# Feminism- experiences of man-whispering and the refusal to do so...



## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2019)

Following on from  spanglechick 's post on another thread and the interesting points she and other's made...

I often refuse to _Man-whisper_, I can see that it's sometimes my default...in my life I have had so much more beef with men than women, particular alphas. Even as a heterosexual woman.

I was not nurtured to yield or whisper useless you actually wanted to (choice eh?) by the significant females in my life growing up... Wider society, shared culture, the patriarchy, of course all there and affecting but in personal everyday interactions my default isn't to demure myself...this has had a major impact on my relationships with men within and outside of my family.

What about you? 

How do you understand the idea of 'man whispering' in terms of female identity and safety?

How does that reflect on your own life and relationships?

ETA:



> “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty,





> sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message. A way that doesn’t challenge his ego. I know I find it useful.





> this fragility is yet another way to keep us silent and, I suppose, in our place, compliant with his wishes to be left alone to keep on doing it his way.





> I've given up "man whispering". It's too exhausting constantly trying to work out how to say things without bruising his ego or offending him.


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## Supine (May 17, 2019)

What is it?


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## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2019)

Supine said:


> What is it?




Good point..i'll add examples.


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## ska invita (May 17, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> One of my upper sixth came to see me last week because she and her boyfriend kept blowing up about him worrying about her too much and her wanting to put down some boundaries.  And as I was explaining all these ways of being heard, this “man whispering” that we all need to do in order to outfox men’s instinctive reaction to feel offended and shut down or get shouty, I said to her that I felt like a bad feminist, because she *should* be able to say “I don’t need looking after like you think I do. I was capable before we met.” and just be heard.
> 
> But sometimes it’s undeniably expedient to find a different way of delivering the message.  A way that doesn’t challenge his ego.  I know I find it useful. Interestingly, also in the office was a male colleague who said afterwards that he didn’t think it was a bad thing, that he recognises that women have these better communication skills (namnaw) and he’s grateful when his partner has used them on him.
> 
> Because of course he is.  Because he doesn’t have to learn or change himself.


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## SheilaNaGig (May 17, 2019)

It’s not you, it’s me... ( I don’t like you as much as I thought I would, I feel played and I want to get away from you without making you angry/hurt and then becoming all weird and stalkerish or talk shit about me)

It’s not that *you* don’t make me come, it’s more that I have a problem when I’m not able to... (What the fuck is this shit! There’s two of us here, slow down, pay attention!) 

It would be wonderful if sometimes, if you’re not too busy or preoccupied, if you could maybe... (rather than Sort it out ffs!)


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## spanglechick (May 17, 2019)

Heh.  So, I might explain a bit more.  

True to the spirit of NAMNAW, broth my father nor my ex husband needed special ways of phrasing things to avoid a row... but, having been increasingly frustrated by my partner’s insecurity-driven over-reaction if I try to brooch any topic that includes my unhappiness with what he has done, I resorted to communicating in a way that was entirely designed to hear the message without his instinctive emotional klaxon silencing further discussion.  I discussed this with my sisters and it seems to be not uncommon.


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## Treacle Toes (May 17, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> having been increasingly frustrated by my partner’s insecurity-driven over-reaction if I try to brooch any topic that includes my unhappiness with what he has done, I resorted to communicating in a way that was entirely designed to hear the message without his instinctive emotional klaxon silencing further discussion.  I discussed this with my sisters and it seems to be not uncommon.




Can you give an example of this? Even if made up I mean.


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## spanglechick (May 17, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Can you give an example of this? Even if made up I mean.


The biggest breakthrough involved me sending him a text, forbidding him from replying (he was working away overnight), telling him to read it again in the morning, and then if he still wanted to talk about it when he got home the next evening, we could.  

We never did discuss it, but all the issues about money that he’d been unable to hear from me for years, more or less got sorted, because he could finally hear the message and not the klaxon.


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## weepiper (May 18, 2019)

I have to do this all the time with Mr W. It's exhausting.


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## petee (May 19, 2019)

youse realize that men have no monopoly on this.


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## Santino (May 19, 2019)

petee said:


> youse realize that men have no monopoly on this.


Don't do this, please. This is just 'but what about the menz'.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

*files into box containing other such horrors such as manspreading and micro-aggressions.


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## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?


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## farmerbarleymow (May 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?



I've not heard of the term before, but from what I understand from the thread (and happy to be corrected here), it might be phrasing things in a way to soften the message to avoid a bloke reacting rather than saying what you think.


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## gentlegreen (May 19, 2019)

It's such a shame.
I'm still always surprised by the 40 year old chap at work come out with MRA shit - in spite of doing pretty well compared to the next generation - he's gone down the Jordan Peterson rabbithole.
A more enlightened place of employment would be difficult to find - maybe 50 percent (highly educated) women.
He seems a little over-protective (patronising) of his divorced mother ...

For me, I noted the appearance of "lad mags" in campus shops several decades ago - though I didn't anticipate what that generation of males would end up like.

Why would anyone be afraid of being challenged by anyone - male or female ?
It's a key aspect of how we learn and connects us to people.

That said, I have found myself in danger of being accused of "man-splaining" a couple of times when I've seen young female cyclists putting themselves in danger .. I see it more as old-splaining - and perhaps they'd see it that way.

Usually with male cyclists they're behaving like arseholes and that dictates the appropriate advice.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

farmerbarleymow said:


> I've not heard of the term before, but from what I understand from the thread (and happy to be corrected here), it might be phrasing things in a way to soften the message to avoid a bloke reacting rather than saying what you think.



So treading on eggshells, as it's usually called.


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## Pickman's model (May 19, 2019)

Man-whisperer: a super-subspecies of the female gender who has learned (through trial and error) to adopt a sympathetic view of her man's motives, needs and desires. She effectively negotiates a win-win resolution while using imperceptible key buzzwords, which inspire her man to satisfy her requests, all the while making it seem like his brilliant idea.

Donna Sozio & Samantha Brett, the Man-whisperer: a gentle results-oriented approach to communications (2011)


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## TopCat (May 19, 2019)

It's just managing someone. Applies to men and women.


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## Manter (May 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'm still not really clear on what it means. Is it an old thing with a new name? What is it?


Women second guessing what they say and how they say it to men. 

In intimate relationships to avoid emotional explosions or even physical violence. In professional contexts to avoid being written off as bitchy/aggressive/emotional etc. Etc etc


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## Sweet FA (May 19, 2019)

It's alright ladies, it doesn't exist.


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## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Sweet FA said:


> It's alright ladies, it doesn't exist.



Phew! I’ll get back to cleaning up the kitchen then


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## Baronage-Phase (May 19, 2019)

It absolutely exists.


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## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Lupa said:


> It absolutely exists.


He was being sarcastic


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## weepiper (May 19, 2019)

Do you know what, it's really very boring EVERY TIME women identify something that happens between us and men specifically that men pop up and dismiss it. Very very boring.


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## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Man-whisperer: a super-subspecies of the female gender who has learned (through trial and error) to adopt a sympathetic view of her man's motives, needs and desires. She effectively negotiates a win-win resolution while using imperceptible key buzzwords, which inspire her man to satisfy her requests, all the while making it seem like his brilliant idea.
> 
> Donna Sozio & Samantha Brett, the Man-whisperer: a gentle results-oriented approach to communications (2011)



This isn’t what’s being flagged up here.

It’s what Manter said.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

weepiper said:


> Do you know what, it's really very boring EVERY TIME women identify something that happens between us and men specifically that men pop up and dismiss it. Very very boring.



It's even more boring when someone takes a universal human experience and makes it gender specific so as to claim special victimhood status. And then invents a silly word for it.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This isn’t what’s being flagged up here.
> 
> It’s what Manter said.



If this is the case then ignore my previous post


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## wiskey (May 19, 2019)

Don't we do this with everyone though? I speak to my mum/boss/friends/husband/children in specific tailored ways to aid getting a good result.


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## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's even more boring when someone takes a universal human experience and makes it gender specific so as to claim special victimhood status. And then invents a silly word for it.




So we don't need Feminism at all then. Women and men are the same, treat eachother the same, are educated to have the same outlook and aspirations. Just another silly word we invented to claim special victim status?


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## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

It’s not just about getting a good result.

It’s actively avoiding a bad result. And the potential escalation that can follow.


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## Supine (May 19, 2019)

wiskey said:


> Don't we do this with everyone though? I speak to my mum/boss/friends/husband/children in specific tailored ways to aid getting a good result.



And men and women do it.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> So we don't need Feminism at all then. Women and men are the same, treat eachother the same, are educated to have the same outlook and aspirations. Just another silly word we invented to claim special victim status?



Not really what I said, but ok then.


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## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Not really what I said, but ok then.




Well it kind of is.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Well it kind of is.



Except that it's not.


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## Judelo (May 19, 2019)

I'm male and I have to be like this with my missus. You CANNOT be honest with her without getting grief.

How the fuck is it not valid/allowed to point that out?


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## Santino (May 19, 2019)

Jesus fucking Christ


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## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

JFC does this have to happen every single fucking time here? Yes it's a thing some men have to do with some women, no it's not a thing women have to do with all men, it's a bigger deal because power imbalance, greater incidence of male violence towards women than vice versa meaning more universal fear, patriarchy and FOR THE BILLIONTH FUCKNG TIME DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY. 

P.s. if you're taking it personally, have a think about that. 

For fucks sake.


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## Athos (May 19, 2019)

A bit of context, please.  Women are attacked, verbally and physically (sometimes to death) every week for saying 'the wrong thing' (be it refusing sexual advances, asserting their rights, nagging etc.).  And women, as a group, have learned a way to mitigate that risk - 'man-whispering.' Yes, some men might have to pussyfoot around their wives now and again, if they want a quiet life, but it's hardly equivalent.

ETA: beaten the point by Rebelda.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Athos said:


> A bit of context, please.  Women are attacked, verbally and physically (sometimes to death) every week for saying 'the wrong thing' (be it refusing sexual advances, asserting their rights, nagging etc.).  And women, as a group, have learned a way to mitigate that risk - 'man-whispering.' Yes, some men might have to pussyfoot around their wives now and again, if they want a quiet life, but it's hardly equivalent.



To be fair though, that wasnt the way the original post presented the concept. It was presented as a way of not upsetting someone's fragility or hurting their ego. The silly name also diminishes the seriousness of the issue


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## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

Hypothetical question - kind of hypothetical anyway - how _would _a man give an opinion based on personal and lived experience on this topic without it coming across as whataboutery?


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## Santino (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> To be fair though, that wasnt the way the original post presented the concept. It was presented as a way of not upsetting someone's 'fragility or ego


Fuck off, shut up , and actually accept you might be wrong about something.


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## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

Helpful.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Santino said:


> Fuck off, shut up , and actually accept you might be wrong about something.



Read my post again you numpty


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## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

There's a difference between the personal and the "wider" stuff though, surely? Or in different circles, i.e. in the workplace and at home?


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## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

So... I was at my older friend's house on Friday putting up some curtains for her. I got the ladder out and didn't hesitate to climb up it and get on with it...she laughed to herself and said 'Oh Ruti, you're such a tomboy!' I asked her why, she said 'because you can do all the things a man can, I bet your boyfriend loves you for that.' Now she is an older woman and of course I know why for her there were much more defined lines between gender roles and expectations.I talked to her about what it was like growing up, how my mum was a 'doer' too. How I come from a long line of women who just get on with it and who have been single mothers for one reason or another at different points in their lives and as a result had to get on with things...it got me thinking about this stuff again though.

More than once in my life in my intimate relationships with men the fact that I am very 'handy' when it comes to DIY and stuff that was traditionally seen as 'man's work' has been a bone of contention or concern for my partners. I remember one of them telling me straight 'You don't need me for anything, you can do it all, there's no space for me'...it was a really sad yet revealing moment...it lead us on to talk about identity and gender roles and what our expectations were in terms of our relationship... It also lead me to understand something that I didn't before about how I relate to some men and how they relate to me... I don't yield and demure myself, I don't make myself vulnerable, scared and needy... and some need me to.


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## Santino (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Read my post again you numpty


You're upset because women have been insufficiently careful around your ego, IN A THREAD ABOUT THAT TOPIC.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Santino said:


> You're upset because women have been insufficiently careful around your ego, IN A THREAD ABOUT THAT TOPIC.



I'm not upset in the slightest.


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## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> To be fair though, that wasnt the way the original post presented the concept. It was presented as a way of not upsetting someone's fragility or hurting their ego. The silly name also diminishes the seriousness of the issue



It's really annoying that a man has to come along and explain this to you for you to concede even an inch. Us women saying it isn't enough....and no, the name doesn't diminish the seriousness of it. You not liking it is all there is going on here.


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It's really annoying that a man has to come along and explain this to you for you to concede even an inch. Us women saying it isn't enough....and no, the name doesn't diminish the seriousness of it. You not liking it is all there is going on here.



Ok then


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## Pickman's model (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This isn’t what’s being flagged up here.
> 
> It’s what Manter said.


Yeh. I know. Outside the urban bubble mw seems a different thing from inside the urban bubble.


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## Pickman's model (May 19, 2019)

Judelo said:


> I'm male and I have to be like this with my missus. You CANNOT be honest with her without getting grief.
> 
> How the fuck is it not valid/allowed to point that out?


If you have to be dishonest with her perhaps your relationship is built on sand


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## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> To be fair though, that wasnt the way the original post presented the concept. It was presented as a way of not upsetting someone's fragility or hurting their ego. The silly name also diminishes the seriousness of the issue


 It's the same thing. One end of the scale is related to the other.


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## Baronage-Phase (May 19, 2019)

I am much more careful in the way I speak to certain men I have to deal with. I'm very aware that they are capable of making my life much more difficult. This has only happened me since I realised that saying things straight out earned me a whole lot of grief and left me feeling  very vulnerable. 
I'm not talking about within a relationship although I have had to hold back massively at times and say nothing rather than say the truth.. just to maintain someone else's peace... but I am talking very much about my workplace. 

I was reared to say what I believed in and not be afraid to speak up for myself. Unfortunately the world wasnt all on the same page. And I have run into the most horrendous problems in work when pointing out things that were really not ok. It didn't matter how I phrased it I was unable to be subtle enough for men in charge. It took another man saying it for them to listen. 

I have learned that I have to speak in a different way to men than to women in the workplace. I can come right out with stuff to women but I have to tippy toe round the men. Not all of them but enough to make me careful all the time. 

Its shit. Cos I know men just say things straight out between themselves and dont give a second thought. 

I think it has to do with the possibility that some men have a male ego that sees a negative comment made by a woman as a personal criticism of them... instead of just an observation. 

It's not in every line of work. But it does exist.


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## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> So... I was at my older friend's house on Friday putting up some curtains for her. I got the ladder out and didn't hesitate to climb up it and get on with it...she laughed to herself and said 'Oh Ruti, you're such a tomboy!' I asked her why, she said 'because you can do all the things a man can, I bet your boyfriend loves you for that.' Now she is an older woman and of course I know why for her there were much more defined lines between gender roles and expectations.I talked to her about what it was like growing up, how my mum was a 'doer' too. How I come from a long line of women who just get on with it and who have been single mothers for one reason or another at different points in their lives and as a result had to get on with things...it got me thinking about this stuff again though.
> 
> More than once in my life in my intimate relationships with men the fact that I am very 'handy' when it comes to DIY and stuff that was traditionally seen as 'man's work' has been a bone of contention or concern for my partners. I remember one of them telling me straight 'You don't need me for anything, you can do it all, there's no space for me'...it was a really sad yet revealing moment...it lead us on to talk about identity and gender roles and what our expectations were in terms of our relationship... It also lead me to understand something that I didn't before about how I relate to some men and how they relate to me... I don't yield and demure myself, I don't make myself vulnerable, scared and needy... and some need me to.


My boyfriends have never had an issue with it, but their friends/social circle/families have. Do


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## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. I know. Outside the urban bubble mw seems a different thing from inside the urban bubble.




Why did you just post up the definition from the pop-culture book then, without any kind of comment?

What point were you intending or hoping to make with that post?


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## ItWillNeverWork (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> It's the same thing. One end of the scale is related to the other.



Fair enough


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## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> My boyfriends have never had an issue with it, but their friends/social circle/families have. Do



Well it certainly hasn't been an issue with all of them, just two that I remember and them having a problem with it and how it played out in our relationship really helped me to understand that whilst 'being me' and just getting on with things feels like the most natural thing for others it wasn't...With other people, well yeah there have been incidents of it too.


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## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Hypothetical question - kind of hypothetical anyway - how _would _a man give an opinion based on personal and lived experience on this topic without it coming across as whataboutery?


'In my experience, albeit not on topic...'?

Honestly though, unless you're making a point relevant to feminism I suggest starting a thread in knobbing and sobbing about treading on eggshells in a relationship


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## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Hypothetical question - kind of hypothetical anyway - how _would _a man give an opinion based on personal and lived experience on this topic without it coming across as whataboutery?




How about this: if you have personal lived experience of what it feels like as a man to have to be cautious or even fearful in conversation with your female partner, use that lived experience and then add in the potential for violence.



And ffs it is possible to say “Oh yeah, I think I know what you’re talking about here, it sounds like something I’m familiar with, I’d be interested to know in what ways it’s similar or different to what I’m experiencing, and whether any insight can be gained by making the comparison” etc...

Rather than “Well it happens to me so what about me. It happens to men too so why aren’t we talking about  that. It happens to men so it isn’t especially significant for women”.

ETA Rebelda was more succinct than I.


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## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Well it certainly hasn't been an issue with all of them, just two that I remember and them having a problem with it and how it played out in our relationship really helped me to understand that whilst 'being me' and just getting on with things feels like the most natural thing for others it wasn't...With other people, well yeah there have been incidents of it too.


I was being flippant, but slightly less flippantly, even if you manage to meet someone who has kicked over some of the worst bits of the patriarchy, you are still living in a world sodden with it, so you get all that negative judgement


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## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

I have no patience for it personally. The thought of having to do it in a relationship fills me with rage 

Women in my job tend to not do it at all with other male professionals, maybe because it has to happen with all service users so the capacity gets spent? Generally it's not a problem, communication is accepted as direct and to the point. I've seen it go down badly with young male doctors though.


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## Poot (May 19, 2019)

It's the old adage, isn't it, that men are concerned that women will laugh at them, whereas women are concerned that men will kill them.


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## Pickman's model (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why did you just post up the definition from the pop-culture book then, without any kind of comment?
> 
> What point were you intending or hoping to make with that post?


I might ask you the same, with your enlistment of Manter's post, contributed after mine, to show what is under discussion. Or should I anticipate other people's posts? Seems to me from the early posts above there was some uncertainty of what's under discussion and outside the urban bubble the term seems, as I say, to possess a different meaning. Insofar as it is used at all. Read my post as 'I know now' which is what I meant in the light of manter's post


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## Sweet FA (May 19, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Hypothetical question - kind of hypothetical anyway - how _would _a man give an opinion based on personal and lived experience on this topic without it coming across as whataboutery?


He might do it on another thread? (Genuine, not being facetious). I mean if hypothetically, a man wanted to talk about how he has to woman-whisper to avoid conflict, it'd be a different topic.


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## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Athos said:


> A bit of context, please.  Women are attacked, verbally and physically (sometimes to death) every week for saying 'the wrong thing' (be it refusing sexual advances, asserting their rights, nagging etc.).  And women, as a group, have learned a way to mitigate that risk - 'man-whispering.' Yes, some men might have to pussyfoot around their wives now and again, if they want a quiet life, but it's hardly equivalent.
> 
> ETA: beaten the point by Rebelda.


The problem with these discussions is that the definition seems to be broadened way too far.

There is the managing of people, egos and personal relationships (which occurs on both sides) and then there is actual man whispering.

examples:
the woman who doesn't have her ideas listened to in the boardroom so has to lead a man into believing it was his idea in the first place.

Telling someone you ain't interested.

I'd agree the first is man whispering and it's sad we live in a society where it's necessary.

The second is just avoiding confrontation. We all do it on many levels. I've had to talk down men and women down from violence many times. 

I'll acknowledge that some men can get aggro with rejection if you acknowledge that some women do to.
I'll acknowledge that some men can get violent but the level of fear seems largely disprotionate to me. Like the fear of terrorism where people are petrified to the point of giving up their civil liberties but in reality you are far more likely to die in a car accident.


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## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

Ta for the replies.


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## Judelo (May 19, 2019)

Judelo said:


> EVERYONE has to be like this with my missus. NO-ONE can be honest with her without getting psychological violence (women tend to go more often down that road with their violence).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> The problem with these discussions is that the definition seems to be broadened way too far.
> 
> There is the managing of people, egos and personal relationships (which occurs on both sides) and then there is actual man whispering.
> 
> ...




What the fuck?!

The level of fear of male on female violence is disproportionate.

We’re exaggerating, making it up, being hysterical, over reacting.


It clearly hasn't occurred to you that :

Men threaten violence more often than they commit it

Women report domestic violence much less often than they experience it

The reason that potentially dangerous situation don't always escalate to outright violence is exactly because women have met the necessity to talk men down, avoid the trigger points and deflect their temper


..Personal stuff edited out...

I’m tempted to say fuck off, Gromit  but I’d rather have you out in the light where I can see you rather than hidden away in the dark fulminating your nasty bullshit.


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## seventh bullet (May 19, 2019)

Maybe not the exact same thing, but my  father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several.  She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.


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## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> What the fuck?!
> 
> The level of fear of male on female violence is disproportionate.
> 
> 1. We’re exaggerating, 2. making it up, 3. being hysterical, 4. over reacting.



1. No. And I never said that.
2. No. And I never said that.
3. No And I never said that.

Stop putting words in other people's mouths.

4. Yes some are over reacting. Treating ALL men as a threat when it's a minority that's to blame.

I will admit though that I'm talking about the UK and can't speak about other countries that are still in the middle ages as far a treating women are concerned.

Sorry to hear of your situation though.


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## Idaho (May 19, 2019)

I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.


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## TopCat (May 19, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.


Yeah it's about control and controlling others. Some people are totally toxic and most people will recognise them and avoid them  
Many people are sometimes toxic and people around them mange their behaviour. You have to be very careful though not to pander too much and toxic people are often adept at messing with your perceptions of what is reasonable.


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## TopCat (May 19, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.


Yeah and often totally overanalize others behaviour and reactions, never their own.


----------



## Santino (May 19, 2019)

'People'


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Judelo I think it's really important for men to discuss how they feel, what hurts their feelings and why, what makes them feel small, angry etc. But it needs to be initiated by men, not mediated by women on a thread explicitly about feminism. Every. Bloody. Thread. About. Feminism. Go and start one. Talk. It's a good idea


----------



## Judelo (May 19, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.


Not always, but often.


----------



## Judelo (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> Judelo I think it's really important for men to discuss how they feel, what hurts their feelings and why, what makes them feel small, angry etc. But it needs to be initiated by men, not mediated by women on a thread explicitly about feminism. Every. Bloody. Thread. About. Feminism. Go and start one. Talk. It's a good idea


At what point do we all come together though?


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Judelo said:


> At what point do we all come together though?


And like find solutions n stuff?!

That not what bulletin boards are about. It's about whining and blaming.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> 4. Yes some are over reacting. Treating ALL men as a threat when it's a minority that's to blame.


If some women treat ALL MEN (omg) as a threat because of some men, that's something men need to deal with isn't it? Get your house in order.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Judelo said:


> At what point do we all come together though?


Most of the rest of the time


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> If some women treat ALL MEN (omg) as a threat because of some men, that's something men need to deal with isn't it? Get your house in order.


How exactly? Give me some pointers on how I do my part.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> 1. No. And I never said that.
> 2. No. And I never said that.
> 3. No And I never said that.
> 
> ...



Saying that the level of fear amongst women about men is disproportionate to the real situation is the same as saying women are exaggerating, making it up, overreacting.

Use your own analogy about terrorism:

People who are fearful of bombs on the underground even though it happens rarely are exaggerating the risks. (Women who are fearful of men even though it happens rarely are exaggerating the risks)

People who worry that every rucksack contains a bomb are making it up, inventing danger where there isn’t any. (Women who worry that every man has the potential to assault her or degrade her is making it up, inventing danger where it doesn’t exist.)

People who change the way they live for fear of terror attacks are over reacting. (Women who change the way they react and deal with men because of fear of attack are over reacting.)

Do you really not see how this works?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> How exactly? Give me some pointers on how I do my part.




It’s like you can’t do joined up thinking.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> How exactly? Give me some pointers on how I do my part.


No. _Get your own house in order. _


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> No. _Get your own house in order. _


Like I said. All you want to do is whine. Offered the opportunity to actually advise all you do is point a finger.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Saying that the level of fear amongst women about men is disproportionate to the real situation is the same as saying women are exaggerating, making it up, overreacting.
> 
> Use your own analogy about terrorism:
> 
> ...


False logic.
Saying a reaction is disproportionate to the risk is not saying that the risk is inflated but that the reaction is inflated. Don't you see how this works?


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It’s like you can’t do joined up thinking.


It's like you have no answer.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> Like I said. All you want to do is whine. Offered the opportunity to actually advise all you do is point a finger.


I'm not whining. I'm saying I am not doing your legwork when my entire point was that women shouldn't have to. Do some fucking research. Even a search on here will probably find you an answer given once upon a time by a woman.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> Like I said. All you want to do is whine. Offered the opportunity to actually advise all you do is point a finger.


 Go away.please.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> I'm not whining. I'm saying I am not doing your legwork when my entire point was that women shouldn't have to. Do some fucking research. Even a search on here will probably find you an answer given once upon a time by a woman.


So we might as well end the thread as the answer to the OP is just fucking Google it. Ain't going to discuss solutions here.


----------



## polly (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> I'm not whining. I'm saying I am not doing your legwork when my entire point was that women shouldn't have to. Do some fucking research. Even a search on here will probably find you an answer given once upon a time by a woman.



He doesn't want an answer though. All he wants to do is whine.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Go away.please.


Hey I tried to engage. I politely asked how can I help? Got it thrown back in my face. Is it any wonder change is slow.


----------



## JimW (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> So we might as well end the thread as the answer to the OP is just fucking Google it. Ain't going to discuss solutions here.


Read to me like a discussion was developing until you stuck your oar in with demands for something you're not going to get. How about leaving it now and seeing where it goes without this dead-end back and forth?


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

polly said:


> He doesn't want an answer though. All he wants to do is whine.


I do want an answer. I am indeed whining that I'm not getting an answer. You're right. Thank you for correcting me.
I'll follow my own standard and suggest a solution. One of you feminists that knows so much more than me... Give me an answer.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

JimW said:


> Read to me like a discussion was developing until you stuck your oar in with demands for something you're not going to get. How about leaving it now and seeing where it goes without this dead-end back and forth?


It could have developed further but you're right the man hate is too strong and is standing in the way of it going any further. Had I been a woman asking what men can do I'd have gotten an answer. Just keep chatting amongst yourselves. It won't change anything if you don't involve all the stakeholders but hey if it makes you feel better.

I'm off.


----------



## polly (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> I do want an answer. I am indeed whining that I'm not getting an answer. You're right. Thank you for correcting me.
> I'll follow my own standard and suggest a solution. One of you feminists that knows so much more than me... Give me an answer.



You've successfully made this all about you. I know you're not genuine but here, do some reading. 320m results so that should keep you busy while the thread gets back to the subject of man whispering.


----------



## JimW (May 19, 2019)

That's the lowest start to taking the high road I've seen in a while.


----------



## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Judelo said:


> At what point do we all come together though?


On 23rd June, 2058. About 2pm, but we can firm up the details nearer the time


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 19, 2019)

Christ almighty, the state of some blokes on this thread 

Here’s a thought - if lots of women are saying this is a thing and a problem, maybe - just fucking maybe - _they might have a bloody point._


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> Hey I tried to engage. I politely asked how can I help? Got it thrown back in my face. Is it any wonder change is slow.


Oh no, did I not man-whisper enough. Should i have used more smiley faces. Diddums


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

Rutita1 did either you or spanglechick come up with "man-whispering" as a name for the behaviour?


----------



## kabbes (May 19, 2019)

Who’d have thought that the world’s worst bad faith troll on feminism might not get a ready-made pat answer that meets his satisfaction to his bad faith question about something people have been trying to figure out for at least 50 years?


----------



## petee (May 19, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Christ almighty, the state of some blokes on this thread
> 
> Here’s a thought - if lots of women are saying this is a thing and a problem, maybe - just fucking maybe - _they might have a bloody point._



a thing that i, at least, accept completely. i believe every account above from a woman poster about her interactions with their guys. but, again, men have no monopoly on this. my marriage crashed exactly because my wife simply could not engage in emotional talk. my every attempt to initiate difficult but necessary discussion was met with screaming finger pointing or dredging up ancient disputes in an attempt to sidetrack. only after she left did she admit what i had been concerned about, and I'm quoting here, "you can't know how much I drank and spent." 

guess what? I'm one of, oh, maybe a billion men in the same position. the adjective to describe that is "systemic."

a book that helped me was 
Stop Walking on Eggshells. 
worth a look from others, from the sound of what i read above.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Who’d have thought that the world’s worst bad faith troll on feminism might not get a ready-made pat answer that meets his satisfaction to his bad faith question about something people have been trying to figure out for at least 50 years?


The question was asked in good faith.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Christ almighty, the state of some blokes on this thread
> 
> Here’s a thought - if lots of women are saying this is a thing and a problem, maybe - just fucking maybe - _they might have a bloody point._


I never denied the problem.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 19, 2019)

Oh come on, do I have to do _another_ thread ban? Why not just leave it.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> Oh no, did I not man-whisper enough. Should i have used more smiley faces. Diddums


JimW asked me to leave it. So I did. Now you're gloating as if you somehow chased me off. 
I can stay if you'd prefer and we can continue going around in circles butting heads and going nowhere?

Point to a single instance where anyone has man whispered to me on here lol. Both barrels is what i get on her. Never man whispering.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Oh come on, do I have to do _another_ thread ban? Why not just leave it.


I said i was going,  they carried on at me. Let them decide whether they want me to stay or go. Surely i have a right to reply? I'm more than happy to leave it.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

You haven't left it though, you've kept droning on.


----------



## kabbes (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> The question was asked in good faith.


Fuck off, Gromit


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 19, 2019)

petee said:


> men have no monopoly on this


That.

Isn't.

The.

Point.

Here.


----------



## polly (May 19, 2019)

petee said:


> a thing that i, at least, accept completely. i believe every account above from a woman poster about her interactions with their guys. but, again, men have no monopoly on this. my marriage crashed exactly because my wife simply could not engage in emotional talk. my every attempt to initiate difficult but necessary discussion was met with screaming finger pointing or dredging up ancient disputes in an attempt to sidetrack. only after she left did she admit what i had been concerned about, and I'm quoting here, "you can't know how much I drank and spent."
> 
> guess what? I'm one of, oh, maybe a billion men in the same position. the adjective to describe that is "systemic."
> 
> ...



It's not about the men that we are in relationships with, though - or not for the most part. If I understand it properly, it's about how women have to negotiate and manage the potential for violence (verbal or physical) in their interactions with men they don't know, men they do know AND men they're with. And how often and quickly those become unpleasant at best, dangerous at worst if we don't. I'm sorry about your relationship but the subject you seem to want to get into only bears a slight similarity to the subject of the thread.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> JimW asked me to leave it. So I did. Now you're gloating as if you somehow chased me off.
> I can stay if you'd prefer and we can continue going around in circles butting heads and going nowhere?
> 
> Point to a single instance where anyone has man whispered to me on here lol. Both barrels is what i get on her. Never man whispering.


I'm saying I _haven't_ and you have, predictably, chucked your toys out the pram. If I'd massaged your ego while making my point I bet you wouldn't be griping. Please re-read the op. You seem to think the point of this thread is to teach men how not to lose their shit and ruin things when women don't kiss their arses. You don't seem to be able to understand the following: men taking responsibility for the "minority" (lol) includes not relying on women to tell you how.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> JimW asked me to leave it. So I did. Now you're gloating as if you somehow chased me off.
> I can stay if you'd prefer and we can continue going around in circles butting heads and going nowhere?
> 
> Point to a single instance where anyone has man whispered to me on here lol. Both barrels is what i get on her. Never man whispering.



That last line looks very like “Wah wah but I want a turn! When’s it going to be my turn? It’s not fair he gets a turn and I don’t!”

Part of the point is that there is no necessity to avoid bruising the male ego on here. There’s almost no risk of real world conflict. So on balance, left to our own devices, weighing up the pros and cons, calculating the cost : benefit ratio, when we know we can speak freely without risk, we mostly choose not to pander to hurt feelings.

Because we are making those calculations in our interactions with men.

The quicksilver thinking that follows the swift appraisal of how to say “no thanks” to the seedy bloke at the bus stop in a way that keeps us safe is a version of the same process we have to undertake at home.


----------



## Rebelda (May 19, 2019)

I won't reply to him again. Promise.


----------



## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> It could have developed further but you're right the man hate is too strong and is standing in the way of it going any further. Had I been a woman asking what men can do I'd have gotten an answer. Just keep chatting amongst yourselves. It won't change anything if you don't involve all the stakeholders but hey if it makes you feel better.
> 
> I'm off.


‘Man hate’.... a fair % of the women on this thread are straight, in long term relationships with men, have male children, have brothers, fathers etc who they love. It’s not about mane hate- it’s about hating this ridiculous, reductive histrionics.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> ‘Man hate’.... a fair % of the women on this thread are straight, in long term relationships with men, have male children, have brothers, fathers etc who they love. It’s not about mane hate- it’s about hating this ridiculous, reductive histrionics.


In the past it's been explained on urban that a white person can marry a black person and still be racist.
I guess the same arguement can be used against you here.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That last line looks very like “Wah wah but I want a turn! When’s it going to be my turn? It’s not fair he gets a turn and I don’t!”
> 
> Part of the point is that there is no necessity to avoid bruising the male ego on here. There’s almost no risk of real world conflict. So on balance, left to our own devices, weighing up the pros and cons, calculating the cost : benefit ratio, when we know we can speak freely without risk, we mostly choose not to pander to hurt feelings.
> 
> ...


If being subjected to both barrels on a regular basis was a wah wah thing for me I'd have left urban long ago don't cha think?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 19, 2019)

I thought the point here was not that this is some sort of thing that only women always do with only all men (of course not) but the specific social context of it existing between women and men and how it has come to be default and often transparent behaviour in many areas, how that expectation is passed on, how it affects personal relationships, that sort of thing. I mean that sounds like a reasonable area to talk about.


----------



## Gromit (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> I won't reply to him again. Promise.


Yeah we can try this again.

I'm off.

I'll stay off if people don't give me a need to use my right of reply to defend myself.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 19, 2019)

You silly penis.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> I won't reply to him again. Promise.




This


----------



## Manter (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> In the past it's been explained on urban that a white person can marry a black woman and still be racist.
> I guess the same arguement can be used against you here.


You really are incredible. Every time I try and give you a chance you show why that is completely pointless


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> In the past it's been explained on urban that a white person can marry a black woman and still be racist.
> I guess the same arguement can be used against you here.


Life skills tip - a shovel is not the best way out of a hole.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 19, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Maybe not the exact same thing, but my  father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several.  She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.




I really want to reply to this so am quoting as a reminder to myself. This _dynamic_ has had a major influence on me from within my own family .


----------



## Edie (May 19, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Maybe not the exact same thing, but my  father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several.  She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.


Certain this is a very sensitive subject but can you give an example, do you mean avoiding confrontation? and what kind of effect did that have on you? If you don’t want to answer I understand xx (it’s just there’s been a fair bit of violence from my ex towards me and my eldest son and one of the many many criticisms social services made about me in the child protection report was around similar themes).

I’ve not heard it called man whispering before but I’m a fucking world class expert at not getting into fights with a drunk man


----------



## Edie (May 19, 2019)

Idaho said:


> I have found that people who kick off unless everything is sugar coated for them are always the people who never compromise or sugar coat anything themselves. Tolerate my intolerance, as it were.


Yes!!!!! Why _is_ that?!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (May 19, 2019)

Edie said:


> Yes!!!!! Why _is_ that?!


Because twats, when you boil it down to the basics.


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2019)

It can be akin to the "boiled frog syndrome". I once found I was managing another far too much when I got pissed and stopped any effort. Cue rage and violence. Scared the crap out of me.


----------



## Sweet FA (May 19, 2019)

Gromit said:


> it's a minority that's to blame


I honestly think this is the fundamental flaw in your 'thinking'. 



Gromit said:


> How exactly? Give me some pointers on how I do my part.


On this thread, really?


----------



## TopCat (May 19, 2019)

Edie said:


> Yes!!!!! Why _is_ that?!


They think they are always right.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 19, 2019)

TopCat said:


> They think they are always right.




Not as much or as thoroughly or as passionately as they believe that you are wrong.

Or desperately want you to be.


----------



## Idaho (May 19, 2019)

Santino said:


> 'People'


If gender roles are learnt and not innate, as is generally agreed by saner "people", then "people" is the correct term. We can all learn and adhere to these roles. 

Unless you are hinting at something altogether different?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Not as much or as thoroughly or as passionately as they believe that you are wrong.
> 
> Or desperately want you to be.


Or they want you to think you are


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Rutita1 did either you or spanglechick come up with "man-whispering" as a name for the behaviour?



I copied it from the other thread after spanglechick used it to describe a dynamic I recognised and have experience of hence me re-using it here.


----------



## JuanTwoThree (May 20, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I thought the point here was not that this is some sort of thing that only women always do with only all men (of course not) but the specific social context of it existing between women and men and how it has come to be default and often transparent behaviour in many areas, how that expectation is passed on, how it affects personal relationships, that sort of thing. I mean that sounds like a reasonable area to talk about.



This. It strikes me that this is something that few men and most women have to do to deal with most men and few women. So discussion about the exceptions is not the point.


----------



## Spymaster (May 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Or they want you to think you are


Or they want you to think they think you are.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2019)

Spymaster said:


> Or they want you to think they think you are.


i had in mind gaslighting, i have no idea what you have in mind but suspect you're posting from wetherspoon's marvellous metropolitan bar

happy birthday!


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> Maybe not the exact same thing, but my  father was both emotionally and physically abusive towards my mother, and I think its lasting effects on her have been present in how she has dealt with both myself and my brother, something which didn't become apparent to me, at least, until I 'grew up .' What I mean is her ways of treating situations in which a younger me may have been in need of telling straight about my behaviour (and I took her for granted for many years) but in a way so as to not elicit a reaction which, in the past, might have meant a punch or several.  She learned it to survive, at great cost to her own internal well-being.




I recognise this. My mother's first marriage ended because of emotional and sometimes physical abuse. My mum, so depressed and disturbed by the treatment that she described out of body experiences, where she hovered just above herself looking down watching everything from above, making sure she didn't put a foot wrong' She also used walk with her head down when in the street as that was easier than getting accused of looking at x, y, or z bloke who she must have been having an affair with etc.

Anyway...growing up, it was near on impossible to imagine my mother had suffered domestic abuse. I came along 4 years after she'd left her first husband, the mum I grew up to know was confident, fierce, capable, took no shit whatsoever from men in general and if the truth be told could be really scary as she had a short fuse and prone to violent outbursts. If you were close enough you would absolutely get a beating. However, I can't ever remember her beating my brothers. Myself and my sister, yes...nt one memory of my brother's copping it though.

One of my brothers is really _Alpha_ in the aggressive way they can be; he lacks patience and charm so he just bulldozers and intimidates to get his own way, not exclusively with, but especially with women. I used to get so pissed off with my mum because it seemed she was just spoiling him and letting him get away with shit he needed to be pulled up on. I came to realise it was _fear_ that stopped her. Especially as he got older, bigger, unpredictable. She never ever forgot the 'fear' her first marriage instilled in her where she learnt to agree, appease, flinch, do or say anything to manage and contain _the threat_.


----------



## joustmaster (May 20, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> JFC does this have to happen every single fucking time here? Yes it's a thing some men have to do with some women, no it's not a thing women have to do with all men, it's a bigger deal because power imbalance, greater incidence of male violence towards women than vice versa meaning more universal fear, patriarchy and FOR THE BILLIONTH FUCKNG TIME DON'T TAKE IT PERSONALLY.
> 
> P.s. if you're taking it personally, have a think about that.
> 
> For fucks sake.


Thanks. This helped a lot. I was struggling to understand.

It's the exactly same thing that men deal with, but men don't have the risk associated with it that women do.

Cheers!


----------



## Manter (May 20, 2019)

joustmaster said:


> Thanks. This helped a lot. I was struggling to understand.
> 
> It's the exactly same thing that men deal with, but men don't have the risk associated with it that women do.
> 
> Cheers!


I genuinely think women do it more. It’s not just because we don’t want to get battered, it’s also because we are supposed to be more social, nurturing etc, so from a very young age we are taught to watch and second guess and soothe and charm and so on. It is our ‘role’ in society. Many kick against it, NAMNAW etc but it’s what I observe around my daily life 

Obviously I’ve not been brought up and lived as a both a boy/man and girl/woman, so this is observed


----------



## seventh bullet (May 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I recognise this. My mother's first marriage ended because of emotional and sometimes physical abuse. My mum, so depressed and disturbed by the treatment that she described out of body experiences, where she hovered just above herself looking down watching everything from above, making sure she didn't put a foot wrong' She also used walk with her head down when in the street as that was easier than getting accused of looking at x, y, or z bloke who she must have been having an affair with etc.
> 
> Anyway...growing up, it was near on impossible to imagine my mother had suffered domestic abuse. I came along 4 years after she'd left her first husband, the mum I grew up to know was confident, fierce, capable, took no shit whatsoever from men in general and if the truth be told could be really scary as she had a short fuse and prone to violent outbursts. If you were close enough you would absolutely get a beating. However, I can't ever remember her beating my brothers. Myself and my sister, yes...nt one memory of my brother's copping it though.
> 
> One of my brothers is really _Alpha_ in the aggressive way they can be; he lacks patience and charm so he just bulldozers and intimidates to get his own way, not exclusively with, but especially with women. I used to get so pissed off with my mum because it seemed she was just spoiling him and letting him get away with shit he needed to be pulled up on. I came to realise it was _fear_ that stopped her. Especially as he got older and bigger, unpredictable. She never ever forgot the 'fear' her first marriage instilled in her where she learnt to agree, appease, flinch, do or say anything to manage and contain _the threat_.




Thanks for posting.  Yep, it's what I was meaning earlier.  I hated my dad for what he did but didn't realise how it had affected her when it came to me and my brother until I was older and dare I say mature, gaining some self-awareness. We could be right pieces of shit. I'll reply more fully to you and Edie later on.  Need to rest after work.


----------



## joustmaster (May 20, 2019)

Manter said:


> I genuinely think women do it more. It’s not just because we don’t want to get battered, it’s also because we are supposed to be more social, nurturing etc, so from a very young age we are taught to watch and second guess and soothe and charm and so on. It is our ‘role’ in society. Many kick against it, NAMNAW etc but it’s what I observe around my daily life
> 
> Obviously I’ve not been brought up and lived as a both a boy/man and girl/woman, so this is observed



Cool.
I read through more pages after replying and tried to filter out the angry shouting.
 I shouldn't say "exactly" in my above post. As I can now see a lot of times it would be needed to deal with sexism too.

Its been hard trying to understand why it had the word man in it and what the differences might be.
Obviously if loads of people are saying it's a thing and I don't understand what they're talking about, it's a concern.

So thanks to the people who have shared personal stuff to help.


----------



## Santino (May 20, 2019)

Idaho said:


> If gender roles are learnt and not innate, as is generally agreed by saner "people", then "people" is the correct term. We can all learn and adhere to these roles.
> 
> Unless you are hinting at something altogether different?


In a thread specifically begun to discuss the female experience of male egoism and violence, it is more than a little disingenuous to start discussing this as a particular character trait of 'people' rather than a structural issue about men and women. You don't make any progress by pretending that gender is irrelevant.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

Santino said:


> ..... the female experience of male egoism and violence....



I think it’s important to understand that we’re talking about emotional violence here too. Not only the physical stuff, whether that’s implied or really happens, but also the raised voice the nasty slurs the grim black scowls the foul temper the sullen sulking and petulant withdrawal of decency the bullish stubborn  insistence that his mood states are deferred to, all of which compel us to change course, to change our own emotional status in order to tend to his.

It is walking on eggshells, but it’s more than that. It’s the necessity not only to make sure he doesn’t get even  more pissed off, and also to actively work towards bringing him back to something approaching decency. We do that by staying out of his way, but also by trying to woo him and cajole him, by word or deed, with our behaviour and little gifts. That’s the whispering part for me: the hard cautious incremental work of trying to charm him back to a state of mind that’s not scary and threatening.


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## Cloo (May 20, 2019)

It’s not really ‘man whispering’ but I’ve only come to realise in the last few years that, while my mum is great on some many levels, she was wrong about one thing she advised me. She was always ‘Oh, you and I are the peacemakers’ and that you had to compromise ‘for an easier life’ etc. I didn’t grow up seeing my parents argue, I think in large part because mum tended to keep the peace.

I’m married to someone from a family where everyone responded to things by yelling more than everyone else, and it’s taken me a long time, but I’ve learned to stand my ground when I am right (and I do give way if I’m not) and even if the outcome has been uncomfortable sometimes, I am always glad that I did it. And more often the outcome has been extremely positive, rather than trying to compromise or give way. I just don’t want to teach my kids that you give way to the angry, shouty person – and sometimes you might turn out to have misread the situation and be wrong, and so be it, you learn from it. But I think it’s improved my other half’s anger management also (on top of his own efforts, I hasten to add)


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## polly (May 20, 2019)

It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time. 

It is *not* the same thing as tiptoeing around your nearest and dearest. Not not not not not.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time.



Bloody hell.


----------



## weepiper (May 20, 2019)

Jesus polly


----------



## polly (May 20, 2019)

It was ok - I was furious af, put the fire out quickly and chased him and his friends out of the club, shrieking like a banshee, followed by some bouncers  But even though it was a bit of a shock, it just seemed to be pretty standard behaviour. Which is the point really - on the whole I've been very lucky in my transactions with men: never been raped, rarely been sexually assaulted, got a good partner, turned invisible before dick pics and online sexual harassment became a thing. But I'd largely forgotten about being set alight because it was just one nasty event among so, so many.

It really boils my piss to see men equating this constant state of vigilance towards men's feelings,_ especially as very young women or even girls _(actually roughly 12-16 is when you get the most unwanted male attention ime), with the negotiating that we all do (some to a greater extent than others, granted) in our relationships. It's not just the added risk of physical harm. It's that it is fucking_ constant_, from everywhere, all the time, from the outwardly benign to the obviously threatening. It's even the fact that men feel entitled to your time when you're trying to get somewhere - when I was good mates with someone blonde and big breasted who liked to dress skimpily, it would take us forever to get from A to B, because we'd have to give numerous men the fucking time of day. And we would have to 'man whisper', because a straight up 'go away' would lead to such drama that it would take up even more of your time.

Tbh all these feminism threads just make me too angry and depressed to deal, and I take my hat off to all you women and men making brilliant and eloquent posts in the face of whataboutery, distraction techniques and just _crap_ from posters who should know - and do - better.


----------



## Glitter (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> Which is the point really - on the whole I've been very lucky in my transactions with men: never been raped, rarely been sexually assaulted,



Lets just stop and think about this for a minute.

Lucky.

And you’re right, you are  

So blokes bleating on with your #metoo bollocks just stop and consider that this is the fucking BENCHMARK and wind your necks in.


----------



## Cloo (May 20, 2019)

See, that thing of being scared a bloke might turn on you if rejected was a thing I never got the memo about. Ditto, when I read things about how women change where they go, what they do because of fear of men is not something I ever felt, and I have wondered why. Obviously, there is the fact I have had the good fortune never to have been sexually assaulted, nor have I even been harassed much. There’s also, perhaps, that all my mates were male when I was a kid and I was very late to any kind of interest in sex (I relented and started when I was 21, more out of curiosity than anything else). I didn’t think of men as all that different to me and I generally assumed they weren’t sexually interested in me. I never thought much of it if a bloke talked to me; and if he came on to me I never thought anything of saying I wasn’t interested or I didn’t want to talk to them right now. Just did not occur to me to feel threatened and to not just tell them it wasn’t going anywhere.

This is not, of course, because ‘all women should be sensible like me and stop being neurotic’- I'm a bit weird like thatl it was my naivete, plus the fact very few men have ever come on to me (as far as I realised); and I guess I was fortunate that none of the guys I turned down ever was abusive or violent to me in response.


----------



## Gromit (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time.
> 
> It is *not* the same thing as tiptoeing around your nearest and dearest. Not not not not not.


I've smacked a lighter out of someone's hand because he was going to burn a woman's hair as a joke.
He's done it to men and it just fizzles straight out.
I pointed out women wear hairspray and they go up like torch the daft twat.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

Oh good. We can stop using hairspray. That will make us safer against assault with fire. Top tip.


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## Cloo (May 20, 2019)

Glitter said:


> Lets just stop and think about this for a minute.
> 
> Lucky.
> 
> ...


I’ll confess, for a long time I couldn’t believe it was *really* that bad for women because it never happened to me and my mates (when actually, I have to say, I didn’t have close and confiding friendships so I honestly couldn’t tell you if it had happened to my mates or not) and weren’t other women being oversensitive and oooh wasn’t I smarter and more rational than them, but you know what. I believe women. Simple as that. There’s enough people saying it that it’s fucking true whether I have experienced it or not.


----------



## Glitter (May 20, 2019)

Cloo said:


> I’ll confess, for a long time I couldn’t believe it was *really* that bad for women because it never happened to me and my mates (when actually, I have to say, I didn’t have close and confiding friendships so I honestly couldn’t tell you if it had happened to my mates or not) and weren’t other women being oversensitive and oooh wasn’t I smarter and more rational than them, but you know what. I believe women. Simple as that. There’s enough people saying it that it’s fucking true whether I have experienced it or not.



I think as well the post you just made, where you’ve almost had to justify to other women why that hasn’t been your experience is basically man whispering by proxy. 

You shouldn’t have to justify it. Your experience should be all our experience. I wish it was.


----------



## TopCat (May 20, 2019)

Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 20, 2019)

Gromit said:


> I've smacked a lighter out of someone's hand because he was going to burn a woman's hair as a joke.
> He's done it to men and it just fizzles straight out.
> I pointed out women wear hairspray and they go up like torch the daft twat.


I'm terrible at reading hints and clues, but even I can see this is not at all the place for your Hot Takes on feminism and anecdotes of how you were essentially Sir Galahad on one occasion in 1986 or w/e. 
You said you were not going to continue posting on this thread. Kindly keep that promise.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 20, 2019)




----------



## polly (May 20, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


>



So boring, isn't it.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> So boring, isn't it.



I don't know if people think they're being funny.  You've just shared a bloody horrible story about some cunt in a club setting you on fire, and someone comes along and whines about PMT.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.


wait a minute and i think gromit will oblige.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.




Might it be possible that a woman who is tired, wrung out, possibly in pain, and dealing with an overload of emotional-changing hormones is someone who is going to be less patient, less equitable, less willing to suck up the bullshit than the rest of the month when she has to wrangle the housework, her own work and all the emotional labour in the household?

How about the possibility that it’s not that the woman is more pissed off than she usually is, but instead that her threshold of tolerance is lower than normal. Maybe she’s this pissed off all the time but more able to deal with that, more able to do the work of man-whispering.

One week off in a month of swallowing down the irritation seems like something men might allow.


ETA  Disclaimers NAMNAW I don’t know about your personal circumstances and yes, some women are worse affected than others by PMT


But ffs if we’re going to start using PMT as a reason not to pay attention to the issues I think we’re close to losing this battle.


----------



## polly (May 20, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I don't know if people think they're being funny.  You've just shared a bloody horrible story about some cunt in a club setting you on fire, and someone comes along and whines about PMT.



Trying to get a rise/be edgy, I guess. Material is so old though.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (May 20, 2019)

Most unsuccessful man whispering session happened when I was 19 and had missed the last bus back to my house from Morden Station. 

I say missed. It was dark and the bus driver didn't see me in the bus stop and drove straight past me leaving me to take a 20 minute walk home alone along a fairly main road. I wasn't drunk (maybe a bit stoned), I'd been visiting my friends that evening. 

Anyway this guy appeared from the shadows and started following me and insisted that he walk me home. He made me jump. He said that a pretty girl like me shouldn't be walking home in thr dark because there are so many weirdos about and you know what men are like.... Totally lacking any sort of self awareness 

I tried to get him to leave quietly, told him that I didn't live far, that I live on a well lit main road, that I know the area, that my parents are awake and waiting for me. NOTHING I could say would put this man off and I had no choice but to let this dude walk with me, for 20 minutes all the way home. 

I found out stuff about him, he was from Morocco, his trade was making rugs.. He was single (of course ). He wanted me to visit his rug shop, that Morocco is so beautiful and I should go with him.  The longer I walked with him the creepier and creepier he became until I genuinely started to worry for my safety. 

He kept asking me where I lived.. "not far now.." I kept saying "I live on this road" and I did. It was a very long, very main, well lit b-road. I started to suspect that this guy had sinister motives and I still think that I was right, because when I did actually say "this is my house, bye" he looked genuinely shocked and disappointed that I hadn't been lying to him, and that I did actually live on a main road.

Anyway, he STILL refused to leave me alone and when I told home he couldn't come in in many variations "My parents are home, and they're asleep.. You can't come in" and stood outside and INSISTED that I give him my phone number because he was "so nice man that I walked you home". I scribbled down any old rubbish (I didn't have a mobile at the time) and he fucked off.

I think I lucked out there. I've never been so scared before, but it was exhausting trying to be "nice" not rocking the boat because I didn't know if this guy was going to rage out or not, pretending to be relaxed and cool and not appear vulnerable. Saying "I'm not interested" in as many kind ways as possible and put the message across kindly.

It's ridiculous that I couldn't say "fuck off mate, stop following me, leave me alone" but the reality is that in that you do what you can to get yourself out of danger. And a lot of the time that is man whispering so they aren't given the opportunity to pounce. 

Anyway, I say it was unsuccessful because I was very uncomfortable for 20 minutes and failed to at getting him to leave me alone. However nothing happened to me so... I guess it worked. 

For the next two weeks I was concerned that the dude would show up outside my house, but he never did.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.




 Maybe you’re taking the piss with this?



By the way, women do recognise that having to deal with us when we’re premenstrual can be a serious issue in some relationships.

There’s a huge thread where women are sharing stuff about periods, please do make a thread about what it’s like for the men. I’d be genuinely interested to read it.

And as an aside -  because it occurs to me that you really might not know - the stuff that becomes public about our experience of having a period is the stuff that is not being dealt with internally, what is beyond our capacity to handle privately. It’s the tip of the iceberg. Whatever is on the outside in terms of behaviour and reactions is over and above what we’re dealing with internally : physically, emotionally, mentally.

I remember once going for a walk with a boyfriend, who commented on the way I was walking. He asked me if I was injured. No, I replied, I was favouring my belly because of menstrual cramps: walking like this made it less painful. He said he’d never known I experienced cramps. Because it wasn't ever bad enough to talk about, only painful enough to change the way I moved my body for a few days a month.


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.



How many times do you 'men' people need to be invited to start your own threads to explore your human condition and experiences until you actually do it? 

You won't though will you? Why is that? What is the payoff to continue to do this stuff here?


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Surprised no one has mentioned the widespread experience of treading on eggshells around a woman who has PMT.




Also...the whole PMT thing is a common insult as well isn't it? I have turned attention down before and the response was 'what's the matter, you on the blob?' Yeah that must be the reason eh.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 20, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Most unsuccessful man whispering session happened when I was 19 and had missed the last bus back to my house from Morden Station.
> 
> I say missed. It was dark and the bus driver didn't see me in the bus stop and drove straight past me leaving me to take a 20 minute walk home alone along a fairly main road. I wasn't drunk (maybe a bit stoned), I'd been visiting my friends that evening.
> 
> ...



I had a similar experience when I was in my 20s and lived on my own.  The fucker actually DID turn up outside my flat a few times, and I had to pretend to be out.  Scared the hell out of me.


----------



## TopCat (May 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Might it be possible that a woman who is tired, wrung out, possibly in pain, and dealing with an overload of emotional-changing hormones is someone who is going to be less patient, less equitable, less willing to suck up the bullshit than the rest of the month when she has to wrangle the housework, her own work and all the emotional labour in the household?
> 
> How about the possibility that it’s not that the woman is more pissed off than she usually is, but instead that her threshold of tolerance is lower than normal. Maybe she’s this pissed off all the time but more able to deal with that, more able to do the work of man-whispering.
> 
> ...


Why use PMT as a reason not to pay attention to the issues? Who suggested that? PMT is a reality for millions of women and it can impact on women, men, girls and boys. Managing women with PMT is a reality for women men girls and boys. Treading on eggshells a widespread experience.


----------



## TopCat (May 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> How many times do you 'men' people need to be invited to start your own threads to explore your human condition and experiences until you actually do it?
> 
> You won't though will you? Why is that? What is the payoff to continue to do this stuff here?


This is not about men. PMT can affect the whole family and friends group and colleagues too. Why dismiss this?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (May 20, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I had a similar experience when I was in my 20s and lived on my own.  The fucker actually DID turn up outside my flat a few times, and I had to pretend to be out.  Scared the hell out of me.



It's absolutely fucking exhausting. 

Still, it's good to know that there are anti-female men like Top-Cat who would have rushed in to tell me how my PMT is making me Irritable and that I should stop shouting late at night and waking the street up, should I have decided not to man whisper.

We all see what you are Top-Cat and you aren't coving yourself in glory. We see you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This is not about men. PMT can affect the whole family and friends group and colleagues too. Why dismiss this?




It's really ingrained isn't it? The desire/need to undermine and control women. The need to be right and in charge and 'don't you fucking dare do anything that I am not the centre of because if you do etc. etc...' This tactical reminding us of our periods and PMT, it's a backhanded way of putting us in our place and reminding us of our 'biological weaknesses'... Well done.


----------



## TopCat (May 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It's really ingrained isn't it? The desire/need to undermine and control women. The need to be right and in charge and 'don't you fucking dare do anything that I am not the centre of because if you do etc. etc...' This tactical reminding us of our periods and PMT, it's a backhanded way of putting us in our place and reminding us of our 'biological weaknesses'... Well done.


This is all in your own head. Beyond projection and zero self awareness.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> This is all in your own head. Beyond projection and zero self awareness.



#Gaslighting like a good'un. So glad you are here to show us where we are going wrong.


----------



## Santino (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> Why use PMT as a reason not to pay attention to the issues? Who suggested that? PMT is a reality for millions of women and it can impact on women, men, girls and boys. Managing women with PMT is a reality for women men girls and boys. Treading on eggshells a widespread experience.


It's not the subject of this thread though.


----------



## weepiper (May 20, 2019)

If we all ignore him he might get bored and fuck off. Or we could let him make the whole thread about him, again *shrug*


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

TopCat said:


> _Why use PMT as a reason not to pay attention to the issues? _Who suggested that? PMT is a reality for millions of women and it can impact on women, men, girls and boys. Managing women with PMT is a reality for women men girls and boys. Treading on eggshells a widespread experience.




Exactly the point I was making.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

weepiper said:


> If we all ignore him he might get bored and fuck off. Or we could let him make the whole thread about him, again *shrug*




Yes.
Of course.
Ignore it.
Because it is itself ignorant, and not worthy of attention.

But why the fuck should we ignore this shit.
Ignoring it rather than calling it out means we have to be louder, and be ignorant ourselves.

This shit is the background noise against which we have to find our voice.

Ignore it rather than call it out, and then having to handle and manhandle and whisper our way around the hurt feelings and indignation.

I am so so sick of this bullshit.


----------



## weepiper (May 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes.
> Of course.
> Ignore it.
> Because it is itself ignorant, and not worthy of attention.
> ...


I know darling  it's so incredibly draggy and tiresome. But responding to it just gives them our attention, which is really what they're after. And it just really effectively derails the thread.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

weepiper said:


> I know darling  it's so incredibly draggy and tiresome. But responding to it just gives them our attention, which is really what they're after. And it just really effectively derails the thread.



You’re right.

I’m sort of saying it for us, but /and also to support those who are reading along, who understand or / and those who are learning, open to suggestion.


----------



## Edie (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> It's also things like turning a man down in a way that doesn't invite violence. I learned this when I was 16 and at a club. Some bloke tried to chat me up, I politely but unsmilingly turned him down. He set my clothes on fire when my back was turned, in front of all his friends who did nothing to stop him. For example. I only remembered this after reading this thread - seemed pretty run of the mill at the time.
> 
> It is *not* the same thing as tiptoeing around your nearest and dearest. Not not not not not.





polly said:


> It was ok - I was furious af, put the fire out quickly and chased him and his friends out of the club, shrieking like a banshee, followed by some bouncers  But even though it was a bit of a shock, it just seemed to be pretty standard behaviour. Which is the point really - on the whole I've been very lucky in my transactions with men: never been raped, rarely been sexually assaulted, got a good partner, turned invisible before dick pics and online sexual harassment became a thing. But I'd largely forgotten about being set alight because it was just one nasty event among so, so many.
> 
> It really boils my piss to see men equating this constant state of vigilance towards men's feelings,_ especially as very young women or even girls _(actually roughly 12-16 is when you get the most unwanted male attention ime), with the negotiating that we all do (some to a greater extent than others, granted) in our relationships. It's not just the added risk of physical harm. It's that it is fucking_ constant_, from everywhere, all the time, from the outwardly benign to the obviously threatening. It's even the fact that men feel entitled to your time when you're trying to get somewhere - when I was good mates with someone blonde and big breasted who liked to dress skimpily, it would take us forever to get from A to B, because we'd have to give numerous men the fucking time of day. And we would have to 'man whisper', because a straight up 'go away' would lead to such drama that it would take up even more of your time.
> 
> Tbh all these feminism threads just make me too angry and depressed to deal, and I take my hat off to all you women and men making brilliant and eloquent posts in the face of whataboutery, distraction techniques and just _crap_ from posters who should know - and do - better.


YES polly. Fucking killing it. And I’m so sorry to hear you were set on fire for not accepting a man’s advances. JFC  . My fucking god tho the lessons you learn to appease men who you turn down. Men in bars or clubs, men on dates, even in the online dating world. How quickly shit turns on a dime from compliments and looks, to sneering, insults or even threats if you turn them down. Fuck those men. Fuck their power.

It also goes beyond dating and flirting. When men hold the power, and make no mistake they often do, women are expected to ingratiate themselves. Let me tell you now, if your husband earns the money and your at home with the kids when they’re tiny, you best think twice before you challenge him too much or piss him off cos whose gonna pay the bills if he walks away. He’s out drinking again? Oh well men need to relax after work, better not complain too much, after all he’s earning the money. They’re HIS savings in HIS isa, HIS pension. Smile now, don’t nag.

And if the men on this thread don’t know how this shit works, and don’t think there’s loaded power games in play that make it qualitatively different to walking on eggshells then they clearly don’t have the faintest idea about the female experience.

As for those fucking creepy comments about PMT, I’m not even going there.


----------



## Edie (May 20, 2019)

I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.



They think they're not misogynists because they're "on the left".  The left are worse misogynists than the right are tbh. At least the right are open about it rather than pretending. 

Boils my piss how shit the left are. 

When Dworkin said men on the right think women are private property and men on the left think woman are public property, she wasn't wrong.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.



At least we’re finding out now.


Some of them I thought were alright before this.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> They think they're not misogynists because they're "on the left".  The left are worse misogynists than the right are tbh. At least the right are open about it rather than pretending.
> 
> Boils my piss how shit the left are.
> 
> When Dworkin said men on the right think women are private property and men on the left think woman are public property, she wasn't wrong.




It’s like as if they think because they’re “right on” about some stuff they don’t need to look any closer to home.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It’s like as if they think because they’re “right on” about some stuff they don’t need to look any closer to home.



It’s another aspect of the patriarchy: Im a right on bloke and know all there is to know about being right on... but underneath, because I’m a bloke, I’m certain that everything I know is all there is to know, because bloke.


----------



## polly (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> And if the men on this thread don’t know how this shit works, and don’t think there’s loaded power games in play that make it qualitatively different to walking on eggshells then they clearly don’t have the faintest idea about the female experience.



Yes, this - the power imbalance is so important to recognise if you are to understand how any of this works. I think _some_ men think that because women can say no to sex (_sometimes_) it redresses the power imbalance. I mean, I've seen them make this argument elsewhere. (You my love are one of the ones I was thinking of when I said I tip my hat to those coming back and back and making good arguments - the stamina  )


----------



## Glitter (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.



Every. Single. Thread.

Women discuss their experience and BOOM!

There’s a couple missing on this thread that I’d expect to weigh in at some point.

If it wasn’t so awful it’d be funny in its predictability. It’s fucking tiresome.

Eta and the fact it’s so tiresome probably explains why there are a couple of female posters I’d expect to be on a thread like this who are notable by their absence.


----------



## Cloo (May 20, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It's really ingrained isn't it? The desire/need to undermine and control women. The need to be right and in charge and 'don't you fucking dare do anything that I am not the centre of because if you do etc. etc...' This tactical reminding us of our periods and PMT, it's a backhanded way of putting us in our place and reminding us of our 'biological weaknesses'... Well done.


And at the same time the expectation that women shouldn't expect safety late at night, that women shouldn't expect their boundaries and wishes to be respected. It's women's responsibility not to go out at night, it's women's responsibility to learn how to 'manage' unwelcome men.


----------



## eoin_k (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.



To be fair, less than half a dozen men have made more than a couple of contributions to this thread and these have expressed a range of opinions from gromit's fuckwittery to more considered responses that have been well received. There hasn't exactly been a barrage of denial that the issues being discussed are real from most men on this site.


----------



## Edie (May 20, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> To be fair, less than half a dozen men have made more than a couple of contributions to this thread and these have expressed a range of opinions from gromit's fuckwittery to more considered responses that have been well received. There hasn't exactly been a barrage of denial that the issues being discussed are real from most men on this site.


Most men don’t deny shit, they just don’t understand it, think it doesn’t apply to them, or secretly think it’s unfair. The evidence is on this thread.


----------



## eoin_k (May 20, 2019)

Edie said:


> Most men don’t deny shit, they just don’t understand it, think it doesn’t apply to them, or secretly think it’s unfair. The evidence is on this thread.



I wouldn't know and I wasn't trying to pick an argument. I just thought it might be worth noting that most men on here are taking a back seat on these threads.  Having hit the two post threshold I should probably leave it there.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> To be fair, less than half a dozen men have made more than a couple of contributions to this thread and these have expressed a range of opinions from gromit's fuckwittery to more considered responses that have been well received. There hasn't exactly been a barrage of denial that the issues being discussed are real from most men on this site.


To be fair..this is just a lot of winded way of saying 'not all men' isn't it? Yes we know. You needed to make sure though, because you doubt us.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> I wouldn't know and I wasn't trying to pick an argument. I just thought it might be worth noting that most men on here are taking a back seat on these threads.  Having hit the two post threshold I should probably leave it there.




The thing is, please do join in the discussion. As I said before, it’s not a ghetto. But please for the love of god please make your contribution be more meaningful than “not all men” or, in this instance “very few men on this thread”.

We can’t be beribboning ever single post with “except for the men for whom this is an exception”


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

Rutita1 
Snap!


----------



## trashpony (May 20, 2019)

I know this is a really crass analogy - and even more so because I know there are women on this thread who experience both racism and sexism (so I apologise in advance) - but I cannot imagine a thread on urban where black people are talking about their experiences of racism and white people are piling in to give their redundant point of view that they don't do that. Stop it. Seriously, just stop it.

If you are unable to listen to what women are saying without getting really defensive and angry, think about why that might be. Own it.


----------



## eoin_k (May 20, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> The thing is, please do join in the discussion. As I said before, it’s not a ghetto. But please for the love of god please make your contribution be more meaningful than “not all men” or, in this instance “very few men on this thread”.
> 
> We can’t be beribboning ever single post with “except for the men for whom this is an exception”




I wasn't coming out with a "not all men" argument. I was trying to respond to the specific claim that a few individuals on this thread were representative of the attitude of "a lot of men on this site". At least one of them is a serial anti-feminist troll whose posts are generally greeted by men and women alike with a sentence beginning "Fuck off...". So much so that that it's become an Urban catchphrase, suggesting he's far from representative of this community. One or two others have made provocative points, but they've been challenged by other men more often than not and the tone of discussion and the most prominent voices have been atypical of Urban P&P, which might reflect well on the willingness of others to sit back and listen.

ETA: I'm the only man to have posted on this page. This doesn't look like anything like an urban pile on to me, or a particularly defensive or angry response  for that matter.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I know this is a really crass analogy - and even more so because I know there are women on this thread who experience both racism and sexism (so I apologise in advance) - but I cannot imagine a thread on urban where black people are talking about their experiences of racism and white people are piling in to give their redundant point of view that they don't do that. Stop it. Seriously, just stop it.



It happens here all the bloody time but that's another thread. BAME people talking about their experiences of racism make some White people feel uncomfortable, exactly the same thing is happening here. Some men are feeling uncomfortable with this conversation. 



> If you are unable to listen to what women are saying without getting really defensive and angry, think about why that might be. Own it.


----------



## sheothebudworths (May 20, 2019)

https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...ng-and-the-refusal-to-do-so.364658/whoreplied


----------



## FridgeMagnet (May 20, 2019)

TopCat and Gromit banned from the thread, and warning points applied.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 20, 2019)

Poot said:


> It's the old adage, isn't it, that men are concerned that women will laugh at them, whereas women are concerned that men will kill them.


if that is an old adage, it's one I havent heard before. It has a ring of truth about it, and I thought it worth repeating.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 20, 2019)

polly said:


> It was ok - I was furious af, put the fire out quickly and chased him and his friends out of the club, shrieking like a banshee, followed by some bouncers  But even though it was a bit of a shock, it just seemed to be pretty standard behaviour. Which is the point really - on the whole I've been very lucky in my transactions with men: never been raped, rarely been sexually assaulted, got a good partner, turned invisible before dick pics and online sexual harassment became a thing. But I'd la+ Quotergely forgotten about being set alight because it was just one nasty event among so, so many.
> 
> It really boils my piss to see men equating this constant state of vigilance towards men's feelings,_ especially as very young women or even girls _(actually roughly 12-16 is when you get the most unwanted male attention ime), with the negotiating that we all do (some to a greater extent than others, granted) in our relationships. It's not just the added risk of physical harm. It's that it is fucking_ constant_, from everywhere, all the time, from the outwardly benign to the obviously threatening. It's even the fact that men feel entitled to your time when you're trying to get somewhere - when I was good mates with someone blonde and big breasted who liked to dress skimpily, it would take us forever to get from A to B, because we'd have to give numerous men the fucking time of day. And we would have to 'man whisper', because a straight up 'go away' would lead to such drama that it would take up even more of your time.
> 
> Tbh all these feminism threads just make me too angry and depressed to deal, and I take my hat off to all you women and men making brilliant and eloquent posts in the face of whataboutery, distraction techniques and just _crap_ from posters who should know - and do - better.


 That is shocking. More shocking that it was just one event 'amongst so many'. 

It was certainly a problem in my younger days (before becoming invisible as an older woman) and it seems to be as much of a problem as it ever was, with the younger women I've talk to recently. Which I find depressing.


----------



## spanglechick (May 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> if that is an old adage, it's one I havent heard before. It has a ring of truth about it, and I thought it worth repeating.


Istr it’s an observation by Margaret Atwood.


----------



## Poot (May 20, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> Istr it’s an observation by Margaret Atwood.


Yes! I couldn't remember where I'd heard it. And I misquoted  Sorry Margaret Attwood. You deserve better.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (May 20, 2019)

eoin_k said:


> I wasn't coming out with a "not all men" argument. I was trying to respond to the specific claim that a few individuals on this thread were representative of the attitude of "a lot of men on this site". At least one of them is a serial anti-feminist troll whose posts are generally greeted by men and women alike with a sentence beginning "Fuck off...". So much so that that it's become an Urban catchphrase, suggesting he's far from representative of this community. One or two others have made provocative points, but they've been challenged by other men more often than not and the tone of discussion and the most prominent voices have been atypical of Urban P&P, which might reflect well on the willingness of others to sit back and listen.
> 
> ETA: I'm the only man to have posted on this page. This doesn't look like anything like an urban pile on to me, or a particularly defensive or angry response  for that matter.




You’re right. So I’ll retract that slur against you in particular.

But there has been quite a lot of chatter about the thread itself rather than the issue in the OP, and a lot of that chat has been about whether it’s a real issue or something made up or exaggerated (or attributable to periods ffs).

If we can agree that it is a real issue even though not everyone has first hand experience of it, then maybe we can get on with trying to pick it apart.

Some of the men who have posted on this thread have done so in order to tell woman that it’s not a real problem or whatever, and the discussion has been stalled several times. And then we get pissed off and round we go again. So many of these feminism & sexism threads end up with post after post giving examples of bad personal experiences because we end up backed into a place where we have to justify qualify or in some way prove that the problem we face is real.

And as I’ve said already, it would be great if you and other men also contributed to this discussion about having to negotiate around the fragile male ego ( NAM obvs).

I’ve never wanted to have these discussions in private, I think it’s  really important that men are also involved with these discussions, even if that’s only from the sidelines. But this pattern of having to spend pages just getting to the point where enough men agree that it’s a legitimate discussion is really tiresome.

When I talk with women about feminism & sexism in private*, we can jump straight to the heart of the issue without having to wade through the “is it really a real problem” stuff. I’d love it if that could happen in mixed conversation too.



* Edited to add: when I say private here, I mean with women; the thing is though that even when it’s with women who have entirely different experiences and maybe even don’t have first hand experience of what’s being discussed, there’s never any of this “yeah well it can’t be real then” bollocks that we have to wade through when (not all) men are involved.


----------



## keithy (May 20, 2019)

There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing. 

I am so sick of feeling threatened by men. The stronger you get the more they want to crush you. It is relentless. I feel like I pander to men less than a lot of people but I still feel completely oppressed by living in this world where to survive you have to let them be absolute dikk edds.


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## trashpony (May 20, 2019)

keithy said:


> There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.
> 
> I am so sick of feeling threatened by men. The stronger you get the more they want to crush you. It is relentless. I feel like I pander to men less than a lot of people but I still feel completely oppressed by living in this world where to survive you have to let them be absolute dikk edds.



That used to happen to men A LOT when I was younger. Coupled up blokes hitting on me because I was single. Yuck


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## killer b (May 20, 2019)

keithy said:


> There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.


IME when this happens (as it does), it isn't because people don't believe you. They generally know he's a creep, so it's already priced in. It's because it's easier to exclude the person making the fuss, than to get involved in the fuss yourself.


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## killer b (May 20, 2019)

(I'm not justifying it fwiw - it's just another example of the thing that I've realised recently that most bad things happen because it's too much bother, or too awkward, or too inconvenient for people - especially groups of people - to do the right thing)


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## Treacle Toes (May 20, 2019)

keithy said:


> There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.


 Fucking hell. Grim.

...but yes... 'homewrecker' was an insult solely created for women I am sure of it. The assumption will be that you led him on, encouraged it, flirted, disrespected his partner, was the temptress etc even if they do know he is a fucking letch.


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## Manter (May 21, 2019)

trashpony said:


> That used to happen to men A LOT when I was younger. Coupled up blokes hitting on me because I was single. Yuck


In the weeks after I got my engagement ring (10 years ago!!) loads on men hit on me. It was bizarre. I mentioned it to my mum and she said, in a really tired voice that I was a ‘fresh challenge’ now I was so visibly in a relationship with someone else.

I’m not sure what my point is beyond god these dynamics are so many layers of fucked up.


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## polly (May 21, 2019)

keithy said:


> There are a few couples on this site where the bloke has come on to me v v strongly (in one case I actually hit him in response, breaking his glasses) and I have felt like I've just had to accept that and not kick off or ever be open about it because we all know who usually gets shunned from communities for this kind of thing.



Ew ffs  I've had men in couples approach my boyfriend (this happened more than once! Well, twice  ) to see if he wanted to swap girlfriends for the night. While acting like I wasn't there, like I didn't have a say. Just gross. As my bezzer frequently says, the fact that there are still heterosexual women in the world proves that sexuality isn't a choice.



eoin_k said:


> To be fair, less than half a dozen men have made more than a couple of contributions to this thread and these have expressed a range of opinions from gromit's fuckwittery to more considered responses that have been well received. There hasn't exactly been a barrage of denial that the issues being discussed are real from most men on this site.



I was thinking about this because I do see where you're coming from. For one thing, there are a few male posters who consistently pop up to bat for women in these threads, and I appreciate that. For another, you're all told to butt out and so I assume there are men reading and not posting, which is also great. But this is an improvement, and quite a recent one. I read Edie's post as not just referencing this thread, but urban men in general on feminism. The record is pretty shit. But I'm glad that the trajectory is promising  /patronising


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## killer b (May 21, 2019)

I saw a fine example of man-whispering in the wild on Friday night, when I was out dancing: there was this dude getting all up in women's personal space on the dancefloor, each time being smiled at, spoken to all friendly-like and a cautious attempt made to disengage and move him on. After he'd done this a few times with the women in my crew, I inserted myself between him and them, and was - predictably - aggressively buffered for my efforts, and glared at whenever I passed in front of him the rest of the night. 

I've only really been aware of this kind of thing on the dancefloor since I stopped drinking and taking drugs. I see it every time I go out dancing now - I guess it's tediously familiar to any woman who's ever been to a disco. The way he reacted with anger when interrupted - and I do interrupt every time now, and get the same reaction every time - illustrates perfectly why it was necessary for the women he was targeting to treat him with caution rather than be firmer with their disengagement.


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## killer b (May 21, 2019)

BTW - while I do intervene, I usually leave it a while first - partly because there's a whole load of issues around being the hard man protecting his women, and partly because the man-whispering is so natural, so well done that it's often not very obvious that's what's happening, at first at least.  It's behaviour that's more or less invisible, which perhaps explains why many men find it hard to get their heads around.


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## Manter (May 21, 2019)

‘Man whispering in the wild’ made me laugh killer b


----------



## chilango (May 21, 2019)

polly said:


> . For another, you're all told to butt out and so I assume there are men reading and not posting, which is also great. But this is an improvement, and quite a recent one. I read Edie's post as not just referencing this thread, but urban men in general on feminism. The record is pretty shit. But I'm glad that the trajectory is promising  /patronising



Just to confirm that, yeah, some of us _are_ reading and not posting, and that, yeah, sometimes it's an effort to resist posting and just read....

...which I've now just failed


----------



## gentlegreen (May 21, 2019)

Did I perceive "man whispering" in this year's inclusivity awareness thing at work ?

I must go and check where they got the thing from - it wasn't in-house where we have people who STUDY this sort of thing ... "Equality essentials" it was called.

It took me two goes and multiple reminders to get me to complete it because the first section pissed me off so much as it was determined to show me I was "special" ... I think they used the term "minority".
Even when I added "married with children" to the rest of my privilege, I seem to remember they were keen to show "me" that there were only 1 million people like me in the country ...


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## killer b (May 21, 2019)

Manter said:


> ‘Man whispering in the wild’ made me laugh killer b


Everyone who's met me on the thread is laughing at the idea of me being a hard man protecting his women, I'd imagine.


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## kalidarkone (May 21, 2019)

This thread has explained a lot of stuff to me, that at age nearly 50 I recognise but had no name for. I'm also getting a clearer idea of why I might be single
I'm unable to man whisper and for that reason I'm abhorrent to many of them.


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## kalidarkone (May 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I saw a fine example of man-whispering in the wild on Friday night, when I was out dancing: there was this dude getting all up in women's personal space on the dancefloor, each time being smiled at, spoken to all friendly-like and a cautious attempt made to disengage and move him on. After he'd done this a few times with the women in my crew, I inserted myself between him and them, and was - predictably - aggressively buffered for my efforts, and glared at whenever I passed in front of him the rest of the night.
> 
> I've only really been aware of this kind of thing on the dancefloor since I stopped drinking and taking drugs. I see it every time I go out dancing now - I guess it's tediously familiar to any woman who's ever been to a disco. The way he reacted with anger when interrupted - and I do interrupt every time now, and get the same reaction every time - illustrates perfectly why it was necessary for the women he was targeting to treat him with caution rather than be firmer with their disengagement.


I had a similar incident but as explained above I'm  incapable of man whispering and when getting unwanted attention very directly told the guy that ' I was 100% uninterested. He is not for me' He then took my hand and said "I'll just try harder then '  I left. This was also facilitated by a woman I know who when I next saw her told her about herself.


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## Rebelda (May 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> BTW - while I do intervene, I usually leave it a while first - partly because there's a whole load of issues around being the hard man protecting his women, and partly because the man-whispering is so natural, so well done that it's often not very obvious that's what's happening, at first at least.  It's behaviour that's more or less invisible, which perhaps explains why many men find it hard to get their heads around.


This is bang on 

I must admit, while definitely grateful when a man steps in to help in this way, I can simultaneously be furious that it was necessary. Which probably evens out on my face as not caring much either way. I have often then had to navigate the man who intervened being pissed off if I haven't fawned sufficiently


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## killer b (May 21, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> This is bang on
> 
> I must admit, while definitely grateful when a man steps in to help in this way, I can simultaneously be furious that it was necessary. Which probably evens out on my face as not caring much either way. I have often then had to navigate the man who intervened being pissed off if I haven't fawned sufficiently


There's a popular conception - among rose-tinted-glasses wearing men for the most part - that this was less of a problem in the good ol' days of rave, where the dancefloors were self policing and full of pure love of the music. In fact, conversation with female friends over the years revealed to me that even what appeared to the typical pilled up bloke to be the friendliest dancefloors were a cesspit of sexual predation and inappropriate sleaze. It seems to me to have been a permanent problem since forever. 

I've seen a lot of chat recently from bands wanting their audiences to be more considerate of the women among them, to call out creeps on the dancefloor etc - which is a move in the right direction, but I really think a change in culture can't be done that way alone. I think venues, bands and people running nights need to take the initiative here with unambiguous and enforced zero tolerance policies - although how to enforce stuff like this is a very difficult thing to balance (hence why no-one really does it).


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## Looby (May 21, 2019)

I posted after Easter about a couple of creepy blokes in a venue leering over and hassling my friends. When I reported it the bouncer laughed and did nothing and the second bloke had my friend in a headlock pulling her hair 10 minutes later. So we’re not going back. We like that place and we’ve lost out because we don’t feel safe there. [emoji35]


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## killer b (May 21, 2019)

I'm actually going to get in touch with the people who organised the night I was at on Friday with some suggestions - would be interested if anyone knew & had experience of any nights that do run successful no creeps policies, and how they work?


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (May 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> I'm actually going to get in touch with the people who organised the night I was at on Friday with some suggestions - would be interested if anyone knew & had experience of any nights that do run successful no creeps policies, and how they work?



One that springs to mind that's been mentioned here before is Gateway to Zen. I tracked down their safe spaces policy (there was some debate on that wording here as I recall...): .

To me it seems like a good approach. I'm not a woman who has had trouble at one of their events though so I'm not best placed to comment on how effective it ultimately is.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 21, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> But this pattern of having to spend pages just getting to the point where enough men agree that it’s a legitimate discussion is really tiresome.
> 
> When I talk with women about feminism & sexism in private*, *we can jump straight to the heart of the issue without having to wade through the “is it really a real problem” stuff*. I’d love it if that could happen in mixed conversation too.


 This is exactly the point! too often we can only get to what the women want to discuss after pages of shit.
so listen up, men!


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 21, 2019)

polly said:


> As my bezzer frequently says, the fact that there are still heterosexual women in the world proves that sexuality isn't a choice.


 this made me laugh out loud! 

I often wonder how hetro women cope.  Even if you find a lovely man without any of this shit you both still have to put up with it from the rest of the world.

It's funny I had lots of male lovers when I was young (probably a phase) but felt I did actively choose not to marry / live with them to avoid the expectations of the family/friends/world/society. Before I knew what I wanted, I knew I didn't want to play that 'woman's role.


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## friendofdorothy (May 21, 2019)

If I ever knew how to man-whisper I lost it decades ago.

Probably about the time I lived in a red-light district and got kerb crawled every 5 mins 24/7. I learned to say 'NO!' and FUCK OFF' a lot.  Practice makes perfect.


----------



## trabuquera (May 21, 2019)

Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man"  . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?


----------



## Poot (May 21, 2019)

trabuquera said:


> Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man"  . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?


It is a bit odd, maybe she thought men were more sensitive? 

I suppose it's along the same lines as 'never beat a woman'. Well, yeah, how's about not beating anyone!


----------



## killer b (May 21, 2019)

Maybe she thought they might beat you?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (May 21, 2019)

I remember my mum many years ago telling me that I should be careful never to lead a man on, because they can't control themselves in certain situations, and if I did it would be my fault.

No wonder some of us became expert man-whisperers!


----------



## Cloo (May 21, 2019)

My mum never warned me against men, though she'd had her share of dodgy encounters I am sure. She did once say to me 'Remember, darling, all men think with their dicks' , though  (awaits 'not all men' responses)


----------



## dylanredefined (May 21, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Following on from  spanglechick 's post on another thread and the interesting points she and other's made...
> 
> I often refuse to _Man-whisper_, I can see that it's sometimes my default...in my life I have had so much more beef with men than women, particular alphas. Even as a heterosexual woman.
> 
> ...


Using the term Alpha really?
Any bloke who uses it other than ironically
Is obviously a dick.


----------



## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> Using the term Alpha really?
> Any bloke who uses it other than ironically
> Is obviously a dick.


What would you say is a better term for me to use?

Also, are you thoughts on the thread topic?


----------



## dylanredefined (May 21, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What would you say is a better term for me to use?
> 
> Also, are you thoughts on the thread topic?


 Don't know if you are having to man whisper to prevent a bad end  he isn't one though.
 Alpha being the so called confident self assured bloke. Should take criticism or just another opinion in his stride. Angry Manchild springs to mind as a better description.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (May 21, 2019)

Speaking of social events etc. I have a default face that instantly appears when I am absolutely not interested. It has never failed me yet. Comes from teaching...my cross pissed off face. 
When I've engaged this default face I am never ever approached  
I developed it in my early teens whe  I used to have to wait for a bus home from school and was sick of being approached. And after a horrible incident on a bus where an old fucker decided he could touch me up...and I was so young and innocent I did not know what to do. 

Anyway...my default shit storm face works wonders. 

I do realise that I should not have to do this...and I may well have put off some decent guys too but I've always figured that better to put off the scumbags than attract one.


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## kalidarkone (May 21, 2019)

Poot said:


> It is a bit odd, maybe she thought men were more sensitive?
> 
> I suppose it's along the same lines as 'never beat a woman'. Well, yeah, how's about not beating anyone!


I've learnt to never laugh when having sex with a man because when I have its been perceived that I'm laughing at them and before I can explain that actually I'm just enjoying myself and having fun they have got all huffy and are having a sulk.


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## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> Don't know if you are having to man whisper to prevent a bad end  he isn't one though.



I don't understand what you mean.


> Alpha being the so called confident self assured bloke. Should take criticism or just another opinion in his stride. Angry Manchild springs to mind as a better description.



It is my experience that confident, overly self assured blokes do not take criticism in their stride nor have they coped very well with me being independent, capable and not minimising myself to/for them. I find them aggressive and hyper-masculine. That is what I mean by 'alpha' not just someone who is confident and comfortable in himself.


----------



## Manter (May 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> If I ever knew how to man-whisper I lost it decades ago.
> 
> Probably about the time I lived in a red-light district and got kerb crawled every 5 mins 24/7. I learned to say 'NO!' and FUCK OFF' a lot.  Practice makes perfect.


I lived downstairs from a sex worker briefly when I first moved to London. Some of what was said to me when punters thought I was her (and when it became obvious I wasn’t her) has made me very sceptical of the whole sex work is empowering narrative


----------



## Edie (May 21, 2019)

trabuquera said:


> Retro man-whispering Special Memories, 1970s edition: My ma (a once-widowed, often-partnered, anti-religious woman who earned her own living for a very large part of her life and was at this point a single working parent) told me several times as a kid/teenage girl that I should never mock, jeer or ridicule someone of the male gender, no matter how ridiculous their behaviour or speech or clothes or whatever was, because ... "you should never laugh at a man"  . (professional comedians excepted, I guess???) Baffles me to this day. Obviously nobody likes being belittled or bullied, and not everyone can deal with being laughed at. But is being laughed at across gender lines so much worse? And for whom? And if so why? Still can't really compute it to be honest. what was she thinking?


My ‘dad’ warned me never to lead a man on when I was 11


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## Mumbles274 (May 21, 2019)

I've been reading this thread and have learned a lot thanks to some really personal and honest posts. I can't imagine how hard it is to have to navigate the world you do. I really value urban for threads like this that help me see a different perspective. I've always done my best to raise my daughters with feminist values and this will be one more thing i can consider in what the world is like for them. As a reader of these threads, thank you


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## dylanredefined (May 21, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't understand what you mean.
> 
> 
> It is my experience that confident, overly self assured blokes do not take criticism in their stride nor have they coped very well with me being independent, capable and not minimising myself to/for them. I find them aggressive and hyper-masculine. That is what I mean by 'alpha' not just someone who is confident and comfortable in himself.


Think you mean a wanker instead of Alpha


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## Treacle Toes (May 21, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> Think you mean a wanker instead of Alpha



No I mean an Alpha. Personally I don't think it's an either/or thing. Why are you arguing this point with me?


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## Pickman's model (May 21, 2019)

An alpha romeo perhaps


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## Treacle Toes (May 22, 2019)

'What I mean is this.'

'No, you don't even know what you are thinking or describing, what you mean is this'

'No I don't, I know what I mean.'

 'Oh look, an opportunity to crack a shit joke'

Arghhhhhhhhhhhhh... Boring as fuck.


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 22, 2019)

Edie said:


> My ‘dad’ warned me never to lead a man on when I was 11


 I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour. 

This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.


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## kalidarkone (May 23, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour.
> 
> This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.


Totally - I never dared to tell my ma I was raped- because it would be my fault and 'I told you so'


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## friendofdorothy (May 23, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> Totally - I never dared to tell my ma I was raped- because it would be my fault and 'I told you so'



Liked only in sympathy. That sounds awful for you.


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## kalidarkone (May 23, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Liked only in sympathy. That sounds awful for you.


It was a very very long time ago and in a way the worst thing about it is not being able to tell my own family and get support because of the ingrained beliefs regarding correct behaviour of men and women. It's also more complex cus it's not just about me being female and never living up to expectations but in their eyes I'm. Just. Wrong. and am barely tolerated and pitied. However I can safely say that if I had been male I would have had permission to be myself. I am myself but just without permission and the philosophy that there must be something really wrong with me.
Like if this were the 1800s I'd be the one put in the asylum for not conforming


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## friendofdorothy (May 23, 2019)

I never told my family when an older cousin touched me up, in my own bed. I was a 13 year old and he was 26 and married to a beautiful woman. I didn't understand what was happening at the time. I was so confused by the whole thing, I thought it might have been my fault. 

I was horrified when he became the head teacher at at girls school years later but didn't feel there was any thing I could have done. 

He got a comeuppance of sorts that when he had a heart attack both his wife and a lover turned up at his hospital bed. End of marriage, and I think end of his career, as he ended up living back with his mother.


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## Manter (May 23, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't recall anyone explicitly saying that - but that was the general message all girls got before feminists challenged it. I was brought up in the '60s and '70s with the feeling that it would be my fault if a boy/bloke tried it on, that it was a good girls duty not to put herself in that position to defend her own honour.
> 
> This was the culture that saw paedophilia as normal, blamed victims of rape, didn't listen to reports of abuse and let the likes of Saville get away with it.


Not sure that’s changed. Dr Jessica Eaton does a lot of work on victim blaming, especially of children


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

When I finally plucked up the courage to disclose to a teacher that my stepdad beat me regularly, the Deputy Headmistress told me she wasn't surprised as I was a naughty child. End of conversation, end of telling adults/strangers anything about it for 30 years.


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## Red Cat (May 23, 2019)

I think it has changed, a main part of any work with children is safeguarding and there's _huge_ anxiety in systems about children being abused or neglected. If you disclosed now that would be reported. But perhaps the blame moves around...and CSE is where the guilty child narrative is these days. Thing is nobody wants to believe that children are abused, and it takes a lot of reflective supervision to not turn a blind eye, it's not a matter of personal moral failing, people need spaces to think to support seeing things for how they are.


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> When I finally plucked up the courage to disclose to a teacher that my stepdad beat me regularly, the Deputy Headmistress told me she wasn't surprised as I was a naughty child. End of conversation, end of telling adults/strangers anything about it for 30 years.




Uff how fucking horrible!  There really was a belief that physical abuse was acceptable and that disciplining children was important. _'Spare the rod, spoil the child'_ type attitudes. What kind of school did you go to? There certainly was religious doctrine running through the approach of many and that legitimised corporal punishment in schools too.


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

It was a former grammar school but which had recently become a comprehensive, and taken on a lot of pupils from a much smaller comp on a "notorious" estate. Consequently there was a weird clash of middle class kids who lived around the park and kids from the estate, and some teachers who had been there a while had no clue how to manage it.

I know enough about safeguarding to know that teacher would likely have lost her job for that reaction now, but now I'd like to think she'd have at least passed it to the Safeguarding lead (which of course didn't exist then).

When I turned up at school with my back looking like a raspberry fruit gum from a metal tennis racket walloping and showed other kids (not without a little pride, if I'm honest) it was the more forceful/respected/hard kids that got the word out that I was to be left alone while I was at school. Sounds very Hollywood but for the most part that's exactly what happened.


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## Cloo (May 23, 2019)

Red Cat said:


> I think it has changed, a main part of any work with children is safeguarding and there's _huge_ anxiety in systems about children being abused or neglected. If you disclosed now that would be reported. But perhaps the blame moves around...and CSE is where the guilty child narrative is these days. Thing is nobody wants to believe that children are abused, and it takes a lot of reflective supervision to not turn a blind eye, it's not a matter of personal moral failing, people need spaces to think to support seeing things for how they are.


Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....


----------



## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

All of which is a long way of saying I'm not friends with blokes. Some men, yes, but no manly men in the trad sense. The few male friends I have...one is gay and lives with a retired headmistress by the seaside, another runs an arts cooperative and has a girlfriend from a rich American family, two others are happily married and are very quiet and gentle men, and my best pal is like me in that he rejects blokedom and is uncomfortable with it.


----------



## Red Cat (May 23, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....



tbf CSE referral forms require a lot of detail about what makes the child vulnerable, and schools are well aware too. Nothing is static, things do change through greater awareness and training. But I think children as a group are the receptacle for all sorts of adult projections, just as women are for men, and men for women, but some groups have more power than others which makes a difference.


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## Manter (May 23, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....


There was a horrible article about a boy who was abused but was gay so the grooming was basically dismissed as experimentation. I suspect those blamed are all who are in any way blameable- for being female, black, gay, poor, inarticulate, angry, promiscuous, provocative etc etc .


----------



## Pickman's model (May 23, 2019)

Cloo said:


> Yes, there's a horrible irony in that a kid flagged as 'at risk of sexual exploitation' risks ending up being seen as 'a child who brings exploitation on themselves', not a child in a context where they are in particular danger from exploitative adults. And one imagines this may be especially the case with girls above boys. 'She knew what she was doing' 'Mature-looking' 'Experienced'....


a discussion here https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...l-relationship-with-15-yr-old-student.355631/


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## kalidarkone (May 23, 2019)

I've failed again
I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
So I say 'Do you think I'm old'?
He says 'No'
I say 'Do you think I'm pregnant'?
He says 'no'
I say 'OK just checking *giggles* errm no but thanks for asking'

I then felt I'd been harsh and rejecting but at the same time found it odd that I'd clearly chosen to stand up and as he hadn't asked the guy also standing I thought he must of thought there was something inadequate about me - which is what chivalry is really.

I felt slightly concerned that I had humiliated him, however I felt slightly humiliated by him asking if I wanted a seat in the first place.


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## mauvais (May 23, 2019)

There's a difference between offering someone _your_ seat and offering someone _a_ seat (because e.g. they were blocking it or had baggage on it etc). One implies that you might need it more than them for some reason, and the other is just politeness.


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## littlebabyjesus (May 23, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> I've failed again
> I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
> The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
> I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
> ...


That's a bit weird tbh, especially given that there were other seats available. And if you had headphones on, that's extra reason to leave you alone. You did the right thing.  

On the pregnancy thing, the 'baby on board' badges are a great idea. I have in the past sat there stricken by indecision, wondering 'Is she pregnant or just a bit fat?' And then there's the opposite problem when you can't tell a woman is pregnant at all.


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## Cloo (May 23, 2019)

I _totally_ saw a woman trying to work out if I was pregnant (tell-tale glance at stomach, then up at lapel for badge) - evidently she decided not!  Yes, I do have a sticky out tummy. A have once or twice had people ask me if I was preggers and I have just laughed and said 'No, I guess it's just not a very flattering dress' and I honestly, really don't mind, I know it's just my shape - it's probably worse for them than me.


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## Clair De Lune (May 23, 2019)

It's not so much that us women have to walk on eggshells - it's that we've been taught that men are golden eggs. You gotta teeter around them, tread carefully, gently cajole them, sugarcoat shit for them, massage their egos, put them on a pedestal, watch what you say, don't make them angry, don't bruise their ego, don't laugh at them, don't expect much of them, don't ignore them, don't leave them hungry, don't leave them horny or they'll cheat on you, don't make them jealous, dont be smarter than them, don't become more successful than them, don't, whatever you do, come across like you don't need them. Don't nag them, interrupt them, answer back or make them feel small in any way.
 Because they are golden fucking eggs- fragile, dangerous and worth ten of you, no matter who you are.


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## Miss-Shelf (May 23, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> I've failed again
> I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
> The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
> I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
> ...



I hate this too.   It happens a lot on the tfl overground more than the tube  [I think because there's slightly more room for people to get past each other ].

I usually say no.  

Please,  person next to the seat,  take it,  unless there is someone who is unable to stand easily 

I don't need the seat because I am female


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> It's not so much that us women have to walk on eggshells - it's that we've been taught that men are golden eggs. You gotta teeter around them, tread carefully, gently cajole them, sugarcoat shit for them, massage their egos, put them on a pedestal, watch what you say, don't make them angry, don't bruise their ego, don't laugh at them, don't expect much of them, don't ignore them, don't leave them hungry, don't leave them horny or they'll cheat on you, don't make them jealous, dont be smarter than them, don't become more successful than them, don't, whatever you do, come across like you don't need them. Don't nag them, interrupt them, answer back or make them feel small in any way.
> Because they are golden fucking eggs- fragile, dangerous and worth ten of you, no matter who you are.


Thank goodness, then, that both my marriages and a fling in between were with women who'd either broken out, rejected or utterly ignored this paradigm by the time they met me.


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## Clair De Lune (May 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Thank goodness, then, that both my marriages and a fling in between were with women who'd either broken out, rejected or utterly ignored this paradigm by the time they met me.


Get your wife on here, I wanna ask her something


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> Get your wife on here, I wanna ask her something


Not a fucking chance mate


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

It must be said that both wives were previously with the sort of angry, controlling manchildren women are taught to whisper around and placate. Both were physically assaulted by them.


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## Clair De Lune (May 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Not a fucking chance mate


 
Would you ask her then if she ever feels she has to do any of that for you, colleagues, strangers, her exes? For safety, keeping the peace or to not rock the boat. Cos honestly we're so good at it that you might not even know it's going on.


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> Would you ask her then if she ever feels she has to do any of that for you, colleagues, strangers, her exes? For safety, keeping the peace or to not rock the boat. Cos honestly we're so good at it that you might not even know it's going on.


I know she feels as though she's nagging whenever she asks me to do something.


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## Steel Icarus (May 23, 2019)

But I will say - reluctant as I am to continue this now I've remembered its public - she doesn't believe she's ever directly encountered sexism, however she defines it.


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## SheilaNaGig (May 23, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> I've failed again
> I'm not very good with the male chivalry ting.... I got on the tube to go to Victoria to getc the bus back to Bristol and despite there being plenty of seats I chose to stand up cus I'm gonna be sat down for 2.5 hrs and I get to have a likkle dance round the pole to the jungle coming through my headphones
> The guy standing opposite me gestures and points behind me to a guy sitting down who is gesturing 'Do I want a seat'? I take my headphones off and he repeats do you want to sit down? (There are other seats available)
> I feel a bit bad about my response cus his intention was to be polite....
> ...




I know this is inconsistent and probably confusing from the outside, but it feels very sensible and obvious on the inside:

Most of the time, while I’m just going about my business on a normal day I have no expectation or need for someone to give me their seat or open the door for me.

But sometimes, I do. Like when I’m all dollied up in high heels and in full Show-pony mode, then I feel insulted if my date doesn’t hold the door open for me and allow me to sit while they stand. It’s partly that I’ve put on the full show and I expect and need a stage, with the curtain raise effect of having the door held open for me, and partly because it’s bloody awkward to negotiate heavy doors and so forth in all the clobber.

I bloody love dressing up. And if I’m lucky enough to be dating someone who appreciates it as much as I do, then part of the whole thing is the showmanship (showwomanship) of the chivalry too.

I’ve been on dates when I turned up in full glam and didn’t get the chivalry, and felt angry irritated and insulted.

It’s about the clobber, the glamour, the clothes and the show, not about needing to be pandered to by virtue of my gender. It feels like my date ought to be part of the show too.

If I was on the way to the date on the tube dressed that way, I’d be glad to get a seat but not expect anyone to give me one.




This isn’t about chivalry but :
When I was dealing with cancer treatment, I really really needed people to hold doors open and give me their seat. About half the time, I had to ask, even when I was bald as an egg and obviously struggling. Some of that was because everyone dives into their phone as soon as they sit down and they just didn’t notice me. I wondered if they sometimes weren’t sure if the bald woman was ill or just really really hardcore.


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## kalidarkone (May 23, 2019)

SheilaNaGig yeah its about context I guess. I too like to dress up and go out and in that scenario appreciate a door being opened or a chair pulled out....but in day to day I will open doors for people. ..

Funnily my ex was brought up to behave very gentlemanly/ old skool brit .... and was taught to never sit if a woman was standing even if he wanted to sit and the woman was happy standing and he would just kind of hover looking uncomfortable....he had to get over that with me because at one point I'd prolapsed a disc and could not sit down

The point I was trying to make regarding the guy offering me a seat on the tube today was more that I was suspicious of his offer. I expressed that in a pretty raw and direct way and then felt a bit bad because although I don't do the whispering thing I feel as though I ought to just because it's expected of me although -it feels very alien to me.

I'm a bit aspie and can be quite black and white initially and have a directness that I partly atribute to my Jamaican heritage.


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## ShiftyBagLady (May 23, 2019)

S☼I said:


> All of which is a long way of saying I'm not friends with blokes. Some men, yes, but no manly men in the trad sense. The few male friends I have...one is gay and lives with a retired headmistress by the seaside, another runs an arts cooperative and has a girlfriend from a rich American family, two others are happily married and are very quiet and gentle men, and my best pal is like me in that he rejects blokedom and is uncomfortable with it.


Your previous posts and this one have made me think of how abuse may have a gendered aspect for boys which people don't really discuss. Speaking really really broadly, for girls we are naturally to blame and at fault, powerless and ashamed about our abuse whereas for boys there is an idea of them either deserving it because they act out and you need to break their will, being expected to take it on the chin and not whine, or simply never being able to talk about your experiences in anything but jokey ways meaning you could never talk about really horrific things. 
I've been thinking about this (intermittently) since the Christian Brothers scandal in Ireland (and so much could be said about that..). This really stuck in my mind because I knew some  people involved, including a boy who hung himself at age 13 because he was about to get in trouble with the brothers again. What I personally observed (as well as the institutional, religious and economic factors which perpetuated their terror), was the horrible, oppressive secrecy about it. 
Nobody could ever talk about it; they knew it when it happened, hid it when it happened to them. I can't help but feel that the pressure to man up, fight back and overcome compounded the trauma of being abused. I know girls also have the pressure of silence but it seemed to become an almost pathologically internalised silence for the boys I knew. 

Maybe you lot should start a thread about that too


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## Treacle Toes (May 23, 2019)

Timely post that ShiftyBagLady . I heard a conversation about something similar today claiming that it's common to say to girls 'What happened to you?' and with boys 'what's wrong with you?' It really struck me and i've been mulling it over...


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## Cloo (May 24, 2019)

This tweet today reminded me of this thread. An interesting take. In many ways, feminism is the act of 'holding the grudge' - of not just going  ' Men, eh?' and of insisting the mistreatment of women does matter and is not to be brushed away or 'tolerated' to keep the peace somehow.


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## Winot (May 26, 2019)

One solution 

Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert


----------



## Manter (May 26, 2019)

Winot said:


> One solution
> 
> Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert


Bit late for that, for me 

Unless anyone wants a tall, sardonic northerner, gently used; and small, blonde hurricane?


----------



## Manter (May 26, 2019)

Incidentally my FIL is down here at the moment and *everyone* is manwhispering him. (Even, I am ashamed to say, me). Fascinating to see an old school patriarch in the wild- my parents have always been partners* so I didn’t really grow up with it in closeup. 

*not a perfect relationship or perfect gender roles by any means, but never got the impression they considered one another as anything but equals


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## friendofdorothy (May 26, 2019)

Winot said:


> One solution
> 
> Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert





> “We do have some good longitudinal data following the same people over time, but I am going to do a massive disservice to that science and just say: if you’re a man, you should probably get married; if you’re a woman, don’t bother.”


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## Manter (May 26, 2019)

I never did get married- my short engagement is 11 years and counting- but long term monogamous heterosexual relationships are.... difficult to recommend. (Albeit they have brought lots of people lots of joy, Namnaw, ymmv etc)


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## Poot (May 26, 2019)

I loved the part of the survey that concluded that in fact married people are happier than single people _but only if their spouse was in the room when they were asked. 

_


----------



## Manter (May 26, 2019)

Poot said:


> I loved the part of the survey that concluded that in fact married people are happier than single people _but only if their spouse was in the room when they were asked.
> 
> _


Yes! Loved that


----------



## Winot (May 26, 2019)

It’s interesting that the advice mirrors that about educating children: boys better of with girls; girls better off without boys.


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## Baronage-Phase (May 27, 2019)

Winot said:


> One solution
> 
> Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert



Totally agree.


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## Baronage-Phase (May 28, 2019)

On the whole man whispering thing....
Ive noticed that in working with teenage boys (many of whom have issues with delinquency) that they do not appreciate getting a telling off from female staff and can act up on foot of a telling off. 
They automatically assume the female teacher is nagging and they will become antagonistic. 
It really pissed me off yesterday when 6 teenage male students were sent into detention to me and they were giving guff and acting up so I gave them a bit of my mind in a pretty forceful manner and they sat down quiet enough. Then a male teacher arrived and for no reason at all started to go to each one and talk to them. He left...and of course the 6 decided it was ok to start acting up again. 

Fucking fuming I was cos the male teacher basically undermined my authority in the situation and he wasnt even on duty.


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## friendofdorothy (May 28, 2019)

Lupa said:


> On the whole man whispering thing....
> Ive noticed that in working with teenage boys (many of whom have issues with delinquency) that they do not appreciate getting a telling off from female staff and can act up on foot of a telling off.
> They automatically assume the female teacher is nagging and they will become antagonistic.
> It really pissed me off yesterday when 6 teenage male students were sent into detention to me and they were giving guff and acting up so I gave them a bit of my mind in a pretty forceful manner and they sat down quiet enough. Then a male teacher arrived and for no reason at all started to go to each one and talk to them. He left...and of course the 6 decided it was ok to start acting up again.
> ...


 How annoying. 
Do you think your colleague thought he was being 'helpful'? and do you think he would have acted the same if you had been male?


----------



## Looby (May 28, 2019)

I haven’t had to do this for a while in the workplace but I used to. I worked in finance and then as a civil servant. I had a serious job with lots of responsibility but was often mistaken for the secretary. 

I learned quickly that I had to treat the accountants and solicitors that I dealt with in a way that didn’t appear to be a direct challenge to them. I had to massage egos, cajole, compliment etc to achieve anything or they’d just have a tantrum and shut me down. What I liked best was when they’d ask to speak to my manager because they were all women too. 

I’m now in a field where men are very much in the minority and was recently interviewed by three all women panels. 

It’s refreshing. I’d really like to see more men in the profession though, I don’t think it should be seen as a woman’s job.


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## Baronage-Phase (May 28, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> How annoying.
> Do you think your colleague thought he was being 'helpful'? and do you think he would have acted the same if you had been male?




No idea. Things were fully under control when he came on the scene but he probably heard me giving out a bit earlier. 
If he was doing it to be helpful I would have expected him to come over to me first and ask if everything was ok. Instead he went to the boys (16yr olds) and leaned against the wall and chatted with them about sports etc... I found it odd and I certainly would not do it to a colleague unless they looked for assistance.


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## Winot (May 28, 2019)

Saw a cracking production of death of a Salesman tonight at the Young Vic with Wendell Pierce from The Wire playing Willie Loman. 

Interesting to see it again in the light of this thread: man-whispering at its finest and lots of victims of toxic masculinity and capitalism.


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## spanglechick (May 29, 2019)

Winot said:


> Saw a cracking production of death of a Salesman tonight at the Young Vic with Wendell Pierce from The Wire playing Willie Loman.
> 
> Interesting to see it again in the light of this thread: man-whispering at its finest and lots of victims of toxic masculinity and capitalism.


Arthur Miller is ALL about toxic masculinity.  I think he’d have found that phrase very apt.


----------



## smmudge (May 29, 2019)

Winot said:


> One solution
> 
> Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert



Women are better off not marrying men, men are better off marrying women. So logically, women who marry women are the happiest of all!


----------



## friendofdorothy (May 29, 2019)

smmudge said:


> Women are better off not marrying men, men are better off marrying women. So logically, women who marry women are the happiest of all!


what about men marrying men? I wonder if gay men have to man-whisper?

Me and the girl have just celebrated 25 years and we are very happy, and I'd say that if she wasn't in the room.


----------



## smmudge (May 29, 2019)

I feel miserable when my wife's not in the room with me!


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## Steel Icarus (May 31, 2019)

Wonder if me and Mrs SI are inadvertently man-whispering to our son...and teaching our daughter placatory behaviour around aggressive males. Basically his Asperger's makes it difficult for him to read emotions, and his sister hasn't learned to filter out his "quirks" (endless talking when he's into a subject, annoying or sudden noises, banging things, repetitive behaviours) so she can react to it in a way that frustrates or confuses him. And because he doesn't know why she's cross or tutting or crying he can go from fine to throwing things in a heartbeat.

Don't know how else to tackle it other than modify yourself around him like we do.


----------



## purenarcotic (May 31, 2019)

Would have thought it’d be a bit of both helping her to understand why he does what he does and helping him with strategies for the stuff he finds difficult.


----------



## Manter (Jun 1, 2019)

This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’ 

And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t! 

*i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’
> 
> And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!
> 
> *i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage


Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I should point out we don't excuse his behaviour when he is being aggressive or throwing stuff, but if we can minimise the risk of it getting to that stage, surely that's an acceptable compromise?


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## Manter (Jun 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I should point out we don't excuse his behaviour when he is being aggressive or throwing stuff, but if we can minimise the risk of it getting to that stage, surely that's an acceptable compromise?


Wouldn’t be an acceptable compromise for me. Your daughter needs to learn to be kind and not be mean to him because he has ticks, obviously, but she has to learn to be free and bold and own her own voice, opinions and emotions, not pussyfoot round a man who’s a primed grenade. 

Not least because it internalises that explosions are her fault in some way- she laughed, or cried, or spoke, or didn’t. His behaviour is her fault because if she’d tried harder he wouldn’t have exploded. 

And because he’s going to meet a world that doesn’t dance round him.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’
> 
> And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!
> 
> *i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage


It can also medicalise everything which isn't, in the beholder's mind, "normal" and used to be quite widely used here to belittle


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## spanglechick (Jun 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> Wouldn’t be an acceptable compromise for me. Your daughter needs to learn to be kind and not be mean to him because he has ticks, obviously, but she has to learn to be free and bold and own her own voice, opinions and emotions, not pussyfoot round a man who’s a primed grenade.
> 
> Not least because it internalises that explosions are her fault in some way- she laughed, or cried, or spoke, or didn’t. His behaviour is her fault because if she’d tried harder he wouldn’t have exploded.
> 
> And because he’s going to meet a world that doesn’t dance round him.


I would place the same level of responsibility on her as if he found it hard to regulate his behaviour because he was three*. So, no deliberate winding him up, but if he gets into a rage about something she couldn’t have foreseen, or that is part of the daily give and take in a family, that’s not her fault.   

*which is not to say NNT people are like three year olds.  At all.  But the quick to anger thing seemed like a fair parallel.  Apologies if it’s not.  


I’m often introduced hued by the differences between boys with ASD and girls, who by the time of puberty seem to have more success in moderating and controlling their responses (because of the socialised expectations on girls to people please).  And many ASD adult men have learned these strategies too (to enable them to hold down jobs and have independence). Obviously some NNT are not able to manage in this way, but I’d have thought in adolescence there should be a family emphasis on having responsibility for developing his own coping strategies.


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## Manter (Jun 1, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> I would place the same level of responsibility on her as if he found it hard to regulate his behaviour because he was three*. So, no deliberate winding him up, but if he gets into a rage about something she couldn’t have foreseen, or that is part of the daily give and take in a family, that’s not her fault.
> 
> *which is not to say NNT people are like three year olds.  At all.  But the quick to anger thing seemed like a fair parallel.  Apologies if it’s not.
> 
> ...


 Not deliberately winding him up is basic be kind/don’t be a dick stuff and very different to modifying yourself around him to avoid risk of situations escalating to violence. The latter sets my teeth on edge when girls are learning that about boys


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## bellaozzydog (Jun 1, 2019)

Thank you for a very interesting and thought provoking thread


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## Shirl (Jun 7, 2019)

I've not read all this thread, just the first page. Will read it all once I get the chance.
I've never heard of man-whispering. Which is odd because I realise I've been doing it with my partner for 31years.
I may post more when I've read more.


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## ElizabethofYork (Jun 7, 2019)

I realised I was doing it yesterday when my husband came home in a bad mood and a bit drunk.


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## Manter (Jun 7, 2019)

Shirl said:


> I've not read all this thread, just the first page. Will read it all once I get the chance.
> I've never heard of man-whispering. Which is odd because I realise I've been doing it with my partner for 31years.
> I may post more when I've read more.


I think more and more of us are naming stuff that we have been doing for a while as it allows us to own, mock, and challenge some of this shit. (Eg patriarchy chicken)


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## ElizabethofYork (Jun 7, 2019)

I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up.  Really interesting, and _so_ ingrained!
How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 8, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up.  Really interesting, and _so_ ingrained!
> How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men


Interesting. I hadn't really noticed (but I don't commute on trains often) but will pay more attention now. 

I have made a point of taking up space since I was younger and became aware of how much space men took for themselves and how women seemed to want to make them selves small.   I'm big and heavy and I spread my legs when sitting in that way that men do. I like taking up space.


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## keithy (Jun 8, 2019)

Had an argument with a man who expected me to shut up complaining about his wife shoving her bag into my feet as it wouldn't fit properly under my seat on the plane. He was trying to put me in my place and I didn't let him, instead choosing to make him look like a dick head by standing my ground and making a bit of a belittling remark to him. 

I could tell he didn't expect this response. 

Men think they already know the narrative, and it usually involves women just letting them have their own way etc. Well they can fuck off with that.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 8, 2019)

Man whispering...

I needed to meet my neighbours for a street party con-flab on the same evening as a choir social so booked a table at the pub at the end of my road from 6:30...Street party meeting 6:30-7:00pm choir social after....Long table booked for 12...

I arrive just before 6:30...neighbours from the street shortly after...we get stuck in...this, tick, that, tick. anything else who will do it? other things, yes I will do it.. streamlined meeting because we have met 4 times already and mostly things are done.

The long table we are at is marked reserved...

A man sits down at the end table...4 chairs away from our meeting is taking up because the size of the table reflects the choir arrivees at 7pm... No problem at this point.

We are deep in 'check, has this been done?'. 'look here are the flyers, who is going to door knock and spam the cars' mode and this blokes starts up...

'What's all this about then?'
We all stop talking and look at him.
'Oh a street party, you need to speak to my wife.'
Is she here? Why do we need to speak to her?
'No, but...When we do it it is like x, y, z.'
Okay mate. Thanks for the suggestions.
'Yeah but, I am well known around here and our street party is the same day as yours so you need to do x, y, z...'
Thanks mate, most of that is sorted...no problem, enjoy your day, great we are all doing this kind of thing etc

We focus on each other, he repeatedly tries to interrupt again. My neighbours leave as my choir peeps arrive...we fill up the table that we have booked...he continues to sit there at the end of the table forcing people to squeeze around him to gain access to the back of the table...I watch my choir mates look embarrassed as they have to squeeze themselves between a wall and a random guy who is merely squatting our reserved table. He laughs and says it's okay, fine, no problem.

WTF...no it is not fine.

I get out of my seat and move up the table...then separate the table he is on from the rest so that anyone else arriving does not have to squeeze past nor touch this twit to sit down at the table...he is incensed by this..

'What are you doing?'
 'I have been coming to this pub for 25 years and have never been excluded from anything!'

I point out that my friends should not have to squeeze past him to be able to sit down at the table that we have reserved and he is actually taking space up on. I ask him not to take it personally.

'Well I do..because...'

I didn't hear the reason why...I just lost my rag and told him to 'grow the fuck up.' I moved around to my chair and basically myself and the choir friends talked about what a fucking idiot he was until he moved and started chewing someone's ear off at at the bar.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 9, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up.  Really interesting, and _so_ ingrained!
> How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men


I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....

I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so,   tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move


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## Manter (Jun 9, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....
> 
> I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so,   tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move


I’ve had a couple of shoulder barges in Paddington station because they assume i’ll Move and then when I don’t their reactions are slowed by surprise. Which if you weren’t as tall as me might make you think twice about doing it again... which I guess is how this stuff gets ingrained


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## Poot (Jun 9, 2019)

A man actually tripped over and landed on me in Morrisons a couple of weeks ago. I don't think I will try this, tempting as it sounds. Self preservation and safety first!  (I'm not even _that_ short - probably 5'2" but wow these days the invisibility cloak is really working its magic!)


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

People walking into you just sounds like London to me


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## killer b (Jun 9, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> I'd never heard of patriarchy chicken before, so looked it up.  Really interesting, and _so_ ingrained!
> How to play Patriarchy Chicken: why I refuse to move out of the way for men


I read this article a bit ago and have been paying more attention to how I move through public spaces since - I was surprised to discover my default is to barge on through. Totally unconscious to it previously...


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## Poot (Jun 9, 2019)

S☼I said:


> People walking into you just sounds like London to me


Not even - it was in my home town and not during my half term trip to London (which confirmed that I would be a small stain on the pavement having been trampled by phone zombies if I wasn't particularly nippy!)


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## Winot (Jun 9, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Man whispering...
> 
> I needed to meet my neighbours for a street party con-flab on the same evening as a choir social so booked a table at the pub at the end of my road from 6:30...Street party meeting 6:30-7:00pm choir social after....Long table booked for 12...
> 
> ...



Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

Poot said:


> Not even - it was in my home town and not during my half term trip to London (which confirmed that I would be a small stain on the pavement having been trampled by phone zombies if I wasn't particularly nippy!)


Again, I'm sure being the size I am makes people be "miraculously" not in my way if I'm  walking along but I so often worry about it because I'm clumsy and awkward with it. 

I very rarely go to crowded places - I live in a small town and only venture into a bigger one for work, which at the moment isn't busy times of day. 

I had an incident a few years back that upset me, I couldn't shake it off for weeks. I was in London to see a band at the O2 and was waiting for a train after at Canada Dock, very busy and very late, maybe the last train. As it pulled in I noticed a young mum with pram next to me so said "Here, let me help you with that", nipped on ahead of her to pick up the far end of the pram...and she wheeled it on. I didn't realize train doors are level with the platform. 

So some big fella rumbled at me that perhaps I shouldn't have pushed in if I wanted to help. I froze, thinking anything I do is gonna make things worse, but the mum was looking at me like shit, it seemed every passenger around me was also. So I kept my head down until I got off. 

And yeah, I'm typing this and have only just thought how she must have felt to have yet another bloke take the piss and push ahead of her. Even though it was a mistake. And no, I'm not claiming #notallpushersin either


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 9, 2019)

Winot said:


> Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.


There is definitely a breed of Pub Bloke who think they're entitled to get in on anything happening in that pub, and can be particularly pushy with women. There was one guy at my local (he's stopped drinking now, a good thing for everyone) who would constantly ask questions to random visitors even if they were having a conversation, and use that as an excuse to talk about himself. Women on their own or in pairs would definitely get more of this. Once I saw him talking to a women who was there with her husband - they started off politely replying but obviously got increasingly tired of his nonsense, yet he didn't get the hint. Eventually when he carried on asking stuff and the woman's husband had gone to the loo she turned and said sharply "I don't think that's any of your business actually" and he was completely shocked. He did apologise and stop though, at least with them.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 9, 2019)

Winot said:


> Christ what a dick. I felt awkward just reading that. Do men like that have no awareness of how they come over, or do they just not care? And it’s always a man isn’t it. You’d never get a woman doing that.



It was really bloody annoying.    I would have been embarrassed for him if I wasn't so shocked that he expected the women from my choir to squeeze themselves between him and the wall chuckling to himself each time, telling them not to worry, it is okay, he's not bothered etc as if they were in danger of inconveniencing him!   He wasn't the usual bar-fly half cut already type either. Just a poncy, self-important, entitled twat. I fully expect to bump into him again too at some point. I will never give that type of man an inch. Fuck that.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 9, 2019)

Manter said:


> This has triggered a thought about how often male bad (or just odd) behaviour elicits a response of ‘maybe he’s on the spectrum’*. I’ve sat in so many conversations with women who are being treated badly where there is a ‘maybe it’s just how his mind works’ ‘I’ve always wondered whether he was on the spectrum’ or ‘do you think that these days he’d be diagnosed’
> 
> And I think it lets men off the hook for shitty behaviour, because NNT doesn’t = being foul to women, violent, scary, threatening, dangerous, rude, selfish, unfeeling, thoughtless etc. It just doesn’t!
> 
> *i know that isn’t how a spectrum works and we are *all* on the spectrum. But I’m talking about common not correct usage


A couple of answers here 

First off an interesting article  that made me rethink about the spectrum-rather than everyone being on it, it's an idea of the constellation of manifestations of autism "It's a Spectrum" Doesn't Mean What You Think

Second,  there are some things that may never be understood by a couple on either side of the neuro typical/neuro diverse ...there are going to be ways of being in the world that may be hard for each partner to accept or understand ...I think I've been out with two people that might be NNT ....we had very different needs and ways of conducting communication ...I couldnt change my need and they couldn't change theirs


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## wtfftw (Jun 9, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Again, I'm sure being the size I am makes people be "miraculously" not in my way if I'm  walking along but I so often worry about it because I'm clumsy and awkward with it.
> 
> I very rarely go to crowded places - I live in a small town and only venture into a bigger one for work, which at the moment isn't busy times of day.
> 
> ...


Just to take your first paragraph really. Interestingly I've found as I get older and fatter people move out of my way less (so big doesn't equal others moving). I'm not sure if I'm less visible with age or permitted less public space as fat punishment. Or just some less attractive woman alignment of shit. I've always pushed back on barrelling men. I've got firm shoulders and a distant stare.

Side note on helping with a pram. Get an affirmative to an offer before proceeding. The amount of times I've been helped an actually they've not understood the precarious balance happening and it's quite scary if someone just grabs your child bag without checking.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

wtfftw said:


> Just to take your first paragraph really. Interestingly I've found as I get older and fatter people move out of my way less (so big doesn't equal others moving). I'm not sure if I'm less visible with age or permitted less public space as fat punishment. Or just some less attractive woman alignment of shit. I've always pushed back on barrelling men. I've got firm shoulders and a distant stare.
> 
> Side note on helping with a pram. Get an affirmative to an offer before proceeding. The amount of times I've been helped an actually they've not understood the precarious balance happening and it's quite scary if someone just grabs your child bag without checking.


No, there's obviously something else isn't there. Big man = potential threat, perhaps, for women, potential dominant male for shorter men.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

Dp


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 9, 2019)

I have emotional labour on my mind this morning. My house is a mess and it occurred to me that as I have an adult male living with me right now (a friend, a very decent and kind man I may add) that it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to ask him to join in with the cleaning today- I mean he walks on the floors, uses the cooker, toilet, shower, sink, work tops etc etc. But even though as stated, he is a thoroughly decent guy I feel a sense of trepidation about raising it with him. Will I be seen as bossy? will I make him feel attacked, criticised or guilty when it occurs to him that he doesn't just do this stuff without asking. I feel tired before I've even spoken to him about it as I've already given it such a lot of thought  I've already contextualised and understood that the reason he probably does not see these things as his responsibility is that a woman has come along and done it for him previously. His dishes have magically disappeared, his clothes washed, his spills cleared, his bin emptied, his mess tidied away, the toilet cleaned after him, the toilet roll replaced, the sink swilled etc etc etfuckingcetera. 

It reminded me of this wonderful thread which I so wish every man was forced willing  to commit the emotional labour to read (oh the ironing) 
But of course I just started reading it again instead and found this gem again- "
To quote the late great Douglas Adams: “_An SEP [Somebody Else’s Problem field] is something we can’t see,
or don’t see, or our brain doesn’t let us see, because we think that it’s somebody else’s problem.... The brain
just edits it out, it’s like a blind spot. If you look at it directly you won’t see it unless you know precisely what
it is. Your only hope is to catch it by surprise out of the corner of your eye... it relies on people’s natural
disposition not to see anything they don’t want to, weren’t expecting, or can’t explain.”_


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 9, 2019)

Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.

On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 9, 2019)

Clair De Lune


----------



## ice-is-forming (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.
> 
> On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.



You are my hero


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## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Patriarchy Chicken: was strolling through the park with a woman friend, having a chat and pausing to enjoy stuff. Large bloke with two dogs walked straight toward us, directly into us, without pausing. On a wide path. His two dogs went to either side of us and this bloke walked straight through. My mate stepped to the side. I stood still, just stopped walking, looked straight ahead and made an open handed wtf? gesture. As he marched past us I turned to looked at him, mainly because I was kinda flabbergasted at his brazen bollockery, and found that he was staring hard at us. I continued to look at him and he shouted “What’s your problem, eh?” To which I called “You just walked straight over us!” and then of course I got the “Get a life, fuck off”s and the threatening pause and turn back towards us, with his dogs also turning to face us. Because of the dogs I immediately disengaged and retreated from the whole thing.
> 
> On the tube the other day and a young bloke sat beside me and spread his skinny legs out so far I thought he must be having a laugh with a mate or something. I started to shift my legs out of his way then decided not to even though his leg was now resting against mine, because I was getting off at the next stop. Had I been staying on longer I would have said something to him. As I got up, I deliberately didn’t adjust or change my own behaviour to accommodate his stupidly sprawling legs, and actually bumped against him. So of course he was all like “Huh? What?” and did the open handed wtf gesture at me. So I paused, stood directly in front of him - which meant that I was now standing between his extended legs - and said while waving at his thighs and crotch “This is manspreading”. I guess he felt suddenly vulnerable because now he can’t close his stupid legs and suddenly I’m the one in a position of power. As I left I saw him looking around for support, but in fact there were more women than men in that section, and as I got off the train two of them swiftly made the “Are you okay?” signals that women pass to each other, and I returned the “Yes thanks I’m fine” signals to them.


It always strikes me with manspreading that the greater the display the less there is to see


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Clair De Lune



 Scarily accurate


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 9, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> Scarily accurate


The other day I said to him 'babe, would you mind putting the oven dishes back inside the oven after you're done using it please?' and he looked at me sorta blankly, blinking like a confused child. He said 'oh I do, don't I?' and I laughed and said 'well no, that's why I'm saying it' and again the blank look. So I had to explain that the reason he might not realise that he's not doing it, is that when they are left out, they are in my way, so I clear them away. I could tell that he still didn't believe me.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> It always strikes me with manspreading that the greater the display the less there is to see


That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 9, 2019)

S☼I said:


> That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say


Yes. Might be a good one to bring up on the other thread- how male cock size gets brought up a lot in relation to how dominant they behave.


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## Pickman's model (Jun 9, 2019)

S☼I said:


> That's the sort of thing patriarchy makes men say


It's much of a piece with the auld axiom that the people who talk loudest about something have the least experience or knowledge of it


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## RubyToogood (Jun 9, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> The other day I said to him 'babe, would you mind putting the oven dishes back inside the oven after you're done using it please?' and he looked at me sorta blankly, blinking like a confused child. He said 'oh I do, don't I?' and I laughed and said 'well no, that's why I'm saying it' and again the blank look. So I had to explain that the reason he might not realise that he's not doing it, is that when they are left out, they are in my way, so I clear them away. I could tell that he still didn't believe me.


The following negotiation with the best of my exes will always be engraved on my memory. It went roughly as follows.

Me: "Why do I always make dinner?"
Him: "It's because we're always at yours."
Me: "Yes but if I go to yours you never offer food."
Him: "Oh. I suppose I _could_ make dinner."
Me: "How about tomorrow?"

The next day.
Him: "What do you want me to cook?"
Me: "I don't know. How about spaghetti with tomato sauce? That's quite easy."
Him: "How do you want me to chop this onion?"

Etc etc.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

Manter said:


> I was being flippant, but slightly less flippantly, even if you manage to meet someone who has kicked over some of the worst bits of the patriarchy, you are still living in a world sodden with it, so you get all that negative judgement



Ann's parents - both of them - were very much into negative judgement if she showed aptitude for anything considered "masculine", like being able to solder, or strip and rebuild her bike, all through her life. People try to claim it's a generational thing, but it isn't in my experience, it's patriarchy and the sexism and gender roles it feeds.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

Rebelda said:


> If some women treat ALL MEN (omg) as a threat because of some men, that's something men need to deal with isn't it? Get your house in order.



The sad and pathetic thing is, that every time in my lifetime, that men have come together to try and break through the bullshit, they get sidetracked into women-blaming, and men's rights activism "Iron John" caveman crap. 
Why? Because we seem pathologically unable - as a sex, and sometimes at an individual level - to take responsibility for our actions, preferring to shift the blame and scapegoat someone "weaker" than us.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 9, 2019)

Why, though?

I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.

But why the patriarchy?

I mean, yeah, I get that it’s a huge self service gargantuan embedded self perpetuating edifice. But why? What made it? And why is it so resilient?

I mean I know the answer to that is nice again “Because the patriarchy...” 

Ad infinitum....

But...


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why, though?
> 
> I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.
> 
> ...


I'm currently reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari who addresses and also gives convincing arguments against three theories regarding the existence of the patriarchy: men being stronger physically; men with more competitive genes being more successful at finding mates; and men being simply more aggressive. 

He doesn't have an answer for "why patriarchy?".


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 9, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'm currently reading Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari who addresses and also gives convincing arguments against three theories regarding the existence of the patriarchy: men being stronger physically; men with more competitive genes being more successful at finding mates; and men being simply more aggressive.
> 
> He doesn't have an answer for "why patriarchy?".





In my teens and twenties I was like a terrier with the question, asking older women and (more rarely) men, reading books, endless discussions with mates, even asking strangers on trains with whom I’d fallen into conversation. I phrased it in a dozen different ways but it comes down to a sense of real bewilderment about a basic question.

How and why did this happen?

 It feels to me that we can’t truly take it apart unless we have some idea about how and why we set it up in the first place.

Was it just an incrementally accumulative process? Was it the agrarian revolution and the consequence of owning the land? Is it because men are scared of our power to produce new life? Is it innate? And when did women agree? Did we go along with it from the start?

 But at root, just why and how.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 9, 2019)

It's unlikely to have happened by accident given its prevalence all over the place in societies that didn't come into contact with one another. 

To flip this question around...if it's "always been", what's been different about the last hundred or even fifty years that advances towards at least a nominal equality have been made, or is it illusory that there weren't many challenges to the patriarchal system before the industrial revolution/the two wars?


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why, though?
> 
> I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.
> 
> ...


The thing is that there doesn't have to be a good reason. It can just be something that happened which is not the end product of history or any of that crap.

There's a massive amount of intellectual effort put in to justify every single principle of society as the only logical thing that could have happened, the pinnacle of human social evolution and so on, from monarchy to neoliberalism, with associated distortions of history. You'd think from what we get taught that societies move from less to more hierarchical systems as a natural result of them increasing in size and complexity, the whole idea of "progressing" from hunter gatherers to agriculture, but it turns out that that is bollocks not just from a theoretical perspective but from a historical one - there have been large and complex societies which weren't set up anything like certain people claim they would have needed to have been.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

Edie said:


> I’m honestly fucking amazed at how backwards a lot of the men on this site are. Seriously. Wtaf.



I really don't understand the sense of entitlement, of "lordship" over women, that some blokes have. It's like they're immune to analysing their own actions. Bluntly, it's sociopathic. I can be as big an arsehole as the next bloke, but I've never hassled a woman for a date, or for her attention, and I stopped making stupid comments about periods and PMT when I was in my teens. 
That said, I need to be more proactive in calling out arseholes who do act like entitled shitbags.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

Edie said:


> Most men don’t deny shit, they just don’t understand it, think it doesn’t apply to them, or secretly think it’s unfair. The evidence is on this thread.



Most of us don't want to own our behaviour. If we did, it'd be a good step toward setting some things aright.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 9, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> I really don't understand the sense of entitlement, of "lordship" over women, that some blokes have. It's like they're immune to analysing their own actions. Bluntly, it's sociopathic. I can be as big an arsehole as the next bloke, but I've never hassled a woman for a date, or for her attention, and I stopped making stupid comments about periods and PMT when I was in my teens.
> That said, I need to be more proactive in calling out arseholes who do act like entitled shitbags.


Unfortunately, and maybe this is better for the male experiences of patriarchy thread, but I _can_ understand and empathise with it. There are some prejudices that I've basically never understood, like antisemitism which I didn't even know existed until I heard about it, but this isn't one of them. I can feel how things can just flip over into active hatred and also how it's very resilient - the sense of bitterness and unfairness combined with objectification. Sometimes I think that if it weren't for some random factors I could be one of the shitty internet misogynists that we see all the time, though I'd like to think I have some level of basic decency that would stop that.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> Like if this were the 1800s I'd be the one put in the asylum for not conforming



Sadly, that was still happening into the 1970s.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 9, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Why, though?
> 
> I mean, yeah the patriarchy and all that.
> 
> ...



I think that any explanation needs to account for many different factors: Everything from acquisitiveness, to hierarchism, to capitalism, to standard "winner"/"loser" power relations, and loads more besides. 
Maybe it's easier to answer "why is it self-perpetuating?!, to which a quick answer would be "because it's still the simplest form of exploitation, given existing dynamics between the sexes, both in the home and the workplace". I'm not aware of any polity where "sexual equality" actually means sexual equality, and until it does, asymmetric power relations between the sexes will continue.

Yeah, I know, bit of a circular argument.


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## Manter (Jun 9, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Unfortunately, and maybe this is better for the male experiences of patriarchy thread, but I _can_ understand and empathise with it. There are some prejudices that I've basically never understood, like antisemitism which I didn't even know existed until I heard about it, but this isn't one of them. I can feel how things can just flip over into active hatred and also how it's very resilient - the sense of bitterness and unfairness combined with objectification. Sometimes I think that if it weren't for some random factors I could be one of the shitty internet misogynists that we see all the time, though I'd like to think I have some level of basic decency that would stop that.


Liked because you admitted it. Iyswim. I think all humans have light and dark in them and you can choose what to feed- but you have to constantly feed it. It’s so easy to just.... not..... and let society shape you. Be that racism, sexism, violence, whatever


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## Manter (Jun 11, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> I read this a little while ago ...I think manter might have shared it on Facebook....
> 
> I often go through Waterloo on my commute so I've tried this game there....I discovered that if you look up and not at men, they move out of the way...Its made me wonder if I've been doing a lot of scanning and by doing so,   tacitly accepting that I'll move out the way...when I don't scan they don't know I'm going to move so they move


Patriarchy chicken update; I don’t do it at 10pm when it’s dark and I am walking home alone. I wouldn’t provoke a man however mildly where there aren’t people and cameras and lights....


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## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 11, 2019)

Yesterday I had to take my car to the mechanic.  I knew from the check engine light code (and the leaking oil) what the problem was.  I even printed off the sheet showing what the code said and handed it to the mechanic.  When he called me later in the day to tell me what he had determined.  He explained in great detail what the problem was--exactly what I had told him the problem was earlier in the morning.  He went on the explain how he had read the code, and also explained this in great detail.  Clearly he hadn't listened to a word I'd said earlier in the day when I told _him_ what the problem was.  But, instead of pointing this out, I shut my little woman mouth and practically congratulated him on his great diagnostic skills.  I can't tell if it was reflex or just practicality.  In any case, its just easier to let him treat me like I haven't a brain in my head, than it is to argue with him about it.


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

I never have to tread carefully around the women i my life, no I can't think of a dingle example where I've had to put things just so in order to avoid confrontation. 


I don't understand why anyone feels the need to talk about this in terms of gender, ime men and women are just as likely to need this kind of treatment.


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yesterday I had to take my car to the mechanic.  I knew from the check engine light code (and the leaking oil) what the problem was.  I even printed off the sheet showing what the code said and handed it to the mechanic.  When he called me later in the day to tell me what he had determined.  He explained in great detail what the problem was--exactly what I had told him the problem was earlier in the morning.  He went on the explain how he had read the code, and also explained this in great detail.  Clearly he hadn't listened to a word I'd said earlier in the day when I told _him_ what the problem was.  But, instead of pointing this out, I shut my little woman mouth and practically congratulated him on his great diagnostic skills.  I can't tell if it was reflex or just practicality.  In any case, its just easier to let him treat me like I haven't a brain in my head, than it is to argue with him about it.



When you work in repairs you tend not to listen too much to the customer because they often get it wrong, you still have to carry out the diagnostic checks or you might miss something. The gender of the customer isn't important, if anything it's usually the men who think they're the expert and already know what the problem is.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I never have to tread carefully around the women i my life, no I can't think of a dingle example where I've had to put things just so in order to avoid confrontation.
> 
> 
> I don't understand why anyone feels the need to talk about this in terms of gender, ime men and women are just as likely to need this kind of treatment.



We already did this bit at the beginning of the thread.


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> We already did this bit at the beginning of the thread.



 Good, I'm not the only one with some sense of perspective then


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> Good, I'm not the only one with some sense of perspective then


You're not the only one to miss the point


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

The point involves ignoring the fact both genders are capable of being arseholes?


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## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> The point involves ignoring the fact both genders are capable of being arseholes?



You're half way to proving that proposition.


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

and still lacking an explanation as to why


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

Read the thread.


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## dylanredefined (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> In my teens and twenties I was like a terrier with the question, asking older women and (more rarely) men, reading books, endless discussions with mates, even asking strangers on trains with whom I’d fallen into conversation. I phrased it in a dozen different ways but it comes down to a sense of real bewilderment about a basic question.
> 
> How and why did this happen?
> 
> ...



Guess it's all comes down to babies . Men not giving birth are less vital to the tribe. So can be allowed to do high risk high reward stuff as if a few get killed tribes still survives.


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## campanula (Jun 12, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> Guess it's all comes down to babies



Not to mention the truth of that very old saying 'it's a wise child who know it's own father'...which, I think, is behind the fear men have of women...particularly women's biology (which must be controlled...by men.


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

There seem to be two types of examples on the thread which is confusing things.

Some people are posting examples from within their relationships, quite mundane things which are completely equivalent to the sort of behaviour you get from many women.

Then there are other legitimate examples of men in clubs pretty much harrassing women and getting aggressive if knocked back unless the woman delicately extricates herself with some man whispering.

It's not a good idea to label both these behaviours as the same, if you do then it shouldn't be surprising when people respond with "but my wife does that"


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## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

campanula said:


> Not to mention the truth of that very old saying 'it's a wise child who know it's own father'...which, I think, is behind the fear men have of women...particularly women's biology (which must be controlled...by men.



Why is it important for a father to know kids are his?   It's arguable that this preoccupation developed at the same time as societies began to accumulate wealth that could be passed to the next generation i.e. the owners if capital wanting to 'protect' it.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Why is it important for a father to know kids are his?   It's arguable that this preoccupation developed at the same time as societies began to accumulate wealth that could be passed to the next generation i.e. the owners if capital wanting to 'protect' it.




There are good examples of matrilineal societies. In many ways it makes better sense to pass things down the mother’s line because there’s less chance of getting the lineage wrong. And yet...


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

I do think part of it is basic ownership of the land. In some ways it makes no fucking sense to “own” the land. But once we started farming plants, which can’t move, we needed to guard and protect the crop, and thus the land. The land is equated with Mother Earth, and that seems universal. So fencing the land led to fencing womanhood led to fencing and owning women?


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I do think part of it is basic ownership of the land. In some ways it makes no fucking sense to “own” the land. But once we started farming plants, which can’t move, we needed to guard and protect the crop, and thus the land. The land is equated with Mother Earth, and that seems universal. So fencing the land led to fencing womanhood led to fencing and owning women?



I think pre agricultural humans also "owned" women....didn't they? It's older than agriculture.

Non agricultural tribes around today still seem to have plenty of patriarchal customs at least.


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## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> There are good examples of matrilineal societies. In many ways it makes better sense to pass things down the mother’s line because there’s less chance of getting the lineage wrong. And yet...



Mothers didn't have it pass on; the first capital was in the form of tools, which, largely as a result of physical differences, were in the hands of men.


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## trabuquera (Jun 12, 2019)

The move to agriculture was almost certainly the main giant leap backwards for women in human cultures, but even among hunter-gatherer and nomadic, herding societies, there are different balances of power. Raiding and 'stealing' of women and girls as wives, domestic violence, gender segregation of labour etc, all fairly common even in more egalitarian and non-settled setups. Notoriously, in hunter gatherer societies it's nearly all women's work (foraging roots, fishing, gathering plants and small prey) that actually keeps people alive from day to day, but men going out and killing bigger animals gets massively more prestige and kudos, even if it only ever happens intermittently. (Sound familiar?  ). Perhaps because unfortunately humans really really really like eating meat. Also, not all cultures are alike even if they live on similar resources - there's a lot of difference between say Yanomamo in the Amazon and Khoi/San in the Kalahari desert or Batwa groups in the equatorial African forest when it comes to patriarchy.

Also matrilinearity doesn't necessarily mean matriarchy (see several cultures in Ghana - where inheritance of goods, land and titles goes down the female line, women work, and there's more equality, but men still 'dominate' and there's plenty of DV etc to go around, plenty of shaming of nonconformist women, men can have several wives but no woman can have several husbands etc etc etc.) There's a good account of how it plays out in practice in a book by Kwame Anthony Appiah called 'In My Father's House' which explores it - he points out wryly that as the son of a Ghanaian dad and a British mum, his mother's culture passed most responsibility to the father's line, while his father's passed it down the mother's line, so who was really in charge?

There's a group in Meghalaya (far far north eastern India) which is matrilineal and they're not the happiest folks in the world as I recall. Same goes for the Chinese subgroup called the Na who're famous for recognising "neither husbands nor fathers" - and while women there are free to choose men for as much or as little romantic time as they like, in practice, most kids grow up being protected by their mums' brothers (ie their maternal uncles) and those uncles are the real bosses in society.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I think pre agricultural humans also "owned" women....didn't they? It's older than agriculture.
> 
> Non agricultural tribes around today still seem to have plenty of patriarchal customs at least.




There’s no way of knowing. We think the first grains were collected for food about 20,000 years ago. The earliest evidence we have for deliberately growing grain was about 9,500 years ago, but it may have been earlier. And I reckon fruit trees and bushes would have been tended and monitored and valued long before grains were cultivated.

All of this can only ever be speculative.

Another possibility is that men were so scared and dumbfounded by women bleeding and not dying, and bringing forth life from their body, that they had to curtail and subjugate them.

We’ll never know. But it’s a question I’ve always asked “when did it start, why and how did it begin?”

Athos ’s idea that it was tools supposes that women didn't use tools. That seems very unlikely to me. Totally unlikely. Weapons, maybe, but not tools.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

There have been some really interesting recent studies that show that the Yamnaya rode throughout Europe and elsewhere and seeding their DNA throughout the entire population, also committing genocide as they went. I wonder if that had some kind of trigger effect in the whole of humanity. This was about 5000 years ago. Not saying it was all peaches and cream before that, but it looks like it was a huge event that caused permanent change.

Here’s the New Scientist link (which is behind a paywall) but lots of other publications reported these findings too.

Story of most murderous people of all time revealed in ancient DNA


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## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

yes, i'm pretty sure women would have used plenty of tools. obv we don't know for sure but in non agricultural tribes around today women use all sorts of tools. cutting tools to prepare hides, thin needle like things to weave & prep nets, combs, pestels and mortars, fire lighting kits, clothes, ornaments....

I reckon anything of worth would have been coveted and that would have included women, when did it start? as soon as any individual realised they had the strength to take something from another I suppose.


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## Edie (Jun 12, 2019)

Sorry to barge in but as some of you know if your on the sofa, I’m having a pretty visceral experience of trying to stop man-whispering at the moment and the wild and angry side of me wants to share it.

For absolutely years (17 years) I have managed a man’s temper and proclivity to do whatever the fuck he wants (go out on drinking benders, drugs, use working girls, have an affair, leave, be an alcoholic). 

For the first 10 years I didn’t even recognise it as a problem. That’s partly cos my early years were fucked up and I used drugs too, and partly cos it is so normalised in our society that men can act like that, go out drinking and womanising, that it just _wasn’t_ that far from ‘the norm’ at times.

Then the violence was intermittent and mundane. Not serious or dramatic.  Throwing stuff, throwing me, grabbing and shaking, slaps round the back of my head, slamming me into a door frame. I managed it by ignoring it, smoothing it over, forgiving him, capitulating, agreeing with him.

The reason I did that was because I thought the kids and I were genuinely better off if we stayed together. I earnt peanuts compared to him. And we loved him.

Even when the violence moved from being against me to being against the kids, after he’d left, I still thought the best way, the SAFEST way, of managing it was to minimise it and keep communication open.

Now in retrospect i shot myself in the foot. Social services and the police wanted to prosecute him, and I didn’t think that was best for the kids cos they’d lose their Dad. So I carried on man-whispering instead.

You may read this and think it’s a terribly extreme example of ‘man whispering’ and not really what the thrust of the thread is about. But here’s the thing, the very culture that encourages this shady, permissive behaviour towards men in all number of myriad ways- it creates the backdrop and expectations on which the darker shit plays out.

Man whispering is using passive and negotiating and even manipulate skills because you don’t have the power or the confidence to be assertive. It’s unhealthy. And ultimately, potentially dangerous for some of us.


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## polly (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Athos ’s idea that it was tools supposes that women didn't use tools. That seems very unlikely to me. Totally unlikely. Weapons, maybe, but not tools.



My sister did her PhD on this and someone else did a paper simultaneously in the States on the same subject. Injuries to bones show that some (#notallwomen) women did a lot more of the heavy hunter gatherer work than we'd previously assumed. Certainly used tools, also used weapons. I can probably get more detail but don't know any off the top of my head.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

polly said:


> My sister did her PhD on this and someone else did a paper simultaneously in the States on the same subject. Injuries to bones show that some (#notallwomen) women did a lot more of the heavy hunter gatherer work than we'd previously assumed. Certainly used tools, also used weapons. I can probably get more detail but don't know any off the top of my head.




Yes, I’m pretty sure I’ve read somewhere about how Neolithic women were equally involved as the men, and sometimes more so. I didn’t have the confidence to say so earlier (because I’m a crap feminist really) so thanks for making me remember what I read somewhere sometime!


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## polly (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> (because I’m a crap feminist really)



Hush your mouth  

I'll try to get some sense from her about it. If I get anything useful I'll post it.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 12, 2019)

So why have things changed? Because although things are far from.ideal, things HAVE changed in the last 100 or even 25 years


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> So why have things changed? Because although things are far from.ideal, things HAVE changed in the last 100 or even 25 years




Dunno *shrug*


That’s really all I can say about that. I’m tired of thinking about it and talking about it. Every so often I just need to turn the volume down on the whole entire thing, because otherwise I feel angry and sad a lot, I mean over and above any other angry sad shit I’m dealing with. And war and arms deals and politics and food poverty and all the other shit-show shit is all bound up with the patriarchy, and I can’t do anything about it, because I’m a woman. This is why men need to step up: because otherwise it’s never going to be unpicked.

I’m not dismissing the question, I’m really not. It’s a huge and hugely important question because understanding how and why makes it more possible to undo it and stop doing it. And I’m deeply and massively relieved that finally men are asking these questions. But I’d quite like a break now please. Just a short one, because I know it will take all of us to do this work. But it would be so lovely if men could shoulder some of the burden now please, and women can just slack off enough, just enough, to rest and recover and stop being angry, so that we can all do it together.

Peace and love and all that stuff, ever hopeful....


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> But it would be so lovely if men could shoulder some of the burden now please, and women can just slack off enough, just enough, to rest and recover and stop being angry, so that we can all do it together.


See this is where I think it could come over as accusatory especially to men who think rightly or wrongly they ARE doing this.


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## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Massive hugs Edie. I think you are very brave to try and break the cycle and I *completely agree* that the little/mundane stuff enables the big scarier stuff.


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## trabuquera (Jun 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> So why have things changed? Because although things are far from.ideal, things HAVE changed in the last 100 or even 25 years


Because of contraception and mass media you dingbat!  (< I mean it with affection, honestly.)

Ever since survival's become less dependent on brute physical strength and labour, because we weren't all wielding scythes or mining coal any more, women's evident capacities have become more obvious. It's possible to escape your area/tribe/nation/family's culture and join another if you don't like it. Because women got the vote in the end and as soon as they did, society didn't collapse, but it became more obvious that they too were/are human beings with choices. It can all still go to sh*t in a moment, especially in times of war, or on a night bus for that matter, but fewer people these days are willing to maintain that women *really are* all hopeless idiots to be, at best, protected and told what to do, for their own safety. 

I still say that the availability of birth control worldwide is going to change things far more than we can begin to imagine and in historical terms that process is only just beginning. It might seem, what with the incels and the manspreaders and whatnot that sexism is as bad as it ever was, if not worse - but that's a false reading. Progress is being made (in the teeth of vicious resistance) and there's so much still to do. But patriarchy is not inescapable. It isn't even inevitable. No matter how wearying it gets, there can be no giving up. It needs breaking, just like belief in witchcraft or the divine right of kings.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> See this is where I think it could come over as accusatory especially to men who think rightly or wrongly they ARE doing this.




Really?!

I thought we had travelled past the point where everything had to be wrapped in caveats like NAMNAW.

To be clear, I recognise acknowledge and am grateful to the men who are our allies, who are working to understand and overturn the patriarchy, who are ambassadors for women, who do the hard work of self examination and self directed change. I salute and give thanks to and for those men who pull their weigh, do their share, join in, look around to see where the gaps and holes are. I also salute and give thanks to those men (and they are legion) who do their share of “men’s work” and bringing home the bacon while sacrificing their free time, and their close relationships with their own children, so that their partners can be at home doing the nurturing care giving and child rearing, and who honour and respect that work, while unstintingly and uncomplainingly carry on trying to make things work and ends meet inside this nasty machine.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 12, 2019)

S☼I said:


> See this is where I think it could come over as accusatory especially to men who think rightly or wrongly they ARE doing this.


It's not a test that can be passed once and for all

Any unpicking/ dismantling of oppressive systems goes in fits and starts of understandings and non understandings 

Energised by recent public debate on women's experiences I'm looking more closely at my own behaviour and expectations of my relationships with men and finding things I can change 

So when you say you're already doing it,  do you mean you're already aware of the need to go ever deeper into your own and other males behaviour and reframe them in light of how it affects women?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 12, 2019)

I didn't say "I". Was talking generally, and thinking perhaps outside of the urban bubble. It's all well and good receptive blokes being asked to step up in the good fight but those less enlightened?


----------



## campanula (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Why is it important for a father to know kids are his



You don't have any, do you Athos...because I will guarantee you wouldn't be so blase about patrimony if you had...although I will also agree wholeheartedly that blood is not thicker than water and a parent is simply one who parents (my, dragging up all the old saws today, Camps) 
In my limited experience, the men who are actively engaged with child-rearing (including the huge acceptance and even sacrifice involved in raising dependents), tend to develop a less selfish and self-centred capacity. Often seen as a disadvantage (by owners of capital) for men to become so...'feminised'...but for women, well, it is always an improvement, sharing the emotional load of offspring. Obviously, this is purely anecdotal (but have seen a lot of relationships reach a crisis at precisely the point where a new life is added to the mix...and certainly, when my feminism was formed in the 70s, there was a LOT of time spend in consideration of female biology - how it impacted in the wider world...with childcare being a wedge issue (who did it...and why.)

The biological difference resulting in childbirth and the subsequent years of effort in raising the new generation) has always been a fulcrum upon which economic, social, cultural attitudes and behaviour must (uneasily) balance. Adding birth control, including abortion, into the mix really seems to raise some very atavistic fears in some men...particularly those who view women (and their childbearing capacity) as capital.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Why is it important for a father to know kids are his?



Same reason it is important for a child to know who their father is. Love.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> When you work in repairs you tend not to listen too much to the customer because they often get it wrong, you still have to carry out the diagnostic checks or you might miss something. The gender of the customer isn't important, if anything it's usually the men who think they're the expert and already know what the problem is.


I work in repairs and can confirm that this is absolute bollocks.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

campanula said:


> You don't have any, do you Athos...because I will guarantee you wouldn't be so blase about patrimony if you had...although I will also agree wholeheartedly that blood is not thicker than water and a parent is simply one who parents (my, dragging up all the old saws today, Camps)
> In my limited experience, the men who are actively engaged with child-rearing (including the huge acceptance and even sacrifice involved in raising dependents), tend to develop a less selfish and self-centred capacity. Often seen as a disadvantage (by owners of capital) for men to become so...'feminised'...but for women, well, it is always an improvement, sharing the emotional load of offspring. Obviously, this is purely anecdotal (but have seen a lot of relationships reach a crisis at precisely the point where a new life is added to the mix...and certainly, when my feminism was formed in the 70s, there was a LOT of time spend in consideration of female biology - how it impacted in the wider world...with childcare being a wedge issue (who did it...and why.)
> 
> The biological difference resulting in childbirth and the subsequent years of effort in raising the new generation) has always been a fulcrum upon which economic, social, cultural attitudes and behaviour must (uneasily) balance. Adding birth control, including abortion, into the mix really seems to raise some very atavistic fears in some men...particularly those who view women (and their childbearing capacity) as capital.



Yes, I do have kids.  Yet, I still think a big part of why I care whether or not I'm their biological father is social conditioning i.e. the superstructure to capitalism's base.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes, I’m pretty sure I’ve read somewhere about how Neolithic women were equally involved as the men, and sometimes more so. I didn’t have the confidence to say so earlier (because I’m a crap feminist really) so thanks for making me remember what I read somewhere sometime!



Neolithic is before the period I'd which I'm talking; it was more hand to mouth - I'm talking about the tools extant when capital began to be be accumulated.


----------



## polly (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Mothers didn't have it pass on; the first capital was in the form of tools, which, largely as a result of physical differences, were in the hands of men.



The first tools pre-date humans. Tools for hunting and gathering would have been central to everyone's survival. According to a leading archaeologist I know  everyone would have been making tools on a more or less daily basis. It's highly unlikely that women (female proto humans) did not make or have access to tools. I don't understand your post above (suspect hand of autocorrect) but when were you referring to?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 12, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> There have been some really interesting recent studies that show that the Yamnaya rode throughout Europe and elsewhere and seeding their DNA throughout the entire population, also committing genocide as they went. I wonder if that had some kind of trigger effect in the whole of humanity. This was about 5000 years ago. Not saying it was all peaches and cream before that, but it looks like it was a huge event that caused permanent change.
> 
> Here’s the New Scientist link (which is behind a paywall) but lots of other publications reported these findings too.
> 
> Story of most murderous people of all time revealed in ancient DNA



The other theory that I have read of is a climate change model.  About 5,000-7,000 years ago in the middle east, the people had cut so many trees that the climate changed from temperate and wet to dry and hot.  It completely changed the landscape and the cultures that inhabited the area.  These cultures adopted more vengeful models of deities to explain this change.  Worship of vengeful gods has certainly had an effect on the history of the last 5,000 years.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

polly said:


> The first tools pre-date humans. Tools for hunting and gathering would have been central to everyone's survival. According to a leading archaeologist I know  everyone would have been making tools on a more or less daily basis. It's highly unlikely that women (female proto humans) did not make or have access to tools. I don't understand your post above (suspect hand of autocorrect) but when were you referring to?



Sorry, yes, autocorrect; I've edited.

I'm not denying that women used tools; I'm suggesting that tools which began to represent capita (and could be handed down)  were principally in the hands of men.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> When you work in repairs you tend not to listen too much to the customer because they often get it wrong, you still have to carry out the diagnostic checks or you might miss something. The gender of the customer isn't important, if anything it's usually the men who think they're the expert and already know what the problem is.



I think you've misinterpreted my post and the point I was making.  It wasn't about the mechanic.  It was about my preprogrammed, simpering management of him that was the point.  It was so ingrained that I couldn't stop doing it, even though I knew it was a programmed response.  If I had daugthers I'd probably be teaching them the same shite with the rationalization that they'd need it to live in this world.  

Are you familiar with the phrase "keep sweet"?


----------



## polly (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Sorry, yes, autocorrect; I've edited.
> 
> I'm not denying that women used tools; I'm suggesting that tools which began to represent capita (and could be handed down)  were principally in the hands of men.



Ah ok - apols. Do you have anything I can read on that? I can't find anything online on this at all. I don't doubt you but I am interested.

eta my source says: "There probably was trade and ownership of tools but who the hell knows who was in charge of that?? When there is no available evidence people tend to automatically put their own modern constructs onto history. You can't just take modern concepts and place them onto societies that were totally different from ours, not just in terms of population densities and networks but also in terms of behaviours". 

She was quite ranty - I edited  Perhaps you are talking about later than her period though? (I don't know 100% when that is and can't ask at this late stage, but ends in -lithic)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Yes, I do have kids.  Yet, I still think a big part of why I care whether or not I'm their biological father is social conditioning i.e. the superstructure to capitalism's base.



Im struggling to follow you here. Are you saying that if it turned out that your children were not your own, the only reason it would bother you is because of capitalism?


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Same reason it is important for a child to know who their father is. Love.


But step fathers, adoptive fathers, mum’s best friend, single parent families with no ‘dad’ figure etc etc can be just as valuable and important. Love comes in many guises. I’m not sure why DNA is such an obsession. (For some)


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Athos said:


> Yes, I do have kids.  Yet, I still think a big part of why I care whether or not I'm their biological father is social conditioning i.e. the superstructure to capitalism's base.


I think it’s an interesting point you raise. It’s like the ‘family name’ thing too. My FIL nearly died when I suggested my child could have my surname rather than his dad’s....


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

It's a weird argument tbh. It suggests that men having a sense of emotional attachment to their own children is 'unnatural' and purely social conditioning.

You know what the other side of this is...women as naturally 'born mothers', _genetically_ carers and nurturers, inherently suited to x, y, z roles.

If I sniff the air hard enough I can smell the same logic wrt sex based expectations and gender roles that I am pretty sure created The Patriarchy in the first place.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> But step fathers, adoptive fathers, mum’s best friend, single parent families with no ‘dad’ figure etc etc can be just as valuable and important. Love comes in many guises. I’m not sure why DNA is such an obsession. (For some)



It's not about an obsession with DNA. I believe there is a natural instinct to love those who are more closely related biologically. Probably to do with pheromones or something. 

Of course, this doesn't mean an adoptive parent can't love their child, or that all biological parents are loving ones, but a general trend exists in nature for that to be the case.


----------



## Winot (Jun 12, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's not about an obsession with DNA. I believe there is a natural instinct to love those who are more closely related biologically. Probably to do with pheromones or something.



How would you test that?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

Winot said:


> How would you test that?



Don't know. It's really an evolutionary argument I suppose. It makes sense from the standpoint of evolution that something like this would be the case.


----------



## campanula (Jun 12, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Of course, this doesn't mean an adoptive parent can't love their child, or that all biological parents are loving ones, but a general trend exists in nature for that to be the case.





ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's not about an obsession with DNA. I believe there is a natural instinct to love those who are more closely related biologically. Probably to do with pheromones or something.



I would be very interested to see sources for that (speaking as coming from a LONG line of bastards...including generating several of my own)...I will fairly confidently state that things like love, attraction, caring and nurture  are not really just predicated on biological attachment ...but from the sheer bloody day in, day out, association - the ability to put someone or something else's needs before your own...and since we can see even interspecies adoptions, never mind cross human ones, this DNA dynastic priority is just another bit of useful mythmaking. Although we are wandering far OT here (apols)


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

campanula said:


> I would be very interested to see sources for that (speaking as coming from a LONG line of bastards...including generating several of my own)...I will fairly confidently state that things like love, attraction, caring and nurture  are not really just predicated on biological attachment ...but from the sheer bloody day in, day out, association - the ability to put someone or something else's needs before your own...and since we can see even interspecies adoptions, never mind cross human ones, this DNA dynastic priority is just another bit of useful mythmaking. Although we are wandering far OT here (apols)



Like I said, the general trend does not invalidate the exceptions.


----------



## campanula (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> I think it’s an interesting point you raise. It’s like the ‘family name’ thing too. My FIL nearly died when I suggested my child could have my surname rather than his dad’s....


I wonder how much of that mad dynasty stuff is based on much more than law (property, inheritance) rather than more nebulous things such as the family name?
confession - all of my children have different surnames (and fathers) but the names were mainly chosen for...(ahem) aesthetics. I don't care for my surname...but my daughter's father's was far worse...whereas both my boys had much nicer surnames than mine - and there was that little incident back in the 70s when I had a 'marriage of convenience 'meaning I can (and did) pull the odd Polish surname out of the bag...but hey - getting even further away.
stepping away now because I am really losing the thread.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It's a weird argument tbh. It suggests that men having a sense of emotional attachment to their own children is 'unnatural' and purely social conditioning.
> 
> You know what the other side of this is...women as naturally 'born mothers', _genetically_ carers and nurturers, inherently suited to x, y, z roles.
> 
> If I sniff the air hard enough I can smell the same logic wrt sex based expectations and gender roles that I am pretty sure created The Patriarchy in the first place.


I’m not suggesting attachment to your children is unnatural. Far from it. But it’s interesting how concepts of motherhood and fatherhood and love and parenting evolve and are partly socially constructed. 

The thing someone posted on the sofa this week is a case in point-An Alternative History of Mothering - BBC Sounds as it makes a case that mothering is constructed. Why couldn’t fatherhood be, too? And in a patrilineal society where a man passes money, land, his name, his ‘legacy’ to a child with his DNA that must be even more the case. 

I’m not a social scientist, sociologist or social historian mind.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I think you've misinterpreted my post and the point I was making.  It wasn't about the mechanic.  It was about my preprogrammed, simpering management of him that was the point.  It was so ingrained that I couldn't stop doing it, even though I knew it was a programmed response.  If I had daugthers I'd probably be teaching them the same shite with the rationalization that they'd need it to live in this world.
> 
> Are you familiar with the phrase "keep sweet"?



I see what you mean, but we all do that don't we? I don't see how this is an example of some kind of female conditioning. The previous examples where women are smoothing things over in order to keep violent and potentially violent men calm I get....but not telling a mechanic how to do his job? that's just being respectful.

You tell the guy you've got the code but he's the mechanic, he still has to confirm it, make sure there's nothing else wrong. when you start telling people how to do their own jobs....isn't that exactly what mansplaining is? or being condescending in common parlance.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

weepiper said:


> I work in repairs and can confirm that this is absolute bollocks.



I phrased it badly, of course i listen to the customer but when a customer comes in and tells you they know exactly whats wrong you tend to take it with a pinch of salt.

You still have to confirm the fault yourself rather than just go on their word and start swapping parts. There's nothing wrong with that, the fault they'vve found might be a symptom of something else. it's good practice check it out yourself.


----------



## dylanredefined (Jun 12, 2019)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> It's not about an obsession with DNA. I believe there is a natural instinct to love those who are more closely related biologically. Probably to do with pheromones or something.
> 
> Of course, this doesn't mean an adoptive parent can't love their child, or that all biological parents are loving ones, but a general trend exists in nature for that to be the case.


 There is a world of difference between raising someone else child by choice ,rather than raising someone else cos your partner cheated.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 12, 2019)

dylanredefined said:


> There is a world of difference between raising someone else child by choice ,rather than raising someone else cos your partner cheated.



No argument there


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> I’m not suggesting attachment to your children is unnatural. Far from it. But it’s interesting how concepts of motherhood and fatherhood and love and parenting evolve and are partly socially constructed.
> 
> The thing someone posted on the sofa this week is a case in point-An Alternative History of Mothering - BBC Sounds as it makes a case that mothering is constructed. Why couldn’t fatherhood be, too? And in a patrilineal society where a man passes money, land, his name, his ‘legacy’ to a child with his DNA that must be even more the case.
> 
> I’m not a social scientist, sociologist or social historian mind.



The comment/argument hasn't mentioned women though and my point is by simply stating that men's 'real' connection to their children is merely 'socially constructed' nicely sets women up as the opposite of what that BBC sounds thing is saying.

By default it leaves them _holding the baby_ and responsible by nature/design.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I see what you mean, but we all do that don't we? I don't see how this is an example of some kind of female conditioning. The previous examples where women are smoothing things over in order to keep violent and potentially violent men calm I get....but not telling a mechanic how to do his job? that's just being respectful.
> 
> You tell the guy you've got the code but he's the mechanic, he still has to confirm it, make sure there's nothing else wrong. when you start telling people how to do their own jobs....isn't that exactly what mansplaining is? or being condescending in common parlance.


<<sigh>>

It’s one example to illustrate a systematic issue with women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised, especially about stuff that is considered ‘male’, such a technical stuff. 

And how we smooth egos and try and explain rather like I am doing now rather than saying fuck off you bad faith motherfucker, pretending to not understand and make false equivalencies to protect your patriarchal playground.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The comment/argument hasn't mentioned women though and my point is by simply stating that men's 'real' connection to their children is merely 'socially constructed' nicely sets women up as the opposite of what that BBC sounds things is saying.


I don’t think it’s merely or only socially constructed. (And I don’t think talking about men necessarily sets women up as the opposite in a Mars/Venus way). I do wonder about an element of it though, (for both men and women, and it’s difficult to draw a precise line) given that we know how land and goods and inheritance has worked in the British culture since, what, the renaissance? (Precise dates of adoption of primogeniture unclear in my head, books on medieval property buried in a box, cba to dig them out). 

I just find the idea that there is this deep overwhelming biological bond that a father feels for his actual biological offspring that supersedes all else, this is where love is essentially found to be unhelpfully....simplistic, judgemental, non-nuanced? Not sure of the right word....


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> <<sigh>>
> 
> It’s one example to illustrate a systematic issue with women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised, especially about stuff that is considered ‘male’, such a technical stuff.
> 
> And how we smooth egos and try and explain rather like I am doing now rather than saying fuck off you bad faith motherfucker, pretending to not understand and make false equivalencies to protect your patriarchal playground.



How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.

The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.

You could just talk to me rather than assuming my intentions and getting sweary.

Patriarchal playground ffs


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> *I just find the idea that there is this deep overwhelming biological bond that a father feels for his actual biological offspring that supersedes all else*, this is where love is essentially found to be unhelpfully....simplistic, judgemental, non-nuanced? Not sure of the right word....



Has anyone argued that? I must have missed it.   ...and we'll have to agree to disagree on the other point because I do think theorising and defining a man's relationship to offspring as merely  'functional and constructed' is very much behind a lot of the elements of patriarchy that similarly position women as 'naturally' more nuturing and we all know what very damaging expectations and power dynamics come from that.

My own experience suggests to me that our sense of connectedness and emotional attachment feels like and has been both.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.
> 
> The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.
> 
> ...


You have basically said that women placating men if they think they are going to get punched is valid and everything else in this thread is the product of their imaginations because sometimes everyone is horrible.

That’s disingenuous bullshit- I don’t even really think you believe it. You are just belittling women’s shared, lived and expressed experience. Fuck off with that shit, then come back so you can fuck off again.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> I just find the idea that there is this deep overwhelming biological bond that a father feels for his actual biological offspring that supersedes all else, this is where love is essentially found to be unhelpfully....simplistic, judgemental, non-nuanced? Not sure of the right word....



I found out one of mine wasn't mine.....the worst day of my life, the betrayal, shame (toxic masculinity there I guess)....at no point back then or in the years since did I love my child any less.

Biology doesn't make a father, love makes a father. As a consequence I can't watch the bit where yondu dies in Guardians of the Galaxy without crying like a big baby.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Has anyone argued that? I must have missed it.   ...and we'll have to agree to disagree on the other point because I do think theorising and defining a man's relationship to offspring as merely  'functional and constructed' is very much behind a lot of the elements of patriarchy that similarly position women as 'naturally' more nuturing and we all know what very damaging expectations and power dynamics come from that.
> My own experience suggests to me that our sense of connectedness and emotional attachment feels like and has been both.


ItWillNeverWork has said a man must know his children because of love. 

Whereas love can come in lots of ways and guises and I think a genetic father may not be the sole or even an important part of that. Same as it happens for mother, grandparents, siblings etc etc


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.
> 
> The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.
> 
> ...



I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.

It's really frustrating and fucking boring.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> You have basically said that women placating men if they think they are going to get punched is valid and everything else in this thread is the product of their imaginations because sometimes everyone is horrible.
> 
> That’s disingenuous bullshit- I don’t even really think you believe it. You are just belittling women’s shared, lived and expressed experience. Fuck off with that shit, then come back so you can fuck off again.



I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?

I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.

I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.


I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I see what you mean, but we all do that don't we? I don't see how this is an example of some kind of female conditioning. The previous examples where women are smoothing things over in order to keep violent and potentially violent men calm I get....but not telling a mechanic how to do his job? that's just being respectful.
> 
> You tell the guy you've got the code but he's the mechanic, he still has to confirm it, make sure there's nothing else wrong. when you start telling people how to do their own jobs....isn't that exactly what mansplaining is? or being condescending in common parlance.



No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job.  I was giving him the information he needed to do his job.  To do his job he needed the history of the problem.  I communicated that just as a male customer might.  Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.
> 
> It's really frustrating and fucking boring.


But, but, he now says we are making it up. He’ll tell me I’m emotional in a minute.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job.  I was giving him the information he needed to do his job.  To do his job he needed the history of the problem.  I communicated that just as a male customer might.  Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.


He knows that. He’s pretending not to understand


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> He knows that. He’s pretending not to understand



I know, but my programming is to "keep sweet."  I can't help myself.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?
> 
> *I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.*
> 
> I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"



So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.



If you concede that 'patriarchy' exists and are honest about how that has and continues to affect both men and women I can't see how you would be making such dismissive, shallow arguments tbh.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It's a weird argument tbh. It suggests that men having a sense of emotional attachment to their own children is 'unnatural' and purely social conditioning.
> 
> You know what the other side of this is...women as naturally 'born mothers', _genetically_ carers and nurturers, inherently suited to x, y, z roles.
> 
> If I sniff the air hard enough I can smell the same logic wrt sex based expectations and gender roles that I am pretty sure created The Patriarchy in the first place.



No it doesn't. It suggests that the importance given to the biological rather than the social aspects of parenting is largely a product of the dominant mode of production.  Which is literally the polar opposite of suggesting motherhood (as a gender expectation) is purely a function of biology.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> No, I'm not telling the mechanic how to do his job.  I was giving him the information he needed to do his job.  To do his job he needed the history of the problem.  I communicated that just as a male customer might.  Once he figured out the problem for himself, he didn't need to spend 10 minutes telling me in excruciatingly patronizing detail things he already knew I was aware of.



You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.

It's irritating but I don't see where sexism comes into it.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I know, but my programming is to "keep sweet."  I can't help myself.



We're all subject to social norms, some more than others. I know plenty of women who'd have just said "Yes yes, whatever can you just give me the bill"


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> If you concede that 'patriarchy' exists and are honest about how that has and continues to affect both men and women I can't see how you would be making such dismissive, shallow arguments tbh.



It exists but I don't think patriarchy is an accurate description of it. We all partake and build the society around us. Men suffer quite a bit due to the patriarchy too so it can't really be accurate can it?


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?



No, as I said there are numerous legit examples of placation involving violence on this thread alone that men are unlikely to have to experience.

So they're not evenly spread at all, that doesn't mean that every other example of placation is due to sexism, aggression, coercion, whatever....


----------



## campanula (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> We all partake and build the society around us



But not in equal roles...with equal respect and equal access to power or even autonomy, eh? I am pretty sure there is a men under patriarchy thread which will indeed, (I imagine) deal with the stifling expectations on men as breadwinners etc etc...but right here, if you are really unable to see that women have been forced into a role which is no longer fit for purpose (ours, that is) I am not really sure what you are contributing to the thread apart from the usual negation of women's authentic experiences.
'The personal is the political' was always a part of 2nd wave feminist theory...which boils down to the little, everyday slights and slaps being a fair representation of the broader, wider world outside of the home and our individual quotidian experiences.


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> So your assertion is that despite the fact that historically women have been subjugated by cultural, social and political dynamics on account of their biological sex, (a process that we still encounter each and every day in many forms) the experiences of 'placating' each other are still spread evenly?


Yup. There's no power imbalance here.


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

campanula said:


> But not in equal roles...with equal respect and equal access to power or even autonomy, eh? I am pretty sure there is a men under patriarchy thread which will indeed, (I imagine) deal with the stifling expectations on men as breadwinners etc etc...but right here, if you are really unable to see that women have been forced into a role which is no longer fit for purpose (ours, that is) I am not really sure what you are contributing to the thread apart from the usual negation of women's authentic experiences.



Our individual influence and status vary wildly along more vectors than just gender. But no I'm not saying that women haven't been forced into crappy roles, just that mundane examples of condescension and placation aren't necessarily evidence of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> Our individual influence and status vary wildly along more vectors than just gender. But no I'm not saying that women haven't been forced into crappy roles, just that mundane examples of condescension and placation aren't necessarily evidence of it.


I was going to tell you to stop posting shit but it's strangely enjoyable watching you dig yourself a great big hole


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I was going to tell you to stop posting shit but it's strangely enjoyable watching you dig yourself a great big hole



Why am I in a hole?

because I think there are valid and invalid examples of the patriarchy?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> Why am I in a hole?
> 
> because I think there are valid and invalid examples of the patriarchy?


This would be the patriarchy you don't agree exists


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

Manter said:


> I don’t think it’s merely or only socially constructed. (And I don’t think talking about men necessarily sets women up as the opposite in a Mars/Venus way). I do wonder about an element of it though, (for both men and women, and it’s difficult to draw a precise line) given that we know how land and goods and inheritance has worked in the British culture since, what, the renaissance? (Precise dates of adoption of primogeniture unclear in my head, books on medieval property buried in a box, cba to dig them out).
> 
> I just find the idea that there is this deep overwhelming biological bond that a father feels for his actual biological offspring that supersedes all else, this is where love is essentially found to be unhelpfully....simplistic, judgemental, non-nuanced? Not sure of the right word....




The numbers have changed and may do again, but the point is that there are a number of men unknowingly raising children that are not their own. Not talking about men who knowingly take on another man’s kids, but men who are led to believe, and do believe, that the child they’re raising and loving and towards whom they feel genuine loyalty, is not in fact their offspring.

Paternity fraud - Wikipedia


----------



## no-no (Jun 12, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> This would be the patriarchy you don't agree exists



The patriarchy I believe deserve a more accurate name but I'll use the term out of convenience.....to placate perhaps


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> How can it be an example of something women do to placate men if men do exactly the same thing to placate women. Isn't it just people placating each other? In this example it wasn't even placation, it was just not telling someone with far more experience how to do their job.
> 
> The connection between this sort of everyday social lubrication and domestic violence is tenuous.
> 
> ...




Look at these posts (below) from page two of this thread.



Rebelda said:


> 'In my experience, albeit not on topic...'?
> 
> Honestly though, unless you're making a point relevant to feminism I suggest starting a thread in knobbing and sobbing about treading on eggshells in a relationship





SheilaNaGig said:


> How about this: if you have personal lived experience of what it feels like as a man to have to be cautious or even fearful in conversation with your female partner, use that lived experience and then add in the potential for violence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




[


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I see you haven't actually read the thread yet, you are not the first man on this thread to miss the point and argue this stuff.
> 
> It's really frustrating and fucking boring.




I know for a cold fact that some women are choosing not to get involved with these threads because we have to wade endlessly - and apparently repeatedly - through the defensive definition stage.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I didn't say it was a product of their imaginations at all, why are you making things up?
> 
> I totally believe that you think having to placate men during everyday exchanges is an example of women being belittled, reduced, disbelieved and patronised. I just think you're wrong. and the reason I think you're wrong is because men do that too. men placate men and women. Women placate men and women.We all do it all the time.
> 
> I don't see how you can arrive at your conclusion without ignoring the lived experiences of everyone on this thread that's said "but we all do that"




It’s not an example of women being belittled. It’s an example of the ways in which women are made to twist and bend to accommodate men, because of the patriarchy. And it could be argued that women behave that way (making men feel like they need to walk on eggshells and making them feel unsure about where they stand and all that nasty shit) because women leaned how fucking effective it is as a mode of control, and then just use the same weapon themselves. Because we have no power of our own that is honoured respected and heard by men! We have to borrow the weapons and tools used against us, because just being straightforward and honest gets us a big fat zero in terms of response.


----------



## Manter (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> No, as I said there are numerous legit examples of placation involving violence on this thread alone that men are unlikely to have to experience.
> 
> So they're not evenly spread at all, that doesn't mean that every other example of placation is due to sexism, aggression, coercion, whatever....


Men also suffer due to patriarchy. That doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. 
Violence is not the only injustice people face. And if you had bothered to read the thread you’d have seen someone explain how little things enable and beget big things, all leading to explosive violence. It’s not just normal human interaction uninfluenced by anything or violence, with nothing in between


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> I haven't read it cover to cover no. I've seen some legit examples involving creepy men or violent partners but I've also seen some examples that are just everyday experiences that any one might have.



Fucking read the thread. Please . All of this has been covered. You piling in here with your one man determination that the entire thread is wrong, and your lone voice is right is in itself a demonstration of the whole fucking problem!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> and still lacking an explanation as to why



What does the thread title say?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.
> 
> It's irritating but I don't see where sexism comes into it.




Of course he doesn’t remember the encounter. Because he barely noticed it at the time, because for him it’s entirely normal and not worthy of comment or remark or notice. Women notice this shit, we really do. We notice it and note it and sigh and roll our eyes and tell our women friends and go on to the next thing.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> We're all subject to social norms, some more than others. I know plenty of women who'd have just said "Yes yes, whatever can you just give me the bill"




And no man ever does that...

Oh Lady preserve me from this bullshit!


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> The patriarchy I believe deserve a more accurate name but I'll use the term out of convenience.....to placate perhaps




What would you call it then.


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 12, 2019)

no-no said:


> You said it was more about your response but now you're complaining about his behaviour. Chances are he barely remembers the conversation and he's just going through it in detail as he does with every customer. I've experienced this from both sides of the conversation we all have probably.



I'm sure he doesn't remember the exchange.  Its his everyday experience that he'll get his ass kissed just so a woman can get her car fixed without risk of incurring some sort of retaliation.  If you stray too outside the gender expectations, shit happens.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

polly said:


> Ah ok - apols. Do you have anything I can read on that? I can't find anything online on this at all. I don't doubt you but I am interested.
> 
> eta my source says: "There probably was trade and ownership of tools but who the hell knows who was in charge of that?? When there is no available evidence people tend to automatically put their own modern constructs onto history. You can't just take modern concepts and place them onto societies that were totally different from ours, not just in terms of population densities and networks but also in terms of behaviours".
> 
> She was quite ranty - I edited  Perhaps you are talking about later than her period though? (I don't know 100% when that is and can't ask at this late stage, but ends in -lithic)



The Origin of the Family, Private Property and the State - Wikipedia

Not without it's significant flaws, but an interesting start.


----------



## Athos (Jun 12, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The comment/argument hasn't mentioned women though and my point is by simply stating that men's 'real' connection to their children is merely 'socially constructed' nicely sets women up as the opposite of what that BBC sounds thing is saying.





Rutita1 said:


> ... I do think theorising and defining a man's relationship to offspring as merely  'functional and constructed' ...



Except nobody is saying that.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> What does the thread title say?



I have accepted examples of man whispering, just not all of them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I have accepted examples of man whispering, just not all of them.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> What would you call it then.



I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?




you should just have stopped after 'i have no idea'


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I have no idea but the term patriarchy doesn't seem right for a system where men and women both suffer due to the social expectations placed upon them does it?


_There's no such thing as class because rich people get called posh on Twitter_


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> _There's no such thing as class because rich people get called posh on Twitter_


Except I didn't say it doesn't exist, it's poorly named and some of the examples being given are things we all do.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I'm sure he doesn't remember the exchange.  Its his everyday experience that he'll get his ass kissed just so a woman can get her car fixed without risk of incurring some sort of retaliation.  If you stray too outside the gender expectations, shit happens.



You sound a bit bonkers here, he's a mechanic, no one is kissing his arse all day.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Except I didn't say it doesn't exist, it's poorly named and some of the examples being given are things we all do.


It's the same argument. 
It's the exact same argument when people argue "honky" is the same as "n****r". It's about where the weight is, who gets the shitty end. This is basic stuff.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

S☼I said:


> It's the same argument.
> It's the exact same argument when people argue "honky" is the same as "n****r". It's about where the weight is, who gets the shitty end. This is basic stuff.



no it really isn't...calling someone a nigger is most definitely racist.

Explaining how you fixed someones car isn't. What should the mechanic have done? not investigated further and just swapped the part suggested by the code? and if he forgot who he'd spoken to earlier in the day what then? should he not give customers a run down of events just in case one of them mistakes it for condescension?

Christ, just argue the topic instead of reaching for the race card, what a terrible analogy.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Not all examples of sexism are valid.

Now there's a statement I'm sure we can all agree on right?


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 13, 2019)

One of the ways sexism manifests is women not being believed about big and small things they report 

What would it be like to believe the female posters account of their experiences of exchanges at repair shops (as customers or mechanics)?  

Allow the possibility that they might be right to sit with you, even if you don't see it just yet ....and ask your self why your formed opinion must top their lived experience


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> One of the ways sexism manifests is women not being believed about big and small things they report
> 
> What would it be like to believe the female posters account of their experiences of exchanges at repair shops (as customers or mechanics)?
> 
> Allow the possibility that they might be right to sit with you, even if you don't see it just yet ....and ask your self why your formed opinion must top their lived experience



I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?

If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?
> 
> If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?



Of course nobody can say for certain what was in that mechanic's mind, but people's experiences (particularly women's experiences) of how so many men treat men and women differently lead them to the reasonable conclusion that his conduct was more likely the product of misogyny than anything else.  Nobody's trying to hang the bloke, so the balance of probabilities is a reasonable approach.  If every individual instance required proof beyond reasonable doubt of what what is someone's mind, none could be proved, and we'd effectively be saying none exist, which we know is ridiculous.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?
> 
> If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?


You're not going to get the evidence requested for a variety of reasons 

I'm not going to tell you what to do but I can share what I do when I don't fully believe something but others are certain it is so  ...I  believe myself and the other person.	Not equally but even allowing 1% of belief for the other persons account starts to allow dialogue in my mind..	I argue about in my head for a while adding in more evidence often from similar situations  until I know more about what might be valid.   

I know that reads a bit patronising.   It's not meant to


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> Of course nobody can say for certain what was in that mechanic's mind, but people's experiences (particularly women's experiences) of how so many men treat men and women differently lead them to the reasonable conclusion that his conduct was more likely the product of misogyny than anything else.  Nobody's trying to hang the bloke, so the balance of probabilities is a reasonable approach.  If every individual instance required proof beyond reasonable doubt of what what is someone's mind, none could be proved, and we'd effectively be saying none exist, which we know is ridiculous.



You're talking about stereotypes here, i'm not sure a conclusion based on stereotypes is reasonable esp when it's an everyday interaction being presented as a contributing factor in domestic violence and being put into the same category as domestic violence.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> You're not going to get the evidence requested for a variety of reasons
> 
> I'm not going to tell you what to do but I can share what I do when I don't fully believe something but others are certain it is so  ...I  believe myself and the other person.	Not equally but even allowing 1% of belief for the other persons account starts to allow dialogue in my mind..	I argue about in my head for a while adding in more evidence often from similar situations  until I know more about what might be valid.
> 
> I know that reads a bit patronising.   It's not meant to



That's fine, it didn't sound patronising at all, we're online, you don't know me, no problem and it's good advice anyhow.

That's why I'm asking for clarification really but I still don't see anything unique to the female experience here (i'm talking about the everyday interactions obvs, not the violence) perhaps women get it more often I'm not sure though. ime rude arseholes are equal opportunity arseholes.


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> You're talking about stereotypes here, i'm not sure a conclusion based on stereotypes is reasonable esp when it's an everyday interaction being presented as a contributing factor in domestic violence and being put into the same category as domestic violence.



Archetype not stereotype.  More harm flows from not recognising the wider issue.


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> That's fine, it didn't sound patronising at all, we're online, you don't know me, no problem and it's good advice anyhow.
> 
> That's why I'm asking for clarification really but I still don't see anything unique to the female experience here (i'm talking about the everyday interactions obvs, not the violence) perhaps women get it more often I'm not sure though. ime rude arseholes are equal opportunity arseholes.



Have you stopped to think why so many women do see it?


----------



## Manter (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I am willing to allow that possibility, that's why I'm asking for further clarification but so far no one has been able to tell me how they're able to define the mechanics motivations. Lets say he was being condescending rather than that he'd just forgotten who he'd spoken to. How do we know he's doing it because the customer is a woman?
> 
> If the claim was, this guy's a rude arsehole then sure that's believable but the claim is, this guy is rude because he's sexist and further it's a contributory factor of everything up to and including serious violence against women. That's a big claim that we shouldn't just believe off the bat surely?


My mum went to buy a car and she was asked if she’d like her husband to have a look before she committed. I told my (ex) other half the car was making a particular noise at x speed at y gear and therefore I thought it needed to go to the garage. He took it out for a drive to find out what is was doing and came in and said ‘it’s making a particular noise at x speed at y gear and I think we need to take it the garage’. I was going on a roadtrip with a colleague and the hire car place handed him the car keys without asking or even looking at me. My best mate was hearing an application for funding an the applicants kept looking at and addressing the bloke in with her- the grad trainee- rather than at her- the department head. A builder who came last week to quote for splitting a lighting ring kept trying to talk to my partner- who wouldn’t know which end of a screwdriver to hold- rather than me....

I could go on and on and on and on. So could most women. And I have even more examples of people talking to me not The Northerner about child rearing, food, family events, school runs etc.

And this doesn’t mean these are all shitty people. They are people living in a patriarchal society who have internalised some really deep seated assumptions about who has responsibility for and understanding of technology, finance, manual labour, caring, cleaning, nurturing and so on.

And half the time we don’t do much more than roll our eyes, gently correct or redirect, pass a message on... because this is constant and pervasive, and exhausting and we have to pick our battles, and be careful we aren’t aggressive or bitchy or confrontational or emotional as then it becomes *even more* difficult to navigate our daily lives.

So please spare me the ‘just doing his job’ schtick


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> Have you stopped to think why so many women do see it?



I'm not sure more women experience this than men. There are plenty of men on this thread saying they experience the same for example.


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> I'm not sure more women experience this than men. There are plenty of men on this thread saying they experience the same for example.



Have you stopped to think why women think it's the product if patriarchy?


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> Have you stopped to think why women think it's the product if patriarchy?



Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.


----------



## Santino (Jun 13, 2019)

Of course I listen to women, I just don't believe them.


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.



Do you think they're mistaken?  Or dishonest?  Why do you think that? Why are they like that?


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> You sound a bit bonkers here, he's a mechanic, no one is kissing his arse all day.



You aren't helping yourself out much here.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Of course I just don't buy their explanations when it comes to everyday rudeness being sexist.



You don't have to 'buy' them. They are not for sale. You do have to accept them though, because they are _true and rea_l. What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?


----------



## smmudge (Jun 13, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?



So he can act like a sexist dickhead and convince himself he's not being sexist?


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Santino said:


> Of course I listen to women, I just don't believe them.



Not all the time no, just like I treat men.

Welcome to equality


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You don't have to 'buy' them. They are not for sale. You do have to accept them though, because they are _true and rea_l. What is the pay off for you in minimising in this way?



Are they true and real though? That's the payoff, having an accurate picture of the world.

While sexism obv exists that doesn't mean every example of a man being rude to a woman is an example of it. I find it odd that some of you have this idea that it's wrong to question a woman's story. Being equal means no kid gloves and you have to justify what you're saying to other people without having to rely on this "just believe" philosophy.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> Do you think they're mistaken?  Or dishonest?  Why do you think that? Why are they like that?



They might be....women can be wrong and dishonest can't they? Do you always believe what a woman says because she's a woman?


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> You aren't helping yourself out much here.



It's best not to placate people isn't it?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Are they true and real though? That's the payoff, having an accurate picture of the world.
> 
> While sexism obv exists that doesn't mean every example of a man being rude to a woman is an example of it. I find it odd that some of you have this idea that it's wrong to question a woman's story. Being equal means no kid gloves and you have to justify what you're saying to other people without having to rely on this "just believe" philosophy.




I don't think anyone is saying 'just believe' though. You have been given countless examples, so have others on this thread. You have also been linked to other sources of evidence...it's all there if you cared to look and see. You just seem to be saiyng 'but, but, but...'

I also think that what women want is 'equity' which isn't the same as equality. Achieved or achieving equality can be as shallow and everyday as being charged the same for you cup of coffee as a bloke whilst still not being paid the same as them for doing the same job. That isn't 'fair', nor does it even up centuries of the same/similar everyday oppressions.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't think anyone is saying 'just believe' though. You have been given countless examples, so have others on this thread. You have also been linked to other sources of evidence...it's all there if you cared to look and see. You just seem to be saiyng 'but, but, but...'
> 
> I also think that what women want is 'equity' which isn't the same as equality. Achieved or achieving equality can be as shallow and everyday as being charged the same for you cup of coffee as a bloke whilst still not being paid the same as them for doing the same job.



There have been a few comments chastising me for not simply believing....

I've had lots of stories that men could give you equivalents for, other than the stories of actual abuse I haven't seen anything that couldn't be categorised as general arseyness.

Equity means being expected to justify your claims doesn't it? just like everyone else.

I think I'll bail out now, there doesn't seem to be anything more than anecdote to back up the idea. Actual abuse and the placation women have to do to avoid aggression? sure I can definitely see that.

The low level interactions though? Someone was a bit rude to you? You placated your boyfriend to avoid an argument over who cooks? no, I don't find it convincing at all and the connection you're trying to draw between them and serious abuse is weak to non existant


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> They might be....women can be wrong and dishonest can't they? Do you always believe what a woman says because she's a woman?



They can be. By what do you think it's them not you?


----------



## Manter (Jun 13, 2019)

I’ve eyerolled so hard I’ve strained something


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> They can be. By what do you think it's them not you?



Then I don't really understand why you have an issue with my position. I take each story/individual on their own merits, don't you?


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Manter said:


> I’ve eyerolled so hard I’ve strained something



God, Me too!


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Then I don't really understand why you have an issue with my position. I take each story/individual on their own merits, don't you?



Not only on their individual merits, no.  Because requiring proof in every individual case can have the cumulative effect of obscuring a wider social problem.

Imagine a 1,000,000 interactions, where each of them had a 49.999999% chance of being an example of patriarchy.

You'd say that each one, when considered in isolation, probably wasn't; you'd aggregate those to 1,000,000 incidents that probably weren't - a whole load of nothing.

Whereas, by looking at the whole, I'd see a probable half million incidents of misogyny (albeit I wouldn't be able to point to any one individually with any degree of certainty).

I see no issue with using anecdote and archetypes to unpack social issues; whereas I would require better proof if I was going to challenge or accuse someone directly.  What's happening in this thread is more akin to the former.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 13, 2019)

And this is why we don't talk about feminism on urban


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> Not only on their individual merits, no.  Because requiring proof in every individual case can have the cumulative effect of obscuring a wider social problem.
> 
> Imagine a 1,000,000 interactions, where each of them had a 49.999999% chance of being an example of patriarchy.
> 
> ...



Where are you getting the 49.99999% figure from? what's the actual figure? How could you ever know?

Any figure would be pretty unreliable. Self reported and dependent upon the women assuming the intentions of the men, it'd be a totally subjective figure.

Using anecdote and archetype to unpack social issues is a very broad brush and inaccurate way to look at it, it's a bit lazy tbh. Anyhow, if you're going to do that then what would be the problem if other people use their anecdotes and archetypes to present a different perspective by saying "that happens to me too". It's not even a denial that these things take place, it's just saying maybe the patriarchy is a flawed idea, maybe it's a bit more complicated than that. Maybe women are victims as well as oppressors in a thousand different ways, maybe men are too.

Anyone who looks for examples to justify victimhood is going to find them esp if they rely on anecdote. There's plenty of actual evidence to backup reports of sexism towards women, there's no need to include trivial interactions too.


----------



## Athos (Jun 13, 2019)

no-no said:


> Where are you getting the 49.99999% figure from? what's the actual figure? How could you ever know?
> 
> Any figure would be pretty unreliable. Self reported and dependent upon the women assuming the intentions of the men, it'd be a totally subjective figure.
> 
> ...



You're still missing the point.

Even if it's 10%, that's 100,000; as opposed to none proven!

Why are you assuming bad faith?  That women are looking to justify victimhood?

Clearly, women don't find these things trivial.

I think I'm done with this, though; I'm happy to agree to disagree - to accept that you disbelieve that we live in a patriarchy, and many women's accounts of it.

Not least of all because this was a thread for women to post their experiences, not men to argue that they're wrong/lying.


----------



## no-no (Jun 13, 2019)

Athos said:


> You're still missing the point.
> 
> Even if it's 10%, that's 100,000; as opposed to none proven!
> 
> ...



Loads of women find these things trivial.

Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.

Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true. Everyone one of us plays our part in shaping society, complain about shitty behaviour but don't pin it on men writ large.

It's ok to tell women that they're wrong, they're more than capable of standing up for themselves.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 14, 2019)

I've never been that good at placating men, smoothing their egos or what ever.  So I don't intend to start now so no-no do just fuck off.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 14, 2019)

no-no said:


> Sexism exists and it's shit but the idea that society is arranged around the whims of men in order to subjugate women simply isn't true.




...and this is why we can't have nice things. 

If you understand what The Patriarchy is and how it operates, has created implicit power dynamics, influenced culture, unconsciously associates, embeds itself, infiltrates, is internalised, replicates itself and manifests it beggars belief that you could make such a silly statement to be honest.


----------



## Poot (Jun 14, 2019)

no-no said:


> Loads of women find these things trivial.
> 
> Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.
> 
> ...



You haven't listened. You haven't read the thread. You neither understand what patriarchy is nor what feminism is. And yet still you're telling us what to think. Standard.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 14, 2019)

I feel like I am simply colluding in some level of cultural pathology by constantly arguing back or even responding to this level of disingenuous, lalala I can't hear you, pfft you think you have it bad, but what about YOU, stop hurting my ego, what about the men, that happens to me as well OKAY stuff which is nicely packaged in a box with the address that reads....

*Women, 
The Patriarchy Exists 
Of Course Street
Don'tPushItthoughVille
PO BOX SettleForWhatYouHave
001SUBMIT100*


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 14, 2019)

no-no said:


> Loads of women find these things trivial.
> 
> Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.
> 
> ...




This post makes me very angry. And extremely frustrated. This is the epitome of what we're up against in this struggle to be understood.

If even a third of men think like this then there's no fucking point. I suspect it's a great many more.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 14, 2019)

Some men don't want to listen to women. Like we have no right to express how we see the world if men don't agree. 

Not all men, not all women - of course.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 14, 2019)

In my everyday life, metaphorically speaking, I don't even bother to write 'Return to sender' anymore, I just bin this shit.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 14, 2019)

I'm sure it's been posted here before but this might be a good time to post it again 

LRB · Mary Beard · The Public Voice of Women


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 14, 2019)

no-no said:


> Loads of women find these things trivial.
> 
> Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.
> 
> ...


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Some men don't want to listen to women. Like we have no right to express how we see the world if men don't agree.
> 
> Not all men, not all women - of course.


 
It's not like that at all, someone disagrees with you and that becomes "like we have no right to express how we see the world".

That's a good illustration of what I was saying. Some normal everyday interactions are cast as examples of oppression.

You have every right to express yourself and I'm sure you exercise that right imminently when you tell me to fuck off or shut up.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This post makes me very angry. And extremely frustrated. This is the epitome of what we're up against in this struggle to be understood.
> 
> If even a third of men think like this then there's no fucking point. I suspect it's a great many more.


 
Hold on to your hat, 2 thirds of women think this way.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> Hold on to your hat, 2 thirds of women think this way.



You're coming across as a total ass btw


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Because every day it exists. What you call normal is part of the oppression.
> I'll give you an example.
> I work as the only woman on a middle management team of 6 people. Repeatedly I've given good advice abd made points and asked for certain things to be put in place.....ignored.
> Then it might be days or weeks or even months later and a male member of the group will mahe the EXACT same suggestions  and suddenly its a great idea and lets run with that.
> ...


 
God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.


----------



## Poot (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.


Yeah. That's it. Our elbows aren't sharp enough. That would have solved thousands of years of patriarchy. If only we'd asked you etc.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> God I hate it when that happens. When I'm overlooked at work i usually put it down to other people being more sharp elbowed than me but maybe it's because they're discriminating against me because of some aspect of my identity, I am mixed race so I guess it must be that. Couldn't possibly be any other reason.




It happens every woman I work with. And its men doing it. Not women.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> It happens every woman I work with. And its men doing it. Not women.


 
Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?

I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.


----------



## Poot (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?
> 
> I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.



You mentioned before that you fixed things. How many of your colleagues are women? Is your boss a woman?


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.



I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women dont walk all over other women in the workplace


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?
> 
> I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.


Let's get this straight. You are saying that something that is very widely talked about as an experience that many, many women have in the workplace is nonsense because you personally don't believe it to be true? Is that what you are saying?


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women don't walk all over other women in the workplace



Both genders do this, whether they're doing it because they're sexist or just because they want to take credit for other peoples ideas is unknown. 
It's happened to me numerous times working under female management. Get rid of the macs I said, repeatedly, they're a pain in the arse. Ignored....until a year later she brings up all my complaints about apple macs and why we should ditch them as if she'd come to this conclusion all on her own.

Was it because I was a man? Maybe it was because I'm mixed race? I doubt it, more likely just because i was a junior staff member and she wants to look like she's the one coming up with ideas since she's the team leader.

Look at this, 2 thirds of women again...

More than two-thirds of women feel ‘bullied’ by their female colleagues, study finds


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Let's get this straight. You are saying that something that is very widely talked about as an experience that many, many women have in the workplace is nonsense because you personally don't believe it to be true? Is that what you are saying?



No, that's not what I'm saying.

I believe it happens, I don't believe we know that the reason it happens is sexism, that's a wild and convenient assumption. I'm sure a fair bit of it might be due to sexism but it's not safe to just assume any male to female rudeness is down to that.

Could you give an example of when a man is rude to a woman that you wouldn't consider sexist? Some people are just rude, they're rude to men, women or anyone who they think they can get away with it on. We've all met people like that.


----------



## Poot (Jun 15, 2019)

I have felt bullied by a female line manager. God, she was awful. Really terrible. And it made life very difficult for a while. But that's entirely separate to the deeply-entrenched willy-waving corporate bullshit that's deeply embedded in my company culture at the moment, where I feel like I am repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall. It's cultural and will not change. That is the patriarchy.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Poot said:


> You mentioned before that you fixed things. How many of your colleagues are women? Is your boss a woman?



I've had numerous female bosses, they're no better or worse than male bosses on the whole in my experience.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> Give over, women don't step on each other in the workplace?
> 
> I don't know a single man who hasn't experienced this, often from women.



I've seen major issues in all women teams in my workplace over the years.  I can think of as many women considered 'bullies' as I can men (though claims of bullying always need to be analysed).  Also seen people happy to take credit for other people's work (most recent example male on male).  There's a crazy amount of generalising when it suits folk!  You know, maybe it's not gender; maybe it's the individual...


----------



## Poot (Jun 15, 2019)

That's it, I can't be bothered. I'm off. I'm fed up of repeating myself.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Poot said:


> I have felt bullied by a female line manager. God, she was awful. Really terrible. And it made life very difficult for a while. But that's entirely separate to the deeply-entrenched willy-waving corporate bullshit that's deeply embedded in my company culture at the moment, where I feel like I am repeatedly banging my head against a brick wall. It's cultural and will not change. That is the patriarchy.



Yeah I can believe that some workplaces are particulary bad in that regard, i've worked in places with a boys club culture too. Again, these guys are just arseholes, they treat other men who aren't in their wanky gang just as dismissively.

I've worked in offices with predominantly female management teams where similar cliques develop. It's probably more common with men because men still occupy most management positions.

It is cultural and I think it will change, it already is. The one thing that'd speed it up most imo would be to give men identical rights to parental benefits and leave. That alone would mean employers would be less able to predict which of their employees are likely to need paternal leave. Which would mean more women in the workplace if that's what couples up and down the land choose to do.

More women in the workplace means less of a lads culture, it is changing, we don't need to act like every instance of male rudeness is an extension of thousands of years of oppression, i find that just a bit over the top.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> No, that's not what I'm saying.
> 
> I believe it happens, I don't believe we know that the reason it happens is sexism, that's a wild and convenient assumption. I'm sure a fair bit of it might be due to sexism but it's not safe to just assume any male to female rudeness is down to that.
> 
> Could you give an example of when a man is rude to a woman that you wouldn't consider sexist? Some people are just rude, they're rude to men, women or anyone who they think they can get away with it on. We've all met people like that.


I can't give an example no but I can recognise when someone is just being rude whatever sex they are.

At least you can admit that "a fair bit of it might be due to sexism".

I think it can be very difficult sometimes for men to see it because you do not experience the daily drip drip drip of it that women do experience.

Hands up - I think I've been very lucky in both my social life and my working life that I have experienced relatively little sexism but I still know it exists because I have still experienced it and other women tell their stories.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I think women managers who bully are aping the patriarchy. I see it where I work. Only one female bully. She is acting the same as the 3 male bullies who happen to be in middle management. She thinks this will get her promoted. It may well do so.



Every case of bullying is different.  I guess some managers bully purely because they're dicks, but others bully because they feel under pressure themselves, can't handle it, and take it out on staff lower than them, either in anger or by micro-managing.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> You say management did this to you?  Maybe she needed more than one opinion and waited til there were enough complaints to be categorical ?
> 
> There is a different dynamic when you're actually part of managenent and you find that your equals are doing it to you....repeatedly.
> 
> I think women managers who bully are aping the patriarchy. I see it where I work. Only one female bully. She is acting the same as the 3 male bullies who happen to be in middle management. She thinks this will get her promoted. It may well do so.


 
Yeah, maybe she wanted more confirmation, maybe she'd been thinking of doing it for years, could have been any number of things other than her dismissing me because of my identity. I wasn't that bothered, just happy the macs were finally going in the bin.

I've never worked on a team where some of my grasping colleagues haven't behaved in similar ways.

Your last statement is incredibly sexist, women are perfectly capable of being sharp elbowed and grasping without having to learn from men.


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Every case of bullying is different.  I guess some managers bully purely because they're dicks, but others bully because they feel under pressure themselves, can't handle it, and take it out on staff lower than them, either in anger or by micro-managing.


 
A lot of the bullying managers I've had are def feeling the pressure, they're usually good examples of the peter principle. They're barely more qualified for the job than those under them and they have a hard time justifying their position which manifests as cuntyness.


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> A lot of the bullying managers I've had are def feeling the pressure, they're usually good examples of the peter principle. They're barely more qualified for the job than those under them and they have a hard time justifying their position which manifests as cuntyness.



I also think some people perceived as bullies are perfectionists, so expect the same in others.  I've only been aware of one male being weird with a female in my general area and it was only ever with this one female, although he's not necessarily a great manager in other ways.  Myself and my colleagues at the same level spend a lot of time analysing our superiors and their motives...


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 15, 2019)

When I was 18, my friends mum and I shared a long car journey to go visit her son (my friend) at university.   We got on well and chatted all the while.   I don't know how we got on to the subject but essentially she told me that if I married a man I'd have to man whisper him.   She didn't use that phrase , of course,  she said something like you can get what you want by working around it but not directly confronting a man.   I was like but but but I don't want to do that....and she was like you'll learn...

And I have sort of learned but I also haven't....maybe part of the reason why idudnt marry a man


----------



## Winot (Jun 15, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.



Unfortunately the thread seems to have become a soapbox for the pub bore.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 15, 2019)

Winot said:


> Unfortunately the thread seems to have become a soapbox for the pub bore.


Don't let it be so


----------



## Winot (Jun 15, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Don't let it be so



I favour the ignore function.


----------



## Manter (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Because every day it exists. What you call normal is part of the oppression.
> I'll give you an example.
> I work as the only woman on a middle management team of 6 people. Repeatedly I've given good advice abd made points and asked for certain things to be put in place.....ignored.
> Then it might be days or weeks or even months later and a male member of the group will mahe the EXACT same suggestions  and suddenly its a great idea and lets run with that.
> ...


Oh yes. Did you see the smack the pony sketch- ‘excellent suggestion, maybe one of the men would like to make it?’ That’s my working life some weeks


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 15, 2019)

I've just got another seat in the pub


----------



## Johnny Vodka (Jun 15, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.



Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits.  I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with.  There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation.  This would be expressed in huffy behaviour and trying to make others feel guilty.  (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 15, 2019)

Manter said:


> Oh yes. Did you see the smack the pony sketch- ‘excellent suggestion, maybe one of the men would like to make it?’ That’s my working life some weeks


I'm going to look that up


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits.  I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with.  There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation.  This would be expressed in trying to make others feel guilty.  (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)


As several people have said, this has already been discussed earlier in the thread.


----------



## Manter (Jun 15, 2019)

Johnny Vodka said:


> Fair enough.. and I'll duck out of this thread.. but I do see a huge amount of generalising when it comes to male and female behaviour and personality traits.  I would say I've known both men and women who I'd tread on eggshells when dealing with.  There might not (generally) be the same threat of violence from a woman, but a woman who can't take certain words/opinions/won't be argued with can cause immense grief/divisions in a family situation.  This would be expressed in trying to make others feel guilty.  (Yeah, I'm thinking of a particular person, but don't really want to go into the details.)


Imagine you have two bell curves along an axis that represent, say, arrogance. Or entitlement. Or emotional labour. They overlap, and there are outliers in both curves that share characteristics, but one curve tends to show more of a characteristic than the other.
That’s why when we are talking about something as a characteristic of men, we are not talking about you, Jonny vodka, and saying that you won’t find any women anywhere that are, say, more arrogant or entitled or whatever than you. We are saying men as a class due to centuries of patriarchy and socialisation and so on and so forth have a higher likelihood to be more arrogant and entitled and (this is the important bit) we know this because we see it play out in our lives day after day after day.

Doesn’t mean all men are arrogant. Doesn't mean women aren’t. Doesn’t mean we are judging you as a person right now in that moment. Means there is a pattern that affects our lives and we are naming it and challenging it, so we can try and change it


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 15, 2019)

Might be useful Johnny Vodka 
https://www.urban75.net/forums/thre...m-and-sexism-and-patriarchy-and-so-on.365028/

DO read the OP, though. It's not somewhere to go and stink up with whataboutery


----------



## no-no (Jun 15, 2019)

Manter said:


> Imagine you have two bell curves along an axis that represent, say, arrogance. Or entitlement. Or emotional labour. They overlap, and there are outliers in both curves that share characteristics, but one curve tends to show more of a characteristic than the other.
> That’s why when we are talking about something as a characteristic of men, we are not talking about you, Jonny vodka, and saying that you won’t find any women anywhere that are, say, more arrogant or entitled or whatever than you. We are saying men as a class due to centuries of patriarchy and socialisation and so on and so forth have a higher likelihood to be more arrogant and entitled and (this is the important bit) we know this because we see it play out in our lives day after day after day.
> 
> Doesn’t mean all men are arrogant. Doesn't mean women aren’t. Doesn’t mean we are judging you as a person right now in that moment. Means there is a pattern that affects our lives and we are naming it and challenging it, so we can try and change it



That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.

I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much


----------



## Manter (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.
> 
> I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much


But that’s what all the women on this thread are saying. Patriarchy screws women, it screws men, I want better for me and the people I love, including a five year old boy whose future shouldn’t have to include violence and emotional repression and increased suicide risk just because he has a penis.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> That's fair enough, my only objection would be that the system has as many detrimental affects on men as it does on women. Men held positions of power for a long time but women didn't have zero input, this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are, there are a range of other bell curves where women have a higher likelihood of having a negative trait. patriarchy is a terrible term.
> 
> I really am going to bugger off now, i've been talking way too much


I'd be interested in your view of how patriarchy harms men no-no 
Thread here. https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> ...this thread is about one way women can influence men after all. Women are as complicit in it as men are...


And that is absolutely infuriating! This baked in notion that as women we are constantly told that to get what we want we have to pussyfoot around and cajole men rather than just saying "this is what I want". 

I also absolutely despise that thing about the man in a family being just another kid for the woman to look after. In fact the biggest kid of all because he's so useless at domestic things and ooh isn't it just adorable really. He can't help it because he is a man and you, woman, you have to look after everything. It demeans us all.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

And it is 100% deliberate


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 15, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> The thing is though...this thread isn't actually about whether both women and men can be arseholes. It's specifically about the female experience of being conditioned to be submissive to and placate men.



It feels like no-no  is trying to remind me of my conditioning. It feels like he's undermining my thoughts feelings and perceptions. It feels like maybe I need to retreat and think twice about what I'm saying. It feels like I'm being told that it's my fault that things are so hard, or my fault I don't understand it from the male perspective. It feels like it's pointless trying to explain. It feels like I shouldn't even bother trying because I'm up against something implacable, something entrenched.  It feels like the patriarchy.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It feels like no-no  is trying to remind me of my conditioning. It feels like he's undermining my thoughts feelings and perceptions. It feels like maybe I need to retreat and think twice about what I'm saying. It feels like I'm being told that it's my fault that things are so hard, or my fault I don't understand it from the male perspective. It feels like it's pointless trying to explain. It feels like I shouldn't even bother trying because I'm up against something implacable, something entrenched.  It feels like the patriarchy.


I have been reading all these threads rather than posting as I am far less well read than many people here and am not all that good at writing thoughtful arguments but to me this last few pages has felt like whatever any of us have to say, the come back is "yeah but women do that too" which I think is what you are saying in a far more articulate way.

It is like banging your head against a brick wall.

It feels like "shut up - you are just being hysterical. You imagine things that are not there. All of you."


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jun 15, 2019)

Can we have a musical interlude?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 15, 2019)

I'm struck by how many woman (including me) have been saying "Right! Fuck this, I'm out" over recent pages, here and on other threads. We've engaged in good faith, answered the same questions and responded to the same points over and over again. We've started new threads in response to men saying "If only it could be approached like this instead".  We've been told we're hurting their feelings, being too this that or the other. We've reiterated that we love men, that we recognise that women also contribute to the problem, that men are also badly off...

We keep bumping up against this notion that at base, at root, in the end, it's women who are the problem. Either we're inventing it, or we're perpetuating it.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

Being told we're inventing it is the most infuriating thing! Fuck's sake how can anyone say that with a straight face?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 15, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Being told we're inventing it is the most infuriating thing! Fuck's sake how can anyone say that with a straight face?



Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that.  Men are honest and true and straightforward.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that.  Men are honest and true and straightforward.


Oh yeah sorry - I forgot


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Because they really truly believe that. *They're* not inventing or exaggerating. Men don't do that.  Men are honest and true and straightforward.



If a man feels or thinks a thing, his conditioning tells him it's true. If a woman says or thinks a thing she needs reassurance from others that it's true.


ETA You never see men posting "Am I being unreasonable?" threads. Only women ask AIBU?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 15, 2019)

There is a deep, deep pathology to this. I've learnt over the years that to be _*well*_ I simply can't engage with and surrender to it. I have to hold a boundary and limit the amount of man-whispering and gender subservience I do.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 15, 2019)

S☼I said:


> I'd be interested in your view of how patriarchy harms men no-no
> Thread here. https://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/male-experiences-of-patriarchy.364927/


Just so you know, no-no - I strongly recommend contributing to this. It's been created specifically for men to share their opinions and experiences on what they understand of the patriarchy.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> If a man feels or thinks a thing, his conditioning tells him it's true. If a woman says it thinks a thing she needs reassurance from others that it's true.
> 
> 
> ETA You never see men posting "Am I being unreasonable?" threads. Only women ask AIBU?



The problem I've found is that i was reared to believe in myself. It was only when I started working that I realised that mens opinions were more valuable. Mine, no matter how good,  were not appreciated or wanted. 
It has sucked the joy out of a lot of my work but I do make a strong point of telling the teenage girls that I work with that they need to nourish their dreams and expand their life view...that they can be so much..
Sadly many have very narrow views of what their lives will be.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 15, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> There is a deep, deep pathology to this. I've learnt over the years that to be _*well*_ I simply can't engage with and surrender to it. I have to hold a boundary and limit the amount of man-whispering and gender subservience I do.



I agree. It is deeply pathological. And yet it is we and not them who are obliged to do the work of staying well in its presence.

And I find that the weary exhaustion of holding the line also makes me unwell. So I have to slack off and rest sometimes. And then in that moment I'm vulnerable to the wolves.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I agree. It is deeply pathological. And yet it is we and not them who are obliged to do the work of staying well in its presence.
> 
> And I find that the weary exhaustion of holding the line also makes me unwell. So I have to slack off and rest sometimes. And then in that moment I'm vulnerable to the wolves.




This ..^^
exactly.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jun 15, 2019)

Lupa said:


> I think you're bullshitting there. And no...in general women dont walk all over other women in the workplace


I in no way support no-no 's view but ime in Housing and ESPECIALLY in midwifery and nursing....women really really do


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 15, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> I in no way support no-no 's view but ime in Housing and ESPECIALLY in midwifery and nursing....women really really do



That is awful to read and I'm so sad you have had to deal with that.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 15, 2019)

On the subject of women upholding the patriarchy, my ex-mother-in-law is having surgery in a few weeks time and needs a bit of aftercare at home. She is expecting her daughter-in-law to be providing this rather than her son despite them both working, having 2 kids of their own and her having arthritis. It hadn't even occurred to her that her son ought to be doing this for her.


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2019)

no-no said:


> Loads of women find these things trivial.
> 
> Of course people are seeking to justify victimhood. the entire point of patriarchy is that women are victims of oppression.
> 
> ...


I'm giving you three days off this thread because you appear to be pissing everyone off for no good reason.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 15, 2019)

Here is an example of a woman angering a man by merely posting a picture of herself smiling online.



These are the kind of guys we get through life safely by man-whispering.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 16, 2019)

Wow


----------



## Santino (Jun 17, 2019)

Winot said:


> One solution
> 
> Women are happier without children or a spouse, says happiness expert





Poot said:


> I loved the part of the survey that concluded that in fact married people are happier than single people _but only if their spouse was in the room when they were asked.
> 
> _





> Women should be wary of marriage — because while married women say they’re happy, they’re lying. According to behavioral scientist Paul Dolan, promoting his recently released book _Happy Every After_, they’ll be much happier if they steer clear of marriage and children entirely.
> 
> “Married people are happier than other population subgroups, but only when their spouse is in the room when they’re asked how happy they are. When the spouse is not present: f***ing miserable,” Dolan said, citing the American Time Use Survey, a national survey available from the Bureau of Labor Statistics and used for academic research on how Americans live their lives.
> 
> The problem? That finding is the result of a grievous misunderstanding on Dolan’s part of how the American Time Use Survey works. The people conducting the survey didn’t ask married people how happy they were, shoo their spouses out of the room, and then ask again. Dolan had misinterpreted one of the categories in the survey, “spouse absent,” which refers to married people whose partner is no longer living in their household, as meaning the spouse stepped out of the room.


A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.


----------



## Poot (Jun 17, 2019)

Santino said:


> A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.


Ah, the old confusion over the word absent. Makes me wonder whether these writers ought to organise their own bloody surveys. Or think about the meaning of words. 

I'm still getting over penguins not falling over backwards when a helicopter passes. I don't need this shit.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 17, 2019)

Ugh well yesterday... Woman in forum that I admin asks for help in ''location x'' because she's alone, there are street drinkers outside her window and she is feeling vulnerable. When  folk line up telling her she's overreacting she explains why she's intimidated by them.  Says she's a rape and abuse victim of someone who was drunk. Man then corrects her by pointing out there are two ''location x's'' and which one does she mean, then gets arsey when she points out that of course she means ''location x'' in London because its a London based group. Man gets really aggressive and points out that he, 'would have come and helped her (by throwing punches at them it seems), but he's not going to because she was too attention seeking by correcting him ''. She tells him to stop it, he won't stop.  I then comment as admin, 'you obviously can't tell you're being a dick. So I'm telling you, you're being a dick'. And I close the thread because apparently the street drinkers have gone and enough bullshit already.  Not satisfied at centering his tantrum *and* shitting all over her cry for help he then makes several whiney posts filling the whole page,  complaining that we are attention seekers before I ban him.  Fucksake.  She had a lucky escape, had he come to help her you just know the situation would've escalated into a ruck. The punchline: There is only one 'location x'. There isn't one anywhere else in the UK. I looked it up.   But yeah, this is what I have to deal with. If I swear I get the, 'language young lady,' from some of our older members.  I mean, wtf, do they expect me to post a GIF of myself curtsying before every post? Yes I think some do. Fuck that.


----------



## polly (Jun 17, 2019)

weepiper said:


> Here is an example of a woman angering a man by merely posting a picture of herself smiling online.
> 
> 
> 
> These are the kind of guys we get through life safely by man-whispering.




Ohh god urgh  And your story too pinkmonkey - so familiar.

I follow an fb page called Bye Felipe, which is about exposing the creepy and aggressive bullshit that women get from strange men in social media private inboxes or on dating apps, particularly when rejected. I wouldn't say it's life affirming, but it's an education, if anyone wants to check it out.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 18, 2019)

I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women. 

I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.
> 
> I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.



We had to set up a secret womens group because of the same crap.


----------



## chilango (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.
> 
> I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.



Yeah.

My wife will hike alone, but only routes where she feels safe.

I'm happy hiking most anywhere and will wildcamp alone.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

What kind of harrassment?


----------



## trashpony (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> What kind of harrassment?


Everything from sending them messages telling the women what they’d like to ‘do’ to them to telling them they recognised where they were camping from the photos they’d posted  

I’m now in a different women only group and it’s brilliant


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> Everything from sending them messages telling the women what they’d like to ‘do’ to them to telling them they recognised where they were camping from the photos they’d posted
> 
> I’m now in a different women only group and it’s brilliant


Christ.
What is wrong with the men who think this sort of thing is OK?


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Christ.
> What is wrong with the men who think this sort of thing is OK?



Arrogance and entitlement.  Fuckers.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Arrogance and entitlement.  Fuckers.


But what is the goal of sending a woman an unsolicited message telling her want to do to her? Do they think that the woman will go "fuck yeah let's do it I'm so hot for you too!!" or is it just intimidation? Is it the exercise of power or do they think they are going to get a shag by doing that?


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> But what is the goal of sending a woman an unsolicited message telling her want to do to her? Do they think that the woman will go "fuck yeah let's do it I'm so hot for you too!!" or is it just intimidation? Is it the exercise of power or do they think they are going to get a shag by doing that?



It would seem to be misogyny in its purist form. They must simply hate women


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

Winot said:


> It would seem to be misogyny in its purist form. They must simply hate women


So it is just intimidation? So sad.


----------



## Winot (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> So it is just intimidation? So sad.



God knows. I find it very hard to process. I suspect though that they don’t particularly care about the outcome - that it’s mainly a hate-filled reaction to a woman daring to have a good time.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 18, 2019)

Winot said:


> God knows. I find it very hard to process. I suspect though that they don’t particularly care about the outcome - that it’s mainly a hate-filled reaction to a woman daring to have a good time.


That’s all I can think it is. It’s getting a kick out of intimidating women who dare to be independent and brave. 

A lot of abusive men apparently target ‘strong’ women because there’s more of thrill in destroying them than women who are more vulnerable


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

The thing is though it's not just strong women, it's every woman. The method and language and flavour and approach may very but it's every woman for sure.



This leaves me utterly mystified. When a man behaves in a way that suggests he is pursuing the woman out of some kind of desire*, even when he must know it's never ever going to happen; and in fact the more determined he appears to be, the more unlikely it becomes. Why?

*Desire to have hold harm...

Walking in the street and the "Hey baby, wanna fuck? Where are you going, want to come home with me, can I go home with you". Do you really think this is ever going to get a result? Really?

Standing in a bar/club/gig and the "So what are you doing afterwards? Wanna sit on my face? Do you have a boyfriend, where is he? Can I buy you a drink? Why not? Why not? Why not? Why not?"

Mooching about on the internet " You fit/hot/seksi where do you live can I come over I'm coming over..."


etc



Why?  Why? I'm baffled. You KNOW this approach doesn't work so why do you insist? Why?


Or is it like spam emails where they hit on every single woman and eventually some poor sap ends up getting sucker punched into some kind of engagement.


----------



## Santino (Jun 18, 2019)

I think it's about entitlement and validation. Even if a man doesn't think his approach will work, he wants his feelings to be noticed and validated. His desire is in itself worthy of being known.

Something like that.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 18, 2019)

I don’t think they think they’re going to get laid. They just hate women. 

It would be interesting to hear from men that do this. I wonder if any of them will admit to doing it? Statistically, there must be a couple of blokes on here who have catcalled women at the very least


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

Santino said:


> I think it's about entitlement and validation. Even if a man doesn't think his approach will work, he wants his feelings to be noticed and validated. His desire is in itself worthy of being known.
> 
> Something like that.




Even if it's from a woman who does want anything to do with him? How does that validate him?

I'm still baffled.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I don’t think they think they’re going to get laid. They just hate women.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear from men that do this. I wonder if any of them will admit to doing it? Statistically, there must be a couple of blokes on here who have catcalled women at the very least




So why do they present it as if they "love" and want her?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I don’t think they think they’re going to get laid. They just hate women.
> 
> It would be interesting to hear from men that do this. I wonder if any of them will admit to doing it? Statistically, there must be a couple of blokes on here who have catcalled women at the very least




I was wondering that too. Do they do it and not think it's what we're talking about here? Do they assume their approach is different, that we're not really talking about them and their way of doing things? Or do we really not have any Urban men who behave in this way? If we do, I doubt they're reading this thread.


----------



## Santino (Jun 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Even if it's from a woman who does want anything to do with him? How does that validate him?
> 
> I'm still baffled.


Just the expression of it, and having some kind of reaction. Having a feeling or an idea and NOT doing something about it would be unacceptable.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> So why do they present it as if they "love" and want her?


I think it's somehow "extra points" if you can convince the stupid little woman that you actually feel real feelings about her.

I also think its about having been told constantly that woman will only do it with you if they are in love. That women don't engage in sex for fun. Which is also a pile of crap.

Plus the notion of "faint heart never won fair lady" and you just have to keep on and on at on at her until she finally sees your true worth and says yes. Because how could she not? Right lads?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Plus the notion of "faint heart never won fair lady" and you just have to keep on and on at on at her until she finally sees your true worth and says yes. Because how could she not? Right lads?


should be another saying along the lines of persistent boor never won fair lady either


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

Santino said:


> Just the expression of it, and having some kind of reaction. Having a feeling or an idea and NOT doing something about it would be unacceptable.




So seeing a woman passing by and feeling unseen and unheard by her is more painful than saying something and getting knocked back or belittled?

And is this something the patriarchy trains men to need?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 18, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I think it's somehow "extra points" if you can convince the stupid little woman that you actually feel real feelings about her.
> 
> I also think its about having been told constantly that woman will only do it with you if they are in love. That women don't engage in sex for fun. Which is also a pile of crap.
> 
> Plus the notion of "faint heart never won fair lady" and you just have to keep on and on at on at her until she finally sees your true worth and says yes. Because how could she not? Right lads?




I wonder if they know they despise women? Do they think they like women? It must be dead messy inside the head of a man who behaves in this way "I hate them but I want to feel wanted by them which makes me hate them and so I have to pretend I love them, to them and also to myself".

Is it that?


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> So seeing a woman passing by and feeling unseen and unheard by her is more painful than saying something and getting knocked back or belittled?
> 
> And is this something the patriarchy trains men to need?



They think it's a numbers game, keeping on with the same shitty tactic until it works. Now and again it does, so they keep doing it. 

Many men are just oblivious to the world and lacking in the emotional intelligence to realise that they're being dicks. I don't know how many are being deliberately malevolent, but that must be a thing too.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I wonder if they know they despise women? Do they think they like women? It must be dead messy inside the head of a man who behaves in this way "I hate them but I want to feel wanted by them which makes me hate them and so I have to pretend I love them, to them and also to myself".
> 
> Is it that?


I don't know. I am not sure they actually know what women are and think of women as completely "other" and not really complete, rounded human beings. I'm trying to think about this with reference to the guy I was with in NZ. He had some pretty base views about women. A fact which I only came to fully appreciate when I was already in too deep. I may or may not have a better answer later!


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 18, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> The thing is though it's not just strong women, it's every woman. The method and language and flavour and approach may very but it's every woman for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh God.  And if you answer politely they think you want them.  And if you ignore them you get called a frigid bitch, or worse.


----------



## polly (Jun 18, 2019)

Sorry not to contribute intelligently but this is an excellent video of a woman responding to catcalls in New York.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Jun 18, 2019)

trashpony said:


> That’s all I can think it is. It’s getting a kick out of intimidating women who dare to be independent and brave.
> 
> A lot of abusive men apparently target ‘strong’ women because there’s more of thrill in destroying them than women who are more vulnerable


I never considered that but it makes a whole lot of sense.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jun 18, 2019)

Santino said:


> A new book says married women are miserable. Don’t believe it.


Yes this was pretty much debunked on More or Less on R4 the other day. They concluded that it wasn't really possible to prove either way.

The older I get, the more marginalised I feel as a single person.


----------



## Manter (Jun 18, 2019)

polly said:


> Sorry not to contribute intelligently but this is an excellent video of a woman responding to catcalls in New York.



I love that. It made me laugh and squirm


----------



## Manter (Jun 18, 2019)

ElizabethofYork said:


> Oh God.  And if you answer politely they think you want them.  And if you ignore them you get called a frigid bitch, or worse.


I noticed it changes how I respond to people in public. A bloke smiled at me in the street the other day and I absent mindedly smiled back (because I was thinking about getting him in time to pick up J and I’d just come back from Yorkshire and I just wan’t in London-mode). He then followed me and kept touching my arm and trying to get me to take my headphones off. I eventually had to snarl at him to make him go away.....


.... and I kicked myself for forgetting never to engage with men in public when I am alone. Rather than blame him for having that weird entitlement to women’s time and attention thing going on.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 18, 2019)

Manter said:


> I love that. It made me laugh and squirm


I love it too. I saw Jon Ronson complaining that she was filming them without their consent and that it was really underhand of her


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I love it too. I saw Jon Ronson complaining that she was filming them without their consent and that it was really underhand of her


That’s weirdly unreflective of him. He’s normally more thoughtful


----------



## scifisam (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> I noticed it changes how I respond to people in public. A bloke smiled at me in the street the other day and I absent mindedly smiled back (because I was thinking about getting him in time to pick up J and I’d just come back from Yorkshire and I just wan’t in London-mode). He then followed me and kept touching my arm and trying to get me to take my headphones off. I eventually had to snarl at him to make him go away.....
> 
> 
> .... and I kicked myself for forgetting never to engage with men in public when I am alone. Rather than blame him for having that weird entitlement to women’s time and attention thing going on.



I once had an interesting conversation with my daughter (and one of her friends) about how to deal with this sort of thing. The upright stride, the careful blank expression with a slight smile, jog if you have the energy because it gives people less time to harass you, try to sit near another woman on public transport, keep your eyes away from people's faces so you don't make accidental eye contact, all the things I think most of us just do automatically.

J and her friend were at the time very conventionally pretty girls and the amount of hassle they got was _immense_. I took them out a lot. Sometimes met them after school, sometimes we'd meet at the tube, sometimes we were all out together and I went to the loo, whatever. There were lots of times they were out in public apparently without me and I got to see how people acted towards them.

It was striking how much sexual attention they got. I think it was similar when I was their age but we brushed it off, like you do, and that's more difficult to do with your child. Numerous times I'd come to meet them and see men trying to chat them up, them both being very obviously not into it (J's friend liked boys already, but on her own terms, and her body language was all clenched in, not responding at all positively to these sweaty adult men, not welcoming their attention at all), or I'd be slightly behind them on the road and men would catcall them, and men's eyes would go where they shouldn't. If you pay attention to where people look, women tend to look at faces, and most men do too. But there's a very large subset of men who default to the chest.

This was in year 7. They were 11. A couple of years later there was an evening where the girls in that friendship group actually talked to the female parents about this shit, like how to say no to men in a social setting, ways to be safe on public transport, that sort of thing, not just with me but with two of the other Mums. It was actually kinda fun.

We taught them man-whispering because it was better than teaching them about the morning after pill and AIDS tests or never letting them have any freedom. 

Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 19, 2019)

Liked in recognition of the truth, Sam, not that it happened to your child.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Absolutely scifisam ’that is not where the defence starts’

Very personal info coming up; I joke about why, when I was late teens/early 20s I covered myself up in long shapeless clothes and what was I thinking- did I think I was fat? I wish I was fat like that now- but actually I did it deliberately because I was tall and blonde and busty and I got *so* much unwanted and even dangerous attention I was just trying to disappear. At one point I had my timotei-style hair cropped off- not because I liked the look or anything, but because I was so sick of what people assume about women with swingy, shiny, blonde hair and big tits, even if they had covered every inch of skin in grungy layers.

I look back and feel really sorry for myself, that I wasn’t confident enough to face it down, and didn’t relax and enjoy my own body; and furious that the world was such that I didn’t feel able to. 

It happens less now I’m older and fatter, obviously, but there are still so many assumptions that come with big tits and blonde. And you’re right about where people look: as I’ve got older, most men at least start talking to my face, but a quick flick of the eyes to my chest during the conversation is so common I barely notice it.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention. 

And viewers often collude in it. I had a boss who wrote me love poetry (my boyfriend described it as a cross between a Bon Jovi lyric and a mid year review) and was clearly gagging to sleep with me. Colleagues would ask if I was seeing him (and infer I had slept my way to a promotion) when I was 35 years younger, in a relationship with someone more my own age etc- why on earth would I have been seeing him?!


----------



## trashpony (Jun 19, 2019)

I have a permanently curved spine from hunching over trying to hide my big breasts when I was young.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I have a permanently curved spine from hunching over trying to hide my big breasts when I was young.


My mum sent me to 5 years of ballet classes to make sure I stood up straight when it was obvious I was going to be tall. So despite boobs and embarrassment I am bolt upright due to years of being tapped in the small of the back


----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.



I spent 18 months in Italy and quickly learned that the women there maintain an utter face of stone towards men they don't know. The catcalling and male nuisance there is much more intense than it is here, so I guess they just can't risk even a micro smile, but I learned a lot from them. No politeness, no smiling, no mercy  However, on reflection, while the misogyny there is off the scale, on the street at least the men seem to take the rejection quite well and just move on to the next victim. 



Manter said:


> And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention.



There is a lot of reinforcement, I think, of the idea that a man's physical unattractiveness and old age are not barriers to their being able to sleep with physically beautiful women. It's a woman's job to be pretty and an accessory to her man, and it's the man's job to provide materially etc. And you see soo many examples of women who are far more physically attractive than their men (I know it's shallow but I often balk when I meet female friends' partners), I suppose why wouldn't they try it on? 

One thing I noticed when I was younger and was always baffled by was that the days when I felt really shit about myself - if I had a big spot or dirty hair or hated what I was wearing - were when I got the most male attention. Did anyone else notice this? Is it because walking tall and looking strong is off putting?


----------



## neonwilderness (Jun 19, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.
> 
> I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.


I'm in the same group (or a different one with the same problem). There was an admin post about it earlier in the week and I think some people were still trying to argue the point in the comments  



chilango said:


> I'm happy hiking most anywhere and will wildcamp alone.


Same. It's sad to think that anyone would have any concerns about doing this


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> I spent 18 months in Italy and quickly learned that the women there maintain an utter face of stone towards men they don't know. The catcalling and male nuisance there is much more intense than it is here, so I guess they just can't risk even a micro smile, but I learned a lot from them. No politeness, no smiling, no mercy  However, on reflection, while the misogyny there is off the scale, on the street at least the men seem to take the rejection quite well and just move on to the next victim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I got most comments and lunges and so on when I first got engaged. Shiny new rock, loved up glow, ‘owned’ by another man- apparently irresistible


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> One thing I noticed when I was younger and was always baffled by was that the days when I felt really shit about myself - if I had a big spot or dirty hair or hated what I was wearing - were when I got the most male attention. Did anyone else notice this? Is it because walking tall and looking strong is off putting?



Yes, I've noticed this.   I've been dressed in paint spattered clothing, paint in my hair, and literally had men from the neighborhood pull out lawn chairs to watch.  Being covered in dirt and leaves seem to be an extra turn on.  When I was mowing the lawn I had a guy stop, stare, and stick his hands down his pants to pleasure himself.  That was some seriously creepy shit.


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 19, 2019)




----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> Yes, I've noticed this.   I've been dressed in paint spattered clothing, paint in my hair, and literally had men from the neighborhood pull out lawn chairs to watch.  Being covered in dirt and leaves seem to be an extra turn on.  When I was mowing the lawn I had a guy stop, stare, and stick his hands down his pants to pleasure himself.  That was some seriously creepy shit.



Fucking hell  How did you deal with that??


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> Fucking hell  How did you deal with that??



I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away.  I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer.  My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior.  I don't see them as improving the situation.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 19, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away.  I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer.  My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior.  I don't see them as improving the situation.


could have got your biggest secateurs or shears out and strided purposefully in his direction making *snip*snip* movements.


----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> I turned off the mower and went inside until he went away.  I couldn't see calling the cops, even though that's the standard answer.  My previous experience with the cops is that they'll ask what you did to encourage the behavior.  I don't see them as improving the situation.



Oh gosh that's just... So depressing. Sorry that happened to you. And probably a few others 



friendofdorothy said:


> could have got your biggest secateurs or shears out and strided purposefully in his direction making *snip*snip* movements.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 19, 2019)

scifisam said:


> I once had an interesting conversation with my daughter (and one of her friends) about how to deal with this sort of thing. The upright stride, the careful blank expression with a slight smile, jog if you have the energy because it gives people less time to harass you, try to sit near another woman on public transport, keep your eyes away from people's faces so you don't make accidental eye contact, all the things I think most of us just do automatically.
> 
> J and her friend were at the time very conventionally pretty girls and the amount of hassle they got was _immense_. I took them out a lot. Sometimes met them after school, sometimes we'd meet at the tube, sometimes we were all out together and I went to the loo, whatever. There were lots of times they were out in public apparently without me and I got to see how people acted towards them.
> 
> ...


 It is such a shame we have to teach young women to cope with inappropriate male behaviour, but I'm glad you are doing that. 



scifisam said:


> Self-defence classes focus on holding keys in your hand and stuff like that, and that is helpful. But it's not where the defence starts.


 Never been to self defence classes so I can't recall where I learned that, but I've done the holding the keys thing automatically for decades - bet a lot of women do that.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 19, 2019)

I know when men have started wanking on public transport and I've moved away saying loudly 'there's a wanker here' the man has done the whole looking innocent 'she's mad' thing so everyone looks at me like I'm the problem.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> And while I’m on it- the delusion of men. There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?! - but so often a man will repeatedly come on to and harass a women with no ‘what would she see in me?’ thought process. It’s a sense of entitlement to women and their bodies and attention.
> 
> And viewers often collude in it. I had a boss who wrote me love poetry (my boyfriend described it as a cross between a Bon Jovi lyric and a mid year review) and was clearly gagging to sleep with me. Colleagues would ask if I was seeing him (and infer I had slept my way to a promotion) when I was 35 years younger, in a relationship with someone more my own age etc- why on earth would I have been seeing him?!


Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> Oh gosh that's just... So depressing. Sorry that happened to you.



TBH, as I've reached middle age, I'm no longer shocked by that kind of behavior. When I was a teenager, grown men used to pull over to side of the road and try to coax you into their car.  The first time that happened I was shocked enough to call the cops.  That's about the time I figured out that calling the cops is a waste of time.


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> Absolutely scifisam ’that is not where the defence starts’
> 
> Very personal info coming up; I joke about why, when I was late teens/early 20s I covered myself up in long shapeless clothes and what was I thinking- did I think I was fat? I wish I was fat like that now- but actually I did it deliberately because I was tall and blonde and busty and I got *so* much unwanted and even dangerous attention I was just trying to disappear. At one point I had my timotei-style hair cropped off- not because I liked the look or anything, but because I was so sick of what people assume about women with swingy, shiny, blonde hair and big tits, even if they had covered every inch of skin in grungy layers.
> 
> ...


Totally get this. I am also over-blessed in the chest and have been since I was 13. I clearly remember shouting at my Dad to fuck off because I was walking to a friend's house and he was about the tenth person to beep his horn. I didn't know it was him  So as soon as I realised I could dye my hair dark and wear lots of black velvet and big boots I was happy. (Still am!)


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away


No. Read what I actually said rather than trolling, eh?


----------



## Santino (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away


Fuck off


----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

Yuwipi Woman said:


> TBH, as I've reached middle age, I'm no longer shocked by that kind of behavior. When I was a teenager, grown men used to pull over to side of the road and try to coax you into their car.  The first time that happened I was shocked enough to call the cops.  That's about the time I figured out that calling the cops is a waste of time.



I am entirely unsurprised that the police are complete shit in the US, just as they are here. I'm more shocked by the man wanking at you. Don't know why, when so many women here and elsewhere have so many similar stories. Still have the power to shock me though 



Saul Goodman said:


> Are you saying it's OK if a bloke approaches you, so long as he's good looking (in your eyes), but the ugly ones should stay away



Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.


I reported a promoted post on Twitter for some click bait site that had a cartoon making that "joke" and amazingly they actually banned the account! Unfortunately I think twitter only makes these good decisions by accident.


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 19, 2019)

I was talking to my therapist about some of this stuff.  

When I lost tonnes of weight, I hated it.  I felt vulnerable and anonymous.  Being fat allows lots of men to relate to me in a non sexualised way, so they can actually interact with me beyond all that.  When I was slim, nobody talked to me in the same sort of environments where I’d have been a social magnet before.  However, as well as being left at arms length, I was also being stared at, leered at, followed to the loos...

And when I found myself forty something and single, I started to wish away my middle age, wanted to leap straight to eccentric old bird.  I stopped showing cleavage and started dressing like a five year old.  Because it allows men to treat me as a person, and not some tragic “cougar” figure.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> No. Read what I actually said rather than trolling, eh?


That's actually what you actually said


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> Incels love to roll this one out. That's the company your comment is in.


I'm actually a handsome bastard who has no problem in that department, but thanks for confirming my suspicions.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> That's actually what you actually said


No you illiterate cunt, I said ‘but so often a man will *repeatedly come on to and harass* a women’

If you don’t know the difference between approach and repeatedly come on and harass you should be locked up, you rapey motherfucker


----------



## Yuwipi Woman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> I am entirely unsurprised that the police are complete shit in the US, just as they are here. I'm more shocked by the man wanking at you. Don't know why, when so many women here and elsewhere have so many similar stories. Still have the power to shock me though



Probably the most shocking thing is that I live on one of the busiest streets in the city (and near a children's zoo).  I suspect part of the allure is the disapproval he gets while doing it.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> No you illiterate cunt, I said ‘but so often a man will *repeatedly come on to and harass* a women’
> 
> If you don’t know the difference between approach and repeatedly come on and harass you should be locked up, you rapey motherfucker


You said
"And while I’m on it- *the delusion of men*. *There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all*. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?!"
That's what you said, and all the abuse in the world won't change that. But well done accusing me of being a rapist.
Anyway, fuck it. It's obvious what these threads are about.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> You said
> "And while I’m on it- *the delusion of men*. *There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all*. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?!"
> That's what you said, and all the abuse in the world won't change that. But well done accusing me of being a rapist.


You really are a nasty little sex pest, aren’t you? 

I don't know if this makes you feel big or clever, but let me explain for men in the thread who don’t have whatever grotesque issue you do. 

Any man can approach any woman, at a time that is respectful and appropriate and see if she is interested in them. It’s worth doing a quick sense check before you do. Is it remotely likely? Has she ever shown any sign of being interested? Is she doing something else, Is this approach guaranteed not to scare, upset, or discomfort her? Am I abusing a position of authority? 

If you reckon your approach passes all those tests, you can approach. She gets to say no. Without explanation or caveat. 

Then you fuck off. 

Repeatedly coming on to and harassing a woman is fucking gross.

The fact men do it is monumentally fucking gross and any man who plays games with that because it makes him feel big and clever is the sort of cunt who needs to come with a health warning. Preferably tattooed across his forehead.


----------



## Sue (Jun 19, 2019)

What are these threads about, Saul Goodman? And what are your thoughts on all these stories? Are you surprised, shocked, unshocked, what? 

I'm genuinely interested as a lot of men seem to have literally no idea that this kind of stuff happens and is actually pretty common.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> What are these threads about, Saul Goodman? And what are your thoughts on all these stories? Are you surprised, shocked, unshocked, what?
> 
> I'm genuinely interested as a lot of men seem to have literally no idea that this kind of stuff happens and is actually pretty common.


I asked a simple question and got abused for it. It's exactly what I've come to expect from these threads. Lots of nastiness.


----------



## Sue (Jun 19, 2019)

And what are your views on the stories up thread, Saul Goodman? Interested to hear your thoughts.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Sue said:


> And what are your views on the stories up thread, Saul Goodman? Interested to hear your thoughts.


I absolutely agree that there are plenty of men who are complete cunts. I meet them every day. There are also plenty of women who are complete cunts. Manter being a perfect example.


----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Unfortunately I think twitter only makes these good decisions by accident.



 Still, well done!



Saul Goodman said:


> I'm actually a handsome bastard who has no problem in that department, but thanks for confirming my suspicions.



What suspicions? I was very careful not to accuse or insult you, but you should know (assuming you don't already, which is giving you the benefit of the doubt) that this is a really common trope among incels, that women are only repelled by them because they're ugly. The sad thing is that their looks are the least of their worries, so that may well be something else you have in common. 



Yuwipi Woman said:


> Probably the most shocking thing is that I live on one of the busiest streets in the city (and near a children's zoo).  I suspect part of the allure is the disapproval he gets while doing it.



Ugh probably. Never sure what to do in this situation - laughing is dangerous, being appalled is what they want, police dgaf...


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> I absolutely agree that there are plenty of men who are complete cunts. I meet them every day. There are also plenty of women who are complete cunts. Manter being a perfect example.


So you just came here to troll then. And you haven't read the thread at all.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Poot said:


> So you just came here to troll then. And you haven't read the thread at all.


Incorrect.


----------



## campanula (Jun 19, 2019)

Yeah, because *disagreeing on the internet* (as opposed to being stalked, harassed, groped, sleazed over,) is absolutely evidence that someone is a complete cunt. So precious.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

polly said:


> What suspicions? I was very careful not to accuse or insult you, but you should know (assuming you don't already, which is giving you the benefit of the doubt) that this is a really common trope among incels, that women are only repelled by them because they're ugly. The sad thing is that their looks are the least of their worries, so that may well be something else you have in common.


The suspicion that these threads are full of toxicity. I guess the title should have been a big enough clue.
It's nice to be accused of being an incel and a rapist for asking such a simple question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> I absolutely agree that there are plenty of men who are complete cunts. I meet them every day. There are also plenty of women who are complete cunts. Manter being a perfect example.


This will end well


----------



## trashpony (Jun 19, 2019)

The threads are about women’s lived experiences of interacting with men. They’re not pleasant reading because for most of us, our experience of men can be pretty unpleasant. Most women have been sexually harassed by men. Most of us have been sexually assaulted. Most of us have experienced aggression when telling men we’re not interested. 

What exactly is your issue? Is it that we’re talking about it?


----------



## polly (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> The suspicion that these threads are full of toxicity. I guess the title should have been a big enough clue.
> It's nice to be accused of being an incel and a rapist for asking such a simple question.



Didn't


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

trashpony said:


> The threads are about women’s lived experiences of interacting with men. They’re not pleasant reading because for most of us, our experience of men can be pretty unpleasant. Most women have been sexually harassed by men. Most of us have been sexually assaulted. Most of us have experienced aggression when telling men we’re not interested.
> 
> What exactly is your issue? Is it that we’re talking about it?


My issue is that 'men' are being dragged through the mud. It's cunts that are the problem, not 'men', and there are as many women fall under the 'cunt' category as there are men.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> I asked a simple question and got abused for it. It's exactly what I've come to expect from these threads. Lots of nastiness.


Well fuck off then. We won’t miss you


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> My issue is that 'men' are being dragged through the mud. It's cunts that are the problem, not 'men', and there are as many women fall under the 'cunt' category as there are men.


So after the pages and pages of discussing the patriarchy, this is all you've got?


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> Incorrect.


Completely patently true. And while you’ve shown yourself to be illiterate as well as a deeply inadequate human being, you may want to google parts of speech and think about the difference between rapist and rapey. Though that shows a level of reflection that you are clearly incapable of.

I never had you down for the sort of man who went all MRA on threads like this. I was wrong. Men like you are the problem.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

He


Pickman's model said:


> This will end well


 doesn’t want it to end well. Whining MRA MO. They’re being nasty to me! They are all bitches! Women won’t sleep with me because feminism! I’m not a sex pest because I think I’m hot. 

It’s gross. Disruptive, negative, unconstructive: exactly the sort of shit women wade through day in, day out. And we're Supposed to man whisper it; pretend there's a valid point, maybe we were strident, or a bit too feisty, or some other way of pandering


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> Completely patently true. And while you’ve shown yourself to be illiterate as well as a deeply inadequate human being, you may want to google parts of speech and think about the difference between rapist and rapey. Though that shows a level of reflection that you are clearly incapable of.
> 
> I never had you down for the sort of man who went all MRA on threads like this. I was wrong. Men like you are the problem.


Women like you are the reason men don't post on these threads.


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2019)

Dunno if this was the best way to do it, but the idea of a 'she's out of my league filter' is probably something that should be challenged tbh. It stuck out a bit at me too. Like, men shouldn't sleaze on women in the street for a thousand reasons that are better than 'shes too hot for me.'


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> Women like you are the reason men don't post on these threads.


No, men like you are the reason. I was thinking of posting something myself about the nature of body shaming in masculine roles but you've muffed it for everyone.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2019)

Manter said:


> He
> 
> doesn’t want it to end well. Whining MRA MO. They’re being nasty to me! They are all bitches! Women won’t sleep with me because feminism! I’m not a sex pest because I think I’m hot.
> 
> It’s gross. Disruptive, negative, unconstructive: exactly the sort of shit women wade through day in, day out. And we're Supposed to man whisper it; pretend there's a valid point, maybe we were strident, or a bit too feisty, or some other way of pandering


I don't think it will end well, I never do when I say that. Imo it'll end in a thread ban or a temp ban or possibly even a permaban if Saul Goodman doesn't walk away. I've enjoyed his posts on other threads but what's coming across here does him no favours and shows a side I like others here wasn't aware of.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think it will end well, I never do when I say that. Imo it'll end in a thread ban or a temp ban or possibly even a permaban if Saul Goodman doesn't walk away. I've enjoyed his posts on other threads but what's coming across here does him no favours and shows a side I like others here wasn't aware of.


Interesting how many men are outed by overt discussion of feminism


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> Dunno if this was the best way to do it, but the idea of a 'she's out of my league filter' is probably something that should be challenged tbh. It stuck out a bit at me too. Like, men shouldn't sleaze on women in the street for a thousand reasons that are better than 'shes too hot for me.'


And I’m more than happy to have a conversation with you about it, as I suspect you’d have something intelligent to contribute.


----------



## Manter (Jun 19, 2019)

FridgeMagnet said:


> No, men like you are the reason. I was thinking of posting something myself about the nature of body shaming in masculine roles but you've muffed it for everyone.


Ignore him. Let’s have a reasonable conversation as if that creature never happened


----------



## trabuquera (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> My issue is that 'men' are being dragged through the mud. It's cunts that are the problem, not 'men', and t*here are as many women fall under the 'cunt' category as there are men*.



For posterity. 
Seriously, Saul Goodman ? _Seriously? _Because women have human failings too, you believe sexism simply does not exist?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 19, 2019)

Pickman's model He's been suspected of it by me and other women before this. Maybe we have a radar or spidey senses for this kind if stuff.





The out of their league thing: I noticed it too not because it's not true or valid about a specific man but because it's a kind of code phrase we use amongst ourselves. Saying it here made me go "uh-oh..." because it was very likely to trigger exactly this situation.

A proportion of those men who sleaze on women in the street really are beneath contempt. They're the kind of man who gets shunned everywhere because they're nasty selfish thoughtless rude arrogant arse-holes. Their bullshit behaviour is part of every other bullshit they demonstrate. Sleazy creepy behaviour is a part of all their behaviour. I know this because when I was younger naive and kinder I'd give them the benefit of the doubt and talk to them. They're arseholes. It's not about looks it's about demeanour and attitude. And we can tell. And they know, of course they do, because men shun them too.

Those men are punching above their weight when they approach us in the street and ask us to go home with them, and they're out of their league when they try to join in with the lads in the pub too.

Women use a lot of shorthand when we discuss this stuff, of course we do because it's so familiar and we have this knowledge in common with each other.

Those losers who hassle us are only some of the men who harass us. We are harassed by men at every level, by winners and by losers. One of the things that needs to be understood here is that  *even the losers* feel they have the right - and apparently the obligation - to invade our personal space and lay hands on us.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 19, 2019)

It's not about looks.


----------



## campanula (Jun 19, 2019)

killer b said:


> Dunno if this was the best way to do it, but the idea of a 'she's out of my league filter' is probably something that should be challenged tbh. It stuck out a bit at me too. Like, men shouldn't sleaze on women in the street for a thousand reasons that are better than 'shes too hot for me.'





SheilaNaGig said:


> It's not about looks.



I think it is (on some level)...and the expectations for women to be attractive as well as competent, especially in a public role, is still somewhat baked-in. This does tend to reinforce opinions that women should be primarily seen as decorative, but essentially lightweight appendages...whereas men are  rarely given the heave-ho because their waistline has gone south and wrinkles are appearing. Women are simply too old - while men  are praised for having gravitas and experience...and this imbalance is reflected  and reinforced as just another unfairness (along with equal pay).

My daughter showed me her dating site...and we were a tad amazed at the number of male posts which emphasised stomachs, biceps, 6-packs and underpant bulges...so I am not at all sure how general commodification of the body under capitalism is affecting men...


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 19, 2019)

Yes.

But the thing about  "out of their league " isn't about looks. It's mostly about other stuff.

But the looks thing does need addressing too, separately.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jun 19, 2019)

I've often found when I've tried to talk to men about this stuff that the concept of unwanted sexual attention just doesn't compute. The idea that someone would approach you in the street for sex excites them.

They don't get the sense of threat. 

They don't get the fact that mostly the kind of men who approach you do not remotely resemble anyone you might wish to get naked with. It's not even about attractiveness, it's just like wtf hell no.


----------



## scifisam (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> You said
> "And while I’m on it- *the delusion of men*. *There appears to be no ‘she’s out of my league’ filter, at all*. On one level charming- maybe they really think it’s their sparkly personalities that matter? Maybe they think they have sparkly personalities?!"
> That's what you said, and all the abuse in the world won't change that. But well done accusing me of being a rapist.
> Anyway, fuck it. It's obvious what these threads are about.



Yeah, easy to change meaning by leaving out half a post, isn't it?

When it comes to men being interested in you, obviously most women prefer men they consider attractive. Most men also prefer women they're attracted to. The sea is also made of water, while we're stating the obvious. There's nothing wrong with, um, being attracted to people you consider attractive.  BUT that wasn't what Manter was talking about. She was specifically talking about harassment, which you cut out of her post. Harassment isn't acceptable from men of any level of attractiveness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 19, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> I've often found when I've tried to talk to men about this stuff that the concept of unwanted sexual attention just doesn't compute. The idea that someone would approach you in the street for sex excites them.
> 
> They don't get the sense of threat.
> 
> They don't get the fact that mostly the kind of men who approach you do not remotely resemble anyone you might wish to get naked with. It's not even about attractiveness, it's just like wtf hell no.


I have been propositioned thrice on the street, once by schoolgirls when I was 16 and twice by prostitutes. I found none of these encounters threatening, or that exciting, but rather bizarre and tawdry. However, I have seen women propositioned on the street and it's seemed to me a much less amicable affair, as has been described on this thread. The nearest I can put it into a male equivalent would be if other men started on you for no reason, doing the dance from what are you looking at to *smack*. The sort of pacific things you'd do to end the encounter without violence. Yeh it's not a perfect analogy, but the unwanted interference and potential difficulty in extricating yourself seem to me comparable


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 19, 2019)

campanula said:


> I think it is (on some level)...and the expectations for women to be attractive as well as competent, especially in a public role, is still somewhat baked-in. This does tend to reinforce opinions that women should be primarily seen as decorative, but essentially lightweight appendages...whereas men are  rarely given the heave-ho because their waistline has gone south and wrinkles are appearing. Women are simply too old - while men  are praised for having gravitas and experience...and this imbalance is reflected  and reinforced as just another unfairness (along with equal pay).
> 
> My daughter showed me her dating site...and we were a tad amazed at the number of male posts which emphasised stomachs, biceps, 6-packs and underpant bulges...so I am not at all sure how general commodification of the body under capitalism is affecting men...



The "perfect appearance" is sonething that has shocked me amongst young teens and kids. 
Girls of 13 up arriving at school having spent hours doing their hair and makeup in order to look like someone on the cover of a magazine. 

Boys are being effected too. But the pressure on them is to have 6 packs and be thin and fit. 

Its extremely sad.


----------



## Miss-Shelf (Jun 19, 2019)

Out of their league 

I take this to mean a man approaching me when we visibly have nothing in common and all the signs are that we would not get on.	Like my presentation as a female is all that is needed for him to be emboldened to approach.	It reduces me to a basic version of myself.   My probable female genitals.	It bypasses anything about my thoughts,   interests, style, beliefs 

Rather than a competitive league where I think I'm better looking or other such value judgements


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 19, 2019)

I was just reading here, with interest, anger, shame and various other feelings on behalf of all of us who may well have indulged in behaviour that inspires these kinds of fear and defensiveness. I will go back to reading quietly, too, but on this subtopic I have something to add.

There were a few years around the millennium when because (I believe) of my shape/face, and the places I was spending time, and the people I was with and what I was doing, I was getting regularly propositioned by both men and women. I didn't like it, at all, and it had nothing to do with looks (maybe to do with drunken ugliness, a whole other kind of ugliness). It was to do with invading my space, unwanted touching, and the entitlement of someone who just doesn't understand why you would say 'no'.

Most men I've told this to laugh and call me mental. Which leaves me speechless. I no longer share this experience because the response I get bothers me too much. But here it seems relevant because I believe I do understand a little of what women seem to have to put up with. Shall I tag Saul Goodman ? Yeah why not.

Anyway that's all. Me reading again now.

EtA, forget the edit.

EtAA, no. Let's have it.

I hope this post doesn't mean points get taken more seriously by anyone reading because _oh look a man agrees so it must be true_. That would be shit, really shit. But shamefully, it does work that way with some men  I do agree with what's being expressed by women in this thread, because what's being expressed is true. My own experience bears it out, is all I'm saying.

Fucking hell anyway.


----------



## Poot (Jun 19, 2019)

I think I'm just going to say it. Usually I notice the 'out of their league' thing when it's a younger woman going about her business and an older man comes on to her or comments on her appearance or something, and it makes me a bit nauseous. I'm sure we've all seen it and some of us have been it.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes.
> 
> But the thing about  "out of their league " isn't about looks. It's mostly about other stuff.
> 
> But the looks thing does need addressing too, separately.




...and it's bullshit to suggest that only men might 'feel' this...happens to women all the time too.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> Women like you are the reason men don't post on these threads.




I am happily a woman that will tell you to fuck the fuckety fuck off. Then come back and fuck off some more. What an utter immature cock. You demand so much more from women and don't even acknowledge it, you then think you can insult and guilt trip. No. grow the fuck up.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> My issue is that 'men' are being dragged through the mud. It's cunts that are the problem, not 'men', and there are as many women fall under the 'cunt' category as there are men.



Patriarchy as a historically inequitable and abusive institutionalised 'system' and it's influences/consequences are being dragged through the mud, not men.


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## quimcunx (Jun 19, 2019)

Bare facts, if you want to talk about looks and presentation/style most people go out with people who are level ish with themselves. When a 25 year old woman, looking as fresh and good as she's ever likely to look, dressed to impress in whatever that means to her,  walking down the street in the afternoon and a 45 year old alcoholic with BO lunges at her tits and propositions her would you not agree she is out of his league?

Or look at it another way, if she was your friend and said she agreed to go for a drink with him wouldnt you think no way, shes out of  his league? You'd  wonder how low her self esteem must be.


----------



## wtfftw (Jun 19, 2019)

Yeah come on. We don't all having winning personalities either.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 19, 2019)

wtfftw said:


> Yeah come on. We don't all having winning personalities either.




Exactly, whilst I acknowledge there is a horrible 'she's out of your league/punching above your weight' tendency within patriarchy it's nonsense to imagine that us women don't have similar worries.

The fact that it's the competitive, dog-eat-dog, be the alpha part of patriarchy that demands men experience this I can't fathom why we women are responsible, again.


----------



## Espresso (Jun 19, 2019)

Saul Goodman said:


> I'm actually a handsome bastard who has no problem in that department, but thanks for confirming my suspicions.



Men, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.  

A proper and _actual_ man can see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. So such a man in receipt of a rebuff will bugger off. 
In receipt of interest, a proper an actual man who wasn't raised by wolves will engage in conversation with said other person of the human race. Result: interest and all round yay! 

Bastards, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Equally obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well. 

A bastard absolutely and wilfully *cannot* see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. Obvs. (Well. Obviously to people who were not raised by wolves. Or dolphins. Or bononbos) 
In  receipt of a rebuff such a bastard will not bugger off. He will persist and persist and persist. He will make a nuisance of himself to the woman and when she absolutely makes it clear she's not interested will INSTANTLY change his opinion of her from being "Oooh, she's hot/nice/sexy/all round splendid" to "What a fucking slag" or, for added shite "Time of the month is it?" or for extra special added superduper lolz "Dyke" and or "Frigid bitch" 
In receipt of interest a bastard will think "Aye aye, an easy bitch slag I can fuck. Woo hoo!"


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## Santino (Jun 19, 2019)

Espresso said:


> Men, whether handsome or otherwise can and do approach women. Obvs. If the woman in question is interested she will intimate as such. If she is not, she will as well.
> 
> A proper and _actual_ man can see the difference, regardless of how handsome he thinks he is. So such a man in receipt of a rebuff will bugger off.
> In receipt of interest, a proper an actual man who wasn't raised by wolves will engage in conversation with said other person of the human race. Result: interest and all round yay!
> ...


 I don't think the rhetoric of 'proper and actual men' is helpful here. There's nothing in the concept of being a man that means you're nice or decent. It's toxic.


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## Espresso (Jun 19, 2019)

Santino said:


> I don't think the rhetoric of 'proper and actual men' is helpful here. There's nothing in the concept of being a man that means you're nice or decent. It's toxic.



True.
I suppose that I must have been indulging in a bit of whispering. For the bastards among us.


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## Miss-Shelf (Jun 19, 2019)

Earlier on this thread I was going to say I have not experienced attention from men in the street for many years.  I walk very fast usually I think and look approachable perhaps 

Or I block it out or something 

And then walking home on the dark past the bus stop two older men said "hello young lady"   I just ignored them  
It wasn't dangerous,  it probably wasnt sexual  attention but it's the asking for attention from a woman that's so entitled and wrong.   I wasn't scared and I'm not shook up.   But in the context if this thread I was more aware than ever of how this low level intrusion is SO wrong and indicative of the power imbalance between men and women 

No awareness of the woman's feelings that she might be anxious in the street at night,   that she might be intimidated by two men 

Its all about their entertainment,   their power 

Asserting their ownership of  public space


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## KatyF (Jun 19, 2019)

I've had this conversation about out of league etc before with a mate (male) when trying to explain how I didnt like men just approaching me in the street, or turning their cars round and just driving slowly next to me, or sitting with me uninvited in the pub and he honestly said 'oh you wouldn't mind if they were good looking'. Way to miss the actual point.

Also reading all this has made me realise some things about my some of my friends. I have one friend who everyone thinks it's hilarious that he's tried it on with all my female friends. I very much don't find it funny, I'm embarrassed. I've even said I'll have to stop inviting him to things and others are like no he doesn't mean anything, no one could be threatened by him. Well yes, yes they could and yes they have been.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 20, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I was just reading here, with interest, anger, shame and various other feelings on behalf of all of us who may well have indulged in behaviour that inspires these kinds of fear and defensiveness. I will go back to reading quietly, too, but on this subtopic I have something to add.
> 
> There were a few years around the millennium when because (I believe) of my shape/face, and the places I was spending time, and the people I was with and what I was doing, I was getting regularly propositioned by both men and women. I didn't like it, at all, and it had nothing to do with looks (maybe to do with drunken ugliness, a whole other kind of ugliness). It was to do with invading my space, unwanted touching, and the entitlement of someone who just doesn't understand why you would say 'no'.
> 
> ...




Horribly, I have to admit that I thought:

1- How dare he compare his brief experience to my lifelong normal.

2- Thank God a man has also had this experience and can express it in a way that other men might believe and understand it.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 20, 2019)

Miss-Shelf said:


> Earlier on this thread I was going to say I have not experienced attention from men in the street for many years.  I walk very fast usually I think and look approachable perhaps
> 
> Or I block it out or something
> 
> ...




Or just lost in thought, thinking of the song she's writing or the the lesson plan she needs to do, or her lover, or the funeral she's going to tomorrow.  How many of those men who intrude quite readily and randomly on women would feel so free to interrupt a man?


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## chilango (Jun 20, 2019)

Many years ago I was at a work thing. One of my colleagues was subject to some of this unwanted attention from some other guests in the hotel. She reported to one of our managers who replied with with the "you wouldn't have minded if they good looking line". On telling the rest of us everybody, men and women (and a pretty disparate bunch) not only found ways to support our colleague, but instantly denounced the manager as a "sleaze".


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## krtek a houby (Jun 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I know when men have started wanking on public transport and I've moved away saying loudly 'there's a wanker here' the man has done the whole looking innocent 'she's mad' thing so everyone looks at me like I'm the problem.



Shit, that's horrible. If you can, take a picture (if it ever happens again). Easy to say, of course, as the victim can freeze in the situation. My sister and her friends were subjected to a wanker in public transport when they were young teens and they couldn't move. Just burst into tears and nobody came to ask if they were ok. 

This thread is as deeply depressing as it is illuminating.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 20, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> Shit, that's horrible. If you can, take a picture (if it ever happens again). Easy to say, of course, as the victim can freeze in the situation. My sister and her friends were subjected to a wanker in public transport when they were young teens and they couldn't move. Just burst into tears and nobody came to ask if they were ok.
> 
> This thread is as deeply depressing as it is illuminating.



I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.

Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.


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## Baronage-Phase (Jun 20, 2019)

Manter said:


> Ignore him. Let’s have a reasonable conversation as if that *creature* never happened




He is a human being.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.
> 
> Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.


You do have great hats, to be fair.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 20, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> I have been propositioned thrice on the street, once by schoolgirls when I was 16 and twice by prostitutes. I found none of these encounters threatening, or that exciting, but rather bizarre and tawdry. However, I have seen women propositioned on the street and it's seemed to me a much less amicable affair, as has been described on this thread. The nearest I can put it into a male equivalent would be if other men started on you for no reason, doing the dance from what are you looking at to *smack*. The sort of pacific things you'd do to end the encounter without violence. Yeh it's not a perfect analogy, but the unwanted interference and potential difficulty in extricating yourself seem to me comparable


 only 3 times in a whole lifetime? I'm a fat lesbian and when I was younger I think I've had short walks where its happend more than 3 times.

Then imagine what its like when that happens most weeks, for years on end. The accumulation of small events, the overall effect it has on us. I just don't think most men can imagine what that is like, how exhausting/ off putting / fucking annoying it is.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 20, 2019)

Lupa said:


> He is a human being.


a fucking annoying human being.


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## friendofdorothy (Jun 20, 2019)

equationgirl said:


> You do have great hats, to be fair.


thanks!


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## equationgirl (Jun 20, 2019)

Lupa said:


> He is a human being.


He may be a human but he was saying some pretty vile and despicable things.


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## mango5 (Jun 20, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> only 3 times in a whole lifetime? I'm a fat lesbian and when I was younger I think I've had short walks where its happend more than 3 times.
> 
> Then imagine what its like when that happens most weeks, for years on end. The accumulation of small events, the overall effect it has on us. I just don't think most men can imagine what that is like, how exhausting/ off putting / fucking annoying it is.


It probably happens to me weekly on average, some sort of inviting remark. Doesn't seem to matter if I'm stylish or scruffy.


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## mango5 (Jun 20, 2019)

This was a fantastic illustration of the issue

:10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman - Wikipedia


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## ice-is-forming (Jun 20, 2019)

mango5 said:


> This was a fantastic illustration of the issue
> 
> :10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman - Wikipedia


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## Glitter (Jun 20, 2019)

scifisam said:


> We taught them man-whispering because it was better than teaching them about the morning after pill and AIDS tests or never letting them have any freedom.



Lets just think about this for a minute. 

These girls were 11. 11, and this was necessary. 



Miss-Shelf said:


> Earlier on this thread I was going to say I have not experienced attention from men in the street for many years.  I walk very fast usually I think and look approachable perhaps
> 
> Or I block it out or something
> 
> ...



I went to see Metallica on Tuesday in Manchester. I was staying at my Mum’s and had to get the Metrolink back. The tram stop is probs a 40 minute walk from Mum’s and buses are sporadic. I intended to get off at Eccles, either walk back (unlikely as I’m lazy) or walk to a taxi place and get back. 

Some guy started talking to me on the tram. I was sitting reading (Kindle in handbag) but quite happy to chat really. He got off before me and said he was getting on his bike home. 

Then it occurred to me I’d told him where I was getting off, I know that station is relatively deserted and I don’t actually know where the nearest taxi place is. My phone was dead (I had considered ringing my Dad, despite being 40 years old) and I was getting really scared. I contemplated getting off a stop earlier, then realised that was even more fucking stupid as I had no idea what was there and think there was nothing. 

Anyway, it was fine. I got off the tram and straight into a black cab. I’m sure the man I was talking to was fine but I have no fucking idea. 

Do blokes EVER think like this? On what should have been a mundane journey?


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## Sue (Jun 20, 2019)

This is what interests me. All these stories, shit, if I sadly don't find them surprising.

Are they surprising to men? Do they know this shit happens and is really, really common? I'd be interested to hear more.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.
> 
> Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.



The average wanker would probably try to run a mile, with the threat of mass exposure - his tiny junk going viral, etc. But that's guesswork. It's the thought of these tossers getting away with being a menace to others that rankles. And those who stand by, without trying to intervene. Are they that engrossed in their phones or are they just scared to get involved?

Back to the kind of men who get off on harassment. In Japan we have public transport gropers - chikan. This story did the rounds recently over here and it could probably lead to legal action for the tripper but there's something quite satisfactory about it. He clearly wasn't scared of getting involved. 

Suspected chikan tripped up at Akabane Station | TokyoReporter


As for hats etc, I can only speak for myself but I got harassed often - obvs not on the scale that women get it - when living in London. I'm so not an alpha/macho male and have a penchant for garish attire


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

Glitter said:


> Do blokes EVER think like this? On what should have been a mundane journey?





Sue said:


> This is what interests me. All these stories, shit, if I sadly don't find them surprising.
> 
> Are they surprising to men? Do they know this shit happens and is really, really common? I'd be interested to hear more.



To be honest, yeah, I'm surprised (well, shocked or horrified) that this shit is so common.

At least, that was my first response.

But reading Glitter's post and question got me thinking.

That story resonated with me, as,  yeah , I've often thought like that. 

It's not the same.

But...

...as a man I've grown up learning strategies to deal with the threat of violence too. 

The fear or threat of fights, of muggings etc.

I've done, still do, the "keys in hand".  The avoiding eye contact, the changing routes to avoid drunken or intimidating men. 

I've done the opposite too. Made myself appear intimidating, not a soft target, changing my posture, my pace, the look in my eyes...

It's not the same.

...and it doesn't stop me being shocked and horrified by your stories.


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 21, 2019)

ice-is-forming said:


>


----------



## Manter (Jun 21, 2019)

krtek a houby said:


> The average wanker would probably try to run a mile, with the threat of mass exposure - his tiny junk going viral, etc. But that's guesswork. It's the thought of these tossers getting away with being a menace to others that rankles. And those who stand by, without trying to intervene. Are they that engrossed in their phones or are they just scared to get involved?
> 
> Back to the kind of men who get off on harassment. In Japan we have public transport gropers - chikan. This story did the rounds recently over here and it could probably lead to legal action for the tripper but there's something quite satisfactory about it. He clearly wasn't scared of getting involved.
> 
> ...


The average wanker would. But it’s entirely possible one wouldn’t, or would escalate. We can’t assume that being righteous makes us safe.

And even rescuers- an Australian guy rescued me from a man who was following me round J’maa al Fnaa shoving his hand between my legs. He walked me back to where I was staying; half way there the conversation changed and he put his arm round my shoulder, hand straying to my breast. Fortunately we were nearly there, there were people around the doorway, I could run in.... but we can never assume we are safe, that no one will take advantage, that people will respond in a logical way


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## Baronage-Phase (Jun 21, 2019)

Glitter Your post really shows what it is like in my experience. 
I live about .25 km from a shop. If I have to go there at night.. say after 9...I wont walk. 
There's only one reason for that. It's not that I am afraid of women or children. It is 100% wariness of meeting some man or men who will try some shit or say something that unsettles me or worse. I'm not even thinking robbery.  It is an inbuilt fear of being assaulted or intimidated or just even bothered by some stranger(s) who think(s) its perfectly ok to strike up a conversation because it's dark and  they're waiting for their takeaway meal and I'm a woman. It's never a normal conversation either.. I know I'm being sized up...like a lump of meat. 
When it has happened, I'll put on my default dont fuck with me face. And given maybe a one word answer  I've found myself taking out my phone to have fake phone calls just to avoid the person trying to chat to me.


----------



## polly (Jun 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> To be honest, yeah, I'm surprised (well, shocked or horrified) that this shit is so common.
> 
> At least, that was my first response.
> 
> ...



Yes - I fear for my son as much as I fear for my daughter. For different reasons, but the source is the same. People tend to get a bit upset when I say it here but it's male violence. I listen to the radio a lot and when the news comes on it's like a list of terrible things that men have done, to women, children and other men. I realise that it's a minority of you and that the rest of you suffer, from their actions as well as by association. I guess that if we accept that male violence is nurtured and fed by patriarchal expectations, it's so important that we continue to unpick all the other stuff that comes from a patriarchal set up, as benign as it might feel - I really believe that tackling - for example - the ideas bound up in chivalry, will help lead to an environment where we feel able to name and call out male violence.  

Dunno. Maybe I shouldn't post before breakfast


----------



## neonwilderness (Jun 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> I've done the opposite too. Made myself appear intimidating, not a soft target, changing my posture, my pace, the look in my eyes...
> 
> It's not the same.
> 
> ...and it doesn't stop me being shocked and horrified by your stories.


Similarly I often find myself going out of my way not to appear intimidating to certain people. I walk fairly fast so I’m quite conscious not to suddenly appear behind someone and have to try and squeeze past them on a narrow street, or change my route so it doesn’t look like I’m following them.


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## chilango (Jun 21, 2019)

neonwilderness said:


> Similarly I often find myself going out of my way not to appear intimidating to certain people. I walk fairly fast so I’m quite conscious not to suddenly appear behind someone and have to try and squeeze past them on a narrow street, or change my route so it doesn’t look like I’m following them.



Yeah. That too.

It's quite hard trying appear intimidating to some people (men) whilst at the same time not intimidating to others (women).


----------



## neonwilderness (Jun 21, 2019)

chilango said:


> Yeah. That too.
> 
> It's quite hard trying appear intimidating to some people (men) whilst at the same time not intimidating to others (women).


Yep, I’d probably extend the last bit to some kids and older people too. 

I’m sure anyone who’s met me wouldn’t call me intimidating (I hope ), but I suppose it’s natural for people to be wary of someone they don’t know getting too close.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 21, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> I don't have a camera ( or that type of phone) but I'm not sure that taking a picture wouldn't be seen as too confrontational for the average wanker. Would that escalate a situation? I'd be interested what those versed in the art of whispering think of the idea of snapping pics of abusive men.
> 
> Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.



I tend to call them out, shame them publicly. Like the time I was sat on the bus and a man was rubbing his erect cock against my shoulder. I said loudly "Stop rubbing your erection against my shoulder". It was a crowded bus, everyone turned to look and I pointed at him. Only then did I notice that his date /girlfriend was stood beside him. 

The time a man grabbed my bum on the escalator so  turned and looked directly at him and said loudly "Don't touch my arse " and then at the top of the escalator I pointed at him and spoke loudly enough for others to hear "That man touched me on my bum". He tried to go through the denial bullshit but I know what happened and I wasn't backing down. He blushed scarlet and started to go down the escalator and I stood and pointed at him and said "That man touches women he doesn't know". Everyone was looking at him.

The pointing allows me to identify them and keep my distance.

I am so sick of this bullshit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jun 21, 2019)

Manter said:


> The average wanker would. But it’s entirely possible one wouldn’t, or would escalate. We can’t assume that being righteous makes us safe.
> 
> And even rescuers- an Australian guy rescued me from a man who was following me round J’maa al Fnaa shoving his hand between my legs. He walked me back to where I was staying; half way there the conversation changed and he put his arm round my shoulder, hand straying to my breast. Fortunately we were nearly there, there were people around the doorway, I could run in.... but we can never assume we are safe, that no one will take advantage, that people will respond in a logical way



 there is no logic to predators, I guess


----------



## gentlegreen (Jun 21, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Only then did I notice that his date /girlfriend was stood beside him.


Hopefully she told her mates ...


----------



## IC3D (Jun 21, 2019)

For talking to the wrong woman I've been punched repeatly in the head, had a knife pulled on me and followed into a bathroom and strangled all by strangers to the women I was with. There are more but these ones stick in the memory.


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## polly (Jun 21, 2019)

IC3D said:


> For talking to the wrong woman I've been punched repeatly in the head, had a knife pulled on me and followed into a bathroom and strangled all by strangers to the women I was with. There are more but these ones stick in the memory.



Fuck  Violence to other men under the guise of chivalry and protecting women is pretty common, I think? 

One of my earliest memories of being terrified by violence was coming home from school and seeing one man standing over another, who was lying in the middle of the road, kicking him repeatedly in the head. He was yelling 'how dare you talk to a woman in church like that?' My mum stopped and just stood there, and the attacker sort of gave up and wandered off. The other man got up and said to my mum, 'I've never seen him before in my life, don't go to church' etc  Just an excuse to unleash violence on him, and one that might make people pause because it's ostensibly in the defence of a fragile flower of a woman. A woman in church too! Plot twist: the attacker was a girl in my class's uncle, and it turned out later that he battered her aunt so badly she needed facial reconstruction and had to change her name after she left him so he couldn't track her down  A real hero to womankind. 

This is the kind of thing I was alluding to earlier: the idea that women need saving from men through violence just reinforces the dynamic of strong, powerful man vs weak, powerless woman, and leaves us at the mercy and whim of white knights. Plus lots of innocent men get kickings  

I'm so sorry all those things happened to you.


----------



## JudithB (Jun 24, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> Unlikely to happen to me now - I've reached that magic age of near invisibilty, no one looks at women of a certain age. I walk around unnoticed, uncommented upon and unharrassed - this must be what it is like being a man. Unless I wear a nice hat and get complimented on for the hat by men and women - which is lovely.


I have embraced this fully


----------



## spanglechick (Jun 24, 2019)

Am not surprised men also have to man whisper. 

The problem is violence, and violence is overwhelmingly a male behaviour.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 24, 2019)

spanglechick said:


> Am not surprised men also have to man whisper.
> 
> The problem is violence, and violence is overwhelmingly a male behaviour.


Violence of all types seems to be more common amongst men.  I'm not used to reading stats - can someone else look at the numbers? 
The nature of violent crime in England and Wales - Office for National Statistics


> Younger adults were more likely to be victims of violent crimes than those in older age groups. This pattern was more pronounced for incidents where the perpetrator was a stranger or acquaintance compared with incidents of domestic violence.
> 
> Men were more likely to be victims of violent crime where the perpetrator was a stranger or acquaintance. However, women were more likely to be victims of domestic violence perpetrated by a partner or ex-partner, or other family member.
> 
> Over half (57%) of all violent incidents were experienced by repeat victims. This was most common among victims of domestic violence.


I have noticed that the papers often cover acts of violence by women, probably because it is rarer / more shocking.

I was over 30 before I encountered any violence /controlling behaviour at the hands of a woman, I was so naive I thought women didn't do that, very disappointed to discover they did.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 25, 2019)

I was raised on female violence, from my mother among others, and I know among my peers I wasn't alone. I'm not talking about some formal "a smacked bottom", I'm talking about daily, casual lashing out at heads and faces for countless tiny infractions. My mother was way, way more likely to hit me than my father (who actually cried the one time he smacked me).

Anyway I think female violence towards adults is considerably less common than female violence towards kids. I still witness that in eg supermarkets with alarming frequency.

Off topic, but a response to the immediate subtopic above. Genuinely nervous to post on this thread tbh.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 25, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I was raised on female violence, from my mother among others, and I know among my peers I wasn't alone. I'm not talking about some formal "a smacked bottom", I'm talking about daily, casual lashing out at heads and faces for countless tiny infractions. My mother was way, way more likely to hit me than my father (who actually cried the one time he smacked me).
> 
> Anyway I think female violence towards adults is considerably less common than female violence towards kids. I still witness that in eg supermarkets with alarming frequency.
> 
> Off topic, but a response to the immediate subtopic above. Genuinely nervous to post on this thread tbh.



Please don't be nervious. My mum beat some of us all the bloody time. She beat us girls. I can't remember my brothers ever copping it. She took out her impatience and frustration on us daily. She was also beaten as a child by her mother and she was emotionally and physically abused in her first marriage. My father never hit me once.


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 25, 2019)

My dad beat us all black and blue, because he could. We were boys (male but not a physical threat) and a woman (my mum).


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 25, 2019)

How horrible, seventh bullet.  You must have traumatic childhood memories.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jun 25, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Please don't be nervious. My mum beat some of us all the bloody time. She beat us girls. I can't remember my brothers ever copping it. She took out her impatience and frustration on us daily. She was also beaten as a child by her mother and she was emotionally and physically abused in her first marriage. My father never hit me once.


Same for me.


----------



## polly (Jun 25, 2019)

I'm so sorry, mojo pixy and seventh bullet. And Rutita1 and kalidarkone - I wrote this ages ago and just saw your post. Only you girls?  

I had a physically violent mum too. I wonder if she ever thinks about it, knowing that we don't hit our kids at all. It's just never talked about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 25, 2019)

seventh bullet said:


> My dad beat us all black and blue, because he could. We were boys (male but not a physical threat) and a woman (my mum).


(((seventh bullet))) 

(((polly))) (((kalidarkone))) (((mojo pixy))) (((Rutita1)))


----------



## friendofdorothy (Jun 25, 2019)

'liked' posts only in liking all of your honesty 

perhaps a subject worthy of its on own thread?


----------



## seventh bullet (Jun 25, 2019)

With environmental working class stresses and other forms of abuse (which don't discriminate along class lines) in the family and out I became a very angry young man. Took years to unravel it all safely (for myself and others), it was internalised and expressed via self-injurous and at one point suicidal behaviour, but also outward as emotional cruelty to loved ones male and female which I am truly ashamed of.

Patriarchy innit.  Fucks you up.  You're supposed to be a 'man' about what life throws at you, not a fuck up. Yet it was that bullshit which contributed to other males making  me another casualty as it had them in some ways years before. It's gone what about men a little, hasn't it? As I still benefit from the P word while being affected by how it can damage and warp men, and what they're/we're capable of.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 26, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I was raised on female violence, from my mother among others, and I know among my peers I wasn't alone. I'm not talking about some formal "a smacked bottom", I'm talking about daily, casual lashing out at heads and faces for countless tiny infractions. My mother was way, way more likely to hit me than my father (who actually cried the one time he smacked me).
> 
> Anyway I think female violence towards adults is considerably less common than female violence towards kids. I still witness that in eg supermarkets with alarming frequency.
> 
> Off topic, but a response to the immediate subtopic above. Genuinely nervous to post on this thread tbh.


My mother broke one of those proper strong old wooden coat hangers across my head, and I needed 12 stitches in my head. I was 6 years old. At the hospital I was told I had to say I fell.
I've faced far more violence from women in my life than I have from men.


----------



## Manter (Jun 26, 2019)

What never ceases to stagger me is male assumptions that they are entitled to a woman’s time and attention. 

I settled down in a cafe today with a huge document to review. Coffee, headphones, seat out of everyone’s way. I was there about an hour and a half and in that time I was interrupted four times by three different men.  One asked to borrow the pen I was writing with (!)- twice. Another tapped my arm when I didn’t respond. The final one got properly sworn at, and then *he* got all offended. 

Why? Why are so many men like this?


----------



## mango5 (Jun 26, 2019)

I got a 'hey baby' from 2 different men this morning when I popped out for milk. I didn't challenge either of them as I didn't want to deal any backlash, and I thought it was likely


----------



## kabbes (Jun 26, 2019)

mango5 said:


> I got a 'hey baby' from 2 different men this morning when I popped out for milk. I didn't challenge either of them as I didn't want to deal any backlash, and I thought it was likely


For the avoidance of doubt — you’re not actually at an age that is still appropriate to measure in months, right?


----------



## mango5 (Jun 26, 2019)

I was dressed like a toddler in a bright pink t-shirt and baggy orange trousers but clearly not on my way to school.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 26, 2019)

Went out for a drink and meal with some colleagues yesterday..it was 4 o clock. Into a bar for food and I went to get drinks at the bar. A glass of Heineken, 2 diet cokes, one regular coke, a pint of miwadi, and a sparkling water.
A guy sitting at the bar went "Oh are you the designated driver?".
I looked puzzled. "The big glass of miwadi". ....ha ha.. big laugh.
So I said "there's only one person drinking ". And he still went on about miwadi.

I left with the drinks and he was still making a feck of the miwadi and me.

Ah well.


----------



## Poot (Jun 26, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Went out for a drink and meal with some colleagues yesterday..it was 4 o clock. Into a bar for food and I went to get 5 drinks at the bar. A glass of Heineken, 2 diet cokes, one regular coke, a pint of miwadi, and a sparkling water.
> A guy sitting at the bar went "Oh are you the designated driver?".
> I looked puzzled. "The big glass of miwadi". ....ha ha.. big laugh.
> So I said "there's only one person drinking ". And he still went on about miwadi.
> ...


I had to look up miwadi.  (either we don't have it or as I suspect my knowledge of soft drinks in a pub could do with some work). But yeah, I don't think a man would take the piss out of another man for not drinking, at least if they didn't know each other.

Yesterday in the street I walked past the man who tried to kill my friend with a screwdriver in front of their children. I nodded and smiled because I couldn't be bothered to have the 'why are you blanking me' conversation. Or worse. Then I spent all evening hating myself.


----------



## chilango (Jun 26, 2019)

Manter said:


> What never ceases to stagger me is male assumptions that they are entitled to a woman’s time and attention.
> 
> I settled down in a cafe today with a huge document to review. Coffee, headphones, seat out of everyone’s way. I was there about an hour and a half and in that time I was interrupted four times by three different men.  One asked to borrow the pen I was writing with (!)- twice. Another tapped my arm when I didn’t respond. The final one got properly sworn at, and then *he* got all offended.
> 
> Why? Why are so many men like this?



Nobody ever speaks to me in cafes. 

I even, accidentally, sat in one of those new fangled "chatty corners" a while back and was completely ignored.

When I spent a lot of time in cafes with my baby I was desperate for someone to speak to me, to say hello or smile, just to break the loneliness and isolation. But the gangs of mums in every cafe just blanked me.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 26, 2019)

Poot said:


> Then I spent all evening hating myself.


This is the corrosive part.  Beating ourselves up because we saved mental and physical energy by having to act with fake pleasantness and unassertiveness.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2019)

Poot said:


> I don't think a man would take the piss out of another man for not drinking, at least if they didn't know each other.


afraid this isn't true fwiw.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jun 26, 2019)

Yep. Even with your mates.


----------



## Poot (Jun 26, 2019)

I know it happens with mates. But from a random sitting at the bar? I mean, it's a dick move whoever you are, obviously.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2019)

Yeah, randoms sitting at the bar too. Just randoms sitting at the bar these days actually, my mates don't bother anymore.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 26, 2019)

I remember a friend of my ex saying he didnt trust anyone who didnt drink alcohol before he knew I couldnt drink. Then I told him I didnt drink for medical reasons. Red face... lol.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 26, 2019)

I did start to drink just to feel accepted. It was stupid. 
 and fucking dangerous considering I already had liver disease.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 26, 2019)

Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.

I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.

I regret it all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 26, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.


(((SheilaNaGig)))


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 26, 2019)

Oh SheilaNaGig xxx


----------



## Edie (Jun 26, 2019)

Poot said:


> I had to look up miwadi.  (either we don't have it or as I suspect my knowledge of soft drinks in a pub could do with some work). But yeah, I don't think a man would take the piss out of another man for not drinking, at least if they didn't know each other.
> 
> Yesterday in the street I walked past the man who tried to kill my friend with a screwdriver in front of their children. I nodded and smiled because I couldn't be bothered to have the 'why are you blanking me' conversation. Or worse. Then I spent all evening hating myself.


Bastard. 

One of the most depressing things after my ex punched my 13yo son up so badly we had to go to hospital and have police photos done was the number of friends (read: almost everyone) who pretended it hadn’t happened and still went drinking with him.

Like there could be two sides to that story.

Fuck the patriarchy.


----------



## Edie (Jun 26, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.


Shit sorry just seen this. Sending love <3

And still, fuck the patriarchy.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 26, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.


That's assault. ABH

Fucking abusive mateyprickcunt.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jun 26, 2019)

Shit SheilaNaGig that's horrendous. Was this someone you know?


----------



## kebabking (Jun 26, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Went out for a drink and meal with some colleagues yesterday..it was 4 o clock. Into a bar for food and I went to get 5 drinks at the bar. A glass of Heineken, 2 diet cokes, one regular coke, a pint of miwadi, and a sparkling water.
> A guy sitting at the bar went "Oh are you the designated driver?".
> I looked puzzled. "The big glass of miwadi". ....ha ha.. big laugh.
> So I said "there's only one person drinking ". And he still went on about miwadi.
> ...



Me and Mrs K went to a bar a couple of weeks ago, I ordered (while Mrs K was looking for a table) a pint of lager and a pint of lemonade. Mrs K stood next to me as the young lad behind the bar poured the drinks - he did the lager first and put it in front of me, I moved it in front of Mrs K, and when the lemonade was finished he, despite the lager being very conspicuously in Mrs K's hand, put the lemonade in front of her with a completely mystified look on his face - he was (silently) asking why she was drinking my lager.

What a twat. The patriarchy bit is, I suppose, that I was irritated, but also amused, whereas Mrs K was just irritated.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 26, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.



Shit that's awful (((SheilaNaGig )))


----------



## campanula (Jun 26, 2019)

My partner has been unable to do landscaping work (we usually work together) but is also not allowed to claim any sort of benefits because we own a little woodland...even though he has ongoing health issues. So we are flat broke. I advertised my horticultural services with the intention of going back to solo jobbing gardening, especially if I can do consultation work. This week, I have been working every day and going out to look at jobs in the evening. Partner has done nothing. Not washed the dishes, not cooked, shopped, cleaned. He has sulked though. After working all morning, I announced I was off to the allotment - I haven't been for a week. he glanced up and said, in outraged astonushment ' but it's nearly 5 oclock'.
'So'
'but what about dinner'
'what about it'
well, are you not going to shop for it and cook it.
'No'
cue massive sulking that 'we never discussed you going back to work (a lie)
'You never said you were going to work all week' I had already said I was just setting up work and was a bit overwhelmed. Not a jot of support...just whining. And I know he is feeling a bit emasculated...but he could go and look for a bloody job, even part-time. The thing is, I dare not mention the fact that he has done nothing at all, has taken up no slack in the house, garden or anywhere else and has been even obstructive about the work I am doing FOR BOTH OF US.
Yet I absolute guarantee that if he was working, it would be 'hail the conquering hero, dinner on the table etc etc.
This is man-whispering - his ego is both fragile yet demanding and I have to actually step around his sulking, do nothing, without even daring to ask what about washing the fucking dishes. I don't bloody well want to work every day either. I have no time to do my own garden or allotment, he has not shown a shred of interest in my work, has offered no help or support yet he is still the wounded abandoned victim. yet I have to carry on as though I had all the time in the world, somehow earning money while being in denial that I am...
This is all wrong


----------



## Manter (Jun 26, 2019)

chilango said:


> Nobody ever speaks to me in cafes.
> 
> I even, accidentally, sat in one of those new fangled "chatty corners" a while back and was completely ignored.
> 
> When I spent a lot of time in cafes with my baby I was desperate for someone to speak to me, to say hello or smile, just to break the loneliness and isolation. But the gangs of mums in every cafe just blanked me.


Well send me your phone number as I seem to attract people desperate to chat


----------



## polly (Jun 26, 2019)

Fucking hell SheilaNaGig  I hope you're safe.



Poot said:


> Yesterday in the street I walked past the man who tried to kill my friend with a screwdriver in front of their children. I nodded and smiled because I couldn't be bothered to have the 'why are you blanking me' conversation. Or worse. Then I spent all evening hating myself.



I can relate to this. I've got a few friends in abusive relationships, one of whom was raped last year by her husband. She got pregnant and really wanted to keep it but he forced her to get an abortion. Every time I go round there and he's there I have to make nice, because if I don't it puts her in danger. But I still feel like a cunt.

(I remember the story with your friend - I really really really hope she got away.)


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Jun 26, 2019)

polly said:


> Fucking hell SheilaNaGig  I hope you're safe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh God.  Oh God.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jun 26, 2019)

I have a friend that despite having left an abusive marriage is still regularly stalked,  car keyed etc .....anyway the husband is dead to me .....as soon as I found out what had been going on and is still occurring. What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.

However I agree that in a situation where the abused partner is still living with the perpetrator one has to be very cautious.


----------



## JudithB (Jun 26, 2019)

If I have missed a post with within this thread, I do apologise. I cannot find it now to link to but that is probably because I am spectacularly rubbish at searching on twitter, please look up the thread by @JaneGodley. Very sweary Scottish comedian who started a thread about how charming the man was who murdered her mother and threw her body in the river.

This charming man...


----------



## polly (Jun 26, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.



Yes agreed, that's basically being complicit in the abuse. I know of two women off the top of my head whose social group has seen them being beaten up by their partners (one was beaten up in the pub, one in her living room during a gathering) and done nothing, continued to socialise with the man. For the record, my friend knows exactly where I stand and I have offered her my home, my help and my advice when she's spoken to me about it. She's still very much in that place where she'll only talk to me about it when it's at crisis point and the rest of the time pretends everything is perfect. It's really difficult to know how to support your friends in that state but she knows very well that I am not on the fence.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 26, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.


I am sick of the silence around this stuff, that support has to be offered in secret. Especially when you see someone starting a new relationship with a known abuser. Oh, the relief if/when it ends quickly... And the dread and self-loathing when it doesn't.... The question 'why did none of us say anything' is very hard to live with


----------



## JudithB (Jun 26, 2019)

mango5 said:


> I am sick of the silence around this stuff, that support has to be offered in secret. Especially when you see someone starting a new relationship with a known abuser. Oh, the relief if/when it ends quickly... And the dread and self-loathing when it doesn't.... The question 'why did none of us say anything' is very hard to live with


We're so conditioned not to say anything. The blame game is drilled into us. I remember my mother telling me not to comment on friend's relationships, because when they get back together you'll be blamed for telling the truth. I had a friend do the same to me when I was in an abusive relationship. I was aware I was ignoring her, aware she was telling me the truth to get out. But, still I couldn't, wouldn't. It's a very complicated situation.


----------



## killer b (Jun 26, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides


IME they often aren't even really on the fence. They remain 'neutral' because it's easier not to make a fuss, despite knowing full well what the abuser is and does.

Many years ago, my then girlfriend was assaulted - no-one disbelieved us: indeed, the guy who assaulted her became known as 'the night stalker' among the wider circle of friends because of his sinister behaviour around women. Yet when I made it known we didn't want to be around him, it was us who were dropped. For the night stalker. cause it was easier than calling him out, or even just not calling him.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jun 26, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.


Do you need any help?


----------



## mango5 (Jun 27, 2019)

Oh SheilaNaGig  I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.

Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics. 
Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 27, 2019)

One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.

I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.

We got back to the flat afterwards, made nice with my brother, ate dinner and then I went home. I gave her a hug at the door and wished her luck.

She left while he was out seeing friends 3 days later. I was very proud of her, and myself.

When my brother told me about her leaving I told him what I had done. He never tried that fucking shit with me again.

I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is _classic _too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 27, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Oh SheilaNaGig  I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.
> 
> Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics.
> Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?



I think it's a bit of 2 things.

People are generally less argumentative in person. I've met people who are constantly rude to me on here and then couldn't have been less confrontational irl.
People are also unable to reach through the screen and beat you up so the distance is safety.

Generally speaking, in everyday dealings with people (man or woman) I am sure we are doing unconscious risk assessments depending on the situation.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 27, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Oh SheilaNaGig  I am so sorry this happened to you, such a strong and wise person.
> 
> Without wishing to trivialise, recent posts on this and related threads have made me wonder about online vs offline dynamics.
> Are women generally less assertive and 'nicer' in real life than online (especially pseudonymous places like Urban) because of lower risks of male aggression? The fear is usually less visceral because we literally cannot be physically threatened?



Absolutely. I can be a really outspoken bitch online, and it's quite a nice release.

 In real life, I tend to hold my tongue and keep my head down, or if I do have a point to make I don't do it abruptly.

The nice thing about online is that I can get out what's in my head without fearing a beating for saying the "wrong" thing.

And I can take name calling online.

I was bullied through the whole school system so I've got used to laughing at clique think and name calling (or smearing). Most women have suffered worse so online is a cynch.

To be honest, online, I find men doing their whole cliquey bullshit amusing and pitiful in equal measures. 

Offline it is pitiful, but I will never find it amusing becuase standing up for yourself is dangerous and I wouldn't take that risk. So yes. You suck up and be "nice" even when you don't want to be. 

Men who behave in that way online - aggressive and smeary and condescending - (and I can think of a few names) I would actively avoid in real life because that sort of bullying tactic is a HUGE red flag for me.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> People are generally less argumentative in person. I've met people who are constantly rude to me on here and the couldn't have been less confrontational irl


Yes Urbz in general are notoriously much nicer IRL.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 27, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Last night I refused to man whisper. I now have cuts on one hand and bruises along the opposite arm. Three hour's sleep. Exhausted.
> 
> I rose up. I spoke up. I answered back. I spoke my mind.
> 
> I regret it all.



Fuck.  
Hope you're ok, safe and supported.

I don't really look in on this thread but misread a thread title this time.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jun 27, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> I have a friend that despite having left an abusive marriage is still regularly stalked,  car keyed etc .....anyway the husband is dead to me .....as soon as I found out what had been going on and is still occurring. What I find really difficult are the 'on the fence friends' not wanting to take sides and by doing so not having our friends back and supporting that abusive behaviour.
> 
> However I agree that in a situation where the abused partner is still living with the perpetrator one has to be very cautious.


I had an experience recently where I bumped into the boyfriend of someone I barely know. She told me a few years back while drunk that he hits her. Of course that made me loathe him instantly...but the awkward bit is if I was off to him, what if he takes it out on her? Correctly assuming that ive heard some bad shit about him. So I let this absolute bastard sit at our table moaning about how hard his life is while he's at the pub and she's at home doing everything.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.
> 
> I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.
> 
> ...


Good on you seriously


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## Edie (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.
> 
> I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.
> 
> ...


Holy fucking shit you are an insanely hardcore woman of principle


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## Edie (Jun 27, 2019)

For me with my ex, what I want above everything is for people around him to tell him ‘stop, this isn’t okay’. But no one does.

His parents and girlfriend sat next to him for over 9 months of child protection hearings. No one sat next to me. The men who are our mutual friends still go out with him (the women- my friends- don’t). They still drink with a man who when drunk beats his wife and sons. Not heresay. Actually evidenced by police and social services and bruises, they ask me if we’re alright but they still go. I just do not understand it 

The only conclusion of all this is that at base, it’s socially acceptable to be a pisshead who occasionally loses their temper and lashes out. That’s the bottom line


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## FridgeMagnet (Jun 27, 2019)

People are very unwilling to accept things which challenge their basic idea of how somebody is - cognitive dissonance and all that. In the case of DV there are all sorts of myths that people fall back on to avoid confronting the facts, but even when they don't believe those, they still don't want to confront things and if they can all tacitly get away with behaving like nothing's changed they will.

I kind of half get why but I still can't quite sympathise. I remember hearing about a friend of a friend who had stabbed her boyfriend, and there was no indication that it was self defence or anything, she was drunk and fucked up and stabbed him. (Non-fatally, and I don't say this out of some "oh women do this too" motivation, it's just my experience.) Everyone pretended like nothing had happened at all and I just couldn't go with it. Luckily I never actually met them again or I don't think I could have complied with that.


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## trabuquera (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> I've never talked about my experiences of having a domestically violent sibling before because I am really bloody ashamed of this about him and his behaviour in relationships. He is _classic _too...utterly charming, intelligent and good looking, but also a control freak, a manipulative abusive cunt.



Liked in sympathy only, because I've been in these shoes as well (not siblings, but other close male relatives) and had more sobbed-on shoulders than I could count, and held to the same line you did (I controlled myself and didn't go with my first reaction to go fight the guilty men...) - by refusing to lie for them, at the very least. It's horrible having to tread the tightrope, to bite down on your instinct to shout "just leave him RIGHT NOW!" and to not seem 'embittered' or 'crazy' (and to have at least some prospect of the family meeting up again without killing each other) ... but not to cover up for or excuse abuse either. It must be even harder for those who're really close to and dependent on those abusive male relatives, too (I didn't get on with mine anyway, so was mentally completely prepared to just throw the whole man away, not torn about 'losing the support of my brother' or what have you) - it must be very much harder still if the relationship between male and female siblings/cousins/stepsiblings/whatever is warm and close and supportive.

But no matter who they are - DV and abuse are DV and abuse and nobody should be making excuses for them. It's tough to do.


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## mango5 (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad.


I've done this once, well over a decade ago. He was a mate and I was staying with them.  She responded in the the same way as your brother's girlfriend but I don't know how things turned out.
I'm sorry I've not done it since. I think it's because the fallout from that one would have been minimal and more recently I feared losing friends _... Women friends who knew the score and made it clear they would have shunned me not him.  _I really don't know what I would do if/when the situation arises again.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 27, 2019)

Edie said:


> Holy fucking shit you are an insanely hardcore woman of principle


I seriously didn't know what else to do. It was the weirdest situation and I just reached for  the _right_ thing to do. Imagine,  I hadn't even met her before that. She was a really sweet and honest woman. She was so scared and intimidated by the situation. She thought I was taking her out to convince her to stay. How fucking dare he do that to her and me.Fucking hell. 

 I was so angry with him...just thinking about it now I am still angry at him for that and all the other times in our lives that he has made me feel so ashamed to be his sister because he is an domestic abuser.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 27, 2019)

mango5 said:


> I've done this once, well over a decade ago. He was a mate and I was staying with them.  She responded in the the same way as your brother's girlfriend but I don't know how things turned out.
> I'm sorry I've not done it since. I think it's because the fallout from that one would have been minimal and more recently I feared losing friends _... Women friends who knew the score and made it clear they would have shunned me not him.  _I really don't know what I would do if/when the situation arises again.



Arghhhhhhhhhhh!!!! 

On the friend's thing. One of my close friends as a teen/early twenties was getting battered regularly by her bloke who was, because of his connection to her all of our friends.

I used to hide her in my mum's house and he'd come looking for her and I had to lie and say she wasn't there...I always thought he knew I was lying.

She stayed with him...Myself and others spent less and less time around them as it was too painful. She convinced me to go home with her for some food one evening saying he was out. He was out but then came home with some arsehole who I know had robbed and raped another friend 6 months previously. I kinda froze  in shock...robber/rapist got totally didgey when he saw me...he knew I knew, then he started creating a scene, telling my friend's abusive partner how he was never visiting again as the 'females in your house are too stush and rude'...he basically wound him up into a frenzy then left.

Much slamming doors and ranting...then calling my mate into the kitchen to verbally assault her, then dragging her by her hair into the bathroom to beat her up. He wrapped her long hair around his hands, I could not get him off...everytime I tried he dragged her some more and kicked her. I begged and pleaded with him until he let her go...well he unwrapped his hands from her hair and threw her against the bath.

We sat in the bathroom together crying, in shock and exhausted...we could hear him in the kitchen slamming about and calling us names. I steeled myself for some man whispering...I went out of the bathroom into the living room to get my cigarettes...he saw me from the kitchen and shouted 'where the fuck are you going?' I looked back at him and then instinctively run across the room away from the door. I felt something hit my calf and looked down behind me to see a knife on the floor...the bastard had thrown a knife at me.

Luckily it only caught my calf and just nicked the skin...I lost my shit...I was so scared but went mental, we argued, he shoved me, at one point me and my friend were fighting with him...I don't remember a great deal after that apart from screaming, crying, man whispering, him softening etc...but I do know my mate slept at my house that night, with his permission of course. She went home the next day. I didn't want her to go but she did. She went on to have a child with him and I know the beatings never stopped despite the way that they always put a united front on when with friends or family. It was like a horrible game.

Many years later another friend asked me if I'd seen the local paper...I checked it out online...he got a hefty prison term for nearly killing another partner.


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## Manter (Jun 27, 2019)

Statistically I must know some domestic abusers. But I don’t know of any (iyswim). But I must do. 

I know someone who is an absolute cunt to women (sleeps around etc) but I don’t think he’s violent, just selfish. I know of two relationships where I have been told the woman is violent. I know a few where the emotional or financial dynamic sets my teeth on edge.


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## Edie (Jun 27, 2019)

Fuck Rutita1 thats absolutely dreadful


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 27, 2019)

shit, my heart is pounding after reading that


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 27, 2019)

Ufff... I've had to pour myself a large one ...There are so many other experiences I could talk about with different people, different scenarios, different ages. I've opened a little door that I manage mostly to keep closed in my life by sniffing these fuckers out early on and having firm boundaries. This stuff really has marked me though tbh.

I fucking hate the way that myself and others have been so brutalised and then insulted by those who expect us to soothe their pathetic egos, over and over again. That has happened to me as a woman repeatedly and consistently since birth, mostly because I am a woman.


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## Sue (Jun 27, 2019)

polly said:


> Fucking hell SheilaNaGig   Every time I go round there and he's there I have to make nice, because if I don't it puts her in danger. But I still feel like a cunt.


Years ago, a friend was in a relationship with an abusive BF. I never said anything to him directly (I rarely used to see him) but it was pretty clear what I thought of him -- I'd meet up with her, she'd tell me things he'd said or done and I'd be 'WTF?' and she'd go home emboldened. Well for a bit anyway, until he hit her again.

All it meant was that he stopped her seeing me. It probably would've been better for her if I'd been more considered in my approach so at least she'd have had someone there when she needed them. (They moved, changed phone numbers and all that and we lost touch for years.) I was 19 or something at the time though and didn't really know what to do. Not sure I'd be able to pretend even now though guess I'd probably try to for the sake of maintaining contact.


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## purenarcotic (Jun 27, 2019)

If you’re unsure how to respond around the abuser of someone who has disclosed abuse from their partner to you, ask them what they want / what would be safest. They’ll know what’ll work for them.


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## 8ball (Jun 27, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> One of older brothers once invited me around to speak to his then girlfriend to convince her of how hard he was trying, that he was doing well in counselling and that she shouldn't leave him for being an abusive cunt.
> 
> I took her out for a walk and told her straight. She wasn't the first and wouldn't be the last, yes I am his sister and because of that I know he will never ever fucking change. As a woman I refused to lie for him and told her to leave as soon as she could. I looked her in the eye, she was shocked but then grateful and relieved. She just needed to hear it and know she wasn't going mad. It was even more powerful coming from me.
> 
> ...



Wow.
Total respect for that.


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## trashpony (Jun 28, 2019)

Wow this thread’s a hard read. 

You’re amazing Rutita1


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## kabbes (Jun 28, 2019)

I thought I had my eyes open on this but the experiences talked about in this thread have made me realise this stuff is both more common and even more fucked up than I had imagined.  All I can say is that the one time in my life I came across evidence of it, I both shunned the guy and told as many people as I could to shun him too.  I don’t even know if that was the right thing to do, but the revulsion made it instinctual.  Now I’m wondering what I should do to sniff these incidences out rather than avoid them.


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 28, 2019)

I've been lucky compared to some as I've only been hit by men 2-3 times in my life. One was recently though. I have only told a few people about it. 
I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him. Someone saw that and so must have thought we were messing around. I tried to ring myself a taxi but the main companies refused to come to the address so I ended up having to stay the night as I didn't fancy trying to walk 8 miles home partly on a pretty spooky bit of motorway. I was upset and my stomach was in knots so I proceeded to throw up at regular intervals for the rest of the night, which luckily put him off trying too hard to get off with me. Yep he still thought he was in with a chance and he did still try. Forcefully grabbing me and pulling me onto the bed. I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times. 
The next day the guy gave me and my friend a lift home and acted like nothing had happened. He was chatty and cheery. I Just stared out of the car window waiting for it to be over. I've not talked to him since and am avoiding places where he might be and I'm losing touch with mutual friends. They all know he's a dick but won't ever ditch him. 

I wish I'd done more than slap him tbf. I wish I'd given him bruises he'd have to explain to people but I'm not a fighter or particularly violent so wouldn't have taken pleasure in that and nor would it have felt fair at the time. But argh fuck 'fair' and fuck being reasonable with these guys


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 28, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him.



This has happened to me a few times too in my youth. A drunken disagreement (hardly a rowdy argument) turns into a slap. And I'm talking about men I know and like, not arsehole randoms.

Well I slap back too. I learned very early to slap back people who say they care about me at home.

Slap back and say "I can't believe you just hit me, that's not ok" really loudly. And then walk away.

It happened once in a club and the bloke was thoroughly embarrassed and ashamed of himself after that. I called it in front of the whole club and all of our mates and he walked away in a rage and apologised for being a drunk twat the next day. It never happened again.

Once it happened with an ex who decided to push me onto a sofa quite suddenly after he got "annoyed" with something I said (I think I laughed at his belief in crystal healing and aliens). I hit him back and said that if he ever touched me again like that I will walk straight out the door and never come back. I was dead serious about that too. . It never happened again.

I reckon this can only be done with people who you know aren't violent arseholes. Hopefully I stopped a pattern of behaviour developing. In both cases I was younger than 22. As I said, I actively avoid hanging out with men who show contempt for women in speech. And I don't mean straight up nastyness. I mean a simmering resentment, the type where men "gang up" put a woman in her place during a discussion.

It seems to have served me well so far.


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## Treacle Toes (Jun 28, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Now I’m wondering what I should do to sniff these incidences out rather than avoid them.



What I meant by 'sniffing them out' is that I am hyper aware of people who are manipulative, pushy and menacing even if they do this in a charming friendly way...I have had to develop this to keep safe throughout my life. I also developed this awareness because of direct and indirect experiences of abuse. Even as a little girl I listened to my mum and her friends talking about male violence and their strategies. I remember friends of my mum's coming to hide out in our house to escape domestic violence. We had code words and escape plans. Later in my own life as a young woman I started to do the same with my own friends as discussed above. I have had to think about this stuff for as long as I can remember and because of that have a 'radar'. 

What I've learnt is that it doesn't matter if I am sometimes over cautious and keep my distance from someone just in case, but it does matter if I don't trust my instincts and get too close and abused.


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## Winot (Jun 28, 2019)

There are some truly shocking experiences on this thread


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## kabbes (Jun 28, 2019)

I guess I do know men — lots of men — that just seem... off around women.  Too creepy, too forward, willing to objectify, dehumanise and dismiss.  I’ve always avoided such men if I can do so, thinking they were pricks.  But I guess if I were female, they’d also be setting off alarm bells for their potential to violence. I get to not have to think about that part because it hasn’t personally affected me.


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## kalidarkone (Jun 28, 2019)

I feel enraged reading of SheilaNaGig and Clair De Lune 's recent experience.

I'm reminded of a guy I was seeing in my early 20's who after quite a few pints pushed me into oncoming traffic. It was the first time I'd ever been on the receiving end of violence from a partner and a man.
I battered the shit out of him. That was the end of that.

I'm a big strong woman with a propensity to 'lose it' under certain conditions....


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## kalidarkone (Jun 28, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I've been lucky compared to some as I've only been hit by men 2-3 times in my life. One was recently though. I have only told a few people about it.
> I disagreed with a guy who was arguing with me while also trying to come on to me and completely out of the blue he slapped me hard across the face. We we're at his house as a party was going on. But nobody saw it. I was really shocked but I reacted quickly and slapped him back hard. He was drunk (as was I tbf) so he fell over and pulled me over with him. Someone saw that and so must have thought we were messing around. I tried to ring myself a taxi but the main companies refused to come to the address so I ended up having to stay the night as I didn't fancy trying to walk 8 miles home partly on a pretty spooky bit of motorway. I was upset and my stomach was in knots so I proceeded to throw up at regular intervals for the rest of the night, which luckily put him off trying too hard to get off with me. Yep he still thought he was in with a chance and he did still try. Forcefully grabbing me and pulling me onto the bed. I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times.
> The next day the guy gave me and my friend a lift home and acted like nothing had happened. He was chatty and cheery. I Just stared out of the car window waiting for it to be over. I've not talked to him since and am avoiding places where he might be and I'm losing touch with mutual friends. They all know he's a dick but won't ever ditch him.
> 
> I wish I'd done more than slap him tbf. I wish I'd given him bruises he'd have to explain to people but I'm not a fighter or particularly violent so wouldn't have taken pleasure in that and nor would it have felt fair at the time. But argh fuck 'fair' and fuck being reasonable with these guys



If your mutal friends haven't got your back then they are dicks.


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## mango5 (Jun 28, 2019)

Hope it's obvious to any men reading that the kinds of threats, violence and aggression described on this thread are by no means dependent on alcohol or drugs or provocation of any sort. It's impossible to predict, especially with strangers. 
That's why the fear and state of alert is on a hair-trigger. Safety does not have clear boundaries.


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## trashpony (Jun 28, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I do something for safety when I wear a skirt out as I usually live in jeans. I wear knickers, tights and a pair of tight shorts over the top. God that feels weird to type out. But it makes it very hard for a guy to get me naked, even with force and has saved me a few times.


That's a very good tip. If I had done that, I wouldn't have been raped the last time I was. It was just too easy for him to push my knickers to one side (and I'm sure I wasn't the first woman he raped and I bet I wasn't the last either). Makes me feel sick though - like telling women not to go out when the Yorkshire Ripper was on the loose rather than telling men to stay in


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## Manter (Jun 28, 2019)

I’ve been attacked (Both sexually and hit) by men I don’t know. But never by a man that was a friend or partner, or I would have to see again.


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

The last few stories on this thread have made for very hard reading. Love to you all xxxx


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## 8ball (Jun 28, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Hope it's obvious to any men reading that the kinds of threats, violence and aggression described on this thread are by no means dependent on alcohol or drugs or provocation of any sort. It's impossible to predict, especially with strangers.
> That's why the fear and state of alert is on a hair-trigger. Safety does not have clear boundaries.



I wasn't really sure whether to keep reading after accidentally wandering in earlier and reading of SheilaNaGig's recent experience.  With the kind of experiences being shared I wasn't too sure whether it was better for the thread if posters felt like they weren't being 'watched' iyswim, but I hadn't got round to finding the 'unfollow' button.  

I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).  

I think with what you (mango5) say about safety not having clear boundaries, it does remind me of one case where a friend of mine was attacked at a party by someone who at the time was a friend of everyone there.  This wasn't a 'setting off the radar person'- this was someone who seemed so gentle and charming and generally unthreatening that we were quite knocked sideways by it.  He was a very good friend of one or two people there, but I'm not sure that anyone else who was there ever spoke to him again.	

Anyway, I've blathered enough and just really wanted to say what Mrs Miggins just said far more succinctly.


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## Baronage-Phase (Jun 28, 2019)

I am in shock at the levels of abuse and fear that posters have experienced. 
Really feel upset reading all of this. I am devastated for everyone who has been treated so appallingly.

I was lucky to grow up in a home where my dad did not drink. He grew up in a rough situation and his dad was an aggressive rough man when drunk. My dad swore he would never touch a drop of alcohol after seeing his mother struggle with keeping the family together.

And I've been really very very lucky to have been in a relationship with someone who was not physically abusive or violent.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 28, 2019)

8ball said:


> I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).



Thank you for saying this.

Man whispering does start at placation, precisely because women don't know what will happen if they don’t placate a given man on a given day. And this is normally because #YesAllWomen have experienced what happens when you don't placate the nicest of men. Occasionally it ends horribly.

The slap that I and Clair De Lune talked about is also a kind of man whispering.

You can only do it with young men who are otherwise "nice". The mirroring. The returning the undesirable action (more softly) and then highlighting it, is also man-whispering. It highlights shitty behaviour to otherwise good men in a mirror like fashion.

When I hit back and said  "I can't believe you just hit me, do it again and I'll walk"

What you're actually saying is:

1) this is what you just did to me - a physical example (slapped/pushed/punched push back)

2) I'm shocked that somone as *good as you* ("I can't believe") has it in them.

3) Here's an ultimatum for that kind of behaviour. I withdraw any affection.


It works. But only if the bloke is nice, young, and pushing boundaries.

It's an exercise in asserting boundeies. When a man has fallen into that behavior pattern it's too risky to do. Or too late.

Like horses.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 28, 2019)

8ball said:


> I wasn't really sure whether to keep reading after accidentally wandering in earlier and reading of SheilaNaGig's recent experience.  With the kind of experiences being shared I wasn't too sure whether it was better for the thread if posters felt like they weren't being 'watched' iyswim, but I hadn't got round to finding the 'unfollow' button.
> 
> I'd thought earlier that this 'man whispering' tern was just about the kind of ego-massaging that gets done when women are sharing experiences and a man starts taking it personally - as opposed to when there is a need to find an immediate way around that stomach-knotting threat of imminent violence (my stomach certainly knotted up reading some of this).
> 
> ...




This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.

I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.

Apols for posting with our reading.

Looks like I'm homeless as of tonight.


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## Baronage-Phase (Jun 28, 2019)

Can this thread be moved to a private area?

aqua editor FridgeMagnet


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## Baronage-Phase (Jun 28, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.
> 
> I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.
> 
> ...





Oh fuck...this is awful 

((((((SheilaNaGig ))))))


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## Clair De Lune (Jun 28, 2019)

trashpony said:


> That's a very good tip. If I had done that, I wouldn't have been raped the last time I was. It was just too easy for him to push my knickers to one side (and I'm sure I wasn't the first woman he raped and I bet I wasn't the last either). Makes me feel sick though - like telling women not to go out when the Yorkshire Ripper was on the loose rather than telling men to stay in


 so sorry trashy. It's horrid that we have to even think like this


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## trabuquera (Jun 28, 2019)

Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there,  about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man. 

right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do _I _feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?


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## Winot (Jun 28, 2019)

I would have done nothing and I’m a man


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## 8ball (Jun 28, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> This thread is in the public arena so I'm not posting on it.
> 
> I'm feeling watched. I feel exposed. I'm in danger and I need to stay safe.
> 
> ...



I meant ‘watched’ in terms of the posters feeling free to discuss with their words just being seen by other posters, hadn’t even considered the implications in that sense.  

Please stay safe.


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## mango5 (Jun 28, 2019)

mango5 said:


> This is the corrosive part.  Beating ourselves up because we saved mental and physical energy by having to act with fake pleasantness and unassertiveness.  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.


Worth repeating.


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

(((((SheilaNaGig ))))


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

trabuquera said:


> Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there,  about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man.
> 
> right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do _I _feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?


I would like to think that I would have gone out there all guns blazing but I probably would not have done because the threat of violence towards me and my property would have been too strong by the sounds of it.


----------



## Athos (Jun 28, 2019)

trabuquera said:


> Does staying silent and biting your lip count as man-whispering? Because I had to do some of it just this very weekend. Drunk bloke in the street outside - young, Scouse, well dressed, just spilled out of a quite upscale pub or bar. Screaming - and I do mean SCREAMING hysterically - into his phone to his gf, who wasn't there,  about why she had not taken the key to HIS flat ("like I TOLD YOU TO!!!") and gone there to await his return, but had instead gone ... somewhere else, he wasn't sure where. A full-on, verbal abuse, controlling behaviour, terrorise-your-woman tirade it was, complete with every kind of bitch/whore/youfuckingslag/etc language and every coercive control technique you've ever heard about, ("I'm going to smash your face in"/ "I'm throwing you out tomorrow"/"you have NO rights, you do what I tell you"/ "you're getting in bed with him now, aren't you, I know you, you slag" "you worthless cow" etc etc etc.) It went on for more than an hour. I was ITCHING and ACHING to throw open my window and scream abuse back at him - or perhaps give him a firmly worded reminder that women do not exist for his convenience and that he's being really unpleasant to his partner. I have 100% confidence that some DV would have followed, wherever and whenever he found her. But I was home alone. I toyed with calling the police. But I didn't do anything. Because he was drunk. Because he's just some stranger after all. Because I didn't want him to break my window. Because he's a man.
> 
> right or wrong? what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do _I _feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?



I'd have smacked him. Or at least I would have until recently, having learned from people on here that thay migh not be the best thing for the woman. Now, I'm not sure. Hate to say it, but I'd probably still have smacked him.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 28, 2019)

trabuquera said:


> what would you have done? what should I have done? Nobody got hit, it was 'just verbals', and drunk people of any gender are often unbearable, aggressive and loud. He was the one out of order. So why do _I _feel like the failure for not dealing with the situation right?


Meant to reply to this earlier. There's no right or wrong thing you should have done. I would not have intervened directly. I am afraid of aggression.

As for the final question, see my recent self-quote.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

My recent experience of this thread is causing me to feel really angry. Really angry about the horrible stories that have been shared. Really angry on behalf of the women who have suffered them and also the decent men who would not behave like that. It's fucking shit. It's a section of men who....I don't know what they are. They have no respect for other humans and they take it out on women. These men also ruin everything for the men who aren't like that.

My worst cases of sexual assault happened in my early 20s. The worst being the guy who got me in a headlock and tried to drag me into some bushes to do whatever it was he wanted to do. Thankfully I kicked him in the shins and I got away but this was in Munich when I was working in a beer garden spending my time having fun and flirty chats with the punters. After this man assaulted me, I did not want to talk to any of the men at the beer garden any more. It ruined everything. This story is nothing compared to what others have shared but it still shapes me and it still sucks.


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

And I can say "not all men" as much as I like but as a woman, I have a litany of sexual assault throughout my entire life that men just do not experience. 

Let's start with the man who was pushing his erection into my backside at a gig. I couldn't believe this was happening. I must have been imagining it. I was 19.

The man at a party who would not leave the bathroom because he wanted to see me pee. I think I was 17 then.

The man who walked up to me in the street, grabbed me by the back of the neck and attempted to snog me. I kicked that motherfucker in the shins as well and then felt bad about "causing a scene".


----------



## Mrs Miggins (Jun 28, 2019)

I'm going to have to watch some Rupaul's Drag Race now to calm down.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 28, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Worth repeating.



Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.  
I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 28, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> I'm going to have to watch some Rupaul's Drag Race now to calm down.



I’d join you, but my spider sense tells me there won’t be many scenes of custom cars with ludicrously oversized engines exploding in dramatic fashion.


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 28, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
> I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
> I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.



I reckon it'll be worse.


----------



## Baronage-Phase (Jun 28, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I reckon it'll be worse.



I think you are right.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 28, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
> I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
> I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.



We will. My nieces and goddaughters tell me awful dreadful stuff.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 28, 2019)

trashpony said:


> That's a very good tip. If I had done that, I wouldn't have been raped the last time I was. It was just too easy for him to push my knickers to one side (and I'm sure I wasn't the first woman he raped and I bet I wasn't the last either). Makes me feel sick though - like telling women not to go out when the Yorkshire Ripper was on the loose rather than telling men to stay in



A mate of mine would travel to and fro everywhere wearing jeans and get changed when she arrived and then back into the jeans before going home. Pack the jeans in a tight little roll so they fit in her bag.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 28, 2019)

Are you safe SheilaNaGig?


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 28, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> A mate of mine would travel to and fro everywhere wearing jeans and get changed when she arrived and then back into the jeans before going home. Pack the jeans in a tight little roll so they fit in her bag.



Ha! I used to do that too. It was a good trick. Then I fucked off the "nice clothes" (for men) altogether and just went out in jeans. And 8f they had a dress code? You don't get my money or I just never showed up. An all round better experience. Fuck dress codes. They are only there to make women uncomfortable.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 28, 2019)

Manter said:


> I’ve been attacked (Both sexually and hit) by men I don’t know. But never by a man that was a friend or partner, or I would have to see again.



I was seeing a fella, it all went south. Broke up with him, he pursued me into an alley, backed me into a derelict doorway. Trapped. I stared him down. Terrified. Heart rolling like the sea inside me. He went to rip my clothes open, I put my back against the door and got my claws out. Thought "Not his face, I'll blind him" so dropped to his neck and shoulders, raked him bloody with my fingernails. He took my hand and bit me to the bone. I stared at him, just stared and stared as the sweat broke out for the pain. He had his knees and thighs pressed against me so I had to creep up backwards with my heels up on the door behind me. I knew I had to hold on or he'd have me. He blinked first. Thank God. I ran. I ran to the next street and found people. He stalked me after that. Found out later I was "the only girlfriend be never battered". Such an honour...


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 28, 2019)

trashpony said:


> Are you safe SheilaNaGig?



Yes.
X


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

Athos said:


> I'd have smacked him. Or at least I would have until recently, having learned from people on here that thay migh not be the best thing for the woman. Now, I'm not sure. Hate to say it, but I'd probably still have smacked him.



It doesn't help.

Who do you think cops it when he's recovered from the shock? How does he rebuild his sense of power, d'you reckon?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Yes.
> X



I'm physically safe. Staying with friends. But I think this has broken me. He's thrown me out the house. My house. The house I'm selling so I can be free of him.


----------



## JudithB (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I was seeing a fella, it all went south. Broke up with him, he pursued me into an alley, backed me into a derelict doorway. Trapped. I stared him down. Terrified. Heart rolling like the sea inside me. He went to rip my clothes open, I put my back against the door and got my claws out. Thought "Not his face, I'll blind him" so dropped to his neck and shoulders, raked him bloody with my fingernails. He took my hand and bit me to the bone. I stared at him, just stared and stared as the sweat broke out for the pain. He had his knees and thighs pressed against me so I had to creep up backwards with my heels up on the door behind me. I knew I had to hold on or he'd have me. He blinked first. Thank God. I ran. I ran to the next street and found people. He stalked me after that. Found out later I was "the only girlfriend be never battered". Such an honour...


Oh Sheila I am sorry to read this. Have you reported him to the police? Do you have burly friends who could evict him and allow  you time to change the locks? 

You may not be ready for solutions yet. But we are all here when you are. 

Courage mon brave


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## weepiper (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig I'm so sorry to read this. I hope you have good people around you who can help xx


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> I'm physically safe. Staying with friends. But I think this has broken me. He's thrown me out the house. My house. The house I'm selling so I can be free of him.


This is still going on? Oh Sheila I'm so sorry.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 29, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
> I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
> I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.


Nope, no, read the _tiny _collection of stories about women from teens to late middle age on this thread, and guess again.

Please try not to minimise this as a set of unusual circumstances.


----------



## weepiper (Jun 29, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
> I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
> I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.


I'm afraid you're kidding yourself.

Girl catcalled when she was 11 launches bid to make it illegal | Metro News


----------



## weepiper (Jun 29, 2019)

From my own experience, I have a fifteen year old daughter, and some of the stuff she's had directed at her (and her female friends) by boys at school would make your hair curl.


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## Glitter (Jun 29, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.
> I *think* most of the women’s stories here are coming from posters around my age group. Ish.
> I really hope in 20 years we don’t have another cohort recounting a batch of similar stories.



I bet you twenty million pounds that we do.


----------



## Athos (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It doesn't help.
> 
> Who do you think cops it when he's recovered from the shock? How does he rebuild his sense of power, d'you reckon?



I know, which is why I hope I'd do the right thing.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

JudithB said:


> Oh Sheila I am sorry to read this. Have you reported him to the police? Do you have burly friends who could evict him and allow  you time to change the locks?
> 
> You may not be ready for solutions yet. But we are all here when you are.
> 
> Courage mon brave




Thank you. But this story was from years and years ago! 

The stuff I'm currently struggling with is far more insidious and nasty. The law can't help, I've tried that.

I can't say more in a public forum.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

Mrs Miggins said:


> This is still going on? Oh Sheila I'm so sorry.



It's coming to an end at last. But it's very very very unpleasant.


----------



## JudithB (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Thank you. But this story was from years and years ago!
> 
> The stuff I'm currently struggling with is far more insidious and nasty. The law can't help, I've tried that.
> 
> I can't say more in a public forum.


Appreciated and respected. If you ever need some contacts who might be able to help feel free to dm me


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## Mrs Miggins (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It's coming to an end at last. But it's very very very unpleasant.


I hope it comes to an end soon x


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## purenarcotic (Jun 29, 2019)

Huge hugs Sheila. I’m so sorry. Xx


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

Does anyone know what the law says about him locking the door against me without an injunction or occupation order? Can I ask the police to help me gain access?


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## purenarcotic (Jun 29, 2019)

Yes. If there’s no order in place and you’re on the deeds etc then you have the right to enter.


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## Winot (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Does anyone know what the law says about him locking the door against me without an injunction or occupation order? Can I ask the police to help me gain access?



Cannot be legal if you are co-owner. I would call the police. 

Athos


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## Winot (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Does anyone know what the law says about him locking the door against me without an injunction or occupation order? Can I ask the police to help me gain access?



How do you feel about reporting the physical abuse at the same time? Won’t the police have a record of your complaint from the last time?

Sounds like it’s the end game and he is getting desperate. I’m concerned for your safety.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

Thanks, that's as I thought.

I can't say more. This is public.


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## SheilaNaGig (Jun 29, 2019)

I might take this to my old thread, the first one. Might round it off nicely...


----------



## Athos (Jun 29, 2019)

Winot said:


> Cannot be legal if you are co-owner. I would call the police.
> 
> Athos



No, it's not legal.  I'd call the police, explain what's happened (and the long history) and them to attend the property as you reenter, to guarantee your safety.  They might try to fob you off with the idea that it's a civil matter, so you'd have to really stress the real risk if significant physical harm, and escalate it to someone more serious/ ask for a DV specialist if they don't take or seriously.  That's what I'd do, from a lethal perspective, but I suspect purenarcotic is the best person to offer practical advice on this.


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## purenarcotic (Jun 29, 2019)

You may find that due to lack of resources the police will be unwilling to act as an escort - we’ve seen a big decrease in them doing this so women can collect belongings for example. 

It may be best to ask friends to go with you and then call 999 if he kicks off as they’re more likely to attend.


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## 8ball (Jun 29, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Nope, no, read the _tiny _collection of stories about women from teens to late middle age on this thread, and guess again.
> 
> Please try not to minimise this as a set of unusual circumstances.



I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’.  I was just hoping things *get* better.

I had in mind those stories from posters talking about 20-30+ years of adult life filled with awful experiences, but yeah, with some of these stories from younger women and girls it does seem like a forlorn hope.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 29, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> It's coming to an end at last. But it's very very very unpleasant.



Hoping this part of it goes quickly and smoothly and that you are soon safely living somewhere you feel secure.

I don’t know where you are in the world, but if you need anyone there while getting his stuff out of the house, please speak up.

I’ve been involved supporting someone in the past and on that occasion I think the presence of a friend there of each gender helped quell a few possibilities for reaction and manipulation.


----------



## trashpony (Jun 29, 2019)

8ball said:


> I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’.  I was just hoping things *get* better.
> 
> I had in mind those stories from posters talking about 20-30+ years of adult life filled with awful experiences, but yeah, with some of these stories from younger women and girls it does seem like a forlorn hope.


There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jun 29, 2019)

Universal porn and Tinder culture is a horrible combination.


trashpony said:


> There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 29, 2019)

8ball said:


> Or that on one occasion you just ran out of that physical and mental energy.


No. I was describing the corrosive and relentless self-silencing and subsequent self-blaming for being quiet that many women have described. None of the examples are one-off experiences. 


8ball said:


> I can’t think where you could have got the idea that I was trying to minimise anything as unusual or a ‘fluke contemporary occurrence’


Your first sentence as quoted for your convenience. Not my misreading.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 29, 2019)

trashpony said:


> There was a blog post from a young woman I read the other day which annoying I can’t find at the moment. She was talking about the effect of porn on some of her ex boyfriends. It was really foul.



Fair point - I hadn’t considered the changes in porn availability/culture when I said that.


----------



## JudithB (Jun 29, 2019)

I worry about porn and young men. I know they are looking at it. I worry the older ones are showing the younger one. It is much more than finding a tit mag under a dodgy mattress in the woods. It's on their phones, it's in their bedrooms. It's 24/7

I do wonder if it affecting older men too. Misogyny is rife. The backlash to feminism is much bigger than I ever anticipated. I cannot help but think there is a connection.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 29, 2019)

I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic, with no subtlety of 'what kinds' are toxic and no clear path away from toxicity, risks (and is) creating a kind of bunker mentality.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 29, 2019)

Also I believe, convincing a growing number of boys that they just don't want to be boys any more...


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Also I believe, convincing a growing number of boys that they just don't want to be boys any more...



Can you expand on this point please? Are you saying that boys hearing that masculinity is 'toxic' is making them not want to be boys as opposed to them experiencing how 'toxic' masculinity can be and rejecting it?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jun 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic,



is anyone genuinely saying that?

yes, there is a concept of 'toxic masculinity' - from where i'm sitting it comes across more as a message that you don't have to be an emotionally illiterate, violent, sexist dickhead to be a man...


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 29, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Can you expand on this point please?



I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 29, 2019)

Or not. Either way.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.



Shame, I think it's an interesting point and worthy of discussion. Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?


----------



## mango5 (Jun 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I'd rather not. Better if it sparks argument as it is, blunt.


Did you mean to post this on the man-whispering thread? Seems more pertinent to the male experiences of patriarchy thread. You give the impression that masculinity is under seige and this requires an argument with women.


----------



## Combustible (Jun 29, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I think boys hearing frequently that masculinity is toxic, with no subtlety of 'what kinds' are toxic and no clear path away from toxicity, risks (and is) creating a kind of bunker mentality.


Do most boys hear that frequently? I was under the impression that talk of toxic masculinity was still relatively niche. At least to the extent that it won't have a significant effect on most boys, unless they seek out particular (pro or anti) feminist sources


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 30, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?



Yeah, tragic. Sadly experience tells me such a response has nothing to do with how articulately a point is expanded.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 30, 2019)

mango5 said:


> Did you mean to post this on the man-whispering thread? Seems more pertinent to the male experiences of patriarchy thread.



I knew where I was posting. My reply was a direct one to the post above it.

Threads do sometimes get conflated in my head, but to be fair there are often several similar threads which get a bit mixed up. Plus occasional digressions.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 30, 2019)

Perhaps more accurately, aspects of traditional/whatever masculinity are under attack (rightly perhaps), but those aspects are couched in vague terms - toxic masculinity (what the fuck does that mean? Ask 10 random men in Bolton, or Kidderminster, or Plymouth and you'll get 9 blank looks) - or in quasi-academic terms, like Patriarchy, and very little of the subject is accessible to anyone who either doesn't understand those terms through academic/professional study, or with the inclination and ability to research those terms.

Toxic masculinity is a shit phrase - it neither actually makes clear what the problems are, and allows the interpretation that masculinity itself is toxic - hence the potential for seige mentality and the backlash.

By deliberately using quasi-academic/scientific terms and arguments in an effort to sound academic and scientific - and therefore right - you exclude 90% of the men, and women, who you need to persuade.

Foot, meet shotgun.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> Yeah, tragic. Sadly experience tells me such a response has nothing to do with how articulately a point is expanded.


I think you are being unfair here. You have posted something that could make for an interesting discussion but are also refusing to clarify by inferring it will lead to arguments because 'experience' has told you it will. Right. 

I think mango5  's question is a good one. Why post it here and not on the 'male experiences of patriarchy' thread? 

Toxic masculinity is a product of patriarchy, not feminism after all.


----------



## mango5 (Jun 30, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> I knew where I was posting. My reply was a direct one to the post above it.
> 
> Threads do sometimes get conflated in my head, but to be fair there are often several similar threads which get a bit mixed up. Plus occasional digressions.


OK, I agree that much of the discussion across the threads is entangled.
I don't see the link between your post and the preceeding one though. Just seems like a wind-up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2019)

It does read as if 'feminism' is being blamed for a 'bunker mentality' and for making 'boys not want to be boys' anymore. That's the only follow on response to the post above I can see.


----------



## kebabking (Jun 30, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> It does read as if 'feminism' is being blamed for a 'bunker mentality' and for making 'boys not want to be boys' anymore. That's the only follow on response to the post above I can see.



Only if you either can't read, or - as here..



Rutita1 said:


> Shame, I think it's an interesting point and worthy of discussion. Be unfortunate if people have to imagine what you mean/t and get it wrong wouldn't it?



quite deliberately seek to missinterpret what someone says.

Feminism isn't responsible for a backlash against Feminism or a siege mentality with Masculinity, toxic or not, but it is responsible for a poor choice of language that either mystifies, bores, or provokes hostility within its target audience.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2019)

Right.  So feminism is to blame after all which is exactly what it appeared was being posted. 

Oh and get stuffed with your accusations of misreading and  deliberate misinterpreting. I specifically asked for clarification.
​


----------



## mojo pixy (Jun 30, 2019)

Feminism is not to blame for any kind of masculinity. But behaviour we all know is just toxic behaviour is being touted quite widely these days as toxic masculinity. Where's toxic femininity? Nowhere. So what are boys to make of this, and how might feeling ''toxic'' (in a way girls apparently are not meant to feel) affect how they behave towards girls?

I think that's about all the expansion I'l be giving, and only so that discussion doesn't focus on ''what mojo pixy  meant'' because what I meant means fuck all, this is a box with a small ceiling. Outside there's a world of girls and boys learning about each other.


----------



## 8ball (Jun 30, 2019)

I’ve seen ‘toxic femininity’ discussed in a couple of places, and it seems to form two very distinct strands, one strand of which gets discussed on here and the other not so much.

There are also occasional discussions about “non-toxic masculinity”.  That might be one for the “male experiences of patriarchy”, or maybe its own thread.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jun 30, 2019)

_


mojo pixy said:



			Feminism is not to blame for any kind of masculinity. But behaviour we all know is just toxic behaviour is being touted quite widely these days as toxic masculinity. Where's toxic femininity? Nowhere. So what are boys to make of this, and how might feeling ''toxic'' (in a way girls apparently are not meant to feel) affect how they behave towards girls?
		
Click to expand...


Stop behaving like a girl/bitch/sissy.
You big girl's blouse.
Fishwife.
Nag.
Hysterical harridan.
Etc.
Etc.
Etc.
Women traditionally treated as the possession of men.
Traditionally female work being less valued.
Women treated as inferior because of their biological sex._

Nowhere?
Misogyny no longer exists?
What?

Girls are taught pretty much from childhood that they are inferior to boys/males. That they are less capable and less valued. Their femininity is used to undermine and oppress them. It is treated like an affliction that they should be ashamed of unless it is in the service of men. That is why boys learn from a young age to hate and abuse women...Not because the _feminist struggle_ has sought to change this and has named certain behaviour _'toxic masculinity' _surely_?_


----------



## Santino (Jul 1, 2019)

Let's talk about toxic blackness.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 1, 2019)

toxic everything, everywhere, all the time. vast islands of rubbish in the oceans. as without, so within.

and empathy? why the fuck should i, right?

anyway. enough toxic blah. sorries all round.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jul 1, 2019)

Have you seen this mojo pixy ?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Jul 1, 2019)

Or are you talking about .... Actually, what *are* you talking about? What do you mean by toxic femininity? Is it something specific and definitive in your opinion,  or is it just a defensive response to this discussion?

Is it another version of "what about the menz?" Or what is it?


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 1, 2019)

I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows. When we know that some women can be abusive, cruel and extremely toxic. But from what I understand, the term toxic masculinity refers to the ways in which men are bullied by our society into a very narrow definition of manhood. How that bullying and the results, hurts men greatly and that some of those men go on to hurt women, plenty hurt each other and some hurt themselves. 
I don't ever use that term when talking to young men, yet we still manage to have conversations about the difficulties of growing up as a boy with all of the emotions, expectations, pressures. These young men often already realise how they are being done over, but don't tend to notice till later, how their sisters are too. ( and this is true vice versa- girls see their brothers being prized over them in certain ways, treated differently, but not how they are being hurt by their training/bullying)


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows. When we know that some women can be abusive, cruel and extremely toxic. But from what I understand, the term toxic masculinity refers to the ways in which men are bullied by our society into a very narrow definition of manhood. How that bullying and the results, hurts men greatly and that some of those men go on to hurt women, plenty hurt each other and some hurt themselves.
> I don't ever use that term when talking to young men, yet we still manage to have conversations about the difficulties of growing up as a boy with all of the emotions, expectations, pressures. These young men often already realise how they are being done over, but don't tend to notice till later, how their sisters are too. ( and this is true vice versa- girls see their brothers being prized over them in certain ways, treated differently, but not how they are being hurt by their training/bullying)


I think you’re very tolerant. Toxic masculinity doesn’t mean all masculinity is toxic any more than heavy rain means that all rain is heavy, brown dog means all dogs are brown, wet weekend means all weekends are wet. 

It’s an adjective and a noun. I think (some) men choose to misrepresent it as some sort of universal slur and barrier to social progress in order to shut the conversation down.


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## Clair De Lune (Jul 1, 2019)

I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?' 
We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 1, 2019)

This is rubbish. It's pure whataboutery again. It's exactly the same argument as was had on page 1, about the inability to distinguish between patriarchy being criticised and men being criticised.

*e2a p1 of another thread actually I think but anyway.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
> We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society


Pls reread thread title and tell me this is not what you are doing.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> This is rubbish. It's pure whataboutery again. It's exactly the same argument as was had on page 1, about the inability to distinguish between patriarchy being criticised and men being criticised.
> 
> *e2a p1 of another thread actually I think but anyway.


Whose inability?


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Whose inability?


Mojo pixy's.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> Mojo pixy's.


But you quoted CDL?


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I know. But some men will react to it as another attack and then it's not a useful term imo. It's hard to be open to learning when one feels attacked and when things feel unfair. When a boy is being bullied just as much by mum to be tough, when he sees that the bully boys at school seem to be most favoured by the girls and everyone tells them to man up I can understand them asking 'what about toxic femininity?'
> We wouldn't have such a high male suicide rate if men weren't also being deeply hurt by our society


When do we stop giving ground? When do we stop moderating, stepping back, not calling stuff out, dancing round stuff so we don’t offend men? *This* is man whispering. 

And I’m afraid I think turning all this stuff back on women is toxic


----------



## chilango (Jul 1, 2019)

I'm not sure that "toxic masculinity" is a concept only being deployed by women at all.

So criticism of it, or its effects, is not automatically "turning stuff back on women". 

Though of course, it will also be used that way.


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

chilango said:


> I'm not sure that "toxic masculinity" is a concept only being deployed by women at all.
> 
> So criticism of it, or its effects, is not automatically "turning stuff back on women".
> 
> Though of course, it will also be used that way.


Not toxic masculinity per se, the discussion in the posts above about toxic femininity


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 1, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> Pls reread thread title and tell me this is not what you are doing.


Yeah I take your point. I suppose in this instance I feel a little man whispering/ a gentler explanation can serve us all.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I can understand how the term toxic masculinity would wind people up, because it does sound like it's saying all men are toxic but not us fair maidens oh no, we're lovely, coated in sprinkles and rainbows.



The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.

What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.

It doesn't sound like _all_ men are toxic at all. It doesn't sound like we are saying girls and women are fair maidens in opposition either. It also doesn't erase the very fact that women need this language as part of and to characterise the struggle against patriarchy and it's ongoing oppression of women and 'ruining' of boys/men.

I can understand that when working with young people such terminology would be the poorer choice over explaining/talking through certain behaviours in terms of why and how etc...but this conversation and thread has done that already with the men of urban reading it over and over again.

mojo pixy and anyone else who wants to can start a thread in which they talk about 'toxic femininity', explore it, share experiences etc...I would have some points to make too btw.


----------



## chilango (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> Not toxic masculinity per se, the discussion in the posts above about toxic femininity



Fair enough, it was more of a general musing.


----------



## trashpony (Jul 1, 2019)

This weekend I went camping with my son. We were putting up our awning and the man in the next caravan came over and asked if we needed help, I said no, we were fine and he went away.

He approached twice more and both times I was polite but I made it fairly clear I didn’t want to have a long chat.

Later we were sitting outside and he rummaged in his van and brought over a toy and gave it to my son, grabbed at my dog, and talked at me for 20 minutes. He was totally in our space, standing right next to me and my dog was under the table at my feel

I didn’t want to talk to him and I made that clear. He told me very early on though that he was an ex-Marine so I just had to sit there and hope he eventually went away which he did. After the toy, my son went back in the van and wouldn’t come outside after that because he was worried that the bloke would come back.

So thanks, random man, for ruining our evening.


----------



## kebabking (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> When do we stop giving ground? When do we stop moderating, stepping back, not calling stuff out, dancing round stuff so we don’t offend men? *This* is man whispering.



No, calling out specific, actionable behaviours isn't giving ground or man whispering, it's helpful and constructive. Using phrases or words that are either mystifying or put your target audiences backs up so they refuse to engage - or, as seen here, provide a hostage to fortune in the shape of the whataboutary of _toxic femininity _to those who are intrinsically hostile, is just stupid politics.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 1, 2019)

kebabking said:


> No, calling out specific, actionable behaviours isn't giving ground or man whispering, it's helpful and constructive. Using phrases or words that are either mystifying or put your target audiences backs up - or, as seen here, provide a hostage to fortune in the shape of the whataboutary of _toxic femininity _to those who are intrinsically hostile, is just stupid politics.



What would you suggest as an alternative? Because I'd say those responses are coming anyway and they're not just a response to the phrase. It's not as if these debates are lacking in whataboutery until toxic masculinity is mentioned is it?


----------



## Winot (Jul 1, 2019)

Maybe the tendency for individual men to see themselves as grouped with ‘all men’ is itself a result of the patriarchy - a fear of being on the outside of the group.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.
> 
> What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.
> 
> ...


I agree with all of that. I suppose I'm thinking that in real life, with the kinds of men and boys I meet and know the term would shut down conversation not open it up.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> I agree with all of that. I suppose I'm thinking that in real life, with the kinds of men and boys I meet and know the term would shut down conversation not open it up.



Yes, and I absolutely understand that and agree with using any method that is appropriate to speak about these things where possible.

Urban is real life however and these issues are being talked about using a variety of different ways too. The fact is that some men here are choosing to focus on the bits they don't like. This terminology has been unpicked and explained repeatedly. It's still women's fault though, apparently.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2019)

I reckon toxic masculinity is a very useful and easy to understand concept - IMO a helpful way of shining light on a particular and identifiable set of behaviours. As is often the case with these things it's also sometimes used as a blanket dismissal & insult, which some people can't / choose not to see beyond. That doesn't stop it being a useful concept though.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> Maybe the tendency for individual men to see themselves as grouped with ‘all men’ is itself a result of the patriarchy - a fear of being on the outside of the group.



I think this is a good point. I was thinking of posting something on the 'male experiences of patriarchy' thread about how powerful that desire to fit in is. When you look at the ways people were talking about being policed into line, while you obviously do get some extreme examples, a lot of it is actually quite mild, but still very effective. From one point of view we should all be able to shrug off a few negative comments but I think the point is they're enough to make it clear that you're risking being on the outside and that's definitely a bad place to be.


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> What would you suggest as an alternative? Because I'd say those responses are coming anyway and they're not just a response to the phrase. It's not as if these debates are lacking in whataboutery until toxic masculinity is mentioned is it?


I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?


----------



## kabbes (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?


Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here?  I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the response


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 1, 2019)

RubyToogood said:


> Mojo pixy's.



Ah stop that. Get out of my head, you're in no position to judge what I do / don't understand based on the blunt way I've chosen to express a point. Feel free to talk about my words, leave 'my understanding' out of it.

Last post here because I don't have the time or mental energy.


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## kebabking (Jul 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> Maybe the tendency for individual men to see themselves as grouped with ‘all men’ is itself a result of the patriarchy - a fear of being on the outside of the group.



Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2019)

no-one says 'all men' though.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?



You need to calm down and actually read what Winot wrote.


----------



## kalidarkone (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?


Do you mean kebabking ?


----------



## kebabking (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You need to calm down and actually read what Winot wrote.



Oh, sweet irony...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> anyone else who wants to can start a thread in which they talk about 'toxic femininity', explore it, share experiences etc...I would have some points to make too btw.


Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

kabbes said:


> Sorry— can you just remind me of the context in which you’ve tagged me in here?  I can’t remember what I said that would have prompted the response



Miss-tag because I’m an idiot


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

kalidarkone said:


> Do you mean kebabking ?


Bollocks yes I do. Sorry kabbes and kebabking. 

Random people to get confused! In my defence (!) my small woke me up at 2am and I spent the rest of the night in his bed with a snoring cat while he luxuriated in my bed with his dad. I don’t do well on sleep deprivation


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...




Why do I have to do it?  I already started this one and some people are coming onto it to wanting to talk about 'toxic femininity'. 

Having points I could make doesn't mean it needs to be me does it? Clearly others here have points to make too.


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Why don't you start it? I think it would be better started by a woman, and if you already have points to make...


I’ve started it


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Why do I have to do it?  I already started this one and some people are coming onto it to wanting to talk about 'toxic femininity'.
> 
> Having points I could make doesn't mean it needs to be me does it? Clearly others here have points to make too.


Jesus FC, it was only a suggestion, not an edict


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Jesus FC, it was only a suggestion, not an edict


 Seriously cock off with this nonsense. Why didn't you start it? Why do women have to do all the fucking work on these subjects and still get condescended to and ridiculed?   Pathetic.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?



Our U.S. cousins seem to like the term "douchebaggery".  
Not sure about a British equivalent...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 1, 2019)

8ball said:


> Our U.S. cousins seem to like the term "douchebaggery".
> Not sure about a British equivalent...


Fuckwittery


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> Fuckwittery



A bit too broadly applicable, I think.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> no-one says 'all men' though.



This is true, but ''not all men'' has become a term of derision. I know there is a difference but in the heat of the moment that distinction can easily be missed.

Fuck it, I broke. And this thread is not meant to be about men, sorry for my part in this derail.

FTR I for one know all about man-whispering, woman-whispering and in fact I've had specialist training in de-escalation and ''managing challenging behaviour''. That was for work but I've found it amazingly useful in everyday life anyway .. for dealing with those who can't help it, but also for dealing with those who arguably can help it but choose not to.

(EtA, I should mention, this training did come along with some light disengage / self-defence moves eg how to get your arm out of someone's hand even when they're a lot stronger. Which is probably essential because 'no plan survives contact with the enemy'.

Anyway, pro tip, twist the held arm firmly in the direction their thumb is ponting, as you pull away)

Right, I'm back to reading.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2019)

mojo pixy said:


> This is true, but ''not all men'' has become a term of derision. I know there is a difference but in the heat of the moment that distinction can easily be missed.


It's a term of derision due to the way many men's immediate response to any discussion on behaviours that are common in men is to raise exceptions to those common behaviours, rather than engage with the meat of the criticism. It's maybe not always the most helpful of phrases, but again - it describes a very common and identifiable pattern of behaviour that is reasonable to challenge. These threads are thick with it. They always are.


----------



## chilango (Jul 1, 2019)

killer b said:


> It's a term of derision due to the way many men's immediate response to any discussion on behaviours that are common in men is to raise exceptions to those common behaviours, rather than engage with the meat of the criticism. It's maybe not always the most helpful of phrases, but again - it describes a very common and identifiable pattern of behaviour that is reasonable to challenge. These threads are thick with it. They always are.



Well if course.

But (putting it crudely) saying "men do X" is going to get that sort of response from men who don't do X.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2019)

Sometimes, perhaps - although I'd encourage men who don't do X not to get all defensive when women - sometimes imprecisely - criticise men who do X: they aren't criticising you! But tbh I think it's often a reaction caused by the discomfort that comes from someone describing behaviour that actually, you _do_ do.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Seriously cock off with this nonsense. Why didn't you start it? Why do women have to do all the fucking work on these subjects and still get condescended to and ridiculed?   Pathetic.


Textbook.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Jul 1, 2019)

Manter said:


> I think this is exactly my issue kabbes. What words can women (and men, but the reaction seems to me to be when women use them) use that everyone is OK with while calling out a set of behaviours that are intrinsic to the worst of the masculine within the patriarchy? Without writing a heavily caveated paragraph each time?


This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.


----------



## Winot (Jul 1, 2019)

kebabking said:


> Bollocks. If I wrote 'all women' do you think the offence caused would be a result of some horrific mix of individual women saying 'well that's not me' and a their alleged need to be part of some monolithic 'sisterhood', or just that I was obviously talking tripe?



I wasn't referring to someone literally using the term 'all men'. I mean that fear of being on the outside of a group (the group of men) means that when a sub-set of that group is criticised it is harder to notionally step outside and think "well that's not me and it's OK for me to criticise too". Instead herd instinct takes over and defences go up ("I'm not safe outside the group I'd better stay inside with the big boys").


----------



## Manter (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.


I guess where I was going is what are we allowed to use that doesn’t upset? And at what point do we get to have the ‘that thing that upset you? Can we talk about how we change it now, rather than your feelings please?’ Conversation. For (some) men it’s used to shut the conversation down not to have the conversation in a slightly different way. The latter I could go with!


----------



## kebabking (Jul 1, 2019)

Winot said:


> I wasn't referring to someone literally using the term 'all men'. I mean that fear of being on the outside of a group (the group of men) means that when a sub-set of that group is criticised it is harder to notionally step outside and think "well that's not me and it's OK for me to criticise too". Instead herd instinct takes over and defences go up ("I'm not safe outside the group I'd better stay inside with the big boys").



why do you think men - as in an individual man - have a fear of being outside 'the group of men'?

i simply see no basis for this idea that men - and i am one, and i work with lots of others, so give me credit for having _some_ insight into how i and my social/work circle behave - have this herd instinct/feeling you seem to be suggesting that we do. i, for example, don't see my masculinity (or maleness, or whetever) as having any connection with, or based on similar things to, the drunk Scouser we heard about earlier in the thread who was screaming dogs abuse down the phone at his girlfriend.

masculinity is, from my observation - and i assume rather like femininity - a sweetshop-like selection and spectrum of behaviours and attitudes, some of which are somewhat less desirable than others, and if a number of those behaviours/attitudes are found in one individual they can produce a toxic mix, particularly when matched with other undesirable, but not neccessarily gendered behaviours. i may have got the characteristics of _my_ masculinity from the same sweetshop as that drunk scouser, but i obviously didn't get the same selection, and i have no more emotional/familial/whatever link with either him, or anyone else who's been to that sweetshop, than i have to the people i didn't recognise walking out of the sweetshop that i drove past this morning.

there is no, for me at least, _brotherhood_ of men from which i draw some comfort or which - materially or internally through expectation - governs my behaviour.


----------



## Winot (Jul 1, 2019)

Good for you.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Textbook.


Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> This issue has come up in other threads too (trans related) sometimes we have to compromise and use other people's preferred words (example - gc feminist) in order to further conversation and not get peoples backs up. It doesn't mean other terms were intended to get people's backs up but once we know they do we compromise to aid communication. I'm not suggesting people shouldn't use 'toxic masculinity' btw just describing why I won't be anymore.



Sometimes new terms break out of their original confines and get plastered everywhere, then it's hard to get them back in the box.  Rather like 'terf' which had a very specific meaning not too long ago.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.


Textbook dishonesty.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Yes your manipulations are textbook. There will always be one more thing. The threads won't be good enough, the language won't be good enough, you'll keep telling us we are wrong and expect us to make new threads and use words that you like and when we get bored and frustrated and refuse, you do this and imply it's evidence of you be right all along. It will never be enough.



TBH This could be redirected back at the feminist content on various current threads


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Textbook dishonesty.


Textbook projection.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2019)

trashpony said:


> I’m in a camping group on Facebook which I don’t post in but they’ve kicked loads of blokes out for harassing women. And turn down about 50% of blokes who want to join because it looks like they only want to join because they want to harass women.
> 
> I am in awe of how many women go up hills and camp on their own or with their kids.


Coming to this late, but I think I know which group you mean. And what is quite breathtaking has been the hostility and anger from some group members at this policing. Real hot'n'angry outrage at it. And all the usual "so does that mean women can't PM men in the group, too?" bullshit.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> The thing is that toxic masculinity refers to a particular kind of macho, bullying, entitled posturing that also affects men and boys themselves.
> 
> What's been suggested here is that simply having a name for it stigmatises boys so much they no longer want to be boys. I think that's bullshit.
> 
> It doesn't sound like _all_ men are toxic at all.


It sounds exactly like all _masculine_ men are toxic. That may not be how you mean it but that's exactly how it sounds.


----------



## 8ball (Jul 1, 2019)

existentialist said:


> Coming to this late, but I think I know which group you mean. And what is quite breathtaking has been the hostility and anger from some group members at this policing. Real hot'n'angry outrage at it. And all the usual "so does that mean women can't PM men in the group, too?" bullshit.



Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook.  
I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jul 1, 2019)

8ball said:


> Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook.
> I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.


You'd think so, wouldn't you. But campers are some of the worst people on the planet. The epitome of 'toxic masculinity'. They're the kind of people who (think they) know everything, from the best gas to use for the best camping stove, to how you're not putting your tent up properly, and they can't wait to tell you. Their whole life seems to revolve around reading camping magazines, and regurgitating the contents to like-minded individuals, and god help you if you're not sufficiently clued up on the latest and greatest spork!


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> Textbook projection.


Except it's not. You attributed to me directly things I did not say and insisted I demanded things of you I did not. It's dishonest, and very much in line with SOP of Twitter etc, designed purposely to keep you simultaneously in control of all discourse yet the victim of whatever you decide.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2019)

8ball said:


> Ugh, think I must have been hanging around the nicer corners of Facebook.
> I'd have thought camping would be a pretty subject area for people who enjoy a soggy, depressing weekend in a field, then a lovely hot bath after.


Well, I wasn't aware of it going on until the mods started posting about flinging people out of the group. I think most of it was pretty covert, dark murky corners type stuff. But if it wasn't, a lot more people are now aware and watching out for it. It was also interesting that the mods were pushing hard against the idea of retaliatory activity - "name and shame 'em, and we'll C&P the posts to their partners" type stuff. It was done as well as could be hoped for, I think.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> Except it's not. You attributed to me directly things I did not say and insisted I demanded things of you I did not. It's dishonest, and very much in line with SOP of Twitter etc, _designed purposely to keep you simultaneously in control of all discourse yet the victim of whatever you decide._



 Oh get over yourself...you are on every single one of these threads pretty much telling us that we are doing it wrong and supporting attempts to undermine them whilst simultaneously moaning you don't feel you can get involved with the discussion because we are going about it too robustly for your sensitivities, and because shhhhhhhh you can't say the things you want to say in public.

You are wanting us to start all the new threads, find language that doesn't upset you, frame and reframe our opinions and experiences to suit you, explain ourselves over and over again and it's still not enough. You are the one claiming victimhood. You shift the goalposts all the time and still can't seem to spend a second to realise just how controlling and manipulative that is.

But hey, blame me anyway.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 1, 2019)

Rutita1 said:


> You are wanting us to start all the new threads


TBF, I think it was just the one thread he was suggesting you start, but there I go again with my mansplaining...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Jul 1, 2019)

That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.

ETA Rutita1


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

existentialist said:


> TBF, I think it was just the one thread he was suggesting you start, but there I go again with my mansplaining...


It's not the first time a new thread has been 'requested' and we've been told it's better that a woman start it. So no, not mansplaining, limited knowledge.


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## Treacle Toes (Jul 1, 2019)

S☼I said:


> That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.
> 
> ETA Rutita1


I'm not telling lies though and the only consequence of challenging me and calling me a liar is that you get to continue claiming victim hood.   I also see you framing this as some kind of David and Goliath battle. Seriously over dramatic and I'm i not interested in wasting any more time pandering to it.


----------



## JudithB (Jul 1, 2019)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Have you seen this mojo pixy ?




I'd forgotten about this superb advert. Thanks for posting


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Jul 29, 2019)

Cloo said:


> See, that thing of being scared a bloke might turn on you if rejected was a thing I never got the memo about. Ditto, when I read things about how women change where they go, what they do because of fear of men is not something I ever felt, and I have wondered why. Obviously, there is the fact I have had the good fortune never to have been sexually assaulted, nor have I even been harassed much. There’s also, perhaps, that all my mates were male when I was a kid and I was very late to any kind of interest in sex (I relented and started when I was 21, more out of curiosity than anything else). I didn’t think of men as all that different to me and I generally assumed they weren’t sexually interested in me. I never thought much of it if a bloke talked to me; and if he came on to me I never thought anything of saying I wasn’t interested or I didn’t want to talk to them right now. Just did not occur to me to feel threatened and to not just tell them it wasn’t going anywhere.
> 
> This is not, of course, because ‘all women should be sensible like me and stop being neurotic’- I'm a bit weird like thatl it was my naivete, plus the fact very few men have ever come on to me (as far as I realised); and I guess I was fortunate that none of the guys I turned down ever was abusive or violent to me in response.



Can't love your post enough.

I grew up similarly to you, as an only girl in a house full of boys. Had both male and female friends all through school and it was never an issue. I was about 16 or 17 the first time I had a male friend want to keep our friendship secret because his girlfriend would be jealous, and I remember thinking how sad that was (for everyone involved) in 2003 that some people still think that way. We were in a band together and she knew about our male bandmates, so why was I different? (I managed to win her over after convincing him that lying to her would only confirm her fear that he was hiding something, and we all became good friends in the end). Of course, sometimes it's old-fashioned sexism (the "men and women can't be friends" myth), other times it could be just general insecurity and/or not trusting the person, whether that's due to their actual behaviour, or a bad experience with someone else.

I've mentioned the frustration of having bigger-than-average breasts and having random blokes talk down to you because of it, and some people, who mean well, misinterpret that as me being scared. No, I don't find it scary, I just find it fucking patronising! I mean, he wouldn't talk about his male acquaintance's dick all night because that would be weird. It makes me angry when some blokes do that, not because I'm intimidated or I think they'll try anything, but because they're treating me as unintelligent or a sex object because of my sexual organs in a way they wouldn't with a bloke. All I want is equal treatment, that's all, and I refuse to believe that the culprits can reach adulthood and not understand that "Nice tits!" IS NOT A COMPLIMENT!!! 

And don't get me started on "Oooh, ladies, don't go out at night alone if you can avoid it." Why shouldn't I? I'm an adult and a free citizen, and I can go where I want when I want. I do take precautions, like keeping my phone on me and sticking to well lit main roads, which I think is sensible for anyone; however, if someone doesn't do those things, that doesn't make it their fault if something happens. My sleeping patterns have been shot to shit recently, due to a combination of a bereavement and unbearably hot weather. Sometimes I'll wake up all hot and bothered at three in the morning (assuming I got to sleep at all) and need a walk round the block to tire myself out. Why shouldn't I do that if I feel like it?

In fact, while women are statistically at higher risk of sexual assault, I've often read that men are statistically more likely to be mugged, beaten up, stabbed, or the victim of acid attacks. Yet we don't tell men not to go out at night, do we? I believe everyone should do what they feel is safest, and that's going to vary from person to person. Ultimately, we can't truly claim the sexes are equal while society is still using the threat of sexual assault as an excuse to restrict women's movements or freedoms. This is what I believe we should be pushing back against.


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## Cloo (Jul 29, 2019)

Yes, that last bit does annoy me - I think blokes are more at risk of being in a fight or whatever than women are of being raped/assaulted, but we don't tell boys to stay inside. Because the assumption is men can, and should, look after themselves whereas women are 'vulnerable' and if they 'put themselves in harm's way' they are partially to blame for any of the consequences. 

I want to teach my kids to be careful but I don't want to say to my daughter (but not my son) 'Ooh, don't go on public transport, never go anywhere alone after dark ever' or anything like that.


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## Ann Tigonie (Aug 4, 2019)

Well I've spent virtually my whole w/e reading 2 forums. Even turned down a free festie so I could carry on! There are several other forums mentioned I intend to visit as well.

Can I just say, bravo and encore to all those women who have been playing ping pong! Your energy, patience and fortitude has been a marvel to behold. I'm exhausted just reading it all. You all deserve praise, because most of the time you've batted those balls (sic) back using reasoned argument & tried to illustrate the scale and enormity of the "problem" using some very personal anecdotes. Thanks so much for that, for being courageous enough & honest enough to open up about your various experiences of this system we live under called Patriarchy.

I get the impression that this has been Patriarchy & Consciousness-raising 101 for a lot of posters. It can be something of a shock to the system when you are first made aware of some of this stuff. Fortunately, once you've had your consciousness raised, you can't pretend - or not for long anyway - that you don't know about it. You can't crawl back under the rock as it were.

On a positive note, we are undergoing a paradigm shift, in which we are all involved, because we  now know a tiny fraction of what's been happening for far too long.

As the young 'uns say, we are now woke to this shit!

Thank you for your efforts on all our behalves.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 4, 2019)

Ann Tigonie said:


> Well I've spent virtually my whole w/e reading 2 forums. Even turned down a free festie so I could carry on! There are several other forums mentioned I intend to visit as well.


turning down a free festie! I admire your determination.


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## Ann Tigonie (Aug 4, 2019)

friendofdorothy said:


> turning down a free festie! I admire your determination.



I think your determination makes you the bees knees. And all the other contributors to these ongoing debates. You are amazing for keeping on keeping on.


----------



## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

I smashed some of my conditioning at the weekend at greenman and as a result I'm not even upset about it anymore 
I can't be bothered to relive by typing it all out again so here's a screen grab of my post from elsewhere.


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## Steel Icarus (Aug 21, 2019)

Fucking hell Clair. That's horrible. Glad you slapped the bastard.


----------



## LeytonCatLady (Aug 21, 2019)

Clair De Lune , I'm so sorry you had to deal with that jackass. I don't blame you at all defending yourself, and glad you did. What a disgusting thing for him to do to you.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

I'm so glad I slapped him  although I will be honest that him whispering in my ear things like 'why did you hit me? I didnt hit You! Youre out of order, youre crazy!' Did for a second make me question myself and wonder whether I'd overreacted  which is why I told the barman what happened..  to get a second opinion cos the gaslighting was starting to work. But I know now I was simply defending myself from a gross and uncalled for attack and I hope his fucking ears rung the next day making bands unbearable


----------



## Athos (Aug 21, 2019)

Shame you didn't launch the scalding teas at the cunt.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 21, 2019)

S☼I said:


> That is an utterly misleading and inaccurate load of old pony. I've engaged in a lot of these threads (none of which I demanded be started, and several of which JudithB proudly started). I've learned loads and acknowledged that. I've shared a fair bit of personal stuff. I've been respectful apart from a spat with Sheila which I apologised to her for by PM (which was not accepted - her prerogative). But I'm blowed if I'm going to let you tell lies, no matter what the consequence of daring to challenge you might be.
> 
> ETA Rutita1



She’ll misrepresent you to suit her agenda and attack the straw men of her own creation. It should be in the FAQ not to do this but apparently it isn’t. I think it’s her hobby or something.


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## killer b (Aug 21, 2019)

dude, that beef is almost two months old.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 21, 2019)

killer b said:


> dude, that beef is almost two months old.



Fair enough. But these tactics are ongoing.


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## killer b (Aug 21, 2019)

so challenge her in one of the recent ongoing discussions.


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## Poot (Aug 21, 2019)

Jesus Clair De Lune - it's amazing how being dressed up and in a fab mood gets misinterpreted as 'I'm fair game, grab me!' by wrong 'uns. Thank you for making one surprised punter think twice before he does it some other poor unsuspecting woman. I hope you've recovered.


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## scifisam (Aug 21, 2019)

Awesome work, Clair. Shit that you had to do it, though.

How did the gropey bastard's friends react?


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 21, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> She’ll misrepresent you to suit her agenda and attack the straw men of her own creation. It should be in the FAQ not to do this but apparently it isn’t. I think it’s her hobby or something.





Magnus McGinty said:


> Fair enough. But these tactics are ongoing.



You are shamefully desperate for attention and beef. So much so that you"ve come onto this thread to shit stir a 2 month old discussion that you had nothing to do with.

You can't stand that I don't care about your whinging attempts at beef on  other threads so here you are looking to entice others into your pointless crusade.

You are a joke and your pathetic tactics are a waste of anyone's time.

That you've tried this nonsense on this thread now and given what Clair has posted above  says a whole lot. Go away. Child.


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## Magnus McGinty (Aug 21, 2019)

I generally don’t read these threads as I got banned from the first. I took a look at the last couple of pages of this one and saw what you are up to and which you’ve been employing against me. That’s probably “PMs of support” for snidey types but I’m honest enough to raise things publicly.


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2019)

Clair De Lune glad you hit him and glad the gaslighting didn’t work and glad others stood up for you and SO FUCKING FED UP that this shit keeps happening


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## trabuquera (Aug 21, 2019)

Oh Clair De Lune - I''m really sorry this happened - totally back your reaction - and I'm simmering with anger at this end of the screen on your behalf. It just keeps getting banged home, doesn't it, again and again and again, that for (so many) men, women's bodies are just 'fair game' or 'public property' somehow. Men, at least the ones who've had to adopt toxic masculinity, might well punch other men just for _looking at them wrong _- yet even a 'cowardly, low-conflict' man might well feel entitled to have a quick grab / feel / rip / tear / flash of a woman's flesh or clothing just on a whim, for a giggle, because they just feel like it. Not looking for a fight, not assuming it's a 'high risk' thrill-seeking thing, just because they fancy a giggle or a feel, and don't expect any sort of retaliation at all. What's wrong with them? More people should react like you, and even harder. When I was in my teens & 20s I had more incidents of this kind of stuff (minus the forced public exposure) than I care to remember and often let it go, feeling too ashamed or weak or intimidated, or kidding myself I was 'too tolerant', to do anything about it. Now that I'm too old for it to be very likely any more, I know *for sure* that anyone laying hands on me in that way is going to get slapped or decked and I won't feel a millisecond of guilt about it.


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## bluescreen (Aug 21, 2019)

There's that old saying, sorry can't find original quote and maybe it's on here already, that under capitalism women are private property and under socialism they are public property.


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## Sue (Aug 21, 2019)

Ffs Clair De Lune.


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## Edie (Aug 21, 2019)

Urgh what a cunt. I wonder if men in balloon hats or at festies or alternative places are more predatory. I sense that they might be. I always felt on edge at Glastonbury green fields and Arcadia type places rather than your standard pub. Maybe it’s just a debauchery atmosphere. Sorry it happened tho. Awful.


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## Athos (Aug 21, 2019)

Edie said:


> I always felt on edge at Glastonbury green fields...


Never, ever trust a hippy. Most of them are just patchouli-scented predators.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Awesome work, Clair. Shit that you had to do it, though.
> 
> How did the gropey bastard's friends react?


They did nothing. Just looked worried and stepped back when I hit him and looked embarrassed when they had to leave.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

Edie said:


> Urgh what a cunt. I wonder if men in balloon hats or at festies or alternative places are more predatory. I sense that they might be. I always felt on edge at Glastonbury green fields and Arcadia type places rather than your standard pub. Maybe it’s just a debauchery atmosphere. Sorry it happened tho. Awful.


Tbf everyone else I met that weekend was sound as fuck. But there's always one right.


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> They did nothing. Just looked worried and stepped back when I hit him and looked embarrassed when they had to leave.


Ugh. The good guy enablers -looking embarrassed and worried rather than tanning their dodgy mate’s ass for him. Hate that shit

They couldn’t prey on us if the ‘good guys’ called that shit out


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

Manter said:


> Ugh. The good guy enablers -looking embarrassed and worried rather than tanning their dodgy mate’s ass for him. Hate that shit
> 
> They couldn’t prey on us if the ‘good guys’ called that shit out


Hopefully they gave him some shit for it after or the following day. I guess I just hope he remembered why I hit him and didn't just call me a crazy bitch n play victim. But that's probs wishful thinking.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

Oh I forgot. I did shout "you need to keep him on a fucking leash!" As they left.


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## Manter (Aug 21, 2019)

No facepalm! That’s brilliant!


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## existentialist (Aug 21, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh I forgot. I did shout "you need to keep him on a fucking leash!" As they left.


I really do think you successfully managed to properly own a really shit situation there, Clair De Lune.

Yeah, he'll probably try to save face by writing you off as some crazy, but if he's got a shred of decency on him, then that slap might just make him think "maybe I warranted that", and change can start...


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## Baronage-Phase (Aug 21, 2019)

Shit Clair De Lune that's awful. ... fair fucks to you for standing up to him. 
Hope you're ok now?


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

Thank you. I hope so. 


existentialist said:


> I really do think you successfully managed to properly own a really shit situation there, Clair De Lune.
> 
> Yeah, he'll probably try to save face by writing you off as some crazy, but if he's got a shred of decency on him, then that slap might just make him think "maybe I warranted that", and change can start...


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 21, 2019)

Lupa said:


> Shit Clair De Lune that's awful. ... fair fucks to you for standing up to him.
> Hope you're ok now?


Yes I'm ok thanks  it's small fry in the grand scheme. But I stood up for myself so as someone else said I feel 'righteous'


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## weepiper (Aug 21, 2019)

Clair De Lune I'm really sorry that happened to you. How shitty  bloody well done for how you handled it though.


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## weepiper (Aug 21, 2019)

I feel that this belongs on this thread: my summer mechanic (m, 27) having quit on the spot because he couldn't cope with me telling him (with all his 6 weeks experience) robustly but not unkindly not to argue with me (f, 41, 23 years experience and his direct superior  ) about how something should be done.


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## Treacle Toes (Aug 21, 2019)

Young or old, it rankles for some men to be challenged/disagreed with/educated by/stood up to/managed by/ignored by women. Attempts at public humiliation is a common tactic.

Some seem to feel entitled to our demured attention even when they are being abusive/negatively attention seeking...demanding we take part in our own denigration. I mean who could resist.


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## Clair De Lune (Aug 22, 2019)

weepiper said:


> I feel that this belongs on this thread: my summer mechanic (m, 27) having quit on the spot because he couldn't cope with me telling him (with all his 6 weeks experience) robustly but not unkindly not to argue with me (f, 41, 23 years experience and his direct superior  ) about how something should be done.


 laughing at him, not you - clearly. Wow fragile masculinity lost him his job. What. A. Cock.


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## kalidarkone (Aug 22, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> laughing at him, not you - clearly. Wow fragile masculinity lost him his job. What. A. Cock.



I hope he keeps getting older more experienced and say it like it is female  bosses till he learns his lesson.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 22, 2019)

Clair De Lune said:


> Oh I forgot. I did shout "you need to keep him on a fucking leash!" As they left.


That is the best bit of the story! glad you got that in.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 22, 2019)

weepiper said:


> I feel that this belongs on this thread: my summer mechanic (m, 27) having quit on the spot because he couldn't cope with me telling him (with all his 6 weeks experience) robustly but not unkindly not to argue with me (f, 41, 23 years experience and his direct superior  ) about how something should be done.


would a male mechanic have been more than 'robust' and probably not so kind if he did the same thing to a male superior?


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 23, 2019)

Toxic masculinity is a decently descriptive term for highlighting hyper-masculine behaviour. It doesn't, as some posters appear to be assuming, describe male behaviour _per se_, but rather it describes a subset of males whose behaviour is an amalgam of the worst traits - of physical and sexual aggression against others, of entitlement, of habitual self-absolution of any and every "sin", of a thorough disinclination to take responsibility for one's own harmful actions.

I speak from experience. Except for physical and sexual aggression against women, and sexual aggression against men, I was guilty of all the above behaviours when I was younger. I could try to excuse this as reaction against being violently sexually assaulted when I was 8, but the reality is I *CHOSE* to deal with my demons that way, I wasn't forced to. It was only when I realised my behaviour was killing me, that I grasped the nettle of changing it. I was also very fortunate that about a year after deciding to do so, I met someone whose love for me, and mine for her, completely changed my life.

Unless and until we, as individual males AND as a sex class, take responsibility for our behaviour, the behaviour will continue. Yes, it takes work to dilute the toxicity, but it's worth doing. That doesn't mean we become paragons of virtue, but it does mean our sisters and brothers will eventually have less to fear from males as a sex class, than they currently do.


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## editor (Aug 23, 2019)

Magnus McGinty said:


> I generally don’t read these threads as I got banned from the first. I took a look at the last couple of pages of this one and saw what you are up to and which you’ve been employing against me. That’s probably “PMs of support” for snidey types but I’m honest enough to raise things publicly.


You're banned from this thread now as it seems stirring up a spicy beef froth is your sole aim.


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## friendofdorothy (Aug 27, 2019)

ViolentPanda said:


> Toxic masculinity is a decently descriptive term for highlighting hyper-masculine behaviour. It doesn't, as some posters appear to be assuming, describe male behaviour _per se_, but rather it describes a subset of males whose behaviour is an amalgam of the worst traits - of physical and sexual aggression against others, of entitlement, of habitual self-absolution of any and every "sin", of a thorough disinclination to take responsibility for one's own harmful actions.
> 
> I speak from experience. Except for physical and sexual aggression against women, and sexual aggression against men, I was guilty of all the above behaviours when I was younger. I could try to excuse this as reaction against being violently sexually assaulted when I was 8, but the reality is I *CHOSE* to deal with my demons that way, I wasn't forced to. It was only when I realised my behaviour was killing me, that I grasped the nettle of changing it. I was also very fortunate that about a year after deciding to do so, I met someone whose love for me, and mine for her, completely changed my life.
> 
> Unless and until we, as individual males AND as a sex class, take responsibility for our behaviour, the behaviour will continue. Yes, it takes work to dilute the toxicity, but it's worth doing. That doesn't mean we become paragons of virtue, but it does mean our sisters and brothers will eventually have less to fear from males as a sex class, than they currently do.


I really appreciate this post. Thank you vp.

So many men seem unwilling to take that long hard look at their own and other men's behaviour.  Male lack of self awareness and unwillingness to listen to what female posters are saying on these feminist threads is such a barrier to these discussions.


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## scifisam (Oct 22, 2019)

Ernst and Young have been running an amazingly awful "leadership" seminar for women for a few years: HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media It's actually a guidebook to man-whispering:

Here are some of the best bits:

“Don’t flaunt your body ― sexuality scrambles the mind (for men and women).” 

"Women’s brains absorb information like pancakes soak up syrup so it’s hard for them to focus. Men’s brains are more like waffles. They’re better able to focus because the information collects in each little waffle square."

And apparently women are gullible and childlike. If you rate yourself low on those scales, but high on "willing to take a stand" and self-sufficiency then you are more masculine than feminine: 







You have to laugh or you'll cry.


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## Sue (Oct 22, 2019)

Wtf?


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## stuff_it (Oct 22, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Ernst and Young have been running an amazingly awful "leadership" seminar for women for a few years: HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media It's actually a guidebook to man-whispering:
> 
> Here are some of the best bits:
> 
> ...


If you list "at the toilet" as one of the places you should take a stand, you're more masculine than feminine...


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 22, 2019)

scifisam said:


> "Women’s brains absorb information like pancakes soak up syrup so it’s hard for them to focus.."
> .





stuff_it said:


> If you list "at the toilet" as one of the places you should take a stand, you're more masculine than feminine...



The only thing this should be used for is toilet paper. 

I expect that as toilet paper this pamphlet would have more masculine qualities. Not very absorbent. Collects shite into the folds and crevices, rather than cleaning it away, and a bit rough on the arse.


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## Poot (Oct 22, 2019)

Are the women only allowed to fill it out in crayon?


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 22, 2019)

Poot said:


> Are the women only allowed to fill it out in crayon?



no.  we have to cross-stitch the x's in.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Oct 22, 2019)

.


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## scifisam (Oct 22, 2019)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> The only thing this should be used for is toilet paper.
> 
> I expect that as toilet paper this pamphlet would have more masculine qualities. Not very absorbent Collects shite into the crevices, rather than cleaning it away, and a bit rough on the arse.



Yeah, it would be tough, because men are tough. According to that list us yielding, gentle women definitely make better toilet paper. Not sure we're supposed to be good for anything else in the workplace though.


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## scifisam (Oct 22, 2019)

Poot said:


> Are the women only allowed to fill it out in crayon?



The whole workshop is only aimed at women, so presumably they'll be expected to bring their own crayons, borrowed from the children they definitely have.


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## stuff_it (Oct 22, 2019)

If you actually read up on this scale, you'll find that everyone is meant to have both traits in equal measure. You'll also find that she had to redo a short form, without calling women gullible.


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## scifisam (Oct 22, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> If you actually read up on this scale, you'll find that everyone is meant to have both traits in equal measure. You'll also find that she had to redo a short form, without calling women gullible.



Including it in the first place was tantamount to saying "I'm replicating ancient stereotypes and other women will fall for it, hahaha!"

On my PGCE we had a seminar where we taught about appearance because apparently postgrads who've pretty much all got previous work experience don't know how to dress in the workplace. It included a section about not wearing your hair curly because it looks "messy." Men were told to wear suits and the rest was about women and none of it was useful.


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## AnnaKarpik (Oct 22, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Ernst and Young have been running an amazingly awful "leadership" seminar for women for a few years: HuffPost is now part of Verizon Media It's actually a guidebook to man-whispering:
> 
> Here are some of the best bits:
> 
> ...



Not enough facepalms in the world.


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 23, 2019)

I have no words...


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## Gimigimi (Oct 23, 2019)

stuff_it said:


> If you actually read up on this scale, you'll find that everyone is meant to have both traits in equal measure. You'll also find that she had to redo a short form, without calling women gullible.


If everyone has both traits in equal measure why assign them to genders in the first place? I doubt that it's an attempt to point out the absurdity of how society genders these traits. Seems a bit subtle for someone who felt the need to put "masculinity" as an example of a masculine trait and "femininity" as a feminine one.


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## pinkmonkey (Oct 23, 2019)

scifisam said:


> Including it in the first place was tantamount to saying "I'm replicating ancient stereotypes and other women will fall for it, hahaha!"
> 
> On my PGCE we had a seminar where we taught about appearance because apparently postgrads who've pretty much all got previous work experience don't know how to dress in the workplace. It included a section about not wearing your hair curly because it looks "messy." Men were told to wear suits and the rest was about women and none of it was useful.


Some twat on Linked In wrote this essay about how to dress, no backpacks apparently.  I did post up that I was gonna ignore that one as the health of my back and my personal safety (briefcases do not leave both hands free) were more important to me than being judged by uncreative idiots.


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