# What should the punishment be for swearing at a teacher?



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

My youngest got excluded for 3 days a couple of weeks ago for telling a teacher to fuck off. It ended up being 4 days because they can't go back into school until they've been interviewed be a senior member of staff and none were available.

So, he's done it again. He mumbled it at a teacher when she'd pissed him off and a passing teacher heard him. He has adhd and it mainly presents itself in hyperactivity but he also has major oppositional issues. The school deals out really heavy handed punishments for stuff like this and I think they paint themselves into a corner.

I've actually been working really closely with the school since September and after a rocky start we seemed to be actually getting somewhere. There was a very useful meeting with the Ed Psych where she was able to tell them that most of the stuff they're seeing from him is related to the adhd. However, the school are still working from the pov that if he 'gets away with it' then they'll have to let other kids 'get away' with it too.

Anyway - he's done it again (different teacher) and they want to put him in internal exclusion for a week. That means he's in a room on his own all day with different lunch breaks and different start/finish times to the rest of the school. I'm not happy with it because I think it's going to create more problems than it solves.

They're open to discussion and I agree that he shouldn't be allowed to swear at a teacher with no repercussion at all but I'd like the repercussions to be useful. Putting him in internal exclusion just makes him angry and more likely to kick off.

Any ideas?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

We'd do internal exclusion, but not for 5 days. Maybe one day, only more if they refused to apologise. We are a very strict school.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Nov 29, 2011)

I would have sworn at the teacher if I knew it would either get me time off or got my own classroom


----------



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

He was properly excluded for 3 days. I thought that was a bit extreme myself. Especially for a special needs kid. He always apologises.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

A three day external exclusion would be for something much more serious. Bullying, stealing or something. Is there anyone on SLT who is approachable to talk this through with?


----------



## stuff_it (Nov 29, 2011)

I got in trouble at school for telling a teacher to fut off when i was 5 but it was only a ticking off and telling my mum.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

Can the Ed Psych come up with any meaningful coping strategies on this? I worked with a kid with similar problems and once I started working with the Ed Psych with strategies the exclusions dropped away drastically.


----------



## lizzieloo (Nov 29, 2011)

Maybe there are of the opinion that only they can discipline him, as you aware that he needs there to be a consequence for his swearing could you suggest maybe punishing him at home? I dunno an xbox ban or pocket money, that way he's stll being punished but his schooling won't suffer.

I realise that's difficult for the school as they need to be seen by the other kids repremanding him somehow.

A week is very harsh, sounds to me like the school are setting him up for a fall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2011)

I think they should give him a dictionary to help broaden his vocabulary. 'fuck off' is so generally used it is a wonder anyone's offended by it anymore


----------



## girasol (Nov 29, 2011)

I know Pickman's is probably joking, but a constructive punishment is more useful than what they are doing now. And maybe making him read a really challenging book and look up the words in the dictionary is a good thing to do. When kids are in internal exclusion what do they do all day? I should know this, as my son has been once or twice, but I actually don't know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2011)

girasol said:


> I know Pickman's is probably joking


no I'm not


----------



## treefrog (Nov 29, 2011)

Depends on context. I had a kid tell me to fuck off this week, but I know how he is, the context he said it in and that he's got some problems so I made it clear it wasn't on but didn't kick his arse for it.

What lizzieloo said basically, sounds like they're setting him up to fail


----------



## elfman (Nov 29, 2011)

girasol said:


> I know Pickman's is probably joking, but a constructive punishment is more useful than what they are doing now. And maybe making him read a really challenging book and look up the words in the dictionary is a good thing to do. When kids are in internal exclusion what do they do all day? I should know this, as my son has been once or twice, but I actually don't know.


They just do work set by the teacher but on their own.

If one of my students swore at me I would probably laugh. I think 5 year old chinese kids telling me to fuck off would be funny


----------



## toggle (Nov 29, 2011)

gawds, mine wasn't even told off properly for fighting in class last week.


----------



## wtfftw (Nov 29, 2011)

If it's related to his adhd then shouldn't the school react differently than they do with other pupils swearing?


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Nov 29, 2011)

I think you should stress that this punishment is not constructive. As he apologises it isn't that he doesn't feel remorse for swearing at them, that's not the point of the punishment so it seems to me that they are just putting their foot down. Fair enough, they have to enforce their authority but they have to do so in a way which without further disenfranchising him, if he has a problem with authority then the punishments should not be aimed at sticking it to him but to get him to take responsibility for his behaviour. What is internal exclusion going to teach him about responsibility? Fuck all. It will only reinforce his opposition to them.

When will people stop trying to 'break their will'? 
I've had it with my son's school and I tell you it wasn't until the Ed Psyche confirmed what I was telling them until they took a more effective approach. And that was after they tried to pack my big off to mental health services.


----------



## trashpony (Nov 29, 2011)

I was listening to a programme on using restorative justice in schools the other day instead of exclusions. It's much more effective. Exclusions are a fucking stupid way of punishing children, I've never understood how they think that will make children behave 'better'.


----------



## scifisam (Nov 29, 2011)

An exclusion like that is a huge over-reaction. I'd be tempted to tell the teachers to fuck off too.


----------



## treefrog (Nov 29, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> *When will people stop trying to 'break their will'?*
> I've had it with my son's school and I tell you it wasn't until the Ed Psyche confirmed what I was telling them until they took a more effective approach. And that was after they tried to pack my big off to mental health services.



THIS. My profession needs a kicking sometimes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 29, 2011)

I was put on internal suspension for a week, I had to shadow the deputy head. So I had a week sat in his nice warm office drinking tea and dunking biscuits, with the odd lesson to attend, sat behind him, facing the class, pulling faces. Plus I got to sit on the stage during assembly


----------



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

I've sent an email saying that I think they paint themsleves into a corner by setting such severe punishments so easily and that they perhaps need to get some perspective on the situation. I've said they can go ahead with it today but anything after that doesn't have mine or mr mad'zs support.

 I'm willing to work with them to find a constructive solution as it's clearly not ok to be swearing at the teachers but he still has teachers being less than supportive and saying 'That's nothing to do with adhd' yet when you ask them how adhd is likely to manifest in a school setting they can't fucking tell you 

I dunno. The head isn't going to be happy. He knows I can't stand him and he also knows I can run rings round him in an argument (if I manage not to lose my temper first )  They make all this npise about being a modern school but they're still stcuk in the fucking dark ages when it comes to stuff like this.

I'm not keen on punishing hbim at home when it's something to do with school as I want to keep it separate and not overload him. We do use sanctions at home but we try to use rewards as well (I say 'we') He's grounded tonight for burning stuff in his room and not handing over the lighter when he was told but he's alos getting something to the value of £20 because he managed a whole week without telling a teacher to fuck off (not sure i could do that tbh). So, it's ind of complicated enough for him at home right now.

I might suggest some kind of restorative justice thing *toddles off to research it a bit*


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 29, 2011)

i'm reminded of draco* who is said to have commented on his own rulings
"We need the death penalty to prevent small crimes, and for bigger ones I can't think of any greater punishment."

*as in draconian


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2011)

As long as what was said was grammatically correct I can't see a problem.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 29, 2011)

Surely, the punishment for swearing at a teacher should be that the teacher swears back harder and shows you a thing or two about how to swear properly?


----------



## Santino (Nov 29, 2011)

madzone said:


> He's grounded tonight for burning stuff in his room and not handing over the lighter when he was told



You need a punishment regime that lets him know this ^^ is worse than a bit of swearing.


----------



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

Santino said:


> You need a punishment regime that lets him know this ^^ is worse than a bit of swearing.


Grounding him is the worst thing for him.


----------



## Santino (Nov 29, 2011)

How old is he?


----------



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

13


----------



## Greebo (Nov 29, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> I think you should stress that this punishment is not constructive. As he apologises it isn't that he doesn't feel remorse for swearing at them, that's not the point of the punishment so it seems to me that they are just putting their foot down. Fair enough, they have to enforce their authority but they have to do so in a way which without further disenfranchising him, if he has a problem with authority then the punishments should not be aimed at sticking it to him but to get him to take responsibility for his behaviour. What is internal exclusion going to teach him about responsibility? Fuck all. It will only reinforce his opposition to them.<snip>


^^^This.


----------



## WouldBe (Nov 29, 2011)

Wash his mouth out with soap and water.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 29, 2011)

Old school


----------



## grit (Nov 29, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> * As he apologises it isn't that he doesn't feel remorse for swearing at them*,



LOL


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2011)

a punch in the face


----------



## nagapie (Nov 29, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> We'd do internal exclusion, but not for 5 days. Maybe one day, only more if they refused to apologise. We are a very strict school.



My school would do this. We are not a very strict school.


----------



## nagapie (Nov 29, 2011)

Can't the school set up some sort of action plan for him. So for example he has to try and get through 3 lessons a day without getting into trouble and if he can do that for a week he gets a reward. And if he doesn't manage, he has to do a detention of 10 min for every transgression up to a maximum of 30 min a day, but it has to be on the same day so everything is resolved straight away.


----------



## madzone (Nov 29, 2011)

nagapie said:


> Can't the school set up some sort of action plan for him. So for example he has to try and get through 3 lessons a day without getting into trouble and if he can do that for a week he gets a reward. And if he doesn't manage, he has to do a detention of 10 min for every transgression up to a maximum of 30 min a day, but it has to be on the same day so everything is resolved straight away.


He's supposed to be on a rewards system. I told them they had to start it off ridiculously small to get him into the habit of being rewarded. He's supposed to get an extra drum session for going into maths lessons but it hasn't happened yet despite him going into all the maths lesson's he's supposed to.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

That is a crock of shite. If they can't even get rewards together they are useless


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

Are they setting him up to fail?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 29, 2011)

PM me their phone number. I can be excoriating


----------



## nagapie (Nov 29, 2011)

madzone said:


> He's supposed to be on a rewards system. I told them they had to start it off ridiculously small to get him into the habit of being rewarded. He's supposed to get an extra drum session for going into maths lessons but it hasn't happened yet despite him going into all the maths lesson's he's supposed to.



What's their excuse for why it hasn't happened? They sound shit. I think you should record when they don't live up to their part of the bargain by sending someone an email and saving the emails. If the school were ever to try and exclude him, you'd be able to show they haven't supported him properly.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2011)

*



			What should the punishment be for swearing at a teacher?
		
Click to expand...

*
My teachers always favoured the bastinado, but you're not allowed to do that nowadays.

Seriously though, I'd have thought a telling-off and being forced to write a 300-word essay on "why I must not swear at teachers" would be enough.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Nov 30, 2011)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> When will people stop trying to 'break their will'?



I always got the impression that was the principle aim of school (not to be confused with education)...


----------



## equationgirl (Nov 30, 2011)

They do sound particularly crap - I get the impression that they see him as 'too much trouble' (completely inexecusable) and are setting him up to fail so they can exclude him permanently.

Utterly disgraceful if this is the case. He has a right to an education.


----------



## dessiato (Nov 30, 2011)

It really does sounds if the school is setting him up to fail. As others have said, start recording their failures and feeding it back to them in a way that means that you can defend your child against their actions. Lazy teachers really piss me off, do they truly forget what their job is? I say this as someone who is a teacher.

Is it possible to move him to a more empathic school?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Nov 30, 2011)

Not that easy if you're in deepest rural Cornwall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> My teachers always favoured the bastinado, but you're not allowed to do that nowadays.
> 
> Seriously though, I'd have thought a telling-off and being forced to write a 300-word essay on "why I must not swear at teachers" would be enough.


is the strappado similarly proscribed?


----------



## madzone (Nov 30, 2011)

I've had an email from the deputy head (who I've been working with closely) saying she's happy to leave it at the day of internal exclusion and an apology. She also started wittering on about sticker charts. He's 13 ffs and that's why we settled on the reward of the drum sessions. They haven't happened  So, yet again it's been all stick and no carrot. No wonder he's pissed off with them - everythingh we agree on they don't actually follow through on. I suggested they give him a mini bar of chocolate or something as a reward and they thought I was joking but that would work for him


----------



## BlueSquareThing (Nov 30, 2011)

To be honest, I've tended to find that this depends partly on who they swear at. I've been told I'm a fucking cunt (in a really nasty way) and there's been a lunch time detention as a result. Other people get told to bugger off and there's a three day external exclusion. Same type of kid - it seems to depend partly on how much fuss the teacher kicks up and who they are - they know I don't give a toss most of the time (my standard reaction to being told to fuck off (which usually means they want to get out of the lesson anyway) is to say that I'd really rather not thank you, now get on with the work...).


----------



## Greebo (Nov 30, 2011)

madzone said:


> I've had an email from the deputy head (who I've been working with closely) saying she's happy to leave it at the day of internal exclusion and an apology. <snip>
> 
> No wonder he's pissed off with them - everythingh we agree on they don't actually follow through on. I suggested they give him a mini bar of chocolate or something as a reward and they thought I was joking but that would work for him


So much for fairness and consistency.    Important with youngsters, anyway, but even more so with behavioural problems.


----------



## krtek a houby (Nov 30, 2011)

Exclusion doesn't work; my friend's kid was excluded at a similar age and he pretty much spiralled down from that moment on. Not that would happen to yours - and he did turn out alright in the end after all.

Do they not do a weeks detention or something like that?


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 30, 2011)

They do sound like a shower mads.  What does the SENCO have to say? s/he should be involved in working out this stuff.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> is the strappado similarly proscribed?



Yep, and the fustuarium. 

Bloody liberals!


----------



## Greebo (Nov 30, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> <snip>What does the SENCO have to say? s/he should be involved in working out this stuff.


This.


----------



## madzone (Nov 30, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> They do sound like a shower mads. What does the SENCO have to say? s/he should be involved in working out this stuff.


The senco and I don't see eye to eye. We had an absolutely disatrous meeting where he told me that he has to punish my boy the same as everyone else because if he gets away with it then everyone else will want to get away with it too. We were talking about htings _directly_ related to his adhd.  He also said he doesn't think it's the responsibility of the school to find out how adhd will present itself in a classroom setting.

In short he's a cunt and we had 'words'.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 30, 2011)

oh what a twat.  most sencos are lovely.  He sort of has a point, in that as far as the other kids are concerned, someone can't be seen to get away with stuff because of their BESD/ADHD needs, but what happens outside of the classroom context needs to be responsive to his needs. And he bloody knows that (the senco).

apart from anything else, i'd say the behaviour management strategies at this school sound weak in the whole area of dealing with conflict and preventing escalation.  I've taught all kinds of kids with all kinds of needs, and i don't think i've actually been sworn *at* for years (in front of, many times - but not at). One girl did once threaten to have some friends cut my face once, though.  But she didn't swear at me. She was permanently excluded, btw.


----------



## madzone (Nov 30, 2011)

This senco is such a twat that I'm thinking of asking to see proof that he has any idea what special needs are at all.

On the subject of letting kids get away with stuff would they punish a kid with tourettes for swearing or other tics? To clarify, when he says that he shouldn't 'get away with it' he means he needs to be punished, not that the issue be addressed in a way that's relevant to his special needs. I'm not for one minute suggesting to the school that he should be able to swear at teachers with no repercussions but this is for things like losing his pencil case or fidgetting.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 30, 2011)

it would depend on the disruption to the class.  if the other students were able to understand the condition and it didn't disrupt them, then it wouldn't be a problem.  if it did, then it wouldn't be a question of punishment, but they *may* not be suitable for mainstream learning.  schools and individual teachers are assessed on behaviour, focus and engagement in lessons.  if anything is preventing that - even for a reason like tourettes, then the perception is that the whole class is not learning or progressing in the appropriate way.  That said - i imagine kids can understand that tourettes is an uncontrollable condition. the problem with adhd, and particularly oppositional defiance disorder, is that what happens looks and sounds exactly like 'bad behaviour'.

i've had this conversation with kids many times.  why is XXXX in isolation when YYYY did the same thing and just got exited from the lesson?  Why is AAAA being permenantly excluded? BBBB is far naughtier than her in every lesson!


----------



## madzone (Nov 30, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> it would depend on the disruption to the class. if the other students were able to understand the condition and it didn't disrupt them, then it wouldn't be a problem. if it did, then it wouldn't be a question of punishment, but they *may* not be suitable for mainstream learning. schools and individual teachers are assessed on behaviour, focus and engagement in lessons. if anything is preventing that - even for a reason like tourettes, then the perception is that the whole class is not learning or progressing in the appropriate way. That said - i imagine kids can understand that tourettes is an uncontrollable condition. the problem with adhd, and particularly oppositional defiance disorder, is that what happens looks and sounds exactly like 'bad behaviour'.
> 
> i've had this conversation with kids many times. why is XXXX in isolation when YYYY did the same thing and just got exited from the lesson? Why is AAAA being permenantly excluded? BBBB is far naughtier than her in every lesson!


Sounds like here when somone gets banned 

I think what also confuses them is despite being really oppositional etc he's still getting B's and C's in everything.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 30, 2011)

it's so frustrating. school really just is the wrong fit for some kids. will there be a sixth form college he can go to after his gcses, where they'll treat him more like an adult?  or is he stuck with it til 18?


----------



## madzone (Nov 30, 2011)

He'll be able to leave when he's 16. If I can keep him out of trouble long enough so a college will actually take him, that is


----------



## _angel_ (Nov 30, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> it would depend on the disruption to the class. if the other students were able to understand the condition and it didn't disrupt them, then it wouldn't be a problem. if it did, then it wouldn't be a question of punishment, but they *may* not be suitable for mainstream learning. schools and individual teachers are assessed on behaviour, focus and engagement in lessons. if anything is preventing that - even for a reason like tourettes, then the perception is that the whole class is not learning or progressing in the appropriate way. That said - i imagine kids can understand that tourettes is an uncontrollable condition. the problem with adhd, and particularly oppositional defiance disorder, is that what happens looks and sounds exactly like 'bad behaviour'.
> 
> i've had this conversation with kids many times. why is XXXX in isolation when YYYY did the same thing and just got exited from the lesson? Why is AAAA being permenantly excluded? BBBB is far naughtier than her in every lesson!


How entirely predictable that a school doesn't understand the condition a kid has a diagnosis for. Unfortunately this happens in special schools too. I dunno if you saw a programme about an autistic spectrum school called "make me normal". The head teacher spectacularly failed to "get" the whole point with autism.


----------



## hmmph (Nov 30, 2011)

It's the first Disability History Month (22nd Nov - 22nd Dec) at the moment. The focus is on schools and education aiming to challenge descrimination and negative attitudes. check www.ukdisabilitymonth.com for resources

Also the QCDA have supported World of Inclusion to design some disability equality support materials for schools to help them with positive planning and practice - these can be found at www.worldofinclusion.com/qcda.htm - there is loads of stuff there for both primary and secondary schools.

Contact a Family are also running a SEND project on behalf of the DfE which provides support and resources for SENCos.They are also running the SEN National Advice Service for parents which has replaced ACE's helpline and covers a range of issues related to SEN. You can call them for free on 0808 808 3555.


----------



## spanglechick (Nov 30, 2011)

it's tough. he'll have to do something education or trainingy til 17 or 18 by then, won't he?


----------



## toggle (Nov 30, 2011)

my kid has what I call his 'getting away with it card' that he gets because he has adhd. he thinks that he woudln't get into half the trouble any other kid would and very few of the other kids commennt on anyhting that he gets away with.

I really wasn't joking about him getting into no trouble at all for fighting in class last week, i also didn't get any comment home from the school when he broke another kid's fingers (accidentally, but bloody carelessly)

and to give an idea, this school is about 20 miles from madz. it's not a cornwall stuck in the dark ages with this, it is that she has her kids at a really shitty school.

suggestion: find out what advance college programms there are. they are for kids that just can't fit in at school. he's probably a year young for most of them, but i know truro start them at 14. part of it is for exceptionally bright kids, but part is for the kids that just don't fit at school. if your local college don't do this, try contacting truro.


----------



## madzone (Dec 1, 2011)

He's walked out of school. I'm 30 miles away and there's fuck all I can do about it. He'll be grounded tomorrow night as well now (he's grounded tonight for being 2 hrs late last night) so that's more fighting to look forward to.

I fucking give up.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 1, 2011)

Poor madz. Is there anyone who can mediate in this instance so to avoid the fighting?


----------



## madzone (Dec 1, 2011)

No. I rang home to tell mr madz (why the fuck the school can't do that is beyond me) and he flipped. I spend most of my time mediating between the two of _them._


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 1, 2011)

madzone said:


> No. I rang home to tell mr madz (why the fuck the school can't do that is beyond me) and he flipped. I spend most of my time mediating between the two of _them._



Oh dear. What are you going to do? Does anything you say get through?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Dec 1, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your situation madz.

I know you said above that school and home issues are seperate but with all due respect madz I think you should be punishing him in some form at home (but also rewarding him obviously). His behaviour at school is clearly affecting everyones home life. Unfotunatley home life and school life are not seperate, just in the same way that work life and home life are not.

One directly affects the other. And it sounds that it has stepped beyond the boundaires of the school yard and is affecting all your family - and will continue to do so if he behaves like this when he becomes more adult (and I do mean if - becuase not everyone does, and many do grow out of it.)

I don't have kids myself but... I knew at that age that school was only temporary and I know that the only thing that stopped me misbehaving in school was the inevitable shitstorm of disaprroval and reprocussions I would get from my mum at home.

At the end I think it boils down to this: Your kid loves you - not the school. He respects you and not the school. So when he misbehaves at school I think that you need to show him that it's not acceptable for him to behave in that way - at home - becuase one affects the other.


----------



## madzone (Dec 1, 2011)

I'll just do what I've _been_ doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.


----------



## madzone (Dec 1, 2011)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Sorry to hear about your situation madz.
> 
> I know you said above that school and home issues are seperate but with all due respect madz I think you should be punishing him in some form at home (but also rewarding him obviously). His behaviour at school is clearly affecting everyones home life. Unfotunatley home life and school life are not seperate, just in the same way that work life and home life are not.
> 
> ...


He does have sanctions at home. I'm not punushing him for stuff he's already getting punished for in school. If you just lay punishment upon punishment on a kid they'll give up. That's the quickest way for him to start hanging round with even worse kids and doing even worse things than he is now.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 1, 2011)

madzone said:


> I'll just do what I've _been_ doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.



That must be so frustrating for you, though


----------



## toggle (Dec 1, 2011)

madzone said:


> I'll just do what I've _been_ doing.Find out why he walked out, ground him and listen to him and mr madz kicking off at each other, shouting, swearing and breaking stuff.



think you need to kick mr madz again. he is probably making it worse. if all kid is coming home to is a fight, it's no supprise he's not coming home


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 1, 2011)

best of luck madzone, sounds like you're stuck in an impossible situation again.


----------



## Wilson (Dec 1, 2011)

is he allowed to have a fire in the garden?


----------



## Yu_Gi_Oh (Dec 2, 2011)

Madzone, I hope you don't mind me sticking my oar in, I really don't know much about kids, but is it possible for you to see your local Education Welfare Officer?  I had to see one, for similar stuff; walking out of school, being on the edge of exclusion etc and she seemed to be much more powerful than everyone else and was able to change a lot of things and bend a lot of rules.  This was over 10 years ago now, but I do remember the stupid rigidity of the school relaxing once the EWO was in charge.

It must be a nightmare for you, it's not like you can actually _make _your kid do anything, even if the school are acting like you can.  Even grounding is only possible if there's someone at home to enforce it.


----------



## madzone (Dec 2, 2011)

Well, for anyone who's still reading this sorry tale it seems it may not be a cut and dried as him just deciding to fuck off from school for a jolly.

He really struggles with maths (both the lesson and the teacher) Once he has it explained to him he's fine but the teacher has a real problem with him and won't explain it. They'll only move him down a set so I want to avoid that. He has a time out card and is supposed to have a support person in with him in _all_ his maths lessons. Apparently yesterday the teacher set a test and my boy didn't understand it. He asked for help and the teacher ignored him so he put his time out card out on the desk and the teacher ignored it. He said he pushed the time out card out every time the teacher walked past but he ignored it every time. When I asked why he didn't ask his support person for help he said he didn't have one. Now, I suspect he may not have been as deliberate with putting his time out card on the desk as he claims and I'm not suggesting he's blameless but to not have support in that particualr class is fucking ridiculous. It's the flashpoint for _all_ his other problems.

I've emailed them and said that it's unrealistic to expect him to change his behaviour without the agreed support and that by agreeing to do all these things and then not doing them they're setting him up to fail.

I've lifted his grounding on the basis of what _actually_ happened and the fact that he was really helpful to me last night whilst mr madz was ill in bed. He bathed the baby and put her to bed and kept an eye on the fire etc and even cooked his own tea because he didn't like what I was having. So, he _can_ go to the ball


----------



## toggle (Dec 2, 2011)

It's maths classes that tend to set my son off as well. he went batchit over a test that was given 4 days earlier than he was told it would happen.

IDK, does he have access to some of the online maths stuff through the school? I think mine can pick up more through these than he does in class a lot fo the time.


----------



## Greebo (Dec 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> <snip>I've emailed them and said that it's unrealistic to expect him to change his behaviour without the agreed support and that by agreeing to do all these things and then not doing them they're setting him up to fail.
> 
> I've lifted his grounding on the basis of what _actually_ happened and the fact that he was really helpful to me last night whilst mr madz was ill in bed. He bathed the baby and put her to bed and kept an eye on the fire etc and even cooked his own tea because he didn't like what I was having. So, he _can_ go to the ball


Good call on the email madzone.  And it's encouraging to hear that your son's able to be considerate & responsible when he's not upset and angry.  It's almost criminal the way that the school seems to be setting him up to fail so often.


----------



## sheothebudworths (Dec 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> The senco and I don't see eye to eye. We had an absolutely disatrous meeting where he told me that he has to punish my boy the same as everyone else because if he gets away with it then everyone else will want to get away with it too. We were talking about htings _directly_ related to his adhd. He also said he doesn't think it's the responsibility of the school to find out how adhd will present itself in a classroom setting.



I'm thinking it'd be well worth emailing him separately, too - to get back *in writing* what he is (and more to the point, what he *isn't*) committing himself to in terms of strategies...and also, to what degree he acknowledges the potential impact adhd may have on a student and their ability to avoid stuff like this without further support (or even, the support that's been promised which hasn't materialised).

You could maybe just write specifying that you would like *confirmation* of the points he made in the meeting (listing what they were), with any corrections made if you may have *misunderstood* some of it - as well as listing the points that YOU made - acknowledging again that you have already made it clear that you don't expect him NOT to be punished, but that the punishments need to be appropriate and that he ALSO needs to be rewarded as previously agreed etc - cos the senco should be your main ally, ffs - and if he's failing the kids in his care that badly (and over fairly straightforward stuff, given his position, eh!  ) then it might be useful to have something in writing if you want to take that further.

Presumably then he either would confirm it, or he'd wriggle about a bit - but in that case you may actually end up with him promising some support that he hasn't up until now - so it'd be a win/win situation of sorts either way.

Come on, madz - you're great at this shit   fucking hell, I do know it's extra work you could well do without  but there again you could do without it all going tits up as it is atm, too...and I fucking _know_ you can resolve this if anyone can  - get emailing....


----------



## madzone (Dec 2, 2011)

I've got a meeting with them (again  ) next Thursday.

I'm fucking knackered


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 2, 2011)

Fingers crossed for that, madz & chin up xx


----------



## toggle (Dec 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> I've got a meeting with them (again  ) next Thursday.
> 
> I'm fucking knackered



http://www.nice.org.uk/nicemedia/live/12061/42107/42107.pdf



> Teachers trained in ADHD and its management should provide behavioural interventions in class.


----------



## toggle (Dec 2, 2011)

i knew you would like that


----------



## lizzieloo (Dec 2, 2011)

madzone said:


> I've had an email from the deputy head (who I've been working with closely) saying she's happy to leave it at the day of internal exclusion and an apology. She also started wittering on about sticker charts. He's 13 ffs and that's why we settled on the reward of the drum sessions. They haven't happened  So, yet again it's been all stick and no carrot. No wonder he's pissed off with them - everythingh we agree on they don't actually follow through on. I suggested they give him a mini bar of chocolate or something as a reward and they thought I was joking but that would work for him



The main problem here is any sane person would swear at them, they sound like a right shower of shites.


----------



## barney_pig (Dec 3, 2011)

Clarkson just had to say sorry and then go on a holiday to China,paid for by us.


----------



## madzone (Dec 9, 2011)

I'm back up there again at 1pm today to talk about the same old shit to a different person. I'm _really_ hoping I don't lose my temper.


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2011)

good luck hun


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 9, 2011)

It used to be half a day in "iso" for swearing at a teacher in the school where I was a TA. (Iso I think is the same as internal exclusion - a room with 16 booths and no talking whatsoever and the dullest work possible for both kids and staff)

Swearing, generally, was just a ticking off and a reminder to watch yer language, cos a lot of kids do it without thinking or sometimes even knowing they've done it.


----------



## dessiato (Dec 9, 2011)

I've followed this thread with interest as I have a seriously badly behaved kid in one of my classes.

This week he stabbed a kid, punched a girl, strangle the kid he stabbed. This is just the latest in a long line of problems which include hitting a teacher and attacking other students who looked at him.

We have been told that he is a disturbed kid, we are not to punish him or exclude him, we have to be nice to him and not exclude him from classes. For the safety of the others we are refusing to do so.


----------



## Quartz (Dec 10, 2011)

madzone said:


> My youngest got excluded for 3 days a couple of weeks ago for telling a teacher to fuck off. It ended up being 4 days because they can't go back into school until they've been interviewed be a senior member of staff and none were available.



Whatever happened to doing lines? Or copying out Shakespeare? Are you also punishing him?


----------



## Maurice Picarda (Dec 10, 2011)

Quartz said:


> Whatever happened to doing lines? Or copying out Shakespeare?



On the whole, schools are as concerned about drug use as they are about plagiarism.


----------



## madzone (Dec 10, 2011)

The meeting yesterday was ok. It was with the deputy head who's the one who actually takes charge of what's going on with him. The frustration is that we've had so many meetings with different people and then she doesn't get the informaiton so we're always back to square one.

Anyway - she had the copy of the Ed Psych report this time and it was saying about how low my boys' self esteem is. It was also saying about a reward system, which the deputy head was happy to try. She hadn't quite grasped how to do it for an adhd kid though and was talking about him geting a reward if he had 5 days worth of positive comments from teacghers. At the moment he hasn't stayed in school a whole week for about 6 weeks so I had to explain to her that she had to reduce it right down. I explained that when we're trying to address stuff at home we have to pick one thing and overlook the rest - for example, if we're trying to get him to come home off the bus we might have to put up with him swearing at us while we're working on the other thing iyswim.

The Ed Psych report had his projected grades for gcse and if he continues the way he is now (i.e. being a little fucker) then he's on course to get B's in everything and is one step away from an A in Science. I think that's what they find a bit hard to deal with. Apparently they had a special meeting dedicated just to him  and the Head had been into one of his English lessons to observe him. My boy spent the whole lesson fiddling about with his pens and other stuff he collected through the lesson and made them into a tower. To all intents and purposes it looked like he wasn't paying any attention at all but when the teacher asked something at the end he gave a shit-hot answer. I think it was really good for the Head to see that.

It turns out that one of his closest friends and another boy he hangs about with have just been excluded and are going to a short stay school. What was really useful is that the deputy head said they're all working so hard to keep him in the school that there's absolutely no chance of that happening to him. She was emphatic that they won't kick him out no matter what he does. She said that even if they had been thinking about kicking him out that he wouldn't go to the same short stay school because his close friend has gone there and they don't allow close friends to go together. What's clear is that despite all the fuss he's causing, key people in the school still really like him. I also think it helps that I'm obviously willing to go in and help sort stuff out. I find it exhausting but if he's still managing to get projected B's in his gcse's then I guess I owe it to everyone to stay involved as much as possible, especially seeing as the school are now working so hard.

So - that's where we are right now. He has a ridiculously small target of having to go to two maths lessons and stay in them before they break up on Thursday and I'm going back in at the beginning of next term to help set a new target. Fingers crossed.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2011)

Is it too late to blame the parent?


----------



## equationgirl (Dec 11, 2011)

Sounds like you're getting somewhere, madz - and those projected grades should show the difficult teachers that he shouldn't be written off. I hope he makes the target. Did you speak to her about him not getting the drum lessons?


----------



## madzone (Jan 19, 2012)

He's been excluded. They're liasing with another school to do a managed transfer.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 19, 2012)

madzone said:


> He's been excluded. They're liasing with another school to do a managed transfer.



For swearing? 

They sounded like they had his card marked.


----------



## madzone (Jan 19, 2012)

lizzieloo said:


> For swearing?
> 
> They sounded like they had his card marked.



It didn't stop. His behaviour has got worse and worse. They've given him loads of mixed messages but he's been acting like a little fucker for weeks now. He swore at loads of teachers today and kicked off all over the place. They've had enough. He might do better at the other school but it's 10 miles away.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 19, 2012)

What does he think?


----------



## madzone (Jan 19, 2012)

He doesn't know yet. He's out. I just had the phonecall this evening.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 19, 2012)

Oh gawd madz. Hugs.


----------



## moomoo (Jan 19, 2012)

Oh bloody hell.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 19, 2012)

From what you said earlier in this thread about the school he was at it could be a good thing, it depends on his reaction, is he the sort of kid that would wear an "expulsion badge" with pride?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2012)

depends on the design of the badge i suppose.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> depends on the design of the badge i suppose.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2012)

lizzieloo said:


>


haha


----------



## madzone (Jan 19, 2012)

lizzieloo said:


> From what you said earlier in this thread about the school he was at it could be a good thing, it depends on his reaction, is he the sort of kid that would wear an "expulsion badge" with pride?


No, he's going to be fucking furious. I said to him earlier that they were nearing the end of their tether with him and he went mental.  Mr madz has gone to pick him up now so it'll be fireworks for the rest of the night no doubt.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 19, 2012)

Fucking hell


----------



## Ceej (Jan 19, 2012)

Well late to this one, but you can contest the permanent exclusion if you want to, Madz. It could be argued that that your son has been discriminated against under the DDA - it could be deemed that his diagnois constitutes a disability. Do you have an advocacy service anywhere near you - you could contact Elfrida Rathbone in London and see if they know of a similar organisaton in your neck of the woods -  they are brilliant at supporting families having problems with schools, real bulldogs.

http://www2.elfridacamden.org.uk/

Good luck.


----------



## purenarcotic (Jan 19, 2012)

So sorry to hear that Madz, must be incredibly stressful.

I suppose you can only hope that the school he is moved to is better trained and equipped to deal with ADHD, so would actually be able to make some serious strides in improving matters.

Would he find it better to cope with the move if it was seen as a fresh start more than a punishment?  A sort of chance to wipe the slate clean, start afresh, start positive type of thing?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 20, 2012)

So sorry to hear this madzone 

Like purenarcotic says, more of a fresh start than a punishment? Better now than through his exams though, although sounds like his behaviour isn't helping things.


----------



## ymu (Jan 20, 2012)

Have you got documentary evidence of them failing to live up to their side of the bargain? They need challenging on this - and I have every faith that you're exactly the woman to do it.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 20, 2012)

oh madz  nothing helpful to add but have a cwtch x


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

I'm not going to challenge it. He's never going to thrive there and their mixed messages do _my_ head in let alone him.  The school he'll transfer to is an art based one so he may do better there anyway and he'll be away from a couple of people who really weren't doing him any good. It might all turn out for the best.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 20, 2012)

hope so


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jan 20, 2012)

I hope the new school is better for him madz x


----------



## Quartz (Jan 20, 2012)

I agree with the fresh start comments.


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

It's fucking brilliant here atm. My straight A boy flunked his fucking mocks and had the worst report he's ever had in his life on the same day as my youngest gets excluded. Apparently it's all my fault for being selfish enough to do a degree.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> It's fucking brilliant here atm. My straight A boy flunked his fucking mocks and had the worst report he's ever had in his life on the same day as my youngest gets excluded. Apparently it's all my fault for being selfish enough to do a degree.



Who's blaming you?


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

lizzieloo said:


> Who's blaming you?


The kids. Mr madz also had a go at me a few weeks back. Maybe I should have waited.


----------



## wtfftw (Jan 20, 2012)

No. I think you're setting a good example.

And you need to do something for you. as far as I can work out you basically hold everything together while running around after everyone else.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 20, 2012)

putting our entire lives on hold for the sake of the kids isn't good for any of us in the long run madz (_including_ the kids).


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> The kids. Mr madz also had a go at me a few weeks back. Maybe I should have waited.



 Really don't know what to say, it's like you're the family punchbag


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

lizzieloo said:


> Really don't know what to say, it's like you're the family punchbag


It certainly feels like it sometimes.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> It's fucking brilliant here atm. My straight A boy flunked his fucking mocks and had the worst report he's ever had in his life on the same day as my youngest gets excluded. Apparently it's all my fault for being selfish enough to do a degree.


Bloody hell. It's not like they are toddlers and totally dependant on you...
Sounds to me like they both need to think a little bit about personal responsibility.

I'm not sure that the school has followed to stages they must follow to permanently exclude a pupil, I think they are supposed to do one day, two day, week long blah blah blah. They're doing the managed transfer because they cant manage him and don't want to have an exclusion on their records. You could challenge it but I think it's probably better to go to a school who have staff experienced in deali with kids with ADHD(that's what he has right?)
If I were you I would tell the school that I would look into the school in question an it's suitability.
Then I would sit the whole family down and tell them that if they didn't stop treating me like a doormat that I would take the baby and leave. And i would too.
They seriously need to grow up and there's no reason on earth why you should put up with everybody blaming you for their cock ups


----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> The kids. Mr madz also had a go at me a few weeks back. *Maybe I should have waited.*



FUCK THAT, lady! 

That is the SINGLE fucking thing you do _for yourself_ in your life....really, really, REALLY fuck thinking shit like that, even for a second (and I reckon I'd just *go deaf* to any complaints about it if they can't see that for themselves...seriously let that fly right over your head, don't give it a thought...it's just bollocks that other people are only throwing at you in ridiculous, brattish attempts to defend their own failures  ). 

I hope the new school goes better.


----------



## rover07 (Jan 20, 2012)

How old is he? 

My advice would be to teach him at home and avoid all this stress.


----------



## spirals (Jan 20, 2012)

Madzone there will never be a right time for you to do something for you as far as they are concerned because then they'd have to step up and take responsibility and be held accountable for their own decisions and actions   I say this as nicely as possible but FUCK THEM! Your degree won't take forever and it's not like you are at uni 24/7! If they can't cope without you during the few hours a day (whilst they should be at school or working any way) then they need to learn how to sharpish because you won't always be there!  The only one you need to thinking for (probably) is the baby, the rest of them are surely able to organise themselves!

(there may be a slight element of transference in this post)


----------



## nagapie (Jan 20, 2012)

Good luck at the new school, you've got nothing to lose. Especially as with a managed move he'll be given a lot of support to start with, should be. Only problem with a managed move is he can be sent back if it doesn't work out.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 20, 2012)

rover07 said:


> How old is he?
> 
> My advice would be to teach him at home and avoid all this stress.



and do this how exactly when mr m is at work and madz is at college all week?


----------



## FaradayCaged (Jan 20, 2012)

When I said fuck off, and it wasnt even at the teacher, I got banned from the lesson for the rest of the year and it was in year 11 GCSE year. Cunt.


----------



## quimcunx (Jan 20, 2012)

Sounds like the current school just don't want to be bothered.  Hopefully the next one is better and you can be engaged more with them.

And bollocks should you give up your course.   I agree with shifty.   Tell 'em you're moving out with the baby if they don't buck up their ideas, laddos.


----------



## _angel_ (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> It's fucking brilliant here atm. My straight A boy flunked his fucking mocks and had the worst report he's ever had in his life on the same day as my youngest gets excluded. Apparently it's all my fault for being selfish enough to do a degree.


That's ridiculous, you could be working fulltime, would they blame you for that as well?


----------



## weepiper (Jan 20, 2012)

_angel_ said:


> That's ridiculous, you could be working fulltime, would they blame you for that as well?



Exactly, what they do and how they behave when they're at school is basically their own fucking problem, they're not babies and they should stop expecting to get away with behaving as if they are (IMsomewhatharshO)


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

Thanks everyone, I appreciate it. I know it's not reasonable and I know I don't deserve it but it still makes me feel like shit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 20, 2012)

I have nothing but awe, admiration and respect for you, Madzone.

And my offer to come down and kick some arse still stands - who looked after you during your recent flu in the end? Or have they forgotten about that?

It is not your fault. You have done nothing wrong.


----------



## wayward bob (Jan 20, 2012)

can you swing any extra support/extensions etc with your disability peeps if you feel you need to be home a bit more atm madz? obvs i totally understand if home is the _last_ place you wanna be right now


----------



## Ceej (Jan 20, 2012)

Wouldn't it be wonderful if you were so all-powerful, Madz, that your very presence would sort out their worlds? You're a convenient excuse for others totally failing to keep their end up.You're an absolute model of strength and endurance. And as for Mr.Madz.... ...helpful, not.


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

I wish I felt as strong as people seem to think I am 

Right now I just feel weak, stupid and unloveable.


----------



## madzone (Jan 20, 2012)

wayward bob said:


> can you swing any extra support/extensions etc with your disability peeps if you feel you need to be home a bit more atm madz? obvs i totally understand if home is the _last_ place you wanna be right now


Nail on head - I'd rather be anywhere but here. I get a physical lifting of stress when I get onto the bypass   I've got a pretty stressful asignment on the go atm but that gets handed in on Tuesday and then it's just self directed studio work till 8th Feb when the midstream assessments happen. Of course I've managed to convince myself that I'll be lucky to scrape a 2:2.


----------



## Glitter (Jan 20, 2012)

How is it YOUR  fault that THEY haven't done what they're supposed to do?

What's the justification?

Would not doing a degree stopped one from swearing and passed the exams of the other?


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> I wish I felt as strong as people seem to think I am
> 
> Right now I just feel weak, stupid and unloveable.


You are none of those things, madzone.

The others have to start pulling their weight and help you out. The only one who can't is your little girl! Those three are extremely capable of pushing the hoover round, sorting out a load of laundry or doing the dishes. It's about time they started.


----------



## SLK (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> My youngest got excluded for 3 days a couple of weeks ago for telling a teacher to fuck off. It ended up being 4 days because they can't go back into school until they've been interviewed be a senior member of staff and none were available.
> 
> So, he's done it again. He mumbled it at a teacher when she'd pissed him off and a passing teacher heard him. He has adhd and it mainly presents itself in hyperactivity but he also has major oppositional issues. The school deals out really heavy handed punishments for stuff like this and I think they paint themselves into a corner.
> 
> ...



Hard to say; obviously depends on context, and I understand as his mother you would be upset. It _seems_ harsh, especially considering ADHD. Remember, they're not enemies. Listen to them. If you think it is harsh, say so and why.

I don't think schools should have a tariff system.


----------



## SLK (Jan 20, 2012)

madzone said:


> The head isn't going to be happy. He knows I can't stand him and he also knows I can run rings round him in an argument (if I manage not to lose my temper first ) They make all this npise about being a modern school but they're still stcuk in the fucking dark ages when it comes to stuff like this.



With respect, I do think that this might be a part of the problem. And I mean you perceiving that as much as anything.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 20, 2012)




----------



## sheothebudworths (Jan 20, 2012)

With respect to yourself, SLK, this problem is older than this thread itself, let alone the posts you've quoted (read on?)....and madz _has_ listened _and_ spoken to them _and_ tried to find workable solutions each time....and it's gone beyond resolving this within that school now....but ultimately, this has been a clear case of the school failing to work consistently to support one of their pupils (alongside a willing, committed, involved parent)....and that is all.


----------



## madzone (Jan 21, 2012)

What Sheo said. This has gone on for months. It's actually been going on for years but since his diagnosis they've got much worse with saying they'll do one thing then doing another. He has never been given a significant amount of time to make any long lasting changes because the school keep changing the goalposts. Not every now and then but on a daily basis. I was in school for a meeting on Thursday and was told that if he 'misbehaved' again the punishment would be that he spent the next day in the LSR. That evening I got a phonecall saying he'd been excluded. He had been specifically told by the deputy head who I was in constant meetings with, that they wouldn't exclude him, no matter what he did. I know she said that because I was there. It reassured me that they realised that this wasn't going to change overnight.

He has to take responsibility for his own behaviour ultimately but he _does_ have adhd and reasonable adjustments need to be made for that. Some of his behaviour hasn't been adhd-related, it's been from sheer frustration at the way the school behave. Apparently the women who works in the LRC has already been slagging him off to the other kids. It deosn't surprise me in the least and kind of sums up what the school is like.

Interestingly, I have a lot of friends who have either sent their kids to his new school or who have kids there atm. No-one has a seriously bad word to say about the place. However, the school he's leaving is a whole different kettle of fish. Two friends of mine have taken their kids out and a woman I'm at uni with says she's nearing the end of her tether with them.

This is going to be hard and I'm angry, hurt and exhausted but I have my fingers crossed that the people at the new school might actually _listen _and hopefully be consistent in how they deal with him.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jan 21, 2012)

Sounds like he will be better out of that place, I wouldn't put my child in the care of people who behaved liked that towards him or in an environment which made him that frustrated. It's not good for him and it will teach him bad habits and poor lessons in how people ought to behave towards each other.
That said, he cannot be allowed to get a hint of the notion that it is your fault; it's important that he sees you as helping and supporting him. Allowing the idea that you might be responsible to take root will do nobody any good. Not just because it's obviously WRONG but because it's hurtful to you and it absolves him of his responsibility and the need to anticipate the consequence of his actions.

Is there any other school that might be suited to him? You might be able to find one closer and get the school to arrange a managed transfer to that school instead.


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Jan 21, 2012)

SLK said:


> Remember, they're not enemies.



Nor are they behaving as allies.


----------



## madzone (Jan 21, 2012)

ShiftyBagLady said:


> Sounds like he will be better out of that place, I wouldn't put my child in the care of people who behaved liked that towards him or in an environment which made him that frustrated. It's not good for him and it will teach him bad habits and poor lessons in how people ought to behave towards each other.
> That said, he cannot be allowed to get a hint of the notion that it is your fault; it's important that he sees you as helping and supporting him. Allowing the idea that you might be responsible to take root will do nobody any good. Not just because it's obviously WRONG but because it's hurtful to you and it absolves him of his responsibility and the need to anticipate the consequence of his actions.
> 
> Is there any other school that might be suited to him? You might be able to find one closer and get the school to arrange a managed transfer to that school instead.


The other schools would be out of the frying pan and into the fire. The school he's going to seems to deal better with people 'like us'. There's a possibility that the LA will provide transport to the new school. If they don't I'll be appealing. The old school ought to back us up in that at the very _least_.


----------



## lizzieloo (Jan 21, 2012)

How is he Madz?


----------



## madzone (Jan 21, 2012)

Angry. He's stopped taking it out on me though, which is something.


----------



## Looby (Jan 21, 2012)

Oh bloody hell madz. : ( I really hope the new school is better for him and things settle down a bit.


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 24, 2012)

I hope you are ok otherwise Madzone. I'm keeping my fingers crossed the new school is better for him.


----------



## sim667 (Jan 24, 2012)

If a student swears at me I kick them out, and tell them to come back when they're ready to be taught something..... do that once or twice and they normally sort it out.

I do work with 16-19 year olds though....

I hate giving out cause for concerns unless I really have to, mainly for attendance. I work at one college where the students act up all the time, the same college still writes reports and has parents evenings etc.

The other college doesn't do any of that really (i think they have one parent evening a year) and the students very rarely play up......

Ive still not got my head round that.


----------



## catinthehat (Jan 25, 2012)

If the staff are freed up from writing endless reports, filling in endless tick sheets and so on they probs have more time to actually talk with their students, nip things in the bud and so on.


----------



## sim667 (Jan 26, 2012)

Yes but you have to remember that talking to a student cannot be assessed using S.M.A.R.T objectives, and anything that cannot be assessed using S.M.A.R.T objectives should be discouraged in the education system.

[/sarcasm]


----------



## Riklet (Jan 30, 2012)

how's the sprog doing madzone?


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jan 30, 2012)

sim667 said:


> Yes but you have to remember that talking to a student cannot be assessed using S.M.A.R.T objectives, and anything that cannot be assessed using S.M.A.R.T objectives should be discouraged in the education system.
> 
> [/sarcasm]


Yes and of all of those letters the greatest is M for Measurement. Nothing matters now if it cannot be measured. It is the accountancy mentality that has taken over all of our lives, institutions and culture. Quantity and how many beans make five matters more than quality of experience.

Not only that but it is always the measurement of failure that is emphasised. How many days sick, absent, truanting, excluded. How many pupils failed to achieve the 'expected standard'* at any level of the system.

*'Expected standard' is a phrase invented to replace the 'average'  because when government spokespeople talked of the 30% who were below 'average' grades they would be ridiculed by people who know that it is statistically normal. If you cannot change reality invent a weasel word to avoid the issue.

I hope Madzone Junior gets satisfaction at the new school especially as it is so far away to travel.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 30, 2012)

Riklet said:


> how's the sprog doing madzone?



madz has scrambled her password, not sure if it's a permanent thing or if she'll be back at a later date when life has calmed down a bit


----------



## equationgirl (Jan 30, 2012)

weepiper said:


> madz has scrambled her password, not sure if it's a permanent thing or if she'll be back at a later date when life has calmed down a bit


Please tell her I wish her well, when you next speak to her (if that's ok?) - I miss her already.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 30, 2012)

equationgirl said:


> Please tell her I wish her well, when you next speak to her (if that's ok?) - I miss her already.



will do


----------



## Meltingpot (Jan 30, 2012)

weepiper said:


> *madz has scrambled her password*, not sure if it's a permanent thing or if she'll be back at a later date when life has calmed down a bit



Hope she's OK now.

I know this is offtopic but I've done that too when I've needed a break from here; it's a good facility. You end up with a pretty weird password when you come back though


----------



## weepiper (Jan 31, 2012)

Just passed on good wishes etc to madz on fb, she says he's done two days so far at the new school and seems to like it, and they've got transport sorted for him from next week, so fingers crossed all round


----------



## Pingu (Feb 3, 2012)

cba reading the thread - but picked up on madz stuff so best wishes to her before i post this.

had i swore at a teacher i know exactly what would have happened:

most lessons.. kicked out and probably suspended from school, meeting without coffee involving parents and then a kicking when you got home
geography - had wooden board rubber lobbed at me followed by a meeting without coffee..parents...kicking etc etc
Art - probably had a smack in the head, you didnt fuck with our art teacher. he taught art becasue he could draw but hated it. was really a sports teacher but to justify his role he also taught art. surprisingly he was actually quite a good art teacher but you didnt fuck about in his lessons.


----------



## madzone (Mar 17, 2012)

Seeing as I'm back for a minute I'll get you all up to speed with my domestic dramas 

The school itself is fab. There was one hiccup with a relief teacher who hadn't been briefed about his adhd but whereas the old school would have got defensive and suggested it wasn't their responsibility they held their hands up and admitted they'd fucked up. He got a detention the other day for being involved in some disturbance with a group of kids and a relief French teacher but they phoned me up and explained that the kids involved would lose their break during which the normal teacher would explain what they'd done and why it had pissed her off. She'd been  doing year 11 Oral assessments and she had to leave twice to sort the other kids out. She got the year 11's to  come and explain how it affected them as well. At the old school they got an hour detention after school and had to sit in silence facing the front and not writing or reading or anything. This sort of consequnces based stuff makes sense to him (and me) so it's a lot more positive. He's also been getting merits for his work and when he gets 10 merits he gets a pair of chinos 

The fly in the oitment is the travel. I'm in (yet another) pitched battle with the LA about it and it's gone to appeal. They offered us a taxi to the bus station at 7.15am which would just leave him there to get on the public bus. He'll just fuck off if they do that. The guy I spoke to about it is such a fucking jobsworth I suspect he wears a hi-vis vest to the office. He was so obstructive I put a formal complaint in about him and he tried to threaten me with the legal team (bless him ) It's costing us just under £50 a week to  get him to and from school at the moment so hopefully we'll be offered something a bit more workable after the appeal in April. I've got supporting letters from the Head of the  new school and CAMHS both saying what we've been offered transport-wise is unsuitable so fingers crossed....


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Mar 17, 2012)

madzone said:


> He's also been getting merits for his work and when he gets 10 merits he gets a pair of chinos


I suppose until then he has to go to school in his y-fronts...that'll learn him

thanks for the update, I like it when there is some encouraging news of old threads


----------



## ymu (Mar 18, 2012)

The new school sounds great!


----------



## Quartz (Mar 18, 2012)

Very glad to hear that things are going better.


----------



## trashpony (Mar 19, 2012)

Did you hear/read this today madz? I thought of you and your lad: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17404382


----------



## sim667 (Mar 20, 2012)

A student got a bit panicked by how far he was behind with work the other day and flared up and swore at a teacher, she kicked him out of the class and told him he'd be getting a cause for concern (where they have a meeting with the head of dept about their behaviour).

He's a really nice gentle lad, so I gave him ten mins and went and chatted to him, and he was genuinely sorry about doing it, and I suggested he might want to go apologise to the teacher, and told him infact he'd got the wrong end of the stick about what she'd said to him about his work.

So after the lesson we went and spoke to the teacher, and he was really nice about it and she explained about the work. But she still gave him the cause for concern anyway.

Now what fucked me off, is that its not my job to smooth things over like that, but I did, because I knew that wasnt him, and I knew the teacher would be a bit shaken up by it! But what's the point in him accepting he's done wrong and apologising if she's not even going to consider it. And if im completely honest its the type of teacher I'd end up swearing at if i was his age. Painfully patronising she is.

Treat them like kids, they'll act like kids, treat them like adults and they'll often act like adults. (im dealing with 16-19 though, although we have got students who are 20-24 who never seem to leave this place )


----------



## madzone (Mar 20, 2012)

trashpony said:


> Did you hear/read this today madz? I thought of you and your lad: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-17404382


That's exactly what they're doing at St Ives. They sell it as a way of it not being on the child's record but of course it isn't on their's either.


----------

