# Basic Welsh . . .



## wiskey (Aug 26, 2006)

go on then - educate me - basic welsh for stupid stoners please


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## cesare (Aug 26, 2006)

Me too please


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## Flagwaver (Aug 26, 2006)

Twp = daft
Bendigedig = tidy
Iawn = orright

etc.


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 26, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> go on then - educate me - basic welsh for stupid stoners please



stupid stoners are not allowed to learn welsh, you must be an upright and severe protestant, or you will fail the test automatically.


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## ddraig (Aug 26, 2006)

only if u pay me in draw init!  

beth ti eisiau gwybod wiskey?

what would u like to know wiskeys?


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## Aldebaran (Aug 26, 2006)

I am really interested...(but what a challenge for Dyslex this looks like... I'm feeling dizzy already) I have no clue about Welsh. Are there grammar books available somewhere?

salaam.


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## Strumpet (Aug 26, 2006)

cynycha bant - fuck off


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## LilMissHissyFit (Aug 26, 2006)

I always thought it was written clych yn bant


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## niclas (Aug 27, 2006)

*13 words to fun*

The beauty of Welsh is it's phonetic - what you see is what you get (once you've clicked that ch, dd, ff, rh, ll are separate letters in the alphabet of course!). Every letter is pronounced, unlike that fiendishly difficult English.

Your starter for ten

Bore da (bore-ay dar) - good morning
Sut wyt ti? (Sit ooit tee?) - How are you?
Mwy o reu? (mooy o rei?) - More dope?
Diolch yn fawr (dee-olch ern vawr) - Thanks very much
Croeso (Croisor) - You're welcome
Hwyl (Hoo-eel) - Ta-ra/see ya/s'long (literally "fun")

If you're stuck, just imagine how Glyn would pronounce it!


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## wiskey (Aug 27, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> beth ti eisiau gwybod wiskey?



i'd like to know the ususal things

may i ahve a cup of coffee
two beers please
where is the station?
where can i buy weed?
have you seen any illegal parties around here?
have you got a rizla? 

etc

and i owe you a few spliffs already mate - just gotta end up in the same place at the same time


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## wiskey (Aug 27, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> (once you've clicked that ch, dd, ff, rh, ll are separate letters in the alphabet of course!). Every letter is pronounced, unlike that fiendishly difficult English.
> 
> If you're stuck, just imagine how Glyn would pronounce it!




how is each pronounced then? and where is it used in langugage. i'm serious about this, my fellow loggist at work is welsh and apart from hedder (ah bollox thats not how its spelled is it ), police anyway, i dont know any. 

and who the fuck is glyn??


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## bonheddwr (Aug 27, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> i'd like to know the ususal things
> 
> may i ahve a cup of coffee
> two beers please
> ...



may i have a cup of coffee - Cwpaned o goffi os gwelwch yn dda.
two beers please - Dau gwrw os gwelwch yn dda
where is the [train] station? - Ble mae'r orsaf drenau?
where can i buy weed? - Ble gallaf i brynu gwair?
have you seen any illegal parties around here? - Wyt ti wedi clywed am bartion anghyfreithlon yn yr ardal?
have you got a rizla? Oes gyda ti rizla?

Or go to the BBC website - http://www.bbc.co.uk/wales/learnwelsh/
And this is also a good source - http://www.omniglot.com/writing/welsh.htm


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## bonheddwr (Aug 27, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> how is each pronounced then? and where is it used in langugage. i'm serious about this, my fellow loggist at work is welsh and apart from hedder (ah bollox thats not how its spelled is it ), police anyway, i dont know any.
> 
> and who the fuck is glyn??



This is a good source on how to pronounce Welsh letters - http://www.madog.org/dysgwyr/gramadeg/gramadeg1.html

ch - a non-English sound as in Scottish "ch" in "loch", e.g., "bach"

dd - "th" (voiced) as in "the" (never the voiceless "th" sound as in "thin, e.g., "bedd"

ff/ph - as in "off", e.g., "ffwl"

ng - as in "long", e.g., "ing"

ll - an aspirated 'l' which does not occur in English, sounded by placing the tongue so as to say 'l' and hissing out of one side of the mouth, e.g., "llan"

rh - an aspirated 'r' which does not occur in English; the difference between 'rh' and 'r' is similar to that betwen 'wh' and 'w' in "when" and "went", e.g., "rhan"

th - as in "thin", e.g., "cath"


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 27, 2006)

some verbs

Rhedeg - run
Cerdded - Walk
Siarad - Talk
Canu - sing
Cysgu - Sleep
Yfed - drink




			
				niclas said:
			
		

> The beauty of Welsh is it's phonetic - what you see is what you get (once you've clicked that ch, dd, ff, rh, ll are separate letters in the alphabet of course!). Every letter is pronounced, unlike that fiendishly difficult English.



This is generally true, for sure - but there is at least one significant exception, being 'y' - which can be pronounced 'uh' or 'ee', as is nicely demonstrated by the word for hospital - ysbyty (uh-sbuh-tee) - though it is usually 'uh'.


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## niclas (Aug 27, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> This is generally true, for sure - but there is at least one significant exception, being 'y' - which can be pronounced 'uh' or 'ee', as is nicely demonstrated by the word for hospital - ysbyty (uh-sbuh-tee) - though it is usually 'uh'.




I was saving that anomaly for later!

Dwi'n dy garu di (dwee'n der gari dee) = I love you


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 27, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I was saving that anomaly for later!



mae'n ddrwg da fi, niclas.


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## felixthecat (Aug 27, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> I was saving that anomaly for later!
> 
> Dwi'n dy garu di (dwee'n der gari dee) = I love you



Thank you. THat could prove useful


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 27, 2006)

Aldebaran said:
			
		

> I am really interested...(but what a challenge for Dyslex this looks like... I'm feeling dizzy already) I have no clue about Welsh. Are there grammar books available somewhere?
> 
> salaam.



lots of good free stuff on the bbc website...


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## joevsimp (Aug 27, 2006)

does the ll in welsh sound like the ll in spanish?


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## Karac (Aug 27, 2006)

joevsimp said:
			
		

> does the ll in welsh sound like the ll in spanish?


Not at all-ll in Welsh sounds like ll-in Spanish it sounds like y


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## bonheddwr (Aug 27, 2006)

I just found this, it is a good way of explaining how to pronounce the letter LL:

Ll is an aspirated L. That means you form your lips and tongue to pronounce L, but then you blow air gently around the sides of the tongue instead of saying anything. Got it? The nearest you can get to this sound in English is to pronounce it as an l with a th in front of it. Welsh words: llan (thlan); llawr (thlour); llwyd (thlooid)


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## max_freakout (Aug 27, 2006)

They are a pretty basic bunch of people arent they  


*scarpers back to drugs forum and hides*


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## ddraig (Aug 28, 2006)

oi max!  ger ad of it!

and ftc - behafiwch, mae fy llygaid arno ti ar meddygwyr


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## neprimerimye (Aug 28, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> stupid stoners are not allowed to learn welsh, you must be an upright and severe protestant, or you will fail the test automatically.



Explain Saunders Lewis in the context of the above.


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 28, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Explain Saunders Lewis in the context of the above.


there are always exceptions, especially when telling ill-conceived jokes... 



> The nearest you can get to this sound in English is to pronounce it as an l with a th in front of it. Welsh words: llan (thlan); llawr (thlour); llwyd (thlooid)



yes, I would almost try to merge the 'TH' into the 'L'


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## niclas (Aug 28, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> and who the fuck is glyn??



Glyn is possibly the greatest living Welsh speaker at the moment, arguably done more than all the quangos in promoting the language among that "hard-to-reach demographic" with his stay in the Big Brother household. Sad but true.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 28, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Glyn is possibly the greatest living Welsh speaker at the moment, arguably done more than all the quangos in promoting the language among that "hard-to-reach demographic" with his stay in the Big Brother household. Sad but true.



Proving that fuckwits speak in many tongues........


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## Brockway (Aug 28, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Glyn is possibly the greatest living Welsh speaker at the moment, arguably done more than all the quangos in promoting the language among that "hard-to-reach demographic" with his stay in the Big Brother household. Sad but true.



What you have to remember about Glyn is that he embodies a particular English stereotype of the Welsh - ie a yokel. His popularity is therefore an endorsement of this stereotype.

Also the country bumpkin who arrives in the city goes through a process of becoming more worldly, even corrupted, before emerging having learned some kind of moral lesson is a strong archetype in English/British culture (eg Pip in Great Expectations). This is what people were tapping into when they watched Glyn.

As for the Welsh language it should be compulsory from the moment we enter infant school. High school is already too late. Three quarters of the world's population is bilingual and most start learning other languages from an early age.


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 29, 2006)

Be fair, he is just a lad - and alot of 18 year olds have a pretty blinkered view of the world. He was clearly a nice guy.

While his endless patriotism was grating, I rather liked the fact that there were young Welsh people out there who had to struggle for English words. Seemed to say something about the revival of 'Yr Iaith'.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> As for the Welsh language it should be compulsory from the moment we enter infant school. High school is already too late. Three quarters of the world's population is bilingual and most start learning other languages from an early age.



Just out of curiosuity where did you fnd the statistic that 75% of the population are bilingual? Or did you just make it up?

More importantly those people who are bilingual tend to learn one or other world language in addition to their own tongues. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh people have a world language as their mother tongue.

Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> More importantly those people who are bilingual tend to learn one or other world language in addition to their own tongues. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh people have a world language as their mother tongue.
> Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.


I agree.
My heart says that the only way that the language can be saved is if people want to learn it, not if they're forced to by teachers/legislators.
That said, only a concerted piece of language planning such as that which resurected Hebrew in Israel will really breathe life back into Welsh. 
Still, that doesn't mean forcing people to learn it, it means creating the colective urge in the population to learn it and use it.
I can't see that happening. My 'Welshness', whatever the fuck it is, is nothing to do with the language.


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Just out of curiosuity where did you fnd the statistic that 75% of the population are bilingual? Or did you just make it up?
> 
> More importantly those people who are bilingual tend to learn one or other world language in addition to their own tongues. Thankfully the vast majority of Welsh people have a world language as their mother tongue.
> 
> Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.



It was on the radio the other day - they were saying that statistically it's unusual to be monoglot. That on the continent it's normal to be bilingual and in Africa, for example, it's common for people to speak a handful of languages. I'm not making it up.

I agree that forcing people to learn another language when they are a teenager or adult is pointless. By that age it's already a daunting prospect. That's why it should be compulsory to start learning Welsh in tandem with English as soon as kids enter school. That way it is a natural process and no different than say learning your times-tables.


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I agree.
> My heart says that the only way that the language can be saved is if people want to learn it, not if they're forced to by teachers/legislators.
> That said, only a concerted piece of language planning such as that which resurected Hebrew in Israel will really breathe life back into Welsh.
> Still, that doesn't mean forcing people to learn it, it means creating the colective urge in the population to learn it and use it.
> I can't see that happening. My 'Welshness', whatever the fuck it is, is nothing to do with the language.



Can you remember in infant and junior school thinking: "I wish these bastards would stop forcing me to count and spell." ? Nor me, which is why kids should be learning Welsh from the earliest possible age.

You're right no point in forcing teenagers and adults to learn another language - it only causes resentment. Even worse to penalise them in the jobs market.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> It was on the radio the other day - they were saying that statistically it's unusual to be monoglot. That on the continent it's normal to be bilingual and in Africa, for example, it's common for people to speak a handful of languages. I'm not making it up.
> 
> I agree that forcing people to learn another language when they are a teenager or adult is pointless. By that age it's already a daunting prospect. That's why it should be compulsory to start learning Welsh in tandem with English as soon as kids enter school. That way it is a natural process and no different than say learning your times-tables.



Yes I agree that it is far more common in many other countries for people to be bilingual but the statistic itself is what i question. For example most Chinese are monolingual as are most Americans. And while speakers of the more widely spoken indigenous tongues on South America usually speak some Spainish they are not properly bilingual.

So maybe we need to ask why are some peoples bilingua and others not? I would suggest that in regions that are multi-ethnic or multi-national in complexion that some degree of bilingualism is normal. Unless there is a long standing hostility between the specific groups when any relations will tend to break down. It can also be argued that bilingualism is widespread as a result of knowledge of a second language being succesfully encouraged by the state and the educational system which, as a general rule, will only apply in the developed countries if not in the Anglophone ones. Lastly I woul argue that bilingualism has developed in many countries as a result of the economic domination of science and technology, itslef based on econnomic domination and this imperialism of course, by one or more countries. Thus the widespread use of Latin in the past and now the massive learning of English in almost all of Eurasia.

I'll come back on the teaching of Welsh from three later.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Who's gonna *teach* Welsh as a first language to all from the age of 3 ffs?
They already have to learn it in infant school and up to the age of 16 as a foreign language.
Like you rightly say, to force adults to learn to speak welsh would be pointless, and only cause resentment. But that's what you'd have to do with current teachers, unless you wanted to only allow welsh speakers to become teachers in Wales from now on (which would be a rather mental bit of authoritarian social engineering, I'm sure you'd agree).


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## niclas (Aug 30, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Also important i believe is that your language will not be saved by forcing children from anglophone families and regions to learn it.



Parent pressure (mainly from non-Welsh speaking households) forced councils across Wales to provide bilingual education. This was particularly the case in Anglicised areas like the Valleys and NE Wales.
 So it's quite the opposite to the inference here - people fought for bilingual education rather than having it "forced" on them.
 I say "bilingual"  because in my "Welsh-medium" secondary school, we were given the option of taking subjects in either language at CSE, O and A level. It was the language of the school that was Welsh, and of course we all rebelled against that by speaking English.


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

The statistic comes from the Beeb - the item was about the benefits of language learning generally rather than being specifically about Welsh.

China has three languages I think.

Whatever the underlying economic, social, and historical reasons why people in 75% of the world can speak at least 2 languages - the fact is they _CAN_. So there is no reason why we in Wales can't be fully bilingual too. A comprehensive programme of bilingual education ought to be easy to set up.

As far as the current decline in the Welsh language is concerned the biggest villains are the Welsh-speaking middle-classes - the Pontcanna-ites and their ilk. They ought to be a powerful lobby for the language but they only really pay lip-service to it. The status quo suits them very nicely thank you, as their 'special status' enables them to rake in the grants - so why kill the golden goose?

Just imagine how vibrant Welsh culture would become if people from Ely to Rhyl were allowed to compete for jobs in Welsh broadcasting and the arts. At the moment most Welsh people are excluded from determining what Welsh culture is which is why we have a nepotistic and mediocre culture. A fully bilingual system from day 1 at school would eradicate this at a stroke and be a massive boost for Wales.

Bring it on, I say.


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Who's gonna *teach* Welsh as a first language to all from the age of 3 ffs?
> They already have to learn it in infant school and up to the age of 16 as a foreign language.
> Like you rightly say, to force adults to learn to speak welsh would be pointless, and only cause resentment. But that's what you'd have to do with current teachers, unless you wanted to only allow welsh speakers to become teachers in Wales from now on (which would be a rather mental bit of authoritarian social engineering, I'm sure you'd agree).



That's so negative. It wouldn't be that difficult for teachers to gain a basic competence in Welsh when teaching infants - I could probably do it now with a learn how to speak Welsh book to hand  - I mean how difficult is it to learn a few basic phrases? I don't think it's at all unreasonable to expect teachers to learn basic Welsh.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

OK - it's basic Welsh you're talking about.
Teachers already do learn and and teach basic Welsh if they are based in Wales.
I was assuming you wanted a fully bilingual education system with equal weight given to both languages.
That would be a whole different enterprise, I think.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> Parent pressure (mainly from non-Welsh speaking households) forced councils across Wales to provide bilingual education. This was particularly the case in Anglicised areas like the Valleys and NE Wales.
> So it's quite the opposite to the inference here - people fought for bilingual education rather than having it "forced" on them.
> I say "bilingual"  because in my "Welsh-medium" secondary school, we were given the option of taking subjects in either language at CSE, O and A level. It was the language of the school that was Welsh, and of course we all rebelled against that by speaking English.


But it was a minority movement, wasn't it? Not some universal uprising.
It's fair enough, I think, to have the choice to send your kids to a welsh school. I don't want them to have to learn it whatever school they go to in Wales, though.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Whatever the underlying economic, social, and historical reasons why people in 75% of the world can speak at least 2 languages - the fact is they _CAN_. So there is no reason why we in Wales can't be fully bilingual too. A comprehensive programme of bilingual education ought to be easy to set up.
> 
> As far as the current decline in the Welsh language is concerned the biggest villains are the Welsh-speaking middle-classes - the Pontcanna-ites and their ilk. They ought to be a powerful lobby for the language but they only really pay lip-service to it. The status quo suits them very nicely thank you, as their 'special status' enables them to rake in the grants - so why kill the golden goose?
> 
> ...


I think your vision of the democratic potential of people learning a language is a bit misguided, to be honest.
The kinds of (mainly) class differences that you mention would still exist if every fucker in the country could speak Welsh.
I'd rather spend my energy on exposing and fighting those class differences, than by going down some blind alley premised on a vision of the class struggle being played out in Welsh.
If I can't speak English (my mother tongue, btw) then I don't wanna be part of your revolution.


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## niclas (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> But it was a minority movement, wasn't it? Not some universal uprising.
> It's fair enough, I think, to have the choice to send your kids to a welsh school. I don't want them to have to learn it whatever school they go to in Wales, though.



You learn English in a Welsh-medium school. Why shouldn't you learn Welsh in an English-medium school?


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Because I don't want to.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

I'm not a catholic, either.
If I don't want my kids to be subjected to the eucharist I send them to a non-catholic school.
If some time down the line the state turns round and says that everyone in every school has to eat the flesh of Christ, drink his blood and suck the priest's cock then I'm gonna be a bit miffed about that, too.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

niclas said:
			
		

> You learn English in a Welsh-medium school. Why shouldn't you learn Welsh in an English-medium school?


Oh, and you learn english in a welsh school cos the kids would be pretty fucking screwed if they didn't. I've survived this long as a welshman in wales without welsh, but I doubt that many could say the same vice versa (unless they were in one of our very few majority welsh speaking communities, of course - but I'm not).

I'd like to emphasise - I'm not against kids learning welsh in school... but I wouldn't want there to be a situation where schools were totally bilingual. I think that takes it too far. But I think that's what's coming.


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> OK - it's basic Welsh you're talking about.
> Teachers already do learn and and teach basic Welsh if they are based in Wales.
> I was assuming you wanted a fully bilingual education system with equal weight given to both languages.
> That would be a whole different enterprise, I think.



No, I want fully bilingual with if anything more weight given to Welsh. But you have to start somewhere...


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## Brockway (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I think your vision of the democratic potential of people learning a language is a bit misguided, to be honest.
> The kinds of (mainly) class differences that you mention would still exist if every fucker in the country could speak Welsh.
> I'd rather spend my energy on exposing and fighting those class differences, than by going down some blind alley premised on a vision of the class struggle being played out in Welsh.
> If I can't speak English (my mother tongue, btw) then I don't wanna be part of your revolution.



I'm not suggesting for one second that everybody speaking Welsh will solve inequality. This is a cultural issue for me. In fact I've heard that at interviews for jobs where Welsh is required you are often asked if Welsh is your first language or learnt (the implication being that learnt is inferior). I do though think it would be a lot harder for the Crachach to determine what Welsh culture is if you could have 3 million people saying in Welsh: "actually I don't like Kathryn Jenkins or Bryn Terfyl." Saying it in English is not enough because they will always say that you are by default distanced from your own culture.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I do though think it would be a lot harder for the Crachach to determine what Welsh culture is if you could have 3 million people saying in Welsh: "actually I don't like Kathryn Jenkins"


That's one phrase I wouldn't mind learning.
Now Bryn, of course, is another matter...


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## bonheddwr (Aug 30, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Because I don't want to.



Twit by name, Twit by nature. Where's the chip on your shoulder come from? Your attitude is pathetic and childish.

Fine, deny your children their birth right, but remember one thing. Children in bilingual schools in Wales reach a much higher academic level than their counterparts in English only schools. They even get better results than the average school in England IN ENGLISH!

The more languages you speak, the easier it is to pick up others. I'd make Welsh and English compulsory from 3years old onwards, so that everyone in Wales is bilingual, and ONLY THEN would they have a choice. At the moment there is no choice. Most Welsh children are denied their right to the Welsh language.


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## ddraig (Aug 30, 2006)

there's no need for that bonheddwr! and can it be taken to the 'pedantry and politico' thread for miserable naysayers please
diolch


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## wiskey (Aug 30, 2006)

right i have been practicing  

two questions

1) how is ddraig pronounced? is it like a welsh craig (no offence if it isnt)

and 

2) i had a mate called Llyr. he taught me to pronounce it like a cross between clear and lyr (musical instrument). is that how 'll' is normally pronounced? a sort of gutteral throat clearing sound? 

cheers


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## ddraig (Aug 30, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> right i have been practicing
> 
> two questions
> 
> ...


  lol
1) not really, ddraig is just the Welsh word for dragon, and it's more raa in the middle, the 'dd' is sort of like a buzzing sound with a d, like u were being electrocuted.
2) sort of, and yes it's a bit gutteral


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Just noticed Ddraig's other thread!
Bonheddwr - if feel like we can take it over there. That's where my answer to you is now.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> there's no need for that bonheddwr! and can it be taken to the 'pedantry and politico' thread for miserable naysayers please
> diolch


Cheers, Ddraig... Note to you:  I really don't want to be seen as anti-welsh language. I totally respect anyone's right to learn and speak it and hope to learn myself one day, like. I just feel strong about compulsory bilingualism as an education policy.


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## llantwit (Aug 30, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> No, I want fully bilingual with if anything more weight given to Welsh. But you have to start somewhere...


And what if lots of other people don't?
Are we all Uncle Sam Bachs, stupid dupes of the scheming imperialists? 
No we're just people who don't really care too much about the Welsh language either way, and who aren't too keen on having their choices over the languages their kids are brought up speaking taken away from them.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Cheers, Ddraig... Note to you:  I really don't want to be seen as anti-welsh language. I totally respect anyone's right to learn and speak it and hope to learn myself one day, like. I just feel strong about compulsory bilingualism as an education policy.



i know mate, no worries, i can see both your pov but bonheddwr has gone a bit ott with his slightly 'mis-directed' passion imo and i would hate to see it turn into a full-on bunfight.  bit strung out so can't read and respond properly as i'd like to atm, sori to all concerned. in the words of WoW, 'more later'


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 31, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> right i have been practicing
> 
> two questions
> 
> ...



1) the DD is like a hard TH really, as in The.

2) I think this was earlier on in this or the Siarad Cymraeg thread - its like a soft TH immediately running into an L, but there is something about it which is very difficult to pinpoint precisely in English, but the above approach will get you close.

The 'throat clearing sound' I think you mean CH, which is a letter in its own right as are LL and DD (as distinct from C, H, D and L), and is rather like the Ch in the scottish word, Loch - its a very throaty sound indeed.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 31, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> The statistic comes from the Beeb - the item was about the benefits of language learning generally rather than being specifically about Welsh.
> 
> China has three languages I think.
> 
> ...



So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.

Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?

Your vision of Wales as bilingual - begging the question of which language individuals will choose to speak to other individuals given a free choice - is utopian. Languages are no more equal than individuals. Certainly individuals should have equal rights and opportunities but it is crazy to believe that they are equal in every way. Similarly languages are not equal and even if by some magic everybody in Wales was able to speak both languages we would still live in a world in which Welsh is a minority language and English a world language spoken by hundreds of millions.

At most by boosting the number of Welsh speakers you would be boosting the market for Welsh medium cultural products. Assuming, an unwarranted asumption in my opnion, that people would choose such products over their English medum rivals in the market. In no other way would you be boosting Welsh culture, whatever that means, given that popular culture everywhere is increasing international - which in reality all too often means Anglo-Amercian of course - based on the bourgeois values of this society. Viewed in this way what is specifically Welsh about People of the Valley that differntiates it as such from Coronation Street or Manuredale?

To conclude we live in a society in which a world culture exists and i the tendencies towards it sfurther development are massive. Some such endencies are deplorable in my opinion and others very positive. But the development of such a culture and the sheer impossiblity for any national or minority language culture, 'Welsh culture' would of course be both, is clear for all to see. Your vision of a vibrant Welsh language based cuture in all parts of Wales is as utopian and socially reactionary as say the vision of Wales held by Saunders Lewis that we would all return to an agricultural Roman Catholc Wales.

Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much.


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Face facts Wales has two languages that are unequal. More state aid must be given to the minority culture as its speakers must also fight the market in order to prerserve and develop their language. But it is their language not ours thank you very much.


My feelings exactly.


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## liampreston (Aug 31, 2006)

I'll try and bring this back to the original intention of the thread =)

The company I work for has recently taken on a contract for Wales, and honestly we are trying to learn a few phrases to please our clients..

Any chance of a quick translation for the equivilent for "That should be done now" or "Done".. in the context of a quick email reply to advise the request has been, er, done ?

Diolch yn fawr =)


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## RubberBuccaneer (Aug 31, 2006)

liampreston said:
			
		

> I'll try and bring this back to the original intention of the thread =)
> 
> The company I work for has recently taken on a contract for Wales, and honestly we are trying to learn a few phrases to please our clients..
> 
> ...



'Now in a minute'


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## phildwyer (Aug 31, 2006)

"Now" means "never."  As in "I'll be there now."


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

liampreston said:
			
		

> I'll try and bring this back to the original intention of the thread =)
> 
> The company I work for has recently taken on a contract for Wales, and honestly we are trying to learn a few phrases to please our clients..
> 
> ...



"That should be done now" or "Done"
it would be more like "that's been done now"
"mae e wedi wneud nawr"

done - wneud
complete - cwbwlhau

please note i am not 100% on spellings but i'm sure they'd get the gist.
or you could sub it out to me


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## liampreston (Aug 31, 2006)

=) Well if you want to get paid per phrase..."Excavate in footway to clear blockages in duct"  

Heh, I don't want to take the piss. I remember driving a German friend bonkers by asking him to translate everything, usually after a heavy night at the pub. To ensure I never asked him again, he refused to speak English until I swore never to ask again =P


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## wiskey (Aug 31, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> 1) the DD is like a hard TH really, as in The.
> 
> 2) I think this was earlier on in this or the Siarad Cymraeg thread - its like a soft TH immediately running into an L, but there is something about it which is very difficult to pinpoint precisely in English, but the above approach will get you close.
> 
> The 'throat clearing sound' I think you mean CH, which is a letter in its own right as are LL and DD (as distinct from C, H, D and L), and is rather like the Ch in the scottish word, Loch - its a very throaty sound indeed.




hokey dokes 

tbh i'm finding that i'm probably better off trying to learn to read welsh than speak it. i'd need to immerse myself in people who speak it to get proper translations. 

i've been looking at the beeb learn welsh pages. 

confuzzling stuff (i have to point out i have a total blank space when it comes to learning languages - unlike my mother who learnt 6 and my little brother who's steaming through 3 )


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## liampreston (Aug 31, 2006)

The romantic streak in me loves any languages... and the ability to learn and speak another language amazes me... Much power (or wispec') to those who can.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

don't know how i can help wiskey but i will in any way i can
this might be of some use
http://www.geiriadur.net/




			
				wiskey said:
			
		

> i've been looking at the beeb learn welsh pages.


have u been trying the bbc cymry'r byd 'vocab' where you can having floating translations?
if not, worth a go http://www.bbc.co.uk/cymru/vocab/


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## lemontop (Aug 31, 2006)

I had to learn a bit of Welsh as a foreign language as part of my TEFL certificate. I can still remember everything from 6 years ago, only very basic stuff but I used to freak out my old Welsh housemate by giving her the weather forecast in Welsh. I liked that the number five was 'pimp' and a carrot was a 'moron'


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## Ben Bore (Aug 31, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> No we're just people who don't really care too much about the Welsh language either way, and who aren't too keen on having their choices over the languages their kids are brought up speaking taken away from them.



I'm not looking for an argument, but by insiting your child is'nt subjected to that horrible useless and dangerous language (Welsh), are you not taking the choice away from them?  If they are fluent in both, then the can make the choice.  if they can only speak English, they have no choice what langugae they speak unless they spend time learning Welsh as a second language when adults


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

*ahem!*




			
				Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for an argument, but by insiting your child is'nt subjected to that horrible useless and dangerous language (Welsh), are you not taking the choice away from them?  If they are fluent in both, then the can make the choice.  if they can only speak English, they have no choice what langugae they speak unless they spend time learning Welsh as a second language when adults



http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=175617


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## Jim2k5 (Aug 31, 2006)

i wish i'd grown up in wales just so i could speak the language, i think its fasinating and id really like to learn it, and i know i never will sitting on forrums all day. one day ill treat my self to an extensive welsh course, drop out half way through coz its to hard and then revert to english


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## llantwit (Aug 31, 2006)

Ben- answered you over there mate...


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## neprimerimye (Aug 31, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> I'm not looking for an argument, but by insiting your child is'nt subjected to that horrible useless and dangerous language (Welsh), are you not taking the choice away from them?  If they are fluent in both, then the can make the choice.  if they can only speak English, they have no choice what langugae they speak unless they spend time learning Welsh as a second language when adults



Exactly the same argument can be made for the teaching of Kirghiz as a compulsary second language in Welsh schools. But why should children who live in areas which are not Kirghiz speaking be taught Kirghiz? After all if they are not taught it from an early age they cannot freely choose not to speak it in adulty life.

But such an argument is, of course, nonsense. As is the argument that all children should be taught Welsh from an even earlier age when we know that in the real world they will not make use of it in either their personal or work lives.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 31, 2006)

liampreston said:
			
		

> I'll try and bring this back to the original intention of the thread =)
> 
> The company I work for has recently taken on a contract for Wales, and honestly we are trying to learn a few phrases to please our clients..
> 
> ...



Contact the Welsh Language Board and a grant will be yours by the end of the week.


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## Gavin Bl (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Contact the Welsh Language Board and a grant will be yours by the end of the week.



Are you actually shouting all this as you type it?


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

Gavin Bl said:
			
		

> Are you actually shouting all this as you type it?


i reckon he's mumbling it stropily whilst rolling the eyes but with a *superior* and gleefull grin exuding a little spittle along the way.


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## neprimerimye (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> i reckon he's mumbling it stropily whilst rolling the eyes but with a *superior* and gleefull grin exuding a little spittle along the way.



Astounding how often clowns resort to personal insults when their line of reasoning is shown to be fallacious.

And there are grants available to businesses for help with Welsh language translations. Good advice check it out asswipe.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Astounding how often clowns resort to personal insults when their line of reasoning is shown to be fallacious.
> 
> And there are grants available to businesses for help with Welsh language translations. Good advice check it out asswipe.


is that an insult lesson?   none so precious as as an offendee going in for some ott retaliation. and can u fallate yerself?  

did u see the 'i reckon' and  in my post or was the spittle obscuring some of the screen. 
i know of what u elude to but it's just the way you do it ya see

e2a - how have u shown my line of reasoning to be fallacious btw 
you did read the thread title didn't you? and obviously it's too much to politely ask you to save your venom for the specially created thread for you and your unmoveable 'ilk'


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## neprimerimye (Aug 31, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> how have u shown my line of reasoning to be fallacious btw



Read my post made at 2.37 and find out.

A reply would be appreciated but beyond your limited abilities in all probability.


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Read my post made at 2.37 and find out.
> 
> A reply would be appreciated but beyond your limited abilities in all probability.


oooh get you...

can you not do post no's?  or do you get a kick out of being difficult with everything?


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## ddraig (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Read my post made at 2.37 and find out.
> 
> A reply would be appreciated but beyond your limited abilities in all probability.



so after a long and difficult hunt with my lomited abilities i found it.
and 
1) what and where in that post is anything directed at myself?
2) where on this thread or any others have i argued against the points you so elloquently deigned to (sharing your obvious wisdom/'facts') put across to us plebs?


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## Brockway (Aug 31, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> So the statistic you have quoted is something you heard on the radio? Given that I've never heard or seen a similar statistic anywhere else i cannot but conclude that you misheard something.Indeed you play rather loose with facts again when you assert that China has three languages. In fact it has dozens of languages. Although Han Chinese is spoken by the vast majority and the ruling class hae had a long standing policy of forcing it on minority groups.
> 
> Again you assert that 75% of the worlds populations are bilingual. And then use this as an argument for a fully bilingual education system in Wales. But the fact is that with not a single exception people only speak one language at a time. Very few peope being equally 'at home' in more than one language. There is no good reason to assume that people in Wales would break with this universal pattern and why should they?
> 
> ...



You said 3 o'clock...


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## rhys gethin (Sep 11, 2006)

Every Englishman I've ever met has been told to say 'THL' got 'll', and its sounds HORRIBLE.


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## ddraig (Sep 11, 2006)

croeso rhys!  
we've got a 'siarad cymraeg siarad cymraeg' thread as well


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 11, 2006)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> Every Englishman I've ever met has been told to say 'THL' got 'll', and its sounds HORRIBLE.



true, but its about as good as you can do, until a person actually 'gets' the LL sound instinctively right. Better than the the CL variant, anyway


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