 4, 30th July 2012:_

_ Reporter Jackie Long goes undercover to investigate the methods used to assess sickness and disability benefit claimants, and gauge their fitness for work._
_ 8pm to 8.30pm_

_ Showing Mon 30 Jul 8pm - 8:30pm
Channel 4
Repeat Mon 30 Jul 9pm
Channel 4 +1
Repeat Fri 3 Aug 2:30am
Channel 4_


----------



## culder (Jul 24, 2012)

Oops - I posted that before I saw the last few posts!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 24, 2012)

Really does seem like they're trying to bury the programmes while the Olympics are on


----------



## culder (Jul 24, 2012)

I hadn't thought of that - not as cynical as I thought I was! But it's obvious now you mention it.


----------



## treelover (Jul 24, 2012)

ring ch4 and complain, etc..


----------



## culder (Jul 24, 2012)

Just seen this -

http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/845


----------



## colette (Jul 25, 2012)

treelover said:


> *Disabled or Faking It?*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


   I fucking knew it i posted as much on the Guardian website earlier.  BBC tow the Tory line when it comes to benefits.


----------



## colette (Jul 25, 2012)

Add message | Report | Message postercarernotasaintWed 18-Jul-12 15:33:46
the BBC left wing? What a load of bollocks.
In the same week of the RBS/NatWest/Ulster shambles there was not ONE mention of it on Question Time. Yet on that particular edition they still found a good 15 mins to have a go at benefit claimants.
Newsnight stitched up a young single mum earlier this year presenting her as unemployed when she wasnt.
John Humphreys did a programme about the welfare state earlier this year saying it was too "generous". omitting the fact that many people are having to use food banks
and then he did a Panorama programme about people in Greece having to rely on the generosity of charities!!!! Yet the idiot refuses to see the connection.
BBC also broadcasts Saints and Scroungers. If you want any more examples Flatpack im sure i can come up with some more. Left wing MY ARSE!


----------



## colette (Jul 25, 2012)

audiotech my post (above ) is a copy of paste jobby of what i wrote in a mumsnet thread. It was a discussion we were having about the fact that the 2 part documentary on the riots was cancelled last week. The above post was in response to someone who said that the BBC is left wing!
  Audio you can see from the examples ive mentioned in said post that the BBC do have a record of towing the Government line. That is why i dont hold out much hope for the Panorama documentary. I shall still watch it of course but im more interested in the Dispatches one.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 25, 2012)

The BBC is a part of the state.

This is the blurb I've read in an email from 'Benefits and Work' same as above.



> Panorama investigates the government's plans to end the





> *so-called* 'sick note culture' and their attempts to get millions of people off disability benefits and into work. In Britain's modern welfare state, millions are being paid to private companies to assess sick and disabled claimants but is the system working? *Or are new tests wrongly victimising* those who deserve support the most?



...and Channel 4 Dispatches:



> Using undercover filming, reporter Jackie Long investigates the





> *shocking processes* used to assess whether sickness and disability benefit claimants should be declared fit for work.



My emphasis.
Is it likely the two programmes will come to different conclusions, or a likelihood the conclusions, given the evidence out there, will be similar?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 25, 2012)

‎





> Please read if you have had an ATOS assessment. Received an email from the Benefits and Work website ( you don't have to be a member to see this ) Professor Harrington who has been doing the review into ATOS wants to hear from anyone who has been through the ATOS assessment as to whether the changes he has recommended are making a difference. It's basically whether we are being dealt with fairly and effectively since the changes were made


​


> It goes on to say that the DWP have made it extremely difficult for anyone to answer the questions and probably working on the assumption that hardly anyone will have the chance to respond, will get a favourable outcome for them. It explains it fully on the site - too much to put here.​Benefits and Work have put together a questionnaire themselves and so it's important that all of us who have suffered at the hands of ATOS to fill this in and it will then be forwarded to Prof Harrington. Not much time - it has to be back by the 7th September. It seems that it was deliberate that they only give us a few weeks to do it and that it coincided with the school summer holidays. Pass this on to as many people as you can.​


http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/harrington2/​


----------



## culder (Jul 25, 2012)

Gah! It took me too long to complete, and I'll have to start again!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2012)

colette said:


> BBC also broadcasts Saints and Scroungers. If you want any more examples Flatpack im sure i can come up with some more. Left wing MY ARSE!


 
Exactly, which is why I have my doubts about this programme


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 25, 2012)

culder said:


> Gah! It took me too long to complete, and I'll have to start again!


it's got a 20 min limit for the session..
sorry, i've not checked out the links yet, but http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/harrington says there is a downloadable text doc for you to fill in the answers so that you can copy/paste into an email (or i'd guess the online survey) at your leisure..


----------



## culder (Jul 26, 2012)

I vaguely remember seeing something about a time limit, but then forgot about it! I'll have another go a bit later.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 26, 2012)

Could you start the test then set the clock back on your PC an hour or 2 to give you extra time to fill it in?


----------



## treelover (Jul 26, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> it's got a 20 min limit for the session..
> sorry, i've not checked out the links yet, but http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/employment-and-support-allowance/harrington says there is a downloadable text doc for you to fill in the answers so that you can copy/paste into an email (or i'd guess the online survey) at your leisure..


 
thank goodness for B/W...


----------



## treelover (Jul 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Could you start the test then set the clock back on your PC an hour or 2 to give you extra time to fill it in?


 
Its appalling that it has a time limit, many disabled people have cognitive issues or are easily fatigued, this may be discriminatory and be challenged...


----------



## yardbird (Jul 26, 2012)

I've twice tried to complete it, but I need ages more time.
It's difficult for me to concentrate for long enough, I would have to do it in separate segments to cope.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 26, 2012)

treelover said:


> Its appalling that it has a time limit, many disabled people have cognitive issues or are easily fatigued, this may be discriminatory and be challenged...


might be worth asking b&w if they can change it?
seeing as whatever you enter onto the questionnaire will be emailed to you, for you to send to the consultation yourself, i'd guess it's maybe easier and more straightforward to just complete the text version instead (unless i've completely misunderstood how it works)?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 26, 2012)

Interesting blog:

'This review matters, so do try and complete this'.​ 


> We’ve created a text version of the questionnaire, so if you prefer you can type in that and then send your answers to Harrington.


​....and there's this on using the Atos complaints procedure.​ 
This too:

High Court rules Work Capability Assessment arguably unlawful.

The judge said:



> I consider that it is reasonably arguable that the reasonable adjustments
> required by the [Equality Act 2010] include the early obtaining of independent
> medical evidence where the documents submitted with the claim show that the
> claimant suffers from mental health problems and that this has not been done, or
> at least not done on a sufficiently widespread basis.


 
Solicitor, Ravi Low-Beer of the Public Law Project said:



> The present system results in many thousands of unnecessary appeals at great
> public expense, with a high success rate. What is not counted is the cost in
> human misery for those people who should never have had to go through the
> appeals process in the first place. This could be avoided if doctors were involved
> ...


----------



## geminisnake (Jul 26, 2012)

Not sure if folks have seen this but permission has been granted fro the MHRN to take the Govt/WCA to court.

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/

Apologies if this isn't the right place to put it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 26, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> Not sure if folks have seen this but permission has been granted fro the MHRN to take the Govt/WCA to court.
> 
> http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/
> 
> Apologies if this isn't the right place to put it.


 

Good

Wouldn't worry gemini.  So many ATOS/DWP threads, I'm never sure which one to post on


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 26, 2012)

geminisnake said:


> Not sure if folks have seen this but permission has been granted fro the MHRN to take the Govt/WCA to court.
> 
> http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/
> 
> Apologies if this isn't the right place to put it.


There's no wrong place, the more that's done to expose these wankers for the idiots they are, the better 

Thanks for posting it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 27, 2012)

'Driving disabled off benefits': Doctor claims Government has issued targets for 7 out of 8 to be reclassified as eligible for work

From the Mirror




> Medics are being given Government targets to boot the sick and disabled off benefits, a GP claims.
> The tactic is part of a ConDem drive to force the vulnerable into jobs, he found in a probe.
> He said experts testing Incapacity Benefit claimants were told they should rate only about one in eight as so disabled they will never work.
> The “quota” is allegedly enforced by French firm Atos, paid £100million a year for the testing, and is revealed by undercover doctor Steven Bick on Channel 4’s Dispatches on Monday.
> ...


 

Really can't wait to see the channel 4 Dispaches program now. Roll on Monday.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> 'Driving disabled off benefits': Doctor claims Government has issued targets for 7 out of 8 to be reclassified as eligible for work
> .


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

Please bump this to remind me to record it, as now have guests for Monday so might forget

I rekon the programme deserves its own thread as well.  It'll get buried here


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 27, 2012)

Guardian on the case now too. 



> Secret filming of training given to doctors recruited by the private company Atos to assess whether sickness and disability benefit applicants are fit for work suggests that staff are monitored to ensure they do not find excessive numbers of claimants eligible.
> The footage will trigger a new debate over whether there are fixed targets for the number of people who should be granted the new incapacity benefit – the employment and support allowance – something the government and Atos, the company hired by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to conduct the fitness for work tests, have consistently denied.
> The film also demonstrates the unease about the radically heightened eligibility criteria felt by some trainers employed by Atos to teach new recruits how to carry out the tests. It is now harder for some very severely disabled claimants to qualify for support. No matter how serious claimants problems are with their arms, for example, "as long as you've got one finger, and you can press a button," they would be found fit for work, a trainer explains.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Please bump this to remind me to record it, as now have guests for Monday so might forget
> 
> I rekon the programme deserves its own thread as well. It'll get buried here


This will be bumped a few times on Monday no doubt minnie. Can't wait to compare Dispaches with the BBC one. I'll be really surprised if the Beeb one isn't Tory scrounger bullshit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Guardian on the case now too.


 
Sounds quite revealing


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> This will be bumped a few times on Monday no doubt minnie. Can't wait to compare Dispaches with the BBC one. I'll be really surprised if the Beeb one isn't Tory scrounger bullshit.


 
Yeah.  Now Saints and Scroungers isn't on, I suppose the have to remind the British public that all disabled are dodgy


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah. Now Saints and Scroungers isn't on, I suppose the have to remind the British public that all disabled are dodgy


Well look at all the dodgy types that post on this thread.. I wouldn't trust 'em near a politician..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

I still can't get over the fact that they're both being shown the same day.  Is the BBC hoping people will watch the Dispatches one and not bother about watching their programme or the other way around?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 27, 2012)

Meanwhile, some of today's other headline news:


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jul 27, 2012)

Dragging out the same old headlines when they've been demolished by Full Fact. Talk about a media hate campaign. I fucking despise those Tory rags.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 27, 2012)

'Managing consent'


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Meanwhile, some of today's other headline news:


 
FFS. I see they don't manage to bury that amongst all the Olympics coverage

Are you sure that's not the same story I posted about a few days ago?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 27, 2012)

Some of the headlines in July *2011* I should have posted.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 30, 2012)

Don't forget Dispatches and Panorama tonight.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Time to bombard the media, social media, allies, etc with info and experiences on the ESA and the Atos medical test following these two TV programmes tonight: the undercover ATOS doctor on on Dispatches at 8pm Ch4 will be dynamite, for so long the DWP/Grayling have argued there are no targets, this programme destroys that position, the BBC 2 Panorama one at 8.30pm, with the awful title, 'Disabled or faking it?' I will reserve judgement on...


----------



## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

Quick query: I filled out an ESA50 in January and wasn't called for a WCA but was put straight in the WRAG group. I haven't had to attend any playgroup sessions as the disability advisor at my local JC just rings me occasionally to make sure I'm not dead yet.
I've now just received a new ESA50, are ESA50's normally sent out every six months or is something else going on here?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Quick query: I filled out an ESA50 in January and wasn't called for a WCA but was put straight in the WRAG group. I haven't had to attend any playgroup sessions as the disability advisor at my local JC just rings me occasionally to make sure I'm not dead yet.
> I've now just received a new ESA50, are ESA50's normally sent out every six months or is something else going on here?


 
The six-monthly reassessment seems to be fairly prevalent, and extremely arbitrary, so it's the usual DWP/Atos cuntish "business as usual", rather than them specifically fucking with you as an individual.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

Thanks VP; seems that my upcoming WCA will coincide with the beginning of my chemotherapy.  Vomiting and double incontinence it is then.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The six-monthly reassessment seems to be fairly prevalent, and extremely arbitrary, so it's the usual DWP/Atos cuntish "business as usual", rather than them specifically fucking with you as an individual.


 
Yep, I've read of people being put in the Support Group and receiving a new form to fill in 3 or 6 months later


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thanks VP; seems that my upcoming WCA will coincide with the beginning of my chemotherapy then. Vomiting and double incontinence it is then.


 
I hope you puke all over the assessor 

Seriously though, sorry to hear you're going to have to go through chemo and all the nasty side-effects


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

> Good honest hard-working people . . . white collar, blue collar it doesn’t matter what color shirt you have on. Good honest hard-working people continue, these are people of modest means . . . continue to elect these rich cocksuckers who don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t give a fuck about you . . . they don’t give a fuck about you. They don’t care about you at all . . . at all . . . at all,...


George Carlin. May 12, 1937 – June 22, 2008.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

'Polly Toynbee revealed some time ago how the DWP sends these kind of press releases only to certain sympathetic papers rather than to everyone on their mailing list. So the Guardian would never receive a copy because they'd probably ask for the supporting evidence. It's an abuse for Government Press Officers to concoct this nonsense and then target it at those who will publish it without question.'


just saw this on CIf regarding tabloid smear campaigns...


----------



## Libertad (Jul 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I hope you puke all over the assessor
> 
> Seriously though, sorry to hear you're going to have to go through chemo and all the nasty side-effects


 
Cheers Minnie  This is going to be another 48 week hit this time. 
No doubt they'll hassle me all the way through treatment until I kill someone, or myself. I'm considering absenting myself from the whole process, wait until the money runs out, wait until the housing benefit is stopped and I'm out on the street and then let the hospital sort it out.

If I were to take some fucker with me who should it be? Grayling or IDS?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> If I were to take some fucker with me who should it be? Grayling or IDS?


 
What's wrong with both of them?


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Cheers Minnie  This is going to be another 48 week hit this time.
> No doubt they'll hassle me all the way through treatment until I kill someone, or myself. I'm considering absenting myself from the whole process, wait until the money runs out, wait until the housing benefit is stopped and I'm out on the street and then let the hospital sort it out.
> 
> If I were to take some fucker with me who should it be? Grayling or IDS?


 
would it be too demanding to ask that you try for the pair?


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

Oh, and as for the 'ten people' on IB for 'acne' it is probably psoriasis and that is truly horrible...


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> If I were to take some fucker with me who should it be? Grayling or IDS?


 
You take Grayling and I'll take IDS.

Who is taking Osborne?


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

i'm loving how back problems has become synonomous with scrounger as well.


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## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> i'm loving how back problems has become synonomous with scrounger as well.


Yes, that particularly annoyed me, having a back problem. 

I'll do Osbourne, I'm sufficiently annoyed enough to have a go.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Cheers Minnie  This is going to be another 48 week hit this time.
> No doubt they'll hassle me all the way through treatment until I kill someone, or myself. I'm considering absenting myself from the whole process, wait until the money runs out, wait until the housing benefit is stopped and I'm out on the street and then let the hospital sort it out.
> 
> If I were to take some fucker with me who should it be? Grayling or IDS?


Sorry to hear that Libertad


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, that particularly annoyed me, having a back problem.
> 
> I'll do Osbourne, I'm sufficiently annoyed enough to have a go.


 

I'll hold your coat.


anyone who has ever expereinced any sort of back pain knows how debilitating it can be. thankfully mine cleared up with strengthening my back and an exceedingly loud and scary crunch.but a few weeks of having to knock back a couple of 30/500s so i dind't cry on getting out of bed in the morning gave me a good lesson in quite how lucky i am.

well, anyone with any empathy who has expereinced this. a lot of the people who moan about scroungers completely lack empathy.


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## culder (Jul 30, 2012)

Well I've just watched both programmes.

They both say the sort of things that aren't going to surprise anyone here, but in 30 minutes neither of them could go far enough.

Btw - I've checked this site a few times in the last few days and got no alerts to new posts. I came here anyway because of the TV programmes, and found loads of posts I hadn't seen before. Wtf?


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

culder said:


> Well I've just watched both programmes.
> 
> They both say the sort of things that aren't going to surprise anyone here, but in 30 minutes neither of them could go far enough.
> 
> Btw - I've checked this site a few times in the last few days and got no alerts to new posts. I came here anyway because of the TV programmes, and found loads of posts I hadn't seen before. Wtf?


 
if you visit the site and don't click on an alert for a watched thread, i think it won't give you alerts for that thread again until you visit it again.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> would it be too demanding to ask that you try for the pair?


 
True, why else would a shotgun have two barrels? I suggest loading your cartridges with 5p coins for extra destructive power if you have any left over out of your pittance giro.



toggle said:


> i'm loving how back problems has become synonomous with scrounger as well.


 
Ah yes, back trouble is always a euphemism for 'Well, the only thing wrong with YOUR back is that you never do any work with it.'

I'd dearly love to see them in the kind of pain I get on a pretty regular basis.


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

need another back massage hun?


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> need another back massage hun?


 
It would be quite nice, sweetie, yes.

But on a more serious note, some days the only reason I'll lie in bed long after getting up is avoiding getting up until I know that it'll hurt less to move than it will to stay there. My back muscles do have a nasty tendency to lock solid either in whole or in part, and the less said about the array of crunching and crackling noises made by my joints the better. But as the DWP and ATOS have a similar bedside manner to an Army doctor ('Well, you can breathe and whinge at the same time, therefore you're battle-ready and also a malingering tosser') I'm not really surprised by the disclosures of the programmes tonight.

I sometimes wonder if the DWP would only ever want to see my name again on a death certificate so they could instantly cut off my DLA. And they'd probably expect my executors to pay the postage on that as well.


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

well, your next of kin is your mother until i marry you.

Things i've learnt from you is that you have achieved so much more than you thought possible, once mere existance was no longer a constant fight. tske away the constant fight to survive and there's a lot of energy that could go into the sort of big society shit that the tories bleet on about, or being a decent human being and a good neighbour as anyone else would put it. or work for some people if society can adjust enough to having people who are different among them.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2012)

I get very little support from some of my work colleagues - I had a mild bout of pain today due to the air conditioning being in overdrive, so had to use my hot water bottle to prevent actual locking up of back. Had my fleece on as well. What annoys me about the pain is that it scrambles your brain - I can't think straight. Trying to explain that feeling to someone is nigh on impossible, people simply don't get it, for the most part.

Mind you it's the arthritic pain I dread the most, as nothing seems to touch the sides even on the cocktail I'm on, plus there's so much I can't take. Taking meds just to get up is no-one's idea of fun. 

I must admit, I thought the C4 programme could have done without starting with 3 examples of people obviously lying about the extent of their conditions, I felt as though the programme makers still felt people on benefits were just liars.


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

there's a lot who believe that. i was raised by such people. that i don't vote tory and look down on everyone else is a huge deal to them and something i'll never be forgiven for.

when i was a kid, we had a neighbour who was disabled. that he did a little light gardening on his few good days was regularly touted over the dinner table as evidence that he was a scrounging bastard. that he could barely walk between his front door and his car for the rest of the week was ignored.

i heard enough to know how these people think. they will never change their minds. any case presented as evidence they are wrong is cited by them as ' the exception that prooves the rule'. Only thing i really learnt was how to play their prejudices against them, which is why they think my 'benefit scrounger' fiancee is one of their exceptions.


----------



## culder (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> if you visit the site and don't click on an alert for a watched thread, i think it won't give you alerts for that thread again until you visit it again.


 
I'm not sure what you mean. Normally I come to the site, where I'm already logged in, and if there's been any new posts there'll be a red marker above Alerts, top right of the page. The last few days there hasn't been one - although there's one there now. Hmph.

EG - I don't think they thought we're liars, I think they needed to point out that some people are very clearly taking the piss, at the expense of the rest of us. Although I think they could've made the point that those people are messing it up for the rest of us. Ultimately, though, ATOS has a lot to answer for.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)




----------



## equationgirl (Jul 30, 2012)

There has been some problems with the alerts function recently, I believe there's a thread in the feedback forum about it.


----------



## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> there's a lot who believe that. i was raised by such people. that i don't vote tory and look down on everyone else is a huge deal to them and something i'll never be forgiven for.
> 
> when i was a kid, we had a neighbour who was disabled. that he did a little light gardening on his few good days was regularly touted over the dinner table as evidence that he was a scrounging bastard. that he could barely walk between his front door and his car for the rest of the week was ignored.
> 
> i heard enough to know how these people think. they will never change their minds. any case presented as evidence they are wrong is cited by them as ' the exception that prooves the rule'. Only thing i really learnt was how to play their prejudices against them, which is why they think my 'benefit scrounger' fiancee is one of their exceptions.


 

Yes, there will always be people like that , but overall when people are presented with the true facts, not slander, lies, misinformation, etc they usually come to a balanced judgement, the task is to ignore the sick misanthropes and win over the masses...


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> Yes, there will always be people like that , but overall when people are presented with the true facts, not slander, lies, misinformation, etc they usually come to a balanced judgement, the task is to ignore the sick misanthropes and win over the masses...


hope ylou are right.


----------



## culder (Jul 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> There has been some problems with the alerts function recently, I believe there's a thread in the feedback forum about it.


 
Thanks, that probably explains it.

Audio - nice link!


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 30, 2012)

Anyone know how many people on JSA  dropped down dead in the same period as  the EDM  states 1100 people died while on ESA in the work related activities group ... ?

it's all nice and emotive chucking  these figures about but how many of them died directly as a result of not being allowed to continue their IB funded life ? and how many of them died of  the same things as kill their peers in work or on JSA ?


----------



## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

do you have any direct expereince of stress causing worsening of medical or mental health problems?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> do you have any direct expereince of stress causing worsening of medical or mental health problems?


 
Why do you ask?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

Press Release from _Black Triangle_.


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## toggle (Jul 30, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Why do you ask?


 
because zippy seems completely ignorant of the reality affecting people who are tryin to claim benefits. there are a ot ov very, very sock people being told they are fit for work, and the stress of having to fight this injustice isn't making their health any better.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 30, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> <snip>it's all nice and emotive chucking these figures about but how many of them died directly as a result of not being allowed to continue their IB funded life ? and how many of them died of the same things as kill their peers in work or on JSA ?


Sweetie, I had hoped that you'd overcome your obvious cognitive impairment and empathic deficiency, but sadly not.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> because zippy seems completely ignorant of the reality affecting people who are tryin to claim benefits. there are a ot ov very, very sock people being told they are fit for work, and the stress of having to fight this injustice isn't making their health any better.


 
Ignore the muppet.


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## zippyRN (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> do you have any direct expereince of stress causing worsening of medical or mental health problems?


 
is that directed at me ?  there is a somatic component to many / most conditions  but it does not change the fact that there are very few people who could perform no work at all , at various times it has suited the government of  the day to sign people off onto IB  rather than keep them on the 'unemployed and claiming  JSA'  numbers .


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## zippyRN (Jul 30, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, I had hoped that you'd overcome your obvious cognitive impairment and empathic deficiency, but sadly not.


 
 so instead of saying you don't know , and won;t try to understand the basis of the question  you resort to an ad hominem ... how classy .


----------



## Greebo (Jul 30, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> so instead of saying you don't know , and won;t try to understand the basis of the question you resort to an ad hominem ... how classy .


Sweetie, your impairments are IMHO tragic, but no excuse for derailing this thread.  

If you really want your question answered, kindly start your own thread.  

*This thread is primarily for support.*


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> because zippy seems completely ignorant of the reality affecting people who are tryin to claim benefits. there are a ot ov very, very sock people being told they are fit for work, and the stress of having to fight this injustice isn't making their health any better.


 
The reality is that a lot of people with disabilities and long term health conditions can and do work  both myself and mrs Zippy have long term conditions , be definition the majority of my patients do as well , and then there are a variety of friends and acquaintances, outside of people I have met as patients and have now become friends with , who have long term conditions or disabilities  and an awful lot of them work  and work full time in both the private and public sectors ...  rather than putting a functional overlay on their difficulties and resorting to the sick role - whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role  and  decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> is that directed at me ? there is a somatic component to many / most conditions but it does not change the fact that there are very few people who could perform no work at all , at various times it has suited the government of the day to sign people off onto IB rather than keep them on the 'unemployed and claiming JSA' numbers .


Yes, in theory, that may be the case, but tell me who would employ someone who could to quote the Atos trainer 'have the use of one finger on one hand'. Yes they could click a mouse but they couldn't move it! More importantly, where are all these jobs going to come from and where in the UK will they be? 

With the government withdrawing funding for the Remploy factories because 'the money could be better used elsewhere', do you really think that providing employment for all those that can work is true?

I don't.


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## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> <snip>whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role and decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


"Sick role" Oh perleeeze!


----------



## Celt (Jul 31, 2012)

is there a seperate threadfor the filling in of the forms.  I have been trying to fill it in, and feel like there is white noise both in my head and where I'm looking.

Yeah Yeah Zippy, we like this fucking lifestyle


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> The reality is that a lot of people with disabilities and long term health conditions can and do work both myself and mrs Zippy have long term conditions , be definition the majority of my patients do as well , and then there are a variety of friends and acquaintances, outside of people I have met as patients and have now become friends with , who have long term conditions or disabilities and an awful lot of them work and work full time in both the private and public sectors ... rather than putting a functional overlay on their difficulties and resorting to the sick role - whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role and decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


This thread is for support.

Kindly take yourself elsewhere if you aren't prepared to offer support. You may think you're helping but you're not.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

Celt said:


> is there a seperate threadfor the filling in of the forms. I have been trying to fill it in, and feel like there is white noise both in my head and where I'm looking.
> 
> Yeah Yeah Zippy, we like this fucking lifestyle


You can start a private conversation if you like, and invite people to join it. That way your privacy is maintained. I'm happy to help wherever I can - especially with research and finding info.


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

toggle said:


> because zippy seems completely ignorant of the reality affecting people who are tryin to claim benefits. there are a ot ov very, very sock people being told they are fit for work, and the stress of having to fight this injustice isn't making their health any better.


Sadly, in some documented cases the stress has killed them.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sadly, in some documented cases the stress has killed them.


They have indeed been documented, and Frankie Jack has listed those deaths on a separate thread.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> Anyone know how many people on JSA dropped down dead in the same period as the EDM states 1100 people died while on ESA in the work related activities group ... ?
> 
> it's all nice and emotive chucking these figures about but how many of them died directly as a result of not being allowed to continue their IB funded life ? and how many of them died of the same things as kill their peers in work or on JSA ?


 
"IB funded life"?
Back to your old cuntery, I see. Blame the victims.
I understand you were/are a nurse. I feel sorry for your patients being subjected to such a judgemental fuckbag.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> is that directed at me ? there is a somatic component to many / most conditions...


 
Wow, thanks for that insight!



> ...but it does not change the fact that there are very few people who could perform no work at all...


 
Absolutely true.
I'm perfectly happy to work for any employer who'll put up with me only working when I'm able, missing deadlines and having my work-stream subjected to the whims of my illnesses and disabilities, as are tens, maybe hundreds of thousands of people in a similar situation.

Guess what? There aren't any employers who'll put up with that.



> at various times it has suited the government of the day to sign people off onto IB rather than keep them on the 'unemployed and claiming JSA' numbers .


 
IB has only existed for 16 years. The predecessor, Invalidity Benefit, was based on entirely different criteria, and people couldn't be "signed off" onto IB.
Not, of course, that they could be "signed off" onto IB, given the rather strict testing regime, but you're not one to let facts stop you vomiting out your ill-informed opinions, are you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> so instead of saying you don't know , and won;t try to understand the basis of the question you resort to an ad hominem ... how classy .


 
You're compassionless, and you regurgitate the medical line without taking any account of the social side until it suits you.

I'd say she's accurate and being rather polite.


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "IB funded life"?
> Back to your old cuntery, I see. Blame the victims.
> I understand you were/are a nurse. I feel sorry for your patients being subjected to such a judgemental fuckbag.


 
You seem to be confusing empathy and sympathy  there , and also forgetting that rehabilitation is the aim of everyone involved in the management of long term conditions  unless and until someone has a terminal diagnosis  when effective palliation becomes the priority.  

 It's odd isn't it that plenty of people even with serious illness or  quite profound disabilities  can mange to hold down jobs   with  the reasonable adaptation required by the disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act ... 

and all because I dared  question the morbidity and mortality figures of  a subgroup compared to others  and the population as a whole  -


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> The reality is that a lot of people with disabilities and long term health conditions can and do work both myself and mrs Zippy have long term conditions , be definition the majority of my patients do as well , and then there are a variety of friends and acquaintances, outside of people I have met as patients and have now become friends with , who have long term conditions or disabilities and an awful lot of them work and work full time in both the private and public sectors ... rather than putting a functional overlay on their difficulties and resorting to the sick role - whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role and decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


 
What the fuck are you slavering on about Talcott Parsons for you spunktrumpet? Been wanking over a Haralambos?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> You seem to be confusing empathy and sympathy there , and also forgetting that rehabilitation is the aim of everyone involved in the management of long term conditions unless and until someone has a terminal diagnosis when effective palliation becomes the priority.
> 
> It's odd isn't it that plenty of people even with serious illness or quite profound disabilities can mange to hold down jobs with the reasonable adaptation required by the disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act ...
> 
> and all because I dared question the morbidity and mortality figures of a subgroup compared to others and the population as a whole -


"Terminal diagnosis" is defined for ESA as "less than 6 months"   Sweetie, why don't you just fuck off back under your bridge?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> The reality is that a lot of people with disabilities and long term health conditions can and do work both myself and mrs Zippy have long term conditions , be definition the majority of my patients do as well , and then there are a variety of friends and acquaintances, outside of people I have met as patients and have now become friends with , who have long term conditions or disabilities and an awful lot of them work and work full time in both the private and public sectors ... rather than putting a functional overlay on their difficulties and resorting to the sick role - whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role and decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


 
The sick role is a 60 year-old functionalist concept that relies on what sociologists call "ideal types". That is, it's modelled on a very simplistic set of transactions that don't take account of individual difference. It's also a concept that gained currency quite widely outside the discipline of sociology (psychiatrists appear to be especially fond of it, as do politicians), but which gained very little traction in the discipline of sociology, except with other functionalists. Have a ponder through an academic library some time. Peruse a couple of the thousands of articles dissecting Parsons' "sick role", note the credentials of the critics, and then peruse a couple of the hundreds of articles written by Parsons' supporters, and check their credentials. It's an exercise that's always good for a laugh, when you have academic shills for insurance companies as a theory's main source of support.
That you think it's suitable for use to make a point about how people may be conning themselves and others is hilarious, as well as indicative of your prejudices. You've bought into a particular model of long-term sickness and/or disability, and you'll disinter anything that you (or, more likely, people slightly brighter than you) think will support that model.

Pitiful.


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> What the fuck are you slavering on about Talcott Parsons for you spunktrumpet? Been wanking over a Haralambos?


 
Empirical evidence suggests that whatever the faults in Talcott Parsons' theories; there are , will and remain to be people who 'enjoy' the sick role, find validation in the sick role and resist (often subconsciously) efforts to rehabilitate them ( e.g. the ME 'magic bullet' brigade).

rehabilitation is about making people push themselves ( sometimes quite liderally , pop-pickers ! *jewelry, jewelry , cigar wave *) it's Also about  ignoring sympathy  - sympathy has little place in a therapeutic relationship - especially one where rehab is the aim .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Celt said:


> is there a seperate threadfor the filling in of the forms. I have been trying to fill it in, and feel like there is white noise both in my head and where I'm looking.
> 
> Yeah Yeah Zippy, we like this fucking lifestyle


 
The approach Zippy is attributing is more insidious than that. The sick role posits that we subconsciously "play up" sickness in order to derive maximum benefit (in both senses) from it. Zippy has vommed up several buzz-terms such as "somatic", and "functional overlay" that shills for insurance companies toss around a lot.

Oh, and don't post too much, people, or he'll conclude that you're capable of work on that basis alone.


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

what a suprise  sensible discussion and debate  is subverted once again on U75 by a fascination for  the minutiae of what people write, any opportunity to  put ad hominems across  across about people who don't  follow the entitlement  culture . 

Am i being really thick here but  the morbidity and  mortality quoted in the Early day motion is   irrelevant without a comparator  to other sub groups within the peer group (e.g.  ESA recipients  who are not required to undertake work related activities, JSA claimants,  those in work )   which  suggests at least some kind of disproportionate morbidity and mortality among that group  vs the others  -  how many people in work  or on JSA  suddenly drop down dead of sudden cardiac arrest  or  have a stroke or other cerebro-vascular event  or even get bitten by a bug and die of scepticaemia or get   the flipping pig flu ... )


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> You seem to be confusing empathy and sympathy there , and also forgetting that rehabilitation is the aim of everyone involved in the management of long term conditions unless and until someone has a terminal diagnosis when effective palliation becomes the priority.
> 
> It's odd isn't it that plenty of people even with serious illness or quite profound disabilities can mange to hold down jobs with the reasonable adaptation required by the disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act ...
> 
> and all because I dared question the morbidity and mortality figures of a subgroup compared to others and the population as a whole -


Rehab will rebuild my crumbling spine, will it? You really spout rubbish sometimes.

If you wish to discuss all these issues, start a separate thread. This thread is to support those going through the Atos medical process, not for you to tell them to get back to work.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> You seem to be confusing empathy and sympathy there...


 
Not at all.



> ...and also forgetting that rehabilitation is the aim of everyone involved in the management of long term conditions unless and until someone has a terminal diagnosis when effective palliation becomes the priority.


 
Rehabilitation for many conditions is limited to "grin and bear it" measures. Pain and symptom management that barely take the edge off, you know this. Rehabilitation to *you* is a patient leaving your care. Rehabilitation for me and tens of thousands like me is a pat on the shoulder as I leave the hospital and a bag of new meds to try, some of which will add to my problems, rather than helping them.



> ...It's odd isn't it that plenty of people even with serious illness or quite profound disabilities can mange to hold down jobs with the reasonable adaptation required by the disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act ...


 
Plenty of people? Are you stupid?
At the height, employment for us hit around 30% of all people with disabilities, and even then only around 20% of *those* were moderately to severely disabled.
Oh, and "reasonable adaptations" is a fraught subject to many people like me. What I see as reasonable is very different from what either an employer will offer, or the law will enforce. Any adaptation that an employer can contest as inconvenient goes out of the window, so as you can imagine, the DDA hasn't been quite the source of disability liberation that you or the Daily Mail seem to think.



> and all because I dared question the morbidity and mortality figures of a subgroup compared to others and the population as a whole -


 
No, it wasn't what you asked, it was the way you did so.


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

so in other words if you aren't prepared to follow the U75 party line you aren't wanted  and discussion is verboten ... 

 the thread is called " Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support" and it;s in " 'UK politics, current affairs and news' " so questions and rebate about the politics of it all seem to be fair game ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Greebo said:


> "Terminal diagnosis" is defined for ESA as "less than 6 months"  Sweetie, why don't you just fuck off back under your bridge?


 
He's not a troll. He's more like Iain Duncan Smith, in that he believes he's right, and that everyone else just needs convincing of the path of righteousness.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> what a suprise sensible discussion and debate is subverted once again on U75 by a fascination for the minutiae of what people write, any opportunity to put ad hominems across across about people who don't follow the entitlement culture .
> 
> Am i being really thick here but the morbidity and mortality quoted in the Early day motion is irrelevant without a comparator to other sub groups within the peer group (e.g. ESA recipients who are not required to undertake work related activities, JSA claimants, those in work ) which suggests at least some kind of disproportionate morbidity and mortality among that group vs the others - how many people in work or on JSA suddenly drop down dead of sudden cardiac arrest or have a stroke or other cerebro-vascular event or even get bitten by a bug and die of scepticaemia or get the flipping pig flu ... )


If you want to see facts and figures, read this thread from the start as a lot of information has been posted.

Fuck's sake even the Mirror ran an investigation to find out how many people were dying from this shit!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> so in other words if you aren't prepared to follow the U75 party line you aren't wanted and discussion is verboten ...


 
I said to my wife, all of half an hour ago, that "he'll pull the 'party line bollocks and/or the 'monothought clique' bollocks any time now".



> the thread is called " Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support" and it;s in " 'UK politics, current affairs and news' " so questions and rebate about the politics of it all seem to be fair game ...


 
Questions, Answers and Support about Atos medicals, as you could easily have noted if you hadn't come here merely to preach the Gospel of Zippy.


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Not at all.
> Rehabilitation for many conditions is limited to "grin and bear it" measures. Pain and symptom management that barely take the edge off, you know this. Rehabilitation to *you* is a patient leaving your care. Rehabilitation for me and tens of thousands like me is a pat on the shoulder as I leave the hospital and a bag of new meds to try, some of which will add to my problems, rather than helping them.


 
oh really ...   so perhaps  the units   i work on ( both my base unit and another different rehab unit within the directorate) achieve nothing, ditto the rehab units within the medical directorate that provide generalised rehab to the local population rather than the regional / supra regional catchment area of the unit I work on ... 



> Plenty of people? Are you stupid?
> At the height, employment for us hit around 30% of all people with disabilities, and even then only around 20% of *those* were moderately to severely disabled.
> Oh, and "reasonable adaptations" is a fraught subject to many people like me. What I see as reasonable is very different from what either an employer will offer, or the law will enforce. Any adaptation that an employer can contest as inconvenient goes out of the window, so as you can imagine, the DDA hasn't been quite the source of disability liberation that you or the Daily Mail seem to think.


 
again  not a pattern i'm familiar with from my own experiences , those of my patients and those of other friends and acquaintances with long term conditions and disabilities ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> If you want to see facts and figures, read this thread from the start as a lot of information has been posted.
> 
> Fuck's sake even the Mirror ran an investigation to find out how many people were dying from this shit!


 
And did a comparison between figures for ESA and JSA.
But I doubt Zippy can be arsed to look that up, especially as it'd kick his "argument" (if we can dignify it with that name) in the arse.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> so in other words if you aren't prepared to follow the U75 party line you aren't wanted and discussion is verboten ...
> 
> the thread is called " Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support" and it;s in " 'UK politics, current affairs and news' " so questions and rebate about the politics of it all seem to be fair game ...


No, the clue's in the title: Atos Medicals - questions, answers and support. 

Questions and answers about the process, and support for those going through it. That's how it was set up. It's in this forum because it is a highly political isssue, and it's where the original thread was placed.

Once again, please leave if you're not prepared to support those going through the process.


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> The reality is that a lot of people with disabilities and long term health conditions can and do work both myself and mrs Zippy have long term conditions , be definition the majority of my patients do as well , and then there are a variety of friends and acquaintances, outside of people I have met as patients and have now become friends with , who have long term conditions or disabilities and an awful lot of them work and work full time in both the private and public sectors ... rather than putting a functional overlay on their difficulties and resorting to the sick role - whatever you think of Talcott Parsons - there are people who revel in the sick role and decide that fulfilling it shall be their purpose ...


 
what a sad fuck you are, quoting a now discredited US(CIA backed?) sociologist and opining on the condition of millions you have never met, sign the hippocratic oath did you?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> oh really ... so perhaps the units i work on ( both my base unit and another different rehab unit within the directorate) achieve nothing, ditto the rehab units within the medical directorate that provide generalised rehab to the local population rather than the regional / supra regional catchment area of the unit I work on ...


 
Did I say you achieve nothing? No, I didn't, but feel free to berate yourself for being useless if it makes you feel better!
I said (and I'll repeat myself, because your comprehension ability seems poor) "rehabilitation for many conditions is limited to 'grin and bear it' measures".

Argue with the points I make, not the points you'd like me to have made, so that your smug rejoinders might actually have some value.

Arse.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> what a sad fuck you are, quoting a now discredited US(CIA backed?) sociologist and opining on the condition of millions you have never met, sign the hippocratic oath did you?


 
CIA-backed, true. Discredited? Some of his work, definitely, other stuff, no. Friend of Chicago School economists? Definitely.


----------



## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> Empirical evidence suggests that whatever the faults in Talcott Parsons' theories; there are , will and remain to be people who 'enjoy' the sick role, find validation in the sick role and resist (often subconsciously) efforts to rehabilitate them ( e.g. the ME 'magic bullet' brigade).
> 
> rehabilitation is about making people push themselves ( sometimes quite liderally , pop-pickers ! *jewelry, jewelry , cigar wave *) it's Also about ignoring sympathy - sympathy has little place in a therapeutic relationship - especially one where rehab is the aim .


 
God, you really are a nasty piece of work, I very rarely resort to personal abuse, but you are a fucking misanthrope who has no business posting on these threads which are for support for people going through what two major docs tonight termed horrendous experiences...

do one...


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## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> <snip>, sign the hippocratic oath did you?


 
and what's that meant to mean exactly  ... oh woop some translations include the word 'sympathy' ... 

and again with the ad hominems , especially when all along i've said   that  there are criticisms and disputes over Talcott Parsons' work ...


----------



## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

It would be interesting to know how many if any of the posters so quick with the ad hominems  actually have any none -patient  experience of healthcare ...


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> and what's that meant to mean exactly ... oh woop some translations include the word 'sympathy' ...
> 
> and again with the ad hominems , especially when all along i've said that there are criticisms and disputes over Talcott Parsons' work ...


 
But what you haven't done is explain why you think it's acceptable to benefit us with your wisdom on a thread that's solely for the purpose of offering advice and support to those being subjected to ATOS medicals.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

Zippy, it may be worth noting that the 'sick role' model is not intended to be used to model chronic illness:

Model fits acute illness (measles, appendicitis, relatively short term conditions).
Does not fit Chronic/ long-term/permanent illness as easily, getting well not an expectation with chronic conditions such as blindness, diabetes.
In chronic illness acting the sick role is less appropriate and less functional for both individual and social system.
Chronically ill patients are often encouraged to be independent.
From my limited reading of this subject, his views are definitely outdated anyway in the context of today's society, so I don't even know why you're bringing up something that doesn't fit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

And also is ad hominems your phrase of the day or something, Zippy?


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## editor (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> It would be interesting to know how many if any of the posters so quick with the ad hominems actually have any none -patient experience of healthcare ...


Please note that 'robust debate' is allowed on urban75 and if you keep on reporting every single post I may have to start the 'ad hominems' myself. Thank you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can start a private conversation if you like, and invite people to join it. That way your privacy is maintained. I'm happy to help wherever I can - especially with research and finding info.


 
I can confirm that equationgirl and others (whose names I won't mention without permission) have been very generous with their time and advice when I filled mine in


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## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> and what's that meant to mean exactly ... oh woop some translations include the word 'sympathy' ...<snip>


*Primum non nocere - *first, do no harm. You should know that, sweetie ie. zippy. Discard that and any therapeutic relationship crumbles because there can be no trust without it.

If you call somebody in for a medical assessment (in itself stressful and arduous) not once every few years, but (as is currently the case) twice or more often per year, you cannot avoid inflicting harm. The assessments inflict harm by costing money to get to - making it more difficult to afford things needed for managing a condition which aren't available on the NHS (eg swimming in a warm pool, an anti-inflammatory diet, adequate heating, appropriate clothing, heat pads etc). That's before you take into account the physical consequences of attending the assessment - additional pain, fatigue and stress, as well as less time for any rehabilitation or condition management.

Moreover, I'm sure that in your capacity as a nurse (is your real name Ratchet, sweetie?), you are fully cognisant that stress and distress exacerbate pain, which in turn raises blood pressure and blood cortisol levels, not to mention depressing the functioning of the immune system, and slowing the time taken for even very minor injuries to heal. Surely you understand that when officials incessantly query your truthfulness about your illness and/or impairments it cannot avoid inflicting harm.

I would also question what on earth you could believe young adults (ie those under 30) ever stood to gain from becoming longtem sick and thereby getting themselves medically retired, when it put an end to the future life they had taken for granted up until then: Trivia such as keeping the job they loved, keeping up with the sports or other activities they enjoyed, a good enough income, the prospect of better accommodation, having children and/or pets.

I concede that that's emotive, sweetie, and yes I'm angry, and right now I have every fucking right to be both, zippy, you crassly insensitive dolt!


----------



## yardbird (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> It would be interesting to know how many if any of the posters so quick with the ad hominems actually have any none -patient experience of healthcare ...


You have really misunderstood the title of this thread, fair enough.
However, now that you know that it's for things to do with ATOS assessments, support and advice, I'm sure that you realise that you've dragged your derail for long enough.
Would you please desist.
Thanks


----------



## yardbird (Jul 31, 2012)

Last night's Panorama was okayish-
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lldrc/Panorama_Disabled_or_Faking_It/
Well worth watching


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## ericjarvis (Jul 31, 2012)

Currently my back problems aren't severe enough to be a problem, but some years ago I had a trapped nerve in my lower back. That was precisely the sort of thing that would leave me completely screwed under the current system. There was no pain. The only noticeable symptom was some numbness in my right foot. And for 6 months I had weekly sessions of traction and had to avoid ANY sudden movement because of the risk of snapping the nerve and permanently losing the use of my right leg. Under current rules that would count as fit to work.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> Empirical evidence suggests...


 
Fine. Post links to this "empirical evidence", please.



> that whatever the faults in Talcott Parsons' theories; there are , will and remain to be people who 'enjoy' the sick role, find validation in the sick role and resist (often subconsciously) efforts to rehabilitate them ( e.g. the ME 'magic bullet' brigade).


 
At least you've confirmed where you draw your ideas from, now. You're regurgitating Aylward and his merry band of shills. Well done.



> rehabilitation is about making people push themselves ( sometimes quite liderally , pop-pickers ! *jewelry, jewelry , cigar wave *) it's Also about ignoring sympathy - sympathy has little place in a therapeutic relationship - especially one where rehab is the aim .


 
I went through physical rehab in a military hospital. There was no absence of sympathy there.
Perhaps your relationship to your work is more, to be blunt, instrumental than more compassionate nurses?


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## WouldBe (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thanks VP; seems that my upcoming WCA will coincide with the beginning of my chemotherapy. Vomiting and double incontinence it is then.


Just make sure you vomit over the ATOSser. They might get the point then.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Zippy, it may be worth noting that the 'sick role' model is not intended to be used to model chronic illness:
> 
> Model fits acute illness (measles, appendicitis, relatively short term conditions).
> Does not fit Chronic/ long-term/permanent illness as easily, getting well not an expectation with chronic conditions such as blindness, diabetes.
> ...


 
If you browse the stuff that has come out of Aylward's "research team" at Cardiff (sponsored by Unum Provident!), you'll find the (perhaps once or twice-removed) source of Zippy's philosophy. Professor Sir Mansel Aylward applies the sick role to chronic illness, and has the occasional rant about people with ME who refuse to accept a diagnosis of somatoform disorder (some of us remember the not-too-long-ago rants of similar luminaries against people with MS who refused to accept varied diagnoses ascribing their physical symptoms to mental disorders).

Zippy is (wittingly or unwittingly) acting as a shill for a set of illness beliefs that are propagated by people who knowingly act as shills for the insurance industry and big pharma.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

editor said:


> Please note that 'robust debate' is allowed on urban75 and if you keep on reporting every single post I may have to start the 'ad hominems' myself. Thank you.


 
He's reported every single post? That's rich!


----------



## yardbird (Jul 31, 2012)

A morning of telly watching.
Dispatches.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/dispatches/4od#3388055


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## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

I wonder if Zippy would apply for a HCP post with ATOS?


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## Mungy (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> Empirical evidence suggests that whatever the faults in Talcott Parsons' theories; there are , will and remain to be people who 'enjoy' the sick role, find validation in the sick role and resist (often subconsciously) efforts to rehabilitate them ( e.g. the ME 'magic bullet' brigade).


 
What is the  the ME 'magic bullet' brigade?


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> It's odd isn't it that plenty of people even with serious illness or quite profound disabilities can mange to hold down jobs with the reasonable adaptation required by the disability discrimination provisions of the Equality Act ...


 
Oh do fuck off please. Learn to separate the label from the person. Because a person with diabetes can work with no additional help, and a person who has lost a leg through diabetes can work with assistance, it does not mean that somebody who needs daily dialysis due to kidney failure caused by diabetes is therefore fit to work.


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## WouldBe (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> You seem to be confusing empathy and sympathy there , and also forgetting that rehabilitation is the aim of everyone involved in the management of long term conditions


 Yes of course it is. That's why I'm not getting any treatment at all and the medical "professionals" around here can't even be bothered to find out what's wrong.

Then there's pricks like you and the DWP that expect me to be able to go out and get a job.


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## ericjarvis (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> It would be interesting to know how many if any of the posters so quick with the ad hominems actually have any none -patient experience of healthcare ...


 
Yes. Former Vice Chair of a Community Health Council back when I was healthy.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> I wonder if Zippy would apply for a HCP post with ATOS?


Perhaps already is..... Perfect mindset for the job.


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## treelover (Jul 31, 2012)

The notion that there is a bio-medical medical intervention just around the corner, (such as a anti-viral) and that as a consequence PWME are not amenable to psychiatric/psychosomatic interventions, such as CBT, graded exercise, etc that the 'Wesseley School' advocate and that they slip into the 'comfortable' role of a sick person claiming benefits, etc, Zippy really is out of order, don't think our resident right wingers would be that callous..





Mungy said:


> What is the the ME 'magic bullet' brigade?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Last night's Panorama was okayish-
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lldrc/Panorama_Disabled_or_Faking_It/
> Well worth watching


 
Yeah, wasn't what I was expecting, considering their complete lack of support anywhere


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> I wonder if Zippy would apply for a HCP post with ATOS?


 
Maybe Zippy already is?


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## Mungy (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> The notion that there is a bio-medical medical intervention just around the corner, (such as a anti-viral) and that as a consequence PWME are not amenable to psychiatric/psychosomatic interventions, such as CBT, graded exercise, etc that the 'Wesseley School' advocate and that they slip into the 'comfortable role of a sick person claiming benefits, etc, Zippy really is out of order, don't think our resident right wingers would be that callous..


 I want to rant, but I won't


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## Mungy (Jul 31, 2012)

Having seen the effects of nursing staff that just don't know how to deal with a person with severe ME and the effects that the "wesseley school" had on my wife's health and now that she is bedbound and less than 25% functional, they don't want anything to do with her because she, like many others, prove their model is seriously flawed. Bunch of, to use a phrase I have learned from this thread, spunktrumpets, I think it was


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## audiotech (Jul 31, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Last night's Panorama was okayish-
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01lldrc/Panorama_Disabled_or_Faking_It/
> Well worth watching


 
Grayling quoting Cameron's "tough love" approach to disability and work is telling. Let's remind ourselves that the CEO of Mind, the mental health charity, who stepped down from the scrutiny panel called the system "Inhumane" and as an Atos trainer on the Dispatches programme made clear, 'the process is designed to take people off benefits'. I have the one finger.







http://crippencartoons.wordpress.com/2012/07/31/lies-lies-and-more-lies-2/


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

From _Benefits and Work _



> Two disabled people have won the first stage of their legal bid to force the government to improve the much-criticised “​fitness for work”​ test.
> 
> The high court this week granted permission for them to bring a claim for judicial review against Iain Duncan Smith, the Conservative work and pensions secretary.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

and more from _Benefits and Work _re recording assessments



> Despite this answer, a DWP spokeswoman has now confirmed to Disability News Service that “​although we continue to make reasonable endeavours to accommodate requests for recording assessments, we believe it would be unreasonable to delay the assessment indefinitely for this purpose”​.
> 
> She said only a “​very few people”​ would not be able to have their WCA recorded, and added: “​Atos will make every effort to get your assessment recorded but for a very few people that situation cannot go on indefinitely.
> 
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> The notion that there is a bio-medical medical intervention just around the corner, (such as a anti-viral) and that as a consequence PWME are not amenable to psychiatric/psychosomatic interventions, such as CBT, graded exercise, etc that the 'Wesseley School' advocate and that they slip into the 'comfortable' role of a sick person claiming benefits, etc, Zippy really is out of order, don't think our resident right wingers would be that callous..


 
The interventions that even the literature published by Wessely and Co, using the most broad definitions of the syndrome they claim to be treating, don't reflect much more than marginal utility?
TBF, you have to be either morally or intellectually-bankrupt to take that research, or any of the multitude of (non-Cochrane!) reviews it spawns, seriously. Flaws to methodology, epistemological inconstancy and poor experimental design are pretty gross faults for any researcher. To repeat the same offences again and again is villainous and/or lazy.

BTW, apparently Wessely has been complaining of being victimised and demonised, because horrid people on the internet point out flaws in his work. Diddums.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2012)

Mungy said:


> I want to rant, but I won't


 
Why not? Does you good to vent!


----------



## audiotech (Jul 31, 2012)

*



			Chris Grayling's email to Ministry of Justice – full document
		
Click to expand...

*


> A response to a freedom of information request reveals an email from the employment minister's office to civil servants at the Ministry of Justice, asking for changes to a video aimed at helping people whose disability benefit has been taken...to appeal


http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/interactive/2012/jul/31/chris-grayling-email-justice-document


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## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and more from _Benefits and Work _re recording assessments


No surprise there, then.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's reported every single post? That's rich!


I know, cheeky sod!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2012)

But what *exactly *has he reported people for?


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## audiotech (Jul 31, 2012)

£100,000 in expenses - whose the real "scrounger" here?

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=29256


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Oh do fuck off please. Learn to separate the label from the person. Because a person with diabetes can work with no additional help, and a person who has lost a leg through diabetes can work with assistance, it does not mean that somebody who needs daily dialysis due to kidney failure caused by diabetes is therefore fit to work.


Dialysis being an excellent case in point, as it's indefinite until an organ becomes available, and most sessions are 3-4 hours 3 times a week, assuming of course that you can get a machine at your appointment time, which is not always possible. Dialysis is a survival procedure, due to restricted diet fatigue is often reported as well as longer term problems such as reduced bone density, shunt access problems, risk of infection to name but a few. To think that anyone is fit for work whilst on dialysis is ridiculous. Undoubtably some people are, but many aren't.

I have kidney problems, luckily I don't need dialysis (touch wood) but I've seen the toll it takes on people and it's a barbaric treatment.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But what *exactly *has he reported people for?


Goodness knows - telling him to do one from the thread I suspect.


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## audiotech (Jul 31, 2012)

Tom Greatrex MP, has secured a Westminster Hall debate on 4th September on Atos and the WCA.​


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Yes. Former Vice Chair of a Community Health Council back when I was healthy.


I've done research into both dialysis treatment improvements (3 years) and chronic wound healing models (4 years), 7 years in total.


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Why not? Does you good to vent!


Better out than in, I say - rant away Mungy!


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## culder (Jul 31, 2012)

The Poster We Shall Not Name appears to have buggered off, thank heavens.

Just in case he/she/it is lurking - thanks for adding to my feeling of worthlessness, fuckwit.


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

culder said:


> The Poster We Shall Not Name appears to have buggered off, thank heavens.
> 
> Just in case he/she/it is lurking - thanks for adding to my feeling of worthlessness, fuckwit.


No! You are *not* worthless - your ability to work (or not) does not define you as a person. Don't let anyone, especially that poster, tell you otherwise.


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## Mephitic (Jul 31, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> No! You are *not* worthless - your ability to work (or not) does not define you as a person. Don't let anyone, especially that poster, tell you otherwise.


 
Exactly, well said.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

Seconded.


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## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Mephitic said:


> Exactly, well said.


We're human beings, not *human doings.   *


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

Human doings - Sounds like a euphamism for number twos.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Anyone in Newcastle area wanna help DPACers shout at Iain Dumbcunt Spiv



> *HELP NEEDED FOR A FANTASTIC CHANCE TO LET IAN DUNCAN SMITH KNOW HOW YOU FEEL!!*
> 
> *MARIA MILLERS BOSS = IAN DUNCAN SMITH - WILL BE IN BENTON - NEWCASTLE UPON TYNE TOMORROW! on Wednesday 1 August 2012 as follows:*
> 
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Jul 31, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Human doings - Sounds like a euphamism for number twos.


Exactly!


----------



## Mephitic (Jul 31, 2012)




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## laptop (Jul 31, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> epistemological inconstancy


 
Harsh


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## zippyRN (Jul 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> I wonder if Zippy would apply for a HCP post with ATOS?


 
why  do you wonder that ?  to be honest the package offered by ATOS is  no better than the NHS   and seems to be rather more confrontational especially if people  who are attending for assessment have be hyped up by some of the stuff that is being  said  by those with political motivations against this ( despite the fact it was NuLabour initiative)


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2012)

Zippy, baby, you've yet to offer a satisfactory explaination as to why you feel moved to persistently try to derail a thread that's there solely to offer advice and/or support to those undergoing ATOS medicals.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> why do you wonder that ? to be honest the package offered by ATOS is no better than the NHS and seems to be rather more confrontational especially if people who are attending for assessment have be hyped up by some of the stuff that is being said by those with political motivations against this ( despite the fact it was NuLabour initiative)


 
Go fuck yourself you shiteweasel, report that.


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## Frankie Jack (Jul 31, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Go fuck yourself you shiteweasel, report that.


Ditto from me too.


----------



## Mephitic (Jul 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ditto from me too.


 
And me.


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

Mephitic said:


> And me.


And me


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## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2012)

Zippy - for your constant attempts to derail this thread I hereby award you the Atos Spunktrumpet trophy. 

Now please stop posting on this thread, if you want a debate about the WCA suitability or to spout the party line, go somewhere else.

Go ahead and report me


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

Best use of 'spunktrumpet' yet eq


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## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> why do you wonder that ? to be honest the package offered by ATOS is no better than the NHS and seems to be rather more confrontational especially if people who are attending for assessment have be hyped up by some of the stuff that is being said by those with political motivations against this ( despite the fact it was NuLabour initiative)


Sweetie, please take the fucking hint and go away.  Or start your own thread where you can play with your friends.  This isn't the right thread.


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## equationgirl (Aug 1, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Best use of 'spunktrumpet' yet eq


Thanks Frankie, it seemed so fitting - I intend to use spunktrumpet in as many posts as possible


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Thanks Frankie, it seemed so fitting - I intend to use spunktrumpet in as many posts as possible


Question: Could spunktrumpet become the new sweetie?


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 1, 2012)

What zippy appears to have forgotten, is that empathy involves actually listening and understanding people from their own pov. It's a dynamic process that happens between 2 people. Yes, its not about colluding with someone and should be challenging, but it is at heart about understanding what it is like to be that person. It's also supposed to work alongside unconditional positive regard and genuineness/congruence.


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/careers/3373285/atos-it-staff-vote-strike-over-low-pay/
Atos IT staff vote to strike over low pay
London 2012 Olympic Games sponsor's lowest paid staff don't earn minimum wage, union claims
The majority of more than 1,600 workers at Atos IT Services and Atos Healthcare, who are members of the Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS), have voted to go on strike over pay.
PCS balloted its members earlier this month after 89 percent of IT workers and 95 percent of healthcare staff at the major London 2012 Olympic Games sponsor voted to reject below-inflation pay offers. Most of the members work in the IT services division.​


----------



## audiotech (Aug 1, 2012)

..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Or start your own thread where you can play with your friends.


 
Could be a very short thread


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.computerworlduk.com/news/careers/3373285/atos-it-staff-vote-strike-over-low-pay/
> Atos IT staff vote to strike over low pay​London 2012 Olympic Games sponsor's lowest paid staff don't earn minimum wage, union claims​The majority of more than 1,600 workers at Atos IT Services and Atos Healthcare, who are members of the Public and Commercial Services Union (PCS), have voted to go on strike over pay.​PCS balloted its members earlier this month after 89 percent of IT workers and 95 percent of healthcare staff at the major London 2012 Olympic Games sponsor voted to reject below-inflation pay offers. Most of the members work in the IT services division.​


 
I'd like to see the disabled walk past their picket lines and stone them but they'd probably assume if you're able to throw a stone, you're able to work


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Could be a very short thread


It'd be a wasp bottle of a thread - let zippy have his fun elsewhere with his friends (if he has any) so that this thread can get back to business.     If he hasn't begun that thread by tonight, I will.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> But what *exactly *has he reported people for?


 
Speaking their minds and not bowing down before his professional qualifications.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

culder said:


> The Poster We Shall Not Name appears to have buggered off, thank heavens.
> 
> Just in case he/she/it is lurking - thanks for adding to my feeling of worthlessness, fuckwit.


 
Worthless is as worthless does.
*You* happen to have challenged the system and triumphed. Hardly the act of someone who is worthless, I'd say. 

Zippy, on the other hand...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Human doings - Sounds like a euphamism for number twos.


 
Or Zippys, as I've now decided to call them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

laptop said:


> Harsh


 
But accurate.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> why do you wonder that ? to be honest the package offered by ATOS is no better than the NHS and seems to be rather more confrontational especially if people who are attending for assessment have be hyped up by some of the stuff that is being said by those with political motivations against this ( despite the fact it was NuLabour initiative)


 
"Have to be"? "political motivations"?
Interesting set of constructions you're attempting to build. Let's deal with them one at a time:
1) No-one "has to be" hyped up, although they often are purely by the _reportage_ around the WCA. Any interview, examination etc that is premised on establishing facts about you in order to cross-check with facts already submitted (by yourself and by the health professionals providing you with treatment) is going to be confrontational anyway. If you want people to be "Quiet Little Crips", then effectively saying that they're frauds and liars until you've confirmed their "disabled" status *IS* confrontational. Don't blame clients for reacting, it makes you look like a shill.
2) Find me anyone on this thread who doesn't acknowledge the sheer cuntery of nu Labour in power, or that they set this ball rolling. Your "point" is a straw man. As for *personal* political motivations, *hell yes*, I'm politically-motivated! I'm motivated to try to ensure that people, those I know *and* those I don't, do not get steam-rollered by the WCA like many of us did by the equally violent and poorly-conceived Benefits Integrity Project.

You, you're coming across as one of those idiots who sees everything in terms of "lefties" and "hippies", because you don't have the imagination to think of anything that is beyond your personal prejudices.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Question: Could spunktrumpet become the new sweetie?


 
Spunktrumpet is WAY too positive a term.
For a start it implies the ability to actually produce and project spunk.


----------



## Blagsta (Aug 1, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> why do you wonder that ? to be honest the package offered by ATOS is no better than the NHS and seems to be rather more confrontational especially if people who are attending for assessment have be hyped up by some of the stuff that is being said by those with political motivations against this ( despite the fact it was NuLabour initiative)


 
ATOS offer way more money than the NHS, going by the job ads I see in the back of the RCN Bulletin.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or Zippys, as I've now decided to call them.


Come off it - at least faecal matter can be hot composted (or otherwise sterilised) and turned into fertiliser, or you can extract various chemicals from it. I'm not convinced that he's even that useful.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> ATOS offer way more money than the NHS, going by the job ads I see in the back of the RCN Bulletin.


How much money is your self respect worth?


----------



## Boycey (Aug 1, 2012)

don't have the time or inclination to read 44 pages but is there any advice on here for someone (who really isn't me) about to be atos-ed?


----------



## yardbird (Aug 1, 2012)

The thread is essential reading with loads of advice/warnings etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 1, 2012)

Boycey said:


> don't have the time or inclination to read 44 pages but is there any advice on here for someone (who really isn't me) about to be atos-ed?


 
Yes (I'm assuming that you mean that they've filled in and submitted their ESA form, and that "being Atos-ed refers to the Work Capability Assessment interview). Person who isn't Boycey:

Don't go there with a "stiff upper lip" attitude;

Be aware that however complex the answers you give the "healthcare professional" are, they'll be reduced _ad aburdam_ to a tickbox on their computer, so spending 200 words on the minutiae of the muscle spasms in your leg will be reduced to "muscle pain in leg" etc;

*If* there's still some time to go before the "interview", contact them and insist that you want your interview to be recorded;

Bear in mind that although the logical actions for attending something like this would include loading up on painkillers etc, that they do tend to rely on visual impressions in these assessments, so an interviewee who goes in looking not-too-bothered by their condition will be seen as someone who's not too ill, despite these people supposedly being cognisant of "hidden disability" etc.

I'm sure that others will have much to add.


----------



## treelover (Aug 1, 2012)

Daily Mirror has picked up on the story of the 32 deaths a week even as a consequence of the ESA medical, though the increasingly right wing on benefits Matthew Wright(The Wright Stuff) is not convinced they are related


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Boycey said:


> don't have the time or inclination to read 44 pages but is there any advice on here for someone (who really isn't me) about to be atos-ed?


Yes, plenty. Wade through it, it's well worth it.

Don't be brave. Don't be stoical.  Don't make more of an effort with your hygiene, grooming or clothing that you would on a bad day at home (one woman claiming IB partly because of clinical depression scored no points because she wore a scrunchy with a fake flower on it).  Have a witness with you. Keep copies of everything. Trust nobody from the DWP or ATOS further than you can throw them, even if they seem nice. Don't let the bastards grind you down.


----------



## culder (Aug 1, 2012)

Thanks to all those who've pointed out that I'm not worthless. I do know that, in a general sort of way, but the poster I refuse to name (because he doesn't deserve that much attention), and will henceforth refer to as Voldemort, seems to have no interest in the mental or physical wellbeing of people who are affected by all this.

Scary that someone like that can be a nurse.

Boycey - in addition to what's already been said, please bear in mind that the assessment is NOT about what you can't do - not any more. All they care about is what you CAN do. If I have to go through it again, I might well feel it necessary to point out that I CAN smash their sodding computer monitor with a hammer, and ask them who is going to employ me if I put that on my CV.


----------



## culder (Aug 1, 2012)

Just seen this elsewhere -

http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/895


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

culder said:


> Just seen this elsewhere -
> 
> http://socialwelfareunion.org/archives/895


Thanks for the link.  Depressing stuff, but it needs to be known.


----------



## culder (Aug 1, 2012)

I read this book some years ago - Erewhon, by Samuel Butler, first published in 1872 -

http://www.marxists.org/reference/archive/butler-samuel/1872/erewhon/index.htm

“If a man falls into ill health, or catches any disorder, or fails bodily in any way before he is seventy years old, he is tried before a jury of his countrymen, and if convicted is held up to public scorn and sentenced more or less severely as the case may be. ... But if a man forges a cheque, or sets his house on fire, or robs with violence from the person, or does any other such things as are criminal in our own country, he is either taken to a hospital and most carefully tended at the public expense, or if he is in good circumstances, he lets it be known to all his friends that he is suffering from a severe fit of immorality, just as we do when we are ill, and they come and visit him with great solicitude.”

Sound familiar?


----------



## Quartz (Aug 1, 2012)

Boycey said:


> don't have the time or inclination to read 44 pages but is there any advice on here for someone (who really isn't me) about to be atos-ed?


 
Read the thread. 

But in short:

1. Don't trust the arseholes.
2. Ensure your visit is recorded.
3. Don't trust the arseholes.
4. Take a friend who will take notes. It helps if your friend is in the legal or medical profession and you mention it to the ATOS person in passing.
5. Don't trust the arseholes.
6. Make copies of everything. They will lose it.
7. Expect to be denied straight off, despite everything.
8. Don't trust the arseholes.
9. Don't be afraid to appeal.
10. Go in person to the appeal.

Did I mention not trusting the arseholes?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Could be a very short thread


Started anyway.
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...rses-should-be-leftwing.297144/#post-11399086


----------



## Boycey (Aug 1, 2012)

really appreciate the advice people.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 1, 2012)

Boycey said:


> really appreciate the advice people.


 
The most important advice to heed in Quartz's post is Nos. 1, 3, 5 and 8


----------



## Greebo (Aug 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The most important advice to head in Quartz's post is Nos. 1, 3, 5 and 8


Word.


----------



## zippyRN (Aug 1, 2012)

Blagsta said:


> ATOS offer way more money than the NHS, going by the job ads I see in the back of the RCN Bulletin.


 
32 to 34k - already earn that as a Band 5  through shift allowances , also ATOS isn't one of the organisations where people can stay in the NHS pensions scheme


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> 32 to 34k - already earn that as a Band 5 through shift allowances , also ATOS isn't one of the organisations where people can stay in the NHS pensions scheme


No. I believe they get other insurance, benefits AND private healthcare.


----------



## Mephitic (Aug 1, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> 32 to 34k - already earn that as a Band 5 through shift allowances , also ATOS isn't one of the organisations where people can stay in the NHS pensions scheme


 
34k seems a tad low considering the necessity that they swallow Beelzebubs spunk on a daily basis.

edit: wonders if having private medical helps remove the taste.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 1, 2012)

Sonia Poultons Google Doc is havig difficulties and may have been hacked as parts of the letter went missing. 
There are other people/ blogs gathering signatures too but I'll link to this one and hope those of you that signed can do so again HERE. 

Did anyone grab a copy/snapshot of the googleDoc?

I was going to but thought it would breach some law or other. Wish I had now.. 

Here is her letter



> Dear Mr. Miliband,
> 
> I am a UK-based journalist and broadcaster. Here is a link to my website. www.soniapoulton.co.uk.
> 
> ...


----------



## zippyRN (Aug 1, 2012)

Mephitic said:


> 34k seems a tad low considering the necessity that they swallow Beelzebubs spunk on a daily basis.
> 
> edit: wonders if having private medical helps remove the taste.


 

Private medical insurance is vastly overrated especially when you look at the fine print ofwhat it doesn't cover ... ( TTO meds - kerching, dressings - kerching, walking aids - kerching ) then there are all the things that they can't / won't / don't do ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

Enough now Zippy. Take it to an 'Atos are fantastic and the sick and disabled are cunts' thread... or something.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

zippyRN said:


> Private medical insurance is vastly overrated especially when you look at the fine print ofwhat it doesn't cover ... ( TTO meds - kerching, dressings - kerching, walking aids - kerching ) then there are all the things that they can't / won't / don't do ...


Zippy - you've got your thread (which I started for you yesterday), run along and play.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 2, 2012)

New Discriptors? Telling it like it is?




> As a former employee of the department,... I would not trust the DWP either, no matter what fluff & puff they feed you - you'll find very few staff on the front line, if any that trust this or them either. This is nothing but a political move, as Cameron is losing favour so fast, he's bricking it about losing the next election. As others have said,the DWP may write the descriptors, but ATOS do the assessments, and often make up the answers as they go along & the DWP go along with what ATOS have said & check very few decisions. Whilst I agree that these new descriptors are slightly better, I still feel that the most serious illnesses that were previously regarded as making someone unfit for work using common sense & the depts own highly skilled medical resources for the last 60 years, but have somehow been dissolved by the non medically educated government in the last 2 years, should be saved from this ridiculous process. New descriptors or not, I regret that the injustice of dragging people in over & over again, despite previously winning appeal after appeal will continue, some a few short months previously.I wish I could be all happy clappy about it, but I know the department & the lies the public are told. Whilst I am glad that some change has been made, if targets are involved (which they are in a big way, especially where a tory government are concerned, trust me), nothing much will change.


Source: Comments section:
http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/breaking-news-possible-new-wca.html?spref=fb


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

Seems to me more and more Kaliya and Sue are being used to get information out. Even with their own spins it doesn't make it any more palatable for me. With both of them being Labour supporters I can actually feel my lip turning up these days.


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

audiotech said:


> New Discriptors? Telling it like it is?
> 
> 
> Source: Comments section:
> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/breaking-news-possible-new-wca.html?spref=fb


 
This would mean more people getting in the support group which overall with premiums inc can be a considerable amount of money, that is not part of any Party's plans...


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

just read some of the comments, lots of professionals endorsing it in a very instrumental way, they were the ones who were largely silent when the reforms were going though...

btw, masterstroke this by the DWP, the momentum against the reforms was really snowballing, now this will divide the opposition while nothing will really change...


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/02/atos-disability-benefit-tests

ATOS been awarded the PIP medical, ffs...


----------



## Greebo (Aug 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/02/atos-disability-benefit-tests
> 
> ATOS been awarded the PIP medical, ffs...


That's it then.  I give up.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

It's been a guarentee they would get the contract considering they already have the infrastructure there and any other 'business' would have to meet the cost of new set up. Plus I've a feeling Atos may have dampered any other businesses using their software.

At least we know who we are up against. Capita, though, are a whole new kettle of fish.

Oh and Capita are paid to store DWP files. If they are in cahoots with Atos and are in any way given leeway to access those files... Between the two of them and their contracts with various government departments I think we're fucked.


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

I also think the LP was about to break the 'consensus' on the tests, they are simply getting to much mail, pressure, etc to ignore, this was/is a tactical move by the Tories

btw, didn't know Sue was a LP member, explains this 'pragmatism' though...


----------



## treelover (Aug 2, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> It's been a guarentee they would get the contract considering they already have the infrastructure there and any other 'business' would have to meet the cost of new set up. Plus I've a feeling Atos may have dampered any other businesses using their software.
> 
> At least we know who we are up against. Capita, though, are a whole new kettle of fish.
> 
> Oh and Capita are paid to store DWP files. If they are in cahoots with Atos and are in any way given leeway to access those files... Between the two of them and their contracts with various government departments I think we're fucked.


 
yes, 'full spectrum surveillance'


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> I also think the LP was about to break the 'consensus' on the tests, they are simply getting to much mail, pressure, etc to ignore, this was/is a tactical move by the Tories
> 
> btw, didn't know Sue was a LP member, explains this 'pragmatism' though...


Oh it's on her twitter profile and she hoots wildly with delight on Twitter if any of the Labour party come out with anything that remotely attacks the WCA... Even Liam Byrne..


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2012)

audiotech said:


> New Discriptors? Telling it like it is?
> 
> Source: Comments section:
> http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/2012/08/breaking-news-possible-new-wca.html?spref=fb


 
I read the descriptors. I think they are an improvement on the current ones but there is still a long way to go.

I don't think the 'discomfort' descriptor should try to encompass pain as well as other issues such fatigue, vertigo etc. As someone with a chronic pain condition I fight each day with (if I'm lucky) moderate or severe pain, sometimes it's like a stabbing pain, other times it's like someone is squeezing my kidney. On a really bad I can't make it to the kitchen easily and my brain is so flooded with pain signals I can't even have a conversation on the phone because the effort is too much. 

I can't really put my finger on why I don't think the new descriptors as they currently stand would work. I do think that by primarily being constructed by mental health charities that their focus has shifted away from physical problems and conditions - and that in itself is no bad thing - but there needs to be balance between physical and mental health, not one over the other.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

This government have stated that there is 20 percent less money available and that's the core of the problem. Fiddling about with descriptors, or awarding contracts to whoever is not going to change that.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

I get the feeling these charities are being given the task of smoothing over dissent in return for funding either from government or through DWP, WP, MWA, WA contracts rather than actually coming up with descriptors that the government will accept. Perhaps a few will make it through after  consideration that won't sway the actual outcomes by much. 

As you say audiotech the reduction of 20% and the possible other 10% bandied about leave little room for leeway. 

It's generally thought now that no targets are needed as the test itself is so loaded on the outcomes. Once the UC comes in and they change the way appeals can be made many will not be able to afford to go to appeal after the reconsideration stage if their benefit is going to be stopped at appeal stage.

From Benefits and Work
No ESA for claimants who want to appeal


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm surprised the European Court of Human Rights hasn't gotten involved yet - this whole thing must surely breah human rights in some way.

Mind you, who on benefits could afford to take the case forward? Barristers cost a lot.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

There's a disbled man from the US Samuel Miller ‏@Hephaestus7  
https://twitter.com/Hephaestus7

Who actually reports to the UN about the Welfare situation here in the UK. Not sure what difference it'll make. I think he helps the Spartacus team too.

Interesting man.


----------



## toggle (Aug 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm surprised the European Court of Human Rights hasn't gotten involved yet - this whole thing must surely breah human rights in some way.
> 
> Mind you, who on benefits could afford to take the case forward? Barristers cost a lot.


 


having the energy to take things that far as well. and with the way people get treated, the determination to paint a target on your back to every twat that wants a 'scrounger' to have a go at.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2012)

toggle said:


> having the energy to take things that far as well. and with the way people get treated, the determination to paint a target on your back to every twat that wants a 'scrounger' to have a go at.


 
Or to become a target for payback from the DWP themselves. Remember what happened at my appeal hearing?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/02/atos-disability-benefit-tests
> 
> ATOS been awarded the PIP medical, ffs...


 
This was inevitable from the moment G4S screwed the pooch on the Olympics security provision. The government believe that they shouldn't be seen to endorse a company with such a recent shit-splash on it's record, so Atos it is.
Fortunately, Atos have now, via Channel 4 and BBC, also been shown to have screwed the pooch, so our job should be to reinforce Atos' pooch-screwing abilities by not letting anyone forget about it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

MEDICAL SERVICES
PROVIDED ON BEHALF OF THE DEPARTMENT FOR WORK AND PENSIONS.
Training & Development
Revised WCA Handbook
ESA (LCW/LCWRA) Amendment Regulations 2011
MED-ESAAR2011HB~001
Version: 5 Final
5th July 2012

Just got emailed the link for this pdf. Very useful, though seriously tedious, reading.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Oh and.. Good article from Anne Begg MP in the Indy

It’s not the benefit fraudsters who are targeted in the media, it’s the disabled


> No it is not the real fraudsters, estimated to be less than 1% of benefit claimants, who are the target for the abuse, it is those with an obvious physical or learning disability.  That’s why some of the irresponsible reporting has been so dangerous.  It is the person who clearly has a disability, who may actually be in work, who is having to suffer the taunts, the name calling and being spat on.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

'Did any of you see the article on page 17 of the SUN on Thursday August 2, top right hand corner? It throws light on what IDS said about the Judges at Appeals making the "Wrong" decisions.

Article reads. Clamp on the cheats. Bogus benefit claimants are to be stopped from abusing lengthy appeals so they can carry on drawing money while avoiding getting a job. Instead of a costly tribunal, anyone unhappy at losing handouts will have to argue with Whitehall direct.Ministers hope the crackdown will stop people running rings round the system to put off getting job. Claimants loose almost seven out of ten appeals at tribunals. But a quarter of cases take more than 33 weeks to complete - with millions in benefits pais out along the way.

There is no attribution to the article.'


This has been posted on another site, some disgusting news if true, many knew the Tories weren't happy with the appeal success rate, now they are going to try and abolish them, surely there must be legal challenges to this, its becoming like a banana republic...


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Oh and.. Good article from Anne Begg MP in the Indy
> 
> It’s not the benefit fraudsters who are targeted in the media, it’s the disabled


 
Anne Begg did nothing to challenge the welfare reforms when she was a Gov't minister, etc, but this is welcome, but Ed must speak out and now...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Did any of you see the article on page 17 of the SUN on Thursday August 2, top right hand corner? It throws light on what IDS said about the Judges at Appeals making the "Wrong" decisions.
> 
> Article reads. Clamp on the cheats. Bogus benefit claimants are to be stopped from abusing lengthy appeals so they can carry on drawing money while avoiding getting a job. Instead of a costly tribunal, anyone unhappy at losing handouts will have to argue with Whitehall direct.Ministers hope the crackdown will stop people running rings round the system to put off getting job. Claimants loose almost seven out of ten appeals at tribunals. But a quarter of cases take more than 33 weeks to complete - with millions in benefits pais out along the way.
> 
> ...


I do try never to read the Scum tree,but, I know it's better to know the kind of shit we're up against so I'll have a rummage. It's fucking disgusing the way the DWP & gubmnt are letting/using the media attack and cause so much hatred. Leveson appears to be taking no interest rgardless of groups trying to put a case.

I fucking despair.

Oh and edited to add again as I'm not sure if this link is on this thread..

No ESA for claimants who want to appeal


----------



## yardbird (Aug 3, 2012)

If they do try and scrap the appeals procedure, they have no idea of the legal maelstrom that they will unleash.
That item from the SUN is unbelievable - suggests that everybody that may appeal is a cheat!


----------



## culder (Aug 3, 2012)

Just seen this -

http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/02/dont-misuse-your-disability-benefits-the-dwp-might/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

The maelstrom is long over due Yardie. Legal or otherwise.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

culder said:


> Just seen this -
> 
> http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/02/dont-misuse-your-disability-benefits-the-dwp-might/


That's a good one innit. If you claim for your disabled child, you are no longer their parent but their appointee and any deviation from the DWP determination of that status................ Scary.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

culder said:


> Just seen this -
> 
> http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/02/dont-misuse-your-disability-benefits-the-dwp-might/


 

Good grief, they are acting like the Stasti...


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The maelstrom is long over due Yardie. Legal or otherwise.


 
I think a critical mass is developing, its affecting millions, but even today Milliband hasn't replied to Sonia despite her thousands of endorsements...


----------



## yardbird (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The maelstrom is long over due Yardie. Legal or otherwise.


It would lead to lots of direct legal action against ATOS


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Protests as Atos wins benefits contracts
From ft.com for those without a log in.



> Charities representing disabled people have protested at a decision to award fresh government contracts to Atos Healthcare, which has faced criticism for the way it carries out tests to determine whether sickness benefit claimants are fit to work.
> The government announced on Thursday that three contracts for assessing claimants’ eligibility for the personal independence payment (PIP), in total worth £587m, had been awarded – two to Atos and one to Capita Business Services.
> 
> PIP replaces the disability living allowance (DLA). Ministers have decided to abolish that allowance because they believe it fails to offer a systematic way of reassessing people when their conditions change. They point out that in nine years, the number claiming DLA has risen from just fewer than 2.5m to 3.2m.
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

dp


----------



## culder (Aug 3, 2012)

I'm still having trouble with the Harrington questionnaire. When I download the text version, all I get is a read-only document.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> I think a critical mass is developing, its affecting millions, but even today Milliband hasn't replied to Sonia despite her thousands of endorsements...


That's why I'm so pissed off at MIND using Sue and Kaliya to spread their Criteria bullshit. I'm seeing resignation, to accepting the so called bullshit changes to the crireria that arn't in any way guarenteed to actually be accepted DWP stazi, by those who follow them closely instead of the anti WCA they used to have a few days ago. That whole exercise stinks to me.


----------



## Quartz (Aug 3, 2012)

culder said:


> Just seen this -
> 
> http://blogs.independent.co.uk/2012/08/02/dont-misuse-your-disability-benefits-the-dwp-might/


 
That's disgusting.


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

Echoing what one commenter said on that blog piece, one of the things I learn't while campaigning against the initial WRA about N/L and its ideology, and now of course the Tories, is they just don't believe in any idea of 'security' people have to be 'always on the move, moving forward, never sedentary, always looking for the next opportunity, its encapsulated in the neo-liberal concept of the 'active citizen' but how it can be applied to the sick and disabled beggars me...

its truly hard to believe that once convalescence was an option for sick people...

oh, I should have added, except for them and their mates!


----------



## yardbird (Aug 3, 2012)

I read this thread with anger, disbelief and involvement. 
But it's also almost surreal - like Logan's Run or more like Soylent Green!
I'm not meaning to trivialize, but to imagine this pervasive IT conglomerate acting in the fashion it does with no controls is as if I were reading a si fi  novel from forty years ago.
That's depressing.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm still having trouble with the Harrington questionnaire. When I download the text version, all I get is a read-only document.


 
I've not looked at the Harrington Q culder but his has just appeared in my email.
Disability Rights UK work capability assessment (WCA) survey


> Professor Harrington is undertaking his third and final independent Review of the WCA and we would like your help to shape our response. We have drafted a short survey and your answers and input could help improve the WCA. The questions from the Harrington Review form part of our survey. We also provide some extra questions to ensure we provide a response based on disabled people’s experiences.



I'm right off charities at the moment. Not that I ever thought they were much but money making business' that cream off so much for their CEO wages and infrastructure anyway.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I read this thread with anger, disbelief and involvement.
> But it's also almost surreal - like Logan's Run or more like Soylent Green!
> I'm not meaning to trivialize, but to imagine this pervasive IT conglomerate acting in the fashion it does with no controls is as if I were reading a si fi novel from forty years ago.
> That's depressing.


Aye. When everyones info and experiences are brought together it really is mindboggling Yardie. Overwhelming. Half the time my eyebrows are knitting together and the other half shooting up into my hairline.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2012)

Also, it's not just that the DWP can be incompetent, lazy, dishonest, obstructive and generally difficult. They can also be downright vindictive. Anyone who read my thread on the benefits forum about my fight with them last year will remember that I went to the appeal tribunal and lost, fair enough.

What i don't think I mentioned was that at the end of the hearing when they were giving their ruling, the head of the tribunal told me that there had 'been a request' (he didn't say from whom, but who else could it be?) that they look at the mobility component of my DLA (I'm on lower rate mobility) with a view to depriving me of the mobility component entirely, but that the tribunal wasn't even going to look at the mobility component at all.

Now, I wonder, precisely from where could that 'request' have emanated..?


----------



## Meltingpot (Aug 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Did any of you see the article on page 17 of the SUN on Thursday August 2, top right hand corner? It throws light on what IDS said about the Judges at Appeals making the "Wrong" decisions.
> 
> Article reads. Clamp on the cheats. Bogus benefit claimants are to be stopped from abusing lengthy appeals so they can carry on drawing money while avoiding getting a job. Instead of a costly tribunal, anyone unhappy at losing handouts will have to argue with Whitehall direct.Ministers hope the crackdown will stop people running rings round the system to put off getting job. *Claimants loose almost seven out of ten appeals at tribunals.* But a quarter of cases take more than 33 weeks to complete - with millions in benefits pais out along the way.
> 
> There is no attribution to the article.'


 
Where on earth do they get that figure from? The majority of claims are succcessful. Sadly, the majority of the paper's readers will most likely take it at face value.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Also, it's not just that the DWP can be incompetent, lazy, dishonest, obstructive and generally difficult. They can also be downright vindictive. Anyone who read my thread on the benefits forum about my fight with them last year will remember that I went to the appeal tribunal and lost, fair enough.
> 
> What i don't think I mentioned was that at the end of the hearing when they were giving their ruling, the head of the tribunal told me that there had 'been a request' (he didn't say from whom, but who else could it be?) that they look at the mobility component of my DLA (I'm on lower rate mobility) with a view to depriving me of the mobility component entirely, but that the tribunal wasn't even going to look at the mobility component at all.
> 
> Now, I wonder, precisely from where could that 'request' have emanated..?


Shit Bakunin... yeah. Can you link to those other posts m'dear ta. I remember them but so much is going on I've lost the plot. I'd appreciate having a re-read.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

Thanks Bakunin. A link to t'other thread would be appreciated.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Shit Bakunin... yeah. Can you link to those other posts m'dear ta. I remember them but so much is going on I've lost the plot. I'd appreciate having a re-read.


 


audiotech said:


> Thanks Bakunin. A link to t'other thread would be appreciated.


 
This thread details the fight I had to get as far as the appeals process:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ive-had-enough-of-the-dwp.273942/


----------



## toggle (Aug 3, 2012)

did you mention the letter about migration to esa that arrived the same week as the tribunal?


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2012)

toggle said:


> did you mention the letter about migration to esa that arrived the same week as the tribunal?


 
Ah yes, and let's not forget that they tried to have the tribunal without actually telling me they were having one at all. My original tribunal should have been in December. I only knew had a tribunal that day because they rang me up and asked me if I still wanted to appeal as it should have started 20 minutes BEFORE I'd picked up the phone, then had to send in yet another form explaining why I hadn't turned up and wait until January for the tribunal hearing I actually got at which the DWP did their best to shaft me out of the mobility component of my DLA as well.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> This thread details the fight I had to get as far as the appeals process:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ive-had-enough-of-the-dwp.273942/


Thanks m'dear. Just sat down with a sammich so off for a read. x


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

leading on from the critical mass notion, what is noticeable is how incredibly informed many people are , not just disabled and sick people, on the nature and petty brutalities of the welfare system, and the roles of ATOS, etc, this is so different from a few years ago when no one wanted to know, 

if only there were progressive political parties to take up all this...


----------



## treelover (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Ah yes, and let's not forget that they tried to have the tribunal without actually telling me they were having one at all. My original tribunal should have been in December. I only knew had a tribunal that day because they rang me up and asked me if I still wanted to appeal as it should have started 20 minutes BEFORE I'd picked up the phone, then had to send in yet another form explaining why I hadn't turned up and wait until January for the tribunal hearing I actually got at which the DWP did their best to shaft me out of the mobility component of my DLA as well.


 

just mind boggling, the DWP have been without scrutiny and out of control for a long time...


----------



## Greebo (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Ah yes, and let's not forget that they tried to have the tribunal without actually telling me they were having one at all. My original tribunal should have been in December. I only knew had a tribunal that day because they rang me up and asked me if I still wanted to appeal as it should have started 20 minutes BEFORE I'd picked up the phone, then had to send in yet another form explaining why I hadn't turned up and wait until January for the tribunal hearing I actually got at which the DWP did their best to shaft me out of the mobility component of my DLA as well.


Blimey, and I thought I'd become a bit too cynical about the DWP.


----------



## toggle (Aug 3, 2012)

dealing with that shit was not exactly the best start to our relationship.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> This thread details the fight I had to get as far as the appeals process:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/ive-had-enough-of-the-dwp.273942/


Just read through it again.

FUUUUUUCK...!!!


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just read through it again.
> 
> FUUUUUUCK...!!!


 
Yep, I'd love to be able to say that mine is an isolated case.

But that would be a barefaced lie.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 3, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Yep, I'd love to be able to say that mine is an isolated case.
> 
> But that would be a barefaced lie.


It's going through whole threads like yours and realising there's thousands, if not tens of thousands, of people going through the same that sickens, saddens and enrages all at once.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

culder said:


> I'm still having trouble with the Harrington questionnaire. When I download the text version, all I get is a read-only document.


 
Try this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

It's just occurred to me it's Saturday, and I don't believe Saturdays are good. They've had form for 2 weeks now so should I be expecting a phone call today?

If so, besides asking fora taperecording which they'll probably refuse and asking for a doctor experienced in brain injury, is there anything else I should be asking?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's just occurred to me it's Saturday, and I don't believe Saturdays are good. They've had form for 2 weeks now so should I be expecting a phone call today?
> 
> If so, besides asking fora taperecording which they'll probably refuse and asking for a doctor experienced in brain injury, is there anything else I should be asking?


You could ask if the assessor will be qualified in both his two main conditions, and see what they say. Given that a single doctor is unlikely to be qualified in both, you'll either get two doctors or he won't get called for an assessment (IMO). A single doctor or nurse cannot give him a fair assessment under DWP rules


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

They can't refuse recording. It's the right of the claimant to have the assessments recorded. Be prepared, based on the experiences of others, to phone once or twice to ensure this request has been noted on their records though.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

And also the assessment centre on the day. Someone turned up at theirs having been assured that there would be recording and the centre knew nothing about it.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 4, 2012)

Or just record it yourself. If you've told them you want it recorded I don't see how they can complain if you offer to do it for them.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Or just record it yourself. If you've told them you want it recorded I don't see how they can complain if you offer to do it for them.


Wasn't there something about that recording not being admissible for the appeal though?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Wasn't there something about that recording not being admissible for the appeal though?


 
Yeah, can only use it for own purposes I read


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, can only use it for own purposes I read


Which, given most are going to appeal, you don't want anything to count against you.

Nothing to say about notes though, or 'supplementary notes'


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> Anne Begg did nothing to challenge the welfare reforms when she was a Gov't minister, etc, but this is welcome, but Ed must speak out and now...


 
She's also the person who in 1997 said she didn't go into politics to be a spokesperson for disabled people. Funny how she leapt on it when she realised it'd give her a profile.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> She's also the person who in 1997 said she didn't go into politics to be a spokesperson for disabled people. Funny how she leapt on it when she realised it'd give her a profile.


She hasn't signed the Early Day Motion about Atos either.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's just occurred to me it's Saturday, and I don't believe Saturdays are good. They've had form for 2 weeks now so should I be expecting a phone call today?
> 
> If so, besides asking fora taperecording which they'll probably refuse and asking for a doctor experienced in brain injury, is there anything else I should be asking?


 
is he on the lists of [eople who can't be called in for assessment?


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, can only use it for own purposes I read


 
ok.

we might have covered this before, but who says it isn't usable. unless the tribunal service says so, then it is potentially useful.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> ok.
> 
> we might have covered this before, but who says it isn't usable. unless the tribunal service says so, then it is potentially useful.


 
The DWP and Atos say so *but*, as has been said here before, no-one's really aware whether this is legislation, or bullshit from the DWP. I fully intend to take recording equipment to any Atos assessment I have, on the premise that I can't be assured that they will provide recording equipment even if I request it.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The DWP and Atos say so *but*, as has been said here before, no-one's really aware whether this is legislation, or bullshit from the DWP. I fully intend to take recording equipment to any Atos assessment I have, on the premise that I can't be assured that they will provide recording equipment even if I request it.


 

atos certainly don't have a fucking say in how tribunals work.


afaik, the tribunals themselves should be the only judge of what is and isn't admissable as evidence. afaik, they are still a court. and the 'judge' determines admissability of evidence. not one party to proceedings.


eta: if atos knew recordings were worthless, why have their staff been told to throw a shitfit about being recorded? and why do they make obtaining recordings difficult.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's just occurred to me it's Saturday, and I don't believe Saturdays are good. They've had form for 2 weeks now so should I be expecting a phone call today?
> 
> If so, besides asking fora taperecording which they'll probably refuse and asking for a doctor experienced in brain injury, is there anything else I should be asking?


Was just wondering if you'd heard minnie. Fingers x'd it's a by straight into Support.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> atos certainly don't have a fucking say in how tribunals work.


 
Do you *really* think that'd stop the DWP trying to use consent and data protection issues around the recording of Atos staff as an excuse for having a private recording set aside?


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do you *really* think that'd stop the DWP trying to use consent and data protection issues around the recording of Atos staff as an excuse for having a private recording set aside?


 
they could try.  but the tribunals are supposed to work according to the law.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> they could try. but the tribunals are supposed to work according to the law.


 
Unfortunately, tribunals still err on the side of caution and refer contentious stuff upwards, which seems to have meant that we (claimants, carers etc) have no clear precedent on legality.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately, tribunals still err on the side of caution and refer contentious stuff upwards, which seems to have meant that we (claimants, carers etc) have no clear precedent on legality.


 
i'm fairly certain that the courts would give an almost instant response of 'this is acceptable as evidence' because the courts do accept such recordings as evidence.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> i'm fairly certain that the courts would give an almost instant response of 'this is acceptable as evidence' because the courts do accept such recordings as evidence.


Do you have any examples? It would be a really helpful point to have precedents on. As atos make all employees sign the Official secrets Act even though that's not a DWP requirement, I wonder if that would make a difference in the court's thinking?

I'll have a look to see if I can find anything too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> i'm fairly certain that the courts would give an almost instant response of 'this is acceptable as evidence' because the courts do accept such recordings as evidence.


 
In certain circumstances. For example direct recorded surveillance of criminal suspects is legislatively authorised as and when it's material to an investigation, and recorded statements from vulnerable witnesses are legislatively authorised in order to balance the scales somewhat away from defence barristers intimidating vulnerable witnesses.
There's no established precedent or legislation for recordings in the circumstances we're talking about, so we don't yet *know* whether such evidence will be accepted.  I really wish we did know, but as yet, we don't, we can only hope.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> In certain circumstances. For example direct recorded surveillance of criminal suspects is legislatively authorised as and when it's material to an investigation, and recorded statements from vulnerable witnesses are legislatively authorised in order to balance the scales somewhat away from defence barristers intimidating vulnerable witnesses.
> There's no established precedent or legislation for recordings in the circumstances we're talking about, so we don't yet *know* whether such evidence will be accepted. I really wish we did know, but as yet, we don't, we can only hope.


 
afaik, covert recordings of disciplinary hearings have been accepted as evidence by employment tribunals.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2012)

toggle said:


> afaik, covert recordings of disciplinary hearings have been accepted as evidence by employment tribunals.


 
Interesting. That *might* have established a precedent.


----------



## toggle (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Do you have any examples? It would be a really helpful point to have precedents on. As atos make all employees sign the Official secrets Act even though that's not a DWP requirement, I wonder if that would make a difference in the court's thinking?
> 
> I'll have a look to see if I can find anything too.


 
i wouldn't have thpought it would make a difference unless the provisions of the osa actually applyand thre's nothing that the HCP's working for atos go anywhere near that the osa applies to. and the things the osa apply to, you are bound by yhe act, whether you have been asked to sign it (signing it is simply a statement that you are aware of the principles of the act), ti's intimidatory, but won't make a real difference to the court.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Was just wondering if you'd heard minnie. Fingers x'd it's a by straight into Support.


 
Maybe they were all sneakily watching Olympics instead.

Got it back to them on the day of the deadline (20th) so I'm sure I'll hear soon 

Do they work Sundays?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe they were all sneakily watching Olympics instead.
> 
> Got it back to them on the day of the deadline (20th) so I'm sure I'll hear soon
> 
> Do they work Sundays?


If you're worried you could phone them on Monday.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> If you're worried you could phone them on Monday.


 
Noooooo, I don't want to speed them up


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Noooooo, I don't want to speed them up


Sp long as you're not worrying, doll.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Sp long as you're not worrying, doll.


 
I am, but trying not to think about it, hence being glued to Olympics to take mind off it


----------



## culder (Aug 4, 2012)

Thanks for the link to the Harrington survey - I was able to complete this one, but it didn't include all the questions from the original. Oh well...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks for the link to the Harrington survey - I was able to complete this one, but it didn't include all the questions from the original. Oh well...


I hope you liked the arsekicking zippy got, culder.

I hope you're feeling more positive.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 4, 2012)

Tell you what, those adverts for the paralympics that seem to be on the telly every ten minutes, well call me a conspiraloon if you will, but if you ask me, those ads are only being shown in order to plant the idea in peoples minds that disabled people can do sports = disabled people can work. When did it become socially acceptable to cast aspersions on the disabled? Some clown today said to me mate "Oh, yer only usin those crutches to get on the sick", well she battered him with those selfsame crutches, quite badly as well - I had to drag her away, leaving the gobshite in a pool of his own blood and victimhood. What the trumpet didn't realise is that she was brought up to fight and she's found it really hard to cope with the fact that her body's become weak, so him saying that was a red rag to the proverbial - I think she may have done him serious harm , even not firing on all cylinders, she is quite good at violence.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I hope you liked the arsekicking zippy got, culder.
> 
> I hope you're feeling more positive.


 
Zippy got used as a mop.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Zippy got used as a mop.




That'll learn him, hopefully.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Which, given most are going to appeal, you don't want anything to count against you.
> 
> Nothing to say about notes though, or 'supplementary notes'


 Just make accurate second by second notes from the dictaphone recording then.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 5, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Zippy got used as a mop.


FWIW I almost felt sorry for him.


----------



## treelover (Aug 5, 2012)

Just going through the ESA form now, you can see N/L's philosophy and MO right through it, and of course Purnell must have signed it off...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2012)

Greebo said:


> FWIW I almost felt sorry for him.


Almost.

But not actually.


----------



## Celt (Aug 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Just going through the ESA form now, you can see N/L's philosophy and MO right through it, and of course Purnell must have signed it off...


 
I to have been going through the form, I've spent hours on it.

N/L = New labour, but MO = ?, please provide a key 

I'm going to the benefits advice in the morning, I have read Work and Pension website, I can't help feeling, it doesn't really matter, they are going to fail me anyway, I know that isn't the way to go


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 5, 2012)

Celt said:


> I to have been going through the form, I've spent hours on it.
> 
> N/L = New labour, but MO = ?, please provide a key
> 
> I'm going to the benefits advice in the morning, I have read Work and Pension website, I can't help feeling, it doesn't really matter, they are going to fail me anyway, I know that isn't the way to go


 
Yeah, I think a lot of us are assuming we're automatically going to fail it, but it's still worth filling it in properly for the purposes of an appeal


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2012)

Celt said:


> I to have been going through the form, I've spent hours on it.
> 
> N/L = New labour, but MO = ?, please provide a key
> 
> I'm going to the benefits advice in the morning, I have read Work and Pension website, I can't help feeling, it doesn't really matter, they are going to fail me anyway, I know that isn't the way to go


Celt, if you would like any help with the form, I'm happy to help. Just start a conversation to keep it private. I can help in the evenings.

Don't assume you're going to fail it. You might not. Also don't forget to complete it as if you are on your worst day, not your best.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 5, 2012)

Celt said:


> <snip>I'm going to the benefits advice in the morning, I have read Work and Pension website, I can't help feeling, it doesn't really matter, they are going to fail me anyway, I know that isn't the way to go


You know the story of the Great Escape?  Every single one of those POWs wanted to get home if they possibly could, and very few of them got a home run.  OTOH what all of them (even the ones caught almost immediately) achieved was to divert into an enormous amount of the German manpower looking for them and carting them off (while doing that, they were less available for the rest of the war effort).  Just as importantly, it was a boost to morale for the POWs and hugely embarrassing for the authorities.

My point is, that IMHO you have to try.  If you can at all, even if you don't want to.  Even if you don't see the point.  Because every claim which is turned down for no good reason (and wins on appeal) changes case law, and gradually all of us win.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 5, 2012)

Greebo said:


> My point is, that IMHO you have to try. If you can at all, even if you don't want to. Even if you don't see the point. Because every claim which is turned down for no good reason (and wins on appeal) changes case law, and gradually all of us win.


 
and if you don't fill it in and make a claim, you'll only add to the Government's propaganda that they've reduced the number of claimants/dodgy claimants


----------



## Celt (Aug 5, 2012)

that makes some sense, like the analogy.

I think I have quite a problem communicating,  and so am having trouble communicating myself on to the form if that makes sense?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 5, 2012)

and make sure you read it through and through and don't contradict yourself


----------



## Greebo (Aug 5, 2012)

Celt said:


> that makes some sense, like the analogy.
> 
> I think I have quite a problem communicating, and so am having trouble communicating myself on to the form if that makes sense?


Yes it makes perfect sense. But there are advisers who can help you work out how to word it.

Not because you're stupid or anything:  People tend to blank out quite how sick or disabled they are because you begin to just think of it as normal for everyone, not just for you.


----------



## Celt (Aug 5, 2012)

I will fill it in, I have done a draft, I did two photocopies,  I have now marked the parts I'm having difficulty with.  I can't afford not to fill it in.


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Ceej, if you would like any help with the form, I'm happy to help. Just start a conversation to keep it private. I can help in the evenings.
> 
> Don't assume you're going to fail it. You might not. Also don't forget to complete it as if you are on your worst day, not your best.


Thanks, I may well send you what I have got so far, but will go to our benefits advice shop, it is well thought of locally, unfotunately when I went to tribunal long time ago on a council tax issue with them, we lost, partly due to my own inate sense of "present the best of yourself", I cannot help it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Celt said:


> I will fill it in, I have done a draft, I did two photocopies, I have now marked the parts I'm having difficulty with. I can't afford not to fill it in.


 
You probably haven't put nearly enough information in.  Mine got longer and longer and longer when I had certain people on here helping me


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

sorry thread hogging but writing this I realise that describing this behaviour


> unfotunately when I went to tribunal long time ago on a council tax issue with them, we lost, partly due to my own inate sense of "present the best of yourself", I cannot help it.


 is my biggest problem,


I need to get to bed if I'm going to achieve benefits advice, night thread


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2012)

Celt said:


> sorry thread hogging but writing this I realise that describing this behaviour
> is my biggest problem,
> 
> 
> I need to get to bed if I'm going to achieve benefits advice, night thread


Of course you want to present yourself well. It's just that Atos seem to be using it against claimants even if getting to the assessment was a real struggle. The more evidence you can present about your condition(s), the harder it is for them to argue against you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Celt said:


> sorry thread hogging but writing this I realise that describing this behaviour
> is my biggest problem,
> 
> 
> I need to get to bed if I'm going to achieve benefits advice, night thread


 
Don't worry about it, I hogged it for ages when I was filling form


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Of course you want to present yourself well. It's just that Atos seem to be using it against claimants even if getting to the assessment was a real struggle. The more evidence you can present about your condition(s), the harder it is for them to argue against you.


 
Yep, even if you look well-presented, it sounds like that can go against you.  Saw it in a CAB thingy, where they said that person who got copy of assessment was classed as well-kempt etc.  The CAB found that impossible to believe as he was always a total mess whenever they saw him


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Don't worry about it, I hogged it for ages when I was filling form





Celt said:


> sorry thread hogging but writing this I realise that describing this behaviour
> is my biggest problem,
> 
> I need to get to bed if I'm going to achieve benefits advice, night thread


It's not hogging, it's why the thread was set up - to help anybody who needed it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It's not hogging, it's why the thread was set up - to help anybody who needed it.


 
I feel better now


----------



## Libertad (Aug 6, 2012)

Quick little aside here, I've just received my second ESA50, six months after the last. Little has changed in my condition, should I fill it in exactly as I did the last one? I copied it so I have a good record and I was helped to fill it in by an Urb who has had experience in these matters.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Quick little aside here, I've just received my second ESA50, six months after the last. Little has changed in my condition, should I fill it in exactly as I did the last one? I copied it so I have a good record and I was helped to fill it in by an Urb who has had experience in these matters.


 
I'd be tempted to scrawl across the whole fucking thing "NO CHANGE YOU BASTARDS!", but you're better off taking advice from someone else


----------



## Greebo (Aug 6, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Quick little aside here, I've just received my second ESA50, six months after the last. Little has changed in my condition, should I fill it in exactly as I did the last one? I copied it so I have a good record and I was helped to fill it in by an Urb who has had experience in these matters.


Unless you've got worse, yes.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 6, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Unless you've got worse, yes.


 
Do you think that I should include the fact that the stress that they are putting me under will decrease the chances of my treatment being successful? I wondered if that might help if things go to appeal.

What about using the phrase "bunch of cunts" liberally? That course of action would accurately reflect my current state of mind.


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

the benefits advice shop weren't a lot of help, they basically talked through the form with me, but not the form as it affects me, the following are things I need to include but am not sure where , I'd appreciate some help if you have the time.

thanks

1. I sleep walk, and night eat, I am not concious of this and often only find out the following day when I find the remnants and disaray of food preparation, sometimes fairly safe (cereal, milk may get spilt, but not dangerous, however I have made toast, heated things in microwave, boiled a kettle. This leaves me tired, not rested and can affect my blood sugar negatively. This happens a couple of times in most weeks, sometimes every night for a week, it is not within my control, I was seen by a sleep clinic in Fazakaly hospital over 20 years ago, who advised on the best way to get sleep, practices I do try.

2. also, when someone is giving me instructions, I often get flustered, I feel my brain function is used up on coping with pain, low self esteem stops me from asking people to repeat enough entil I understand, and will say I understand when I don't.

3. Many years of chronic pain have meant I have become an expert at constantly assessing my needs to alieviate pain, to keep moving in a chair, or to change position, and if I can't get comfotable i need to lie down, depending on the severtity of the pain, which can vary from mild, to severe on how long I need to lie down for, I can need to be there all day. I use head and cold and when able a variety of pain killers (variety of strenght and type), although I have a sensitivity to opiate pain killers which makes me itch, madly and it is simply exchanging one unpleasant sensation for another. This happens in the main after taking two doses, it is unpredictable and is a condition I will have for life, it is very depressing dealing with lifelong illness.


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

I wrote the above and shared it this morning with a poster here who has been helpful but has suggested I make the discussion public, so ^^^

putting this in reality, I have chronic pain in L5/S1 following disc surgery a lot of years ago, the pain in low back pain, which makes life difficult and when secondly and not always together sciatic pain, which is extreme.

the rest of this post detailed panic, and I kind of know where that goes on the form now, but help would be appreciated if you have the time.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2012)

Celt said:


> I wrote the above and shared it this morning with a poster here who has been helpful but has suggested I make the discussion public, so ^^^
> 
> putting this in reality, I have chronic pain in L5/S1 following disc surgery a lot of years ago, the pain in low back pain, which makes life difficult and when chronic sciatic pain, which is extreme.
> 
> ...


 
Well I didn't mean make your condition public, I meant publicly ask if anyone's willing to help you with form


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

its ok, minnie, badly worded, i'm not ashamed at my condition and if I get trolled well , its tough, I understood that, I wanted to open the conversation out,


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I didn't mean make your condition public, I meant publicly ask if anyone's willing to help you with form


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 6, 2012)

Celt said:


> I wrote the above and shared it this morning with a poster here who has been helpful but has suggested I make the discussion public, so ^^^
> 
> putting this in reality, I have chronic pain in L5/S1 following disc surgery a lot of years ago, the pain in low back pain, which makes life difficult and when secondly and not always together sciatic pain, which is extreme.
> 
> the rest of this post detailed panic, and I kind of know where that goes on the form now, but help would be appreciated if you have the time.


 
I'll reply to this tomorrow, if that's okay?


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2012)

thanks vp, that would be great 

I gotta be asleep soon.

I broke my back in the early 80's,  its been , different  

Night thread


----------



## treelover (Aug 7, 2012)

'INTRODUCTION
1 This memo clarifies guidance on the use of aids and appliances when assessing LCW following a UT decision, CE/1217/111.

1 [2011]UKUT 449 (AAC); ESA Regs, reg 19(4)
BACKGROUND

2 The facts of the UT decision were as follows. The claimant suffered from problems with his knee. He had not been advised to use a walking stick, and did not do so. Following application of the WCA, the DM determined that the claimant did not score any points, and ESA was terminated. On appeal, the FtT awarded 9 points for descriptor 3(b) (bending or kneeling). They considered that the claimant’s difficulties with walking, standing and sitting could be helped by the use of a walking stick. As the score was still less than 15 points, the DM’s decision was upheld.'
htttp://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/m-24-12.pdf

Important news!

It seems there has been a new judgement by a tribunal and now clarification by the DWP that the use of a walking stick, etc, could be described as ameliorating a persons condition/enabling the claimant to carry out an action, and that they should consider that use of a walking stick(whether one is used or not) could enable the claimant to mobilise effectively, I think it is effectively saying that if you can walk/stand with the use of a walking stick you could and may fail the walking/standing/mobilising part of the ESA.

it just gets worse....

this was from benefits and work, its two months old, i'm not sure how significant they think it is, I think it is...


----------



## Libertad (Aug 7, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Do you think that I should include the fact that the stress that they are putting me under will decrease the chances of my treatment being successful? I wondered if that might help if things go to appeal.


 
Any ideas? Stress has been proven to reduce the chances of a positive outcome with this treatment.


----------



## ericjarvis (Aug 7, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Any ideas? Stress has been proven to reduce the chances of a positive outcome with this treatment.


 
Unfortunately the government position is that all stress related illnesses are faked and therefore those suffering from them must be put under as much stress as possible. As far as they are concerned the fact that the number of people on incapacity and disability benefits is going down is proof that they are right, and that it's totally irrelevant how many of those have stopped claiming because they are dead.

This is because to accept that there really has been a genuine increase in serious stress related illness over the last three decades would mean that there is a downside to the policy (of all three main parties) of constantly worsening job security, taking away secure tenancies, reducing access to social housing, keeping wages low, and so on.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Unfortunately the government position is that all stress related illnesses are faked and therefore those suffering from them must be put under as much stress as possible. As far as they are concerned the fact that the number of people on incapacity and disability benefits is going down is proof that they are right, and that it's totally irrelevant how many of those have stopped claiming because they are dead.
> 
> This is because to accept that there really has been a genuine increase in serious stress related illness over the last three decades would mean that there is a downside to the policy (of all three main parties) of constantly worsening job security, taking away secure tenancies, reducing access to social housing, keeping wages low, and so on.


Liked because you're right, not because I agree that this should happen.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 7, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Unfortunately the government position is that all stress related illnesses are faked and therefore those suffering from them must be put under as much stress as possible. As far as they are concerned the fact that the number of people on incapacity and disability benefits is going down is proof that they are right, and that it's totally irrelevant how many of those have stopped claiming because they are dead.
> 
> This is because to accept that there really has been a genuine increase in serious stress related illness over the last three decades would mean that there is a downside to the policy (of all three main parties) of constantly worsening job security, taking away secure tenancies, reducing access to social housing, keeping wages low, and so on.


 
I'm not suffering from a stress related illness though.

My question is whether I should make the point, when filling out my new ESA50, that the stress that is being brought on by the fear of losing my benefit and the whole process that they're forcing me to engage in has been proven to decrease the efficacy of the chemo that I'm about to undertake?

I have one shot at this treatment, if it doesn't work then I'm fucked, there is no alternative available to me.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I'm not suffering from a stress related illness though.
> 
> My question is whether I should make the point, when filling out my new ESA50, that the stress that is being brought on by the fear of losing my benefit and the whole process that they're forcing me to engage in has been proven to decrease the efficacy of the chemo that I'm about to undertake?
> 
> I have one shot at this treatment, if it doesn't work then I'm fucked, there is no alternative available to me.


 
I'd make that point if I was in your shoes - If you fail your medical (fingers crossed you won't, obviously), it won't be because the examiner's taken umbrage at you accusing them of causing you undue stress.

E2a, hope your treatment works.


----------



## toggle (Aug 7, 2012)

freind of mine burried her father about 10 days ago after he died of cancer. a short while before hsi death, they ended his esa and informed him that he should be seeking work. my friend has not got to the point where she's stopped crying about this and is now getting very, very pissed off. provided her mother is ok with this, she's planning on trying to use his case to highlight that this is going on.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 7, 2012)

Thanks FL.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Unfortunately the government position is that all stress related illnesses are faked and therefore those suffering from them must be put under as much stress as possible. As far as they are concerned the fact that the number of people on incapacity and disability benefits is going down is proof that they are right, and that it's totally irrelevant how many of those have stopped claiming because they are dead.
> 
> This is because to accept that there really has been a genuine increase in serious stress related illness over the last three decades would mean that there is a downside to the policy (of all three main parties) of constantly worsening job security, taking away secure tenancies, reducing access to social housing, keeping wages low, and so on.


 
Would be interesting to see how many civil servants are off work with stress whilst being paid sick leave, but completely different for long-term sick


----------



## treelover (Aug 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> freind of mine burried her father about 10 days ago after he died of cancer. a short while before hsi death, they ended his esa and informed him that he should be seeking work. my friend has not got to the point where she's stopped crying about this and is now getting very, very pissed off. provided her mother is ok with this, she's planning on trying to use his case to highlight that this is going on.


 
Appalling and obscene, should get in touch with Sue Marsh of Diary Of a Benefit Scrounger' or the more 'militant' Black Triangle campaign.

there is an issue though that these will be seen as extreme cases and that the Govt/DWP will spin it that they are being humane and flexible if they change the ruling on cancer victims working, though of course any misery spared them is a very good thing..


----------



## Celt (Aug 8, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'd make that point if I was in your shoes - If you fail your medical (fingers crossed you won't, obviously), it won't be because the examiner's taken umbrage at you accusing them of causing you undue stress.
> 
> E2a, hope your treatment works.


 
I think I would mention it too, good luck


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Any ideas? Stress has been proven to reduce the chances of a positive outcome with this treatment.


 
It depends on the individual, unfortunately. Most of the studies that show stress affecting chemo look at "populations" of cancer sufferers rather than at the individuals or at the physiological and psychological effects of stress on them as individuals.
Will it affect you? Almost certainly, but how much of an effect will manifest is impossible to predict. 
Definitely include the fact, and if possible, reference some of the research.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> freind of mine burried her father about 10 days ago after he died of cancer. a short while before hsi death, they ended his esa and informed him that he should be seeking work. my friend has not got to the point where she's stopped crying about this and is now getting very, very pissed off. provided her mother is ok with this, she's planning on trying to use his case to highlight that this is going on.


Add your post or what ever you think appropriate to this thread Toggle.
List of those for whom Welfare Reform and cuts were too much to bear


----------



## toggle (Aug 8, 2012)

treelover said:


> Appalling and obscene, should get in touch with Sue Marsh of Diary Of a Benefit Scrounger' or the more 'militant' Black Triangle campaign.
> 
> there is an issue though that these will be seen as extreme cases and that the Govt/DWP will spin it that they are being humane and flexible if they change the ruling on cancer victims working, though of course any misery spared them is a very good thing..


 
i've passed that on. thanks


----------



## yardbird (Aug 8, 2012)

I found that the unpleasant things about my first assessment started at front of house.
They were horrid.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I found that the unpleasant things about my first assessment started at front of house.
> They were horrid.


 
Probably started before then with their cameras outside


----------



## yardbird (Aug 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Probably started before then with their cameras outside


No cameras at the punters entrance of Lees House in Brighton, if there had have been then maybe they would have noticed the empty Thunderbird bottles, the ciggie buts and the disposable sharp that that I carefully picked up, wrapped in paper and took to my GPs for correct disposal.
The fire doors were jammed open ('cos it was hot!)
I said you have to close them NOW!
Totally illegal and dangerous.
You will do it before I leave.
I took pics.
Also fire exit crash bars damaged and falling of.
Customer relations - oh yeah, they were crap of course.
This was a maybe 3 > 4 years ago and I still have the pics - well usable I would think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> No cameras at the punters entrance of Lees House in Brighton, if there had have been then maybe they would have noticed the empty Thunderbird bottles, the ciggie buts and the disposable sharp that that I carefully picked up, wrapped in paper and took to my GPs for correct disposal.
> The fire doors were jammed open ('cos it was hot!)
> I said you have to close them NOW!
> Totally illegal and dangerous.
> ...


 
You should post them somewhere!

I bet they have got hidden cameras though but you just didn't see them. Maybe too well hidden


----------



## yardbird (Aug 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You should post them somewhere!
> 
> I bet they have got hidden cameras though but you just didn't see them. Maybe too well hidden


Just possibly illegal.


----------



## Meltingpot (Aug 8, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Liked because you're right, not because I agree that this should happen.


 
Same here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Just possibly illegal.


 
True, but then would you trust Atos to take any notice of that


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I'm not suffering from a stress related illness though.
> 
> My question is whether I should make the point, when filling out my new ESA50, that the stress that is being brought on by the fear of losing my benefit and the whole process that they're forcing me to engage in has been proven to decrease the efficacy of the chemo that I'm about to undertake?
> 
> I have one shot at this treatment, if it doesn't work then I'm fucked, there is no alternative available to me.


Here's some references which show that stress can have a detrimental effect on chemotherapy treatment - I hope they are useful to you:
http://erc.endocrinology-journals.org/content/13/Supplement_1/S115.full

http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/doxheart.htm

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=ADA302434


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Here's some references which show that stress can have a detrimental effect on chemotherapy treatment - I hope they are useful to you:
> http://erc.endocrinology-journals.org/content/13/Supplement_1/S115.full
> 
> http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/doxheart.htm
> ...


 
and I asked a consultant the other day about the type of treatment you're having and it can stay in system for 3-6 months.  Was a bit disappointed to hear that


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and I asked a consultant the other day about the type of treatment you're having and it can stay in system for 3-6 months. Was a bit disappointed to hear that


That's a bit of a bugger.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and I asked a consultant the other day about the type of treatment you're having and it can stay in system for 3-6 months. Was a bit disappointed to hear that


 
I'll deal with that after I get past the initial 48 weeks.
Starting in September Minnie, I'll keep you posted, thanks for thinking of me.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Here's some references which show that stress can have a detrimental effect on chemotherapy treatment - I hope they are useful to you:
> http://erc.endocrinology-journals.org/content/13/Supplement_1/S115.full
> 
> http://researchnews.osu.edu/archive/doxheart.htm
> ...


 
Thanks equationgirl, really appreciate that. I might print off a copy of the pertinent parts and include them with the ESA50 just to show them I mean business.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I'll deal with that after I get past the initial 48 weeks.
> Starting in September Minnie, I'll keep you posted, thanks for thinking of me.


 
Good luck with it.  Hope you don't get too many side-effects


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thanks equationgirl, really appreciate that. I might print off a copy of the pertinent parts and include them with the ESA50 just to show them I mean business.


You're welcome, Libertad, just shout if there's anything else. Out of interest, will your treatment be in tablet form or IV?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I'll deal with that after I get past the initial 48 weeks.
> Starting in September Minnie, I'll keep you posted, thanks for thinking of me.


I'll be keeping my fingers crossed for you, Libertad.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You're welcome, Libertad, just shout if there's anything else. Out of interest, will your treatment be in tablet form or IV?


 
Both. Very complicated and time-robbing tablet regime and self administered shots. At least I'll be at home for it. Its got to be worth it to get my life back.
What I don't need is having to attend a WCA or being forced into doing unpaid work, both of which I'm physically and mentally incapable of doing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Both. Very complicated and time-robbing tablet regime and self administered shots. At least I'll be at home for it. Its got to be worth it to get my life back.
> What I don't need is having to attend a WCA or being forced into doing unpaid work, both of which I'm physically and mentally incapable of doing.


 

Remember to list anaemia as a side-effect


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Remember to list anaemia as a side-effect


 
The thing is Minnie that I'm having to fill in my ESA50 now, with the symptoms and problems that I have at the moment, ie before treatment. What I'm particularly worried about is being called in for a WCA just as treatment has started.
It's almost as if ATOS have planned it like this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> The thing is Minnie that I'm having to fill in my ESA50 now, with the symptoms and problems that I have at the moment, ie before treatment. What I'm particularly worried about is being called in for a WCA just as treatment has started.
> It's almost as if ATOS have planned it like this.


 
Yeah, see your point, but if you've had side effects before, it's worth mentioning that you'd had them with treatment and are about to have same treatment again

Probably won't do any good, but by the time your appeal comes, you *may *be anaemic then


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

I take your point, I went anaemic on both of the last two treatment cycles but battled through it avoiding any reduction in meds but I really paid for it. I had post viral fatigue for eight months the first time and I'm still not clear of it after the second, but keep that to yourself eh Minnie, don't want to have treatment held back.
The real bastards psychologically, are the Ribas; mood swings, uncontrollable rages and all that, must make an effort to channel that energy.


----------



## culder (Aug 8, 2012)

I wish I knew how to help Libertad and Celt.

Even though I've won my appeal, the whole thing is still there in my head and I don't seriously believe that I won't have to go through it all again.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I take your point, I went anaemic on both of the last two treatment cycles but battled through it avoiding any reduction in meds but I really paid for it. I had post viral fatigue for eight months the first time and I'm still not clear of it after the second, but keep that to yourself eh Minnie, don't want to have treatment held back.
> The real bastards psychologically, are the Ribas; mood swings, uncontrollable rages and all that, must make an effort to channel that energy.


I think you should include details of the treatment, and the side effects you had last treatment cycle. 

I asked about the method of delivery as in the Dispatches programme about Atos, the Atos trainer said the tablet therapy was disregarded but IV meant points were awarded. Plus, by the time the WCA comes around, you may very well have started the treatment and be experiencing side effects. Do you have a date for treatment starting?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

culder said:


> I wish I knew how to help Libertad and Celt.
> 
> Even though I've won my appeal, the whole thing is still there in my head and I don't seriously believe that I won't have to go through it all again.


By posting you are supporting and therefore helping people on this thread which, as Violent Panda pointed out to me, is more than 99% of the population are doing.

It is not in your head - you would not have won your appeal otherwise. 

You do what you can, when you can, however you can.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I had post viral fatigue for eight months the first time and I'm still not clear of it after the second, *but keep that to yourself eh Minnie,*


 
You are aware that this is public aren't you?


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think you should include details of the treatment, and the side effects you had last treatment cycle.
> 
> I asked about the method of delivery as in the Dispatches programme about Atos, the Atos trainer said the tablet therapy was disregarded but IV meant points were awarded. Plus, by the time the WCA comes around, you may very well have started the treatment and be experiencing side effects. Do you have a date for treatment starting?


 
Second week of September.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2012)

Thread hogging here, thanks for the support,night night thread.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Second week of September.


So about a month, then. I'd be surprised if they process your form and set a date for the WCA in that time, going by what others have said. That could work in your favour, so to speak, if you've started the treatment.

If you would like me to check the complete list of side effects for each med, let me know. It's worth highlighting on the form if you take 2 or more meds with side effects like nausea, vomiting, pain, fatigue, headaches etc, as the combination of meds can make the side effects worse - certain combinations amplify the side effects, basically.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thread hogging here, thanks for the support,night night thread.


No, no, not hogging, it's what we're here for 

Also, if you want to have a private discussion, set up a conversation and invite people to it. You can be more open then, if you want to.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 9, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think you should include details of the treatment, and the side effects you had last treatment cycle.


 
Undoubtedly do this.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 9, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thread hogging here, thanks for the support,night night thread.


No you're not Libertad. Please don't think that at all. *that's you told*  xx


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 9, 2012)

Appealing Employment Support Allowance Decisions pdf

Yey. Finally found this again. Saved it without renaming while in brainfart mode.


----------



## Celt (Aug 10, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Thread hogging here, thanks for the support,night night thread.


 
I made the same or similar post a week ago, but have had some real help here and will take the next steps not quite as baffled, every new persons experience makes sense of the gravy?

I think I will get a nil or not enough points on the reading of the details, I sort of welcome the medical and if I go to tribunal, i go  one step at a time. 

I have the form in final draft mode, I went to see an ex colleague at MIND today with the draft, he has suggested some alterations.

I have been worried about submitting the fom, I find handwriting difficult and with a little encouragement have decided to go with the typewritten version with a clear index,  I need to get it in the post tomorrow, photocopied or scanned first, so thats the plan.

Night fred.


----------



## Celt (Aug 10, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I take your point, I went anaemic on both of the last two treatment cycles but battled through it avoiding any reduction in meds but I really paid for it. I had post viral fatigue for eight months the first time and I'm still not clear of it after the second, but keep that to yourself eh Minnie, don't want to have treatment held back.
> The real bastards psychologically, are the Ribas; mood swings, uncontrollable rages and all that, must make an effort to channel that energy.


 
aren't you susceptible to infection during treatment?  Would that be a reason you couldn't attend a medical?  would a home medical be any easier?


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

Yay, passed the medical and into the Support Group! Amazed. I have CFS/ME and depression and have been found fit for work by ATOS twice in the last few years. I signed up to benefitsandwork a couple of months ago and cottoned to lots of things I would never have worked out for myself. My ESA50, which I filled in, before joining b&w, was not persuasive and I had no-one to attend the medical with me, so WRAG was the best I was hoping for. Support Group feels like Olympic Gold! I've got a DLA claim in the works too...fingers crossed! Maybe I won't have to leave Brixton for somewhere cheaper. That's what I've been dreading.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 10, 2012)

Is that benefits & work worth a punt then?


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Is that benefits & work worth a punt then?


Definitely, Minnie and VP+Greebo subscribe to it and find it's really helped. Have a look over the past few pages and Greebo was discussing it recently, iirc.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Yay, passed the medical and into the Support Group! Amazed. I have CFS/ME and depression and have been found fit for work by ATOS twice in the last few years. I signed up to benefitsandwork a couple of months ago and cottoned to lots of things I would never have worked out for myself. My ESA50, which I filled in, before joining b&w, was not persuasive and I had no-one to attend the medical with me, so WRAG was the best I was hoping for. Support Group feels like Olympic Gold! I've got a DLA claim in the works too...fingers crossed! Maybe I won't have to leave Brixton for somewhere cheaper. That's what I've been dreading.


Fantastic news..


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Is that benefits & work worth a punt then?


Have a look at this discussion too and PM me if you want some guides. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-assessments-30-7.297008/page-4#post-11393746


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Have a look at this discussion too and PM me if you want some guides. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-assessments-30-7.297008/page-4#post-11393746


 
Cheers mate, what I'm going to do, though, is subscribe myself so all the information is at my disposal.


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Yay, passed the medical and into the Support Group! Amazed. I have CFS/ME and depression and have been found fit for work by ATOS twice in the last few years. I signed up to benefitsandwork a couple of months ago and cottoned to lots of things I would never have worked out for myself. My ESA50, which I filled in, before joining b&w, was not persuasive and I had no-one to attend the medical with me, so WRAG was the best I was hoping for. Support Group feels like Olympic Gold! I've got a DLA claim in the works too...fingers crossed! Maybe I won't have to leave Brixton for somewhere cheaper. That's what I've been dreading.


Wonderful news - jolly well done


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

For those who have difficulty filling in claim forms there are people who will do it for you, e.g. Broadway http://www.broadwaylondon.org/WhatWeDo/AdviceServices/WelfareRights.html They are for 'vulnerably housed' people, which seems to include anyone on benefits struggling with rent. They have one welfare rights worker for Lambeth called Dan Norris - nice bloke, very experienced. He makes home visits and fills in people's forms for them dan dot norris ...at....broadwaylondon.org.


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> For those who have difficulty filling in claim forms there are people who will do it for you, e.g. Broadway http://www.broadwaylondon.org/WhatWeDo/AdviceServices/WelfareRights.html They are for 'vulnerably housed' people, which seems to include anyone on benefits struggling with rent.


I think you should edit his email address with an 'at' instead of '@' else the poor man will get spammed into oblivion.


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## culder (Aug 10, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> By posting you are supporting and therefore helping people on this thread which, as Violent Panda pointed out to me, is more than 99% of the population are doing.
> 
> It is not in your head - you would not have won your appeal otherwise.
> 
> You do what you can, when you can, however you can.


 
Thanks, EG 

I didn't mean "it's all in my head", I meant the whole hassle and stress of it is still really fresh in my memory. I still feel angry about it all.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think you should edit his email address with an 'at' instead of '@' else the poor man will get spammed into oblivion.


 Good point!


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2012)

culder said:


> Thanks, EG
> 
> I didn't mean "it's all in my head", I meant the whole hassle and stress of it is still really fresh in my memory. I still feel angry about it all.


{{{{culder}}}}

I think the whole process is very traumatic for a lot of people going through it.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

I got so upset I was going to send a pint of my blood to Chris Grayling every day. I didn't get far, it hurt too much.  The ministers just don't seem to get that if you put ill people under stress they get more ill, which means being off work for longer and making more demands from the NHS. If anyone were to research the stress bill I'm sure it would exceed the fraud bill.


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## Libertad (Aug 10, 2012)

Celt said:


> aren't you susceptible to infection during treatment? Would that be a reason you couldn't attend a medical? would a home medical be any easier?


 
Yep, I will be. Tbh I don't even like going to the doctor's surgery, have you seen that place? Full of ill people.


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## Libertad (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Yay, passed the medical and into the Support Group! Amazed.


 
Yay for you Bandersnatch! Great news, enjoy the weekend.


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## Greebo (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Yay, passed the medical and into the Support Group!<snip>


I hope you've got some sort of celebration (no matter how low budget and sedate) planned.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

It was a brace of Tesco Finest chocolate muffins and a pot of extra thick cream! I'm so used to scrimping on everything it was the biggest extravagance I could think of!


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## Greebo (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> It was a brace of Tesco Finest chocolate muffins and a pot of extra thick cream! I'm so used to scrimping on everything it was the biggest extravagance I could think of!


I know what you mean.  For the first month after the arrival of the DLA backpayment, VP and I actually struggled to think of anything at all to spend it on.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 10, 2012)

So long as I can keep up with the rent I want to splurge on private treatment for the ME. Neither of the therapies offered by the ME clinic at King's are any use to me as I'm not well enough for them. They don't try to address the cause anyway. There are some private GPs who believe that in many cases ME is caused by mitochondrial failure. It's treated with harmless supplements, so I'd like to try it for a year. The cost of the tests and a year's worth of supplements is at least £500. If I get DLA it might be affordable.


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## Celt (Aug 10, 2012)

.


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## Greebo (Aug 10, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> So long as I can keep up with the rent I want to splurge on private treatment for the ME. <snip>There are some private GPs who believe that in many cases ME is caused by mitochondrial failure. It's treated with harmless supplements, so I'd like to try it for a year. The cost of the tests and a year's worth of supplements is at least £500. If I get DLA it might be affordable.


If you want to try it, I hope that it will work longterm for you.


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

http://www.bhfederation.org.uk/fede...-dpos-silent-over-secret-links-with-atos.html

http://www.bhfederation.org.uk/fede...t-‘if-assessments-are-not-fair-and-open’.html

Just can't believe this: two Disabled People's organisations (DPO's) Assist Uk, and Croydon Disability Forum apparently aided ATOS to get the PIP contracts and are to help administer the new PIP assessments, just what is next? , these were/are afaik grassroots organisations, shameful..


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

'The assessments themselves will be carried out by *NHS trusts* and private healthcare providers, rather than Atos assessors, although those carrying out the assessments will be trained by Atos.'

oh, and look at this, conflicts of interest?


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2012)

'Norton said Assist UK had decided to work with Capita despite the risk of involvement with an assessment that will help the government cut spending.
He said: “It is going to happen no matter what we do, so we might as well be part of it and keep control of some of the process and have a voice.
“We will be monitoring and watching what’s happening all the way along and if there is bad process and it goes pear-shaped we will pull out straight away.”

No they won't, Capita has said they hope that upto 40% of its operatives for the programme will be disabled themselves inc a large chunk of Norton's social enterprise, my god, how cunning are these private companies, sick in the head really...

btw, manning these centres with disabled people, investigating and involved in basically cutting benefit of other disabled people maybe some even forced there on workfare has massive implications.


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## Celt (Aug 10, 2012)

this process has got my disability rights dander up.

I took my ma to local pub, where there was a table accross the access
to the disabled loo, in the nicest of ways I told them it wasn't on.


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Celt said:


> this process has got my disability rights dander up.
> 
> I took my ma to local pub, where there was a table accross the access
> to the disabled loo, in the nicest of ways I told them it wasn't on.


Aye mine too. The lift was out of order today at work, despite being working first thing, yet no email was circulated and I know at least one person in the building couldn't use the stairs easily. Just as well there's no wheelchair users in the building currently


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## Celt (Aug 11, 2012)

Well its a funny thing we had been going to book christmas lunch , amd I am really disinclined now.

Travelling by public transport the other week, I was quite impressed with its accessability, and thinking about stops me thinking pain, I am wondering if there is an "online review this accesible place"


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2012)

Celt said:


> aren't you susceptible to infection during treatment? Would that be a reason you couldn't attend a medical? would a home medical be any easier?


 
If his white cell count is down, but I'm not sure they're going to consider that a good enough reason, although if he's severely anaemic, he won't have the energy to go anyway


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.bhfederation.org.uk/fede...-dpos-silent-over-secret-links-with-atos.html
> 
> http://www.bhfederation.org.uk/federation-news/item/1761-dpos-will-pull-out-of-pip-contract-‘if-assessments-are-not-fair-and-open’.html
> 
> Just can't believe this: two Disabled People's organisations (DPO's) Assist Uk, and Croydon Disability Forum apparently aided ATOS to get the PIP contracts and are to help administer the new PIP assessments, just what is next? , these were/are afaik grassroots organisations, shameful..


 
I fucking knew it..!! As soon as the Sue/Kaliya/Mind blog hit the internet I knew the self appointed greedy bastard charities were colluding in secret to kick out legs out from under us. *those of us who have fucking legs to stand on*

All this pish about making sure the PiP tests are done fair is bollocks and a smoke screen for caving in and possibly even making ££s out of doing these fucking tests in charity centres and offices.

Sue Marsh bouncing all over Twatter "I know something but I can't tell you.. YET" Oh right Sue. You've been picked to let the plebs know that charities are falling in line and actually helping ATOS/Capita/Government with the PIP tests.

Thanks very fucking much for that..!!



treelover said:


> 'The assessments themselves will be carried out by *NHS trusts* and private healthcare providers, rather than Atos assessors, although those carrying out the assessments will be trained by Atos.'
> 
> oh, and look at this, conflicts of interest?



Oh I'm really fucking angry.. The self appointed mouth for the disabled will hear just how angry I am today. 

Since that fucking blog posts came out I'm seeing resignation everywhere that the charities will step in to make the PIP/WCA assessments fair and better. Will they fuck. They should be fighting them..!!


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## treelover (Aug 11, 2012)

Take it easy Frankie, you can't be sure of that yet, lets see what Sue posts on the issue, she is clearly aware of it..

just as angry as you about the co-option of the charities, they are becoming part of the problem not the solution..

these issues around who charities are now for, their(top) employees/own survival or the clients would make a good CIF article.


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## treelover (Aug 11, 2012)

The people who willl be employed to work in various roles will be disabled people who on the whole can work, they will have imo, a jaundiced view of many going through the process, its the same with Smith cunning farming out of Universal credit to Indian Call Centres, to them its scroungers 'getting free money' they will have little sympathy and even less empathy*, this is a hand grenade launched at the heart of the disability movement.

*ignoring Godwins law, this is the sort of nasty very cynical but beautifully constructed policy(principle not of course exact) the Nazis did in the early years of their reign

btw, i will accept that Sue hasn't mentioned this yet, i do wonder why?


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 11, 2012)

I've run the gauntlet of sycophantic followers who canot see a wrong word written about Sue a few times when I've disagreed with her writings treefrog.

Already I've been railed at for 'shooting the messengers' when surely the messengers being such  high profile 'reluctant' activists should have had an idea of the implications of what MIND was trying to do. Why DID MIND let the story break through Sue and Kaliya if not to put friendly faces to the fact that DPOs were working with Atos/Capita/Government on PIP/WCA tests. 

What would have been the reaction if MIND and DPOs had just publicised their involvement?


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I've run the gauntlet of sycophantic followers who canot see a wrong word written about Sue a few times when I've disagreed with her writings treefrog.
> 
> Already I've been railed at for 'shooting the messengers' when surely the messengers being such high profile 'reluctant' activists should have had an idea of the implications of what MIND was trying to do. Why DID MIND let the story break through Sue and Kaliya if not to put friendly faces to the fact that DPOs were working with Atos/Capita/Government on PIP/WCA tests.
> 
> What would have been the reaction if MIND and DPOs had just publicised their involvement?


treelover, treefrog is a different poster Frankie


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

Celt said:


> Well its a funny thing we had been going to book christmas lunch , amd I am really disinclined now.
> 
> Travelling by public transport the other week, I was quite impressed with its accessability, and thinking about stops me thinking pain, I am wondering if there is an "online review this accesible place"


 
Public transport accessibility is still patchy, though, not just in London but everywhere in the UK. Sure, the buses kneel, but over 80% of tube stations in London are inaccessible using standard accessibility criteria, as are over 75% of train stations in the UK. Yay for what *is* accessible, but as Shania would say, "that don't impress me much". I'm still firmly of the opinion that if we win the lottery, moving to Berlin (over 90% accessibility on all forms of public transport) would enable me to get out and about a fuckload more than living in London does.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> Take it easy Frankie, you can't be sure of that yet, lets see what Sue posts on the issue, she is clearly aware of it..
> 
> just as angry as you about the co-option of the charities, they are becoming part of the problem not the solution..
> 
> these issues around who charities are now for, their(top) employees/own survival or the clients would make a good CIF article.


 
Oh come on, for fuck's sake! The co-option of the charities/bending of the charities to government whim became inevitable the moment they bought into Blair's "third sector" bullshit in the early '90s and started tendering for service provision contracts. The conflict of interest between representing people with health issues and providing contracted (rather than internally-provided) services was always going to end up working in favour of government rather than service-user wishes.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Public transport accessibility is still patchy, though, not just in London but everywhere in the UK. Sure, the buses kneel, but over 80% of tube stations in London are inaccessible using standard accessibility criteria, as are over 75% of train stations in the UK. Yay for what *is* accessible, but as Shania would say, "that don't impress me much". I'm still firmly of the opinion that if we win the lottery, moving to Berlin (over 90% accessibility on all forms of public transport) would enable me to get out and about a fuckload more than living in London does.


 
I went to the O2 arena yesterday and there was a tent with dozens of wheelchairs to borrow (but only if you'd bought a ticket for an event), so to just borrow one of the dozens of wheelchairs to go around the bars etc. is a no-no, as it's LOCOG supplying them for a sports event, not for the general public to walk around the 02


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Public transport accessibility is still patchy, though, not just in London but everywhere in the UK. Sure, the buses kneel, but over 80% of tube stations in London are inaccessible using standard accessibility criteria, as are over 75% of train stations in the UK. Yay for what *is* accessible, but as Shania would say, "that don't impress me much". I'm still firmly of the opinion that if we win the lottery, moving to Berlin (over 90% accessibility on all forms of public transport) would enable me to get out and about a fuckload more than living in London does.


NONE of the underground is accessible using the same criteria in Glasgow. No lifts to platforms for one thing - some stations have escalators part of the way but all have at least one flight of stairs down to the platforms. There was a complete overhaul of the system in the late 1970s but no lifts put in, mainly I think due to space constraints in the stations. There's a refurbishment of the network at the moment but that just appears to be making the platforms look pretty.

The local train stations are better but most aren't compliant - and as the trains often stop several inches above the platforms depending on the trains making the stations compliant wouldn't necessarily address the problem.

Buses are better except for the circle routes which still use non-kneeling buses, the only problem being wheelchair spaces being taken up by pram/pushchairs, but I've seen drivers politely ask pushchair owners to move out of the way and ensure the wheelchair user has enough space and is secure and comfortable before moving off. I've also seen ones that haven't, sadly


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I went to the O2 arena yesterday and there was a tent with dozens of wheelchairs to borrow (but only if you'd bought a ticket for an event), so to just borrow one of the dozens of wheelchairs to go around the bars etc. is a no-no, as it's LOCOG supplying them for a sports event, not for the general public to walk around the 02


So why did they have lots of wheelchairs then?


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> treelover, treefrog is a different poster Frankie


Oh dear yes eq.. Apols treefrog and treelover. So many brainfarts the last few days even I'm concerned about it. Last Weds I was convinced it was Thursday all day and yesterday I thought it was Saturday. Was really quite a shock when the realisation set in both times. A few other things as well are making me think either the M.S. is causing my brain to misfire on some cylinders or there's dementia waiting in the wings. Docs this week for me.


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## treelover (Aug 11, 2012)

@VP.

eh, i said it was a problem, fair few on here defend the charities, not me guv...


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> NONE of the underground is accessible using the same criteria in Glasgow. No lifts to platforms for one thing - some stations have escalators part of the way but all have at least one flight of stairs down to the platforms. There was a complete overhaul of the system in the late 1970s but no lifts put in, mainly I think due to space constraints in the stations. There's a refurbishment of the network at the moment but that just appears to be making the platforms look pretty.


 
I used to buy into the "space constraints" reasoning, until I revisited Berlin in 2008, where even with their deep stations, they managed to drop lifts in, and the rolling stock had been designed to be level with the platform edge since the 1930s (east Berlin rolling stock only needed new motors to handle the different voltage used, after reunification. They didn't need to modify much else except the automatic door systems and the handles on the manual door systems to make them fully accessible.



> The local train stations are better but most aren't compliant - and as the trains often stop several inches above the platforms depending on the trains making the stations compliant wouldn't necessarily address the problem.


 
The trains used on the S-Bahn lines in Berlin got round this really easily - a self levelling mechanism so that each carriage adujusts itself to the platform height before the doors open. Takes all of 3-5 seconds. They then introduced a policy of minimising platform height differences between stations as part of their renovations policy, which meant that as each station got tarted up, the platforms got skimmed or built up accordingly, so they're all within about 22mm tolerance, which means less hard work for the self-levelling system, slightly shorter stop times, and happier passengers. 

The big deal is having a transport body that does more than worry about the here and now. In London we've got TfL, I'm not sure who administrates your public transport. Berlin has Berliner Verkehrsbetreibe (BVG) and Verkehrsverbund Berin-Brandenburg (VBB) fulfilling that role, and they're very hot on making sure that the system is easy, cheap and convenient to use.



> Buses are better except for the circle routes which still use non-kneeling buses, the only problem being wheelchair spaces being taken up by pram/pushchairs, but I've seen drivers politely ask pushchair owners to move out of the way and ensure the wheelchair user has enough space and is secure and comfortable before moving off. I've also seen ones that haven't, sadly


 
I'm fucked on London buses, because they're all rear-engined and mostly auto transmissions now, which means that gear changes are snatchy and cause the entire bus to jerk, which doesn't do me any favours pain-wise. Routemasters were much better, excluding the large step up onto the platform, but they're gone now.


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Oh dear yes eq.. Apols treefrog and treelover. So many brainfarts the last few days even I'm concerned about it. Last Weds I was convinced it was Thursday all day and yesterday I thought it was Saturday. Was really quite a shock when the realisation set in both times. A few other things as well are making me think either the M.S. is causing my brain to misfire on some cylinders or there's dementia waiting in the wings. Docs this week for me.


Last week I woke up on Thursday thinking for ages it was Friday. When I realised it wasn't I was gutted. I've also started , well, 'losing some of my words' is the best description I can come up with. Yesterday my brain produced 'quicklier' instead 'quickest' and I'm getting words in sentences mixed up more - think Spoonerisms but less amusing  Also I'm noticing a lot more missing words and mispellings on my urban posts than usual 

I'm suspecting one of the meds playing a part - more pain so more painkillers recently - so I'm going to read the leaflets then talk to my GP about it. I'm due a medicine review I think anyway soon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> So why did they have lots of wheelchairs then?


 
For spectators who have paid to see an event

It's alright though, I managed to get one eventually


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I used to buy into the "space constraints" reasoning, until I revisited Berlin in 2008, where even with their deep stations, they managed to drop lifts in, and the rolling stock had been designed to be level with the platform edge since the 1930s (east Berlin rolling stock only needed new motors to handle the different voltage used, after reunification. They didn't need to modify much else except the automatic door systems and the handles on the manual door systems to make them fully accessible.


 
The problem with the Glasgow underground is that most of the stations were island platforms with steps at one end stretching the width if the platform and a fire escape (in most cases the former original entrance to the platform) at the other. There's nowhere to drop a lift shaft down. Some stations - the bigger interchanges like Partick, Govan, Hillhead and Buchanan Street were turned into two platform stations so those in theory would have room for a liftshaft.


ViolentPanda said:


> The trains used on the S-Bahn lines in Berlin got round this really easily - a self levelling mechanism so that each carriage adujusts itself to the platform height before the doors open. Takes all of 3-5 seconds. They then introduced a policy of minimising platform height differences between stations as part of their renovations policy, which meant that as each station got tarted up, the platforms got skimmed or built up accordingly, so they're all within about 22mm tolerance, which means less hard work for the self-levelling system, slightly shorter stop times, and happier passengers.


I don't know why there isn't similar here in Scotland. Very sensible policy.



ViolentPanda said:


> The big deal is having a transport body that does more than worry about the here and now. In London we've got TfL, I'm not sure who administrates your public transport. Berlin has Berliner Verkehrsbetreibe (BVG) and Verkehrsverbund Berin-Brandenburg (VBB) fulfilling that role, and they're very hot on making sure that the system is easy, cheap and convenient to use.


Strathclyde Passenger Transport used to oversee all transport within the Strathclyde passenger area, including the ferries (I know the local Renfrew - Yoker ferry isn't compliant, it's a tiny little thing with a drop down ramp to get on/off, certainly not wide enough for a wheelchair and unsteady for most people on crutches or sticks), the buses got put out to tender and are now run by the mighty first bus and a couple of local companies on the outside glasgow routes. Used to have more say back in the 1970s when they reopened the Argyle line.


ViolentPanda said:


> I'm fucked on London buses, because they're all rear-engined and mostly auto transmissions now, which means that gear changes are snatchy and cause the entire bus to jerk, which doesn't do me any favours pain-wise. Routemasters were much better, excluding the large step up onto the platform, but they're gone now.


I'm ok on the newer buses mostly, but very dependent on drivers slowing down gently rather than sharply. Have been slammed into uprights on a couple of occasions and gotten banged up a bit but nothing serious luckily.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Last week I woke up on Thursday thinking for ages it was Friday. When I realised it wasn't I was gutted. I've also started , well, 'losing some of my words' is the best description I can come up with. Yesterday my brain produced 'quicklier' instead 'quickest' and I'm getting words in sentences mixed up more - think Spoonerisms but less amusing  Also I'm noticing a lot more missing words and mispellings on my urban posts than usual
> 
> I'm suspecting one of the meds playing a part - more pain so more painkillers recently - so I'm going to read the leaflets then talk to my GP about it. I'm due a medicine review I think anyway soon.


Ah yes.. I read all of the above you've written. I can't blame meds though as I only take Brufen mostly and keep all the others I have for when shit gets too much/unbearable. 

So unless there's a conspiracy to shut me up through spiking my Brufen.. I think I may be on the way to the doolallies..


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Ah yes.. I read all of the above you've written. I can't blame meds though as I only take Brufen mostly and keep all the others I have for when shit gets too much/unbearable.
> 
> So unless there's a conspiracy to shut me up through spiking my Brufen.. I think I may be on the way to the doolallies..


Well if it's not the meds, me and you can get doolally together - what fun we shall have


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 11, 2012)

Just to be sure... This is Saturday yes..? Last night I couldn't understand why the Saturday TV listings I had up online wouldn't match what was actually on the tellybox even though it blatantly said 'tomorrows listings'


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just to be sure... This is Saturday yes..? Last night I couldn't understand why the Saturday TV listings I had up online wouldn't match what was actually on the tellybox even though it blatantly said 'tomorrows listings'


It is Saturday, I think, else I've missed work for a whole day


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## Celt (Aug 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Public transport accessibility is still patchy, though, not just in London but everywhere in the UK. Sure, the buses kneel, but over 80% of tube stations in London are inaccessible using standard accessibility criteria, as are over 75% of train stations in the UK. Yay for what *is* accessible, but as Shania would say, "that don't impress me much". I'm still firmly of the opinion that if we win the lottery, moving to Berlin (over 90% accessibility on all forms of public transport) would enable me to get out and about a fuckload more than living in London does.


 
i did bus and train,  I felt very vulnerable on the bus, and my foot (my bad foot) was stood on a few times, but I got from A to B,  For train I was given every assistance by guards etc.  seats still to short and just enough leg room.  However I know stations are another matter, I do remember being in London and the underground being really difficult.

I too have an unchecked lottery ticket


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 11, 2012)

treelover said:


> The people who willl be employed to work in various roles will be disabled people who on the whole can work, they will have imo, a jaundiced view of many going through the process, its the same with Smith cunning farming out of Universal credit to Indian Call Centres, to them its scroungers 'getting free money' they will have little sympathy and even less empathy*, this is a hand grenade launched at the heart of the disability movement.
> 
> *ignoring Godwins law, this is the sort of nasty very cynical but beautifully constructed policy(principle not of course exact) the Nazis did in the early years of their reign
> 
> btw, i will accept that Sue hasn't mentioned this yet, i do wonder why?


 
Slight derail, but is that true, that Universal Credit claims & enquiries will be handled by Indian call centres? Jesus.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Slight derail, but is that true, that Universal Credit claims & enquiries will be handled by Indian call centres? Jesus.


 
Blimey


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Slight derail, but is that true, that Universal Credit claims & enquiries will be handled by Indian call centres? Jesus.


There are not enough facepalms in the world.


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## Libertad (Aug 12, 2012)

Filling in my ESA50 now as I've found out that sending it in "signed for" will make no difference to them saying that they've received it in time iyswim. Got to be in by the 17th so it looks like an all-nighter.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Filling in my ESA50 now as I've found out that sending it in "signed for" will make no difference to them saying that they've received it in time iyswim. Got to be in by the 17th so it looks like an all-nighter.


Yes, but then you have proof that they're lying if they deny receiving it, and I'm sure the Tribunal service wouldn't appreciate them lying.


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## Libertad (Aug 12, 2012)

True dat


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## Celt (Aug 13, 2012)

Good luck with that Libertad.


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## WouldBe (Aug 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> manning these centres with disabled people, investigating and involved in basically cutting benefit of other disabled people maybe some even forced there on workfare has massive implications.


 Oh, please, please, pretty please force me on to that work placement. Suddenly every one will be terminally ill and in the support group.


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## WouldBe (Aug 13, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well if it's not the meds, me and you can get doolally together - what fun we shall have


 I'll meet you there. It's happening to me as well.


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## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

'It's worth looking up the drafts for UC. It will be horrific.
The idea is that UC will replace everything except housing/council tax benefits, which local authorities will provide - and they can do whatever they like. Pay a bit, pay a lot, whatever.
The principle is that to claim UC you must be living on less than the value of 35 hours/week at minimum wage, just over £200 - any more than that and you can't claim. There will be extra allowances for certain groups, like the disabled or parents. It's a financial cut-off and the full benefit will probably be about £130.
Whatever your circumstances, you will have make a "claimant commitment" to search for work which will raise you above the claim threshold. So if you have a part-time job and caring responsibilities, you still have to prove that you are looking for more or better-paid work.
Single parents will have to do this when their children are as young as one year old; if they do find work, they can only get 70% of the chilcare paid for. If they refuse to take a different job, sanction.
If a cleaner on minimum wage gets 10 hours a week, they have to prove they are looking for work as they need another 25 hours to meet the threshold. An accountant who does 10 hours at £20/hour might not be compelled to look for more work, but still get the child elements or whatever.
People who are supposed to be looking for work while claiming and working will have to sign up with a programme - so if you drop the kids off at school, spend the morning cleaning in a care home, you might have to spend the afternoon at A4E proving that you're jobsearching.
The conditions for the sick and disabled are pretty draconian - as if they weren't bad enough - and all claimants of ESA who are unfit for work (according to Atos and DWP) but fit for some unspecified work related activity will be on the Work Programme immediately. Mandatory and indefinite as now, but with extra graded sanctions, so that failure to comply will result in progressively more benefit being removed.
It's pretty obvious that the aim is to have all claimants of any benefit (except the Support Group of ESA) to be in the Work Programme irrespective of circumstances. That's everyone from 16 to 68, even if they are actually working, engaged in some sort of workfare or other.
The guidelines talk a lot about compliance, refusals, sanctions - and refer to claimants as "stock".
Have a look at johnnyvoid for a good breakdown of the drafts.
Add to this the fact that the default method for claiming is online - real-time processing of pay, NI, tax, benefits, with information for the whole household the claimant lives with, being done by outsourced firms in India; all that information, including health problems etc., bank details, going into a system which doesn't seem to have many safeguards in place. People who can't get online will have to do all this over the phone - with jobcentres closing, I'm not sure how that can happen for the homeless, etc.
@Gerbetticus is absolutely correct - it's going to be horrific.'


Someone on CIF(Ephemerid) has posted an analysis (on whats known) about universal credit, he says it is horrific, i think he is right..


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## spirals (Aug 13, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> I'll meet you there. It's happening to me as well.


 
Me too, we could really mess them up if we could all remember what we were doing!


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'It's worth looking up the drafts for UC. It will be horrific.
> The idea is that UC will replace everything except housing/council tax benefits, which local authorities will provide - and they can do whatever they like. Pay a bit, pay a lot, whatever.
> The principle is that to claim UC you must be living on less than the value of 35 hours/week at minimum wage, just over £200 - any more than that and you can't claim. There will be extra allowances for certain groups, like the disabled or parents. It's a financial cut-off and the full benefit will probably be about £130.
> Whatever your circumstances, you will have make a "claimant commitment" to search for work which will raise you above the claim threshold. So if you have a part-time job and caring responsibilities, you still have to prove that you are looking for more or better-paid work.
> ...


 
Jesus.

If HB's being phased out though, why bother with the bedroom tax (misnomer I know, but it's what people refer to it as), and why bother migrating people from IB to ESA if they're both being replaced by universal credit. Obviously, these things are being done out of bloody mindedness but even then, how can they justify the admin costs?


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## Libertad (Aug 13, 2012)

Form finished and in the 5pm post, proof of postage receipt filed.

And breath...


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## ericjarvis (Aug 13, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Jesus.
> 
> If HB's being phased out though, why bother with the bedroom tax (misnomer I know, but it's what people refer to it as), and why bother migrating people from IB to ESA if they're both being replaced by universal credit. Obviously, these things are being done out of bloody mindedness but even then, how can they justify the admin costs?


 
The admin cost is what it's all about. Remember these policies are about taking public money spent on administering benefits and turning it into public money given to private companies that make large donations to political party funds.


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## treelover (Aug 13, 2012)

Dreadful Dispatches Doc about dole scroungers' on at 8 pm, ch4


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## Celt (Aug 13, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Form finished and in the 5pm post, proof of postage receipt filed.
> 
> And breath...


 
well done, now be a little good to yourself.


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## Libertad (Aug 13, 2012)

Celt said:


> well done, now be a little good to yourself.


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## Greebo (Aug 13, 2012)

Celt said:


> well done, now be a little good to yourself.


Bread and roses (or whatever else makes your life worth living, instead of merely keeping you alive) FTW.


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## WouldBe (Aug 14, 2012)

treelover said:


> Dreadful Dispatches Doc about dole scroungers' on at 8 pm, ch4


 Actually I thought it was good. It shows just how incompetant the DWP really are.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 14, 2012)

Misleading headline that had people enraged turns out to be a whack job on JC+ instead. I was grinning like the Cheshire Cat by the end of it.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well if it's not the meds, me and you can get doolally together - what fun we shall have





WouldBe said:


> I'll meet you there. It's happening to me as well.





spirals said:


> Me too, we could really mess them up if we could all remember what we were doing!


Welcome to the Doolally club. 
Yep Spirals. We could be quite a force to contend with. At something...


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## audiotech (Aug 14, 2012)

The disturbing truth about disability assessments.


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## treelover (Aug 15, 2012)

http://diaryofabenefitscrounger.blogspot.co.uk/

Great blog post by Sue Marsh on the ESA, especially the add on about addictions...

'Today, I will be submitting a FOI request, asking exactly how many people are immediately found "fit for work" without a face to face assessment, based solely on the information they provided on their ESA 50 and what their conditions were.'

she is on the case now, thank God for these activists..


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 16, 2012)

Atos Healthcare: Requests engagement with Disability Rights Groups on Personal Independence Payment (PIP)


> As we announced last week, we have been selected as one of the regional partners by the Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) to deliver assessments for those claiming the new Personal Independence Payment (PIP) benefit, which replaces Disability Living Allowance (DLA) in April 2013.
> We are currently speaking to a number of Disability Rights Groups to understand their views on how we as a provider can make our part in the process work effectively. We are also asking their advice on which communication channels we should use when PIP is underway to make sure that those people seeking PIP support are fully informed. We recognise that there is a wide range of disabilities that PIP will support and we are keen to speak to a cross representation of groups so that everyone’s view is considered.
> We are interested in building strong relationships with a small group of organisations who can coordinate views and work closely with us. If your organisation has not yet been contacted by us and would like to be part of this process, please let us know by using the Contact Us form on our website. You will be contacted by a member of the PIP team over the next few days.



Shall we contact them as the Urban75 'You Fucking Think So' group.


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## treelover (Aug 16, 2012)

Sickening, Orwellian in its cynicism and masking of its true nature, PIP is designed to cut benefits, no DPO's should be working with them , i wonder what Alf Morris would have thought...


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## caravankev (Aug 16, 2012)

I just found some interesting stuff about Atos at the afteratos.com. website. See below, what fun.
DATA PROTECTION ?
I received an unsolicited letter dated “May 2012” and headed Medical Services, under this it states “Provided on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions”, it is signed, Brian Pepper, National Customer Relations Manager, Atos Healthcare. There was also a 2nd class pre paid envelope addressed to Jobcentre Plus, Belfast, though I haven’t quite yet worked out why.
Brian has selected me at random and is interested in my views and so has also sent me a questionnaire to help improve Atos’s services, my answers will be treated in the “strictest confidence”. And for the benefit of my security, Brian assures me that no one will know that it was me that ticked those boxes, not the DWP, and “Nobody from Atos Healthcare” Brian assures me further “Whether you take part or not, it will not affect any entitlement to benefit, or any dealings you have with DWP or any other Government Department.” Brian is so at pains to obtain my views that his employers have hired an “Independent research agency” to process and then send it back to Brian “in an entirely anonymous format”.
Brian has obviously thought this through.
If I “require any help completing the survey, or have any special needs” Brian has arranged a special help line, “01454 200009” for the randomly selected.
The only address is at the bottom of the page under “Atos Healthcare providing medical services on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions” and “Registered Office: 4 Triton Square, Regents Place, London NW1 3HG – VAT NO, GB 232327983”. Brian is probably ex directory for security reasons as he didn’t put a phone number other than the help line, nor an e-mail address or web site.
And why should he when the responsibility of security in this matter has now been contracted out to
“Wyman Dillon – Independent Market Research Agency”
It is my experience that cowboys will usually employ other cowboys otherwise how would Atos have such a lucrative contract to produce publicly paid for incompetence in the first place.
Be fair, “Wyman Dillon” only needs “Marshall” added to it or am I a mite cynical?
We continue,
“£100 of Marks and Spencer Vouchers!!!.
Nobody from Atos Healthcare, or the Department for Work and Pensions, will know who has completed the questionnaire or received the prize. We will only ever reveal your identity to them if you specifically ask us to do so.”
Then,
“We will enter you into a prize draw during the month in which we receive your questionnaire. We will randomly select a questionnaire each month and forward the prize directly to you if you are the winner.”
As I am poor I could do with £100, even in vouchers and nobody would know, not even DWP so they couldn’t stop any benefits or treat it as paid work, could they?. I doubt the DWP even know that Brian’s using stationary with their name on it. Brian say’s it should take no more than ten minutes to fill in the questionnaire and Atos’s records will show I can sit for longer than that.
And I’ve never been offered a rollover chance of being randomly picked before.
Brian and Wyman Dillon seem to have sorted the security and presumably the Data Protection legalities and even Marks and Spencer’s get a bit of advertising in there. Don’t know if they have to pay for it but I really could do with some new jeans.
All I have to do is fill in the form and give my name and address to Wyman Dillon in case I win so that he can send me my prize.
That would be the same name and address that is on the envelope containing the covering letter that Brian sent me that also contains my name and address that due to security or data protection reasons he didn’t Trust Wyman Dillon with even though Wyman Dillon trusted Brian enough to pop his company’s material offering me a chance to win a prize by filling in the Atos Healthcare Questionnaire and posting it in the pre paid envelope addressed to Wyman Dillon Research, Medical Services Customer Survey, FREEPOST (BS7607), Bristol, BS35 3YA that was all in the envelope that Brian sent me.
Now I’m beginning to admire Brian cos he knows when to bail out.
But it troubles me that he doesn’t seem too keen on trusting Wyman Dillon with my name and address but if Wyman Dillon don’t have it, how will they post the £100 of M&S vouchers should I win.
It’s an enigma.
I’m beginning to wish Brian had randomly selected some other poor sod.
There is no deadline so I decide to sleep on it.
To be continued……….
"


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 16, 2012)

caravankev said:


> I just found some interesting stuff about Atos at the afteratos.com. website. See below, what fun.
> DATA PROTECTION ?
> <snip>
> "


 

Can you post a link for that caravankev? It's all rather confusing.

ETA I've found it. Still a very confusing post in the original. Wyman Dillon are a Market Research company. Regardless of their £100 M&S voucher I'd throw the survey in the bin. Especially when it concerns Atos.


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## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

A similar offer was made asking people to discuss their finances around DLA for pre PIP evaluation, plenty of people rather naively then volunteered lots of info on how they spend their DLA, etc, some on such necessary things like 'emotional freedom technique(bodytalk)


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## Quartz (Aug 17, 2012)

Not seen this mentioned: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19244639



> *Auditors have found "weaknesses" in the contract between the government and Atos, the private firm paid to carry out fit-to-work medical assessments.*
> ...
> The National Audit Office said the DWP had failed to penalise Atos for "under-performance", and had not set "sufficiently challenging" targets.


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 17, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Not seen this mentioned: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19244639


Saw that late/early this morning. Need more coffee before brain and body fire up.

Seems to me that Atos who do the test and DWP who make the decision based on Atos recommendations are colluding in disability denial. Tribunals look at the patient, medical evidence and disability law and make a legal decision that the patient has had their disability denied.

The test is nothing morew than a UNUM disability denial exercise and most who take that decision to legal ajudication win their appeal.

The whole test and decision making process shoulds go before the law and scrutinised. Just like UNUM were in the US for using similar methods to deny their claimants insurance.

Hope that makes sense. I'm in a fairly thick fog this morning.


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## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

This is significant news, but without an effective opposition to challenge it in Parliament it won't have that much effect, has the LP put a P/R out?, I know it was a LP MP, Tom Greatrex, who has also called for a welfare debate on the 4th Sept, who called in the NAO, but Liam Byrne attacking it, not a chance...


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## yardbird (Aug 17, 2012)

Radio5 is running the story each news bulletin.


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## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

btw, the MOJ 'how to appeal' video is on Sue Marsh's blog site atm, is there a way of saving it with some sort of you tube downloader?


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## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

btw


yardbird said:


> Radio5 is running the story each news bulletin.


 
Good, is the BBC news channel?

the evening news are the most important...


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## Frankie Jack (Aug 17, 2012)

treelover said:


> btw, the MOJ 'how to appeal' video is on Sue Marsh's blog site atm, is there a way of saving it with some sort of you tube downloader?


I had one of those programs but it stopped working and I can't find which one it was to re download it. I'll ask my son. He knows all those thingy programs.


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## treelover (Aug 17, 2012)

Nothing on 'World At One'...


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## yardbird (Aug 17, 2012)

It's a slow news day, I reckon it's just getting used as a filler


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## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2012)

yardbird said:


> It's a slow news day, I reckon it's just getting used as a filler


Well it wasn't news to me, but then I work in contracts. 

A contract should ideally be balanced towards to all parties. So if company A does a job for company B, if the contract is completed ahead of schedule there's a bonus paid to company A but if the contract is completed late, company B gets penalty payments (a refund, essentially).

Not what Atos have got, this cosy little number where they can do a shit job, killing people from stress in the process, and not have to pay a penny back when the appeals go through by the truckload.


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## treelover (Aug 18, 2012)

'The company has conducted about 738,000 medical tests on benefit claimants in the past financial year'
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/17/nao-criticises-atos-benefits-contract


That's one heck of a lot of 'assessments' in one year....


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## Libertad (Aug 18, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'The company has conducted about 738,000 medical tests on benefit claimants in the past financial year'
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/aug/17/nao-criticises-atos-benefits-contract
> 
> 
> That's one heck of a lot of 'assessments' in one year....


 
That's £135.50 per assessment if the contract is worth £100m pa. ATOS are losing money surely? I hope so.


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## WouldBe (Aug 18, 2012)

Libertad said:


> That's £135.50 per assessment if the contract is worth £100m pa. ATOS are losing money surely? I hope so.


 My assessment lasted 20 minutes. They can do 3 per hour. So thats about £400 per hour. They won't be paying the "medical experts" anywhere near that.


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## equationgirl (Aug 18, 2012)

Appeals are costing £60m per year on top of the £112m paid to Atos on the last year - £60m to correct the mistakes made by Atos. If that's factored in to the cost of each assessment, it comes out as £172m/738,000 = £233.06 per assessment. Assuming 3 per hour is £699.18 per hour, per assessor. 

The scandal is the length of these assessments - how can a reasonable, let alone accurate, judgement of a person's medical condition be formed in such a short time.


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## culder (Aug 19, 2012)

Just seen this -

http://www.ukuncut.org.uk/blog/the-closing-atos-ceremony


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## treelover (Aug 19, 2012)

hope they get the numbers, still a 'minority' interest..


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## WouldBe (Aug 19, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Appeals are costing £60m per year on top of the £112m paid to Atos on the last year


Yeah but the £60 million doesn't come out of ATOS' budget the DWP pay for the appeals. So it wouldn't matter if everyone appealed and everyone won, ATOS still gets it's money. 



> The scandal is the length of these assessments - how can a reasonable, let alone accurate, judgement of a person's medical condition be formed in such a short time.


 They can't.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 19, 2012)

Well, I got home last night to find a limited capability for work form keeping the doormat company. I'm mildly disgruntled about that because my Incapacity was awarded til October, so I'm being migrated early - That's if I even pass the medical. Which I'm quite resigned to not doing - I'll still have a bash, make a decent fist of it but I can't help feeling this is going to be bathtime for Benjy.


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got home last night to find a limited capability for work form keeping the doormat company. I'm mildly disgruntled about that because my Incapacity was awarded til October, so I'm being migrated early - That's if I even pass the medical. Which I'm quite resigned to not doing - I'll still have a bash, make a decent fist of it but I can't help feeling this is going to be bathtime for Benjy.


If you need any help, start a conversation asking people to join. I'm more than happy to help 

I think they're targeting a lot of people who've just been awarded IB, easier than trying to overturn a longstanding award (although that's not stopping them either).


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 19, 2012)

I've been on IB since 2004, eqg, so  it's not really a recent award. Thanks for offering to help  , I may take you up on that, though ATM I'm 3/4 of the way down a 3 bot of frosty jack's, so we'll leave that for now til I'm in a better state.  I'm actually alright at filling in forms, I've got a few mates who have, in the past, asked me to do their PCA forms for incapacity & I always got a result - This ESA is uncharted waters though. I'm on the sick for mental health plus substance issues & I'm not under a psychiatrist (ooer), so I am in the target group for being latered off the sick. Which is why I'm not exactly resigned to, but prepared for being given the golden boot from the sick. I didn't end up subscribing to benefits & work but what I did do was pay a tenner to just get the ESA guides, though being a bit shit with computers, I can't print them off , and I do find paper a lot easier to deal with than screens - Me sister's going to sort that for me though.


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've been on IB since 2004, eqg, so it's not really a recent award. Thanks for offering to help  , I may take you up on that, though ATM I'm 3/4 of the way down a 3 bot of frosty jack's, so we'll leave that for now til I'm in a better state. I'm actually alright at filling in forms, I've got a few mates who have, in the past, asked me to do their PCA forms for incapacity & I always got a result - This ESA is uncharted waters though. I'm on the sick for mental health plus substance issues & I'm not under a psychiatrist (ooer), so I am in the target group for being latered off the sick. Which is why I'm not exactly resigned to, but prepared for being given the golden boot from the sick. I didn't end up subscribing to benefits & work but what I did do was pay a tenner to just get the ESA guides, though being a bit shit with computers, I can't print them off , and I do find paper a lot easier to deal with than screens - Me sister's going to sort that for me though.


One thing to watch out for is that the ESA isn't geared up for mental health incapacity, only physical incapacity. Don't forget to make a list of all the meds you're on - if you would like me look up the side effects, just let me know.


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## Libertad (Aug 19, 2012)

It's a real pain in the arse Frances but having filled in two of these ESA's I found it helped to fill them out once in rough and then do the job for real. When you fill it out though change the pen you're using after one or two of the sections. This will help reinforce the idea that you didn't sit down and fill it in all in one go. (The logic being that you could not sit down for three hours in one place, concentrate for the duration of the form filling etc.)
Not good to feel that you're 'playing the system' but they're such sneaky bastards that you have to use anything you can to try and sway things back in your favour.

Good luck with it though, try and get it sent off in good time and get proof of postage.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 19, 2012)

Cheers Libertad, yeah I always do a rough copy first. That's a decent tip with the changing of pens. I've got no scruples about feeling like I'm playing the system though - Way I see it is the system assumes everyone's out for what they can get, so it's not really about what's actually wrong with you, it's about making yourself appear to fit eligibility criteria. Which is a bit fucked up coz genuine claimants think well, I've paid my stamp all my life, now I'm in a time of need I'll claim what is my due - Which is completely the wrong approach, you do have to approach the whole gig like you're grafting them.


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## Libertad (Aug 19, 2012)

True dat.


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2012)

Libertad said:


> It's a real pain in the arse Frances but having filled in two of these ESA's I found it helped to fill them out once in rough and then do the job for real. When you fill it out though change the pen you're using after one or two of the sections. This will help reinforce the idea that you didn't sit down and fill it in all in one go. (The logic being that you could not sit down for three hours in one place, concentrate for the duration of the form filling etc.)
> Not good to feel that you're 'playing the system' but they're such sneaky bastards that you have to use anything you can to try and sway things back in your favour.
> 
> Good luck with it though, try and get it sent off in good time and get proof of postage.


Not just proof of postage, proof of receipt at their end. The last thing you want after spending days filling out the wretched thing is for them to lose or deny all receipt of it. It's using their system against them again to give yourself a fighting chance.

I really like that tip about the pens, good one


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2012)

Saying that about the pens though, it's all just ticking boxes, so it's unlikely any actual human being will be on hand to clock the change of pen.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got home last night to find a limited capability for work form keeping the doormat company. I'm mildly disgruntled about that because my Incapacity was awarded til October, so I'm being migrated early - That's if I even pass the medical. Which I'm quite resigned to not doing - I'll still have a bash, make a decent fist of it but I can't help feeling this is going to be bathtime for Benjy.


 
Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Saying that about the pens though, it's all just ticking boxes, so it's unlikely any actual human being will be on hand to clock the change of pen.


 
You could always say though that you're too skint to buy a new pen


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it?


 
I thought this thread was supposed to be about solidarity - *Takes the fuckin huff*

Nah jesus Minnie, have I ever been sly on you?


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You could always say though that you're too skint to buy a new pen


 
That's not funny either.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I thought this thread was supposed to be about solidarity - *Takes the fuckin huff*
> 
> Nah jesus Minnie, have I ever been sly on you?


 
If it's any consolation, at least you knew it was going to be October.  Friend's last award was indefinite, so I'm pissed about the "indefinite" came so fast


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## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

'Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it? '


If people have say, cognitive issues, then a month is not long enough, they have removed any option for requests for extensions, only after the fact decisions...


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## Greebo (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> <snip>If people have say, cognitive issues, then a month is not long enough, they have removed any option for requests for extensions, only after the fact decisions...


Particularly when what you can or can't do doesn't quite fit any of the available tickbox options.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it? '


 
That's what I said.  Frances wasn't happy


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it? '
> 
> 
> If people have say, cognitive issues, then a month is not long enough, they have removed any option for requests for extensions, only after the fact decisions...


Really! No extensions now?

ETA.. I have been advising people who don't yet have their call up to WCA to gather info and specialist reports from YESTERDAY anyway.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's what I said. Frances wasn't happy


 
Soz, I was a bit over sensitive there.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Soz, I was a bit over sensitive there.


 
Not to worry


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Well if you've been awarded 'til October, and they give you a month to fill form in, it's not really that early is it? '
> 
> 
> If people have say, cognitive issues, then a month is not long enough, they have removed any option for requests for extensions, only after the fact decisions...


 
Yes, it is early - When I got my last award letter it said something along the lines of Dear Mr Wankerchops, due to the nature of your illness, you do not have to attend a medical and your benefits will next be reviewed in October 2012 - It's not even September yet, and the form's got to be in by the 18th of Sep, so that, by any definition, is early. The dirty gets are sniding me out of a months worth of IB. I know ATOS have done a lot worse to a lot of other people, but this is _me_ we're talking about - I'm sure when viewed in that light you'll understand why I feel so aggrieved.


----------



## treelover (Aug 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Really! No extensions now?
> 
> ETA.. I have been advising people who don't yet have their call up to WCA to gather info and specialist reports from YESTERDAY anyway.


 

I can see that, but some people won't be called for another year, any medical support, etc could be out of date by then, but overall yes..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 20, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yes, it is early - When I got my last award letter it said something along the lines of Dear Mr Wankerchops, due to the nature of your illness, you do not have to attend a medical and your benefits will next be reviewed in October 2012 - It's not even September yet, and the form's got to be in by the 18th of Sep, so that, by any definition, is early. The dirty gets are sniding me out of a months worth of IB. I know ATOS have done a lot worse to a lot of other people, but this is _me_ we're talking about - I'm sure when viewed in that light you'll understand why I feel so aggrieved.


 
I understand that perfectly, and it's disgusting that they now only give you a month to fill it in.

I did last DLA form in November 2010, and it was first time indefinite award was made.  I hoped it meant no forms to fill in for at least a couple of years, but noooooooooooooo


----------



## Libertad (Aug 21, 2012)

If you want a laugh then here's the ATOS Customer Charter:

http://www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/our_customer_charter


----------



## Libertad (Aug 21, 2012)

If you want something to make you scream with anger then here's a Health Professional with Bipolar Disorder attending their WCA:

http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> If you want something to make you scream with anger then here's a Health Professional with Bipolar Disorder attending their WCA:
> 
> http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


 

Jesus Christ 



> “OK, so I am Marjorie.” This felt like a better start; at least she’d volunteered her first name.
> 
> “Marjorie…?” enquired M, pen poised.
> 
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> If you want a laugh then here's the ATOS Customer Charter:
> http://www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/our_customer_charter


I trust that less than a fox in a henhouse.


Libertad said:


> If you want something to make you scream with anger then here's a Health Professional with Bipolar Disorder attending their WCA<snip>


FFS! I no longer get angry about things like that because if I did, I'd be angry every waking moment.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> I can see that, but some people won't be called for another year, any medical support, etc could be out of date by then, but overall yes..


 Yet ATOS are quite happy to take an 8 year old MRI scan into account.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> I can see that, but some people won't be called for another year, any medical support, etc could be out of date by then, but overall yes..


Those medical pros providing reports, like my physio nurse, my Outreach nurse etc are not happy with ATOS - someone is going to have to pay for this service?


----------



## Libertad (Aug 21, 2012)

My practice manager wants £70 a letter.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> My practice manager wants £70 a letter.


 
You what?!!


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2012)

I am thinking of going to the NHS Ombudsman about all this, clearly medical evidence is now a prequisite for a successful outcome, if you are denied that or have to pay exhortionate fees than something is wrong..


----------



## yardbird (Aug 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> I am thinking of going to the NHS Ombudsman about all this, clearly medical evidence is now a prequisite for a successful outcome, if you are denied that or have to pay exhortionate fees than something is wrong..


If you have to pay _any _fees then something is wrong!


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> My practice manager wants £70 a letter.


 FFS . If you're in Brixton I can recommend a GP.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 21, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> FFS . If you're in Brixton I can recommend a GP.


 
Not any longer.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> If you want something to make you scream with anger then here's a Health Professional with Bipolar Disorder attending their WCA:
> 
> http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


 According to the benefitsandwork site it's not illegal to make a covert recording and it's admissible as evidence at your appeal. They advise you to submit the recording and a transcript well before the appeal, at the time when you first communicate your disagreement with the decision or unhappiness with the medical. I can get chapter and verse if anyone's interested. I can also lend a covert video camera and/or audio recorder. If the examiner spots the equipment they can stop the medical. I don't suppose you would lose your right to another medical, but it could delay the whole process considerably. And your card would be marked, so you'd need to get ATOS to make an official recording of the next medical, which could delay things by many more moons.


----------



## treelover (Aug 21, 2012)

Still hard to believe that Steve Cram, who still calls himself a socialist, is an ATOS ambassador to the para-olympics...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

treelover said:


> Still hard to believe that Steve Cram, who still calls himself a socialist, is an ATOS ambassador to the para-olympics...


 
Isn't it quite possible (and probable) that many many people aren't aware of what exactly ATOS are up to?  It's not like the assessments have been widely publicised by the press


----------



## Mephitic (Aug 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Isn't it quite possible (and probable) that many many people aren't aware of what exactly ATOS are up to? It's not like the assessments have been widely publicised by the press


 
For sure, i wouldnt know what ATOS were doing if i hadn't read about it on this forum, however it does appear that DPAC were contacting Cram about their concerns some time ago, check the dates on the comments​​EDIT: *I'm a bit gutted actually, i had held Cram in high regard & recently posted his pic in the my sporting heroes thread.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

Mephitic said:


> For sure, i wouldnt know what ATOS were doing if i hadn't read about it on this forum, however it does appear that DPAC were contacting Cram about their concerns some time ago, check the dates on the comments​


 
Oh 



> Bearing in mind the increasingly voluble and angry voices of disabled people and their allies, we wonder if being an ambassador to Atos is worth the disappointment of the public and loss of the reputation you would have built over the years.


 
I doubt a few disabled people pissed off with him is going to make him bother about his reputation


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> My practice manager wants £70 a letter.


i was shocked yesterday at a friend being charged £15. but £70?? that's ridiculous.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 21, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> i was shocked yesterday at a friend being charged £15. but £70?? that's ridiculous.


 
Varies from surgery to surgery, unfortunately, and there's no established upper ceiling, IIRC.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Varies from surgery to surgery, unfortunately, and there's no established upper ceiling, IIRC.


 

Seems to me that's something that needs to be addressed as that's outrageous

Friend's doctor used to charge £10 for a letter to go on holiday with listing his meds which we were happy to pay, but if he tried to charge £70, I'd change surgeries immediately


----------



## Libertad (Aug 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Seems to me that's something that needs to be addressed as that's outrageous
> 
> Friend's doctor used to charge £10 for a letter to go on holiday with listing his meds which we were happy to pay, but if he tried to charge £70, I'd change surgeries immediately


 
Not as easy as that in a small rural community though. We have a 'progressive' surgery where the partners have decided to embrace the 'market opportunities' made available to them.
Everything has a price now. Here Serco rules.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Not as easy as that in a small rural community though. We have a 'progressive' surgery where the partners have decided to embrace the 'market opportunities' made available to them.
> Everything has a price now. Here Serco rules.


 
'progressive' as in makes them progressively richer?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 21, 2012)

Socialist Worker:



> Action against ATOS





> Trade unionists: Time to send only one email this week? Send a solidarity message to DPAC for their actions against ATOS mail@dpac.uk.net
> The protests against Atos, headed by Disabled People Against Cuts, (DPAC), could be a real highlight as the Paralympics begins.
> As well as the big day in London on Friday 31 August, there are lots of other protests across Britain, most on 28 August.
> So far we know of ones in Birmingham, Manchester, Plymouth, Swansea, Lancaster, Liverpool, Bournemouth, Cardiff, Northampton, Sheffield and Southampton. There are details at www.dpac.uk.net
> ...


 
http://www.dpac.uk.net/


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Seems to me that's something that needs to be addressed as that's outrageous
> 
> Friend's doctor used to charge £10 for a letter to go on holiday with listing his meds which we were happy to pay, but if he tried to charge £70, I'd change surgeries immediately


 
TBF my doc didn't charge anything for the letter listing my meds, but that's because Greebo and I wrote it out in English, German and French, printed it, and I just got the doc to sign it. Mind you, if she'd asked for a tenner, I would have paid.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 22, 2012)

treelover said:


> I am thinking of going to the NHS Ombudsman about all this, clearly medical evidence is now a prequisite for a successful outcome, if you are denied that or have to pay exhortionate fees than something is wrong..


 Just get a copy of your notes using a data protection act request. The max they can charge you is £10. Scan the relevant pages, black out the bits you don't want ATOS / DWP to see, print out and send in


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 22, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I can get chapter and verse if anyone's interested.


Yes please as I have a covert recording of my ATOS medical.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF my doc didn't charge anything for the letter listing my meds, but that's because Greebo and I wrote it out in English, German and French, printed it, and I just got the doc to sign it. Mind you, if she'd asked for a tenner, I would have paid.


 
Shouldn't have paid him really considering how poorly laid-out and the misspellings in it


----------



## treelover (Aug 22, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Just get a copy of your notes using a data protection act request. The max they can charge you is £10. Scan the relevant pages, black out the bits you don't want ATOS / DWP to see, print out and send in


 
my notes will be massive, its a long time!


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Update on Proposed New WCA Descriptors (EBR) 
Call me cynical, but, another leak to Sue and Kaliya posted on their blogs. No actual links to legitimate new proposals and seemingly a week to guage reaction to them.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Update on Proposed New WCA Descriptors (EBR)
> Call me cynical, but, another leak to Sue and Kaliya posted on their blogs. No actual links to legitimate new proposals and seemingly a week to guage reaction to them.


 
Interesting, although not sure how this would work




> Has significant difficulty navigating around unfamiliar surroundings, without being accompanied by another person, due to sensory impairment


 
for someone with memory loss. I still wouldn't be able to tick any of the boxes


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Learning a new task is much better than old question


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Tasks is interesting



> [5] Tasks to be defined/ examples given
> 
> [6] Note: As an initial indicator of the level of tasks, provisional definitions of tasks could include toe following (will need further work and consultation with Mencap):
> 
> ...


 
No improvement there for people with a brain injury.  They might have used a broom before injury but never have used a photocopier so therefore unable to learn how to do it.  Even if they hadn't used a broom, it's a lot easier than knowing how to put the paper the right way up in the photocopier and pressing the correct button and dealing with paper jams and loading paper


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Still seems very generalised to me and so far responders are finding their ilness/disability is still not addressed, like you pointed out minnie.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Tasks is interesting
> 
> 
> 
> No improvement there for people with a brain injury. They might have used a broom before injury but never have used a photocopier so therefore unable to learn how to do it. Even if they hadn't used a broom, it's a lot easier than knowing how to put the paper the right way up in the photocopier and pressing the correct button and dealing with paper jams and loading paper


Now isn't that a VERY work orientated question............


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Now isn't that a VERY work orientated question............


 
Unlike, "can you set an alarm clock", without specifying whether it was a digital one or not


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Soooo, it covers ability to be a cleaner, an office gofor and a shelf stacker.  Great news for those who may have been university professors or aeronaugtics engineers pre brain injury.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Soooo, it covers ability to be a cleaner, an office gofor and a shelf stacker.  Great news for those who may have been university professors or aeronaugtics engineers pre brain injury.


 
That's assuming they don't also have difficulty walking


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's assuming they don't also have difficulty walking


It's all a fecking farce minnie. Just rearranging/changing and adding words to make a vile concoction taste sweeter. The more minds are focussed on amendments the less on getting rid of the WCA. I'm putting all my effort and thought into The Scottish Governments decision to oppose the WRA and the fight for Independence from Westminster bastards completely. 

I'll clear out the spare room and cellar for all who may wish to flee here..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> It's all a fecking farce minnie. Just rearranging/changing and adding words to make a vile concoction taste sweeter. The more minds are focussed on amendments the less on getting rid of the WCA. I'm putting all my effort and thought into The Scottish Governments decision to oppose the WRA and the fight for Independence from Westminster bastards completely.
> 
> I'll clear out the spare room and cellar for all who may wish to flee here..


 
Would love to, but the Scottish weather doesn't agree with me


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would love to, but the Scottish weather doesn't agree with me


Me neither......and I live here *sigh*


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 22, 2012)

Apropos of nothing, here's something from the benefitsandwork forum which may interest people: there are certain medical conditions for which ATOS will use a doctor for your medical. For DLA medicals they seem to be contractually obliged to do this, for WCA ones they might just be following their own internal procedures. The list of conditions has not been made public but it includes TIA (aka mini stroke), MS, CFS/ME, musculoskeletal problems and dyspraxia. So maybe the rule is anything neurological, perhaps because non-doctors have difficulty assessing the claimant or understanding the documents they bring with them.

I had a doctor for my WCA medical the other day - I sailed into the support group with ease, despite being found fit for work on two previous occasions. The doctor read the letters from my GP and specialists and the care plan I brought with me and just made up her mind. After that she skipped the physical exam and lots of the questions. Didn't even ask me whether I could set an alarm! The only 'trap' questions I got were the ones about transport to the medical and what I get up to during the day. She made a point of saying how helpful the documents were. She seemed to be getting lots of the input for the LIMA software from the documents instead of talking to me.

Here's a tip - work out what your GP's letter needs to say, then give him or her a draft of it when you see them. Worked for me - my GP is always pushed for time and just wanted to get it done fast. If the letter says the right things it's pure fucking GOLD and can be used to accompany no end of claim forms. Attach it to everything, whether you are asked to or not.

e2a. Pls let me know if there's anything iffy about this post. Started new meds yesterday and my head is swimming


----------



## Greebo (Aug 22, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would love to, but the Scottish weather doesn't agree with me


Same as.  And it'd suit VP even less, so that's us well and truly stuffed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 22, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Same as. And it'd suit VP even less, so that's us well and truly stuffed.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 22, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Same as. And it'd suit VP even less, so that's us well and truly stuffed.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 22, 2012)

equationgirl said:


>


It's summer, for the moment it's dry, and no brown envelope has arrived here yet.  That'll do for now.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 22, 2012)

WouldBe asked for the benefitsandwork spiel on covert recording, so I've been scouring the site.

Note that if you want a recording (and IMO it's a terrible risk not to have one) a covert one may be your only option, as the DWP has just recently said there are not enough machines to meet all requests for recordings. They also said that unavailability of a machine is not a good enough reason to delay a medical. In other words you do not have a right to an ATOS-made recording. If you insist on delaying your medical until a machine is available your claim could be cancelled. Full story here http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefits-news/story/694

A benefitsandwork member reported that he asked ATOS to make a recording but didn't find out he wasn't getting one until his medical started and he realised there was no machine or technician in the room. In those circumstances you can't refuse to continue without risking the cancellation of your benefit. So you might want to equip yourself to make a covert recording just in case.

Even if ATOS does make a recording for you there have been instances of the machine being switched off and on during the medical, the microphone not picking up what's said during the physical examination while you are at the back of the room on the couch, and ATOS taking several months to send you a copy of the recording, hence holding up your appeal.

The DWP used to say that making your own recording is illegal. The benefitsandwork bloke (a barrister/benefits advisor I think) disputed this and the DWP took legal advice and backed down, in writing.

Since then there has been no published case of a claimant submitting their own recording at a tribunal. So the benefitsandwork people have come up with theoretical advice which has not been tested. This is what they say:

"we believe that the practice is legal provided claimants follow one golden rule: _make the recording for your own use only. _In other words, do not play the recording to other people or publish it on the internet. If you make a recording and you wish subsequently to use it as part of a complaint to the DWP or as part of the appeals process, then send the relevant office a transcript of the pertinent part of the tape. If someone, a tribunal chair for example, then asks for a copy of the recording then it is fine to send it them, but in no other circumstances should you play it or pass it on to other people. You should certainly not do so simply to embarrass or attack the DWP, if you wish to be certain that your actions are lawful."​ 
One of the benefitsandwork subscribers asked what to do with his secret recording a couple of months ago: 

"I am helping my brother with his ESA appeal. He took a secret recording device into the ATOS medical with him. The Atos report totally ignores his reply for one section of the medical and thus no points were awarded for this section , which resulted in him failing. I will type up a transcript of what he actually said for this particular part of the medical and put the pertinent part of the tape on a CD as well of the beginning of the tape where the ATOS doctor introduces himself by name.​​Has anyone else presented this type of info to a Tribunial before? I would imagine most people have been recording their ATOS so called medicals for sometime now as it is so easy to do and ATOS have such a bad reputation."​​This was the answer from the resident expert:​​"As of the current date, I am not aware of anybody presenting "recorded" evidence of their medical to a Tribunal, that is not to say that it hasn't happened, just that I have not seen it reported anywhere.​​As there is no precedent for the inclusion of this type of evidence, I can only advise on what I believe will be required.​​So I would expect you, in order for Natural Justice to be seen to be done, to have to provide the whole recording rather than edited excerpts, to allow the DWP to rebutt any comments that might be made.​​Anything you want the panel to look at needs to have been transcribed in advance and made available to all parties (through the Tribunal Service), I think it unlikely in the extreme that the panel will listen to the the tape on the day of the hearing.​​The DWP may challenge the admissability of this evidence, whether it is accepted or not is at the discretion of the panel, although you can argue that in the cause of Natural Justice, that it should be accepted.​​You need to be aware that the DWP will be entitled to use their own "excerpts" to prove a point in exactly the same way as your brother intends, this may be to his disadvantage.​​Remember, the court is more interested in whether your brother meets the ESA criteria, than looking at why the DWP and ATOS say he doesn't, so don't ignore this aspect of his case and don't be surprised if the Tribunal are not overly interested in looking at your additional evidence."​


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 23, 2012)




----------



## toggle (Aug 23, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> WouldBe asked for the benefitsandwork spiel on covert recording, so I've been scouring the site.
> 
> Note that if you want a recording (and IMO it's a terrible risk not to have one) a covert one may be your only option, as the DWP has just recently said there are not enough machines to meet all requests for recordings. They also said that unavailability of a machine is not a good enough reason to delay a medical. In other words you do not have a right to an ATOS-made recording. If you insist on delaying your medical until a machine is available your claim could be cancelled. Full story here http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/benefits-news/story/694
> 
> ...


 
are they asking for a full transcription, as in every word written down, or a descriptive transcription. the wording seems to be suggesting a full transcription is what is necessaty. which unless you're experienced at doing them, can be a full day's work for a 40 min interview.for someone who can sit at a computer all day.

i'll also add that any set of notes taken during an interview can be invaluable in helping with transcribing, particularly if you are unable to transcribe yourself and need someone else to do this for you.if you ahve someone else transcribe who wasn't at the interview, then go through the transcription to correct any misinterpretations. i've done interview transcriptions in other circumstances, so i could potentially do one occasionally if someone dosen't have anyone else to ask.

if you do decide to get a digital recorder, test it to make sure it can pick up in whatever bag you will carry it into the interview in. and make sure you have one that has a usb port on it. a lot have no way to remove the files straight off them. and if you are going to provide copies if using them as evidence, then having the ability to place files onto a disk straight off the recorder is pretty much essential.i do happen to have one of these, i can potentially lend this. it's not a cheap piece of kit and i need it, so i can only lend it to someone i already know or someone that someone i know can vouch for.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 24, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Apropos of nothing, here's something from the benefitsandwork forum which may interest people: there are certain medical conditions for which ATOS will use a doctor for your medical. For DLA medicals they seem to be contractually obliged to do this, for WCA ones they might just be following their own internal procedures. The list of conditions has not been made public but it includes TIA (aka mini stroke), MS, CFS/ME, musculoskeletal problems and dyspraxia. So maybe the rule is anything neurological, perhaps because non-doctors have difficulty assessing the claimant or understanding the documents they bring with them.


Is there any mention of which DWP rule/ document that quote comes from?

My neuro-symptoms were assessed by a nurse.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Is there any mention of which DWP rule/ document that quote comes from?
> 
> My neuro-symptoms were assessed by a nurse.


I've come across that before - it's on the DWP website I think. Let me see if I can find it again...


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 24, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Is there any mention of which DWP rule/ document that quote comes from?


 
Which quote do you mean?


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 24, 2012)

toggle said:


> are they asking for a full transcription, as in every word written down, or a descriptive transcription.


 
There's no more information about that. Given that it's for a legal tribunal it's safest to assume that the transcription has to meet whatever standards the courts normally require.  I don't know what they are. But I could ask at the benefitsandwork forum if you like.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Here's the first two paragraphs - I haven't been able read any further as anecdotal evidence reported on this and other sites has already indicated these statements not to be followed or true in practice:
> 
> "This training has been produced as part of a training programme for Health Care Professionals approved or appointed by the Department for Work and Pensions Chief Medical Adviser to carry out benefit assessment work.
> 
> ...


 
Here it is, WouldBe - it's from the DWP training manual.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 24, 2012)

saw this in the news today:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19370200


> The government contractor Atos Healthcare has said it will review all the correspondence it sends to people claiming sickness benefits.
> The announcement follows a "mistaken comment" in a letter - seen by BBC News - to a claimant with depression.
> Atos incorrectly told the claimant that assessors were not required to be specifically trained in mental health.
> The private firm said it would ensure that its letters were "clear and easy to understand" in future.
> ...


 
"mental function champions"?


----------



## toggle (Aug 24, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> There's no more information about that. Given that it's for a legal tribunal it's safest to assume that the transcription has to meet whatever standards the courts normally require. I don't know what they are. But I could ask at the benefitsandwork forum if you like.


 
how have atos provided recordings been used?

i would have thought tribunals would accept that a disabled person with limited capacity and resources might have difficulty providing a full transcript. but that would be the best.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 24, 2012)

I've just been scratching my head about that too Tufty. Bafflespeak if you ask me.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 24, 2012)

and this.. 
http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/...sessment-than-medical-history-or-examination/


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 24, 2012)

toggle said:


> how have atos provided recordings been used?


 
Nobody knows. No documented cases published yet.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 24, 2012)

toggle said:


> a disabled person with limited capacity and resources might have difficulty providing a full transcript


 
They can't even be expected to fill in the claim forms without falling into a trap! But that's just the way it is. I don't see how anyone who's not 100% can get the benefits they're entitled to unless they have an intelligent helper who signs up to benefitsandwork and treats every form as if it were an exam paper.


----------



## toggle (Aug 24, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Nobody knows. No documented cases published yet.


 

nods.

I'll go with what i've said above then, if anyone needs a full trasncription of an interview and is unable to do one, i'm prepared to do the occasional transcription for them. for the record, i have sat through an appeal hearing.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Is there any mention of which DWP rule/ document that quote comes from?
> 
> My neuro-symptoms were assessed by a nurse.


 

Wonder if brain damage could come under TIA?


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 24, 2012)

I wonder if it would make sense to write to ATOS and ask for a doctor to do your medical? I'll ask at the benefitsandwork forum.

e2a: someone over there said: i had to see a doctor because i had a RTA i know if you,ve had a head injury you do have to see a doctor.

I also found this: In a Written Answer on 14 November 2011, Lord Freud (Minister for Welfare Reform at the Department for Work and Pensions), replied:

The Government’s contract with Atos Healthcare requires that doctors are used to assess claimants with conditions that are likely to have complex central nervous system examination findings.

The majority of claimants with CFS/ME do not exhibit such signs and therefore CFS/ME is not on the list of conditions that are required to be assessed by a doctor. However, if a claimant with CFS/ME has neurological signs, they will be passed to a healthcare professional with the requisite expertise.



So it seems that what you need (to qualify for a doctor) is "complex" neurological probs. Dunno hoiw you define complex. Maybe you could write to Atos asking for a doctor and attach a letter from a GP or specialist with the word "complex" in it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I wonder if it would make sense to write to ATOS and ask for a doctor to do your medical? I'll ask at the benefitsandwork forum.


 
Well whenever I get the phone call, I'm going to ask 1) for it to be recorded and 2) for someone experienced in brain injury to be in on the assessment


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> I wonder if it would make sense to write to ATOS and ask for a doctor to do your medical? I'll ask at the benefitsandwork forum.
> 
> e2a: someone over there said: i had to see a doctor because i had a RTA i know if you,ve had a head injury you do have to see a doctor.
> 
> ...


The DWP has a list of evidence it will accept and who from, for each medical condition - choose the condition then look for 'sources of evidence' on the left hand side:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/
There's also a website with the most recent decision maker's guides for each benefit - might be useful 
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/decision-makers-guide/#vol10


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

Nothing for traumatic brain injury, hypoxia or brain ischaemia etc.  

Might be better off looking under dementia


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

I have two conditions on that list and frankly it's not worth the paper it's written on, as the Atos assessor and the DWP decision maker, clearly in my case, dismissed or ignored the conditions affecting me on a daily 24/7 basis. That left me no option but to appeal.

Oh and to update. My concerns expressed in correspondence, which I highlighted in a letter to my MP, that was passed onto the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, received a response, a copy of which was forwarded to me. The only significant bit worth mentioning was Grayling's mention of Professor Harrington's review, but apart from that it was standard fayre.

Nevertheless, I feel that the 103 suicides attributed to Atos/DWP and the 32 deaths per week of those dying not long after having being found "fit for work", that I did raise concerns about in my letter, are now seared permanently on Grayling's brain.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I have two conditions on that list and frankly it's not worth the paper it's written on, as the Atos assessor and the DWP decision maker, clearly in my case, dismissed or ignored the conditions affecting me on a daily 24/7 basis. That left me no option but to appeal.
> 
> Oh and to update. My concerns expressed in correspondence, which I highlighted in a letter to my MP, that was passed onto the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, received a response, a copy of which was forwarded to me. The only significant bit worth mentioning was Grayling's mention of Professor Harrington's review, but apart from that it was standard fayre.


 
Standard template letter they said out to all complainants probably


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Standard template letter they said out to all complainants probably


 
See edit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Nevertheless, I feel that the 103 suicides attributed to Atos/DWP and the 32 deaths per week of those dying not long after having being found "fit for work" I did raise concerns about in my letter are now seared permanently on Grayling's brain.


 
It would be nice wouldn't it, but somehow, I really don't think he'd give a toss


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wonder if brain damage could come under TIA?


It came under head injury, where there was quite a lot of info..

If the decision makers aren't following their own guidance, in my opinion that would be grounds for appeal.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Despite the impression given, even Grayling has a conscience and when he's alone in the dark pondering those figures it will be pricked, given the proviso that he's not a psychopath. Grayling did look rattled to me trying to defend his Department recently and him quoting Cameron was telling.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It came under head injury, where there was quite a lot of info..
> ​


​​​​Ah, found a bit listing memory disorders


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Despite the impression given, even Grayling has a conscience and when he's alone in the dark pondering those figures it will be pricked, given the proviso that he's not a psychopath. Grayling did look rattled to me trying to defend his Department recently and him quoting Cameron was telling.


 
I doubt he'll lose too much sleep over it.  Will probably blame ATOS/Cameron/Anyone but himself


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

His karmic payback will be horrendous


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> His karmic payback will be horrendous


 
Some people just plod along with loads of luck in their lives.  Knowing our luck, he'll be one of them.  Just to rub our noses in it, he'll probably live to 150 years old as well


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I doubt he'll lose too much sleep over it. Will probably blame ATOS/Cameron/Anyone but himself


 
The fact that he's doing just that (putting the onus on Cameron and his "tough love" newspeak) speaks volumes and suggests that even Grayling himself has concerns. Whether purely for his own sake is academic, but it's there nonetheless.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The fact that he's doing just that (putting the onus on Cameron and his "tough love" newspeak) speaks volumes and suggests that even Grayling himself has concerns. Whether purely for his own sake is academic, but it's there nonetheless.


 
If he was that concerned, he'd stand down or do something about it - sharpish


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Harrington's latest review out yet?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Harrington's latest review out yet?


 
Don't know.  Haven't been keeping up with stuff.  Trying to avoid it to avoid the stress of thinking about it 

He's stood down now hasn't he (or rather, got rid of)?  Not sure about latest review and/or recommendations


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 24, 2012)

Harrington report expected Early October I think.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Harrington's latest review out yet?


No, but there's a call for evidence just been released:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-year-3-call-for-evidence.pdf

I haven't checked any deadlines in it but they're looking for individuals to tell them about WCA experiences.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Harrington report expected Early October I think.


 
but how long would it take for any recommendations to be implemented?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

It's open until 7th September, if anybody wants to contribute.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> but how long would it take for any recommendations to be implemented?


 


> As an Independent Review, the Secretary of State is not required to accept any or all of the recommendations, and any recommendations may be subject to further assessment by DWP.


 
May be never, Minnie.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

> How to respond to this call for evidence
> Please send your responses or queries to:
> Email: wca.evidence@dwp.gsi.gov.uk
> Post: WCA Independent Review Team, Floor 2, Section B, Caxton House, Tothill Street, London, SW1H 9NA.
> ...


 


> The first call for evidence obtained a vast amount of evidence about the fairness and effectiveness of the process; the second call for evidence was more focused, asking questions about specific conditions. This year’s call for evidence has been designed with the claimant’s experiences in mind and tries to establish if there have been improvements following my recommendations. I ask you to reflect back on a WCA that you may have had in the past and compare it to your most recent WCA experience.
> I am particularly interested in three areas of the WCA process – communications, the face to face assessment and the decision making process.


 
Second quote from open letter to claimants by Harrington.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Harrington stood down. He has completed two reviews and in the review published in November 2011 Harrington, according to the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, "confirmed that the WCA remains the right process". There will be a publication of a third review later this year.

Reading between the lines, it appears that not all of the recommendations in the second of Harrington's reviews were accepted, so what's the point of a third you need to ask yourself, particularly now that Harrington has 'stood down'?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Harrington stood down. He has completed two reviews and in the review published in November 2011 Harrington, according to the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, "confirmed that the WCA remains the right process". There will be a publication of a third review later this year.
> 
> Reading between the lines, it appears that not all of the recommendations in the second of Harrington's reviews were accepted, so what's the point of a third you need to ask yourself, particularly now that Harrington has 'stood down'?


 
Yes, stood down because they apparently wanted a "fresh pair of eyes".  Probably a more agreeable fresh pair of eyes


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

The second paragraph of my above post can be used to bombard your MP.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Harrington stood down. He has completed two reviews and in the review published in November 2011 Harrington, according to the Minister, Chris Grayling MP, "confirmed that the WCA remains the right process". There will be a publication of a third review later this year.
> 
> Reading between the lines, it appears that not all of the recommendations in the second of Harrington's reviews were accepted, so what's the point of a third you need to ask yourself, particularly now that Harrington has 'stood down'?


I'm assuming this is a legally mandated process and the government has to carry it out. I wonder who will replace him? A government sockpuppet no doubt...


----------



## audiotech (Aug 24, 2012)

Think, if everyone took a sockpuppet with them to their WCA claiming it to be their advocate here to take notes, then what?


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 24, 2012)

I have my medical assesment with ATOS next week, i am on incapcity benefit & have not received a questionnaire ESA50 form with my appointment letter, so i am scared that they will stop my money! I am a genuine claimant, i have no idea how i am going to live & eat if they stop my money!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Mindles$ said:


> I have my medical assesment with ATOS next week, i am on incapcity benefit & have not received a questionnaire ESA50 form with my appointment letter, so i am scared that they will stop my money! I am a genuine claimant, i have no idea how i am going to live & eat if they stop my money!


I thought you weren't supposed to have the WCA until the form had been completed...

Can you phone them on Monday and ask about getting a form? I just don't see how you can be assesssed otherwise - you've given them no information!

Get together as much information as you can, if you have it from previous forms.


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I thought you weren't supposed to have the WCA until the form had been completed...
> 
> Can you phone them on Monday and ask about getting a form? I just don't see how you can be assesssed otherwise - you've given them no information!
> 
> Get together as much information as you can, if you have it from previous forms.


 
There is no mention of the questionnaire on my appointment letter!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Mindles$ said:


> There is no mention of the questionnaire on my appointment letter!


You need to phone them and ask where your form is - as I understand it you're not supposed to have the assessment until you've completed the form.

If possible, can you delay the assessment?

This link clearly states that the assessment comes after the questionnaire has been returned.

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/MoneyTa...CreditsAndOtherSupport/Illorinjured/DG_172012


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 24, 2012)

Thank you, I will call them on monday...bugger it is bank holiday & my appointment is on tuesday afternoon!


----------



## spirals (Aug 24, 2012)

For what it's worth at my medical I asked who would be seeing me and was told a physiotherapist. I pointed out that M.E. is down as a nuerological condition by the world health organisation and said I was pretty sure a doc should be doing my assessment under atos's own published guidelines. I said I was happy to see the physiotherapist if they had experience of dealing with people with complex issues and they said they would check with head office. Ten mins later my assessment was with a doc. Being clued up does help!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2012)

Mindles$ said:


> Thank you, I will call them on monday...bugger it is bank holiday & my appointment is on tuesday afternoon!


You could try phoning them tomorrow - they seem to work on Saturdays.


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You could try phoning them tomorrow - they seem to work on Saturdays.


 
Thank you so much for this information, i shall let you know how i get on!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wonder if brain damage could come under TIA?


TIA is "transient ischaemic attack". Himself's condition might be classifiable as that if it was caused by bleeds that had no other underlying cause such as impact trauma.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 25, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> TIA is "transient ischaemic attack". Himself's condition might be classifiable as that if it was caused by bleeds that had no other underlying cause such as impact trauma.


 
No, he didn't have that, but I was just struggling to find something *they *might decide to use instead as hypoxia/ischaemia wasn't available.


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You could try phoning them tomorrow - they seem to work on Saturdays.


 
Hi

I rang from a phonebox this morning, i got cut off twice by their automated system while waiting to speak to somebody, after an hour i spoke to an advisor who said that i nonly need attend the medical as some people automatically bypass the system & go straight onto ESA - first i have heard of this, i have been stressing about coming off incapacity benefit for nearly a year!

Thanks for your advice. Much appreciated.


----------



## Quartz (Aug 25, 2012)

Don't let the buggers grind you down.


----------



## treelover (Aug 25, 2012)

tufty79 said:


> saw this in the news today:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-19370200
> 
> 
> "mental function champions"?


 
This is very clever of them, these people will be 'zealots' or happy to get paid and will police the system so no 'fraudsters' get past, but of course, many 'genuine ' claimants will fail and ATOS, etc will point to their 'champions' input, etc..


----------



## treelover (Aug 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It's open until 7th September, if anybody wants to contribute.


 

How many weeks is that then?, not very long for very sick people/people with cognitive issues, etc who want to contribute...

btw, there were over 550 submissions to the initial Welfare Reform Act White Paper under NL and Hutton and Murphy, majority very critical, etc, all were ignored..


----------



## treelover (Aug 25, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The second paragraph of my above post can be used to bombard your MP.


 
already done it, social care being 'reconfigured(cut) as well...


----------



## treelover (Aug 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm assuming this is a legally mandated process and the government has to carry it out. I wonder who will replace him? A government sockpuppet no doubt...
> 
> View attachment 22402View attachment 22403View attachment 22405


 
Sock puppets are benign, nice and fun, Tory/NL Placemen/Women are not...


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2012)

Mindles$ said:


> There is no mention of the questionnaire on my appointment letter!


 The regulations state that the health care professional is to read the ESA50 before commencing the WCA. They are going to find that a bit hard if they don't have a ESA50 to read.


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> The regulations state that the health care professional is to read the ESA50 before commencing the WCA. They are going to find that a bit hard if they don't have a ESA50 to read.


 
I do believe i am going straight into the support group *finger's crossed*


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2012)

Mindles$ said:


> I do believe i am going straight into the support group *finger's crossed*


 I would have thought the DWP could have made that decision without you having to see ATOS. 

Hope all goes well for you.


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2012)

'just re-read my medical assessment notes and I'm getting MAD!!
*- it mentions that I couldn't fill in a questionnaire due to my mental health, but that I was questioned "IN DETAIL" by the healthcare professional.... 
The interview started at 10.03, ended 10.21 and took Miss Julie Simpson (registered nurse) until 10.26 to complete my report....
It stipulates I can brush my teeth, therefore I can learn new tasks.
It states I attended with a support worker (Student Social Worker) but that I am fine to get about alone? ARRRRGGGGHHHHHH'*


from FB, INCREDIBLE...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'just re-read my medical assessment notes and I'm getting MAD!!
> *- it mentions that I couldn't fill in a questionnaire due to my mental health, but that I was questioned "IN DETAIL" by the healthcare professional.... *
> *The interview started at 10.03, ended 10.21 and took Miss Julie Simpson (registered nurse) until 10.26 to complete my report....*
> *It stipulates I can brush my teeth, therefore I can learn new tasks.*
> ...


18 minutes to conduct a 'thorough' assessment plus 5 minutes for the assessor to complete the paperwork. Abysmal.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 27, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'just re-read my medical assessment notes and I'm getting MAD!!<snip>
> 
> from FB, INCREDIBLE...


Incredible if you've had no experience of the system.  That type of report has all the lack of accuracy which some of VP's DLA medicals had.


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2012)

''When David Cameron attends next week's Paralympics, no doubt smugly grinning from ear to ear as he celebrates this showcasing of disabled athletic talent, he deserves to be met with cries of "shame". He leads a government that is systematically attacking the rights of the sick and disabled. Their financial support is being confiscated; their ability to lead independent lives attacked; they are subjected to humiliating tests; they are demonised as "scroungers" and drains on the public purse; and abuse towards them is soaring. Keith Robertson, from the Scottish Disability Equality Forum, is warning that so-called welfare reform is leaving disabled people feeling "suicidal".


http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...crush-them-8082036.html?origin=internalSearch


Fantastic article by Owen Jones on welfare reform, ATOS, etc

Oh, and rumour has it Purnell is back advising the LP...

no mention who created these 'reforms'


----------



## treelover (Aug 27, 2012)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...isabled-anger-paralympic-sponsors?INTCMP=SRCH

Lots of media interest in the Atos Para_olympics protests, Indie, RT, Washington Post, Guardian,


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)




----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'just re-read my medical assessment notes and I'm getting MAD!!
> *- it mentions that I couldn't fill in a questionnaire due to my mental health, but that I was questioned "IN DETAIL" by the healthcare professional.... *
> *The interview started at 10.03, ended 10.21 and took Miss Julie Simpson (registered nurse) until 10.26 to complete my report....*
> *It stipulates I can brush my teeth, therefore I can learn new tasks.*
> ...


 
That's the 2nd time I've seen someone declared able to learn new tasks because they can brush their teeth


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentis...isabled-anger-paralympic-sponsors?INTCMP=SRCH
> 
> Lots of media interest in the Atos Para_olympics protests, Indie, RT, Washington Post, Guardian,


 
BBC mentioned it, but showed a disabled person but didn't show protesters


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

Just read on another forum that a claimant who doesn't get their ESA form in time, is automatically found fit for work, loses all benefit and cannot reclaim for six months or has attended a WCA assessment. this is obscene and is clearly about saving money and intimidation, aihsb, the DWP employed a global management consultancy to work out strategies for cutting benefits, this is definitely one of them.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 28, 2012)

I would have thought that that would be a very good reason for them to appeal.


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

Any reports on the ATOS protests?, there are lots of them across the uk


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

Just came across this on Black Triangle



> I have just been through one of the assessments and was placed on the WRAG (Work Related Activity Group), I “scored” 15 points. As they put me in this group I requested a copy of the “medical” and a copy of the DWP’s “decision maker’s” reason for putting me in this group.
> 
> I received the “medical” assessment and a copy of the DWP’s ” decision maker’s” sheet but it contained no information as to why I was placed in the WRAG. After looking at the “medical” report I found that the doctor (yes, he was a real doctor) suggested that a return to work was not for me was not the thing to do and that I would not get any better over time, so the DWP’s ” decision maker” took it upon themselves to put me in the WRAG. The other problem with their decision is that I qualified for “Pension Credits” last November and I am not required to have these “Work related interviews”, the DWP also need to be challenged about their decisions as I am sure I am not the only person this has happened to.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> Any reports on the ATOS protests?, there are lots of them across the uk


 
Amusing article here from before the protests

http://pcseuston.org.uk/atos-games-week-a-plot-thats-finally-been-uncovered/


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)

Leeds protest.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

Northampton



> 25 – 30 disabled people, trade unions and supporters turned out to protest outside the Atos assessment centre in Northampton at lunch time today. Local disabled people who have had their lives ruined by ATOS’ cruel and flawed Work Capability Assessments shared their stories with local news broadcasters and press. Other disabled people sent messages of support but stayed away through just not being able to face the assessment building that causes them so much dread and misery.  Protesters tried to deliver a gold medal for hypocrisy to Atos but were barred from the building by G4S security guards.


 
Oh well, at least G4S are working somewhere


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

25 people in a small place like that is good, bearing in mind, many many people would be too fearful to attend...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

Blimey.  Sod the £100m the Government are paying for these assessments.  Look how much other work they've got

*Atos holds £3bn of government contracts*

Controversial Paralympic sponsor has won work across Whitehall as well as running work capability assessments

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2...overnment-contracts-paralympics?newsfeed=true


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 28, 2012)

treelover said:


> 25 people in a small place like that is good, bearing in mind, many many people would be too fearful to attend...


 
Especially those who haven't had assessments yet


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 28, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Blimey. Sod the £100m the Government are paying for these assessments. Look how much other work they've got
> 
> *Atos holds £3bn of government contracts*
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 28, 2012)

> *Brother Bee has shared the news on today's protet in Manchester:
> Great Demo outside ATOS Manchester, Lots of speakers, road blocked for 15 -20 minutes and cars coming from both directions just had to turn around, rather than pass..all going well with the blockade, even the Community Police who asked us to move off the road, finally Backed off until the 'Heavy boys in Blue' turned up and moved us back onto the pavements. We even had a singalong parodying Morecambe & Wise "Bring Me Sunshine" as follows:
> 
> Parody of Morecambe and Wise “Bring Me Sunshine”
> ...


----------



## treelover (Aug 28, 2012)

40 on lunchtime event given the nature of being outside a surveillance site is great..

still think its a marginal interest on whats left of the left though..


----------



## treelover (Aug 29, 2012)

Good news, Atos's failings are on the front page of the Independent, i think that's a first


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 29, 2012)

treelover said:


> Good news, Atos's failings are on the front page of the Independent, i think that's a first


 
Besides the Independent and Guardian and a small article in The Mirror, a lot of the other papers seem to be ignoring it though

Now the paralympics start tomorrow, even more of a reason for other papers to maybe bury it somewhere it won't be noticed?


----------



## audiotech (Aug 29, 2012)




----------



## cozmikbrew (Aug 29, 2012)

Had my ATOS medical last week(tuesday)very little questioning bout my physical problem(Sciatica) asked mysupport worker loads,how long shed known me,what she did etc,but in an out in less than half hour,got into a right state waiting for it,waiting room was horrible,one poor lass broke down completely an had to be usherd into a side room,lad next to me only had one lung an that was knackerd!So,the waiting game


----------



## culder (Aug 29, 2012)

Is anyone watching this opening ceremony? Human rights, my arse.


----------



## culder (Aug 29, 2012)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...-cant-be-disabled--they-can-swim-8084638.html


----------



## treelover (Aug 29, 2012)

Newsnight have just covered the issues in the professional and empathetic way they used to on issues like poverty and equality(whats changed?)

protests covered by BBC news tonight,

but not really many on the protests, many  'abled bodied' acitivists/leftists, etc may have to themselves some searching questions?


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 29, 2012)

Mark Littlewood must be destroyed.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 29, 2012)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Mark Littlewood must be destroyed.


For any particular reason, Jeff?


----------



## Celt (Aug 29, 2012)

culder said:


> Is anyone watching this opening ceremony? Human rights, my arse.


 yes, its a fab ceremony but I can't quite get past this.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Aug 29, 2012)

Because he's a slimey, unsympathetic piece of shit and a transmission belt for every government policy that involves trampling society's unproductive scum into the dirt?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 29, 2012)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Because he's a slimey, unsympathetic piece of shit and a transmission belt for every government policy that involves trampling society's unproductive scum into the dirt?


 
That'll do for me, cocker.


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> For any particular reason, Jeff?


 

He is an obscenity, he is the nearest thing we have to a Tea Party headbanger, the way he was talking about DLA being abused and that massive cuts are neccesary and that ''money has to be channeled to make people 'productive'', was grotesque

oh, and the revealing thing is he was a Lib Dem Adviser...


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

cozmikbrew said:


> Had my ATOS medical last week(tuesday)very little questioning bout my physical problem(Sciatica) asked mysupport worker loads,how long shed known me,what she did etc,but in an out in less than half hour,got into a right state waiting for it,waiting room was horrible,one poor lass broke down completely an had to be usherd into a side room,lad next to me only had one lung an that was knackerd!So,the waiting game


 
I know these things have to be known, But i wish you hadn't posted that, its really upset me, its the Victorian age again, it sounds like a description of the workhouse

Actually, thinking about it again, you should write a more detailed account of it and post it all around the blogs, etc..


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

'We have been nudged, most of all, towards a deeper understanding of the word "transformation", as employed so tellingly by Guttmann, whose intention in founding the Stoke Mandeville Games for the Paralysed, he said, was "to transform a severely disabled patient into a taxpayer".'

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/aug/30/paralympic-games-opening-ceremony-britain



On first glance you would think the originator of the first Para-Olympics, the great Ludwig Guttman agrees with that shit Greenwood, but i think he meant engaging with the world, etc, i hope he did anyway...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> On first glance you would think the originator of the first Para-Olympics, the great Ludwig Guttman agrees with that shit Greenwood, but i think he meant engaging with the world, etc, i hope he did anyway...


 
I reckon Cameron has taken it literally

Anyway, a lot of these people were taxpayers before they had accidents/illnesses.  A lot of them who are working and on DLA are still taxpayers


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

lots of pundits starting to quote Guttmann to back their arguments for welfare changes, its a good soundbite now..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> lots of pundits starting to quote Guttmann to back their arguments for welfare changes, its a good soundbite now..


 
idiots


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 30, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> I would have thought the DWP could have made that decision without you having to see ATOS.
> 
> Hope all goes well for you.


 
I know!! I am expecting a decision in the next 2-4 weeks, so we shall see what happen's!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> lots of pundits starting to quote Guttmann to back their arguments for welfare changes, its a good soundbite now..


 
It's such a pity that they're being allowed to get away with quoting Guttmann out-of-context. It's not as if it's difficult to google Guttmann and see the context. Typical _arschloch_ bone-fucking-idle pundits and politicos.


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

T'he rules for sanctions are as follows from Regulation 60 of ESA Regs :

The sanction for failing to comply with work-related requirement provides for the reduction of the WRA component by 50% for four weeks and by 100% for continued failure thereafter.'


The new sanction regime is in place now and claimants are being threatened no matter how sick they are to do a back to work plan, etc, obscene...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

Fleet Street Fox article. Worth a read.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 30, 2012)

Now that pundits are even quoting Guttman (albeit out of context) in order to justify social security reform, can anyone seriously not believe that the amount of fuss being made over the paralympics has a lot to do with making it seem acceptable to kick disabled people off benefits? I know it's a drum I keep banging, but I don't recall this much trumpeting over the last paralympics. And when looked at like that, maybe it's not so ironic that they're being sponsored by ATOS.

Anyway I'm going to have a bash at my ESA form later - At least fill in the name/adress/NI number bits & do some rough drafts of the actuall illness sections, fucker's looking reproachfully at me from the sideboard every time I go in me bedroom.


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Fleet Street Fox article. Worth a read.


 
That's a great article, will bookmark the blog..


----------



## laptop (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> That's a great article, will bookmark the blog..


 
It's consistently good. I'm getting more curious to know who the fox is in real life...


----------



## culder (Aug 30, 2012)

An excellent article!

I've just started a blog - nowhere near as good as that, but if anyone wants to look, it's at culder.blogspot.co.uk (hope that works).

Meanwhile, saw this elsewhere -
*Viz top tip from my friend the Geordie rapper 'Here's an idea... if anyone who is disabled is hauled in to ATOS they should take a picture of Sir Edmund Hilary with them, produce it, and say "Here's what an able bodied person can achieve if they have the will to do so. Off you go... and you can judge ME when you and your board of directors have done it! Good luck... I hear the fatality rate is falling annually."*


----------



## yardbird (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> That's a great article, will bookmark the blog..


Wot treelover says.


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

'Was rather impressed that the GB team all hid their Atos Sponsored Lanyards when they came out.'

Is this the case though, was it a deliberate act?, other countries had theirs inserted in their coats, it's quite important to know...


----------



## treelover (Aug 30, 2012)

oh, and from the comments, 'ken haylock'  we have the ubiquitous 'voice of reason' 

more like the saloon bar...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Was rather impressed that the GB team all hid their Atos Sponsored Lanyards when they came out.'
> 
> Is this the case though, was it a deliberate act?, other countries had theirs inserted in their coats, it's quite important to know...


C4 news asking the same. No idea myself. Didn't watch the opening ceremony.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

laptop said:


> It's consistently good. I'm getting more curious to know who the fox is in real life...


A journalist called Susie Boniface as far as I know laptop.


----------



## cesare (Aug 30, 2012)

S/he does make a point of anonymity on the blog, btw.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

John Pring: On the Paralympics, DLAs, and PIPs
Posted this on Farcebook after reading the comment under the article part of which said.


> Now just suppose if it had been won by a British Disability Organisation who had to carry out
> the assessments on behalf of the DWP. Carrying out he assessments to the criteria as laid down by the DWP.
> Would we now be giving that organisation the same stick as we are giving Atos.


Which made me wonder which DPO would actually have agreed to do the testing knowing the disasterous effect it would have. But wait.... DPOs are going to be doing PIP assesments with ATOS and Capita aren't they..!! Supposedly in order to help make the tests fairer BUT also to share in some of that lovely lolly they'll get paid. Wonder how they'll feel when the protests land at their assessment centres after PIP is implemented and thousands are stripped of benefits.


----------



## culder (Aug 30, 2012)

Could someone please look at my blog? I've never done anything like that before, and I'd like to know what people think. You don't have to read the first post, it's the second one that I started it for, really.

culder.blogspot.co.uk


----------



## laptop (Aug 30, 2012)

cesare said:


> S/he does make a point of anonymity on the blog, btw.


 
Aye - just found an Evening Standard account of her being outed, bitchily, by someone who didn't like a piece about women in the media being bitchy


----------



## cesare (Aug 30, 2012)

laptop said:


> Aye - just found an Evening Standard account of her being outed, bitchily, by someone who didn't like a piece about women in the media being bitchy



You couldn't make it up, really. Good grief.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 30, 2012)

culder said:


> Could someone please look at my blog? I've never done anything like that before, and I'd like to know what people think. You don't have to read the first post, it's the second one that I started it for, really.
> 
> culder.blogspot.co.uk


 
Well yeah, you won't find me arguing with what's said on your blog about the paralympics.


----------



## culder (Aug 30, 2012)

Thanks


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

laptop said:


> Aye - just found an Evening Standard account of her being outed, bitchily, by someone who didn't like a piece about women in the media being bitchy


Wasn't Nicky Clark was it? She does like to have a pop at other 'journalists' at times 

*cough* I did have a small twatter chat with Nicky earlier where she told me I had 'issues' and was 'borderline aggressive' what ever the fuck that means *cough*


----------



## culder (Aug 30, 2012)

Sonia strikes again -

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...disabled-people--protests-accompany-them.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 30, 2012)

culder said:


> Sonia strikes again -
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/a...disabled-people--protests-accompany-them.html


 
and where's the comments?

I'd still like to know whether her articles make it into the hard copy of the paper or whether they're just online? 

Anyone know?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and where's the comments?
> 
> I'd still like to know whether her articles make it into the hard copy of the paper or whether they're just online?
> 
> Anyone know?


Just online AFAIK.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 30, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Just online AFAIK.


 


Keeping her hidden


----------



## culder (Aug 30, 2012)

Ah. That would explain a few things.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> C4 news asking the same. No idea myself. Didn't watch the opening ceremony.


 
Athletes weren't making a protest according to ParaGB officials



> ParalympicsGB officials have denied suggestions that the team staged a deliberate protest against the controversial London 2012 sponsor Atos at Wednesday night's opening ceremony.
> 
> As the team marched around the track to a tumultous reception, several Twitter users noted that none had their lanyards visible.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Was rather impressed that the GB team all hid their Atos Sponsored Lanyards when they came out.'
> 
> Is this the case though, was it a deliberate act?, other countries had theirs inserted in their coats, it's quite important to know...


 
Yep, so unless ParaGB pulled in a load of other countries to protest, I think it's highly unlikely

Apols for Mail pictures






















I think people are so desperate for them to make a protest, they're reading into things that aren't there


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

I read last night they'd tucked the lanyards away because of the wind..... In a fully enclosed stadium


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> I read last night they'd tucked the lanyards away because of the wind..... In a fully enclosed stadium


 
It's enclosed on the sides, not the middle


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2012)

Sorry for slight derail question but does anyone have a link to the blog/site that is listing all the deaths/suicides of people that were in contact with Atos?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

If it was windy enough to need to hide Lanyards surely the high wire acts would have been cancelled.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 31, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Sorry for slight derail question but does anyone have a link to the blog/site that is listing all the deaths/suicides of people that were in contact with Atos?


this one? http://calumslist.org/there's also this thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Aug 31, 2012)

Ta


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Sorry for slight derail question but does anyone have a link to the blog/site that is listing all the deaths/suicides of people that were in contact with Atos?


Most of them are on our thread here and Calums List is here


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

Snap Tufts.. 

ETA.. Just added a new name to our thread this morning.......


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> If it was windy enough to need to hide Lanyards surely the high wire acts would have been cancelled.


 
Nah, he's injured already so I doubt he gave a toss


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

But.. but.. Tanni Gin & Tonic could have been blown off course and landed right on Scammy & co..!!! *wishes*


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> But.. but.. Tanni Gin & Tonic could have been blown off course and landed right on Scammy & co..!!! *wishes*


----------



## Frankie Jack (Aug 31, 2012)

No malice intended towards TanniGT by the way. I'm sure she'd have pulled a magnificent mid air swerve to plant the front wheel right between Scammys eyes


----------



## treelover (Aug 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep, so unless ParaGB pulled in a load of other countries to protest, I think it's highly unlikely
> 
> Apols for Mail pictures
> 
> ...


 
have to say they look amazing. look at those ponchos!


----------



## treelover (Aug 31, 2012)

'Got to be weird being a British Paralympian under this government, knowing that a medal means you'll lose your Disability Living Allowance.'


Frankie Boyle trying to redeem himself, hope he does he could be a formidable opponent of the welfare cuts/reforms/ATOS...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> have to say they look amazing. look at those ponchos!


 
Yeah, you'd have to really look for the lanyards in the first place with all that colour


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> 'Got to be weird being a British Paralympian under this government, knowing that a medal means you'll lose your Disability Living Allowance.'


 
Well not necessarily I hope.  I'd imagine not all of them (ie. those without arms) are able to cook for themselves (although I realise there are people with no arms who do amazing things with their feet, but that doesn't mean all of them do).

I'd imagine that plenty of them still need some help throughout the day.

As for the mobility component, not sure how that'll work, as ATOS would probably say if you're able to run 100m, you're obviously not suffering severe discomfort (despite the fact that some athletes say they're in pain when competing)


----------



## cesare (Sep 1, 2012)

More pics here: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...dpac-presents-the-atos-games-uk.297859/page-4






Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us





Uploaded with ImageShack.us

You can shove your work assessments up your arse.
You can shove your work assessments up your arse.
You can shove your work assessments
You can shove your work assessments
YOU CAN SHOVE YOUR WORK ASSESSMENTS UP YOUR ARSE


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> As for the mobility component, not sure how that'll work, as ATOS would probably say if you're able to run 100m, you're obviously not suffering severe discomfort (despite the fact that some athletes say they're in pain when competing)


Neither the DLA or ESA forms say anything about running. The DWP are very pedantic.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 1, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Neither the DLA or ESA forms say anything about running. The DWP are very pedantic.


 
Good point


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 1, 2012)

Bit of a tip while I remember - If you need to send your ESA form back but don't trust the post and don't want to pay for registered delivery, take it to the job centre, telling them you didn't recieve or have lost the envelope provided and ask them to send it by internal mail (make sure they know where it's supposed to go though) and make sure to get a reciept. I've never known the job centre to refuse to do this.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 1, 2012)

Looks like a great protest, well done everyone


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

[/QUOTE]'m having these problems now. Worked all my life then at 50 get bowel and lung cancer. I got a letter yesterday to say I didn't have enough points from my ATOS so called medical, so my money has been stopped. So now with no money I have to find a job but who is going to employ me?
http://stewcrowther.wordpress.com/Reply 
unbelievable...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> > 'm having these problems now. Worked all my life then at 50 get bowel and lung cancer. I got a letter yesterday to say I didn't have enough points from my ATOS so called medical, so my money has been stopped. So now with no money I have to find a job but who is going to employ me?
> > http://stewcrowther.wordpress.com/Reply
> >
> > unbelievable...
> ...


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 2, 2012)

(think your link needs fixing, treelover - can't find anything to do with the quote on the website)


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm not sure what happens when i post, i can't use the quotes, etc


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> I'm not sure what happens when i post, i can't use the quotes, etc


 
Right. Above the blank post that you type a reply in, there's two rows (top row having font family, font size, smileys etc)

Under that, there's B, I and U (for bold, italics, underline). At the end of that row, there's " for quotes.

When you want to quote something, just click on that and the following appears:

quote thingies



> you paste your quote in here


 
Your cursor will be in the middle of that, and you enter your quote that you copied in there


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Right. Above the blank post that you type a reply in, there's two rows (top row having font family, font size, smileys etc)
> 
> Under that, there's B, I and U (for bold, italics, underline). At the end of that row, there's " for quotes.
> 
> ...


 

Minnie, I know that, the quotes don't work for me when I quote other than something on here, not always here even, haven't for some time


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

worked that time though...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> worked that time though...


 
Maybe you were doing it correctly this time


----------



## Libertad (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> Minnie, I know that, the quotes don't work for me when I quote other than something on here, not always here even, haven't for some time


 
Alternatively you can highlight the web page in the URL box at the top of the browser page and copy it, then in the "new post" box here you just paste it and the board's software automatically recognises it as a link.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> I'm not sure what happens when i post, i can't use the quotes, etc


I've only been able to figure out how to use the quote thingie recently too, took me ages to figure it out.


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe you were doing it correctly this time


 

like i said, its more if i use c/p and then try to quote it..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> like i said, its more if i use c/p and then try to quote it..


 
Very strange


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2012)

treelover said:


> like i said, its more if i use c/p and then try to quote it..


Trying pasting as plain text, perhaps the formatting is playing up.


----------



## treelover (Sep 2, 2012)

ok


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 2, 2012)




----------



## Libertad (Sep 2, 2012)

I appreciate the link Rutita but it's a year out of date.
Afteratos survived and are here:

http://www.afteratos.com/


----------



## Greebo (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I appreciate the link Rutita but it's a year out of date.
> Afteratos survived and are here:
> 
> http://www.afteratos.com/


That's not the only one which was attacked - look what happened to Carerwatch.


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I appreciate the link Rutita but it's a year out of date.
> Afteratos survived and are here:
> 
> http://www.afteratos.com/


 

just read some of the stories in the comments, absolutely obscene, even with the protests, it doesn't seem benefit issues have enough wider support...


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

How soon after ESA form submission can you expect a medical, roughly?


----------



## Libertad (Sep 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> How soon after ESA form submission can you expect a medical, roughly?


 
The post has just arrived and I'm sitting here wondering the same thing, mine went in on 17th August.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 3, 2012)

The same question is being asked everywhere.  Mine was sent in to arrive 20th July.

I did research and heard of people waiting 6 months in some cases


----------



## Celt (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> The post has just arrived and I'm sitting here wondering the same thing, mine went in on 17th August.


 
me to, only it went on the 11th


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> The post has just arrived and I'm sitting here wondering the same thing, mine went in on 17th August.


 

Are you saying you received a date for a medical only two weeks after submission?


----------



## Libertad (Sep 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> Are you saying you received a date for a medical only two weeks after submission?


 
No, I'm saying that every day I dread the arrival of the post with a missive from Atos in it, innit.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> No, I'm saying that every day I dread the arrival of the post with a missive from Atos in it, innit.


 
I dread even answering the phone as well nowadays


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 3, 2012)

Here's one website where people have asked the same question re:  ESA submission and call for assessment

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=1102


----------



## Celt (Sep 3, 2012)

Libertad said:


> No, I'm saying that every day I dread the arrival of the post with a missive from Atos in it, innit.


me too


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 3, 2012)

The government has drawn up plans to withdraw £71 a week from sick and disabled benefit claimants if they fail to take steps to get back into the workplace.

A leaked draft of a Department for Work and Pensions (DWP) template letter warns sick and disabled claimants they will lose 70% of their weekly employment support allowance (ESA) if they refuse to take part in work-related activities, more than doubling the current fine.

The DWP has also told the Guardian that it is finalising plans on whether to make unpaid and unlimited work experience placements part of work-related activity.

At present, those claiming ESA who have also been deemed fit to eventually return to work after controversial health assessments run by the private firm and Paralympic sponsor Atos can only be docked a maximum of £28.15 a week if they break their agreement with their job advisers without "good cause". http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/03/disabled-benefits-claimants-fines-work?CMP=twt_gu


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 3, 2012)

FFS


----------



## Greebo (Sep 3, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> FFS


Word.


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

This will leave people destitute and seeing as very sick people are being put in the WRAG and care is being cut across the Uk, some will die .....

where are the unions, the TUC, the churches, etc?

maybe the new TUC boss, Frances O' Grady will speak out on this, she has run seminars there on welfare..

Oh, and slowly as the money runs out, disabled voices will be silenced on the internet, etc...


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

> The DWP has also told the Guardian that it is finalising plans on whether to make unpaid and unlimited work experience placements part of work-related activity.


 
The DWP has been a rogue dept and out of control and scrutiny for some time...


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> The DWP has been a rogue dept and out of control and scrutiny for some time...


It must be stopped, this will kill people. It is morally reprehensible.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 3, 2012)

I need the monies I get and I'm frightened.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I need the monies I get and I'm frightened.


You should be ok, you got through this process didn't you? I can't remember, sorry.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You should be ok, you got through this process didn't you? I can't remember, sorry.


I know I got it all sorted, but that doesn't allay my fears.


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

Many more people went on the anti-edl protest on sSaturday even if you include the locals, etc than did the ATOS one on Friday, its still a minority interest but also indicative of the priorities of much of civil society..


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 3, 2012)

yardbird said:


> I know I got it all sorted, but that doesn't allay my fears.


I understand. Please don't feel alone, this thread is here to help support anyone going through this shitty process.

{{{{{yardbird}}}}}


----------



## treelover (Sep 3, 2012)

Purnell is on Newsnight, he seems to have got away with so much, he is one of the originators of ESA, the sanctions regime, etc...


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 3, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It must be stopped, this will kill people. It is morally reprehensible.


 
It is already killing people.


----------



## seeformiles (Sep 4, 2012)

Verdict from people at Paralympics:


----------



## cesare (Sep 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> Many more people went on the anti-edl protest on sSaturday even if you include the locals, etc than did the ATOS one on Friday, its still a minority interest but also indicative of the priorities of much of civil society..



Perhaps. But bear in mind it was a Friday, and not everyone can take the afternoon off to go on a demonstration. I thought it was a good thing to get the turnout of about 300 on Friday, it's come a long way (although obviously further to go). It's encouraging, compared to say three years ago.


----------



## Celt (Sep 4, 2012)

They really are out to fuck us arn't they.  My mental health has deteriorated since the beginning of this process.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

cesare said:


> Perhaps. But bear in mind it was a Friday, and not everyone can take the afternoon off to go on a demonstration. I thought it was a good thing to get the turnout of about 300 on Friday, it's come a long way (although obviously further to go). It's encouraging, compared to say three years ago.


 

yes, i agree


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

WCA debate, on live now 11am on parliament player:

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11307

haven't looked but i bet there is no one there..


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...hs-of-worry-over-this-sorry-test-8102969.html

NL basically supporting the WCA with some fiddling at the edges...


----------



## Celt (Sep 4, 2012)

ah well don't have to worry about the post, I had my letter with my appointment for my medical on the 21st september.  Fucking love the little travel ittinery with it, apparently the 9 min walk to the bus stop will be fine.  I said in my form I drive a motabillity car, if I could walk for 9 mins I wouldn't be here worrying about this


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2012)

*"A cancer sufferer, who had her benefits cut by government officials who said she was fit to work, has died."

*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northe...ine&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 4, 2012)

Our new Greyskull.. I mean Greyling at the DWP. Mark Hoban.
Seems he's a Money man from the Treasury.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2012)

Patrick Lynch who was hurt in the recent protests. Patrick said: “The police officer involved was a thug and a bully, not fit to wear the uniform. If he hadn’t been in the police he would be facing charges for assault“








http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/09/01/police-break-wheelchair-users-shoulder-in-peaceful-protest/


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> Many more people went on the anti-edl protest on sSaturday even if you include the locals, etc than did the ATOS one on Friday, its still a minority interest but also indicative of the priorities of much of civil society..


 
Let's recall that Kevin Carroll, one of the unelected leaders of the EDL was cockahoop at a demo in Blackburn last year, crowing about how the EDL had put pressure on the government in doing something about "scroungers" (in reality the government didn't need any help from him). For that remark alone Carroll and his ilk should be the ones being bought to book, not those opposing them. In your rush to condemn the 'left' you can't see the wood for the tree's (scuse the pun).


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Patrick Lynch who was hurt in the recent protests. Patrick said: “The police officer involved was a thug and a bully, not fit to wear the uniform. If he hadn’t been in the police he would be facing charges for assault“
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
 THAT MAN GOT HIS SHOULDER BROKEN????!!!!!! FOR PEACEFULLY PROTESTING???!!! THAT POLICEMAN SHOULD BE BEHIND BARS. 

I am very angry


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 4, 2012)

Celt said:


> ah well don't have to worry about the post, I had my letter with my appointment for my medical on the 21st september. Fucking love the little travel ittinery with it, apparently the 9 min walk to the bus stop will be fine. I said in my form I drive a motabillity car, if I could walk for 9 mins I wouldn't be here worrying about this


Those travel things are the icing on the cake of stupidity.

{{{celt}}}


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2012)

I'm bloody fuming here.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

A new GP Survey is out today which shows that the WCA is pushing "vulnerable people to the brink" and that there are many suicides.
One of the most frightening of the statistics is that 6% of GPs say they have patients who have either attempted or commited suicide as a direct result of the WCA. On another blog they have worked out if this is only one person per GP(unlikely) it works out at 2,100 souls.

Blood on their hands...

http://www.rethink.org/how_we_can_h...tional_press_releases/new_gp_survey_shows.htm

link not working...


----------



## Jackobi (Sep 4, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.rethink.org/how_we_can_h...tional_press_releases/new_gp_survey_shows.htm
> 
> link not working...


 
Your link is missing the 'l' of 'html'

http://www.rethink.org/how_we_can_h...ional_press_releases/new_gp_survey_shows.html

That one should work.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 4, 2012)

Apparently ATOS healthcare.com have been tango downed.  Won't be for long but at least they are being treated with the contempt they deserve.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

not sure what that means...


----------



## Libertad (Sep 4, 2012)

DNS attack. Some citizen has downed their website.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

Ah


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 4, 2012)

Libertad said:


> DNS attack. Some citizen has downed their website.


----------



## treelover (Sep 4, 2012)

http://politicalscrapbook.net/

Grayling heckled at debate, not that he will care..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://politicalscrapbook.net/
> 
> Grayling heckled at debate, not that he will care..


 
He's made that very obvious in the way he's cast aside so many informed and principled objections to the legislation he supports.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

Now he is in the Justice Department, though of course he will come under much more scrutiny than in the DWP, especially from liberals who quite easily ignored his dissembling and mendacity over benefits..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> Now he is in the Justice Department, though of course he will come under much more scrutiny than in the DWP, especially from liberals who quite easily ignored his dissembling and mendacity over benefits..


 
I bet he wishes he was there when that video came out offering helpful advice


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

he will now 'fix' the tribunals process, he has already been quoted as saying 'they are allowing too many appeals to win''


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> he will now 'fix' the tribunals process, he has already been quoted as saying 'they are allowing too many appeals to win''


 
That's probably exactly the reason he got moved there


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

Steven Timms gave him shit about Harringtons reccomendations NOT being implemented:


> The previous Government introduced the work capability assessment and employment and support allowance to provide support for people who are out of work for health reasons, but who are able to plan for a return to work. The current Government chose to take a drastic short cut by curtailing the bedding down period for the new benefit and rolling out the assessment without any improvement, even though by that stage improvements had been identified and proposed. The predictable result of that has been severe problems. Ministers are failing in their task of managing the contract with Atos, of ensuring that people who claim employment and support allowance are treated as they should be, and of reviewing and reforming the test so that it works as it should. The test needs major improvement. Two of Professor Malcolm Harrington’s reviews have reported so far—the hon. Member for Enfield North (Nick de Bois) was right—and while the Government say that they have accepted most of the recommendations, they simply have not implemented them, and that is the heart of the problem.
> 
> One simple example that shows the muddle that the Minister has got into has been raised several times in the debate. The year one Harrington review recommended that Atos should pilot the audio recording of work capability assessments, and a pilot of 500 claimants followed. Atos said that it was a good idea, but we have heard what has happened in practice from my hon. Friends the Members for Makerfield (Yvonne Fovargue), for Stoke-on-Trent North (Joan Walley) and for Airdrie and Shotts (Pamela Nash).
> 
> ...


 

Greyling said yesterday:


> The issue of cancer has been raised. It has taken us longer than I expected to address that, because of various issues that arose in our discussions with Macmillan Cancer Support, but I believe that we are now in the right place. We will be making a formal announcement very shortly, but I have said before that I believe that we should extend to those receiving oral chemotherapy the access to the support group that is offered to people receiving intravenous chemotherapy.


 
I'll find the lnk to the Hansard....

WCA Debate 4th Sept Westminster Hall


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

its a long article, but Timms is no friend of disabled claimants


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

> Mr Kevan Jones (North Durham) (Lab):
> Several announcements that have been made, including about having mental health champions, have not been rolled out to assessment centres. Atos is still being inconsistent about allowing support workers or friends to assist those with mental health illnesses who are going to assessments.


 
I thought it was allowed you could take whoever you like..



> We have also had a series of mishaps. For example, the Minister made rather farcical efforts to suppress a YouTube video giving advice to people who were claiming against their work capability assessment. It turned out that the subversives who were responsible for this pernicious video were his colleagues at the Ministry of Justice.


 
as if Timms or Purnell wouldn't have done similar..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> its a long article, but Timms is no friend of disabled claimants


They'll use any excuse to rip the shit out of each other. We just have to make the best of the opportunities they give us when they do.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

This MP got close to the UNUM connection..


> Kevin Brennan (Cardiff West) (Lab):
> My hon. Friend is right to point out that the work capability assessment has been around for some time. For many years, I have been helping my constituent, Mr Robert Shafer, who was the victim of a poor assessment. Is my hon. Friend as concerned as I am that the chief medical officer of Atos is now Professor Michael O’Donnell? He was previously employed as chief medical officer by the American insurance company, Unum, which was described by the insurance commissioner for California, John Garamendi, as an “outlaw company” that has operated in an unlawful fashion for many years, running claims denial factories. Is that the kind of person that the Government should allow to be in charge of a work capability assessment system?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

On Recording Assessments, you can take your own expensive, dual recorder with you if you like:


> Greyling : I do not rule out recording. If there was overwhelming evidence showing that it was necessary, I would make it available, but let me give some statistics. There are 300 claimants waiting for an audio-recorded assessment, while Atos is conducting 8,000 assessments a week. We are ordering additional audio-recording machines so that people can have their assessment recorded, if they want. They are perfectly entitled to bring their own recording equipment to an assessment as long as it can record two copies of an assessment, because they need to be able to take one copy with them and leave the other behind. That is why we have to buy what is fairly expensive equipment, and we have ordered additional equipment because there has been an increase in demand in the last few weeks.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> This MP got close to the UNUM connection..


 



> 'In November 2001 a conference assembled at Woodstock, near Oxford. Its
> subject was ‘Malingering and Illness Deception’. The topic was a familiar one to
> the insurance industry, but it was now becoming a major political issue as New
> Labour committed itself to reducing the 2.6 million who were claiming Incapacity
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

That's when it all kicked off Treelover. That MP yesterday was the first time I'd heard any of them mention the UNUM connection. Think Black Triangle will be bending his ear shortly.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

aye, the logjam is breaking up,

a little...


----------



## laptop (Sep 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Think Black Triangle will be bending his ear shortly.


 
Looks as though they already have - MPs don't often stumble across such stuff for themselves...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 5, 2012)

http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

is Atos still down?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 5, 2012)

Nah, knew it wouldn't last forever. Just happy they are being targetted.

http://www.atoshealthcare.com/


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

laptop said:


> Looks as though they already have - MPs don't often stumble across such stuff for themselves...


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> Nah, knew it wouldn't last forever. Just happy they are being targetted.
> 
> http://www.atoshealthcare.com/


 
is it the work of one person or does it take, ahem, a team?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> is it the work of one person or does it take, ahem, a team?


 
Can never know for sure hun. With this kind of action I think the idea of a 'team' could be applied, albiet loosely.


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)




----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2012)

Well, I've just completed my ESA form, I'll get it posted off tomorrow. It's taken me nigh on a fortnight to get into the right frame of mind to tackle the fucker coz part of me's sure I'm going to get kicked off and as such I was thinking there's not much point even trying. Still, I can't fall at the first hurdle through nothing more than my own defeatism & I reckon I've made a fairly decent fist of it. I've got armache now with all that writing.

What's the difference between recorded and registered delivery, and do people think it's worth bothering with either or should I just trust the prepaid envelope? I've always sent PCA forms back in the envelope provided without any problems. I could take it to the jobcentre like I said a couple of pages back, but it's miles away - Further than the post office anyway.


----------



## purenarcotic (Sep 5, 2012)

Recorded delivery means somebody has to sign for it, so they can't say they haven't received it because there will be proof of signature of receipt.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2012)

Ta. I'm not sure whether to do it or not though. I begrudge paying for things.


----------



## laptop (Sep 5, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Ta. I'm not sure whether to do it or not though. I begrudge paying for things.


 
Recorded First Class is £1.55

Worth it for (a) the proof of posting and (b) the "don't mess with me" message. The latter more in business/tax dealings, possibly.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

Well worth it FL. Friend just posted hers and had letter from Atos the other day saying they'd not received it.. It's to be there by the 10th Sept and she's totally cllimbing the walls now and constantly phoning to see if they've 'found' it yet.


----------



## laptop (Sep 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Well worth it FL. Friend just posted hers and had letter from Atos the other day saying they'd not received it.


 
She kept a copy, right?


----------



## laptop (Sep 5, 2012)

Oh, and be aware that in some London districts last posting times are pulled forward a couple of hours because of the fucking Olympics


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Well worth it FL. Friend just posted hers and had letter from Atos the other day saying they'd not received it.. It's to be there by the 10th Sept and she's totally cllimbing the walls now and constantly phoning to see if they've 'found' it yet.


 
Shit, not so good. Yeah, your right - It's worth £1.55 to not have to go through that. Thinking about it, it's not inconcievable that some unscrupulous ATOS employees might file a few forms in the bin to cut their workload - I've heard of this happening in the past with HB claims. Hope your mates form turns up - It's quite scary to think your whole life could be turned upside down through some clown not doing their job properly.

Cheers laptop, I'm nowhere near London though.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

laptop said:


> She kept a copy, right?


Yes. Putting it all together again ready to take to a JC+/DWP office to get it sent through internal mail.. AND get a signature for it.


----------



## laptop (Sep 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Yes.


 
Phew!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 5, 2012)

Stack me sideways!!!! 

My MP actually took part in the debate - even though she didn't sign the Early Day Motion, despite emails asking her to. Better than nothing I suppose


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

Mine asked a question at PMQ's about the DLA cuts, signed the EDM too, i was quite surprised at how many LP MP's have signed the very robust(its John McDonnell after all) EDM

btw Sue Marsh's blog 'diary of a benefit scrounger' is getting very very popular and influential, but its also now attracting the nasties, the haters, some are just sick in the head...

i would ban them, they contribute nothing...


----------



## treelover (Sep 5, 2012)

> There is a point where a civilisation can rise above the level of grubbing; where how much something costs, such as a system of social welfare, is less important than its value to and effect upon society - a chance for the poorest to attain social mobility while not having to worry about where those bills are coming from; a society where the poorest can live out long lives in as rude health as the wealthiest.And then you get the tipping point, where a society begins to degenerate. Where, rather than talk about ambitious plans for giving the whole of society a chance to do something with their lives, people become burdened with a false sense of entitlement and sit on their stoop and complain about other people having life better than them.
> 
> It's always the other man who's "workshy," "scrounger," "unfit mother," "Bolshy lazy sponger." It's always _your_ taxes that are paying for the nice shoes on their feet, their nice haircut, the smile on their faces.And that bitterness seeps in and poisons everything. Compassion is a fool's dream; social programs warp in your perceptions into a grotesque parade of the poor supping at a trough of _your precious money_ or literally leeching the life from your veins while you sleep at night.Day and night, that poison works its way into the brain - that addiction to self-righteous pompous middle-class Charles Pooter "Diary Of A Nobody" fury which looks about as dangerous as a penguin carrying a handgun.
> 
> ...


 
truly amazing blog post on that site, up there with Orwell in my mind...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 5, 2012)

Do they have copiers at libraries? I'm thinking I'd best get mine copied, but I dunno anyone who's got a copier nor how to use one. Proper ballache this is turning into.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> <snip>
> 
> btw Sue Marsh's blog 'diary of a benefit scrounger' is getting very very popular and influential, but its also now attracting the nasties, the haters, some are just sick in the head...
> 
> i would ban them, they contribute nothing...


Truth be told I can't be arsed with her these days for a few reasons. Just the other day she let rip at a severely disabled lass for being dissapointed at a group closing on farcebook. Couldn't tell you the last time I read the blog. Oh yeah.. it was the New Descriptors leaked by the DPOs... And the DPOs guest post as no one had c/p'd them.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 5, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Do they have copiers at libraries? I'm thinking I'd best get mine copied, but I dunno anyone who's got a copier nor how to use one. Proper ballache this is turning into.


Seriosly best to keep a copy for reference if you're found fit and need to compare their papers with yours FL.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 6, 2012)

A transcript of the ATOS debate:



> Here is the Parliamentary transcript of the Atos Healthcare debate (which can be followed using hashtag #WCAdebate on Twitter) secured by Tom Greatrex MP earlier today. We wouldn't usually duplicate the whole transcript on Mylegal but this one is important and has been posted for ease of reference. It's very central to the argument for legal aid in the first - tier tribunals and I hope viewers find it of interest.
> 
> 
> *Atos Healthcare*
> ...


Continued on the site linked above.


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2012)

So, with some caveats, the LP still supports the ESA and indeed the test..

did they mention the low levels of fraud, etc..


----------



## treelover (Sep 6, 2012)

> It needs to be done sensitively, so that people feel helped and not as though they are being punished. Thirdly, although not everybody completely accepts this point, many feel that an assessment for those who rely on sickness and disability benefit is useful and appropriate. That was the envisaged purpose of ESA: to support those who can work into work, as well as those who sadly will never be able to work again.


its the nature of a bureaucracy like the DWP and now of course the private companies who have the profit motive, that the process can never be done sensitively and with empathy, even in the 'old days' you could be treated like dirt and lose benefits, though of course there have been and will be individuals who do display the qualities mentioned above..

btw, I have just read that ESA is only 4% of the total welfare budget, it's pensions that is the biggest element, how do they get away with conflating it all in the media, etc?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 6, 2012)

Because they couldn't be seen attacking the pensioners the way they do the sick, disabled and unemployed. Fraud and error is higher in Pension Credits too, but, that never gets mentioned.
Pensioners are the highest turnout voters at elections. 
Single pensioners are going to get a set £140 a week that'll stop the need for pension credit confusion and give a fair amount that they need to live on *in their opinion*, yet, single people below 66 are expected to exist on half that or less. 

Sad times, in this economy and political climate, when people are desperate to reach pensionable age to feel safe. I know I am and I've a fair way to go yet.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 6, 2012)

Pensioners probably won't be safe forever - Not so long ago it would have been inconcievable to attack those too sick/disabled to work in the manner we're seeing now.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 6, 2012)

Well the Tories did moot them getting out and doing community work for their pensions didn't they. AND raising the qualifying age so loads of people will cop it before they cost too much.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 6, 2012)

I can well imagine in the not too distant future those who don't have some sort of private provision for old age being portrayed as feckless types expecting the state to pay for them in their dotage.

Although that is taking the thread off topic. Sorry.

Got the old form sent off recorded delivery anyway.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 6, 2012)

Good stuff FL. Just the waiting game to play now.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 6, 2012)

Because I'm useless and can't find it, can anyone point me toward the ATOS breakdown of points scored in the new(ish) ESA50 form, a friend wants me to go thru hers and the form is so very slightly changed from the one I filled in.
It's somewhere in this thread I know *goes off scrabbling*


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 6, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Because I'm useless and can't find it, can anyone point me toward the ATOS breakdown of points scored in the new(ish) ESA50 form, a friend wants me to go thru hers and the form is so very slightly changed from the one I filled in.
> It's somewhere in this thread I know *goes off scrabbling*


Is this the new one you mean Yardie..? *different link*

ETA. I get what you mean now.. sorry m'dear.. Brainfart day and can barely find my face at the moment. Best I wheesht really.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 6, 2012)

Yeah Frankie, that's the form, but this was with answers relative to points.
Like - Can't walk ten paces = 15 points
         Sometimes = nil points


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 6, 2012)

Greyskull heckled from the gallery at the WCA debate.


----------



## treelover (Sep 7, 2012)

> 'This following statement I am writing in the hope that it may fall upon the person out there I need to help me in this dire situation…I am writing it for anyone to use, re-post (if you would? Thanks) and to anyone out there who might listen and help…We live in a country where we thankfully have the NHS, the benefit system, thank goodness that IS in place to help-but as they have cut off my benefits till some kind of proof of something or other is provided, I am now in a dire situation and unable to feed my children…The system is NOT working for me, but against me…Surely we’re the ones they are put in place for???
> 
> After my husband Alex Wood, suffered a severe brain injury on the 4th October 2011, my life, now nearly a year on becomes not easier, but ever more fearful and stressful.
> After a few weeks now of insane trials, fighting against the benefits system, fighting for funding for Alex and my head spinning with where to go next, I am now writing this as I have to take this a step higher…
> ...


 

Appalling heartbreaking story of a mum of four whose husband is recovering from a brain injury and the nightmare she is facing..

there are going to be a lot more of these stories, 'genuine' claimants who are absolutely baffled and angry about how they are being treated...

the brave ones will go public like this, she should contact the Guardian, The Indie, and The Mirror..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 7, 2012)

Caught that yesterday on the womans own blog. Manic mum


----------



## yardbird (Sep 7, 2012)

One of the things not mentioned is that the nightmare can start with the front-of-house.
Staff clearly trained to take no nonsense and in my case very aggressive and down right nasty!
Breaches of Health & Safety at the main entrance etc.
This is basic stuff and would resonate - no?


----------



## Celt (Sep 8, 2012)

yardbird said:


> One of the things not mentioned is that the nightmare can start with the front-of-house.
> Staff clearly trained to take no nonsense and in my case very aggressive and down right nasty!
> Breaches of Health & Safety at the main entrance etc.
> This is basic stuff and would resonate - no?


I accompanied a friend to his medical yesterday, friend is allergic to a number of things including perfume. fragrance which includes air fresheners etc.  The corridor in to the waiting room was very smelly, and the Nurse carrying out the medical said "oh I'm wearing perfume", it was written in his form numerous times, his gp had faxed them saying how severe the allergies are.  The nurse was pleasant enough but just didn't get it.  She had no idea how this affects him.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2012)

Celt said:


> I accompanied a friend to his medical yesterday, friend is allergic to a number of things including perfume. fragrance which includes air fresheners etc. The corridor in to the waiting room was very smelly, and the Nurse carrying out the medical said "oh I'm wearing perfume", it was written in his form numerous times, his gp had faxed them saying how severe the allergies are. The nurse was pleasant enough but just didn't get it. She had no idea how this affects him.


I hope your friend is alright, Celt.


----------



## treelover (Sep 8, 2012)

> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-to-confidential-medical-details-8118203.html


 

Independent has a scoop about Royal Mail opening much of the DWP/Atos ESA correspondence including ESA medicals, forms, etc. This has been covert with no scrutiny, given how leaky RM is, letters going missing, opened, etc, this is a disgrace.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 8, 2012)

Loads have known about this since way back last year treelover. Surprised the indy is calling it scoop to be honest. Still it does let more people know just how fucking awful this whole farce is.


----------



## laptop (Sep 8, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Loads have known about this since way back last year treelover. Surprised the indy is calling it scoop to be honest.


 
Maybe, but now




			
				Indy said:
			
		

> Lynne Neagle, a Welsh Assembly member


 
is back from holiday and given her say-so there's no need to run it past the lawyers.


Frankie Jack said:


> Surprised the indy is calling it scoop to be honest.


 
That, or investigate the benefits system _from the inside_...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 9, 2012)

Good article on Black Triangle site from Mo Stewart on Unumn, Atos and Government.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 9, 2012)

Oh and the excellent Atos Victims Group website is now closed.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 9, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Good article on Black Triangle site from Mo Stewart on Unumn, Atos and Government.


 
Solid documentation there, evidence that is impossible to ignore but will be.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 9, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Oh and the excellent Atos Victims Group website is now closed.


 
What's the story behind that Frankie?


----------



## yardbird (Sep 9, 2012)

Libertad said:


> What's the story behind that Frankie?


*Interested*


----------



## laptop (Sep 9, 2012)

Libertad said:


> What's the story behind that Frankie?


 
I know naathing, but I found this brief discussion:



> It's gone. Was there yesterday. I'd intended to link to Paul's bye-bye piece on the site in explanation, but he's brought the closure ahead.
> 
> In brief, it's down to 'internal' differences of opinion. Not for me to say more, but it doesn't appear to be down to dirty-tricks depts.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 9, 2012)

Libertad said:


> What's the story behind that Frankie?


Can't say I know for sure Lib... Lots of rumour flying as usual


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 9, 2012)

> *The REAL reason Osborne was booed at the Paralympics: Team GB blast coalition plans to slash vital disability payments*
> 
> The outraged athletes lined up to slam PM David Cameron and his beleaguered Chancellor George Osborne in a storm that threatens to taint tonight’s Paralympic closing ceremony


 
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/team-gb-slam-government-plans-1314513


----------



## laptop (Sep 9, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/team-gb-slam-government-plans-1314513


 



> Blind Team GB footballer Keryn Seal, 30... told the _Sunday Mirror_: ...
> “*Some of the reason* George Osborne and Theresa May were booed was because of the DLA stuff.”


 
Subtle


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 9, 2012)

Advice arounde re: Royal Mail opening ESA returns.
Mark envelopes Private and Confidential. Not sure whether this wil make a ratsfart of a difference, but, worth trying.


----------



## claphamboy (Sep 10, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Advice arounde re: Royal Mail opening ESA returns.
> Mark envelopes Private and Confidential. Not sure whether this wil make a ratsfart of a difference, but, worth trying.


 
There was a piece in the 'i' newspaper that said RM are not allowed to open letters marked as such, no way of knowing if that's true or not.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 10, 2012)

The Royal Mail don't give a fuck about stuff like that. Their sorting software recognises the postcode and filters the mail to its respective bag. The postie in that dept. just opens all of those envelopes and stacks them and then bags them for delivery to DWP/ATOS. They don't have time to read them or comment on them just enough time to lose any attachments that you may have included. 
This is why I didn't waste any money on having my form sent recorded, proof of postage was as good.

eta I've tried to find a link to where this has been discussed on one of the benefits forums by an ex-postie but no luck.


----------



## treelover (Sep 10, 2012)

I paid six pounds plus for special next day delivery, it got there at 4.30 PM in the morning, so was technically late, i hope it wasn't delayed by the RM for this kind of operation..

I didn't staple my medical evidence to the main form, have to get in touch with them..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> I paid six pounds plus for special next day delivery, it got there at 4.30 PM in the morning, so was technically late, i hope it wasn't delayed by the RM for this kind of operation..
> 
> I didn't staple my medical evidence to the main form, have to get in touch with them..


 
I too paid over £6.50 for next day delivery and it got there something like 10 or 12 days later


----------



## Libertad (Sep 10, 2012)

This may be of some use wrt. Royal Mail:

http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dwp_and_atos_healthcare_use_of_r


----------



## treelover (Sep 10, 2012)

Can't you claim up to 500 pounds in that case?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 10, 2012)

Libertad said:


> This may be of some use wrt. Royal Mail:
> 
> http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dwp_and_atos_healthcare_use_of_r


 
Big deal.  So they have CTC clearance (which just proves they're not terrorists)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 10, 2012)

treelover said:


> Can't you claim up to 500 pounds in that case?


 
No proof that's when it was delivered.  Only proof that that particular desk date stamped it as receiving it then.  May have been stuck in the post room or on someone's desk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 10, 2012)

> *ATOS DOCTORS – hard to believe but…*
> 
> 
> Sep 082012
> ...


http://www.dpac.uk.net/2012/09/atos-doctors-hard-to-believe-but/


----------



## Quartz (Sep 10, 2012)

I think this has been gone into upthread, but it bears repeating.

On the face of it, the government have a good argument. There are approx 3M DLA claimants, so a 0.5% fraud rate means that there are 15,000 fraudsters out there. That's hardly paltry. Assuming _(yes, I know)_ the middle rate of care and the lower rate of mobility and rounding down, that's £70 per week per claimant _(not a lot, is it?)_ or a tad over £54M a year. That's a lot of money in absolute terms, and without fraud prevention work it would undoubtedly be more.

Not so fast! Hang on a moment: HMG are paying ATOS £100M for their 'work'. That's almost twice the current amount estimated to be lost to fraud. So the fraud rate would have to *triple* before ATOS could be said to be cost-effective. Except that fraud rates haven't significantly changed (HMG PDF) since before ATOS. So congratulations, Cameron and IDS. You could have reduced the deficit by £100M a year (_remember, every penny counts!_) by firing ATOS. More even, because we, the British, pay for the appeals.  *Great* job there, guys.  I _do_ hope ATOS have shown an actual significant positive impact with other benefits. Somehow, I doubt it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 10, 2012)

Without even counting the costs...15,000 out of 3 million is IMO a paulty amount considering the amount of worry, stress, despair and in some cases devastation contact with ATOS has caused already. Add the fact it is costing 3 times as much before the appeals and there is further proof that satire is dead for the most obvious and sinister reasons. It is all so mind boggling wrong on too many levels. They want us all put up, to shut up and die, this is clear.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 10, 2012)

I was going to like both of those posts but it doesn't seem right.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 10, 2012)

Well to be fair the only thing we disagree on is whether 15,000 out of 3 million is a paultry amount.


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 10, 2012)

It has NEVER been about saving the taxpayer a single penny. That isn't something that any of the main political parties see as a priority. Simply pointing out how wasteful they are being is letting the bastards off the hook. They aren't incompetent. They are lying about their objectives.

There are three main driving forces behind the policies of the Con Dems and NuLabour.

1. Giving lucrative contracts to companies that donate large sums to the political parties.

2. Driving down wages and worsening terms and conditions of employment for working and lower middle class people. This is done by making unemployment as horrendous as they can get away with, and eventually a nigh on slave labour force through workfare schemes.

3. Driving up property prices by continuing the UK's artificial housing shortage.

The only difference between the parties is that the ConDems take the profits direct into their own pockets whilst NuLabour rely on the "generosity" of their financial backers.


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2012)

edited


----------



## treelover (Sep 11, 2012)

BBC 3's Free Speech programme,, (bit like QT) is covering the disability benefits issue, its becoming clear that as the wider public find out more about these 'reforms' they don't like them, NL were very good in obfuscating them, but things are changing, the Lib Dem on the programme has the cheek to say it will cost more in the end and most will get their benefits, no mention of the suicides, etc.

he was a Manchester MP, perhaps Mancs Urbs can send him the facts..


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 13, 2012)

> So it begins. #*Paralympian* with one leg told he's 'not disabled enough' to receive benefits #*olsx* #*onn* @*ukuncut* http://menmedia.co.uk/manchestereveningnews/p/1588677


 


> *Paralympian with one leg told he's 'not disabled enough' to receive benefits*
> 
> 
> A Paralympian who only has one leg has been told he will not receive benefits – because he is not disabled enough.
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2012)

Similar has happened before - over 10 years ago there was a case of a young woman with two prosthetic legs being denied the highest level of mobility component DLA because somebody decided that she could walk.  

Which she could (with a lot of pain), but that's not the point.  Pain, fatigue, and difficulty balancing etc are supposed to be taken into account.  And if you have severe discomfort (or worse) from the first step, DLA case law dictates that you should be counted as not being able to walk at all.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

Was only to be expected, as are ignorant comments like this:



> He is able to work though, and so should be on job seekers.. Surely disability living allowance is for people that cannot work because of their disability, no?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Was only to be expected, as are ignorant comments like this:


Quite.


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

on Twitter..

Liam Fox urges chancellor to ''cut welfare to pay for emergency tax cuts''


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> on Twitter..
> 
> Liam Fox urges chancellor to ''cut welfare to pay for emergency tax cuts''


He's also argued (again) that benefits paid to "better off pensioners" should not remain intact.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

Greebo said:


> He's also argued (again) that benefits paid to "better off pensioners" should not remain intact.


 
What exactly is a "better off pensioner"?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What exactly is a "better off pensioner"?


That bit wasn't defined.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> What exactly is a "better off pensioner"?


The ones that vote Tory of course.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> The ones that vote Tory of course.


 
I reckon there's quite a few in the House of Lords that are "better off pensioners"


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I reckon there's quite a few in the House of Lords that are "better off pensioners"


Hell yeah.. Any that may have to live on basic state pension (highly unlikely there are any) can top up their pittance with up to £300 a day 'turn up and have a snooze up the back' stipend.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2012)

Greebo said:


> He's also argued (again) that benefits paid to "better off pensioners" should not remain intact.


 
And he'll keep arguing it because Fox is one of those Tories who abhors the principle of universality, and the principle of universality stands behind the State Pension. Break that (and "grey power"), and riding roughshod over any other universal benefit becomes far easier.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

Never sure where to put these stories amongst all the Atos threads.

Not sure if this has been put up yet, a doctor who hadn't heard of Crohn's

http://chris-coltrane.livejournal.com/415304.html


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

Not sure if this has been posted up yet, and I'm not sure what the situation is for people who are in hospital



> Surely the system is there to help people in difficult situations, that’s why it exists doesn’t it? But my experience is that it is there to hinder and after receiving a letter telling Alex he has a job interview on the 28th September which if he doesn’t attend could effect his benefit (Employment Support Allowance) is just more than ridiculous.
> 
> They tell me when I ring the job centre they’ll do it over the phone instead…??? Do they not get it? He is utterly and completely incapable of this…!


 


Apologies, I see treelover's already posted about the family


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2012)

some of the comments on Sue Marsh's blog post on the above are the worse i have ever seen, I think they may be fash they are that extreme..


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2012)

treelover said:


> some of the comments on Sue Marsh's blog post on the above are the worse i have ever seen, I think they may be fash they are that extreme..


 
Obvious that some people didn't even bother reading the story



> Anonymous8 September 2012 17:34
> thier curent situation needs attention now, they need help.
> 
> BUT
> ...


 
Someone pointed out to Anonymous they had the children *before *his brain injury


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Obvious that some people didn't even bother reading the story
> 
> Someone pointed out to Anonymous they had the children *before *his brain injury


There are some vile people in the world


----------



## Celt (Sep 16, 2012)

I have my medical on Friday, it feels pretty pointless.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Sep 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> I have my medical on Friday, it feels pretty pointless.


 
No. They are pointless. You are not.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 16, 2012)

What goldencitrone said Celt. Get all the hints and tips together that you can before then. xx


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> I have my medical on Friday, it feels pretty pointless.


Is someone going with you?

Best of luck x x


----------



## Celt (Sep 16, 2012)

Someone is accompanying me to the building, but doesn't plan on coming in with me, I am to speak to her on wednesday,  she works for one of the mental health charities.

I have sort of decided I can't think about it till wednesday I get back from travels to a family funeral in Yorkshire then. .

I can't stay this nervy till then. 

I need to go back and re-read the descriptors on benefits and wok site.

I am allowing myself a brief think about it now.

Its going to be a fun week.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> Someone is accompanying me to the building, but doesn't plan on coming in with me, I am to speak to her on wednesday, she works for one of the mental health charities.
> 
> I have sort of decided I can't think about it till wednesday I get back from travels to a family funeral in Yorkshire then. .
> 
> ...


{{{celt}}}

Wishing all the best for the funeral Celt.


----------



## Celt (Sep 16, 2012)

So should I be asking the lady coming with me to come in with me?  Not to take part more as witness.  I haven't asked to have it recorded, it seems to be unlikely it would happen and I need to get this over with,  I can't do the stress f the last few weeks much longer.

Funeral will be ok,  part of my problem with the medical is that in the last few weeks I have been spending a lot of time supporting mum,  her heart isn't just fine and her now departed sister was much cause for concern.  The bonus is I get to see family I haven't seen in an age.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> So should I be asking the lady coming with me to come in with me? Not to take part more as witness. I haven't asked to have it recorded, it seems to be unlikely it would happen and I need to get this over with, I can't do the stress f the last few weeks much longer.
> 
> Funeral will be ok, part of my problem with the medical is that in the last few weeks I have been spending a lot of time supporting mum, her heart isn't just fine and her now departed sister was much cause for concern. The bonus is I get to see family I haven't seen in an age.


I would, as much for moral support as for being a witness. Also take notes if you are able.

It's good that you will see family, even though it's not in the happiest of circumstances.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 17, 2012)

*HoC Work and Pensions Committee 

Grimond Room
Meeting starts at 4.30pm
Universal Credit*

Witnesses

Rt Hon Iain Duncan Smith MP, Secretary of State, and Lord Freud, Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for Welfare Reform, Department for Work and Pensions 

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=11424


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2012)

Allegra Stratton on Newsnight(has the ear of cabinet tories) is stating that its likely all benefits will be frozen for two years, now we can why Gideon allowed benefits to be uprated earlier this year, so he could point to the unfairness of ''claimants getting more than workers''...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 18, 2012)

treelover said:


> Allegra Stratton on Newsnight(has the ear of cabinet tories) is stating that its likely all benefits will be frozen for two years, now we can why Gideon allowed benefits to be uprated earlier this year, so he could point to the unfairness of ''claimants getting more than workers''...


 
Not *ALL* benefits.

As usual, they're steering clear of riling the oldies.


----------



## treelover (Sep 18, 2012)

not just frozen, now its 'uprating with average earnings' not inflation, of any kind, unbelievable,


----------



## Celt (Sep 21, 2012)

i had my medical today, it was ok, though I was a little surprised that when talking about suicidal feelings at her question "what stopped you?", but that could be my interpretation .

Just have to wait now


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 21, 2012)

Well you've done all you can do now Celt. Just the waiting game now - Here's hoping it goes your way.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 21, 2012)

Celt said:


> i had my medical today, it was ok, though I was a little surprised that when talking about suicidal feelings at her question "what stopped you?", but that could be my interpretation .
> 
> Just have to wait now


 
Did you reply "not wanting to give you the satisfaction"?  

Glad you've got it over and done with, and it wasn't too traumatic.  Fingers crossed for good result


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2012)

Glad it went ok, Celt. Fingers crossed it's a good result for you.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 21, 2012)

Well done with your medical, fingers crossed here too.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2012)

yardbird said:


> Well done with your medical, fingers crossed here too.


How you doing, yardbird?


----------



## Celt (Sep 21, 2012)

actually i'm just rethinking that statement, she was a nurse and she led the interview ok, i'm not as sure of myself now, but she gave the impression she understood me.  She commented on the muscle mass difference of left and right legs, she understood adaptions.  I was mortified when I couldn't remember the last paid job I had,  <my mind went totally blank>  she can either treat it fairly  or not.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2012)

Celt said:


> actually i'm just rethinking that statement, she was a nurse and she led the interview ok, i'm not as sure of myself now, but she gave the impression she understood me. She commented on the muscle mass difference of left and right legs, she understood adaptions. I was mortified when I couldn't remember the last paid job I had, <my mind went totally blank> she can either treat it fairly or not.


You did your best, that's all you can do.


----------



## Celt (Sep 21, 2012)

well if it went ok, it will be fine if not I can look forward to getting a job, that will be good  I look forward to life changing,  its been fucking shit surviving.

I only got DLA on appeal.

and life was very much easier then.

waiting is going to be hard


----------



## Celt (Sep 22, 2012)

Well the friend I took two weeks ago, heard today that he got no points   This despite having been ill more or less constantly since the medicsl  with allergy associated effects, skin swollen and sore,  etc.  he will appeal.

Re running yesterdays interview in my head.  Its not really helpful, but I'm in pain, sciatic nerve really twanging.


----------



## Celt (Sep 22, 2012)

apologies for hijacking the thread - and apparently killing it​i know that I contradicted myself yesterday, and found some of the questioning so difficult that I gave answers which were acceptable but wern't actually true. 

Unfortunately today is a bad day, I am dropping with tired. One of the questions, we had talked about my sleep walking, night activity, (I hate talking about it) then we moved on on to medication, went through blood pressure and diabetes meds ok, then pain relief, explaining my over sensitivity to opiates, 2 different typles "so do you take them regularly" No,and again no. " Right, sleeping pills do you you take them?" Yes, "do they work?" I said yes, I felt it was pathetic to say the truth, they do help in that I now get some sleep every night, but that might be 2 hours.

So I may as well prepare myself for the appeal process..​Questions were certainly not "open questions", but no one is pretending this process is fair.​Can anyone advise me if there is anything I should be doing right now.​


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 23, 2012)

Celt said:


> apologies for hijacking the thread - and apparently killing it​i know that I contradicted myself yesterday, and found some of the questioning so difficult that I gave answers which were acceptable but wern't actually true.​​Unfortunately today is a bad day, I am dropping with tired. One of the questions, we had talked about my sleep walking, night activity, (I hate talking about it) then we moved on on to medication, went through blood pressure and diabetes meds ok, then pain relief, explaining my over sensitivity to opiates, 2 different typles "so do you take them regularly" No,and again no. " Right, sleeping pills do you you take them?" Yes, "do they work?" I said yes, I felt it was pathetic to say the truth, they do help in that I now get some sleep every night, but that might be 2 hours.​​So I may as well prepare myself for the appeal process..​Questions were certainly not "open questions", but no one is pretending this process is fair.​Can anyone advise me if there is anything I should be doing right now.​


Make as many notes as you can on what happened in the interview, and if you remember new details add those too. I would also suggest making notes of how you have been since the interview. There is no way today's bad day isn't connected to all the stress and anxiety this is putting you through. 

You haven't hijacked the thread at all - it's what it's here for, for as long as you need it.

Take it easy lovey x x


----------



## Greebo (Sep 23, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Make as many notes as you can on what happened in the interview, and if you remember new details add those too. I would also suggest making notes of how you have been since the interview. There is no way today's bad day isn't connected to all the stress and anxiety this is putting you through.
> 
> You haven't hijacked the thread at all - it's what it's here for, for as long as you need it.<snip>


Word.


----------



## Celt (Sep 23, 2012)

thank you both, i will do that.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 23, 2012)

Celt said:


> thank you both, i will do that.


Sooner or later somebody else will need the thread, and you'll be able to tell them that they can get through this, even if they don't enjoy it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 23, 2012)

Celt said:


> i had my medical today, it was ok, though I was a little surprised that when talking about suicidal feelings at her question "what stopped you?", but that could be my interpretation .
> 
> Just have to wait now


WTF..!!! "what stopped you?" Out of order..!!

ETA.. This is why these assessments SHOULD be taped.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 23, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> WTF..!!! "what stopped you?" Out of order..!!
> 
> ETA.. This is why these assessments SHOULD be taped.


Absolutely. Well out of order in my opinion.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 24, 2012)

I think Atos get a bad press. Some of their medical operatives have been given a thorough 8 day training course. Just because they don't make eye contact as they key in your details to the computer doesn't mean that they are not interested in the individual.

edited: thing becomes think


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I thing Atos get a bad press. Some of their medical operatives have been given a thorough 8 day training course. Just because they don't make eye contact as they key in your details to the computer doesn't mean that they are not interested in the individual.


What..!? Have you read this thread and others like it or are you just following DWP rhetoric?


----------



## claphamboy (Sep 24, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I thing Atos get a bad press. Some of their medical operatives have been given a thorough 8 day training course. Just because they don't make eye contact as they key in your details to the computer doesn't mean that they are not interested in the individual.


 
I assume this is a piss-take?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 24, 2012)

I think he's taking the piss



> thorough eight day training course


 
I hope so anyway


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> WTF..!!! "what stopped you?" Out of order..!!
> 
> ETA.. This is why these assessments SHOULD be taped.


 That's why these cretins should be reported to their governing bodies.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Like we need piss takers...


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 24, 2012)

Celt said:


> i had my medical today, it was ok, though I was a little surprised that when talking about suicidal feelings at her question "what stopped you?", but that could be my interpretation .
> 
> Just have to wait now





Frankie Jack said:


> WTF..!!! "what stopped you?" Out of order..!!
> 
> ETA.. This is why these assessments SHOULD be taped.


*sigh*

tbf, that one's really difficult. And not just in ATOS assessments.

I can remember speaking to a drugs worker, who was in on an MH assessment for a section 136 (basically a psychiatric assessment after someone'd been taken into 'care' by the police). And the psychiatrist asked why she'd tried to kill herself on a stretch of road in front of a bus station filled with people, and not just round the corner on the (unwatched) main / A road.

If that question was asked in a therapeutic environment or, hell, even by the Samaritans, it could be a really good way of exploring someone's resources, strengths, perceptions of their situation, suicidal-ness *and* the 'real' nature of their support / other needs. (Someone who wasn't intending to die might still have fairly hefty support needs, but addressing them as though they were disordered and suicidal might be inappropriate, and not - necessarily - only for reasons of resourcing).

On the other hand, when it's asked by an ATOS assessor...


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Sep 24, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> I assume this is a piss-take?


Yup, I have been reading up about Atos. They are a massive multinational company based in France with branches all over the world including Australia. They have gobbled up lots of smaller companies including the medical side of Seimens. They have their own healthcare division and I wouldn't be surprised if they become one of the government's "preferred bidders" when it comes to the privatization of the health service. I was in my reference to the 8 day training hoping people would remember the 6 year training that a proper doctor gets.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Care models for people with longterm conditions and medically unexplained symptoms- How do we embed collaboration?

More Biopsychosocial "It's all in your head" shit bleeding into the medical system.


> Slide 43 - Engagement
> Basically doctors should pretend to care ie be"empathetic".
> They should also pretend to the patient that they take their physical symptoms seriously. They've not to mention anything to do with psychology, but they've not bother investigating if there is any physical cause which would explain the symptoms of the patient.
> 
> Slide 45 - Recovery is just a form of behaviour and has nothing to do with whether the patient is still experiencing symptoms.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Care models for people with longterm conditions and medically unexplained symptoms- How do we embed collaboration?
> 
> More Biopsychosocial "It's all in your head" shit bleeding into the medical system.


I've read through the slides, and haven't found anything that says that. I've ctrl+fed 'pretend,' and can't find the word used there.

wrt 'not bother investigating it...' The same document does state earlier that they'd only usually begin to consider approaching problems as 'medically unexplained' when they'd been through all available / apparent diagnostic tests. What they're outlining doesn't read to me as bad practice; more trying to find people find a way of improving their coping skills / quality of life when medical tests and treatment aren't being that useful.

e2a: and, in my reading, they very clearly *don't* state that "it's all in your head." In my reading, at least.


----------



## 8115 (Sep 24, 2012)

I read it, thought it was ok.  I like biopsychosocial anyway.


----------



## Celt (Sep 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> WTF..!!! "what stopped you?" Out of order..!!
> 
> ETA.. This is why these assessments SHOULD be taped.


 
I very much regret not having had it recorded or having had someone with me.


----------



## laptop (Sep 24, 2012)

What it actually says is that doctors *should* take the symptoms seriously; should *avoid* the argument over whether their root is psychological or not; and should focus on stopping them.

Seems sensible, even for the case of the patient who's prepared to suffer the symptoms indefinitely or until they get a non-psychological diagnosis with a handy pill.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

These people are from the Aylward-Wessely school of disability denial. Involving the infamous Prof Trudie Chalder, who has made a successful career so far peddling this biopsychosocialbabble gibberish that is being utilised by this and the previous governments in the formation of the WCA done by Atos and the Welfare reform Act.

They are  looking at CFS/ME, Fibro and other illnesses that have 'Medically Unexplained Symptoms' and saying it's all in the patients head. 

These guys are pushing for more psychotherapy in the case of these illnesses.

Trying to explain myself is very much like wading through mud just now as I'm in real pain after walking to JC+ to sign on and back and my mind is having brain farts. These professionals would say that I need a shrink rather than real medical investigation into these conditions though.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Hope to find this book somewhere on teh internets to read.

Authors of Our Own Misfortune?: The Problems with Psychogenic Explanations for Physical Illnesses 


> Since the advent of "medicine" as a discrete practice, beliefs that bodily illness can somehow be caused by psychological, emotional, and behavioural "disorder" have been claimed by many in the discipline. Such beliefs became less creditable as scientific methods of detecting disease developed, with discoveries such as the physiological and anatomical abnormalities in Parkinson's disease and Multiple Sclerosis, for example, and the organisms causing syphilis and duodenal ulcers. Nevertheless, psychogenic explanations for illnesses still appear frequently within medical and academic literature, in "common sense" public discourses, and in medical diagnoses of patients. But how plausible are these explanations? Authors of our Own Misfortune? proposes that psychogenic explanations for physical illnesses are subject to a complex mix of confusing concepts, accompanied by certain moralistic and ideological assumptions about people and their illnesses. Most crucially, such explanations are also, almost always, fatally flawed, both scientifically and logically. Furthermore, the widespread, uncritical acceptance and use of such explanations has had serious and specific adverse effects on the people upon whom they are used. This is a timely, groundbreaking book about a critical theme in medicine. It provides rigorous analysis of the claims made about "mental disorder" and bodily illness, using current "medical controversies" (such as, but not limited to, Myalgic Encephalomyelitis and Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) to demonstrate the problems with and adverse effects of such claims. Authors of our Own Misfortune? is essential reading for academics, health professionals, and those directly or indirectly affected by psychogenic explanations for illness.


----------



## toggle (Sep 24, 2012)

laptop said:


> What it actually says is that doctors *should* take the symptoms seriously; should *avoid* the argument over whether their root is psychological or not; and should focus on stopping them.
> 
> Seems sensible, even for the case of the patient who's prepared to suffer the symptoms indefinitely or until they get a non-psychological diagnosis with a handy pill.


 
who is _prepared_ to suffer? you make it sound like these peopl are deliberately martyring themselves.

how about : who will suffer, because the theraputic approaches that deny all physical cause of their symptoms are completely non effective.

while there may not be a magic pill cure for everything, investigation into physical causes can help them and other patients by looking for one, maybee alongside psycological therapies designed to help alleviate the depressive effects of being permanently physically fucked and having every bastard tell you you're a bloody malingerer.


----------



## memorex (Sep 24, 2012)

A nurse in Scotland who worked for Atos has come out and told the truth about the bastards.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nurse-makes-heartfelt-apology-after-1340838#


----------



## Libertad (Sep 24, 2012)

8115 said:


> I read it, thought it was ok. I like biopsychosocial anyway.


 
Why do you like biopsychosocial analysis?


----------



## 8115 (Sep 24, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Why do you like biopsychosocial analysis?


 
I suppose I see it as a part of seeing someone as a whole person.  Also I think it focusses on possible solutions, rather than just deficits, ie depression being a holistic issue rather than a chemical problem in the brain.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 24, 2012)

memorex said:


> A nurse in Scotland who worked for Atos has come out and told the truth about the bastards.
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nurse-makes-heartfelt-apology-after-1340838#


 
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...-people-out-of-benefits.299571/#post-11544025


----------



## memorex (Sep 24, 2012)

Ooops, sorry


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 24, 2012)

memorex said:


> Ooops, sorry


 
It deserved its own thread


----------



## Libertad (Sep 24, 2012)

8115 said:


> I suppose I see it as a part of seeing someone as a whole person. Also I think it focusses on possible solutions, rather than just deficits, ie depression being a holistic issue *rather than* a chemical problem in the brain.


 
Depression *is* a chemical problem in the brain.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Libertad said:


> Depression *is* a chemical problem in the brain.


Depression can also occur as a result of, or as part of, physical illnesses.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 24, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Depression can also occur as a result of, or as part of, physical illnesses.


 
I'm aware of this.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 24, 2012)

Libertad said:


> I'm aware of this.


Sorry Libertad. I quoted your post instead of 8115s. *brainfarts*


----------



## Libertad (Sep 24, 2012)

S'ok


----------



## Celt (Sep 24, 2012)

and those of us who live with depression don't really care if its a chemical or physical cause, we would just like it to stop.


----------



## Celt (Sep 24, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> *sigh*
> 
> tbf, that one's really difficult. And not just in ATOS assessments.
> 
> ...


 
I fail to understand how it might be used by ATOS - but that is possibly my failing


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Yup, I have been reading up about Atos. They are a massive multinational company based in France with branches all over the world including Australia. They have gobbled up lots of smaller companies including the medical side of Seimens. They have their own healthcare division and I wouldn't be surprised if they become one of the government's "preferred bidders" when it comes to the privatization of the health service. I was in my reference to the 8 day training hoping people would remember the 6 year training that a proper doctor gets.


Six year minimum - never mind all the qualifications they have do afterwards. Six years is just the medical degree.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

memorex said:


> A nurse in Scotland who worked for Atos has come out and told the truth about the bastards.
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/nurse-makes-heartfelt-apology-after-1340838#


And a quote from the article, from Atos:


> We understand that applying for benefit can be a difficult time which is why we try to make the part of the process we’re responsible for as comfortable as possible.”


 
Lying fuckers. Sitting on a barbed wire chair would probably be more comfortable than their interview.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Sep 25, 2012)

> *jaynelinney*
> 
> *Just another WordPress.com site*
> 
> ...


http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/when-depression-has-a-reason/


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2012)

laptop said:


> What it actually says is that doctors *should* take the symptoms seriously; should *avoid* the argument over whether their root is psychological or not; and should focus on stopping them.


 Shame doctors don't follow that advice then. I've been complaining to my GP for the last 7 years about knee pain and asking for pain killers for it. Finally the other week my GP suggested I try neurofen. 

It turns out that in my medical records (which my GP's have had a copy of all along)  I've got athritis in both knees.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2012)

Celt said:


> and those of us who live with depression don't really care if its a chemical or physical cause, we would just like it to stop.


 Unfortunatley there isn't a pill or psychotherapy that will sort out incompetant doctors or ATOSers.


----------



## treelover (Sep 25, 2012)

Any link to the cartoon by Ridell?, its fantastic...


----------



## treelover (Sep 25, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Shame doctors don't follow that advice then. I've been complaining to my GP for the last 7 years about knee pain and asking for pain killers for it. Finally the other week my GP suggested I try neurofen.
> 
> It turns out that in my medical records (which my GP's have had a copy of all along) I've got athritis in both knees.


 

A friend of mine who has had M.E twenty five years was telling her doctor for years she had lung problems, it was only when she transferred doctors and was sent to a Consultant that Aspergillus was identified and now has only 3/4 of a lung, now recently she has found out they also missed heart disease, its seemed to always be ''oh, that will be your M.E''


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 25, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I thing Atos get a bad press. Some of their medical operatives have been given a thorough 8 day training course. Just because they don't make eye contact as they key in your details to the computer doesn't mean that they are not interested in the individual.


 
Quote from the notes from my ATOS assessment "client does not appear depressed".

That's why ATOS get a bad press. Because the assessors write complete and utter shit that should have any medical professional struck off by the relevant professional bodies. They get huge amounts of money from the tax payer to declare sick and disabhled people fit to work. Then the taxpayer has to foot the 50 million quid bill for the appeals. Meanwhile over 30 people a week die.

In my opinion, anyone collaborating in this unholy scam is "an accessory to mass manslaughter".


----------



## Celt (Sep 25, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/2012/09/25/when-depression-has-a-reason/


thanks for posting that, it sums up how I feel and how I feel about this medical.

Anxiety levels have gone way up, and the sciatic pain is bad. I had got to the stage where I did not feel ashamed of being me, and ried to do something useful with the good days I had.

Now I just feel rubbish


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Yup, I have been reading up about Atos. They are a massive multinational company based in France with branches all over the world including Australia. They have gobbled up lots of smaller companies including the medical side of Seimens. They have their own healthcare division and I wouldn't be surprised if they become one of the government's "preferred bidders" when it comes to the privatization of the health service. I was in my reference to the 8 day training hoping people would remember the 6 year training that a proper doctor gets.


 
Of course, you're not guaranteed to see a doctor, just a "healthcare professional".


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 25, 2012)

Daily Record on Atos again today
Benefits bullies Atos driving Scots to brink of suicide, shock survey reveals


> DISABLED Scots are being driven to the brink of suicide by controversial fit-for-work tests carried out by Atos.
> Disturbing testimony from doctors exposes the devastation wreaked by the Con-Dem Government’s attempts to slash the welfare bill.
> A shock survey shows 84 per cent of GPs have patients who have suffered stress, anxiety and depression due to the humiliating work capability assessments by the French multinational company.
> And a startling one fifth of doctors believe the tests are causing suicidal thoughts in their patients.
> ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> I've read through the slides, and haven't found anything that says that. I've ctrl+fed 'pretend,' and can't find the word used there.
> 
> wrt 'not bother investigating it...' The same document does state earlier that they'd only usually begin to consider approaching problems as 'medically unexplained' when they'd been through all available / apparent diagnostic tests. What they're outlining doesn't read to me as bad practice; more trying to find people find a way of improving their coping skills / quality of life when medical tests and treatment aren't being that useful.
> 
> e2a: and, in my reading, they very clearly *don't* state that "it's all in your head." In my reading, at least.


 
"Medically unexplained symptoms" is a dustbin diagnosis, and one where you've unwittingly conformed to the medical profession's prejudice by "prescribing" "improving their coping skills/quality of life" (many people, by the time their problem has become chronic, usually know more about coping mechanisms and q of l adjustment and maximisation than their medical professionals do). That's exactly what the biopsychosocial movement prescribe, on the basis that if your symptoms are medically-unexplained, then improving your coping skills is rational. Of course, they also state that medically-unexplained symptoms are artifacts of the interaction of psychological stresses on the physiology of the patient, and that "playing the sick role" garners more reward than merely being unemployed etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2012)

8115 said:


> I read it, thought it was ok. I like biopsychosocial anyway.


 
It's great if you like 70-year old psychiatric, psychological and sociological concepts served up on a bed of tepid medicalised bullshit.

Me, I prefer something a little less centred on giving psychiatry a new bunch of patients to play with, and more on ongoing medical analysis and research.


----------



## mrs quoad (Sep 25, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Medically unexplained symptoms" is a dustbin diagnosis, and one where you've unwittingly conformed to the medical profession's prejudice by "prescribing" "improving their coping skills/quality of life" (many people, by the time their problem has become chronic, usually know more about coping mechanisms and q of l adjustment and maximisation than their medical professionals do). That's exactly what the biopsychosocial movement prescribe, on the basis that if your symptoms are medically-unexplained, then improving your coping skills is rational. Of course, they also state that medically-unexplained symptoms are artifacts of the interaction of psychological stresses on the physiology of the patient,


With you up to there.

What I'm not sure of - and curious about - is... where medicine should go, if medicine (as it currently stands and is structured) feels that there is nowhere it can go. So to speak. In terms of a meaningful and pragmatic response.

Keep on seeking medical explanations? Always? That... seems to be deifying 'conventional' medicine and its access to explanations in a way that I'm not sure it merits 

I guess I also have some hesitancy about ruling out the role of stress / psychological stresses _in their entirety_ as a main / substantial cause of *some people's* problems. AFAICT, the doc quoted (again, my experience of MUS is quite limited) very clearly avoids stating that medically-unexplained symptoms are 'artefacts.' Hence my wariness at the word 'pretend.' It wasn't something I saw in the quoted document, which seemed - tbh - to be taking quite an agnostic approach towards 'unexplained,' rather than using it as a thinly-veiled euphemism for 'bonkers.'



> and that "playing the sick role" garners more reward than merely being unemployed etc.


I don't see that in the doc quoted. And I'm guessing that not all doctors who believe in the validity of a 'medically unexplained symptoms' approach would buy into that; not without the hefty qualifier that emotional / psychological rewards are very individual things, so couldn't meaningfully be unilaterally applied to a group. Again, the doc quoted above seemed to me (at a reading) to be agnostic wrt employability / emotional rewards, etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2012)

laptop said:


> What it actually says is that doctors *should* take the symptoms seriously; should *avoid* the argument over whether their root is psychological or not; and should focus on stopping them.
> 
> Seems sensible, even for the case of the patient who's prepared to suffer the symptoms indefinitely or until they get a non-psychological diagnosis with a handy pill.


 
I'm not sure about "sensible", although it may seem *convenient*, and you appear to be arguing against one of the planks of the biopsychosocial ideology, when you posit that with a non-psychological diagnosis and a pill, the patient becomes treatable.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> With you up to there.
> 
> What I'm not sure of - and curious about - is... where medicine should go, if medicine (as it currently stands and is structured) feels that there is nowhere it can go. So to speak. In terms of a meaningful and pragmatic response.
> 
> ...



This may give a better insight to they Aylward crew and their biopsychosocial babble. 

Gill Thorburn
A response to Professor Aylward's statement to Black Triangle and DPAC
outside the IFDM2012 conference, on 11th September 2012.

Fron page 2


> For anyone unaware of this concept, it promotes,
> among other things, the notion that a sick person has much to gain from 'playing' the sick role. Patients are portrayed as accruing certain advantages from being ill (or merely claiming to be so). These are so-called secondary gains such as 'exemption from 'performing' in society, and from social responsibilities, as well as receiving attention and help that those
> who do not claim sickness cannot. Those are the 'rights' that sick people enjoy. On the other side is the obligation to do everything a person possibly can to get better and participate fully in society. The problem around this, of course, is the assumption that illness can always be recovered from, that the sick will always heal. This is a notion which is not only unhelpful,
> but is positively harmful when the sick role is attached to the long-term, chronically ill. This, however, is the very aspect of ‘the social' which Professor Aylward evidently gives priority to in his theories. And it is exactly that idea which is incorporated within the WCA, whereby chronically sick people, with progressive and sometimes terminal illnesses are being forced into a perpetual round of reassessment, the black magic roundabout administered by Atos, just in case they have magically become 'well'. When we have a situation of someone with Down's syndrome being asked at their WCA how long they have had that 'condition', it is not hard to visualise that she too will be continually reassessed to see if her 'condition' improves
> over time.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 25, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> With you up to there.
> 
> 
> What I'm not sure of - and curious about - is... where medicine should go, if medicine (as it currently stands and is structured) feels that there is nowhere it can go. So to speak. In terms of a meaningful and pragmatic response.


 
The structure is part of the problem, IMO, especially with the issues of the last 20 years or so with the onus on universities to make research pay. A significant minority of the research that the biopsychosocial school base their approach on is small-sample and poorly-controlled, but if it's what the universities are offered funding for (usually, in this field, from the makers and sellers of happy pills, then it's what gets researched.
Personally, I'm not willing to give credence to research that posits a psychological basis (to give one example) for an illness base on a sample of 12 patients (2 of whom were introduced to the research *after* it started) conforming to a set of criteria that didn't match any extant set of diagnostic criteria for the same illness in either the DSM or ICD, and who benefitted (in this case) from Prozac.
I'm also wary of any scientist who attempts to reanimate the long-dead and justly-ridiculed corpse of "the sick role". I'm no logical positivist, but I do have *some* standards!



> I guess I also have some hesitancy about ruling out the role of stress / psychological stresses _in their entirety_ as a main / substantial cause of *some people's* problems. AFAICT, the doc quoted (again, my experience of MUS is quite limited) very clearly avoids stating that medically-unexplained symptoms are 'artefacts.' Hence my wariness at the word 'pretend.' It wasn't something I saw in the quoted document, which seemed - tbh - to be taking quite an agnostic approach towards 'unexplained,' rather than using it as a thinly-veiled euphemism for 'bonkers.'


 
Well, I'd agree with you if I didn't know (from following this debate as it has unfolded over the last 20 years) that clinicians etc are very careful nowadays to not enunciate their thoughts near those they are examining, just to spout a few inconsequentials and not give away to the patient any "hostages to fortune" in the shape of voiced assumptions about them somatising their stress. It used to happen all the time, 20 years ago. Nowadays those people operating under the biopsychosocial rubric tend to guard their words more carefully.

And yeah, sounds like conspiracy theory, doesn't it? 



> I don't see that in the doc quoted. And I'm guessing that not all doctors who believe in the validity of a 'medically unexplained symptoms' approach would buy into that; not without the hefty qualifier that emotional / psychological rewards are very individual things, so couldn't meaningfully be unilaterally applied to a group. Again, the doc quoted above seemed to me (at a reading) to be agnostic wrt employability / emotional rewards, etc.


 
*If* clinicians and scientists were entirely neutral, I'd absolutely agree with you, but we're both social scientists, and we both know that nothing is produced in a vacuum; that interests infiltrate all research and all attitudes. That makes me cycnical about any agnosticism, and the motivation for it.[/quote]


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## audiotech (Sep 25, 2012)

BRING IT ON!!!


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## Celt (Sep 26, 2012)

mrs quoad said:


> With you up to there.
> t merits snip
> 
> 
> I don't see that in the doc quoted. And I'm guessing that not all doctors who believe in the validity of a 'medically unexplained symptoms' approach would buy into that; not without the hefty qualifier that emotional / psychological rewards are very individual things, so couldn't meaningfully be unilaterally applied to a group. Again, the doc quoted above seemed to me (at a reading) to be agnostic wrt employability / emotional rewards, etc.


 
Stress certainly doesn't produce good things for those of us with both physical and mental health problems.

Doctors don't actually do the assesments that this thread refers to (the atos medical, questions answers and support)

I suppose the above discussion is referring more to the ATOS policies that produce the questions asked by the nurse (dental? Medical? Vetinary?) at my medical last week, after which I am left so stressed that I am word blind, and can't think outside my very small box at the moment.


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## WouldBe (Sep 26, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Quote from the notes from my ATOS assessment "client does not appear depressed".
> 
> That's why ATOS get a bad press. Because the assessors write complete and utter shit that should have any medical professional struck off by the relevant professional bodies.


Have you reported your medical "professional" to their governing body?

If not then do it. 

If we get enough of these cretins sacked then others will think twice about becoming an ATOSer.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 26, 2012)

Sonia Poulton and Simon Wessely *another Babbliopsychosocial 'expert'. Story all together on Black Triangles Site.

‘ME is no more ‘in the mind’ than MS’ ~ Professor Simon Wessely responds to journalist Sonia Poulton’s article



> Sonia Poulton 21 September at 06:30
> Woke to find a long e-mail from Professor Simon Wessley…for those who don’t know, he is the big State cheese when it comes to ME…for many people his name represents years of their personal misery.
> My recent article on ME, effectively, opposes his stance on the illness and I have been repeatedly warned that I can expect a communication from him…well it came…he says I ‘may be surprised to discover’ that he agrees with most of my article and then he goes on to detail how much of it he actually didn’t like at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 26, 2012)

For any one who wonders why I'm posting these types of articles here.. It's these people who have been advising governments about the WRA and WCA since way back in the early 90s and are the reason we're going through so much shit now to prove that we are sick and disabled.


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 26, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Have you reported your medical "professional" to their governing body?
> 
> If not then do it.
> 
> If we get enough of these cretins sacked then others will think twice about becoming an ATOSer.


 
I pointed out at the tribunal that the name given for the assessor was the same as the DSS doctor who had assessed me two years before, but was clearly a different person, despite there only being one qualified doctor with that name registered with the BMA.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 26, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Sonia Poulton and Simon Wessely *another Babbliopsychosocial 'expert'. Story all together on Black Triangles Site.
> 
> ‘ME is no more ‘in the mind’ than MS’ ~ Professor Simon Wessely responds to journalist Sonia Poulton’s article


 
Wessely attempting to verbally bully and/or patronise those who disagree with him isn't novel behaviour for him, and for a psychiatrist he descends a little too often into self-pity for his own good. Perhaps he's depressed, eh?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 26, 2012)

His missus Clare Gerada could treat him.. or tell him to pull himself together.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 26, 2012)

Took himself to GP today and receptionist said "oh, we were just about to send off your doctor's report" (I assume requested by ATOS).  So I reckon that means we should be expecting an assessment soon 

Asked her if I could have a look and told me I wasn't allowed.  Was to be expected I suppose


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 26, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> I pointed out at the tribunal that the name given for the assessor was the same as the DSS doctor who had assessed me two years before, but was clearly a different person, despite there only being one qualified doctor with that name registered with the BMA.


Now that's interesting - does the DWP reuse doctors' names and identities in some fashion, or do they just get a kick out of blatantly lying to people?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Took himself to GP today and receptionist said "oh, we were just about to send off your doctor's report" (I assume requested by ATOS). So I reckon that means we should be expecting an assessment soon
> 
> Asked her if I could have a look and told me I wasn't allowed. Was to be expected I suppose


First, you could put in a data protection request to the surgery, and they would be obliged to hand over all information they hold about himself and his condition, so I suspect what she said was wrong.

Second, ATOS do sometimes make decisions based on information provided by the claimant and their GP/consultants without interviews. Yardie's case was like that. Don't lose heart yet.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 26, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> First, you could put in a data protection request to the surgery, and they would be obliged to hand over all information they hold about himself and his condition, so I suspect what she said was wrong.
> 
> Second, ATOS do sometimes make decisions based on information provided by the claimant and their GP/consultants without interviews. Yardie's case was like that. Don't lose heart yet.


 
Thing is, none of the doctors know him.  I reckon we've met 3 or 4 of them but only once, so fuck knows what information they'll have supplied  

We're not being lucky at the moment so I'm not in an optimistic mood


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 26, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Thing is, none of the doctors know him. I reckon we've met 3 or 4 of them but only once, so fuck knows what information they'll have supplied
> 
> We're not being lucky at the moment so I'm not in an optimistic mood


He's fairly unique, you think they would!!!!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 26, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> He's fairly unique, you think they would!!!!!


 


That's one word for him I suppose


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## Frankie Jack (Sep 26, 2012)

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/debates/?id=2012-09-13a.532.0
Michael Meacher and Mark Hoban debate on Colin Traynor and the WCA. 

I fucking hate Hoban alrady..


----------



## ericjarvis (Sep 26, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Now that's interesting - does the DWP reuse doctors' names and identities in some fashion, or do they just get a kick out of blatantly lying to people?


 
My guess is that they just get whoever happens to be handy to sign off any assessments the medical professional/amateur neglected to sign at the time. Alternatively it may just be that they can never read the handwriting and just have to guess.

What concerns me most is that the DWP have NO access to the original notes, nor to ANYTHING to confirm the medical professional's credentials, or even identity. It's a system built to enable fraud... by ATOS.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Took himself to GP today and receptionist said "oh, we were just about to send off your doctor's report" (I assume requested by ATOS). So I reckon that means we should be expecting an assessment soon
> 
> Asked her if I could have a look and told me I wasn't allowed. Was to be expected I suppose


 Which is stupid as when you request a copy of you DWP notes for appeal you get a copy of the doctors report as well.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 27, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Which is stupid as when you request a copy of you DWP notes for appeal you get a copy of the doctors report as well.


 
Oh, never knew that.  Should be interesting to find out what a doctor who's only met him once has to say about him


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, never knew that. Should be interesting to find out what a doctor who's only met him once has to say about him


 Probably not much.

All mine said was "2004 head MRI scan - clear" and that was it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 27, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Probably not much.
> 
> All mine said was "2004 head MRI scan - clear" and that was it.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Sep 28, 2012)

Sacked by the DWP for mental illness, Found fit to work by Atos.
A Daily Express link..


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2012)

Former Marine who lost leg in Afghanistan is judged fit for work by Atos
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/royal-marine-who-lost-limb-1347913


> Aaron, from Bolton, said: “He read out my injuries, including the amputation, before examining me.
> 
> “He asked me to point down my left foot, then my right foot, and I said, ‘I haven’t got a right foot’ and he said, ‘Oh, right’.
> 
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Sep 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Former Marine who lost leg in Afghanistan is judged fit for work by Atos<snip>


Why am I not surprised?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Why am I not surprised?


Me neither


----------



## Quartz (Sep 29, 2012)

Umm... he may not be fit for manual labour but the loss of his leg won't affect his ability to do clerical work, will it? It's his other injuries - especially the spinal and pelvic ones - that strike me as more important.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 29, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Umm... he may not be fit for manual labour but the loss of his leg won't affect his ability to do clerical work, will it?<snip>


It could do if the pain from it (or the side effects of painkillers taken to control the pain) make it difficult to concentrate for long.


----------



## Quartz (Sep 29, 2012)

Well yes, but those would be required for his other injuries - in particular the spinal and pelvic ones - not the amputation. Basically the article has a bad title and it's badly reported. They've gone for the most visible injury and not the ones which are most likely most problematic.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 29, 2012)

Regardless of what he may or may not theoretically be able to do why should someone with one leg be compelled to look for work? Life's already dealt him a fairly cruel blow in depriving him of one of his pins - What does it benefit anyone to compound his misery by making him work?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Well yes, but those would be required for his other injuries - in particular the spinal and pelvic ones - not the amputation. Basically the article has a bad title and it's badly reported. They've gone for the most visible injury and not the ones which are most likely most problematic.


Quite often amputation of a leg can lead to chronic pain and problems with the stump not healing properly or being aggravated by wearing an artificial limb. There's also phantom pain to deal with, as well as potentially PTSD, not to mention a whole of other issues. You cannot state that the amputation and associated problems do not require pain meds.

As the marine himself put it, he lost his leg serving his country and now the government has turned its back on him. He deserves to be supported for the service he gave.

You should work with ATOS with an attitude like that.


----------



## Quartz (Sep 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Quite often amputation of a leg can lead to chronic pain and problems with the stump not healing properly or being aggravated by wearing an artificial limb.


 
Not in the longer term. I have worked with amputees - both military and non-military - before.


----------



## quimcunx (Sep 30, 2012)

Celt said:


> I very much regret not having had it recorded or having had someone with me.


 

Hi, Celt.  Glad you got through your assessment.  Hope it turns out ok. 

Are you still allowed to record using your own equipment? 

I don't come on this thread very often, and too late for you, but I'll repeat my offer from earlier.  If anyone has an ATOS appt coming up and would like to make sure it's recorded on their own equipment for whatever reason but doesn't have access  to or can't afford to buy a recording device, let me know. I'll gladly buy them a dictation thingy or whatever suitable device and only ask that they then make it available to be passed on to anyone else facing the same thing.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 30, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Umm... he may not be fit for manual labour but the loss of his leg won't affect his ability to do clerical work, will it? It's his other injuries - especially the spinal and pelvic ones - that strike me as more important.


 If the HCP doesn't know what a leg is you don't expect them to know what a spine or pelvis is do you.


----------



## Quartz (Sep 30, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> If the HCP doesn't know what a leg is you don't expect them to know what a spine or pelvis is do you.


 
It's a good example of the general incompetence of ATOS.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Umm... he may not be fit for manual labour but the loss of his leg won't affect his ability to do clerical work, will it? It's his other injuries - especially the spinal and pelvic ones - that strike me as more important.


 
Even setting aside his other injuries, phantom pain from an amputation can be severe enough to require constant strong analgesia. If that is the case, he'd be useless for *anything* requiring a modicum of sustained concentration.
It's often not the injury itself that's the issue, it's the after-effects and how they have to be dealt with that make things complicated and too complex to be dealt with in 20-45 minute "assessment".


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Not in the longer term. I have worked with amputees - both military and non-military - before.


The medical community disagrees:


This paper talks about using spinal cord stimulation to deal with chronic limb amputation pain, reporting one patient used this technique with decreasing benefit over 19 years:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23009132

This paper talks about pain after amputation (225 participants):
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10943752

This paper (full-text available) [*WARNING: GRAPHIC IMAGES*] describes in detail the problems found in reconstruction after IED explosions:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3013433/

In particular, it mentions that 63% of stumps experience heterotopic ossification (bone growing where it's not supposed to in soft tissues ) which can make wearing a prosthetic difficult, that there may be insufficient fat and muscle tissue for a prosthetic (although where reconstruction is successful there is less ulceration than expected after wearing a prosthetic).


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Even setting aside his other injuries, phantom pain from an amputation can be severe enough to require constant strong analgesia. If that is the case, he'd be useless for *anything* requiring a modicum of sustained concentration.
> It's often not the injury itself that's the issue, it's the after-effects and how they have to be dealt with that make things complicated and too complex to be dealt with in 20-45 minute "assessment".


80mg oxycontin twice daily is, iirc, one such analgesic used for phantom pain - which is 16 times the dose I'm on for my chronic spinal arthritic pain. Not to mention the problems with sitting during the day and sleeping at night.


----------



## Celt (Sep 30, 2012)

chronic pain can occur without obvious cause,

and its this fact that causes people, medics anyone to just not be able to get their head round the adequate and appropriate treatment of pain.


----------



## Quartz (Oct 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The medical community disagrees:


 
I didn't know that. I guess my colleagues were lucky, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The medical community disagrees:
> 
> 
> This paper talks about using spinal cord stimulation to deal with chronic limb amputation pain, reporting one patient used this technique with decreasing benefit over 19 years:
> ...


 
Osteophytes, i.e. pieces of bone growing where they shouldn't in sites of constant use (especially but not confined to joints), are a common phenomenon in humans, so I'm not surprised that amputees with prosthetics end up with them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> 80mg oxycontin twice daily is, iirc, one such analgesic used for phantom pain - which is 16 times the dose I'm on for my chronic spinal arthritic pain. Not to mention the problems with sitting during the day and sleeping at night.


 
80mg x 2 a day being a large enough dose that even given the degree of pain it is being used to treat, you're going to form psychological and physiological dependencies to it, too.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Osteophytes, i.e. pieces of bone growing where they shouldn't in sites of constant use (especially but not confined to joints), are a common phenomenon in humans, so I'm not surprised that amputees with prosthetics end up with them.


One theory is that amputees experience this after IED explosions because of head injuries incurred at the same time - the head injury is thought to affect the mechanism by which bone regrowth occurs. The paper I posted the link to was very interesting on this topic.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 1, 2012)

<snip> bad day.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> <snip> bad day.


{{{audiotech}}} feel better soon.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> <snip> bad day.


I hope tomorrow's better (or at least easier) for you.  Hang on in there.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 1, 2012)

Thanks both, stuck some medication under my tongue and it's eased. Vascular constrictor though, which means if I'm not careful, either my toes, or fingers could drop off .

Edit: Just thought, if that happened I wouldn't be able to "push a button" and Atosser wouldn't assess me as "fit for Work", or would they?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Thanks both, stuck some medication under my tongue and it's eased. Vascular constrictor though, which means if I'm not careful, either my toes, or fingers could drop off .
> 
> Edit: Just thought, if that happened I wouldn't be able to "push a button" and Atosser wouldn't assess me as "fit for Work", or would they?


Well if you could push a button of some description with the stump that was left, then I think they would, sadly.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 1, 2012)

audiotech said:


> <snip>Edit: Just thought, if that happened I wouldn't be able to "push a button" and Atosser wouldn't assess me as "fit for Work", or would they?


You could still push a button with your nose, chin, or forehead.  Take up thy bed and walk


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2012)

Please tell me ATOS aren't involved in any armed forces rehab centres anywhere....

'What do you mean, you've had both legs blown off and part of your left arm? You can still press a button with your other hand, can't you?'


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 2, 2012)

Blimey. After being driven to despair by the DWP I'm now having money thrown at me. First I got into the ESA support group, then my DLA claim was approved, now it seems I'll probably get Serious Disability Premium, which I'd never even heard of. All of these payments are backdated for months and months because the whole process has taken so long, so I keep finding that a couple of grand has suddenly arrived in my bank account. It's all because I subscribed to the benefitsandwork.co.uk service - the best £19 I ever spent. I followed their advice to the letter and finally passed my ATOS medical at the third attempt.

One of the B&W top tips is never to simply ask your GP to answer a question on a form or write a letter - you have to give him or her a draft of what you want, or a list of points. And don't let anyone send anything on your behalf - you need to check it, maybe get it rewritten, control who it's sent to, make copies, attach them to other forms and so on.

So I gave my GP a list and he cottoned on to how important it was to my mental health to stop the ATOS/DWP torture, so he wrote that I was on suicide watch. I like to think that it wasn't quite that bad. But maybe it was close. And I would never have been that bad if the DWP hadn't suspended my ESA, which led to my housing benefits being stopped too. Anyway, I reckon that letter is worth £££££.

So if anyone wants me to send them some benefitsandwork documents just say so. You're also welcome to borrow my secret squirrel covert recording devices for your ATOS medical. I've got an audio one and a video one.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 2, 2012)

Great news Frumious B. 
So satisfying to sort the buggers.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 2, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Blimey. After being driven to despair by the DWP I'm now having money thrown at me.<snip>









  Glad to hear it, and not before time.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2012)

Brilliant news, Frusemious B, well done you


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Blimey. After being driven to despair by the DWP I'm now having money thrown at me. First I got into the ESA support group, then my DLA claim was approved, now it seems I'll probably get Serious Disability Premium, which I'd never even heard of. All of these payments are backdated for months and months because the whole process has taken so long, so I keep finding that a couple of grand has suddenly arrived in my bank account. It's all because I subscribed to the benefitsandwork.co.uk service - the best £19 I ever spent. I followed their advice to the letter and finally passed my ATOS medical at the third attempt.


 
I've been a suscriber for 4-5 years now. Worth every penny, even though it can be hard to afford.



> One of the B&W top tips is never to simply ask your GP to answer a question on a form or write a letter - you have to give him or her a draft of what you want, or a list of points. And don't let anyone send anything on your behalf - you need to check it, maybe get it rewritten, control who it's sent to, make copies, attach them to other forms and so on.


 
Agreed. I haven't needed a letter for DLA or ESA yet (I'm still on IB), but I'll be doing so, even if I have to pay for it (about £50 from my GP surgery). Of course, my other problem is that I haven't seen a specialist for over a decade, which could count against me in an ESA assessment, but why would I waste a consultant's time when all they're going to do is say "keep taking the tablets" (even so, I'm currently hoping for a rheumatology appt from my GP, plus she wants to send me to the "memory clinic")?



> So I gave my GP a list and he cottoned on to how important it was to my mental health to stop the ATOS/DWP torture, so he wrote that I was on suicide watch. I like to think that it wasn't quite that bad. But maybe it was close. And I would never have been that bad if the DWP hadn't suspended my ESA, which led to my housing benefits being stopped too. Anyway, I reckon that letter is worth £££££.


 
TBF, "suicide watch" can mean anything from constant monitoring under commitment, to getting you to come in once a fortnight or month to discuss hoe you're doing. It's a nice "loose" phrase. 



> So if anyone wants me to send them some benefitsandwork documents just say so. You're also welcome to borrow my secret squirrel covert recording devices for your ATOS medical. I've got an audio one and a video one.


 
I've forwarded the B & W "how to" documents to at least a dozen people, most of whom have said how useful they are. I've also used them for my own and other claims, all of which that have had good results!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2012)

I keep wondering to myself if Frumious B's surname is Andersnatch.


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 2, 2012)

I tried Bandersnatch but it was too many characters.


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 2, 2012)

The latest newsletter from the B&W peeps. Read it and weep.




> *ESA MAY BE STOPPED FOR CLAIMANTS WHO TRY TO APPEAL*
> The DWP has now released their response to the ‘consultation’ on a mandatory revision before appeal system. Under the new system, claimants who wish to challenge most benefits decision will be prevented from lodging an appeal with the Tribunals Service until the DWP have had another look at the decision. There is no time limit for how long the DWP can spend on this mandatory reconsideration.
> 
> This is particularly important for ESA claimants who are found fit for work, as they are legally prevented from continuing to receive the assessment rate of ESA until they have lodged an appeal.
> ...


 
This is making me feel quite uncomfortable - it's survivor's guilt. All of a sudden I'm doing well but lots of others are being thrown in the gutter. The suicide rate just has to be rocketing.


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I haven't needed a letter for DLA or ESA yet (I'm still on IB)


 
VP, have they said you will be called to an ATOS medical? Or are you likely to be put in the support group without one?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> The latest newsletter from the B&W peeps. Read it and weep.
> 
> This is making me feel quite uncomfortable - it's survivor's guilt. All of a sudden I'm doing well but lots of others are being thrown in the gutter. The suicide rate just has to be rocketing.


 
Please don't feel guilty. You are entitled to this financial help. The ones who should feel guilty are the people making the decision to leave others in financial hell.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> VP, have they said you will be called to an ATOS medical? Or are you likely to be put in the support group without one?




I'be got an "indefinite" DLA award at the highest rate for both components. I haven't had an IB medical for more than a decade, and my last renewal form was 2006, passed on the submitted form. I don't know whether that makes me more or less likely to be put in the support group without an assessment, but I'm not going to take anything for granted.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> VP, have they said you will be called to an ATOS medical? Or are you likely to be put in the support group without one?


I'm not saying that it's a constant worry every day for VP and I, but all long term plans of doing anything remotely expensive are on hold for the foreseeable future.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 3, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'be got an "indefinite" DLA award at the highest rate for both components. I haven't had an IB medical for more than a decade, and my last renewal form was 2006, passed on the submitted form. I don't know whether that makes me more or less likely to be put in the support group without an assessment, but I'm not going to take anything for granted.


 
When they wrote to you in 2006 did the letter say when your claim would next be up for renewal? Coz around that time is probably when they'll migrate you onto ESA/call you in for a medical/do whatever they're going to do. That's how it was for me anyway, I've recently had my medical - fuck knows how it went TBH, the atos person seemed ok & didn't ask any questions that I thought were unreasonable, but while they appear sympathetic, you don't what it is that they're typing about you. Just have to wait now.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> When they wrote to you in 2006 did the letter say when your claim would next be up for renewal?<snip>


No it didn't.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 3, 2012)

Mandatory consideration of revision before appeal
Government response to public consultation
September 2012 pdf. 
Cuppa, read, etc.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 3, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> This is making me feel quite uncomfortable - it's survivor's guilt. All of a sudden I'm doing well but lots of others are being thrown in the gutter. The suicide rate just has to be rocketing.



Don't you even think like that ok.. x


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

> [Authors of Our Own Misfortune?: The Problems with Psychogenic Explanations for Physical Illnesses
> 
> Since the advent of "medicine" as a discrete practice, beliefs that bodily illness can somehow be caused by psychological, emotional, and behavioural "disorder" have been claimed by many in the discipline. Such beliefs became less creditable as scientific methods of detecting disease developed, with discoveries such as the physiological and anatomical abnormalities in Parkinson's disease and Multiple Sclerosis, for example, and the organisms causing syphilis and duodenal ulcers. Nevertheless, psychogenic explanations for illnesses still appear frequently within medical and academic literature, in "common sense" public discourses, and in medical diagnoses of patients. But how plausible are these explanations?
> 
> http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0857181017/ref=dp_proddesc_1?ie=UTF8&n=266239/


 

New book by the eminent sociologist Angela Kennedy about the psychologising of many physical illnesses(such as that promoted by the Wesseley School for M.E) and the rationale/agenda behind it..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 3, 2012)

These biopsychosocial babblers will be around for a long time I fear.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

> *We're not used to federal agencies moving forward with alacrity on ME/CFS issues, but last month’s 90-minute FDA teleconference with chronic fatigue syndrome stakeholders indicated the FDA is doing just that.*(When “Occupy CFS” blogger Jennie Spotila is happy, somebody is making progress; check out her blog here.)  Articulate, and obviously sharp as a tack, Sandra Kweder, MD, deputy director of FDA’s Office of New Drugs, led the telephone conference call.
> 
> She quickly demolished any concerns about whether the FDA believes chronic fatigue syndrome is a ‘serious and life-threatening disorder’ - stating that the agency considers ME/CFS on a par with cancer, diabetes, epilepsy, heart failure and other serious diseases. This was an important statement, given that ‘serious and life-threatening’ is a key criterion in the FDA’s decisions on drugs selected for expedited review.
> http://www.prohealth.com/library/showarticle.cfm?libid=17241


The FDA recently had a telephone conference about ME/CFS, this is very good news for PWME


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> The FDA recently had a telephone conference about ME/CFS, this is very good news for PWME


Provisionally yes, but not if it gets PWME put on SSRIs, given CBT, and forced to increase their activity levels.  Half a cheer until I hear further details.


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

> Greebo said
> Provisionally yes, but not if it gets PWME put on SSRIs, given CBT, and forced to increase their activity levels. Half a cheer until I hear further details.


 


> stating that the agency considers ME/CFS on a par with cancer, diabetes, epilepsy, heart failure and other serious diseases


 
Of course, but these may lead to bio-chemical interventions, cancer is not treated by the unholy three, is it?


----------



## treelover (Oct 3, 2012)

should these two quotes(Greebo's and the FDA's view) have been the other way around?


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 3, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Mandatory consideration of revision before appeal
> Government response to public consultation
> September 2012 pdf.
> Cuppa, read, etc.


Thanks, but I'll just leave the B&W boffins to summarise it for me.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

treelover said:


> Of course, but these may lead to bio-chemical interventions, cancer is not treated by the unholy three, is it?


I'd settle for properly competent research, using large samples, into epidemiology and aetiology to start with.  Management and treatment would be the desperately needed icing on the cake.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 3, 2012)

> *Get ready for work: what woman who needs constant care was told*
> 
> Ruth Anim has learning difficulties, a heart problem and epilepsy. A work capability test by Atos said she should prepare for a job


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/03/work-woman-care?CMP=twt_gu&fb=optOut


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/03/work-woman-care?CMP=twt_gu&fb=optOut


That makes me very angry, although it's what urbanites have been saying for months - the assessment is not set up to deal with complex health conditions including learning disabilities and mental health conditions.

I think this quote sums up everything I've heard about the assessment:


> An Atos Healthcare spokesperson said: "We apologise for any discrepancy in our report and any distress this may have caused


 
A discrepancy!!!!! Ruth Anim was described as a 27 year old male client, ffs. That's not a 'discrepancy', that's pure incompetence.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/oct/03/work-woman-care?CMP=twt_gu&fb=optOut


In my arrogant opinion, the barely human being who did that assessment suffers from unhelpful cognitions, which I'd willingly put right with a curry comb and some chilli oil.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 4, 2012)

here is a video of Ruth Anim. The woman ATOS put in the Wrag.. !!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2012/oct/04/welfare-assessors-disabled-work-video


----------



## spirals (Oct 4, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> here is a video of Ruth Anim. The woman ATOS put in the Wrag.. !!
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2012/oct/04/welfare-assessors-disabled-work-video


 
That made me so mad I cried  FFS


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 4, 2012)

Aye. Me too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 4, 2012)

> *10,600 sick & disabled people died last year within six weeks of their claim ending*
> 
> Posted on October 4, 2012 by JJ
> 
> ...


http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...-year-within-six-weeks-of-their-claim-ending/


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 4, 2012)

> *Black Triangle* ‏@*blacktriangle1*
> Bindmans human rights lawyers are looking for anyone who is disabled in any way who has had their benefits refused... http://fb.me/wTawgXW0


----------



## laptop (Oct 4, 2012)

Greebo said:


> all long term plans of doing anything remotely expensive are on hold for the foreseeable future.


 
That'll do the economic recovery a lot of good 

Back in the early "OMG!!!" days of the financial crash I recall Polly Toynbee doing an uncharacteristically sane piece, pointing out that the best stimulus the government could make to the economy would be to hand large wodges of used twenties to unemployed people, who would spend them immediately... looked, but not yet found it.


----------



## treelover (Oct 4, 2012)

at last, this should have happened years ago, but better late than never...


----------



## treelover (Oct 4, 2012)

at last, this should have happened years ago, but better late than never...

Weird, replied to Rutita, but her quote never appeared..


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

''The Government will hit the unemployed with the requirement next year that jobseekers claiming JSA or its equivalent under the Universal Credit will have to show they are spending 35 hours a week looking for work. Later this year they intend to replace the DWP jobsearch website of Jobcentre Plus with the Universal Jobmatch system, whic will require claimants to log into to monitor their jobsearch efforts. If a claimant does not search for work for a minimum of 35 hours a week, they will face 8 weeks sanctions for a first offence, 6 months sanctions for a second offence. This is totally ridiculous and was dreamt up by IDS and Lord Freud, saying that the unemployed should not be allowed to sit at home doing nothing

post on CIf, I can imagine this being chaos, but also some bright spark will create a bit of software so it looks like someone is logged in, etc..

btw, who is going to pay for always on net access, a PC, etc..

what about disabled people/people with MH issues who have failed ATOS test, how on earth could someone with ME spend that long on the net?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 5, 2012)

laptop said:


> That'll do the economic recovery a lot of good
> 
> Back in the early "OMG!!!" days of the financial crash I recall Polly Toynbee doing an uncharacteristically sane piece, pointing out that the best stimulus the government could make to the economy would be to hand large wodges of used twenties to unemployed people, who would spend them immediately... looked, but not yet found it.



I remember that vaguely. These Tory arseholes don't realise that the billions they cut from welfare benefits takes the same away from the economy too. 

We don't stash those pitiful few £s away in tax havens, we use them to get the basics to exist..!!


----------



## toggle (Oct 5, 2012)

treelover said:


> ''The Government will hit the unemployed with the requirement next year that jobseekers claiming JSA or its equivalent under the Universal Credit will have to show they are spending 35 hours a week looking for work. Later this year they intend to replace the DWP jobsearch website of Jobcentre Plus with the Universal Jobmatch system, whic will require claimants to log into to monitor their jobsearch efforts. If a claimant does not search for work for a minimum of 35 hours a week, they will face 8 weeks sanctions for a first offence, 6 months sanctions for a second offence. This is totally ridiculous and was dreamt up by IDS and Lord Freud, saying that the unemployed should not be allowed to sit at home doing nothing
> 
> post on CIf, I can imagine this being chaos, but also some bright spark will create a bit of software so it looks like someone is logged in, etc..
> 
> ...


 
and this is assuming that looking online is the only wy to search for work.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 5, 2012)

Warning from The Full Facts about a con man offering help with

* Disability Living Allowance *
*Attendance Allowance *
*Employment And Support Allowance *
*Housing Benefit *
*Jobseeker's Allowance *
*Income Support *
*Industrial Injuries Benefit*
on Tribunal Representation South west

Seems its a git called Leigh Windsor who will charge £200 for help with WCA tribunal who is actually this arsehole..

Charity lottery boss pocketed £273,000 of ticket money and went on the holiday meant to be top prize *Daily Fail link*



> The boss of a charity lottery has been jailed for pocketing thousands of pounds and taking his family on the dream holiday which was supposed to be the star prize.
> Millionaire Leigh Windsor, aged 46, stole £273,000 from two air ambulance charities and picked phantom winners from the phone book after fiddling the draws.
> He creamed off the first three months of payments from thousands of customers who joined up because they believed they were supporting charity.


 

​​


----------



## treelover (Oct 5, 2012)

Good spot, what an odious creature, i suspect we will see more of this as legal aid is withdrawn...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 5, 2012)

Arsehole has "Ask about my no win no fee service" at the bottom of the page.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 5, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> here is a video of Ruth Anim. The woman ATOS put in the Wrag.. !!
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/video/2012/oct/04/welfare-assessors-disabled-work-video


 
on BBC news this evening


----------



## Quartz (Oct 6, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> This is making me feel quite uncomfortable - it's survivor's guilt.


 
Don't. Taxpayers pay these funds so that people in need - like you - get the care and funds they need. After all, it might be them or someone about whom they care next.


----------



## treelover (Oct 6, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> on BBC news this evening


 
Not national though..


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 10, 2012)

Not read up or looked into this yet. Good plan or perhaps a way of passing the buck to the NHS via this Salus body? 

Disabled Scots spared Atos assessment after firm forced into retreat thanks to Record campaign



> Atos will continue to carry out “work capability assessments” in Scotland for employment and support allowance, which replaced incapacity benefit.
> But the PIP assessments due to begin next June will now be done by Salus, the occupational health arm of NHS Lanarkshire. Atos signed a £22million deal for the work with Salus last week.
> Salus are a social enterprise, with profits from outside contracts ploughed back into patient care.
> NHS Lanarkshire promised yesterday: “We are committed to ensuring that everyone assessed is treated with dignity and receives a professional service.
> ...


----------



## Celt (Oct 10, 2012)

curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was.   I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts!  I'm not sure, have I just made support group?


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2012)

Celt said:


> curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was.   I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then
> 
> she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts!  I'm not sure, have I just made support group?



This seems a rather unorthodox assessment follow up but who knows with the current system.  Sorry but not the support group 15 points puts you into the WRAG which is 12 monts contribution based ESA or longer if you are non contribution with conditionality of undertaking work related activity (WTF  that is who knows )


----------



## Celt (Oct 10, 2012)

ah ok, well will see how that works out, but rather relieved - i think


----------



## ash (Oct 10, 2012)

Yes part of the battle is won it is difficult to get into the WRAG, sad that it is a victory to prove that your disability is severe enough not to be able to work!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2012)

> *Disabled Scots spared Atos assessment after firm forced into retreat thanks to Record campaign*
> 
> 
> THE Record has been congratulated, by politicians and campaigners, for helping force Atos into retreat by exposing the stories of disabled Scots who were denied benefits by the firm.


 

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/disabled-scots-spared-atos-assessment-1370433


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2012)

Rebranding and distancing? Same shit different provider? :faceplam:


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2012)

Don't know why the politicians are congratulating the Record, they should be offering their abject apologies for allowing such a situation to develop. If the politicians had done their job properly in the first place there wouldn't be anything to fix. 

I am pleased for the Record though, sterling work from them. The national papers could learn a lot - it comes to something when the red tops are kicking off on these issues, it's the Record & the Mirror that have done a lot of collation and investigation on this issue.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 10, 2012)

Atos giving PiP back to the SNHS while taking a cut. Also these Salus OT people work with the Biopsychosocial shite as well.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 10, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Atos giving PiP back to the SNHS while taking a cut. Also these *Salus* OT people work with the *Biopsychosocial shite* as well.


 
http://www.salus.co.uk/Pages/default.aspx



> *Criticism*
> 
> Some critics point out this question of distinction and of determination of the roles of illness and disease runs against the growing concept of the patient–medical tradesperson partnership or patient empowerment, as "biopsychosocial" becomes one more disingenuous euphemism for psychosomatic illness.[20] *This may be exploited by medical insurance companies or government welfare departments eager to limit or deny access to medical and social care*.[21]


 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biopsychosocial_model


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 10, 2012)

Salus Absence Management 



> EASY is an innovative absence management service designed to improve attendance at work.   We are one of the very few organisations in the UK which utilise the bio psychosocial model as recommended by Dame Carol Black in her report "Working for a Healthier Tomorrow" (2008).  EASY supports and engages with every employee from their first day of absence until the end of their absence.  The service is completely transferable as an adjunct to any organisation's Sickness Absence Policy, with the goal of promoting the earliest healthy return to work.



Reads like employees are harrassed from day one of illness to get back to works again.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 11, 2012)

> Hi thanks for the comments. Whats happening at the moment is I received a letter the next day, which was dated the date of the assessment...advising me not to attend the assessment....I think this is very strange indeed. The letter also says we have received more information...Yet to find out what this information is....
> dirtytrainers   in reply to charleykitty 1 day ago


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Salus Absence Management
> 
> 
> 
> Reads like employees are harrassed from day one of illness to get back to works again.


My HR department rang me when I was in hospital, and that was after two months off sick. If it's the first day of absence with my chronic pain, if the phone isn't by the bed I can't actually get out of bed to answer it, plus I can often have a bad attack for 'only' 24-36 hours so I'll likely only need one day, maybe two off work. If it's the first day of absence with my kidney problems I'm likely to be puking for Olympic gold or concentrating on staying upright and getting to the GP for the meds. I know from experience my brain shuts down all non-essential functions like comprehension and coherent speech so if someone phones me I won't make any sense. The length of absence is then unpredictable.

If someone phones me from day 1, I'm reporting them for harassment. Sickness absence isn't solved with firm encouragement.


----------



## Celt (Oct 11, 2012)

Celt said:


> curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was. I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts! I'm not sure, have I just made support group?





ash said:


> This seems a rather unorthodox assessment follow up but who knows with the current system. Sorry but not the support group 15 points puts you into the WRAG which is 12 monts contribution based ESA or longer if you are non contribution with conditionality of undertaking work related activity (WTF that is who knows )





Celt said:


> ah ok, well will see how that works out, but rather relieved - i think





ash said:


> Yes part of the battle is won it is difficult to get into the WRAG, sad that it is a victory to prove that your disability is severe enough not to be able to work!


 
I'm still rather disbelieving, the conversation with the job centre lady was very, very odd, I think I'm only going to believe this when I have it in writing.   It is a very empty victory for want of a better word.  So what happens in WRAG ?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 11, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Don't know why the politicians are congratulating the Record, they should be offering their abject apologies for allowing such a situation to develop. If the politicians had done their job properly in the first place there wouldn't be anything to fix.



You're presupposing that those politicians give a tupenny toss about doing their jobs properly for their constituents , rather than for their party line. This is just a bit of flim-flam to make the public think they give a shit.


> I am pleased for the Record though, sterling work from them. The national papers could learn a lot - it comes to something when the red tops are kicking off on these issues, it's the Record & the Mirror that have done a lot of collation and investigation on this issue.


Now if only they'd try a bit harder on other papers, we might have half a chance.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

I got the dreaded brown envelope, which I forgot to open yesterday because I'm stressed and it ended up buried under a newspaper.

Any guesses what it said?


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2012)




----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I got the dreaded brown envelope, which I forgot to open yesterday because I'm stressed and it ended up buried under a newspaper.
> 
> Any guesses what it said?


How thick is it and what size?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> How thick is it and what size?


 
Not very thick (ie. four or five pages). C5 sized envelope


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not very thick (ie. four or five pages). C5 sized envelope


Have you opened it yet? Only we're all here to help work out what it means, if you want us to.

Sounds like the decision letter to me.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

I have opened it and it is the decision letter.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 14, 2012)

Do you need to put the kettle on?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I got the dreaded brown envelope, which I forgot to open yesterday because I'm stressed and it ended up buried under a newspaper.
> 
> Any guesses what it said?


Minnie with something like that I never guess. Get yourself a cuppa, then open it. Please.  If there's any justice at all, it'll be good news.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

I've opened it! 

I was getting you lot to guess the decision


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 14, 2012)

Support group.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Support Group


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Support group.


 
Yep!  Support Group, no medical

Do you think I'd be teasing you all if it was the WRAG.  I'd be on here ranting and raving


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Many thanks to all those (you know who you are) who helped me with over 40 pages of supplementary information.  

Now, what do I do now?  Ring them up and ask how many points he got and how long he's got it for and is this for real and not a mistake and for copy of erm... stuff?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep! Support Group, no medical
> 
> Do you think I'd be teasing you all if it was the WRAG. I'd be on here ranting and raving


WOO-HOO!!!!!!!!!!
SENSE HAS PREVALIED!!!!!!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Many thanks to all those (you know who you are) who helped me with over 40 pages of supplementary information.
> 
> Now, what do I do now? Ring them up and ask how many points he got and how long he's got it for and is this for real and not a mistake and for copy of erm... stuff?


Is all that not in the letter?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

I admit, going on past performance I had fully expected them to invite him for assessment. I'm so glad they haven't


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> WOO-HOO!!!!!!!!!!
> SENSE HAS PREVALIED!!!!!!


 
Yep, but for how long.  I've heard of people starting the process all over again a few months later


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Is all that not in the letter?


 
Nope.  Nothing except when he moves onto ESA (ie. in a couple of weeks)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I admit, going on past performance I had fully expected them to invite him for assessment. I'm so glad they haven't


 
So am I.  Have enough stress at the moment without the stress of him answering questions at an assesssment incorrectly


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep, but for how long. I've heard of people starting the process all over again a few months later


Benefits and Work show 2-3 years before the next medical, but I think you'll have to phone them to find out for sure.


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 14, 2012)

Welcome to the support group Minnie, proud to have you aboard. Leave your coat in the cloakroom and join us in the club lounge for champagne cocktails.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Benefits and Work show 2-3 years before the next medical, but I think you'll have to phone them to find out for sure.


 
Yes, but I've read of other people who said after decision, they got a new form 3 or 6 months later


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Welcome to the support group Minnie, proud to have you aboard. Leave your coat in the cloakroom and join us in the club lounge for champagne cocktails.


 
Would love to celebrate but too stressed at moment, so you can have my glass


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2012)

Great news Minnie. I'm made up for you, they've got a decision right.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Now I'm wondering how long before I get the new DLA/PIP form


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Now I'm wondering how long before I get the new DLA/PIP form


You can't panic, otherwise you'll be fretting forever. Take a deep breath.


----------



## Favelado (Oct 14, 2012)

Fuck. I'm dreading all this shit if I have to come back home. Glad it worked out for you Minnie.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can't panic, otherwise you'll be fretting forever. Take a deep breath.


 
Nah, that's the least of my worries at the moment.  Have two other things weighing me down at the moment.  Will find the answer to one of them on Friday though


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Favelado said:


> Fuck. I'm dreading all this shit if I have to come back home. Glad it worked out for you Minnie.


 
Same as.  It's only been almost three months of waiting since I returned form


----------



## Greebo (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would love to celebrate but too stressed at moment, so you can have my glass


Which is exactly why you need to celebrate this. The rest of your worries will still be there in the morning, and it's horrible that your friend has to be in such a bad state to be transferred from IB to ESA without a medical etc.

But small victories, eh? And this isn't small. Each one who makes it gives hope for the others.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Which is exactly why you need to celebrate this. The rest of your worries will still be there in the morning, and it's horrible that your friend has to be in such a bad state to be transferred from IB to ESA without a medical etc.
> 
> But small victories, eh? And this isn't small. Each one who makes it gives hope for the others.


 
Will wait 'til Friday to see if we get any good news

In the meantime, found this as just one of many examples I've come across



> *Put in the ESA Support Group in February, now they want another Atos assessment!*
> 
> I transferred from Incapacity Benefit to ESA initially to WRAG but won appeal and was placed in Support Group February this year. In June I received another ESA50 to complete to start the process off again!!! Now they want me in for a medical next week.
> Nothing will change with all my conditions as verified by my GP and Consultants and will only worsen so why am I being persecuted? Apart from all my physical conditions I have agoraphobia and panic attacks which they have completed ignored and expect me to attend a medical!!
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 14, 2012)

I've found something I've never come across before.  Might be worth noting for anyone who has an assessment.  (Apols if it's been posted up before)

Don't know whether it's fact or speculation though, but wouldn't put it past ATOS



> Hi GOL, the assessor is under no instruction to cease the assessment at any point. If and I put the emphasis on the word if the assessor has agreed your partner has scored the necessary 15 points  they can curtail the assessment to prevent your partner racking up further points. This allows the JC+ DM to put your partner in the work related activity group when he should be in the support group. These people are not your friend, they have no agenda other than to rob you of or minimize the benefits you can receive. Do not be misled, wait for their decision and if it is less than 15 points you have an excellent case for and appeal


 
from here

http://dwpexamination.org/forum/atos-medical-assessment-centres/had-atos-medical-some-questions/


----------



## Libertad (Oct 14, 2012)




----------



## ash (Oct 14, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Will wait 'til Friday to see if we get any good news
> 
> In the meantime, found this as just one of many examples I've come across



I would seriously let this drop and stop researching and worrying  for a while. We got the same brown envelope last week support group no medical and consider it a major victory-ridiculous to be celebrating something that you are entitled to  continuing  (not really a gain is it but it feels like one). I know we have PIP to deal with soon but i was fully expecting my husband to have to go through a very demeaning medical and then for us to spend ages researching the appeal.  This feels like a reprieve for us I hope that you can feel some reprieve that I am sure is very deserved after all your work


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

ash said:


> I would seriously let this drop and stop researching and worrying for a while. We got the same brown envelope last week support group no medical and consider it a major victory-ridiculous to be celebrating something that you are entitled to continuing (not really a gain is it but it feels like one). I know we have PIP to deal with soon but i was fully expecting my husband to have to go through a very demeaning medical and then for us to spend ages researching the appeal. This feels like a reprieve for us I hope that you can feel some reprieve that I am sure is very deserved after all your work


 
I know what you mean, and it would be nice to celebrate, but at the moment I've got other worries.  However, just because we've won doesn't mean I'm not still keeping an eye out for info for other people who have yet to go through it, and I will be ringing them tomorrow, as I'm curious to find out how many points he got, and on what basis he got put into the support group.

Does feel like a weight has been lifted, but there's still another boulder on my shoulder


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

ash said:


> I would seriously let this drop and stop researching and worrying for a while. We got the same brown envelope last week support group no medical and consider it a major victory-ridiculous to be celebrating something that you are entitled to continuing (not really a gain is it but it feels like one). I know we have PIP to deal with soon but i was fully expecting my husband to have to go through a very demeaning medical and then for us to spend ages researching the appeal. This feels like a reprieve for us I hope that you can feel some reprieve that I am sure is very deserved after all your work


 
PS:  Congratulations, even if that's not really the appropriate word


----------



## ash (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> PS:  Congratulations, even if that's not really the appropriate word


Thanks- maybe we need to invent a new word for the congrats???  I know how you feel and I am still monitoring benefits and work and other websites and don't  suppose I will ever stop.  I agree we could all do with some holders for those boulders


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

ash said:


> Thanks- maybe we need to invent a new word for the congrats??? I know how you feel and I am still monitoring benefits and work and other websites and don't suppose I will ever stop. I agree we could all do with some holders for those boulders


 


There must be another word.   Where's that thread about words that need to be invented


----------



## Celt (Oct 15, 2012)

Glad you got the right decision.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

Cheers Celt


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> There must be another word. Where's that thread about words that need to be invented


Totes amazeballs?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Totes amazeballs?


 
I'll never remember that  

Maybe we should just stick with congratulations, as in congratulations for ATOS/DWP believing you


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I'll never remember that
> 
> Maybe we should just stick with congratulations, as in congratulations for ATOS/DWP believing you


'Wow' would do too - as in 'Wow! They actually believed me!'


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> 'Wow' would do too - as in 'Wow! They actually believed me!'


 
yes, and a lot quicker to type for people who may have upper mobility problems


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> yes, and a lot quicker to type for people who may have upper mobility problems


 I was going to say "or dyslexia" but you could get OWW which doesn't sound as positive.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> I was going to say "or dyslexia" but you could get OWW which doesn't sound as positive.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep! Support Group, no medical
> 
> Do you think I'd be teasing you all if it was the WRAG. I'd be on here ranting and raving


 
YES!!!!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> YES!!!!


 
Funnily enough, I went to bed last night, not so much relieved but more angry that we have to go through this shit rather than them just contacting doctors and believing doctors who say you're not fit enough to work.

As I said yesterday, too early to celebrate as I have another weight on my shoulders which seems to have just got heavier after receiving latest hospital letter


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Funnily enough, I went to bed last night, not so much relieved but more angry that we have to go through this shit rather than them just contacting doctors and believing doctors who say you're not fit enough to work.
> 
> As I said yesterday, too early to celebrate as I have another weight on my shoulders which seems to have just got heavier after receiving latest hospital letter


 
Sorry to hear that. 
Himself's chemo?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

Just rang to find out how long his award is for and was told 24 months (from 9 September), so looks like they made the decision as long ago as a month (ie. before GP's letter was sent).


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2012)

Quick question... a friend is appealing her WCA decision, the original assessment being with a nurse. She has Joint Hypermobility Disorder, is this something that should be assessed by a doctor in ATOS' guidelines?


----------



## yardbird (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Quick question... a friend is appealing her WCA decision, the original assessment being with a nurse. She has Joint Hypermobility Disorder, is this something that should be assessed by a doctor in ATOS' guidelines?


They don't think like that. On a bad day the cleaning lady may stand in. I've got MS and they had absolutely no idea.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Quick question... a friend is appealing her WCA decision, the original assessment being with a nurse. She has Joint Hypermobility Disorder, is this something that should be assessed by a doctor in ATOS' guidelines?


 
Can't help you, but I think equationgirl would know the answer to this.  She'll probably be along soon


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

yardbird said:


> They don't think like that. On a bad day the cleaning lady may stand in. I've got MS and they had absolutely no idea.


 
Yes, but if it is the case, she can at least request it surely?


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't help you, but I think equationgirl would know the answer to this. She'll probably be along soon


Cheers, I've spent the last few days trawling through the thread but can't remember if the answer's in here now!

The whole thing's ridiculous, for example they've contradicted themselves by saying she "sat comfortably for 40 minutes" but also that she couldn't sit for more than 10 minutes (can't remember exact wording). "Cleanly dressed with smart appearance" when (and I quote my friend), she "looked like shit!"

Needless to say she wants the nurse's head on a stake...

She's finally got the report (took them three weeks to send her it) and is appealing. She has regular stress related jaw dislocation/pain/infection which isn't helped by this, her knee has been dislocating every day for a couple of weeks now, she struggles to type at times due to her fingers swelling up and the colder weather isn't going to improve things much. She's going to have days when getting out of bed or opening doors will be a struggle for a few months now.

But, you know, get a job


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Cheers, I've spent the last few days trawling through the thread but can't remember if the answer's in here now!
> 
> The whole thing's ridiculous, for example they've contradicted themselves by saying she "sat comfortably for 40 minutes" but also that she couldn't sit for more than 10 minutes (can't remember exact wording). "Cleanly dressed with smart appearance" when (and I quote my friend), she "looked like shit!"
> 
> ...


 
Yeah, I had a quick look, but there's so many ATOS threads, it's possible it's not on this one 

and it's for crap like the above that they should be recorded


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Cheers, I've spent the last few days trawling through the thread but can't remember if the answer's in here now!
> 
> The whole thing's ridiculous, for example they've contradicted themselves by saying she "sat comfortably for 40 minutes" but also that she couldn't sit for more than 10 minutes (can't remember exact wording). "Cleanly dressed with smart appearance" when (and I quote my friend), she "looked like shit!"
> 
> ...


You rang? 

Here's the DWP guidance note for joint hypermobility which may be useful:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ical-conditions/joint-hypermobility-syndrome/

The evidence section states:


> Because of the wide range of clinical manifestations and spectrum of disability and needs it may often be necessary to obtain further evidence, in the form of a GP or physiotherapist report or a report by an examining medical practitioner. A rheumatologist’s report may be particularly helpful.


 
Does your friend know if the assessor had any experience of joint hypermobility? Oh, and if you turn up smart they do use it against you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

told you she'd be along soon


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> told you she'd be along soon


It's like you know me or something


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It's like you know me or something


 
You are *the one *when it comes to finding info like this


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You are *the one *when it comes to finding info like this


It's a superpower I'm using to fight those Atos fuckers


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2012)

Thanks 

Am asking if nurse had any experience. I doubt it tbh

And according to my mate she didn't turn up smart anyway!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Thanks
> 
> Am asking if nurse had any experience. I doubt it tbh
> 
> And according to my mate she didn't turn up smart anyway!


 
Found a video online yesterday where someone taped their assessment and was asking nurse about her qualifications.  She wasn't at all happy


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2012)

No idea what experience the nurse had as it goes


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Thanks
> 
> Am asking if nurse had any experience. I doubt it tbh
> 
> And according to my mate she didn't turn up smart anyway!


You're welcome 

I'd be surprised if they had any experience relevant to your friend's condition - and experience of several degrees of severity of the condition at that. Certainly all I've seen over the last year is that any old 'healthcare practitioner' gets wheeled out for these assessments, and they have little or no experience of complex conditions (especially ones that don't follow textbooks progression) or multiple disabilities together.

If your friend can go through the report line by line and highlight the errors, that would be helpful. Did she attend alone or did she take a friend with her?

Is your friend appealing the decision?


----------



## JTG (Oct 15, 2012)

Yeah, tbh even her GP has problems getting to grips with her condition and the severity of it and trying to get a referral to a specialist or even physio with knowledge of it has been tough. As I understand it, it's not massively well understood, and the degrees of it are quite varied - she has a particularly severe case sadly 

Just remembered: she's actually been registered blind in her left eye since birth but the assessment had her down as "able to read text with both eyes"! Talk about not paying attention...

She went alone. She was going to get someone to go with her but wasn't able to arrange. I'm a long way away but not for much longer and I intend to tag along for any appeals etc. Yes, she is appealing. She has to, she can't go back on JSA because she can't work the bar/waitressing jobs which are prevalent where she lives (seaside town).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

JTG said:


> Just remembered: she's actually been registered blind in her left eye since birth but the assessment had her down as "able to read text with both eyes"! Talk about not paying attention...


 
oh that's perfectly normal for them 



> A SCOTS-BASED Royal Marine who lost a leg in Afghanistan underwent a bizarre health assessment – then was told he didn’t qualify for disability benefits.
> 
> Aaron Moon suffered fractures to his shoulder, spine, pelvis, hip, heel and legs, a ruptured spleen, dislocated knees and a shattered lower leg which was amputated, after a roadside blast.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Minnie, now that there is more help and inside info available from b&w and sundry other people who are wise to the DWP/ATOS nest of vipers, I feel confident that we can get justice. We just have to be ultra conscientious about the paperwork and play the bastards at their own game.  And ideally have an emergency stash in the bank to see us through payment delays caused by minor foul ups, lost-in-the-post etc. So maybe you can relax a bit?  I'm so relaxed I'm finally doing the spring cleaning - because I'm sure I can afford to carry on living here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Minnie, now that there is more help and inside info available from b&w and sundry other people who are wise to the DWP/ATOS nest of vipers, I feel confident that we can get justice. We just have to be ultra conscientious about the paperwork and play the bastards at their own game. And ideally have an emergency stash in the bank to see us through payment delays caused by minor foul ups, lost-in-the-post etc. So maybe you can relax a bit? I'm so relaxed I'm finally doing the spring cleaning - because I'm sure I can afford to carry on living here.


 
I rang them today and they said award was for 24 months, so I won't receive any more forms until then (if that is to be believed).  It is a relief, but I have non-benefits related stress at the moment that's sort of overshadowing that relief


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 15, 2012)

Sorry to hear that - it's one thing after another.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Sorry to hear that - it's one thing after another.


 
Certainly feels like it


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 16, 2012)

Glad you can summon the cheesy grin tho!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Glad you can summon the cheesy grin tho!


 
Don't want to depress everyone with a miserable one


----------



## Celt (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was. I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts! I'm not sure, have I just made support group?


 


ash said:


> This seems a rather unorthodox assessment follow up but who knows with the current system. Sorry but not the support group 15 points puts you into the WRAG which is 12 monts contribution based ESA or longer if you are non contribution with conditionality of undertaking work related activity (WTF that is who knows )


 


Celt said:


> I'm still rather disbelieving, the conversation with the job centre lady was very, very odd, I think I'm only going to believe this when I have it in writing. It is a very empty victory for want of a better word. So what happens in WRAG ?


 
I've still had nothing in writing, if the intention is to drive me mad, they are succeeding.

Thank you ash for being the only poster who commented on my posts. 

I am not the most prolific of posters on the board,  Miss Minnie and Eq helped when I was filling in the forms and I'm very grateful, but I have felt quite isolated since posting about the phone call. I suppose people don't know me and therefor don't know if my claim is valid or not, and thats partly my fault, my self esteem is way below low, but I do try and support other people where I can,

I am not sure I can cope with WRAG, if the purpose of that is to get me work ready, which would be great if it were likely to be possible , but unless they can also cure my pain, which is considerable I don't think I can work, it takes me all my time to live, and am barely coping with this at the moment between physical pain and depression living takes a lot of energy.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Really sorry Celt, but up until a couple of days ago, I'd not been on here much.  I pretty much avoided it for a cople of weeks *purposely *to stop myself reading ATOS threads as they were stressing me out.  I also didn't know the answer.  I've done hundreds of online jigsaw puzzles in the last couple of weeks to take my mind off ATOS


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was. I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts! I'm not sure, have I just made support group?





ash said:


> This seems a rather unorthodox assessment follow up but who knows with the current system. Sorry but not the support group 15 points puts you into the WRAG which is 12 monts contribution based ESA or longer if you are non contribution with conditionality of undertaking work related activity (WTF that is who knows )


 
Are you sure about that ash? I'm sure I've read if you score 15 or more, that gets you into the WRAG, but you may also be eligible for Support Group

I'd give them a ring Celt and ask and ask how long for, and also ask for the decision maker forms (the ESA85 etc). That's what I did today


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

From Benefits and Work



> *Qualifying for the Support Group*
> 
> In order to qualify for the Support Group you need to;
> 
> ...


 
as I don't think she meets the exceptional circumstances criteria, then she might be eligible under one of the descriptors


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt, perhaps  people didn't reply because they have no knowledge of this sort of phone call? It's a new one on me. This is much, much too important for you to be relying on a small, random group of fellow claimants here, you need specialist advice. I'd subscribe to b&w. They also have a forum, but it's very tightly run and you get quick answers from a specialist who works for b&w.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> I've still had nothing in writing, if the intention is to drive me mad, they are succeeding.
> 
> Thank you ash for being the only poster who commented on my posts.
> 
> I am not the most prolific of posters on the board, Miss Minnie and Eq helped when I was filling in the forms and I'm very grateful, but I have felt quite isolated since posting about the phone call. I suppose people don't know me and therefor don't know if my claim is valid or not, and thats partly my fault, my self esteem is way below low, but I do try and support other people where I can<snip>


(((Celt))), I'm very sorry that neither VP nor I replied to your posts, when usually at least one of us would have done so as soon as they'd been posted.

FWIW last week, while you were worried sick about your ESA and being made to look for work, I was on day 3 of scarlet fever. As you can probably imagine, VP wasn't overblessed with free time or energy, particularly as he'd got a milder form of it (just pain, headache, and extra stiffness) on account of having had it before. It was just your bad luck that this happened at the time you needed us.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> curious curious call from the Job centre, tellingg me I had nil points on ESA, was there anything I didn't say at the medical - and there was. I asked her could she ring back at a time I wasn't going to reply in shock and heavily medicated for pain, she asked me a few questions, I remembered some of the things I had missed and then she said, from this conversation I can award you 15 poimts! I'm not sure, have I just made support group?


You probably have, but don't believe a thing until you get it in writing.  I really hope this takes the pressure off you a bit. Celt.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Oh, and if you turn up smart they do use it against you.


 Smart is the default setting for ATOS. I turned up scruffy and unshaven and the report said smart.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2012)

Celt said:


> I've still had nothing in writing, if the intention is to drive me mad, they are succeeding.
> 
> Thank you ash for being the only poster who commented on my posts.
> 
> ...


Darling {{{celt}}}

Sorry, I fell asleep last night and then have been at work all day, so this is the first chance I've got to see your posts.

Your claim is valid. You medical conditions are certainly not in doubt in my mind, so please don't think no-one cares or thinks about what you're going through. Your reaction to the process is extremely common from the articles and posts I've read, it is a horrible stressful process that is designed to make you give up and withdraw your claim. By staying the course and by being awarded 15 points, you have won.

15 points means you are in the Work Related Activity Group. This link to Benefits & Work explains more about the differences between the WRAG and the support group:
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/em...esa-glossary/1345-work-related-activity-group

Here is the list of support group descriptors. If you think that any of these apply to you (and could give examples in support if your opinion, if required, to the DWP), then you may wish to consider an appeal:
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/em...e/esa-glossary/1353-support-group-descriptors


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Are you sure about that ash? I'm sure I've read if you score 15 or more, that gets you into the WRAG, but you may also be eligible for Support Group
> 
> I'd give them a ring Celt and ask and ask how long for, and also ask for the decision maker forms (the ESA85 etc). That's what I did today


That's right - WRAG is about scoring enough points, Support group is about the descriptors applying to your conditions.


----------



## ash (Oct 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> That's right - WRAG is about scoring enough points, Support group is about the descriptors applying to your conditions.



It's confusing isn't it you'd think there would be points for the support group as well but the more complicated it us the more people will give up or be so confused that they can't make head nor tail of it, it took me ages initially to understand it.  Anyway Celt, I agree with equation girl look at the descriptors and consider an appeal, at the moment there is a 40% success rate at appeal, you are more likes to succeed if you attend the appeal and are represented. Good luck.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 16, 2012)

Being in the work group isn't as bad as it sounds - It's one appointment every 4 or 5 weeks for which attendance is mandatory but you don't have to look for a job - All you do is talk about your options. I'm not trying to make light of Celt's situation, obviously mandatory attendance is far from ideal, but if you insist to your advisor that you don't consider yourself job ready they're in no position to make you apply for jobs.

As a matter of interest, does anyone know what'd happen if you attended your work group appointments but didn't interact with your advisor at all, just sat there for an hour without speaking?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> As a matter of interest, does anyone know what'd happen if you attended your work group appointments but didn't interact with your advisor at all, just sat there for an hour without speaking?


 
They'd think you're a very unsociable young man?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> They'd think you're a very unsociable young man?


 
I mean would you get sanctioned for not co operating.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I mean would you get sanctioned for not co operating.


 
I realise that and I have no idea.  I will pass you on to My Learned friend equationgirl


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I realise that and I have no idea. I will pass you on to My Learned friend equationgirl


My esteemed friend and poster Miss Minx  is very kind 

First, yes, it would seem that the DWP do get a bit 'snaction-happy' with people in the WRAG:
https://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/20...pplied-to-sick-and-disabled-people-last-year/
This article claims more sanctions are applied to this group than on other schemes, for example, whilst this article from the Guardian talks about the sanction levels increasing from December :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/sep/03/disabled-benefits-claimants-fines-work

This from Benefits & Work explains the situation more clearly:
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/em...mployment-and-support-allowance-esa-sanctions

To my mind sanctions against this group seems counterproductive. A lot of claimants are trying to cope with physical and mental conditions so for some even getting to the adviser meeting could trigger a relapse or mean that they struggle through the next few days.

So, for the example quoted, I think yes they would sanction you (or at least make a concerted effort to) for not co-operating. Fuckers.


----------



## toggle (Oct 16, 2012)

i wonder how many people are being sanctioned for failing to do 'compulsory activity' that is beyond their ability.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> My esteemed friend and poster Miss Minx is very kind
> 
> First, yes, it would seem that the DWP do get a bit 'snaction-happy' with people in the WRAG:
> https://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/20...pplied-to-sick-and-disabled-people-last-year/
> ...


 
Thank you My Learned Friend 

I think this sentence probably says it all



> Sanctions can be imposed for:
> 
> *Failing to* attend or *take part* in a work-focused interview.


 
I would think that any adviser would consider you sitting there and not saying a word as a *failure to **take part *


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2012)

toggle said:


> i wonder how many people are being sanctioned for failing to do 'compulsory activity' that is beyond their ability.


Too many, I reckon.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> That's right - WRAG is about scoring enough points, Support group is about the descriptors applying to your conditions.


 
You can move into the "Support Group" without descriptors being applied, under the "special circumstances" rule. You don't receive any "support" btw. They just leave you alone.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> As a matter of interest, does anyone know what'd happen if you attended your work group appointments but didn't interact with your advisor at all, just sat there for an hour without speaking?


 
They whisk you off to a private room.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 16, 2012)

audiotech said:


> You can move into the "Support Group" without descriptors being applied, under the "special circumstances" rule. You don't receive any "support" btw. They just leave you alone.


 
True, but I wasn't sure if Celt was pregnant or dying


----------



## Celt (Oct 17, 2012)

Not pregnant and only dying at the same speed as everyone else.  Thank you for your input,  I realise that I have reached "overwrought" not a nice place to be.



Frumious B. said:


> Celt, perhaps people didn't reply because they have no knowledge of this sort of phone call? It's a new one on me. This is much, much too important for you to be relying on a small, random group of fellow claimants here, you need specialist advice. I'd subscribe to b&w. They also have a forum, but it's very tightly run and you get quick answers from a specialist who works for b&w.


 
true,

I have joined benefits and work but find the site huge to use.

I wasn't meaning to be critical of people doing their best to get by, and my comment wasn't aimed at any particular person.

Miss Eq, we operate in pretty much opposite times of the day, don't apologise for sleep, sleep is a wonderful salve to many things, 

_Sleep that knits up the ravelled sleeve of care 
The death of each day's life, sore labour's bath 
Balm of hurt minds, great nature's second course, 
Chief nourisher in life's feast. _

thank you for your posts which I will study tomorrow.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 17, 2012)

Celt said:


> Not pregnant and only dying at the same speed as everyone else. Thank you for your input, I realise that I have reached "overwrought" not a nice place to be.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
B&W site certainly is a bit busy on the eyes and takes a bit of practice to get used to figuring out where everything is but it's an excellent site


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> They just leave you alone.


That should have read they stop harassing you and making your life even more of a misery.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 17, 2012)

atos try try try to get a good image and are at Cardiff Uni tomorrow, THURS 18 Oct!
Newport rd, near ish queesn st station

http://www.facebook.com/events/482462408440447/
PROTEST as Atos comes to Cardiff University
Meet at 9am, Thursday 18th October,
Cardiff School of Engineering, Newport Road
Atos is the vicious profiteering company that is doing the Government's dirty work clearing disabled and vulnerable people off benefits. Campaigning organisation, Disabled People Against Cuts, says that an average of 32 people die every week - some sadly through suicide - after being found fit for work by Atos, which profits from £4 billion worth of public sector contracts every year.
To try and boost its flagging image, Atos has teamed up with the Welsh Assembly to launch an IT competition in Universities and is descending on Cardiff University this Thursday. How about we get together all anticuts campaigners who want to help organise the protest, and form a welcoming committee for them and pop their propaganda bubble?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2012)

Thanks to Norris Nuvo


----------



## JTG (Oct 27, 2012)

Update: my friend has won her appeal with what seems to be minimum fuss. They are now withholding her back payments because they had the wrong address for her (their mistake) and want to send someone round to investigate.

Just pay her the money she's entitled to you shithouse twats


----------



## Greebo (Oct 27, 2012)

JTG said:


> Update: my friend has won her appeal with what seems to be minimum fuss. They are now withholding her back payments because they had the wrong address for her (their mistake) and want to send someone round to investigate.<snip>


FFS!  Glad to hear that your friend won the appeal though, that in itself must be a huge relief.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

JTG said:


> Update: my friend has won her appeal with what seems to be minimum fuss. They are now withholding her back payments because they had the wrong address for her (their mistake) and want to send someone round to investigate.
> 
> Just pay her the money she's entitled to you shithouse twats


 
Good news.  Why do they need to send someone round to investigate.  Can't it be done over the phone?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Good news. Why do they need to send someone round to investigate. Can't it be done over the phone?


Don't be ridiculous, Minnie, that's far too sensible.  

Besides, for all they know, you could be anyone of the right sex claiming to be JTG's friend. If they go round in person they can demand to see passports and other proof of ID and address.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Don't be ridiculous, Minnie, that's far too sensible.
> 
> Besides, for all they know, you could be anyone of the right sex claiming to be JTG's friend. If they go round in person they can demand to see passports and other proof of ID and address.


 
Yes, silly me.


----------



## JTG (Oct 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Good news. Why do they need to send someone round to investigate. Can't it be done over the phone?


They've already admitted that it was their keying error which made them think she's changed address. Still sending someone over. Stalling tactics plain and simple, they owe her over 600 quid


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 27, 2012)

JTG said:


> They've already admitted that it was their keying error which made them think she's changed address. Still sending someone over. Stalling tactics plain and simple, they owe her over 600 quid


 
Twunts

Well hopefully she'll get it by Christmas


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 28, 2012)

Surprised this wasn't done sooner TBH.. 

The Capita PIP Assessment wagon will be rolling into rural Wales soon (image found in Capita's tender bid, courtesy of  Disability Community UK: http://www.facebook.com/groups/411320278927437/)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 28, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Surprised this wasn't done sooner TBH..
> 
> The Capita PIP Assessment wagon will be rolling into rural Wales soon (image found in Capita's tender bid, courtesy of Disability Community UK: http://www.facebook.com/groups/411320278927437/)
> 
> View attachment 24440


 
I can't see a bed for you to hop onto.  Do you hop onto the worktops to see how mobile you are?


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 28, 2012)

Is there a drop down ramp or lift?

If you can manage to get into the assessment centre then you're fit for work.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 28, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> Is there a drop down ramp or lift?
> 
> If you can manage to get into the assessment centre then you're fit for work.


Was just about to post the same thing.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

DOCTOR 'SHOCKED' BY BENEFITS SYSTEM 


> Dr Anne Dyson said the system is so complex it is likely to fail the people who are most in need of help.
> 
> Dr Dyson, who works as a general practitioner in South Woodham Ferrers, Essex, said she was "shocked" by the bureaucracy of the system after trying to claim employment and support allowance following a breast cancer diagnosis.
> 
> ...


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 31, 2012)

They certainly seem to be taking the piss with my memory loss and confusion.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> DOCTOR 'SHOCKED' BY BENEFITS SYSTEM


 
How come when I search on news, it's only Wales Online that has that story, whereas this story comes from The Express?

Surprised more papers haven't picked this up, being as it's a professional as opposed to a workshy benefits scrounger


----------



## Frumious B. (Oct 31, 2012)

All they care about is scrounger stories. You have to set yourself on fire in the Jobcentre to get any other sort of coverage.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> All they care about is scrounger stories. You have to set yourself on fire in the Jobcentre to get any other sort of coverage.


 
Wonder if Sonia Poulton's aware of the story?


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2012)

> *billie ray martin* ‏@*billie_r_martin*
> wow.a german health insurance company called hundreds of insured people, telling them to leave, as they're too expensive (disabled etc).
> Retweeted by *Sue Marsh*


 
Not here, but shocking and I suspect something that US companies like UNUM will move towards

and the politicians are saying people should have private unemployment insurance!


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> How come when I search on news, it's only Wales Online that has that story, whereas this story comes from The Express?
> 
> Surprised more papers haven't picked this up, being as it's a professional as opposed to a workshy benefits scrounger


 
Anyone sent it to the BBC?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Anyone sent it to the BBC?


She first posted it to the BMJ
http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7209



Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Wonder if Sonia Poulton's aware of the story?


Yep I sent it too her when it broke.

It's far spread now thankfully. Google search.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> She first posted it to the BMJ
> http://www.bmj.com/content/345/bmj.e7209
> 
> 
> ...


 
Nice one Frankie


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Not here, but shocking and I suspect something that US companies like UNUM will move towards
> 
> and the politicians are saying people should have private unemployment insurance!


 
It's illegal, currently. Even in Germany
They can tell/ask them to leave a scheme, but they can't force them off it. Unfortunately, consumers tend to be sheep, so if someone phones you up and says "look, you're costing us too much, so your premium iis going up by 300%" some people will leave the scheme, often without thinking about who *else* is going to insure them.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Unum have said they're not interested in personal health insurance as much as employee and business based health insurance. I have a link for this some where down the back of my faves. I'll have a rummage.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Not here, but shocking and I suspect something that US companies like UNUM will move towards
> 
> and the politicians are saying people should have private unemployment insurance!


 
Ah UNUM . 
UNUM = ATOS ?

I find it difficult to keep up to speed (part of my medical probs)    but I'm sort of thinking UNUM beget ATOS - do I think correctly?


----------



## treelover (Oct 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nice one Frankie


 

Its mostly online sites, Channel 4 News would use this..

is it being tweeted?


----------



## yardbird (Oct 31, 2012)

Ah
Awaits Frankie's rummage report.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Ah Yardie. The UNUM/ATOS connection is as heinous as we think. When the aylward biopsychobillshit was first being thrust down the throats of our politicians it was UNUM right there lobbying the DWP back in the 90/00s. One of UNUMS CEOs was/is now an ATOS CEO. 

Just a few articles from Black Triangle.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Changes to Unum's income protection offer
March 2012

Income protection specialist, Unum, has signalled its commitment to focusing on the employer-paid benefits market with the removal from sale of its Individual income protection products. It is retaining its market-leading Executive income protection offering, which is an employer paid product that will be offered alongside its award-winning Group products.
"We believe the workplace is the best place for workers to get income protection," comments Marco Forato, Chief Marketing Officer. "It makes cover more affordable and also enables individuals with pre-existing conditions or high risk people to get cover they may not be approved for with an individual policy.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Its mostly online sites, Channel 4 News would use this..
> 
> is it being tweeted?


I've twatted it to death.


----------



## yardbird (Oct 31, 2012)

The sort of outs that UNUM use in the States would say. MS? not covered.  an existing condition that you didn't tell us about?. You didn't know you had it yourself?
Tough


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

treelover said:


> Its mostly online sites, Channel 4 News would use this..
> 
> is it being tweeted?


 
I was on google and news.  The only one that came up was Wales Online


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Thing is, with this and all other welfare stories, it's up to the media editors what gets published or not. I've heard so many journalists say their copy was refused because their editors were afraid of overkill and pissing off audiences. Doesn't meant they don't keep the info gathered for the next big break though.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> Thing is, with this and all other welfare stories, it's up to the media editors what gets published or not. I've heard so many journalists say their copy was refused because their editors were afraid of overkill and pissing off audiences. Doesn't meant they don't keep the info gathered for the next big break though.


 
Yeah, when will that be though?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, when will that be though?


Exactly..........


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 31, 2012)

New post on Back Triangle from Mo Stewart.



> Someone, other than investigative TV journalists(25), needs to be asking what was the ultimate goal, and who were to be the undoubted beneficiaries of this government funded medical tyranny, imported from America, against the most vulnerable people in our society?
> Unum’s unacceptable influence with successive UK governments was recently exposed at the Liberal Democrat Conference by the courageous young Mr George Potter.(26)
> If only the political leaders of the Liberal Democrats enjoyed some of the courage displayed by George Potter, millions of chronically sick and disabled people would no longer need to live in fear of this coalition government, that has totally failed to protect them, despite the claims by Liberal Democrat leaders.


 


> George Potter, the Liberal Democrat activist who devised the motion, said that, although Liberal Democrats had ensured some improvements to the government’s welfare reforms – including the independent Harrington reviews of the WCA – disabled people were still “suffering right now because of what we have done in government”.
> He also drew the attention of party members to the influence of the US insurance company Unum – which has been criticised for influencing welfare reform over two decades and then profiting from those policies – and which “sat on the committees which designed the assessment systems”.
> His motion criticised the last Labour government for “relying too heavily” on “advice from private companies with a potential financial interest” in the outcomes of welfare policies affecting disabled people.
> And he praised the investigative research of the disabled activist Mo Stewart, who has tried to expose the role of Unum in influencing welfare reform and has contributed to several Disability News Service (DNS) stories.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

my search is failing me, can someone find the link to who is entitled to home assessment and who needs to be assessed by a doctor. bakunin has his dla assessment coming up soon, bloody again, he only had his appeal where it was awarded indefinately in january


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> my search is failing me, can someone find the link to who is entitled to home assessment and who needs to be assessed by a doctor. bakunin has his dla assessment coming up soon, bloody again, he only had his appeal where it was awarded indefinately in january


Let me have my tea, and I'll have a check for you. If you or Bakunin can PM me any medical conditions he has, it will make it easier for me to work through the DWP paperwork labyrinth.


----------



## laptop (Nov 1, 2012)

> *Investigate 'misleading' Atos bid for disability tests contract, urges Labour*
> 
> Four organisations named in tendering document say they object to suggestion they planned to co-operate with firm
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/01/atos-disability-tests-contract-labour


 
This could, just have legs.

Massive injustice to humans: "meh". Fraudulent tendering for a contract: possible massive fine, and the contract _ought_ to be revoked.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Let me have my tea, and I'll have a check for you. If you or Bakunin can PM me any medical conditions he has, it will make it easier for me to work through the DWP paperwork labyrinth.


 
he's been open enough about this so ti's no secret. the main thing that i think should entitle him to home assessment is aspergers. he also has bipolar disorder and what are most likely stress related absence seizures (although no diagnosis on that). he also has a buggered short term memory, possibly as a result of trying to drown himself in cheap whisky in the eyars before he got his diagnosis, type 2 diabeties that is not well controlled due to the poor memory and a very stubborn refusal to do blood sugar testing (cause npo one can do stubborn like an aspie), high cholesterol and athsma that is bad enough to wake him up 3 or so nights a week on average.i think that's most of it. he is also far too unfit after many years worth of not being able to look after himself. i'm far stronger than him.

he should qualify for dla lower rate care on grounds of not being able to cook a main meal. the aspie tunnel vision, seiures and memory preculde him being safe with an oven unless i'm there and i've lost count of the number of times he eats stuff that is screwing up his blood sugar and cholesterol and there's a bowl of something healthier forgotten in the microwave.

but the silly bugger filled in his own forms, even though he knows what he should have done. we just had a row about him giving up and not doing this properly.

but if there's no recording, i will do a recording and take notes, and i can transcribe for apppeal. I will also make sure i state for the tape (by telling the assessor that this is an indicator of a certain behavior npattern) any aspects of his behavior, and he does go 'odd' when he's stressed, that need to be mentioned. i doubt he will sleep the night before the assessment anyway, but he does go completely manic when eh's not slept. complete loss of inhibitions and judgement. this won't harm his case when they are supposed to base on observed behavior.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Let me have my tea, and I'll have a check for you. If you or Bakunin can PM me any medical conditions he has, it will make it easier for me to work through the DWP paperwork labyrinth.


 
You're so good eg


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You're so good eg


 
she is lovelly.

if i wasn't dealing with the stress atm, i'd be able to do this myself. but brain does shut down for me when i'm stressed and he is like a tortoise withdrawing it's head into it's shell.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> she is lovelly.
> 
> if i wasn't dealing with the stress atm, i'd be able to do this myself. but brain does shut down for me when i'm stressed and he is like a tortoise withdrawing it's head into it's shell.


 
I had actually been looking earlier myself and came across someone saying all DLA medicals are at home.    I wasn't sure I believed that so continued looking but had other stuff to do.  Sorry


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 1, 2012)

> *Investigate 'misleading' Atos bid for disability tests contract, urges Labour*
> 
> Four organisations named in tendering document say they object to suggestion they planned to co-operate with firm


 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2012/nov/01/atos-disability-tests-contract-labour


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> she is lovelly.
> 
> if i wasn't dealing with the stress atm, i'd be able to do this myself. but brain does shut down for me when i'm stressed and he is like a tortoise withdrawing it's head into it's shell.


 


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You're so good eg


I'm not feeling very lovely to be honest, I had a shitty day at work and ended up phoning someone's boss to tell him to get his engineer off my case, that I couldn't do what he wanted and what he wanted was technically and physically impossible anyway, AND I was up to my eyes in sorting out other problems for this guy at the same time.

Give me a few minutes, I'll get a ball of string to help me find my way out of the DWP internet maze.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

thanks hun. didn't need this today. my job ended on tuesday and i need to find something that will support both of us, either through half decent pay or more likely, very long hours. i cannot face the stress of signing on and signing him onto esa. i'm stressing about uni stuff and now i've got this. the doors that having dla open for us into extra tax credits and other things that allow us to keep heads above water. I think he will loose the mobility, but we need the lower rate care.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm not feeling very lovely to be honest, I had a shitty day at work and ended up phoning someone's boss to tell him to get his engineer off my case, that I couldn't do what he wanted and what he wanted was technically and physically possible anyway, AND I was up to my eyes in sorting out other problems for this guy at the same time.
> 
> Give me a few minutes, I'll get a ball of string to help me find my way out of the DWP internet maze.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> thanks hun. didn't need this today. my job ended on tuesday and i need to find something that will support both of us, either through half decent pay or more likely, very long hours. i cannot face the stress of signing on and signing him onto esa. i'm stressing about uni stuff and now i've got this. the doors that having dla open for us into extra tax credits and other things that allow us to keep heads above water. I think he will loose the mobility, but we need the lower rate care.


Right, has he had the appointment letter for the assessment yet?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

If he has, there should be a number on it to call to request a home visit. Be prepared to justify why he should get one - I would go with a) unpredictable absence seizures means he could be in danger if he has one whilst on the way to the assessment centre, b) risk of diabetic hypo due to poorly-controlled Type II diabetes coupled with poor memory and c) Asperger's (doesn't cope well out of usual environment, which can exacerbate the bipolar disorder leading to rapid manic/depressive episode cycling). He'll likely need a letter from the GP outlining the medical reasons why a home visit is necessary but it shouldn't be a problem.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Right, has he had the appointment letter for the assessment yet?


 
he had a phone cal that he was silly enough to respond to rather than say he wanted it in writing. they claimed he had failed to respond to previous attempts to contact him, but there were no letters sent out. he aggreed to a day for assessment before i could stop him and said he was fine with directions to the center. i got him to call back and ask for recording and ask whether his condition ment he was entitled to a home visit. they said they only did home visits for people unable to leave their home.but he has already aggreed to the interview on the 20th, so i think it will be ahppening then, whether we object now or not.

he knows what he should do and can advise other people what to do, but can't look after himself in this. i also think eh's giving up the thought of getting anyhting. what i've described makes it clear as far as i can see he is entitled to the lower care, but eh's expecting not to be able to cope with having to appeal. i don't always know how to deal with it when he's stressed and upset cause his reactions to me trying to aren't what i'm expecting, they aren't 'normal'. well, they are to him, but this si where i know we aren't always on the same wavelength. i can talk aspie a lot of the time, but when eh's upset, i'm lost.

but despite himself, he's made some wrong calls on this. he already did so by filling in the forms himself without any assistance. i think there's a point where he thinks he has to cope on his own, so tries to do everyting. and he nods aggreement to things sometimes without thinking of the consequences cause he dosen't want to be difficult. this dosen't always do him any favours.

there was a list somewhere of people who automatically should be offered home visits, aspies were on that list.but whatever happens, they will see him at his worse. the stress will ensure that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> but despite himself, he's made some wrong calls on this. he already did so by filling in the forms himself without any assistance. i think there's a point where he thinks he has to cope on his own, so tries to do everyting. and he nods aggreement to things sometimes without thinking of the consequences cause he dosen't want to be difficult. this dosen't always do him any favours.


 
It's really not a good idea for him to fill it in on his own as people tend to downplay symptoms/side effects etc. and furthermore, because it may be something they've lived with and got used to, they just ignore things that might be important.

A typical example that either equationgirl/VP/greebo might have pointed out to me was when I mentioned that partner was "used to the pain" and that was with me doing his forms.  If he'd done them himself (assuming his memory worked), he would probably not even mention the pain because 1) he's used to it, and 2) he wouldn't want to be seen as weak


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

This gives some clarity about the component awards:
https://www.gov.uk/dla-disability-living-allowance-benefit/eligibility

I have noticed that the www.direct.gov.uk website has been 'overhauled' and a lot of information seems to have disappeared or been moved. I haven't come across an automatic home visit list yet but will keep looking.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> This gives some clarity about the component awards:
> https://www.gov.uk/dla-disability-living-allowance-benefit/eligibility
> 
> I have noticed that the www.direct.gov.uk website has been 'overhauled' and a lot of information seems to have disappeared or been moved. I haven't come across an automatic home visit list yet but will keep looking.


 
Yep, came across that myself.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Nov 1, 2012)

laptop said:


> This could, just have legs.
> 
> Massive injustice to humans: "meh". Fraudulent tendering for a contract: possible massive fine, and the contract _ought_ to be revoked.





> You state in the Guardian that you would be prepared to work with ATOS on the PIP tests.
> 
> You do realise that those you represent, disability activists and even politicians want these tests stopped and charities who collude with Atos and the DWP only hinder the struggle against these ideological and brutal assessments.
> 
> ...


*
https://www.facebook.com/ScottishAssociationForMentalHealth*


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> This gives some clarity about the component awards:
> https://www.gov.uk/dla-disability-living-allowance-benefit/eligibility
> 
> I have noticed that the www.direct.gov.uk website has been 'overhauled' and a lot of information seems to have disappeared or been moved. I haven't come across an automatic home visit list yet but will keep looking.


 
he cannot reliably do a cooked main meal unsupervised, unsafe with a stove and forgets, i can tach him recipies, basic skills, but he is still unsafe using a stove on his own when he forgets he is cooking, therefore he does not do this sutff if i'm not in the house. there is also an arguement for needing supervision to keep out of danger, this is solved by my living with him and reminding him about stuff, but on his own he has got into a state without someone to keep an eye on him.he got into a state with visits from support workers every 2 days. he can't live on his own.

as far as i'm aware, it's abut what he can do. i give him a list, he does this while i'm at work. am i right in thinking this is about his abulity on his own, not what he does when i'm there to keep an eye on him? they can't claim he dosen't need this because i'm there to remind him and that is generally enough for him to cope?



oh ffs. son didn't take his ritalin today and i'm trying to do all this with him making odd noises in the background. he has just bounced into the room holding a game boy and yelling 'herpes'.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> he cannot reliably do a cooked main meal unsupervised, unsafe with a stove and forgets, i can tach him recipies, basic skills, but he is still unsafe using a stove on his own when he forgets he is cooking, therefore he does not do this sutff if i'm not in the house. there is also an arguement for needing supervision to keep out of danger, this is solved by my living with him and reminding him about stuff, but on his own he has got into a state without someone to keep an eye on him.he got into a state with visits from support workers every 2 days. he can't live on his own.
> 
> as far as i'm aware, it's abut what he can do. i give him a list, he does this while i'm at work. am i right in thinking this is about his abulity on his own, not what he does when i'm there to keep an eye on him? they can't claim he dosen't need this because i'm there to remind him and that is generally enough for him to cope?
> 
> oh ffs. son didn't take his ritalin today and i'm trying to do all this with him making odd noises in the background. he has just bounced into the room holding a game boy and yelling 'herpes'.


 
I honestly think that, based on the posts you've made, he should be getting the middle rate of the care component due to the level of supervision needed to keep out of danger. I think there's a real difference between supervision for 'keeping out of danger' and because he can't do things for himself. It is about what he can do - and he can do a lot - but equally if there is help you can get to make your lives easier than you should get it.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

{{{toggle}}}


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> she is lovelly.
> 
> if i wasn't dealing with the stress atm, i'd be able to do this myself. but brain does shut down for me when i'm stressed and he is like a tortoise withdrawing it's head into it's shell.


 
Unfortunately, that's the default position for a significant minority of claimants when faced with the farcical parade of bullshit and vindictiveness known as DWP "best practice".
And boy are they glad about it. Makes it so much easier to achieve those claimant-reduction targets they swear blind they don't have.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Unfortunately, that's the default position for a significant minority of claimants when faced with the farcical parade of bullshit and vindictiveness known as DWP "best practice".
> And boy are they glad about it. Makes it so much easier to achieve those claimant-reduction targets they swear blind they don't have.


 
i know.

it's one reason i'm back on the shitty job train tomorrow. i could sign on for a while and have the time to apply for graduate jobs, but i can't face that.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I honestly think that, based on the posts you've made, he should be getting the middle rate of the care component due to the level of supervision needed to keep out of danger. I think there's a real difference between supervision for 'keeping out of danger' and because he can't do things for himself. It is about what he can do - and he can do a lot - but equally if there is help you can get to make your lives easier than you should get it.


 
his appeal in january made it clear he couldn't qualify for middle rate care under the new rules, because he can cope with minimal daily supervision, 20 quid is supposed to cover minimal daily supervision. they chose not to look at his mobility. i don't think he qualifies for that, but they chose not to look at whether he did. I think this was tactical.

he can do everything that he needs to do, as long as he's not on his own doing this, he does the majority of the housework as long as i tell him what needs doing. what he can't do is live on his own or hold a regular job.

but i just destressed by telling a disability denier elsewhere that he was a prick. i got censored, cause it's that sort of place, but i felt a lot better.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2012)

I'm prepared to fight them over this now that I've had time to consider it more calmly. The best likely outcome is that I lose the mobility component but keep the care, but I might get more than that and while I'd say it's a case of a slim chance versus none at all it's better than simply rolling over for them. Basically I'll be working on the basis that they'll use whatever sharp practices they think they can get away with to take away what little I still get and with the firm belief that they'll do their best to make it as drawn out and difficult as possible, but that's nothing about ATOS and the DWP that I didn't already know.

I will fight them again. Not because I want to, but because I'm going to have to.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

In some ways, letting him do the assessment in this way demonstrates exactly the point you are trying to make.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I honestly think that, based on the posts you've made, he should be getting the middle rate of the care component due to the level of supervision needed to keep out of danger. I think there's a real difference between supervision for 'keeping out of danger' and because he can't do things for himself. It is about what he can do - and he can do a lot - but equally if there is help you can get to make your lives easier than you should get it.


 
Sounds like it, and if his memory is that bad, that if he's distracted (eg. with a phone call), he'll forget he's cooking, or running a bath, then it should be mentioned.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 1, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> I'm prepared to fight them over this now that I've had time to consider it more calmly. The best likely outcome is that I lose the mobility component but keep the care, but I might get more than that and while I'd say it's a case of a slim chance versus none at all it's better than simply rolling over for them. Basically I'll be working on the basis that they'll use whatever sharp practices they think they can get away with to take away what little I still get and with the firm belief that they'll do their best to make it as drawn out and difficult as possible, but that's nothing about ATOS and the DWP that I didn't already know.
> 
> I will fight them again. Not because I want to, but because I'm going to have to.


They fight dirty, and they don't expect you to fight back. Mwah hah hah


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> They fight dirty, and they don't expect you to fight back. Mwah hah hah


 
The words 'Come back John Bellingham, your country needs you' do spring to mind.


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> I'm prepared to fight them over this now that I've had time to consider it more calmly. The best likely outcome is that I lose the mobility component but keep the care, but I might get more than that and while I'd say it's a case of a slim chance versus none at all it's better than simply rolling over for them. Basically I'll be working on the basis that they'll use whatever sharp practices they think they can get away with to take away what little I still get and with the firm belief that they'll do their best to make it as drawn out and difficult as possible, but that's nothing about ATOS and the DWP that I didn't already know.
> 
> I will fight them again. Not because I want to, but because I'm going to have to.


 
what you will get is the lower rate care at the absolute minimum. we may need to appeal to get this, but we will get it. if we had got advice before filling in the forms and before the medical you would probably be in a better position now. but now we are here and now we fight with what we have. you told me stuff tonight i didn't know before. i need to know it all. cause i need to be able to fight this for you as well. write it for me while i'm doing the agency shuffle tomorrow.


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## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Sounds like it, and if his memory is that bad, that if he's distracted (eg. with a phone call), he'll forget he's cooking, or running a bath, then it should be mentioned.


 
i said at the appeal he was getting absence seizures up to 6 times a day while i saw them. this wans't enough for middle rate care.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> what you will get is the lower rate care at the absolute minimum. we may need to appeal to get this, but we will get it. if we had got advice before filling in the forms and before the medical you would probably be in a better position now. but now we are here and now we fight with what we have. you told me stuff tonight i didn't know before. i need to know it all. cause i need to be able to fight this for you as well. write it for me while i'm doing the agency shuffle tomorrow.


 
Will I be writing that before, after or during the dentist from marathon Man has had his fun with me?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 1, 2012)

toggle said:


> i said at the appeal he was getting absence seizures up to 6 times a day while i saw them. this wans't enough for middle rate care.


 
Does he have any consultants that he sees about any of his conditions?  If so, did you get any letters off them?


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Does he have any consultants that he sees about any of his conditions? If so, did you get any letters off them?


 
not anymore. gp handles his meds, not often. gp wasn't all that inteested in the seizures. he is altering that situation this week.


Bakunin said:


> Will I be writing that before, after or during the dentist from marathon Man has had his fun with me?


that is entirely up to you. i do expect the full script though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> I'm prepared to fight them over this now that I've had time to consider it more calmly. The best likely outcome is that I lose the mobility component but keep the care, but I might get more than that and while I'd say it's a case of a slim chance versus none at all it's better than simply rolling over for them...


 
The best likely outcome is retaining your current award.



> Basically I'll be working on the basis that they'll use whatever sharp practices they think they can get away with to take away what little I still get and with the firm belief that they'll do their best to make it as drawn out and difficult as possible, but that's nothing about ATOS and the DWP that I didn't already know.
> 
> I will fight them again. Not because I want to, but because I'm going to have to.


 
Realistically, *everyone* has to and should, because G-d knows that they throw these impediments in front of anyone and everyone. Unfortunately, some people still believe that the state is benign, while others are so crushed by the sheer bureaucratic hell that they (just as the DWP want) stop claiming. I wouldn't mind a system where the decisions and administration were disinterested, but when they're actively malign, then every person fighting back is a drain on their resources, and it kind of becomes an imperative to do so, however difficult.
What a fucking world, eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

toggle said:


> i said at the appeal he was getting absence seizures up to 6 times a day while i saw them. this wans't enough for middle rate care.


 
Probably because without a consultant's opinion backing you up/making a diagnosis, they just treat it as anecdote. 
Basically, nowadays you're epected to present definitive evidence for each impairment you have, never mind that with the changes to the NHS, PCTs (or whatever the hell they're currently called) are prioritising spending (here, referrals appear to have to be approved by the PCT before you're referred) so unless you've shown your GP substantive and substantial evidence of a problem, it's now harder to even get a referral


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Will I be writing that before, after or during the dentist from marathon Man has had his fun with me?


 
Most of them nowadays have a more generous hand with the anaesthesia.


----------



## toggle (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Probably because without a consultant's opinion backing you up/making a diagnosis, they just treat it as anecdote.
> Basically, nowadays you're epected to present definitive evidence for each impairment you have, never mind that with the changes to the NHS, PCTs (or whatever the hell they're currently called) are prioritising spending (here, referrals appear to have to be approved by the PCT before you're referred) so unless you've shown your GP substantive and substantial evidence of a problem, it's now harder to even get a referral


 
i'm going to insist he gets a referal for that. it will not be in place by the time of the assessment, but should be there by appeal. I'm also going to see if the doctor will dignose on symptoms if it won't show up in tests.


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## toggle (Nov 2, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Most of them nowadays have a more generous hand with the anaesthesia.


 
he['s fine. grumpy but fine. i'm here for another couple of hours, then i've got a fatory shift this afternoon


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 2, 2012)

> View Full-Size Image
> 
> *ESA50 with descriptors*
> *Price per Unit (piece):*  £2.49
> ...


 

http://www.benefitanswers.co.uk/Non...ESA50-with-descriptors/flypage.tpl.html?pop=0

I have a copy of this if anyone needs it and doesn't want to pay. PM me your email address and I will
send it.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2012)

toggle said:


> i'm going to insist he gets a referal for that. it will not be in place by the time of the assessment, but should be there by appeal. I'm also going to see if the doctor will dignose on symptoms if it won't show up in tests.


 
He's already got a BPD diagnosis, IIRC, so having fugue states, although "rare" in medical terms, isn't unheard-of. It certainly occurs as an extra problem for a minority of people with BPD who are prone to stress. It's all there in DSM IV, if your GP gets ornery.


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## toggle (Nov 2, 2012)

afaik, one of his meds is used to treat both bpd and epilepsy.

but thankyou. i'll look that up, print it out nd he can take it to the docs with him.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 2, 2012)

toggle said:


> afaik, one of his meds is used to treat both bpd and epilepsy.
> 
> but thankyou. i'll look that up, print it out nd he can take it to the docs with him.


I'll have a look for supporting information too, seeing as how you've got work.


----------



## Meltingpot (Nov 2, 2012)

toggle said:


> he['s fine. grumpy but fine. i'm here for another couple of hours, then i've got a fatory shift this afternoon


 
Good luck with that (and the shift too).


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## equationgirl (Nov 2, 2012)

toggle said:


> afaik, one of his meds is used to treat both bpd and epilepsy.
> 
> but thankyou. i'll look that up, print it out nd he can take it to the docs with him.


This paper summary might be helpful:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed?term=bipolar disorder aspergers epilepsy


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## teqniq (Nov 5, 2012)

This has actually started today:

DISABLED PROTESTOR TO STAGE VIGIL & HUNGER STRIKE OUTSIDE OF ATOS OFFICES IN CARDIFF



> STARTS
> A disabled person in his 30s will lead a five day hunger strike and vigil outside the ATOS office on St Agnes Road, Gabalfa, Cardiff to protest a letter from the Department of Work and Pensions (DWP) declaring him fit for work and cutting his benefits.
> Christos Palmer, who has both mental and physical health problems, including depression, self-harm and mobility issues, hopes the protest will highlight the suffering of disabled people caused by current government policies.....


 
fot those with Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/events/430345053681756/

E2A this has made it to the Independent and Huffington Post:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...strike-just-to-get-heard-by-atos-8282368.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...isability-rights_n_2076218.html?utm_hp_ref=uk


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2012)

Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.

I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA. I know by doing that I'm doing exactly what the system wants, but I simply can't be arsed with it all - You know how it is. Anyway, I'd more or less reconciled myself to this happening - It's the way things are going, you can't appeal against the zeitgiest.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.
> 
> I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA. I know by doing that I'm doing exactly what the system wants, but I simply can't be arsed with it all - You know how it is. Anyway, I'd more or less reconciled myself to this happening - It's the way things are going, you can't appeal against the zeitgiest.


 


Frances, if you think you're entitled to it, you really shouldn't let them do this to you.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.
> 
> I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA. I know by doing that I'm doing exactly what the system wants, but I simply can't be arsed with it all - You know how it is. Anyway, I'd more or less reconciled myself to this happening - It's the way things are going, you can't appeal against the zeitgiest.


I urge you to reconsider. You are entitled to support. If you would like some help with the appeal paperwork I will help you.

Stick it to the man, Frances, fight for what is yours. Don't let those fat cat fuckers steal from you


----------



## Mephitic (Nov 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I urge you to reconsider. You are entitled to support. If you would like some help with the appeal paperwork I will help you.
> 
> Stick it to the man, Frances, fight for what is yours. Don't let those fat cat fuckers steal from you


 
This.


----------



## Quartz (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.
> 
> I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA.


 
Please do appeal. We pay taxes and NI in part so that the State can support us when we're in need. You're in need. Don't let the buggers grind you down and get away with it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.
> 
> I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA. I know by doing that I'm doing exactly what the system wants, but I simply can't be arsed with it all - You know how it is. Anyway, I'd more or less reconciled myself to this happening - It's the way things are going, you can't appeal against the zeitgiest.


 
I can understand why you feel like that, but it isn't the _zeitgeist_, mate. It's just a discourse some rich fuckers are trying to impose so that they can carry on robbing. The reason so many decisions get overturned on appeal is because the Social Security Commissioners (on whose work the Tribunals base how they make their decisions with regard to individual cases) deal with law and precedent, not with _zeitgeiste_ or discourse.
I'm not sure whether the process has changed yet, but IIRC you have to request a review of the decision first. Why not mail them asking for a review, and requesting a copy of your assessment? That way you can see whether they've cocked the assessment, and whether they've done it enough to warrant going for an appeal.


----------



## toggle (Nov 7, 2012)

appeal tribunal for dla was less interested in the assessment than in making their own assessment of whether someone fits the criteria IME. would think esa appeal works the same way.


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## Greebo (Nov 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Frances, if you think you're entitled to it, you really shouldn't let them do this to you.





equationgirl said:


> I urge you to reconsider. You are entitled to support. If you would like some help with the appeal paperwork I will help you.
> 
> Stick it to the man, Frances, fight for what is yours. Don't let those fat cat fuckers steal from you


Word.  Do it for every other poor sod who's being screwed over, if not for yourself.


----------



## Frumious B. (Nov 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I urge you to reconsider. You are entitled to support. If you would like some help with the appeal paperwork I will help you.
> 
> Stick it to the man, Frances, fight for what is yours. Don't let those fat cat fuckers steal from you


 
Do it. If you claim JSA you'll be stuck on the £71 pw you're on now. If you can get into the WRAG you'll get £99ish pw, or £105ish for the Support Group, backdated to when you first claimed ESA. By the time your appeal goes through they'll owe you a ton of money and you'll get it in a lump sum. If you don't appeal you'll regret it - I did.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can understand why you feel like that, but it isn't the _zeitgeist_, mate. It's just a discourse some rich fuckers are trying to impose so that they can carry on robbing. The reason so many decisions get overturned on appeal is because the Social Security Commissioners (on whose work the Tribunals base how they make their decisions with regard to individual cases) deal with law and precedent, not with _zeitgeiste_ or discourse.
> I'm not sure whether the process has changed yet, but IIRC you have to request a review of the decision first. Why not mail them asking for a review, and requesting a copy of your assessment? That way you can see whether they've cocked the assessment, and whether they've done it enough to warrant going for an appeal.


 
Yeah, I will write requesting a review - There are some things I reckon the healthcare professional reported inaccurately anyway. And if it was someone else, I'd tell them to at least make a token effort. Cheers.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 7, 2012)

Furthermore Frances, if you give up, then you're only helping them claim that ESA/DLA fraud has fallen because their numbers will be lower, but the newpapers (ie. Daily Mail/Scum) won't bother reporting that Frances Lengel and others are genuinely disabled and have given up in despair, they'll claim you didn't need it in the first place


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Furthermore Frances, if you give up, then you're only helping them claim that ESA/DLA fraud has fallen because their numbers will be lower, but the newpapers (ie. Daily Mail/Scum) won't bother reporting that Frances Lengel and others are genuinely disabled and have given up in despair, they'll claim you didn't need it in the first place


 
True.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> True.


 
I hated saying that in case you got the wrong idea and thought I was a DM reader


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Furthermore Frances, if you give up, then you're only helping them claim that ESA/DLA fraud has fallen because their numbers will be lower, but the newpapers (ie. Daily Mail/Scum) won't bother reporting that Frances Lengel and others are genuinely disabled and have given up in despair, they'll claim you didn't need it in the first place


^^^^This. Don't be part of their rhetoric and lies about how the WCA is working. It's not.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I hated saying that in case you got the wrong idea and thought I was a DM reader


 
I always had you down as more the Express type - The poor man's Daily Mail


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I always had you down as more the Express type - The poor man's Daily Mail


 
erm... what type read The Express?  I don't think I've ever bought it


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## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I always had you down as more the Express type - The poor man's Daily Mail


I treat the Daily Mail more like Viz.


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 7, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> erm... what type read The Express? I don't think I've ever bought it


 
I was only joking, but the express is like a ten pee version of the mail


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 7, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://www.benefitanswers.co.uk/Non...ESA50-with-descriptors/flypage.tpl.html?pop=0
> 
> I have a copy of this if anyone needs it and doesn't want to pay. PM me your email address and I will
> send it.


 

A reminder: I have a digital copy of this and am happy to *email* it to anyone who would like a look at it.


----------



## Celt (Nov 7, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Well, I got my letter this morning about the results of my medical & that's me out of the eurovision. Nul points.
> 
> I do consider myself quite appealing, but I doubt I'll bother appealing against this decision, I'm just going to sign on for JSA. I know by doing that I'm doing exactly what the system wants, but I simply can't be arsed with it all - You know how it is. Anyway, I'd more or less reconciled myself to this happening - It's the way things are going, you can't appeal against the zeitgiest.


 
please re think this.  I understand you feeling that way, but the more people who accept the decisions and are put down by this regime, the harder it will get for us all, when they claim it as a success and justify this hideous process because "it works", people will support you, you are not alone.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 7, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I treat the Daily Mail more like Viz.


 
I keep seeing links about someone called  Honey Boo Boo but i,ve never clicked on link to see who she is. Her name alone disturbs me 



Frances Lengel said:


> I was only joking, but the express is like a ten pee version of the mail


----------



## Celt (Nov 7, 2012)

i know that my medical brought me nil points, I only got my 15 points and WRAG through talking to the DWP bod who rang me and who I now know my mental health issues were taken into account, this wasn't cos they care about me, but to many of us mentlers attempting suicide looking bad for the cause. I have been bowed by the process, and I am aware that I will have to apply for pip in March and then start the esa thing again in 12 months, so am going to be on a semi permanent show yourself to ATOS loop, so I am going to get back on my feet and attack the fucker.

And will try and support others through this.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 8, 2012)

Celt said:


> i know that my medical brought me nil points, I only got my 15 points and WRAG through talking to the DWP bod who rang me and who I now know my mental health issues were taken into account, this wasn't cos they care about me, but to many of us mentlers attempting suicide looking bad for the cause. I have been bowed by the process, and I am aware that I will have to apply for pip in March and then start the esa thing again in 12 months, so am going to be on a semi permanent show yourself to ATOS loop, so I am going to get back on my feet and attack the fucker.
> 
> And will try and support others through this.


 
Good for you Celt


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## Frumious B. (Nov 8, 2012)

Frances, to do a proper job on your appeal I strongly recommend you read everything at benefitsandwork.co.uk. The subscription is a bargain because it will save you tons of money and misery and stress and uncertainty. If you can't afford it people here will send you the documents - just ask.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 8, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> Frances, to do a proper job on your appeal I strongly recommend you read everything at benefitsandwork.co.uk. The subscription is a bargain because it will save you tons of money and misery and stress and uncertainty. If you can't afford it people here will send you the documents - just ask.


 
I just got a discount and got it renewed for just under £9.50


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## Frumious B. (Nov 8, 2012)

And Frances, if the appeal paperwork seems daunting, just imagine how much worse it will be to go to the Jobcentre every fortnight and prove that you've been looking for work every day and applying for at least two jobs per week........you'll get miserable and stressed, your symptoms will get worse and you'll end up being forced to claim ESA all over again...by which time that IDS fucker will have made the rules even worse...that's what happened to me. If you appeal now you will still receive ESA at the assessment rate while you are waiting for the tribunal. But if you do it next year, IDS is hoping you'll get nothing.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 8, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> I was only joking, but the express is like a ten pee version of the mail


Much to my despair,  my parents read both.


----------



## toggle (Nov 8, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> A reminder: I have a digital copy of this and am happy to *email* it to anyone who would like a look at it.


 
don't need that, but thanks.

could do with the equiv for dla.


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## Greebo (Nov 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Much to my despair, my parents read both.


For the wordgames and cartoons, honest.


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## Celt (Nov 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Much to my despair, my parents read both.


 
my mum likes the tv paper that comes with the saturday mail and the crossword in the sunday express


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 9, 2012)

Got the letter written requesting they look again at the decision & a written explaination etc. I'll post it (recorded) in the morning.


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## Bakunin (Nov 9, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got the letter written requesting they look again at the decision & a written explaination etc. I'll post it (recorded) in the morning.


 
IIRC (I could be wrong so check before you post this letter), the DWP have a policy of not accepting any letter that needs to be signed for or otherwise confirmed as having been received. Not that this policy makes it easier for them to claim not to have received something when it's convenient for them to do so, definitely, absolutely not the case at all.

Especially not when it's something that's in any way supportive of a claimant's case.


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 9, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> IIRC (I could be wrong so check before you post this letter), the DWP have a policy of not accepting any letter that needs to be signed for or otherwise confirmed as having been received. Not that this policy makes it easier for them to claim not to have received something when it's convenient for them to do so, definitely, absolutely not the case at all.
> 
> Especially not when it's something that's in any way supportive of a claimant's case.


 
Never heard of that before - I sent my ESA medical questionnaire by recorded and this form they recently sent me asking if all my details were correct.


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## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got the letter written requesting they look again at the decision & a written explaination etc. I'll post it (recorded) in the morning.


If you would like me to look at it, I'm happy to help - I'm sure it's good though


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## ash (Nov 9, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Never heard of that before - I sent my ESA medical questionnaire by recorded and this form they recently sent me asking if all my details were correct.


Same here recorded is defiantly the best option.


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## Quartz (Nov 9, 2012)

Doesn't it have to be Registered rather than Recorded these days to absolutely ensure delivery?


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## ash (Nov 9, 2012)

Quartz said:


> Doesn't it have to be Registered rather than Recorded these days to absolutely ensure delivery?



Good question these days it is special delivery that guarantees next day and signed for I think it cost £5 or £6.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 9, 2012)

ash said:


> Same here recorded is defiantly the best option.


 
Defiantly *and* definitely!


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## WouldBe (Nov 10, 2012)

What happens if you're on JSA and hand a sick note in?

I vaguely recall seeing something that they stop your JSA.

If you request to go back on ESA do they pay you anything or do you have to live of thin air until you've been through the ATOS mill?


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## Frumious B. (Nov 10, 2012)

This is off the top of my head and could be wrong - I haven't the energy to look up chapter and verse.  JSA stops right away. Assuming enough time has elapsed since any previous ESA claim, and your case is a simple one, not complicated by stuff like having assets, you should start getting payments at the assessment rate after three or four months, i.e. after your ESA50 has been processed and before your ATOS medical.  If you run out of money for food in the meantime you can get a crisis loan.


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## WouldBe (Nov 11, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> If you run out of money for food in the meantime you can get a crisis loan.


 This will happen and I can't face the shit of more DWP paperwork.


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## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2012)

WouldBe said:


> This will happen and I can't face the shit of more DWP paperwork.


{{{wouldbe}}}


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## Frumious B. (Nov 11, 2012)

Wouldbe, you might just have to bite the bullet sooner or later.  Being ill while claiming JSA is tough and risky. Can you get help with the paperwork? If you subscribe to benefitsandwork you will at least know precisely how to answer every question. And if/when your ESA claim is finally processed and you get into the WRAG or the Support Group your benefits will go up a fair bit, and the increase will be backdated to when you started the claim, so you get a big fat lump sum.  

Re the crisis loans, it's all done on the phone, so there's bugger all paperwork. 

Are you getting housing benefit? You have to plan for the effect that a switch from JSA to ESA will have on that.


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## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2012)

If there is anything I can do to help please ask, wouldbe


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## WouldBe (Nov 12, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> If you subscribe to benefitsandwork you will at least know precisely how to answer every question.


Can't concentrate for long enough to wade through a massive website like that. Then my memory is so bad I wouldn't remember what I've read anyway which is why it takes me 3 months to fill in an ESA or DLA form. 



> Re the crisis loans, it's all done on the phone, so there's bugger all paperwork.






> Are you getting housing benefit? You have to plan for the effect that a switch from JSA to ESA will have on that.


They haven't sorted out the switch from ESA to JSA yet and I#'ve been signing on since July.  

I'm waiting to hear about my DLA appeal at the moment and I've put in an appeal to the tribunal about my ESA as neither the DWP or the tribunal could come to a fair decision when they were lied to by the HCP.


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## Frumious B. (Nov 12, 2012)

You need someone to help you with the paperwork. Is there anyone you can ask?


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 12, 2012)

http://wearespartacus.org.uk/wca-peoples-review/



> The People’s Review of the Work Capability Assessment (link to report)
> Anticipating the publication of Professor Harrington’s third (and, for him, final) annual review of the Work Capability Assessment, the WeAreSpartacus group have published our own review, from the lived experience of the sick and disabled people going through it. The People’s Review of the Work Capability Assessment includes the experiences of more than 70 claimants who have been wrongly assessed, humiliated, badly treated and forced to go to tribunal to secure the benefits to which they are legally entitled. The review also highlights press reports of some of the claimants who have died after being found fit for work or whose suicide has been linked, at least in part, to the stress of a process which is essentially abusive, demeaning and not fit for purpose. In the final section of the review, we examine what has been said about the WCA by the Government, MP’s, courts, professional bodies, medical organisations and individual medical professionals. This section includes full references, including replies to Freedom of Information requests, so readers can check the facts for themselves.


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## audiotech (Nov 14, 2012)

Frumious B. said:


> If you run out of money for food in the meantime you can get a crisis loan.


 
Last time I rang to get a crisis loan, I got a lecture on 'protecting the public purse'. Bad move, it's a loan to be paid back muppet. Then the conversation moved onto: 'Sir do you have any food?' That said, I got bugger all.


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## Greebo (Nov 14, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Last time I rang to get a crisis loan, I got a lecture on 'protecting the public purse'. Bad move, it's a loan to be paid back muppet. Then the conversation moved onto: 'Sir do you have any food?' That said, I got bugger all.


FFS  tbf the question about food could have been a gateway to a foodbank referral, but even so.


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## tufty79 (Nov 14, 2012)

every crisis loan application i ever made has asked what food i've got in.


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## toggle (Nov 18, 2012)

asessment on tuesday.

in the meantime, i thought i'd share this little exchange after my daugher and i cooked cakes.


me: fruitcakes need a lot of TLC
bakunin: yes, I do.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 18, 2012)

Good luck toggle

Are you going to take your fruitcake with you?


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## toggle (Nov 18, 2012)

which one?

although they might think i was the loopy one walking in with a wrapped up chrimble cake


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## equationgirl (Nov 18, 2012)

Best of luck toggle & bakunin 

I'm not likely to be on urban until Friday night so will catch up with the outcome/fallout then.


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## toggle (Nov 18, 2012)

if we keep the lower rate care, we will accept that, even though, as you say, he likely should get more.

but


we are expecting nothing, then to have to appeal to get that.


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## WouldBe (Nov 19, 2012)

toggle said:


> although they might think i was the loopy one walking in with a wrapped up chrimble cake


I'd like to see them assess it's walking capabilities. 

Mind you knowing ATOS they would probably still declare it fit for work.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 19, 2012)

toggle said:


> which one?
> 
> although they might think i was the loopy one walking in with a wrapped up chrimble cake


 
hm, depends really.  If it's a female assessor who may fancy Bakunin, then obviously you need to bring the Bakunin fruitcake. 

If the assessor looks like they enjoy a bit too much food, then maybe you should produce the other fruitcake, on the understanding that you're not trying to bribe them of course


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## toggle (Nov 19, 2012)

going through some of the stuff he has trouble with and relatin it to the descriptors. he is getting stressed about not being normal. im getting stressed cause having to do this is upsetting him.

i don't care about what he can't do. I don't care about the things he needs help to do. cause it's all minor inconveniences compared to the joy i get from having him in my life. and there is so much he can do that i forget until times like theser that he has never been able to do this much without having someone there who can help him focus. but with that, he is achieving so much.

but as much as we are focussed now on explaining the mess he would be in without me there to guide him, I need to remind him that I would be a mess, just in different ways, without him in my life. I've been through a long relationship with a narcissist that ended as a living hell. I never thought i'd trust anyone close to me again. but i think his openness and honesty about who he was and his difficulties in life helped me see that he was someone who wasn't going to try to be someone else. plus, you really don't get aspies who are narcissists.so in a way, being loopy is the reason i was able to take that leap of faith and risk trusting him. i'm not idiot enough to think i can portray being loopy as a positive thing, but it isn't all negative on top of negative.

but i think at times like these, he needs a reminder that he is the support I need as much as i am his. and just because he is the one that is diagnosed as needing some extra help, dosen't mean that he needs to feel bad about taking that from me, cause I know, every day, how much better my life is with him. how much support i take from him.

and if i tell him, he will brush it off.

if i tell everyone, that tells him i really believe it.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 19, 2012)

toggle said:


> going through some of the stuff he has trouble with and relatin it to the descriptors. he is getting stressed about not being normal. im getting stressed cause having to do this is upsetting him.
> 
> i don't care about what he can't do. I don't care about the things he needs help to do. cause it's all minor inconveniences compared to the joy i get from having him in my life. and there is so much he can do that i forget until times like theser that he has never been able to do this much without having someone there who can help him focus. but with that, he is achieving so much.
> 
> ...


 
Listen to toggle Bakunin.  Loves ya to bits!


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 19, 2012)

toggle said:


> going through some of the stuff he has trouble with and relatin it to the descriptors. he is getting stressed about not being normal. im getting stressed cause having to do this is upsetting him.


 
He bloody well shouldn't! Who'd want to be "normal" if those fucks at the DWP measure normality in terms of "normal people are people like me"? Not me!
Besides, having BPD doesn't make him "abnormal", nor does having an ASD, they merely make him non-average and (very) non-boring.



> i don't care about what he can't do. I don't care about the things he needs help to do. cause it's all minor inconveniences compared to the joy i get from having him in my life. and there is so much he can do that i forget until times like theser that he has never been able to do this much without having someone there who can help him focus. but with that, he is achieving so much.
> 
> but as much as we are focussed now on explaining the mess he would be in without me there to guide him, I need to remind him that I would be a mess, just in different ways, without him in my life. I've been through a long relationship with a narcissist that ended as a living hell. I never thought i'd trust anyone close to me again. but i think his openness and honesty about who he was and his difficulties in life helped me see that he was someone who wasn't going to try to be someone else. plus, you really don't get aspies who are narcissists.


 
I've met a few who are self-absorbed, but that's not quite the same.



> so in a way, being loopy is the reason i was able to take that leap of faith and risk trusting him. i'm not idiot enough to think i can portray being loopy as a positive thing, but it isn't all negative on top of negative.
> 
> but i think at times like these, he needs a reminder that he is the support I need as much as i am his. and just because he is the one that is diagnosed as needing some extra help, dosen't mean that he needs to feel bad about taking that from me, cause I know, every day, how much better my life is with him. how much support i take from him.
> 
> ...


 
I think it was pretty much absolutely obvious to all of us how you felt about each other, as soon as you outed yourselves as a couple.


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## toggle (Nov 19, 2012)

i know, we'd only been together a few weeks by then.

but in day to day life, i remind him of what needs doing and he's all ok about that. and i take care of stuff he can't do and we talk together about stuff that need doing and we write lists so he remembers. this is a reminder that he can't cope on his own. that although what i do is no big deal to us when it's happening, that i am carer as well as partner. cause he wouldn't be achieving what he has without me.

and while he's never going to be the sort to get arsey about it, he has always wanted to be an independent person. to not rely on others. to not cause trouble.

the place he was living in in plymouth, belonged to a relative of his stepfather. bakunin didn't say to anyone the state it was in. didn't tell his parents, didn't report it to the housing officer, cause he didn't want to cause trouble. and he wanted to 'cope' without having to fuss about everything. when living in piss poor conditions and with constant abuse from neighbours caused him to loose the plot, the housing people took one look at the place and condemmed it. in a way, trying too hard to cope has caused some of the worst problems he has had. having to admit he needs that help is always going to be the hardest thing for him.

what he needs to understand is that to me, it's no big deal. what he brings to me is far greater than what he takes. as a mother of 3 lovelly kids, i can't say he's the best thing that has ever happened to me. but they love him as well. he is the best thing that could have ahpened to us. so having to take a day off work to go to apointments with him, cause he gets wibbley, or reminding him that the washing up won't do itself, that's no biggie.

and i'll point out i've had no work in a couple of weeks and we are living off what he is earning from his writing. so it's about time he stopped thinking of himself as useless. cause he isn't.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 19, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think it was pretty much absolutely obvious to all of us how you felt about each other, as soon as you outed yourselves as a couple.


----------



## Firky (Nov 19, 2012)

Wasn't sure which thread to post this in, I think it speaks volumes.

ATOS work assessment centre:


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 19, 2012)

firky said:


> Wasn't sure which thread to post this in, I think it speaks volumes.
> 
> ATOS work assessment centre:


 
Would be funny if it wasn't so fucking tragic and probably part of the test itself


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 20, 2012)

toggle said:


> i know, we'd only been together a few weeks by then.
> 
> but in day to day life, i remind him of what needs doing and he's all ok about that. and i take care of stuff he can't do and we talk together about stuff that need doing and we write lists so he remembers. this is a reminder that he can't cope on his own. that although what i do is no big deal to us when it's happening, that i am carer as well as partner. cause he wouldn't be achieving what he has without me.
> 
> ...


 
I don't have a tear in my eye, it's dust, damn it. Dust!!!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 20, 2012)

toggle said:


> what he needs to understand is that to me, it's no big deal. what he brings to me is far greater than what he takes. as a mother of 3 lovelly kids, i can't say he's the best thing that has ever happened to me. but they love him as well. he is the best thing that could have ahpened to us. so having to take a day off work to go to apointments with him, cause he gets wibbley, or reminding him that the washing up won't do itself, that's no biggie.


 
Can you send him in here so we can all line up to give him a kick up the arse please whilst holding up a big notice stating your feelings?

*gets hobnails ready*


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## toggle (Nov 20, 2012)

atos now claiming he called and cancelled the apointment.

he didn't. he requested a home visit, and was told that he had to get gp's letter, but to assume that the original apointment stood until their decision.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 20, 2012)




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## toggle (Nov 20, 2012)

don't know what's going on atm.

don't know if the woman was correct and the apt was cancelled. or if we're being screwed.

appt at 1.30 today.


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## toggle (Nov 20, 2012)

that was the local office. according to the national appointments line, we have just been told and i shall quote ' a bunch of bollocks'

but the apointment was cancelled and we will wait for a decision on the home visit


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 20, 2012)

toggle said:


> that was the local office. according to the national appointments line, we have just been told and i shall quote ' a bunch of bollocks'
> 
> but the apointment was cancelled and we will wait for a decision on the home visit


 
National appointments or local office said bunch of bollocks?


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## toggle (Nov 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> National appointments or local office said bunch of bollocks?


 

national appointments said local office were talking bollocks.

and i've just got out of him that he asked local office whether this would affect his dla. and got told, 'i don't know, this office deals wth esa'. now eithe local office really is talking bollocks, or something is wrong. cause we don't claim esa or any other income related benefits. only thing we claim is DLA. which then passports us to extra bits on tax credits and HB/CTB

he is all in a stress now.


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## Frankie Jack (Nov 20, 2012)

ATOS Declares Dead Man Fit for Work
“It was a nightmare,” Rosemary, Mr. Wright’s widow, stated. “The doctor assessing James asked him to stand up, so he did before slumping into a squatting position. The doctor took one look at him and said, ‘I’m placing you in the Work Program.’
Then he got up and shook James’s shoulder, and when he fell over, said that he’d be back when James had finished his ‘play-acting.’ It was quite obvious that he was dead.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 20, 2012)

Frankie Jack said:


> ATOS Declares Dead Man Fit for Work
> “It was a nightmare,” Rosemary, Mr. Wright’s widow, stated. “The doctor assessing James asked him to stand up, so he did before slumping into a squatting position. The doctor took one look at him and said, ‘I’m placing you in the Work Program.’
> Then he got up and shook James’s shoulder, and when he fell over, said that he’d be back when James had finished his ‘play-acting.’ It was quite obvious that he was dead.


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## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2012)

I spoke to the DLA bods who told me they hadn't asked for an assessment and had nothing outstanding from their end, and then it occurred to me that I originally made a claim for I.B back in 1999. I didn't get the benefit but I am still receiving the NI credits. I'm eligible for them and always have been, but it was so long ago that I'd completely forgotten about it. DLA bods have me another number to ring (Jobcentre Plus) who confirmed that even though I'm only getting NI credits, anybody receiving either credits only or credits with benefits that are disability-related will be up for assessment if they haven't been assessed already.

Basically, they want to assess me because of the original claim in 1999 that got me NI credits, not because of my DLA. I'm hoping (though not necessarily expecting) that they might be less keen on shafting people who are only receiving credits rather than getting payments as well. Time will tell on that one, I suppose.


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## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2012)

I also have a question for the better-informed bods here regarding these Work Capability Assessments:

As I'm being assessed because of getting NI credits on the 1999 IB claim (awarded credits only and no payments) rather than regarding my DLA, will the ATOS decision on my medical affect my DLA entitlement or do I just risk losing my NI credits? As our combined incomes (mine and Toggle's) are above the maximum limit for me to get ESA, if they try and shunt me onto ESA (which I won't qualify for anyway as far as I understand it) what exactly would be the point of their assessing me and then trying to put me onto something I already I won't get?

I've also just spent some time checking carefully through the ESA criteria and I'd get (in a fair and accurate assessment) 63 points based on the limited capability for work section and at least 2 of the limited capacity for work-related activity section.

Regarding my chances of the aforementioned 'fair and accurate assessment' I strongly suspect that ATOS will probably pass me fit for SAS Selection.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 21, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> I also have a question for the better-informed bods here regarding these Work Capability Assessments:
> 
> As I'm being assessed because of getting NI credits on the 1999 IB claim (awarded credits only and no payments) rather than regarding my DLA, will the ATOS decision on my medical affect my DLA entitlement or do I just risk losing my NI credits? As our combined incomes (mine and Toggle's) are above the maximum limit for me to get ESA, if they try and shunt me onto ESA (which I won't qualify for anyway as far as I understand it) what exactly would be the point of their assessing me and then trying to put me onto something I already I won't get?
> 
> ...


 
No your ESA/NI credits assesment won't affect your DLA - They're assessed on different criteria.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> No your ESA/NI credits assesment won't affect your DLA - They're assessed on different criteria.


 
Thanks, that's very important.

I'll pass that on to Toggle when she gets home.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 21, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Thanks, that's very important.
> 
> I'll pass that on to Toggle when she gets home.


 
No worries mate - You can actually be in full time employment and still be eligible for DLA. DLA's assessed on legal rather than medical criteria, it's awarded depending whether it's deemed you need help with certain everyday tasks, the extra income afforded by DLA is meant to ameliorate for the extra expense incurred by needing help - Crucially whether you're getting the help (from a partner for example) or not.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> No worries mate - You can actually be in full time employment and still be eligible for DLA. DLA's assessed on legal rather than medical criteria, it's awarded depending whether it's deemed you need help with certain everyday tasks, the extra income afforded by DLA is meant to ameliorate for the extra expense incurred by needing help - Crucially whether you're getting the help (from a partner for example) or not.


 

See, I wonder if they're going to change that one day to reflect the fact that a person needing help from a partner doesn't actually incur extra costs etc. whereas someone in a wheelchair may need money for new wheels etc. 

Having said that, my b/f often gives me money for my Oyster Card etc. as most of it is spent doing stuff for him


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> See, I wonder if they're going to change that one day to reflect the fact that a person needing help from a partner doesn't actually incur extra costs etc. whereas someone in a wheelchair may need money for new wheels etc.
> 
> Having said that, my b/f often gives me money for my Oyster Card etc. as most of it is spent doing stuff for him


 
It'll more than likely change when this PIP effort comes in. Plus it'll probably be means tested.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> It'll more than likely change when this PIP effort comes in. Plus it'll probably be means tested.


 
So will people lose money just because they don't incur additional costs like special diets, wheels, taxis etc.?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> So will people lose money just because they don't incur additional costs like special diets, wheels, taxis etc.?


 
Probably - I'm only guessing based on the way things seem to be going though.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Probably - I'm only guessing based on the way things seem to be going though.


 
Blimey, so basically you could end up getting nothing?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

I shall be having a look at this

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/personal-independence-payment-faqs.pdf


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

Waste of time.  Doesn't tell you much


----------



## Greebo (Nov 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Waste of time. Doesn't tell you much


What a load of anodyne weasel words that pdf was. I need a drink.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 21, 2012)

Just had a phone call from ATOS. Surprisingly, they've approved my request for a home visit AND they've agreed to it being recorded. They'll be in touch with an appointment as soon as one becomes available. Having discussed this with Toggle (whose laptop has a webcam) I was thinking of slipping a piece of masking tape over the webcam 'ON' light and 'accidentally' leaving it running so we could have digital-quality audio and vision (not that their recording might be shorter in duration owing to bits being 'accidentally' edited out or 'lost' due to technical faults in their recording equipment, obviously. I wouldn't dream of even thinking that they might do that, oh no).

Just in case it should prove handy during an appeal and purely for research purposes, obviously.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 21, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Just had a phone call from ATOS. Surprisingly, they've approved my request for a home visit AND they've agreed to it being recorded.


 
Well done. Agreeing to being recorded means Atos will provide an assessor who should know what they're doing. Some Atos employed fuckwit being recorded they don't want.


----------



## toggle (Nov 21, 2012)

and i've also got him to aggree that


*HE WILL NOT HIDE PAPERWORK FROM ME EVER, BLOODY EVER AGAIN*


cause he only does it to try to aviod stressing me out. and when he gets in a tizz about stuff, then it only stresses me out more that we didn't have a chance to work though this together. and being self reliant does not mean you don't ask for help when you bloody need it.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 21, 2012)

DO NOT HIDE PAPERWORK FROM TOGGLE EVER AGAIN BAKUNIN!

That's him told


----------



## Greebo (Nov 21, 2012)

toggle said:


> and i've also got him to aggree that
> 
> 
> *HE WILL NOT HIDE PAPERWORK FROM ME EVER, BLOODY EVER AGAIN*
> <snip>


Well done, both of you on that, and good luck sticking to it.


----------



## audiotech (Nov 22, 2012)

Heads-up! HM Customs and Excise have sent out letters claiming under-paid tax. This appears to be an attempt to claw some of the back-dated monies received after appeals decisions awarded in the previous tax year.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 22, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Heads-up! HM Customs and Excise have sent out letters claiming under-paid tax.<snip>


Thanks for the warning.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 22, 2012)

dp


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2012)

View Full-Size Image

*ESA50 with descriptors*
*Price per Unit (piece):* £2.49 
Ask a question about this product
This form not only shows the descriptors and points for each descriptor but an explanation of how to explain how your problems meet each descriptor.

Read more at http://www.benefitanswers.co.uk/Non-Means-Tested-Benefit-Fact-Sheets/ESA50-with-descriptors/flypage.tpl.html?pop=0#Q9tzAaztGDJCrkQW.99​
http://www.benefitanswers.co.uk/Non...ESA50-with-descriptors/flypage.tpl.html?pop=0

*REMINDER:* I have a copy of this if anyone needs it and doesn't want to pay. PM me your email address and I will
send it. ​


----------



## toggle (Nov 22, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Heads-up! HM Customs and Excise have sent out letters claiming under-paid tax. This appears to be an attempt to claw some of the back-dated monies received after appeals decisions awarded in the previous tax year.


 
do you know any more detail about this?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 22, 2012)

Toggle, please tell B to look at his PMs


----------



## audiotech (Nov 22, 2012)

toggle said:


> do you know any more detail about this?


 
Not much, but the reference contains the letters ESA within, so one can presume.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 24, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> See, I wonder if they're going to change that one day to reflect *the fact that a person needing help from a partner doesn't actually incur extra costs etc*. whereas someone in a wheelchair may need money for new wheels etc.
> 
> Having said that, my b/f often gives me money for my Oyster Card etc. as most of it is spent doing stuff for him


I've been thinking about this. I think that in some cases that wouldn't be true, for example if neither person could drive and they both got public transport, but the person on DLA might need to get a taxi to/from work sometimes. That would be extra costs. Or have I got things muddled?


----------



## toggle (Nov 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I've been thinking about this. I think that in some cases that wouldn't be true, for example if neither person could drive and they both got public transport, but the person on DLA might need to get a taxi to/from work sometimes. That would be extra costs. Or have I got things muddled?


 
hmmmm, guess they could ignore the times i've taken time off work to do things like get him to apintments


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 24, 2012)

toggle said:


> hmmmm, guess they could ignore the times i've taken time off work to do things like get him to apintments


So that's an extra cost to you, because of the loss of pay.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> So that's an extra cost to you, because of the loss of pay.


Indeed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> So that's an extra cost to you, because of the loss of pay.


 

but not to us carers who are already underpaid


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> but not to us carers who are already underpaid


You're underwriting the NHS.

Is there a carer's allowance? Don't see why carers can't get at least the mimimum wage plus a supplement because of the out of hours elements.


----------



## Celt (Nov 25, 2012)

i heard an amazing tale today.  After my experience with the ATOS medical, service users for the charity I volunteer for have also been called.

"Jane" told me of her interview for ESA a week ago, where 10 mins into it, the ATOS bod stopped the medical and said she would recommend Jane be granted support group status, without further phsyical check and would be recommended that she shouldn't be further examined for benefit.  The interviewer said she may work for ATOS but it doesn't mean she agrees with them."

"Jane" lives in a residential home, has asthma and bi-polar disorder.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

Celt said:


> i heard an amazing tale today. After my experience with the ATOS medical, service users for the charity I volunteer for have also been called.
> 
> "Jane" told me of her interview for ESA a week ago, where 10 mins into it, the ATOS bod stopped the medical and said she would recommend Jane be granted support group status, without further phsyical check and would be recommended that she shouldn't be further examined for benefit. The interviewer said she may work for ATOS but it doesn't mean she agrees with them."
> 
> "Jane" lives in a residential home, has asthma and bi-polar disorder.


 
It's also a tactic for just getting you your 15 points but not going any further with assessment and getting your full set of points (or so I read)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You're underwriting the NHS.
> 
> Is there a carer's allowance? Don't see why carers can't get at least the mimimum wage plus a supplement because of the out of hours elements.


 
Yeah right


----------



## existentialist (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> You're underwriting the NHS.
> 
> Is there a carer's allowance? Don't see why carers can't get at least the mimimum wage plus a supplement because of the out of hours elements.



Ah, but remember that they've got to Make Work Pay. Start paying a living wage to carers, and everybody will want to be one instead of having a proper (Mc) job!


----------



## Greebo (Nov 25, 2012)

existentialist said:


> Ah, but remember that they've got to Make Work Pay. Start paying a living wage to carers, and everybody will want to be one instead of having a proper (Mc) job!


Only a few months ago, I worked out that if I (as a carer) were paid even the minimum wage rate for every hour that I'm on call as well as doing anything, I'd earn enough money for both VP and I to live well enough (even in London) with no other income.  However, I'm not sure how being permanently on call would fit with current work regulations - probably not at all!


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

You can opt out of the working time regulations so they don't apply.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You can opt out of the working time regulations so they don't apply.


What about the stuff about pensions and sick leave?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> What about the stuff about pensions and sick leave?


 
and holidays!


----------



## Greebo (Nov 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and holidays!


You mean the thing where you and I almost always end up taking our work with us, and just doing the work in a different place?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You mean the thing where you and I almost always end up taking our work with us, just in a different place?


 
Yes, but at least we get to do it somewhere hot and exotic and with good beaches


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 25, 2012)

Celt said:


> i heard an amazing tale today. After my experience with the ATOS medical, service users for the charity I volunteer for have also been called.
> 
> "Jane" told me of her interview for ESA a week ago, where 10 mins into it, the ATOS bod stopped the medical and said she would recommend Jane be granted support group status, without further phsyical check and would be recommended that she shouldn't be further examined for benefit. The interviewer said she may work for ATOS but it doesn't mean she agrees with them."
> 
> "Jane" lives in a residential home, has asthma and bi-polar disorder.


 
VICTORY!

I had my GP call me at about 6pm a couple of nights ago. He was going to refer me unofficially to one of his pther GP colleagues (a former neurologist in a previous life) to check out my ansence seizures. Apparently his colleague recommends that I be referred to Treliske for a full set of tests, probably starting with an EEG rather than checking me out unofficially. Result is that I now have a full-on hospital referral to wave at them if I have to appeal.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, but at least we get to do it somewhere hot and exotic and with good beaches


I wish.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> I wish.


 
Same as.  

Even for me, taking him on holiday was a holiday for me as he'd just swim for hours and hours, because at least that way his feet didn't have to touch the ground, so a lot less pain for him.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

Greebo said:


> What about the stuff about pensions and sick leave?


Of course you should both get those.

It makes me so angry because people like both of you do underwrite the NHS, and you should be entitled to so much more, including pensions, holidays (more than an office worker) and sick pay.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> VICTORY!
> 
> I had my GP call me at about 6pm a couple of nights ago. He was going to refer me unofficially to one of his pther GP colleagues (a former neurologist in a previous life) to check out my ansence seizures. Apparently his colleague recommends that I be referred to Treliske for a full set of tests, probably starting with an EEG rather than checking me out unofficially. Result is that I now have a full-on hospital referral to wave at them if I have to appeal.


Well done to both you and toggle, this is an excellent step forwards.


----------



## toggle (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well done to both you and toggle, this is an excellent step forwards.


 
it's also indicative of how much above and beyond the gp is prepared to go. he indicated supprise that bakunin had been given the home visit, which means he was willing to spend his time offering assistance on something he thought was unlikely, but was willing to try anyway.

also got the referal through to community psych in a few days, they aren't wasting time either.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

toggle said:


> it's also indicative of how much above and beyond the gp is prepared to go. he indicated supprise that bakunin had been given the home visit, which means he was willing to spend his time offering assistance on something he thought was unlikely, but was willing to try anyway.
> 
> also got the referal through to community psych in a few days, they aren't wasting time either.


It's good when they're willing to try. 

Hope this means you're feeling a little less stressed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Of course you should both get those.
> 
> It makes me so angry because people like both of you do underwrite the NHS, and you should be entitled to so much more, including pensions, holidays (more than an office worker) and sick pay.


 
and discounted travel!  Scottish carers get it


----------



## toggle (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> It's good when they're willing to try.
> 
> Hope this means you're feeling a little less stressed.


 

yes.

one less thing on a long list to worry about.

only thing now is to insist on the asessment being when i can be there without having to miss sessions of my courses.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and discounted travel! Scottish carers get it


You don't 

ffs


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> You don't
> 
> ffs


 
No.  Republic of Ireland carers get it as well.  Although both in Scotland and Ireland, you're supposed to be travelling with the person you're caring for, which seems a bit illogical if they're housebound through illness/disability etc.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 25, 2012)

You also get credits for your phone and help with your fuel in Ireland if you're disabled


----------



## ddraig (Nov 26, 2012)

lovely!


> Lung disease patient Marilyn Blakeman suffers from a host of conditions that make it almost impossible for her to travel far.
> These include arthritis, an ulcer, an under-active thyroid, chronic obstructive pulmonary disease (COPD), asthma and total food intolerance – which means she has to live on a diet of special strawberry and banana milkshakes.
> Marilyn is one of thousands to receive a recent letter telling her she must sign on and show willing to work.
> 
> ...


 
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/w...-get-a-job-after-benefits-axe-91466-32300465/


----------



## ddraig (Nov 26, 2012)

oh dear 
her ex husband is a tory election candidate and she threw the pic of them and cameron in the bin!
such a shame


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

@quimcunx looking for a thread


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

I was out, but thanks!   

Yeah so I don't keep up so sorry if this is something that's come up before.  But from something I've just heard you would be well-advised to pay very careful attention to all the paperwork from ATOS in case, say, ooh, I don't know,  there is a document declaring you fit to work signed by a doctor you haven't met via ATOS or otherwise, a doctor you have never heard of, who does not work at your practice who have also never heard of him, and is not known to the GMC.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> I was out, but thanks!
> 
> Yeah so I don't keep up so sorry if this is something that's come up before. But from something I've just heard you would be well-advised to pay very careful attention to all the paperwork from ATOS in case, say, ooh, I don't know, there is a document declaring you fit to work signed by a doctor you haven't met via ATOS or otherwise, a doctor you have never heard of, who does not work at your practice who have also never heard of him, and is not known to the GMC.


 
Well considering it's hard to get the name of the person who assesses you anyway, could they be the "doctor" you're talking about?


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 27, 2012)

They are not doctors though are they?   Whoever this person was they were signing off as doctor. 

according to my sources.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 27, 2012)

Just had a call from the neurology bods and now have an appointment for early January.

Including the psych bods and the toothyankers, does Treliske Hospital do a loyalty card scheme?

The way I'm going I could probably pay for my hearse with Frequent Die-er Miles.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> They are not doctors though are they? Whoever this person was they were signing off as doctor.
> 
> according to my sources.


 
Not all of them, but equationgirl says you can request a doctor experienced in certain conditions


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> They are not doctors though are they? Whoever this person was they were signing off as doctor.
> 
> according to my sources.


 
Not all of them, but equationgirl says you can request a doctor experienced in certain conditions


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Just had a call from the neurology bods and now have an appointment for early January.
> 
> Including the psych bods and the toothyankers, does Treliske Hospital do a loyalty card scheme?
> 
> The way I'm going I could probably pay for my hearse with Frequent Die-er Miles.


 
I sometimes feel like that on behalf of himself 

Anyway, glad you can get Christmas over with first


----------



## toggle (Nov 27, 2012)

he went to check what time his apointment was tomorrow, and found out it was an hour ago.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2012)

toggle said:


> he went to check what time his apointment was tomorrow, and found out it was an hour ago.


----------



## yardbird (Nov 27, 2012)

I'm just here checking the thread.

At my first assessment - years ago,my memory escapes me* - before I had any idea or opinions about ATOS it was the name thing and lack of manners that started me off at them.
I was called into the room by my name and then addressed by the assessor using it. She then launched off, asking me some sort of general question.
I had my notepad open "I'm sorry, I need to write some notes or I may forget. What was your name please?"
Thus it started.
All she had to do was be polite and introduce herself

*Memory errrm...


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 27, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not all of them, but equationgirl says you can request a doctor experienced in certain conditions


I'm just repeating what the DWP themselves advise 

quimcunx - some may be doctors, but Atos tends to use the phrase 'Healthcare Practitioner' or HCP to describe the assessors. The DWP recommends the use of a doctor for certain conditions, and the use of a specialist for others. HCP is used to disguise the fact that many assessors are not doctors or nurses, and may not have direct experiences of certain conditions and the attendant difficulties in managing them.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 27, 2012)

toggle said:


> he went to check what time his apointment was tomorrow, and found out it was an hour ago.


Ooops.

Can you get it rescheduled?


----------



## toggle (Nov 27, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Ooops.
> 
> Can you get it rescheduled?


 
yep.

and i'll write that down


----------



## Quartz (Nov 27, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> VICTORY!


 
Yay!


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 28, 2012)

> *What rabbit hole have we fallen down? My experiences of Atos Work Capability Assessment*


http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


----------



## Greebo (Nov 28, 2012)

Rutita1 said:


> http://purplepersuasion.wordpress.c...periences-of-atos-work-capability-assessment/


I've read it before but if anyone new to this thread hasn't, it's a bit of an eyeopener.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 28, 2012)

I found a more vicious insult to throw at ATOS.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Atos tends to use the phrase 'Healthcare Practitioner' or HCP to describe the assessors.


 
Which is as close to their actual fitness for the job as stating that Harold Shipman had a questionable prescribing policy.

Or have they hired him as an assessor as well?


----------



## quimcunx (Nov 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> quimcunx - some may be doctors, but Atos tends to use the phrase 'Healthcare Practitioner' or HCP to describe the assessors. The DWP recommends the use of a doctor for certain conditions, and the use of a specialist for others. HCP is used to disguise the fact that many assessors are not doctors or nurses, and may not have direct experiences of certain conditions and the attendant difficulties in managing them.


 
according to what I heard (third hand)  is that in their papers from ATOS there was a letter signed by a Doctor, not HCP,  saying the claimant was fit for work.  The claimant had no recollection of meeting any doctor with the name given and no such doctor could be found. 

Of course they might have picked up the wrong end of the stick.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 28, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> according to what I heard (third hand) is that in their papers from ATOS there was a letter signed by a Doctor, not HCP, saying the claimant was fit for work. The claimant had no recollection of meeting any doctor with the name given and no such doctor could be found.
> 
> Of course they might have picked up the wrong end of the stick.


Under the Data Protection Act, all information held about a person must be released to that person if a Data Protection Request is made. This may be worth doing. Also, have they checked the GMC Register? Historical data can also be checked:

http://www.gmc-uk.org/doctors/register/LRMP.asp


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 28, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> Which is as close to their actual fitness for the job as stating that Harold Shipman had a questionable prescribing policy.
> 
> Or have they hired him as an assessor as well?


I'm sure they would if they could.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 28, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I'm sure they would if they could.


 
And they'd probably have Doctors Crippen, Mengele and Palmer presiding at appeals tribunals as well.

ATOS would probably have declared Lazarus fit for work as his condition had suddenly taken a turn for the better.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 28, 2012)

Bakunin said:


> And they'd probably have Doctors Crippen, Mengele and Palmer presiding at appeals tribunals as well.
> 
> ATOS would probably have declared Lazarus fit for work as his condition had suddenly taken a turn for the better.


 
I can never remember what happened to Lazarus after JesusAtos declared him fit for work. How long was it before he keeled over?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Nov 29, 2012)

> 'We are the Atos Story Collective.We want to tell the stories that ATOS would like to ban.We want to hear from people who have experienced ATOS assessments. We will use these stories to create a piece of drama that tells the world the truth about ATOS Healthcare. If you'd like to share your story with us, please send it to atosstories@gmail.com by 31st December 2011. We promise to acknowledge every story and make sure to use it as effectively as we can.'
> http://atosstories.blogspot.co.uk/


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2012)

I think that's out of date - they turned the experiences into monologues and performances to be staged wherever. I don't think they're looking for new material


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's out of date - they turned the experiences into monologues and performances to be staged wherever. I don't think they're looking for new material


 
Doesn't look very current does it


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Doesn't look very current does it


No it doesn't. Sounds interesting though, what they've done with the material.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2012)

All the travelling I've done has really affected my back. It's taking a long time to settle down, and today when I stood up from my desk mid-afternoon it gave way and I nearly fell over. Luckily I managed to steady myself on the desk and it went back to normal, but it did worry me a bit and make me think what would happen if it gets worse. Fingers crossed it settles down soon, else I'll have to go back to the doctor.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 29, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> All the travelling I've done has really affected my back. It's taking a long time to settle down, and today when I stood up from my desk mid-afternoon it gave way and I nearly fell over. Luckily I managed to steady myself on the desk and it went back to normal, but it did worry me a bit and make me think what would happen if it gets worse. Fingers crossed it settles down soon, else I'll have to go back to the doctor.


 
Can't you use a walking stick for a bit of support or do you not want to?


----------



## Quartz (Nov 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> All the travelling I've done has really affected my back. It's taking a long time to settle down, and today when I stood up from my desk mid-afternoon it gave way and I nearly fell over. Luckily I managed to steady myself on the desk and it went back to normal, but it did worry me a bit and make me think what would happen if it gets worse. Fingers crossed it settles down soon, else I'll have to go back to the doctor.


 
((equationgirl))

I think you should go back to the doctor anyway. Get them to help you stop it getting worse. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Or is that grams and tonnes these days?


----------



## Meltingpot (Nov 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> All the travelling I've done has really affected my back. It's taking a long time to settle down, and today when I stood up from my desk mid-afternoon it gave way and I nearly fell over. Luckily I managed to steady myself on the desk and it went back to normal, but it did worry me a bit and make me think what would happen if it gets worse. Fingers crossed it settles down soon, else I'll have to go back to the doctor.


 
Poor you ((eg)). I agree with Minnie that a walking stick sounds like a good idea, at least for the time being.


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## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't you use a walking stick for a bit of support or do you not want to?


Not until I really have to, although there a few people at work who use them so I wouldn't feel too conspicuous.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2012)

Quartz said:


> ((equationgirl))
> 
> I think you should go back to the doctor anyway. Get them to help you stop it getting worse. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Or is that grams and tonnes these days?


I think I might have to - I've only ever seen this doctor for meds though, not treatment because I was diagnosed and given a pain management plan before I moved. I suspect he'll want to refer me to an orthopaedic consultant, which means more waiting and yet another doctor to add to the list.

Definitely hurts when I sit and hurts when I stand though. Literally a pain in the arse.


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2012)

The People's Review of the WCA
https://www.thunderclap.it/projects/632-the-people-s-review-of-the-wca


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 1, 2012)

*Psychological Therapies 2012 Welfare Reform*

*Lord David Freud, Minister for Welfare Reform Speech at Todays Conference*
http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2012/12/01/psychological-therapies-2012-welfare-reform/


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## Bakunin (Dec 2, 2012)

Something to consider if you're facing an ATOS medical any time soon:

http://mikesivier.wordpress.com/2012/12/01/only-you-can-close-the-atos-slaughterhouse/#comments


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## Treacle Toes (Dec 3, 2012)

> employment and support allowance factsheet updated | @*scoopit* http://sco.lt/4mia3d


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## equationgirl (Dec 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> All the travelling I've done has really affected my back. It's taking a long time to settle down, and today when I stood up from my desk mid-afternoon it gave way and I nearly fell over. Luckily I managed to steady myself on the desk and it went back to normal, but it did worry me a bit and make me think what would happen if it gets worse. Fingers crossed it settles down soon, else I'll have to go back to the doctor.





Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't you use a walking stick for a bit of support or do you not want to?





Quartz said:


> ((equationgirl))
> 
> I think you should go back to the doctor anyway. Get them to help you stop it getting worse. As they say, an ounce of prevention is worth a ton of cure. Or is that grams and tonnes these days?


Well, everything settled back down to normal by Sunday, so no trip to the GP required. Think I'd impinged the nerve slightly and over Friday/Saturday with lots of rest my spine became much looser and the nerve had the pressure relived. All good.

There was a talk by the CEO today. It turned out to be longer than last year's, and the hotel had bought lots of new chairs for events which were the most uncomfortable and unsupportive I'd ever sat in. After 2 hours, I was in agony. Even people without back trouble were complaining about these chairs. And people do insist on asking questions that are best left to a non-public situation. We got feedback surveys via email and mine went straight back with an overall 'good but do something about the chairs'.

Plus I couldn't read part of the presentation because of my red/black colour blindness - email sent to the communications head about that as well.

People just don't think about disabilities and how a presentation might need to be adjusted - make it available in audio and video, don't use colour combinations contra-indicated for colour blindness, give a short break to allow people to move around, that sort of thing. Nothing major or costly, just small things to make life easier for everybody.

I just know I'm going to be suffering tomorrow...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 4, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Well, everything settled back down to normal by Sunday, so no trip to the GP required. Think I'd impinged the nerve slightly and over Friday/Saturday with lots of rest my spine became much looser and the nerve had the pressure relived. All good.
> 
> There was a talk by the CEO today. It turned out to be longer than last year's, and the hotel had bought lots of new chairs for events which were the most uncomfortable and unsupportive I'd ever sat in. After 2 hours, I was in agony. Even people without back trouble were complaining about these chairs. And people do insist on asking questions that are best left to a non-public situation. We got feedback surveys via email and mine went straight back with an overall 'good but do something about the chairs'.
> 
> ...


 

Well at least you've let the hotel know, but late for you though 

Not sure what to say about the presentation, bit slack of them if they know about your colour blindness


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well at least you've let the hotel know, but late for you though
> 
> Not sure what to say about the presentation, bit slack of them if they know about your colour blindness


The colour blindness gets treated mainly with disbelief and as a joke. It's annoying more than bothersome - never have I worked for a company that likes grading things with traffic light systems (green - good, amber - neutral, red - bad & various variants thereof) so much.

People just don't think. If it doesn't affect them, it's not on their radar.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> The colour blindness gets treated mainly with disbelief and as a joke. It's annoying more than bothersome - never have I worked for a company that likes grading things with traffic light systems (green - good, amber - neutral, red - bad & various variants thereof) so much.
> 
> People just don't think. If it doesn't affect them, it's not on their radar.


 
Who does the presentations, a secretary?  Could you not have a word with her?


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 5, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Who does the presentations, a secretary? Could you not have a word with her?


Everybody writes their own, across different departments, so even if I ask people, they tend to forget and I've got bigger things to think about than continually reminding my colleagues to use white text on a red background.


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## Quartz (Dec 5, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Everybody writes their own, across different departments, so even if I ask people, they tend to forget and I've got bigger things to think about than continually reminding my colleagues to use white text on a red background.


 
You mean they're not using the corporate style? Egads!


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## Quartz (Dec 5, 2012)

With regards to your back issues, have you considered seeing an osteopath?


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## equationgirl (Dec 5, 2012)

Quartz said:


> You mean they're not using the corporate style? Egads!


They do, mostly, just not these traffic light things.

I was pleasantly surprised though, the comms head wrote and apologised, thanked me for bringing it to his attention and sent me a version that I could read 

I've not gone to see an osteopath because my back problem is a combination of arthritis in several vertebrae and bone growth where it shouldn't be AND not where it should be, overlaid with nerves that are basically damaged and misfiring, and consequently it isn't low back pain which has been demonstrated to benefit well from osteopathy. Other conditions don't seem to benefit as much if at all.

Thank you for thinking of me though


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## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2012)

*bump*

From ash's thread - updated descriptors for ESA snuck through by coalition:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3096/pdfs/uksi_20123096_en.pdf


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> *bump*
> 
> From ash's thread - updated descriptors for ESA snuck through by coalition:
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2012/3096/pdfs/uksi_20123096_en.pdf


 
Refuse to read it and be further depressed 

Anyway, it doesn't matter 'cos WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE TOMORROW!


except rich people


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## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Refuse to read it and be further depressed
> 
> Anyway, it doesn't matter 'cos WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE TOMORROW!
> 
> ...


I pasted the info here in case we needed it, but having skimmed some of it I really need to look at the current descriptors and play spot-the-difference. I'm off from tomorrow so I'll add it my list of things to do over the break, if I don't die in the apocalypse.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> I pasted the info here in case we needed it, but having skimmed some of it I really need to look at the current descriptors and play spot-the-difference. I'm off from tomorrow so I'll add it my list of things to do over the break, if I don't die in the apocalypse.


 
Maybe you should nominate a deputy in case you die

I'll be busy btw


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 20, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe you should nominate a deputy in case you die
> 
> I'll be busy btw


I nominate VP 

Unless he's apocalypse-fodder too, obviously


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 20, 2012)

I nominate Greebo.  If they do it together, it'll be done in half the time


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## Greebo (Dec 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I nominate Greebo. If they do it together, it'll be done in half the time


Pfft! You're forgetting a few things: Everything takes longer with M.E.; this isn't the best time of year to ask me to do anything (even with plenty of notice); and by the time I've used my time & energy to fill in for what VP isn't up to doing I haven't got much left, not even for my own use. 

May I also point out that it's Yule tomorrow and I've got a main shop to get done; the day after that, I'm doing  a present drop across London; and the day after that I'll be recovering.  Anything but the most essential stuff can wait.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 21, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Pfft! You're forgetting a few things: Everything takes longer with M.E.; this isn't the best time of year to ask me to do anything (even with plenty of notice); and by the time I've used my time & energy to fill in for what VP isn't up to doing I haven't got much left, not even for my own use.


 
That's alright.  We're not in a rush


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## equationgirl (Dec 21, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Pfft! You're forgetting a few things: Everything takes longer with M.E.; this isn't the best time of year to ask me to do anything (even with plenty of notice); and by the time I've used my time & energy to fill in for what VP isn't up to doing I haven't got much left, not even for my own use.


We know - you're only nominated to back up VP if I'm taken out by the Mayan Apocalypse and you both aren't (but I'm led to believe an apocalypse is pretty all-inclusive, so you won't have to do it).


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## Greebo (Dec 21, 2012)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That's alright. We're not in a rush


VP might, just might, get it done some time before 2014. By which time it'll probably be out of date.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 21, 2012)

Greebo said:


> VP might, just might, get it done some time before 2014. By which time it'll probably be out of date.


 
That's alright, we'll be able to compare the previous versions with the 2014 one


----------



## belboid (Dec 21, 2012)

My mate had an interview a few months back, following which he was found capable of work, which was a bit surprising. When he read the doctors report of their meeting, he discovered that said doc had completely and utterly lied about what he (my mate) had actually said. So, 'I can sometimes walk as far as the local shop, but cant get around it since they changed the layout inside' became 'Can walk to the shop.'

Fortunately my mate had discreetly recorded the meeting, as he feared the doc would bend the truth, altho not to the extent he actually did. So he goes along to an initial appeal and goes to play the recording, but is then told he cant do so, as he hadn't got the docs permission to record, and so the recording - despite showing clearly that the doc had fabricated his notes - cannot be used.  He can,apparently, use it for social and domestic purposes, which is nice.

Anyone think of a way he can still sneak the recoding into an appeal? Or the facts contained therein?  Cos otherwise its just his word against the docs, of course.


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## toggle (Dec 21, 2012)

who said he wasn't allowed to use the recording?


and the tribunal will be less interested in what ahppened at the interview than actually asessing his medical conditions and abilities agains the criteria.


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## belboid (Dec 21, 2012)

Ian Duncan Smith personally, apparently. 

I don't quite understand how that works/doesn't work, but he was told very insistently that he would be prosecuted if he attempted to do so


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## toggle (Dec 21, 2012)

belboid said:


> Ian Duncan Smith personally, apparently.
> 
> I don't quite understand how that works/doesn't work, but he was told very insistently that he would be prosecuted if he attempted to do so


 
the last thing i saw was posted on one of the threads. one of 'benefit anf work's lawyers said it was legal as long as they provided transcripts to the tribunal in advance, with the other evidence they wanted to use.

the only people whose decision it can be, is the tribunal service itself. the gvt/dwp is one of the parties to proceedings in this issue. they don't get to tell the other party what to do.


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## Bakunin (Dec 21, 2012)

toggle said:


> the last thing i saw was posted on one of the threads. one of 'benefit anf work's lawyers said it was legal as long as they provided transcripts to the tribunal in advance, with the other evidence they wanted to use.
> 
> the only people whose decision it can be, is the tribunal service itself. the gvt/dwp is one of the parties to proceedings in this issue. they don't get to tell the other party what to do.


 
True, if memory serves it's down to the tribunal judge to decide what evidence they wish to hear based on their interpretation of relevent law. On a side note, if he can prove that his actual physical and mental condition differs vastly from the report filed by the assessor (the DWP decision makers are supposed to act on what's in the assessment itself), then that's pretty much all the tribunal will need to know.


----------



## Frumious B. (Dec 21, 2012)

Your mate needs to discuss this with the benefitsandwork lawyer in the forum. This could be the first time this scenario has happened. You need to get expert legal advice on it, then share it with everyone else, for all our sakes.


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## WouldBe (Dec 22, 2012)

belboid said:


> My mate had an interview a few months back, following which he was found capable of work, which was a bit surprising. When he read the doctors report of their meeting, he discovered that said doc had completely and utterly lied about what he (my mate) had actually said. So, 'I can sometimes walk as far as the local shop, but cant get around it since they changed the layout inside' became 'Can walk to the shop.'
> 
> Fortunately my mate had discreetly recorded the meeting, as he feared the doc would bend the truth, altho not to the extent he actually did. So he goes along to an initial appeal and goes to play the recording, but is then told he cant do so, as he hadn't got the docs permission to record, and so the recording - despite showing clearly that the doc had fabricated his notes - cannot be used. He can,apparently, use it for social and domestic purposes, which is nice.
> 
> Anyone think of a way he can still sneak the recoding into an appeal? Or the facts contained therein? Cos otherwise its just his word against the docs, of course.


 Supply a transcript of the recording and offer them a copy of the recording if they want to verify the transcript.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 22, 2012)

belboid said:


> My mate had an interview a few months back, following which he was found capable of work, which was a bit surprising. When he read the doctors report of their meeting, he discovered that said doc had completely and utterly lied about what he (my mate) had actually said. So, 'I can sometimes walk as far as the local shop, but cant get around it since they changed the layout inside' became 'Can walk to the shop.'
> 
> Fortunately my mate had discreetly recorded the meeting, as he feared the doc would bend the truth, altho not to the extent he actually did. So he goes along to an initial appeal and goes to play the recording, but is then told he cant do so, as he hadn't got the docs permission to record, and so the recording - despite showing clearly that the doc had fabricated his notes - cannot be used. He can,apparently, use it for social and domestic purposes, which is nice.
> 
> Anyone think of a way he can still sneak the recoding into an appeal? Or the facts contained therein? Cos otherwise its just his word against the docs, of course.


 
He's within his rights to transcribe relevant portions and submit them.

Also, check on the law around recordings. I'm fairly sure it's being misrepresented.


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## Firky (Dec 22, 2012)

One of my mate's has been kicked off his benefits by ATOS without even so much as an assessment, I've pointed him to this thread so if anyone could help him or point him to places of help, I'd be grateful.

Wonderful news to get, 2 days before christmas, eh?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Dec 22, 2012)

firky said:


> One of my mate's has been kicked off his benefits by ATOS without even so much as an assessment, I've pointed him to this thread so if anyone could help him or point him to places of help, I'd be grateful.
> 
> Wonderful news to get, 2 days before christmas, eh?


----------



## Jackobi (Dec 22, 2012)

firky said:


> One of my mate's has been kicked off his benefits by ATOS without even so much as an assessment, I've pointed him to this thread so if anyone could help him or point him to places of help, I'd be grateful.


 
His course of action depends on the reason why ESA was stopped.


----------



## toggle (Dec 23, 2012)

firky said:


> One of my mate's has been kicked off his benefits by ATOS without even so much as an assessment, I've pointed him to this thread so if anyone could help him or point him to places of help, I'd be grateful.
> 
> Wonderful news to get, 2 days before christmas, eh?


 
fffs.


ok, lets start with why. then we can help.


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## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2012)

Is he appealing, firky?


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## Firky (Dec 23, 2012)

I don't know, I've told him to come here and he's registered. I don't really want to say anything as it is not my place to


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## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't know, I've told him to come here and he's registered. I don't really want to say anything as it is not my place to


No worries, so long as he knows we're here to help.


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## Greebo (Dec 23, 2012)

firky said:


> I don't know, I've told him to come here and he's registered. I don't really want to say anything as it is not my place to





equationgirl said:


> No worries, so long as he knows we're here to help.


There's the rub, this is a big place when you're new to it.  @firky, could you PM your friend and tell him which thread he needs to come to?


----------



## Firky (Dec 23, 2012)

I have done all that, he's just busy with Christmas and what not and cobbling together a computer he's built for his daughter's Christmas present.


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## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2012)

Well, it's not like the thread will have moved....


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 24, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Is he appealing, firky?


 

I've heard he's very appealing.




Sorry.


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## laptop (Jan 1, 2013)

If you accompany someone to an ATOS interview, do you have to produce ID, give an address, and stuff?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 1, 2013)

laptop said:


> If you accompany someone to an ATOS interview, do you have to produce ID, give an address, and stuff?


Not to my knowledge. You might get asked for your name.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 1, 2013)

It was the 22nd of November when ATOS last got in touch with me about my supposedly forthcoming medical assessment and since then I've still heard nothing whatsoever. I'm beginning to wonder whether or not they'll actually re-assess me at all. Is this the fact that PIP has been put back until 2015 or have they figured out that I'm too much of a pain in the arse for them to dick around with?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 1, 2013)

I bumped into an old friend last night who told me his sister is now off benefits completely after she was declared fit for work.  She has spondylosis and hasn't worked for years.

Another of my friends rang me.  She's been told she must attend an assessment.  She's had breast cancer and has spent years having reconstructions that kept going wrong.  Now also has a pacemaker.  On latest CT have discovered something on her kidneys and now she's awaiting a PETT scan (can't have MRI because of pacemaker) to investigate more lesions found elsewhere.  She's told them she has no intention of going and if she loses her money, she loses it.  Said she's not up for fighting with them.


----------



## Libertad (Jan 1, 2013)




----------



## Greebo (Jan 1, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I bumped into an old friend last night who told me his sister is now off benefits completely after she was declared fit for work. She has spondylosis and hasn't worked for years.<snip>


Jesus wept.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I bumped into an old friend last night who told me his sister is now off benefits completely after she was declared fit for work. She has spondylosis and hasn't worked for years.
> 
> Another of my friends rang me. She's been told she must attend an assessment. She's had breast cancer and has spent years having reconstructions that kept going wrong. Now also has a pacemaker. On latest CT have discovered something on her kidneys and now she's awaiting a PETT scan (can't have MRI because of pacemaker) to investigate more lesions found elsewhere. She's told them she has no intention of going and if she loses her money, she loses it. Said she's not up for fighting with them.


So sorry to hear that Minnie, I hope she is ok.


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 2, 2013)

laptop said:


> If you accompany someone to an ATOS interview, do you have to produce ID, give an address, and stuff?


 No or at least my sister didn't when she acompanied me.


----------



## Quartz (Jan 2, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I bumped into an old friend last night who told me his sister is now off benefits completely after she was declared fit for work. She has spondylosis and hasn't worked for years.


 
How on earth do they expect her to work with that? Telepathically?



> Another of my friends rang me. She's been told she must attend an assessment. She's had breast cancer and has spent years having reconstructions that kept going wrong. Now also has a pacemaker. On latest CT have discovered something on her kidneys and now she's awaiting a PETT scan (can't have MRI because of pacemaker) to investigate more lesions found elsewhere. She's told them she has no intention of going and if she loses her money, she loses it. Said she's not up for fighting with them.


 
Bad move IMO. You can't let the buggers win. Perhaps she could request a home assessment? Or ask that an assessment should wait until after the PETT scan?


----------



## yardbird (Jan 2, 2013)

firky said:


> One of my mate's has been kicked off his benefits by ATOS without even so much as an assessment, I've pointed him to this thread so if anyone could help him or point him to places of help, I'd be grateful.
> 
> Wonderful news to get, 2 days before christmas, eh?


I've just seen this, that's just awful! 
The problem will be that he did, unfortunately, complete an ESA50 without knowing the points system , so didn't get as far as an assessment.


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 2, 2013)

I've just got back from a wrag interview thing at the jobcentre. 

I didn't realise when the year of contributions run out you have to chase to be income assessed - the starting assumption is that you don't need the money.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I've just got back from a wrag interview thing at the jobcentre.
> 
> I didn't realise when the year of contributions run out you have to chase to be income assessed - the starting assumption is that you don't need the money.


Yes - that's the shitty thing, they don't automatically move you over, they assume you don't need the money.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 2, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I've just got back from a wrag interview thing at the jobcentre.
> 
> I didn't realise when the year of contributions run out you have to chase to be income assessed - the starting assumption is that you don't need the money.


 
That's ridiculous.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 2, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Bad move IMO. You can't let the buggers win. Perhaps she could request a home assessment? Or ask that an assessment should wait until after the PETT scan?


 
Oh I know that, and I think she's said she'll only have a home assessment.  She had breast cancer over 5 years ago and has since had nearly 20 breast operations plus a pacemaker fitted.  She just can't be arsed to fight any more, and I don't think anyone has said she can't have a home visit, I just think she can't be dealing with anyone until she has latest results.  She's in bits at the moment worried the cancer's come back and spread


----------



## laptop (Jan 2, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> No or at least my sister didn't when she acompanied me.


 
Thanks both...


----------



## Quartz (Jan 2, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh I know that, and I think she's said she'll only have a home assessment. She had breast cancer over 5 years ago and has since had nearly 20 breast operations plus a pacemaker fitted. She just can't be arsed to fight any more, and I don't think anyone has said she can't have a home visit, I just think she can't be dealing with anyone until she has latest results. She's in bits at the moment worried the cancer's come back and spread


 
Oh dear. My parents' neighbour has recurrent breast cancer so I have an inkling of what your friend is going through.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2013)

laptop said:


> Thanks both...


No worries, best of luck.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 2, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh I know that, and I think she's said she'll only have a home assessment. She had breast cancer over 5 years ago and has since had nearly 20 breast operations plus a pacemaker fitted. She just can't be arsed to fight any more, and I don't think anyone has said she can't have a home visit, I just think she can't be dealing with anyone until she has latest results. She's in bits at the moment worried the cancer's come back and spread


I hope the results are good. I understand that she only has so much fight in here at the moment - and I think this is what the people behind the benefits system fail to understand. People on benefits aren't living a life of luxury, they're struggling to get through the day because of health issues and not having to worry about losing their homes or paying the bills can have a huge impact of their illness and recovery. Give them more stress and it will undoubtedly kill some of them


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 2, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I hope the results are good. I understand that she only has so much fight in here at the moment - and I think this is what the people behind the benefits system fail to understand. People on benefits aren't living a life of luxury, they're struggling to get through the day because of health issues and not having to worry about losing their homes or paying the bills can have a huge impact of their illness and recovery. Give them more stress and it will undoubtedly kill some of them


 
I think if the results are good, she'll pick up.  She's just (understandably) in bits at the moment


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 2, 2013)

Oh jeez minnie.. Poor woman.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 2, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Oh jeez minnie.. Poor woman.


 
Fingers crossed for some good news eh.

2013 can fuck off and it's barely started


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 2, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I hope the results are good. I understand that she only has so much fight in here at the moment - and I think this is what the people behind the benefits system fail to understand. People on benefits aren't living a life of luxury, they're struggling to get through the day because of health issues and not having to worry about losing their homes or paying the bills can have a huge impact of their illness and recovery. Give them more stress and it will undoubtedly kill some of them


 
I think they do understand and having people not bother to claim coz it's all such a monumental and degrading hassle is the desired outcome. And if some people end up dead then so be it - I really do think that's the gig.


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## Bakunin (Jan 3, 2013)

ATOS' Chief Executive, yesterday...


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 5, 2013)

A friend (bi-polar and assorted stuff including depression that certainly isn't helped by the crap he gets from the benefits system) has an ATOS assessment thingy for continued ESA later this week



I've offered to get him there (partly, to make damn sure he does get up and get there, and also think it may be a bit in his favour if he says he needed someone else to make sure he got there)

We're considering whether I should go in with him as a witness / observer - from this thread, I gather that's OK (Is this still the case?)  and do we need to tell them in advance?

And anyone know what a witness is allowed to do?  Am I allowed to take notes?  Am I allowed to say anything?  (I'd rather not, but on some occasions he's a bit British about things and might not tell them stuff they ought to know, there's also a risk he'll lose his temper with the alleged 'health care' person...)


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> A friend (bi-polar and assorted stuff including depression that certainly isn't helped by the crap he gets from the benefits system) has an ATOS assessment thingy for continued ESA later this week
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Being able to get to the assessment alone has been used against claimants, so your being there can only be a good thing. You don't need to tell them in advance. Nor do you need to say anything - The assessment is between your friend and the assessor. Saying that though, I had my sis with me at mine & one of the things the ATOS "professional" marked me down for was that she "didn't offer any supporting evidence" - Which is bollocks, she was only there to hold my hand and he didn't ask her anything.

Not sure about taking notes, I'm sure someone a bit more clued up will be along shortly though.
Fingers crossed for your pal though.

E2a there's nothing to stop you from prompting your friend if you feel he's not mentioning things that he should be mentioning.


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## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2013)

@Puddy_Tat: Taking notes is generally viewed as fine from this side of the assessment, and in any case essential for those with any memory issues. There have been issues with notes being presented as evidence at tribunal appeals but recently that seems to have subsided if you present a transcript of the assessment.

It's worth trying to get the name of the assessor if possible but Atos seems to have issued some edict forbidding assessors to give their name and qualifications. 

You may find the following link helpful in terms of how his disability may be viewed by the DWP/Atos:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...al-conditions/bipolar/prognosis-and-duration/

I agree with what Frances has says about getting to the assessment alone, ditto dressing properly and presenting a well-groomed appearance. Used against the claimant by Atos, invariably.

Something to note - Atos have shown the assessors do not seem to grasp that those with mental health disorders have consequent disability. They seem to be of the opinion that if there is no physical disability, there is no problem full stop. Watch out for them concentrating on the purely physical aspects of your friend's disability.


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## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2013)

@Puddy_Tat: make sure you or he have a list of all the meds he is on.

Out of interest, who filled out the form for him?

Also, don't be surprised if the assessor seems to be following a script or concentrating on the computer more than your friend. They are making sure they can complete the report they need to produce.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 5, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> one of the things the ATOS "professional" marked me down for was that she "didn't offer any supporting evidence" - Which is bollocks, she was only there to hold my hand and he didn't ask her anything.


 
 at ATOS



equationgirl said:


> It's worth trying to get the name of the assessor if possible but Atos seems to have issued some edict forbidding assessors to give their name and qualifications.


 
 again.

presumably to try and stop people reporting them to the GMC / RCN or whoever...



equationgirl said:


> You may find the following link helpful in terms of how his disability may be viewed by the DWP/Atos:
> 
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...al-conditions/bipolar/prognosis-and-duration/


 
Thanks. Will have a read of this.

From what friend has said (and to be honest, it's not always all that clear what is going on) he's officially signed off with anxiety and depression - the bi-polar is a relatively recent diagnosis. I think on the one hand he's trying not to get a "not fit for work ever again - sod off and rot" sort of label, but I'm not sure that's doing him favours at the moment.

He's had one (seemingly serious) suicide attempt in the last year, and a couple of occasions he's threatened to, he got the push from his last job because he lost his temper (verbally but fairly comprehensively) with a colleague, and so on...

One reason I want to go is so that I can intervene if it gets to the stage where he tells the assessor to fuck off / walks out.

I certainly need to sort out with him just what grounds he's going on. He's got a few (each one relatively minor) health issues - my inclination would be to throw the bloody lot at them.



equationgirl said:


> Atos have shown the assessors do not seem to grasp that those with mental health disorders have consequent disability. They seem to be of the opinion that if there is no physical disability, there is no problem full stop. Watch out for them concentrating on the purely physical aspects of your friend's disability.


 
 



equationgirl said:


> @Puddy_Tat: make sure you or he have a list of all the meds he is on.


 
will do.



equationgirl said:


> Out of interest, who filled out the form for him?


 
don't know - I did offer to assist, but he didn't take me up on that (I live about a 40 minute drive away) - I'll see if he kept a copy


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## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2013)

@Puddy_Tat

Have a look at the DWP link I posted up. It looks at stability as a measure of disability, which for a condition such a bipolar disorder is more useful than a lot of the 'can you carry a box Y metres' stuff they can use. Now the main goal for Atos is to say he's fit for work. Make sure he tells that about the suicide attempts and suicuidal thoughts in the assessment, as that should indicate that he's not ready to work at the moment.

And don't trust them, however nice they seem. They're not there to help your friend.


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## toggle (Jan 5, 2013)

@bakunin cause he's bipolar and has been through the assessments.

I'm wondering how to fit in the difficulties in controling his temper into this. cause that could be considered associated with bipolar, in that he has difficulties controling the full range of his emotions. at the very lest it is 'disinhibited behavior', but there could be more.


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## Bakunin (Jan 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> he got the push from his last job because he lost his temper (verbally but fairly comprehensively) with a colleague, and so on...


 
http://www.esahelp.co.uk/mental-assessment.php


*Here's the ATOS assessment criteria for workplace interaction with colleagues:*



*20. Propriety of behaviour with other people.*


Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited or bizarre behaviour, being either:
(i) sufficient to cause disruption to others on a daily basis: or
(ii) of such severity that although occurring less frequently than on a daily basis, no reasonable person would be expected to tolerate them. *15 Points*
Has a completely disproportionate reaction to minor events or to criticism to the extent that the claimant has an extreme violent outburst leading to threatening behaviour or actual physical violence. *15 Points*
Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited or bizarre behaviour, sufficient in severity and frequency to cause disruption for the majority of the time. *9 Points*
Has a strongly disproportionate reaction to minor events or to criticism, to the extent that the claimant cannot manage overall day to day life when such events or criticism occur. *9 Points*
Has unpredictable outbursts of aggressive, disinhibited or bizarre behaviour sufficient to cause frequent disruption. *6 Points*
Frequently demonstrates a moderately disproportionate reaction to minor events or to criticism but not to such an extent that the claimant cannot manage overall day to day life when such events or criticism occur. *6 Points*
None of the above apply. *0 Points*
*Hope this might help.*


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 5, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> And don't trust them, however nice they seem. They're not there to help your friend.


 
Thanks - we know that bit already, but the rest is good



toggle said:


> @bakunin cause he's bipolar and has been through the assessments.
> 
> I'm wondering how to fit in the difficulties in controling his temper into this. cause that could be considered associated with bipolar, in that he has difficulties controling the full range of his emotions. at the very lest it is 'disinhibited behavior', but there could be more.


 


Bakunin said:


> http://www.esahelp.co.uk/mental-assessment.php
> 
> Here's the ATOS assessment criteria for workplace interaction with colleagues:
> 
> ...


 
thanks - that sounds the kind of thing I was after.


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## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Thanks - we know that bit already, but the rest is good
> 
> thanks - that sounds the kind of thing I was after.


Best of luck for your friend, Puddy_Tat.


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## existentialist (Jan 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> A friend (bi-polar and assorted stuff including depression that certainly isn't helped by the crap he gets from the benefits system) has an ATOS assessment thingy for continued ESA later this week
> 
> 
> 
> ...


From what I gather, the trick is to covertly record the session, but take notes (or pretend to). Then you can transcribe your recording, which makes it automatically admissible at tribunal. Maybe if your mate is in on this, it might help him behave well enough for the benefit of the recording, which will probably benefit him in the long run.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 6, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Best of luck for your friend, Puddy_Tat.


 
thanks



existentialist said:


> From what I gather, the trick is to covertly record the session, but take notes (or pretend to). Then you can transcribe your recording, which makes it automatically admissible at tribunal. Maybe if your mate is in on this, it might help him behave well enough for the benefit of the recording, which will probably benefit him in the long run.


 
I'll think about that - I've got an analogue mini cassette thingy - don't know how good it would be from a coat pocket.  I'll have a play with it tomorrow. 

I thought that you couldn't use covert recording in evidence?  Or do you just mean that my 'contemporaneous notes' will be better?

Will we be in loads of trouble if we get found out, though?


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## equationgirl (Jan 6, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Atos would likely stop the session if they thought you were covertly recording. Contemporaneous notes are usually ok from what I've seen.

Covert recording normally gets a better reception if you've asked for a session to be recorded, as is every claimant's right, and been fobbed off or told no equipment is available. Again, if there's any type of short-term memory issue recording could be regarded as necessary.


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## Celt (Jan 6, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I've just got back from a wrag interview thing at the jobcentre.
> 
> I didn't realise when the year of contributions run out you have to chase to be income assessed - the starting assumption is that you don't need the money.


 
I am aware that my WRAG only lasts 365 days but have no idea what that means practically, I've a feeling its related to this.


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## existentialist (Jan 6, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:
			
		

> thanks
> 
> I'll think about that - I've got an analogue mini cassette thingy - don't know how good it would be from a coat pocket.  I'll have a play with it tomorrow.
> 
> ...



I think the idea is not to get found out! But yes, you don't disclose the existence of the recording, you use it to generate "contemporaneous" notes. But I think the idea of asking for the session to be recorded is an excellent one, as it gives you a little moral high ground when they refuse and if you do get found out for recording.


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## Frankie Jack (Jan 6, 2013)

*Unauthorised recordings*

Atos Healthcare is happy to provide an audio recording of an assessment where customers make a request in advance of their assessment.  We will terminate the assessment if we become aware that an unauthorised recording is taking place.
We believe our staff have the right to work in a safe environment. If any recording is used to intimidate staff or if their personal data is published on-line, this may put their safety at risk.  In these circumstances the DWP will be notified and Atos Healthcare reserves the right to take appropriate action.
Please remember, our healthcare professionals are carrying out Work Capability Assessments using standards and criteria that are laid out in government legislation.  Where a customer has a concern with the policy or design of the assessment rather than the person carrying it out we ask that this should not be targeted at our staff.


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## cesare (Jan 6, 2013)

I've accompanied a friend twice to an ATOS assessment and then to the first level appeal tribunal. 

The first time my friend had an ATOS assessment she went unaccompanied, and was very unhappy with the assessor and how the assessment was carried out. She failed the assessment despite having a progressive condition + 

We appealed ie asked them to review the decision. They rejected this and put her onto ESA which also needed an assessment. We appealed the IB review decision to the first level tribunal.

The next ATOS assessment we tried to do things overtly eg recording and taking photographs of the room where the assessment was held. The ATOS assessor went into meltdown and refused to carry on. She'd also gone into meltdown with the previous assessment she'd done. She was also very (unusually, I felt) threatened but at the same time subservient (lols) when I produced a business card to cut short time on introductions etc.

Once we'd been thrown out, I asked the receptionist for details of the complaints procedure which took ages for him to find. At the same time we made it clear that we weren't blaming him, he was just doing his job, ultra polite etc. He was very helpful by way of anecdotal information which wasn't job-costing stuff but helped reassure and made us feel a bit better. I made the point that any delay in the process was the result of how the assessor had behaved and nothing to do with my friend.

When the assessment was rearranged I accompanied my friend again. This time we decided to both record covertly whilst I would overtly take contemporaneous notes to supplement. It was all fine. But bear in mind that this was ESA and that she was already in the appeals process for IB. Anyway, long story short she passed the ESA one so we haven't (yet) needed our recordings and my notes.

The IB tribunal came up and we went prepared with all the documentation from my friend's first unsuccessful assessment and our subsequent request to review the decision with additional supporting medical information. The tribunal was very informal - a bit like the way that employment tribunals were *originally* set up, with the emphasis on informality and accessibility. There was a legally qualified judge and a medical person. No sign of the DWP - apparently they never turn up to these things. They asked me who I was but didn't enquire too closely. They asked my friend some questions - medical ones. She could have referred to all the notes because they were there in front of us but she just answered without doing any of that. The room was just a room with a big table and chairs, it didn't look or feel like a court room. They kept checking our understanding and if we wanted to say more. They emphasised that they were entirely separate from the DWP/ATOS process and were entirely objective. Afterwards we waited in the waiting room for a few minutes before being called back in and told that her appeal had had been successful and that the backdated money should arrive within a few weeks but they couldn't enforce that aspect (it did). 

Always get someone to go with you to assessments and never be daunted from appealing. I know I've posted this before but new people join the thread and can't be expected to read every page.


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## toggle (Jan 6, 2013)

i'd definately aggree with your comments on the tribunals. i went with bakunin to his. it is informal, we were all but told they were sick of having to deal with the crap the dwp and atos were throwing their way, and there was a definate feeling that they were looking for ways to find in favour of claimants rather than looking to trip people up so they could refuse.

What they did make clear to us was that they knew all about how shite atos/dwp were, but they weren't there to listen to complaints. they were mainly interted in looking at the eveidence the claimant provided and whether that fit the rules they had to work under. I'd have thought a brief 'my stress related symptoms are worse now than before asessment' is sufficient on that.it isn't the place to describe all the run arround you've had. i'll second being asked who I was, but I wasn't questioned much apart from where I could describe his condition. I'll also say that it was clear to me by about halfway though the hearing what the result was going to be.


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## wtfftw (Jan 6, 2013)

Celt said:


> I am aware that my WRAG only lasts 365 days but have no idea what that means practically, I've a feeling its related to this.


Yeah. I would think so. You get a year of contributions based money and then become income assessed. Except you aren't automatically income assessed - you have to be proactive about getting the form.


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## Firky (Jan 6, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've accompanied a friend twice to an ATOS assessment and then to the first level appeal tribunal.
> 
> Always get someone to go with you to assessments and never be daunted from appealing. I know I've posted this before but new people join the thread and can't be expected to read every page.


 
Just 

Good work, the pair of you.


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## WouldBe (Jan 6, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> And anyone know what a witness is allowed to do? Am I allowed to take notes? Am I allowed to say anything? (I'd rather not, but on some occasions he's a bit British about things and might not tell them stuff they ought to know, there's also a risk he'll lose his temper with the alleged 'health care' person...)


 ATOS tend to ignore anything a witness says.

You can take notes but don't be suprised if the ATOS bod goes ballistic.  They will ask for a copy of your notes.

Definately go in with him. This gains points for supervision.

If he loses his temper he should get extra points for 'anti-social behaviour'. 

Hope it goes OK.


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## yardbird (Jan 6, 2013)

I was due for another assessment, another clear money grabbing exercise by ATOS as I'm 65 in February
With my ESA50 I said that I required a home assessment plus recording, as I have short term memory problems.
This was backed by request that they contact Neurologist, Outreach nurse, Physio and Occupational Therapist.
I gave info about the helper who would be in attendance - my sis in law, a retired GP with masses of letters after her name who would take notes and be there to help if I "lost it"!

I got a "given the circumstances we do not find it necessary" letter


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## existentialist (Jan 6, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> *Unauthorised recordings*
> 
> Atos Healthcare is happy to provide an audio recording of an assessment where customers make a request in advance of their assessment. We will terminate the assessment if we become aware that an unauthorised recording is taking place.


Fair enough...assuming that there is no reason to assume that ATOS are being obstructive when it comes to providing *authorised* recordings.

But...



Frankie Jack said:


> We believe our staff have the right to work in a safe environment. If any recording is used to intimidate staff or if their personal data is published on-line, this may put their safety at risk. In these circumstances the DWP will be notified and Atos Healthcare reserves the right to take appropriate action.


Note the sly elision of making recordings into "intimidate staff" or "publish[ing] online" information. There are many reasons why a recording might be made, and my suspicion is that intimidation or "publishing online" are the tiniest of minorities of uses to which they could be put. And, in any case, I imagine that that kind of behaviour is more than adequately covered by other forms of legislation.

It also begs the question as to why ATOS might be assuming that people would respond so negatively to them - have they accidentally betrayed themselves in their acknowledgement that what they are doing is so unpopular?

I think the vague non-threat of "appropriate action" is interesting - I imagine that, in law, there would be precious little they could do about "unauthorised recordings", so they are forced to resort to generalised - and, I imagine, legally meaningless - threats. The worst of which is that they will report the infraction to the DWP who will, presumably, do what the DWP always does and terminate someone's benefits.



Frankie Jack said:


> Please remember, our healthcare professionals are carrying out Work Capability Assessments using standards and criteria that are laid out in government legislation. Where a customer has a concern with the policy or design of the assessment rather than the person carrying it out we ask that this should not be targeted at our staff.


Nice bit of plausible deniability - "any lies we tell or misrepresentations we make are part of DWP policy - take it up with them". While, of course, the DWP is busy saying "we do not conduct the assessments, we only make decisions on the basis of their recommendations". Where's the accountability?


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## Ganji (Jan 6, 2013)

Ello folks.
A mate of mine (Firky) suggested i have a nose around ere as Atos are in the process of trying to send me to work without even assessing me. I've had Crohn's disease pretty bad since i was 13(38 now) which has pretty much left me stuck in the house due to all the other stuff that come's with Crohns ike arthritis, no sleep, not eating and constant pain amongst other things. Last time i was assessed they did a home visit and wrote me off for good. So how they think i'm fit now when i'm a hell of a lot worse than i was i don't know. At the time i got the forms from atos i had just moved doctors so could'nt send any evidence with the forms. I did include 5 pages of notes about my condition's which they just ignored obviously and put me in the back to work group which i am supposed to start attending by the 26th of this month. I am going to apeal the decision but need to get as much info as possible to help with my apeal. 
So any help is very much apreciated.
Thanks in advance folks


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 6, 2013)

Hello Firky's mate 

Hope you're not as much trouble as he is?


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 6, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Fair enough...assuming that there is no reason to assume that ATOS are being obstructive when it comes to providing *authorised* recordings.
> 
> But...
> 
> ...


 
W/R/T "appropriate action" from what I recall, as long as you don't publish the recording publicly/make it publicly-available, there's no offence.


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## Bakunin (Jan 6, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I got a "given the circumstances we do not find it necessary" letter


 
I haven't even had that yet and it's been six weeks since I last heard anything from ATOS about being assessed.


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## yardbird (Jan 6, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I haven't even had that yet and it's been six weeks since I last heard anything from ATOS about being assessed.


That's quite normal, I used to phone them every week to check what the score was.
They do not, however, operate to normal human standards.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 6, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I haven't even had that yet and it's been six weeks since I last heard anything from ATOS about being assessed.


 
It took me three months between sending form in and hearing anything from them


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 6, 2013)

thanks.

I don't think the ancient mini cassette thingy I have is going to be any good for covert recordings, and looking at the links, it's probably a bit late now to request that the session is recorded.

I'm fairly experienced at taking notes (I don't do shorthand - suppose I could pretend to worry them )

Presume this is a bit like going to court as a witness - the more 'respectable' I look the better?  (me not friend that is)

and hello @ganji


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## equationgirl (Jan 6, 2013)

@ganji

Welcome - nice to see you on urban 

Did you keep a copy of what you sent back to Atos? Also, did you get a copy of the reason(s) why you were put into the group?


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## Firky (Jan 6, 2013)

Ganji said:


> Ello folks.
> A mate of mine (Firky) suggested i have a nose around ere as Atos are in the process of trying to send me to work without even assessing me. I've had Crohn's disease pretty bad since i was 13(38 now) which has pretty much left me stuck in the house due to all the other stuff that come's with Crohns ike arthritis, no sleep, not eating and constant pain amongst other things. Last time i was assessed they did a home visit and wrote me off for good. So how they think i'm fit now when i'm a hell of a lot worse than i was i don't know. At the time i got the forms from atos i had just moved doctors so could'nt send any evidence with the forms. I did include 5 pages of notes about my condition's which they just ignored obviously and put me in the back to work group which i am supposed to start attending by the 26th of this month. I am going to apeal the decision but need to get as much info as possible to help with my apeal.
> So any help is very much apreciated.
> Thanks in advance folks


 
Geeza


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 6, 2013)

Ganji said:


> Ello folks.
> A mate of mine (Firky) suggested i have a nose around ere as Atos are in the process of trying to send me to work without even assessing me. I've had Crohn's disease pretty bad since i was 13(38 now) which has pretty much left me stuck in the house due to all the other stuff that come's with Crohns ike arthritis, no sleep, not eating and constant pain amongst other things. Last time i was assessed they did a home visit and wrote me off for good. So how they think i'm fit now when i'm a hell of a lot worse than i was i don't know. At the time i got the forms from atos i had just moved doctors so could'nt send any evidence with the forms. I did include 5 pages of notes about my condition's which they just ignored obviously and put me in the back to work group which i am supposed to start attending by the 26th of this month. I am going to apeal the decision but need to get as much info as possible to help with my apeal.
> So any help is very much apreciated.
> Thanks in advance folks


 
Do you mean you have been awarded ESA, but you have to attend the monthly work group meetings, ie you're in the WRAG (Work Related Activity Group), rather than the Support Group? - The Support Group's the one where you're accepted as not being fit for *any* work. If that's the case, those meetings are meant to be a piece of piss, a mere monthly formality (though that could change in the future), and realistically, you have to be pretty much just a head in a jar to stand any chance of getting in the Support Group.

That's not to say you shouldn't appeal though, you most definitely should - I can't really give any more in depth advice than that. Hope it goes your way though.


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 7, 2013)

Sent of my GL 24 appeal form today - A bit close to the deadline, but it should get there ontime. What I'm a bit worried about is this though - When I got kicked off the sick, I signed on for JSA - Could the jobcentre use the fact that I've appealed against being kicked off the sick coz the decision that I'm fit for work was wrong as a reason to kick me off JSA ( coz I've told JSA I'm fit for work but I've told the appeal form I'm not) and leave me without any income?


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## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

I haven't got it in me to read the whole thread  but I may be on here a bit from now


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## Greebo (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I haven't got it in me to read the whole thread  but I may be on here a bit from now


Welcome to the thread, sorry you that qualify to be here.


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## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I haven't got it in me to read the whole thread  but I may be on here a bit from now


 
let us know what we can do. that is what we are here for.


Ganji said:


> I am going to apeal the decision but need to get as much info as possible to help with my apeal.
> So any help is very much apreciated.
> Thanks in advance folks


 
get as much supporting medical evidence as possible. make sure you signpost what each problem you have means in terms of the descriptors for the asessment criteria.

get someone to go with you to appeal. preferably a welfare specialist, if not then take a mate, preferably someone who can give a reasonable description of how much your condition fucks up your life. do not go alone.


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## kittyP (Jan 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Welcome to the thread, sorry you that qualify to be here.


 
Cheers and I know 



toggle said:


> let us know what we can do. that is what we are here for.


 
Thank you


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## WouldBe (Jan 8, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> thanks.
> 
> I don't think the ancient mini cassette thingy I have is going to be any good for covert recordings, and looking at the links, it's probably a bit late now to request that the session is recorded.


I wrote to ATOS when they contacted me and said the session would be recorded due to problems with memory. The first doctor assigned to do my assessment chickened out. The second doctor failed to keep an appointment. In my DLA appeal info ATOS say that the second doctor probably wouldn't have agreed to being recorded either.


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## Greebo (Jan 8, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I<snip> In my DLA appeal info ATOS say that the second doctor probably wouldn't have agreed to being recorded either.


Oh dear, how sad, never mind.   </Windsor Davies>


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## equationgirl (Jan 8, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Sent of my GL 24 appeal form today - A bit close to the deadline, but it should get there ontime. What I'm a bit worried about is this though - When I got kicked off the sick, I signed on for JSA - Could the jobcentre use the fact that I've appealed against being kicked off the sick coz the decision that I'm fit for work was wrong as a reason to kick me off JSA ( coz I've told JSA I'm fit for work but I've told the appeal form I'm not) and leave me without any income?


Hmmm. Tricky one. Perhaps, if asked, you could say that you were advised to sign on for JSA and leave it at that.


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## equationgirl (Jan 8, 2013)

@kittyP: sorry that you're here, but remember you're not alone. 

This thread is here to help, and if you are able to read part of it, you will see that there is real support on this thread, no matter what your questions or worries and that there have been several success stories.

Whatever we can do to help you, we will


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## Quartz (Jan 8, 2013)

All assessments should be recorded.


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## equationgirl (Jan 8, 2013)

Quartz said:


> All assessments should be recorded.


All assessments should be automatically recorded by a third party independent company, payment by results with deductions for failure to record and recordings given to claimants at the end of the assessment.


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## yardbird (Jan 9, 2013)

As far as the recording situation is concerned - it always was nuts.
In the early days it was even more insane with duplicate machines that (they said) required an engineer to calibrate (!!?).
Lies and bollox.
Then we are told that we have the right to have a recording (this is when they got 12 machines for 42 offices)
Then we are told that we have the right _if _they can get a working machine to your assessment.
How can you have a right qualified?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2013)

yardbird said:


> As far as the recording situation is concerned - it always was nuts.
> In the early days it was even more insane with duplicate machines that (they said) required an engineer to calibrate (!!?).
> Lies and bollox.
> Then we are told that we have the right to have a recording (this is when they got 12 machines for 42 offices)
> ...


 
You can't, but if they repeat the formula often enough, and with a suitable degree of authority, *some* people WILL take it as truth, and forego their right.
Usually the same people who believe that the entire process is neutral, right up until they get shat on.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

yardbird said:


> As far as the recording situation is concerned - it always was nuts.
> In the early days it was even more insane with duplicate machines that (they said) required an engineer to calibrate (!!?).
> Lies and bollox.
> Then we are told that we have the right to have a recording (this is when they got 12 machines for 42 offices)
> ...


 
I thought it was 12 machines for 141/142 offices?


----------



## yardbird (Jan 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I thought it was 12 machines for 141/142 offices?


Indeed, missed a hundred off - 
but I was using the ATOS point-counting technique and software designed by them.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 9, 2013)

friend's assessment seemed to go OK this morning - we had decided not to be too unco-operative (so I didn't take written notes)

slightly difficult, as he couldn't remember what he'd put on his form (some months ago) and hadn't taken a copy

the 'health professional' seemed fair and reasonable, so she's either new or good at pretending.

don't know quite how it will go - he is better on most fronts than he was 6 months ago, and did say so (which may have been a tactical error)

I think he's going to get a few 6 point hits on different categories, rather than one 15 point hit.  Could well come down to interpretation.

And there's nothing in the assessment about anxiety / depression / fatigue.

Thanks to all for the advice so far.  I may be back in a few weeks to discuss appeals...


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 9, 2013)

Ganji said:


> Ello folks.
> A mate of mine (Firky) suggested i have a nose around ere as Atos are in the process of trying to send me to work without even assessing me. I've had Crohn's disease pretty bad since i was 13(38 now) which has pretty much left me stuck in the house due to all the other stuff that come's with Crohns ike arthritis, no sleep, not eating and constant pain amongst other things. Last time i was assessed they did a home visit and wrote me off for good. So how they think i'm fit now when i'm a hell of a lot worse than i was i don't know. At the time i got the forms from atos i had just moved doctors so could'nt send any evidence with the forms. I did include 5 pages of notes about my condition's which they just ignored obviously and put me in the back to work group which i am supposed to start attending by the 26th of this month. I am going to apeal the decision but need to get as much info as possible to help with my apeal.
> So any help is very much apreciated.
> Thanks in advance folks


 
We'll do what we can to help and ignore my occasionally twisted sense of humour as it's just my personal way of coping.

With that in mind, you could always give your Crohns complete freedom to function spectacularly in the middle of your assessment. Might help their usually-chronically- understated assessment notes along a little...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> so she's either new or good at pretending.
> 
> don't know quite how it will go - he is better on most fronts than he was 6 months ago, and did say so (which may have been a tactical error)


 
I'd go with good at pretending (being the pessimist that I am)

Yeah, if he's said he's improved, they'll probably decide he's going to improve further

Fingers crossed though


----------



## Frumious B. (Jan 9, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I wrote to ATOS when they contacted me and said the session would be recorded due to problems with memory. The first doctor assigned to do my assessment chickened out. The second doctor failed to keep an appointment. In my DLA appeal info ATOS say that the second doctor probably wouldn't have agreed to being recorded either.


When was this? Didn't they forbid you from making a recording? That's what they said to me. Has the policy changed?


----------



## yardbird (Jan 9, 2013)

For the home assessment that they chickened out on, I demanded that it was recorded due to my short term memory problems and when they said that they didn't "offer" home recordings I went fucking ballistic!
Not cost effective to pay for a minder for each outside assessment!


----------



## toggle (Jan 9, 2013)

yardbird said:


> For the home assessment that they chickened out on, I demanded that it was recorded due to my short term memory problems and when they said that they didn't "offer" home recordings I went fucking ballistic!
> Not cost effective to pay for a minder for each outside assessment!


 
that's not what they told us. we were told we could have a recorded home asessmnt.


and this hit my facebook from a freind today.



> *"Face book has just asked me 'How are you doing Val' Well this is the reply and if anyone has contacts in the press or in the Government please pass it on!
> Dear Mr Iain Duncan Smith,
> I do hope you are well.
> Today I got 2 letters, The one from your estimed department informed me that since a year had passed since my last IV treatment for cancer I was no longer entitled to contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) from 2nd March 2013. It informed me that the 'benefit' would stop and no more money would be paid. It also informed me that I could if I wanted to apply to carry on receiving this benefit as means tested but that if my 'partner' worked 25 hours or more or we had 16k in assets/savings I was ineligible for further help. It also informed me they would keep paying my NI contributions for the moment but if once I had been assessed (by ATOS) as fit to work they would immediately cease. Of course there was a paragraph warning me that if I did not pay my NI contributions my state pension and any further benefit would be affected. So Mr Duncan-Smith that is £400 per month I have to find...
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

toggle said:


> that's not what they told us. we were told we could have a recorded home asessmnt.
> 
> 
> and this hit my facebook from a freind today.


 
Very polite letter, far too polite for my liking


----------



## toggle (Jan 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Very polite letter, far too polite for my liking


 
but i think she's written it well, because it will appeal to a middle england audience. her story is one that could happen to them. and it's not you and me that need convincing


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 9, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> All assessments should be automatically recorded by a third party independent company, payment by results with deductions for failure to record and recordings given to claimants at the end of the assessment.


 
The whole basis of ALL privatisations is that the private company does not get properly monitored. This is because they have to be able to claim to be more efficient than the public sector AND make a profit. They can only get to do that if they can get away with cheating. So, for instance, the DWP get no confirmation that ATOS assessments have been carried out by a qualified medical practitioner, let alone a name.

A fair system would be great. It's not going to happen because it couldn't be done cheaper than the old system of direct DWP assessments. The government has absolutely no interest in ensuring the system is fair. All they need is to be able to give ATOS and the like the huge wads of cash that were (unspokenly) promised in return for substantial donations to party funds, and create enough fear in the general public mind to increase UNUM's sales of unemployment insurance policies, also as (unspokenly) promised in return for donations.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 9, 2013)

toggle said:


> but i think she's written it well, because it will appeal to a middle england audience. her story is one that could happen to them. and it's not you and me that need convincing


 
Yeah, I realise that.  Maybe some DM readers will read it


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 10, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> When was this? Didn't they forbid you from making a recording? That's what they said to me. Has the policy changed?


 That was last July / August time. They didn't forbid me from making a recording. Anyway it's my house, I'll do what I bloody well like in it.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 10, 2013)

Atos Debate:

http://www.michaelmeacher.info/webl...-the-house-now-fixed-for-thursday-17-january/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

Rutita1 said:


> Atos Debate:
> 
> http://www.michaelmeacher.info/webl...-the-house-now-fixed-for-thursday-17-january/


 
In the main chamber as well.  I wonder how many will bother attending though


----------



## Quartz (Jan 10, 2013)

'As many as 30'. Nice to know how much our lords and masters really care, isn't it?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2013)

Quartz said:


> 'As many as 30'. Nice to know how much our lords and masters really care, isn't it?


I feel truly cared for, wonder if my MP will grace the chamber with her presence?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 10, 2013)

Quartz said:


> 'As many as 30'. Nice to know how much our lords and masters really care, isn't it?


Oh yes, they're paid better than most people and still they can't be bothered to turn up for work.  Talk about a "something for nothing" culture.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

Quartz said:


> 'As many as 30'. Nice to know how much our lords and masters really care, isn't it?


 
Well that's a few more than were present for the child abuse/exploitation debate




but not nearly as many as turned up to debate MPs expenses


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 10, 2013)

Is this a live debate?  Why is it being held so late at night?  Maybe if it was done in the early afternoon more people would turn up.  She says, with some sort of strange hope that some politicians give a shite. But I do wonder if that makes any difference.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Is this a live debate? Why is it being held so late at night? Maybe if it was done in the early afternoon more people would turn up. She says, with some sort of strange hope that some politicians give a shite. But I do wonder if that makes any difference.


 
Is what a live debate? 

If you mean the Child Exploitation one, then that was in November around midday


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Is what a live debate?
> 
> If you mean the Child Exploitation one, then that was in November around midday


 
No, the ATOS debate.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> No, the ATOS debate.


 
Oh 

That starts at 11.00am I think


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh
> 
> That starts at 11.00am I think


 
Ah, I thought it was actually being held this late at night.  Politicians still as shit as ever then, nothing to see here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Ah, I thought it was actually being held this late at night. Politicians still as shit as ever then, nothing to see here.


 

11.00am on Thursday, 17 January


----------



## isolation (Jan 11, 2013)

Hi all, 
Has anyone had experience of the Independent tier of the ATOS complaints procedure ?
I believe it is in 2 parts - in the 'medical' part we had all of our 3 assessments declared not fit for purpose but I believe there is also an admin response ? anyone know how long this takes to come ?
Thanks,
Dee

http://dwpnegligence.wordpress.com


----------



## audiotech (Jan 13, 2013)

'The brutal...system...' A GP's view.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 13, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'The brutal...system...' A GP's view.


Dr Pilkington is a Glasgow-based GP, who has written several articles for the Lancet on the top. Good article to link to, audiotech


----------



## yardbird (Jan 13, 2013)

The brutal...system.
So much info and evidence confirms the wrongness of the ATOS assessment procedure.
The ESA50 'form' is designed to lower the points used to score us.

How distressing if you are not the kind of person who can find their way around a keyboard or even understand some words and sentences. 
In a few weeks I shall be out of their reach as I become an OAP and already THE SYSTEM IS WORKING!!

I received a letter from The Pension Service telling me about the change ESA/Pension, when it would happen and how.
Then I got a phone call saying that I am entitled to more re my problems and that my DLA is untouched.
I think I shall be out of all this.
Let's see.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 14, 2013)

I just heard that for DLA full mobility (which I have) the distance one can walk has changed.
They snuck that in.
All forms asking about things should always be completed as if it is your WORST day.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I just heard that for DLA full mobility (which I have) the distance one can walk has changed.
> They snuck that in.
> All forms asking about things should always be completed as if it is your WORST day.


 
I mentioned somewhere earlier that there's mention it's been changed to 20 meters.  There's going to be loads of people losing a huge chunk of money per week if that's the case


----------



## yardbird (Jan 14, 2013)

Get this:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21006365

Just off out for a short jog - that should get me from the the front door to the car - about 5 metres


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I mentioned somewhere earlier that there's mention it's been changed to 20 meters. There's going to be loads of people losing a huge chunk of money per week if that's the case


 Yeah but you can get DLA if you have severe discomfort. If you get the severe discomfort before you even stand up to walk then that counts as well so your effective walking distance is 0 meters.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Get this:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21006365
> 
> Just off out for a short jog - that should get me from the the front door to the car - about 5 metres


 
Gonna be loads of people losing their Freedom Passes as well as you only get that if you get HRM.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Yeah but you can get DLA if you have severe discomfort. If you get the severe discomfort before you even stand up to walk then that counts as well so your effective walking distance is 0 meters.


 
Not so sure about that.  Isn't it the act of walking creating severe discomfort what counts? 

Himself will definitely lose it, and therefore his Freedom Pass on top of bedroom tax that he'll have to pay


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Yeah but you can get DLA if you have severe discomfort. If you get the severe discomfort before you even stand up to walk then that counts as well so your effective walking distance is 0 meters.


 
Not convinced they interpret it like that though


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not so sure about that. Isn't it the act of walking creating severe discomfort what counts?


One of the links posted to earlier (benefits and work forum?) gives a list of case rulings. IIRC severe discomfort before walking counts.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> One of the links posted to earlier (benefits and work forum?) gives a list of case rulings. IIRC severe discomfort before walking counts.


 
Yes, but what I'm saying is, their interpretation of how soon severe discomfort kicks in. If you say you're able to walk 30 metres before stopping, then you're fucked. If you're only in discomfort for the first 30 metres, then even more discomfort after that blah blah blah

It's all going to come down to their interpretation of severe discomfort innit


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's all going to come down to their interpretation of severe discomfort innit


Case law also rules that severe discomfort comes before severe pain. So if you're in severe pain before walking you qualify. 

DWP can change the distance as much as they like they can't change the case law.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Case law also rules that severe discomfort comes before severe pain. So if you're in severe pain before walking you qualify.
> 
> DWP can change the distance as much as they like they can't change the case law.


 
That's besides the point.  It still means thousands more are going to have to go through the stress of the appeals process.

Furthermore, if you've got your ESA ((Support Group) on the basis that you can't mobilise 50m but can 20m, then you're at risk of being chucked out of the Support Group


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

Furthermore



> The government has also left out the phrase “safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a timely manner” from the PIP regulations. This means that if a person can do something just once, or can push through pain to do it, they might not get help and can’t even challenge it at tribunal.


----------



## spirals (Jan 14, 2013)

FFS! they are sneaky wankers


----------



## toggle (Jan 14, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Furthermore


 

ffs.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

What's even more shocking is this



> Government protestations about consultation are a nonsense if it takes no notice of what disabled people and their organisations say. Of the *173 consultation responses *from organisations on the new PIP, only one suggested the qualifying distance for those who have the most difficulty getting around should perhaps be changed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 14, 2013)

Some disappointingly short responses from some who were consulted

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/pip-assessment-response-alzheimers-society-doncaster-and-rotherham.pdf


----------



## teqniq (Jan 14, 2013)

a little bit of good news, from the Co-op's Facebook page:



> Hello everyone, here is an update as promised on our occupational healthcare provider, many thanks for your patience on this matter.
> 
> The Co-operative Group can confirm that a robust procurement process considering, amongst other factors, cost, operational efficiency and geographical capability is currently underway for our occupational health services provider. Having been scored against an agreed set of parameters and against other bidders, Atos Healthcare have not progressed to the later rounds of that process and our intention is to have a new provider in place when the current contract terminates.
> Gail.


 
As a banking customer I had complained to them so, Result!


----------



## toggle (Jan 14, 2013)

one down. Next?


----------



## audiotech (Jan 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Not so sure about that. Isn't it the act of walking creating severe discomfort what counts?
> 
> Himself will definitely lose it, and therefore his Freedom Pass on top of bedroom tax that he'll have to pay


 
Discretionary Housing Payments Guidance Manual. (pdf doc)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Discretionary Housing Payments Guidance Manual. (pdf doc)


 
Yeah, I know about that.  Cheers


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jan 15, 2013)

Does anyone know. I was given the all now well known 0 points at my atos ass. After waiting 10 months for my appeal to come up I 
received a letter saying they had looked at the decision and had now decided to award me esa in the wrag group. Yipee.
 I phoned them regards how long this would be for etc, and also asked for the information as to the reasons for overturning the 
atos medical in writing. Two weeks have passed and still no letter, can anyone advise if they must give me this info or not.
 atb angus.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

angusmcfangus said:


> Does anyone know. I was given the all now well known 0 points at my atos ass. After waiting 10 months for my appeal to come up I
> received a letter saying they had looked at the decision and had now decided to award me esa in the wrag group. Yipee.
> I phoned them regards how long this would be for etc, and also asked for the information as to the reasons for overturning the
> atos medical in writing. Two weeks have passed and still no letter, can anyone advise if they must give me this info or not.
> atb angus.


Hi angus
You should be told how long you have received the support group for - and congratulations on your results, fab news 

I do not know if they are obliged to give you a reason for overturning the atos medical, however, under the terms of the Data Protection Act you are entitled to receive all information held about you. You can do usually do this by making a request in writing to the DWP.

Hope that helps 

ViolentPanda may have some additional information, if he is able.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

angusmcfangus said:


> Does anyone know. I was given the all now well known 0 points at my atos ass. After waiting 10 months for my appeal to come up I
> received a letter saying they had looked at the decision and had now decided to award me esa in the wrag group. Yipee.
> I phoned them regards how long this would be for etc, and also asked for the information as to the reasons for overturning the
> atos medical in writing. Two weeks have passed and still no letter, can anyone advise if they must give me this info or not.
> atb angus.


 
I waited a few weeks for letter to come with explanation I think, although they didn't send me all the info I asked for.  I wanted the info saying how many points had been awarded etc. but just got thing saying how long award was for (Support Group) and the reason


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jan 15, 2013)

Good Lass, thanks for that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hi angus
> You should be told how long you have received the support group for - and congratulations on your results, fab news
> 
> I do not know if they are obliged to give you a reason for overturning the atos medical, however, under the terms of the Data Protection Act you are entitled to receive all information held about you. You can do usually do this by making a request in writing to the DWP.
> ...


 
He got the WRAG group equationgirl, but better than getting struck off altogether


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

Have just had a look, and this is what I asked for


*ESA85A* report plus the *ESA85S* aka personalised summary statement.
*ESA113* report from your GP (if one was requested)
any medical reports from your GP or Consultants
*LT54 (completed by decision-maker)?*

there's also an ESA72 which tells you what group you're in and when you're up for assessment next

and I'm sure there's an ESA65, but I can't remember what that is

I'm guessing all they sent me was the ESA72


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

Found this on _Benefits and Work_



> Hi Just me,
> I too was put in WRAG without a medical.
> I asked for reports and have been sent the following.
> ESA72,this tells me what group i am in and that my next assessment will be up for review on 25/05/12.
> ...


 
Worth reading the thread though

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?catid=10&id=67639&view=topic&start=6

and this one

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?catid=10&id=71859&view=topic


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Have just had a look, and this is what I asked for
> 
> 
> *ESA85A* report plus the *ESA85S* aka personalised summary statement.
> ...


I'm guessing you heard nothing?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'm guessing you heard nothing?


 

Nope, only the one that said he was in Support Group due to walking difficulties.  Zilch about his brain damage


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

Actually, just dug it out, and they sent me ESA85A (Medical Report Form) which was written up by a Registered Nurse which lists:

*Advice*
I advise that the client meets support group critiera as they have severe functional disability

*Prognosis*
I advise that a return to work is unlikely for at least 2 years

*Justification of Advice*
The available evidence from the ESA50 and Med 3 *(wonder what Med 3 is?*) has been used to give advice in this case.  The Med 3 and ESA50 blah blah blah (basically suggesting he can't mobilise 50 metres repeatedly within a reasonable timescale due to severe ongoing neurological problems).


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jan 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I waited a few weeks for letter to come with explanation I think, although they didn't send me all the info I asked for. I wanted the info saying how many points had been awarded etc. but just got thing saying how long award was for (Support Group) and the reason


#
Aye Minnie, the woman on the phone explained I was now in the wrag group until sept 13 when I will be reassessed. But the info I want is why my case went from 0 points at the medical to been put in the wrag group having not submitting any supporting evidence myself and it not going to the appeal stage. Not complaining like. would help for the next round if this info was available to myself, atb angus.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

angusmcfangus said:


> #
> Aye Minnie, the woman on the phone explained I was now in the wrag group until sept 13 when I will be reassessed. But the info I want is why my case went from 0 points at the medical to been put in the wrag group having not submitting any supporting evidence myself and it not going to the appeal stage. Not complaining like. would help for the next round if this info was available to myself, atb angus.


 
Well that's exactly why I want it, for when DLA comes up.  Hardly worth writing pages and pages and pages of stuff if they've decided some of it counts and some doesn't.  Want to know what to concentrate on


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 15, 2013)

Oh, just googled Med 3 as had no idea what it is, and looks like it could be your GP's report

http://www.rightsnet.org.uk/forum-archive/index5e29.html

Looks like the Fit Note, arch enemy of the Sick Note unless it goes in your favour 

http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?view=topic&catid=10&id=82256


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hi angus
> You should be told how long you have received the support group for - and congratulations on your results, fab news
> 
> I do not know if they are obliged to give you a reason for overturning the atos medical, however, under the terms of the Data Protection Act you are entitled to receive all information held about you. You can do usually do this by making a request in writing to the DWP.
> ...


 
Send a written request by recorded delivery, and keep a copy.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Send a written request by recorded delivery, and keep a copy.


Cheers VP


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Nope, only the one that said he was in Support Group due to walking difficulties. Zilch about his brain damage


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jan 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hi angus
> You should be told how long you have received the support group for - and congratulations on your results, fab news
> 
> I do not know if they are obliged to give you a reason for overturning the atos medical, however, under the terms of the Data Protection Act you are entitled to receive all information held about you. You can do usually do this by making a request in writing to the DWP.
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

angusmcfangus said:


> Good Lass, thanks for that.


Keep copies of all information submitted, in case you need it again for future forms.


----------



## angusmcfangus (Jan 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hi angus
> You should be told how long you have received the support group for - and congratulations on your results, fab news
> 
> I do not know if they are obliged to give you a reason for overturning the atos medical, however, under the terms of the Data Protection Act you are entitled to receive all information held about you. You can do usually do this by making a request in writing to the DWP.
> ...


Hi equationgirl, is the quilted design in your avatar a clue to where you come from. angus.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

angusmcfangus said:


> Hi equationgirl, is the quilted design in your avatar a clue to where you come from. angus.


Hi angus - no, it's just a pattern that I like


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 15, 2013)

I've still heard nothing from either the DWP or ATOS about either my assessment (originally scheduled for November 21 last year) or any decision on my claim. Trouble is, I don't really want to tempt fate by calling them up and making enquiries.


----------



## toggle (Jan 15, 2013)

fuck em.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 15, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I've still heard nothing from either the DWP or ATOS about either my assessment (originally scheduled for November 21 last year) or any decision on my claim. Trouble is, I don't really want to tempt fate by calling them up and making enquiries.


 
If you're still getting paid I'd be inclined to leave well alone.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 15, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I've still heard nothing from either the DWP or ATOS about either my assessment (originally scheduled for November 21 last year) or any decision on my claim. Trouble is, I don't really want to tempt fate by calling them up and making enquiries.


I'd leave it be. Chances are your paperwork is in a pile of 'don't know what to do with this' files. Let them sort it out. Claimants are chasing far too much as it is.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2013)

toggle said:


> fuck em.


 
In the face, with a billhook.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> If you're still getting paid I'd be inclined to leave well alone.


 
^ that.

the friend I referred to a few pages back should have had his assessment several months ago - he missed one (September I think) due to not being well enough (his GP backed this up) and it took ages to get this one.

Another silly question (that may already have been answered somewhere) - how long does it normally take from having an ATOS assessment to getting any communication from DWP?  (I just want to be ready for the crisis if it's a "sod off" letter...)


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 16, 2013)

Also, how long does it take to get a decision or be called to a medical? I've heard nothing since sending the questionnaire back at the end of November. I guess that's only 6 weeks (with Christmas) but it feels like forever.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> In the face, with a billhook.


 
Too humane.

If my grandfather were still alive I'd hand them over to him to use as live punchbags for demonstrating his hand-to-hand and unarmed skills.

'So, gramps, exactly what facial expression would someone get if you really did rip their knackers off while crushing their windpipe at the same time..?'


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> ^ that.
> 
> the friend I referred to a few pages back should have had his assessment several months ago - he missed one (September I think) due to not being well enough (his GP backed this up) and it took ages to get this one.
> 
> Another silly question (that may already have been answered somewhere) - how long does it normally take from having an ATOS assessment to getting any communication from DWP? (I just want to be ready for the crisis if it's a "sod off" letter...)


Ages. VP mentioned his views on it earlier in the thread, and he thought it was the DWP just being petty about losing so many cases (I summarise) by taking it out on the claimants. Also there is a backlog building up because the tribunal service has just been swamped by a tidal wave of appeals thanks to Atos's behaviour.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Ages. VP mentioned his views on it earlier in the thread, and he thought it was the DWP just being petty about losing so many cases (I summarise) by taking it out on the claimants. Also there is a backlog building up because the tribunal service has just been swamped by a tidal wave of appeals thanks to Atos's behaviour.


 
I guess that means friend will continue getting his ESA until such time as the decision is made

We'll cross the appeal bridge if and when we get there


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I guess that means friend will continue getting his ESA until such time as the decision is made
> 
> We'll cross the appeal bridge if and when we get there


He should do, I think.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

WORK CAPABILITY ASSESSMENT DEBATE LIVE NOW

THINK IT STARTED AROUND 11.00 so probably missed most of it​


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 17, 2013)

hm, so did I hear that correctly?  Work and Pensions Secretary claiming only 15% of appeals are won?


----------



## Mephitic (Jan 18, 2013)

Article in todays Independant, sorry if its already been posted here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 18, 2013)

Mephitic said:


> Article in todays Independant, sorry if its already been posted here.


 
I watched the whole debate and loads of MPs quoted loads of sad stories


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2013)

From the Article:


> A spokeswoman for Atos Healthcare said: “We know that this can be a difficult process for people and we do all we can to make sure the service we provide is as professional and compassionate as possible. We have been doing this work...for over a decade and our doctors, nurses and physiotherapists are fully trained and experienced, with many coming directly from the NHS.”


 
They wouldn't know the meaning of compassion


----------



## toggle (Jan 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> From the Article:
> 
> 
> They wouldn't know the meaning of compassion


 
with many coming from the nhs- presumably this would be the people the nhs sacked?


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 18, 2013)

toggle said:


> with many coming from the nhs- presumably this would be the people the nhs sacked?


 
Oh, the ones the NHS sacked for varying froms and degrees of malpractice and incompetency, those ones?

Or are they still hiring in fairly large numbers the ones who've already been struck off in other countries, while turning a blind eye to the fact that their fellow medical professionals already consider them unfit to practice?


----------



## Quartz (Jan 19, 2013)

Money quote:



> Kevan Jones, a former Labour minister, said suicides of claimants who were found fit to work by Atos had been reported. “There are...a number of well-publicised cases where people have taken their own lives because of this system,” he said. “It is not too strong to say that this Coalition Government has blood on their hands for the deaths of those individuals.”




The Coalition have the power to fire ATOS and haven't.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 19, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Money quote:
> 
> 
> 
> The Coalition have the power to fire ATOS and haven't.


Do you have any views on why you think that might be?


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 19, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Do you have any views on why you think that might be?


 
Probably the same reason the plod haven't looked at ATOS filing tender documents falsely claiming they were in consultation with a half-dozen major disability organisations without having actually mentioned this to the organisations in question. If anybody at ATOS ended up facing a long stretch, or the Coalition tried to terminate the Work Capability Assessment contract, I wonder whether all manner of interesting tidbits might suddenly find their way into the public domain.

In either situation, I doubt strongly that it would be just ATOS leaving blood on the carpet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2013)

toggle said:


> with many coming from the nhs- presumably this would be the people the nhs sacked?


 
Wrong emphasis, IMO. Often not *sacked* _per se_ but, like the Old Bill, encouraged to leave. Sacking would mean a black mark on the employee's CV, and costly administration for the former employer.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Money quote:
> 
> 
> 
> The Coalition have the power to fire ATOS and haven't.


 
Nope, they don't. They have no power to fire ATOS in the normal sense of the word "fire". What they have the power to do is void the contract. Unfortunately, voiding the contract without providing cast-iron evidence of failure of service (you know, the stuff that the coalition have been turning a blind eye to and shifting the goalposts on?), the cost to the UK public will be massive in terms of termination clauses etc.

So, the coalition have no power to "fire" ATOS, and no political will whatsoever to void their contract.


----------



## Quartz (Jan 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, the coalition have no power to "fire" ATOS,


 
Pedantically, you are, of course, correct. But speaking colloquially, I very much doubt this is true. Contracts work both ways. The real issue is, as you rightly point out:



> and no political will whatsoever to void their contract.


 
This, however, is very true.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Pedantically, you are, of course, correct. But speaking colloquially, I very much doubt this is true. Contracts work both ways.


 
Contracts only work both ways when both parties to the contract are equally fit to formulate such a contract. As it is, we know that the government lawyers haven't been up to the task of even assuring fair value in PFI. What makes you think that this contract iss any different?


----------



## Quartz (Jan 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Contracts only work both ways when both parties to the contract are equally fit to formulate such a contract. As it is, we know that the government lawyers haven't been up to the task of even assuring fair value in PFI. What makes you think that this contract iss any different?


 
Because the Tories are right bastards who won't hesitate to screw ATOS if they can be convinced it's to their political advantage. That last, generating the political will, is the difficult bit.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Wrong emphasis, IMO. Often not *sacked* _per se_ but, like the Old Bill, encouraged to leave. Sacking would mean a black mark on the employee's CV, and costly administration for the former employer.


 
I've often thought professional type jobs are an easier gig for the incompetant - If you're, say,  an order picker and you're unable to make your pick rates you'll be latered at the earliest opportunity, but if you're a professional and you're shit at you're job you'll likely as not be shunted off into some backwater position where you can't do much harm but, crucially, you'll still be getting paid every month.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 19, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Do you have any views on why you think that might be?


 
The same reason that the DWP doesn't have any way of monitoring the performance of ATOS at the level of the individual assessments, even down to not being able to check that the assessments are performed by genuine medical professionals. ATOS have given a lot of money to the political parties and it's the unwritten contract that has precedence. ATOS get to soak the taxpayer, the political parties get to spend millions on advertising and don't go bust. Everybody that matters is happy, and as far as they are concerned the rest of us can just eff off.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 19, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> The same reason that the DWP doesn't have any way of monitoring the performance of ATOS at the level of the individual assessments, even down to not being able to check that the assessments are performed by genuine medical professionals. ATOS have given a lot of money to the political parties and it's the unwritten contract that has precedence. ATOS get to soak the taxpayer, the political parties get to spend millions on advertising and don't go bust. Everybody that matters is happy, and as far as they are concerned the rest of us can just eff off.


I was asking Quartz, because he seems to be showing himself to be a bit of a master at the old hit'n'run opining thing, but I quite like your explanation, too


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 19, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've often thought professional type jobs are an easier gig for the incompetant - If you're, say, an order picker and you're unable to make your pick rates you'll be latered at the earliest opportunity, but if you're a professional and you're shit at you're job you'll likely as not be shunted off into some backwater position where you can't do much harm but, crucially, you'll still be getting paid every month.


Couldn't agree more. I work with some people who are still here despite being unable to properly the staff and work under their control, whilst one administrator lost their job purely because their own line manager didn't understand what they did. They were so good at what they did they just got on with the job and caused no problems.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 21, 2013)

I've been having a tidy and found ATOS related things at Lees House in Brighton.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)




----------



## Greebo (Jan 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


One fire door looks borked and the other one shouldn't have been wedged open.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 21, 2013)

Note above
the broken fire exit door
The illegally jammed open fire door
The little corner at the punters entrance where I found a sharp

I phoned "customer relations"


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> One fire door looks borked and the other one shouldn't have been wedged open.


 
Oh, you mean that's at ATOS Assessment Centre?


----------



## yardbird (Jan 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh, you mean that's at ATOS Assessment Centre?


yes, sorry. trying to send their transcript of my call.
no joy yet


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)

yardbird said:


> yes, sorry. trying to send their transcript of my call.
> no joy yet


 
I see. Trying to send their transcript of your call to where? 

eta:  It's alright.  I'm guessing you took those photos of an assessment centre a while ago and have been on phone to them since and you're sending photos as evidence

















or something


----------



## yardbird (Jan 21, 2013)

Sorry I'm messing up.
This was the start of me battling with ATOS in '09


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 21, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Sorry I'm messing up.
> This was the start of me battling with ATOS in '09


 


Not to worry, dealing with ATOS does things to your sanity


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 23, 2013)

More from Philip Hensher, twunt extraordinaire:

http://www.afteratos.com/?p=2856


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 23, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> More from Philip Hensher, twunt extraordinaire:
> 
> http://www.afteratos.com/?p=2856


He sounds delightful.


----------



## oryx (Jan 25, 2013)

Campaigning group 38 Degrees have emailed people asking for ATOS horror stories - don't know if this might be of interest to anyone here (sorry for craply done quote and I'm not a member, just signed a few of their petitions):

For hundreds of thousands of sick and disabled people, being *called in by ATOS to be assessed for whether they are fit to work is a terrifying experience. *What makes it even more terrifying is the fact that ATOS keeps getting it wrong. [1] *ATOS’ deeply flawed system has led to thousands of people being forced to try to work *when they physically can’t.

*So far the government has failed to deal with the big mistakes ATOS repeatedly makes.* It has done little to sort out the disability benefit tests which medical experts have described as ‘not fit for purpose’. [2]

*Personal stories can often be the most powerful tool in persuading politicians to do the right thing.* Michael Meacher, MP, is arranging a meeting with Iain Duncan Smith, Minister for Work and Pensions who has the power to sort out these problems. So he needs *stories of ATOS getting it wrong to help convince him to act.*

Can you help? Have you or someone you know been tested by ATOS? *Would you be happy to share your experience?* The more people who share their stories, the more powerful the message to the minister.

*Help Michael Meacher convince Iain Duncan Smith to stand up to ATOS. Send in your story:*
belinda-atos@38degrees.org.uk

*Michael Meacher recently held a debate in parliament about ATOS’ work capability assessments.* He talked about one of his voters who had been told he could work by ATOS and had his benefits cut. The 24 year old, who suffered from severe epilepsy, appealed, but was worried and depressed about how to pay his rent or buy food. [3]

*Three months after seeing ATOS he died from a major seizure.* The month after his death, his parents were informed that a mistake had been made and his benefits were being restored.

*Iain Duncan Smith has the power to stand up to ATOS and demand these tests are changed.* But so far he hasn’t been convinced. Michael Meacher is trying to set up a meeting with him to change this. He is going to present a dossier of stories from sick and disabled people who have been told they are fit to work.

Many sick and disabled people would love to work, but due to their illness they simply can’t.* ATOS needs to change the way it assesses people, but they will only do this if forced to by the government.*

*Share your story:*
belinda-atos@38degrees.org.uk


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 27, 2013)

Atos GP Extraction Service 



> *What does GPES do?*
> 
> GPES will provide the data for all nationally sponsored initiatives that require data from GP clinical systems. In addition it will support and enable the NHS Information Centre’s new role as the single body authorised to conduct national data collections, as required by the Health and Social Care Act 2011.
> 
> ...


----------



## Frankie Jack (Jan 27, 2013)

Will there be anyone in the UK that hasn't been Atossed in one form or another..


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 28, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Will there be anyone in the UK that hasn't been Atossed in one form or another..


Probably not at this rate.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 28, 2013)

Frankie Jack said:


> Will there be anyone in the UK that hasn't been Atossed in one form or another..


 
Remember the whole point of this entire fiasco is to scare people into buying unemployment insurance. Everyone who does that is also a victim. So it's going to end up being a huge proportion of the population screwed up by ATOS and UNUM with the aid of the craven greedy thugs we have in lieu of politicians.


----------



## toggle (Jan 28, 2013)

that's one point, not the only point.

it also scares people into accepting shit rather than be unemployed. i'm fairly certain the terms i'm working under aren't legal. but it gives me enough income so we don't have to claim, either me on JSA (i'd probably be fucked about as a part time student) or for him to have to go back onto ESA.and i know in some ways that's letting the side down, but I will make no apologies for making sure my family have a roof over their heads and bakunin won't get fucked over by atos again. i've seen the change in him in the last year. I will do whatever i have to in order to make sure that isn't undone.

but i'm not the only one. more and more people will accept being treated like crap by employers. I've seen many stories about some of the shite americans have put up with to keep their medical insurance. they want people to accept being treated like crap. it's the way their mates will get round employment rights legislation. people accepted paycuts to keep their jobs. there's a lot of legal cuts to terms and cnditions. a lot of us will be facing illegal ones as well. and ther's fuck all most of us can do about that.

we're also being set up to be shamed if we loose the job/quit. A lot of employment here is seasonal. I shouldn't have to be ashamed that there isn't the work available here in the winter and I'm lucky to have what i have. but i'm 'underemployed' and the gvt is setting me up so that people will beleive this is through choice. never mind i was working 70 hour weeks(at times illegally long shifts) when there was work. but the gvt is portraying underemployment as a lifestyle choice, that i'm working only enough to keep the dwp off my back and i'm happy to subsist on benefits and that i'm a fucking lasy scrounger. never mind that wages are so fucking shit that I qualifed for top ups even when i was working those long shifts.

we'e being set up so the community will bully the un and underemployed and employers can fuck us over.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 28, 2013)

toggle said:


> that's one point, not the only point.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> we'e being set up so the community will bully the un and underemployed and employers can fuck us over.


 
That can't be stressed enough. All these trumpets who write to newspapers going on about however many hours they work for minimum wage or whatever while scroungers live the life of riley etc don't seem to realise they'd be working a hell of a lot more hours for about ten p a week if it wasn't for the benefit system.


----------



## toggle (Jan 28, 2013)

it's going back to the ideas of the deserving and undersrving poor. you have to be able to proove in the eyes of the dwp and the community that you are deserving of assistance instead of condemnation. complaining about the system being used as evidence that you are most likely to be placed in the 'undeserving' class. cause obviously anyone who was deserving would be happy to jump through dozens of useless hoops, be treated like shit and be forced to work for nothing in the hope they will be the lucky one in 500 to land that minimum wage 12 hours a week (that was a fake advertisement for an illegally internally filled vacancy)


----------



## Quartz (Jan 28, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> Remember the whole point of this entire fiasco is to scare people into buying unemployment insurance.


 
You mean, like, umm... what National Insurance is supposed to be?


----------



## existentialist (Jan 28, 2013)

Quartz said:


> You mean, like, umm... what National Insurance is supposed to be?


You'd think so, wouldn't you?


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 29, 2013)

Quartz said:


> You mean, like, umm... what National Insurance is supposed to be?


 
Yep. Except that UNUM don't get to make a profit from NI. So they need some way to get people to pay for something they've already paid for. The only way of doing that is to make the thing they've already paid for completely useless.


----------



## existentialist (Jan 29, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> Yep. Except that UNUM don't get to make a profit from NI. So they need some way to get people to pay for something they've already paid for. The only way of doing that is to make the thing they've already paid for completely useless.


And then, when they are some way down that road, to say "hey, you don't need that creaky State NI system, you might as well privatise it, and seeing as we already have x% of the market, we might as well run it"


----------



## ericjarvis (Jan 30, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And then, when they are some way down that road, to say "hey, you don't need that creaky State NI system, you might as well privatise it, and seeing as we already have x% of the market, we might as well run it"


 
Only when they have the personal/company unemployment insurance market saturated. There's a lot of scaring the middle class to go yet. Then when pretty much everyone self employed and earning a decent living has taken out a plan with UNUM we'll see the pressure turn to legislation to force companies to take out unemployment for their workers. Finally they will privatise the rump of the welfare system.


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 4, 2013)

Anybody know what the criteria are for stopping while walking for ESA / DLA?

If you can walk 10 meters but then need to stop for a few seconds to correct your balance to stop you falling over does that count or do you have to walk <20M then need a several hour kip for it to count?


----------



## yardbird (Feb 4, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Anybody know what the criteria are for stopping while walking for ESA / DLA?
> 
> If you can walk 10 meters but then need to stop for a few seconds to correct your balance to stop you falling over does that count or do you have to walk <20M then need a several hour kip for it to count?


If you can walk 10 meters then need to stop, then you _can only walk 10 meters._
Worst day, worst day.


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 4, 2013)

yardbird said:


> If you can walk 10 meters then need to stop, then you _can only walk 10 meters._
> Worst day, worst day.


 CAB the other day said that a 2 minute break wasn't long enough.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 4, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> CAB the other day said that a 2 minute break wasn't long enough.


 
Be selective in what you tell them. You can't walk more than ten metres - No need to mention that you can carry on for a bit after a two minute break.


----------



## Frumious B. (Feb 4, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Anybody know what the criteria are for stopping while walking for ESA / DLA?
> 
> If you can walk 10 meters but then need to stop for a few seconds to correct your balance to stop you falling over does that count or do you have to walk <20M then need a several hour kip for it to count?


 
There's very clear guidance on this sort of question at benefitsandwork.co.uk. They tackle the issue of how to answer when your condition fluctuates. I forget the details, but I do remember that they advise not to exaggerate by describing your 'worst' days as normal. Sorry if this doesn't make sense, I'm v. tired, best to check the guides.


----------



## Urbanblues (Feb 4, 2013)

*United sector secures late changes to PIP Regulations*
Posted on *February 4, 2013*


Following sustained pressure by members of the Hardest Hit Coalition, Spartacus and other campaigners, the DWP has agreed to require PIP assessors to consider whether claimants can perform activities to an acceptable standard, safely, repeatedly, and in a reasonable time period.

These requirements are now in the PIP Regulations currently before Parliament. Previously they were only in the guidance for assessors and would therefore have carried significantly less weight when decisions are made about eligibility.
This is an important breakthrough and means there is much less reason to fear the introduction of the 20m cut-off for eligibility for higher rate mobility of PIP.
Over 750 of you used the e-action on the Hardest Hit website to contact your MP and express concern over this issue and your hard work was instrumental in securing change to the assessment regulations.
Look out for the Channel 4 Dispatches programme on PIP – due to be broadcast in the next week or so.

 DWP
*31 January 2013 – PIP assessment guidance to be further strengthened in law*

How someone carries out a range of activities will be considered when their eligibility for the Personal Independence Payment (PIP) is assessed, under law, Esther McVey, Minister for Disabled People, confirmed today.
The proposed addition to the regulations now means that legally individuals will be assessed on what they can do safely, reliably, repeatedly and in a reasonable time period.
Following a consultation on the regulations, it was suggested some of the criteria claimants needed to meet was unclear and didn't take into account fluctuating conditions. These amendments seek to address this.
*Minister for Disabled People, Esther McVey said:*
"Our intention has always been the same - we want to target support at those who need it most. We have always said that we will not just look at whether individuals can carry out activities but also the manner in which they do so.
"I know that disabled people and their representatives feel strongly that this important concept is set out in law and I am happy to do this."
The addition to the regulations formalises the current wording included in draft PIP guidance.
A draft amending regulation has been published today. A final Regulation will be laid once the PIP regulations currently being considered by Parliament are made but before they come into force in April.
*Note to Editors:*
The draft amending Regulation is published on the DWP website:
www.dwp.gov.uk/policy/disability/personal-independence-payment/the-assessment-criteria/


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

I just did an atos form, I might post an excerpt, went a bit postal on it


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

I have just started cunting them off on the forms, it's all totally fucking irrelevant.

My handwriting is a fucking embarrassment, at least it's better than 5 months ago when I could barely write my own name cus me shitty spazhand wouldn't work.

I enjoy doing atos forms now cus I just tell then their form is a shiterag and they are cunts. 

I do not fucking care any more.


----------



## TruXta (Feb 7, 2013)

Well said. Maybe not the bit about cancer (I'll make exceptions for the proper decision-makers tho).


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

All of the cunts need to know how the fuck it feels, you can replace it with any other disease than cancer, I don't care.

And they are all decision makers despite their bullshit claims they aren't, they decide shit that has an impact, they are all pricks. Every single one of em at every stage of the process is a cunt and I hope they get fucking pwned by incurable disease.


----------



## yardbird (Feb 7, 2013)

I attached notes like tp and told them I'd had suicidal thoughts.
I also made venomous remarks - seemed to work for me.

(looks down at fingers to make them go in the right place)


----------



## Greebo (Feb 7, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> All of the cunts need to know how the fuck it feels, you can replace it with any other disease than cancer, I don't care.<snip>


Severe M.E., fairly advanced M.S., or the slow burning type of motor neurone disease would be what I'd prefer them to get:  Something which almost certainly wouldn't kill the wrong un very quickly, but would leave him/her fully aware of being trapped in their own body and unable to do anything about it.


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

Thanks for that.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2013)

Hope you get a good result tp.


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Severe M.E., fairly advanced M.S., or the slow burning type of motor neurone disease would be what I'd prefer them to get:  Something which almost certainly wouldn't kill the wrong un very quickly, but would leave him/her fully aware of being trapped in their own body and unable to do anything about it.



The mark of a cunt.  

As if I needed any more shit, nice reminder of what I've got to look forward to, I'll be sure to give you a mention in me suicide note.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 7, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> The mark of a cunt.
> 
> As if I needed any more shit, nice reminder of what I've got to look forward to, I'll be sure to give you a mention in me suicide note.


You're not dying yet, missy.  Not by your own hand.  Not before celebrating Thatcher's death and Cameron & Clegg being kicked out of Downing Street.


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> You're not dying yet, missy.  Not by your own hand.  Not before celebrating Thatcher's death and Cameron & Clegg being kicked out of Downing Street.



OH JUST FUCK OFF.


----------



## Bakunin (Feb 8, 2013)

And they've just been savaged further by a cross-party Parliamentary committee, an influential one at that:

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...co-commons-public-accounts-committee-mps-say/


----------



## Firky (Feb 8, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> I have just started cunting them off on the forms, it's all totally fucking irrelevant.
> 
> My handwriting is a fucking embarrassment, at least it's better than 5 months ago when I could barely write my own name cus me shitty spazhand wouldn't work.
> 
> ...


 

One for the ATOS office notice board init. 

Have you thought of about putting a sprinkling of talcum powder in with your application?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

firky said:


> One for the ATOS office notice board init.
> 
> Have you thought of about putting a sprinkling of talcum powder in with your application?


 
Aren't claims opened by the Post Office though, so no point?

Not that I'm suggesting TP should


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 8, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> And they've just been savaged further by a cross-party Parliamentary committee, an influential one at that:
> 
> http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/20...co-commons-public-accounts-committee-mps-say/


Hopefully something will change, liked the implication halfway through that Atos had been incorrectly billing the DWP.


----------



## Frumious B. (Feb 8, 2013)

C4 News has a big story about the WCA in half an hour. http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-testing-system-causes-misery-and-hardship


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

hope someone bumps this in 1/2 hour


----------



## Firky (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> hope someone bumps this in 1/2 hour




Minnie_the_Minx, 22 minutes ago


----------



## Libertad (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

firky said:


> Minnie_the_Minx, 22 minutes ago


 

Thank you.  No mention of the WCA on Channel 4


----------



## Firky (Feb 8, 2013)

They must have dropped it for the dead donkey (horse).


----------



## Firky (Feb 8, 2013)

Brixton is on. Offal.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

firky said:


> They must have dropped it for the dead donkey (horse).


 
Looks like it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

Much juicier story innit


----------



## pengaleng (Feb 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Aren't claims opened by the Post Office though, so no point?
> 
> Not that I'm suggesting TP should



Not if you write 'PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL TO BE OPENED BY ATOS STAFF ONLY' on it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 8, 2013)

tribal_princess said:


> Not if you write 'PRIVATE AND CONFIDENTIAL TO BE OPENED BY ATOS STAFF ONLY' on it


 
I was so relived to finish form, I orgot about that bit


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 9, 2013)

Can you use a fountain pen and fill your form in using your own blood?


----------



## toggle (Feb 9, 2013)

i think i'd be tempted to use a dip pen to write in blood, i wouldn't want to have to try and clean coagulated blood out of the fountain pen.

mrs quoad is your expert on pens if you need to give that a try.


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 9, 2013)

Put a p.s. at the end "can you please make a quick desicion on this as I've had to slash my wrist to get enough blood to complete this form."


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 9, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Put a p.s. at the end "can you please make a quick desicion on this as I've had to slash my wrist to get enough blood to complete this form."


Chances are it would be weeks before someone actually read the form anyway, so I'm not sure it would work. I do like your creativity though


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 9, 2013)

It's a criminal offence to send shit through the post & I reckon it'd be a similar gig with blood coz of hepititis and that. Got the results of my appeal this morning 40 or 50 A4 pages essentially saying no chance. I've still got the tribunal option (I think, I'm not looking at the letter til Monday), which I will take - Not to do so would be letting the side down & although I don't think it'll get anywhere it will generate a bit of paperwork for some trumpet to deal with.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 9, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's a criminal offence to send shit through the post & I reckon it'd be a similar gig with blood coz of hepititis and that. Got the results of my appeal this morning 40 or 50 A4 pages essentially saying no chance. I've still got the tribunal option (I think, I'm not looking at the letter til Monday), which I will take - Not to do so would be letting the side down & although I don't think it'll get anywhere it will generate a bit of paperwork for some trumpet to deal with.


Sorry to hear this Frances, post on Monday if you can deal with it then and I'll do what I can to help.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 10, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It's a criminal offence to send shit through the post & I reckon it'd be a similar gig with blood coz of hepititis and that. Got the results of my appeal this morning 40 or 50 A4 pages essentially saying no chance. I've still got the tribunal option (I think, I'm not looking at the letter til Monday), which I will take - Not to do so would be letting the side down & although I don't think it'll get anywhere it will generate a bit of paperwork for some trumpet to deal with.


 
You can send shit through the post, it just has to be properly packaged (sealed container, then external protective packaging such as a cardboard box), and *dried* blood isn't a health hazard.
Sorry to hear about the appeal wankery.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 10, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can send shit through the post, it just has to be properly packaged (sealed container, then external protective packaging such as a cardboard box), and *dried* blood isn't a health hazard.
> Sorry to hear about the appeal wankery.


 
Well it's very low risk.  Hep C can apparently survive anything from  minimum 16 hours to 4 days


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 18, 2013)

Shocking account of an assessment.  Apologies if it's been posted before, but don't think I've seen it

http://www.twitlonger.com/show/l06hje


----------



## ddraig (Feb 19, 2013)

can i have a direct link to that please, won't open in work as is

also, i know there is lots of info on this thread and i have seen some of it as well as stuff from DPAC etc

i send links and stories to someone working in this area and preparing for the time bomb going off in April and what impacts it is having and going to have.

so if possible, could someone link to any 'studies on the impact on the health of those waiting for and going through a work capacity assessment' please?

i already have the 
http://politicsuk.eu/archives/12537 Benefits Cuts, suicides and deaths. and the channel 4 link

many thanks


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

ddraig said:


> can i have a direct link to that please, won't open in work as is
> 
> also, i know there is lots of info on this thread and i have seen some of it as well as stuff from DPAC etc
> 
> ...


 


That is a direct link.  It works for me


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)

Atos to engage with online forums

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012...g-to-work-with-forums-and-online-communities/

That'll go well


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Atos to engage with online forums
> 
> http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012...g-to-work-with-forums-and-online-communities/
> 
> That'll go well


I think the only direct engagement claimants want with Atos involves Molotov cocktails and the LIMA software.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 19, 2013)




----------



## Bakunin (Feb 19, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Atos to engage with online forums
> 
> http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012...g-to-work-with-forums-and-online-communities/
> 
> That'll go well


 
It'll make a change from threatening to sue them and approaching ISP's to get them taken down.


----------



## existentialist (Feb 19, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> It'll make a change from threatening to sue them and approaching ISP's to get them taken down.


OR maybe that's what they mean by "engaging with". ATOS do seem to have some pretty fundamental difficulties when it comes to the use of the English language...


----------



## Cloo (Feb 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Shocking account of an assessment. Apologies if it's been posted before, but don't think I've seen it
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/l06hje


I saw this the other day - geez, have they found some kind of 'humanity' switch that they turn off in ATOS employees?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2013)

Cloo said:


> I saw this the other day - geez, have they found some kind of 'humanity' switch that they turn off in ATOS employees?


 
...and NHS employees?

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f4bd06b4-76a1-11e2-ac91-00144feabdc0.html#axzz2LCh5rmQi



> Atos, the French outsourcing company hired to carry out the government’s new disability assessments, has subcontracted much of the work back to the NHS.
> NHS Trusts including University College London, Kings and York will deploy thousands of health professionals to carry out the assessments, which will determine whether people are entitled to extra money to help cope with disability.


 
ffs


----------



## Cloo (Feb 20, 2013)

This stuff just makes no sense - I remember when I was on a mental health trust public patient forum years back, and the gov had created a quango to manage the whole thing, who put the administrative support out to tender. So everyone ended up with totally useless, underqualified, undertrained admin assistants who literally couldn't so much as work out how to book a room for a meeting, some of whom didn't speak good English, let alone were able to write minutes of meeting with mental health jargon flying about.

Honestly, it would have been so much better for the whole thing to be run by the NHS - conflict of interest be damned, just have a good complaints system in case forum members feel they are being strongarmed or obstructed by the trust they represent. Instead, the quango was inevitably dismantled after a year or two, everyone complained about their admin support and money was spent getting new (and equally useless) organisations to take up the contracts.  At least with the NHS you might have had some continuity and someone in the equation might have learned lessons. Under this 'hire and fire' (or worse still, don't fire even when totally useless) culture, no one learns anything and the government spends time and money dealing with tendering processes.


----------



## _angel_ (Feb 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Shocking account of an assessment. Apologies if it's been posted before, but don't think I've seen it
> 
> http://www.twitlonger.com/show/l06hje


Yes unfortunately I saw this and many other things like it - what that "doctor" did technically is an assault and really people need to be ringing the police and trying to get criminal charges brought, forget making a complaint to atos.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 21, 2013)

Hi. Got an atos letter and esa 50 form to fill in. I don't see anyone, haven't for years so don't know who to put in for who knows my condition best. Brain injuries don't need ongoing treatment in a lot of cases.
Plus face to face assessment. I think that would be in Dundee, I don't think I would be fit to drive there so do I put I have difficulty leaving the house/using public transport?
Would I be better to see if I can get help from Welfare Rights to fill this in?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Feb 21, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Hi. Got an atos letter and esa 50 form to fill in. I don't see anyone, haven't for years so don't know who to put in for who knows my condition best. Brain injuries don't need ongoing treatment in a lot of cases.
> Plus face to face assessment. I think that would be in Dundee, I don't think I would be fit to drive there so do I put I have difficulty leaving the house/using public transport?
> Would I be better to see if I can get help from Welfare Rights to fill this in?


 
Yes, always get help with your form if possible.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

Definitely get help.

When himself got decision for support group, absolutely zilch on it about his memory problems, so I've no idea whether they were even taken into consideration


----------



## kittyP (Feb 21, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Hi. Got an atos letter and esa 50 form to fill in. I don't see anyone, haven't for years so don't know who to put in for who knows my condition best. Brain injuries don't need ongoing treatment in a lot of cases.
> Plus face to face assessment. I think that would be in Dundee, I don't think I would be fit to drive there so do I put I have difficulty leaving the house/using public transport?
> Would I be better to see if I can get help from Welfare Rights to fill this in?


 
Get help if you can honey. 

In my case (I am waiting for another form) I am going to get them to come to me A. Due to genuinley I often can't leave the house due to blind panic and B. I am afraid that if I go to them they will think that I am not as bad as I am claiming. 

I do have good days and I am afraid I am going to have to act to prove what it's like on the worst days. 
That makes me feel like a fraud


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Get help if you can honey.
> 
> In my case (I am waiting for another form) I am going to get them to come to me A. Due to genuinley I often can't leave the house due to blind panic and B. I am afraid that if I go to them they will think that I am not as bad as I am claiming.
> 
> ...


 

It's ridiculous that more and more people are staying in because they're scared someone's going to grass them for being able to walk outside


----------



## kittyP (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's ridiculous that more and more people are staying in because they're scared someone's going to grass them for being able to walk outside


 
I know. 
And how am I supposed to get better if I can't go out from time to time? 
It's like the whole process is keeping me sick


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know.
> And how am I supposed to get better if I can't go out from time to time?
> It's like the whole process is keeping me sick


 
You have to sneak out in the middle of the night to get some exercise


----------



## yardbird (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's ridiculous that more and more people are staying in because they're scared someone's going to grass them for being able to walk outside


I've been pretty good physically recently and loads needs doing outside, but I've rationed my "exposure" not because anyone would grass but because I don't want to piss off those who are very helpful when I'm bad.
I have been washing all the walls _inside._


----------



## kittyP (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You have to sneak out in the middle of the night to get some exercise


 
I am getting more paranoid about how I am seen by others but it's more how it feels in my head. 
I feel like a fraud to myself


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I am getting more paranoid about how I am seen by others but it's more how it feels in my head.
> I feel like a fraud to myself


 
I don't think it's just you kittyP


----------



## kittyP (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think it's just you kittyP


 
Oh I am sure lots of others feel the same


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Oh I am sure lots of others feel the same


i certainly did.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's ridiculous that more and more people are staying in because they're scared someone's going to grass them for being able to walk outside


Agreed.  The week that I was barely able to even wobble as far as the loo, VP had no option but to go out on 2 separate days, in spite of the extra pain and fatigue that caused him.  He relapsed afterwards, shame those who are so glib about him just needing to make an effort are conveniently never there when he's crashed.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Agreed. The week that I was barely able to even wobble as far as the loo, VP had no option but to go out on 2 separate days, in spite of the extra pain and fatigue that caused him. He relapsed afterwards, shame those who are so glib about him just needing to make an effort are conveniently never there when he's crashed.


 


and that's why they need to take more notice of fluctuating conditions, but conveniently don't


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and that's why they need to take more notice of fluctuating conditions, but conveniently don't


Their system can't even handle claimants having more than one condition, never mind fluctuating conditions. Bag of shite software.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 21, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Hi. Got an atos letter and esa 50 form to fill in. I don't see anyone, haven't for years so don't know who to put in for who knows my condition best. Brain injuries don't need ongoing treatment in a lot of cases.
> Plus face to face assessment. I think that would be in Dundee, I don't think I would be fit to drive there so do I put I have difficulty leaving the house/using public transport?
> Would I be better to see if I can get help from Welfare Rights to fill this in?


Make a list of all your medicines, if you have any, and list their side effects. Highlight any side effect that appears twice or more.

You might also find these links about head/brain injury useful.
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...c-brain-disorders/head-injury-intro-obd.shtml
It's the official DWP guidance for decisionmakers, in particular see this:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/

PM me if you like.

Also, don't be afraid to write longer answers on blank paper and attach it to the form.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 22, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Hi. Got an atos letter and esa 50 form to fill in. I don't see anyone, haven't for years so don't know who to put in for who knows my condition best. Brain injuries don't need ongoing treatment in a lot of cases.
> Plus face to face assessment. I think that would be in Dundee, I don't think I would be fit to drive there so do I put I have difficulty leaving the house/using public transport?
> Would I be better to see if I can get help from Welfare Rights to fill this in?


 
If you wanna PM me an e-mail address, I'll send you a .pdf of the Benefits and Work guide to filling out the ESA50 to the best effect, but if your welfare rights people fill in a lot of them, they'd be best if you're not well-versed in filling the bastard things out.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda Do you have a comparable pdf for filling out a DLA claim form?


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 22, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Make a list of all your medicines, if you have any, and list their side effects.
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...ganic-brain-disorders/prognosis-and-duration/


I'm only on ADs and I don't know what type of brain injury I have. I will make myself phone Welfare on Monday. I meant to go in to the office today but forgot. I thought there was little point in phoning on a Friday afternoon.
The form has tear marks on it. I looked at it yesterday to see if I could make a start. I didn't get far.
My biggest problem so far is I don't see anyone in the care profession, that was all done years ago and I've been left to get on with it for the last few yrs so I don't know what to put there to start with


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'm only on ADs and I don't know what type of brain injury I have. I will make myself phone Welfare on Monday. I meant to go in to the office today but forgot. I thought there was little point in phoning on a Friday afternoon.
> The form has tear marks on it. I looked at it yesterday to see if I could make a start. I didn't get far.
> My biggest problem so far is I don't see anyone in the care profession, that was all done years ago and I've been left to get on with it for the last few yrs so I don't know what to put there to start with


You must see your doctor from time to time? Also the links I gave state that 2/3 of people with a moderate head injury never work again, so at least the DWP recognise that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 22, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'm only on ADs and I don't know what type of brain injury I have. I will make myself phone Welfare on Monday. I meant to go in to the office today but forgot. I thought there was little point in phoning on a Friday afternoon.
> The form has tear marks on it. I looked at it yesterday to see if I could make a start. I didn't get far.
> My biggest problem so far is I don't see anyone in the care profession, that was all done years ago and I've been left to get on with it for the last few yrs so I don't know what to put there to start with


 
Do you not know what part of your brain was damaged?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2013)

Libertad said:


> ViolentPanda Do you have a comparable pdf for filling out a DLA claim form?


 
Yep. PM me an e-mail addy and I'll send it to you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'm only on ADs and I don't know what type of brain injury I have. I will make myself phone Welfare on Monday. I meant to go in to the office today but forgot. I thought there was little point in phoning on a Friday afternoon.
> The form has tear marks on it. I looked at it yesterday to see if I could make a start. I didn't get far.
> My biggest problem so far is I don't see anyone in the care profession, that was all done years ago and I've been left to get on with it for the last few yrs so I don't know what to put there to start with


 
Your GP and hospital records will contain all the relevant information. Might be worth discussing with your GP how much the surgery will charge to copy the relevant records for you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. PM me an e-mail addy and I'll send it to you.


 
Hasn't the ESA form been changed a bit?  Have you got the updated advice thing from B&W?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hasn't the ESA form been changed a bit? Have you got the updated advice thing from B&W?


 
I made sure I downloaded the latest revised editions.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Do you not know what part of your brain was damaged?


 
I'd guess the front bit as that'll be the bit that hit something(steering wheel?) at 40mph(roughly). I don't know what's wrong with my shoulder either apart from a bit of collar bone missing 
VP, I did pm you you didn't I?? I haven't looked at my email today though duh!!

I did, you did, thank you


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 23, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'd guess the front bit as that'll be the bit that hit something(steering wheel?) at 40mph(roughly). I don't know what's wrong with my shoulder either apart from a bit of collar bone missing
> VP, I did pm you you didn't I?? I haven't looked at my email today though duh!!


 
and are there no reports from when you first had the accident?


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and are there no reports from when you first had the accident?


There must be but I don't know where. I know Ninewells(hospital) lost my paperwork for me being there. I think I burned all the paperwork I had when the claim got settled, it was therapeutic. I will phone doc, there must be something in my notes and if there isn't I'll simply go apeshit 
I know I saw someone at Royal Vic(brain related), and I did tests there, and a consultant about my shoulder. The only name I remember is Mr Gentleman(seriously) but I don't remember who he was!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 23, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> There must be but I don't know where. I know Ninewells(hospital) lost my paperwork for me being there. I think I burned all the paperwork I had when the claim got settled, it was therapeutic. I will phone doc, there must be something in my notes and if there isn't I'll simply go apeshit
> I know I saw someone at Royal Vic(brain related), and I did tests there, and a consultant about my shoulder. The only name I remember is Mr Gentleman(seriously) but I don't remember who he was!


 
It looks like Mr Douglas Gentleman could be the one (consultant in Neurosurgery)

http://www.nhstayside.scot.nhs.uk/services/cbir/cbirindex.shtml


----------



## Libertad (Feb 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. PM me an e-mail addy and I'll send it to you.


 
Thanks VP.
Could you sharpen this entrenching tool for me as well please?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 23, 2013)

Libertad said:


> <snip>Could you sharpen this entrenching tool for me as well please?


How did you know that VP finds sharpening things to be very therapeutic?


----------



## Libertad (Feb 23, 2013)

Greebo said:


> How did you know that VP finds sharpening things to be very therapeutic?


 
I can see your house from here.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

eta:  Sorry, just realised that's the same one I posted up weeks ago


----------



## spirals (Feb 25, 2013)

Fucks sake, got my DLA renewal form today and I still haven't heard back from my medical in august for ESA


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

spirals said:


> Fucks sake, got my DLA renewal form today and I still haven't heard back from my medical in august for ESA


 
better hurry up then because loads more people are trying to get DLA 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-Rush-handouts-weeks-theyre-phased-out.html


----------



## toggle (Feb 25, 2013)

of course, they completely ignore the alternative explanation. DLA has always been underclaimed, cause a lot of people were in a position of being able to cope without the added stress of claiming it. now there's more and more fnancial pressure piling on, they need all the help they can get. but ph no, the mail has to try to claim ti's all about getting easy money.

cunts


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

toggle said:


> of course, they completely ignore the alternative explanation. DLA has always been underclaimed, cause a lot of people were in a position of being able to cope without the added stress of claiming it. now there's more and more fnancial pressure piling on, they need all the help they can get. but ph no, the mail has to try to claim ti's all about getting easy money.
> 
> cunts


 
One of the comments says it's the most fiddled benefit, when it's in fact the least fiddled

and 70% on lifetime awards?  Let's not forget the fact that they're no longer called lifetime awards anyway


----------



## spirals (Feb 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> better hurry up then because loads more people are trying to get DLA
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...es-Rush-handouts-weeks-theyre-phased-out.html


 
I'm not reading that, I'll cry


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 25, 2013)

spirals said:


> I'm not reading that, I'll cry


 
You should do, if only to uprate the comments section.  The most uprated ones are the ones slating the article


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 25, 2013)

I thought I posted earlier  Phoned Doc and WR, someone should phone to come and see me to help fill in form in the next couple of days, it's not WR anymore it's financial something or other. Doc says there is a note of ABI on medical notes and I can go and see them(notes) or ask a few questions which they will look up for me.

A lady from the financial whatsit is coming to help me do the form 12th March  Suppose I better try and look at it again and jot rough notes.
I take it scanning the form so I have a copy is a given and proof of posting or recorded delivery for sending it back folks??


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 26, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I thought I posted earlier  Phoned Doc and WR, someone should phone to come and see me to help fill in form in the next couple of days, it's not WR anymore it's financial something or other. Doc says there is a note of ABI on medical notes and I can go and see them(notes) or ask a few questions which they will look up for me.
> 
> A lady from the financial whatsit is coming to help me do the form 12th March  Suppose I better try and look at it again and jot rough notes.
> I take it scanning the form so I have a copy is a given and proof of posting or recorded delivery for sending it back folks??


 
*Definitely* take copies of the form, and get proof of posting and if you don't want the Post Office to open it, mark it Private/Confidential (I forgot to do that)


----------



## kittyP (Feb 26, 2013)

Still waiting for my second assessment questionnaire from atos (the first one got "accidentally" ripped up) but ESA have been informed we have not received one yet 

I am wondering whether we/I would be entitled to DLA. 
We just cannot live on the ESA in any way. 

But both of us just feel so sick of and defeted by the whole situation already, my mental health issues aside, I don't know if I can face anymore. 
. 
I guess that's what they rely on huh?


----------



## kittyP (Feb 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Definitely take copies of the form, and get proof of posting and if you don't want the Post Office to open it, mark it Private/Confidential (I forgot to do that)



Why would the post office open it?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 26, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Why would the post office open it?


 
They have trusted PO employees who open them


----------



## kittyP (Feb 28, 2013)

Ok, sorry if this is too much information but I thought it might be best posted in here too. 
Should I get Badgers to write a supporting statement to go with the ESA50 form? 
C&Ped from another thread. 



> I was reading in the guide about statements from people who know you personally and that they can help as long as that person does not contradict anything written on the form and is brutally honest.
> I am thinking of him saying stuff like that I often drop to the floor crying and rocking with my fingers in my ears and that has happened in the kitchen where it is dangerous. Running and hiding in the bedroom unable to talk.
> Self harm  that he has seen the effects after the event.
> The fact that I am unable to go anywhere with out him or my mum (who lives in Kent) when he is not available to come with me.
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 28, 2013)

I would


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP You should perhaps also consider making a claim for DLA.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 28, 2013)

Libertad said:


> kittyP You should perhaps also consider making a claim for DLA.


 
1 thing at a time. This form needs to be with them by Tuesday so I don't want to get the benefit stopped by it not getting to them on time. 
Do you apply for DLA separately?
I a =m still technically employed as well, dunno if that has a bearing on it?


----------



## kittyP (Feb 28, 2013)

I have also just looked at the actual ESA50 form (printed from the DWP website) and it is different to the guidelines that I have but only slightly. 
The sections are numbered differently and it says there should be a section 20 to say if you have filled it in on someone else's behalf and that isn't there on the form I have. 
Now I am worried I have the wrong sodding form


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

DLA is a separate claim. Your employment status(or your partner's) does not affect your eligibility to DLA.


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## kittyP (Feb 28, 2013)

Libertad said:


> DLA is a separate claim. Your employment status(or your partner's) does not affect your eligibility to DLA.


 
I will get this done first. 
Is it like with the ESA you give them a call and ask them about your eligibility?


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I have also just looked at the actual ESA50 form (printed from the DWP website) and it is different to the guidelines that I have but only slightly.
> The sections are numbered differently and it says there should be a section 20 to say if you have filled it in on someone else's behalf and that isn't there on the form I have.
> Now I am worried I have the wrong sodding form


 
Hold on kittyP You may need a little help from ViolentPanda Ask nicely cos it's his birthday.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I will get this done first.
> Is it like with the ESA you give them a call and ask them about your eligibility?


 
Ring the Benefits Enquiry Line on 0800 882 200. No need to ask them about your eligibility, get the form first. You then have six weeks to fill it in.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 28, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> friend's assessment seemed to go OK this morning - we had decided not to be too unco-operative (so I didn't take written notes)
> 
> slightly difficult, as he couldn't remember what he'd put on his form (some months ago) and hadn't taken a copy
> 
> ...


 
An update following the 'medical' on 9 January - friend got a letter this morning to the effect he's in the "support group" which is somewhat more than I expected.

Thanks again for the advice and support.

I think this may add weight to the argument that it's worth taking someone with you who can nudge you into telling them more about things.

There is a tendency when asked about health related things either to adopt a 'mustn't grumble' approach and try to gloss things over, or to be reluctant to mention things.  Both are not constructive when it comes to persuading someone that you're not well.

And some of the questions are quite subtle trick questions - one question was something like "what would you have done if we'd rung up this morning to postpone the medical?" - most people would be very British and polite about it and said it's not a problem, but since one of the criteria you can score points for is the ability to cope with things being changed, it is part of the assessment, and in some cases it's valid to say you'd not have been able to deal with it.



kittyP said:


> 1 thing at a time. This form needs to be with them by Tuesday so I don't want to get the benefit stopped by it not getting to them on time.
> 
> Do you apply for DLA separately?
> 
> I a =m still technically employed as well, dunno if that has a bearing on it?


 
Yes, DLA is claimed separately.  More about DLA here.  It's not means tested, and it's not relevant whether you're working or not.

It does say you have to have had whatever condition it is for 3 months or more, and be likely to have it for another 6 months at least (i.e. it is intended for long term conditions.)

I agree one thing at a time, though.

Best of luck with the form.


----------



## toggle (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> 1 thing at a time. This form needs to be with them by Tuesday so I don't want to get the benefit stopped by it not getting to them on time.
> Do you apply for DLA separately?
> I a =m still technically employed as well, dunno if that has a bearing on it?


 
not at all.

DLA is seperate and is not means tested or reliant on employment status.

and apply asap.

i think the deadline for getting dla rather than pip is soon


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I have also just looked at the actual ESA50 form (printed from the DWP website) and it is different to the guidelines that I have but only slightly.
> The sections are numbered differently and it says there should be a section 20 to say if you have filled it in on someone else's behalf and that isn't there on the form I have.
> Now I am worried I have the wrong sodding form


 
Right. you need different, totally up-to-date guides to go with the ESA form you downloaded (the form is fine), which is the very latest update.

Just e-mailed them to you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Ring the Benefits Enquiry Line on 0800 882 200. No need to ask them about your eligibility, get the form first. You then have six weeks to fill it in.


 
And you should beat the application deadline (before the PIP switch) because you'll have requested the form before the deadline.


----------



## kittyP (Feb 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right. you need different, totally up-to-date guides to go with the ESA form you downloaded (the form is fine), which is the very latest update.
> 
> Just e-mailed them to you.


 
Thank youx x x


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Thank youx x x


 
No problem. Happy to be of help!


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm having a medical.   got the pissing letter today. 


I don't even get any fucking money. What use are NI credits anyway?


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## WouldBe (Mar 1, 2013)

Word of warning.

If you're on JSA and go back on ESA then as soon as you phone up to request an ESA form your JSA is closed automatically which will leave you with no money until you manage to fill the form in, get it back to them and they get of their useless arses and do something about it.


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## Greebo (Mar 1, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I'm having a medical.  got the pissing letter today.
> 
> 
> I don't even get any fucking money. What use are NI credits anyway?


Not enough NI payments or credits, no pension (except for pensioner's credit).


----------



## toggle (Mar 1, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Not enough NI payments or credits, no pension (except for pensioner's credit).


 
i got a letter a few months agoi sayinf i had 13 years worth of them,. Not entirely sure how i've managed that, but i'm guyessing it's the credits for being the one to claim child benefit thing.


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## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm going to apply for DLA. I've been in tears since I got the fucking post so fuck it. I might as well apply for something that would actually give me money. 

Where do I start? Any of you helpful people got guides, please? - specifically for fluctuations I guess.


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## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Not enough NI payments or credits, no pension (except for pensioner's credit).


That's what I thought. 

And I've used up my contributions year of ESA (obviously) and it doesn't look like maternity allowance or whatever is paid if you're ill to start with.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 1, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I'm going to apply for DLA. I've been in tears since I got the fucking post so fuck it. I might as well apply for something that would actually give me money.
> 
> Where do I start? Any of you helpful people got guides, please? - specifically for fluctuations I guess.


 
Are you subscribed to B&W website?   If not, if you PM your email address, I can probably forward the guides (assuming I can get into B&W as I'm always forgetting password)


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## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

I'm not. Will pm thanks (and no rush, I've been meaning to do this for years).


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## Ganji (Mar 1, 2013)

Ello again folks,
First i appologize for the time it's taken for me to reply. I got pretty down in the dumps and just couldn't get motivated.
Thanks for all the replies  and nooo i'm not as much trouble as Firky, That would take some serious effort 
I sent in my apeal not long after making my first post which they recieved on the 18th of Jan but i've not heard anything back from them as yet. I managed to get some copies of hospital letters to send with the form aswell as writting god knows how many page's to go with it. I'm waiting on all my notes from the hospital which cost a lot less than i thought it would but i shall forward that on when i recieve it. On the day i was due to post the apeal i recieved a letter from the hospital to tell me that my crohns had spread again and that they wanted to do more surgeries. So that was pretty good timing. 
When i originally  sent my claim form i forgot to photocopy all the stuff i sent. I stated that a home assessment would be needed as public transport is a no no. It  seemed they just binned it all n chucked my claim on the get fkt pile. They didn't give any reasons for why i didn't qualify in the letter recieved or the phone call 2 or 3 days before christmas day. All it/ they said was your benefit is changing to ESA and you need to attend the work related support group.
This time i kept copies of everything sent. It's a joke enit and the amount of grief it's caused people all over the country is just sickening. Some of the things i've read about Atos are terrible and i would say go against human rights but thats just my thinking.
When and if they call me in for a medical or anything i'll take my mrs with me who has to do everything for me. I don't have anybody else to take. Over the past few years i've gradually just got myself deeper and deeper into a rut and stay in the house. I have absolutely no contact with people outside my home. Apart from when i go to the chemist/ doctors or speak with online friends.
2 Days before i was due for the first of the work related support group meeting they phoned to rearrange as the advisor i was meant to see was off sick lol. I told them there was no way i'd have got to it anyway and the same will happen with the next one too as they expect me to travel on public transport to another town. To which they replied "Ok but you'll have to take that up with the advisor when you meet and hung up. They're all a joke enit.
Again i appologize for the legnth of time it took for me to reply.
Thanks for your replies!


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## kittyP (Mar 1, 2013)

Oh dear Ganji, that sounds awful 

Does anyone here know what happens at these Work Related Activities group things? 

I am going to stress that I need a home assessment as attempting to attend a medical would definitely cause a massive panic attack, In fact, even having it at home is likely to cause one, I can't get public transport and we have no money for cabs. 

I don't think, as things stand, I would be able to attend a work activitiy thingy either .

I need to fill this form in like a depressed anxious fucking Ninja


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

My experience of WRAG was quite simple. I had to go to the job centre for a interview with my personal adviser. I had to briefly explain my illness and how it affects me. The idea is to make an Action Plan! Which is basically a load of shit. I think the idea is that she would point me at education /volunteering to get me work ready. Obvs not going to happen.  but my Open Action Items (the stuff you agree to do) basically said I wasn't well enough to do anything and everything was irrelevant (but in her words not mine). Then just before my year of contributions ran out I had a other personal adviser meeting where we established that I don't need to do anything or come back as I'm not getting any money so I can't be forced to do anything. 

I actually got the impression that it was just box ticking and plenty of people they deal with should really be in the support group. But at the same time they are the people who send to work programmes so fuckers all the same. 

I'll scan in my action plan later and put it up here if I can remove all personal details.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 1, 2013)

But kittyP don't stress that bit yet! You may well be able to ninja out of it.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 1, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> My experience of WRAG was quite simple. I had to go to the job centre for a interview with my personal adviser. I had to briefly explain my illness and how it affects me. The idea is to make an Action Plan! Which is basically a load of shit. I think the idea is that she would point me at education /volunteering to get me work ready. Obvs not going to happen.  but my Open Action Items (the stuff you agree to do) basically said I wasn't well enough to do anything and everything was irrelevant (but in her words not mine). Then just before my year of contributions ran out I had a other personal adviser meeting where we established that I don't need to do anything or come back as I'm not getting any money so I can't be forced to do anything.
> 
> I actually got the impression that it was just box ticking and plenty of people they deal with should really be in the support group. But at the same time they are the people who send to work programmes so fuckers all the same.
> 
> I'll scan in my action plan later and put it up here if I can remove all personal details.


 
Ah OK? Thanks


----------



## kittyP (Mar 1, 2013)

Another quick question about the return address for the Capability for work Questionnaire? 

We have one envelope that has the return address as Wembly SW95 9EB, and another which says Glasgow G90.
Anyone know which is the correct address? 
I don't want to end up sending it to the wrong place. 

Form is almost completed with just one bit to do tomorrow morning as Badgers hand is too cramped from writing to carry on.


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## toggle (Mar 1, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Oh dear Ganji, that sounds awful
> 
> Does anyone here know what happens at these Work Related Activities group things?
> 
> ...


 
home assessment and recording.

you will likely need med evidence to proove you need a home assessment, some gps will help some won't. I don't know what ours said about bakunin, but considering he called up at 8pm or so to let us know it had been sent off, and he got given a home assessment, I'm assuming he was quite vigarous in stating how loopy bakunin is.

if you feel yourself having a panic attack, then let it happen, don't fight it. if you have a recording of you having that even for a home assessment, it will destroy any case they might have that you are fit for work.


----------



## Ganji (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't know he they decide if you need a home assessment. I don't think they know either as when i was assessed 12 years ago they came out to my home without me even requesting a home assessment. You really need to think about what you say in those forms don't you as it's like they're trying to catch you out with trick questions. It was really bad timing when i recieved my form as i'd just moved doctors and couldn't get hold of any evidence to send with it. That was perfect for Atos though 
I thought that by me turning up to the the meeting with the advisor would just be giving them more amunition against me as they'd probably say i'm fit enough to get there then i'm fit enough to work. I take it thats not the case?


----------



## toggle (Mar 1, 2013)

if you turn up on your own looking half decent this is counted as being able to do so always, they won't consider the costs of getting there, that this may have taken you a month to recover from


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## kittyP (Mar 1, 2013)

toggle said:


> if you turn up on your own looking half decent this is counted as being able to do so always, they won't consider the costs of getting there, that this may have taken you a month to recover from


 
 I don't go anywhere by myself and always look as crazy as I bloody feel at the moment so that aint gonna happen.

I am just worried that they won't give me a home assessment and I will just not be able to get out the door to the appointment due to sheer terror and then be seen as just having not turned up. 

What would happen that circumstance?


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## tufty79 (Mar 1, 2013)

ask your gp to write to them requesting a home assessment; i'm fairly sure they refused me one without gp backup (which i didn't get).
when i couldn't attend a medical because the person coming with me cancelled last minute and i couldn't go on my own, it got marked as 'transport problems' 
i *think* i was told it could only be rearranged a certain number of times as well.
i'll post about my experience of the wrag tomorrow - it's a lot more positive. if that helps.


----------



## Ganji (Mar 1, 2013)

toggle said:


> if you turn up on your own looking half decent this is counted as being able to do so always, they won't consider the costs of getting there, that this may have taken you a month to recover from


Cheers! yeah i think i read that earlier on in the thread. Its comes to something when just looking half decent makes you fit for work. The sytem is crazy nowdays enit.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 1, 2013)

Ganji said:


> Cheers! yeah i think i read that earlier on in the thread. Its comes to something when just looking half decent makes you fit for work. The sytem is crazy nowdays enit.


Definitely. Most people will do their best to turn up no matter what cost to them in terms of a relapse, not realising this could count against them.


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 1, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Right. you need different, totally up-to-date guides to go with the ESA form you downloaded (the form is fine), which is the very latest update.
> 
> Just e-mailed them to you.


 
Any chance I could have them too?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 2, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Any chance I could have them too?


Of course.  VP'll probably send them late tomorrow morning - you'll need to PM him an email address.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Any chance I could have them too?


 
No problem. Just PM me an e-mail address. Do you want just the ESA ones, or the DLA ones too?


----------



## kittyP (Mar 2, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> ask your gp to write to them requesting a home assessment; i'm fairly sure they refused me one without gp backup (which i didn't get).
> when i couldn't attend a medical because the person coming with me cancelled last minute and i couldn't go on my own, it got marked as 'transport problems'
> i *think* i was told it could only be rearranged a certain number of times as well.
> i'll post about my experience of the wrag tomorrow - it's a lot more positive. if that helps.


 
I think my GP would if I asked him. 
Thing is though, can they write to them separately to the form being posted because I am not going to get an appointment before the form has to be sent.


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## tufty79 (Mar 2, 2013)

i'll see if i can find out x


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## kittyP (Mar 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> No problem. Just PM me an e-mail address. Do you want just the ESA ones, or the DLA ones too?


 
Violent Panda. Savior of the sick!


----------



## purenarcotic (Mar 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> No problem. Just PM me an e-mail address. Do you want just the ESA ones, or the DLA ones too?


 
Both would be grand if that's okay.  Not for me, but might be useful during my placement. Ta very much.


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## tufty79 (Mar 2, 2013)

http://www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/before_your_assessment


> Requesting a home visit
> Atos Healthcare assessments are usually completed at an Assessment Centre although our healthcare professionals will identify those people who are unable to travel because of their medical condition and a home visit is then offered.
> However, if you consider, because of your medical condition, you cannot travel please contact us as soon as possible. Our healthcare professionals will then consider all available information. It is likely we will ask you to obtain some supporting information from a medical professional who is treating you to confirm this.


i think give them a call and double check, but it sounds like you don't need a gp letter with the form when you first send it in - just to make atos aware asap that you're requesting a home visit, and then send in evidence if/when they ask for it.


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## kittyP (Mar 2, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> http://www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/before_your_assessment
> 
> i think give them a call and double check, but it sounds like you don't need a gp letter with the form when you first send it in - just to make atos aware asap that you're requesting a home visit, and then send in evidence if/when they ask for it.


 
Cheers honey. 
I'll get badgers to drop them a call Monday x


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## Ganji (Mar 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> No problem. Just PM me an e-mail address. Do you want just the ESA ones, or the DLA ones too?


Thanks very much. Its much apreciated


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 4, 2013)

Atos profits (just to get you even angrier)



> FIT-TO-WORK testers Atos are making record profits while running shambolic medical assessments of disabled people on benefits.
> Yesterday, Labour’s Tom Greatrex said the Coalition should be claiming money back from the French IT firm because of the mess they have made of the dreaded work capability tests.
> 
> The MP for Rutherglen and Hamilton West spoke out after the company announced a 36 per cent increase in profits for 2012.
> ...


 


> The official added: “We have worked with the DWP for over a decade and our contract with them represents less than two per cent of our revenue.”


 
So rich enough to be taking a cut or paying some of it back for all their wrong assessments

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-vents-fury-over-1724041


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## Ganji (Mar 7, 2013)

Ello folks
It seems things are looking up my end atleast. The DWP recieved my appeal on the 18th Jan and i'd heard nothing untill today when i recieved a letter from them.

"Thankyou for your appeal.
We have considered the appeal and any new evidence recieved and decided to change  the decision.
You will be subject to a further work  capability assessment in 18 months.
You have been awarded the support group component.
Your papers have been passed to our benefit section for reassessment, and you will hear from us in due course.
Your appeal will not be sent to an independant tribunal as the decision has been changed in your favour."

As you can probably imagine this is such a massive relief 
I found an article the other day about the DWP and ATOS http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/labour-mp-vents-fury-over-1724041
It looks like they maybe getting the shake up thats needed. Hopefully!

Cheers folks


----------



## ddraig (Mar 7, 2013)

nice one


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Fantastic news Ganji


----------



## RedDragon (Mar 7, 2013)

Well done.


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## Greebo (Mar 7, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Violent Panda. Savior of the sick!


Nice of you to say so, but his main motivation is to do what he can to make the benefits labyrinth a bit easier for others than it was for him.  

IMHO nobody should have to go through this stress and red tape when your time and energy would be better spent on recovery or at least stabilising whatever you (in general) live with and coming to terms with it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 7, 2013)

good news Ganji


----------



## Bungle73 (Mar 7, 2013)

Just got my form today.  I thought you were supposed to have 6 weeks to return it, but they want it back by the 5th of April. 

I'm definitely going to need some help filling it in.

Anyway, are they still taking months and months to get round to dealing with you?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

Bungle73 said:


> Just got my form today. I thought you were supposed to have 6 weeks to return it, but they want it back by the 5th of April.
> 
> I'm definitely going to need some help filling it in.
> 
> Anyway, are they still taking months and months to get round to dealing with you?


 
No, reduced it to a month. I think the new PIP form return time has also been reduced to a month 

Think it took them 3 months to sort friend's.


----------



## Badgers (Mar 7, 2013)

Ours went off special delivery in time for their deadline. However it is hanging over kittyP a bit like a cloud  which coupled with medication changes, CMHT appointments and prescription renewals is pretty exhausting.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

They just have now idea how fucking stressful the wait is


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 7, 2013)

http://www.ekklesia.co.uk/node/18118



> "ATOS incompetence: 'When did you catch autism?'"


 


> "Quote from ATOS Work Capability Assessment: 'And how long have you had Down’s Syndrome?'"


----------



## kittyP (Mar 7, 2013)

C&Ped from the Mental health thread. Sorry.

Wasn't able to get to my CMHT CPN appointment today. 
Was so out of it from medication earlier and just soooo worried about the ATOS shit. 
I feel like I am not allowed to feel better until they have assessed me. 
Badgers spoke to them CPN on the phone though and he told me to reduce the Qutiepine back down to the dose I was on before Monday and call them this Monday coming to let them know how I have been. 

I just can't face leaving the house atm in case I am found fit for work. 
It's so confusing and upsetting.


----------



## _angel_ (Mar 7, 2013)

I'm worrying already about James' DLA reassessment when hes 16.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 7, 2013)

_angel_ said:
			
		

> I'm worrying already about James' DLA reassessment when hes 16.



How old is he now? 
You don't have to say.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 11, 2013)

Q. Could you learn to operate a washing machine?

Is "No, because I'm a bloke." a valid answer?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Q. Could you learn to operate a washing machine?
> 
> Is "No, because I'm a bloke." a valid answer?


 


I told them himself doesn't know the difference between the washer and dryer.  It's the truth


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Q. Could you learn to operate a washing machine?
> 
> Is "No, because I'm a bloke." a valid answer?


 
Surely it would depend on how complicated it is? I'm dreading having to get anything new   I still haven't got to grips with my 'new' phone. A basic nokia that I've had since end of summer last year.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Surely it would depend on how complicated it is? I'm dreading having to get anything new  I still haven't got to grips with my 'new' phone. A basic nokia that I've had since end of summer last year.


 
I hate Nokia.  

He loves the new Samsung I got him.  Maybe you should give that a whirl


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 11, 2013)

This is rather worrying  



> *The coalition’s programme to replace disability living allowance (DLA) with a new benefit has been thrown into confusion after the government’s own telephone helpline advisers began passing out-of-date information to anxious claimants.*
> The Conservative minister for disabled people, Esther McVey, promised MPs in December that no current claimants of disability living allowance (DLA) with “lifetime” or “indefinite” awards would face reassessments for the new personal independence payment (PIP) before October 2015, unless they reported a change in their condition.
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I hate Nokia.
> 
> He loves the new Samsung I got him. Maybe you should give that a whirl


 
I tried a samsung years ago and gave it back to pogofish some months later(6/7) Stuck to nokia ever since. It's very basic too, just not my 1100.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 12, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I'm dreading having to get anything new  I still haven't got to grips with my 'new' phone. A basic nokia that I've had since end of summer last year.


 I still haven't got used to the freesat I got 18 months ago.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 13, 2013)

So this morning I got another letter from ATOS telling me they need my questionnaire back urgently.  It was sent 9 days before the thing is due back!!
Is this the start of them being hassling pricks??  Did this happen to anyone else? The thing is written, scanned and going back tomorrow, when I force myself to go into town.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So this morning I got another letter from ATOS telling me they need my questionnaire back urgently.  It was sent 9 days before the thing is due back!!
> Is this the start of them being hassling pricks??  Did this happen to anyone else? The thing is written, scanned and going back tomorrow, when I force myself to go into town.


 
Didn't you send it recorded delivery/signed for?


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## Greebo (Mar 13, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So this morning I got another letter from ATOS telling me they need my questionnaire back urgently.  It was sent 9 days before the thing is due back!!
> Is this the start of them being hassling pricks??  Did this happen to anyone else? The thing is written, scanned and going back tomorrow, when I force myself to go into town.


What you need to understand about the DWP, and by extension ATOS, is that any timing is for their convenience not yours.

They will take their own sweet time (and more) while metaphorically tapping their feet impatiently at you for not filling in and returning something the moment you've opened the envelope.

Don't take it personally (everyone gets more or less the same experience), this is a result of bureaucratic cock up, not conspiracy.


----------



## 8115 (Mar 13, 2013)

Could they have crossed in the post?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 13, 2013)

Greebo said:


> What you need to understand about the DWP, and by extension ATOS, is that any timing is for their convenience not yours.
> 
> They will take their own sweet time (and more) while metaphorically tapping their feet impatiently at you for not filling in and returning something the moment you've opened the envelope.
> 
> Don't take it personally (everyone gets more or less the same experience), this is a result of bureaucratic cock up, not conspiracy.


 
Indeed.

Sending you a letter requiring a new doctor's note a day or so before the deadline for getting it back, then stopping your benefit because you didn't send it back in time, is nothing that unusual...


----------



## Greebo (Mar 13, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> <snip>Sending you a letter requiring a new doctor's note a day or so before the deadline for getting it back, then stopping your benefit because you didn't send it back in time, is nothing that unusual...


Liked because you're right.  It shouldn't be this way, but it is.


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 13, 2013)

Sorry everyone, I meant they are harassing me 9 days before the form is even due back!! I'm not going to take it personally but it doesn't give me any faith in them being able to assess me if they can't even wait for the due date before harassing  I've asked for a home visit too.
I don't seem to be doing well at writing what's in my head today. I read the form at least twice and I'm sure I've forgotten something.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Sorry everyone, I meant they are harassing me 9 days before the form is even due back!! I'm not going to take it personally but it doesn't give me any faith in them being able to assess me if they can't even wait for the due date before harassing  I've asked for a home visit too.
> I don't seem to be doing well at writing what's in my head today. I read the form at least twice and I'm sure I've forgotten something.


 
You need to write something down the minute you minute you think of it, even if you're on public transport, get it written on your phone or something, as all these little things add up and are important.

And FFS, you should have told them you're stressed out enough filling it in, without them hassling you


----------



## Greebo (Mar 13, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> <snip>And FFS, you should have told them you're stressed out enough filling it in, without them hassling you


Agreed - it's extra "information" of your current state.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 13, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Agreed - it's extra "information" of your current state.


 
Yeah, tell them it put you in such a panic, you weren't able to think straight


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 13, 2013)

should I just write that on the envelope then? Please refrain from harassment, it does help? Or should I open it and add a wee letter? 

I'm not very confident about this because the lady that filled it in just pretty much wrote what I was saying and I was all jumbled and stuff. I thought she would sort of sort it out and use jargon or key words or something. I had to correct some stuff too. She didn't spell abrupt properly either. I know that might sound snotty but I had spelling drummed into me when I was younger.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 13, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> should I just write that on the envelope then? Please refrain from harassment, it does help? Or should I open it and add a wee letter?


Open the envelope and add an extra sheet (for the letter), with your full name and NI etc at the top of it, as well as the questions to which it is relevant. eg "As previously stated in answer to questions d, g, x, and z, my condition becomes worse under stress, to the extent that it exacerbated my inability to concentrate and made it far more difficult to fill this form in on time."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 14, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So this morning I got another letter from ATOS telling me they need my questionnaire back urgently.  It was sent 9 days before the thing is due back!!
> Is this the start of them being hassling pricks??  Did this happen to anyone else? The thing is written, scanned and going back tomorrow, when I force myself to go into town.


 
Dopey cunts *always* send the forms out 2nd class, and the chivvying letters 1st class.

Twisted sense of priorities, eh?


----------



## laptop (Mar 15, 2013)

Only remarkable thing about this story, sadly, is where it appears:



> *Blind in one eye, partially deaf and facing major spinal surgery but Thalidomide mother is STILL found fit to work*
> 
> 
> 
> Martine White, of Burnley, Lancashire, who needs a wheelchair to get around, was shocked when officials told her she should not be claiming benefits.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 15, 2013)

laptop said:


> Only remarkable thing about this story, sadly, is where it appears:


 
Some DM comments 



> Steven Hawkins works doesn't he? That is all.
> - Riley01, Portsmouth, 15/3/2013 17:55
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Some DM comments


Comments like that really piss me off. They are clearly from people who've never had a serious illness themselves, who've never felt betrayed by their lack of physical ability. 

Where do they think all these jobs come from, what 'internet work' should this woman do? 

And I bet Stephen Hawking doesn't work full time either.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Some DM comments


 
Those comments - Aw c'mon, is this how the cut of the jib of these people looks? How can one even attempt to engage with people such as those? The _stupid_ bastards don't even realise once civilisation in the form of social security is dismantled it'll be them and their kids who'll suffer. The gig is fucked, we're all sunk - And whatever dickhead civilisation ends up evolving from the ashes will probably end up in a thousand years resenting whatever social security system they ever end up having in place as well.

Somebody somewhere have mercy _please_.

Get me out of this shit - Otherwise "Drink til you're dead, Dr Dick said" seems like the only sensible advice - I resent having to do that if that ends up being the case, but a long drawn out death from cirrhosis seems an infinitely better option than watching the frog being boiled.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Comments like that really piss me off. They are clearly from people who've never had a serious illness themselves, who've never felt betrayed by their lack of physical ability.
> 
> Where do they think all these jobs come from, what 'internet work' should this woman do?
> 
> And I bet Stephen Hawking doesn't work full time either.


 
and even if Stephen Hawking does work, I bet he's got a carer there with him. He's also probably got plenty of money to pay for a carer


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and even if Stephen Hawking does work, I bet he's got a carer there with him. He's also probably got plenty of money to pay for a carer


I wouldn't be surprised if there are a team of nurses and carers. I don't see the DWP/Atos paying for a team for each person that needs them - leaving aside the whole issue of suitable employment opportunities.

Lots of people want to work, does every employer really employ people with disabilities?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 16, 2013)

AFAIK in the last documentary I remember which showed Stephen Hawking at Oxford, he had a team of 8 or so assorted nurses and personal assistants -  that sounds a lot until you bear in mind that he's a dead weight to lift, you can't employ people to do 12 hour shifts longterm, and a nurse shouldn't really be asked to fetch and carry as well as all the nursing-related tasks.



equationgirl said:


> <snip>Lots of people want to work, does every employer really employ people with disabilities?


Given that I was sent away from one interview for having the gall to take migraine-specific painkillers with the water which was offered (no I couldn't have waited - another half hour and they'd have come straight back up), I doubt it.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2013)

flyboy said:


> Somebody mentioned a mental health thread last page. Can anybody throw us a link please?
> 
> Did a search but couldn't see owt. Need some advice on a few things tbf.<snip>


The reason you can't find the mental health thread is that it's in a section for more established members. You don't have to have been here for years, it's to prevent the more sensitive matters from showing up on google.

For the same reason, neither I nor anyone else can give you a link as you wouldn't be able to read or post anything there yet; I think the minimum is 20 days and 50 posts?


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2013)

flyboy said:


> Fair enough you'll be seeing me soon
> 
> I'll be back


Might I suggest that you get your post count up on the word association thread in the general forum?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 17, 2013)

flyboy said:


> Fair enough you'll be seeing me soon
> 
> I'll be back


 
See you soon Arnie


----------



## Greebo (Mar 17, 2013)

flyboy said:


> Fair enough you'll be seeing me soon
> 
> I'll be back


You do that.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 19, 2013)

It's the way at the medical, as well as coming to fetch you from the waiting area to 'build rapport' and watch if you struggle to move, they also walk too fast which it's really difficult to hurry but also the fire doors are really heavy so try and catch up for that as well. 

Tldr: entrapment really. 



Ugh.  Had mine today.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 19, 2013)

How long roughly til people hear back from ATOS after sending off the work assessment? 

I am not really holding out any hope any more for being found unfit for work 
I guess I will just have to keep leaning on mum and dad and fill holes in my NI at another time in the future when I am/if I am better. And it really feels like fucking "if" rather than "when" atm


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> How long roughly til people hear back from ATOS after sending off the work assessment?
> 
> I am not really holding out any hope any more for being found unfit for work
> I guess I will just have to keep leaning on mum and dad and fill holes in my NI at another time in the future when I am/if I am better. And it really feels like fucking "if" rather than "when" atm


 
I can't remember exactly how long mine took, but it wasn't long - I'm sure it was two weeks. I've heard on here of some peoples taking up to six months, but that wasn't the case with me.

Here's hoping you get a result anyway. A result in your favour, obv.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 19, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I can't remember exactly how long mine took, but it wasn't long - I'm sure it was two weeks. I've heard on here of some peoples taking up to six months, but that wasn't the case with me.
> 
> Here's hoping you get a result anyway. A result in your favour, obv.


 
Cheers


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 19, 2013)

Aye, best of luck KittyP


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> How long roughly til people hear back from ATOS after sending off the work assessment?


 
Just under three month wait for the one I sent off


----------



## laptop (Mar 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> How long roughly til people hear back from ATOS after sending off the work assessment?
> 
> I am not really holding out any hope any more for being found unfit for work


 
Prepare for the worst, but also for the proper result.

When the face-to-face thing actually happens, do what people say here. Take someone with you to take copious notes - or have someone come round if you manage to get a home assessment.

Look at the Rethink factsheet: http://www.rethink.org/document.rm?id=10911

It gives the points awarded for specific disabilities/challenges. You may be surprised how quickly they add up.

The note-taker doesn't have to say anything. In fact I've heard tell that a grimly silent, focussed note-taker frightens the assessor


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 20, 2013)

I sent my ESA50 back at the end of November and only got my medical appointment letter several weeks ago. 3 months?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 20, 2013)

Got a letter from the tribunal (first tier) this morning

My appeal is allowed
The decision made on */*/2012 is set aside
I am entitled to ESA with the work related activity component

Then some stuff about descriptors and how long the tribunal reckon it should be before the department reassess me.

Great news obviously, *but* reading the rest of the letter, it seems the department are entitled to appeal against the tribunals decision - Are they likely to do this? I've been claiming JSA between failing the medical and now, could the department say well he must be fit for work, he's been signing on as fit for work all this time? I'm worried I could somehow end up entitled to neither ESA nor JSA and be left with no income at all.

Also, what happens next? Do I have to do anything or contact anybody or will it all just happen?

If anyone who's been through this or knows the system could tell me what's likely to happen next I'd be everso grateful.

Anyway thanks to all those who urged me to go ahead and appeal when I said I couldn't be arsed and didn't see the point ViolentPanda equationgirl Greebo Frumious B. Minnie the Minx to name but five.

Ha ha, under the auspices of thanking you, I've tagged you hoping you'll see my post and answer some of my concerns. Sly little twat aren't I?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got a letter from the tribunal (first tier) this morning
> 
> My appeal is allowed
> The decision made on */*/2012 is set aside
> ...


 
The DWP's right to appeal is formula. They include it in every decision, but it probably only gets invoked if your appeal is "novel", i.e. the adjudicator has used an unfamiliar factor in their decision-making.



> Also, what happens next? Do I have to do anything or contact anybody or will it all just happen?


 
As you gave them your details, they should just start paying you, and then send you the WRAG stuff as and when.



> If anyone who's been through this or knows the system could tell me what's likely to happen next I'd be everso grateful.
> 
> Anyway thanks to all those who urged me to go ahead and appeal when I said I couldn't be arsed and didn't see the point ViolentPanda equationgirl Greebo Frumious B. Minnie the Minx to name but five.
> 
> Ha ha, under the auspices of thanking you, I've tagged you hoping you'll see my post and answer some of my concerns. Sly little twat aren't I?


 
You wish!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Ha ha, under the auspices of thanking you, I've tagged you hoping you'll see my post and answer some of my concerns. Sly little twat aren't I?


 


Unfortunately, not sure how that stage works


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 20, 2013)

Cheers mate - So you're saying I should just wait and the DWP will get in touch about paying my ESA in due course?

E2a that's ViolentPanda btw


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Cheers mate - So you're saying I should just wait and the DWP will get in touch about paying my ESA in due course?
> 
> E2a that's ViolentPanda btw


 
They *should* do. You should get one of those formula letters that you get when your JSA goes up, saying that from X date you'll be paid X sum, and the money should just go straight into your bank account/post office card account/whatever.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> They *should* do. You should get one of those formula letters that you get when your JSA goes up, saying that from X date you'll be paid X sum, and the money should just go straight into your bank account/post office card account/whatever.


 
Great stuff, thank you  - The tribunal letter was first class, obviously anything from the DWP is gonna be second class.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Great stuff, thank you  - The tribunal letter was first class, obviously anything from the DWP is gonna be second class.


At least now you'll be able to afford another pair of trainers.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> This is rather worrying


 
Definitely looks like people oN DLA indefinite awards are being pulled in for reassessment before 2015 

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/03/governments-secret-plan-to-strip-claimants-of-dla/


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Definitely looks like people oN DLA indefinite awards are being pulled in for reassessment before 2015
> 
> http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/03/governments-secret-plan-to-strip-claimants-of-dla/


 
Just put this on my Facebook page with the following comment:

So, our beloved Government (seemingly composed largely of expenses fraudsters, crooks and professional liars) have promised they won't be assessing people currently on Disability Living Allowance for the new Personal Independence Payments until 2015. 

They aren't. They're just going to try and steal our money by re-assessing us under the current DLA rules instead

*The new dictionary definition of Parliament: 'A den of thieves, thieves kitchen, residence of more professional crooks than Dartmoor Prison. See also: The most pervasively corrupt institution in British history.'

Where's Guy Fawkes when you need him?*


----------



## toggle (Mar 20, 2013)

thing is hun, i'm not sure if this lot have the right end of the stick.

You were on an indefinate award when you got assessed 2 years ago and still on an indefinate award when you got paperwork (but no date) for reassessment last year.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

toggle said:


> thing is hun, i'm not sure if this lot have the right end of the stick.
> 
> You were on an indefinate award when you got assessed 2 years ago and still on an indefinate award when you got paperwork (but no date) for reassessment last year.


 
Who?


----------



## toggle (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Who?


bakunin


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

toggle said:


> bakunin


 
Oh right, sorry


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Great stuff, thank you  - The tribunal letter was first class, obviously anything from the DWP is gonna be second class.


Nice one on the appeal (even if we made you do it!) 

I doubt the DWP has the time, money or people to appeal except in the most unusual of circumstances as ViolentPanda has said, so I reckon this is a win for you.

The DWP does appear to be taking the huff so to speak if it loses at Tribunal, so if you haven't heard anything from them over the next 2-4 weeks and your money hasn't changed, give them a call or take a copy of your tribunal letter to your next sign-on date and ask when you move onto ESA. It will be on the system somewhere, they just won't have told you about it.

I'm dead pleased for you


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 20, 2013)

Cheers equationgirl 

In your _face_ IDS


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

I'm sure he'll be crying into his weetabix in the morning, Frances Lengel


----------



## toggle (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Oh right, sorry


 
have we been being too subtle recently?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

toggle said:


> have we been being too subtle recently?


 
Nope, I'm just being too lazy to read threads properly


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

laptop said:
			
		

> Prepare for the worst, but also for the proper result.
> 
> When the face-to-face thing actually happens, do what people say here. Take someone with you to take copious notes - or have someone come round if you manage to get a home assessment.
> 
> ...



Thank you. All noted.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Nice one on the appeal (even if we made you do it!)
> 
> I doubt the DWP has the time, money or people to appeal except in the most unusual of circumstances as ViolentPanda has said, so I reckon this is a win for you.
> 
> ...



God this is all so fucked up isn't it? 

I'm totally terrified.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> God this is all so fucked up isn't it?
> 
> I'm totally terrified.


 
Disgusting what this bollocks does to people mentally


----------



## Libertad (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Disgusting what this bollocks does to people mentally


 
It's all really debilitating, it's taken me four days to get to the staples on my DLA form.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Libertad said:


> It's all really debilitating, it's taken me four days to get to the staples on my DLA form.


 
Stapling the form or removing staples?


----------



## Libertad (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Stapling the form or removing staples?


 
Silly Minnie, I meant to get to the middle of the form.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Silly Minnie, I meant to get to the middle of the form.


 
Oh 

Well I thought maybe you were stapling some extra information to the form or removing staples to photocopy it or something 

4 days is impressive!


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

Libertad said:
			
		

> Silly Minnie, I meant to get to the middle of the form.



Ahhh. I thought you meant it took you days to staple some extra info to the form too


----------



## Libertad (Mar 20, 2013)

Reams of extra pages to scan and then staple in so far. That four days is with two of us, after a visit to the local DIAL advisor and the pdf from Benefits and Work that VP kindly sent me.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> Disgusting what this bollocks does to people mentally



I know. 
I feel so stupid and ashamed of myself for being so scared but I can't stopped it.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> The DWP does appear to be taking the huff so to speak if it loses at Tribunal


 
Which is probably why they're currently trying to make it mandatory for claimants to ask the DWP to reconsider decisions before they can actually go to appeal. With the little rider that there'll be no definite time limit on how long it takes for the DWP to even reconsider a decision at all. Experience shows that one DWP decision maker is highly unlikely to reverse another decision maker's decision in he first place, so many claimants will skip asking for a reconsideration and go directly to an appeal.

The Tribunals Service is part of the judiciary and is independent of the DWP (probably accounting for the high levels of decisions overturned on appeal). The party hacks can't be seen to go after the independence of tribunals directly, but what they can do is try making it as hard as possible to actually access the tribunal while then stating in soundbites that they have a complaints and appeals process.

What they won't admit to is that, while there's a complaints and appeals process, asking the DWP for a reconsideration is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas and that they'll do all in their power to ensure that accessing the independent tribunals will be made as difficult as possible.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 20, 2013)

You'll get through all this kitty, lots of help and support here.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know.
> I feel so stupid and ashamed of myself for being so scared but I can't stopped it.


 
The system's designed to make you feel scared and intimidated - There's no shame in feeling the way you are. They _want_ people to crumble and have set the whole gig up accordingly. Try to keep in mind none of this is your fault.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 20, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Disgusting what this bollocks does to people mentally


 
What's more disgusting is that the DWP is fully aware of the damage it does and not only do they not care but they'll actively do their best to grind people down in the hope that they'll give up altogether. They know exactly what effect it has, and it's exactly the effect they're looking for.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> God this is all so fucked up isn't it?
> 
> I'm totally terrified.


Please try not to worry about this kittyP. Are you able to write a brief sentence in your diary about the stress you feel, or rate how terrified/stressed you from 0(no stress about assessment) to 5(extremely stressed about assessment)? The more evidence you can provide the better. 

You are not alone in this.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

Libertad said:
			
		

> You'll get through all this kitty, lots of help and support here.



Thank you x


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Which is probably why they're currently trying to make it mandatory for claimants to ask the DWP to reconsider decisions before they can actually go to appeal. With the little rider that there'll be no definite time limit on how long it takes for the DWP to even reconsider a decision at all. Experience shows that one DWP decision maker is highly unlikely to reverse another decision maker's decision in he first place, so many claimants will skip asking for a reconsideration and go directly to an appeal.
> 
> The Tribunals Service is part of the judiciary and is independent of the DWP (probably accounting for the high levels of decisions overturned on appeal). The party hacks can't be seen to go after the independence of tribunals directly, but what they can do is try making it as hard as possible to actually access the tribunal while then stating in soundbites that they have a complaints and appeals process.
> 
> What they won't admit to is that, while there's a complaints and appeals process, asking the DWP for a reconsideration is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas and that they'll do all in their power to ensure that accessing the independent tribunals will be made as difficult as possible.


Fucking twunts, frankly. They'd best hope none of them end up needing support.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:
			
		

> The system's designed to make you feel scared and intimidated - There's no shame in feeling the way you are. They want people to crumble and have set the whole gig up accordingly. Try to keep in mind none of this is your fault.



I know it's not my fault but it really feels like the effect of all of this on my loved ones is. And that I will be one of those ones that does crumble


----------



## kittyP (Mar 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:
			
		

> Please try not to worry about this kittyP. Are you able to write a brief sentence in your diary about the stress you feel, or rate how terrified/stressed you from 0(no stress about assessment) to 5(extremely stressed about assessment)? The more evidence you can provide the better.
> 
> You are not alone in this.



Thank you. I do type stuff up for my cmht which includes this stuff.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know.
> I feel so stupid and ashamed of myself for being so scared but I can't stopped it.


 
No need to feel that way, it's making a lot of people feel the same


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 20, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Reams of extra pages to scan and then staple in so far. That four days is with two of us, after a visit to the local DIAL advisor and the pdf from Benefits and Work that VP kindly sent me.


 
Hole punching and treasury tags for me.  Already bust one stapler trying to staple too many pages

(Also bust hole punch trying to hole punch too many pages)


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 21, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got a letter from the tribunal (first tier) this morning
> 
> My appeal is allowed
> The decision made on */*/2012 is set aside
> ...


 
What happens next is that the DWP put your case in what the Tribunals Service unofficially refer to as the "win bin". For around 2-3 weeks they will do nothing, and if you contact them they will claim not to have received the paperwork on the decision. In fact the Tribunal will have faxed them the relevant information within 15 minutes of the decision being made. However the bastards at the DWP will make you wait 3-4 weeks before they do anything about it.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 21, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know.
> I feel so stupid and ashamed of myself for being so scared but I can't stopped it.


Nothing to be ashamed about - of course you're scared, this is money you desperately need and you're led to believe that even once your claim's been processed there's no certainty that you'll get it, let alone for how long. Enough to frighten and worry any sensible person.

You should see the state VP's in after he's had to fill in his IB form or DLA form - extremely low and grouchy as well as physically exhausted for at least a week.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 21, 2013)

Greebo said:


> You should see the state VP's in after he's had to fill in his IB form or DLA form - extremely low and grouchy as well as physically exhausted for at least a week.


 
I get very stressed and upset as well, which in turn does the same to Toggle because she hates seeing me like that.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 21, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I get very stressed and upset as well, which in turn does the same to Toggle because she hates seeing me like that.


Hence the existence of this thread.  Being forced to describe (in detail) how your life is ruined and limited by all the things which aren't physically or mentally working is enough to make anyone feel at least miserable for a few days.  

Even if, most of the time, your life's bearable because you've found ways of making it worth living.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 21, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> What happens next is that the DWP put your case in what the Tribunals Service unofficially refer to as the "win bin". For around 2-3 weeks they will do nothing, and if you contact them they will claim not to have received the paperwork on the decision. In fact the Tribunal will have faxed them the relevant information within 15 minutes of the decision being made. However the bastards at the DWP will make you wait 3-4 weeks before they do anything about it.


 
So am I best to keep signing on/going to appointments at the JCP and going through the motions of jobseeking in the meantime then do you reckon?


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hole punching and treasury tags for me. Already bust one stapler trying to staple too many pages
> 
> (Also bust hole punch trying to hole punch too many pages)


 I might need to use a 6" nail to hold all mine together when I need to fill one in.  

Got my sanction overturned.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 21, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> <snip>Got my sanction overturned.


Very happy for you but in my arrogant opinion you shouldn't have been sanctioned in the first place.


----------



## wtfftw (Mar 21, 2013)

Adding another voice to it being fucking horrible. My 10 day late period and raging PMT are blates direct stress from ESA. In theory that one appointment aside I've had a great week but I feel shit. I keep bursting into tears.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 21, 2013)

(((wtfftw)))


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> So am I best to keep signing on/going to appointments at the JCP and going through the motions of jobseeking in the meantime then do you reckon?


I would - don't hand them any excuses to deprive you of what you're entitled to. 

No point in incurring sanctions at this stage.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I might need to use a 6" nail to hold all mine together when I need to fill one in.
> 
> Got my sanction overturned.


I'm also pleased for you but agreeing with Greebo. This was a punitive sanction designed to save them money and meet targets. The fact that your life was made hell was incidental to them.

Well done - I hope you get the money they rightly owe you too.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 21, 2013)

Anyone seen this?



> *Jobcentre was set targets for benefit sanctions*
> 
> A leaked email shows staff being warned by managers that they will be disciplined unless they increase the number of claimants referred to a tougher benefit regime.


 
http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/21/jobcentre-set-targets-benefit-sanctions


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 21, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> So am I best to keep signing on/going to appointments at the JCP and going through the motions of jobseeking in the meantime then do you reckon?


 
I don't actually know. I refused to sign as fit for work and did the 6 months waiting for the appeal on minimum Income Support.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone seen this?<snip>
> http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/mar/21/jobcentre-set-targets-benefit-sanctions


FFS!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx I'm not surprised and I do not think this is an isolated incident.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 21, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> I don't actually know. I refused to sign as fit for work and did the 6 months waiting for the appeal on minimum Income Support.


 
I'm going to phone them up tomorrow and see what the script is.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Minnie_the_Minx I'm not surprised and I do not think this is an isolated incident.


 
Yeah, no targets for getting people off ESA/DLA either is there


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Very happy for you but in my arrogant opinion you shouldn't have been sanctioned in the first place.


 I know that. You know that. Try telling the idiots at A4E and the DWP that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Hole punching and treasury tags for me. Already bust one stapler trying to staple too many pages
> 
> (Also bust hole punch trying to hole punch too many pages)


 
(((((hole punch and stapler)))))


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 22, 2013)

Rang them today, it's as ericjarvis said - They haven't even got it on record yet. And it could take up to 8 weeks to process and backdate and that. In the meantime she did say yeah, just keep signing on as normal - Hope I don't fuck up and actually _get_ a job in the 8 week period And to think all this could've been avoided if, when I initially failed the medical, I'd got a sicknote off my  GP and claimed ESA at the appeal rate instead of just resigning myself to having been kicked off and signing on for JSA - Had I thought the appeal had a cat in hell's chance, that's what I would've done. There's a lesson there - Next time I'll be a lot more organised.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Rang them today, it's as ericjarvis said - They haven't even got it on record yet. And it could take up to 8 weeks to process and backdate and that. In the meantime she did say yeah, just keep signing on as normal - Hope I don't fuck up and actually _get_ a job in the 8 week period And to think all this could've been avoided if, when I initially failed the medical, I'd got a sicknote off my GP and claimed ESA at the appeal rate instead of just resigning myself to having been kicked off and signing on for JSA - Had I thought the appeal had a cat in hell's chance, that's what I would've done. There's a lesson there - Next time I'll be a lot more organised.


 
Just be erm.... not yourself at any interviews


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel if you get a job in the next 8 weeks I think it would be a miracle because there are no jobs despite what the wanker politicians think. Obviously I would be thrilled for you if you did, mind!


----------



## yardbird (Mar 22, 2013)

I was just checking to see how everyone was getting on and Frances Lengel sorry to hear that you're being twatted over by the mighty (stupid) twat machine


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 22, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I was just checking to see how everyone was getting on and Frances Lengel sorry to hear that you're being twatted over by the mighty (stupid) twat machine


 
Cheers - It actually looks like there's light at the end of the tunnel WRT the twattery though


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 22, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Cheers - It actually looks like there's light at the end of the tunnel WRT the twattery though


 
And when the backdate comes through it's nice to be able to buy something that costs more than a tenner.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

Brain damaged amputee - fit for work

http://www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/10309714.Fit_to_work_/?ref=twtrec


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

*Brain injured face benefits 'trap'*



> People with brain injuries are stuck in a 'revolving door' of benefits assessments, it has been claimed.
> The brain injury charity Headway and personal injury lawyers Digby Brown have said many people with brain injuries are failing the government's new benefits assessments.
> 
> Many have their benefits reinstated on appeal...
> ...


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21851998?SThisFB

DWP's kept a bit quite about those figures for brain injuries appeals


----------



## kittyP (Mar 23, 2013)

WouldBe said:
			
		

> I might need to use a 6" nail to hold all mine together when I need to fill one in.
> 
> Got my sanction overturned.



Oh goodness you are all making me think I added nowhere near enough extra info


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Oh goodness you are all making me think I added nowhere near enough extra info


 
I typed about 40 extra pages (but the majority of it was memory related), plus I added all the latest consultants' letters, listed his 4 consultants, along with their telephone numbers and addresses, plus other doctors and clinics he'd attended, and I even typed out a list of the last year's hospital appointments which took up a few pages 

Also got a letter from his neuropsychiatrist stating that in his opinion, he wouldn't be fit for work at present or in the foreseeable future


----------



## kittyP (Mar 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> I typed about 40 extra pages (but the majority of it was memory related), plus I added all the latest consultants' letters, listed his 4 consultants, along with their telephone numbers and addresses, plus other doctors and clinics he'd attended, and I even typed out a list of the last year's hospital appointments which took up a few pages
> 
> Also got a letter from his neuropsychiatrist stating that in his opinion, he wouldn't be fit for work at present or in the foreseeable future



Ok. 
I guess he has been not working for quite a while? 

I didn't have time or the head space to get a Drs letter stating extra information before it had to be sent off. 
I gave them gp, cpn and psych name and address and last appointment dates but that all fitted on the form. 
The only extra pages I added was for when I ran out of room on the form. 
There wasn't really anything else I could give them tbh.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Ok.
> I guess he has been not working for quite a while?
> 
> I didn't have time or the head space to get a Drs letter stating extra information before it had to be sent off.
> ...


 
No, not been working for a while now.

That's fair enough if you don't really have anything to add, but DWP's defence for people winning appeals is because they provided more paperwork, so I made sure they couldn't say not enough evidence was provided


----------



## kittyP (Mar 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> No, not been working for a while now.
> 
> That's fair enough if you don't really have anything to add, but DWP's defence for people winning appeals is because they provided more paperwork, so I made sure they couldn't say not enough evidence was provided



Yeah that's what's worrying me. 
I couldn't invent things though.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 23, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Yeah that's what's worrying me.
> I couldn't invent things though.


 
Did you use the "Benefits and Work" help sheets?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 23, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Yeah that's what's worrying me.
> I couldn't invent things though.


 
You can only give them as much info as you have.  I'm lucky, because he sees doctors/consultants regularly so I always have up-to-date letters I can provide


----------



## kittyP (Mar 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> You can only give them as much info as you have.  I'm lucky, because he sees doctors/consultants regularly so I always have up-to-date letters I can provide



Yeah, all the more specialised people I see never write to me. It's all organised over the phone.


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Oh goodness you are all making me think I added nowhere near enough extra info


 Save it for the appeal / tribunal. Solicitor I've got involved says "Any proof for the tribunal, send it in last minute so there's no time for the DWP to refute it".


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> There wasn't really anything else I could give them tbh.


 Copies of appointment letters / specialist reports and copies of your medical records with relevant bits highlighted.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2013)

kittyP please try not to worry as best you can about this. There is no way of knowing how the DWP will rule when they see your application.

Some of the people on this thread have complex, longstanding, multiple health problems so will have lots more information than you (or indeed me if I ever applied) will ever have. You really haven't done the form wrong and we are all here to help you if you need to appeal. Much love xx


----------



## kittyP (Mar 24, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> kittyP please try not to worry as best you can about this. There is no way of knowing how the DWP will rule when they see your application.
> 
> Some of the people on this thread have complex, longstanding, multiple health problems so will have lots more information than you (or indeed me if I ever applied) will ever have. You really haven't done the form wrong and we are all here to help you if you need to appeal. Much love xx


 
Thank you


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 24, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Thank you


You're welcome lovey x


----------



## kittyP (Mar 24, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Copies of appointment letters / specialist reports and copies of your medical records with relevant bits highlighted.


 
I don't have anything in writing from anyone I see. It's all done over the phone. 

If they come back and say I didn't give them enough info about my assessments made by the CMHT, I provided them with names, addresses and phone numbers and if they haven't contacted them then that is grounds for appeal I guess and if I can appeal then I will get them to write me a report.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 24, 2013)

And now I am not worrying about it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

Massive heart attack day after WCA - 0 points and fit for work  


http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anxiety-over-atos-fit-for-work-test-1783531


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx

From the same paper - former vet/lecturer who ATOS deemed too unwell for public transport later ruled fit for work
http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/con-dem-benefit-cuts-blasted-by-vet-1588310

If I see that standard press release comment from ATOS one more time I will not be responsible for my actions.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

Cheers, not seen those particular stories.  The Scottish press are much more into publicising them than the English press aren't they?

Yes, I'm sick of the stock answers from ATOS that don't actually answer any questions.  It's like the Bedroom Tax stock answer is "there's the Discretionary Housing Fund for difficult cases"


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

The Scottish press, in particular the Record, have been quite militant about their opposition of this. Partly because the tories haven't had a firm base in Scotland since Thatcher decimated industry here (and there's parts of the country still haven't recovered) and partly because I think they feel betrayed by the Libdems who had a large following.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

I think there's always been a tradition of fighting against those seeking to take advantage of the working-class in Scotland, particularly Glasgow, where many of the claimants the Record features are based, as well. 
http://gdl.cdlr.strath.ac.uk/redclyde/courad/courad12.htm

I also think the journalist behind many of these stories has done his homework and see (as we all do) that the unfair targetting of people who want to work but can't due to ill-health shouldn't be penalised by an unfair punitive system designed at making them destitute.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Minnie_the_Minx
> 
> From the same paper - former vet/lecturer who ATOS deemed too unwell for public transport later ruled fit for work
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/con-dem-benefit-cuts-blasted-by-vet-1588310
> ...


It is astonishing, isn't it? They couldn't convey more of a "we really couldn't give a shit" message if they tried...but then I suspect they are probably trying to convey exactly that message, on the basis that vague stereotypes about claimants are always going to trump individual cases and hard facts.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> It is astonishing, isn't it? They couldn't convey more of a "we really couldn't give a shit" message if they tried...but then I suspect they are probably trying to convey exactly that message, on the basis that vague stereotypes about claimants are always going to trump individual cases and hard facts.


Oh yes, this lot on governments aren't fans of actual facts AT ALL.

May they be decanted to Ibrox or Easterhouse and sanctioned for 3 years the lot of them. Yes, local labour MP, you're not exempt.


----------



## hackedoff (Mar 25, 2013)

Hi,new to the site. Can I ask,what is the security like at these 'assessment centres'? I know the job centre has security staff, but is that the case for these assessment centres?. I have an anxiety condition which apart from other symptoms, means I get nervous of people in uniforms due to  a traumatic event in the past.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

hackedoff said:


> Hi,new to the site. Can I ask,what is the security like at these 'assessment centres'? I know the job centre has security staff, but is that the case for these assessment centres?. I have an anxiety condition which apart from other symptoms, means I get nervous of people in uniforms due to a traumatic event in the past.


 
I'd imagine they'd haul you out of the door and stop your benefits for not attending WCA 

But seriously, I don't know, but I'd imagine they'd take any thread to their staff quite seriously.  They wouldn't want them injured, or they'd have to be doing a WCA on them. 

Sorry, that sounds very glib.   Hopefully someone can provide a serious answer


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2013)

hackedoff said:


> Hi,new to the site. Can I ask,what is the security like at these 'assessment centres'? I know the job centre has security staff, but is that the case for these assessment centres?. I have an anxiety condition which apart from other symptoms, means I get nervous of people in uniforms due to a traumatic event in the past.


Is it possible for you (or someone else) to phone ahead and check with the assessment centre? I suspect arrangements will vary from centre to centre. Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues and best of luck for your assessment.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 25, 2013)

I can't remember seeing any uniformed security when I went - And it wasn't that long ago, so my memory should be clearer - I reckon I was too busy crapping myself about the medical to notice my surroundings much TBH. I reckon they must have security though - Everywhere does these days.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 25, 2013)

There's a website somewhere that lists experiences at various WCA centres.  Can't remember what it's called though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 26, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Is it possible for you (or someone else) to phone ahead and check with the assessment centre? I suspect arrangements will vary from centre to centre. Sorry to hear of your ongoing issues and best of luck for your assessment.


 
Sounds like grounds to request a home assessment.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 26, 2013)

hackedoff said:


> Hi,new to the site. Can I ask,what is the security like at these 'assessment centres'? I know the job centre has security staff, but is that the case for these assessment centres?. I have an anxiety condition which apart from other symptoms, means I get nervous of people in uniforms due to a traumatic event in the past.


Did you see the post that ViolentPanda made about requesting a home assessment? Don't forget you can still have someone with you and can still request recording of the assessment.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 26, 2013)

A friend received a letter dated '27th feb' today (26th mar) notifying him of his ATOS examination failure, is it possible he's got one day to submit his appeal there is no dated post mark.


----------



## toggle (Mar 26, 2013)

IC3D said:


> A friend received a letter dated '27th feb' today (26th mar) notifying him of his ATOS examination failure, is it possible he's got one day to submit his appeal there is no dated post mark.


ffs

you can appeal after more than a month if there are specific circs that means you couldn't appeal within a month.

it's a 'late written appeal'


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2013)

IC3D said:


> A friend received a letter dated '27th feb' today (26th mar) notifying him of his ATOS examination failure, is it possible he's got one day to submit his appeal there is no dated post mark.


 
A late written appeal is your friend.

I also find it highly doubtful that an ordinary DWP letter should take so long to get from A to B, even when the cheapskates do send them second class. A more suspicious-minded soul than me might think that somebody at their end is either playing their idea of a joke or maybe they're deliberately trying to short-arm you by claiming that you didn't respond within the one-month deadline.

I'm also wondering, seeing as I got a DWP letter yesterday dated from the middle of this month, whether or not an informal poll might find late-arriving DWP letters to be a highly regular thing, especially the time-sensitive ones.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'm also wondering, seeing as I got a DWP letter yesterday dated from the middle of this month, whether or not an informal poll might find late-arriving DWP letters to be a highly regular thing, especially the time-sensitive ones.


 
Was just thinking that myself, considering how many applications they seem to "lose".


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Was just thinking that myself, considering how many applications they seem to "lose".


 
Has anyone else also noticed the apparent black hole that mysteriously consumes appeal evidence favourable to claimants when you ask the DWP for copies of correspondence and/or many other things that might cause the tribunals to rule against the DWP, perchance..?

Ditto their remarkable ability to provide multiple contradictory answers to the same simple questions depending on which person you ask and also their tendency to state that unhelpful conduct on their part is down to their rules while being utterly unable to tell you, when asked simply and clearly, exactly which of their rules they're obeying by being deliberately unhelpful and wilfully obstructive..?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 26, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Has anyone else also noticed the apparent black hole that mysteriously consumes appeal evidence favourable to claimants when you ask the DWP for copies of correspondence and/or many other things that might cause the tribunals to rule against the DWP, perchance..?
> 
> Ditto their remarkable ability to provide multiple contradictory answers to the same simple questions depending on which person you ask and also their tendency to state that unhelpful conduct on their part is down to their rules while being utterly unable to tell you, when asked simply and clearly, exactly which of their rules they're obeying by being deliberately unhelpful and wilfully obstructive..?


 
Not sure as never appealed, but put in Support Group, but I wanted the paperwork and scoring sheet etc. to figure out what he'd got points on.  Never got it.  Got the letter saying how long he'd been put in Support Group and for how long, but I had to request that.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 26, 2013)

toggle said:


> ffs
> 
> you can appeal after more than a month if there are specific circs that means you couldn't appeal within a month.
> 
> it's a 'late written appeal'


 
Thx. I'm calling the DWP for him tomorrow to get to the bottom of it and hopefully they will see this as just reason for that. 



Bakunin said:


> A late written appeal is your friend.
> 
> I also find it highly doubtful that an ordinary DWP letter should take so long to get from A to B, even when the cheapskates do send them second class. A more suspicious-minded soul than me might think that somebody at their end is either playing their idea of a joke or maybe they're deliberately trying to short-arm you by claiming that you didn't respond within the one-month deadline.
> 
> *I'm also wondering, seeing as I got a DWP letter yesterday dated from the middle of this month, whether or not an informal poll might find late-arriving DWP letters to be a highly regular thing, especially the time-sensitive ones.*


 
This is a good idea, of course I'm highly suspicious about this letter if it is indeed the time sensitive response, and was wondering if this was the beginning of a new trend in their fuckery.


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Massive heart attack day after WCA - 0 points and fit for work
> 
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/anxiety-over-atos-fit-for-work-test-1783531


 
It confirms what I've been saying for a while now. Pretty much anyone who attends an assesment without a witness to accompany them will be assessed as having zero points regardless of their condition. Nobody should go to an assesment alone under any circumstances.


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 27, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'm also wondering, seeing as I got a DWP letter yesterday dated from the middle of this month, whether or not an informal poll might find late-arriving DWP letters to be a highly regular thing, especially the time-sensitive ones.


 
I've had undated letters from them, including one that required a time-sensitive response. Regardless of whether it's incompetence, working under too much pressure, or dishonesty, you have to assume when dealing with the DWP that absolutely everything that can be done to screw you over will be done. That means starting to prepare appeals even before you've been told you've been turned down. Never accepting anything you are told on the phone without independent confirmation, and above all never allowing a situation where the DWP have the only copy of a document that has ever been in your possession.

Think Kafka's rewrite of Brave New World.


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 27, 2013)

hackedoff said:


> Hi,new to the site. Can I ask,what is the security like at these 'assessment centres'? I know the job centre has security staff, but is that the case for these assessment centres?. I have an anxiety condition which apart from other symptoms, means I get nervous of people in uniforms due to a traumatic event in the past.


 
Take a friend or relative with you. Firstly it will help with the anxiety. More importantly it seems that pretty much everyone who attends an assessment without a witness is declared fit to work.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2013)

hackedoff this next advice is going to sound odd but there is logic to it.

Don't get dressed up in a suit/nice outfit/ Be clean and presentable but don't make too much of an effort. There are several reports that making an effort with your appearance is being used against candidates as evidence that they are fit to work, even if making that effort ensures they will be spending the next week in bed recovering.

It is human nature that we want to present ourselves in a favourable light to those we meet for the first time, however it is clear that Atos take this as evidence of malingering even when getting to the assessment is a great personal cost to the claimant.

I would urge you again to consider requesting a home assessment.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> hackedoff this next advice is going to sound odd but there is logic to it.
> 
> Don't get dressed up in a suit/nice outfit/ Be clean and presentable but don't make too much of an effort. There are several reports that making an effort with your appearance is being used against candidates as evidence that they are fit to work, even if making that effort ensures they will be spending the next week in bed recovering.
> 
> ...


 
It's quite an insult to people that to be clean and well-presented goes against you


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's quite an insult to people that to be clean and well-presented goes against you


Isn't it just.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 27, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Has anyone else also noticed the apparent black hole that mysteriously consumes appeal evidence favourable to claimants when you ask the DWP for copies of correspondence and/or many other things that might cause the tribunals to rule against the DWP, perchance..?
> 
> Ditto their remarkable ability to provide multiple contradictory answers to the same simple questions depending on which person you ask and also their tendency to state that unhelpful conduct on their part is down to their rules while being utterly unable to tell you, when asked simply and clearly, exactly which of their rules they're obeying by being deliberately unhelpful and wilfully obstructive..?


 
Yep. Two letters have been apparently sent to us regarding our backdated HB and CTB and we have received neither. 
Also another regarding HB that did arrive first class but it was 2 weeks after the date on the letter. 
Sorry I know that is not directly ATOS related but thought it worth mentioning.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Yep. Two letters have been apparently sent to us regarding our backdated HB and CTB and we have received neither.
> Also another regarding HB that did arrive first class but it was 2 weeks after the date on the letter.
> Sorry I know that is not directly ATOS related but thought it worth mentioning.


Definitely worth mentioning kittyP, it's all part of the same problem.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> hackedoff this next advice is going to sound odd but there is logic to it.
> 
> Don't get dressed up in a suit/nice outfit/ Be clean and presentable but don't make too much of an effort. There are several reports that making an effort with your appearance is being used against candidates as evidence that they are fit to work, even if making that effort ensures they will be spending the next week in bed recovering.
> 
> ...


 
The dick who did my assesment made a point of saying that the fact I was "well presented" was a contributory factor in my being awarded _nul points_.

I'd say wear your absolute worst clothes.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> The dick who did my assesment made a point of saying that the fact I was "well presented" was a contributory factor in my being awarded _nul points_.
> 
> I'd say wear your absolute worst clothes.


What a wanker of an assessor. Glad you got your decision overturned mate.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 28, 2013)

Fucking cunt!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-21953897


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

HILARY MCVEY and the lies of the DAILY MAIL  

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HREE-MILLION-claiming-disability-benefit.html


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> HILARY MCVEY and the lies of the DAILY MAIL
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...HREE-MILLION-claiming-disability-benefit.html


 
To be fair, this is someone who has less medical knowledge than most disabled people, no medical qualifications whatsoever, will brainlessly spout the party line regardless and probably earns more per quarter than most disabled claimants get in a year. So it's no great surprise that she has the bedside manner of an Army medical officer ('You're still breathing so you're obviously fit'), a total unwillingness to engage with the facts unless the facts are convenient for whatever crap she's spouting this week (in other words, a typical politician) and possesses all the heavyweight intellectual gravitas of a boiled potato.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> To be fair, this is someone who has less medical knowledge than most disabled people, no medical qualifications whatsoever, will brainlessly spout the party line regardless and probably earns more per quarter than most disabled claimants get in a year. So it's no great surprise that she has the bedside manner of an Army medical officer ('You're still breathing so you're obviously fit'), a total unwillingness to engage with the facts unless the facts are convenient for whatever crap she's spouting this week (in other words, a typical politician) and possesses all the heavyweight intellectual gravitas of a boiled potato.


 
People do take that kinda bullshit in though.

And that article - "Just filling in a form and getting it (DLA) for life" - FFS, it should be illegal to allow lies such as that to float out unchallenged into the public consciousness.


----------



## toggle (Mar 31, 2013)

that article gets up my nose for other reasons as well. would the marital status of a bloke have been focussed on in that way?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> that article gets up my nose for other reasons as well. would the marital status of a bloke have been focussed on in that way?


 
True. A dreadful article on lots of levels.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> People do take that kinda bullshit in though.
> 
> And that article - "Just filling in a form and getting it (DLA) for life" - FFS, it should be illegal to allow lies such as that to float out unchallenged into the public consciousness.


 
Then there's this one as well



> *900,000 choose to come off sickness benefit ahead of tests*
> 
> *Nearly 900,000 people who were on incapacity benefit dropped their claim to the payments rather than undergo a tough medical test, latest government figures show.*


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...come-off-sickness-benefit-ahead-of-tests.html


----------



## treelover (Mar 31, 2013)

Smears , lies, misinformation, the M.O of the global welfare reform movement, just read Calum's List to get at the truth...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Then there's this one as well
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...come-off-sickness-benefit-ahead-of-tests.html


 
Are you deliberately trying to raise my blood pressure by posting these articles 

In a way Shapps has got a point about IB being used as a way to hide unemployment, but it was the Tories who started doing that in the late 80's/early 90's. And anyway, long term unemployment is debilitating to ones health, so it makes sense for someone who, realistically, is likely to be unemployed for a long time to go on the sick rather than claim JSA with all it's attendant bullshit. And it was conservative policies that made long term unemployment part of the landscape of most communities in the UK, so really it's a case of reaping what you've sown.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

treelover said:


> Smears , lies, misinformation, the M.O of the global welfare reform movement, just read Calum's List to get at the truth...


 
What's Calum's List please?


----------



## toggle (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Are you deliberately trying to raise my blood pressure by posting these articles
> 
> In a way Shapps has got a point about IB being used as a way to hide unemployment, but it was the Tories who started doing that in the late 80's/early 90's. And anyway, long term unemployment is debilitating to ones health, so it makes sense for someone who, realistically, is likely to be unemployed for a long time to go on the sick rather than claim JSA with all it's attendant bullshit. And it was conservative policies that made long term unemployment part of the landscape of most communities in the UK, so really it's a case of reaping what you've sown.


 
are you reading my mind or something? cause the use of IB to massage unemployment was the first thing that came to my mind as well


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What's Calum's List please?


 
List of people who have died


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> are you reading my mind or something? cause the use of IB to massage unemployment was the first thing that came to my mind as well


 
I just thought it was a damn cheek of Shapps to accuse Labour of using IB to massage unemployment figures when all they were doing (as with much else) was carrying on a tradition started by his party.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Then there's this one as well
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...come-off-sickness-benefit-ahead-of-tests.html


 
They didn't really choose though, did they? They chose NOT to put themselves through an extremely stressful experience despite knowing they would be financially much worse off. Hardly a choice when someone opts for being a lot poorer.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> They didn't really choose though, did they? They chose NOT to put themselves through an extremely stressful experience despite knowing they would be financially much worse off. Hardly a choice when someone opts for being a lot poorer.


 
One thing that capitalism gives us all is choices. Or the illusion thereof


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> They didn't really choose though, did they? They chose NOT to put themselves through an extremely stressful experience despite knowing they would be financially much worse off. Hardly a choice when someone opts for being a lot poorer.


 
Yep, a friend of mine said she's absolutely no way going to an assessment.  As far as she's concerned, all her doctors/consultants proof should be enough that she's not fit for work, and if they're going to ignore that evidence, she'd rather starve than go through dealing with ATOS


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep, a friend of mine said she's absolutely no way going to an assessment. As far as she's concerned, all her doctors/consultants proof should be enough that she's not fit for work, and if they're going to ignore that evidence, she'd rather starve than go through dealing with ATOS


 
Which is what ATOS are hoping for - And if she dies during the interim then so much the better -_That's  _the way the system's worked out now.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> that article gets up my nose for other reasons as well. would the marital status of a bloke have been focussed on in that way?


 
If he were an MP, you can bet on it. You only need look at the snidery the media floated Brown and other bachelors' way in the '70s, '80s and '90s to realise that.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep, a friend of mine said she's absolutely no way going to an assessment. As far as she's concerned, all her doctors/consultants proof should be enough that she's not fit for work, and if they're going to ignore that evidence, she'd rather starve than go through dealing with ATOS


 
This is what my mum said to me. 
She said that if all the ATOS business is all too much for me they will help us survive until Badgers is able to earn enough to cover things until I am better. 
I would go down as a stat saying that I am off benefits and back to work when I wouldn't be. 

Are their any stats for people that are in that position? 
People that have had their benefits stopped/stopped claiming them but are not working (including JSA or not).


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Then there's this one as well
> 
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...come-off-sickness-benefit-ahead-of-tests.html


 
If only it *were* a "tough medical test", then more people would qualify. As it is, it's an arbitrary one-size-fits-all quasi-medical assessment of capability *sometimes* carried out by a doctor, but more often than not by a "healthcare professional" with little or no competence in disability/long-term ill-health.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Are their any stats for people that are in that position?
> People that have had their benefits stopped/stopped claiming them but are not working (including JSA or not).


 
I bet there isn't


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If only it *were* a "tough medical test", then more people would qualify. As it is, it's an arbitrary one-size-fits-all quasi-medical assessment of capability *sometimes* carried out by a doctor, but more often than not by a "healthcare professional" with little or no competence in disability/long-term ill-health.


 
Exactly - And the only bit that corresponds with medical/social security law is the tribunal bit - By which time a lot of claimants have fallen by the wayside for one reason or another.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If only it *were* a "tough medical test", then more people would qualify. As it is, it's an arbitrary one-size-fits-all quasi-medical assessment of capability *sometimes* carried out by a doctor, but more often than not by a "healthcare professional" with little or no competence in disability/long-term ill-health.


 
But on the other hand, if the medical that isn't a medical were such a tough test, then how come there's so many people still on sick benefits. Could it possible be that they are actually sick and not defrauding the system?! 

and don't get me started on the Mail story



> From next week, people who apply for DLA of up to £120 a week are in for a shock: they will be forced to take medical tests to weed out fraudulent claims instead of* just filling in a form and getting it for life.*
> ​Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2301735/I-bogus-disabled--DO-better-Ex-TV-host-new-Work-Minister-UKs-THREE-MILLION-claiming-disability-benefit.html#ixzz2P8NZe297 ​Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook​


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

[quote="kittyP, post: 12102820, member: 19418]<snip>

Are their any stats for people that are in that position?
People that have had their benefits stopped/stopped claiming them but are not working (including JSA or not).[/quote]

No, there won't be - But if there are IDS will claim them as a success coz they're not "parked" on benefits.


----------



## toggle (Mar 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If he were an MP, you can bet on it. You only need look at the snidery the media floated Brown and other bachelors' way in the '70s, '80s and '90s to realise that.


 
from what i can recall, that was attacking, a lot of insinuation that labour was gay controlled. this isn't having a go. it's supportive of her and her policies. they just want to talk about her personal life in a way they wouldn't do so about a man they liked as a politician.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Fuck's sale it's not like the forms are a single piece of paper either, how many hours does it take the average claimant (or person on behalf of claimant) to complete? It's not the most helpful or straightforward of forms and if people want to get money, there's a lot easier ways to do it.


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Fuck's sale it's not like the forms are a single piece of paper either, how many hours does it take the average claimant (or person on behalf of claimant) to complete? It's not the most helpful or straightforward of forms and if people want to get money, there's a lot easier ways to do it.


 
That sums it up - A DLA form, you've gotta be messing? Most people do need a rep to fill it in for them. And you're right, easy money's a lot easier to come by than benefits.


----------



## Libertad (Mar 31, 2013)

I finished my DLA form last week. Two weeks, three hours each afternoon, two of us doing it. All written up with extra pages, just waiting for the specialist's letter.

Towards the end just sticking it on the table to work on it was making me feel physically sick.


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## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> I finished my DLA form last week. Two weeks, three hours each afternoon, two of us doing it. All written up with extra pages, just waiting for the specialist's letter.
> 
> Towards the end just sticking it on the table to work on it was making me feel physically sick.


So somewhere between 40 and 50 hours, plus all the increased stress of the process? Keeping my fingers crossed for you.


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> I finished my DLA form last week. Two weeks, three hours each afternoon, two of us doing it. All written up with extra pages, just waiting for the specialist's letter.
> 
> Towards the end just sticking it on the table to work on it was making me feel physically sick.


 
That's how it's been for me with JSA, never mind rendering that scaffolding dangerous, fuckin rendering that claimant _nauseous._


----------



## Libertad (Mar 31, 2013)

Thanks e-girl. Wondering whether to staple the "extra space" sheets to each relevant page or all at the end? Any ideas?


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Thanks e-girl. Wondering whether to staple the "extra space" sheets to each relevant page or all at the end? Any ideas?


 
All at the end - But with clear indicators pointing to each bit.


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## Libertad (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> All at the end - But with clear indicators pointing to each bit.


 
Got it. Name and NI number, oughta include a feicin DNA sample an'all.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> So somewhere between 40 and 50 hours, plus all the increased stress of the process? Keeping my fingers crossed for you.


 
I'd say more than that.  I reckon I was at mine almost every day for a month and I had three people on here helping me!


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Thanks e-girl. Wondering whether to staple the "extra space" sheets to each relevant page or all at the end? Any ideas?


 

Have you got any little coloured tabs?

I wrote in each box *See Flag 1, See Flag 2 etc. *

Then I attached all the typed sheets at the end labelled *Flag 1 etc.*

I typed on each sheet, what the answer related to like this (whilst putting in the header, claimant's name and NI Number:


*FLAG 1*

*ABOUT YOUR ILLNESSES AND DISABILITIES *

*MEDICAL – GENERAL*

Then tagged it with a coloured tag *Flag 1*

I also attached an Index page to the front



*INDEX OF ATTACHMENTS*

*FLAG 1 - *About Your Illnesses of Disabilities 
 (Medical – General)

*FLAG 2 - *Details of Tablets, Medication or Special Treatment
 (Current Medications)

*FLAG 3 - *Does Anyone Else Provide you With Care, Support
or Treatment?
(List of Consultants/Doctors)

*FLAG 4 - *Hospital or Clinic Treatment
 (Hospital Admissions in the Last Year)

etc.

If typewritten pages went to more than 1 page, I numbered them, and put the relevant flag in the footer as well, just in case everything ever fell to pieces


----------



## Quartz (Mar 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> I finished my DLA form last week. Two weeks, three hours each afternoon, two of us doing it. All written up with extra pages, just waiting for the specialist's letter.


 
Fingers thoroughly crossed for you.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Another poster recommended putting your NI number at the top of each page so if any pages do get detached, they can be forwarded to the person dealing with your case at the DWP.

Also get copies of ALL materials used in the application, including letters from third parties and any additional material supplied.


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## Libertad (Mar 31, 2013)

Scanning tomorrow.


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## Quartz (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Another poster recommended putting your NI number at the top of each page so if any pages do get detached, they can be forwarded to the person dealing with your case at the DWP.


 
*Top and bottom*. With your name, date, the relevant form number, any reference numbers, and page number. Two lines should do it. You never know which way a document is going to be incorrectly placed on the photocopier or scanner.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Quartz said:


> *Top and bottom*. With your name, date, the relevant form number, any reference numbers, and page number. Two lines should do it. You never know which way a document is going to be incorrectly placed on the photocopier or scanner.


NOt that we're saying that mistakes are rife at the DWP, oh no


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Another poster recommended putting your NI number at the top of each page so if any pages do get detached, they can be forwarded to the person dealing with your case at the DWP.
> 
> Also get copies of ALL materials used in the application, including letters from third parties and any additional material supplied.


 

Yep and I flagged all the doctor and consultants' letters and listed them on the Index sheet as well in case they claimed they hadn't been included


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

Quartz said:


> *Top and bottom*. With your name, date, the relevant form number, any reference numbers, and page number. Two lines should do it. You never know which way a document is going to be incorrectly placed on the photocopier or scanner.


 
Good point, never occurred to me, and I should know better considering the amount of mass copying jobs I've had to do in offices


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

It's almost like the form and supporting materials should be in a book, with an index as prepared by a member of the Society of Indexers:
http://www.indexers.org.uk/index.php?id=164

I'm not entirely joking either.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> It's almost like the form and supporting materials should be in a book, with an index as prepared by a member of the Society of Indexers:
> http://www.indexers.org.uk/index.php?id=164
> 
> I'm not entirely joking either.


 
Blimey, never knew such a job existed!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> They didn't really choose though, did they? They chose NOT to put themselves through an extremely stressful experience despite knowing they would be financially much worse off. Hardly a choice when someone opts for being a lot poorer.


 
Sue Marsh on Sky today


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Sue Marsh on Sky today



She cam across well, handed the Sky news presenter her clearly uninformed arse on a plate. 

I get really sick of this crap, people saying '55% of people were found fit to work after assessment'. Really? And how many of those were found not fit to work after they appealed?


----------



## toggle (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She cam across well, handed the Sky news presenter her clearly uninformed arse on a plate.
> 
> I get really sick of this crap, people saying '55% of people were found fit to work after assessment'. Really? And how many of those were found not fit to work after they appealed?


 
also ignoring that the majority of the people found fit for work will not be considered fit for work when they turn up at job interviews.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> also ignoring that the majority of the people found fit for work will not be considered fit for work when they turn up at job interviews.


Exactly. Not to mention that any support offered by employers is the bare minimum 'reasonable adjustments' they can get away with  by law and most certainly wouldn't extend to anyone requiring complex care in a work environment.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> She cam across well, handed the Sky news presenter her clearly uninformed arse on a plate.
> 
> I get really sick of this crap, people saying '55% of people were found fit to work after assessment'. Really? And how many of those were found not fit to work after they appealed?


 
I actually am quite surprised to say this but good on Sky News for letting her have that platform to say those things. 
I think they would have had a good idea what she was going to say before it went live and handed her the government stats for her to argue her point against.  
Good on sky news.


----------



## Bakunin (Mar 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> also ignoring that the majority of the people found fit for work will not be considered fit for work when they turn up at job interviews.


 
Or when they try to claim JSA because ATOS listed them as fit for work, only to be turned down for jobseeker's money because they're obviously, erm, unfit for work.

Thereby getting the sum total of nothing.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 31, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Or when they try to claim JSA because ATOS listed them as fit for work, only to be turned down for jobseeker's money because they're obviously, erm, unfit for work.
> 
> Thereby getting the sum total of nothing.


 
This is what I will think will happen to me. 
I am just hoping that we will still be able to claim housing benefit even if the ESA is stopped.


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2013)

So far as I can tell from the latest press release bollocks from ministers, you count as having been a "fraudulent claimant" if you reach retirement age before your assessment. The government stats are fine. It's the summarisations they publish widely that are complete toss. Last available set of actual stats, for instance, shows 65 thousand fewer IB/ESA claims over the last year. That's just plain incompatible with what ministers are saying.


----------



## ericjarvis (Mar 31, 2013)

Just remember that suicide isn't going to stop ATOS declaring you fit to work.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 31, 2013)

ericjarvis said:


> Just remember that suicide isn't going to stop ATOS declaring you fit to work.


I thought that one had already been addressed; if your decomposing corpse is even warm or recognisably humanoid you're likely to be declared fit for work by some incompetent or conscienceless bureaucrat.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

kittyP said:


> This is what I will think will happen to me.
> I am just hoping that we will still be able to claim housing benefit even if the ESA is stopped.


 
You will - on the basis of zero income. Assuming your ESA claim does get rejected (and I hope it doesn't), take your appeal as far as it'll go - to the tribunal, coz the tribunal is the bit that isn't just going off ATOS/IDS's whim - The tribunal goes off social security law and how it applies to the facts that you've supplied them with. You're where I was at the end of last year kittyP , it's a massive ballache to say the least and I'm not going to lie, if your claim gets turned down there's a long hard road ahead of you - But walk that road - I couldn't see the point, but I ended up winning my appeal, you can too - And, if you do get turned down go to your doc and get a sicknote and claim ESA at the appeal rate, don't throw in the towel like I did & sign on the dole coz that _will_ cause you headaches. Stay strong, sister, there's a lot of people on here who are in your corner.


----------



## kittyP (Mar 31, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You will - on the basis of zero income. Assuming your ESA claim does get rejected (and I hope it doesn't), take your appeal as far as it'll go - to the tribunal, coz the tribunal is the bit that isn't just going off ATOS/IDS's whim - The tribunal goes off social security law and how it applies to the facts that you've supplied them with. You're where I was at the end of last year kittyP , it's a massive ballache to say the least and I'm not going to lie, if your claim gets turned down there's a long hard road ahead of you - But walk that road - I couldn't see the point, but I ended up winning my appeal, you can too - And, if you do get turned down go to your doc and get a sicknote and claim ESA at the appeal rate, don't throw in the towel like I did & sign on the dole coz that _will_ cause you headaches. Stay strong, sister, there's a lot of people on here who are in your corner.


 
I am struggling to even leave the house atm, there is no way I am going to be able to sign on to JSA no matter what happens. 

Thank you for your support and advice. It means a lot. 
Massive Urban love x x


----------



## Frances Lengel (Mar 31, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I am struggling to even leave the house atm, there is no way I am going to be able to sign on to JSA no matter what happens.
> 
> Thank you for your support and advice. It means a lot.
> Massive Urban love x x


 
Well if claiming JSA is a definite no-no, defo _do_ make sure you get out of the house to at least get a sicknote to claim ESA at the appeal rate.

And _tell_ the pricks how you struggle to leave the house - Guild the lilly if you have to (and you do), it's not lying - The system is set up for you to fail, so you do need to play them at their own - The points system/criteria/whatever it's called is online - Use it & make your symptoms _appear_ to fit those criteria - The system is flawed & treats everyone as a cheat so, sad as it is, this is what you have to do. I know you're going through it & I hope this advice hasn't pecked your head further.

All the best *fistbump* *red star over europe* *success to the plough* etc etc xx


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 31, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I get really sick of this crap, people saying '55% of people were found fit to work after assessment'. Really? And how many of those were found not fit to work after they appealed?


 
I knew something was missing from that interview!! I watched it and thought there's a figure missing.


----------



## belboid (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> My mate had an interview a few months back, following which he was found capable of work, which was a bit surprising. When he read the doctors report of their meeting, he discovered that said doc had completely and utterly lied about what he (my mate) had actually said. So, 'I can sometimes walk as far as the local shop, but cant get around it since they changed the layout inside' became 'Can walk to the shop.'
> 
> Fortunately my mate had discreetly recorded the meeting, as he feared the doc would bend the truth, altho not to the extent he actually did. So he goes along to an initial appeal and goes to play the recording, but is then told he cant do so, as he hadn't got the docs permission to record, and so the recording - despite showing clearly that the doc had fabricated his notes - cannot be used. He can,apparently, use it for social and domestic purposes, which is nice.
> 
> Anyone think of a way he can still sneak the recoding into an appeal? Or the facts contained therein? Cos otherwise its just his word against the docs, of course.


Update:  after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.

Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.

RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


 
Not so good.

Sorry for your loss, chief.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


 
Shit.  

Really sorry (and angry) to hear that belboid


----------



## Greebo (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


Very sorry about what your friend went through and your loss of him belboid, this is just plain wrong.

ESA and IB are supposed to be there as something for people to live on while they need to concentrate on looking after themselves - not as a source of extra stress and hardship when you're already in a very bad state.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


So sorry to hear this belboid.

Fucking ATOS. And Cameron, more blood on his hands, it'll never wash off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


 
My condolences.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

Esther McVey on Ch4 news in a minute


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

McVey talking as much crap as IDS

They're NOT cutting DLA by 20%, they're_ managing_ it


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

McVey confirmed it's 20 metres, but only if it was safely, reliably etc.

Yeah right


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> McVey confirmed it's 20 metres, but only if it was safely, reliably etc.
> 
> Yeah right


Fuck's sake. 20m could be the equivalent of 20 miles for some people and they'd still get passed for for work.


----------



## kittyP (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


 
Oh fucking hell I am so sorry


----------



## toggle (Apr 3, 2013)

belboid said:


> Update: after two appeals, he finally actually won his case a week ago, and it was agreed he was incapable of work.
> 
> Sometime over the weekened, he provided the ultimate evidence of his illness.
> 
> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Fuck's sake. 20m could be the equivalent of 20 miles for some people and they'd still get passed for for work.


 
I don't think some people realise the consequences of this and how loads of people will lose their mobility and free bus passes, as you can only get free travel if you're on higher rate mobility


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 3, 2013)

Sorry for your loss, Belboid.

And it's another reason for us to keep up the fight.


----------



## toggle (Apr 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I don't think some people realise the consequences of this and how loads of people will lose their mobility and free bus passes, as you can only get free travel if you're on higher rate mobility


 
and dla is a passport benefit in other ways, 20 quid a week lost isn't such a big deal. it's the other 80 quid or so a week in other stuff that is the big deal.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

toggle said:


> and dla is a passport benefit in other ways, 20 quid a week lost isn't such a big deal. it's the other 80 quid or so a week in other stuff that is the big deal.


 
Think it's more than that if you're on higher rate

Lower rate doesn't really get you anything does it?


----------



## toggle (Apr 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Think it's more than that if you're on higher rate
> 
> Lower rate doesn't really get you anything does it?


 
lower rate of either is passport to extra tax credits and extra earnings allowed for HB/ctb. plus there are some discounted dtuff that being disabled in any way cvan get you


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

toggle said:


> lower rate of either is passport to extra tax credits and extra earnings allowed for HB/ctb. plus there are some discounted dtuff that being disabled in any way cvan get you


 
Yes, but having higher rate gives you mobility, and transport is expensive, so having travel pass/car at least enables you to get out and about. You won't be able to do that if you get knocked off higher rate, so people are at risk of become even more socially excluded


----------



## toggle (Apr 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yes, but having higher rate gives you mobility, and transport is expensive, so having travel pass/car at least enables you to get out and about. You won't be able to do that if you get knocked off higher rate, so people are at risk of become even more socially excluded


 
not disagreeing with you. just adding the extra onto what you were saying. or trying to.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

toggle said:


> not disagreeing with you. just adding the extra onto what you were saying. or trying to.


 
Oh that's fine


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I thought that one had already been addressed; if your decomposing corpse is even warm or recognisably humanoid you're likely to be declared fit for work by some incompetent or conscienceless bureaucrat.


 
or selected as a tory parliamentary candidate


----------



## melb (Apr 3, 2013)

Im not sure if im posting this in the right place but here goes... i went for my first ESA atos medical today. Ive done a bit of research online and im quite concerned because my 'healthcare professional' sat typing loads and loads into his computer, but i thought it was all check box type things? would ths be a good or bad sign? anyone know? i am totally stressing over the decision that will be made  any help would be very much appreciated x


----------



## toggle (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> Im not sure if im posting this in the right place but here goes... i went for my first ESA atos medical today. Ive done a bit of research online and im quite concerned because my 'healthcare professional' sat typing loads and loads into his computer, but i thought it was all check box type things? would ths be a good or bad sign? anyone know? i am totally stressing over the decision that will be made  any help would be very much appreciated x


 
relax, you're in the right place.

and i'm sure someone will tell you shortly. TBH, I don't know it will make much difference. it all seems very random who gets through


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> Im not sure if im posting this in the right place but here goes... i went for my first ESA atos medical today. Ive done a bit of research online and im quite concerned because my 'healthcare professional' sat typing loads and loads into his computer, but i thought it was all check box type things? would ths be a good or bad sign? anyone know? i am totally stressing over the decision that will be made  any help would be very much appreciated x


 
the one I went to with a friend, the 'healthcare professional' seemed to be typing text for most questions rather than just clicking yes / no type answers.

I would have thought that they have to record (as in make a note of) some of what's said to justify their decision whether or not someone meets each yes/no thing.

Don't give up, even if you get a 'computer says no' letter - the proportion of appeals that are upheld is considerably higher than it would be if the system wasn't a complete and utter steaming pile of  - although try and get help - if nothing else from this here thread - if you do go as far as appeal.

ETA - didn't mean "record" as in audio recording


----------



## melb (Apr 3, 2013)

so who makes the decision? the guy i saw said he didnt, and that the medical combined with info from my doctor is looked at by the dwp? sorry im new to all this and really confused.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> Im not sure if im posting this in the right place but here goes... i went for my first ESA atos medical today. Ive done a bit of research online and im quite concerned because my 'healthcare professional' sat typing loads and loads into his computer, but i thought it was all check box type things? would ths be a good or bad sign? anyone know? i am totally stressing over the decision that will be made  any help would be very much appreciated x


It's neither a good nor bad sign - the LIMA software has limited phrases which sort of automatically fill in as the person types. Hence such delights as "a mild amputation". Hope for the best, prepare for the worst.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> so who makes the decision? the guy i saw said he didnt, and that the medical combined with info from my doctor is looked at by the dwp?<snip>


It's a fudge - that person typing makes the decision, but officially it's passed up the chain through ATOS to the DWP and they rubber stamp it.
If you request that the decision is reviewed or appealed, that's when the DWP have to take anything your doctor wrote + what you filled in on the form into account.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> so who makes the decision? the guy i saw said he didnt, and that the medical combined with info from my doctor is looked at by the dwp? sorry im new to all this and really confused.


 
someone will come along and explain in more detail soon, but my understanding is that the ATOS person effectively writes a report (or the technological equivalent of doing so) which goes to DWP.

ATOS themselves do not make a decision on whether someone is entitled to benefits, that's still DWP's job, and is done by a "decision maker" at DWP. 

This may be worth a read if you haven't already,


----------



## melb (Apr 3, 2013)

thank you all so much for this, i guess ill have to sit and wait and stress. i was told a decision takes about 3 weeks? is this so? and if i am deemed fit for work do they just stop my benefit, or will they tell me first?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

Greebo said:


> It's a fudge - that person typing makes the decision, but officially it's passed up the chain through ATOS to the DWP and they rubber stamp it.
> If you request that the decision is reviewed or appealed, that's when the DWP have to take anything your doctor wrote + what you filled in on the form into account.


 
Although ATOS would claim they don't make the decision, they just do the assessment. However, it's what they type in or tick that influences the decision (I would think), so if you say you go to the shop occasionally, they'll fill it in to make out you're perfectly able to get out and about

I think anyway, thinking about them makes my brain go numb

What Puddy said may be more accurate


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> thank you all so much for this, i guess ill have to sit and wait and stress. i was told a decision takes about 3 weeks? is this so? and if i am deemed fit for work do they just stop my benefit, or will they tell me first?


 
In answer to the first part, regret it can be a damn sight longer than that.

The aforementioned friend - medical was 9 January, letter saying he was in the 'support group' arrived 28 February.

As for the second bit, I am sure they will tell you.  I'm not sufficiently expert to say what your next steps are pending an appeal if they do say no.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> thank you all so much for this, i guess ill have to sit and wait and stress. i was told a decision takes about 3 weeks? is this so? and if i am deemed fit for work do they just stop my benefit, or will they tell me first?


 
Are you subscribed to the _Benefits and Work _website?  It's well worth the subscription, although if you can't afford it, there's plenty on here with lots of good advice


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 3, 2013)

melb said:


> thank you all so much for this, i guess ill have to sit and wait and stress. i was told a decision takes about 3 weeks? is this so? and if i am deemed fit for work do they just stop my benefit, or will they tell me first?


 
No they'll tell you first - About 3 weeks sounds right, that's how long it took for me - If you do get kicked off you'll get a letter telling you when your last payment is going to be - it's paid fortnightly in arrears, so that gives you a _bit_ of leeway.

Hope it goes your way though 

If you do get latered off you can claim ESA for the duration of your appeal at the lower rate (£71 pw) if you get a sicknote from your doc - I strongly advise you to do this. Hope you don't get kicked off though.


----------



## melb (Apr 3, 2013)

thanks guys, it looks like ive got an uphill struggle whichever way it goes  am glad theres kind people like you all to help people like me thru it  xxxx


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 3, 2013)

this thread ought to come with "don't panic" in large friendly letters on the first page...


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 4, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> this thread ought to come with "don't panic" in large friendly letters on the first page...


----------



## Greebo (Apr 4, 2013)

melb said:


> thanks guys, it looks like ive got an uphill struggle whichever way it goes  am glad theres kind people like you all to help people like me thru it  xxxx


So were a lot of us, when we were where you are now.  The unwritten rule of urban is "pass it on".


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 4, 2013)

melb said:


> thanks guys, it looks like ive got an uphill struggle whichever way it goes  am glad theres kind people like you all to help people like me thru it  xxxx


Please try not to stress. This thread and posters on it are here to support you through the process.


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## Libertad (Apr 4, 2013)

belboid said:


> RIP mate, we'll keep slamming the bastards for you


 
Yes, yes we will. Very sorry to hear about your friend belboid.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 5, 2013)

melb said:


> Im not sure if im posting this in the right place but here goes... i went for my first ESA atos medical today. Ive done a bit of research online and im quite concerned because my 'healthcare professional' sat typing loads and loads into his computer, but i thought it was all check box type things? would ths be a good or bad sign? anyone know? i am totally stressing over the decision that will be made  any help would be very much appreciated x


Also, although the healthcare person typed a lot into the computer, the LIMA software will disregard the text when the automatic report is generated. Do not worry about this. Reports I have seen are usually so atrocious that it is clear they are a work of fiction. Whilst the report is computer-generated, it still relies on menu choices made by the assessor.

Hang in there. Once you have a decision, no matter what it is, ask for a copy of the report generated by the assessor and the complete score breakdown of your allocated score.


----------



## pat1968 (Apr 5, 2013)

I have my Atos medical next week and am absolutely terrified. I suffer from various phobias, including agoraphobia and claustrophobia, therefore rarely go out of the house. I have arranged for a friend to take me to the assessment, and will medicate myself in advance, just to get there. Although I wrote on the form that I need to be near an exit and have problems with stairs, corridors, rooms with no windows etc, I'm worried that they will ignore all that and tell me that I will have to deal with exactly that, or lose my benefit. I had a "medical" there some years ago, when I wasn't quite as bad. When told I needed to go upstairs or lose my benefit, I over medicated to get up there, had a horrific experience and was ill for 3 days. If they do this to me again, I will certainly try to go up, but my question is, if I have a panic attack and don't get up there, am I within my rights to ask them to re-schedule another appointment somewhere on ground level, near an exit, or do I immediately score no points and have to appeal? I am worried sick about this issue. I apologize if I've posted this in the wrong place.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> I have my Atos medical next week and am absolutely terrified. I suffer from various phobias, including agoraphobia and claustrophobia, therefore rarely go out of the house. I have arranged for a friend to take me to the assessment, and will medicate myself in advance, just to get there. Although I wrote on the form that I need to be near an exit and have problems with stairs, corridors, rooms with no windows etc, I'm worried that they will ignore all that and tell me that I will have to deal with exactly that, or lose my benefit. I had a "medical" there some years ago, when I wasn't quite as bad. When told I needed to go upstairs or lose my benefit, I over medicated to get up there, had a horrific experience and was ill for 3 days. If they do this to me again, I will certainly try to go up, but my question is, if I have a panic attack and don't get up there, am I within my rights to ask them to re-schedule another appointment somewhere on ground level, near an exit, or do I immediately score no points and have to appeal? I am worried sick about this issue. I apologize if I've posted this in the wrong place.


 
hm, tough one.  I'd be tempted to say don't medicate as it'll show how panicked you are, but then if that's going to prevent you getting to the assessment...


----------



## Greebo (Apr 5, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> I have my Atos medical next week and am absolutely terrified. I suffer from various phobias, including agoraphobia and claustrophobia, therefore rarely go out of the house. I have arranged for a friend to take me to the assessment, and will medicate myself in advance, just to get there. <snip>


pat1968 get your friend prepared to state firmly but politely on your behalf if need be, that there's no way on earth that you can get to the room because you will have a panic attack (or are already having one).  

Don't overmedicate, dosages are set for a reason, and IMHO it's better for any assessor or potential witness (recepionist, security guard etc) to see your unmasked symptoms as they are, or at least when you're only on your everyday dosage.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 5, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> I have my Atos medical next week and am absolutely terrified. I suffer from various phobias, including agoraphobia and claustrophobia, therefore rarely go out of the house. I have arranged for a friend to take me to the assessment, and will medicate myself in advance, just to get there. Although I wrote on the form that I need to be near an exit and have problems with stairs, corridors, rooms with no windows etc, I'm worried that they will ignore all that and tell me that I will have to deal with exactly that, or lose my benefit. I had a "medical" there some years ago, when I wasn't quite as bad. When told I needed to go upstairs or lose my benefit, I over medicated to get up there, had a horrific experience and was ill for 3 days. If they do this to me again, I will certainly try to go up, but my question is, if I have a panic attack and don't get up there, am I within my rights to ask them to re-schedule another appointment somewhere on ground level, near an exit, or do I immediately score no points and have to appeal? I am worried sick about this issue. I apologize if I've posted this in the wrong place.


 
If you are too ill on the day to go the ATOS medical, then you will not automatically get your benefits stopped, but you will need to make contact and let them know what's happening and then get a doctors note to support that you were too ill to attend. 

(friend I referred to above did have to cancel one appointment, and got a doctors note - just got re-scheduled.)

I'm not sure what the position would be if you were taken ill while you're actually on the premises.

Definitely worth having a friend take you there -you will be asked how you got there, and the fact you were not in a position to get there on your own is highly relevant.

you are allowed to have that friend come in to the 'medical' with you (it's not the sort of medical that involves taking any clothes off), and friend can prompt you (e.g. I remembered one or two incidents that friend had that he didn't mention.)  I didn't actually make notes while I was there but did jot a few things down afterwards.

Bear in mind that one or two of what appear to be polite, conversational questions are actually part of the assessment - e.g. the 'how did you get here?' / 'did you have any difficulty finding us', and 'what would you have done if we'd rung up first thing this morning to postpone?' is another (for the latter, most people would be very British about it and make non committal noises. If it would cause you either considerable distress, or great difficulty arranging alternative transport another day then damn well say so.)

And in your circumstances, I'd wonder if you'd be better off requesting a home assessment?

This is a difficult one - I can't see them telling (say) a wheelchair user that s/he'd have to go to an upstairs room in a building without a lift or lose their benefit.  The system in general isn't so good at dealing with mental health things, but I'd question whether your previous experience complied with equalities legislation in terms of 'reasonable adjustments'

Do you have any support worker / support organisation on side?  They will have experience of the whole ESA thing.

Hope all goes well.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> <snip>in your circumstances, I'd wonder if you'd be better off requesting a home assessment?
> 
> This is a difficult one - I can't see them telling (say) a wheelchair user that s/he'd have to go to an upstairs room in a building without a lift or lose their benefit. The system in general isn't so good at dealing with mental health things, but I'd question whether your previous experience complied with equalities legislation in terms of 'reasonable adjustments'
> 
> Do you have any support worker / support organisation on side? They will have experience of the whole ESA thing.<snip>


Very good points made here. ^


----------



## pat1968 (Apr 5, 2013)

Thank you for the replies to my post.
Other than my GP, I have no support worker or organisation on side presently. I have had various in the past, but only during courses of therapy. Once the courses are over, they pretty much let you get on with things by yourself. In my case, I revert back to dealing with things the way I know best, i.e. not very well. I have an appointment with my GP before my medical regarding all this plus advice on medication. I have asked my friend to speak on my behalf if need be. I didn't know I could have a home assessment, but I have requested for the assessment to be recorded.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 5, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> Thank you for the replies to my post.
> Other than my GP, I have no support worker or organisation on side presently. I have had various in the past, but only during courses of therapy. Once the courses are over, they pretty much let you get on with things by yourself. In my case, I revert back to dealing with things the way I know best, i.e. not very well. I have an appointment with my GP before my medical regarding all this plus advice on medication. I have asked my friend to speak on my behalf if need be. I didn't know I could have a home assessment, but I have requested for the assessment to be recorded.


Call them on Monday as early as you are able to and make sure that your request for an assessment has been received. 

Also, echoing what the others have said if you find that you are not well enough and reschedule it, you could always ask for a home assessment then and you can request the assessment is recorded.

Best of luck for assessment. In some ways, although I would not wish this on you, if you had a panic attack in front of them perhaps they would start to understand what you have to cope with.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 5, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Best of luck for assessment. In some ways, although I would not wish this on you, if you had a panic attack in front of them perhaps they would start to understand what you have to cope with.


 
Would like to say that's true, but unfortunately I've read of people collapsing at assessments and there's been little sympathy 

Not really what you want to here Pat, but best to know


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 5, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would like to say that's true, but unfortunately I've read of people collapsing at assessments and there's been little sympathy
> 
> Not really what you want to here Pat, but best to know


Even if they are not sympathetic, they would see that the problem is real.

Just do your best, Pat, it's all you can do.


----------



## pat1968 (Apr 8, 2013)

Thank you all for the advice and comments.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 8, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Would like to say that's true, but unfortunately I've read of people collapsing at assessments and there's been little sympathy
> 
> Not really what you want to here Pat, but best to know


 1. Make sure you secretly record the assessment. Point out for the benefit of the recording what has happened to your friend.
2. Call an ambulance. DWP will have a hard job dismissing the ambulance report if ATOS fail to mention it.


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## TopCat (Apr 8, 2013)

ATOS has just declared Thatcher fit for work.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 8, 2013)

TopCat said:


> ATOS has just declared Thatcher fit for work.


----------



## Quartz (Apr 8, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> I didn't know I could have a home assessment, but I have requested for the assessment to be recorded.


 
Pat, the very best of luck to you. I've not had to go through the hell of ATOS but I've read this thread and can tell you what will happen:

You will have your assessment and ATOS will pass you fit for work. They will lie, they will fabricate, they will 'forget' the recording equipment or it will be broken, etc. You will then appeal, the DWP will pretend to lose your paperwork, but as long as you persist, you will eventually get a fair hearing. So chin up and make sure you have at least two copies of everything.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 9, 2013)

Quartz said:


> <snip>as long as you persist, you will eventually get a fair hearing. So chin up and make sure you have at least two copies of everything.


^This in spades.  Pat, you're in for a rough ride, but it'll be worth it in the end.  I can promise you that much.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 9, 2013)

I hope so. By the time they have finished pissing about with my DLA claim it will be time to be re-assessed again.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 9, 2013)

Received, after a month, a blinding report from my specialist. DLA form down the Post Office tomorrow. Do I just need proof of postage?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Received, after a month, a blinding report from my specialist. DLA form down the Post Office tomorrow. Do I just need proof of postage?


 
Some people say no, but I like to know.

If you don't want people in the post office opening it, mark it Private & Confidential


----------



## Libertad (Apr 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Some people say no, but I like to know.
> 
> If you don't want people in the post office opening it, mark it Private & Confidential


 
Do you mean I should send it registered then Minnie_the_Minx?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Well from what I've heard, it all goes to the same place in the Post Office and sending it that way doesn't guarantee it gets there any quicker, but I don't know whether that's true or not. 

However, regardless of that, I'd still send it Recorded Delivery or is it registered?  Just ask at the Post Office and tell them you want, either proof that it's been signed for or proof that it's been delivered.

Someone will come and correct me as I can't remember 

I know it cost me £5 or £6, but I'm sure there's cheaper methods (and mine was quite a bundle)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Libertad

Oh, just found this.  Another good reason to send it Recorded

http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.php?t=1309827


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Worth reading the whole thread btw.

Is Special Delivery different to Recorded?


----------



## Libertad (Apr 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Worth reading the whole thread btw.
> 
> Is Special Delivery different to Recorded?


 
Special Delivery appears to be the PO's equivalent of Couriered. Recorded is normal 1st class but signed for. I can't really afford the Special Delivery option.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Special Delivery appears to be the PO's equivalent of Couriered. Recorded is normal 1st class but signed for. I can't really afford the Special Delivery option.


 
Oh right.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 9, 2013)

Looks like I paid £6.50 and something went wrong with delivery, or rather, someone misplaced it or didn't sign for it, can't remember

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...wers-and-support.287181/page-65#post-11504727


and here's the info about Royal Mail opening claims  

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/dwp_and_atos_healthcare_use_of_r


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## purenarcotic (Apr 9, 2013)

You can ask for proof of postage for regular first / second class mail.  This should be free.  Was told this by my uni course admin manager as we have to post assignments in on Thursday. 

Recorded delivery obviously requires the signature at the other end, but if money is really tight this is a free way to get proof that you did post it should they quibble.


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## Greebo (Apr 10, 2013)

"Special delivery" (silver label) is the new name for registered post, which guarantees delivery by the next working day.  It can be used to prove that the DWP really have received your form etc and have probably got it in a pile.

"Signed for" (orange label) is the new name for recorded delivery and can be applied to either 1st or 2nd class.  It can be used to prove that the DWP really have received your form etc and have probably got it in a pile.  Usually a few pounds cheaper than special delivery.

Proof of posting (a certificate of posting) only proves that the form has left your hands, not that it reached who it was sent to.


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## WouldBe (Apr 10, 2013)

Just received my ESA50 form.


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## geminisnake (Apr 10, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> but I have requested for the assessment to be recorded.


 
 Did I have to do that on the original form they sent me?? I didn't request recording but did request a home assessment! I haven't heard from them yet and it's freaking me out. I am dreading the postman on a daily basis 

I got proof of posting for mine. Read somewhere the signed for thing was a waste of money <shrug>


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## treelover (Apr 10, 2013)

http://www.lgcplus.com/topics/benef...-ditched/5057200.article#.UWVY87x_D4o.twitter


Universal Credit not now digital by default, more signs that chaos looms...


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## Greebo (Apr 10, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Just received my ESA50 form.


FFS!


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## equationgirl (Apr 10, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Just received my ESA50 form.


Wait, didn't we just do this? Or was that your DLA?

If I'm confused by all this no wonder you are too. Fucking nightmare process.

Anyway, my advice today is fill in your name and address and mark it as 'started' on your to-do list.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 10, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Just received my ESA50 form.


wtf !


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 10, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Did I have to do that on the original form they sent me?? I didn't request recording but did request a home assessment! I haven't heard from them yet and it's freaking me out. I am dreading the postman on a daily basis
> 
> I got proof of posting for mine. Read somewhere the signed for thing was a waste of money <shrug>


It's ok, you can phone them up and ask for your HOME assessment to be recorded. I put home in capitals because it is worth reiterating to the person on the other end of the phone that you still want the assessment to be in your home. It is also worth phoning back a few days later to make sure they haven't sneakily ignored your instructions, and a final check a week before.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 10, 2013)

Actually, I seem to remember I read somewhere there was vexatious form sending being carried out by the DWP against claimants successful at tribunal/appeal stage.

One of their many petty things.


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## pat1968 (Apr 11, 2013)

Update on my medical appointment this week..Drugged myself up to the hilt for the event, threw up, had a couple of panic attacks, paid £10 petrol and £3.50 car parking ticket, get there and the receptionist tells my friend (who took a day off work and lost a days wages to take me there) that nobody would be able to see me as they didn't have my "medical notes". She said they will get back to me with another appointment date.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Apr 11, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> Update on my medical appointment this week..Drugged myself up to the hilt for the event, threw up, had a couple of panic attacks, paid £10 petrol and £3.50 car parking ticket, get there and the receptionist tells my friend (who took a day off work and lost a days wages to take me there) that nobody would be able to see me as they didn't have my "medical notes". She said they will get back to me with another appointment date.


 
Fucking shit state of affairs.  

Can you relaim the petrol and parking?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 11, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Actually, I seem to remember I read somewhere there was vexatious form sending being carried out by the DWP against claimants successful at tribunal/appeal stage.<snip>


Yes.  I knew several people with M.E. who got their next DLA form or IB form by nearly the same post as the one saying that they'd won their appeal.


----------



## pat1968 (Apr 11, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Fucking shit state of affairs.
> 
> Can you relaim the petrol and parking?


 
I don't know.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 11, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Wait, didn't we just do this? Or was that your DLA?
> 
> If I'm confused by all this no wonder you are too. Fucking nightmare process.
> 
> Anyway, my advice today is fill in your name and address and mark it as 'started' on your to-do list.


I was on JSA I've switched back to ESA. ESA won't accept the 6 month sick note that starts in November, they insist on a 3 month one. Called GP last mon to get a 3 month sick note from 15th Mar (which is when ESA is supposed to start from) went to collect it yesterday and he's made it out from 8th Apr.  So he's doing it again. Meanwhile no money is coming in as they won't start payments until they get the sick note. 

Meanwhile I'm still awaiting a date for my DLA tribunal.


----------



## yardbird (Apr 11, 2013)

WouldBe The grief and back & forth bollocks that you've had to put up with because of their stupidity and left hand/right hand etc. must have cost them loads of man-hours.
Stupid.Crazy.
Best of wishes with all this continuing shit mate,


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I was on JSA I've switched back to ESA. ESA won't accept the 6 month sick note that starts in November, they insist on a 3 month one. Called GP last mon to get a 3 month sick note from 15th Mar (which is when ESA is supposed to start from) went to collect it yesterday and he's made it out from 8th Apr.  So he's doing it again. Meanwhile no money is coming in as they won't start payments until they get the sick note.
> 
> Meanwhile I'm still awaiting a date for my DLA tribunal.


{{{WouldBe}}} sorry to hear this, utterly incompentent fucktarding arseholes. Your GP hasn't fucking helped either, he should have redone your sicknote there and then.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> I don't know.


You should be able to, given it was there mistake, and they could have rang you to let you know.

Put in for a recorded home assessment instead, this is causing you far too much stress


----------



## kittyP (Apr 11, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Pat, the very best of luck to you. I've not had to go through the hell of ATOS but I've read this thread and can tell you what will happen:
> 
> You will have your assessment and ATOS will pass you fit for work. They will lie, they will fabricate, they will 'forget' the recording equipment or it will be broken, etc. You will then appeal, the DWP will pretend to lose your paperwork, but as long as you persist, you will eventually get a fair hearing. So chin up and make sure you have at least two copies of everything.


 
This is kind of what I have resigned myself to happening. 
Can you record it yourself openly?

I had a meeting with my psych nurse yesterday and held it together OK until he brought up ATOS and I lost it. Could not stop sobbing for about 20 mins 
I hadn't realised quite how much it was having an effect on me deep down as well as on the surface.


----------



## kittyP (Apr 11, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> Update on my medical appointment this week..Drugged myself up to the hilt for the event, threw up, had a couple of panic attacks, paid £10 petrol and £3.50 car parking ticket, get there and the receptionist tells my friend (who took a day off work and lost a days wages to take me there) that nobody would be able to see me as they didn't have my "medical notes". She said they will get back to me with another appointment date.


 
Oh fucking hell!! 
That's terrible


----------



## kittyP (Apr 11, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> {{{WouldBe}}} sorry to hear this, utterly incompentent fucktarding arseholes. Your GP hasn't fucking helped either, he should have redone your sicknote there and then.


 
This ^ I have seen some shit GPs in my time but none of them have ever messed around with sick notes.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

kittyP said:


> This is kind of what I have resigned myself to happening.
> Can you record it yourself openly?
> 
> I had a meeting with my psych nurse yesterday and held it together OK until he brought up ATOS and I lost it. Could not stop sobbing for about 20 mins
> I hadn't realised quite how much it was having an effect on me deep down as well as on the surface.


{{{kittyP}}} big hug for you x x 

Please don't feel bad about this, if anything your notes will show that this assessment has been an extreme stressor for you and it's  helpful to have it noted by a medical professional especially one that knows how detrimental stress can be to mental health. If (and I mean IF) your case goes to a tribunal this note will show the tribunal panel how much this has affected you.

You can ask to record openly but various people have anecdotally reported that ATOS refuse to proceed with the assessment in that case. 

Now, yesterday I reading a recent case law report about the use of covert recordings and employment, and whilst the use of covert recordings is generally seen as morally distasteful, if the information recorded isn't a trade secret or confidential in some other other way to the business, it may not be illegal. In the context of ATOS, it could (and I say could because I'm not a lawyer) be argued that as the meeting is about you and your health condition that such a recording may not be illegal either. 

Note taking is perfectly legal, although there is at least once instance of ATOS power-tripping and insisting that her permission be ever-so-humbly asked before any notes are made - by a senior NHS manager who had accompanied his partner


----------



## kittyP (Apr 11, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> {{{kittyP}}} big hug for you x x
> 
> Please don't feel bad about this, if anything your notes will show that this assessment has been an extreme stressor for you and it's helpful to have it noted by a medical professional especially one that knows how detrimental stress can be to mental health. If (and I mean IF) your case goes to a tribunal this note will show the tribunal panel how much this has affected you.
> 
> ...


 
Fucking hell 
What a nightmare. 
They have no reason to stop you recording other than they want to be able to lie. 

Oh well, I still haven't heard from them.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Fucking hell
> What a nightmare.
> They have no reason to stop you recording other than they want to be able to lie.
> 
> Oh well, I still haven't heard from them.


Exactly. It's to stop the lies being exposed.

Shame it's not working


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 11, 2013)

pat1968 said:


> Update on my medical appointment this week..Drugged myself up to the hilt for the event, threw up, had a couple of panic attacks, paid £10 petrol and £3.50 car parking ticket, get there and the receptionist tells my friend (who took a day off work and lost a days wages to take me there) that nobody would be able to see me as they didn't have my "medical notes". She said they will get back to me with another appointment date.


 


when my friend went for his ATOS 'medical' we were given a claim form for travel expenses.  They allowed so much per mile for it.

Since this is their balls-up, I would have thought you would be able to claim for this as well.

I doubt you will be able to claim for friend's lost pay though.

CUNTS


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 11, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> when my friend went for his ATOS 'medical' we were given a claim form for travel expenses. They allowed so much per mile for it.
> 
> Since this is their balls-up, I would have thought you would be able to claim for this as well.
> 
> ...


On the other hand, if you don't ask you don't get...


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 12, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> {{{WouldBe}}} sorry to hear this, utterly incompentent fucktarding arseholes. Your GP hasn't fucking helped either, he should have redone your sicknote there and then.


 Despite being told I wouldn't get any payments until they got the sicknote (correctly filled in yesterday and posted off but forgot to photocopy it ) I've received a letter from the DWp today saying they are paying ESA from 15th mar. When that will arrive in my account is anybodys guess.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 12, 2013)

kittyP said:


> This ^ I have seen some shit GPs in my time but none of them have ever messed around with sick notes.


 It wasn't my usual GP that filled in the form, he's on holiday the inconsiderate bastard.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 12, 2013)

Got a text this morning "Do you know how to spell skitsaphenea?" Off a mate who's doing his ESA form. He'll probably be alright though, he's got a worker to act as an advocate and, TBH, the only people I've known who get through the assessment with minimal bother are those with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got a text this morning "Do you know how to spell skitsaphenea?" Off a mate who's doing his ESA form. He'll probably be alright though, he's got a worker to act as an advocate and, TBH, the only people I've known who get through the assessment with minimal bother are those with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.


Glad he's got an advocate, I hope he gets his support.


----------



## toggle (Apr 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Got a text this morning "Do you know how to spell skitsaphenea?" Off a mate who's doing his ESA form. He'll probably be alright though, he's got a worker to act as an advocate and, TBH, the only people I've known who get through the assessment with minimal bother are those with a diagnosis of schizophrenia.


 
if you're loopy enough, they won't even try for a medical.


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> if you're loopy enough, they won't even try for a medical.


 
Wibble, wobble, boing, fish, oblongs, etc...

If they do assess me, would that be a good time to stay up right through the night before, knock back a bit of your rocket fuel wine and relate in excruciating detail my nocturnal trauma resulting from the Dance Of The Aubergines unpleasantness..?


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 12, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Glad he's got an advocate, I hope he gets his support.


 
He has got support, at this homeless unit place he goes to, he's got not one, not to, but three dedicated workers, thanks for wishing him well though, I'll pass on your support  - He's quite a charming, but at the same time kinda hard work guy who's done far too much prison - He's like a hot potato, which does work in his favour a lot of the time coz people tend to green light him just to get him off their hands IYSWIM.


----------



## toggle (Apr 12, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Wibble, wobble, boing, fish, oblongs, etc...
> 
> If they do assess me, would that be a good time to stay up right through the night before, knock back a bit of your rocket fuel wine and relate in excruciating detail my nocturnal trauma resulting from the Dance Of The Aubergines unpleasantness..?


 
i'll take a video camera and post up some of the results


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'll take a video camera and post up some of the results


I foresee a YouTube hit video going viral...


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## toggle (Apr 12, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I foresee a YouTube hit video going viral...


 
so do I.

Cause i know what hapopened the last time he was overtired and the last time i let him near scrumpy. it involved naked dancing


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## equationgirl (Apr 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> so do I.
> 
> Cause i know what hapopened the last time he was overtired and the last time i let him near scrumpy. it involved naked dancing


With an aubergine??


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 12, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Wibble, wobble, boing, fish, oblongs, etc...
> 
> If they do assess me, would that be a good time to stay up right through the night before, knock back a bit of your rocket fuel wine and relate in excruciating detail my nocturnal trauma resulting from the Dance Of The Aubergines unpleasantness..?


 
Dance of the aubergines needn't be unpleasant though - A tub of vaseline, a bottle of amyl, curtains closed & job's a good un, I reckon.


----------



## Mindles$ (Apr 15, 2013)

I won my incapacity benefit/ESA tribunal, I achieved a total of 21 points.

Just got my DLA tribunal date to come now!

then it will be time to be re-assessed and go through all of this again


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## toggle (Apr 15, 2013)

Mindles$ said:


> I won my incapacity benefit/ESA tribunal, I achieved a total of 21 points.
> 
> Just got my DLA tribunal date to come now!
> 
> then it will be time to be re-assessed and go through all of this again


 
congratz.

although it seems horrible to congratulate someone for having to go to appeal to get what they should have been entitled to at the start.


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## equationgirl (Apr 15, 2013)

I am pleased you got there in the end Mindles$. Don't forget about backpay!


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## kittyP (Apr 15, 2013)

Mindles$ said:


> I won my incapacity benefit/ESA tribunal, I achieved a total of 21 points.
> 
> Just got my DLA tribunal date to come now!
> 
> then it will be time to be re-assessed and go through all of this again


 
Great stuffs


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## spirals (Apr 16, 2013)

10 hrs over 3 days with 2 peoples help and my DLA renewal form is finally ready to go off tomorrow. Now I have post form filling in blues as we've spent the best part of 3 days writing out the difficulties I have  They had better not lose the fucker!


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## Bakunin (Apr 16, 2013)

spirals said:


> Now I have post form filling in blues as we've spent the best part of 3 days writing out the difficulties I have


 
As my esteemed fellow poster and bit of posh Toggle will no doubt tell you, I absolutely hate having to list all the bits of me that don't work properly and the mental aspects of that are particularly upsetting because its a never-ending list of reminders of exactly why I don't and can't fit in with normal people.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 16, 2013)

spirals said:


> 10 hrs over 3 days with 2 peoples help and my DLA renewal form is finally ready to go off tomorrow. Now I have post form filling in blues as we've spent the best part of 3 days writing out the difficulties I have  They had better not lose the fucker!


 


and take a bloody copy! (even if you only keep it electronically)

(this will also help make sure you remember to tell the ATOS 'health professional*' all the stuff you have put on the form.)

* - whatever the heck that means


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 16, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> As my esteemed fellow poster and bit of posh Toggle will no doubt tell you, I absolutely hate having to list all the bits of me that don't work properly and the mental aspects of that are particularly upsetting because its a never-ending list of reminders of exactly why I don't and can't fit in with normal people.


 
I don't know if this'll help & I honestly don't mean it as a pisstake - But embrace the bits of you that don't work - They're what make you have something in common with Waylon Jennings in that song in which he sang "Well, I got my name painted on my shirt, I aint no ordinary dude, I don't _ha-ave_ to work". _You_ aint no ordinary dude & you don't have to work - A thing worth celebrating in my book.

FWIW there's no loss of dignity in putting down all the things that make you dysfunctional (or whatever you want to call it) on a DWP form, not in my eyes anyway - They don't give a toss whether you tell them your most intimate details or retain a stiff upper lip attitude - All you are is an NI number to them, and all they'll do is process your form and pass you or fail you according to the info you give them. So, the way I see it, it's your duty to yourself and the ones you love to write down every detail in order to get the butty you're entitled to - And there's no shame in guilding the lilly a bit if that gets you jam on the butty.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> As my esteemed fellow poster and bit of posh Toggle will no doubt tell you, I absolutely hate having to list all the bits of me that don't work properly and the mental aspects of that are particularly upsetting because its a never-ending list of reminders of exactly why I don't and can't fit in with normal people.


Nobody wants people to focus on only the negative aspects of themselves. I am more that the sum of my medical conditions, as are you.
{{{Bakunin}}}


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## toggle (Apr 17, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Nobody wants people to focus on only the negative aspects of themselves. I am more that the sum of my medical conditions, as are you.
> {{{Bakunin}}}


 
he is so in trouble for calling me his 'bit of posh' though.


----------



## spirals (Apr 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> As my esteemed fellow poster and bit of posh Toggle will no doubt tell you, I absolutely hate having to list all the bits of me that don't work properly and the mental aspects of that are particularly upsetting because its a never-ending list of reminders of exactly why I don't and can't fit in with normal people.


 
I think it would be a little bit easier if we knew we were going to get a fair hearing. Knowing what we do about atos just makes it all worse. I look at what has changed in my life, see my physical problems and needs/disabilities laid bare and think of the huge impact my conditions have on me and those who care about/for me and what could have been and they are going to look at it all and probably just stamp nil points all over it.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 17, 2013)

spirals said:


> I think it would be a little bit easier if we knew we were going to get a fair hearing.<snip>


Word.


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## wtfftw (Apr 17, 2013)

I've got post again. It's still referring to my 365 days running out (several months ago!). I'm actually waiting for a decision after my recent medical and in theory I should ring them to clarify that this isn't it but I don't trust that I'll get a correct answer (due to previous experience of being told nonsense). 

Stupid bollocks. 


Sorry, just venting. Carry on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> As my esteemed fellow poster and bit of posh Toggle will no doubt tell you, I absolutely hate having to list all the bits of me that don't work properly and the mental aspects of that are particularly upsetting because its a never-ending list of reminders of exactly why I don't and can't fit in with normal people.


 
Yep. When Greebo and I did my dad's Attendance Allowance form for him, we had to warn him about it. He ended up being pretty down for a week or so, before he managed to get a handle on it.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2013)

toggle said:


> he is so in trouble for calling me his 'bit of posh' though.


 
"My high-class partner" would have also garnered a few giggles, unfortunately.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 17, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and take a bloody copy! (even if you only keep it electronically)
> 
> (this will also help make sure you remember to tell the ATOS 'health professional*' all the stuff you have put on the form.)
> 
> * - whatever the heck that means


 
* It's code for someone who was in the scouts or girl guides and got a first aid badge. .


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## toggle (Apr 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> "My high-class partner" would have also garnered a few giggles, unfortunately.


----------



## kittyP (Apr 17, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I've got post again. It's still referring to my 365 days running out (several months ago!). I'm actually waiting for a decision after my recent medical and in theory I should ring them to clarify that this isn't it but I don't trust that I'll get a correct answer (due to previous experience of being told nonsense).
> 
> Stupid bollocks.
> 
> ...


 
Is ESA only supposed to last for 365 days then? 
What happens when it is up?


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 17, 2013)

toggle said:


>


 
This would be bad time for a selection of Lady Chatterley jokes wouldn't it?


----------



## toggle (Apr 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> This would be bad time for a selection of Lady Chatterley jokes wouldn't it?


 
a well aimed kick can add to your list if infirmities if you're that desperate


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 17, 2013)

toggle said:


> a well aimed kick can add to your list if infirmities if you're that desperate


 
I'll get rid of that bouquet of bluebells, then.


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 17, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Is ESA only supposed to last for 365 days then?
> What happens when it is up?


Contributions ESA is limited to 365 days and then becomes income assessed or just NI credits. I think the support group doesn't have the 365 days restriction.


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## kittyP (Apr 17, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> Contributions ESA is limited to 365 days and then becomes income assessed or just NI credits. I think the support group doesn't have the 365 days restriction.


 
OK. Cheers. 
Goodness it is all so confusing isn't it.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 17, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> * It's code for someone who was in the scouts or girl guides and got a first aid badge. .


*punches air*  In that case I'm overqualified to assess the whole damn lot of you - certificated and lasped Red Cross, ditto St John's Ambulance, plus (mostly) self-taught aromatherapy, massage, herbal medicine, and immunology.  

Not that I would; apart from the ethical side of it, the pay's too low to be worth it.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I'll get rid of that bouquet of bluebells, then.


Just hold them instead of wearing them.


----------



## kittyP (Apr 17, 2013)

Greebo said:


> *punches air* In that case I'm overqualified to assess the whole damn lot of you - certificated and lasped Red Cross, ditto St John's Ambulance, plus (mostly) self-taught aromatherapy, massage, herbal medicine, and immunology.
> 
> Not that I would; apart from the ethical side of it, the pay's too low to be worth it.


 
I have advanced first aid and am trained as a life guard if that helps?


----------



## Mindles$ (Apr 18, 2013)

toggle said:


> congratz.
> 
> although it seems horrible to congratulate someone for having to go to appeal to get what they should have been entitled to at the start.


 
Thank you toggle.  It has not been easy surviving on the reduced rate, especially when having to pay for public transport & taxi's to get to hospital appointments etc. There has been many times I have gone without food thanks to this mess.



equationgirl said:


> I am pleased you got there in the end Mindles$. Don't forget about backpay!


 
Thank You. haha yes the backpay....Apparantly it is re-paid within a month but they first send a letter which tell's you how much it is they owe.

I haven't received this letter or had my full allowance restored I am too drained to chase them for it in all honesty. I assume they will hold onto it as long as possible to accrue maximum interest. Bah! My back-dated money is going to be spent on getting a car, I hate public transport with a passion!



kittyP said:


> Great stuffs


 
Indeed. Although this entire ordeal has not done my mental health any good at all.


----------



## positiva (Apr 28, 2013)

Hello I am new here. Today I had my letter to go for Atos interview in May. I have to admit that I am really scared. My story, in 2010, i went through a horrific trauma, it happened when my daughter died, and there was negligence in the hospital. This caused me to have severe chronic PTSD. By October 12, I had to give up work. The nightmares, flashbacks, constant triggers, as well as a delay in my cognitive processing meant that work was impossible. 

Anyway - it was only in March/April 2013, that I started to get a connection to the outside world. News reports, I realised that there had been a change of Government. My background was always working with vulnerable people. I worked with homeless people, all of my working life. I feel that i have woken up in an alien, and different world, which I cannot relate to. I feel freaked out and disturbed by what I am reading. After 3 years pretty much walking and talking and being in a coma. Today I got the letter and their leaflet. 

I don't know if I will cope at all, with atos assessment. I am suffering with severe chronic ptsd, and am only just realising that the outside world exists. But it isn't the one that I left in 2009.....its a world with foodbanks? Attacks on the poor, and from what I can see a move towards the poor law in 19th Century England. I have sat still for hours today. Too scared to move. What will happen next? 

What happens, if you really wouldn't cope  with an atos interview, if it would really worsen your mental health, what do they do then? I have been on it for 6 months (ESA) contribution based. I always paid insurance and taxes. I am signed off sick by a GP. I didn't realise I was paying that vast amount of money each month (in tax and nat insurance) for no cover? .... can anyone tell me, what do they do, if to attend an interview would adversly affect your mental health? My PTSD is caused by medical negligence, so I really can struggle in a medical situation. Already I am trying to recover, and deal with changes in my world. Wanting to go back to 2009 when the world was different - which was where i last connected to the outside world. I would really appreciate it if anyone can help me? Thanks


----------



## Frances Lengel (Apr 28, 2013)

positiva said:


> Hello I am new here. Today I had my letter to go for Atos interview in May. I have to admit that I am really scared. My story, in 2010, i went through a horrific trauma, it happened when my daughter died, and there was negligence in the hospital. This caused me to have severe chronic PTSD. By October 12, I had to give up work. The nightmares, flashbacks, constant triggers, as well as a delay in my cognitive processing meant that work was impossible.
> 
> Anyway - it was only in March/April 2013, that I started to get a connection to the outside world. News reports, I realised that there had been a change of Government. My background was always working with vulnerable people. I worked with homeless people, all of my working life. I feel that i have woken up in an alien, and different world, which I cannot relate to. I feel freaked out and disturbed by what I am reading. After 3 years pretty much walking and talking and being in a coma. Today I got the letter and their leaflet.
> 
> ...


 

More than likely you _will_ have to go to an ATOS interview. Get someone to accompany you if at all possible - Be prepared to fail your initial test - Appeal though, it'll tek 6 months probably though - In the meantime get a sicknote off your GP and claim ESA at the appeal rate.

All the best, kid. Appeal though, I can't stress how important it is not to give up hope - The appeal proccess works. Stay strong XXXX


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## UhOhSeven (Apr 28, 2013)

Christ *Positiva*, that sounds grim as Hell

Re: Attending assessments. There's no getting out of it, but I _think_ you can arrange to be assessed in your own home if it makes the process easier.

Would that be any help?

Not much else to offer, I'm afraid, except my best wishes for your continued recovery.


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## positiva (Apr 28, 2013)

I had thought of that, being assessed in my home. The tricky thing is that because i am only just 'waking up' it could really freak me out. And likely would. As in my mind, things are the same as they were in 2009... am only just - seeing differences. And it is really frightening. 

I have serious chronic PTSD - not had mental health before, its all trauma related. I have to go really careful in medical situations. As it can re-trigger me. Depending what it is and the situation. If that happens, I disassociate. I don't really leave the house anymore. If I do, someone comes with me. 

_I am seeing my GP on Monday. I would imagine that she would say that no way, right now, should I be attending an interview, from what i have read, they seem to have no care for the welfare of people. Considering my daughter is dead, and I have spent 3 years of my life traumatised and in shock - (it was really bad, for a while, I could see someone's lips move but couldn't process sound, tomorrow was a white space, there was nothing but right now, when triggered felt a gaping hole in my stomach, nightmares, insomnia, flashbacks etc).... _

_So, NHS are aware, that any medical intervention, has to be step by step with me, as I am in recovery and it could damage my recovery. I guess they don't care about that? .... _

_Has anyone sued Atos yet for personal injury damages?  _


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## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2013)

positiva First, don't panic. You can request a home assessment. Give the number on the letter a call on Monday to arrange this. Make sure you have someone with you even if it's a home assessment.

Best of luck, we are here if you need us.

UhOhSeven I recommend you read the thread all through way through rather than jumping it at this point, especially if you are not sure what people can ask of the Atos process. The aim is to give consistent advice and you saying 'I _think_ you can ask for X' dilutes this somewhat.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2013)

positiva said:


> I had thought of that, being assessed in my home. The tricky thing is that because i am only just 'waking up' it could really freak me out. And likely would. As in my mind, things are the same as they were in 2009... am only just - seeing differences. And it is really frightening.
> 
> I have serious chronic PTSD - not had mental health before, its all trauma related. I have to go really careful in medical situations. As it can re-trigger me. Depending what it is and the situation. If that happens, I disassociate. I don't really leave the house anymore. If I do, someone comes with me.
> 
> ...


Not to my knowledge. But I'm sure it won't be too long before there is a claim. Your GP can write a letter to Atos and send it in, if you haven't done so already. Are you under the care of a consultant? You can ask them to write a letter too, if they haven't already done so.


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## Libertad (Apr 28, 2013)

This may be relevant to positiva 's question.



> A disabled man has won compensation from the government’s “fitness for work” contractor Atos Healthcare because of the weeks of distress, pain and fatigue he suffered after being forced to attend an inaccessible assessment centre.


 
http://www.aboutaccess.co.uk/article.php?id=413&item=Atos pays out to man left in pain and distress by assessment


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## positiva (Apr 28, 2013)

Thank you!! Have been really worried about it. Point is to me, if I wasn't sick, I would be at work. Am not at work, as I can't at the moment.

I am surprised more people haven't served personal injury claims on atos for damage caused to their health. If people did this (you can get no win no fee)... well, they would have to change their shoddy bullying practices at least!


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## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2013)

Libertad thanks for that link, the case centres around 'reasonable adjustments'.

positiva in your case, going by what you have posted, one reasonable adjustment might be a home assessment. Can you have a think about any others that might be made in order to make it easier for you to attend an assessment?


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## geminisnake (Apr 28, 2013)

I think this isn't the right thread for this but I dunno where the other one is

http://www.spinal.co.uk/news/atos-doctors-investigation


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## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think this isn't the right thread for this but I dunno where the other one is
> 
> http://www.spinal.co.uk/news/atos-doctors-investigation


I think this is as good a place as any without starting a separate thread


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## RedDragon (Apr 29, 2013)

I won my appeal today against being put into ESA Work Related Activity Group last August, which has required attending fortnightly interviews at the Job Centre in addition to the threat of being forced to attend a mandatory scheme. I was lucky to have a very sympathetic job centre advisor who guided me through the appeals procedure. However, I'm up for another Atos review in february and no doubt will have to go through the whole hassle again.


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I won my appeal today against being put into ESA Work Related Activity Group last August, which has required attending fortnightly interviews at the Job Centre in addition to the threat of being forced to attend a mandatory scheme. I was lucky to have a very sympathetic job centre advisor who guided me through the appeals procedure. However, I'm up for another Atos review in february and no doubt will have to go through the whole hassle again.


 
Well done on getting through the process


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## RedDragon (Apr 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Well done on getting through the process


I was lucky having such a understanding JCP client advisor who was embarrassed having to call me in for interviews, particularly as I had to use the job centres staff toilets to change my bloody dressings.


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> I was lucky having such a understanding JCP client advisor who was embarrassed having to call me in for interviews, particularly as I had to use the job centres staff toilets to change my bloody dressings.


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## kittyP (Apr 29, 2013)

RedDragon said:
			
		

> I was lucky having such a understanding JCP client advisor who was embarrassed having to call me in for interviews, particularly as I had to use the job centres staff toilets to change my bloody dressings.



Goodness me. 
Glad you have won but it never ends dose it?


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## melb (Apr 30, 2013)

Ok, after all your wonderful help a very odd thing has happened. I recieved my esa payment as usual on monday, and today, tuesday ive recieved another payment from esa jwp into my bank. a letter has also turned up saying: your claim for employment and support allowance, we have paid x amount into your account.
Does this mean i actually passed my medical? i cant see any other reason for them payin me extra money????


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## Frances Lengel (Apr 30, 2013)

melb said:


> Ok, after all your wonderful help a very odd thing has happened. I recieved my esa payment as usual on monday, and today, tuesday ive recieved another payment from esa jwp into my bank. a letter has also turned up saying: your claim for employment and support allowance, we have paid x amount into your account.
> Does this mean i actually passed my medical? i cant see any other reason for them payin me extra money????


 
I think so, coz I can't see any other reason for them paying you extra either - But I'm not an expert and I don't know the particulars of your case. The best thing, if you're in a position to, would be to go to the jobcentre and use one of their benefit enquiry phones to ask them what's going on.

The letter you got, did it not say anything along the lines of "Your claim for employment support allowance has been allowed, your claim will next be reviewed on suchadate"?


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## melb (Apr 30, 2013)

the letter didnt mention anything apart from my claim for employment and support alowance and then payment details. very odd lol. ill try and fone them later x thanks for ur help


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## melb (Apr 30, 2013)

Good news  was told on the fone today that i passed my atos medical and am being placed in teh WRAG. i would just like to thank everyone on this forum who has guided, supported and shown me encouragement in what i found to be a severely stressful time. keep up the good work


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## equationgirl (Apr 30, 2013)

melb said:


> Good news  was told on the fone today that i passed my atos medical and am being placed in teh WRAG. i would just like to thank everyone on this forum who has guided, supported and shown me encouragement in what i found to be a severely stressful time. keep up the good work


Hurrah!! Well done for getting through this process 

And thank you for the thank you!


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## equationgirl (May 4, 2013)

I'm appalled at this - Glasgow GPs have recommended that other GPs do not write letters of support for those going through the benefits system, saying it's too much avoidable additional work. How much are we talking about? 1-2 letters a day. Not an hour, a day.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22406739



> Dr John Ip, secretary of the Glasgow local [BMA] medical committee and a GP in Paisley, said he used to be asked to write one or two such letters a week for patients, but over the last year this had increased to one or two a day. The committee has advised GPs not to respond to these sort of requests.It said: "We are not in a position to administer nor to police the benefits system.
> "GPs are not resourced to provide this service. Time taken up with paperwork is time taken away from direct patient care.


 
Writing letters supporting patients through the benefits system IS part of patient care.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (May 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'm appalled at this - Glasgow GPs have recommended that other GPs do not write letters of support for those going through the benefits system, saying it's too much avoidable additional work. How much are we talking about? 1-2 letters a day. Not an hour, a day.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22406739
> 
> 
> ...


 

Maybe making them even more ill so they visit GP more often is their aim?


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## toggle (May 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'm appalled at this - Glasgow GPs have recommended that other GPs do not write letters of support for those going through the benefits system, saying it's too much avoidable additional work. How much are we talking about? 1-2 letters a day. Not an hour, a day.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22406739
> 
> 
> ...


 
bakunin's doctor called up at suppertime to let us know he had written a letter for him, that not onloy got atos to accept his request for a recorded home assessment, but also made them completely fail to schedule that assessment.

for every doctor calling for this kind of crap there are doctors who do quietly put in the work to support their patients.


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## equationgirl (May 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Maybe making them even more ill so they visit GP more often is their aim?


You'd think they'd be looking to minimise the effects of stress on long-term health conditions, but I guess that's too much to ask.


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## toggle (May 4, 2013)

and in a way, this doctor is right, there are too many parts of the benefit system that demand medical staff fill in forms and produce letters, that can then be ignored.


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## equationgirl (May 4, 2013)

toggle said:


> and in a way, this doctor is right, there are too many parts of the benefit system that demand medical staff fill in forms and produce letters, that can then be ignored.


But then, if they don't fill them in, it's not the medical staff that are affected.


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## toggle (May 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> But then, if they don't fill them in, it's not the medical staff that are affected.


 
i know.

they are being put into a position they shouldn't be in, but refusing to cooperate isn't going to help anyone


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## ViolentPanda (May 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'm appalled at this - Glasgow GPs have recommended that other GPs do not write letters of support for those going through the benefits system, saying it's too much avoidable additional work. How much are we talking about? 1-2 letters a day. Not an hour, a day.
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-22406739
> 
> 
> ...


 
Actually, having had this conversation with GPs at my surgery, I can understand why they're cutting up about it. Apparently each letter takes 30-60 minutes to rough, including checking your medical records (longer if they have to check back further than 8 years, because those records will need to be recalled from storage) and not including the initial consultation where you asked for the letter. Then there's the cost of having it typed up.
GPs don't get paid by the DWP for producing letters in support of their patients for benefits applications and renewals (they only get a minor fee if the DWP refers back to them for an opinion, and even then it's basically only pays administrative costs), so they've got three options - find some way to continue providing a time-intensive service free; charge for it (about £15 for a single-page letter, up to about £55 for a 3-pager) or don't do it at all. Obviously, some of them will carry on as they are now, but as I said, I can see why the BMA are making such a recommendation.
So, even 1 letter a day, that's 5 hours+ a week, and frankly, if your surgery has as many people who need dr's letters for this or that as mine has, you'd probably need to have a doctor working solely on doing letters and nowt else.


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## wtfftw (May 9, 2013)

I'm rang up today and it turns out that letter I got in early April was actually a decision letter. So I'm in wrag except they can't coerce me as I'm only on NI credits. And I'll be reassessed in a year. 

It would be helpful if the letter had said any of that instead of pages of wittering about my contributions running out (months previously).


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## Frances Lengel (May 9, 2013)

Mine's coming up to eight weeks since the tribunal found in my favour - I belled them today to make sure my claim hasn't been filed in the bin or somesuch. Apparently there's a backlog so it could take even longer than eight weeks to sort, but they can't say how much longer. Jesus.


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## Greebo (May 9, 2013)

wtfftw said:


> I'm rang up today and it turns out that letter I got in early April was actually a decision letter. So I'm in wrag except they can't coerce me as I'm only on NI credits. And I'll be reassessed in a year.<snip>


FFS!


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## WouldBe (May 16, 2013)

ESA form finally completed and should be going in the post this afternoon. 

Only 1 week late. 

Had a session at the ME clinic last Thursday. They told me it would be the last until I'd had another neurological appointment and the evoked potential tests done. Had a letter from my GP this morning to discuss the results of his chat with the neurologist. Looks like I won't be getting another consultation or tests done.  Then they have the cheek to ask me if it's me that wants to stay in the sick role.


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## Frances Lengel (May 16, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> ESA form finally completed and should be going in the post this afternoon.
> 
> Only 1 week late.
> 
> Had a session at the ME clinic last Thursday. They told me it would be the last until I'd had another neurological appointment and the evoked potential tests done. Had a letter from my GP this morning to discuss the results of his chat with the neurologist. Looks like I won't be getting another consultation or tests done.  Then they have the cheek to ask me if it's *me that wants to stay in the sick role*.


 
What? Ffs.


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## equationgirl (May 16, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> ESA form finally completed and should be going in the post this afternoon.
> 
> Only 1 week late.
> 
> Had a session at the ME clinic last Thursday. They told me it would be the last until I'd had another neurological appointment and the evoked potential tests done. Had a letter from my GP this morning to discuss the results of his chat with the neurologist. Looks like I won't be getting another consultation or tests done.  Then they have the cheek to ask me if it's me that wants to stay in the sick role.


That's not right, it's not like you've chosen this.

These ignorant sods make me very angry


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## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> What? Ffs.


 
One of the assumptions made by psychiatry about people with ME is that their illness is the physical manifestation of a subconscious mental desire to reap the benefits of being ill (familial concern, social security etc) by playing the "sick role" (a hoary old discredited sociological concept from between the wars). Of course, as with much speculative psychiatry, the proofs produced are generally from very small-scale sample groups that are neither randomised or controlled, so are worth about as much as a pint of dogsick.


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## Frances Lengel (May 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> One of the assumptions made by psychiatry about people with ME is that their illness is the physical manifestation of a subconscious mental desire to reap the benefits of being ill (familial concern, social security etc) by playing the "sick role" (a hoary old discredited sociological concept from between the wars). Of course, as with much speculative psychiatry, the proofs produced are generally from very small-scale sample groups that are neither randomised or controlled, so are worth about as much as a pint of dogsick.


 
I remember that's what that guy ZippyRN was on about - Didn't think it had any actual credibility though.


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## equationgirl (May 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I remember that's what that guy ZippyRN was on about - Didn't think it had any actual credibility though.


Ah yes, was just going to post the same thing.

I'm really not following you around the boards tonight, honest!


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## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I remember that's what that guy ZippyRN was on about - Didn't think it had any actual credibility though.


 
As a purely sociological concept, applied to examining the *possibility* of people playing such a role, it's fine, but it was never established as particularly accurate, hence it went into the wilderness that is failed sociological theory. 
So, to have it resurrected by self-serving psychiatrists as a _post hoc_ piece of reasoning as to why people with ME might be somatising their illness is a bit insulting to anyone who knows the history of that particular concept.  I even wrote to the main author of the first paper to advance the reasoning, and told him that, but he didn't reply to me. Psychiatrists hate being lectured by psychologists, especially if they're not clinical psychologists.


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## Frances Lengel (May 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> As a purely sociological concept, applied to examining the *possibility* of people playing such a role, it's fine, but it was never established as particularly accurate, hence it went into the wilderness that is failed sociological theory.
> So, to have it resurrected by self-serving psychiatrists as a _post hoc_ piece of reasoning as to why people with ME might be somatising their illness is a bit insulting to anyone who knows the history of that particular concept. I even wrote to the main author of the first paper to advance the reasoning, and told him that, but he didn't reply to me. Psychiatrists hate being lectured by psychologists, especially if they're not clinical psychologists.


 
Are you a pschyologist, chief, or just an enthusiastic amateur? I'm not having a go, I'm asking you btw.


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## J Ed (May 16, 2013)

Some BBC coverage at last
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22546036
​


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## J Ed (May 16, 2013)

Government and ATOS claims clearly contradicted by this


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## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> One of the assumptions made by psychiatry about people with ME is that their illness is the physical manifestation of a subconscious mental desire to reap the benefits of being ill (familial concern, social security etc) by playing the "sick role" (a hoary old discredited sociological concept from between the wars). Of course, as with much speculative psychiatry, the proofs produced are generally from very small-scale sample groups that are neither randomised or controlled, so are worth about as much as a pint of dogsick.


And this pisses me off because it plays into the whole idea of somatic illness (which I am sure ME is, at least partially) as being some kind of choice.


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## Greebo (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And this pisses me off because it plays into the whole idea of somatic illness (which I am sure ME is, at least partially) as being some kind of choice.


Existentialist, I'm afraid that you and I are going to have to disagree on that one as I know several people with even more severe M.E. than VP has, all of whom had depression and somatisation ruled out in the first few years of their illness.

I'll concede that there's an overlap between lethargy/fatigue and depression, but most people whose M.E. began after a series of infections (or one serious infection) or an exposure to a neurotoxin (eg organophosphates or mercury in a lab accident) have a clean bill of mental health.


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## wtfftw (May 17, 2013)

Or were happy energetic children.


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## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

It may be that I am seeing a particularly narrow spectrum of ME sufferers - my experience is solely with teenagers, and every one I have seen has had some prior history of emotional trauma. It may even be that I am seeing people diagnosed with ME who simply have symptoms that are concomitant with that diagnosis, or that ME is a spectrum disorder with multiple causes. I'm more than happy to bow to the views of those with broader experience of the area.


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## spirals (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And this pisses me off because it plays into the whole idea of somatic illness (which I am sure ME is, at least partially) as being some kind of choice.


 
I have ME and had to see a psychiatrist to rule out depression or somatisation as part of getting a diagnosis. In fact in the area where I live you won't get a diagnosis of ME if you have depression or show any signs of a mental illness. The problem with that is it's quite natural to get depressed about feeling very unwell 100% of the time, it's natural to grieve when you see how your life is changing and the losses that having a chronic illness can cause and the later you are diagnosed the more likely you are to be struggling with such issues so more weight is given to the whole it's in part due to mental illness.


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Are you a pschyologist, chief, or just an enthusiastic amateur? I'm not having a go, I'm asking you btw.


 
Masters in forensic psychology and criminology after much amateur enthusiasm. I'm fairly decently-read on sociology, criminology and psychology as a result of that, although not a practicing psychologist (clinical psychology doesn't "tweak my knobs").


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## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

Point(s) taken, though the underlying point I was making, which is that this biopsychosocial theory enables some (probably mostly non-medical types) to treat illness, somatic or otherwise, as a kind of lifestyle choice that can be tackled by beating people with a stick, is, I think, still valid.

Whether ME or similar illnesses are somatic or not, there is a school of thought - and the DWP seem to have leaped upon it - which regards them as a kind of avoiding strategy and aims to tackle that by forcing change via circumstances, rather than engaging the sufferer in a constructive process.

Which is, I think, totally wrong.

We know, for example, that post-heart attack outcomes are much improved if survivors can engage in a process of lifestyle change - exercise, dietary improvement, stopping smoking, etc. Even where that is clinically validated to a 100% certainty, we are entering a dangerous area when we start regarding it as our right (eg by virtue of the fact that the "hard-working taxpayer" is supporting such people) to force lifestyle change upon them. One of the prices we have to pay as a civilised society prepared to operate a welfare system is that we should allow people to be able to make those decisions for themselves, if for no other reason than that compliance is very much less likely to occur if people feel they are being browbeaten into such changes, rather than being enabled to make them for their own, positive, reasons.


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And this pisses me off because it plays into the whole idea of somatic illness (which I am sure ME is, at least partially) as being some kind of choice.


 
I reckon that's a definitional issue, in that if we're talking about "Ramsay M.E." or any of the succeeding clinical diagnostic definitions, it isn't (the diagnoses all exclude all manifestations of psychiatric illness/psychological distress), but if you're rolling on Wessely _et al's_ *re*-definitions, or the iterations that turn up in their research, then sure: a somatoform disorder might be an element in the disease process of some sufferers, although there's the "chicken and egg" quandary to adress there - how many had a somatoform disorder to start with, and how many of them developed a somatofrm disorder as a result of how they were treated by the medical world for having a disorder that the medical world didn't entirely acknowledge?


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> It may be that I am seeing a particularly narrow spectrum of ME sufferers - my experience is solely with teenagers, and every one I have seen has had some prior history of emotional trauma. It may even be that I am seeing people diagnosed with ME who simply have symptoms that are concomitant with that diagnosis, or that *ME is a spectrum disorder with multiple causes*. I'm more than happy to bow to the views of those with broader experience of the area.


 
This is something that those who don't buy the psychiatric route have been investigating for decades, mostly with little or no funding, 'cos it ain't sexy, and doesn't bring in research funding from anti-depressant manufacturers.
I'm also (unlike many other sufferers I know) willing to acknowledge that somatisation may be an element but, as I say above, it's hard to determine whether the chicken or the egg came first for many sufferers. Your "sub-group" (so to speak) of teenagers appear to have clear causation, but so many people don't. What many of them do have is a common history of repeated bacterial, viral or chemical physiological insult of one form or another (or even multiple forms).


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## ViolentPanda (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Point(s) taken, though the underlying point I was making, which is that this biopsychosocial theory enables some (probably mostly non-medical types) to treat illness, somatic or otherwise, as a kind of lifestyle choice that can be tackled by beating people with a stick, is, I think, still valid.
> 
> Whether ME or similar illnesses are somatic or not, there is a school of thought - and the DWP seem to have leaped upon it - which regards them as a kind of avoiding strategy and aims to tackle that by forcing change via circumstances, rather than engaging the sufferer in a constructive process.
> 
> Which is, I think, totally wrong.


 

Let's be plain. They haven't so much "leapt on it", as helped in manufacturing it, via their involvement with UNUM and other vested interests. I'm not conspriracising here, just drawing a conclusion from widely-available data about, for example, Sir Mansell Aylward, his Civil Service role, and his post-Civil Service roles; the membership roles of "interest groups" in the medical world that are pro-medical insurance insofar as it can bring them lucrative opportunities; the DWP's long-established interest in using external data from (as a completely offhand example) insurance companies to inform their payment strategies...well, the list is long!



> We know, for example, that post-heart attack outcomes are much improved if survivors can engage in a process of lifestyle change - exercise, dietary improvement, stopping smoking, etc. Even where that is clinically validated to a 100% certainty, we are entering a dangerous area when we start regarding it as our right (eg by virtue of the fact that the "hard-working taxpayer" is supporting such people) to force lifestyle change upon them. One of the prices we have to pay as a civilised society prepared to operate a welfare system is that we should allow people to be able to make those decisions for themselves, if for no other reason than that compliance is very much less likely to occur if people feel they are being browbeaten into such changes, rather than being enabled to make them for their own, positive, reasons.


 
I'd be happy to see CBT rolled out to every ME sufferer, although most of the people I know have already found coping strategies that don't involve playing the sick role. CBT can still help you to order your thinking about your illness process.  As for graded exercise therapy, I'm not a supporter of it. Not because it is prescriptive and/or oppressive, but because despite over a decade and a half of deployment, it hasn't shown any real benefit to anything except the ego of psychiatry.


----------



## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> This is something that those who don't buy the psychiatric route have been investigating for decades, mostly with little or no funding, 'cos it ain't sexy, and doesn't bring in research funding from anti-depressant manufacturers.
> I'm also (unlike many other sufferers I know) willing to acknowledge that somatisation may be an element but, as I say above, it's hard to determine whether the chicken or the egg came first for many sufferers. Your "sub-group" (so to speak) of teenagers appear to have clear causation, but so many people don't. What many of them do have is a common history of repeated bacterial, viral or chemical physiological insult of one form or another (or even multiple forms).


I really must stop responding to these complex discussions on my phone!

Yes, confusion of cause and effect is a big deal, and it's one I see a lot in my work - professionals often tend to cleave to one view or another (much as I probably appear to have been doing here), and struggle to accept the other.

It is conceivable that a lot of my clients with ME are depressed because of the effects of the ME - I am sure that happens. I came to this as a result of discussions with fellow professionals who were absolutely opposed to the idea of any kind of emotional cause to the ME symptoms, and found myself wondering whether they were right: when I then explored histories with clients with ME (including - not as a client - my own stepdaughter), it struck me that, in many of the cases, the ME had provided a way of being that rather neatly fitted their pre-existing emotional pathologies. However, it was notable that, in quite a few cases, including that of my stepdaughter, the ME had come on following a viral infection, which seemed to imply some kind of organic cause as well.

So, the nuanced version of my position is: I can fully accept that there is at least one possibility for an underlying cause for ME, but I set my face very much against the idea of excluding the potential for an emotional causative aspect, too; and, while there is no doubt that ME has physiological effects (pain, weakness, etc), it clearly also has the potential to have profound emotional effects (not entirely surprisingly) as well.

In the case of my stepdaughter, a sensitive approach to her difficulties, coupled with robust emotional support and some sometimes fairly assertive encouragement to "take risks" (like going outside for a walk) has resulted in improvements, and I'm delighted to say that she got through a 3 year university degree without any significant setbacks, and has functioned effectively for the last two years post-graduation as well. Her mum is sure that she still has ME episodes where she's a bit more low, emotionally and physically, though I tend to prefer not to pathologise those too much and just regard them - absent any significant increase in symptoms - as the kind of ups and downs we all have a bit of.


----------



## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Let's be plain. They haven't so much "leapt on it", as helped in manufacturing it, via their involvement with UNUM and other vested interests. I'm not conspriracising here, just drawing a conclusion from widely-available data about, for example, Sir Mansell Aylward, his Civil Service role, and his post-Civil Service roles; the membership roles of "interest groups" in the medical world that are pro-medical insurance insofar as it can bring them lucrative opportunities; the DWP's long-established interest in using external data from (as a completely offhand example) insurance companies to inform their payment strategies...well, the list is long!


Nothing I could possibly disagree with here!



ViolentPanda said:


> I'd be happy to see CBT rolled out to every ME sufferer, although most of the people I know have already found coping strategies that don't involve playing the sick role. CBT can still help you to order your thinking about your illness process. As for graded exercise therapy, I'm not a supporter of it. Not because it is prescriptive and/or oppressive, but because despite over a decade and a half of deployment, it hasn't shown any real benefit to anything except the ego of psychiatry.


I'd be wary of throwing CBT at it, to be honest. In situations where there was clearly no underlying emotional aspect, CBT might be a useful way of helping sufferers manage their response to the symptoms; but, in Maslow's words, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail", and I feel that the conflation of "CBT" and "therapy" runs the risk of treating everything as a cognitive process that CBT can address and thereby missing more complex patterns of thought that may underly that.

I use CBT, more than anything, as a "sticking plaster" approach, to help people get functional enough that they can operate a little better and find themselves able to engage in more in-depth therapeutic work. Sometimes, CBT is all they need, but if we premise the idea of providing therapy solely around CBT, we run the risk of missing the other stuff that might be going on, and leaving our client feeling blamed, misunderstood, or unheard. None of them good things.

That, incidentally, is one of the reasons I think IAPT was completely the wrong way to go, and it is beginning to look as if the evidence is bearing that out. Oh, how lovely it is to be right!


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## existentialist (May 17, 2013)

Oh, and...


ViolentPanda said:


> I reckon that's a definitional issue, in that if we're talking about "Ramsay M.E." or any of the succeeding clinical diagnostic definitions, it isn't (the diagnoses all exclude all manifestations of psychiatric illness/psychological distress),


One of the things that troubles me about a lot of my teenage ME clients is that most of them have had no kind of psychiatric assessment, or if they have, it has been rudimentary to the point of non-existence. So a "psychiatric" element is ruled out, but essentially only because it hasn't been looked for. That's a bit of a side-issue in the context of this discussion, though.


----------



## WouldBe (May 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, to have it resurrected by self-serving psychiatrists as a _post hoc_ piece of reasoning as to why people with ME might be somatising their illness is a bit insulting


 Despite doctors keep telling me I'm delusional I've never been refered to a psychiatrist. I was refered to a psychotherepist, who after several weeks of trying different techniques on me ruled out somatisation as a cause of my problems.

As far as I can see if it's not somatisation then it must be a physical cause yet the doctors can't be arsed to look (unless they lnow what it is, MS, and aren't allowed to diagnose it for financial reasons.)  

I didn't quite need a 6" nail to hold all the paperwork together but there was 32 pages of extra information sent in (33 if you include the index) and some of my medical notes I haven't got copies of yet so might have been able to send more in.  I could do with a months holiday after all that but I've got to chase up the progress on my DLA appeal.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 17, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Nothing I could possibly disagree with here!
> 
> 
> I'd be wary of throwing CBT at it, to be honest. In situations where there was clearly no underlying emotional aspect, CBT might be a useful way of helping sufferers manage their response to the symptoms; but, in Maslow's words, "When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail", and I feel that the conflation of "CBT" and "therapy" runs the risk of treating everything as a cognitive process that CBT can address and thereby missing more complex patterns of thought that may underly that.
> ...


 
I fail to see how cock & ball torture's going to help anyone. Especially when mentioned in the same breath as hammers & nails.


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## Bakunin (May 17, 2013)

Further proof of dodgy goings-n at everyone's favourite welfare benefit assessors:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/16/atos-doctor-claimants-biased-medical-assessments


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## laptop (May 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Further proof of dodgy goings-n at everyone's favourite welfare benefit assessors:
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/may/16/atos-doctor-claimants-biased-medical-assessments


 


> In a statement Atos said it "completely refuted allegations made by Dr Wood that Atos Healthcare acts inappropriately or unethically. We never ask healthcare professionals to make any changes to a report unless there are specific clinical quality issues identified within it.


 
No, ATOS.

You do not refute it.

You do not even make much of an attempt to *rebut* it.

You merely rebuff it.

Unqualified for this work. Off to Poundland with you...



> The Department for Work and Pensions said the claims had been "well-aired before".


 
And you, DWP, lied last time and the time before...


----------



## WouldBe (May 18, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I fail to see how cock & ball torture's going to help anyone. Especially when mentioned in the same breath as hammers & nails.


I don't know. Threatening to crush your balls or nail your cock to a plank of wood could be quite persuasive in people who want to stay in the sick role.


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## laptop (May 18, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I don't know. Threatening to crush your balls or nail your cock to a plank of wood could be quite persuasive in people who want to stay in the sick role.


 
Nah.



> You have demonstrated aptitude for having your cock nailed to a plank of wood but you have failed to show that you have applied for work having your cock nailed to a plank of wood and your benefits are suspended.


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## geminisnake (May 18, 2013)

So I've just got two letters from DWP. One says your benefit is changing to ESA, the other says about your Income Support. Plus a letter from the council asking about changes  I opened the council one first so was like wtf??

Apparently I have been placed in a WRAG but will get a separate letter, so 8 pages of nothing has changed except the name and the WRAG thing.Can someone what the WRAG thing is?

So does this mean I don't have to go to an ATOS thing?


----------



## equationgirl (May 18, 2013)

If you've been placed in the WRAG they'll be looking to get you into work over the next 12 months. You can appeal this decision and ask to be placed in the support group if you want.

Here is a useful explanation of the WRAG activities:
http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/viewtopic.php?f=34&t=651&sid=c99e058fe9aead3e50c9d0292971f373

It also points out that unless your progress for improvement is within 3-6 months, you can't be compelled to carry out any work-related activities.

I don't think you have to go to an ATOS assessment, geminisnake, because you've been put into the WRAG straight away. This is A GOOD THING


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 18, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So I've just got two letters from DWP. One says your benefit is changing to ESA, the other says about your Income Support. Plus a letter from the council asking about changes  I opened the council one first so was like wtf??
> 
> Apparently I have been placed in a WRAG but will get a separate letter, so 8 pages of nothing has changed except the name and the WRAG thing.Can someone what the WRAG thing is?
> 
> So does this mean I don't have to go to an ATOS thing?


 
I reckon equtiongirl is right - Unless the letter specifically says you have to go to a medical, you won't have to. You can appeal to be put in the support group and it's worth doing - You've got the right to appeal so use it. Realisticly though, _everyone _gets put in the work group - Unless you're a head in a jar you probably won't get into the support group.

E2a - The WRAG thing just means you've got to go and see some clown once a month for an hour - It's a piece of piss, a mere formality. You shouldn't have to but these are the hoops.


----------



## geminisnake (May 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> It also points out that unless your progress for improvement is within 3-6 months, you can't be compelled to carry out any work-related activities.


 
Well I don't think the ABI and its affects are suddenly going to disappear after 10 years are they??  So once I have calmed down I will read the link, thanks 
If it's only once a month and 1 to 1 I could try it, it's not going to make a stuff of difference, the fact is there are no jobs in this area and the last lady I spoke to at the JC knew that and was fine with it!


----------



## equationgirl (May 18, 2013)

Sounds like in your case appealing for support group might be more hassle than it's worth.


----------



## Libertad (May 18, 2013)

When I was put into the WRAG I should have appealed it but I didn't know that at the time. I was very lucky in that the DWP staffer who conducted my first interview knew immediately that I should have been placed in the Support Group and gave me a DLA claim pack.

My subsequent interviews have taken place by telephone at four month intervals.
It's all so random and as such not everyone gets the decision that they should, but we know this.


----------



## laptop (May 18, 2013)

Libertad said:


> When I was put into the WRAG I should have appealed...


 
Why? Is there a consequence *beyond* time-wasting interviews? Or is it just that you can't get to interviews?


----------



## Libertad (May 18, 2013)

laptop said:


> Why? Is there a consequence *beyond* time-wasting interviews? Or is it just that you can't get to interviews?


 
I'm having chemo. and shouldn't really have to be dealing with this shit but as it turned out the person who initially interviewed me appeared to be of the same opinion. Quite brave of them to circumvent the decision made by the DWP "Decision Maker".


----------



## laptop (May 18, 2013)

Libertad said:


> I'm having chemo. and shouldn't really have to be dealing with this shit but as it turned out the person who initially interviewed me appeared to be of the same opinion. Quite brave of them to circumvent the decision made by the DWP "Decision Maker".


 
Right. So, for people who can get to the interviews, WRAG status is merely annoying and time-wasting?

Congratulations on finding a human who brought their heart to work


----------



## Jackobi (May 18, 2013)

One of the major differences between the Work Related Activity Group and the Support Group is the WRAG's 365 day limit to contribution-based ESA, there is no such limit imposed on the support group. For single claimants it has little impact, but for couples it can reduce or cease entitlement to ESA completely, particularly where one partner works or also claims ESA.


----------



## geminisnake (May 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Sounds like in your case appealing for support group might be more hassle than it's worth.


 
It does but I'm not sure the wrag thing will work either. I won't remember to do stuff and the idea of getting sanctioned freaks me out, which leads to more stress, leading to even less memory. Vicious circle!!

I don't understand the contributions bit either. I haven't paid tax/contributions for over 10 yrs


----------



## equationgirl (May 18, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> It does but I'm not sure the wrag thing will work either. I won't remember to do stuff and the idea of getting sanctioned freaks me out, which leads to more stress, leading to even less memory. Vicious circle!!
> 
> I don't understand the contributions bit either. I haven't paid tax/contributions for over 10 yrs


You can appeal if it want to - I have to admit I couldn't see how putting you in the WRAG would help given your circumstances. You could ask for the appeal documents and see if you feel up to filling them in. You'll still get ESA whilst you appeal.


----------



## geminisnake (May 18, 2013)

I'm going to try and ignore it til Monday. Can't do anything atm anyway eh?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2013)

laptop said:


> Nah.


 

Quite right too. The claimant could obviously have got a job as a performance artist along the lines of Bob Flanagan, super-masochist!


----------



## WouldBe (May 21, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> ESA form finally completed and should be going in the post this afternoon.
> 
> Only 1 week late.
> 
> Had a session at the ME clinic last Thursday. They told me it would be the last until I'd had another neurological appointment and the evoked potential tests done.* Had a letter from my GP this morning to discuss the results of his chat with the neurologist. Looks like I won't be getting another consultation or tests done.*  Then they have the cheek to ask me if it's me that wants to stay in the sick role.


Saw the GP yesterday and neurologist won't do evoked potential tests saying there's no need as MRI is gold standard for diagnosing MS. Funny that the MS society say that evoked potentials can show up nerve damage that a MRI won't pick up. GP is contacting ME clinic to let them know and see if they will continue treatment.

Any one know of a MS friendly hospital where I can get these tests done privately?


----------



## WouldBe (May 22, 2013)

ATOS received ESA form on 20th. I've received a letter from DWP today saying that as I haven't returned the form in time (it was a week late) they have stopped my benefits again. 

Do I need to appeal this or do I wait as ATOS have received the form?


----------



## Zabo (May 22, 2013)

"Two people with mental health problems, who claimed the test for sickness benefit would discriminate against them, have won their legal challenge. A judge ruled the Work Capability Assessment puts people with mental illness, autism and learning difficulties at a substantial disadvantage.

The process is too difficult for many to navigate, a court heard.

The Department for Work and Pensions has said it will appeal the decision.

Work Capability Assessment tests, which measure a person's entitlement to Employment and Support Allowance, were introduced in 2008 and are carried out on behalf of the government.

The law requires the government to make reasonable adjustments to avoid discrimination.

At Wednesday's hearing, the Upper Tribunal - which is equivalent to the High Court - was told people who have conditions that mean they lack insight can struggle to gather the right documents, including doctors reports, needed for a successful claim.

Lawyers for the two, whose identities have been protected, argued that where a claim is from someone with a mental health problem, it should be the government's responsibility to seek additional medical evidence."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-22620894


----------



## Greebo (May 22, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> ATOS received ESA form on 20th. I've received a letter from DWP today saying that as I haven't returned the form in time (it was a week late) they have stopped my benefits again.
> 
> Do I need to appeal this or do I wait as ATOS have received the form?


Ring up and say that you've got proof that ATOS received the form in time, then back this up with a letter (stating the time, date, first name and position of the person to whom you spoke) saying the same thing.  Send this signed for, and keep a copy.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 22, 2013)

Zabo said:


> "Two people with mental health problems, who claimed the test for sickness benefit would discriminate against them, have won their legal challenge.


 




Zabo said:


> The Department for Work and Pensions has said it will appeal the decision.


----------



## Celt (May 22, 2013)

Just a further link on the legal challenge which was won as referred to above by puddy tat.
http://www.rethink.org/news-views/2...test-is-unfair-for-people-with-mental-illness


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## 8115 (May 22, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


>


 
Liked for the first bit, not the second.


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## geminisnake (May 22, 2013)

Ok, when I originally got my ESA form I don't recall anything about it saying you are putting in a new claim or whatever, but when I went to the council the guy there said you must have put in a new claim. No, I said, they sent me a form and told me to fill it in and I did.
So should they not have made it a bit clearer that I was considered to be claiming something?  This has totally stressed me out and I've ended up with bank charges because I forgot things. I've not had bank charges in about 10 years! since my dad died!


----------



## Greebo (May 22, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> <snip>So should they not have made it a bit clearer that I was considered to be claiming something?  This has totally stressed me out and I've ended up with bank charges because I forgot things. I've not had bank charges in about 10 years! since my dad died!


Yes.

ViolentPanda


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Ok, when I originally got my ESA form I don't recall anything about it saying you are putting in a new claim or whatever, but when I went to the council the guy there said you must have put in a new claim. No, I said, they sent me a form and told me to fill it in and I did.
> So should they not have made it a bit clearer that I was considered to be claiming something?  This has totally stressed me out and I've ended up with bank charges because I forgot things. I've not had bank charges in about 10 years! since my dad died!


 
I'm presuming you were claiming Incapacity Benefit, and your claim came due for renewal, so they sent you an ESA form. Is that the case?


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## spirals (May 23, 2013)

FFS! I could cry  I sent in my DLA renewal pack about 8 weeks ago. A couple of weeks later I got a call asking why I signed it name B as opposed to name A. I told them that I had got married nearly 2 years ago and informed them of my name change at the time. They said they hadn't changed the name and could I send them a copy of the marriage certificate in the post. I said I would and asked if it needed to be in urgently and would it delay my form being processed? They told me no and it was just for their records. I phoned today to double check what needed to be in the covering letter and to ask how my claim was going as it ends very soon and they inform me that they haven't even registered it as they need the copy of my marriage certificate to proceed! So thats completely opposite to what they told me when they phoned


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## WouldBe (May 23, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Ring up and say that you've got proof that ATOS received the form in time, then back this up with a letter (stating the time, date, first name and position of the person to whom you spoke) saying the same thing. Send this signed for, and keep a copy.


The letter was late. It was due back on the 9th May but I hadn't completed it until the 16th and posted it that afternoon and that's as fast as I could physically and mentally fill it in. I tried to phone the DWP on the 8th but after half an hour on hold I was falling asleep from exhaustion so hung up.

I phoned the DWP yesterday and was asked bluntly why I didn't send the form back to the DWP. Durr that's because the envelope provided was addressed to ATOS  @ DWP. They suggested I write to the DWP explaining why the form was late. Their own DWP work psychologist report already explains this due to lack of concentration, poor memory, slow mental processing speed and fine motor control. (had they bothered to read it). 

Can I do them under the disability discrimination act for taking advantage of my disabilities?


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 23, 2013)

Just had a phone call from a very helpful woman at the DWP. Turns out they haven't recieved the paperwork from the tribunal so I'll have to fax it off tomorrow. I rang this morning from the jobcentre coz the whole gig's been taking too long (getting on ten weeks since I won my appeal) and (luckily) I got someone who knew their arse from their elbow and had someone look into it and bell me back.


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## geminisnake (May 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'm presuming you were claiming Incapacity Benefit, and your claim came due for renewal, so they sent you an ESA form. Is that the case?


 
I really don't know. I think it was called Income something Incapacity because I haven't paid enough stamps but the letter dated 14th May called it Income Support. I originally claimed a long time ago(10+ yrs) but it was February/March.

I certainly didn't know it had to be renewed.


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## ViolentPanda (May 23, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I really don't know. I think it was called Income something Incapacity because I haven't paid enough stamps but the letter dated 14th May called it Income Support. I originally claimed a long time ago(10+ yrs) but it was February/March.
> 
> I certainly didn't know it had to be renewed.


 
Income Support due to incapacity was what was previously paid to people who hadn't paid enough stamps. Basically Income Support plus a "disability premium" that brought it up to the same level as Incapacity Benefit.

I suspect that you were sent the form "on spec" because you're on Income Support + the disability premium rather than Incapacity Benefit, which is why they're treating it as a fresh claim rather than a transition - there's no assumption of an existing claim or any protection with regard to Income Support, while there is with Incapacity Benefit.

So, have they stopped paying you "because you made a fresh claim"? If so, on what basis, FFS? If they've provided you with no info, just stopped putting money in your bank, then you need to be tearing their arses off.
IIRC you don't have much access to a CAB, so you'll probably need to phone them yourself, and ask them to take you through the sequence of events of the last 3 months or so with reference to your claim, so that you at least know what has happened, and *then* to send you copies of all relevant records pertaining to your claim that they have on file, otherwise you'll have no way of knowing wtf they're on about.
That'll give you the basis for taking things further, 'cos until you know wtf they're on about, you've got no way to fight back.


----------



## geminisnake (May 23, 2013)

No they haven't stopped the money, I just thought it was a bit off that I wasn't made aware that I was making a new claim. It starts in June apparently and I think I'm getting more than I 'should' be because they can't lower my income 

I've been put in the WRAG thing and will get another letter about that? But equationgirl said on the last page that's meant to be for people who they want to be working asap.
My brain injury and symptoms aren't going to go away and I'm just confused at to what is going on. I may go down to the local JC and ask for an appt so they can explain it in simple terms!
Can email you scanned bits of the letter so you can see what I mean if you like?

I'm just a bit wary of 'rocking the boat' in case they realise they've made a mistake and then they screw me over iykwim.

Eta, if they had stopped my money I'm not sure I'd even be fit for posting here. My head is mince and it's kinda going my way


----------



## Greebo (May 23, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> <snip>They suggested I write to the DWP explaining why the form was late. Their own DWP work psychologist report already explains this due to lack of concentration, poor memory, slow mental processing speed and fine motor control. (had they bothered to read it).
> 
> Can I do them under the disability discrimination act for taking advantage of my disabilities?


Worth a try if you've got the energy to do it, I suppose.  Just for the principle of it.


----------



## kittyP (May 23, 2013)

Zabo said:


> "Two people with mental health problems, who claimed the test for sickness benefit would discriminate against them, have won their legal challenge. A judge ruled the Work Capability Assessment puts people with mental illness, autism and learning difficulties at a substantial disadvantage.
> 
> The process is too difficult for many to navigate, a court heard.
> 
> ...


 
So with stuff like this happening, will we realistically see any changes? 
I have still not heard anything from ATOS since sending off my ESA20 (?) form and am getting more and more frightened that an assessment will be coming soon. 
Especially as I am now having a fight with the CMHT that are supposed to be the ones helping me. 
Received a letter saying that my ESA was being reduced by £10 a week as of June (I think) but with no explanation as to why. 
Two of us are living off what most people get for one person. 
We have had to go to a debt management charity to take over our money issues as it is totally out of control. 
I do not know how much more strength I have.


----------



## WouldBe (May 24, 2013)

I wrote to the DWP yesterday explaining why my ESA form was late and sent it 1st class recorded delivery. They haven't received it yet so probably won't get it until Tuesday. 

I signed the letter off with "This whole process is making me more depressed, more suicidal and I'm rapidly losing the will to live."   Don't know if it will make any difference but I thought I'd put it in anyway.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 24, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Don't know if it will make any difference but I thought I'd put it in anyway.


 
nah, they won't gve a shit unforunately


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 24, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> No they haven't stopped the money, I just thought it was a bit off that I wasn't made aware that I was making a new claim. It starts in June apparently and I think I'm getting more than I 'should' be because they can't lower my income


 
Right, so basically they've done the same as with people on Incapacity Benefit. That's okay.



> I've been put in the WRAG thing and will get another letter about that? But equationgirl said on the last page that's meant to be for people who they want to be working asap.


 
They can't *compel* you to work, only encourage you to undertake "work-related activity". If there's no work-related activity consonant with your injury and symptoms, well, you can't be compelled or coerced into doing things you're not capable of.



> My brain injury and symptoms aren't going to go away and I'm just confused at to what is going on. I may go down to the local JC and ask for an appt so they can explain it in simple terms!


 
I suspect that you were put in the W-RA group because the decision-maker is ambivalent about your brain injury, so they've put you in the group where they can reassess you the easiest. 



> Can email you scanned bits of the letter so you can see what I mean if you like?


 
Please. I'll PM you an e-mail address.



> I'm just a bit wary of 'rocking the boat' in case they realise they've made a mistake and then they screw me over iykwim.


 
Yep. We all live in fear of that, I'm afraid.



> Eta, if they had stopped my money I'm not sure I'd even be fit for posting here. My head is mince and it's kinda going my way


 
As usual, the bastards cause loads of stress, when a better-written letter could stop that happening.


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 24, 2013)

> They can't *compel* you to work, only encourage you to undertake "work-related activity". If there's no work-related activity consonant with your injury and symptoms, well, you can't be compelled or coerced into doing things you're not capable of.


 
Really? I had heard (= read in reputable sources) that you could be forced into unpaid work for an indefinite period if you were in WRAG, on pain of having your money cut.

Not being snippy, but could you provide a link to a source that backs this up, please?

Apologies if I've missed such a link elsewhere in the thread, it's a big thread and reading it all is beyond me.


----------



## WouldBe (May 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Really? I had heard (= read in reputable sources) that you could be forced into unpaid work for an indefinite period if you were in WRAG, on pain of having your money cut.


I don't see how. The WRAG group is for people who *are* unfit for work but may be *if* their condition improves in the future. They can't force you to work if they have deemed you unfit.


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I don't see how. The WRAG group is for people who *are* unfit for work but may be *if* their condition improves in the future. They can't force you to work if they have deemed you unfit.


 
After many years of fruitful experience with them, I am not assuming that there is much logic to DWP rules.

Anyway, a decisive source would be appreciated, one way or t'other.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> After many years of fruitful experience with them, I am not assuming that there is much logic to DWP rules.
> 
> Anyway, a decisive source would be appreciated, one way or t'other.


 
So far, the only compulsory element to ESA WRAG is to attend "work-focused interviews". Work Programme activities are not compulsory, they're voluntary*. Of course, that doesn't mean that your adviser won't mislead you.

*source: www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/*work*-programme-faqs.pdf‎


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

Thanks VP.


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## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

Actually, not as straightforward as all that: Now that I look at that link, it says (top of p3):



> "Those ESA claimants who are closest to the labour market are *required to attend the programme*. This group is defined as claimants in the Work Related Activity Group with a WCA-related prognosis of up to 12 months who are receiving income-related ESA."


 
(My emphasis)


----------



## equationgirl (May 25, 2013)

According to this DWP document (Annex A, p6), it depends whether you are classed a mandatory participant or a voluntary participant of ESA, which will depend on your individual circumstances and medical prognosis. Most of them seem to fall in the voluntary category though:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wp-pg-chapter-2.pdf


----------



## laptop (May 25, 2013)

I had a look at the FAQ and it didn't seem to specify whether "attend the programme" means "go to pointless interviews" or "stack shelves in Poundland"


----------



## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

I was in wrag for a year and had to attend two interviews at the job centre. (then they told me there wouldn't be any more as I was moving to NI stamps only so basically couldn't be coerced ) 


So if you're in the wrag and worried, you may not need to be.


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## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

> as I was moving to NI stamps only so basically couldn't be coerced


 
Eh? You went _from_ income-related ESA _to_ contributions-related ESA?

I didn't realise that was possible. How does that work then?

My understanding was that they used up your NI contributions first (for a year) then stuck you on IR ESA.


----------



## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

If you don't qualify for income related ESA you get NI stamps only. I was in wrag for my contributions year.


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## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

OK, I'm obviously missing something here. In my defence, I'm quite tired and slightly stoned.

How did you move from IR ESA to CR ESA? CR usually becomes IR after one year, and you never move from IR to CR, only the reverse.


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## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

I am also tired and stoned and drunk. 

I was on contributions - for a year during which I was known wrag and attended work focused interviews. After that I would be moved to IR except my dear poor boyfriend earns money so I'm now on stamps only. 

Does that make it clear?


----------



## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

I did not move from IR to CR. I'm not entirely sure how I gave the impression that I did but hey, we're both stoned. I can't be arsed to look back a page and check what I said. 


Edit: check back a page. It's the same page.   main. And I still haven't checked. I'm watching the voice...


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

> *I was in wrag for a year* and had to attend two interviews at the job centre. (*then* they told me there wouldn't be any more as I was moving to NI stamps only so basically couldn't be coerced )


 
(My emphases)

So you were in WRAG for a year but *not* on IR-ESA? Have I got that right?

(Apologies for tugging at this, it's confusing me).


----------



## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

Yeah hang on. 

CR to IR (IR =stamps only if above income level) is what I said.


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## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> (My emphases)
> 
> So you were in WRAG for a year but *not* on IR-ESA? Have I got that right?
> 
> (Apologies for tugging at this, it's confusing me).


 
Yes. While on CR you can be in wrag. CR does not mean support group.


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## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

Support group - money without being income assessed and no wrag. 
CR - for one year if in wrag then
IR - and wrag but if above income level and stamps only then no wrag activity. 

Does that make sense?


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 25, 2013)

It makes sense in its own way, but doesn't appear to be answering the question I asked!

I give up -- more a reflection on my dwindling energy than on you.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I suspect that you were put in the W-RA group because the decision-maker is ambivalent about your brain injury, so they've put you in the group where they can reassess you the easiest.


 
Quite probably.  When I asked for decision maker's letter, absolutely *nothing *was noted down about his brain injury, despite all those pages I typed about it , only his pain with walking


----------



## wtfftw (May 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> It makes sense in its own way, but doesn't appear to be answering the question I asked!
> 
> I give up -- more a reflection on my dwindling energy than on you.


 
I did not go from IR to CR. 

I'll stop now. We can resume (if you like) when sober.


----------



## Frances Lengel (May 25, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> It makes sense in its own way, but doesn't appear to be answering the question I asked!
> 
> I give up -- more a reflection on my dwindling energy than on you.


 
What wtfftw meant, if I've got it right is that once her year of Contributions Related ESA was up, she now finds herself unable to claim Income Related coz of her partners income. However, she's still registered as a claimant in order to make sure she gets her National Insurance credits even though she isn't entitled to any actual money. It's to avoid gaps in your NI which could fuck you up when you hit 65.


----------



## equationgirl (May 25, 2013)

I certainly get the impression that the decision makers ignore anything they don't understand.


----------



## Bakunin (May 26, 2013)

More mindless cruelty from ATOS and the DWP:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/linda-wootton-double-heart-lung-1912498


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 26, 2013)

> A Department for Work and Pensions spokesman said: “Our sympathy goes out to Mrs Wootton’s family.  A decision on whether someone is well enough to work is taken following a thorough assessment and after consideration of all supporting medical evidence.”


 
I can't work out whether this is a confession of brutality or incompetence. And I'm not even sure that there's a difference as far as the DWP goes.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 26, 2013)

> Linda also appealed but was rejected despite her history.


 




> Linda’s was at a test centre in Southend, eight miles from her home in Rayleigh, Essex, on January 3. “She couldn’t even drive herself because she kept feeling faint,” said Peter, *who was not allowed in to support her.*


 


> A Department for Work and Pensions spokesman said: “Our sympathy goes out to Mrs Wootton’s family. A decision on whether someone is well enough to work is taken following a thorough assessment and after consideration of all supporting medical evidence.”


The normal shite. Suppose she didn't supply enough letters from doctors/consultants


----------



## Greebo (May 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> <snip>The normal shite. Suppose she didn't support enough letters from doctors/consultants


 
It doesn't help that the DWP seldom contacts doctors etc even if you give them permission, and any letters from those doctors etc tend to list what you've got instead of how it impairs or hinders you.


----------



## Greebo (May 26, 2013)

laptop said:


> I had a look at the FAQ and it didn't seem to specify whether "attend the programme" means "go to pointless interviews" or "stack shelves in Poundland"


 
All the better to keep you worried.


----------



## equationgirl (May 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> The normal shite. Suppose she didn't supply enough letters from doctors/consultants


 
I think we've seen enough evidence that even when you supply whatever you can the DWP ignores it anyway.


----------



## Bakunin (May 26, 2013)

Bad news for ATOS and the DWP, great news for the mentally ill:

http://www.leftfutures.org/2013/05/judges-overturn-atos-work-capability-assessment/


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 26, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I think we've seen enough evidence that even when you supply whatever you can the DWP ignores it anyway.


 
Yeah, but that's the DWP's official line to the public.  Blame everyone for not supplying enough information (even if they did)

Can't understand why she didn't win appeal though 

What a sad end to her life, fighting those fuckers


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 26, 2013)

Don't get the fizz out of the fridge just yet Bakunin -- the cunting DWP is appealing the ruling.


----------



## kittyP (May 28, 2013)

Just got an email from 38 degrees say the conservascum are floating an idea to limit the amount of times we can see our gp. 
If we have long term health conditions or sick kids we could run out of visits and have to pay to go elsewhere 

How true is this? How viable? 
It made me cry thinking about how fucked up that is.


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> How true is this? How viable?
> It made me cry thinking about how fucked up that is.


 
Don't stress just yet -- it's a Tory thinktank proposal that has already annoyed the healthcare pros. I sincerely doubt it has a chance of making it as far as policy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10081220/Conservatives-consider-limit-on-GP-visits.html



> _[limiting GP appointments]_ is one of a number of options grassroots members were asked to look at in a consultation document, Local Health Discussion Brief, posted on the Conservative Policy Forum (CPF) website last night.
> 
> Among them were whether GPs should take greater responsibility for out of hours care in their area - something Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt addressed earlier this week - and if seeing a GP for a routine appointment in the evening or at the weekend is a luxury the country cannot afford.
> 
> ...


----------



## kittyP (May 28, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Don't stress just yet -- it's a Tory thinktank proposal that has already annoyed the healthcare pros. I sincerely doubt it has a chance of making it as far as policy.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10081220/Conservatives-consider-limit-on-GP-visits.html


 
You are right but I signed the petition any way. 
Best to try and nip these things in the bud as best as we can. 
https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/dont-cap-GP-visits#petition


----------



## UhOhSeven (May 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Best to try and nip these things in the bud as best as we can.
> https://secure.38degrees.org.uk/page/s/dont-cap-GP-visits#petition


 
Quite agree -- will sign the petition in a moment.

ETA: Duly signed.

Strikes me as this is the same 'liontamer's whip' crap that NuLab tried -- float a _really_ wankerish idea, then slip through something slightly less offensive once all the original fuss has died down.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (May 28, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Don't stress just yet -- it's a Tory thinktank proposal that has already annoyed the healthcare pros. I sincerely doubt it has a chance of making it as far as policy.
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10081220/Conservatives-consider-limit-on-GP-visits.html


 


> Among them were whether GPs should take greater responsibility for out of hours care in their area - something Health Secretary Jeremy Hunt addressed earlier this week - and if seeing a GP for a routine appointment in the evening or at the weekend is a luxury the country cannot afford.


 
I don't understand how that's a luxury 

Why don't surgeries just have flexible hours or rather than work Mondays to Fridays, have some do Tuesdays to Saturdays or Wednesdays to Sundays?  I'm sure there's plenty of people that would prefer those hours/days rather than have your normal Saturday/Sunday off when the rest of the country is.

Alright, you might have to pay for an extra receptionist if you only have one, but...


----------



## kittyP (May 28, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Quite agree -- will sign the petition in a moment.
> 
> ETA: Duly signed.
> 
> Strikes me as this is the same 'liontamer's whip' crap that NuLab tried -- float a _really_ wankerish idea, *then slip through something slightly less offensive once all the original fuss has died down*.


 
Yes this really is probably the main worry


----------



## equationgirl (May 28, 2013)

I signed it too, fucking stupid idea. Wankers.


----------



## WouldBe (May 29, 2013)

Signed.


I had an appointment with A4E yesterday and was told that if I have a diagnosis of ME instead of CFS I would get DLA as well. 

As ME and CFS are the same thing why would the DWP treat them differently? (are are they just being thick as normal)


----------



## equationgirl (May 29, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Signed.
> 
> 
> I had an appointment with A4E yesterday and was told that if I have a diagnosis of ME instead of CFS I would get DLA as well.
> ...


 
I suspect they are just being thick as normal.


----------



## Greebo (May 29, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Signed.
> 
> 
> I had an appointment with A4E yesterday and was told that if I have a diagnosis of ME instead of CFS I would get DLA as well.
> ...


 
Strictly speaking, the DWP are being thick. However, AFAIK these days ME tends to be more widely accepted as fitting the Ramsey diagnosis (more physical stuff wrong) and CFS as fitting the Oxford diagnosis (closer to "it's all in your head") as espoused by Simon benighted Wessely et al. But there's politics behind this too. In some areas, even consultants haven't been allowed to write M.E. and have to put CFS instead.

In any fucking case, the diagnosis you're given ought to be irrelevant, even according to the DWP's own rules. DLA is granted according to how you are affected/impaired, not by the labels you have or haven't got.


----------



## WouldBe (May 30, 2013)

Not looked at the Ramsey diagnosis but I don't meet the Oxford diagnosis so I must have ME.


----------



## Bakunin (May 30, 2013)

Greebo said:


> In any fucking case, the diagnosis you're given ought to be irrelevant, even according to the DWP's own rules. DLA is granted according to how you are affected/impaired, not by the labels you have or haven't got.


 

I thought DLA was granted depending on whether or not they could legally get away with refusing it.

Unfortunately for the bean-counters the Tribunal Service seems to be independently minded.


----------



## Greebo (May 30, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> I thought DLA was granted depending on whether or not they could legally get away with refusing it.<snip>


 
It should be.  In practice it seems to be granted to the fewest people possible while the DWP crosses its collective fingers that enough of the rest will just give up instead of even trying to appeal.


----------



## WouldBe (May 31, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Not looked at the Ramsey diagnosis but I don't meet the Oxford diagnosis so I must have ME.


I have seen the Ramsey criteria before and I don't meet them either. Although it could explain one of the symptoms that the expert neurologist said couldn't be explained by CFS and he couldn't explain what might be causing that symptom. 

Got a copy of my recent med notes yesterday. Above neurologist says my GP could refer me to every neurologist in the country and I might get a "spurious diagnosis of organic desease" but it won't be from him. Sounds like he's either very woried or has an ego the size of Jupiter. 

The prof of neurology who my GP wrote to and said MRI was the gold standard for diagnosing MS actually went on to suggest neurologists in the are who are specialists in MS that I could be refered to. Yet according to my GP there's no point. 

Letter from specialist in CFS advising my GP on pain relief  states opiates won't work on CFS and gabapentin won't work on physical damage. So it's funny how the gabapentin isn't having any effect (I'm on 1800mg daily atm) yet there has already been an improvement since my GP put me on prescription co-codamol.


----------



## equationgirl (May 31, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I have seen the Ramsey criteria before and I don't meet them either. Although it could explain one of the symptoms that the expert neurologist said couldn't be explained by CFS and he couldn't explain what might be causing that symptom.
> 
> Got a copy of my recent med notes yesterday. Above neurologist says my GP could refer me to every neurologist in the country and I might get a "spurious diagnosis of organic desease" but it won't be from him. Sounds like he's either very woried or has an ego the size of Jupiter.
> 
> ...


 
1800mg of gabapentin is a big dose, if it's having no effect have they thought of giving pregabalin (Lyrica) a go instead? It's supposed to be more effective on damaged nerves than gabapentin.


----------



## equationgirl (May 31, 2013)

And your GP is a foaming gibberer (copyright Frances Lengel) WouldBe


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## WouldBe (Jun 1, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> 1800mg of gabapentin is a big dose, if it's having no effect have they thought of giving pregabalin (Lyrica) a go instead? It's supposed to be more effective on damaged nerves than gabapentin.


1800mg is the max dose for peripheral nerve pain but I've been told to keep increasing it by 100mg per week. 

Pregabalin costs more than gabapentin so I might have problems getting them to change to pregabalin.

If pregabalin is more effective on nerve damage they probably won't want to put me on that as if it works it will suggest that I do have an "organic disease" and that I'm not "imagining it". As a junior doctor told me years ago "the PCT don't like paying for MS treatment so I won't get a diagnosis" so I suspect they won't go down that route.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 1, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> 1800mg is the max dose for peripheral nerve pain but I've been told to keep increasing it by 100mg per week.
> 
> Pregabalin costs more than gabapentin so I might have problems getting them to change to pregabalin.
> 
> If pregabalin is more effective on nerve damage they probably won't want to put me on that as if it works it will suggest that I do have an "organic disease" and that I'm not "imagining it". As a junior doctor told me years ago "the PCT don't like paying for MS treatment so I won't get a diagnosis" so I suspect they won't go down that route.


 
Well it's not an MS treatment specifically and it is a non-generic drug, about £100 per month for 300mg/day, but there is no way you should be recommended to continually up your daily dose from the maximum dose. Could it be worth a shot? They must agree that you have nerve pain if you're getting gabapentin and co-codamol anyway.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 1, 2013)

The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 1, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


 
For the love of ...... 

Is it worth writing in the first instance with a copy of the Tribunal Service letter stating that? Send it off straight away if you can?


----------



## Libertad (Jun 1, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


 
ffs


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 2, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Well it's not an MS treatment specifically and it is a non-generic drug, about £100 per month for 300mg/day, but there is no way you should be recommended to continually up your daily dose from the maximum dose. Could it be worth a shot? They must agree that you have nerve pain if you're getting gabapentin and co-codamol anyway.


From why I can gather the PCT don't like paying for interferon. My GP has agreed with me that it would be up to a neurologist as to wether I'm suitable for interferon any way. I beleive I've progressed to secondary progressive MS as I don't appear to have relapses any more just gradually going down hill and the interferon is supposed to stop / reduce the relapses so wouldn't be applicable in my case.

I have other long standing problems like my knees that cause pain and have very noticable crepitus (which suggests to me that it's 1 not imaginary and 2 it's not caused by nerve problems) that hasn't been looked at or treated in nearly 20 years . I also have recurrent back problems (I've put my back out 3 times in the last 6 weeks ). I understand that back problems are a neurological problem yet no one has even so much as physically examined my back let alone done any other tests in the 15 years I've been having problems but according to the neurologists I have no neurological problems and definately don't have any organic disease that's causing my problems.


----------



## panpete (Jun 2, 2013)

Hi

I got my esa50 and want to know  how I can put that I think I deserve to be exempt under exceptional circumstances on the form please.
Also, does my doctor need to write it on her letter.
MH is the reason why.

Thanks


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 3, 2013)

Would ATOS's LiMA Version 2 Technical Manual be of interest to anybody?

http://issuu.com/atosvictims/docs/lima-v2-technical-manual


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## panpete (Jun 3, 2013)

I have till 28th June to fill out my form.
Please can someone tell me how to go about asking Atos for a recorded interview, and at what stage to contact them?
Many thanks.


----------



## UhOhSeven (Jun 3, 2013)

Full instructions on this page panpete:

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/how-to-request-an-audio-recorded-assessment/


----------



## panpete (Jun 3, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> Full instructions on this page panpete:
> 
> http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/how-to-request-an-audio-recorded-assessment/


Hi Thanks

When should I contact Atos to arrange a recorded assessment, bearing in mind my form does not have to be back till 28th june?
Will it go against me, or will it benefit me?

Thanks


----------



## panpete (Jun 3, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


ffs!


----------



## UhOhSeven (Jun 3, 2013)

> When should I contact Atos to arrange a recorded assessment, bearing in mind my form does not have to be back till 28th june?


 
Well, you _can't_ organise to record it _until_ you know when it is, so I would say as soon as you have your appointment letter (giving you date, time and location of interview) you should phone up about the recording.

So you've got ages yet -- you haven't even sent the form off!



> Will it go against me, or will it benefit me?


 
It can't count against you. If anything, it should concentrate the ATOS employee's mind to know they will be recorded, so it should work (subtly) in your favour.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete, previous experience on this thread has shown that claimants often need to repeatedly check that the wishes for a recording assessment have been noted by atos. You may wish to include a short note stating that you wish to have the assessment recorded in with your form when you return it. Be prepared to phone up and check that your request has been noted when you get your assessment letter and again the week before the assessment. It does not count against you as every claimant has the right to be recorded.


----------



## spirals (Jun 3, 2013)

I asked during every phone call I had with them (atleast 4) and they 'forgot' to pass that onto the place where I was interviewed so I would send them a letter asking for it to be recorded and perhaps even tell them you have recorded the call when/if you ask for it to be recorded!


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## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2013)

Basically, I don't think you can ask too many times.


----------



## panpete (Jun 3, 2013)

WOW
I didn't expect that I would have to ask more than once but it seems I do :O

Can I ask another question please, if I repeatedly telephone Atos, are they going to think I am more capable on the telephone than I really am, cos I sometimes avoid making calls as telephone sometimes is difficult for me as I have been known to go to pieces?


----------



## Quartz (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> Can I ask another question please, if I repeatedly telephone Atos, are they going to think I am more capable on the telephone than I really am, cos I sometimes avoid making calls as telephone sometimes is difficult for me as I have been known to go to pieces?


 

I wouldn't put it past them. You only have to read through this thread to see what utter cunts they are.



audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


 
Bloody hell!

The very best of luck to both of you. And WouldBe too. And everyone else mired in the quagmire that is ATOS.

That said, there is some justice: ATOS have decided that IDS is unfit for work.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> WOW
> I didn't expect that I would have to ask more than once but it seems I do :O
> 
> Can I ask another question please, if I repeatedly telephone Atos, are they going to think I am more capable on the telephone than I really am, cos I sometimes avoid making calls as telephone sometimes is difficult for me as I have been known to go to pieces?


 
Oh don't worry about going to pieces on the phone! If anything that will show you ARE NOT able to cope in an everyday environment, much less a normal work environment.


----------



## panpete (Jun 3, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Oh don't worry about going to pieces on the phone! If anything that will show you ARE NOT able to cope in an everyday environment, much less a normal work environment.


I'm not worried about going to pieces on the phone, but I am worried that if I don;t end up going to pieces, atos will make a note that I can deal with the telephone, when I cannot reliably


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> I'm not worried about going to pieces on the phone, but I am worried that if I don;t end up going to pieces, atos will make a note that I can deal with the telephone, when I cannot reliably


 
I think that's unlikely to be honest.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> I'm not worried about going to pieces on the phone, but I am worried that if I don;t end up going to pieces, atos will make a note that I can deal with the telephone, when I cannot reliably


 
I reckon equationgirl's right that's quite unlikely - The ones who answer the phones aren't the ones who do your assessment.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 3, 2013)

panpete if you're still worried about the phoning up, is there anyone you could get to phone on your behalf? And make it known at the assessment & also on your ESA50 that you're having to get someone to phone for you etc & that, coupled with all the other stress involved has excaserbated your condition?


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## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2013)

Have you got someone to go with you to your assessment as well, panpete?

Happy 26,000th post to me


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 4, 2013)

On the phone last week, got told everything was sorted, JSA claim shut down, ESA claim set up, backdated pay would be in the bank by Monday. It was & all the ESA paperwork came through the post today 

Mind you, it took long enough & they haven't said when I'm due for my next review - Is that normal about the review? On Incap they always gave me a date when I'd next be up for a PCA, do they not do that with ESA, can they just have me in on a whim?


----------



## Quartz (Jun 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> On the phone last week, got told everything was sorted, JSA claim shut down, ESA claim set up, backdated pay would be in the bank by Monday. It was & all the ESA paperwork came through the post today


 
Yay!



> Mind you, it took long enough & they haven't said when I'm due for my next review - Is that normal about the review? On Incap they always gave me a date when I'd next be up for a PCA, do they not do that with ESA, can they just have me in on a whim?


 

One victory at a time!


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Thanks
> 
> When should I contact Atos to arrange a recorded assessment, bearing in mind my form does not have to be back till 28th june?
> Will it go against me, or will it benefit me?
> ...


On p2 or 3 of the form it asks about special requirements, put on there "The assessment will be recorded". The Atosser is supposed to read the form before you are assessed so there is no chance of the message not being passed on.

Just in case the Atosser can't be arsed to read your form take a dictaphone along with you and record it yourself. 

Last time I did this ATOS refused to do the assessment so the DWP based their decision on my previous assessment, which is alright as long as your previous assessment went in your favour.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2013)

panpete said:


> Can I ask another question please, if I repeatedly telephone Atos, are they going to think I am more capable on the telephone than I really am, cos I sometimes avoid making calls as telephone sometimes is difficult for me as I have been known to go to pieces?


It will probably go against you. Althought the assessor may not know the contents of the phone calls they may have a record that you phoned x times over y days and this will be assumed that you can use the phone.

If you can't get anyone to make the phone calls for you then get a cheap dictaphone and a telephone adaptor and record the calls yourself. If the Atossers then use your calls against you, you then have the proof to use against them when you do them for fraud by misrepresentation.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


Have a word with a solicitor. I think this amounts to harassment. How the hell they think your medical condition can change that fast is beyond a joke.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 4, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Have a word with a solicitor. I think this amounts to harassment. How the hell they think your medical condition can change that fast is beyond a joke.


 

Tell me about it amd my medical condition has worsened. I've written to Atos and meanwhile been in touch with my MP yet again. Also, both the Equality and Human Rights Commission and Job Centre Plus. The former advised that "reasonable adjustment" could be expected here. The latter, after going through notes said that the 24 months limit set by the tribunal hadn't been recorded. This, when I specifically asked the decision maker 12 months ago to do just that, who assured me then she had. They've said they will email the Benefits Agency to check the 24 months and notify me in writing. What's the odds of putting me through the wringer further?


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 5, 2013)

Well something in my last letter has worked in my favour. Not sure if it's using the DWP work psychologist report to back my claim or the " more depressed, more suicidal, losing the will to live" closing line.

I phoned DWP yesterday to check if they had received my letter and they had.

1. Decision maker had accepted my reason for ESA form to be late.  Normally you have to go through a cab etc to get them to change their mind.

2. I was told someone would call me back today between 9 and 1. I was called back within an hour.  Normally they phone you back late or don't bother calling back at all.

3. I was told my ESA claim had been re-opened and as soon as the computer glitch was sorted out they would make an immediate payment for the missing 2 weeks money into my account.  Normally they just wait until your next due date and stick it all into your account in 1 go.

Hopefully the tide is turning but I won't be holding my breath.


----------



## spirals (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals said:


> FFS! I could cry  I sent in my DLA renewal pack about 8 weeks ago. A couple of weeks later I got a call asking why I signed it name B as opposed to name A. I told them that I had got married nearly 2 years ago and informed them of my name change at the time. They said they hadn't changed the name and could I send them a copy of the marriage certificate in the post. I said I would and asked if it needed to be in urgently and would it delay my form being processed? They told me no and it was just for their records. I phoned today to double check what needed to be in the covering letter and to ask how my claim was going as it ends very soon and they inform me that they haven't even registered it as they need the copy of my marriage certificate to proceed! So thats completely opposite to what they told me when they phoned


 
Update to this;

I sent them the marriage certificate and 10 days later phoned to check they had got it and were processing my form ok. "Oh no Mrs Spirals we haven't recieved a copy of a marriage certificate and we don't have a DLA renewal claim form from you either!"  Spoke to 3 different people where they acknowledged they must of had my form to phone me about it being filled in under a different surname.  2 hrs later they phone me back and have managed to find both missing pieces of paperwork and today I heard that it's higher rate of both care and mobility for 3 years! Thank you so much ViolentPanda for your help


----------



## Greebo (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals said:


> <snip>2 hrs later they phone me back and have managed to find both missing pieces of paperwork and today I heard that it's higher rate of both care and mobility for 3 years! Thank you so much ViolentPanda for your help


 
At last! 3 years at the higher rate too - that might make things a bit easier for you and mr spirals. 

BTW well done for persisting with the calls and paperwork - it really is worth it in the end.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals said:


> Update to this;
> 
> I sent them the marriage certificate and 10 days later phoned to check they had got it and were processing my form ok. "Oh no Mrs Spirals we haven't recieved a copy of a marriage certificate and we don't have a DLA renewal claim form from you either!" Spoke to 3 different people where they acknowledged they must of had my form to phone me about it being filled in under a different surname. 2 hrs later they phone me back and have managed to find both missing pieces of paperwork and today I heard that it's higher rate of both care and mobility for 3 years! Thank you so much ViolentPanda for your help


 
Fantastic!!  I'm absolutely chuffed for you!!!  That's a couple of years where you won't have to worry about the bastards!!


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## yardbird (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals that's great! :0


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## spirals (Jun 5, 2013)

Greebo said:


> At last! 3 years at the higher rate too - that might make things a bit easier for you and mr spirals.
> 
> BTW well done for persisting with the calls and paperwork - it really is worth it in the end.


When I spoke to them and they said they'd lost everything I told mr S that I was done with it all and couldn't cope with the stress of going through it all but I'm so glad that I didn't quit. It's an odd feeling though, it's yay we can breathe easy for a bit and meh because it reaffirms that I'm still not well and it sucks to need DLA.


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## Greebo (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals said:


> <snip>It's an odd feeling though, it's yay we can breathe easy for a bit and meh because it reaffirms that I'm still not well and it sucks to need DLA.


 
VP got that too.  With any luck, less stress plus a bit more money might improve your chances of recovering, or at least make your bad days fewer and more bearable.


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## ddraig (Jun 5, 2013)




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## equationgirl (Jun 5, 2013)

Nice one spirals jolly well done


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## geminisnake (Jun 5, 2013)

I have had to stop watching that before I get really annoyed!!!


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## ddraig (Jun 5, 2013)

really disheartening isn't it 
and evil horrible way to treat vulnerable people


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## yardbird (Jun 5, 2013)

I've just watched Adam Lotun on the breakfast prog he mentioned.
Watch and get more annoyed!


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## yardbird (Jun 5, 2013)

I mowed some grass today. 
God forbid ATOS find out!


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## ddraig (Jun 5, 2013)

careful now yardy! you don't want to be keeping active when able to and improving your environment


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 5, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The dreaded Atos brown envelope has landed. Against the set two year limit recommended by the Tribunal Service at my last appeal, I'm being re-assessed for the third time. This, after less than a year. I despair.


 
That's just


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 5, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> On the phone last week, got told everything was sorted, JSA claim shut down, ESA claim set up, backdated pay would be in the bank by Monday. It was & all the ESA paperwork came through the post today
> 
> Mind you, it took long enough & they haven't said when I'm due for my next review - Is that normal about the review? On Incap they always gave me a date when I'd next be up for a PCA, do they not do that with ESA, can they just have me in on a whim?


 
They didn't with the one I did.  I had to ring them up and ask and they sent form back stating they didn't expect himself to be fit for work for at least 2 years, so I'm guessing I'll get another form before then.  If it's not the ESA one, no doubt I'll get DLA one before then


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 5, 2013)

spirals said:


> Update to this;
> 
> I sent them the marriage certificate and 10 days later phoned to check they had got it and were processing my form ok. "Oh no Mrs Spirals we haven't recieved a copy of a marriage certificate and we don't have a DLA renewal claim form from you either!" Spoke to 3 different people where they acknowledged they must of had my form to phone me about it being filled in under a different surname. 2 hrs later they phone me back and have managed to find both missing pieces of paperwork and today I heard that it's higher rate of both care and mobility for 3 years! Thank you so much ViolentPanda for your help


 
Congratulations spirals.  Must be a huge relief


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## Libertad (Jun 7, 2013)

My wife, who is my "carer", had a phone call from the DWP about our claim for DLA this morning. The caller informed her that because the DLA form didn't have a "return by" date on it they would only pay from the date they received the form which was in April.

The form was given to me by the Job Centre before I started chemo last September. I've been so ill that we didn't return the form until April though we made it clear that I was ill even before I started chemo.

The lack of a "return by" date was not down to us, that was a mistake made by the issuing Job Centre. Do you think we would have grounds for appeal in asking for our claim to be backdated till the beginning of chemotherapy treatment?


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## panpete (Jun 7, 2013)

Libertad said:


> My wife, who is my "carer", had a phone call from the DWP about our claim for DLA this morning. The caller informed her that because the DLA form didn't have a "return by" date on it they would only pay from the date they received the form which was in April.
> 
> The form was given to me by the Job Centre before I started chemo last September. I've been so ill that we didn't return the form until April though we made it clear that I was ill even before I started chemo.
> 
> The lack of a "return by" date was not down to us, that was a mistake made by the issuing Job Centre. Do you think we would have grounds for appeal in asking for our claim to be backdated till the beginning of chemotherapy treatment?


I know precious little, but will give my opinion fwiw.
First of all, sorry you have to go through this horrible process.
Reading your post made it hit home how sadistic these people are.

I think you should be able to appeal. It was their error. You were too ill to even fill it out.

_ "The caller informed her that because *the DLA form didn't have a "return by" date on it they would only pay from the date they received the form which was in April*"._

I would be getting myself to (or phoning if unwell) the CAB and ask their advice. They are great.
Oh, and I would get your doctor/consultant involved too.

Best of luck and hope someone else is more help.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 7, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Do you think we would have grounds for appeal in asking for our claim to be backdated till the beginning of chemotherapy treatment?


 
I can't see that it would do you any harm to claim backdating, I mean it's not going to lose you money even if they say no.

Having said that, anything other than the standard form (and sometimes even then) is best handled with some experienced advice - CAB, local welfare rights unit, any other support organisation you've got on side.

According to this, ESA can be backdated for a maximum of 3 months.

It may also be worth claiming backdating on any other benefits that you'd have been entitled to (or entitled to more than you were getting) e.g. housing / council tax benefit.  Again, experienced help is useful here.


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## audiotech (Jun 7, 2013)

Libertad said:


> My wife, who is my "carer", had a phone call from the DWP about our claim for DLA this morning. The caller informed her that because the DLA form didn't have a "return by" date on it they would only pay from the date they received the form which was in April.
> 
> The form was given to me by the Job Centre before I started chemo last September. I've been so ill that we didn't return the form until April though we made it clear that I was ill even before I started chemo.
> 
> The lack of a "return by" date was not down to us, that was a mistake made by the issuing Job Centre. Do you think we would have grounds for appeal in asking for our claim to be backdated till the beginning of chemotherapy treatment?


 

Get your appeal in Libertad. As my point above, after seeking advice from the Equality and Human Rights Commission, "reasonable adjustment" could be argued in your case. Emphasise this point and I suggest you involve your MP too.


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## panpete (Jun 8, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> It will probably go against you. Althought the assessor may not know the contents of the phone calls they may have a record that you phoned x times over y days and this will be assumed that you can use the phone.
> 
> If you can't get anyone to make the phone calls for you then get a cheap dictaphone and a telephone adaptor and record the calls yourself. If the Atossers then use your calls against you, you then have the proof to use against them when you do them for fraud by misrepresentation.



Hi I can't afford a dictaphone for one time use.
I can get someone to phone once but I doybt tthey will phone srveral times as someone suggested may be required.
Normally I would think its paranoia but with atos you can't be paranoid enough it seems.


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## WouldBe (Jun 9, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi I can't afford a dictaphone for one time use.
> I can get someone to phone once but I doybt tthey will phone srveral times as someone suggested may be required.
> Normally I would think its paranoia but with atos you can't be paranoid enough it seems.


You can get a dictaphone for £30 from Argos. 

If you have long term health problems you will need it again in 2 years time when you get reassessed and then in another 2 years etc.


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## panpete (Jun 9, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> You can get a dictaphone for £30 from Argos.
> 
> If you have long term health problems you will need it again in 2 years time when you get reassessed and then in another 2 years etc.


Hi Wouldbe

I dont think I will be assessed in two yrs time cos I will possibly only be on ESA for the twelve months of contributions based, as I will get paid zero income related ESA as its means tested and my £499 (not enough to live on) pension may be my sole income.


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## equationgirl (Jun 9, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Wouldbe
> 
> I dont think I will be assessed in two yrs time cos I will possibly only be on ESA for the twelve months of contributions based, as I will get paid zero income related ESA as its means tested and my £499 (not enough to live on) pension may be my sole income.


 
You don't know that panpete, you can't assume that you won't get put into the support group.


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## existentialist (Jun 10, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Wouldbe
> 
> I dont think I will be assessed in two yrs time cos I will possibly only be on ESA for the twelve months of contributions based, as I will get paid zero income related ESA as its means tested and my £499 (not enough to live on) pension may be my sole income.


 
What I'm going to say here, panpete, is said supportively, not critically.

In just the last two posts you've made, you're demonstrating something the cognitive behaviouralists like to call "errors of thinking". I don't much like that term, because it somehow implies that certain types of thinking are "wrong" by some external standard. But they have a point, because the kind of thing that term refers to are often ways of thinking that sabotage any possibility of progress.

The first is in your apparent determination to be rendered powerless by circumstances, with regard to the dictaphone idea. It is easy, perhaps if we are feeling pessimistic or persecuted, to see there as being no way through, and that can sometimes (often!) tend to lead us to automatically assume there is no solution, and to find ways in which that is the case. With the dictaphone, as has been pointed out, these devices aren't prohibitively expensive, which means more than one thing: first, it is possible that you might be able to afford one (you could look on it as a useful investment _just in case_ you find yourself needing to record further interactions with agencies), but even if that isn't possible, it means that someone else may have one that they will be prepared to lend or give you. So, rather than seeing it as a complete obstacle, consider the possibilities.

Secondly, your predictions regarding the likely outcome of your assessment. Along with "mind reading", "predicting the future" is a common "error of thinking", and again tends to arise when people are very discouraged or pessimistic, often with good reason, about their prospects. But there is such a thing as a self-fulfilling prophecy, and if you go into situations automatically assuming that the worst outcome will result, you *are* going to find that negative things happen more often. 

It's interesting that, in a way, you are using the latter prediction to justify your choice not to try and find a way of recording your assessment - this is circular reasoning, as there is enough evidence on here to show that recording assessments can provide useful information with which to challenge them. Which would mean that your prediction of being put onto ESA, while possibly right at the point of the DWP decision, is wrong in that you will be in a better position to appeal and challenge the outcome.

Seriously - there are a lot of things you cannot control, but it seems to me that you are lumping in with them things you could control if you chose to. It doesn't guarantee a positive outcome, but the current approach is most definitely guaranteeing a negative one.

Think about it.


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## Libertad (Jun 10, 2013)

Received DLA decision today. Awarded lower rate. They obviously didn't read the evidence that we'd provided.
Going to appeal. Will they suspend the lower rate award while we appeal?

Really don't need this stress right now, waiting for a CT scan to see if my gall bladder and pancreas are fucked. When I read the letter my whole right hand side went into spasm, fucking agony. That'll be stress then.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 10, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Received DLA decision today. Awarded lower rate. They obviously didn't read the evidence that we'd provided.
> Going to appeal. Will they suspend the lower rate award while we appeal?
> 
> Really don't need this stress right now, waiting for a CT scan to see if my gall bladder and pancreas are fucked. When I read the letter my whole right hand side went into spasm, fucking agony. That'll be stress then.


 
I can't see the lower rate getting suspended while you appeal - Appeal's one thing, your award for lower rate is something else.

As ever though, don't take my word as gospel.

And _don't_ run out of build up again


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## audiotech (Jun 10, 2013)

Hey Libertad join the club, the MRI scan I had a couple of weeks ago has confirmed my brain is fucked-up, with a 94 day wait before I'm able to see a neurosurgeon. The good news is it is "considered benign".


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## Libertad (Jun 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Hey Libertad join the club, the MRI scan I had a couple of weeks ago has confirmed my brain is fucked-up, with a 94 day wait before I'm able to see a neurosurgeon. The good news is it is "considered benign".


 
Good excuse for a party then eh?


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## equationgirl (Jun 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Hey Libertad join the club, the MRI scan I had a couple of weeks ago has confirmed my brain is fucked-up, with a 94 day wait before I'm able to see a neurosurgeon. The good news is it is "considered benign".


 
94 days???!!! NINETY-FOUR DAYS???!!!! Dear god, what is your PCT playing at? Any way you can get this brought forwards?


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## audiotech (Jun 10, 2013)

With this shower of shite in government hacking away at PCT's as I type I very much doubt that. I've yet to experience my benefits being stopped altogether as yet. As I think I remarked on this thread earlier, the DWP have said they'd email the Benefits Agency with regards to my 24 month stay of execution, but I don't hold out much for the, incompetent, or deliberate by design, bureaucratic balls up that's likely to happen. I'll go to the press then, that's if my battered brain holds out in the meantime.


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## panpete (Jun 13, 2013)

existentialist said:


> What I'm going to say here, panpete, is said supportively, not critically.
> 
> In just the last two posts you've made, you're demonstrating something the cognitive behaviouralists like to call "errors of thinking". I don't much like that term, because it somehow implies that certain types of thinking are "wrong" by some external standard. But they have a point, because the kind of thing that term refers to are often ways of thinking that sabotage any possibility of progress.
> 
> ...


Hi Existentialist,

Will I be allowed to take a dictaphone into the interview?
If so, then I will take one in.

I see what you mean about some people leading us to think there is no solution to problems they present. I also felt like that about my mum and dad.
They have a lot in common with the government. For instance, it only recently occured to me, that my mum and dad used to make my life as difficult as possible and were very negative and they brainwashed me into thinking I was trapped or stuck in various positions.
For instance, when I was 24 back in 1990, I wanted to leave home, and my mum said I would never get a council house, cos all the single mums would keep overtaking me in the queue, so I gave up.
Anyway, I digress from Atos and the govt, (theyre both one and the same greedy immoral beast) to me.
My parents were unreasonable, and atos/govt are too, so, when dealing with unreasonable people, I get paranoid and think up all sorts of irrational situations.
If were dealing with more average people, I would not be so keen to look for malicious intent.

If it wont be a problem for me to take a dictaphone into the interview, I will, so long as it will record clearly and not a load of muffled incoherent noise.


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## laptop (Jun 13, 2013)

panpete said:


> Will I be allowed to take a dictaphone into the interview?
> If so, then I will take one in.


 
I recall assessors making a problem of it, but I'm too tired to remember where.

Strategy: take someone with you who can take copious notes. This itself makes the assessor take care.

Also have a concealed dictaphone.

Then if there are issues, you can transcribe the tape the notes. See?


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## existentialist (Jun 13, 2013)

laptop said:


> I recall assessors making a problem of it, but I'm too tired to remember where.
> 
> Strategy: take someone with you who can take copious notes. This itself makes the assessor take care.
> 
> ...


This.

Test the concept: put the dictaphone in your pocket and try talking to people. Check it back afterwards and see.

Also...


panpete said:


> I see what you mean about some people leading us to think there is no solution to problems they present. I also felt like that about my mum and dad.
> They have a lot in common with the government. For instance, it only recently occured to me, that my mum and dad used to make my life as difficult as possible and were very negative and they brainwashed me into thinking I was trapped or stuck in various positions.
> For instance, when I was 24 back in 1990, I wanted to leave home, and my mum said I would never get a council house, cos all the single mums would keep overtaking me in the queue, so I gave up.
> Anyway, I digress from Atos and the govt, (theyre both one and the same greedy immoral beast) to me.
> ...


Can you see, reading back what you have said here, how you manage to turn other people's problematic behaviour into your problems?

You're equating the government with your parents (_very_ Freudian), but using both examples as ways ("they brainwashed me"/"If I were dealing with more average people, I would not be...") of explaining how your behaviour is not your own, but dictated by others.

You might want to think about challenging those assumptions.

This is my favourite Dictaphone joke:

"Can I borrow your Dictaphone?"

"No, use your finger like everyone else".

Ithangyew.

PS, I meant it about the assumptions.


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## panpete (Jun 13, 2013)

When dealing with Atos, I feel as if I am dealing with my parents.
Both are/were unreasonable.
What am I meant to assume when dealing with such people where anything goes?
I do not know anyone who I could ask, to take copious notes for me.
If I did know someone, I would ask them.
If I snook a dictaphone into my bag, and Atos ended up writing down something I didn't say, what redress would I have, given that I would be giving myself away by telling them I recorded the interview on the sly?

Thanks


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## Quartz (Jun 13, 2013)

How about doing both? Record the session on your Dictaphone and make notes on a pad. Then, after the session, write up fuller notes from your recording.


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## existentialist (Jun 13, 2013)

panpete said:


> When dealing with Atos, I feel as if I am dealing with my parents.
> Both are/were unreasonable.
> What am I meant to assume when dealing with such people where anything goes?
> I do not know anyone who I could ask, to take copious notes for me.
> ...


Read what Laptop said. Allow me to transcribe with subtitles...

You have someone in with you who is giving every appearance of taking copious notes. This is perfectly legit, though he could be doing Sudoku puzzles so long as he isn't caught.

You have, also, hidden in your pocket, one Dictaphone, covert recording for the use of.

Following the travesty...I mean, assessment, you transcribe the recording of the session as notes (notes being perfectly acceptable to take).

Should there be any issue with the assessment, you produce your notes, denying all existence of the Dictaphone ("no, use your finger"), and trounce them.

Assume nothing when dealing with such people. Definitely don't assume that they are your parents - the people who work for ATOS are usually unfamiliar with the concept of parenthood...and certainly the concept of parenthood within wedlock (see what I did there?).


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## existentialist (Jun 13, 2013)

Quartz said:


> How about doing both? Record the session on your Dictaphone and make notes on a pad. Then, after the session, write up fuller notes from your recording.


Ah yes, the "billy no mates" option, should work just as well  Although, of course, you might be demonstrating competence by being able to take comprehensive notes - it'd be better if it were someone else, even if they're just a complete stooge.


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## UhOhSeven (Jun 13, 2013)

I may be missing something but why would you be surreptitiously recording your ATOS assessment with a dictaphone anyway? A recording of your medical is available free of charge from ATOS (as long as you request it in advance).


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## toggle (Jun 13, 2013)

panpete said:


> When dealing with Atos, I feel as if I am dealing with my parents.
> Both are/were unreasonable.
> What am I meant to assume when dealing with such people where anything goes?
> I do not know anyone who I could ask, to take copious notes for me.
> ...


 
afaik, covert recordings can be used as evidence at tribunals, but you need to do transcriptions.


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## toggle (Jun 13, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I may be missing something but why would you be surreptitiously recording your ATOS assessment with a dictaphone anyway? A recording of your medical is available free of charge from ATOS (as long as you request it in advance).


 
if they have equipment that's working


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## panpete (Jun 13, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Read what Laptop said. Allow me to transcribe with subtitles...
> 
> You have someone in with you who is giving every appearance of taking copious notes. This is perfectly legit, though he could be doing Sudoku puzzles so long as he isn't caught.
> 
> ...


Hi

I see what you mean now   I got confused, sorry.
What do you mean about subtitiles? and also about atos staff having kids out of wedlock?
Sorry this has affected my mind, so I am not quick on the uptake as normal.


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## existentialist (Jun 13, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi
> 
> I see what you mean now  I got confused, sorry.
> What do you mean about subtitiles? and also about atos staff having kids out of wedlock?
> Sorry this has affected my mind, so I am not quick on the uptake as normal.


Don't worry about it. It's really just me not trying quite hard enough not to be a complete cunt.


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## existentialist (Jun 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> if they have equipment that's working


Or they're not playing the "let's fuck the clueless victim about so much that he doesn't know his arse from next Wednesday" game.


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## toggle (Jun 13, 2013)

you need to request a recorded home assessment. you will need backup from your gp.gp needs to spell out that you are dangerous to yourself and others if you are placed under unnecessary stress.

I've got no idea what bakunin's gp said to atos, but they chose not to proceed with assessing him at all. if your gp cooperates and writes explaining half of what you've told us, you could well get a similar result.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I may be missing something but why would you be surreptitiously recording your ATOS assessment with a dictaphone anyway? A recording of your medical is available free of charge from ATOS (as long as you request it in advance).


 
If you're lucky enough for the centre you're attending to have a functioning recording device (of which there are a grand total of 11 for 118 centres).


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## WouldBe (Jun 14, 2013)

toggle said:


> if they have equipment that's working


or they can be bothered.


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## laptop (Jun 14, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I may be missing something but why would you be surreptitiously recording your ATOS assessment with a dictaphone anyway? A recording of your medical is available free of charge from ATOS (as long as you request it in advance).


 
Has anyone *ever* heard or seen a credible report of a request for recording being granted?


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## toggle (Jun 14, 2013)

laptop said:


> Has anyone *ever* heard or seen a credible report of a request for recording being granted?


the only thing i have is the request making the whole assessment go away.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 14, 2013)

As an aside though, if you've got someone in with you in your assesment - That person is allowed to take notes? Without asking prior permission? Is that definite?


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## Greebo (Jun 14, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> As an aside though, if you've got someone in with you in your assesment - That person is allowed to take notes? Without asking prior permission? Is that definite?


 
Yes. They're definitely allowed to do so, although it's a social nicety that they'll at least tell the assessor on the day that they'll be taking notes. Anything about "you've got to ask for my permission" is IMHO bullying tactics, and no more than that.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Yes. They're definitely allowed to do so, although it's a social nicety that they'll at least tell the assessor on the day that they'll be taking notes. Anything about "you've got to ask for my permission" is IMHO bullying tactics, and no more than that.


 
Thanks - Just for future reference.


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## Greebo (Jun 14, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Thanks - Just for future reference.


 
The reason is that note taking is a reasonable adjustment (under the DDA) for anyone whose memory or ability to think straight under pressure might be impaired - I'd expect that to be most people.


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## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2013)

UhOhSeven said:


> I may be missing something but why would you be surreptitiously recording your ATOS assessment with a dictaphone anyway? A recording of your medical is available free of charge from ATOS (as long as you request it in advance).


 
They don't have enough machines to have one per assessment centre, let alone one working per assessment centre. Even if recording is requested in advance, people have reported turning up on the day to find that hasn't been communicated to the centre, or the allocated machine isn't working, and that they can insist on a recording but the assessment will have to be rescheduled (and this will make things worse for the claimant has been implied by some).


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## Greebo (Jun 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> <snip>the assessment will have to be rescheduled (and this will make things worse for the claimant has been implied by some).


 
If anyone's in doubt as to how much worse rescheduling can make some people who have to go through the assessment, I'll give a concrete example of what exertion and stress on one day followed by more of the same the next day can do.

Most of you are aware of how ViolentPanda posts here - he usually sounds mentally sharp enough, doesn't he? He had exams at home on two consecutive days, adequate revision was done for both, more or less identical exam conditions for both. He got a high mark for the first, but failed the second. The only difference was that on the second day he was already relapsing because of the exam the day before.

Physical exertion and greater stress from a so-called medical (let's call it what it is - an ordeal which pushes the legal limits of what is permissible to do to a long term sick and/or disabled person) is likely to have far worse and noticeable effects on people who go through it. The journey to the centre and the associated stress can be more than bad enough without having to do so again.


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## kittyP (Jun 15, 2013)

Still not heard anything from ATOS but my ESA didn't come through this week. 
I have had a million appointments (obviously that is an exaggeration) this week and have been too stressed to cope with phoning them. 
I am worried that ATOS have allegedly contacted me about an assessment, I have not received it and they have stopped  my ESA 
I know I have to phone them on Monday but just needed to vent. 
This is all soooo fucking stressful!


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2013)

Greebo said:


> If anyone's in doubt as to how much worse rescheduling can make some people who have to go through the assessment, I'll give a concrete example of what exertion and stress on one day followed by more of the same the next day can do.
> 
> Most of you are aware of how ViolentPanda posts here - he usually sounds mentally sharp enough, doesn't he? He had exams at home on two consecutive days, adequate revision was done for both, more or less identical exam conditions for both. He got a high mark for the first, but failed the second. The only difference was that on the second day he was already relapsing because of the exam the day before.
> 
> Physical exertion and greater stress from a so-called medical (let's call it what it is - an ordeal which pushes the legal limits of what is permissible to do to a long term sick and/or disabled person) is likely to have far worse and noticeable effects on people who go through it. The journey to the centre and the associated stress can be more than bad enough without having to do so again.


 
It's also worth bearing in mind (I'm pretty sure I've said this before, but worth adding for the context)  that one of the questions you get asked at the 'medical' is how you'd have reacted if they had rung up that morning to re-schedule it.

They expect you to be very british and polite about it, but it's really a trick question that's part of the assessment (i.e. the 'being able to cope with being pissed about' factor.)  Absolutely nothing that the Atos 'medical professional' says is 'polite conversation'.


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## Greebo (Jun 15, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> <snip> Absolutely nothing that the Atos 'medical professional' says is 'polite conversation'.


 
I'm glad that you mentioned that, because it means that in my capacity as carer, the gloves can be well and truly removed.  No sticking to taking notes and biting my tongue.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 15, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Still not heard anything from ATOS but my ESA didn't come through this week.
> I have had a million appointments (obviously that is an exaggeration) this week and have been too stressed to cope with phoning them.
> I am worried that ATOS have allegedly contacted me about an assessment, I have not received it and they have stopped my ESA
> I know I have to phone them on Monday but just needed to vent.
> This is all soooo fucking stressful!


 
You do need to deal with this ASAP. The last thing I want to do is peck your head but you do need to find out what's going on sooner rather than later. Is there any way Badgers could phone for you - If someone else has all your details they can ring on your behalf. Though I'd rather bell them myself, me if at all possible.


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## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2013)

Greebo said:


> If anyone's in doubt as to how much worse rescheduling can make some people who have to go through the assessment, I'll give a concrete example of what exertion and stress on one day followed by more of the same the next day can do.
> 
> Most of you are aware of how ViolentPanda posts here - he usually sounds mentally sharp enough, doesn't he? He had exams at home on two consecutive days, adequate revision was done for both, more or less identical exam conditions for both. He got a high mark for the first, but failed the second. The only difference was that on the second day he was already relapsing because of the exam the day before.
> 
> Physical exertion and greater stress from a so-called medical (let's call it what it is - an ordeal which pushes the legal limits of what is permissible to do to a long term sick and/or disabled person) is likely to have far worse and noticeable effects on people who go through it. The journey to the centre and the associated stress can be more than bad enough without having to do so again.


 
Actually, I meant that the claimant's wish to reschedule has been implied by ATOS to be a very bad thing and could negatively impact their claim.


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## kittyP (Jun 15, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You do need to deal with this ASAP. The last thing I want to do is peck your head but you do need to find out what's going on sooner rather than later. Is there any way Badgers could phone for you - If someone else has all your details they can ring on your behalf. Though I'd rather bell them myself, me if at all possible.


 

I will get Badgers to call them on Monday. It is a joint ESA claim so it is fine for him to call.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Actually, I meant that the claimant's wish to reschedule has been implied by ATOS to be a very bad thing and could negatively impact their claim.


 
Yeah, I'll endorse that - Some people seem to think "If I phone them on the morning of the assessment and say Oh shit I'm having a panic attack even as we speak on the bus on the way down, I'm gonna have to cancel", that'll somehow be taken down and used in their favour as evidence of their illness. It won't. And, if you do that, don't assume you'll keep getting paid in the interim between the appointment you cancelled and the rescheduled appointment. You should do, but you might not, it may throw things into a temporary flux or whatever.


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## audiotech (Jun 15, 2013)

Had a enjoyable visit to A&E today, Around four hours wait and treated like a leper, as I desperately needed a muscle relaxant for the muscle that decided to go into spasm, with the excruciating pain that goes along with it. They must think excruciating back pain and waiting around for four hours in A&E is the NHS equivalent of 'happy hour', but with three extra hours on top and no alcohol. One Doctor greeted me with: "Do you visit A&E whenever you have back pain?". I replied: "No this is the first times, it's normally iritis when I rush to A&E, as I'm at risk of losing my eyesight." I thought of saying out loudly: "Anything else to add you arrogant prick." but decided against it. The ward sister wasn't much gracious either when I asked the dosage of the one pill she handed me? "There the same" came the curt reply. I'm no pharmacist, but even I know that to be utter bollocks. The governments "managed consent" and "demonetisation" of the sick and disabled has crawled its way into the medical profession now it seems. "Chav" syndrome perhaps?


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## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Had a enjoyable visit to A&E today, Around four hours wait and treated like a leper, as I desperately needed a muscle relaxant for the muscle that decided to go into spasm, with the excruciating pain that goes along with it. They must think excruciating back pain and waiting around for four hours in A&E is the NHS equivalent of 'happy hour', but with three extra hours on top and no alcohol. One Doctor greeted me with: "Do you visit A&E whenever you have back pain?". I replied: "No this is the first times, it's normally iritis when I rush to A&E, as I'm at risk of losing my eyesight." I thought of saying out loudly: "Anything else to add you arrogant prick." but decided against it. The ward sister wasn't much gracious either when I asked the dosage of the one pill she handed me? "There the same" came the curt reply. I'm no pharmacist, but even I know that to be utter bollocks. The governments "managed consent" and "demonetisation" of the sick and disabled has crawled its way into the medical profession now it seems. "Chav" syndrome perhaps?


 
I find they really don't like expert patients - those of us that are well informed about our conditions. I know that about once every five or six years I get a really bad infection and need to have IV antibiotics. But my condition doesn't present like the normal textbook case of a kidney infection and most doctors refuse to believe that I have an infection because the textbook evidence isn't there.


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## 8115 (Jun 15, 2013)

Get a laminated card and hand it over each time


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## Libertad (Jun 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I find they really don't like expert patients - those of us that are well informed about our conditions.


 
Very true, it intimidates them.


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## audiotech (Jun 15, 2013)

The annoying thing is they had a supply of muscle relaxants on hand and I managed to prise two of the lowest dosage out of their hands, but the pharmacist was shut and they knew that, so I'm having a very painful evening, which if I get some sleep tonight, tomorrow morning is very likely to be hard-work getting to the pharmacist at the hospital when it opens.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Actually, I meant that the claimant's wish to reschedule has been implied by ATOS to be a very bad thing and could negatively impact their claim.


 
Not convinced.

Having said that, if you do fail to attend a 'medical' you will need to get a note from your GP (or hospital, if you've been admitted to hospital) pretty damn quick to avoid having your benefit stopped for failing to attend.

ETA - having said that, I doubt that it will score any extra points for being ill if you do fail to attend one appointment because you're too ill...


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## audiotech (Jun 15, 2013)

Having to repeat myself, I have written to Atos, my MP and spoken to someone who represents the DWP. Atos and my MP have yet to reply. The DWP said they would check with the Benefits Agency to confirm as to whether the 24 months recommended by the Tribunal Service not to be reassessed within this time limit stands, or not? I requested the DWP to confirm this in writing (I hold the original, Atos have a copy), The DWP have also not as yet replied.

So, I've approached three representative bodies, three weeks ago and none have had the common courtesy to reply to my concerns. I have in the back of my mind that this is a ruse to have my benefits stopped. I'm not yet done with this as three more letters, with recently acquired supporting evidence, will be winging their way to all three bodies mentioned above. I've jumped through so many hoops now it's becoming second nature.


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## Celt (Jun 16, 2013)

People on here kindly supported me in my filling in the ESA form and my medical and the outcome, which during a phone call from the DWP I went from no points to 15 after she asked me about pain, I was told I had made it into the WRAG and sometime later I was seen by the job centre,  I have been told it only lasts for 12 months, I was grateful I had made ESA and only this last week finally got the courage to go to the benefits advice shop who tell me that WRAG (Contribution based) lasts for 12 months, which kept me on the same benefit I was receiving from Incapacity, but at the end of 12 months I would have to reapply and if granted ESA at that point becomes means tested, which means I will loose the small pension I am paid.  The benefits advice shop say I need to appeal that decision, because had I made it to support group I would stay on the amount of benefit I was receiving (and am currently getting ) ,  I've partly been pushed to get this sorted out as panpete has been talking about their claim, I have known I didn't understand my benefit situation since my decision in November last, but just haven't been able to face it.  I can't go back so its pointless talking about "should have's",  I have another appointment with benefits advice (local welfare rights org)  So do I appeal or do I accept that I am going to and maybe should loose that part of my income.  I suspect I have made this as clear as mud, but I have tried to write it a couple of times without success.  I feel as though I am that benefit scrounger that is referred to, however the likelhood of me realistically returning to employment is really unlikely. I feel I am in my own moral dilemma.


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## Jackobi (Jun 16, 2013)

Celt said:


> So do I appeal or do I accept that I am going to and maybe should loose that part of my income.


 
If you feel that you should be in the support group, by matching the descriptors, you may be able to make a late appeal, which would require some justification. Perhaps you were not coping well with your symptoms at the time and could not face the rigmarole of an appeal, but feel that you were placed in the wrong group. A loss of income is irrelevant to the appeal process.


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## equationgirl (Jun 16, 2013)

Celt said:


> People on here kindly supported me in my filling in the ESA form and my medical and the outcome, which during a phone call from the DWP I went from no points to 15 after she asked me about pain, I was told I had made it into the WRAG and sometime later I was seen by the job centre, I have been told it only lasts for 12 months, I was grateful I had made ESA and only this last week finally got the courage to go to the benefits advice shop who tell me that WRAG (Contribution based) lasts for 12 months, which kept me on the same benefit I was receiving from Incapacity, but at the end of 12 months I would have to reapply and if granted ESA at that point becomes means tested, which means I will loose the small pension I am paid. The benefits advice shop say I need to appeal that decision, because had I made it to support group I would stay on the amount of benefit I was receiving (and am currently getting ) , I've partly been pushed to get this sorted out as panpete has been talking about their claim, I have known I didn't understand my benefit situation since my decision in November last, but just haven't been able to face it. I can't go back so its pointless talking about "should have's", I have another appointment with benefits advice (local welfare rights org) So do I appeal or do I accept that I am going to and maybe should loose that part of my income. I suspect I have made this as clear as mud, but I have tried to write it a couple of times without success. I feel as though I am that benefit scrounger that is referred to, however the likelhood of me realistically returning to employment is really unlikely. I feel I am in my own moral dilemma.


 
You may as well appeal - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'm here to help you if you like x x


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## Celt (Jun 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You may as well appeal - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'm here to help you if you like x x


 

Thank you.  many times


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## equationgirl (Jun 16, 2013)

Celt said:


> Thank you. many times


 
You're welcome


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 16, 2013)

Celt said:


> People on here kindly supported me in my filling in the ESA form and my medical and the outcome, which during a phone call from the DWP I went from no points to 15 after she asked me about pain, I was told I had made it into the WRAG and sometime later I was seen by the job centre, I have been told it only lasts for 12 months, I was grateful I had made ESA and only this last week finally got the courage to go to the benefits advice shop who tell me that WRAG (Contribution based) lasts for 12 months, which kept me on the same benefit I was receiving from Incapacity, but at the end of 12 months I would have to reapply and if granted ESA at that point becomes means tested, which means I will loose the small pension I am paid. The benefits advice shop say I need to appeal that decision, because had I made it to support group I would stay on the amount of benefit I was receiving (and am currently getting ) , I've partly been pushed to get this sorted out as panpete has been talking about their claim, I have known I didn't understand my benefit situation since my decision in November last, but just haven't been able to face it. I can't go back so its pointless talking about "should have's", I have another appointment with benefits advice (local welfare rights org) * So do I appeal or do I accept that I am going to and* *maybe should loose that part of my income.* I suspect I have made this as clear as mud, but I have tried to write it a couple of times without success. I feel as though I am that benefit scrounger that is referred to, however the likelhood of me realistically returning to employment is really unlikely. I feel I am in my own moral dilemma.


 
Appeal - It is your right, use that right. When I got kicked off the sick, I thought "fuck it" and just accepted it with the sick calm of a condemned man waking on the morning of the day of his execution. But, largely thanks to people on here, I got it together to appeal and, much to my surprise, won. Whether or not you win your appeal, you're generating paperwork for some dickhead to deal with, so motivate yourself to do it on that basis alone.

And what's all this talk of "maybe should lose this part of my income"? No, you shouldn't. You're not a scrounger, please don't allow all this anti-claimant nonsense that's doing the rounds ATM to penetrate your consciousness and make you feel bad about yourself. Chin up, lady - There's no moral dilemma about it - Honest to god, don't be made to feel bad for not being well, the only way morals come into it is the moral obligation for a civilised society to look after those who, for whatever reason, can't work.

All the best anyway. Please do keep us posted coz (as I know) you'll get decent advice on here, and much support as well.


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## WouldBe (Jun 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Actually, I meant that the claimant's wish to reschedule has been implied by ATOS to be a very bad thing and could negatively impact their claim.


Take a dictaphone along and say "Well I'll record it then." No negative impact on you and puts the examiner in an awkward position.


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## laptop (Jun 16, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Take a dictaphone along and say "Well I'll record it then." No negative impact on you and puts the examiner in an awkward position.


 
As I said a bit up-thread, I remember hearing reports of examiners replying "I'm not going to be recorded and I'm writing that you've refused to be interviewed."

But where?


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## cesare (Jun 16, 2013)

laptop said:


> As I said a bit up-thread, I remember hearing reports of examiners replying "I'm not going to be recorded and I'm writing that you've refused to be interviewed."
> 
> But where?


Another poster and I were ejected from her assessment because of starting to overtly photograph/record. The assessor said it was because permission had to be sought in advance. We made a fuss/complained and at the rescheduled assessment had a decent assessor. We covertly recorded rather than seeking permission in advance, and I overtly took handwritten notes.


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## laptop (Jun 16, 2013)

cesare said:


> Another poster and I were ejected from her assessment because of starting to overtly photograph/record. The assessor said it was because permission had to be sought in advance.


 
Ah, the horse's mouth. So to speak. Thanks!



cesare said:


> We made a fuss/complained and at the rescheduled assessment had a decent assessor. We covertly recorded rather than seeking permission in advance, and I overtly took handwritten notes.


 
This, then.


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## cesare (Jun 16, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've accompanied a friend twice to an ATOS assessment and then to the first level appeal tribunal.
> 
> The first time my friend had an ATOS assessment she went unaccompanied, and was very unhappy with the assessor and how the assessment was carried out. She failed the assessment despite having a progressive condition +
> 
> ...


This is where I described it in more detail - possibly worth a bump for new posters joining the thread etc.


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## Quartz (Jun 16, 2013)

laptop said:


> As I said a bit up-thread, I remember hearing reports of examiners replying "I'm not going to be recorded and I'm writing that you've refused to be interviewed."


 

"I'm sure the DWP / my MP / whoever will be delighted to receive my recording of you saying that."


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## Celt (Jun 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You may as well appeal - you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. I'm here to help you if you like x x


 

If I appeal I could loose my ESA entitlement, but I'm pretending that isn't so at the moment.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 16, 2013)

Celt said:


> If I appeal I could loose my ESA entitlement, but I'm pretending that isn't so at the moment.


 
How would you lose your ESA? As far as I understand your appeal (should you choose to do it) is to be placed in the support group rather than the work group. That appeal will either win or lose on it's own grounds - What it won't do is jepordise your entitlement to work group ESA - That's already been awarded and is a separate issue.


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## Celt (Jun 16, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> How would you lose your ESA? As far as I understand your appeal (should you choose to do it) is to be placed in the support group rather than the work group. That appeal will either win or lose on it's own grounds - What it won't do is jepordise your entitlement to work group ESA - That's already been awarded and is a separate issue.


 

Ok - that was info from the Benefits Advice shop,  i will query this will them.  I need to go through the report from the medical and dispute the facts that are wrong, and there are several of them, they tell me that if any of the descriptors are worth 15 or over in itself - that means you make it to support group automatically.  I think.  I have been so scared of this, hence its taken me this long to go to the benefits advice


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> Ok - that was info from the Benefits Advice shop, i will query this will them. I need to go through the report from the medical and dispute the facts that are wrong, and there are several of them, they tell me that if any of the descriptors are worth 15 or over in itself - that means you make it to support group automatically. I think. I have been so scared of this, hence its taken me this long to go to the benefits advice


 
Celt, basically that warning is a formula warning that you get repeated to you by the Benefits Agency/DWP if you appeal - it's their version of the mortgage-lender's warning that "property prices can go down as well as up", IYSWIM.  In the case of benefits appeals, I don't know anyone who's actually let that warning deter them.


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## WouldBe (Jun 17, 2013)

laptop said:


> As I said a bit up-thread, I remember hearing reports of examiners replying "I'm not going to be recorded and I'm writing that you've refused to be interviewed."
> 
> But where?


So you reply (while the dictaphone is still running) "So why did you agree to do my assessment when it clearly states on my ESA form that the assessment will be recorded? I'm quite happy for the assessment to continue and if you write that on my report you will be liable to charges of fraud by mis-representation." 

Don't forget to keep a copy of the recording and transcribe it for any appeal or legal action.


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## panpete (Jun 18, 2013)

My doctor is not helping things at the moment.
Because she forgot to do the letter, which I was supposed to pick up during our appointment on 14th June, I went and talked to the receptionist yesterday, who said she would do a note for my GP, and for me to ring back either today or tomorrow.
In Friday's appointment, my GP said she would make an urgent reminder to herself on her computer to do the letter, but I forgot to make an appointment as I was more anxious than I thought I was.
I rang the receptionist this afternoon, and she advised that my GP was out today, and not in tomorrow.
I am hoping to go camping for one night Thursday night/Friday morning and was planning to leave on Thurs afternoon. I only remembered to tell the receptionist this afternoon.
The receptionist went and had a look in the doctors pidgeon hole this afternoon, and told me that the message they had written to my GP, was still there, waiting to be done.
My doctors surgery is a mile away, an hour walk, which is too much for me atm cos I am really tired all the time.
The deadline is 28th June. CAB advised me to get it in by 21st June, but I said it wouldnt be enough time, and could I send it by 24th June instead?
I don't know how important my doctors letter is in avoiding getting a 'fit-to-work' decision, but as I want to be in the support group, would it matter if I sent my doctors letter in after the deadline. (will send form in on 24th june guaranteed next day delivery post)
I know the camping trip seems trivial, but I need some time away, and it is an opportunity to see friends I don't normally see as they are away, and I think it would do me good.

Whaddya think, will a late GP's letter fuck up any chance of being in the support group?

Thanks


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## panpete (Jun 18, 2013)

spirals said:


> I asked during every phone call I had with them (atleast 4) and they 'forgot' to pass that onto the place where I was interviewed so I would send them a letter asking for it to be recorded and perhaps even tell them you have recorded the call when/if you ask for it to be recorded!


Hi am a bit confused, do you mean record the telephone call with Atos?
If so, how would I go about doing that?
Thanks


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## spirals (Jun 18, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi am a bit confused, do you mean record the telephone call with Atos?
> If so, how would I go about doing that?
> Thanks


 
You know that bit at the beginning of most calls where they say 'your calls may be recorded for training purposes.' Well once an ATOS member of staff had lied to me and been quite rude when I asked for his name and identifying number so I started to tell them at the beginning of any contact that I was recording the calls due to having cognitive/concentration issues. Funnily enough once I started doing this I had far less problems with ATOS call centre workers and they miraculously managed to pass on requests/give the correct information out. 

I use an app on my phone but you could use a dictaphone too. You do need to tell people you are recording the calls though.


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## panpete (Jun 18, 2013)

spirals said:


> You know that bit at the beginning of most calls where they say 'your calls may be recorded for training purposes.' Well once an ATOS member of staff had lied to me and been quite rude when I asked for his name and identifying number so I started to tell them at the beginning of any contact that I was recording the calls due to having cognitive/concentration issues. Funnily enough once I started doing this I had far less problems with ATOS call centre workers and they miraculously managed to pass on requests/give the correct information out.
> 
> I use an app on my phone but you could use a dictaphone too. You do need to tell people you are recording the calls though.


Many thanks. I will look for an android app for my phone.
BTW congratulations on getting the benefit you deserve and may you enjoy your hassle free life.


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## WouldBe (Jun 19, 2013)

spirals said:


> You do need to tell people you are recording the calls though.


If you're recording it for your own use you don't need to tell them.

If you get hassle from them you can always tell them you're recording it at the end and then listen to them shitting themselves. 


panpete you can get a telephone adapter for about £10 from Maplin that plugs into your phone line and can be plugged into your dictaphone.


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## WouldBe (Jun 19, 2013)

The way those bastards treat us if you get hassle from them just tell them at the end of the call that you're recording it anyway even if you don't own a dictaphone.


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## spirals (Jun 19, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> The way those bastards treat us if you get hassle from them just tell them at the end of the call that you're recording it anyway even if you don't own a dictaphone.


I have to admit I usually waited until they'd been unpleasant before I would say something like 'Oh I forgot to say at the start I'm recording the call, it's for my notes', then enjoyed listening to the panic 

There was one person, David who was calling from Cardiff who actually called me a liar when I said I'd requested the interview to be recorded in a previous call. I told him that was unacceptable and asked for his identifying no as I was very unhappy with the way he spoke to me. He refused to give me it and told me that just say it was David from cardiff, that he was the only one there. I pointed out I'd lived in cardiff and knew many, many Davids as it was a very common name and I knew he had to give me his identifying code thingy on request so he hung up on me! Cheeky fecker!


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Still not heard anything from ATOS but my ESA didn't come through this week.
> I have had a million appointments (obviously that is an exaggeration) this week and have been too stressed to cope with phoning them.
> I am worried that ATOS have allegedly contacted me about an assessment, I have not received it and they have stopped my ESA
> I know I have to phone them on Monday but just needed to vent.
> This is all soooo fucking stressful!


 
How'd it go?


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## Quartz (Jun 19, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> The way those bastards treat us if you get hassle from them just tell them at the end of the call that you're recording it anyway even if you don't own a dictaphone.


 

Surely all you need to do is remind them that their bosses are recording it?


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## kittyP (Jun 19, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> How'd it go?


 

They said they didn't know why it hadn't come through. Said they would call back and didn't. 
Was out all day with stressful appointments yesterday so didn't get to call them back. 
Same shit from them again today. 
Jobcentre informed badgers that we have probably been receiving far too little ESA from the beginning. Great, yet another thing to spend months chasing and fighting for. 
I've  fucking had enough to be honest


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> They said they didn't know why it hadn't come through. Said they would call back and didn't.
> Was out all day with stressful appointments yesterday so didn't get to call them back.
> Same shit from them again today.
> Jobcentre informed badgers that we have probably been receiving far too little ESA from the beginning. Great, yet another thing to spend months chasing and fighting for.
> I've fucking had enough to be honest


 
Christ. So have you not been paid at all?


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## kittyP (Jun 19, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Christ. So have you not been paid at all?


 

No. Thankfully we had the HB backpayment so have had some money.


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## geminisnake (Jun 19, 2013)

My first ESA payment is due tomorrow. I am a bit anxious. I had to say no to taking my granddaughter to sign class because if I don't get paid I need to be able to deal with it there and then, which I can't do if I'm watching her


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## Greebo (Jun 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> They said they didn't know why it hadn't come through. <snip>
> Jobcentre informed badgers that we have probably been receiving far too little ESA from the beginning.<snip>


Liked because at last they're admitting that it's their mistake not yours - sorry that you and Badgers are still being messed around.


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## kittyP (Jun 19, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> My first ESA payment is due tomorrow. I am a bit anxious. I had to say no to taking my granddaughter to sign class because if I don't get paid I need to be able to deal with it there and then, which I can't do if I'm watching her


 

Fingers crossed for you honey x


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 19, 2013)

kittyP said:


> No. Thankfully we had the HB backpayment so have had some money.


 


kittyP said:


> Fingers crossed for you honey x


 
And you.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 19, 2013)

Oh shit, listen to this though - Ages ago, last september probably, I got a text of some mates who I used to be down with in the old estate where I moved away from to get away from everything. Can you help us with this ESA50 form? I was at it "I'm not sure" coz when it was PCA forms for IB, I used to fill them in for people for fun, I knew how to do them good style, but when ESA came in I stopped doing it coz I didn't want the burden of faliure on me shoulders, but on this occasion I went "Ok, but just for old times sake and I can garuantee fuck all, the rules have changed, all bets are off etc". They went "Ok, we still trust you, and we won't blame you etc"

Didn't hear from them in ages after that and I thought he might've failed the med and was blamin me, but nah, we're just crap at keepin in touch.

Anyway_, _his bird rang me the other day &_ he passed_, mint.

Confidence back in me own abilities.

The only fucker is - I wrote pretty much the same on his form as mine & yet I had to go to appeal.

Still though, fuckin result.

Confidence back in my own abilities


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## WouldBe (Jun 20, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Surely all you need to do is remind them that their bosses are recording it?


Have you tried to get a copy of one of their recordings? I've heard it's nigh on impossible. They will string you along and fob you off with excuses even if they have recorded it. If you tell them you have recorded it then you have the upper hand. Squirm you bastards.


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## geminisnake (Jun 20, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Fingers crossed for you honey x


 
It was there, hurray!


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 20, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> It was there, hurray!


 
Nice one!


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## audiotech (Jun 20, 2013)

Although a tory, my MP is on the case and has raised concerns in a letter to Lord 'unelected by anyone' Freud of why the 24 months stay of execution is not being adhered to by Atos Healthcare, by sending me an assessment form less than 12 months after the Tribunal Service awarded in my favour. Personally it stinks and some may believe it to be a corrupt practice to get some more of the taxpayers jolly?


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## audiotech (Jun 21, 2013)

Disabled man turned away from his incapacity medical assessment by Atos because a decision was made that his wheelchair was a "health and safety risk". So, no disability access at a medical centre that makes assessments on people who are disabled. Atos Healthcare are beginning to look like they couldn't run a whelk stall.

Source.


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## Greebo (Jun 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Disabled man turned away from his incapacity medical assessment by Atos because a decision was made that his wheelchair was a "health and safety risk". So, no disability access at a medical centre that makes assessments on people who are disabled. Atos Healthcare are beginning to look like they couldn't run a whelk stall.
> 
> Source.


 
FFS!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Disabled man turned away from his incapacity medical assessment by Atos because a decision was made that his wheelchair was a "health and safety risk". So, no disability access at a medical centre that makes assessments on people who are disabled. Atos Healthcare are beginning to look like they couldn't run a whelk stall.
> 
> Source.


 
So, another inaccessibility issue to add to the others (assessment offices on upper floors of buildings without lifts being the most prevalent issue).


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## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2013)

They really are incapable of handling the assessments.


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## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

I was just with a friend I havent seen for a year as they live in the midlands and me south west and they failed their ESA so they went to apply for JSA and were told they were too unwell to jobseek and claim JSA.
So, my friend has had absolutely no income for three months and has had to rely on their friends who live near them.


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## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> If you're recording it for your own use you don't need to tell them.
> 
> If you get hassle from them you can always tell them you're recording it at the end and then listen to them shitting themselves.
> 
> ...


Hi

So, if I take in a dictaphone, and record the assessment, and tell them AT THE END of the assessment that I recorded it, what can they do?
Also, would I need to hide my dictaphone in my bag?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi
> 
> So, if I take in a dictaphone, and record the assessment, and tell them AT THE END of the assessment that I recorded it, what can they do?
> Also, would I need to hide my dictaphone in my bag?


I think people are talking about telling people you're recording PHONE CALLS.

If you record the assessment, you're better off not telling them at all - there's no advantage to be gained. If you tell them you're recording before, they're likely just to call the assessment off, and why bother telling them you recorded it afterwards? Far better to quietly go home, write the recording up as notes, and use them - as you are entitled to - as evidence in your appeal.


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I think people are talking about telling people you're recording PHONE CALLS.
> 
> If you record the assessment, you're better off not telling them at all - there's no advantage to be gained. If you tell them you're recording before, they're likely just to call the assessment off, and why bother telling them you recorded it afterwards? Far better to quietly go home, write the recording up as notes, and use them - as you are entitled to - as evidence in your appeal.


Thanks but I want to avoid an appeal, as you no longer get paid while waiting for the appeal, as the decision maker looks at the appeal papers before deciding if it's worth appealing against.
There is no time limit for the decision maker so this could take ages and there will be a gap in paymnet.

Also, I am requesting a recording on my form, and I am going to ask someone also to phone them and ask if my interview can be recorded. I am concerned that they may fail to provide recording equipment, that is why I would be bringing a dictaphone, and if they try to terminate the assessment, I would just say "I have a copy of my form and it clearly states that I would like my interview recorded, as you have failed to do that, i brought my own dictaphone in.

What do you think?

Also see a copy of Wouldbe's post below


----------



## existentialist (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Thanks but I want to avoid an appeal, as you no longer get paid while waiting for the appeal, as the decision maker looks at the appeal papers before deciding if it's worth appealing against.
> There is no time limit for the decision maker so this could take ages and there will be a gap in paymnet.
> 
> Also, I am requesting a recording on my form, and I am going to ask someone also to phone them and ask if my interview can be recorded. I am concerned that they may fail to provide recording equipment, that is why I would be bringing a dictaphone, and if they try to terminate the assessment, I would just say "I have a copy of my form and it clearly states that I would like my interview recorded, as you have failed to do that, i brought my own dictaphone in.
> ...


*despair* This thread is full of examples of what can happen if you try to record sessions. And you recording your own session will make no difference to how it is conducted, for all the reasons that have been gone into already.

A lot of people have gone to a lot of trouble to help you understand what the best path to take is: why not, instead of coming up with "new" ideas whose manifest drawbacks are a matter of record, just take the excellent advice you've been given?

It may not feel like it to you, but your situation isn't fundamentally that different to those of the majority of people enduring ATOS assessment.


----------



## Jackobi (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Thanks but I want to avoid an appeal, as you no longer get paid while waiting for the appeal, as the decision maker looks at the appeal papers before deciding if it's worth appealing against.


 
Yep, there were changes introduced in Section 102 Schedule 11 of the Welfare Reform Act, namely the 'Power to require consideration of revision before appeal'.

Which effectively means there is no longer an immediate right of appeal against a benefit claim award before a claim has been considered for revision. During the consideration period, there is no intermediate payment of benefit, as is the case during an appeal, which is the appeal rate.

To clarify, there is no payment during the consideration period, but there is when awaiting an appeal. As far as I know, the mandatory consideration of revision before appeal was introduced in April 2013 for PIP and UC claimants, but will not apply to other benefit claims until October 2013. Even if you do have to appeal, you should still qualify for the appeal rate if it is before October.


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> *despair* This thread is full of examples of what can happen if you try to record sessions. And you recording your own session will make no difference to how it is conducted, for all the reasons that have been gone into already.
> 
> A lot of people have gone to a lot of trouble to help you understand what the best path to take is: why not, instead of coming up with "new" ideas whose manifest drawbacks are a matter of record, just take the excellent advice you've been given?
> 
> It may not feel like it to you, but your situation isn't fundamentally that different to those of the majority of people enduring ATOS assessment.


Hi, sorry, this is a mega-long thread, and I have only read the bits that are relevant to me, so have missed most of the other info on recording.

I am a bit confused. What have I said to suggest that my ESA process will be different to anyone elses on here?


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> Yep, there were changes introduced in Section 102 Schedule 11 of the Welfare Reform Act, namely the 'Power to require consideration of revision before appeal'.
> 
> Which effectively means there is no longer an immediate right of appeal against a benefit claim award before a claim has been considered for revision. During the consideration period, there is no intermediate payment of benefit, as is the case during an appeal, which is the appeal rate.
> 
> To clarify, there is no payment during the consideration period, but there is when awaiting an appeal. As far as I know, the mandatory consideration of revision before appeal was introduced in April 2013 for PIP and UC claimants, but will not apply to other benefit claims until October 2013. Even if you do have to appeal, you should still qualify for the appeal rate if it is before October.


Hi, does this mean that if I appeal, I will still probably get paid, given that my Atos assessment will no doubt be before October 2013?
If so, many thanks, this has made my day.


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## Jackobi (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi, does this mean that if I appeal, I will still probably get paid, given that my Atos assessment will no doubt be before October 2013?
> If so, many thanks, this has made my day.


 
EDIT panpete : I've realised it is your assessment before October and not an appeal, so you will possibly miss any changes. I'm not so certain about what would happen in a case where the claim date and appeal date fall either side of the changes. It's possible that because the appeal is considered from the date of the claim, any legislative changes during that time are not applicable.

"*DWP will reconsider all decisions before an appeal.* This change means that if someone disputes a decision, they will need to ask DWP to reconsider the decision before they can appeal to HMCTS. This is known as “mandatory reconsideration”."

"*When will these changes be introduced?*
DWP introduced all three changes for Personal Independence Payment and Universal Credit in April 2013. For all other DWP benefits and child maintenance cases, mandatory reconsideration, direct lodgement and time limits will be introduced towards the end of October 2013, and DWP will begin to report against the time limits from October 2014."

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/adviser/updates/appls-process-changesl/


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## existentialist (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi, sorry, this is a mega-long thread, and I have only read the bits that are relevant to me, so have missed most of the other info on recording.


Yes, it is a long thread, but these issues about recording have come up often enough. I recommend you familiarise yourself with the "Search" function. Even so, quite a few people - including me - have explained in some detail, in direct response to your queries, how you might best go about the whole recording-assessment thing, so it does feel a little galling when you then barrel up and go "Hey, I know, I'll just do it in this $TotallyDifferentWayToWhatHasBeenAdvised, that should be brilliant, wodjer think?"



panpete said:


> I am a bit confused. What have I said to suggest that my ESA process will be different to anyone elses on here?


Just the implication that, somehow, all of the advice that has been given to all of the other people in the same situation to you is somehow not applicable to you, but I think you've covered that adequately in your comment about not actually having read the whole thread.


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## yardbird (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi, sorry, this is a mega-long thread, and I have only read the bits that are relevant to me, so have missed most of the other info on recording.
> 
> I am a bit confused. What have I said to suggest that my ESA process will be different to anyone elses on here?


 
118 pages.
Take some time with a notepad and do read the thread.
The info and advice here will pre-arm you and my god you will need it - READ


----------



## yardbird (Jun 22, 2013)

yardbird said:


> 118 pages.
> Take some time with a notepad and do read the thread.
> The info and advice here will pre-arm you and my god you will need it - READ


 
This is important.


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> EDIT panpete : I've realised it is your assessment before October and not an appeal, so you will possibly miss any changes. I'm not so certain about what would happen in a case where the claim date and appeal date fall either side of the changes. It's possible that because the appeal is considered from the date of the claim, any legislative changes during that time are not applicable.
> 
> "*DWP will reconsider all decisions before an appeal.* This change means that if someone disputes a decision, they will need to ask DWP to reconsider the decision before they can appeal to HMCTS. This is known as “mandatory reconsideration”."
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's brilliant and takes a bit of a weight off my mind, as my assessment is bound to be in July or August and if I don't get the result I want, i will still get ESA, albeit at a lower rate, much better than nothing.

Also, I did mention that I will ask someone to call Atos more than once to ask for my interview to be recorded, as per the advice on here.

woops edited wrong post.


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Yes, it is a long thread, but these issues about recording have come up often enough. I recommend you familiarise yourself with the "Search" function. Even so, quite a few people - including me - have explained in some detail, in direct response to your queries, how you might best go about the whole recording-assessment thing, so it does feel a little galling when you then barrel up and go "Hey, I know, I'll just do it in this $TotallyDifferentWayToWhatHasBeenAdvised, that should be brilliant, wodjer think?"
> 
> 
> Just the implication that, somehow, all of the advice that has been given to all of the other people in the same situation to you is somehow not applicable to you, but I think you've covered that adequately in your comment about not actually having read the whole thread.


OK I will do a search, thanks.

EDIT
I didn't mean to annoy you. I was just really anxious about the process, especially because I believed at the time that if I didn't get the result I wanted, I would not be paid, due to changes in the appeal process.
I have however, just found out, ( see my post below) that the change in apapeal for ESA will not happen until october, so that has reduced my anxiety to a manageable level.


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## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

yardbird said:


> This is important.


That's a bit of a tall order for somene with depression and very little energy, but I will have a good go.


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## yardbird (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> That's a bit of a tall order for somene with depression and very little energy, but I will have a good go.


 

Give it a go -
I can relate to depression and very little energy.

You may find answers to things that really help.


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## Celt (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> That's a bit of a tall order for somene with depression and very little energy, but I will have a good go.


 

I dentify with this also, but getting a handle on the thing that causes you anxiety, having an informed opinion, informed by the path that other people have trodden (this thread) will make you stronger. IMHO


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete I cannot reply to your PM as you must have your settings set to 'not able to receive PMs'.

The LIMA software user has boxes where they can submit additional information gained during the assessment, perhaps an answer the claimant gives to that question. But when the automated report is generated, it does not include the information in the boxes. You must still give as much information as possible in the form.


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## Greebo (Jun 22, 2013)

Celt said:


> I dentify with this also, but getting a handle on the thing that causes you anxiety, having an informed opinion, informed by the path that other people have trodden (this thread) will make you stronger. IMHO


 
Exactly - knowledge is power.


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> panpete I cannot reply to your PM as you must have your settings set to 'not able to receive PMs'.
> 
> The LIMA software user has boxes where they can submit additional information gained during the assessment, perhaps an answer the claimant gives to that question. But when the automated report is generated, it does not include the information in the boxes. You must still give as much information as possible in the form.


Hi
Thanks
I've been sending and receiving messages today.
I had a look at how to check if settings are set to receive messages, but am unable to find it. Please could you tell me how to go about locating the setting so I can check?


----------



## panpete (Jun 22, 2013)

Celt said:


> I dentify with this also, but getting a handle on the thing that causes you anxiety, having an informed opinion, informed by the path that other people have trodden (this thread) will make you stronger. IMHO


Hi

I've started reading the thread and have read ten pages. I am starting to lose focus and not take it all in, so I think I will stop there for now. Hope it doesn't take me ten or more days to read it.


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## equationgirl (Jun 22, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi
> Thanks
> I've been sending and receiving messages today.
> I had a look at how to check if settings are set to receive messages, but am unable to find it. Please could you tell me how to go about locating the setting so I can check?


 
I don't know, try the feedback forum and ask the question there?.


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## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Intriguing.


Unable to access cos its private.


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I did a bit of research on the questionnaire and the ATOS software being used during these assessments back in January to see if it would help anybody going through this on urban. Here is a post I made earlier on the thread:
> 
> 'The software appears to be a closely guarded secret of the DWP (even though the taxpayer will have paid many millions towards it, it's owned by Atos). Basically the links - including the manual - show the reasons why everyone is getting really wrong reports.
> 
> ...


What's happened to the abc of ESA site?


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

Help.

I've still got loads of additional info to put on my form, and I have to read this thread.
I get tired really easily and am worried I am not going to get it all done by sending off time on Tuesday, cos four weeks has not been enough time.

*upto page 11 on thread*


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

Please can someone help me navigate the benefitsandwork site.
I keep going round in circles, and am looking for the members ESA guide to mental health filling form, as I have last years and things have changed since then.
I just joined as a member and activated my email and it wont let me access he guide, only the non members guide.
That site is a fucking nightmare to navigate,nearly as bad as the esa form.


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

Sorry, I can't do this on my own. Too much to do, and i am mentally exhausted and frightened its gonna make me lose my temper and bang my head againt the wall. I have to read this whole thread, only read 11 pages AND complete my form by Tuesday and it feels like its just not gonna happen cos i wanna go back to bed.

I've found the benefitsandwork booklet for mentally ill people but i don't understand it and have loads of questions and nobody to check what i put once its complete-already been to CAB.


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## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2013)

panpete said:


> What's happened to the abc of ESA site?


 
Hmmmm, it seems to have gone offline. I'll see if I can find out why.

panpete it got moved:

http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2013)

panpete said:


> Sorry, I can't do this on my own. Too much to do, and i am mentally exhausted and frightened its gonna make me lose my temper and bang my head againt the wall. I have to read this whole thread, only read 11 pages AND complete my form by Tuesday and it feels like its just not gonna happen cos i wanna go back to bed.
> 
> I've found the benefitsandwork booklet for mentally ill people but i don't understand it and have loads of questions and nobody to check what i put once its complete-already been to CAB.


 
Look, I think you've done enough for the form. Finish it and send it off recorded delivery - that way if they pretend they haven't got it, you have a way of proving they have.

Work through the thread in preparation for your assessment, if you get called for one.


----------



## Quartz (Jun 23, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Look, I think you've done enough for the form. Finish it and send it off recorded delivery - that way if they pretend they haven't got it, you have a way of proving they have.


 

Just a nitpick, but Recorded Delivery doesn't stop the Post Office from losing it. To be absolutely sure you need to send it *Registered* Post. And be sure to take a photocopy of the completed form before you send it.

The very best of luck to you.


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

Hi and thanks

I decided to become a member of benefitsandwork as they have an ESA book with lots of helpful advice.
I am still only on question 14. I have not got enough info on my form or continuatoin sheet.

Most worrying, i cannot think of any examples of problems, cos my mind is blank.
I have only got two days to go and I am busy doing other stuff on those days, cos doing this does my head in.

Regarding post, is guaranteed next day delivery post the same as registered post?

ps I am not going to get time to read the atos theread, another 114 pages will keep me up till morning and I need my sleep.
I will search for the word "record" so i know what to do about ensureing my intervriew is recorded.

Thanks


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 23, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi and thanks
> 
> I decided to become a member of benefitsandwork as they have an ESA book with lots of helpful advice.
> I am still only on question 14. I have not got enough info on my form or continuatoin sheet.
> ...


 
Don't worry about using the form or continuation sheet.  Just type info on a separate sheet, making sure you have your name and NI number on it, and maybe headings telling them what answer relates to which question etc.

Or you could do as equationgirl says, and send it off now.

Or is it worth asking for an extension?  Not sure how they feel about giving extensions


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jun 23, 2013)

Anyone seen this?  I never knew ATOS had a blog

http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/recording-of-assessments-using-personal-equipment/


----------



## existentialist (Jun 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone seen this? I never knew ATOS had a blog
> 
> http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2012/12/recording-of-assessments-using-personal-equipment/


 



			
				ATOS said:
			
		

> We use specialist recording equipment that provides a high quality dual recording in a CD format.  You are given a copy of the CD at the end of the assessment and a second copy is stored securely by Atos Healthcare.
> If you wish to use your own equipment you must be able to provide a complete and identical copy of the recording to the healthcare professional at the end of the assessment.  It should be in CD or audio cassette format only.  Mobile phones are not suitable for this purpose.


In other words, "if you want to record your assessment because we can't, you're shit outta luck unless you happen to have a twin-deck CD recorder handy."

They must realise that the likelihood of most of their punters having such a piece of kit is well-nigh zero, but I guess it lets them off the hook if they can't arrange to record the assessment themselves.

This really is taking Kafaesqueness to new levels...


----------



## ash (Jun 23, 2013)

I'm not sure registered and recorded exist anymore, special delivery guarantees as signature and is traceable


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## Greebo (Jun 23, 2013)

ash said:


> I'm not sure registered and recorded exist anymore, special delivery guarantees as signature and is traceable


Signed for = recorded (orange sticker)

Special delivery = registered (silver sticker)


----------



## geminisnake (Jun 23, 2013)

panpete said:


> Most worrying, i cannot think of any examples of problems, cos my mind is blank.


 
Write that down. You are struggling to fill in the form due to high stress levels and you know you are missing vital bits of information from it because when you are stressed to the extreme your mind goes blank


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2013)

existentialist said:


> In other words, "if you want to record your assessment because we can't, you're shit outta luck unless you happen to have a twin-deck CD recorder handy."
> 
> They must realise that the likelihood of most of their punters having such a piece of kit is well-nigh zero, but I guess it lets them off the hook if they can't arrange to record the assessment themselves.
> 
> This really is taking Kafaesqueness to new levels...


 

Laptop with microphone to record into an audio editor then burn to CD at the end of the assessment. It can be done.


----------



## ash (Jun 23, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Signed for = recorded (orange sticker)
> 
> Special delivery = registered (silver sticker)


I often send stuff for work and ask for special delivery(signed for next day) and that's a silver label - confused ??


----------



## Greebo (Jun 23, 2013)

ash said:


> I often send stuff for work and ask for special delivery(signed for next day) and that's a silver label - confused ??


 
Both "signed for" *and* "special delivery" have to be signed for.


----------



## toggle (Jun 23, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi and thanks
> 
> I decided to become a member of benefitsandwork as they have an ESA book with lots of helpful advice.
> I am still only on question 14. I have not got enough info on my form or continuatoin sheet.
> ...


 
read some of the posts you ahve written.

whjen you've been stressed, loads of examples there


----------



## ash (Jun 23, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Both "signed for" *and* "special delivery" have to be signed for.


OK so special delivery is more secure then recorded? I think !


----------



## panpete (Jun 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Don't worry about using the form or continuation sheet. Just type info on a separate sheet, making sure you have your name and NI number on it, and maybe headings telling them what answer relates to which question etc.
> 
> Or you could do as equationgirl says, and send it off now.
> 
> Or is it worth asking for an extension? Not sure how they feel about giving extensions


Thanks. Hi I thought of asking for a time delay to give me more time as four weeks is not enough, but my keyworker said that is not possible.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Laptop with microphone to record into an audio editor then burn to CD at the end of the assessment. It can be done.


Will they consider it acceptable, though? My suspicion is that anything that isn't basically a big black box with a brand name on the front, that spits out two CDs at the end is going to give them all the excuse they need to say "nope, not buying it, sunshine".

After all, they're not interested in ensuring that valid recordings are made...


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Will they consider it acceptable, though? My suspicion is that anything that isn't basically a big black box with a brand name on the front, that spits out two CDs at the end is going to give them all the excuse they need to say "nope, not buying it, sunshine".
> 
> After all, they're not interested in ensuring that valid recordings are made...


 

It's what they've decided on and what they've said on the issue that matters and this crucial bit doesn't in anyway breach doing what I've suggested. There's nothing I've seen that mentions 'big black boxes with a brand name on it spitting out two CD's at the end' as a criteria, but I take your point and it would be wise to check first.



> _If you wish to use your own equipment you must be able to provide a complete and identical copy of the recording to the healthcare professional at the end of the assessment. It should be in CD or audio cassette format only._


----------



## Celt (Jun 23, 2013)

I sent mine by special delivery, it costs a lot but you can track it to delivery.

Do take a copy of the form and any other papers you send.

I don't honestly think we ever feel as though the form has all the information we want to convey.  

Your concerns about assessment and whether to record it or not, that isn't necessary at this time, say you want it recording but I wouldn't delay sending the form.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> It's what they've decided on and what they've said on the issue that matters and this crucial bit doesn't in anyway breach doing what I've suggested. There's nothing I've seen that mentions 'big black boxes with a brand name on it spitting out two CD's at the end' as a criteria, but I take your point and it would be wise to check first.


No, I agree. But I am sure you can imagine as well as I can the dark suspicions of one of their gloomy apparatchiks as you kick off the burning process for 2 CDs, rather than them emerging automagically and simultaneously from a big black box.

I'd love to see the experiment tried. It is interesting that the blog automatically insists that a smartphone will not be acceptable, for example: it should not be hard to interface a couple of CD writers to a smartphone, but they've already decided that's unacceptable. I suspect that is very indicative of the mindset we're dealing with here.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 23, 2013)

Indeed, like most outfits they'll want to cover their back at all times to uphold their "corporate integrity" and the "customer" forfeits any rights as deemed by themselves, (the corporate body) and are always wrong, as to state otherwise would be admitting liability.

"Consumer rights"? Tell me about it. Short and sweet, to fight on your own mainly. There's the Human Rights Act to consider though, that's why the tories want rid of it, or do their damnedest to bypass it, as they are doing with the 'bedroom tax'. As already mentioned "Reasonable Adjustment" could be applied in some cases. The out of court settlement Atos agreed to with a man who had requested door to door access because of his medical condition is a case in point.

Edit: That reminds me Barclays Bank are on my list of to do's next week. I'd have more fight if I didn't feel as exhausted most of the time, but that may change soon, or not, we'll see.


----------



## toggle (Jun 24, 2013)

existentialist said:


> No, I agree. But I am sure you can imagine as well as I can the dark suspicions of one of their gloomy apparatchiks as you kick off the burning process for 2 CDs, rather than them emerging automagically and simultaneously from a big black box.
> 
> I'd love to see the experiment tried. It is interesting that the blog automatically insists that a smartphone will not be acceptable, for example: it should not be hard to interface a couple of CD writers to a smartphone, but they've already decided that's unacceptable. I suspect that is very indicative of the mindset we're dealing with here.


 
somewhere out there, there's a blog post about the 'medical professionals' who are apparently stunned and disgusted that recording is possible. it's a direct attack on them apparently. questioning their ethics. it should not even be being discussed, let alone allowed. and encouragement needs to be given to those who refuse to allow themselves to be forced into doing recorded interviews.

someone find me that tiny violin.


----------



## yardbird (Jun 24, 2013)

Re the posting:
I thought that in this case the main point of Registered Post was so that ATOS could not say they didn't receive it.
Truly not a lot of chance of the PO losing it.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 24, 2013)

toggle said:


> somewhere out there, there's a blog post about the 'medical professionals' who are apparently stunned and disgusted that recording is possible. it's a direct attack on them apparently. questioning their ethics. it should not even be being discussed, let alone allowed. and encouragement needs to be given to those who refuse to allow themselves to be forced into doing recorded interviews.
> 
> someone find me that tiny violin.


 
Tricky ethical dilemma. I react pretty badly to the inevitable "if you've got nothing to hide, you've got nothing to fear" schtick from the government, because I think there are issues of privacy. But this is about professional conduct: not privacy. These people are working under a government contract to provide a State service, and the idea that assessments are documented and recorded in an open and accessible way seems obvious to me...unless, of course, they, also recognise that there is something to hide.

I would love to see a really good, strong campaign encouraging assessees to ask for their assessments to be recorded, to ask for copies of those recordings, and explaining that they have a right to do so, and what the reasons for wishing to do so might be. We might complain about the way in which the media is leading people by the nose, but a lot of claimants themselves are unwittingly and involuntarily complicit in a system which seems increasingly to be calculated to disadvantage them at every turn.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 24, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Re the posting:
> I thought that in this case the main point of Registered Post was so that ATOS could not say they didn't receive it.<snip>


 
It is.  The same goes for "signed for".


----------



## Greebo (Jun 24, 2013)

existentialist said:


> <snip>I would love to see a really good, strong campaign encouraging assessees to ask for their assessments to be recorded, to ask for copies of those recordings, and explaining that they have a right to do so, and what the reasons for wishing to do so might be. We might complain about the way in which the media is leading people by the nose, but a lot of claimants themselves are complicit in a system which seems increasingly to be calculated to disadvantage them at every turn.


 
"Complicit" or merely too confused, exhausted, stressed, and busy just trying to get through the day with an exacerbated condition?


----------



## existentialist (Jun 24, 2013)

Greebo said:


> "Complicit" or merely too confused, exhausted, stressed, and busy just trying to get through the day with an exacerbated condition?


 
Yes - I didn't mean to imply any judgement, so that was a poor choice of word. And I think the system is *designed* to minimise opposition by keeping claimants on the back foot, quite apart from what else is going on for them.

I've added "unwittingly and involuntarily" to the original post


----------



## culder (Jun 24, 2013)

*Panpete* - just got an e-mail saying you'd sent a message to me, but when I clicked on it I couldn't see a 'reply' button, so ended up sending my reply as a profile message, which was limited to a small number of characters, therefore I had to send several messages to say everything. I'm sure there's a better way but I'm out of practice here. So I hope you've managed to get everything I said.

Hello to everyone else who remembers me. Sorry I've been away so long. I'm still not back to normal mentally after last year's ordeal, and I hardly ever switch the computer on these days, or if I do I don't check forums like I used to.

Good vibes to everyone


----------



## Greebo (Jun 24, 2013)

culder said:


> *<snip>*Hello to everyone else who remembers me. Sorry I've been away so long. I'm still not back to normal mentally after last year's ordeal, and I hardly ever switch the computer on these days, or if I do I don't check forums like I used to.
> 
> Good vibes to everyone


 
culder, welcome back.  Great to hear that you haven't fallen off the face of the earth.


----------



## culder (Jun 24, 2013)

Hi Greebo! No, I'm still in the land of the living. Not at my best, but then I'm not sure which decade I last _was, _really! I'm badly out of date with this thread, unfortunately - I don't know what's happening with everyone, and it's an awful lot of reading to catch up on. Much applause to Panpete for reading the whole thing! Also thanks to Panpete for bringing me back. I'll try to keep up from now on.


----------



## panpete (Jun 24, 2013)

culder said:


> *Panpete* - just got an e-mail saying you'd sent a message to me, but when I clicked on it I couldn't see a 'reply' button, so ended up sending my reply as a profile message, which was limited to a small number of characters, therefore I had to send several messages to say everything. I'm sure there's a better way but I'm out of practice here. So I hope you've managed to get everything I said.
> 
> Hello to everyone else who remembers me. Sorry I've been away so long. I'm still not back to normal mentally after last year's ordeal, and I hardly ever switch the computer on these days, or if I do I don't check forums like I used to.
> 
> Good vibes to everyone


Hi Culder did you get my reply?
You can send longer messages, just go to your inbox, and hit the 'start conversation' button.


----------



## panpete (Jun 24, 2013)

culder said:


> Hi Greebo! No, I'm still in the land of the living. Not at my best, but then I'm not sure which decade I last _was, _really! I'm badly out of date with this thread, unfortunately - I don't know what's happening with everyone, and it's an awful lot of reading to catch up on. Much applause to Panpete for reading the whole thing! Also thanks to Panpete for bringing me back. I'll try to keep up from now on.


Hi I didnt actually get to read it all cos I was typing nearly all day yesterday (fell asleep yesterday afternoon for 2hrs cos I was knackered)

Re the recording. Yardbird said you can demand a recording. I have asked on my ESA50 form, and I will get a friend to call and hassle them for a recording.

The fuckers sent me a letter today cos they havent received my form, even though it's not due till 28th june.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

28th of June is my cut-off date. No letter of reminder. More importantly, no correspondence from them at all in response to my letter, sent weeks ago, asking why I'm being re-assessed at all, considering the tribunal recommendation? That goes too for the DWP, who I asked to forward me a decision when they said they would check with the Benefits Agency. My MP has forwarded his concerns to Lord Freud and nothing from him either, with four days to go before the dead-line. I've had to go to the A&E department this week and visit my GP yet again, this time to try and sort out some medication for the agonizing pain I'm going through, with a 94 day wait before I can see a neurosurgeon. This process is indeed "inhumane", as described by, I forget now who. I can attest to this. I come here to read and post to try and keep a grip on my sanity.

Edit: This messing with people's heads and pushing them to the limit is non other than deliberate surely? No organisation, not replying to letters, apparently "losing" papers, disregarding tribunal decisions, treating practice GP's with contempt, over-ruling their recommendations etc - a complete basket case in other words - can be as incompetent as this, can they?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

Edit: Well eventually had to ring the DWP again today and the person who answered my query has confirmed that I do NOT have to fill in the questionnaire that I received at the beginning of this month. Thanks Atos Healthcare, the DWP and whoever else was responsible for putting me through another period of hell.

Exhausted, over and out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 28th of June is my cut-off date. No letter of reminder. More importantly, no correspondence from them at all in response to my letter, sent weeks ago, asking why I'm being re-assessed at all, considering the tribunal recommendation? That goes too for the DWP, who I asked to forward me a decision when they said they would check with the Benefits Agency. My MP has forwarded his concerns to Lord Freud and nothing from him either, with four days to go before the dead-line. I've had to go to the A&E department this week and visit my GP yet again, this time to try and sort out some medication for the agonizing pain I'm going through, with a 94 day wait before I can see a neurosurgeon. This process is indeed "inhumane", as described by, I forget now who. I can attest to this. I come here to read and post to try and keep a grip on my sanity.


 
94 days?Ridiculous! 



> Edit: This messing with people's heads and pushing them to the limit is non other than deliberate surely? No organisation, not replying to letters, apparently "losing" papers, disregarding tribunal decisions, treating practice GP's with contempt, over-ruling their recommendations etc - a complete basket case in other words - can be as incompetent as this, can they?


 
Having first had experience of the system back in the '90s, I can tell you that they were nowhere near as shoddy as now (although they were still as uncaring). I realise that there's an argument to be made that this current shoddiness is the result of having tens of thousands of staff made redundant, but it pre-dates Cameron's pruning of the Civil Service. Arguably the rot started in 2000-01 when "new" Labour launched the Benefits Integrity Project, and got worse as they introduced each new "squeeze" on disabled and long-term sick people.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> 94 days?Ridiculous!
> 
> Having first had experience of the system back in the '90s, I can tell you that they were nowhere near as shoddy as now (although they were still as uncaring). I realise that there's an argument to be made that this current shoddiness is the result of having tens of thousands of staff made redundant, but it pre-dates Cameron's pruning of the Civil Service. Arguably the rot started in 2000-01 when "new" Labour launched the Benefits Integrity Project, and got worse as they introduced each new "squeeze" on disabled and long-term sick people.


 
See my edit above VP. They are really shoddy and I got a: "I don't want to know about your health, what's the reason for why you're ringing". There are other words that I could come up with to give a more suitable, to use their language, "descriptor".


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

Confession. I got a gram of speed to help me do this form. It will be done within the time. I couldnt think what else to do, I was so overwhelmed and drained, and scattered that I thought I would never get it done.
I am going to tell Atos that I resorted to doing this because it was the only way, and they will see how bad i am. Benefitsandwork said substance misuse not a problem, could even go in my favour.
Please be kind to me.

Gotta go and finish the rest


----------



## culder (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Culder did you get my reply?
> You can send longer messages, just go to your inbox, and hit the 'start conversation' button.


 

Sorry, can't seem to figure out how to find your reply. Dammit!


----------



## culder (Jun 25, 2013)

Not sure I know what to say about the drug use - I don't know how they would view that one way or another. Hopefully someone else has a better idea about it.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 25, 2013)

Panpete, DON'T tell ATOS you used speed to fill in the form. 

First, because they don't need to know. 

Secondly, because it will prove nothing. 

Thirdly, because you are essentially admitting to possession of a Class A drug, and you just don't know what they might do with that information. 

Fourthly, because they're quite likely to decide that your problems are drugs related, and therefore self-inflicted, and therefore somehow a reason not to award you points. 

And finally, because it's just a generally stupid idea that risks fucking things up in all kinds of ways that we normal humans can't figure out and that could wreck everything. 

Don't Do It.


----------



## culder (Jun 25, 2013)

I think I have to agree with that.


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Panpete, DON'T tell ATOS you used speed to fill in the form.
> 
> First, because they don't need to know.
> 
> ...


Aw shit am not gonna get it finished in time for postie if 'i start again, cos thats what i'll have to do.
Benefitsandwork say it is important to admit substance abuse and failing to do so, can lead to serious trouble or someting like that.

I'm handrwriting it out cos I dont want them to think I can work cos I can type (the 'you only need one finger to press a button brigade)

But,  on the other hand, the pages are dense and very very wordy. Six pages so far, will probs be eight.
Too much. Typical of speed. It's calmed me down getting it all out, but maybe, I feel the urge to redo it, only this time, take out all the padding etc and make it shorter but include all the points.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

Sounded like a higher up from the Ministry who just phoned: "I don't know whether it was system, or human error, but my apologies". I feel like I've just been in a re-make of Terry Gilliam's film, _Brazil_ and my name is now Sam Lowry. I fear now I may wake-up and find myself in a Dentists chair, in the middle of a cooling tower, with Jack Lint about to do his dirty work. Tuttle, where are you for gods sake!


----------



## existentialist (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> Aw shit am not gonna get it finished in time for postie if 'i start again, cos thats what i'll have to do.
> Benefitsandwork say it is important to admit substance abuse and failing to do so, can lead to serious trouble or someting like that.


I had little doubt that you'd respond to my advice with all kinds of good reasons why it shouldn't apply. I also notice that you've rather misunderstood what I said - I wasn't saying "don't DO the form on speed" (that's a whole other matter, and I thought I'd probably be wasting my time and yours by saying that), just don't announce to ATOS that that is what you've done.

It may well be that benefitsandwork do recommend you mention substance abuse, but I suspect they're talking about that as part of your general pathology, rather than announcing that the form was completed under the influence.

I suggest you don't go back and redo it - on past form, that sounds like a guaranteed way of making sure it doesn't get done. And if you do insist on wanting to tell them that you took speed to do it, then nobody here is going to stop you - but...well, it's what I said a few days ago about a lot of people offering advice in a spirit of supportiveness, and your tendency to be a little more than selective about a) which you take, and b) taking responsibility.

I guess we can do no more than advise, and resist the temptation to say "Told you so" if it should go all runny further down the line.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

£280,000 grand pay rise enough?


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I had little doubt that you'd respond to my advice with all kinds of good reasons why it shouldn't apply. I also notice that you've rather misunderstood what I said - I wasn't saying "don't DO the form on speed" (that's a whole other matter, and I thought I'd probably be wasting my time and yours by saying that), just don't announce to ATOS that that is what you've done.
> 
> It may well be that benefitsandwork do recommend you mention substance abuse, but I suspect they're talking about that as part of your general pathology, rather than announcing that the form was completed under the influence.
> 
> ...


Phew, that's that sent off.

I did end up having to redo it, because I was on my 6th page and I had mentioned speed on the fourth page, and because of the way the pages all continued from one another, I couldn't very well just take that one page out.
I just made it, phew.

I wouldn't have got it finished if I hadnt've done speed.

Speed isn't something I have done for ages but it was the only way I thought I could get it done.
I didn't do the sheets of info all in one big go, I had breaks for food and a listen to some tunes to give myself rests.

I've probably left loads out but I made it alot shorter.
There was still 6 sheets, but the writing was much more spaced out, so less took up more.

Hhahahahahhaha, the previous one which I threw away had smaller writing and very densely packed. At least with the new one, whoever reads it wont fall asleep long before they have read it.

One last question. The ESA guide from benefitsandwork seemed to want you to get whoever was writing your supporting letters of evidence, to base their letters on descriptors that go with each question.
There's no way my GP would have time to read the descriptors, or any of the other people who wrote supporting letters.

I would have a hell of a time explaining that to the various people who wrote my supporting letters, and, tbh, I think that the people who wrote my supporting letters would be a bit pissed off if I expected them to read the descriptors in the ESA guide.

B&W said, if anything is incorrect on the letters, it could ruin your case.
Maybe B&W are just covering their backsides.

*sits back and enjoys comedown* hahahahha 

One of the questions was about tasks. I just spent hours explaining to Atos that I cannot do tasks, yet compiling that sheet was one fucking big task, but I have been preparing it since January 2012.

Back then I started a document, and every time i thought of a problem I had that stopped me doing various things, I wrote it down as it occured to me, so there was a ready done list, when the form came.
I thought it a bit obsessive starting that document in jan 2012, but now I am glad I was obsessive, cos that was a real tight squeeze.


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> £280,000 grand pay rise enough?


Warning NSFW
Gonna try to do a NSFW tag but it's only guessing, so if it's incorrect, I'd love someone to put me right.


Spoiler



NSFW
What a 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





[\spoiler]


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2013)

audiotech said:


> £280,000 grand pay rise enough?


 
Another one for the dartboard.


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## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> Confession. I got a gram of speed to help me do this form. It will be done within the time. I couldnt think what else to do, I was so overwhelmed and drained, and scattered that I thought I would never get it done.
> I am going to tell Atos that I resorted to doing this because it was the only way, and they will see how bad i am. Benefitsandwork said substance misuse not a problem, could even go in my favour.
> Please be kind to me.
> 
> Gotta go and finish the rest


 
Panpete, we've been through this issue before - there is no point telling Atos about this. They will not care that you did this, and I doubt they would see it as evidence of how bad you are. I think it's a huge gamble thinking this would go in your favour.

Just do your best with the form.

ETA: Congratulations on completing it. First hurdle cleared


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Panpete, we've been through this issue before - there is no point telling Atos about this. They will not care that you did this, and I doubt they would see it as evidence of how bad you are. I think it's a huge gamble thinking this would go in your favour.
> 
> Just do your best with the form.
> 
> ETA: Congratulations on completing it. First hurdle cleared


Hi I probably missed loads out, because, when the 'tell 'em they drove me to speed' idea wasn't so popular, I decided to not risk it. I was just saying to them "you drove me to drugs you bastard" but, no, Atos are ice cold and they won't hear, they don't give a fuck who dies, because they lost the plot.


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## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

Just checking, I sent copies of the supporting evidence letters off with the original form, and kept all the original letters with a copy of the form - did I do right?
I kept a copy of my own handwritten three double sided A4 sheets with spaced out writing on, and sent them the original.


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## Quartz (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> they don't give a fuck who dies, because they lost the plot.


 
It's worse than that. If this thread is anything to go by, their actions are quite deliberate. But fear not: once you get to the appeals tribunal, you will get a fair hearing. All the trouble that ATOS make you go through is entirely deliberate and designed to make you give up before you get to that point.


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

When do we get to the bit where everyone happy, with enough money, and no one is out to destroy anyone?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2013)

Not on this yellow brick road.


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

But am sick of recessions and wars.
We weren't born to go through recessions we were born to experience all the earth has to offer and to learn to love.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> When do we get to the bit where everyone happy, with enough money, and no one is out to destroy anyone?


"We" don't.  This is the real world, not the Land at the Back of the North Wind.

It's bleak, and it's harsh, and it's sometimes got far too many sharp edges, but it's all any of us have got, so we might as well stop waiting for it to get better and start by stopping each of our little bits from getting any worse while waiting for the cavalry to come over the hill.  

They're not coming.  

We're all there ever is.  Sorry.  

Not having a go at you panpete, you're not alone in just wanting this to be made better by somebody else, but it's not going to happen.


----------



## panpete (Jun 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> "We" don't. This is the real world, not the Land at the Back of the North Wind.
> 
> It's bleak, and it's harsh, and it's sometimes got far too many sharp edges, but it's all any of us have got, so we might as well stop waiting for it to get better and start by stopping each of our little bits from getting any worse while waiting for the cavalry to come over the hill.
> 
> ...


But it's not real, it's gone insane.
There is a big weight towards fear, loss, negativity, misery etc, that's not real.
We are being f*cked up the arse by greedy bullies, just like you get in school, no better.
Overgrown toddlers in charge of the world.
It is like a topsy turvy land in itself.
You can't have all bad, it's just not possible, in that you cannot have all black, you need light to be able to know dark and vice versa, it's just that the scales are really skewed at the moment.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 25, 2013)

panpete If you ever wonder where the good stuff is, it's here, around you.  Scattered, fragmented, but still there.  All you have to do is look around hard enough to find it.

People used to think that 4 leaf clovers made them lucky - IMHO they were wrong.  It's just that when people are so aware of what's around them that they can spot a 4 leaf clover, they're probably able to notice other things which might help them to improve their own chances.
</derail>


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## Celt (Jun 26, 2013)

I'm glad you got your form in.

I'm on my way to the benefits advice and am ridiculously anxious.

Have just re read the report from my ATOS medical, 

onward


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## panpete (Jun 26, 2013)

Celt said:


> I'm glad you got your form in.
> 
> I'm on my way to the benefits advice and am ridiculously anxious.
> 
> ...


Aww shit, are you appealing? If so, good luck.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 26, 2013)

Celt said:


> I'm glad you got your form in.
> 
> I'm on my way to the benefits advice and am ridiculously anxious.
> 
> ...


 
Hope it went well today Celt.


----------



## Celt (Jun 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hope it went well today Celt.


 
all right is overstating it a bit, basically I'm on my own if I appeal, the Benefits Advice Shop cannot support me in my appeal because they are busy supporting people who don't get ESA at all, they have suggested however that I do appeal, if I gather further medical evidence they will look at the evidence and give me a likelyhood of winning my appeal,  its fair enough i suppose, I am just a little self absorbed at the moment, I have difficulties reading the decision makers 30 page "medical evidence" and decision, in the next couple of days I need to go through that and work out how many of the points are plain wrong or have been misjudged, otherwise come November when my contibution based ESA runs out, I will loose £50 a week which is what my pension pays.  I would then be moving on to means tested ESA, which my pension counts as income for.  Rightly or wrongly I have got used to having that amount of money coming in and I will find it hard to loose.  In the years when I had my mortgage I used this amount to pay my mortgage, I have had no housing benefit, I would become entitled to the various means tested benefits, such as council tax benefit.

I have 9 years left to retirement, I haven't worked for pay since my spinal surgery in 1984, but I would need to argue that I am never going to be well enough to return to work, I am not sure that what little self respect I have left will allow me to do this.  I do voluntary work with a local mental health charity when I am able.  You know I am going to finish here for the moment, I feel proper judged at the moment and need to wind my neck in and have a think.

Thank you contributers for putting up with this scrounger.


----------



## toggle (Jun 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have 9 years left to retirement, I haven't worked for pay since my spinal surgery in 1984, but I would need to argue that I am never going to be well enough to return to work, I am not sure that what little self respect I have left will allow me to do this. I do voluntary work with a local mental health charity when I am able. You know I am going to finish here for the moment, I feel proper judged at the moment and need to wind my neck in and have a think.
> 
> Thank you contributers for putting up with this scrounger.


 
whatever all this bullshit is making you feel, you don't have to be ashamed for the position you are in. you are not lazy, you are not a scrounger. you are someone who, through no fault of their own needs to use the safety net that our society provides. i can add a long rant about the people who fought for you to have this right, and not feel like shit about it, but you really do know all this already.

So you can't work, because you can't control when you are able to. that isn't a reflection on you as a person. on your value as a person and on your right to be treated with some respect.

one of the purposes of this shite is to bully people into thinking that they are useless unless they work, even if they are unfit, even if it will make their health worse, even if ti's killing them. and it's still bullshit.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> <snip>Thank you contributers for putting up with this scrounger.


 
That's enough of that, Celt.  

You're not a scrounger, nobody is, and I refuse to let you call yourself that even ironically.

Sorry to hear of your trouble, I hope that you'll be able to get the level of benefits which you need.  I suggest that you PM ViolentPanda tomorrow (he won't be online before about 11am).


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## audiotech (Jun 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> all right is overstating it a bit, basically I'm on my own if I appeal, the Benefits Advice Shop cannot support me in my appeal because they are busy supporting people who don't get ESA at all, they have suggested however that I do appeal, if I gather further medical evidence they will look at the evidence and give me a likelyhood of winning my appeal, its fair enough i suppose, I am just a little self absorbed at the moment, I have difficulties reading the decision makers 30 page "medical evidence.....


 
I was in a similar position, on my own, but I managed to gather up the strength to do all I needed and an appeal was awarded in my favour, so don't give up just yet. Try welfare rights, who may not be able to represent you, but will give advice and may help you write a submission for the appeal hearing. You have a right to have that 30 paged document typed, so it's readable. Get onto the DWP for them to do that. Now's the time to get an appeal in and I see you've done that, so well done, gather as much info as you can. The DWP don't usually turn-up to appeals, so it's pretty informal, but you'll need to prepare well. Every success.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> But it's not real, it's gone insane.
> There is a big weight towards fear, loss, negativity, misery etc, that's not real.
> We are being f*cked up the arse by greedy bullies, just like you get in school, no better.
> Overgrown toddlers in charge of the world.
> ...


 
This is good panpete. I won't claim this as my own, nevertheless, '"cynical realists" are the most blind to what's going on and illusions are at the heart of real life. We need critique more than ever' and yours fits the bill. Develop it some more.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> They're not coming.


 
Solidarity networks are here though, these will develop more and more, so important not to become a cynic and do nothing.


----------



## tufty79 (Jun 27, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Solidarity networks are here though, these will develop more and more, so important not to become a cynic and do nothing.


i want to like both yours and greebo's posts


----------



## yardbird (Jun 27, 2013)

I've only just seen this -
http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...fit-assessments-99623-33506311/#ixzz2Wq9exiXI


----------



## Greebo (Jun 27, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I've only just seen this -
> http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...fit-assessments-99623-33506311/#ixzz2Wq9exiXI


 
Appalling.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 27, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I've only just seen this -
> http://www.liverpooldailypost.co.uk...fit-assessments-99623-33506311/#ixzz2Wq9exiXI


Another ATOS footbullet. This needs to be encouraged to happen a lot more - let the paranoid corporation show itself in its true colours.


----------



## Celt (Jun 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> That's enough of that, Celt.
> 
> You're not a scrounger, nobody is, and I refuse to let you call yourself that even ironically.
> 
> Sorry to hear of your trouble, I hope that you'll be able to get the level of benefits which you need. I suggest that you PM ViolentPanda tomorrow (he won't be online before about 11am).


 

I will do when I get back, taking my ma to the hospital to be given a 24 hour heart monitor.


audiotech said:


> I was in a similar position, on my own, but I managed to gather up the strength to do all I needed and an appeal was awarded in my favour, so don't give up just yet. Try welfare rights, who may not be able to represent you, but will give advice and may help you write a submission for the appeal hearing. You have a right to have that 30 paged document typed, so it's readable. Get onto the DWP for them to do that. Now's the time to get an appeal in and I see you've done that, so well done, gather as much info as you can. The DWP don't usually turn-up to appeals, so it's pretty informal, but you'll need to prepare well. Every success.


 

thank you.  The medical evidence is typed, its because there are inaccuracies and what I feel is purposful misunderstanding in it.  If my life were as this report, I wouldn't be complaining.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> I will do when I get back, taking my ma to the hospital to be given a 24 hour heart monitor.
> 
> 
> 
> thank you. The medical evidence is typed, its because there are inaccuracies and what I feel is purposful misunderstanding in it. If my life were as this report, I wouldn't be complaining.


 

Been there, done that, unfortunately.
It's never fun to have to sit down with a wodge of print-out where whoever has entered the data appears to have been talking to a different, healthier parallel-world version of you, because each lie causes you to oscillate between outrage at the blatantness of the misrepresentation, and despair that this is someone "in power" that has done this to you, so "what chance have I got against them?".

Ultimately though, if their report contradicts your medical evidence and what you said during the "assessment", then it's incumbent on you to kick this back at them through appealing, *if* you're physically and emotionally able to bear doing so. I had issues with my DLA that took nearly 3 years without DLA to solve, including the DWP turning up at my appeal (very rare) and attempting to convince the tribunal that not only did my appeal not deserve reconsideration, but that they (the DWP) were considering prosecuting me for fraud. All the labour and tears to resolve that issue seemed insurmountable at the time, but I'm glad as fuck that I didn't let them steamroller me, as it made both Greebo and I angry enough that we have both helped others with similar problems whenever we can since then. That was nearly 15 years ago, and we're *still* angry!

Don't let them turn your emotions inward. We're none of us "scroungers", and as you say, if most of us were living with the degree of health their "reports" imply, we wouldn't need to claim social security payments to which we're *absolutely medically entitled* in the first place. Get angry at the fact that they've lied about you. Hone your anger into a spearpoint and then shove it into their throats. They started this war. You're merely defending yourself from people with a proven record for lying, bullying and financial deception.


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## panpete (Jun 27, 2013)

audiotech said:


> This is good panpete. I won't claim this as my own, nevertheless, '"cynical realists" are the most blind to what's going on and illusions are at the heart of real life. We need critique more than ever' and yours fits the bill. Develop it some more.


Hi Audiotech

How do I develop it more, do you mean write more? Thanks

Celt, good luck with your appeal. I am on a pension too. It pays my mortgage. Most people who move from contrib to income based ESA are not affected, but we are.
So, us who worked and left for no fault of our own are being penalised more than those who never worked.


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## existentialist (Jun 27, 2013)

I've decided that it would be a good idea to write a leaflet that could be given to people as they arrive at ATOS centres. I think it should be factual, friendly, and no more critical of ATOS/DWP than necessary. When I've written a first draft, I shall put it up here on Urban - on its own thread - and invite comments. 

This was inspired by the story of the two people ATOS called the police on for standing outside an assessment centre and giving information to people coming in. It might be useful to link up with claimant support groups, but the idea of a near-permanent presence outside lots of ATOS centres appeals to me.


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## audiotech (Jun 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Audiotech
> 
> How do I develop it more, do you mean write more? Thanks
> 
> ...


 
Think some more. "Never worked"? "Penalised"? How?


----------



## Celt (Jun 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Audiotech
> 
> How do I develop it more, do you mean write more? Thanks
> 
> ...


 

I think other people have worked but their jobs are no longer there because of the economic situation, and I know that I was lucky to work in local government who at that time made provision for those who became to ill to work,  I think all ill people should be supported, what I object to is them changing the rules, having said we will pay you this amount for the time you are ill, they have come to a situation where they can't.  I don't believe I am entitled to more because I was able to work for a time, poor sods who are never well enough to work, why should they be secondary to me who was able to for a time? Are they any less deserving?  I don't think so.  I think the system is designed to have people misjudge others,

I am going to gather my evidence, go through the medical evidence and have a go at appealing.





existentialist said:


> I've decided that it would be a good idea to write a leaflet that could be given to people as they arrive at ATOS centres. I think it should be factual, friendly, and no more critical of ATOS/DWP than necessary. When I've written a first draft, I shall put it up here on Urban - on its own thread - and invite comments.
> 
> This was inspired by the story of the two people ATOS called the police on for standing outside an assessment centre and giving information to people coming in. It might be useful to link up with claimant support groups, but the idea of a near-permanent presence outside lots of ATOS centres appeals to me.


 
I was thinking last night about all the things we have learnt about the process through this thread and others like it and I think it would be great if someone could put that together. Do it man.

Thanks ViolentPanda, I may be back to ask questions.


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## treelover (Jun 27, 2013)

Just read that universal credit will be paid one month in arrears with the new initial seven days without payment that will be 38 days without money, ffs..

congrats to that councillor and adviser in Liverpool, if only more were like that, got publicity too.


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## kittyP (Jun 27, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Been there, done that, unfortunately.
> It's never fun to have to sit down with a wodge of print-out where whoever has entered the data appears to have been talking to a different, healthier parallel-world version of you, because each lie causes you to oscillate between outrage at the blatantness of the misrepresentation, and despair that this is someone "in power" that has done this to you, so "what chance have I got against them?".
> 
> Ultimately though, if their report contradicts your medical evidence and what you said during the "assessment", then it's incumbent on you to kick this back at them through appealing, *if* you're physically and emotionally able to bear doing so. I had issues with my DLA that took nearly 3 years without DLA to solve, including the DWP turning up at my appeal (very rare) and attempting to convince the tribunal that not only did my appeal not deserve reconsideration, but that they (the DWP) were considering prosecuting me for fraud. All the labour and tears to resolve that issue seemed insurmountable at the time, but I'm glad as fuck that I didn't let them steamroller me, as it made both Greebo and I angry enough that we have both helped others with similar problems whenever we can since then. That was nearly 15 years ago, and we're *still* angry!
> ...


 

Just wanna say thank you VP. 
It's saddening that that happened to you but your vitriol is inspiring in these dark times  x


----------



## existentialist (Jun 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> So, us who worked and left for no fault of our own are being penalised more than those who never worked.


This kind of thing troubles me. The government has devoted a lot of effort to creating a divide between what they call the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor, and every time someone says something like the above, I feel we are stepping closer to the abyss.

It isn't as simple as who's worked and who hasn't, much as the government would love us to adopt such black-and-white thinking.

It's about need, not blame.


----------



## kittyP (Jun 27, 2013)

existentialist said:


> This kind of thing troubles me. The government has devoted a lot of effort to creating a divide between what they call the "deserving" and "undeserving" poor, and every time someone says something like the above, I feel we are stepping closer to the abyss.
> 
> It isn't as simple as who's worked and who hasn't, much as the government would love us to adopt such black-and-white thinking.
> 
> It's about need, not blame.


 

You are totally correct but I think there is something in what PP said because it is so hypocritical of the government. 
If they want to create an us and them society then this is a pretty stupid way to go about it. 
In fact, it might actually be a good thing in that, if some people who have always worked, are very anti benefits culture, suddenly find themselves without a job, suddenly realise how much the government is penalizing them, they might wake up to how it actually fucking is.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 27, 2013)

The draft leaflet.

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/a-leaflet-to-distribute-outside-atos-offices.312169/


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## panpete (Jun 28, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Think some more. "Never worked"? "Penalised"? How?


I worked and got pensioned off due to ill health. Income based ESA would be virtually non existant, so, why I have to survive on my pension of £500 a month, all inclusive, theres some (not all) claimants who never worked but get housing benefit and full income based ESA.
I feel penalised for having worked 16 yrs and for having a private home.


----------



## panpete (Jun 28, 2013)

Celt said:


> I think other people have worked but their jobs are no longer there because of the economic situation, and I know that I was lucky to work in local government who at that time made provision for those who became to ill to work, I think all ill people should be supported, what I object to is them changing the rules, having said we will pay you this amount for the time you are ill, they have come to a situation where they can't. I don't believe I am entitled to more because I was able to work for a time, poor sods who are never well enough to work, why should they be secondary to me who was able to for a time? Are they any less deserving? I don't think so. I think the system is designed to have people misjudge others,
> 
> I am going to gather my evidence, go through the medical evidence and have a go at appealing.
> 
> ...


I don't think people who have always been too ill to work are un-deserving, but I think it's unfair that I should lose out on most of my ESA and I think I am deserving, but not treated so.


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## audiotech (Jun 28, 2013)

panpete said:


> I worked and got pensioned off due to ill health. Income based ESA would be virtually non existant, so, why I have to survive on my pension of £500 a month, all inclusive, theres some (not all) claimants who never worked but get housing benefit and full income based ESA.
> I feel penalised for having worked 16 yrs and for having a private home.


Let's deconstruct your strawman argument. Everyone has to meet a strict criteria to be in receipt of any benefit, more so Employment and Support Allowance. Also, it's increasingly a means tested benefit system that takes the income and savings into account of everyone, most after a year. if they are still on benefits after this time, because it's clear that only the severely disabled, are likely to be in receipt of the Support Group component for any length of time and assessed as 'never being able to work'.

Furthermore, it's very unlikely that they will have any significant savings, having "never worked". Many will have none at all. Significant numbers I expect will be in debt, because of the costs involved with being severely disabled and needs not being met by any benefit at all and those benefits that do cover some costs, such as the Disability Living Allowance (DLA), being reduced, or cut altogether.

DLA is to be replaced with Personal Independent Payments (PIPs) and the Chancellor is expecting to make savings here, so more cuts and others again not meeting the increasingly strict criteria being set. Of course being severely disabled and having "never worked" they'll have no workplace pension to fall back on either. In fact, due to recent changes, with claimants now having to pay a proportion of their ESA on housing costs, if they have been assessed as "under-occupied" for example, as well as increasing numbers having to pay a proportion of council tax out of their benefit, they are more than likely to be worse off overall.

Lastly, someone having "never worked" it is highly unlikely they will have had enough money to take out a mortgage and will be probably in social housing, an adapted property perhaps? This leading to more costs for installation say, if no grants available, and upkeep and maintenance costs to take into account too. I believe the value of a house is not taken into account when means tested for benefits and there is no "under occupancy" assessment, nor reduction in benefit for anyone who owns their own home.

Oh, I see you take "speed", so I'm assuming you are not severely disabled and if you can afford to spend money on illegal drugs not "penalised" at all, well that's unless you're caught in possession of such drugs. Psychotic episode was it?


----------



## Celt (Jun 28, 2013)

I think this thread, which has a mass of useful information is in danger of becoming devisive.  I think the "I'm more deserving than that person," breaks us down into tiny subgroups turning on each other.  This thread is Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support, and I think we should maybe take other conversation elsewhere


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## existentialist (Jun 28, 2013)

Celt said:


> I think this thread, which has a mass of useful information is in danger of becoming devisive. I think the "I'm more deserving than that person," breaks us down into tiny subgroups turning on each other. This thread is Atos Medicals - Questions, Answers and Support, and I think we should maybe take other conversation elsewhere


 
It looks to me like the necessary corrective measures are already going on. I think it will carry on being a useful resource. But yes, bunfights are better taken elsewhere, if there are to be any.


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## cesare (Jun 28, 2013)

It's a long thread for newcomers to try and catch up on. Perhaps time to start a new one with the opening post containing an index to useful resources?


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## kittyP (Jun 28, 2013)

kittyP said:


> You are totally correct but I think there is something in what PP said because it is so hypocritical of the government.
> If they want to create an us and them society then this is a pretty stupid way to go about it.
> In fact, it might actually be a good thing in that, if some people who have always worked, are very anti benefits culture, suddenly find themselves without a job, suddenly realise how much the government is penalizing them, they might wake up to how it actually fucking is.


 

There may be some truth in this even within their own party. 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...s-could-backfire-warns-tory-ally-8677585.html


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## panpete (Jun 29, 2013)

Please may I ask a question about the form I just sent on 25th June?

I have a copy of the latest "benefitsandwork.com" pdf on how to fill, and submit a form.

In this booklet, they say:

_"For people filling in this questionnaire for someone else._
_If someone else is helping you to fill in the form but you are going to sign it yourself then we_
_would say that it is up to you whether this part is completed or not._
_However, the DWP seem often to be suspicious about evidence given by claimants_
_themselves, particularly where a mental health condition is involved. So, if you get help from_
_a social worker, housing worker, health professional or someone similar, it may actually be to_
_your advantage for them to complete this section."_

The CAB filled mine out and signed it, and I also signed it.
I filled out extra sheets, however, while I never changed the boxes the CAB ticked, I also wrote some additional info on the form.

Is this going to be a problem for me?

Thanks


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## cesare (Jun 29, 2013)

panpete said:


> Please may I ask a question about the form I just sent on 25th June?
> 
> I have a copy of the latest "benefitsandwork.com" pdf on how to fill, and submit a form.
> 
> ...


The signatures are for everything you submitted including the additional pages, so I don't think it'll be a problem or anything to worry about, Pete.


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## audiotech (Jun 29, 2013)

Hmm, asking dodgy questions, admitting drug taking on this thread, whilst filling in an official form. Are you for real?


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## panpete (Jun 29, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Hmm, asking dodgy questions, admitting drug taking on this thread, whilst filling in an official form. Are you for real?


Dodgy questions? what - please only post if you can actually offer me some help.
If you were only joking, then I will let you off.


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## panpete (Jun 29, 2013)

cesare said:


> The signatures are for everything you submitted including the additional pages, so I don't think it'll be a problem or anything to worry about, Pete.


Thank you


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 29, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Hmm, asking dodgy questions, admitting drug taking on this thread, whilst filling in an official form. Are you for real?


 
Yes, she's for real - She can be a bit of a clown though, which is why she's on the sick for MH reasons. Don't give her a hard time about it, eh?


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 29, 2013)

panpete said:


> Please may I ask a question about the form I just sent on 25th June?
> 
> I have a copy of the latest "benefitsandwork.com" pdf on how to fill, and submit a form.
> 
> ...


 
No, like cesare's already said, I can't see it being a problem either.


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## panpete (Jun 29, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yes, she's for real - She can be a bit of a clown though, which is why she's on the sick for MH reasons. Don't give her a hard time about it, eh?


Are you saying I can be a bit of a clown?
If so, surely you are referring to the impression I have given you, and that impression comes from MH symptoms, and with the greatest of respect, I find "a bit of a clown" very insulting.

Thank you.


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## Frances Lengel (Jun 29, 2013)

panpete said:


> Are you saying I can be a bit of a clown?
> If so, surely you are referring to the impression I have given you, and that impression comes from MH symptoms, and with the greatest of respect, I find "a bit of a clown" very insulting.
> 
> Thank you.


 
I was sticking up for you, sorry if it didn't come over that way. Audiotech was asking if you were for real & what I was trying to say was that yes, you are for real/genuine and if you come across as anything other then it's probably down to MH symptoms. "Bit of a clown" was a figure of speech - I can see how you would find it insulting though, sorry I should've expressed myself better. No harm meant.


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## audiotech (Jun 30, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yes, she's for real - She can be a bit of a clown though, which is why she's on the sick for MH reasons. Don't give her a hard time about it, eh?


Far from it, one of my close friends has been labelled with the term "schizophrenia" all her life and has been incarcerated under the Mental health Act. Some ignorant people judge her, others harass her for being who she is. She never has and wouldn't harm anyone.


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## Celt (Jun 30, 2013)

I have spent a lot of time this evening reading the Work and Benefits site, maybe too much time, I am boggle eyed - but it seems to me I am well out of time to appeal or ask them to look at the decision again, I didn't understand the difference of having made support group or WRAG -


----------



## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have spent a lot of time this evening reading the Work and Benefits site, maybe too much time, I am boggle eyed - but it seems to me I am well out of time to appeal or ask them to look at the decision again, I didn't understand the difference of having made support group or WRAG -


You get 28 days to appel I think but someone more in the know can confirm.
Support group = slightly more money and no conditions, they leave you alone.
WRAG - conditions apply and sanctions can be imposed if conditions not met. After one year the benefit is means tested.


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## kittyP (Jun 30, 2013)

panpete said:
			
		

> You get 28 days to appel I think but someone more in the know can confirm.
> Support group = slightly more money and no conditions, they leave you alone.
> WRAG - conditions apply and sanctions can be imposed if conditions not met. After one year the benefit is means tested.



Pp. I'm not having a go and I honestly know how hard it is. I sent my form off months ago and it's excruciating waiting but you can't change anything now. Unfortunately you just have to wait until you hear something and deal with the next step then. X


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## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Pp. I'm not having a go and I honestly know how hard it is. I sent my form off months ago and it's excruciating waiting but you can't change anything now. Unfortunately you just have to wait until you hear something and deal with the next step then. X


Hi Kitty

Sorry, I did not mean to come across as worrying in my above post, I was just telling Celt the rules.


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## Celt (Jun 30, 2013)

panpete said:


> You get 28 days to appel I think but someone more in the know can confirm.
> Support group = slightly more money and no conditions, they leave you alone.
> WRAG - conditions apply and sanctions can be imposed if conditions not met. After one year the benefit is means tested.


  and is support group non means tested?


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## Celt (Jun 30, 2013)

The guy in the benefits advice shop said that there was an absolute limit of 13 months months but I don't understand what that means. I was so traumatised by the whole process and was so relieved to have made ESA I didn't look at the papers.  Living takes all my time and energy.


----------



## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> and is support group non means tested?


I think so.


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## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> The guy in the benefits advice shop said that there was an absolute limit of 13 months months but I don't understand what that means. I was so traumatised by the whole process and was so relieved to have made ESA I didn't look at the papers. Living takes all my time and energy.



Can you go to the CAB?


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## Celt (Jun 30, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Kitty
> 
> Sorry, I did not mean to come across as worrying in my above post, I was just telling Celt the rules.


You are worrying about the form, whether or not the signatures were right, unfortunately this process is long and the available time in which to worry is sometimes months and months.


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## audiotech (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt, I was initially put in the WRAG, appealed and was placed in the Support Group. More stress, as I know only too well, but if you think the very strict descriptors apply in your case, or meet the "special circumstances" rule then do appeal.


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## audiotech (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> The guy in the benefits advice shop said that there was an absolute limit of 13 months months but I don't understand what that means. I was so traumatised by the whole process and was so relieved to have made ESA I didn't look at the papers. Living takes all my time and energy.


Income to contributions based (means tested). After 12 months you will more than likely be re-assessed by Atos. I was and found "fit for work" (I had two appeals running concurrently after this decision). Even before this Job Centre Plus will expect you to be in some work related activity. Getting a CV a ready, on a work programme, etc.


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## audiotech (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have spent a lot of time this evening reading the Work and Benefits site, maybe too much time, I am boggle eyed - but it seems to me I am well out of time to appeal or ask them to look at the decision again, I didn't understand the difference of having made support group or WRAG -


On points (It was 15 for the WRAG, not sure now). From what you are saying it appears that they've decided you have limited capacity for work, but will be expected to move into work at some time in the near future.


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## kittyP (Jun 30, 2013)

panpete said:
			
		

> Hi Kitty
> 
> Sorry, I did not mean to come across as worrying in my above post, I was just telling Celt the rules.



You don't need to apologise. 
Sorry I misunderstood


----------



## Celt (Jun 30, 2013)

audiotech said:


> On points (It was 15 for the WRAG, not sure now). From what you are saying it appears that they've decided you have limited capacity for work, but will be expected to move into work at some time in the near future.


 
so how many points do I need to get the move from WRAG to support group?  I was given no points on mental health problems.  I may be asking apparently stupid questions but its taking me a bit to get my head round it.  Also does anyone know, or can point me in the direction of anything that might indicate whether a late appeal, or request to review their decision will be allowed.  I feel like I have brainfog .


----------



## audiotech (Jun 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> so how many points do I need to get the move from WRAG to support group? I was given no points on mental health problems. I may be asking apparently stupid questions but its taking me a bit to get my head round it. Also does anyone know, or can point me in the direction of anything that might indicate whether a late appeal, or request to review their decision will be allowed. I feel like I have brainfog .


It's more about "satisfying the regulations" than points at an appeal stage Celt. Ask yourself this: 'Do the "descriptors" in the regulations apply in your case (some clearly do as you are in the WRAG), but it appears that the Decision Maker, who will have received a report from the Atos Assessor, does not think they are significant enough to be in the Support Group.

Does the "special circumstances" rule apply? Would there be any significant deterioration in your mental health that would put you at risk, or other people at risk if found "fit for work"? Would there be any significant deterioration in your mental health that would put you at risk, or other people at risk participating in group activities to make you work ready?

That is the nub of it. You will need a report/letter from either a consultant, your GP, psychiatrist stating this. A letter from all three, if you are in such a position, would certainly assist your case in satisfying the "special circumstances rule", along with other documentation, reports etc that you have.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2013)

audiotech said:


> will need a report/letter from either a consultant, your GP, psychiatrist stating this. A letter from all three, if you are in such a position, would certainly assist your case in satisfying the "special circumstances rule", along with other documentation, reports etc that you have.


Yes, in their usual sneaky cunt-arsed way, they've become a LOT more restrictive about who they'll accept letters from, too. They are essentially looking for "expert witness" standard evidence of disability, not a mere opinion from any practitioner.


----------



## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

I just read over the first part of what I put on the extra sheets.

In the physical aids bit, in bed, I have always slept with a big cushion below my lower legs to keep them elevated. Dunno why but not having this cushion has always made me uncomfortable.
Anyway, I wrote down that I have a cushion under my lower legs, but I forgot to say that I use this cushion in bed.
should I do anything?

Thanks


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2013)

panpete - you've sent the form off, and, frankly, there isn't anything you can do except wait.

So I suggest this:

keep a notepad somewhere into which you can write things you've remembered that you think might be relevant: write them in, and then mentally unload them, in the knowledge that you've got a note in case you need to remember it later;
use this as an exercise in being able to "let go" of things - do some learning around "radical acceptance", or explore using mindfulness techniques as ways of stopping the ruminating/going around in circles process.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 30, 2013)

Panpete, I think you need to try as much as possible to take a bit of a step back about this.  You seem to be obsessing about every word or phrase you have written.

You can't do anything about it any more, it has been sent off and you need to wait for the decision to come through.  Try and remember that cunty though ATOS are, it isn't 100% of people who come into contact with them who are denied money they should be.  Some people are successful in getting the correct financial support they need the first time round.  You may be one of those people. 

I don't think they're going to care whether you sleep with a cushion under your legs or not tbh.


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## panpete (Jun 30, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Yes, in their usual sneaky cunt-arsed way, they've become a LOT more restrictive about who they'll accept letters from, too. They are essentially looking for "expert witness" standard evidence of disability, not a mere opiniion from any practitioner.


That's worrying. My ex key worker said if I had not have been discharged from mental health services a lot more doors would be oeen to me.

Its hard not to worry cos I could end up with just my pension of five hundred quid a month to live on and that includes mortgage. In other words my quality of life will be very low, and I will hve to think about money all of the time.

I do have an appointment for an assessment with a self harm charity this week for an assessment. I wonder if they would do instead of a psychiatrist.

Also MIND and Alabare are doing more for me currently, than the MH services can. I can get evidence off them if needed. Don't worry I know I can only wait, it's just that I am scared stiff of being in a position where I am on £500 a month and have to rely on scrounging off friends etc.


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## Celt (Jul 1, 2013)

I can only echo that you need to take a step back from this pete, you will possibly be waiting some time before you are called for assesment, you need to make notes of things that occur to you but there is nothing you can do to help the process now. If you or I do end up with basic ESA meanstested, you will become eligble for means tested benefits, and will have to survive on the same as a lot off other people who for whatever reason don't have an occupational pension will. it is worrying but you won't be left without a home, its an odd little quirk o the system that a pension isn't counted as income, its the same quirk that used to allow police officers retire from the police, get jobs as planning enforement officers or similar and get salary plus pension.

Its possible that my unwillingness to face up to things has meant I am out of time for getting it reviewed/appealed, (I am finding out about that now), i know that I was medically retired because it wasn't anticipated I would be fit to work again.



I also think that the call I had (which I now know to have been from the decision maker) seemed quite decided before they spoke to me that I would get WRAG, and I think is calculated to reduce my benefit(and so the governments benefit bill), I had thought it was because of my existing MH problems and the backlash there had been with people like me killing themselves, but it has little or nothing to do with the likelhood of my being fit to return to work. I didn't pursue it at the time, I was so relieved to get ESA at all, at a difficult time in my life, my very dear friend lost her fight with breast cancer at the age of 49 around that time, I was just grateful to be alive, it may mean I have fucked my benefits, but I am still here, still breathing.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 1, 2013)

Bear in mind that the 'Decision Maker' is not a qualified, trained health professional in anyway, just a DWP bureaucrat and will more than likely not have reviewed your file. In my experience (they told me this) they go on the Atos, drop down, tick box assessment alone.


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## panpete (Jul 1, 2013)

I thought i would share this. Man gets in support group after two years, with ESA50 and no medical assessment, as he does not want to be assessed face-to-face.
http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/2013/...nal-atosdwp-voyage-a-must-read-thanks-rodney/


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## audiotech (Jul 1, 2013)

The comment of being "part of a target led organised benefit denial factory" is not that hard to fathom when you've been through their "revolving door" a few times.


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## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

I wish I'd seen that before I got my forms, but, alas, nowt I can do now.


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## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

Celt said:


> I can only echo that you need to take a step back from this pete, you will possibly be waiting some time before you are called for assesment, you need to make notes of things that occur to you but there is nothing you can do to help the process now. If you or I do end up with basic ESA meanstested, you will become eligble for means tested benefits, and will have to survive on the same as a lot off other people who for whatever reason don't have an occupational pension will. it is worrying but you won't be left without a home, its an odd little quirk o the system that a pension isn't counted as income, its the same quirk that used to allow police officers retire from the police, get jobs as planning enforement officers or similar and get salary plus pension.
> 
> Its possible that my unwillingness to face up to things has meant I am out of time for getting it reviewed/appealed, (I am finding out about that now), i know that I was medically retired because it wasn't anticipated I would be fit to work again.
> 
> ...


Hi Celt,

I did not know that pension would not be counted as income.
That is good news.
Turn2us and benefitsandwork and moneysavingexpert got it wrong when they said my pension would wipe out any means tested benefits.

You know what, at the moment I feel past worrying, and am starting to try to get 'ok' with the idea of no ESA, because if I can do that, then I am not at the mercy of the crooks that award benefits.
I can say "stuff you", I'll make my own money.

I had a bit of a revelation today. For some reason I have held this false belief that I am of lower worth, and therefore translated that as unable to make my own money, because I do not believe I have anything worth selling, as in talents etc etc
This belief is a false old one which came from my parents who are merely grown wounded children themselves.

I'm not saying I am fit for a workplace environment, because I just do not belong in that space, I am thinking out of the box and looking at what I have to offer outside of the workplace, so it can be me who goes along to the benefits people and say "I no longer need your money, I've got my own"

I can see why you were just grateful to get ESA at the time.
So, even if we both get WRAG, if our pensions are not counted as an income, then that takes a bit of pressure off to get in the support group, even though we both feel we deserve to be in that group.


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## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

existentialist said:


> panpete - you've sent the form off, and, frankly, there isn't anything you can do except wait.
> 
> So I suggest this:
> 
> ...


Hi, yes, see my post above where I feel past worrying, it's not worth giving myself a breakdown.


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## existentialist (Jul 2, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi, yes, see my post above where I feel past worrying, it's not worth giving myself a breakdown.


Good stuff.

This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.

I guess the trick is not to let them win...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.
> 
> I guess the trick is not to let them win...


 
It's unsurprising that the system "seems" to do so, given that one of the aims was to pretty much cut a swathe through mental health claims on the grounds that rather than people having mental health issues, they were actually very good actors, pretending to have mental health issues in order to defraud the government.


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## existentialist (Jul 2, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's unsurprising that the system "seems" to do so, given that one of the aims was to pretty much cut a swathe through mental health claims on the grounds that rather than people having mental health issues, they were actually very good actors, pretending to have mental health issues in order to defraud the government.


 
Yes, I was being a little (unnecessarily) charitable, there.

Actually, what boggles my mind is that the endless refining of the approach seems so transparently obviously designed to disadvantage, trap, and trip up claimants that it isn't common knowledge.

If you had asked me ten years ago how far a government could get away with this kind of cynical manipulation, and how far a population would be prepared to go in ignoring the government's behaviour, even colluding with it, I would not have believed that what is happening today could have happened. Perhaps that makes me naïve, but I'd have preferred "optimistic".

As it is, I am struggling with who to hate the most - a government that can so nakedly recruit the nastiest impulses of us all to pursue a kind of fat cats' war on the poor, or a population who seem not just able, but positively willing, to be led by the nose. It's pretty sickening.


----------



## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Edit: Well eventually had to ring the DWP again today and the person who answered my query has confirmed that I do NOT have to fill in the questionnaire that I received at the beginning of this month. Thanks Atos Healthcare, the DWP and whoever else was responsible for putting me through another period of hell.
> 
> Exhausted, over and out.


Phew, what a relief.

In answer to your question, yes, they do, do it delibetately.
They are hoping that people will say "Ah fuck, I'm just gonna live without benefits"

Glad that you do not have to fill out another form though.


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

Posted on facebook and to be continued:



> The ESA50 how important is it?





> Well I would say its the most important information that you can give, next to the medical, if not more so. What you put on your ESA50 will be used as evidence sometimes against you, in a tribunal, and by the DWP when reaching its decision. People fill in their forms without knowing how it's all worked out according to complex rules....It's how the claimant fills in the form which can make all the difference as to whether they will get support or not, some people will just give up at this first hurdle, others indicate they have no problem because they are misled by the questions; Claims are often disallowed because a Decision Makers will use the esa form against the claimant, ie if the claimant have told them they have no limitation in their own self assessment then quite often claimants with profound limitations are being found to have no limitation at all - The assessment process is not fit for purpose, and claimants simply do not realise how the questions in the form relate to the legal criteria which determines whether people get support. So before you fill in the form, read as much as you can, ie on here, or other sites or better still get help from an organisation specialising in welfare benefits. Ensure you "understand" the questions asked.
> 
> Assessment starts on the day of your appointment with the Health Care Professional reading the form you completed when you applied for ESA. Remember that EVERY single question you are asked is designed to justify ending your claim for ESA and passing you as “fit for work”. This a Contractual obligation between ATOS and DWP. The "assessment", is a chance for the DWP to take away your financial support. Be prepared and remember this at ALL times when dealing with anything to do with ESA.


Follow the link above for more.


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## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.
> 
> I guess the trick is not to let them win...


The trick for me is not to be so reliant on benefits.
Having grown up with bullies, I know a favourite strategy of  bully is to have you reliant on them, and as you described above, they ARE bullys, using typical bully tactics.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Yes, I was being a little (unnecessarily) charitable, there.
> 
> Actually, what boggles my mind is that the endless refining of the approach seems so transparently obviously designed to disadvantage, trap, and trip up claimants that it isn't common knowledge.


 
People don't know, and don't believe, because they don't want to.  The majority of people, living under a state, want to believe that the state has its best intentions toward them, and if the state conveniently facilitates that belief by initiating a rhetorical crusade against a minority, then how cool is that for the mass who don't want to face up to the cognitive dissonance inherent to what the state is *actually* doing?



> If you had asked me ten years ago how far a government could get away with this kind of cynical manipulation, and how far a population would be prepared to go in ignoring the government's behaviour, even colluding with it, I would not have believed that what is happening today could have happened. Perhaps that makes me naïve, but I'd have preferred "optimistic".


 
I would've, but only because I'd already experienced the Benefits Integrity Project by then, and was aware of where the legislators wanted to go with their ideas because I made sure to read the social policy coming out of the likes of DEMOS.



> As it is, I am struggling with who to hate the most - a government that can so nakedly recruit the nastiest impulses of us all to pursue a kind of fat cats' war on the poor, or a population who seem not just able, but positively willing, to be led by the nose. It's pretty sickening.


 
The way I see it, their different manifestations of the same over-arching problem - neoliberalism - so they're all equally deserving of a sharpened entrenching tool to the back of the neck.


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

DWP allowed to appeal:


> It may have taken almost a month and a half, but judges have agreed to let the Department for Work and Pensions appeal against the judgement that the work capability assessment discriminates against people with mental health problems.


source.

This, despite being denied permission to appeal on the first attempt, according to the Mental Health Resistance Network.


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## audiotech (Jul 2, 2013)

To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:

Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.


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## panpete (Jul 2, 2013)

audiotech said:


> To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:
> 
> Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.


Which is means tested so you most probs wont get as much, (if any) depending on income.


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## Celt (Jul 3, 2013)

audiotech said:


> To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:
> 
> Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.


 
OK, if that is the case in all claims that does mean my occupational pension would be counted as income.

But I believe from the Benefits Advice that if you make it to support group and stay in that catagory your claim stays the same, non means tested.  I don't now know if that is so or not.

I have decided that whichever of these is so, their medical evidence and decision document is so inaccurate I feel I am justified to be making an out of time review/appeal.

The call I had, which I now know to have been from the "decision maker", told me my money would stay the same and that despite my requesting that I be given time to think about the questions  she was asking as I was very anxious I was pressed to answer her then, when she said I had got ESA I was so relieved,  if I was told about the difference WRAG or support group made I did not take in.

I only got their written decision after I rang them some time after the decision (maybe 3 week or a month later)


I did not read their decision properly,  but having done so  it contained massive inaccuracies, which  they have made their decision on.

Panpete, you asked me about your pension and the truth is - I don't know, my pension was from local government, it is much less than yours, I don't know if it should have been considered for Inacapacity beneit.


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## Celt (Jul 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Celt,
> 
> I did not know that pension would not be counted as income.
> That is good news.
> ...


 
I think you need to check this with someone, my only knowledge is regarding my pension which is much less than the benefit amount and I understand I would get my pension with a top up to the benefit amount. It would also mean I was eligble to means tested beneits - council tax beneit amd housing benefit which would pay mortgage interest.

I can't be 100 per cent sure of this. but its what I understand.

Sorry folks I am more than exhausted, I had a panic attack about this this morning, its funny how this shit makes me appreciate my friends even more, my friend S has given me lots of cups of tea, followed by food and some escapist trash telly, I may be being fucked royally by the benefits people but I am cared for (emotionally) by my friends - and his dog, who has demanded I stroke him lots - quite therapeutic. 

_we may be lying in the gutter but some of us are staring at the stars (oscar wilde)_


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## panpete (Jul 3, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Good stuff.
> 
> This system seems calculated to cause the maximum distress to people with mental health problems. One of the things that offends me most about it is that, as much as I am trying in my work to help people develop a sense of agency and control in their lives, and feel like, no matter how low they've sunk, they have value, here we have an organisation and a system dedicated to making them feel as victimised, powerless and useless as it can.
> 
> I guess the trick is not to let them win...


The whole WCA was never about cutting money, and niether was bedroom tax, and other unfair levies on the poor.
It is, and was, all about reducing quality of life and causing as much fear as possible.

Atos and the DWP are unfair, and it's almost a lottery.
I have a new friend who is terminally ill, and has been declared fit for work, so has had to appeal and go through loads of stress.

There's loads I have forgot to put on the form, but in the end my CBT tools came into play and I had to let it go.

Que sera


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## panpete (Jul 3, 2013)

Celt said:


> I think you need to check this with someone, my only knowledge is regarding my pension which is much less than the benefit amount and I understand I would get my pension with a top up to the benefit amount. It would also mean I was eligble to means tested beneits - council tax beneit amd housing benefit which would pay mortgage interest.
> 
> I can't be 100 per cent sure of this. but its what I understand.
> 
> ...


Hi Celt

Sorry you had a panic attack this morning.
My CBT is helping me as I had a bit of a crisis on Monday.
Google "worry tree". i missed out loads on my claim, but there's nowt I can no now, so, with it being in the lap of the gods, I just sit back and wait.

Re: pensions. In the WRAG they would deduce the whole pension amount, but in the suport group, they either deduct the difference or just leave it.


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## tufty79 (Jul 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> .
> My CBT is helping me...... there's nowt I can no now, so, with it being in the lap of the gods, I just sit back and wait.


you don't know how pleased i am to see you type that, pete. keep using your toolkit - sounds like you've given it a good spray of wd40 and are putting it to good use.

good luck with everything. and same to celt x


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## tufty79 (Jul 3, 2013)

Celt said:


> _we may be lying in the gutter but some of us are staring at the stars (oscar wilde)_


this.


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## existentialist (Jul 3, 2013)

panpete said:


> The whole WCA was never about cutting money, and niether was bedroom tax, and other unfair levies on the poor.
> It is, and was, all about reducing quality of life and causing as much fear as possible.
> 
> Atos and the DWP are unfair, and it's almost a lottery.
> ...


 
It's _almost_ a lottery.

With the one major distinction that, in a lottery, _someone_ playing the game wins. That is not the intention with the DWP's strategy.

Sooner or later, some buildings are going to end up being burned down - it's pretty obvious that they're not in it for the popularity!


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## flipflop29 (Jul 3, 2013)

Hi,

I'm new here - I signed up partly to post about a petition that's trying to get the appalling WCA stopped (http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ng-sick-disabled-people.312405/#post-12369651) and I've been starting to read some of the posts on this thread.

However bad I know the WCA is, having been through it myself, seen friends go through it, and having read so many awful reports of people's experiences since starting trying to promote the petition, I'm still never prepared for how horrified I feel reading more. I'm feeling so sorry for everyone on here that's been chewed up and spat out by this vicious system, and because it's June and my own ESA (support group - I had to get a reconsideration from WRAG) is due to be reviewed at the end of July, I'm finding myself hyperventilating and anxious at the thought of going through it all again. I lost half a stone last time (dangerous, because I have gut problems and am already underweight), and I didn't even end up having to go through full appeal.

It's one of the most obviously failed policies I can think of - I almost can't believe it can carry on much longer in its current form, but both the government and the opposition still seem to be in denial as to how fundamentally flawed it is


----------



## geminisnake (Jul 3, 2013)

audiotech said:


> To clear up any misunderstandings on a previous post:
> 
> Contributions based Employment Support Allowance (ESA) is payable for a year, when that runs out you can claim income related ESA.


I still don't understand how I was put on this when I've not contributed for the last 10 yrs. I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!


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## equationgirl (Jul 3, 2013)

welcome flipflop29 hope you find help and advice here


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## flipflop29 (Jul 3, 2013)

Thanks equationgirl - I literally flipflop (!) between thinking I know how not to fall into the traps this time and that also I've got a medical report and supporting letter from a consultant that I couldn't get in time last time and then panicking that they won't pay attention to any of it and they'll just put me on whatever the feel like putting me on. I guess everyone feels like that though.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I still don't understand how I was put on this when I've not contributed for the last 10 yrs. I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!


 
I _think  _and don't take this as gospel, but I'm on contributions ESA for a year despite not having worked since 2004 because, prior to ESA coming in, I was on contributions related Incapacity. And, apparently, everyone who was on contribution related Incap before getting migrated to ESA enjoys a year of what's known as income protection, whereby you get a year on the contributions rate of ESA. I hope that makes sense coz reading it back, it look like gibberish. I _do_ know what I mean though, I'll try to explain it better if that's not comprehensible enough.


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## audiotech (Jul 4, 2013)

Please read and participate if you can and if you feel it relevant to your circumstances.

Also this: Fourth independent review of the Work Capability Assessment (WCA).



https://www.gov.uk/government/consu...-review-of-the-work-capability-assessment-wca


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## audiotech (Jul 4, 2013)

Celt said:


> OK, if that is the case in all claims that does mean my occupational pension would be counted as income.
> 
> But I believe from the Benefits Advice that if you make it to support group and stay in that catagory your claim stays the same, non means tested. I don't now know if that is so or not.


 

The former? I can't answer, simply because I don't know, not having an occupational pension.

The latter? This is the case up to this point in time.


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## yardbird (Jul 4, 2013)

Is an occupational pension income?
Err.. Yes.


----------



## panpete (Jul 4, 2013)

flipflop29 said:


> Hi,
> 
> I'm new here - I signed up partly to post about a petition that's trying to get the appalling WCA stopped (http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...ng-sick-disabled-people.312405/#post-12369651) and I've been starting to read some of the posts on this thread.
> 
> ...


Sorry you had to go through such agony, and hope that you get the result you want this time round


----------



## panpete (Jul 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I still don't understand how I was put on this when I've not contributed for the last 10 yrs. I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!


If you've been on IB contributions have been made for you, by the state, but my knowledge is limited so, hopefully others will know more.


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## Celt (Jul 4, 2013)

Have spent much of this morning on the phone to the mental health advocacy service, who are not sure if I fit the criteria of people they can help- it seems to be a theme in this, they suggested I contact the CAB, which I did and missed their walk in service for this week by half an hour,  rather than contact the DWP with a half arsed "I think things arn't right but I am not certain of what things those are, I am going to wait till I can see the CAB on monday, and will have prepared the what I think is wrong with the medical report by then.  Having trouble with pain, sciatica is painful, but I think there are a number o people on this thread who are similarly disabled.


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## geminisnake (Jul 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I may ask my personal adviser when I see them tomorrow. I'm so looking forward to this, not!


So the lady I saw said I should appeal to be put in the support group  I have a form to fill in and send off asap.


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## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So the lady I saw said I should appeal to be put in the support group  I have a form to fill in and send off asap.


 
I think you should, if you feel up to it.


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## geminisnake (Jul 4, 2013)

I think I kind of have to because she gave me the form, told me to appeal and didn't continue with the interview. The form is very small. I may have to type something up and just add it to the envelope. I will remember to put name address & nat ins no on it


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## Celt (Jul 5, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So the lady I saw said I should appeal to be put in the support group  I have a form to fill in and send off asap.


 interesting, and informative, I think if I don't get some clear plan on monday when I go to the cab I may go and see the lady in the job centre who I saw in November



geminisnake said:


> I think I kind of have to because she gave me the form, told me to appeal and didn't continue with the interview. The form is very small. I may have to type something up and just add it to the envelope. I will remember to put name address & nat ins no on it


 
is there a title or a number on the form she gave you?  Is it an abc123 or similar?


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## geminisnake (Jul 5, 2013)

Celt said:


> is there a title or a number on the form she gave you? Is it an abc123 or similar?


On the front it just says If you think our decision is wrong April 2013 but on the back page there is a tiny number  GL24 in the bottom left corner. I think it is just a generic appeal form tbh.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> On the front it just says If you think our decision is wrong April 2013 but on the back page there is a tiny number GL24 in the bottom left corner. I think it is just a generic appeal form tbh.


 
Yep, it is.


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## flipflop29 (Jul 5, 2013)

I think you're supposed to launch an appeal within 30 days of a decision, however, it might be different if the Job Centre have instigated it.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 5, 2013)

Celt said:


> I think you need to check this with someone, my only knowledge is regarding my pension which is much less than the benefit amount and I understand I would get my pension with a top up to the benefit amount. It would also mean I was eligble to means tested beneits - council tax beneit amd housing benefit which would pay mortgage interest.


 
just a thought on this -

housing benefit is available if you're renting; mortgage interest via income support is (in some circumstances) available if your income falls at or under the income support level. they are not the same thing, and (as things stand at present) you claim housing benefit via local councils (although you can put something that effectively says "I want to make a claim" via DWP) but it is usually quicker to contact council direct. Mortgage interest is handled via DWP.

Quite what the heck will happen when universal credit goes live is beyond me, and I'm not sure it's been properly thought through yet.

Housing benefit (HB) and council tax benefit (CTB) are not "all or nothing" -and are not restricted to people getting means tested benefits (and for that matter, they are not restricted to people getting other benefits - you can claim if you're working and on a low income.)

While you would get maximum HB / CTB if you're on a means tested benefit (or if your income is at the sane level), you can still get some HB / CTB if you're on a low income above that point, so it may be worth claiming even in your current circumstances.

you can in some circumstances claim 'backdated' benefit (i.e. from before you put your claim in) but it's not easy, and has got more difficult lately.)

may be worth a look at the calculator on turn2us (anonymous, and not linked to government or council.)

apologies if i'm stating the obvious here, but a lot of people do think they wouldn't be entitled to housing / council tax benefit when they would be...


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 5, 2013)

Good post, Puddy, except CTB is no more.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 5, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Good post, Puddy, except CTB is no more.


 
oops   @ me

yes, local council tax reduction schemes - although they (broadly) work in much the same way as CTB used to, but yes, anyone would have to check with their local council to see how the scheme works locally (there's more local discretion than there used to be)

but if in doubt, claim!


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 5, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> oops  @ me
> 
> yes, local council tax reduction schemes - although they (broadly) work in much the same way as CTB used to, but yes, anyone would have to check with their local council to see how the scheme works locally (there's more local discretion than there used to be)
> 
> *but if in doubt, claim!*


 
Undoubtedly. I wasn't trying to undermine your (otherwise decent) post


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 5, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Undoubtedly. I wasn't trying to undermine your (otherwise decent) post


 
no - quite right to point it out.  it's worth getting these things right.

although my local council's website still refers to "council tax benefit" most of the way through.   at them too.


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## yardbird (Jul 6, 2013)

ATOS + DWP = maths nonsense.
http://www.thefedonline.org.uk/disa...-shocking-number-of-atos-pip-assessment-sites
Just seen this. ffs!


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## Greebo (Jul 6, 2013)

yardbird said:


> <snip>http://www.thefedonline.org.uk/disa...-shocking-number-of-atos-pip-assessment-sites
> Just seen this. ffs!


 
ATOS in can't organise a piss up in a brewery shocker.


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## existentialist (Jul 6, 2013)

Greebo said:


> ATOS in can't organise a piss up in a brewery shocker.


 
I love the now-traditional blandly anodyne bollocks the DWP spouts in the statements they give at the end of every article like this - you can tell their heart isn't really in it, any more: and almost hear the sigh in their voice as they trot out the nth variation of Platitude #1.


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## yardbird (Jul 6, 2013)

Group 4 weren't able to supply the required number of security for the Olympics and finally got kicked out.
ATOS get away with all their shit


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## existentialist (Jul 6, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Group 4 weren't able to supply the required number of security for the Olympics and finally got kicked out.
> ATOS get away with all their shit


 
Hands in pockets somewhere, then.


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## audiotech (Jul 6, 2013)

Coventry Law Centre, with some useful resources to understand the basics.


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## yardbird (Jul 6, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Coventry Law Centre, with some useful resources to understand the basics.


 
Excellent.


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2013)

'Sick And Disabled To Be Forced To Address "Barriers To Work" Or Lose Benefits'.

Two year pilot scheme for those on ESA and in the 'Work Related Activity Group' (WRAG).


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## existentialist (Jul 8, 2013)

Today, I had a client who was called in for his ATOS assessment in Juiy last year. Predictably, he failed, and entered a nightmare of fear and trauma, which left him suicidal and despairing.

His tribunal hearing, seven months later in February overturned the decision.

I have worked hard with him - beyond, it has to be said, the call of duty - to get him back on his feet and start moving forward again.

Last week, despite being told by the tribunal he should not be recalled for a year, he received another summons from ATOS for a new assessment.

WHY is this kind of persecution considered acceptable in a civilised nation? I am a professional, and there is nothing I can do professionally to help him in this situation. All my good work is for naught, and all so that a gang of politicians can pander to themselves and those who vote for them that they are Getting Tough On The Workshy Scroungers.

God help my local MP, Simon Hart, should he come smarming his way around here at election time. He won't get short shrift - I intend to keep him hanging around a lot longer than that, while I explain to him at length what harm his morally bankrupt bunch of thieves and shysters have achieved.

I despair, I really do.


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## Quartz (Jul 8, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Today, I had a client who was called in for his ATOS assessment in Juiy last year... Last week, despite being told by the tribunal he should not be recalled for a year, he received another summons from ATOS for a new assessment


 
Grr...



> God help my local MP, Simon Hart, should he come smarming his way around here at election time.


 
Can you not write to him? With your client's permission, of course. Express your concern about the waste of taxpayers' money, not only in the assessment itself but also the appeals process, and how ATOS's actions are forcing people nearer poverty - I'm assuming your client paid for your work out of his own meagre funds - so forcing him that much nearer further state aid. He's a Tory, so you've got to stress the financial aspects.

Perhaps a more subtle approach might be to the National Audit Office, suggesting that ATOS might be misusing state funds? Generating unnecessary work for themselves etc...

I rather suspect this will be passed off as (creative) incompetence. It is, after all, a year since his last assessment, and _such an administrative error_ is so easy to make...


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Last week, despite being told by the tribunal he should not be recalled for a year, he received another summons from ATOS for a new assessment.


 
Phone the DWP, write to Atos and his MP and they'll more than likely back off.

Edit: Atos are unlikely to respond, the DWP will come out with 'some "error" in the system', blah, blah, blah, but his MP will have to respond.


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## Quartz (Jul 8, 2013)

From this National Audit Office document:




			
				NAO - bolding mine said:
			
		

> 6 According to the performance data provided, Atos Healthcare has not
> routinely met all the service standards specified in the contract. Schedule 5 of the
> contract lists 32 service levels, covering assessment processing times, the quality of
> work done and customer service. Our detailed review of four of these targets found that:
> ...


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## geminisnake (Jul 8, 2013)

flipflop29 said:


> I think you're supposed to launch an appeal within 30 days of a decision, however, it might be different if the Job Centre have instigated it.


 
How can you appeal against a wrong decision until you know what the difference between WRAG and support group is though? Despite sending me approx 10 pages of paper all the letter told me was I was now getting ESA and had been put in the WRAG (and I would get another letter). I didn't know wtf that was


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## existentialist (Jul 8, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Phone the DWP, write to Atos and his MP and they'll more than likely back off.
> 
> Edit: Atos are unlikely to respond, the DWP will come out with 'some "error" in the system', blah, blah, blah, but his MP will have to respond.


 
The problem is that it's well outside of my professional remit, and a breach of my client's confidentiality (but it's the professional boundary thing that's the main problem).

This isn't the only client this has happened to, and it is clear to me from everything I read that this is SOP for ATOS/DWP - so many stories of people winning appeals then getting hit with reassessments.

ETA: I've written to the MP twice on similar matters, and all I got the first time was some anodyne bollocks about "helping people off benefits".

The only thing I think that would cut the mustard now would be a well-publicised toe-to-toe, preferably on live media. I'd be up for it - Simon "gosh, it's dark up here Dave" Hart probably wouldn't.


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## Quartz (Jul 8, 2013)

existentialist said:


> The problem is that it's well outside of my professional remit, and a breach of my client's confidentiality (but it's the professional boundary thing that's the main problem).


 
How would getting your client's permission affect this?


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## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2013)

existentialist ViolentPanda has said before now that the DWP do seem to take things out on claimants if there's a successful appeal e.g. recalling claimants for assessment even when the tribunal says there's no need for 12-24 months etc.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2013)

Quartz said:


> How would getting your client's permission affect this?


Boundaries. I'm a counsellor, not a welfare rights advisor. A line has to be drawn.


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## cesare (Jul 9, 2013)

We involved Diane Abbott, and tbf, she did write to the DWP. The DWP responded to her but didn't budge. They just justified their decision.  In terms of expectations - the reality is that the DWP treat the involvement of MPs as a customer complaint and don't get particularly concerned. They certainly don't change their decision (albeit I suppose there will be a few exceptions here and there). What I think it might do - if enough people were to routinely copy their MPs on all correspondence - is to get them snowed under with the sheer volume of people experiencing difficulties and stress, so that they start to get a handle on what's going on and therefore the implications for the next elections.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2013)

cesare said:


> We involved Diane Abbott, and tbf, she did write to the DWP. The DWP responded to her but didn't budge. They just justified their decision.  In terms of expectations - the reality is that the DWP treat the involvement of MPs as a customer complaint and don't get particularly concerned. They certainly don't change their decision (albeit I suppose there will be a few exceptions here and there). What I think it might do - if enough people were to routinely copy their MPs on all correspondence - is to get them snowed under with the sheer volume of people experiencing difficulties and stress, so that they start to get a handle on what's going on and therefore the implications for the next elections.


I like this idea.


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## geminisnake (Jul 9, 2013)

cesare said:


> so that they start to get a handle on what's going on and therefore the implications for the next elections.


Wouldn't work for me, being in Scotland


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## cesare (Jul 9, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Wouldn't work for me, being in Scotland


Are you in the Falkirk area?


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## audiotech (Jul 9, 2013)

As stated before. I contacted the Human Rights Commission and they advised "reasonable adjustment" could be expected in my case, contact Atos and return the ESA50, not filled in, with a covering letter explaining the tribunal decision. I did write to Atos, with more evidence on my condition. They did not respond. I spoke to the DWP, who said they would check with the Benefits Agency. I requested they inform me in writing of the decision when they had. They didn't. I also wrote to my MP who passed on my letter to Lord Frued. Then, just four days before the dead-line set for returning the completed ESA50 I received a phone call from the DWP apologising, stating there had been an "error" made. I should not have received the ESA50 and therefore should ignore it. It became clear that on a legal footing (going against the tribunal decision) they would lose if it went to appeal, ombudsman etc.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2013)

Anyone seen the latest (courtesy _Benefits and Work _website)?





> ESA claimants are to be forced to have regular appointments with DWP doctors or other health professionals, possibly employed by Atos or Capita, not to assess them for benefits but to get advice on how to improve their health. The appointments will be mandatory and can be as long and as frequent as is considered necessary in order to get claimants back into work. Pilots of this and two other schemes will begin in November. More details in ESA news below.


 




So are they now saying your own GPs/Consultants are incompetent?


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## audiotech (Jul 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone seen the latest...


 
Yes, already posted on this very thread.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Yes, already posted on this very thread.


 
Too much of a headache to bother looking


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## toggle (Jul 10, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> existentialist ViolentPanda has said before now that the DWP do seem to take things out on claimants if there's a successful appeal e.g. recalling claimants for assessment even when the tribunal says there's no need for 12-24 months etc.


 
at Bakunin's tribunal the possibility of a swift recall was mentioned. i believe there was somewhat of a warning inherent in the way it was said, as well as something somewhat beyond irritation


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## WouldBe (Jul 10, 2013)

I've fucked up big time. 

I received a letter around 20th June about my DLA tribunal date. I misread the date as being 12th Aug. Had a phone call from my previous advisors on Monday asking me to come in prior to my tribunal * this Friday*  

Had an emergency appointment with my solicitor yesterday. Despite him writing to tribunal service, back in March, to say he was taking over as advisor and requesting a move of the tribunal to Nottingham the tribunal service hasn't been in touch with him and the tribunal is arranged for my home town. 

Waiting to hear wether tribunal will be postponed or wether I have to turn up only for it to be adjourned or wether it will go ahead regardless.


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## flipflop29 (Jul 10, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> How can you appeal against a wrong decision until you know what the difference between WRAG and support group is though? Despite sending me approx 10 pages of paper all the letter told me was I was now getting ESA and had been put in the WRAG (and I would get another letter). I didn't know wtf that was


 

It's a bloody good point. There are grounds for appealing after the 30 day limit, I'd guess that might be one of them.


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## Libertad (Jul 10, 2013)

Fuck fuck fuck. New ESA50 arrived today. I've got nine weeks of chemo. left to do and I really don't fucking need this. One of the major factors in the success of my treatment is stress levels due to the production of cortisone. Fuck em.

Is there any way under "reasonable adjustment" that I can tell ATOS to shove their fucking form? Alternatively I'll just have to copy in exactly what I submitted in my last form.

Incidentally the new ESA50 01/13 asks for accompanying medical documents which they didn't use to. I have all this information but it'll take me a couple of weeks to do it and I'm really not fucking up for it at all. (Poor me)

Oh yeah and there may be something else wrong with my colon or gallbladder or pancreas which is undiagnosed, I'm in fucking agony every day. I had a contrast CT scan two weeks ago and still no results, my specialist is off on leave until the 17th July.

Sorry, needed to get that out.


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## geminisnake (Jul 10, 2013)

cesare said:


> Are you in the Falkirk area?


 
I'd rather be homeless  Nah, NE.


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## geminisnake (Jul 10, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Anyone seen the latest (courtesy _Benefits and Work _website)?
> 
> So are they now saying your own GPs/Consultants are incompetent?


 
I saw that on FB in one of the anti BT groups. How do they intend to fix my brain injury?? Medical science can't do it so I don't see how they can 

Libertad, I'd go with copying the last one and adding any new info but (((you))) They really are a bunch of CNUTS


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## Libertad (Jul 10, 2013)

Seeing as they know that I'm still on chemo. and that my health is worse now than when I filled in my last form, is there any way that I can tell them to shove it?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 10, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I saw that on FB in one of the anti BT groups. How do they intend to fix my brain injury?? Medical science can't do it so I don't see how they can
> 
> Libertad, I'd go with copying the last one and adding any new info but (((you))) They really are a bunch of CNUTS


 
I know.  Maybe they'll teach you skills to help you remember.  Friend's consultant suggested mnemonics, which is all very well, assuming you can remember the words in the first place


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## 8115 (Jul 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'Sick And Disabled To Be Forced To Address "Barriers To Work" Or Lose Benefits'.
> 
> Two year pilot scheme for those on ESA and in the 'Work Related Activity Group' (WRAG).


 


> People on sickness benefits will be required to have regular meetings with doctors, occupational health nurses and therapists to help them address their barriers to work


 
I'm sure there used to be another organisation where doctors and nurses saw patients....


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## audiotech (Jul 11, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Seeing as they know that I'm still on chemo. and that my health is worse now than when I filled in my last form, is there any way that I can tell them to shove it?


Sorry to hear that Libertad and yes, get on to the DWP, letter to Atos and your MP if you can summon the strength, or an advocate on your behalf. I know it's not much and the probability of a: 'couldn't give a fuck' is uppermost in the minds of a fair few of these appointed, lead bureaucrats, doing this as part of their job spec (I whiffed a sense of that in the conversation I had with the recent nerk who telephoned), but nonetheless found it worth it just to hear another sniffling piece of shit having to apologise.


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## WouldBe (Jul 11, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Fuck fuck fuck. New ESA50 arrived today. I've got nine weeks of chemo. left to do and I really don't fucking need this.


I thought chemo was one of those special circumstances that put you straight on ESA (support group?) that didn't need a medical so don't know why you would have to fill the form in other than the first section.[/quote]


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I thought chemo was one of those special circumstances that put you straight on ESA (support group?) that didn't need a medical so don't know why you would have to fill the form in other than the first section.


 
I think it depends whether the chemo is IV or oral.

'Cos oral chemo is nowhere near as toxic as IV chemo, as far as the DWP fucksticks are concerned.


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## Libertad (Jul 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I thought chemo was one of those special circumstances that put you straight on ESA (support group?) that didn't need a medical so don't know why you would have to fill the form in other than the first section.


 


ViolentPanda said:


> I think it depends whether the chemo is IV or oral.
> 
> 'Cos oral chemo is nowhere near as toxic as IV chemo, as far as the DWP fucksticks are concerned.


 
I inject at home and because it's not cancer that I'm battling, yet, but a viral blood disorder then my chemo. doesn't count.
The fact that I was infected by the NHS in the first place and that they should recognise a moral duty of care to me doesn't register either.

It's the stress of the whole thing and the increase in cortisone levels that it causes. The more stress that I am under the less likely it is that treatment will work and the less likely I am to clear this virus.
Thanks DWP.


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## equationgirl (Jul 11, 2013)

Oh {{{Libertad}}} this is the last thing you need 

Do you have anyone who can advocate for you?


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## Celt (Jul 11, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Seeing as they know that I'm still on chemo. and that my health is worse now than when I filled in my last form, is there any way that I can tell them to shove it?


 


Libertad said:


> I inject at home and because it's not cancer that I'm battling, yet, but a viral blood disorder then my chemo. doesn't count.
> The fact that I was infected by the NHS in the first place and that they should recognise a moral duty of care to me doesn't register either.
> 
> It's the stress of the whole thing and the increase in cortisone levels that it causes. The more stress that I am under the less likely it is that treatment will work and the less likely I am to clear this virus.
> Thanks DWP.


 


your MP should know about this, it is utterly deplorable


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## Libertad (Jul 11, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Oh {{{Libertad}}} this is the last thing you need
> 
> Do you have anyone who can advocate for you?


 
There isn't anyone left in Cornwall that I know of, CAB has been decimated.

Thanks for your support though Urbs.


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## WouldBe (Jul 12, 2013)

Had a phone call from my solicitor yesterday to say my DLA tribunal has been postponed and will (eventually) be heard in Nottingham so it's easier for my solicitor to get to. 

Bit of a shame as it's supposed to be the hottest day of the year today and heat makes my condition worse.


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## Greebo (Jul 12, 2013)

WouldBe   Well, with any luck you'll be visibly in a pretty bad way come the day of the tribunal.  Good luck on that day, when it comes.

FWIW when VP turned up to his DLA appeal (several years ago now, thank goodness) and the DWP woman was there to argue that he shouldn't have got a penny, she showed one glimmer of human decency.  In spite of her harping on about (unnamed) discrepancies in the information, she held the heavy fire door open as he struggled out of the room and muttered "I'm sorry".


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## culder (Jul 15, 2013)

(((Everyone)))

I'm still finding it difficult to communicate regularly, here or anywhere else, so as usual I'm out-of-date with what everyone is going through.

I've had a recent problem I'd like to talk about but it isn't ATOS-related, it's more about mental health. I know there are probably other threads for it, but this is the thread that I know and feel comfortable with. It's mainly about the fact that I was supposed to go to hospital today for surgery, but I had to cancel it because I can't get transport. Would anyone mind if I talk about it here?


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## existentialist (Jul 15, 2013)

culder said:


> (((Everyone)))
> 
> I'm still finding it difficult to communicate regularly, here or anywhere else, so as usual I'm out-of-date with what everyone is going through.
> 
> I've had a recent problem I'd like to talk about but it isn't ATOS-related, it's more about mental health. I know there are probably other threads for it, but this is the thread that I know and feel comfortable with. It's mainly about the fact that I was supposed to go to hospital today for surgery, but I had to cancel it because I can't get transport. Would anyone mind if I talk about it here?


 
To be honest, you'll get a much better hearing over on the long-running specialist mental health thread, which you can find at http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/mental-health-thread-anyone.304912/

This thread really is specifically for ATOS stuff.

That's my advice, not an order, btw.

And I imagine you will find yourself feeling quite at home on the mental health thread pretty quickly - they're a friendly enough bunch, just like here!


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## culder (Jul 15, 2013)

Thanks, I'll have a look there. I just wanted to talk about it to people who already know my situation, which a few people here do. I'm not after an answer to a question, I just want to point out a problem regarding attitudes to mental health. But you're probably right - the other thread would probably be more appropriate. I'm just really pissed off about mental health not being a good enough reason to qualify for patient transport. Unless it's dementia, apparently.


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 15, 2013)

culder said:


> Thanks, I'll have a look there. I just wanted to talk about it to people who already know my situation, which a few people here do. I'm not after an answer to a question, I just want to point out a problem regarding attitudes to mental health. But you're probably right - the other thread would probably be more appropriate. I'm just really pissed off about mental health not being a good enough reason to qualify for patient transport. Unless it's dementia, apparently.


 
Talk where you want chief, here or there.


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## Greebo (Jul 15, 2013)

culder said:


> <snip>I'm just really pissed off about mental health not being a good enough reason to qualify for patient transport. Unless it's dementia, apparently.


 
FWIW VP has has similar difficulty getting patient transport.  In his case it's because this area's PCT requires a doctor's letter beforehand, and if he goes and gets that from his GP (carers aren't allowed to request it, it has to be done by the patient), he ends up too crashed to be able to even walk as far as where the ambulance would park.  Just as well he gets high mobility DLA and uses it to pay for minicabs, because he often can't walk as far as the nearest bus stop either.


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## WouldBe (Jul 15, 2013)

Greebo said:


> WouldBe Well, with any luck you'll be visibly in a pretty bad way come the day of the tribunal. Good luck on that day, when it comes.


 
I'll make sure I'm visibly in a bad way come the day. I'll be stopping the meds before hand, trying to "turn off" the systems I've put in place to cope and will be standing up very quick to trigger a postural hypotension attack.


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## geminisnake (Jul 15, 2013)

It's totally crap you feel you have to do that though  (((WouldBe)))


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 15, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> It's totally crap you feel you have to do that though  (((WouldBe)))


 
Init? You've got to play the system just to get what you're rightfully entitled to. It's fuckin wrong.


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## Libertad (Jul 15, 2013)

More fuckwittery.

I've realised that there's no way that I'm going to be able to return this ESA50 in time, I'm going to need more time to provide the medical information for a start. Not to worry though because in the covering letter from ATOS it states:



> If you will be unable to fill in the questionnaire by 8th August 2013, please contact the Jobcentre Plus office that deals with your claim.


 
So I rang them this morning. No, I'll have to ring ATOS, here's a number. The number isn't ATOS but another DWP number. They can't give me an extension to return my form because a "Decision Maker" needs to do that. To be able to do that they would need a completed ESA50.

JESUS FUCKING CHRIST

Eventually I was given a number to ring ATOS "Customer Services" 0113 230 9175 I'll be fucked if I'm ringing them.


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## audiotech (Jul 15, 2013)

I was watching Freud and IDS and a couple of those involved in the IT surrounding all this and Universal Credit in front of a Select Committee explaining themselves. From what I could ascertain above the jargon is that instead of getting everything in place and then pushing a button to run the thing, they've decided instead to develop systems on the hoof, as they go along, testing small pilots here and there, bringing in numbers (actual claimants) of tens, then hundreds, then thousands and then larger numbers. Initially less complex cases, but then to test more "vulnerable groups", who in their words are "more complex", but get this, and 'then to see what the "reaction" will be, from those delivering the system and those in receipt?'

No wonder we have this chaos where no one seems to know wtf is going on half the time. There's more. Running alongside all of this is a system to "counter threats" and HM Revenue and Customs bringing on board it's network to "mesh together". Then on top, an ideological, "cultural shift" is being made at the point of delivery. In favour of business you'll not be surprised to hear. There appears to be number of "screens" presently on the "front line", lots of cutting and pasting going on and bits of paper lying around with NI numbers, names and other details waiting to be inputted. Sounds like a complete mess just now and principally claimants are being treated as guinea pigs, with the likelihood, as many are already experiencing, of increasing foul-ups in the system, leading to more anxiety and stress. An impact that is not conducive to "vulnerable groups" in recovery.


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## Celt (Jul 16, 2013)

Hiya thread,  been reading the thread, whilst getting myself together and a letter written to the DWP asking them to look at their decision again. I have written it today and sent it to my sister to edit, having spent much of last week trying to get some help from various agencies, was patronised by some female in the CAB, who referred to me as "you people"  need to understand...", _we people referring _to those of us who don't keep on top of incoming mail, she told me I was "an intellegent woman" and could do it myself, I didn't realise you had to prove yourself to be thick to use the CAB  anyway sod her, however I am remembering and noting these and am going to go back to these when I have sorted out this WRAG/Support Group business.  I am on the waiting list to see the mental health advocate, but have decided to put my letter together and start the ball rolling, partly because I cannot wake up each day with the fear in the pit of my stomache,

Culder - talk wherever you want, I don't know your backstory but I am interested to hear it if you feel able to tell us what has happened?  I do think that maybe it makes searching the thread difficult for those with immediate ATOS issues, but I'm not big on the rules being the rules. If you feel up to talking about it I would be really interested, pm me if you want, I have recently taken on a role with a mental health charity and I am really interested to know what problems people have in accessing health care.

Libertad - I'm really sorry you are being put through these hoops,  I don't know where you live, but I still think your MP should know what you are being put through.


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## geminisnake (Jul 16, 2013)

I would let the manager of the CAB know about that lady Celt. That's bang out of order imo!


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## toggle (Jul 16, 2013)

i suppose their attitude depends on who you get. but the CAb, who know i'm working on a masters degree, had no trouble with the idea of helping us sort our mess out.


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## culder (Jul 16, 2013)

Thanks for the encouragement, everyone. *Libertad* - that's shit! *Celt* - thanks for the support.

I typed my post in a word.doc first so that I could edit it and keep it as short as possible, but it still goes on a bit, sorry. *Greebo* - VP's situation is worse than mine, by the sound of it, but here goes -


I’ve been struggling with anxiety and depression for several years, and two of the problems relating to that are –

1)      Travelling on public transport when I need to arrive at a particular time – this becomes even worse when I’m going somewhere I’ve never been before;
2)      Speaking to strangers on the phone, especially about something important.

Yesterday I was supposed to go to hospital for surgery. Not life-or-death stuff – it’s a lump on my jaw which is benign, but they wanted to remove it for preventative reasons. Unfortunately the hospital I had to go to is in a town I’ve never been to before, and I had to be there by 11am. It involves three bus journeys, and when I checked the details online it turned out to be quite complicated. I CANNOT do this on my own, and there is no-one who can go with me. I would end up sitting on a pavement in a strange town, crying.
So last week I tried to find out about getting patient transport. It went like this -

*Phone number 1* – the number on the hospital letter. They asked a few questions and decided that I _was_ eligible for the transport on mental health grounds, but they couldn’t organise it because I don’t live in their area. They gave me another number to phone.

*Phone number 2* – they couldn’t help, and gave me a different number.

*Phone number 3* – they asked the same questions as before, but this time said I was _not_ eligible for the transport.  Apparently my mental health problems were not ‘severe’. When I asked what was meant by ‘severe’, I was told ‘dementia’. By this point I was extremely distressed, but all I got was “there’s nothing I can do”.

My Mum decided to ring someone to find out what else I could do. (I’m 55, by the way, I’m not a kid, so this in itself makes me feel useless). She gave me a number she was given, which I called the next day –

*Phone number 4* – they asked the same questions, said I _was_ eligible for patient transport, but told me someone else had to deal with it. This time they passed my details on so that I didn’t have to make the call myself.

*Phone number 5* – they phoned me, asked the same questions, said I _was _eligible for the transport, but I would have to phone someone else –* phone number 2*.

*Phone number 2 again* – surprise! They couldn’t help, I would have to call *phone number 3*.

At this point I gave up. I made one more call, to the hospital, to cancel my surgery.

This doesn’t really convey the stress and anxiety that was caused by all these phone calls – you’ll just have to take my word for that. This isn’t about excuses to avoid surgery - I am _not_ afraid of that, I’m not even afraid of the dentist. I had a root canal a while back and it didn’t bother me in the least. This is purely about the anxiety involved in a complicated journey to a place I’ve never been to before, not to mention feeling like a ‘phone football’, despite telling each person that I have anxiety problems when using the phone.

In a way, maybe it _is_ an ATOS-related issue. I know I’ll have to go through another assessment sooner or later, and this is going straight onto my next form as an example of my anxiety problems. Whether that’ll make a blind bit of difference to the so-called ‘medical professional’ – well, I’m not putting any money on it.


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## panpete (Jul 16, 2013)

just popped in to say good luck everyone.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 16, 2013)

(((culder))) it's not a competition, IMHO your struggle to get to places is every bit as bad as VP's but in a different way.

Mentioning the cancelled surgery in your next claim (or using it as extra evidence, come the appeal) might just tip things in your favour.  FWIW one of the things which VP mentioned last time was that he'd had to miss the wedding of a very close relative because he just wasn't well enough to get there and back in a day.


----------



## culder (Jul 16, 2013)

Thanks, Greebo. Sometimes it helps just to talk to people about things like this.


----------



## culder (Jul 16, 2013)

Ooer! Just found out that the hospital I was supposed to go to is on the list of those being investigated...! Cloud, silver lining, and all that.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 17, 2013)

Hi, I’m new here, and have been following this thread for a long time now, much useful advice here, so thanks to all who post.  I’ve just had a new ESA50 land on my doormat.  I was migrated from IB to ESA in March, and was told my review period would be six months, and to expect to hear from them mid Septmember, so was thinking this must be some mistake to be contacted two months early.  But I’ve looked into this on Benefits and Work, and it seems this is standard, cos they aim to get the assessment including medical done in time for when your review is due.  So, with a six month ‘award’ you’re subject to the whole process again after four months, with a three month ‘award’ it would only be one month!  This is utter harassment, aimed at grinding you down in the hope you will give up and go away.

In March I was put in the Support Group.  I really expected to be put in WRAG.  My condition is of the mental health variety.  I only got six points from the ESA50, but it turns out I got into the SG on exceptional circumstances because being found fit for work would have a detrimental affect on my condition.  When I requested the report from my medical there were many inaccuracies, with the opposite of what I had actually said in the medical, or on the form, being recorded.  (Gonna request the medical is recorded next time).  I’d used all the advice from B&W to fill in the form, and was surprised I only scored points on the descriptor about being in social situations.  Nothing for the other descriptors.  Gonna have to do it better next time.

This new form has come at a bad time.  School holidays just about to start, and I’ve also got a preschooler at home.  It’s hard to do this stuff with the kids around.  Also, I’m worried about getting supporting evidence, as they were very slow providing letters last time, and I’m going away for a week when term ends.  Plus my psychiatrist is making noises about discharging me because the NHS can’t offer the treatment I need (says I have to go private to get the treatment he thinks would be most suitable), and I lost my (useless) CPN recently when I asked if I could see someone different.

This whole process is pernicious.  I feel like ringing the DWP and saying are you trying to make me iller with this constant pressure of continual reassement?  The migration from IB to ESA lasted from October to March, and I expect this one to last the same.  It’s basically only four months in the year from October to October that I won’t have had this hanging over me.  I know it’s the same for everyone.  It affects me badly, worst I’ve been in recent years, whilst this was going on over the winter.  It really is all shite.

Thanks to the people on here who say we have to fight the bastard system.  Helps me when I feel like saying ‘ok, you’ve won, I’m out’.

Sorry if I’ve rambled, I haven’t really got a specific question at the moment.  And if I can help anyone else going through this I hope I’ll be able to do so.


----------



## panpete (Jul 17, 2013)

Really sorry to hear that chainsaw.
I mucked up my form, and sent it off, ah feck em.
Who wants to rely on a benefit that is begrudged anyway.
I wish you the best.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 17, 2013)

panpete said:


> Really sorry to hear that chainsaw.
> I mucked up my form, and sent it off, ah feck em.
> Who wants to rely on a benefit that is begrudged anyway.
> I wish you the best.


 
You did not get your form wrong!!


----------



## existentialist (Jul 17, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You did not get your form wrong!!


Pre-emptive pessimism?


----------



## geminisnake (Jul 17, 2013)

culder said:


> At this point I gave up. I made one more call, to the hospital, to cancel my surgery.
> 
> This doesn’t really convey the stress and anxiety that was caused by all these phone calls – you’ll just have to take my word for that. This is purely about the anxiety involved in a complicated journey to a place I’ve never been to before, not to mention feeling like a ‘phone football’, despite telling each person that I have anxiety problems when using the phone.


 
 Bloody well done on managing all those calls without going postal!! I try to deal with as much as I can online these days so I don't have to use the phone. I ended up swearing at a voice recognition thing the other day trying to get through to my insurance company. Fortunately the swearing got me straight through to a person!!
I can very much empathise with how you feel about the travelling because I get something similar(feel sick, stomach in knots, chest tightening, etc) even when I'm going somewhere I know!! Somewhere I don't know and I'm mega  
About the only time I am early for anything is the train down to London because I don't trust public transport, the roads, everything between me and the train. Google map is probably the best thing on the web to me. If I have to go somewhere new I study it several times for a few days before the journey and I do street view too so I can look for shops or other landmarks so I 'know' where I am going.

I hope your appt can be rearranged with suitable transport put in place


----------



## audiotech (Jul 17, 2013)

Black Triangle have updated their site, on two pieces of the ESA regulations, with supporting letters for those appealing. See here.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 18, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> It's totally crap you feel you have to do that though  (((WouldBe)))


True but what with memory loss, confusion and getting words mixed up then sometimes "actions speak louder than words" 

And seeing the look of shock on their faces when some of these thing happen cheers me up.


----------



## panpete (Jul 18, 2013)

If Atos contact me tomorrow and arrange a medical this month, I would not be worried, in fact, I would be glad because I would still get paid if I had to appeal, whereas if they didn't contact me till Sept or October, I would not get paid.

A friend is still awaiting contact from Atos after submitting her ESA50 in either March or April, I forget which.

The cynical side of me wonders if Atos are deliberately delaying contacting people post ESA50, until after that date where appeal rules change, given that they get paid for every person they get off benefits, and to wait would mean possibly, more people being put off appealing.
Dunno if Atos still get paid once an appeal is launched.

That's the only gain I can think they would make. Maybe I am just being cynical, but the rule makers must also be cynical to set deliberate traps and loads of poverty-holes to fall down.


----------



## toggle (Jul 18, 2013)

panpete said:


> If Atos contact me tomorrow and arrange a medical this month, I would not be worried, in fact, I would be glad because I would still get paid if I had to appeal, whereas if they didn't contact me till Sept or October, I would not get paid.
> 
> A friend is still awaiting contact from Atos after submitting her ESA50 in either March or April, I forget which.
> 
> ...


 
you assume intentional malice. the simpler answer is their sheer incompetence.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 18, 2013)

> GPs in south east Wales have been told to stop writing letters for patients appealing against decisions to stop benefit payments because it is an "abuse of resources".


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23353623


----------



## geminisnake (Jul 18, 2013)

panpete It took them about 2 months to get back to me. I'm in Scotland so there is less people for them to deal with iyswim. Then it was more than another month before my appt for the personal adviser.  My appeal went in nearly 2 months after the decision date, purely down to their incompetence.
I would imagine they have a longer backlog down south because as toggle says they are incompetent.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 18, 2013)

panpete said:


> Really sorry to hear that chainsaw.
> I mucked up my form, and sent it off, ah feck em.
> Who wants to rely on a benefit that is begrudged anyway.
> I wish you the best.


Thanks panpete (I wonder how you do that thing where you highlight someone's name?) I think no matter how 'expertly' you do your form, there's always going to be a feeling that you haven't done it right.

I too have my suspicions about the date the appeal rules change, that's one plus about getting a new form now, rather than in September when I was expecting it. I tend to err on the pessimisstic/cynical (ok what I really mean is slightly paranoid ) side when it comes to these things.


----------



## toggle (Jul 18, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks panpete (I wonder how you do that thing where you highlight someone's name?) I think no matter how 'expertly' you do your form, there's always going to be a feeling that you haven't done it right.
> 
> I too have my suspicions about the date the appeal rules change, that's one plus about getting a new form now, rather than in September when I was expecting it. I tend to err on the pessimisstic/cynical (ok what I really mean is slightly paranoid ) side when it comes to these things.


 
you stick in an @ right before their name. if they have the alerts set to being on, they will get a notification.





chainsawjob


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 18, 2013)

Thanks toggle


----------



## Celt (Jul 18, 2013)

audiotech said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-south-east-wales-23353623


 

I went to see my doctor today, he tells me that they are not supporting any appeals, and there is a bit of me that thinks that maybe their time is better spent trying to get us well?

My letter will be in the post tomorrow, I have to give it a go, its taken longer than expected, its been hot, and I have been mentally not very well.  I need to have a weekend when this isn't formost in my mind.

I'm going to see Kenneth Brannah in MacBeth on saturday


----------



## Greebo (Jul 19, 2013)

Celt said:


> <snip>I'm going to see Kenneth Brannah in MacBeth on saturday


 
Always good to have something to look forward to.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 19, 2013)

ugh. relapseageddeon. I rang up to make a new Esa claim today, with a sense of 'this'll go well' flavour foreboding. sure enough, I've got to make a hard copy application instead of doing it over the phone because they have managed to keep my claim (which ended last year)  open somehow on their system and the lady I spoke to said she couldn't close it.
I have been down this road before, and aren't looking forward to the journey tbh.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2013)

Celt said:


> I went to see my doctor today, he tells me that they are not supporting any appeals, and there is a bit of me that thinks that maybe their time is better spent trying to get us well?



I won't speak on behalf of anyone else, nonetheless, I know all too well that a GP being supportive, when having to endure an appeals process, made me feel less ill.


----------



## panpete (Jul 19, 2013)

toggle said:


> you assume intentional malice. the simpler answer is their sheer incompetence.


Not assuming, just wondering?


----------



## Celt (Jul 19, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I won't speak on behalf of anyone else, nonetheless, I know all too well that a GP being supportive, when having to endure an appeals process, made me feel less ill.


 

yes thats true, My doctor left about 6 years ago, had just managed to establish some understanding with replacement GP, who left recently, hence I saw a doc that doesn't know me.


----------



## buscador (Jul 19, 2013)

Bastards at ATOS have just called to try to cancel my appointment on Monday afternoon because they have failed to deliver my paperwork to the correct office. My partner has already taken the day off as unpaid leave to accompany me and cannot change it. She will have to phone them on Monday morning to see if the file has arrived and the appointment can proceed. So my weekend, which was already ruined by the impending assessment, is now completely fucked by the uncertainty. Cunts.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2013)

buscador what a bunch of morons these guys are. How hard is it to deliver the files marked e.g. 'Glasgow' to the Glasgow office?

Unfortunately I think she'll have to phone two or three times on Monday morning because she's certain to get someone who has no idea where your file is. I wish you both all the best.


----------



## buscador (Jul 19, 2013)

Cheers. I'm just massively fucked off about the whole thing anyway, but while it suits buscadora to hope it may still take place on Monday so that she doesn't have to mess about swapping shifts or taking more unpaid leave I would rather it had been postponed so at least I wouldn't have to get wound up (perhaps unnecessarily) all weekend.

It's just appalling incompetence to call at 5-25 on the Friday afternoon when presumably no one has the ability to change the arrangements they have already made for the day. If they'd just phoned on Monday morning with this lame excuse I'd have been ok. Well, still angry, but ok.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 19, 2013)

buscador said:


> Cheers. I'm just massively fucked off about the whole thing anyway, but while it suits buscadora to hope it may still take place on Monday so that she doesn't have to mess about swapping shifts or taking more unpaid leave I would rather it had been postponed so at least I wouldn't have to get wound up (perhaps unnecessarily) all weekend.
> 
> It's just appalling incompetence to call at 5-25 on the Friday afternoon when presumably no one has the ability to change the arrangements they have already made for the day. If they'd just phoned on Monday morning with this lame excuse I'd have been ok. Well, still angry, but ok.


 
It's the whole 'get it off my desk before I go home' thing. There may be policies which require them to give a certain amount of notice to claimants but I wouldn't bank on it.

The whole organisation is barely competent.


----------



## Celt (Jul 20, 2013)

I got my letter to the DWP asking to accept a late request for them to look at my decision.  Posted recorded delivery, so lets see how this goes.

The gp not supporting is difficult, but we will see.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 20, 2013)

Celt said:


> I got my letter to the DWP asking to accept a late request for them to look at my decision. Posted recorded delivery, so lets see how this goes.
> 
> The gp not supporting is difficult, but we will see.


 
Fingers crossed for you Celt.


----------



## yardbird (Jul 22, 2013)

Ah ha 
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jul/22/disabled-benefits-claimants-test-atos


----------



## kittyP (Jul 22, 2013)

yardbird said:
			
		

> Ah ha
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2013/jul/22/disabled-benefits-claimants-test-atos


 
I was just coming to post this.
So rather than atos loosing the contract for failing to provide what they said they would, the government employ more people to watch their backs.
And we are the ones costing the country too much money


----------



## buscador (Jul 22, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> buscador what a bunch of morons these guys are. How hard is it to deliver the files marked e.g. 'Glasgow' to the Glasgow office?
> 
> Unfortunately I think she'll have to phone two or three times on Monday morning because she's certain to get someone who has no idea where your file is. I wish you both all the best.


 
Well, the assessment didn't go ahead. Apparently it is beyond the wit of atos to get a file from Wembley to Marylebone.

buscadora has written a stinking letter with the word "complaint" all over it. I will now use up this fortnight's pittance to take her to the pub.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2013)

'Poor reports by Atos doesn't mean the assessment was wrong.' Really? Doublespeak by the ministry goes into overdrive.
Laughable.



> We are sorry when we do not meet our own high standards but can reassure that a C-grade report does not mean the assessment was wrong and there are checks and balances throughout the system so that the correct decision on benefit is made by the department.


and:


> The professional and compassionate service we provide to claimants and the wellbeing of our people remain our primary consideration.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 22, 2013)

audiotech said:


> 'Poor reports by Atos doesn't mean the assessment was wrong.' Really? Doublespeak by the ministry goes into overdrive.


Alongside the fact that at least 30% of the assessments were bollocks it makes it even more meaningless. On average you'd then expect at least 30% of the C-graded to be bullcock as well.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2013)

'Checks and balances'? 'Correct decision made by the department'?

Economical with the truth there. I was told by a 'Decision Maker' at the DWP that the "department" go on the "sheet" they receive from Atos and that alone in their decision making. It is the independent appeal tribunals who are making the "correct" decisions presently.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2013)

buscador said:


> Well, the assessment didn't go ahead. Apparently it is beyond the wit of atos to get a file from Wembley to Marylebone.
> 
> buscadora has written a stinking letter with the word "complaint" all over it. I will now use up this fortnight's pittance to take her to the pub.


 
Sorry to hear that, she must be fuming (as well as you). Bet there's some ridiculousness where all files go to some central processing point in Inverness  or Exeter before being sent in.

Liked for pub visit.


----------



## Celt (Jul 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry to hear that, she must be fuming (as well as you). Bet there's some ridiculousness where all files go to some central processing point in Inverness or Exeter before being sent in.
> 
> Liked for pub visit.


 
Had a phonecall from the DWP today regarding my letter, they said I can proceed one of three ways, my review date is coming up to shoudl they just reassess me? (No, I  want them to change the incorrect decision they made(and I accepted till I knew it was wrong)) Should they reassess me taking my change of condition into account  (No there has been no change of condition, just their interviewer and I were apparently talking about someone completely different to me) or should they ask a judge whether to accept my late appeal  (yes please,)  they agreed to give me tome to decide and are ringing me back onFriday

I have spoken to the director of the charity I volunteer for and he has said he will support me and act as my advocate should I need it. I took the paperwork and saw him today, he said that he thinks I should be granted the right to appeal and has offered to write a supporting letter - I am so relieved,  its not the fight won, but during our conversation I learnt some stuff that made me understand me more and about the reasons I've let this situation get to this.

Relieved of North Wales


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

_Benefits and Work _has lots of news this month, although no doubt most of it's been posted up already (ie. ATOS reports and incompetence etc.), but here's a summary from the email I just got



> Atos have been left reeling after two severe blows to their survival as providers of medical assessments in the course of a week.  First, a government audit has found that their work capability assessments are so poor that not only must all their current health professionals undergo retraining but also new providers are to be brought in to break up the Atos monopoly by next summer.
> 
> Second, an upper tribunal judge has ruled that the opinion of a physiotherapist – on whom Atos are heavily reliant both for carrying out WCAs and even more so for PIP medicals -  is of no value if the claimant has a mental health condition.  The ramifications of this decision could be huge.
> 
> ...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

and



> and
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Greebo (Jul 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> _Benefits and Work _has lots of news this month, although no doubt most of it's been posted up already (ie. ATOS reports and incompetence etc.), but here's a summary from the email I just got


 
Yesssssssssssss!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Yesssssssssssss!


----------



## Greebo (Jul 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


The "Yesssssssssssss!" referred to the first bit of that email summary.

It's the start of official recognition that ATOS should be given the Grand Order of the Boot (ie. scrapped, done away with, and preferably not replaced).


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> It's the start of official recognition that ATOS should be given the Grand Order of the Boot (ie. scrapped, done away with, and preferably not replaced).


 
oh right.  I assumed it had been posted on here already so wondered why you were getting excited 

Have had to step away from all these benefit threads for a while as they're just depressing me


----------



## ddraig (Jul 25, 2013)

has this been posted?
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-disability-benefit-assessments-8727115.html


> More than 600,000 of the 1.8 million assessments carried out by Atos since 2009 have been the subject of an appeal, at a cost of £60m. Around 30 per cent of the appeals succeeded. Mark Hoban, minister for Employment, said: “Where our audits identify any drop in quality, we act decisively … It’s vital we continue to improve the service to claimants, which is why we are introducing new providers to increase capacity.”
> Richard Hawkes, chief executive of the disability charity Scope, said: “It’s about time the Government told Atos to smarten up its act. But, it’s also strikingly clear to disabled people that the whole £112m per-year system is broken.”


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> The "Yesssssssssssss!" referred to the first bit of that email summary.
> 
> It's the start of official recognition that ATOS should be given the Grand Order of the Boot (ie. scrapped, done away with, and preferably not replaced).


 
Yes, but they'll only be given a slap on the wrist and share the contract with the likes of Crapita or something equally dire that will just make us all realise that things probably won't change for the better significantly enough for us to all sigh with relief


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 25, 2013)

Just opened a Brown Envelope of Despair© (dated a week ago, naturally!) that informs me that THE BENEFIT YOU RECEIVE IS CHANGING, and that the DWP will be phoning me to answer any questions I have about ESA (I suspect they won't answer stuff like "is the allowance fit for purpose?", though), and that after we've spoken they'll send me a form to fill in. So far, so "fuck me, another fucking form!".
Apparently, if I haven't heard from the within two weeks of the date of the letter (that's next friday, then!), I should phone THEM. Fuck off, you piss-taking cunts. Do your job or don't do it, but don't expect me to pick up your slack, you incompetent wankrags! 

E2A: Just put fresh batteries in my dictaphone. They're going to get the "this call is being recorded for training purposes" treatment!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just opened a Brown Envelope of Despair© (dated a week ago, naturally!) that informs me that THE BENEFIT YOU RECEIVE IS CHANGING, and that the DWP will be phoning me to answer any questions I have about ESA (I suspect they won't answer stuff like "is the allowance fit for purpose?", though), and that after we've spoken they'll send me a form to fill in. So far, so "fuck me, another fucking form!".
> Apparently, if I haven't heard from the within two weeks of the date of the letter (that's next friday, then!), I should phone THEM. Fuck off, you piss-taking cunts. Do your job or don't do it, but don't expect me to pick up your slack, you incompetent wankrags!


----------



## panpete (Jul 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just opened a Brown Envelope of Despair© (dated a week ago, naturally!) that informs me that THE BENEFIT YOU RECEIVE IS CHANGING, and that the DWP will be phoning me to answer any questions I have about ESA (I suspect they won't answer stuff like "is the allowance fit for purpose?", though), and that after we've spoken they'll send me a form to fill in. So far, so "fuck me, another fucking form!".
> Apparently, if I haven't heard from the within two weeks of the date of the letter (that's next friday, then!), I should phone THEM. Fuck off, you piss-taking cunts. Do your job or don't do it, but don't expect me to pick up your slack, you incompetent wankrags!
> 
> E2A: Just put fresh batteries in my dictaphone. They're going to get the "this call is being recorded for training purposes" treatment!


Ah the letter of doom.
It also says, somewhere in the letter, "You are affected now"


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2013)

panpete said:


> Ah the letter of doom.
> It also says, somewhere in the letter, "You are affected now"


 
Affected should be infected with the poison that is ATOS


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 25, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
£300 million for software 

What planet do these idiots live on?

Do the software developers live on mars and all the information is being transfered between them and the DWP by royal mail?  

£300 million? Anyone would think that the developers had to sit and re-write the software everytime they needed to install it on another PC.


----------



## Quartz (Jul 25, 2013)

ddraig said:


> has this been posted?
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...e-disability-benefit-assessments-8727115.html


 

Careful. That could be construed to mean that ATOS get it right ~90% of the time.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 25, 2013)

Quartz said:


> <snip>ATOS get it right ~90% of the time.


 
Chance would be a fine thing.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 25, 2013)

The latest ESA50 01/13 plumbs new depths of obscuration and devilment.


----------



## Celt (Jul 26, 2013)

well my relief was short lived, new ESA50 delivered this morning, so that is the first year review a bit early, the day before they are to ring me back, wonder if they will call me.

c**ts


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 26, 2013)

(((((Celt)))))


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 26, 2013)

Celt said:


> well my relief was short lived, new ES50 delivered this morning, so that is the first year review a bit early, the day before they are to ring me back, wonder if they will call me.
> 
> c**ts


 


I'm wondering how long before I get next one despite his being awarded for 2 years


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 26, 2013)

Celt said:


> well my relief was short lived, new ES50 delivered this morning, so that is the first year review a bit early, the day before they are to ring me back, wonder if they will call me.
> 
> c**ts


Did you go to tribunal?

My solicitor has said that if tribunal awards you your benefit and says not to be reviewed for x years then if you get called in for an assessment before then then show ATOS the tribunal decision as it's a bit hard to overrule a judge. It might work with the DWP as well.


----------



## Celt (Jul 26, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Did you go to tribunal?
> 
> My solicitor has said that if tribunal awards you your benefit and says not to be reviewed for x years then if you get called in for an assessment before then then show ATOS the tribunal decision as it's a bit hard to overrule a judge. It might work with the DWP as well.


 
No,  I have asked them to accept a late appeal on their decision last year  which put me IN WRAG,


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 26, 2013)

Just got a text from friend who's been assessed as fit to work in 18 months.  He has 22 percent kidney function (and I think he only has 1 kidney)  Also had cancer a while back


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 26, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just got a text from friend who's been assessed as fit to work in 18 months. He has 22 percent kidney function (and I think he only has 1 kidney) Also had cancer a while back


----------



## panpete (Jul 27, 2013)

Hello, sorry to hear of all the latest grim things to happen to our members.

I just popped on to ask a question. How can I inform atos that I want a copy of my medical assessment report, because I forgot to request this on my ESA50 form.
thanks.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> <snip>How can I inform atos that I want a copy of my medical assessment report, because I forgot to request this on my ESA50 form.<snip>


Write to ATOS requesting a copy of your medical assessment report.  

Keep a copy of the letter and send it "signed for".  

That way, you've got proof of what you requested and you'll also have proof of when your request actually gets there.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hello, sorry to hear of all the latest grim things to happen to our members.
> 
> I just popped on to ask a question. How can I inform atos that I want a copy of my medical assessment report, because I forgot to request this on my ESA50 form.
> thanks.


 
Was going to post the same as Greebo but she beat me to it!


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Was going to post the same as Greebo but she beat me to it!


 
*Buffs nails which are still smoking after than turn of speed*


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> *Buffs nails which are still smoking after than turn of speed*


 
Hope your nails didn't get chipped


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Hope your nails didn't get chipped


 
It wouldn't show if they did; short and no varnish.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> It wouldn't show if they did; short and no varnish.


 
Same here


----------



## existentialist (Jul 27, 2013)

Well, all I can say is that in your haste to post what seemed to you like a good solution to the problem, you missed the best one, which would have been to train a flock of parrots to sing the message, in perfect four-part harmony, then tie them to a flock of messenger pigeons which could have led them to ATOS's hollowed-out volcano headquarters where they could have delivered it, and awaited a response to be delivered via the followup team of mynah birds.

See, in your rush to state the "obvious", you missed the best. Feh


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2013)

existentialist said:


> Well, all I can say is that in your haste to post what seemed to you like a good solution to the problem, you missed the best one, which would have been to train a flock of parrots to sing the message, in perfect four-part harmony, then tie them to a flock of messenger pigeons which could have led them to ATOS's hollowed-out volcano headquarters where they could have delivered it, and awaited a response to be delivered via the followup team of mynah birds.
> 
> See, in your rush to state the "obvious", you missed the best. Feh


 
Mynah birds are brilliant


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Mynah birds are brilliant


 
You've just reminded me to look out for "Arabel and Mortimer"


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> well my relief was short lived, new ESA50 delivered this morning, so that is the first year review a bit early, the day before they are to ring me back, wonder if they will call me.
> 
> c**ts


 
Did they call back in the end?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> You've just reminded me to look out for "Arabel and Mortimer"


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

<derail>  Sorry in this weather I tend to go off at all sorts of tangents.  


Minnie_the_Minx said:


>


 
Mynah birds are clever and can mimic human speech, the same applies to some ravens.  The Arabel and Mortimer series was written by Joan Aiken about a little girl and her raven (Mortimer), and done for Jackanory by Bernard Cribbens.</derail>


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> <derail> Sorry in this weather I tend to go off at all sorts of tangents.
> 
> 
> Mynah birds are clever and can mimic human speech, the same applies to some ravens. The Arabel and Mortimer series was written by Joan Aiken about a little girl and her raven (Mortimer), and done for Jackanory by Bernard Cribbens.</derail>


 
I know about Mynah birds, they're dead common in Malaysia (well the common Mynahs are).

I haven't heard of Arabel and Mortimer


----------



## Greebo (Jul 27, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I know about Mynah birds, they're dead common in Malaysia (well the common Mynahs are).
> 
> I haven't heard of Arabel and Mortimer


 
(Minnie's deprived childhood)


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 27, 2013)




----------



## panpete (Jul 27, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Write to ATOS requesting a copy of your medical assessment report.
> 
> Keep a copy of the letter and send it "signed for".
> 
> That way, you've got proof of what you requested and you'll also have proof of when your request actually gets there.


Thanks will do.


----------



## Celt (Jul 28, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Did they call back in the end?


they did,  sent my original papers to the appeals team,


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 28, 2013)

What a stroke of luck for Teresa May and her newly diagnosed Type 1 Diabetes, thanks to her chums she can now be reviewed by ATOS and cured in under 20 minutes.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 28, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> What a stroke of luck for Teresa May and her newly diagnosed Type 1 Diabetes, thanks to her chums she can now be reviewed by ATOS and cured in under 20 minutes.


 
I expect it'll be all "well, she's got diabetes and holds down a job, so what's wrong with you workshy slackers that you can't?"


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 28, 2013)

Let's see, I bet she can now wave goodbye to any far fetched chance of the PM's job.



apologies for the tempory derail.


----------



## Celt (Jul 30, 2013)

If anyone can direct me to the part is the work capability/atos medical/ESA50  where it refers to the repetition of movement and distance for walking?

I am looking myself but I am really distracted with pain and have a meeting tomorrow with someone willing to help with my appeal. I really need to be able to point him to these,


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> If anyone can direct me to the part is the work capability/atos medical/ESA50 where it refers to the repetition of movement and distance for walking?
> 
> I am looking myself but I am really distracted with pain and have a meeting tomorrow with someone willing to help with my appeal. I really need to be able to point him to these,


 
You do know for DLA to PIP, they're going to change it to 20 metres?


----------



## Celt (Jul 31, 2013)

yes, I'm in ESA appeal at the moment,  don't have to think about that....yet.

I'm looking through the work and benefits pdf, whilst feeling as though I have a burning pole going through my foot my calf and buttock


----------



## Celt (Jul 31, 2013)

ah, I think i may have found it,

how are you Minnie?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2013)

Celt said:


> yes, I'm in ESA appeal at the moment, don't have to think about that....yet.
> 
> I'm looking through the work and benefits pdf, whilst feeling as though I have a burning pole going through my foot my calf and buttock


 
Have just copied what I think you're after from the PDF.  I'm fine.  About to jump in a bath


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/31/atos-fitness-work-test-greg-wood

More from whistleblower Dr. Greg Wood about his resignation as an ATOS assessor. It seems he wasn't asked to falsify a patient's assessment, but was repeatedly ordered to do so in spite of the GMC policy expressly forbidding doctors from altering their reports and that they risk being disciplined if they do so.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/jul/31/atos-fitness-work-test-greg-wood
> 
> More from whistleblower Dr. Greg Wood about his resignation as an ATOS assessor. It seems he wasn't asked to falsify a patient's assessment, but was repeatedly ordered to do so in spite of the GMC policy expressly forbidding doctors from altering their reports and that they risk being disciplined if they do so.


 
Good on him


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 31, 2013)

Now, with ATOS's seemingly standard policy of demanding its assessors falsify medical evidence, I wonder what would happen if I were to scan a doctor's letter into my computer, put it into Word and then rewrite bits of it at my convenience before submitting it as supporting evidence in a claim or related appeal..?

The DWP would be down on me like a ton of bricks, wouldn't they?

Yet it's seemingly perfectly OK with the DWP and ATOS that ATOS can quietly order their assessors to falsify a medical assessment which the DWP will then use as a reason for stopping or downgrading a claimant's benefit payments. And ATOS expect their assessors to risk disciplinary action from the General Medical Council in order to provide fraudulent and false evidence which, in the event of said evidence being proven to be deliberately falsified, ATOS and the DWP will then deny all knowledge and probably leave the assessor responsible high and dry in the event of disciplinary and/or criminal proceedings being brought against them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 31, 2013)

I had the statutory phonecall from JobCentre+ to tell me about the transition from Incapacity Benefit to ESA yesterday evening (about 6pm).  Just the usual bollocks - pretty much a regurgitation of the 4 page letter they send.  The bloke said "any questions?", so I asked "can you tell me what 'healthcare professional' means, please?". 
According to "John", healthcare professionals are mostly ("95%" apparently!) qualified doctors or nurses.  Laugh?  I did, quite sarcastically.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 31, 2013)

After months of sorting out my mortgage payments with the DWP and filling in several M111 forms and having to make several phone calls to the idiots to sort their mess out I get a letter from my mortgage company this morning saying that from August I need to get all payments made into a different account number. So I now need to get the idiots at the DWP to change where the money goes to which will probably cock the whole thing up again. 

As for the mortgage company , in their letter they say "We're telling you now so you have time to make these changes". It's a bit late telling people that the account number has changed on the 31st July when most mortgage payments go out on the 1st Aug.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 31, 2013)

just spiderscrawled my 'esa1/ 04/13', need to scan it before posting, and reread the guidance notes to wok out if I need to send a sicknote now or later.

it begins


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 31, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I had the statutory phonecall from JobCentre+ to tell me about the transition from Incapacity Benefit to ESA yesterday evening (about 6pm). Just the usual bollocks - pretty much a regurgitation of the 4 page letter they send. The bloke said "any questions?", so I asked "can you tell me what 'healthcare professional' means, please?".
> According to "John", healthcare professionals are mostly ("95%" apparently!) qualified doctors or nurses. Laugh? I did, quite sarcastically.


 

95%


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jul 31, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> just spiderscrawled my 'esa1/ 04/13', need to scan it before posting, and reread the guidance notes to wok out if I need to send a sicknote now or later.
> 
> it begins


 
Hope it goes ok.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 31, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> just spiderscrawled my 'esa1/ 04/13', need to scan it before posting, and reread the guidance notes to wok out if I need to send a sicknote now or later.
> 
> it begins


 
That's a complete nightmare of a form. Is that for a claimant making a new claim because I haven't had one, yet.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2013)

Here is the link to Greg Wood's blog. There's some interesting posts about the mistraining, the 'bogus rules of thumb', in the posts starting with the 2nd post 4th line down. They're short, well worth a read.
http://worktestwhistleblower.blogspot.co.uk/?view=flipcard


----------



## Frumious B. (Jul 31, 2013)

How do we nominate Greg Wood for an OBE or something? For services to the disabled.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 31, 2013)

Libertad said:


> That's a complete nightmare of a form. Is that for a claimant making a new claim because I haven't had one, yet.


yeah, the initial form. i couldn't do a phone claim cause they fucked up closing my claim from last year  so have to do a paper application instead. it's not the medical questionnaire (esa50, i think?). this one was twenty-something sections long (can't remember how many pages, and can't find the fucking thing now   ) and only wanted brief details of illness, so i just put down what conditions/diagnoses i have - taht's all there was space for. haven't sent it off yet, mind - got three weeks to do that...

thanks for the lucks, frances.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 31, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> yeah, the initial form. i couldn't do a phone claim cause they fucked up closing my claim from last year  so have to do a paper application instead. it's not the medical questionnaire (esa50, i think?). this one was twenty-something sections long (can't remember how many pages, and can't find the fucking thing now   ) and only wanted brief details of illness, so i just put down what conditions/diagnoses i have - taht's all there was space for. haven't sent it off yet, mind - got three weeks to do that...
> 
> thanks for the lucks, frances.


 
If you need any help, just shout. Also if you want to discuss any specifics, start a conversation with the people you want to talk it over with as this thread is publicly visible. I'll help if I can x


----------



## Celt (Jul 31, 2013)

Had a meeting with the one person who has said they will support me and act as my advocate, we talked about what we were both writing to the DWP, we were to email each other our letters, he went home to write his this afternoon and I presume got swallowed by a black hole on his way home

I sent him mine  about 8.30, it makes no real difference but he laid out the plan that he would send me his this evening for me to alter anthing I  needed to and it woulld go in the post tomorrow morning.

That patience thing, I could do with some


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 31, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> How do we nominate Greg Wood for an OBE or something? For services to the disabled.


 
https://www.gov.uk/honours/overview


----------



## Celt (Aug 1, 2013)

He sent me a copy of his letter this morning, maybe it was as well as it made sobering reading, I re read mine and providing he has posted it appeal request is done.  Just got this years ESA50 to fill in.  I see you can do i online now,  I'm having a day off from it all tomorrow.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 1, 2013)

Celt said:


> He sent me a copy of his letter this morning, maybe it was as well as it made sobering reading, I re read mine and providing he has posted it appeal request is done. Just got this years ESA50 to fill in. I see you can do i online now, I'm having a day off from it all tomorrow.


 
I think that's a good idea, this stuff can be very draining. Don't forget to tell them just how draining it has been for you.


----------



## Bakunin (Aug 2, 2013)

More bad news for ATOS, the National Audit Office are taking an interest in them about their assessments:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sickness-and-disability-benefits-8744254.html


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 3, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> More bad news for ATOS, the National Audit Office are taking an interest in them about their assessments:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sickness-and-disability-benefits-8744254.html


 
Excellent....


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> How do we nominate Greg Wood for an OBE or something? For services to the disabled.


It's worse than an "embarrassing shambles", as Greg Wood puts it and with no disrespect to Dr Wood it has been disabled people themselves who have fought long and hard who should be nominated for any award in exposing these profit motivated charlatans. The DWP are culpable too, as are this government and the previous bunch, headed by a liar in chief.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> More bad news for ATOS, the National Audit Office are taking an interest in them about their assessments:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sickness-and-disability-benefits-8744254.html


 
I've not read it, but the last encouraging news about ATOS wasn't really that encouraging as it wasn't the assessments/decisions themselves that were being slated, but more the paperwork, and the Government said the decisions were correct.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2013)

The Independent piece focuses more about "value for money", but it does contain this nugget:


> Anyone taking the Work Capacity Assessment today is now eight times more likely to end up in a tribunal than a job and the cost of those appeals has soared by 40 per cent in the last year alone. Ministers have got to fix this mess – fast.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The Independent piece focuses more about "value for money", but it does contain this nugget:


 
Well I remember last year reports of the appeals costing £40m (or was it £60m), so are they saying 40% on top of that figure?!


----------



## audiotech (Aug 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Well I remember last year reports of the appeals costing £40m (or was it £60m), so are they saying 40% on top of that figure?!


I'm assuming so, but it's not clear. The figures released by the National Audit Office and reported in the Independent piece reveal that Atos has been paid £754m for assessments since 2005 and annual spending on the medical services contract had risen from £73.3m in 2005-06 to £114.3m in the year to March.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 3, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I've not read it, but the last encouraging news about ATOS wasn't really that encouraging as it wasn't the assessments/decisions themselves that were being slated, but more the paperwork, and the Government said the decisions were correct.


 
Well, they would, wouldn't they? The True Believer will swallow the line, but I have to say that to anyone whose suspicions are already being aroused, the government's bland denials are going to look suspiciously hollow. We're in for the long haul, and it may well be that most of the discrediting of this dark farce won't get done until long after it's stopped being carried on, but all of these things are nails in its eventual coffin. I just hope it doesn't happen so slowly that the damage done is irreparable for too many people, even though it's already too late for many.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I'm assuming so, but it's not clear. The figures released by the National Audit Office and reported in the Independent piece reveal that Atos has been paid £754m for assessments since 2005 and annual spending on the medical services contract had risen from £73.3m in 2005-06 to £114.3m in the year to March.


 
hm, so wonder if that's extra £40m is the increased cost of the assessments over the years, or the extra cost related to appeals?


----------



## Quartz (Aug 4, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> More bad news for ATOS, the National Audit Office are taking an interest in them about their assessments:
> 
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...sickness-and-disability-benefits-8744254.html


 

Great news.


----------



## laptop (Aug 4, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> hm, so wonder if that's extra £40m is the increased cost of the assessments over the years, or the extra cost related to appeals?


 

Looks like it's the ATOS contract:



> annual spending on the medical services contract


 
The contract wouldn't include the appeals, would it?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 4, 2013)

laptop said:


> Looks like it's the ATOS contract:
> 
> 
> 
> The contract wouldn't include the appeals, would it?


 

doubt it 

If they set aside that much for appeals, it would be almost like admiting it's fucked up


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 4, 2013)

laptop said:


> Looks like it's the ATOS contract:
> 
> 
> 
> The contract wouldn't include the appeals, would it?


That sounds to me like the contracts for the medical staff. So looks like they are having to pay more to get people to work for them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2013)

audiotech said:


> The Independent piece focuses more about "value for money", but it does contain this nugget:


 
The problem being that governmental logic usually dictates a "solution" that involves legislating away protections for clients, not legislating penalties for the *actual* wrongdoers.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 4, 2013)

http://www.afteratos.com/disabled-work-camps-abuse-ill-treatment-cruelty/

whats the story behind this then?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 4, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> http://www.afteratos.com/disabled-work-camps-abuse-ill-treatment-cruelty/
> 
> whats the story behind this then?


 
Reading between the lines, it's one of the consequences of the DWP's ability to direct which treatment (including rehabilitation) you have, on pain of having your ESA sanctioned.  Not entirely sure how it fits in with DLA though, there's a lot which seems borderline illegal about it.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 5, 2013)

Good morning all you who are wrestling with ATOS.  Inspired by accumulated accounts of bad behaviour, denial, and sheer incompetence, here's a little something to start the week.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 6, 2013)

What you need to know about Atos assessments.


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 6, 2013)

My head's gone all light and weird just reading that, couldn't read the regulations too!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2013)

audiotech said:


> What you need to know about Atos assessments.


 
You what?!



> Do you have supporting medical evidence from your GP or consultants. If you do, it shows that you are able to organise getting this information


 
Organise as in getting it out of a file or out of a bunch of papers? 

FFS


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2013)

> Were you reading a paper while waiting – assessing your concentration


 
Fine, plenty of people can look at a paper.  They may just be looking at page 3 or other pictures.  People with memory loss can read a paper.  Doesn't mean they'll remember any of what they've read 2 minutes later


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2013)

> The HCP will use lack of specialist input/ hospital admissions to justify assessing your condition as less severe.


 
or maybe there's no cure/treatment available for your condition or there's nothing else they can do for you

I give up reading this.  Only getting wound up


----------



## Greebo (Aug 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> or maybe there's no cure/treatment available for your condition or there's nothing else they can do for you <snip>


 
Looks like anyone with M.E. or CFS is provisionally stuffed by default unless they appeal after the assessment.  I hope I'm wrong.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 6, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Looks like anyone with M.E. or CFS is provisionally stuffed by default unless they appeal after the assessment. I hope I'm wrong.


 
It's all such fucking shite


----------



## Greebo (Aug 6, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> It's all such fucking shite


 
Agreed, but at least we're forewarned.


----------



## Celt (Aug 6, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> My head's gone all light and weird just reading that, couldn't read the regulations too!


no I can't finish reading it, trying to fill the form in I feel beaten already


----------



## buscador (Aug 7, 2013)

audiotech said:


> What you need to know about Atos assessments.


 
Thanks for that - some really useful stuff in there. Might take a few goes to properly digest it all though.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2013)

Celt said:


> <snip> feel beaten already


 
But you're not.  We're not.  All we have to do is to outlast the bastards.  I'm not saying that it's going to be easy or pleasant, but it can be done.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Looks like anyone with M.E. or CFS is provisionally stuffed by default unless they appeal after the assessment.


I have it, but I sailed into the support group. I can't broadcast how I did it. Maybe I could advise by PM or over a coffee.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I have it, but I sailed into the support group. I can't broadcast how I did it. Maybe I could advise by PM or over a coffee.


 
Thanks for the offer.  By PM would probably be the better option, given the physical state of VP at the moment.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Looks like anyone with M.E. or CFS is provisionally stuffed by default unless they appeal after the assessment. I hope I'm wrong.


I'm doing a pacing course at the moment from a specialist CFS clinic. Does that count?


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 7, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You what?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just tell them your solicitor requested your med notes. That should shit them up a bit.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I'm doing a pacing course at the moment from a specialist CFS clinic. Does that count?


 
Politeness does not permit me (even on urban) to reach for enough obscenities to fully convey my disgust and anger at what pacing courses and so-called CFS clinics have done to people with M.E.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Just tell them your solicitor requested your med notes. That should shit them up a bit.


 
The thing is, what's their definition of "organising"?

Does it means ringing consultants and getting letters?  Does it mean retrieving letter from your filing system?

If you've opted in to automatically receive copies of all letters from hospital, retrieving it from a pile of papers or a file hardly shows organising ability does it (especially if someone does your organising (filing) for you!)


----------



## Quartz (Aug 7, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> (especially if someone does your organising (filing) for you!)


 
You can delegate! You're clearly management grade! No benefit for you!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 7, 2013)

Quartz said:


> You can delegate! You're clearly management grade! No benefit for you!


 


No delegation involved if person (carer) is aware that patient/claimant would be unable to organise it themselves


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 7, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> You what?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
All this type of thing is exactly what gets overturned at tribunal for being irrelevant. It's fucking ridiculous.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Politeness does not permit me (even on urban) to reach for enough obscenities to fully convey my disgust and anger at what pacing courses and so-called CFS clinics have done to people with M.E.


Sorry to hear that 

Hopefully seeing a clinic will count as specialist treatment for me  but as I think I've got MS the couse will hopefully have no detrimental effects, although if they get me on graded exercise I might have a few neurological funny turns.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 8, 2013)

Does anyone here know who Pingu's mate could be helped by?  Thanks in advance.

Thread here.  
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/mate-dropped-right-in-it-atos-appeal.313727/


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Does anyone here know who Pingu's mate could be helped by? Thanks in advance.
> 
> Thread here.
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/mate-dropped-right-in-it-atos-appeal.313727/


 
Have posted some suggestions, hope one will work


----------



## Greebo (Aug 8, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Have posted some suggestions, hope one will work


 
Thanks.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Just got a text from friend who's been assessed as fit to work in 18 months. He has 22 percent kidney function (and I think he only has 1 kidney) Also had cancer a while back


 
Well he got the sack from his new job already


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 9, 2013)

Just sealed the envelope on my ESA50 about to take it down the post office, but there's one thing (ha! as if) worrying me, that I wonder if anyone has a view on. I enclosed a letter asking for any medical I have to be recorded, as per the advice on Benefits & Work, but if asking for a recording means I have to wait longer for a medical, I'm worried that will take me beyond the date when benefits are being stopped for people in the appeal process (if I have to appeal). Should I scrap asking for a recording, and will I be able to ask them to ignore that request if I decide to do that? Going to send it anyway now, and worry about this later, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 9, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> Just sealed the envelope on my ESA50 about to take it down the post office, but there's one thing (ha! as if) worrying me, that I wonder if anyone has a view on. I enclosed a letter asking for any medical I have to be recorded, as per the advice on Benefits & Work, but if asking for a recording means I have to wait longer for a medical, *I'm worried that* *will take me beyond the date when benefits are being stopped for people in the appeal process* (if I have to appeal). Should I scrap asking for a recording, and will I be able to ask them to ignore that request if I decide to do that? Going to send it anyway now, and worry about this later, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated.


 
I'm fairly sure that as long as you keep sending sicknotes in you can claim ESA for as long as it takes them to get you in for your medical. Don't take that as gospel, but I _think_ it's the case.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 9, 2013)

I'm a bit behind the latest developments, but are they really stopping benefits for those who appeal? I was hoping that would idea would be defeated.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 9, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> Just sealed the envelope on my ESA50 about to take it down the post office, but there's one thing (ha! as if) worrying me, that I wonder if anyone has a view on. I enclosed a letter asking for any medical I have to be recorded, as per the advice on Benefits & Work, but if asking for a recording means I have to wait longer for a medical, I'm worried that will take me beyond the date when benefits are being stopped for people in the appeal process (if I have to appeal). Should I scrap asking for a recording, and will I be able to ask them to ignore that request if I decide to do that? Going to send it anyway now, and worry about this later, but any thoughts on this would be appreciated.


 
NO, don't scrap asking for a recording.  If anything, they're likely to make some excuse for why it can't be recorded.  The more people that ask for a recording, the better, even if it does slow the system down.  They've tried their best to get out of recordings to avoid people having any proof of what goes on


----------



## Celt (Aug 9, 2013)

I had a letter from the DWP appeals section today to say they will review the decision they made and if they don't change their minds they will start the appeals procedure, so they are accepting/allowing  the late appeal.  So over one hurdle successfully.


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 9, 2013)

I got one of those the other day too. Yet another letter basically saying SFA


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## chainsawjob (Aug 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm a bit behind the latest developments, but are they really stopping benefits for those who appeal? I was hoping that would idea would be defeated.


Fraid it looks like it, from October 28, if you want to challenge a fitness for work decision, ESA stops while 'mandatory reconsideration' happens (which has no time limit), before you can put in an appeal http://johnnyvoid.wordpress.com/2013/06/11/disagree-with-an-atos-decision-then-starve-say-dwp/ - I think once you are appealing then you can get assessment rate again.


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 9, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> NO, don't scrap asking for a recording. If anything, they're likely to make some excuse for why it can't be recorded. The more people that ask for a recording, the better, even if it does slow the system down. They've tried their best to get out of recordings to avoid people having any proof of what goes on


Yes I know you're right that more people asking for recordings means they can be held more accountable, and yes, I don't expect it to go without a hitch either.


----------



## Jackobi (Aug 9, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm a bit behind the latest developments, but are they really stopping benefits for those who appeal? I was hoping that would idea would be defeated.


 
The changes introduce a mandatory reconsideration before appeal, whereas currently ESA claimants can appeal immediately. This means that where a decision is made to disallow ESA, a claimant will not receive any payments or be able to appeal until the reconsideration process is finished.

If a claimant disagrees with the reconsideration decision, they can then appeal, and will receive the ESA appeal rate. So, ESA claimants will still receive the appeal rate during an appeal, but not during mandatory reconsideration.


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## Jackobi (Aug 9, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> I'm not so certain about what would happen in a case where the claim date and appeal date fall either side of the changes. It's possible that because the appeal is considered from the date of the claim, any legislative changes during that time are not applicable.


 
Just to confirm panpete, I found this recently:

"*Q: Will the changes apply to appellants who started their appeal before the changes were introduced, but whose appeals are still ongoing?*

If an appellant lodged their appeal before the date when the appeals changes were introduced for their benefit (8 April 2013 for Personal Independence Payment, 29 April 2013 for Universal Credit, and 28 October 2013 for all other DWP-administered benefits), then the changes will not apply to them."

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/appeals-process-changes-q-and-a.pdf [PDF file]


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## Frumious B. (Aug 9, 2013)

How long does the mandatory reconsideration last? And does your lost benefit get repaid to you if your appeal is successful? And what are you supposed to live on during mandatory reconsideration?


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 9, 2013)

Jackobi said:


> The changes introduce a mandatory reconsideration before appeal, whereas currently ESA claimants can appeal immediately. This means that where a decision is made to disallow ESA, a claimant will not receive any payments or be able to appeal until the reconsideration process is finished.
> 
> If a claimant disagrees with the reconsideration decision, they can then appeal, and will receive the ESA appeal rate. So, ESA claimants will still receive the appeal rate during an appeal, but not during mandatory reconsideration.


 
Christ. I didn't know about that. Thanks for posting it.


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## Jackobi (Aug 10, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> How long does the mandatory reconsideration last? And does your lost benefit get repaid to you if your appeal is successful? And what are you supposed to live on during mandatory reconsideration?


 
There is no defined time limit for mandatory consideration of revision, it is dependent upon DWP time scale, which is usually snail paced. And that's the kick in the bollocks, it's either claim hardship payments, JSA or as is becoming prevalent in the UK, a food bank. If you can survive long enough to reach appeal stage, and win, payments are usually backdated to the claim date.

Straight from the horse's arse:

Time limits for reconsideration
A number of respondents suggested that a time limit should be introduced for the
completion of the reconsideration of decisions. It is important to the Government that each stage of the decision making and appeal process is carried out within reasonable timescales and does not result in unnecessary delays for claimants.
Some cases are considerably more complex than others and will require more time,to gather additional evidence, whereas other cases can be reconsidered very quickly. Because of this the Government does not accept that a statutory target would be appropriate.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...atory-consideration-consultation-response.pdf [PDF file]


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 10, 2013)

According to the ESA page on the DWP website, the address of which I have conveniently lost, ESA is not even an out of work benefit. It offers either financial support if you can't work, or personalised help so that you can work if youare able to.

EDIT: here is the link. Seems to me this is a rather big deal because this isn't how the government are selling ESA, certainly not to the likes of Dr Phil Peverley who joked about putting a picture of Stephen Hawking up in his surgery to dissuade the "unworking well", as he put it, with the slogan "this bloke's not on the sick".


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## Celt (Aug 11, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I got one of those the other day too. Yet another letter basically saying SFA


True, but in my case it means they accept the reasons I have given for my 9 month delay in appealing,some  of that being down to MH issues, as I am also in the process of filling in the ESA50 for the 12 month review, its useful to be reminded how my disability is almost pre programmed to fuck up this process.  Filling it in causes way to much introspection, really emotional, I want my life back   rather than having to describe the negative aspects of it .  but I will because the fuckers aren't going to beat me, well not yet.

I have a feeling that paragraph is unintelligible to anyone not living in my head, but have been filling in "tell us how your illness of disability affects your life" so how does pain affect my life...


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## Frumious B. (Aug 11, 2013)

Makes perfect sense to me, crystal clear.


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## Greebo (Aug 11, 2013)

Celt said:


> <snip> have a feeling that paragraph is unintelligible to anyone not living in my head, but have been filling in "tell us how your illness of disability affects your life" so how does pain affect my life...


 
It makes sense to me, Celt.  

If I had my way, anyone who was mentally or physically bad enough to be unable to work fulltime would get the highest rate of ESA and or DLA straight away for 2 years (or as long as they needed it, whichever was shorter), no questions asked except from their GP and/or consultants and/or social worker.  This sounds expensive, but it'd save a lot of money by reducing paperwork, and prevent so many medicals and appeals being needed.  It would also enable people to concentrate on looking after themselves and recovering if possible, or at least stabilising and getting any treatment or rehabilitation early.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 11, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I'm fairly sure that as long as you keep sending sicknotes in you can claim ESA for as long as it takes them to get you in for your medical. Don't take that as gospel, but I _think_ it's the case.


Was the case for me. 

GP's can't write a sicknote with a duration beyond 3 months. Whether or not you can convince your GP to keep writing them is another matter.

I'm not entirely sure what happens if you're already in the appeal process/en route to tribunal when the October cut off comes in - remember the government hasn't set a time limit for the duration of your second decision, so you could be in limbo for months.


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## WouldBe (Aug 11, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> GP's can't write a sicknote with a duration beyond 3 months.


DWP won't accept sicknotes of longer than 3 months for the first 6 months of a new ESA claim after that the sicknotes can be for longer. My GP writes sicknotes of 6 months for me.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 11, 2013)

Bizarre. 

Perhaps that's because 3 months is supposed to be the limit for the pre assessment period: ie you are meant to see ATOS by then.

As is obvious to everyone involved in this, the whole process is almost Lovecraftian in its bizarreness.


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## Greebo (Aug 11, 2013)

Celt said:


> True, but in my case it means they accept the reasons I have given for my 9 month delay in appealing,some of that being down to MH issues, as I am also in the process of filling in the ESA50 for the 12 month review, its useful to be reminded how my disability is almost pre programmed to fuck up this process. Filling it in causes way to much introspection, really emotional, I want my life back  rather than having to describe the negative aspects of it . but I will because the fuckers aren't going to beat me, well not yet.
> 
> I have a feeling that paragraph is unintelligible to anyone not living in my head, but have been filling in "tell us how your illness of disability affects your life" so how does pain affect my life...


 
Celt pain is a physical symptom which also has an impact on your mental function:
It can make it difficult to concentrate or think straight;
It can make you feel tired;
It can trigger depression (or make it worse);
It can exacerbate autoimmune conditions;
It can make you feel dizzy and/or sick;
It can kill your appetite and/or make you crave certain types of food - you might need prompting to eat;
It can mean that you have to remember to eat at certain times, if your painkiller is dangerous on an empty stomach;
It can mean that you have to carry food and drink (as well as painkillers) with you if you might be out for more than 2 hours.
It can make you grouchy or less able to behave in a socially acceptable way;
It can make you emotionally unstable;
It can mean that you have to have afternoon appointments, because your painkillers haven't had enough time to work before about 11.30am;
It can interrupt your sleep, leaving you less able to function the following day;
It can raise blood pressure;
It can raise cortisol levels in the blood;
It can make even minor wounds heal more slowly;
It can mean that even in a relationship, having sex at all before the painkiller has time to work is just not possible.

Contrary to popular belief, taking painkillers and anti-inflammatories does not always leave you pain free, merely slightly more able to function than when you can't or don't take them.

Then there are the side effects of the painkillers and any help you need because of that.

Bearing all those in mind, pick which ones apply to you.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 11, 2013)

(((Celt)))


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## buscador (Aug 12, 2013)

Unbelievably, my rearranged assessment, scheduled for this afternoon has just been cancelled because three of their "medical assessors" have phoned in sick.

Glad I hadn't managed to get dressed yet. buscadora is once again in a state of fury and it will cost me a small fortune in gin.

They have just tried to suggest a new appointment on a Saturday. buscadora suggested that they would not look on it so favourably if I had been unable to attend. The person on the phone replied, "No comment."

And so we sit and wait for a third attempt at an appointment. What a bloody farce.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

buscador said:


> Unbelievably, my rearranged assessment, scheduled for this afternoon has just been cancelled because three of their "medical assessors" have phoned in sick.
> 
> Glad I hadn't managed to get dressed yet. buscadora is once again in a state of fury and it will cost me a small fortune in gin.
> 
> ...


 
cheeky feckers


----------



## Greebo (Aug 12, 2013)

buscador said:


> Unbelievably, my rearranged assessment, scheduled for this afternoon has just been cancelled because three of their "medical assessors" have phoned in sick.
> 
> <snip>And so we sit and wait for a third attempt at an appointment. What a bloody farce.


 
Outrageously unprofessional.  


Minnie_the_Minx said:


> cheeky feckers


 
Word.


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## geminisnake (Aug 12, 2013)

so it's ok for them to jerk you around but not vice versa??    x infinity


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

buscador said:


> Unbelievably, my rearranged assessment, scheduled for this afternoon has just been cancelled because three of their "medical assessors" have phoned in sick.
> 
> Glad I hadn't managed to get dressed yet. buscadora is once again in a state of fury and it will cost me a small fortune in gin.
> 
> ...


 
Send them an invoice for the gin - and her time off work.

You're right, it is a bloody farce.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 12, 2013)

I'm looking through the physical descriptors and there is nothing that covers sight. The closest is "6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally or could reasonably be used, unaided by another person." But that's no good. My eyes get very tired, very easily. I'd struggle working on a PC for instance (not that PC'sa are the only issue). Nothing covers this. During the WCA they just whipped out a leaflet and asked if I could read a couple of sentences. As if that proves anything.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

In all seriousness document how much their cock-ups and general incompetence are costing you as a household.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm looking through the physical descriptors and there is nothing that covers sight. The closest is "6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally or could reasonably be used, unaided by another person." But that's no good. My eyes get very tired, very easily. I'd struggle working on a PC for instance (not that PC'sa are the only issue). Nothing covers this. During the WCA they just whipped out a leaflet and asked if I could read a couple of sentences. As if that proves anything.


I suspect that's deliberate. Advice that has been given on here before is don't be constrained by the descriptors. Add additional information at the rear of the form using extra sheets of paper with your name and NI number written at the top of each one (both sides). Vision problems will clearly affect all aspects of your life so spell it out to the decision maker what this means. For example, you mention working on a PC, but in an office that would also mean not being able to see exit signs in the event of a fire, or the top of a staircase, or a safe place to cross the road, or being able to read instructions of all kinds.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> During the WCA they just whipped out a leaflet and asked if I could read a couple of sentences. As if that proves anything.


 
Proves about as much as being able to pick up a coin from the floor or an empty cardboard box


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm looking through the physical descriptors and there is nothing that covers sight. The closest is "6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally or could reasonably be used, unaided by another person." But that's no good. My eyes get very tired, very easily. I'd struggle working on a PC for instance (not that PC'sa are the only issue). Nothing covers this. *During the WCA they just whipped out a leaflet* *and asked if I could read a couple of sentences. As if that proves anything.*


 
Would your conscience prevent you from saying "No, I can't read that?"

Not that you should have to do such things & don't take this as me advising you to lie.


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## Greebo (Aug 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Would your conscience prevent you from saying "No, I can't read that?"<snip>


 
If you can only do so with difficulty, the official answer should be "no" or "not unless/without... [mention required help or equipment here, also whether it takes you longer than if you weren't visually impaired etc, and whether it would have any effect on other things which you might need to do on the same day]".


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 12, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Would your conscience prevent you from saying "No, I can't read that?"
> 
> Not that you should have to do such things & don't take this as me advising you to lie.


I could read them. That isn't the point. Noone is going to find a job reading a couple of sentences on a page once a day. It's disingenuous.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I could read them. That isn't the point. Noone is going to find a job reading a couple of sentences on a page once a day. It's disingenuous.


 
The whole of the assessment is disingenuous. We know the whole system is farcical, unfortunately, claimants have to go through it.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 12, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> The whole of the assessment is disingenuous. We know the whole system is farcical, unfortunately, claimants have to go through it.


Indeed. I knew what it was like going in.

Completely useless for conditions like ADD/aspergers etc


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Indeed. I knew what it was like going in.
> 
> Completely useless for conditions like ADD/aspergers etc


 
and memory problems


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

And traumatic brain injury, mental health problems, neurological problems, complex health conditions especially two or more together in a patient, basically any chronic health condition where stability rather than full recovery is the most likely outcome.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm looking through the physical descriptors and there is nothing that covers sight. The closest is "6. Making self understood through speaking, writing, typing, or other means which are normally or could reasonably be used, unaided by another person." But that's no good. My eyes get very tired, very easily. I'd struggle working on a PC for instance (not that PC'sa are the only issue). Nothing covers this. During the WCA they just whipped out a leaflet and asked if I could read a couple of sentences. As if that proves anything.


 
It's historically been ridiculously-hard for people with sight problems to get Incapacity Benefit (now ESA) and Disability Living Allowance, because it's one of the "impairment" issues for which the most "adjustments" have been made, which totally misses the fact that it's not the social impact of visual impairment that's at issue, it's your ability *as an individual* to cope with it, and the effects it has on your ability to "function normally" in an ongoing manner.
As for the whipping out of a leaflet (or getting someone with a cooordination and/or weakness issue to pick up a coin, once!), of course it doesn't prove anything, except that you can accomplish the task once.  As the assessment is supposedly a "Work Capability Assessment", it *should* guage what you could/can manage over the span of a working day, but it doesn't, it just makes crude and inaccurate guesses based on the prejudices of the examiner.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 12, 2013)

Absolutely.

The whole WCA thing is so laughable that, were it not for people dying and being left to starve by a political system and a government (and an opposition, thanks to their collusion with the retrospective workfare legislation) that simply doesn't care, it would be hilarious.

It isnt' remotely a medical test. At all.

I'm currently trying to get a diagnosis for ADD/aspergers/whatever neurodiverse bollocks i use as my excuse for being a scrounger. I dread to think how the appeal tribunal will look on this. GP's aren't much help since the prevailing wisdom is 'arbeit macht frei' and work cures all ills.


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## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The whole WCA thing is so laughable that, were it not for people dying and being left to starve by a political system and a government (and an opposition, thanks to their collusion with the retrospective workfare legislation) that simply doesn't care, it would be hilarious.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sure you think you're being ironic but the sentence in bold makes it sounds like you are actually faking being ill and I'm sure you're not. 

And you are stating exactly what has been said on this thread for a couple of years now 

I hope you get your diagnosis soon.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 12, 2013)

It's black humour.

In the eyes of this government we're all and only scroungers.

At this point there isn't anything new that can be said on the subject, though I wonder how many people realise just what ESA is _meant_ to be. Not what IDS tells us it is.


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## chainsawjob (Aug 13, 2013)

Info on what's supposed to be happening with regards to recording medicals, don't think this has been posted before, couldn't find it by searching.



> Has the DWP let you know that you can ask for your ESA Atos face-to-face assessment to be recorded?
> 
> Posted on August 6, 2013
> Last month (12 June), Mark Hoban said this during a debate on people’s right to ask for a recording of their employment and support allowance face-to-face assessments:
> ...


 
from http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/20...-atos-face-to-face-assessment-to-be-recorded/


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> The whole WCA thing is so laughable that, were it not for people dying and being left to starve by a political system and a government (and an opposition, thanks to their collusion with the retrospective workfare legislation) that simply doesn't care, it would be hilarious.
> 
> ...


 

Actually, GPs are (as a profession) strongly against the current ESA regime. The BMA has taken votes 2 years in a row censuring it (basically, a doctor doing ESA assessments won't be a BMA member).
Of course, that doesn't stop individual GPs acting like the guardians of the public urse, but what also doesn't help is that financial constraints have made primary care much more needs-led than it was before, so getting a referral to a specialist is no longer a matter of just asking your GP/making a convincing case.  Now your request may get passed up the management chain for scrutiny and approval.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 13, 2013)

buscador said:


> Unbelievably, my rearranged assessment, scheduled for this afternoon has just been cancelled because three of their "medical assessors" have phoned in sick.


 


I don't know your circumstances at all, but may be worth repeating this (I think I've said it before on this thread, but at 132 pages it may get overlooked)

one of the WCA questions that appears at the time to be 'polite conversation' asks how you'd have reacted if the appointment had been cancelled at short notice.  They expect people to be British and polite about it.

However, IF it would have caused significant distress (I'm thinking mental health here which may or may not be appropriate to you) then it's right to say so.

Absolutely nothing asked at the WCA is 'polite conversation'...



buscador said:


> buscadora suggested that they would not look on it so favourably if I had been unable to attend. The person on the phone replied, "No comment."


 
if you are too ill to attend an assessment, then if you don't make contact then your claim will get rejected.  You need to make contact with them on the day, and will need to supply a doctor's note.

Taking the word of (someone who's already ill) that they were too ill to attend isn't done...


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## purenarcotic (Aug 13, 2013)

Not sure if this is really the right thread, but it is related and I thought it was interesting: http://www.communitycare.co.uk/arti...s-personal-budgets-and-individual-budgets.htm

This is both a guide to personal budgets and direct payments and also outlines what the latest research has to say on both.  It also outlines what you should expect from your social worker if you have the option to go down this route.


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## buscador (Aug 13, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I don't know your circumstances at all, but may be worth repeating this (I think I've said it before on this thread, but at 132 pages it may get overlooked)
> 
> one of the WCA questions that appears at the time to be 'polite conversation' asks how you'd have reacted if the appointment had been cancelled at short notice. They expect people to be British and polite about it.
> 
> ...


 
Thanks for that. If they ever manage to actually keep an appointment they have made I have no doubt that any natural inclination to be polite will be severely compromised. I'm not very good with any type of change and this cancelling at the last minute lark is pissing me off a lot. Curiously, I felt strangely calm yesterday morning - almost as if I knew that they were going to phone up and cancel it again. It was most odd. I don't and won't use the telephone so poor old long-suffering buscadora has to deal with them. Fortunately, she has an excellent telephone manner and can pronounce "unhappy", "unacceptable" and "complaint" very clearly and forcefully.


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## audiotech (Aug 13, 2013)

Threatening to forcibly: 'sue the arse off them' should be used more often IMO.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 13, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Actually, GPs are (as a profession) strongly against the current ESA regime. The BMA has taken votes 2 years in a row censuring it (basically, a doctor doing ESA assessments won't be a BMA member).
> Of course, that doesn't stop individual GPs acting like the guardians of the public urse, but what also doesn't help is that financial constraints have made primary care much more needs-led than it was before, so getting a referral to a specialist is no longer a matter of just asking your GP/making a convincing case.  Now your request may get passed up the management chain for scrutiny and approval.


Yes I know. But I think the 'arbeit macht frei' attitude is more prevalent. Just read what Dr Phil Peverley had to say the other day. It's disgraceful. The ignorance regarding invisible conditions, een if they aren't what might be regarded as illnesses in the traditional sense, is ubiqutous.

Perhaps we should forget our troubles and party like it's 1949, just like Channel 4.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 13, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> Info on what's supposed to be happening with regards to recording medicals, don't think this has been posted before, couldn't find it by searching.
> 
> 
> 
> from http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/20...-atos-face-to-face-assessment-to-be-recorded/


I'm just surprised Hoban took part in a debate. Last I heard McVey was filibustering on his behalf to make excuses for his utter disregard of Spartacus.

I'm sure I'm not the first to say this, but I like to say this whenever I get the chance: Hoban is the smuggest fucking cunt on the planet. Hardly surprising having sold his taxpayer funded secondhome for £155k, paying only 11k to the treasury leaving him £1 richer for every person Gideon declared would be made redundant going forward in the public sector in his autumn statement. If ever a politician needed a smacking it's Hoban.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm helping a mentally ill chap with his ESA tribunal, which is in five weeks. I'm trying to get social services to help, and they may attend. They haven't met him yet so I doubt they'll have time to learn enough about him to speak for him or supply evidence. There's a limit to what I can do because my ME keeps flaring up, and the guy is 'challenging' as they say in the trade. Which causes me stress and aggravates the ME. Does benefitsandwork have a guide for tribunals? If so, could somebody email it to me? My subscription has expired and I don't want to renew.


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## tufty79 (Aug 15, 2013)

hand delivered my esa1 form on Monday to the job centre,  to be internally couriered to the benefit delivery centre on Tuesday.
no sign of it having been received yet. got a handwritten receipt, but apparently it should've also been 'noted on the system'. it wasn't.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 15, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> . got a handwritten receipt, but apparently it should've also been 'noted on the system'. it wasn't.


 
What a surprise


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## Frumious B. (Aug 15, 2013)

It's only Thursday, give it until Friday next week.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 15, 2013)

If you're getting DLA this tool tell you when you'll be moved to PIP https://www.gov.uk/pip-checker. 2015 or later in my case.


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## DF-118 (Aug 15, 2013)

Thanks for the link, I'm also 2015


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 15, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If you're getting DLA this tool tell you when you'll be moved to PIP https://www.gov.uk/pip-checker. 2015 or later in my case.


 
Thanks for that, although as award is indefinite, hard to say when it will be up for renewal anyway, as contrary to popular belief, indefinite doesn't mean lifetime


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## Frumious B. (Aug 15, 2013)

Anyone got the benefitsandwork guide to PIP? I want to start a claim for somebody else.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 15, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Anyone got the benefitsandwork guide to PIP? I want to start a claim for somebody else.


 
Oh, has nobody responded yet. 

I had a quick look to see if there was anything about tribunals but couldn't see, then tried to log in, but have obviously got password wrong.

Will try again


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## Frumious B. (Aug 15, 2013)

I'm not being impatient, just making two separate requests.  One for tribunal guide, the other for PIP guide. No tearing hurry for either.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 15, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I'm not being impatient, just making two separate requests.  One for tribunal guide, the other for PIP guide. No tearing hurry for either.


 
PIP is listing

Points System
Self-Test
Timetable
Documents
Training
Glossary

Right, have found it, but it's 17 documents!

For ESA, for some reason, it's asking me to join, yet I am logged in.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 15, 2013)

ah right, wasn't looking in the _Members' section_


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## tufty79 (Aug 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> It's only Thursday, give it until Friday next week.


bloody hell. i rang back this morning to find out where i'm at, and spoke to a lovely bloke called steve. he went through all the 'arg' with me, and then mentioned about applying for a .. a .. i can't remember what it's called, but it's an advance benefit payment while you're claim's going through, sort of like a crisis loan replacement. i'd been getting so het up about them getting my form because some fuckmuppet told me i wasn't allowed to apply for that until they'd processed my esa1. steve pricked his ears up at that bit - turns out i could've applied for one since 18th july  . so he took me through the application 

they turned my application down. solely because my form turned up, they processed me, and they've put half the backdated esa into my bank today, and the other half is landing on wednesday.
i have bought a fuckton of food, cat supplies, and .. er.. maybe some poundshop coffee. and paid some bills, some of the money i owe to friends who've helped me out, and am absolutely weirded out that i don't want to get a victory lager or anything booze-related to celebrate with 
colour me absolutely astounded. and thank you to steve.


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 16, 2013)

I received a limited capacity for work questionnaire, my support worker tells me it means they are looking to re-asses me again..I won my tribunal in may! There is the chance i will have to appeal any decision & go back to tribunal!


FFS why cant they just leave me alone?


----------



## Celt (Aug 17, 2013)

I have finished filling in my ESA50, I had a letter this morning telling me they urgently needed it, strange as the date it was supposed to be returned by the 25th, I had intended to have it sent this weekend and will post it  recorded delivery this morning.   I have also submitted letters from my GP to the appeals people.  My niece is coming on Monday with my great nephews, they can't possibly get the appointment for my interview through that quickly.  Thank you people who supported me here.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have finished filling in my ESA50, I had a letter this morning telling me they urgently needed it, strange as the date it was supposed to be returned by the 25th, I had intended to have it sent this weekend and will post it recorded delivery this morning. I have also submitted letters from my GP to the appeals people. My niece is coming on Monday with my great nephews, they can't possibly get the appointment for my interview through that quickly. Thank you people who supported me here.


 
They have form for sending these 'we urgently need it' letters before the date they said they needed it by has actually passed. Smacks of harassment to me. Well done for getting it done, and no, they won't have the appointment set up that quickly.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2013)

Mindles$ said:


> I received a limited capacity for work questionnaire, my support worker tells me it means they are looking to re-asses me again..I won my tribunal in may! There is the chance i will have to appeal any decision & go back to tribunal!
> 
> 
> FFS why cant they just leave me alone?


 
Because the DWP is staffed by petty bureaucrats who seem to enjoy bullying claimants who get what they are entitled to. It is not your fault. Hang in there.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Mindles$ said:


> I received a limited capacity for work questionnaire, my support worker tells me it means they are looking to re-asses me again..I won my tribunal in may! There is the chance i will have to appeal any decision & go back to tribunal!
> 
> 
> FFS why cant they just leave me alone?


 
Because they refuse to leave any of us alone; because this is an exercise in the passive coercion of sick people off of social security; because the DWP are well-aware that this passive coercion "works" in terms of eroding the number of claimants, so as well as those whose ESA is withdrawn after their WCA, there's a "premium" of people so fucked off/disheartened and depressed by the constant bureaucratic merry-go-round that they cease their claims.

If you have to appeal *this* decision, and the findings of your previous tribunal are in any way relevant to this refusal, it's generally a good move to send copies of the relevant sections along with any appeal, as the tribunals are in gneral not looking kindly at the DWP constantly transgressing their decisions.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Because they refuse to leave any of us alone; because this is an exercise in the passive coercion of sick people off of social security; because the DWP are well-aware that this passive coercion "works" in terms of eroding the number of claimants, so as well as those whose ESA is withdrawn after their WCA, there's a premium of people so fucked off/disheartened and depressed by the constant bureaucratic merry-go-round that they cease their claims.


 
Yeah, the claimants who are obviously fiddling or don't need the money 

My friend luckily got to stay in Support Group I think, but said if they took her out, she wasn't going to appeal as she'd just had enough of the whole bollocks.  She's fortunate in that her husband can afford to support her, and it's people like her who are contributing to the fall in numbers claiming, people who are sick of it, even if they genuinely aren't fit for work. The DWP must love her and others like her for contributing to their "people dropping their claim" figures 

Sorry if that sounds garbled, I'm a bit busy


----------



## ash (Aug 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yeah, the claimants who are obviously fiddling or don't need the money
> 
> My friend luckily got to stay in Support Group I think, but said if they took her out, she wasn't going to appeal as she'd just had enough of the whole bollocks.  She's fortunate in that her husband can afford to support her, and it's people like her who are contributing to the fall in numbers claiming, people who are sick of it, even if they genuinely aren't fit for work. The DWP must love her and others like her for contributing to their "people dropping their claim" figures
> 
> Sorry if that sounds garbled, I'm a bit busy



I agree the powers that be would have the attitude that if your friend can be supported by her husband then she doesn't need the money and isn't vulnerable, needy or poor which are words that we are hearing more and more, being disabled isn't enough these days.  I wonder if we will get to the point when even the support group is means tested?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

ash said:


> I agree the powers that be would have the attitude that if your friend can be supported by her husband then she doesn't need the money and isn't vulnerable, needy or poor which are words that we are hearing more and more, being disabled isn't enough these days. I wonder if we will get to the point when even the support group is means tested?


 
yeah, but that's only because situation changed recently (ie. his dad died and left him some money), otherwise he wouldn't be able to


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## ash (Aug 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> yeah, but that's only because situation changed recently (ie. his dad died and left him some money), otherwise he wouldn't be able to



But we shouldn't t feel that people have to justify their means.  If your i friend came out of  the support group she wouldn't  (as far as I understand) be able to claim in the future as far as she would not be contributing NI contributions in the years prior to a future claim.   In any case people who are too disabled to work should have their own money she shouldn't have to ask her husband for money to buy him a birthday present etc Eric


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 17, 2013)

The coercion described by VP above is the lifeblood, the raison d'etre of all the changes in recent years. I see it as a criminal assault by the state, because it deliberately, knowingly makes people more ill and more disabled, forces them out of their homes and into hospitals, and in some cases causes them to take their own lives. The people at the top - especially Duncan Smith - know what's happening but they just keep ratcheting up the violence. He should be in a cell. Or given some disabling injuries.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> The people at the top - especially Duncan Smith - know what's happening but they just keep ratcheting up the violence. He should be in a cell. Or given some disabling injuries.


put him and me in a room. give me a rope, a chair, and a stick with nails in. see what i do


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> put him and me in a room. give me a rope, a chair, and a stick with nails in. see what i do


I have devised a new way of murdering someone. It's nigh-on undetectable but you need to get within a foot of the victim. It could be used when a politician is out shaking hands and kissing babies. The victim would collapse almost instantly, so you'll probably be a suspect. The autopsy and your equipment would be enough to convict you. The equipment costs about £15 at Tesco. If I think hard enough perhaps I can come up with a way to use something which would vanish at the scene. Like that story where the police eat the murder weapon (a leg of lamb), only much quicker.


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## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> If I think hard enough perhaps I can come up with a way to use something which would vanish at the scene. Like that story where the police eat the murder weapon (a leg of lamb), only much quicker.


been done, by alice sebold in 'the lovely bones' and probably one or more csi-type progs.
icicle


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

ash said:


> But we shouldn't t feel that people have to justify their means. If your i friend came out of the support group she wouldn't (as far as I understand) be able to claim in the future as far as she would not be contributing NI contributions in the years prior to a future claim. In any case people who are too disabled to work should have their own money she shouldn't have to ask her husband for money to buy him a birthday present etc Eric


 
Oh, I agree, but there's thousands that wouldn't


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> been done, by alice sebold in 'the lovely bones' and probably one or more csi-type progs.
> icicle


 


I saw that episode


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 17, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> been done, by alice sebold in 'the lovely bones' and probably one or more csi-type progs.
> icicle


This is much subtler than an icicle.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> This is much subtler than an icicle.


i am intrigued!
but can wait til i'm in your part of the world til i find out


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 17, 2013)

OK! Maybe by then I will have tested it. I made a mental list of all my worst enemies and imagined being given a chance to kill them, with no comeback at all. But I let them all live.  I just could never hurt anyone, much less kill them. I've never ever been in a fight, even as a schoolkid. I am Walter the Softy.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> OK! Maybe by then I will have tested it. I made a mental list of all my worst enemies and imagined being given a chance to kill them, with no comeback at all. But I let them all live.  I just could never hurt anyone, much less kill them. I've never ever been in a fight, even as a schoolkid. I am Walter the Softy.


i've got a list of people i'm willing to experiment on. and am willing to do it For Science.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> But I let them all live.  I just could never hurt anyone, much less kill them.


 

Fat lot of good you are then in the battle against evil 

What about if aliens invaded and were going to enslave you?


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 17, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Fat lot of good you are then in the battle against evil
> 
> What about if aliens invaded and were going to enslave you?


*this* is why hanging out with my apocalyptic mate and turning life into a zombie war survival plan/After The Plague scenario is actually useful. practical training for making homemade woodburning stoves, and stocking up on space blankets, radiation suits, and Determined Grit


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> The coercion described by VP above is the lifeblood, the raison d'etre of all the changes in recent years. I see it as a criminal assault by the state, because it deliberately, knowingly makes people more ill and more disabled, forces them out of their homes and into hospitals, and in some cases causes them to take their own lives. The people at the top - especially Duncan Smith - know what's happening but they just keep ratcheting up the violence. He should be in a cell. Or given some disabling injuries.


 
The problem being that while it is indeed a criminal assault on vulnerable people, they control the courts, so only the most egregious violations ever get brought to light - the suicides caused by the coercion, for example, but not the tens and hundreds of thousands of cases where people have their lives smashed. Dunked-in Shit is part of a generation of know-nothing "professional" politicians with little connection to the world of the people they govern, and worse, he believes in what he's doing, just as the likes of Miliband, Byrne and Purnell do - the withdrawal of the state from provision of services so that the private sector can milk the public tit.  We're just meaningless (to them) collateral damage.


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have finished filling in my ESA50, I had a letter this morning telling me they urgently needed it, strange as the date it was supposed to be returned by the 25th


 
I got one of those too, about a week or so before it was due back aye?? I put it down to twattery tbh


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 17, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I have devised a new way of murdering someone. It's nigh-on undetectable but you need to get within a foot of the victim. It could be used when a politician is out shaking hands and kissing babies. The victim would collapse almost instantly, so you'll probably be a suspect.


 
Create a mob, you can't all get caught


----------



## Libertad (Aug 17, 2013)

Celt said:


> I have finished filling in my ESA50, I had a letter this morning telling me they urgently needed it, strange as the date it was supposed to be returned by the 25th, I had intended to have it sent this weekend and will post it recorded delivery this morning. I have also submitted letters from my GP to the appeals people. My niece is coming on Monday with my great nephews, they can't possibly get the appointment for my interview through that quickly. Thank you people who supported me here.


 
Standard hassling tactics now, goes hand in hand with the reduction to four weeks to return from six weeks. Glad you got it in in time.


----------



## CNT36 (Aug 17, 2013)

A close family member has been made to fill in a form by ATOS. He has suffered from severe mental health problems in the past, suffers from epilepsy and has struggled with drugs and alcohol. After several years if sorting his life out he got his life back on track. He has been volunteering at a care home for the last year or so which has given some order to his life and spent a lot of time studying. He has every intention of going back to work at some point but due to his problems can be unreliable. He also spends a lot of his time helping other family members who are ill and other problems. Things took a turn for the worse a few weeks ago when he received a form from ATOS. He was concerned about it and a bit worried. Soon after receiving the form he had an epileptic fit.The first in months. I was away a couple of weeks with work and other things. Since i've been gone he has completed the form and things have taken a turn for the worse. I got back yesterday to the news he has spent the last two weeks depressed and has had to change his medication and his Doctor is concerned. He his having to go to the doctor every three or four days as the amount of  medication he is receiving is way above the recommended dosage.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2013)

CNT36 said:


> A close family member has been made to fill in a form by ATOS. He has suffered from severe mental health problems in the past, suffers from epilepsy and has struggled with drugs and alcohol. After several years if sorting his life out he got his life back on track. He has been volunteering at a care home for the last year or so which has given some order to his life and spent a lot of time studying. He has every intention of going back to work at some point but due to his problems can be unreliable. He also spends a lot of his time helping other family members who are ill and other problems. Things took a turn for the worse a few weeks ago when he received a form from ATOS. He was concerned about it and a bit worried. Soon after receiving the form he had an epileptic fit.The first in months. I was away a couple of weeks with work and other things. Since i've been gone he has completed the form and things have taken a turn for the worse. I got back yesterday to the news he has spent the last two weeks depressed and has had to change his medication and his Doctor is concerned. He his having to go to the doctor every three or four days as the amount of medication he is receiving is way above the recommended dosage.


 
I'm sorry to hear about your relative. For what it's worth, make sure the stress and it's effects are documented so you can use them at a later date. Sadly what he's going through is far from uncommon


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## Greebo (Aug 17, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I'm sorry to hear about your relative. For what it's worth, make sure the stress and it's effects are documented so you can use them at a later date. Sadly what he's going through is far from uncommon


 
True enough - VP's always worse and more miserable for a couple of weeks after filling in his DLA and IB forms.  He now warns first timers that the forms probably will make them feel worse because of the way they remind you quite how bad your life is.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Aug 18, 2013)

A squillion useful docs to share

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e0yu79xlrwhozix/lrGIYufUby


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## equationgirl (Aug 18, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A squillion useful docs to share
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e0yu79xlrwhozix/lrGIYufUby


 
Do you know if there is an updated version of the DDA document? Only it's dated 2006 and the Equality Act superseded the DDA in 2010 so it's really out of date. There's been some useful case law since then too.

Thanks for putting them all in the same place though


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## Frumious B. (Aug 18, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A squillion useful docs to share
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e0yu79xlrwhozix/lrGIYufUby


Blimey, that's a lot of docs! Are any of them benefitsandwork.co.uk guides?

eta: yes they are! My wish for the PIP guide has been granted.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 18, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A squillion useful docs to share
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e0yu79xlrwhozix/lrGIYufUby


 
Cheers for that, Taffers


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## Bakunin (Aug 18, 2013)

In other news, Nick Clegg has passed his ATOS assessment with flying colours.

That's what comes of lacking balls and a spine.


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## cesare (Aug 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Do you know if there is an updated version of the DDA document? Only it's dated 2006 and the Equality Act superseded the DDA in 2010 so it's really out of date. There's been some useful case law since then too.
> 
> Thanks for putting them all in the same place though


This is more up to date as a general guide:

http://odi.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wor/new/ea-guide.pdf


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## cesare (Aug 19, 2013)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> A squillion useful docs to share
> 
> https://www.dropbox.com/sh/e0yu79xlrwhozix/lrGIYufUby


It must have taken ages to collate all these, thanks for sharing


----------



## Barret01 (Aug 19, 2013)

government and civilian can not always get along with each other,anyway,i'm a new comer,hope to make friends with all of yours


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## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2013)

cesare said:


> This is more up to date as a general guide:
> 
> http://odi.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wor/new/ea-guide.pdf


 
Thanks for that


----------



## catinthehat (Aug 19, 2013)

My brother has just had his ATOS interviews.  He has had severe narcolepsy for about 20 years and spends around 80% of his time asleep which means he is certainly not the bright and breezy chap he used to be.  He used to be able to stay awake a bit when he was prescribed provigil but since he moved to England can get it via NHS.  He has to wear a breathing thing at night.  First appointment he told them its hard for him to get about first thing as he is being roused out of his narco state and it takes ages to get going and by the time he has its time for him to sleep again.  They gave him a 9am appointment.  35 miles away with no bus service.  He managed to get there under the steam of elderly parents but was told by the interviewer that she knew nothing about narcolepsy so would make him another appointment with the 'expert'.  Again this was made for 9am.  The expert knew about sleep apnea but not about narcolepsy and found him fit for work.  He was told he could appeal and get JSA in the meantime - that was four weeks ago and he has not had any payment despite filling out all the forms and providing the correct information.  He lives with our parents who are in their 80s.  He is going to appeal.

I will pass him on info from here which may prove of use - thought I should record the fact that ATOS consider a person who is only awake 20% of most days is fit for work.  (He would LOVE to be fit for work)


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 19, 2013)

catinthehat said:


> My brother has just had his ATOS interviews. He has had severe narcolepsy for about 20 years and spends around 80% of his time asleep which means he is certainly not the bright and breezy chap he used to be. He used to be able to stay awake a bit when he was prescribed provigil but since he moved to England can get it via NHS. He has to wear a breathing thing at night. First appointment he told them its hard for him to get about first thing as he is being roused out of his narco state and it takes ages to get going and by the time he has its time for him to sleep again. They gave him a 9am appointment. 35 miles away with no bus service. He managed to get there under the steam of elderly parents but was told by the interviewer that she knew nothing about narcolepsy so would make him another appointment with the 'expert'. Again this was made for 9am. The expert knew about sleep apnea but not about narcolepsy and found him fit for work. He was told he could appeal and get JSA in the meantime - that was four weeks ago and he has not had any payment despite filling out all the forms and providing the correct information. He lives with our parents who are in their 80s. He is going to appeal.
> 
> I will pass him on info from here which may prove of use - thought I should record the fact that ATOS consider a person who is only awake 20% of most days is fit for work. (He would LOVE to be fit for work)


 
He doesn't have to sign on til his appeal is heard - He can claim ESA at the appeal (ie lower) rate if he gets sicknotes from his doc. Not that he should have to though.


----------



## catinthehat (Aug 19, 2013)

Thanks for that - I will pass it on to him.  This thread has given me some great info for him - thanks to all involved.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 22, 2013)

I've received another apology from the DWP (these really stacking up now), this time from the 'Benefits Director', who has a CBE to his name. Ain't I the lucky one.  That is the good news. The bad news is this large cyst on my brain is staying put after a neurologist has decided it is not causing the excruciatingly painful headaches. How he reached this conclusion is beyond me? I'd hazard a guess that this could be NHS gate-keeping to keep within budget?


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## purenarcotic (Aug 23, 2013)

Ask for a second opinion and refuse to take no for an answer.


----------



## Quartz (Aug 23, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Ask for a second opinion and refuse to take no for an answer.


 

This.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Blimey, that's a lot of docs! Are any of them benefitsandwork.co.uk guides?
> 
> eta: yes they are! My wish for the PIP guide has been granted.


 
I offered to get it for you but you didn't send me an email address!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2013)

audiotech said:


> I've received another apology from the DWP (these really stacking up now), this time from the 'Benefits Director', who has a CBE to his name. Ain't I the lucky one.  That is the good news. The bad news is this large cyst on my brain is staying put after a neurologist has decided it is not causing the excruciatingly painful headaches. How he reached this conclusion is beyond me? I'd hazard a guess that this could be NHS gate-keeping to keep within budget?


 
And he's not going to try other tests to rule other possible causes out?

My friend has continuous pain and his consultant can't figure out what the cause is, but at least he's ordered further tests to rule stuff out


----------



## Mindles$ (Aug 23, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Because the DWP is staffed by petty bureaucrats who seem to enjoy bullying claimants who get what they are entitled to. It is not your fault. Hang in there.


 
Thanks for the support, I received a letter from DWP this morning telling me my contribution based ESA is going to stop in october, I have been on contribution based incapacity benefit from 2007, I went over to ESA after appeal earlier this year! takes the biscuit, don't know if i can cope with all this


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> And he's not going to try other tests to rule other possible causes out?
> 
> My friend has continuous pain and his consultant can't figure out what the cause is, but at least he's ordered further tests to rule stuff out


 
My pain is part idiopathic loin pain/renal pain (pain of unknown origin) and part spinal arthritis.  

Medics sometimes can't get to the bottom of things, despite their god-complex.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 23, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I offered to get it for you but you didn't send me an email address!


Sorry, I wasn't paying attention!   How about a tribunal guide? Is there such a thing?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Sorry, I wasn't paying attention!  How about a tribunal guide? Is there such a thing?


 
There was something about appeals I think but I either couldn't find it or was having trouble opening it.  Can't remember


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## WouldBe (Aug 24, 2013)

Got my date for my WCA at 09:55 in the morning.  I'm sure I requested an afternoon appointment on the ESA form.

No mention of wether it will be recorded or not and no mention of if a GP will be doing it due to neurological problems.


----------



## 8115 (Aug 24, 2013)

Mindles$ said:


> Thanks for the support, I received a letter from DWP this morning telling me my contribution based ESA is going to stop in october, I have been on contribution based incapacity benefit from 2007, I went over to ESA after appeal earlier this year! takes the biscuit, don't know if i can cope with all this


 
You could be due for income based after this I think.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 24, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Got my date for my WCA at 09:55 in the morning.  I'm sure I requested an afternoon appointment on the ESA form.
> 
> No mention of wether it will be recorded or not and no mention of if a GP will be doing it due to neurological problems.


 
WouldBe - forgive my memory, what do you have again? I'll check the DWP guidance for you.

Also: Phone them and ask them for an afternoon appointment saying that you put that on the form due to your medical issues. Also ask them to confirm they will be recording the assessment due to your memory problems.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 25, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> WouldBe - forgive my memory, what do you have again? I'll check the DWP guidance for you.


My medical problem is down as chronic fatigue syndrome but I suspect I've got multiple sclerosis.




> Also: Phone them and ask them for an afternoon appointment saying that you put that on the form due to your medical issues. Also ask them to confirm they will be recording the assessment due to your memory problems.


 
Will do. I'll check my copy of ESA 50 to see if I did put down afternoon appointment as I can't remember. Def said it would  be recorded.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 25, 2013)

The DWP guidance says CFS should be assessed by a doctor, because it's regarded as a neurological condition. They don't explain that in advance, don't expect them to mention it in your appointment letter. (This is going by my experience last year.)


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 25, 2013)

So apparently my case is now to go to tribunal, I have 2 weeks to decide if I want this. I have no idea if it is worth the stress/hassle.  Thoughts/experiences/help???


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So apparently my case is now to go to tribunal, I have 2 weeks to decide if I want this. I have no idea if it is worth the stress/hassle. Thoughts/experiences/help???


 

I won my tribunal in July 2012.  I was put in the work related activity group for 24 months.  I found the tribunal ok.  There were 2 women that heard my tribunal.  A dr and a lawyer.  Both very pleasant.  I would definitely go to tribunal if I were you.
I then received nearly £900 in back payment.


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 25, 2013)

I think my biggest concern is I can't evidence my biggest problem(lack of energy) It's a known side effect of ABIs but I can't show/prove how it does and doesn't affect me. I have no additional evidence either


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think my biggest concern is I can't evidence my biggest problem(lack of energy) It's a known side effect of ABIs but I can't show/prove how it does and doesn't affect me. I have no additional evidence either


 

I had no additional evidence for my case either.  I suffer from depression. Brought on by something shit that happened in the past.  I've had counseling etc in the past.  But nothing really helped.
But the tribunal listened to how my depression affected me.  Asked a few questions.  And that was it.  They told me there and then that they thought I wasn't fit for work.  They were both really nice people.  And I've heard the vast majority are.
In my view I had nothing to lose,  and everything to gain.


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## Frumious B. (Aug 25, 2013)

Are the tribunal interested in letters from GPs and specialists?


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Are the tribunal interested in letters from GPs and specialists?


 
Yes.  They look at all the evidence sent in.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think my biggest concern is I can't evidence my biggest problem(lack of energy) It's a known side effect of ABIs but I can't show/prove how it does and doesn't affect me. I have no additional evidence either


 

Ignoring evidence for now, can you explain how do you do feel it affects you?


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think my biggest concern is I can't evidence my biggest problem(lack of energy) It's a known side effect of ABIs but I can't show/prove how it does and doesn't affect me. I have no additional evidence either


 
Worth a read geminisnake?

http://www.brainline.org/content/20...line-talks-with-dr-nathan-zasler_pageall.html


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 25, 2013)

xsunnysuex said:


> Yes. They look at all the evidence sent in.


Is there a deadline for submitting evidence? Can you bring new evidence to the tribunal?


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Is there a deadline for submitting evidence? Can you bring new evidence to the tribunal?


There is no new evidence. I have an ABI, have had for over 10 yrs, it won't get better. That also kinda worries me. Lack of evidence new or otherwise iyswim.

Will have a shufty at that later, cheers Minnie.
Shit, just realised there are more posts. WIll come back to this later, really must go down town just now(which I put off as long as I can)


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Is there a deadline for submitting evidence? Can you bring new evidence to the tribunal?


 
You can.  They ask you when you arrive if there is anything you want the tribunal to see.


----------



## Frumious B. (Aug 25, 2013)

Great. I'm accompanying a guy to his tribunal next month. I'll try to get a letter from his GP. Unfortunately his problem is mental illness and he's not had a diagnosis from a psych and there isn't time to get one before the tribunal so I doubt the GP can say much. I am hoping that if the tribunal people get him chatting it will be flipping obvious to them that he's pretty far gone. He has a v chaotic life, he's an alcoholic, he's not getting any psych treatment. I hope that won't go against him, for 'not trying to get better'.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So apparently my case is now to go to tribunal, I have 2 weeks to decide if I want this. I have no idea if it is worth the stress/hassle. Thoughts/experiences/help???


 
What are your other options?


----------



## geminisnake (Aug 25, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Ignoring evidence for now, can you explain how do you do feel it affects you?


Yes, and most of it is negative. I can, on occasion, do a full day but I 'pay for it' for the next couple. When I'm tired I won't drive so it limits me in that way, and I'm not sure I could do 16 hrs work a week for more than a few weeks before it would 'catch up on me' iykwim.

existentialist, I think my option is not bother and get shoved in the WRAG. And I suppose now that I think of it that's not going to work if they want me to do 'training' days or whatever because my energy levels just aren't up to it 

Looks like I better just go for it


----------



## existentialist (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Yes, and most of it is negative. I can, on occasion, do a full day but I 'pay for it' for the next couple. When I'm tired I won't drive so it limits me in that way, and I'm not sure I could do 16 hrs work a week for more than a few weeks before it would 'catch up on me' iykwim.
> 
> existentialist, I think my option is not bother and get shoved in the WRAG. And I suppose now that I think of it that's not going to work if they want me to do 'training' days or whatever because my energy levels just aren't up to it
> 
> Looks like I better just go for it


 
Which is, kinda, why I asked what the alternatives were 

I think you're doing the right thing. Take all the support that's going, from here and elsewhere, and give it your best shot.

If it's any consolation, think of the tribunal thing, as well as getting what's rightfully yours, as "sticking it to the man".


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> The DWP guidance says CFS should be assessed by a doctor, because it's regarded as a neurological condition. They don't explain that in advance, don't expect them to mention it in your appointment letter. (This is going by my experience last year.)


 
Now that's why I was checking the DWP guidance yesterday but funnily enough it seems to have been updated to no longer say that within the last couple of months.

ViolentPanda Greebo what's your take on this (when you get chance to respond)?


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## Frumious B. (Aug 25, 2013)

Hmmm. Might be worth an ask in the benefitsandwork forum? I can't do it, my sub has lapsed.


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Yes, and most of it is negative. I can, on occasion, do a full day but I 'pay for it' for the next couple. When I'm tired I won't drive so it limits me in that way, and I'm not sure I could do 16 hrs work a week for more than a few weeks before it would 'catch up on me' iykwim.
> 
> existentialist, I think my option is not bother and get shoved in the WRAG. And I suppose now that I think of it that's not going to work if they want me to do 'training' days or whatever because my energy levels just aren't up to it
> 
> Looks like I better just go for it


 

I expect if you tell them that they will listen.  The tribunal really is a different ethos and a different way.  The intention isn't to catch you out but to impartially weigh up both your testimony and any supporting evidence you can provide.


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## spirals (Aug 25, 2013)

My medical was about ME/CFS and when I arrived I asked who I was seeing and was told it was a physiotherapist. So I asked how good she was at assessing neurological conditions and the receptionist vanished for 10 mins and then told me I'd be seeing a doctor


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## Greebo (Aug 25, 2013)

spirals said:


> My medical was about ME/CFS and when I arrived I asked who I was seeing and was told it was a physiotherapist. So I asked how good she was at assessing neurological conditions and the receptionist vanished for 10 mins and then told me I'd be seeing a doctor


 
Useful tip there, spirals.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Aug 25, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> So apparently my case is now to go to tribunal, I have 2 weeks to decide if I want this.* I have no idea if it is worth the stress/hassle.* Thoughts/experiences/help???


 
IME, it is. Definitely. I didn't even attend my tribunal (though you have got more chance of winning if you do), just signed the thing to say I wouldn't be attending and posted off all the paperwork to do with my case. And the only evidence I'd provided was my own written evidence. And I still won. I can't see that you're going to lose anything by doing it.


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## spirals (Aug 25, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Useful tip there, spirals.


 
It was down to the info on this thread (and the awesome people who posted it) that I knew what to say and how to prepare for the forms and medical really!


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Are the tribunal interested in letters from GPs and specialists?


Yes. My solicitor is sending 52 pages in for them to look at. 

Extra evidence needs to be in at least 7 days before the tribunal date to give them time to look at it.


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> IME, it is. Definitely. I didn't even attend my tribunal (though you have got more chance of winning if you do), just signed the thing to say I wouldn't be attending and posted off all the paperwork to do with my case. And the only evidence I'd provided was my own written evidence. And I still won. I can't see that you're going to lose anything by doing it.


geminisnake
If you send them a written letter explaining in detail how it affects you it might help. The tribunal only goes over the questions on the form which some medical problems don't fit into very well. By providing details of how your condition affects you they will at least have to look at it.


----------



## bob420 (Aug 27, 2013)

_Are the tribunal interested in letters from GPs and specialists?_

I would think so , DR's are very useful and they only cost £10
but some do cost £20

in my case atos and the dwp were not helpful and practically ignored all my special requests
and legal points raised, i was fighting them for almost 2 years, with little luck other than
delaying the procedure of a home visit
i was at one point on the verge of giving up and agreeing to the home visit (interrogation)

ATOS strongly objected to my delousing policy
all visitors to my home must be deloused before entry maybe granted
i do not have a problem with OCD
but i do like folk to be hygienic

however both the DWP and ATOS responded favorably to the letters written by my GP
the first letter my doctor wrote was to ask for a home visit

i asked my GP to write a second letter that stated that if i am forced to look for work or lose
my benefit, this would directly have a negative impact on my recovery
"in the opinion of my GP, it would worsen my conditions
of agoraphobia depression and social phobia"

my GP refused to write the second letter, so i complained to the GMC who advised me to
refresh the doctors memory on the GMC policy of Good communication section 22

To communicate effectively the GP must
a. listen to patients, ask for and respect their views about their health, and respond to their concerns and preferences
b. share with patients, in a way they can understand, the information they want or need to know about their condition, its likely progression, and the treatment options available to them, including associated risks and uncertainties
c. respond to patients’ questions and keep them informed about the progress of their care
d. make sure that patients are informed about how information is shared within teams and among those who will be providing their care.

after this GMC complaint my GP agreed to write the letter
it would seem my GP's word is well worth the £10 he chargers for it
even if he does need a kick up the backside to get him onside

after receiving the 2nd letter from my GP
A scrutiny had been conducted to review the new evidence i had sent from my doctor.
The atos doctor concluded that my medical evidence from my GP was enough to satisfy the requirements of the ESA support group, and that a recovery is unlikely for a minimum of 2-3 years
i was placed in support group without the need for a home visit or assessment


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## WouldBe (Aug 27, 2013)

*Audio recordings.*

In with my ATOS assessment appointment was a leaflet about the assessment it states




			
				ATOS said:
			
		

> <snip> ATOS have no legal obligation to provide an audio recording. <snip>






			
				ATOS said:
			
		

> If you would like either to ask ATOS to audio record your assessment or *to audio record the assessment yourself, *you must contact ATOS in advance to arrange it.


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2013)

My GP graciously wrote a letter in support of a home visit for no payment and the cunts at the DWP overruled it. I've also been informed by a neurologist that the large cyst on my brain is not causing headaches (what is?  ) and it is staying put. NHS cuts probably? A fun life in store for what's left of it.


----------



## buscador (Aug 29, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Send them an invoice for the gin - and her time off work.


 
Just received a reply to buscadora's second complaint letter which promises a cheque "to cover the costs [buscadora] has incurred as a result of our services". I suspect they'd have been less generous if she earned more than minimum wage, but it feels like a small victory anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2013)

buscador said:


> Just received a reply to buscadora's second complaint letter which promises a cheque "to cover the costs [buscadora] has incurred as a result of our services". I suspect they'd have been less generous if she earned more than minimum wage, but it feels like a small victory anyway.


Well done buscador. Pass my congratulations to buscadora


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

_



			“This is about changing the way we do business – and changing people’s behaviour by ensuring there is always an incentive to be in work,”
		
Click to expand...

_


> said Shiplee. Meaning: We will lie when assessing your claims; we will intentionallymishandle your claim to make it appear that you do not deserve benefit and we will maladminister any appeals; if you do receive benefit, we will harassyou to take part in our silly made-up programmes when you could be doing better things; if we find a way to cut you off, or you give up in despair, we will claim that as a _positive_ benefit outcome; and if you suffer hardship,destitution or health problems up to and including death as a result, we will not record them because we can claim it is nothing to do with us.
> That is my experience of the DWP, based on Mrs Mike’s experience with ESA.


Read on....


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 4, 2013)

Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!

I think I might be slightly pissed off.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
> Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!
> 
> I think I might be slightly pissed off.




Remember I had that problem.  Nothing about getting around safely if you have no memory etc.  

In fact, none of it takes into account memory problems.  They've listened to people with mental conditions, and physical difficulties, but sod all about memory


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
> Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!
> 
> I think I might be slightly pissed off.



It's not just visually impaired people, no. People with impaired hearing, seizures, absence seizures, hallucinations or anything else making them less aware of the world around them is likely to have some degree of difficulty in getting around safely. Sounds like ATOS are trying to pull a fast one by wording ESA50 forms in a way that makes it harder to fully explain a condition and its effects, thereby making it easier for ATOS to pass people fit regardless of their actual condition and for the DWP to simply rubber stamp ATOS assessments.


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## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

P.R.O.F.I.T


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## geminisnake (Sep 4, 2013)

I have sent off my appeal thing, but I am not optimistic. I now have to try to remember what life was like before the ABI, so I can explain how I am now, aye ok then


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 4, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I have sent off my appeal thing, but I am not optimistic. I now have to try to remember what life was like before the ABI, so I can explain how I am now, aye ok then


Almost the very definition of irony  - as brought to you by ATOS


----------



## spirals (Sep 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
> Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!
> 
> I think I might be slightly pissed off.



I found that bit incredibly hard to fill in too. *sympathy stick bump*


----------



## audiotech (Sep 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I think I might be slightly pissed off.



Nine months waiting list for mental health services this end.


----------



## Celt (Sep 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
> Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!
> 
> I think I might be slightly pissed off.



i have wondered how you were getting on with the ESA50?

The process is warped


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 5, 2013)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> They've listened to people with mental conditions, and physical difficulties, but sod all about memory



maybe they did but have forgotten?



seriously - 

not to mention  and  again.


----------



## ash (Sep 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Filling my ESA50 over the last few days, and I have to admit to being in a bit of a head-scratching situation with regard to "getting around safely" (section 8, page 11), as it concentrates exclusively on "getting around safely" if you have a visual impairment!
> Not to be snitty or anything, but apart from concentration and memory problems inherent to other medical issues | have, I'm also completely deaf in my left ear and have absolutely no Doppler perception (I can't "place" sounds because my hearing isn't binaural), which makes crossing roads etc nerve-wracking to say the least, as because I use sticks to walk, I have to concentrate on where the sticks and my feet go, as well as trying to visually-monitor traffic.  it's not just visually-impaired people who have problems "getting around safely", you bureaucratic muppets!
> 
> I think I might be slightly pissed off.


I would put what you have said (edited) -  I don't have a visual impairment but I have .......   and this effects my ability to navigate in this way ........ , I don't need a guide dog but need .... aids, I also need someone to be with me in ...... Situations etc etc.  might work, if not you've covered it for appeal.  I studied the guides inside out but don't feel like looking at them again now my other half has got through the ordeal but I know  you probably know the guides better than me.


----------



## ash (Sep 5, 2013)

ash said:


> I would put what you have said (edited) -  I don't have a visual impairment but I have .......   and this effects my ability to navigate in this way ........ , I don't need a guide dog but need .... aids, I also need someone to be with me in ...... Situations etc etc.  might work, if not you've covered it for appeal.  I studied the guides inside out but don't feel like looking at them again now my other half has got through the ordeal but I know  you probably know the guides better than me.


Forgot to say but goes without saying good luck


----------



## Greebo (Sep 5, 2013)

Celt said:


> i have wondered how you were getting on with the ESA50?
> 
> The process is warped


Proof reading it this morning  (checking for anything VP forgot to include or needs to clarify - also suggestions for tightening up the wording) before I go and post it.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 5, 2013)

ash said:


> I would put what you have said (edited) -  I don't have a visual impairment but I have .......   and this effects my ability to navigate in this way ........ , I don't need a guide dog but need .... aids, I also need someone to be with me in ...... Situations etc etc.  might work, if not you've covered it for appeal.  I studied the guides inside out but don't feel like looking at them again now my other half has got through the ordeal but I know  you probably know the guides better than me.


ViolentPanda   Good idea, thanks ash!  

This is the type of question where being able to bounce possible answers off somebody else can be as useful as the guides, but in a different way.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Nine months waiting list for mental health services this end.



My anger won't be assuaged by anti-deppressants and therapy.

That's because it's *righteous* anger.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2013)

Celt said:


> i have wondered how you were getting on with the ESA50?
> 
> The process is warped



TBF, I don't have much of a problem filling the forms in - I've done enough Incapacity Benefit, DLA and Attendance Allowance forms that the process tends to just make me feel a bit low afterward (the sort of low you get from being faced by your own or someone else's life being set out in it's full gory glory in front of you on paper).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 5, 2013)

ash said:


> I would put what you have said (edited) -  I don't have a visual impairment but I have .......   and this effects my ability to navigate in this way ........ , I don't need a guide dog but need .... aids, I also need someone to be with me in ...... Situations etc etc.  might work, if not you've covered it for appeal.  I studied the guides inside out but don't feel like looking at them again now my other half has got through the ordeal but I know  you probably know the guides better than me.



Good points all. Thank you.


----------



## buscador (Sep 5, 2013)

Well, just undergone the much anticipated "medical assessment" today. At the third attempt.

My initial reaction was a (probably misremembered) quotation: "That one may smile and smile and be a villain." For, indeed, the assessor made a valiant attempt to portray herself as an ally and in fact assured me there was "nothing to worry about" at the end of the meeting.

I found myself feeling desperately sad at a situation where physiotherapists cannot apparently find sufficient work as physiotherapists and have to fund themselves by carrying out this vilely misguided and vindictive government policy. About 30 years ago I had cause to need specialist physiotherapeutic advice and there was a distinct lack of access to physiotherapists even then.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 5, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, I don't have much of a problem filling the forms in - I've done enough Incapacity Benefit, DLA and Attendance Allowance forms that the process tends to just make me feel a bit low afterward (the sort of low you get from being faced by your own or someone else's life being set out in it's full gory glory in front of you on paper).



I appreciate it must be hard, but all the advice you give is much appreciated and you've given me tonnes of help


----------



## buscador (Sep 5, 2013)

Oh, and I meant to say, "Thank you" to everyone who's liked or replied or quoted or whatevered any of my posts on this thread because it (cheesy as it sounds) has been really helpful and supportive. I would say get yourselves down the Albert in two weeks' time and I'll fritter away my (probable) last benefit cheque buying you a pint, but I know buscadora has plans for that money and she'd be quite cross with me if she knew I'd even thought to do that. So. sorry.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2013)

buscador said:


> Oh, and I meant to say, "Thank you" to everyone who's liked or replied or quoted or whatevered any of my posts on this thread because it (cheesy as it sounds) has been really helpful and supportive.<snip>.


Sod getting down the Albert and blowing the last of your last benefit money, you are expected back on this thread to celebrate with a virtual party when (not "if", but "when") you eventually get the right result.


----------



## audiotech (Sep 10, 2013)

Just a reminder of ESA Regulations 29 and 35 - Substantial Risk Exceptional Circumstances - for those that need here from the campaigning group, _Black Triangle,_ to download for your GP to sign if you need to.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Just a reminder of ESA Regulations 29 and 35 - Substantial Risk Exceptional Circumstances - for those that need here from the campaigning group, _Black Triangle,_ to download for your GP to sign if you need to.


Thanks for that - here's hoping it won't be needed.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 13, 2013)

Just WTF 

Amy Jones, Cerebral Palsy Sufferer, Given Prognosis By ATOS That Her Disability 'Expected To Improve'



> A woman with cerebral palsy (CP) has been told she may lose her Employment Support Allowance as an ATOS assessment deemed her disability "would be expected to improve".
> 
> Despite suffering from the life-long, debilitating and incurable condition, Amy Jones, 24, can now expect to undergo reassessment every six months....



In my job as a support worker I look after a couple of people with cerebral palsy. I have absolutely no expectation of their condition improving anytime soon.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2013)

teqniq said:


> Just WTF
> 
> Amy Jones, Cerebral Palsy Sufferer, Given Prognosis By ATOS That Her Disability 'Expected To Improve'
> 
> ...


ATOS are clearly fuckwits. Even those without medical training understand that CP isn't a condition that improves.

If I ever have to go through one of their 'assessments' I bet they would say I could grow my missing kidney


----------



## yardbird (Sep 13, 2013)

Health fucking professionals!
Don't understand Cerebral Palsy, don't understand Multiple Sclerosis.
Cunts


----------



## yardbird (Sep 13, 2013)

"Good morning Mr/Miss Assessor.
Do you think I'm going to get better?
Shall I stand up and walk out of here with no sticks and no chance of falling down"


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Health fucking professionals!
> Don't understand Cerebral Palsy, don't understand Multiple Sclerosis.
> Cunts


Don't understand M.E. either.  Even urban does not allow the type of language which would do some of the assessors justice.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 13, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Don't understand M.E. either.  Even urban does not allow the type of language which would do some of the assessors justice.


They think M.E. is a me me problem that doesn't exist.
What would they do if someone feel asleep during the ass essment ?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2013)

yardbird said:


> They think M.E. is a me me problem that doesn't exist.
> What would they do if someone feel asleep during the ass essment ?


Sod the falling asleep - I'd be more intrigued to see the reaction to somebody who begins slurring, stuttering, and looking confused when asked a very short and simple question.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> ATOS are clearly fuckwits. Even those without medical training understand that CP isn't a condition that improves.



Also, most of us without medical training understand that for some people with CP, it's only their commitment to a regime of painful physical therapy that keeps them as mobile as they are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2013)

yardbird said:


> Health fucking professionals!
> Don't understand Cerebral Palsy, don't understand Multiple Sclerosis.
> Cunts



It's not about them not understanding, in my opinion.

At root it's about them *not giving a fuck* about the patient/claimant/client, only about processing another cash-cow.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Sod the falling asleep - I'd be more intrigued to see the reaction to somebody who begins slurring, stuttering, and looking confused when asked a very short and simple question.



The reaction would be "file under somatisation", more than likely.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 13, 2013)

teqniq said:


> Just WTF
> 
> Amy Jones, Cerebral Palsy Sufferer, Given Prognosis By ATOS That Her Disability 'Expected To Improve'
> 
> ...



Just fucking unbelievable, someone deserves to suffer for this and not Amy.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 13, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Also, most of us without medical training understand that for some people with CP, it's only their commitment to a regime of painful physical therapy that keeps them as mobile as they are.


Panda, this side of the herring pond it's "physiotherapy" not "physical therapy".  I agree with the rest of that though.


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## yardbird (Sep 13, 2013)

This nonsense  HAS GOT TO STOP!
Will no fucking MP pick it up and run with it? 
They could 'make a name for themselves'.
Investigate ATOS - It's methods, it's income strategy, it's software and why "we" don't own it,
it's recording policy. 
Plus Yardbird DEMANDS to know the name and qualifications of the "Healthcare Professional" interrogating him.
Sorry, I'm just so angry.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 13, 2013)

"Do not swear again during this 'interview'"
"Do what? How do you deal with a customer/client who has tourettes? eh? eh? Now may we please continue eh, eh cunt"


----------



## kittyP (Sep 13, 2013)

I am not reading this thread at the moment as it just makes me too anxious and I am doing a bit better over all and don't want to spoil it, but, just wanted to pop in and say much much strength to you all, you are in my thoughts and thank you so much for your help in the past. 
Love from me  x x


----------



## treelover (Sep 13, 2013)

> this is a email address of a UN official she wants to hear storys of how atos and dwp have effected disabled people, and she is doing an investigation into the breach of human rights by atos, please send her your storys of the awful experiances you have recieved via atos srhousing@ohchr.org


 

posted on FB, not sure about provenance but there are others like it, she is hoping to expand her report now to other benefit issues.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 13, 2013)

yardbird said:


> This nonsense  HAS GOT TO STOP!
> Will no fucking MP pick it up and run with it?
> They could 'make a name for themselves'.



There are very few ethically-independent MPs, and the few there are are usually snowed under.  None of the "machine" politicians will stick their heads above the parapet, not least because they don't give a fuck for "the little people". They're too busy dreaming of the sinecures they'll rack up when they leave Parliament.



> Investigate ATOS - It's methods, it's income strategy, it's software and why "we" don't own it,
> it's recording policy.



So far, there have been (IIRC) three official reviews, all of which have found grave fault, and all of which have led to very little change. 

As far as "recording policy" goes, I made it clear on my ESA50 that I *need* a recording of any assessment because I have a neurologically-based short-term memory retention problem that exacerbates the "brainfog" issues resulting from my M.E.



> Plus Yardbird DEMANDS to know the name and qualifications of the "Healthcare Professional" interrogating him.



Fucking A!!!
If I'm being "assessed" by a nurse or a physio, I want to know what experience they have as regards my various health issues, too!



> Sorry, I'm just so angry.



No need to apologise for righteous anger, my friend.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 13, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I am not reading this thread at the moment as it just makes me too anxious and I am doing a bit better over all and don't want to spoil it, but, just wanted to pop in and say much much strength to you all, you are in my thoughts and thank you so much for your help in the past.
> Love from me  x x



I've not been on these threads much either, as I don't need depressing.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2013)

Somebody should be doing jail time over this shit 

Severely disabled man told he must take medical to prove he is not fit for work



> UNABLE to walk, talk or feed himself, Ryan Norman has needed round-the-clock care since he was four months old.
> 
> Now, at the age of 20, Government bureaucrats say he must have a medical to see if he is fit for work before he can claim the benefits his mother relies on to care for him.
> 
> Ryan’s mother, Ceneta, his sole carer, claims she is in serious financial difficulties after Ryan’s child benefit and tax credits automatically stopped on his 20th birthday on September 1 – with a wait of several weeks before he is assessed for adult benefits....


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## WouldBe (Sep 15, 2013)

yardbird said:


> This nonsense  HAS GOT TO STOP!
> Will no fucking MP pick it up and run with it?
> They could 'make a name for themselves'.
> Investigate ATOS - It's methods, it's income strategy, it's software and why "we" don't own it,
> ...


If the MP's can't be arsed to do anything then we need to shut ATOS down.

Everyone needs to report the 'HCP' to their appropriate body and get then struck off. ATOS can't operate if no one willilling or able to do the assessments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> If the MP's can't be arsed to do anything then we need to shut ATOS down.
> 
> Everyone needs to report the 'HCP' to their appropriate body and get then struck off. ATOS can't operate if no one willilling or able to do the assessments.



I foresee a slight problem, comrade W.
That problem is that there's already a considerable amount of anecdotal evidence of HCPs refusing to give "clients" either their credentials or their full identities at assessments.
It's almost like they have something to hide...


----------



## yardbird (Sep 15, 2013)

I like the idea of this -

In the absence of a guarantee that you will provide recording equipment, I shall be bringing a stenographer with me.
A court stenographer - I trust that this is acceptable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2013)

yardbird said:


> I like the idea of this -
> 
> In the absence of a guarantee that you will provide recording equipment, I shall be bringing a stenographer with me.
> A court stenographer - I trust that this is acceptable.



Ouch!  A court stenographer, being an officer of the court, would present pretty much an unimpeachable version of events.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I foresee a slight problem, comrade W.
> That problem is that there's already a considerable amount of anecdotal evidence of HCPs refusing to give "clients" either their credentials or their full identities at assessments.
> It's almost like they have something to hide...


That just shows how thick the HCP's are then. When you appeal and get sent a copy of your forms and the WCA report from the DWP, the WCA report has the HCP's name in full on the first page.


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## yardbird (Sep 16, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ouch!  A court stenographer, being an officer of the court, would present pretty much an unimpeachable version of events.


Well, I'm out of all this bollocks for a now, being an OAP. Just hope that I'll be better by the time I'm re-assessed in a few years time.
However, an addition:- 

* We have no problem with yourselves (ATOS) providing a stenographer or recording the assessment.
 We trust that the name and qualifications of the assessor will be provided to the the stenographer, who will be giving a legal, signed and witnessed account of the meeting.
The name and address of your HCP will of course be kept confidential and only referred to if either of us are required to appear at an appeal.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 16, 2013)

Doesn't matter whether the DWP or ATOS understand ME. DWP rules say it's a neurological condition, so the WCA is conducted by a doctor. If you prepare well and use the resources at benefitsandwork. co.uk you can sail into the support group. I did. The snag is that if your ME is too bad for you to be able to work, you won't be capable of preparing well. So you need LOTS of help. If you don't get help, you're fucked.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Doesn't matter whether the DWP or ATOS understand ME. DWP rules say it's a neurological condition, so the WCA is conducted by a doctor. If you prepare well and use the resources at benefitsandwork. co.uk you can sail into the support group. I did. The snag is that if your ME is too bad for you to be able to work, you won't be capable of preparing well. So you need LOTS of help. If you don't get help, you're fucked.


Bit of a simplistic (verging on insulting) viewpoint - that if you *just* get help you'll sail into the support group. It is not that simple. It might have worked for you but there is still evidence that there is more too it than just getting help.

Plus there's been some sly updates to the DWP medical conditions guidance and previously some of those that mandated assessment by doctor no longer do so. Head injury is one such example - I checked recently. CFS/ME no longer mandates neurological assessment or even assessment by a doctor, which it did up to DWP guidance amendment in June. It also helpfully notes that CFS/ME 'predominantly affects young people'.


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 16, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> CFS/ME no longer mandates neurological assessment or even assessment by a doctor, which it did up to DWP guidance amendment in June.


 I didn't know that, that's disastrous. So nothing I said applies any more.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I didn't know that, that's disastrous. So nothing I said applies any more.


Yep. Goalposts have moved, or at least aren't publically visible.


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 16, 2013)

How did you find that out?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> How did you find that out?


Was re-checking the DWP guidance for someone on this thread and noticed that where they'd previously stated the assessment had to be carried out by a doctor, it had been changed. Checked the date and saw it was June this year.

Checked a few others and noticed they'd changed too.


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 16, 2013)

Got a link? I need to keep on top of this for when I get my next WCA.


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## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

Libertad said:


> Just fucking unbelievable, someone deserves to suffer for this and not Amy.


 
I think the U.N rapporteur has now extended her remit and is looking at ATOS/Govt disability benefits issue from a human rights perspective, I don't have the email to hand but she is accepting evidence, etc.


----------



## treelover (Sep 16, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I didn't know that, that's disastrous. So nothing I said applies any more.


 
Good grief, didn't know that...


----------



## treelover (Sep 17, 2013)

The gov are sneeking the abolition of annual reporting on tribunals through under the Draft Deregulation Bill.

Unfortunately the consultation window has closed but letters to MP's are still possible of anyone is up to it. 

http://blacktrianglecampaign.org/201...annual-report/


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## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2013)

This is the website I got the info from - it's the public DWP guidance for a range of medical conditions:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/

It does say this is used by Decision Makers for DLA/Attendance Allowance decisions, but I would be very _very_ surprised if the DWP Decision Makers aren't using it for ESA decisions in conjunction with the LIMA software output. I think this because of the amendments that have been made over the past few months effectively 'downgrading' the assessment requirements for conditions such as ME and traumatic brain injury. Obviously I haven't been through every condition to check changes, I have noticed these ones as questions were raised about these specifically and I had used them before June 2013.


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## Celt (Sep 18, 2013)

well I heard yesterday that they haven't changed their decision because of "lack of evidence" and my case is to go to tribunal.

I didn't really think they would change it at this stage.


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 18, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> This is the website I got the info from - it's the public DWP guidance for a range of medical conditions:
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/
> 
> It does say this is used by Decision Makers for DLA/Attendance Allowance decisions, but I would be very _very_ surprised if the DWP Decision Makers aren't using it for ESA decisions in conjunction with the LIMA software output. I think this because of the amendments that have been made over the past few months effectively 'downgrading' the assessment requirements for conditions such as ME and traumatic brain injury. Obviously I haven't been through every condition to check changes, I have noticed these ones as questions were raised about these specifically and I had used them before June 2013.


I've followed all the links but I can't find anything about a doctor no longer being required for the WCA. I can't even find a single mention of assessment requirements. Am I looking in the wrong place? 

I also searched the news section of benefitsandwork and couldn't find anything.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 18, 2013)

Celt said:


> well I heard yesterday that they haven't changed their decision because of "lack of evidence" and my case is to go to tribunal.
> 
> *I didn't really think they would change it at this stage*.



They seldom do, tribunal is where it all happens. Hope it goes your way.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I've followed all the links but I can't find anything about a doctor no longer being required for the WCA. I can't even find a single mention of assessment requirements. Am I looking in the wrong place?
> 
> I also searched the news section of benefitsandwork and couldn't find anything.


Look for the medical condition you are interested in for example ME. It used to say that a doctor had to do the assessment, since June that bit has been removed. That means the assessment can be done by a HCP which could be a nurse or a physio with no experience of that condition.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 18, 2013)

So you've assumed that doctors no longer do assessments just because that site doesn't say anything about who does them.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So you've assumed that doctors no longer do assessments just because that site doesn't say anything about who does them.



It's a valid assumption though, given that it's often through such revisions and/or omissions of decision-maker and "hcp" advice that Benefits & Work get their first clue as to what the DWP is up to with regard to particular policies.  I'd be inclined to treat eqg's assumption as valid until further notice.


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## WouldBe (Sep 19, 2013)

Looks like the DLA have accepted the tribunals decision as they have sent me a form asking where to deposit my DLA and back pay. 

They already have these details on record.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 19, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's a valid assumption though, given that it's often through such revisions and/or omissions of decision-maker and "hcp" advice that Benefits & Work get their first clue as to what the DWP is up to with regard to particular policies.  I'd be inclined to treat eqg's assumption as valid until further notice.



I disagree. It needs checking out before announcing it as a fact. Given the way that CFS, stress, depression and suicidal thoughts feed off each other,  I wouldn't dream of posting something so alarming without verifying it. It's heartless and irresponsible, and it needs editing to tell people that it's just a suspicion with an explanation of how that suspicion was arrived at, and an assurance that it's being researched further.


----------



## laptop (Sep 19, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I disagree. It needs checking out before announcing it as a fact. Given the way that CFS, stress, depression and suicidal thoughts feed off each other,  I wouldn't dream of posting something so alarming without verifying it. It's heartless and irresponsible, and it needs editing to tell people that it's just a suspicion with an explanation of how that suspicion was arrived at, and an assurance that it's being researched further.



Wind your neck in. 

The original assessment was:



> there's been some sly updates to the DWP medical conditions guidance and * previously some of those that mandated assessment by doctor no longer do so*. Head injury is one such example - I checked recently. CFS/ME no longer mandates neurological assessment or even assessment by a doctor, which it did up to DWP guidance amendment in June. It also helpfully notes that CFS/ME 'predominantly affects young people'.



That appears to be accurate. 

It doesn't say doctors no longer do assessments: it says their use is no longer mandated in those documents.

If you or others misread it, that's not the poster's fault.


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## Frumious B. (Sep 19, 2013)

You don't understand the point, you haven't familiarised yourself with the context and you don't have any relevant knowledge to share. 

I'll come back to this thread when I have some facts. In the meantime I suggest that anyone looking for guidance here should double check the 'information.'


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## existentialist (Sep 19, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I disagree. It needs checking out before announcing it as a fact. Given the way that CFS, stress, depression and suicidal thoughts feed off each other,  I wouldn't dream of posting something so alarming without verifying it. It's heartless and irresponsible, and it needs editing to tell people that it's just a suspicion with an explanation of how that suspicion was arrived at, and an assurance that it's being researched further.


I think we can reasonably accept that a web forum isn't exactly hardcore legal advice. Equationgirl has a pretty good track record on this stuff, and - whatever assumptions may have been made - I don't think her comments warrant the kind of attitude you're giving her on this. If you really think she's barked up the wrong tree, an "Are you sure about that?" might be a little more tactful than the way you have gone about it.


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## laptop (Sep 19, 2013)

Frumious: you scared yourself, and stayed scared because you failed to take a breath and re-read to see what was actually said.

I have all the information I need to parse the sentences you were reacting to, thank.


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## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> So you've assumed that doctors no longer do assessments just because that site doesn't say anything about who does them.


With respect, I've been involved in this thread and doing research on the LIMA software and the DWP approach to medical assessments for well over a year. I made the notification about the use of a doctor no longer being mandated because to me it is a significant change by the DWP to their assessment approach. I gave a link to the DWP website (primary source) and notified the thread of when the change took place. I have never tried to make out I am an absolute authority on ATOS or assessments in general, but thought this change was significant to talk about. 

I am both hurt and annoyed at your response as I have never tried to do anything but support those affected by the whims of the DWP, and present any information I find accurately and with links to the primary DWP source where possible.

Thanks to those posters who appreciated what I posted and why, and who stuck up for me - ViolentPanda, laptop, existentialist to name but a few.

ETA: Appeals have been won because the claimant hasn't been assessed by a doctor as mandated by the DWP themselves for their condition(s). That's why this set of changes is so important - it removes that appeal argument for the claimant. Not a good thing.


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## existentialist (Sep 19, 2013)

And on the basis of equationgirl's last post, I wish to retract any qualifiers I made about assumptions. It's pretty obvious to me now that her statement on the question of doctors doing assessments is unimpeachable.

I think that it might be politic and tactful to consider offering her something of an apology, Frumious B.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

Celt said:


> well I heard yesterday that they haven't changed their decision because of "lack of evidence" and my case is to go to tribunal.
> 
> I didn't really think they would change it at this stage.


They are wankers. Well done for sticking it out to tribunal stage.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Looks like the DLA have accepted the tribunals decision as they have sent me a form asking where to deposit my DLA and back pay.
> 
> They already have these details on record.



TBF, they send a note asking that because a lot of people have their DLA paid into a Post Office Card Account, and they're not able to remit your *backpay* to a POCA, only as a bank transfer or (which they may not do anymore) as a cheque.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> I disagree. It needs checking out before announcing it as a fact. Given the way that CFS, stress, depression and suicidal thoughts feed off each other...



You're having a pop at someone for making assumptions, and then post this shite making assumptions about the nature of ME/CFS, that all those with ME/CFS will be prey to "stress", and that this will necessarily cause "depression and suicidal thoughts". 
Guess what? Not even close.



> ...I wouldn't dream of posting something so alarming without verifying it. It's heartless and irresponsible, and it needs editing to tell people that it's just a suspicion with an explanation of how that suspicion was arrived at, and an assurance that it's being researched further.



You do realise that Atos has been using basic HCPs rather than doctors for neuro conditions since the inception of WCAs, don't you? Have a look on epilepsy-specific boards, or boards for Parkinsons.  They regularly use OTs to assess people with Parkinsons.  The "use a doctor for claimants with neuro conditions" is "best practice" *guidance* by the way, no longer regulation or mandated policy.  It's not "must use", it's "should use", unfortunately for us.

I know you get off on being precious and self-righteous, but frankly you should wind your neck in and do a bit more research yourself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

laptop said:


> Wind your neck in.
> 
> The original assessment was:
> 
> ...



Yup. Basically they've given themselves a "get out of jail free" card that has nothing at all to do with:
a) The low ratio of doctors to other healthcare workers that Atos use,
b) The BMA pretty much anathematising Atos and the DWP, and
c) The fact that they've found doctors to be a bit less pliable than nurses, physios and OTs when it comes to getting them to "revise" WCAs.

Honestly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

existentialist said:


> And on the basis of equationgirl's last post, I wish to retract any qualifiers I made about assumptions. It's pretty obvious to me now that her statement on the question of doctors doing assessments is unimpeachable.
> 
> I think that it might be politic and tactful to consider offering her something of an apology, Frumious B.



It might be.
I'm expecting a Jeremiad against Urban's monothought clique, myself.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, they send a note asking that because a lot of people have their DLA paid into a Post Office Card Account, and they're not able to remit your *backpay* to a POCA, only as a bank transfer or (which they may not do anymore) as a cheque.


My DLA has always been paid into a bank account. They already have those bank account details on record. IIRC they also ask what bank account you want your DLA paid into on the DLA form as well.  @ DWP

I think they are just using it as a delaying tactic so they can hang onto it for a few more weeks and earn a bit more interest on it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> My DLA has always been paid into a bank account. They already have those bank account details on record. IIRC they also ask what bank account you want your DLA paid into on the DLA form as well.  @ DWP
> 
> I think they are just using it as a delaying tactic so they can hang onto it for a few more weeks and earn a bit more interest on it.



No, seriously, it's a _pro forma_ they send out because a majority of people get their DLA and/or other benefits paid to a POCA, so they just mail out the _pro forma_ to everyone.  My dad got one when he got given Attendance Allowance, even though he had his pension paid into his bank account.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 20, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> <snip>I think they are just using it as a delaying tactic so they can hang onto it for a few more weeks and earn a bit more interest on it.


Nah - everyone knows that the DWP is your friend and ours.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It might be.
> I'm expecting a Jeremiad against Urban's monothought clique, myself.


Ah. I don't really know the poster in question, so was giving him the benefit of the doubt...


----------



## scifisam (Sep 20, 2013)

I have an ATOS assessment tomorrow. Saturday. At home, without me having to request it. Got the letter yesterday, on the same day as the letter saying "we will send you a letter with the date soon." All seems very odd.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 20, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I have an ATOS assessment tomorrow. Saturday. At home, without me having to request it. Got the letter yesterday, on the same day as the letter saying "we will send you a letter with the date soon." All seems very odd.


Good luck.  BTW take your time answering the door or get somebody to do it for you.  Your walk to and from the door may be observed and included in the assessment by the so-called healthcare professional.


----------



## geminisnake (Sep 20, 2013)

Have you got recording equip.?? If you have use it, also handy to have at least one witness. Good luck.


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## scifisam (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm convinced I'm going to mess it up somehow. Hard to switch from "be positive about your condition and trust your health professional" to the opposite.


----------



## geminisnake (Sep 20, 2013)

I've never had any problem having attitude to 'authority' figures. I think it came naturally from an early age  Just say to yourself tonight, lots of times, don't be fooled, they are cnuts.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I have an ATOS assessment tomorrow. Saturday. At home, without me having to request it. Got the letter yesterday, on the same day as the letter saying "we will send you a letter with the date soon." All seems very odd.


Will somebody be with you?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I'm convinced I'm going to mess it up somehow. Hard to switch from "be positive about your condition and trust your health professional" to the opposite.


These people are not YOUR healthcare professional, in the same way that a doctor is your GP, if you see what I mean.

Ask for their name and experience. If you want to PM me with your medical condition(s) I can check to see what the DWP guidance says regarding assessment of it. Make sure someone is with you to take notes if possible, they seem to behave better if you do.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2013)

And best of luck scifisam


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## manny-p (Sep 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> My GP graciously wrote a letter in support of a home visit for no payment and the cunts at the DWP overruled it. I've also been informed by a neurologist that the large cyst on my brain is not causing headaches (what is?  ) and it is staying put. NHS cuts probably? A fun life in store for what's left of it.


Sorry to hear this bro. Fuck the system. I feel for u.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I have an ATOS assessment tomorrow. Saturday. At home, without me having to request it. Got the letter yesterday, on the same day as the letter saying "we will send you a letter with the date soon." All seems very odd.



They're supposed to give you a clear 5 days warning, not just spring a visit on you the day before.
I had a DLA EMP try the same thing twice, phoning on a friday to *tell* me he was visting on the saturday.  I'm sure you can guess my reply.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I've never had any problem having attitude to 'authority' figures. I think it came naturally from an early age  Just say to yourself tonight, lots of times, don't be fooled, they are cnuts.



I'm much the same.  I used to be quite a bit less oppositional, but I've gradually come to realise that the only way you get things done is to stand up, look them in the eye, and give back as good as you get.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> These people are not YOUR healthcare professional, in the same way that a doctor is your GP, if you see what I mean.
> 
> Ask for their name and experience. If you want to PM me with your medical condition(s) I can check to see what the DWP guidance says regarding assessment of it. Make sure someone is with you to take notes if possible, they seem to behave better if you do.



They're basically a hostile witness, working for the other side.  They may tout their status as a "healthcare professional" (chiropodists are healthcare professionals, for fucks' sake!  ) as an emblem of neutrality, but they're bought and paid for by the enemy - by the people who have plotted with the DWP to reduce the claimant roll, and who are costing people theirhealth and their livelihoods (and in some cases their lives).


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2013)

He's not here yet. Tum-ti-tum. I'm quite happy to get it over with despite the short notice.

My GF's here to take notes and remind me of things I'm bound to forget.

The letter also says the dr might need to examine you. A male dr examining a female patient in her own home, and no chaperone requested.  So very strange.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2013)

Looks like they're not coming. :-(


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## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

scifisam said:


> Looks like they're not coming. :-(


Have they phoned to cancel? What was the explanation?


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Have they phoned to cancel? What was the explanation?



He turned up eventually, about 45 minutes late. I think it was OK except for a trick question - he didn't ask how far I could walk, but how long I could walk for. So I said 2-3 minutes. At a speed of a snail on weed, so that's just a few metres. But he'll probably convert that to 200 metres or whatever as if it were normal speed.


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## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

scifisam said:


> He turned up eventually, about 45 minutes late. I think it was OK except for a trick question - he didn't ask how far I could walk, but how long I could walk for. So I said 2-3 minutes. At a speed of a snail on weed, so that's just a few metres. But he'll probably convert that to 200 metres or whatever as if it were normal speed.


I hope it went OK. You can ask for a copy of the Atos report generated by the LIMA software, in fact you should because it will be hilariously inaccurate due to the way the software works. It's also worth cross-checking against any answer you gave just to see how the HCP has recorded your answer (clue: it's not usually what you said).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2013)

I've just invested in two seperate covert recording devices, on the off-chance I get called for a WCA - an audio & video-recording watch, and an audio-recording pen.
Not that I'm a suspicious, cynical and narrow-minded paranoiac, you understand!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've just invested in two seperate covert recording devices, on the off-chance I get called for a WCA - an audio & video-recording watch, and an audio-recording pen.
> Not that I'm a suspicious, cynical and narrow-minded paranoiac, you understand!


They are memory aids, are they not, given your memory problems? And it's only sensible to have two in case one doesn't work on the day


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> They are memory aids, are they not, given your memory problems? And it's only sensible to have two in case one doesn't work on the day



Exactly!! 
it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Exactly!!
> it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.


Then I can't see how anyone could reasonably object


----------



## scifisam (Sep 21, 2013)

We did record my assessment too, just on a phone on the shelf of the coffee table. My GF took notes too, and assessor immediately said that was OK, but they wouldn't be admissable as evidence. Rrrright. I also took photos of the notes (which records the time and date too of course) to show that we haven't made any changes.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

On the subject of recordings as evidence, the following is from http://www.disabilityrightsuk.org/news/2013/june/audio-recording-wca-assessments


> You can ask a Tribunal to consider a recording as additional evidence during an appeal. The acceptance of the recording as evidence is at the discretion of the Tribunal.


So if you typed up an exact transcript of the recording and sent along with a copy of the audio file to the tribunal, it would be up to the tribunal to decide if they wanted to accept it as evidence.

There has been some case law recently on the admissibility of covert recordings to tribunals, in the context of employment tribunals. This link is to a case law summary on a recent case where an employee wanted 39 hours of covert recordings admitted as tribunal evidence because she said they showed that the employer wasn't truthfully reporting various meetings. The tribunal refused her application because essentially there was too much material and it hadn't been made available, however they said she should make a more focused application as some of material may be relevant. The tribunal noted that although making covert recordings was distasteful, that in itself didn't make the recording inadmissible.
http://www.manches.com/news-publications/covert-recordings-admissible-in-tribunal


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2013)

Which basically means the assessor is taking rubbish, in my non-legally qualified opinion.


----------



## bob420 (Sep 21, 2013)

audiotech said:


> Just a reminder of ESA Regulations 29 and 35 - Substantial Risk Exceptional Circumstances - for those that need here from the campaigning group, _Black Triangle,_ to download for your GP to sign if you need to.



i found some of the information from the black triangle group quite helpful when i was fighting for my benefits 
also found this site helpful http://atosvictimsgroup.co.uk/

peace


----------



## treelover (Sep 22, 2013)

> Labour to create new offence of disability hate crime
> Liam Byrne to announce policy at conference on Sunday and reveal party will sack Atos from work capability assessments


 
Liam Byrne says Labour will sack ATOS if elected, but he is working with 'Disability Australia', Aus's recent history on benefits isn't good, this may be more about ATOS being inefficient and not getting enough back to work.

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/19/benefits-employment-liam-byrne



http://thefullfacts.com/esa/forum/

really really good site here


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> Liam Byrne says Labour will sack ATOS if elected, but he is working with 'Disability Australia', Aus's recent history on benefits isn't good, this may be more about ATOS being inefficient and not getting enough back to work.
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2013/sep/19/benefits-employment-liam-byrne
> 
> ...



Frankly I don't give the drippings off of a dog's cock for *ANYTHING* Liam Byrne says.  His politics are such that any stuff like the above is just "playing the game", rather than giving a fuck about sick and disabled people being shat on.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Exactly!!
> it's not like I didn't emphasise my memory problems on the form, either. As well as detailing the effects it has on my everyday ability to function, I also made clear I'd need any assessment recorded because of the memory issues, and the fact that my memory issues worsen when I'm stressed or tired.


I requested on my ESA form that the assessment had to be recorded due to memory loss. Assessor didn't know anything about it until she opened the ESA form.  She said if I wanted the assessment recording they could re-arrange the appointment for a day when other people wanted recordings so they could get the equipment and do them all together. (what's the betting the equipment wouldn't be available / broken on the day). So I took my dictaphone out of my pocket and removed the batteries and told her to get on with it while my sisters dictaphone was still running in her hand bag.


----------



## treelover (Sep 22, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Frankly I don't give the drippings off of a dog's cock for *ANYTHING* Liam Byrne says.  His politics are such that any stuff like the above is just "playing the game", rather than giving a fuck about sick and disabled people being shat on.


 
nor do I, but he may be DWP Secretary in 18 months time..


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2013)

treelover said:


> nor do I, but he may be DWP Secretary in 18 months time..



Which (among other things) will be proof that all of us who thought that it couldn't get any worse than Iain Dunked-in Shit, were very very wrong.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 22, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I requested on my ESA form that the assessment had to be recorded due to memory loss. Assessor didn't know anything about it until she opened the ESA form.  She said if I wanted the assessment recording they could re-arrange the appointment for a day when other people wanted recordings so they could get the equipment and do them all together. (what's the betting the equipment wouldn't be available / broken on the day). So I took my dictaphone out of my pocket and removed the batteries and told her to get on with it while my sisters dictaphone was still running in her hand bag.


Excellent work agent WouldBe


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 25, 2013)

Cheers


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 25, 2013)

Update on my research into this:



equationgirl said:


> there's been some sly updates to the DWP medical conditions guidance and previously some of those that mandated assessment by doctor no longer do so. Head injury is one such example - I checked recently. CFS/ME no longer mandates neurological assessment or even assessment by a doctor, which it did up to DWP guidance amendment in June.





equationgirl said:


> This is the website I got the info from - it's the public DWP guidance for a range of medical conditions:
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/



I asked the DWP by email: "I wonder if you could please let me know what amendments were made to this page in June? http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/...-medical-conditions/chronic-fatigue-syndrome/" Their answer:  "I can advise that there wasn't an amendment to the actual page content - the amendment relates to general changes made by our technical people to the presentation of all the guidance in the A-Z of Medical Conditions web pages. The content of the Chronic Fatigue Syndrome guidance therefore remains unchanged." 

At the benefitsandwork forum I asked whether the A to Z had formerly said that certain conditions were mandated for assessment by a doctor. The mod replied: “as far as I am aware this information has never been used in regard to what level of HCP is required to perform an ESA assessment for any given condition, this seems to be down to a couple of lists included in the contract between ATOS and the DWP, that were revealed by a Freedom of Information request some time ago”

The lists mentioned by the mod are in a DWP document called "Neurological Condition List by Practitioner Type". The document is subject to revision. People often ask for the document in a FOI request, so although the DWP never announces when it has been revised, the latest version quickly finds its way on to whatdotheyknow.com. We're now on version 5. It was supplied in this answer on June 24. Here are the lists:












I emailed the 'only for doctors' list to ATOS and asked if it was still current, and much to my surprise they confirmed that it is.

I'm certain that the DWP A to Z has never said which conditions mandate a doctor. In fact no government site has ever provided such info to the public. If it had it would have been referenced in a great many forums and blogs. There would have been no need for the many FOI requests about it. And if FOI requests had been made, the answers would have said “the DWP is not obliged to answer your question because the information is publicly accessible on the DWP site.” That's how the FOIA works.

An important point about the lists is in the intro on p.4 of the DWP doc: "The lists are *not exhaustive*." (Their emphasis.)
What this means in practice is that a neurological condition not on the list can still get you a real doctor for your WCA. CFS/ME has never been on the list, but some CFS/ME sufferers, including me, have had a real doctor. My medical was in August last year. I don't know why I was allocated a doctor. I haven't found any info about that part of the DWP decision process.   Perhaps my CFS appeared complex because I've been diagnosed at a CFS clinic. Perhaps it's because I have several comorbid conditions. Perhaps if you mention a particular symptom on the ESA50 you get put in the 'complex neurological' pile. All I know for certain is that the people at the ATOS centre were instructed that I had to see a doctor. Maybe the answer is in a FOI request which I haven't read yet. There are so many of them....ATOS is mentioned in 400+.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Update on my research into this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I don't want to turn this thread into a massive argument about who is right (and no, that's not me bottling it and conceding the argument).

Thank you for your research into this. My original post still stands, the DWP has changed content on the website to the best of my knowledge because not only was the format of the page changed but information was changed too. I believe a statement from the DWP about as much as I believe Cameron when he says 'we're all in it together' to be honest.

Again, I never said a claimant would NEVER be seen by a doctor at an assessment, I said the DWP A-Z guidance had removed the statement where they would only accept evidence from a doctor and that I believed this amendment NO LONGER MANDATED assessment by doctor. 

There is a growing body of evidence that claimants with complex conditions are not seen by a suitably qualified person at their assessment. Some people will be seen by doctors at assessment but others that should be seen by one won't meaning they are seen by nurses and even physios. 

And it's a bit rich for you to say I'm making assertions I can't back up when you make similar claims yourself:


> *I'm certain that the DWP A to Z has never said which conditions mandate a doctor*. *In fact no government site has ever provided such info to the public*. If it had it would have been referenced in a great many forums and blogs. There would have been no need for the many FOI requests about it. And if FOI requests had been made, the answers would have said “the DWP is not obliged to answer your question because the information is publicly accessible on the DWP site.” That's how the FOIA works.


----------



## ash (Sep 25, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which (among other things) will be proof that all of us who thought that it couldn't get any worse than Iain Dunked-in Shit, were very very wrong.



When the Welfare Reform bill was going through the commons and lords and back again as these bills do we sent letters to as many MP,s and the lords and ladies as we practically could.  Him indoors was affected so we fought to be heard.  In the Commons the reaction from most who replied from all parties was that the Welfare Reform Bill was a good thing.  Steven Timms and another who I can't remember said they would support the WRAG group being 2 years instead of one for those on CB ESA.  The rest were a shower of Shiite, apart from Kate Hoey our MP who emailed a couple of times, realised there was some misunderstanding between us and phoned spoke to him indoors much to his surprise.  She seemed to understand.  Some of the people that we contacted in the House of Lords were far more receptive and our letter was read out.  Sadly all to no avail but you have to do your best ?!  The other issue is that some of the third sector organisations (used to be called charities) are businesses and making profit and generally their lobbying was extremely ineffectual.  There was and is a massive conflict of interest as they were looking to obtain employability type contracts on the back of the WRB. I rest my case : (


----------



## Frumious B. (Sep 26, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> And it's a bit rich for you to say I'm making assertions I can't back up when you make similar claims yourself:


Um, I did back it up - have a look at the rest of the para you quoted.


----------



## bob420 (Sep 26, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I've never had any problem having attitude to 'authority' figures. I think it came naturally from an early age  Just say to yourself tonight, lots of times, don't be fooled, they are cnuts.


 
nice post mate, i like you find it easy to tell these atos fools where to go,
i find them quite disgusting and shudder at the thought of them being anywhere near me
atos and the government attempt to take some kind of moral high ground over me, they suggest that a WCA assessment is in my interest

it would seem they want me to consent to something that i am clearly not happy with
they need either my consent or my refusal for the process to continue 
i believe giving consent to the assessment is not an option for me, i will always challenge it
i am under no obligation to trust them, much of the information i have seen has led me to believe trusting atos would be foolish

from my own experience the best solution for myself was to make the assessment virtually impossible for them to conduct
because of the endless "special requests" that i make, while at the same time never refusing the assessment as this would be grounds
for non-compliance

on several occasions i accused them of dishonorable behavior/ practices
i made it clear to them that i do not trust them and i think their objective is to cause me harm
as they attempted to initially take the moral high ground with me, i decided to give them a taste of their own medicine

all of my correspondence to them was of a hostile accusing nature where i ask them to prove they are not
trying to kill me

since an atos employee on the panorama tv show labeled herself "toxic" this self admission was enough information for me
to genuinely fear these "toxic" people  (HCP)

i also made it very clear that i am a very difficult person to handle. i will require extremely precise treatment
anything they propose to subject me to must be declared in writing

the WCA assessment is not fit for purpose they use intimidation and misinformation to trick people into consenting to it

these are some of the conditions i sent them,
i also sent atos a letter from my GP stating that removing my benefit would worsen my conditions

1 video and audio surveillance CCTV i have the right to use cctv to record  my property , i reserve the rights to publish the video on youtube and or any other media outlet of my choice

2 (a)any visiting HCP must be deloused before gaining entry to my
sterile sanctuary (home),
(b)all hcp will be provided with a suitable hair net/ beard net and full body suit, this must be warn at all times to prevent the hcp from contaminating my environment.

3 all hcp will respect my right to express myself freely in my home
failing to do so will be a negation of my human rights
this includes my right to express and practice “naturism” in my own home

i say have fun with it, make them jump through as many hoops as you can
the alternative is to agree with them using an unscrupulous flawed system of criteria (WCA)
to downgrade my huge ESA50 score

the magnitude of proposed cuntishness atos come at me with is off the scale
they must think i am Oliver twist or something

peace


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 26, 2013)

Frumious B. said:


> Um, I did back it up - have a look at the rest of the para you quoted.


No, you can't make that assertion unless you read and regularly take screenshots of all A-Z pages, and have done since they were first posted on the internet. Have you done that?

You also state that 'no government site has ever provided such information to the public'. Have you consistently and constantly monitored all pages from all government sites since they were first posted on the internet?

The whatdotheyknow.com site, whilst carrying a lot of data, has never claimed to hold all FOI request responses and has only been registered since 2008, for example, and it is entirely possible that some information that had previously been available from e.g. 2000-2004 is now no longer available unless someone has saved a copy in a different format and reposted it. Your other assertion that 'it would have referenced somewhere' would only be true if these blogs and forums had remained online since 2004. Granted, I'd expect it to be referenced somewhere but the more likely scenario is that once an update is received it replaces the earlier version to avoid confusion. People also delete personal files, upgrade computers, lose files, shred paper, remove webpages (especially if fees are increasing) and so on.

Just because something isn't available now doesn't mean it wouldn't have been available then.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 26, 2013)

bob420 I do appreciate your creativity - how are Atos taking it?


----------



## laptop (Sep 26, 2013)

bob420 said:


> peace



I'm certainly not employing you.

You may be proving yourself to be unemployable. 

But I can't help thinking of _Catch-22_...


----------



## treelover (Sep 28, 2013)

Todays memorial to the ATOS dead in Westminister


----------



## J Ed (Sep 28, 2013)

http://www.pontefractandcastleforde...tling-cancer-told-she-s-fit-to-work-1-6086368



> A grandmother battling cancer has been told she is fit to work by a Department for Work and Pensions tribunal – despite the fact she has had part of her lung removed and is undergoing chemotherapy.
> 
> Sylvia Allington, 53, was told on Friday an appeal against a DWP decision to move her to jobseeker’s allowance (JSA) was unsuccessful and she is deemed ‘fit to work’.
> 
> ...


----------



## bob420 (Oct 1, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> bob420 I do appreciate your creativity - how are Atos taking it?


 
i have not heard from atos for a long time, but i am sure in time they will come calling again
they even tried to telephone me when i made it clear in writing that i did not accept calls from them
as i need everything to be logged in writing 
when the atos lady phoned me out of the blue, i just repeated the words " yellow alert yellow alert"
until she hung up, they had not called me since 

atos overall only corresponded with me on 2 or 3 occasions and this was always out of the blue
on horrible paper with some shitty fake looking logo 

most of my correspondence was with the DWP and much of that was sent via my local MP
using emails  
the MP did his job he forwarded all my letters and emails quickly, i do not think he particularly helped or is even in a position to help
but he was another form of creating a record of events and my dealings with the dwp 

everything i mentioned they mostly seem to sidestep and did not directly address 
they kept saying they could see no reason why the wca should not take place
i kept replying saying, you have not met my special requirements
they kept delaying the process and postponing home visits 

finally my GP agreed to write the letter i had asked him to write
after i had made a complaint to the GMC about him
i sent that letter to atos and the dwp and i was awarded benefit without a WCA 
they said i met the criteria for the support group and the wca was not necessary


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 3, 2013)

Kerching. My DLA arrears has been paid into my bank account and I've broken my financial spreadsheet as the columns aren't wide enough.  

Then I've had a letter this morning about my ESA saying that as a result of a change in circumstances I've been put in the support group but they are withholding ~£900 in ESA arrears as they may have made an overpayment. If anything the cheecky bastards have made an underpayment. They owenearly £900 in missed mortgage payments due to their cockup 

No word yet about the result of the WCA though.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 3, 2013)

Good news WouldBe


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 3, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Kerching. My DLA arrears has been paid into my bank account and I've broken my financial spreadsheet as the columns aren't wide enough.
> 
> Then I've had a letter this morning about my ESA saying that as a result of a change in circumstances I've been put in the support group but they are withholding ~£900 in ESA arrears as they may have made an overpayment. If anything the cheecky bastards have made an underpayment. They owenearly £900 in missed mortgage payments due to their cockup
> 
> No word yet about the result of the WCA though.


_May_ have made an overpayment????? Cheeky sods - when are they going to let you know? I'd be asking for a copy of their calculations to show how they arrived at that.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 3, 2013)

J Ed said:


> http://www.pontefractandcastleforde...tling-cancer-told-she-s-fit-to-work-1-6086368



Cunts


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 4, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> _May_ have made an overpayment????? Cheeky sods - when are they going to let you know? I'd be asking for a copy of their calculations to show how they arrived at that.


IIRC When I came of IB and got put on ESA and was classed as 'fit to work' they paid my ESA up to mid May then sent out a letter stating they had stopped my ESA from March so they had made an over payment. However when I then signed on for JSA they wouldn't back date the claim. 

When the skip full of brown envelopes arrive trying to explain what they have done and why then my solicitor wants to see them to make sure I've not been short changed.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 6, 2013)

From june of last year, but as Atos gets a mention in a speech that inspires:


----------



## audiotech (Oct 8, 2013)

epetition with nearly 60,000 who have signed already. It calls for amongst other things a:

'Cumulative Impact Assessment of Welfare Reform, and a New Deal for sick & disabled people based on their needs, abilities and ambitions and an immediate end to the Work Capability Assessment, as voted for by the British Medical Association.'

Sign and share.
http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/43154


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## scifisam (Oct 16, 2013)

I got my DLA! Middle rate care, high rate mobility. :-D This is extra good because I think I'll need to get a taxi to work today as my left foot, hip and knee are conspiring to make life hell - bloody lefties. 

The letter doesn't mention anything about backpayments, but I am due a fair bit. Any ideas how that'll work?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 16, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I got my DLA! Middle rate care, high rate mobility. :-D This is extra good because I think I'll need to get a taxi to work today as my left foot, hip and knee are conspiring to make life hell - bloody lefties.




Congratulations!! I know it was something of an endurance test for you, but it's generally worth it!



> The letter doesn't mention anything about backpayments, but I am due a fair bit. Any ideas how that'll work?



It *should* just be a disbursement to your nominated account (for which you'll have to wait anything from 3-8 weeks  ), but I'd recommend phoning them up and enquiring, simply on the basis of the phone call making them check that everything is "in process", as relying on their system alone...let's just say it's not exactly a fault-free system!


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 16, 2013)

DWP have made a decision on my WCA I've been put in the support group for 1 year. Had to phone them up to find that out though. 
Apparently there has been no overpayment so they have paid me the £870 they were withholding. 
Now just need them to sort out the severe disablement payments.


----------



## laptop (Oct 16, 2013)

Meanwhile: did Andrew Mitchell MP get permission to record an interview?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2013)

laptop said:


> Meanwhile: did Andrew Mitchell MP get permission to record an interview?


Doubt it.


----------



## Celt (Oct 17, 2013)

laptop said:


> Meanwhile: did Andrew Mitchell MP get permission to record an interview?


i wondered about that


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 17, 2013)

Here's some updated information about the 'mandatory reconsideration of decisions before appeal' changes, which will be in effect for all benefit claims from the 28th October, 11 days time:

"If the decision notification is dated before 28 October, the existing process will apply (so there will be an option of moving straight to appeal).

If the decision notification is dated on or after 28 October 2013, the new process will apply and the person will have to request a mandatory reconsideration before they can appeal."

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...le/249902/appeals-process-changes-q-and-a.pdf

Which confirms that the decision date is the main factor affecting an immediate right of appeal or not, and not the date of the appeal submission.


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2013)

"Universal Automation" is launched , just google


----------



## treelover (Oct 18, 2013)

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...-atos-pmqs-video_n_4108677.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Things seem to be hotting up, watch this very moving attack by Denis Skinner on ATOS at PMQ, some Tories even bayed at him afterwards, Cameron was shreweder.

http://news.sky.com/story/1156124/fit-to-work-benefits-test-unfit-for-purpose

CAB just issues a report that 150'000 have complained about ATOS, Sky News had a package on it, not the BBC though


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 18, 2013)

Had my last apointment with A4E yesterday. They weren't having it initially that I didn't need to go in if I was in the support group.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2013)

Benefits Tests: 'People Are Dying Penniless'
More than 150,000 people have complained about ATOS- the company which carries out fit-to-work tests for benefit claimants. Disability campaigner Lisa Egan says the company is 'so wrong, so much of the time.'

Sky interviewer whose brief is pretty poor for what they get paid to do.

http://uk.news.yahoo.com/video/benefits-tests-people-dying-penniless-073340447.html


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## equationgirl (Oct 18, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Had my last apointment with A4E yesterday. They weren't having it initially that I didn't need to go in if I was in the support group.


They could see their commission giving them a two-fingered salute.


----------



## scifisam (Oct 21, 2013)

They paid me! I'm going to be able to clear all my debts!  And then go into more debt to pay for a DELTA course.  And yes, for the sake of my credit rating it is, bizarrely, better to do it that way round.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 21, 2013)

scifisam said:


> They paid me! I'm going to be able to clear all my debts!  And then go into more debt to pay for a DELTA course.  And yes, for the sake of my credit rating it is, bizarrely, better to do it that way round.



Told ya!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2013)

Well done scifisam  fab news x


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 24, 2013)

Had another letter from the DWP. I am entitled to IS / severe disability allowance but they have worked it out to be about half what I did althogh that only goes back to May this year and not when they stopped paying my DLA early last year. 

However they are withholding it as their records show they may have made an overpayment AGAIN that was cleared up 2-3 weeks ago. 

Perhaps I should ask them for the interest on all this money they have withheld for the last 15 month.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2013)

BREAKING NEWS - Move to PIP delayed

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-24680366

Now not happening to everyone from next week, although who it will apply to is not yet clear.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 25, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Had another letter from the DWP. I am entitled to IS / severe disability allowance but they have worked it out to be about half what I did althogh that only goes back to May this year and not when they stopped paying my DLA early last year.
> 
> However they are withholding it as their records show they may have made an overpayment AGAIN that was cleared up 2-3 weeks ago.
> 
> Perhaps I should ask them for the interest on all this money they have withheld for the last 15 month.


You should ask them for interest.

Usual late payment interest rate is Bank of England base rate + 8 points APR.


----------



## buscador (Oct 28, 2013)

Just got my decision letter - straight into the support group. Hurrah! Celebratory gin all round.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 28, 2013)

Nice one - There's a few people on this thread who've ended up getting a decent result. Long may it continue. Well, I don't mean long may ill health continue, I mean favourable decisions.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 28, 2013)

buscador said:


> Just got my decision letter - straight into the support group. Hurrah! Celebratory gin all round.



Congratulations!


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 28, 2013)

scifisam said:


> I got my DLA! Middle rate care, high rate mobility. :-D This is extra good because I think I'll need to get a taxi to work today as my left foot, hip and knee are conspiring to make life hell - bloody lefties.
> 
> The letter doesn't mention anything about backpayments, but I am due a fair bit. Any ideas how that'll work?



Congratulations.  That's lucky, considering mobility's being moved to 20 metres


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 28, 2013)

buscador said:


> Just got my decision letter - straight into the support group. Hurrah! Celebratory gin all round.


Well done, really pleased for you


----------



## JimFoster (Oct 30, 2013)

I'm curious. How often do people get re-assessed for the WCA. I was assessed in June 2012. I was put in the support group (My illnesses include ADHD, Autism and Diabetes). Today I got a letter from ATOS asking me to fill in the WCA questionnaire.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 31, 2013)

JimFoster said:


> I'm curious. How often do people get re-assessed for the WCA.<snip>


How long is a piece of string?  It can be anything between a few weeks after the initial decision was reached and (potentially) a few years.


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## toggle (Oct 31, 2013)

JimFoster said:


> I'm curious. How often do people get re-assessed for the WCA. I was assessed in June 2012. I was put in the support group (My illnesses include ADHD, Autism and Diabetes). Today I got a letter from ATOS asking me to fill in the WCA questionnaire.



as often as they want to tbh.

you should have an entitlement there to a home assessment, at least make them come to you and do it in the less stressful situation of your own home


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## Bakunin (Nov 1, 2013)

toggle said:


> as often as they want to tbh.
> 
> you should have an entitlement there to a home assessment, at least make them come to you and do it in the less stressful situation of your own home



You can also request that an assessment be recorded.


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## Celt (Nov 5, 2013)

I am waiting to go to tribunal on their original decision of WRAG, in the meantime I filled in the ESA50 renewal form and returned it in July,  I phoned in September my form was received but ATOS couldn't tell me any more.  Since then I filled in the form for means tested ESA as my original ESA was for 12 months and runs out on the 21st November,  the DWP phoned me on Friday to say they had dealt with it,  "did I know I would loose the amount of my pension"a letter was being sent out, I do know that, that is why I am appealing their orignal decision as I feel I should have made support group.  I had expected to get the letter today, it hasn't come, no doubt tomorrow.  The stress of all this is just about unbearable, my mental health is deteriorating and my physical condition is no easier to cope with than it was at the  beginning.   Chronic pain is a bitch, chronic pain and anxiety  is too difficult.


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## equationgirl (Nov 5, 2013)

Celt said:


> I am waiting to go to tribunal on their original decision of WRAG, in the meantime I filled in the ESA50 renewal form and returned it in July,  I phoned in September my form was received but ATOS couldn't tell me any more.  Since then I filled in the form for means tested ESA as my original ESA was for 12 months and runs out on the 21st November,  the DWP phoned me on Friday to say they had dealt with it,  "did I know I would loose the amount of my pension"a letter was being sent out, I do know that, that is why I am appealing their orignal decision as I feel I should have made support group.  I had expected to get the letter today, it hasn't come, no doubt tomorrow.  The stress of all this is just about unbearable, my mental health is deteriorating and my physical condition is no easier to cope with than it was at the  beginning.   Chronic pain is a bitch, chronic pain and anxiety  is too difficult.


Sorry to hear this Celt. Hang in there if you can x


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## Celt (Nov 7, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry to hear this Celt. Hang in there if you can x


They must have heard me, I've got my tribunal date, 29th November.


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## yardbird (Nov 8, 2013)

5Live Investigates - Sunday 10th November
That's this Sunday coming at 11.00

About ATOS appeals and more. 
I caught the end of a trailer just now.


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## Celt (Nov 9, 2013)

Celt said:


> They must have heard me, I've got my tribunal date, 29th November.



I am pleased to have it so soon, although it gives me very short time to gather extra evidence,  my advocate has been really unwell with serious physical health problems, he had returned to work this week and I have an appointment with him on Tuesday to go through the appeal papers, I asked him if he felt this would add further stress to his health and he said his brain needs occupying, he hasn't always been the best at keeping appointments and promises, but he has stood by me and he is what I have.

I need to get this tribunal won, but life doesn't always work that way and I need to know how the future will be.

I have a lot to think about.


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## Greebo (Nov 9, 2013)

Celt said:


> <snip>I need to get this tribunal won, but life doesn't always work that way and I need to know how the future will be.
> 
> I have a lot to think about.


Good luck, Celt!


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## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2013)

Best of luck Celt x x


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 12, 2013)

Does anyone know if tribunals can offer anything to help people with anxiety having to attend a hearing?

Can you change your mind and ask to be heard in absence (even though that's not going to help, I realise).

Do tribunals sometimes decide ahead of time if they think there's enough evidence to do away with a hearing?


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## Celt (Nov 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Does anyone know if tribunals can offer anything to help people with anxiety having to attend a hearing?
> 
> Can you change your mind and ask to be heard in absence (even though that's not going to help, I realise).
> 
> Do tribunals sometimes decide ahead of time if they think there's enough evidence to do away with a hearing?


I think that Tribunal only comes after appeall, and for me they said there was not enough evidence atwha appeal, so I am trying to get more evidence, I'm guessing you know that it would be better to be present at Trubunal as the panel may want to ask you questions.

I think what you refer to should be recognised after http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/22/fitness-work-tests-mental-health-unfair 

Do you have anyone who supports you that can go with you? If you don't (I apologise if this is obvious from previous posting) is it worh approaching MIND  and seeing if they have any support available?  I don't think they can decide prior to the tribunal as they only have the paperwork 7 days prior to the tribunal.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 12, 2013)

Celt said:


> I think that Tribunal only comes after appeall, and for me they said there was not enough evidence atwha appeal, so I am trying to get more evidence, I'm guessing you know that it would be better to be present at Trubunal as the panel may want to ask you questions.
> 
> I think what you refer to should be recognised after http://www.theguardian.com/society/2013/may/22/fitness-work-tests-mental-health-unfair
> 
> Do you have anyone who supports you that can go with you? If you don't (I apologise if this is obvious from previous posting) is it worh approaching MIND  and seeing if they have any support available?  I don't think they can decide prior to the tribunal as they only have the paperwork 7 days prior to the tribunal.


Most people fail on appeal: it's just another jobcentre decision maker.

Attendance is of course preferable, but for someone with chronic anxiety this is not easy. Besides I can't help thinking Dominic Littlewood is going to turn up and put me on BBC as a Scrounger and not a Saint somehow (yes it's ridiculous, mental health problems do that to you).

I dopn't have anyone that can attend with me and as a result can't help thinking that, as with ATOS, if you turn up for your appointment, you've already failed. MIND doesn't operate locally. There is no support at all for mental health except in severe cases or if you want a course of CBT.

I'm dreading it really.


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## Celt (Nov 12, 2013)

Awesome Wells do you have a date for the tribunal?  What is the tribunal for?  What decision have they made and what are you hoping the tribunal outcome will be?  

I suffer from anxiety and depression myself and I do understand how daunting it all is, if as you say you have no support share it with Urban and see if we can support you.  I see your a longtime urbanite and like me have a lowish postcount, I looked to see if you had talked about your benefits situation and I don't think you have.  This thread has offered others help in the past, it has gone a little quiet, but there is a lot of urban experience here.


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## toggle (Nov 12, 2013)

There's also the possibility if you give a general area where you are based, then someone might know of support that might be available?

if you contact the tribunal service and ask what adjustments they can make for someone with severe anxiety?

is your gp supportive? would they be able to offer any advice/support/medication for the process?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> There's also the possibility if you give a general area where you are based, then someone might know of support that might be available?
> 
> if you contact the tribunal service and ask what adjustments they can make for someone with severe anxiety?
> 
> is your gp supportive? would they be able to offer any advice/support/medication for the process?


I'm thinking about asking them that. I just spoke to my CAB advisor but she didn't know of anything. Mental health support locally isn't great to say the least. The only advocacy service is miles away (and the buses are astronomically dear) and not particularly good (I went once and wasn't impressed by the racism on display - not to me, but jokes about pigs heads and mosques for some reason as someone brought in a birthday cake in the shape of pepper pig). I'm a bit funny about mentioning where i live online so i won't for now. 

Dealing with the GP is a whole post in itself. They are helpful - in their own way, but they massively and at times wilfully do not understand the system or what is going on. At all. It's also extremely hard to see a regular GP due to changes in the organisation of the surgery. It's really badly run. My GP takes the view that all work is resotarative and healing and doesn't really grasp just how difficult the DWP make things through the Work Programme (which I'm on) and signing on.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 13, 2013)

Tribunals do tend to try to accommodate as much as possible, I would speak to them and see what they can do. Unlike Atos they aren't there to deliberately trip you up so if there is something they can do they will try.


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## Greebo (Nov 13, 2013)

FWIW you can have a person at the appeals tribunal with you for moral support (friend, partner, carer, advocate, or support worker) in addition to the person representing you there.  It's similar to allowing a blind person to bring their guide dog.

If you'd rather not say on urban where you live, the alternative is to put a few keywords for the type of support or help you need into google, along with your county, borough, or town/village.  It's a long trawl for your fingers, but it can be done, if there's anything out there.  My apologies in advance if you've already done that and drawn a blank.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 13, 2013)

Also, if it would help, ask if you can see the room / building etc before your tribunal date. That shouldn't be too difficult to arrange and then the buildings and people won't be so unfamiliar to you.


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## Celt (Nov 13, 2013)

After writing my post above last night I went to bed and panic set in, decided I couldn't do it, wouldn't do it, but today I know I must and I will,


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2013)

i've searched the internet for what ever's available locally and it just isn't much at all. I've spoken to Mind and the, rather useless, CMHT. I'm trying to get a diagnosis for aspergers/possibly ADD and they are supposed to be setting up soemthing locally, but the waiting list is...long. 

I'm not sure where the tribunal will be heard. The default place is Bristol but the CAB tell me that, due to being swamped, it might be somewhere else room permitting. I won't know until they contact me.

Of course if I get into the WRAG I can look forward to going through it all again after a few weeks anyway. They really need to listen to the Mental health (and indeed physical) charities regarding this monstrous mess.


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## toggle (Nov 13, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> Tribunals do tend to try to accommodate as much as possible, I would speak to them and see what they can do. Unlike Atos they aren't there to deliberately trip you up so if there is something they can do they will try.



Can't stress that enough. My experience of attending one with Bakunin  was that they had fuck all time for the DWP and were looking for any good reason to find in favour of claimants. 

They won't want to know much about the experiences you had with the dwp and atos. they know all that stuff that happens, ti's not a forum for you to prove you got shafted. What they want evidence of how you fit the criteria for the benefit you are claiming.  where people gain from being represented, is they have had someone go through their medical evidence and spell out how that fits what part of the criteria. To present a case, an arguement, instead of a ream of evidence the tribunal need to wade through, and might miss because they didn't ask the right question. 

Spell out. what condition/illness/impairment.(proove this) what symptoms you get. You're supposed to describe an average for variable conditions (i think), but also say how bad it can be at it's worst. State how the symptoms match with the benefit criteria. Do this for everything you have evidence of diagnosis for.

then spell out. you take medication (?) - provide proof you are prescribed it.  what side effects does this cause you. State how the side effects match with the claiming criteria.


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## toggle (Nov 13, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> i've searched the internet for what ever's available locally and it just isn't much at all. I've spoken to Mind and the, rather useless, CMHT. I'm trying to get a diagnosis for aspergers/possibly ADD and they are supposed to be setting up soemthing locally, but the waiting list is...long.



as far as I'm aware, you can't use something as evidence unless it's diagnosed. if/when it is, the other half might be able to assist in helping you fit that to the criteria, he's aspie.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2013)

It doesn't matter if you do have it diagnosed, though of course I'm not saying that I DO have those conditions, that's the whole point of getting a diagnosis. Interestingly, a DWP Work Psychologist did a sort-of diagnosis that indiciated a high potential for something like that. Initially she said she could do an actual diagnosis, but that changed into something else. (No, it doesn't make much sense.)

What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.


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## Greebo (Nov 13, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.


This is where it helps if there's somebody you trust, and who knows you (preferably a healthcare professional, their words tend to carry more weight with the DWP), to back up what you claim is your health problem.


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## toggle (Nov 13, 2013)

yep, you need to match the effects to the criteria they work by. 

but there needs to be underlying medical evidence of a condition that can cause those effects. Tribunal wouldn't take bakunin's seizures into account as evidence because there was no associated paperwork


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 13, 2013)

Greebo said:


> This is where it helps if there's somebody you trust, and who knows you (preferably a healthcare professional, their words tend to carry more weight with the DWP), to back up what you claim is your health problem.


Of course. 

But that's not going to be possible in all cases, including mine. That's just how it is.


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## Celt (Nov 13, 2013)

Awesome Wells I was knocked back by the Benefits Advice Shop, CAB, they all said it was impossible to make a late appeal, people here gave me the confidence to try and they have allowed the appeal, whether I win the tribunal is another matter but one step at a time (for me)  if you don't fit into the descriptors there is always the "exceptional circumstances", a friend of mine who has allergies went to tribunal and won on this rule.

I found the waiting the most difficult part, and I'm aware that win or loose, I may be called the next week to start the process again as my renewal form has been with ATOS since July.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2013)

toggle said:


> yep, you need to match the effects to the criteria they work by.
> 
> but there needs to be underlying medical evidence of a condition that can cause those effects. Tribunal wouldn't take bakunin's seizures into account as evidence because there was no associated paperwork


How could there be nothing supporting something as serious as a seizure?


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2013)

Celt said:


> Awesome Wells I was knocked back by the Benefits Advice Shop, CAB, they all said it was impossible to make a late appeal, people here gave me the confidence to try and they have allowed the appeal, whether I win the tribunal is another matter but one step at a time (for me)  if you don't fit into the descriptors there is always the "exceptional circumstances", a friend of mine who has allergies went to tribunal and won on this rule.
> 
> I found the waiting the most difficult part, and I'm aware that win or loose, I may be called the next week to start the process again as my renewal form has been with ATOS since July.


Indeed and i appreciate ll the advice. 

That said, anxiety is a bitch!


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> It doesn't matter if you do have it diagnosed, though of course I'm not saying that I DO have those conditions, that's the whole point of getting a diagnosis. Interestingly, a DWP Work Psychologist did a sort-of diagnosis that indiciated a high potential for something like that. Initially she said she could do an actual diagnosis, but that changed into something else. (No, it doesn't make much sense.)
> 
> What matters is how you score on the descriptors. Just saying 'i have xyz' means nothing to the DWP. What they want to know is how it affects you in order to score 15 points. For mental health this is uniquely problematic: you can see someone might have difficulty walking if they have no legs. You, obviously, can't see how somone feels or copes with a situation. At best you might see them lose their shit and start climbing the walls. Perhaps that's what they want.



TBF, it's the same for *any* so-called "invisible illness/disability".  One of my many health problems is that I have moderately-severe problems walking, and use sticks, but because I'm not in a wheelchair, my disability isn't taken seriously (because obviously if it was *that* severe, I wouldn't be able to walk at all, according to most bar-room pundits!).  Because I have a neurologically-based memory problem, that's not taken seriously.  because I have a not particularly well-understood illness syndrome, *that* isn't taken seriously.
Of course, when I say "not taken seriously", I actually mean (in terms of the DWP) "gets ignored until I provide evidence of diagnosis and of long-term treatment.
It's not only people with MH issues that are in the firing line, but it's fair to say that they're seen as easy cannon fodder by the DWP and ATOS.


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> TBF, it's the same for *any* so-called "invisible illness/disability".  One of my many health problems is that I have moderately-severe problems walking, and use sticks, but because I'm not in a wheelchair, my disability isn't taken seriously (because obviously if it was *that* severe, I wouldn't be able to walk at all, according to most bar-room pundits!).  Because I have a neurologically-based memory problem, that's not taken seriously.  because I have a not particularly well-understood illness syndrome, *that* isn't taken seriously.
> Of course, when I say "not taken seriously", I actually mean (in terms of the DWP) "gets ignored until I provide evidence of diagnosis and of long-term treatment.
> It's not only people with MH issues that are in the firing line, but it's fair to say that they're seen as easy cannon fodder by the DWP and ATOS.


Of course.

There are many conditions that the WCA simply cannot deal with at all. When I sat down with the CAB to talk about appealing and tribunals the advisor brought out a list of descriptors and we worked through them. This was more of a medical, ironically, than the WCA. Even a GP won't operate like this and I'm sure many would argue that doing so is somehow 'playing the system'. But the WCA is a complete joke. To call it a medical test is to misrepresent it utterly. My assessor was a perfectly polite and pelasant woman and,because i knew what to expect and to expect to fail, I was reasonably comfortable during the appointment. The receptionist was entirely different and it was pure luck I didn't have to sit in that waiting room (and fortunately it was half empty otherwise I would have struggled) for as long as she threatened I'd have to! The waiting room that really wasn't equippped for people that might have problems sitting/standing (someone was nearly made to go back home because of it, having just struggled all the way in).

This whole area is a mess. They argue that everyone could do something and, obvious cases notwithstanding, in an ideal world, that _might_ conceivably be true. But it doesn't begin to address how nor deal with the issues within a labour market geared towards the bosses and the fatcats in charge. For example I might say that I _could _work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!


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## Greebo (Nov 14, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>For example I might say that I _could _work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!


Are you sure?  DLA and PIP can be paid regardless of whether you're in work or not, but IB and ESA are supposed to be payable mainly while you're completely unable to work (and therefore out of work) because of a longterm sickness or disability, or temporarily while you try work which might be suitable for you after being longterm sick.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 14, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Of course.
> 
> There are many conditions that the WCA simply cannot deal with at all. When I sat down with the CAB to talk about appealing and tribunals the advisor brought out a list of descriptors and we worked through them. This was more of a medical, ironically, than the WCA. Even a GP won't operate like this and I'm sure many would argue that doing so is somehow 'playing the system'.



Another issue of which no account is taken, is that you and I see our GPs, and indeed our consultants, only when we're actually fit to do so.  My own GP said she had made a point of mentioning that she only ever saw me when I was well enough to attend the surgery on the electronic form the DWP sent her.  As I said to her "you see me, but you don't know that it's taken me 40 minutes to walk 400 metres to the surgery, that it'll take me another 40 minutes to walk home, and that I'll be having painful muscle spasms and tissue damage/inflammation from the exertion.  What you know is that you've had to treat me for those things".



> But the WCA is a complete joke. To call it a medical test is to misrepresent it utterly. My assessor was a perfectly polite and pelasant woman and,because i knew what to expect and to expect to fail, I was reasonably comfortable during the appointment. The receptionist was entirely different and it was pure luck I didn't have to sit in that waiting room (and fortunately it was half empty otherwise I would have struggled) for as long as she threatened I'd have to! The waiting room that really wasn't equippped for people that might have problems sitting/standing (someone was nearly made to go back home because of it, having just struggled all the way in).



The old IB medicals were much the same, in terms of the staff and their attitude.  I was fortunate enough that my last IB medical was with a doctor who was so disgusted that I'd been called in after a year (his words were "there's no easy way to say this, but your condition is never going to improve enough that you need yearly medicals") that he made a specific note on my records that I shouldn't be examined again "for an indefinite period".



> This whole area is a mess. They argue that everyone could do something and, obvious cases notwithstanding, in an ideal world, that _might_ conceivably be true. But it doesn't begin to address how nor deal with the issues within a labour market geared towards the bosses and the fatcats in charge. For example I might say that I _could _work from home, but in doing so I completely invalidate my claim for ESA - even though it isn't even meant to be an out of work benefit!



Well, I'm sure I *could* do *something*, in fact I know I can.  Unfortunately, I've never been able to find an employer who'd be happy with an employee that can only work on their own terms - my hours when I can manage them, not what the employer deems necessary!

As for ESA's status, it is and isn't an "out of work benefit", in that you need to be long-term sick and to be on SSP when your claim started for contributory ESA, but it's a benefit claimed by quite a few unemployed people.  it's a real cart and horse issue!


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 14, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Are you sure?  DLA and PIP can be paid regardless of whether you're in work or not, but IB and ESA are supposed to be payable mainly while you're completely unable to work (and therefore out of work) because of a longterm sickness or disability, or temporarily while you try work which might be suitable for you after being longterm sick.



From the link (the DWP website - bolding mine):

If you’re ill or disabled, Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) offers you:


financial support if you’re unable to work
*personalised help so that you can work if you’re able to*
You can apply for ESA if you’re *employed, self-employed* or unemployed.


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## toggle (Nov 14, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> How could there be nothing supporting something as serious as a seizure?


long story. 

he's a dufus, his doctor at the time was a pratt, and he had other stuff to deal with as a priority. and as they were absence seizures, he wasn't aware of how frequent they were - he told the tribunal he had them about weekly, i corrected him to up to half a dozen a day. he's seen specialists and resolved the stress that was causing them since. but if we go through this again, the specialists letters can be part of the papertrail. 



ViolentPanda said:


> Well, I'm sure I *could* do *something*, in fact I know I can.  Unfortunately, I've never been able to find an employer who'd be happy with an employee that can only work on their own terms - my hours when I can manage them, not what the employer deems necessary!



th\nkfully himself has something he can do as self employed, which earns him enough that we can cope.


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## geminisnake (Nov 14, 2013)

I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. They HAVE to have a report from your doctor??  My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?


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## Celt (Nov 15, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. They HAVE to have a report from your doctor??  My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
> Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?


From what I remember geminisnake your misunderstanding could be a symptom or as a result of the condition which you are going to tribunal about, and when you do get to tribunal you should try and tell the tribunal panel that, I understand the format of the tribunal you will be asked if there is anything you want to ask/say?


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## Bakunin (Nov 17, 2013)

Intersting news courtesy of the Disability News Service:

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/11/atos-move-leaves-dla-decision-makers-guessing/


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## equationgirl (Nov 17, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Intersting news courtesy of the Disability News Service:
> 
> http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/11/atos-move-leaves-dla-decision-makers-guessing/


Most interesting, Bakunin most interesting indeed.

Ties in with the website guidance being rewritten too.


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 18, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> I think I haven't understood the tribunal thing. *They HAVE to have a report from your doctor??*  My tribunal was supposed to be yesterday but it's been adjourned because my car window fecked up 5 minutes from home and I couldn't drive 17 miles with no window, or leave my car in a car park while I went to the tribunal. But they sent a form for me to fill in to get a GP report. I thought you only needed that for additional info?
> Does my misunderstanding work in my favour?



They don't. I don't know about how it'll go for you (in your favour/not in your favour), but the tribunal just goes off the evidence you've supplied them with & how it applies to social security law. Which is better than every preceding stage of the appeal gig.
FWIW, I won my tribunal just on evidence I'd provided - No backing up evidence from doctors or anything. And I didn't even attend my tribunal - Coz I thought there was no point, I thought it was a lost cause. And, TBF, choosing not to attend your appeal does statistically reduce your chances of winning but I still won mine - You can win yours. 

Honest to god, do it, and I wish you all the support in the world.


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## Celt (Nov 18, 2013)

anxiety is super high at the moment, I have nearly all the evidence, which I need to post thursday at the latest and then I'm not sure how I keep sane for the next 7 days.	I am waiting for the unreliable guy to produce statement, its not been nice reading sstuff about myself, but trying to look to the future, wake up every morning with the inner voice telling me I'm a fraud and should just accept how it is.

It would be nice to breathe in and breathe out fully occasionaly, Pulled a muscle in my back which is making me walk really awkwardly, have several abscesses and rather high blood sugar, but I'm smiling, well kind of.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 19, 2013)

The friend I think I mentioned about a year ago has had his papers for re-assessment.



Found this while doing a bit of research - Swansea Social Inclusion Unit's guide to completing the ESA 50.  (here - opens as PDF) - looks like it might be useful.


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## equationgirl (Nov 19, 2013)

Celt said:


> anxiety is super high at the moment, I have nearly all the evidence, which I need to post thursday at the latest and then I'm not sure how I keep sane for the next 7 days.	I am waiting for the unreliable guy to produce statement, its not been nice reading sstuff about myself, but trying to look to the future, wake up every morning with the inner voice telling me I'm a fraud and should just accept how it is.
> 
> It would be nice to breathe in and breathe out fully occasionaly, Pulled a muscle in my back which is making me walk really awkwardly, have several abscesses and rather high blood sugar, but I'm smiling, well kind of.


You are not a fraud at all, Celt x


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## Frances Lengel (Nov 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> You are not a fraud at all, Celt x



No, you're not darl. Really you're not.


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## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2013)

More interesting news on DWP claims decision-making in the post-ATOS era:

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/civil-servants-told-judge-whether-2810718#ixzz2l8rZkAOr

Yes, when assessing complicated, serious and often multiple health issues and disabilities now that ATOS have legged it, what are DWP decision-makers advised to do in a leaked DWP memo?

GOOGLE THEM.


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## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> More interesting news on DWP claims decision-making in the post-ATOS era:
> 
> http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/civil-servants-told-judge-whether-2810718#ixzz2l8rZkAOr
> 
> ...


Fucks sake, fucking cunting wankers at the DWP have no fucking idea about disability assessment.

I have two chronic conditions, both of which are currently stable. If they both start to become unstable, who the fuck is going to understand the combined effects of Stage 2/3 Chronic Kidney Disease and spinal arthritis in 4 vertebrae with attendent nerve damage?


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Fucks sake, fucking cunting wankers at the DWP have no fucking idea about disability assessment.
> 
> I have two chronic conditions, both of which are currently stable. If they both start to become unstable, who the fuck is going to understand the combined effects of Stage 2/3 Chronic Kidney Disease and spinal arthritis in 4 vertebrae with attendent nerve damage?



Just a thought, but what are the statutory legal requirements for a proper medical assessment of benefit claims?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2013)




----------



## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Just a thought, but what are the statutory legal requirements for a proper medical assessment of benefit claims?


Don't know offhand, but esteemed colleague Mr ViolentPanda might know. Bet there's an act making it's way quietly through parliament changing things as we speak though.

Cynical, moi?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Just a thought, but what are the statutory legal requirements for a proper medical assessment of benefit claims?


Are there any? I suppose there must - o should be.

I suspect they need only have a 'healthcare professional' undertake the test. We all know that doesn't specifically mean doctor trained in the relevant fields as per the patient.


----------



## Bakunin (Nov 20, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Are there any? I suppose there must - o should be.
> 
> I suspect they need only have a 'healthcare professional' undertake the test. We all know that doesn't specifically mean doctor trained in the relevant fields as per the patient.



That's just it. ATOS aren't even assessing people any more unless they're terminally ill. They've stepped aside from doing the assessments except for the terminally ill. The leaked internal memo says that, in the absence of an ATOS assessment they're to rely on GP reports, consultant's reports etc and, if need be, to simply Google a claimant's listed medical problems and/or disabilities and decide their claim on that basis.

Claimants who can't get supporting evidence could well find their claim decided by the office junior with a search engine and no medical knowledge other than what Google tells them.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 20, 2013)

To call the WCA a medical test of any kind is misleading. It isn't remotely medical in any way shape or form. 

I really don't get why the PCS don't strike over issues like this.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 20, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>I really don't get why the PCS don't strike over issues like this.


Fear, pure and simple.  Not fear of being sacked immediately, but fear of losing any chance of promotion, and fear of being first on the list when it comes to the next round of redundancies and restructuring.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 20, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> That's just it. ATOS aren't even assessing people any more unless they're terminally ill. They've stepped aside from doing the assessments except for the terminally ill. The leaked internal memo says that, in the absence of an ATOS assessment they're to rely on GP reports, consultant's reports etc and, if need be, to simply Google a claimant's listed medical problems and/or disabilities and decide their claim on that basis.
> 
> Claimants who can't get supporting evidence could well find their claim decided by the office junior with a search engine and no medical knowledge other than what Google tells them.



If you're referring to the WCA, the standard of assessment/who the assessment will be conducted by seems to vary for different conditions, although we know that, for example, some neuro conditions have been revised (downward) so that a doctor is no longer required to assess a person with that condition, and a rehabilitation nurse or OT can assess that person instead.  
A cynic might say that these revisions are strangely-timed, and that they seem to originate at around the point the BMA took against the WCA, and doctors started withdrawing their service from ATOS (part of the thing about piecework and being effectively self-employed is that there's no pesky 3 month or even 1 month notice period!).  Not me though, I'm no cynic!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 20, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Fear, pure and simple.  Not fear of being sacked immediately, but fear of losing any chance of promotion, and fear of being first on the list when it comes to the next round of redundancies and restructuring.



This, absolutely.  PCS members in DWP depts have already lost tens of thousands of members to redundancy in the last 3 and a half years, with more to come.  With the employment situation as it is (despite Gideon's boasts otherwise), it's a case of "batten down the hatches" rather than "let's strike".


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 20, 2013)

Greebo said:


> Fear, pure and simple.  Not fear of being sacked immediately, but fear of losing any chance of promotion, and fear of being first on the list when it comes to the next round of redundancies and restructuring.


Fair point.

Unfortunately if we can't all get together across the board in opposition to this government, I don't think we're going to stop them short of rioting.


----------



## existentialist (Nov 20, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> This, absolutely.  PCS members in DWP depts have already lost tens of thousands of members to redundancy in the last 3 and a half years, with more to come.  With the employment situation as it is (despite Gideon's boasts otherwise), it's a case of "batten down the hatches" rather than "let's strike".


And that management by fear approach is core to the Thatcherite Tory dogma that this lot go in for, so it's no accident: "keep unemployment high and the peons scared"


----------



## Celt (Nov 20, 2013)

Sent evidence special delivery to the Tribunal service so that they have it 7 days before my tribunal which is the 29th, Black Friday, the two bear no relation to each other I know, but it amuses me.

Finished the council tax benefit form and will deliver it to them tomorrow, so think I have done everything I can do at the moment.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> To call the WCA a medical test of any kind is misleading. It isn't remotely medical in any way shape or form.
> 
> I really don't get why the PCS don't strike over issues like this.


Which is why they call them assessments, done by healthcare professionals (usually not doctors except in specific cases, except they're moving the goalposts on that one as well).


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 21, 2013)

They don't even assess. You turn up, tell them some stuff and most of it is ignored either through lack of evidence or because they don't believe you: "mental health problems? you seem fine to me". It's that kind of nonsense. We all know this of course, but it's just incredible how useless it is. Even when conducted by a perfectly polite individual, as mine was (unlike some of the horror stories reported). It was no more a medical or an asessment than afternoon tea.


----------



## monsterbunny (Nov 22, 2013)

I have a range of health complaints; one is now an end-stage condition (two failed treatments) and I'm awaiting inclusion on a suitable clinical drugs trial which, if successful, might qualify me for a transplant procedure.

For two years I have been in the 'support group' for contributory ESA.  I am not entitled to any non-contributory benefits.  Now I've received the dreaded ESA50 (limited capability for work questionnaire).  

Having read this thread and picked up some useful pointers I still recognise that the outcome is likely to be unfavourable. Unsurprisingly I'm not looking forward to a fight with Atos and the DWP, so can anyone offer me any advice before I complete this form?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 22, 2013)

monsterbunny said:


> I have a range of health complaints; one is now an end-stage condition (two failed treatments) and I'm awaiting inclusion on a suitable clinical drugs trial which, if successful, might qualify me for a transplant procedure.
> 
> For two years I have been in the 'support group' for contributory ESA.  I am not entitled to any non-contributory benefits.  Now I've received the dreaded ESA50 (limited capability for work questionnaire).
> 
> Having read this thread and picked up some useful pointers I still recognise that the outcome is likely to be unfavourable. Unsurprisingly I'm not looking forward to a fight with Atos and the DWP, so can anyone offer me any advice before I complete this form?



My advice is "get professional help to fill the forms in".
If that isn't possible, PM me an e-mail adress of yours, so that I can send you .pdfs of the Benefits & Work guides to filling in the ESA50.  They're the single best and most comprehensive guide I've found on how to frame your answers.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Nov 22, 2013)

Really worried about my friend who got a letter on Monday to come in today for a PIP interview. He's deaf and only has a little hearing in one ear. Enough to hear a loud bang to make him jump. He also has slight learning difficulties that are not obvious on first meeting. He's quite canny otherwise so won't be lip reading or saying much that isn't incomprehensible but still he hardly has money enough to live on as it is and zero job prospects. What do I do to help him appeal if it all goes tits up? I'm going round to see him next week. I've been thinking he might be missing some benefits already as his other deaf friends seem much better off than him. I can afford to take him shopping for food every so often but I'm worried he'll end up homeless :-(


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 23, 2013)

19sixtysix said:


> Really worried about my friend who got a letter on Monday to come in today for a PIP interview. He's deaf and only has a little hearing in one ear. Enough to hear a loud bang to make him jump. He also has slight learning difficulties that are not obvious on first meeting. He's quite canny otherwise so won't be lip reading or saying much that isn't incomprehensible but still he hardly has money enough to live on as it is and zero job prospects. What do I do to help him appeal if it all goes tits up? I'm going round to see him next week. I've been thinking he might be missing some benefits already as his other deaf friends seem much better off than him. I can afford to take him shopping for food every so often but I'm worried he'll end up homeless :-(



If he's in receipt of Housing Benefit (and Council Tax Benefit) that shouldn't be a problem, even if he gets bumped off of DLA/PIP.  DLA isn't taken into account with regard to HB and CTB calculations, as it's a supplement to offset the extra costs of disability.  The hard and fast rule with anything like this, though, is to seek professional representation (i.e. CAB or local Law Centre) as soon as possible if at all possible.

Good strategy for him to emphasise his communication difficulties, by the way.

If his PIP claim is knocked back, there are several things you need to do immediately.

1) Request that the decision be reviewed and an appeal set in motion.
2) Seek professional representation (as above).
3 Request from the DWP a full copy of the claimant's case file pertaining to the PIP decision. If you need to do this, you need a "letter of authority" from your friend, with his signature on it, stating that you're his representative in this matter (A CAB or Law Centre would request he sign one too).

As for your friend's entitlements, usually the best way to establish these is (again) the CAB or other professional advocacy organisations (I'm aware that what used to be the RNID sucks walrus cock).


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 23, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> They don't even assess. You turn up, tell them some stuff and most of it is ignored either through lack of evidence or because they don't believe you: "*mental health problems? you seem fine to me*". It's that kind of nonsense. We all know this of course, but it's just incredible how useless it is. Even when conducted by a perfectly polite individual, as mine was (unlike some of the horror stories reported). It was no more a medical or an asessment than afternoon tea.



The letter I got explaining the reasons for decision (not entitld to ESA) pretty much said (using a few more words though) - He looked alright to me. Plus some other bullshit using the fact I'd filled in the form myself against me (so there's a tip - If possible, get someone else to fill in your form. Even if you're ok with form-filling-in. Write it all down on a bit of paper, then get whoever's doing it to just copy it out). And then some other bullshit about the person with me offering no supporting evidence - She was only there to hold my hand, she wasn't asked to provide supporting evidence, nor was she qualified.   

I might as well not have been at the medical - The reasons the healthcare professional gave for knocking me back weren't even relevent to what he'd asked me about & the answers I gave.


----------



## Celt (Nov 27, 2013)

Heading towards Tribunal Friday, will have someone with me, but basically speaking for myself.   There are some things I need to check up on and if anyone here can help me find the relevant facts I'd appreciate it.

I got ESA at WRAG, I am appealing to be placed in support group, I got 15 points  9 from walking and mobilising, 6 from sitting and moving, these were awarded after I earned 0 points from the medical, awarded by a telephone call from the DWP to me, asking for further info about these.

Do I need to have 15 points in one descriptor to make support group, the information my accompanying person has gleaned, it doesn't matter if you make 40 points from otheer descriptors, to make support group one descriptor must give 15 points,  Is this so.

ViolentPanda, Greebo, equationgirl anyone?  I have research I need to do on other points and will return later, thanks anyone who can advise


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## Greebo (Nov 27, 2013)

Not sure, have called VP back online...


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 27, 2013)

Celt said:


> Heading towards Tribunal Friday, will have someone with me, but basically speaking for myself.   There are some things I need to check up on and if anyone here can help me find the relevant facts I'd appreciate it.
> 
> I got ESA at WRAG, I am appealing to be placed in support group, I got 15 points  9 from walking and mobilising, 6 from sitting and moving, these were awarded after I earned 0 points from the medical, awarded by a telephone call from the DWP to me, asking for further info about these.
> 
> ...



Couple of things:

a) IIRC you have some problems with stress/anxiety/depression that you were given no consideration for with regard to the decision made - follow this up.
b) Yes, automatic entry into the support group *is* predicated on scoring a 15 for any of the physical health or mental health assessment criteria, but an appeal *should* look at whether the original assessment and/or the review made the right decisions in the first place, based on submitted evidence (hence my point above).


----------



## Celt (Nov 27, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Couple of things:
> 
> a) IIRC you have some problems with stress/anxiety/depression that you were given no consideration for with regard to the decision made - follow this up.
> b) Yes, automatic entry into the support group *is* predicated on scoring a 15 for any of the physical health or mental health assessment criteria, but an appeal *should* look at whether the original assessment and/or the review made the right decisions in the first place, based on submitted evidence (hence my point above).



I have submitted evidence from:-
			i.  the pain clinic practitioner, re the damaged sciatic nerve, its impact on my life and the fact it is not going to get better.
			2. CPN, regarding my mental health,  the impact of my physical condition on my mental health, and the stress the benefits process has caused and expected treatment.
			3..  Director of Services at MIND local association,
			4.  GP's letter, confirming medical facts, treatment and prognosis

			5. Statement from a friend outlining how life is for me.

OK, I understand the need to talk about my mental health, thanks.

I don't think that I can get 15 points on any ! of the descriptors in themselves,  so can they still give me support group for getting say 6 points each on three of the physical descriptors and 6 points on two of the mental health descriptors?

I met with the director of services and the business/personel manager from the local MIND, I became a trustee for them a year ago, to discuss what needed to be said at tribunal, they told me how my health problems both physical and mental impacted on my work as a Trustee, and the difficulties they found working with me,it wasn't accusatory they were telling me to help me focus on what I needed to say, but I found it quite difficult to hear, its the one thing I thought I was succeeding at. They describe my lack of being able to stick to a train of thought, problems I have with communicating,


----------



## Celt (Nov 28, 2013)

Searching the benefits and work forum, I don't think it has to be 15 points from one descriptor, 
this to someone looking to move from WRAG to support group.



> You need to be as sure as possible that your ESA award is safe and that you easily score 15 points among the descriptors



Can't post on that at the moment, I think I should go to bed and try and make sense of it tomorrow, when hopefully pain will be less and brain might work better.


----------



## Celt (Nov 28, 2013)

Brain is definitely mush now, having trouble understanding the limited capability for work related activity.

Bed now I think


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## captainmission (Nov 28, 2013)

Celt said:


> Searching the benefits and work forum, I don't think it has to be 15 points from one descriptor,
> this to someone looking to move from WRAG to support group.
> 
> 
> ...



You can find the discriptors for the support group here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531877/schedule/3

You need to meet at least one of those discriptors to go in the support group. Some of these as the same as having 15 points in the WRAG, however there are additional discriptors relating to eat and drinking.



> You need to be as sure as possible that your ESA award is safe and that you easily score 15 points among the descriptors



What this mean is that if you that you go to tribunal after being place in the WRAG the tribunal will look at the award in its entirety, and could remove your entilement to ESA all together if it considers you to havescore less than 15 points.

Can i ask do you get DLA at higher rate mobility? have you applied?


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## Celt (Nov 28, 2013)

captainmission said:


> You can find the discriptors for the support group here - http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukdsi/2013/9780111531877/schedule/3
> 
> You need to meet at least one of those discriptors to go in the support group. Some of these as the same as having 15 points in the WRAG, however there are additional discriptors relating to eat and drinking.
> 
> ...



Yes I have mobility at High Rate.

When you say "meet the dscriptor" do you mean have 15 points in one descriptor?


I was unable to get onto the benefits and work forum today, my payment went awry, and I only got the message about that late this evening, Tribunal is tomorrow afternoon so its to late now, going to have to trust the universe.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 28, 2013)

Holding a good thought for you tomorrow Celt


----------



## 19sixtysix (Nov 28, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> If he's in receipt of Housing Benefit (and Council Tax Benefit) that shouldn't be a problem, even if he gets bumped off of DLA/PIP.  DLA isn't taken into account with regard to HB and CTB calculations, as it's a supplement to offset the extra costs of disability.  The hard and fast rule with anything like this, though, is to seek professional representation (i.e. CAB or local Law Centre) as soon as possible if at all possible.
> 
> Good strategy for him to emphasise his communication difficulties, by the way.
> 
> ...



Thanks. He may at time not understand stuff but he took himself off to his local authority case worker who's arranged an interpreter for sign language and the interview is now at a later date. I've been trying to get him to sort out his freedom pass so he may have a medical statement as well if they are required later. His paperwork is a bit of a mess so not sure if he'll have much other evidence to take with him from consultants etc. I do wonder if this has all worked against him in the past as most of his deaf friend seem better off than he is.


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## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2013)

Best of luck Celt I'll be thinking of you x


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## captainmission (Nov 29, 2013)

Celt said:


> Yes I have mobility at High Rate.
> 
> When you say "meet the dscriptor" do you mean have 15 points in one descriptor?
> 
> ...



Meeting the descriptor means whether any of the points in the link I posted apply to you. Some of them, like the mobility descriptor, are the same as scoring fifteen points for mobility in limited capability for work assessment. It doesn't matter if atos/dwp have previously awarded only 9 points; the tribunal are going to look at your evidence and decide whether any of those critrea apply to you.

The fact that you have higher rate mobility DLA may be relevant to your case. The most common reason for awarding higher rate mobility is because a person is considered virtually unable to walk. The DWP will consider some one unable to walk 50m as virtually unable to walk. The ESA desriptor is slightly different - it's mobilise, not walk. So they would also look at whether it'd be reasonable for a person to use a manual wheel chair to cover that distance. However if you where awarded higher rate mobility on the basis of being virtually unable to walk that does mean at some point in the past the dwp considered you to be unable to walk 50m. That won't be a decisive factor on a tribunal, they may consider the dwp was mistaken in its dla assessment or a more recent assessment was more accurate. But it can be some thing to point out.


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## Celt (Nov 29, 2013)

Ah yes that makes sense thanks


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## Celt (Nov 29, 2013)

I won, backdated support group and for a further 12 months!!

Thank you for your support.


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## captainmission (Nov 29, 2013)

congratulations


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## Awesome Wells (Nov 29, 2013)

well done.

full support group is probably the only way to go with the possibility of the WRAG disappearing.

May I ask, if you know, how many points they awarded you in the end?


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## Celt (Nov 29, 2013)

Celt said:


> I won, backdated support group and for a further 12 months!!
> 
> Thank you for your support.


They asked a lot of questions, and took about 15 minutes to call me back in for their decision,  but made it as easy as they could telling me I had won and then explaining their decision, which was that they granted it under rule 35, the exceptional circumstances rule, as I didn't fully meet any of the descriptors

Awesome Wells,  I am not sure, but I think I don't have any more points, to be honest I haven't opened the document they  gave me explaining their decision, its in a sealed envelope and I have started the evening by opening a bottle of wine.

They said they were giving it me for the backdated year and a further year as in the evidence from the CMHT, they had said they were hoping to be able to help me improve my mental health situation.

I have in the back of my head a bit of a concern that as I didn't meet the mobility descriptor fully (I had 9 points) that they may call me for review of DLA, which I have a lifetime award for now, but  that is just a tiny niggle.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 29, 2013)

well done Celt that's such brilliant news 

Enjoy the wine, put the letter aside and read it in a few days.

I'm so pleased for you.


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## Greebo (Nov 29, 2013)

Celt said:


> I won, backdated support group and for a further 12 months!!<snip>


*YES!  *


----------



## toggle (Nov 29, 2013)

Celt said:


> I won, backdated support group and for a further 12 months!!
> 
> Thank you for your support.



fantastic.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> I won, backdated support group and for a further 12 months!!
> 
> Thank you for your support.



Come _on!!!!_


----------



## Awesome Wells (Nov 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> They asked a lot of questions, and took about 15 minutes to call me back in for their decision,  but made it as easy as they could telling me I had won and then explaining their decision, which was that they granted it under rule 35, the exceptional circumstances rule, as I didn't fully meet any of the descriptors
> 
> Awesome Wells,  I am not sure, but I think I don't have any more points, to be honest I haven't opened the document they  gave me explaining their decision, its in a sealed envelope and I have started the evening by opening a bottle of wine.
> 
> ...



Interesting...people can get into the support group even without getting 15 points. My CAB advisor is convinced that without the points (ie support for enough descriptors) I don't stand a chance.

Well done at any rate. A victory for one is a victory for all.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 30, 2013)

Congrats Celt 

I'm still having problems with mine despite winning.
DWP are still withholding >£1K due to a possible overpayment.
Still heard nothing about severe disability payments while I was on JSA.
I've just had another letter from A4E for a mandatory appointment about getting me back to work. They were shown a letter last time I went in to say I was in the support group. 
Maybe I need to send them a letter threatening legal action for harassment and fraud if they carry on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2013)

Celt said:


> They asked a lot of questions, and took about 15 minutes to call me back in for their decision,  but made it as easy as they could telling me I had won and then explaining their decision, which was that they granted it under rule 35, the exceptional circumstances rule, as I didn't fully meet any of the descriptors
> 
> Awesome Wells,  I am not sure, but I think I don't have any more points, to be honest I haven't opened the document they  gave me explaining their decision, its in a sealed envelope and I have started the evening by opening a bottle of wine.
> 
> ...



The criteria under which you were awarded your DLA mobility component, read against the descriptors on the ESA form, shouldn't compromise your DLA. To get 9 pts you need to (taken from "Benefits & Work"s guide:

(b) Cannot mount or descend two steps unaided by another person even with the support of
a handrail. *9 points*
(c) Cannot either
(i) mobilise more than 100 meters on level ground without stopping in order to avoid
significant discomfort or exhaustion
or
(ii) repeatedly mobilise 100 meters within a reasonable timescale because of significant
discomfort or exhaustion. *9 points*

which, given you don't fall under the new 20 metres criteria, is good enough, as DLA is/was judged on repeatability, not on the spurious crap that ESA is based on.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> Congrats Celt
> 
> I'm still having problems with mine despite winning.
> DWP are still withholding >£1K due to a possible overpayment.
> ...


Sorry to hear that WouldBe - can your solicitor write to the A4e office and ask them to leave you alone?


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## Celt (Dec 1, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Interesting...people can get into the support group even without getting 15 points. My CAB advisor is convinced that without the points (ie support for enough descriptors) I don't stand a chance.
> 
> Well done at any rate. A victory for one is a victory for all.



I am going to write to the various agencies who told me I had no grounds or that I was out of time,  etc, there is a list of them,

but no it isn't true, but I think the rule 35(?) exceptional circumstances is there for those of us who don't fit in boxes, I have learnt a lot through this, and for the first time in a long time  feel as  the lead weight (metaphorical) that held my mood down is gone and I have some chance of being usefull, I am considering attempting to sue,or some suitable action, them for damages, I don't want money, but they cannot be allowed to go on doing this to people.

Interestingly last night I woke up falling, assumed it was my fairly regular falling out of bed, but no I had been sleep walking and fell in quite a narrow bit between my sofa and kitchen door, i was really lucky not to hit my head and getting up was really difficult. i l landed on my hip and am not injured but am going to have some great bruises.


WouldBe said:


> Congrats Celt
> 
> I'm still having problems with mine despite winning.
> DWP are still withholding >£1K due to a possible overpayment.
> ...



That doesn't sound like a bad idea, do you have anyone acting for you, ?  Advocacy or similar,?


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## WouldBe (Dec 1, 2013)

Celt said:


> That doesn't sound like a bad idea, do you have anyone acting for you, ?  Advocacy or similar,?


I have a solicitor acting for me (at DLA tribunal). I'll have to contact him. 

Still not got last years Christmas 'bonus' or cold weather payments yet either.


----------



## Celt (Dec 1, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> I have a solicitor acting for me (at DLA tribunal). I'll have to contact him.
> 
> Still not got last years Christmas 'bonus' or cold weather payments yet either.



I know I had a letter telling me I would get the christmas bonus this year, but that was because I had gone onto income based esa, and as I am now continuing the contribution based I won't get it, and thats fine.

I think you need to get your solicitor to chase up the outstanding money, they seem to have treated you very badly.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 1, 2013)

My gp is no help at all. Eventually entually he seemed to agree to write a support letter. I gave him the CAB report with the relevant descriptors and he asked if he could have it (they've already sent a letter to the surgery) and after giving it a look said he would be ok writing something. Two weeks later the letter is basically "Mr AW thinks he has aspergers and is a bit anxious, plus I'm a bit fed up with the system" (ie he's fed up with me asking him to help me and wishes I'd just bugger off, i suspect).


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## Celt (Dec 4, 2013)

Awesome Wells is there anyone else involved in your care that can write a supportive letter, amongst my evidence was a statement from a family member who gave a narrative of how life was for me as regards how my health problems impacted on the life.

Have you had a look at the http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ site?


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## Bakunin (Dec 4, 2013)

Nothing other than several Twitter posts yet, but the DWP has lost their appeal against the Supreme Court ruling on WCA assessments discriminating against the mentally ill, autistic etc.

E2A: This from Rethink:

https://www.rethink.org/media-centr...vernment-loses-appeal-against-benefits-ruling

Confirmed by the BBC: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25213633


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 4, 2013)

Celt said:


> Awesome Wells is there anyone else involved in your care that can write a supportive letter, amongst my evidence was a statement from a family member who gave a narrative of how life was for me as regards how my health problems impacted on the life.
> 
> Have you had a look at the http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/ site?


I have heard of that site, but its behind a paywall. So no. There are plenty of other sources, including here, where that information can be made freely available and the CAB seem helpful enough.

I've hadned the letter the GP wrote to the CAB today. If there are any issues with it they will let me know. 

My local GP surgery is a mess; it's run by an idiot. Unfortunately these doctors subscribe to the arbeit macht frei theory. Oddly my GP agrees I need the right kind of support and that being forced into any old job isn't going to help. Unfortunately he has a real blindspot when it comes to understanding the benefit system and thinks that anything he does is akin to signing someone into oblivion - condemning them to a life on benefits. That isn't how ESA works, but he really doesn't get it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Nothing other than several Twitter posts yet, but the DWP has lost their appeal against the Supreme Court ruling on WCA assessments discriminating against the mentally ill, autistic etc.
> 
> E2A: This from Rethink:
> 
> ...




We should expect another king-sized tantrum from Dunked-in Shit, then, the petty childish wanker.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 4, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Nothing other than several Twitter posts yet, but the DWP has lost their appeal against the Supreme Court ruling on WCA assessments discriminating against the mentally ill, autistic etc.
> 
> E2A: This from Rethink:
> 
> ...


"Unless the DWP takes the case to the Supreme Court"

Which no doubt they will, costing fuck knows how much.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> We should expect another king-sized tantrum from Dunked-in Shit, then, the petty childish wanker.


Just wait till next monday. Perhaps he'll save up his petulance, store it in some gland in his brain, and lose his shit completely then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Just wait till next monday. Perhaps he'll save up his petulance, store it in some gland in his brain, and lose his shit completely then.



I've heard, through the Civil Service grapevine, that he regularly "completely loses his shit" anyway.  His dept has what an old mate described (in classic Civil Service fashion  ) as "an anomalously-high turnover of mid-level and senior Civil Servants since the Secretary of State came onboard". In other words, he pisses off the people who work for him enough that they're willing to transfer out of a dept where their competencies lie, and take their chances elsewhere.  Says a lot for Dunked-in Shit, doesn't it?


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 4, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Just wait till next monday. Perhaps he'll save up his petulance, store it in some gland in his brain, and lose his shit completely then.



It could be a full scale Mekon Meltdown.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I've heard, through the Civil Service grapevine, that he regularly "completely loses his shit" anyway.  His dept has what an old mate described (in classic Civil Service fashion  ) as "an anomalously-high turnover of mid-level and senior Civil Servants since the Secretary of State came onboard". In other words, he pisses off the people who work for him enough that they're willing to transfer out of a dept where their competencies lie, and take their chances elsewhere.  Says a lot for Dunked-in Shit, doesn't it?



Remember when he said he'd bite a guy's balls off? That was fucked, I don't know why more wasn't made of that in the press. When you see lads bulling themselves up for a confrontation "I'll rip his head off", "I'll break his legs" etc are all fairly standard, but threatening to bite a bit of a person's anatomy off, that's taking it to another level.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Remember when he said he'd bite a guy's balls off? That was fucked, I don't know why more wasn't made of that in the press. When you see lads bulling themselves up for a confrontation "I'll rip his head off", "I'll break his legs" etc are all fairly standard, but threatening to bite a bit of a person's anatomy off, that's taking it to another level.



Typical officer class - always thinking about the merry japes they had with the first years back when they were prefects at school.


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Typical officer class - always thinking about the merry japes they had with the first years back when they were prefects at school.



Cheers mate, now I've got a mental image of IDS playing the biscuit game.

This has not improved my day.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 4, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Cheers mate, now I've got a mental image of IDS playing the biscuit game.
> 
> This has not improved my day.



I get the feeling that at school Dunked-in Shit often *was* the biscuit.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Typical officer class - always thinking about the merry japes they had with the first years back when they were prefects at school.


Except that, no matter what you think of the officer class, DIS never really fitted in there either. 

Quite apart from the problem I have with that fool's name appearing in a sentence containing the word "class".


----------



## Bakunin (Dec 4, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> I get the feeling that at school Dunked-in Shit often *was* the biscuit.



Well, that's Tory MP's for you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 7, 2013)

Got my appeal date through the post (which has only just come - even for December the post has never been this late before) today: 30th of December. Can't say I'm looking forward to it. I imagine I will be examined by people who will sternly find me wanting. I'm not really expecting to pass, at all. I think it will be a bloody miracle. My goal was to get into the WRAG (the one IDS wants rid of), not the Support group, but I suspect they don't look at it in that way. I'm not really keen on attending at the magistrates court, which is the venue in question. 

What happens if you fail? Does your ESA stop there and then?


----------



## Quartz (Dec 7, 2013)

That's a hell of a damper on Christmas.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 7, 2013)

That part of it isn't an issue. I don't celebrate Christmas anyway, I can easily do without all the hoopla (too many people around in town just makes my head spin). Which i'm sure makes me sound like Mr B. A. H. Humbug


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## toggle (Dec 7, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Got my appeal date through the post (which has only just come - even for December the post has never been this late before) today: 30th of December. Can't say I'm looking forward to it. I imagine I will be examined by people who will sternly find me wanting. I'm not really expecting to pass, at all. I think it will be a bloody miracle. My goal was to get into the WRAG (the one IDS wants rid of), not the Support group, but I suspect they don't look at it in that way. I'm not really keen on attending at the magistrates court, which is the venue in question.
> 
> What happens if you fail? Does your ESA stop there and then?



breathe. 

tribunals aren't designed to be intimidating. i've sat through much scarier job interviews. 

 impression i got at the DLA appeal I say though was they were looking for reasons to find in favour of the claimant, it was the DWP on trial, don't forget these are the tribunals the DWP is trying to keep people from accessing with their mandatory non time limited and unpaid reconsiderations. try to know your descriptors and you will then know what they are after with any particular question. if you can give them information that fits the descriptors, they will find for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 7, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Got my appeal date through the post (which has only just come - even for December the post has never been this late before) today: 30th of December. Can't say I'm looking forward to it. I imagine I will be examined by people who will sternly find me wanting. I'm not really expecting to pass, at all. I think it will be a bloody miracle. My goal was to get into the WRAG (the one IDS wants rid of), not the Support group, but I suspect they don't look at it in that way. I'm not really keen on attending at the magistrates court, which is the venue in question.
> 
> What happens if you fail? Does your ESA stop there and then?



It's a tribunal.  The people who'll be hearing your case aren't functionaries of the DWP, they're neutral(-ish) participants who are utterly used, by now, to seeing disabled people who should be on ESA but were turned down, come before them.  As long as you don't contradict yourself and/or any evidence you've presented, you stand as good a chance as anyone of a good outcome.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 7, 2013)

Let's hope the tribunal people are at least neutral. But I maintain it's best to assume the worst and hope for the best. If they pass me then that's a nice Christmas present. If they don't, well at least I'm prepared.

Half the battle has been trying to explain how the system works to my GP (or whoever's sitting in for him as he seems to be 'away' half the time). I cannot understand these people, they tell me they are willing to help they even agree to write a letter, but what I get seems to suggest the GP has gone out of his way to avoid explicitly endorsing my claim. They don't like signing people off telling me variously that it will 'medicalise' the issues, or that signing people off is a death sentence (as opposed to sanctions and poverty of course). When I try to explain how the system works I feel they dismiss me as if I'm making excuses. The worst part of their ignorance is that they think they can still intervene; that, despite me trying to tell them otherwise, if I fail the tribunal they can step in somehow. It makes no sense.

My case was dealt with by Lowestoft DWP people it seems. The CAB tell me that the DWP is so overwhelmed they farm out cases to other offices, less busy at the time. The tribunal is being held t the local magistrates however, which sounds horribly ominous. I can't help worrying; it's my nature. Anxiety is like that. It's a bitch.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 7, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Let's hope the tribunal people are at least neutral. But I maintain it's best to assume the worst and hope for the best. If they pass me then that's a nice Christmas present. If they don't, well at least I'm prepared.
> 
> <snip>My case was dealt with by Lowestoft DWP people it seems. The CAB tell me that the DWP is so overwhelmed they farm out cases to other offices, less busy at the time. The tribunal is being held t the local magistrates however, which sounds horribly ominous. I can't help worrying; it's my nature. Anxiety is like that. It's a bitch.


FWIW the tribunal panel (often 3 people) frequently includes at least one person with a disability or long term health problem as well as somebody with a medical background.  

If somebody from the DWP turns up, they'll be given no easier a time than you are, and they won't be on the panel.  

A magistrates' court may be chosen as a suitable building because it has to be somewhere more or less accessible, and with a large enough room to accommodate about 9 adults sat quite far apart around a few tables.  Stressful yes, but it's really not an interrogation.  

Good luck at your appeal's tribunal, although IMHO if there's any justice in the world luck will have very little to do with a fair decision being made in your favour.


----------



## toggle (Dec 7, 2013)

Greebo said:


> FWIW the tribunal panel (often 3 people) frequently includes at least one person with a disability or long term health problem as well as somebody with a medical background.
> 
> If somebody from the DWP turns up, they'll be given no easier a time than you are, and they won't be on the panel.
> 
> ...



9?

for us, 3 tribunal members, a recorder, me and him.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> 9?
> 
> for us, 3 tribunal members, a recorder, me and him.


3 tribunal members, the DWP person, VP, his representative, me, and the recorder - that's 8 all told and there were enough chairs for others if required.


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2013)

iirc the dwp sending someone is unusual?


----------



## Greebo (Dec 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> iirc the dwp sending someone is unusual?


Supposedly.  AFAIK it varies from one area to the next.  At that time, neither side won, given that VP's DLA wasn't raised to high-high as hoped, OTOH the DWP didn't manage to prove that he should have all DLA withdrawn.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

Thanks.

What exactly would the purpose of a DWP representative attending be?


----------



## existentialist (Dec 8, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thanks.
> 
> What exactly would the purpose of a DWP representative attending be?


In principle, to argue their case that benefits should be withdrawn/reduced/suspended - it's a legal hearing, and both parties have the right to be represented.

I think it's quite telling that the default case seems to be for the DWP not to attend.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 8, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thanks.
> 
> What exactly would the purpose of a DWP representative attending be?


To argue that the Claim should be completely negated (in VP's case).   

This after the DWP had already lost all of VP's medical records pertaining to his DLA claim.  And plonked his claim form (at the bottom of a heap of other claims) on a photocopier and left it there for 3 months untouched.  I know this because a clerk in that office owned up to wondering where the claim had got to, and later there was an official admission that the records had been lost.

Tbf (and I'm really struggling to be fair) bad backs and ME were widely regarded at the time as diagnoses dished out to malingerers.  OTOH VP had been medically retired, and part of the process was being given a thorough medical by a doctor chosen by his employer, not lightly done.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

Do they appear and say things like "don't worry we can help him on JSA - we promise not to fuck him about and sanction him" (or words to that effect  )


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

existentialist said:


> In principle, to argue their case that benefits should be withdrawn/reduced/suspended - it's a legal hearing, and both parties have the right to be represented.
> 
> I think it's quite telling that the default case seems to be for the DWP not to attend.


I suppose they attend if they can spare the people, cost and think it's worthwhile.

Knowing my luck Ian Duncan Shipman himself will appear; probably during an unscheduled eclipse and a puff of sulfur and a cloud of bats.


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## Greebo (Dec 8, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Do they appear and say things like "don't worry we can help him on JSA - we promise not to fuck him about and sanction him" (or words to that effect  )


No.  The passing-for-human woman from the DWP stated repeatedly that there were "several discrepancies" with the claim.  That's all.  She didn't even state what the discrepancies were.  She also muttered "sorry" to VP as he struggled from the room.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

Greebo said:


> No.  The passing-for-human woman from the DWP stated repeatedly that there were "several discrepancies" with the claim.  That's all.  She didn't even state what the discrepancies were.  She also muttered "sorry" to VP as he struggled from the room.



Thanks for the answer.

It's all such a nightmare. 

let's hope IDS gets what he deserves from the select comittee tomorrow.


----------



## existentialist (Dec 8, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thanks for the answer.
> 
> It's all such a nightmare.
> 
> let's hope IDS gets what he deserves from the select comittee tomorrow.


Given his track record, I'd be amazed if he doesn't find some excuse not to attend.

And if he attends, I confess to some scepticism as to whether they will give him the hauling over the coals he so richly deserves.

And if that happens, I can't help but think, in some dismay, that we'll get a few choice "Well, I _believe_ it to be the case, so it is" rejoinders, and he'll somehow slip through the net.

Some day, surely, he's got to get what's coming to him?


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 8, 2013)

I personally don't think he'll attend. But it's nice to think he might and what might happen. Only the other day the Guardian caught him trying to sneak out another Universl Credit daly. Apparently the entire IT systme is going to restart from scratch (not unexpectedly), and it won't even be ready in 2017 for almost a million people. The whole thing is embarassing and disgraceful. He cannot possibly continue, even under this government.


----------



## Quartz (Dec 8, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> He cannot possibly continue, even under this government.



Of course he can. To fire him would be a sign of weakness. And to not fire him also demonstrates Cameron's weakness. And he's not going to step down 'voluntarily', is he? So Cameron's stuck.


----------



## Celt (Dec 9, 2013)

Awesome Wells,  There were 2 people for my tribunal, a doctor and the chairman (not  sure thats what he is called)  the court setting is fairly normal, there will also be a court clerk.  Were you turned down altogether for ESA?  What decision are you asking them to look at?  I know you are really not happy about attending, but if you don't you don't get a say in this and I would really encourage you to go, they will search you (standard I gather),  you need to have all your evidence in 7 days before the tribunal, however I went over and over the paperwork and wrote myself a one side of paper, bullet pointed aide memoir,  so I knew what I was asking.

The timing is pretty shitty, but hopefully you start the new year sorted.

I'm going to pm you,


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

Celt said:


> Awesome Wells,  There were 2 people for my tribunal, a doctor and the chairman (not  sure thats what he is called)  the court setting is fairly normal, there will also be a court clerk.  Were you turned down altogether for ESA?  What decision are you asking them to look at?  I know you are really not happy about attending, but if you don't you don't get a say in this and I would really encourage you to go, they will search you (standard I gather),  you need to have all your evidence in 7 days before the tribunal, however I went over and over the paperwork and wrote myself a one side of paper, bullet pointed aide memoir,  so I knew what I was asking.
> 
> The timing is pretty shitty, but hopefully you start the new year sorted.
> 
> I'm going to pm you,



I faield the WCA and the appeal (zero points) and so it's off to tribunal. I know the importance of attending, I just feel extremely anxious about it. 

The only piece of evidence yet to be submitted is a suitable GP letter. I really don't know what the problemis; he even agreed to support what the CAB and I had agreed were the appropriate descriptors after going through my case. But the letter he subsequiently wrote is a load of bollocks that seems more a personal diatribe about the system which he still doesn't understand. This is after another doctor (whom I saw because GP was off on holiday) also misread what the CAB requested and, before I could explain it to her, decided to send in a whole bunch of case notes that have nothing to do with what was asked. It's frustrating the hell out of me: all the CAB want is a very simple no frills letter that wouldn't take more than 1 page and could have easily been done by now, in about 10 minutes ffs. But they seem institutionally (or perhaps ideologically) incapable of doing so.

I have a phone appointment with my GP booked for this afternoon. I can't leave it any longer so if this fails then that's it. I don't expect he will a) be happy about it or b) understand despite agreeing specifically to write what was asked. Unfortunately the CAB advisor is adamant that without this I will fail. She says without a doctor specifically backing up those descriptors I don't stand a chance. Maybe she's being a bit over dramatic, or perhaps pragmatic.

/breathes.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

Quartz said:


> Of course he can. To fire him would be a sign of weakness. And to not fire him also demonstrates Cameron's weakness. And he's not going to step down 'voluntarily', is he? So Cameron's stuck.


Yes. I was unfortunately stuck in a moment of hopeless optimism.

IDS serves a very real purpose for the government. If it really got too much they could ditch him and deflect blame away from them personally. Meanwhile he carries out their most brutal plans almost gleefully. He was on the radio this morning, but all I caught was 'pathfinder this' and 'pathfinder that'.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

It never rains but it pours! After 7 months i just got a call from Employment Plus (the work programme division of the Salvation Army - praise be!). Some new advisor has been given my case. She sounds...ok but my experience with them has been very negative. She's going to look into mental health support, but I had to inform her that Mind, whome she said she could 'refer' me to don't operate locally. They claim they have health support, but at the same time...don't. I was advised by them to claim ESA in the first place after they bullied me last November claiming there were people they could refer me to as specialists providing i was in receipt of ESA. There wasn't.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 9, 2013)

Sorry to hear this Awesome Wells . Do not lose heart over the GP letter, at least one poster on here got there's without support from their GP at tribunal...paging Frances Lengel


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 9, 2013)

I'v managed to get the salvation army off my back till early january. Unfoprtunately I dread what will happen if I'm back on JSA because then the gloves come off and the rules, they say, are a lot more strict (so much for the black bxc approach).

My GP however is being a cunt. He said he would write a letter in support of the applicable descriptors but has written some other bullshit. I spoke to him today and he claims he never said that, instead trying to have me believe that he said he'd write whatever he thinks is appropriate, no matter how inappropriate. He seems to think that me telling hime what I need for an appeal is tellin him what to say. In a way it is, in much the sam way that anything you have to write about a particular think is limited. This isn't a creative fiction opportunity. He's lied through his teeth and wants to take the piss I think.

He said he'll take another look at the descriptors despite misplacing the copy that i gave him last time and inexplicably having no record of the one the CAB sent directly. But I'm not holding out much hope. He seems to think that anything benefit related is terrible and that claiming on the sick is unacceptable. I've tried explaining that the process is necessary because it's meant to be the proper pathway to the right kind of support. Being on ESA doesn't preclude me from looking for work, if that's desirable, nor does it mean being in the support group. What it does mean is that I don't have to deal with signing on. He's one of these that seems to htink taking someone's benefits away, ie me no longer being able to claim ESA, is the same as finding work.


----------



## WouldBe (Dec 10, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'v managed to get the salvation army off my back till early january. Unfoprtunately I dread what will happen if I'm back on JSA because then the gloves come off and the rules, they say, are a lot more strict (so much for the black bxc approach).
> 
> My GP however is being a cunt. He said he would write a letter in support of the applicable descriptors but has written some other bullshit. I spoke to him today and he claims he never said that, instead trying to have me believe that he said he'd write whatever he thinks is appropriate, no matter how inappropriate. He seems to think that me telling hime what I need for an appeal is tellin him what to say. In a way it is, in much the sam way that anything you have to write about a particular think is limited. This isn't a creative fiction opportunity. He's lied through his teeth and wants to take the piss I think.
> 
> He said he'll take another look at the descriptors despite misplacing the copy that i gave him last time and inexplicably having no record of the one the CAB sent directly. But I'm not holding out much hope. He seems to think that anything benefit related is terrible and that claiming on the sick is unacceptable. I've tried explaining that the process is necessary because it's meant to be the proper pathway to the right kind of support. Being on ESA doesn't preclude me from looking for work, if that's desirable, nor does it mean being in the support group. What it does mean is that I don't have to deal with signing on. He's one of these that seems to htink taking someone's benefits away, ie me no longer being able to claim ESA, is the same as finding work.


I didn't have a letter of support from my GP when I went to tribunal for DLA and won.

The solicitor that advised me said that if you have any evidence that goes against you (GP's letter ?) then simply don't submit it. You will be asked lots of questions at the tribunal just make your answers fit the descriptors.

Shouldn't you get points for anxiety anyway? so if you do have a bit of a wobble it should count in your favour.

Good luck.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 10, 2013)

Surprisingly, and dismally, the CAB have submitted that letter from the GP. Unfortunately and perhaps crucially, it has the GP saying that he thinks I can work. The CAB tell me they will counter this with other evidence, particularly of how difficult I find dealing with the jobcentre etc. I was gobsmakced when they thorught hthat was suitable to send. But it's too late now. If I pass it will be a bloody miracle, even though ESA isn't meant solely as an out of work benefit (as i've said before).

I've tried to hard to explain how the system works to the GP and how it isn't simply a black and white 'can/can't work issue'. By that logic most people could do _something_. Even if it's working from home in an adapated room with a PC. That's the logic IDS uses to push forward the idea that ESA/benefits are stifling people and that work awaits them like air rushing out of a balloon if people would just stop scrounging. He doesn't understand the subtlety. My point all along has been to reach the WRAG, but he only sees in terms of 'signing people off = condeming them to eternal fecklessness and self destruction', not as a means to the right kind of support in the right way.

Or maybe I'm massively wrong.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 10, 2013)

Awesome Wells is there any chance you can change your GP to one who is a bit more sympathetic?  Even if they disagree with you, it does not sound like they are explaining it very well or supporting you otherwise, I know benefits aren't really a GP thing but even so.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 10, 2013)

I can try and am likely to. Part of the problem is that our surgery has changed a lot in recent years and the person now in charge is an idiot. They don't roster doctors properly and its very hard to see a regular GP because they are constantly never available. Plus some doctors just don't like what they see as 'cherry picking'. I've had that accusation before. In regard to this appeal, seeing a new GP won't really help though.


----------



## 8115 (Dec 10, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I can try and am likely to. Part of the problem is that our surgery has changed a lot in recent years and the person now in charge is an idiot. They don't roster doctors properly and its very hard to see a regular GP because they are constantly never available. Plus some doctors just don't like what they see as 'cherry picking'. I've had that accusation before. In regard to this appeal, seeing a new GP won't really help though.


Good luck with your appeal.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 10, 2013)

Thank you.

I'm now just worried that, in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!


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## 8115 (Dec 10, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I'm now just worried that, in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!


Sickness benefits are an entitlement, we all pay tax towards them.  You are just asking for what you're entitled to.  Don't worry about fraud on top of everything else!


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## Celt (Dec 11, 2013)

Awesome Wells   are the CAB going to represent you at tribunal?  I think you need to look at the exceptional circumatances granting of ESA, you still don't have points for that, but I think your condition doesn't score enough points although I would have thought that the descriptors describing _communication with others_ are those that best fit your description,  I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day.  How being eligible to look for work would make your anxiety and mental health worse.  If you think you can cope with the Work Related Activity Group, say that - don't make it appear that you are closed to work for ever if you are not, if you can cope with trying to take part in work related activity from the safety of WRAG say so.   If as it appears your doctor is a bit pissed off with the system, say so, and say that you feel the need to go through this process has hindered any recovery and theraputic relationship between you and the person you have to rely on for healthcare.

I think if you can, don't get bogged down by the doctors dismissive attitude, it is his attitude to the ridiculous system which he is forced to work within, it isn't a personal slight to you.

I've emailed someone who has some experience in special needs education advocacy.  I read somewhere that the recent high court judgment upheld  the decision that the work capability assessment was double discriminatory  for people with mental health problems or communication difficulties/spectrum disorders.

This is "thoughts from the top of my head" stuff, you may not agree with me, but I hope me talking about this might help you think about what you can prove and put forward to the tribunal panel.   I really do know its a big ask, and your anxiety will be giving you strong signals of "you can't do this/ you can't win this", but I think you can and will.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 11, 2013)

Celt said:


> I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day.



That sounds a good idea

Any idea if this sort of thing is worth doing for the ATOS 'assessment' thing?  Or would it just not fit into their tick-box approach to it all?

(Friend I've mentioned above has managed to get his ESA50 back, with help from me and a few others, so a trip to ATOS looms at some point soon -  )


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## Celt (Dec 11, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> That sounds a good idea
> 
> Any idea if this sort of thing is worth doing for the ATOS 'assessment' thing?  Or would it just not fit into their tick-box approach to it all?
> 
> (Friend I've mentioned above has managed to get his ESA50 back, with help from me and a few others, so a trip to ATOS looms at some point soon -  )


it doesn't fit in their tic boxes, but I think its useful to add in the other stuff you want to tell them.   Just one side of a sheet of A4, it also helps secure it in the applicants mind what it is they are living with and trying to convey.


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## chainsawjob (Dec 11, 2013)

> The Government has carried out an assessment of the key factors in deciding appeals against decisions to remove disability benefits from claimants, after a pilot study revealed GP evidence was the deciding factor in only 2.9% of cases, Pulse has learnt.
> 
> The Department of Work and Pensions asked judges to provide a written summary explaining their decisions in individuals’ appeals against the removal of the Employment Support Allowance, including the importance of the GP report.
> 
> ...


 My bold.

This is from Pulse (GP publication) which is using it to argue GPs should refuse to provide evidence for benefits claimants.  I read it elsewhere on a more disability related website, but can't find the link now, but remember reading to bear in mind that most people will have already submitted GP evidence at the ESA50 stage, and not have any new GP evidence for the tribunal.

My GP did do me a letter to go with my ESA50, (my first one was successful on exceptional circumstances, second one, submitted in July, not heard yet), but like yours Awesome Wells just doesn't get what we are dealing with here.  When I tried to explain to her how people are being found unfairly fit for work, she said that the people who run it are "not ogres you know".  I gave up trying to explain.

Telling the tribunal yourself, in your own words, how your condition affects you, and how having to look for work/do work related activity would affect you, seems to be what sways it in many cases.  And I think a diary sounds a very good idea .  Good luck.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 11, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> <snip>Telling the tribunal yourself, in your own words, how your condition affects you, and how having to look for work/do work related activity would affect you, seems to be what sways it in many cases.  And I think a diary sounds a very good idea.  Good luck.


I agree about the diary or typical day and week.  You've still got a chance Awesome Wells , don't give up hope yet.

I'm pretty sure that one of the things which helped a lot with VP's last DLA claim was being able to pull out the letter I'd sent asking to be excused from jury service.  It described what assistance, care, or supervision he'd need during normal office hours, as well as the furniture and other adaptations he'd need in order for me to be able to reliably attend.  It made very depressing reading (in spite of keeping to a neutral statement of facts), but it worked. 

BTW no matter how your appeal goes, IMHO you really need an advocate, for moral support as well as to just take the pressure off you when interacting with people.  I hope you manage to find one soon.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 11, 2013)

Celt said:


> Awesome Wells   are the CAB going to represent you at tribunal?  I think you need to look at the exceptional circumatances granting of ESA, you still don't have points for that, but I think your condition doesn't score enough points although I would have thought that the descriptors describing _communication with others_ are those that best fit your description,  I kept a short diary in the days leading up to my Tribunal to give an accurate description of how anxiety/pain affected my life, they were very interested in how many good days to bad, how many good hours in a day.  How being eligible to look for work would make your anxiety and mental health worse.  If you think you can cope with the Work Related Activity Group, say that - don't make it appear that you are closed to work for ever if you are not, if you can cope with trying to take part in work related activity from the safety of WRAG say so.   If as it appears your doctor is a bit pissed off with the system, say so, and say that you feel the need to go through this process has hindered any recovery and theraputic relationship between you and the person you have to rely on for healthcare.
> 
> I think if you can, don't get bogged down by the doctors dismissive attitude, it is his attitude to the ridiculous system which he is forced to work within, it isn't a personal slight to you.
> 
> ...



All along i've argued that i'm trying to get into the WRAG, not the support group. There's no way on earth that will ever happen. But I don't know if that's how the tribunal looks at things. I don't know how they decide who goes where since, iirc, 15 points is the gateway in both cases.

According to CAB i have enough points, it's providing enough to back that up in the eyes of the tribunal. My GP says that he can't verify these issues. That is technically true - but how could he? How could anyone in a 5 minute diagnostic window ever get a hold of someone's mental health. In fact i'm not even sure mental health is the right term. I believe, as i've said before, i have a 'neurodiverse' condition. I can't seem to function in the society we have. To most people that's just laziness. 
All i've tried to do throughout all this, right from when the Work Programme first advised me to claim ESA after we clashed, was try to make the case that I need the right kind of help. It hasn't been about a binary can he work/can't he work? That's not even how ESA is meant to work. Unfortunately for me, I don't think that's how i'm going to be judged by this tribunal. Everytime i've tried explaining the subtleties of the system's failings to my GP (who never really got it) he just retorts with the old 'work is the great panacea' argument. I managed to persuade him that not all work is suitable, nor did i tell him that I can't do anything. Again unfortunately that seems to be what ESA wants you to say.

I will take some notes and a few prompts of what I want to cover when I attend. The CAB won't be attending with me. I will be going alone and if I have a meltdown en route then I will have to run back home and cry, and they will judge me in absentia I suppsoe! If I can't handle the actual interview, then well, who knows. I don't really have much of a choice. The CAB don;'t think I have the strongest case, but they've been willing to help and do what they can to support. That's all I can really expect. If I fail, I fail. Can't say i'm terribly excited about signing on again at all, but who knows.


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## chainsawjob (Dec 11, 2013)

Sorry if I was clumsy in not acknowleding how difficult it can be to describe in your own words at a tribunal when you have anxiety/mental health issues, that was remiss of me.  I agree that an advocate would be a big advantage, and hope you're able to find someone.


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## WouldBe (Dec 11, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> If I fail, I fail. Can't say i'm terribly excited about signing on again at all, but who knows.


*If* you do fail and have to sign on ask the DWP for a work psychologist appointment. The report could be very helpful for when you next claim ESA. I'm sure that helped a lot in my case.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 11, 2013)

Greebo said:


> I agree about the diary or typical day and week.  You've still got a chance Awesome Wells , don't give up hope yet.
> 
> I'm pretty sure that one of the things which helped a lot with VP's last DLA claim was being able to pull out the letter I'd sent asking to be excused from jury service.  It described what assistance, care, or supervision he'd need during normal office hours, as well as the furniture and other adaptations he'd need in order for me to be able to reliably attend.  It made very depressing reading (in spite of keeping to a neutral statement of facts), but it worked.
> 
> BTW no matter how your appeal goes, IMHO you really need an advocate, for moral support as well as to just take the pressure off you when interacting with people.  I hope you manage to find one soon.


Thanks. I'm going to see about getting a new doctor. I really do think it is important for doctor's to understand the system. They won't like it - some certainly don't. But I think it's the nature of the game now. People, particularly with mental health issues, just can't do without it. The cards are stacked against claimants. 
I'm not sure i could get an advocate this late in the day and this close to the holiday season. I will ring the tribunal place and ask what my experience will be, letting them know i have problems with this. If attending alone becomes counter productive to me case, then that's just too bad for me I guess.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 11, 2013)

WouldBe said:


> *If* you do fail and have to sign on ask the DWP for a work psychologist appointment. The report could be very helpful for when you next claim ESA. I'm sure that helped a lot in my case.


I have one already, it's part of my tribunal appeal. The CAB advisor had never heard of these people before. The psychologist in question says the right things, and it's good to have her on side, but I suspect that, when push comes to shove, she won't really be able to help. She says that she can negotiate with the DWP to make it easier for people like me signing, but who knows how that will work these days we know how trigger happy the DWP are! Still it's better than nothing. 
Beyond that i'm not sure what they can do. When I first saw her she said she could undertake a proper aspergers diagnosis, but then changed it into a more basic examination which formed the basis of her report. It was a bit weird really; prestened as a test to determine the potential, not a direct diagnosis. According to it i have strong change of ADD and possibly other similar conditions as well as 'non verbal learning disability'. But she can't get involved in anything related to the DWP - for example, she has no influence over the behaviour of Work Programme providers, or the tribunal directly.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 11, 2013)

chainsawjob said:


> Sorry if I was clumsy in not acknowleding how difficult it can be to describe in your own words at a tribunal when you have anxiety/mental health issues, that was remiss of me.  I agree that an advocate would be a big advantage, and hope you're able to find someone.


Thanks, I understand the point. 

Of course an advocate is helpful - anything that can help has got to be good. It's just the reality isn't always the ideal.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 11, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thank you.
> 
> I'm now just worried that, *in saying he thinks i can work, that they might think i've been committing fraud or something stupid!*



Don't worry about that, that won't happen - If it did, everyone who made a claim for ESA and got turned down would be potentially up for fraud - All it means is in your opinion you can't work (or at least need help getting back to work and, as such, should be in the WRAG, whereas your dunderhead of a GP doesn't understand the system and probably reckons he's doing you a favour in saying you can work). By all means worry about getting into the ESA work group but *don't worry about any fraud bullshit. *That's not going to happen.

It's true that as equationgirl says, I did my own form and my own appeal without any supporting evidence from a GP or anyone else. But, unlike you, what I didn't have was a letter from a GP that was entirely unhelpful. So I've no real advice to give you. Apart from to wish you well and to go ahead with the appeal all the way to it's conclusion. All the best.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 11, 2013)

Hopefully the letter won't be damaging; otherwise the CAB have made a dreadful mistake in submitting it. I was surprised they sent it, but I guess there's no backsies!


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## equationgirl (Dec 12, 2013)

Well hopefully the tribunal panel will see the GP letter for the rant against the system that it is. Perhaps he thinks he's helping by writing such a letter?


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 12, 2013)

My GP indeed thinks he's helping. That's the thing; he just doesn't understand. After all IDS thinks he's helping people. That's why he's so dangerous.

The subtleties of this system and it's failings, particularly the way the WCA is strucutred and handled, are just not seen. The other doctor that I saw even told me not to worry if i failed the tribunal because she thought she could still intervene. She's a doctor, she thinks, i have to be listened to when i speak about someone's health. Yes, in a sane world that would be only right. But this society isn't run that way!


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 13, 2013)

What rules do tribunals have for approving claims and for how long? A friend was telling me he passed his tribunal for 2 years in the support group.

Now assuming he isn't confusing the two groups; surely time limiting people in the support group is no different to being placed in the WRAG? The argument for the latter is that it's a person who 'can work in the future', while the support group is for people who aren't getting any better.


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## Sapphireblue (Dec 13, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> What rules do tribunals have for approving claims and for how long? A friend was telling me he passed his tribunal for 2 years in the support group.
> 
> Now assuming he isn't confusing the two groups; surely time limiting people in the support group is no different to being placed in the WRAG? The argument for the latter is that it's a person who 'can work in the future', while the support group is for people who aren't getting any better.



i think the idea is if you're in the support group they completely leave you alone until the time period is up, whereas in the WRAG there may be stuff you have to do (usually towards the end of the time period) to help you get work in the future.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 13, 2013)

I suppose that's what they'd say. But it just goes the prove further how ESA has been so twisted. It isn't meant to be like this. The clue's in the name... you would think!


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## Reg Perrin (Dec 14, 2013)




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## kittyP (Dec 14, 2013)

I know I am repeating myself but I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off. 
It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much. 
But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas. 
Machine love to you all xxx


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 14, 2013)

Sapphireblue said:


> *i think the idea is if you're in the support group they completely leave you alone until the time period is up*, whereas in the WRAG there may be stuff you have to do (usually towards the end of the time period) to help you get work in the future.



That's it exactly.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 14, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know I am repeating myself but *I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off. *
> It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much.
> But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas.
> Machine love to you all xxx



Don't worry about it - I seriously doubt anyone thinks that.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 15, 2013)

That video is quite upsetting. Labour supporters need to watch it because that's what Rache Reeves wants to be tougher than.


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## equationgirl (Dec 15, 2013)

kittyP said:


> I know I am repeating myself but I just don't want people to think I took from this thread and then fucked off.
> It makes me really nervous if I read this thread too much.
> But I wanted to say that I am thinking of you all, especially coming up to Christmas.
> Machine love to you all xxx


Nobody thinks that lovey x x x


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## kittyP (Dec 16, 2013)

Thank you and I have no idea where the "machine love" came from 
It was supposed to be "much love"


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## geminisnake (Dec 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Thank you and I have no idea where the "machine love" came from
> It was supposed to be "much love"



I guessed that but it made me 
I haven't heard from the tribunal since I failed to make the last appt and I sent back the form so they ask my doc for a report. If I remembered about it more often I might worry


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 16, 2013)

kittyP said:


> Thank you and I have no idea where the "machine love" came from
> It was supposed to be "much love"



I assumed machine love was from some sort of music or somesuch you might've been into.  Like maybe Kraftwerk or something. Machine Love back at ya though.


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 18, 2013)

Atos no longer has the contract. At present, there is no appointed medical advisor. (According to the latest issue of Private Eye)


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 18, 2013)

ATOS has lost the WCA contract?

Does that mean no tribunal for me? I win by default?

Oh if only


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 19, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> ATOS has lost the WCA contract?
> 
> Does that mean no tribunal for me? I win by default?
> 
> Oh if only



No.

ATOS has ceded the contract for *providing medical advice to adjudication officers with regard to DLA claims*. It has nothing to do with the WCA, worse luck.


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## teqniq (Dec 21, 2013)




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## Awesome Wells (Dec 21, 2013)

9 days to go till my tribunal.

I am dreading it.

I hate anxiety.

Fuck you Duncan Smith.


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## teqniq (Dec 21, 2013)

Awesome Wells all the best


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 21, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> 9 days to go till my tribunal.
> 
> I am dreading it.
> 
> ...



I've said this before but the tribunal's the one bit of the whole process where you won't get treated like scum - They _will_ consider the evidence presented to them impartially - They're not affiliated to ATOS, all they'll concern themselves with is Social Security law and how it applies to you and your situation. To get to the tribunal stage, you'll have been knocked back every previous step of the way which is bound to be disheartening (I know it was for me), but this is the one bit in which you won't get treated like a prick.

Chin up* mate and all the best. Bring it down. It _can_ be done.

*Chin down for the actual tribunal though - Don't want to look too chipper.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 21, 2013)

Understood, but I just can't help expect the worst (if I could help it, I wouldn't be claiming! )

I think the only angle I have is to appeal to how ESA is supposed to work. That it shouldn't be solely on the basis of can't work at all. I have a print out of the DWP website saying this. However I can't help thinking that i'll look a massive smug bastard for trying to tell them their job.

However i jsut think that, as with ATOS, mere attendance (and alone) will weigh against me. Plus, if I seem coherent and lucid, which I do, it will do likewise. I've had this attitude from doctors and the like where they tell me that I sound intelligent (i'm saying nothing) and can articulate myself - as if mental health problems = stupidity.


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## Puddy_Tat (Dec 21, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Understood, but I just can't help expect the worst (if I could help it, I wouldn't be claiming! )
> 
> I think the only angle I have is to appeal to how ESA is supposed to work. That it shouldn't be solely on the basis of can't work at all. I have a print out of the DWP website saying this. However I can't help thinking that i'll look a massive smug bastard for trying to tell them their job.
> 
> However i jsut think that, as with ATOS, mere attendance (and alone) will weigh against me. Plus, if I seem coherent and lucid, which I do, it will do likewise. I've had this attitude from doctors and the like where they tell me that I sound intelligent (i'm saying nothing) and can articulate myself - as if mental health problems = stupidity.



It is fairly well known - and from memory, think it's been declared by a court but ignored by DWP, that the WCA assessment doesn't work in respect of mental health.

If there is anyone at all you can take with you, I really would recommend it - they don't have to speak (not sure they would be allowed to at a tribunal) but firstly being there as some sort of support, and secondly, getting visibly needing support to get there will help your case.  

The key really is to take this along the lines of how your condition (and I don't want to ask questions here) affects you and would prevent you from working.  While I'm not suggesting you give misleading information, you need to be careful to avoid answers like "well, on very rare good days, I can just about manage to do X even though I feel like shit for days afterwards" - these are likely to be mis-represented as "this person can do X".

And think about how situations you may face at home could pan out in a workplace.  If (for example) you have minor accidents at home through inability to concentrate, the risk of harm in a workplace is potentially greater.

If I'm not stating the obvious, it's worth knowing how the points system works for ESA, and (like doing a job application) trying to express your circumstances in a way that fits whichever of their descriptions are relevant.  There's a list of the points here (it's on Tameside's website, but the system is national.)   Bear in mind that it covers practically every imaginable physical and mental condition out there, so don't be alarmed if a lot of sections aren't relevant to you.

Hope all goes well.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 21, 2013)

Thanks.

When I sat down with the CAB, at the point of starting the appeal, we went through the descriptors and worked out what was relevant. It's a strange process; even though it wasn't conducted by a doctor it was more of an actual medical than the WCA, which just goes to show it up for what it really is. Also confronting those descriptors did feel - and this may sound very weird - somehwat dishonest. Not wanting to see how your mind really works and what your issues really are, while wanting to believe they aren't an issue. Not least of all because all along we are told to 'chin up' and not make excuses, and just get on.

When you're so close to these problems (as the person involved) it's difficult to see things objectively. For example, I believe that I have a neurodiverse conditoin, possibly aspergers or add. A Work Psychologist report helps with this, though it doesn't diagnose specifically (she couldn't do an actual diagnosis, but did a broader test of some kind). I could bring the letter from the mental health trust saying i'm on the waiting list for a diagnosis, though it doesn't really prove anything. I had hoped i might get seen before the tribunal. Maybe they will allow me ESA until that diagnosis is heard though my GP says he doesn't think I have aspergers (not that he could possibly know).

The big problem with mental health is proof. GP's are reluctant, IME, to acknowledge these issues ebcause they can't verify them. I put this to my GP, but he had no answer. How is someone with underlying problems (stuff that isn't perhaps 'obvious') ever to get stuff verified?


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 21, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>However i jsut think that, as with ATOS, mere attendance (and alone) *will weigh against me.* <snip>



It doesn't - People who attend their tribunals in person are statistically more likely to pass. Someone on here might even know the actual figures.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 21, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> It doesn't - People who attend their tribunals in person are statistically more likely to pass. Someone on here might even know the actual figures.


The CAB quoted 20% as the success rate if you don't attend. I know it's much higher if you attend. Seems a bit unfair really. They have the evidence.


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## Celt (Dec 22, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> 9 days to go till my tribunal.
> 
> I am dreading it.
> 
> ...



Thinking of you,  reallly hope you have a good result.


Anxiety is a little like hitting your head against a brick wall, great when it stops.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 22, 2013)

Thanks.

Do tribunals know or even, somehow, take into account the issues between mental health and the WCA?

My GP said he'd look again at the descriptors and the CAB report with a view to a better letter of support (though that was before i'd heard from the CAB they'd sibmitted his last letter), but he hasn't bothered to get back to me. I told him time was a factor and he dismissed me. 

I'm hoping the Work Psychologist report will cut some ice.

What exactly is the Work Psychologist department tasked with anyway? Mine is helpful, in a somewhat limited way, though it's better to have her on side than not.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

Are you allowed to bring evidences - notes/letters/info - on the day? What i mean is: the tribunal papers seem to suggest that stuff has to be submitted at least 7 days (maybe even 14) ahead. What if I want to bring some extra evidence?

I'm writing some notes, as per the suggestion above, and it's all getting to me a bit. I shall end up printing out an autobiography at this rate. Putting into words your own failings and problems is very uncomfortable.

As this bloody government twists the knife I find myself growing more detached from society.


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## Greebo (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Are you allowed to bring evidences - notes/letters/info - on the day? What i mean is: the tribunal papers seem to suggest that stuff has to be submitted at least 7 days (maybe even 14) ahead. What if I want to bring some extra evidence?
> 
> I'm writing some notes, as per the suggestion above, and it's all getting to me a bit. I shall end up printing out an autobiography at this rate. Putting into words your own failings and problems is very uncomfortable.<snip>


It's worth a try.  They're not guaranteed to be accepted, but you can at least use them to help you remember what you need to say.  I know writing all that stuff out isn't a cheerful task, OTOH if it helps you to win this tribunal it'll be worth it.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

I want to point out to the tribunal that ESA is not just intended for people that can't work at all - despite waht IDS might wish otherwise. It's supposed to be there to help people that need help, in or out of work, the clue should be in the title. I would hope the tribunal can see that, bceause that's what the DWP themselves say. 

Of course what they say and what they mean are entirely different things.


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## Celt (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Are you allowed to bring evidences - notes/letters/info - on the day? What i mean is: the tribunal papers seem to suggest that stuff has to be submitted at least 7 days (maybe even 14) ahead. What if I want to bring some extra evidence?
> 
> I'm writing some notes, as per the suggestion above, and it's all getting to me a bit. I shall end up printing out an autobiography at this rate. Putting into words your own failings and problems is very uncomfortable.
> 
> As this bloody government twists the knife I find myself growing more detached from society.



I was asked when I got to the court by the clerk if I had any further evidence,  I had submitted it the 7 days before, but had a list of reminders for myself.  If you haven't submitted evidence then it can't do any harm to take it with you, they can only say no, and they might say yes.

I know I felt much as you describe in the week leading up to the tribunal.

I know its easy for me to say now, but I really felt the tribunal panel were trying to understand me and my illness, they asked quite a lot of questions, but that was to understand how my life was.


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## Celt (Dec 26, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've said this before but the tribunal's the one bit of the whole process where you won't get treated like scum - They _will_ consider the evidence presented to them impartially - They're not affiliated to ATOS, all they'll concern themselves with is Social Security law and how it applies to you and your situation. To get to the tribunal stage, you'll have been knocked back every previous step of the way which is bound to be disheartening (I know it was for me), but this is the one bit in which you won't get treated like a prick.
> 
> Chin up* mate and all the best. Bring it down. It _can_ be done.
> 
> *Chin down for the actual tribunal though - Don't want to look too chipper.


I totally agree


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

Let's hope that's the case for me. I can't assume it will be. Like anything I could get someone that's understanding or someone else.

I think it could be 50/50 on that basis.

I'm also hoping they aren't backlogged. I know they aren't ATOS, but I nearly had to wait for oever and hour for my WCA (which would not have been pleasant - unlike the poor woman who came in after me). It was by luck the (unpleasant) receptionist came over and told me that they could see me right away. It was also lucky the waiting area was empty. Had it been full, i'd have been very uncomfortable. I'm anticipating a similar setup at the tribunal given how backed up the whole thing seems to be. I don't wait very well.


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## purenarcotic (Dec 26, 2013)

I think you're making a tribunal to be too much like an ATOS experience tbh and I appreciate that is all the experience you have to go on but it really is not set up to catch you out like ATOS is.  

I'm not going to say don't worry because that's obviously a daft thing to say but I would try not to compare it to an ATOS appointment because you'll get yourself into a state unnecessarily.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

Greebo said:


> It's worth a try.  They're not guaranteed to be accepted, but you can at least use them to help you remember what you need to say.  I know writing all that stuff out isn't a cheerful task, OTOH if it helps you to win this tribunal it'll be worth it.


I was thinking more of actual evidence. What I'm writing for myself are just some notes to help me remember my problems, even if they don't 100% tally with the descriptors.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

I've just gotten around to reading the final report sent by the CAB summarising everything. it's taken me a couple of weeks to pluck up the courage to do this; it's like looking into a very scary mirror. Like being forced to admit how crap your life is. 

It's written in the first person, am I expected to memorise this report as if I'd written it? Surely not.

Also I'm a bit concerned one of the elements has been exaggerated: it says I can't face starting the day regularly. That's not entirely true. If anything I'm a light sleeper prone to insomnia who wakes up, more or less, early. I can't abide lazing in bed and I have never been able to sleep when there's a hint of daylight. It's not a question of facing the day as it is facing certain situations - my dread over this tribunal. Given that I'll be attending on my own this claim is going to look a bit hollow. I think the CAB may have blown what I said a bit too much out of proportion and I don't want to look lik e I'm trying it on. If that makes any sense.


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## Celt (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> It's written in the first person, am I expected to memorise this report as if I'd written it? Surely not.
> .


No, its in the evidence, but its worth trying to remember its there.

I would have thought that you are looking for esa to be granted under the exceptional circumstances rule, i.e. that you don't fit neatly in the descriptors.


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## purenarcotic (Dec 26, 2013)

You won't be expected to remember it all, no.  You can refer to paperwork as much as you need to and feel free to explain things freely and in your own words.  The tribunal want to hear what you feel and what you think; the written evidence helps them to reach a conclusion but it isn't the sole thing they base decision on.

I also wouldn't worry about the way it has been worded: you can explain that what you're trying to get at is that getting through a day can be a real struggle if you know you've got to face something like going to work.  

I expect if you were forced to work you would find facing a day ahead difficult and that is the key point.  Not being able to face the day or feeling like you can't doesn't automatically mean spending the day in bed either.


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## toggle (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've just gotten around to reading the final report sent by the CAB summarising everything. it's taken me a couple of weeks to pluck up the courage to do this; it's like looking into a very scary mirror. Like being forced to admit how crap your life is.
> 
> It's written in the first person, am I expected to memorise this report as if I'd written it? Surely not.
> 
> Also I'm a bit concerned one of the elements has been exaggerated: it says I can't face starting the day regularly. That's not entirely true. If anything I'm a light sleeper prone to insomnia who wakes up, more or less, early. I can't abide lazing in bed and I have never been able to sleep when there's a hint of daylight. It's not a question of facing the day as it is facing certain situations - my dread over this tribunal. Given that I'll be attending on my own this claim is going to look a bit hollow. I think the CAB may have blown what I said a bit too much out of proportion and I don't want to look lik e I'm trying it on. If that makes any sense.




easier said than done, i know, but please try to relax a little. the tribunal are not out to proove you wrong. 

but the admitting it is all crap, that's a hard thing in and of itself to see it all written down. to not be able to hide from any of it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 26, 2013)

purenarcotic said:


> You won't be expected to remember it all, no.  You can refer to paperwork as much as you need to and feel free to explain things freely and in your own words.


That's what i've been trying to write (as opposed to the CAB report).

I hope I can post on monday that all this worry and woe was for naught


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 26, 2013)

Don't feel rushed either, the tribunal will understand you're nervous and they will give you space.


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 26, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip>Also I'm a bit concerned one of the elements has been exaggerated: it says I can't face starting the day regularly. That's not entirely true. If anything I'm a light sleeper prone to insomnia who wakes up, more or less, early. I can't abide lazing in bed and I have never been able to sleep when there's a hint of daylight.* It's not a question of facing the day as it is facing certain situations *- my dread over this tribunal. Given that I'll be attending on my own this claim is going to look a bit hollow. I think the CAB may have blown what I said a bit too much out of proportion and I don't want to look like I'm trying it on. If that makes any sense.



It does make sense but you're supposed to describe your symptoms on your very worst days though, so don't be worrying about being thought of as trying it on. AFAIC, not being able to face the day is shorthand for not being able to face certain situations anyway & doesn't equate to staying in bed all day.

If you get asked how you managed to attend the tribunal given your symptoms answer honestly - "With extreme difficulty and the stress caused by the mere thought of having to attend is such that, IMO, it has excacerbated my condition significantly" - Or something along those lines.

I've already said but it can't hurt to say it again - All the best, mate. My thoughts are with you - Worrying yourself sick over something like this is no way to spend Christmas. I _really _hope you get the result you need.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 27, 2013)

Thanks for the help.

It mauy well be that attending will be too much. As I say, it was by fortune that the WCA wasn't difficult. Had the waiting room been stuffed full of strangers and had I been made to wait as long as I was initially told I would have struggled. The actuall assessement itself wasn't so difficult because, having made myself aware of what to expect and to expect very little of any value - and because the assessor was polite and pleasant on a personal level, I was ok with it. When it ended I was hoever very tired. It was also a private room with just the two of us. 

As with mental health in general it's what you don't see. Our system and, it seems to me, our society judges people on what they seem to achieve. So if someone attends an appointment, they have zero problems. It doesn't seem to matter how difficult it was for them or how easily it could have gone wrong.


----------



## cesare (Dec 27, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've accompanied a friend twice to an ATOS assessment and then to the first level appeal tribunal.
> 
> The first time my friend had an ATOS assessment she went unaccompanied, and was very unhappy with the assessor and how the assessment was carried out. She failed the assessment despite having a progressive condition +
> 
> ...


Awesome Wells I'm just bumping this description to give you an idea of my experience of the Tribunal. I went along expecting something like the Employment Tribunal but I was very pleasantly surprised at how different this was. The staff were lovely and supportive and friendly. The two people on the Tribunal treated us with respect and there was no legalese. It wasn't intimidating. This was London, I hope the same applies in your area.

Good luck.


----------



## purenarcotic (Dec 27, 2013)

The tribunal are acutely aware that your life and some level of financial stability is at stake and they will understand that people will put themselves through great difficulty to attend as a consequence.  They may ask whether attending has caused you any difficulty but you being there shouldn't particularly influence the final decision because they're looking at a whole variety of different factors.

You can also tell them you've found attending very difficult and stressful and how preparing to come has negatively impacted on your mental health.  That they will be keen to know.

If someone with severe epilepsy attended the tribunal and doesn't have a fit they aren't going to assume the person doesn't actually have epilepsy (the sort of daft stunts ATOS have been known to pull).


----------



## panpete (Dec 27, 2013)

Hi Everyone

I got a letter today, to say that I had been placed in the support group.
I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for helping me.

I want to wish everyone who is waiting to hear best of luck.

The letter does not state how long I am in this group for, so I assume it's a year?

Thanks


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 27, 2013)

cesare said:


> Awesome Wells I'm just bumping this description to give you an idea of my experience of the Tribunal. I went along expecting something like the Employment Tribunal but I was very pleasantly surprised at how different this was. The staff were lovely and supportive and friendly. The two people on the Tribunal treated us with respect and there was no legalese. It wasn't intimidating. This was London, I hope the same applies in your area.
> 
> Good luck.


Thanks. 3 days to go, let's hope it goes ok.

If the weather remains crap I hope they don't mind me turning up in me wellies!


----------



## cesare (Dec 27, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thanks. 3 days to go, let's hope it goes ok.
> 
> If the weather remains crap I hope they don't mind me turning up in me wellies!


They'll be fine with wellies! Fingers crossed for you, and in the meantime. I know all too well how debilitating high anxiety levels are, and how also physically poorly you can feel as a result.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I got a letter today, to say that I had been placed in the support group.
> I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for helping me.
> ...



Superb. Nice one 

I'm not sure about the duration though - Let's hope it's as long as you need though.


----------



## panpete (Dec 27, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Superb. Nice one
> 
> I'm not sure about the duration though - Let's hope it's as long as you need though.


Hi and thanks.

You can imagine how utterly delighted I am to receive this good news. 
I just looked on benefitsandwork, and they said the reassessment time is based on prognosis but you can ask.
I dunno whether to ask or not, at this stage.

I used the WCA handbook that benfitsandwork provide when filling my form, but that forum is not open till 6th Jan so I'll have to wait till then to thank them.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Dec 27, 2013)

Yeah, I can understand your reticence about asking about the reassessment time - If I were in your position I'd be worried (irrationally) about jinxing it. Just enjoy the result for now - Ring them up in a few weeks to ask. Whenever you feel up to it. That's what I'd probably do anyway.


----------



## panpete (Dec 27, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yeah, I can understand your reticence about asking about the reassessment time - If I were in your position I'd be worried (irrationally) about jinxing it. Just enjoy the result for now - Ring them up in a few weeks to ask. Whenever you feel up to it. That's what I'd probably do anyway.


Yeah, i'll probs wait.

I will be getting £89 a week, but I am gonna see the CAB who will sort it. I think they've miscalculated it. Im on a private pension of £500 per month, and they've included the support component in with that as well. I get £89 a week IB so maybe theyve just made an error.


----------



## toggle (Dec 27, 2013)

cesare said:


> Awesome Wells I'm just bumping this description to give you an idea of my experience of the Tribunal. I went along expecting something like the Employment Tribunal but I was very pleasantly surprised at how different this was. The staff were lovely and supportive and friendly. The two people on the Tribunal treated us with respect and there was no legalese. It wasn't intimidating. This was London, I hope the same applies in your area.
> 
> Good luck.




Same as the one I went to. 

it helps if you have some idea of the descriptors you might be aiming at, then you understand the reason for the questions bgeing asked. eg, for Bakunin, there were several on his ability to cook for himself, because the easiest descriptor to meet for lower level DLA is being unable to cook. for him, like a lot of other stuff, the answer is he can do fine, as long as there is someone there who can catch the mistakes before the fire brigade are called. but he won't bother on his own account, hence the diabeties from eating shite. knowing what the descriptors were let me put his health into the context of what they were asking for.

and he found it a far less stressful time than me. and he is diagnosed aspie, so does have the anxiety in new spaces/with new expereinces. He wibbled loads beforehand, but once he was in there, was fine. it was me walking about for hours after feeling like i'd been smacked with a brick.


----------



## toggle (Dec 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi Everyone
> 
> I got a letter today, to say that I had been placed in the support group.
> I want to thank you all from the bottom of my heart for helping me.
> ...



fantastic.

and please Pete, give yourself a few days at least before you start wondering when you go through this again. give yourself a break from stressing yourself out over this. if you can.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 27, 2013)

cesare said:


> They'll be fine with wellies! Fingers crossed for you, and in the meantime. I know all too well how debilitating high anxiety levels are, and how also physically poorly you can feel as a result.


Thanks. Hopefully it will be dry enough to get out. I don't care if i get soaked coming back. 

I was just as nervous going to the Work Programme (and, sadly, with good reason). My legs were like jelly and I just felt awful.  Unfortunately their attitude to mental health was to completely deny the 'customer' had anything wrong with them, evidence or no.


----------



## panpete (Dec 27, 2013)

toggle said:


> fantastic.
> 
> and please Pete, give yourself a few days at least before you start wondering when you go through this again. give yourself a break from stressing yourself out over this. if you can.


Hi thanks Toggle

You're one of the many on here who helped me. Without me asking you guys, well, dunno if it would have worked out, but it did, and yeah, i am chilling out. I feel better than I have done in years.


----------



## toggle (Dec 27, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi thanks Toggle
> 
> You're one of the many on here who helped me. Without me asking you guys, well, dunno if it would have worked out, but it did, and yeah, i am chilling out. I feel better than I have done in years.



well done.

and more to the point, you now know what to write to tick boxes and if they do decide to arsehole you again relatively soon, you copy everything, then add anything new.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 27, 2013)

well done panpete


----------



## panpete (Dec 28, 2013)

Hi EG

Thanks for your help too.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 28, 2013)

panpete said:


> Hi EG
> 
> Thanks for your help too.


You're welcome - now stop worrying!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 29, 2013)

Do I need to bring any ID with me to the tribunal? I can't find anything in the paperwork that says either way.


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## Greebo (Dec 29, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Do I need to bring any ID with me to the tribunal? I can't find anything in the paperwork that says either way.


If in doubt, take ID if you can find it.  The letter (assuming that you kept it) may be enough, but a passport etc just makes certain.

Good luck.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 29, 2013)

Greebo said:


> If in doubt, take ID if you can find it.  The letter (assuming that you kept it) may be enough, but a passport etc just makes certain.
> 
> Good luck.



Dug out the letter among the pile of notes i have to bring tomorrow and it doesn't say anything about ID. I will bring my birth certificate and a bank statement. If that's not enough then tough as I own neither a driving license nor a passport. 

I haven't even had the nerve to face all this paperwork until now. Not good really, but it's all in the bag and that will have to do. I really hope they don't keep me waiting. ATOS were so overbooked it was ridiculous. The woman who came to be WCA'd after me clearly had some difficulty walking and was told she faced an epic wait or hobble all the way back home because they couldn't have her sat in discomfort for hours. 

Couldn't invest in a suitably equipped waiting room either, unfortunately.


----------



## toggle (Dec 29, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Dug out the letter among the pile of notes i have to bring tomorrow and it doesn't say anything about ID. I will bring my birth certificate and a bank statement. If that's not enough then tough as I own neither a driving license nor a passport.
> 
> I haven't even had the nerve to face all this paperwork until now. Not good really, but it's all in the bag and that will have to do. I really hope they don't keep me waiting. ATOS were so overbooked it was ridiculous. The woman who came to be WCA'd after me clearly had some difficulty walking and was told she faced an epic wait or hobble all the way back home because they couldn't have her sat in discomfort for hours.
> 
> Couldn't invest in a suitably equipped waiting room either, unfortunately.




our experience was that we didn't see anyone in the building other than the receptionist and the people who were in the room during the tribunal. 

I think you said yours is in a court house though? AFAIK they all have private waiting rooms for witnesses and you can always ask if there is one free that you can use if ti's busy enough in the main waiting area to cause you distress. if they do, tell the tribunal this was necessary, if they don't, explain why the lack of the facility has increased your anxiety.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 29, 2013)

toggle said:


> our experience was that we didn't see anyone in the building other than the receptionist and the people who were in the room during the tribunal.
> 
> I think you said yours is in a court house though? AFAIK they all have private waiting rooms for witnesses and you can always ask if there is one free that you can use if ti's busy enough in the main waiting area to cause you distress. if they do, tell the tribunal this was necessary, if they don't, explain why the lack of the facility has increased your anxiety.


Yeah, they are using the local magistrates because of how clogged up the system is in processing all this (not sure that weighs in my favour).

I'm really hoping that they don't keep me waiting. I'm like the anti-waiter. I'll drop your drinks with my shaky hands and piss my pants! I am not a patient person. Hopefully some Bill Hicks mps will chill me out


----------



## panpete (Dec 30, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Yeah, they are using the local magistrates because of how clogged up the system is in processing all this (not sure that weighs in my favour).
> 
> I'm really hoping that they don't keep me waiting. I'm like the anti-waiter. I'll drop your drinks with my shaky hands and piss my pants! I am not a patient person. Hopefully some Bill Hicks mps will chill me out


Best of luck Awesome.


----------



## chainsawjob (Dec 30, 2013)

Hope it goes well for you Awesome Wells .


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

Thanks.

Not long to go. I am absolutely shitting myself. No two ways about it. I feel like a kid being called in front of the bloody headmaster to explain himself! 

Ever since the appeal was sent to the tribunal i've been dreading the arrival of the brown envelope telling me when, and then, when it did appear 3 weeks ago, I've not stopped worrying about it. This is no way to be.

I picked up the other letter my GP agreed to write after I told him his first effort wasn't great (even though I didn't know the CAB had already submitted it). It is actually a bit better, but according to the tribunal bumph submitting evidence late (i couldn't get the letter any quicker because they'd forgot to print it out in time) could lead to an adjournment! Gods, I can't go through another period of waiting. I will explode!


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## Frances Lengel (Dec 30, 2013)

Finger crossed for you Awesome Wells  .All the best, chief, I hope it goes your way.


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## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

Just got back. No verdict made then, they said i would hear in the next couple iof days as they don't want to rush their decision. I hope that's not code for "you've got no chance sonny jim".

Place was empty, but being a courthouse I had to go through a metal detector which was something new. 

The tribunal people seemed nice enough; clerk, lady judge, gentlman doctor. They aksed stuff, I answered stuff. Was very nervous. Had a wee moment. 

Could go either way frankly. I don't know whether to laugh or cry really. This whole merry go round seems without end.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 30, 2013)

Holding a good thought for you, Awesome Wells .  Be kind to yourself; after that ordeal, you deserve it.


----------



## panpete (Dec 30, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Thanks.
> 
> Not long to go. I am absolutely shitting myself. No two ways about it. I feel like a kid being called in front of the bloody headmaster to explain himself!
> 
> ...


Keeping fingers crossed for you that you get the right result.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

Getting through it is reward enough I think. Anything after that is a bonus. 

The final decision could go either way. I can't second guess it at all. Time will tell I guess


----------



## Quartz (Dec 30, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Just got back. No verdict made then, they said i would hear in the next couple iof days as they don't want to rush their decision.



Fingers crossed for you. But it sounds that unlike ATOS etc they gave you a fair hearing.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

I suppose they did. They were friendly enough and were interested in letting me have my say. Of course one cannot divine anything from that since that's their job. Still stressful experience though. But at least it's good to know, through experience, they aren't evil monsters. 

I guess I'll hear one way or the other by the end of the week. I think it all depends on how they relate the law to my case and whether what i say tallies with what the law allows, if that makes any sense.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

Also, whether or not the decision goes my way, my thanks to everyone that has offered help and support


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 30, 2013)

Fingers crossed here too. I thought you got told on the day. Feck! End of January for me.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Fingers crossed here too. I thought you got told on the day. Feck! End of January for me.


Judge said they like to take a bit more time with all their peeps. I guess that's their prerogative.


----------



## panpete (Dec 30, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> Fingers crossed here too. I thought you got told on the day. Feck! End of January for me.


Aww fingers crossed for you too. x


----------



## Celt (Dec 30, 2013)

panpete  Glad your decision came through and was the right one.

Awesome Wells  I hope you get the right decision, well done on getting through your tribunal.


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## panpete (Dec 30, 2013)

Thank you Celt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Judge said they like to take a bit more time with all their peeps. I guess that's their prerogative.



Sometimes means they need to check a point of law, too.
Which makes sense - best to check first and issue a legally-sound decision, than issue one that's contestable.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 31, 2013)

I'm due my next - last? - ESA payment (at pre assessment rate) this friday. It normally goes in on the tueday so it presume it went through yesterday because of the bank holiday. If the full rate doesn't go through then I'll know the answer. Failing that it'll arrive around the same time anyway I expect.


----------



## toggle (Dec 31, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm due my next - last? - ESA payment (at pre assessment rate) this friday. It normally goes in on the tueday so it presume it went through yesterday because of the bank holiday. If the full rate doesn't go through then I'll know the answer. Failing that it'll arrive around the same time anyway I expect.



that might not be the answer.

and you might be fuicked for a short while.

even if you get a positive result from the tribunal, dwp can take 6 weeks to respond. 

call up housing office regularly and make sure that the dwp isn't messing with your HB/CTB.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 31, 2013)

le sigh.

it's never simple is it.

So that's why the judge asked me if i had a current fit note. Mine ends sometime in January, mid to late iirc. Presumably the DWP will keep making payments until they hear otherwise from the tribunal people. or do they just stop people's payments as soon as they hear the claimant is off to see them - that doesn't make sense?!?

HB isn't an issue for me, but good avice otherwise.


----------



## toggle (Dec 31, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> le sigh.
> 
> it's never simple is it.
> 
> ...



if you are entitled to continue recieving payment at the assessment rate, that will continue until the dwp get their arse in gear. i'm not sure from your posts whether you were expecting the change to happen before the week after's payment, or whether there wasn't going to be a payment the week after unless you win the tribunal. 

basically, there will be no change to the payment schedule that was in place already, for about 6 weeks.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Dec 31, 2013)

toggle said:


> if you are entitled to continue recieving payment at the assessment rate, that will continue until the dwp get their arse in gear. i'm not sure from your posts whether you were expecting the change to happen before the week after's payment, or whether there wasn't going to be a payment the week after unless you win the tribunal.
> 
> basically, there will be no change to the payment schedule that was in place already, for about 6 weeks.


Well, I was expecting that, pending a favourable outcome, the tribunal would notify the DWP and they would amend the payment system accordingly. I certainly, naively, didn't anticipate a massive delay for something that is largely already in place. Maybe I could ring them, again pending a favourable outcome, and ask them to clarify and then get another 'fit' note meanwhile. Thanks for the heads up.

There's always a sting in teh tail with the DWP.


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 31, 2013)

What is a fit note? Is it a new name for a sick note?


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> What is a fit note? Is it a new name for a sick note?


Aye, they were renamed and redeisgned somewhat.

Basically, it spells out what you can do in the opinion of the GP, instead of a blanket 'you're signed off until X date'. It's made no difference to me as when I have a kidney infection I can't do anything apart from throw up, I need to rest and let the meds work.


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 31, 2013)

liking the explanation, not the puky bit!


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 31, 2013)

Awesome Wells said:


> Well, I was expecting that, pending a favourable outcome, the tribunal would notify the DWP and they would amend the payment system accordingly. I certainly, naively, didn't anticipate a massive delay for something that is largely already in place. Maybe I could ring them, again pending a favourable outcome, and ask them to clarify and then get another 'fit' note meanwhile. Thanks for the heads up.
> 
> There's always a sting in teh tail with the DWP.


There are a number of posts on the thread talking about DWP delays. It certainly never hurts to be prepared for any delay with the DWP (sods law coming into play) so I would make sure there are no gaps between your fit notes - not even a day.

WouldBe certainly had delays, but that may have been just the backpayment they were due.


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 31, 2013)

geminisnake said:


> liking the explanation, not the puky bit!


That's ok 

They're not fun, kidney infections.

I'd be interested to know if the fit note has made any difference, because to my mind there can't be many medical conditions that mean you're fit to do some work (excluding pregnancy, of course). Can anyone think of an example?


----------



## Quartz (Jan 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'd be interested to know if the fit note has made any difference, because to my mind there can't be many medical conditions that mean you're fit to do some work (excluding pregnancy, of course). Can anyone think of an example?



Problems with your legs need not affect your upper body, so you could type or play a cello having a broken leg, for instance.


----------



## toggle (Jan 1, 2014)

i've gone into do cleaning work with the rampaging snots, but not done bar work that night.

but more what quartz has said, is i'm sure there are people who can do the sedentary part of a role with an injury, but not the more active parts. or maybee someone returning to work after surgery, able to sit and type but barred from lifting. there are some employers for whom I would want the paperwork spelling out that they can't just ask me to do a little bit, or risk my long term health by ignoring medical advice.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> There are a number of posts on the thread talking about DWP delays. It certainly never hurts to be prepared for any delay with the DWP (sods law coming into play) so I would make sure there are no gaps between your fit notes - not even a day.
> 
> WouldBe certainly had delays, but that may have been just the backpayment they were due.


First things first, I have to be awarded ESA! I hope they aren't going to take too long in getting a letter to me, but I remain skeptical. I did the best I could at the tribunal, but as with anything there's always a moment afterwards where you think perhaps you could have been clearer, said more, done something. I think I covered evertyhing, and they have all the paperwork which puts the case forward thanks to the CAB. Beyond that, it's in the hands of the flying spaghetti monster, but the thought of having to sign on again doesn't inspire me (much like today's weather, it's filthy outside).

Naively, but why on earth does this system have to be such a load of bullshit. Having to go to a court and convince an actula judge and a doctor i've never met before. This could easily be resolved by having a DWP meeting, at the local surgery, with you and your GP and then come to a mutual and informed decision. Instead you deal with faceless and target driven decision makers, a french insurance company that, locally, hides itself away on the top floor of a municipal building like the eye of sauron, and at no point do you really seem to have any say in your own future. All to save some Tory millioinaires a few quid in payouts to people.

Rant over. 

For now


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 1, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> What is a fit note? Is it a new name for a sick note?


Yes, the GP is meant to say what you can do, not what you can't.

In practice it's a silly idea. My GP wrote down what she thought was wrong with me and that was sent off. The notion that one can just ignore what's wrong with them and use the parts that do work is, at best, dangerous IMO. It's also hopeless, predictably, with respect to mental health.


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 1, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> There are a number of posts on the thread talking about DWP delays. It certainly never hurts to be prepared for any delay with the DWP (sods law coming into play) so I would make sure there are no gaps between your fit notes - not even a day.
> 
> WouldBe certainly had delays, but that may have been just the backpayment they were due.


It took several weeks for the DWP to sort out the payments. Got the DLA backpayment through fairly quickly after that but still waiting for the backpayment of ESA  and not heard anything about backpayment of severe disability while on JSA yet.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 1, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> It took several weeks for the DWP to sort out the payments. Got the DLA backpayment through fairly quickly after that but still waiting for the backpayment of ESA  and not heard anything about backpayment of severe disability while on JSA yet.


 useless fucks


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Yes, the GP is meant to say what you can do, not what you can't.



That's an interesting concept. How are you meant to be able to do anything if your mental state doesn't want to leave the house?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 1, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> That's an interesting concept. How are you meant to be able to do anything if your mental state doesn't want to leave the house?


It's all part of the paradigm of whitewashing illness. Probably straight out of the Unum playbook.

If we ignore what's wrong with a person, then there's nothing wrong with them!


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 1, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> That's an interesting concept. How are you meant to be able to do anything if your mental state doesn't want to leave the house?


Exactly - and the main problem with the descriptors used for these tests are that are in the main physical descriptors, mental health is not really covered by them, and various organisations such as MIND have pointed this out.

It does even really cover the mental health effects of medicines or physical illnesses. I can barely concentrate when I have a relapse due to effects of the meds and the infection on my mind yet such effects are ignored.

The fit note is all part of this culture - when people are unable to work they need rest and support, not being made to feel lazy.


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## Awesome Wells (Jan 2, 2014)

I feel like Schrodingers cat right now: am I entitled to ESA or not? Who knows!


----------



## Greebo (Jan 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I feel like Schrodingers cat right now: am I entitled to ESA or not? Who knows!


While there is uncertainty, there can still be hope.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 2, 2014)

Greebo said:


> While there is uncertainty, there can still be hope.


I have become a principle of theoretical physics in welfare benefit form.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

I'm shaking. The decision notice just arrived. It says 

1. The appeal is allowed.
2. The decision made 8/7/13 is set aisde.
3. I'm entitled to ESA with the work related activity component.

Have I won?


----------



## toggle (Jan 3, 2014)

you have esa. you're in the work related activity group. how that can work can be 'how long is a piece of string'. anything from an occasional interview to full time workfare. a lot of it depends which private org you get passed onto and how much they decide they can be bothered with you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

One battle at a time.

At least now I have some stability. If the Sally Ann start threatening me (they rang me just after i got the tribunal date) then maybe I can persuade my GP. I have a feeling he will be more amenable to support now that there is a legal decision on my side.

Or of course it could be out of the frying pan!

Thanks for all the support and assistance. Dealing with this  nightmare system, that alone is half the battle and 99% of the problem. I'm more convinced than ever now that if we take care, compassionately and without judgement, of people's need for an income, we could achieve a lot more in helping them.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm shaking. The decision notice just arrived. It says
> 
> 1. The appeal is allowed.
> 2. The decision made 8/7/13 is set aisde.
> ...



Yes. Nice one - You wanted to be in the work group didn't you rather than the support group?

I got exactly the same letter but mine also said "The Tribunal recommends that the Department does not reassess the appellant for 24 months" - Does your letter not have a time bit?

Congratulations though. You can relax. For a while anyway. The sun's past the yard arm so here's to ya.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> you have esa. you're in the work related activity group. how that can work can be 'how long is a piece of string'. anything from an occasional interview to full time workfare. a lot of it depends which private org you get passed onto and how much they decide they can be bothered with you.



I've been on WRAG ESA since last summer and I haven't had one single interview or anything. So far it's been just the same as being on incapacity. Which is a relief after all the bullshit I went through with signing on and that.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> Yes. Nice one - You wanted to be in the work group didn't you rather than the support group?
> 
> I got exactly the same letter but mine also said "The Tribunal recommends that the Department does not reassess the appellant for 24 months" - Does your letter not have a time bit?
> 
> ...


I saw no time limit. Not sure what to make of that. So they could reassess me next week for all I know (though surely not if it takes 6 weeks to process all this). 

I argued for the WRAG because I want support. I have never said I can't do anything. It's about finding the right kind of support and the right kind of occupation. That may well become my epitaph I suppose, but there's only so many options available. The support group is for people who really need it and I can't pretend I justify that.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've been on WRAG ESA since last summer and I haven't had one single interview or anything. So far it's been just the same as being on incapacity. Which is a relief after all the bullshit I went through with signing on and that.


And with bitter irony there are probably plenty of people in the support group getting retested month after month.


----------



## toggle (Jan 3, 2014)

there's people who know this side of it better than me, but afaik, you don't have to give them copies of things like your cv, you don't have to sign their documents. which makes it impossible for them to send you off to placements. the short version is don't sign anything or aggree to anyhting until you've checked out whether it is actually of benefit to you, or jsut for them


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

Correction: it says not to reassess me for at least 6 months. I can live with that.


----------



## toggle (Jan 3, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> I've been on WRAG ESA since last summer and I haven't had one single interview or anything. So far it's been just the same as being on incapacity. Which is a relief after all the bullshit I went through with signing on and that.



i think it can help if they think you're loopy, there's benefits to being able to convince idiots that they don't want to be in the same room as the crazy person. 


Awesome Wells said:


> Correction: it says not to reassess me for at least 6 months. I can live with that.



that is a recommendation, it's not binding. dwp have been known to demand instant reassessment of people who win appeals


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> i think it can help if they think you're loopy, there's benefits to being able to convince idiots that they don't want to be in the same room as the crazy person.
> 
> 
> that is a recommendation, it's not binding. dwp have been known to demand instant reassessment of people who win appeals


I hope that doesn't happen, however what else can I do? Win or lose this system is in such a mess that people are just fucked over regardless.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> i think it can help if they think you're loopy, there's benefits to being able to convince idiots that they don't want to be in the same room as the crazy person.
> 
> 
> *that is a recommendation, it's not binding. dwp have been known to demand instant reassessment of people who win appeals*



When I spoke to this (really helpful TBH) woman from the DWP place that deals with appeals in Birkenhead who sorted my backpay out and that, she assured me that the DWP would take the findings of the tribunal as gospel and I definitely wouldn't be reassessed until the two years was up. And so far they've stuck to it.


----------



## toggle (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I hope that doesn't happen, however what else can I do? Win or lose this system is in such a mess that people are just fucked over regardless.




you've done this once. you can do it again. 

thing is, from what you've said, you want to move towards work. the worst thing they could do is put you under so much stress that you can't cope with anyhting other than dealing with them.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

Er, do I still need fit notes? Mine expires around mid-late January IIRC. I just want to be clear.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

toggle said:


> you've done this once. you can do it again.
> 
> thing is, from what you've said, you want to move towards work. the worst thing they could do is put you under so much stress that you can't cope with anyhting other than dealing with them.


I'd rather not do it for at least 6 months if possible (it will be summer by then!).

And the DWP seem pretty keen to do the worst thing, thanks to the edicts of the Dark Lord of Chingford.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Er, do I still need fit notes? Mine expires around mid-late January IIRC. I just want to be clear.



I'm pretty sure you don't, but saying that don't take my word as gospel.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Er, do I still need fit notes? Mine expires around mid-late January IIRC. I just want to be clear.


No idea but I hope somebody else knows.  Anyone?


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 3, 2014)

According to Benefits & Work you don't (I knew you didn't for Support Group, but it appears WRAG is the same).  You only need them when you're on assessment rate, or in the process of appeal as far as I can tell.

Glad you got the result you wanted.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

That's what I thought as well.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> According to Benefits & Work you don't (I knew you didn't for Support Group, but it appears WRAG is the same).  You only need them when you're on assessment rate, or in the process of appeal as far as I can tell.
> 
> Glad you got the result you wanted.


Thanks. Let's hope that's the case. The paperwork says nothing, but it's not from the DWP.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 3, 2014)

is WRAG ESA paid at the same rate as the preassessment rate?


----------



## Celt (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells  You've won, enjoy the feeling of justification.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Jan 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> is WRAG ESA paid at the same rate as the preassessment rate?



Your money should end up being about a hundred pounds a week now mate. That's assuming you're single and not having any deductions taken out.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 4, 2014)

thanks.


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 4, 2014)

Don't know if this is useful to anybody, but here's the criteria used by DWP decision makers:

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 4, 2014)

Bakunin said:


> Don't know if this is useful to anybody, but here's the criteria used by DWP decision makers:
> 
> http://www.dwp.gov.uk/publications/specialist-guides/medical-conditions/a-z-of-medical-conditions/


That's the document Frumious B and me had a big fight about earlier in the thread.


----------



## Celt (Jan 17, 2014)

Just opened my post. I've been called for a benefit medical by ATOS on the 31st Jan  I assume this is PIP


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 17, 2014)

Celt said:


> Just opened my post. I've been called for a benefit medical by ATOS on the 31st Jan  I assume this is PIP


Does it say? Surely it should, you've only just had one!


----------



## Celt (Jan 17, 2014)

I


Celt said:


> Awesome Wells,
> 
> They said they were giving it me for the backdated year and a further year as in the evidence from the CMHT, they had said they were hoping to be able to help me improve my mental health situation.
> 
> *I have in the back of my head a bit of a concern that as I didn't meet the mobility descriptor fully (I had 9 points) that they may call me for review of DLA, which I have a lifetime award for now, but  that is just a tiny niggle*.



It is a face to face benefits medical assesment, as I said when I got my ESA (above) they are now coming for my DLA

Bastards


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm not sure it *can* be PIP, as it's still only being piloted, so unless you live in a pilot area;

Here's the info from Benefits & Work's "PIP timetable" page:

*********​
*PIP timetable*

*From April 2013*
The new timetable began with a pilot from 8th April 2013 for new claims to PIP for anyone aged 16 to 64 in the North West and part of the North East of England. Postcodes affected were:
CA, CH (except CH1, CH4, CH5, CH6, CH7 and CH8), LA (except LA2 7, LA2 8, LA6 2 and LA6 3), CW, FY, L, PR, WA, WN, BL, DH, DL (except DL6, DL7, DL8, DL9, DL10 and DL11), M, NE, SR, and TS (except TS9).

*From June 2013*
From 10 June 2013, all new claims from anyone aged 16-64 will be for PIP instead of DLA throughout  the whole of Great Britain.

The only exception will be renewal claims from a fixed term DLA award which is due to expire before 17th March 2014, where the renewal claim will still be for DLA rather than PIP. They will be invited to claim PIP at a later stage if their entitlement continues.

*From 28 October 2013*
From 28 October 2013, reassessment of some existing DLA claimants will start in Wales, West Midlands, East Midlands or East Anglia. 

The postcodes affected are: B, CF, CH1, CH4, CH5, CH6, CH7, CH8, CV, DE, DY, GL16, HR, IP, LD, LE, LL, LN, NG, NN, NP, NR, PE, SA, ST, SY, TF, WR, WS and WV

The DWP will start to invite the following current DLA recipients to claim PIP:

•those with fixed period DLA awards which expire on or after 17th March 2014;
•children turning 16;
• those with a reported change of circumstances which might affect their rate of payment, such as an improvement or deterioration in their condition, but not issues like going into a care home or hospital or changing address; and
•existing DLA claimants aged 16-64 who wish to make a PIP claim, including people who have a fixed-term or indefinite award of DLA.

*From 13 January 2014*
In December 2013, the government has announced that PIP reassessment areas are being extended to southern Scotland and parts of the borders from *13th January 2014*. The postcode areas affected begin DG, ML, EH and TD

They are then being further extended on *3rd February 2014* in the north of England to postcode areas LA, CA, DL, HG and YO.

This means that if your DLA award is due to end on or after 17th March 2014, you will receive an invitation to make a claim for PIP rather than renew your claim to DLA.

Further announcements about reassessment areas will be made throughout 2014.

Please return to this page as we will update it when we know more.

F*rom October 2015*
From October 2015, everyone still getting DLA will be invited to claim for PIP.  Claimants will be selected randomly rather than by area or age, although the DWP say that they will _“invite claims as early as possible from recipients who have turned 65 after 8 April 2013, when PIP was first introduced.”_

*By October 2017*
All existing DLA claimants (aged 16 to 64 on 8 April 2013) will have been invited to claim PIP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2014)

Celt I think they may have stuck you back on the ESA merry-go-round.  It's been known to happen in cases where people win at tribunal, the nasty vindictive fucks!


----------



## toggle (Jan 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Celt I think they may have stuck you back on the ESA merry-go-round.  It's been known to happen in cases where people win at tribunal, the nasty vindictive fucks!



it's bene known to happen so much that the chair of bakunin's tribunal warned us that it as a possibility


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 17, 2014)

They should at least tell you what benefit this in relation to, surely?

This is beyond fucked up.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Jan 17, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Celt I think they may have stuck you back on the ESA merry-go-round.  It's been known to happen in cases where people win at tribunal, the nasty vindictive fucks!



if it is ESA and your appeal winning letter said you were ok for a certain period of time and that time has not yet elapsed, i'm think you can just contact them and insist that you're not due yet and they will back down (eventually). i'm sure someone else on urban did that not too long ago.


----------



## Celt (Jan 17, 2014)

waiting for a call back from my local DWP office,  it is for ESA and is a response to the renewal form I filled in in July.

ATOS say they can't cancel it.

I spke to DWP(ESA) Hull and the Grimsby who say they haven't requested it,  have spoken to the Blackpool office that deal with DLA, the say they haven't requested it.

Fucktartds


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 17, 2014)

I'm sure they could, if they gave a damn.Good luck.

There's always been a relationship between ATOS and the DWP that seems to be about passing the buck. I first had to deal with them in 2010; I wanted to change my appointment by a month and they said I could. In fact I rang back, twice, spoke to 2 different advisors who both said the same thing, that I could. Didn't stop them causing my benefit to get stopped (it was sorted out very quickly thankfully, the DWP were on the ball that day) - even though I didn't actually change the appointment in the end, nor miss it.


----------



## Celt (Jan 17, 2014)

Well the local office have been in touch and tell me they have cancelled it.  i have asked them to put this in writing, I spoke to Pauline, not allowed to know her surname, she said ATOS would write to me,  hmmm


----------



## Greebo (Jan 17, 2014)

Celt said:


> Well the local office have been in touch and tell me they have cancelled it. <snip>


Here's hoping that the medical really has been cancelled, so that you can concentrate on looking after yourself.  BTW well done on remembering to get her name, as well as (I assume) noting the approximate time and date of the call.  

It makes it very difficult for the people at that end to deny what was said to you later on as long as you keep track of those things (AFAIK they have to record the calls for training purposes anyway).


----------



## laptop (Jan 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> (AFAIK they have to record the calls for training purposes anyway).



Isn't it that they have to warn you that they *may* record the calls for training purposes?


----------



## Greebo (Jan 17, 2014)

laptop said:


> Isn't it that they have to warn you that they *may* record the calls for training purposes?


Every time I've been on the phone with them it was "will" not "may".


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 17, 2014)

Shouldn't be too difficult for Pauline to write something; she doesn't want for pens.


----------



## laptop (Jan 17, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Every time I've been on the phone with them it was "will" not "may".



Bet they can't find the tape if it's necessary, though


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 17, 2014)

laptop said:


> Bet they can't find the tape if it's necessary, though



Not so easy to lose them nowadays (back in the day the audio was recorded to video-cassette, as I recall), as it's all recorded as mp3s to a fuck-off array of hard-drives, so to "lose" one call would mean losing several thousand at the same time.


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Here's hoping that the medical really has been cancelled, so that you can concentrate on looking after yourself.  BTW well done on remembering to get her name, as well as (I assume) noting the approximate time and date of the call.
> 
> It makes it very difficult for the people at that end to deny what was said to you later on as long as you keep track of those things (AFAIK they have to record the calls for training purposes anyway).


 Record it yourself just to make sure.

I've got an A4E telephone appointment on Mon (even though I'm in the support group) this will be recorded. I'll also point out they are harassing me.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 18, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> Record it yourself just to make sure.
> 
> I've got an A4E telephone appointment on Mon (even though I'm in the support group) this will be recorded. I'll also point out they are harassing me.


Very good idea. I'm sure they would argue there's some legal bollocks to being recorded (which i'm sure doesn't apply if they ring you). Just make sure the recorder is as near to the receiving speaker as possible because it's really quiet otherwise (IME).

I recorded my conversations with the Salvation Army when I attended 2 WP appointments. Gotta love Soundcloud


----------



## Quartz (Jan 18, 2014)

I wonder... if they are recording you, are you able to demand a copy of the recording?


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 18, 2014)

Ugh. 9 months since I got my ESA renewed, 14 months since I last filled in the questionnaire and a new one arrived in the sodding post today.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 18, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I wonder... if they are recording you, are you able to demand a copy of the recording?


Don't see why not, even if you have to quote the freedom of information (FOI) act at 'em.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Don't see why not, even if you have to quote the freedom of information (FOI) act at 'em.


Data Protection Act would probably have more weight as it's personal information-related.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Very good idea. I'm sure they would argue there's some legal bollocks to being recorded (which i'm sure doesn't apply if they ring you). Just make sure the recorder is as near to the receiving speaker as possible because it's really quiet otherwise (IME).
> 
> I recorded my conversations with the Salvation Army when I attended 2 WP appointments. Gotta love Soundcloud


There's a whole bunch of posts about recordings earlier on in this thread, yardbird looked into it.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 18, 2014)

That seems to pertain to recording the WCA interview, not recording a phone call with them.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> That seems to pertain to recording the WCA interview, not recording a phone call with them.


There's a whole load of stuff somewhere on here, I remember looking at some recent case law on illicit recordings and writing about it.


----------



## WouldBe (Jan 19, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Very good idea. I'm sure they would argue there's some legal bollocks to being recorded (which i'm sure doesn't apply if they ring you). Just make sure the recorder is as near to the receiving speaker as possible because it's really quiet otherwise (IME).
> 
> I recorded my conversations with the Salvation Army when I attended 2 WP appointments. Gotta love Soundcloud


 My Dictaphone has an adaptor that plugs into the phone line. 

I suffer from memory loss. The DWP work psychologist says I should record everything. I'd like to see them get round that.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 19, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> My Dictaphone has an adaptor that plugs into the phone line.
> 
> I suffer from memory loss. The DWP work psychologist says I should record everything. I'd like to see them get round that.


I'm no lawyer, but I would assume that anyone has the right to record incoming calls on their property.

Seems the smae principle used by legions of youtubers to claim they have every right to film people that knock at their door (admitteldy some of these people are a bit kooky).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 19, 2014)

You have an implicit right to record/film on your own property.
However, you need the permission of the other party if you wish to *publish or disseminate* your recording.
In that way, it's no different than a photographer getting a model release form signed.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 20, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You have an implicit right to record/film on your own property.
> However, you need the permission of the other party if you wish to *publish or disseminate* your recording.
> In that way, it's no different than a photographer getting a model release form signed.



No problem then if you're recording just for the purposes of clarification when ATOS take the piss.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> No problem then if you're recording just for the purposes of clarification when ATOS take the piss.



Pretty much, although obviously Atos and the DWP have briefed their staff that *you* recording *them*without their explicit permission is illegal (it isn't), so most of them will kick up a stink *if* you tell them that you'll be recording them.


----------



## Celt (Jan 25, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> Ugh. 9 months since I got my ESA renewed, 14 months since I last filled in the questionnaire and a new one arrived in the sodding post today.



I'm really sorry to hear that.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> Ugh. 9 months since I got my ESA renewed, 14 months since I last filled in the questionnaire and a new one arrived in the sodding post today.


Sorry to hear that. Was there a time limit imposed for reconsideration the last time? If so, you should remind them that you're not due to be called for interview yet.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 26, 2014)

I wonder when I'll get my next DLA inquisition.
"Please refer to previous form, date ???
Mark down as everything being ?%  worse and you've got it"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 26, 2014)

yardbird said:


> I wonder when I'll get my next DLA inquisition.
> "Please refer to previous form, date ???
> Mark down as everything being ?%  worse and you've got it"



Perhaps add "get a medical dictionary, and look up the definition of a 'progressive illness', you knuckleheads!".


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 30, 2014)

more an ESA question than atos, but thought I'd bung it here

the friend I've mentioned once or twice has been offered a part time (may be up to 30 hours a week) job.

obviously he's going to 'sign off' ESA (and I've suggested working tax credits) - but has some concerns

a) will the fact he's taken a job be held against him if it doesn't work out and he has to go back on to ESA?

b) is there a 'rapid reclaim' system, or will he have to go through all the atos shit again?  (although to be honest, he must be about due a review)

He's been in the 'support group', and job is something he's found, not something that has been suggested through any work programme / adviser


----------



## Awesome Wells (Jan 31, 2014)

There's supposed to be a system of 'permitted work' where you can agree with the DWP a job that doesn't jeopardise a claim. Unfortunately i don't know the details and i think it might be limited hours.

So, er, that was helpful wasn't it


----------



## yardbird (Jan 31, 2014)

You may like this:
http://samedifference1.com/2014/01/30/should-atos-be-calling-you-for-an-assessment/


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 1, 2014)

yardbird said:


> You may like this:
> http://samedifference1.com/2014/01/30/should-atos-be-calling-you-for-an-assessment/


Asperger peeps shouldn't attend the assessment centre. 

Interesting.

I have a diagnostic appointment on friday for asperger diagnosis.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Asperger peeps shouldn't attend the assessment centre.
> 
> Interesting.
> 
> I have a diagnostic appointment on friday for asperger diagnosis.


Let us know how you get on. I hope it is helpful to you.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 1, 2014)

i will but I may have screwed up because i forgot to reply within the time limit. Hopefully this will not be a problem.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> i will but I may have screwed up because i forgot to reply within the time limit. Hopefully this will not be a problem.


But you forgot because of your ongoing medical issues, did you not?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 1, 2014)

I'd like to think so,reading letters as thoroughly as I should is symptomatic of my experience. 

That's my sad excuse anyway.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2014)

I'm filling out a form on behalf of someone with ME and I can't work out what the hell to put for the 'how far can you walk' question. It's ridiculous, who the fuck measures how far they can walk every day? The work and benefits guide talks about framing in a way that relates to activities like shopping. Shall I put in 'I can walk 100 metres on a good day, 50 on a medium day and sod all on a bad day' or 'I can go to the shop near my home but only buy a small bag of items, I have to take breaks and when I get home again I have to rest before putting the items away.'  What's more there's no room for nuance at all, like if I (I being my friend) have done something else before I walked somewhere, like cooking it will effect how far I can walk on that day, be it a good or medium one, on a bad day even getting out of bed is out of the question. Making people who are ill do  this bullshit is bordering on barbarism. I'm not even unwell and it's doing my fucking head in!

'How long can you stand on your head, poke yourself in the eye and blow bubbles out your arse?' - 7 hours

Next!

Arrrgh! Fuck Off!!!!!!


----------



## Greebo (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm filling out a form on behalf of someone with ME and I can't work out what the hell to put for the 'how far can you walk' question. It's ridiculous, who the fuck measures how far they can walk every day? The work and benefits guide talks about framing in a way that relates to activities like shopping. Shall I put in 'I can walk 100 metres on a good day, 50 on a medium day and sod all on a bad day' or 'I can go to the shop near my home but only buy a small bag of items, I have to take breaks and when I get home again I have to rest before putting the items away.'  What's more there's no room for nuance at all, like if I (I being my friend) have done something else before I walked somewhere, like cooking it will effect how far I can walk on that day, be it a good or medium one, on a bad day even getting out of bed is out of the question. Making people who are ill do  this bullshit is bordering on barbarism. I'm not even unwell and it's doing my fucking head in!<snip>


ViolentPanda


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2014)

It's ok I think I'm a bit more on the right track with it now.  They're sneaky fucking bastards.


----------



## Libertad (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> It's ok I think I'm a bit more on the right track with it now.  They're sneaky fucking bastards.



Yes they are.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 2, 2014)

Tbh - it's what I'm struggling with. I am also feeling better than I was - but not if I add any activity. So I'm feeling more fraudulent than usual. 


Anyone know if they'll notice if I just word for word my last form?


----------



## Quartz (Feb 2, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> Anyone know if they'll notice if I just word for word my last form?



If your situation has not changed then why not reuse it? You might add at certain points 
, 'This has not changed since I last completed this form on X.'


----------



## WouldBe (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> 'I can go to the shop near my home but only buy a small bag of items, I have to take breaks and when I get home again I have to rest before putting the items away.


Word it this way. Examples should always be done as if it's your worst day possible. Emphasise the pain it causes in walking short distances and how long you need to rest before putting things away. Your friend should be able to walk no further than 50M before needing to take a break and preferably shorter than that. If the pain is so severe it causes your friend to throw up then say so, that always goes down well especially at tribunals.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2014)

Thank you WouldBe but you see this is the problem I have. People on the ME support group say don't word it on your worst day because it looks like you're trying to ham it up, even though on her worst day she can't get out of bed.  I'm just going by what she feels most of the time and that's in pain and knackered.

I'm trying not to get wound up by it because it doesn't help and she'll feel guilty because it's taking up quite a lot of my time and that doesn't help her.  However she won't see this so.....

ARRRGH!!!! WHAT A BUNCH OF SNIVELLING LITTLE CUNTS! VICIOUS, VICIOUS FUCKS MAKING ILL PEOPLE JUMP THROUGH THESE BULLSHIT HOOPS JUST TO KEEP THIS POXY FUCKING NEO LIBERAL ARSE DRIBBLING AFLOAT!!!!!! ARRGGHHHH!!!! 

Ahhhhh......that's better


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm filling out a form on behalf of someone with ME and I can't work out what the hell to put for the 'how far can you walk' question. It's ridiculous, who the fuck measures how far they can walk every day? The work and benefits guide talks about framing in a way that relates to activities like shopping. Shall I put in 'I can walk 100 metres on a good day, 50 on a medium day and sod all on a bad day' or 'I can go to the shop near my home but only buy a small bag of items, I have to take breaks and when I get home again I have to rest before putting the items away.'  What's more there's no room for nuance at all, like if I (I being my friend) have done something else before I walked somewhere, like cooking it will effect how far I can walk on that day, be it a good or medium one, on a bad day even getting out of bed is out of the question. Making people who are ill do  this bullshit is bordering on barbarism. I'm not even unwell and it's doing my fucking head in!
> 
> 'How long can you stand on your head, poke yourself in the eye and blow bubbles out your arse?' - 7 hours
> 
> ...



Just to give you some idea of what's worked for me, I answer the basic questions (in terms of the tick boxes), then add (in the "tell us more" section) "please see additional sheet #...", and give them chapter and verse on the additional sheet.  I do this for every section of the form that requires it.  It's a fair bit of extra work, but it allows you to inject some nuance.  You should also aim to note what you're capable of as what you're able to do on your *WORST* day, not your best or your average day (despite what they ask).  Also, try to write from the POV of "what I'm unable to do, unless", rather than "I can sometimes do that, but..." as they'll only pay attention to "I can do that".

Also, w/r/t walking, I always put exactly what's up - that I can't walk at all without pain, and that the pain (and the *additional* fatigue that the pain causes) gets worse (and more fatiguing) the more I walk. I then put down my worst time and distance.  I don't mention what I can do on a good day, because they *will* automatically apply that to *ALL* your days.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> It's ok I think I'm a bit more on the right track with it now.  They're sneaky fucking bastards.



If you think that the ESA50 is bad for sneakiness, you should have seen the DLA forms.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks a lot VP.  I think ME is quite an easy condition to explain now that I think I've understood this form.  On her worst day she can do fuck all, can't even get out of bed and if she has to it involves crawling, slowly.  I'm gonna give an example of the sort of things I'm doing for every question.  I'll give the walking example, name changed for privacy.  In fact I'll PM you.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thank you WouldBe but you see this is the problem I have. People on the ME support group say don't word it on your worst day because it looks like you're trying to ham it up, even though on her worst day she can't get out of bed.


It's not hamming it up if it's the truth! the CAB also say this is how you should answer it.


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## equationgirl (Feb 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thanks a lot VP.  I think ME is quite an easy condition to explain now that I think I've understood this form.  On her worst day she can do fuck all, can't even get out of bed and if she has to it involves crawling, slowly.  I'm gonna give an example of the sort of things I'm doing for every question.  I'll give the walking example, name changed for privacy.  In fact I'll PM you.


Also if she takes any medicines, list all of them and their side effects. If you PM me a list I can do this for you.

Take special note of any that have the same side effect as they'll likely work together to make that side effect worse.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 2, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> It's not hamming it up if it's the truth! the CAB also say this is how you should answer it.



Yeah I've gone with what she experiences most of the time, which is essentially she can do bugger all without experiencing symptoms and anything she does do makes it worse causing her to rest to get back to the level of general acheyness, fatigue etc. VP is helping me out via PM.




			
				equationgirl said:
			
		

> Also if she takes any medicines, list all of them and their side effects. If you PM me a list I can do this for you.
> 
> Take special note of any that have the same side effect as they'll like work together to make that side effect worse.



I don't think she takes any meds but I'll take you up on that if it transpires she does, thanks!


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## WouldBe (Feb 3, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> It's not hamming it up if it's the truth! the CAB also say this is how you should answer it.


My solicitor advised me to do this as well and he used to work for the DWP.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 3, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> My solicitor advised me to do this as well and he used to work for the DWP.


I think, though not wishing to presume, it's what most people are advising. 

Atos assesors (tossers, for short?) may try to discourage your answers at an assessment if you start by saying "on my worst day I feel..." by trying to ask you how you feel there and then, in the moment. Is that the correct procedure? 

You need to correlate the symptoms/problems to the descriptors and give evidence that backs this up (which means the doctors have to do likewise).


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2014)

You also have to think of yourself when you were well, or compare yourself to people who are well. Otherwise you just get too used to making do, even when you're actually causing yourself pain or making your condition worse. 

My local council has a bit on its housing page where they say someone with rheumatoid arthritis (which I have) doesn't merit an upgrade because they can manage the steps outside their house. I can, and so can most people with any mobility in their upper limbs, because at my worst I can crawl up the steps, even though that causes me a lot of pain because my elbows, shoulders and hands are fucked. And it takes a long time and, despite what my council say on the same housing page, RA is a progressive condition. 

It's not the same as my grandad needing to actually be carried up and down any stairs, but it's also not the same as just striding up them.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 3, 2014)

Very good point, sam. I'm writing it on someone else's behalf and I'm trying to do it along the lines of 'right, I'm sitting here and I'm conscious that I'm not in any pain or feeling tired. I can go into the kitchen and make myself a sandwich and a cup of tea, then I could pop down the shops for some milk and a pack of smokes, pop back and then call my mum. I can do that when I want, however many times I want and there's not going to be any consequences in terms of pain and fatigue to these actions. Can my friend do these things whenever she wants? No because she is in pain/tired the majority of the time and doing anything increases those symptoms.' 

It's the 'you must be able to do the activity safely, to an acceptable standard, as often as you need to and in a reasonable length of time' that really needs to be paid attention to.  If one or more of these things apply then you can't do it.

I'm also going with not ticking any boxes and just going straight for explanations because if I, say, tick 'can move 50 metres' I'm saying my friend can do that with no issue at all. She of course can do this because like most people with chronic conditions she just muddles through.  It's because she can't do this without feeling any symptoms, because she feels them all the time, I haven't ticked it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just to give you some idea of what's worked for me, I answer the basic questions (in terms of the tick boxes), then add (in the "tell us more" section) "please see additional sheet #...", and give them chapter and verse on the additional sheet.  I do this for every section of the form that requires it.  It's a fair bit of extra work, but it allows you to inject some nuance.  You should also aim to note what you're capable of as what you're able to do on your *WORST* day, not your best or your average day (despite what they ask).  Also, try to write from the POV of "what I'm unable to do, unless", rather than "I can sometimes do that, but..." as they'll only pay attention to "I can do that".
> 
> Also, w/r/t walking, I always put exactly what's up - that I can't walk at all without pain, and that the pain (and the *additional* fatigue that the pain causes) gets worse (and more fatiguing) the more I walk. I then put down my worst time and distance.  I don't mention what I can do on a good day, because they *will* automatically apply that to *ALL* your days.



Only thing with this, is there a risk that some snooper will then watch you on a (possibly quite rare) 'not so bad day' and you get done for 'fraud'?  (or that some cunt of a neighbour will shop you)?

Some time ago (we've lost contact now so I don't know how he's doing in the ATOS era) I had a friend who had a condition where he could occasionally walk unaided (although not often and not for very long), often used a walking stick, sometimes used a wheelchair, and on some days could not move at all and was on so much morphine that he really didn't know what the fuck was going on.  I think he had some bother about it a few years back. 

The system does not seem able to cope with variable conditions at all.  And as I've said before, the prevailing attitude seems to be that you' shouldn't get benefits unless you're 100% sick / disabled, but you shouldn't get / keep a job if you're anything less than 100% well.  Which leaves a lot of people in no-person's land.

(and incidentally, cross posting from another thread - don't have a heart attack during your ATOS medical - you are likely to get sanctioned for 'withdrawing from the assessment'.  more here)

I really have run out of swear words for this lot.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 3, 2014)

Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....

How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?


----------



## purenarcotic (Feb 3, 2014)

You can say that the inability to concentrate means that thinking logically and clearly can be difficult which means that simple tasks such as filling out forms etc takes longer and is more difficult. 

Does your friend find finding the 'right word' difficult too?  That will have an impact on their ability to be understood properly which can obviously cause problems.


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## equationgirl (Feb 3, 2014)

Paging Greebo ViolentPanda


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## Greebo (Feb 3, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....
> 
> How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?


With difficulty and repetition,
Doc Carrot Doc Carrot,
With difficulty and repetition,
Doc Carrot, repetition. 

More seriously, think about a normal activity eg answering the phone at home and how difficult that is unless the PWME (person with ME) has no background noise, nobody moving around them as they take the call, and are not attempting any other activity (not even checking a diary or noting down the details of the call) at the same time.

I'm sure VP can fill in a few more of the gaps for you.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 3, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> You can say that the inability to concentrate means that thinking logically and clearly can be difficult which means that simple tasks such as filling out forms etc takes longer and is more difficult.
> 
> Does your friend find finding the 'right word' difficult too?  That will have an impact on their ability to be understood properly which can obviously cause problems.



Thanks. I've covered this in the physical section though.  

I personally think a lot of the questions don't reply and she kind of agrees but I don't wanna put words in her mouth. I know everyone's different but was just wondering if anyone here has, or has done forms, for people with ME and how they tackled it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Well I thought it was all going great until I reached the mental section....
> 
> How on earth do I get across issues to do with 'brain fog' and inability to concentrate which is caused by ME?



The way I tend to describe it is "cognitive difficulties", of which a form of aphasia/word blindness is often a component, and which becomes more prevalent, the greater the degree of fatigue/pain/weakness being experienced by the sufferer. 
Last time I was interviewed for a DLA renewal by an EMP (Examining Medical Practitioner), I described "brainfog" to her as (I'm paraphrasing, obviously!) "imagine you're trying to convey the concept 'window' to someone, without remembering that the word 'window' exists. You may end up pointing to a window and saying 'that thing', but your ability to think clearly is so compromised that you're unable to connect the concept to the word. Add to that a compromised short-term memory due to the same pain/fatigue/weakness, and the fact that your senses often go haywire/over-sensitive and feed you what feels like far too much input, even if the input is at a normal level, and doing simple stuff like making a phonecall or answering one can become a physical and mental obstacle course".


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 3, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Only thing with this, is there a risk that some snooper will then watch you on a (possibly quite rare) 'not so bad day' and you get done for 'fraud'?  (or that some cunt of a neighbour will shop you)?
> 
> Some time ago (we've lost contact now so I don't know how he's doing in the ATOS era) I had a friend who had a condition where he could occasionally walk unaided (although not often and not for very long), often used a walking stick, sometimes used a wheelchair, and on some days could not move at all and was on so much morphine that he really didn't know what the fuck was going on.  I think he had some bother about it a few years back.
> 
> ...



"Some neighbour" tried to shop me. 
"Fortunately" for me, I'm moderately severely-affected *and* have several other health problems (incl. leg and back damage), so getting out and about isn't something I'm able to do much, unless it involves going to my GP surgery, or attending a hospital appt.  If Doctor Carrot's friend is as ill as she sounds, she'll have a similar problem getting out and about, even if she lives somewhere accessible.

You're absolutely right, though, about the system (or rather ATOS's wanky software) being unable to cope with variable conditions. It's also pisspoor at coping with the idea of multiple conditions, let alone how multiple conditions can synergise into a sickness/disability sum that's greater than its component parts. 
This is why I advocate to anyone filling in forms for sickness/disabilities benefits to load their forms down with detail.  The more you send them, the smaller the leeway an adjudication officer has to put you on the list for an ATOS assessment.


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## Greebo (Feb 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> <snip> This is why I advocate to anyone filling in forms for sickness/disabilities benefits to load their forms down with detail.  The more you send them, the smaller the leeway an adjudication officer has to put you on the list for an ATOS assessment.


As many on this thread and elsewhere will confirm, repeatedly adding this level of detail (on extra sheets, whenever necessary) is a long and cheerless task, but it pays off.


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## equationgirl (Feb 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> As many on this thread and elsewhere will confirm, repeatedly adding this level of detail (on extra sheets, whenever necessary) is a long and cheerless task, but it pays off.


Couldn't agree more with this post and the esteemed Mr Panda's above - drown them in detail. They want information, they'll get information. More than they know what to do with.

They rely on you meekly ticking the boxes (for a form already known not to work with questions that are stacked against anyone with a variable chronic condition), so that the information can be fed into the crappest most expensive software that the taxpayer could rent, all to obtain ridiculous decisions based on sand.

If you haven't already, make sure you request a home visit for your friend, and ask for it to be recorded. Be prepared to phone up a couple of times before the date to confirm that it is booked as a home visit and that recording equipment has also been booked. If a home visit is booked, make sure someone can take notes on behalf of your friend and can act as an observer. 

Is she on any meds?

Also, send the form back recorded/signed for delivery so that you know they have received it, and make sure a copy is made before it is sent back.


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## Greebo (Feb 3, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> <snip> Be prepared to phone up a couple of times before the date to confirm that it is booked as a home visit and that recording equipment has also been booked. If a home visit is booked, make sure someone can take notes on behalf of your friend and can act as an observer. <snip>


IMHO recordings and having somebody there (as a witness/chaperone/advocate) should be standard practice with anybody who is potentially vulnerable due to ill health or disability, but this goes in spades for anyone with a memory problem or who becomes easily confused or upset when under pressure.


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## equationgirl (Feb 3, 2014)

Greebo said:


> IMHO recordings and having somebody there (as a witness/chaperone/advocate) should be standard practice with anybody who is potentially vulnerable due to ill health or disability, but this goes in spades for anyone with a memory problem or who becomes easily confused or upset when under pressure.


In all honesty, this sort of thing should be done as standard for everyone. But that would cost money and we can't be having that. All the budget has been blown on crap software.


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## purenarcotic (Feb 3, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thanks. I've covered this in the physical section though.
> 
> I personally think a lot of the questions don't reply and she kind of agrees but I don't wanna put words in her mouth. I know everyone's different but was just wondering if anyone here has, or has done forms, for people with ME and how they tackled it?



Don't worry about repeating yourself, the more you ram the point home the better.


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## Greebo (Feb 3, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> Don't worry about repeating yourself, the more you ram the point home the better.


Word.  

Anyway, a lot of M.E.'s effects are both physical and mental at the same time:  If physically fatigued, it's difficult to think straight or remember things; if upset, worn out, or under stress, physical coordination and physical strength worsen quite noticeably.


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## existentialist (Feb 4, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> In all honesty, this sort of thing should be done as standard for everyone. But that would cost money and we can't be having that. All the budget has been blown on crap software.


I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 4, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.


 
And so clever, too; it avoids the real culprits having to admit their guilt. /cynic mode


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## CNT36 (Feb 5, 2014)

Talked to someone at work yesterday who is in from an agency. He hurt his back and a Doctor misdiagnosed it as more serious than it was. He took time off work started getting better went back and the original diagnosis was rectified. In the mean time ATOS got involved and refused to let him return to work. He was fired from his full time job and quickly replaced by someone on a three month contract. He got Doctors letters that explained everything but the management said it was to late and he'd already been replaced. He contacted ATOS who said there was nothing he could do and he had been out of work since apart from a short contract and more recent agency work. He got moved on to JSA got the short term contract but when he finished was told he couldn't have JSA anymore as his wife's  cleaning job paid too much. He'd loved his job and ATOS screwed him out of it.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 5, 2014)

existentialist said:


> I think we need to recognise that the "crap software" is actually Very Good software, in that it achieves *exactly* what the DWP is setting out to do - disqualify entitled people from benefits.


Maybe, but software is never going to replace caring and compassionate diagnostic work and that can only come from a human being. Ticking boxes is a very poor substitute, as we all know.


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## Frances Lengel (Feb 5, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> more an ESA question than atos, but thought I'd bung it here
> 
> the friend I've mentioned once or twice has been offered a part time (may be up to 30 hours a week) job.
> 
> ...



When it was incapacity benefit, the answer was no. Both employee and enployer had a 6 month window to say "Nah, this aint working oout -let's call it a no fault divorce". And the claimainnt could go back to the original level of claim. Fuck knows how that works with esa though.

Allmpowere to you though.


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> Talked to someone at work yesterday who is in from an agency. He hurt his back and a Doctor misdiagnosed it as more serious than it was. He took time off work started getting better went back and the original diagnosis was rectified. In the mean time ATOS got involved and refused to let him return to work. He was fired from his full time job and quickly replaced by someone on a three month contract. He got Doctors letters that explained everything but the management said it was to late and he'd already been replaced. He contacted ATOS who said there was nothing he could do and he had been out of work since apart from a short contract and more recent agency work. He got moved on to JSA got the short term contract but when he finished was told he couldn't have JSA anymore as his wife's  cleaning job paid too much. He'd loved his job and ATOS screwed him out of it.


Why did ATOS refuse to let him return to work? Seems to be their main aim!


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Maybe, but software is never going to replace caring and compassionate diagnostic work and that can only come from a human being. Ticking boxes is a very poor substitute, as we all know.


Never mind caring and compassionate, it's not even vaguely accurate!


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 5, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Never mind caring and compassionate, it's not even vaguely accurate!


Of course not. The whole thing is so ridiculous it would be funny if it wasn't so desperately tragic and if it didn't have such a devastating effect on real people. Quote why the medical profession has allowed itself to be disenfranchised and raduced by the government I don't know. The word of a doctor, perhas with supporting evidence from a specialist, should be more than enough. Taking the matter out the hands of the patient's doctor/specialists is pernicious to say the least, and of course expensive. 

Plus the receptionist at the local ATOS gulag is a right mardy cow!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Why did ATOS refuse to let him return to work? Seems to be their main aim!



You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies.  There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.


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## CNT36 (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies.  There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.


I didn't want to push him for too much information but from what he said it was such a service. He was told if he couldn't do certain things then he could fuck off. It just happened to fit with the companies pattern of getting rid of a full timers (this one with 20+ years on the job) with people on short term contracts.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 6, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> I didn't want to push him for too much information but from what he said it was such a service. He was told if he couldn't do certain things then he could fuck off. It just happened to fit with the companies pattern of getting rid of a full timers (this one with 20+ years on the job) with people on short term contracts.



Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?


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## CNT36 (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?


I don't think so. I didn't really want to ask too many questions as I don't know him very well.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> You forget that besides doing "assessments" for the DWP, ATOS also provide workplace health/occupational therapy services for many large companies.  There have been aseries of stories in the press about people who've been put into medical retirement due to the ATOSsers, only to be denied ESA by another ATOSser.


I did forget that, thanks for reminding me. 

Wankers.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Has he taken legal advice as to whether his dismissal was sound?


From that little bit of information is sounds very dodgy - there also been recent case law which has underlined more what an employer's responsibilities are towards dismissing those with a chronic condition. The case law summary was very clear that an employer can obtain a third party medical report but should not just rely upon it without question.
http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ac217788-db1e-4f68-9292-e69d38a72fbe


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> I don't think so. I didn't really want to ask too many questions as I don't know him very well.


Tell him about us


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## CNT36 (Feb 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Tell him about us


I might do if he comes back. Might wait until a few pages have passed as I don't really want him (or anyone at work) knowing my online shenanigans as I've put quite personal stuff on this thread and others over the years.

If any of you have any information I could give him in the meantime on where he stands legally it would be appreciated.


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## CNT36 (Feb 6, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> From that little bit of information is sounds very dodgy - there also been recent case law which has underlined more what an employer's responsibilities are towards dismissing those with a chronic condition. The case law summary was very clear that an employer can obtain a third party medical report but should not just rely upon it without question.
> http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ac217788-db1e-4f68-9292-e69d38a72fbe


 


equationgirl said:


> From that little bit of information is sounds very dodgy - there also been recent case law which has underlined more what an employer's responsibilities are towards dismissing those with a chronic condition. The case law summary was very clear that an employer can obtain a third party medical report but should not just rely upon it without question.
> http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ac217788-db1e-4f68-9292-e69d38a72fbe


 There was a mention of him getting another role in the past tense as he left the building. Even I thought that was a bit dodgy. He was told he could of done X job instead but it's too late now so on yet bike. He said he would of bitten their hands off if the offer was actually made.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> I might do if he comes back. Might wait until a few pages have passed as I don't really want him (or anyone at work) knowing my online shenanigans as I've put quite personal stuff on this thread and others over the years.
> 
> If any of you have any information I could give him in the meantime on where he stands legally it would be appreciated.


If he's in a union he should approach them. Otherwise, I'd advise him to have an initial meeting with a solicitor who specialises in employment law. Without knowing the full facts of the case it's difficult to really be specific, but he should seek legal advice as soon as he can. A lot will offer no win no fee for tribunal cases.


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## equationgirl (Feb 6, 2014)

CNT36 said:


> There was a mention of him getting another role in the past tense as he left the building. Even I thought that was a bit dodgy. He was told he could of done X job instead but it's too late now so on yet bike. He said he would of bitten their hands off if the offer was actually made.


Sounds well dodgy to be honest. Not to mention that it's a horrible thing to do.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 7, 2014)

This fucking cunting shit stain of a form.

That is all.


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## equationgirl (Feb 7, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This fucking cunting shit stain of a form.
> 
> That is all.


An excellent description.


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## Greebo (Feb 7, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This fucking cunting shit stain of a form.<snip>


Agreed, but it's that way on purpose.  To discourage honest claimants and trip up even slightly dishonest claimants.

Treat it accordingly and don't let it have either of those effects on you or on the person you're helping to fill it out.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 8, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Agreed, but it's that way on purpose.  To discourage honest claimants and trip up even slightly dishonest claimants.
> 
> Treat it accordingly and don't let it have either of those effects on you or on the person you're helping to fill it out.



Indeed. Yeah I know exactly why it's like it is and how it's intended to trip you up. It's difficult to not let it have those effects on me. I've been frustrated by it, I've tried not to get frustrated by it, particularly around my friend but she can tell and she worries it's her and not the form I'm getting frustrated with, I've reassured her it's most definitely the form but still it's not nice for her. What's worse is the guilt both of us feel, her because it's taking up a lot of my time and me because I was really hoping to get it done with minimal input from her but it hasn't turned out that way unfortunately and it's made her really ill over the past week .

Still it is what it is though, it's neither of our fault and it's nearly over with thank fuck!

I've been in and out of unemployment for the last seven years or so, I studied social policy at university recently and I've obviously been against the welfare reforms. However, it's not until you're actually faced with it, not until you actually see the effects of it on either yourself who's ill or doing it for loved ones who are ill that the reality of how fucking nasty the whole thing is.  This treatment is worse than anything I've ever received through being unemployed that's not a result of illness.  I also didn't realise ESA was Labour's bright idea. 

Ho hum, thanks for listening to me sound off! I guess this is what this thread is for


----------



## Greebo (Feb 8, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> <snip> Ho hum, thanks for listening to me sound off! I guess this is what this thread is for


(((Doctor Carrot and friend))) Here's hoping that all the hard work both of you are putting in will be worth it.  It's difficult enough having to stare the full reality of sickness and/or disability in the face without the worry that, unless you get the words just right, somebody will find an excuse to make life more difficult for you.  

Hence the need for short sessions and doing  something enjoyable after each one.


----------



## superfly101 (Feb 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> IMHO recordings and having somebody there (as a witness/chaperone/advocate) should be standard practice with anybody who is potentially vulnerable due to ill health or disability, but this goes in spades for anyone with a memory problem or who becomes easily confused or upset when under pressure.



Recordings will only ensure you will have a full and proper WCA face to face. This recording can be as good for the goose as it is for the gander. Any inconsistencies go both ways tbf.

As for covert recordings they are only useful in discrediting the ATOS HCP evidence. They can not and usually will not prove you meet the descriptors for ESA. 

You have to be quite canny and selective in using audio recording as evidence.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 17, 2014)

Help please. Can they fuck your claim up and suddenly make your money about £30 a week less? I can't stop shaking and I'm cracking up. The last couple of weeks has been one fuck up after another. I can't handle it anymore. If I can leave the house tomorrow I'm going to CAB but  does anyone know if they can just dock your money? The tribunal ruled I'm still entitled to ESA.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 17, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> <snip> does anyone know if they can just dock your money? The tribunal ruled I'm still entitled to ESA.


AFAIK that's not supposed to happen.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 17, 2014)

Fuckers  geminisnake £30 rings a bell to me. Like that's the amount less you get if you don't comply with wrag stuff. Hopefully they've not cocked it all up. Have you rung the DWP? At least then you know what you're up against.


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 17, 2014)

I popped on with some good news - I've sent off my esa50. I downloaded the PDF and typed it in so basically every year I'll just print it out and send it in again. They can fuck off with all the stress.


----------



## Jackobi (Feb 17, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> Fuckers  geminisnake £30 rings a bell to me. Like that's the amount less you get if you don't comply with wrag stuff.



No, the sanctionable amounts changed in Dec 2012. Whereas previously the WRAG or Support Group component was sanctioned, which are both around £30, now it is the personal allowance component which is sanctioned, so either £56 (under 25) or £71(over 25).

The good news being, it is unlikely to be a sanction, as the amount sanctioned would be more than £30. If there is no overpayment due geminisnake, it sounds likely that the WRAG or Support Group component has not been added to your personal allowance for some reason, perhaps in error.


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 17, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> No, the sanctionable amounts changed in Dec 2012. Whereas previously the WRAG or Support Group component was sanctioned, which are both around £30,* now it is the personal allowance component which is sanctioned, so either £56 (under 25) or £71(over 25)*


Fucking hell - that passed me by.



Jackobi said:


> geminisnake, it sounds likely that the WRAG or Support Group component has not been added to your personal allowance for some reason, perhaps in error.


I was wondering if that'd be it. Fingers crossed they sort this asap geminisnake


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 17, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> it sounds likely that the WRAG or Support Group component has not been added to your personal allowance for some reason, perhaps in error.



Aye, error, like the not reading the fucking letter from the Tribunal error which stated I remain on ESA, which resulted in me having to sort out my HB/CTB for the second time in 8 months. Yet these are the people that want to charge us for fucking errors??(the council are one of my main stressors and why I got signed off yrs ago)
£30 is a guestimate. I have no idea how much the individual bits that make up the total are, just knew £112 wasn't right!

I haven't phoned them. I'm leaving that to CAB. I really have had enough. Thanks for the replies though.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 17, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> Help please. Can they fuck your claim up and suddenly make your money about £30 a week less? I can't stop shaking and I'm cracking up. The last couple of weeks has been one fuck up after another. I can't handle it anymore. If I can leave the house tomorrow I'm going to CAB but  does anyone know if they can just dock your money? The tribunal ruled I'm still entitled to ESA.


£30 would be the difference between pre and post assessment rate ESA. So my guess (as far as anyone can divine this insane mess of a system) you've somehow been bumped back, which would lead me to assume they think your claim has expired or something.

Sounds like a huge admin fuck up and the least they could do is give you a reason.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 17, 2014)

Sorry to hear this geminisnake here's hoping the CAB can get to the bottom of it tomorrow. Chin up doll x


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 17, 2014)

Current rates are:
First 13 weeks of claim: £71.70

From 14 weeks of claim:
Work Related Activity Group: Up to £100.15
Support Group: Up to £106.50

(source: https://www.gov.uk/employment-support-allowance/what-youll-get )
Also may be a factor: contribution-based esa in the work related activity group is time limited to twelve months, after which point you can claim income-related esa (although i'm still unclear as to whether this is done automatically, or whether you need to apply). Either way, that shouldn't bump you back to the 'starting point' though. Neither should winning your tribunal


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 17, 2014)

Ime tufty79 my wrag jobcentre contact told me I'd have to pick up a form to apply for income related - or be transferred to only NI credits.


----------



## laptop (Feb 17, 2014)

Guardian reckons ATOS is going to (they say may) lose the contract: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/17/atos-fit-for-work-tests-contract


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## equationgirl (Feb 17, 2014)

laptop said:


> Guardian reckons ATOS is going to (they say may) lose the contract: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/17/atos-fit-for-work-tests-contract


I look forward to the ITT with interest - not least because of the inherent confidentiality/IP provisions within letting third parties look at the software owned by ATOS (the DWP only rents it, after all). I wonder what financial penalty the contract has for finishing early.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 18, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Also may be a factor: contribution-based esa in the work related activity group is time limited to twelve months, after which point you can claim income-related esa (although i'm still unclear as to whether this is done automatically, or whether you need to apply).



Not having been there - but I'd have thought you'd almost certainly have to apply for income related ESA, since you would not, at the point of claiming contributions based ESA, have had to provide any info about any other income / savings you (and, if relevant, your partner) might have.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 18, 2014)

laptop said:


> Guardian reckons ATOS is going to (they say may) lose the contract: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/17/atos-fit-for-work-tests-contract


That's been on the cards for a while. If they do lose it it will just go to Serco or G4S or something. Won't make any difference. It should be in the hands of the NHS and people's own GP's.


----------



## Quartz (Feb 18, 2014)

laptop said:


> Guardian reckons ATOS is going to (they say may) lose the contract: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/17/atos-fit-for-work-tests-contract



The Tories are clearly in need of funds for the upcoming elections.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 18, 2014)

laptop said:


> Guardian reckons ATOS is going to (they say may) lose the contract: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2014/feb/17/atos-fit-for-work-tests-contract



"...Too many people appeal against their decisions" said disability minister Mike Penning of ATOS's work.
Not: Not "so many people", but "*too many* people", making it not a matter of ATOS doing a shit job, but of chippy crips not taking the kicking lying down.

Fuck 'em all.

Up the arse.

With a horse dick.


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## geminisnake (Feb 18, 2014)

it was indeed yet another feck up, hopefully sorted now, thanks for support a'body


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## tufty79 (Feb 18, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> it was indeed yet another feck up, hopefully sorted now, thanks for support a'body






Puddy_Tat said:


> Not having been there - but I'd have thought you'd almost certainly have to apply for income related ESA, since you would not, at the point of claiming contributions based ESA, have had to provide any info about any other income / savings you (and, if relevant, your partner) might have.


I've dug out this, which they sent the other week. I've been trying to confirm for ages which type my claim is. One person at their delivery centre said it's contributions based, two said it's not - I applied for income related, have three letters saying my claim is income related, yet..

 

I'm going to ring them closer to the time and double check what I need to do, if I don't get chucked on jsa before then.
This happened with my last claim as well


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 18, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> I've dug out this, which they sent the other week. I've been trying to confirm for ages which type my claim is. One person at their delivery centre said it's contributions based, two said it's not - I applied for income related, have three letters saying my claim is income related, yet..
> 
> View attachment 48729
> 
> ...



That letter seems to be saying you're on contributions based ESA now, but will change to income related in July 2014.

This suggests you've already declared savings / income etc to them.

Does that sound plausible?


----------



## wtfftw (Feb 18, 2014)

Yeah. It's the stupid format they use.  Look what they sent me - I hadn't done an income assessment (too high) but had had a new ESA50 + medical that I was waiting for results of.

Probably massive so I'll link http://www.wtfftw.webspace.virginmedia.com/imgs/esabollocks.jpg


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## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2014)

Glad it's sorted out geminisnake they rely on people not sorting the fuckups out.


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## geminisnake (Feb 18, 2014)

with £40 a week at stake I couldn't afford not to sort it!


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## tufty79 (Feb 20, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> That letter seems to be saying you're on contributions based ESA now, but will change to income related in July 2014.
> 
> This suggests you've already declared savings / income etc to them.
> 
> Does that sound plausible?


Yup, I think so - cheers you and wtfftw. Fingers crossed for no fucking up..

I finally had my assessment this afternoon. A friend ended up coming with me, the whole thing was recorded, and I have no idea how it went. 
He focused solely on the mh stuff - at the beginning he'd said there would be physical tests, but didn't get on to those -at the end, he said something like i'd be able to raise/discuss my other conditions in the future if necessary  (I immediately interpreted that as 'you're going to have to appeal your assessment', my friend was less catastrophic and thought he was just explaining that they were just focussing on head stuff today). 

So in a nutshell, I have no idea what will happen. I'm really glad it's over for now at least though. And that I took d with me; originally, my neighbour was going to come, and I was extra anxietying about discussing stuff in front of him.

Got home to find a message from my gp surgery to go in 'before the weekend' to talk about my blood tests from tues (i'm not meant to be going back for a fortnight), so this afternoon's stress reprieve was only a little one


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 20, 2014)

Stop stressing about the blood, it could just mean something isn't 100%. (((tufty)))


----------



## Quartz (Feb 20, 2014)

Best of luck!


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## equationgirl (Feb 20, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> Yup, I think so - cheers you and wtfftw. Fingers crossed for no fucking up..
> 
> I finally had my assessment this afternoon. A friend ended up coming with me, the whole thing was recorded, and I have no idea how it went.
> He focused solely on the mh stuff - at the beginning he'd said there would be physical tests, but didn't get on to those -at the end, he said something like i'd be able to raise/discuss my other conditions in the future if necessary  (I immediately interpreted that as 'you're going to have to appeal your assessment', my friend was less catastrophic and thought he was just explaining that they were just focussing on head stuff today).
> ...


Hope all was ok - could mean they've lost the sample (voice of bitter experience), could mean they want to retest whatever it is before any decision is made.


----------



## tufty79 (Feb 20, 2014)

Ty - I hadn't thought of that.
Apparently they've booked me in for an appt tomorrow afternoon, so i'll find out what's going on then - fingers crossed it *is* just a lost/re-sample (I had to remind myself that it wasn't a 'we need to see you NOW before your internal organs explode and your feet fall off' message  )

A night of switching off as much as poss, banishing the words 'appeal' and 'diabetes crisis' from my branes, and covering myself in kittens beckons.

(E2a: turns out I was called in to be told that my diabetes meds weren't and probably won't work for me - along with a 'not sure why this wasn't picked up by your last practise' comment. They've switched me over to a different one, and we'll see if I can get less sugary)


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## geminisnake (Feb 20, 2014)

yay for kittens


----------



## RedDragon (Feb 21, 2014)

ATOS, now saying they wanna get out of the government contract early due to 160 threats to staff a month...


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I'm filling out a form on behalf of someone with ME and I can't work out what the hell to put for the 'how far can you walk' question. It's ridiculous, who the fuck measures how far they can walk every day? The work and benefits guide talks about framing in a way that relates to activities like shopping. Shall I put in 'I can walk 100 metres on a good day, 50 on a medium day and sod all on a bad day' or 'I can go to the shop near my home but only buy a small bag of items, I have to take breaks and when I get home again I have to rest before putting the items away.'  What's more there's no room for nuance at all, like if I (I being my friend) have done something else before I walked somewhere, like cooking it will effect how far I can walk on that day, be it a good or medium one, on a bad day even getting out of bed is out of the question. Making people who are ill do  this bullshit is bordering on barbarism. I'm not even unwell and it's doing my fucking head in!
> 
> 'How long can you stand on your head, poke yourself in the eye and blow bubbles out your arse?' - 7 hours
> 
> ...


On phone so too difficult to read what's been said, but if you go to a supermarket, they will assume you have no trouble walking.  Doesn't occur to them someone else may be doing the shopping whilst you sit down and read your paper and have a cup of coffee in the cafe.  There isn't an option for that in their little tick boxes!


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 21, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> On phone so too difficult to read what's been said, but if you go to a supermarket, they will assume you have no trouble walking.  Doesn't occur to them someone else may be doing the shopping whilst you sit down and read your paper and have a cup of coffee in the cafe.  There isn't an option for that in their little tick boxes!



Thanks for this, Minnie. I've finished the form and it's been sent off now and I did write about how she can't go shopping on her own etc. The form ended up being over 4000 words and it felt like writing a university essay!


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 21, 2014)

OK I'm fucking furious now, these people need fucking stringing up . 

My friend has just showed me a letter from the DWP saying they received her form after the deadline of the 12th and they've declared her fit for work! The original letter she received from them said the deadline was the 14th so she posted it by recorded delivery on the 12th.  She has a copy of the original letter saying deadline was the 14th, she has a receipt saying she posted it on the 12th and Royal Mail tracking evidence saying the letter was delivered on the 14th in the morning. They're saying they received it on the 20th and have more or less told her to lump it and they've closed her case! I'm so fucking pissed off, I dunno what to do to help her  can anyone please advise? Thanks.


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## tufty79 (Feb 21, 2014)

As well as putting something in writing to the dwp (with copies of receipts/proof of delivery) I'd suggest speaking to the CAB or her local welfare rights team asap; sorry to hear she's having to deal with massive fuckuppery


----------



## Greebo (Feb 21, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> <snip> My friend has just showed me a letter from the DWP saying they received her form after the deadline of the 12th and they've declared her fit for work! The original letter she received from them said the deadline was the 14th so she posted it by recorded delivery on the 12th.  She has a copy of the original letter saying deadline was the 14th, she has a receipt saying she posted it on the 12th and Royal Mail tracking evidence saying the letter was delivered on the 14th in the morning. They're saying they received it on the 20th and have more or less told her to lump it and they've closed her case! I'm so fucking pissed off, I dunno what to do to help her  can anyone please advise? Thanks.


What tufty79 said.  First stop, CAB or similar, with the receipt, tracking evidence etc. Here's hoping this gets sorted out soon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 21, 2014)

I'm pretty sure they claimed not to have found mine initially, then it miraculously appeared


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Feb 21, 2014)

Thanks. The advice group has recommended emailing the DWP manager for her region with all the evidence and sending to her MP also. I'll her tell her to contact CAB too. Apparently it's because it got redirected which is why they're saying they didn't receive it on time. Didn't tell her about that in the letter eh? She's upheld her end and yet they treat her like this? , thanks for the replies.


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## geminisnake (Feb 21, 2014)

Never forget they are CUNTS of the highest order Doctor Carrot    CAB are generally good at sorting things out, and check to see if her local council have a Welfare Rights dept too.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 22, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thanks. The advice group has recommended emailing the DWP manager for her region with all the evidence and sending to her MP also. I'll her tell her to contact CAB too. Apparently it's because it got redirected which is why they're saying they didn't receive it on time. Didn't tell her about that in the letter eh? She's upheld her end and yet they treat her like this? , thanks for the replies.


getting an MP invited always puts the wind up them.

maybe even contact the local PCS dept, they must have some influence.

and some responsibility.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 22, 2014)

I've gradually tapered off my voting over the years but now I've been involved in this I'm just not gonna bother to vote anymore. How can I vote for anyone the upholds this kind of shit? This is just barbaric making ill people do this.  I suppose I'm a hypocrite for saying that as I'll be writing to an MP but then again they brought in this mess so they can deal with the clean up.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I've gradually tapered off my voting over the years but now I've been involved in this I'm just not gonna bother to vote anymore. How can I vote for anyone the upholds this kind of shit? This is just barbaric making ill people do this.  I suppose I'm a hypocrite for saying that as I'll be writing to an MP but then again they brought in this mess so they can deal with the clean up.


Actually there is evidence that shows this was initially started under Labour. Admittedly, the Conservatives have made the process worse, but it's not only their fault.

Many MPs of all parties hate ATOS, so don't be afraid to use her local MP, after all, they work for US.


----------



## geminisnake (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> don't be afraid to use her local MP, after all, they work for US.



At least they are SUPPOSED to! 
Don't not vote because of this. We need more people to vote for smaller parties and good parties to get the ball rolling. I always vote because I feel I should. Women died so I could and I feel it would be wrong not to, but we're all different  A better selection of candidates would be good and I think PR has made a difference in Scotland, shame it's not national.


----------



## Obnoxiousness (Feb 22, 2014)

Who do we vote for?  
If Labour and the Condems are both floating evermore to the right, then what party will actually stop punishing British people for being ill?

I've lost all faith in government.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> Who do we vote for?
> If Labour and the Condems are both floating evermore to the right, then what party will actually stop punishing British people for being ill?
> 
> I've lost all faith in government.


I tend to vote for the Greens or an independent candidate, more the person rather than party if you see what I mean. I won't be voting for my Labour MP because she didn't vote for the Early Day Motion that practically every single other Labour voted for about Atos.


----------



## Quartz (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Admittedly, the Conservatives have made the process worse, but it's not only their fault.



Absolutely it's their fault. They've had years to fix things and they haven't.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Absolutely it's their fault. They've had years to fix things and they haven't.


The conservatives were never going to fix the system and if you think that you're naive. Labour should never have brought this is in the first place, they're the party that is supposed to be on the side of those that are vulnerable, the workers etc. Not the conservatives, who stand for the wealthy.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The conservatives were never going to fix the system and if you think that you're naive. Labour should never have brought this is in the first place, they're the party that is supposed to be on the side of those that are vulnerable, the workers etc. Not the conservatives, who stand for the wealthy.


this is very true.


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## geminisnake (Feb 22, 2014)

Obnoxiousness said:


> Who do we vote for?
> If Labour and the Condems are both floating evermore to the right, then what party will actually stop punishing British people for being ill?
> 
> I've lost all faith in government.



Socialists, Greens, Independents, I have no idea who stands south of the border I'm afraid.


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## Quartz (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The conservatives were never going to fix the system



That doesn't absolve them of blame, does it?


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Quartz said:


> That doesn't absolve them of blame, does it?


I never said it did. But given their well-established and well-known agenda against the poor, vulnerable and the working class, they weren't exactly going to go all-out to do anything helpful. If anything, they were going to make things worse, and they have.


----------



## Quartz (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I never said it did.



Indeed, but you appeared to disagree with me.



> But given their well-established and well-known agenda against the poor, vulnerable and the working class, they weren't exactly going to go all-out to do anything helpful. If anything, they were going to make things worse, and they have.



Agreed.


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## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Indeed, but you appeared to disagree with me.


Yes, because you seem to be holding the conservatives solely responsible for not making the system better. They were never going to. It's not only their fault because this all started way back in the 1990s under Labour, who, quite frankly, should have been making things a lot better for the people who need it most.


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## Quartz (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, because you seem to be holding the conservatives solely responsible for not making the system better.



No, not *solely* responsible, just responsible for the duration of their period in power.


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## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Quartz said:


> No, not *solely* responsible, just responsible for the duration of their period in power.


Why do you think they would fix the system?


----------



## Quartz (Feb 22, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Why do you think they would fix the system?



I didn't. I still blame them because they have the power to fix it and do not.


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## equationgirl (Feb 22, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I didn't. I still blame them because they have the power to fix it and do not.


But they were never going to. The conservatives make things better for the wealthy, not the rest of us.


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## purenarcotic (Feb 23, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> At least they are SUPPOSED to!
> Don't not vote because of this. We need more people to vote for smaller parties and good parties to get the ball rolling. I always vote because I feel I should. Women died so I could and I feel it would be wrong not to, but we're all different  A better selection of candidates would be good and I think PR has made a difference in Scotland, shame it's not national.



Women died so we could have the choice to vote should we want to, not so we feel we 'should' vote.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

Don't know if you are aware of this:

*All repeat WCA medicals to be stopped*
Created on Monday, 24 February 2014 14:14
Category: Latest news

In an urgent memo obtained by Benefits and Work, the DWP have told staff that due to a growing backlog at Atos all current employment and support allowance (ESA) claimants will be left on the benefit, without further medical checks, until another company can be found to do repeat work capability assessments (WCAs). The memo, dated 20 January, goes on to say that this will reduce the number of claimants moving off ESA, but that there are no plans to inform claimants or MPs about the change.

Benefits and Work obtained the memo from the DWP via a Freedom of Information request. It is headed: ‘FOR URGENT CASCADE. Control of the Referral of Repeat work Capability Assessments’.

The memo explains that back in July a ministerial statement announced that:

“in the drive to continually improve the Work Capability Assessment process and bring down waiting times for claimants, DWP had decided to seek additional capacity to deliver Work Capability Assessments.

“We are working towards having new provision in place – it will of course take some time for that to become fully operational.”

However, the memo goes on to explain that:

“The number of cases currently with Atos Healthcare has grown. A decision has therefore been taken to control the referral of repeat work capability assessments. Therefore, with effect from 20 January 2014, further routine repeat assessments referrals to Atos will be deferred until further notice.

“Controlling the volume of repeat Work Capability Assessments should help us to reduce delays for new claimants and those that have already been referred.”

The memo goes on to say that staff must still refer claimants for reassessment where there has been a reported change in condition, giving the example of a claimant placed in the Work Related Activity Group whose condition worsens and who might be expected to move into the Support Group.

Aside from this, however, reassessment of existing claimants is to end until further notice, with no new cases being referred to Atos from 20th January.

The memo is keen to point out that the decision to stop repeat assessments by Atos is not ‘linked to the quality issues outlined in July 2013’ which the DWP ‘has been working closely with Atos to resolve’. It also reassures readers that the change will have no impact on Atos’ ability to carry out personal independence payment assessments.

It does, however, admit that the result of the change is that the number of people coming off ESA each month will reduce because:

“the Work Capability Assessment is the main trigger for off-flows from the Employment and Support Allowance load. We will continue to assess the potential for alternative interventions on those whose repeat Work Capability Assessments are deferred to seek to manage this consequence.”

No details of what those ‘alternative interventions’ might be is given.

It is clear, however, that the DWP is not keen for people to be aware of the ever more disastrous state of medical assessments for benefits by Atos. The memo explains that claimants who enquire about when their next WCA will be, should only be told that:

“Although the Department will periodically review a person’s Limited Capability for Work, there is no set date for this to happen.

“The timing of this review is at the discretion of the Decision Maker acting on behalf of the Secretary of State and is influenced by the evidence available to them, which can mean on occasion longer periods between face to face assessments. “

In addition, the memo explains that as this is simply an ‘operational decision’ and not a ‘policy change’ there are no plans to notify ‘external stakeholders such as claimants, claimant representative groups, Members of Parliament, etc.’

It is hard to imagine that IDS and his fellow DWP ministers believed that they could keep this further Atos-related failure secret for long: you can’t stop reassessing thousands of claimants a week without anyone noticing. If, however, they could have kept it secret at least until they found a new company to take on the repeat assessments, it would have been easier to explain away and not added to the ever mounting pressure for a complete overhaul of the WCA.

“Yes, there was briefly a problem” IDS could have said “But we now have a new provider and it is no longer an issue.”

As it is, this news is simply further proof that the WCA is not fit for purpose, because as soon as the DWP attempts to impose proper quality controls a massive backlog results. It is, we hope, another nail in the coffin of a completely discredited system.

And, for all those claimants with static or degenerative conditions who continue to be forced to undergo repeat assessments, often followed by repeat appeals, on an annual basis, the news will come as a welcome respite.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

I've just forwarded that to my MP.


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## chainsawjob (Feb 24, 2014)

Does this really mean that the ESA50 I sent in last August which I've still not had a response to, won't be processed now and I will stay in the SG until further notice? It seems to be saying that, I had to read it through several times to make sense of it (if I have made sense of it).

Wow.


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## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> I've just forwarded that to my MP.


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## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> Does this really mean that the ESA50 I sent in last August which I've still not had a response to, won't be processed now and I will stay in the SG until further notice?<snip>


If it does, then just half a cheer - OTOH for anyone who gets wiped out by merely having to traipse all the way to the mock medical it's still extremely good news.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Feb 24, 2014)




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## ddraig (Feb 24, 2014)

no worky


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> “Yes, there was briefly a problem” IDS could have said “But we now have a new provider and it is no longer an issue.”


Who is the new provider?

It's all a bit like the talk of a new Dr Who? We know the old one's leaving, but who takes over and will their kidneys be the same colour?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Feb 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Who is the new provider?
> 
> It's all a bit like the talk of a new Dr Who? We know the old one's leaving, but who takes over and will their kidneys be the same colour?



Probably G4S, Serco, some shit of the same ilk


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Probably G4S, Serco, some shit of the same ilk



Sadly, you are right. A company with a bit of backbone and a shred of integrity would be nice.


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## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sadly, you are right. A company with a bit of backbone and a shred of integrity would be nice.


I could ask for the same from the current government and be just as likely to get it.


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## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Who is the new provider?
> 
> It's all a bit like the talk of a new Dr Who? We know the old one's leaving, but who takes over and will their kidneys be the same colour?


They don't have a new provider yet. 

As far as I know, the tender to take over hasn't even been opened yet, and the government won't be able to hire a new provider until a tender has been done.


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## Sasaferrato (Feb 24, 2014)

Greebo said:


> I could ask for the same from the current government and be just as likely to get it.



Or the next one.


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## Greebo (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Or the next one.


So good at harshing my mellow.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 24, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> They don't have a new provider yet.
> 
> As far as I know, the tender to take over hasn't even been opened yet, and the government won't be able to hire a new provider until a tender has been done.


more bullshit from Reverend Smith then - unless I'm missing something.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 24, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sadly, you are right. A company with a bit of backbone and a shred of integrity would be nice.


would such a company even take this contract?


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## equationgirl (Feb 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> more bullshit from Reverend Smith then - unless I'm missing something.


Read it again - it says 'if they had kept this secret until later in the year, IDS could have said XXXXX'. IDS isn't actually saying anything at the moment.


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## scifisam (Feb 24, 2014)

I've been waiting for an assessment since last July. Meantime I'm on assessment rate.  

I'm not even sure I'll get assessed before my contribution-based benefits run out, so presumably then I'll just be cut off and never get the back payment. The delays aren't all good.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 24, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> Does this really mean that the ESA50 I sent in last August which I've still not had a response to, won't be processed now and I will stay in the SG until further notice? It seems to be saying that, I had to read it through several times to make sense of it (if I have made sense of it).
> 
> Wow.


it's a reasonable possibility at the moment that you won't be reassessed currently. which is good news. how long this state of affairs maintains seems to be anyone's guess though.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 24, 2014)

scifisam said:


> I've been waiting for an assessment since last July. Meantime I'm on assessment rate.
> 
> I'm not even sure I'll get assessed before my contribution-based benefits run out, so presumably then I'll just be cut off and never get the back payment. The delays aren't all good.


if it's a new claim, then you should still be assessed, this only affects reassessments and migration cases afaik.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 25, 2014)

l bet people still get called for reassessment. I'm afraid I am far too cynical to be anything but skeptical about this, as well as the issue of ATOS wanting too withdraw early.

I would certainly like to be wrong!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

Sasaferrato said:


> Sadly, you are right. A company with a bit of backbone and a shred of integrity would be nice.



Companies of the size to win the contract and "integrity" don't tend to go together, unfortunately.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> if it's a new claim, then you should still be assessed, this only affects reassessments and migration cases afaik.



Ah, that may explain why I've not heard about my "migration" claim (submitted, like chainsawjob's in August '13) yet.
Cheers for the info, Paulie!


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> They don't have a new provider yet.
> 
> As far as I know, the tender to take over hasn't even been opened yet, and the government won't be able to hire a new provider until a tender has been done.



And (*IF* they follow usual Civil Service bureaucratic procedure, rather than Dunked-in Shit acting unilaterally) until they've untangled where they went so wrong with the ATOS contract.


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## scifisam (Feb 25, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> if it's a new claim, then you should still be assessed, this only affects reassessments and migration cases afaik.



But if they don't have a new provider yet, the delay will continue. In fact, the govt could save tons simply by never getting round to assessing the people on contributory ESA who can't switch to income-based, therefore only paying them the basic rate.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 25, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Ah, that may explain why I've not heard about my "migration" claim (submitted, like chainsawjob's in August '13) yet.
> Cheers for the info, Paulie!


That certainly seems to be the case, as far as I can tell from information shared to date. Reassessments, whether from IB/IS to ESA, or as part of the ESA review procedures, are what seems to have had the brakes put on for now. New claims will still be assessed as normal, as I noted before. I would assume that this is partly a means to try and reduce the overall caseload held by Atos with a view to the termination of their contract - by not doing any reassessments, they are free to concentrate only on outstanding new claims, which would free up a large amount of internal resource I would imagine.

However, if anyone reading this does receive notification of an assessment with an Atos doctor, or to complete the questionnaire, i don't think this news gives you any grounds to refuse to comply unfortunately - if you don't comply, they'll stop your money in most cases.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 25, 2014)

scifisam said:


> But if they don't have a new provider yet, the delay will continue. In fact, the govt could save tons simply by never getting round to assessing the people on contributory ESA who can't switch to income-based, therefore only paying them the basic rate.


Normal complaints procedures would apply - if you haven't had your initial ESA assessment after 13 weeks (i.e. within the "assessment phase", then write a letter of complaint and ask for it to be arranged asap. If they continue to tarry, probably worth speaking to your MP, as well as any local independent advice service.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 25, 2014)

scifisam said:


> But if they don't have a new provider yet, the delay will continue. In fact, the govt could save tons simply by never getting round to assessing the people on contributory ESA who can't switch to income-based, therefore only paying them the basic rate.


 The CAB adviser that helped me told me, repeatedly, they are absolutely _swamped_.

I'm sure others here have been told similar.

The system is in absolute meltdown despite Morgoth Duncan Smith's bluster. How that goon still has his job beggars belief.


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## scifisam (Feb 25, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Normal complaints procedures would apply - if you haven't had your initial ESA assessment after 13 weeks (i.e. within the "assessment phase", then write a letter of complaint and ask for it to be arranged asap. If they continue to tarry, probably worth speaking to your MP, as well as any local independent advice service.



I have contacted them and been told I simply have to wait and nothing I can do will speed it up.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Feb 25, 2014)

scifisam said:


> I have contacted them and been told I simply have to wait and nothing I can do will speed it up.


Complain about Jobcentre Plus 
Whilst it is certainly true that there appears to be any way in which you can speed up assessments through statutory procedures, you can complain if you feel that they are not properly dealing with your claim. As I said before, the assessment phase is supposed to be 13-weeks, so any delay beyond that time limit should certainly be complained about, and may serve to speed things up.


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## scifisam (Feb 25, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Complain about Jobcentre Plus
> Whilst it is certainly true that there appears to be any way in which you can speed up assessments through statutory procedures, you can complain if you feel that they are not properly dealing with your claim. As I said before, the assessment phase is supposed to be 13-weeks, so any delay beyond that time limit should certainly be complained about, and may serve to speed things up.



Thanks, but I really don't think that would work, since it's a link to complain about specific jobcentres and they're not the source of the problem.


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## chainsawjob (Feb 26, 2014)

So this is what Benefits and Work _think_ is happening



> *Already being re-assessed*
> - you have already received an ESA50
> - you have returned the ESA50 but have not yet had an assessment
> 
> ...



http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/forum?view=topic&catid=10&id=100582&start=6

So, if this is correct, the stop on WCAs only affects people already on ESA who aren't currently being reassessed.  New claims, and IB transferrals are still going to be processed (ViolentPanda).  Hopefully scifisam the wait for new claims should at least be shortened by this.   

So it looks like I was overly hopeful in thinking it meant already begun reassessments wouldn't be processed, back to the waiting game


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

What do you define as an already begun reassessment; do you mean claimants that have received notification they are to attend another ATOS appointment?

EDIT: nvmd, didn't read the link


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 26, 2014)

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/a...r-disability-benefit-assessments-9153885.html

CUNTS!


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## treelover (Feb 26, 2014)

new allies for ATOS PIP protestors then.


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## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

Please can you take any discussion about Atos managing care.data to the relevant thread? This is a thread about support for those going through the process, not political discussions. Thank you.


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## treelover (Feb 26, 2014)

sorry, agreed.


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## chainsawjob (Feb 26, 2014)

> Benefits and Work has received information from a DWP insider claiming that people who are due to have their employment and support allowance (ESA) award reassessed in the coming months will now have that assessment deferred for a full two years.



http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2648-repeat-esa-medicals-deferred-for-two-years

Not that they were planning on telling anybody.....


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## equationgirl (Feb 26, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2648-repeat-esa-medicals-deferred-for-two-years
> 
> Not that they were planning on telling anybody.....


I'd recommend that anyone who doesn't have a referral date to make a subject access request under the Data Protection Act, because that date may already have been added to their file especially if the assessment was expected soon.


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## Doctor Carrot (Feb 26, 2014)

In case anyone was wondering my friend's claim was reopened and she has received her ESA payment today .  Rather quickly it was too so maybe just adding her MP in to the email helped? Anyway thanks for the replies, can rest now until the next hurdle!


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## superfly101 (Feb 27, 2014)

ATOS clarify who will be re-assessed http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2014...mpletion-of-work-capability-assessments[/ulr]


> Clarification about the completion of Work Capability Assessments There have been reports online and in the media about changes to the way Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) referrals are being made by the DWP. There is some confusion around what the change actually means for people either receiving IB, ESA or who have recently claimed ESA but not yet had a decision on their claim made by the DWP. We want to clarify what the change means for the Work Capability Assessment (WCA) part of the ESA process, which is the part that we do. WCA Referrals to Atos Healthcare Atos Healthcare receives referrals from DWP when they want us to carry out an assessment for a claim to ESA. We continue to do this for DWP and we are processing all claims that are being sent to us. We receive referrals for claimants who are making a new claim to ESA, claimants whose claim is being reviewed by DWP and also from those people who are receiving Incapacity Benefit but who are being reassessed under ESA guidelines. DWP recently decided to defer routine repeat assessments until further notice. Although they will still refer cases where there has been a reported change in condition, typically where someone’s condition worsens. What this means to Claimants We continue to receive new WCA referrals and they will continue the assessment process as normal. Any WCA repeat referrals that we have already received from DWP will also continue through the WCA process as they would before. You can normally tell that this process has started because you receive a Limited Capability for Work questionnaire, or ESA50. You should still return forms, supply additional evidence or attend appointments for a face to face assessment as necessary. You can find more information on this process in our Q&A section of the website or in other articles on this blog.


 Pip and Crapita looks like it's in trouble too http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-benefits-contractor-runs-into-trouble-video


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2648-repeat-esa-medicals-deferred-for-two-years
> 
> Not that they were planning on telling anybody.....


forgive me, but how reliable are these reports and insiders?


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## laptop (Feb 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> forgive me, but how reliable are these reports and insiders?



How reliable have benefitsandwork.co.uk been in the past? 

That's our only criterion for judging their handling of their necessarily anonymous source. They inspire some confidence by reporting that the source provided details they hadn't published from their earlier story... so they've at least thought about the issues more than some bloggers do.


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## Awesome Wells (Feb 27, 2014)

laptop said:


> How reliable have benefitsandwork.co.uk been in the past?
> 
> That's our only criterion for judging their handling of their necessarily anonymous source. They inspire some confidence by reporting that the source provided details they hadn't published from their earlier story... so they've at least thought about the issues more than some bloggers do.


I don't know. They seem reliable, but I don' tuse the site directly. I've had people pass on stuff from them on a couple of very helpful ocassions, for which I am grateful, but the site sits behind a paywall.


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## Greebo (Feb 27, 2014)

laptop said:


> How reliable have benefitsandwork.co.uk been in the past? <snip>


IMHO very.


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## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

Usually very reliable, but they didn't make this issue very clear, ATOS have now stated if you are already in the review process, eg sent off your form, then you will be subject to assessment and possible medical, etc.


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## treelover (Feb 28, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> ATOS clarify who will be re-assessed http://blog.atoshealthcare.com/2014...mpletion-of-work-capability-assessments[/ulr]  Pip and Crapita looks like it's in trouble too http://www.channel4.com/news/disability-benefits-contractor-runs-into-trouble-video




btw, its like Russian roulette or the drowned and the saved, just so arbitrary that if you have been sent a form in the last six months, you will still be seen, but if you haven't, you are clear for 2 years, though I still wouldn't take that as gospel.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 8, 2014)

My dad's OH has had a stroke and he has received the forms for ESA.  Her stroke is in quite an unusual place (somewhat spookily it's where I had mine and it's even affected the same craniofacial nerves, weird huh) so I'm already concerned they're going to try and fob her off as she can walk, dress herself and has retained full use of her limbs etc. 

I'm going to try and give him some advice re filling the form out and have so far said to make sure it focusses on the 'worst' day.  Am I also right in thinking if you can do something you say you can but that's it's important to make it clear the impact doing that has on the condition i.e. she can go out of the house for an hour or so but is then exhausted and needs to have a rest / kip for a couple of hours?


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 8, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> <snip>
> I'm going to try and give him some advice re filling the form out *and have so far said to make sure it focusses on the 'worst' day. * Am I also right in thinking if you can do something you say you can but that's it's important to make it clear the impact doing that has on the condition i.e. *she can go out of the house for an hour or so but is then exhausted and needs to have a rest / kip for a couple of hours?*



Sorry to hear about your dad's OH.
Yes and yes to the bolded bits of your quote - It's best to give as much detail as possible - Repeat yourself etc in order to give as clear a picture as possible which, in turn, gives the atos assessor less room to make assumptions. It may be an idea for either you or your dad to fill the form in for his OH (with her collaboration/co-operation on what to write) - I'm not saying that in order to make your dad's OH feel disempowered or not in control of the situation - Far from it - It's just that sometimes atos will use the fact that a claimant was physically and/or mentally capable of filling in the form against them.
I've never used Benefits and Work but a lot of people on this thread have/do and swear by them - Anyway here's a link to their site
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/

All the best and keep the thread updated - You'll get good advice on here plus lots of support through what is (and there's no point sugar coating it) a very dispiriting process. And that's without even taking into account actually being ill.

Hope your dad's OH get's the result she needs anyway.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 8, 2014)

I wish GPs would argue they, with supporting evidence from specialists as required,  should assess people.


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## Greebo (Mar 8, 2014)

purenarcotic sorry to hear of your dad's OH's stroke.  In a nutshell, whenever the claimant is asked whether they are able to do something, they need to answer it as "not unless/without (whatever help or support is needed, how often the person might need to stop or pause, how much prompting, supervision, or assistance they need, and how much resting and recovery time is needed)" instead of "yes but".   

Concentrate on that first word, because if you say "yes but" all the person processing the form or doing the medical will absorb is "yes".  

If there isn't enough space (this often happens) you need to expand the answers onto additional sheets which you add at the back, each one with the full name and NI number at the top

BTW you need to subscribe to download the pdfs which help with the forms, but the year's benefits and work sub costs far far less than not getting the benefit which you need.

When finished, take a copy and keep it safe.  Send the form and any additional information signed for (orange sticker) - it gives the DWP one less way to get away with claiming that they haven't received it before the deadline.


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## purenarcotic (Mar 8, 2014)

Cheers guys, that really helps. 

Was also wondering about prescriptions; am I right in thinking there's something you can get where if you are buying multiple prescriptions you can have a discount or something?


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## Greebo (Mar 8, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> <snip> am I right in thinking there's something you can get where if you are buying multiple prescriptions you can have a discount or something?


Yes, a "season ticket prescription" aka prescription prepayment certificate (PPC).   Go here, it says what it is and how to get it.   
http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/Healthcosts/Pages/PPC.aspx


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## superfly101 (Mar 8, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> Cheers guys, that really helps.
> 
> Was also wondering about prescriptions; am I right in thinking there's something you can get where if you are buying multiple prescriptions you can have a discount or something?



If you're on Contribution based benefits or low income have a look to see if you qualify for a HC2 certificate. See here http://www.nhs.uk/nhsengland/Healthcosts/pages/Prescriptioncosts.aspx

If you get Income based benefits prescriptions are free


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## purenarcotic (Mar 8, 2014)

The contribution / income bit is slightly complicated by the fact that she's Dutch and there was some strange thing with unemployment that I don't quite understand. 

She has worked on and off and she has a tax code etc, so I'm assuming it would be contribution based for x amount of time?  TBH my dad is much better at working out that sort of thing so I might leave all that to him.


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## equationgirl (Mar 8, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> The contribution / income bit is slightly complicated by the fact that she's Dutch and there was some strange thing with unemployment that I don't quite understand.
> 
> She has worked on and off and she has a tax code etc, so I'm assuming it would be contribution based for x amount of time?  TBH my dad is much better at working out that sort of thing so I might leave all that to him.


It may be that the DWP claim her unemployment payments from the Dutch government, certainly the Dutch government pays people a percentage of their last salary as their unemployment payment rather than a fixed rate. But I'm not expert so I'd just leave it to your dad.

Give as much information as possible. Also if she's on any medications check the side effects of each one and where one appears across two or more medications highlight it. This is because many medications can act synergisticly to make a side effect worse so, for example, if tiredness or fatigue appears as a side effect highlight it.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 9, 2014)

This is somewhat off topic, but i judge it to be relevant.

I'm due to the end the Work Programme in amonth's time though I'm now officially on ESA in the WRAG. Does anyone know what to expect? Do i qualify for the 'high intensity' support that was pronounced all gulag survivors would be subject to, or is that for JSA claimants only?

Frankly the WP has been every bit the total waste of time the reports claim, though I'm sure the blame for that will be borne by me and all other claimants.


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## geminisnake (Mar 14, 2014)

Where is the other thread? I have been for my 1st wrag interview and I need some advice. Nothing serious, just was told to check universal jobmatch, but was also told I didn't need to register for anything, which means afaic see I can't access the jobmatch thing


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## Frances Lengel (Mar 14, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> Where is the other thread? I have been for my 1st wrag interview and I need some advice. Nothing serious, just was told to check universal jobmatch, but was also told I didn't need to register for anything, which means afaic see I can't access the jobmatch thing



You can look at universal jobmatch without registering via the link below


https://jobsearch.direct.gov.uk/Job...=rv.dt.di&vw=b&re=134&setype=2&tjt=&where=&q=

Were you mandated to look at it?


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## geminisnake (Mar 14, 2014)

Frances Lengel said:


> You can look at universal jobmatch without registering via the link below
> https://jobsearch.direct.gov.uk/Job...=rv.dt.di&vw=b&re=134&setype=2&tjt=&where=&q=
> Were you mandated to look at it?



I was told to check 3 websites once a week 'to keep up to date with the local job market' apparently. I did manage not to say there is one?? When she showed me the leaflet for the universal thing I asked if that was the thing getting slated in all the papers though. Thanks for the link.

I have to go back in 4/5 months she said. I'll get a letter.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 15, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I was told to check 3 websites once a week 'to keep up to date with the local job market' apparently. I did manage not to say there is one?? When she showed me the leaflet for the universal thing I asked if that was the thing getting slated in all the papers though. Thanks for the link.
> 
> I have to go back in 4/5 months she said. I'll get a letter.


Did you have to sign a Claimant Committment to this end; an agreement of some kind?


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## geminisnake (Mar 15, 2014)

No, didn't sign anything Awesome. I wouldn't have done anyway.


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Think I've almost decided to close down this shit because I can't take any more, they are making me ill and prostitution is a much more attractive option, I just have to get around doing it from me mams house.

Anyone know how long it takes to close a claim or whether they can still hold you to interviews etc? I just wanna shut shit down and not have to deal with them any more.

This is a serious consideration.

Honestly couldn't give a fuck any more, would rather risk catching HIV.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess. So sorry about your fucking nightmare.
You know that if you had the energy to fight them then you would win.
You don't and need serious support to deal with them.
I remember your appeal in the past, which you won.
Having to go through things again shows how crap the "system" is.

I had a real problem getting them to understand that I've got a condition that ain't going to get better, just the same or worse,
Cunts!


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Its a massive problem with my disability being invisible, I go in there and I LOOK fine, I SOUND fine, I do not however FEEL fine, they cannot SEE that I cant really feel my hands properly, or SEE my tiredness, or SEE my nausea, or SEE my heat sensitivity.

Like I said on my other shits, if I could get buses 5 days a week and spend my days doing shit then I would fucking be working. I spend most of summer in my fucking room with the blinds closed and the air con on and physical exertion is out of the question, I physically cant leave the house before the sun starts setting, I cant even go and sit in the fucking garden let alone get a fucking bus at the fucking beginning of fucking summer.

WHAT A BUNCH OF CUNTS.

I am fucking DONE with them. Fuck YEWANDE and fuck the MANAGER CUNT she is blatantly sucking off.

YEWANDE is gonna end up in the fucking dole queue herself when I have fucking finished.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

"I spend most of summer in my fucking room with the blinds closed and the air con on and physical exertion is out of the question, I physically cant leave the house before the sun starts setting, I cant even go and sit in the fucking garden let alone get a fucking bus at the fucking beginning of fucking summer".
tribal_princess All too familiar. When I went to a gig in London last year it was organised with military precision by my friends. Maggot found the best places to change Tube for distance and steps. There was no way I could have done it without my support team.
I was totally fucked for days later.
A job would be impossible.


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

NO ONE understands this shit.I can't even go to gigs cus everything is standing and upon emailing venues they couldn't say whether they had seating for cripples and to contact them on the night, like wtf is that? I couldn't be fucked to argue, so didn't go.


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

There was some bastard manager saying I had to have a plan and couldn't stay on benefit and asked if I'd thought about starting a business (LOL DOING WHAT???) and totting up how many years it'd be til I was at pension age, 2051 I think he calculated it to be, well FUCK THAT I wont be here then and I can guarantee that because I will be going to fucking dignitas, the massive fucking cunt I hope he fucking dies, I hope his kids fucking die. I HOPE YOUR FUCKING KIDS DIE OF FUCKING LEUKAEMIA 'M8'. < btw can I get into shit for saying that to em? cus I'm fucking gonna.


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess said:


> NO ONE understands this shit.I can't even go to gigs cus everything is standing and upon emailing venues they couldn't say whether they had seating for cripples and to contact them on the night, like wtf is that? I couldn't be fucked to argue, so didn't go.


Annoying as this is for you - you're wrong.  You're not the only crip on urban and I could've told you that shit about gigs etc long ago but hey what the fuck do I know?  

Oh yeah, that's right, my partner has only has had moderate to severe M.E. for the last 20 or so years.  Another invisible disability and illness.  No cure, no treatment except palliatives, and the NHS hasn't got a fucking clue.  

You haven't got the energy to argue - bloody find somebody who has.  In fact, find several people.


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Annoying as this is for you - you're wrong.  You're not the only crip on urban and I could've told you that shit about gigs etc long ago but hey what the fuck do I know?  Oh yeah, that's right, my partner has only has had moderate to severe M.E. for the last 20 or so years.
> 
> You haven't got the energy to argue - bloody find somebody who has.  In fact, find several people.




FUCK OFF CUNT. FUCK YOU. CUNT,. YOU DONYT HAVE MS. YOU DONT UNDERFUCKINGSTAND SHIT ALL. FUCK OFF.

I HOPE YOU AND YPOUR FUCKING 'PARTNER' DIE. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU APPLY MY SHIT TO YOURSELF. HOEW FUCKING DARE YOU. THIS ISN'T A FUCKING IM MORE DISABLED THAN YE COMPETITION. THE ONLY EXPERIENCE OF ANYTHING YOU HAVE IS SECOND HAND AND BEING A CARER. FUCK THE FUCK OFF. CUNT.


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess said:


> FUCK OFF CUNT. FUCK YOU. CUNT,. YOU DONYT HAVE MS. YOU DONT UNDERFUCKINGSTAND SHIT ALL. FUCK OFF.
> 
> I HOPE YOU AND YPOUR FUCKING 'PARTNER' DIE. HOW FUCKING DARE YOU APPLY MY SHIT TO YOURSELF. HOEW FUCKING DARE YOU. THIS ISN'T A FUCKING IM MORE DISABLED THAN YE COMPETITION. THE ONLY EXPERIENCE OF ANYTHING YOU HAVE IS SECOND HAND AND BEING A CARER. FUCK THE FUCK OFF. CUNT.


And you wonder why you're alone in this.  Nobody uses me as a punchbag.  Bye teeps.


----------



## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Annoying as this is for you - you're wrong.  You're not the only crip on urban and I could've told you that shit about gigs etc long ago but hey what the fuck do I know?
> 
> Oh yeah, that's right, my partner has only has had moderate to severe M.E. for the last 20 or so years.  Another invisible disability and illness.  No cure, no treatment except palliatives, and the NHS hasn't got a fucking clue.
> 
> You haven't got the energy to argue - bloody find somebody who has.  In fact, find several people.



FUCK OFF. FUCK OFF. FUCK OFFG. YOU AINT TRYING TO HELP YOU ARE MOANING AT ME


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> And you wonder why you're alone in this.  Nobody uses me as a punchbag.  Bye teeps.



FUCK OFF APPLYIONG MY FUCKING DISABILITY TO YOUR OWN CUNTING SITUATION THEN LIKE SOME FUCKING JKIND OF MARTYR

OOOOOH 'NOBODY USES ME AS A PUNCH BAG' ISIT REALLY??

IF YOU DONT LIKE BEING TOLD TO FUCK RIGHT OFF DO NOT FUCKING TALK DOWN TO ME LIKE I AM A FUCKING IDIOT.

FUCKING BULLSHIT WITCH. IF YOU CANT SEE HOW PURELY FUCKING OFFENSIVE YOU BEEN THEN I FEEL DEEPLY SORRY FOR YOU.

I AINT EVEN SAID I'M ALONE, DICKHEAD.


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## editor (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess said:


> FUCK OFF APPLYIONG MY FUCKING DISABILITY TO YOUR OWN CUNTING SITUATION THEN LIKE SOME FUCKING JKIND OF MARTYR
> 
> OOOOOH 'NOBODY USES ME AS A PUNCH BAG' ISIT REALLY??
> 
> ...


Sorry, but this kind of abuse is against the rules of this board, so please stop.


----------



## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

editor said:


> Sorry, but this kind of abuse is against the rules of this board, so please stop.



OH IVE BEEN REPORTED HAVE I?? TELL THAT IDIOT TO STOP COMPARING DISABILITY AND MAKING OUT LIKE THEY KNOW SHIT.

CARRY ON WITH YER SNIDE COMMENTS, GREEBO

AND ALL YOU CUNTS SHOULD GOOGLE EMOTIONAL LIABILITY IF YOU THINKS I AM GETTING THIS FUCKING ANGRY ON FUCKING PURPOSE.


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## Greebo (Mar 18, 2014)

FWIW I reported nobody.  I'd like this to stop, I'd also like tribal_princess to find the help and support which she desperately needs.  

If she only wants to hear from other people with her stage and type of MS, the obvious step is an MS board.


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## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

how do you know I aint? stfu. I aint your concern. Kewep my name off your fingertips.

you want it to stop? stop saying pigshit thick things.


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## Jackobi (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess said:


> Like I said on my other shits, if I could get buses 5 days a week and spend my days doing shit then I would fucking be working.



Is this a work programme provider trying to get you to do a course? If it is not a mandatory course, you cannot be mandated to attend under threat of sanction. The WP may try to manipulate you in to believing it is mandatory when it is not, so you need to find out the specifics and tell them to fuck off if it is officially 'voluntary'.

CDL had similar shit pulled on her recently by a WP implying that a course was mandatory when it wasn't.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 18, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> Is this a work programme provider trying to get you to do a course? If it is not a mandatory course, you cannot be mandated to attend under threat of sanction. The WP may try to manipulate you in to believing it is mandatory when it is not, so you need to find out the specifics and tell them to fuck off if it is officially 'voluntary'.
> 
> CDL had similar shit pulled on her recently by a WP implying that a course was mandatory when it wasn't.


How do you know though? Aren't some courses mandatory? Isn't this all going to change next month, or whenever IDS next moves his bowels (it's all the same)?


----------



## pengaleng (Mar 18, 2014)

Whatr an absolute FOOL I was to think I'd be able to come onto a forum I have posted on for nearly 13 fucking years and have a bit of a moan without being whined at about how I aint the only one. I couldn't give a fuck any more. I have a shit load of codeine phosphate and you just made my fucking mind up about what to do with it. bottoms up. I'm out of here.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

TEEPS!!


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

I shall continue to support tribal_princess here.
This MS thing totally does you in.
I have found that many many people don't understand it.
Here or irl.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

What I didn't get about ATOS was -
"Medical professional"  V  My GP. My neurologist. My physio. My outreach nurse. My counsellor (not now). My occupational therapist. General opinion.
Nuts, almost a quaint old lady making life or death decisions.


----------



## Jackobi (Mar 18, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> How do you know though? Aren't some courses mandatory?



I don't know of any mandatory courses, only mandatory work activity. In order to be mandated, a jobseeker's direction or mandatory activity notification must be issued, and if either is issued for a non-mandatory activity such as sector based work activity, it is illegal, as happened in the case with Cat Reilly, who was illegally mandated on to an SBWA.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

yardbird said:


> What I didn't get about ATOS was -
> "Medical professional"  V  My GP. My neurologist. My physio. My outreach nurse. My counsellor (not now). My occupational therapist. General opinion.
> Nuts, almost a quaint old lady making life or death decisions.


Not even sure they call them medical professionals  - healthcare practitioner is the most used catch-all title I've seen. And you're right, they don't know better than the team that sees you on a regular basis.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 18, 2014)

tribal_princess said:


> FUCK OFF CUNT. FUCK YOU. CUNT,. YOU DONYT HAVE MS. YOU DONT UNDERFUCKINGSTAND SHIT ALL. FUCK OFF.
> 
> I HOPE YOU AND YPOUR FUCKING 'PARTNER' DIE.



Yeah, thanks a lot for that.  Fortunately for me, I don't take tantrums seriously, or let them upset me, or I might take your wishing me dead personally.


Everyone I know who's been through the wringer of ESA and/or DLA and has a so-called "invisible illness" has been through similar shit.  It's fucking horrible, it's fucking exhausting and arguably it makes ill people more ill, but what other choice is there?  Going on the game isn't an option for most of us, so we have to put up with the heap of shit that the state piles on us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 18, 2014)

yardbird said:


> I shall continue to support tribal_princess here.
> This MS thing totally does you in.
> I have found that many many people don't understand it.
> Here or irl.



Unsurprising, given that the medical profession has only taken it seriously for a maximum of about 50 years.  My great aunt was told for more than 20 years that her health issues were strictly psychiatric/psychological.  It was only with the advent of MRI scanners that it was discovered that her nervous system was riddled with demyelination, and that she wasn't unable to walk half the time because of "hysteria", but because half the messages from her brain were either not reaching the other parts of her, or were garbled.
That's more than 20 years of being sporadically-detained in old-fashioned "mental hospitals" (remember them?), just because shrinks wouldn't admit to a possible physiological neural cause for a vast array of symptoms.  Much easier to say that someone was depressed or neurotic or even "adopting the sick role", rather than actually bother to investigate and treat a patient.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 18, 2014)

yardbird said:


> What I didn't get about ATOS was -
> "Medical professional"  V  My GP. My neurologist. My physio. My outreach nurse. My counsellor (not now). My occupational therapist. General opinion.
> Nuts, almost a quaint old lady making life or death decisions.



You're still seeing it the way too many trusting people do - that overall the DWP and ATOS are doing a poor job administering everything, but that their intent is to provide a service for *us*.
Their "medical professionals" are merely there to provide a rubber-stamped opinion for refusing us help, or minimising the degree of help - in short, their purpose is to limit claims and save money, *whatever* the social and human costs.  
Too many people still haven't taken that fairly simple fact on board, and it's understandable.  No-one wants to think that their government, their state, gives so little of a fuck about them that it's willing to treat them like shit on the sole of a shoe, especially when they've contributed to that state.

Also, I wouldn't say "quaint old lady", I'd say "murderously-psychopathic old biddy".  Why? Because a psychopath has no empathy for victims, just as the state doesn't, and ATOS doesn't.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

My problems with ATOS are now on the back burner now that I'm an OAP.
My last assessment I demanded a home visit with a recording device.
I said that I needed support because of my memory and understanding.
I said that my support/helper would be my SIL a retired GP and we would be bringing a stenographer who is in a legal position to sign off her record.
Suddenly the visit became unnecessary and no re-assessment would be required.
Wonder why?


----------



## 8115 (Mar 18, 2014)

.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 I don't think you can say that because someone can do the appeal they can probably work. If they could work they wouldn't need to appeal. Also, doing the appeal, even collecting the information for the form, has to be done over several days if not weeks because even that can be draining and wipe someone out for days. Working is therefore out of the question.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

And, 8115 you've demonstrated spectacularly the lack of understanding tribal_princess was talking about earlier. Well done.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> and if you can do the appeal you can probably work but maybe think about it.





i hope you didn't mean it like that, but...

that almost corresponds with the "if you're not well enough to attend the so-called medical, we'll cut your benefits for not attending, and if you're well enough to attend that proves you're well enough to work so we'll cut your benefits" line of thought which ATOS seem to have...

and then there's the 'logic' of the DWP saying "if you're anything less than 100% disabled / sick you can't have benefits" against most employers taking the "if you're anything less than 100% well we don't want to give you a job / keep employing you" line.

to be honest, if you're going to go for an appeal, assistance of some sort (well informed friends / family / urbanites or some sort of health support group / welfare rights group) is a pretty good idea.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> tribal_princess ...... if you can do the appeal you can probably work......


Errr No.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> tribal_princess are you in WRAG group?  Have you thought about appealing?  I know it's a lot of effort, and if you can do the appeal you can probably work but maybe think about it.



You're a bit clueless, mate.  Most people only tend to get through appeals with a fuckload of help and support from others.  being able to get through an appeal certainly *doesn't* indicate that you can "probably work".  Most people I know who go to appeal also find that their symptoms are exacerbated in the aftermath of an appeal, purely due to the physical and psychological stress it puts you under.  Imagine "brown envelope syndrome", but a hundred times worse, and stretched out over months.


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## 8115 (Mar 18, 2014)

.


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> I was joking.


If you were joking it certainly didn't come through in your post. You may have intended it as a flippant comment but given how fed up of the process tp is at the moment, do you really think joking was a good idea? Insensitive and thoughtless at best, and indicative of how invisible disabilities are viewed by many in the general populus at worst.

This thread is really for supporting those going through the process. If you don't have any useful support to offer those in need of it, please don't post.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> I was joking and also acknowledging that saying "oh you can appeal" isn't as easy as all that.


Let's not joke here, eh?


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## 8115 (Mar 18, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Errr No.


Sorry but that's completely misquoting me.  I was trying to make a helpful suggestion about a good way to proceed.


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

8115 said:


> Sorry but that's completely misquoting me.  I was trying to make a helpful suggestion about a good way to proceed.


No it isn't. And what exactly was your helpful suggestion? That tp can work? She's already said she would if she could, and she's made it clear she is unable to.


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## 8115 (Mar 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> No it isn't. And what exactly was your helpful suggestion? That tp can work? She's already said she would if she could, and she's made it clear she is unable to.


No, that she could think about appealing.  I'm not at all about telling people they can or can't work, that's not my business and it's not my view either.


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

Why have you gone back and deleted your posts 8115 ? As many of us have already quoted what you posted, it's a fairly pointless exercise.


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## 8115 (Mar 18, 2014)

Misquoted, and I was pissed off.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

811. Now that you've deleted the posts I have "misquoted"  who's to know.
Deletion as means to escape?


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2014)

Bottom line, after this diversion, tribal_princess if you want to appeal I'll help you if I can.


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Bottom line, after this diversion, tribal_princess if you want to appeal I'll help you if I can.


As would I.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 19, 2014)

Quite honestly just saying someone 'could' work if X a Y is meaningless. In fact it's downright provocative. It takes no account of the labour market, the altitudes of employers, conditions in society and government, never mind personal difficulties.


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## WouldBe (Mar 19, 2014)

Jackobi said:


> Is this a work programme provider trying to get you to do a course? If it is not a mandatory course, you cannot be mandated to attend under threat of sanction. The WP may try to manipulate you in to believing it is mandatory when it is not, so you need to find out the specifics and tell them to fuck off if it is officially 'voluntary'.
> 
> CDL had similar shit pulled on her recently by a WP implying that a course was mandatory when it wasn't.


 I've had the same shit. Infact it's still ongoing.


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## equationgirl (Mar 19, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> I've had the same shit. Infact it's still ongoing.


What have those fuckers been up to now, WouldBe?


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## WouldBe (Mar 20, 2014)

Still being called by A4E for mandatory appointments even though I'm in the support group and having told them last time that further such requests would result in legal action for harassment.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 20, 2014)

i thought they weren't recalling people due to the backlog.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> Still being called by A4E for mandatory appointments even though I'm in the support group and having told them last time that further such requests would result in legal action for harassment.


Time for a solicitor's letter I think, spelling out the legal meaning of harassment and why they should fuck off. 

The parasites.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> i thought they weren't recalling people due to the backlog.


The DWP are no longer referring to ATOS for assessment. This does not include people already in the system.


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## Quartz (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Time for a solicitor's letter I think, spelling out the legal meaning of harassment and why they should fuck off.



I'm guessing WouldBe can't afford that; would the CAB do it?


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I'm guessing WouldBe can't afford that; would the CAB do it?


WouldBe has a solicitor who has worked on their behalf before. That's why I said it.


----------



## Quartz (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> WouldBe has a solicitor who has worked on their behalf before. That's why I said it.



Ah, that's good news.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Ah, that's good news.


I'm not some internet do-gooder who recommends people get lawyers at the drop of a hat by the way.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The DWP are no longer referring to ATOS for assessment. This does not include people already in the system.


I'm a bit confused now: I was given to believe they weren't reassesing people that had beeng in recepeit of ESA


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'm a bit confused now: I was given to believe they weren't reassesing people that had beeng in recepeit of ESA


IIRC, Only those people who had not started the reassessment process before 21 Jan 2014 (I think that's the date). So if people had been sent the form by that date, they need to complete it and go through the process. If not, they're in a holding pattern for now.


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## scifisam (Mar 20, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> i thought they weren't recalling people due to the backlog.



A4E, not Atos.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> The DWP are no longer referring to ATOS for assessment. This does not include people already in the system.


So I guess that means that my 2015 reassess is not happening.
Not that I understand why they would given the OAP thing plus they  are nothing to do with DLA are they?
ATOS or A4E.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

yardbird said:


> So I guess that means that my 2015 reassess is not happening.
> Not that I understand why they would given the OAP thing plus they  are nothing to do with DLA are they?
> ATOS or A4E.


I would expect not at this point. The info came form a leaked DWP memo via the benefitsandwork website, so more information may appear over the next few months.

I'm not sure how this might affect your DLA in due course but that may be covered by the transition to PIP. I suspect any transition will involve some form of assessment but I do not know who does them or what form they take, or how they differ from the work capability assessments ATOS were contracted for.


----------



## yardbird (Mar 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I would expect not at this point. The info came form a leaked DWP memo via the benefitsandwork website, so more information may appear over the next few months.
> 
> I'm not sure how this might affect your DLA in due course but that may be covered by the transition to PIP. I suspect any transition will involve some form of assessment but I do not know who does them or what form they take, or how they differ from the work capability assessments ATOS were contracted for.


Thanks.
Well, I'm not going to improve so I will just wait and see.
Tbh once I'd got the bit between my teeth when dealing with ATOS, I felt I had them.
It exhausted me and made me unwell so I don't want to have to go through it again.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Thanks.
> Well, I'm not going to improve so I will just wait and see.
> Tbh once I'd got the bit between my teeth when dealing with ATOS, I felt I had them.
> It exhausted me and made me unwell so I don't want to have to go through it again.


I really don't blame you. If there is anything at all I can do to help you if/when you get called for assessment, just PM me.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 21, 2014)

here's half an hour of some confused ATOS representative being lashed by Margaret Hodge!


----------



## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I'm guessing WouldBe can't afford that; would the CAB do it?


 I already have a solicitor and I still have most of the 15 months DLA / ESA that was back dated 

And the DWP still haven't paid all of it yet.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 21, 2014)

On a bit of a posting break atm, but just wanted to say thank y'all for the help, advice, support and crossed fingers - got my assessment results and I've been put in the support group. 'relieved' doesn't even begin to cover it.
Thanks again, and best of luck to everyone dealing with atos/the dwp x


----------



## yardbird (Mar 21, 2014)

A slight lack of confidence in ATOS
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ading-government-process-claims-sick-disabled

I'm starting to get very worried about PIPS.
I'm in the south east. The first  area in the roll out


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 21, 2014)

More details about the suspension of repeat referrals to Atos for Work Capability Assessments is now available. See attached memo. 

My reading of this is that it doesn't affect new claims, conversion cases from IS/IB to ESA, or where someone reports a change in circumstances. If you're on ESA already though and haven't already been referred for reassessment, then for the time being, you should be left in peace.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> On a bit of a posting break atm, but just wanted to say thank y'all for the help, advice, support and crossed fingers - got my assessment results and I've been put in the support group. 'relieved' doesn't even begin to cover it.
> Thanks again, and best of luck to everyone dealing with atos/the dwp x


Made up for you lovey that's such brilliant news  

Yay!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 22, 2014)

Got a letter from the Department for Brown Envelope Terror today; i have a post-Work Programme appointment on the 3rd at TheBusesDon'tRunAtThatTime o'clock.

I know there are many many people way worse off than I, but the thought of stepping back into that place - the JC - really makes me feel quite sick. I don't think there's any getting out of it; being on ESA (in the WRAG - I knew this was coming) won't make any difference.

The worst part is that you are compelled under the usual threats to meet with someoen with no expertise in mental health, yet whom you must see and be 'helped' by. It's like being told 'we're out of medicine, so you'll have to drink this bottle of arsenic instead if you want to get better'.


----------



## existentialist (Mar 22, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Got a letter from the Department for Brown Envelope Terror today; i have a post-Work Programme appointment on the 3rd at TheBusesDon'tRunAtThatTime o'clock.
> 
> I know there are many many people way worse off than I, but the thought of stepping back into that place - the JC - really makes me feel quite sick. I don't think there's any getting out of it; being on ESA (in the WRAG - I knew this was coming) won't make any difference.
> 
> The worst part is that you are compelled under the usual threats to meet with someoen with no expertise in mental health, yet whom you must see and be 'helped' by. It's like being told 'we're out of medicine, so you'll have to drink this bottle of arsenic instead if you want to get better'.


If you are stuck with this, I wonder what the game-playing potential might be?

For example, YOU know and WE know that this person will have no expertise in mental health, but supposing you go in there with a list of questions about your mental condition as long as your arm, and keep asking them about them and how they think you would best be able to get around them in terms of finding work. Be sure to take copious notes, and take their answers very seriously - ask lots of followup questions, and treat them as you might a psychiatrist or senior mental health practitioner.

My guess is, if you push it hard enough, that even if they start out bullshitting, the increasing depth of your questioning should push them further and further into uneasiness...who knows, they may actually decide you shouldn't be in WRAG? (OK, that's my inner optimist coming out there )

Perhaps someone else has tried this approach and can offer some views...?


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 22, 2014)

existentialist said:


> If you are stuck with this, I wonder what the game-playing potential might be?
> 
> For example, YOU know and WE know that this person will have no expertise in mental health, but supposing you go in there with a list of questions about your mental condition as long as your arm, and keep asking them about them and how they think you would best be able to get around them in terms of finding work. Be sure to take copious notes, and take their answers very seriously - ask lots of followup questions, and treat them as you might a psychiatrist or senior mental health practitioner.
> 
> ...


It's an interesting idea; I can certainly bring the letter confirming my appointment with an actual Psychologist. That might bamboozle him, though I'm not sure what that achieves. For all I know they could put me on the workfare. I don't think ESA WRAG people are exempt (is anyone?)


----------



## geminisnake (Mar 22, 2014)

I had my 1st WRAG interview the other week. I was given 3 websites to look at supposedly once a week to 'keep up to date with the local job market'. That's it. I explained that I can't do a whole day of anything due to the brain injury/crap energy levels and the lady did say several times they are not expecting me to look for work at all.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 22, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I had my 1st WRAG interview the other week. I was given 3 websites to look at supposedly once a week to 'keep up to date with the local job market'. That's it. I explained that I can't do a whole day of anything due to the brain injury/crap energy levels and the lady did say several times they are not expecting me to look for work at all.


That's quite positive geminisnake. Sounds like your local advisor appreciates your situation and is also aware that you're in an area where there isn't much of a local job market. If only all advisors were as sensible.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 22, 2014)

geminisnake said:


> I had my 1st WRAG interview the other week. I was given 3 websites to look at supposedly once a week to 'keep up to date with the local job market'. That's it. I explained that I can't do a whole day of anything due to the brain injury/crap energy levels and the lady did say several times they are not expecting me to look for work at all.


Maybe that'sll be the case for me.

It's the uncertainty and the not knowing what will happen that's the worst part for me. I can't function like that. 

Not that this sytem can deal with such trivial matters as mental health/learning disabilities/autism spectrum type stuff.

Apparently I have a 'personal adviser', his name's Brian. I'm inclined to think he's not the messiah.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 24, 2014)

I've been told those on ESA WRAG have no end date to their work programme participation?

Can anyone else verify this? Comments?


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I've been told those on ESA WRAG have no end date to their work programme participation?
> 
> Can anyone else verify this? Comments?


you can only be placed with a work programme provider for maximum of 2 years as far as i know.


----------



## Doctor Carrot (Mar 25, 2014)

This seems pretty obvious to me but just wanna make sure by asking people on here. PiP is basically ESA part 2 right? In terms of it being a massive pain in the arse to fill the form out I mean.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> This seems pretty obvious to me but just wanna make sure by asking people on here. PiP is basically ESA part 2 right? In terms of it being a massive pain in the arse to fill the form out I mean.


PIP is replacing DLA. The forms will be similar but probably not identical. And at least as massive a pain in the arse.


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## Doctor Carrot (Mar 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> PIP is replacing DLA. The forms will be similar but probably not identical. And at least as massive a pain in the arse.



Haven't done DLA, I'm doing this for my friend again. The types of questions it asks and the way the work and benefits guide talks about them it seems to be the exact same level of head fuckery as doing ESA was.


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## yardbird (Mar 25, 2014)

A friend of mine - wickerman - who is v seldom on urban is going to ask about probs with PIP re his mrs who has MS.
I said here was the place to come.
God knows (who he?) you've helped me!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

yardbird said:


> A friend of mine - wickerman - who is v seldom on urban is going to ask about probs with PIP re his mrs who has MS.
> I said here was the place to come.
> God knows (who he?) you've helped me!


We'll do our best to help, tell him to post whenever he wants


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## yardbird (Mar 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> We'll do our best to help, tell him to post whenever he wants


Thanks equationgirl.
You were mentioned in despatches.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Thanks equationgirl.
> You were mentioned in despatches.


ViolentPanda and Greebo are more experienced than me with PIP and DLA paperwork for sure, but if there's anything I can do I will certainly help him.


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## Greebo (Mar 25, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip> Can anyone else verify this? Comments?


I've heard suggestions to that effect, several months ago.  It wasn't speculation.  From what I heard, if you're on ESA and in the WRAG, you might have to do the work programme until you either find work or fit the criteria for the support group.  For now, hold onto the fact that it's only "might", not "will".

Sorry about what you're going through, and the lack of definite information.  VP has access to the B&W site, I haven't.  He's been fluey for a week and is crashing further.  Right now I'm too tired to think straight for long.

BTW that last bit is a statement of fact, nothing more.


----------



## toggle (Mar 25, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Haven't done DLA, I'm doing this for my friend again. The types of questions it asks and the way the work and benefits guide talks about them it seems to be the exact same level of head fuckery as doing ESA was.


but check some of the guides on how to fill oin the forms, the qualifying criteria for the benefits are a little different.


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## Wickerman1 (Mar 25, 2014)

I haven't been on Urban for a couple of years but my good offline friend Yardbird suggested some of you good people could offer some advice.

Mrs Wickerman was diagnosed with MS in 2011 but the symptoms had been showing since 2003/ 2004. She is a self employed child minder and now finds that the MS is making work increasingly difficult, to the point where she feels she may need to give it up completely very soon.

Mrs W applied for PIP in August 2013 and returned the completed forms in September 2013. Since then - nothing, not a peep out of DWP or ATOS or anyone else for that matter. She desperately wants to scale back the working or stop altogether - her MS nurse has advised that Mrs W needs to take more time out to combat the fatigue that she suffers.

Multiple phone calls have resulted in absolutely no progress for the last 7 months. We don't know which way to turn now.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

Wickerman1 said:


> I haven't been on Urban for a couple of years but my good offline friend Yardbird suggested some of you good people could offer some advice.
> 
> Mrs Wickerman was diagnosed with MS in 2011 but the symptoms had been showing since 2003/ 2004. She is a self employed child minder and now finds that the MS is making work increasingly difficult, to the point where she feels she may need to give it up completely very soon.
> 
> ...


What did the last phonecall with the DWP say? Was there any timeline or indication of the next stage in the process at all?

If you have had no luck so far contact your MP and ask for their assistance. There is a growing body of evidence that shows once an MP is involved suddenly the mysterious delay vanishes and things start to move.

Best of luck.


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## Wickerman1 (Mar 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> What did the last phonecall with the DWP say? Was there any timeline or indication of the next stage in the process at all?
> 
> If you have had no luck so far contact your MP and ask for their assistance. There is a growing body of evidence that shows once an MP is involved suddenly the mysterious delay vanishes and things start to move.
> 
> Best of luck.


The last phonecall was last Friday and a very stressed DWP operative advised that Mrs W's application was 'pending - along with thousands of others'. Not a very useful response really.


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## equationgirl (Mar 25, 2014)

Wickerman1 said:


> The last phonecall was last Friday and a very stressed DWP operative advised that Mrs W's application was 'pending - along with thousands of others'. Not a very useful response really.


Not helpful at all. Your MP is the best at the moment. If you would like help drafting a letter please let me know.


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## yardbird (Mar 25, 2014)

What sort of letter to write to my/Wickerman's  dear MP Nicolas Soames is the question.
He's more into selling arms to peasants and shooting pheasants. Or is it the other way round?
^^ see above.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 25, 2014)

Any news about PIP is taking 6 months and more just to be processed. They, Capita and Atos, are trying to concentrate on serious life threatening conditions at the moment but are so far backlogged they have no idea when they will catch up.

Sadly there are people who applied for PIP in May/June 2013 that are still waiting for news.

Edited to replace Serco with Capita. Been writing about both of them elsewhere and baffled myself for a few moments. *sorry*


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 25, 2014)

Full Public accounts enquiry on parliament TV showing just how bad and how long it's taking for PIP claims to be processed. 

http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=15137

Transcript of meeting. 

http://data.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/WrittenEvidence.svc/EvidenceHtml/7821


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## Wickerman1 (Mar 26, 2014)

Incidentally, I have been selected to be in the audience on Question Time this week. I had to select a question and e-mail it to the editor by midnight last night. I made mine a very open question about PIP waiting times. It probably won't be picked by the producers though.


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## Frankie Jack (Mar 26, 2014)

Typical 
Last April, she found out she had breast cancer and applied for Iain Duncan Smith’s new flagship Personal Independence Payment. Eleven months later, she is still waiting for help.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 26, 2014)

Greebo said:


> I've heard suggestions to that effect, several months ago.  It wasn't speculation.  From what I heard, if you're on ESA and in the WRAG, you might have to do the work programme until you either find work or fit the criteria for the support group.  For now, hold onto the fact that it's only "might", not "will".
> 
> Sorry about what you're going through, and the lack of definite information.  VP has access to the B&W site, I haven't.  He's been fluey for a week and is crashing further.  Right now I'm too tired to think straight for long.
> 
> BTW that last bit is a statement of fact, nothing more.



No problem, whenever I post about these experiences I am always mindful there are people really going through much worse than me. But everyone has their own shit to deal with and anything else is just divide and rule - everyone ho needs it should get the help they want.

I rang up the DWP (anonymously of course) and the person I spoke to, who said hey were in the ESA deapartment, said that, regardless of what benefit and whether it changes during, the Work Programme ends after 2 years. Even if this person is wrong it's ot going to mater much - they re the DWP and non attendance for a post WP appointment will simply be marked as wilful non attendance (good reason notwithstanding).

My problem is that I don't know what to expct from this nonsense. I really don't want to deal with the JC again, particularly sitting in an open plan office wihtin everyone's easrshot discussing my problems with someone that's not a doctor.

I think I'm going to contact the Work Psychology department, they've helped (ish) before. I'd feel better talking to hem again.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 26, 2014)

Wickerman1 said:


> Incidentally, I have been selected to be in the audience on Question Time this week. I had to select a question and e-mail it to the editor by midnight last night. I made mine a very open question about PIP waiting times. It probably won't be picked by the producers though.


You should have phrased it in relaion to immigrants or the EU.

I notice IDS has yet to appear on any of the Dimbleoid programmes since Owen Jones made him look very small indeed. No wonder he needs us to fund his underpant purchases, the amount he must go through.

And no wonder ATOS want out; it's most likely nothing o do with the WCA and everything to do with PIP which they brought into as a pig in a poke. Unfortunately for us tha pig is the lives of real people and the situation is dire indeed. It's an absolutely messages that, again, Cameron refuses to address. This should be in the news a lot more than it is.



> *Mother who had mastectomy, chemotherapy and radiotherapy going back to work because she's STILL waiting for government help*


Big mistake: that is exactly the headline IDS wants to see - it proves directly to him his reforms are working. Pip (eveni f the lackthereof) has made this woman go and work (ignoring the matter of her health of course). As she hasn't dropped down dead (yet) as a result means everything is tickety boo.


----------



## Greebo (Mar 26, 2014)

Frankie Jack said:


> Typical
> Last April, she found out she had breast cancer and applied for Iain Duncan Smith’s new flagship Personal Independence Payment. Eleven months later, she is still waiting for help.


Iniquitous - benefits are part of the social safety net, and any delay undermines the very reason for their existence.


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## Greebo (Mar 26, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> <snip> I think I'm going to contact the Work Psychology department, they've helped (ish) before. I'd feel better talking to hem again.


They sound like a good starting point.


----------



## Awesome Wells (Mar 26, 2014)

Greebo said:


> They sound like a good starting point.


I'd like to know if anyone else has ny experience of dealing with them? The person Isaw way back when (and I'd never heard of this department before) is broadly helpful, but there are always caveats. I had told her I was seeking an aspergers diagnosis and she said that was something she could do, but hen rolled back somewhat to being able to provide a test of sorts to detect potential toward the neurodiverse spectrum (i'm still not really sure). So it's sort of 2 steps forward with 1 back. 

When  first went on the WP I asked her if she could help present evidence of my issues to them (who'd have thought the Salvation Army would have been so hostile to mental health!). She agreed to write a letter, but then changed her mind. I then ffered to write a letter if she would sign it, she agreed and then gave p entirely saying that, because the DWP has no influence over how providers run the WP, it wouldn't make any difference. She says she's on my side, but never really seems to explain how. I don't really understand what the department is _for_.


----------



## scifisam (Mar 26, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> You should have phrased it in relaion to immigrants or the EU.
> 
> I notice IDS has yet to appear on any of the Dimbleoid programmes since Owen Jones made him look very small indeed. No wonder he needs us to fund his underpant purchases, the amount he must go through.
> 
> ...



Except she'll still be entitled to pip even if she's working.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 26, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Except she'll still be entitled to pip even if she's working.


Quite right too.

Won't stop IDS from drawing conclusions though. He will think this process - as it is, warts and all - is achieving the desired result. Perverse as it seems.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2014)

Atos are withdrawing from WCA, it's official http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345


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## superfly101 (Mar 27, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> Atos are withdrawing from WCA, it's official http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345


Well they can always Google it like they have to for DLA since ATOS pulled out of that last year.

http://disabilitynewsservice.com/2013/11/atos-move-leaves-dla-decision-makers-guessing/



> Disability benefit decision-makers have been left without expert medical advice to call on for most of their cases, after the outsourcing giant Atos Healthcare withdrew from large parts of a key contract.



http://www.meassociation.org.uk/201...ing-disability-news-service-15-november-2013/



> Civil servants have been told they can judge whether to pay benefits to the sick by Googling their illnesses, after proper tests were scrapped.
> In a memo leaked yesterday, Department for Work and Pensions staff were instructed to look online when assessing new claims for Disability Living Allowance for under 18s and Attendance Allowance for over 65s.
> Shadow Work Secretary Rachel Reeves accused the Tory-led Government of showing “utter contempt” for disabled people.
> The Labour MP said: “Out-of-touch ministers need to explain to disabled people how they’ve got to a situation where guidance is being issued telling civil servants to look for advice on complex disability cases on the internet.


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## Greebo (Mar 27, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> Well they can always Google it like they have to for DLA since ATOS pulled out of that last year <snip>


FFS!


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## superfly101 (Mar 27, 2014)

Greebo said:


> FFS!


Look all we have to do now is edit every disabilities wiki page to include



> "
> This person would not be fit for work nor any Work Related Activity!"



Job done


----------



## Greebo (Mar 27, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> Look all we have to do now is edit every disabilities wiki page to include
> 
> 
> 
> Job done


Can you get me a warm icecream, and world peace while you're at it?  Ta ever so.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 27, 2014)

More here.

I just heard this from twitter


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## yardbird (Mar 27, 2014)

It would be good if a definitive announcement by the government was given.
ATOS are quitting ?
ATOS will continue with some things PIP rollout ?

What a fucking crock of shit.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2014)

_We will be transferring our infrastructure and employees to ensure consistency of service to those going through the process. There will be no change for those applying for Employment and Support Allowance._

plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose basically then.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 27, 2014)

What will this mean for the deferral of reassessments - will that still be happening do we think?


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## yardbird (Mar 27, 2014)

My mate Dave - Wickerman1 is on Question Time tonight, if he gets picked then his question is about ATOS.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What will this mean for the deferral of reassessments - will that still be happening do we think?


one word. fuck knows.


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## Greebo (Mar 27, 2014)

Paulie Tandoori said:


> one word. fuck knows.


That was two words, but still a reasonable guess.


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## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That was two words, but still a reasonable guess.


no according to the tories, the descriptor, reaching to your chest/head/above your head, is never satisfied if you've got one arm, even if you've lost the other arm, or you are paralysed down one side, or you have no fingers, or you might have other cognitive issues, but if 1 arm can mimic to ANY degree the actions of 2 arms, then 2 becomes 1 as the spice girls had it and i was correct and win the universe 





heh


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 27, 2014)

Surely if they are leaving next year (is it?) then the last thing any new company will have time for, as they will be inheriting the current backlog, is reassessing people. If the situation is that bad right now then assuming the new provider doesn't engage in catastrophic corner cutting (which would be a foolish assumption), it won't get any better then.


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 27, 2014)

> Atos Healthcare will continue to deliver the Personal Independence Payment (PIP) assessments in Scotland, north of England, London and south of England and to deliver Work Capability Assessments on behalf of the Department for Social Development in Northern Ireland.



source: http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/atos-healthcare/pressreleases/early-exit-from-wca-contract-977418


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## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> Surely if they are leaving next year (is it?) then the last thing any new company will have time for, as they will be inheriting the current backlog, is reassessing people. If the situation is that bad right now then assuming the new provider doesn't engage in catastrophic corner cutting (which would be a foolish assumption), it won't get any better then.


Sadly I think there will be a lot of people on hold for a while. A disgraceful state of affairs. 

If anybody is on hold they should be assessed as being in need of the benefit for at least another 24 months, and push any formal assessment back for 2 years. But that doesn't fit with the cuts agenda.


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## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> source: http://www.mynewsdesk.com/uk/atos-healthcare/pressreleases/early-exit-from-wca-contract-977418


That's PIP don't forget, not WCA. And PIP already seems to have ground to a halt given the anecdotal evidence.


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## treelover (Mar 27, 2014)

I wonder if US companies will be able to bid for welfare contracts once the EU/US Free Trade Agreement is signed in April?

god forbid


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## superfly101 (Mar 27, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> What will this mean for the deferral of reassessments - will that still be happening do we think?


The backlog was noticed in 2013 as being catastrophic and all reassessments stopped in Jan.

We will now have 12 months (min) reassessments backlog on top of the original Jan 2014 backlog. Add to that IB conversions and new claims from Jan until a new provider is appointed. 

This is going to be very interesting on what exactly the next move will be. 

ESA shambles
UC shambles
PIP shambles
Mandatory Reconsideration shambles
Walk like an Egyptian bangles  

I predict a fingers in the ears response until after the next election.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Mar 27, 2014)

this did make me smile a bit http://www.newsbiscuit.com/2014/03/...-all-his-cock-ups-into-one-universal-cock-up/


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## treelover (Mar 28, 2014)

ATOS Directors being interviewed on BBC


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## Awesome Wells (Mar 28, 2014)

That IDS, he was always nice to his mum. There was more respect in them days, you had proper criminals then.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

Got an ATOS form but lost the return envelope and sent the form back to the wrong address. Then I told the DWP and haven't heard back since. . . Possible loophole?


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## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> Got an ATOS form but lost the return envelope and sent the form back to the wrong address. Then I told the DWP and haven't heard back since. . . Possible loophole?


What exactly did you tell them? 

There's a delay on assessments at the moment due to a massive backlog. Keeping for regular checks on whereabouts you are in the system and make sure they have got your form somehow.


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## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

This was last year





equationgirl said:


> What exactly did you tell them?
> 
> There's a delay on assessments at the moment due to a massive backlog. Keeping for regular checks on whereabouts you are in the system and make sure they have got your form somehow.



I told them what had happened and the DWP told me that they (ATOS) had to go on "existing information" (from the DWP). That was many months ago - almost a year. The address I sent to was an office one. They never received it.


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 30, 2014)

Ibn Khaldoun said:


> This was last year
> 
> I told them what had happened and the DWP told me that they (ATOS) had to go on "existing information" (from the DWP). That was many months ago - almost a year. The address I sent to was an office one. They never received it.


Have you been told if you will be called for an assessment, and if so, approximately when that might be?


----------



## Ibn Khaldoun (Mar 30, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Have you been told if you will be called for an assessment, and if so, approximately when that might be?



Nope. About 9 months ago (at least) I had an interview saying they would interview me about work-related-activities sometime and I haven't heard a thing since.


----------



## Dr Jon (Apr 2, 2014)

Iain Duncan Smith Should Be Put On Trial Over The Work Capability Assessment Deaths


----------



## treelover (Apr 9, 2014)

> UNPOPULAR face-to-face interviews are to be axed as part of a Government shake-up of their Work Capability Assessment following recommendations set out by a chief medical officer recruited to review WCA testing.
> 
> http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/back-work-interviews-scrapped-after-3384060



WCA face to face interviews to be scrapped? not clear about this
and having to have more medical evidence isn't necessarily positive, many patients with long term conditions are basically left to rot with no real medical involvement.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 9, 2014)

treelover said:


> WCA face to face interviews to be scrapped? not clear about this
> and having to have more medical evidence isn't necessarily positive, many patients with long term conditions are basically left to rot with no real medical involvement.


Looks more like it's the "work-focused interviews" that are part of the WRAG that are being scrapped, but as you say, the article isn't too clear.


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Looks more like it's the "work-focused interviews" that are part of the WRAG that are being scrapped, but as you say, the article isn't too clear.



I had one single WFI in 2010 almost killed me! Must have made an impression as I was never asked back again


----------



## laptop (Apr 9, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Looks more like it's the "work-focused interviews" that are part of the WRAG that are being scrapped, but as you say, the article isn't too clear.



It reads to me as though it was based on one muttered comment from a SPAD over the third bottle of wine.

If that...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 9, 2014)

laptop said:


> It reads to me as though it was based on one muttered comment from a SPAD over the third bottle of wine.
> 
> If that...



It's certainly not exactly a coherent bit of _reportage_!


----------



## treelover (Apr 13, 2014)

I've just been googling people I knew when I was involved in music and arts to see what they are doing now, one ran the Foundry in Shoreditch, another is the Director of a large arts festival in Aus, another wrote Awaydays and managed The Farm, another is a Millionaire, started SJM Concerts, and people think that's sick and disabled people choose a life as restrictive and impoverished as being on benefits, etc.

two more went on to write for Corrie and wrote the play about The Mills,

sorry about the detour, feeling a bit maudlin, I could have been a contender!


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 13, 2014)

I know the feeling


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 13, 2014)

treelover said:


> I've just been googling people I knew when I was involved in music and arts to see what they are doing now, one ran the Foundry in Shoreditch, another is the Director of a large arts festival in Aus, another wrote Awaydays and managed The Farm, another is a Millionaire, started SJM Concerts, and people think that's sick and disabled people choose a life as restrictive and impoverished as being on benefits, etc.
> 
> two more went on to write for Corrie and wrote the play about The Mills,
> 
> sorry about the detour, feeling a bit maudlin, I could have been a contender!


No offence, but that's nothing to do with this thread. This is not a general discussion thread.


----------



## treelover (Apr 14, 2014)

I was waiting for that, maybe I will start one.


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## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

treelover said:


> I was waiting for that, maybe I will start one.


I think that's a good idea. There must be lots of interesting things like that worth noting and talking about


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## yardbird (Apr 14, 2014)

yardbird said:


> What sort of letter to write to my/Wickerman's  dear MP Nicolas Soames is the question.
> He's more into selling arms to peasants and shooting pheasants. Or is it the other way round?
> ^^ see above.


Surprise? I'm stunned.
Wickerman has informed me that his mrs sent an email to Soames and stone me, she's up for assessment at the end of this month!
I doubt that this is just a coincidence


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Surprise? I'm stunned.
> Wickerman has informed me that his mrs sent an email to Soames and stone me, she's up for assessment at the end of this month!
> I doubt that this is just a coincidence


Yay! Progress at last.


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## equationgirl (Apr 14, 2014)

I'm assuming it's not a home visit yardbird and that Wickerman will be accompanying his missus.

Make sure notes are taken throughout. Sometimes the assessor gets a bit precious about this, from anecdotal evidence, but normally they're ok about it. If there are any memory problems, either from the MS itself or from side effects of any medications, that in itself should be sufficient reason for notes to be taken.

When answering questions, go by how mrs wickerman feels on her worse day. There are no points given for having a stiff upper lip or muddling through. Also, make sure she doesn't turn up looking her best. Atos will simply take the view that as she can obviously make an effort for the interview, then clearly she must be malingering and should be working. No make-up, no best clothes. If mr wickerman has to help her with, for example, getting dressed or brushing/doing her hair, this must be mentioned. Any deterioration since the paperwork was returned should also be mentioned - if a GP letter can be obtained highlighting any worsening of symptoms or side effects I would recommend doing so. Keep a few copies and hand over one to Atos at the assessment so they can't claim they didn't receive it.

Best of luck to them


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## yardbird (Apr 14, 2014)

Thanks equationgirl.
I'm going to meet with wickerman and mrs in the next few days so we can talk it through and I can advise in any way.
I think the idea of a letter from GP is a good idea as he will know about her deterioration.


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## Wickerman1 (Apr 15, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Surprise? I'm stunned.
> Wickerman has informed me that his mrs sent an email to Soames and stone me, she's up for assessment at the end of this month!
> I doubt that this is just a coincidence


Definitely no coincidence. E-mail sent to Soames on a Sunday afternoon, acknowledgement e-mail received from his PA the following day. A further e-mail received from PA on the Wednesday advising that an assessment date had been allocated and the official letter from ATOS received on Friday.

Going through the usual application route produced no results for nearly eight months whereas a single e-mail to our MP achieved the desired result in less than a week. Mrs W and I are happy with the outcome but are less than happy that we had to resort to writing to our MP to achieve it.


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2014)

> When answering questions, go by how mrs wickerman feels on her worse day. There are no points given for having a stiff upper lip or muddling through





While that has been advised practice from welfare advisers, support groups, one could say now there is a clear issue with this:, if you put on the form or state how you are on your worst day, they assume you are like this all the time, not fluctuating, etc. The new regime is going to be more diligent and more cognisance is going to be taken comparing what you put on the form/stated at medical and how you 'perform' day to day, especially the unfortunates who it is decided need to be seen regualry or even have a fraud cases opened against them. The minimum for 'irregularities' is going to be a instant fine of 350 pounds.

at the very least, its something to be cautious about


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## equationgirl (Apr 15, 2014)

treelover said:


> While that has been advised practice from welfare advisers, support groups, one could say now there is a clear issue with this:, if you put on the form or state how you are on your worst day, they assume you are like this all the time, not fluctuating, etc. The new regime is going to be more diligent and more cognisance is going to be taken comparing what you put on the form/stated at medical and how you 'perform' day to day, especially the unfortunates who it is decided need to be seen regualry or even have a fraud cases opened against them. The minimum for 'irregularities' is going to be a instant fine of 350 pounds.
> 
> at the very least, its something to be cautious about


It is well documented that Atos cannot deal with conditions that vary. They simply seem incapable of understanding that on one day, a person can feel almost normal yet be crippled by pain a day or so later. If they are making this assumption then claimants have to use their worse case scenario. You will see that I recommended getting a GP letter documenting any changes in mrs wickerman's condition given the time that has lapsed since the form was submitted and the date of assessment.

And what 'new regime'? If you have any information about this then put them on another thread rather than this one which is about supporting those going through the process.


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 15, 2014)

The CAB advise claimants to describe their symptoms in the worst case/worst day. 

I know there's plans afoot to fine people for mistakes made in DWP correspondence/data, but surely that doesn't count here?


----------



## laptop (Apr 15, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I know there's plans afoot to fine people for mistakes made in DWP correspondence/data, but surely that doesn't count here?



Especially if your disability involves making mistakes in forms?

Blimey. Fines were floated in February 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12506273 

Were they implemented?


----------



## treelover (Apr 15, 2014)

Kafkaesque


----------



## Awesome Wells (Apr 15, 2014)

laptop said:


> Especially if your disability involves making mistakes in forms?
> 
> Blimey. Fines were floated in February 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12506273
> 
> Were they implemented?


I think they were in the latest raft of changes/reforms, though I can't be sure.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 15, 2014)

laptop said:


> Especially if your disability involves making mistakes in forms?
> 
> Blimey. Fines were floated in February 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12506273
> 
> Were they implemented?


As best I can tell, s116 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 deals only with errors that lead to overpayment ans the penalty seems to be limited to the amount of overpayment. But no fines are mentioned.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/116/enacted


----------



## Wickerman1 (Apr 16, 2014)

Mrs Wickerman starts on Gilenya today. We've now got a 6 or 7 hour observation starting at noon at the RSC Hospital in Brighton.


----------



## ash (Apr 16, 2014)

S


----------



## superfly101 (Apr 16, 2014)

laptop said:


> Especially if your disability involves making mistakes in forms?
> 
> Blimey. Fines were floated in February 2011: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-12506273
> 
> Were they implemented?





equationgirl said:


> As best I can tell, s116 of the Welfare Reform Act 2012 deals only with errors that lead to overpayment ans the penalty seems to be limited to the amount of overpayment. But no fines are mentioned.
> 
> http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2012/5/section/116/enacted



http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/m-33-12.pdf


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2014)

Wickerman1 said:


> Mrs Wickerman starts on Gilenya today. We've now got a 6 or 7 hour observation starting at noon at the RSC Hospital in Brighton.


Best of luck to you both.


----------



## stereoisomer (Apr 18, 2014)

My bf has just started this hideous process, after he had to give up his job because his ME was getting worse and worse. Got the form, he's filled it in but I don't think he's put enough detail in, going to have to help him do it again I think. The questions are ludicrous aren't they? As if there are any jobs that don't require much, much more of a person than that...

The envelope to return it is addressed to Atos- thought they weren't doing the assessments any more? I'm hoping that the whole assessment process takes ages so at least he won't have to sign on. Hopefully they won't take one look at the form and decide he's not sick enough. With any luck if it takes 3 months he will have got a bit better again- then he can get another job for a month. He isn't keen on the idea of prostitution (too much exercise) so I'm encouraging him to take up drug  dealing, it's the only way forward. That was a joke, sort of.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 18, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> My bf has just started this hideous process, after he had to give up his job because his ME was getting worse and worse. Got the form, he's filled it in but I don't think he's put enough detail in, going to have to help him do it again I think. The questions are ludicrous aren't they? As if there are any jobs that don't require much, much more of a person than that...
> 
> The envelope to return it is addressed to Atos- thought they weren't doing the assessments any more? I'm hoping that the whole assessment process takes ages so at least he won't have to sign on. Hopefully they won't take one look at the form and decide he's not sick enough. With any luck if it takes 3 months he will have got a bit better again- then he can get another job for a month. He isn't keen on the idea of prostitution (too much exercise) so I'm encouraging him to take up drug  dealing, it's the only way forward. That was a joke, sort of.


Is he on any medications? List all of the them with their side effects. Underline any side effect that appears in more than one medicine. Make sure he has filled out the form based on how he is on his worst day. Also, ask any GPs or consultants (if you have them) for a letter giving supporting medical evidence about his condition and why he cannot work anymore. ViolentPanda and Greebo in particular have experience of getting suitable medical letters.

Keep copies of absolutely everything you send to Atos. Everything. 

Also has he looked at applying for PIP (replaced DLA - Disability Living Allowance).


----------



## stereoisomer (Apr 18, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is he on any medications? List all of the them with their side effects. Underline any side effect that appears in more than one medicine. Make sure he has filled out the form based on how he is on his worst day. Also, ask any GPs or consultants (if you have them) for a letter giving supporting medical evidence about his condition and why he cannot work anymore. ViolentPanda and Greebo in particular have experience of getting suitable medical letters.
> 
> Keep copies of absolutely everything you send to Atos. Everything.
> 
> Also has he looked at applying for PIP (replaced DLA - Disability Living Allowance).


I've looked at the descriptors for PIP- don't think he could get it without exaggerating quite a bit. Can you walk 200 metres? Well, yes, most of the time... but it doesn't do him much good when the bloody bus stop is half a mile away!

He's not on any medication other than non-prescription painkillers which he canes a lot of and don't seem to do anything! Probably should get some that actually work, if such things exist


----------



## Greebo (Apr 18, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> My bf has just started this hideous process, after he had to give up his job because his ME was getting worse and worse. Got the form, he's filled it in but I don't think he's put enough detail in, going to have to help him do it again I think. The questions are ludicrous aren't they? As if there are any jobs that don't require much, much more of a person than that...
> 
> The envelope to return it is addressed to Atos- thought they weren't doing the assessments any more? I'm hoping that the whole assessment process takes ages so at least he won't have to sign on. Hopefully they won't take one look at the form and decide he's not sick enough. With any luck if it takes 3 months he will have got a bit better again- then he can get another job for a month. He isn't keen on the idea of prostitution (too much exercise) so I'm encouraging him to take up drug  dealing, it's the only way forward. That was a joke, sort of.


My commiserations to both of you - it's a vile process but has to be done.  ViolentPanda's resting at the moment, but I'll tell him to check this thread and get back to you when he's next online (probably tomorrow).  
What equationgirl said in spades.  Even if you find more of less the same answer going down twice, do it.  If there's too little space in the answer box, continue on extra paper attached to the back of the form (full legal name, NI number and which benefit the claim's for at the top of each sheet).

If in doubt, choose "no" or "not unless" instead or "yes but" when answering questions about what your bf can do.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 18, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> <snip>He's not on any medication other than non-prescription painkillers which he canes a lot of and don't seem to do anything! Probably should get some that actually work, if such things exist


IMHO he should certainly have a word with his GP (maybe a referral to a rheumatologist or a pain clinic would be in order?) as unrelieved pain definitely makes M.E. worse.  I'm not going to preempt his GP but a combination of anti-inflammatories and different painkillers to the OTC ones might work wonders for his quality of life, although they won't cure your bf.


----------



## stereoisomer (Apr 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> My commiserations to both of you - it's a vile process but has to be done.  ViolentPanda's resting at the moment, but I'll tell him to check this thread and get back to you when he's next online (probably tomorrow).
> What equationgirl said in spades.  Even if you find more of less the same answer going down twice, do it.  If there's too little space in the answer box, continue on extra paper attached to the back of the form (full legal name, NI number and which benefit the claim's for at the top of each sheet).
> 
> If in doubt, choose "no" or "not unless" instead or "yes but" when answering questions about what your bf can do.


That's good advice, thanks. My worry is that he's ticked 'I can do this no problem' for far too many of the things. Perhaps the way to look at it is imagine if you had a job doing this for 8 hours a day- could you move empty boxes all day? Then the answer's no. Could you bend down and pick up pound coins off the floor all day? (as if that's a job lol) It does say 'repeatedly and to an acceptable standard' doesn't it. 

Why can't the fucking form just say 'can you get up early in the morning go to work and work a full day? if not why not' surely that's the only relevant question. Fuckers


----------



## Greebo (Apr 18, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> <snip> Why can't the fucking form just say 'can you get up early in the morning go to work and work a full day? if not why not' surely that's the only relevant question. Fuckers


Word.  People who are longterm sick shouldn't have to go through so much red tape and stress when they need all their energy just to keep going, let alone have a chance of improvement.  

You need to think of the activities in terms of being able to do things safely, repeatedly, reliably, and without the claimant's condition becoming worse.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 18, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> That's good advice, thanks. My worry is that he's ticked 'I can do this no problem' for far too many of the things. Perhaps the way to look at it is imagine if you had a job doing this for 8 hours a day- could you move empty boxes all day? Then the answer's no. Could you bend down and pick up pound coins off the floor all day? (as if that's a job lol) It does say 'repeatedly and to an acceptable standard' doesn't it.
> 
> Why can't the fucking form just say 'can you get up early in the morning go to work and work a full day? if not why not' surely that's the only relevant question. Fuckers


This, really. I used to get a lift in with someone (15-20 minutes each way by car) and for the time I did that my health was noticeably better. He got another job so I get the bus now (45-60 minutes each way, plus a 10 minute walk to/from the bus stop) and although the distance is practically the same I am much much more tired after a full day's work. And I often sleep for 12 hours or more on a Friday because my system just shuts down.

You are right to be concerned that he's ticked too many 'I can do this no problem' boxes. They are looking to make cuts to the benefits budget still and if they can easily justify NOT giving ESA to someone then they will. He needs to probably put a lot of supplementary information together if possible, and try for a GP letter at the very least. If he can also get referred to a pain management clinic and/or rheumatologist as Greebo suggests then he should ask for that as soon as possible.

For example, he could write that the nearest bus stop is (e.g.) 400m away and walking to the bus stop would debilitate him so much he would not be able to work a full day without a significant increase in pain anf fatigue levels. The esteemed Mr Panda has given some much better examples for supplemental information about this.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> My bf has just started this hideous process, after he had to give up his job because his ME was getting worse and worse. Got the form, he's filled it in but I don't think he's put enough detail in, going to have to help him do it again I think.



Detail is the key, in my experience.  It's about overwhelming them with detail as much as possible, so that they're left with little or no "wriggle room" in awarding ESA.
A few key things to pay attention to, when filling the forms out, are:
1) that the tasks the form sets out (lifting arms, standing and sitting etc etc) will have to be repeated multiple times throughout the day, with all the concomitant pain and fatigue.
2) that the questions are *designed* to catch people out, so where questions are similar to previous questions, a similar answer has to be incorporated.
3) that the spaces left for answers are deliberately small.  Many people will therefore try to edit their answer down to fit the space - DON'T DO THIS!!!! - and end up trimming off essential detail.  If the box isn't big enough, then use additional A4 sheets, and index them to the question being answered, i.e. "additional sheet no. 10, Q5 'How many times do you need help farting, during the night?' ".
4) although it's complex and awkward to do, try to think laterally when filling in the forms.  For example, if he's taking any medication, check out the side-effects, so that if his M.E. makes him dizzy/upsets his sense of balance, check if his meds have that side-effect, and then incorporate that into the answer about symptoms, i.e. "suffers poor balance, may be exacerbated by having to take xxxxx twice a day".




> The questions are ludicrous aren't they? As if there are any jobs that don't require much, much more of a person than that...



The questions are designed to minimise successful claims, rather than to take account of actual abilities



> The envelope to return it is addressed to Atos- thought they weren't doing the assessments any more? I'm hoping that the whole assessment process takes ages so at least he won't have to sign on. Hopefully they won't take one look at the form and decide he's not sick enough. With any luck if it takes 3 months he will have got a bit better again- then he can get another job for a month. He isn't keen on the idea of prostitution (too much exercise) so I'm encouraging him to take up drug  dealing, it's the only way forward. That was a joke, sort of.



Does he have a diagnosis of M.E./CFS from a consultant, or is his diagnosis a self-diagnosis?  If it's the latter, then he needs to see a consultant rheumatologist as soon as possible.  If it's the former, then he needs a copy of the letter giving the diagnosis.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 19, 2014)

stereoisomer said:


> I've looked at the descriptors for PIP- don't think he could get it without exaggerating quite a bit. Can you walk 200 metres? Well, yes, most of the time... but it doesn't do him much good when the bloody bus stop is half a mile away!



Thing is, what people are deceived into thinking with such questions, is that an ability to walk 200 metres is the primary point.  It isn't. The primary point is how far you can walk without causing yourself discomfort/pain.  I can walk to my GP surgery half a mile away, *however*, I can't walk at all without pain, and it takes me 40-45 minutes (including resting time) to get there, and I certainly couldn't do it more than once a week at best without it causing muscle spasms bad enough to tear muscles.



> He's not on any medication other than non-prescription painkillers which he canes a lot of and don't seem to do anything! Probably should get some that actually work, if such things exist



What sort of pain does he have (I'll guess at joint and muscular)?  If so, he should be getting his GP to prescribe, not buying OTC.  His GP can prescribe higher strength, and provide larger quantities.  Works out cheaper most of the time, too.


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## Greebo (Apr 19, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thing is, what people are deceived into thinking with such questions, is that an ability to walk 200 metres is the primary point.  It isn't. The primary point is how far you can walk without causing yourself discomfort/pain.  I can walk to my GP surgery half a mile away, *however*, I can't walk at all without pain, and it takes me 40-45 minutes (including resting time) to get there, and I certainly couldn't do it more than once a week at best without it causing muscle spasms bad enough to tear muscles.


stereoisomer I'm just gong to pick this point up as some of the things you need to think about - pain, fatigue, and needing to rest may be part of the picture, but so is how able your bf is to do other stuff once he's even tried to walk that distance. 

eg Does his speech become a bit slurred or muddled?  Could he think straight?  Could he think clearly enough to answer a fairly complicated question or read more than a short paragraph of clear English?  Would his coordination or grip be compromised? With VP, if he's overdone it and then tries handling smallish items, his hands tend to flip the paperback or coins into the air.

No need to give the answers here, just asking as an idea of the context for the form.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Apr 24, 2014)

Of possible interest to this thread:



> *BBC News* has appointed *Nikki Fox* to the first-time role of disability correspondent.
> 
> ...Based at MediaCity UK in Salford, Fox will begin her role in June, working in a team of three broadcast journalists reporting on disability issues. She will be supported by producer *Ruth Clegg*.
> 
> ...



Via http://www.featuresexec.com/bulletin/news_article.php?id=23043


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 24, 2014)

_"specialist ignoring."_

I think you mean.


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## Greebo (Apr 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> _"specialist ignoring."_
> 
> I think you mean.


Yep.  3 hours of waiting (each appointment seems to have 4 people allocated it because of the allegedly high dropout rate) to be told words which boil down to:  "You're still ill but have got worse, you're not dying yet, you still know what you've got, there are no miracle cures, you're already taking what you're allowed to take, piss off and live with it."


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## Awesome Wells (Apr 24, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Yep: 3 hours waiting (each appointment seems to have 4 people allocated it because of the allegedly high dropout rate) to be told words to the effect of "you're still ill but have got a bit worse, you still know what you've got, there are no miracle cures, you're already taking what you're allowed to take, piss off and live with it."



The attitude seems to be that, if you have lived with X, then X isn't a problem.


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## yardbird (Apr 24, 2014)

Met with wickerman and mrs w at lunchtime today 'cos she has her pips assessment next Wed.
Well worth it, 'cos I'm quite versed in dealing with all that and I've been kept up to date by reading this thread. Thanks all.


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## Doctor Carrot (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks for the help given on here. I just found out today that my friend was put straight in the support group with no test required


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## Greebo (Apr 25, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thanks for the help given on here. I just found out today that my friend was put straight in the support group with no test required


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## equationgirl (Apr 25, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Thanks for the help given on here. I just found out today that my friend was put straight in the support group with no test required


WOOHOO!!!!! Well done you and your friend


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## Doctor Carrot (Apr 25, 2014)

Thanks! It's quite an indictment on civil society that I feel this pleased with successfully defending my friend's right to be left alone for a while, to not be destitute just for being ill and indeed her right just to be ill at all because it certainly seems like people are losing their rights just to be ill.  I feel like I've won a victory against all this, a small one but a victory nonetheless.  It seems ViolentPanda's 'bog them down with detail' advice was correct as that's exactly what I did, around 3500 words of detail! I do feel for those who are ill (fortunately I'm not) and who don't have the support of someone to fill their form out and walk them through the process.


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## Yata (May 21, 2014)

got a letter saying i have an assessment in a few weeks ahhh im just dreading the whole thing i mean like the second i opened the letter just this feeling of painful DREAD in my stomach like that i am gonna be homeless or something


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## yardbird (May 21, 2014)

Yata said:


> got a letter saying i have an assessment in a few weeks ahhh im just dreading the whole thing i mean like the second i opened the letter just this feeling of painful DREAD in my stomach like that i am gonna be homeless or something


Yata, you will go to the assessment armed with lots of advice and knowledge from reading this thread.
Starting with take a friend to make notes!
All the best for it.


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## Greebo (May 21, 2014)

Yata said:


> got a letter saying i have an assessment in a few weeks ahhh <snip>


(((Yata)))  FWIW that feeling of dread is normal - you get so used to a brown envelope bringing one bit of bad news or another that it becomes a pavlovian response.

 Best of luck on the day, try to have some sort of treat for after the assessment (the sort you can manage even on a bad day), and what yardbird said.


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## equationgirl (May 21, 2014)

Yata said:


> got a letter saying i have an assessment in a few weeks ahhh im just dreading the whole thing i mean like the second i opened the letter just this feeling of painful DREAD in my stomach like that i am gonna be homeless or something


Please try not to worry. The feeling of dread is unfortunately normal for this process. Make sure you don't attend alone, take someone with you.

Nearer the time we can talk some more about preparation for the assessment.


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## pengaleng (May 26, 2014)

so glad I don't have to deal with this shit any more cus my m8 gave me some things to do so I could fuck the JC off, it's liberating as fuck  I am retraining and doing all I can do to not end up back where yous are. fuck that, I'd rather die.


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## Barking_Mad (May 26, 2014)

My wife has atos reassessment tomorrow. I can't go with her and she has no one to take notes. Any basic suggestions?

Eta she had depression and an eating disorder amongst her problems.


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## Greebo (May 26, 2014)

Barking_Mad said:


> My wife has atos reassessment tomorrow. I can't go with her and she has no one to take notes. Any basic suggestions?
> 
> Eta she had depression and an eating disorder amongst her problems.


When was your wife notified of this?  I'm asking because it's unreasonable to expect her to do the journey, let alone the assessment, unaccompanied.

In a better world, you'd be able to reschedule the assessment for a time and date when somebody was available to go with her.  This isn't a better world.


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## equationgirl (May 26, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'm assuming it's not a home visit yardbird and that Wickerman will be accompanying his missus.
> 
> Make sure notes are taken throughout. Sometimes the assessor gets a bit precious about this, from anecdotal evidence, but normally they're ok about it. If there are any memory problems, either from the MS itself or from side effects of any medications, that in itself should be sufficient reason for notes to be taken.
> 
> ...


Barking_Mad this earlier post may be of use to your missus.


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## yardbird (May 30, 2014)

PIPs  and assessments.
I read info yesterday from an ATOS insider that the points criteria has been slyly moved again.
I shall search and see if I can find and post it, but has anyone heard about this?
(Goes off to scrabble about)


^^ Scratch that. 
It was hoax.
Sorry.


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## equationgirl (May 30, 2014)

yardbird said:


> PIPs  and assessments.
> I read info yesterday from an ATOS insider that the points criteria has been slyly moved again.
> I shall search and see if I can find and post it, but has anyone heard about this?
> (Goes off to scrabble about)
> ...


Best to know about the hoaxes though, otherwise people start believing them.


----------



## treelover (Jun 4, 2014)

> PIP is in a mess. We all know it and only the DWP try to deny it.
> But the surest signs that panic is beginning to set in is the fact that Capita have now more than doubled the pay they are offering to assessors in their attempt to get on top of the backlog. Capita health professionals now have a ‘_new incentive scheme’ _which means they can earn up to £900 a day. Not bad for physiotherapists more accustomed to earning £40 an hour.
> In addition, the DWP have rewritten their guidance to assessors in the hope of persuading them to carry out fewer face-to-face medicals and assess more people just on paper evidence, backed up by a telephone call to the claimant to get additional information where necessary.  Currently 98% of PIP assessments are face-to-face, but the DWP is aiming for this figure to drop to around 75%.  This means a big increase in the number of PIP claimants who will be getting a call out of the blue from an Atos or Capita health professional.
> We’ll be updating our guide to claiming PIP with more information about how decisions will be made about who gets a face-to-face medical and also with suggestions about how to deal with a phone call from a PIP health professional, by the end of the week.
> ...



latest newsletter from benefits and work(sub req for full details) valuable info on PIP/telephone assessments


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## treelover (Jun 4, 2014)

Will you be able to refuse to take the call at the time, you may be too ill to respond


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## equationgirl (Jun 4, 2014)

Nice one treelover thanks for the info - and good point about being able to refuse calls without penalty.


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## treelover (Jun 4, 2014)




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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2014)

I dunno if this will be useful for anyone claiming for or on behalf of those with M.E/CFS. It's the training document for ME assessors so may help to know what you're up against. Some of it really boils the piss, particularly the bit about it being all in the patient's head and that they tend to avoid physical activity.  In other words you're a lazy hypochondriac  

By the way does anyone know the name of that researcher who said ME was all in the head and has had to move abroad due to death threats? His name was mentioned in a thread a couple of months ago but I can't find it.  Apparently the DWP have welcomed him with open arms.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 4, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> <snip> By the way does anyone know the name of that researcher who said ME was all in the head and has had to move abroad due to death threats? His name was mentioned in a thread a couple of months ago but I can't find it.  Apparently the DWP have welcomed him with open arms.


Does Simon Wessely ring a bell?  My pavlovian response to his name is to start improvising weapons.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2014)

Yep that's the fella. thanks. 

See what you can make out of a wooden spoon, a box of matches and a packet of pork scratching


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## wtfftw (Jun 4, 2014)

certain death.


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## Doctor Carrot (Jun 4, 2014)

I wanted to know because I wanted to see if his 'research' was used as a source in that document and, it'll come as no surprise i'm sure, it is.


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## wtfftw (Jun 4, 2014)

I should probably ring up and see if they've got anywhere with my reassessment (questionnaire deadline was feb I think). :sigh:


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## chainsawjob (Jun 5, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> I should probably ring up and see if they've got anywhere with my reassessment (questionnaire deadline was feb I think). :sigh:


They've had my ESA50 since last August, not a peep from them yet, I did ring in about December, but nothing happening. I've heard of others who've been waiting as long


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## treelover (Jun 11, 2014)

> The DWP phoned me yesterday. A precis of the conversation goes like this:
> DWP: Just calling to see if you need any help from us to get back into work?
> Me: You have my records in front of you?
> DWP Yes
> ...



this was posted on guardian cif, its only anecdotal, but are the DWP now calling up disabled claimants out of the blue as it were to check if they can now work.


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## WouldBe (Jun 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> the DWP now calling up disabled claimants out of the blue as it were to check if they can now work.


I wondered what all those 0845 numbers were that keep calling me and not leaving a message.

Just as well I don't answer the phone to numbers I don't recognise.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 11, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> I should probably ring up and see if they've got anywhere with my reassessment (questionnaire deadline was feb I think). :sigh:


Aren't they shelving reassessments as of January this year?


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> this was posted on guardian cif, its only anecdotal, but are the DWP now calling up disabled claimants out of the blue as it were to check if they can now work.


How does this work? Will they stop your benefits if you say yes, or no comment? Surely, even though ATOS are shiteballs, you have the right to a proper medical?


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## wtfftw (Jun 11, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> They've had my ESA50 since last August, not a peep from them yet, I did ring in about December, but nothing happening. I've heard of others who've been waiting as long


I hope you're not too stressed in the meantime - and I hope that's reassessment so that you're on proper money while you wait.
I'm managing not to stress. Hopefully this give me a bit longer between assessments. I've not called them either. They can fuck off.



Awesome Wells said:


> Aren't they shelving reassessments as of January this year?


I was sent my esa50 or whatever just before the shelving. Presumably there's a massive backlog.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 11, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27767779

ATOS strike back against the DWP


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## equationgirl (Jun 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> this was posted on guardian cif, its only anecdotal, but are the DWP now calling up disabled claimants out of the blue as it were to check if they can now work.


I am in the process of checking this - I've now searched for two hours and I can't find anything referring to this.

Have you checked with the benefits and work website ?


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## WouldBe (Jun 12, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27767779
> 
> ATOS strike back against the DWP


That's just ATOS trying to pass the buck back to the government.

First ATOS assessment I had was secretly recorded. At one point I said "I occasionally hoover and dust". The ATOS report said "I hoover and dust" in several sections of the report making it sound like I've got OCD. This is blatantly ATOS' fault as they wrote the crappy software and charge the government several £million quid a year to use it  I was declared fit for work at this assessment.

The second assessment I had I insisted it was recorded. When ATOS claimed they knew nothing about this request, even though it was on the first page of the ES50, I pulled a Dictaphone from my pocket and said I'd record it. Assessor went white and started panicking and refusing to do the assessment. So I pulled the batteries out of the Dictaphone but left the one in my sisters handbag running. Assessor kept glancing at my sister all the way through the assessment. This time I went straight into the support group, no need to appeal at all.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 12, 2014)

No doubt that's what ATOS are doing, and if either they or the DWP were honourable i'd be more critical. 

They have blood on their hands and no amount of wiping, particularly on IDS' nice expensive suit, will change that.


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## Quartz (Jun 12, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27767779
> 
> ATOS strike back against the DWP



That doesn't excuse them from the way they've been executing their instructions.  Perhaps they should have employed competent people? Perhaps they should have employed people who bothered to be prepared? Perhaps they should have made sure they had sufficient recording equipment? There are so many tales in this thread of sheer basic incompetence, if not downright malice.


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## Awesome Wells (Jun 12, 2014)

Quartz said:


> That doesn't excuse them from the way they've been executing their instructions.  Perhaps they should have employed competent people? Perhaps they should have employed people who bothered to be prepared? Perhaps they should have made sure they had sufficient recording equipment? There are so many tales in this thread of sheer basic incompetence, if not downright malice.


I agree entirely.


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## Yata (Jun 13, 2014)

went to my assessment monday, wasnt really that prepared i guess but went with my dad and think it went ok although prepared for the worst now they said maybe about 2 weeks for a decision 

should be ok though going to be seeing this kind of support place the JC put me onto think its a charity they seemed to be a good place that help people with any kind of illness/disability and said they would help me with appeals etc did all the paperwork last week its a european social fund thing so just waiting for that to go through but they have said if i get benefits suspended then to call them even if it hasnt gone through yet

not gonna let all this put me off making some progress with sorting life out kinda been the week from hell with this crap had a fire in my bathroom last night been a bit stressy and now they gonna up my rent to pay fora new bath and painting bath room but staying hopeful that things gonna be ok


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## chainsawjob (Jun 14, 2014)

wtfftw said:


> I hope you're not too stressed in the meantime - and I hope that's reassessment so that you're on proper money while you wait.
> I'm managing not to stress. Hopefully this give me a bit longer between assessments. I've not called them either. They can fuck off.
> 
> 
> I was sent my esa50 or whatever just before the shelving. Presumably there's a massive backlog.



Thanks. Yes it's reassessment. I was put in the Support Group for six months after being transferred from IB, and this is the first ESA reassessment. I'm not stressing too much now, I've stopped expecting the phone call on a daily basis, sometimes I forget this is still ongoing, it's been so long it hardly seems real any more. I'm sure reality will arrive presently and abruptly though. I agree about having longer between assessments though (and glad you're managing not to stress), if there weren't such a backlog I'd probably be facing a further one about now. It really is hounding though isn't it when someone has had a condition for twenty plus years that a consultant has told them is lifelong and incurable (whether I totally agree or not is by the by), is repeatedly put through this stressful process? Counterproductive.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 14, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27767779
> 
> ATOS strike back against the DWP



From the article:





> Helen Hall, the firm's head of communications and customer relations, said more than a quarter of the firm's assessors had quit as a result of abuse they had been subjected to.
> 
> "They are professional trained people," she said. "They care about the job they do. They are doing a very good job of applying the legislation the government has laid out and despite that they are being vilified for it.
> 
> "The level of intimidation, the level of negative coverage about professional people...I'm not sure that's an issue that can be resolved by a new provider just throwing money at that."



Nevermind vilification, intimidation and negative coverage of those poor old professionals, what about the vilification and intimidation of the ill and disabled, who are constantly made out to be liars and scroungers at every turn?


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## Yata (Jul 20, 2014)

i had a letter saying due to recent changes money is now £xxx per week (same as it was before)

is this because of assessment? its been over a month now and this is all ive heard (got letter about 2-3 weeks after assessment) 

theres no mention of assessment on it anywhere it just reads like one of those they send out whenevr theres a change in the system or end of tax year etc except this time amount hasnt changed and i dont think the others said change of circumstance on. 

bit annoying cause really i have no idea if its over now or not and i really dont wanna pester the JC over it cause bad shit happens whenever i mention anything to them


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 20, 2014)

Yata said:


> i had a letter saying due to recent changes money is now £xxx per week (same as it was before)
> 
> is this because of assessment? its been over a month now and this is all ive heard (got letter about 2-3 weeks after assessment)
> 
> ...



gut feeling (and someone who knows more may be along soon) is that there has been some changes that mean some peoples' benefit will change, and yours for whatever reason hasn't.

I'd be inclined not to pester anyone.


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## equationgirl (Jul 20, 2014)

Yata said:


> i had a letter saying due to recent changes money is now £xxx per week (same as it was before)
> 
> is this because of assessment? its been over a month now and this is all ive heard (got letter about 2-3 weeks after assessment)
> 
> ...


I'd be inclined to let it be at this stage. You may have reassessed and there's been no reason to change anything. Their standard letters are a bit crap and confusing at the best of times.

Well done on not losing any money


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## Frances Lengel (Jul 20, 2014)

Another vote for leaving it. For the time being at least. If they've said you're getting the same money then why upset the applecart? And there's every chance it probably is some sort of standard letter which, like eqg has already said, are confusing even at the best of times.


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## Yata (Jul 21, 2014)

ok thanks for the replies I shall put it to the back of my mind for now


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2014)

Yata said:


> i had a letter saying due to recent changes money is now £xxx per week (same as it was before)
> 
> is this because of assessment? its been over a month now and this is all ive heard (got letter about 2-3 weeks after assessment)
> 
> ...



Standard crap "update" letter that the DWP computer shits out at unspecified intervals in order to give you a dose of "Brown Envelope Fever".


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## yardbird (Jul 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Standard crap "update" letter that the DWP computer shits out at unspecified intervals in order to give you a dose of "Brown Envelope Fever".


One time I had three identical ones in two days!


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2014)

yardbird said:


> One time I had three identical ones in two days!



Which generally gives us not only "Brown Envelope Fever", but "Brown Trouser Syndrome" too!


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## laptop (Jul 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which generally gives us not only "Brown Envelope Fever", but "Brown Trouser Syndrome" too!



Doesn't "Brown Trouser Syndrome" automatically rack up 30 points for "behaviour that is unacceptable in public"?


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2014)

laptop said:


> Doesn't "Brown Trouser Syndrome" automatically rack up 30 points for "behaviour that is unacceptable in public"?



And on the ESA-ometer, so they're making a rod for their own backs.


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## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> And on the ESA-ometer, so they're making a rod for their own backs.


I call it karmic payback for the shite they dole out


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## yardbird (Jul 23, 2014)

'Cos I've got MS, my condition varies almost daily.
Some days I'm totally incapable of doing anything yet on others I can do stuff.

Now here's the thing.
If I was observed doing things then folk might think I was fine and cheating to get my payments.
This is worrying.


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## Greebo (Jul 23, 2014)

yardbird said:


> 'Cos I've got MS, my condition varies almost daily. <snip>
> 
> If I was observed doing things then folk might think I was fine and cheating to get my payments.
> This is worrying.


The same goes for M.E. and rheumatoid arthritis.  Reach a certain point with these diseases and you will probably only ever be out and about at all on a few better days.  Very few people see you when relapsed or recovering after the extra exertion and/or stress the week or so ago.

The same also goes for depression and anxiety.  You could be completely unable to even get up on the worst days, but if somebody sees you out on a rare good day, laughing and joking with somebody down the park...

IMHO the fear of being accused of fraud is extremely harmful and scares people off even trying to do what they can by way of self care.


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## yardbird (Jul 23, 2014)

Some good news.
I had a call from Wickerman and Mrs W has had a good result following her PIPS assessment!
equationgirl & Greebo will remember.


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## Greebo (Jul 23, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Some good news.
> I had a call from Wickerman and Mrs W has had a good result following her PIPS assessment!


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 23, 2014)

Does anyone know the criteria by which these ATOS people assess students? I am on IB for mental health reasons, I have been on this benefit for a long time. Last year I enrolled on a full time  foundation course at uni . As I get DLA I kept my  entitlement to my IB which they have  still been paying me,  but  last October I had to fill in an ESA50. I didn't hear anything back from them until a few weeks ago when I received a letter saying I have to attend a medical in two weeks time. I am concerned that the decision maker might see my ability to attend a full time course as being capable of work. However I am only able to to attend uni because of the support I get for my disability. I am worried that if they remove my IB that might have a knock on effect and they will start looking into my entitlement to other things such as my  DLA which would mess it all up at uni because  a lot  of the support I get  (study skills mentoring,extra money for expenses etc) is given to me because I am a DLA claimant.
Furthermore even if they put me on ESA I would probably end up in the work group,and I'm not sure how that is going to be practical  I have no intention of seeking work while I am at uni. There is no way I would be able to continue with my studies and hold down a job at the same time.I successfully finished my foundation year and have been allowed to progress to the first year in September, I know this is going to be really hard work, and I really don't need the additional stress of them mucking round with my benefits.  I would normally talk to my mentor at uni about this but it's the holidays and she won't be able to see me until September. I have delayed things by ringing them up and saying I want the medical recorded. They have since sent me another letter saying the appointment  on July 30th has now been postphoned and I will be hearing from them again soon. This buys me some more time to seek advice, but I know it's looming


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## Celt (Jul 23, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Does anyone know the criteria by which these ATOS people assess students? I am on IB for mental health reasons, I have been on this benefit for a long time. Last year I enrolled on a full time  foundation course at uni . As I get DLA I kept my  entitlement to my IB which they have  still been paying me,  but  last October I had to fill in an ESA50. I didn't hear anything back from them until a few weeks ago when I received a letter saying I have to attend a medical in two weeks time. I am concerned that the decision maker might see my ability to attend a full time course as being capable of work. However I am only able to to attend uni because of the support I get for my disability. I am worried that if they remove my IB that might have a knock on effect and they will start looking into my entitlement to other things such as my  DLA which would mess it all up at uni because  a lot  of the support I get  (study skills mentoring,extra money for expenses etc) is given to me because I am a DLA claimant.
> Furthermore even if they put me on ESA I would probably end up in the work group,and I'm not sure how that is going to be practical  I have no intention of seeking work while I am at uni. There is no way I would be able to continue with my studies and hold down a job at the same time.I successfully finished my foundation year and have been allowed to progress to the first year in September, I know this is going to be really hard work, and I really don't need the additional stress of them mucking round with my benefits.  I would normally talk to my mentor at uni about this but it's the holidays and she won't be able to see me until September. I have delayed things by ringing them up and saying I want the medical recorded. They have since sent me another letter saying the appointment  on July 30th has now been postphoned and I will be hearing from them again soon. This buys me some more time to seek advice, but I know it's looming



I think there are a lot of us who vary day to day and worry that good days will be used against us.  It is what the appeal system is in place for. I did see a document last year detailing cases granted overturning negative outcomes.


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Some good news.
> I had a call from Wickerman and Mrs W has had a good result following her PIPS assessment!
> equationgirl & Greebo will remember.


Fantabulous news 

Please pass on my congratulations to them both.


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## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Does anyone know the criteria by which these ATOS people assess students? I am on IB for mental health reasons, I have been on this benefit for a long time. Last year I enrolled on a full time  foundation course at uni . As I get DLA I kept my  entitlement to my IB which they have  still been paying me,  but  last October I had to fill in an ESA50. I didn't hear anything back from them until a few weeks ago when I received a letter saying I have to attend a medical in two weeks time. I am concerned that the decision maker might see my ability to attend a full time course as being capable of work. However I am only able to to attend uni because of the support I get for my disability. I am worried that if they remove my IB that might have a knock on effect and they will start looking into my entitlement to other things such as my  DLA which would mess it all up at uni because  a lot  of the support I get  (study skills mentoring,extra money for expenses etc) is given to me because I am a DLA claimant.
> Furthermore even if they put me on ESA I would probably end up in the work group,and I'm not sure how that is going to be practical  I have no intention of seeking work while I am at uni. There is no way I would be able to continue with my studies and hold down a job at the same time.I successfully finished my foundation year and have been allowed to progress to the first year in September, I know this is going to be really hard work, and I really don't need the additional stress of them mucking round with my benefits.  I would normally talk to my mentor at uni about this but it's the holidays and she won't be able to see me until September. I have delayed things by ringing them up and saying I want the medical recorded. They have since sent me another letter saying the appointment  on July 30th has now been postphoned and I will be hearing from them again soon. This buys me some more time to seek advice, but I know it's looming


As far as I know they don't look at whether you are a student or not, but this is an unusual situation and as anything ATOS does defies logic, I wouldn't put it past them to make some crazy decision based on this status.

I recommend that you speak to someone at your nearest CAB and it's worth joining the benefits and work website to ask the question on thier forums to see what they say - I think this might be the first time this question has been asked on this thread. Interesting that your appointment has been postponed - might be for an innocuous reason (even ill health, oh the irony). It is right to have the appointment recorded. If you can, take someone with you to take notes too and as a witness as it is not unheard of for people to arrive at their appointment to be told that the recording device is out of order.

Congratulations on your academic success so far, you've done really well


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## Wickerman1 (Jul 23, 2014)

I don't post on here very often but was always going to post after the news received today, although I see my good friend Yardbird got there before me.

After 11 months since first applying for PIP and two and a half months since being assessed, the DWP brown envelope arrived for Mrs W at lunchtime today. Mrs W was understandably apprehensive and gave it to me to open, convinced that the letter contained bad news. We were therefore happily surprised to find that she has been enhanced Daily Living and Mobility components.

After hugs and a few tears (mainly of relief), my first thought was to ring Yardbird to thank him for his advice and support offline. I would also like to thank the guys on these boards, Equation Girl and Greebo amongst others for their advice and posts that were extremely useful to myself and Mrs W who have never had to lock horns with the DWP/ ATOS before.

It has been tough (it shouldn't have to be that way) and all I can say is, still keep kicking and fighting.


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## toggle (Jul 23, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Does anyone know the criteria by which these ATOS people assess students? I am on IB for mental health reasons, I have been on this benefit for a long time. Last year I enrolled on a full time  foundation course at uni . As I get DLA I kept my  entitlement to my IB which they have  still been paying me,  but  last October I had to fill in an ESA50. I didn't hear anything back from them until a few weeks ago when I received a letter saying I have to attend a medical in two weeks time. I am concerned that the decision maker might see my ability to attend a full time course as being capable of work. However I am only able to to attend uni because of the support I get for my disability. I am worried that if they remove my IB that might have a knock on effect and they will start looking into my entitlement to other things such as my  DLA which would mess it all up at uni because  a lot  of the support I get  (study skills mentoring,extra money for expenses etc) is given to me because I am a DLA claimant.
> Furthermore even if they put me on ESA I would probably end up in the work group,and I'm not sure how that is going to be practical  I have no intention of seeking work while I am at uni. There is no way I would be able to continue with my studies and hold down a job at the same time.I successfully finished my foundation year and have been allowed to progress to the first year in September, I know this is going to be really hard work, and I really don't need the additional stress of them mucking round with my benefits.  I would normally talk to my mentor at uni about this but it's the holidays and she won't be able to see me until September. I have delayed things by ringing them up and saying I want the medical recorded. They have since sent me another letter saying the appointment  on July 30th has now been postphoned and I will be hearing from them again soon. This buys me some more time to seek advice, but I know it's looming



I can't answer ,ost of your query, but I can say that proving you are in reciept of DLA is only one of the possible criteria for the support you are getting from Uni, which will be given through DSA (at least it normally is). If you've been told to give that as the info on your forms, it's simply because that is the easiest way to provide proof you need extra help. You have likely gathered together a bunch of letters and stuff discussing your MH for the proof you needed to claim IB, and that would give you the same result, just requiring slightly longer to explain. 

One thing you do want to have a careful look at is the planned changes to DSA eligibility. I know the planned changes would mean I'd loose mine (for dyslexia- which is the largest group of claimants). The gvt are under the impression that unis will make up the shortfall in available support, which is bollocks, but you should find out as much info about this as you can so nothing comes as a supprise.


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## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2014)

I'm really pleased for you and your wife Wickerman1


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## dynamicbaddog (Jul 31, 2014)

Thanks for the replies everyone
update
Feeling more positive this week. I have been to see the Disability Adviser at uni and he says he's going to write me a letter emphasising that studying is very different from working, and that I am only to able to attend  uni due to the support I receive. The student union have also said they will support me should I run into difficulties.
Asking for the interview to be recorded seems to have been a good move on my part as it gives me more time to put my case together.I have not heard back from them regarding the postponed appointment and in the meantime they are continuing to pay me.


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## chainsawjob (Aug 10, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> They've had my ESA50 since last August, not a peep from them yet, I did ring in about December, but nothing happening. I've heard of others who've been waiting as long



So I have finally heard from them. The letter says Support Group (which I have been in up to now), and that this applies until November. So I'm not being called in for a medical. Feel strangely non-plussed, not exactly whooping with relief or celebration. I expect I will get another ESA50 next month, sigh, as they usually go out two months before the end-date they give you.

The letter makes no reference to the ESA50, and doesn't make anything explicit, just says they have looked at my claim again following a recent change (that'll be the nonsense of a ESA50 you required me to return A YEAR AGO, after putting me in the Support Group for a mere six months, when my condition has affected my ability to do full time paid work for a considerable chunk of my life  ). The part that says I'm in the Support Group is just the 'How ESA has been worked out'. In fact the first thing the letter says after 'we have looked again at your claim' and you will be getting ESA, is that I qualify for the £10 Christmas Bonus  It's absurd, I'm sure they have whole teams working on making their letters as obtuse and impenetrable as possible.

Anyway, and breath... the outcome was good  And I have a couple of months to plan my next response. And I am actually feeling in better health of late, and have taken on a couple of voluntary things (which should be seen as positive steps to help myself, but will undoubtedly be seen as evidence I am capable of earning a full time living). Should I fess up about this work? I have waited a bit to see if it stuck, and would have answered honestly if they'd asked at a medical. I imagine it means I'll get put in the WRAG next time (if not found fit for work completely!), which I wouldn't object to if it weren't for the 365 day limit, oh and the WRA hoops you have to jump through, and it all being a pointless exercise, and the possibility of sanctions  Hmmm. It was much better when you could ask for help voluntarily with job seeking, and it wasn't all done under duress, and backed up by threats. I had a really excellent New Deal advisor once. The culture has completely changed, to a punitive one.

Anyway, I digress. Maybe the fact of a Support Group decision and no medical offers some hope to others waiting a long time, that the system has ground to such a creaking halt, that they are just making these decisions now without medicals due to the enormous backlog (if indeed this has happened for others too and I didn't just get lucky this time).


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 10, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> So I have finally heard from them. The letter says Support Group (which I have been in up to now), and that this applies until November. So I'm not being called in for a medical. Feel strangely non-plussed, not exactly whooping with relief or celebration. I expect I will get another ESA50 next month, sigh, as they usually go out two months before the end-date they give you.
> 
> The letter makes no reference to the ESA50, and doesn't make anything explicit, just says they have looked at my claim again following a recent change (that'll be the nonsense of a ESA50 you required me to return A YEAR AGO, after putting me in the Support Group for a mere six months, when my condition has affected my ability to do full time paid work for a considerable chunk of my life  ). The part that says I'm in the Support Group is just the 'How ESA has been worked out'. In fact the first thing the letter says after 'we have looked again at your claim' and you will be getting ESA, is that I qualify for the £10 Christmas Bonus  It's absurd, I'm sure they have whole teams working on making their letters as obtuse and impenetrable as possible.
> 
> ...



 at support group.

dunno re voluntary work.

this suggests it's allowed, but doesn't go into detail.

this says you need to declare it.

if it's a relatively modest amount of voluntary work, and if it's on the basis that you can say you're not going at short notice if you're not feeling well enough that day, it is probably OK, but I don't feel qualified to give a definitive answer.  The friend of mine that I've mentioned once or twice has recently had some hassle over this, but he does occasionally take on too damn much...


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> So I have finally heard from them. The letter says Support Group (which I have been in up to now), and that this applies until November. So I'm not being called in for a medical. Feel strangely non-plussed, not exactly whooping with relief or celebration. I expect I will get another ESA50 next month, sigh, as they usually go out two months before the end-date they give you.
> 
> The letter makes no reference to the ESA50, and doesn't make anything explicit, just says they have looked at my claim again following a recent change (that'll be the nonsense of a ESA50 you required me to return A YEAR AGO, after putting me in the Support Group for a mere six months, when my condition has affected my ability to do full time paid work for a considerable chunk of my life  ). The part that says I'm in the Support Group is just the 'How ESA has been worked out'. In fact the first thing the letter says after 'we have looked again at your claim' and you will be getting ESA, is that I qualify for the £10 Christmas Bonus  It's absurd, I'm sure they have whole teams working on making their letters as obtuse and impenetrable as possible.
> 
> ...


Yay at Support group 

Not sure about the voluntary stuff. I'd see how you go, personally, because by November your situation might have changed again like you say. You could declare it the next time you have to do any paperwork if you're still doing it but I'm not an expert. 

And yes, the letters are obtuse and usually contradictory in part. They won't win a Crystal award for plain English any time soon.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2014)

It must be two years since I last did the ESA form.  Reckon I must be due to receive renewal form soon


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2014)

Yep, just checked.  Mid-October 2012 got into Support Group.  God, can't believe it's come around so fast


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Yep, just checked.  Mid-October 2012 got into Support Group.  God, can't believe it's come around so fast


That IS fast, shit, time has flown by really quickly. What will you do, use the same information as you did in 2012?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> That IS fast, shit, time has flown by really quickly. What will you do, use the same information as you did in 2012?



Can't really as not under the same treatment


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Can't really as not under the same treatment


Bum.

You know I'm happy to help you when the time comes. We can do it the same way as last time if you like?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Bum.
> 
> You know I'm happy to help you when the time comes. We can do it the same way as last time if you like?



That would be lovely. Thanks for the very kind offer.  For now though, I'm just going to try and forget about it as I'll only get stressed


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## chainsawjob (Aug 10, 2014)

Hang on, I've just remembered what I posted a few pages back about reassessments being on hold for anyone not already in the process (this was announced in feb). Wonder if this is still the case, will have to see if I can find out (although I'm sure it can all change, law unto themselves and all that).

Thanks for the replies about voluntary work Puddy_Tat and equationgirl , I think I'll hang fire on telling them just for now, it isn't many hours a week.


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> That would be lovely. Thanks for the very kind offer.  For now though, I'm just going to try and forget about it as I'll only get stressed


Best thing to do I think, until the actual form arrives.


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## Celt (Aug 10, 2014)

Reassesments don't seem to be happening here, my friend got support group for 12 months in May 2013 and has had no reassesment forms, Minnie_the_Minx I think there are a lot of people who have passed their expected re-asses date, and I am sure will at some time be sent the forms and start again, we have to hang on to the knowledge that we did it once and with the support of people here and elsewhere will get through it again, you are rght to try and forget it at the moment, but have some plan for when it does come .


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 10, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Best thing to do I think, until the actual form arrives.



Half the reason I avoid this thread now is because it's a constant reminder that one day you'll get another brown envelope, and I just don't need it



Celt said:


> Reassesments don't seem to be happening here, my friend got support group for 12 months in May 2013 and has had no reassesment forms, Minnie_the_Minx I think there are a lot of people who have passed their expected re-asses date, and I am sure will at some time be sent the forms and start again, we have to hang on to the knowledge that we did it once and with the support of people here and elsewhere will get through it again, you are rght to try and forget it at the moment, but have some plan for when it does come .



Well fingers crossed then.  Have no plan for when it comes except to copy most from last form (deleting all the stuff that's no longer relevant)


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2014)

Hope its ok to post this on here, but from now on, The DWP have instigated a new anti-fraud/error system in place for all benefits, its very complex so I have posted the details here, but to summArise the new 'performance measurement teams' will visit unannounced and check all a claimants benefits and h/benefit, dla, esa, cs, pension credit, savings, capital, etc, child support. It can be a long and complex interview and clearly very stressful, the officer will also observe all your activity/behaviour and contrast it with what you have put on the forms, etc. They will be obliged to look for anything that can be construed as 'suspicious' it will be very robust and its clear they want to get back as much revenue as they can from errors and find new 'fraud' cases before the general election.

there are caveats, if you are not in, a number of times, they have to arrange a visit, but its really severe stuff, probably worse than the old Benefit Integrity Project, the DWP will make mistakes, etc and I hope it is challenged,

The info is on benefits and work site(subscription), but if equation girl or someone wants it I may be able to email or google for more.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> Hope its ok to post this on here, but from now on, The DWP have instigated a new anti-fraud/error system in place for all benefits, its very complex so I have posted the details here, but to summArise the new 'performance measurement teams' will visit unannounced and check all a claimants benefits and h/benefit, dla, esa, cs, pension credit, savings, capital, etc, child support. It can be a long and complex interview and clearly very stressful, the officer will also observe all your activity/behaviour and contrast it with what you have put on the forms, etc. They will be obliged to look for anything that can be construed as 'suspicious' it will be very robust and its clear they want to get back as much revenue as they can from errors and find new 'fraud' cases before the general election.
> 
> there are caveats, if you are not in, a number of times, they have to arrange a visit, but its really severe stuff, probably worse than the old Benefit Integrity Project, the DWP will make mistakes, etc and I hope it is challenged,
> 
> The info is on benefits and work site(subscription), but if equation girl or someone wants it I may be able to email or google for more.


If you could get a source for it that would be helpful. Thanks.


----------



## purenarcotic (Aug 10, 2014)

I am a member of benefits and work and can't find this anywhere.

I have also googled 'performance measurement and benefits' and can't find anything relating to this.


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2014)

its hard to find, but its in the member only guides section under, Employment & Support Allowance, then DWP employment and support allowances resources, you can also google the title from my post


DWP its going to be a nightmare for claimants in the future, its only a selected percentage but I'm sure it will be extended.

I should have mentioned the doc is the guidance these teams are given


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

This has been discussed at length on this thread: http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/dwp-planning-home-visits-to-check-benefits.324813/page-6

Seems to be have been prompted by some information going up on the government website.

And treelover you posted on that thread.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

In any case, further discussion should take place on the thread devoted to it.


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## treelover (Aug 10, 2014)

oK, memory, but please do look at the guidance, its not a minor thing.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> oK, memory, but please do look at the guidance, its not a minor thing.


I know it's not, but there's a whole thread devoted to it, so no need to have a discussion about it here.


----------



## Celt (Aug 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> Hope its ok to post this on here, but from now on, The DWP have instigated a new anti-fraud/error system in place for all benefits, its very complex so I have posted the details here, but to summArise the new 'performance measurement teams' will visit unannounced and check all a claimants benefits and h/benefit, dla, esa, cs, pension credit, savings, capital, etc, child support. It can be a long and complex interview and clearly very stressful, the officer will also observe all your activity/behaviour and contrast it with what you have put on the forms, etc. They will be obliged to look for anything that can be construed as 'suspicious' it will be very robust and its clear they want to get back as much revenue as they can from errors and find new 'fraud' cases before the general election.
> 
> there are caveats, if you are not in, a number of times, they have to arrange a visit, but its really severe stuff, probably worse than the old Benefit Integrity Project, the DWP will make mistakes, etc and I hope it is challenged,
> 
> The info is on benefits and work site(subscription), but if equation girl or someone wants it I may be able to email or google for more.



That is really scary, can we please have some confirmation of its validity other than from behind a paywall?


----------



## Celt (Aug 10, 2014)

treelover said:


> oK, memory, but please do look at the guidance, its not a minor thing.


I don't understand what this means?


----------



## treelover (Aug 11, 2014)

Celt said:


> That is really scary, can we please have some confirmation of its validity other than from behind a paywall?




if you google 'performance measurement' dwp', or go on disability benefit sites its all over them,

Celt
the documentation behind the paywall is that provided to the PMT's, its the gold standard, but someone will have to consider downloading and summarising,

and apologies for posting here, there is a mega thread I now see

sorry, that all I can add


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## purenarcotic (Aug 11, 2014)

I've found it now.  The site has put up the guidance notes for staff on why and how visits should be conducted.

Those being visited have a right to refuse entry to the worker; workers should attempt to rearrange visits and, if they think visits are being refused because there is fraud occurring, cases should be referred to the fraud team for investigation. 

If you need someone to act on your behalf then visits MUST be prearranged.  There's quite a lot about making sure you have your official ID on you but you shouldn't hand it over to claimants.  Lots of stuff about being pleasant and friendly.


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## Celt (Aug 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> Hope its ok to post this on here, but from now on, The DWP have instigated a new anti-fraud/error system in place for all benefits,....



to be honest I don't think here is an appropriate place to post it, this thread being *Atos medicals, questions answers and support,* and I don't see the details as being any of these,


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## treelover (Aug 11, 2014)

narco

great, hope it helps

if it worrying people then I can delete it all, but I think its very useful information
a
btw, I've apolgised


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## tufty79 (Aug 11, 2014)

There is also a list (from a few weeks/months back) of those who are exempted from unnotified visits - will see if I can find it later.

Edited in: "There are also certain classes of claimant who should never receive an unannounced visit, including:

“customers suffering from depression or a medically defined mental illness
customers with an alcohol or drug-related dependency
disabled customers where there is evidence from the preview information that they may be distressed if an MRO calls unannounced. “

However, where the visiting officer suspects, on the basis of your files, that you may be committing fraud they can still carry out an un-notified visit even if you are in one of the categories above"

From the b&w newsletter 
http://www.benefitsandwork.co.uk/news/2837-newsletter-30-july-2014


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2014)

treelover said:


> narco
> 
> great, hope it helps
> 
> ...


It is useful, but I do think it will further worry people who are already stressed out and worried about completing this form. You may as well leave it now - perhaps put it in spoiler tags so that people can choose not to read it on this thread if needs be - but please in future don't post similar material on this thread unless it's directly concerning the Atos/ESA process, and especially not if there's already a lengthy thread on the subject.

I know you've apologised and that's appreciated, but please just think before you post next time.


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## purenarcotic (Aug 11, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> There is also a list (from a few weeks/months back) of those who are exempted from unnotified visits - will see if I can find it later.



From the guidance its basically those who wouldn't have capacity in some form to communicate with someone unannounced.  So someone who needed an interpreter, someone who has had a stroke and cannot verbally communicate anymore etc.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 11, 2014)

purenarcotic said:


> From the guidance its basically those who wouldn't have capacity in some form to communicate with someone unannounced.  So someone who needed an interpreter, someone who has had a stroke and cannot verbally communicate anymore etc.


Somebody with a memory impairment or cognitive impairment...


----------



## angusmcfangus (Aug 20, 2014)

So they have finally got me. After my recent medical I received the customary 0 points letter for the second time in as many years,
Couple of points that those with more knowledge maybe able to help with. The first being on reading through the letter explaining why I got zilch points and what my options were if I want to appeal, as I got to the last two pages I got a feeling of dejavu as I had already read this part of the letter. On closer inspection I realised that they had sent me some other poor fuckers decision letter, some chap from Ipswich some 150 miles from me. Could I make a big fuss regards to data protection that may get them off my case?

Also after the usual 45 minutes of listening to Vivaldi I finally got through and spoke with the nice lady about how to appeal, who kindly notified me that before can appeal I first have to ask for a reconsideration. Which she informed me can take anything up to six weeks to complete, although in the mean time I could apply for jobseekers with limited capacity as to what work I could do.

So spent yesterday morning being treated like cattle with a dozen other unfortunates who had committed the same crime of daring to make a new claim. After being lectured and prodded and warned that we were no longer aloud to leave the UK whilst receiving this kind gift of support from her majesty's government, I was marched along to another pen to meet with my new jobbie coach.
He immediately began to interrogate me on what action I had taken in the last week, in seeking gainful employment.
So I began by explaining that I have been volunteering for the past 15 months three days per week with my local drug and alcohol service and have also completed my first year of studies on my foundation degree course 'drug and alcohol counselling'.
Forget all that mate was his response, you will have to reduce your volunteering hours and if you cannot keep up with your studies when we find you a job, then you will have to just drop out from the course.

'Please help me somebody', surely they cannot treat me this way, I know this may just be a jobs worth who feels he now wields some power over others, but for me this is a life or death situation, I feel strong enough at the moment not to pick up again after three years of sobriety, although I'm not sure if I can manage if they continue to push me away from everything I have done towards turning the negative in my life into a positive action


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> Forget all that mate was his response, you will have to reduce your volunteering hours and if you cannot keep up with your studies when we find you a job, then you will have to just drop out from the course.



Time was you could volunteer for so many hours a week without automatically compromising your claim, but the real issue is whether they look at you, with your volunteering, as an excuse to not do 'a real job', so to speak. In other words: JSA is paid on the basis of you being able to start work immediately and, more importantly, that you are available for work. So if you are seen to be using volunteering as an obstacle they can 'doubt' your claim. This of course means being sanctioned. This I think is also what he means by 'when we find you a job': that is, if you are seen to refuse a job _opportunity_ (anything up to and including actually accepting a job offer, even though that would be between you and the employer) because of study (or volunteering), again they will 'doubt' your claim.

The system is a sick joke. Record every interaction as much as you can.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> On closer inspection I realised that they had sent me some other poor fuckers decision letter, some chap from Ipswich some 150 miles from me.



So, what was the real decision on your case? You may have bollixed yourself by signing up for JSA, thereby declaring yourself fit for work.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> So they have finally got me. After my recent medical I received the customary 0 points letter for the second time in as many years,
> Couple of points that those with more knowledge maybe able to help with. The first being on reading through the letter explaining why I got zilch points and what my options were if I want to appeal, as I got to the last two pages I got a feeling of dejavu as I had already read this part of the letter. On closer inspection I realised that they had sent me some other poor fuckers decision letter, some chap from Ipswich some 150 miles from me. Could I make a big fuss regards to data protection that may get them off my case?
> 
> Also after the usual 45 minutes of listening to Vivaldi I finally got through and spoke with the nice lady about how to appeal, who kindly notified me that before can appeal I first have to ask for a reconsideration. Which she informed me can take anything up to six weeks to complete, although in the mean time I could apply for jobseekers with limited capacity as to what work I could do.
> ...



First off, you absolutely must raise the data protection issue. farmerbarleymow is the resident expert on raising such complaints i.e. what to say, who to adress the complain to etc, so I'll ask him to pop by the thread.

Second, have you appealed your decision? Around 60% of such appeals are successful at tribunal, so I would recommend it. Check the letter to see what it says about appeals.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

Quartz said:


> So, what was the real decision on your case? You may have bollixed yourself by signing up for JSA, thereby declaring yourself fit for work.


Is that really helpful?


----------



## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

Just having me tea - will post later.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> So they have finally got me. After my recent medical I received the customary 0 points letter for the second time in as many years,
> Couple of points that those with more knowledge maybe able to help with. The first being on reading through the letter explaining why I got zilch points and what my options were if I want to appeal, as I got to the last two pages I got a feeling of dejavu as I had already read this part of the letter. On closer inspection I realised that they had sent me some other poor fuckers decision letter, some chap from Ipswich some 150 miles from me. Could I make a big fuss regards to data protection that may get them off my case?
> <snip>



Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about you being fucked around by the DWP.  

But equationgirl is right - you _*have*_ to make a formal complaint about this, as while it is certainly a clerical error, it is an unacceptable one.  From the ICO website, you should raise a complaint with the organisation directly in the first instance, and as this is DWP, you should direct your complaint (using the ICO template as a guide) to whichever business unit appears to be responsible.  The details are on this page.

Does the letter for the other chap have his full address on?  If so, I would *definitely* contact him and explain what has happened (send him a copy, but keep the original for evidence while you make your complaint, but subject to what I say below*).  If it contains any medical information about him, even better - that is classed as sensitive personal data and would make the security breach more serious.

You could also contact your MP if you wanted to.  The press might be interested too - not just your local rag, but the one local to this other bloke.

Some Twitter feeds which could be useful to raise this in a nicely public way, which they'll loathe. *Do not* name the other individual on Twitter though as that might mean you are in breach of s55 as described below.

DWP Press Office @dwppressoffice
Main DWP account @DWPgovuk

* It is an offence under Section 55 of the DPA to make use of (and so on) of personal data which you are not entitled to hold, and this includes personal data which has been sent to you in error.  The DWP should, once you complain, write and ask for it back.  They may warn you about s55 too.  You have to either return it or destroy it - you cannot legally keep it, and if you did, they could initiate proceedings in court against you.

That said, if they want it back they have to either send you a stamped addressed envelope (you shouldn't have to pay postage, as you didn't lose the data).  Alternatively, you could hand it back in the local jobcentre, but in a very public way when it is busy - by loudly proclaiming that they have sent you someone else's decision notice.  They wouldn't like that.  

Happy to take a look at your complaint before you send it if you like.  PM me if you would like me to do that.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks farmerbarleymow


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Thanks farmerbarleymow



No problem.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Is that really helpful?



Yes. Generally, if you've erred, it helps to know that you've erred.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Firstly, I'm sorry to hear about you being fucked around by the DWP.
> 
> But equationgirl is right - you _*have*_ to make a formal complaint about this, as while it is certainly a clerical error, it is an unacceptable one...



Can I double-like that whole post? You're spot on.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 21, 2014)

I'd be careful writing to the other person directly. Maybe ask the CAB as to how they would deal with it. 

I know it's well intentioned advice, but I fear the recepient might think YOU are taking the piss.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> I'd be careful writing to the other person directly. Maybe ask the CAB as to how they would deal with it.
> 
> I know it's well intentioned advice, but I fear the recepient might think YOU are taking the piss.



I don't think that is necessarily right. 

Firstly, the other bloke has the right to know the DWP have done this, especially if the letter contains any medical information about him.  Secondly, in case like this it is extremely unlikely the DWP would write to this other bloke to inform him - they would normally only do so if there was a likelihood of harm or identity theft.  It is important to remember that data losses like this happen very often, due to the nature of large scale data processing, so it is accepted as an inherent risk to the business. 

And thirdly, if the letter to the other bloke was sympathetic and saying 'hello, I've been sent a letter meant for you' and contained a copy of the letter, it is unlikely the recipient would think it was a piss take.

I've seen this happen a few times and in every case the recipient is grateful for being told.  Angry too, as you'd expect, but grateful that someone has told them.


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## Awesome Wells (Aug 21, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I don't think that is necessarily right.
> 
> Firstly, the other bloke has the right to know the DWP have done this, especially if the letter contains any medical information about him.  Secondly, in case like this it is extremely unlikely the DWP would write to this other bloke to inform him - they would normally only do so if there was a likelihood of harm or identity theft.  It is important to remember that data losses like this happen very often, due to the nature of large scale data processing, so it is accepted as an inherent risk to the business.
> 
> ...


I agree, and a complaint should be made, this is a disgraceful situation. Just make sure it's handled correctly.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

By the way, angusmcfangus - if you want to post about it on Twitter, I'd suggest using the Press Office account rather than the general one.  This is because the media outlets will undoubtedly follow this account by default, so it is a good way to raise the issue quickly. If nothing else it will drop a nice negative turd into their shiny stream of positive glossy spin.  

You could say something like 'is it DWP policy to send decisions on benefits to complete strangers in a different part of the country?'  If the letter does contain medical info, mention that too.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> Firstly, the other bloke has the right to know the DWP have done this, especially if the letter contains any medical information about him.



I agree but perhaps it's *better* that the notice comes from the Information Commissioner's Office? Then they'd have confirmation that the matter was being dealt with, complete with reference numbers etc for the other person to pursue at their end.


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## angusmcfangus (Aug 21, 2014)

Thanks for all the helpful reply's, Quartz I was aware of the implications of claiming jobseekers but there is no way we can survive on nothing for the six weeks it may take for the mandatory reconsideration process to be completed, before I can then make an appeal.

Thanks equation girl & farmerbarley regarding the breach of data protection. I had to call the office from where the information was sent from this morning about the appeal procedure regarding my claim. At the end of the conversation I told the advisor about there breach of the data protection act 1998. He seemed to take the matter seriously enough, although said it was just a simple clerical error and someone had just put someone else's details into my envelope. I told him I was not happy and was extremely concerned that someone in the Norfolk area may have received my name and address as this put myself and my family in danger if this information was to become known to the criminal fraternity in that area. He informed me that this matter would be taken seriously and that I would be contacted by telephone within three hours, although they have not called me again today!

  The mistaken letter I received along with mine, only contains the fellow's name and full postal address and details  saying that he has also failed his work capability assessment, although it does not give any further details. I agree and will send the fellow a copy of the letter tomorrow and make an official complaint.
Don't get me wrong I'm looking forward to getting back into paid employment and have turned my life around in many ways. I never dreamed I would be studying for a degree as an over 50s man, having left school with no qualifications and having never written an essay in my puff. I enjoy my volunteer position three days a week and I can fit my studies in around this comfortably. I just don't understand the mentality of finding me with my prolapsed disk and copd (ex welder) some workfare scheme or other shite job that could lead me back to relapse and probably death (I don't feel I have another recovery in me).


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## angusmcfangus (Aug 21, 2014)

farmerbarleymow said:


> By the way, angusmcfangus - if you want to post about it on Twitter, I'd suggest using the Press Office account rather than the general one.  This is because the media outlets will undoubtedly follow this account by default, so it is a good way to raise the issue quickly. If nothing else it will drop a nice negative turd into their shiny stream of positive glossy spin.
> 
> You could say something like 'is it DWP policy to send decisions on benefits to complete strangers in a different part of the country?'  If the letter does contain medical info, mention that too.


Thanks but I have never managed to get my head around twatter.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

Jeebus angusmcfangus, I really feel for you. The State seems to have failed you in so many ways.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> Thanks but I have never managed to get my head around twatter.


I can help you if you like?


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I agree but perhaps it's *better* that the notice comes from the Information Commissioner's Office? Then they'd have confirmation that the matter was being dealt with, complete with reference numbers etc for the other person to pursue at their end.


The ICO wouldn't write to any affected third parties like that as that's not within their remit. They can tell a data controller to take such steps though, as part of their enforcement powers.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

Quartz said:


> I agree but perhaps it's *better* that the notice comes from the Information Commissioner's Office? Then they'd have confirmation that the matter was being dealt with, complete with reference numbers etc for the other person to pursue at their end.


Farmerbarleymow does this for a living. If he's advised a certain way of doing a complaint, it's because it's the most effective way to get resolution.


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## farmerbarleymow (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I can help you if you like?


I was thinking the same thing.


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## Quartz (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Farmerbarleymow does this for a living. If he's advised a certain way of doing a complaint, it's because it's the most effective way to get resolution.



I had forgotten that. In that case I will certainly defer to his advice.


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## angusmcfangus (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I can help you if you like?


Count me in, how can you help thanks.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> Count me in, how can you help thanks.


I can talk you through getting set upon twitter and do messages for you to cut and paste into your twitter account, if you need a hand getting started.


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## angusmcfangus (Aug 21, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I can talk you through getting set upon twitter and do messages for you to cut and paste into your twitter account, if you need a hand getting started.


Yes please, I have just tried I have an old account archiemgurk which I just posted a message about DWP saving on postage, but I can't see it on the DWP press page where I thought I was posting.


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## equationgirl (Aug 22, 2014)

angusmcfangus said:


> Yes please, I have just tried I have an old account archiemgurk which I just posted a message about DWP saving on postage, but I can't see it on the DWP press page where I thought I was posting.



You've posted to your own page - you need to include their twitter ID @dwppressoffice so that they see it.


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## Frances Lengel (Aug 23, 2014)

Quartz said:


> So, what was the real decision on your case?* You may have bollixed yourself by signing up for JSA, thereby declaring yourself fit for work.*



Not necessarily - I can see where you're coming from but when I got kicked off the sick, I signed on for JSA - And continued to claim JSA even after I'd won my appeal to get back on the sick until my sick got re-instated. Claiming JSA while the OP waits to hear about his/her ESA will have no bearing on whether he/she ends up getting back on ESA.

E2a - The above doesn't read very coherently - Hope people can make sense of it.


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## Greebo (Aug 23, 2014)

An ATOS appointment letter has just arrived.  *starts breathing deeply while reciting the litany against fear*


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2014)

Arrived over a year after I sent the bloody form back to them, too.  That they took that long to respond *doesn't* fill me with hope for the process itself.
Anyway, come monday I'll be phoning them and requesting that they reschedule the appt, given that Greebo and I will be on "holiday" (a visit to see my parents, nuthin' fancy) on the date they've given me.
I'll also be phoning a mate who's been to the assessment centre in question before, to find out the lay of the land stairs/lifts-wise, and visiting my GP in the hopes of getting a letter explaining why I can't use public transport to get there, and why they'll have to pay for a cab.


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## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Arrived over a year after I sent the bloody form back to them, too.  That they took that long to respond *doesn't* fill me with hope for the process itself.
> Anyway, come monday I'll be phoning them and requesting that they reschedule the appt, given that Greebo and I will be on "holiday" (a visit to see my parents, nuthin' fancy) on the date they've given me.
> I'll also be phoning a mate who's been to the assessment centre in question before, to find out the lay of the land stairs/lifts-wise, and visiting my GP in the hopes of getting a letter explaining why I can't use public transport to get there, and why they'll have to pay for a cab.


Will you be requesting recording as well?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Will you be requesting recording as well?



Yes indeed!!! I have a legitimate medical reason to do so, too - my problems with short-term memory, as documented in the plethora of extra info I sent in with my ESA50! 
I'll also be taking along my own Olympus digital recorder, my digital video recorder watch, and my digital voice recorder pen, just in case...


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes indeed!!! I have a legitimate medical reason to do so, too - my problems with short-term memory, as documented in the plethora of extra info I sent in with my ESA50!
> I'll also be taking along my own Olympus digital recorder, my digital video recorder watch, and my digital voice recorder pen, just in case...


I'm glad you are 

And I wholeheartedly endorse the multiple devices plan - you know what battery life can be like


----------



## toggle (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes indeed!!! I have a legitimate medical reason to do so, too - my problems with short-term memory, as documented in the plethora of extra info I sent in with my ESA50!
> I'll also be taking along my own Olympus digital recorder, my digital video recorder watch, and my digital voice recorder pen, just in case...



can you qualify for a home visit?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2014)

toggle said:


> can you qualify for a home visit?



It's possible. Something to ponder over, anyway, although frankly I'll be far more physically-uncomfortable if I attend the assessment centre, and I'd like to be able to project that at the "healthcare professional" (whose credentials I will be enquiring after, too!).


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## toggle (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's possible. Something to ponder over, anyway, although frankly I'll be far more physically-uncomfortable if I attend the assessment centre, and I'd like to be able to project that at the "healthcare professional" (whose credentials I will be enquiring after, too!).



there is a point where having them on your territory could be advantagious. 

or where asking for a recorded home visit may make them go away entirely. did for himself, but i suspect his gp also did quite a good job explaining the severity of his loopyness, to the point no one wanted to be in the same room as the scary crazy person


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## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's possible. Something to ponder over, anyway, although frankly I'll be far more physically-uncomfortable if I attend the assessment centre, and I'd like to be able to project that at the "healthcare professional" (whose credentials I will be enquiring after, too!).


iirc there was some discussion upthread (waaaaay upthread) with yardbird about the more physical problems you and he can sometimes experience. I think it's important for the assessor (I'm not calling them a healthcare professional) to see that


----------



## cesare (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Arrived over a year after I sent the bloody form back to them, too.  That they took that long to respond *doesn't* fill me with hope for the process itself.
> Anyway, come monday I'll be phoning them and requesting that they reschedule the appt, given that Greebo and I will be on "holiday" (a visit to see my parents, nuthin' fancy) on the date they've given me.
> I'll also be phoning a mate who's been to the assessment centre in question before, to find out the lay of the land stairs/lifts-wise, and visiting my GP in the hopes of getting a letter explaining why I can't use public transport to get there, and why they'll have to pay for a cab.


Is it the one in North London?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2014)

cesare said:


> Is it the one in North London?



No, Irene Hse in Balham. I'm fairly sure there are accessibility issues, though.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2014)

toggle said:


> there is a point where having them on your territory could be advantagious.
> 
> or where asking for a recorded home visit may make them go away entirely. did for himself, but i suspect his gp also did quite a good job explaining the severity of his loopyness, to the point no one wanted to be in the same room as the scary crazy person



There's the rub, though, My GPs only ever see me when I'm well enough to attend the surgery, so they're unlikely to have written anything particularly scary.


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## cesare (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, Irene Hse in Balham. I'm fairly sure there are accessibility issues, though.


I haven't been to that one. They've installed a lift in the North London one, which I have been to.The ATOS website says that there's a ground floor assessment facility at Irene House though: http://www.atoshealthcare.com/claimants/locations_home/locations_details_balham


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## tufty79 (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, Irene Hse in Balham. I'm fairly sure there are accessibility issues, though.


I was assessed there, many moons ago. The reception area & my assessment were all on the ground floor, if that's any help..

Best of luck with it VP.


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## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No, Irene Hse in Balham. I'm fairly sure there are accessibility issues, though.


http://issuu.com/file_view/docs/assessment_centre_location_list

This link claims it's on the ground floor and there is no lift. I'd verify that though.


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## superfly101 (Aug 23, 2014)

Balham is ground floor I've been twice - not sure on wheel chair access to the door? Street View should show you. 

Scored nil points in 2  ESA assessment there since 2010 \o/

I didn't turn up to my DLA appeal Wednesday..... got a form today saying stayed wanting more medical evidence! My GP is nice but very dippy at times and they want my permission to get all my medical records. I'm scared


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## equationgirl (Aug 23, 2014)

superfly101 said:


> Balham is ground floor I've been twice - not sure on wheel chair access to the door? Street View should show you.
> 
> Scored nil points in 2  ESA assessment there since 2010 \o/
> 
> I didn't turn up to my DLA appeal Wednesday..... got a form today saying stayed wanting more medical evidence! My GP is nice but very dippy at times and they want my permission to get all my medical records. I'm scared


Don't be scared. They just want as much information as possible to make a fair decision. Can you speak to your GP?


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## toggle (Aug 23, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> There's the rub, though, My GPs only ever see me when I'm well enough to attend the surgery, so they're unlikely to have written anything particularly scary.


himself had only seen this bloke once, maybee twice before. but he  enough for the bloke that dosren't notice body language to see when atos were mentioned. and called at nearly 8pm, himself,to say he had completed a letter fort the home visit. so i think the impressive nature of the letter was down to him bothering to do it well cause he hates atos.


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## Doctor Carrot (Sep 2, 2014)

Not sure what to make of this.  The friend I was helping has had a letter calling her for an interview at a job centre and they've asked her to bring a whole load of documents like passport, bank statements, utility bill, rent agreement and so on.  She was placed in the support group about 6 months ago and they've left her alone.  What makes me a bit suspicious is it says 'you agreed to tell us about any changes in your circumstances when you claimed for benefit' it also says 'if there has been an unreported change in your circumstances then any over payment needs to be paid back and extra penalties may incur' or words to that effect.  It sounds like someone's grassed her up to me but I don't wanna suggest that idea to her to stress her out further. I can't think of anyone who would but it just seems dodgy to me or is this standard fare from these cunts? Anyway her circumstances haven't changed one iota and she's still as unwell as she was when placed in the support group. Is there a way I can get her out of attending? She's too ill to travel very far anyway and this was made clear in the supporting documents I submitted with her ESA. Can anyone advise? Thanks.


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## Quartz (Sep 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> I can't think of anyone who would but it just seems dodgy to me or is this standard fare from these cunts?



Could it be a random check?


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## toggle (Sep 2, 2014)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Not sure what to make of this.  The friend I was helping has had a letter calling her for an interview at a job centre and they've asked her to bring a whole load of documents like passport, bank statements, utility bill, rent agreement and so on.  She was placed in the support group about 6 months ago and they've left her alone.  What makes me a bit suspicious is it says 'you agreed to tell us about any changes in your circumstances when you claimed for benefit' it also says 'if there has been an unreported change in your circumstances then any over payment needs to be paid back and extra penalties may incur' or words to that effect.  It sounds like someone's grassed her up to me but I don't wanna suggest that idea to her to stress her out further. I can't think of anyone who would but it just seems dodgy to me or is this standard fare from these cunts? Anyway her circumstances haven't changed one iota and she's still as unwell as she was when placed in the support group. Is there a way I can get her out of attending? She's too ill to travel very far anyway and this was made clear in the supporting documents I submitted with her ESA. Can anyone advise? Thanks.



does suggest to me that someone has made a malicious complaint against her. or they haven't met some kind of target to get people off benefits this month. 

how long until the interview?

first suggestion is a direct approach, ask them what their procedure is for cases where the eprson is too ill to attend interviews


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## ericjarvis (Sep 3, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's possible. Something to ponder over, anyway, although frankly I'll be far more physically-uncomfortable if I attend the assessment centre, and I'd like to be able to project that at the "healthcare professional" (whose credentials I will be enquiring after, too!).



If you can put together a reasonable case for a home visit it can't do any harm to ask. The most important thing is don't be alone for the assessment. Have somebody with you. Especially if you can't get a home visit. Recording is all very well, but what seems to be the most crucial factor in getting a fair assessment is having somebody there to witness it.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 7, 2014)

ericjarvis said:


> If you can put together a reasonable case for a home visit it can't do any harm to ask. The most important thing is don't be alone for the assessment. Have somebody with you. Especially if you can't get a home visit. Recording is all very well, but what seems to be the most crucial factor in getting a fair assessment is having somebody there to witness it.


No worries, as the formidable Greebo will be accompanying me!


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## Oracle (Sep 15, 2014)

It's ridiculous that people are even having to go for medicals outside of their relationship with their doctor. When you pay contributions via your pay-packet and then fall sick then you're entitled to be paid-out of the NI scheme because that's what is is INSURANCE!

I'd ask why they want her to go? Freedom of Information Act 2000 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/contents

http://tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=58856


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## equationgirl (Sep 15, 2014)

Oracle said:


> It's ridiculous that people are even having to go for medicals outside of their relationship with their doctor. When you pay contributions via your pay-packet and then fall sick then you're entitled to be paid-out of the NI scheme because that's what is is INSURANCE!
> 
> I'd ask why they want her to go? Freedom of Information Act 2000 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2000/36/contents
> 
> http://tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=74&t=58856


Why they want who to go?

FOIA unlikely to apply as this is about personal data which falls under the Data Protection Act.


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## Greebo (Sep 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> No worries, as the formidable Greebo will be accompanying me!


Who me?  *flutter of virtually non existant eyelashes* I iz harmless I tells yer!


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Who me?  *flutter of virtually non existant eyelashes* I iz harmless I tells yer!



To borrow from Douglas Adams:

*Mostly* harmless.


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## Greebo (Sep 18, 2014)

Update:  No confirmation that tomorrow afternoon's assessment will be recorded (as requested).  The person who's supposed to be responsible for the recordings had knocked off early for the day and might ring back first thing tomorrow morning.


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## Celt (Sep 18, 2014)

I hope things go ok for you both.

They really are a shower of shite arn't they?


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## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Update:  No confirmation that tomorrow afternoon's assessment will be recorded (as requested).  The person who's supposed to be responsible for the recordings had knocked off early for the day and might ring back first thing tomorrow morning.


Best of luck for you and @Violent Panda tomorrow. I'll be hoping it isn't too traumatic.


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## Frances Lengel (Sep 19, 2014)

All the best Greebo  and ViolentPanda 

Hope it goes your way.


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## cesare (Sep 19, 2014)

Good luck, VP and Greebo


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## ash (Sep 19, 2014)

Thinking of you tomorrow


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## yardbird (Sep 19, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Update:  No confirmation that tomorrow afternoon's assessment will be recorded (as requested).  The person who's supposed to be responsible for the recordings had knocked off early for the day and might ring back first thing tomorrow morning.


Ridiculous  
If no recording as requested then you want to get that in writing at the time.
Good luck!

Luck just shouldn't come into it.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2014)

Update to update: Was told to expect a 9.30AM phonecall from ATOS's audio recorder-wallah.
at 10.11AM I started phoning them on the direct-line number I was given yesterday. After 5 attempts I finally got through, and guess what? That's right, they *couldn't* record the assessment today. 
What the (flu-ey) young lady said was that if *she* made me a new appt, it wouldn't affect my benefits (apparently, if "we, the claimants" want to change an appt we get ONE go, ATOS give themselves as many as necessary!), and because it was her as recorder-wallah making the appt for me, rather than ATOS making an appt THEN contacting her to see whether she could fit a recording into her schedule, the recording was a lot more likely to actually happen.
I asked (as usual) for written confirmation, and accepted a new appt for the middle of October.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2014)

double post


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 19, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Update:  No confirmation that tomorrow afternoon's assessment will be recorded (as requested).  The person who's supposed to be responsible for the recordings had knocked off early for the day and might ring back first thing tomorrow morning.


Wishing you and VP all the strength you need to deal with their nonesense. Hope it goes well.


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## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Update to update: Was told to expect a 9.30AM phonecall from ATOS's audio recorder-wallah.
> at 10.11AM I started phoning them on the direct-line number I was given yesterday. After 5 attempts I finally got through, and guess what? That's right, they *couldn't* record the assessment today.
> What the (flu-ey) young lady said was that if *she* made me a new appt, it wouldn't affect my benefits (apparently, if "we, the claimants" want to change an appt we get ONE go, ATOS give themselves as many as necessary!), and because it was her as recorder-wallah making the appt for me, rather than ATOS making an appt THEN contacting her to see whether she could fit a recording into her schedule, the recording was a lot more likely to actually happen.
> I asked (as usual) for written confirmation, and accepted a new appt for the middle of October.


Has anyone ever got a recording first time round without having to check it and rebook it? I'm guessing not given the number of machines that must still be working.


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## scifisam (Sep 19, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Has anyone ever got a recording first time round without having to check it and rebook it? I'm guessing not given the number of machines that must still be working.


I did. Then I forgot to ask for a copy, doh! Probably helped prove that I have memory problems though...


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Has anyone ever got a recording first time round without having to check it and rebook it? I'm guessing not given the number of machines that must still be working.



It came across like ATOS have one person per assessment centre to cover all requests (at the centre and in peoples' homes), and that they have to book the recording equipment from a central store.
In other words, the DWP and the ATOSsers have designed it to be a difficult process in order to scare claimants away from requesting it. Thing is, as scifisam remarked, and as I said to the woman I spoke to, some of us *need* our assessment recorded because we have memory problems.


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## Greebo (Sep 20, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> <snip>Thing is, as scifisam remarked, and as I said to the woman I spoke to, some of us *need* our assessment recorded because we have memory problems.


Given previous firsthand experiences of malpractice (including verbal assault severe enough to also be physical assault) and downright dishonesty during assessments, I trust all healthcare practioners in that situation as far as I can throw them.

In my arrogant opinion, every person getting an ESA assessment should automatically have it recorded, no questions asked; the situation is so stressful that even somebody with a perfect memory would be hard pressed to remember everything said and done if the assessor decides to give a distorted account.


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

I don't come on this thread that often, simply because reading about it makes me upset/scared, etc, when I hear what shit the dwp/atos try to pull on people, but I wish, all of you going through this horrible process have as smooth a time as possible.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 20, 2014)

panpete said:


> I don't come on this thread that often, simply because reading about it makes me upset/scared, etc, when I hear what shit the dwp/atos try to pull on people, but I wish, all of you going through this horrible process have as smooth a time as possible.



Me, I come on this thread exactly *because* reading it makes me upset - it fuels my conviction to not let those bastards trample over me, or over other claimants.


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Me, I come on this thread exactly *because* reading it makes me upset - it fuels my conviction to not let those bastards trample over me, or over other claimants.


Maybe you're a fighter and I am a flee-er 
Having said that, when I was on here last year, I got massive amounts of help, which, together with the CAB, and Benefitsandwork.co.uk, plus the evidence letter writers, all played a part in getting me my ESA.


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

I think that the whole procedure plus the conditions for those on the WRAG and JSA actually help to make people's health deteriorate not improve, like they are trying to worsen people's health. Cynical but that's how it can sometimes seem to me.


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> It came across like ATOS have one person per assessment centre to cover all requests (at the centre and in peoples' homes), and that they have to book the recording equipment from a central store.
> In other words, the DWP and the ATOSsers have designed it to be a difficult process in order to scare claimants away from requesting it. Thing is, as scifisam remarked, and as I said to the woman I spoke to, some of us *need* our assessment recorded because we have memory problems.


I wholehearted agree it's necessary - an essential requirement - but in all of this scifisam is the first person I've heard of actually successfully managing to get their recording made. There was a post a long time ago on this thread about even though there's one machine per centre (and locality) many of them are broken or spend so much time in transit between centres they're not available for recording.

That's why I'm surprised someone's actually managed it.


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

Why don't Atos simply get more machines, so they are avaliable?
they have enough money
It sound to me like they are playing mind games with claimants.


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2014)

panpete said:


> Why don't Atos simply get more machines, so they are avaliable?
> they have enough money
> It sound to me like they are playing mind games with claimants.


Because in my opinion they don't want them to be available. More recordings would likely mean more cases overturned on appeal, although arguably they shouldn't have to be appealed in the first place.


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Because in my opinion they don't want them to be available. More recordings would likely mean more cases overturned on appeal, although arguably they shouldn't have to be appealed in the first place.


Exactly, mind games.
Not playing fair.
Making it difficult for claimants, who already have enough of a difficult time as it is.


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## equationgirl (Sep 20, 2014)

panpete said:


> Exactly, mind games.
> Not playing fair.
> Making it difficult for claimants, who already have enough of a difficult time as it is.


There is no sympathy for claimants and there is certainly no playing fair.


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## tufty79 (Sep 20, 2014)

equationgirl ,mine was recorded without any problems iirc.

Sorry to hear you got messed about, vp and greebo .


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## panpete (Sep 20, 2014)

If I had a medical face to face to look forward to, which I would want recording, the last thing I would want to hear is some multi millionaire organisation bleating on about how there is not enough machines, or they are broken.

I am sorry for all the people who have had to put up with this nonsense when they request that their interview be rcorded.


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## Greebo (Sep 20, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> <snip>Sorry to hear you got messed about, vp and greebo .


*shrug*  You know us, tufty, we don't only get angry, we get even.


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## Satya1 (Sep 22, 2014)

I work with young adult carers, caring for people with all sorts of disabilities and mental health issues.  Some have attended appointments with the people they care for and say they are extremely intimidating.  The appointments are an hour long.  With many conditions they change on a day to day basis so how they can access what someone's capabilities are in an hour is beyond me.  People with mental health issues who are paranoid and delusional are not often honest or even aware how ill they are.  In one case the parent of some one i support had their benefits cut as a result of one of these assessments.  Then due to the resulting stress of having no money and complicated forms to complete ended up in mental health hospital again for a few months.  Hardly a cost saving exercise is it!  I've also heard that their are bonus incentives for atos staff to get people off of benefits, but i can't say for sure that's true.  IMO this system only serves to go after the most vulnerable people in society to save a few pennies.  If you have one of these assessments go in the worse pain you possibly can as ViolentPanda says.  They assess you in the waiting room and your ability to get into the examining room and walk from the chair to the bed.....or so i've heard!


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## panpete (Sep 22, 2014)

Satya1 said:


> I work with young adult carers, caring for people with all sorts of disabilities and mental health issues.  Some have attended appointments with the people they care for and say they are extremely intimidating.  The appointments are an hour long.  With many conditions they change on a day to day basis so how they can access what someone's capabilities are in an hour is beyond me.  People with mental health issues who are paranoid and delusional are not often honest or even aware how ill they are.  In one case the parent of some one i support had their benefits cut as a result of one of these assessments.  Then due to the resulting stress of having no money and complicated forms to complete ended up in mental health hospital again for a few months.  Hardly a cost saving exercise is it!  I've also heard that their are bonus incentives for atos staff to get people off of benefits, but i can't say for sure that's true.  IMO this system only serves to go after the most vulnerable people in society to save a few pennies.  If you have one of these assessments go in the worse pain you possibly can as ViolentPanda says.  They assess you in the waiting room and your ability to get into the examining room and walk from the chair to the bed.....or so i've heard!


Aww wow,  that made for a really depressing read.


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## Satya1 (Sep 22, 2014)

panpete said:


> Aww wow,  that made for a really depressing read.


Yeah sorry!


----------



## Greebo (Sep 22, 2014)

Satya1 said:


> I work with young adult carers, caring for people with all sorts of disabilities and mental health issues.  Some have attended appointments with the people they care for and say they are extremely intimidating.  <snip>If you have one of these assessments go in the worse pain you possibly can as ViolentPanda says.  They assess you in the waiting room and your ability to get into the examining room and walk from the chair to the bed.....or so i've heard!


Tell me about it.  Even before ATOS, it was obvious at IB assessments that the doctor was assessing VP before the official start of the "medical".  So was the receptionist, from what I could see.  For one thing, the attitude towards apparently able-bodied and cheerful people in the waiting room was different to when the doctor saw VP struggle to rise from his chair and blenching with pain.


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## Greebo (Sep 22, 2014)

Satya1 said:


> Yeah sorry!


Better forewarned...


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## panpete (Sep 23, 2014)

Satya1 said:


> Yeah sorry!


It shouldn't be you who's sorry it should be the crack-pot government.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 23, 2014)

Satya1 said:


> I work with young adult carers, caring for people with all sorts of disabilities and mental health issues.  Some have attended appointments with the people they care for and say they are extremely intimidating.  The appointments are an hour long.  With many conditions they change on a day to day basis so how they can access what someone's capabilities are in an hour is beyond me.  People with mental health issues who are paranoid and delusional are not often honest or even aware how ill they are.  In one case the parent of some one i support had their benefits cut as a result of one of these assessments.  Then due to the resulting stress of having no money and complicated forms to complete ended up in mental health hospital again for a few months.  Hardly a cost saving exercise is it!  I've also heard that their are bonus incentives for atos staff to get people off of benefits, but i can't say for sure that's true.  IMO this system only serves to go after the most vulnerable people in society to save a few pennies.  If you have one of these assessments go in the worse pain you possibly can as ViolentPanda says.  They assess you in the waiting room and your ability to get into the examining room and walk from the chair to the bed.....or so i've heard!



All of the Incapacity Benefit medicals I had (administered, if I recall correctly, by doctors working for Schlumberger-Sema, the company that had the contract for doing so at the time), you were very much observed by the reception staff. As I walk with sticks, and take a while to sit on or rise from a chair, I'm absolutely sure I made a "better" impression than those people who had nothing *visibly* wrong with them.


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## tufty79 (Sep 23, 2014)

My first ESA assessment, they commented on me waiting outside cos I'm not good with waiting rooms...


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## Awesome Wells (Sep 23, 2014)

This might be a more apt forum than the vanilla campaign forum.

http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/20...rules-when-threatening-support-group-members/

Not really news to anyone I suppose, despite being against the rules.


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## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2014)

Awesome Wells said:


> This might be a more apt forum than the vanilla campaign forum.
> 
> http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/20...rules-when-threatening-support-group-members/
> 
> Not really news to anyone I suppose, despite being against the rules.


DWP in not following their own guidelines shocker.

Details from this link suggest that the wrong template has been used by the Job Centre:
http://samedifference1.com/2014/09/17/more-details-of-the-shirebrook-jobcentre-situation/

Advice is to take the letter, copies of the relevant DWP manual pages and the FOI request answer on the topic into the job centre at the appointment. It would interesting to know if this is isolated to this particular job centre (someone could have gotten a bit over-zealous, for example) or if other people around the country have experienced similar (which would suggest some kind of systematic policy by the DWP).

Please remember that this thread is primarily used by people looking for support through the process - linking to horror stories, especially if they might be an isolated incident, isn't particularly helpful sometimes.


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## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2014)

tufty79 said:


> My first ESA assessment, they commented on me waiting outside cos I'm not good with waiting rooms...


I get the impression they look to judge claimants on anything and everything, no matter how ridiculous. You waiting outside in the context of your health problems makes perfect sense - had they looked at your file ahead of the appointment they would have seen that.


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 24, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I get the impression they look to judge claimants on anything and everything, no matter how ridiculous. You waiting outside in the context of your health problems makes perfect sense - had they looked at your file ahead of the appointment they would have seen that.


They seem to do that. The assessor was waiting downstairs at recept with the security guard when I accompanied Buscador to her asessment - we had walked about in the street until she was just on time, so that she wouldn't have to wait - assessor was watching us arrive - how we signed in, not getting in the lift, then still made us wait 10 mins in waiting room, which freaks Busc out - she can get PTSD flashbacks in waiting rooms, which was writen in her form, so I think they were just testing her. She was so wound up she had a bit of a break down in the 'medical', which probably helped in the end. 

Thanks to this thread we had been forwarned about traps they set eg. a simple enquiry about smoking roll ups could equal 'has fine dexterity skills' in the report. Busc truthfully answered that she had prerolled them the previous day as she knew she'd be too on edge to roll them and would need to smoke more because of the stress.


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## equationgirl (Sep 24, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> They seem to do that. The assessor was waiting downstairs at recept with the security guard when I accompanied Buscador to her asessment - we had walked about in the street until she was just on time, so that she wouldn't have to wait - assessor was watching us arrive - how we signed in, not getting in the lift, then still made us wait 10 mins in waiting room, which freaks Busc out - she can get PTSD flashbacks in waiting rooms, which was writen in her form, so I think they were just testing her. She was so wound up she had a bit of a break down in the 'medical', which probably helped in the end.
> 
> Thanks to this thread we had been forwarned about traps they set eg. a simple enquiry about smoking roll ups could equal 'has fine dexterity skills' in the report. Busc truthfully answered that she had prerolled them the previous day as she knew she'd be too on edge to roll them and would need to smoke more because of the stress.


I'm glad the thread was helpful, although it does sound like they were deliberately testing her from the minute she got in. It's horrendous that the process was so traumatic for her


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 25, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I'm glad the thread was helpful, although it does sound like they were deliberately testing her from the minute she got in. It's horrendous that the process was so traumatic for her


fortunately it was ok - she is in the support group now.


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

ATOS today, here goes nothing...


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## Quartz (Oct 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> ATOS today, here goes nothing...



((Greebo ))


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> ATOS today, here goes nothing...


(((Greebo)))

Hope it goes well.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2014)

Jus


Greebo said:


> ATOS today, here goes nothing...


Just Seenthis .  wishing you and VP best of luck


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## tufty79 (Oct 15, 2014)

Good luck both of you,  (((vp &  greebo)))


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

We're ba-ack.  I'll leave ViolentPanda to rant, as the boss bloke at the centre was v apologetic and so VP couldn't really swear at him!


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 15, 2014)

Well, that was a pint and a half of full blown shite in every bar!!!
We got there with plenty of time in hand, got the paperwork copied, showed them my proof of identity etc, then sat in their torture-chairs for about 20 minutes until called through to an assessment room.  The bod introduced himself as a physiotherapist (great! Physios know so much about the effects of hypertension, type 2 diabetes and deafness!  ), and I asked (just to check, as I didn't see the recording equipment) "this is being recorded, isn't it?". Guess what? That's right, there had been a communication problem, and even though I'd spoken to the person in charge of recordings for the entire region, somehow the info hadn't been actioned, and there was no equipment or operator available! Couldn't have a go at the staff, because it wasn't their cock-up, it was the fault of their regional centre at Wembley. Excuses about shoddy corrupt databases were made (believable, given the shite patchwork of IT kit Atos use), apologies offered, and a new appt with recording eqpt and operator present was promised. 
I'll believe it when I see it!


----------



## yardbird (Oct 15, 2014)

I hear the bollocks about an "operator" again grrr.
They don't need a fucking operator and the "equipment" is a piece of piss to work.
For most punters it's a manoeuvre just so as NOT to record the assessment.


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

This is how annoyed VP is - too far gone to even swear properly.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, that was a pint and a half of full blown shite in every bar!!!
> We got there with plenty of time in hand, got the paperwork copied, showed them my proof of identity etc, then sat in their torture-chairs for about 20 minutes until called through to an assessment room.  The bod introduced himself as a physiotherapist (great! Physios know so much about the effects of hypertension, type 2 diabetes and deafness!  ), and I asked (just to check, as I didn't see the recording equipment) "this is being recorded, isn't it?". Guess what? That's right, there had been a communication problem, and even though I'd spoken to the person in charge of recordings for the entire region, somehow the info hadn't been actioned, and there was no equipment or operator available! Couldn't have a go at the staff, because it wasn't their cock-up, it was the fault of their regional centre at Wembley. Excuses about shoddy corrupt databases were made (believable, given the shite patchwork of IT kit Atos use), apologies offered, and a new appt with recording eqpt and operator present was promised.
> I'll believe it when I see it!


Ffs


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Well, that was a pint and a half of full blown shite in every bar!!!
> We got there with plenty of time in hand, got the paperwork copied, showed them my proof of identity etc, then sat in their torture-chairs for about 20 minutes until called through to an assessment room.  The bod introduced himself as a physiotherapist (great! Physios know so much about the effects of hypertension, type 2 diabetes and deafness!  ), and I asked (just to check, as I didn't see the recording equipment) "this is being recorded, isn't it?". Guess what? That's right, there had been a communication problem, and even though I'd spoken to the person in charge of recordings for the entire region, somehow the info hadn't been actioned, and there was no equipment or operator available! Couldn't have a go at the staff, because it wasn't their cock-up, it was the fault of their regional centre at Wembley. Excuses about shoddy corrupt databases were made (believable, given the shite patchwork of IT kit Atos use), apologies offered, and a new appt with recording eqpt and operator present was promised.
> I'll believe it when I see it!





Greebo said:


> This is how annoyed VP is - too far gone to even swear properly.



I take it that means the assessment wasn't carried out?


----------



## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I take it that means the assessment wasn't carried out?


Correct - postponed until er they can find their arses with both hands, a map, a torch, and two mirrors!  

Boss bloke said he 'd try to set it early afternoon again though - small mercies.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Correct - pootponed until er they can find theire arses with both hands, a map, a torch, and two mirrors!
> 
> Boss bloke said he 'd try to set it early afternoon again though - small mercies.



Surprised they didn't threaten you with withdrawal of funds for not being cooperative (or something along those lines)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Correct - pootponed until er they can find their arses with both hands, a map, a torch, and two mirrors!
> 
> Boss bloke said he 'd try to set it early afternoon again though - small mercies.



Maybe they were using GPS.  It's not very reliable


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Surprised they didn't threaten you with withdrawal of funds for not being cooperative (or something along those lines)


Can't  - papertrail proved it'd been formally requested, and I emphasised VP's bad memory, and got pad & pen out.


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## Quartz (Oct 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Can't  - papertrail proved it'd been formally requested, and I emphasised VP's bad memory, and got pad & pen out.



A document a day keeps ATOS at bay?


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

Quartz said:


> A document a day keeps ATOS at bay?


Yep  - be prepared to beat them at their own game, at least when it comes to paperwork.

No need to lie or square up to 'em -  just be firm, quiet, and politely sure of what you'll tolerate.


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## Libertad (Oct 15, 2014)

What a fuckabout though, all that wasted energy. (((VP and Greebs)))


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 15, 2014)

Libertad said:


> What a fuckabout though, all that wasted energy. (((VP and Greebs)))



and how many are going through this same shit every day.  They probably do it on purpose in the hope that you'll say that now you're here, you may as well get it over with and people will skip the recording


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## Greebo (Oct 15, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and how many are going through this same shit every day.  They probably do it on purpose in the hope that you'll say that now you're here, you may as well get it over with and people will skip the recording


Which is why it's worth the rest of us remembering the ones who do get fucked over and standing our ground when we can.  Even when exhausted, in pain, or just plain fed up and worn down!


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## Celyn (Oct 16, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...
> I'll believe it when I see it!



Quite!  All that terrible hassle for nothing.


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## Celyn (Oct 16, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Can't  - papertrail proved it'd been formally requested, and I emphasised VP's bad memory, and got pad & pen out.



Oh, that is good, at least.


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## Greebo (Oct 16, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Quite!  All that terrible hassle for nothing.


It's fine, we're totally cool with this, although seething a bit.  The deeper into winter it finally takes place, the better.


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## Celyn (Oct 16, 2014)

OK, I suppose, but it is still a *very* bad way to treat people.  

Well, I hope the next appointment goes better.


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## Greebo (Oct 16, 2014)

Celyn said:


> OK, I suppose, but it is still a *very* bad way to treat people.   <snip>


Agreed.  There's so much I could have done yesterday instead, particularly with that bloody appointment being halfway through the day, therefore trashing both my morning and afternoon!  


Celyn said:


> Well, I hope the next appointment goes better.


Thanks.


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## WouldBe (Oct 16, 2014)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> and how many are going through this same shit every day.  They probably do it on purpose in the hope that *you'll say that now you're here, you may as well get it over with* and people will skip the recording



I said that and secretly recorded it.


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## Greebo (Oct 16, 2014)

WouldBe said:


> I said that and secretly recorded it.


I is far too honest and upright to even think of covertly recording anything!

Not that I'd admit to it anyway..


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## yardbird (Oct 16, 2014)

Covertly record from the start.
From when you walk in the door. Reception on wards.


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## laptop (Oct 16, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Covertly record from the start.
> From when you walk in the door. Reception on wards.



With, as I recommended months ago, someone furiously taking notes as watertight cover-up for why you have a transcript


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## Greebo (Oct 16, 2014)

Whether VP had a recording device is entirely his own business - he might have forgotten to remove the one used at home from his pockets...

Even as his carer, I wouldn't dream of violating his privacy by rifling through his pockets.


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## tufty79 (Oct 16, 2014)

yardbird said:


> I hear the bollocks about an "operator" again grrr.
> They don't need a fucking operator and the "equipment" is a piece of piss to work.
> For most punters it's a manoeuvre just so as NOT to record the assessment.


Yup. My last one was ATOS-recorded,  with no operator other than the assessor.


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## equationgirl (Oct 17, 2014)

Sorry to hear you had a wasted trip Greebo and ViolentPanda - hope it hasn't caused too much exhaustion and pain.


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## Greebo (Oct 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> <snip> hope it hasn't caused too much exhaustion and pain.


Thanks.  If VP's got enough energy to read and post on urban, it's just about bearable.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 17, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry to hear you had a wasted trip Greebo and ViolentPanda - hope it hasn't caused too much exhaustion and pain.



Thanks. There's a fair bit of pain, but I was expecting that and that I'd feel as wrung-out as a dishcloth for days afterward. As Greebo says, if I have enough energy to read, and to post here, the pain etc is tolerable, and my _mien_ is "just about bearable", apparently.


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## dynamicbaddog (Oct 24, 2014)

I had my ATOS medical in Balham yesturday. I had it recorded and  took a friend with me. I had to convince them that even though I am now a full time student I still have limited capacity for work as university is very different to a workplace and I am only able to be attend uni due to the support I get from the disability team . I was very nervous but I think I got all my points across. The woman doing the interview was typing quite a lot as I was speaking, she seemed sympathetic and  I didn't get the impression that she was trying to catch me out or anything. As supporting evidence I took along a letter from the Disability team at uni which explains all the concessions I get (10 minutes restbreaks every hour etc) I tried to get a letter from my GP  (whom I've been seeing for 20 years)but he was useless, he said writing a letter was outside his remit and he would have to charge me for doing it and that he probably wouldn't be able to write it in time for the assessment anyway. I asked him if the DWP had been in contact with him about my case, he looked in my file and said they had written to him in June, but the reply was submitted by another GP at the surgery whom I've never seen before. 
After the interview was over and she switched off the machine she asked me if I was O.K and said she hoped it hadn't been too traumatic for me. I was trying to get her to tell me if I had got enough points  or not but all she said was that she would pass my information on to the decision maker and I would know in a few weeks. However she did say that I would probably have to attend further medicals later on to see if my condition has improved or deteriorated which maybe a sign that they are not planning to chuck me off ESA just yet. Nothing I can do know expect wait for the letter from the decision maker and in the meantime try to fret too much too much about it....


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## equationgirl (Oct 24, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I had my ATOS medical in Balham yesturday. I had it recorded and  took a friend with me. I had to convince them that even though I am now a full time student I still have limited capacity for work as university is very different to a workplace and I am only able to be attend uni due to the support I get from the disability team . I was very nervous but I think I got all my points across. The woman doing the interview was typing quite a lot as I was speaking, she seemed sympathetic and  I didn't get the impression that she was trying to catch me out or anything. As supporting evidence I took along a letter from the Disability team at uni which explains all the concessions I get (10 minutes restbreaks every hour etc) I tried to get a letter from my GP  (whom I've been seeing for 20 years)but he was useless, he said writing a letter was outside his remit and he would have to charge me for doing it and that he probably wouldn't be able to write it in time for the assessment anyway. I asked him if the DWP had been in contact with him about my case, he looked in my file and said they had written to him in June, but the reply was submitted by another GP at the surgery whom I've never seen before.
> After the interview was over and she switched off the machine she asked me if I was O.K and said she hoped it hadn't been too traumatic for me. I was trying to get her to tell me if I had got enough points  or not but all she said was that she would pass my information on to the decision maker and I would know in a few weeks. However she did say that I would probably have to attend further medicals later on to see if my condition has improved or deteriorated which maybe a sign that they are not planning to chuck me off ESA just yet. Nothing I can do know expect wait for the letter from the decision maker and in the meantime try to fret too much too much about it....


Glad it wasn't too bad, but sorry your GP didn't do their job. It would be worth getting a copy of the letter submitted to the DWP anyway for your own records, but I think it's interesting that someone submitted something to them and you're only finding out now.


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## laptop (Nov 8, 2014)

18 months to clear the backlog, says Maximus: http://www.theguardian.com/society/...sessment-backlog-maximus-health-services-atos


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## equationgirl (Nov 8, 2014)

laptop said:


> 18 months to clear the backlog, says Maximus: http://www.theguardian.com/society/...sessment-backlog-maximus-health-services-atos


I think it will realistically be more than that.


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## Celyn (Nov 9, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I think it will realistically be more than that.



Does that mean, do you suppose, that those of us who were due re-assessment in late Jan/early Feb will still be in this backlog, or that they will have this group first in their targets?


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## superfly101 (Nov 9, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Does that mean, do you suppose, that those of us who were due re-assessment in late Jan/early Feb will still be in this backlog, or that they will have this group first in their targets?


It doesn't really mean anything.

What happens next will be dictated by DWP policy which will evolve as they see fit to suit how they want to manipulate the figures they give out.

What we have at present is regional differences in work load; so in some areas it's business as usual, in others they will be prioritising certain claimant groups based on work loads/DWP policy, these priorities will be completely different from one area to the next and can change at any time.

Even if your in an area where there's a huge backlog and your group is not being prioritised you can still get caught by a random selection for quality auditing.

In short stop worrying about it and expect & prepare for re-assessment to happen around the time originally stated. If you're lucky, you're lucky so treat it as a bonus,  if not you haven't lost anything as it was scheduled to happen anyway.


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## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2014)

Celyn said:


> Does that mean, do you suppose, that those of us who were due re-assessment in late Jan/early Feb will still be in this backlog, or that they will have this group first in their targets?


This is just my personal feelings but I don't think you'll be the first group to get re-assessed. There's been a lot of other people waiting for reassessment for longer, so I think they would tackle those that have been waiting the longest first.


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## Celyn (Nov 9, 2014)

I'll try to file it under "don't panic yet" then.


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## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2014)

Celyn said:


> I'll try to file it under "don't panic yet" then.


I know that's a hard thing to do, but if you can, try to do it.

It makes me very angry that people are made to feel like this when they are in a vulnerable place and aren't able to fight their corner. This is why NI is paid after all.


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## andysays (Nov 11, 2014)

I've been claiming ESA since September of last year and I've finally had a letter from ATOS calling me in for an "assessment with a healthcare professional" in early December.

Once I've read the info sheet, I may be back with some questions...


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## andysays (Nov 11, 2014)

I've been claiming ESA since September of last year and apart from filling in an initial claim form way back then, the only evidence which I have submitted has been regular medical certificates from my GP. I've finally had a letter from ATOS calling me in for an "assessment with a healthcare professional" in early December and I've got a couple of questions I hope people can help me with.

First, am I right that this assessment is to decide if I will still continue to get ESA and if so whether I get put in the Support or Work Related Activity Group?

And second, it mentions the option of bringing medical reports from doctor, consultant or support worker. I don't have either a consultant or support worker, the closest I have to anything like this is a letter from a Clinical Psychologist relating to my recent assessment for therapy with the Complex Care Team. Although it isn't directly related to whether I can work or not, it does mention some of the issues I had with relating to people when I was last working and ongoing problems in that area. Is this likely to be considered admissible/useful?


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## tufty79 (Nov 11, 2014)

Yes and yes (wrt the second part, *anything* relevant you can take in is useful)

Is your gp up to speed with what's going on with you? Worth asking if they can also provide info as to how your illness is affecting your day to dayness/ability to work..


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## equationgirl (Nov 11, 2014)

andysays the more information you can provide the better - letters from your GP, consultant etc can be very useful. Make copies, lots of copies, as they will be invaluable at reassessment time. I think your letter about personal interaction issues could be very pertinent.


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

tufty79 equationgirl

Thanks for that.

I wouldn't necessarily have thought getting a letter from my GP would be necessary/helpful - she doesn't have a detailed picture of what's going on with me, only gets an impression from seeing me for 5 minutes or so each month saying "I don't really feel ready to think about going back to work yet", but maybe that would be useful. She does also have my entire (long and extensive) medical history to draw on, I suppose.

Two further questions
I'm likely to have to pay for getting her to write a letter, aren't I?
What else do they base the decision on, apart from my year old original application? Is there a standard list of questions they ask, and if so does anyone know how I can get hold of one so I can think about how I should answer them? (it's almost like preparing for a job interview, isn't it  )

And an entirely unrelated issue: I'm not getting alerts saying I've been tagged for some reason, as if I didn't have enough to contend with


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## Greebo (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> <snip> I wouldn't necessarily have thought getting a letter from my GP would be necessary/helpful - she doesn't have a detailed picture of what's going on with me, only gets an impression from seeing me for 5 minutes or so each month saying "I don't really feel ready to think about going back to work yet", but maybe that would be useful. She does also have my entire (long and extensive) medical history to draw on, I suppose.
> 
> Two further questions
> I'm likely to have to pay for getting her to write a letter, aren't I?
> What else do they base the decision on, apart from my year old original application? Is there a standard list of questions they ask, and if so does anyone know how I can get hold of one so I can think about how I should answer them? (it's almost like preparing for a job interview, isn't it  )


ViolentPanda


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> tufty79 equationgirl
> 
> Thanks for that.
> 
> I wouldn't necessarily have thought getting a letter from my GP would be necessary/helpful - she doesn't have a detailed picture of what's going on with me, only gets an impression from seeing me for 5 minutes or so each month saying "I don't really feel ready to think about going back to work yet", but maybe that would be useful. She does also have my entire (long and extensive) medical history to draw on, I suppose.



And them having your medical history is quite important. It establishes that you're not inventing medical complaints, that you've actually attended the surgery in order to get those complaints treated.
Of course, it now appears that the ATOSsers etc don't regard you as having tried hard enough if you don't get yourself referred to a consultant for every little cough and sneeze. 



> Two further questions
> I'm likely to have to pay for getting her to write a letter, aren't I?



Yes. Some doctors will do it for nowt, but they're few and far between, especially since the DWP started insisting in a letter from your GP/sending GPs a form to fill in regarding patients claiming ESA. At my surgery a 1-page letter costs £15, a multi-pager up to £45. Your surgery may vary, but those appear to be charge levels "recommended" by the RCGP.



> What else do they base the decision on, apart from my year old original application? Is there a standard list of questions they ask, and if so does anyone know how I can get hold of one so I can think about how I should answer them? (it's almost like preparing for a job interview, isn't it  )



They're filling in "boxes" on their LIMA software, so yeah, they have "standard questions". IIRC equationgirl once linked to a "user manual" for the LIMA software that the so-called "healthcare professionals" use.


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## toggle (Nov 12, 2014)

as vp says, depends on the doctor. i asked mine if she wanted payment for the letter she provided for university and she informed me she had absolutely no idea how to charge me and couldn't be bothered to find out. 


the more info the better. any correspondance that discusses your condition. whether it's a summary of your description of symptoms or a confirmantion of diagnosis, discussion of medication or schedule for treatment. 

if you're on medication, then also report the side effects and how they affect you. 

I'll be honest, most of this will make bugger all difference if you get assessed by the standard atos drone. but gathering them together now will allow you to prove you did give the asessor all the available information when you go to appeal. 

if you have a condition that isn't 'tick box' somethign with complex effects, variable effects then keep a written record. himself has a big book of loopy where we write down stuff like the time he tried to incinerate us. like the times he goes out and leaves the back door wide open. like the time he forgot to eat for 24 hours and decided to work himself up into a state and dump me because his procrastination was translated into me stopping him doing stuff. it really does help if you give the appeal as much info as possible. and a record made over time is a more valuable document than you scrawling out stuff from memory 3 days bfore they need the paperwork/


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> And them having your medical history is quite important. It establishes that you're not inventing medical complaints, that you've actually attended the surgery in order to get those complaints treated.
> Of course, it now appears that the ATOSsers etc don't regard you as having tried hard enough if you don't get yourself referred to a consultant for every little cough and sneeze.
> 
> Yes. Some doctors will do it for nowt, but they're few and far between, especially since the DWP started insisting in a letter from your GP/sending GPs a form to fill in regarding patients claiming ESA. At my surgery a 1-page letter costs £15, a multi-pager up to £45. Your surgery may vary, but those appear to be charge levels "recommended" by the RCGP.
> ...



Thanks, that's a useful way of approaching it. I'll make an appointment to discuss this with my GP ASAP and see if I can get her to write some sort of summary of my medical history as it relates to this. Even if I have to pay for this, sounds like it will be money well spent.

And I would be very interested in finding out more about these LIMA software questions if equationgirl or anyone else knows more about them - I find it much easier to prepare for this sort of thing beforehand than do it off the cuff.


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

toggle said:


> as vp says, depends on the doctor. i asked mine if she wanted payment for the letter she provided for university and she informed me she had absolutely no idea how to charge me and couldn't be bothered to find out.
> 
> the more info the better. any correspondance that discusses your condition. whether it's a summary of your description of symptoms or a confirmantion of diagnosis, discussion of medication or schedule for treatment.
> 
> ...



All of this is very helpful too, I'm just wondering how best to present that sort of info to them. It doesn't necessarily come up as answers to their generic questions, so combination of medical records and my own "diary" sounds like the way to go.

And the bit I've highlighted sounds very familiar to me, situations where I've interpreted the behaviour of others as demonstrating they have particular negative intentions towards me, then reacting on that basis and causing myself and them all sorts of trouble and pain. I've probably done similar shit on here, TBH - maybe I should scour my posts for examples to include 

Anyway, time to make another appointment to see the GP


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

Googling "ATOS LIMA" has led me to this site, which includes a copy of an ESA85 Medical Report Form 

Lots of useful info for me, and hopefully for others.

There is also stuff about the technical aspects of the LIMA software, though I'm not sure that's directly relevant, but it does demonstrate how the whole process of assessment seems to be geared towards disregarding info which isn't "correctly" presented or entered into the software, and therefore making it less likely that all aspects of someone's condition are properly taken into account. No surprises there then


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## dynamicbaddog (Nov 12, 2014)

It's been a fraught few weeks since my medical. Everyday  waiting anxiously for that letter to come. Been so out of mind with worry that I have been unable to focus properly on my uni work and have  fallen behind with my reading and attendance. However today the letter came and I have passed and will be moved onto ESA (I've been put in the work group)I was literally crying with relief earlier.  Such a heavy weight off my mind, I was dreading having to go through all that appeals process.
My advice to anyone facing a medical would be to always insist on it being recorded and take the main person who helps with your care needs with you so that they can emphasis your case.


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> It's been a fraught few weeks since my medical. Everyday  waiting anxiously for that letter to come. Been so out of mind with worry that I have been unable to focus properly on my uni work and have  fallen behind with my reading and attendance. However today the letter came and I have passed and will be moved onto ESA (I've been put in the work group)I was literally crying with relief earlier.  Such a heavy weight off my mind, I was dreading having to go through all that appeals process.
> My advice to anyone facing a medical would be to always insist on it being recorded and take the main person who helps with your care needs with you so that they can emphasis your case.



Glad to hear you've had good news.

After further rummaging around, I've come up with this, a detailed summary of the "assessment of whether an applicant has limited capability for work", including a breakdown of how points should be awarded. This means I now know what I need to demonstrate to make my case.


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## Roadkill (Nov 12, 2014)

dynamicbaddog said:


> It's been a fraught few weeks since my medical. Everyday  waiting anxiously for that letter to come. Been so out of mind with worry that I have been unable to focus properly on my uni work and have  fallen behind with my reading and attendance. However today the letter came and I have passed and will be moved onto ESA (I've been put in the work group)I was literally crying with relief earlier.  Such a heavy weight off my mind, I was dreading having to go through all that appeals process.
> My advice to anyone facing a medical would be to always insist on it being recorded and take the main person who helps with your care needs with you so that they can emphasis your case.



Glad to hear that mate.


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## equationgirl (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> Thanks, that's a useful way of approaching it. I'll make an appointment to discuss this with my GP ASAP and see if I can get her to write some sort of summary of my medical history as it relates to this. Even if I have to pay for this, sounds like it will be money well spent.
> 
> And I would be very interested in finding out more about these LIMA software questions if equationgirl or anyone else knows more about them - I find it much easier to prepare for this sort of thing beforehand than do it off the cuff.


You rang? 

Yes, I looked into the LIMA software earlier in this thread. It's basically a series of questions with drop-down menus for the answers. When the questionnaire is complete, the LIMA software generates a standardised report based on the answers. Note - and this is important - if you supply supplementary or explanatory information to any of the questions, the answers will be entered by the assessor in a text box BUT THIS INFORMATION IS NOT USED IN THE STANDARDISED REPORT.  The report uses an algorithm to piece the answers given through the dropdown boxes so you get nonsense sentences such as 'The claimant has mild upper limb amputation'.

You can download a copy here:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/requ...A Review Exam Application Technical Guide.pdf

This is the manual the HCP is supposed to use to complete the assessment:
http://www.*dwp*.gov.uk/docs/*wca*-handbook.pdf

This is the manual the DWP decisionmaker is supposed to use:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/dmgch42.pdf

Here are the descriptors:
http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/*m*-*06*-*11*.pdf

Be warned, the descriptors are not perfect and do focus mainly on physical health problems. This has been raised as an issue by several mental health charities and action groups such as MIND.

I am happy to answer any questions you have on the software 

Hope this post helps. The original posts I made on the software can be found on page 5 of this thread.


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## andysays (Nov 12, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> You rang?  ...



Thanks for all of that. I'll have a browse and let you know if I have any questions.


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## equationgirl (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> Thanks for all of that. I'll have a browse and let you know if I have any questions.


You're more than welcome, I'm happy to help 

Forearmed is forewarned and all that.


----------



## toggle (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays said:


> All of this is very helpful too, I'm just wondering how best to present that sort of info to them. It doesn't necessarily come up as answers to their generic questions, so combination of medical records and my own "diary" sounds like the way to go.
> 
> And the bit I've highlighted sounds very familiar to me, situations where I've interpreted the behaviour of others as demonstrating they have particular negative intentions towards me, then reacting on that basis and causing myself and them all sorts of trouble and pain. I've probably done similar shit on here, TBH - maybe I should scour my posts for examples to include
> 
> Anyway, time to make another appointment to see the GP



you're better with in person examples. unless you're in a position where you're saying you mainly interact with people online because you do silly shit. and you even do silly shit there.

and even if the assessment dosen't include anything, then you will have a better chance to present the actual problems and effects rather than the bits of it their system tells them to ask at appeal.

and not assuming you will definately have to go that far, but it is always a good idea to be prepared for it to do so. treat a success at assessment is an early win in the whole process


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 12, 2014)

andysays is anyone going with you to the assessment?


----------



## andysays (Nov 13, 2014)

toggle said:


> you're better with in person examples. unless you're in a position where you're saying you mainly interact with people online because you do silly shit. and you even do silly shit there.
> 
> and even if the assessment dosen't include anything, then you will have a better chance to present the actual problems and effects rather than the bits of it their system tells them to ask at appeal.
> 
> and not assuming you will definately have to go that far, but it is always a good idea to be prepared for it to do so. treat a success at assessment is an early win in the whole process



That last bit was just some throw away silliness, but your advice as always is sensible and worth finding a way of implementing.


----------



## andysays (Nov 13, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> andysays is anyone going with you to the assessment?



No, I don't really have anyone to ask to go with me. Is that an issue?


----------



## toggle (Nov 13, 2014)

andysays said:


> No, I don't really have anyone to ask to go with me. Is that an issue?



ti's not a necessity, but can be useful


----------



## toggle (Nov 13, 2014)

andysays said:


> That last bit was just some throw away silliness, but your advice as always is sensible and worth finding a way of implementing.



i have recomended to one person they look at their posting history to dig up examples of stuff they get anxious about and can't decide what to do on their own.


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2014)

andysays said:


> No, I don't really have anyone to ask to go with me. Is that an issue?


It really shouldn't be, but it can lend your case strength if someone goes with you and takes notes. It has been shown anecdotally to make some assessors behave better, and also provides a contemporary record of the assessment if you need to appeal.

It is your right as a claimant to request recording of your assessment however this normally has to be confirmed and reconfirmed and there have been reports that even after all this the machine is not available at the centre on the actual day. Certainly if you have any kind of concentration or memory issue you might want to look into back-up recording devices such as your mobile phone. Many have a recording function (test it before your appointment obviously).


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2014)

toggle said:


> i have recomended to one person they look at their posting history to dig up examples of stuff they get anxious about and can't decide what to do on their own.


Also useful as they are time and date-stamped, and harder to argue against.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Nov 19, 2014)

DWP worker's union is protesting about being pressured to actually go against the official guidance and hassle people more than is allowed, see in particular *ESA claimants and the “Hassle Factor” *section and number 10 in the list of things they want sorting.

http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...news.cfm/central-england-work-services-update


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 20, 2014)

Sapphireblue said:


> DWP worker's union is protesting about being pressured to actually go against the official guidance and hassle people more than is allowed, see in particular *ESA claimants and the “Hassle Factor” *section and number 10 in the list of things they want sorting.
> 
> http://www.pcs.org.uk/en/department...news.cfm/central-england-work-services-update


That is very interesting to know, thanks for posting the link.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Nov 21, 2014)

i sort of know someone in the union and as soon as she posted the link somewhere else i thought 'i know where to repost that'!

it's long been suspected that DWP staff are being encouraged or even threatened into treating their customers worse and this seems to back that up.


----------



## Greebo (Nov 26, 2014)

Update:  VP's rescheduled ATOS assessment will be 15th December (just in time for Saturnalia ).   After reading the letter he hit the phone (as suggested by the bloke in charge last time) just to remind them that it needs to be recorded.

At which point it transpired that the individual centres are not issued with a list of who to record until the week before, at the earliest.  So please call back then.  

Of course, should it happen to slip somebody's bureaucratic excuse of a mind _again_, it'll just be a case of pointing out that the assessment is unfair and invalid unless recorded, and then insisting on it being rescheduled.  _Again.  _

I ain't fussed,  it's not as if VP's got less than a year to live.  We can easily play a longer game than ATOS, if that's what it takes.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 26, 2014)

((ViolentPanda and Greebo))


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## equationgirl (Nov 26, 2014)

ffs Greebo and ViolentPanda what an utter hoop-jumping palaver this all is.

It's a shame there aren't targets to be met for recordings, with associated financial penalties if they aren't met (to be paid as compensation to the claimant, obviously). Money seems to be the only thing that focuses their minds in any way.


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## Greebo (Dec 15, 2014)

Okay, VP rang the assessment centre first thing this morning.  They claimed to have booked a recording for this afternoon's appointment, but we shall see.


----------



## Libertad (Dec 15, 2014)

Best of luck and all that Greebo and ViolentPanda


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## cesare (Dec 15, 2014)

Good luck ViolentPanda and Greebo


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## tufty79 (Dec 15, 2014)

Paws crossed for both pf you x


----------



## scifisam (Dec 15, 2014)

Good luck VP and Greebo!


----------



## buscador (Dec 15, 2014)

Best of luck Greebo and ViolentPanda. Not that luck should play any part in this, of course. Fingers crossed you get the right result.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 15, 2014)

You know this state of the art digital recording equipment allegedly used?  It was a twin cassette recorder!  

I have no idea how much "special training" it takes to simultaneously press "record" for both tapes!  Maybe, erm, 10 minutes?


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 15, 2014)

Oh ffs
 but 
Glad it eventually happened though.


----------



## buscador (Dec 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You know this state of the art digital recording equipment allegedly used?  It was a twin cassette recorder!
> 
> I have no idea how much "special training" it takes to simultaneously press "record" for both tapes!  Maybe, erm, 10 minutes?



Probably needs special training because most people would not know what a cassette recorder is! Perhaps they couldn't get hold of any wax discs.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2014)

Thanks for the good wishes, folks! 
Spent about 50 minutes in all with the HCP (she didn't tell us what sort of "healthcare professional" she was), and it took a lot of willpower on my part to not say "blimey, I haven't seen one of those since the last time I was in a police interview room!" when I saw the double tape deck (which was *identical* to the ones coppers used to use)!
The HCP was a bit stunned at the volume of medications, and by my descriptions of my problems. She was typing away into her LIMA software at ten to the dozen,not that *that* means anything with regard to the LIMA report that will be produced. Took along a load of medical evidence, plus copies of the insert of all the meds I take. We did our best, so now it's just a case of waiting for a decision (they didn't say how long that would take).


----------



## Libertad (Dec 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> You know this state of the art digital recording equipment allegedly used?  It was a twin cassette recorder!
> 
> I have no idea how much "special training" it takes to simultaneously press "record" for both tapes!  Maybe, erm, 10 minutes?



Very difficult to get hold of one of them what with their scarcity and everything. 

Glad that you've got that over and done with though.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 15, 2014)

ViolentPanda said:


> Thanks for the good wishes, folks!
> Spent about 50 minutes in all with the HCP (she didn't tell us what sort of "healthcare professional" she was), and it took a lot of willpower on my part to not say "blimey, I haven't seen one of those since the last time I was in a police interview room!" when I saw the double tape deck (which was *identical* to the ones coppers used to use)!
> The HCP was a bit stunned at the volume of medications, and by my descriptions of my problems. She was typing away into her LIMA software at ten to the dozen,not that *that* means anything with regard to the LIMA report that will be produced. Took along a load of medical evidence, plus copies of the insert of all the meds I take. We did our best, so now it's just a case of waiting for a decision (they didn't say how long that would take).


 Best wishes x


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## Greebo (Dec 15, 2014)

At one point she tried to end the assessment saying that she'd got enough information, but I told her that she hadn't covered VP's hearing loss on one side (which limits ability to work in less than silent conditions or where lipreading is difficult), nor his migraines and ice pick migraines, which make it dangerous to drive or operate machinery. No test of grip or balance either.  

Did explain that a normal 3 session course of minor dental treatment which might reasonably be fitted into one week would take about 6 weeks for VP as he'd need to recover between each appointment.


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## StoneRoad (Dec 15, 2014)

After all that effort, I hope you pair get the right result for you ! ViolentPanda and Greebo


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## equationgirl (Dec 15, 2014)

Glad it went ok, hopefully they'll see sense and the DWP will not meddle with your benefits at all. All hope that you're both not too wiped out by all this.

I wonder if the police sold a load of old cassette recorders onto the DWP? Or perhaps someone went skipdiving on behalf on the assessment centres...


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 15, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> Glad it went ok, hopefully they'll see sense and the DWP will not meddle with your benefits at all. All hope that you're both not too wiped out by all this.
> 
> I wonder if the police sold a load of old cassette recorders onto the DWP? Or perhaps someone went skipdiving on behalf on the assessment centres...



The tape decks had *exactly* the same tamper-evident seals on the cases as the copshop ones used to, so I wouldn't put it beyond ATOS to have gone skip-diving, or to have bought a job lot for pennies at an auction #cashinthedungeons.


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## cesare (Dec 15, 2014)

Fingers crossed for a decent result, and glad you've got it out of the way before the festivities. Hope it doesn't take too long to recover - sounds a bit arduous.


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## Greebo (Dec 15, 2014)

Actual picture from the net of something uncannily like the incredibly scarce state of the art audio recording device


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## Quartz (Dec 15, 2014)

Greebo said:


> At one point she tried to end the assessment saying that she'd got enough information, but I told her that she hadn't covered ...



Well done! I hope you follow that up with a formal complaint as to the assessor's lack of competence. Apart from being an actual complaint, it will give you yet another opportunity to restate VP's problems.


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## Libertad (Dec 15, 2014)

"State of the art"


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## kittyP (Dec 15, 2014)

That is ridiculous about the recording device! 

I hope you are both OK this evening and that a good result is coming your way xx


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## Greebo (Dec 15, 2014)

Quartz said:


> Well done! I hope you follow that up with a formal complaint as to the assessor's lack of competence.  <snip>


When you say "lack of competence" the HCP didn't at any point say what her medical competence was.


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## chainsawjob (Dec 16, 2014)

Glad it finally happened, with recording (what a joke, those machines, most people won't have any way of playing them), and hope you get the right result without further hassle.  Good it was out of the way before Christmas.


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## Greebo (Dec 16, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> Glad it finally happened, with recording (what a joke, those machines, most people won't have any way of playing them), and hope you get the right result without further hassle.  <snip>


Gosh, I do hope that you're not suggesting that recording in a more or less obsolete format _was at all deliberate_.    I can see why you might think that, but couldn't possibly comment.

Thanks for the good wishes.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2014)

kittyP said:


> That is ridiculous about the recording device!



The only bonus is that at least it was hooked up to a decent mic - a PZM or "pressure zone mic", for those "in the know" - which is the best type for "recording in an office/room" situations.



> I hope you are both OK this evening and that a good result is coming your way xx



Thanks!

As I remarked at the time of the (aborted) October appointment, the chairs were like torture devices. They have decent lumbar support, but the rest of your back suffers for it. By the time we got home my back was spasming bad enough to require a couple of valiums to stop the muscles expressing their annoyance through the medium of interpretive dance!


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 16, 2014)

chainsawjob said:


> Glad it finally happened, with recording (what a joke, those machines, most people won't have any way of playing them), and hope you get the right result without further hassle.  Good it was out of the way before Christmas.



Fortunately for me, being an old fart who still has a fairly large collection of audio tapes, I not only have ways to play them, I also know how to digitise them.


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## equationgirl (Dec 17, 2014)

State of the art in 1989 by the looks of things - it would be funny if they weren't messing with people's lives so much.

Anyway ViolentPanda and Greebo I'm just glad it's out of the way and you can focus on other things x


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## Greebo (Jan 10, 2015)

The result arrived today - support group.  ViolentPanda will give you the full details.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

A dreaded brown envelope fell through the door this morning, and it was pretty obvious it would be the result of my WCA, as it was a thick thick brown envelope. I gulped (to shift my heart out of my throat and back into my chest), and opened it straight away: "Dear Mr *****, blah blah blah blah blah...." - the blahs carried on for eight paragraphs.  Only in the ninth paragraph was I informed "You have been placed in the support group because your illness or disability restricts the possibility of working". So, nearly a whole page of ever-increasing blood pressure and heart rate before they tell me the *important* fact!  This was followed by another four pages of their standard arsery, which I still read through, just in case there was a "just kidding, scrounger scum!" hidden anywhere in the text.
So, that's *that* dealt with for the present, anyway.


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## tufty79 (Jan 10, 2015)

Excellent, excellent news, VP and greebo x


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## StoneRoad (Jan 10, 2015)

At last ! and a result.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 10, 2015)

Great news Greebo and VP, I am surprised you got the full report on your medical in the post, I thought that only happened if you didn't pass. All I got was a letter saying I'd been put in the work group. When I went to my first 'work focused interview' at the job center they didn't have any information  from the medical about me either. When I told her I was a full time student she didn't quite know what to do with me and  she had to talk to her supervisor.  In the end they decided to leave me alone but  said I'd be asked to come back in 6 months just to see if my circumstances had changed!


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## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2015)

Hurrah ViolentPanda and Greebo jolly well done - was there any indication in the letter about when you might have to go through this again?


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## chainsawjob (Jan 10, 2015)

Glad to hear your news VP and Greebo, hope they leave you alone now for a good long while.


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## yardbird (Jan 10, 2015)

This is good news!


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## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2015)

Good news, ViolentPanda.


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## tufty79 (Jan 10, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Great news Greebo and VP, I am surprised you got the full report on your medical in the post, I thought that only happened if you didn't pass.


Afaik you can request it.. 
equationgirl - I never got anything in writing saying when i'd next be reassessed. I phoned the dwp and asked last month - they told me it'd be twelve months after my original assessment, the anniversary of which is looming in a couple of weeks. Not heard a sausage about it yet  half hoping the stories about atos delays still hold, otoh i'd rather get it over and done with - as long as i get notice and chance to prepare etc.. 
(obviously not answering for VP, like).


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## chainsawjob (Jan 10, 2015)

My reassessment date came and went a few months back, not heard anything as yet.


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## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Afaik you can request it..
> equationgirl - I never got anything in writing saying when i'd next be reassessed. I phoned the dwp and asked last month - they told me it'd be twelve months after my original assessment, the anniversary of which is looming in a couple of weeks. Not heard a sausage about it yet  half hoping the stories about atos delays still hold, otoh i'd rather get it over and done with - as long as i get notice and chance to prepare etc..
> (obviously not answering for VP, like).


Some people did seem to be getting an indication earlier in the thread (iirc Minnie_the_Minx and her friend did) but it wouldn't surprise me if the letter has been changed in light of a change of WCA provider seeing as ATOS are pulling out of the contract.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Hurrah ViolentPanda and Greebo jolly well done - was there any indication in the letter about when you might have to go through this again?



No, which makes me suspect it'll be the usual "once a year" _schtick_.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Great news Greebo and VP, I am surprised you got the full report on your medical in the post, I thought that only happened if you didn't pass.



Didn't. It was 5 pages of bumf about how much I'd be getting, and how I could apply for mandatory reconsideration (as fucking if!!!).
I will, however, be requesting copies of the contents of my case file, so that I can see how they made their decision.



> All I got was a letter saying I'd been put in the work group. When I went to my first 'work focused interview' at the job center they didn't have any information  from the medical about me either. When I told her I was a full time student she didn't quite know what to do with me and  she had to talk to her supervisor.  In the end they decided to leave me alone but  said I'd be asked to come back in 6 months just to see if my circumstances had changed!



Another  moment. They don't make it easy on themselves, do they? Bloody Atossers!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

StoneRoad said:


> At last ! and a result.



I'm still torn between being grateful that their awful fucking waiting room chairs put me in even more pain than usual, and being pissed off about it!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Afaik you can request it..



You can, and if you're likely to be on ESA for a while, it's worth requesting, as it'll help you a bit when you next have to fill in an ES50.



> equationgirl - I never got anything in writing saying when i'd next be reassessed. I phoned the dwp and asked last month - they told me it'd be twelve months after my original assessment, the anniversary of which is looming in a couple of weeks. Not heard a sausage about it yet  half hoping the stories about atos delays still hold, otoh i'd rather get it over and done with - as long as i get notice and chance to prepare etc..
> (obviously not answering for VP, like).



Problem with "notice" is that their statutory obligation on notice is only 10 working days IIRC.


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## andysays (Jan 10, 2015)

Great news ViolentPanda, but bizarre that they don't tell you straight up what the decision is without having to wade through numerous paragraphs to get to it.

When I got the result of my ESA assessment recently, the bad news was made very clear right at the beginning


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

chainsawjob said:


> My reassessment date came and went a few months back, not heard anything as yet.



Back when Incapacity Benefit was relatively new, it was supposed to be annual reassessments, but the medical examiners (and these *were* doctors, not Atos's "Healthcare practitioners") had the discretion to extend the period. I first had an IB assessment in '95, then one in '96 and one in '97. At the one in '97 the doctor spent a good 40 minutes questioning me and doing a physical exam, and then said "I'm recommending they don't re-assess you for ten years, because your condition has progressively worsened over your assessments, and the only rational prognosis is that you'll continue to slowly deteriorate". He was terribly apologetic about saying that, but as far as I was concerned, he was doing me a massive favour, and removing a major stress from my everyday life - the wait for the brown envelope to drop through the door.
I'm not saying this is what Atos have done with you, because at the end of the day they're incompetent, and are only interested in footfall/attendance and completions, but the DWP would be far more humane if they returned to such a discretionary system, rather than this _sub rosa_ quota system where they expect Atos to cut the number of claimants regardless of...well, anything.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

andysays said:


> Great news ViolentPanda, but bizarre that they don't tell you straight up what the decision is without having to wade through numerous paragraphs to get to it.
> 
> When I got the result of my ESA assessment recently, the bad news was made very clear right at the beginning



It starts with "we will pay ESA...", but doesn't actually mention which group I'm in until the 9th paragraph.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can, and if you're likely to be on ESA for a while, it's worth requesting, as it'll help you a bit when you next have to fill in an ES50.
> 
> 
> 
> Problem with "notice" is that their statutory obligation on notice is only 10 working days IIRC.


This is one of the bits where i forget how it all works - do they normally send out an esa50 prior to reassessment? 

andysays - sorry to hear you had bad news from them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 10, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> This is one of the bits where i forget how it all works - do they normally send out an esa50 prior to reassessment?



They're *supposed to*. Something like 8-12 weeks beforehand.


----------



## tufty79 (Jan 10, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're *supposed to*. Something like 8-12 weeks beforehand.


Thank you


----------



## andysays (Jan 10, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> This is one of the bits where i forget how it all works - do they normally send out an esa50 prior to reassessment?
> 
> andysays - sorry to hear you had bad news from them.



What I had recently was my initial assessment (even though it was 15 months after I submitted my ESA50) and they didn't send out a new ESA50 for that, we were working off the original one. Don't know about *re*assessment, 'cause I haven't had one of them.

And thanks for that - it wasn't exactly unexpected, and now I'm in mandatory reconsideration limbo until Jan 26th, but I'm lucky enough to have enough money in the bank to see me through, so things are nowhere near as bad for me as they are for some.


----------



## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Some people did seem to be getting an indication earlier in the thread (iirc Minnie_the_Minx and her friend did) but it wouldn't surprise me if the letter has been changed in light of a change of WCA provider seeing as ATOS are pulling out of the contract.



I was told award was for 2 years and that time is well up now


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 11, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Back when Incapacity Benefit was relatively new, it was supposed to be annual reassessments, but the medical examiners (and these *were* doctors, not Atos's "Healthcare practitioners") had the discretion to extend the period. I first had an IB assessment in '95, then one in '96 and one in '97. At the one in '97 the doctor spent a good 40 minutes questioning me and doing a physical exam, and then said "I'm recommending they don't re-assess you for ten years, because your condition has progressively worsened over your assessments, and the only rational prognosis is that you'll continue to slowly deteriorate". He was terribly apologetic about saying that, but as far as I was concerned, he was doing me a massive favour, and removing a major stress from my everyday life - the wait for the brown envelope to drop through the door.
> I'm not saying this is what Atos have done with you, because at the end of the day they're incompetent, and are only interested in footfall/attendance and completions, but the DWP would be far more humane if they returned to such a discretionary system, rather than this _sub rosa_ quota system where they expect Atos to cut the number of claimants regardless of...well, anything.



Thanks, yes back at the beginning (early 90's) when it was Invalidity Benefit, a term I found quite, well... invalidating , (although not sure incapacity is much better) I don't remember there being medicals at all, not in my case anyway.  When I started having them they weren't very often, every few years I think (and then there were some years I was working and out of the benefits system).  I think, as you say, ATOS haven't done this with me now, I think it's more with the backlog, reassessments were put on hold (was it anybody not already in the assessment process on some date in Jan/Feb '14?).  It's probably anybody's guess when the backlog will be cleared, and reassessments will resume, the whole thing is such a mess, although they did give a time period they expected them to be on hold, one year?  I don't think it's safe to assume anything really, they can make up the rules as they go along. And I don't know how it ties in with Maximus taking over, I think I read ATOS have to clear their backlog before they are let out of their contract.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 11, 2015)

chainsawjob said:


> <snip> It's probably anybody's guess when the backlog will be cleared, and reassessments will resume, the whole thing is such a mess, although they did give a time period they expected them to be on hold, one year?  I don't think it's safe to assume anything really, they can make up the rules as they go along. And I don't know how it ties in with Maximus taking over, I think I read ATOS have to clear their backlog before they are let out of their contract.


I think I may have mentioned before that Maximus is also a brand of lube.  So, whether assessed by people working for that firm, or using the lubricant, you're probably going to get shafted.  *gets coat*

NB:  The manufacturers have nothing to do with the company about to take over assessments - I'd just like to make that really clear.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 12, 2015)

Ironic like Greebo


----------



## Greebo (Jan 12, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Ironic like Greebo


Even I could work that one out.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 16, 2015)

Thought things were going a bit too smoothly to be true. Didn't receive my benefit on its due date this week. When I rang them this morning I was informed my ESA has been suspended because I am on a full time course and had not told them about it.  However I had told them all about it, I send them all the necessary info when I started the course when I was still on IB,then we discussed this at length at my ATOS medical, and at my work focused interview . When I explained this to the person on the phone this morning she said that they cant access the information I sent when I was on IB as it has been 'archived'. I had to miss a lecture today because I had  to run about in a panic getting  copies of everything to resend them. I am hoping that when they get this everything will be sorted. But what is really bugging me is that they didnt get in touch before they suspended the claim. No letter or anything!


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Thought things were going a bit too smoothly to be true. Didn't receive my benefit on its due date this week. When I rang them this morning I was informed my ESA has been suspended because I am on a full time course and had not told them about it.  However I had told them all about it, I send them all the necessary info when I started the course when I was still on IB,then we discussed this at length at my ATOS medical, and at my work focused interview . When I explained this to the person on the phone this morning she said that they cant access the information I sent when I was on IB as it has been 'archived'. I had to miss a lecture today because I had  to run about in a panic getting  copies of everything to resend them. I am hoping that when they get this everything will be sorted. But what is really bugging me is that they didnt get in touch before they suspended the claim. No letter or anything!


Oh ffs

I would be very surprised if they can't access the archived information at all. If it no longer exists it's destroyed.

I suspect the electronic records only go back so far and that information up to the start of the electronic records has been put in off site storage which might take some time to get back.

ViolentPanda knows the inner workings of the dwp better than I do though, Greebo might know too.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 16, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Oh ffs
> 
> I would be very surprised if they can't access the archived information at all. If it no longer exists it's destroyed.
> 
> ...



Once upon a time each division of the DWP archived its' own material, generally on-site for a year, then off-site for 6 years. Since the middle of the noughties, all paperwork is centrally archived off-site as soon as it has been "dealt with", then scanned and shredded. As you might imagine, this has meant a lot of communication problems between depts, as employees who used to deal with intra-departmental queries etc, have been let go, and employees are supposed to rely on this central archive to return (or not) relevant paperwork. Given the lead times for retrieval, dbd is probably better off re-compiling and re-submitting their evidence, sadly.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 16, 2015)

Cheers Mr panda


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 16, 2015)

According to the info on disabled students and ESA from the CPAG website


_'Contributory ESA can continue if you study part-time or full-time, unless you are a fulltime
student aged under 19 and getting ESA in youth . You must continue to
satisfy the medical test of limited capability for work'
_
As I recently had an ATOS medical where I discussed the fact that I am a student at length plus  attended a work related interview where they said they were  O.K about me being in full time education  I really dont understand what has happened here.
I phoned up again this afternoon, after I sent off a copy of my enrollment letter from the uni, the man I spoke to  left me on line for ages while he went off to  find out what the rules were regarding this,  then he came back and said he couldnt find the necessary information he needed to advise me properly. So I'll wait for them to get the letter I sent off today and see what happens next. Proper stressed about this, after  having passed the medical I really didnt expect this.

'


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> According to the info on disabled students and ESA from the CPAG website
> 
> 
> _'Contributory ESA can continue if you study part-time or full-time, unless you are a fulltime
> ...


Hang in there it sounds like they are being utter pillocks about your esa


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 17, 2015)

Right, so I've had a chat with a friend of mine who works for the DWP. According to him I am correct, I am without a doubt still entitled to ESA as a full time student as I am on DLA and have satisfyed  the conditions of the ATOS medical.
What is really annoying me is the ineptitude of the people I have spoken to on the phone at the contact center. Here's how the conversation went yesterday -

Me: I spoke to someone this morning and was told my claim has been suspended because I am enrolled on a course at university. This has never been a problem before and I do not understand this decision. Please explain
Contact center adviser: Ah yes but you're on ESA now and the rules are different from when you were on IB
Me: According to my information I am still permitted to attend university and continue to receive ESA
Contact center adviser: Yes but we don't have proof of your student finance payments which we need to take into account before we can continue to pay you
Me: I'm on contribution based ESA therefore whatever I get from student finance is irrelevant
Contact Center Adviser: Are you? oh yes so you are. Hang on and I'll go and see if I can find the information to advise you.
_very long wait_
Contact Center Adviser: Sorry I can't find anything about this.Therefore I  really can't  advise you. Just send us the information we asked for and a decision maker will get back to you in due course. Is there anything else we can help you with today?


according to my friend there are several things wrong here. For a start they have suspended my benefit without sending me out a letter advising me of this (known as a susp.1 letter)  I need this letter so that I know exactly why my benefit has been stopped and the steps I need to take to challenge it.
Secondly if the contact centre staff don't know what to do they are supposed to hand over my query to the actual workers at the benefit center who are obligated to ring me back within a 24  hour period. This has not happened.
My friend has assured me that this is just a case of DWP employing people who do not know the ins and outs of the benefit system  and once my file reaches a decision maker I should be O.K. But after going through the ordeal of the ATOS medical last year this is very frustrating. I'm trying not to think about it too much but I can't wait till Monday morning when I will ring them up and have a go at them again....


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 17, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Right, so I've had a chat with a friend of mine who works for the DWP. According to him I am correct, I am without a doubt still entitled to ESA as a full time student as I am on DLA and have satisfyed  the conditions of the ATOS medical.
> What is really annoying me is the ineptitude of the people I have spoken to on the phone at the contact center. Here's how the conversation went yesterday -
> 
> Me: I spoke to someone this morning and was told my claim has been suspended because I am enrolled on a course at university. This has never been a problem before and I do not understand this decision. Please explain
> ...


In this instance as the guidance is very clear and is a case of the advisers at the call centre knowing jack shit even though they should, I would be looking into the complaints procedure for the DWP. 

Besides, you may not be able to repeatedly send packs of information just because they're too crap to do their job correctly.

I can understand that you may be reluctant to make a complaint for a wide variety of reasons, not least the stress of it and the fear that your claim may be adversely affected if you do.


----------



## geminisnake (Jan 17, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> But what is really bugging me is that they didnt get in touch before they suspended the claim. No letter or anything!



Twice the first I knew about my claim being cancelled was a letter from the council telling me my HB was suspended. Never a letter from DWP on either occasion. Fortunately sorted easily(ish) both times but 
Just remembered, I did get an apology over the phone one of the times. I think they may have claimed to have called back and got my answering machine, they flapped a bit when I told them it couldn't have been my number as I don't have an answering machine.


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## pogo 10 (Jan 18, 2015)

In esa support group, got letter saying i have a pip assessment meeting at the end of february. Dreading it, but luckily for me my support worker will come with me. Good luck dynamic baddog.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 18, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> <snip> pip assessment meeting at the end of february. Dreading it, but luckily for me my support worker will come with me. <snip>


Congrats on getting into the ESA support group, although you'd probably prefer not to be in such a bad state at a relatively young age.  Best of luck with the PIP assessment, I suggest that you read (or reread) the Benefits and Work notes about PIP a few days before you go.

dynamicbaddog best of luck with getting your claim sorted out.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jan 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Congrats on getting into the ESA support group, although you'd probably prefer not to be in such a bad state at a relatively young age.  Best of luck with the PIP assessment, I suggest that you read (or reread) the Benefits and Work notes about PIP a few days before you go.
> 
> dynamicbaddog best of luck with getting your claim sorted out.


Thanks greebo, and will read up before i go there.


----------



## 8115 (Jan 18, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Congrats on getting into the ESA support group, although you'd probably prefer not to be in such a bad state at a relatively young age.


Support group eligibility isn't necessarily a permanent thing though, iyswim.  Sometimes people just need a bit of breathing space.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2015)

pogo 10 said:


> Thanks greebo, and will read up before i go there.


You'll do great, and if you don't your support worker will be there to help you


----------



## pogo 10 (Jan 18, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> You'll do great, and if you don't your support worker will be there to help you


Thanks equation girl and feel dead lucky cos my support worker is brilliant.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 19, 2015)

I rang them up again today. This time I got someone a bit more clued up. She still could'nt tell me for certain why my benefit has been suspended. However  she did say that this seems to be purely a box ticking admin procedure because  even though I am on contribution based ESA and  not means tested they still need to know about my student finance payments as contribution based ESA only lasts a year and they require a record of any other money coming in for when I get moved to income based ESA at the end of this year. She did agree that they were not supposed to suspend me without telling me about it first (according to her the decision was made on the 20th December which gave them plenty of time to contact me) I've been told the information I have send in will reach them by the 28th then a decision will be made and I will be written to. Nothing I can do about it till then.


----------



## 8115 (Jan 19, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I rang them up again today. This time I got someone a bit more clued up. She still could'nt tell me for certain why my benefit has been suspended. However  she did say that this seems to be purely a box ticking admin procedure because  even though I am on contribution based ESA and  not means tested they still need to know about my student finance payments as contribution based ESA only lasts a year and they require a record of any other money coming in for when I get moved to income based ESA at the end of this year. She did agree that they were not supposed to suspend me without telling me about it first (according to her the decision was made on the 20th December which gave them plenty of time to contact me) I've been told the information I have send in will reach them by the 28th then a decision will be made and I will be written to. Nothing I can do about it till then.


I thought it only lasted a year if you are in WRAG group?  In support group it lasts indefinitely.

Not sure of my facts here, not sure if it's relevant to you either.  This used to be the case, it may have changed.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 19, 2015)

8115 said:


> I thought it only lasted a year if you are in WRAG group?  In support group it lasts indefinitely.
> 
> Not sure of my facts here, not sure if it's relevant to you either.  This used to be the case, it may have changed.


I am in the WRAG group.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 19, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> I am in the WRAG group.


Any chance of contacting your local disability rights place or CAB before then, just in case the worst happens?


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Jan 20, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Any chance of contacting your local disability rights place or CAB before then, just in case the worst happens?


I'm going to mention it to Disability Support Team at uni, but there's not much that can be done until my evidence of my university enrollment gets to them. I also started a thread on the Benefits and Work  forum and have been informed it's an automatic suspension because the computer thinks it's a change of circumstances as they have no information about me from when I was on IB.


----------



## William of Walworth (Jan 21, 2015)

Not sure whether this is the best thread for this, but very interesting, and detailed, analysis by Amelia Gentleman in Monday's Guardian about Atos's succesor company, Maximus.

After hated Atos quits, will Maximus make work assessments less arduous?

(Short version of her answer -- NO, generally. But some detail that's worth rreading too).

ETA : Link now edited, in light of guidance from Greebo below  --- seems to work now ...


----------



## Greebo (Jan 21, 2015)

William of Walworth said:


> Not sure whether this is the best thread for this, but very interesting, and detailed, analysis by Amelia Gentleman in Monday's Guardian about Atos's succesor company, Maximus. <snip>


Thanks for the link.  BTW it's not working.  
http://www.theguardian.com/society/...ll-maximus-make-work-assessments-less-arduous

Then again, neither is the benefits system as it is.

Saucissons et puree de pommes de terre avec jus instead of bangers and mash with gravy then.


----------



## Blue tuesday (Jan 26, 2015)

hi~ I'm new here, though I've been a lurker on the site for a while : )

I've just received a letter from atos telling me i have an interview on friday (haven't opened post box for ages, so it may have been there a week or two). i have aspergers syndrome; i have zero support, no friends; the national autistic society phone line never answers- i have no idea what to do, expect say etc.

any advice? i have limited medical notes other than the diagnosis from a few years ago due to the hilarious lack of aspergres support, and I'm in the midst of a complex row with my gp so he won't help.

id like it recorded, as I've heard previously, as well as from reading through this, that that's advisable. i don't do very well in stress situations, to say the last, and i sometimes have trouble speaking, or collecting my thoughts; clearly this is going to cause problems, but i have no one to speak for me.

any advice gratefully received!


----------



## toggle (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> hi~ I'm new here, though I've been a lurker on the site for a while : )
> 
> I've just received a letter from atos telling me i have an interview on friday (haven't opened post box for ages, so it may have been there a week or two). i have aspergers syndrome; i have zero support, no friends; the national autistic society phone line never answers- i have no idea what to do, expect say etc.
> 
> ...



Bakunin


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## Blue tuesday (Jan 26, 2015)

i dont understand?


----------



## StoneRoad (Jan 26, 2015)

Ah, Toggle had "tagged" Bakunin - who is likely to have some / a lot of helpful info for you Blue tuesday


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## Blue tuesday (Jan 26, 2015)

ok, thanks. is it ok to just email someone out of the blue?

also, ive not filled out any form, just had a letter requesting interview. is that normal? thank you.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> ok, thanks. is it ok to just email someone out of the blue?
> 
> also, ive not filled out any form, just had a letter requesting interview. is that normal? thank you.


1) Hang on, it must have said which benefit this was about.  Is your ATOS interview about DLA/PIP or about IB/ESA?

2) If you really have to go on your own, you should get it recorded.  A recording will make it easier to appeal if you have to take things that far in order to get the help you need.

3) If you want it recorded, you need to ask in advance (if at all possible).  To make sure that ATOS get the message, you need to phone their assessment centre and then send a letter backing up your request.

4) You don't have to give a reason, although the difficulty which some people can have processing information when they're stressed or anxious is a good enough reason.  

5) Once you've requested that the interview is recorded, you have the right to refuse to be assessed unless it is recorded.


----------



## Blue tuesday (Jan 26, 2015)

thanks very much. actually, i don't know what benefit im on. its a higher rate.

the letter says 'we have been asked by the DWp to carry out an assessment in relation to your benefit claim. we have arranged an appointment for you at...'

i would like it recorded, as autism is hard for drs to understand if they are not familiar with it, so my case may be turned down. id like it backed up.

you said its ok to ask for this due to cognitive processing issues (which i have) but i don't understand how that will be aided by taping it? i will already have answered the questions by then. what reason can i give to have it taped? 

i can't go alone. i need someone to accompany me.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> thanks very much. actually, i don't know what benefit im on. its a higher rate.
> 
> the letter says 'we have been asked by the DWp to carry out an assessment in relation to your benefit claim. we have arranged an appointment for you at...'
> 
> ...


1)  If the benefit which you get is a higher rate, I assume it's Disability Living Allowance (gradually being turned into Personal Independance Payment).  there are two parts to it, care and mobility.  Even if you're physically able to walk around, you might get the mobility bit if you need somebody with you for reassurance, guiding, or to help keep you safe

2) The assessment might be taped (ViolentPanda's was and that was a couple of months ago), but ATOS's new recording machines are supposed to record onto 2 CDs at the same time.  You're given one copy to take home for your own use, and ATOS keep a copy.

3) The assessment basically tries to catch you contradicting what you've put on the form.  You won't probably be assessed by a doctor, it's more likely to be a nurse or a physiotherapist, who hasn't got a clue about autism, asperger's syndrome, or overlapping conditions.  The form is so long that it's not easy to give full answers.  Different words are okay, but you have to make sure that your answers still mean the same as when you filled in the form.

4) The recording is partly for your own protection.  You don't need to give a reason, everyone has the right to have the assessment recorded.  It means that if you're asked something, and the person assessing you either twists your answer (when inputting it on their computer or writing it down), tries to confuse you, or asks a trick question, this will show up, and it won't only be the word of the ATOS person against somebody who was increasingly confused or struggling to remain calm and behave appropriately.

5) I know it won't make the assessment easier for you, but the recording is like the easily picked lock on a locker - it reminds a mostly good person to behave well because getting caught is too much of a risk.


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## yardbird (Jan 26, 2015)

What assessment center is it please?


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## dynamicbaddog (Jan 26, 2015)

phew! finally got my ESA suspension lifted. Got a phone call from them admitting it was a mistake and they didn't even need the documents about my student finance as it's irrelevant because  I'm on contribution based ESA (just as I already knew) 
I  have now been assured that  I will get all my money backdated within 3 working days. Still pissed off that they put me through all that stress tho and if the call centre had agreed to put me  through to the actual benefit office dealing with my claim  when I originally rang them  this would have been sorted out a lot sooner


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## toggle (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> i dont understand?



I just gave my other half a shout, cause he's been through the system and he is aspie. and I thought he should be able to help with this.


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## Bakunin (Jan 26, 2015)

Can you try fixing the trouble with your GP? GP's can be immensely helpful if they're minded to be, so it would help you if you can patch things up with them. You should be able to request a home visit and that the visit be recorded, that's still an option as far as I'm aware. It might also delay them for a while owing to a shortage of recording equipment that they currently have. If you have anybody that can attend the assessment with you then ask them to do so. I'd also recommend keeping a book in which you note down all the things that cause problems for you as and when you encounter them What I call my 'Big Book of Loopy' has been useful before now.

Some general tips:

Don't panic. Easily said, I know.

Have somebody with you to witness the assessment if you can get anybody.

Try to patch things up with your GP if you can, they can be very useful.

Start keeping a book listing your problems.

Keep all official correspondence with doctors, social workers, support worker and suchlike for reference as these can bolster your case significantly.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> thanks very much. actually, i don't know what benefit im on. its a higher rate.
> 
> the letter says 'we have been asked by the DWp to carry out an assessment in relation to your benefit claim. we have arranged an appointment for you at...'
> 
> ...


Do you have anybody that could go with you to the appointment, and who could take notes if Required?


----------



## superfly101 (Jan 26, 2015)

Bakunin said:


> GP's can be immensely helpful if they're minded to be, so



GP's are often so out of touch with their user base it's obscene. They are also very prone to the same prejudices as a person who reads the red tops. 

Cambridge and Oxford don't you know. 

Having had one in the Pavilion Practice Brixton after a talk by the Brixton Advice Centre (who they were affiliated with) tell me I had to get a job. Well because there were Government changes and they would not support people like me......

That was 2010 and tbf it hasn't changed much!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 26, 2015)

Blue tuesday said:


> hi~ I'm new here, though I've been a lurker on the site for a while : )
> 
> I've just received a letter from atos telling me i have an interview on friday (haven't opened post box for ages, so it may have been there a week or two). i have aspergers syndrome; i have zero support, no friends; the national autistic society phone line never answers- i have no idea what to do, expect say etc.
> 
> ...


Welcome. I lurked for ages before joining too, and learned a lot from threads like this.  I'm sad to hear you have no one to help you. 



Blue tuesday said:


> also, ive not filled out any form, just had a letter requesting interview. is that normal? thank you.


Have you got a copy of the form from when you first claimed the benefit, even if that was a long time ago? It might remind you of why the benefit was given to you originally. Did someone help you then, with filling out the form or any previous medical - can you approach them to help you again?

Sorry, I haven't got any other specific advice, but I do wish you well.


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## Andrejka09 (Jan 29, 2015)

Hi there wounder if anybody could help me I had a medical today which I was real nervous about I have a history of fibromyalgia is Psoriasis arthritis clawhand and a few more unknown conditions plus anxiety and depression was my first ever medical.anyway person I saw called me asked what was wrong soi said and also said a few things I'm bing checked for like ms and lupus she said that I could go home now and would need come bk to see a dr has this happened to anyone b4 and was it a good or bad thing


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 29, 2015)

Andrejka09 said:


> Hi there wounder if anybody could help me I had a medical today which I was real nervous about I have a history of fibromyalgia is Psoriasis arthritis clawhand and a few more unknown conditions plus anxiety and depression was my first ever medical.anyway person I saw called me asked what was wrong soi said and also said a few things I'm bing checked for like ms and lupus she said that I could go home now and would need come bk to see a dr has this happened to anyone b4 and was it a good or bad thing


It's likely that the assessor was not a doctor and due to your complex medical conditions, including possible MS, decided not to proceed with your assessment today. ATOS uses 'health care practitioners' which is a wide range of healthcare staff from doctors and nurses through to chiropractors and chiropodists. 

This means that your assessment will be rescheduled and carried out by someone more familiar with your conditions, which is a good thing. Don't forget that you have to right to request that your assessment is recorded, which can you request via information in your appointment letter. As you may not be able to write I would say it is important for you to have a recorded copy of your assessment. Also, take someone with you if you can.

Best of luck.


----------



## Andrejka09 (Jan 29, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It's likely that the assessor was not a doctor and due to your complex medical conditions, including possible MS, decided not to proceed with your assessment today. ATOS uses 'health care practitioners' which is a wide range of healthcare staff from doctors and nurses through to chiropractors and chiropodists.
> 
> This means that your assessment will be rescheduled and carried out by someone more familiar with your conditions, which is a good thing. Don't forget that you have to right to request that your assessment is recorded, which can you request via information in your appointment letter. As you may not be able to write I would say it is important for you to have a recorded copy of your assessment. Also, take someone with you if you can.
> 
> Best of luck.


Thanks for the information Hun appreciated


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 30, 2015)

Andrejka09 said:


> Thanks for the information Hun appreciated


No problem, happy to help.


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## toggle (Jan 30, 2015)

Andrejka09 said:


> Thanks for the information Hun appreciated



a mention of lupus and they will need to decide whether it is appropriate to ask you to attend an assessment. 

http://dwpexamination.org/forum/use...ss-should-and-should-not-attend-atos-medical/


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## Andrejka09 (Jan 31, 2015)

Thanks for info Hun


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## Andrejka09 (Feb 1, 2015)

Just hope it helps to have multiple conditions and a unknown disease


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## Greebo (Feb 2, 2015)

Andrejka09 said:


> Just hope it helps to have multiple conditions and a unknown disease


It's not supposed to matter which diagnoses you have, it's supposed to consider how badly affected your life is.  I know that it's not pleasant, having to describe the very worst bits of your current life, but it helps to give a clear picture of your condition(s).  eg "If I need 3 sessions of dental treatment, it usually takes several weeks, because I have to rest for more than a week between each appointment."


----------



## Andrejka09 (Feb 2, 2015)

Ok thanks your advise helping a lot thanks


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## Andrejka09 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hi there I had a medical last week finally after waiting since last march was my first ever medical was told to go home and I would need come back to see one off there dr does anybody have any advise has it happened to them and how long I might have to wait this time I'm also waiting to hear about pip I appleied for on October is this a separate medical thanks


----------



## dynamicbaddog (Feb 5, 2015)

aaaargh! Due my fortnightly  payment today, however money were'nt in the account. When I rang them I was told it was because the backdated payment they issued last week has confused the computer and taken  me out of my regular payment cycle. I have been promised a same day payment will be issued sometime this afternoon, but they also said that they can't guarantee that the computer will  put me back on the regular payment cycle, so they said I need  to ring them a couple of days before my next payment just to make sure it gets issued to me on the due date. This is so incredibly annoying, never got these troubles when I was on IB.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 5, 2015)

Andrejka09 said:


> Hi there I had a medical last week finally after waiting since last march was my first ever medical was told to go home and I would need come back to see one off there dr does anybody have any advise has it happened to them and how long I might have to wait this time <snip>


Yes, it's happened before, it was an ESA assessment done by ATOS.  The first time, the practitioner had concvenitnetly forgotten that it was supposed to be recorded.  After VP stated that an unrecorded assessment was absolutely not acceptable, the practitioner agreed to reschedule it.  The centre's manager also completely refunded the fare to get there the first time, because it was ATOS's fault that it had to be cancelled.

The rescheduled assessment was two or three weeks later.  If you haven't had a letter or phone call after three weeks, you'll need to follow that up (or get somebody to do that for you).

BTW let me emphasise:  These assessments are not medicals, most of the assessors will not have a clue about your conditions or the treatment of them.  Even if they take place in a room fitted out like a doctor's room, that's still no reason to trust the person assessing you.



Andrejka09 said:


> <snip>I'm also waiting to hear about pip I appleied for on October is this a separate medical thanks


Yes.


----------



## Greebo (Feb 5, 2015)

dynamicbaddog said:


> aaaargh! Due my fortnightly  payment today, however money were'nt in the account. When I rang them I was told it was because the backdated payment they issued last week has confused the computer <snip> This is so incredibly annoying, never got these troubles when I was on IB.


A horrid cynic might think that the current system were designed to make people even more ill.  (((dbd)))


----------



## buscador (Feb 23, 2015)

A spokesperson from Maximus (?) was on R4 You and Yours earlier talking about taking over the Atos contract. I missed most of it (not being an habitual listener to that programme) - did anyone hear it?


----------



## Greebo (Feb 23, 2015)

buscador said:


> A spokesperson from Maximus (?) was on R4 You and Yours earlier talking about taking over the Atos contract. I missed most of it (not being an habitual listener to that programme) - did anyone hear it?


Unfortunately I missed that bit, but it probably would have revealed nothing we don't already know or suspect.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 9, 2015)

Edit: ignore


----------



## Greebo (Mar 9, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Edit: ignore


No problem, good luck with getting help to get your form accurately completed and returned in time, as mentioned elsewhere.


----------



## tufty79 (Mar 9, 2015)

Thank you


----------



## yardbird (Mar 27, 2015)

Whispers prove worrying 
Tax DLA ffs !
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32084722


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 27, 2015)

yardbird said:


> Whispers prove worrying
> Tax DLA ffs !
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32084722


Hopefully they will stay as pie in the sky 'what if' proposals. Part of their election propaganda.


----------



## tufty79 (Apr 28, 2015)

Just a not-that-quick thing about PIP assessments and recording them... 
Not sure about the other assessors, but ATOS do not and will not provide recording equipment. You can record your assessment yourself, with advance notice, but you will have to provide *two* identical copies of the recording (one for you,  one for them) at the end of the assessment on either tape or CD. 

From their website:


> "It is possible for you to audio record your consultation. There are certain requirements that DWP have set for the audio recording of consultations, which have been listed below:
> 
> You can request to audio record your consultation by calling our Customer Service Centre, but you will need to provide your own equipment.
> 
> ...


http://www.atoshealthcare.com/pip/at_your_consultation

Basically you can only use either a twin cassette recorder, or fuck-knows-what for a cd, seeing as they reckon laptops aren't suitable 

They've rebooked my appointment (i wanted to double check the recording stuff, and have concluded i haven't a hope in hell of sorting that out)  after i turned up brandishing a dictaphone, and they had to double check their policy (i was told on the phone i just needed to provide a tape recording, no mention of the other stuff) and i'm a bit miffed. Apparently i'm the first person they've had requesting a recording, which i found a bit surprising...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 28, 2015)

That's interesting tufty79...

Thanks for the info.

Why are ATOS still assessing? I know I know this, or I did a few months ago, but pain is bad today and my brain is misfiring.


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## tufty79 (Apr 28, 2015)

Looks like it was just the ESA contract that ended early - both they and capita are doing PIP. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Looks like it was just the ESA contract that ended early - both they and capita are doing PIP. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-26766345


Thanks tufty, fucking disgrace that they're still involved at all.


----------



## tufty79 (May 1, 2015)

The other bits that stood out... 
The assessment centre's a bastard to find. The road it's on doesn't have any street signs, and the building isn't easy to find once you're on there. Accessibility-wise, it was fine - ground floor, ramps, automatic doors etc. 
The staff seemed friendly and nice enough.The receptionist buggered off for five minutes while we were waiting though, meaning someone was stuck outside ringing the buzzer for ages. 

Going by the phone conversation between reception and atos to clarify their own procedures, my friend that came with me was assumed to be my support worker; when they spoke to us to rearrange, they only addressed her and not me. Not a major thing, but weird to experience. 

/rambling


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 1, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Going by the phone conversation between reception and atos to clarify their own procedures, my friend that came with me was assumed to be my support worker; when they spoke to us to rearrange, they only addressed her and not me. Not a major thing, but weird to experience.
> 
> /rambling



Well look on the bright side, if they think you are not capable of arranging your own appt, they can't pass you fit to work. 
Hope everything is ok.


----------



## tufty79 (May 1, 2015)

Cheers friendofdorothy - it's for PIP (new name for DLA) - thankfully i'm in the support group for ESA, for the time being at least. 
I'm still furious about their assessment recording policies. We've had a search and found a tape recorder they'd accept and it's £180  i don't trust them enough to not want to have it recorded, but there's no way i can manage that. 

my friend and i have talked about saving up together for one long term, and working out a way to do an equipment loan service for anyone in the same position in future. Probably never happen, but it's a nice idea...


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 1, 2015)

andysays said:


> Thanks, that's a useful way of approaching it. I'll make an appointment to discuss this with my GP ASAP and see if I can get her to write some sort of summary of my medical history as it relates to this. Even if I have to pay for this, sounds like it will be money well spent.
> 
> And I would be very interested in finding out more about these LIMA software questions if equationgirl or anyone else knows more about them - I find it much easier to prepare for this sort of thing beforehand than do it off the cuff.



Can they really insist you have such special recording equipment? calling equationgirl ViolentPanda yardbird  - Anyone know?

Has anyone on this thread got access to that type of equipment or know where it can be loaned /hired?


----------



## tufty79 (May 1, 2015)

This is their criteria:


It's the 'your equipment must be able to produce two identical copies' bit (on their website) that makes it more frustrating/difficult, as well as them discounting using a laptop/smartphone etc - if i was allowed to use two dictaphones it'd be relatively straightforward, but no....


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Can they really insist you have such special recording equipment? calling equationgirl ViolentPanda yardbird  - Anyone know?



For PIP apparently they can. They learned a lesson from getting caned over recording with ESA.  



> Has anyone on this thread got access to that type of equipment or know where it can be loaned /hired?



The kind of kit you'd require will cost several hundred quid (simultaneous dual recording cassette deck as beloved of the Old Bill) 2nd-hand, or over a thousand quid (simultaneous dual recording CD deck) new, and they're pricey because the market is small. Basically ATOS/Crapita know they've got claimants over a barrel with regard to recording PIP interviews, and if you DO manage to get the kit, you have to sign some kind of form limiting how you can use *your* recording, or they won't let you record! 
Seems to me that surreptitious recording is the only way to go.


----------



## tufty79 (May 1, 2015)

Exactly


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 1, 2015)

Thanks ViolentPanda. That seems very awkward and suspicious of them. 

Best of luck Tufty x


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks ViolentPanda. That seems very awkward and suspicious of them.
> 
> Best of luck Tufty x



You're too nice for your own good with your "very awkward and suspicious"! 
They're doing it because it deters people from continuing their claims, and means that their "assessors" can get away with all sorts of shit - bullying or abusing claimants for example.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 1, 2015)

Yes I'm being too fair to them. atos-sers


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Yes I'm being too fair to them. atos-sers


Time for a repost


----------



## superfly101 (May 1, 2015)

An audio recording only proves what was said!

It "may" get you a fairer assessment because the HCP is under more pressure to be complete! Other than that a recording is useless!

Proving or disproving what was said will not get you a benefit award. Proving that you fit the limited descriptors gets you a benefit award.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 1, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> An audio recording only proves what was said!
> 
> It "may" get you a fairer assessment because the HCP is under more pressure to be complete! Other than that a recording is useless!
> 
> Proving or disproving what was said will not get you a benefit award. Proving that you fit the limited descriptors gets you a benefit award.


I thought the point was to back up your case if you need to appeal or have need to complain.
Also useful if your condition affects memory.


----------



## tufty79 (May 1, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I thought the point was to back up your case if you need to appeal or have need to complain.
> Also useful if your condition affects memory.


Exactly this. I haven't suggested it would magically make me 'pass' the assessment, nor do i expect to be assessed on anything other than whether i fit their descriptors. 

If it takes recording an assessment to make it 'fairer' or as thorough as it should be, that's a little bit... well.. wrong.


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> <snip>Proving or disproving what was said will not get you a benefit award. Proving that you fit the limited descriptors gets you a benefit award.


Any proof at all (even a person in the room taking notes) of what went on during the assessment is valuable - I have seen so many half truths and outright lies used by the person doing the examining that I no longer trust these people, no matter how pleasant or polite they may seem.


----------



## dishevelled (May 1, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Any proof at all (even a person in the room taking notes) of what went on during the assessment is valuable - I have seen so many half truths and outright lies used by the person doing the examining that I no longer trust these people, no matter how pleasant or polite they may seem.



Sorry... just stumbled into here.

We live paranoid lives now. The more you hear about this ^^^ the less you want to communicate. And all the fuckers on the other side of the table have the advantage of "we'll be listening in and uses it to teach the next generation of fascists how to fuck you without even an iris dilation... while we monitor you and discard you like the non being that you are."

Wrong thread... sorry


----------



## Greebo (May 1, 2015)

dishevelled said:


> Sorry... just stumbled into here. <snip>


It's okay.  I know it's not a comfortable way to live, OTOH at least most people get at least a year between assessments.  Even so, I'm convinced that they  noticeably affect the chances of people stabilising, let alone improving.


----------



## superfly101 (May 1, 2015)

Greebo said:


> Any proof at all (even a person in the room taking notes) of what went on during the assessment is valuable - I have seen so many half truths and outright lies used by the person doing the examining that I no longer trust these people, no matter how pleasant or polite they may seem.



Oh behave!

If you have to appeal the tribunal is not interested in the slightest in he said she said....

You win an appeal by stating;
I fit descriptor a, b, c & d because......

Too many people get caught up (then encouraged by others) in some hopeless crusade against a HCP and what they said/didn't say/wrote in a "report" that they forget the basics. 

Yes you mention it in passing to discredit it where needed. BUT......

You have to state why you qualify giving examples. 

If you have a recording/notes that shows the HCP has lied or misrepresented anything then you would have grounds to complain to the DWP and their employer about their HCP. That is a completely separate matter and although it may help discredit the evidence in the report unless you concentrate on why you meet the criteria for the benefit you will lose!


----------



## dishevelled (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Oh behave!
> 
> If you have to appeal the tribunal is not interested in the slightest in he said she said....
> 
> ...



Wow... I suppose you're still too stuck up your arse still to do pro bono.

Where's the exit to this thread?


----------



## Greebo (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> <snip>If you have a recording/notes that shows the HCP has lied or misrepresented anything then you would have grounds to complain to the DWP and their employer about their HCP. That is a completely separate matter and although it may help discredit the evidence in the report unless you concentrate on why you meet the criteria for the benefit you will lose!


Kindly refrain from teaching me how to suck eggs, sweetie.  Nobody here has said that a recording will win a claim.

It's like a flimsy lock - it keeps people honest.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Oh behave!
> 
> If you have to appeal the tribunal is not interested in the slightest in he said she said....
> 
> ...



You kind of miss the point that if (as has happened in a significant minority of assessment) part of the reason for a person "failing" is because the HCP hasn't done their job properly - i.e. asked questions to elicit answers with regard to how you meet the descriptors, then having proof that those questions *weren't* asked is important.
But carry on with your ranting about hopeless crusades, and your patronisation, why don't you?


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

Hmmmm. I find it interesting that they want a claimant to sign something limiting the use of a sound recording made by the claimant. From a copyright point of view, that may breach legal rights of the claimant as the copyright owner. 

Anybody know a) if they ask claimant to sign two copies of the form so they have a copy for their own records and b) anybody have a copy of the form itself signed or otherwise?


----------



## superfly101 (May 2, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Hmmmm. I find it interesting that they want a claimant to sign something limiting the use of a sound recording made by the claimant. From a copyright point of view, that may breach legal rights of the claimant as the copyright owner.
> 
> Anybody know a) if they ask claimant to sign two copies of the form so they have a copy for their own records and b) anybody have a copy of the form itself signed or otherwise?



Form and guidance here https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...io-recording-of-face-to-face-assessments-faqs


----------



## tufty79 (May 2, 2015)

The above's for ESA; i can't find anything for PIP at the moment.


----------



## superfly101 (May 2, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> The above's for ESA; i can't find anything for PIP at the moment.



Tbf I've not really had a look at PIP it would seam they were allowed! Then they were not! 

These folks seam to have done it https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/...-when-we-recorded-a-pip-assessment-interview/

https://www.whatdotheyknow.com holds FOI requests which might have something not published on/missing from yougov


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> An audio recording only proves what was said!
> 
> It "may" get you a fairer assessment because the HCP is under more pressure to be complete! Other than that a recording is useless!
> 
> Proving or disproving what was said will not get you a benefit award. Proving that you fit the limited descriptors gets you a benefit award.


We all know this, thank you.

We are not stupid and understand that a sound recording only proves what was said at a certain time, and especially if unedited. For assessment purposes it can be invaluable for claimants as they have proof of what questions were asked, what ones weren't asked and what answers were given. It also shows the assessor's attitudes towards the claimant during the assessment as there have been numerous reports of assessments inappropriately conduct not to mention bullying.

The ESA Form raises two questions :

1. It claims that due to the data protection act the claimant may only use the recording for personal, family or household reasons. This act places restrictions usually on 3rd parties for holding personal data. As it is the claimant's personal information that is being recorded, this would seem somewhat odd, after all if the claimant wants to disclose their personal information it is their right to do so.

2) The second point to note is that documents seeks to prevent publication or reproduction of the recording. assuming in this case the claimant has made the recording then they will be the copyright owner (iir,  my books are at work) of that sound recording and as such has the exclusive right to do numerous things with that work including publish and reproduce it.

Usually the owner allows others to do some of these acts, for example a songwriter may let other record a version of their song, or an author licence their publisher to publish their books. To restrict a copyright owner in this way is extremely unusual, and the only examples I can think of would be if the work was disturbing or offensive (films restricted to 18 certificate) but those are really to do with copyright intersecting with other laws about pyrography, offensive publications or libel laws and I do not think any of those would likely apply in this situation. And again, it's a recording made by the claimant about the claimant. The assessor will only be asking standard questions so there is no confidential information other than the claimant's.


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

Oh yes, forgot the I am not a lawyer disclaimer


----------



## superfly101 (May 2, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> We all know this, thank you.
> 
> We are not stupid



Well good for you! Can you vouch for anybody casually finding this thread or just passing through?

By the way next time you can't find the official form, that is the 1st result in google, that leads to the official Government site on the subject you want..... maybe WE can find it for you?


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Well good for you! Can you vouch for anybody casually finding this thread or just passing through?
> 
> By the way next time you can't find the official form, that is the 1st result in google, that leads to the official Government site on the subject you want..... maybe WE can find it for you?


I didn't say I couldn't find it. For your information the pain has been so bad today that for most of the day I have not been able to sit up long enough to use a computer. I can post on my phone but searching copying and pasting is a bit beyond my current capabilities. So sorry if that doesn't suit you but on this thread we help each other out if someone asks. 

If you've only come onto this thread to mock or be superior then there are other threads where you can go. This thread is for supporting those through the various assessment processes.

And as already been pointed out, you posted the ESA Form, not the one for PIP which was the form I asked about.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Well good for you! Can you vouch for anybody casually finding this thread or just passing through?
> 
> By the way next time you can't find the official form, that is the 1st result in google, that leads to the official Government site on the subject you want..... maybe WE can find it for you?



Does being an arse come naturally to you, or have you invested in lessons?


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Does being an arse come naturally to you, or have you invested in lessons?


Lessons by the looks of things.


----------



## tufty79 (May 2, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> These folks seam to have done it https://welfaretales.wordpress.com/...-when-we-recorded-a-pip-assessment-interview/



Thank you for that link - useful stuff. Will check next week with them whether they would definitely accept that method. 

Thanks equationgirl for the copyright advice - interesting stuff.


----------



## equationgirl (May 2, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Thank you for that link - useful stuff. Will check next week with them whether they would definitely accept that method.
> 
> Thanks equationgirl for the copyright advice - interesting stuff.


You're welcome. I think I will look into this angle further when I go back to work later this week.


----------



## tufty79 (May 14, 2015)

Well, i went back on tuesday. Quite a few niggling things, including the assessor telling my friend she didn't need to take notes, as she'd just be duplicating whatever he put into the system and we could request a copy of the report. Also took my ability to attend the assessment and have *a* friend (the one who came with me) as evidence that i don't have any problems whatsoever engaging with people 

He pressured me a lot to agree with statements i hadn't made, or weren't right. I'm guessing i've failed but fuckit - i'm ok with asking for a reconsideration/appeal, i think


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> <snip>assessor telling my friend she didn't need to take notes, as she'd just be duplicating whatever he put into the system and we could request a copy of the report. <snip>


(((tufty))) That's a matter of opinion, and I hope that comment was ignored.  FWIW when I've been doing what your friend did, I didn't just jot down what was said, I noted actions, timekeeping, arrangement of the room, my general impression of the person's manner (including how they spoke after being told that VP lipreads, so needs to see their mouth, but doesn't require a loud voice)  etc.



tufty79 said:


> <snip>took my ability to attend the assessment and have *a* friend (the one who came with me) as evidence that i don't have any problems engaging with people


That bit could be disputed - it's a "not unless..." answer.  If you fell out with that person, or they weren't available that day, you'd be stuffed.  ie. unable to attend without a lot of distress, even if you got there and back with no noticeable physical harm.


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Well, i went back on tuesday. Quite a few niggling things, including the assessor telling my friend she didn't need to take notes, as she'd just be duplicating whatever he put into the system and we could request a copy of the report. Also took my ability to attend the assessment and have *a* friend (the one who came with me) as evidence that i don't have any problems whatsoever engaging with people
> 
> He pressured me a lot to agree with statements i hadn't made, or weren't right. I'm guessing i've failed but fuckit - i'm ok with asking for a reconsideration/appeal, i think


It may help you to know that there are reports of this type of behaviour by the assessors both on this thread and elsewhere on the Internet.  Happy to help you with the appeal if you decide to go down that route x x


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 14, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Well, i went back on tuesday. Quite a few niggling things, including the assessor telling my friend she didn't need to take notes, as she'd just be duplicating whatever he put into the system and we could request a copy of the report. Also took my ability to attend the assessment and have *a* friend (the one who came with me) as evidence that i don't have any problems whatsoever engaging with people



All your ability to attend the assessment with a friend shows is that you're more or less comfortable with *ONE* person. Anyone taking it to mean anything more than that is either stupid or engaging in wishful thinking.



> He pressured me a lot to agree with statements i hadn't made, or weren't right. I'm guessing i've failed but fuckit - i'm ok with asking for a reconsideration/appeal, i think



Let's hope he hasn't fucked you over - if he has, you've got your recording and his report to use to pick apart any lies.


----------



## equationgirl (May 14, 2015)

Bet the report is a pack of shite anyway thanks to that crappy software.


----------



## Greebo (May 14, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Bet the report is a pack of shite anyway thanks to that crappy software.


I fear it may be, but hope it'll be okay.


----------



## yardbird (May 20, 2015)

Ah yes.
The crappy software that we paid ATOS for the development costs of and then pay ATOS for using what we have paid for!
(mixture of tenses there, but you get my drift)
I'd like to know who signed the actual contract on our behalf.
Some grey civil servant ?



equationgirl said:


> Bet the report is a pack of shite anyway thanks to that crappy software.


----------



## equationgirl (May 20, 2015)

yardbird said:


> Ah yes.
> The crappy software that we paid ATOS for the development costs of and then pay ATOS for using what we have paid for!
> (mixture of tenses there, but you get my drift)
> I'd like to know who signed the actual contract on our behalf.
> Some grey civil servant ?


I'd love to see the whole contract, personally,  although I doubt my blood pressure would take a single reading of it.


----------



## tufty79 (May 21, 2015)

Sorry for not responding sooner, I've been trying to ostrich a bit 


Greebo said:


> (((tufty))) That's a matter of opinion, and I hope that comment was ignored.  FWIW when I've been doing what your friend did, I didn't just jot down what was said, I noted actions, timekeeping, arrangement of the room, my general impression of the person's manner (including how they spoke after being told that VP lipreads, so needs to see their mouth, but doesn't require a loud voice)  etc..


She thought the assessor was just being really nice and helpful, so stopped. 



equationgirl said:


> It may help you to know that there are reports of this type of behaviour by the assessors both on this thread and elsewhere on the Internet.  Happy to help you with the appeal if you decide to go down that route x x


Thank you - that's *hugely appreciated x



ViolentPanda said:


> Let's hope he hasn't fucked you over - if he has, you've got your recording and his report to use to pick apart any lies.


Nope, no recording - we couldn't sort the equipment. 



equationgirl said:


> Bet the report is a pack of shite anyway thanks to that crappy software.


Will let you know when it lands... 

They've said i should have a decision by tomorrow or the following Friday, so should know fairly soon what's happening 

Thank you all for the help, support and advices xx


----------



## Celyn (May 21, 2015)

Fingers crossed for you.


----------



## equationgirl (May 21, 2015)

Hope it's a good result tufty79 x Best of luck!


----------



## tufty79 (May 21, 2015)

Thank you x


----------



## tufty79 (May 22, 2015)

Good news - i've been awarded the standard daily living component. Assuming the worst = being doubly surprised when it's not  very pleased to have one less fighty thing than i thought. 


Huge thank yous again to you all x


----------



## Libertad (May 22, 2015)

No more than you're entitled to tufty79 Really glad that you've got this without having to appeal etc.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 22, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Good news - i've been awarded the standard daily living component. Assuming the worst = being doubly surprised when it's not  very pleased to have one less fighty thing than i thought.
> 
> 
> Huge thank yous again to you all x



Congratulations!


----------



## tufty79 (May 22, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> my friend and i have talked about saving up together for one long term, and working out a way to do an equipment loan service for anyone in the same position in future. Probably never happen, but it's a nice idea...


Doing this. E2a: and as if by magic, there's now  a double recording tape deck on ebay for all of 99p,with four hours to go.


----------



## equationgirl (May 22, 2015)

tufty79 I am absolutely over the moon for you, for the award and the tape deck x x 

Hurrah!!


----------



## 8115 (May 22, 2015)

Congratulations tufty79 I hope that gives you some security and breathing space for a while.


----------



## tufty79 (May 23, 2015)

8115 said:


> Congratulations tufty79 I hope that gives you some security and breathing space for a while.


Just a bit.. Got my assessment report, and they've recommended reassessing me in four years.. 
(e2a: award letter says this one lasts til may '18, and they'll contact me after may '17)
equationgirl, if you want a copy to look at their reporty stuff, let us know.


----------



## equationgirl (May 23, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Just a bit.. Got my assessment report, and they've recommended reassessing me in four years..
> equationgirl, if you want a copy to look at their reporty stuff, let us know.


So long as it reads ok, it sounds like the assessor used the software correctly.  if anything reads like 'the claimant has a mild case of amputation ' that's when the report effectively becomes useless x


----------



## equationgirl (May 23, 2015)

And four years before your next assessment is really great news too tufty79 x


----------



## tufty79 (May 30, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Doing this.


Fail on ebaying a double tape recording deck, but success on getting two identical machines (which someone at atos confirmed is fine this morning), and a stack of tapes. 

If anyone needs a PIP assessment recording but doesn't have access to equipment, please email piprecorder[at]gmail.com to sort out borrowing some x


----------



## equationgirl (May 30, 2015)

nice one tufty79 that's a really kind thing to do. Hope you're starting to recover from your own assessment x


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 9, 2015)

Ugh. Just got my appointment for ESA assessment in the post.  It's only 16 months since I filled in the questionnaire. Part of me hoped they'd forgotten I exist or sent it to the wrong address and then I'd drop out of the system. What's the point of NI credits anyway?


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 9, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> Ugh. Just got my appointment for ESA assessment in the post.  It's only 16 months since I filled in the questionnaire. Part of me hoped they'd forgotten I exist or sent it to the wrong address and then I'd drop out of the system. What's the point of NI credits anyway?


Is it a first assessment or a repeat assessment?


----------



## 8115 (Jun 9, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> Ugh. Just got my appointment for ESA assessment in the post.  It's only 16 months since I filled in the questionnaire. Part of me hoped they'd forgotten I exist or sent it to the wrong address and then I'd drop out of the system. What's the point of NI credits anyway?


I think it's good for your pension.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jun 9, 2015)

NI credits are the other way of getting your pension - if you don't pay the stamp as an employee. I've a broken employment history but NI credits fill in enough of the gaps (so far, at least) that mean I'll have enough qualifying years - unless *they* move the d*** goalposts (again). The third way to get "qualifying years" is to pay over a lump sum.


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 9, 2015)

I do seriously wonder about paying a lump sum instead at some point - but then obviously I'd need to have that money and also I don't want to contribute to the no longer claiming figures.

equationgirl  I've had assessments before. I was migrated off IB a few years ago.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 9, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> I do seriously wonder about paying a lump sum instead at some point - but then obviously I'd need to have that money and also I don't want to contribute to the no longer claiming figures.
> 
> equationgirl  I've had assessments before. I was migrated off IB a few years ago.


Do you have enough time to prepare for the assessment?  Also, were you given any kind of indication in your last decision letter of a minimum time before you would be called for assessment again? If it's sooner than you were told you should be able to push it back.

I wish you all the best x


----------



## Greebo (Jun 10, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> I do seriously wonder about paying a lump sum instead at some point - but then obviously I'd need to have that money and also I don't want to contribute to the no longer claiming figures. <snip>


You have to pay it at an IMHO arbitrarily set time - neither before nor after - and it's pretty poor value for money compared with the NI credits.  

A one year gap in my record (caused by the compulsory academic year of studying elsewhere in the EU, as part of a languages course) would have been over £300 to make good in the early 1990s.  Between overdraft and dole there was no way I could find that money, and I'm no longer allowed to pay it, even if I could.


----------



## StoneRoad (Jun 10, 2015)

Paying over a small amount - not sure exactly how much - was the route a close friend needed to take as retirement was approaching and the gap needed filling. Worked for them, mileage may vary for others !
Having the retirement age moved has caught a lot of people in a certain age group between a rock and a hard place, like a lot of others - I've only just scraped over the bar.
This has reminded me to get another forecast.


----------



## Fingers (Jun 28, 2015)

*Man who cannot walk or talk called for jobcentre 'back to work' interview*

http://www.theguardian.com/society/...t-walk-or-talk-called-for-jobcentre-interview


----------



## Greebo (Jun 28, 2015)

Fingers said:


> *Man who cannot walk or talk called for jobcentre 'back to work' interview *<snip>


Ridiculous case of jobsworth & system vs human.  People on his type of ESA aren't even supposed to be subject to mandatory interviews, and the voluntary nature of the ones they're 'invited'* to attend at jobcentres should be emphasised when the letters etc are sent out.

*In much the same spirit as I'd invite my worst enemy to go and play in the middle of a fast flowing motorway.


----------



## passenger (Jun 28, 2015)

well i had my interview for PIP, got 16 points i got 20 points  a year ago and i`m worse
i can hardly walk,i`m in pain  but the nasty ATOS people, who are so two faced
tried stich me up on the points, im becoming an expert at this ...hopefully I 
can resolve it with a phone interview  i had last thursday i really hope the dwp have
more common sense  and award me the points i need.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 28, 2015)

passenger said:


> well i had my interview for PIP, got 16 points i got 20 points  a year ago and i`m worse
> i can hardly walk,i`m in pain  but the nasty ATOS people, who are so two faced
> tried stich me up on the points, im becoming an expert at this ...hopefully I
> can resolve it with a phone interview  i had last thursday i really hope the dwp have
> more common sense  and award me the points i need.


good luck. I'm wishing you the strength to keep fighting them x


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 28, 2015)

Fingers said:


> *Man who cannot walk or talk called for jobcentre 'back to work' interview*
> 
> http://www.theguardian.com/society/...t-walk-or-talk-called-for-jobcentre-interview


Grrrh! makes me wonder what sort of training or experience those job centre staff have. They have no idea of the stress they can cause with those letters. Perhaps they are on some sort of bonus scheme, so many £s everytime they can bully an ill person out of benefits.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 28, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Grrrh! makes me wonder what sort of training or experience those job centre staff have. They have no idea of the stress they can cause with those letters. Perhaps they are on some sort of bonus scheme, so many £s everytime they can bully an ill person out of benefits.


There was evidence posted earlier in this thread, or a similar one, that showed the dwp were being given reduction targets to meet I.e. the different offices were being set numbers to reduce benefits by. This was hotly denied for a bit, then grudgingly admitted with the usual backpedalling.

Would not be surprised if more senior dwp people receive some form of performance bonus.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 28, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> There was evidence posted earlier in this thread, or a similar one, that showed the dwp were being given reduction targets to meet I.e. the different offices were being set numbers to reduce benefits by. This was hotly denied for a bit, then grudgingly admitted with the usual backpedalling.
> 
> Would not be surprised if more senior dwp people receive some form of performance bonus.


I wonder if they get extra points for harrassing quadriplegics.


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## equationgirl (Jun 28, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I wonder if they get extra points for harrassing quadriplegics.


Wouldn't be at all surprised,  some of the situations reported in the national media certainly indicate they are equal opportunity harassers.


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## tufty79 (Jun 28, 2015)

Passenger said:


> well i had my interview for PIP, got 16 points i got 20 points  a year ago and i`m worse
> i can hardly walk,i`m in pain  but the nasty ATOS people, who are so two faced
> tried stich me up on the points, im becoming an expert at this ...hopefully I
> can resolve it with a phone interview  i had last thursday i really hope the dwp have
> more common sense  and award me the points i need.


Best of luck xx


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## passenger (Jun 28, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> Best of luck xx


thanks, trust me its not been easy 
i broke my leg in 7 places inc tibia and fibia and had to where a 
metal frame with pins in it called an lazarus frame still in pain cant work


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 28, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks, trust me its not been easy
> i broke my leg in 7 places inc tibia and fibia and had to where a
> metal frame with pins in it called an lazarus frame still in pain cant work


ow! I'm sorry to hear that.


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## equationgirl (Jun 28, 2015)

Best of luck passenger hope it goes OK.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Grrrh! makes me wonder what sort of training or experience those job centre staff have. They have no idea of the stress they can cause with those letters. Perhaps they are on some sort of bonus scheme, so many £s everytime they can bully an ill person out of benefits.



It's a bit more insidious than that. Most front-line "advisors" are micro-managed, right down to being set "targets" that the DWP refuse to acknowledge as targets for sending out "invitations" for work-related interviews, and for sanctioning claimants who don't toe the line. If you don't meet the targets, your boss disciplines you, and within a short period you find yourself on the other side of the desk.
It's all totally fucked up.


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## passenger (Jun 29, 2015)

That`s so true, my back to work lot, tell me all sorts of things
would not say to much but nice rewards wait for them if not
there down the road  two year contracts says it all


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

The vermin are planning to abolish the WRAG.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33347511


> Plans to scrap part of the UK's main sickness benefit are being considered, a leaked Whitehall paper suggests.
> 
> It describes the Employment and Support Allowance as a "passive" benefit which does not "incentivise" people to find a job, and proposes abolishing the work-related activity group (WRAG) category.
> 
> If scrapped, weekly payments would drop nearly £30 from £102.15, bringing it in line with Jobseeker's Allowance.



I'm in the WRAG because they have, incorrectly, stuck me there instead of in the Support Group. I have ME, Fibromyalgia and Osteoarthritis following 144 weeks of Interferon punishment. I'm also clinically depressed. This is really going to help isn't it?


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

Advice please. 
Should I ask for a new ESA 50 or a PIP application first? I'm shitting myself here, looks like they're planning to cut Housing Benefit as well and we need every penny we can get. I'm physically and mentally fucked and if I have to start all this job seeking shit there is a very high possibility that I will kill one of those fucking JCP cunts and that's not just idle Urbspiel. Fuck the vermin, fuck the DWP and fuck the PCS as well.


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## wtfftw (Jul 2, 2015)

I don't know Libertad   fucking anal prolapses the lot of them. It's not happened yet tho. 


Thanks for the support on the other page. My assessor called in sick* so my medical is postponed. I'm hoping I get to wait another year or so (which is how long it's been since I filled in the ib50 out whichever the questionnaire is).



*yep.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Advice please.
> Should I ask for a new ESA 50 or a PIP application first? I'm shitting myself here, looks like they're planning to cut Housing Benefit as well and we need every penny we can get. I'm physically and mentally fucked and if I have to start all this job seeking shit there is a very high possibility that I will kill one of those fucking JCP cunts and that's not just idle Urbspiel. Fuck the vermin, fuck the DWP and fuck the PCS as well.



Get a new ESA50 *and* a PIP application form (but only do the PIP form if you don't already have a DLA award). The forms cover a lot of the same ground, and the DWP *will* cross-reference them to "fact-check" your claims, so applying for both at the same time reduces the possibility of them finding contradictions (which they *will* hunt for) in the applications. Also, it'll probably be slightly less nerve-wrenching/psychologically costly to do both at the same time.   
As ever, any help and/or support you need with the paperwork, just ask.


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## RedDragon (Jul 2, 2015)

Both my husband and I had been put into to support group ESA, when we married the claim became a joint one in his name, when he died on the 1st of June the claim was shut down and I was told to make a new ESA claim; right from scratch needing to supply sick notes awaiting an assessment. And the added delight of being called in this afternoon for a 'return to work' interview.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks both. I've calmed down a bit now.  My cortisol levels must have gone through the roof, I'll pay for that later eh ViolentPanda? I've try to stay clear of the DWP because any contact with them enrages me so much.
I've never appealed my WRAG decision because I thought that they might stick me on JSA and my last DLA award has lapsed because I was too ill to handle filling out another form. DWP win win eh? Cunts. 

My claim is not about the money, we're used to not having any. I just want them to leave me alone especially now as we're engaged in a major battle with Children's Services over their lack of support regarding a two year old that we've given a home to under a Special Guardianship Order.  I just can't fight on too many fronts.

I've got a letter from the Rheumatologist confirming my diagnosis for the diseases outlined above and a letter from the Podiatrist confirming that I have an inoperable broken Navicular in my left foot, an old tree surgery injury which makes walking incredibly painful. My left hand, I'm left-handed, is fucked through arthritis and so writing is nigh on impossible and I've had an arthroscopy on my right knee though both my knees are fucked. I've got arthritis in both hands and all my major joints are riddled with it really.
I can't get any pain relief because I've got Stevens-Johnson Syndrome and I'm allergic to NSAIDs. Co-Codamol in the quantity that I'd need to take gives me constipation.(Too much information.)

Any part of my body that isn't suffering with arthritis is generally useless due to the ME and if that isn't affecting me then the Fibromyalgia gets the rest. Tbh it's impossible for me to tell where one condition stops and the next starts. Then there's the depression, symptomatic and inherent in the diseases, constant exhaustion, lack of sleep, memory lapses and problems with vision, hearing and concentration.

Should I be/am I likely to be put in the Support Group? I seriously doubt it, these are all somatic manifestations so far as the DWP are concerned aren't they? I reckon we're fucked and we'll have problems paying the rent soon let alone anything else. Angry? You bet your fucking life I'm angry.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> Both my husband and I had been put into to support group ESA, when we married the claim became a joint one in his name, when he died on the 1st of June the claim was shut down and I was told to make a new ESA claim; right from scratch needing to supply sick notes awaiting an assessment. And the added delight of being called in this afternoon for a 'return to work' interview.



Ffs.   I feel for you mate. More strength in your general direction.


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## Greebo (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> <snip> Angry? You bet your fucking life I'm angry.


Angry? Good, at least that's energy turned outwards. 

As for the cocodamol, if you haven't already done so, I recommend asking for the same dosage as you've already tried, but in an effervescent base (this can be prescribed).  It tastes vile, but more of it gets taken up before it hits your gut, so there's less constipation (as ViolentPanda will tell you).  If you've already tried it, and it still didn't suit you, you have my sympathy.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 2, 2015)

BTW Libertad VP will get back to you shortly, he's just taking his tablets.  Physically you're in a visibly worse state than him, so you should get support group ESA, but that's a big "should".  It's really not about diagnosis, it's about the impact it has on your life.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks both. I've calmed down a bit now.  My cortisol levels must have gone through the roof, I'll pay for that later eh ViolentPanda? I've try to stay clear of the DWP because any contact with them enrages me so much.



Understandable. I've known many claimants with the same problem, or the linked one of contact causing or aggravating depression.



> I've never appealed my WRAG decision because I thought that they might stick me on JSA and my last DLA award has lapsed because I was too ill to handle filling out another form. DWP win win eh? Cunts.



Unfortunately, as I've said on this thread and similar many times before, the DWP rely on people either fearing a worse decision, or being too exhausted.
This just makes me more bloody-minded about helping anyone I can to get what they're entitled to.



> My claim is not about the money, we're used to not having any. I just want them to leave me alone especially now as we're engaged in a major battle with Children's Services over their lack of support regarding a two year old that we've given a home to under a Special Guardianship Order.  I just can't fight on too many fronts.



Understood, hence the offer of any help I can give w/r/t the forms.



> I've got a letter from the Rheumatologist confirming my diagnosis for the diseases outlined above and a letter from the Podiatrist confirming that I have an inoperable broken Navicular in my left foot, an old tree surgery injury which makes walking incredibly painful. My left hand, I'm left-handed, is fucked through arthritis and so writing is nigh on impossible and I've had an arthroscopy on my right knee though both my knees are fucked. I've got arthritis in both hands and all my major joints are riddled with it really.



Possibly a daft question, but is it possible to get referred for a full-body MRI? One of the strongest pieces of evidence Greebo and I deployed for my dad's attendance allowance claim was an MRI analysis that basically detailed *all *his problems, from head to toe. It was pretty exhaustive w/r/t musculo-skeletal damage, and having everything on the one report made it a lot  less refutable* than the individual reports from different consultants that we had.

*i.e. not actually refutable, but by DWP standards - so, spelling mistakes etc.



> I can't get any pain relief because I've got Stevens-Johnson Syndrome and I'm allergic to NSAIDs. Co-Codamol in the quantity that I'd need to take gives me constipation.(Too much information.)



Solid co-codamol, or soluble?



> Any part of my body that isn't suffering with arthritis is generally useless due to the ME and if that isn't affecting me then the Fibromyalgia gets the rest. Tbh it's impossible for me to tell where one condition stops and the next starts. Then there's the depression, symptomatic and inherent in the diseases, constant exhaustion, lack of sleep, memory lapses and problems with vision, hearing and concentration.



Worth getting a consult on your memory/concentration issues, if only because (due to my own experience) a "memory clinic" consultation will look for organic physiological causes as well as psychological and medicinal causes, and design coping strategies for you that aren't a panacea, but do help somewhat. My own memory is still about 20% below the standard baseline (and improvement from 30% below), and I still get bouts of really annoying word-blindness, but it doesn't freak me out the way it used to.   



> Should I be/am I likely to be put in the Support Group?



Should you be? Yes. On the basis of your physical arthritic issues alone, you should have scored the requisite 15 points.
Are you likely to be put in the support group?
IME it all depends on how you word what you write on the form. It's the hardest part because you have to make sure you leave no ambiguity, and sometimes that means writing exhaustively about the effects of a particular issue.
Let's take for example your foot:
It's not enough to talk about what the actual issue is, about the pain and about any treatment. You have to tie it into your other issues, so "as I also have severely arthritic knees (as detailed in Q...), walking, already painful from the get-go, becomes almost impossible due to the added pain from and mobility impairment to my knees. I cannot walk or stand for ANY length of time without pain. I likewise cannot sit for ANY length of time without pain. It is constant, and exacerbation of pain levels cause me physical and cognitive fatigue over and above what my medication and other conditions already cause".
It's hard labour, but you don't have to go it alone.	 
My last ESA50 contained (IIRC) about 15 additional pages of info, not including any medical reports.



> I seriously doubt it, these are all somatic manifestations so far as the DWP are concerned aren't they? I reckon we're fucked and we'll have problems paying the rent soon let alone anything else. Angry? You bet your fucking life I'm angry.



The DWP can claim your symptoms to be somatic manifestations as much as they like. Unless they can prove that in your individual case there is no other possible or probable cause (which there are - multiple ones) then their claims are just so many beer farts.

I'm pleased you're angry, though. Anger is good, as long as it's directed at those who deserve it. Anger gives you some strength to fight back[/quote]


----------



## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks both. I've calmed down a bit now.  My cortisol levels must have gone through the roof, I'll pay for that later eh ViolentPanda? I've try to stay clear of the DWP because any contact with them enrages me so much.
> I've never appealed my WRAG decision because I thought that they might stick me on JSA and my last DLA award has lapsed because I was too ill to handle filling out another form. DWP win win eh? Cunts.
> 
> My claim is not about the money, we're used to not having any. I just want them to leave me alone especially now as we're engaged in a major battle with Children's Services over their lack of support regarding a two year old that we've given a home to under a Special Guardianship Order.  I just can't fight on too many fronts.
> ...




if you want help with forms, we can do. 

main thing now is not only to have the diagnosies, but a record of the way they impact on your life. it isn't about how ill you are but about how you explain this. 

1. diary. we do a big book of loopy. every time he does something utterly barking and dangerous, we write it down. but you need to talk about impact of symptoms, impact of treatment (or lack thereof), plus all the crazy from memory loss. write it all down. particularly any time there was any witnesses. report stuff to your gp so they can write it down and record it in letters. cause then it actualy happened according to the papertrail.

2. if you have a cooperative gp/consultant, then demand recorded home assessments. because they won't bother doing them. they will work on the info on your forms and that tends to go in your favour. and it certainly will do when you've explained each and every detail of everything. you're making them assess you on the evidence, not on an assessment where they have a computer program that will diagnose you with a mild case of amputation. if you go that route, let us do a bit of research. we can then find out exactly what your doc needs to write to achieve this. cause ti's different for eveyone. if you're loopy, making yourself sound like someone they don't want to be in the same room as is a great route. 

3. the forms - they won't give you enough space. get everything separately. and i mean everything. reference to consultant's letters, side effects of meds and directly to the conditions themselves. i think minnie wrote 17 pages for her BF's. this can be written for you. eg, you can visit or you can skype me if you want a scribe for all this. 

but we can help. that's a royal WE, cause there's people on this thread that can help, or potential in person help from the two of us. (cause IDK if youd want that, or if it's do-able to get to yours on public transport. you know you're welcome to bring this stuff down to us if you want/can, sure i've said where we live)

you don't have to do this on your own. cause we fucking hate this shower of shit and everyone who gets what they are entitled to rather than a load of bullshit is a small victory.


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## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> The DWP can claim your symptoms to be somatic manifestations as much as they like. Unless they can prove that in your individual case there is no other possible or probable cause (which there are - multiple ones) then their claims are just so many beer farts.




yep.

this is where the referencing comes in. any side effects of any meds, any uncommon symptoms of any condition, the effect of untreated pain. as many of your symptoms as possible related direcly to a bit of paper that says they are part of this condition. then for each and every symptom, describe the impact on you. 

and 'in addition to all my broken bits, i'm going fucking crazy from the pain and lack of sleep' is additional evidence, not something they can write off. especially if you have or can create a papertrail on it.


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## Celyn (Jul 2, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks, trust me its not been easy
> i broke my leg in 7 places inc tibia and fibia and had to where a
> metal frame with pins in it called an lazarus frame still in pain cant work



Yuck.  That's horrible.  I bet the swine love that "Lazarus" idea, though.


----------



## passenger (Jul 2, 2015)

Celyn said:


> Yuck.  That's horrible.  I bet the swine love that "Lazarus" idea, though.


it was like torture, for 8 months i had at least 20 plus infections
i was on really high dose antibiotics for 5 months i did well to
keep my leg never again !... so you would think getting money from the dwp
would be easy no chance


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## scifisam (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad, I got put in the support group due to symptoms almost exactly the same as yours. Following the above on here such as insisting on a recording probably helped. 

I'm nearly done with the DLA reclaim form; it's taken six weeks to fill in so far, partly because I can't write well enough to do it myself so have to wait for help. 

Photocopied all my supporting evidence today, 66 pages of it. :-D Drown the bastards in paperwork!


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Ffs.   I feel for you mate. More strength in your general direction.


They terminated the interview due to my level of distress and really couldn't apologies enough for calling me in - but seemingly the rules are if both partners are in the ESA support group, should the main claimant die their widow/er has start a fresh claim and go through the whole process  again from scratch.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> They terminated the interview due to my level of distress and really couldn't apologies enough for calling me in - but seemingly the rules are if both partners are in the ESA support group, should the main claimant die their widow/er has start a fresh claim and go through the whole process  again from scratch.



 They really are a bunch of shits aren't they.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

Thank you Greebo and ViolentPanda, toggle, scifisam .
I'm on 30mg/500mg Codeine Phosphate/Paracetomol tablets and I'm invariably up to my 8 a day limit without much appreciable pain relief and that will always lead to crippling contipation if I take that dose for two days running. I will ask for a soluble version next time I see my GP.
I know that Tramadol is sometimes offered but I've been there in the past and don't want to be taking that poison again.

Does anyone have any thoughts on Amitriptyline or any other Tricyclic?

As a general strategy perhaps I should leave asking for a new ESA50 until I'm asked to attend an assessment. I've read somewhere that they can't ask you to attend without a new ESA50 if the current one is over two years old, which it is. Atm I have a telephone interview every six months with the disability advisor at the JCP. She's sympathetic and thinks that I should be in the Support Group anyway. I'm happy with this arrangement but I shouldn't think that she'll last much longer.

If I fill in an application for DLA/PIP then it will act as supporting evidence of my disability and I'll be able to C&P/modify bits of it to go in the ESA50. The other thing about the DLA form is that you're allowed longer to fill it in. Does this sound like a plan?


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## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

have you had a referal to a pain management consultant? equationgirl has expereince of referals and i suspect she would agree that you need to be offered other options by someone who specialises in knowing and applying these options.

You can cut and paste parts of those forms, but you need to remember that there is a slightly different set of criteria for the two benefits. you need to look at how your conditions fit the criteria, and make sure you spell it out in fairly simple terms.

eg, if you're applying for dla, the simplest way onto lower rate care is being unable to reliably and safely prepare and cook a meal. if i was referencing to that criteria, i'd discuss the pain in your hands causing problems with preperation, IDK your situation personally, but i'd focus on things like being able to grip and safely use a knife, being unable to sit or stand while doing this without pain, being unable to safely lift a pan of water to drain cooked food, and memory loss causing potentially dangerous situations because you forget you've left the oven on (himself did have neighbours calling the fire brigade because of this)

for the ESA, i'd be looking more at the condition of your hands preventing you from doing common work tasks, the pain causing difficulties in using transport , and memory problems meaning you coudn't drive (?) or reliably use public transport.

the underlying conditions are the same, but the discussion of impact is different. you don't need proof of all the impact issues, but any condition you're referencing, eg, the arthritis, the memory failures need to be covered in official paperwork. every time you mention these you reference that document.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thank you Greebo and ViolentPanda, toggle, scifisam .
> I'm on 30mg/500mg Codeine Phosphate/Paracetomol tablets and I'm invariably up to my 8 a day limit without much appreciable pain relief and that will always lead to crippling contipation if I take that dose for two days running. I will ask for a soluble version next time I see my GP.



To put it in simple terms, if you're taking the 30/500 tablets, about 20-40% of the codeine is absorbed through your stomach. The rest (or part of it) is absorbed through your intestines, hence the effect on peristalsis and the inevitable constipation.
With the effervescent version, you take up 60-85% of the codeine in your stomach, leaving a lot less to cause problems in your tripes. I've been taking it for over 15 years, and I rarely have even passing constipation, thank fuck!



> I know that Tramadol is sometimes offered but I've been there in the past and don't want to be taking that poison again.



It's shit. It works for a lucky few (I'm one of them, so's my dad), but way too many people react badly too it.



> Does anyone have any thoughts on Amitriptyline or any other Tricyclic?



Used for neurogenic pain relief, it's got some good research behind it. I know people who've benefited from it, and it's getting a record as a better analgesic than it was an a/d. Worth trying if you're not ready to roll the dice on neurontin etc.   



> As a general strategy perhaps I should leave asking for a new ESA50 until I'm asked to attend an assessment. I've read somewhere that they can't ask you to attend without a new ESA50 if the current one is over two years old, which it is. Atm I have a telephone interview every six months with the disability advisor at the JCP. She's sympathetic and thinks that I should be in the Support Group anyway. I'm happy with this arrangement but I shouldn't think that she'll last much longer.



Do what's best for you. If your current course is less hassle, stay with it until you can no longer do so. 



> If I fill in an application for DLA/PIP then it will act as supporting evidence of my disability and I'll be able to C&P/modify bits of it to go in the ESA50. The other thing about the DLA form is that you're allowed longer to fill it in. Does this sound like a plan?



Yup. It sounds like a plan!
It's PIP now, I believe. DLA is totally off the table, and when people like me, with an "indefinite" DLA award get re-tested/reassessed, we'll be spun onto PIP too.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

scifisam said:


> Photocopied all my supporting evidence today, 66 pages of it. :-D Drown the bastards in paperwork!



I can't emphasise strongly enough: Lots of paperwork means that sometimes a decision-maker will take one look at your fat folder and "pass" you, because going through your file will take them hours when they're expected to assess 2-3 files an hour.
I downloaded and printed off the patient info sheets for all my medications, and highlighted any side-effect I suffered, cross-referenced to where I'd mentioned that side-effect in my answers. It's undoubtedly time-consuming and exhausting, but it works more often than it doesn't.


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## scifisam (Jul 2, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can't emphasise strongly enough: Lots of paperwork means that sometimes a decision-maker will take one look at your fat folder and "pass" you, because going through your file will take them hours when they're expected to assess 2-3 files an hour.
> I downloaded and printed off the patient info sheets for all my medications, and highlighted any side-effect I suffered, cross-referenced to where I'd mentioned that side-effect in my answers. It's undoubtedly time-consuming and exhausting, but it works more often than it doesn't.



Oooh, good idea. I'm going to copy it.

I am slightly irked that I'm having to fill in this DLA form even though when PIP gets introduced in this area I'll have to go through it all again (BUT with the questions all slightly reworded so that copying and pasting isn't possible), and that could be just a few months away.


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## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

scifisam said:


> Oooh, good idea. I'm going to copy it.



we did the same.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

scifisam said:


> Oooh, good idea. I'm going to copy it.
> 
> I am slightly irked that I'm having to fill in this DLA form even though when PIP gets introduced in this area I'll have to go through it all again (BUT with the questions all slightly reworded so that copying and pasting isn't possible), and that could be just a few months away.



Yes, yet another piece of fuckery intended to make claimants throw up their hands in despair and give up, murderous DWP cunts!


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## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad 

http://dpac.uk.net/2013/04/what-people-need-to-know-about-atos-assessments/

that you need assistance filling in forms is something you need to note. because doing it yourself and producing a coherent case counts against you

note the list at the end on assessment of neuro symptoms/conditions. anything on the lists makes assessment more awkward for them.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

toggle said:


> we did the same.



Yep, reams of it. I'll start a collection.  We're going to have to buy a new printer but it looks as if it'll be worth it.


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## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

toggle I'll read it now. Cheers.


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## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

http://www.whywaitforever.com/dwpatoscontract.html#MEDICAL-CONDITIONS

these are the lists of conditions that they will look at home assessment for. Now, as you can see autistic spectrum disorders are on list 1, so it's easier for us to have the assessment go away. but if you have supportive health professionals, then you can make a case for home assessment for lists 2 and 3. 

you need to make sure your memory failures are documented, and demand a recording. make your own as well. I can lend you a voice recorder if it gets that far. but the more awkward you make this for them, the more likely they will assess on the paperwork only.


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## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad toggle remembers correctly, I have gone down the pain clinic route and quite frankly the man I saw worked miracles. More importantly he didn't dismiss my pain and treated me like a human being. I have arthritis in 4 vertebrae and initially had steroid injections, but they aren't permanent. Then he did a minor operation cutting the damaged nerves, which had basically got stuck in the 'pain' position. Unfortunately the worst nerves couldn't be cut so I am on oxycontin,  Codydramol and pregabalin,  a combination which keeps me functioning and the pain mostly manageable. 

I'd recommend asking your gp for a referral to your nearest pain clinic as soon as you are able, as unfortunately some have a long waiting list. Other areas have better set ups, so the wait is only a few weeks.

Also, I am more than happy to help with form prep etc. One thing I have done for several people on this thread is the medicine and 
side effect information gathering Greebo and ViolentPanda talked about. Send me a list of your meds by
 pm and I can do the rest.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad in terms of the Amyltriptiline (totally wrong spelling hah), I know a couple of people with fibro who found it immensely helpful in managing their symptoms.  Know someone for whom it didn't really do anything at all for too, so swings and roundabouts I guess really.


----------



## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

for the record, making a secret recording of an assessment is not illegal as long as this is for your own use only. using it as evidence is a grey area. the last time I looked up the legal side on that, i found evidence to say that employment tribunals had allowed illicit recordings to be used as evidence, because the wrongfulness of that use of illicit recordings was less than the wrongfulness of the behavior it was revealing.

but, be aware that if it goes to appeal, the tribunal won't give much of a fuck about the recording. they will go back to the evidence. primarily, the stuff you've provided on the paperwork for assessment. this is one of the reasons to keep a photocopy of it all. so if the dwp loose the lot, you can provide a copy to the tribunal.

I know it seems shitty to be talking about appeals before you've even started the paperwork, and our aim is obviously to make sure it never gets that far, but it is worth being prepared for the long fight. and knowing that you have provided enough evidence that if the dwp are cunts, that you can take their assessment bullocks and stick it right up their colective arses at tribunal. tribunals don't like the dwp, they don't trust the dwp. as much as they are allowed, they will be on your side.

and as equationgirl  won't blow her own trumpet, so i'll blow it for her. her postgrad studies were in mathamatical modelling of the results of medical research studies. and she's fucking awesome.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 2, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> Both my husband and I had been put into to support group ESA, when we married the claim became a joint one in his name, when he died on the 1st of June the claim was shut down and I was told to make a new ESA claim; right from scratch needing to supply sick notes awaiting an assessment. And the added delight of being called in this afternoon for a 'return to work' interview.


This makes me so angry - is this what they do to everybody? When I was campaigning for equal relationship rights I never imagined this.

What a despicable, pedantic, shitty thing to put any newly bereaved person through. 

Please keep going, wishing you the strength to deal with this. x


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2015)

Just to confirm that toggle has correctly reported the tribunal position on illicit recordings correctly. The tribunal decision came out of an employment law cade whereby to demonstrate some fairly discriminatory behaviour the defendant made an illicit recording and submitted it in evidence.  The tribunal ruled that whilst the illicit recording had been made in a distasteful manner, that of itself was not a reason to deny it's use as evidence. They did however reject the evidence and it was nearly 40 hours long and suggested the evidence be severely edited iirc. I wrote a more accurate summary of the case at the time it was reported in case it was helpful for this thread.

I would also contend that as you cannot take notes and have memory issues, a recording of any meeting you have to have is essential and a reasonable adjustment under the equality act 2010. Failure to allow a recording to be made could well be disability discrimination.


----------



## tufty79 (Jul 2, 2015)

Re: recordings of the non-covert sort....  atos (at least) will provide recording equipment for ESA, you just need to arrange it with them. They won't for PIP - if you want to record it & need to borrow equipment give us a shout Libertad

again, with PIP you need to let them know in advance that you want to record it.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 2, 2015)

Thanks equationgirl I think that I'm going to try some different drugs but when I've settled into the best that I can access (not sold on the Gabapentin Pregablin route ViolentPanda  ) then I'll take you up on your kind offer.

I'm hoping that there are no contraindications between Mirtazapine and Amitriptyline. I'll definitely ask for a referral to the pain clinic, I can't handle this for much longer it's as if I feel that I need some time off(if that makes sense). Tbh the only drug that I've found that helps me sleep, dulls pain, aids lucidity and lifts my spirits is illegal.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Yep, reams of it. I'll start a collection.  We're going to have to buy a new printer but it looks as if it'll be worth it.



Making sure I kept hard copies of everything made me damn glad I bought a cheap monochrome laser printer, rather than an inkjet!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks equationgirl I think that I'm going to try some different drugs but when I've settled into the best that I can access (not sold on the Gabapentin Pregablin route ViolentPanda  ) then I'll take you up on your kind offer.
> 
> I'm hoping that there are no contraindications between Mirtazapine and Amitriptyline. I'll definitely ask for a referral to the pain clinic, I can't handle this for much longer it's as if I feel that I need some time off(if that makes sense). Tbh the only drug that I've found that helps me sleep, dulls pain, aids lucidity and lifts my spirits is illegal.


Pain is relentless. It's draining, depressing and exhausting, not to mention limiting what you can do. I'm not surprised you want some time off.


----------



## 8115 (Jul 2, 2015)

ESA is a passive benefit because everyone on it is basically too sick to work. Calling it "works related" or cutting people's money won't take away from this fact, it will just plunge more people into poverty and worse illness.

I literally cannot wait to hear this budget. I have a feeling it could be a real case of, "go on, tell me another one".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks equationgirl I think that I'm going to try some different drugs but when I've settled into the best that I can access (not sold on the Gabapentin Pregablin route ViolentPanda  ) then I'll take you up on your kind offer.
> 
> I'm hoping that there are no contraindications between Mirtazapine and Amitriptyline. I'll definitely ask for a referral to the pain clinic, I can't handle this for much longer it's as if I feel that I need some time off(if that makes sense). Tbh the only drug that I've found that helps me sleep, dulls pain, aids lucidity and lifts my spirits is illegal.



Mirtazapine has helped my dad a lot. We had to do a fair bit of checking re: contraindications, as he takes about a dozen prescription medications, but it lifted him out of a year-long downward-spiralling depression, and has made him feel "normal" again. There don't seem to be any contraindications between Mirtazapine and Amitriptyline listed, btw.


----------



## toggle (Jul 2, 2015)

equationgirl, i believe you've also expereinced the pain management specialists taking a different attitude towards providing medication than gps, eg, not trying to reduce meds, just because a patient is on opiates, but accepting that patients with long term pain need long term meds


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 2, 2015)

8115 said:


> ESA is a passive benefit because everyone on it is basically too sick to work. Calling it "works related" or cutting people's money won't take away from this fact, it will just plunge more people into poverty and worse illness.
> 
> I literally cannot wait to hear this budget. I have a feeling it could be a real case of, "go on, tell me another one".



Some fuckwad was chuntering about ESA having "failed", as it has barely reduced the claimant count.
To me this proves that the state's assumptions about exaggerated claims, fraud etc were exactly the sort of ideologically-motivated cack disability activists analysed them to be.
To fuckwads, though, it's only "proof" that the assault on disabled people wasn't aggressive enough.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2015)

toggle said:


> equationgirl, i believe you've also expereinced the pain management specialists taking a different attitude towards providing medication than gps, eg, not trying to reduce meds, just because a patient is on opiates, but accepting that patients with long term pain need long term meds


Aye, I saw my pain management specialist about 18 months ago as my gp at the time wanted me to stop the oxycontin and the Codydramol. Pain specialist told me there had been a study released investigating the risk of death vs morphine equivalent,  and it showed that the risk increased the more was taken.

This caused a bit of a panic amongst some medics and they tried to take people off drugs when actually the risk was fairly small if the morphine equivalent was actually calculated. For example, for 5mg oxy and 8 30/500 Codydramol a day my morphine equivalent is in the region of 40 mg morphine per day. The study determined caution was only really required at much higher levels, around 180 mg per day iirc.

My specialist was not concerned and said in real terms the associated risk was low, therefore there was no need to stop taking them.

ViolentPanda has also reported reluctance amongst GPs to have patients on opiates. I'm basically on them because I cannot take certain classes of meds due to kidney problems.  I was on coproxamol for a decade with no side effects, when that was withdrawn there were not really many other options open. I tried tramadol but had nightmares so bad I just couldn't keep taking it. Plus it did fuck all for the pain.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2015)

toggle that was a very kind sneaky edit you did. Thank you for the compliment


----------



## toggle (Jul 3, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Just to confirm that toggle has correctly reported the tribunal position on illicit recordings correctly. The tribunal decision came out of an employment law cade whereby to demonstrate some fairly discriminatory behaviour the defendant made an illicit recording and submitted it in evidence.  The tribunal ruled that whilst the illicit recording had been made in a distasteful manner, that of itself was not a reason to deny it's use as evidence. They did however reject the evidence and it was nearly 40 hours long and suggested the evidence be severely edited iirc. I wrote a more accurate summary of the case at the time it was reported in case it was helpful for this thread.
> 
> I would also contend that as you cannot take notes and have memory issues, a recording of any meeting you have to have is essential and a reasonable adjustment under the equality act 2010. Failure to allow a recording to be made could well be disability discrimination.




which i believe ended up as 'you can present evidence if we think it's justifiable, but don't expect anyone to wade through 40 hours of untranscribed audio - make it accessible first'


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 3, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> This makes me so angry - is this what they do to everybody? When I was campaigning for equal relationship rights I never imagined this.
> 
> What a despicable, pedantic, shitty thing to put any newly bereaved person through.
> 
> Please keep going, wishing you the strength to deal with this. x


When I went to register his death, the 'Registrar' left the room to speak with her supervisor and came back to tell me I was the first husband/husband death she'd recorded - wow wee, everyday's a school day - but it left me feeling awfully queer.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 3, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> When I went to register his death, the 'Registrar' left the room to speak with her supervisor and came back to tell me I was the first husband/husband death she'd recorded - wow wee, everyday's a school day - but it left me feeling awfully queer.


(((RedDragon))) The novelty of it must have gone to her head - I can't imagine somebody like that usually telling the person who was registering a death that "you're the (special number)th person of that type we've had here".  She may have meant well, but I bet it stung a bit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

RedDragon she sounds very insensitive. Yes, you may have been the first husband/husband relationship she had dealt with, but she didn't need to tell you that at such a difficult time.

Much love to you x x ((()))


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

i just had my phone appeal turned down, leaving me on 16 points, 4 short of what i ineed  

and what i was awarded a year ago.  The reason for this is that i did not tell the person who done the appeal

over the phone, witch parts of the decision i disagree with ,but i did in a 20 minute chat over the phone and 

a covering letter, i really find this very  hard to take in,as i thought i had done everything the correct way.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> i just had my phone appeal turned down, leaving me on 16 points, 4 short of what i ineed
> 
> and what i was awarded a year ago.  The reason for this is that i did not tell the person who done the appeal
> 
> ...


You did do everything right. Remember that claims are being denied, simply becausethey can not because they are right to do so.

Were you told what happens next?

Please do not give up yet.


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> You did do everything right. Remember that claims are being denied, simply becausethey can not because they are right to do so.
> 
> Were you told what happens next?
> 
> Please do not give up yet.



well i am going to ring monday and ask why they ignored what i said on the phone interview
and my covering letter, if that fails a tribunal or get a job with my bad leg,witch is going to be hard 

thanks for your concern


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 4, 2015)

I would like to express my sympathy and solidarity with everyone subjected to this system.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2015)

Fuckin hell passenger that's shit.


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Fuckin hell passenger that's shit.


thanks, its not just me, it like there delibreitly stopping me get the point`s 2 short on 
one and 1 point the other.


----------



## superfly101 (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks, its not just me, it like there delibreitly stopping me get the point`s 2 short on
> one and 1 point the other.


What benefit?


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> What benefit?


pip


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

paging Greebo ViolentPanda (if they're about)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

The P.I.P. claim form is a bag of shite. The questions it asks about your disability are so generalised that you're entirely dependent on the quality of the professional medical evidence you submit, and whether you're canny enough to send in any personal supporting material dealing with the minutiae of your condition. Basically, the claim form sets applicants up for these phone interviews where the "decision maker" is working from a script that asks leading questions designed to elicit particular answers. Unless you're prepped up by having studied "Benefits & Work"'s PIP claim guide or similar, then your answers will almost always fall short - This is one of those situations where I'm grateful for being partially deaf - they can't compel me to do phone appeals, but I (as a deaf person) can compel them to grant me written appeals because for them not to do so is straightforward disability discrimination.
Also, people get gipped because they hear "oh, telephone appeals are quicker", but they're not really. They don't make the progress of a claim from start to finish any faster for anyone who disputes the "judgement" from a phone appeal. They're a convenience and a filtering tool for the _arschlocher_ running the PIP scam.


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

Thank you Violentpanda ,really don`t know what to say or do 
but this at least explains why there being so unhelpful.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> Thank you Violentpanda ,really don`t know what to say or do
> but this at least explains why there being so unhelpful.


Yes, it's really not you, it's them. The game is stacked against you from the start.

Do you have the benefits and work guide?


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, it's really not you, it's them. The game is stacked against you from the start.
> 
> Do you have the benefits and work guide?


no i dont do i need one ? ive looked a lot up on the net


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> no i dont do i need one ? ive looked a lot up on the net


It might be helpful, that's all. You have to pay a small amount to get if iirc but i am happy to do that for you, or anyone who needs it.


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> It might be helpful, that's all. You have to pay a small amount to get if iirc but i am happy to do that for you, or anyone who needs it.


if you can would be nice how much how do i pay ?
im cheering my self up by watching inherent vice


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> if you can would be nice how much how do i pay ?


I can't do it tonight but will do so tomorrow.  Is that OK?


----------



## passenger (Jul 4, 2015)

thanks very much great.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 4, 2015)

passenger said:


> Thank you Violentpanda ,really don`t know what to say or do
> but this at least explains why there being so unhelpful.


 I haven't got anything useful to say - but I wish you well and hope you have the strength to fight them. x




equationgirl said:


> It might be helpful, that's all. You have to pay a small amount to get if iirc but i am happy to do that for you, or anyone who needs it.


you are really nice.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I haven't got anything useful to say - but I wish you well and hope you have the strength to fight them. x
> 
> 
> 
> you are really nice.


Least I can do to help, plus it will also help others if they need it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Least I can do to help, plus it will also help others if they need it.



Hang fire. I think my subscription is still active.

I've got the most recent PIP claim and appeal guides. If passenger PMs me an e-mail address, I'll forward them to him.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hang fire. I think my subscription is still active.
> 
> I've got the most recent PIP claim and appeal guides. If passenger PMs me an e-mail address, I'll forward them to him.


you are nice too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> you are nice too.



Please don't tell everyone! It's taken years for me to build my "moody irascible bastard" reputation!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Please don't tell everyone! It's taken years for me to build my "moody irascible bastard" reputation!


Don't worry no one will guess - everyone else still thinks your a miserable grumpy old man.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hang fire. I think my subscription is still active.
> 
> I've got the most recent PIP claim and appeal guides. If passenger PMs me an e-mail address, I'll forward them to him.


Give me a shout if your subscription isn't still active.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 4, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Don't worry no one will guess - everyone else still thinks your a miserable grumpy old man.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Don't worry no one will guess - everyone else still thinks your a miserable grumpy old man.



Thank fuck for that! (wipes fear-sweat from brow)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Give me a shout if your subscription isn't still active.



It is, thanks.


----------



## dishevelled (Jul 4, 2015)

Am I allowed to say interesting thread... or will I get another warning point?


----------



## toggle (Jul 4, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Hang fire. I think my subscription is still active.
> 
> I've got the most recent PIP claim and appeal guides. If passenger PMs me an e-mail address, I'll forward them to him.



Libertad could probably use those as well


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 4, 2015)

toggle said:


> Libertad could probably use those as well



Good point.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2015)

toggle said:


> Libertad could probably use those as well





ViolentPanda said:


> Good point.



Probably for the best  Thanks citizens.


----------



## toggle (Jul 4, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Probably for the best  Thanks citizens.



don't know how much you've seen this discussed before,k but benefits and work charg a small access fee because they employ professionals to write their stuff. it's got the reputation of being the best site for these guides on how to fill in the forms. As I said, it isn't what's wrong with you, but how you say it. YOou drown them in as much officially produced evidence as you have, but when it comes to answering the questions, you spell it out in excrutiating detail, and make it easy to see how what you're saying relates to the criteria they have. Your decision makers won't have much of a clue. Some fuss a while back about how they were advised to google conditions to know what the claimant's conditions were. So it's spelling it out for a numpty. the guides tell you how to spell everything out so they can see exactly how you relate to their guidelines, and that means it's more likely you get an a2ward. 

ViolentPanda - can you send him the ESA ones as well?


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2015)

I've changed my email addies VP so I'll PM you in the morning with a new contact address.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 4, 2015)

Great support here Urbz, as  always.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 5, 2015)

Sorry, I was either busy off line or out last night (not ignoring you lot), but seeing as VP's got the B&W subscription it's all good.


----------



## passenger (Jul 5, 2015)

Great stuff Violentpanda that is so helpful its like gold dust to me
i  quit clearly have been robbed of 4 points and by the looks of it i am
entitled to more points i will call them tomorrow with notes in hand 

p.s sorry and you Equationgirl


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 5, 2015)

passenger said:


> Great stuff Violentpanda that is so helpful its like gold dust to me
> i  quit clearly have been robbed of 4 points and by the looks of it i am
> entitled to more points i will call them tomorrow with notes in hand
> 
> p.s sorry and you Equationgirl


No worries,  ViolentPanda got the stuff. I just offered to! I hope you are feeling a bit more positive now you have the help guides.


----------



## passenger (Jul 6, 2015)

well they say i have to go to tribunal there is no second chance
with phone interviews even if its there fault  (i wont take that lying down)  it 
takes from
3-6 months to appeal ,paper work in the post.


----------



## 8115 (Jul 6, 2015)

Good luck. With ESA many many people won at tribunal. I suspect it'll be the same for PIP.


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 6, 2015)

I'm dreading Wednesday, what's the chances of these despicable twats reducing payments for those on ESA but not in  the 'support group' to  a rediculous £73 a week?


----------



## 8115 (Jul 6, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> I'm dreading Wednesday, what's the chances of these despicable twats reducing payments for those on ESA but not in  the 'support group' to  a rediculous £73 a week?


I don't think they will, if it helps. Fingers crossed for you.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> well they say i have to go to tribunal there is no second chance
> with phone interviews even if its there fault  (i wont take that lying down)  it
> takes from
> 3-6 months to appeal ,paper work in the post.


The overturn rate at tribunal is very high, and they appear very fair.


----------



## passenger (Jul 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> The overturn rate at tribunal is very high, and they appear very fair.


nice to hear can`t understand why the  dwp are being so vile and nasty 
it really starts to make me miss trust them, thank god for Violentpandas 
e mail, i would really have lost heart, plus the support on here


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> nice to hear can`t understand why the  dwp are being so vile and nasty
> it really starts to make me miss trust them, thank god for Violentpandas
> e mail, i would really have lost heart, plus the support on here


Because sadly many of the staff, not all- some are some good people trying to do their best still - have bought into the lies that people on benefits are scroungers, or are afraid for their own jobs.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 6, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> I'm dreading Wednesday, what's the chances of these despicable twats reducing payments for those on ESA but not in  the 'support group' to  a rediculous £73 a week?


You qualified for support group before - and from what you have said that hasn't changed. Please hold on to that.
Have you got all the same sort of evidence as last time? 
Plus now of course there has the stress of your partners illness, death and your bereavement - has this affected your health? Have to seen the doctor about this - if so take details of appointments, changes to meds or whatever. Be sure to take proof of your husbands death, too. 

I'm wishing you well, please let us know how it goes. x


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> well they say i have to go to tribunal there is no second chance
> with phone interviews even if its there fault  (i wont take that lying down)  it
> takes from
> 3-6 months to appeal ,paper work in the post.


please keep fighting. Wishing you strength x


----------



## toggle (Jul 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> well they say i have to go to tribunal there is no second chance
> with phone interviews even if its there fault  (i wont take that lying down)  it
> takes from
> 3-6 months to appeal ,paper work in the post.



assuming the appeal will be similar in nature to the DLA appeal I attended, they will want to be quite focussed. they will have very little interest in listening to anyhting about how the interview you just had was bollocks, their focus will be on whether you meet the criteria for the benefit, and that will be your condition right now, not at the time of the hearing.

get some help going through your paperwork again. cause you've probably missed stuff, cause you're used to it. do a diary thing for a week or so- what you did, what you tried and couldn't do, pain levels, other symptoms, side effects. evidence a 'typical day'


----------



## Greebo (Jul 6, 2015)

RedDragon and passenger what friendofdorothy said - keep telling yourselves that you've got every reason to believe you're as sick etc as you've said, you're not fakes, and your claims are worth pushing for.  You don't have to do this on your own.


----------



## scifisam (Jul 6, 2015)

I can't remember whether I have to send original documents or not! And if I do will they send them back?


----------



## RedDragon (Jul 6, 2015)

scifisam said:


> I can't remember whether I have to send original documents or not! And if I do will they send them back?


Take them to your local job centre and get copies of the originals authorised (an office stamp & signature) , ask for a pre-paid envelope and post the copies off yourself - much better than depending on the internal post system


----------



## StoneRoad (Jul 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> nice to hear can`t understand why the  dwp are being so vile and nasty
> it really starts to make me miss trust them, thank god for Violentpandas
> e mail, i would really have lost heart, plus the support on here



Without being *too much* of a cynic, I suspect that part of this (DWP/staff attitude) is trying to make claiming/appealing so stressful and downright difficult that people just give up.
"Look. less claims, so we're spending less and those people who stopped claiming must have been scrounging/didn't really need the benefit"
The answer for that is NOT to give up !!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2015)

passenger said:


> nice to hear can`t understand why the  dwp are being so vile and nasty



Back in the day (we're talking the '90s here), the "decision maker" had discretion. They could give your case another listen, and class it as a reconsideration.
Now the system is tightened up so decision-makers have *no* discretion, so claimants are forced to this "mandatory reconsideration" route that ends up more often than not with a tribunal, and about two-thirds of the time with a tribunal win. It's madness, and very expensive madness, at that.


----------



## passenger (Jul 7, 2015)

just got a letter from Doctors asking to list my daily living 
activitys and how my health affects  me from atos  but i am 
going to tribunal ?


----------



## Greebo (Jul 7, 2015)

passenger said:


> just got a letter from Doctors asking to list my daily living
> activitys and how my health affects  me from atos  but i am
> going to tribunal ?


The DWP has probably asked your Dr about you and, seeing as they don't see you all of every day, want you to answer the question, instead of them doing it amd getting it very wrong indeed.


----------



## passenger (Jul 7, 2015)

atos sent the letter the day before the DWP  had made there
decision I remember thinking thats odd, did not take any notice
but today got another letter from the doctors, prompting me to
reply i would ring atos but have very little phone credit its turning
into an agathar christe novel.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 7, 2015)

passenger said:


> atos sent the letter the day before the DWP  had made there
> decision I remember thinking thats odd, did not take any notice
> but today got another letter from the doctors, prompting me to
> reply i would ring atos but have very little phone credit its turning
> into an agathar christe novel.


ViolentPanda?  Come in please, when you've woken up again.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 7, 2015)

passenger said:


> just got a letter from Doctors asking to list my daily living
> activitys and how my health affects  me from atos  but i am
> going to tribunal ?



Worth listing out how your health affects your daily living activities, and include *everything*, especially the embarrassing stuff about how hard it is to manoeuvre with your bad leg even in a large bathroom or toilet etc, etc, and how the pain knackers you so bad that you find yourself falling asleep at the drop of a hat, how you can't stand or sit comfortably for long - all of that.
If your doctor says "well you haven't reported that to me", just use the old comeback "if I reported every problem it caused me to you, I'd be seeing you at least once a week, and you'd be getting pissed off with me".


----------



## passenger (Jul 7, 2015)

got ya, thanks will do that ,well i`m in the mood 
just did a 4 page cover letter for pip appeal thanks again. VP


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## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2015)

passenger if you need a hand with anything this week please pm me, I'm on holiday from work this week so happy to help if you want any.


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## passenger (Jul 7, 2015)

thanks might do that


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## Libertad (Jul 7, 2015)

Great generosity of time and support here Urbz. Solidarity.


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## Greebo (Jul 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Great generosity of time and support here Urbz. Solidarity.


A win for one is a win for all, as it can help to change case law.


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## passenger (Jul 10, 2015)

well got a really good covering  letter nearly sorted out with help from
people from here, my appeal claim form is on its way ,atos do not need me to
wright to my doctor so  thats cleard up, i can rest in peace for this weekend


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## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

Incredible how the arrival of just one envelope can turn your life upside down.

I've received an appointment for a WCA assessment with a "healthcare professional" on Monday 17th August. I haven't asked for either a new ESA50 or a PIP form, as discussed upthread I was going to apply for PIP reasoning that it would support my claim for ESA but I didn't because I hate the form filling so much. It's the having to confront my own "frailties" that makes me die a little death, that and the pain involved in the writing.

Can I put these fuckers off on the grounds that I haven't completed an ESA50 for years and that my symptoms are now different since I finished treatment and that it's the treatment itself that has exacerbated my conditions?
I have supporting evidence from a Rheumatoligist and a Podiatrist but not of my depression. I had an initial appointment with our local Psych services, Outlook South West, it was a sort of triage appointment but I've heard nothing back about an appt. to see a counsellor and it's been five weeks.

Here's a link to my latest moan a couple of pages back:



Libertad said:


> Thanks both. I've calmed down a bit now.  My cortisol levels must have gone through the roof, I'll pay for that later eh ViolentPanda? I've try to stay clear of the DWP because any contact with them enrages me so much.
> I've never appealed my WRAG decision because I thought that they might stick me on JSA and my last DLA award has lapsed because I was too ill to handle filling out another form. DWP win win eh? Cunts.
> 
> My claim is not about the money, we're used to not having any. I just want them to leave me alone especially now as we're engaged in a major battle with Children's Services over their lack of support regarding a two year old that we've given a home to under a Special Guardianship Order.  I just can't fight on too many fronts.
> ...


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## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

Somebody somewhere else has told me:

"They cannot do that. HCP must have an up to date ESA 50 and the responsibility to send one out is Maxiumus/ATOS and not DWP. Up to you to get the appointment cancelled until they send out the ESA 50." 

Is this correct? Considering that the scheduled WCA is in two weeks when is the latest that I can cancel the appt? We can't afford to get sanctioned for this, it would destroy everything, we don't have any money for emergencies or anything. I'm really shitting this.


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## tufty79 (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't know, but happy to ask somewhere like Fightback on facebook (they're pretty good with all this) on your behalf if you're not on there.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2015)

paging ViolentPanda 

It does seem rather odd Libertad normally they're not so reticent in sending out forms, and anecdotally people have been waiting months after sending back forms for the appointments. 

First, I'd double-check that the correct information is on the letter I.e. It's definitely your ni number, date of birth, even name. If it's wrong,  go ballistic at them on data protection grounds. If it makes any reference to information received,  phone immediately and ask when this information was received. 

If it's more than 12 months since you were placed in WRAG And your DLA Has lapsed somebody somewhere might have made the assumption that you are better and they're looking to sign you off.

I'd be asking them if/when they last sent the form out. Certainly they don't seem to be following their own process.

Will do some digging and report back.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2015)

http://www.welfareweekly.com/mental...ied-chance-to-complete-sickness-benefit-form/

Libertad Maximus appear to have form for this, assuming it's maximus not atos doing the assessment. Benefits and work pressed for answers and the best they could get was that misguided concession to help people out who might have difficulty completing the form. Personally,  I think it's a way to stack the deck more against claimants.

I'd tell them you're having a relapse and ask for it to be rescheduled. Then get hold of a form and complete it, and send it back to them before the assessment. There's a link to the form in the article I linked to in this post. Also if I can help, pm me x x


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## Greebo (Aug 4, 2015)

VP is currently dealing with a well-meaning numpty at the door (I'm taking the evening off from such people) but I'll ask him to get back to urban when he's free.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2015)

Greebo said:


> VP is currently dealing with a well-meaning numpty at the door (I'm taking the evening off from such people) but I'll ask him to get back to urban when he's free.


No worries,  cheers Greebo x


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## superfly101 (Aug 4, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Somebody somewhere else has told me:
> 
> "They cannot do that. HCP must have an up to date ESA 50 and the responsibility to send one out is Maxiumus/ATOS and not DWP. Up to you to get the appointment cancelled until they send out the ESA 50."
> 
> Is this correct? Considering that the scheduled WCA is in two weeks when is the latest that I can cancel the appt? We can't afford to get sanctioned for this, it would destroy everything, we don't have any money for emergencies or anything. I'm really shitting this.



No that is completely wrong!

An ESA50 is part of the evidence gathering process but..... not necessary for a decision to be made, if a decision can be made based on other evidence. 

It all depends on your circumstances?


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> No that is completely wrong!
> 
> An ESA50 is part of the evidence gathering process but..... not necessary for a decision to be made, if a decision can be made based on other evidence.
> 
> It all depends on your circumstances?


But if the chance to gather evidence is denied....


----------



## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I don't know, but happy to ask somewhere like Fightback on facebook (they're pretty good with all this) on your behalf if you're not on there.



Yeah please tufty, I've been forced off FB cos of the prove your name thing.


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## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> First, I'd double-check that the correct information is on the letter I.e. It's definitely your ni number, date of birth, even name. If it's wrong, go ballistic at them on data protection grounds. If it makes any reference to information received, phone immediately and ask when this information was received.





equationgirl said:


> Maximus appear to have form for this, assuming it's maximus not atos doing the assessment.



All the personal info is correct and it's from "Centre for Health and Disability Assessments", that's Maximus' sneaky title I've found out.


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## Libertad (Aug 4, 2015)

I don't know whether I'm doing the right thing but after having looked at DPAC and Benefits and Work I'm going to ring them in the morning and cancel the appointment they've sent me and ask them to send me an ESA50.
I'll quote the _Health and Disability Assessment Services Service Requirement_’ (HDAS – Schedule 2.1 (Service Requirements) back at them.

I found it here: http://dpac.uk.net/2015/07/response-to-maximus-esa50-and-the-wcas-impact-on-claimants/

Now that Maximarse are in full swing perhaps we should ask the mods to amend the thread title so that other unfortunates can find it.


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## toggle (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I don't know whether I'm doing the right thing but after having looked at DPAC and Benefits and Work I'm going to ring them in the morning and cancel the appointment they've sent me and ask them to send me an ESA50.
> I'll quote the _Health and Disability Assessment Services Service Requirement_’ (HDAS – Schedule 2.1 (Service Requirements) back at them.
> 
> I found it here: http://dpac.uk.net/2015/07/response-to-maximus-esa50-and-the-wcas-impact-on-claimants/
> ...



yell when you want form filling help.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

I really think that I might have to take you up on your offer toggle 
The timing's terrible though, aren't you due a holiday? I'll see what happens after the phone call.


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## toggle (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I really think that I might have to take you up on your offer toggle
> The timing's terrible though, aren't you due a holiday? I'll see what happens after the phone call.



i'm taking time off work, not a holiday as such,. not getting up for work in the morning to go clean bogs is fine. having the time off work to help a mate is better. 

i do have a shift tomorrow afternoon, but i am literally doing fuck all on thursday.


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## toggle (Aug 5, 2015)

fuck, wish it didn't look like 2 and a half hours on the bus up your way thoutgh.

ah, train halfway. that I can do.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

toggle said:


> fuck, wish it didn't look like 2 and a half hours on the bus up your way thoutgh.
> 
> ah, train halfway. that I can do.



No need, I'll come to you if that's what we settle on.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

Whoah, here we go. 
I rang CHAD, the Centre for Health and Disability Assessments or Maximus or whatever they want to call themselves today.
I informed them that it would be a good idea to cancel the WCA on 17th August as the Health Care Professional would not have a current ESA50 to work from. I was told that they have an ESA50 from 2013, I said that that is now out of date as my condition has changed. I was told that Maximus does not send out ESA50 and that I should ring the DWP.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

I rang my local JCP and asked to speak to the disability advisor that I normally speak to. She's off for the school hols (fair enough) but the person I did speak to was really confused about the situation. He thought that Maximus send out the forms. Now I am shitting it, Maximus may have just cancelled my appt. and then send me another appt. (still without an ESA50) and when I have to cancel that one that will be a sanctionable act.

You're only allowed to cancel your appt once.


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## superfly101 (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad said:


> You're only allowed to cancel your appt once.



No you can cancel as many times as you like but after the 1st you will be asked to show good cause for the 2nd and any further cancellations. This is DWP internal guidance not law and there is no single cancellation regulation.

Now that is if you cancel.... if they cancel they can do it as many times as they like! Which if you talk to them right you can use to your advantage.

I was up to 6 whilst I argued with ATOS about them providing a taxi. They even sent a new appointment for the exact same time and date of the last cancelled appointment which was an interesting conversation to say the least.

I'd check;
1, that the appointment really has been cancelled with both the DWP and Maximus - record the calls.
2, Fire off an official complaint to Maximus, the DWP and your MP asking for an explanation of how they feel that a 2 year old ESA50 is; a, still valid and b, not sending one is part of a fair and comprehensive assessment system now?


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## superfly101 (Aug 5, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> But if the chance to gather evidence is denied....



Granted but it depends of individual circumstances as I stated!

The no ESA50 fits in with the issuing of a DS1500 or where enough evidence has been gathered for a decision to be made on application.  So is a good thing.

I this case  they can fuck off. It's also very worrying that this is happening!


----------



## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> No you can cancel as many times as you like but after the 1st you will be asked to show good cause for the 2nd and any further cancellations. This is DWP internal guidance not law and there is no single cancellation regulation.
> 
> Now that is if you cancel.... if they cancel they can do it as many times as they like! Which if you talk to them right you can use to your advantage.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that. My condition is significantly worse than in 2013 and I have consultants' letters to prove it.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

The JCP rang back.

Them: "No it's fine. Maximus are just catching up."
Me: "But the ESA50 is out of date and I'm significantly worse."
Them: "Just explain it to them, it'll be fine."
Me: "What about my new supporting evidence?"
Them: "You might as well take that along. Take anything you want really."

I'm getting stitched up here aren't I.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

I'm not getting anywhere with Maximus. They keep batting me back with "DWP, DWP".
I'm thinking of taking a different tack. I haven't got the time or the inclination to download an ESA50 and fill it in in the 12 days I've got left and our printer's stopped working anyway so what if I go ahead with the assessment as planned, get awarded zero points or whatever and then appeal on the grounds that they wouldn't let me submit a new form?
I can't find any meaningful advice online so fuck it eh?


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks for that. My condition is significantly worse than in 2013 and I have consultants' letters to prove it.


Sorry your condition is worse, but Im glad you have the letters you need to prove it. 



Libertad said:


> The JCP rang back.
> 
> Them: "No it's fine. Maximus are just catching up."
> Me: "But the ESA50 is out of date and I'm significantly worse."
> ...


That sounds like catch 22. I wouldn't trust them. Had they not agreed to put off the interview?

If you have to go, take copies of every single thing that you've received since 2013.  Have you got someone to go with you to help?

I hope your health allows you the strength to get though this x


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## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2015)

Absolutely take someone with you to the assessment.  Maximus do seem to be not sending out forms as a line of policy and while superfly101 is saying in some cases that may not be warranted ( and I agree, as some might be stable with no deterioration or improvement ever expected) to take this policy with everyone is clearly wrong.

I'm going to drop a line to the mirror and the record about this, I'm sure they'd be interested in the new policy.


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## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad am also off tomorrow,  happy to assist by pm with anything x


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

Thanks friendofdorothy and equationgirl.


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## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Thanks friendofdorothy and equationgirl.


You're welcome lovey, going through this process is shit for everybody that has x x


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2015)

I've just got this advice from someone, I suggest that anyone else finding themselves in the same position as me follows it:

_"The Disability Adviser is talking bollocks given a significant deterioration and the fact that a new ESA 50 is a legal obligation. 

You can take stuff with you on the day but they won't look at it. The job of the HCP is to fill in their software form. No more. No less. The job of the decision maker is to weigh all the evidence from all sources and make the decision. Send any new evidence direct to ESA now and add a covering letter saying that you were denied your legal right to a new ESA 50 and plan on taking the same evidence to your HCP meeting. When the HCP ignores your evidence you warn them DWP already have it and expect the HCP to consider it and weight it. You then tell DWP you took it; told them that and they declined to look at it. Totally knackers DWP argument that they can't consider your evidence cos HCP hasn't seen it and hasn't weighted it. It's an argument they try at tribunals and it's being kicked every time they try it. 

Amusingly, sending your evidence to ESA now may trigger a review ahead of the HCP meeting and may even trigger a request for Maximus to... send out a new ESA 50!!!

The only alternative is to make a formal complaint to Maximus and copy your MP and DWP in. Formal complaints equal nasty statistics."_


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## toggle (Aug 5, 2015)

if you have the energy, i'd do it all

pm me an address, and a printed form will be in the post to you tomorrow. I need to post some stuff that i've brought home from work anyway. 

trigger a complaint at both dwp and maximus. 

write to whichever tory twonk is your mp. 

letters can be written and posted to you for your signature, that you can then send off to the apropriate arsehole's addy


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## zippyRN (Aug 6, 2015)

Celyn said:


> Yuck.  That's horrible.  I bet the swine love that "Lazarus" idea, though.



 an Ilizarov frame  perhaps , as i can;t  find any reference to  'lazarus' as athe name of a limb reconstruction  system  ... 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ilizarov_apparatus

and for the person with the issues over co-codamol ,  macrogol  (movicol / laxido)  is a useful constipation preventer  - works better than lactulose from what i've seen in practice.


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## Libertad (Aug 6, 2015)

zippyRN Neither you nor your advice are welcome on this thread.


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## zippyRN (Aug 6, 2015)

Libertad said:


> zippyRN Neither you nor your advice are welcome on this thread.


 regardless of it's accuracy  and  clinical  relevancy ?


----------



## Libertad (Aug 6, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> regardless of it's accuracy  and  clinical  relevancy ?



This thread is a support resource. You are not a support resource, you're the sort of person who would kick my stick out from under me.

Now do one eh?


----------



## superfly101 (Aug 6, 2015)

Look just put zippy on ignore or don't respond. They post for the response by you!

Zippys' posts are designed to disrupt the thread/conversations going on,  by being "controversial".

So... replying just encourages them to post more!

As Grand Master Flash said "Don't do it baby!"


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> regardless of it's accuracy  and  clinical  relevancy ?


Yes. You're not welcome. This thread is about providing support to people going through the healthcare assessment process, which can be extremely stressful. No-one needs you adding to that stress.

Quite frankly,  you've been so disruptive and nasty on numerous threads relating to disability that you will not get the chance to behave like that on this one.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Look just put zippy on ignore or don't respond. They post for the response by you!
> 
> Zippys' posts are designed to disrupt the thread/conversations going on,  by being "controversial".
> 
> ...


This thread can be read by people who lurk as well as those who post. Nobody needs to see his posts, and if they're not challenged then he has the potential to cause a lot of stress to someone who is then deterred from posting for support.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> This thread can be read by people who lurk as well as those who post. Nobody needs to see his posts, and if they're not challenged then he has the potential to cause a lot of stress to someone who is then deterred from posting for support.


This thread is also publicly readable.  Something he posts could be the first impression somebody gets of urban (the more sheltered and supportive threads are locked away, for very good reasons).


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## superfly101 (Aug 6, 2015)

Yes and yes so......

Rather than turn this into we spend the next 20 pages going oh zippy!

Somebody says how it is; we all like that post and we carry on as if that post never happened?


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 6, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> This thread can be read by people who lurk as well as those who post. Nobody needs to see his posts, and if they're not challenged then he has the potential to cause a lot of stress to someone who is then deterred from posting for support.


I read this thread for about a year before I joined urban - I read hundreds of pages, and it was invaluable in helping me support someone through the Atos process. Lets keep focused here and not allow derails.


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## zippyRN (Aug 6, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I read this thread for about a year before I joined urban - I read hundreds of pages, and it was invaluable in helping me support someone through the Atos process. Lets keep focused here and not allow derails.



 they like to divert  things and make personal attacks rather than face  that their own world view and opinions might be validly challenged


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## equationgirl (Aug 6, 2015)

zippyRN said:


> they like to divert  things and make personal attacks rather than face  that their own world view and opinions might be validly challenged


Post reported. This is a support thread, not for general discussion and not for trying to provoke fights.


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## FridgeMagnet (Aug 7, 2015)

FTR I applied the same warning points that were applied yesterday by mango5, again. This has pushed zippyRN over the limit into a ban until the points expire. Which will be a month iirc as that's the default for warning points.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> FTR I applied the same warning points that were applied yesterday by mango5, again. This has pushed zippyRN over the limit into a ban until the points expire. Which will be a month iirc as that's the default for warning points.


Thank you, it's appreciated. This support thread is too important to be wrecked.


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## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

Should letters be sent "signed for" or "registered"? I've confused myself now, but "registered" is £6.70 or something.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Should letters be sent "signed for" or "registered"? I've confused myself now, but "registered" is £6.70 or something.


I think its the same thing isn't it? I usually ask advise in the post office, it used to be a few pounds on top of the postage.  You just need to be sure they have received it and can't claim they didn't get it.  Make sure you have copies of everything you post just in case.  Good luck.

prices here --	 http://www.royalmail.com/price-finder


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## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> I think its the same thing isn't it? I usually ask advise in the post office, it used to be a few pounds on top of the postage.  You just need to be sure they have received it and can't claim they didn't get it.  Make sure you have copies of everything you post just in case.  Good luck.
> 
> prices here --	 http://www.royalmail.com/price-finder



Ah, signed for is £1.73,  I can pay that.


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## toggle (Aug 7, 2015)

FridgeMagnet said:


> FTR I applied the same warning points that were applied yesterday by mango5, again. This has pushed zippyRN over the limit into a ban until the points expire. Which will be a month iirc as that's the default for warning points.



 if it hasn't been done already, would you mind applying a thread ban onto the long running active discussion threads on this issue before the ban runs out.


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## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

Rang ESA at DWP. Spoke to a good bloke, he understood the situation and seemed to sympathise. He said that he would send me an ESA50 if I wanted. When I explained that I only had just over a week to fill it in before the medical and that it wouldn't be long enough he "advised" me that it might be to my advantage to have the medical based on an out of date ESA50 but that I should take my new evidence with me. He also said "You know that you can ask for your medical to be recorded don't you?"
PCS member possibly. 

I rang Maximarse and requested that the medical be recorded, they have added a note to my file. Whether this means that they will have recording equipment I don't know. What should I do if they don't have the recording equipment? If I decline the medical I would imagine I'd get a sanction wouldn't I?


----------



## toggle (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Rang ESA at DWP. Spoke to a good bloke, he understood the situation and seemed to sympathise. He said that he would send me an ESA50 if I wanted. When I explained that I only had just over a week to fill it in before the medical and that it wouldn't be long enough he "advised" me that it might be to my advantage to have the medical based on an out of date ESA50 but that I should take my new evidence with me. He also said "You know that you can ask for your medical to be recorded don't you?"
> PCS member possibly.
> 
> I rang Maximarse and requested that the medical be recorded, they have added a note to my file. Whether this means that they will have recording equipment I don't know. What should I do if they don't have the recording equipment? If I decline the medical I would imagine I'd get a sanction wouldn't I?



do you have a phone or other device that can do a silent recording? 

if you do, you can make your own, but....

the actual value of recordings is overemphasized. the only real points of use of these is to keep them honest (if they know there's a recorder running) or to prove misconduct. if you need to go to appeal, then the tribunal won't care about the process, they will base a decision on your medical evidence. 


take along everything you can. if you want help with explaining the problems caused by your current treatment, then equationgirl is the best person to help with that IMO. Get evidence of side effects of the treatment, and highlight every one that you have experienced and note it's severity and it's effect on your life.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> <snip>I rang Maximarse and requested that the medical be recorded, they have added a note to my file. Whether this means that they will have recording equipment I don't know. What should I do if they don't have the recording equipment? If I decline the medical I would imagine I'd get a sanction wouldn't I?


Last winter,  ViolentPanda  requested (in advance) his ESA assessment to be recorded.  Turned up and no recording equipment or staff to use it.  Refused to be assessed without it.  He'll tell you what happened next.  He wasn't sanctioned.


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## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> do you have a phone or other device that can do a silent recording?
> 
> if you do, you can make your own, but....
> 
> ...



Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.


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## toggle (Aug 7, 2015)

list. gimme a sec.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2015)

What happened next was them abjectly backing down. They knew that failure to record would get them a breach of equalities legislation (my medication-caused short-term memory problems mean that recording is a "reasonable adaptation" for them to make), so they re-scheduled me. As the re-scheduling was their responsibility, no sanction could arise. You don't need to decline, just emphasise that failure to record will result in your right to equal treatment being breached. That usually tightens their sphincters up.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> What happened next was them abjectly backing down. They knew that failure to record would get them a breach of equalities legislation (my medication-caused short-term memory problems mean that recording is a "reasonable adaptation" for them to make), so they re-scheduled me. As the re-scheduling was their responsibility, no sanction could arise. You don't need to decline, just emphasise that failure to record will result in your right to equal treatment being breached. That usually tightens their sphincters up.



 That would apply to me too as my short term memory is shot away.


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## toggle (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
> The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.



http://dpac.uk.net/2013/04/what-people-need-to-know-about-atos-assessments/

that's the list.

ViolentPanda, can you answer whether his conditions are listed?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
> The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.



They're *not allowed* to poke and prod you. They're there to fill in the boxes on the software. 
As for having a neuro see you, they've got about a dozen working for them UK-wide, so... In fact they've got a really minimal number of actual doctors working for them, as compared to their roll of "healthcare professionals".


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 7, 2015)

Just spoke to the lovely people at fightback, and they've said the following.. 

Under the equalities act 2010, you should have the right to submit an esa50 before your assessment - their failure to comply with this (after it's been specifically requested and they have been made aware of issues completing it) would count as failure to provide reasonable adjustments. 
(EDIT Libertad - she seemed to think that this would only apply if you have a MH condition in with anything else - eg depression, anxiety may mean you need reasonable ajustments to give you time to get help filling the forms in - might be with clarifying this)  

make them aware of this, and of any difficulties this means you have with completing the forms - especially if ypu need assistance to do it. The dwp cannot close your claim if they are aware of this info and don't make reasonable adjustments. 

They have said that maximus will let you email the esa50 to them, just depends on getting an ok member of staff to give you their email address when you phone them. 
They also suggested contacting DPAC for further resources; they (Fightback) can help work with you on your forms (and possibly attending assessments, depending where you are), but they are fully booked for the next fortnight. 

Sorry if that's a bit garbled (phone posting)  - will come back and edit if it don't make sense.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
> The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.


The dwp recently did away with the mandatory requirement for a doctor or neurologist to perform the assessment for those conditions, I'm afraid.  However you could prewarn the assessor due to the pain levels that you may uncontrollably lash out if examined in a painful manner.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> In fact they've got a really minimal number of actual doctors working for them, as compared to their roll of "healthcare professionals".


I was assessed for PIP by a paramedic


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> http://dpac.uk.net/2013/04/what-people-need-to-know-about-atos-assessments/
> 
> that's the list.
> 
> ViolentPanda, can you answer whether his conditions are listed?


List may be out of date. I had a huge argument with frumious about it a while back, and he swore blind that the DWP had updated it in a timely fashion.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 7, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I was assessed for PIP by a paramedic


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2015)

toggle said:


> http://dpac.uk.net/2013/04/what-people-need-to-know-about-atos-assessments/
> 
> that's the list.
> 
> ViolentPanda, can you answer whether his conditions are listed?



None of his conditions are listed at all, which means he's unlikely to see a doctor, and highly likely to see a nurse or a physio. CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia are contested diagnoses regardless of the fact that they have severe real-life consequences, so referring to symptoms of the conditions/their effects works well. As for osteo-arthritis, it's so common it wouldn't surprise me if they have nurses assessing people who have it.

The trusty old route of making it about observed symptoms, past consultant-grade medical opinion and whatever can be dug up in terms of medication effects etc is probably going to be necessary, as an assessment based on input only from a WCA is going to screw even a deader into going back to work, sadly.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 7, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> None of his conditions are listed at all, which means he's unlikely to see a doctor, and highly likely to see a nurse or a physio. CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia are contested diagnoses regardless of the fact that they have severe real-life consequences, so referring to symptoms of the conditions/their effects works well. As for osteo-arthritis, it's so common it wouldn't surprise me if they have nurses assessing people who have it.
> 
> The trusty old route of making it about observed symptoms, past consultant-grade medical opinion and whatever can be dug up in terms of medication effects etc is probably going to be necessary, as an assessment based on input only from a WCA is going to screw even a deader into going back to work, sadly.



Well that's cheered me up no end.   I get what you're saying though VP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Well that's cheered me up no end.   I get what you're saying though VP.



Basically I had to whack them over the head with the effects, and that was easier knowing that everything I said in there was consonant with what I'd said on the ESA50 a couple of months before.
As CFS/ME and Fibro *are* contested diagnoses though, that may work in your favour at the "decision-maker" stage, as they are included in their "Bumper Book of Medical Facts for the Feeble-Minded" that they refer to.
Try to make sure you emphasise over and over, every time the dipshit asks you a question, exactly how you're affected, and exactly how that activity has knock-on effects on other activities. bear in mind, you're doing it for posterity (i.e. the recording) as much as for the HCP. If you get knocked back, and the recording contradicts the input on the LIMA software, tribunals take a dim view.
*DO* speak slowly and clearly. Go at your pace, not theirs. They *will* try and rush you.
*DO* make vocally plain any pain you're feeling.
*DO* be careful what you say - they'll jump vigorously on any perceived contradictions between what you say, and what they have on record, even though in your case that record will be well out-of-date, and not at all reflective of your current condition.

Give 'em enough rope, and they'll hang themselves.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 7, 2015)

Libertad said:


> Something that is still bothering me is that with CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and Osteo-arthritis shouldn't it be a neurologist that examines me? equationgirl ?
> The little mind games that they will play are going to be bad enough but I am worried that if I'm being examined by someone who doesn't know what they're doing that all their prodding is going to hurt like hell and that I'm liable to lash out at them. Thinking about it, I will lash out. That's not going to go down very well is it? Without a witness there with me that's not going to look good.



I'll welcome others commenting - my experience in this direction is a couple of years old, but I don't think there's anything to say you can't take someone with you to the 'medical' if you want to.

Last time I'm aware this came up on this thread, general opinion is that it tends to make the 'health care professional' a bit more careful about taking the piss and / or lying about what you said.  

And if the someone looks reasonably outwardly respectable (I didn't go as far as suit, but dressed as if I was on the way to the office when I went with friend - they weren't to know I was in a 'freelance' phase) then they may be even less inclined to take the piss.

Is there anyone you could take with you?

If you would find assistance getting there / support (physical or emotional) necessary in view of your health condition, then the fact that you needed some assistance ought to count in your favour.  (polite questions about how you got there / how you would have reacted if the thing had been postponed at short notice etc aren't 'polite questions' - they are part of the assessment.

Likewise, while I don't think that outright advocacy on the part of a friend is expected, I did remind friend during his 'medical' of one or two health related incidents he'd forgotten about / didn't think were worth mentioning, and I wasn't told to STFU.

Hope all goes well for you.


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## equationgirl (Aug 8, 2015)

Yes. They will likely ask how your journey to the centre was. Don't just say 'fine', if it was stressful,  painful or made you anxious say so. Don't leap out of your seat enthusiastically when called.

There's also anecdotal evidence about the assessor's judging people on their appearance so be comfortable, and not too well made up. Don't get your hair done specially 

They seem to take the view that if you have made the effort to look presentable you are fit to work.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 8, 2015)

Thanks Puddy_Tat . I'll cancel my hair appointment equationgirl


----------



## passenger (Aug 12, 2015)

you guys are good ,lol you have  turned me into a mine law student 
with this stuff, reading it gives me hope and at least i know i have done all 
i can do with the help i get from here.  
*know all sing the national anthem*


----------



## Libertad (Aug 13, 2015)

I've read the following in the Benefits and Work guides and other places:



> "You can only score points for the mental health activities if the difficulties
> you have with them are caused by a mental health condition or learning difficulty, or are a direct result of treatment by a registered medical practitioner for that condition."



Also:


> "The mental function descriptors only apply if the claimant's incapability is the direct result of a specific mental illness or disablement. For example, a claimant with back pain cannot score points for a lack of mental function if s/he cannot concentrate because of his/her back pain."



So what about my anxiety, depression and mood swings? What about my problems with short-term memory, loss of concentration and attention span? These are all symptoms of my CFS/ME and Fibromyalgia and fucking real enough.
Will the health care professional be interested in all this stuff?


----------



## toggle (Aug 13, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I've read the following in the Benefits and Work guides and other places:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



if you have a diagnosis of these conditions then the symptoms of them should be taken into account. because they are listed as known symptoms of the conditions. 

it's about relating each symptom back to a diagnosed condition or a side effect of prescribed medication. 


I do know that himself's appeal weren't able to take into account his absence seizures, because he hadn't discussed them with the doctor at that point. I don't think he knew how many he was having until they asked me to describe them and their frequency. The doctor on the tribunal advised him to see his own doctor quite urgently with a very worried look on his face. despite this, they couldn't include these in their ruling because there was no papertrail.


----------



## toggle (Aug 13, 2015)

passenger said:


> you guys are good ,lol you have  turned me into a mine law student
> with this stuff, reading it gives me hope and at least i know i have done all
> i can do with the help i get from here.
> *know all sing the national anthem*



woman I volunteer with was talking about how she would fill in her paperwork. said she didn't know anyonre who could start making head or tail of any of it. so i started talking about some of the categories she would score points for off the top of my head. she's going to give me a shout when her forms come through.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 13, 2015)

Nice work, toggle.  Nobody should have to face those forms alone, not even VP does.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 13, 2015)

I just stopped someone from sending off a form and got them to get another.
Fill in the form/s as if it's your worst day and never say "sometimes" because that is taken as you can!!


----------



## passenger (Aug 13, 2015)

i got a massive bundle of paper work back from the DWP
well everything to do with my case and the reasons they don`t want me
to get the level of pip i need such ass the atos lady had dropped a bit of paper
on the floor and i picked it up, so i must be ok  i looked happy and calm
so i cant be depressed  they really are clutching at straws and lying and
they asked the tribunal to not grant me an appeal.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 13, 2015)

In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
They don't like that.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 13, 2015)

yardbird said:


> In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
> They don't like that.



I've been lucky enough to get someone from DPAC to accompany me to the medical and that'll be the first thing that they ask.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 13, 2015)

^^ bloody excellent news x


----------



## wtfftw (Aug 13, 2015)

That is great. 



I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.

Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

toggle said:


> if you have a diagnosis of these conditions then the symptoms of them should be taken into account. because they are listed as known symptoms of the conditions.
> 
> it's about relating each symptom back to a diagnosed condition or a side effect of prescribed medication.



Or, as appears to be often the case, an unfortunate synergy between a diagnosed condition and a side-effect of prescribed medication (something my neuro was happy to point out with regard to my medications affecting cognitive function).



> I do know that himself's appeal weren't able to take into account his absence seizures, because he hadn't discussed them with the doctor at that point. I don't think he knew how many he was having until they asked me to describe them and their frequency. The doctor on the tribunal advised him to see his own doctor quite urgently with a very worried look on his face. despite this, they couldn't include these in their ruling because there was no papertrail.



And the "papertrail" is all-important nowadays - it literally determines whether or not your case will be heard. I explained this to my GP when she remarked on the upsurge in DWP-related work - "you've got more shit because your patients realise they've got to report every little change in their conditions, in order to keep their records current, and because the DWP require proof of those changes, such as the forms they send you for ESA and PIP claimants". She grasped pretty much immediately that the same thing was fuelling the upsurge in requests for referrals to specialists from patients who'd previously been happy to bimble along just receiving treatment from their GP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

yardbird said:


> In the assessments I politely requested the medical professional's name and qualifications.
> They don't like that.



Nope, because it exposes the fact that over 3/4s of their "healthcare professionals" aren't doctors, and that less than half of HCPs are nurses.


----------



## tufty79 (Aug 13, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> I've just had my medical. Complete with long wait and then being made to wait again afterwards. Presumably to see if I keep up the charade? Funnily enough I had no problems continuing to be in pain and weeping.
> 
> Anyway. Done now. It can fuck off.


Ugh - fuckers 
Hope you're feeling a bit better - rest up well, and hope you get the results you need x


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> That is great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Pretty sure that when Greebo and I left the assessment centre in Balham last year, someone watched me walk from the centre about 100m to the nearest cab office. Must have been fun for them, watching someone shuffle along with two sticks at the speed of a stoned snail, pausing about every 20 steps.


----------



## Libertad (Aug 13, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> That is great.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bastards the lot of them. Hope you can get some sort of peace and quiet after this. Well battled for getting through it all.


----------



## yardbird (Aug 13, 2015)

My sister in law who is a retired GP suggested to me that it's legal grey area when you are being asked about your medical condition.
She says that if you are about to divulge confidential medical info then the medical pro MUST give you their name and qualifications if you ask.
Interesting.....


----------



## yardbird (Aug 13, 2015)

SiL is good value.
I was going to have a home assessment with requested recording.
I also said partly because of my problems I shall be bringing my SiL who is a GP.
Also that a friend would take notes to help my memory lapses.
Friend is a court stenographer so is confident that she would accurate and would sign notes.
After they had this info they chickened out.
" It is not needed that the assessment be carried out at this time"


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## tufty79 (Aug 13, 2015)

^^ that is my favourite atos story ever


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 13, 2015)

passenger said:


> i got a massive bundle of paper work back from the DWP
> well everything to do with my case and the reasons they don`t want me
> to get the level of pip i need such ass the atos lady had dropped a bit of paper
> on the floor and i picked it up, so i must be ok  i looked happy and calm
> ...


I've heard of dropping things to see if you can pick them up is a delibrate trick they do. It's almost a reflex when something is dropped to reach for it, what ever your condition - I see very old ladies go to pick up things where I work all the time - even when they are half blind and very unsteady on their feet - I'm always having to stop them by offering to do it for them.

Also note if examiners ask if you roll your own fags - it might be noted as a sign of dexterity. 



ViolentPanda said:


> Pretty sure that when Greebo and I left the assessment centre in Balham last year, someone watched me walk from the centre about 100m to the nearest cab office. Must have been fun for them, watching someone shuffle along with two sticks at the speed of a stoned snail, pausing about every 20 steps.


 They really are bastards.  I know they watched us arrive when we went for the' medical'.  The examiner 'just happened' to be in reception and greeted us and made 'small talk' about our journey - that I engaged in as a helper but not the person being assessed (who was too busy sweating/freaking out and trying to hold it together anyway) Then they made us wait in a near empty waiting room even though we were on time (that freaks her out too, she was in a right state by the time the assessment 'started')  
All of it, everything, is part of the test I understand.


----------



## toggle (Aug 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> Or, as appears to be often the case, an unfortunate synergy between a diagnosed condition and a side-effect of prescribed medication (something my neuro was happy to point out with regard to my medications affecting cognitive function).
> 
> 
> 
> And the "papertrail" is all-important nowadays - it literally determines whether or not your case will be heard. I explained this to my GP when she remarked on the upsurge in DWP-related work - "you've got more shit because your patients realise they've got to report every little change in their conditions, in order to keep their records current, and because the DWP require proof of those changes, such as the forms they send you for ESA and PIP claimants". She grasped pretty much immediately that the same thing was fuelling the upsurge in requests for referrals to specialists from patients who'd previously been happy to bimble along just receiving treatment from their GP.




and it is obviously dependent on the gp whether they are willing and able to deal with this. i can understand the frustration that leads to some refusing to change the way they handle thigns to suit the DWP, to waste their time filling in endless forms and make referals that aren't always clinically necessary. but as much as i can sympathise, that really fucks over the patients.

When himself did get the referal for the seizures, they weren't actually diagnosable to a specific cause, so the specialist actually asked whether a diagnosis letter stating they were happening and saying they were probably stress related was sufficient, and his question wasn't just because of the open endedness of his conclusions, but also because of the need for papertrails.

eta: and when I asked if i needed to pay for a letter from our GP as proof of illness for a uni deadline extension, they didn't know how to charge me and couldn't be bothered to find out.


----------



## toggle (Aug 13, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> ^^ bloody excellent news x



he's done well. I know who the bloke is and looked him up. I haven't met him, but facebook is telling me we have a bunch of very, very sound mutual friends. i may well have to pop into the next meeting that his group hold to say hi. cause they meet in the pub where my cat is a regular. 


tufty79 said:


> ^^ that is my favourite atos story ever



we got a similar result from a letter sent from himself's GP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> They really are bastards.  I know they watched us arrive when we went for the' medical'.  The examiner 'just happened' to be in reception and greeted us and made 'small talk' about our journey - that I engaged in as a helper but not the person being assessed (who was too busy sweating/freaking out and trying to hold it together anyway) Then they made us wait in a near empty waiting room even though we were on time (that freaks her out too, she was in a right state by the time the assessment 'started')
> All of it, everything, is part of the test I understand.


Back when I was suffering panic attacks and agoraphobia (late '90s), I was fortunate that I was on Incapacity Benefit, and that (at that time) they actually only employed actual members of the RCGP to examine claimants, so they usually took the excessive sweating, bug-eyes, hammering heart and shortness of breath as positive signs of a problem (think I was also helped by having to use sticks, too!). Now, especially with ESA, they just seem to think you've been to bloody stage school!


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 13, 2015)

ViolentPanda toggle passenger got a letter from the dwp saying they would ask the tribunal to dismiss his appeal, and sent him a bundle of papers outlining the reasons for the decisions they made.

Does he need to do anything next, or just wait for the tribunal date to be sent through?


----------



## Libertad (Aug 13, 2015)

(((passenger)))


----------



## toggle (Aug 13, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> ViolentPanda toggle passenger got a letter from the dwp saying they would ask the tribunal to dismiss his appeal, and sent him a bundle of papers outlining the reasons for the decisions they made.
> 
> Does he need to do anything next, or just wait for the tribunal date to be sent through?



I think this is their evidence being presented to the tribunal and it's been sent on because it is in effect a trial and you've got the right to see the evidence being presented . basically, they can't present evidence that they don't disclose to you in advance (barring a few very exceptional circumstances).


But this is your chance to have a good look at how they have supported their decision and to challenge their reasoning. YOu can then look at the places where you feel their reasoning is wrong and have some time to find evidence that supports your case. If you don't have that evidence to hand, you need to start to gather that. eg, more medical letters. and if applicable, then going through it and looking at whether you think you have a case based on their 'misunderstanding' of what you've already given them. if you do plan to gather more evidence, you need to send that to the tribunal.

but I believe that the next stage will be that you will be contacted by the tribunal service.

https://www.gov.uk/social-security-child-support-tribunal/appeal-tribunal

this is well into the grounds of giving legal advice, so comes the disclaimer that i'm not a lawyer, or other professional and it would probably be a good idea to confirm what I've summarized here with the tribunal service's helpline on that link.


and my expereince of supporting Bakunin at an appeal was that they were sympathetic, frustrated with the dwp and will most likely be looking for a reason to support the claimant. we were also warned directly that the dwp have been known to respond to loosing an appeal with an immediate reasessment and other such bollocks. he also got some advice from the doctor on the tribunal to take immediate action with regards to his current medical situation. basically, give them everything you can and they will support you if they can.

To add: the tribunal can consider new evidence, but their decision will be made on your condition at the time of the assessment. this was repeatedly reiterated to us during the hearing. descriptions of his mental state and medical condition should be made on how it was then. new evidence needs to support that, not be focussed on any changes since then. so if you wanted to add evidence, it would need to be stating that problems X and Y has been ongoing since time-before-assessment-date.

use this time to make notes of all the things you think should be discussed at the appeal. then when you are asked if you want to add anything, then you can do so. focus on the medical stuff and your daily living.don't be upset if they stop you partway through explaining a point, it's probably because they don't need further confirmation of that, and is a good sign. just move onto the next thing you think should be mentioned. but if the expereince i sat through is anything to go by, there won't be much that is not covered by their questions. your grounds for apppeal will have told them where to look, and your answers won't be doing much more than confirming your written evidence from your paperwork. 

they know you think atos are shit and the assessment is unfair, that is why you are there, and they won't be in the slightest bit interested in hearing a rant about that - that their experience of listening to claimants stories mean they can probably give better than you. atos is not on trial at your tribunal. the only mention of the assessment will be to remind you of it's date and to discuss your condition at that time.

and take your own copies of everything with you


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 13, 2015)

passenger read through the post above from toggle on how to prepare.

toggle thank you. Appreciated


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 13, 2015)

toggle is spot on, if I remember rightly from longdog's appeal last year.  As she says, it's in effect a court and the DWP are being asked to get their evidence in first.  There probably won't be anything new or startling in there; just copies of the reports from the original assessment and decision, and from 'mandatory reconsideration,' which will probably be bollocks.  Take the opportunity to go through and pick out all of the errors and disputable points, come up with ways to challenge them and be prepared to fight your corner.  You may not need to, though.  Me and doggy went into his appeal hearing last year expecting a grilling: in the event it lasted all of five minutes before the judge (who was a big, bluff northern chap and very affable in that setting, though I imagine being sentenced by him might be somewhat different!) smiled pleasantly and said they were going to allow the appeal and overturn the decision.  For all the DWP's paperwork will suggest they're going to turn up and argue the toss, they didn't on that occasion and I gather they usually don't.  In other words, although the tribunal hearing is a big deal, you may well find it's not half as formidable as they like to lead you to believe.  Good luck passenger. 

*edit* I see that zippyRN has had the heave-ho.  Good.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Aug 13, 2015)

toggle said:


> in the pub where my cat is a regular.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 13, 2015)

toggle said:


> I think this is their evidence being presented to the tribunal and it's been sent on because it is in effect a trial and you've got the right to see the evidence being presented . basically, they can't present evidence that they don't disclose to you in advance (barring a few very exceptional circumstances).
> 
> 
> But this is your chance to have a good look at how they have supported their decision and to challenge their reasoning. YOu can then look at the places where you feel their reasoning is wrong and have some time to find evidence that supports your case. If you don't have that evidence to hand, you need to start to gather that. eg, more medical letters. and if applicable, then going through it and looking at whether you think you have a case based on their 'misunderstanding' of what you've already given them. if you do plan to gather more evidence, you need to send that to the tribunal.
> ...



^^^^This!


----------



## longdog (Aug 14, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> There probably won't be anything new or startling in there...



If I recall correctly there was some entirely new flight of fantasy in the DWP's submission to the tribunal to add to the already impressive pile of fantasy flights they'd previously come up with


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 14, 2015)

longdog said:


> If I recall correctly there was some entirely new flight of fantasy in the DWP's submission to the tribunal to add to the already impressive pile of fantasy flights they'd previously come up with



Come to think of it there was, wasn't there.  Was that the bit about having installed smoke alarms, or that they already farted that one out earlier in the process?


----------



## passenger (Aug 14, 2015)

thanks guys will be on later will look at this stuff 
i have no more medical stuff you only have to look at my leg 
and i can`t wear a shoe on my right foot i have saved that as back 
up for when i go to tribunal


----------



## scifisam (Aug 14, 2015)

I just thought I should probably mention that my DLA renewal was processed quickly - only two weeks! I'm sure part of it was them looking at my mountain of evidence (it counted as a parcel at the post office ) and thinking fuck it.


----------



## toggle (Aug 14, 2015)

scifisam said:


> I just thought I should probably mention that my DLA renewal was processed quickly - only two weeks! I'm sure part of it was them looking at my mountain of evidence (it counted as a parcel at the post office ) and thinking fuck it.



does seem like there are times that when you provide a small mountain of paperwork, they decide they couldn't be bothered to try to understand it and just let it through. 

and well done.


----------



## toggle (Aug 14, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks guys will be on later will look at this stuff
> i have no more medical stuff you only have to look at my leg
> and i can`t wear a shoe on my right foot i have saved that as back
> up for when i go to tribunal



ok, then ti's about challenging the points they have given you for various things. you already know where they are wrong, i'd suspect, but make sure you know how to explain why they are wrong, and can give examples of how you fit the criteria for higher points,


----------



## toggle (Aug 14, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> ^^^^This!




high praise indeed


----------



## passenger (Aug 14, 2015)

toggle said:


> ok, then ti's about challenging the points they have given you for various things. you already know where they are wrong, i'd suspect, but make sure you know how to explain why they are wrong, and can give examples of how you fit the criteria for higher points,


eqational girl , violent panda and a little help from me sent a great letter 
doing exactly that  with the tribunal form, its a really good letter and has given 
me a great deal of hope, i feel i have done all i can at the moment but still can`t 
help worrying


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2015)

passenger said:


> eqational girl , violent panda and a little help from me sent a great letter
> doing exactly that  with the tribunal form, its a really good letter and has given
> me a great deal of hope, i feel i have done all i can at the moment but still can`t
> help worrying



It's impossible to stop worrying about something so important to your future health, so don't feel bad about not being able to completely shrug off the little niggles. Plus, you can never quite erase the grip that "brown envelope syndrome" has on all of us.


----------



## toggle (Aug 14, 2015)

passenger said:


> eqational girl , violent panda and a little help from me sent a great letter
> doing exactly that  with the tribunal form, its a really good letter and has given
> me a great deal of hope, i feel i have done all i can at the moment but still can`t
> help worrying



ok. 

one last thing

are you sure there anything new at all in the paperwork you've been sent?

as Roadkill said, the dwp can make up new bullshit at any stage so it's worth having a really good look for any new miracles they have performed. 


I know i may be pushing at old ground and spelling out the obvious here, but I also know how hard it is to think when this shit is happening to you or someone you care about. so i'll say everything.



Spoiler: how shit i felt, spoilered cause this discussion ain't focussed on me



himself had a panic attack a few days before and was having half a dozen stress related absence seizures a day for weeks (the doctor who asked about them suggested one or 2 a month when asking about them) i managed to wait until about an hour after the hearing before going wibble and then throwing up. thinking was not high on the agenda.


----------



## Roadkill (Aug 14, 2015)

Aye.  Do check for anything new, but do also check for any errors you might have missed before, and ideally get someone else to have a look over it, since two pairs of eyes are often better than one.  Much of it is no doubt down to incompetence rather than malice, but it doesn't make much difference right now: every cock-up they make is an open goal for you.


----------



## toggle (Aug 14, 2015)

Roadkill said:


> Aye.  Do check for anything new, but do also check for any errors you might have missed before, and ideally get someone else to have a look over it, since two pairs of eyes are often better than one.  Much of it is no doubt down to incompetence rather than malice, but it doesn't make much difference right now: every cock-up they make is an open goal for you.




ah yes, 'the more you know what it says, the less you actually see what is actually on the page.


----------



## passenger (Aug 15, 2015)

well got my dad going through all the paper work
at the moment, then i will have a good look again
at the massive pile of paper work and hope i
get to the appeal stage *fingers crossed*


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> well got my dad going through all the paper work
> at the moment, then i will have a good look again
> at the massive pile of paper work and hope i
> get to the appeal stage *fingers crossed*


I think you're at the appeal stage, you're waiting for the date to come through.


----------



## passenger (Aug 19, 2015)

well i got a date, for an esa medical so hopefully they will put me 
in the support group,and in september  a date for my tribunal re pip in 
october so fingers crossed should all be over in the next 
7 weeks


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 19, 2015)

passenger said:


> well i got a date, for an esa medical so hopefully they will put me
> in the support group,and in september  a date for my tribunal re pip in
> october so fingers crossed should all be over in the next
> 7 weeks


Fingers crossed.  This is all stress you don't need so I hope it's not affecting you too much.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 4, 2015)

Is the ESA support group money income assessed?


----------



## scifisam (Sep 4, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> Is the ESA support group money income assessed?



It depends. If you're currently on contributions-based ESA and you get put in the support group, then it continues to be contributions-based. Otherwise ESA stops being contributions-based after a year. 

If you're already on income-based ESA then it will continue to be income-based whether you're in the support group or WRAG.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 4, 2015)

I'm on contributions ESA just not getting any money as my year ran out and I didn't apply for income assessment as Chemistry earns. 
But I've just been put in the support group. So the letter says I'm getting money.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 4, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> I'm on contributions ESA just not getting any money as my year ran out and I didn't apply for income assessment as Chemistry earns.
> But I've just been put in the support group. So the letter says I'm getting money.



Sounds to me like you might well be OK then. Excellent.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 4, 2015)

Fucking confusing.

But yay. I think.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 4, 2015)

wtfftw said:


> Fucking confusing.
> 
> But yay. I think.



So you kept on signing on for the NI, so didn't stop the claim? I think that should mean it's contributions-based still.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 4, 2015)

scifisam said:


> So you kept on signing on for the NI, so didn't stop the claim? I think that should mean it's contributions-based still.


Yeah. I've even got recent post off them confirming I'm contributions. It's just the payments ran out. I've been consistently assessed as unfit since then and they've been doing my NI.

Benefits and Work Forum :: Topic: Continuation of payment of ESA (CB) after a year (3/4) last post of that page is the info I think I need.


I'm just having a panic that I need to give them Chemistry's details. but I think not. I've been on hold to them today (also would like to know when I'll actually get a payment) but I've given up.


----------



## passenger (Sep 6, 2015)

well date one, with the DWP tomorrow 10.30 ATOS eas medical 
trying to get into the support group, knowing my luck they will say i`m fit
to work  well chin up having an early night got to be up at 5 am


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 6, 2015)

passenger Good luck. You've done all you can.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> well date one, with the DWP tomorrow 10.30 ATOS eas medical <snip>


Best of luck for tomorrow.  

Not that luck should come into it, but justice should.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 6, 2015)

^^^ What she said, good luck passenger .


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 6, 2015)

Are you taking someone with you passenger?  Best of luck.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 6, 2015)

passenger said:


> well date one, with the DWP tomorrow 10.30 ATOS eas medical
> trying to get into the support group, knowing my luck they will say i`m fit
> to work  well chin up having an early night got to be up at 5 am


All the best. Hope it goes well for you.


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 7, 2015)

Hope it goes well passenger


----------



## spirals (Sep 7, 2015)

All the best for today Passenger!


----------



## passenger (Sep 7, 2015)

well i got there, to be told the fact i was on two crutches 
and one level up, i was asked if I could walk down 42 steps 
if there was a fire, well no i can not, sorry due to health and
safety rules we will have re book for a ground level  interview 
in Brighton on 29 th of this month


----------



## Quartz (Sep 7, 2015)

LOL! They'd clearly not bothered to read your case notes. This really does inspire confidence in them, doesn't it?


----------



## passenger (Sep 8, 2015)

Quartz said:


> LOL! They'd clearly not bothered to read your case notes. This really does inspire confidence in them, doesn't it?


i was not very happy, got me dad up early used his petrol and time
to be told that.. not to mention all the pre match nerves  like
you say, they really do not do there home work, there was a one and half
hour delay so i missed that, it was only 10 am


----------



## toggle (Sep 8, 2015)

passenger said:


> well i got there, to be told the fact i was on two crutches
> and one level up, i was asked if I could walk down 42 steps
> if there was a fire, well no i can not, sorry due to health and
> safety rules we will have re book for a ground level  interview
> in Brighton on 29 th of this month



considering the number of people that repoirt interviews taking place in non accessible buildings, I've got to wonder if they were chosen to be part of the test. if you can get to the asessment, you're obviously not disabled enough


----------



## passenger (Sep 8, 2015)

dont say that your making me paranoid


----------



## Quartz (Sep 8, 2015)

passenger said:


> dont say that your making me paranoid



Sorry, but it's been mentioned here before that your assessment actually starts even before you walk, wheel, hobble, or crawl in the front door.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2015)

Quartz said:


> Sorry, but it's been mentioned here before that your assessment actually starts even before you walk, wheel, hobble, or crawl in the front door.


That's not strictly true. There's plenty of anecdotal evidence to suggest that the assessment starts when they commence the seemingly meaningless pleasantries on arrival to the assessment centre, asking how the journey was. Also evidence suggesting that a delay may be part of the set up to monitor if people can wait patiently without adverse effects. These are tactics designed to 'prove' people are faking illness, and which are backfiring spectacularly (as shown by the overturn rate of 60% and people collapsing or having meltdowns at the assessment centres).

There is, however,  plenty of evidence to show that assessments are not being made properly, that personal bias from assessors is prevalent and that assumptions & ignorance are being made before the case file is even opened.

These people are not friends to those with disabilities - they may smile and appear pleasant and friendly, but mostly they are not to be trusted.


----------



## passenger (Sep 8, 2015)

its turning into tinker, tailor, soldier spy


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 10, 2015)

passenger said:


> i was not very happy, got me dad up early used his petrol and time
> to be told that.. not to mention all the pre match nerves  like
> you say, they really do not do there home work, there was a one and half
> hour delay so i missed that, it was only 10 am


 When I was accompanying someone to an assessment and they cancelled twice at very short notice I wrote a letter of complaint to them about my loss of earnings inconvenience, stress to the interviewee etc. They got it right the 3rd time and apologised and sent a cheque for my expenses (they obviously didn't give a toss of distress caused to the interviewee though.)

Worth your dad doing the same for his petrol, time, inconvenience.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 10, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> <snip>I wrote a letter of complaint to them about my loss of earnings inconvenience, stress to the interviewee etc. They got it right the 3rd time and apologised and sent a cheque for my expenses (they obviously didn't give a toss of distress caused to the interviewee though.)
> 
> Worth your dad doing the same for his petrol, time, inconvenience.


Absolutely.

Also, when ATOS had to cancel on VP after he'd turned up (lack of the requested recording equipment), the bloke in charge at that branch said that because it was the centre's fault, there'd be no problem getting a refund (there ought not to have been anyway since VP couldn't use public transport to get there without being completely wiped out).  The refund cheque arrived a couple of weeks later.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 11, 2015)

Makes you wonder how much they're paying out in refunds.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 11, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Makes you wonder how much they're paying out in refunds.


You just _know_ that, if you put in an FOI request to find out, it'd turn out to be "commercially confidential"...


----------



## StoneRoad (Sep 11, 2015)

perhaps if someone with "parliamentary privileges" asked the question ...


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 16, 2015)

I have an Atos home visit scheduled for Friday morning; supposing it's a "good" day, I'm feeling shit right now: other than not offering a cup of tea and tips and advice on how I get through this?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 16, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> I have an Atos home visit scheduled for Friday morning; supposing it's a "good" day, I'm feeling shit right now: other than not offering a cup of tea and tips and advice on how I get through this?


ViolentPanda ?

Do have somebody with you, partly for moral suport, and partly to help keep the ATOS person honest (under another pair of eyes and ears).

Don't hurry to the door, and don't hurry back from it either.

Don't spruce yourself up at all.

Don't try to be stoical or brave.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 16, 2015)

What ever question they ask eg 'can you do this task?' Atos tend to take the slightest hint that you can do something as proof you can just do it all the time.   Remember to say if you can only do it sometimes, or not for long, or only with help, or only on a good day (the law says you have to be able to do it reliably and repeatedly)  Tell them how it is an a really bad day.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 16, 2015)

It was the palliative care team who hustled for a home visit via their covering letter to my application (it's a PIP interview), I feel I'd be able to represent a "worse day" doing it on my own, rather than distressing my support: I have 7 different (disciplines) consultant letters; a daily intake of 30 tablets; 3 daily injections; four blood test monitoring and three creamy applications ).

But very helpful tips so far, x


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 17, 2015)

Have you asked for a recording if the interview to be made RedDragon?  If not, you could make your own using your mobile phone, just leave it on the side somewhere.

Remember these people are not your friends no matter how pleasant and friendly they appear to be.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 17, 2015)

toggle said:


> if you can get to the asessment, you're obviously not disabled enough



and if you can't then you get your benefits stopped for not attending.

like if you 'withdraw' from the assessment because you're having a heart attack (story for those who've not seen it before)

i'm running out of suitable words for this shower of cunts



RedDragon said:


> I have an Atos home visit scheduled for Friday morning; supposing it's a "good" day, I'm feeling shit right now: other than not offering a cup of tea and tips and advice on how I get through this?



others are better informed than me, but would agree about having someone with you (friend if not formal carer) if possible

if you need help or support (either physically or emotionally) to get yourself together for this, then having someone there is perfectly justifiable - and the fact that you needed that help is relevant to the assessment.

likewise if your condition / side effects of meds means that you may struggle to remember situations / incidents that your condition has caused.

(i've no idea what your situation is and i'm not asking you to go into detail - apologies if what i'm saying isn't relevant to you)

and as has been said before, it does seem that they are less likely to be shitty / lie about what you've said if you have a witness present...

hope all goes well.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2015)

Greebo said:


> ViolentPanda ?
> 
> Do have somebody with you, partly for moral suport, and partly to help keep the ATOS person honest (under another pair of eyes and ears).
> 
> ...



^^^^All of that works, as does having support with you (moral support is very helpful in making you feel less overwhelmed), and NOT letting them set the pace of the interrogation assessment. They WILL try to rush you, so you may have to deploy the "I'm a poor little dumb crip" card, or make sure that anyone who's there to support you is primed to jump in and say something along the lines of "you're overwhelming red dragon, please go slower".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> What ever question they ask eg 'can you do this task?' Atos tend to take the slightest hint that you can do something as proof you can just do it all the time.   Remember to say if you can only do it sometimes, or not for long, or only with help, or only on a good day (the law says you have to be able to do it reliably and repeatedly)  Tell them how it is an a really bad day.



Yep. They may/will get very bored with you saying "yes, I can do *****, but it immediately causes me pain/fatigue/to want to kill Tories, and I can only do it once or twice in a day before I'm in too much pain/am too fatigued/have killed enough Tories to be knackered", but that's just tough shit.

Also, a BIG thing with home visits from DWP agents (because that IS what they are, even when they're not directly retained by the DWP) is that some of them will try and get your signature on the form they're filling in, *before* they've filled it in. As your signature just happens to be an acknowledgement that you've had the contents read back to you/have read what the agent has entered, then you should ONLY  SIGN ONCE THE FORM IS COMPLETED, regardless of anything else. If you sign before completion, they basically have a licence to put whatever lying shit they like on your form.

Guess who learned the above through direct experience? And I like to think I'm pretty on the ball!!!


----------



## passenger (Sep 17, 2015)

when atos visited me in my B and B he was really good 
hinted at what i should say and i got it,(pip) if it was not for him 
i would have not have got my pip first time round, so the wolf can be kind 
to little red riding hood... but take in all the advice and you can never 
be to carefull with these people.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 17, 2015)

OK, I'm all prepped for tomorrow morning's home visit (between 9 & 11am), a little stressed so have taken a sleeping pill and set the alarm for 5.45am 

Thanks for all the useful advice; don't shower/shave, stash my mobile to record, don't answer the door too quickly, don't be rushed by their agenda and most of all remember they're being paid to undermine you.

I'm already thinking of preparing my appeal.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 17, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> OK, I'm all prepped for tomorrow morning's home visit (between 9 & 11am), a little stressed so have taken a sleeping pill and set the alarm for 5.45am
> 
> Thanks for all the useful advice; don't shower/shave, stash my mobile to record, don't answer the door too quickly, don't be rushed by their agenda and most of all remember they're being paid to undermine you.
> 
> I'm already thinking of preparing my appeal.


I'd be reluctant to even offer the assessor a cup of tea in case they assessed how I made it.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 17, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> I'd be reluctant to even offer the assessor a cup of tea in case they assessed how I made it.


I was also thinking I might be too well prepared, so will tell them a friend helped me get my paperwork together. But with a PIP review it seems I need to focus on how the limitations of body function rather then presenting documented test results.

I also had to ensure the 21 different drugs I take had this month's date on the box , I don't want them accusing me on non-copliance.


----------



## Quartz (Sep 18, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> and most of all remember they're being paid to undermine you.



This.

You have recording devices ready too?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 18, 2015)

Quartz said:


> This.
> 
> You have recording devices ready too?


Poster already said they would use something.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 18, 2015)

This was my first  PIP review, actually the visitor was very pleasant , even offered to find tissue when I cried, however, the arbitrator is the person she submits her report to - I have absolutely no idea how the meeting went and will have to wait between 4 or 8 weeks before any feedback. 

Hoever, I still have to face a ESA review - despite surrendering nine month's of sick note's


----------



## Quartz (Sep 18, 2015)

Fingers firmly crossed for you.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 19, 2015)

RedDragon All will be good it sounds so to me, with one proviso but not to worry about.
"Actually the visitor was very pleasant" 
The visitor _had _to be very pleasant.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 19, 2015)

What struck me as odd is I thought they got booted from ESA assessments, but still seem to have the monopoly on PIP reviews.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2015)

RedDragon said:


> What struck me as odd is I thought they got booted from ESA assessments, but still seem to have the monopoly on PIP reviews.


I presume the contracts are separate for each of the reviews, so although the atos one was terminated, the PIP one is still going.


----------



## tufty79 (Sep 19, 2015)

Yup.


----------



## RedDragon (Sep 19, 2015)

Non-the-less, I hope they appreciate my skill set, talent and detemination  to be taken fucking seriously when I say I need support/assistance.


----------



## passenger (Sep 25, 2015)

just a question, can any tell me what the medical term nil acute in leg means ? thanks.


----------



## yardbird (Sep 25, 2015)

I'll just post this here to shake the fear of the brown envelope!
Crips, it's got DWP on the back 
Time for re-assessment? DLA reduction 
No no.
£140 automatic discount help with your energy costs 
Can't be bad


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2015)

passenger said:


> just a question, can any tell me what the medical term nil acute in leg means ? thanks.


Is that all it says? What's the full sentence?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 25, 2015)

passenger said:


> just a question, can any tell me what the medical term nil acute in leg means ? thanks.


Epic fail of LIMA software.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 26, 2015)

yardbird said:


> I'll just post this here to shake the fear of the brown envelope!
> 
> <snip> £140 automatic discount help with your energy costs
> Can't be bad


VP got that too, and he filled it immediately.  That way, he gets to feel an extra warm glow of indignation about the slowness with which that discount claim is processed (5 months or so, last winter)!


----------



## passenger (Sep 29, 2015)

ok just had my ESA interview in the lovly town of Brighton 
strange interview, not like the normal atos thing,  going on about things from 10 yrs ago
think i did well, was very clear, on the how far can you walk bit.. can you walk
for  2 mins 3 mins about 20 - 30 meaters   no i can barley 
walk 10 -15 meters with my two crutches i have to stop due to the severe pain etc 
i really did fight my corner ..... so thanks guys and my dad for taking me 
 i can do no more


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2015)

Here's hoping for a good result passenger.


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

well have been put into JSA from ESA the fact i can bearly walk 
and a list of other things wrong they think there is a small chance 
that i can work maybe a 12 hour part time job and i need to sign on monday  wtf


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 9, 2015)

Oh ffs. I am furious on your behalf


----------



## wtfftw (Oct 9, 2015)

Fucking shambles.


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

madness even the person from the dwp was stuttering and lost for 
words plus you can`t appeal really hope i get my pip at tribunal 
this week


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> madness even the person from the dwp was stuttering and lost for
> words plus you can`t appeal really hope i get my pip at tribunal
> this week



why can't you appeal?

afaik, you have to go through the bullshit mandatory reconsideration first, but after that you can appeal.

or have i missed more bulshit changes


----------



## 8115 (Oct 9, 2015)

Why can't you appeal?


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

you cant i dont know why, well you can but they stop all your money 
the appeal can take a while and its the dwp who your appealing to, its mad


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> you cant i dont know why, well you can but they stop all your money
> the appeal can take a while and its the dwp who your appealing to, its mad


oh gawds, stopping yur moiney during mandatory recnsderation. 

this is whre you may need better advice than me, and ViolentPanda is on holiday atm, but when can you reapply?


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

i have to sign  up monday i have to get there, its 
about 20 mins on a bus witch kills my leg, i have to pay 
its all a bit mind blowing at the moment very confused and a  bit 
upset to be honest


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2015)

So sorry to hear this passenger


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> i have to sign  up monday i have to get there, its
> about 20 mins on a bus witch kills my leg, i have to pay
> its all a bit mind blowing at the moment very confused and a  bit
> upset to be honest


oh no that sounds like mission impossible! it's ridiculous!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> you cant i dont know why, well you can but they stop all your money
> the appeal can take a while and its the dwp who your appealing to, its mad


that doesn't sound right at all.


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> that doesn't sound right at all.


they said my esa stops today no offer of appeal when i asked i was told
that and a mate of mine had the same 3 weeks ago will find out more monday


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 9, 2015)

Please stop drip feeding and say exactly what was said to you! 

By whom and via what format telephone, face to face letter etc?


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 9, 2015)

Talk to adviser on Monday telling them you want a reconsideration. If it's still No you can then appeal. 

The JC+ have to take into consideration your illness/ailments and cannot throw you back into claiming JSA with all the conditionality. You have a month to get a reconsideration done, then you can appeal.


----------



## superfly101 (Oct 9, 2015)

In other news  Maximus 

*CHDA launches ESA50 Support Team *
*CHDA launches ESA50 Support Team | Health Assessment Advisory Service*

*Helpful Videos now Available*
*Helpful Videos now Available | Health Assessment Advisory Service*


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Please stop drip feeding and say exactly what was said to you!
> 
> By whom and via what format telephone, face to face letter etc?


its was by phone interview this morning ive told you what they said please 
dont be stropy with me i don`t need it


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> Talk to adviser on Monday telling them you want a reconsideration. If it's still No you can then appeal.
> 
> The JC+ have to take into consideration your illness/ailments and cannot throw you back into claiming JSA with all the conditionality. You have a month to get a reconsideration done, then you can appeal.


great ok thanks will do that its 2 weeks until i get any money from them


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> great ok thanks will do that its 2 weeks until i get any money from them


You may have some ESA still to get if you weren't paid just before or after the call. Make sure the JC+ adviser gets a claim in for any money you may miss.. ie: this new 7 day bullshit. 

I'm going through this guff myself just now so will come back and repost on all the DWP fk ups and disasters over the weekend.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> great ok thanks will do that its 2 weeks until i get any money from them


Mandatory reconsiderations

i'll give you highlights in a few mins


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

Frankie Jack said:


> You may have some ESA still to get if you weren't paid just before or after the call. Make sure the JC+ adviser gets a claim in for any money you may miss.. ie: this new 7 day bullshit.
> 
> I'm going through this guff myself just now so will come back and repost on all the DWP fk ups and disasters over the weekend.


thanks so its not just me


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

> You can ask for a mandatory reconsideration in writing or by telephone. There will be details of who to contact and how in the decision notification letter you receive.
> 
> If you do ask by phone, we would advise you to follow this up with a letter stating that you asked for a mandatory reconsideration by telephone on whatever date – just in case your call wasn’t logged or recorded.
> 
> owever you ask, you must do so within the deadline



which is usually 1 month


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

If you were found fit for work and you ask for a mandatory reconsideration then you will not be paid any ESA until either the decision is changed in your favour or the mandatory reconsideration is completed and you have lodged an appeal.

You can ask to be paid ESA at the assessment phase rate once you have lodged your appeal. However, it will not be paid until the Tribunals Service confirm to the DWP that an appeal has been lodged. At the moment it is not clear whether your ESA payments will be backdated to when your ESA was stopped at this stage or whether this will only happen if, you actually win your appeal. Please check back for updates.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

If you have not been awarded any rate of ESA at all, whilst the mandatory reconsideration is taking place you will not be able to claim ESA at the assessment phase rate. I*nstead, you will be forced to claim another benefit, such as Jobseeker's Allowance, if you are eligible or not claim any income replacement benefit at all.*

You will still be able to claim other benefits, such as housing benefit whilst the mandatory reconsideration takes place. However, the ending of your ESA may interrupt the payment of other benefits and you will need to contact the agencies that pay them about the change in your circumstances.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

the one thing we know for certain is that there is no time limit within which the DWP must carry out a mandatory reconsideration – they can take as long as they choose.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

There is some evidence that the DWP have set themselves a target of 10 days to carry out mandatory reconsiderations, but this is in no way binding upon them and it would be very surprising if this timescale was met in the majority of cases


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

If the decision is favourable your award will be backdated to the date of the decision you were unhappy with. You will be paid any benefits you are owed, minus the amount of any income replacement benefits, such as JSA, that you have claimed whilst waiting for a decision


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

You will receive two copies of the Mandatory Reconsideration Notice through the post, will which explain what the result of the reconsideration is. If you are unhappy with the decision and wish to challenge it, you will have to enclose one of the Mandatory Reconsideration Notices with your appeal form (SSCS1)


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

Benefits and Work publishes a detailed guide to ESA appeals which covers mandatory reconsiderations and appeals in depth from the day they are introduced.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks so its not just me


Nah. There's thousands of us. You're not alone.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

that's just a cut and paste of the bits you need to know.

afaik, they can't use you claiming jsa in the meantime as evidence that you are fit for work. Greebo i've seen you about, can you ask him pls. know you're on hols, but if you haven't tired him out, he knows this shit best of us all


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

and i did find the blue badge application guidance notes that i promised to find for boss's mum. and offered to assist with the form provided i'm allowed to see her info. told boss i wouldn't touch it without her mum telling me it was ok. her telling me her mum said it was ok wasn't good enough. i think she liked finding out i took stuff like that seriously.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> In other news  Maximus
> 
> *CHDA launches ESA50 Support Team *
> *CHDA launches ESA50 Support Team | Health Assessment Advisory Service*
> ...


Please note that this thread isn't for general discussion,  it's specifically to help people going through the process. There are other threads for news items and things of interest.

Also, please try to be mindful that passenger has had some very crap news today and does not need you getting frustrated or annoyed with them because you think they're drip feeding information. Please be kind on this thread.


----------



## passenger (Oct 9, 2015)

thanks toggle sounds like there making things very difficult


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks toggle sounds like there making very difficult


They are, then they can say 'look, our figures show that there's fewer people claiming benefits, isn't that great?' when the reality is people can't always take this kind of stress and simply remove themselves from the claim process. 

Hang in there.


----------



## Frankie Jack (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks toggle sounds like there making very difficult


They do. I hope you get a good adviser with a conscience on Monday. Mine is excellent.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

passenger said:


> thanks toggle sounds like there making things very difficult



hey, we just decided you're crook, but not crook enough. please emulate a performing seal until doing so has made you crook enough that we think you're crook enough.

get the paperwork and lets find out their justification. and call it the bullshit it is.


----------



## toggle (Oct 9, 2015)

oh and boss's mum gets higher rate mobility dla, so only needs to prove that for a bolue badge. 

easy one.

and me boy got me vino


----------



## passenger (Oct 10, 2015)

on top of all this i still have to do job club  what more do they want 
so i wonder if i get the job club payment ....well felling better today 
will get as few cans in for the wales game and cheer up thanks everyone


----------



## Celyn (Oct 10, 2015)

It sounds like a whole lot of horrible. I hope you CAN manage to take your mind off it for a wee while over the weekend - it's the unrelenting dread and fear that gets you down.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2015)

passenger said:


> on top of all this i still have to do job club  what more do they want
> so i wonder if i get the job club payment ....well felling better today
> will get as few cans in for the wales game and cheer up thanks everyone


 let's see how your first meeting with your advisor goes next week, they might set different things for you to do.


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 10, 2015)

passenger said:


> so i wonder if i get the job club payment ....



For any activities outside of your normal signing day, travel expenses should be reimbursed. But don't expect all advisers to openly admit that is the case, if you are denied travel expenses, make an official complaint to the Jobcentre. I'm not sure what else you could mean by 'job club payment' apart from travel expenses.


----------



## passenger (Oct 10, 2015)

i have do a job club when on esa i only went every now and then 
due to my leg but they give you an extra amount 25 a week @


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 10, 2015)

passenger 

I have never heard of an extra award being given for attending a job club. That certainly won't be the case when claiming JSA.

Were you in the support group receiving income-related ESA? That would give you close to £25 more, including the Enhanced Disability Premium, than other ESA claimants in the work related activity group.
I'd be very surprised if you received an extra £25 payment for occasionally attending a job club whilst claiming ESA, but if you did it would be interesting to know more details.


----------



## 8115 (Oct 10, 2015)

The basic ESA is around £75 plus £25 for the WRAG, or plus a bit more for the support group I think.

I think it's the extra £25 that they were thinking of, or are, going to take away from people in the WRAG.  Bastards.

Afaik there is no extra payment at all on the £75 for JSA.


----------



## passenger (Oct 10, 2015)

Jackobi said:


> passenger
> 
> I have never heard of an extra award being given for attending a job club. That certainly won't be the case when claiming JSA.
> 
> ...


well on esa if you had been on there for a certain time you went into a job related 
work group/job club, to help you get back into work so my money went up... im not 
to worried because i will fight this  now i have had time to think ...but the job 
club (RBLI) say even the fact im on JSA i still have to go confused is not the word.


----------



## passenger (Oct 11, 2015)

ok well i have just sent a letter off to my local mp 
here in Crawley Henry Smith (tory party) i don`t know 
if it will help but i thought it was worth a try


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2015)

passenger said:


> ok well i have just sent a letter off to my local mp
> here in Crawley Henry Smith (tory party) i don`t know
> if it will help but i thought it was worth a try


It's definitely worth a try, well done for doing something positive.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 11, 2015)

toggle said:


> that's just a cut and paste of the bits you need to know.
> 
> afaik, they can't use you claiming jsa in the meantime as evidence that you are fit for work. Greebo i've seen you about, can you ask him pls. know you're on hols, but if you haven't tired him out, he knows this shit best of us all


ViolentPanda answer the fucking thread!  

I'm trying to keep my internet use to a minimum, as VP's paying through the nose for a fairly small data allowance on wifi, and I CBA to get dressed enough to go half a mile to the nearest internet cafe (50 cents an hour paid to a grouchy shopkeeper).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 11, 2015)

Greebo said:


> ViolentPanda answer the fucking thread!



Having looked through what toggle has said, she's got it all right. As passenger is being *compelled* to claim JSA, it can't be used as "evidence" of anything by the DWP, except maybe as an example of bureaucratic cuntishness.



> I'm trying to keep my internet use to a minimum, as VP's paying through the nose for a fairly small data allowance on wifi, and I CBA to get dressed enough to go half a mile to the nearest internet cafe (50 cents an hour paid to a grouchy shopkeeper).



At least the shop-keeper hasn't tried to buy you!


----------



## panpete (Oct 11, 2015)

Please can someone help.
I got a SAR request from my doctors surgery, and it was just a load of print-offfs with no evidence of my self harm or the risk I present.
I have had loads of out of hours treatment but I cannot find any records of this. Paramedics even came to my house, but I have th paperwork for this.
I was in the minor injuries unit on boxing day.
I am ashamed to say that I have also attacked two other people.  I hate violence, and I am sorry I hurt and I told them at the time.
I also phoned my GP and told them.
The problem is, the DWP want evidence that is specific and I am finding this hard to get from my doctor.
I don't have anyone looking after my mental health.
I am awaiting an ADHD assessment, already seen the specialist ADHD nurse and waiting for an appt with the specialist who can diagnose and prescribe.
I am in the support group and need to stay in the support group, but it seems that the only people allowed in the support group are those with cpn's, yet there is a gap, because my GP said she doesn't think I need a cpn.
The DWP only seem to put people in the support group, who have got help rather than soemone like me   who needs help,  but  as I dont have a cpn it looks like I don't need help.
I have also been stockpiling pills in case I need to take an overdose if things get that bad, but I dunno if I forgot to tell that to the doctor, I think I did forget.
I'm nearly 50 and have had enough. I don't want to be in the rat race. I am very mentally fragile, and I always wish I had terminal illness, so I can escape all of this austerity.
I don't get on with people, I find it hard to gain their respect. 
I couldn't work with people, I would end up making red marks on the wall with my head.
I've just had enough. I don't want to live anymore.
There is too much hatred in the world and I am single with no kids, as I didn't thinkk I was a fit mother, really  I would have loved to hav been a fit mother with kids.
When I ring the doctors, some of them get pissed off a little bit cos they cannot help yet I keep on phoning them when I think I need help.
I think I come under regulation 35 but I think that because I don't have a cpn the DWP will think I am eiher fit for worko r fit for wrk related activity


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 11, 2015)

panpete when you receive out if hours treatment there is normally a letter sent to your gp. However you can also make a subject access request to the hospital where you were treated and they should also give you copies of your records. 

I'm not sure of what question you are asking - but having a CPN won't necessarily guarantee you anything, I'm sorry to say. Please try not to worry too much, and if you are stockpiling pills and wish to tell your doctor you can consider writing a letter to them.


----------



## toggle (Oct 11, 2015)

Greebo said:


> ViolentPanda answer the fucking thread!
> 
> I'm trying to keep my internet use to a minimum, as VP's paying through the nose for a fairly small data allowance on wifi, and I CBA to get dressed enough to go half a mile to the nearest internet cafe (50 cents an hour paid to a grouchy shopkeeper).



thanks hun.

have fun and do hope we can see you just after you get back


----------



## toggle (Oct 11, 2015)

panpete said:


> Please can someone help.
> I got a SAR request from my doctors surgery, and it was just a load of print-offfs with no evidence of my self harm or the risk I present.
> I have had loads of out of hours treatment but I cannot find any records of this. Paramedics even came to my house, but I have th paperwork for this.
> I was in the minor injuries unit on boxing day.
> ...



were the police called?

only cause stuff isn't evidence unless it results in someone having to take action. himself being a danger to himself in the kitchen wasn't evidence unless the fire brigade was called out when the place started filing with smoke


----------



## passenger (Oct 12, 2015)

well signed on but i put in an appeal as well you get JSA until you go back
on ESA fingers crossed and on top of that my local mp wrote back saying
he would ask the DWP  re look and be more sympathetic to my claim 
i fell worn out long day


----------



## toggle (Oct 12, 2015)

passenger said:


> well signed on but i put in an appeal as well you get JSA until you go back
> on ESA fingers crossed and on top of that my local mp wrote back saying
> he would ask the DWP  re look and be more sympathetic to my claim
> i fell worn out long day



well done


----------



## Greebo (Oct 13, 2015)

passenger said:


> well signed on but i put in an appeal as well you get JSA until you go back
> on ESA fingers crossed (SNIP)
> 
> i fell worn out long day


Well done for getting through the day and doing what you had to get done.  Glad to hear that at least your MP is backing you up.


----------



## passenger (Oct 14, 2015)

just got the results for my esa report 0 points wtf  
what on earth are these people playing at just hope my mp
can do something (sorry to go on )


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 14, 2015)

passenger said:


> well signed on but i put in an appeal as well you get JSA until you go back
> on ESA fingers crossed and on top of that my local mp wrote back saying
> he would ask the DWP  re look and be more sympathetic to my claim
> i fell worn out long day


hope you are not too exhausted. Its great that you mp has replied.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 14, 2015)

panpete said:


> Please can someone help.
> I got a SAR request from my doctors surgery, and it was just a load of print-offfs with no evidence of my self harm or the risk I present.
> I have had loads of out of hours treatment but I cannot find any records of this. Paramedics even came to my house, but I have th paperwork for this.
> I was in the minor injuries unit on boxing day.
> ...


so sorry to hear this. I've nothing practical to advise - but please hang on in there. I have no idea what sort of evidence they need or will accept, just collect what you can.
If you feel suicidal and need someone to talk to don't forget Samaritans | Samaritans


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 14, 2015)

How many Tories does it take to change a lightbulb?

Just one but hurry! Poor and disabled people are more likely to kill themselves with the lights on.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 14, 2015)

How many Atos staff does it take to change a light bulb?

Several to book the appointment, cancel it, rearrange it, and interview it. 
Then another one to produce a report saying it is perfectly capable of working afterall.


----------



## passenger (Oct 15, 2015)

got my pip the judge, docter,and  barrister  etc awarded the points i needed 
thanks every body i can`t put into words how happy i am and sorry for 
boring every one


----------



## existentialist (Oct 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> got my pip the judge, docter,and  barrister  etc awarded the points i needed
> thanks every body i can`t put into words how happy i am and sorry for
> boring every one


They don't have to be bored! And it isn't boring to see someone battle their way through a system designed to break them down...and win.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> got my pip the judge, docter,and  barrister  etc awarded the points i needed
> thanks every body i can`t put into words how happy i am and sorry for
> boring every one


Yay for getting pip. Boo for nil points ESA, which is clearly absolutely bollocks.


----------



## passenger (Oct 15, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> Yay for getting pip. Boo for nil points ESA, which is clearly absolutely bollocks.


well win some lose some, it really does show the system is nasty and wrong 
a lot of people would have given up and thats what they want


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> well win some lose some, it really does show the system is nasty and wrong
> a lot of people would have given up and thats what they want


It is. Then they point to figures that show there are fewer claimants and try to make out its proof their sanctions work.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> got my pip the judge, docter,and  barrister  etc awarded the points i needed
> thanks every body i can`t put into words how happy i am and sorry for
> boring every one


hooray! I'm pleased for you.

It annoys me that there is such a useless system in place that it puts ill people through such hassle and stress - and the added expense to the taxpayer of first funding the profits of Atos, and then funding all the extra appeals and tribunerals.


----------



## passenger (Oct 15, 2015)

a good day


----------



## toggle (Oct 15, 2015)

passenger said:


> got my pip the judge, docter,and  barrister  etc awarded the points i needed
> thanks every body i can`t put into words how happy i am and sorry for
> boring every one




boring?

that's you reporting another tick in the win column. which is fucking awesome.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 21, 2015)

I received a dose of the brown envelope blues this morning, with a notice telling me that as a recipient of DLA, I have to apply for PIP by 14th of November. Knew it was would happen somewhere down the line, but I'm still cunted off by the fact that it's added stress that Greebo and I really don't need. 
Oh well. I'm going to be taking a leaf out of tufty79 's book and buy a pair of cassette recorders, and I'm going to do so *before* I phone the leaching bastards!


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 22, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> I received a dose of the brown envelope blues this morning, with a notice telling me that as a recipient of DLA, I have to apply for PIP by 14th of November. Knew it was would happen somewhere down the line, but I'm still cunted off by the fact that it's added stress that Greebo and I really don't need.
> Oh well. I'm going to be taking a leaf out of tufty79 's book and buy a pair of cassette recorders, and I'm going to do so *before* I phone the leaching bastards!


solidarity like Mr panda hope it didn't affect you both too much. They haven't given you a massive amount of time though...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 22, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> solidarity like Mr panda hope it didn't affect you both too much. They haven't given you a massive amount of time though...



They never do, do they?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 22, 2015)

ViolentPanda said:


> They never do, do they?


course not. People might have chance to gather all sorts of supporting evidence and answer the questions really well. They can't have that!


----------



## passenger (Oct 22, 2015)

hope your ok mr panda i think if anyone can you can


----------



## scifisam (Oct 23, 2015)

Well done on being so proactive, passenger! And when it gets to the appeal stage you can now use the DLA award as part of your evidence.


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## passenger (Oct 23, 2015)

well so far the  DWP say they are  sticking to there decision, so im staying  on JSA no
reply from my* local tory MP in Crawley ...* but as i am Disabled i get a
£37 a week top up on my  JSA so, looking for work from home, must be at least 16 hours per week.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 31, 2015)

This was posted on another thread - thought it might be useful here



superfly101 said:


> Although somebody here might get pissy
> 
> *CPAG Safeguarding guidance: a tool for practitioners*
> 
> ...


----------



## panpete (Nov 1, 2015)

I have a question please.

There was lots of scandal surrounding ATOS finding people fit for work.
Since March 2015, all has gone quiet.
I know that Maximus now do the ESA WCA assessments, under the name "The _Centre_ for _Health_ and Disability Assessments Limited"

I don't think for one minute that CHDA ltd are any more lenient than Atos was, or that the rules have got less stricter, so how come there are much, much less media reports of people suffering after being found fit for work by this new company.
There was a steady stream of reports in the media, regarding ATOS, so how come they have dried up since March 2015.


----------



## MorningLightMtn (Nov 1, 2015)

Hello, everyone. This thread is an invaluable resource, though I've not had the time to read it all. 

I'm new here and have a few questions.

I attended an assessment with my husband last week for the renewal of his ESA. He has been in the support group for a few years now, claiming for major depressive disorder/suicidal ideation and panic disorder mainly as well as for chronic migraines which has landed him in the hospital and can cause him to pass out. The assessment seemed to go ok, but there were a few odd things that happened which I'm not too sure about. When we first got there, after signing in, they placed us in a separate waiting room from all the other people. Maybe because my husband was visibly nervous and shaking? Secondly, we took a taxi to the assessment as he was feeling too anxious to go on public transport. The assessor, when she asked us how we came, was surprised we had not booked a taxi through them or asked them to pay for it. She then offered to call one to take us home and have them pay for it. I thought this a bit odd as they're usually very strict with and try to get out of paying for these things. I think she was just being nice and compassionate but my husband isn't sure. He is often very paranoid and was convinced they were monitoring him in the taxi back home and reporting back about this, too. Also, at the end of the assessment we handed in some more medical evidence. While we were waiting for the taxi, the assessor came out and asked a few more questions about my husband's medication - specifically why he's not taking the amount his evidence said he should take. We explained that his psychiatrists changed and that his new one isn't following the plan the old one set out and decided to do something different. This felt odd to us as the assessment (and recording) had finished. Hubby is also really nervous about the fact that he occasionally does some light jogging on the rare days he feels able to walk out the door (always the same route, just around the block and only for about 15 minutes) and that it would count against him, though his psychiatrists have basically instructed him to do this (the psychiatrists' letter says as much) as he is resistant to medication and is now on a waiting list for ECT. He's been suicidal off and on for the past few years, but he is so bad right now that I have to keep his meds away from him and dish out his doses every day. I felt they glossed over his suicidal feelings in the assessment. I did notice that the assessor let me answer most of the questions for him as he was so anxious he was speaking very quietly, kept his eyes closed and his legs were shaking throughout.

Maybe we're just being paranoid and paying too much attention to scare stories about the way the DWP tries to trip up genuine claimants and make them confused and/or paranoid. Just wondering if anyone else has experienced anything odd along these lines in their assessments.

Thank you in advance for any help. We anxiously await the letter from the DWP with his results.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 1, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Hello, everyone. This thread is an invaluable resource, though I've not had the time to read it all.
> 
> I'm new here and have a few questions.
> 
> ...


Welcome. Not sure I can be of any help, but I just want to say I don't blame anyone for being paranoid throughout this process - when the whole purpose of these assessments seems to be to force people off their benefits.

Some of what you describe sounds like they are being considerate, the separate waiting room and the offer of taxis (I didn't know they did that either) - but not surprised you are suspicious. Is this the new Maximus procedure I wonder, after all the media flak about cruel treatment of ill people. I don't recall this sort of thing being commented on with Atos. I think we might have offered our bus fares after the assessment but here was no info beforehand, and I think they wanted receipts, which we didn't have - who gets receipts for oyster payments? certainly no mention of taxis, but that was over a year ago. 

Your hubby shouldn't feel guilty about jogging - its widely accepted that exercise and daylight are good for depression and I hope he is able to continue to do this, and that the assessment hasn't put him off. 

I'm glad you were able to be there to help him and I wish you both all the best. fingers crossed for you.


----------



## MorningLightMtn (Nov 1, 2015)

Thanks for the kind words and advice, friendofdorothy 

Hopefully we won't have to wait too long to hear his result. I remember last time we went through this process, it was about a month of waiting until the Evil Brown Envelope came through the door.

The assessment has done a bit of a number on him. He's been sleeping a lot more and stopped exercising for now actually as well as stopped using the internet - he's convinced he's being watched 24/7 by the government. His depression and anxiety is as bad as it's ever been now and I'm kind of at a loss. Fortunately, the community mental health team are visiting him at home on Tuesday. He's usually a little better after these visits as they reassure him.

I just hate the way ill people are treated in this country. Fuck the Tories and their money-worshipping, sociopathic ideology


----------



## toggle (Nov 1, 2015)

passenger said:


> well so far the  DWP say they are  sticking to there decision, so im staying  on JSA no
> reply from my* local tory MP in Crawley ...* but as i am Disabled i get a
> £37 a week top up on my  JSA so, looking for work from home, must be at least 16 hours per week.



isn't that their statuatory reconsideration/

so you get to file an actual appeal now


----------



## panpete (Nov 2, 2015)

Why is there no bad media reports on Maximus finding people fit for work.
I know they go under another name now, but the rules have not changed.
Atos got a lot of bad press, but maximus or CHDA (cheddar centre-as I have nicknamed them) are still assessing people, but there is a total lack of reports of their finding people fit for work, who arent, even the blogs from politicaly orientated people are not writing aobut them.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 2, 2015)

panpete said:


> I have a question please.
> 
> There was lots of scandal surrounding ATOS finding people fit for work.
> Since March 2015, all has gone quiet.
> ...



Pretty much because Maximus have only been doing it for less than a year, so haven't built up a head of negative publicity in the way that ATOS (who'd been doing ESA WCAs since 2008-09) did. 
However, given that we've seen plenty of *individual* anecdote about Maximus being no better or worse than ATOS, it's highly likely that by this time next year, there will be plenty of press coverage about just how shittily they're doing.


----------



## passenger (Nov 2, 2015)

toggle said:


> isn't that their statuatory reconsideration/
> 
> so you get to file an actual appeal now


well to be honest, i would like a part time role from home 
its what i can do tbo, maybe do a course should maybe 
ask for advice on another thread ...i got my pip but will 
go down the part time route first, i really do need something to do 

thanks for your concern toggle


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 2, 2015)

panpete said:


> Why is there no bad media reports on Maximus finding people fit for work.
> I know they go under another name now, but the rules have not changed.
> Atos got a lot of bad press, but maximus or CHDA (cheddar centre-as I have nicknamed them) are still assessing people, but there is a total lack of reports of their finding people fit for work, who arent, even the blogs from politicaly orientated people are not writing aobut them.





ViolentPanda said:


> Pretty much because Maximus have only been doing it for less than a year, so haven't built up a head of negative publicity in the way that ATOS (who'd been doing ESA WCAs since 2008-09) did.
> However, given that we've seen plenty of *individual* anecdote about Maximus being no better or worse than ATOS, it's highly likely that by this time next year, there will be plenty of press coverage about just how shittily they're doing.


 and there was me being optimistic and hoping they might be better than Atos or at least not as bad.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 2, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Thanks for the kind words and advice, friendofdorothy
> 
> Hopefully we won't have to wait too long to hear his result. I remember last time we went through this process, it was about a month of waiting until the Evil Brown Envelope came through the door.
> 
> ...


The damage these assessments do really angers me too. Hope hubby is feeling better soon.  

I know how difficult it can be, it is bad enough seeing a partner suffer illness, but then to see senseless bureaucratic processes make them worse, is just heartbreaking. I hope you are bearing up ok too. Wishing you strength to support your hubby.


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 2, 2015)

I am one of the unlucky 0.03% or something of people who has been computer random selected to have my pip claim performance measured (ie investigated) three years early 

Told them they are not allowed in my home or to see me without an advocate so they will write to me with new arrangements. Getting welfare rights on the case when i get the new appointment letter.  It is really not helpful to have this happen at the moment.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 2, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I am one of the unlucky 0.03% or something of people who has been computer random selected to have my pip claim performance measured (ie investigated) three years early
> 
> Told them they are not allowed in my home or to see me without an advocate so they will write to me with new arrangements. Getting welfare rights on the case when i get the new appointment letter.  It is really not helpful to have this happen at the moment.


sorry to hear that. Are you ok?
Have you got anyone to help you pull all the paperwork together and be an advocate? 
best wishes x


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 2, 2015)

I will be ok. My gp is being ace on other crises so will ask for their support in trying to just call the whole thing off. 

Gonna rely on welfare rights for now.   And take along a video of the state of me and my home. And my Emergency Bucket.

Thanks you for replying x


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 2, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I will be ok. My gp is being ace on other crises so will ask for their support in trying to just call the whole thing off.
> 
> Gonna rely on welfare rights for now.   And take along a video of the state of me and my home. And my Emergency Bucket.
> 
> Thanks you for replying x


Glad your gp is being helpful. 

I must ask what is an emergency bucket?


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 2, 2015)

tufty79 said:


> I am one of the unlucky 0.03% or something of people who has been computer random selected to have my pip claim performance measured (ie investigated) three years early
> 
> Told them they are not allowed in my home or to see me without an advocate so they will write to me with new arrangements. Getting welfare rights on the case when i get the new appointment letter.  It is really not helpful to have this happen at the moment.


In the past sending a copy of letter for your length of exemption/earliest assessment date has proved reasonably successful in the claimant being left alone. Would think it would increase your success if an advocate or someone wrote on your behalf.


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 2, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> Glad your gp is being helpful.
> 
> I must ask what is an emergency bucket?


For pissing in my bedroom when diabetes goes wrong and means i can't get to the loo in time at night.and in the day.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 2, 2015)

equationgirl said:


> In the past sending a copy of letter for your length of exemption/earliest assessment date has proved reasonably successful in the claimant being left alone. Would think it would increase your success if an advocate or someone wrote on your behalf.


wonder if mentioning the safeguarding as mentioned in link above would helpful.



tufty79 said:


> For pissing in my bedroom when diabetes goes wrong and means i can't get to the loo in time at night.and in the day.


definitely take that then!

Good luck tufty79  - hope they leave you alone and that they don't add to your stress.


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## toggle (Nov 2, 2015)

passenger said:


> well to be honest, i would like a part time role from home
> its what i can do tbo, maybe do a course should maybe
> ask for advice on another thread ...i got my pip but will
> go down the part time route first, i really do need something to do
> ...



nothing stopping you studying and doing some part time work on esa. you just get more money and less harassment while doing it


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## passenger (Nov 2, 2015)

toggle said:


> nothing stopping you studying and doing some part time work on esa. you just get more money and less harassment while doing it


they put me on JSA  about a month ago   so really can`t take any more shit  
a part time job will do me wonders ...just need to find one


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 3, 2015)

friendofdorothy said:


> and there was me being optimistic and hoping they might be better than Atos or at least not as bad.



From what I can make out, they're slightly better in terms of actually not falsifying the answers you give, but they picked up a lot of ATOS's staff when the TOSsers withdrew, and any *REAL* change also has to take place at the DWP decision-makers level too, before the tide of appeals at shoddy WCAs and shoddy decisions is dealt with.


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## tufty79 (Nov 3, 2015)

Excellent. Recorded half if the  phone call from the Dwp cunt who doesn't understand no. 

Sue, my investigator from the dwp, has lost my advocates phone no,  which is available on Google, and wanted me to give it her after i have said she is not allowed to contact me directly because crisis

Cue three minutes of (paraphrased) 
'sue, please hang up. This is harassment' 
'but'
'no, sue.  I cannot help you to do your job if you are incompetent. I am in crisis right this second and unable to help '
' but i can't remember their phone no'
'hang up please '
' but'
'FUCK OFF SUE,  YOU CUNT '
' but'
'LOTS OF SCREAMING '
*click *


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## tufty79 (Nov 3, 2015)

I am waiting to speak to my advocate again. I will let them know i refuse to be in the same room as Sensitive Sue, and that is for the dwp to sort out.


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## tufty79 (Nov 3, 2015)

... Aaaaand my wheels have fallen off. Trying to find friends in Leeds who can look after me for the aftermath afternoon.

Edit: sorted. Coming round for tea and backgammon and gentle in an hour x


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 3, 2015)

liked for the sorted bit, not the wheels coming off. hope you are calming down ok now.


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## MorningLightMtn (Nov 7, 2015)

Does anybody have a rough idea of how long they're taking to make their decisions on ESA these days? It's only been 8 days, so not really expecting word yet, just want this whole process to be over for my husband so we know whether we have to appeal, etc. Thanks


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Does anybody have a rough idea of how long they're taking to make their decisions on ESA these days? It's only been 8 days, so not really expecting word yet, just want this whole process to be over for my husband so we know whether we have to appeal, etc. Thanks


No idea I'm afraid,  it seems to vary widely.  best of luck and sit tight.


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## Greebo (Nov 7, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Does anybody have a rough idea of how long they're taking to make their decisions on ESA these days? It's only been 8 days, so not really expecting word yet, just want this whole process to be over for my husband so we know whether we have to appeal, etc. Thanks


IMHO start preparing to appeal, so that you won't have to, IYSWIM.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Does anybody have a rough idea of how long they're taking to make their decisions on ESA these days? It's only been 8 days, so not really expecting word yet, just want this whole process to be over for my husband so we know whether we have to appeal, etc. Thanks



Decision times vary, dependent on how snowed-under the DWP decision-makers are. I've known it vary from 2-3 weeks, all the way to 5-6 months, although the longer waits seem to be mostly all in the past. From what I recall from applying for ESA/changing over from Incapacity Benefit last year, they gave a maximum time of 13 weeks.


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## MorningLightMtn (Nov 7, 2015)

Thanks for the replies, everyone


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## MorningLightMtn (Nov 9, 2015)

Good news. Got a letter through today saying he's been put into the support group. It doesn't say how long for, but we're not going to worry about that right now. Thanks again, everyone!


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## Greebo (Nov 9, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Good news. Got a letter through today saying he's been put into the support group. It doesn't say how long for, but we're not going to worry about that right now. Thanks again, everyone!


Excellent news!


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 9, 2015)

MorningLightMtn said:


> Good news. Got a letter through today saying he's been put into the support group. It doesn't say how long for, but we're not going to worry about that right now. Thanks again, everyone!


Pleased to hear they did the right thing! good to hear some good news.


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## equationgirl (Nov 9, 2015)

Hurrah!!  excellent news


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## vstark (Dec 3, 2015)

Hi all, are there any good general rules for what you absolutely need to communicate during these interviews? And what you absolutely shouldn't? Is there a reference somewhere for exactly what they score you on?

I've been on disability for almost ten years now (currently in the ESA support group), and I avoided the medical assessment last time around. I have very severe mental health issues around anxiety/depression, and I've spent most of my life as a house-bound recluse being looked after by my dad. My dad in the past communicated this to the assessors, got them to do a home visit, and then spoke to them on my behalf (I just exited the room without a word after a few minutes because I couldn't bear it).

The thing is over the last few years I've been making real progress and my mental health has improved and now there are certain things that I can do (like go outside), so I feel like I really should just attend the interview this time around. I resent how demeaning the process is, how it forces you to emphasise how bad you are, when the reality is I am proud of the progress I have made and don't particularly wish to dwell on how things are still difficult for me. I've been trying to find work while claiming ESA precisely so that I could avoid having to go through this process yet again, but the reality is that my mental health makes it still much too difficult. I applied for an internship with a local charity the other week (with a lot of encouragement from my support worker) and was so anxious about what I'd do if I actually got the job that I couldn't stop throwing up. I still struggle to communicate with people, I can't go into buildings on my own, I cannot use phones, etc. On my worst days I'm kind of a wreck and I can't leave the house. But I don't really want to have to say this.

Last time around, even when my dad had to do everything for me, they still put me in the work-related group, and I had to appeal to go into the support group. If I actually turn up to the interview and answer questions, do I have any hope of not just being found fit for work? The entire process is deeply upsetting and I really just needed somewhere to vent and hopefully get some advice. This thread seems like a good source of information, and you all seem lovely, but it is a very long thread, so I'm sorry if such a general query is already covered on a previous page.


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## equationgirl (Dec 4, 2015)

vstark said:


> Hi all, are there any good general rules for what you absolutely need to communicate during these interviews? And what you absolutely shouldn't? Is there a reference somewhere for exactly what they score you on?
> 
> I've been on disability for almost ten years now (currently in the ESA support group), and I avoided the medical assessment last time around. I have very severe mental health issues around anxiety/depression, and I've spent most of my life as a house-bound recluse being looked after by my dad. My dad in the past communicated this to the assessors, got them to do a home visit, and then spoke to them on my behalf (I just exited the room without a word after a few minutes because I couldn't bear it).
> 
> ...


welcome to the thread  

Obviously we can't guarantee anything regarding your assessment but given that various things still cause you severe issues with communication,  have you considered asking for a home assessment?  I appreciate you want to demonstrate progress but there is a growing body of evidence from claimants that small things such as dressing smartly are used against them and as justification that nothing is wrong with them I.e. No money.

It is difficult to tell a stranger about all the things you can't do and I can understand your reluctance,  but if you don't they are likely to say you are fit for work.

It sounds like you're making really great progress which is fab, but if you can't use phones and anxiety is making you sick then you are realistically not ready to go back to work and you should tell them.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 5, 2015)

vstark said:


> but the reality is that my mental health makes it still much too difficult. I applied for an internship with a local charity the other week (with a lot of encouragement from my support worker) and was so anxious about what I'd do if I actually got the job that I couldn't stop throwing up. I still struggle to communicate with people, I can't go into buildings on my own, I cannot use phones, etc. On my worst days I'm kind of a wreck and I can't leave the house. But I don't really want to have to say this.


 This is exactly what you must say. I know you say its not what you want to focus on and its not theraputic to dwell on the negative - but this is what they need to know if you are not to be forced to sign on. Don't tell them what you can do on a good day - tell them about your bad days. To say you can something - think can you do it repeatedly, without support, anytime? If your mental health stops you doing something they should take that into consideration, so say so.

Don't go to the assessment on your own, don't phone them yourself - if you generally need support to do this sort of thing the assessment is not the opportunity to start being brave. Everything from the moment you arrive at the centre is part of the assessment, they may even watch you coming and going. 

There is loads of good links and advice here if you look back a bit - I know its ridiculously long thread now. There were some links to mental health advice but that was a while back, I'll see if I can find you some links.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 5, 2015)

Dont know if these would help:

Frequently Asked Questions | Mind, the mental health charity - help for mental health problems

Read this if you are going for an ATOS medical (also helps with tribunal questions) | Disability Forum | Peer Support Network | Online Community

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/379/schedule/2/made


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## superfly101 (Dec 12, 2015)

Haven't been through these myself yet 



> ‘Two web-apps, one for ESA and one for PIP, that offer guidance, advice and support on most aspects of the application process. You can even have a go at a practice run of the sort of questions you may be asked by an assessor. ‘



C-App - SEAP

c-App


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## ash (Dec 12, 2015)

superfly101 said:


> Haven't been through these myself yet
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The pip one doesn't work it says your not legible for anything when the person I submitted is clearly eligible for enhanced mobility


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## yardbird (Dec 12, 2015)

Hi vstark
I 68 now so I won't ever again have to speak to some idiot who just doesn't get it.
Wish you all the best and this thread will help.


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## vstark (Dec 14, 2015)

Thanks for the replies and support everyone, my interview is tomorrow. I hope it goes okay.


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## existentialist (Dec 14, 2015)

vstark said:


> Thanks for the replies and support everyone, my interview is tomorrow. I hope it goes okay.


So do we. Good luck.


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## Libertad (Dec 14, 2015)

vstark said:


> Thanks for the replies and support everyone, my interview is tomorrow. I hope it goes okay.



Best of luck.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2015)

Sent in my PIP assessment for at the end of last week (got a text to say they'd got it today), so we're probably looking at another ATOSser assessment. That'll be fun.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 14, 2015)

vstark said:


> Thanks for the replies and support everyone, my interview is tomorrow. I hope it goes okay.



Best of British luck!


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## equationgirl (Dec 15, 2015)

vstark hope it went okay today. If you feel able to tell us how it went at some point that would be great. But if you can't that's perfectly ok too. Whatever you decide, please try not to worry about the outcome. All the best.


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## Libertad (Dec 16, 2015)

Libertad said:


> I've been lucky enough to get someone from DPAC to accompany me to the medical and that'll be the first thing that they ask.



I've held off posting about my assessment and the following decision because I was waiting for a "good" time to share it . By a "good" time I mean one where other contributors to the thread were not experiencing their own problems and anxieties with the WCA.
Picking such a time hasn't been easy due to the very nature of the struggle that we face in having to undergo such an intrusive and inherently unfair procedure.

My assessment took place in a consulting room at the local hospital and I was lucky enough to be accompanied by a representative from DPAC. I was having a rough day, in fact I'd had a rough weekend before the appointment. My health problems, ME/CFS, Fibromyalgia and Osteoarthritis had probably been exacerbated by being so stressed by the whole process. Over the weekend I'd managed about six hours sleep in total. I was fucked and I looked it.

The HCP introduced himself and told us that he was a retired GP. We talked informally for about five minutes, I was very careful what I said and told him my medical history to date and handed a sizeable sheaf of supporting evidence that I'd also sent registered post to Maximus.
He noted that I didn't look very well and I, stupidly, said that I was "alright" and that it was amazing what you get used to.

He then said that we would start the assessment and turned the recording machine on. He recorded for six minutes in total and asked me variations of the questions he'd asked earlier, I then realised that he'd been coaching me. He progressed from asking questions to making statements. "It's quite obvious to me that you would experience great difficulty in walking 20 metres and you certainly wouldn't be able to do that repetitively." The assessment was then over, he told me that he would be recommending that I be placed in the Support Group, I was in the WRAG at the time, and then he wished me well and we left.

I left knowing that I'd been stitched up and that I hadn't had a chance to explain even half of my symptoms and spent the next week to ten days dreading a brown envelope with the decision letter. It finally arrived and I hid it from my wife and couldn't open it until the following day. Fuck me, the DM had placed me in the support group just as the doctor had said he would recommend. There are some good HCP's doing these assessments, though they appear to be in the minority, and I was lucky enough to get one.
These WCA's shouldn't have to come down to a lottery as to whether or not the HCP views your case with a certain amount of empathy and understanding, but it certainly helps. Once again thanks to everyone on this thread, and off it, who have supported me through all this. You know who you are, you fabulous people.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2015)

Libertad so glad its over and you got the right result. Sorry you had to go through all that stress and hope that you feel a little better now. It's good to hear some good news.


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## cesare (Dec 21, 2015)

Good news Libertad


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## cesare (Dec 21, 2015)

I wondered if anyone could point me in the right direction to look at benefits that my friend and her sister are /will be (in theory) entitled to?

My friend is retired but has recently started caring for her younger sister who has developed Alzheimer's. They had the formal diagnosis at the beginning of November.

Her sister is on ESA after exhausting SSP. I believe her employer has now dismissed her for capability.

My friend goes over to here sister's to look after her a few days a week. She is moving to a small town in the New Year and her sister will come and live with her so that my friend can care for her full time.

They've negotiated the medical assessments etc and have now been given the PIP backdated and also the ESA support group (originally they put her in the WRA group  )

I think that her sister has had some help with Council Tax.

When my friend starts caring for her full time, would she get a Carers Allowance? Are there other housing benefits?

Thanks x


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## Greebo (Dec 21, 2015)

cesare said:


> <snip>When my friend starts caring for her full time, would she get a Carers Allowance? Are there other housing benefits?
> 
> Thanks x


CA is reliant on the caree receiving the right level (middle or higher) of the care component of DLA or PIP.  CA is adversely affected by paid work - there's an earnings limit and an hour limit.  CA pushes up the Income Support threshold by roughly £25 (carer premium) which can be useful when it coems to getting council tax benefit and housing benefit.  It also makes it easier to get free/reduce prescriptions, dental care etc.


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## cesare (Dec 21, 2015)

Greebo said:


> CA is reliant on the caree receiving the right level (middle or higher) of the care component of DLA or PIP.  CA is adversely affected by paid work - there's an earnings limit and an hour limit.  CA pushes up the Income Support threshold by roughly £25 (carer premium) which can be useful when it coems to getting council tax benefit and housing benefit.  It also makes it easier to get free/reduce prescriptions, dental care etc.


Thanks Greebo. My friend is retired so not in paid work.


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## Greebo (Dec 21, 2015)

cesare said:


> Thanks Greebo. My friend is retired so not in paid work.


Okay.  In that case, if she's currently receiving only the state pension (and/or pensioner credit) she can't get CA as such, but she still has to put in a claim for it.  She'll get a reply saying that she's not entitled to get CA but does have an underlying entitlement, and this will get her the carer premium.


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## spudulike (Jan 7, 2016)

Libertad said:


> He recorded for six minutes in total and asked me variations of the questions he'd asked earlier, I then realised that he'd been coaching me. He progressed from asking questions to making statements. "It's quite obvious to me that you would experience great difficulty in walking 20 metres and you certainly wouldn't be able to do that repetitively." The assessment was then over, he told me that he would be recommending that I be placed in the Support Group, I was in the WRAG at the time, and then he wished me well and we left.
> 
> I left knowing that I'd been stitched up and that I hadn't had a chance to explain even half of my symptoms and spent the next week to ten days dreading a brown envelope with the decision letter. It finally arrived and I hid it from my wife and couldn't open it until the following day. Fuck me, the DM had placed me in the support group just as the doctor had said he would recommend. There are some good HCP's doing these assessments, though they appear to be in the minority, and I was lucky enough to get one.



Very similar experience when I accompanied my daughter just over a year ago. She was interviewed by a nurse I believe. Medical files/evidence were enough and we were straight e.g. "if she's entitled, she's entitled, if she's not she's not". Interviewer then got us to think hard about all the things she couldn't do - we'd got so used to her being limited it almost seemed normal. For instance she does walk a fair way but medically she's virtually forbidden, she can't use a bus etc. We wouldn't have thought to state that without prodding from the interviewer.

So "coaching"? I'd say it's more "prompting" you to remember everyday things you've got so used to not being able to do you forget to even mention them.

It was 100% honest on both sides, you can get a good one. Daughter got the highest rate.


----------



## yardbird (Jan 8, 2016)

I noticed this today.
Cost effective to have GPs do assessments ?
Disability benefit tests have doubled in cost, says NAO - BBC News


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2016)

yardbird said:


> I noticed this today.
> Cost effective to have GPs do assessments ?
> Disability benefit tests have doubled in cost, says NAO - BBC News



The DWP would never go for it, the reasons being:
1) It wouldn't feed money to their corporate friends, and
2) As far as the DWP are concerned, GPs are dangerous subversives who are likely to actually support patients.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

Appointment letter for PIP "assessment" came through the door today. 12th Feb. Will be phoning them up on Monday to warn them that I'll be recording the assessment - I bought two portable cassette recorders, and a dozen cassettes, plus batteries, last year - and that I'll need to take a taxi there and back. Not looking forward to it, but I've at least got some extra medical evidence since I submitted my claim form, so I can get that on the record, at least.


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## equationgirl (Jan 30, 2016)

Wishing you the best of luck with this, hope it goes OK. Two weeks isn't a lot of notice though. 





ViolentPanda said:


> Appointment letter for PIP "assessment" came through the door today. 12th Feb. Will be phoning them up on Monday to warn them that I'll be recording the assessment - I bought two portable cassette recorders, and a dozen cassettes, plus batteries, last year - and that I'll need to take a taxi there and back. Not looking forward to it, but I've at least got some extra medical evidence since I submitted my claim form, so I can get that on the record, at least.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Wishing you the best of luck with this, hope it goes OK. Two weeks isn't a lot of notice though.



No, it isn't. It's the same amount of time I had to submit my PIP claim, though. The 28 days was somewhat eroded by the 13 days (from the date of the letter saying "you have to submit your application by...") that it took the form to arrive - one reason that I couldn't include everything at the time - a fortnight to root out decades-worth of evidence isn't quick, not even if you're as anal about filing as I am! I had to make such a rush job of the form, that I'm sure it's less coherent than it could have been, given the full 28 days. I did write to my MP (and e-mail him) about the ridiculous policy of sending stuff out 2nd class, but haven't heard a thing from the Blue Labour fuckwad.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 30, 2016)

Well, looking on the bright side,  a less coherent form could work in your favour ViolentPanda


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 30, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Well, looking on the bright side,  a less coherent form could work in your favour ViolentPanda



I have my fingers and toes crossed!


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 31, 2016)

Wishing you all the best VP.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 31, 2016)

and from me


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## StoneRoad (Jan 31, 2016)

best of wishes for Feb 12 ViolentPanda


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## chainsawjob (Feb 1, 2016)

Good luck ViolentPanda, hope it goes as smoothly as it can.


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## Hocus Eye. (Feb 1, 2016)

VioletPanda, good luck with that assessment.


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## spirals (Feb 2, 2016)

Bugger, got a letter today telling me I need to claim PIP. Does anyone know how long the waiting time is for them to make the decision, I was told 12 to 16 weeks to get a medical assessment


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## Greebo (Feb 2, 2016)

spirals said:


> Bugger, got a letter today telling me I need to claim PIP. Does anyone know how long the waiting time is for them to make the decision <snip>


No idea, sorry.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2016)

spirals said:


> Bugger, got a letter today telling me I need to claim PIP. Does anyone know how long the waiting time is for them to make the decision, I was told 12 to 16 weeks to get a medical assessment



I got the letter on 13th November. I phoned them as requested, and apparently couldn't do a phone claim because they only have space for 2 different ailments on their programme. They said "we'll send you a form, but it has to be returned in 28 days".
What they didn't say was "that's 28 days from your telephone call, sucker!"
Imagine my consternation when the form turned up on 27th November, with the words "return by 14th December or you may lose your DLA" printed on it. Yep, had to fill out the entire fucking thing *and* send it back in 2 bloody weeks! 

As for waiting time, here in south London, my assessment date is mid-Feb, so roughly 8 weeks from return of form to Atos appointment. They then reckon that a result takes 4-8 weeks.


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## spirals (Feb 2, 2016)

Thanks ViolentPanda, I'm in Surrey so I'm guessing it will be around the same.


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## redcogs (Feb 5, 2016)

You have my total solidarity and very best wishes for the 12th ViolentPanda.


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## redcogs (Feb 5, 2016)

Here is my brief situation.  i've been on a DLA 'lifetime award' since the late 1980's.  Medical condition is a mangled leg walking disability (which resulted from a RTA in the 1960s), and a heart condition (heart attack and bi pass surgery) since 2000.  

 i'm 64, and pensionable in July this year (ie 5 months away).  

The PIP people seem to be leaving my assessment until the very last moment.  i'm hoping beyond hope that i've got under the wire by some accident, but i'm also panicking in case i lose my vehicle.

Anyone care to comment or offer advice?


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 5, 2016)

Nothing practical to offer - but I wish you well and hope they delay bothering you. What a waste of tax payers money it would be to put you through a stressful process when you only have 5 months of claim left. Lets hope they don't bother.


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## toggle (Feb 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I got the letter on 13th November. I phoned them as requested, and apparently *couldn't do a phone claim because they only have space for 2 different ailments on their programme*. They said "we'll send you a form, but it has to be returned in 28 days".
> What they didn't say was "that's 28 days from your telephone call, sucker!"
> Imagine my consternation when the form turned up on 27th November, with the words "return by 14th December or you may lose your DLA" printed on it. Yep, had to fill out the entire fucking thing *and* send it back in 2 bloody weeks!
> 
> As for waiting time, here in south London, my assessment date is mid-Feb, so roughly 8 weeks from return of form to Atos appointment. They then reckon that a result takes 4-8 weeks.



i'll bare that in mind and make sure we have the folder ready for when his happens. 

hopefully our fucking awesome gp will repeat sending out the letter that they took one look at and gave up on the idea of reasessing him for his dla


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## toggle (Feb 6, 2016)

redcogs said:


> Here is my brief situation.  i've been on a DLA 'lifetime award' since the late 1980's.  Medical condition is a mangled leg walking disability (which resulted from a RTA in the 1960s), and a heart condition (heart attack and bi pass surgery) since 2000.
> 
> i'm 64, and pensionable in July this year (ie 5 months away).
> 
> ...




don't get upset about anything until it happens.

but do be prepared. make sure you have all the stuff you will need to do the application together.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 12, 2016)

That was not much fun, physically. 40 minutes in south London rush-hour traffic, over seemingly every pothole and speedbump in Lambeth, then two hours being "assessed" by a nice enough bloke - but whose medical skills were obviously either theoretical or well-atrophied - while sitting on a chair that was about as conducive to someone with lower back problems sitting comfortably, as a sack full of rocks. He "tested" my memory by asking me to recall three items he showed me, and had me name (doing it properly, like at the memory clinic I attended, takes half a dozen different tests, each one including about 50 "questions"/puzzles). He then did manual resistance tests on my muscles, but did them in a "meh" sort of manner. A 30 minute journey home, over most of the same bumps and potholes, followed.
The saving grace of it all was Greebo, who didn't let him get away with anything, even when I was flagging. 

Oh yeah, latest euphemism for an Atos assessor is "disability analyst".  He flinched and dissembled when Greebo asked his actual medical qualification/field right at the end of the assessment.

So, supposedly I'll hear in "4 to 8 weeks" whether I get spit-roasted or not.


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## teqniq (Feb 12, 2016)

Blimey well best wishes with it all.


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## superfly101 (Feb 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> He "tested" my memory by asking me to recall three items he showed me, and had me name (doing it properly, like at the memory clinic I attended, takes half a dozen different tests, each one including about 50 "questions"/puzzles



The CMHT @ 332 Brixton Road test for me 2 years ago was counting down in 11s from 120..... speaks volumes that service cuts now mean that the good old ATOS/Maximus assessment criteria is being adopted through out...... thank fuck for UNUM (satire)

Hope you don't have to appeal but win rates are 60%+ for PIP so... although nothing to celibate....

Also watch out for a periodic review when on PIP. For whatever fucking reason they want outside of the "proposed" length before review date of your award.

Like ESA reviews these seam to be occuring right after a HMCTS appeal win!


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## equationgirl (Feb 13, 2016)

Blimey. Hope you and Greebo are OK after that marathon of an assessment ViolentPanda.


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## Greebo (Feb 13, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Blimey. Hope you and Greebo are OK after that marathon of an assessment ViolentPanda.


Thanks, just knackered, which is why neither of us were online much yesterday.  And VP's relapsed a bit, as can be expected after a ridiculously early morning start (had to leave here shortly after 8am to be in Vauxhall for 9am) followed by that ordeal.

Now comes the waiting...


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## redcogs (Feb 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That was not much fun, physically. 40 minutes in south London rush-hour traffic, over seemingly every pothole and speedbump in Lambeth, then two hours being "assessed" by a nice enough bloke - but whose medical skills were obviously either theoretical or well-atrophied - while sitting on a chair that was about as conducive to someone with lower back problems sitting comfortably, as a sack full of rocks. He "tested" my memory by asking me to recall three items he showed me, and had me name (doing it properly, like at the memory clinic I attended, takes half a dozen different tests, each one including about 50 "questions"/puzzles). He then did manual resistance tests on my muscles, but did them in a "meh" sort of manner. A 30 minute journey home, over most of the same bumps and potholes, followed.
> The saving grace of it all was Greebo, who didn't let him get away with anything, even when I was flagging.
> 
> Oh yeah, latest euphemism for an Atos assessor is "disability analyst".  He flinched and dissembled when Greebo asked his actual medical qualification/field right at the end of the assessment.
> ...



In my most vivid dreams we turn the tables on the scum who are engaged in harassing the less fortunate.  i see all the best Urbanites controlling the spotlights, formulating the questions, and then posing them: 

"Can you remember when you decided to become a bullying intimidator of people with disabilities and illnesses"?? 

"Can you tell us whose interests you thought you were serving  as you actively engaged in punishing people for being poor, or ill, or less abled, or probably all three"??

"Will you explain to the panel how you became so devoid of basic humanity"??

"Any failure to offer satisfactorily convincing answers will result in an appropriate term of penal servitude (with hard labour)".

i know dreaming alters nothing, but sometimes it can seem that there is little else to hold on to.  Still, its fantastic that there are so many decent people here who are prepared to offer practical support and encouragement - brilliant comrades all.  i'm hoping for a good outcome for you VP.


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## superfly101 (Feb 13, 2016)

redcogs said:


> In my most vivid dreams we turn the tables on the scum who are engaged in harassing the less fortunate.  i see all the best Urbanites controlling the spotlights, formulating the questions, and then posing them:
> 
> "Can you remember when you decided to become a bullying intimidator of people with disabilities and illnesses"??
> 
> ...




MegaDeath  

Like Whitesnake but on heavy metal acid


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## Greebo (Feb 19, 2016)

redcogs said:


> In my most vivid dreams we turn the tables on the scum who are engaged in harassing the less fortunate.  i see all the best Urbanites controlling the spotlights, formulating the questions, and then posing them <snip>


Reposting this postcard in a moment of frivolity:


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## dynamicbaddog (Feb 29, 2016)

Fed up
After my last medical in November 2014 I was awarded contributory based ESA as a full time student. This only lasts for a year , so on Nov 12th of last year I filled in the required form and sent them all the evidence of my income in order to get income based ESA.  Its now nearly March and I still haven't had my claim processed.Last time I chased them up I was told it had been approved by a decision maker but they couldn't activate it as it has been send to another office for processing due to a backlog at their end, they don't know when this will be sorted. I probably won't get much anyway  because they now take my student maintenance grant into account, but I still need to be in receipt of it because it has an effect on my housing benefit.
And today I got an ESA50 in the post so I have another medical looming....


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, supposedly I'll hear in "4 to 8 weeks" whether I get spit-roasted or not.



In reality, less than 3 weeks.

I've been awarded standard rate "Daily Living" component, and enhanced rate "Mobility" component. The award is until 2020.
It's less than my DLA (£28pw lower), which was high rate Care and high rate Mobility components, but Greebo can still claim Carer's Allowance/Carer Premium (which protects her from JobcentrePlus's tender mercies, thank fuck!
Now I need to decide whether to appeal or not.


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## equationgirl (Mar 2, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> In reality, less than 3 weeks.
> 
> I've been awarded standard rate "Daily Living" component, and enhanced rate "Mobility" component. The award is until 2020.
> It's less than my DLA (£28pw lower), which was high rate Care and high rate Mobility components, but Greebo can still claim Carer's Allowance/Carer Premium (which protects her from JobcentrePlus's tender mercies, thank fuck!
> Now I need to decide whether to appeal or not.


on the one hand, of course, but on the other hand, it draws the whole thing out, so I understand you seriously thinking about. Personally I think taking money like this from those who need it most is abhorrent.


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## yardbird (Mar 3, 2016)

I've not been checking here lately.
I didn't realise that they could attack DLA.
ViolentPanda that sucks!
I think that because I'm 68 I may not be effected so badly.
I just had a brown envelope.
It starts in caps -
ABOUT THE GENERAL INCREASES IN BENEFITS.
then an "explanation"
letter ends with " we apologise for any distress caused"!!!
I'm £5.14 per week worse off FFS!

Waiting for the next brown  envelope.


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## passenger (Mar 3, 2016)

hi guys just been told by JSA that i might need to sine   on every day 
or do volunteer work miles away witch i can`t do due my leg. so i have 
come of JSA back onto ESA  i hope im doing the right thing they need a fit note  
witch i will get tomorrow morning, my doctors not been able to see me due to 1/2 day yesterday 
and no appointments today any ideas of help thanks troops. a worried passenger


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## Greebo (Mar 3, 2016)

(((yardbird))) and (((passenger))) the system stinks so much that sometimes the biggest possible act of resistance is remaining alive.


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## StoneRoad (Mar 3, 2016)

Greebo said:


> (((yardbird))) and (((passenger))) the system stinks so much that sometimes the biggest possible act of resistance is remaining alive.


Can't *like* that - but the sentiment I agree with - keep on keeping on and I hope for more strength the shield and sword arms. I wish that there was more I could do to help ...


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## equationgirl (Mar 3, 2016)

passenger said:


> hi guys just been told by JSA that i might need to sine   on every day
> or do volunteer work miles away witch i can`t do due my leg. so i have
> come of JSA back onto ESA  i hope im doing the right thing they need a fit note
> witch i will get tomorrow morning, my doctors not been able to see me due to 1/2 day yesterday
> and no appointments today any ideas of help thanks troops. a worried passenger


I think that getting the fit note and submitting it is all you can do at the moment. Can you start a new ESA claim?


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## passenger (Mar 3, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I think that getting the fit note and submitting it is all you can do at the moment. Can you start a new ESA claim?


thats what the jobcentre said i should do i think it should be ok things have changed more
powerfull medication more pain etc its my only choice... been of ESA for 4 months


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## yardbird (Mar 15, 2016)

Brown envelope a thick one.
Read it all now and on the last page.
If you are 65 years and over you will have no need to claim PIP.
You'll continue to get DLA, as long as your circumstances don't change. (That'll be death then  )

I had to let you know that I've now got it in writing and shall sleep better.
The basis of this all goes back to the way I approached my dealings with ATOS.
So a result and no more assessments, just self assessment.
I wanted this thread to know.


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## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2016)

Yay yardbird


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## yardbird (Mar 16, 2016)

I like to think that I've been of help from time to time.
I started the shitstorm about the recording. 
They told me that they had to have two techs to "calibrate" the recording gear. I told them that I used to operate a 16 channel mixing desk and you do not have to calibrate any dual recording machine, that's a lie.
Then I sussed that they were charging the gov for bollox.
Then thanks to urban I gave the assessor a "worst day".
" yes I'm yardie. Your name and qualifications please ?" I can't/won't tell you.
Then the long drawn out crap started.
I was a lot younger then.
I shall still be back here to see how everyone is getting on and I might just stick my oar in from time to time.
Thanks for all the help.


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## equationgirl (Mar 16, 2016)

You gave some fab input about recording devices yardbird


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## yardbird (Mar 18, 2016)

Breaking Breaking
Iain Duncan Smith quits over planned disability benefit changes - BBC News


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## equationgirl (Mar 18, 2016)




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## Libertad (Mar 18, 2016)

yardbird said:


> Breaking Breaking
> Iain Duncan Smith quits over planned disability benefit changes - BBC News



Left his job voluntarily eh? No Job Seekers Allowance for him then.


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## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2016)

It's that time of life again. Got the brown envelope the other day to say my DLA was ending and would I like to claim PIP (as if there's any choice )

Where have the last 4 years gone?


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## yardbird (Mar 21, 2016)

Sorry  to hear about the brown envelope WouldBe


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## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> It's that time of life again. Got the brown envelope the other day to say my DLA was ending and would I like to claim PIP (as if there's any choice )
> 
> Where have the last 4 years gone?


I'd be tempted to just double-check the dates. Just to make sure you really are at the end date they claim. We're here to help if you need it x


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I'd be tempted to just double-check the dates. Just to make sure you really are at the end date they claim. We're here to help if you need it x


Cheers.
I've got to dig out the paperwork from my last DLA claim to help fill this in. The date will be in there somewhere.

I could have sworn the DLA didn't run out until July but I've got a memory like a sieve so who knows


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## spirals (Mar 22, 2016)

I've been told to apply for PIP 5 months before my DLA award runs out, when I queried it I got told they are migrating a lot of people now and the time your DLA award runs out doesn't matter.


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## equationgirl (Mar 22, 2016)

There's also anecdotal evidence that people on long-term awards were being requested to reapply long before they were due to.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> There's also anecdotal evidence that people on long-term awards were being requested to reapply long before they were due to.



I had an indefinite DLA award, and was "requested" to apply for PIP in November last year.


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## equationgirl (Mar 23, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I had an indefinite DLA award, and was "requested" to apply for PIP in November last year.


Let's face it, it's not really a request -it's more of a demand or order.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Let's face it, it's not really a request -it's more of a demand or order.



Yep.
I'm currently burning the tape recordings I made during the "assessment" in January into mp3s, so that I can send a CD along with other evidence for my "Mandatory Reconsideration", as they stiffed me for about £30 a week, and appear to have not actually considered that because I'm able to hear and interact well in a small room with two people talking consecutively, I can do so in other peopled environments. I know there's a risk of them revising the award *downward*, but letting them get away with rolling me down to the equivalent of medium-rate care when I was on high care and high mobility isn't on the cards!


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## WouldBe (Apr 3, 2016)

Had a letter the other day from the DLA dept to say my DLA expires in late July. 

What's that website again that provides info about filling in these forms?

Cheers


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## Greebo (Apr 3, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> <snip>What's that website again that provides info about filling in these forms?
> 
> Cheers


Benefits and work.  Home  Yes, a lot of the stuff can only be got after subscribing, but it really could save you a lot of money if it helps you get the result you need.


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## WouldBe (Apr 4, 2016)

Done. I think. Not sure if payment has been accepted for the subscription though.


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## Greebo (Apr 4, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Done. I think. Not sure if payment has been accepted for the subscription though.


If you need something from that site urgently, PM ViolentPanda with your email and he'll be able to forward something onto you - his subscription is still current (I think).


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## WouldBe (Apr 5, 2016)

Greebo said:


> If you need something from that site urgently, PM ViolentPanda with your email and he'll be able to forward something onto you - his subscription is still current (I think).


Cheers. Subscription has gone through so I've now got access. Just need to find the energy to wade through it all and fill the form in. 

Some strange point scorings on there. You get 2 points(?) if you can't put your trousers on but 8 points if you can't put your top on. I'd rather go around topless than naked from the waist down.


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## WouldBe (Apr 7, 2016)

Woops. Looks like I've cocked this up before I've even started filling in the form. 
Benefits and work say you can get extra time to fill the form in if you have memory loss problems when asked when you phone up to claim PIP. When I phoned up they didn't specifically mention memory problems so I said no to things like dementia, learning problems etc. (as I can take things far too literally these days)

Is it too late to ask for extra time to fill the form in as it's due back by the 14th April?


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## ShiftyBagLady (Apr 7, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Woops. Looks like I've cocked this up before I've even started filling in the form.
> Benefits and work say you can get extra time to fill the form in if you have memory loss problems when asked when you phone up to claim PIP. When I phoned up they didn't specifically mention memory problems so I said no to things like dementia, learning problems etc. (as I can take things far too literally these days)
> 
> Is it too late to ask for extra time to fill the form in as it's due back by the 14th April?


It wouldn't hurt to ask. Especially if you say that you underestimated how difficult you would find filling the form in.
Do you have anybody that might be able to help you do it?


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## equationgirl (Apr 7, 2016)

I'd ask for extra time WouldBe especially if they didn't clearly specify memory problems.


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## WouldBe (Apr 9, 2016)

Phoned them yesterday and got a 2 week extension. Cheers.


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## Celyn (Apr 9, 2016)

Oh well done!   	Happy for you. I have just been facing up to the big scary form. Finished it. Now telling myself it doesn't count until I manage to go out and post it. Hmm.


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## Greebo (Apr 9, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Oh well done!   	Happy for you. I have just been facing up to the big scary form. Finished it. Now telling myself it doesn't count until I manage to go out and post it. Hmm.


No point posting it before Monday as you won't be able to send it "signed for" if the post office is shut.

Congrats on tackling it and finishing filling it in.


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## Celyn (Apr 9, 2016)

In all seriousness, I like that idea. I've had such a messed-up sleeping pattern, and in such a worry about the thing that now it is done (badly, but done) I ought to try to go out and post it but I would probably lose it or trip over a pavement and break my neck.  Maybe enough achievement for one morning. Bad that I didn't go out to demo but oh well, I jsut can't.


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## equationgirl (Apr 9, 2016)

Celyn said:


> In all seriousness, I like that idea. I've had such a messed-up sleeping pattern, and in such a worry about the thing that now it is done (badly, but done) I ought to try to go out and post it but I would probably lose it or trip over a pavement and break my neck.  Maybe enough achievement for one morning. Bad that I didn't go out to demo but oh well, I jsut can't.


If you can't,  you can't.  don't be too hard on yourself for the things you can't do.


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## Celyn (Apr 9, 2016)

I have decided, thanks to Greebo 's mention of "signed for" that I needn't try to post it today. Anyway, it would likely be a repeat of when I tried to post a card for my niece's 18th.  Much misery getting to postbox and could not find sodding card.    It reappeared a week or so later. I don't think my brother believed I really had a card but I can't help it if there is a portable Narnia in my backpack.

Very chuffed for WouldBe , though, I'm glad to know they can be nice on occasion.


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## existentialist (Apr 11, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Bad that I didn't go out to demo but oh well, I jsut can't.


Sometimes we have to prioritise, and that can mean not doing something we wanted to do (or felt we ought to do). But I am sure you made the right decision, and there's no point second-guessing it now!


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 11, 2016)

Intesting programme on tv C4 the Great Benefits Row with Ade Adepitan about PIP payment assessments now


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## WouldBe (Apr 21, 2016)

Finally finished the form I think. Should be able to get it in the post this afternoon and send it recorded. 

According to the B&W self assessment test I should get 37 points for care and 20 for mobility  What's the betting DWP score me nowhere near that?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Finally finished the form I think. Should be able to get it in the post this afternoon and send it recorded.
> 
> According to the B&W self assessment test I should get 37 points for care and 20 for mobility  What's the betting DWP score me nowhere near that?



No bet! My scorings using the self-assessment test were similar, and I was awarded 9 for care (currently undergoing "Mandatory Reconsideration"), and 12 for mobility.


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## Celt (Apr 23, 2016)

I need to come and search this thread, transferring from indefinite dla award and invited to apply for PIp, I have (had) low rate care high level mobility.  Chronic pain which. I've been managing without much intervention for 20 years so hAve little or no evidence.


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## equationgirl (Apr 23, 2016)

Celt said:


> I need to come and search this thread, transferring from indefinite dla award and invited to apply for PIp, I have (had) low rate care high level mobility.  Chronic pain which. I've been managing without much intervention for 20 years so hAve little or no evidence.


I'd speak to your gp about a letter from them with details of your meds, and a potential referral to a pain management specialist. Even if they can't do anything at least you can get it documented.

How long do you have to put the application together?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2016)

Celt said:


> I need to come and search this thread, transferring from indefinite dla award and invited to apply for PIp, I have (had) low rate care high level mobility.  Chronic pain which. I've been managing without much intervention for 20 years so hAve little or no evidence.



Lack of current medical evidence *shouldn't* make any difference, if your condition is long-term.

That said, some decision-makers/adjudication officers - the people at the DWP who read the report by the "disability analyst" who conducted your assessment, along with your application etc - seem to base everything on current medical evidence.

As equationgirl has said, try and get a GP letter that emphasises what your condition is, that your condition is stable, but permanent, and that you're medicated. As for the PIP form, bear in mind that you have 28 days to return it, but that the 28 days *starts*on the day you phone to ask them to send you the form. Mine arrived a fortnight into the 28 days.
With regards to filling the bastard thing in, PM me an e-mail address, and I'll send you the current "Benefits & Work" guides to how to phrase your answers - as with DLA forms, it's a case of being detailed, and allowing the adjudication officer no "wriggle room" to interpret your answer in a different way than you meant it.


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## equationgirl (Apr 23, 2016)

Too many 'disability analysts' seem to misunderstand chronic conditions and assume that if you haven't seen a medic in a while then your condition must have gone away. They don't seem to understand that for people with such conditions this just means the medics can't do anything productive - or in some cases have just given up because the patient isn't conforming to textbooks and they don't know what to do.

There's still the view that doctors can fix any and all medical problems,  and as many of us know, that's just not the case.


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## Libertad (Apr 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Too many 'disability analysts' seem to misunderstand chronic conditions and assume that if you haven't seen a medic in a while then your condition must have gone away. They don't seem to understand that for people with such conditions this just means the medics can't do anything productive - or in some cases have just given up because the patient isn't conforming to textbooks and they don't know what to do.
> 
> There's still the view that doctors can fix any and all medical problems,  and as many of us know, that's just not the case.



Too true especially when there are undocumented long-term side effects of a treatment programme.


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## friendofdorothy (Apr 23, 2016)

Celt said:


> I need to come and search this thread, transferring from indefinite dla award and invited to apply for PIp, I have (had) low rate care high level mobility.  Chronic pain which. I've been managing without much intervention for 20 years so have little or no evidence.


I don't think theres any guidance on how recent your evidence has to be. Have you got any letters /presciptions / hospital documents from the last 20 years? Any stuff from when you were awarded indefinite DLA? Dig it out now. 
We took all medical letters from the last 10yrs with us, I'd copied all the significant ones and made Atos take them as evidence at the interview. We didn't have much recent evidence either - in fact we moaned about the lack of any nhs help.


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## equationgirl (Apr 23, 2016)

And some NHS doctors have the view that 'it's just pain, live with it'. Which is so spectacularly unhelpful I just can't begin to describe it. And I've had that said to me in the last 12 months.


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## Celt (Apr 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I'd speak to your gp about a letter from them with details of your meds, and a potential referral to a pain management specialist. Even if they can't do anything at least you can get it documented.
> 
> How long do you have to put the application together?



It has to be in for May 15th,   I'm going away on the 8th  for my 60th birthday and I would like to have it in by then.

I am seen regularly by the pain management clinic, and I think he probably has the best overview of me.

I think they will disallow the mobility component,  I got that on appeal originally but I'm sure they will try and sop it before I reach whatever the age is now, 65 I think,  if your have mobility allowance you keep it but you cannot apply after 65 - I think

I need to find my esa documents as there were reports made for that,   I got support group after going to appeal, you folk helped me in that.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 24, 2016)

Celt said:


> I think they will disallow the mobility component,  I got that on appeal originally but I'm sure they will try and sop it before I reach whatever the age is now, 65 I think, * if your have mobility allowance you keep it but you cannot apply after 65 - I think*



That's correct.


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## equationgirl (Apr 24, 2016)

Celt said:


> It has to be in for May 15th,   I'm going away on the 8th  for my 60th birthday and I would like to have it in by then.
> 
> I am seen regularly by the pain management clinic, and I think he probably has the best overview of me.
> 
> ...


In that case I'd definitely ask the pain management clinic for a letter if you can, even if it's not back in time to put it with your application you will still have it in case of appeals.

Best of luck with, you know we'll help if you need it x


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## existentialist (Apr 25, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Too many 'disability analysts' seem to misunderstand chronic conditions


Of course, they're not really "misunderstanding" it at all. This reeks of the same kind of "find any excuse to disallow the claim" thinking we're seeing across the board on disability *and* unemployment.

This is a cynical and callous interpretation, designed to do no more than make it even more difficult for people to successfully claim benefits they are, on the face of things, perfectly entitled to.


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## Celt (Apr 27, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> In that case I'd definitely ask the pain management clinic for a letter if you can, even if it's not back in time to put it with your application you will still have it in case of appeals.
> 
> Best of luck with, you know we'll help if you need it x


I have an appointment with the pain management clinic next wednesday and have been asked to take my forms,  I am a volunteer and a trustee o a local mental health charity and I have asked our director of service for a supportive letter and the gp surgery is sorting a brief resume of my medical records.

I have been doing lots of reading of works and beneits site and am going to do the forms this weekend.

The date my forms need to be in is a sunday - so I presume I need to get it in on the  Friday?? The monday would have been helpful but if it has to be the 15th I will do it.


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## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2016)

Celt said:


> I have an appointment with the pain management clinic next wednesday and have been asked to take my forms,  I am a volunteer and a trustee o a local mental health charity and I have asked our director of service for a supportive letter and the gp surgery is sorting a brief resume of my medical records.
> 
> I have been doing lots of reading of works and beneits site and am going to do the forms this weekend.
> 
> The date my forms need to be in is a sunday - so I presume I need to get it in on the  Friday?? The monday would have been helpful but if it has to be the 15th I will do it.


Tricky one. Many government offices will accept on the next working day but with this lot I wouldn't bank on it without checking first.


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## Celt (May 5, 2016)

I have been working on this and have almost got it ready to go,  I hae been using the benifits and work guides, which were the most up to date available but I know the distances for "can you move/walk unaided without pain have changed - the guide is dated  Version 1 January 2013 and I was going to go for 





> c. Can stand and then move unaided more than 20 metres but no more than 50 metres. 8 points.]


 but I am concerned that those distances may not be correct anymore. Help anyone.?


----------



## equationgirl (May 5, 2016)

Paging ViolentPanda when available


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## Greebo (May 5, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Paging ViolentPanda when available


Oops - forgot this is publicly viewable.

I'll ask him when I can, but for now Celt, if in doubt, pick the shorter distance.


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## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2016)

Celt said:


> I have been working on this and have almost got it ready to go,  I hae been using the benifits and work guides, which were the most up to date available but I know the distances for "can you move/walk unaided without pain have changed - the guide is dated  Version 1 January 2013 and I was going to go for  but I am concerned that those distances may not be correct anymore. Help anyone.?



Two things:
1) It's down to a max of 20m from 50m. If you can walk more than 20m without a break/assistance/pain, then as far as the assessor is concerned, you won't meet the criteria
2) If it's the case that you experience pain from the act of walking itself (and from what I recall of your mobility problems, that's the case), then emphasise this.The whole "move/walk unaided for _X_ distance *without pain*" thing is a con, because they're depending on people answering it in a stoical manner along the lines of "I can manage _X_ distance". They'll only read as far as "I can manage" - as far as they're concerned, you're telling them that your mobility problems are manageable without assistance.


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## Greebo (May 5, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> <snip> If it's the case that you experience pain from the act of walking itself (and from what I recall of your mobility problems, that's the case), then emphasise this.The whole "move/walk unaided for _X_ distance *without pain*" thing is a con, because they're depending on people answering it in a stoical manner along the lines of "I can manage _X_ distance". They'll only read as far as "I can manage" - as far as they're concerned, you're telling them that your mobility problems are manageable without assistance.


IMHO it is just as important that when you see the so-called disability assessor, you answer "not without..." and "not unless..." instead of "yes but...".  

This is one bit on which VP fell down.


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## Celt (May 6, 2016)

Just to be really clear are you saying the following is no longer the case?   
_
"Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 metres but no more than 50
metres. 10 points"(from Benefits and Work"_

This is what I have said and this is what I believe to be my true ability, I have said that I am in some pain all the time I have completed the form and it has gone to The Director of Services at the mental health charity I volunteer for, for him to make a statement about how my condition affects my life and to post it for me.

Its done now,


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## Greebo (May 6, 2016)

Celt said:


> Just to be really clear are you saying the following is no longer the case?
> <snip>Its done now,


If it's done now then there's no point worrying at it (or about it), is there?  VP's now offline for the night and has a physio appt tomorrow morning.

Here's hoping that you get the result you need.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2016)

Celt said:


> Just to be really clear are you saying the following is no longer the case?
> _
> "Can stand and then move using an aid or appliance more than 20 metres but no more than 50
> metres. 10 points"(from Benefits and Work"_
> ...



They pretty much only pay attention to the 20m bit. One of the reasons they paid the mobility component without quibble in my case was that it was obvious that I couldn't move even 20 metres without aids, and without stopping.

Thing is, you *should* get the mobility component on the above criteria, but they're likely to try buzzing you off with "but you can walk 20m, therefore...", forcing you to ask for a Mandatory Reconsideration. Or - who knows - your decision-maker may be one of the minority of decent ones.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (May 11, 2016)

Well pissed off atm. I was due to be transferred from contributory rate ESA to  income related  in November. However since submitting  the form back then I  have'nt heard a thing from them. Situation is complicated because as a full time student they have to take my grants/loans into account. I phoned them back in February and was told it was all still being processed. Was too busy with coursework/ exam revision to follow it up,  but now that is all out of the way I rang them yesturday to check what the situation was.  They rang back to tell me that due to an overload of work at their office they send all my paperwork to another office to process, however that office has lost it all and I will be required to fill out and submit the orginal form I sent them in November complete with evidence so they can start processing my claim all over again.
Not only that but  my medical to review my claim is due this Monday in Balham at 9am. I wanted to take two of my friends with me as I feel both of them would be able to provide the interviewer with  various different insights into my condition, but I have been told I can only bring one other person into the interview room with me. Not looking forward to this at all...


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2016)

dynamicbaddog said:


> Well pissed off atm. I was due to be transferred from contributory rate ESA to  income related  in November. However since submitting  the form back then I  have'nt heard a thing from them. Situation is complicated because as a full time student they have to take my grants/loans into account. I phoned them back in February and was told it was all still being processed. Was too busy with coursework/ exam revision to follow it up,  but now that is all out of the way I rang them yesturday to check what the situation was.  They rang back to tell me that due to an overload of work at their office they send all my paperwork to another office to process, however that office has lost it all and I will be required to fill out and submit the orginal form I sent them in November complete with evidence so they can start processing my claim all over again.
> Not only that but  my medical to review my claim is due this Monday in Balham at 9am. I wanted to take two of my friends with me as I feel both of them would be able to provide the interviewer with  various different insights into my condition, but I have been told I can only bring one other person into the interview room with me. Not looking forward to this at all...


Could you get both of them to write a short statement that you could give to the assessor?

Also, bit cheeky of them to ask for the documentation again when they've lost it. Doesn't inspire confidence.


----------



## dynamicbaddog (May 16, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Could you get both of them to write a short statement that you could give to the assessor?
> 
> .


yes that is what I did in the end. I took one of my friends in with me and got the other one to write something. It was a bit chaotic at the start, there was someone else in the waiting room with the same surname, they called him in got halfway through his interview before realising they were talking to the wrong person so they send him back out and called us in.  My mate did most of the talking, I spend most of the interview seated behind the back of her computer screen, cowering in terror
Dunno what the outcome will be, she spend a long time asking me about my bi polar diagnosis and my medication. Could tell she was trying to catch me out at times,  like when I was asked about food and replied that sometimes I skip meals and have coffee instead she seemed to be making a thing about the fact I can make hot drinks..
She was typing quite a lot throughout the interview and I think she was taking us seriously. At the beginning of the interview she said I may have to do some physical tests but at the end she said she had enough information and would skip all that and told me to go home. not to worry and relax.
Just have to wait for the result now I suppose...


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> No bet! My scorings using the self-assessment test were similar, and I was awarded 9 for care (currently undergoing "Mandatory Reconsideration"), and 12 for mobility.



So, "Mandatory Reconsideration" result arrived last week, and didn't reference *any* of the points I made about why I considered the original award incorrect, and maintained the original award. Next step: Read up on the appeal process, and then appeal.


----------



## Libertad (May 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> So, "Mandatory Reconsideration" result arrived last week, and didn't reference *any* of the points I made about why I considered the original award incorrect, and maintained the original award. Next step: Read up on the appeal process, and then appeal.



Sorry to hear that VP.


----------



## pogo 10 (May 16, 2016)

Good luck everyone, still waiting on a decision. Went for my esa assessment 2 months ago so the reply is due.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Sorry to hear that VP.



It'snot *too* bad, as the original award was "only" £30 a week less, so we're not under too much financial pressure, yet.
The annoyance is that they pretty much state that because I wasn't incoherent or having problems communicating during the assessment, that I can't have communications problems, even though I've made it clear in my application, during my assessment and in my request for "reconsideration" that I can handle 1-on-1 fine if it's conducted somewhere quiet and I have the opportunity to lip-read the person talking to me. If it isn't like that, or involves lots of extraneous noise, I'm fucked, as all the noise sources bleed together (google "one-sided deafness, head-shadow effect" for a decent explanation) and I'm unable to separate them, even with total concentration on lip-reading. Factor in my short-term memory problems as well, and I either don't hear or understand stuff, or I forget it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2016)

pogo 10 said:


> Good luck everyone, still waiting on a decision. Went for my esa assessment 2 months ago so the reply is due.



Good luck. I'll keep my fingers crossed!


----------



## pogo 10 (May 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Good luck. I'll keep my fingers crossed!


Thanks vp, good luck for you too.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 16, 2016)

I got my ESA50 the end of April.   I've bunged it on the shelf.  Every time I look at it I go into a blind panic.  I know I'll have to deal with it soon.	It's due back by 30th May.  Fucking hell....


----------



## Greebo (May 16, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> I got my ESA50 the end of April.   I've bunged it on the shelf.  Every time I look at it I go into a blind panic.  I know I'll have to deal with it soon.	It's due back by 30th May.  Fucking hell....


Okay, first thing, go and brew up.  Then sit down and drink it.  Seriously.

Then start with just filling in your name, DOB, NI, and address - the easy stuff first.  Then another cuppa or short break to relax.

Then come back to it.  Don't try to do it all in one go, short bursts are far more bearable.

You can do this.  PM VP etc if need be.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 16, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Okay, first thing, go and brew up.  Then sit down and drink it.  Seriously.
> 
> Then start with just filling in your name, DOB, NI, and address - the easy stuff first.  Then another cuppa or short break to relax.
> 
> ...


Cheers.  I will do that.  Slowly slowly catchy money.  Shit.	Why do they have to do this to us.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 16, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Cheers.  I will do that.  Slowly slowly catchy money.  Shit.	Why do they have to do this to us.



Because *they're uncaring wankers who are only interested in "cutting the welfare bill".

*Party politicians.

P.S. As Greebo says, feel free to PM me. Disability/long-term sickness benefits forms are seriously draining, and a bit of help can make the difference.


----------



## xsunnysuex (May 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> P.S. As Greebo says, feel free to PM me. Disability/long-term sickness benefits forms are seriously draining, and a bit of help can make the difference.


Thank you.   I may take you up on your kind offer.  Gotta get my head around this soon.   x


----------



## equationgirl (May 16, 2016)

Sorry to hear about your mandatory consideration ViolentPanda bunch of wankers.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 16, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Cheers.  I will do that.  Slowly slowly catchy money.  Shit.	Why do they have to do this to us.


Good sound advice from Greebo. Its too much for most people to do in one sitting - even if you don't find it daunting or utterly panic inducing. 

Pleased do look at it as soon as you can - because if you need help or need someone to do it for you the sooner you ask for that help the better.  Do you have a friend / family member / someone supportive who can take a look at with you?

So at least have a read of it, if only to decide - do I need help from a charity/advice organisation to fill this in, do you need to book an appointment somewhere for that help? 

Deep breath. Hope you are ok.


----------



## Celyn (May 16, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> I got my ESA50 the end of April.   I've bunged it on the shelf.  Every time I look at it I go into a blind panic.  I know I'll have to deal with it soon.	It's due back by 30th May.  Fucking hell....


Do it in bite-sized chunks, as others have said. And don't be like me and hide from it till the last minute. Fingers crossed for you.


----------



## Celyn (May 16, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> It'snot *too* bad, as the original award was "only" £30 a week less, so we're not under too much financial pressure, yet.
> The annoyance is that they pretty much state that because I wasn't incoherent or having problems communicating during the assessment, that I can't have communications problems, even though I've made it clear in my application, during my assessment and in my request for "reconsideration" that I can handle 1-on-1 fine if it's conducted somewhere quiet and I have the opportunity to lip-read the person talking to me. If it isn't like that, or involves lots of extraneous noise, I'm fucked, as all the noise sources bleed together (google "one-sided deafness, head-shadow effect" for a decent explanation) and I'm unable to separate them, even with total concentration on lip-reading. Factor in my short-term memory problems as well, and I either don't hear or understand stuff, or I forget it.


Bastards. Chats, even very serious ones, in a quiet room are not the same as the real world. Bah! I hope the mandatory reconsideration works out.


----------



## passenger (May 16, 2016)

can not believe your news ViolentPanda big hug mate you help so many people 
just pure madness


----------



## iona (May 17, 2016)

Is there an up-to-date list of how many points you need / get for stuff somewhere?

Finally got an ESA50 through after they sent the first one, along with most of my post for the last few months, to an address from years ago that's not even in the right country. Only found out about it when I got a reminder text for a medical assessment booked in Edinburgh the next day - I'm down in Sussex...


----------



## passenger (May 17, 2016)

where abouts in sussex ? iona i keep eveything and i remember keeping the one i got its really weird you get points for walking out the room 
and coming back in  ie your ok if you can sit in a room for 45 mins etc


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## iona (May 17, 2016)

passenger said:


> where abouts in sussex ? iona



Anywhere from Brighton to up in Kent - I'm nfa right now but my mother's letting me have post sent to her address. Filling the form in isn't a huge problem, I've done them before. It would just make it a lot easier knowing that stuff is all.


----------



## passenger (May 17, 2016)

look i will dig it out and pm you later if thats ok i live in crawley


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## iona (May 17, 2016)

passenger said:


> look i will dig it out and pm you later if thats ok i live in crawley



That's great, thanks


----------



## SophSpider (May 17, 2016)

Hello, I was hoping for some advice. 
My partner was on ESA support group for 3 years, and had a medical last month. We received the news that he had failed his medical and got 9/15 points. We are in process of pulling together information to begin the mandatory reconsideration and have an appointment with citizens advice on Thursday to complete it and send it off.
My partners disabilities include high intercranial pressure, agoraphibia, anxiety and depression. He is on medication that causes numb hands and feet and he still gets headaches and blurry vision, he also has lumbar punctures (4 per year).
We have requested a report from the GP to outline all of my partners ills and symptoms, he is also able to receive a letter from his Counceller for added evidence.
I was hoping for some advice of success stories of mandatory considerations and if anyone believes we have a good chance of being placed back into the benefits group we were previously? 
Any help would be greatly appreciated, thank you in advance.


----------



## Greebo (May 18, 2016)

SophSpider said:


> Hello, I was hoping for some advice.
> My partner was on ESA support group for 3 years, and had a medical last month. We received the news that he had failed his medical and got 9/15 points. We are in process of pulling together information to begin the mandatory reconsideration and have an appointment with citizens advice on Thursday to complete it and send it off. <snip>


Welcome to urban, and sorry to hear of your (and your partner's) trouble with the benefits system.

1) It's not dependant on symptoms or diagnoses, it's dependant on how it limits what that person can do.
2) If your partner has had no improvement since the last claim (or has got worse) there's a good chance of getting the same level of benefits as before, as long as it's worded correctly.

If you can spare £15 or so, I recommend subscribing to the Benefits And Work site to get their downloads (on how to word stuff to improve your chances without lying).


----------



## spirals (May 26, 2016)

I had my PIP assessment today, one of the things they asked me to do was to fold a piece of paper!?! I did ask what my ability to fold one piece of paper proved? 4 - 8 weeks wait now to see how cured I am


----------



## equationgirl (May 26, 2016)

spirals said:


> I had my PIP assessment today, one of the things they asked me to do was to fold a piece of paper!?! I did ask what my ability to fold one piece of paper proved? 4 - 8 weeks wait now to see how cured I am


It will be something bizarre that if you have the dexterity to fold a piece of paper then you can type at 150 wpm or operate high powered machine tools.


----------



## spirals (May 26, 2016)

Also to count backwards from 100 in 7's, can you spell world backwards? What town are you in now? It was utterly bizarre!


----------



## Greebo (May 26, 2016)

spirals said:


> Also to count backwards from 100 in 7's, can you spell world backwards? What town are you in now? It was utterly bizarre!


They did that one on VP too - it's their pisspoor simplified test of cognitive ability and memory.  Apparently it trumps what the consultants at St Thomas's  memory clinic spent a few hours testing.


----------



## pogo 10 (May 26, 2016)

Not had answer yet, my friend from counselling told me last week she had her answer which amounts to 196 a fortnight and she forgets every sentence she says, still waiting on my assessment results after nearly 3 months. My friends are asking me why i wanna kill myself, err i wonder why.


----------



## Libertad (May 26, 2016)

This is why I haven't applied for PIP, I can't handle any more of their fucking bullshit.


----------



## WouldBe (May 27, 2016)

FFS I've got to see A Tosser next Friday for my PIP assessment I was hoping to avoid that. It's in Sheffield as well for some strange reason they normally do them in Chesterfield. 
No mention that it will be recorded or not. Not sure whether to phone them and check or just to turn up with a Dictaphone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 27, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> FFS I've got to see A Tosser next Friday for my PIP assessment I was hoping to avoid that. It's in Sheffield as well for some strange reason they normally do them in Chesterfield.
> No mention that it will be recorded or not. Not sure whether to phone them and check or just to turn up with a Dictaphone.



You're not allowed to record unless you turn up with two cassette or CD recorders, record simultaneously, and give them a copy at the end of the "assessment". 
I ended up buying 2 cheap cassette recorders, and some c90s, and stuck 'em with that.


----------



## spirals (May 27, 2016)

You need to tell them you are going to record it and have two copies of the assessment. One for you and one for them. Plus it needs to be handed over at the end of the assessment. They will accept only cd or tapes, no mp3 or files. If you record it without them knowing if they find out they will instantly end the process and tell the dwp you were uncooperative  They do not have to provide recording equipment either. I was pleasantly surprised to find my husband had accidentally managed to record the whole assessment on his phone somehow


----------



## WouldBe (May 27, 2016)

Last time I turned up with 2 Dictaphones. Took one out of my pocket and put it on the table. When the med professional complained about being recorded (even though I had specifically requested it being recorded) she gave me the option of rearranging the assessment when a recording device was available or going ahead without being recorded. I said "Fuck it. I'm here we might as well get it over and done with" and took the batteries out of the Dictaphone on the table. Meanwhile the other one in my pocket was recording all the time. 



Just had a look on the b&w website to download the guides about attending a PIP medical but can't find them. I can find the link to 'downloadable guides' which then tells you to click on the 'buy now' link even though I'm already logged in. If I go through the 'members guides' link there's nothing there about PIP assessments just how to fill in the claim form and how to appeal.


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2016)

I think this Purchase new or update subscription  page's "Guide to claiming PIP 
84 page guide to PIP claims and medical" might be the one that covers attending the medical instead of having a separate one.


----------



## WouldBe (May 28, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I think this Purchase new or update subscription  page's "Guide to claiming PIP
> 84 page guide to PIP claims and medical" might be the one that covers attending the medical instead of having a separate one.


I've already downloaded that but only followed it as far as the claiming part to help fill in the form. I'll have to read further later. Cheers.


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2016)

I think it's page 67 or thereabouts.


----------



## WouldBe (May 28, 2016)

Phoned them yesterday to check if assessment would be recorded. I was told that they would have to ask the assessor on the morning of the assessment if they were OK with being recorded and if not they would have to re-arrange the appointment. WTF. They've had plenty of notice why can't they allocate the assessment to someone who is willing to be recorded from the outset instead of pissing everyone around? 

Also if I want it recorded I have to provide the dual tape / CD recording equipment 
I bet the disability discrimination act doesn't fucking say that. It might be time to bite back, the cheeky fuckers.


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2016)

Well, shit. Guess who just got an appointment with DWP in the post.


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Phoned them yesterday to check if assessment would be recorded. I was told that they would have to ask the assessor on the morning of the assessment if they were OK with being recorded and if not they would have to re-arrange the appointment. WTF. They've had plenty of notice why can't they allocate the assessment to someone who is willing to be recorded from the outset instead of pissing everyone around?
> 
> Also if I want it recorded I have to provide the dual tape / CD recording equipment
> I bet the disability discrimination act doesn't fucking say that. It might be time to bite back, the cheeky fuckers.



I have not had one recorded before, but would like to, so I'll have to learn about that.

Do you mean they want you to turn up for the assessment and only then, basically, will they decide whether it can be recorded?  Nasty.


----------



## WouldBe (May 29, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I have not had one recorded before, but would like to, so I'll have to learn about that.
> 
> Do you mean they want you to turn up for the assessment and only then, basically, will they decide whether it can be recorded?  Nasty.


 If I understood right they will ask the assessor first thing in the morning if they will allow recording and then let me know at short notice that it has been cancelled.


----------



## WouldBe (May 29, 2016)

spirals said:


> Also to count backwards from 100 in 7's,


Easy peasy, 97, 87 77, 67, 57.....


----------



## iona (May 29, 2016)

ESA50 said:
			
		

> "Please tell us about any tablets or other medication you are taking"



Not sure whether or not I should bother mentioning hormones etc since gender stuff isn't exactly an illness or disability that affects my ability to work..?


----------



## Greebo (May 29, 2016)

iona said:


> Not sure whether or not I should bother mentioning hormones etc since gender stuff isn't exactly an illness or disability that affects my ability to work..?


What about the side effects?


----------



## iona (May 29, 2016)

Greebo said:


> What about the side effects?



Again, nothing that affects my ability to work.


----------



## WouldBe (May 30, 2016)

spirals said:


> can you spell world backwards?


Is this one W O R L D B A C K W A R D S?


----------



## spirals (May 30, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Is this one W O R L D B A C K W A R D S?



I asked whirled or world


----------



## WouldBe (May 31, 2016)

spirals said:


> I asked whirled or world


Should have just spelled whirled backwards.


----------



## pogo 10 (May 31, 2016)

Still not had an answer after 2 and a half months, seeing housing officer tm so we will call them.


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## WouldBe (Jun 1, 2016)

2 cassette recorders on their way and a pack of tapes.  Might need to rearrange the assessment though.


----------



## Celyn (Jun 1, 2016)

I think I want to hit them with a request to record interview. Do they consider those little micro-cassette dictaphone thingies all right, or do I need a time machine and two classic size cassette recorders?


----------



## inva (Jun 1, 2016)

iona said:


> Not sure whether or not I should bother mentioning hormones etc since gender stuff isn't exactly an illness or disability that affects my ability to work..?


don't know if this is too late to be any help, but when I did that form I interpreted it as wanting you to list everything regardless of if it is relevant to your ability to work, and that's also what it suggests in the ESA50 guide I got off the Benefits and Work website. good luck


----------



## Greebo (Jun 1, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I think I want to hit them with a request to record interview. Do they consider those little micro-cassette dictaphone thingies all right, or do I need a time machine and two classic size cassette recorders?


Whatever you use, there have to be 2 identical recordings made at the same time, on the same type of machine.


----------



## iona (Jun 1, 2016)

inva said:


> don't know if this is too late to be any help, but when I did that form I interpreted it as wanting you to list everything regardless of if it is relevant to your ability to work, and that's also what it suggests in the ESA50 guide I got off the Benefits and Work website. good luck



Not too late because I've just realised I didn't fucking post it before I went away for the week.  I'll add that too when I get back then. Thanks.


----------



## Celyn (Jun 1, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Whatever you use, there have to be 2 identical recordings made at the same time, on the same type of machine.


Aha. Thanks! I have a Pearlcorder thing and I will look to buy a twin for it.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 2, 2016)

Cassette recorders and tapes arrived this morning. 

Looks like I may have to keep the appointment tomorrow.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 2, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I think I want to hit them with a request to record interview. Do they consider those little micro-cassette dictaphone thingies all right, or do I need a time machine and two classic size cassette recorders?


I've just got a couple of omega 20 reporter cassette recorders of amazon at £17 a piece.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 2, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> <snip> Looks like I may have to keep the appointment tomorrow.


Best of luck - not that luck should have to come into it.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 3, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Best of luck - not that luck should have to come into it.


Cheers.

Feeling really sick about the assessment. May 'forget' to take sick bags with me.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 3, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I have not had one recorded before, but would like to, so I'll have to learn about that.
> 
> Do you mean they want you to turn up for the assessment and only then, basically, will they decide whether it can be recorded?  Nasty.


Tossers have just phoned up, 2 hours before assessment, to cancel it due to shortage of staff from sickness.  Nice to see they can use that excuse but it doesn't apply to people who are long term sick.

IIRC if I fail to attend or re-schedule 2 appointments ATOS will write to the DWP that I've failed to co-operate. If they cancel this next appointment can I write to the DWP to say ATOS have failed to co-operate?  Seems fair to me.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 3, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Tossers have just phoned up, 2 hours before assessment, to cancel it due to shortage of staff from sickness.  Nice to see they can use that excuse but it doesn't apply to people who are long term sick. <snip>


(((WouldBe)))  I agree that this stinks.  One day this will will change for the better, but to make it happen as many as possible of us have got to stay alive and get through this.


----------



## Celyn (Jun 3, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Tossers have just phoned up, 2 hours before assessment, to cancel it due to shortage of staff from sickness.  Nice to see they can use that excuse but it doesn't apply to people who are long term sick.
> 
> IIRC if I fail to attend or re-schedule 2 appointments ATOS will write to the DWP that I've failed to co-operate. If they cancel this next appointment can I write to the DWP to say ATOS have failed to co-operate?  Seems fair to me.



Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!  Hugs and stuff. So you get all that stress for nothing, plus knowing they're going to come up with another date.  Yuk.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 4, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Tossers have just phoned up, 2 hours before assessment, to cancel it due to shortage of staff from sickness.  Nice to see they can use that excuse but it doesn't apply to people who are long term sick.
> 
> IIRC if I fail to attend or re-schedule 2 appointments ATOS will write to the DWP that I've failed to co-operate. If they cancel this next appointment can I write to the DWP to say ATOS have failed to co-operate?  Seems fair to me.


they did that to buscador - twice. I complained for her - she has been made so ill and nerveous by the stress of all, don't think they gave a toss about that. I'd booked time off work to accompany her - so I was told them how much inconvenience and lost wages it had cost me - and bizarrely ATOS sent me a cheque in compensation and apology.


----------



## Celt (Jun 4, 2016)

So I have a home assessment from capitals healthcare professional for PIp on the 15th June

 This waiting and worrying has knocked any self confidence I had.  My mental health is in nosedive, My car is adapted, so if I loose and they take my car back I am stuffed. Without a car caring for my mum is going to be difficult. It's a left footed accelerator

Fuck you fucking fucks, Cameron, Gideon, IDS and my new Tory mp Dr james davies.

Needed a rant, thank you


----------



## Greebo (Jun 4, 2016)

(((Celt))) hang on in there.


----------



## Celt (Jun 4, 2016)

Greebo said:


> (((Celt))) hang on in there.


oh I will, but thank you


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 4, 2016)

Good luck to everyone going through the process at present, especially WouldBe Celt and iona

Bet if a claimant cancelled 2 hours before the appointment they'd tell the dwp.  bunch of wankers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> they did that to buscador - twice. I complained for her - she has been made so ill and nerveous by the stress of all, don't think they gave a toss about that. I'd booked time off work to accompany her - so I was told them how much inconvenience and lost wages it had cost me - and bizarrely ATOS sent me a cheque in compensation and apology.



Not "bizarre", that's Atos covering their saggy arses. Much cheaper to compensate you, than to have you or buscador pop up in mass litigation a few years down the line, which while improbable, is not impossible.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Oh!!!!!!!!!!!!  Hugs and stuff. So you get all that stress for nothing, plus knowing they're going to come up with another date.  Yuk.


Not just the stress I had to fork out £15 for a rush delivery of the cassette recorders and tapes as the appointment was at short notice, over a bank holiday weekend to start with.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> don't think they gave a toss about that.


Probably where they got their name from. "Couldn't give ATOS"


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 4, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Good luck to everyone going through the process at present, especially WouldBe Celt and iona
> 
> Bet if a claimant cancelled 2 hours before the appointment they'd tell the dwp.  bunch of wankers.


It would have taken me an hour to get there so was really only 1 hours notice.  


Should I be cheeky and ask to see a sick note for the member of staff who should have done my assessment?


----------



## Celt (Jun 7, 2016)

I requested it be recorded, I hadn't expected the home visit, I don't really want to piss then of before we start by asking them will they be doing so.  I have asked the only person I would be happy to be with me, but it's not easy but not ruled out.

My instinct is to clean and tidy, but I live like this because of my disability

. The physical aspect, chronic pain, has added a new step, a pain in a different part of my lower back, I'm anxious and exhausted.

Trying to work out how I can get me adapted wheels when they take my adapted car from me, which I think they will..


----------



## Celt (Jun 9, 2016)

I'm getting lower, don't think my friends can take the time off for the assessment, I understand Should I talk to capita about recording? That won't be an easy call to make,  I do wish I wasn't so predictable .


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 9, 2016)

Sorry you're not feeling great Celt,  these assessments are putting so much stress on people. Try not worry about what might happen - if you are worse you are worse. Don't run yourself into the ground cleaning and tidying,  if you can't do it don't.

If your friend can't be there I think you should phone and ask for a recording to be made, see what they say.

Hang in there lovey x x


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 9, 2016)

Celt said:


> I'm getting lower, don't think my friends can take the time off for the assessment, I understand Should I talk to capita about recording? That won't be an easy call to make,  I do wish I wasn't so predictable .


Don't bother cleaning and tidying.

It's your own home you can have as many or as few recording devices running as you like. If strategically placed the assessor won't even know they are there.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 9, 2016)

How are you Celt?  x x


----------



## Celt (Jun 10, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> How are you Celt?  x x


Still here, thanks


----------



## toggle (Jun 10, 2016)

Celt said:


> I'm getting lower, don't think my friends can take the time off for the assessment, I understand Should I talk to capita about recording? That won't be an easy call to make,  I do wish I wasn't so predictable .



yes. 

get it recorded if at all possible. keeps them more honest. m

contact local disability and anti cuts groups to see if someone can be with you, if you can handle another stranger being there. Libertad had somneone from cornwall anti cuts with him. i'm still annoyed that public transport is so crappy that I couldn't. 

and get in contact with your gp. this level of reaction to stress needs 2 responses. the first is support if at all possible. and the second is making sure the gp records this as your response to stress. keep up with producing the papertrails you need to cunt off these bastards.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 10, 2016)

Celt See if there's anyone in your area who could accompany you. Here's a list of local DPAC groups.

Local DPAC Groups » DPAC


----------



## leno (Jun 10, 2016)

I got my letter for assessment this morning and the dreadful fear that comes with it. This will be the third time I've been assessed but the first for two years. I have to admit I've been ignoring this thread since then, I didn't know ATOs was still doing it. Has the scoring changed since then?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 10, 2016)

leno said:


> I got my letter for assessment this morning and the dreadful fear that comes with it. This will be the third time I've been assessed but the first for two years. I have to admit I've been ignoring this thread since then, I didn't know ATOs was still doing it. Has the scoring changed since then?


Which are you being assessd for - ESA or PIP?


----------



## leno (Jun 10, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Which are you being assessd for - ESA or PIP?


I'm not sure - I didn't look too closely (I was quite pleased that I'd managed to open it and take a bit of a look) I'll have to check when I get back. I thought the ATOS in Brighton had closed and been replaced with PIP.

I've been involved with other campaigns but shied away from this and have not kept up to date. Anyone know of a good disabled group in Brighton? I didn't find one last time.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 10, 2016)

The thing is, for PIP recordings you're expected to provide your own equipment, amd some of the scoring has changed from when it was DLA.

ESA (was IB) assessments are still AFAIK supposed to be recorded (on request and booked in advance) using the assessmemt centre's equipment.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2016)

Greebo said:


> The thing is, for PIP recordings you're expected to provide your own equipment, amd some of the scoring has changed from when it was DLA.
> 
> ESA (was IB) assessments are still AFAIK supposed to be recorded (on request and booked in advance) using the assessmemt centre's equipment.



The prior booking being so that they can order the recording kit from the regional centre.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 10, 2016)

leno said:


> Anyone know of a good disabled group in Brighton? I didn't find one last time.



There is a DPAC group in Brighton, contact details here:

Local DPAC Groups » DPAC


----------



## Celt (Jun 11, 2016)

My friend is a support worker and can be with me.  I'd like to make some notes before the assessment

I've just read my copy of the letter of support from the director of the charity I'm involved in.  It made sobering reading


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 11, 2016)

Good luck to all with upcoming assessments.


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## leno (Jun 11, 2016)

Thanks for the replies I'll try and see if the DPAC group have a copy of the points. It is for esa - is that still ATOS?


----------



## Greebo (Jun 11, 2016)

leno said:


> Thanks for the replies I'll try and see if the DPAC group have a copy of the points. It is for esa - is that still ATOS?


It sill still be assessed by ATOS, unless Maximus have taken over - the point system isn't affected by which bunch of shits enables it, let alone oversees it.


----------



## leno (Jun 11, 2016)

Well if they're judging by the same points as last time, I guess I have some chance of passing. I didn't realise they were going to make it an annual event.


----------



## felixthecat (Jun 11, 2016)

I've been headhunted again by this shower of shites. They offer a pretty reasonable package for assessors btw - not that I'm going to take the nice man up on his offer. I've got significantly more ethics than that.


----------



## Greebo (Jun 11, 2016)

felixthecat said:


> <snip> I've got significantly more ethics than that.


I wish more people had your ethics and did likewise.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 11, 2016)

Greebo said:


> I wish more people had your ethics and did likewise.


Many do. I know a few health professionals who wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.


----------



## felixthecat (Jun 11, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Many do. I know a few health professionals who wouldn't touch them with a bargepole.



And not many that do stay for long.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 11, 2016)

felixthecat said:


> And not many that do stay for long.


And it's self-evidently stupid when you've got physiotherapists trying to gainsay GPs or specialists (in general terms, not on matters specific to physiotherapy!)


----------



## Celt (Jun 13, 2016)

so while sleepwalking, i fell last night, woke up falling,  No permanent damage but the coatstand is  finished.  I realised I didnt make any reference to sleep problems. 

What should I be doing to prepare for pip home assesment wed at noon.?


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 13, 2016)

Celt said:


> so while sleepwalking, i fell last night, woke up falling,  No permanent damage but the coatstand is  finished.  I realised I didnt make any reference to sleep problems.
> 
> What should I be doing to prepare for pip home assesment wed at noon.?


Leave the broken coatstand lying around and explain how it ended up like that. 

Good luck. Mine is this Friday.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 13, 2016)

Celt said:


> so while sleepwalking, i fell last night, woke up falling,  No permanent damage but the coatstand is  finished.  I realised I didnt make any reference to sleep problems.
> 
> What should I be doing to prepare for pip home assesment wed at noon.?


Go over what you submitted. 

Don't tidy and clean especially for this person. They're not a wanted guest.


----------



## passenger (Jun 14, 2016)

i`m a bit confused witch is not hard ,i sent my form of the ESA one with
various  letters etc, that was 5 months ago so i called them 3 weeks ago
to see if i still had to send in fit notes, the lady said they still had not decided
what group i should be in i.e work related or support group ? how long does
it take for them to make a desertion  thanks in advance for any help / advice.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2016)

passenger said:


> i`m a bit confused witch is not hard ,i sent my form of the ESA one with
> various  letters etc, that was 5 months ago so i called them 3 weeks ago
> to see if i still had to send in fit notes, the lady said they still had not decided
> what group i should be in i.e work related or support group ? how long does
> it take for them to make a desertion  thanks in advance for any help / advice.


There is no way to tell how long it's going to take for a decision to be made, unfortunately, it seems to vary like nobody's business.


----------



## Celt (Jun 15, 2016)

Going to bed, bring it on tomorrow.

  If they cancel on me, I'm not going to be happy.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2016)

Celt said:


> Going to bed, bring it on tomorrow.
> 
> If they cancel on me, I'm not going to be happy.


How was it? Hope you are OK x


----------



## Celt (Jun 15, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> How was it? Hope you are OK x



It seemed ok, she seemed to understand what I was saying, now we wait and see, thanks for asking


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2016)

Celt said:


> It seemed ok, she seemed to understand what I was saying, now we wait and see, thanks for asking


You're welcome x glad it went OK, fingers crossed for a good result.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 17, 2016)

I've phoned ATOS this morning to re-arrange the appointment as I appear to have given myself food poisoning. That or it's severe anxiety / stress and I've been on and off the loo all morning. If it wasn't for the fact it would have taken me about an hour to get to the examination centre I would have gone and could have left them some physical evidence.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 22, 2016)

As pointless as I'm sure this question is: what seems to be the turnaround for processing the results of a WCA?

Am I correct in thinking that, while waiting for a mandatory reconsideration, one cannot claim ESA?

thanks


----------



## Greebo (Jun 22, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> As pointless as I'm sure this question is: what seems to be the turnaround for processing the results of a WCA?
> 
> Am I correct in thinking that, while waiting for a mandatory reconsideration, one cannot claim ESA?
> 
> thanks


1) How long is a piece of string?

2) I believe that you may be wrong - it may be possible to put in a claim even if you have to wait until the decision to actually receive the payment plus backpayment.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 22, 2016)

I was under the impression that you'd have to claim JSA, or the Universal Credit equivalent thereof, if you fail the WCA and seek a mandatory reconsideration. Also that if you want to reclaim ESA you'd need to claim for something different or provide evidence of a new condition


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jun 22, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> I was under the impression that you'd have to claim JSA, or the Universal Credit equivalent thereof, if you fail the WCA and seek a mandatory reconsideration. Also that if you want to reclaim ESA you'd need to claim for something different or provide evidence of a new condition


You're right, while waiting for the outcome of a mandatory reconsideration you won't be paid ESA but can claim JSA, the MR takes 'up to three weeks' but I'd say be prepared for it to take longer. Be aware of the conditions of JSA, though. You have to sign an agreement stating that you're available and seeking full time employment. If you don't sign this then they won't pay you, if you do sign this you're obliged to follow through on it.

If the mandatory reconsideration is unsuccessful and you go to appeal you can get ESA on the assessment rate for the duration of the wait for your appeal to be heard.
You can start a new ESA claim if you have a new condition.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 22, 2016)

Was with my housing officer today and phoned esa for results of the medical i went for back in march. Am still on esa support group till next septemberand we are phoning pip when she comes back from holiday. Had to pass the phone over to her as was getting overwhelmed with all the questions. Dont know what id do without the right support. Shes brilliant.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 23, 2016)

Poor girl whom i volunteer with has been declared fit for work and had all her benefits stopped including housing benefit. She said if it wasnt for her partner shed starve and would be homeless. Told her to appeal but she said last time she appealed they turned her down. Think shes exhausted by it all.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2016)

pogo 10 said:


> Poor girl whom i volunteer with has been declared fit for work and had all her benefits stopped including housing benefit. She said if it wasnt for her partner shed starve and would be homeless. Told her to appeal but she said last time she appealed they turned her down. Think shes exhausted by it all.



She needs to re-apply at least for Housing Benefit, straight away. DWP have no right to stop it, but often do.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jun 23, 2016)

Yep, reapply for HB immediately. Does she have a local welfare rights service? Google 'welfare rights (her area)' to see if there's a local agency that can help.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 23, 2016)

pogo 10 said:


> Poor girl whom i volunteer with has been declared fit for work and had all her benefits stopped including housing benefit. She said if it wasnt for her partner shed starve and would be homeless. Told her to appeal but she said last time she appealed they turned her down. Think shes exhausted by it all.


Sorry to hear about your friend pogo 10,  the system is cruel


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry to hear about your friend pogo 10,  the system is cruel


Aye, the guy who i volunteer with said when he was in hospital and on esa but in the work group he said they were phoning him up telling him to apply for jobs, ffs.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 23, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> She needs to re-apply at least for Housing Benefit, straight away. DWP have no right to stop it, but often do.


Thanks violent panda, ill tell her that next time im at volunteering, cunts.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 23, 2016)

purenarcotic said:


> Yep, reapply for HB immediately. Does she have a local welfare rights service? Google 'welfare rights (her area)' to see if there's a local agency that can help.


 Dunno, but everybody whos at this volunteering place has to be referred so not sure if shes got a support worker as im new there and have only spoke to her twice, but will pass this on to her pure narcotic and thankyou.


----------



## pogo 10 (Jun 23, 2016)

Oh, the list goes on, another guy there cant get esa cos hes french and hasnt been here long enough.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2016)

Got my copy of the DWP's submission to the tribunal today. The best I can say of it, is that it's a masterpiece of selective quotation of my answers.

I'll be starting work on the rebuttal I'll make at the tribunal soon as.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 25, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Got my copy of the DWP's submission to the tribunal today. The best I can say of it, is that it's a masterpiece of selective quotation of my answers.
> 
> I'll be starting work on the rebuttal I'll make at the tribunal soon as.


Last time I had a medical I said I hovered and dusted very occasionally yet according to the software that generates the report I have OCD and am hovering and dusting all the time.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> Got my copy of the DWP's submission to the tribunal today. The best I can say of it, is that it's a masterpiece of selective quotation of my answers.
> 
> I'll be starting work on the rebuttal I'll make at the tribunal soon as.


What's the worst you can say about it, out of interest?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> What's the worst you can say about it, out of interest?



That it's entirely divorced what I've said from the context in which it was said, and has premised contingent factors - things I made clear were contingent - as absolutes. I'm going to enjoy unpicking this and throwing it in the DWP's faces at tribunal.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That it's entirely divorced what I've said from the context in which it was said, and has premised contingent factors - things I made clear were contingent - as absolutes. I'm going to enjoy unpicking this and throwing it in the DWP's faces at tribunal.



Go get 'em VP.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 26, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> That it's entirely divorced what I've said from the context in which it was said, and has premised contingent factors - things I made clear were contingent - as absolutes. I'm going to enjoy unpicking this and throwing it in the DWP's faces at tribunal.


They really are utter fuckwits - enjoy x


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## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

Got a WCA tomorrow morning.

Can't say I'm looking forward to sitting in a possibly really busy waiting room for however long they decide to keep me waiting for (all part of the test of course).


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 26, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Got a WCA tomorrow morning.
> 
> Can't say I'm looking forward to sitting in a possibly really busy waiting room for however long they decide to keep me waiting for (all part of the test of course).


Best of luck, hope it passes quickly - remember to base everything on your worst day when you answer.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 26, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Best of luck, hope it passes quickly - remember to base everything on your worst day when you answer.


Thanks.
I don't for one moment think I'll pass; there are people far worse off than I getting absolutely nowhere. I've not had much support from my GP at all so really I need to focus on another way to move forward. This is really a formality at this point. At best I might get a few weeks more ESA before they send me the Big Brown Envelope of Doom.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 27, 2016)

When they ask for ID am I allowed to tell them they can't make and keep copies?

I'm not sure I want these people having permanent records of my bank account. They can see it, but that's all.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 27, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> When they ask for ID am I allowed to tell them they can't make and keep copies?
> 
> I'm not sure I want these people having permanent records of my bank account. They can see it, but that's all.


Yes, absolutely you can. It's your right under the data protection act to determine what of your information is kept and stored by others.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 27, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Got a WCA tomorrow morning.
> 
> Can't say I'm looking forward to sitting in a possibly really busy waiting room for however long they decide to keep me waiting for (all part of the test of course).



The chairs are always badly-padded and non-ergonomic too, so if you don't go in with a back problem, you come out with one.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 27, 2016)

My appointment was at 9 40, which meant it was really at 10 o clock.

The usual bollocks I guess.

I won't win.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 27, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> My appointment was at 9 40, which meant it was really at 10 o clock.
> 
> The usual bollocks I guess.
> 
> I won't win.


It's not about winning or losing, it's about holding on to what you're entitled to. Whatever tricks they get up to in order to deprive you of that, you are still entitled to it. It grieves me that so many people - with plenty else on their plates as it is - have to go through the awful reconsideration and appeal process, just to get what they are entitled to, but please don't give up hope, if only for those who have to follow you through this iniquitous system. Every person who goes through this, appeals, and prevails is hammering another nail into the coffin of this outrageous way of dealing with disability.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 27, 2016)

existentialist said:


> It's not about winning or losing, it's about holding on to what you're entitled to. Whatever tricks they get up to in order to deprive you of that, you are still entitled to it. It grieves me that so many people - with plenty else on their plates as it is - have to go through the awful reconsideration and appeal process, just to get what they are entitled to, but please don't give up hope, if only for those who have to follow you through this iniquitous system. Every person who goes through this, appeals, and prevails is hammering another nail into the coffin of this outrageous way of dealing with disability.


I agree, but I simply don't have the weight of evidence to convince the arbiters of the system to score me enough points on their arbitrary scale. So really I need to focus my efforts onto something else. Fuck knows what. However I'm not going to pretend that I will win or pass or whatever. I have a few quid in the bank which i've saved during my claim knowing this day would eventually come. Hopefully with that I might be able to do something else. It might keep me going during a mandatory reconsideration rather than having to claim JSA, but I do not imagine the outcome of that will be any different.


----------



## BCBlues (Jun 27, 2016)

Some great advice and support in this thread, I've been meaning to add to it for a while, anyway here we go, i hope theres some little tips in here for all you out there fighting this absolutely ridiculous set up.

Called in for a WCA, attended alone (i know) and scored 0.
Asked for a Mandatory Reconsideration and asked what qualifications the assessor has in regard to lumbar sacral problems and arthritis.

His report leant heavily on the fact that i attended, alone. Dont do this, always take someone with you.
He has blatantly lied and also constructed sentences from one question answers.
He asked me five times how i got there.
I scored 0 for not rocking (rocking is a sign of anxiety apparently). 
He deliberately has missed out parts of my medication including what he described as  " standard painkillers"  (Tramadol, which i take with Gabapentin and Co Codamol). He also said i was happy with proceedings despite the fact that i told him he was fkng hurting me during the tests. I dont think he would have attempted to lie so much had i had a witness there, there was a very good reason i didn't but clearly it didnt stop the DWP exploiting this.

No surprise the MR simply repeated his constructed drivel and the assessors qualifications are ... Registered Nurse.
Apparently he meant a "standard dose "of painkiller, whatever.
( A couple of days after the DWP received my request they called me to let me know that i could go to the Jobcentre and register for ESA Jobseekers if i was suffering hardship, crafty fkrs).

I like the contingent/absolute argument ViolentPanda , I'll also be arguing on a similar basis in the appeal.

I've put my appeal in. Phoned the DWP a week later and was told i need the Appeal registration number before i can ask for my benefits to be reinstated and that i will also need a fit note (sick note?) before they can reinstate. Im now thus waiting to hear from appeals to get things moving again.

The whole system is designed to force people to give in, in particular the waste of time called a Mandatory Reconsideration, two big words obviously chosen to scare people off, its a review ffs.

IDS has a lot to answer for despite his recent attempts to snake his way out of it all.

Hope the above helps some of you who are being called in understand the procedures lying ahead. 
Meantime im due a MRI scan to see what is causing massive problems in my lower back and has already destroyed my left hip bone and is now causing the same problems for my knees

Good luck to you all, dont give up the fight.


----------



## Libertad (Jun 27, 2016)

Stick with it BCBlues you've been treated disgracefully. I hope you rip them a new one at appeal.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 28, 2016)

The whole thing, obviously, stinks.

Instead of letting GP's do the job, we spend money on private insurance companies to hire ex gp's, or to lure away health workers of some descript, to assess you at a time and place of _their _choosing. Obviously a recipe for disaster.

Then the assessor presents their subjective opinion of your situation to a decision maker with whom you are to have no contact. That person does little more (at best) than tick a series of boxes according to the descriptors and score them accordingly. If your total ticked boxes grants you the arbitrary sum decided by a professor you will never meet then you might get some money for a time. If it doesn't. you are immediately and instantly let go with nothing. We don't let employers treat staff that way, but it's ok for the sick and the vulnerable who, by definition, will be poor to begin with.

I would be surprised if the majority of Mandatory Reconsideration results differed from the initial outcome.


----------



## BCBlues (Jun 28, 2016)

Libertad said:


> Stick with it BCBlues you've been treated disgracefully. I hope you rip them a new one at appeal.



Cheers. I'll do my best.

And yes Biscuitician, its all about those tick boxes. On the Medical Report the assessor stated that "she....".
As I've said on the appeal form, I'm not being petty highlighting this error but it just proves my argument that the assessor was working to a set proforma that never allowed him to grasp my daily problems.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 28, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Cheers. I'll do my best.
> 
> And yes Biscuitician, its all about those tick boxes. On the Medical Report the assessor stated that "she....".
> As I've said on the appeal form, I'm not being petty highlighting this error but it just proves my argument that the assessor was working to a set proforma that never allowed him to grasp my daily problems.


I did some analysis of the software earlier in the thread - it's not fit for purpose and the selectors are such that statements such as 'she had a mild amputation ' are easily and anecdotally produced. In summary garbage in, garbage out.

It's disgraceful that the decision makers are relying on such drivel as 'evidence' for their decisions.  should be illegal,  it's clearly unethical.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 29, 2016)

My assessment is this Friday. I've got some Imodium in just in case.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jun 30, 2016)

It occurs to me that the reason people score zero so often, when an assessment goes against them, is because the DWP doesn't want to make it easy for them to appeal. If they scored, for example 10 or 12 then it would therefore be a lot easier to get the 15 points through an appeal/with the help of the CAB etc.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 30, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> It occurs to me that the reason people score zero so often, when an assessment goes against them, is because the DWP doesn't want to make it easy for them to appeal. If they scored, for example 10 or 12 then it would therefore be a lot easier to get the 15 points through an appeal/with the help of the CAB etc.


That could be part of it, but I suspect the answer is even simpler than that.

I think the system has been carefully - and effectively - designed to be very, very good at simply rationalising the dismissal of any genuine manifestation of disability. My guess is that it is working well beyond the wildest expectations of the cold-eyed cynics who commissioned it, and those who subsequently set it up.

I suspect that they have incompetently succeeded in creating a system that achieves far beyond what they set out to do. And I fervently hope that this overachievement is its own downfall.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 2, 2016)

*Warning, PIP assessment.*

If you want to have your PIP assessment with ATOS recorded and your assessment date is changed for any reason you must tell them, each time it's rearranged, that you want it recording or they won't let you. Due to some dumbass rule permission to record is only valid for the assessment date you request recording for. 


I had to wait 30+ minutes while ATOS were put on hold by the DWP to get a unique reference number so that I could record my assessment. If you didn't have back problems before your assessment you will have by the time you've sat on their chairs for any length of time.   Just have to wait now to see what fantasy figures they assign to my score.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 2, 2016)

Hope you are OK after yesterday WouldBe


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 3, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Hope you are OK after yesterday WouldBe


Apart from being knackered, in pain from head to toe and kidney pain that I've not had before  (crap chairs?) I'm fine cheers.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 3, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Apart from being knackered, in pain from head to toe and kidney pain that I've not had before  (crap chairs?) I'm fine cheers.


Do you have any fever or nausea? Kidneys might just be uncomfortable - are you drinking enough water?


----------



## nogojones (Jul 3, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> My assessment is this Friday. I've got some Imodium in just in case.


Don't take the imodium and shit in their office


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 4, 2016)

nogojones said:


> Don't take the imodium and shit in their office


I had thought of that but it could have taken an hour to get there.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 4, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Do you have any fever or nausea? Kidneys might just be uncomfortable - are you drinking enough water?


No fever or nausea. Should be drinking enough fluid, urine is very pale yellow apart form first thing in morning. May be lumbar back pain not kidneys but it's in the same area.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 5, 2016)

I knew I shouldn't have taken that Imodium, I've not been to the loo for 4 days.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> I knew I shouldn't have taken that Imodium, I've not been to the loo for 4 days.



That's the problem I have with it, too. If my diverticulitis is bad enough to prevent me doing something I absolutely have to do, I'll take it, but with the certainty that I won't shit for days, and that when I do, the poo will be arse-rippingly impacted.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 5, 2016)

Yuk, I'm seriously horribly sorry for the pair of you, but if I let my mind dwell on the matter, then I'll be dashing to the bog every three minutes for the next while.  

Here's a weird and wonderful miracle. I failed to attend a recent ESA Assessment thingy. Got a letter saying "fill in this form about why you didn't". The weird thing was it was a tiny little one or two page form, as opposed to their normal "write your own "War and Peace" forms.  Filled it in. Now I have got a letter saying, basically, OK we accept your reasons for not attending but remember you must generally do as we say and you must come along when we make an new appointment _etc_".

Admittedly, I've skipped over all the misery, panic, terror, and general nastiness all this involved but I am just sort of amazed that they didn't say "now, immediately go and starve". I had been sort of working out how much rice and frozen veg and stuff I have etc.

And I had lost my antidepressants and now I have found and if I'm good, with any luck, I might be more able to go when they next demand my presence.  (I _might_ also, be clever enough, on receiving the appointment letter, to write asking if I can record the thing). Ah, good point, I have to teach my printer to work).

OK, I seem to have wandered into thinking out loud just then, so I'll shut up, but I wanted to share the weird news that they were ok with my failure to show up.

Best wishes to those awaiting results.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## spirals (Jul 6, 2016)

spirals said:


> I've been told to apply for PIP 5 months before my DLA award runs out, when I queried it I got told they are migrating a lot of people now and the time your DLA award runs out doesn't matter.



Just heard back, enhanced rates for both, a bit of a miracle as I know people in a far worse position than me who didn't get a single point!


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2016)

spirals said:


> Just heard back, enhanced rates for both, a bit of a miracle as I know people in a far worse position than me who didn't get a single point!


Brilliant news spirals


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Yuk, I'm seriously horribly sorry for the pair of you, but if I let my mind dwell on the matter, then I'll be dashing to the bog every three minutes for the next while.
> 
> Here's a weird and wonderful miracle. I failed to attend a recent ESA Assessment thingy. Got a letter saying "fill in this form about why you didn't". The weird thing was it was a tiny little one or two page form, as opposed to their normal "write your own "War and Peace" forms.  Filled it in. Now I have got a letter saying, basically, OK we accept your reasons for not attending but remember you must generally do as we say and you must come along when we make an new appointment _etc_".
> 
> ...


I'm glad it worked out for you, a nice miracle indeed.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

spirals said:


> Just heard back, enhanced rates for both, a bit of a miracle as I know people in a far worse position than me who didn't get a single point!


That's wonderful!


----------



## Celyn (Jul 7, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I'm glad it worked out for you, a nice miracle indeed.


Well, more of a procrastination, really, but still a miracle.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 14, 2016)

We now have tribunal date at the end of the month.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 14, 2016)

Good luck vp.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 19, 2016)

On ESA Work Related Activity Group, I have a work capability assessment thing to go to. IF they say "go away, no more ESA for you", can I appeal?  Not "will I win appeal?" - just whether there is a step I can take - appeal or a reconsideration or whatever it is called. I'm trying not to think of it too much, and kind of looking to find a way to tell myself "don't panic, not end of the world" sort of thing.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 19, 2016)

Celyn said:


> On ESA Work Related Activity Group, I have a work capability assessment thing to go to. IF they say "go away, no more ESA for you", can I appeal?  <snip>


Yes.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 19, 2016)

THANK YOU!  I am trying hard not to get into big panic, so if I can make myself go, but silently muttering "don't panic, this isn't quite final" it will at least get me to the office.  For once I am glad to live in a city, as it must be bloody horrendous for people who are expected to travel far for the damn assessments.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 19, 2016)

(((Celyn)))


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 20, 2016)

When is it Celyn?  hope it goes ok.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 21, 2016)

It was today. Having been awake at 06.30 the previous day, I thought "Oh, that's good, I will then go sleep at proper time, then have big proper sleep before go to DWP thing. This did not work, of course.  No sleep.

When I did get out and 'phone for taxi (really, there are NO buses from here), the weather was so fierce and rainy and I got so wet, waiting for taxi, found that I was happily talking out loud to the weather.   Good thing about terrible weather - nobody else around to hear.  That was good, really. Oh, I don't mean that I normally talk to the rain, but I was trying hard to avoid bad panic, and it was sort of fun talking to the rain.  (I am not really loopy, honest, guv.)  

Taxi came, but by all the gods, that was fierce and hard weather.    No longer care if I be late > because weather. Taxi driver also freaked about mad weather. Got there. Waited. Was seen by one person (I thought there might usually be more than one?) A very nice and charming nurse lady. Apart from all the obvious things to ask about, she (a bit worryingly) wanted to test lung function and told me to go and talk to GP about it.

So, well, I don't know. She says she does not make decisions but someone else will, and if I have questions, I should go and ask in the JobCentre.

But I did get to the thing (good  )    and the next bit is awaiting the "Decision".

And I give thanks to all who gave good wishes and hugs. Seriously, I really do.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 21, 2016)

Sounds like you gave it your best shot Celyn


----------



## BCBlues (Jul 21, 2016)

Thats a big hurdle you've got over Celyn well done. Keep it going


----------



## Biscuitician (Jul 21, 2016)

I seem to have passed my WCA...I think.

I'm not entirely sure. I got a letter that looks like the sort that tells you about a change in your benefit ("from July, you'll be getting an extra tuppence instead"). 

I wasn't expecting to win, but I think i've been placed into the WRAG (that seems to be what it says - certainly not the support group). So I can look forward to being harassed by the JC that I can't get to because the bus company changed the bus route. 

I think it helped having someone attend with me so massive props to the SPEW friend who helped me. Whatever people might think of them, at least some people in this country give a damn.


----------



## Biscuitician (Jul 22, 2016)

I have no hard data to support the claim, but I would advise, where possible, people don't attend alone. Of course it shouldn't have to be this wsy


----------



## xsunnysuex (Jul 22, 2016)

I've had to rearrange my f2f as I had no one to go with me.
My nephew's outcome was unexpected.  He suffers from depression and went for his assessment about 2 weeks ago.  He doesn't have problems with going out.  Meeting people. Travelling on public transport.   He does his own shopping etc.   We all fully expected him to fail.  But he's just been notified he's passed. And letter states they won't need to reassess him again for 1.5yrs.	Really shocked tbh,   seeing how hard it is now.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> I seem to have passed my WCA...I think.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure. I got a letter that looks like the sort that tells you about a change in your benefit ("from July, you'll be getting an extra tuppence instead").
> 
> I wasn't expecting to win, but I think i've been placed into the WRAG (that seems to be what it says - certainly not the support group). So I can look forward to being harassed by the JC ...


If it's any help, there might not be be much in the way of "come to the JobCentre and talk about what to do on WRAG". I have not had much, about one or two very civil chats - I think they're probably just too busy and overloaded to harass you much, although it might depend on where you live.  Good luck.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 22, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> I've had to rearrange my f2f as I had no one to go with me.
> My nephew's outcome was unexpected.  He suffers from depression and went for his assessment about 2 weeks ago.  He doesn't have problems with going out.  Meeting people. Travelling on public transport.   He goes his own shopping etc.   We all fully expected him to fail.  But he's just been notified he's passed. And letter states they won't need to reassess him again for 1.5yrs.	Really shocked tbh,   seeing how hard it is now.



Wow, that is a weird one, if he's OK going out and can do shopping and public transport.  Good for him. 

I'm sorry you had to re-schedule your own appointment. I hope you can find someone. I went alone but I agree it must be better to take someone with you if you can find anyone.  Finger crossed.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 22, 2016)

I had the dreaded brown envelope this morning. Turned out to be an apology for taking so long to make a decision. Only had the assessment at the start of the month and was told it would take 4-6 weeks to make a decision. 

Still not had the travel expenses back yet though. How long does it take the tossers to write a cheque?


----------



## Biscuitician (Jul 22, 2016)

Celyn said:


> If it's any help, there might not be be much in the way of "come to the JobCentre and talk about what to do on WRAG". I have not had much, about one or two very civil chats - I think they're probably just too busy and overloaded to harass you much, although it might depend on where you live.  Good luck.


Sounds great but I doubt I'll be that lucky.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Jul 22, 2016)

Biscuitician said:


> Sounds great but I doubt I'll be that lucky.



I've been in the WRAG group for about 4yrs.  Hasn't been too much aggro from JCP.   I had to go for about 6 appointments at the beginning.  But since then I've been more or less left alone.  Had a letter to go in Jan just gone.  But it was only a new adviser taking over my usual advisers  "customers"  Wanted a catch up.  That's all.  Try not to worry.


----------



## iona (Jul 25, 2016)

Well that went well 

I got a text a few months ago reminding me about my assessment appointment the next day up in Edinburgh (I'm in Sussex!) - turned out the Jobcentre had been sending half my post to a correspondence address from several years ago... Phoned up, explained the situation and got a new ESA50 sent to the correct address which I then filled in and sent back. It must have been received because I filled in the "why you're sending this form back late" bit and got a letter a few weeks later saying they accepted the reason I'd given. Anyway, got to my assessment apt today and they claimed to have never received the form and wouldn't even accept that another one had been sent out after the one I didn't get, because it had been sent from somewhere else so didn't show up on their computer. 

I already find all that jobcentre shit really stressful and I've been worse than usual for the last week for some reason and the surprise of them not having my form just added to that, so I was rocking and scratching the skin off my hands because I do that when I can't just get away from what's stressing me out, and the nurse I saw raised her voice at me several times to say I had to stop that / hold my bag / do this instead or she'd stop the interview. So then I was even more stressed & anxious, and angry with her, and trying to concentrate on at least not drawing any more blood, and I couldn't actually manage all that and string a sentence together.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2016)

iona said:


> Well that went well
> 
> I got a text a few months ago reminding me about my assessment appointment the next day up in Edinburgh (I'm in Sussex!) - turned out the Jobcentre had been sending half my post to a correspondence address from several years ago... Phoned up, explained the situation and got a new ESA50 sent to the correct address which I then filled in and sent back. It must have been received because I filled in the "why you're sending this form back late" bit and got a letter a few weeks later saying they accepted the reason I'd given. Anyway, got to my assessment apt today and they claimed to have never received the form and wouldn't even accept that another one had been sent out after the one I didn't get, because it had been sent from somewhere else so didn't show up on their computer.
> 
> I already find all that jobcentre shit really stressful and I've been worse than usual for the last week for some reason and the surprise of them not having my form just added to that, so I was rocking and scratching the skin off my hands because I do that when I can't just get away from what's stressing me out, and the nurse I saw raised her voice at me several times to say I had to stop that / hold my bag / do this instead or she'd stop the interview. So then I was even more stressed & anxious, and angry with her, and trying to concentrate on at least not drawing any more blood, and I couldn't actually manage all that and string a sentence together.


you were concentrating on drawing blood from the wrong body 

i wonder, did you get any of this 'it's not on our system' nonsense in writing? have you considered making a complaint? you might find just writing it out carthartick.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 25, 2016)

iona, that's horrible. I mean it's bad in all sort of ways. It beats me why they can't admit to post sometimes going astray, and if they still use an address you haven't lived at for years, I'm not surprised there's a muddle but it's their fault.

As for the nurse getting bossy and telling you what to do - hell, did she imagine you ought to be all calm and settled. even so, raising her voice and yapping at you was never going to help.  What a bloody shower.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you were concentrating on drawing blood from the wrong body ...


Haha!


----------



## iona (Jul 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> you were concentrating on drawing blood from the wrong body
> 
> i wonder, did you get any of this 'it's not on our system' nonsense in writing? have you considered making a complaint? you might find just writing it out carthartick.



I couldn't really concentrate on anything other than trying to answer her questions and get out of there without getting nicked for assault. I'll think about complaining but tbh I don't think it'll do anything.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 25, 2016)

It's hard to keep hold of your own thoughts in those place and this nurse sounds downright nasty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2016)

iona said:


> I couldn't really concentrate on anything other than trying to answer her questions and get out of there without getting nicked for assault. I'll think about complaining but tbh I don't think it'll do anything.


yeh but then you complain about the handling of the complaint and then you escalate it and then you escalate it...


----------



## iona (Jul 25, 2016)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but then you complain about the handling of the complaint and then you escalate it and then you escalate it...



I think they're all a bunch of cunts who don't give a fuck about people though, no matter how high up you go...


----------



## iona (Jul 25, 2016)

I had to go to East fucking Croydon too and there's only one train back every hour. So obviously I got to the station 55 minutes before the next train, which is now delayed


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 25, 2016)

iona said:


> I think they're all a bunch of cunts who don't give a fuck about people though, no matter how high up you go...


no indeed. but make them work, damn it, make them work


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2016)

In a fair world, luck wouldn't come into it.  In a fair world, tomorrow's tribunal wouldn't be faced unrepresented because every source of representation for these has become overstretched and underfunded.  This is not a fair world, and it's not just about one case, this shouldn't be happening to anyone else either.

PIP appeal Tribunal Day -1, Fortuna be kind.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 28, 2016)

Good luck VP and Greebo.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 28, 2016)

Yes good luck VP and Greebo


----------



## spirals (Jul 28, 2016)

Hope it goes ok Greebo & ViolentPanda


----------



## Celt (Jul 28, 2016)

I finally got my decision on PIP,  I got standard rate care and low(standard?) rate mobility,  I'm going to accept this, I think its fair.  I need to get in touch with motability and see what happens to my adapted car?  I am going to have to buy a car, I'm hoping there is some way I can buy this car.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 28, 2016)

spirals said:


> Hope it goes ok Greebo & ViolentPanda



So do we!!! 

It's been hilarious, reading through the report by the "healthcare professional". He's mangled what I've told him, made assumptions, quantified his asking me to recall three items after 2 minutes, as a "memory test", and in one case, derived a whole page of data from 2 minutes of strength testing my limbs.

This despite me submitting to them the results of my TWO 2.5hr-long sets of memory tests conducted by the Memory Clinic at St. Thomas's Hosp, and the professional opinions of a consultant neuro-psychiatrist and a consultant neuro-psychologist, and despite the fact that a couple of weeks after the Atos exam, I had an assessment by a Consultant Physiotherapist that did the same strength tests, but took 20 minutes to do them, and found markedly different results from the Atos monkey.


----------



## Libertad (Jul 28, 2016)

Kick ass VP and Greebo.


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## WouldBe (Jul 28, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> quantified his asking me to recall three items after 2 minutes, as a "memory test",


They asked me this. I got confused and gave the last item first then couldn't work out what came *after* that. 



> and in one case, derived a whole page of data from 2 minutes of strength testing my limbs


When she tested my strength she placed her hand on my right shin and told me to lift my leg up. I queried the 'up' bit several times before extending my lower leg as I assumed that was what she meant. Perhaps I should have lifted my leg up and kneed her in the face.  


Got a dreaded brown envelope yesterday, when I picked up the courage to open it it was form ESA not PIP to say 'due to a change in circumstances my ESA would be staying the same.'


----------



## Celyn (Jul 28, 2016)

Fingers crossed, ViolentPanda and Greebo


----------



## Celt (Jul 29, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Fingers crossed, ViolentPanda and Greebo


I hope so too


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2016)

The good wishes and crossed fingers have obviously worked, you beautiful people!

I just had a call from the Tribunal Service, informing me that due to massive backlogs, some cases where a hearing was requested, have been decided "on the papers". Apparently the tribunal decided that the original decision and the Mandatory Reconsideration were unfair, and that I should receive the Enhanced rate for Daily Living, as well as for Mobility! We don't have to attend this afternoon!

Being almost pathologically paranoid where the DWP is concerned (and because I've heard of the DWP giving people misleading information regarding their tribunal), I phoned them back and asked a different person to check my case, giving them my case number, rather than my personal details. The information was confirmed - that my case had been decided in my favour, that my award was now Enhanced/Enhanced, and that I would be backpaid to reflect this (about £500, I think).

What can I say, but that I think this bears out what I've been saying for years - if it's at all possible to appeal, then do so!!!


----------



## xsunnysuex (Jul 29, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The good wishes and crossed fingers have obviously worked, you beautiful people!
> 
> I just had a call from the Tribunal Service, informing me that due to massive backlogs, some cases where a hearing was requested, have been decided "on the papers". Apparently the tribunal decided that the original decision and the Mandatory Reconsideration were unfair, and that I should receive the Enhanced rate for Daily Living, as well as for Mobility! We don't have to attend this afternoon!
> 
> ...


Congratulations.  Really pleased for you.   x


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 29, 2016)

Wow that's great news! Congratulations


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 29, 2016)

Congrats. According to B&W you might end up getting paid both PIP and DLA at the same time. Don't spend it all at once they *will* want it back.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 29, 2016)

So relieved, but we really could have done without the wait.

If ATOS had done a proper assessment and if the DWP had read the claim properly in the first place, none of the stress and reduction in income need have happened.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jul 29, 2016)

Congratulations ViolentPanda and Greebo! but yes Greebo, it is so annoying that, even taking into account the disgusting way they've changed the goalposts for PIP to exclude lots of people who have been claiming DLA, they aren't making the correct decisions with the new criteria in the first place in so many cases  - almost like they're hoping disabled people, their carers, and their families will just give up and go without


----------



## Libertad (Jul 29, 2016)

Get in! Really glad that things have worked out for you both as they should have done in the first instance. Have a restful weekend.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2016)

Congratulations ViolentPanda and Greebo brilliant news 

iona please do consider appealing and/or complaining if you feel up to it. I'm happy to help with letters x


----------



## Greebo (Jul 29, 2016)

iona VP would also be very happy to help, although not today as he's sleeping off the shock right now.

It's not just about the money, which matters when on a tight budget.   It's about sending a message that claimants are to be helped, not screwed over.


----------



## iona (Jul 29, 2016)

Thanks equationgirl and Greebo / ViolentPanda that's kind of you all  I'm just going to leave it for now and see what the result of the assessment is but I'll keep both your offers in mind in case I do need to appeal. 

Glad you got the result you should have Greebo & VP.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2016)

Greebo said:


> iona VP would also be very happy to help, although not today as he's sleeping off the shock right now.
> 
> It's not just about the money, which matters when on a tight budget.   It's about sending a message that claimants are to be helped, not screwed over.


Couldn't agree more. Those who most need help and support should not be abandoned to the wolves like the DWP and ATOS are keen to do. The cockweaselly arsetrumpets that they are.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Congrats. According to B&W you might end up getting paid both PIP and DLA at the same time. Don't spend it all at once they *will* want it back.



I've already transitted, so it's not really a worry, thank fuck!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Congratulations ViolentPanda and Greebo! but yes Greebo, it is so annoying that, even taking into account the disgusting way they've changed the goalposts for PIP to exclude lots of people who have been claiming DLA, they aren't making the correct decisions with the new criteria in the first place in so many cases  - almost like they're hoping disabled people, their carers, and their families will just give up and go without



What really pissed me off, was getting a copy of the report by the "healthcare professional", where what I'd told him (we recorded!) and what he'd written were at odds. He'd pretty much edited what I'd said, leaving out a lot of important information. The most hilarious bit though, was where he'd done some muscle stress tests. He forgot about these until we were almost out the door, and then did them in 3-4 minutes. From this *3-4 minutes of spaffing about, he produced an entire A4 page of detailed data about my degree of limb movement! Obviously a true expert in the field of musculo-skeletal problems!!! 

*In comparison, I had an appointment with a consultant physiotherapist 3 weeks after the Atos assessment to do much the same set of tests, and she took over an hour to do fewer, but to do them properly.


----------



## Celyn (Jul 29, 2016)

That's stunningly good news!    Better had they not left you worrying till the last minute, but it's still great news.  Very pleased for you!


----------



## BCBlues (Jul 30, 2016)

Great news ViolentPanda and Greebo.
A bit more good news for us all here too...

PIP: walking through pain is not walking to an acceptable standard | Disability Rights UK

Keep up the good fight everyone.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 2, 2016)

The judgement from the Courts & Tribunals Service just arrived. It's very interesting reading. The DWP decision-maker awarded me 9 points for Daily Living, with no points scored for 3 different sections. The Tribunal awarded me *18* points for Daily Living, including scoring me 1pt, 4pts and 4pts in the three sections that the DWP awarded me no points in!

It's worth, if you can, taking these DWP bastards on.


----------



## BCBlues (Aug 3, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The judgement from the Courts & Tribunals Service just arrived. It's very interesting reading. The DWP decision-maker awarded me 9 points for Daily Living, with no points scored for 3 different sections. The Tribunal awarded me *18* points for Daily Living, including scoring me 1pt, 4pts and 4pts in the three sections that the DWP awarded me no points in!
> 
> It's worth, if you can, taking these DWP bastards on.



Well done VP. Thats cheered my day up.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 3, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Well done VP. Thats cheered my day up.


That was the general idea - any time that one of us wins, it adds to the case law which improves the chances of every other claimant.


----------



## passenger (Aug 3, 2016)

,,


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 11, 2016)

Got my ESA f2f at 11am  tomorrow.  Crapping myself.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 11, 2016)

Eek.  Best of luck. Fingers crossed and all that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 11, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my ESA f2f at 11am  tomorrow.  Crapping myself.



The best of luck to you, Sue.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 11, 2016)

Today I apparently had phone calls from the DWP. That is, landline phone rang and I didn't pick it up, thinking it would be a nuisance call, and it rang again later. MUCH later, i.e c. 17.20, I looked at my mobile, which showed two missed calls from an unavailable number, *and* a text message from the DWP saying that they were going to phone me and that the phone number might show as unavailable or withheld. That *might* have been useful to know, but of course it was far too late.

Now it doesn't even seem possible to reply to their damned text message.  So will I now be in the bad books for not replying and for not picking up the phone?  Surely I am allowed to dislike phone calls?


----------



## Greebo (Aug 12, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my ESA f2f at 11am  tomorrow.  Crapping myself.


Holding a good thought for you, best of luck.


----------



## pogo 10 (Aug 12, 2016)

Good luck x sunny suex


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## crossthebreeze (Aug 12, 2016)

Good luck xsunnysuex


----------



## Celyn (Aug 12, 2016)

... and more good luck!


----------



## Libertad (Aug 12, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my ESA f2f at 11am  tomorrow.  Crapping myself.



All the best Sue.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Aug 12, 2016)

Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.


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## WouldBe (Aug 12, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Today I apparently had phone calls from the DWP. That is, landline phone rang and I didn't pick it up, thinking it would be a nuisance call, and it rang again later. MUCH later, i.e c. 17.20, I looked at my mobile, which showed two missed calls from an unavailable number, *and* a text message from the DWP saying that they were going to phone me and that the phone number might show as unavailable or withheld. That *might* have been useful to know, but of course it was far too late.
> 
> Now it doesn't even seem possible to reply to their damned text message.  So will I now be in the bad books for not replying and for not picking up the phone?  Surely I am allowed to dislike phone calls?



I dislike phone calls as well. I always let the answer machine cut in but idiots like the DWP don't say anything let alone leave a message even though I've stated I dislike phone calls on all the forms I've filled in. 

I've had a few unavailable phone calls recently wonder if they may be from DWP.


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## Libertad (Aug 12, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.


----------



## BCBlues (Aug 12, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.



Prats aint they. Dont let it get you down.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 12, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.


Horrible. And very horrible.  How is it that they are allowed to do a sudden cancellation, but no actual person  is allowed to cancel on grounds of "really cannot go out today" despite making efforts to do so?

Oh damn, I do really hope things get to work better for you.


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## equationgirl (Aug 13, 2016)

Bastards.  if you did that there'd be sanctions.





xsunnysuex said:


> Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 13, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Fuckers.   Got 5 mins away from assessment center and they phoned and cancelled.


Grr!  Put in a formal complaint, in writing (ie on paper).  Request a refund of your travel expenses and also of the paid time if somebody had to take part of their day off work to go with you.

Refunding at least travel expenses is standard practce and AFAIK friendofdorothy actually got a written apology after a cancellation.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 13, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Grr!  Put in a formal complaint, in writing (ie on paper).  Request a refund of your travel expenses and also of the paid time if somebody had to take part of their day off work to go with you.
> 
> Refunding at least travel expenses is standard practce and AFAIK friendofdorothy actually got a written apology after a cancellation.


got a cheque for my loss of earnings too as I had taken a day off to accompany B. They didn't seem to give a fuck about upsetting and making buscador ill though.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 13, 2016)

Hell. Not sure if I want to "like" that or not, if you see what I mean.  Liked for not losing money exactly, but very much unlike in all possible other ways.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 13, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> <snip> They didn't seem to give a fuck about upsetting and making buscador ill though.


They wouldn't - it's the same mindset as not caring how long a claimant is kept waiting around before signing on - the claimant's time and health are irrelevant.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 13, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Today I apparently had phone calls from the DWP. That is, landline phone rang and I didn't pick it up, thinking it would be a nuisance call, and it rang again later. MUCH later, i.e c. 17.20, I looked at my mobile, which showed two missed calls from an unavailable number, *and* a text message from the DWP saying that they were going to phone me and that the phone number might show as unavailable or withheld. That *might* have been useful to know, but of course it was far too late.
> 
> Now it doesn't even seem possible to reply to their damned text message.  So will I now be in the bad books for not replying and for not picking up the phone?  Surely I am allowed to dislike phone calls?


I don't pick up most calls to my landlines, and at work I never pick unknown number calls because it's generally spammers. They could at least leave a message,  but if you have specified not to phone then they should abide by that.

But as Greebo says,  they don't give a shit about the claimant.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 14, 2016)

I've just had to get a 14 day extension to fill in my pip form. I was originally down as getting DLA indefinately. I'm always bad at filling in official forms and often don't open my mail or answer the telephone even if I know who's calling. My close friends understand that sometimes I don't want to talk ( find talking sometimes exhausting). My local CAB is shite and getting an appointment with the pontif would be easier. When I originally applied I was backed by ex union people at a local resource centre. SHARP - shiney advice and resource project.  Fantastic place but I have moved to Durham and can longer use them due to local funding. To top it all off my dad passed away sunday gone but they would still only give me 14 days. Gives me a window of about 3 days to sort it inbetween sorting and attending funeral 4 and half hours away and working a shitty job were compassionate leave is at a minimum. Any advice on anyone who can help, someone mentioned 'mind' helping them out.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 14, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> I've just had to get a 14 day extension to fill in my pip form. I was originally down as getting DLA indefinately. I'm always bad at filling in official forms and often don't open my mail or answer the telephone even if I know who's calling. My close friends understand that sometimes I don't want to talk ( find talking sometimes exhausting). My local CAB is shite and getting an appointment with the pontif would be easier. When I originally applied I was backed by ex union people at a local resource centre. SHARP - shiney advice and resource project.  Fantastic place but I have moved to Durham and can longer use them due to local funding. To top it all off my dad passed away sunday gone but they would still only give me 14 days. Gives me a window of about 3 days to sort it inbetween sorting and attending funeral 4 and half hours away and working a shitty job were compassionate leave is at a minimum. Any advice on anyone who can help, someone mentioned 'mind' helping them out.


Sorry to hear about your bereavement Calamity1971, it sounds like you're having a difficult time of it with the PIP form too.  For help with the form you could try Durham Community Support Centre (open on Wednesdays and Thursdays) or Durham CC Welfare Rights (open mornings mon-fri).  Also Benefits and Work have a guide to filling in PIP forms which is really good - but it'll cost you £19.95 to get access to their guides for a year.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 14, 2016)

crossthebreeze said:


> Sorry to hear about your bereavement Calamity1971, it sounds like you're having a difficult time of it with the PIP form too.  For help with the form you could try Durham Community Support Centre (open on Wednesdays and Thursdays) or Durham CC Welfare Rights (open mornings mon-fri).  Also Benefits and Work have a guide to filling in PIP forms which is really good - but it'll cost you £19.95 to get access to their guides for a year.



If Calamity1971 PMs me an e-mail address, I'll mail them a pdf of the latest B & W PIP guide.


----------



## redcogs (Aug 14, 2016)

Greebo said:


> That was the general idea - any time that one of us wins, it adds to the case law which improves the chances of every other claimant.


Can't begin to tell you how much i admire you and VP for all the excellent and consistent advocacy work you put into this thread in particular.  The fighting spirit you both display really is outstanding. Marvellous comrades!


----------



## Greebo (Aug 14, 2016)

redcogs said:


> Can't begin to tell you how much i admire you and VP for all the excellent and consistent advocacy work you put into this thread in particular.  <snip>




We wouldn't be here without the help, support, and advocacy of others over the years, so it's really only paying a small amount of it forwards.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Aug 15, 2016)

crossthebreeze, thanks for links. I go past the miners hall frequently and never realised they had them advice sessions. I have until the 26th of this month to return it so i am hoping I can get to see someone next wednesday.
ViolentPanda, thanks also for your help. Have pm'd you my email.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Aug 15, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> crossthebreeze, thanks for links. I go past the miners hall frequently and never realised they had them advice sessions. I have until the 26th of this month to return it so i am hoping I can get to see someone next wednesday.


I'm a little bit unsure about the set up at the miners hall because its a fairly new project (run by sound trade union people though) so i'd suggest giving them a ring or email (from the contact page of their website) before heading down.  Good luck with your form, and I hope you get the help you need!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2016)

£518 of Her Majesty's finest quids deposited in my account yesterday: 19 weeks of P.I.P. back-pay. Half to Greebo, and half to me.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> £518 of Her Majesty's finest quids deposited in my account yesterday: 19 weeks of P.I.P. back-pay. Half to Greebo, and half to me.


Which was just as well, because the ESA and IS which were due were delayed - apparently one third of all benefit payments due yesterday were.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

Great stuff! Well done!


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

I've been refused ESA. Is it better to ask for a mandatory reconsideration by letter or by phone?


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 17, 2016)

Sorry to hear that Celyn. I'm not sure, someone will know.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

Thanks. I'm sort of tempted to phone just to get it done with, but I don't know if they then go on to ask questions on the phone. Letter might be better in permitting me to state quite simply "want reconsideration". Oh god, a bad little rhyme invades my post just when thinking things couldn't get much worse. 

_Edited to make more sense_


----------



## chainsawjob (Aug 17, 2016)

Yes, I suppose they might go on to ask the questions if you phone, but it would also be nice to have it done without waiting for a reply. Not sure.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I've been refused ESA. Is it better to ask for a mandatory reconsideration by letter or by phone?


VP did both.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Thanks. I'm sort to phone jsut to get it done with, but I don't know if they then go on to ask questions on the phone. Letter might be better in permitting me to state quite simply "want reconsideration". Oh god, a bad little rhyme invades my post just when thinking things couldn't get much worse.



I phoned them, but wouldn't answer questions over the phone because the reasons for asking were quite complex, and needed careful explanation on paper, hence requesting in writing too.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

i am very dim and stupid when worried, so bear with me. Is it the case that you phoned them, and during that phone call, they demanded all your reasons?  (See, I'm kind of hoping I can get away with a simple phone call for now, and write with reasons later, giving me time to make a list gradually - also it it is difficult to get out to a post box).

And I am horribly sorry that my whining takes over from your great win, and the generality of congrats to VP and Greebo.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> i am very dim and stupid when worried, so bear with me. Is it the case that you phoned them, and during that phone call, they demanded all your reasons?  (See, I'm kind of hoping I can get away with a simple phone call for now, and write with reasons later, giving me time to make a list gradually - also it it is difficult to get out to a post box)


It's not whining  - this is a support and information thread.  

AFAIK VP gave a rough summary of why, but made it clear that there were several complex reasons better put on paper.


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

Right. So what's needed, really, is me to put on fake bravery a pick up the sodding phone and dial.    It really was a genuine request for advice too, but I now must admit to myself that my Demon of Procrastination was also at work.  
  Just bloody do it, Celyn, and you can have nice cup decaff afterwards!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> i am very dim and stupid when worried, so bear with me. Is it the case that you phoned them, and during that phone call, they demanded all your reasons?



They didn't demand.



> (See, I'm kind of hoping I can get away with a simple phone call for now, and write with reasons later, giving me time to make a list gradually - also it it is difficult to get out to a post box).
> 
> And I am horribly sorry that my whining takes over from your great win, and the generality of congrats to VP and Greebo.



They wanted to know my reasons. 

As I know that they have dialog boxes on their computers that don't allow long explanations, and so would paraphrase anything lengthy I said, I told them that my reasons were complex, and would take a couple of pages of A4 to cover, and that I'd prefer to give them my substantive reasons by post. They were fine about it.

Bear in mind that you need to get your letter in fairly promptly after asking for the reconsideration - 7-10 working days at most - so it doesn't give you extra time at all, so to speak.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 17, 2016)

You can do it Celyn 

ViolentPanda and Greebo congratulations on your amazing win, well done - any reason given for the payment delay?


----------



## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> ...
> Bear in mind that you need to get your letter in fairly promptly after asking for the reconsideration - 7-10 working days at most - so it doesn't give you extra time at all, so to speak.



Damn,  I thought a month. VERY lucky that I posted here then. Right, me do letter soon.

The lady I spoke to was a bit unpleasant or a bit dim or both, which I hadn't expected, so very soon I wanted nothing to much as to be off the phone, given that I had been on hold twice for ages.

Example, her office having the wrong phone number for me is somehow a failure on my part to prove my identity, Except that the DWP do indeed have my phone number.  When that sort of odd little muddle happens, I'm always inclined to think "little clerical error, no big deal", but that person wanted it literally to be a "fail" on my part.

Not a chat that went particularly well. But could have been worse, I suppose.

_Edited to add_ - good point about them having little boxes to fill in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 17, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Damn,  I thought a month. VERY lucky that I posted here then. Right, me do letter soon.



The official time period is a month. However, if you look near the top right-hand of your letter, it'll have something about being sent from a mail-handling site. Basically, if you post off your letter tomorrow, it'll take anything up to 7 days to arrive at the desk of the appropriate person, because first it goes to a handling site, where it's opened and sorted, then it's forwarded to the appropriate dept's mailroom, and only then does it reach a desk. 



> The lady I spoke to was a bit unpleasant or a bit dim or both, which I hadn't expected, so very soon I wanted nothing to much as to be off the phone, given that I had been on hold twice for ages.
> 
> Example, her office having the wrong phone number for me is somehow a failure on my part to prove my identity, Except that the DWP do indeed have my phone number.  When that sort of odd little muddle happens, I'm always inclined to think "little clerical error, no big deal", but that person wanted it literally to be a "fail" on my part.
> 
> ...



I've found that unless you phone first thing in the morning, most of them are abrupt at best, rude at worst. Possibly something to do with DWP call centres - and most of the rest of the dept - running on less than half the staff they had when the coalition took over in 2010. I won't make excuses for them - bad "customer service" isn't excusable, even if the customer is a thoroughgoing cunt - but theirs isn't a job I'd ever want to do.


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## Celyn (Aug 17, 2016)

Yeah, you're right, but I never say things like "you are wrong and silly", only "gosh, I don't know how that happened and they do have my number, oh well, these things happen and we can sort it out blah blah" and I don't like it when someone's first and apparently only thought is to assign right and wrong and blame. 

I did encounter a nice one once who made me laugh - me phoning DWP to explain that I had changed address, so he obviously wanted to know if any other things had changed, so I said "no, everything the same, same name, same phone number - just the address, so you'll be glad to hear this is all nice and straightforward" and the chap said "oh, NOTHING is straightforward in this place, madam".


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 20, 2016)

Ha. Got the stupid brown envelope this morning. Got awarded the grand total of 0 points on both sections.  This was decided on the 'fact' that I was observed to walk 55M from the waiting room to the assessment room unaided with a normal gait (even though I was bouncing off the walls to get there) and therefore I can walk 200M unaided


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## chainsawjob (Aug 20, 2016)

Fucksake WouldBe


----------



## existentialist (Aug 20, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Ha. Got the stupid brown envelope this morning. Got awarded the grand total of 0 points on both sections.  This was decided on the 'fact' that I was observed to walk 55M from the waiting room to the assessment room unaided with a normal gait (even though I was bouncing off the walls to get there) and therefore I can walk 200M unaided


Cunts. Devious, scheming, lying cunts.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2016)

(((WouldBe))) You will, of course, appeal.  A one off instance is no proof that you'd be able to do that repeatedly, reliably, or safely, let alone without pain.


----------



## Greebo (Aug 20, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Cunts. Devious, scheming, lying cunts.


Being observed and covertly assessed from the very moment of a claimant's arrival is nothing new.  The same goes for observing and assessing the state of the claimant while departing.


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## iona (Aug 20, 2016)

I appear to have been put in the work related activity group. Haven't had a letter about their decision and what I got points for though, just a hugely confusing letter about various changes to the amount of ESA I receive, which says I've been at WRAG rate from May (  ) and that I've been underpaid because of something else but I might not get it back because of an overpayment from years ago I'm paying off atm. Loads of different "from [date] you will receive [£]", none of which match with the amount I've actually been getting. And another letter, sent the same day, just saying that I've been underpaid but by a completely different amount.


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## existentialist (Aug 20, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Being observed and covertly assessed from the very moment of a claimant's arrival is nothing new.  The same goes for observing and assessing the state of the claimant while departing.


No, I gathered as much. But to covertly observe and then deceitfully (mis)use the results of that observation...


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2016)

iona said:


> I appear to have been put in the work related activity group. Haven't had a letter about their decision and what I got points for though, just a hugely confusing letter about various changes to the amount of ESA I receive, which says I've been at WRAG rate from May (  ) and that I've been underpaid because of something else but I might not get it back because of an overpayment from years ago I'm paying off atm. Loads of different "from [date] you will receive [£]", none of which match with the amount I've actually been getting. And another letter, sent the same day, just saying that I've been underpaid but by a completely different amount.


I think it's usual (although not helpful) to receive multiple letters saying different things. If you feel able to, it might be worth phoning or writing to them asking which is correct. Although, that may prompt another wrong letter...


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2016)

existentialist said:


> No, I gathered as much. But to covertly observe and then deceitfully (mis)use the results of that observation...


Sadly standard practice I believe.  ViolentPanda wrote an entertaining summary of him and Greebo leaving the assessment centre once which went along the lines of 'if they were watching me to see if i would walk normally they would have got bored of me proceeding at the pace of an arthritic snail'. It is a standard and evil practice that should be excluded from the assessment.


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## equationgirl (Aug 21, 2016)

WouldBe sorry and angry to hear this. If you need help with the paperwork pm me, I'm happy to help you fight the bastards.


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## WouldBe (Aug 21, 2016)

Greebo said:


> (((WouldBe))) You will, of course, appeal.  A one off instance is no proof that you'd be able to do that repeatedly, reliably, or safely, let alone without pain.


Yes I will be definitely appealing after the mandatory reconsideration the cheeky fucks. Claimed I had no problems with my memory despite them having a copy of the DWP's work psychologists report that states the opposite and that was after at least 3 hours of assessment not a few minutes. They also claim I have no memory problems as I was able to recall dates problems were diagnosed. Since when has '94 - 95'ish being an accurate date recall?

Apparently I can manage my medication unaided yet the health assessor actually gave me some advice on how to make sure I took my meds properly.
Bouncing off walls shows no problems with balance.
Letting companies set up direct debits to pay your bills shows you are able to manage your finances.

I think I will include a line to the effect that "If you want to play these shitty games then so will I and will *NOT* be taking any immodium before any further assessments."

Now I need to transcribe the tape recording of the assessment.


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## WouldBe (Aug 22, 2016)

Just gathering some info to send with the reconsideration and looked on google maps at the assessment center. According to ATOS I was observed walking 55M from the waiting room to the assessment room, which was virtually a straight line apart from a short dog leg. Google maps say the building is 19.4M wide.

I notice ATOS didn't put on my report I can walk through walls


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## xsunnysuex (Aug 26, 2016)

Surely not... 

*THE DWP TAKES A RATHER SINISTER STANCE ON DISABLED AND NON DISABLED CLAIMANTS. PROVISION OF RESEARCH LAB FACILITIES FOR DWP.*


Being a disabled claimant is hard enough, the whole rigmarole of trying to ensure that you get money to live on, money that you deserve is unbelievably hard. Not happy with the methods that they already use to stigmatise ill and disabled claimants they have decided to go one step further.

At first I read this and couldn’t quite believe it. In essence they have recruited an agency to take part, alongside the DWP in what can only be seen as interrogation tactics, or methods used in police stations when interviewing possible criminals.

A claimant will be told to attend an office for an interview, as we know these interviews aren’t voluntary. If you don’t attend then it gives them the option of punishing you, usually by stopping your only source of income.

From what I have read a claimant will be asked to enter a room which consists of walls where mirrored glass or the like are being used. The interview will then be watched from behind the mirrored glass in the adjacent room. It says that claimants are supposed to be informed of this happening, but do they? The DWP have been less than forgoing with their honesty and cannot be relied on for telling the truth.

Here is the link to the advertisement for the tender for the position.

To add insult to injury the winning tender has been awarded £60,000 for undertaking this work. Seems like there’s a never ending money pit to fund the ill treatment of claimants, both disabled and non disabled and their carers.
Contracts Finder

This is particularly disturbing. Why would they want observe claimants in this way? Claimants who are acting lawfully and whom are the most vulnerable in society?

I can only sumise that this will be used to both further intimidate and also to take notes both on body language and physical communication in such a way that can be used against them. Why hide behind a mirrored screen? Why drag claimants and their carers in for these interviews if it isn’t to try and put them off from claiming the money that they need to survive?

The DWP takes a rather sinister stance on disabled and non disabled claimants. Provision of Research Lab Facilities for DWP.


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## xsunnysuex (Sep 6, 2016)

Got my rearranged ESA f2f tomorrow at 9.30am.   Wish me luck...


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 6, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my rearranged ESA f2f tomorrow at 9.30am.   Wish me luck...



Good luck, Sue!


----------



## BCBlues (Sep 6, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my rearranged ESA f2f tomorrow at 9.30am.   Wish me luck...



All the best Sue


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 6, 2016)

Good luck Sue!


----------



## Greebo (Sep 6, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Got my rearranged ESA f2f tomorrow at 9.30am.   Wish me luck...


Holding a good thought for you tomorrow - good luck!


----------



## Celyn (Sep 6, 2016)

Fingers crossed!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 6, 2016)

Best of luck xsunnysuex hope it goes ok x


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 6, 2016)

Thanks all.  Kinda glad it's at 9.30am.  No time to stew on it.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 7, 2016)

Bit late but best of luck to you xsunnysuex.


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## xsunnysuex (Sep 7, 2016)

Well that's over.  The assessor was nice.  Too nice.  Not hopeful.


----------



## Celyn (Sep 7, 2016)

I hope you're wrong (in the nicest possible way).


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I hope you're wrong (in the nicest possible way).


I hope so too.  But not holding my breath.  My problems are mental health.  Not physical.   She had me standing there copying her movements.   Hands up,  hands above my head,  hands in a clapping position etc.   Probably to see how I could understand commands?  Not feeling good about this at all.


----------



## Celyn (Sep 7, 2016)

Well, to be honest, I feared you were spot on about "too nice. Not hopeful", but I thought I'd experiment with saying something cheerful.  

It sounds as though they pretty much ignored mental health and concentrated on physical stuff. And that sounds exactly how it went with me.  It left me sort of thinking "Hell, I never said I had trouble moving hands, etc, so why concentrate on it?" I wonder whether it might be deliberate, in that it takes up time, fills up the appointment while really not addressing the actual reasons for claiming ESA.

So, I'm inclined to share your pessimism here, but I do want to be wrong.


----------



## BCBlues (Sep 7, 2016)

Youve done all you can for now xsunnysuex  you have turned up and did what they asked of you. Thats difficult enough so well done.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 7, 2016)

Celyn said:


> I wonder whether it might be deliberate, in that it takes up time, fills up the appointment while really not addressing the actual reasons for claiming ESA.


You could be right.  Mine lasted 40 mins.  But it seemed like 4hrs.  She did seem nice.  I got really upset at one point and she went to get me a cup of water.  Kept telling me how well I was doing,  blah blah blah.  But don't trust anyone that's that nice.  Just have to wait now.  But I think I know what way it's heading.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 7, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Youve done all you can for now xsunnysuex  you have turned up and did what they asked of you. Thats difficult enough so well done.


Thank you.   x


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 7, 2016)

Fingers crossed xsunnysuex x x


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 7, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Fingers crossed xsunnysuex x x


Thankyou.   x


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 7, 2016)

Hope it went well.


Just putting the finishing touches to my mandatory reconsideration letter. I'm strongly thinking about including the following para 


> As I have been previously awarded DLA at enhanced rate mobility and middle rate care on several occasions, to now be awarded no points at all for any category especially for someone as vulnerable as me with depression and severe memory problems is bordering on being malicious. Consequently my depression is now probably worse than it’s ever been. I am no longer in the ‘sometimes thinking about suicide’ stage I’m back in the planning stage. So congratulations you’ve almost won. If this is the DWP’s objective then there is a railway, a tree lined canal and a bridge over a busy bypass close to me, If you’d like to let me know how you’d like me to go, I’ll see if I can oblige.


  

What does urban think?


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Hope it went well.
> 
> 
> Just putting the finishing touches to my mandatory reconsideration letter. I'm strongly thinking about including the following para
> ...


I would end the paragraph after 'back to the planning stage '.i'd be tempted to throw in 'constant suicidal ideation' too. Have you spoken to your GP about your suicidal thoughts?

I'm sorry things are worse for you right now


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 9, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> I would end the paragraph after 'back to the planning stage '.


Yes I ended the letter at that point. It's now in the post.

I was going to ask the DWP if they were playing suicide bingo or running a sweepstake. 



> Have you spoken to your GP about your suicidal thoughts?
> 
> I'm sorry things are worse for you right now


Thanks for your concern. I've not spoken to GP about it. Rest assured I will if things get too bad. With my CFS I've not got the energy to think too much about it and memory loss means I'll forget about it soon enough anyway. 

There's no way I'm letting the bastards off that easily anyway.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 9, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Yes I ended the letter at that point. It's now in the post.
> 
> I was going to ask the DWP if they were playing suicide bingo or running a sweepstake.
> 
> ...


You always have us WouldBe 

I'm reassured slightly by your post, if you need to chat feel free to pm me.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 9, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> You always have us WouldBe
> 
> I'm reassured slightly by your post, if you need to chat feel free to pm me.



*Links hands with equationgirl, sings _Kumbaya_*


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 10, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> *Links hands with equationgirl, sings _Kumbaya_*


Oh fuck off, I'm singing kumbaya for nobody


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 10, 2016)

I was going to add a P.S. to the letter saying "Expletives omitted as I haven't the energy to fucking type them all."


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 10, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> You always have us WouldBe
> 
> I'm reassured slightly by your post, if you need to chat feel free to pm me.


I think it was more the frustration and anger that caused it. I just needed to get the reconsideration letter out of the way. It's done and been received by the DWP.


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## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

I got my appointment through today. My assessment is at Bannatynes? I had to double check to see if I was seeing things. I still can't belive I'm going to have to go to a fucking health club and ask at reception where I need to be. I feel intimidated before I even get there. Question is, was there nowhere else and how much is Duncan the minimum wage paying capitilist bastard getting for renting out his rooms?


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## existentialist (Sep 10, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> I was going to add a P.S. to the letter saying "Expletives omitted as I haven't the energy to fucking type them all."


Probably just as well: they'd have terminated your claim for "causing distress", or something.


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## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> I got my appointment through today. My assessment is at Bannatynes? I had to double check to see if I was seeing things. I still can't belive I'm going to have to go to a fucking health club and ask at reception where I need to be. I feel intimidated before I even get there. Question is, was there nowhere else and how much is Duncan the minimum wage paying capitilist bastard getting for renting out his rooms?


Taking the piss ain't they.  Could ask for it to be at a different assessment centre?   I was able to change mine.


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## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

They did used to have an office next to the jobcentre in Durham. I'm guessing the nearest one after durham will be newcastle. Might try on Monday to see what they say. I really can't face walking in there amongst the carpet carriers and protein slurpers, receptionist probably included.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> They did used to have an office next to the jobcentre in Durham. I'm guessing the nearest one after durham will be newcastle. Might try on Monday to see what they say. I really can't face walking in there amongst the carpet carriers and protein slurpers, receptionist probably included.


No I don't think I'd be too keen either.   I had no problem changing mine.  Good luck.   x


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

Cheers xsunnysuex, Probs using his clubs throughout the Northeast though? Got his fingers in all pies up here.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> Cheers xsunnysuex, Probs using his clubs throughout the Northeast though? Got his fingers in all pies up here.


The one in Durham is still there by the look of it.	
Durham | Health Assessment Advisory Service


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

They do the ESA assessments there. No idea why the pip should be somewhere else, unless it's overspill. Seem to be seeing people rather rapidly at the moment. They only received my form on the 6th!


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> They do the ESA assessments there. No idea why the pip should be somewhere else, unless it's overspill. Seem to be seeing people rather rapidly at the moment. They only received my form on the 6th!


Arhh didn't realize it was pip.  You should still phone and ask.   x


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> Seem to be seeing people rather rapidly at the moment. They only received my form on the 6th!


Bloody hell.  That is quick.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

Will do. x


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 10, 2016)

The letter they sent is dated the 8th! Original one I got said it could take up to 16 weeks before an appointment was available. Quicker they get us of benefits the more money they save eh?


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 10, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> Quicker they get us of benefits the more money they save eh?


Your not wrong.  Someone I know had there ESA assessment,   and was refused 3 days later.  Crazy.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 10, 2016)

Best of luck Calamity1971 x


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 11, 2016)

Thanks equationgirl, just the fact that there are people on here who really care makes me feel less isolated. Who would have thought googling 'what happened to 'beanfeast soya mince' could have lead me to such a helpful forum. x


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 11, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Bloody hell.  That is quick.


Same happened with my sister. Sent off PIP form had the assessment within a week.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 11, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Probably just as well: they'd have terminated your claim for "causing distress", or something.


They've given me no points for anything so wouldn't make a difference. I was hoping the PS and suicide bingo bits would cause then to 'snap' so I could sue them or press for criminal charges to be brought.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 11, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> They've given me no points for anything so wouldn't make a difference. I was hoping the PS and suicide bingo bits would cause then to 'snap' so I could sue them or press for criminal charges to be brought.


NO POINTS FOR ANYTHING AT ALL???!!!!

How can that be even vaguely correct?


----------



## Greebo (Sep 11, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> They've given me no points for anything so wouldn't make a difference. I was hoping the PS and suicide bingo bits would cause then to 'snap' so I could sue them or press for criminal charges to be brought.


Bloody hell!  

A clear case for appealing - far more so than if you'd beeen given even 2 points.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 12, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> NO POINTS FOR ANYTHING AT ALL???!!!!
> 
> How can that be even vaguely correct?


It can't unless the decision maker was seriously incompetent or it was done maliciously. 
Considering a tribunal previously awarded me higher rate mobility and middle rate care DLA for 4 years you can understand my anger and depression.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 12, 2016)

Greebo said:


> Bloody hell!
> 
> A clear case for appealing - far more so than if you'd beeen given even 2 points.


The mandatory reconsideration has already gone in and I'm fully prepared to take it to tribunal as well. Just hope I don't get the 2 bastards I had at a previous tribunal where it was more like the spanish inquisition.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 12, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> It can't unless the decision maker was seriously incompetent or it was done maliciously.
> Considering a tribunal previously awarded me higher rate mobility and middle rate care DLA for 4 years you can understand my anger and depression.


Of course. It's a horrible process to have to go through.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 12, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Of course. It's a horrible process to have to go through.


And that's no accident.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 12, 2016)

existentialist said:


> And that's no accident.


Malicious fuckers.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 19, 2016)

Just received my ESA assessment report.  I haven't had my decision yet.	 Any ideas?


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If Calamity1971 PMs me an e-mail address, I'll mail them a pdf of the latest B & W PIP guide.


Can I have a copy as well please? I'0m helping a friend of mine fill in PIP forms and accompanying them to their WCA in lieu of rent while I'm in hiding from my violent ex.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> Just received my ESA assessment report.  I haven't had my decision yet.	 Any ideas?
> 
> View attachment 92727



I can't be certain, but it looks like they're putting you in the WRAG group.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 19, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Can I have a copy as well please? I'0m helping a friend of mine fill in PIP forms and accompanying them to their WCA in lieu of rent while I'm in hiding from my violent ex.



You'll need to PM me an e-mail address to send the pdf to.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 19, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> I can't be certain, but it looks like they're putting you in the WRAG group.


I'd be happy with that.   It's what I have been in.  I failed last time and got WRAG on appeal.	People keep telling me DWP could deny it.   So will wait till I get official decision.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 20, 2016)

Any advice on accompanying someone to an ESA medical?


Is it too late to get recording permission in time for Friday? Can I take notes, etc? 

What if they want to try and do limb movement testa etc but they're too painful for my friend to do?

They have severe arthritis, but their pain relief is virtually nonexistent as they're a long standing opiate addict and getting their drugs councillor, and gp on the same page. 

They don't have a history of drug seeking, and in fact are only on a minimal methadone script that they got whilst undergoing get their second hip replacement. The gp won't even refer them for pain management for their knees , even though he can barely walk most days, can't use public transport, and pays for it even from a trip to the corner shop. 

Are there any guides to what I  need to take note of? Can I use my phone to record without permission, for my own notes?


----------



## existentialist (Sep 20, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Any advice on accompanying someone to an ESA medical?
> 
> 
> Is it too late to get recording permission in time for Friday? Can I take notes, etc?
> ...


The general advice seems to be that you can't record without permission. BUT, you can take notes, and who's to say you're not such a good note-taker that you were able to record the entire conversation verbatim, hem hem hem. And I believe tribunals have taken reasonable account of notes taken by someone during the assessment, so they have some evidentiary value if it comes to it.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 20, 2016)

existentialist said:


> The general advice seems to be that you can't record without permission. BUT, you can take notes, and who's to say you're not such a good note-taker that you were able to record the entire conversation verbatim, hem hem hem. And I believe tribunals have taken reasonable account of notes taken by someone during the assessment, so they have some evidentiary value if it comes to it.


Thanks, I'm a pretty decent note taker and have worked in healthcare and law before as an administrator. 

Would I be able to use the timer on my phone? I might want to know how long various parts of the examination take.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 20, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Thanks, I'm a pretty decent note taker and have worked in healthcare and law before as an administrator.
> 
> Would I be able to use the timer on my phone? I might want to know how long various parts of the examination take.


I think that if you were to be using your phone to covertly record, you'd be wisest not to even advertise its existence. They do seem to get very touchy about anything they feel threatens them in some way.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 20, 2016)

stuff_it - in addition to what's been said - noting the demeanour & attitude of the assessor may be helpful. 

If your person being assessed is asked to do anything, they have the right to stop at the point where pain starts, and to say so.  That's not when the pain becomes unbearable, but when it starts!

BTW it's safe to assume that your arrival, checking in, waiting, walking to the room, leaving the building, and getting as far as your transport home will be observed and taken into consideration:  Act accordingly.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2016)

stuff_it if possible try to ascertain what type of experience the assessor has - for example, are they a nurse, or a physio,  or a chiropodist etc? Make sure you note this information as it may prove useful if you have to go to appeal.

Be polite throughout but bear in mind however nice the assessor seems, they are not there to be helpful to the claimant for the most part. Also as Greebo has says, be aware that you and the claimant will likely be observed before the interview starts. Any small talk such as 'was your journey to the centre ok today?' may appear innocuous but can be used to elicit additional information e.g. when asked about travelling,  claimant stated they had no issues using public transport and travelling alone to interview.

Your friend could phone up and ask about recording but this may result in the interview being postponed until equipment can ve booked, and even then there are cases of claimants turning up for interview to be notified that the equipment is unavailable,  or hasn't been booked, or is broken etc. Take notes and if you want to use your phone to record (may be essential if claimant has memory issues for example)  then I recommend you have it recording in a pocket with it switched onto silent until after you are out of sight of the building.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 21, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> stuff_it if possible try to ascertain what type of experience the assessor has - for example, are they a nurse, or a physio,  or a chiropodist etc? Make sure you note this information as it may prove useful if you have to go to appeal.
> 
> Be polite throughout but bear in mind however nice the assessor seems, they are not there to be helpful to the claimant for the most part. Also as Greebo has says, be aware that you and the claimant will likely be observed before the interview starts. Any small talk such as 'was your journey to the centre ok today?' may appear innocuous but can be used to elicit additional information e.g. when asked about travelling,  claimant stated they had no issues using public transport and travelling alone to interview.
> 
> Your friend could phone up and ask about recording but this may result in the interview being postponed until equipment can ve booked, and even then there are cases of claimants turning up for interview to be notified that the equipment is unavailable,  or hasn't been booked, or is broken etc. Take notes and if you want to use your phone to record (may be essential if claimant has memory issues for example)  then I recommend you have it recording in a pocket with it switched onto silent until after you are out of sight of the building.


I had a job for a while writing the cover letters and sending urgent asylum appeals, and following them up with a phone call to make sure they got read before people got deported. 

I was good at my job (sadly there was no longer term funding in that field). I'm not sure ATOS will know what hit them.


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 21, 2016)

I've been looking over my friend's claim, and it looks like both:

a) We may need to add and/or change things where their condition has worsened.

b) I'm not sure if they've got all the evidence, scans, etc from their gp that they could.


Should we be rebooking the appointment, or just wing it? This is a standard 6 monthly medical, and they filled in their esa form several years ago.

They're unlikely to end up getting the boot entirely, but really need to be on the support group, since several of the things wrong with them are degenerative. 

I'm the first fully Internet savvy person they've had to help them with their claim, and I've  never been involved with an esa claim before so I don't want to cock it up.


----------



## Greebo (Sep 21, 2016)

stuff_it
Wing it - and add stuff if you have to ask for the decision to be reconsidered.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2016)

Greebo said:


> stuff_it
> Wing it - and add stuff if you have to ask for the decision to be reconsidered.


stuff_it ^^^^ this

Make sure in future your friend keeps copies of all medical evidence (note - it's unclear sometimes how much weight such evidence carries, there have been anecdotal reports that it is ignored by decision makers in the process or conversely that the decision maker simply accepts the evidence and everything in between.  my personal view is drown the fuckers in paperwork).


----------



## stuff_it (Sep 21, 2016)

I'm trying to get them to go through the points list for each condition, rather than just "I should get 15 on the first question so I'm probably  fine". 

They didn't know that saying the pain varies is a 0-point answer either. 

He's going for Pips soon after, and does really need it, so good to get everything in a line now.

Next up is taking the doctors to task on basically providing no pain relief (script doesn't count) when he can hardly walk.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> I'm trying to get them to go through the points list for each condition, rather than just "I should get 15 on the first question so I'm probably  fine".
> 
> They didn't know that saying the pain varies is a 0-point answer either.
> 
> ...


Ask the gp for an urgent referral to a pain management specialist,  he'll have better luck there.

Encourage him to think about how he is on his worst days, not an average day then get him to describe his worst days to you.

Also worth making a list of any meds he does take, listing the side effects for each one. Make a note any side effect that is common as two or meds with a side effect of e.g. fatigue can mean he is badly affected.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 21, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Any advice on accompanying someone to an ESA medical?
> 
> 
> Is it too late to get recording permission in time for Friday? Can I take notes, etc?
> ...


There are no problems accompanying some one to an ESA medical.

I got permission to record my PIP in 20 minutes because the tossers forgot about it. Phone the number for the appointments and tell the you want the medical recorded so they can get 'clearance' from the DWP and that you can record it yourself. Can You? or you may have to rearrange the appointment for a date when recording equipment is available.

If they want to do limb movements your friend can refuse to do them "as it will hurt too much". The 'medic' should then not do the tests.

Good luck.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 21, 2016)

And go through the report the assessor completes after the interview - there was a case recently where the assessor had basically falsified some of report by stating answers the claimant hadn't even been asked questions for.

They no longer carry out assessments.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 21, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> I'm trying to get them to go through the points list for each condition, rather than just "I should get 15 on the first question so I'm probably  fine".
> 
> They didn't know that saying the pain varies is a 0-point answer either.
> 
> ...



If they're worried about him abusing prescription meds in tablet form, they could prescribe him fentanyl patches.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 22, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> If they're worried about him abusing prescription meds in tablet form, they could prescribe him fentanyl patches.


That would require thinking, mind


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> That would require thinking, mind



True. GPs aren't exactly noted for their thinking skills!


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 22, 2016)

Not all are bad, granted, but there does seem to be a continued reluctance to prescribe anything opiate or opioid type meds.


----------



## Calamity1971 (Sep 23, 2016)

Had my assesment at Bannatynes today. Apparently I've been depressed and anxious since february this year? Been on meds for this since 1990 and awarded dla in 2002. Guessing i'm going to get the usual nil points. She announced herself as a paramedic and yet showed no signs of any compassion. The fact that I have to work 16 hours a week because esa assesment fucked me off will probably go against me as well. Still numb that I had to go to a health club and spa to have to open up about my problems.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 24, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> I've been looking over my friend's claim, and it looks like both:
> 
> a) We may need to add and/or change things where their condition has worsened.
> 
> ...


When the examiner ask 'can you do x?' and the claimant says 'yes' because they can do that thing a bit, its worth reminding them but not always, not for long and they suffer afterwards. I can't find the reference now but recall Govt guidance says something like you must be able to do something repeatedly and reliably.


----------



## Sapphireblue (Sep 25, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> When the examiner ask 'can you do x?' and the claimant says 'yes' because they can do that thing a bit, its worth reminding them but not always, not for long and they suffer afterwards. I can't find the reference now but recall Govt guidance says something like you must be able to do something repeatedly and reliably.



and it might even be better to phrase it 'not usually' or 'not unless' rather than 'yes, but' to make it harder for them to only take in the yes part.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Sep 29, 2016)

After my WCA on 7th Sept.   I've received a letter inviting me to a meeting with a work coach.	I still haven't received my decision letter from the DWP,  so I phoned to find out.	 They said letter is in the post.  I've been put in the WRAG group.
I'm happy with that.  I was in WRAG last time.  But only after appeal as I initially failed.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2016)

stuff_it has the assessment happened yet?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 1, 2016)

> Sickness benefits claimants will no longer have to go through reassessments to keep their payments if they suffer from chronic illnesses, the Department of Work and Pensions secretary is to announce.
> 
> 
> DWP scraps retesting for chronically ill sickness benefits claimants




So they will no longer check if limbs have grown back or that people who are terminal have suddenly been cured (amongst other fucking ridiculous and humiliating wastes and abuses of people's lives/time.)


----------



## Greebo (Oct 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So they will no longer check if limbs have grown back or that people who are terminal have suddenly been cured (amongst other fucking ridiculous and humiliating wastes and abuses of people's lives/time.)


A few disabilities, illnesses, and conditions will not be retested - many more (ME for example) will be, in case of that increasingly small chance of permanent & full remission.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2016)

Greebo said:


> A few disabilities, illnesses, and conditions will not be retested - many more (ME for example) will be, in case of that increasingly small chance of permanent & full remission.


The list of conditions has not yet been drawn up so hopefully it will more than a few. At least someone has finally come out and said 'what is the point of retesting people whose conditions aren't going to improve?' 

I'm cautiously optimistic about this but obviously it will depend on the conditions exempted.


----------



## existentialist (Oct 1, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> The list of conditions has not yet been drawn up so hopefully it will more than a few. At least someone has finally come out and said 'what is the point of retesting people whose conditions aren't going to improve?'
> 
> I'm cautiously optimistic about this but obviously it will depend on the conditions exempted.


I'm slightly more pessimistic: I picked up an undertone in the announcement which seemed to me to be saying "...but we'll carry on testing the fuck out of anyone where doing so isn't going to make us look like *idiotic* callous, uncaring bastards".


----------



## BCBlues (Oct 1, 2016)

Another DWP decision overturned at Appeal 

Migrated from Incapacity Benefit to ESA this year and scored a massive 0 points at a WCA which was backed up by their delaying tactic of Mandatory Reconsideration.

Attended Appeal Thursday and have been awarded 9 points for problems mobilising and 6 for problems standing and sitting and a recommendation not to review for at least 2 years from current date.

Appeal Panel was a very sympathetic judge who was astounded that the assessor was working from a form completed 2 years earlier and 6 months before a disastrous hip operation. The other member was a very thorough Doctor, unlike the Nurse who assessed me at WCA and who barely looked me in the eye.

I noticed they had gone through all my hospital reports, there was a lot of highlighted areas. Included in these were reports that i had sent copies in to the Tribunal received after Appeal Submission up to Appeal Date.This was important in my case as the idiot at WCA had stated "had hip operation,referred to GP no further interventions" .
Don't forget to do this folks if you reach this stage and you think the reports will be favourable in your appeal. You have up to seven days before Appeal Date to supply such information. I also took along some more info that I had received from Pain Management only four days before my Appeal Date.

This thread was monumental in keeping me motivated, informed and instilling belief, this and the Benefits and Work Site. I want to thank you all and wish you all the best in your own battles against this ridiculous system.
You certainly are not fighting the battle alone when there are wonderful people around like the ones who contribute in here , I hope to be of some use in here after gaining a few more insights into the DWP and their nasty tactics.

Once again, thank you all.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 1, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Another DWP decision overturned at Appeal
> 
> Migrated from Incapacity Benefit to ESA this year and scored a massive 0 points at a WCA which was backed up by their delaying tactic of Mandatory Reconsideration.
> 
> Attended Appeal Thursday and have been awarded 9 points for problems mobilising and 6 for problems standing and sitting and a recommendation not to review for at least 2 years from current date. <snip>


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 1, 2016)

Really well done BCBlues great news


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 1, 2016)

Rutita1 said:


> So they will no longer check if limbs have grown back or that people who are terminal have suddenly been cured (amongst other fucking ridiculous and humiliating wastes and abuses of people's lives/time.)


was listening to that on the news this morning - sounds like a victory for common sense. 

And lovely to hear your good news BCBlues.


----------



## Libertad (Oct 2, 2016)

Great news BCBlues


----------



## BCBlues (Oct 2, 2016)

Thanks for the above posts people.
I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my shoulders this weekend


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 2, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Thanks for the above posts people.
> I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my shoulders this weekend


It has! So happy for you


----------



## existentialist (Oct 2, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Thanks for the above posts people.
> I feel like a massive weight has been lifted off my shoulders this weekend


It should never have been there in the first place 

But I'm delighted it's worked out this way...


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2016)

Have just noticed its been just over 3 years since a certain persons last atos assessment leading to ESA in the non work group. Is it just luck? are there guidelines on how often they do this?  A lot of you seemed to have been re assessed more often.


----------



## Greebo (Oct 3, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> <snip> Is it just luck? are there guidelines on how often they do this?  A lot of you seemed to have been re assessed more often.


No idea, just enjoy being left in peace for now.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 3, 2016)

Greebo said:


> No idea, just enjoy being left in peace for now.


We are. But saving like mad for all future eventualities.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (Oct 7, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> Have just noticed its been just over 3 years since a certain persons last atos assessment leading to ESA in the non work group. Is it just luck? are there guidelines on how often they do this?  A lot of you seemed to have been re assessed more often.


Well if you call the complete meltdown and back log of IB to ESA conversions, on top of re-assessments and on top of that new claims, that basically stopped most people already on ESA re-assessments from 2012 onwards luck then yes. Although some unlucky people on ESA were chosen at random because the DWP had to make sure things were still working.

Who would have thought that paying by the assessment would lead to a profit driven out source company to....... well....... whatever caused a rate of 25-50% more assessments than planned for etc?

To add more detail when you are assessed you are given a do not reassess for 3-6-9-12..... up to 36 months (this is usually found on the ESA85 report). If you win at an appeal the tribunal will usually add a recommendation of the period they think re-assessment should occur after...... but this is not binding on the DWP...... although the DWP have generally respected this.

I'm not sure how this works for mandys (mandatroy reconsideration) ? I also know that as ATOS ran a separate system which triggered the automated letters to call you for re-assessment than the DWP who were making or receiving decisions from the Tribunal Service........ the former might not get up dated for reasons unknown so would chuck out automated re-assessment letters based on the original schedule.

Now the re-assessment date was extremely important in the WRAG (Work Related Activity Group) as 12 months or under and basically you were straight on the Work Program.

That is no more and we're about to get hit with the Health and Work Program which will probably extend that to 15 months and although we were told it would never happen does include mandatory treatment programs for claimants!

Oh re-assessment with now Maximus for those left alone is back in full swing! 

As per usual it's those with mental health issues 1st and the DWP have basically removed every last reference and safe guard!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2016)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Oh re-assessment with now Maximus for those left alone is back in full swing!
> 
> As per usual it's those with mental health issues 1st and the DWP have basically removed every last reference and safe guard!


That sounds worrying. What does 'removed every last reference and safeguard mean'?


----------



## Ergo Proxy (Oct 8, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> That sounds worrying. What does 'removed every last reference and safeguard mean'?



Rightsnet discussion forum - DWP scrap expert guidance on risk to vulnerable claimants with a mental function problem - Rightsnet


----------



## Greebo (Oct 8, 2016)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Rightsnet discussion forum - DWP scrap expert guidance on risk to vulnerable claimants with a mental function problem - Rightsnet


----------



## friendofdorothy (Oct 8, 2016)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Rightsnet discussion forum - DWP scrap expert guidance on risk to vulnerable claimants with a mental function problem - Rightsnet


liked for you posting it - not for what it says of course


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 21, 2016)

My sister has just had the results of her PIP migration. Despite having fibromyalgia and getting DLA, both parts higher rate, she has been awarded 0 points for PIP. 

Is this becoming the standard to award 0 points initially? 

Perhaps if the DWP want to save money they could cancel all the ATOS / capita contracts and sack all their assessors and just get a computer to award 0 points to everyone.


----------



## Celyn (Oct 21, 2016)

Perhaps that's exactly what they have done. Bastards.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 21, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> My sister has just had the results of her PIP migration. Despite having fibromyalgia and getting DLA, both parts higher rate, she has been awarded 0 points for PIP.
> 
> Is this becoming the standard to award 0 points initially?
> 
> Perhaps if the DWP want to save money they could cancel all the ATOS / capita contracts and sack all their assessors and just get a computer to award 0 points to everyone.


Bastards. Is she going to appeal?


----------



## BCBlues (Oct 21, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> My sister has just had the results of her PIP migration. Despite having fibromyalgia and getting DLA, both parts higher rate, she has been awarded 0 points for PIP.
> 
> Is this becoming the standard to award 0 points initially?
> 
> Perhaps if the DWP want to save money they could cancel all the ATOS / capita contracts and sack all their assessors and just get a computer to award 0 points to everyone.



The DWP are nothing but piss taking bullies. 
I truly hope your Sister has got enough support around her to challenge this ridiculous decision.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 22, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Bastards. Is she going to appeal?


Of course.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 22, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Of course.


Good. Drown them in paperwork.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 23, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Good. Drown them in paperwork.


My sister sent enough paperwork in with her PIP claim. 

Trying to drown them in paperwork won't work. They will only ignore it as usual. Better to beat them into submission with it.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 28, 2016)

Just got the results of my PIP reconsideration. Still got 0 points for either care or mobility. 

Apparently I completed the mental state exam with out any problems. Is this the remember 3 words and repeat them later? As I failed to manage this. 

Apparently as I had a normal schooling with no special needs requirements there can't be anything wrong with my memory and there's no medical evidence to back it up despite sending in a further copy of the DWP's work psychologist report clearly stating there is. Presumably from this anyone who's had a stroke, brain tumor or being shot in the head can't have memory problems as they had a normal schooling. 

"I cannot consider any help you need not covered by the activities for daily living living and mobility". Presumably this means they can't take into account examples of being unable to make a cup of tea consistently as evidence that something more complex like cooking a meal from scratch would be impossible. 

"PIP is a different benefit and has different criteria to DLA, Although you may have been entitled to DLA, unfortunately, based on all the evidence... you do not meet the criteria for PIP". So the fact I was previously awarded higher rate mobility for DLA (unable to walk more than 50M) means suddenly I can walk more than 200M for PIP? I know the higher rate for PIP is only 20M but there must be something in between. 

Can we have the bastards charged with conspiracy to murder?


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## StoneRoad (Oct 28, 2016)

Onwards with the appeals ... I'm sure help will be available from people on here, and elsewhere !

I can only assume that these are politically motivated and dogmatic attempts to "save" money by putting people off from claiming what should be their full entitlement, perhaps by making things seem far too difficult and by "moving the goalposts" ...


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## equationgirl (Oct 29, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Just got the results of my PIP reconsideration. Still got 0 points for either care or mobility.
> 
> Apparently I completed the mental state exam with out any problems. Is this the remember 3 words and repeat them later? As I failed to manage this.
> 
> ...


That is so wrong it beggars belief, and the conclusions defy logic. Is it tribunal next? They are wankers,  utter wankers.

Behold, again, the healing powers of the DWP ffs.


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## Libertad (Oct 29, 2016)

The DWP is probably the most pernicious vector of disease, misery and death in these septic isles.


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## WouldBe (Oct 29, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> That is so wrong it beggars belief, and the conclusions defy logic. Is it tribunal next? They are wankers,  utter wankers.
> 
> Behold, again, the healing powers of the DWP ffs.


Definitely a tribunal next. Need to sort out a solicitor to represent me, it worked great last time. Might cost a few hundred quid but it's worth it as I recon the DWP owe me over £3000 so far. 

Then I'm seriously considering doing the twats for fraud at least.


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## BCBlues (Oct 29, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Definitely a tribunal next. Need to sort out a solicitor to represent me, it worked great last time. Might cost a few hundred quid but it's worth it as I recon the DWP owe me over £3000 so far.
> 
> Then I'm seriously considering doing the twats for fraud at least.



Good on you, they are obviously not relenting, why should we?

I'm currently working on a letter to the Nursing Medical Council regarding the "nurse" who included over 20 lies and inaccuracies in his WCA report, asking that he be retrained or even struck off as not fit for practice.


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## existentialist (Oct 29, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Good on you, they are obviously not relenting, why should we?
> 
> I'm currently working on a letter to the Nursing Medical Council regarding the "nurse" who included over 20 lies and inaccuracies in his WCA report, asking that he be retrained or even struck off as not fit for practice.


I'd like to think that these professional bodies are groaning under the weight of complaints against members, solely as a result of their WCA work.


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## existentialist (Oct 29, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Definitely a tribunal next. Need to sort out a solicitor to represent me, it worked great last time. Might cost a few hundred quid but it's worth it as I recon the DWP owe me over £3000 so far.
> 
> Then I'm seriously considering doing the twats for fraud at least.


I wonder what the possibilities are for landing them with your legal bill on top, when you prevail?


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## Calamity1971 (Oct 29, 2016)

As predicted I scored 0 points. I also managed to arrive and leave on my own? I told her a friend had driven me and when she asked about expenses I told her he wasn't bothered about fuel expenses and I just needed to get straight out. It states I had a normal gait when leaving the building so she would have seen me leaving with my friend. Does anyone have any tips on doing a mandatory reconsideration as i have only done one when I got sanctioned last year. Can't even find the motivation to pick up a pen at the moment.


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## Celyn (Oct 29, 2016)

I know what you mean about motivation.	   They're very scary. You can, it seems, ask for a mandatory reconsideration by phone or in writing. You might be different, but I found them a bit horrible on the phone, so hurried to get off phone and wrote instead. Along the lines of "the conversation as reported here is not at all the way I remember it", and I request a mandatory reconsideration please.

It's hard to get over the brain freeze that happens when trying to communicate with then, so mine was not very well done. It was rejected and I will have to make an appeal.

Perhaps if we both work up courage to put pen to paper we can each make our pleading letters to the DWP.  Not right now, though.


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## Calamity1971 (Oct 29, 2016)

Celyn I have about two and a half weeks to get just the mandatory reconsideration in, it took me two days just to open the brown envelope. It's an effort to sign in to this site and everyone is helpful,  so trying to reply to dwp is very daunting. They are counting on people like us just to give up because the stress of an appeal is too much. I gave up on an appeal for esa once and took a job that made my anxiety worse. I'm going to do it this time, even if I fail I will feel better that I took on the bastards.


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## Celyn (Oct 30, 2016)

Well, I'm playing at "ignore it for now", but I know I must do clever stuff soon. So we'll have to encourage each other. Or jump off a bridge. I do agree very much about the terror and stress of the brown envelopes.


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## WouldBe (Oct 30, 2016)

Celyn said:


> Well, I'm playing at "ignore it for now", but I know I must do clever stuff soon. So we'll have to encourage each other.


I know it's hard but it's better to bite the bullet and get it done ASAP as you only have a month to get it in, same with the tribunal appeal, and I don't think they let you have an extension. 



> I do agree very much about the terror and stress of the brown envelopes.


I had a brown envelope arrive 2 weeks ago and dreaded opening it. When I finally did it was from PC world wanting to know if I wanted to buy extended cover for my computer monitor.


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## equationgirl (Oct 30, 2016)

BCBlues said:


> Good on you, they are obviously not relenting, why should we?
> 
> I'm currently working on a letter to the Nursing Medical Council regarding the "nurse" who included over 20 lies and inaccuracies in his WCA report, asking that he be retrained or even struck off as not fit for practice.


I'd ask that he be investigated with a view to misconduct - if you give them the lesser option of a retraining recommendation then that's an easy way out. Check what Pauline cafferkey (I think that's her name, nurse who caught ebola) got accused of, she had to go before a panel for something like fraud and misrepresentation.


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## equationgirl (Oct 30, 2016)

Also, I'm happy to help write letters if people want. Pm me if so.

Did anyone see the guardian article about the former dwp worker who turned their experiences into a play? They were made redundant and got threatened with sanctions if they were late to appointments. Sadly they were very much on the side of the claimants but were bullied into sanctions by managers.


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## Jackobi (Oct 30, 2016)

Calamity1971 said:


> Does anyone have any tips on doing a mandatory reconsideration as i have only done one when I got sanctioned last year. Can't even find the motivation to pick up a pen at the moment.



This is a template for a Mandatory Reconsideration notification to get you started, don't forget that you should make sure the DWP receive the MR letter within one month from the date of the decision letter.

https://www.leicester.gov.uk/media/178163/mandatory-reconsideration-request.pdf


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 30, 2016)

I did "belt and braces" with my MR request. I sent it by post (signed for), and phoned them up as well, telling them I wanted an MR, and that I'd sent in a written request.


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## Celyn (Oct 30, 2016)

I failed to do it "signed for" but that's good advice for Calamity1971 if she(he?) can get out to a post office. Actually, it was an annoying phone conversation, involving me being told "that's a fail" because the DWP person said I had got my own phone number wrong, but I suppose the whole belt and braces approach is best if you can handle talking to them.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 31, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Did anyone see the guardian article about the former dwp worker who turned their experiences into a play? They were made redundant and got threatened with sanctions if they were late to appointments. Sadly they were very much on the side of the claimants but were bullied into sanctions by managers.


Think I heard her interviewed on the radio. Good to hear that perspective from the (former) inside.

Good luck to all those dealing with MR or appeals. Give them what for, they're in the wrong, you're in the right.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 1, 2016)

How much money is the govt actually saving by relentlessly pursuing sick people like this? when they take into account paying Atos or who ever and the cost of all the appeals surely theres not much of a saving to the public purse?

Read today that the results tax of pursuing over 6000 the richest people for not paying tax has only resulted in wait for it -1- yes one success. Do we hear daily of rich geting away with cheating the revenue stories, are there whole tv series about rich-life-avoiding-tax and tax-evasion-avenue? Grrrr it makes me so angry.

Rant over. 

Best wishes to all on this thread going through this nasty ATOS shit. Don't let the bastards get you down.


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## WouldBe (Nov 25, 2016)

Got my appeal letter in with a day to spare after seeing a solicitor. Let's see how this goes.


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## equationgirl (Nov 27, 2016)

Fingers crossed WouldBe x


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## Celyn (Dec 6, 2016)

Now I have been told the Mandatory Reconsideration was refused, so I did send an appeal. (even properly recorded delivery this time, YAY!)

Question is:

I gather that while appealing, one can, instead of JSA, claim ESA at the Assessment rate. Clearly that makes no difference in terms of money, but I think there's a reason why this is a Good Thing. Is it that it's less hassle from the Jobcentre while waiting for the final appeal result?

Last time I saw a Job Coach, I said my Mandatory Reconsideration had been refused and I would appeal, and I understood that the thing to do was to claim ESA at the assessment rate in the meantime. She said, "no, that doesn't happen any more. You can't do that." I was fairly sure one *can*, so I asked whether that had changed recently, and she said that had been the case "for a long time now".  

I do suspect she might be wrong about this and my next appointment with Jobcentre person is on Thursday, and I hope to be able to tell her "ha, now that whatsit office has received my appeal letter, I would like to claim ESA at the assessment rate pending appeal."

Does anyone  know the facts of this, please?


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 6, 2016)

Ok I read it wrong.  You have already had the MR.	Yes you can now claim assessment rate.


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## Celyn (Dec 6, 2016)

Yep. I did a Mandatory Reconsideration, and the result of that was "No, Ms Bloggs, tough luck, decision stands, but you can take it to tribunal if you really want to". Then at appointment in Jobcentre, I said I would like to claim ESA at Assessment rate while awaiting result of appeal, and she said that wasn't possible.

She was wrong, I think - as you say, once appeal has been accepted, I can then claim ESA at assessment rate.  Well she was right in that it had been *sent* then, but I had no notification that it had been received, but wrong in saying that such a thing simply did not happen.

Thank you, xsunnysuex!     And I was also in a phone queue with Citz Advice, which just got answered, and a very nice man says once the appeal has been received/accepted, I should inform the Jobcentre I want to claim ESA at assessment rate, and he says there is no form I need to fill in, but simply to inform Jobcentre.  Happy news, and I hope they will agree that's right, 'cos I don't want extra fuss with them.


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## Celyn (Dec 6, 2016)

Haha, xsunnysuex, just as I was posting a reply, you changed yours!  Thank you SO much for replying and being so helpful. I wonder if Job Coach was just feeling overworked that day, or was perchance deliberately being a nuisance.  Just one of the mysteries of life, I suppose, but I do tend to feel strongly that if official person is not completely sure of their facts, they ought not to bluff, but to say they are not certain but will check.

I'm probably going to have to learn not to be meek with Jobcentre, but to keep my cynical head on at all times.


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 6, 2016)

I should learn to read things properly before I reply to posts lol.  I would send in writing though that you want to claim assessment rate.  And send it recorded .
Or better still take it to the job centre and get them to photo copy it.  And stamp it.
I don't trust the dwp one bit.


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## Celyn (Dec 6, 2016)

Hmm, you're probably right. It seems that simply "telling" them is meant to be enough, but you're probably right about putting it in writing, as that last Jobcentre person I saw was kind of not-good at listening to what I said and instead replying to things I hadn't said.    And it's hard to guess whether that is accidental or deliberate sneakiness.

Aargh! Oh well, I just tell myself I will feel very good once my Thursday appointment with them is over and I needn't see them for presumably, another 2 weeks.


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## Celyn (Dec 6, 2016)

xsunnysuex said:


> ...
> I don't trust the dwp one bit.



Or half a bit, or a microbit, nanobit or picobit,


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## equationgirl (Dec 10, 2016)

Totally agree with this Celyn do it by letter, get them to stamp it received (or whatever they do) then photocopy it. That way your copy will show that your letter was received by the jobcentre. 

Sorry the mandatory reconsideration was refused


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## Jackobi (Dec 10, 2016)

Celyn said:


> She was wrong, I think - as you say, once appeal has been accepted, I can then claim ESA at assessment rate.



DWP will not usually pay the assessment rate until it has confirmation from the Courts and Tribunals Service that an appeal has been lodged. The CTS will send you a letter stating that your appeal has been received, then it will notify JCP.

It is usually quicker to take the letter to JCP yourself rather than wait for the CTS to send it to them. As soon as you have received the letter, take it to JCP and your ESA should then be paid at the assessment rate.


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## WouldBe (Dec 11, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry the mandatory reconsideration was refused


Seems to be standard practice these days.  Sister recently put in a mandatory reconsideration for PIP through a solicitor and still got 0 points.


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## Jackobi (Dec 11, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Seems to be standard practice these days.



It seems to be an intentional delaying tactic designed to fuck people over, I haven't heard of one successful mandatory reconsideration.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2016)

Jackobi said:


> It seems to be an intentional delaying tactic designed to fuck people over, I haven't heard of one successful mandatory reconsideration.



Me neither.
Ridiculously, and revealing of how biased the "Mandatory Reconsideration" process can be, the tribunal received exactly the same evidence from me as did the decision-maker who dealt with my MR, and yet the tribunal not only found *for* me, they also illustrated how I qualified for significantly *more* points than the DWP awarded me.


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## equationgirl (Dec 11, 2016)

I think you're right sadly 


Jackobi said:


> It seems to be an intentional delaying tactic designed to fuck people over, I haven't heard of one successful mandatory reconsideration.


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## existentialist (Dec 12, 2016)

Jackobi said:


> It seems to be an intentional delaying tactic designed to fuck people over, I haven't heard of one successful mandatory reconsideration.





equationgirl said:


> I think you're right sadly



Has anyone done an FOI request to DWP on this? How many mandatory reconsiderations go against the initial decision?

ETA: Ah. Answered my own question. First figures on ESA mandatory reconsideration ‘show it is just a delaying tactic’


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## StoneRoad (Dec 12, 2016)

MR is just another hoop the DWP have devised, trying to get claimants to "give up" so 'the figures' look better and they can pretend to be saving money on the welfare budget.

And all the more reason for us (urban) to help people with their claims as much as we can.

As hard as it is, keep on keeping on and "Nil Carborundum illigetitimus" (sorry for the crap spelling) ...


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## existentialist (Dec 12, 2016)

StoneRoad said:


> MR is just another hoop the DWP have devised, trying to get claimants to "give up" so 'the figures' look better and they can pretend to be saving money on the welfare budget.


Yep. What's so frustrating is that it seems so difficult for people to recognise that. On a thread like this, we're mostly preaching to the choir - but for others to be bothered, they have to be interested enough to see it as a problem, too.

And that's difficult, because the last couple or three governments have pulled a blinder in harnessing the resentment and perhaps even envy of the general population towards people on benefits - the narrative that they're somehow just freeloading off the rest of us is pervasive, and seemingly resistant to any kind of attempt to introduce any facts or reality into it.


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## StoneRoad (Dec 12, 2016)

I agree with that ! and spend a certain amount of time trying to convert more members to our choir.
But, as you say, the gov't has been very carefully exploiting a particular aspect of the "them and us" narrative. In my opinion, the thatcherite greed one coupled with "there is no such thing as society" theme.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 12, 2016)

StoneRoad said:


> I agree with that ! and spend a certain amount of time trying to convert more members to our choir.
> But, as you say, the gov't has been very carefully exploiting a particular aspect of the "them and us" narrative. In my opinion, the thatcherite greed one coupled with "there is no such thing as society" theme.



The "no such thing as society" flourishes in an environment where social mobility is fluid - people tend to think "if I can pull myself up by my bootstraps, so can everyone else". Create a society where the have-nots consistently become poorer and more alienated, where social mobility barely happens, and social solidarities become more and more important, and the potential for a "flowering" of solidaristic communities becomes far more likely.


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## Libertad (Dec 12, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> social solidarities become more and more important, and the potential for a "flowering" of solidaristic communities becomes far more likely.



Yes to that brother.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 12, 2016)

existentialist said:


> Yep. What's so frustrating is that it seems so difficult for people to recognise that. On a thread like this, we're mostly preaching to the choir - but for others to be bothered, they have to be interested enough to see it as a problem, too.


Hopefully the I, Daniel Blake film will spread the message a bit further - glad to see it won some awards recently.


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## stuff_it (Dec 12, 2016)

Still not heard anything back about my mate's review medical. Surely we should have received a letter or something by now? It's been over 6 weeks.


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## WouldBe (Dec 13, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Still not heard anything back about my mate's review medical. Surely we should have received a letter or something by now? It's been over 6 weeks.


It will arrive next week, just in time to ruin christmas.


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## Celyn (Dec 13, 2016)

ViolentPanda said:


> The "no such thing as society" flourishes in an environment where social mobility is fluid - people tend to think "if I can pull myself up by my bootstraps, so can everyone else". *Create a society where the have-nots consistently become poorer and more alienated, where social mobility barely happens, and social solidarities become more and more important, and the potential for a "flowering" of solidaristic communities becomes far more likely*.



Well, I like your optimism.


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## equationgirl (Dec 13, 2016)

stuff_it said:


> Still not heard anything back about my mate's review medical. Surely we should have received a letter or something by now? It's been over 6 weeks.


You could ring them just to see if there's any progress? Some people on this thread have reported significantly longer.


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## Ergo Proxy (Dec 22, 2016)

I need a rant and a bit of advice please.

Esa50 filled in and returned in end of April, face to face WCA End of July, decision notice arrived dated 24th of August. Mandatory Reconsideration sent 2nd Sept logged/scanned by DWP 6th sept just had my MR decision arrive today dated 17th Dec. I sent no new information nor made any suggestion that I would be.

The original decision maker awarded me zero points; although wrote in the decision letter I award 6 points on 2 descriptors - 13 and 14 I think as you have to figure it out from the lucid description of the activity not named.

My MR decision maker has supported the original award of 12 points 6 for each descriptor originally stated and upheld the original decision.

I'm confused by which decision the zero point or 12 points as this letter is an absolute shambles with regards to clarity  It's very detailed in disputing my points but......... 

I'm arguing for the following

13 (c) - 6 points

15 (b) - 9 points

16 (a) - 15 points

Which is what my 1st Welf argued although my 2nd Welf argued

13/14/15/16 all for 8 points.

I'm thinking of chucking in 14 again for good measure but am pushing for the Support Group this time! 

I've been awarded 1st Tribunal 6 for 13 and 9 for 16, 2nd tribunal 9 points for both 14 & 15. I've never been to a Tribunal as a Clerk of the Court normally calls me on the day of the Tribunal saying it's been decided on pre-hearing vetting so........

To complicate matters I've not claimed Universal Credit as I have a fit note from my GP so have been living off my DLA and savings. Plus I have managed to convince the "local living team" that I need help so have an appointment with an NHS psychiatrist next week. 

I know I can get ESA back in payment at assessment rate plus SDP (not payable under UC) once my appeal is lodged. 

My big problem is that until that appointment my only brush with mental health and reports was a private psychiatrist who tired to push BPD and me back into the NHS in 2014 who'd already refused to treat me. I then got tested by the local CMHT who asked me to tell them a story, count backwards in 12s from 120, then produced a report 2 months later which made the WCA look like something from master mind .  

I don't know!


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 22, 2016)

Hi Ergo Proxy That's all very technical for me, but I hope someone here has some useful advice for you.  

I vaguely recall the point scoring system though not all the details. Do you have a link to what all the numbers mean, are they the question numbers?

Glad you have an appt next week. Do you / or could you get any support from Mind or any other groups who might be able to help?


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## chainsawjob (Dec 23, 2016)

What a shambles with the letter, and what a agonisingly long process.  Sorry, I'm not up on all the technicalities either, how many points do you need to qualify for the Support Group?  I hope you get it.  Have you tried Benefits and Work Home they're very good.  I have membership if you need access to any of the membership-only guides (on how to fill in ESA/PIP forms), give me a shout.

Doesn't sound good your previous brush with the CMHT.  But hopefully you'll get someone more useful this time. Probably you already will, but make sure you tell them everything relevant, taking a list of everything you want to mention can be helpful.  I've had (what I thought were) poor supporting letters from them, but did manage to get Support Group (on the exemption clauses that being found fit for work/work related activity would present a substantial risk to my mental health, not sure if these still exist, this was a couple of years ago).


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## Jackobi (Dec 23, 2016)

Ergo Proxy said:


> I don't know!



I know that you've already filled in the ESA50 and are appealing but Citizens Advice have a good guide to filling in the ESA50 which might help:

Help filling in your ESA50 form - Citizens Advice

It might be worth giving them a call as well to see if an adviser can help you if you are struggling with your appeal:

Search for your local Citizens Advice - Citizens Advice


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## Jackobi (Dec 23, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> Sorry, I'm not up on all the technicalities either, how many points do you need to qualify for the Support Group?



"Qualifying for the support group of employment and support allowance (ESA)is not about scoring points.  Instead, if the decision maker accepts that any of the following descriptors apply to you, then you will be placed in the support group."

Support group descriptors


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## chainsawjob (Dec 23, 2016)

Thanks Jackobi, I'd forgotten that.


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## WouldBe (Dec 23, 2016)

Just received the paperwork from the DWP for my PIP tribunal, just in time for christmas. 

Needless to say I won't be opening it until *after* christmas.


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## Libertad (Dec 23, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Just received the paperwork from the DWP for my PIP tribunal, just in time for christmas.
> 
> Needless to say I won't be opening it until *after* christmas.



 Happy christmas WouldBe.


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## Ergo Proxy (Dec 23, 2016)

Thanks for the link Jackobi  - I'm going to look through everything tomorrow and work out an action plan. As long as I get a new report from Friday which hopefully backs up my last Psychiatrist report from late 2013 I should be good to go evidence wise. Whilst not at the time of the decision the new report if it links to/ties in with/supports an earlier report the Tribunal panel may consider it if they so wish as being relevant. Worth a shot imho!

Just got to counter how telling the GP who did my WCA that having 1/2 a grapefruit for breakfast and a banana the day before lets a Decision Maker deduce that I'm a god dam sexual Tyrannosaur in the kitchen that appears on Iron Chef and the Great British bake off every night!


friendofdorothy no the only help and support I get has been either paying for it myself out of benefits or non. I don't have a very high opinion of local mental health teams! Although I've researched the Psychiatrist I see next week and I'm actually quite optimistic - he's a bally foreigner with extensive credentials and experience all over the world. All good in my books! Plus thanks to somebody posting a copy of the DSM V5 (in a completely random Brixton forum thread) I actually figured out that what's happening to me exists and that unlike IAPTs' narrow beliefs it's accepted that it exists too!

which is nice (well not nice) but I can pretty much (thanks to Reddit mental health topics on top of the DSM v5) explain now exactly what's happening. Only taken 10 years but hey you just can't get the staff nower days 


Good luck with the PIP appeal WouldBe.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 23, 2016)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Thanks for the link Jackobi  - I'm going to look through everything tomorrow and work out an action plan. As long as I get a new report from Friday which hopefully backs up my last Psychiatrist report from late 2013 I should be good to go evidence wise. Whilst not at the time of the decision the new report if it links to/ties in with/supports an earlier report the Tribunal panel may consider it if they so wish as being relevant. Worth a shot imho!
> 
> Just got to counter how telling the GP who did my WCA that having 1/2 a grapefruit for breakfast and a banana the day before lets a Decision Maker deduce that I'm a god dam sexual Tyrannosaur in the kitchen that appears on Iron Chef and the Great British bake off every night!
> 
> ...


Good luck


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 23, 2016)

Jackobi said:


> "Qualifying for the support group of employment and support allowance (ESA)is not about scoring points.  Instead, if the decision maker accepts that any of the following descriptors apply to you, then you will be placed in the support group."
> 
> Support group descriptors


Thank you for the links - they look very handy. I had lost track of where to find them.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 23, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Just received the paperwork from the DWP for my PIP tribunal, just in time for christmas.   Needless to say I won't be opening it until *after* christmas.


 sorry WouldBe they are such fucking grinches.


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## WouldBe (Dec 24, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry WouldBe they are such fucking grinches.


They *always* seem to send stuff out so it arrives just before a weekend or a bank holiday so you have to stew for several days as there nothing you can do about it until they get back to work.


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## extra dry (Dec 27, 2016)

Private firms rake in half a BILLION pounds for cruel disability benefit tests

Just sickening.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 30, 2016)

extra dry said:


> Private firms rake in half a BILLION pounds for cruel disability benefit tests
> 
> Just sickening.


obviously our lovely govt would prefer to pay money as profits to private companies than to ill people, and pay for by cutting benefits to those in need. Does any one know if the govts total costs of this cruel process has actually saved the the taxpayer anything at all?


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## equationgirl (Dec 30, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> obviously our lovely govt would prefer to pay money as profits to private companies than to ill people, and pay for by cutting benefits to those in need. Does any one know if the govts total costs of this cruel process has actually saved the the taxpayer anything at all?


I suspect any 'savings' are dwarfed by the amounts paid out in pensions. 

If there are any, of course, I bet there aren't.


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## chainsawjob (Dec 31, 2016)

friendofdorothy said:


> obviously our lovely govt would prefer to pay money as profits to private companies than to ill people, and pay for by cutting benefits to those in need. Does any one know if the govts total costs of this cruel process has actually saved the the taxpayer anything at all?



AAV: How Iain Duncan Smith's Reign of Terror costs far more to administer than it will ever save



> The administration fees alone are set to total over £1.6 billion by March 2018, yet the government's own figures indicate that their fit-to-work regime is unlikely to even save £1 billion in reduced disability benefits payouts by May 2020.





> The fact that the Tories demeaning and discriminatory regime for sick and disabled people costs far more in corporate administration fees than they will ever save in reduced benefits payments proves what most sensible people knew all along: Iain Duncan Smith's so-called welfare reforms have nothing to do with the stated objectives of _"helping people"_ and _"saving money"_, and everything to do with diverting as much of the taxpayer funded welfare budget to corporate interests as possible.



Also AAV: The cost of Tory malice


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## WouldBe (Dec 31, 2016)

Got round to opening the pack of information from the DWP for my PIP tribunal. Makes interesting reading. Apparently I change sex at one point in the ATOS assessment. 

Nurse notes I walked to assessment room by leaning on the wall but then concludes there is nothing wrong with my walking ability. 

DWP decided to throw out the transcript of recording as they didn't have a copy of the tape to verify the transcript and ATOS have no record of me requesting the assessment be recorded, even though they have included the PIP form which clearly states it will be recorded, a covering letter saying it will be recorded and the assessment was delayed for ~30 mins while ATOS got the OK from the DWP to record it. How many copies of the recording do they fucking want. 

So I'll now have to go through the 189 pages of shit with a fine tooth comb to counter all their bullshit. 

Can I delay my tribunal to 2018?


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Got round to opening the pack of information from the DWP for my PIP tribunal. Makes interesting reading. Apparently I change sex at one point in the ATOS assessment.
> 
> Nurse notes I walked to assessment room by leaning on the wall but then concludes there is nothing wrong with my walking ability.
> 
> ...


Well done for facing it. Sounds like shit - I wish you strength to deal with their fuckwittery. Good luck.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 31, 2016)

chainsawjob said:


> AAV: How Iain Duncan Smith's Reign of Terror costs far more to administer than it will ever save
> 
> 
> 
> ...


thought so.


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## equationgirl (Dec 31, 2016)

WouldBe said:


> Got round to opening the pack of information from the DWP for my PIP tribunal. Makes interesting reading. Apparently I change sex at one point in the ATOS assessment.
> 
> Nurse notes I walked to assessment room by leaning on the wall but then concludes there is nothing wrong with my walking ability.
> 
> ...


Dear God, it would be funny if people's lives weren't directly affected. And as for the changing sex half way through,  I have no words.

You raise an interesting question though - what happens to the dwp copy of recordings once made? Obviously the claimant copy is kept by the claimant. 

I might try to find out...also paging ViolentPanda to see if he knows the answer to this conundrum.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 31, 2016)

equationgirl said:


> Dear God, it would be funny if people's lives weren't directly affected. And as for the changing sex half way through,  I have no words.
> 
> You raise an interesting question though - what happens to the dwp copy of recordings once made? Obviously the claimant copy is kept by the claimant.
> 
> I might try to find out...also paging ViolentPanda to see if he knows the answer to this conundrum.



The recording is *supposed to be filed*, both digitally and in the original hard copy. They appear to "lose" them before digitally filing them a lot of the time, as they "lost" mine. They also will only accept transcripts of selected portions, not complete transcripts.

WouldBe , the 180+ pages includes all the evidence you've previously sent, so what you need to focus on is the material relating to the original decision and the MR. That's where I totally fucked over the decision-maker, showing that even where I'd corrected false information in the original assessment when I submitted for the MR, they'd paid no attention, and therefore the MR was conducted on the basis of false and incomplete information.


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## equationgirl (Jan 1, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> The recording is *supposed to be filed*, both digitally and in the original hard copy. They appear to "lose" them before digitally filing them a lot of the time, as they "lost" mine. They also will only accept transcripts of selected portions, not complete transcripts.
> 
> WouldBe , the 180+ pages includes all the evidence you've previously sent, so what you need to focus on is the material relating to the original decision and the MR. That's where I totally fucked over the decision-maker, showing that even where I'd corrected false information in the original assessment when I submitted for the MR, they'd paid no attention, and therefore the MR was conducted on the basis of false and incomplete information.


I know this is is news to no-one on this thread but they really are a bunch of cockwombling fuckmuppets for not storing the recordings properly in any format.


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## existentialist (Jan 1, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I know this is is news to no-one on this thread but they really are a bunch of cockwombling fuckmuppets for not storing the recordings properly in any format.


That's the problem with organisations that are allowed to get away with not doing what they say they are doing. Endlessly. There is no accountability, and there bloody well should be.


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## WouldBe (Jan 1, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Dear God, it would be funny if people's lives weren't directly affected. And as for the changing sex half way through,  I have no words.
> 
> You raise an interesting question though - what happens to the dwp copy of recordings once made?


Nurse didn't even label the tape as to what it was about. So presumably it was filed straight in the bin. 

When they claim they have no record of the recording the best part is the last words on the tape are the nurse saying "you can stop recording now." 


There is no way on earth I'm letting the original recording out of my possession and I have no way of duplicating the tape. Is there a gizmo that I can download the tape to PC and burn a CD from there? Is there any cheapo software that will allow me to filter the motor noise out to make the recording more legible(?) ?


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## WouldBe (Jan 1, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I know this is is news to no-one on this thread but they really are a bunch of cockwombling fuckmuppets for not storing the recordings properly in any format.


No point us having to go to the trouble of providing duplicate recordings then. If I'd have known I'd have used my digital dictaphone and downloaded it to my PC and used the software supplied to do the transcription instead of spending hours listening to the tape and trying to do it manually.


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## existentialist (Jan 1, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Nurse didn't even label the tape as to what it was about. So presumably it was filed straight in the bin.
> 
> When they claim they have no record of the recording the best part is the last words on the tape are the nurse saying "you can stop recording now."
> 
> ...


If you can get a cassette deck from somewhere, and a suitable lead, you can plug it into a computer, and "play" the tape into the sound card from where you can record it (use something like Audacity).


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## existentialist (Jan 1, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> No point us having to go to the trouble of providing duplicate recordings then. If I'd have known I'd have used my digital dictaphone and downloaded it to my PC and used the software supplied to do the transcription instead of spending hours listening to the tape and trying to do it manually.


Next time, perhaps do a covert recording yourself, plus get them to do the duplicate job. Then, when they "lose" their copy, you can produce (at tribunal) your backup copy as well as your copy of their tape. None of which stops them from being complete and utter cunts. It'd be good to see a well-financed class action against DWP for what, individually, might look like isolated errors, but collectively looks suspiciously like a very well-coordinated strategy.


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## WouldBe (Jan 1, 2017)

existentialist said:


> If you can get a cassette deck from somewhere, and a suitable lead, you can plug it into a computer, and "play" the tape into the sound card from where you can record it (use something like Audacity).


 I've already got the dictaphones that I used to record the assessment I could use one of those to connect to the computer. Not sure I could simply connect the dictaphones together as the ear / mic levels may be wrong and I'd like to clean the recording up if possible.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 2, 2017)

existentialist said:


> It'd be good to see a well-financed class action against DWP for what, individually, might look like isolated errors, but collectively looks suspiciously like a very well-coordinated strategy.


Is this possible? where do you start? - would it cost thousands? is no civil liberies/ activist/ charity/ union /other organisation doing this?


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## WouldBe (Jan 3, 2017)

Think I need to add hallucinations to my list of problems. When I read through the info from the DWP I could swear blind I'd seen something to say the assessment finished at 16:23 which can't possibly be right as I only used 1 side of a C90 cassette tape to record it and was no where near the end of the tape when I finished so the assessment lasted well under the 45 minutes of 1 side of the tape. Having looked through all the pages again 4 times yesterday I can find no mention of the assessments end time although I've not checked to see if I've lost a page some how.


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## equationgirl (Jan 3, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Think I need to add hallucinations to my list of problems. When I read through the info from the DWP I could swear blind I'd seen something to say the assessment finished at 16:23 which can't possibly be right as I only used 1 side of a C90 cassette tape to record it and was no where near the end of the tape when I finished so the assessment lasted well under the 45 minutes of 1 side of the tape. Having looked through all the pages again 4 times yesterday I can find no mention of the assessments end time although I've not checked to see if I've lost a page some how.


Oh I do that with things too. Usually the file or report turns up eventually.


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## WouldBe (Jan 4, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Oh I do that with things too. Usually the file or report turns up eventually.


I checked again last night and all the pages are accounted for.  

Even though the DWP want to rule the transcript of the assessment inadmissible as ATOS have no recollection of a request to record the assessment, the part of the transcript where I start to black out and the HP apologises appears to have been redacted.  This bit was highlighted along with quite a few other bits of the transcript and the DWP photocopy has coped well with all the other bits making them legible except this part which is totally blacked out.  Might have to reprint that page then photocopy it to see what happens.

I should have recorded on my digital dictaphone a phone conversation with ATOS about recording the assessment where they explain that *I* need to provide the recording equipment. I also have receipts from a few days later for 2 identical dictaphones and a pack of 3 cassettes. Lets see them wriggle out of that one.


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## WouldBe (Jan 4, 2017)

Is there anyway I can get the dictaphone forensically checked for fingerprints as the Tosser turned off one of the recorders off at the end so her fingerprints will be on it?

Can I get the tape forensically analysed to compare her voice on the recording to her actual voice?


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## existentialist (Jan 4, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Is there anyway I can get the dictaphone forensically checked for fingerprints as the Tosser turned off one of the recorders off at the end so her fingerprints will be on it?
> 
> Can I get the tape forensically analysed to compare her voice on the recording to her actual voice?


It's one thing getting it forensically analysed/checked, quite another getting it done in a way which makes it admissible as evidence in court...


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## existentialist (Jan 4, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I checked again last night and all the pages are accounted for.
> 
> Even though the DWP want to rule the transcript of the assessment inadmissible as ATOS have no recollection of a request to record the assessment, the part of the transcript where I start to black out and the HP apologises appears to have been redacted.  This bit was highlighted along with quite a few other bits of the transcript and the DWP photocopy has coped well with all the other bits making them legible except this part which is totally blacked out.  Might have to reprint that page then photocopy it to see what happens.
> 
> I should have recorded on my digital dictaphone a phone conversation with ATOS about recording the assessment where they explain that *I* need to provide the recording equipment. I also have receipts from a few days later for 2 identical dictaphones and a pack of 3 cassettes. Lets see them wriggle out of that one.


It sounds like you're pretty well set up to do some righteous arse-kicking here, even with what you do have. Not, of course, that you should ever have had to, but...


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## WouldBe (Jan 5, 2017)

existentialist said:


> It sounds like you're pretty well set up to do some righteous arse-kicking here, even with what you do have. Not, of course, that you should ever have had to, but...


Lessons learned from having to deal with this shit over several years. Record everything, save all receipts, scan and photocopy everything. Don't give the bastards an inch.


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## existentialist (Jan 5, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Lessons learned from having to deal with this shit over several years. Record everything, save all receipts, scan and photocopy everything. Don't give the bastards an inch.


Good for you. Not everyone learns those lessons, so don't be taking that entirely for granted!


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## passenger (Jan 5, 2017)

well i had my ESA interview after trying to get a home visit for 10 months finally ,
i was told i had to go from my home in w sussex to Balham in a taxi they paid for 
this happend to be the last working day of the year for them my interview was the last 
one for the lady interviewing i was in there for a total of 25 minutes, the last one was 
1 hour 10 mins  she said as i had come all that way and needed to rush through the interview hardly asked any questions like last time it was all a bit odd ,I did stick to my plan 
as i had learnt from last time, well i think i had... at one point i made a move for the door and tried to open it as i was feeling a bit panicky, but the door was locked and the lady asked me what 
on earth i was doing  i replied by saying the room was to small ( in fact it was massive ) I did everything I could in the book, from what i have learnt from here and all the help greebo and others on urban have given me, but was difficult as it was nothing like my last interview as I have mentioned .
So in a nutshell its nice to write it down on here I really do not know what on earth will happen but I gave it my best.


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## equationgirl (Jan 5, 2017)

Well done for giving it your all passenger


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## Orang Utan (Jan 5, 2017)

Do Atos do all assessments for the DWP?
I've been summoned for one on the 25th after 3 months on ESA.
But it's at the DWP head office. With a 'healthcare professional' (I assume that means they're not a proper doctor, otherwise they'd say so. 
Shitting it tbh. Don't know what to tell them. They're sure to cut me off.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 5, 2017)

I will of course be having a look at this thread, but, yikes, it's over 200 pages long.


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## existentialist (Jan 5, 2017)

passenger said:


> well i had my ESA interview after trying to get a home visit for 10 months finally ,
> i was told i had to go from my home in w sussex to Balham in a taxi they paid for
> this happend to be the last working day of the year for them my interview was the last
> one for the lady interviewing i was in there for a total of 25 minutes, the last one was
> ...


I'm a bit fucking appalled that they locked you into a room


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## passenger (Jan 6, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I'm a bit fucking appalled that they locked you into a room


thanks mate for your concern but i was locked in with the nurse /health test person 
she was really nice and friendly made quite a change to the last two, but I was not 
being fooled into any false sense of security, I just kept thinking what greebo and equationgirl had told me... its a joke really i want care and help and to be re trained 
to do a roll I can do from home, but all you seem to do is fight these shits to get money 
as being a hard working taxpayer all my life until my accident (moan over)


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## WouldBe (Jan 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> If you can get a cassette deck from somewhere, and a suitable lead, you can plug it into a computer, and "play" the tape into the sound card from where you can record it (use something like *Audacity*).


Managed to copy the tape to PC and clean it up with audacity but what type of format do I need to save it as so it can be played on a normal CD player?


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## existentialist (Jan 9, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Managed to copy the tape to PC and clean it up with audacity but what type of format do I need to save it as so it can be played on a normal CD player?


You need to write it out as a 44100 Hz 16-bit stereo .WAV file  which will then be able to be used by a suitable program to burn a CD from.


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## WouldBe (Jan 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> You need to write it out as a 44100 Hz 16-bit stereo .WAV file  which will then be able to be used by a suitable program to burn a CD from.


Cheers. It's saved as a .WAV file just wasn't sure if that would play on a CD player otherwise I'm going to have to buy a laptop and take that to the tribunal as well.


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## existentialist (Jan 9, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Cheers. It's saved as a .WAV file just wasn't sure if that would play on a CD player otherwise I'm going to have to buy a laptop and take that to the tribunal as well.


You may find that, whatever format you've saved it as, your burning software will convert it. But don't count on that - you'll want to play the burned CD in a couple of drives just to be on the safe side.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2017)

Is this the thread to ask questions about any work capability assessments or just those done by ATOS? 
Mine is going to be done by the Health Assessment Advisory Service, whoever they are. 
I really don't know what I'm supposed to be telling them - the Assessment takes between 20-60 minutes, so they must have a lot of questions!


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## passenger (Jan 9, 2017)

Orang Utan yes all things DWP related ESA ,PIP the lot ,its a minefield luck of the draw
really, depends on how the person interviewing feels on the day, I can honestly say they lie 
make things up I would not have believed it, but have had the misfortune to of had a bad one
who really disliked me from the offset and managed to get zero points on an ESA interview 
but had managed to secure the correct amount of points for PIP ...but for some great advice from the mighty urbanites I would be up shit street good luck to you.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2017)

Just read online that these people were once called Maximus and they're like the new ATOS - did a search here for Maximus and found quite a lot of mentions, along with some good advice. Gonna research the points system, but am shit scared they'll think I'm not unwell enough to find work cos I 'only' have anxiety and depression. I don't think the time I spend helping my mum is going to be considered.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Is this the thread to ask questions about any work capability assessments or just those done by ATOS?
> Mine is going to be done by the Health Assessment Advisory Service, whoever they are.
> I really don't know what I'm supposed to be telling them - the Assessment takes between 20-60 minutes, so they must have a lot of questions!



If you filled in an ESA application form, then they'll be looking to cross-check your responses on the form with your responses on the assessment - basically, if they can get you to even mildly contradict yourself, you'll fail the assessment, as they're thoroughgoing scum.

If you haven't filled in an application form, but have been put on short-term ESA due to sickness carried over from work sick pay, they'll be looking to assess how ill you are.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> If you filled in an ESA application form, then they'll be looking to cross-check your responses on the form with your responses on the assessment - basically, if they can get you to even mildly contradict yourself, you'll fail the assessment, as they're thoroughgoing scum.
> 
> If you haven't filled in an application form, but have been put on short-term ESA due to sickness carried over from work sick pay, they'll be looking to assess how ill you are.


oh bollocks. i haven't kept a copy of the form i sent back to them, which was this:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/379/schedule/2/made
my answers were mostly none of the above, so I fear they will make me go on JSA, but they very thought of this is making me anxious as I had such a shit time last time I was on it


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Just read online that these people were once called Maximus and they're like the new ATOS - did a search here for Maximus and found quite a lot of mentions, along with some good advice. Gonna research the points system, but am shit scared they'll think I'm not unwell enough to find work cos I 'only' have anxiety and depression.



This is why you have to be fairly brutal about presenting your "worst case scenario" as your everyday experience. If you don't, they'll pretty much mark you as "he can occasionally manage, therefore he can manage, therefore he doesn't need ESA".



> I don't think the time I spend helping my mum is going to be considered.



It won't. In fact they're likely to take the fact that you help your mum as an indication that you could do care-work. 
If I were in your shoes, I'd only mention your mum *if* it was to state that her poor and declining health is a further cause of anxiety and depression. I know that seems a bit cuntish, but they really are a fantastically-shit bunch of fuckwads who routinely fuck people over based on nothing.


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## existentialist (Jan 9, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't think the time I spend helping my mum is going to be considered.


Not only will it not be considered, it will be used to "prove" that you cannot be anxious or depressed, because nobody anxious or depressed ever helped their mum. Fact.

I would be careful not to mention it, except, perhaps, in a negative context - "Some days I'm so bad, I can't even give my poor aged mum the help she so desperately needs, etc."

ETA: or, to put it another way, exactly what ViolentPanda said


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## Orang Utan (Jan 9, 2017)

Just been told I NEED to take someone with me, or they will almost certainly consider me fit for work, as this would be an indication that I can cope with things


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## BCBlues (Jan 10, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Just been told I NEED to take someone with me, or they will almost certainly consider me fit for work, as this would be an indication that I can cope with things



It makes a massive difference if you can take someone with you otherwise yes they will make it a big issue that you made it there alone, handled the assessment alone etc and they will also enjoy the fact that you don't have any back up when they blatantly lie in your assessment report.
Having said that it's not the end of the world if you don't have anyone to go with you. They have to prove that you can do this REPEATEDLY, RELIABLY, SAFELY and WITHOUT PAIN.
A one off instance is no proof that you can.
You may have reserved all your energy to get through this and made yourself very ill in the process and put yourself at risk.
I doubt very much that any Assessor would ever see it this way but it would be your arguing point later come the reconsideration and appeal.

Just one other thing Orang Utan I don't know enough about you and your mum's circumstances but you might qualify for Carers Allowance or a Carers Premium if you are providing at least 35 hours care for your mum and if she is in receipt of Attendance Allowance, DLA Care Higher Rate or PIP Daily Living Component (and that no one else is claiming carers allowance/premium for looking after her).


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## equationgirl (Jan 10, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Just been told I NEED to take someone with me, or they will almost certainly consider me fit for work, as this would be an indication that I can cope with things


Broadly speaking,  yes. It's helpful to have another person there to take notes, for example. However,  they are likely to take you attending alone as 'evidence' that you are capable of getting from A to B without assistance and therefore you are capable of work. This thread has a lot of anecdotal evidence of such things. Also remember you are being assessed basically from when you set foot inside the place, and any general 'chit chat ' such as 'was the traffic bad today? ' is another tool used to elicit information from the candidate to be used as evidence they can work.

Always, always,  always keep a copy of any forms sent back - they have a habit of going missing at the best of times. And always complete them from your worst day viewpoint.


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## passenger (Jan 10, 2017)

Well thats me done for I could not get anyone to come with me at short notice
but I did battle for a home visit for ten months  maybe I should of not have not read this thread this morning ....but they paid for my Taxi there and back


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## Jackobi (Jan 10, 2017)

Good luck passenger


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## BCBlues (Jan 10, 2017)

passenger said:


> Well thats me done for I could not get anyone to come with me at short notice
> but I did battle for a home visit for ten months  maybe I should of not have not read this thread this morning ....but they paid for my Taxi there and back



Not necessarily. I also couldn't find a short notice replacement, had a lift there and back and just about managed walking into the centre and doing the assessment.
The WCA made a big deal of this and even at reconsideration it wasn't taken into account how ill it made me and how I ended up in bed for the next three days in pain.
At appeal stage though it became obvious that even though I managed this as a one off very important appointment, I could not be expected to do this;
REPEATEDLY, RELIABLY, SAFELY and WITHOUT PAIN and was therefore placed in the support group.

Keep those words in mind when considering any activities they ask if you can carry out.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 12, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Just been told I NEED to take someone with me, or they will almost certainly consider me fit for work, as this would be an indication that I can cope with things


 Yes take someone with you. For moral support or to help keep you calm if you are anxious.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 12, 2017)

BCBlues said:


> REPEATEDLY, RELIABLY, SAFELY and WITHOUT PAIN


 We can't repeat these words enough, those are what the govt guidance say you should be able to do.
Beware atos /whoever will take any small thing you do once in the interview, like picking up a pencil or travelling there on your own, as evidence that you can do that thing REPEATEDLY, RELIABLY, SAFELY and WITHOUT PAIN.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 12, 2017)

passenger said:


> Well thats me done for I could not get anyone to come with me at short notice
> but I did battle for a home visit for ten months  maybe I should of not have not read this thread this morning ....but they paid for my Taxi there and back


hope it went ok.


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## passenger (Jan 13, 2017)

thanks friendofdorothy for your concern and help with all this 
stressful stuff your a star


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## Ergo Proxy (Jan 13, 2017)

Well my appeals been received by the Tribunal Service so need to write to the DWP to get ESA back into payment enclosing a copy of the Tribunal Acceptance + 2 fit notes. That plus the SDP backdated 4 months mean I need to do some math later!

I decided to ask them to look for points on activities;
12 (c)
13 (c)
15 (b)
16 (a)
17 (c)

and consider support group either via 16 (a) or special rules due to my increased risk of distress caused by appointments (even telephone ones) and also the increase in my usage of Diazipam which would be associated with having to participate. Chucked in 2 GP letters from 2014, my last psychiatrist report from 2013 and also my last appeal sub (welf written) from 2012. Added in a cheeky last line about how they had confused not washing with face cloth use and eating a banana and grapefruit for breakfast as cooking - hinting that there were other subtle but quite drastic in meaning changes just to cast doubt on the ESA85.

To the person obsessed by their recording (I have a covert one of the assessment as a memory aid)  all you have to do cast a modicum of doubt. The Tribunal panel know the score with assessment and reports, so you gently plant the seed and let nature take it's course! I have 2 welfare rights written Tribunal Submissions; neither even bother mentioning the ESA85 or any other evidence the DWP provided. They just say please look at these activities scored at.......

Also got a copy of my end of Dec psychiatric assessment off my GP which basically backs the 2013 psyc report and then goes over and above. So I need to write to them and hopefully the Tribunal panel will accept it as valid due to it being a continuance of earlier reports/letters.

As my 1st welf said that's a 'right touch' when reading my 1st ESA85 report. And I doubt he was born anywhere near the sound of the Bow Bells either! But it made me chuckle!


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## iona (Jan 13, 2017)

passenger said:


> Well thats me done for I could not get anyone to come with me at short notice
> but I did battle for a home visit for ten months  maybe I should of not have not read this thread this morning ....but they paid for my Taxi there and back



Not necessarily. I've never had someone else come with me and I've been put in the support group every time apart from the most recent one (and the report from that was full of enough lies that I'm pretty confident I would've been moved to support if I'd got round to appealing in time). 

It's definitely better to bring someone with you if possible, but don't you or anyone else start stressing that you've automatically failed because you weren't able to arrange that for whatever reason.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Just been told I NEED to take someone with me, or they will almost certainly consider me fit for work, as this would be an indication that I can cope with things


tbh they would probably take the fact that you know someone to be proof you can work


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## equationgirl (Jan 13, 2017)

I'd never say (and don't believe I've ever said on this thread) that it would be an automatic fail if you went alone. It's more that you have another person there as a witness and notetaker Going alone just makes it (in their eyes, I stress) easier to day a claimant is fit for work. And nobody likes to make it easy for the assessor.


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## Ergo Proxy (Jan 13, 2017)

iirc all you have to say is........

having somebody with me would make task X easier because........

you don''t actually have to have another person!

Just the need for another.

Although that is more an argument for DLA it still works under ESA. e.g.

Whilst I can go to the shop by myself... I can only go to one shop at a set time where I buy the same things out of habit. If I had somebody with me..... I might be able to go to more shops and they could help me buy different things and aid me in the use of a shopping list. etc


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## Ergo Proxy (Jan 16, 2017)

Anybody want a job as a freelance Capita PIP assessor?

Capita - Contractor Disability Assessor - Belfast - £75 per report - UK - Northern Ireland - Belfast UK - Northern Ireland - Belfast NA



> *Job details*
> 
> *Contractor Disability Assessor - Belfast - £75 Per Report*
> *Job overview*
> ...


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## existentialist (Jan 16, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Anybody want a job as a freelance Capita PIP assessor?
> 
> Capita - Contractor Disability Assessor - Belfast - £75 per report - UK - Northern Ireland - Belfast UK - Northern Ireland - Belfast NA


I know a couple of people who've worked for Capita, albeit in a different setting, and nothing they say there about their working environment bears any relation to the reality.


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## StoneRoad (Jan 16, 2017)

My, albeit limited, experience with c(r)apita has been poor in the extreme. But, then, I've not heard anyone come up much positive about them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2017)

My sister has agreed to accompany me, which is a relief as she was the only one who I could have asked.
Will find it difficult not to mention the caring for mum thing as this is the main reason I have not been looking for work and the main reason I've not the mental energy to even think about finding it. Going on JSA will take up so much time that I won't be able to prepare as many meals for my mum or visit her as often as I do at the moment. My other main source of anxiety, aside from my mum's health situation, is the worry that I'll have to go on JSA and go through all that bureaucracy again. When I'm under stress, I freeze and feel incapable of doing anything. When my stress was at its worse last year, I was working, but all I could do is sit there, staring blankly at my screen. Gonna have to ramp up those feelings, just so I feel sufficiently stressed enough to convince them of my incapacity. Feels dishonest but I've been told you really need to exaggerate everything to not get sanctioned.


----------



## iona (Jan 18, 2017)

Orang Utan it's not dishonest. They need to know how you are on your very worst days.

They're devious, lying cunts anyway so even if you did exaggerate slightly, that's just evening the playing field imo. Not the same as actually lying.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 18, 2017)

It's not dishonest.  Remember they are looking for the slightest reason not to award the points you should get. How is telling them about your worst days exaggeration? These assessors, however outwardly friendly, are not your friend and for the most part should not be trusted. 

If the system could be relied upon to be fair, this thread would not exist.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2017)

I guess, but I also suspect that my reasons for not being able to seek work at the moment, while perfectly good reasons for anyone reasonable, and certainly good enough reasons for my GP to sign me off, will not be good enough reasons for CHDA/HAAS/Maximus or whatever cloak they have on today.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I guess, but I also suspect that my reasons for not being able to seek work at the moment, while perfectly good reasons for anyone reasonable, and certainly good enough reasons for my GP to sign me off, will not be good enough reasons for CHDA/HAAS/Maximus or whatever cloak they have on today.


you must convince yourself you are at death's door as if they scent an iota of health about you, you will be sent to the work camps.


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## Jackobi (Jan 18, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> Going on JSA will take up so much time that I won't be able to prepare as many meals for my mum or visit her as often as I do at the moment.



It might have been mentioned to you before, but you can have an extended period of sickness whilst claiming JSA for up to 13 weeks covered by a fit note. Also, if your mother receives qualifying rates of DLA, PIP or Attendance Allowance, you can claim carer's allowance for looking after her.

Benefits for people who are sick or disabled - Citizens Advice


----------



## Orang Utan (Jan 18, 2017)

Cheers, I can't claim Carer's Allowance, because she doesn't live with me, but in a nursing home. She won't eat a lot of the shitty food, so we cook for her. And the only stimulation she gets at the moment is people reading to her. I do most of this as I have more time. She can no longer read, operate a radio, tv, tablet, phone or computer, so it's down to us to keep her occupied. Otherwise she just lies in her bed feeling miserable and frightened.  
I cannot tell the Man any of this as this is apparently irrelevant to my capacity to find work. 
I didn't know about the JSA fit note clearance, so will look into that, thanks. That would give me a bit of grace, until, hopefully, my mum gets well enough for her to feel happy with less frequent visits. 
I am thinking about looking for part time work, so I can attend to both needs as it were. This may be the answer, though this would mean continuing to live with my dad at age 43, and leaving my joke of a career on ice for even longer.


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## yardbird (Jan 19, 2017)

Orang Utan I'm safe from all  their shit now, but that's because I tailored everything for me and not for them. You helped me through it all and I chose the winning path. It's like a fucking game to these people so play it back.
You know - and we do as well - that you have been doing good things. Leaving London to help your mum because of the way she was/is and the bastards don't understand that at all.
Your health is fucked and anything that you say or do must convey that.
You won't be lying or cheating but you must play the game so that you get the right result.
It's poker.
No lies involved,but every day is your worst and this must be conveyed.
I reached retirement age at just the  right time or it may have been that I caused physical harm to an assessor.
I haven't read all this but know that you are deserving, so just batter the shit out of an uncaring system.
My thoughts are with you.

^^ does all this make sense ? Fuck knows.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 19, 2017)

Makes sense to me yardbird - hope you are doing ok x


----------



## BCBlues (Jan 19, 2017)

Brilliant post yardbird absolutely bang on


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## Orang Utan (Jan 24, 2017)

thanks again all

my meeting is tomorrow and i know they're going to declare me fit for work - i did the ESA50 form online and I score 0 points and need 15. Hardly worth bothering to go to it really.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> thanks again all
> 
> my meeting is tomorrow and i know they're going to declare me fit for work - i did the ESA50 form online and I score 0 points and need 15. Hardly worth bothering to go to it really.


Is this an official form on line or is it a random thing, I wonder how correct it is. Have you got a link
do you think your condition = 15pts?  If you do, are you phrasing your answers right? 
remember when answering any question, before you answer 'yes' ask yourself can you do that thing reliably, repeatedly and without pain (hope I have I got that phrase right) then the answer is really 'no'. eg can you walk 100m pershaps you can sometimes, but only with help, or it leaves you in pain or mental health conditions prevent you going out walking at all - then I'm not the answer is 'yes'.

You may as well go tomorrow whatever - what more could you lose and surely it can't do any harm.
Best wishes Orang Utan


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## BCBlues (Jan 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> thanks again all
> 
> my meeting is tomorrow and i know they're going to declare me fit for work - i did the ESA50 form online and I score 0 points and need 15. Hardly worth bothering to go to it really.



It certainly feels like that OU but that's probably part of their devious ways.

It's better to attend if you can, you will receive JSA a bit longer until the decision is made. In the long run it could certainly favour you at appeal stage to prove that you have tried to personally explain your illnesses to the DWP but they simply didn't listen.

On the other hand OU, reading your posts your problems are stress and anxiety related. If you are really not up to it tomorrow make sure you let them know that you are too ill to attend. Again it will look better at appeal stage if you have attempted to explain how things are.

Personally I'd try and go, let them really know how your worst days are. Ask your sister to jot down what is said as you will no doubt be misinterpreted by the assessor. 

Don't let them grind you down OU. 
Let us know how you get on and good luck.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 24, 2017)

Yes, don't let the bastards grind you down. I think they would much prefer it if we would die quietly without making a fuss. It's almost as if if you have any fight in you you can't possible be ill. its a catch 22 situation. Don't give then the satifation! 

chin up.


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## equationgirl (Jan 25, 2017)

Hope it went OK Orang Utan


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## Orang Utan (Jan 26, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Hope it went OK Orang Utan


It wasn't too bad, thanks. The interviewer behaved like a human. I wasn't asked anything that I felt overstepped anything and there was nothing combatorial about it as I had feared. Probs trying to lull me into a false sense of security. They told me someone else makes the decision, which is sneaky of them. They tell people with terminal illnesses and terrible physical limitations that they are capable of seeking work, so I doubt my case will score highly enough to continue with ESA but I have a few weeks' grace before I get told yay or nay


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## WouldBe (Jan 27, 2017)

I'm about to submit some more info before my PIP tribunal, not that I've got a date yet. DWP keep banging on about I don't meet the criteria. Is that the same as the descriptors or have the slimy bastards got an extra set of conditions hidden away?


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## passenger (Jan 27, 2017)

well done for going Orang Utan you might be surprised at the outcome,what ever happens
you tried, its  hard work all round even taking in the advice  on this stuff.


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## Jackobi (Jan 27, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Is that the same as the descriptors or have the slimy bastards got an extra set of conditions hidden away?



There is no extra set of conditions, the assessment is based on descriptors alone. The DWP are making sure that X% claimants are denied PIP to hit targets, it's more of a lottery system than anything else. The slightly good news is that by the appeal stage, the assessment is out of the hands of the DWP and the final decision made by an independent tribunal panel, hence why the majority of appeals are successful.


----------



## BCBlues (Jan 28, 2017)

Well done Orang Utan, I know you had doubts about attending.
The interview/assessment is probably the biggest hurdle in the process and you have got through it so seriously well done.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 29, 2017)

fingers crossed for you Orang Utan x


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## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2017)

They called me and they're cutting me off. 
I'm supposed to apply for Universal Credit or summat but if that involves having to go to a meeting every fortnight with loads of applications for jobs I don't want, can't do, or don't pay, then fuck that, I'm not playing.
I'd rather do without than go through that again 
And just after finishing their call with me, they've just texted me saying that they've tried to call me but couldn't get through.


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> They called me and they're cutting me off.



The next step is a Mandatory Reconsideration which you should send to the DWP within one month of the date on the decision letter. That will probably fail, at which point you can appeal.

Challenging an ESA decision - Citizens Advice


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> The next step is a Mandatory Reconsideration which you should send to the DWP within one month of the date on the decision letter. That will probably fail, at which point you can appeal.
> 
> Challenging an ESA decision - Citizens Advice


Ta, I wil appeal, whilst looking for work. I do want to get back to work. I just don't want to do that dance with the job centre. It's not worth the stress, humiliation and hoopjumping


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I just don't want to do that dance with the job centre.



You won't have any income if you don't claim either JSA or UC. The mandatory reconsideration has no time limit but usually take 4-6 weeks. And it isn't until the Tribunal Service confirms your appeal is going ahead that your ESA starts again. You could be left without any income for the next three months plus.

You should claim JSA or UC, get a fit note from your doctor if you don't have one already, and then go on an extended period of sickness for 13 weeks. That will give you some time to get the MR in and then appeal. If you are lucky, the appeal will be confirmed within those 13 weeks. Meantime, you will not have to sign on or attend the jobcentre.

The following is for JSA but the same applies to UC.

"You can still claim JSA if you’re sick for longer than 2 weeks but less than 13 weeks in a 12-month period. This is called an ‘Extended Period of Sickness’. If you’re sick for longer than 2 weeks you’ll need a doctor’s note. You can only have one Extended Period of Sickness in any 12-month period."

Benefits for people looking for work - Citizens Advice

Get your claim in OU, otherwise you'll be fucked.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2017)

I'm lucky enough to be staying at my dad's at the mo and would rather have no income than claim JSA/UC


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2017)

Orang Utan You are missing out on £1000.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 2, 2017)

Orang Utan 
If you claim jsa/uc but go sick as per Jackobi's advice, you'll not have to "do the dance" whilst waiting for the result of the Mandatory Reconsideration, and then getting the appeal into the tribunal. And a lot of rejected ESA claims are overturned in the claimants' favour by the Appeal Tribunals.
All this process is intended to do is to put people off claiming the benefits to which they are entitled.
If you duck out, you are letting them win (and make it even harder for other people to get past the "scroungers and skivers" labels).
There is plenty of support available on Urban to help people, like you, overcome this appallingly unfair system.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 2, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> Orang Utan You are missing out on £1000.


That I have to get for applying for six jobs or whatever a week, going to the job centre, being pressured into doing things I don't want. All that gets in the way of finding a decent suitable job. It's not worth it. I would only do it if I was in danger of starving or being made destitute.


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## Jackobi (Feb 2, 2017)

You are missing the point Orang Utan, if you are on an extended period of sickness for 13 weeks and claiming JSA/UC (unemployed), you will not have to attend the jobcentre.


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## passenger (Feb 2, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> You are missing the point Orang Utan, if you are on an extended period of sickness for 13 weeks and claiming JSA/UC (unemployed), you will not have to attend the jobcentre.


this


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## equationgirl (Feb 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> That I have to get for applying for six jobs or whatever a week, going to the job centre, being pressured into doing things I don't want. All that gets in the way of finding a decent suitable job. It's not worth it. I would only do it if I was in danger of starving or being made destitute.


You won't have to do anything for the 13 weeks as explained by Jackobi.  don't let the dwp force you out of the system, this is what you pay national insurance for.


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## chainsawjob (Feb 7, 2017)

It's all gone to shit with my benefits, my ESA has been stopped and I'm about to lose my DLA and have to apply for PIP.  It's not directly an ATOS issue so I won't go into detail here, but I could do with some support/advice if anyone's able to help (thread is here ESA stopped because partner has claimed JSA ), I feel like giving up on the whole business tbh.


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 7, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> It's all gone to shit with my benefits, my ESA has been stopped and I'm about to lose my DLA and have to apply for PIP.  It's not directly an ATOS issue so I won't go into detail here, but I could do with some support/advice if anyone's able to help (thread is here ESA stopped because partner has claimed JSA ), I feel like giving up on the whole business tbh.


I'm so sorry to hear this - they really don't make it easy. The whole sytem is so complex you have to be an expert or a cheat to understand it, and just when you think you know the score they change it all, so I've no idea how it all works now. Just been reading your other thread, what a palaver for you.

Hope all the stress doesn't affect your health too badly. Best wishes.


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## Mr.Bishie (Feb 7, 2017)

The PIP offices had their first floor windows stoved in on Upper North St, Brighton last night.


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## Orang Utan (Feb 8, 2017)

StoneRoad said:


> Orang Utan
> If you claim jsa/uc but go sick as per Jackobi's advice, you'll not have to "do the dance" whilst waiting for the result of the Mandatory Reconsideration, and then getting the appeal into the tribunal. And a lot of rejected ESA claims are overturned in the claimants' favour by the Appeal Tribunals.
> All this process is intended to do is to put people off claiming the benefits to which they are entitled.
> If you duck out, you are letting them win (and make it even harder for other people to get past the "scroungers and skivers" labels).
> There is plenty of support available on Urban to help people, like you, overcome this appallingly unfair system.





Jackobi said:


> You are missing the point Orang Utan, if you are on an extended period of sickness for 13 weeks and claiming JSA/UC (unemployed), you will not have to attend the jobcentre.





equationgirl said:


> You won't have to do anything for the 13 weeks as explained by Jackobi.  don't let the dwp force you out of the system, this is what you pay national insurance for.


thanks, I got their letter confirming their assessment yesterday and called the DWP to claim JSA today.
I am appealing, though I don't really have any new evidence, unless my doctor is willing to write something. I scored 0 points, but think their assessment system is wrong and shouldn't be used. They should take a sick note from a GP as good enough for a claim IMO. 
I still have to go in to the Job Centre on Monday though, which worries me.


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## StoneRoad (Feb 8, 2017)

Orang Utan - Keep on with the appeal process and get that sick / fit note into the dwp.
There have been a remarkable number of people whose initial assessment was zero points, but who went through the process and were awarded their entitlement, several of whom post on here !


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## chainsawjob (Feb 8, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> I'm so sorry to hear this - they really don't make it easy. The whole sytem is so complex you have to be an expert or a cheat to understand it, and just when you think you know the score they change it all, so I've no idea how it all works now. Just been reading your other thread, what a palaver for you.
> 
> Hope all the stress doesn't affect your health too badly. Best wishes.



Thanks friendofdorothy, appreciate your reply. You're right, the system is so impenetrable even the people running it don't understand it, what chance does anyone else have? I'm going to seek out more advice, and see where we go from here. My husband being out of work has been stressful, so at least that stress is removed currently. Thanks for the good wishes.


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## Jackobi (Feb 8, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> I still have to go in to the Job Centre on Monday though, which worries me.



It is probably best not to mention that you are going to go on an extended period of sickness when you first attend the Jobcentre as you will need to declare yourself fit for work to claim JSA. Maybe leave it a couple of weeks, as you will not get any money for the first 7 days anyway. Perhaps present a fit note at your first signing on day. Sign on first for the previous fortnight, then tell them you are taking an extended period of sickness. A couple of visits to the JC might be stressful but it's definitely worth a £1000. Just think of the money, although it's still fuck all really spread over 13 weeks.


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## WouldBe (Feb 11, 2017)

Still waiting to hear about a tribunal date. 

A TOSser claimed I could read N8 alright even though I said I would struggle at that small a size. Finally got round to getting my eyesight tested the other day and it turns out I definitely need reading glasses.


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## Ergo Proxy (Feb 11, 2017)

Well call my timbers well and truly shivered!

I've just received a letter from the TS stating that my appeal has been lapsed due to a more favourable decision taken by the Appeals Officer.

Just have to wait on the official DWP letter stating which group and how long before next reassessment?

If it's WRAG and 18 months or less then I'll be requesting a Statement of Reasons - the score sheet and lodging an appeal. Quite frankly WFI's - the Work Program - Health n Work (or whatever the next big buzzy thing is) can all go fuck themselves!


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## passenger (Feb 11, 2017)

Just received a letter asking me to call the DWP asap re the outcome of my assessment 
they said they have been  trying to contact me but have some very old contact details so I have 
to wait till Monday morning to see my fate  it's nearly 8 weeks since my medical so hopefully WRAG /Support group or back to fucking JSA


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## StoneRoad (Feb 11, 2017)

Why is it that the "DWP" seem to specialise in sending letters to arrive on a Saturday ?

They are not the only ones - a few years ago some friends were having trouble with their landlord. He (& his "legal representative" seemed to only send letters so they would arrive on Saturday - and local post delivery is always delivered after places for advice are shut / already fully booked for the first part of the next week.


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## equationgirl (Feb 11, 2017)

They're like my employer who also specialises in sending letters containing information of little consequence during a redundancy exercise. Usually these letters are a reprint of the information sent to all staff via email. These also often arrive on Saturday morning. 

Here's hoping you get a good result passenger. Whatever the result, ask them to confirm it in writing (sent to the right address).


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## passenger (Feb 11, 2017)

well its the weekend so i will have a beer and my neighbour just dropped me a joint off
so will self medicate and pray Monday morning is good news day, its mad they give me PIP but have to fight like a dog to get ESA  well its been 8 weeks so surely it can`t be a no your
back on JSA mate ..... can it ?


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## chainsawjob (Feb 12, 2017)

Hope it's the right result passenger, no fun having to wait through the weekend.


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## passenger (Feb 12, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Hope it's the right result passenger, no fun having to wait through the weekend.


It's like waiting for the jury to make there mind up ,but less fair  I am looking thinking 
 the worse case scenario, as they have been trying to call me to discuss the outcome...


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 12, 2017)

passenger said:


> It's like waiting for the jury to make there mind up ,but less fair  I am looking thinking
> the worse case scenario, as they have been trying to call me to discuss the outcome...


fingers crossed x


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## passenger (Feb 13, 2017)

well i rang them the (DWP) I spoke to a lady who said someone will call
me regarding the decision  Wednesday between 9 and 5 talk about taking your time  ffs this is mad


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## chainsawjob (Feb 13, 2017)

how maddening passenger


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## Bakunin (Feb 13, 2017)

Called the DWP about an hour ago regarding my migration from DLA to PIP. They said I'm on the list for an appointment with ATOS. I'll try to get a home visit, but if I do end up at one of their assessment centres (Truro has two, apparently) I'm looking at getting a dual tape or CD recorder to take with me.

Any advice as to what kind, other than something that will record two cassettes or CD's at the same time? ATOS website says:



Your recording equipment must be able to produce two identical copies of the recording at the end of the consultation, either in audio cassette or CD format. You will need to give one copy of the recording to the Health Professional undertaking your consultation, at the end of the consultation. Devices like PCs, laptops, tablets, smartphones or MP3 players are not acceptable recording devices.

You will need to sign an agreement that sets out what you are and are not allowed to do with the recording.


Regarding this agreement, does it mean I'd be unable to use the recording or a transcript as pat of an appeal or mandatory reconsideration?


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## equationgirl (Feb 13, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Called the DWP about an hour ago regarding my migration from DLA to PIP. They said I'm on the list for an appointment with ATOS. I'll try to get a home visit, but if I do end up at one of their assessment centres (Truro has two, apparently) I'm looking at getting a dual tape or CD recorder to take with me.
> 
> Any advice as to what kind, other than something that will record two cassettes or CD's at the same time? ATOS website says:
> 
> ...


As far as I know, that's fine, especially if you're having memory problems. I think it's more they're worried about stuff being leaked to the media.


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## Bakunin (Feb 13, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> As far as I know, that's fine, especially if you're having memory problems. I think it's more they're worried about stuff being leaked to the media.



Would it help or hinder my case if they asked about employment and I said I'm a freelancer?


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## WouldBe (Feb 14, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> As far as I know, that's fine, especially if you're having memory problems. I think it's more they're worried about stuff being leaked to the media.


They forgot to ask me to sign anything. Can I leak the tape to the media?


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## passenger (Feb 14, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> how maddening passenger


Yeah it`s doing my head in, there (DWP) ringing me tomorrow I really need to stop looking up 
ESA decision maker calling on the internet  it's not good reading it looks like 
there only ringing to tell you   bad news i.e back to JSA  no points etc  I am chain smoking, can not eat, this is truly awful no one should go through this.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Feb 14, 2017)

passenger said:


> Yeah it`s doing my head in, there (DWP) ringing me tomorrow I really need to stop looking up
> ESA decision maker calling on the internet  it's not good reading it looks like
> there only ringing to tell you   bad news i.e back to JSA  no points etc  I am chain smoking, can not eat, this is truly awful no one should go through this.


Waiting sounds awful.  Do try to keep calm. Not easy, I know. Try to eat something, Try to do something before hand to distract yourself (film? music? chat?)

If they are telling you difficult stuff - a good trick to help remember and make it clearer, it is echo it/repeat it back to them eg: 'you have xxxx, so this means xxxx' you say 'xxxx?' ' so this means I have xxxx' , and then at the end of the call to sumarise it all back to them eg 'so you have told me xxxx which means xxxx. etc etc, So now I have to do xxxxx by xxx date, have I got that right? '. It also helps slow the call down so they can't just go 'We're telling you all this shit. Goodbye!' 

I don't have experience of these sorts of calls and can't advise especially - but this is just useful tecnique for difficult calls in general.

Have your questions worked out before hand, write them down, so you remember to ask them while they are still on the phone, ask them what your options are and if there are any time limits.

Try not to get angry with the person on the phone, even if they are really annoying - or telling you something that is hard to hear. It won't help you. Deep breaths. Repeat it back to them, Keep calm. Ask them can they also send it to you in writing - so you have it for your records too.

Thinking of you and trying to send good vibes. I hope its not all bad, fingers and toes crossed x.


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## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2017)

Best of luck passenger


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 15, 2017)

Sorry it's so awful passenger, you're right no-one should have to go though this.  Hope they get back to you early on today, and that it's good news, best of luck.


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## existentialist (Feb 15, 2017)

I saw a client the other day - bereavement, stuck grief, and some physical health issues. 
She's had ESA assessments made and cancelled twice at short notice, and when it eventually happened, it was the worst of everything described on this thread. 

She came to me suicidal. Cunts.


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## Celyn (Feb 15, 2017)

at the DWP and all its alphabet soup.


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## passenger (Feb 15, 2017)

thanks everyone for your kind words and help i am sitting by the phone waiting for the dreaded call ffs 5 days of anxiety its going to be a relief either way


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## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Would it help or hinder my case if they asked about employment and I said I'm a freelancer?


I would phrase it that you're unable to manage a full-time position due to your situation (apologies, I don't know all the details)  and make it clear that occasional freelancing writing is only possible because you can do it from home, it's not a full-time job, and occasional is all you can manage.


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## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> They forgot to ask me to sign anything. Can I leak the tape to the media?


As the copyright owner of the recording you may use it as you wish 

Especially if there were no restrictions placed upon you...


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## equationgirl (Feb 15, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I saw a client the other day - bereavement, stuck grief, and some physical health issues.
> She's had ESA assessments made and cancelled twice at short notice, and when it eventually happened, it was the worst of everything described on this thread.
> 
> She came to me suicidal. Cunts.


Obviously not a like for your client.  I hope she is ok.


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## Bakunin (Feb 15, 2017)

I'm debating whether or not to call or email ATOS to see if they have set an appointment date yet. If I email there'll be an electronic paper trail that could prove useful at an appeal or mandatory reconsideration. I'm also concerned that they'll try to send me to an assessment centre far away as, when I googled their PIP assessment centre address in Truro it gave me one in Plymouth.

And what's the likelihood that they'll try and give me an appointment with as little notice as possible, to make it harder to prepare, request a home appointment and tell them I'll be recording the assessment either way?

Phone or email? Thoughts?


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## passenger (Feb 16, 2017)

0 points back on JSA just can not believe what they have done there  total scum bags 
have to go to work focused interview next week


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## spirals (Feb 16, 2017)

So sorry, fight them! Ask for an mandatory reconsideration!


----------



## passenger (Feb 16, 2017)

spirals said:


> So sorry, fight them! Ask for an mandatory reconsideration!


i have but unless you sign on to jsa straight away they stop your money
i was  shocked but no points what an insult ....i was just staring at the wall in shock
for hours I felt like dirt ,but more upbeat today.
So any advice ,help from my fellow urbanites would be a big help


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## equationgirl (Feb 16, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> I'm debating whether or not to call or email ATOS to see if they have set an appointment date yet. If I email there'll be an electronic paper trail that could prove useful at an appeal or mandatory reconsideration. I'm also concerned that they'll try to send me to an assessment centre far away as, when I googled their PIP assessment centre address in Truro it gave me one in Plymouth.
> 
> And what's the likelihood that they'll try and give me an appointment with as little notice as possible, to make it harder to prepare, request a home appointment and tell them I'll be recording the assessment either way?
> 
> Phone or email? Thoughts?


I vote email so there is a record. You can always follow up with a phone call.  tell them in the email that you would like a home appointment and recording.


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## Jackobi (Feb 16, 2017)

passenger said:


> So any advice ,help from my fellow urbanites would be a big help



Claim JSA for 2-3 weeks, get a fit note, then go on an extended period of sickness for 13 weeks. Hopefully, by that time, the mandatory reconsideration will be done and your appeal submitted.

Benefits for people looking for work - Citizens Advice


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## chainsawjob (Feb 17, 2017)

So sorry passenger, that's awful. People do go from 0 points to enough points at appeal though, and the stats on decisions getting overturned on appeal are encouraging, don't give up.

I have Benefits and Work  membership if it would help to see what their advice is? They've given me helpful advice recently on an ESA ballsup that I'm trying to get sorted.

Home


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 17, 2017)

Really sorry to hear that Passenger. Its such a shit system, but worth fighting.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 17, 2017)

Shit new, passenger 
I hope you have the strength to fight this


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## passenger (Feb 17, 2017)

Tanks for the advice you lot i have made an appointment with the C A B just waiting for some paper work from the vile DWP


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 17, 2017)

passenger said:


> i have but unless you sign on to jsa straight away they stop your money
> i was  shocked but no points what an insult ....i was just staring at the wall in shock
> for hours I felt like dirt ,but more upbeat today.
> So any advice ,help from my fellow urbanites would be a big help


Like chainsawjob said, do fight it. And you have nothing to lose.
Are you well enough to go to the job centre?


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## equationgirl (Feb 18, 2017)

Hope you are OK passenger


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## Libertad (Feb 18, 2017)

Things are a bit um difficult atm. but I just wanted to leave a bit of solidarity on the thread. (((claimants)))


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## passenger (Feb 18, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Like chainsawjob said, do fight it. And you have nothing to lose.
> Are you well enough to go to the job centre?


Will have to get in some how try and get a lift in its like most injuries you have good and bad days friendofdorothy  i have a number to call re appeal but can not go to tribunal as they stop your money ...but again thanks to everyone i don`t feel alone as i am a member here


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## flustercuck (Feb 19, 2017)

had a WCA about 5 weeks ago.

Have got severe mental health problems - urgings, occasional voices, outbursts of angry , uncontrollably aggressive destructive behaviour and sometimes self harm. I can't, control my behaviour in public sometimes. A few days ago, someone tried to tell me off for littering when there was no bin in sight - he might have had me out as an easy target who wouldn't stand up for himself, he was wrong. There were stern words said, to put it politely. (I did say to him in response ; "How do you know I'm not violent? You wouldn't have picked on someone you thought was a threat - that means you believe I am an pushover. You are a bully, who picks on less powerful people to throw your weight around" at one point. it verbally escalated from there, but thats not the point)

Self harm - Normally where people can't see. it is about me trying to control my own environment, my own body, and not about inflicting anything on anyone else. So when I cut, its' places where people don't get to see.

Prior to going into the WCA such as writing on myself prior to the appointment, plus I was pressing a pen onto my skin throughout as a means of trying to stay centered.

it didn't work. I had taken a craft knife  (What the police generally rfer to as a "bladed article") in - sometimes I find it helps my self-control to cut.I self-harmed in the WCA.

They ended the appt early saying they had enough information to complete the assessment.I left the building early.They then filled in a UF1 form (i think thats what it is called). And told me to go the GP as it was an emergency situation. I did not.

Upon my return home, I had a letter from my psychiatrist  saying "unfit for work in foreseeable future".I could have done with that prior to the appointment.

Later that evening (after closing hours, but whilst building was still staffed) I handed a written apology for my behaviour and also the psychiatrist letter to the site, by placing it under the then locked door. Security were still there, so It wasnt to a closed office. (I had the psychiiatrist letter returned two days later in the post)

Next day at about 2pm,  had a call from my GP. Didnt recognise the number, so didnt pick it up. Phoned them back, didnt speak to GP. About 4pm  the Mental health nurse at the psychiatrist contacted me saying they had contact from the DWP about what had happened, so i spoke to them.

And then, 1640, I saw a police car pull up. Yeah, as the GP didn't get an answer from me, she contacted the police asking for them to conduct a safeguarding visit. I let them up, spoke to them, they left about 5 mins later. They did comment about how disorganised and messy my home was. I've never been told off by a Policeman for that before...

Far as I gather, self harm counts as a Schedule 3 descriptor, as per below ;

"14. Appropriateness of behaviour with other people, due to cognitive impairment or mental disorder.
- Has, on a daily basis, uncontrollable episodes of aggressive or disinhibited behaviour that would be unreasonable in any workplace."

Pretty clear it wouldn't be acceptable to start cutting and self harming in a workplace, they might consider that "disinhibited" (whatever the hell that is)  maybe? And also, as for aggressive, I suppose turning up with a bladed article and drawing blood might be considered potentially aggressive. I don't know their policies, on such things.

After 3 weeks of waiting, was placed into the support group. I didnt get the decision until 4 days later - on the Friday I got a letter from the Child Maintenance saying "your deductions are stopping" first, which is a surefire way of making sure you think your benefits have been cut off . What else can "we are stopping your deductions due to a change" mean? I read it only one way - that my ESA had been stopped. Imbeciles, that I got the actual decision letter on the monday.

hang in there, passenger. I ithink what you have to do is request a mandatory reconsideration first (timescale 4-6 weeks) and claim JSA in the meantime ; if the mandatory reconsideration is not favourable, then it goes upwards to appeal, and finally tribunal as the third stage. Other people seem more knowledgable about this, I just read the leaflet from rethink.


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## flustercuck (Feb 19, 2017)

Sorry for the longness of that. its um...long


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## friendofdorothy (Feb 20, 2017)

flustercuck said:


> Sorry for the longness of that. its um...long


don't worry about that. 

I'm only sorry they put you through that. Hope you get the help you need. x


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## iona (Feb 21, 2017)

Sorry to read all that flustercuck but glad you got the support group decision in the end 

I self-harmed during my last assessment to the point of drawing blood - the nurse doing the assessment _shouted at me_ several times to tell me to stop, yet there was no mention of it in the medical report. Apparently I "coped well at interview" including not trembling or rocking, able to sit still, able to concentrate and didn't require prompting - all of which are complete lies. 

Really wish I'd managed to appeal in time.


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## flustercuck (Feb 21, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> don't worry about that.
> 
> I'm only sorry they put you through that. Hope you get the help you need. x



What I'm more worried about is having to go to the GP this evening ; he's been my GP for twelve years, and didn't lock his PC. So I was able to see the "MUST BE CHAPERONED AT ALL VISITS - MAY HAVE A BLADE!" written on his screen. Which was very worrying, really. As it happens, I was seen alone. I explained to him what had happened in that assessment, seemed ok. I put in a reapeat last week and it came back witha "to be seen" message. Guess it was a result of their safeguarding policy.

The support group decision? Feels like a weight has been lifted. When I was in there they terminated the interview early, and...I requested a copy of the medical report. They're sending it out to me, but I've not had it yet.

Thank you iona. Its been a difficult few months.


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## Jackobi (Feb 21, 2017)

flustercuck said:


> ...on the Friday I got a letter from the Child Maintenance saying "your deductions are stopping" first, which is a surefire way of making sure you think your benefits have been cut off . What else can "we are stopping your deductions due to a change" mean? I read it only one way - that my ESA had been stopped.



It could be unrelated to your ESA claim. The CSA are moving all cases to the Child Maintenance Service (CMS) so if you have a case with CSA your deductions will stop if it is moving to CMS. The case will need to be reopened with CMS by your ex but your liability will not change, you will still pay the flat rate.


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## flustercuck (Feb 21, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> It could be unrelated to your ESA claim. The CSA are moving all cases to the Child Maintenance Service (CMS) so if you have a case with CSA your deductions will stop if it is moving to CMS. The case will need to be reopened with CMS by your ex but your liability will not change, you will still pay the flat rate.



The CSA - CEMA change over took place  for me about 12 months ago, so for me, that wasn't the case. As for flat rate - she's gone for "collect and pay", so i pay another 20% on top of the flat rate. It was from CEMA and related to a change of benefits status - there is no other reason why they would do that.


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## passenger (Feb 23, 2017)

Well managed to get into town to sign up for jobseekers, get some money next week 
was told by advisor to do my best if it gets to much go sick then back onto ESA all a bit odd
in fact i will get better money, as i have a disability he also said i only need to go in once every two weeks and saved me a lot of hassle, in all i left feeling rather happy.


----------



## Orang Utan (Feb 23, 2017)

I had to go sign on today and when they told me I would need to come back every week, I flipped a little, but this at least made them change their minds and I've now got two weeks but I've got to come back with evidence I've been looking for work. I hope they're happy with me saying I've been looking at emails and stuff but I think I've got to upload a CV onto Universal Jobmatch. 
Really don't have time to do that right now, but they've made a liar out of me by making me sign on to JSA. 
My advisor wasn't very empathetic, telling me that when their dad was ill in hospital they didn't get time off. When I told them their employer was mean then and that their experience should make them more sympathetic not less, they didn't like it, but I suppose they did sign the form that gave me two weeks grace.


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## passenger (Feb 24, 2017)

Solidarity Orang Utan just one step at a time


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## flustercuck (Feb 24, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> My advisor wasn't very empathetic, telling me that when their dad was ill in hospital they didn't get time off. When I told them their employer was mean then and that their experience should make them more sympathetic not less, they didn't like it, but I suppose they did sign the form that gave me two weeks grace.



Quite frankly, that is not for the advisor to say. It is irrelevant, and not comparing like with like. An employer contracts you at a wage to provide a service - a branch of the civil service and a government agency does not contract you to a minimum working week in return for benefits.

Pretty sure there must be something in the civil service code about this. Mind you, I tend to try to make their lives as difficult as possible. (the advisors, that is. Fuck 'em)


----------



## passenger (Feb 24, 2017)

iona said:


> Sorry to read all that flustercuck but glad you got the support group decision in the end
> 
> I self-harmed during my last assessment to the point of drawing blood - the nurse doing the assessment _shouted at me_ several times to tell me to stop, yet there was no mention of it in the medical report. Apparently I "coped well at interview" including not trembling or rocking, able to sit still, able to concentrate and didn't require prompting - all of which are complete lies.
> 
> Really wish I'd managed to appeal in time.


Sorry to hear that, sounds just like my interview i panicked and tried to walk out the room
twice told the person doing the assessment i felt very paranoid and my anxiety was really getting to me etc... but none of this was mentioned if there is a next time I am going with someone and recording it otherwise you have no chance its truly out of order.


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## iona (Feb 24, 2017)

passenger doesn't feel right to like that post, but yeah agreed - they're a bunch of lying cunts! 

Glad stuff seems to be working out for you now.


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## flustercuck (Feb 24, 2017)

passenger said:


> Sorry to hear that, sounds just like my interview i panicked and tried to walk out the room
> twice told the person doing the assessment i felt very paranoid and my anxiety was really getting to me etc... but none of this was mentioned if there is a next time I am going with someone and recording it otherwise you have no chance its truly out of order.



If you walk out of an interview, it is counted as failure to participate / failure to complete and is an automatic fail. if they terminate the interview early,  you cannot be penalised for their decision.

I self harmed in the interview. Wouldn't wish one of those interviews on anyone.


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## Celyn (Feb 25, 2017)

Well, you know, not "like" as in "like". Just, well, you know what I mean.


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## stuff_it (Feb 26, 2017)

My mate just got full enhanced PIPs for both elements, thanks in some parts to my assistance with their claim. We still haven't heard back re or request for a mandatory reassessment following the decision to keep them in the WRAG following their last work capability assessment. 

Does anyone know if having full enhanced PIPs awarded is likely to have any impact on the results of any reassessment or appeal? Surely there's a chance it could top things in our favour? This is their first application for PIPs, and they've never been on DLA.


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## Jackobi (Feb 26, 2017)

stuff_it said:


> Does anyone know if having full enhanced PIPs awarded is likely to have any impact on the results of any reassessment or appeal?



Legally it should have no bearing but the DWP is generally run by a bunch of cunts so who knows?


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## stuff_it (Feb 27, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> Legally it should have no bearing but the DWP is generally run by a bunch of cunts so who knows?


Cool. I was wondering if it counted as evidence of a certain level of incapacity, especially as it already counts as such for things like blue badge parking.


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## WouldBe (Feb 27, 2017)

stuff_it said:


> My mate just got full enhanced PIPs for both elements, thanks in some parts to my assistance with their claim. We still haven't heard back re or request for a mandatory reassessment following the decision to keep them in the WRAG following their last work capability assessment.
> 
> Does anyone know if having full enhanced PIPs awarded is likely to have any impact on the results of any reassessment or appeal? Surely there's a chance it could top things in our favour? This is their first application for PIPs, and they've never been on DLA.


Don't know about PIP but when I last got enhanced mobility and middle rate care for DLA they didn't bother re-assessing me for ESA they just put me straight in the support group. But that was then. I my PIP case they don't want my ESA work capability assessment to be used as medical evidence so who knows.


Still not heard about my PIP tribunal yet. I'ts nearly a year now since I received the PIP form to fill in.


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## passenger (Feb 28, 2017)

I don't think getting PIP in any form helps with ESA, as they found me fit to work 
and I get PIP stuff_it I was told that's a totally different benefit


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## equationgirl (Feb 28, 2017)

passenger said:


> I don't think getting PIP in any form helps with ESA, as they found me fit to work
> and I get PIP stuff_it I was told that's a totally different benefit


They are different,  but evidence for one can be useful for the other.


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## 8115 (Mar 3, 2017)

Hi, just popping in to ask a question for a friend.  Not ATOS, still bastards.

He has been claiming ESA/incapacity for quite a while but recently got a job which unfortunately he was let go from today.  I think this job lasted less than a month, it was supposed to be permanent.  Does anyone know anything about reclaiming ESA simply and easily.  I don't think he's in a UC area.  I don't know which group he was in.  Any information would be gratefully received.  Especially if "rapid reclaim" still exists and how to access it.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 3, 2017)

Rapid reclaim still exists, but probs just for JSA. The DWP will probably take the view that if they had been able to work, then they would have to go on JSA rather than ESA


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## 8115 (Mar 3, 2017)

Much as I hate to piss on their work bonfire, I think they'd probably have kept the job for longer than 3 weeks if they were fully able to work.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 3, 2017)

8115 said:


> Much as I hate to piss on their work bonfire, I think they'd probably have kept the job for longer than 3 weeks if they were fully able to work.


ah, was he sacked?


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## 8115 (Mar 3, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> ah, was he sacked?


Let go, presumably in probationary period.


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## Orang Utan (Mar 3, 2017)

8115 said:


> Let go, presumably in probationary period.


i don't know what 'let go' means then


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## equationgirl (Mar 4, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't know what 'let go' means then


It means the person has their employment terminated through no fault of their own.


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## Bakunin (Mar 9, 2017)

Question:

The ATOS website says that a claimant's recording kit has to be able to produce two identical recordings. It says nothing about using two identical tape recorders with identical tapes , both running at the same time.

Would it be a reasonable interpretation to say, if they refused to do the assessment and blamed me for not co-operating, that I was acting according to their own rules?


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 10, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Question:
> 
> The ATOS website says that a claimant's recording kit has to be able to produce two identical recordings. It says nothing about using two identical tape recorders with identical tapes , both running at the same time.
> 
> Would it be a reasonable interpretation to say, if they refused to do the assessment and blamed me for not co-operating, that I was acting according to their own rules?



Given that they have been perfectly willing to accept dual tape recorders - either one deck or two separate decks - previously, then the stipulation only applies to identical recordings. Your interpretation is entirely reasonable. I recorded my own "assessment" on two separate (different model, same function) cassette recorders, and they didn't bat an eyelid.


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## Ergo Proxy (Mar 11, 2017)

Why is this thread so over burdened with overtly audio recording their assessments?

All it does is cause a point of friction/attrition for people with mental health to obsess about and it also detracts from the fact that when you have to write your appeal;

nobody gives 2 fucks about I told the ESA Assessor X, Y or Z - it proves jack n shit!

All that matters is when you write your appeal you say; I qualify for ESA because I meet Descriptor A, B, C with X points or Special Rule.


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## green.tea (Mar 11, 2017)

.


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## WouldBe (Mar 11, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Question:
> 
> The ATOS website says that a claimant's recording kit has to be able to produce two identical recordings. It says nothing about using two identical tape recorders with identical tapes , both running at the same time.
> 
> Would it be a reasonable interpretation to say, if they refused to do the assessment and blamed me for not co-operating, that I was acting according to their own rules?


Yes I did this. Assessor had no problems with me using 2 tape recorders. Different story as far as DWP are concerned. They claimed I'd not asked permission to do it and recorded the assessment secretly.


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## WouldBe (Mar 11, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> nobody gives 2 fucks about I told the ESA Assessor X, Y or Z - it proves jack n shit!


It proves to the tribunal that ATOS and the DWP are a lying bunch of cunts and could also be grounds for further legal action against them.


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## Bakunin (Mar 11, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Yes I did this. Assessor had no problems with me using 2 tape recorders. Different story as far as DWP are concerned. They claimed I'd not asked permission to do it and recorded the assessment secretly.



That wouldn't play well for the DWP in front of a tribunal. At best it would look like they hadn't read the paperwork, at worst like they were lying.

Something for me to consider when I email them on Monday requesting a home visit (which they'll almost certainly refuse regardless of my anxiety/Asperger's/ bipolar) and tell them I'll be there with two tape recorders.


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## equationgirl (Mar 11, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Why is this thread so over burdened with overtly audio recording their assessments?
> 
> All it does is cause a point of friction/attrition for people with mental health to obsess about and it also detracts from the fact that when you have to write your appeal;
> 
> ...


If you're not going to be helpful please don't post on this thread. It's here to support those going through the process, and if you read it you will see that there is a history of the DWP accusing claimants of telling lies. Therefore,  claimants are taking reasonable steps to field such accusations.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Mar 11, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Why is this thread so over burdened with overtly audio recording their assessments?
> 
> All it does is cause a point of friction/attrition for people with mental health to obsess about and it also detracts from the fact that when you have to write your appeal;
> 
> ...



Balls.
I was able to provide the tribunal transcripts of relevant information that I gave my assessor, that he wholly-omitted, changing the tenor of my claim in a way that didn't favour my case. Yes, I'd probably have won anyway, because the decision was obviously not observant of the decision-makers' criteria, but the tribunal did use my transcripts to pass on "guidance" to the DWP regarding the need for their contractors to *accurately* summarise what they were told by people being assessed.


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## ViolentPanda (Mar 11, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> If you're not going to be helpful please don't post on this thread. It's here to support those going through the process, and if you read it you will see that there is a history of the DWP accusing claimants of telling lies. Therefore,  claimants are taking reasonable steps to field such accusations.



Perhaps Ergo Proxy lives in an alternate reality where ATOS and Maximus's assessors are for the most part fair and decent people who aren't at all motivated by giving shitty service so that they can cram in as many assessments as possible.  Unfortunately, most of us live in a world where if *we* claim that an assessor has misrepresented or elided what we've said, we need to be able to prove that what we told them with regard to how we meet various criteria, is not what ended up on the form.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (Mar 11, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps Ergo Proxy lives in an alternate reality where ATOS and Maximus's assessors are for the most part fair and decent people who aren't at all motivated by giving shitty service so that they can cram in as many assessments as possible.  Unfortunately, most of us live in a world where if *we* claim that an assessor has misrepresented or elided what we've said, we need to be able to prove that what we told them with regard to how we meet various criteria, is not what ended up on the form.



Thank you for telling me what my views are and expressing them so vivaciously!

My actual view is I will fail every WCA with Nil Points - no ifs no buts! I will then be awarded Nil points at Mandatory Reconsideration - no ifs no buts! Out of all my appeals for ESA only 1 has gotten as far as being listed to be heard by a Tribunal. Still haven't had to attend a tribunal as I tend to win them on pre-screening for stupidity by the DWP Appeals Officer associated with the TS.

Whilst I don't like nor think this is a good thing 2 very good Welfare Rights persons told me that's just the way it is. They also taught me how to win ESA and DLA appeals.

I'm 2 out of 2 myself and 6 out of 6 with their help - non of it involving audio recordings - all though I might have 3 ESA covert ones! Their submissions and therefore mine all focus on *WHY* I qualify for the benefit and not a lot else.



equationgirl said:


> If you're not going to be helpful please don't post on this thread. It's here to support those going through the process, and if you read it you will see that there is a history of the DWP accusing claimants of telling lies. Therefore,  claimants are taking reasonable steps to field such accusations.



Apologies if trying to present a view point that is not yours offends you so much! If I have any more alternate views would it be acceptable for me to PM you with them for acceptance?


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 11, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Thank you for telling me what my views are and expressing them so vivaciously!
> 
> My actual view is I will fail every WCA with Nil Points - no ifs no buts! I will then be awarded Nil points at Mandatory Reconsideration - no ifs no buts! Out of all my appeals for ESA only 1 has gotten as far as being listed to be heard by a Tribunal. Still haven't had to attend a tribunal as I tend to win them on pre-screening for stupidity by the DWP Appeals Officer associated with the TS.
> 
> ...


Please do not PM me.

I'm not offended by what you said, I do however not agree that recordings are not necessary.  Each claimant's situation is different, there is no advice that will universally for all.

Have you read even part of this thread?


----------



## Ergo Proxy (Mar 13, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> If you're not going to be helpful please don't post on this thread.



May be take your own advice! Its the ultimate Oxymoron!

I've already given my 3rd ESA experience to this thread and how I've approached it!

It's only a couple of pages back so if you'd managed ..........

Whilst I'm a complete and utter.....

Due to my mental health I don't do telephones,but my mental health services use 1 telephone call  then discharge responsibility!

ESA is an easy win vs getting help via the NHS!


----------



## equationgirl (Mar 15, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> May be take your own advice! Its the ultimate Oxymoron!
> 
> I've already given my 3rd ESA experience to this thread and how I've approached it!
> 
> ...


It's not fair to say that ESA is an easy win - unfortunately there are a number of people who have posted on this thread whose experiences say otherwise. 

Your experiences with ESA are useful to know about but there is no universal strategy that will work every time for every claimant. It's great that it worked for you but there are no guarantees it will work for everyone.

And for the record no-one has called you any names that I can see.


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 20, 2017)

This week I'm tackling my PIP form.  I've already been granted some extra time.  The last few weeks I've been undecided about whether I can face applying for PIP (been on DLA, lifetime award), but I've been persuaded I'm entitled to this, and am justified in applying.  It's bloody hard filling it in, but I've finally made a start.  Haven't got much in the way of supporting evidence, cos I've been pretty much left to get on with it on my own the last few years.  Little NHS input (cuts, blah, blah).  I've got the Benefits and Work guide to filling out the PIP form (it's 90 pages long  ), so I'm trying to take on board the advice in that.  It's already been impacting on my health having to do this.  Any solidarity appreciated.


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## equationgirl (Mar 20, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> This week I'm tackling my PIP form.  I've already been granted some extra time.  The last few weeks I've been undecided about whether I can face applying for PIP (been on DLA, lifetime award), but I've been persuaded I'm entitled to this, and am justified in applying.  It's bloody hard filling it in, but I've finally made a start.  Haven't got much in the way of supporting evidence, cos I've been pretty much left to get on with it on my own the last few years.  Little NHS input (cuts, blah, blah).  I've got the Benefits and Work guide to filling out the PIP form (it's 90 pages long  ), so I'm trying to take on board the advice in that.  It's already been impacting on my health having to do this.  Any solidarity appreciated.


If you're on medication go through the side effects and underline any that appears more than twice. Especially if things like fatigue, headaches, nausea, vomiting affect you. All of these may affect concentration, ability to do usual tasks, travelling on public transport, sleeping etc

Remember it's about how you are on your worst day.


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## Jackobi (Mar 21, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> This week I'm tackling my PIP form...Any solidarity appreciated.



There is some detailed guidance for each question on the Citizens Advice website:

Help filling in your PIP claim form - Citizens Advice


----------



## chainsawjob (Mar 21, 2017)

Thanks for the advice equationgirl, and thanks for the link Jackobi, I'll have a look.


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## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks for the advice equationgirl, and thanks for the link Jackobi, I'll have a look.


You're welcome,  pm if there's anything I can do.


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## friendofdorothy (Mar 21, 2017)

good luck chainsawjob


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## Bakunin (Apr 1, 2017)

Terrific.

Had medical on the 21st. Today I got a letter dated the 25th giving me 0 points on absolutely everything. At 3pm I see my GP about pain in my hands to be told he's almost certain it's osteo-arthritis.


----------



## chainsawjob (Apr 1, 2017)

Sorry to hear that Bakunin, on both counts.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 1, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Terrific.
> 
> Had medical on the 21st. Today I got a letter dated the 25th giving me 0 points on absolutely everything. At 3pm I see my GP about pain in my hands to be told he's almost certain it's osteo-arthritis.



Jesus fuck.  Mandatory reconsideration and then appeal if necessary, sorry to hear this.


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## equationgirl (Apr 2, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Terrific.
> 
> Had medical on the 21st. Today I got a letter dated the 25th giving me 0 points on absolutely everything. At 3pm I see my GP about pain in my hands to be told he's almost certain it's osteo-arthritis.


Not good to hear that, Bakunin. 

Mandatory reconsideration then appeal?


----------



## Libertad (Apr 2, 2017)

Could I ask for a bit of help here please? I've a friend whose just been awarded 0 points at his WCA. He has long term mental health problems including anxiety and agoraphobia and now has to sign on for JSA. 
I've told him that he needs to contact CAB, in the absence of there being any local benefits advice, and that he needs to apply for a mandatory reconsideration and then appeal. I've promised him some links but I'm so completely brain faded atm that I can't seem to get anything together. 

This is not laziness on my part it's just that I need to give him some sort of lifeline but find myself incapable of wading through Google results. Has anyone got any links to hand?


----------



## Jackobi (Apr 2, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Has anyone got any links to hand?



How to apply for a mandatory reconsideration:
Challenging an ESA decision - Citizens Advice

How to make an appeal if necessary:
Appealing against a DWP benefit decision - Citizens Advice

Applying for a 13 week extended period of sickness when claiming JSA:
Benefits for people looking for work - Citizens Advice

If your friend chooses the JSA extended period of sickness route, he should declare himself fit for work (perhaps negotiating some limitations on his work capability) then give it 2-3 weeks before starting the extended period.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 2, 2017)

Thanks Jackobi that's very much appreciated.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 7, 2017)

Got a letter from the tribunal service the other day dated Apr 1st thanking me for the CD of the ATOS assessment and the phonecall requesting the assessment be recorded which they have passed to the judge. Judge has asked if a typed (transcript) copy is available. They already have it and have from day fucking 1 

Perhaps it's some kind of sick Aprils fool.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 8, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Got a letter from the tribunal service the other day dated Apr 1st thanking me for the CD of the ATOS assessment and the phonecall requesting the assessment be recorded which they have passed to the judge. Judge has asked if a typed (transcript) copy is available. They already have it and have from day fucking 1
> 
> Perhaps it's some kind of sick Aprils fool.


It's incredibly frustrating but point out that it's already in pack of stuff sent to them. You can always send another copy because you are nice and helpful


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 9, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> It's incredibly frustrating but point out that it's already in pack of stuff sent to them. You can always send another copy because you are nice and helpful


I'm sick and tired of doing professionals jobs for them and sorting out their cockups. 

To make matters worse I've just received a form to renew my ESA. I just feel like scrawling across it "Fuck off harassing me." and sending it back.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 9, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Could I ask for a bit of help here please? I've a friend whose just been awarded 0 points at his WCA. He has long term mental health problems including anxiety and agoraphobia and now has to sign on for JSA.
> I've told him that he needs to contact CAB, in the absence of there being any local benefits advice, and that he needs to apply for a mandatory reconsideration and then appeal. I've promised him some links but I'm so completely brain faded atm that I can't seem to get anything together.
> 
> This is not laziness on my part it's just that I need to give him some sort of lifeline but find myself incapable of wading through Google results. Has anyone got any links to hand?



this thread from a week or two back may help.  friend i started the thread for found rethink's helpline good.

the exact rules may depend on whether your friend lives somewhere that universal clusterfuck has gone live


----------



## Libertad (Apr 9, 2017)

Thanks Puddy_Tat. That does help, I'll pass the info on.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 10, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Thanks Puddy_Tat. That does help, I'll pass the info on.



It's also probably worth, if he's getting housing benefit and / or council tax benefit (or whatever it's called locally) him advising council of a change of circumstances, that he's putting in for reconsideration, but if this doesn't come off, then he wishes to continue his HB claim on nil income while it's being sorted out.

This way, at least (if DWP still say no) he won't end up with his current HB claim being terminated at whatever date ESA ends, and having to make a new claim if and when he starts claiming JSA, and having an uphill struggle to claim backdating for the time between. 

I'm also a bit fuzzy about whether any form of 'hardship payment' (less than JSA / ESA but something) is payable in these circumstances.  I found something about hardship payments being payable (in some circumstances) if you get sanctioned, but couldn't find anything specific to getting a 0 points.

At one time the unemployment benefit office (as then was) would tell you that you might be eligible for a hardship payment, but i think the current DWP regime won't...


----------



## Bakunin (Apr 16, 2017)

Got a CAB appointment to do my mandatory reconsideration on the 21st. Got a copy of the ATOS assessment as well. It would be twice as long if it included all the things he was told and didn't include in it. I'm not happy about having had my medical history assessed by a paramedic, either, given its complexity. Nor was I pleased, seeing as they know I'm an Aspie, at their calling me at about 9:30 with no warning as saying they had a cancellation so could I get there as soon as possible. No, I couldn't and it was made abundantly clear to them that this sort of thing isn't something that should be done to people with Asperger's.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2017)

Got my ESA renewal form today.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Apr 16, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Got my ESA renewal form today.


On a sunday?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 16, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> On a sunday?



Arrived yesterday, opened it today.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Apr 16, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Arrived yesterday, opened it today.


Arh I see.  Not a nice envelope to open at any time.  Hope it all goes well for you.  x


----------



## xsunnysuex (Apr 16, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> On a sunday?


How long has it been since your last one?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2017)

Best of luck Bakunin and ViolentPanda happy to lend a hand if needed


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 17, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> How long has it been since your last one?


 3 years.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 20, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Got my ESA renewal form today.


best of luck x


----------



## chainsawjob (Apr 20, 2017)

Yes, good luck WouldBe, ViolentPanda and Bakunin, and anyone else dealing with this at the moment.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 24, 2017)

Still not heard about my PIP tribunal yet my sister who had her PIP assessment 2 months after mine has got a tribunal date for 2 weeks time.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 24, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Still not heard about my PIP tribunal yet my sister who had her PIP assessment 2 months after mine has got a tribunal date for 2 weeks time.


Is it worth emailing or calling them for an update?


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 27, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Is it worth emailing or calling them for an update?


Phoned them yesterday they are still waiting for the judge to set the date. It's been 1 year and 2 days since the DWP received my completed form.


----------



## Libertad (Apr 27, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Phoned them yesterday they are still waiting for the judge to set the date. It's been 1 year and 2 days since the DWP received my completed form.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 27, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Phoned them yesterday they are still waiting for the judge to set the date. It's been 1 year and 2 days since the DWP received my completed form.


SOunds like a convenient excuse to me.


----------



## WouldBe (Apr 30, 2017)

My sister has just received an ESA renewal form to fill in less than 18 months after her last one. 

What the fuck are the DWP playing at?


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 30, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> My sister has just received an ESA renewal form to fill in less than 18 months after her last one.
> 
> What the fuck are the DWP playing at?


Bullying and harassment. Except they are not playing.


----------



## WouldBe (May 3, 2017)

Phoned DWP yesterday to ask for an extension to allow me to fill in my ESA50 form. I was told They don't do them. I just need to fill in the box on the form to explain why it's late and jobs a good one. Received a letter this morning to say they had not received form back yet (not due until the 9th) and that my benefits may be stopped if they don't get it back by then.  cunts 

Just as well I recorded the phone call. How do I bring a prosecution for a breach of the disability discrimination act if they stop my benefits?


----------



## equationgirl (May 3, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Phoned DWP yesterday to ask for an extension to allow me to fill in my ESA50 form. I was told They don't do them. I just need to fill in the box on the form to explain why it's late and jobs a good one. Received a letter this morning to say they had not received form back yet (not due until the 9th) and that my benefits may be stopped if they don't get it back by then.  cunts
> 
> Just as well I recorded the phone call. How do I bring a prosecution for a breach of the disability discrimination act if they stop my benefits?


You would need to find a lawyer, benefitsandwork website might be able to help. Someone took them to court recently and won, it was in the BBC website.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 5, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Received a letter this morning to say they had not received form back yet (not due until the 9th) and that my benefits may be stopped if they don't get it back by then.  cunts



Standard automated computer generated letter to remind you to fill it in and send it back within time limits! Been part of legislation and process since the start of ESA. There's things to get upset about but this?

Why do you need an extension?


----------



## chainsawjob (May 5, 2017)

Is it worth ringing again and asking a different person about the extension WouldBe?  It's worrying that they just say fill in the reason on the form.  Can you get advice (Benefits & Work, CAB?) on whether what they told you was correct?  I got my PIP deadline extended twice (2 weeks, then another 5 days), and was amazed they seemed ok about it, just on my word (that my health had prevented me filling in the form), didn't have any more concrete reason than that, or have to prove anything.  You'd think ESA should be the same.

Horrible getting worrying letters though, but I think they do send them out as standard.  I got one with the original date on even though an extension had been agreed.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 5, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Standard automated computer generated letter to remind you to fill it in and send it back within time limits! Been part of legislation and process since the start of ESA. There's things to get upset about but this?
> 
> Why do you need an extension?


 Stop being such an unsupportive twat on this thread please.

All ESA letters are upsetting when you are unwell and depend on benefits. Yes we know they are computer generated, but know all, why is the computer generating them so frequently, against all govt guidelines?


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 5, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Stop being such an unsupportive twat on this thread please.
> 
> All ESA letters are upsetting when you are unwell and depend on benefits. Yes we know they are computer generated, but know all, why is the computer generating them so frequently, against all govt guidelines?



What? Seriously WHAT!

Fuck you fuck this thread! This isn't about helping people its about your own self important bullshit!

Telling somebody not to be upset because it happens to all of us on benefits which you are not!

You're not on benefits let a lone ESA are you? 

Since I am and you are not FUCK YOU!


----------



## Libertad (May 5, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> What? Seriously WHAT!
> 
> Fuck you fuck this thread! This isn't about helping people its about your own self important bullshit!
> 
> ...



Out of order pal. Have a word with yourself.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 5, 2017)

Libertad said:


> Out of order pal. Have a word with yourself.



Why?


----------



## existentialist (May 6, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> What? Seriously WHAT!
> 
> Fuck you fuck this thread! This isn't about helping people its about your own self important bullshit!
> 
> ...


So, fuck all of us and "fuck this thread"?

That doesn't leave many reasons for you to legitimately be here. So why don't YOU fuck off, and a find a thread (or a site) more in line with your precious sensibilities?


----------



## WouldBe (May 6, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Standard automated computer generated letter to remind you to fill it in and send it back within time limits! Been part of legislation and process since the start of ESA. There's things to get upset about but this?
> 
> Why do you need an extension?


Because I suffer from memory loss and it takes me ages to dig out all the information needed to be able to fill the form in as I can't remember what all my problems are let alone dates they were diagnosed.


----------



## WouldBe (May 6, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Is it worth ringing again and asking a different person about the extension WouldBe?  It's worrying that they just say fill in the reason on the form.  Can you get advice (Benefits & Work, CAB?) on whether what they told you was correct?  I got my PIP deadline extended twice (2 weeks, then another 5 days), and was amazed they seemed ok about it, just on my word (that my health had prevented me filling in the form), didn't have any more concrete reason than that, or have to prove anything.  You'd think ESA should be the same.
> 
> Horrible getting worrying letters though, but I think they do send them out as standard.  I got one with the original date on even though an extension had been agreed.


I've filled in the basics and sent the form back recorded delivery. I've stated several times on the form that it doesn't give a full view on my problems as they haven't given me enough time to fill the form in. It's really annoying as I got a 2 week extension for my PIP form with no problems. I've told them they will get supporting medical evidence as soon as I can manage it.

What makes their attitude even more shitty is if you have cancer you're supposed to get part of the form filled in by your oncologist. You'd be lucky to get an appointment with in the 4 week deadline let alone get in filled in by then. (possibly doesn't apply to me)


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> What? Seriously WHAT!
> 
> Fuck you fuck this thread! This isn't about helping people its about your own self important bullshit!
> 
> ...



Fuck you too, you sententious bag of wind.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've filled in the basics and sent the form back recorded delivery. I've stated several times on the form that it doesn't give a full view on my problems as they haven't given me enough time to fill the form in. It's really annoying as I got a 2 week extension for my PIP form with no problems. I've told them they will get supporting medical evidence as soon as I can manage it.
> 
> What makes their attitude even more shitty is if you have cancer you're supposed to get part of the form filled in by your oncologist. You'd be lucky to get an appointment with in the 4 week deadline let alone get in filled in by then. (possibly doesn't apply to me)



I got a reminder letter today - addressed to my late wife AGAIN, although I've told them on THREE separate occasions that she's passed on!  - so just to be annoying, I'll be phoning them on Monday to say "what fucking ESA renewal form, and why was the letter addressed to my late wife, seeing as I informed you last November, and then in February and March that she had died?".


----------



## geminisnake (May 6, 2017)

They really are incompetent cnuts   (((VP)))


----------



## equationgirl (May 6, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Standard automated computer generated letter to remind you to fill it in and send it back within time limits! Been part of legislation and process since the start of ESA. There's things to get upset about but this?
> 
> Why do you need an extension?


Doesn't mean that people aren't stressed out when it arrives. 

This is a thread for support.


----------



## equationgirl (May 6, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I got a reminder letter today - addressed to my late wife AGAIN, although I've told them on THREE separate occasions that she's passed on!  - so just to be annoying, I'll be phoning them on Monday to say "what fucking ESA renewal form, and why was the letter addressed to my late wife, seeing as I informed you last November, and then in February and March that she had died?".


I'M so sorry they're such a bunch of fucking cockwombles VP.


----------



## WouldBe (May 7, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I got a reminder letter today - addressed to my late wife AGAIN, although I've told them on THREE separate occasions that she's passed on!  - so just to be annoying, I'll be phoning them on Monday to say "what fucking ESA renewal form, and why was the letter addressed to my late wife, seeing as I informed you last November, and then in February and March that she had died?".


Send a snotty reply back and tell them if they wan't to know the current status of Ann to get a fucking psychic to fill the form in.


----------



## WouldBe (May 9, 2017)

Looks like the DoJ are turning into a bunch of cockwombles as well. My sister went for her PIP tribunal yesterday and it was cancelled at the last minute as she hadn't sent in copies of all her medical records. 


On googling the return address for my ESA50 it appears that Crapimus have taken over the assessment centers from the TOSSers. I've demanded a home visit as I'm currently on laxatives following the problems caused by my PIP face2face with ATOS and said I won't be held responsible for any mess created if they don't agree to a home visit. 

Anyone had any experience with crapimus?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 9, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Looks like the DoJ are turning into a bunch of cockwombles as well. My sister went for her PIP tribunal yesterday and it was cancelled at the last minute as she hadn't sent in copies of all her medical records.
> 
> 
> On googling the return address for my ESA50 it appears that Crapimus have taken over the assessment centers from the TOSSers. I've demanded a home visit as I'm currently on laxatives following the problems caused by my PIP face2face with ATOS and said I won't be held responsible for any mess created if they don't agree to a home visit.
> ...



Yep. They're pretty much interchangeable with Atos.


----------



## equationgirl (May 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep. They're pretty much interchangeable with Atos.


So megashit then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> So megashit then?



Yep.


----------



## equationgirl (May 11, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yep.


Fuckers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 11, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Fuckers.



Yeah. 
They did my PIP assessment - the one where the "disability analyst" (as he termed himself) did resistance tests on my limbs that took him 3 minutes in total.  My *consultant* physiotherapist took 40 minutes to do the same tests, and reckoned anyone taking 3 minutes was either incompetent or mendacious.  We eventually had to go through the "Mandatory Reconsideration" and appeal stages, because what Maximus provided the DWP with was:
a) partially-false.
b) not inclusive of a lot of information I'd given the HCP.
c) had totally ignored my hearing impairment "because he didn't need a hearing aid in the assessment" (because it was quiet, and I could read the HCP's lips!).

The Appeals Tribunal threw out the DWP's case and gave me a four year award.  You shouldn't have to work so hard to get what you're due, though.


----------



## equationgirl (May 12, 2017)

Liked for the win, ViolentPanda not the process


----------



## Bakunin (May 17, 2017)

Can anyone tell me how this is legal?

DWP has 80% targets for refusing benefit reconsiderations  | Disability Rights UK


----------



## Who PhD (May 17, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Can anyone tell me how this is legal?
> 
> DWP has 80% targets for refusing benefit reconsiderations  | Disability Rights UK


I imagine that they would say the individual cases would be seen fairly and there on an individual basis that 80% claim has no bearing and of course the government can just make whatever they like legal.

Is it fair? Like fuck


----------



## robert dennis (May 18, 2017)

no dont have any idea about that


----------



## WouldBe (May 18, 2017)

I've got to go to the post office this afternoon to post more info to my PIP tribunal and my medical info to the ESA dept.


----------



## iona (May 19, 2017)

Has this PIP change been mentioned anywhere already? (Is there a separate PIP thread anywhere or is this just the general benefits & medical assessments thread now? I always get confused between the UK politics and benefit & housing forums)

People with mental health conditions can still get enhanced PIP mobility component says DWP | Disability Rights UK

I only found out about it yesterday. Just about to apply for PIP myself too


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 19, 2017)

Bakunin said:


> Can anyone tell me how this is legal?
> 
> DWP has 80% targets for refusing benefit reconsiderations  | Disability Rights UK



It's pointless, given that if you're refused a recon, you just go to appeal.  Looks like a way of scaring people off - a significant minority of people shit themselves at the idea of a tribunal, and just give up.  Hey presto! Result for the DWP.


----------



## Gramsci (May 19, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> There is some detailed guidance for each question on the Citizens Advice website:
> 
> Help filling in your PIP claim form - Citizens Advice



I know someone with a long term health condition. It's incurable but they are stable with medication. They are in work. They think they may be eligible for PIP. Is it worth there applying? Or would this cause them to much stress? I'm also not clear how much money they would get. Is it worth it? Reading posts here sounds like they put people through the mill.

What I'm asking is what are the pros and cons of applying.


----------



## Celt (May 19, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I know someone with a long term health condition. It's incurable but they are stable with medication. They are in work. They think they may be eligible for PIP. Is it worth there applying? Or would this cause them to much stress? I'm also not clear how much money they would get. Is it worth it? Reading posts here sounds like they put people through the mill.
> 
> What I'm asking is what are the pros and cons of applying.



Without knowing more I would say if you are wondering whether to apply give it a go.  Health conditions can be expensive for all sorts of reasons. To get an idea I would read the desciptors the DWP live by.

Be ready to have to convince Atos et al at some point,

This thread is really for people going through benefit, including PIP and ESA, type scrutiny.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 21, 2017)

Gramsci said:


> I know someone with a long term health condition. It's incurable but they are stable with medication. They are in work. They think they may be eligible for PIP. Is it worth there applying? Or would this cause them to much stress? I'm also not clear how much money they would get. Is it worth it? Reading posts here sounds like they put people through the mill.
> 
> What I'm asking is what are the pros and cons of applying.



Yes, it's worth applying if they're incurring extra costs.  It's a bastard to apply for, but if their condition means extra spending on transport and/or care, then they may qualify.


----------



## WouldBe (May 28, 2017)

I got *3* letters from the DWP yesterday just in time for the bank holiday. 

Think I will wait until after Tuesday to open them as I've got to go for a colonoscopy that day as a result of bowel problems caused by ATOS PIP assessment back in July.


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2017)

Oh hell, WouldBe, their timing is quite something, isn't it?  

Good luck for Tuesday. Fingers crossed.


----------



## equationgirl (May 28, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I got *3* letters from the DWP yesterday just in time for the bank holiday.
> 
> Think I will wait until after Tuesday to open them as I've got to go for a colonoscopy that day as a result of bowel problems caused by ATOS PIP assessment back in July.


I Largely expect you to have three contradictory letters that will leave you more confused. 

So if you're leaving them for another few days it won't really matter


----------



## iona (May 28, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I Largely expect you to have three contradictory letters that will leave you more confused.
> 
> So if you're leaving them for another few days it won't really matter



That was my initial reaction too. I changed my name recently and a few weeks later I got three letters, all with the same date - one addressed to my old name & title, one to my old title and new initials and one to my new title and new name spelled out in full. All three letters were otherwise identical and just contained information about a slight change in the amount I get that I'd already been told about (but with the wrong date for the change, of course) 

ION I've just applied for PIP. Dreading the assessment bollocks, but I had a good meeting with my support worker earlier today to go over why I'm claiming and what points I could get and he's going to write me a supporting letter, help with the form and hopefully go with me to any appointments.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 28, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I Largely expect you to have three contradictory letters that will leave you more confused.
> 
> So if you're leaving them for another few days it won't really matter



Always worth leaving all things DWP/HMRC that may require time constrained responses or are probably nothing for a few extra days.....

Let that anxiety build to a crescendo.......

Do it! No don't just fucking open them!

It's a major release whichever way, then deal (or start working out how to deal) with it!

Better the Devil you know - than the one you're now being encouraged to obsess about!

I apologise for my brash and frank manner and expect the group attack to happen in 5... 4... 3... 2... 1...

These people have never received a DWP letter for your benefit but revel in your pain as so called helpers! 

All they do is re-affirm behaviour which will cause you massive issues so that they can pretend to help you!

1st one on the attack except VP who can post a recent DWP letter 

*GO!*


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2017)

Well, it's not as though much post is going to be happening before Tuesday, is it? And did you miss the bit about WouldBe having other health worries right now?



> These people have never received a DWP letter for your benefit but revel in your pain as so called helpers!
> 
> All they do is re-affirm behaviour which will cause you massive issues so that they can pretend to help you!



That's pretty vile. The impulse to put the DWP's scary letters aside until strong enough to open them is entirely understandable, and sometimes entirely sensible too.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 28, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Well, it's not as though much post is going to be happening before Tuesday, is it? And did you miss the bit about WouldBe having other health worries right now?
> 
> 
> 
> That's pretty vile. The impulse to put the DWP's scary letters aside until strong enough to open them is entirely understandable, and sometimes entirely sensible too.



No it is not!

They may be shite but they are not scary!

WouldBe will still be having those health issues but now they have lost X amount being able to deal with it days encouraged by your it doesn't matter days!

Sorry don't open any letters from the DWP until you are Ready! 

when you now have to engage with a stricter legal process in shorter time frames and are struggling to get to the food bank because your benefit was stopped. Keep not opening those letters!

Remember this vile shit I've posted about how opening that letter is really beneficial to you!


----------



## Celyn (May 28, 2017)

Had WouldBe posted replies to those letters, say, yesterday evening, it would not speed up their delivery one little bit.


----------



## Ergo Proxy (May 28, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Had WouldBe posted replies to those letters, say, yesterday evening, it would not speed up their delivery one little bit.



WTF are you trying to grasp on to here?

the earlier the letter is opened the sooner you can ask for advice on its contents!

If this was any sort of support, advice or help board the answer to the question of:-

I have some letters from the DWP should be...

Open them now and we will try and help you!

I don't see that on this board.... more the opposite


----------



## iona (May 28, 2017)

Ergo Proxy no one is saying to just forget about it. It's a bank holiday weekend though - before Tuesday post won't be collected, jobcentre and citizens advice etc won't be answering phonecalls... If a poster decides to leave post unopened for a couple of days, at a time when there might not be much they could do anyway and while also dealing with other health problems, then that's their decision and they should be offered support & reassurance rather than told what an idiot they're being. 

And those envelopes can be fucking terrifying, ftr.


----------



## WouldBe (May 29, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> WTF are you trying to grasp on to here?
> 
> the earlier the letter is opened the sooner you can ask for advice on its contents!
> 
> ...


Is there any need to keep spouting your vile crap on this thread?

You know fuck all about my situation or anyone elses situation on here so what you would do is completely fucking irrelevant in this or other fucking situations.

Not that it's any of your fucking business but I'm at the stage where I'm
1 Waiting for an ESA assessment
2 Waiting for a PIP tribunal
So it will make fuck all difference whether I open them now or after the colonoscopy. If you can't be supportive on this thread instead of being a vile little shit I suggest you fuck off. 





I got round to opening them yesterday afternoon. 1 was to advise my new rate of ESA and the other 2 were to do with housing benefit.


----------



## equationgirl (May 29, 2017)

Ergo Proxy said:


> Always worth leaving all things DWP/HMRC that may require time constrained responses or are probably nothing for a few extra days.....
> 
> Let that anxiety build to a crescendo.......
> 
> ...


You have been repeatedly asked to remember that this is a support thread, not a platform for you and how right you and only you are all the time. 

Please leave this thread alone. People need support not your self-righteousness.


----------



## equationgirl (May 29, 2017)

Also, if letters arrive on a Saturday morning, when no official person is available to assist with questions, will leaving their opening until the following Monday really make much difference? Especially as the official people will be contactable then? 

Many people find those letters cause excess worry and stress - managing it would seem to be a sensible approach all round.


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## FridgeMagnet (May 29, 2017)

I have put on a thread ban.


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## equationgirl (May 29, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I have put on a thread ban.


Thanks, much appreciated. The poster has been asked to cease and desist a few times but to no avail.


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## chainsawjob (May 30, 2017)

So I've got my PIP face to face appointment through and it's very soon!  I had to change it from the one they sent me which wasn't anywhere near where I live and meant my friend wouldn't have been able to come with me.  And the one they've changed it to is days away!!

A big favour to ask, did someone on this thread have dual recording equipment that they'd be willing to lend, it was a while ago but I think I remember someone offering?  (If it's possible to arrange it in time that is). Thanks.  (I thought they would provide the recording equipment, but they said that was the case with DLA, but it's been changed for PIP).

It's been less than four weeks since I sent my form in, so they've got their skates on with this.  My request for an on paper assessment fell on deaf ears


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## chainsawjob (May 30, 2017)

Ah, just read back on this thread that two separate tape recorders can be used. 

So now to see whether any of the shonky old tape recorders I've got will actually record.


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## WouldBe (May 30, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> So I've got my PIP face to face appointment through and it's very soon!  I had to change it from the one they sent me which wasn't anywhere near where I live and meant my friend wouldn't have been able to come with me.  And the one they've changed it to is days away!!
> 
> A big favour to ask, did someone on this thread have dual recording equipment that they'd be willing to lend, it was a while ago but I think I remember someone offering?  (If it's possible to arrange it in time that is). Thanks.  (I thought they would provide the recording equipment, but they said that was the case with DLA, but it's been changed for PIP).
> 
> It's been less than four weeks since I sent my form in, so they've got their skates on with this.  My request for an on paper assessment fell on deaf ears


Good luck but son't be suprised if you get 0 points.


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## chainsawjob (May 30, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Good luck but son't be suprised if you get 0 points.



Thanks, no I won't be surprised, I think they're routinely giving 0 points from what I've read.



chainsawjob said:


> Ah, just read back on this thread that two separate tape recorders can be used.
> 
> So now to see whether any of the shonky old tape recorders I've got will actually record.



They don't


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## iona (May 30, 2017)

Just started filling my PIP form in. Feels like a waste cramming all those painstakingly thorough answers with the exact wording they use in the points criteria into the little boxes, when I know they'll just ignore it and award zero points based whatever lies their assessor comes up with


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## chainsawjob (May 30, 2017)

I know iona, the process of filling it in is quite soul-destroying when you suspect it won't be assessed fairly anyway.


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## iona (May 30, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> I know iona, the process of filling it in is quite soul-destroying when you suspect it won't be assessed fairly anyway.



They lost my last ESA50 completely and just did my assessment without it (the second one that is, first ESA50 never turned up - eventually worked out it had gone to the wrong country after they tried booking my assessment in Edinburgh based on an address from 3 or 4 years earlier...) 

The assessment before that was surprisingly alright though; they referred back to the form throughout, only asked questions when my answers weren't enough and even offered to get me a taxi home after! So they can manage to act like human beings when they want to. Just gonna keep my fingers crossed for another apt like that, and if I don't get it at least my thoroughness can make their decision look ridiculous at tribunal.


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## iona (May 31, 2017)

Halfway through the form, it's just occurred to me that fitting three lines of writing into every one (8mm) ruled line might make it slightly harder to get a legible photocopy before I post it off


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## equationgirl (May 31, 2017)

iona said:


> Halfway through the form, it's just occurred to me that fitting three lines of writing into every one (8mm) ruled line might make it slightly harder to get a legible photocopy before I post it off


No harm in adding extra blank pages at the back so you can write fuller answers to the questions, especially if you have complex things to explain to them...


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## Celyn (May 31, 2017)

If you're already halfway through it, you're kind of stuck with hoping that a wee bit of enlargement re. photocopying will be OK, and you can sort of take a different approach to  next half?  

I don't know, really, but the mere fact of being able to say "ah, now, it happens that I DO have a photocopy" can be useful.

Fingers crossed for you.


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## iona (May 31, 2017)

I've been saving the "additional information" space for a later question. I did think about asking staff for a sheet of paper, but ime those tend to unstaple themselves and vanish mysteriously even when the rest of the form doesn't get lost.


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## Celyn (May 31, 2017)

iona said:


> Halfway through the form, it's just occurred to me that fitting three lines of writing into every one (8mm) ruled line might make it slightly harder to get a legible photocopy before I post it off


Or, well not "or" as an alternative, more as an additional thing, these crushed lines that you are slightly concerned about - if you have time, write them out again in larger writing, for yourself so that you can confidently say" well, I'm sorry if the photocopy is small but I do have a copy of what I actually wrote".

Ach, if you have time, repeat the things wot you haz wrote even on a blank sheet or two, which you then attach to the whole thing, explaining whatever:

"this is a repeat of my response to page 4271, question 176, sub question 298, section c (iii) subsection whatever, as I worried that my handwriting might be too small and might be inconvenient to read.

And I would really hate to cause you charming lot any inconvenience at all, obviously,
love & kisses.
Iona."


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## Celyn (May 31, 2017)

iona said:


> I've been saving the "additional information" space for a later question. I did think about asking staff for a sheet of paper, but ime those tend to unstaple themselves and vanish mysteriously even when the rest of the form doesn't get lost.


Hmm, ok does sound complicated, then. But IF you can't do the "many extra bits of paper" thing, you still have the knowledge that you will have taken a photocopy of what was sent and when you meet them you can read to them the tiny bits that they claim to be unable to read.


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## Celyn (May 31, 2017)

Can buy a whole load of paper from Tesco/Asda or similar for approx. £2.50. But that's no good if it's a choice between paper and food, I suppose.


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## chainsawjob (May 31, 2017)

I put all my answers on separate sheets, and hardly used the boxes on the form. Yes it's a worry they'll lose them, but I couldn't fit it all on the form by a long way.

My assessment is Friday, my friend (who I changed the appointment so she could come with me, checked when she was available and everything) now can't come. I feel fairly doomed, it's not helping my head atm.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 1, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> I feel fairly doomed, it's not helping my head atm.



I am the master of understatement, this has screwed me right up, I'm in a bit of a state (still understatement). Very upset that my friend who I arranged to come with me, had forgotten about an appointment she has herself when I asked her which dates she couldn't make, honest mistake, but hard nonetheless when I'd rearranged it to ensure she could come with me. 

During my therapy appointment yesterday my therapist suggested I ring them there and then and explain the person I need to accompany me can't come and ask for a reschedule.  I did.  It says on Atos's website they'll only rearrange once, so I wasn't hopeful.   And the answer was no. (My therapist was surprised at their inflexibility, I wasn't).  They said they could note the reason I couldn't come, but would have to then send my file back to the DWP for them to make a decision on whether my reason for not being able to attend was permitted.  And then presumably I would be either offered a further appointment or my benefit stopped due to 'failure to attend'.  I thought the latter was more likely so decided to keep the appointment even if it meant going by myself.

Today I've finally faced getting my copy of the form out to look at, and I've categorically stated I need someone to accompany me.  So fuck it, I ain't going alone.  If I turn up by myself it's gonna be instant fail. I'm gonna ring them today and tell them it's not possible for me to attend because I can't arrange support to come with me.   It's a big risk because it might mean they instantly stop my DLA which I can no way afford atm.  But then I can presumably appeal?

Shit I've just googled this, it doesn't look like you can appeal against a decision that your reason for failing to attend was not good enough.  So it would be start from scratch with a new application. 



> The DWP are very strict about this, if you don't attend then your file will be returned, they should ask if you have Good Reason for not attending, but if they don't accept those reasons then your claim will be closed and you will have to start from scratch.
> 
> If you are being transferred from DLA then this will be closed as well although you will get four weeks run on.


 (from here FAILURE TO ATTEND PIP ASSESSMENT )

The person above had also rearranged once previously because they'd been booked an appointment nowhere near where they lived, same as me.  They do this on fucking purpose.  To test whether you can get there.

Shit.

I asked my friend if she'd be prepared to rearrange her dentist appointment to come with me, but she'd just received her ESA medical date through and can't face any more stress atm. Fair enough. I've had an offer from someone else to accompany me, but she can't make Friday either due to a hospital appointment.

This is an inhumane system   Wholly designed to make you give up (which I nearly have done at several points during this process).

Think I'll still ring and cancel it, it's a gamble but there's a slim chance they might give me another appointment.  Think I'll write a back up letter quoting what I said on my form about needing support to attend and also arguing for a paper-based assessment rather than face to face (well I had to ask  ).  

Wish me luck.


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## fishfinger (Jun 1, 2017)

All the best chainsawjob 
They really are a shitty bunch


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## iona (Jun 1, 2017)

I hope it gets sorted chainsawjob. Are there any services, either locally or online, that you could ask for help? Shouldn't be the case but sometimes official communication from Professionals with Headed Paper gets a better response, ime. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you anyway 

I was going to have a massive whinge on the mental health thread but decided not to, so I'm just going to dump it here now I've gone to the trouble of writing it. I'm not asking for advice or owt, I don't fucking know really


Spoiler: Load of stupid confused moaning 



I'm not sure if I'm having a minor wobble or a bad week or if I'm spiraling downwards out of control. I'm trying to claim PIP at the moment (completely my own decision, although I do in theory have support - my meltdowns tend to be quiet and invisible so it's not immediately obvious that I could be entitled to claim) and it's a proper headfuck. Focusing on all the shit I can't do as well/quickly/often as most people or even at all, trying to give detailed enough answers that I'll actually get some help without exaggerating or feeling like a fraud...

My support worker is trying to get me moved out of the hostel I'm in now. I can see why - they have their targets and boxes to tick, and my giving a few clean drug tests and not constantly causing trouble or having the police or paramedics at the door marks me as an ideal candidate with my "low support needs". I can fake it for a short time, I even feel confident and positive enough to make plans on my good days, but the effort tires me out and I crash. I fall out of my routine, I miss appointments, I can't readjust my plans so I just don't do anything at all - don't wash, don't eat, don't take my meds properly, don't go out except to walk the dog down quiet streets at night... But that's not visible. And I can manage some stuff some of the time, so it's not like I need 24-hour intensive support, but by the time I do need help it's too late to ask and start making plans. I can't even imagine what effective, appropriate support would look like.

I'm scared to acknowledge that need, that I can't even manage simple, basic shit "safely, to an acceptable standard, as often as needed and in a reasonable time"  I'm scared to keep doing what little I can to keep myself afloat, because then surely I don't really need more help? I'm scared to give in and lay all this crap out for people to see, because if I stop kicking and no one's there to save me I might just sink for good.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 1, 2017)

Thanks iona, I hadn't thought of that, I could ask my therapist to write, good idea.  She saw what a state I was in when I made the phone call the other day.



Spoiler: reply to spoilered bit



I absolutely get what you've written.  The process of writing down what I struggle with day to day was soul-destroying to say the least.  Having to detail all the _failure_ to function like most people do.  And most of it being invisible to anyone looking in from the outside.  I can put on a pretty convincing show of functioning vaguely normally.  What people don't see, like with you, is the days I don't wash, dress, eat properly, don't get household stuff done, get out of bed, manage to speak to anyone or even make eye contact, the stuff I dip out of cos I can't face it, the time I spend hiding.  And it's fucking scary and depressing to lay all this out on a form, it does mental/emotional damage.  To lay all this out to be picked over by unsympathetic, uncaring strangers whose priority seems to be to prove I'm lying.  And then the feeling like a fraud, cos sometimes I do function to a sufficient degree.  I hit a very ill patch while I was doing this.

I'm sorry you're facing a possible move.  I hope your support worker will properly take into account your needs, and will hear some of what you've written here about how you would struggle with that.

Good luck with the rest of the form.  I had online support from a bunch of friends when I was filling mine in (elsewhere), and I really did give them a blow by blow account of what question I was on/ how much I'd completed, and the days I was ready to give up and couldn't face doing it any more.  It really helped keep me going til I got to the end of it, took me a couple of weeks (plus the two weeks it took me before I could face getting started).  Helped to have a rant about it all, to people who understand and have been through it themselves.  Plus my therapist gave me support, I'd convinced myself I didn't 'deserve' it until she gave her view on it.  Without the support and validation I don't think I'd have stuck with it.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 1, 2017)

I've rung ATOS to say I won't be attending, and put it in writing as a back up.  They said they thought the DWP'd likely accept my reason as valid, although they can't promise obv.  Some hope, fingerscrossed.


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## Celyn (Jun 1, 2017)

Oh, all fingers and toes crossed. If ATOS thinks DWP will be OK, I'd think it will be, ATOS not being known for excessive optimism. 

What a damn hassle, though.    But for now you get to breathe for a few days /weeks.


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## WouldBe (Jun 1, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> It says on Atos's website they'll only rearrange once, so I wasn't hopeful.


When I had my DLA to PIP assessment with ATOS, they cancelled the first appointment. I had to cancel the second appointment and I managed to turn up for the third. I'm sure it said somewhere in one of the letters that you were allowed to reschedule twice and if you didn't attend the third appointment then you may be sanctioned.

Not sure if I'd be able to find the info again as I've got a memory like a sieve and have difficulty concentrating but I'll have a look for you.


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## WouldBe (Jun 1, 2017)

iona said:


> my meltdowns tend to be quiet and invisible so it's not immediately obvious that I could be entitled to claim) and it's a proper headfuck.


It's not nice but make them visible. Have a meltdown at the assessment and throw a tantrum. Don't try to hide it just let it all out and try to record it even if you do it secretly. 

Good luck.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 1, 2017)

Thanks WouldBe, don't worry too much looking for it. The ATOS faq says you can change it once, and that's what they told me on the phone. Maybe it's got more stringent, or maybe it's down to the reason you cancel.

Thanks fishfinger and Celyn


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## equationgirl (Jun 1, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> I am the master of understatement, this has screwed me right up, I'm in a bit of a state (still understatement). Very upset that my friend who I arranged to come with me, had forgotten about an appointment she has herself when I asked her which dates she couldn't make, honest mistake, but hard nonetheless when I'd rearranged it to ensure she could come with me.
> 
> During my therapy appointment yesterday my therapist suggested I ring them there and then and explain the person I need to accompany me can't come and ask for a reschedule.  I did.  It says on Atos's website they'll only rearrange once, so I wasn't hopeful.   And the answer was no. (My therapist was surprised at their inflexibility, I wasn't).  They said they could note the reason I couldn't come, but would have to then send my file back to the DWP for them to make a decision on whether my reason for not being able to attend was permitted.  And then presumably I would be either offered a further appointment or my benefit stopped due to 'failure to attend'.  I thought the latter was more likely so decided to keep the appointment even if it meant going by myself.
> 
> ...


Where in the UK is your appointment? If you're near me in Glasgow I can come with you if it's the afternoon.

This is such a shitty fucking process, it is designed to hurt people not help them . the cockwombling fucktards.

Eta: I see you have decided not to go. Hope you feel a bit better now.


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## iona (Jun 1, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks iona, I hadn't thought of that, I could ask my therapist to write, good idea.  She saw what a state I was in when I made the phone call the other day.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Therapist letter sounds good. If there are any services who'd be familiar with the benefits system that you could contact either nearby or online etc then it might be a good idea to get in touch with them too, even just so they're in the background if you need them to help with stuff later on. No stress if that sounds like too much though, it's not essential  

And yeah, the other stuff you wrote. That exactly. The whole "deserving/undeserving" "scroungers" bollocks is so insidious, even if you utterly reject that crap yourself it still somehow sneaks into your head and sits on your shoulder nagging at you. 

One of the things I'm finding makes this even harder is the effect PIP will have on other entitlements. At 25, LHA means I'll only be entitled to the "shared" rate of housing benefit for the next 10 years. I'm exempt from that coz I've been in a homeless hostel, but no one can tell me how long that applies for and I'm terrified I'll get dumped somewhere then kicked out when my hb drops however many months or years later and have to go through the whole streets > hostel > move on cycle again. The daily living rate of PIP would mean I'm exempt the whole time I'm claiming it, and I wouldn't necessarily lose it if I managed to start working a bit. 
Same with other stuff - I just found out I'd be entitled to a bus pass if I score 8 points on "verbal communication" (or "moving around" but my mobility isn't an issue). That means I "need communication support to be able to express or understand basic verbal information" "safely, to an acceptable standard, as often as I need and in a reasonable time". I consider myself fairly articulate, but when I actually go through that descriptor word by word and look at the examples and guidance online I _could_ qualify. I often avoid any type of verbal communication completely. I don't hear things right, or at all, and other people have similar issues with the way I speak. I forget things. I need things explained or repeated, although I often just guess or give up entirely. I'd have these issues much more often if I didn't just avoid the situation in the first place by avoiding people. But that descriptor could apply to me. So great, I'll get a bus pass and start going out and doing loads of things that help me get a bit better at verbal communication. Then what? As soon as I get at all better, they'll take it off me. I either have to stay this fucked forever, or magic myself into holding down a job that'll pay for all the help I've come to rely on. 



WouldBe said:


> It's not nice but make them visible. Have a meltdown at the assessment and throw a tantrum. Don't try to hide it just let it all out and try to record it even if you do it secretly.
> 
> Good luck.



Oh I will, at the assessment. Not intentionally but I find them incredibly stressful and I don't have enough self control not to. 

Not that it made any difference at my last ESA one - according to the report I "looked well" "appeared well kempt" "did not appear to be trembling" "did not make any rocking movements" "was able to sit still during the interview" "coped well at interview" and various aspects of my speech and concentration were "normal"  No mention of the shaking, the rocking and hand-flapping (autistic "stimming"), the fidgeting, the trouble I had answering anything, the fact I was self-harming throughout the entire assessment to the point that my hands were covered in blood and the nurse shouted at me multiple times to "stop it!"  I'm hoping to have someone with me this time, and I'm living inside now, so I will at least be in a better position to appeal if they come out with a similar load of lies this time. And I'll definitely try and record it, even if secretly, as you say


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## bmd (Jun 1, 2017)

One thing I think would be very helpful is to have all the answers that you've sent them, with you at the interview. The person interviewing me was very skilled in Motivational Interviewing and kept asking me the same question and then repeating back to me parts of my answers in a polished up kinda way. If I did it again I would take my answers and just repeat them to the interviewer every time they asked me the same question.

They started off the interview asking me how I had got there. I asked him if the interview had started and he said no, just making conversation. 

PIP takes so much energy. So so much. That's why you need support. Not so much for your application but because it's a lot harder on your own. I couldn't be arsed with it in the end. I know I'm eligible, just cannot be doing with even being in that building, never mind speaking to an ATOS person.


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## iona (Jun 1, 2017)

bmd I was planning on taking both a list of the points descriptors and my answers (which copied from those) so I can just keep repeating their own words back at them 

Sorry to hear about your experiences with the cunts. Is there no way you could access enough support to get you through an assessment etc?


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## iona (Jun 2, 2017)

One more question down (well, two but one of them was just three ticks and a "N/A") 

Just three more to go, but one is the most relevant and one is the question that'll decide all of my mobility component points (anyone would think they leave this stuff 'til last to fuck us up  ) Gonna try and do them all tonight if I can, but at least get two done and then I can always do the last with my support worker when I go through it all with him in the afternoon.


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## Celyn (Jun 2, 2017)

Well, "like" for supportive thoughts for you doing all this rather than "like", but you'll know what I mean.  Generally I mean I hope it is not too bad and shit.

With everything and with your support worker, I do hope for a good result for you.


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## iona (Jun 2, 2017)

Yeah, I feel like I need to post to clarify the intention behind my "likes" sometimes but I don't think people ever assume they were for the shit bit of whatever was posted 

Ta Celyn


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## Celyn (Jun 2, 2017)

iona said:


> Yeah, I feel like I need to post to clarify the intention behind my "likes" sometimes but I don't think people ever assume they were for the shit bit of whatever was posted
> 
> Ta Celyn


Ta also, I've been going through the whole ESA thing, and a thing that someone else posted utterly describes it for me, you know - that bloody obviously, if can get to the whatsit office, then that is a "good day". And if can get to the damn office, be assessed only for that time in that day. And guess what - they never see the days when not able for anything. Oh I will shut up now and now rant and whine.


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## equationgirl (Jun 2, 2017)

Celyn said:


> Ta also, I've been going through the whole ESA thing, and a thing that someone else posted utterly describes it for me, you know - that bloody obviously, if can get to the whatsit office, then that is a "good day". And if can get to the damn office, be assessed only for that time in that day. And guess what - they never see the days when not able for anything. Oh I will shut up now and now rant and whine.


I Don't think it's whining at all - people have repeatedly posted that the stress of these things knocks them out for days or weeks after assessment. There's no question asking 'how long were you debilitated for after the assessment?' - perhaps there should be...


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## chainsawjob (Jun 2, 2017)

Absolutely Celyn, if it was one of the worst days I wouldn't be able to get there, or if I did, be able to get across what I needed to.  And it's the after-effects (and the preceding effects) of what it takes to get there.  None of this is seen. Edit: just seen equationgirl's post, I totally agree, it's not whining, totally valid. 

bmd the like was for the rest of your post not the bit about not being able to deal with PIP.   You're right it takes _so _much energy.  It has totally dominated my time and preoccupied my mind while it has been ongoing, especially these last few days.  

My kids are at home on half term, and I haven't been able to really 'be' (mentally/emotionally) with them since Tuesday because all my mental energy is spent on dealing with PIP, and the effect it's had on my health making me more withdrawn and isolating.  Crap for them, but at least my husband is out of work and at home    (Guilt, guilt, shame, comes with the territory).  Such relief when I decided I wasn't going to go to the assessment today.  And I'm back in the room... to a point.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 2, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Where in the UK is your appointment? If you're near me in Glasgow I can come with you if it's the afternoon.
> 
> This is such a shitty fucking process, it is designed to hurt people not help them . the cockwombling fucktards.
> 
> Eta: I see you have decided not to go. Hope you feel a bit better now.



Thanks so much for this offer equationgirl, that's so kind of you.  I'm down South, so no where near Glasgow unfortunately.

I've had another offer from a friend to come with me if I get another appointment, so hopefully one way or another I'll have someone.

iona glad you’re getting through the questions, yes I'm sure they do all they can to fuck us up, and make it as difficult as possible to score points, in the way they phrase and order the questions.  Good that you've got your support worker to go through it all with you.

I don't know what you have to do to _not_ appear 'normal' at a medical, the bar must be set pretty damn high 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





   Yes, and the signs of distress and agitation they conveniently fail to notice or record 

I've tried a local disability advice service in the past, but the person I saw wasn't very clued up. I've had online advice from the Benefits and Work forum, they've been really helpful over my recent ESA balls up, so I can go back to them if I need more advice.



iona said:


> And yeah, the other stuff you wrote. That exactly. The whole "deserving/undeserving" "scroungers" bollocks is so insidious, even if you utterly reject that crap yourself it still somehow sneaks into your head and sits on your shoulder nagging at you.



Yes it's impossible, however hard you try, not to be influenced by this stuff. And people are more isolated and dispersed these days, there’s not the services there used to be where you knew a lot of people with similar problems, I think this makes me feel less valid.



iona said:


> One of the things I'm finding makes this even harder is the effect PIP will have on other entitlements.



Absolutely.

And yes the whole thing of trying to work out if the descriptors apply, and the threat that if your symptoms improve in any way it'll all just be taken away as soon as you're getting on your feet.  It's harsh.  In the past things used to be a lot less harsh, more flexible, people were given a chance, not undermined for getting better.


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## equationgirl (Jun 2, 2017)

It absolutely should not be this hard. Having just done my postal vote for the election the first thing I checked was candidates' records on benefits issues, and chose accordingly. 

Any one of us could have to go through this process. People should be able to concentrate on getting better, not navigating a system set up to break them. 

Fuck, I hope the tories lose.


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## iona (Jun 2, 2017)

That cunt of a form is fucking done  Still waiting for a letter from my support worker, and need to add a photocopy of my deed poll because half my evidence is under a different name  but other than that it's all checked, photocopied AND scanned onto computer, and ready to post when I get my ESA next week so I can pay for recorded. Thank fucking fuck, now I can attempt to get back to my "normal" until the next round of interrogation.

Thank you to everyone who's listened to my ranting, and good luck to everyone waiting on ESA, PIP etc bollocks.


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## bmd (Jun 2, 2017)

iona said:


> bmd I was planning on taking both a list of the points descriptors and my answers (which copied from those) so I can just keep repeating their own words back at them
> 
> Sorry to hear about your experiences with the cunts. Is there no way you could access enough support to get you through an assessment etc?



I probably could now tbh. I just don't know if I could stop myself from vaulting across the desk and stabbing the interviewer repeatedly in the eyeballs with my specially sharpened pencil. It is my favourite ATOS fantasy.


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## bmd (Jun 2, 2017)

I've decided I'm going back on Olanzapine. I should probably let the local shop know so that they can stock up, take on a couple more staff etc. Olanzapine is actually an anagram of EAT MORE FOOD ALWAYS.

I'm going back on it because I am tired of self-medicating. It works but it's isolating and shit in other ways so it's time to get back on the horse. Well, off the Horse and back on the weird meds.


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## iona (Jun 2, 2017)

bmd said:


> I probably could now tbh. I just don't know if I could stop myself from vaulting across the desk and stabbing the interviewer repeatedly in the eyeballs with my specially sharpened pencil. It is my favourite ATOS fantasy.



Mine is usually a biro to the carotid  

(Liked your other post for the positivity of making decisions, not the tired and rubbish bits, if that makes sense)


----------



## bmd (Jun 3, 2017)

iona said:


> Mine is usually a biro to the carotid
> 
> (Liked your other post for the positivity of making decisions, not the tired and rubbish bits, if that makes sense)



Ah, the good ol' Biro. A design classic I believe.

I'm not going there with the 'likes' thing. I started to and then thought "I'm going to send myself crazy!" More crazy. Crazier. See?


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 3, 2017)

So, firstly I should say hi... Hi 

I didn't join up here for this thread, and in fact didn't know you had a dedicated thread/room for this stuff. Pretty chuffed about it though as I'm gonna need a shit load of help in the not too distant.

I've got an illness called systemic sclerosis with (now secondary, used to be primary) Raynauds and Gerds. It's all under the CREST umbrella of illnesses (CREST syndrome - Wikipedia) and as it's an auto immune disorder it quite literally knocks me for six for about 60% of my life.

Now I get ESA highest rate and highest rate of DLA (care component) and full award of LHA as I'm over the age threshold for that.

I know that PIP and universal credit assessments are gonna hit me soon. Even though after the gov said no more 'forever awards' would be given, and reassessed everyone using ATOS (just before PIP was intro'd), I was actually awarded the continuing award and have had no further assessments since. I do consider myself extremely fortunate in that respect.

Anyway yes, that's my life on shitty benefits that you're repeatedly told you don't deserve (even though I've paid a shitload of taxes as I've worked solid since being able to, from the age of 14 in fact). After becoming too ill to work, I did fight to get what I was entitled to. But now my illness has taken a throttling hold on me, I'm not sure I've got that fight still in me.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 3, 2017)

bmd said:


> I probably could now tbh. I just don't know if I could stop myself from vaulting across the desk and stabbing the interviewer repeatedly in the eyeballs with my specially sharpened pencil. It is my favourite ATOS fantasy.


If you did you'd still get awarded 0 points for being a danger to others.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 3, 2017)

Welcome to the thread gindygoo hope you stick around on Urban.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 3, 2017)

Hiya gindygoo


----------



## Orang Utan (Jun 3, 2017)

fingers crossed for thursday:


----------



## gindygoo (Jun 3, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Welcome to the thread gindygoo hope you stick around on Urban.


equationgirl  thank you, I think I might just do that.


----------



## bmd (Jun 3, 2017)

Hiya gindygoo 

Hope you find what you need here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 4, 2017)

bmd said:


> I probably could now tbh. I just don't know if I could stop myself from vaulting across the desk and stabbing the interviewer repeatedly in the eyeballs with my specially sharpened pencil. It is my favourite ATOS fantasy.





iona said:


> Mine is usually a biro to the carotid
> 
> (Liked your other post for the positivity of making decisions, not the tired and rubbish bits, if that makes sense)



You mangy pair of liberals!!!   

What's with these quick maimings and killings, eh?   The only way to treat these bottom-feeding "Healthcare Professionals" is to do everything slow and steady, savouring their screams, all the while telling them "that doesn't really hurt.  You're just making that up.  What you need is a proper job!".


----------



## bmd (Jun 4, 2017)

Where's the double-like button when you need it?


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## scifisam (Jun 4, 2017)

I'm struggling through my pip form at the moment (after being on DLA). I was only given ten days' notice to fill it in, have to get someone to write it for me and they've been busy a lot, plus I've been unable to get some evidence I need due to ongoing problems with the computers at my GP and main hospital, but I don't want to have to ask for an extension. Too two hours to do the food and medications questions today. It's so exhausting.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I'm struggling through my pip form at the moment (after being on DLA). I was only given ten days' notice to fill it in, have to get someone to write it for me and they've been busy a lot, plus I've been unable to get some evidence I need due to ongoing problems with the computers at my GP and main hospital, but I don't want to have to ask for an extension. Too two hours to do the food and medications questions today. It's so exhausting.


Sorry it's so shit scifisam.


----------



## bmd (Jun 5, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I'm struggling through my pip form at the moment (after being on DLA). I was only given ten days' notice to fill it in, have to get someone to write it for me and they've been busy a lot, plus I've been unable to get some evidence I need due to ongoing problems with the computers at my GP and main hospital, but I don't want to have to ask for an extension. Too two hours to do the food and medications questions today. It's so exhausting.



It's anxiety-inducing isn't it.  You will get there. You absolutely will. Thinking of you.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 5, 2017)

scifisam said:


> It's so exhausting.



It really is.  Very draining.  Good luck with it.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 9, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I'm struggling through my pip form at the moment (after being on DLA). I was only given ten days' notice to fill it in, have to get someone to write it for me and they've been busy a lot, plus I've been unable to get some evidence I need due to ongoing problems with the computers at my GP and main hospital, but I don't want to have to ask for an extension. Too two hours to do the food and medications questions today. It's so exhausting.


 hows it going? good luck x


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 10, 2017)

That's a new one on me. My sister has been told by DWP that she doesn't need to fill in an ESA50 form as she's currently seeing a psychiatrist and just to send in medical evidence. 



Just received another 3 shitty brown envelopes this morning and can't be arsed to open them just yet.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 10, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> hows it going? good luck x



Thank you for asking  We finally finished it on Thursday, photocopied it and sent it off registered post. Given that I had to get a lift to the post office and then help from the lovely staff there to sellotape the envelope down I hope it should be a fairly straightforward claim


----------



## bmd (Jun 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Thank you for asking  We finally finished it on Thursday, photocopied it and sent it off registered post. Given that I had to get a lift to the post office and then help from the lovely staff there to sellotape the envelope down I hope it should be a fairly straightforward claim



This is what the pip claims process reduces people to: a constant "how is my mobility affected by my illness and how do I evidence that?" stream of consciousness. 

Good luck!


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 10, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Thank you for asking  We finally finished it on Thursday, photocopied it and sent it off registered post. Given that I had to get a lift to the post office and then help from the lovely staff there to sellotape the envelope down I hope it should be a fairly straightforward claim


fingers crossed for you x


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 10, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Just received another 3 shitty brown envelopes this morning and can't be arsed to open them just yet.


The grlf was about to have kittens about a brown envelope a few weeks ago - So I ripped it open straight away as I usually do - it was just notication about the annual increase, phew!  Then again a few days ago she looked really scared about another brown envelope and it turned out it was just informing her they had forgotten to mention the £10 xmas bonus. Phew! She is still on high alert at the sight of every brown envelope.

I wish you strength to open yours. x


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 10, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> That's a new one on me. My sister has been told by DWP that she doesn't need to fill in an ESA50 form as she's currently seeing a psychiatrist and just to send in medical evidence.
> 
> 
> Just received another 3 shitty brown envelopes this morning and can't be arsed to open them just yet.


Another 3 letters??? More contradictory useless letters??

I Would be very wary of that advice - if she can get a form filled out, as much as possible if not complete, then I would do that. Especially if she has no written proof of the instruction from the DWP.

ViolentPanda have you heard of people being given advice to not send in the forms?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> The grlf was about to have kittens about a brown envelope a few weeks ago - So I ripped it open straight away as I usually do - it was just notication about the annual increase, phew!  Then again a few days ago she looked really scared about another brown envelope and it turned out it was just informing her they had forgotten to mention the £10 xmas bonus. Phew! She is still on high alert at the sight of every brown envelope.
> 
> I wish you strength to open yours. x



I had both of those over the last couple of weeks too. 

Brown envelope/brown underwear moments!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 10, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Another 3 letters??? More contradictory useless letters??
> 
> I Would be very wary of that advice - if she can get a form filled out, as much as possible if not complete, then I would do that. Especially if she has no written proof of the instruction from the DWP.
> 
> ViolentPanda have you heard of people being given advised to not send in the forms?



It does happen, but rarely - usually when you've got a condition that's unarguably degenerative.  If I were WouldBe 's sister, I'd phone up and ask for written confirmation.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 10, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> It does happen, but rarely - usually when you've got a condition that's unarguably degenerative.  If I were WouldBe 's sister, I'd phone up and ask for written confirmation.


Thanks, I just don't trust the buggers.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 11, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Another 3 letters??? More contradictory useless letters??


Appears to be a repeat of the 3 letters I had a couple of weeks ago. "Due to a change in your housing benefit we're altering your housing benefit".  



> I Would be very wary of that advice - if she can get a form filled out, as much as possible if not complete, then I would do that. Especially if she has no written proof of the instruction from the DWP.


 Just like me she always records phone conversations with the DWP and the advice came from a DWP manager as they are the only ones that can access her file.


----------



## nogojones (Jun 12, 2017)

Tomorrow I have to accompany someone to their ESA /ATOS assessment as they suffer from severe anxiety with depression and wouldn't be in a place to attend if they didn't have support. I believe they have asked for the interview to be recorded and ATOS (or whoever the new cunts are) informed them that they would contact them if this wasn't possible - They haven't contacted them to date.

What should we expect? what can I do and say during the interview? 

I was going to take notes and record the session regardless for my own note taking benefit.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 12, 2017)

nogojones said:


> Tomorrow I have to accompany someone to their ESA /ATOS assessment as they suffer from severe anxiety with depression and wouldn't be in a place to attend if they didn't have support. I believe they have asked for the interview to be recorded and ATOS (or whoever the new cunts are) informed them that they would contact them if this wasn't possible - They haven't contacted them to date.
> 
> What should we expect? what can I do and say during the interview?
> 
> I was going to take notes and record the session regardless for my own note taking benefit.


A shiny square quid says they'll "have no note of the request" and will press to continue the interview without recording equipment. So record the session covertly, and make notes blatantly. Then, if you need to, you can update the notes from the recording afterwards.

Because they're cunts.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 12, 2017)

nogojones said:


> Tomorrow I have to accompany someone to their ESA /ATOS assessment as they suffer from severe anxiety with depression and wouldn't be in a place to attend if they didn't have support. I believe they have asked for the interview to be recorded and ATOS (or whoever the new cunts are) informed them that they would contact them if this wasn't possible - They haven't contacted them to date.
> 
> What should we expect? what can I do and say during the interview?
> 
> I was going to take notes and record the session regardless for my own note taking benefit.


I accompanied my girlf. Expect them to be observing you from before you come in the door, we were met by the 'healthcare professional' where we had to sign in and then we had to sit in a waiting room (which really amplifies the anxiety) even though we were right on time. 

I was allowed to contribute, I'd fill in the gaps after the girf had said something like she would would say 'Yes I can do x' I'd add things like 'but you are often to ill to do x - you can't do it everyday' or 'I often need to do x for you'. I took all the paperwork and chipped in with things like 'we have a hospital letter about that' and insisted she accept all the copies of hospital appts and doctors letters. 

When ever something is discussed be sure to stress if this can't be done reliably and repeatedly. Stress 'on a good' and what a bad day is like. So often in talking about mental health we talk ourselves up, we like to be optimistic and positive - here you have to stress all the downs, all the negatives, no point in being optististic at all - tell them all the shit bits.

Be sure to point out the friend wouldn't have been able to attend without you. I pointed out that I had planned the least stressful bus journey to get her there - with the fewest changes, made sure she was up and dressed, led her out of the house, held her by the hand and that sort of thing. Spell out what you have done.

I tried to write notes but I found this difficult to do as well as listening/speaking. I found it quite upsetting seeing her so upset too, I offered to leave the room when she was asked about suicide - very distressing for her to answer and it was horrible to listen to.

She was asked innocent sounding questions eg one about smoking - but we had been warned that to answer she could 'roll her own' might translate in the Atos mind to something like 'is manually dexterous' Grlf was nervous as hell and shaking like a leaf so obviously incapable of rolling her own that day. I'd advised her to have some rolled ready as she was bound to need a smoke that day. There is no harm at all in the assessor seeing just how nervous and anxious your friend is. 

Wishing you and your friend all the best.


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## equationgirl (Jun 13, 2017)

nogojones said:


> Tomorrow I have to accompany someone to their ESA /ATOS assessment as they suffer from severe anxiety with depression and wouldn't be in a place to attend if they didn't have support. I believe they have asked for the interview to be recorded and ATOS (or whoever the new cunts are) informed them that they would contact them if this wasn't possible - They haven't contacted them to date.
> 
> What should we expect? what can I do and say during the interview?
> 
> I was going to take notes and record the session regardless for my own note taking benefit.


They may ask innocent sounding questions like 'did you get here OK?'. A typically British answer of 'fine, thanks' is anecdotally reported as being used as evidence the claimant can travel around by themselves with no issues. 

Do not be afraid to ask what actual health care experience they gave - are they a doctor, nurse, chiropodist, chiropractor? Do they have any mental health care experience? 

IF they query note taking you can always point out its to aid the claimant as they are concentrating on the interview and can't do both. 

You will also be observed after leaving the building. 

Best of luck, let us know how you get on.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> They may ask innocent sounding questions like 'did you get here OK?'. A typically British answer of 'fine, thanks' is anecdotally reported as being used as evidence the claimant can travel around by themselves with no issues.
> 
> Do not be afraid to ask what actual health care experience they gave - are they a doctor, nurse, chiropodist, chiropractor? Do they have any mental health care experience?
> 
> ...



Often, if you ask them what their healthcare experience is, they won't answer, or just spout some crap (as at my last PIP assessment) about being a "disability analyst".  I eventually found out that the guy making judgements about my cognitive problems and my deafness was a fucking physiotherapist.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Often, if you ask them what their healthcare experience is, they won't answer, or just spout some crap (as at my last PIP assessment) about being a "disability analyst".  I eventually found out that the guy making judgements about my cognitive problems and my deafness was a fucking physiotherapist.


FOR FUCKS SAKE. 

A Physiotherapist???? 

FOR FUCKS SAKE!!!!!!


----------



## existentialist (Jun 14, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Often, if you ask them what their healthcare experience is, they won't answer, or just spout some crap (as at my last PIP assessment) about being a "disability analyst".  I eventually found out that the guy making judgements about my cognitive problems and my deafness was a fucking physiotherapist.


I wonder if a good way to ask the question would be to ask who they are professionally registered with?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 14, 2017)

existentialist said:


> I wonder if a good way to ask the question would be to ask who they are professionally registered with?



That might work, especially if you work in "just so I know who to contact about disciplinary proceedings".


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## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2017)

I'M sure i' very said this before, but disability analyst my fucking arse.


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## fishfinger (Jun 14, 2017)

The person at ATOS who did my assessment was (seemingly) really kind and supportive. I was very anxious during the interview, shaking the whole time. I thought that I had managed to get my case across, and left the interview _slightly_ less nervous than at the start. It was only when I received the PIP rejection letter that I realised that I had been taken for a fool. The written statement bore very little resemblance to the interview. The assessor had lied repeatedly throughout it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> The person at ATOS who did my assessment was (seemingly) really kind and supportive. I was very anxious during the interview, shaking the whole time. I thought that I had managed to get my case across, and left the interview _slightly_ less nervous than at the start. It was only when I received the PIP rejection letter that I realised that I had been taken for a fool. The written statement bore very little resemblance to the interview. The assessor had lied repeatedly throughout it.


Are you going to ask for mandatory reconsideration? 

Sorry you were treated so poorly


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 14, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Are you going to ask for mandatory reconsideration?
> 
> Sorry you were treated so poorly


Had the mandatory reconsideration - I'm on to the appeal stage now. Panicking, as I haven't been able to get an appointment see my GP (for a letter to provide evidence), and CAB haven't got back to me yet.
The appeal application has to get there by 22nd. I am fucked


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Had the mandatory reconsideration - I'm on to the appeal stage now. Panicking, as I haven't been able to get an appointment see my GP (for a letter to provide evidence), and CAB haven't got back to me yet.
> The appeal application has to get there by 22nd. I am fucked


Have you had a gp letter done before by this gp? If so, could they update that one and leave a signed copy for you to pick up from reception? If you got it Monday then you could send it special delivery. 

Can you ask for an emergency appointment?


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 15, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Have you had a gp letter done before by this gp? If so, could they update that one and leave a signed copy for you to pick up from reception? If you got it Monday then you could send it special delivery.


Unfortunately not. I need to see a GP that knows me, not a locum. The earliest appointment I could get is for 23rd.


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## scifisam (Jun 15, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Unfortunately not. I need to see a GP that knows me, not a locum. The earliest appointment I could get is for 23rd.



Is it because your GP isn't available or because they're booked up? If the latter, maybe go in and say you'll wait as an emergency appointment until they have a few minutes for you? 

If you send it recorded or registered delivery by the deadline it will be counted. I'll chuck you the money for that if you need it. 

I had a similar problem in that I have recently changed GP so she's only seen me twice. Due to the recent IT hack she didn't even have access to my records last time I saw her. And when I requested my letters from my rheumatologist, because for no known reason they hadn't been sent to me, the most recent one was in error and about someone else who had a bad back, plantar fascitis and two small children. FFS. It had my name and NHS number but was not about me. Those are two of the diagnoses I actually lack!  So I might well have to appeal (eventually) due to these fuck ups. Doubt that would come through before my blue badge etc are due for renewal in September.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 15, 2017)

So after the 6 shitty brown envelopes I've had recently that made out my benefits weren't changing I check my bank account this morning to check the payment had gone in and it's ~£120 short  not sure f that's because they have finally realised my DLA has stopped (until my PIP tribunal) or whether they have just cocked things up as usual.


----------



## iona (Jun 15, 2017)

Fucksake WouldBe  whatever the reason turns out to be, I hope it's easily resolvable. 

Hope things go as well as possible for any other urbs going through form filling or assessments or appeals atm too. 

I received a "Thanks for sending us your 'how your disability affects you' form" text two days ago. Today I got a letter reminding me to send my form back coz I hadn't yet


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## scifisam (Jun 16, 2017)

Ffs Wouldbe, they're so shit 

I'm saying Ffs at myself too. They sent it back in the party because I'd forgotten to sign it.  I did tell them I'm forgetful! More evidence. Anyway, I have over a week to send it back and there's nothing stopping me adding extra info if I had any, so fishfinger maybe that could be a way to buy time!


----------



## Jackobi (Jun 16, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Had the mandatory reconsideration - I'm on to the appeal stage now. Panicking, as I haven't been able to get an appointment see my GP (for a letter to provide evidence), and CAB haven't got back to me yet.
> The appeal application has to get there by 22nd. I am fucked



Just get your SSCS1 form sent back as soon as you can, if necessary, contact Citizens Advice again to hurry them up. There is space on the form to explain why the appeal is submitted late if necessary, waiting for advice should be a good enough reason.  You can submit further evidence up to the date of the tribunal hearing. The tribunal service will give the DWP 28 days to respond to your appeal request so you have at least 28 days after HMCTS receive your form to submit further evidence .


----------



## fishfinger (Jun 17, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Is it because your GP isn't available or because they're booked up? If the latter, maybe go in and say you'll wait as an emergency appointment until they have a few minutes for you?
> 
> If you send it recorded or registered delivery by the deadline it will be counted. I'll chuck you the money for that if you need it.
> 
> I had a similar problem in that I have recently changed GP so she's only seen me twice. Due to the recent IT hack she didn't even have access to my records last time I saw her. And when I requested my letters from my rheumatologist, because for no known reason they hadn't been sent to me, the most recent one was in error and about someone else who had a bad back, plantar fascitis and two small children. FFS. It had my name and NHS number but was not about me. Those are two of the diagnoses I actually lack!  So I might well have to appeal (eventually) due to these fuck ups. Doubt that would come through before my blue badge etc are due for renewal in September.


Thanks for the kind offer of postage fees but I can afford that. Sorry to hear of the cock-up re: your medical letter.



Jackobi said:


> Just get your SSCS1 form sent back as soon as you can, if necessary, contact Citizens Advice again to hurry them up. There is space on the form to explain why the appeal is submitted late if necessary, waiting for advice should be a good enough reason.  You can submit further evidence up to the date of the tribunal hearing. The tribunal service will give the DWP 28 days to respond to your appeal request so you have at least 28 days after HMCTS receive your form to submit further evidence .


CAB have got back to me today, and I have an appointment on Wednesday morning. Hopefully, I'll be sending the appeal form after that.

Thanks again to all, and commiserations to those going through the process.


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## gindygoo (Jun 18, 2017)

Quick question for those 'in the know' - can the PIP assessor ask to look at your social media if you've got it set to private? Not that there'd be anything on it that shows anything but the truth - I worry about perceptions and know they're not averse to twisting facts to suit themselves.

I've not yet had the letter to go for a PIP assessment, but I know it's imminent 

Edit: typo


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## iona (Jun 18, 2017)

I've never heard of that and I can't see how they could.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2017)

The only thing I've heard of in relation to social media was an assessor caught making very unpleasant comments about a claimant on her Facebook page. She was found out and lost her job.


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## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2017)

iona said:


> I've never heard of that and I can't see how they could.


Suspect it would be a breach of privacy/data protection for them to do so.


----------



## BCBlues (Jun 19, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Suspect it would be a breach of privacy/data protection for them to do so.



Unless it was a fraud related issue maybe ??
Ain't sure what powers benefits depts have on such issues these days.

I used to work in HB and one of my colleagues used to bring local paper cuttings in (before the interweb) and check all the details, bingo winners, minor criminal offences and what address they used.
Can you imagine how easy it is for them to trawl through Facebook etc now to get info whether valid or not.

All I say is if you are on disability benefits of any kind be mindful of these potential intrusions. Yeah you might have had a great day with your grandkids but to those evil lot all it means is you must be super fit every day of your life and thus not entitled to your rightful benefits.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 19, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> I've rung ATOS to say I won't be attending, and put it in writing as a back up.  They said they thought the DWP'd likely accept my reason as valid, although they can't promise obv.





Celyn said:


> Oh, all fingers and toes crossed. If ATOS thinks DWP will be OK, I'd think it will be, ATOS not being known for excessive optimism.



Nope.  Claim closed for not attending. Balls.

I can still tell them more about the reason why I didn't attend and they'll look at their decision again.  I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get either of the letters I sent, or the information I passed on via ATOS, and just made the decision on the basis on me not showing, but with no background info as to why.  At least, that's the most optimistic way I can look at it.

If they hadn't given me the first appointment so far away from where I live I wouldn't be in this position


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Nope.  Claim closed for not attending. Balls.
> 
> I can still tell them more about the reason why I didn't attend and they'll look at their decision again.  I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get either of the letters I sent, or the information I passed on via ATOS, and just made the decision on the basis on me not showing, but with no background info as to why.  At least, that's the most optimistic way I can look at it.
> 
> If they hadn't given me the first appointment so far away from where I live I wouldn't be in this position


They really are wankers. 

ViolentPanda Jackobi do you have any advice on how best to proceed in this situation?


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 19, 2017)

Thanks equationgirl


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks equationgirl


I don't think we've seen this exact situation on the thread before, which is saying something. 

They are still massive wankers for doing this. Also potentially discriminatory on the grounds of mobility /disability. Not that that comes as a surprise to anyone.


----------



## Jackobi (Jun 20, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> They really are wankers.
> 
> ViolentPanda Jackobi do you have any advice on how best to proceed in this situation?


 chainsawjob


It's the usual mandatory reconsideration within one month of the date of the decision letter, and then an appeal to HMCTS for independent tribunal if necessary.

The mandatory reconsideration will be looked at by a DWP decision maker who will assess 'good reason' for missing the appointment. Although good reason is not particularly well defined, the decision maker's guidance explains in some detail:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473399/admp6.pdf


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks so much Jackobi, I'll have a read. At least it's not no appeal or MR in this situation as I first thought.


----------



## Pac man (Jun 20, 2017)

Also send all your "medical evidence" to the Decision Maker at the DWP (cant remember the ad) along with the reason you didnt attend. It has been known for the DM to make a paper evidenced based assessment (ask if he/she would kindly consider doing this) without the need to attend any face to face assessments, its worth a shot, it worked for me after ATOS tried to sabotage my face to face.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks Pac man, that's a good idea. A paper based assessment would be a marvellous relief (I _have_ asked, and given my reasons when I returned the form, and again when I wrote about not being able to attend the assessment), worth a shot as you say.

I'll have to sort this next week now as I'm busy for the next few days, I've got about another 3 weeks which is 4 weeks from the date of the letter, but thanks for the advice folks.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 20, 2017)

Thanks Jackobi Pac man help much appreciated


----------



## Who PhD (Jun 20, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks so much Jackobi, I'll have a read. At least it's not no appeal or MR in this situation as I first thought.


Maybe if possible a trip to the CAB?

A statement of the obvious of course, but they helped me immeasurably. I wouldn' have passed had it not been for them. No question.


----------



## BCBlues (Jun 20, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> .
> I wouldn't be surprised if they didn't get either of the letters I sent, or the information I passed on via ATOS



This bit chainsaw. I'm not sure if you've already been asked/ advised but it it is worth reiterating on here that when sending them any correspondence try and do it as "signed for " at the other end. Keep the receipt and you can track date time and person who signed for it (albeit a vague Kevin or Donna etc). It costs about £1.70 which I know when you are struggling is the difference between a bit of food on the table or starve but if you can afford it do it as they have a smug and horrendous record of not receiving things.

Bit of good advice from Who PhD above as well by the way.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 21, 2017)

The CAB do a fantastic job, but local offices depend on volunteers and some may be better than others, however worth a shot.


----------



## stuff_it (Jun 24, 2017)

Well my friend who has been on ESA for a while and had a second medical in November, with the first medical having run out some time before (like 18 months before) had his decision "revised" rather than them go to the appeal. Unfortunately they are only backdating him to when they made the decision to put him in WRAG (late January I think?), not even as far back as the medical in November, and certainly not as far back as when the last decision ran out.

He was hoping for a fair old bit of back pay, but will only be getting about £155.

Has anyone else had experience of getting more out of them in this sort of situation?


----------



## BCBlues (Jun 25, 2017)

stuff_it said:


> Well my friend who has been on ESA for a while and had a second medical in November, with the first medical having run out some time before (like 18 months before) had his decision "revised" rather than them go to the appeal. Unfortunately they are only backdating him to when they made the decision to put him in WRAG (late January I think?), not even as far back as the medical in November, and certainly not as far back as when the last decision ran out.
> 
> He was hoping for a fair old bit of back pay, but will only be getting about £155.
> 
> Has anyone else had experience of getting more out of them in this sort of situation?



I'm not sure but doesn't that decision itself ( to pay only from January) carry a right of appeal. It should say on the decision to revise letter your friend received.


----------



## WouldBe (Jun 27, 2017)

Had a letter from the Tribunal service this morning. Thought it might have been a date for the tribunal or better still a decision. Nope. Turns out to be copies of my med records that they received 6 weeks ago;


----------



## iona (Jun 27, 2017)

Just got a PIP letter. Thought it would be an appointment, but it says "We need some more information before we can progress your claim" - there's a page for me to fill in where it asks if I've ever been in hospital or residential care. Presumably it just means medical kind of residential care?

Why would I be getting sent this now? I imagine they need this information from everybody... Can't remember exactly what I was asked when I phoned up to start my claim, but surely it would/should have been asked then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2017)

iona said:


> Just got a PIP letter. Thought it would be an appointment, but it says "We need some more information before we can progress your claim" - there's a page for me to fill in where it asks if I've ever been in hospital or residential care. Presumably it just means medical kind of residential care?
> 
> Why would I be getting sent this now? I imagine they need this information from everybody... Can't remember exactly what I was asked when I phoned up to start my claim, but surely it would/should have been asked then?



It should have been, if you filled in the form over the phone, and yes, they mean medical-type residential care, not whether you've been living in a hostel.


----------



## iona (Jun 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> It should have been, if you filled in the form over the phone, and yes, they mean medical-type residential care, not whether you've been living in a hostel.



I did the initial application over the phone (is there a form for that too? I didn't know that...). Filled in the "how your disability affects you" form on paper and posted it in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2017)

iona said:


> I did the initial application over the phone (is there a form for that too? I didn't know that...). Filled in the "how your disability affects you" form on paper and posted it in.



You can still get a full paper form, but they prefer phone-filling.


----------



## wayward bob (Jun 29, 2017)

hello thread  sorry if this is garbled, i'm not sure what's relevant info and what isn't. also excuse patchy info, i can ask more qs and check details.

my bezzer is in a bad way atm. she has longstanding (since childhood) mental health issues, that express mostly in ocd and anxiety. she's a lone parent, with kid1 age 14 and kid2 age 5. kid1 has ongoing medical and mental health issues - entailing various appointments and time off from school. bezzer's mh stuff is exacerbated with her direct neighbours doing heavy building work at all hours of the day, and needing the pipes in her house replacing because they're made of lead - so upcoming extensive works making her home feel unsafe.

she's on a "looking for work" benefit atm, with all the required jobsearching. she's followed up every opportunity and either they've fizzled out for some reason out of her control or she's been simply unable to manage. she was signed off by her doctor for a bit but (and here's where i'm unhelpfully fuzzy) i think that only lasts so long so she's back on the jobsearch now.

i know nothing of the system but i think pip might be relevant? i did ask but she's terrified by piles of official paperwork and the assessments etc. but equally she's overwhelmed and beaten down by the jobsearch stuff.

does anyone have any advice or options? realistically would it be better to find a way of working the job search system or would she stand any chance of getting some peace-of-mind and ongoing financial support through pip?


----------



## iona (Jun 29, 2017)

wayward bob sounds like she's on JSA at the moment? I'm only speaking from personal experience here (sure one of our resident experts will be along shortly to give you better advice) but switching to ESA might be better for her. 

I've just found this - 



			
				Disability Rights UK website said:
			
		

> If you fall ill, you may choose to stay on JSA for up to two weeks: you must fill in a form to declare that you are unfit for work and for how long. You may only do this twice a year.
> 
> If your illness is expected to last for more than two weeks, but no more than 13 weeks, you may choose to stay on JSA for a continuous period of up to 13 weeks. If you are still sick after 13 weeks, you cannot stay on JSA but need to claim Employment and Support Allowance instead; for more information, see our _Factsheet F31 - Employment and Support Allowance_.



(They have loads of other advice linked to here which might be more relevant if she's in a Universal Credit area)


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2017)

wayward bob said:


> hello thread  sorry if this is garbled, i'm not sure what's relevant info and what isn't. also excuse patchy info, i can ask more qs and check details.
> 
> my bezzer is in a bad way atm. she has longstanding (since childhood) mental health issues, that express mostly in ocd and anxiety. she's a lone parent, with kid1 age 14 and kid2 age 5. kid1 has ongoing medical and mental health issues - entailing various appointments and time off from school. bezzer's mh stuff is exacerbated with her direct neighbours doing heavy building work at all hours of the day, and needing the pipes in her house replacing because they're made of lead - so upcoming extensive works making her home feel unsafe.
> 
> ...



If she's not already claiming it, then like iona say, she should claim ESA.  She should also submit a claim for PIP on spec.

The forms for both are bastards, full of traps for the unwary, so she'll need professional help to fill the forms in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 29, 2017)

Just had a bout of Brown Envelope Fever - submitted my ESA renewal about 5 weeks ago, and have been awaiting news ever since.

Fortunately, they've renewed me sight-unseen (i.e. just on the papers) in the support group, so no medical to attend.  Oh well, that's hopefully another year, possibly more before I get hassled about ESA again, thank fuck!


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 29, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Just had a bout of Brown Envelope Fever - submitted my ESA renewal about 5 weeks ago, and have been awaiting news ever since.
> 
> Fortunately, they've renewed me sight-unseen (i.e. just on the papers) in the support group, so no medical to attend.  Oh well, that's hopefully another year, possibly more before I get hassled about ESA again, thank fuck!


That's great, nice to have a bit of good news after all those brown envelopes


----------



## wayward bob (Jun 29, 2017)

iona ViolentPanda thanks both


----------



## wayward bob (Jun 29, 2017)

yes it's jsa. so esa next


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 30, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> That's great, nice to have a bit of good news after all those brown envelopes



I did have a vague hope that they'd just renew on the papers, given that my health had provably gone downhill, and for once they seem to have paid attention to the evidence.  It might have had something to do with it all being from consultants, none from the GP.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 30, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> I did have a vague hope that they'd just renew on the papers, given that my health had provably gone downhill, and for once they seem to have paid attention to the evidence.  It might have had something to do with it all being from consultants, none from the GP.


It's nice to see sense has prevailed for once


----------



## felixthecat (Jun 30, 2017)

I'm about to enter the pip and esa nightmare with the daughter. She's not on any benefits atm and none of us have ever claimed before so I'm going to need some help for her.


----------



## Pac man (Jun 30, 2017)

I cant believe i had my esa extended without an assessment. i rang them last week to ask why i havent recieved my brown envelope my 3 year award is up and im due to be reassessed and they told me, to my absolute suprise, its been extended by 2 more years..i havent even submitted my new psyche reports..i guess the last one was sufficient..its all about paper evidence..gather as much paper evidence as you can (get a file going) i have some from a shrink, psyche nurse my Dr, a neurologist and opthalmologist..i think about 6 letters plus a 15 page essay about my years of torture and abuse in "care" arrrrggghhhh..im done worrying what these cunts think anymore, i was so stressed but will never worry what they think again. Time to live my life without fear and improve my quality of life without thinking im doing wrong.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 1, 2017)

felixthecat said:


> I'm about to enter the pip and esa nightmare with the daughter. She's not on any benefits atm and none of us have ever claimed before so I'm going to need some help for her.


Don't worry about fitting answers in the small boxes, if needs be using additional sheets of paper for each question. 

Also, we're here to help - feel free to start a pm if you want to discuss something private or medical. No question too small.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 1, 2017)

1 year ago today I had my PIP face to face assessment and I've still not had a fucking decision .


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 1, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> 1 year ago today I had my PIP face to face assessment and I've still not had a fucking decision .


Seriously??? No news from them at all??


----------



## scifisam (Jul 1, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> 1 year ago today I had my PIP face to face assessment and I've still not had a fucking decision .



A year? That's ridiculous!


----------



## nogojones (Jul 1, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> They may ask innocent sounding questions like 'did you get here OK?'. A typically British answer of 'fine, thanks' is anecdotally reported as being used as evidence the claimant can travel around by themselves with no issues.
> 
> Do not be afraid to ask what actual health care experience they gave - are they a doctor, nurse, chiropodist, chiropractor? Do they have any mental health care experience?
> 
> ...


 
It was pretty stressful and a really shitty experience all round. My friend was visibly shaking from the stress and their mental health had deterioated in the week leading up to the assessment as they were so worried. 
The assessment itself had a negative impact on their mental health. How any medical professional can take part in these assessments in good faith is beyond belief. They should all be struck off/ disbarred / hung from lamposts.

However, I've just heard the results and they've got in the support group. Though the letter they recieved hasn't got a time limit on it. 

Any idea of how long they'll leave it for another ESA50 and another re-assessment?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 1, 2017)

nogojones said:


> It was pretty stressful and a really shitty experience all round. My friend was visibly shaking from the stress and their mental health had deterioated in the week leading up to the assessment as they were so worried.
> The assessment itself had a negative impact on their mental health. How any medical professional can take part in these assessments in good faith is beyond belief. They should all be struck off/ disbarred / hung from lamposts.
> 
> However, I've just heard the results and they've got in the support group. Though the letter they recieved hasn't got a time limit on it.
> ...


Hurrah for your friend getting into the support group, that's great news  

I Am no expert, and it seems to vary a lot. The letter should say how long they are in the group before reassessment, I would think at least a year.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 2, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Seriously??? No news from them at all??





scifisam said:


> A year? That's ridiculous!


Still waiting to hear from the tribunal. Apparently you can't rush the judge they will decide when or if a tribunal will take place.


----------



## Jackobi (Jul 2, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Still waiting to hear from the tribunal. Apparently you can't rush the judge they will decide when or if a tribunal will take place.



You could write to your local MP who might put some pressure on HMCTS to speed up the decision.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 7, 2017)

I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA. 

I need to send a reply before 25th to explain why I've not told them about what they have done. 

Do we have to start telling them each time they send us a shitty fucking letter just in case?


----------



## Libertad (Jul 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA.
> 
> I need to send a reply before 25th to explain why I've not told them about what they have done.
> 
> Do we have to start telling them each time they send us a shitty fucking letter just in case?



Jesus fuck


----------



## Jackobi (Jul 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA.



Did your DLA stopping result in an overpayment of benefits?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA.
> 
> I need to send a reply before 25th to explain why I've not told them about what they have done.
> 
> Do we have to start telling them each time they send us a shitty fucking letter just in case?


For fucks sake.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA.
> 
> I need to send a reply before 25th to explain why I've not told them about what they have done.
> 
> Do we have to start telling them each time they send us a shitty fucking letter just in case?


????????????? They can impose penalties as well as stopping benefits?


----------



## iona (Jul 8, 2017)

Thought today's white envelope with a "Centre for Health and Disability Assessments" return address might be an appointment for my PIP assessment. Nope, it's an ESA50 because they've decided to reassess that at the same time


----------



## iona (Jul 8, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> ????????????? They can impose penalties as well as stopping benefits?



Yeah, they did it to me when I started work a few years ago and they reckoned it was my not telling them soon enough that had caused them to overpay me. You can appeal but I had nothing to back mine up - didn't even find out about it until I went back on ESA several years later and they started deducting money for the overpayment and penalty 

Fingers crossed this will get sorted quickly for WouldBe. Not like it's unclear who's to blame for this particular fuck up, ffs!


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I've received another shitty brown envelope this morning. The DWP and trying to impose a £50 civil penalty on me for failing to notify the DWP that the DWP have stopped my DLA.
> 
> I need to send a reply before 25th to explain why I've not told them about what they have done.
> 
> Do we have to start telling them each time they send us a shitty fucking letter just in case?


Kafka just walked away shaking his head in disbelief...


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 8, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> Did your DLA stopping result in an overpayment of benefits?


Yes because there s a severe disability premium added to the ESA which they didn't bother stopping at the same time.

When the DWP start paying benefit claimants DWP wages only then should we start doing their fucking jobs for them. Until then they should fuck off and do the jobs they are paid to do and do them fucking correctly. 

What's that recent law about encouraging people to commit suicide?


----------



## BCBlues (Jul 8, 2017)

If it is the Severe Disability Premium WouldBe I would appeal against the decision to recover the overpayment because as a Claimant it is unreasonable to expect you to understand how Premiums work and also because the Benefits are paid by the same Dept surely there should have been some in house notification at the time.
Because of the delay of this action by the DWP then surely it is a DWP error ( that you could not be expected to understand) and is therefore non recoverable, in which case they should waive that ridiculous fine too.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 8, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Yes because there s a severe disability premium added to the ESA which they didn't bother stopping at the same time.
> 
> When the DWP start paying benefit claimants DWP wages only then should we start doing their fucking jobs for them. Until then they should fuck off and do the jobs they are paid to do and do them fucking correctly.
> 
> What's that recent law about encouraging people to commit suicide?


Not that recent. Suicide Act 1961 - it's an offence to "aid, abet, counsel or procure" a suicide.

I think it'd be very hard to make a prosecution stick, as I think you need to prove intent. But your point stands - they are treating people they often *know *to be vulnerable in ways which to any reasonable person would be likely to increase the risk. It's sickening.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Not that recent. Suicide Act 1961 - it's an offence to "aid, abet, counsel or procure" a suicide.
> 
> I think it'd be very hard to make a prosecution stick, as I think you need to prove intent. But your point stands - they are treating people they often *know *to be vulnerable in ways which to any reasonable person would be likely to increase the risk. It's sickening.


They have recently had a PIP form and an ESA form from me which they are currently dealing with and it's clearly spelled out in both had the incompetent twats bothered to look.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 9, 2017)

iona said:


> Yeah, they did it to me when I started work a few years ago and they reckoned it was my not telling them soon enough that had caused them to overpay me. You can appeal but I had nothing to back mine up - didn't even find out about it until I went back on ESA several years later and they started deducting money for the overpayment and penalty
> 
> Fingers crossed this will get sorted quickly for WouldBe. Not like it's unclear who's to blame for this particular fuck up, ffs!


It's happened to me in the past too except they just recover the overpayment then have to pay the overpayment back when the DLA has finally been decided in my favor. There has never been a fucking fine previously.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 9, 2017)

Is there a branch of "letterbombs 'r' us" in the UK?


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Is there a branch of "letterbombs 'r' us" in the UK?


Don't even joke about it, or the next thing will be some DWP spokesperson doing the whole pearl-clutching thing and talking about how they receive constant threats for "just doing their jobs" *cough*


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jul 9, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Don't even joke about it, or the next thing will be some DWP spokesperson doing the whole pearl-clutching thing and talking about how they receive constant threats for "just doing their jobs" *cough*


if only they would get on and do their fucking jobs...


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 10, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> if only they would get on and do their fucking jobs...


And do them fucking properly.


----------



## wayward bob (Jul 12, 2017)

hello thread

i've managed to speak to bezza on jsa who you suggested could be on esa. i printed some good guidelines i got linked for her. but she's petrified that in some way it might throw doubt on her parenting of her kids (14 & 6). she has them most of the time and they also both spend time with their dads who live locally. *being mum* is what's keeps her going and they have a properly happy home, despite their various struggles with anxiety and physical health issues (which entails quite a lot of contact with "services" in general).

does anyone have any reassuring thoughts? i think some kind of advocate might be helpful? how can you be sure that person is trustworthy when you've had repeated traumatic experiences with so-called-professionals over many years?


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 13, 2017)

Just had an invite for my ESA assessment. There's a handy note on the back of the letter that says "If you can't manage to get down 96 steps in the event of a fire without assistance please let us know so we can rearrange the venue." 

To make matters even more ridiculous they have just moved the local job center down stairs in a different part of the building. If they had merged the downstairs bit with the job center on the first floor then they could have moved the assessment center onto the ground floor making it far more accessible.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 13, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Just had an invite for my ESA assessment. There's a handy note on the back of the letter that says "If you can't manage to get down 96 steps in the event of a fire without assistance please let us know so we can rearrange the venue."
> 
> To make matters even more ridiculous they have just moved the local job center down stairs in a different part of the building. If they had merged the downstairs bit with the job center on the first floor then they could have moved the assessment center onto the ground floor making it far more accessible.


AH, but that would have been sensible...


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 13, 2017)

wayward bob said:


> hello thread
> 
> i've managed to speak to bezza on jsa who you suggested could be on esa. i printed some good guidelines i got linked for her. but she's petrified that in some way it might throw doubt on her parenting of her kids (14 & 6). she has them most of the time and they also both spend time with their dads who live locally. *being mum* is what's keeps her going and they have a properly happy home, despite their various struggles with anxiety and physical health issues (which entails quite a lot of contact with "services" in general).
> 
> does anyone have any reassuring thoughts? i think some kind of advocate might be helpful? how can you be sure that person is trustworthy when you've had repeated traumatic experiences with so-called-professionals over many years?


You could tell her that parents with all sorts of medical conditions, mental and physical, use ESA benefits. There's a lot of anecdotal evidence about things the DWP have done that are pretty terrible, but personally I'm unaware of it being used to punishment parents for being unwell.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 14, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> AH, but that would have been sensible...


Presumably anyone who accepts an appointment at this location will be automatically deemed fit as they can apparently manage 96 steps unaided.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Presumably anyone who accepts an appointment at this location will be automatically deemed fit as they can apparently manage 96 steps unaided.


I've no doubt that's part of the thinking. Is there an out of order lift too?


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 15, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I've no doubt that's part of the thinking. Is there an out of order lift too?


That did work last time I had to go there some years back although it stopped abruptly leaving you in a crumpled heap on the floor.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 22, 2017)

Sister had a letter the other day saying she had been put in ESA support group without even filling in a ESA form. She just sent in letters from her psychiatrist who was livid that the DWP hadn't bothered to contact them.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 22, 2017)

My GP has faxed a letter to Maximus stating I need a home visit for my ESA assessment. Maximus have said that when they receive the fax they will look at it and decide whether I can actually have a home visit or not. 

If I have to go for a f2f assessment I might have to 'accidentally' take a double dose of laxatives before hand.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 22, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> My GP has faxed a letter to Maximus stating I need a home visit for my ESA assessment. Maximus have said that when they receive the fax they will look at it and decide whether I can actually have a home visit or not.
> 
> If I have to go for a f2f assessment I might have to 'accidentally' take a double dose of laxatives before hand.


I believe either longdog or yardbird had some excellent suggestions earlier in the thread along those lines  

If you need to go, you need to go


----------



## existentialist (Jul 23, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I believe either longdog or yardbird had some excellent suggestions earlier in the thread along those lines
> 
> If you need to go, you need to go


Having recently had to take magnesium citrate, I can highly recommend it for its efficacy in this regard.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 23, 2017)

Finally put together a response to the fine letter unfortunately it won't arrive before the dead line



> Dear Sir or Madam,
> On Friday 7th July I received your letter notifying me that you intended to fine me for failing to notify you of a change in my circumstances. This change in circumstances was a direct result of your own making.
> 
> 1. It’s not my fault that the DLA department failed to communicate with the ESA department.
> ...


Any suggestions as to alterations or who else it should be Cc'd to?


----------



## BCBlues (Jul 23, 2017)

I like it WouldBe .

It's where you're at right now with these arseholes, you can feel the anxiety and stress in your letter. Whether those heartless bastards will is another matter.

I would however add a sentence in the opening paragraph saying "I wish to appeal against this decision of which I was notified on dd/mm/yyyy" (if you are in the one month time limit that is).

All the best, old saying but don't let the bastards grind you down.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 23, 2017)

I Think it's a great letter WouldBe


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 24, 2017)

BCBlues said:


> I like it WouldBe .
> 
> It's where you're at right now with these arseholes, you can feel the anxiety and stress in your letter. Whether those heartless bastards will is another matter.


Hopefully C4 will considering they did a piece a while back about the number of claimants who have died going through the DWP process. 



> I would however add a sentence in the opening paragraph saying "I wish to appeal against this decision of which I was notified on dd/mm/yyyy" (if you are in the one month time limit that is).


They have only given me 3 weeks to appeal which is up on Tuesday.


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## BCBlues (Jul 26, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> They have only given me 3 weeks to appeal which is up on Tuesday.



That's their classic move to always deny you the first week by making sure there's around 8 days already gone by the time a letter is delivered.


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 27, 2017)

Letter will be posted this afternoon. 

Not quite worked out what to say in e-mail to MP's yet. Might just cc the DoJ as well and suggest they bill the DWP for tribunals where they overturn the DWP's crappy decision.


----------



## pengaleng (Jul 27, 2017)

YES!!!!!! FUCK THEM UP!!!!!!!


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 27, 2017)

After waiting nearly 4 weeks for a supporting letter from my gp, it finally arrived today.

I paid £30 for the privilege of reading 44 words that just confirm that I am their patient, and lists only some of the illnesses that I have. It then says "He states his condition affects his activity of daily tasks. Attached is a letter from the patient with his information". This is despite me providing them with full guidance notes (not a letter) on what was needed.

It's completely useless as a supporting letter for my appeal.

I feel angry, upset, disgusted and betrayed.

I'm really struggling now - having horrible intrusive thoughts, about violent fantasies.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> After waiting nearly 4 weeks for a supporting letter from my gp, it finally arrived today.
> 
> I paid £30 for the privilege of reading 44 words that just confirm that I am their patient, and lists only some of the illnesses that I have. It then says "He states his condition affects his activity of daily tasks. Attached is a letter from the patient with his information". This is despite me providing them with full guidance notes (not a letter) on what was needed.
> 
> ...


Sorry and frustrated to hear that fishfinger, that's not helpful at all. Is there another GP that could help you in the practice? Do you have any consultants that could help? 

Hope the intrusive thoughts have quietened down, hang in there.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 28, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Sorry and frustrated to hear that fishfinger, that's not helpful at all. Is there another GP that could help you in the practice? Do you have any consultants that could help?
> 
> Hope the intrusive thoughts have quietened down, hang in there.


Thanks, it's actually the practice manager that writes the letters.

She called me 2 weeks ago, to tell me that she would not write anything along the lines of "patient's condition affects his activity of daily tasks" just the non-committal "He states his condition affects his activity of daily tasks". I told her I wasn't happy with that, explaining that I'd specifically seen that particular GP because he knew me. She just repeated what she'd said. I reluctantly agreed, as I'm desperate for any support. She promised that she'd "trawl the records" to see what she could do to help.

As for support from consultants, unfortunately not. It's been years since I've seen a psychiatrist  and mental health care in Barking is really overstretched. All they can offer is 6-8 sessions of CBT with trainee/recently qualified psychologists (and I've already had 2 lots of that).

The intrusive thoughts are less frequent but really difficult to cope with (it's taken me over an hour to write this post).


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 28, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Thanks, it's actually the practice manager that writes the letters.
> 
> She called me 2 weeks ago, to tell me that she would not write anything along the lines of "patient's condition affects his activity of daily tasks" just the non-committal "He states his condition affects his activity of daily tasks". I told her I wasn't happy with that, explaining that I'd specifically seen that particular GP because he knew me. She just repeated what she'd said. I reluctantly agreed, as I'm desperate for any support. She promised that she'd "trawl the records" to see what she could do to help.
> 
> ...


I 'M sorry to hear the intrusive thoughts are making things so difficult and you're not getting the support you need. Sounds like the CBT has been of limited use to you anyway. Is it worth trying to see a psychiatrist again, even if they're stretched?

I Just want you to remember you are not alone x

Useless practice manager by the sounds of things too.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 28, 2017)

Thanks for the kind words, they do help. I'll try and deal with this next week, if I've calmed down enough.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Thanks for the kind words, they do help. I'll try and deal with this next week, if I've calmed down enough.


Hope you are feeling a bit better fishfinger.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 29, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Hope you are feeling a bit better fishfinger.


A little bit, thanks


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> A little bit, thanks


The time of your posts suggests we're awake at similar times fishfinger - a fellow insomniac?


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 29, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> The time of your posts suggests we're awake at similar times fishfinger - a fellow insomniac?


Very much so. I hope to get a couple of hours sleep this afternoon


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Very much so. I hope to get a couple of hours sleep this afternoon


SAme here, woke up at 1am, not back off until 5.30. 

Can recognise the intrusive thoughts, some very unpleasant stuff appeared around 3am.


----------



## fishfinger (Jul 29, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> ...some very unpleasant stuff appeared around 3am.


Sorry to hear that.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> Sorry to hear that.


Thanks, I managed to eventually get past it. Horrible for a bit though.


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## WouldBe (Jul 31, 2017)

Letter has arrived at the DWP 

Just need to send some e-mails out now.


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## iona (Jul 31, 2017)

Anyone able to answer a couple of questions about the ESA50 form quickly?

First thing, do the "physical functions" questions about communication include difficulties caused by something like autism? Or only something like being deaf or physically unable to write/type?

Also - communicating comes under two questions in the physical functions section of the form, "speaking, writing and typing" and "hearing and reading". The first, question 6, seems to be about how well OTHER PEOPLE can understand YOU but it's worded the same as question 7 - "Please tick this box if you understand other people without any difficulty"  Should one of those questions say "Please tick this box if other people understand you without any difficulty" instead?

Ta.


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## friendofdorothy (Jul 31, 2017)

iona said:


> Anyone able to answer a couple of questions about the ESA50 form quickly?
> 
> First thing, do the "physical functions" questions about communication include difficulties caused by something like autism? Or only something like being deaf or physically unable to write/type?
> 
> ...


Its a while since someone helped me fill in that form so it may have changed. Their advice was if in doubt include it anyway. And as the form is repetitious just repeat it when asked in answer to several questions.


----------



## iona (Jul 31, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Its a while since someone helped me fill in that form so it may have changed. Their advice was if in doubt include it anyway. And as the form is repetitious just repeat it when asked in answer to several questions.



Thanks  I probably would've given that advice to anyone else myself. Just get paralysed needing to do stuff *the right way*


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## WouldBe (Aug 3, 2017)

Just sent an e-mail to C4 news. 

Had a reply from local MP. Want's me to go and see 1 of his case workers. I will if I can find the time and energy to do so.

2 of the ministers say they can't accept e-mails about ministerial business to their MP e-mail account and to send the e-mail to an alternative e-mail address as they can't forward the e-mails and this is government policy. Yet the 3rd minister says any e-mails for the minister will be forwarded.  So whether they get the e-mail or not I don't know. May have to re-send them.


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## Celyn (Aug 3, 2017)

Oh well done, WouldBe!  In your shoes, I'd be reduced to a gibbering heap hiding in a corner. That's all very efficient of you, NOT that you should have to go through all this.

Could you ask the MP to have either self or a caseworker visit you at home if that would be better for you?

The bit about the ministers is quite crazy. The whole thing really does a great impression of being designed to drive everyone crackers.   

Fingers crossed for you.


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## scifisam (Aug 4, 2017)

Well done wouldbe B) 

I got given an appointment date for my PIP assessment and it was a date I couldn't do (because I need someone here with me). So I called them up and told them the dates I could do. Naturally this means they've sent a new appointment for a date I can't do.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> Well done wouldbe B)
> 
> I got given an appointment date for my PIP assessment and it was a date I couldn't do (because I need someone here with me). So I called them up and told them the dates I could do. Naturally this means they've sent a new appointment for a date I can't do.


Kafka is impressed... Hope you get a suitable appointment soon.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2017)

Brilliant news, WouldBe, can the caseworker come to you?


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## scifisam (Aug 4, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Kafka is impressed... Hope you get a suitable appointment soon.


I can't change it because they'd count it as a second change (even though they sent the first date without consulting me) and then if there were an emergency and I had to change the next one I'd lose all my benefits.


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## equationgirl (Aug 4, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I can't change it because they'd count it as a second change (even though they sent the first date without consulting me) and then if there were an emergency and I had to change the next one I'd lose all my benefits.


That's a nightmare, they really are fuckers.


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## WouldBe (Aug 5, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Brilliant news, WouldBe, can the caseworker come to you?


Possibly but I'm that knackered at the moment I'm struggling to stay awake at the best of times so I'm not sure I could cope with more 'stress' at the moment.


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## BCBlues (Aug 5, 2017)

The last few posts on here are proof that the DWP push people into stressful, worrying, sleepless nights and anger. They really are a horrible bunch.

Fair play WouldBe for fighting back. It's all we can do when we're up for it.


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## WouldBe (Aug 10, 2017)

Looks like they have ignored the letter and have fined me £50 so I owe them £2.4K

First option is to pay it all by debit card.


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## equationgirl (Aug 10, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Looks like they have ignored the letter and have fined me £50 so I owe them £2.4K
> 
> First option is to pay it all by debit card.


Have you contacted your MP about this latest development? Or the local press? 

How the fuck is anyone supposed to pay that much money in a lump sum???


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 11, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Have you contacted your MP about this latest development? Or the local press?
> 
> How the fuck is anyone supposed to pay that much money in a lump sum???


It's fucking ridiculous isn't it. 

Phoning MP this afternoon.


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## equationgirl (Aug 11, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> It's fucking ridiculous isn't it.
> 
> Phoning MP this afternoon.


Hope you got somewhere x


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 12, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Hope you got somewhere x


Seeing a case worker on Monday afternoon.


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## Celyn (Aug 12, 2017)

Good! Fingers crossed.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 12, 2017)

Keeping my fingers crossed for you @would be - best of luck x


----------



## Pac man (Aug 16, 2017)

fishfinger, sorry to hear about your difficulties. I cant believe that a "practice manager" has written this letter, its disgusting. I would put in a complaint firstly stating that this is far from acceptable as you firstly are uncomfortable with anyone other than "your" doctor having access to and sharing your private and confidential information, secondly, its inpersonal and only your doctor knows your needs. Write another letter to your doctor, pleading for another letter from him/her. You do not need the doctor to list any of the daily living tasks that affect your ability to "work", thats too vauge for doctors to do and, ime isnt needed anyway from supporting evidence. The Dr will however say things like "hyper arousal", "anxiety" and "panic" make it extremely difficult for him/her to engage with the public, suffers with chronic depression or pain, has difficulty sleeping, they may even ask you to fill in a GAD form (if not ask for one) then hand it back in. The doctor can then say "scored x on GAD". Explain about the intrusive thoughts and your overwhelming fear of the DWP, the need for support and the fact you have previously engaged with mental health services but to no avail and consequently struggle to engage further due to avoidance with public/services. Finally, tell them its making you suicidal, god knows its enough to push anybody over the edge. Difficulties like these make it hard enough to look for work nevermind hold down a job. DEMAND this letter, get pushy and desperate. Write a letter to the doctor tell them you are coming back and this is the minimum you need from them, make and appointment and let rip.  Also you could contact mental health where you had CBT and ask them to forward any/all information they have on file about you, to you and ask your doctor for any letters sent from mental health to him/her about you.

If you have sent in your esa50 form, just forward this evidence on to the decision maker and take it with you if you need to attend a face to face. Finally, dont let the bastards grind you down


----------



## fishfinger (Aug 16, 2017)

Pac man said:


> fishfinger, sorry to hear about your difficulties. I cant believe that a "practice manager" has written this letter, its disgusting. I would put in a complaint firstly stating that this is far from acceptable as you firstly are uncomfortable with anyone other than "your" doctor having access to and sharing your private and confidential information, secondly, its inpersonal and only your doctor knows your needs. Write another letter to your doctor, pleading for another letter from him/her. You do not need the doctor to list any of the daily living tasks that affect your ability to "work", thats too vauge for doctors to do and, ime isnt needed anyway from supporting evidence. The Dr will however say things like "hyper arousal", "anxiety" and "panic" make it extremely difficult for him/her to engage with the public, suffers with chronic depression or pain, has difficulty sleeping, they may even ask you to fill in a GAD form (if not ask for one) then hand it back in. The doctor can then say "scored x on GAD". Explain about the intrusive thoughts and your overwhelming fear of the DWP, the need for support and the fact you have previously engaged with mental health services but to no avail and consequently struggle to engage further due to avoidance with public/services. Finally, tell them its making you suicidal, god knows its enough to push anybody over the edge. Difficulties like these make it hard enough to look for work nevermind hold down a job. DEMAND this letter, get pushy and desperate. Write a letter to the doctor tell them you are coming back and this is the minimum you need from them, make and appointment and let rip.  Also you could contact mental health where you had CBT and ask them to forward any/all information they have on file about you, to you and ask your doctor for any letters sent from mental health to him/her about you.
> 
> If you have sent in your esa50 form, just forward this evidence on to the decision maker and take it with you if you need to attend a face to face. Finally, dont let the bastards grind you down


Thank you very much for your post, you make some very good points. I was going to post about this later today. 

After I got the original letter, my wife wrote to the GP complaining about it and made some suggestions for changes to be made. GP called us in for an appointment and we discussed my mental health and the support letter. The appointment went on for about an hour, and I managed to get a lot off my chest. The result of the appointment was a new improved letter that hopefully will make a difference to my appeal. I'm going to the Post Office this morning to send it off to the tribunal.


----------



## Pac man (Aug 16, 2017)

That sounds promising  

Best of luck..


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## chainsawjob (Aug 17, 2017)

Best of luck WouldBe and fishfinger


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## BCBlues (Aug 17, 2017)

That post deserves more than a like Pac man, some thoughtful advice in there.

And great stuff from WouldBe and fishfinger, let them know we won't be bullied.


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## iona (Aug 21, 2017)

Letter sent 13th, arrived 16th (staff here only just let me know I had post) - PIP assessment on the 25th. I told them I needed AT LEAST a fortnight's notice to arrange for my support worker to come with me and he's not even in 'til the 28th, so I'm going to have to rearrange (if any staff will phone for me - today they refused because I could "do it myself"  ). Bet they book the next one for a date I can't do too


----------



## iona (Aug 21, 2017)

Oh and I'm also stressing because the assessment is just down the road, not up in Lewes like I was told it would be. It's one of my 'safe' roads - know it well, always quiet, close to home if I need to escape - so I'm worried my assessor will have seen me walking past and assume I'm lying about the difficulties I have getting around


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 21, 2017)

iona  wishing you all the best x


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## crossthebreeze (Aug 21, 2017)

Hope you get it rearranged, and best of luck iona


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 22, 2017)

iona said:


> Oh and I'm also stressing because the assessment is just down the road, not up in Lewes like I was told it would be. It's one of my 'safe' roads - know it well, always quiet, close to home if I need to escape - so I'm worried my assessor will have seen me walking past and assume I'm lying about the difficulties I have getting around


I'd be surprised if people paid that much attention if it's their workplace, suspect they're too busy concentrating on getting in on time or are in a rush to get home. Please try not to worry x


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## chainsawjob (Aug 22, 2017)

Hope you can get it rearranged iona, it's such a lot of needless stress this process.


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## WouldBe (Aug 25, 2017)

Well that's one problem sorted. It seems it pays to keep pushing for a home visit as the bastards have given in and decided to do a paper assessment instead so I've been put in the ESA support group. 

Do I get a copy of the breakdown to see what points were awarded for what to use as evidence to back up my PIP claim? and also as evidence that the PIP department are defrauding claimants?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 25, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Well that's one problem sorted. It seems it pays to keep pushing for a home visit as the bastards have given in and decided to do a paper assessment instead so I've been put in the ESA support group.
> 
> Do I get a copy of the breakdown to see what points were awarded for what to use as evidence to back up my PIP claim? and also as evidence that the PIP department are defrauding claimants?



They are supposed to send you the basis of your decision, so if it doesn't turn up in the next 10 working days, phone them and chuck shit at them!


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## equationgirl (Aug 26, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Well that's one problem sorted. It seems it pays to keep pushing for a home visit as the bastards have given in and decided to do a paper assessment instead so I've been put in the ESA support group.
> 
> Do I get a copy of the breakdown to see what points were awarded for what to use as evidence to back up my PIP claim? and also as evidence that the PIP department are defrauding claimants?


Hurrah!! Victory is yours! Jolly well done  

Did you manage to get that overpayment bollocks sorted as well?


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## WouldBe (Aug 26, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Did you manage to get that overpayment bollocks sorted as well?


Waiting to see if letter from MP's office has any effect.

Still waiting for PIP tribunal as well  but a victory is still a victory.


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## WouldBe (Aug 27, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> They are supposed to send you the basis of your decision, so if it doesn't turn up in the next 10 working days, phone them and chuck shit at them!


Only time I've had one before is when I've appealed a decision.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 27, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Only time I've had one before is when I've appealed a decision.



Like I said, they're *supposed* to, but like you, I've only ever had them when I've appealed a decision.


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## BCBlues (Aug 28, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Like I said, they're *supposed* to, but like you, I've only ever had them when I've appealed a decision.



I used a template from the Benefits & Work website that referred them to the Freedom of Information Act and asked for all decisions,correspondence, emails etc relating to the decision.
They still never actually answered it but included it (kind of) in an appeal pack.

It all sounds a bit dubious and secret to me but we shouldn't be surprised by that bunch of arseholes.


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## WouldBe (Aug 29, 2017)

Another brown envelope this morning. DWP have dropped the £50 fine for not telling them about what they did. 

Still got to repay the overpayment though until my PIP gets sorted.

As Meatloaf said "2 out of 3 ain't bad" so far.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Aug 29, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Another brown envelope this morning. DWP have dropped the £50 fine for not telling them about what they did.
> 
> Still got to repay the overpayment though until my PIP gets sorted.
> 
> As Meatloaf said "2 out of 3 ain't bad" so far.


perhaps you should write to them telling them they have sent a letter informing you that they dropped the £50 fine...


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## Libertad (Aug 29, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> perhaps you should write to them telling them they have sent a letter informing you that they dropped the £50 fine...



and charge them for it.


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## chainsawjob (Aug 31, 2017)

Good news WouldBe on the Support Group decision, and on them dropping the £50 fine.  I hope it comes in three's and you eventually get a good outcome on the PIP tribunal as well.

Latest on my PIP, my MR was rejected (I asked for MR re them stopping my DLA for 'failure to attend' my medical).  I used the DWP criteria for determining whether I had 'good reason' for failing to attend (thanks Jackobi ), which I thought I _did_ (but they obviously didn't, or just rejected it cos that's what they do with 80% of MR's or whatever the figure is  , I forget) I am now preparing an appeal against that decision.  I've asked for help from Benefits and Work, and will probably go to CAB as well (although as equationgirl says you have to strike lucky with the right advisor who knows their stuff about PIP and appeals, and previously I've spoken to someone who wasn't sufficiently clued up, and B&W have been better).

Good luck and strength to anyone currently slogging through a fight with this bastard system.  As Ken Butler of Disability Rights UK said in an article I'm going to post in the 'Campaign against welfare cuts and poverty' thread... "The system now only functions really to put people off going any further – the whole process is quite lengthy and stressful." Exactly that 

Edit: the 80% figure for rejected MR's is correct, I checked


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 31, 2017)

Best of luck chainsawjob hang in there.


----------



## BCBlues (Sep 1, 2017)

Just won my PIP appeal folks 

Went for a paper appeal this time as really weren't up for going through my whole life story again, only just finished an ESA appeal.

Interesting because the DWP referred to the ESA Health Assessment in their decision. When I pointed out in Mandatory that the information from that assessment was flawed that's why a legal decision was made to set aside that decision, they then pulled out the "oh ESA and PIP are different " chestnut.
I pointed this out in my appeal and asked if that is the case then why have they used information from the ESA claim to decide my PIP entitlement.

One more point I refused to do the silly little physical "test" for the PIP assessment and told the HP (lol) that I was refusing because there was enough evidence from more accurate tests done by specialists and consultants for them to refer to.

I was only one point short of mobility but got enough points for standard care. I'm happy with that tbh as I don't have to worry about HB/CTB  Non-Dep charges for my teenage children now.

Lengthy and Stressful yes, as chainsawjob has mentioned above, but worth it every time one of us proves that their evil ways will not always prevail. Good luck everyone, I'll be keeping an eye on this thread of course to support you all.


----------



## Libertad (Sep 1, 2017)

Great news BCBlues


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## chainsawjob (Sep 1, 2017)

Excellent news BCBlues! Well done.


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## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2017)

Fab news BCBlues well done


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## WouldBe (Sep 7, 2017)

I had a letter yesterday from my MP. It appears that the MP's assistant e-mailed the DWP for a mandatory reconsideration of the fine. It took the DWP all of 3 days to reconsider their decision.  This must be some sort of record.

Perhaps we should put all mandatory reconsiderations through our MP's. It would speed up the process and make the MP's fully aware of what shit the DWP are causing claimants. 

I've received a letter this morning from the tribunals service. I've finally got my PIP tribunal at the start of October. 15 months after I had my F2F assessment.


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## chainsawjob (Sep 8, 2017)

Good news on your MP's intervention WouldBe. I'd been thinking of doing the same, and am writing a letter to them now (still unsure if I'll send it).  My MP is doesn't represent my views at all, but has been involved in a specific mental health campaign.

15 months is shocking, but at least there is a date now. I've had similar waits for ESA F2Fs (after returning my ESA50), but not had a tribunal before. You're right, all this dragging out causes us a lot of shit and stress.

So I've got a week to get my appeal to the Tribunal Service, so I'm getting on with it now.  I'm waiting for a call back from the CAB (rang them Tuesday and they hoped to get back to me by the end of the week), and I've have a bit of advice from Benefits & Work, although they said they didn't really know what to advise, except I've got to try and prove 'good reason' for not attending the F2F.  So I'm going to have another look at the criteria, and have a better go at trying to prove they didn't abide by their own rules.  Knowing that 80% of MR's get turned down anyway, it probably didn't matter what I put


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 8, 2017)

Jackobi where did this doc come from is it something anyone can access online? I've tried searching on .gov to see where it's located, but the search function is a bit impenetrable, I can't track it down.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473399/admp6.pdf

Edit: found it! In a very long list of ADM documents, so it is available to anyone. I have learnt what ADM means, Advice for Decision Makers.


----------



## wtfftw (Sep 8, 2017)

Ugh. ESA50. Assume I'm screwed as I have a baby.


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2017)

Nice find chainsawjob


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## iona (Sep 8, 2017)

Turned up for my PIP assessment at 1:15 and told they were having staffing issues so I'd have to wait until half two, maybe three if I wanted to be seen today - "Oh, we've been trying to call you all morning. We must have the wrong number..." Funny, my phone's been on all day with no missed calls and it rung straight away when they tried calling it to check the number they had. I'm sure they wouldn't just make that up because I'd brought a support worker with me though, would they?! 

Going back on the 19th


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## chainsawjob (Sep 8, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Nice find chainsawjob


It was Jackobi who originally posted the link


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 8, 2017)

Very fishy iona, I wouldn't put it past them. Crap that they've given you the runaround though.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2017)

Thanks to Jackobi for the helpful link


----------



## iona (Sep 8, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Very fishy iona, I wouldn't put it past them. Crap that they've given you the runaround though.



My keyworker just came and told me he's actually doing some training so can't make the time we both agreed when we rebooked it earlier  Have managed rebook again, eventually (after half an hour on hold with the DWP because the keyworker calling didn't know she needed to phone Atos!), for the 25th. I didn't think I was allowed to rebook a second time - maybe they just saw the most recent rearranged apt and didn't notice that I'd rebooked before that


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## chainsawjob (Sep 9, 2017)

This is exactly what happened to me iona, same reason, and I wasn't allowed to rebook a second time. They ended my claim for failing to attend, and I'm now appealing the decision. I think you might have fallen lucky there


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 12, 2017)

Ok, I think I'm going to have to put my appeal in late.  I rang DWP to ask for extra time, and they said I needed to speak to the Tribunals Service.  Spoke to them and they said they don't give extra time, but you can put in an appeal late and give your reasons in Section 5, and submit evidence why it's late (I have this, it's because new medication I've been prescribed is making it difficult to concentrate). The DWP are given four weeks to object to the appeal being put in late.  I asked whether they are often successful in getting an appeal thrown out for being late, and was told, no if it's only a week late and you show evidence, yes if it's months late. 

I've had some trouble finding the appeal form which I've just realised I need to use.  The letter only says it can be found on www.justice.gov.uk/tribunals, but doesn't give an exact page.  Anyway, I found it Venues and forms form SSCS1 here's the pdf in case anyone else is hunting high and low https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/sscs1-eng.pdf

Edit: oh and the guidance leaflet to filling it in https://formfinder.hmctsformfinder.justice.gov.uk/sscs1a-eng.pdf


----------



## felixthecat (Sep 12, 2017)

felixthecat said:


> I'm about to enter the pip and esa nightmare with the daughter. She's not on any benefits atm and none of us have ever claimed before so I'm going to need some help for her.



Well. Got the brown envelope yesterday - she's been awarded enhanced PIP which has been back paid to June. No interview. 

Suprised but pleased.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2017)

felixthecat said:


> Well. Got the brown envelope yesterday - she's been awarded enhanced PIP which has been back paid to June. No interview.
> 
> Suprised but pleased.


That's fantastic news felixthecat really good


----------



## iona (Sep 25, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> This is exactly what happened to me iona, same reason, and I wasn't allowed to rebook a second time. They ended my claim for failing to attend, and I'm now appealing the decision. I think you might have fallen lucky there



Yeah, I was remembering that when my support worker was trying to convince me they "can't do that because it would be illegal" - like that's ever stopped them before! Hope you get yours sorted on appeal.

Just been to my assessment and it wasn't too bad. Assessor happened to have a relevant background (listed a range of roles within various psychiatric services over the last twenty years), had actually read my form and let my support worker answer most of the questions. Even spent a few minutes talking with him about how best to get people assessed on paper once we were finished.

Still expecting to have to appeal, mind, but anything that makes the process less shit is appreciated.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 25, 2017)

I changed over to PIP recently and didn't have to appeal! TBF I'm a relatively obvious case but that doesn't always mean anything. It's indefinite too. One weight off my mind


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2017)

iona said:


> Yeah, I was remembering that when my support worker was trying to convince me they "can't do that because it would be illegal" - like that's ever stopped them before! Hope you get yours sorted on appeal.
> 
> Just been to my assessment and it wasn't too bad. Assessor happened to have a relevant background (listed a range of roles within various psychiatric services over the last twenty years), had actually read my form and let my support worker answer most of the questions. Even spent a few minutes talking with him about how best to get people assessed on paper once we were finished.
> 
> Still expecting to have to appeal, mind, but anything that makes the process less shit is appreciated.


That's encouraging iona, keeping my fingers crossed for a positive outcome for you


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 25, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I changed over to PIP recently and didn't have to appeal! TBF I'm a relatively obvious case but that doesn't always mean anything. It's indefinite too. One weight off my mind


About time for some good news, well done


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 25, 2017)

scifisam said:


> I changed over to PIP recently and didn't have to appeal! TBF I'm a relatively obvious case but that doesn't always mean anything. It's indefinite too. One weight off my mind



Double like! Very good news


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## WouldBe (Sep 27, 2017)

My sister had her PIP tribunal yesterday. There was a judge, GP, some other bod and an arse from the DWP there.  Sounds like it was a right Spanish inquisition type affair and sis isn't happy about it.

They wouldn't give my sis a reply at the end of the tribunal either she has to sweat it out for several days until she gets a decision through the post.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 27, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> My sister had her PIP tribunal yesterday. There was a judge, GP, some other bod and an arse from the DWP there.  Sounds like it was a right Spanish inquisition type affair and sis isn't happy about it.
> 
> They wouldn't give my sis a reply at the end of the tribunal either she has to sweat it out for several days until she gets a decision through the post.


sounds horrible having to wait just adding to pain. sending good wishes x


----------



## chainsawjob (Sep 27, 2017)

That's rough WouldBe, I hope they don't keep her waiting too long.


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## equationgirl (Sep 27, 2017)

Sounds tough WouldBe hope she hears soon and is OK.


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## WouldBe (Sep 29, 2017)

Sister got her decision yesterday. Tribunal has upheld DWP's decision of 0 points despite her having fibromyalgia and regularly seeing a shrink.  Apparently anything to do with DLA has no bearing on PIP as it's totally different despite most of the questions being the same and most of the point scores being the same.


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## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Sister got her decision yesterday. Tribunal has upheld DWP's decision of 0 points despite her having fibromyalgia and regularly seeing a shrink.  Apparently anything to do with DLA has no bearing on PIP as it's totally different despite most of the questions being the same and most of the point scores being the same.


Can she appeal? 

I don't understand this persistence that the two are not related. How can they not be?


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 29, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Can she appeal?


She's seeing a benefits org today sometime for advice. I suspect all she can do is take it to 2nd tier tribunal with the hope they refer it back to a different 1st tier tribunal. 



> I don't understand this persistence that the two are not related. How can they not be?


I've no idea. May have to do a print out to show how closely related they are for my tribunal next Tue. 

They kept asking my sis how long it took her to walk 30M. WTF 30M has got to do with anything I don't know and why should how long it take be of any relevance when the question asks how far you can walk. If they persist with that with me I mat have to invite them to the college next door to demonstrate I can cover 30M in 3 seconds......vertically.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 29, 2017)

These assessments are just bollocks, Greebo (much missed) always said that it's not just the assessment itself it's the impact of doing the assessment on the claimant over the following few weeks that should also be included. The repeatability aspect of doing activity A seems very overlooked.


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## chainsawjob (Sep 29, 2017)

Oh no WouldBe, that's awful for your sister.

It really is all bollocks 

I hope you get a different panel for yours.


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## WouldBe (Oct 4, 2017)

Had my tribunal yesterday. Think I've blown it. I couldn't remember a lot of vital bits to say. Damn this shitty memory loss. 

Just have to wait for the letter.


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## Celyn (Oct 4, 2017)

Oh I hope not, WouldBe. Fingers crossed for you.


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## equationgirl (Oct 4, 2017)

Hopefully the fact that you couldn't remember will work in your favour @worldbe my fingers crossed for you too.


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## WouldBe (Oct 5, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Hopefully the fact that you couldn't remember will work in your favour @worldbe my fingers crossed for you too.


It wasn't a case of I kept telling them "I can't remember" it was the fact that I couldn't remember to expand on thing and add vital info like having to stop frequently when shopping.  The occupational therapist said that if I used the stairs more it would strengthen my quads which would help with the knee problem. As soon as she said it I knew there was something wrong with it. 4 hours later it finally twigged that the reason I had a downstairs loo put in was because I was struggling to get up the stairs in the first sodding place.

Mind you the stress did cause my left leg to go into spasms which they did notice but again I forgot to mention that that would severely affect my walking ability. ability to stand to cook a meal etc. Hopefully they have the commonsense to put 2 + 2 together and not end up with 3,761 or something stupid like that.  Not that I think they will after some of the stupid comments made by so called professional people. Dr asked several times why housemaids knee affected my walking ability and why it affected my left leg when I've only got it on the right knee so had to point out that it wasn't the housemaids knee that was causing the problems but the deteriorating cartilage in both knees that was the problem. Then the occupational therapist, who was getting frustrated, asked why I couldn't use my hips to cross my legs so I could get my lower body clothes on in a morning. Now unless the medical profession have moved / renamed the hips since I was in St Johns ambulance I had to demonstrate to her how using your hips to cross your legs didn't bring your feet any closer so you still wouldn't be able to reach them.  She also asked me how much a pack of cigs were and then asked how much change I'd get from a tenner. If they think that is a valid mental state exam they have another think coming and even if it was part of a longer test it still wouldn't count as the price of cigs has stayed the same since the last budget so I've been told approx 100 times how much the cigs are and how much change they are giving me so I no longer need to work it out it's permanently etched in my brain. 

Letter has arrived I'll be back in a bit.....


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## WouldBe (Oct 5, 2017)

Not good. 
Got awarded 7 points for daily living and 4 points for mobility which is at lest 13 points more than the DWP twats awarded.
2 points for cooking a meal. Needs to use an aid or appliance. 
 What aids are there to stop me blowing myself up when I forget to light the gas stove then eventually do?
 What aids are there to stop myself from being injured if I get spasms in the arm I'm holding the knife in? Does a suit of armour count and would that be reasonable?
 What aid stops me throwing boiling water of hot fat around If I get spasms in my arm?
 What aid helps me remember what I'm doing or do I need to write a check list out every time and check the steps off as I do them?

4 points for being able to walk more than 50m but less than 200m even though I am in severe pain and have been known to throw up after only 18m.

No points at all for anything to do with memory loss despite DWP work psychologist report stating otherwise.


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## Orang Utan (Oct 5, 2017)

heartless bastards


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## redcogs (Oct 5, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Not good.
> Got awarded 7 points for daily living and 4 points for mobility which is at lest 13 points more than the DWP twats awarded.
> 2 points for cooking a meal. Needs to use an aid or appliance.
> What aids are there to stop me blowing myself up when I forget to light the gas stove then eventually do?
> ...



fuckers..


----------



## fishfinger (Oct 5, 2017)

Really sorry to hear your news WouldBe


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## equationgirl (Oct 5, 2017)

Fucking cockweasels WouldBe utter fucking cockweasels


----------



## Libertad (Oct 5, 2017)

That's all a bit shit WouldBe, I'm sorry.


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## WouldBe (Oct 6, 2017)

Not sure how I feel at the moment apart from being numb.


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## Celyn (Oct 6, 2017)

It's horrible, WouldBe.


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## iona (Oct 6, 2017)

Fucksake WouldBe  Do you have another stage of appeal you can take it to? It shouldn't be this hard


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## iona (Oct 6, 2017)

Does anyone know when PIP payments are started from (do they backdate to face-to-face, form sent or received, initial phone call...)?

I've just noticed some money's gone into my account, but no letter yet so no idea what I've been awarded.


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## WouldBe (Oct 7, 2017)

iona said:


> Fucksake WouldBe  Do you have another stage of appeal you can take it to? It shouldn't be this hard


There is but god knows how long it will take to get through that. 

I'll look into it next week.


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## WouldBe (Oct 7, 2017)

iona said:


> Does anyone know when PIP payments are started from (do they backdate to face-to-face, form sent or received, initial phone call...)?
> 
> I've just noticed some money's gone into my account, but no letter yet so no idea what I've been awarded.


AFAIK it starts from when you applied for it.


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> There is but god knows how long it will take to get through that.
> 
> I'll look into it next week.



EDIT: Nevermind, I noticed that you've had a tribunal already.


----------



## Jackobi (Oct 7, 2017)

iona said:


> Does anyone know when PIP payments are started from (do they backdate to face-to-face, form sent or received, initial phone call...)?
> 
> I've just noticed some money's gone into my account, but no letter yet so no idea what I've been awarded.



As long as you submitted the application form within the time limit specified, your payments will start from the date which you phoned and asked for the form.


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## iona (Oct 7, 2017)

Thanks WouldBe and Jackobi

Letter came today - been given standard rate daily living, as I thought. I got 10 points in total; only 2 ("needs prompting") for "mixing with people". Think I should have got 4 points there ("needs social support") - which would have given me the points for enhanced rate - as I'm definitely not able to socialise "reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and as often as needed" without that support, or even _with_ that support much of the time, although I do just about manage on my good days (which are nothing like 50% of the time).

Not sure whether to risk an appeal or just be grateful for what I've got.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2017)

sorry to hear that WouldBe


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 7, 2017)

iona said:


> Thanks WouldBe and Jackobi
> 
> Letter came today - been given standard rate daily living, as I thought. I got 10 points in total; only 2 ("needs prompting") for "mixing with people". Think I should have got 4 points there ("needs social support") - which would have given me the points for enhanced rate - as I'm definitely not able to socialise "reliably, in a timely fashion, repeatedly and as often as needed" without that support, or even _with_ that support much of the time, although I do just about manage on my good days (which are nothing like 50% of the time).
> 
> Not sure whether to risk an appeal or just be grateful for what I've got.


if you've been awarded 10 pts surely they can't take those away. Does anyone here know if appeals can make things worse?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2017)

iona sorry you didn't get enough points 

It shouldn't be this hard for people to get the support they need.


----------



## iona (Oct 7, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> if you've been awarded 10 pts surely they can't take those away. Does anyone here know if appeals can make things worse?



Of course they can, this is the DWP we're talking about.


----------



## iona (Oct 7, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> iona sorry you didn't get enough points
> 
> It shouldn't be this hard for people to get the support they need.



I got enough points for standard rate daily living  That's more than many others get first go round.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2017)

iona said:


> I got enough points for standard rate daily living  That's more than many others get first go round.


At least that's something x


----------



## fishfinger (Oct 7, 2017)

iona pleased to hear that you managed to get some sort of award. If it's not what you believe you should have been awarded, then have you asked for a mandatory reconsideration?


----------



## chainsawjob (Oct 8, 2017)

Really sorry to hear how it went WouldBe, it's horrible how hostile and heartless it all is.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 8, 2017)

iona said:


> Not sure whether to risk an appeal or just be grateful for what I've got.



Difficult. Don't know what I'd do tbh. Glad you got something though, as you say, a lot don't first time round, in the current climate.


----------



## chainsawjob (Oct 8, 2017)

I got my appeal in last week, it felt like a huge weight that had been hanging over me had been lifted. It's only an appeal against them deciding I didn't have a good enough reason for not attending the assessment though, to decide whether they will actually arrange me another one.  And I have to go before a tribunal to argue this, it's madness really. Think I might change my mind and ask them to decide it on the papers though.  Not sure what else I can say about why I didn't attend, and why I feel I gave a good enough and reasonable reason (even though the advice seems to be that attending in person gives you a better chance of being successful).  I've given them pages of reasons and evidence.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 9, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> if you've been awarded 10 pts surely they can't take those away. Does anyone here know if appeals can make things worse?



They *can* make things worse, but current odds are running at just over 60% of appeals being revised in favour of the claimant, so a two-in-three chance of winning, more or less.  Thing is, tribunals refer to case law, and actually scrutinise all the paperwork, whereas the DWP's "decision maker" merely refers to a manual to decide whether or not you should score on certain grounds.  The issue there is that however fluent and detailed your answer, you may lose out because the "decision maker" *interprets* your answer outside the context in which you've answered it.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 9, 2017)

Just got a letter from the DWP explaining what I scored on my ESA assessment that I requested. I was awarded just 15 points for not being able to walk 50m and no points for anything else including stuff covered by their work psychology report. I was only awarded 4 points for pip (walk 50-200m). Why is there no fucking consistency between departments?


----------



## iona (Oct 9, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> iona pleased to hear that you managed to get some sort of award. If it's not what you believe you should have been awarded, then have you asked for a mandatory reconsideration?



I don't know what I believe I should have been awarded, tbh 

The whole process is such a headfuck, they make you feel like you're a blagger who's not entitled to anything and at the same time you get so used to fighting for what you are due that it's hard to tell when to stop.

I don't think I should have got just 2 points for that descriptor, but the wording makes it difficult to tell - for me it's more a case of managing, barely, without support or promoting on a good day but not being able to mix with people at all even with support much of the rest of the time. I don't fit neatly into one category. And how often is "regularly, as often as required, etc"? I genuinely have no idea what would be considered "normal" and how far away from that I am. I don't think I _feel_ "*severely* limited in my ability to carry out daily living tasks" compared to some other people so maybe trying for enhanced rate is just being greedy? Or maybe I'm way more fucked than I realised and I definitely should've got it.

Gonna speak to my support worker this week and see what he thinks. Letter is dated 2nd October so I've got a couple of weeks for the MR if I do decide to.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 9, 2017)

It's such a head-fuck WouldBe, it's a joke that there is such inconsistency (although joke is much too polite a word, maybe just bollocks is more suitable), I'm sorry you're going through both PIP and ESA.

I think evidence from ESA reports can be taken into consideration for PIP decisions, but I'm not sure if you're at the end of the road with PIP or whether there is further you can/are able/want to take it.

Edit: Cross-posted with iona, notice that head-fuck seems to be the term that springs to mind not just with me


----------



## chainsawjob (Oct 9, 2017)

Yes it's very difficult to tell with the descriptors whether you meet the criteria for however many points iona. I hope your support worker will be able to advise you.  Or I have found Benefits and Work to be very good for advice online. I have membership and access to their guides to filling in the ESA forms, and what you need to show to meet the criteria, how best to describe how things affect your day to day functioning, let me know if it would help to see the guides.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Oct 9, 2017)

Does anyone have any recommendations for recording equipment please?  My brother received his home assessment appointment for pip today,  19th Oct.  Cheaper the better as he's been without much money since suffering his stroke in April.  Thanks muchly.


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## WouldBe (Oct 10, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> Does anyone have any recommendations for recording equipment please?  My brother received his home assessment appointment for pip today,  19th Oct.  Cheaper the better as he's been without much money since suffering his stroke in April.  Thanks muchly.


Use anything you can get your hands on. Apparently there are no rules regarding recording assessments so there can't be any rules regarding what you use.

If you need to go to tribunal the tribunal can accept evidence that would be rejected by a court of law.


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## WouldBe (Oct 10, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> It's such a head-fuck WouldBe, it's a joke that there is such inconsistency (although joke is much too polite a word, maybe just bollocks is more suitable), I'm sorry you're going through both PIP and ESA.
> 
> I think evidence from ESA reports can be taken into consideration for PIP decisions, but I'm not sure if you're at the end of the road with PIP or whether there is further you can/are able/want to take it.
> 
> Edit: Cross-posted with iona, notice that head-fuck seems to be the term that springs to mind not just with me


Fortunately I've been awarded ESA support group so don't need to worry about that.

As for PIP I will be taking it as far as possible because it's clearly wrong. I'm sure they didn't take into account the thorough work psychology test into account. I've looked us what a mini mental state exam should consist of and it's 11 questions, none of which I was asked in any shape or form and their attempt at testing my maths didn't take into account that I had learned the answer through simple repetition. The OT didn't seem to know what she was on about. She suggested I needed to climb the stairs more to improve my quads. I immediately knew there was something wrong with that statement but it took me 3 hours for it to finally dawn that the reason I had a downstairs loo fitted was because I was finding it increasingly difficult to climb the stairs to start with. If climbing stairs was good for my leg problems the hill walking should also be good for me except it was while hill walking that the knee problem started in the first place. One of the first things the GP did was remind me we were only a stones throw from the bypass which is one of the places I suggested in my mandatory reconsideration letter would be a good place to top myself.  Yeah thanks a fucking lot for that doc.


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## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Fortunately I've been awarded ESA support group so don't need to worry about that.
> 
> As for PIP I will be taking it as far as possible because it's clearly wrong. I'm sure they didn't take into account the thorough work psychology test into account. I've looked us what a mini mental state exam should consist of and it's 11 questions, none of which I was asked in any shape or form and their attempt at testing my maths didn't take into account that I had learned the answer through simple repetition. The OT didn't seem to know what she was on about. She suggested I needed to climb the stairs more to improve my quads. I immediately knew there was something wrong with that statement but it took me 3 hours for it to finally dawn that the reason I had a downstairs loo fitted was because I was finding it increasingly difficult to climb the stairs to start with. If climbing stairs was good for my leg problems the hill walking should also be good for me except it was while hill walking that the knee problem started in the first place. One of the first things the GP did was remind me we were only a stones throw from the bypass which is one of the places I suggested in my mandatory reconsideration letter would be a good place to top myself.  Yeah thanks a fucking lot for that doc.


They are without conscience.


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## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2017)

The Victoria Derbyshire radio programme is looking at disability assessments today, and why they're unfair. 

Having looked at the article about it on the BBC website, I'm not convinced it will be news to anyone on this thread - the article contains a number of inaccuracies around recordings, including 'exceptionally, the tribunal allowed a transcript of a covert recording to be used' - however at least it brings the topic into mainstream news.


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## existentialist (Oct 16, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> The Victoria Derbyshire radio programme is looking at disability assessments today, and why they're unfair.
> 
> Having looked at the article about it on the BBC website, I'm not convinced it will be news to anyone on this thread - the article contains a number of inaccuracies around recordings, including 'exceptionally, the tribunal allowed a transcript of a covert recording to be used' - however at least it brings the topic into mainstream news.


Any of this sort of thing is good, as it counters the official narrative (ooh, where's me tinfoil hat?) that says it's all about the government helping people into work, etc., blah.


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## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2017)

existentialist said:


> Any of this sort of thing is good, as it counters the official narrative (ooh, where's me tinfoil hat?) that says it's all about the government helping people into work, etc., blah.


I just wish they'd done a better job on the research. Lots of the facts were iffy.


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## doodlelogic (Oct 16, 2017)

Good clip


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## equationgirl (Oct 16, 2017)

Unfortunately, does this not alert the assessors to covert recordings?


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## existentialist (Oct 19, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> Unfortunately, does this not alert the assessors to covert recordings?


I would guess that the particular circles of hell in which these assessor types and their managers gather were already abuzz with talk about covert recordings. Since DWP seems to be relying on threats and fear to prevent people standing up for their rights, though, I imagine that someone's probably issued an edict saying that they mustn't search people for devices, etc.

Probably all they could do would be to ask the claimant if they're recording the assessment, but there would be nothing that they could do if the client denied it.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 19, 2017)

Here's an article on recording assessments xsunnysuex Back to the age of the cassette for recording benefits medicals I'll see if I can come up with anything else.

I looked into buying two cheap portable tape recorders, I think they were about £20 each though


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## WouldBe (Oct 19, 2017)

If the wankers played fair there would be no need for secret recordings. 

I've sent in a request for a 'statement of reasons' and a copy of the notes from my tribunal. I've apologised at the end of the letter in case it's late (I don't think it is) as the stress of the tribunal has caused my chronic fatigue to flare up and I've not been able to anything more that eat and sleep for the last fortnight. Sounds like grounds for an assault charge to me.


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## SaskiaJayne (Oct 20, 2017)

Reasonable eventual success story. Relative of mine who has schizophrenia was on dla middle care lower mobility. Went to assessment & got pips at standard rate & no mobility so a cut of £22 pw. Ended up at appeal & award was pips enhanced rate & lower rate mobility so an increase of about £22  a week from their dla payments. It does seem that the assessment means nothing & sole aim is to cut claimant's payment whatever.

Ironically had the pips award been at enhanced rate in the first place with no mobility award then it would have been same as their dla payment so they would have been happy with that but because they were cut down we appealed & ended up with a higher payment.


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## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2017)

So many people think the system will treat them fairly, WouldBe and it should be, after all, it should be looking after and protecting them. Not throwing them to the wolves or stressing them beyond endurance.


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## xsunnysuex (Oct 20, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Here's an article on recording assessments xsunnysuex Back to the age of the cassette for recording benefits medicals I'll see if I can come up with anything else.
> 
> I looked into buying two cheap portable tape recorders, I think they were about £20 each though


Thank you.  My brother had his assessment yesterday.  I managed to get two tape recorders from ebay.  Despite us calling the dwp,  they did not have it down as being recorded.  But the assessor said he was fine with it.
My brother had a home visit.	He said the assessor was fairly pleasant.  But as we all know.  That counts for nothing.


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## WouldBe (Oct 20, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> So many people think the system will treat them fairly, WouldBe and it should be, after all, it should be looking after and protecting them. Not throwing them to the wolves or stressing them beyond endurance.


I saw the other day on the Benefits and works site that Frank Fields(?) MP is chairing a committee looking into the cockups of the DLA to PIP transfer and is wanting to hear from claimants who have gone through the process.


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## equationgirl (Oct 20, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I saw the other day on the Benefits and works site that Frank Fields(?) MP is chairing a committee looking into the cockups of the DLA to PIP transfer and is wanting to hear from claimants who have gone through the process.


I hope you will be contacting them


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## Pac man (Oct 21, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I saw the other day on the Benefits and works site that Frank Fields(?) MP is chairing a committee looking into the cockups of the DLA to PIP transfer and is wanting to hear from claimants who have gone through the process.


Thats got to be a good thing..I watched the select committees investigation into Philip green et al, which Field chaired and he came across as a really fair, nice guy.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 21, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I saw the other day on the Benefits and works site that Frank Fields(?) MP is chairing a committee looking into the cockups of the DLA to PIP transfer and is wanting to hear from claimants who have gone through the process.


I might contact them myself. To point out the inflexibility in the system. And how ridiculous it is they're taking me to tribunal because I failed to go to the assessment due to legitimate health reasons that I'd already told them about on my PIP form.  The money wasted on hoop-jumping, and the interminable process that makes claiming benefits as difficult as possible, is scandalous. And wrong.


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## WouldBe (Oct 21, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> I hope you will be contacting them


Too right I will and so should anyone else who has been through this farce.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 22, 2017)

Here's the Benefits and Work article that mentions the inquiry by the  Commons Select Committee on Work and Pensions chaired by Frank Field into PIP and ESA assessments:

Post a comment on the Parliament website about PIP and ESA assessments

And here's the link to comment online to the inquiry:

Web forum: PIP and ESA Assessments

It closes on November 10th.  There's been 900 comments so far.


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## fishfinger (Oct 25, 2017)

I've just heard from the tribunals service. My appeal is in about 3 weeks time. I feel really sick.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 26, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> I've just heard from the tribunals service. My appeal is in about 3 weeks time. I feel really sick.


It's OK, try not to worry, we're here. Can someone go with you,?


----------



## BCBlues (Oct 26, 2017)

fishfinger said:


> I've just heard from the tribunals service. My appeal is in about 3 weeks time. I feel really sick.



The actual tribunal itself in my own experience is always like "wow someone is actually listening " so like equationgirl  says try not to worry, try get someone to go along with you. You've worked hard to get this far don't let the buggers get you down now.


----------



## chainsawjob (Oct 26, 2017)

Sympathies and solidarity fishfinger, horrible having to wait it out now you've got the date, following on from all the waiting it out you've already had to do. But yeah, vent here... and hopefully fingerscrossed it will be as BCBlues says.  And I second don't let the buggers grind you down, you're not alone in that boat


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## WouldBe (Oct 26, 2017)

BCBlues said:


> The actual tribunal itself in my own experience is always like "wow someone is actually listening "


It's nice when that happens. I've had 3 tribunals so far and 2 of them were the complete opposite. 

fishfinger Hope you have a good one and it goes your way.


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## fishfinger (Oct 26, 2017)

Thanks. My wife will be coming with me.


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## pogo 10 (Oct 26, 2017)

Good luck fishfinger.


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## spirals (Oct 26, 2017)

I have got my f2f home assessment for PIP in 30 mins  I don't want the treacherous non trustworthy tossers in my home  I didn't even ask for a home assessment


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## fishfinger (Oct 26, 2017)

Best of luck spirals


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## pogo 10 (Oct 26, 2017)

spirals said:


> I have got my f2f home assessment for PIP in 30 mins  I don't want the treacherous non trustworthy tossers in my home  I didn't even ask for a home assessment


Good luck, deep breaths.


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## chainsawjob (Oct 26, 2017)

Good luck spirals


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## spirals (Oct 26, 2017)

The assessor was quite nice, she said she couldn't understand why she was here only a year after my last assessment but I guess we will see what happens...


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## scifisam (Oct 29, 2017)

Good luck spirals and fishfinger


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## WouldBe (Oct 30, 2017)

Had a letter from tribunals service on Sat acknowledging my request for a statement of reasons and copy of notes. Apparently they need to put it before a judge to decide if I get it or not. WTF happened to the data protections act / freedom of information?


----------



## iona (Oct 30, 2017)

Just panic-written my mand rec letter (I thought I had til the 6th to decide. Nope, that's when they sent my backpay - I have until the 2nd) 

Still not sure whether I actually want to appeal, still no clue what I actually _should_ be getting...

:shrug:


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 30, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Had a letter from tribunals service on Sat acknowledging my request for a statement of reasons and copy of notes. Apparently they need to put it before a judge to decide if I get it or not. WTF happened to the data protections act / freedom of information?


I think that's a question worth asking them.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 1, 2017)

Interesting interview on Radio 4 this lunch hour. I didn't catch the start of it, so not sure what programme or the exact time but about 12.15 ish - an ex Atos assesssor was saying what he thought about the system. 

One of the reasons he resigned was he said they routinely overbooked appointments by upto 40% and had to send people home, and he saw the pain, anxiety and the unaffordable travel expense that this caused and didn't think it was right. Hummph, that explains a lot.


----------



## Libertad (Nov 1, 2017)

friendofdorothy said:


> Interesting interview on Radio 4 this lunch hour. I didn't catch the start of it, so not sure what programme or the exact time but about 12.15 ish - an ex Atos assesssor was saying what he thought about the system.
> 
> One of the reasons he resigned was he said they routinely overbooked appointments by upto 40% and had to send people home, and he saw the pain, anxiety and the unaffordable travel expense that this caused and didn't think it was right. Hummph, that explains a lot.



Here it is:
BBC Radio 4 - You and Yours, Personal Independence Payment, Christmas decorations, Pokies


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 6, 2017)

My brother has just been awarded enhanced pip for daily living. And standard rate for mobility after his stroke.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 6, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> My brother has just been awarded enhanced pip for daily living. And standard rate for mobility after his stroke.


so glad to hear it!


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 6, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> My brother has just been awarded enhanced pip for daily living. And standard rate for mobility after his stroke.


That's a fab bit of news Sue, hope he feels a bit better now x well done you x


----------



## xsunnysuex (Nov 6, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> That's a fab bit of news Sue, hope he feels a bit better now


He does thank you.  Personally I feel he should have received enhanced for both.  But it was awarded for 3yrs.  And he's received a nice back payment.  I think he's happy to leave it as it is.   I don't really think he's strong enough to deal with anything else right now.


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## equationgirl (Nov 7, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> He does thank you.  Personally I feel he should have received enhanced for both.  But it was awarded for 3yrs.  And he's received a nice back payment.  I think he's happy to leave it as it is.   I don't really think he's strong enough to deal with anything else right now.


It's a start, he can always revisit the issue when it's up for renewal and he hopefully feels stronger.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 7, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Here's the Benefits and Work article that mentions the inquiry by the  Commons Select Committee on Work and Pensions chaired by Frank Field into PIP and ESA assessments:
> 
> Post a comment on the Parliament website about PIP and ESA assessments
> 
> ...


Got round to doing it yesterday. 2900 comments so far. 

Sister got her statement of reasons from her tribunal the other day. From what she can make out unless you have been diagnosed with a problem by a consultant and are continuously under their care then that problem doesn't count. WTF?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 7, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Got round to doing it yesterday. 2900 comments so far.
> 
> Sister got her statement of reasons from her tribunal the other day. From what she can make out unless you have been diagnosed with a problem by a consultant and are continuously under their care then that problem doesn't count. WTF?



Sadly, this has been a position that the DWP has increasingly enforced, so not only do you have to deal with DWP bureaucracy, you also have to convince your GP to refer you, AND you have to get a favourable report from the consultant IF your GP refers you.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 8, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> Got round to doing it yesterday. 2900 comments so far.



Me too. What a catalogue of people being unfairly treated, lied about, and given the wrong decisions, just from reading a few of the comments 



WouldBe said:


> Sister got her statement of reasons from her tribunal the other day. From what she can make out unless you have been diagnosed with a problem by a consultant and are continuously under their care then that problem doesn't count. WTF?



WTF indeed  Fuckers.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 8, 2017)

Glad to hear your news about your brother xsunnysuex


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 8, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Glad to hear your news about your brother xsunnysuex


Thank you x


----------



## chainsawjob (Nov 8, 2017)

iona said:


> Just panic-written my mand rec letter (I thought I had til the 6th to decide. Nope, that's when they sent my backpay - I have until the 2nd)
> 
> Still not sure whether I actually want to appeal, still no clue what I actually _should_ be getting...
> 
> :shrug:



Missed this. So hard to know what to do and whether it's a gamble. I guess you can always pull out of the process (before the appeal stage) if you decide against it. At least you have that option now to go for it, or not. It's a headfuck. Have you/are you able to get any further advice on whether you've been put on the right level?


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## iona (Nov 8, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Missed this. So hard to know what to do and whether it's a gamble. I guess you can always pull out of the process (before the appeal stage) if you decide against it. At least you have that option now to go for it, or not. It's a headfuck. Have you/are you able to get any further advice on whether you've been put on the right level?



My keyworker listened to my concerns regarding whether or not I should appeal and said "well, I'll support you with whatever you decide"

I do still think I should have been awarded more than two points for "needing prompting" to mix with people, but a part of me feels uneasy about getting enhanced rate (which two more points would mean - I originally got 10 points for daily living). I feel like a fraud putting myself in the same group as people who are much more disabled than me, even though I think I probably meet the descriptors. Having an "invisible disability" (there's other stuff but autism is my main issue) and being able-bodied make it harder too - not being able to cook because of arthritis is easier to explain than not cooking (or taking more than three hours to chop some veg for pasta sauce, like I did the other day) because of executive dysfunction and burnout.

Sod's law, this month has been almost all good days so far  which is unusual - normally I reach burnout in a week or less, if I'm busy. So of course I feel even more of a hypocrite than usual atm  Gonna try keeping a diary of what I struggled with or couldn't do on my bad days, because there's no way I could write an appeal letter in that state and I think it's easy to forget when I'm doing ok.

Sorry, massive brain dump there  But yeah, just keeping my options open for now and I can always decide not to appeal the mand rec.

Are you still waiting on your appeal for not showing up when they wouldn't give you a date you could get to?


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## chainsawjob (Nov 10, 2017)

I totally relate to what you say iona about feeling a hypocrite when you have good days/even weeks or whole months. I am the same, my condition fluctuates a lot. People see (or hear about) me out and about, able to do things, and will not understand or believe there are long periods when I cannot manage doing any of these things. It's invisible as you say, and when I am badly suffering from symptoms, people just won't often get to know about it because I don't go out, or post on the internet or speak to anybody. Yes on my bad days there's no way I could write an appeal either. And I find it hard to remember how bad things get when I am having a 'good' phase. Yes, when you compare yourself to others who might be given the same rate but they are more 'obviously' disabled by their conditions, it feels like you're being a fraud, but I guess it's very individual how much a condition affects your ability to do things, and it's much less easy to quantify that (or for others to observe that) for a non-physical disability/condition.



iona said:


> Are you still waiting on your appeal for not showing up when they wouldn't give you a date you could get to?



A few days ago I got a letter inviting me to a new face to face assessment  (At first I thought it was a tribual date, because it was from Independent Assessment Services who I'd never heard of. But it turns out that's Atos's new name (cos Atos has now got such a bad rep I guess). So from this I'm guessing I have successfully appealed  !! Or the appeal was thrown out by the tribunal people as the ridiculous waste of time that it was 

Of course the new date I was sent was in exactly the same place I told them I couldn't attend last time  I have rearranged (the letter said I could), to one that is nearer to where I live, and have got someone to come with me. Both times I've had to rearrange, there have been appointments available _nearer_ to where I live, and _sooner_ (fuck that!) than my original appointment  So their claim that the computer just spits out the appointment that's soonest and is within 1 1/2 hours travel (my original ones would have taken me longer than that), and that's why you don't always get the nearest assessment centre, is clearly spurious/bollocks.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 14, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> I have rearranged (the letter said I could), to one that is nearer to where I live



I've now got the letter confirming the details, and it's not fucking where I thought it was going to be! I'd asked for an appointment in the city nearest to me, which is relatively straightforward to get to by public transport, and which I'm familiar with. And they'd said yes we'll give you an appointment in that city. But the place I've got to go to is in that city only in the sense that it appears in the postal address. The place is actually in a village six miles outside the city (in the opposite direction to where I live ofc) in a unit on an industrial estate which is hard to get to by public transport  Instead of at the much more convenient assessment place in the city centre which I thought they meant (and with hindsight I should have asked for the actual address when I arranged it, I will know to next time  ). I can see myself wandering round a massive industrial estate trying to find the flipping thing. It's just fucking hurdle after hurdle with this process. I don't expect I'll be able to change it, cos I've used up all my 'lives'. It's just more stress


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## iona (Nov 14, 2017)

Jesus chainsawjob 

Would it be worth phoning just to see if you can rearrange? Something along the line of "This appointment has been booked in error. I was offered an appointment on [time & date] at [specific assessment centre], however the confirmation letter I received shows my appointment having been booked at [other assessment centre] which I did not agree to" maybe, and just keep to that apt if they say no? Understand if you'd rather leave it after all the previous shit though.

Good luck at the assessment anyway, hope you get someone who's not a complete cunt.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 14, 2017)

Thanks iona I may give that idea a go. And yeah fingers-crossed on who I get, cheers.


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## Libertad (Nov 14, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks iona I may give that idea a go. And yeah fingers-crossed on who I get, cheers.



Best of luck chainsawjob.


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## WouldBe (Nov 14, 2017)

What a pile of shite. 

Hope you can get it rearranged chainsawjob and good luck.


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## equationgirl (Nov 14, 2017)

I'd try what iona suggested, it's worth a shot especially as that place sounds a bit dubious.


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## wtfftw (Nov 14, 2017)

Could you get a taxi from somewhere sensible then claim it back? My travel expenses cheque came through in less than a month (dunno why it was a cheque when I gave my bank details ffs).


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## chainsawjob (Nov 15, 2017)

Thanks everyone, it's really nice to have support 

I tried to rearrange it but they said no. I think I'll go with the suggestion of a taxi for the last part of the journey, I'll already have taken a bus and two trains by then. How do you claim it back wtfftw? Do you have to tell them in advance that you want to claim for travel? And can I claim for the rest of it too? Never occurred to me.

The Atos guy I spoke to was as helpful as he could be, and apologetic that I'd been given the impression the assessment was somewhere else. He said they'd be more specific in future. But unfortunately he couldn't do anything.I asked him what the rules were on how far you can be expected to travel for an assessment. This was interesting, it's either up to 60 miles, or 1 1/2 hours travel. And by travel they only mean the bits where you're actually moving, it doesn't include waiting for connections. Crap isn't it.

And I got a letter today from the Tribunal Service. I thought my appeal had been dropped, since the DWP have decided to give me another appointment for an assessment. But no, the letter says I need to go to a tribunal for them to decide whether I gave good reason for not attending my assessment in June, and for it to be decided whether my DLA can be reinstated from when they stopped it in July  I sorta thought/hoped that might happen anyway (and was going to ask them for it), since they appear to have conceded that I'm entitled to another assessment date, and they've reopened my PIP claim. So in theory I thought I ought still to be on the DLA which they stopped when they closed my PIP claim for 'not attending'. They can't have it both ways can they, either my claim was closed wrongly, or it wasn't. And they seem to be saying it was. Ofc it's too much to hope that this could be at all straightforward 

Jeez


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## iona (Nov 15, 2017)

chainsawjob iirc you can claim travel expenses back, but if you need a taxi rather than driving or taking public transport that has to be agreed in advance or they may not pay. You should have got a leaflet with your appointment letter which I think mentions this? Can dig mine out if not, it was from the same service (the ex-ATOS lot, whatever they're calling themselves now).


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 15, 2017)

sorry it can't be changed. Expecting and ill person to travel up to 60 miles is shit. 

Ask in advance about the travel, are you allowed to get a taxi the whole way for example (especially if your condition can be affected by travel) and what they are willing to remburse you for and what sort of receipts they will accept etc. 

I recall they asked a lot of questions about how we reached the assesssment - I imagine one of their standard phrases on their proforma report probably says something like 'has no problem using public transport for 60 mile journeys involving 4 changes'


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 15, 2017)

a slight tangent, but anyone know what the reclaim process is for ESA these days?

a friend is currently in the clink on remand - a bit fuzzy on the detail but it was some sort of argument that got out of hand, and probably connected with the mental health issues that are why he was on ESA.

lawyers are suggesting it will probably be a fairly short sentence / time already served on remand so hoping he will be out fairly soon.

ESA got stopped when he went inside, he now seems to think he won't be able to go back on ESA which sounds like bollocks, although his part of the world has gone live on universal clusterfuck since his last claim.

Anyone able to offer any pointers?  I am getting ever more out of touch on this sort of thing...


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## chainsawjob (Nov 16, 2017)

There's a 12 week linking rule that means you can go back on the same level of benefits after a break of up to 12 weeks, without having to go through the whole process of making a new claim I think, but I can't find a link that explains it very clearly. It used to be longer but that entitlement got scrapped with changes brought in in 2012. I don't know how/whether UC affects this. Perhaps someone else knows more, or you might need to get advice from a benefit organisation.

Good luck to your friend Puddy_Tat.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 16, 2017)

This is useful, a list of PIP assessment centres with info on each about parking, access (lifts, whether it's level, how far from car to door), how near to public transport, etc. Mine says leave plenty of time as it's hard to find  

PIP assessment centres


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## equationgirl (Nov 16, 2017)

60 miles or 90 minutes travel time chainsawjob is  How is anybody in pain, seriously unwell, physically or mentally limited in any way supposed to manage that both ways?? 

Christ. 

It beggars belief claimants aren't automatically scheduled at the centre nearest to them or easiest to get to. But then heaven forbid anything is made easier by this regime.


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## equationgirl (Nov 16, 2017)

chainsawjob said:


> This is useful, a list of PIP assessment centres with info on each about parking, access (lifts, whether it's level, how far from car to door), how near to public transport, etc. Mine says leave plenty of time as it's hard to find
> 
> PIP assessment centres


That's interesting - there is one single centre covering most of the West of Scotland north of Ayr. One centre for Paisley, greenock, Dumbarton, Helensburgh, motherwell, lanark and so on. Edinburgh has three, dundee has two, even tiny north Berwick has one. The west coast, with the large greater Glasgow and Clyde valley areas gets only one? Unbelievable. 

Still, could be worse. Wonder what happens to people on the islands?


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## equationgirl (Nov 16, 2017)

equationgirl said:


> 60 miles or 90 minutes travel time chainsawjob is  How is anybody in pain, seriously unwell, physically or mentally limited in any way supposed to manage that both ways??
> 
> Christ.
> 
> It beggars belief claimants aren't automatically scheduled at the centre nearest to them or easiest to get to. But then heaven forbid anything is made easier by this regime.


For reference, my work is approximately 6miles from home. I used to get public transport but got too exhausted travelling an hour each way, so now I get a lift, which takes about 15 minutes. I'm still exhausted. I could not travel 60 miles most days.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 20, 2017)

I spoke to the Tribunal people, and to the DWP, and the upshot was that even though the DWP have decided I _am_ entitled to a new assessment date (and therefore presumably that I gave 'good reason' for not attending my previous assessment), I will _still_ have to go to Tribunal to appeal the fact they stopped my DLA for 'failing to attend'. They said only a judge could make the decision to reinstate my DLA whilst I'm still in the process of applying for PIP, that the DWP didn't have the power to do this (which I find hard to believe). I can't get my head round it, it makes no sense  

I'm well fed up of all of this now.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 20, 2017)

it makes no sense ((chainsawjob ))


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## equationgirl (Nov 20, 2017)

Applying logic to this will just make your brain explode chainsawjob.


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## existentialist (Nov 20, 2017)

A random thought. How is it that the "Making Work Pay" signs plastered over every Jobcentre window aren't being comprehensively vandalised? Either by a nice "Shit" appended in similar typeface, or by means of a brick?

Someone should design a nice stick-on addition, if only to save the windows from bricks.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 21, 2017)

existentialist said:


> A random thought. How is it that the "Making Work Pay" signs plastered over every Jobcentre window aren't being comprehensively vandalised? Either by a nice "Shit" appended in similar typeface, or by means of a brick?
> 
> Someone should design a nice stick-on addition, if only to save the windows from bricks.



"Shit" or "Less" appended as a suffix, "Not" or "Fuck" added as a prefix.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 23, 2017)

My PIP assessment is done. A lovely Urb helped me out with a lift  No knowing how it went. It lasted 50 minutes and seemed quite thorough. I wanted to make sure I wasn't rushed, or not allowed time to give full answers. The assessor was a paramedic, I asked her what her knowledge and experience of mental health was, and she said she had experience through her job in the ambulance service. Not exactly 100% relevant, or sufficient training in mental health I wouldn't think, imo.

I recorded it all on my phone (didn't decide until the last minute whether to do this or not, and whether to be up front and ask, but in the end I went with hiding my phone under my coat and not asking, it seems to have recorded ok). Plus the friend that came with me took notes. Transcribing it now, I can see that I didn't qualify my answers enough. 'Can you do this?' 'Yes, but not when... and only if... and only for this long...'. If it would help anyone I can give a list of the questions I was asked. But tbh they were all ones listed in the Benefits and Work guide (a list of a possible I dunno 60 odd questions, maybe more). The guide had some useful advice on what to expect and what to be aware of.

Oh, the list of PIP assessment centres wasn't wrong when it said mine was hard to find! I nearly missed my appointment because we couldn't find it  It was indeed 45 minutes wandering round industrial estates, asking people who sent us in the wrong direction, trying to ring up the centre, and finding it wasn't possible to speak to them directly, only to someone somewhere else who had no idea, etc etc Made for a nice relaxed arrival


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## crossthebreeze (Nov 23, 2017)

How ridiculous that they sent you somewhere so hard to find chainsawjob.  Fingers cross you get the result you need.


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## CookieRocks (Nov 25, 2017)

Hi all.

Just joined but have been a long time lurker.. I mean behind the scenes reader 

So, I have been referred to the Social Care Team earlier this year, and as part of the package, I was given a Benefits Advisor who convinced me to apply for PIP (which I have avoided, due to the difficulty in qualifying for it). So, I've just survived with my ESA SG.

Anyways, I applied for PIP in July, and was given a extremely short notice Assessment date end of October which I cancelled and requested a Home Assessment as I had a severe case of Bronchitis at the time. Surprisingly IAS (Formerly Atos) offered The Home Assessment which took place first week of November.

Received decision today Standard Care and Standard Mobility which is all well and good, actually surprised it went so smoothly until this point, was expecting a battle which I would have found hard to fight.

Here is the where I need some advice. Having read through their decision, and where I was awarded points, I think I should definitely have been awarded points with descriptors where I was given 0 points, and parts where I think I should have been awarded more points than have been awarded.

Obviously, I have one month from date of letter (20/11), but I'm not sure if I should go for the Mandatory Reconsideration?

I've read around that there is a likelihood that they could completely remove the award?

I've read that their is no actual time limit for them to make their decision, therefore, during the MR, will the current award be paid whilst they go through the process, or does it stop completely until they decide on a verdict?

But, I genuinely believe that I should have been awarded more points. A lot of their long winded decision explanation is wrong and very assumptive and I don't think the Nurse HCP who did the assessment gave a realistic picture of the situation, or included in their report important things that I explained during the assessment. If fact, some of my health conditions they needed me spell out as they had never heard of it, understandable as CES is quite rare.

Hopefully I can get some advice or viewpoints from others here who have been through the process of PIP and MR.

Sorry I didn't realise my post would be this long. Hope I've posted it in the correct Forum/ Thread.

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards


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## xsunnysuex (Nov 25, 2017)

Can't answer any of your questions CookieRocks.  But welcome.  x


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## CookieRocks (Nov 25, 2017)

xsunnysuex said:


> Can't answer any of your questions CookieRocks.  But welcome.  x



Thanks for the welcome xsunnysuex


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## Jackobi (Nov 25, 2017)

CookieRocks said:


> Received decision today Standard Care and Standard Mobility which is all well and good, actually surprised it went so smoothly until this point, was expecting a battle which I would have found hard to fight.
> 
> Here is the where I need some advice. Having read through their decision, and where I was awarded points, I think I should definitely have been awarded points with descriptors where I was given 0 points, and parts where I think I should have been awarded more points than have been awarded.
> 
> ...



A mandatory reconsideration or appeal can award you more points, fewer points or stay the same. For the enhanced rate at least 12 points are needed so unless you think that the points you should have been awarded will increase your points to 12 or more, an MR or appeal serves no purpose.

During an MR or appeal, you will still receive your current level of PIP until a decision is made. If you are awarded more points, and this changes your award from the standard rate to the enhanced rate, you will receive a backdated payment making up the difference between the two rates to the date of the original claim.


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## CookieRocks (Nov 25, 2017)

Jackobi said:


> A mandatory reconsideration or appeal can award you more points, fewer points or stay the same. For the enhanced rate at least 12 points are needed so unless you think that the points you should have been awarded will increase your points to 12 or more, an MR or appeal serves no purpose.
> 
> During an MR or appeal, you will still receive your current level of PIP until a decision is made. If you are awarded more points, and this changes your award from the standard rate to the enhanced rate, you will receive a backdated payment making up the difference between the two rates to the date of the original claim.



Thanks for this Jackobi.

Pretty much what I figured.

To get to 12, I'm:

4 points off for Care
2 points off for Mobility

I hate their term 'aid'... even though I need help dressing upper half, and washing upper half by another person, they seem to think an aid to do either will suffice.

ETA: going through the descriptors, if the correct points were added, they will both be at least 12 or more


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## spirals (Nov 27, 2017)

spirals said:


> The assessor was quite nice, she said she couldn't understand why she was here only a year after my last assessment but I guess we will see what happens...



Update, got the letter today, continuing on the same level award til 2023. I'm stunned as a friend who is far more ill than me and had a lot more evidence just recently got her mobility award taken from her despite being in a wheelchair the majority of the time.  It really does seem to depend on whether you get a decent honest person or not!


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## chainsawjob (Nov 27, 2017)

Congrats on your good news spirals. 

It's unfair that awards aren't made consistently, I'm sorry about your friend.


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## WouldBe (Nov 28, 2017)

spirals said:


> Update, got the letter today, continuing on the same level award til 2023. I'm stunned as a friend who is far more ill than me and had a lot more evidence just recently got her mobility award taken from her despite being in a wheelchair the majority of the time.  It really does seem to depend on whether you get a decent honest person or not!


It's shit isn't it.

In my sisters tribunal reasons letter the 'doctor' claimed she couldn't be depressed as she wasn't on a high enough dose of mirtazapine. Mirtazapine is prescribed for severe depression and she's on the maximum allowable dose.  It's about time these twats were struck off or jailed or preferably both.


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## xsunnysuex (Dec 1, 2017)

Just to let you all know calls to universal credit are now freephone numbers.  Sorry if it's already been posted. 

Free helplines for Universal Credit claimants - GOV.UK


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## iona (Dec 4, 2017)

I've just got my support worker to phone the jobcentre about a mystery payment - apparently it's Enhanced Disability Premium backpay. But according to this I shouldn't be entitled to EDP -



			
				gov.uk website said:
			
		

> To receive this, you must be under Pension Credit age.
> 
> You must receive the disability premium or income-related ESA, and one of the following:
> 
> ...


I don't get AFIP or DLA, I was only awarded standard rate for the daily living component of PIP and I'm in the WRAG for ESA (the report was full of outright lies but I was homeless at the time and didn't get round to appealing). I'm still waiting for my next ESA assessment afaik, so I think this means they've read my mandatory reconsideration request and changed me to enhanced rate? Or am I missing something? E2a - I got a PIP payment three days before that backpay and it was for the usual (daily living, standard rate) amount.


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## WouldBe (Dec 23, 2017)

I got my 'reasons for decision' letter from the tribunal this morning. What a farce. I'm sure they have used the same piece of evidence to backup something at one point then to refuse something almost exactly the same at another point. 

They claim that because I could attend the tribunal that I could socialise. Unless their idea of socialising is to attend job interviews or tribunals where you get a whole load of questions thrown at you then I can't. 

They also claim that I can walk more than 200m (which is a laugh) repeatedly and as often as I need. They never asked me about the repeatedly bit they have simple assumed I can. 

It will have to wait until the new year before I put in a 2nd tier appeal.


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## equationgirl (Dec 23, 2017)

WouldBe said:


> I got my 'reasons for decision' letter from the tribunal this morning. What a farce. I'm sure they have used the same piece of evidence to backup something at one point then to refuse something almost exactly the same at another point.
> 
> They claim that because I could attend the tribunal that I could socialise. Unless their idea of socialising is to attend job interviews or tribunals where you get a whole load of questions thrown at you then I can't.
> 
> ...


I guess a consistent logical argument is too much to hope for? 

Sorry they are plumbing new depths of crap essential


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## WouldBe (Jan 15, 2018)

Finally finished the request for a 2nd tier tribunal. Just need to print it and post it. My "forensic analysis" (as the judge put it) of the statement of reasons runs to 10 pages + 7 pages of further supporting evidence. 
The GP claimed that being on 40mg per day of citalopram was too low a dose to be depressed yet according to BNF 40mg is the maximum dose.  I hope he's not suggesting I take an overdose. 
The GP claims that postural hypotension can't cause blackouts so I've had to do a print out for him. 
The judge awarded 2 points for toilet needs on the decision letter then explains why I was awarded 0 points in the statement of reasons. 
Postural hypotension can't affect my mobility even though I have to stand up to walk. 
Apparently my knee problem isn't severe enough to affect my mobility yet the occupational therapist suggested I should use knee braces or a walking frame to get around. 

etc. etc. etc.

And they claim that's fair and just.


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## BCBlues (Jan 20, 2018)

More than 150,000 people set to get higher disability benefits after U-turn

More than 150,000 people set to get higher disability benefits after U-turn

It's great news but still annoying that they took it this far before admitting the fact that they are a bunch of devious shits.


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## iona (Jan 20, 2018)

Wonder if that'll affect me...


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## fishfinger (Jan 20, 2018)

It was my PIP appeal yesterday (almost a year to the day after my original claim). I got the judgement in the post today. Although I was awarded less than I'd hoped - at least I got _an_ award.

Fuck you! ATOS and a double FUCK YOU! to Iain Duncan Smith.


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## Celyn (Jan 20, 2018)

Happy happy for fishfinger!


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## scifisam (Jan 20, 2018)

fishfinger said:


> It was my PIP appeal yesterday (almost a year to the day after my original claim). I got the judgement in the post today. Although I was awarded less than I'd hoped - at least I got _an_ award.
> 
> Fuck you! ATOS and a double FUCK YOU! to Iain Duncan Smith.



Awesome! Plus backpayments?


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## fishfinger (Jan 20, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Awesome! Plus backpayments?


Yes


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## Orang Utan (Jan 20, 2018)

Brilliant, fishfinger


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## iona (Jan 20, 2018)

Nice one fishfinger


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## equationgirl (Jan 21, 2018)

Brilliant news fishfinger really pleased for you


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## equationgirl (Jan 21, 2018)

And Yay for backpayments!!


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## BCBlues (Jan 21, 2018)

Great news fishfinger . Well done for sticking it out.


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## friendofdorothy (Jan 21, 2018)

fishfinger I'm sorry you've had to go through such a long horrid process. Glad it was ok in the end.


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## fishfinger (Jan 21, 2018)

Thanks to all of you for the messages of support


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## equationgirl (Jan 21, 2018)

fishfinger said:


> Thanks to all of you for the messages of support


Anytime. Least we can do for all the kind birthday threads you do


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## Bakunin (Feb 1, 2018)

Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:

My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.

Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?


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## iona (Feb 1, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?



It's based on the support you actually need, not what you currently get  

Not sure about the rest but hopefully someone who is will be along shortly. Good luck with the appeal.


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## 8115 (Feb 1, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:
> 
> My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.
> 
> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?


I'm not an expert but that is absolute bullshit.


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## scifisam (Feb 1, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:
> 
> My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.
> 
> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?



No, getting support provided by a partner is definitely not a reason to deny you PIP. It's also based on the support you need, not what you get, because part of the intention of PIP/DLA is to pay for support (like taxi rides, mobility aids, having a carer help look after you - even a friend or relative - extra tickets to events so you can have someone there to support you, etc etc etc) that you probably won't be able to afford without PIP/DLA.

It's basically about "if you gave me this money I could get closer to living a normal life because I could spend it on [whatever] and without [whatever] I cannot..." Best to leave out the actual mention of money and phrase it in terms of support instead, but it is about the money really.


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 1, 2018)

Good luck for the appeal Bakunin


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## fishfinger (Feb 1, 2018)

Best of luck to you Bakunin


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## existentialist (Feb 1, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:
> 
> My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.
> 
> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?


My IT mind kicked in when I read this post. And what it said was "race condition" 

Because, if the provision of support automatically disqualified one for that support, you'd be in a system that oscillated between "unsupported" and "you've got support, so you don't need it". It's patently bollocks, and it says a lot about the functional idiocy of a system that it can't even recognise that.

I don't know enough to say what others, more knowledgeable than I, have already said, but it's obviously the case that, if you have to rely on someone else to support you, that is going to come at some sort of cost - even if it's only the potential cost of their not being able to do other things (like work) while they're supporting you.

Carers, in whatever form, make a massive but invisible contribution to the economy. If you didn't have a toggle, someone would be having to fork over money to provide the service she's providing. I am sure that any halfway-reasonable tribunal will be able to see that, and that your appeal will be successful, if there is any justice in this world. We know there is no justice in DWP decisions, but the rate of overturnings of those decisions at appeal makes it clear that there is at least some justice in that part of the process. Grab your piece of that justice - it's yours.


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## equationgirl (Feb 1, 2018)

Best of luck Bakunin and please send my love to toggle.


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## Libertad (Feb 2, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Best of luck Bakunin and please send my love to toggle.



Likewise.


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## BCBlues (Feb 2, 2018)

I agree with the above posters that the decision makers are lazily denying your entitlement to PIP. The optimist in me thinks that an Appeal Panel will pick up on this so good luck Bakunin


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## scifisam (Feb 2, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:
> 
> My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.
> 
> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?



Thinking again we might be able to give you more assistance if you tell us more about how your original assessment was conducted. If you don't want to do it here (though here is semi-private) then I'm going to volunteer equationgirl to read a PM as well as me and anyone else you might want to include.

There's a line from Tom Jones (book, not singer) that I've thought of for years:

“It is not enough that your designs, nay that your actions, are intrinsically good, you must take care they shall appear so.” 

For disability assessments it is not enough that you actually are disabled, nor that all your actions are affected by your disability, but you must show that they are. This is not only because ATOS et al are despicable, but because they are _not you_. They need evidence, not just a feeling or your word. They do take doctor's opinions into account obvs but a lot of it is stuff that your doc won't necessarily know, or will be guessing at, esp if it's stuff not on scans or blood tests etc. For example, if you can't reliably travel by public transport alone then give examples of times you've tried (including times you even thought about doing it). Make it concrete - give them something hard to butt their heads against.

The silver lining in all this is that it does actually make you assess what help you need. In theory you could realise that you could manage without PIP if a few changes were made, but that's not for this thread really. Realising how much help you need can be depressing at first but getting the help you need is so much more of mood lifter that it's worth the mental process.


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## equationgirl (Feb 3, 2018)

Yes, happy to help by pm Bakunin.


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## WouldBe (Feb 3, 2018)

scifisam said:


> They need evidence, not just a feeling or your word. They do take doctor's opinions into account obvs...


My sister has reapplied for PIP after being turned down and ATOS told her point blank that they don't even bother contacting your doctor or specialist they leave it down to the HCP. Yes my sister did record that phone call.


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## WouldBe (Feb 3, 2018)

Had a reply to my request for a 2nd tier tribunal this morning. It was turned down by the same judge that did my tribunal  Hardly surprising then that he didn't wan't to overrule himself. 

Needless to say I will be filling in the enclosed form and going over his head.


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> My sister has reapplied for PIP after being turned down and ATOS told her point blank that they don't even bother contacting your doctor or specialist they leave it down to the HCP. Yes my sister did record that phone call.



Yeah, but they take evidence from doctors into account, don't they? Evidence you provide, I mean, like letters from them and scans and so on.


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## equationgirl (Feb 3, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Yeah, but they take evidence from doctors into account, don't they? Evidence you provide, I mean, like letters from them and scans and so on.


They're supposed to, whether or not they do is another matter. There was certainly an overreliance on the outputs of the software they used up to a few years ago, above any other evidence.


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## existentialist (Feb 3, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Thinking again we might be able to give you more assistance if you tell us more about how your original assessment was conducted. If you don't want to do it here (though here is semi-private) then I'm going to volunteer equationgirl to read a PM as well as me and anyone else you might want to include.
> 
> There's a line from Tom Jones (book, not singer) that I've thought of for years:
> 
> ...


There's a lot of truth in what you say, but there's a downside, too.

For many people coping with long-term conditions, part of the process of coping is normalising their disability as far as they can, and just using the resources they do have to get on with life the best they can. But when they are forced, on a periodic basis, not just to enumerate every difficulty their disability or illness causes them, but to do so to a patently sceptical audience, who is quite likely simply to dismiss it out of hand, that has its own effects.

A very large percentage of the clients I see at the surgery have been, or are going, through the DWP assessment/appeal process. It's bad enough for those with physical disabilities or chronic pain, but for those with mental health problems, where having to think through just how awful your mental state makes your life, it is really harmful. A lot of people relate that the process leads them into a state of mind where they're thinking "fuck, if it is really this bad, why am I even bothering to try and carry on?". I am not remotely surprised that the rate of suicide attempts amongst benefits claimants is so much higher than amongst the population in general, and I think this is a classic example of the old truism that measuring things always affects the things being measured.

There has to be some kind of evaluation process, I accept that. But it should be enabling, not punitive. An assessor saying "so, if you're suicidal, why haven't you killed yourself yet?" should simply never happen - that's a question that can be asked, but only by the right people, in the right context, and not in a situation where the "wrong" answer can mean someone being deprived of their only means of support.


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2018)

existentialist said:


> There's a lot of truth in what you say, but there's a downside, too.
> 
> For many people coping with long-term conditions, part of the process of coping is normalising their disability as far as they can, and just using the resources they do have to get on with life the best they can. But when they are forced, on a periodic basis, not just to enumerate every difficulty their disability or illness causes them, but to do so to a patently sceptical audience, who is quite likely simply to dismiss it out of hand, that has its own effects.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with any of that. I'm disabled, the parent of a disabled person, and have been posting on this thread for years. I do not need educating about what it's like to claim disability benefits. 

I think that trying to phrase everything in concrete terms is very helpful for the box-ticking forms and assessments and can make a difference between a claim succeeding and being denied. That there is one upside to this - that it can help you identify what support might help you - does not mean that the many downsides cease to exist. So I said "silver lining" because that usually means "one good side of a shit situation," not "I love this and think it's all wonderful." If my post came across the latter way then I apologise.


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## Favelado (Feb 3, 2018)

I just saw this in the Blackpool Gazette. The poor bloke in this story. After all the trouble he already had in his life and then they take his money away from him. Cleared as fit to work of course.


Mark Hewitt, 51, theft 

A man stole from a supermarket after he had to cope without any benefits for three months. Mark Hewitt, who lost his parents and sister in a car crash, took a digital radio and a bunch of flowers. Hewitt, 51, of Cheltenham Road, North Shore, pleaded guilty to theft of property valued at £54. He was given a 12 months conditional discharge and ordered to pay £40 costs with £20 victims’ surcharge. Prosecutor, Pam Smith, said staff at Sainsburys, Talbot Road, saw Hewitt removed the security tag from a radio on January 3. He then picked up a bunch of flowers and was apprehended after leaving without paying. Stephen Duffy, defending, said client suffered from Hepatitis C and an assessment by the authorities had led them to believe Hewitt was fit to work. Hewitt’s benefits were then sanctioned and he went 13 weeks without any money before an appeal was successful and the benefits were returned to him.

Read more at: Blackpool: From the courts 01-02-18


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## existentialist (Feb 3, 2018)

scifisam said:


> I don't disagree with any of that. I'm disabled, the parent of a disabled person, and have been posting on this thread for years. I do not need educating about what it's like to claim disability benefits.
> 
> I think that trying to phrase everything in concrete terms is very helpful for the box-ticking forms and assessments and can make a difference between a claim succeeding and being denied. That there is one upside to this - that it can help you identify what support might help you - does not mean that the many downsides cease to exist. So I said "silver lining" because that usually means "one good side of a shit situation," not "I love this and think it's all wonderful." If my post came across the latter way then I apologise.


I in turn shall apologise for any suggestion that my post was critical of yours . It was meant only to be a perspective from the other end. I agree that, as the system stands, it is necessary to do things the way you described; my (probably off-topic) comments were born of my frustration at a system that wilfully does so much harm beyond what has already been done by disability, sickness, or mental ill-health.


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## scifisam (Feb 3, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I in turn shall apologise for any suggestion that my post was critical of yours . It was meant only to be a perspective from the other end. I agree that, as the system stands, it is necessary to do things the way you described; my (probably off-topic) comments were born of my frustration at a system that wilfully does so much harm beyond what has already been done by disability, sickness, or mental ill-health.



To me, although the way assessments are conducted are adversarial at best and downright vindictive at worst, asking for concrete examples isn't in itself a bad thing. Otherwise all you'd have to go on is the diagnosis and that doesn't always tell you that much about how it affects your ability to go to work or look after yourself independently.


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## Bakunin (Feb 16, 2018)

VICTORY!

PIP Standard rate daily living and mobility, backdated to last April. Which also means Toggle can apply for Carer's Allowance and we'll regain the disabled element of Working Tax Credit (whether that would be backdated all the way we don't yet know). Thanks to folk who put up with me during this rather arduous process.


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## crossthebreeze (Feb 16, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> VICTORY!
> 
> PIP Standard rate daily living and mobility, backdated to last April. Which also means Toggle can apply for Carer's Allowance and we'll regain the disabled element of Working Tax Credit (whether that would be backdated all the way we don't yet know). Thanks to folk who put up with me during this rather arduous process.


Great news!


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## Libertad (Feb 16, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> VICTORY!
> 
> PIP Standard rate daily living and mobility, backdated to last April. Which also means Toggle can apply for Carer's Allowance and we'll regain the disabled element of Working Tax Credit (whether that would be backdated all the way we don't yet know). Thanks to folk who put up with me during this rather arduous process.



Fair shout! Well battled both of you.


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## fishfinger (Feb 16, 2018)

Congrats to you Bakunin


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## equationgirl (Feb 16, 2018)

Congratulations Bakunin and toggle love to you both, such brilliant news x x


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## Jon-of-arc (Feb 19, 2018)

Edit -Ignore.  13 year old nephew got my phone.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> Question for ViolentPanda or other benefits experts:
> 
> My PIP assessment says I don't need any assistance because Toggle assists me. Can they use support provided by a partner as a reason to deny me PIP. They've denied me any PIP and ended my DLA and my appeal is being heard on February 13, only about ten days away.
> 
> Also, is a PIP award based on the support a person actually gets or on the need for support whether they get it or not?



Sorry, haven't been around much. No, they can't take Toggle's support as meaning you require no support. Toggle's support cannot be guaranteed, therefore to use it as a reason to deny you DLA/PIP is illogical.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 19, 2018)

Bakunin said:


> VICTORY!
> 
> PIP Standard rate daily living and mobility, backdated to last April. Which also means Toggle can apply for Carer's Allowance and we'll regain the disabled element of Working Tax Credit (whether that would be backdated all the way we don't yet know). Thanks to folk who put up with me during this rather arduous process.



Congratulations!


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## WouldBe (Feb 21, 2018)

Still not had any help with my upper tier PIP tribunal. 

Anyone got any ideas? It needs to be submitted by 1st March.


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## WouldBe (Feb 23, 2018)

Finally got some advice from the local county council. Apparently my 11 page critique of the tribunal is way more than adequate as a submission to the upper tribunal. Just need to reprint it, copy other documents, fill in form and get it posted.


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## iona (Mar 8, 2018)

Anyone who's been through the ESA medical bollocks recently - how long did you wait for an assessment date after sending the Capability for Work form back?

It's been seven months now and I've heard nothing  Support worker phoned to rearrange a "work coach" appointment and they couldn't even understand why I'd been asked to come in now; I was only put in the WRAG until August 2017 at my last assessment...


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## WouldBe (Mar 12, 2018)

Got a letter from the upper tribunal today saying they are requesting my file. Does that mean the upper tribunal will be having a look at my case?


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## equationgirl (Mar 12, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> Got a letter from the upper tribunal today saying they are requesting my file. Does that mean the upper tribunal will be having a look at my case?


I would think so, but I am no expert.


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## iona (Mar 21, 2018)

Sorry WouldBe, I'm not sure.



iona said:


> Anyone who's been through the ESA medical bollocks recently - how long did you wait for an assessment date after sending the Capability for Work form back?
> 
> It's been seven months now and I've heard nothing  Support worker phoned to rearrange a "work coach" appointment and they couldn't even understand why I'd been asked to come in now; I was only put in the WRAG until August 2017 at my last assessment...


Went to that "work coach" appointment: apparently there's a note on the computer system from 2016 saying something about putting me in the Support group. I was put in the WRAG after my 2016 medical (the report is so full of ridiculous lies, my support worker couldn't stop laughing when he read it) and all the letters and payments I've received since are for WRAG rates. But apparently I should be in the Support group and no one knows why I'm not, or why I've heard nothing since returning an ESA50 seven and a half months ago


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## WouldBe (Mar 21, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> I would think so, but I am no expert.


No it means they have had a look and decided I can't appeal it. Only options now are to have it set aside or take it to the high court.


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## equationgirl (Mar 21, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> No it means they have had a look and decided I can't appeal it. Only options now are to have it set aside or take it to the high court.




So why request the file then?


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## WouldBe (Mar 22, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> So why request the file then?


No idea.


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## WouldBe (Mar 28, 2018)

If I got the decision 'set aside' what happens then? Another tribunal or what?


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## iona (Mar 28, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> If I got the decision 'set aside' what happens then? Another tribunal or what?



A "new decision or ... rehearing" according to this (my bold) from here -


> Reviewing the decision
> On receiving your application for permission to appeal, the FTT can review its decision. In particular, the FTT can, (i) correct an accidental error in the decision; (ii) amend the reasons for the decision; or (iii) set aside the decision.
> 
> The tribunal must write to ask each party if it has any comments before it changes its decision following a review. *If it sets aside the decision, it must make a new decision or order a rehearing.* You must be sent a notification of any new or amended decision. If you think that the new or amended decision contains an error of law, you have one month from the date that the notification is sent to ask again for permission to appeal to the Upper Tribunal.



I'm not clear on the process for asking for a FTT decision to be set aside _after_ you've applied to both tiers for an UT appeal and been turned down by both, though.

This really seems like something you need proper expert help with


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## WouldBe (Mar 29, 2018)

iona said:


> A "new decision or ... rehearing" according to this (my bold) from here -
> 
> 
> I'm not clear on the process for asking for a FTT decision to be set aside _after_ you've applied to both tiers for an UT appeal and been turned down by both, though.
> ...


Thanks for that. Nice to see I could have gotten legal aid to go to the UT not that anyone round my way has advised me of this.  That gives a few more ideas of grounds to appeal. Not sure what natural justice is though.


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## iona (Mar 29, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> Thanks for that. Nice to see I could have gotten legal aid to go to the UT not that anyone round my way has advised me of this.  That gives a few more ideas of grounds to appeal. Not sure what natural justice is though.



I've seen that explained somewhere, will have a look when I'm not out in the rain. 

Possibly no one round your way does UT PIP appeals on legal aid, rather than you just not being told? (I'm not sure where "round your way" is) 

It's all fucking bollocks.


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## WouldBe (Mar 31, 2018)

iona said:


> I've seen that explained somewhere, will have a look when I'm not out in the rain.
> 
> Possibly no one round your way does UT PIP appeals on legal aid, rather than you just not being told? (I'm not sure where "round your way" is)
> 
> It's all fucking bollocks.


I've looked up natural justice. Basically it says they can't show bias which they clearly have done by ignoring evidence by specialists and also 'no man can judge his own case' which means the judge shouldn't have reviewed his own decision as to whether it could go to an upper tribunal. So it looks like the tribunal has broken natural justice 3-4 times. Some of those points I have already raised yet the upper tribunal judge doesn't appear to have picked up on them so it looks like it needs to be spelled out s l o w l y so the idiot gets what I'm on about. It also looks like the tribunal have missed out communication problems as I'm clearly having problems getting my point across.


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## iona (Mar 31, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> I've looked up natural justice. Basically it says they can't show bias which they clearly have done by ignoring evidence by specialists and also 'no man can judge his own case' which means the judge shouldn't have reviewed his own decision as to whether it could go to an upper tribunal. So it looks like the tribunal has broken natural justice 3-4 times. Some of those points I have already raised yet the upper tribunal judge doesn't appear to have picked up on them so it looks like it needs to be spelled out s l o w l y so the idiot gets what I'm on about. It also looks like the tribunal have missed out communication problems as I'm clearly having problems getting my point across.



Fucking shitcunts. I have no idea what to suggest, other than getting on to every local and national disability / benefits advice type service until someone helps (which I'm sure you've already tried), but I really hope you get this sorted.

Worst case scenario, I think you're allowed to put in a new claim if you run out of appeal options? Would mean you lose out on backpay though and you're not guaranteed to get a different decision 

E2a - was your request for a UT appeal specifically on the grounds that the FTT had made an error of law?


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2018)

((((WouldBe)))) I hope you are OK x


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## WouldBe (Apr 1, 2018)

iona said:


> Fucking shitcunts. I have no idea what to suggest, other than getting on to every local and national disability / benefits advice type service until someone helps (which I'm sure you've already tried), but I really hope you get this sorted.
> 
> Worst case scenario, I think you're allowed to put in a new claim if you run out of appeal options? Would mean you lose out on backpay though and you're not guaranteed to get a different decision
> 
> E2a - was your request for a UT appeal specifically on the grounds that the FTT had made an error of law?


The request was made on several grounds:-
1. The Gp didn't have a clue what he was on about quizzing me about a medical condition I hadn't even claimed for and for breaking the 1962 suicide act by pointing out 1 of my suicide points was right outside the front door of the court.
2. The occupational therapist didn't have a clue what she was on about recommending aids that couldn't possibly work and trying to claim that by being able to remember the price of fags and the change from a tenner meant I was able to financially budget OK
3. The tribunal ignored the recording of the ATOS assessment which proves that the HCP was lying.
4. The tribunal ignored the DWP work psychology report that proves that my memory is shit (1 of the tests put me in the bottom 6% of the population) yet apparently my memory is OK. They also ignored the point that I need prompting to be able to remember things fully which is a breach of the disability discrimination act.

However most of those points and other points show the tribunal was biased towards the HCP's evidence and therefore shows they have breached natural justice so I will be pointing this out very clearly to the upper tribunal judge. Of course if the upper tribunal judge decided to carry on ignoring the facts the that will make him/her an accomplice to the tribunals illegal activities.


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## WouldBe (Apr 1, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> ((((WouldBe)))) I hope you are OK x


Yes I'm fine. Although after receiving the letter from the upper tribunal I very nearly stepped in front of a lorry even though I didn't feel all that depressed. Yet the tribunal seem to think my depression isn't bad enough.


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## equationgirl (Apr 1, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> Yes I'm fine. Although after receiving the letter from the upper tribunal I very nearly stepped in front of a lorry even though I didn't feel all that depressed. Yet the tribunal seem to think my depression isn't bad enough.


Mate  

Bastards


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## Libertad (Apr 1, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> However most of those points and other points show the tribunal was biased towards the HCP's evidence and therefore shows they have breached natural justice so I will be pointing this out very clearly to the upper tribunal judge. Of course if the upper tribunal judge decided to carry on ignoring the facts the that will make him/her an accomplice to the tribunals illegal activities.



This is a good plan, I like it.  Wishing you the best WouldBe.


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## David Clapson (Apr 8, 2018)

Last May I was awarded £55 per week standard daily living for PIP, with nothing for mobility. Previously I had been getting £96 per week DLA. Had it not been for the  encouraging stats and info at benefitsandwork.co.uk I probably would have accepted this cut. My conditions are very variable. Some people tell me they are "all in the mind". I can never provide any evidence to show what my bad days are like, or the number of bad days I have per year. Nobody who reads my claim forms and doctor's notes can ever be sure whether I am exaggerating to get a bit more money. I haven't seen any specialists for several years, so the only thing which supports my claim is a brief letter from my GP and a very long history in my notes.

But I appealed. The nub of my argument was that the Atosser only asked about the week before the hearing. I'd had a good week, and said so. The rules say that the claim should be based on the 12 months prior to the examination, and that if your bad days account for more than half of that period, your award is based on the assumption that every day is bad.  The Atosser pretty much assumed that all my days are good. In my appeal document I pointed out this mistake. The DM's letter rejecting my appeal didn't even address this point. I don't understand how they can make such an obvious, silly mistake and then offer no defence of their argument when they reject the appeal. But the DWP world seems like Alice in Wonderland. Anyway, the judge awarded me enhanced daily living and enhanced mobility, £141 per week until 2021 and back-dated to May. He or she did this a few hours before my hearing, on the basis of my GP's notes and my appeal form. Then I got a text as I was about to set out for the hearing, telling me I needn't bother to attend. Eight months of stress about facing the panel...and two hours before the hearing it's called off!

I wonder what this says about the appeal process? Maybe the judge is fed up with the delays which claimants are subjected to and the performance of the DWP and Atos? Does he believe that the DWP are knowingly making unjust awards and hoping to scare people into not appealing? Maybe he just looks at the papers and says 'this looks like yet another DWP/Atos arm-twisting exercise, there's no need to waste the time of the panel and the claimant with a hearing.'

The lesson I would draw is that claimants who think their award is incorrect should not be discouraged by the DWP tactics and the intimidating paperwork and the months of waiting. The tribunals are staffed by good, honest people who want justice. (Well, that's been my experience. I doubt that WouldBe would agree...his/her experience sounds so traumatic and disturbing.)

The really surprising thing about my claim was that this was my second hearing date. I didn't show up for the first one because I failed to open the appointment letter. The judge didn't penalise me for this. He or she just adjourned the hearing and asked for my GP's notes. But he also wrote to warn me that my points might be reduced because the DWP had not substantiated the number of points they had given me for a particular activity. I hadn't noticed this either, but when I read the award letter properly I realised that the decision maker had given me one more point than the Atos assessor. The DM hadn't explained this - it looked like a simple error. And if the DM had not made that error I would not even have got standard daily living!

I hope this will encourage other people who have conditions which are difficult to prove. Just read all the info and advice at B&W - it could make such a difference to your life.

eta: I should have added, don't try to make a claim without help. It's just too complicated and confusing, especially if it gets to the Appeal stage. To me it seems like having to do an A level in a new subject with just the books and no lessons. In a civilised society you wouldn't expect the sick to be forced to sit an A level so they can afford food and rent. But these are the times we live in. DWP ministers past and present should be tried for Mass Manslaughter and Mass GBH.


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## BCBlues (Apr 8, 2018)

Well done David Clapson for sticking it out.

I totally agree that the benefitsandwork site is superb, not just in providing info and guidance but in giving and reinstoring confidence and self esteem along the way.

It's a very tiresome and draining process (purposely without a drain of doubt) and it's always great to hear when someone has deservedly pulled through it. It gives others hope and initiative.

This thread also,it has to be said, is a great source of info and advice, it's U75 at it's best.


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## equationgirl (Apr 8, 2018)

It's been going for some years now too - don't expect anyone to read the whole thing but there is a lot of support and help here.

Thanks to David Clapson for posting his encouraging post (sorry you had to go through it though) and well done on getting an award until 2021.


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## WouldBe (Apr 10, 2018)

Upper tribunal have received my request for setting aside the decision, let's see how that goes. If it doesn't get me anywhere I will have to reapply for PIP on the grounds my problems have got worse which will be a complete pain in the arse but will have to be done. I will also be starting legal action against all the corrupt cretins involved in my case so far.


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## BCBlues (Apr 10, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> Upper tribunal have received my request for setting aside the decision, let's see how that goes. If it doesn't get me anywhere I will have to reapply for PIP on the grounds my problems have got worse which will be a complete pain in the arse but will have to be done. I will also be starting legal action against all the corrupt cretins involved in my case so far.



Yeah keep going at 'em. Maybe start preparing the New Claim now, it might take a bit of pressure of later in the process ? 
Fair play for keeping at it, it's draining and is very hard so seriously well done.


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## Libertad (Apr 10, 2018)

Good news David Clapson and keep at 'em WouldBe


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## equationgirl (Apr 10, 2018)

Keep going if you are able to WouldBe and really well done for getting so far as you have already.


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## WouldBe (May 2, 2018)

Had the reply from the upper tribunal. They have refused to set aside the decision as it's not in the public interest to do so. I'm pretty sure that perverting the course of justice, a breach of the disability discrimination act, assault and aiding and abetting are most definitely in the public interest.  Perhaps I should send the upper tribunal judge a letter saying "Congratulations you've won a day in court"  Just need to figure out how to start legal proceedings against the muppets. 

Now I've got to get past the moronic questions at the DWP to get them to send me a PIP claim form.


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## equationgirl (May 4, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> Had the reply from the upper tribunal. They have refused to set aside the decision as it's not in the public interest to do so. I'm pretty sure that perverting the course of justice, a breach of the disability discrimination act, assault and aiding and abetting are most definitely in the public interest.  Perhaps I should send the upper tribunal judge a letter saying "Congratulations you've won a day in court"  Just need to figure out how to start legal proceedings against the muppets.
> 
> Now I've got to get past the moronic questions at the DWP to get them to send me a PIP claim form.


Oh WouldBe  I'm so sorry to hear that, and yes, all of those are definitely in the public interest. 

Could the benefits and work website people help you with taking it to court?


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## chainsawjob (Jun 11, 2018)

chainsawjob said:


> My PIP assessment is done. A lovely Urb helped me out with a lift  No knowing how it went. It lasted 50 minutes and seemed quite thorough. I wanted to make sure I wasn't rushed, or not allowed time to give full answers. The assessor was a paramedic, I asked her what her knowledge and experience of mental health was, and she said she had experience through her job in the ambulance service. Not exactly 100% relevant, or sufficient training in mental health I wouldn't think, imo.
> 
> I recorded it all on my phone (didn't decide until the last minute whether to do this or not, and whether to be up front and ask, but in the end I went with hiding my phone under my coat and not asking, it seems to have recorded ok). Plus the friend that came with me took notes. Transcribing it now, I can see that I didn't qualify my answers enough. 'Can you do this?' 'Yes, but not when... and only if... and only for this long...'. If it would help anyone I can give a list of the questions I was asked. But tbh they were all ones listed in the Benefits and Work guide (a list of a possible I dunno 60 odd questions, maybe more). The guide had some useful advice on what to expect and what to be aware of.
> 
> Oh, the list of PIP assessment centres wasn't wrong when it said mine was hard to find! I nearly missed my appointment because we couldn't find it  It was indeed 45 minutes wandering round industrial estates, asking people who sent us in the wrong direction, trying to ring up the centre, and finding it wasn't possible to speak to them directly, only to someone somewhere else who had no idea, etc etc Made for a nice relaxed arrival



Well I got my decision just before Christmas, and I was awarded lower rate care, think that's what it's called, for 2 years I think. So thank fuck for that. I felt totally flat about it, no woop at all. Ten months it took, and a lot of stress. After I'd received the letter I put all the paperwork away and haven't looked at it since. I'm sorry I haven't been back sooner to update everyone, I sunk into a really bad depression since just before Christmas which I have only just surfaced from. Find it very hard to post, and cut myself off from everyone/everything. I think the PIP saga is one of the things that worsened my condition, the very thing I'm trying to get help for, as well as a combination of other things going on. Grrrr.

Sorry not to have kept up with everyone else's 'progress' (hardly the most appropriate word for anything to do with benefits  ), but strength to everyone still going through it, and congrats to anyone who's had a good decision. This thread has kept me sane at times, thanks for all the support


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## fishfinger (Jun 11, 2018)

Glad you got your award chainsawjob  I know what you mean about feeling flat. I certainly found the whole experience of applying for PIP and having to take it to a tribunal, very stressful and it made my depression much worse. Good to see you back.


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## iona (Jun 11, 2018)

Liked for getting your money and for surfacing now chainsawjob


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## iona (Jun 11, 2018)

Latest news here is the dwp have decided I'm definitely on WRAG ESA, which is what my letters and payments all say but one person told us the computer said SG 

My support worker is massively fucked off that I've still heard nothing about my medical—now ten months after they received my completed ESA50—and that they sent me a work coach apt out of the blue in Feb (although person I saw said they'd put a note on system for me not to have more 'til reassessment as they're obvs pointless). He's writing a long complaint letter about all their shit, right back to my last medical in 2016 (when I got shouted at several times for rocking/flapping and scratching my hands til they bled, by an assessor who then wrote that I was calm, relaxed, not rocking etc during apt and stuck me in WRAG ) which he's also determined to mand.rec./appeal/etc despite the time limit!

Oh, and it might only be a few months 'til I start getting more PIP forms if they do what other people have had and start sending them out a year before the claim ends...


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## equationgirl (Jun 11, 2018)

chainsawjob I am not surprised I the process made your depression worse, it's a stressful thing to go through. Nice to see you back. 

iona hope you hear something positive soon. Your support worker sounds helpful.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 13, 2018)

That's a long wait for your medical iona, hope you get a date soon. Glad your support worker is determined to hold them to account for all the previous rubbish. Are you hoping the decision will be revised to SG? I remember you saying you weren't sure whether to appeal being put in WRAG, some time ago. 

Jeez are they sending out PIP forms a year in advance, there's no let up is there


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## BCBlues (Jun 13, 2018)

Nice to see you back chainsawjob. It must have been a long hard winter for you.

iona I cannot believe the hypocrisy of your assessor getting annoyed by you rocking and scratching when that is exactly what they should be looking for. Im sure its in their own guidance notes especially the rocking. I've had reports from assessors saying that I was quite relaxed and not rocking therefore not showing any signs of depression/anxiety. The fact that I was zombified on painkillers was nothing to do with it in their view despite that being my main reason for wishing to be put in SG.
Good luck going forward iona.


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## ash (Jun 13, 2018)

Husband has a PiP medical transfer from DlA coming up. We really thought he would be assessed on paper he’s registered blind with a degenerative eye
Condition I’m not sure what more information  they plan to glean from a face to face assessment.?


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## iona (Jun 13, 2018)

chainsawjob said:


> That's a long wait for your medical iona, hope you get a date soon. Glad your support worker is determined to hold them to account for all the previous rubbish. Are you hoping the decision will be revised to SG? I remember you saying you weren't sure whether to appeal being put in WRAG, some time ago.
> 
> Jeez are they sending out PIP forms a year in advance, there's no let up is there



Would've been my PIP last year you're thinking of, I think? I wasn't unsure about whether to appeal the ESA decision; just didn't manage to do a mand rec letter before the deadline 'coz of not having anywhere to live at the time and shit.

I'm not _hopeful_ that the decision'll be changed now, after all this time—would be nice though!  We'll def be mand rec / appealing if I don't get put back in support group when they finally get round to the reassessment I'm due.



BCBlues said:


> Nice to see you back chainsawjob. It must have been a long hard winter for you.
> 
> iona I cannot believe the hypocrisy of your assessor getting annoyed by you rocking and scratching when that is exactly what they should be looking for. Im sure its in their own guidance notes especially the rocking. I've had reports from assessors saying that I was quite relaxed and not rocking therefore not showing any signs of depression/anxiety. The fact that I was zombified on painkillers was nothing to do with it in their view despite that being my main reason for wishing to be put in SG.
> Good luck going forward iona.



Exactly, she obviously didn't just not notice  I think all that stuff (relaxed / rocking / fidgeting / eye contact / speech & needing prompting to answer / etc) is listed on the thing they fill in during apts, judging by how it turns up in those garbled, cut-and-shut sentences the computer spits out as assessment reports.


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## iona (Jun 13, 2018)

ash said:


> Husband has a PiP medical transfer from DlA coming up. We really thought he would be assessed on paper he’s registered blind with a degenerative eye
> Condition I’m not sure what more information  they plan to glean from a face to face assessment.?



Guidance for assessment providers re. paper-based assessments here. 

Have a look and write to request a paper-based assessment, quoting the guidance (and with supporting letter from GP/other health professional if poss), if you think he's eligible based on that?

Good luck with it all.


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## ash (Jun 13, 2018)

iona said:


> Guidance for assessment providers re. paper-based assessments here.
> 
> Have a look and write to request a paper-based assessment, quoting the guidance (and with supporting letter from GP/other health professional if poss), if you think he's eligible based on that?
> 
> Good luck with it all.



Thanks for this ... I  had read that out to him a while back to reassure him he wouldn’t have a medical and forgotten about it I didn’t realise we could make a case not to have a face to face assessment. I will have a chat with him about it but not sure who we should contact to challenge this or if it might be best to just to go ahead as I’m fairly confident  he would win on a mandatory reconsideration or appeal if it came down to it .... but just feel it’s wrong he has to go though it.  God knows what humiliating tests or questions he might be asked to perform??


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## iona (Jun 14, 2018)

ash said:


> Thanks for this ... I  had read that out to him a while back to reassure him he wouldn’t have a medical and forgotten about it I didn’t realise we could make a case not to have a face to face assessment. I will have a chat with him about it but not sure who we should contact to challenge this or if it might be best to just to go ahead as I’m fairly confident  he would win on a mandatory reconsideration or appeal if it came down to it .... but just feel it’s wrong he has to go though it.  God knows what humiliating tests or questions he might be asked to perform??



Where are you with it at the moment, have you been given a date for f2f?

I _think_ you want to contact the assessment provider—off the top of my head that's Capita or Independent Assessment Services (formerly ATOS) depending on where you live—to request paper-based. Will his GP or another health professional provide evidence to support the request?


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## chainsawjob (Jun 14, 2018)

Good luck ash, hope he's able to get a paper-based assessment. I tried to argue for one on my PIP form, but didn't realise there were regulations I could have quoted to make a case for one.



BCBlues said:


> Nice to see you back chainsawjob. It must have been a long hard winter for you.


 Thanks, that's kind of you, it was, think I missed spring entirely as well, suddenly I felt better and it was summer!


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## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2018)

ash God knows what they're thinking, hope your argument is are successful.


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## chainsawjob (Jun 14, 2018)

iona said:


> Would've been my PIP last year you're thinking of, I think? I wasn't unsure about whether to appeal the ESA decision; just didn't manage to do a mand rec letter before the deadline 'coz of not having anywhere to live at the time and shit.
> 
> I'm not _hopeful_ that the decision'll be changed now, after all this time—would be nice though!  We'll def be mand rec / appealing if I don't get put back in support group when they finally get round to the reassessment I'm due.



Ah yes, sorry, it was PIP. 

Good, I'm glad you're going to keep going with getting back into the SG

Yes, there are so many hoops to jump through, you have to be really on top of things to be able to cope with it all, and many people going through it just _aren't_, in practical terms (not having anywhere to live, or having other adverse circumstances) or in emotional terms, or in terms of their health condition. Being on top of things just doesn't apply to many people (or they probably wouldn't be applying for help with health needs in the first place!), and they rely on that to deter people from appealing or even applying in the first place to what they're entitled to  So many times during this PIP process I've nearly given up as I just didn't think I could find it in me to battle on. The whole thing stinks and the process is cruel and unfair.


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## ash (Jun 14, 2018)

Meant to quote


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## ash (Jun 14, 2018)

iona said:


> Where are you with it at the moment, have you been given a date for f2f?
> 
> I _think_ you want to contact the assessment provider—off the top of my head that's Capita or Independent Assessment Services (formerly ATOS) depending on where you live—to request paper-based. Will his GP or another health professional provide evidence to support the request?





equationgirl said:


> ash God knows what they're thinking, hope your argument is are successful.




Thanks both - he was called and offered a short notice appointment and accepted as we are away in July and didn’t want to miss an appointment that then came in then post and get sanctioned. We will wait until he gets the appointment letter and might contact them. The problem with medical evidence is he was diagnosed when he was 15 (49 now) there’s no medical intervention required. So although he’s under Moorfield he rarely sees them and doesn't see GP re: vision although does have depression and high BP which are very likely connected. He has a certificate of visual impairment and is registered with the local authority. 
I will have a chat with him about what to do. His brother has the same condition and wasn’t called for an appointment.


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## equationgirl (Jun 14, 2018)

ash said:


> Thanks both - he was called and offered a short notice appointment and accepted as we are away in July and didn’t want to miss an appointment that then came in then post and get sanctioned. We will wait until he gets the appointment letter and might contact them. The problem with medical evidence is he was diagnosed when he was 15 (49 now) there’s no medical intervention required. So although he’s under Moorfield he rarely sees them and doesn't see GP re: vision although does have depression and high BP which are very likely connected. He has a certificate of visual impairment and is registered with the local authority.
> I will have a chat with him about what to do. His brother has the same condition and wasn’t called for an appointment.


There does seem to be a lot of inconsistencies in the way the whole process is managed. 

The ridiculous thing is that it's almost as if they think he's going to have been miraculously cured and his sight returned. Which is just offensive as well as ridiculous.


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## existentialist (Jun 14, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> There does seem to be a lot of inconsistencies in the way the whole process is managed.
> 
> The ridiculous thing is that it's almost as if they think he's going to have been miraculously cured and his sight returned. Which is just offensive as well as ridiculous.


Offensive is the least of what it is. This system is designed to make the process of claiming as miserable as possible, and if in the course of that they create some obviously stupid and inequitable situations, they don't care - after all, it's only another disabled, another "useless eater". What does anyone care about them?


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## StoneRoad (Jun 14, 2018)

You are, unfortunately, quite right in your assessment, @extistentialist - although *they* would deny such a "policy" exists, to them it is dressed up as 'actively targeting benefits to those most in need' and *they* think we are all fooled by the smoke and mirrors.

Solidarity to those being subjected to the process ! I wish I could help in some way ...


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## ash (Jun 14, 2018)

existentialist said:


> Offensive is the least of what it is. This system is designed to make the process of claiming as miserable as possible, and if in the course of that they create some obviously stupid and inequitable situations, they don't care - after all, it's only another disabled, another "useless eater". What does anyone care about them?


Exactly what himself said - it’s a joke and so unnecessary I just hope we don’t get some jumped up OT/physio going down the reablement strengths based route - he’s lived with it for decades. I’m a bit worried he might lose it with them which won’t help.


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## existentialist (Jun 14, 2018)

I saw a client today - one of those people who is/was completely unaware of the history and implications of the whole DWP/ESA/PIP thing. Got completely tucked up at an ESA assessment - the nurse tricked him into doing things which caused him pain for quite a while afterwards. He's awaiting the outcome, but I think we can all guess exactly what it's going to be...


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## equationgirl (Jun 15, 2018)

existentialist said:


> I saw a client today - one of those people who is/was completely unaware of the history and implications of the whole DWP/ESA/PIP thing. Got completely tucked up at an ESA assessment - the nurse tricked him into doing things which caused him pain for quite a while afterwards. He's awaiting the outcome, but I think we can all guess exactly what it's going to be...


There should be instructions about what he can do next, so it's not the end by any means.


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## existentialist (Jun 15, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> There should be instructions about what he can do next, so it's not the end by any means.


I have stepped slightly outside my professional boundaries and pointed him to some useful places...


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## WouldBe (Jun 16, 2018)

ash said:


> Exactly what himself said - it’s a joke and so unnecessary I just hope we don’t get some jumped up OT/physio going down the reablement strengths based route - he’s lived with it for decades. I’m a bit worried he might lose it with them which won’t help.


If he does lose it he should get points for 'exhibiting behaviour which could result in a substantial risk of harm to themselves or another person', 8 points for care straight into standard rate for PIP.


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## iona (Jun 18, 2018)

WouldBe said:


> If he does lose it he should get points for 'exhibiting behaviour which could result in a substantial risk of harm to themselves or another person', 8 points for care straight into standard rate for PIP.



Although in reality I can see them twisting that to "unable to complete assessment, 0 points" bit like how not being able to go outside is worth so many points but rather than being awarded those for not managing to get to your assessment you get fuck-all 

E2a that wasn't meant as a prediction of what's likely to happen to your husband ash, just ranting about the cunts in general


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## ash (Jun 25, 2018)

existentialist iona equationgirl
Thanks for your support (we both really appreciated it) he decided to go ahead and had the assessment at 9am today. The assessor was a nurse which we were pleased about. I think as my husband used to be a psychiatric nurse it may have helped a little.  When he asked why he had been called she was ‘genuinely’ I believe apologetic. 
She said that they sometimes wonder why people with verifiable disabilities are called. The assessment went in his words ‘as well as could be  expected’.  It was as dignified as it could be considering the questions. But she didn’t find anything new from the form apart from him opening up about his depression and how it started (which I knew). When he explained that he used to look forward to sleep as he always dreamt that he was sighted and then one day he dreamt that he couldn’t see and felt he couldn’t escape even in sleep.  Her voice broke a bit after hearing that.
She more or less said he should be fine although she doesn’t make the actual decision.  She almost seems human and it’s wasnt what either of us were expecting. I hope we’re not being gullible.
I had my notepad but didn’t see any reason to take notes other than her name ..... fingers crossed ...


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## equationgirl (Jun 25, 2018)

Fingers crossed for you both ash


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## Wilf (Aug 1, 2018)

I got Pipped this morning - previously had dla higher rate mobility component. The (atos) assessor was decent, non-confrontational and the like. Whilst I might get a couple of points on the personal care type questions, my claim was really about mobility. The interesting thing was she asked me about the distance between where I park and the door into work and then to the lift, but didn't ever ask me a straight 'how far can you walk'. As you would imagine, she asked how I got there and into the building (partner dropped me off at the front as there was no disabled parking - ffs!). She also watched me walk from waiting room to assessment room (10 yards or so). So it looked like her recommendation on that will be based entirely on her observations and an indirect question about parking at work.  I'd put 'it varies' on the distance question on the form.  Anyway, I'm assuming I may well not get the award, so not actually being asked how far I can walk seems like a potential appeal area.

Anyway, sorry, I just splurged that out. I've not been on this thread for a while, so solidarity to everybody else.


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## crossthebreeze (Aug 1, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I got Pipped this morning - previously had dla higher rate mobility component. The (atos) assessor was decent, non-confrontational and the like. Whilst I might get a couple of points on the personal care type questions, my claim was really about mobility. The interesting thing was she asked me about the distance between where I park and the door into work and then to the lift, but didn't ever ask me a straight 'how far can you walk'. As you would imagine, she asked how I got there and into the building (partner dropped me off at the front as there was no disabled parking - ffs!). She also watched me walk from waiting room to assessment room (10 yards or so). So it looked like her recommendation on that will be based entirely on her observations and an indirect question about parking at work.  I'd put 'it varies' on the distance question on the form.  Anyway, I'm assuming I may well not get the award, so not actually being asked how far I can walk seems like a potential appeal area.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, I just splurged that out. I've not been on this thread for a while, so solidarity to everybody else.


Good luck Wilf, and yes sounds like a good reason to appeal if you don't get what you think you should get for mobility.


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## Wilf (Aug 1, 2018)

crossthebreeze said:


> Good luck Wilf, and yes sounds like a good reason to appeal if you don't get what you think you should get for mobility.


Cheers, thanks.


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## og ogilby (Aug 4, 2018)

My girlfriend just got a letter from DWP to confirm she has been awarded pip but do they also send a separate certificate of entitlement as that's what she's been asked to send to DVLA to get a refund on her car tax.

Will the confirmation letter do, or does she just wait for a certificate to arrive in the post?


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## chainsawjob (Aug 4, 2018)

Usually just the award letter does for proof of benefit, it's what I've used for various things. I've never been sent anything further.

And good luck Wilf.


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## iona (Aug 4, 2018)

og ogilby said:


> My girlfriend just got a letter from DWP to confirm she has been awarded pip but do they also send a separate certificate of entitlement as that's what she's been asked to send to DVLA to get a refund on her car tax.
> 
> Will the confirmation letter do, or does she just wait for a certificate to arrive in the post?



My award letters included a "statement of entitlement" page - looks like this:


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## og ogilby (Aug 4, 2018)

Thank you. We've found it now.


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## og ogilby (Aug 8, 2018)

Further to my girlfriend getting awarded PIP, she's also just got another letter telling her she can get the severe disability premium added to her ESA. Google tells me that should be £65 a week on top of her current ESA payment. Am I right in thinking the ESA part of her benefits are only payable if she has savings of less than £6000?


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## Jackobi (Aug 8, 2018)

og ogilby said:


> Am I right in thinking the ESA part of her benefits are only payable if she has savings of less than £6000?



Assuming that she is receiving income-related ESA, the capital limit is £16,000, this is the point at which all ESA is stopped. For any savings above £6000 up to £16,000, £1 will be deducted from her ESA each week for every £250 or part thereof. For example, if she has £6,600, £3 will be deducted each week from her ESA.


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## scifisam (Sep 7, 2018)

J's been denied PIP based on a list of lies.  This means I'll no longer get carers' allowance and she'll be expected to pay £70pw towards the rent (which is what my housing benefit was deducted by before they accepted J was on DLA). Things are going to be extremely tight 

Obviously I've phoned up to ask for a mandatory reconsideration. Has anyone _ever_ had their decision changed at that stage? I've never heard of it happening - it's just to delay you appealing. Fuckers.


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## chainsawjob (Sep 7, 2018)

Oh no scifisam  

No sorry I haven't heard of people getting a decision reversed at MR stage, I don't know if it happens or not. Good luck with it though and any subsequent appeal. Fuckers indeed


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## BCBlues (Sep 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> J's been denied PIP based on a list of lies.  This means I'll no longer get carers' allowance and she'll be expected to pay £70pw towards the rent (which is what my housing benefit was deducted by before they accepted J was on DLA). Things are going to be extremely tight
> 
> Obviously I've phoned up to ask for a mandatory reconsideration. Has anyone _ever_ had their decision changed at that stage? I've never heard of it happening - it's just to delay you appealing. Fuckers.



I've not heard of decisions being changed at MR stage but we have had 2 changed in the time between MR and Appeal where the DWP must have realised they were being stupid.

It's gonna be tough for you that goes without saying but keep at it and all the best.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 7, 2018)

That's really awful and unfair, scifisam .
Is the £70pw deduction from Universal Credit? The flat rate non-dependant deduction is such a nasty policy.
Good luck with your MR and any appeal.


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## scifisam (Sep 7, 2018)

crossthebreeze said:


> That's really awful and unfair, scifisam .
> Is the £70pw deduction from Universal Credit? The flat rate non-dependant deduction is such a nasty policy.
> Good luck with your MR and any appeal.



No, housing benefit. Haven't been shifted into the clusterfuck that is universal credit yet so I have that to look forward to too.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> No, housing benefit. Haven't been shifted into the clusterfuck that is universal credit yet so I have that to look forward to too.


Obviously i don't know all of your circumstances, but you _might_ find there's a more leeway with housing benefit (ie if J is either a full-time student or claiming benefits or otherwise on a low income) but you'll have to apply for it/send in info about J's circumstances: [info about non-dependant deductions ] and you might be able to apply for discretionary housing payment if things become really unmanageable while you appeal [apparently you can also apply for this from the council even if you've been changed to universal credit].  Fingers crossed for you with this.


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## scifisam (Sep 7, 2018)

crossthebreeze said:


> Obviously i don't know all of your circumstances, but you _might_ find there's a more leeway with housing benefit (ie if J is either a full-time student or claiming benefits or otherwise on a low income) but you'll have to apply for it/send in info about J's circumstances: [info about non-dependant deductions ] and you might be able to apply for discretionary housing payment if things become really unmanageable while you appeal [apparently you can also apply for this from the council even if you've been changed to universal credit].  Fingers crossed for you with this.



70 was what they expected her to pay out of her student loan, after initially saying she had to pay all the rent. They're already reducing my rent due to a supposed historical overpayment, and I've submitted SO much information proving that they're wrong, but they just keep asking for more. Things like "send in all your payslips from your employer on 2012-13" despite this being from six years ago and me being self employed at the time. They didn't even tell me they were going to make deductions, or why, they just made an executive decision to pay me less rent and it took a while to find out why.

So basically they are not going to be helpful at all.

J's uni for some reason are also asking her to pay £650 towards her fees herself despite her getting the full loan. Presumably this will get sorted out, but until it is, she can't register and can't get her student loan.

I pay over £200 a month in utility bills (it's difficult to query huge electricity bills - "well, that's what the smart meter says. It's a two bedroom flat and I'm not running a grow farm!


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## existentialist (Sep 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> 70 was what they expected her to pay out of her student loan, after initially saying she had to pay all the rent. They're already reducing my rent due to a supposed historical overpayment, and I've submitted SO much information proving that they're wrong, but they just keep asking for more. Things like "send in all your payslips from your employer on 2012-13" despite this being from six years ago and me being self employed at the time. They didn't even tell me they were going to make deductions, or why, they just made an executive decision to pay me less rent and it took a while to find out why.
> 
> So basically they are not going to be helpful at all.
> 
> ...


This sounds awful. I can't comment on the benefits aspect, but it might be worth getting someone to look at those electricity bills and double check that they're even feasible for the property you're in. It's not unknown for power companies to spectacularly cock up their billing. You could probably start with taking your own meter readings and making sure they tally with what the bills are claiming.


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## scifisam (Sep 7, 2018)

existentialist said:


> This sounds awful. I can't comment on the benefits aspect, but it might be worth getting someone to look at those electricity bills and double check that they're even feasible for the property you're in. It's not unknown for power companies to spectacularly cock up their billing. You could probably start with taking your own meter readings and making sure they tally with what the bills are claiming.



It definitely is what the meter's saying, but also four times higher than it should be. There seems to be essentially no right of appeal without going to the ombudsman and they require you to have exhausted all appeals procedures, even though they don't exist. I really am much too tired all the time to be able to deal with it.


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## crossthebreeze (Sep 7, 2018)

scifisam said:


> 70 was what they expected her to pay out of her student loan, after initially saying she had to pay all the rent.


The Shelter link in my previous post - and I've checked on a couple of other sites too - says that full time students shouldn't have non-dependant deductions taken for them from HB 
"A non-dependant deduction doesn't apply to a full-time student during term time or during holidays if they're not working.

A non-dependant deduction does apply if a student works for 16 hours or more a week during the summer holidays. You may need to ask them to contribute towards your housing costs."​I don't dispute what you were told, but they seem to be wrong (I've seen council HB departments get things very wrong before), unless J has other money coming in from elsewhere, in which case it might be more complicated.

All of it sounds absolutely worry-making and exhausting and difficult, and you have my sympathies.


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## scifisam (Sep 7, 2018)

Thanks. I will email that across to them. They have a bizarre policy where they do read emails, but don't respond to them. But it's more reliable than anything else - they even denied the existence of evidence I'd handed in to the one stop shop.


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## equationgirl (Sep 8, 2018)

Sorry to hear you and J are going through this, scifisam dealing with councils is one of the things I loathe most in the world. If there is anything I can, just pm x x


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## Wilf (Sep 13, 2018)

Wilf said:


> I got Pipped this morning - previously had dla higher rate mobility component. The (atos) assessor was decent, non-confrontational and the like. Whilst I might get a couple of points on the personal care type questions, my claim was really about mobility. The interesting thing was she asked me about the distance between where I park and the door into work and then to the lift, but didn't ever ask me a straight 'how far can you walk'. As you would imagine, she asked how I got there and into the building (partner dropped me off at the front as there was no disabled parking - ffs!). She also watched me walk from waiting room to assessment room (10 yards or so). So it looked like her recommendation on that will be based entirely on her observations and an indirect question about parking at work.  I'd put 'it varies' on the distance question on the form.  Anyway, I'm assuming I may well not get the award, so not actually being asked how far I can walk seems like a potential appeal area.
> 
> Anyway, sorry, I just splurged that out. I've not been on this thread for a while, so solidarity to everybody else.


Surprising outcome: got the standard level personal care award, which I didn't have when on DLA, but knocked back for mobility (just got 4 points, whereas I had the upper level when on DLA). Financially, losing the mobility money but gaining personal care would leave me only about 5 quid a week worse off, so a lot better outcome than many have had. But still pisses me off as I'll lose blue badge and motability car - and because walking is always painful.

Under reasons, I got 'was observed to walk 18 metres, slowly with altered gait', but the assessor concluded I  could actually walk 50-200, on the basis of my meds, how I conducted myself and a couple of observations of things like hip flexion. I dispute some of the latter, but it pisses me off the notion that they could _infer_ how far I can walk without actually asking me or indeed addressing the points I raised on the form about rests and pain whilst walking. I'm just sending in the mandatory reconsideration thing.  Anyway, I feel bad moaning on this thread as I will get some money and I'm in work, whereas others really need the cash. But regardless, it's another example of how the process is rigged and based on anything but _evidence_.


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## iona (Sep 13, 2018)

scifisam said:


> J's been denied PIP based on a list of lies.  This means I'll no longer get carers' allowance and she'll be expected to pay £70pw towards the rent (which is what my housing benefit was deducted by before they accepted J was on DLA). Things are going to be extremely tight
> 
> Obviously I've phoned up to ask for a mandatory reconsideration. Has anyone _ever_ had their decision changed at that stage? I've never heard of it happening - it's just to delay you appealing. Fuckers.



I had my PIP daily living increased from standard to enhanced rate at the mandatory reconsideration stage. It is mostly to delay & discourage people from appealing though 

Do you/J have any kind of support worker/advocate who can help with all this? I have a support worker where I live who came to my assessment and helps with forms & phonecalls and I'm sure that was a factor in my not being refused PIP initially, and possibly with the MR too. Good luck with it all anyway, hopefully J's one of the lucky ones who does get their decision changed at MR.

E2a - you've maybe thought of it already or there's massive waiting lists or it's been cut completely in your area, but do you have a local advocacy service who could help with sorting stuff like the housing benefit and utilities bills? Hardly anyone here seems to be aware of it but I found out recently that my council funds a few charities to provide an advocacy service that can help with exactly that sort of thing.


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## equationgirl (Sep 15, 2018)

Wilf don't feel bad, taking away your blue badge and car is a big deal. Can you still get to work without it, for example?


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## iona (Nov 21, 2018)

I've been moved back to ESA Support Group at last, without a face to face assessment!

Only took 15 months of waiting since I sent my last ESA50 back, an out-of-the-blue work coach appointment that even they agreed was pointless, many phonecalls and much arsekicking by my support worker and an official complaint so thick we probably should've included a contents list


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## iona (Nov 21, 2018)

ash scifisam Wilf yous had any news yet?


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## Wilf (Nov 21, 2018)

iona said:


> ash scifisam Wilf yous had any news yet?


Nope. I think they said mandatory reconsideration 'normally' takes 2-6 weeks. Have a vague memory I requested it on the 22nd September, so it's just about 2 months now. They also took longer to make the original decision than was the case in their guidelines.


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## iona (Nov 21, 2018)

Wilf said:


> Nope. I think they said mandatory reconsideration 'normally' takes 2-6 weeks. Have a vague memory I requested it on the 22nd September, so it's just about 2 months now. They also took longer to make the original decision than was the case in their guidelines.



Ah, hope you get a (positive!) response soon then


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## chainsawjob (Nov 21, 2018)

That's great news iona.

Hope you hear from them soon Wilf.


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## equationgirl (Nov 21, 2018)

Excellent news iona  

Here's hoping for something positive soon Wilf


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## ash (Nov 21, 2018)

iona said:


> ash scifisam Wilf yous had any news yet?


Thanks for asking he got higher rate care and mobility and a long period (I can’t remember exactly) until re- assessment so good news.  Now just got to wait to see if they decide to roll out UC to people on CB ESA but that’s another story. 
Well done on your re-entry into the support group (sounds strange to be congratulating on such a thing but thats what we’ve become - eh).


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## equationgirl (Nov 24, 2018)

Nice to hear some good news ash


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## ash (Nov 24, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Nice to hear some good news ash


 Thanks  equationgirl - he got a dreaded brown envelope today asking him to apply to see if he is entitled to income based ESA (he isn’t).  It tempts people in by saying ‘you may be entitled to additional benefits’.  Interesting timing imo - I’m sure it’s a sneaky ploy to get people onto ‘New ESA’ which is basically UC.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 25, 2018)

Its been a few years since the grrrlf had her last 'medical' and she lives in dread of the next summons. The other day a big fat brown A4 form sized envelope arrived, and when I came home I found her hiding under a blanket.

I opened it - it is ESA3 (IBR) 06/18 form, with a letter that said:


> We need to look at your claim  to decide if you might also be eligible for income related ESA from 16 Nov 2013. If you are you may be entitled to extra payments. These are call premiums


 the 45 page form wants to know all about my person income etc etc etc for the last 5 years.

So as it sounds unconnected to assessments, presumably this is good? Why are they wanting to assess the last 5 years? is this related to us getting civilly partnered in 2013 - I did inform them at the time.
Any one else had these? Anyone know where can I find more info/ links / advice on whether its worth me filling it in?  Many thanks.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 25, 2018)

ash said:


> Thanks  equationgirl - he got a dreaded brown envelope today asking him to apply to see if he is entitled to income based ESA (he isn’t).  It tempts people in by saying ‘you may be entitled to additional benefits’.  Interesting timing imo - I’m sure it’s a sneaky ploy to get people onto ‘New ESA’ which is basically UC.


sorry I've only just read this - is it a ploy to move to UC?


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## ash (Nov 25, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I've only just read this - is it a ploy to move to UC?


Me being cynical thinksit could be. Even if your not entitled you may apply just in case and then could it be seen as a new claim?  Interesting?! I wouldn’t punt it past them.


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## ash (Nov 25, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> sorry I've only just read this - is it a ploy to move to UC?


There was a whole new claim form in the pack so it would be seen as a new claim I think.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 25, 2018)

ash said:


> Me being cynical thinksit could be. Even if your not entitled you may apply just in case and then could it be seen as a new claim?  Interesting?! I wouldn’t punt it past them.


Yes I wouldn't put it past them either. The idea of 5 years of back paid premiums is enticing. Even if she is entitled to something I'd think twice about filling in 45 pages about my money as well as hers. 

Does any know any more?  I can't image we would qualify.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Nov 25, 2018)

Always always always seek independent advice and a benefits check from a CAB or law centre or see if any charities relating to medical conditions have welfare rights advisers, eg Mind have staff/volunteers who help people with benefits claims and check your entitlement and can help you make sure you get what you're entitled to.


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## ash (Nov 25, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> Yes I wouldn't put it past them either. The idea of 5 years of back paid premiums is enticing. Even if she is entitled to something I'd think twice about filling in 45 pages about my money as well as hers.
> 
> Does any know any more?  I can't image we would qualify.


There is an opt out form which we completed you
Just tick if your partner works 24 hours a week or if you have savings of £16,000 and one other criteria which I can’t remember.


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## BCBlues (Nov 25, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> Its been a few years since the grrrlf had her last 'medical' and she lives in dread of the next summons. The other day a big fat brown A4 form sized envelope arrived, and when I came home I found her hiding under a blanket.
> 
> I opened it - it is ESA3 (IBR) 06/18 form, with a letter that said:
> the 45 page form wants to know all about my person income etc etc etc for the last 5 years.
> ...



I think there's something going on whereby the DWP incorrectly re assessed incapacity benefit to esa claims and they have been made to pay people back any shortcomings.
It sounds similar to your case. I've found this on Benefits and Work website which is linked but I recall seeing a smaller article, I'll try to find it later.

*DWP surrenders on ESA backdated payments*
Category: Latest news
 Created: 19 July 2018
The DWP has finally surrendered and agreed to repay ESA claimants all the money that was unlawfully withheld from them, it was announced yesterday. The u-turn follows the publication of a highly critical report by the Public Accounts Committee (PAC).

In March of this year we reported that the DWP failed to award income-related ESA to around 70,000 claimants who were transferred from incapacity benefit to contribution-based ESA from 2011 onwards.

Affected claimants are owed between £2,500 and £20,000 each.

However, the DWP had insisted that they were only legally obliged to repay underpayments from 21 October 2014, when the upper tribunal first ruled that contribution-based and income-based ESA are a single benefit and that the DWP has a duty to assess claimants for eligibility to both types of ESA when a claim is made.

This meant that underpayments from before this date all the way back to 2011 were simply being ignored by the DWP.

The PAC report, published yesterday, accused the DWP of multiple failures:

_“It failed to design a process that reflected its own legislation. It failed to subject that process to proper scrutiny. It failed to listen to its own staff, claimants, or external stakeholders and experts who told it things were going wrong and that it needed to slow down. And it failed to act even when it was painfully obvious that it was underpaying a significant number of people, taking over six years to take the necessary corrective action.”_

Committee Chair, Meg Hillier MP, commented:

_“Indifference has no place in the delivery of vital public services. It must be rooted out wherever it is found._

_“The Department needs to explain what it is doing to improve both its management culture and its ability to gather and act promptly on critical intelligence._

_“It must also set out how it will more quickly address the £1.7 billion of underpayments claimants miss out on each year._

_“Half-hearted Whitehall targets offer no comfort to people struggling to make ends meet because of Government mistakes."_

Within hours of the report being published, Esther McVey, secretary of state for work and pensions, made a statement saying that the DWP would be backdating ESA payments all the way to 2011. Claimants who have already received their backdating will have their case reviewed again to see if they are entitled to any more money.

Child Poverty Action Group, which had launched a legal challenge to the DWP’s original decision to limit backdating, welcomed the u-turn.

However, the DWP is still refusing to pay compensation for consequential losses, such as loss of free prescriptions, free dental care and free school meals.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 25, 2018)

ash said:


> There is an opt out form which we completed you
> Just tick if your partner works 24 hours a week or if you have savings of £16,000 and one other criteria which I can’t remember.


trouble is I have worked less than 20 hours and neither/ nor both of us have have 'savings' of over 16K which are the only  they mention in the letter. But I'm not sure what they are counting as 'savings' as the questions ask about allsorts of stuff.  Have rules about partners income changed?

I remember years ago, before 2007 civil partnerships came in, my income stopped the grrl qualifying for most income related benefits - she had, I think, council tax benefit and free prescriptions as those forms explicitly asked questions about your Man/husband/married - which obviously I am not. She didn't qualify for any benefits were the forms said partner/cohabitee and asked about my income. When they asked about any changes I had make an embarassing phone call, to ask 'what does living as if civilly partnered mean?'. Some one asked lots of questions about who did the washing up and what the neighbours thought.  Aparently it meant an end to those benefits too. Oh the romance.


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## chainsawjob (Nov 28, 2018)

Brown envelope yesterday, PIP reassessement, it's less than a year since I got through the last one (moving from DLA). Fuck this. Took it rather badly yesterday. Moving towards not letting the bastards grind me down today 

Sorry I haven't said anything friendofdorothy, my first thought was it's the backpay from when they fucked up when people were switched from Incapacity to ESA. Hope so. Sorry haven't read everything that's been said since you first posted about this.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 28, 2018)

chainsawjob said:


> Brown envelope yesterday, PIP reassessement, it's less than a year since I got through the last one (moving from DLA). Fuck this. Took it rather badly yesterday. Moving towards not letting the bastards grind me down today
> 
> Sorry I haven't said anything friendofdorothy, my first thought was it's the backpay from when they fucked up when people were switched from Incapacity to ESA. Hope so. Sorry haven't read everything that's been said since you first posted about this.


 Sorry to hear that. I thought they weren't supposed to keep doing re assessments so often. Do assessors or the type of illness a person has indicate when re assessment should happen - does anyone know what the rules about this are? 

Wishing you the strength to deal with the bastards what ever happens.

Mean time I've put the form to one side til I find out more, I need to do some serious research. Can't imagine they want to give us more money.


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## equationgirl (Nov 28, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> Sorry to hear that. I thought they weren't supposed to keep doing re assessments so often. Do assessors or the type of illness a person has indicate when re assessment should happen - does anyone know what the rules about this are?
> 
> Wishing you the strength to deal with the bastards what ever happens.
> 
> Mean time I've put the form to one side til I find out more, I need to do some serious research. Can't imagine they want to give us more money.


Now I did read something about them underpaying, there's been a court case about it, so it does seem legit. That said, I understand the reticence to give them more information, I would be very sceptical too.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 28, 2018)

equationgirl said:


> Now I did read something about them underpaying, there's been a court case about it, so it does seem legit. That said, I understand the reticence to give them more information, I would be very sceptical too.


Even if I might qualify, filling in the 45 page form is daunting. Particularly when it asks for a single 'amount' in umpteen different types of savings and accounts. What? a single figure for a 5 year period? doesnt say highest/ average or amount on a particular date - no idea how to fill that in.

There's a number to ring 'if you have questions about letter' which I want to call for info as a spouse/ helper/ PA / representative on earth - though the grrlf is worried even this will remind them she exists and will prompt a reassessment.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 29, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> There's a number to ring 'if you have questions about letter'


I rang it this morning - thank fully to the grlfs relief they didn't ask my name, her name or any details.

I asked is it about savings or income limits - we dont have much savings and I don't work over 20 hours but my level of income used to prevent grlf from qualifying before. She said it depended on the level of my income. When I said that the letter only mentions 'savings over £16,000' not income, she said it should be 'income over £16,000'. She seemed surprise the letter did not say this.



friendofdorothy said:


> it asks for a single 'amount' in umpteen different types of savings and accounts. What? a single figure for a 5 year period?


  she said they want it completed with the amounts from the one date 5 years ago they mention in the letter.

So not ' _details of your circumstances from blah date 2013 to now_' as the letter says. or '_...have since the date we've put on the front of this form_'  as it says above the questions in the form. The form repeatedly says '_.. since the date we've put on the form_' in nearly all qs in the form.

Seems odd that phone advice and letter say such different things. I may phone again to see if they still say the same thing.


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## Jackobi (Nov 29, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> I asked is it about savings or income limits - we dont have much savings and I don't work over 20 hours but my level of income used to prevent grlf from qualifying before. She said it depended on the level of my income. When I said that the letter only mentions 'savings over £16,000' not income, she said it should be 'income over £16,000'. She seemed surprise the letter did not say this.



It sounds like she does not know what she is talking about. The £16,000 saving limit is relevant as that is the capital limit for working age people receiving means-tested benefits.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 29, 2018)

Jackobi said:


> It sounds like she does not know what she is talking about. The £16,000 saving limit is relevant as that is the capital limit for working age people receiving means-tested benefits.


But they ask a awful lot of questions about income - is there an income limit for partners of people applying for means-tested benefits?


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## Jackobi (Nov 29, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> But they ask a awful lot of questions about income - is there an income limit for partners of people applying for means-tested benefits?



There is no specific limit, it depends on your household circumstances and what other benefits you receive if any. It is not a simple case of X earns Y therefore there is no entitlement. The letter is correct in that it specifies a hard limit of £16,000 in savings as that amount in savings would disqualify a single person/couple from receiving any means-tested benefits at all, any savings above £6,000 but below £16,000 would affect full entitlement and result in a reduction. Any savings below £6,000 are irrelevant as they are disregarded.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 29, 2018)

I've just followed the links on the Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) and found this calculator  Where you live which was very helpful


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## ash (Nov 29, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> I've just followed the links on the Employment and Support Allowance (ESA) and found this calculator  Where you live which was very helpful


Interesting thanks


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 29, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> But they ask a awful lot of questions about income - is there an income limit for partners of people applying for means-tested benefits?



in answer to this specific, then yes and no.  any means tested benefits consider the income / savings of both partners.  in the context of benefits, a partner does not have to be married / civil partnered (it's about the only time the state does recognise 'common law' partners - although same sex partners were not recognised by the benefits system until civil partnership became a thing in 2005 - before then this generally worked in favour of same sex couples as one partner could claim means tested benefits even if partner was on a good wage)

but as Jackobi has said, the 'limit' for income related benefits will vary according to age / circumstances (and where rent / council tax are involved, what  they are)

i was about to suggest the benefits calculator on 'entitled to' - if your income is borderline for the two of you to get means tested benefits as a couple, then it might be worth making a claim.  if it's some way above, then it's not going to be worth the effort.

and at the risk of stating the obvious, housing benefit / council tax reduction are not 'all or nothing' - if you get means tested benefits from DWP then you'd get maximum on housing benefit / council tax reduction, if your income is a bit higher than that you might still get something



friendofdorothy said:


> and when I came home I found her hiding under a blanket.


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## scifisam (Nov 29, 2018)

Friendofdorothy, am I right in assuming your GF only gets DLA or PIP? They're not actually affected by income at all. If you do decide to fill in the ridiculously long form for possible ESA payments it won't move her onto UC or affect her PIP. And it might actually be worth looking into housing benefit or council tax reduction anyway if you don't get them.

Iona, thanks for asking before  The mandatory reconsideration actually awarded her PIP  At the lower rate, one point off the higher rate because bizarrely she got no points at all for the communications section, basically because I was there with her and helped with communication. As if you'd give someone no points for mobility because someone carried them in.  (Might have happened!) 

I'm not going to appeal though because I'm too ill to do it and this at least solves our most pressing potential problems. Next time she gets assessed I'll go with her, sit outside, then let her call me in when she can't tell them her date of birth.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 30, 2018)

for anyone dealing with this shit


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## chainsawjob (Nov 30, 2018)

Glad to hear your outcome scifisam, sorry to hear you're too ill to appeal. How frustrating it was one point short of the higher rate, and crap that they assessed her communication abilities like that  It's so harsh and inhumane.

Cheers for the sympathies to all dealing with this shit fishfinger, appreciated. Hope you're doing ok. It really is shit. I'm putting it off til after the weekend (which I will need all my reserves to deal with).


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## iona (Nov 30, 2018)

Really glad she got the mandatory reconsideration scifisam even though not getting enhanced when she should and your being too ill to go through an appeal is obvs shit. Swear they score tactically by knocking a point off here or there so you *just* don't qualify for standard or enhanced 

chainsawjob iirc they've been sending PIP forms out a year before the period recommended at last assessment is up. Good luck with it anyway, we're here if you need advice/support/to vent.


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## iona (Nov 30, 2018)

I have a social care assessment to look forward to at some point (when I get round to completing the referral form ). It can't be as shit as the Atos etc ones, right?


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## chainsawjob (Nov 30, 2018)

iona said:


> I have a social care assessment to look forward to at some point (when I get round to completing the referral form ). It can't be as shit as the Atos etc ones, right?



Hope not iona, wouldn't think so. Good luck with it, and thanks, I didn't know that about them sending out the PIP forms so early, sigh, grrr.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 1, 2018)

scifisam said:


> Iona, thanks for asking before  The mandatory reconsideration actually awarded her PIP  At the lower rate, one point off the higher rate because bizarrely she got no points at all for the communications section, basically because I was there with her and helped with communication. As if you'd give someone no points for mobility because someone carried them in.  (Might have happened!)
> 
> I'm not going to appeal though because I'm too ill to do it and this at least solves our most pressing potential problems. Next time she gets assessed I'll go with her, sit outside, then let her call me in when she can't tell them her date of birth.


 Congrats on the PIP.  Really sorry you are too ill to appeal, thats a real shame, but I understand that the mental /emotional effort is just huge. This is how they grind people down, the process shouldn't be so arduous, gggrrrrh!  
Whats the time scale on requesting an appeal - does anyone know? is there any possibility that its something you might be able to look at when you feel stronger?



scifisam said:


> Friendofdorothy, am I right in assuming your GF only gets DLA or PIP? They're not actually affected by income at all. If you do decide to fill in the ridiculously long form for possible ESA payments it won't move her onto UC or affect her PIP.


 Thanks Sam. She was on DLA, then Incapacity,  which became ESA in the support group, not qualified for anything else because of my income. She was just a little paranoid, but with just reason, she didn't want to put her head above the parapet in case it prompted them to reassess her.  Its all ok though. Thank you x


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 1, 2018)

iona said:


> I have a social care assessment to look forward to at some point (when I get round to completing the referral form ). It can't be as shit as the Atos etc ones, right?


hope it goes well and you get the help you need.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 1, 2018)

Puddy_Tat said:


> in the context of benefits, a partner does not have to be married / civil partnered (it's about the only time the state does recognise 'common law' partners - although same sex partners were not recognised by the benefits system until civil partnership became a thing in 2005 - before then this generally worked in favour of same sex couples as one partner could claim means tested benefits even if partner was on a good wage)


 Thank you for advice and hugs Puddy_Tat

Yes the law worked slightly in our favour for a little while as grlf got ill in 2004. I never lied but if the forms said as you living as husband/wife etc we answered honestly 'no'. Having campaigned for equality all my adult life - I was miffed that it finally arrived at the one time in our lives that we were relying on benefits. Bad timing.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 1, 2018)

BCBlues said:


> I think there's something going on whereby the DWP incorrectly re assessed incapacity benefit to esa claims and they have been made to pay people back any shortcomings.
> It sounds similar to your case. I've found this on Benefits and Work website which is linked but I recall seeing a smaller article, I'll try to find it later.
> 
> *DWP surrenders on ESA backdated payments*
> ...


That was very informative - explains everything - thank you!


----------



## scifisam (Dec 1, 2018)

friendofdorothy said:


> Congrats on the PIP.  Really sorry you are too ill to appeal, thats a real shame, but I understand that the mental /emotional effort is just huge. This is how they grind people down, the process shouldn't be so arduous, gggrrrrh!
> Whats the time scale on requesting an appeal - does anyone know? is there any possibility that its something you might be able to look at when you feel stronger?
> 
> Thanks Sam. She was on DLA, then Incapacity,  which became ESA in the support group, not qualified for anything else because of my income. She was just a little paranoid, but with just reason, she didn't want to put her head above the parapet in case it prompted them to reassess her.  Its all ok though. Thank you x



DLA and PIP aren't dependant on income though. The application for PIP is horrible and long but it is also a fair whack of money - probably worth considering at some point.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 10, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Brown envelope yesterday, PIP reassessement, it's less than a year since I got through the last one (moving from DLA). Fuck this. Took it rather badly yesterday. Moving towards not letting the bastards grind me down today





chainsawjob said:


> It really is shit. I'm putting it off til after the weekend.



I finally dealt with the brown envelope of doom last week (I rang just before the return deadline, before Christmas, and they gave me an extra 2 and a half weeks). The whole thing put me in a downward spiral mh-wise, at my worst time of year anyway, and I just couldn't even look at it until Christmas was over. Done now anyway. It wasn't quite the whole thing (as when I first applied for PIP), the form wanted to know if anything had changed, but it was all the same questions (with a couple sneakily re-worded/changed emphasis slightly) and still a bloody long form, so I basically put what I'd put last time with a few more bits for clarification. It was unnerving not having to send copious additional supporting evidence, as they didn't want anything I'd sent before, and I don't have any new evidence to send (wasn't up to asking for any, maybe I should have done  ). I might still ask one new mh professional I'm seeing to write me something I can send in, I've already asked and they're willing to. So yeah, as far as I can tell, it's 'has anything changed', rather than complete reassessment, but I'm sure the outcome can still be they stop my benefit, and although it says 'answer this or we might have to see you face to face', I reckon they'll still want to see me regardless.

I also got, in December, the same form you got friendofdorothy about maybe being owed more ESA from the switch from IB. I don't think I am (I got 'top-up' payments at the time, so my ESA wasn't less than the IB had been). And frankly fuck that to giving them details of all our income going back (would be near impossible anyway), so I've just ignored it. Might send it back saying partner was earning (even though he was unemployed a fair while), just can't deal with the headfuck. Hope yours got sorted in the end, I expect they make it as tortuous and lengthy a process as possible to deter people, as they do with everything 

Did you get your social care assessment iona?


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 10, 2019)

Came across this the other day Bungling DWP announces seventh review of disability benefits errors in a year



> The latest review is necessary because of an upper tribunal ruling in the case of a claimant moving from disability living allowance (DLA) to personal independence payment (PIP) who had his DLA stopped because he had failed to attend an Atos face-to-face assessment.
> 
> The upper tribunal found that the claimant, OM <snip> had “good reason” for not attending the PIP assessment that the government contractor Atos had told his wife he would have to attend in one of its London centres.
> 
> The upper tribunal found that OM should have his DLA reinstated until a final decision was made on his PIP claim, while he should also receive backdated payments from the date DWP stopped his DLA.



This is exactly what happened to me when I switched from DLA to PIP! Had my DLA stopped and my PIP claim ended for failing to attend without 'good reason'. I was on the point of going to tribunal to appeal this decision when they thankfully decided  to offer me another appointment, having presumably been persuaded I did have 'good reason' after all. It was all the advice and support I got on this thread that made me stick with it and oppose them, and persist in applying for PIP  I'd have given up at that point otherwise, and I wonder how many others in that situation did 

These reviews they do though, it's only grudgingly cos they're forced to, they don't really 'mean it', and they'll still make it as hard as possible for people to get redress  They rely on people giving up because it's all too difficult


----------



## iona (Jan 10, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Did you get your social care assessment iona?


Not yet, only put the referral in last month. Been told they have a long waiting list and I'm not an "urgent" case so could be a while till I hear anything. Ta for asking 

Glad you've got that form out the way now, fingers crossed they won't want you in for a face-to-face reassessment.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 11, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> I finally dealt with the brown envelope of doom last week (I rang just before the return deadline, before Christmas, and they gave me an extra 2 and a half weeks). The whole thing put me in a downward spiral mh-wise, at my worst time of year anyway, and I just couldn't even look at it until Christmas was over. Done now anyway. It wasn't quite the whole thing (as when I first applied for PIP), the form wanted to know if anything had changed, but it was all the same questions (with a couple sneakily re-worded/changed emphasis slightly) and still a bloody long form, so I basically put what I'd put last time with a few more bits for clarification. It was unnerving not having to send copious additional supporting evidence, as they didn't want anything I'd sent before, and I don't have any new evidence to send (wasn't up to asking for any, maybe I should have done  ). I might still ask one new mh professional I'm seeing to write me something I can send in, I've already asked and they're willing to. So yeah, as far as I can tell, it's 'has anything changed', rather than complete reassessment, but I'm sure the outcome can still be they stop my benefit, and although it says 'answer this or we might have to see you face to face', I reckon they'll still want to see me regardless.
> 
> I also got, in December, the same form you got friendofdorothy about maybe being owed more ESA from the switch from IB. I don't think I am (I got 'top-up' payments at the time, so my ESA wasn't less than the IB had been). And frankly fuck that to giving them details of all our income going back (would be near impossible anyway), so I've just ignored it. Might send it back saying partner was earning (even though he was unemployed a fair while), just can't deal with the headfuck. Hope yours got sorted in the end, I expect they make it as tortuous and lengthy a process as possible to deter people, as they do with everything
> 
> Did you get your social care assessment iona?


Glad you were able to finally face it. 
Hope its all ok for you - fingers crossed x


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 11, 2019)

Thanks friendofdorothy

Thanks iona


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 13, 2019)

Well done chainsawjob the forms are such a headfuck x


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## chainsawjob (Jan 14, 2019)

Thanks equationgirl

I don't think I got a report after my last medical, or it's buried somewhere, so that's my task this week, to obtain one, so I know what points I got last time. Once I've sent a form in, or got a decision, I tend to shove everything out of sight somewhere, my paperwork is rather disorganised. I should take pics of letters when I get them, for when I inevitably lose track of them


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 14, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks equationgirl
> 
> I don't think I got a report after my last medical, or it's buried somewhere, so that's my task this week, to obtain one, so I know what points I got last time. Once I've sent a form in, or got a decision, I tend to shove everything out of sight somewhere, my paperwork is rather disorganised. I should take pics of letters when I get them, for when I inevitably lose track of them


I put things in a safe place, then can't remember where that is. I like your idea of taking a photo as soon as they come in.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jan 14, 2019)

I just thought of that equationgirl! I do it for other important documents and stuff.


----------



## passenger (Feb 5, 2019)

My PIP runs out in April this year, I cancelled two appointments because I wanted 
a home visit they said I had to go them, they sent me a letter for an appointment
but I had to cancel this so I was told I would get another letter  for a new meeting 
 but never got a letter still being paid this has been going for 6 months what should I do
Thanks... in advance.


----------



## iona (Feb 5, 2019)

Did they say you'd be sent another appointment after you cancelled the second one passenger? Was that six months ago and you've had no letters about your PIP since?


----------



## Paul007 (Feb 5, 2019)

ymu said:


> CAB have just published some new research:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They make there own rules


----------



## passenger (Feb 5, 2019)

iona said:


> Did they say you'd be sent another appointment after you cancelled the second one passenger? Was that six months ago and you've had no letters about your PIP since?


Yes correct seems a bit odd iona


----------



## iona (Feb 5, 2019)

passenger said:


> Yes correct seems a bit odd iona



I think officially you're only meant to be allowed to cancel one appointment (unless you have a good enough reason presumably, I can have a look for the rules later if you want). You were told they'd send you a new appt though so I'd just mention that on the phone and that you've still not heard anything rather than going into detail.

Not sure what'd happen if you just keep on ignoring it, probably they'd stop your money in April then you'd have to go without it until you got a new assessment sorted. That's just a guess though.


----------



## passenger (Feb 5, 2019)

They told me it was ok to cancel it i called a few months ago and they said a letter
would come re another assessment and all was ok  iona


----------



## iona (Feb 5, 2019)

passenger said:


> They told me it was ok to cancel it i called a few months ago and they said a letter
> would come re another assessment and all was ok  iona



That was the second time you cancelled an appointment they said that? Might well be ok, it seems to be hit & miss whether they bother enforcing that rule and I don't know what reasons you gave for either cancellation.

I'd be phoning to chase it up personally though after hearing nothing for six months, especially if they could (afaik) stop your PIP in April.


----------



## passenger (Feb 5, 2019)

iona said:


> I'd be phoning to chase it up personally though after hearing nothing for six months, especially if they could (afaik) stop your PIP in April.


Good advise was thinking the same


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## chainsawjob (Feb 6, 2019)

ESA now being reassessed on top of being in the middle of PIP reassessment. Shit.


----------



## iona (Feb 6, 2019)

Sounds like a plan passenger, hope the call goes ok.



chainsawjob said:


> ESA now being reassessed on top of being in the middle of PIP reassessment. Shit.



Shit, sorry to hear that mate. They take so fucking long though, hopefully there'll not actually be that much overlap. What stage you at now with both?


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 7, 2019)

Thanks iona. I just got the ESA50 yesterday. The PIP, I'm expecting a letter about a face to face appointment any day now, depending on how backlogged they are. It's been a few weeks since I returned the form.

Getting the ESA letter as well, I just felt ready to give up. It just all makes me nosedive.


----------



## iona (Feb 7, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Thanks iona. I just got the ESA50 yesterday. The PIP, I'm expecting a letter about a face to face appointment any day now, depending on how backlogged they are. It's been a few weeks since I returned the form.
> 
> Getting the ESA letter as well, I just felt ready to give up. It just all makes me nosedive.



Do you know when your PIP runs out? They can—and have been, I've heard—get in touch for reassessment a year before that date so might be a while till your appointment, if that makes you feel any better. (Not actually asking you to dig through your paperwork and tell me the date, just fyi)

Can anyone help you with the ESA50? Friend/family member or a support worker or benefits advisor?


----------



## iona (Feb 7, 2019)

Heard back about my social care referral btw. They sent an email asking me to complete the online form that I had to complete to refer myself 

Need to see when my support worker's about to phone them now, so they can decide how urgently they need to see me.


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 8, 2019)

That's a bit  iona, hope your support worker can help.

I'll check when my PIP runs out, I hadn't actually thought of that.

Just made a GP appointment to see if they'll write me a letter, and the earliest they have with the GP that knows me is 3 weeks away


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## equationgirl (Feb 9, 2019)

Thinking of everyone going through this process. 

passenger phone and say you have been waiting on a appointment letter for several months, hopefully they will send you one. Tell them when you ring that you would like a home visit.


----------



## xsunnysuex (Feb 10, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Thinking of everyone going through this process.


Me


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 10, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> Me



Sorry to hear this. Lots of good advice and support in this thread.

I'm wondering if my ESA reassessment is in any way connected to having ignored their letter I got about did I want to see if I was entitled to backpayments from when I switched from Incapacity. That big revision exercise they're having to do cos they underpaid a lot of people. I ignored it cos I didn't think I was entitled anyway (although perhaps am), and cos I couldn't face another mega form, esp wanting details of my partner's income going back to 2013. And then they rang _him_! Fuck knows how they had his number, I don't let them keep a record of mine (although they do, and every time I have to tell them I don't give them permission to keep it on record and please remove it. They ignore me  ). Anyway, after the phone call (and they asked him for _my_ number, but he said he thought I wouldn't want him to give it to them  ), I replied saying I didn't want to claim backpayments cos he was working over 16 hours (which was only partly true), just to get them to stop trying to contact me. Then the ESA reassessment arrived a couple of days later. Maybe coincidence, or maybe I triggered it by my inaction, or them not being able to phone me. Thought it might be useful for others to know to reply to it just in case though. I've now had an acknowldegment that I don't want to claim backpayments cos of my partner working.

Haven't looked at the ESA form yet. Next week


----------



## StoneRoad (Feb 10, 2019)

I know someone who is being royally messed about by the benefit system - he's registered as permanently disabled and was on incapacity.
I've just found out that he and his wife (his carer) had less than £50 over Christmas week.


----------



## chainsawjob (Feb 11, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> I know someone who is being royally messed about by the benefit system - he's registered as permanently disabled and was on incapacity.
> I've just found out that he and his wife (his carer) had less than £50 over Christmas week.


----------



## equationgirl (Feb 11, 2019)

StoneRoad said:


> I know someone who is being royally messed about by the benefit system - he's registered as permanently disabled and was on incapacity.
> I've just found out that he and his wife (his carer) had less than £50 over Christmas week.


 that's appalling.


----------



## wtfftw (Apr 8, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Sorry to hear this. Lots of good advice and support in this thread.
> 
> I'm wondering if my ESA reassessment is in any way connected to having ignored their letter I got about did I want to see if I was entitled to backpayments from when I switched from Incapacity. That big revision exercise they're having to do cos they underpaid a lot of people. I ignored it cos I didn't think I was entitled anyway (although perhaps am), and cos I couldn't face another mega form, esp wanting details of my partner's income going back to 2013. And then they rang _him_! Fuck knows how they had his number, I don't let them keep a record of mine (although they do, and every time I have to tell them I don't give them permission to keep it on record and please remove it. They ignore me  ). Anyway, after the phone call (and they asked him for _my_ number, but he said he thought I wouldn't want him to give it to them  ), I replied saying I didn't want to claim backpayments cos he was working over 16 hours (which was only partly true), just to get them to stop trying to contact me. Then the ESA reassessment arrived a couple of days later. Maybe coincidence, or maybe I triggered it by my inaction, or them not being able to phone me. Thought it might be useful for others to know to reply to it just in case though. I've now had an acknowldegment that I don't want to claim backpayments cos of my partner working.
> 
> Haven't looked at the ESA form yet. Next week


While filling in my ESA50 I got the back dated income assessment form. 
Have just sent my reassessment off (woo! Now to wait for the sodding face to face) and think I should fill in the finances one. I only fit the criteria for about 8 months but that's enough at £16pw...


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## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

£16 per week?? is it really worth the hassle


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## wtfftw (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> £16 per week?? is it really worth the hassle


Yes.


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## HungryTommy (Apr 26, 2019)

I guess if it's a whole load of back pay, but otherwise, why bother?


----------



## BCBlues (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> £16 per week?? is it really worth the hassle



You must not ever have been that "hungry"  Thomas to realise how much difference £16 per week extra can make in many a household.


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## equationgirl (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> I guess if it's a whole load of back pay, but otherwise, why bother?


Because £16 a week over a long period soon adds up, and makes a big difference to a household. 

This thread is for support, not for criticising or judging people.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 26, 2019)

HungryTommy said:


> I guess if it's a whole load of back pay, but otherwise, why bother?


Well, one reason might be because the idea clearly exercises cunts like you.


----------



## existentialist (Apr 26, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Because £16 a week over a long period soon adds up, and makes a big difference to a household.
> 
> This thread is for support, not for criticising or judging people.


Well, he shat all over the memorial thread for victims of the DWP, so I don't think we can credit this one with very much in the way of sensitivity...


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 26, 2019)

existentialist said:


> Well, he shat all over the memorial thread for victims of the DWP, so I don't think we can credit this one with very much in the way of sensitivity...


Did he now...


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 4, 2019)

Are the DWP allowed to append a "no home visit" stipulation to a person's case when referring it to the WCA people?


----------



## WouldBe (Jul 5, 2019)

I've just had to re-apply for ESA.  
I got the cit advice to fill the form in.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 5, 2019)

Been stitched up by the WCA people.

They botched an appointment in 2017. Agreed to give me a home visit. Didn't, called me in to the centre and then confirmed i should be getting a home visit and that I wasn't to be seen that day. Then they didn't bother to attend the home visit they did book in March. Now they send me a nother appointment, again at the centre. DWP have said that I can't have a home visit but I can't know why wihtout making an FOI, and the WCA people have not bothered to record on my case log any evidence of the March appointment they didn't attend. So i have no evidence and no case in requesting the WCA actually do what they said they were going to do. Of course if I don't attend the centre...that's it, unless I can persuade the decision maker I have good reasons for not showing. Fat chance.

Also does anyone know what happens in the case of a no show. My appointment is on the 19th. They will send me a form asking me why, but am I correct in assuming that, in the meantime, my benefit will stop on that date and only recommence if they agree to my reasons (whenever that decision gets made)?


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 6, 2019)

I can see this is a waste of time


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## iona (Jul 6, 2019)

I'm not up to looking atm Rivendelboy but try the WCA handbook for info on home visits and missed appointments.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 6, 2019)

iona said:


> I'm not up to looking atm Rivendelboy but try the WCA handbook for info on home visits and missed appointments.


Where do i find that? 

Thanks


----------



## iona (Jul 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Where do i find that?
> 
> Thanks


It's the gov guidelines for assessment providers, google should bring it up


----------



## iona (Jul 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 6, 2019)

iona said:


> Rivendelboy


Thanks


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I can see this is a waste of time


If you mean asking questions on this thread, well it's not a hotline that's staffed 24/7 - people reply as and when they can. Which might be a few hours or a few days. 

If you want information about your case from the DWP make a subject access request under GDPR (data protection act 2018). They have to answer within a set time period. 

Freedom of information requests are for more general things like how many people were successful after appeal in retaining their ESA.

Hang in there, most of the time they expect you to give up. Be a thorn in their side.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 6, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> If you mean asking questions on this thread, well it's not a hotline that's staffed 24/7 - people reply as and when they can. Which might be a few hours or a few days.
> 
> If you want information about your case from the DWP make a subject access request under GDPR (data protection act 2018). They have to answer within a set time period.
> 
> ...


Forgive me, dealing with these bastards (the DWP that is) makes me behave like a twat


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Forgive me, dealing with these bastards (the DWP that is) makes me behave like a twat


Don't worry about it, you've enough to worry about right now. Like I said, we'll help if we can. 

The DWP really push people into despair, although there are some good people trying to actually help. Must be a stressful place to work. 

I hope you get your home visit.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 7, 2019)

iona said:


> It's the gov guidelines for assessment providers, google should bring it up


Unfortunately the relevant info doesn't seem to be in there, or at least not that I can find


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 7, 2019)

ffs double post sorry


----------



## BCBlues (Jul 7, 2019)

Very much what equationgirl has said including the bit where being a thorn in their side can only help and keep a record of everything.

Your query was difficult to answer too as none of us could know or never will what the DWP will do next. It always pays to prepare for the worst case scenario.

I think your best bet would be to follow the advice above in requesting a subject access request as to why you are being denied a home visit and at the same time let the WCA bunch know that you have done so and in which case can they put your appointment/visit back until it is resolved.
Like I say keep proof of everything, if phoning be sure to ask who you are talking to and take a record of time and content of chat.

It's a battle for sure, let us know how proceedings go then we can all learn for the next time.

Have a look too on the excellent Benefits and Work website. 

All the best.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 7, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Very much what equationgirl has said including the bit where being a thorn in their side can only help and keep a record of everything.
> 
> Your query was difficult to answer too as none of us could know or never will what the DWP will do next. It always pays to prepare for the worst case scenario.
> 
> ...


Thanks

I wish I'd kept the appointment letter from march. You live and learn the hard way with these people unfortunately.

The problem with the request is that it will not be resolved in two weeks

the WCA can't (so they say) cancel the appointment precisely because of this.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 7, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks
> 
> I wish I'd kept the appointment letter from march. You live and learn the hard way with these people unfortunately.
> 
> ...


I think that it's a good idea (from now on!) to treat everything that comes from DWP quite forensically. We know they lie and cheat, and it's quite likely that they operate in a way that they know disadvantages the kind of people they're dealing with, who are, generally speaking, not the sort of people who keep careful records and maintain files.

Start maintaining files. It's one more small way in which you can have an edge on them. They (like the Tax Credits people, whom I have had dealings with) absolutely HATE it when you write to them to point out that their letter contradicts what they said in their letter of 17th ult., and are much more - as the TC fuckers did with us - likely to back down than get into a battle of wits with clearly better-armed people than them. This shit, amid cost-cutting and corner-cutting, is all about low-hanging fruit and easy pickings. If you're too hard to extort from, they'll give up and move onto another victim. Shit, but there it is.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 7, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks
> 
> I wish I'd kept the appointment letter from march. You live and learn the hard way with these people unfortunately.
> 
> ...


Keep EVERYTHING they send you, if only because several posters on this thread have reported multiple contradictory letters on the same event, and it can be nigh on impossible to keep everything straight in your head.

I know you want to trust them to do the right thing, unfortunately they probably won't. Be prepared for lies and dirty tricks.

Take someone with you to your appointment. Do not go alone. They can take notes for you, if you haven't requested the appointment is recorded.

They will watch you as you approach the centre, watch you while you wait and while you depart. They are trying to catch you in a lie. Not because you did lie, but because that's what the system says about claimants, that they all lie.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Keep EVERYTHING they send you, if only because several posters on this thread have reported multiple contradictory letters on the same event, and it can be nigh on impossible to keep everything straight in your head.
> 
> I know you want to trust them to do the right thing, unfortunately they probably won't. Be prepared for lies and dirty tricks.
> 
> ...


Thanks, I understand the latter part. Always good advice though  Keeping people waiting is also part of the test. The whole thing is, as you know, Orwellian.

Unfortunately for me it's not easy to get someone to come with me. 

I would love to see a country wide support network. A community of class conscious comrades who help each other out with these things. Probably cheaper than going by bus (not that I admit that). Chuck in a few quid for petrol and solidarity ftw.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 8, 2019)

Slight update. The Assessment people called me back today (which is something, I guess). As you might expect an utter waste of time. I fi make a formal complaint (and I will) it won't get resolved in time of course. They are just hopeless. They say it's the DWP that have banned them from giving a home visit. I think thats true, from what the DWP have themselves told me, what I don't know is why. However I did point out that, following their no show in march, I asked them not to refer my case back to the DWP (didn't want to have it closed down). The options I was given afte I complained about them not showing up was either they just rebook or refer it back. I said the former. This guy on the phone tells me that they can decide to refer a case back regardless anyway. So in essence I had no say in the matter. They put me in this situation and then chose to fuck me over. I asked him why that decision was made and he pleaded ignorance tell ing me that I'd have to ask, guess who, the DWP. He couldn't (or rather wouldn't) tell me why his organisation had chosen to ignore my request to simply rebook the appointment (their third attempt at a WCA) and refer it back. I call that gaslighting.

That's just my case. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this here, but I'm sure there are people reading whose situation is far worse than mine. I don't even believe I'll pass the WCA. I'm convinced that, now, the whole thing is a waste of time. Maybe it's time to move on. Somehow


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 8, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Slight update. The Assessment people called me back today (which is something, I guess). As you might expect an utter waste of time. I fi make a formal complaint (and I will) it won't get resolved in time of course. They are just hopeless. They say it's the DWP that have banned them from giving a home visit. I think thats true, from what the DWP have themselves told me, what I don't know is why. However I did point out that, following their no show in march, I asked them not to refer my case back to the DWP (didn't want to have it closed down). The options I was given afte I complained about them not showing up was either they just rebook or refer it back. I said the former. This guy on the phone tells me that they can decide to refer a case back regardless anyway. So in essence I had no say in the matter. They put me in this situation and then chose to fuck me over. I asked him why that decision was made and he pleaded ignorance tell ing me that I'd have to ask, guess who, the DWP. He couldn't (or rather wouldn't) tell me why his organisation had chosen to ignore my request to simply rebook the appointment (their third attempt at a WCA) and refer it back. I call that gaslighting.
> 
> That's just my case. I appreciate the opportunity to discuss this here, but I'm sure there are people reading whose situation is far worse than mine. I don't even believe I'll pass the WCA. I'm convinced that, now, the whole thing is a waste of time. Maybe it's time to move on. Somehow


You might well not get enough points first time round (it's not really a pass/fail thing), there are many posters who report zero points first time round, but pursue it through the process and eventually get something including back pay. 

They want you to give up. They don't want to pay what you are due. 

Put in the subject access request on your case file (do it with the DWP and whoever you are trying to book the appointment with) to see why you can't have a home visit, why you've been banned from having one. That's quite intriguing. 

Is this the first time you've gone through the process?


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 8, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> You might well not get enough points first time round (it's not really a pass/fail thing), there are many posters who report zero points first time round, but pursue it through the process and eventually get something including back pay.
> 
> They want you to give up. They don't want to pay what you are due.
> 
> ...


No actually. This is a reassessment. 

I made a formal complaint with the WCA people via email. I don't imagine they'll do much. Why would they? 

I'm really not sure I can go through with attending. I know that sounds stupid, but there are people way worse off than me, medicaly speaking, who fail. I have no supporting evidence either. When it comes to neuro diversity my experience is that the medical profession are no use at all - and that's before mentioning benefits. It seems they are ok with people dying and with telling people they have incurable diseases but when it comes to supporting a benefit claim they want no part of it


----------



## xsunnysuex (Jul 8, 2019)

My brother has just been refused a home visit for UC. Really fuming.  
He's around 80% blind after a stroke.   Can't walk very far. Has weakness in his left side. He's unable to retain any information at all.
He's suffered mental health problems for a long time.  But it's gotten really bad since the stroke.
Apparently despite his gp sending a really good supporting letter for a home visit.  Nope.  Not good enough reasons.  Arseholes.
He was given a paper based assessment last time.   So didn't have to attend a f2f.
No idea why they think he's improved sufficiently for a full assessment this time. 
His condition hasn't improved.  If anything it's worse due to bad mobility causing weight gain.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 8, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> My brother has just been refused a home visit for UC. Really fuming.
> He's around 80% blind after a stroke.   Can't walk very far. Has weakness in his left side. He's unable to retain any information at all.
> He's suffered mental health problems for a long time.  But it's gotten really bad since the stroke.
> Apparently despite his gp sending a really good supporting letter for a home visit.  Nope.  Not good enough reasons.  Arseholes.
> ...


The lack of parity in power between claimant and system is a huge issue as is the fact all of this (and I include the WCA itself) is largely sans your own involvement. A decision maker, whom you will never meet or speak to, decides for you. WCA people decide for you. I have a huge problem with that

Are there any criteria that exist for a home visit, or is it just on their say so? Could you argue that the assessment centre is unsuitable, because it sounds like it would be


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## Celyn (Jul 8, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> My brother has just been refused a home visit for UC. Really fuming.
> He's around 80% blind after a stroke.   Can't walk very far. Has weakness in his left side. He's unable to retain any information at all.
> He's suffered mental health problems for a long time.  But it's gotten really bad since the stroke.
> Apparently despite his gp sending a really good supporting letter for a home visit.  Nope.  Not good enough reasons.  Arseholes.
> ...


That is very bad,


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 8, 2019)

Does anyone know how long a subsequent appointment would take to arrange if you cancel one as I understand you are allowed to do, one time. Do you get a say in when it'll be?

I ask because the person who might be able to accompany me is going to be on holiday, thanks


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## Celyn (Jul 8, 2019)

I  am sorry but I have no idea. It might mean depending on a civilised and nice DWP person, Explain calmly, clearly and very insistently  and they will get the idea. All good luck to you!


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## BCBlues (Jul 8, 2019)

Again Rivendelboy its hard to say, we dont know what tricks the DWP have up their sleeves and it can depend very much on where you live and how busy that WCA Centre is and who it is run by (Atos or Capita). 
They will try their best I reckon to re-arrange as soon as possible so that they can again refuse your claim and make you go through the even more pointless Mandatory Reconsideration process. Keep battling though, the Appeal stage that follows is the first real look at the DWP antics in each individual case and the first time your real health concerns will be addressed.


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Again Rivendelboy its hard to say, we dont know what tricks the DWP have up their sleeves and it can depend very much on where you live and how busy that WCA Centre is and who it is run by (Atos or Capita).
> They will try their best I reckon to re-arrange as soon as possible so that they can again refuse your claim and make you go through the even more pointless Mandatory Reconsideration process. Keep battling though, the Appeal stage that follows is the first real look at the DWP antics in each individual case and the first time your real health concerns will be addressed.


DWP must really hate that the appeals process exists. I bet they'd love to be judge, jury and executioner.


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 9, 2019)

Good luck Rivendelboy. I successfully appealed against them stopping my benefit for 'failing to attend' a face to face they made it really difficult for me to get to (well, they changed their minds before it got to a hearing) , and they gave me another appointment. Persistence and quoting the rules at them is worth a try (I quoted at length from their own decision making handbook, which tbh was open to interpretation, but I was able to prove they were breaking their own rules). 

That's awful xsunnysuex. Worth writing to his MP? Or quoting from their rules as I said to Rivendelboy? It's seriously wrong when they won't even listen to a person's GP, the system is pernicious  Good luck, I hope you get this overturned, do they say you can request they look at the decision again?

This was the stuff on having 'good reason' for not attending an assessment https://assets.publishing.service.g...uploads/attachment_data/file/473399/admp6.pdf


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

existentialist said:


> DWP must really hate that the appeals process exists. I bet they'd love to be judge, jury and executioner.


On ESA, you get no money during the appeal period. This might not be the case for uc but I cannot confirm as I'm not on it


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

chainsawjob said:


> Good luck Rivendelboy. I successfully appealed against them stopping my benefit for 'failing to attend' a face to face they made it really difficult for me to get to (well, they changed their minds before it got to a hearing) , and they gave me another appointment. Persistence and quoting the rules at them is worth a try (I quoted at length from their own decision making handbook, which tbh was open to interpretation, but I was able to prove they were breaking their own rules).
> 
> That's awful xsunnysuex. Worth writing to his MP? Or quoting from their rules as I said to Rivendelboy? It's seriously wrong when they won't even listen to a person's GP, the system is pernicious  Good luck, I hope you get this overturned, do they say you can request they look at the decision again?
> 
> This was the stuff on having 'good reason' for not attending an assessment https://assets.publishing.service.g...uploads/attachment_data/file/473399/admp6.pdf



Thanks for that, I think in my case (good luck to xsunnysuex) that it's not going to hold any water. I'm trying to get back to the DWP to find out why they've prevented (or even if) a home visit.

tbh in my case I probably could do _some _ work, but the system and support are so shit that it's really difficult. Can't say I find the prospect of going on to UC any more appealing, but I have saved the majority of my ESA for precisely this case. Being dragged into the JC is a real issue for me, I simply don't feel safe in that place (and that was when there was a functioning direct bus route). 

This system is so self defeating


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## existentialist (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> On ESA, you get no money during the appeal period. This might not be the case for uc but I cannot confirm as I'm not on it


Yes, What I meant was that the rate of overturning of DWP decisions by the appeal tribunal must really hurt them. It's obscene that they try to discourage people from appealing by withdrawing any benefits pending the claim.


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 9, 2019)

That's awful xsunnysuex[/USER do they say you can request they look at the decision again?

This was the stuff on having 'good reason' for not attending an assessment [URL]https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/473399/admp6.pdf[/URL][/QUOTE]

No they are not interested in looking at changing the decision.   
But we have spoken to a lady at RNIB.  She was disgusted.  She is going to put my brother in a 3 way call with dwp tomorrow to fight it.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

I don't want to turn this into the Rivendellboy show, but I've just spoken, again, with the DWP about this. tBF the people there I've dealt with have actually been helpful. Credit where it's due. They spoke with the WCA people who revealed that I have a PV marker on my case. This means "potentially violent"! This has floored me. I'm not violent and in no interaction with them or the DWP have I ever behaved thus. So obviously they aren't attending (even though they were going to) because of this. But this has only recently been added and I don't know why. The only reason I can think of is that the DWP, in going back over the case when the WCA people referred it back in April (which shouldn't have happened), looked at the symptonms I had noted on my ESA50. These include expressing difficulty handling certain situations (I can find social situations hard) and getting easily frustrated. But I had never intended that to be a violent hair trigger or a propensity for physically lashing out. It's just based on my neuro diversity.

I'm really shocked at this.

I asked again about the consequences of non attendance and, while nothing's certain witht these people, they did say that you get your money until they receive your reasons why. Then they stop it unless you have a rock solid case (or presumably don't respond within a certain period). Of course they could just do what they like and stop it, who knows for 100%


----------



## chainsawjob (Jul 9, 2019)

Sorry to hear that Rivendelboy, that's a horrible thing to find out. I hope you can get it reconsidered.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I don't want to turn this into the Rivendellboy show, but I've just spoken, again, with the DWP about this. tBF the people there I've dealt with have actually been helpful. Credit where it's due. They spoke with the WCA people who revealed that I have a PV marker on my case. This means "potentially violent"! This has floored me. I'm not violent and in no interaction with them or the DWP have I ever behaved thus. So obviously they aren't attending (even though they were going to) because of this. But this has only recently been added and I don't know why. The only reason I can think of is that the DWP, in going back over the case when the WCA people referred it back in April (which shouldn't have happened), looked at the symptonms I had noted on my ESA50. These include expressing difficulty handling certain situations (I can find social situations hard) and getting easily frustrated. But I had never intended that to be a violent hair trigger or a propensity for physically lashing out. It's just based on my neuro diversity.
> 
> I'm really shocked at this.
> 
> I asked again about the consequences of non attendance and, while nothing's certain witht these people, they did say that you get your money until they receive your reasons why. Then they stop it unless you have a rock solid case (or presumably don't respond within a certain period). Of course they could just do what they like and stop it, who knows for 100%


It may well be that it simply suited them to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. "We don't want to do any more home visits than we can get away with, oh look, this person who wants a home visit has difficulty handling social situations, wahey, we have an excuse to turn him down, back of the net, flag him as potentially violent."

Cunts.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

existentialist said:


> It may well be that it simply suited them to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. "We don't want to do any more home visits than we can get away with, oh look, this person who wants a home visit has difficulty handling social situations, wahey, we have an excuse to turn him down, back of the net, flag him as potentially violent."
> 
> Cunts.


Could be, but it was never put on their prior to them _actually_ arranging a home visit in the first place! What an unholy mess. Only thing I can think of doing other than giving up and maybe looking for a job/claiming UC (fun!) would be to ask for a postponment and wait till I can get someone to come with me.


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I don't want to turn this into the Rivendellboy show, but I've just spoken, again, with the DWP about this. tBF the people there I've dealt with have actually been helpful. Credit where it's due. They spoke with the WCA people who revealed that I have a PV marker on my case. This means "potentially violent"! This has floored me. I'm not violent and in no interaction with them or the DWP have I ever behaved thus. So obviously they aren't attending (even though they were going to) because of this. But this has only recently been added and I don't know why. The only reason I can think of is that the DWP, in going back over the case when the WCA people referred it back in April (which shouldn't have happened), looked at the symptonms I had noted on my ESA50. These include expressing difficulty handling certain situations (I can find social situations hard) and getting easily frustrated. But I had never intended that to be a violent hair trigger or a propensity for physically lashing out. It's just based on my neuro diversity.
> 
> I'm really shocked at this.
> 
> I asked again about the consequences of non attendance and, while nothing's certain witht these people, they did say that you get your money until they receive your reasons why. Then they stop it unless you have a rock solid case (or presumably don't respond within a certain period). Of course they could just do what they like and stop it, who knows for 100%


I think it's even more important that you submit a subject access request to the  WCA provider to find out when the pv label was added, by whom and on what basis. 

I'm so sorry they did that. I think the situation was probably along the lines laid out by existentialist and done to reduce the number of home visits.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I think it's even more important that you submit a subject access request to the  WCA provider to find out when the pv label was added, by whom and on what basis.
> 
> I'm so sorry they did that. I think the situation was probably along the lines laid out by existentialist and done to reduce the number of home visits.


I can do that, but it won't get resolved before my appointment. To get it removed, they say, will take another request as well.

Honestly, I'm a bit nervous at pulling at this thread. What else will i discover?


----------



## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I can do that, but it won't get resolved before my appointment. To get it removed, they say, will take another request as well.
> 
> Honestly, I'm a bit nervous at pulling at this thread. What else will i discover?


Probably a pack of lies and inaccuracies - like the claimant with inoperable terminal brain cancer whose report said it was a temporary condition. 

Just because it won't get resolved before the appointment, doesn't mean you can't put the request in. Then once you have all the information they have wrong or not, you can file a request to get the inaccurate stuff removed. 

I don't think they really think you're violent in any way, it's just a loophole to get them out of doing a home visit.


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## WouldBe (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> They spoke with the WCA people who revealed that I have a PV marker on my case. This means "potentially violent"!


That could work in your favour. Who would employ you if you were "potentially violent"


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## WouldBe (Jul 9, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Probably a pack of lies and inaccuracies - like the claimant with inoperable terminal brain cancer whose report said it was a temporary condition.
> 
> Just because it won't get resolved before the appointment, doesn't mean you can't put the request in. Then once you have all the information they have wrong or not, you can file a request to get the inaccurate stuff removed.
> 
> I don't think they really think you're violent in any way, it's just a loophole to get them out of doing a home visit.


That would also be good grounds to have any decision appealed and have the nutter health professional struck off.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> That would also be good grounds to have any decision appealed and have the nutter health professional struck off.


You'll never prove it though, let's be honest.


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## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> You'll never prove it though, let's be honest.


If you can prove it's untrue, through GP records, I don't see why not.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> If you can prove it's untrue, through GP records, I don't see why not.


I don't really have any supporting GP evidence. They've not been very helpful, and it would only be proven by a lack of evidence.

Anyway, no point going down this road until we hear back from these people. I've made a complaint with the WCA so that might net me a big fat compensation cheque


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## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I don't really have any supporting GP evidence. They've not been very helpful, and it would only be proven by a lack of evidence.
> 
> Anyway, no point going down this road until we hear back from these people. I've made a complaint with the WCA so that might net me a big fat compensation cheque


What do you have? A diagnosis letter? Any type of third party documentation?


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 9, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> What do you have? A diagnosis letter? Any type of third party documentation?


Initially stress depression and paranoia. I personally believe I'm ASD (I'm not an expert), but couldn't get a diagnosis.
I've largely given up on doctors. They haven't anything more to offer and I've pursued it with them to the fullest. I am better than I was, largely through changing my diet, however my fundamental issues are largely social based. To put very simply I find life and society an incredibly difficult proposition to navigate. ESA remains the least worst option I've found to get by. But in lieu of anything else I don't really know what to do. But the system doesn't really help move forward.


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## equationgirl (Jul 9, 2019)

Yeah that's true, it's a kind of holding pattern limbo. You can only do your best.


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## WouldBe (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> You'll never prove it though, let's be honest.


It should be quite easy if you've got a copy of the report that says you're violent. Would be a bit hard for the health 'professional' to deny being un-professional.

E2a: Even easier if they find you fit for work as they would be contradicting themselves.


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## existentialist (Jul 10, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> It should be quite easy if you've got a copy of the report that says you're violent. Would be a bit hard for the health 'professional' to deny being un-professional.
> 
> E2a: Even easier if they find you fit for work as they would be contradicting themselves.


There won't be a report. It will be a little bit of Chinese Whispers with no clear trail connecting Rivendell's alleged admission of social difficulties with the appearance of a flag on his file.

Everything with these cunts is about plausible deniability, from the neat stitchup between DWP and assessment provider to the total lack of accountability for decision-making within DWP.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

existentialist said:


> There won't be a report. It will be a little bit of Chinese Whispers with no clear trail connecting Rivendell's alleged admission of social difficulties with the appearance of a flag on his file.
> 
> Everything with these cunts is about plausible deniability, from the neat stitchup between DWP and assessment provider to the total lack of accountability for decision-making within DWP.


Yes. In fact I don't even really like discussing this sort of thing because to give voice to it can lea people to believe it because..."no smoke" and all that.

I hate that shit. Part of my psychology is that I can't deal with subterfuge or duplicity or hidden agendas. When people aren't honest I struggle. I just don't get violent.

I think that the WCA people, in passing the case back to the DWP (which they were not asked to do), attaached some furtive innuendo. According to the DWP what qualifies for this kind of marker isn't just a punch in the face, it can include Intimidation, Persistent harassment, or  Severe or persistent verbal abuse. Easily manufactured.
(source: https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/234137/response/578030/attach/4/Unacceptable Claimant Behaviour Procedure Process Guide v1 Final.pdf)

Unfortunately it seems that to get this removed requires evidence of changed behaviour, not just the person asking. In other words (and I could be wrong) that can only come from the WCA people. Gotcha!


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## existentialist (Jul 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Yes. In fact I don't even really like discussing this sort of thing because to give voice to it can lea people to believe it because..."no smoke" and all that.
> 
> I hate that shit. Part of my psychology is that I can't deal with subterfuge or duplicity or hidden agendas. When people aren't honest I struggle. I just don't get violent.
> 
> ...


I'd step back from the "gotcha" mindset, because it's going to get you nowhere. Take "gotcha" back to them and watch as you enter a Kafkaesque world where your (reasonable) satisfaction at having proved them wrong is swivelled into a perfect demonstration of your potentially violent status. It's just not worth it. They hold all the aces, so there's no point playing poker with the cunts.

And they *do* hold all the aces, because they're the ones with the money you need. I'm afraid you're going to have to be resigned to playing the long game - stick out calmly and quietly for your rights, gather evidence, quietly and assiduously as you go, and aim to be at a place, when it moves out of their hands, to be able to slam-dunk them with the evidence you've been collecting - including anything like this "potentially violent" nonsense. The tribunal will have seen it all before, and DWP, when they're suddenly presented with a catalogue of the shit they've been dishing out, will almost certainly - as they usually do - fold at that stage.

And just hope like fuck that there is an afterlife and a hell, and that the cunts who come up with this bullshit, and the craven fools who carry it out, find themselves spending eternity paying for their deeds.

Judging by the (*cough* anecdotal) rate of mental health problems at a DWP operations centre near here, you probably don't even need to wait for the hereafter- there are a LOT of very unhappy DWP employees.


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## equationgirl (Jul 10, 2019)

I thought I had seen all their dirty tricks but blimey this is a new low Rivendelboy. Holy shit.

ViolentPanda if you're around, and if you're up to it, please could you take a look at Rivendelboy's posts and let the thread know if you've seen this type of thing about claimants being labelled violent wrongly before? Any ideas or advice gratefully received.

Rivendelboy I completely believe you, i'm trying to understand if this is a systemic failure/loophole that's happening, a policy decision or a rogue assessor.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

existentialist said:


> I'd step back from the "gotcha" mindset, because it's going to get you nowhere. Take "gotcha" back to them and watch as you enter a Kafkaesque world where your (reasonable) satisfaction at having proved them wrong is swivelled into a perfect demonstration of your potentially violent status. It's just not worth it. They hold all the aces, so there's no point playing poker with the cunts.
> 
> And they *do* hold all the aces, because they're the ones with the money you need. I'm afraid you're going to have to be resigned to playing the long game - stick out calmly and quietly for your rights, gather evidence, quietly and assiduously as you go, and aim to be at a place, when it moves out of their hands, to be able to slam-dunk them with the evidence you've been collecting - including anything like this "potentially violent" nonsense. The tribunal will have seen it all before, and DWP, when they're suddenly presented with a catalogue of the shit they've been dishing out, will almost certainly - as they usually do - fold at that stage.
> 
> ...


"Gotcha" was clumsily referring to me - they've got me, and by the shortest and curliest. 

I certainly haven't "got" them. 

I'm not even sure I have any evidence. At least not for now: it depens on how they handle the complaint and what the FOI request to the DWP reveals. I wish I'd kept the appointment letter from March. But you live and you learn...the hard way.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 10, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I thought I had seen all their dirty tricks but blimey this is a new low Rivendelboy. Holy shit.
> 
> ViolentPanda if you're around, and if you're up to it, please could you take a look at Rivendelboy's posts and let the thread know if you've seen this type of thing about claimants being labelled violent wrongly before? Any ideas or advice gratefully received.
> 
> Rivendelboy I completely believe you, i'm trying to understand if this is a systemic failure/loophole that's happening, a policy decision or a rogue assessor.


Thanks, but given the subjective nature of the behaviours I listed it's impossible to tell. All the assessor people has to do is say "I felt threatened by his language on the phone". 

It's possible, if paranoid, that they could fake attendance and claim I threatened them in person. However that seems a stretch, though the reason I rang them on that day (though I can't prove it unless they have a record of that phone call) is to avoid them pretending they did turn up. I never dreamed it might be something like this (assuming it is).


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 11, 2019)

After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue.


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## BCBlues (Jul 11, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue.



Nice one. Well done


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 11, 2019)

Always good to hear of wins like this 


xsunnysuex said:


> After talking to the assessment centre and explaining how much the stroke has affected my brother. He received a call this morning saying he no longer needs to be assessed. His claim will continue.


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## equationgirl (Jul 12, 2019)

Nice one xsunnysuex


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## Gaia (Jul 15, 2019)

existentialist said:


> It may well be that it simply suited them to put 2 and 2 together and get 5. "We don't want to do any more home visits than we can get away with, oh look, this person who wants a home visit has difficulty handling social situations, wahey, we have an excuse to turn him down, back of the net, flag him as potentially violent."
> 
> Cunts.


Precisely. I've heard of cases where, when a HV has been arranged that the assessor has then claimed that the claimant has been aggressive towards them. I'm now being dicked around for PIP, part of my problems is autism and part of that is elective mutism stemming from childhood abuse. If any of you fuckers was sat in front of me, I'd not be able to talk to you ('unmedicated' that is). The problem would be further compounded by the fact that I still live with my abusers, and there abuse comes from the fact that they won't accept that I need people to accommodate me (if I suddenly became NT they'd be falling over themselves to support me). I tried to get out, but physical ill-health forced me back and I've now been stuck here for over 7 years without any help or support a) because there's fuck all around here (this is a Tory county) and b) I don't feel safe having anyone come to the house when they're here. 

If I was to have a HV, my fear would be compounded at them - well usually my mother - screaming at me to do so. I can't physically get anywhere, because I can't walk, I'm in too much pain. They believe the system is just despite me being a victim of it (to quote my father "They have to have some kind of assessment otherwise someone could simply say 'I can't walk, give me money'".)

I often think the 'PV' tag is a way to simply deny more people money. My suggestion would be to record it, just like a plod interrogation. You have to apply in advance and use of phones is prohibited, whilst this doesn't prevent all bullshit, at least it would prove you weren't violent. audio-recording-wca-assessments
Sorry for hijacking your thread Rivendelboy.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 15, 2019)

No need to apologise. 

It's a thread for everyone so no worries.

It's entirely possible they didn't attend my HV because they decided to bullshit me. That's one of the darker elements in all this: that it makes us second guess ourselves and become, justifiably, paranoid. People shouldn't be treated like this, but they are. I don't really think they intended not to turn up though, it doesn't ring true. The PV marker wasn't attached - so they say - until after the appointment. If it were there before they wouldn't have bothered booking it, I would think. But, again, who knows? I rang them the same day they were supposed to attend. Though it's entirely possible they didn't keep a record of that call, or could just lie to that end, I've done all I can. They can't legitimately claim I was at fault (not bothering to answer the door, or behaving violently during the assessment). Though of course the could just _lie_. Since they are investigating themselves....who knows what will happen.

I would be interested to learn, from those that know: does the claimant have to sign anything during a home visit? To show they've been assessed and have some proof that the person turned up etc? IIRC you have to sign (and show more ID than when you open a bank account ffs) when you attend the centre.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 15, 2019)

Does anyone know what the rules are regarding getting a WCA appointment changed or postpoened? I've been told you are allowed to do it once and then presumably you'd need a good reason (like being dead - although I shouldn't joke, I doubt they'd even accept that!)


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## WouldBe (Jul 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I would be interested to learn, from those that know: does the claimant have to sign anything during a home visit? To show they've been assessed and have some proof that the person turned up etc? IIRC you have to sign (and show more ID than when you open a bank account ffs) when you attend the centre.


Not sure but record the assessment. That way you will have a record of it.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 15, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Not sure but record the assessment. That way you will have a record of it.


Sure but not one you can use


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## WouldBe (Jul 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Sure but not one you can use


You can try.

Take their photo as they come up your path. They have no right to privacy in a public place so can't refuse.


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## existentialist (Jul 15, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Sure but not one you can use


The form seems to be - record it covertly, then have a friend "taking notes". Then transcribe the recording, and voila! Usable evidence.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 15, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> You can try.
> 
> Take their photo as they come up your path. They have no right to privacy in a public place so can't refuse.


Oh i see, no I haven't been permitted a home visit. That's what I've been talking about.


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## WouldBe (Jul 16, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Oh i see, no I haven't been permitted a home visit. That's what I've been talking about.


If you read your post I replied to you were asking how to prove you had had a home visit. Hence my replies.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 16, 2019)

I received the response to my complaint today. I guess I can't fault them for responding promptly. Just got off the phoen with the "customer" service manager (the sick are buying a service don'tcha know) to clarify a few things that weren't, imo, entirely accurate.

Essentially it's just clerical bullshit and miscommunication. They are saying that they shouldn't have offered a home visit to begin with and are very sorry a lot. With respect to the home visit that was booked, the person didn't attend because, upon examining my case notes, didn't feel safe. The PV marker was (apparently) there all along, as a result of indicating an "unstable personality disorder" (paranoia and anxiety/frustration I guess). So they shoudln't even have booked the appointment to begin with, especially in light of a lack of supporting evidence for one. So despite leading me to think otherwise, it was never going to happen. Not only that but their offer to rebook that appointment, after I rang to find out why they hadn't attended, was also a 'mistake'; apparently they have to refer cases back to the DWP, and it's the DWP who are meant to explain reasons to me, which makes no sense. The WCA people arne't allowed to communicate this stuff.

It's probably true - from their point of view. In other words it's just clerical/admin legalese bullshit. None of this addresses anything; they can conceivably mess me around repeatedly. I had rung earlier to rebook the appointment, which was easy enough (I can't do this friday as my companion is on holiday - hopefully he'll be available next time, if not I can't rebook). The complaints person ssures me someone qualified to deal with neurological issues (that's how they classify optical/eye related problems), but they didn't seem to realise I had changed the appointment. Why there isn't someone like that permanently on hand escapes me, you'd think that would be the norm. 

Don't know if that made any sense. I'm not going to type out the entire letter. They offered me £25 compensation (when they get around to paying it, I had to mail in my bank details which seems entirely reliable and secure practice). I did try and question that because honestly messing around vulnerable people seems otherwise something they can do with impunity. She asked me what figure I had in mind but I just let it go, I have no idea what figure and telling them to add a zero to the end just felt gauche as fuck! Oh well. I doubt they'd agree to that. 

It's all subjective. The problems are systemic and complaints like this will address nothing: lessons to be learned etc


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## Gaia (Jul 16, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Sure but not one you can use



Yes, you can but - and there's always a fucking enormous but with these cunts - you have to do it THEIR way, which means you can't, as I said before, use your phone. Did you read that link I gave you about the recording criteria…? Ask them to record it (you can't exactly do it yourself as they insist on a tape-to-tape machine and I don't know where the fuck you'd get one of those).

I don't suppose you've anything as useful as a CAB round your way, have you…? If not, I found this: Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks you might be able to find someone who can at least give 'em an initial swift knee in the bollocks. 

You'll probably have better luck finding someone than I just did with my postcode, had to expand to a 20 mile radius to get results. That's because this is South Bucks, there's fuck all here because this is what used to be known as the stockbroker belt (Knobhead Nige is one of my MEPs). 

This is why they abolished legal aid for welfare issues, because they know what they're doing is unlawful, so they've made is as difficult as fucking possible for us to get what's rightfully ours. 

Oh how I *WISH* Philip Alston's report was legally binding and not just advisory!


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## existentialist (Jul 16, 2019)

Gaia said:


> Yes, you can but - and there's always a fucking enormous but with these cunts - you have to do it THEIR way, which means you can't, as I said before, use your phone. Did you read that link I gave you about the recording criteria…? Ask them to record it (you can't exactly do it yourself as they insist on a tape-to-tape machine and I don't know where the fuck you'd get one of those).
> 
> I don't suppose you've anything as useful as a CAB round your way, have you…? If not, I found this: Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks you might be able to find someone who can at least give 'em an initial swift knee in the bollocks.
> 
> ...


Needless to say, there is no way they'd have let him NEAR anything important if there had been any risk that his findings would have been binding on the Government...


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 16, 2019)

Gaia said:


> Yes, you can but - and there's always a fucking enormous but with these cunts - you have to do it THEIR way, which means you can't, as I said before, use your phone. Did you read that link I gave you about the recording criteria…? Ask them to record it (you can't exactly do it yourself as they insist on a tape-to-tape machine and I don't know where the fuck you'd get one of those).
> 
> I don't suppose you've anything as useful as a CAB round your way, have you…? If not, I found this: Find a legal advice clinic near you | LawWorks you might be able to find someone who can at least give 'em an initial swift knee in the bollocks.
> 
> ...


Thanks but at this point it's over. The complaint got me nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it. There's no obligatoin for any of these people to give a shit.


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## existentialist (Jul 16, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks but at this point it's over. The complaint got me nowhere and there's nothing I can do about it. There's no obligatoin for any of these people to give a shit.


Just remember, they have millions of people to deal with; you have just the one scumsucking organisation of bastards. Keep plodding forwards, document everything, and be that relentless David, advancing on the Goliath with a sling and a handful of stones. Enough have gone before you, and landed them one right between the eyes (remember, that massive appeal overturn rate?). Stay with it, if you can, and do it for all those who can't stay with it. And if you're one of those who can't stay with it, be assured that those who can will themselves be hurling stones at the behemoth. Ultimately, it WILL lose.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 16, 2019)

existentialist said:


> Just remember, they have millions of people to deal with; you have just the one scumsucking organisation of bastards. Keep plodding forwards, document everything, and be that relentless David, advancing on the Goliath with a sling and a handful of stones. Enough have gone before you, and landed them one right between the eyes (remember, that massive appeal overturn rate?). Stay with it, if you can, and do it for all those who can't stay with it. And if you're one of those who can't stay with it, be assured that those who can will themselves be hurling stones at the behemoth. Ultimately, it WILL lose.


To be honest, I'm really at a loss what to do. I don't think I have any leverage at all.


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## existentialist (Jul 16, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> To be honest, I'm really at a loss what to do. I don't think I have any leverage at all.


Go through the process, because there's no alternative. But the big prize is the tribunal - just make sure that everything you do is about having your ducks in a row for that.


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## wtfftw (Jul 16, 2019)

Going to a medical isn't always a disaster.


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## BCBlues (Jul 19, 2019)

Universal Credit fury as claimants blocked from appealing against decisions Universal Credit fury as claimants blocked from appealing against decisions

Apart from the main article there are interesting stats in there that 74% of PIP and ESA appellants were successful in the first quarter of this year and UC stood at 63% but the number of actual appeals is falling considerably.
It confirms what most people in here have been saying all along that the DWP make appealing their decisions so difficult and arduous that a lot of people lose heart but those that can and do battle on eventually get to prove that the DWP have been performing very unfairly and spiteful along the process.
I cant imagine many other organisations that would not be pulled up about achieving a pisspoor succes rate of 26% on legally challenged decisions they have made.

Like I say, for those who are able it is crucial not to let the DWP wear you down along the way, get all the support you can and keep records of everything. Good luck everyone.


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## StoneRoad (Jul 19, 2019)

How's this for irony.
A couple I know are appealing their benefits claim, it has been the usual hard and long slog, and they have a tribunal hearing shortly.

Someone has dobbed a neighbour in for mis-claiming something or other, the neighbour has publically accused the couple.

How likely is that ? given the couple hates the way the DWP behaves towards them, and anyone else attempting to deal with them.
One of the couple has told said neighbour just how wrong that accusation is. Also in public and quite loudly, wjci garnered a cheer and round of applause from the other neighbours.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 28, 2019)

Just found out my companion won't be able to attend the appointment with me. Having already rescheduled, because they were on holiday, I'm guessing they aren't going to consider that sufficient reason to reschedule further. I do not see me passing otherwise


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## BCBlues (Jul 28, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Just found out my companion won't be able to attend the appointment with me. Having already rescheduled, because they were on holiday, I'm guessing they aren't going to consider that sufficient reason to reschedule further. I do not see me passing otherwise



From what I know they are very reluctant to reschedule twice and that in itself can lead to an appeal process.
Is there not anyone else who could tag along ? They dont have to do anything just their mere presence will (or should) make the assessor a little wary of outright lying.

This happened to me a couple of years ago where I had to attend an assessment alone because my friend herself was ill on the day.
Despite throwing this fact in whenever they could, I simply argued that there was no alternative and that just because I had managed to do this as a one off it should not be accepted that I am able to do this repeatedly, consistently and safely. It went to appeal and I won the case.

Keep battling if you can, its draining I know but from what I can gather from your earlier posts you are fully deserving.


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 28, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Just found out my companion won't be able to attend the appointment with me. Having already rescheduled, because they were on holiday, I'm guessing they aren't going to consider that sufficient reason to reschedule further. I do not see me passing otherwise


It may not harm you.  I  claim for mental health problems.  I had no one to come with me to my last assessment.  
I had already rearrange the appointment.  So I wouldn't have been allowed to rearrange again.  So I just turned up on my own and explained I'd been let down at the last min.  And as I can't cancel this appointment I had no choice but to come.
I still got awarded.   So if you really can't find any one to come with you.   It doesn't mean you will fail.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 29, 2019)

Thanks for the responses. If I only had to attend one appointment it would make all the difference. But i have a WFI a few days later, and despite rearranging the time, they didn't rearrange the location. It's still somewhere that's difficult to get to thanks to shit bus service being shit. Of course missing one means attending the other would be a waste of time. I just want to walk away from the whole thing. I've got £1700 in the bank (money I've saved precisely because I knew sooner or later it'd stop). I know that it probably sounds like venting, but I really feel that dealing with this system is becoming untenable. Humans can't function like this. I'm pretty sure that my WCA will be overbooked; it's always been the case, IME, that when you turn up they make you wait for ages. Part of the 'test' you might say. 

I could try and ask for the WFI to be rearranged but, as with the WCA, you get one 'free' postponement, so that won't happen. I don't know how easy it is to get them to change venues. I used to have these done via phone, but I don't think I can ask for that again; they always moaned about it when they spoke to me (though relented). 

I'm also tempted to ring up the assessment company and ask for more compensation. They offered me £25 (which they still haven't paid, of course). I'm not greedy, but I'm inclined to ask they stick a zero on the end of that. I didn't ask them before because it felt really gauche to do so. I don't imagine, now, they'll agree of course. But £25 for booking 3 appointments, not turning up for any of them, including a home visit they must have known they'd have no intention of attending (nor giving me any notice of the fact). Come the fuck on!


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 29, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I don't know how easy it is to get them to change venues.


They have been great with me twice when I asked to change venues.   No trouble at all.  
One even extended to wait for a few months.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 29, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> They have been great with me twice when I asked to change venues.   No trouble at all.
> One even extended to wait for a few months.


Was that for a Work Focussed Interview?


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 29, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Was that for a Work Focussed Interview?


A Work capability assessment.   Both times I was booked for Balham.  Both times changed to Wimbledon.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 29, 2019)

Some people try if to set up a Universal Credit Claimants Union but it appears to be fading. 

Groups I join on fb include well intentioned people, but no real help. Everyone is too divided, overwhelmed and atomised. How the hell do we fight this? We all know what must be done, but it just isn't happening


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 29, 2019)

xsunnysuex said:


> A Work capability assessment.   Both times I was booked for Balham.  Both times changed to Wimbledon.


I'm talking about a job centre appointment, bus service cuts mean the one I'm booked at for the wfi is no longer the nearest


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## scifisam (Jul 31, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> I'm talking about a job centre appointment, bus service cuts mean the one I'm booked at for the wfi is no longer the nearest



I was about to offer to try to come with you, but bus service cuts means it's probably not London.

But you might be able to claim back taxi costs. You can't for a normal jobcentre appointment, but for assessments you can. They're fairly reasonable about reimbursing those claims, IME (you fill in a form and get the money back and nobody argues), and it adds to your claim in a way, because it means you can't travel by normal public transport.

Rather than not get assessed at all, it would be better to go to an assessment and make it clear how difficult it was for you to go to that assessment. 

Even going alone and being forced to can actually help your claim; my daughter's last PIP claim was initially denied _because_ I was there and helping her and that made such a difference to her responses, because I reminded her to respond, had the paperwork etc. If she'd been on her own she'd have answered every question vaguely and got very stressed, but because I was there she was OKish. 

The appeal succeeded because you shouldn't need someone there to make you be able to answer questions. But it would not have been a bad thing to send her there on her own, wandering around the jobcentre baffled by the noise and people and unable to answer questions.


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## Rivendelboy (Jul 31, 2019)

scifisam said:


> I was about to offer to try to come with you, but bus service cuts means it's probably not London.
> 
> But you might be able to claim back taxi costs. You can't for a normal jobcentre appointment, but for assessments you can. They're fairly reasonable about reimbursing those claims, IME (you fill in a form and get the money back and nobody argues), and it adds to your claim in a way, because it means you can't travel by normal public transport.
> 
> ...


That's very kind. I appreciate the thought, but tbh I'm not sure I' dbe comfortable discussing personal issues alongside someone I don't really know (even though that is the very definition of the WCA)

I guess it's a crapshoot and depends entirely on the attitude of the assessor. They could interpret responses as they see fit.

I don't think they would refund a taxi unless you could demonstrate that was the only alternative. Their guidance leaflet has information covering what expenses they claim and it's meant to be public transport. It specifies taxis as an exception so I can't really pay £30 for a taxi and then be told they aren't going to pay it back. They still haven't paid th measly £25 they offered as compensation, though I did email a formal request that be raised. Can't say I feel comfortable about it but there's no way £25 is acceptable IMO, but then what is? They'll just decline anyway, I have no power in this. Maybe they'll be feeling generous, but why would they?


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 1, 2019)

They sent me a letter a couple of days ago titled "Remittance Advice". It seems to be about the £25 'compensation' they offered. It's dated 23/7 and just says my name along with "consolatory payment" and lists the 31/7 as payment date. I haven't recevied anything. Does anyone else have any experience of this? I did email them a ffew days ago, as I said, regarding an increase in this (because I'm greedy and 25 quid is a risible sum, plus I want a new guitar! I'm not even joking). They haven't responded to that so perhaps they've put this payment on hold. Unfortunately I can't get through on the number listed becuase the relevant staff is away till Monday! Has anyone else any experience of getting blood out of a stone?

(I probably sound like a massive arsehole, but that's what this system does to you)


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## WouldBe (Aug 1, 2019)

They will pay it straight into your bank account. Sometimes there is a delay in the payment going through. Give it a few days.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 3, 2019)

no £250 for me. They have declined my higher request, unsurprisingly. Still haven't paid me what they agreed to though


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

Got my WCA in a couple of hours. Hope it goes well. I'm sort of fatalistic about it since I really don't imagine passing.


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## xsunnysuex (Aug 5, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Got my WCA in a couple of hours. Hope it goes well. I'm sort of fatalistic about it since I really don't imagine passing.


Good luck. Just answer no to anything you can't do.  Never say "Yes but",   their software picks up on the "Yes" only so I was told..
Don't try and hide how your feeling either.  No brave face today.  Fingers and toes crossed for you.  x


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## Gaia (Aug 5, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Got my WCA in a couple of hours. Hope it goes well. I'm sort of fatalistic about it since I really don't imagine passing.



What - on a bank holiday…?! Seems very strange they'd schedule it on a bank holiday… Either you've got the date wrong - or, more likely, they have. The cynic in me says this is deliberate so that they can say you didn't turn up. I've never actually had a WCA -  has anyone else had one scheduled for a bank holiday, and it actually went ahead…? If the appointment is for today, I reckon that the DWP has the date wrong and it's supposed to be tomorrow.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Got my WCA in a couple of hours. Hope it goes well. I'm sort of fatalistic about it since I really don't imagine passing.



Best of luck Rivendelboy, remember to use your "worst days" as examples.


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## Libertad (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> What - on a bank holiday…?! Seems very strange they'd schedule it on a bank holiday… Either you've got the date wrong - or, more likely, they have. The cynic in me says this is deliberate so that they can say you didn't turn up. I've never actually had a WCA -  has anyone else had one scheduled for a bank holiday, and it actually went ahead…? If the appointment is for today, I reckon that the DWP has the date wrong and it's supposed to be tomorrow.



You are mistaken about it being a bank holiday.


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## iona (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> What - on a bank holiday…?! Seems very strange they'd schedule it on a bank holiday… Either you've got the date wrong - or, more likely, they have. The cynic in me says this is deliberate so that they can say you didn't turn up. I've never actually had a WCA -  has anyone else had one scheduled for a bank holiday, and it actually went ahead…? If the appointment is for today, I reckon that the DWP has the date wrong and it's supposed to be tomorrow.


Today is only a bank holiday in Scotland, it's at the end of the month for the rest of the UK.


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## iona (Aug 5, 2019)

Hope it goes alright and you get someone decent doing the assessment Rivendelboy


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

Thanks for the kind words, but I don't think I did very well. I don't expect to pass, but then I never did. I guess we'll find out. I was amazed I passed last time tbh. 

Thing is, I understand how you _should_ aswer the questions and that you should answer on your 'worst day', but in practice I find myself weirdly quiescent. I feel like I want to be helpful even though in so doing I'm shooting myself in the foot. My brain just can't process the deceptive nature of this process. 

I could bemoan the fact the doctor turned up 20 minutes after I did. Bureaucracy is funny like that I guess. If I'm late, in dealing with the DWP, it's insta-sanction or fight like hell. If they turn up late it's because the trains are running late. Just a routine double standard.

I had to be seen by a doctor (their word) because I presented with eyesight issues. That's why I couldn't be seen at the first appointment (perhaps the doctor's train was _really_ late back then) and why it's taken 2 years and 4 appointments. After all that he didn't even test my eyes. He just mentioned what it says on my (disturbingly thorough) medical notes: I have a nystagmus. I said that my eyes tire really easily and don't focus properly (they sort of wobble about and mutually support each other, which is tiring). That's it. No test. There were two eye charts on the walls and a laminated piece of paper on the desk with a phrase repeated in increasingly smaller font. I wasn't asked to read from them, and, perhaps foolishly, didn't bring it up. 

He did get me to bend down and touch my toes, lie on a bed and move my legs about. Not sure why given that I have no history nor any report of movement or limb difficulties.

What a joke.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> What - on a bank holiday…?! Seems very strange they'd schedule it on a bank holiday… Either you've got the date wrong - or, more likely, they have. The cynic in me says this is deliberate so that they can say you didn't turn up. I've never actually had a WCA -  has anyone else had one scheduled for a bank holiday, and it actually went ahead…? If the appointment is for today, I reckon that the DWP has the date wrong and it's supposed to be tomorrow.


Wouldn't have bothered me if it was a bank holiday  other than getting to the appointment.


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## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks for the kind words, but I don't think I did very well. I don't expect to pass, but then I never did. I guess we'll find out. I was amazed I passed last time tbh.
> 
> Thing is, I understand how you _should_ aswer the questions and that you should answer on your 'worst day', but in practice I find myself weirdly quiescent. I feel like I want to be helpful even though in so doing I'm shooting myself in the foot. My brain just can't process the deceptive nature of this process.
> 
> ...


Most have reported they are somewhat farcical. At least it is over for now. Be kind to yourself over the next few days.


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## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2019)

Gaia said:


> What - on a bank holiday…?! Seems very strange they'd schedule it on a bank holiday… Either you've got the date wrong - or, more likely, they have. The cynic in me says this is deliberate so that they can say you didn't turn up. I've never actually had a WCA -  has anyone else had one scheduled for a bank holiday, and it actually went ahead…? If the appointment is for today, I reckon that the DWP has the date wrong and it's supposed to be tomorrow.


Today was a Scottish Bank Holiday, not an English one. So no, the DWP didn't get it wrong and had he not gone, they would probably have been unsympathetic at best and not believed there was a mix up.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Most have reported they are somewhat farcical. At least it is over for now. Be kind to yourself over the next few days.


Thanks

I'm assuming the whole "you need to be seen by a specific assessor" is an insurance thing: it's for their own benefit. I'd foolishly assumed it meant seeing someone with some expertise in optometry, who would at least ask me more about my sight. But I think it's just so they can cover their arses if something weird happens during the interview or rising from it.

Laughable really.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 5, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks
> 
> I'm assuming the whole "you need to be seen by a specific assessor" is an insurance thing: it's for their own benefit. I'd foolishly assumed it meant seeing someone with some expertise in optometry, who would at least ask me more about my sight. But I think it's just so they can cover their arses if something weird happens during the interview or rising from it.
> 
> Laughable really.


It used to be the case that certain conditions required a specialist, but I think the last time I looked that had been done away with, at least for some conditions. It was a process requirement rather than a liability issue as best I could tell.. 

There's a ton of reports from claimants that have been seen by podiatrists or chiropractors for complex conditions, you're right about it being a joke, but if you're denied anything you have grounds for appeal that the doctor didn't do even cursory eye checks.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 5, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> It used to be the case that certain conditions required a specialist, but I think the last time I looked that had been done away with, at least for some conditions. It was a process requirement rather than a liability issue as best I could tell..
> 
> There's a ton of reports from claimants that have been seen by podiatrists or chiropractors for complex conditions, you're right about it being a joke, but if you're denied anything you have grounds for appeal that the doctor didn't do even cursory eye checks.


That's what I mean, it's just a tick box/clerical thing. Not anything meaningful. 

Of course, I can't prove that they did no cursory eye checks, despite there being two eye charts on the wall and, on the desk in front of me, there was a laminated sheet of phrases repeated with increasinly smaller text. I had assumed he was going to have me read from them. He did not. During my first WCA years ago (ah, memories) I was given something like that to read. Didn't make any difference of course.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 6, 2019)

So their consolatory payment/pittance didn't go through because they misread one of the numbers on my account number. ANother two days to wait for that. I guess it's better than £0 which is what many people end up with. Shouldn't have to be this way.

Apparently the whole thing with the specialist isn't to do with the assessment itself, it's that the assessor has to have the right "government training", whatever that is. This has completely blown my mind: even though the assessment is exactly the same and necessitates no deeper examination of the issue involved, the process still requires the presence of a trained specialist. Even though they will not employ that specialisatoin in any capacity. In other words, I could have been seen by the person two years ago with no difference in the process whatsoever. It's just she 'wasn't trained' and the guy yesterday was. You might be forgiven for thinking every assessor should be trained given the variety of conditionality they'd have to assess all day long.

I don't know whether to laugh or cry at all this, it's just so fantastically shit


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## ash (Aug 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> That's what I mean, it's just a tick box/clerical thing. Not anything meaningful.
> 
> Of course, I can't prove that they did no cursory eye checks, despite there being two eye charts on the wall and, on the desk in front of me, there was a laminated sheet of phrases repeated with increasinly smaller text. I had assumed he was going to have me read from them. He did not. During my first WCA years ago (ah, memories) I was given something like that to read. Didn't make any difference of course.



That reminds me of first time my husband was assessed for DLA or IB (can’t remember which) after a traumatic situation of being signed off from work as psychiatric nurse due to the NHS not making reasonable adjustments.
The “assessor” came out to our house and pulled out a screwed up snellen chart from his pocket and held it at a cursory distance.  He also said why don’t you find a job this DLA is not for young healthy people like you. He was registered partially sighted with a degenerative eye condition.
Looking back we should’ve thrown him out of the house but you don’t want to rock the boat.


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## ash (Aug 6, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> That's what I mean, it's just a tick box/clerical thing. Not anything meaningful.
> 
> Of course, I can't prove that they did no cursory eye checks, despite there being two eye charts on the wall and, on the desk in front of me, there was a laminated sheet of phrases repeated with increasinly smaller text. I had assumed he was going to have me read from them. He did not. During my first WCA years ago (ah, memories) I was given something like that to read. Didn't make any difference of course.



Moorfields eye hospital are even worse although now it’s clear from his notes that my husband wouldn’t be able to read a traditional  snellen chart they always ask him to attempt it it’s quite humiliating.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Aug 6, 2019)

ash said:


> Moorfields eye hospital are even worse although now it’s clear from his notes that my husband wouldn’t be able to read a traditional  snellen chart they always ask him to attempt it it’s quite humiliating.


Of course it would be very easy to just have patients be tested a little nearer the chart than maybe they should which of course could have sigificant though unfair results.
For me my eyes just tire. A few seconds squinting at a line of text isn't representative of a full day on a computer for instance. Even not on a computer my eyes still tire. Just how they are. 

I was sat looking at the charts while expecting at some point for them to be used. After all if someone presents with eyesight as an issue _and you have these charts _one might reasonably assume...


----------



## WouldBe (Aug 7, 2019)

I phoned the muppets up yesterday to check that my WCA would be recorded only to be told the machine was broken. "That's alright" I said, "I'll record it myself with 2 identical tape recorders." I was told I can't do that it says so on the gov.uk website. I checked and it doesn't. It says 'recording equipment must record 2 copies simultaneously' which 2 tape recorders would. Apparently the reason you can't use 2 tape recorders is that if 1 breaks down you will lose a copy. Whereas if their machine breaks down you lose both copies.. They are going to rearrange the WCA when a recorder is available.


----------



## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> I phoned the muppets up yesterday to check that my WCA would be recorded only to be told the machine was broken. "That's alright" I said, "I'll record it myself with 2 identical tape recorders." I was told I can't do that it says so on the gov.uk website. I checked and it doesn't. It says 'recording equipment must record 2 copies simultaneously' which 2 tape recorders would. Apparently the reason you can't use 2 tape recorders is that if 1 breaks down you will lose a copy. Whereas if their machine breaks down you lose both copies.. They are going to rearrange the WCA when a recorder is available.


Bear in mind they have about 10 machines for the entire country, and they get broken as they spend a lot of time in transit. Why they couldn't supply 1 per centre I have no idea.


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## WouldBe (Aug 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Bear in mind they have about 10 machines for the entire country, and they get broken as they spend a lot of time in transit. Why they couldn't supply 1 per centre I have no idea.


So chances are that they have one in little Chesterfield are pretty slim. So I guess they are lying about that as well.


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## existentialist (Aug 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Bear in mind they have about 10 machines for the entire country, and they get broken as they spend a lot of time in transit. Why they couldn't supply 1 per centre I have no idea.


Because not having any machines available is an excellent way of making life that bit more awkward for claimants, perhaps? As we know, DWP (or their supplier of plausible deniability) do like to make sure that the whole process is as oppressive as possible, and "we can't do a home assessment as there isn't any equipment" is certainly a line they've trotted out before now...


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 7, 2019)

I suspect it's as simple as not giving enough of a damn to bother to invest in equipment


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## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> So chances are that they have one in little Chesterfield are pretty slim. So I guess they are lying about that as well.


They might have one, I hope they do. You might want to phone up and check the week before, just in case. But if it is not working, it's their fault.


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## WouldBe (Aug 8, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> They might have one, I hope they do. You might want to phone up and check the week before, just in case. But if it is not working, it's their fault.


They are supposed to be phoning me when they have the equipment available. So that will be on the 3rd blue moon of the 13th month of the next odd numbered leap year then.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 10, 2019)

If I were to contact Maximus and ask, would they reveal what qualifications my assessor possessed? I'm assuming not.

I ask because, as I have this 'potentially violent' marker, if they score me nothing then surely I can make a more stringent case against them. This marker was the reason the home visit never happened, they have admitted this. The person claimed she didn't eel safe attending such a person (so they say). So that alone is concrete evidence, surely, that I am unfit for work. That cannot be congruent with me being found it for work (assuming they do).


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## Libertad (Aug 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> If I were to contact Maximus and ask, would they reveal what qualifications my assessor possessed? I'm assuming not.
> 
> I ask because, as I have this 'potentially violent' marker, if they score me nothing then surely I can make a more stringent case against them. This marker was the reason the home visit never happened, they have admitted this. The person claimed she didn't eel safe attending such a person (so they say). So that alone is concrete evidence, surely, that I am unfit for work. That cannot be congruent with me being found it for work (assuming they do).



Catch ESA 50. [/flippancy]


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## existentialist (Aug 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> If I were to contact Maximus and ask, would they reveal what qualifications my assessor possessed? I'm assuming not.
> 
> I ask because, as I have this 'potentially violent' marker, if they score me nothing then surely I can make a more stringent case against them. This marker was the reason the home visit never happened, they have admitted this. The person claimed she didn't eel safe attending such a person (so they say). So that alone is concrete evidence, surely, that I am unfit for work. That cannot be congruent with me being found it for work (assuming they do).


You may be being a little too logical, here. Go and read some Kafka, or perhaps get a copy of "Catch 22" - it might help you with the mindset...


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## WouldBe (Aug 10, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> If I were to contact Maximus and ask, would they reveal what qualifications my assessor possessed? I'm assuming not.


You can check directly with the assessors relevant governing body like the Nursing and Midwifery council.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 10, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> You can check directly with the assessors relevant governing body like the Nursing and Midwifery council.


Damn, I didn't note his name.


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## WouldBe (Aug 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Damn, I didn't note his name.


It will be on the report that you can get a copy of from the DWP.


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 11, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> It will be on the report that you can get a copy of from the DWP.


thanks. will that also list his qualifications?


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## BCBlues (Aug 11, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> thanks. will that also list his qualifications?



No just the name and profession iirc ( I.e. paramedic which my last one was)


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 11, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> No just the name and profession iirc ( I.e. paramedic which my last one was)


That would be a start. At least Id know if he claims to be an optician


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 15, 2019)

Not really ATOS related, but I've got a Work Focused Interview tomorrow morning. Does anyone know what they are allowed to force me to do. I'm really not feeling very confident about handling all this, hopefully the interviewer won't be a c**t, but that's a crapshoot. Can they influence the outcome of WCA decisions? Mine is still pending. Thanks


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## Rivendelboy (Aug 17, 2019)

Got my data request through today, nice and timely  It just confirms that this behavioural marker is because of the mental anxiety/frustration symptons I'd presented. It even says 'no home visit' on there. So Maximus were well aware of this, even when they twice agreed to it. Unfortunately no date is given for this decision so I assume it was when the ESA50 with that info on was processed. 

Had my WFI yesterday. The guy was useless. He spent the whole time extolling the virtues of mindfulness (a little bit) and Universal Credit (a lot!). The JC environment now is weird. It's very intense; the  walls are plastered with _information_ I'd call it propaganda. Even the cubicle where I was sat had a sample 35 hour week jobsearch comprising 8-5.30pm days spent in 2 hour blocks: search online, newspapers, ring people up (because that works), with a small break granted for you to receive your protein pills. Mind blowing. It's so intense an environment as a result; I woulds struggle for sure on UC (and many do as we know). But he was adamant that any problems were either overstated or the result of under staffing and misrepresentation. 

He then went on to imply that benefits shouldn't be used to fund mobile phone packages (before telling me using the bus service app would save me money) by way of bemoaning the amount a single mother customer with lots of kids he works with receives.

Then told me about some course that's just the usual 'character building' bollocks he claimed could make complex mental health diagnoses (it can't,I checked). That was it, see you in 6 months, I hope not. Though, I suspect that won't be an issue :/


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## Sputwang (Aug 27, 2019)

Had my UC WCA today. Seems like they just want an extra bite at the apple while my ESA appeal winds it's way through the system.

Lots of loaded questions from the get go such as 'are you able to fill in this form?'.  My sister brought me so I was asked 'If your sister hadn't been able to bring you in would you still have been able to come?'.  Being as the alternative would be destitution I would have had to make myself come. Everything was twisted to emphasise what I might be capable of. Took copious notes, and had my own copy of the UC50 she had in front of her. This seemed to make her a bit wary.

Hoping for the best but expecting the worst.

Also hard to like people's posts here as it seems like I'm liking the shit things happening.


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## equationgirl (Aug 27, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Had my UC WCA today. Seems like they just want an extra bite at the apple while my ESA appeal winds it's way through the system.
> 
> Lots of loaded questions from the get go such as 'are you able to fill in this form?'.  My sister brought me so I was asked 'If your sister hadn't been able to bring you in would you still have been able to come?'.  Being as the alternative would be destitution I would have had to make myself come. Everything was twisted to emphasise what I might be capable of. Took copious notes, and had my own copy of the UC50 she had in front of her. This seemed to make her a bit wary.
> 
> ...


A lot of the likes are in solidarity, other posters 'like' so posters don't feel on their own, for example, or to say 'that happened to me'. Nobody likes the process or the toll it takes on people.


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## BCBlues (Aug 27, 2019)

It seems like your WCA was a lot of "what ifs" Sputwang, maybe that's part of their new tactics so that they can autotype positive possibilities instead of realities.

I "like" a lot of posts in here more as a way of saying I've read what you put and as equationgirl has stated it's a show of solidarity and understanding. Its great that people,like yourself, share stuff on here as for one its a great place for yourself to get it off your chest and also for others to build up knowledge and confidence. 

All the best in your fight for your entitlements, keep us posted.


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2019)

How are you doing Rivendelboy and Sputwang?


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 1, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> How are you doing Rivendelboy and Sputwang?


Tomorrow will be 4 weeks. They said to me i'll hear between 4-6 weeks so anytime soon I guess. As far as these things can be predicted (personally I favour brian glover's tea leaves). Thanks for asking 

I've got about £1600 saved. Wish I could treat myself really; give a bit back to the economy  But i fear I'll be needing it...


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## equationgirl (Sep 1, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Tomorrow will be 4 weeks. They said to me i'll hear between 4-6 weeks so anytime soon I guess. As far as these things can be predicted (personally I favour brian glover's tea leaves). Thanks for asking
> 
> I've got about £1600 saved. Wish I could treat myself really; give a bit back to the economy  But i fear I'll be needing it...


Glad you are doing OK, looks like any day now for your report


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 2, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Glad you are doing OK, looks like any day now for your report


Thanks, its a case of assume the worst and otherwise its a nice surprise.

But I will feel differentky when the reality lands on my doormat.


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## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Thanks, its a case of assume the worst and otherwise its a nice surprise.
> 
> But I will feel differentky when the reality lands on my doormat.


Of course, the dreaded brown envelope is rarely well received. But this thread will be here for you whoever it happens


----------



## Sputwang (Sep 2, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> How are you doing Rivendelboy and Sputwang?



Got the expected refusal today via a 6 page pdf in my UC journal.  Goes into no detail at all so I'll have to ask for the full report before I can prepare a mandatory reconsideration request.  Interestingly the explanation section at the back is full of stuff like if you can watch TV using a remote control or get cash from a cash point this is counted as ability to work somehow. Weird.


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## equationgirl (Sep 2, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Got the expected refusal today via a 6 page pdf in my UC journal.  Goes into no detail at all so I'll have to ask for the full report before I can prepare a mandatory reconsideration request.  Interestingly the explanation section at the back is full of stuff like if you can watch TV using a remote control or get cash from a cash point this is counted as ability to work somehow. Weird.


Weird indeed. I know they are fond of extrapolating the smallest task into the capability to work but that's a new one. I hope you manage to get the full report soon.


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## BCBlues (Sep 3, 2019)

Yes that a couple of new ones on me too Sputwang. They have often said that if you can sit through a film and concentrate or even watch a half hour soap then you are fit for work, baffling, and now using a tv remote proves you are able to work. I struggle to see how the DWP could win in a court of appeal based on that crap. It wont stop them using it though to elongate the claims/reviews process to put people off from following things through. 
Good luck with the Mandatory, keep your eye on the time limit, I think it's a month.


----------



## Sputwang (Sep 3, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Yes that a couple of new ones on me too Sputwang. They have often said that if you can sit through a film and concentrate or even watch a half hour soap then you are fit for work, baffling, and now using a tv remote proves you are able to work. I struggle to see how the DWP could win in a court of appeal based on that crap. It wont stop them using it though to elongate the claims/reviews process to put people off from following things through.
> Good luck with the Mandatory, keep your eye on the time limit, I think it's a month.



I'll try and remember to cut and paste the explanatory notes tomorrow.  I got the feeling it wasn't specifically for me but just bolted on after the single page that said "Dear Sput, do one you shiftless oik. Love and sloppy kisses.  The tories."


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 4, 2019)

Can I clarify (still haven't heard): if ESA (in my case) is stopped during the payment cycle, the outstanding payment would be made on the next regular payment date?

Presumably, though again just to be clear, they do not pay you up to the end of that cycle. THey pay you only up to the date the decision was made. Correct?

Thanks


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## BCBlues (Sep 4, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Can I clarify (still haven't heard): if ESA (in my case) is stopped during the payment cycle, the outstanding payment would be made on the next regular payment date?
> 
> Presumably, though again just to be clear, they do not pay you up to the end of that cycle. THey pay you only up to the date the decision was made. Correct?
> 
> Thanks



Yes any outstanding entitlement will be paid on your usual day and they will (should) notify you of date that entitlement ceases, which, yes, can be any date within payment cycle.


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 4, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Yes any outstanding entitlement will be paid on your usual day and they will (should) notify you of date that entitlement ceases, which, yes, can be any date within payment cycle.


Thanks. I think then it's safe to assume they won't pay you beyond the date the decision is made. That's certainly what I'm working on. Presumably they woudln't cut it off prior to that without good reason


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## BCBlues (Sep 4, 2019)

Usually they'll notify you of an end date within the next couple of weeks/days after the date on the letter. I say usually because as we know they regularly throw spanners in the works.

Staying on dates, I dont know if its paranoia or sheer coincidence that they select significant dates to fk us about. I have a Health Assessment next week on the anniversary of my wife's passing, another one was for 17th March (I tick Irish on their forms as ethnic status), they stopped my benefits one year on the day before my birthday and my daughter had an assessment on her birthday.

Is it us or are they devious fkrs?


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 4, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Usually they'll notify you of an end date within the next couple of weeks/days after the date on the letter. I say usually because as we know they regularly throw spanners in the works.
> 
> Staying on dates, I dont know if its paranoia or sheer coincidence that they select significant dates to fk us about. I have a Health Assessment next week on the anniversary of my wife's passing, another one was for 17th March (I tick Irish on their forms as ethnic status), they stopped my benefits one year on the day before my birthday and my daughter had an assessment on her birthday.
> 
> Is it us or are they devious fkrs?



It's whatever's convenient for them, not for us. My assessor din't bother to show up on time because the trains were late. While that's entirely credible, had I uused that excuse I'd have either been made to wait for however long until they could fit me in after the fact, or be sent home pending another appointment - potentially affecting my benefits. I've seen a a guy who, haveing got stressed out waiting, threatened to leave. The receptionist took him literally and even the security guard had to argue his case to be seen rather than sent back home. They don't give a crap how they affect people.


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## pogo 10 (Sep 6, 2019)

1 hour and 40 mins till my face to face for esa. Cant wait till its over after weeks of worrying. Thank god have advocaat coming with me.


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 6, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> 1 hour and 40 mins till my face to face for esa. Cant wait till its over after weeks of worrying. Thank god have advocaat coming with me.


Good luck.


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## pogo 10 (Sep 6, 2019)

Thankyou rivendelboy and good luck to everybody going through this.


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## pogo 10 (Sep 6, 2019)

Got seen at dead on the time specified, advocaat was ten mins late so did ten mins by myself. The interviewer just kept firing questions at me. Lasted only half an hr, thank god its over with. She said ill hear in a few weeks.


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## 8115 (Sep 6, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> Got seen at dead on the time specified, advocaat was ten mins late so did ten mins by myself. The interviewer just kept firing questions at me. Lasted only half an hr, thank god its over with. She said ill hear in a few weeks.


Good luck.


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## equationgirl (Sep 6, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> Got seen at dead on the time specified, advocaat was ten mins late so did ten mins by myself. The interviewer just kept firing questions at me. Lasted only half an hr, thank god its over with. She said ill hear in a few weeks.


Well done, try to put it out of your mind for now.


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## BCBlues (Sep 6, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> Got seen at dead on the time specified, advocaat was ten mins late so did ten mins by myself. The interviewer just kept firing questions at me. Lasted only half an hr, thank god its over with. She said ill hear in a few weeks.



Well done, relax now for a while, you've done the hard part.


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## pogo 10 (Sep 8, 2019)

Thanks everybody and good luck everybody.


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## geminisnake (Sep 8, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> Usually they'll notify you of an end date within the next couple of weeks/days after the date on the letter.
> Is it us or are they devious fkrs?



First I knew about them stopping my ESA some yrs ago was a letter from the council telling me my HB was stopped! Then they tried to claim they had phoned me and left a message, I DON'T have an answering machine so that was a lie too.

They are Fkrs cos they always send me a form just before xmas that has to be back by the 2nd week in Jan, they are cnuts.

I hope you all get your claims/awards ok 

I have another pointless appt with my 'back to work' coach this month, at least it's usually only 10 mins or so


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 8, 2019)

geminisnake said:


> First I knew about them stopping my ESA some yrs ago was a letter from the council telling me my HB was stopped! Then they tried to claim they had phoned me and left a message, I DON'T have an answering machine so that was a lie too.
> 
> They are Fkrs cos they always send me a form just before xmas that has to be back by the 2nd week in Jan, they are cnuts.
> 
> ...


Hope yours is better than the bloke I saw


----------



## manji (Sep 10, 2019)

A useful caring thread. I have just applied for PIP. Suffered left hand stroke about 18 months ago. Can now walk unsteadily sort distances, if I very careful I can shower myself , takes ages. Left hand is almost useless. Worst bit if I any form of exercise I get hit by nuero fatigue. Still have to have my groceries delivered but am capable of ordering them on line. 
Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.


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## equationgirl (Sep 10, 2019)

manji said:


> A useful caring thread. I have just applied for PIP. Suffered left hand stroke about 18 months ago. Can now walk unsteadily sort distances, if I very careful I can shower myself , takes ages. Left hand is almost useless. Worst bit if I any form of exercise I get hit by nuero fatigue. Still have to have my groceries delivered but am capable of ordering them on line.
> Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.


It's not a comparative award, you don't get it if you're worse than others. It's based on your circumstances and what you need. 

Nothing wrong with getting shopping delivered, it made my life so much better when I realised I could do this!


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## geminisnake (Sep 12, 2019)

manji said:


> Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.



1) did you get help to fill the form in? Ime that helps
2) if you don't get an award get in touch with CAB/Welfare Rights folk to help you fight it.


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## WouldBe (Sep 13, 2019)

Still not heard anything about my WCA date. Mind you I wrote to then in Feb? asking for a PIP1 form and still haven't received that either.


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## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Still not heard anything about my WCA date. Mind you I wrote to then in Feb? asking for a PIP1 form and still haven't received that either.


Are they still paying you? Can you get the form anywhere else?


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 13, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Still not heard anything about my WCA date. Mind you I wrote to then in Feb? asking for a PIP1 form and still haven't received that either.


It can take months between filling in the ESA50 form and getting a date.

It's been 6 weeks since my wca and i've still heard nothing. They opperate according to their own secret rythms I'm afraid


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 13, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> It can take months between filling in the ESA50 form and getting a date.
> 
> It's been 6 weeks since my wca and i've still heard nothing. They opperate according to their own secret rythms I'm afraid


Yes, but there's months and then there's months. WouldBe knows this, we all do, it's incredibly frustrating having to jump to their tune the whole time. 

All any of us can do is wait and have solidarity with others going through the process. And hope. 

No news is good news, right? Hope you're doing OK otherwise.


----------



## Rivendelboy (Sep 13, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Yes, but there's months and then there's months. WouldBe knows this, we all do, it's incredibly frustrating having to jump to their tune the whole time.
> 
> All any of us can do is wait and have solidarity with others going through the process. And hope.
> 
> No news is good news, right? Hope you're doing OK otherwise.


Of course, the whole thing is ridiculous. You can't plan, including properly budget, and you can't really move forward. It's a bureacratic shitshow.

Yes, no news is indeed good news. It's the only way to look at it really


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 14, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Are they still paying you? Can you get the form anywhere else?


I'm still getting ESA. My PIP stopped months back after the tribunal refused to accept evidence that showed the HCP was lying. 

You can't get PIP forms anywhere else these days. You're supposed to phone the DWP up and they fill in the PIP1 form over the phone but that's not much use when you suffer from memory loss so you have to write to them asking for a PIP1 form and explain why you can't do it over the phone.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 14, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> I'm still getting ESA. My PIP stopped months back after the tribunal refused to accept evidence that showed the HCP was lying.
> 
> You can't get PIP forms anywhere else these days. You're supposed to phone the DWP up and they fill in the PIP1 form over the phone but that's not much use when you suffer from memory loss so you have to write to them asking for a PIP1 form and explain why you can't do it over the phone.


I don't think I would trust them to accurately note what I was telling them anyway. 

They are failing in their obligations under the Equality Act 2010 by not making any reasonable adjustments for your memory problems. Would it help if I drafted a letter for you? I would leave gaps for you to add in your personal info, but if you are able to print stuff out it might make things quicker for you.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 17, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I don't think I would trust them to accurately note what I was telling them anyway.
> 
> They are failing in their obligations under the Equality Act 2010 by not making any reasonable adjustments for your memory problems. Would it help if I drafted a letter for you? I would leave gaps for you to add in your personal info, but if you are able to print stuff out it might make things quicker for you.


Yes please if you would.


----------



## equationgirl (Sep 17, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Yes please if you would.


Cool, if you PM me your email address I'll draft you a letter you can use.


----------



## Sputwang (Sep 17, 2019)

Rivendelboy said:


> Of course, the whole thing is ridiculous. You can't plan, including properly budget, and you can't really move forward. It's a bureacratic shitshow.
> 
> Yes, no news is indeed good news. It's the only way to look at it really



Yeah it was about 4 months before I got the refusal letter.


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 17, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Yeah it was about 4 months before I got the refusal letter.


It took them 4 months between your assessment and the decision?

I don't know why that would surprise me


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## Sputwang (Sep 17, 2019)

Got my ESA tribunal tomorrow pm. Probably little to no sleep tonight as a result. Reading their court submission it's so obvious that the process is angled towards refusing applications. At least tomorrow it'll be people not in the pay of the DWP, which gives me some hope.


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## Rivendelboy (Sep 17, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Got my ESA tribunal tomorrow pm. Probably little to no sleep tonight as a result. Reading their court submission it's so obvious that the process is angled towards refusing applications. At least tomorrow it'll be people not in the pay of the DWP, which gives me some hope.


good luck


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## pogo 10 (Sep 18, 2019)

Good luck sputwang.


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## Libertad (Sep 18, 2019)

Best of luck today Sputwang


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## WouldBe (Sep 18, 2019)

Good luck Sputwang


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## BCBlues (Sep 18, 2019)

All the best for today Sputwang


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## Sputwang (Sep 18, 2019)

Cheers all.  There was a representative for the DWP there but she didn't say anything.  It was adjourned for me to provide them with my medical records, so no result yet.


----------



## WouldBe (Sep 18, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Cheers all.  There was a representative for the DWP there but she didn't say anything.  It was adjourned for me to provide them with my medical records, so no result yet.


The DWP are supposed to contact your GP and any specialist as part of the process but they never do. Useless twats.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Sep 18, 2019)

Sputwang said:


> Got my ESA tribunal tomorrow pm. Probably little to no sleep tonight as a result. Reading their court submission it's so obvious that the process is angled towards refusing applications. At least tomorrow it'll be people not in the pay of the DWP, which gives me some hope.





Sputwang said:


> Cheers all.  There was a representative for the DWP there but she didn't say anything.  It was adjourned for me to provide them with my medical records, so no result yet.


  good luck and all good wishes


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## treelover (Sep 18, 2019)

Well, finally Just had my DLA to PIP transferral letter, so the misery begins, I
think i will now also have to look into my ESA situation as well, I can't really cope now even without it all

I have been left alone for many years, i recently went on my (first for many years) holiday and applied for a EHIC card, I do wonder if there is a connection, the website does say we share with the DWP, etc.

The thing is I last filled a form in over 8 years ago, the goalposts have changed hugely and i will have to negoiate how i filled it it then, etc, with what is expected now. I also have very contrerversial comments by nurses, gp's,etc on my medical notes(i urge people to ask for their notes, they may beshocked by what is on them), which i challenged but couldn't get removed and am not keen to use my medical notes for a tribunal, this is problematic as benefits and work note that initial PIP claims has huge rate of rejections as opposed to appeals, etc..


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## treelover (Sep 18, 2019)

BTw, just wondered if anyone who is a member of Benefits and Work or Fightback they would be happy to share latestform filling guides for PIP and DLA, i just can't afford 20 pounds at the moments, pay four hundred a month back to council for care, used to pass on when i was a member.

can PM if want to be discreet

tx


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## fishfinger (Sep 18, 2019)

There's a guide to filling in the form here:
Help filling in your PIP claim form

And the points system is outlined here:
Personal independence payment (PIP) points scores

Good luck.


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## Sputwang (Sep 18, 2019)

treelover said:


> Well, finally Just had my DLA to PIP transferral letter, so the misery begins, I
> think i will now also have to look into my ESA situation as well, I can't really cope now even without it all
> 
> I have been left alone for many years, i recently went on my (first for many years) holiday and applied for a EHIC card, I do wonder if there is a connection, the website does say we share with the DWP, etc.
> ...



Can't say very much but it is very adversarial now. Take all the help you can get. Welfare rights is a good start, they've helped me out with forms etc a lot. Prepare to be be turned down all the way to the tribunal stage. It's just the way it is atm. Best wishes.


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## equationgirl (Sep 19, 2019)

Best of luck treelover


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## campanula (Sep 19, 2019)

I attempted to get PIP recently. After a long, stressful phone call (I only wanted a form but had to jump through a massive question session), I was told to wait for a form. 2 months later, I got a letter saying my form should have been returned before a date which had already passed. The form which had not been sent.
Couldn't face another endless phone call (I am really useless on the phone, falling into tearful sniffling like an idiot). Have managed to find a  few hours of gardening work to pay bills, otherwise, sweetheart and I have £90 a week (as the bedroom tax whips 25% of HB off). This is a terrible situation to be in because I have also been made to swap from ESA (where I could do permitted work )...to UC, where I am only allowed to earn £15. We are practically penniless (and living in fear. I bloody hate the DWP...


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## Sputwang (Sep 21, 2019)

Just had a quick look here -

Personal Independence Payment (PIP)

And you can ask for the form by post by sending a letter here -

Personal Independence Payment New Claims
Post Handling Site B
Wolverhampton
WV99 1AH

Hope that helps

Best wishes


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## friendofdorothy (Sep 22, 2019)

fishfinger said:


> There's a guide to filling in the form here:
> Help filling in your PIP claim form
> 
> And the points system is outlined here:
> ...


that was a really helpful guide. Thank you.


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## Gaia (Oct 5, 2019)

I've no idea where best to put this, so I'm putting it here. Just been downstairs and found a white envelope in the letterbox. Not realising it was a DWP envelope (because it wasn't brown and because I didn't recognise the address on the back), I opened it. It's from the PIP assessment centre in Stockton-on-Tees (I actually thought it might be from the DPRC centre, as that's also in Stockton). I'm now confused as the address a couple of posts back is Wolverhampton. 

Anyway, it's the usual passive-aggressive bollocks, but I'm shitting myself because, if they demand I attend an assessment, I'm completely fucked, a) because I'm completely bedridden, b) because my autism is such that I literally couldn't speak to anyone from here if I was sitting in front of them, never mind some fucker from the DWP and c) because I know for a fact there is literally no support for someone like me here, none whatsoever, I'm too old and too fucked up. I don't even have a GP because I was banned from the only practice there is here because I kept emailing (I was told that it didn't offer any kind of help or support via email under any circumstances and then I had another breakdown, emailed again and got banned. PALS was absolutely fucking useless). 

If anyone wants to see the letter, let me know.


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## equationgirl (Oct 5, 2019)

Gaia you need to be seen by a GP, based on where you said you live there's a few in your area. There's also GP services that will visit you, although again you would need to check coverage in your area, try Qured . At least you would be able to write things down beforehand and get it clear in your mind what you wanted to say. But you need to see someone.

Is there a deadline on the form? If there is, make a note of it, then start adding information to the form. So today, you might add your name and address. You don't have to fill it out all at once. Answer the questions as if you are on your worst day.

Best of luck with it. (edit: corrected name of mobile GP company)


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## equationgirl (Oct 5, 2019)

Also you will see links to various help guides a couple of posts above mine. Please read them, they will help you.


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## equationgirl (Oct 6, 2019)

Finally Gaia posters get the most benefit from this thread when they interact with the discussion. There's a ton of help available here so please respond to posts.


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## Chilli.s (Oct 6, 2019)

You can do this Gaia (all the forms and shit). Fitting in here must be as difficult and you seem to have managed that. Get a new gp too.


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## treelover (Oct 9, 2019)

urgent advice needed, left it very late to ask for PIP1, end date tomorrow, so it will have to be the telephone call, the PIP1, basis for call, asks do you want to allow evidence from earlier DLA claims, ESA, EMP reports, compiling info now, is this a good or bad thing or just depends on individual, i am cautious even though i had high awards


other issue, would issues with memory, come under one of the questions they ask in the call, about disabilities, i have cognitive issues, brainfog, but it is not dementia,etc?

the benefit and work guides don't help much here


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## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2019)

treelover said:


> urgent advice needed, left it very late to ask for PIP1, end date tomorrow, so it will have to be the telephone call, the PIP1, basis for call, asks do you want to allow evidence from earlier DLA claims, ESA, EMP reports, compiling info now, is this a good or bad thing or just depends on individual, i am cautious even though i had high awards
> 
> 
> other issue, would issues with memory, come under one of the questions they ask in the call, about disabilities, i have cognitive issues, brainfog, but it is not dementia,etc?
> ...


Don't think we've had this question before, so I will do my best to answer. 

I would include it, depending on what it shows. So if you have a large amount of evidence such letters from consultants that are fairly recent, or that document a clear decline in function, ask for it to be included. If the evidence will not help your case, don't include it. 

I would include your cognitive stuff under memory issues, with as much information as possible. 

Best of luck.


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 9, 2019)

Hi treelover I've nothing useful to add - but best wishes and good luck x


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## 8115 (Oct 9, 2019)

Good luck treelover You can do it!

Government forced into U-turn over disability benefits for chronically ill

Thought I'd stick this here as it may be relevant to some people.


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## BCBlues (Oct 9, 2019)

8115 said:


> Good luck treelover You can do it!
> 
> Government forced into U-turn over disability benefits for chronically ill
> 
> Thought I'd stick this here as it may be relevant to some people.



A decision maker involved in my PIP claim stated that "other people manage on strong (opiod) painkillers without a problem". Needless to say I won the appeal.

Didn't see your message until just now treelover so I hope it went well and yes if memory problems are part of your disability then let them know how they affect your day to day life.


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## equationgirl (Oct 9, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> A decision maker involved in my PIP claim stated that "other people manage on strong (opiod) painkillers without a problem". Needless to say I won the appeal.
> 
> Didn't see your message until just now treelover so I hope it went well and yes if memory problems are part of your disability then let them know how they affect your day to day life.


I manage on them, but I wouldn't say without a problem. Depends on the day, dosage, pain, stress, etc...


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## BCBlues (Oct 10, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> I manage on them, but I wouldn't say without a problem. Depends on the day, dosage, pain, stress, etc...



Very much so, as is the individual's tolerance levels, lifestyle and dependence on other meds etc...
It was a very blinkered statement from them disputing the side effects of opioids on myself.


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## pogo 10 (Oct 10, 2019)

Oh, fuck. Got the dreaded brown envelope after reassessment. Its just landed through letter box. I daren't open it.


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## pogo 10 (Oct 10, 2019)

Fuck it here goes.


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## pogo 10 (Oct 10, 2019)

Yesss, its good news. Am still in the support group. Hallelujah.


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## equationgirl (Oct 10, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> Yesss, its good news. Am still in the support group. Hallelujah.


Hurrah! Well done pogo10, really well done


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## friendofdorothy (Oct 10, 2019)

pogo 10 said:


> Yesss, its good news. Am still in the support group. Hallelujah.


I'm so pleased for you, nice to hear good news!
Its ridiculous the amount of stress this process puts ill people through.


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## pogo 10 (Oct 11, 2019)

Thanks everybody for all the support, and good luck to everybody going through this.


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## passenger (Oct 15, 2019)

On a lighter note 

Humpty Dumpty found fit for work by DWP


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## Cloud (Nov 12, 2019)

Fuck those twats who do the exam. Not doctors, just complete cunts. I got zero points. I've been cut off and won tribunals before but this time it all seems completely bent. I guess you know the doctors have had letters asking them to look out for fake disease claims? That seems to include everything I have yet I've had countless procedures which prove  some of my illness. I shouldn't have even turned up, it was false of me to do so and I had to take hardcore drugs to get there because my GP wont script  even a days worth of opiates which i honestly do not want but like i say i shouldn't have gone. I lost the appeal ofc and I'm  finding it impossible to get mental health to help, i've been waiting 6 months for anything from them. My psychiatrist and social worker have just gone! I was passed to drug services, poisoned for a couple of years then got off the handcuffs and by then it seems mental health has totally gone. There's no chance of getting a social worker, i just get this fkn dance around and never get back to see my shrink.
How can i be diagnosed with borderline personality disorder, sarcoidosis, chronic IBS and STILL fail!!!
Those bastards (sorry for rant)
Plus due to health and safety I could never get a job anywhere, i'm drugged up to the eye balls on crap i never asked for.


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## manji (Nov 24, 2019)

Right finally my physical is coming up This week. I’m confused by what questions might be asked. Mentally I have a problems with numbers are they specific with dates. I can shuffle round the kitchen and do the washing up,many dishes broken.
My daughter works and cooks for me but sometimes a pie in the oven is a solution but that can be perilous. Also some days I am capable of doing the dusting but I’m then told to relax a lot.
I been using the savings for my daughters house to take advantage of an expensive nuero physio is that minus points ?
Got so many questions.
I got a quality mobile tariff anyone with any experience and patience . I could talk someone with them at no cost to you


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## manji (Nov 24, 2019)

Original post from September				 A useful caring thread. I have just applied for PIP. Suffered left hand stroke about 18 months ago. Can now walk unsteadily sort distances, if I very careful I can shower myself , takes ages. Left hand is almost useless. Worst bit if I any form of exercise I get hit by nuero fatigue. Still have to have my groceries delivered but am capable of ordering them on line.
Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.​


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## existentialist (Nov 24, 2019)

manji said:


> Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.​


That's what they want you to think.

You shoudn't even be in the position to have to decide "am I entitled?" - we should have a system that is trustworthy enough that you can throw yourself on its mercy, and have them tell you. But you can't trust them, so you have to assume you ARE entitled, and do everything you can to ensure that they agree. Don't be brave or courageous, or put a good gloss on your life. Don't give them a good day and expect them to appreciate that your bad days are worse, because they won't: they'll pretend to be mouthbreathingly stupid, and conveniently "assume" that what you're telling them is typical. Then they'll assume you're exaggerating anyway, and discount it by 50%. Lay it on with a trowel.


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## BCBlues (Nov 24, 2019)

existentialist said:


> That's what they want you to think.
> 
> You shoudn't even be in the position to have to decide "am I entitled?" - we should have a system that is trustworthy enough that you can throw yourself on its mercy, and have them tell you. But you can't trust them, so you have to assume you ARE entitled, and do everything you can to ensure that they agree. Don't be brave or courageous, or put a good gloss on your life. Don't give them a good day and expect them to appreciate that your bad days are worse, because they won't: they'll pretend to be mouthbreathingly stupid, and conveniently "assume" that what you're telling them is typical. Then they'll assume you're exaggerating anyway, and discount it by 50%. Lay it on with a trowel.



Absolutely agree with the above.  Dont say yes I might be able to, sometimes, or it varies. Let them know what your worst days are like. However you feel on the day just describe that horrible sickly feeling you get on your bad days. It's not cheating, its letting them know how your aches and pains get to you. All the best and keep us informed how it all goes.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 24, 2019)

manji said:


> Original post from September				 A useful caring thread. I have just applied for PIP. Suffered left hand stroke about 18 months ago. Can now walk unsteadily sort distances, if I very careful I can shower myself , takes ages. Left hand is almost useless. Worst bit if I any form of exercise I get hit by nuero fatigue. Still have to have my groceries delivered but am capable of ordering them on line.
> Two things come to mind compared to some of the awful cases on here am I really entitled to PIp and reading some of the reasons for people not receiving benefit it feels like I wouldn’t stand a chance of getting accepted anyway.​


  Hi manji,  sorry to hear about your stroke. I'm sorry the system makes ill people like you jump through such hoops. 

Have someone go with you - to help you get there and for moral support. (it used to be that simply going on your own counted against you)  Be aware that staff may be assessing you from the moment you arrive, as you arrive, at reception as you are waiting. I think they make people wait on purpose.

They are filling in a a sort of general form that generates a 'report'. Don't expect that they know anything about you or your condition. They are not doctors but usually a 'healthcare' professional' which could mean you are seen by someone like nurse, paramedic or physio. So spell out out what the symptoms of your condition are, even if it seems obvious to you. Be detailed be graphic.  Don't be afraid to repeat things.

Tell them what its like on your very worst days. Yes maybe sometimes you can do this or that, but tell them about the bad days when you struggle or can't do this or that. Be sure to stress that even where you can do something - that you can't do it *repeatedly, regularly and reliably*. That is supposed to be the standard to which they assess you.  

Tell them what you need help and support with - even if that help is just having someone there to reassure, prompt or remind you - that counts as needing help. It's not easy to admit when you have to rely on others - but do tell them. If you have to rely on friends on family to do anything for you at all - imagine how could you do those things with out them. In most situations most of us like to look on the bright side and say _'yes I can do that, but I may need a little help_'. *Don't* do this in your assessment. Be pesamistic, them the worst it is for you, (sorry I know its depressing to do this and not good for your self esteem).

eg if they ask_ can you walk 200 meters unaided?_ even if you can or can sometimes - can you do that all on your own or do you need someone to steady you or to accompany you in case you fall? then the answer is _NO I can't do it unaided_. Can only do it if you rest half way? then the answer is _NO_. Can do it but then are too fatigued to do anything else? Then say so. 

If they ask any question where your answer is _yes I can do that_ - ask yourself can you do it *repeatedly, regularly and reliably* and if not tell them why. eg _yes I can that but it causes accidents / causes me a lot of pain / utterly exhausts me and I'll need to rest_.

Bizarrely they are not interested in shopping - but they are interested in daily activities like personal care, dressing, washing, communication etc. And how you can travel and how you can socialise. 

Take copies of all your appointment/presciption/ any medical letters and make them take copies of them to go along with your report. Expect them to ask you questions that don't seem revelant to your condition.

I wish you all the best.


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## BCBlues (Nov 24, 2019)

(sorry I know its depressing to do this and not good for your self esteem)

All the above is bang on but this is important. You can walk away from their "assessments" feeling awful as it kicks in how ill you really are. Try and get someone to be around after the interview to help you lift yourself up. If there's no one around come on here and chat, theres some great people on here.


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## equationgirl (Nov 25, 2019)

Thinking of you manji and wishing you all the best. 

Nothing to add really, be aware that they will observe you in the waiting room. Also, there may be innocent sounding chit chat on your way into the room 'how did you get here today?', that sort of thing. Again, don't travel alone, take someone with you.

Think about how you are on your worst day, not your best day. You might be able to walk to he shops on your good days, for example, but then need to spend two days in bed recovering. 

Do not trust the assessor, not matter how pleasant they seem.

If you're up to I, plan to do something nice after the assessment. Very best of luck to you.


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## manji (Nov 25, 2019)

Thank for all the responses. Luckily my daughter is going. Does she into interview ? Does she get questions asked if she is on her own in reception.
One important thing I forgot to mention is I have been suffering from since the stroke is what I assumed is IBS I eventually had a colonoscopy on Wednesday it took for longer than I expected. I’m not expecting and results from it for a month. I’m not incontinent but in extreme pain .


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## manji (Nov 25, 2019)

If this doesn’t sum things up I went to get the letter to phone them up about parking ab the PIP is the following Friday 6th


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## BCBlues (Nov 25, 2019)

manji said:


> Thank for all the responses. Luckily my daughter is going. Does she into interview ? Does she get questions asked if she is on her own in reception.
> One important thing I forgot to mention is I have been suffering from since the stroke is what I assumed is IBS I eventually had a colonoscopy on Wednesday it took for longer than I expected. I’m not expecting and results from it for a month. I’m not incontinent but in extreme pain .



Your daughter can and should go into the interview with you. They should not ask her questions direct (just name/relationship maybe) and if she/you wish she can take notes. She can help you answer with prompts etc.
They will ask you how you got to the interview, how you got in and out of the car, how far you walked from where you parked. It will sound like idle chat but any info obtained will be used as part of the assessment and no doubt used against you by the DWPwhere possible.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 25, 2019)

manji said:


> Thank for all the responses. Luckily my daughter is going. Does she into interview ? Does she get questions asked if she is on her own in reception.
> One important thing I forgot to mention is I have been suffering from since the stroke is what I assumed is IBS I eventually had a colonoscopy on Wednesday it took for longer than I expected. I’m not expecting and results from it for a month. I’m not incontinent but in extreme pain .


It's great that you have your daughter to support you, and yes, take her in with you if you both don't mind. She can speak on your behalf or add to your answers, ask things you forget to ask or take notes.  Though you should be aware this may be upsetting for her too, you are probably used to taking care of her and now she has to take care of you.  Does she know the full extent of your illness / symptoms?  Warn her that they may be trying to trick you and that every thing either of you say should be about whether you can do things repeatedly, regularly and reliably. 

Be sure to tell them about the IBS symptoms, pain and the colonoscopy - take all the appointment letters with you. You can't assume what it is until you have the results and neither should the dwp.  My partner has a gut condition, which regularly means she gets caught short but they asked questions about wearing incon pads (which she doesn't) - which we both found embarrassing and odd. 

Wishing you all the best - fingers crossed for you.


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## manji (Nov 26, 2019)

What about money questions ? My Father died about a year before the stroke leaving me with a reasonable inheritance. Not being materialistic I invested a good chunk away for when my daughter married. She was not aware of this. In my naivety I convinced myself I would get better so took money out of that so we would be comfortable. It never crossed my mind to apply for benefit until recently.
I had convinced myself I could go back to work. Is that going to be an issue ?


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## BCBlues (Nov 27, 2019)

manji said:


> What about money questions ? My Father died about a year before the stroke leaving me with a reasonable inheritance. Not being materialistic I invested a good chunk away for when my daughter married. She was not aware of this. In my naivety I convinced myself I would get better so took money out of that so we would be comfortable. It never crossed my mind to apply for benefit until recently.
> I had convinced myself I could go back to work. Is that going to be an issue ?



The general rule for benefits is that if you have over £16k capital then it's a no no. They will take anything into account over £6k ( £1 p/w notional income for every £2.50).
It gets a bit complex when you say you needed to spend and they say no you didnt, you're just taking advantage of the benefits system.


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## iona (Nov 27, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> The general rule for benefits is that if you have over £16k capital then it's a no no. They will take anything into account over £6k ( £1 p/w notional income for every £2.50).
> It gets a bit complex when you say you needed to spend and they say no you didnt, you're just taking advantage of the benefits system.


PIP isn't dependent on your employment status or income/savings.


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## manji (Nov 27, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> The general rule for benefits is that if you have over £16k capital then it's a no no. They will take anything into account over £6k ( £1 p/w notional income for every £2.50).
> It gets a bit complex when you say you needed to spend and they say no you didnt, you're just taking advantage of the benefits system.


Appreciate your help. But I’ve been told income savings aren’t taken into account. Don’t know if it’s changed.


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## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2019)

manji said:


> Appreciate your help. But I’ve been told income savings aren’t taken into account. Don’t know if it’s changed.


See iona's post. It depends what benefit you're applying for.


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## WouldBe (Dec 7, 2019)

Finally has my ESA assessment. It's only taken 6 months from filling in the form. 

It only lasted 20 mins. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. She also asked me several questions that only relate to PIP and said she couldn't understand why I hadn't been awarded it last time.


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## equationgirl (Dec 7, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Finally has my ESA assessment. It's only taken 6 months from filling in the form.
> 
> It only lasted 20 mins. Not sure if that's a good or bad thing. She also asked me several questions that only relate to PIP and said she couldn't understand why I hadn't been awarded it last time.


Promising, hope you get your award. I also hope you are doing ok now it's over.


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## WouldBe (Dec 7, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> Promising, hope you get your award. I also hope you are doing ok now it's over.


Still not had a PIP1 form yet though.


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## equationgirl (Dec 8, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Still not had a PIP1 form yet though.


Oh ffs


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 8, 2019)

Anyone know how long it takes to appeal - I wrote a letter to DWP saying we wanted copies orf the report and the decision, and wanted to appeal (for my partner) but have heard nothing. 

Isn't there a form to fill in? I'm begining to wonder what more I should do, I couldn't get through to them on the phone.


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## iona (Dec 8, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Anyone know how long it takes to appeal - I wrote a letter to DWP saying we wanted copies orf the report and the decision, and wanted to appeal (for my partner) but have heard nothing.
> 
> Isn't there a form to fill in? I'm begining to wonder what more I should do, I couldn't get through to them on the phone.



I'd keep trying to get through on the phone to confirm they received it. How long ago did you write, and did you send it recorded / keep proof of postage?

Which benefit was it for? Idk about UC but for ESA/PIP you can request a mandatory reconsideration (the first stage of appeal) either by phone or letter, no need to fill in a form. Personally I phone just to get the request in within the time limit, and tell them I will follow up with a letter setting out my reasons for requesting MR rather than discuss via phone. If you've asked for a copy of the decision/hcp's report they should give you more time to get the MR request in once you've received that.

Afaik there's no limit to how long they can take to carry out a mandatory reconsideration 

E2a did your partner give permission for you to communicate with DWP on their behalf, either in/enclosed with your letter or previously that they would have on record?


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 8, 2019)

iona said:


> I'd keep trying to get through on the phone to confirm they received it. How long ago did you write, and did you send it recorded / keep proof of postage?
> 
> Which benefit was it for? Idk about UC but for ESA/PIP you can request a mandatory reconsideration (the first stage of appeal) either by phone or letter, no need to fill in a form. Personally I phone just to get the request in within the time limit, and tell them I will follow up with a letter setting out my reasons for requesting MR rather than discuss via phone. If you've asked for a copy of the decision/hcp's report they should give you more time to get the MR request in once you've received that.
> 
> ...


Thanks. Didn't have proof of postage no. It was for ESA. I wrote the letter and we both signed, I do all her correspondence /phoning, so she give permission for me to do this again in the letter.

She had to attend one appointment at a JC - they only said she would have to attend again in 3 months. Is this usual?


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## iona (Dec 8, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks. Didn't have proof of postage no. It was for ESA. I wrote the letter and we both signed, I do all her correspondence /phoning, so she give permission for me to do this again in the letter.
> 
> She had to attend one appointment at a JC - they only said she would have to attend again in 3 months. Is this usual?


I'd definitely keep trying to phone, just to be certain they got the letter (and so you can resend asap if not). Always get proof of postage!

No idea about jobcentre appointments, sorry. I've mostly managed to avoid all that somehow.


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## equationgirl (Dec 8, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Thanks. Didn't have proof of postage no. It was for ESA. I wrote the letter and we both signed, I do all her correspondence /phoning, so she give permission for me to do this again in the letter.
> 
> She had to attend one appointment at a JC - they only said she would have to attend again in 3 months. Is this usual?


It seems to be variable based on the experiences on this thread.  I'm not sure there is a usual.


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## friendofdorothy (Dec 8, 2019)

iona said:


> I'd definitely keep trying to phone, just to be certain they got the letter (and so you can resend asap if not). Always get proof of postage!
> 
> No idea about jobcentre appointments, sorry. I've mostly managed to avoid all that somehow.





equationgirl said:


> It seems to be variable based on the experiences on this thread.  I'm not sure there is a usual.


thank you both! Job centre didn't bother her to do too much - just advised to look at at website and think about things. I was worried they would hassle her more and make her more ill.


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## equationgirl (Dec 9, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> thank you both! Job centre didn't bother her to do too much - just advised to look at at website and think about things. I was worried they would hassle her more and make her more ill.


I'm glad to hear they're being kind to her. Love to you both X


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## manji (Dec 10, 2019)

I went to PIP assessment. The woman that interviewed me really knew her Stroke Knowledge so had obviously been specially been chosen. The one that threw me was she did ask me me financial situation. I thought that wasn’t taken into account. 6 week wait official


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## equationgirl (Dec 11, 2019)

manji said:


> I went to PIP assessment. The woman that interviewed me really knew her Stroke Knowledge so had obviously been specially been chosen. The one that threw me was she did ask me me financial situation. I thought that wasn’t taken into account. 6 week wait official


Glad it went ok.


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## felixthecat (Dec 12, 2019)

Right. The daughter has a PIP assessment next Thursday and it's sent anxiety into overdrive.

I'm going to trawl through this thread but would be glad of a précis of what to expect. It's 30 miles away which is a ball ache but I will take her and go in with her.


----------



## BCBlues (Dec 12, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Right. The daughter has a PIP assessment next Thursday and it's sent anxiety into overdrive.
> 
> I'm going to trawl through this thread but would be glad of a précis of what to expect. It's 30 miles away which is a ball ache but I will take her and go in with her.



In a nutshell what's the basis of daughters PIP claim. It will help us a bit to help you prepare.


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## equationgirl (Dec 12, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Right. The daughter has a PIP assessment next Thursday and it's sent anxiety into overdrive.
> 
> I'm going to trawl through this thread but would be glad of a précis of what to expect. It's 30 miles away which is a ball ache but I will take her and go in with her.


If you just look at the last few pages that should give you enough to start with, it is a whopper of a thread.

Don't let her go in alone, you could take notes. Some assessors take a lone claimant as a sign they can cope.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 16, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Right. The daughter has a PIP assessment next Thursday and it's sent anxiety into overdrive.
> 
> I'm going to trawl through this thread but would be glad of a précis of what to expect. It's 30 miles away which is a ball ache but I will take her and go in with her.


I’ve found the initial PIP assessment seemed really straightforward for two relatives. The assessors seemed friendly, even critical of the DWP. But in both cases they scored zero points. We then had to go through mandatory reconsideration in both cases (unsuccessful) and then finally appeals (both successful). I do hope you don’t have to go through all this, but it’s deliberate policy to reduce the number of claimants. If you do lose you must persevere. More than 70% of appeals are successful, but it can take a long time, between 9 months and a year for my relatives. That’s mainly just a lot of waiting around, but lack of money can be devastating. I hope it goes ok.


----------



## iona (Dec 16, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Right. The daughter has a PIP assessment next Thursday and it's sent anxiety into overdrive.
> 
> I'm going to trawl through this thread but would be glad of a précis of what to expect. It's 30 miles away which is a ball ache but I will take her and go in with her.



Assume the assessment has started as soon as you arrive. Stuff like walking into the building, seeming relaxed in the waiting area or appearing well kempt can be taken as evidence of being able to walk x distance / sit for x time / not suffer from anxiety / not have difficulty washing and dressing due to e.g. depression or pain. Asking "did you get here ok?" as you head into the assessment room isn't friendly chat; they will actually take a polite "fine, thanks" as meaning planning and making journeys isn't an issue.

You are allowed to add to what your daughter says, and to take notes.

Think about questions before answering (if you have a copy of her PIP form it could be helpful for one/both of you to read through it, as a reminder of what to mention). Being able to do something only counts if you can do it _safely, to an acceptable standard, repeatedly, and in a reasonable time_. Answer questions with that in mind:
"Can you do x?"
"Yes, sometimes"
"No, not every day / without pain / unless I rest after / etc."
Mention any prompting/supervision needed to do something. It's really easy to put a brave face on because that's what we usually do day to day, but don't. Let them know what a bad day looks like, if it varies. That can be fucking depressing so maybe plan some sort of little treat or self care type thing for after, if that helps.

Not trying to scare or worry you! Just give them as much info as possible and don't just assume they're definitely 100% on your side. Good luck


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## felixthecat (Dec 17, 2019)

BCBlues said:


> In a nutshell what's the basis of daughters PIP claim. It will help us a bit to help you prepare.


Sorry missed this.
Mental health. Depression, anxiety, OCD and PTSD are the official diagnoses.


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## felixthecat (Dec 17, 2019)

And can I say she's already in a state about it. By Thursday she'll be a complete mess. 

And who has to pick up the pieces? Yep me. With no help from anyone.

Merry fucking Christmas DWP


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## BCBlues (Dec 17, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Sorry missed this.
> Mental health. Depression, anxiety, OCD and PTSD are the official diagnoses.



I feel for you because the small time the assessor will spend with you and your daughter will be nowhere near enough to understand the depth of such problems. All I can do is repeat what others say and get your daughter to focus on her worst days. This will be depressing for both of you. Sometimes theres suicide related questions thrown in. They should ask if your daughter wants you to leave the room but they dont always.

All the best in there, its gonna be tough but you'll both feel better when its out the way. Keep us informed as well please, it all helps when others have to go through this and we have info on what to expect.


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## existentialist (Dec 17, 2019)

More than anything, my dismay at the Tories remaining in power is driven by the notion that there is nothing which can happen now to stop the DWP continuing to coldly, cynically, and callously wreck thousands of lives for another five years...


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## felixthecat (Dec 17, 2019)

They've got her complete medical record for the past 5 years documenting suicidal ideation and actual self harm. We're prepared for that. She's going to be mess when we get there and I'm worried she'll have a panic attack while we're there. That might consist of her running, which will be a fucking nightmare.


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## BCBlues (Dec 17, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> They've got her complete medical record for the past 5 years documenting suicidal ideation and actual self harm. We're prepared for that. She's going to be mess when we get there and I'm worried she'll have a panic attack while we're there. That might consist of her running, which will be a fucking nightmare.



It's really tough, and so unnecessary, and like what existentialist is saying the tories will bloody love another five years of it.


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## existentialist (Dec 17, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> They've got her complete medical record for the past 5 years documenting suicidal ideation and actual self harm. We're prepared for that. She's going to be mess when we get there and I'm worried she'll have a panic attack while we're there. That might consist of her running, which will be a fucking nightmare.


Start off the meeting by saying something along the lines of "If you traumatise her, and she runs, or if she comes to any harm as a result of this meeting, I will be holding YOU responsible. What was your name again?"

And warn her if she's being insensitive/asking triggery questions, etc. "If you go down this line of enquiry, are you qualified/competent to pick up the pieces if you succeed in destabilising her?", etc.

Of course, you might get a decent one - there have been reports of assessors, particularly for mental health assessments, actually being quite decent and recognising their limits. Fingers crossed you get one...


----------



## felixthecat (Dec 17, 2019)

That's really helpful existentialist , thank you.

It's being help at a private  physio practice. I want to know the qualifications of the person assessing her, in particular if they have mental health experience /training. I will also let them know that I AM a physio and I DO have mental health training (prerequisite when you work for the military as I do)

And yes I will be taking notes.


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## BCBlues (Dec 17, 2019)

You're gonna be allright felixthecat and daughter. You sound well prepared.


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## equationgirl (Dec 18, 2019)

Thinking of you both felixthecat remember she will be assessed pretty much as soon as she steps in the place. I don't have anything to add to the advice already received.


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## WouldBe (Dec 18, 2019)

Had the brown envelope this morning. ESA support group for another 2 years.


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## BCBlues (Dec 18, 2019)

WouldBe said:


> Had the brown envelope this morning. ESA support group for another 2 years.



Nice one


----------



## Calamity1971 (Dec 18, 2019)

Have put this link on hostile environment for sick and disabled, thought it needs putting here as well. 
Didn't take the fuckers long .
Tories use first day back to attack the disabled


----------



## friendofdorothy (Dec 18, 2019)

felixthecat said:


> Sorry missed this.
> Mental health. Depression, anxiety, OCD and PTSD are the official diagnoses.


 Be prepared that they may ask about suicide. They can do this so be prepared. It is weird to be asked such question in what is not a supportive / clinical setting and not easy to answer even when prepared. 



felixthecat said:


> And can I say she's already in a state about it. By Thursday she'll be a complete mess.
> 
> And who has to pick up the pieces? Yep me. With no help from anyone.
> 
> Merry fucking Christmas DWP


 I'm so sorry you have to go though this, it really is shit.  I wish you all the best x


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## felixthecat (Dec 19, 2019)

Well its done. Assessor did a lot of digging to get quantitative answers, led the daughter frequently in providing answers that actually support her claim. I saw the report she had written and I was satisfied with what I saw

But we will see - I'm certainly not counting chickens yet.

I didn't know that her report is then audited by another HP before going to the dwp for consideration, and that they can make changes to it. Without having seen the claimant!! That's outrageous


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## existentialist (Dec 19, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Be prepared that they may ask about suicide. They can do this so be prepared. It is weird to be asked such question in what is not a supportive / clinical setting and not easy to answer even when prepared.
> 
> I'm so sorry you have to go though this, it really is shit.  I wish you all the best x


The really shit thing about non-specialists asking the "suicide question" is that it's often a source of great shame to people to admit to feeling suicidal. So they don't. Which means the assessor gets to tick the box that says "not suicidal", which is bullshit.

And history is replete with examples of the crass insensitivity deployed towards people who answered the question with "yes". Cunts.


----------



## geminisnake (Dec 19, 2019)

Fingers crossed for your girl Felix, the waiting is shite but try not to let it interfere with your festivities. They do this shit deliberately. Bastids nearly always sned me a form in December


----------



## Dawn Crescendo (Dec 20, 2019)

Going back to 2012 .. I was 60 years of age type 2 diabetic, completely deaf on the right hand side with severe tinitus, rapidly losing my eyesight because of cataracts. I was found fit for for work by an alleged medical professional who never even saw me. I appealed and in December 2013 my appeal was heard by a Judge and doctor (actually a retired anesthetist) .. who looked to be the best part of 100 years old. He asked me to read a sign above one of the court room doors .. I said that I could only see that it was blue. I lost the appeal .. reading through it I lost it basically because he thought that I was highly intelligent.


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## Dawn Crescendo (Dec 20, 2019)

The impression I got throughout whilst dealing with the DWP is that they wanted me to kill myself. I never saw any hint of compassion. What was also very noticiable was that once I reached retirement age the attitude of the people a the local job centre changed from entirely negative and unhelpful to very helpful (the same individuals).


----------



## gosub (Dec 28, 2019)

Dawn Crescendo said:


> The impression I got throughout whilst dealing with the DWP is that they wanted me to kill myself. I never saw any hint of compassion. What was also very noticiable was that once I reached retirement age the attitude of the people a the local job centre changed from entirely negative and unhelpful to very helpful (the same individuals).



Actual staff I have found helpful... Ministers however, wrote a humdozy of a reply to one only for her to resign over Brexit before I could send it


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## Dawn Crescendo (Jan 1, 2020)

gosub said:


> Actual staff I have found helpful... Ministers however, wrote a humdozy of a reply to one only for her to resign over Brexit before I could send it


I did get called into the local Job Centre in 2009 where I was told that it was obvious that my condition would never improve and that I might get called in once before I was due to retire (in 2014)and the individual I saw was very helpful. I got the infamous ATOS letter in 2012 and having filled the form in I heard nothing more for four months when I received a copy of the report in which the "medical professional" in spite of not seeing me and noting that it was unlikely that I would be fit to work in the long term found me fit for work. I found the attitude of the staff at the same job centre entirely different and hostile. Ultimately they managed to do me out of about four weeks money before I became eligible for the state pension.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jan 2, 2020)

Dawn Crescendo said:


> I did get called into the local Job Centre in 2009 where I was told that it was obvious that my condition would never improve and that I might get called in once before I was due to retire (in 2014)and the individual I saw was very helpful. I got the infamous ATOS letter in 2012 and having filled the form in I heard nothing more for four months when I received a copy of the report in which the "medical professional" in spite of not seeing me and noting that it was unlikely that I would be fit to work in the long term found me fit for work. I found the attitude of the staff at the same job centre entirely different and hostile. Ultimately they managed to do me out of about four weeks money before I became eligible for the state pension.


that is depressing - what is the matter with these people - do they get a bonus for stopping peoples money?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 2, 2020)

friendofdorothy said:


> that is depressing - what is the matter with these people - do they get a bonus for stopping peoples money?



yes


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## felixthecat (Jan 29, 2020)

Got the PIP decision yesterday - will continue as is for another 2 years.

Thank fuck for that


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## equationgirl (Jan 31, 2020)

felixthecat said:


> Got the PIP decision yesterday - will continue as is for another 2 years.
> 
> Thank fuck for that


That's great news Felix


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## treelover (Feb 4, 2020)

Have you been affected by changes to disability welfare payments?
					

We’d like you to help us document how problems with welfare benefits have affected people with disabilities. Share your experiences




					www.theguardian.com


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## equationgirl (Feb 5, 2020)

treelover said:


> Have you been affected by changes to disability welfare payments?
> 
> 
> We’d like you to help us document how problems with welfare benefits have affected people with disabilities. Share your experiences
> ...


You know the rule about content free posts? Could you please edit to add a sentence about why you think people should give their info to the guardian?


----------



## BCBlues (Mar 13, 2020)

I'm in the middle of a PIP "review", they literally make you do a new claim, as if long term problems like asthma and arthritis just pop in to see you later on in life.
Anyway, I was gonna ask them for more time as there was a 9 day time lapse from when I phoned to when I received the a/f. So, lo and behold I received a letter from them saying that my form was due in but they were giving me an extra fortnight (without me asking, that's a first for me).
Most likely as a result of the creeping chaos that cornovirus is bringing. Which makes me think, over the next few months, how on earth are they going to carry on their pointless face to face assessments. How are we as claimants supposed to gather evidence, attend things like pain management clinics where vital consultation letters are produced.
It's going to cause a lot more stress and anxiety so they need to increase the "how does it affect you" section there.

Sorry for rambling, I've been self isolating for a week since a flu jab left me groggy and paranoid. Ive been staring at the PIP form all week thinking what's the point, I'm picking up now though and remembered someone on here who's Daughter in Law was due a home visit and wondered how that was going but couldn't find/remember who. Would be nice to get an update and from all the others in here who may be affected in the coming months.


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## xsunnysuex (Mar 13, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> I'm in the middle of a PIP "review", they literally make you do a new claim, as if long term problems like asthma and arthritis just pop in to see you later on in life.
> Anyway, I was gonna ask them for more time as there was a 9 day time lapse from when I phoned to when I received the a/f. So, lo and behold I received a letter from them saying that my form was due in but they were giving me an extra fortnight (without me asking, that's a first for me).
> Most likely as a result of the creeping chaos that cornovirus is bringing. Which makes me think, over the next few months, how on earth are they going to carry on their pointless face to face assessments. How are we as claimants supposed to gather evidence, attend things like pain management clinics where vital consultation letters are produced.
> It's going to cause a lot more stress and anxiety so they need to increase the "how does it affect you" section there.
> ...


I found this.








						Coronavirus support for employees, benefit claimants and businesses
					

A range of extra support and measures will be in place to help workers, benefit claimants and businesses affected by coronavirus.




					www.gov.uk


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## brogdale (Mar 13, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> I'm in the middle of a PIP "review", they literally make you do a new claim, as if long term problems like asthma and arthritis just pop in to see you later on in life.
> Anyway, I was gonna ask them for more time as there was a 9 day time lapse from when I phoned to when I received the a/f. So, lo and behold I received a letter from them saying that my form was due in but they were giving me an extra fortnight (without me asking, that's a first for me).
> Most likely as a result of the creeping chaos that cornovirus is bringing. Which makes me think, over the next few months, how on earth are they going to carry on their pointless face to face assessments. How are we as claimants supposed to gather evidence, attend things like pain management clinics where vital consultation letters are produced.
> It's going to cause a lot more stress and anxiety so they need to increase the "how does it affect you" section there.
> ...


Was my DiL BCBlues 
Sorry to hear about your last week; completely get what you feel looking at the form.
Anyway, to update...yes, her (unrequested) home assessment did go ahead yesterday and (as you know) we won't be told of the outcome for some weeks...whilst she's supposed to live on air?
 My partner was able to take notes during the assessment and we 'unofficially' recorded the whole thing in order to supplement the notes taken. We made sure that the ATOS goon acknowledged that notes were being made.
Interestingly, before the assessment day, DiL's carer did receive a number of texts & calls confirming the assessment but also, apparently attempting some basic 'duty of care' to their employee checks, asking about the health situation in the household, claimant's travel history and any Covid-19 symptoms etc.
Will post further when we hear.
Hope you feel better soon.


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## BCBlues (Mar 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Was my DiL BCBlues
> Sorry to hear about your last week; completely get what you feel looking at the form.
> Anyway, to update...yes, her (unrequested) home assessment did go ahead yesterday and (as you know) we won't be told of the outcome for some weeks...whilst she's supposed to live on air?
> My partner was able to take notes during the assessment and we 'unofficially' recorded the whole thing in order to supplement the notes taken. We made sure that the ATOS goon acknowledged that notes were being made.
> ...



Thank you.
I'm glad that's out the way for you. I hope the anxiety levels can ease a bit now for you all even tho like you say it will be some time before you hear. Keep us posted.


----------



## BCBlues (Apr 16, 2020)

A quick update on my PIP claim. I've had a letter from Capita today saying that due to the current Coronavirus outbreak, instead of a face to face assessment they will phone me. Should be interesting.
At least there wont be no snide "oh he walked to the interview room ok" or from a friends last face to face, " she brushed her hair out of her face so she should be able to dress herself ok" ( she was awarded full rate on both elements at MR stage).
On the other hand they have no doubt got a scripted list of mind numbingly stupid questions to ask. We'll see. I'll keep you informed.

Edit to add that they have gave me a date and time.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> A quick update on my PIP claim. I've had a letter from Capita today saying that due to the current Coronavirus outbreak, instead of a face to face assessment they will phone me. Should be interesting.
> At least there wont be no snide "oh he walked to the interview room ok" or from a friends last face to face, " she brushed her hair out of her face so she should be able to dress herself ok" ( she was awarded full rate on both elements at MR stage).
> On the other hand they have no doubt got a scripted list of mind numbingly stupid questions to ask. We'll see. I'll keep you informed.
> 
> Edit to add that they have gave me a date and time.


I think that's progress of sorts. Will you record the conversation if possible?

It will be slightly humourous if they start off with 'and how was your journey here today?'...


----------



## chainsawjob (Apr 16, 2020)

Good luck BCBlues


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## BCBlues (Apr 16, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> I think that's progress of sorts. Will you record the conversation if possible?
> 
> It will be slightly humourous if they start off with 'and how was your journey here today?'...



I did just lol at that.
Yeah I'll deffo have it on loudspeaker and record it.


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## BCBlues (Apr 16, 2020)

chainsawjob said:


> Good luck BCBlues



Thanking You.


----------



## equationgirl (Apr 16, 2020)

No matter what, I hope it's not too stressful for you and wish you the very best of luck BCBlues .


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## BCBlues (Apr 16, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> No matter what, I hope it's not too stressful for you and wish you the very best of luck BCBlues .



Many thanks. I cant help but think its just a massive waste of time but I will go through the motions. I have no faith in the whole process until appeal stage when decisions are made with much more impartiality.


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## brogdale (Apr 29, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> Thank you.
> I'm glad that's out the way for you. I hope the anxiety levels can ease a bit now for you all even tho like you say it will be some time before you hear. Keep us posted.


Heard from DiL this evening that she's been re-awarded what she was on for the last 2 years. There's been a bit of shuffling of points (a couple down & a couple up...presumably for the assessor's benefit to justify the assessment process) but the aggregate award is similar.

Big thanks to all on here that advised and reassured when I was getting concerned and fraught about the process.

My take away from the whole thing is that the preparation of paperwork evidence appeared to pay off and my partner certainly learnt from the previous tribunal appeal and threw back their own words against them this time.

Best wishes to all still going through this.


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## BCBlues (Apr 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Heard from DiL this evening that she's been re-awarded what she was on for the last 2 years. There's been a bit of shuffling of points (a couple down & a couple up...presumably for the assessor's benefit to justify the assessment process) but the aggregate award is similar.
> 
> Big thanks to all on here that advised and reassured when I was getting concerned and fraught about the process.
> 
> ...



Great news. Well done to you all for battling through that difficult process.


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## equationgirl (Apr 29, 2020)

Brilliant news brogdale on both counts.

BCBlues have you had yours yet or do you still have a while to go?


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## BCBlues (Apr 30, 2020)

equationgirl said:


> Brilliant news brogdale on both counts.
> 
> BCBlues have you had yours yet or do you still have a while to go?



Its Friday


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## chainsawjob (Apr 30, 2020)

Good to hear brogdale, well done all involved.

Good luck for Friday BCBlues


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## equationgirl (Apr 30, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> Its Friday


Good luck for Friday, I hope it's not too stressful.


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## equationgirl (May 1, 2020)

I'm thinking of you BCBlues and hope it goes ok. E kind to yourself afterwards.


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## treelover (May 1, 2020)

Just had PIP decision, after 3 months, I got 10 points, and standard care/mobility, so lost a lot, 250 month, care mostly on aids, its interesting that so many people just miss enhanced(targets/), I looked at the decision and in one part he has downright lied,  I couldn’t even remember what school I went to, took ages to answer questions, (I think now I was having diabetic hypo) he claims I had no cognitive impairement. He made a point of saying I could grip a walking stick, but it was for five seconds, and then he said you obviously up not to medical/muscualar examination. He made great great play of this, looking down then stright at me, The decision made no ref to having carers, dangers, fatigue, repetition, etc, ,etc with care elements. He asked me could i wash my hair and i said no, but got no points for b/washing, which is ridiculous. The wriiten decision is all over the placer and badly cont constructed.

I am not sure if I will go to appeal, though I am concerned about cross referencing wuith ESA, grip, etc, and if/how if affects my care package. though i should pay less towards my care now, i hope.


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## red & green (May 1, 2020)

Tree lover I recently attended a PIP appeal with a friend .My friend has a mental health condition an at the assessment was assessed only with reference to physical disabilities .My friend and I submitted statements and she didn’t reply to the decision as it was too stressful .She didn’t even open it .It arrived a couple of days just before the appeal hearing .

After asking my friend and I questions the Judge allowed her appeal and also reinstated her benefit that was reduced several years ago.

If you have any support try and complete the spell form and get a hearing date. I think those assessments are purely “ cost cuttting “ and they don’t want PIP claimants going to appeal.

I wish you all the best with this it’s really horrible


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## red & green (May 1, 2020)

* appeal form


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## treelover (May 1, 2020)

Hi, tx, not sure yet, it is incredibly hard to get high mobility, i will also hopefully pay less towards my care, i am concerned about c/ref ESA, grip is a key element with that, no mention of consequences with the PIP decision, though ESA does take cogniscance of back lash, fatigue, speaking to my wel/rights worker next week, but not rushing.

the blatant lying about memory is incredible, he kept chiding me for not answering straight away!


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## red & green (May 1, 2020)

Tree lover glad you have wel rights worker . Its a f disgrace because those ATOS people have no expertise at all. Please keeep us updated I’d you go ahead . I’m virtually rooting for you here. sorry you have to go through this


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## equationgirl (May 2, 2020)

treelover I don't think there is cross checking between the different benefits because various reports have shown the reports don't match for the same person. Remember they use software to construct these reports which is basically a series of drop down menus of predetermined statements. It's not a report actually written from any notes made during the meeting.

I strongly encourage you to consider an appeal or mandatory consideration of your case. Did you make a recording of the meeting (phone in pocket)?


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## BCBlues (May 2, 2020)

Thanks for the messages yesterday equationgirl ,much appreciated. It was cancelled in the end (by them) a couple of hours in advance. I wasnt happy of course but you get used to their snide little tactics in this process. It's only when it gets to the actual appeal itself that their practices can be really exposed as making health matters worse for individuals, and that's why I'll say...

treelover , if you can get help and support or if you can manage yourself I'd definitely appeal ( from what I can gather though you have yet to go through a Mandatory Decision??) It sounds like they're trying to palm you off with a lower rate than you're entitled to.


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 2, 2020)

treelover said:


> Just had PIP decision, after 3 months,
> 
> I am not sure if I will go to appeal, though I am concerned about cross referencing wuith ESA, grip, etc, and if/how if affects my care package. though i should pay less towards my care now, i hope.



In my experience it’s really worth going for the appeal. I helped two relations who both scored zero points at their assessment. We then had to go through the whole process of mandatory reconsideration and then appeal, which in both cases took about a year. BUT, it was worth it. One had his PIP award made equivalent to his old DLA and valid for the next 8 years. The other had a reduced award (still better than nothing) for 3 years. I also know of another relative who had her PIP award go from zero points to a better award than her old DLA, and made indefinite. In case you don’t know about it, there is an outfit called Benefits and Work, who have a really useful guide to all this. You have to be a member to get the full advice, which does cost a few quid, but I found it invaluable. All the best.


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## chainsawjob (May 2, 2020)

Yes, Benefits & Work's advice is invaluable, I've used their (member's only) guides for PIP & ESA, with success. Membership is about £20 annually, and they have frequent 'sales' where there's a couple of quid off. I think my membership has lapsed atm.

Another vote for 'appeal if you can' treelover, and get any support with it that's available. I've had answers on the B&W member's forum from their team, which have been helpful during appeal (which was cancelled in the end before I got to it, they reversed their decision, they had broken their own rules after all  ).

Sorry they mucked you about BCBlues, as you say, one of their little tactics. Doesn't help the blood pressure though. 2 hrs notice   I hope you won't need to get to appeal, but yes, as you say, that's when you can expose them.


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## equationgirl (May 4, 2020)

Sorry they're mucking you about BCBlues hopefully they will reschedule it soon.


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## chainsawjob (May 13, 2020)

(Sorry this isn't really in the right place... but a quickish answer is needed, deadline tomorrow... oops!)

Can I ask a quick question here? My brain's dancing with numbers & not thinking too clearly...

I'm applying for Universal Credit and I've been asked to provide my monthly income figures for Feb 19 - to Feb 20. From Feb - May 19 I was still on ESA. Then I came off it and started earning wages (not til July).

Do you count ESA, PIP or Child Benefit as income for the purposes of UC when providing past income figures?

I think PIP (which I was on until August 19) and CB are *not* treated as income, from what I've read.

But is ESA treated as income? I think so, but can anyone confirm please? I haven't been able to find a definite answer.

Thanks!


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 13, 2020)

chainsawjob said:


> (Sorry this isn't really in the right place... but a quickish answer is needed, deadline tomorrow... oops!)
> 
> Can I ask a quick question here? My brain's dancing with numbers & not thinking too clearly...
> 
> ...


Yep, you ‘ve got it. PIP, CB, DLA not treated as income. ESA and JSA are.


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## chainsawjob (May 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yep, you ‘ve got it. PIP, CB, DLA not treated as income. ESA and JSA are.



Thanks!


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## BCBlues (May 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Yep, you ‘ve got it. PIP, CB, DLA not treated as income. ESA and JSA are.



I've not had much dealings with UC yet thankfully, but I'd go with this. 

Perhaps chainsawjob , just confirm which ones you were receiving and when and full earnings details unless you have all the proof and bombard them.
All the best anyway.


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## chainsawjob (May 13, 2020)

BCBlues said:


> I've not had much dealings with UC yet thankfully, but I'd go with this.
> 
> Perhaps chainsawjob , just confirm which ones you were receiving and when and full earnings details unless you have all the proof and bombard them.
> All the best anyway.


Yeah, this is my first experience of UC, and with an all online system. There are no boxes to write detail in, like I'm used to from PIP & ESA. Not sure at what point I get to give them extra info like this, atm they just seem to want a total combined figure of earnings for each month, for me and my partner. But yes, I'll bombard them with info if I get the chance. Thanks


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## chainsawjob (May 25, 2020)

Another question if anyone can answer this please.

I answered yes to the question 'Are you disabled?' on the UC form. It said I will need to get fit notes from my GP. I haven't done this for years (didn't need to for ESA, I'd been on it so long). How does it work now? I'm sorta assuming they'll not grant me any ESA-component of UC as I doubt I'd get through all the hoops to qualify (face to face, and a bastard long form to complete I expect).

So what do I do? Do I ring my GP and ask them to sign me off? Are they doing this more readily atm without an in-person appointment? I mean I'm intending to return to work when lockdown ends. I'm not too ill to work. But the sort of work I can do, and how _much_ I can do _is _affected by my disability, which is what the UC form asked specifically. I guess PIP would be more appropriate here, but the thought of applying for that again, and prob having to go to appeal, is not... appealing!  I dunno. I hoped to leave all this behind when I decided to come off PIP and ESA last year, and return to work. Luckily, although I'm poorer since starting work, my OH earns, so I can 'afford' to work part time hours at minimum wage. Except he doesn't now, since corona. Hence the UC application. But we shall struggle on UC, the rent will be hard to pay. So if I got a higher rate for being disabled, that would be welcome.

This all seems hard to think about and get my head round, so if anyone has any helpful experience of this, or suggestions/advice on what I do about a sick note, I'd be very grateful. Thanks.


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## 8115 (May 25, 2020)

Ask the GP for a fit note. I don't know what you do if they won't give you one, because as you say they may say you're well enough to work. Actually I think a fit note can say "yes, but". Have you done the health questionnaire on the UC application? That's the other main thing.


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 25, 2020)

chainsawjob said:


> Another question if anyone can answer this please.
> 
> I answered yes to the question 'Are you disabled?' on the UC form. It said I will need to get fit notes from my GP. I haven't done this for years (didn't need to for ESA, I'd been on it so long). How does it work now? I'm sorta assuming they'll not grant me any ESA-component of UC as I doubt I'd get through all the hoops to qualify (face to face, and a bastard long form to complete I expect).
> 
> ...


It’s a shame you came off PIP in a way, cos you can still get it and work at the same time. I’ve no idea how long it takes to re-apply for PIP but if you can stomach it it might be worth it anyway, whatever else you do, even if it means an appeal etc.


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## chainsawjob (May 25, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s a shame you came off PIP in a way, cos you can still get it and work at the same time. I’ve no idea how long it takes to re-apply for PIP but if you can stomach it it might be worth it anyway, whatever else you do, even if it means an appeal etc.



Yeah, I always felt like I got PIP by the skin of my teeth, in the face of much opposition from the DWP (then again, can't we all say the same?). But I decided I was going to 'go it alone', I'd really had a gutful with everything, and was in a position, then, to survive financially. I hoped to get something better than a minimum wage p-t zero hrs job (and still aim to), but it was not to be. I was on DLA, followed by PIP for 20 years or so. Jeez, I've been on some disability benefit or other most of my adult life, there's only been a few years when my health's been ok enough to work f/t and earn enough to live on. What is now ESA was called Invalidity _Pension_ when I first went on it aged 21   Maybe I'll apply again. Sigh. Thanks though.


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## Kevbad the Bad (May 25, 2020)

chainsawjob said:


> Yeah, I always felt like I got PIP by the skin of my teeth, in the face of much opposition from the DWP (then again, can't we all say the same?). But I decided I was going to 'go it alone', I'd really had a gutful with everything, and was in a position, then, to survive financially. I hoped to get something better than a minimum wage p-t zero hrs job (and still aim to), but it was not to be. I was on DLA, followed by PIP for 20 years or so. Jeez, I've been on some disability benefit or other most of my adult life, there's only been a few years when my health's been ok enough to work f/t and earn enough to live on. What is now ESA was called Invalidity _Pension_ when I first went on it aged 21   Maybe I'll apply again. Sigh. Thanks though.


All the best. Perseverance is the key, as I’m sure you know. Don’t let the bastards grind you down.


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## equationgirl (Aug 7, 2020)

Hope everyone on the thread is doing ok. BCBlues did you ever get your assessment in the end?


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## pogo 10 (Nov 28, 2020)

Here we go, the dreaded brown envelope has arrived. Been out for a walk to clear my head. Filled in an reassessment form in october. Sod it here goes... Have been awarded the standard rate from now till november 2023. Phew, so glad i dont have to meet them face to face. Got score 11 points.


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## StoneRoad (Nov 28, 2020)

pleased for you pogo 10 - so nice that something has worked in your favour.


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## equationgirl (Nov 28, 2020)

That's excellent news pogo 10 one less thing to worry about.


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## panpete (Nov 29, 2020)

pogo 10 said:


> Here we go, the dreaded brown envelope has arrived. Been out for a walk to clear my head. Filled in an reassessment form in october. Sod it here goes... Have been awarded the standard rate from now till november 2023. Phew, so glad i dont have to meet them face to face. Got score 11 points.


Such a nice feeling all that weight off your mind. Weight on minds is the last thing benefit claimants need.


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 29, 2020)

pogo 10 said:


> Here we go, the dreaded brown envelope has arrived. Been out for a walk to clear my head. Filled in an reassessment form in october. Sod it here goes... Have been awarded the standard rate from now till november 2023. Phew, so glad i dont have to meet them face to face. Got score 11 points.


phew. glad for you!


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## iona (Jun 10, 2021)

Just a heads-up in case anyone else would find this useful and wasn't already aware - you can get a disabled persons railcard if you get PIP, at either rate and for either component (doesn't need to be mobility!). Costs 20 quid a year and gets you, and another adult traveling with you, ⅓ off most train fares though not season tickets iirc.


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## Thgsg (Jul 14, 2021)

Lee Harvey Oswold


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## krtek a houby (Jul 14, 2021)

Thgsg said:


> Lee Harvey Oswold


Please don't do this.


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## equationgirl (Jul 14, 2021)

They've been banned, thankfully. Of all threads, leave this one alone.

Anyway, I hope everyone is doing ok.


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## campanula (Jul 21, 2022)

My partner has had to do a work assessment on the phone. Needless to say, he has failed to get a penny more than the derisory £334 a month and has been told he has 'limited capacity for work'. Not really inclined to list his ailments here apart from saying it is ridiculous that he could do any work at all, frankly. He can barely manage the stairs! Anyway, I guess we have to appeal - any ideas what we should be doing at this stage. His doctor is relatively supportive but has told him that has no problems writing him fit notes...although ATOS have decided he doesn't need any more sicknotes. His 'interview'' took 30 minutes over the phone and he has no clue what grounds for assessment have been made. He is just going through the shock and misery stage right now and gathering his wits to phone a DWP number but is all depressed and hopeless. Obviously, need to appeal but just now, he is feeling very dreary.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 21, 2022)

campanula said:


> My partner has had to do a work assessment on the phone. Needless to say, he has failed to get a penny more than the derisory £334 a month and has been told he has 'limited capacity for work'. Not really inclined to list his ailments here apart from saying it is ridiculous that he could do any work at all, frankly. He can barely manage the stairs! Anyway, I guess we have to appeal - any ideas what we should be doing at this stage. His doctor is relatively supportive but has told him that has no problems writing him fit notes...although ATOS have decided he doesn't need any more sicknotes. His 'interview'' took 30 minutes over the phone and he has no clue what grounds for assessment have been made. He is just going through the shock and misery stage right now and gathering his wits to phone a DWP number but is all depressed and hopeless. Obviously, need to appeal but just now, he is feeling very dreary.


What benefit is he applying for?


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## BCBlues (Jul 21, 2022)

Looks like you are at the Mandatory Reconsideration stage where you write to them (DWP) and ask them to look at their decision again. Point out where you think that a "phone assessment" was of no use in establishing your partners conditions. Give them more proof if you have any especially letters from consultants, specialists. Do it within a month of the date on the decision letter (have you received one yet?) and make sure they know you are requesting a Mandatory  Reconsideration.

Wishing you all the best, stick with if you can, these are the stages where they try to grind us all down.


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 21, 2022)

Ask for a copy of the report. So you can see what they marked him down on.


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## campanula (Jul 21, 2022)

_I don't know, Kevbad the Bad . He has been on UC since the start of the pandemic cos he had been self-employed. However, his health is so utterly shit I told him he needed to sign up for any sort of sick benefit whatsoever. He only has the minimum UC and has no other benefits (because off-grid living in a wood). I get ESA and so have a disability premium which means I get around £130 a week and cannot really manage on that so how an ill person is supposed to survive on £80 a week is beyond me. And what if he gets worse?

It was my fault cos I let him do the interview by himself...where he was totally clueless to the trick questions, the nasty trip-ups, the utter callousness of the system and answered as though he was actually trying to fucking minimise his problems (cos he is ashamed). O I am so fucking angry - mostly with myself for not being ahead of the game...and now, after waiting over a year, he gets a letter saying although he cannot work just yet, they think he may be able to in the future (in a fucking cocked hat). He is freaking 9stone, can hardly breathe and a total eccentric loon.

This business where some nurse asks questions over a phone then ticks a box designed to show you in the worst possible light so save the state some money...FFS. Who do we ask for a copy of the report.  I have read that even appeals are rarely allowed...it is by no means a given right. I have been out of the benefits lark for a few years and have no idea how it all works now but surely, if his GP says he is too ill to work, some jobsworth at the DWP cannot overrule this...can they? Christ, I feel as though I have let him down and am deathly frightened for winter. As though we get 1 chance...and we have fucked it up.

O thank you, BCBlues - I am fired up and angry to get on it right away._


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## cesare (Jul 21, 2022)

campanula said:


> _I don't know, Kevbad the Bad . He has been on UC since the start of the pandemic cos he had been self-employed. However, his health is so utterly shit I told him he needed to sign up for any sort of sick benefit whatsoever. He only has the minimum UC and has no other benefits (because off-grid living in a wood). I get ESA and so have a disability premium which means I get around £130 a week and cannot really manage on that so how an ill person is supposed to survive on £80 a week is beyond me. And what if he gets worse?
> 
> It was my fault cos I let him do the interview by himself...where he was totally clueless to the trick questions, the nasty trip-ups, the utter callousness of the system and answered as though he was actually trying to fucking minimise his problems (cos he is ashamed). O I am so fucking angry - mostly with myself for not being ahead of the game...and now, after waiting over a year, he gets a letter saying although he cannot work just yet, they think he may be able to in the future (in a fucking cocked hat). He is freaking 9stone, can hardly breathe and a total eccentric loon.
> 
> ...


I'm sorry you both are going through this. You'll have more success the further you go through the appeals process in my limited experience. I've been to a benefits tribunal with another urban poster and it's worth pursuing.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 21, 2022)

If you can find one in your area, speak to a benefits advisor about your partner's claim. It could be that there is a more appropriate benefit he could go for. But whatever, fight the decision. I know of so many cases where people who obviously qualify for benefits have been denied them, often scoring zero points, only to have the decision reversed. I helped in two cases of family members, taking their case to tribunals. First you have to ask for mandatory reconsideration. Fill in the forms. Be thorough. You don't need to lie, but you need to say how bad things are on bad days. Don't even think about the good days. If the mandatory reconsideration fails, which it probably will, go to appeal and tribunal. It's a real pain, but you have a very high chance of success at tribunal level. It may take a long time. It took a year in both cases I was involved in. But we won, and everyone I know who has fought has won, even getting higher awards than before. Be strong, or as strong as you can be.


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## Cado (Jul 22, 2022)

Anybody else worked out that there is something really odd about DWP staff?

ie they're all GCSE failures - they struggle on the absolute basics.


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## David Clapson (Jul 22, 2022)

All I can suggest is to susbscribe at benefitsandwork.co.uk. It's very cheap and the step by step guides are brilliant. I used them for my appeal and the judge said I needn't bother to attend the hearing because he could decide in my favour just by reading my file.


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## BristolEcho (Jul 22, 2022)

Definitely try and get some support from a local service. Usually with limited capability to work you get filtered into two different groups and it sounds like he should be in the support group which should also mean he gets some more money. 

Also possible he may be eligible for PIP if he doesn't already claim that. I know it's hard to do multiple applications, but if you get in a claim now it will be backdated. Ask for an extension once you get the form and try to get some support with it. 

Turn2us have some good guides that I've used a few times.


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## campanula (Jul 22, 2022)

Ah, today has been horrible. He has spent a lot of it in bed while I am sitting in glum despair. It is so hard to fight this shit when you are already ill and weak. I am actually terribly frightened about his health which is failing on multiple counts while he refuses to countenance dealing with the GP (who are still only offering phone consultations and his symptoms are just...vague and overwhelming - it's hard to know where to start. I think he has given up. So sorry to be wobbling on here - I am normally competent and cheery (I know I don't come across like this but honestly, I am an optimist) but yep, it seems bitterly unfair because he is so fucking reluctant to ask for any sort of help at all and just seems stoically prepared to put up with shit. Very tearful and weedy, I'm afraid. So sorry, I know there are so many people worse off than us but I just don't think we can possibly even begin to make ends meet. At least I can work once I get my pension so there's that (although I can't quite see employers queuing up to employ a toothless, shy old bat)...

Who do we ask about getting a report. Should we write a letter to the DWP right away. Sorry, feeling a bit floored and vacant


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## BristolEcho (Jul 22, 2022)

No need to apologise sounds really stressful. What does it say on the letter you received? Are there currently any expectations for him to work towards employment? 

If you wanted to remove the personal details I'd be happy for you to PM a copy of the letter over to me or something.


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## BCBlues (Jul 22, 2022)

campanula said:


> Ah, today has been horrible. He has spent a lot of it in bed while I am sitting in glum despair. It is so hard to fight this shit when you are already ill and weak. I am actually terribly frightened about his health which is failing on multiple counts while he refuses to countenance dealing with the GP (who are still only offering phone consultations and his symptoms are just...vague and overwhelming - it's hard to know where to start. I think he has given up. So sorry to be wobbling on here - I am normally competent and cheery (I know I don't come across like this but honestly, I am an optimist) but yep, it seems bitterly unfair because he is so fucking reluctant to ask for any sort of help at all and just seems stoically prepared to put up with shit. Very tearful and weedy, I'm afraid. So sorry, I know there are so many people worse off than us but I just don't think we can possibly even begin to make ends meet. At least I can work once I get my pension so there's that (although I can't quite see employers queuing up to employ a toothless, shy old bat)...
> 
> Who do we ask about getting a report. Should we write a letter to the DWP right away. Sorry, feeling a bit floored and vacant



Sounds like you are both having a rough time. I think you should definately get onto the DWP about their reasoning. A letter is less stressful, phoning them is a nightmare sometimes. I'd be inclined to just rest now for the weekend, try to build a bit of strength up and then Monday write a short letter asking for written confirmation of their (DWP) decisions. Take it from there. I'm sure others on here will be giving helpful advice too. Keep us updated, dont worry about wobbling we all want to help if we can.


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## existentialist (Jul 22, 2022)

TBH, I suspect that the DWP is going to be a dry well. This system was *made* to treat people like this, and it's been doing it for years. People have killed themselves, and the DWP's only response was to attempt to cover up and hide the figures, even though they had them.

As has been said upthread, the only real option is to try to rise above it, go through the process, get to appeal, and prevail there. It makes me bloody furious to watch this going on - many of my clients are going through the same process - but any one individual is absolutely powerless in the face of a deliberately abusive, implacable system whose only aim is to deprive people of benefits that they are perfectly entitled to.


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## David Clapson (Jul 22, 2022)

I agree. We have to accept that the DWP is often wrong, probably knowingly and deliberately, because they know that many claimants won't finish the appeal process, because they have no one to help them or they are depressed, confused, sick or don't have long to live. At least we get benefits during the process, and back payments when appropriate. Ministers have tried to take away these protections, and failed. We still have the judges at the tribunals on our side. They know exactly what the DWP and ministers are up to. And we have resources like benefitsandwork. So it could be (even) worse.


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## xsunnysuex (Jul 22, 2022)

You ask DWP for the report. And they can't refuse to send it.


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## kittyP (Jul 23, 2022)

Oh campanula Im so sorry this is happening to you. 
It's utterly shit and demoralising, dehumanising and many other de's what the DWP do to us. 
I don't have any advice but fight in any way you can. 
Keep talking here too xxx


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## pseudonarcissus (Jul 23, 2022)

Cado said:


> Anybody else worked out that there is something really odd about DWP staff?
> 
> ie they're all GCSE failures - they struggle on the absolute basics.


I suspect there are incentives for them to say no whatever. I have a suspicion DWP (and the Home Office) turns people into monsters, rather than them recruiting “odd” people .


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## pseudonarcissus (Jul 23, 2022)

pseudonarcissus said:


> I suspect there are incentives for them to say no whatever. I have a suspicion DWP (and the Home Office) turns people into monsters, rather than them recruiting “odd” people .


Seriously, blame the system. Not the front line workers


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## campanula (Jul 23, 2022)

Actually, pseudonarcissus,
 the frontline workers have been rather lovely. Going out of their way to be helpful and supportive...at least the 'work coaches sweetheart has been dealing with for the last couple of years. However, I am not at all sure that the people doing the ATOS interviews are remotely human, relying on a tickbox system which can be interpreted in various ways (such as 'do you speak to people in your daily life'). Well yes, obviously there will be some interaction in shops...but this is not what the questionnaire really means is it? And answering literally gives these workers an excuse to put the harshest interpretation forward. Supposedly medical professionals who absolutely must have left their medical ethics at the door, even to take a DWP salary based on discrimination and a brutal target system. So yes, while there should be some distinction between the workers and the system, it is not clear cut and unambiguous that any of the workers are actually working on behalf of claimants and instead, are actively complicit with this obviously broken institution which does not prioritise other people over business.


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## existentialist (Jul 23, 2022)

I have known a few of the frontline workers and, allowing for the fact that the ones I even see are somewhat bound to be the kinder, gentler types, it's pretty obvious that a lot of them are decent people who are having to do a very unpleasant job, often in places where there isn't much other work available. And, if anyone knows what a life of benefits is going to be like, it's them - it would not be an exaggeration to say that quite a few of them live in some degree of fear, because they _know_ what the system does to people who have to use it.


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## Humberto (Jul 23, 2022)

When I was assessed for PIP they repeated the same questions, obviously trying to catch me out. I'd kind of worked out what questions they were going to ask (similar to the form I had to fill in beforehand) and kept going back to notes I had written down. Repeating myself if necessary.

It's dishonest is what it is. And they treat you on the assumption that YOU are the dishonest one. As has been said, tell them what it's like on the bad days (if this is how it is for you), or they won't help you.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 23, 2022)

I've usually found that most DWP staff have been OK and friendly and helpful. ATOS seemingly friendly, but they, or a subsection behind the scenes, are the ones who are nasty and deceptive. At the tribunal level the DWP staff have been apologetic and almost fell over each other to criticise the earlier decisions.


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## campanula (Jul 24, 2022)

So, I am looking at this as an extended process with the initial assessment acting as only the first part of a much longer battle. Any ideas how long this might take? We are going to write the first letter tomorrow (having fortified ourselves with gardening over the weekend) and I am going to claim I am an independent benefits advisor...which is not exactly a lie since I have done many such forms for neighbours in precovid days...back when ESA was still a thing. They did ask my fella if he had any help with the form (he said no) so I think they may be a wee bit more circumspect if they get a whiff that no-one is simply giving up...yet. I have been reading some depressing stats though - the majority of appeals do not actually get further than mandatory reassessment because they can simply refuse to allow you to take it any further. It seems that there is no automatic right to any sort of appeal unless they agree...so fuck knows where you go if they just blow it out the window. Still, one step at a time. I feel I definitely need more advice but our Citizen's Advice are not known for being particularly helpful or dynamic and the drug clinic (CGL) are even worse, with key workers actually unwilling to involve themselves in anything at all ( unless it is signing you up for some fucking ear acupuncture or a (smirk) weekly group chat (which will never, ever occur). Think the GP might be a bit more forthcoming but not really sure how they would get involved as it seems the DWP are very keen to keep everything totally in-house (which seems insane to me - refusing to accept the evidence of an actual GP who has been treating sweetheart for the last few years(reluctantly, on his part, though).

Would it be worth applying for PIP? How likely would it be...to get a PIP award after an ATOS refusal?


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## equationgirl (Jul 24, 2022)

campanula said:


> So, I am looking at this as an extended process with the initial assessment acting as only the first part of a much longer battle. Any ideas how long this might take? We are going to write the first letter tomorrow (having fortified ourselves with gardening over the weekend) and I am going to claim I am an independent benefits advisor...which is not exactly a lie since I have done many such forms for neighbours in precovid days...back when ESA was still a thing. They did ask my fella if he had any help with the form (he said no) so I think they may be a wee bit more circumspect if they get a whiff that no-one is simply giving up...yet. I have been reading some depressing stats though - the majority of appeals do not actually get further than mandatory reassessment because they can simply refuse to allow you to take it any further. It seems that there is no automatic right to any sort of appeal unless they agree...so fuck knows where you go if they just blow it out the window. Still, one step at a time. I feel I definitely need more advice but our Citizen's Advice are not known for being particularly helpful or dynamic and the drug clinic (CGL) are even worse, with key workers actually unwilling to involve themselves in anything at all ( unless it is signing you up for some fucking ear acupuncture or a (smirk) weekly group chat (which will never, ever occur). Think the GP might be a bit more forthcoming but not really sure how they would get involved as it seems the DWP are very keen to keep everything totally in-house (which seems insane to me - refusing to accept the evidence of an actual GP who has been treating sweetheart for the last few years(reluctantly, on his part, though).
> 
> Would it be worth applying for PIP? How likely would it be...to get a PIP award after an ATOS refusal?


Advice on this thread previously has been apply for everything.

Also, mandatory reconsiderations have increased a lot over the lifetime on this thread. But the last time I checked it was something like 69% were successful, and a similar percentage for those forced to appeal.

Unfortunately as you point out this is a long-term thing and sadly it can take many months for things to be overturned. So prepare yourself for a long fight. If you can afford benefits and work it's worth looking into.

Hang in there, there's some good advice on this thread Greebo may she rest in a peaceful forest had awesome things to say.


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## David Clapson (Jul 24, 2022)

campanula said:


> the majority of appeals do not actually get further than mandatory reassessment because they can simply refuse to allow you to take it any further. It seems that there is no automatic right to any sort of appeal unless they agree...so fuck knows where you go if they just blow it out the window.


I wasn't aware of this. Might be a good idea to double check it by trawling the news section and the forum at benefitsandwork


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 24, 2022)

It always used to be the case that you had an absolute right to both mandatory reconsideration and appeal. That was true only a couple of years ago. Really worth checking. If they've changed that it's very recent.


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## geminisnake (Jul 24, 2022)

does your local council have a welfare rights dept/office? They should be able to help.


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## campanula (Jul 24, 2022)

Um, I don't know what to think, David Clapson. I have looked at the benefit and work website and they have a very gloomy prognosis.  6 out of 7 mandatory reconsiderations fail, according to them. They are very adamant that you need to know all the tricks and wheezes but having already jumped ahead and done the initial form, would it make any difference subscribing. It isn't a huge amount of money (£20 ), I guess, but  we should probably have done all this before applying in the first place. It seemed obvious (to us) that sweetheart was never going to be able to work again (or he would, FFS) and we were really a bit naive about how bloody intransigent and frankly callous, the whole thing is.  No-one would be jumping through these humiliating hoops if they had any other choice. I frequently fear he is not even going to survive
 another year, tbh.

I may have misunderstood, Kevbad the Bad. I thought that if you failed to get a mandatory reconsideration, you were basically fucked. I realise how much everything has changed in the last few years - even the possibility of having a face to face seems to have been closed down. I guess I really don't know the ins and outs of it all, anymore.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 25, 2022)

campanula said:


> Um, I don't know what to think, David Clapson. I have looked at the benefit and work website and they have a very gloomy prognosis.  6 out of 7 mandatory reconsiderations fail, according to them. They are very adamant that you need to know all the tricks and wheezes but having already jumped ahead and done the initial form, would it make any difference subscribing. It isn't a huge amount of money (£20 ), I guess, but  we should probably have done all this before applying in the first place. It seemed obvious (to us) that sweetheart was never going to be able to work again (or he would, FFS) and we were really a bit naive about how bloody intransigent and frankly callous, the whole thing is.  No-one would be jumping through these humiliating hoops if they had any other choice. I frequently fear he is not even going to survive
> another year, tbh.
> 
> I may have misunderstood, Kevbad the Bad. I thought that if you failed to get a mandatory reconsideration, you were basically fucked. I realise how much everything has changed in the last few years - even the possibility of having a face to face seems to have been closed down. I guess I really don't know the ins and outs of it all, anymore.


It's a long shot, but it may be worth getting your M.P. On board. A cousin of mine contacted his, a rank Tory, and he intervened somehow (unofficially maybe?) and got the decision reviewed before it even got to mandatory reconsideration. That was for pip. I tried that too for a relative and it didn't work, although eventually we succeed. Might be worth trying. More work for you though. I could send you the blurb we received from benefits and work if you like, though it is a few years old now.


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## Sapphireblue (Jul 25, 2022)

campanula said:


> Um, I don't know what to think, David Clapson. I have looked at the benefit and work website and they have a very gloomy prognosis.  6 out of 7 mandatory reconsiderations fail, according to them. They are very adamant that you need to know all the tricks and wheezes but having already jumped ahead and done the initial form, would it make any difference subscribing. It isn't a huge amount of money (£20 ), I guess, but  we should probably have done all this before applying in the first place. It seemed obvious (to us) that sweetheart was never going to be able to work again (or he would, FFS) and we were really a bit naive about how bloody intransigent and frankly callous, the whole thing is.  No-one would be jumping through these humiliating hoops if they had any other choice. I frequently fear he is not even going to survive
> another year, tbh.
> 
> I may have misunderstood, Kevbad the Bad. I thought that if you failed to get a mandatory reconsideration, you were basically fucked. I realise how much everything has changed in the last few years - even the possibility of having a face to face seems to have been closed down. I guess I really don't know the ins and outs of it all, anymore.



previous advice on here was that the mandatory reconsideration was nearly always refused, but you had to do it first before going to appeal (which takes ages but nearly always gets the right decision and back-dated money).


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## iona (Jul 25, 2022)

campanula I'm on legacy ESA, not whatever baffling amalgamation of UC / "new style" ESA they're putting people on now which I'm unfamiliar with and may work differently, so don't want to give too much specific advice based on my own experiences. I'm happy to try looking stuff up for you some time this week though once I've recharged myself with some gardening 

Just quickly looking through the list of resources I've used in the past to help people with applications/assessments/appeals -

Benefits and Work has already been mentioned I think? Let me know if you need a paid membership login.​​Rightsnet have various advisor guides here. You'd want the work capability assessment (WCA) one, I think, but the UC one may also be relevant.​​You can find the ESA criteria descriptors and points online e.g. disability rights uk. Their page also has a simple, clear guide on how to ask for a mandatory reconsideration here (I've quoted it below, but including the link as well so you can click through to related pages).​​Citizens advice have a good guide to filling in the ESA work capability form which will be largely applicable to UC and the appeals process too, in terms of how to think about what descriptors apply and the language to use.​Some organisations for specific health conditions may also have benefits advice online that gives more relevant examples.​The healthcare professionals (i.e. assessors) WCA handbook is also useful for guidance on how descriptors should be considered and applied, iirc.​



			
				Disability Rights UK website said:
			
		

> How to ask for a mandatory reconsideration
> 
> You can ask for a mandatory reconsideration over the phone, but you should confirm your request in writing. Write to the office address on the decision letter and keep a copy of your request. You can also ask for a mandatory reconsideration using form CRMR1. If you are claiming universal credit, you can ask for a mandatory reconsideration by using your online journal; if you do so, take a screenshot or photograph of the reconsideration request and confirm the request in writing or over the phone.
> 
> ...



Comparing what points he was awarded / what descriptors he met on the assessment report, once you have it, with what you/he think he _should_ have scored (considering citizens advice guide / WCA handbook linked above; can he do activity _repeatedly, reliably and safely_; always frame answers as "no, unless..." / "not without..." rather than "yes, but...").
This is the basis of your request for mandatory reconsideration - along with any supporting evidence you can provide e.g. doctor's report - but as stated above, it's fine to put in a basic request for MR initially so you don't miss deadline and then get back to them later with all this. *Make it clear that you will do this, ideally both by phone & in writing, and request they don't take further action until you've had the chance to respond to the evidence (WCA report) that they provide.*

FWIW I've asked for mandatory reconsiderations in the past and been successful. It does happen. I get PIP too and the application & assessment process for that seemed to be pretty separate from ESA (and again, mandatory reconsideration got me moved from daily living standard to enhanced rate).

I can dig out examples of how I've worded MR letters if that would be at all helpful, but should stress that this is only what's worked for me and not necessarily the best way of doing it.


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## BCBlues (Jul 25, 2022)

I've had the extremes with Mandatory Reconsiderations (MR). One supported the Health Care Assistant's (HCA) view that there was nothing wrong with me. In my appeal I doubted very much whether they had even looked at my claim again. It was overturned at appeal (ESA Support Group).
Second one, again HCA decided there was nothing wrong with me but this one was overturned the decision, increased my PIP and made it an indefinite award ie no review date set.
I honestly think however that the MR stage is just another hurdle placed in the middle of the process to put people off from pursuing their claims. For this reason I agree totally with iona especially the bold bit. 

Keep going campanula and partner. It can take a while but it's worth sticking in there.


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## nottsgirl (Jul 25, 2022)

Do apply for PIP. The left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing, in this case that actually works in your favour.


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## David Clapson (Jul 25, 2022)

campanula said:


> would it make any difference subscribing


Yes. You need to read the guides. They're only for subscribers. (And you can avoid paying by using iona's ID.)  

There's so much to read and understand that it's a bit like doing an A level. It still astonishes me that a disabled person has to pass an A level to get the income which the welfare state is legally obliged to pay. But you have to accept this reality, or get someone else to do it for you, or give up.


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## equationgirl (Jul 29, 2022)

campanula I'm always happy to help via PM, have done it for urbs in the past.


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## campanula (Aug 18, 2022)

Arrrgh, the DWP have now started insisting that sweetheart attends group work-focus stuff in person. Almost certain this is because he has had the temerity to raise his head above the parapet since he has never been asked to go into the job-centre since the start of Covid. Has started the Mandatory Reconsideration but I am having the greatest trouble in getting him to accept that the DWP do not play fair...and he is also really fucking resistant to admitting his level of disability...such as telling his GP that he can walk for a mile with a few stops. This is true, if we had all bloody day to do it. So his GP writes him a letter which does not mention the severity of his debility and also misses out quite a lot of stuff such as brittle bones and fragile skin. Why so? Because he didn't bring it up.
I have been a bit naive - I should have overseen his forms...but am on it now, but sweetheart is still struggling to see that the DWP is not any sort of welfare organisation. Also, he gets all bewildered and keeps asking if there is anything else he can apply for because he just cannot really accept that the modern Tory-led UK has no interest whatsoever in the well-being of it's citizen's. This is a profoundly disorientating shock for a lot of people - realising that the safety nets they fondly expected to exist, are no longer there. Instead, there is a pit filled with sharpened spears.


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## BCBlues (Aug 18, 2022)

Keep at 'em campanula , and well done for the perserverance, both of you.


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## l'Otters (Aug 18, 2022)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I've usually found that most DWP staff have been OK and friendly and helpful. ATOS seemingly friendly, but they, or a subsection behind the scenes, are the ones who are nasty and deceptive. At the tribunal level the DWP staff have been apologetic and almost fell over each other to criticise the earlier decisions.


The dwp pays them to do that, in that way, for the results they get. 

The individuals working for the dwp are often decent and human about their day to day job. The organisation however is still responsible for how it’s contractors operate.


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## iona (Aug 18, 2022)

campanula said:


> Also, he gets all bewildered and keeps asking if there is anything else he can apply for


Theres also PIP, but he should apply for that *as well* if/when yous can face it - not just give up on the UC and go for PIP instead.


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## BristolEcho (Aug 18, 2022)

iona said:


> Theres also PIP, but he should apply for that *as well* if/when yous can face it - not just give up on the UC and go for PIP instead.


Yep apply for PIP, but with your capacity focus on what you can. There might be local services that can help with PIP.


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## campanula (Aug 18, 2022)

I don't think we can do this without some advocacy so I am going to get  my daughter to check out any local groups in  Norwich (she is more plugged into the activist scene).


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## equationgirl (Aug 20, 2022)

campanula said:


> I don't think we can do this without some advocacy so I am going to get  my daughter to check out any local groups in  Norwich (she is more plugged into the activist scene).


There was help available at some Citizen Advice Bureau but I don't know how they are functioning post pandemic.


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## Karl Masks (Aug 29, 2022)

Does anyone know more specific details about this?









						Top Tory quietly changes rules to push 114k Universal Credit claimants into work
					

Welfare Secretary Therese Coffey has changed the rules for her intensive work regime which means even those with health problems must attend compulsory weekly sessions at Jobcentres from next month




					www.mirror.co.uk


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## campanula (Aug 30, 2022)

Sweetheart had to attend one of these last week. However, first off, it was a group interview of 15 people which took about 10 minutes. The DWP worker disclosed that 28 staff had been laid off  since Covid and there weren't enough workers to manage to conduct ANY weekly interviews or ones which were one to one. Apparently, jobseekers (ha) do have a  right to request being seen in private but seeing as the system is at breaking point doing group interviews every few months, the idea that over 100K people will be forced to attend weekly interviews is just a Tory wank fantasy.. Sweetheart has been told he will not have to attend again for 3 months. Coffey is a filthy vicious cunt who hasn't a fucking clue. Despised by DWP staff.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 31, 2022)

campanula said:


> Coffey is a filthy vicious cunt who hasn't a fucking clue. Despised by DWP staff.


and so say all of us!

Hope your sweetheart is ok. x


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## Karl Masks (Aug 31, 2022)

campanula said:


> Sweetheart had to attend one of these last week. However, first off, it was a group interview of 15 people which took about 10 minutes. The DWP worker disclosed that 28 staff had been laid off  since Covid and there weren't enough workers to manage to conduct ANY weekly interviews or ones which were one to one. Apparently, jobseekers (ha) do have a  right to request being seen in private but seeing as the system is at breaking point doing group interviews every few months, the idea that over 100K people will be forced to attend weekly interviews is just a Tory wank fantasy.. Sweetheart has been told he will not have to attend again for 3 months. Coffey is a filthy vicious cunt who hasn't a fucking clue. Despised by DWP staff.


Even though a hierarchy of tory scum is ultimately pointless, and the fact they are all irredeemably evil, I actually think she's the worst. Dead eyed unpleasant and thoroughly ignorant. Like a diseased cow that's been trained to kill


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## campanula (Sep 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> Even though a hierarchy of tory scum is ultimately pointless, and the fact they are all irredeemably evil, I actually think she's the worst. Dead eyed unpleasant and thoroughly ignorant. Like a diseased cow that's been trained to kill


Me too. Not just because we (sweetheart and I) are under the DWP lash, but because Coffey really is a spiteful, hate-filled individual who, I think, loathes ordinary people who are put in a position where they require supplemental help. Coffey appears to see us as less then human, scrounging, dishonest filth, because everything she sees and does is filtered through her own brutal lens. Some, like Truss, are just ignorant, unthinking and basically selfish, while others are unapologetic opportunists who barely consider the public at all. Coffey, otoh, is one of those who actively despises us, for some opaque reasoning, and who deliberately chooses to promote a hateful agenda of some sort of vicious social Darwinism. Pretty certain she would happily sign up for nation-wide eugenics, forced sterilisation and segregation - the whole works.


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## Karl Masks (Sep 1, 2022)

campanula said:


> Me too. Not just because we (sweetheart and I) are under the DWP lash, but because Coffey really is a spiteful, hate-filled individual who, I think, loathes ordinary people who are put in a position where they require supplemental help. Coffey appears to see us as less then human, scrounging, dishonest filth, because everything she sees and does is filtered through her own brutal lens. Some, like Truss, are just ignorant, unthinking and basically selfish, while others are unapologetic opportunists who barely consider the public at all. Coffey, otoh, is one of those who actively despises us, for some opaque reasoning, and who deliberately chooses to promote a hateful agenda of some sort of vicious social Darwinism. Pretty certain she would happily sign up for nation-wide eugenics, forced sterilisation and segregation - the whole works.


I mean, she just has that look of aggressive indifference that explains utter callousness. It'd be very easy to mock her obvious attributes, but honestly with a creature as morally hideous as her I find it hard to care.


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## campanula (Sep 1, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I mean, she just has that look of aggressive indifference that explains utter callousness. It'd be very easy to mock her obvious attributes, but honestly with a creature as morally hideous as her I find it hard to care.


Her 'obvious attributes' are sneakily ushering in sly rulings which demonise the most vulnerable people in the UK. To blithely load more grief and humiliation onto people who get the lowest welfare payments in Europe. Basically, to pick on and bully people who are living with pain, distress, uncertainty and poverty. A  moral vacuum and despicable human being.


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## l'Otters (Sep 3, 2022)

Karl Masks said:


> I mean, she just has that look of aggressive indifference that explains utter callousness. It'd be very easy to mock her obvious attributes, but honestly with a creature as morally hideous as her I find it hard to care.


I haven’t got a mental picture of who this refers to but I’m assuming you mean mocking some physical aspect or other. Don’t know if this helps but the reason to care about mocking peoples physique or other aspect of their appearance has nothing to do with caring about that person. It’s so as not to mock every other person who shares those physical attributes or quirks of appearance.

To pick a very common example, I don’t think any of those scum currently holding power in the Houses of Parliament would care about someone taking the piss about them being overweight on this forum. But it’d burn anyone reading it who is unhappy about their weight.


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