# £15k now to do an OU degree?



## Hollis (Aug 2, 2011)

Got this in an email today:

"Fees from September 2012
For students in England studying with us for the first time from 1 September 2012 there will be a standard fee of *£5,000 *based on 120 credits of study. This is equivalent to a year’s full-time study at traditional universities. 

The fee we’ve announced is the result of thorough research and is the lowest fee we are able to charge while ensuring we can continue to offer the quality, flexibility and accessibility for which the OU is renowned.

At the same time we’ve simplified our fee structure so that what you pay will be proportionate to the standard fee – for example, those studying at the rate of one 60 credit module each year will pay 50 per cent of the standard fee. 

Why are we increasing fees?
The reason we have to increase our fees is that the UK government is changing the way higher education in England is funded. Instead of paying grants directly to universities as it has previously done, the government is shifting most of its financial support to students through the changes it has made to its student loans scheme."

I'm sure they're keeping fees as low as they can - but its going to massively put off loads of part-time students innit.


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## Hollis (Aug 2, 2011)

And of course I guess that makes it £15k in total.  As opposed to say the £4k-£5k it used to be.


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## strung out (Aug 2, 2011)

it's horrific. the best thing about the OU was the fact you could get a degree paying £700 a year and £2.5k is going to be way beyond the means of a lot of people. i'm glad i've just finished mine.


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 2, 2011)

I wouldn't have been able to afford it had I been a couple of years later starting. Or I would have had massive problems. It's insane. Like a deliberate effort to ensure only the well-off can do a degree, worry-free. In fact not "like". It's exactly what it is.


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## Hollis (Aug 2, 2011)

Even from a 'money first' viewpoint - I cant help thinking its a false economy.  Its going to reduce people's chances of improving their skills, trying out different things and taking risks - more rigidity in the labour market, people forced to effectively deskill themselves.


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## Crispy (Aug 2, 2011)

How easy is it to get loans to pay for that, and on what terms?


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## Hollis (Aug 2, 2011)

Its the same as other students, I think.


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## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2011)

It wasn't when i tried. Not available at all.


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## Hollis (Aug 2, 2011)

They just changed it!  That's the 'upside' of err, more than doubling the fees..

The only bit of the email they've put in bold:

*"Importantly for anyone thinking of starting OU study, these student loans are being extended to most part-time students for the first time."*


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## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2011)

Quick google says part timers can, not full timers. Anyone know for sure? If for FTer's i'm getting in there and defaulting sharpish.


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 3, 2011)

Yeah, they're changing it to make it possible for OU students to borrow on the same terms as other students - PT and FT. In fact it's going to be pretty much expected of you, I don't know how else most people will be able to find the money, even PTers.

http://www8.open.ac.uk/study/explained/fees-2012/new-to-study

'To help you fund your study costs you may be eligible for a government-backed student loan, which means you won’t have to pay your fees upfront. You’ll only begin to repay the loan after three years, and only if you are earning more than £21,000.
*To qualify you’ll need to study at a pace that’s equivalent to at least 25 per cent of a full-time student*, for example an OU course worth 30 credits. *And you’ll need to be studying for an undergraduate qualification that’s higher than any you already have*.'

So career-changers  with a first degree already aren't eligible for loans. Massive oversight imo.


Edit: And from DirectGov:

'From 2012/13 you can get a Tuition Fee Loan of up to:
    £9,000 for new full-time students, *including full-time distance learning students*
    £6,750 for part-time students whose courses are at least 25 per cent of a full-time course each year (eg. four years instead of one year full time)'

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Educati...tyAndHigherEducation/StudentFinance/DG_194804


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## 19sixtysix (Aug 3, 2011)

> or students in England studying with us for the first time from 1 September 2012 there will be a standard fee of £5,000



*Get started before then and you get it at existing rates till 2017.* So if you were thinking about it sign up and start a level one course before then and its still £700 a year. Even a small 10 point course will count as long as you register for a degree.


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## London_Calling (Aug 3, 2011)

Just poking around:



> *How much will I have to pay back if I take out a student loan in England?*
> 
> That depends on your earnings. Once you reach your repayment day (April 2016 for a part-time student taking out a loan in 2012), and if your income is above the £21,000 threshold, you will pay 9 per cent of your income above that threshold. So, for instance, with an annual salary of £25,000, you would pay 9 per cent of £4,000, or £30 per month.





> *Which is better value - an OUSBA loan or a Student Loans Company loan for a student in England?*
> 
> We are unable to advise you on this as it depends on your individual circumstances, but the key difference is that paying through OUSBA allows you to pay your fees as you study rather than accumulating a debt at the end of your studies. On the other hand, by taking out a government-backed student loan in 2012, as a student in England you will benefit from having your repayments deferred until 2016, and only having to start repayments when you are earning above £21,000.





> *I already have an undergraduate/postgraduate degree but want to get a second degree to change career/enhance my career prospects. How can I fund my studies?*
> 
> Government-backed student loans through the Student Loans Company are only available for first undergraduate degrees in England. However, if you already hold an undergraduate qualification that isn't a full degree (for example, a certificate of higher education, a diploma or a foundation degree) you may be eligible to continue your studies up to full degree level with the support of a student loan.
> 
> If you are a graduate in England and want to study another undergraduate degree or a postgraduate qualification, you will be able to apply to the Open University Student Budget Account (OUSBA) for a loan to cover the cost of your fees. Alternatively you may wish to talk to your employer about sponsoring your studies.



Interestingly, as per Gov plans for other uni courses, with the OU you can pay for your course upfront. I'm sure the last I read about Gov plans was that people who did pay upfront incurred additional costs (so those who couldn't weren't penalised), but none of that is mentioned in relation to the OU (as best I could see). Possibly an oversight...


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

I think you've always been able to pay up front with the OU, so it may not apply.

I am so fucking glad that I started my degree last year now though!


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## fractionMan (Aug 4, 2011)

omg.  This is the worst thing they could have done.  The OU is fucked, lives are fucked.

This is a sad fucking day


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

Innit, so many people on my summer school were paying their fees out of their own wages. I'd guess that one hell of a lot of them wouldn't be there under the new fee structure, including me.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

You can't afford £30 a month on a salary of £25,000, or you don't accept the OU numbers?


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## fractionMan (Aug 4, 2011)

You will pay 9% extra tax _forever_ if you're earning 25k.  But that's not the point, is it?

The point is I would never have done it in the first place and I would still be in the dead end job I was doing when I started my OU degree.  And it'll be the same for many, many people in the future.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

Sorry, I was talking to stuff it.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> You can't afford £30 a month on a salary of £25,000, or you don't accept the OU numbers?


 
Most working folk are already up to their eyeballs in debt. And yes, you will pay extra tax forever pretty much, or at least for a good long while - especially as OU students tend to be much older it equates to forever for a lot of people unless they pay back a lot more than that.

If I were indebting myself to the tune of £2.5k/pa instead of getting a fee grant I would have been a lot more wary of starting as well. Lets look at the other portion of OU students then, the ones who's employer is paying their fees...the economy is going so well isn't it? I'm sure it will be very easy for people to convince their employers to shell out in the future with it all costing 3x as much.


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## fractionMan (Aug 4, 2011)

Yeah, me getting them to pay for my masters has gone precisely nowhere, despite working for an educational charity and being directly related to my job.  If they won't do it, I can't imagine many others would.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

You said you wouldn't "be there" under this fee structure. I'm asking to better understand, is all. It's the £30 a month then?


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## fractionMan (Aug 4, 2011)

Quadrupling the price puts certain barriers in the way, no?


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> You said you wouldn't "be there" under this fee structure. I'm asking to better understand, is all. It's the £30 a month then?


 
With the way things are going one would be foolish to walk into debt lightheartedly. 

I think people that got their degrees straight out of school have little idea how massive that sort of debt looks to us minimum wagers.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> omg.  This is the worst thing they could have done.  The OU is fucked, lives are fucked.
> 
> This is a sad fucking day


 
They didn't have any choice.
Under the old system of financial assistance, the OU were able to roll a lot of it into keeping fees down for those who could pay, and paying or part-paying fees for those who couldn't. The ConDems changed the entire set-up for "financial assistance" so that it's now almost entirely loans-based rather than a block grant, hence the OU having to precipitously raise their fees.

As it is, they're holding them at about 60% of the FT average, i.e. about £2,500 per year/£5,000 per 120 points.

The OU aren't happy about this, the alumni aren't happy about it, and apparently lots of very strong representations have been made to govt, but the Tories have always had a hard-on for the OU, and now it looks like they've finally got to fuck it.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

A very sad day indeed, but I was expecting this. You couldn't have unis charging 6k upwards and the OU charging a fraction of that. The tories have utterly fucked higher education now. They have turned education fully into a commodity to be bought and sold. 

Tories are as tories do, but Blair started this. He betrayed every single Labour voter by introducing fees - the tories could have done none of this without him.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> You can't afford £30 a month on a salary of £25,000, or you don't accept the OU numbers?


 
People are put off by the headline debt. I don't know about you, but where I come from, the idea of taking on £15,000 of fees debt is scary, and having it hanging over you for decades, even if you never earn enough to repay it, is also scary.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> With the way things are going one would be foolish to walk into debt lightheartedly.
> 
> I think people that got their degrees straight out of school have little idea how massive that sort of debt looks to us minimum wagers.


 
Yup, and if you've been brought up to see debt as something that, more often than not, will bite you on the arse, then you've got the psychological as well as the economic hurdle.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> With the way things are going one would be foolish to walk into debt lightheartedly.
> 
> I think people that got their degrees straight out of school have little idea how massive that sort of debt looks to us minimum wagers.


That's also interesting; many would see it as an_ investment_ rather than "walking into debt". There's not a right or wrong, just perspectives.

I've often pondered how much of our perspective of debt is based on the subconscious and develops from childhood - our parents,  neighbours, school friends parents, etc. Debt can be understood as entirely enabling - a family gaining wealth through property equity, for example. Or it can be visceral and entirely negative - debt collectors knocking, causing broken adult relationships, etc. We surely must carry that forward (on some level) into early adulthood where it influences our own life decisions _on an emotional basis _ as well as a practical  ....

Obv. on min wage - and almost double min wage, you don't have to worry about repayments.



ViolentPanda said:


> People are put off by the headline debt. I don't know about you, but where I come from, the idea of taking on £15,000 of fees debt is scary, and having it hanging over you for decades, even if you never earn enough to repay it, is also scary.


 I look at it as £30 a month, just as I'd look at a mortgage as £1,500 a month or a direct debit to the gym as £40 a month.

But how you view it or I view it matters not.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> That's also interesting; many would see it as an_ investment_ rather than "walking into debt". There's not a right or wrong, just perspectives.
> 
> I've often pondered how much of our perspective of debt is based on the subconscious and develops from childhood - our parents,  neighbours, school friends parents, etc. Debt can be understood as entirely enabling - a family gaining wealth through property equity, for example. Or it can be visceral and entirely negative - debt collectors knocking, causing broken adult relationships, etc. We surely must carry that forward (on some level) into early adulthood where it influences our own life decisions _on an emotional basis _ as well as a practical  ....
> 
> ...


 
Which is why I said "people are put off by the headline debt", you _schnorrer_. People, as in not me. 

Where do I get those "people" from? The various bits of research the universities and the govt have done since fees were introduced, plus the small amount of in-depth reportage done by the media.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> That's also interesting; many would see it as an_ investment_ rather than "walking into debt". *There's not a right or wrong, just perspectives.*
> .


 
Not sure what you mean by that. To me there is a clear wrong - the way that charging such enormous fees turns inequality into a moral good. You should expect to be paid more - a lot more - if you've had to put yourself into huge debt to qualify for a particular job. These changes will accelerate the process of increasing inequality. The whole way of looking at education as something to be bought and sold in a marketplace is horrible. In that sense, your perspective of 'investment' is my perspective of extortion - that which was given by right we must now buy. University education has been stolen from us.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not sure what you mean by that. To me there is a clear wrong - the way that charging such enormous fees turns inequality into a moral good. You should expect to be paid more - a lot more - if you've had to put yourself into huge debt to qualify for a particular job. These changes will accelerate the process of increasing inequality. The whole way of looking at education as something to be bought and sold in a marketplace is horrible. In that sense, your perspective of 'investment' is my perspective of extortion - that which was given by right we must now buy. University education has been stolen from us.


 
+1


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

I was pretty obv. talking about 'debt' as a concept and how people with different experiences - from childhood - experience and feel differnetly about 'debt'.

You,  as usual, are off with the fairies.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

I was pretty obv. talking about 'debt' as a concept and how people with different experiences - from childhood - understand and (literally) feel differently very about 'debt'.

You,  as usual, appear to be off with the hand-wringing fairies.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

You said there is no right or wrong. How so?

Perhaps at least part of how people feel about debt concerns the way they have been forced into taking, and the way they think societies ought to be run. IE, it very much is to do with what they think is right and wrong.

You'll be telling me this isn't about politics next.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You said there is no right or wrong. How so?
> 
> Perhaps at least part of how people feel about debt concerns the way they have been forced into taking, and the way they think societies ought to be run. IE, it very much is to do with what they think is right and wrong.


 
By the very fact that people from better off families will more than likely have benefited from debt, they are more likely to see it as a viable option. The way things are being set up it is just one more way to oppress people.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

I'm not _wrong _because my experience of debt as a child was A. You are not _right_ because your experience of debt as a child was B.

Onwards...


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'm not _wrong _because my experience of debt as a child was A. You are not _right_ because your experience of debt as a child was B.
> 
> Onwards...



That's actually my experience as an adult, I was cut off from any family help, even to finish my A-levels by my evil cow of a mum, so my position is purely as that coming from a working adult in the UK that can no longer find work at all, not even to help me though my degree.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> By the very fact that people from better off families will more than likely have benefited from debt, they are more likely to see it as a viable option. The way things are being set up it is just one more way to oppress people.


The first sentence is my point. But then you go all perjorative again....


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

Nope. You haven't understood a word I've said, have you? Why are different people's experiences of debt different? What ought that to tell you about how you should look at debt? How have different people's ideas about individual debt and whether or not it ought to be avoided been shaped by their experiences of poverty, for instance? What ought that to tell you about what this kind of change will do wrt poverty and people's chances of escaping it?


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> The first sentence is my point. But then you go all perjorative again....


 
Clueless. You don't even understand your own point.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nope. You haven't understood a word I've said, have you? Why are different people's experiences of debt different? What ought that to tell you about how you should look at debt? How have different people's ideas about individual debt and whether or not it ought to be avoided been shaped by their experiences of poverty, for instance? What ought that to tell you about what this kind of change will do wrt poverty and people's chances of escaping it?


 This is trite bollocks again.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

As I said. Clueless.

Whatever it is, it is not trite.

You don't even understand how you've embraced the assumptions and worldview the tories want you to have.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> This is trite bollocks again.


 
Shut it posho!


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

I think you'll find that's the hand-wringing bleedin heart in the corner.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

Tory fool.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I think you'll find that's the hand-wringing bleedin heart in the corner.


 
I try to keep one, as a pet, y'know....it scares the rats you see....


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

stuff_it - fwiw, there are two aspects of the student debt issue I find problematic:

1) The complete absence from all discussion (by the political class and media) of the residual and largely emotional dimension (all the way from an impoverished childhood) to debt as a concept, never mind educational debt – I assume that absence is because, like littlebabyjesus, it wouldn’t occur to them if you shat on their heads and wrote ‘ignorant cunt’ with a shitty stick across their foreheads, and
2) The determination of hand-wringing bleedin’ hearts – and Labour – to accentuate the total debt so as compound ignorance and make it even tougher to overcome the natural inclination among many from poor backgrounds to avoid debt and avoid education

So.. imo the issue needs to be undemonised (sci), for the hysteria to not be fed by fools as witnessed here and for the centre left (and beyond) to act responsibly,  to not accentuate total debt because it suits their own political ends. They’re tapping into latent fear for their own party political ends.

If people understand it in terms of £30 a month (when you’re earning £25,000), relate it to the real world as per gym memberships and Sky tV contracts, it’s something you can begin to get your head around.  Instead, they’re currently being manipulated by the people who are supposed to represent their interests.

Anyway, good luck and onwards…


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

Ah, sorry, my mistake. You're not a tory. You're a libdem.

It's the fault of those that oppose fees that people are put off by fees?


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

(1) I spent my entire childhood expecting I could attend any university I chose.

(2) My personal experience of career progression/higher education has been the very real life experience if life kicking me in the teeth, and again when I am down. 

I would never get a sky membership or sign up for a gym because I would feel like a massive twat. If I had that sort of money to spend I have plenty of other things to put it towards, mainly to do with owning my own/jointly owning my own engineering firm and owning my own workshop and bit of land. I fail to see how 'owing just £30 a month' helps me? It's not like I've got other contracts for shit, if anything it's the start of the slippery slope for some people....oh, my credit rating is good from paying off my student loan, I may as well borrow for x, y, and z. 

It's a way to keep people properly bound to wage slavery, and get them to leave education with servicing their growing debts foremost in their mind and become good little workers, too worried that the status quo may be disturbed to speak up about anything but the latest mortgage rates or spray tan.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

Oh well. End of discussion I guess.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 4, 2011)

About 11 or 12 years ago I did a bit of market research work in West Belfast. The topic was credit cards - _and every single person said that there was no way on earth they would ever get a credit card, because it was just too dangerous._

Also, the Sky subscription or the gym membership is not a fair analogy: those are both things that can be cancelled if your circumstances change. This is something else - something that could trap you by the balls for life if you let it.


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

Of course it doesn't work as an analogy. It's not supposed to be an _analogy_.

I'd imagine most people will grasp it's a tax.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Of course it doesn't work as an analogy. It's not supposed to be an _analogy_.


 
What is it, then? 

For someone who thinks this isn't about right or wrong, it seems pretty clear that you think people who would worry about their student debts are wrong. You're all over the place.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> stuff_it - fwiw, there are two aspects of the student debt issue I find problematic:
> 
> 1) The complete absence from all discussion (by the political class and media) of the residual and largely emotional dimension (all the way from an impoverished childhood) to debt as a concept, never mind educational debt – I assume that absence is because, like littlebabyjesus, it wouldn’t occur to them if you shat on their heads and wrote ‘ignorant cunt’ with a shitty stick across their foreheads, and
> 2) The determination of hand-wringing bleedin’ hearts – and Labour – to accentuate the total debt so as compound ignorance and make it even tougher to overcome the natural inclination among many from poor backgrounds to avoid debt and avoid education
> ...



As far as I can tell you're both talking about 'emotional' attitudes to debt. Except you're basically going 'people should just get over it.'


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'd imagine most people will grasp it's a tax.


 
Hang on, you said you thought people like me being hysterical were going to make people all fearful. Which is it?

And it isn't a tax. Treating it as if it were a tax is no doubt a good way to stop worrying about it, but it is not a tax. That is simply factually incorrect. It is a debt that will sit there waiting to be paid if you're not paying it, and that will be paid for as long as it hasn't been paid off if you are paying it. 

As circumstances change wrt wages, inflation and other factors, it can become a greater or lesser burden over time. What it does, as stuff it says, is tie people in to being fearful of changes in the status quo. It performs the same social function as the mortgage - it makes workers compliant. At the same time, it divides the workforce into graduates and non-graduates. It reformalises the class system. It sets about destroying much of the good that was won_ by people fighting for it_. 

But hey, I'm just a 'bleeding heart'. Better wise up to the new realities, shouldn't we. Exploit or be exploited.  Individuals set against each other. There is no alternative.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> As far as I can tell you're both talking about 'emotional' attitudes to debt. Except you're basically going 'people should just get over it.'


 
I would put it down to emotional attitudes, what will come. The govt has just made it one hell of a lot easier for the 'common folk' (as they see it) to get in it right up to their eyeballs, regardless of credit rating, future likeliness of jobs in whatever field, etc. 

Tories: it's a traaaa....


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## London_Calling (Aug 4, 2011)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> As far as I can tell you're both talking about 'emotional' attitudes to debt. Except you're basically going 'people should just get over it.'


 I'm not telling anyone what they should do.  Labour shouts about total debt incurred and how impossible it  is (and by so doing influencing peoples' decisions) - when they will do nothing about it when elected, and ditto  hysterics like lbj who does the same because he thinks that's what hand-wringers should do.

People need better information, not to be manipulated for short term political gain.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> People need better information, not to be manipulated for short term political gain.


 
+1

Sadly, I can also add 'now who's living in a fantasy world'


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

These long-term cuts have been brought in under cover of a (largely fictitious) short-term crisis. WTF are you talking about?


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> These long-term cuts have been brought in under cover of a (largely fictitious) short-term crisis. WTF are you talking about?


 
Not totally the point. There is an issue of 'professionalisation' of non-professional jobs so that they now need a quialification (such as an underpaid apprenticeship) or a degree, where they never did before. And yes it does look a bit like a long term plan to disparage and denigrate a large proportion of people, many without them immediately realising it. This doesn't mean that better information wouldn't help them.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 4, 2011)

Where did I say different? I was responding to lc's extraordinary claim that those who oppose fees (me included, it would seem) are trying to manipulate people for short-term political gain.

That is as ludicrous a political point as I've ever seen on here.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 4, 2011)

What might be the real motive behind the vast expansion of debt in the sphere of education? 



> 1. Student-Loan Debt. Large debt—and the fear it creates—is a pacifying force. There was no tuition at the City University of New York when I attended one of its colleges in the 1970s, a time when tuition at many U.S. public universities was so affordable that it was easy to get a B.A. and even a graduate degree without accruing any student-loan debt. While those days are gone in the United States, public universities continue to be free in the Arab world and are either free or with very low fees in many countries throughout the world. The millions of young Iranians who risked getting shot to protest their disputed 2009 presidential election, the millions of young Egyptians who risked their lives earlier this year to eliminate Mubarak, and the millions of young Americans who demonstrated against the Vietnam War all had in common the absence of pacifying huge student-loan debt.


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## stuff_it (Aug 4, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> What might be the real motive behind the vast expansion of debt in the sphere of education?


 
I may have mentioned this already.


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## Idris2002 (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Of course it doesn't work as an analogy. It's not supposed to be an _analogy_.
> 
> I'd imagine most people will grasp it's a tax.


 
Is this what Joe Strummer died for?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I'm not _wrong _because my experience of debt as a child was A. You are not _right_ because your experience of debt as a child was B.
> 
> Onwards...


 
That's hardly the same as you declaring that "There's not a right or wrong, just perspectives".

There either are "rights" and "wrongs" for you to "be" or not "be", or there's nothing, however much you trim your sails.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> This is trite bollocks again.


 
How is referring to the unfortunate fact that some people are more debt-averse than others "trite bollocks"?

I expect that next you'll be saying that the class divide as it pertains to debt-averseness is "trite bollocks" too.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Of course it doesn't work as an analogy. It's not supposed to be an _analogy_.



Then why deploy them as comparators?

Stupidity?


----------



## Hollis (Aug 4, 2011)

I don't quite get your argument London Calling - on the one hand your questioning our attitude to debt, on the other your saying its £30 a month.

With a gym membership you're paying £30 a month for a service.  With a mortage your paying £x amount per month, but you have the security of an asset.  With a degree your putting yourself in debt with no certainty that it will improve your 'prospects' especially as a mature student.

Either way, the net effect of it all is going to be to discourage people because of the probable cost.  Also the OU has high drop out rates, which could mean that its seen as a waste of resources, but I think that's an essential by-product of the benefits in terms of skills etc for those who succeed in it.  Just like company failure is an essential part of free-market capitalism.. 

All-in-all the OU provided an opportunity for people to try out higher education - even if they didn't end of with a degree.  With £2,500 for a 60 unit course that's been taken away.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Aug 5, 2011)

Damn, this changes things somewhat.



> Also the OU has high drop out rates,


Quite, it takes 6-9 years to do a degree during which you have to hold down a family and job. The margins of spare time are very thin and the possibilities of change in circumstances quite high. It definently stacks up the risk vs reward


----------



## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2011)

calm the fuck down guys, there is still scope for rewarding auto didactic study using your a libra....cunts


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## London_Calling (Aug 5, 2011)

Hollis said:


> I don't quite get your argument London Calling.


 
What I’m mostly saying is that in the media debate between commentators and the political class, the strong emotional component in *debt* as a notion, a concept, is not recognised. Most commentators and politicians wouldn’t have experienced debt collectors knocking, repossession or relationships breaking up under financial strain so it’s not surprising that – imo -  the crucial, hugely influential (and visceral)  emotional argument is absent from the debate. 

Of course it’s not just the potential student who has experienced what debt can mean, their (family) advisors will have obv. had the same experiences (in contrast, experiences of debt among the political class will have been positive and enabling – equity gains through mortgages, enabling loans, the convenience of credit cards, money borrowed for safe investments, etc.)

Thus, when Labour screams about £30,000!!1!, some people immediately recoil on an emotional level, and any rational argument is already lost – as is that persons potential academic future.

It seems to me to be more constructive to accept little of this system would change with a change of Government – it was after all New Labour who commissioned the Browne Report – and instead offer those same people something other than self-serving, manufactured political hysteria. In particular, constructive  tools with which to begin to get their heads around the real educational deal.

And so, for me, the question becomes how do you help people and their families weigh this educational debt/tax/liability – it’s not the point here – against a collective family experience that’s emotionally-based, visceral and entirely negative…obv. my answer begins by not emphasising £30,000 (!!!!) at every opportunity. Surely looking at £30.00 a month when on £25,000 a year is more helpful…

I’m no expert in money management or communicating with yoof and, accepting that, why not ease the spectre of debt collectors coming knocking with real-world costs (yes, like gym membership and Sky tv – in my limited exposure to teenagers it’s seems stuff they can at least ‘connect’ with). There is no direct metaphor of which I’m aware, there is no appropriate comparison – but this media/political focus emphasis on £30,000!!1! is entirely disenabling: Labour is feeding fear to suit its own ends.

I’m sure professionals can find better tools than my suggestions…I suppose I just hate the self-serving destructive nature of the debate as it’s currently framed.

That's it. Merry Christmas.


----------



## stuff_it (Aug 5, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> What I’m mostly saying is that in the media debate between commentators and the political class, the strong emotional component in *debt* as a notion, a concept, is not recognised. Most commentators and politicians wouldn’t have experienced debt collectors knocking, repossession or relationships breaking up under financial strain so it’s not surprising that – imo -  the crucial, hugely influential (and visceral)  emotional argument is absent from the debate.
> 
> Of course it’s not just the potential student who has experienced what debt can mean, their (family) advisors will have obv. had the same experiences (in contrast, experiences of debt among the political class will have been positive and enabling – equity gains through mortgages, enabling loans, the convenience of credit cards, money borrowed for safe investments, etc.)
> 
> ...


 
At 33 I was a spring chicken on the OU summer school I attended, and I'm not sure why you are banging on about collective familial experience of debt (I have none, my family has credit cards to get the 'rewards' and stuff you get by paying it off each month - it's a shame they are all mental and have steadfastedly refused to help me much with education over the years), and all this younguns shit is starting to piss me off, the vast majority of OU students are over 25 and have jobs, families of their own, etc.


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## London_Calling (Aug 5, 2011)

Well lets call the whole thing off.


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## stuff_it (Aug 5, 2011)

<sings>

*better call the whole thing off*

*boom-tish*


----------



## Steel Icarus (Aug 5, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> At 33 I was a spring chicken on the OU summer school I attended, and I'm not sure why you are banging on about collective familial experience of debt (I have none, my family has credit cards to get the 'rewards' and stuff you get by paying it off each month - it's a shame they are all mental and have steadfastedly refused to help me much with education over the years), and all this younguns shit is starting to piss me off, the vast majority of OU students are over 25 and have jobs, families of their own, etc.



Aye. So far on my two modules there have only been 4 or 5 people younger than me, out of maybe 30 people, and I'm 40.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 5, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> That's it. Merry Christmas.


 
That's not an argument. It is a whinge. You are also talking as if you think other people are entirely stupid.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 5, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's not an argument. It is a whinge. You are also talking as if you think other people are entirely stupid.


 
tbf, so are you. and that's never been a way to win an argument


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 5, 2011)

Show me where I'm talking as if other people are entirely stupid, then. I don't mean other posters on this thread that I've lost patience with. I mean people in general. Because that is what l_c is doing. 

You can't 'win' an argument with l_c on this anyway. He doesn't engage with any argument.

I've been pretty damn restrained given what he's been calling me, btw. Have you actually read the thread, Crispy?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 5, 2011)

There is nothing "to win" here? I'm only putting out there a perspective that I haven't seen expressed either here or in the mainstream debate.

Anything you have to say I can pull off Miliband's web site.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Aug 5, 2011)

I've never read Milliband's website, but given that Labour introduced tuition fees in the first place and have been engaged in exactly the same attack on the principle of universal provision, I very much doubt that's true. 

Can you quote me something from the Labour website about how our universities have been stolen from us, perhaps?

Show me something I've said next to something Milliband says. Let's see if I'm just a New Labour stooge, shall we?


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## London_Calling (Aug 5, 2011)

Just go away and flagellate outside a Sure Start centre or something.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 5, 2011)

Right, so that was just a piece of bullshit, then? What else have you said on this thread that's bullshit?


----------



## fractionMan (Aug 5, 2011)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not sure what you mean by that. To me there is a clear wrong - the way that charging such enormous fees turns inequality into a moral good. You should expect to be paid more - a lot more - if you've had to put yourself into huge debt to qualify for a particular job. These changes will accelerate the process of increasing inequality. The whole way of looking at education as something to be bought and sold in a marketplace is horrible. In that sense, your perspective of 'investment' is my perspective of extortion - that which was given by right we must now buy. University education has been stolen from us.


 
this


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## _angel_ (Aug 5, 2011)

A student loan debt is not the same as a sky subscription or a gym subscription, both of which can be cancelled at any time. It's not even a tax, it's a debt. A debt, that incidentally can't be wiped out, like every other debt, by going bankcrupt. It's like another mortgage, one you can never be rid of even if you never earn enough to pay it back.
The student loans company are not renowned for being easy to deal with. If you are self employed or have a fluctuating income, then God help you really in dealing with them. Do you really want that hassle in your life, is the question I think a lot of people will be asking themselves. That's even _before_ the prices trebled/ quadrupled.


----------



## Dowie (Aug 8, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> 'To help you fund your study costs you may be eligible for a government-backed student loan, which means you won’t have to pay your fees upfront. You’ll only begin to repay the loan after three years, and only if you are earning more than £21,000.
> *To qualify you’ll need to study at a pace that’s equivalent to at least 25 per cent of a full-time student*, for example an OU course worth 30 credits. *And you’ll need to be studying for an undergraduate qualification that’s higher than any you already have*.'
> 
> So career-changers with a first degree already aren't eligible for loans. Massive oversight imo.



They're already screwed at the moment  and have been for a couple of years - under the current system of tuition being subsidised you're not eligible if you want to study for a qualification at the same level as a qualification you already hold.

Tis a really shitty decision - I can't see too many people will want to shell out 5k for books in the post and a weekly tutorial.


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## newme (Aug 8, 2011)

Thing in the paper today, graduates starting on 40k salary will take 24 years to pay back fees. Those on £30k will get to the 30 year point where the debt is cancelled without having paid it off.


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## fractionMan (Aug 8, 2011)

graduates that start on 40k.  LOL.


----------



## newme (Aug 8, 2011)

fractionMan said:


> graduates that start on 40k. LOL.



And not only start at 40k, but continue to get that uninterrupted for 24 years. Sufficiently fictional.


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## Prince Rhyus (Aug 27, 2011)

I'm still fuming at this decision - everyone gets screwed over by this because:
1) This is a MASSIVE hike across the board - I'd like to see the full figures on what the state is pulling out that merits this hike in fees
2) As we are no longer in a 'jobs for life' economy/society, we inevitably have to train and retrain. This burden of training has shifted from employers and the state (via taxation) to individual people. It fucking stinks
3) Labour and the Tories bottled the whole fees issue hiding behind a 'review' that they put less than £70,000 into the research pot for when it came to the general election. Lib Dems ... we know what they did.

NO political party or politician has a mandate for fees rise. The last hope for many would be students has just been annihilated.


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## quimcunx (Aug 27, 2011)

Is this starting this year or next?   And if it's next is there still time to enrol in something for September?


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## stuff_it (Aug 27, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Is this starting this year or next? And if it's next is there still time to enrol in something for September?


Next year. You would have to ask them if there was still time.


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## heinous seamus (Aug 27, 2011)

It's still £700 for a level one 60 point course, and you can enroll until about the 8th of September


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## quimcunx (Aug 27, 2011)

Cheers, both.


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## littlebabyjesus (Aug 27, 2011)

Whayougonnado?

/nosy


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## quimcunx (Aug 27, 2011)

No idea.  I did an introduction to Social Sciences a good few years back, think it was just 30 points.  I'll have a nosy and see if there is anything I fancy.


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## Throbbing Angel (Aug 28, 2011)

heinous seamus said:


> It's still £700 for a level one 60 point course, and you can enroll until about the 8th of September


 
hmmm, might give it a look - thanks for that


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## hegley (Aug 28, 2011)

heinous seamus said:


> It's still £700 for a level one 60 point course, and you can enroll until about the 8th of September


The date's passed to get financial support though so you'd have to pay the full 700.


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## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2011)

I don't think I would have been entitled anyway.

Their site is confusing me a bit just now.   Maybe I'm not clever enough.      Or I should read it properly rather than scanning it while posting and watching telly.


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 28, 2011)

As far as I understand it, it's easy enough: sign up now for a 10-point course (they are well easy, honest, just some reading and an assignment or multiple-choice test), for about £140 I think (last I looked). If you register for a degree qualification either when you register for the 10-point course or during the course (before the cut-off deadline), you'll count as a 'current' student and therefore if you decide to go ahead and do a degree in the next few years, you won't be charged. (edit: charged the new fee structure, I mean - obvs you'd still pay the old fee structure).

In other words, IF YOU'RE AT ALL LIKELY TO CONSIDER DOING A DEGREE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, SIGN UP TO ANY SHORT OU COURSE AT ALL RIGHT NOW.

You can always change your degree specialism once you're on that road. But (as far as I understand it) signing up for a short course NOW and registering as a degree student as a result is the best way to safeguard your financial/economic/academic interests.

Correct me if I'm wrong - anyone?


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 28, 2011)

hegley said:


> The date's passed to get financial support though so you'd have to pay the full 700.



You don't have to sign up for a 60-pointer though.
Sign up for a 10-pointer AND REGISTER FOR A DEGREE.

Edit:
*When is the final date I can apply for a module before the higher fees in 2012/13 come in?*
To be eligible for the terms the OU is offering its current students in England, you will need to have studied in 2011/12.
http://www3.open.ac.uk/contact/faq.aspx?t=S&cat=1-BCU91D&par=1-BC803F

Therefore presumably you do need to register now, not by next year.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> As far as I understand it, it's easy enough: sign up now for a 10-point course (they are well easy, honest, just some reading and an assignment or multiple-choice test), for about £140 I think (last I looked). If you register for a degree qualification either when you register for the 10-point course or during the course (before the cut-off deadline), you'll count as a 'current' student and therefore if you decide to go ahead and do a degree in the next few years, you won't be charged.
> 
> In other words, IF YOU'RE AT ALL LIKELY TO CONSIDER DOING A DEGREE IN THE NEXT FEW YEARS, SIGN UP TO ANY SHORT OU COURSE AT ALL RIGHT NOW.
> 
> ...



Hm. Interesting. So I sign up for any old course, register for a degree*, and if I take 6 years or whatever to complete a degree I get it all on current fee framework?

*what do I do to register for a degree? Is there a tick box?

I might do a 30 pointer.


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 28, 2011)

Yes, there is a tick box. literally.
You pick a short course, you go to the payment page, there is a tickbox saying 'do you want to count this course towards a qualification?' and you tick 'yes' and then select from the menu which course. Summat like that, vaguely, from memory.

The OU regional centres are VERY good, btw - you're London, right? The Camden one is reet good, and supportive. And *they have all the course textbooks in, for each course*, afaik. Worth knowing for anyone who wants to check out the course materials before signing up.

Edit: As is probably obvious, I have an OU degree. If anyone wants to know anything specific, PM me. I did earth sciences btw. One of the best geology departments in the country.  OU rocks (lol  ).

Edit again: If in doubt, just select the 'OU Open' degree. It basically means that you've got 360 points (enough for a degree) without having a particular specialism. If you choose to specialise in a particular subject, you can always switch onto that course by simply doing the relevant core courses. If that makes sense.


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## hegley (Aug 28, 2011)

I'm signed up to start DD101 Intro to social sciences in October; plan to have degree by the time I'm 50. Better late than never I guess.


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## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2011)

hegley said:


> I'm signed up to start DD101 Intro to social sciences in October; plan to have degree by the time I'm 50. Better late than never I guess.



That's the one I did. I'll sell you my essay on transglobalisation for £200.  98%   At the time I did feb to oct and if you could do normal term years I didn't know it.  I resented giving up my summer sundays to studying (because I didn't do a little bit every night ) so didn't take it further...


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## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Yes, there is a tick box. literally.
> You pick a short course, you go to the payment page, there is a tickbox saying 'do you want to count this course towards a qualification?' and you tick 'yes' and then select from the menu which course. Summat like that, vaguely, from memory.
> 
> The OU regional centres are VERY good, btw - you're London, right? The Camden one is reet good, and supportive. And *they have all the course textbooks in, for each course*, afaik. Worth knowing for anyone who wants to check out the course materials before signing up.
> ...



I ended up at Hammersmith for some convoluted reason.  Bit of a pain to get to from Green Park, and hassle to get home to Brixton from.


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 28, 2011)

You mean for tutorials?
Mine were at the LSE.


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## quimcunx (Aug 28, 2011)

Yep.  I think I signed up for somewhere else but got a letter saying it wasn't possible and they were dividing the people who couldn't be accommodated there around other places, oh, and sorry if it's not as convenient as you might like, we did our best and that, soz.  IIRC.

So if your tutorials were at LSE, what was at Camden?


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 29, 2011)

Camden is the regional centre. It's for the whole OU. They have OU staff there, they can advise you on joining up and courses and stuff, and they have all the books for all the courses.

LSE was just room-rental, for the individual tutor's sessions.

Camden is the actual OU premises, where the admin staff are (eg. if you need to sort out paperwork and bureaucracy, etc), and where you can check out courses if you're interested in joining up.

Does that make sense? I'm a little pinot-noir'ed-out 

Edit: I know of people on my course who lived in, for example, Nottingham and had tutorials in places as far-flung as Birmingham. Being in London is a benefit in that regard, at least you get somewhere vaguely reachable (although my oceanography tutorials were in Croydon  ).

Edit again: And I know that one tutor was commuting from Ireland to do tutorials in England  The whole issue of OU's tutorship structure is a whole nother issue. But for getting a degree, and the quality of tutorship and course materials, I'd say it's well worth it.


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## quimcunx (Aug 29, 2011)

ah, right. London=Camden. That does make sense, cheers.

just have to choose something and pay for it now, remembering to tick the box.


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## zenie (Aug 29, 2011)

It says date passed for financial assistance for September, has anyone found this rule bendable?


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 29, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> That's the one I did. I'll sell you my essay on transglobalisation for £200. 98%  At the time I did feb to oct and if you could do normal term years I didn't know it. I resented giving up my summer sundays to studying (because I didn't do a little bit every night ) so didn't take it further...



If you've already done an OU course, is it counted towards a degree qualification? If not (and you passed it), then why not just go onto the OU website and put those credits towards a degree course? Then you'd be on the way already.


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## quimcunx (Aug 29, 2011)

Might be. It was a long time ago.  I had seen something about that and was intending on notifying them.   I've got my stuff somewhere still.  I guess I should dig them out.  30 pointer IIRC.


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## temper_tantrum (Aug 29, 2011)

BTW - re: terms - I think they've recently cut down the length of their courses, to fit two 'rounds' of each course into each year. So rather than being 9 months, they're 6 months each. I know they've done that in science, anyway.
So they used to run Feb-Oct (i agree, Quimcunx, very annoying in terms of enjoying the long summer days  ), and now they do two courses a year.

Edit: If you've already done a course, even if it was ages ago, you retain your original registration details. So there was a guy on my course who had first registered in the mid-1980s, and had some kinda really great easy-to-remember registration code, compared to all us newbies with our complicated personal ID codes 
So you'll have bragging rights with your registration code


----------



## hegley (Aug 29, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Might be. It was a long time ago. I had seen something about that and was intending on notifying them. I've got my stuff somewhere still. I guess I should dig them out. 30 pointer IIRC.


If it was a 30 pointer soc sci it was probably either DD131 or DD132; DD101 is a 60 pointer and runs Oct to Jun (or Jan to Oct).


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## emanymton (Aug 29, 2011)

hegley said:


> If it was a 30 pointer soc sci it was probably either DD131 or DD132; DD101 is a 60 pointer and runs Oct to Jun (or Jan to Oct).



Just found out that I can't post on the new boards using my netbook, one more reason why I don't like the change.

Anyway. having booted up the laptop I have a question about financial support. I have just finished my OU degree and due to my shit salary never paid a single penny in fees. Under the new scheme is it still possible for the very low paid to pay nothing, or do they just pay a few hundred quid less, or as that style of support gone altogether?

I assume the answer must be in all the documents somewhere but after a quick glance I can't see it.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2011)

emanymton said:


> Just found out that I can't post on the new boards using my netbook, one more reason why I don't like the change.
> 
> Anyway. having booted up the laptop I have a question about financial support. I have just finished my OU degree and due to my shit salary never paid a single penny in fees. Under the new scheme is it still possible for the very low paid to pay nothing, or do they just pay a few hundred quid less, or as that style of support gone altogether?
> 
> I assume the answer must be in all the documents somewhere but after a quick glance I can't see it.



You can't get financial assistance (or loans) for a second bachelor's degree. You have to cough the full whack up.

I'm not sure about post-grad, but then postgrad fees don't appear to have been affected (yet).


----------



## emanymton (Aug 29, 2011)

I mean for a firsts degree, could someone on the same pay as me still do an OU degree for free like I have?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 29, 2011)

If they start now, then yes, if not.

See http://www8.open.ac.uk/study/explained/fees-2012 for a better explanation.


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## quimcunx (Aug 29, 2011)

hegley said:


> If it was a 30 pointer soc sci it was probably either DD131 or DD132; DD101 is a 60 pointer and runs Oct to Jun (or Jan to Oct).



It was DD100.  Completed in Oct 2003 

After fishing out my stuff for DD100 I found a booklet giving advice on what to choose next. Out of about 20 courses discussed I've narrowed it down to about 18 that I'm interested in doing.   This may have contributed to my reasons for not picking up another course at the time.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 30, 2011)

zenie said:


> It says date passed for financial assistance for September, has anyone found this rule bendable?



Not much use for you if you're looking at a specific course but in my meandering all over the fucking shop on there I see some things start a bit later and the deadline for financial assistance for those hasn't passed yet.


----------



## hegley (Aug 30, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> It was DD100.  Completed in Oct 2003
> 
> After fishing out my stuff for DD100 I found a booklet giving advice on what to choose next. Out of about 20 courses discussed I've narrowed it down to about 18 that I'm interested in doing.  This may have contributed to my reasons for not picking up another course at the time.


Sure it was only a 30-pointer? DD100 became DD101 - so you might already have 60 points under your belt!


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## quimcunx (Aug 30, 2011)

Not sure at all but haven't been able to find anything saying yet.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Not sure at all but haven't been able to find anything saying yet.



Do you know your OU Personal Identifier (PI) number?

If so, ring the general inquiries line at Milton Keynes on 0845 300 60 90 (mon-fri 08.00-20.00), and ask them to check for you how many points you were awarded for your course.


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## quimcunx (Aug 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Do you know your OU Personal Identifier (PI) number?
> 
> If so, ring the general inquiries line at Milton Keynes on 0845 300 60 90 (mon-fri 08.00-20.00), and ask them to check for you how many points you were awarded for your course.



Thank you. Yes. But they weren't open last night.  It won't make much difference to what course I decide to do though. Choosing a course is the big job.

I'm currently reading my 8 year old leaflet, ''what course to choose after DD100''.

Have I mentioned I got 98% for my transglobalisation essay?


----------



## hegley (Aug 30, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Have I mentioned I got 98% for my transglobalisation essay?



lol. Well done.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Thank you. Yes. But they weren't open last night.  It won't make much difference to what course I decide to do though. Choosing a course is the big job.
> 
> I'm currently reading my 8 year old leaflet, ''what course to choose after DD100''.



Probably best to read the available courses on the website, 'cos I can think of at least half a dozen OU courses that have been superceded over the last 8 years.



> Have I mentioned I got 98% for my transglobalisation essay?



Only 98%? I'm disappointed.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Probably best to read the available courses on the website, 'cos I can think of at least half a dozen OU courses that have been superceded over the last 8 years.
> 
> Only 98%? I'm disappointed.



Including DD100, but I find it much easier to read the booklet as a starting point. Most will have an equivalent. On the website I was wandering off all over the shop.  This way I can score things off and circle things.  bookmarks aren't the same.   

Sorry to disappoint.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Aug 30, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Including DD100, but I find it much easier to read the booklet as a starting point. Most will have an equivalent. On the website I was wandering off all over the shop. This way I can score things off and circle things. bookmarks aren't the same.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint.



You didn't, really. OU marking standards are tough, reputedly tougher than those of the "elite" universities, so you must have turned in a truly exceptional piece of work. Well done to you for getting a mark that less than 1% of OU students ever attain!


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## quimcunx (Aug 30, 2011)

I know.  I know you're just a big ole grumpy meany.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 31, 2011)

I managed to get on the OU this year thank god, if I keep at my degree for the full 6 years then it looks like I will avoid the higher fees.I took out an OUBSA loan to pay the first module off monthly as I do it.

The changes are shite and no surprise, the OU like the NHS was a true success of postwar social democracy and could not be allowed to continue.


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 31, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I managed to get on the OU this year thank god, if I keep at my degree for the full 6 years then it looks like I will avoid the higher fees.I took out an OUBSA loan to pay the first module off monthly as I do it.
> 
> The changes are shite and no surprise, the OU like the NHS was a true success of postwar social democracy and could not be allowed to continue.



Quite. Labour had already shafted students who were looking to use the OU to get new quals in a different subject, by removing *any* financial assistance to them, and this was the logical next step for the neo-liberalisation of tertiary education - make it entirely about who can pay, rather than about desert.
And yeah, I know that people will make the argument that you might never have to repay any loans because your earnings might not reach the repayment level,  but that doesn't help those people who are debt-averse.


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## quimcunx (Aug 31, 2011)

Urk. So I went through my DD100 ( 60 points) what to choose next booklet trying to narrow down my choices. Please note I did DD100 (intro to social sciences) about 8 years ago.... I want to keep things quite broad and open just now at least.

I finally decided I would do DSE212 Exploring psychology which it is perfectly fine to do after DD100, without a level 1 psychology, Started registering for that then decided to look at what level 1 psychology courses there were and now I'm wondering whether to do DSE141: Discovering Psychology, 30 points. Partly because it's been so long since DD100 a more gradual approach might be better.

Of course now I'm thinking if I do that I could look for another 30 point course in one of the other areas I shortlisted... which means more rummaging around the website.

Bleurgh.


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## quimcunx (Aug 31, 2011)

Too late.  I'm pressing GO for payment for the DSE212.

*bites fingernails*


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## baldrick (Aug 31, 2011)

Just do a 60 point course. you'll be fannying about for years with 30 point ones otherwise. also if you've done degree level before (i don't know if you have?) you'll be fine going in to level 2/3 and don't worry about doing intro courses either. they're more for the nervous types.

i had a break of 5 years and went straight to level 3 and i got a 2:1. similarish subject area to what i did before, but i don't think you need to be gentle with yourself unless you're *really* unsure.

Edit: too late! heh.  think you had the right idea going for level 2 tho.


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## quimcunx (Aug 31, 2011)

Done.  Just got to wait for confirmation now.


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## hegley (Aug 31, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Too late. I'm pressing GO for payment for the DSE212.
> 
> *bites fingernails*


Plenty of people doing DSE212 in this group https://www.facebook.com/groups/167933499935803/ and lots of other info there too. Good luck!


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## baldrick (Aug 31, 2011)

the facebook group for the course i'm just about to finish has been invaluable.


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## quimcunx (Aug 31, 2011)

I've joined.  Cheers.


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## quimcunx (Aug 31, 2011)

I hope you are looking forward to my newly found partial knowledge on every nobbin and sobbin thread on here.


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## BlueSquareThing (Sep 3, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Urk. So I went through my DD100 ( 60 points) what to choose next booklet trying to narrow down my choices. Please note I did DD100 (intro to social sciences) about 8 years ago.... I want to keep things quite broad and open just now at least.



Sorry, haven't seen this in the thread at all, but you might already have answered this question: is your DD100 still valid? There's a rule that courses will only last a length of time after their last presentation, so, depending on if (whether) DD100 was decommissioned, it may stop being valid at some point in the future. Does that make sense?

Advice I was given, is to link any course you're doing to some form of qualification - *and* to link to an Open Degree. Anything can count for an Open Degree, and new courses will only be cheap if:
* they're linked to a qualification you started before the end of this new academic year
* you do one every year

So linking to an Open Degree will allow people to do anything they want and get it at current sorts of prices for the 5/6 years. You can, iirc, only link a course to two degrees, one of which has to be the Open Degree. I think - that's how it seems to be working for me anyway.

I'm not entirely certain if just a 10 pointer would count actually.


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## quimcunx (Sep 3, 2011)

BlueSquareThing said:


> Sorry, haven't seen this in the thread at all, but you might already have answered this question: is your DD100 still valid? There's a rule that courses will only last a length of time after their last presentation, so, depending on if (whether) DD100 was decommissioned, it may stop being valid at some point in the future. Does that make sense?



Just checked.  I have linked to doing a BA/BSc and Open degree.  And my previous course does count towards it.  Win.


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## stuff_it (Sep 3, 2011)

BlueSquareThing said:


> Sorry, haven't seen this in the thread at all, but you might already have answered this question: is your DD100 still valid? There's a rule that courses will only last a length of time after their last presentation, so, depending on if (whether) DD100 was decommissioned, it may stop being valid at some point in the future. Does that make sense?
> 
> Advice I was given, is to link any course you're doing to some form of qualification - *and* to link to an Open Degree. Anything can count for an Open Degree, and new courses will only be cheap if:
> * they're linked to a qualification you started before the end of this new academic year
> ...


I don't think one does have to be an Open Degree, I had mine linked to engineering and natural science for ages.


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## BlueSquareThing (Sep 3, 2011)

stuff_it said:


> I don't think one does have to be an Open Degree, I had mine linked to engineering and natural science for ages.



Could be - I didn't seem to be able to link mine to more than one named degree at any point over the last couple of years, but I was prolly trying to link them to two similar degrees within the same school or something, which it might not have liked.

Worth linking to an Open anyway, just in case the desire to study something odd comes up imo.


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## BlueSquareThing (Sep 3, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Just checked. I have linked to doing a BA/BSc and Open degree. And my previous course does count towards it. Win.



Bonus


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 3, 2011)

BlueSquareThing said:


> So linking to an Open Degree will allow people to do anything they want and get it at current sorts of prices for the 5/6 years. You can, iirc, only link a course to two degrees, one of which has to be the Open Degree. I think - that's how it seems to be working for me anyway.



You can only link a course to two *awards*, not two degrees. So, you can link your course to your degree *and* a diploma, and come out of the end of your study (theoretically) with a couple of OU diplomas as well as your OU degree.


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## temper_tantrum (Sep 3, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You didn't, really. OU marking standards are tough, reputedly tougher than those of the "elite" universities, so you must have turned in a truly exceptional piece of work. Well done to you for getting a mark that less than 1% of OU students ever attain!



This is definitely true. OU distinction = 85%. Distinction on my postgrad course (redbrick uni) = 70%.

Edit: Sounds as though everyone is sorted, in terms of decisions about courses? If anyone has any more queries, I'd be glad to help if I can. (Feel free to PM if you like).
GOOD LUCK on whatever courses you sign up to, everyone 

Edit again: Re: what course/subject to pick - in my experience, the OU are very flexible about letting you switch once you're signed up. So if in doubt and under time pressure, my advice would be to sign up for something, and then look to switch later if necessary. Applies to individual courses as much as degrees. Better to register for something and count for the current student status, rather than delay and risk falling into the new fees category. In my opinion, anyway.


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## strung out (Sep 3, 2011)

an 85% at the OU is about equivalent to 70% at a standard uni though. just because the number is higher doesn't mean it's harder to get, it just means that the standard unis grading systems are shit because they barely use the top 20% of marks.


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## stupid kid (Sep 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> That's also interesting; many would see it as an_ investment_ rather than "walking into debt". There's not a right or wrong, just perspectives...
> 
> Obv. on min wage - and almost double min wage, you don't have to worry about repayments.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, well, the argument you're proposing seems to boil down to "Yes, the fees are going up, but it's ok because the repayment model is being made more equitable". Which seems a reasonable enough argument on the face of it, but what it seems to ignore is that A) This isn't going to save any money over the life of this parliament, and B) the students who enrol on courses in 2012 are going to be paying fuckloads more to learn the same course, from the same tutors, with access to the same materials and workshops.

I'm all for equitable models of fee repayment, I just don't support doubling of the price with no significant increase in the value of the course.


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## stuff_it (Sep 4, 2011)

quimcunx said:


> Including DD100, but I find it much easier to read the booklet as a starting point. Most will have an equivalent. On the website I was wandering off all over the shop. This way I can score things off and circle things. bookmarks aren't the same.
> 
> Sorry to disappoint.


If you feel better 'on paper' you should give them a ring and get them to post you a current brochure. There are lots of new courses as well as ones that have been stopped in the last 8 years. It may be worth speaking to a learning advisor on the phone as well. It would be a shame to miss out doing one of the newer courses if they were more interesting/suitable than some of the ones on the list you have.


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## BlueSquareThing (Sep 4, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> You can only link a course to two *awards*, not two degrees. So, you can link your course to your degree *and* a diploma, and come out of the end of your study (theoretically) with a couple of OU diplomas as well as your OU degree.



Hmm, dunno - I've got stuff counting towards two certs, a diploma and two degrees, so I'm not entirely sure. It may depend upon schools and so on.


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## Throbbing Angel (Sep 6, 2011)

Hmm, I'm off to read all of this thread, but, I'll ask this now in the hope that when I get back here someone might have answered...

I've been thinking of doing something with the OU for ages now. I cocked up my degree halfway through a resit of my 2nd yr and ended up with 160 CAT points of IT/Eng Lit/Film Studies/Women's Studies.

When I re-approached the uni to ask about finishing the degree my Creative Writing tutor said 'Oh, you'd have passed that degree no problem, would you like to do a Masters' (in Creative Writing) - so I did, which I finished (passed with merit) this year.

So, I've always regretted not doing A levels and going on to Uni from school, my parents both left school at 15 and I therefore never heard the word University.  So I left school at 16 with 5 O levels and went to work in bank - hated it and went to night school and got some banking exams, an A level in Psychology, some creative writing diplomas, then started the degree, became ill, cocked it up, dropped out eventually, then did the masters.

I'm not sure what I want to do at the OU - suggestions???   What's a logical progression from what I've already done. Is there any point finishing a BA if I have an MA? Would I have to do an Open degree as I already have a hotch potch of degree units? It seems daft to start a degree from scratch if I have nearly one and a half years worth of credit knocking around, effectively worthless.

What does Urban think?


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## strung out (Sep 6, 2011)

there's a point to doing a BA if you think it's a course you would enjoy and is worth paying X amount of money for. i went back and studied with the OU because i only had two years worth of a degree, so did the final year at the OU to get my BA. qualifications-wise, i doubt there's much point in doing a BA if you already have an MA unless it's going to be in something wildly different.

if you're looking at the next logical step, you could look into doing research at the OU and get a phd, but i've no idea what the prices and time restraints on those might be... http://www3.open.ac.uk/study/research-degrees/english.htm

alternatively, if you're not fussed about career progression etc, then just study whatever looks like fun.


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## temper_tantrum (Sep 6, 2011)

As Strung Out says, TA, what is your aim? Is it to get the qualification, or academic progression, or intellectual interest, or what?
I think the best thing is to work out what you want to do, and then look at how your OU credits could help you in that.


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## London_Calling (Sep 7, 2011)

stupid kid said:


> Ok, well, the argument you're proposing seems to boil down to "Yes, the fees are going up, but it's ok because the repayment model is being made more equitable".


That's certainly part of it, but what has also irritated during the past months is something that's difficult to catch in a phrase; it feels almost like an exploitation (by some in the political class) of the fear of debt - that is the exploitation of people and families whose only experience of debt has been wholly negative and disabling: "£25,000!!1!", etc.

So, aimed at the poor, there has been a nuance-free, very shouty demonisation of debt when, at the same time, huge tranches of society - starting somewhere around the property owning lower middle classes - understand debt can be enabling in some contexts (not least because that has been the experience of their families).

Thus we end up with lots of working class kids quoted as saying "I can't afford to go to Uni" when, as a general proposition, the better view is they can't afford to not go.

And if they don't apply it does, of course, makes access easier for the others.

Obv. the wider context still is the privatisation of education but that's another matter...


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## quimcunx (Oct 2, 2011)

Well my materials were late and then I went on holiday and then it was all sunny and that.  the official start date is 1/10/11 and I'm just going through online materials now.  It's going to take me a week to read up all the stuff  they've sent me _about_ the module never mind start the module.  tra la la.


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