# Shankhill Road Butchers- did the British state know?



## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

Having never come across or read about this unpleasant series of brutal murders before I followed up a reference to them and onto a BBC NI documentary in which everyone other than the retired RUC man Jimmy Nesbit seemed convinced that elements of the british intelligence knew and allowed the gang to continue regardless.

How likely does that seem? Irish catholic paranoia or grounded in any truth?


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

They may have suspected who was behind them.Though either not wishing to compromise their source or evidence not usable in court
been unable or unwilling  to act.Keeping things to an acceptable level of violence was among the most cynical of UK strategies.
  Probably paranoia stoked by Brit misinformation.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

Well they all certainly knew who was directing the killings from jail, but left him alone and allowed the UVF to feed Murphy's whereabouts to the IRA upon his release. The victims families and others seemed of the opinion that those murders would never have been allowed to continue if the victims had not been catholics


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> Having never come across or read about this unpleasant series of brutal murders before I followed up a reference to them and onto a BBC NI documentary in which everyone other than the retired RUC man Jimmy Nesbit seemed convinced that elements of the british intelligence knew and allowed the gang to continue regardless.
> 
> How likely does that seem? Irish catholic paranoia or grounded in any truth?


you should read the book about the shankhill butchers by martin dillon - so long since i've read it i can't recall it in detail, but it seems to me that the ruc were interested in catching lenny murphy and his mates - more a string of loyalist crimes than crimes of collusion iirc


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

Yeah cos the Brits were so good at stopping Protestants and soldiers getting killed!As I say an acceptable level of violence.
British intelligence is either so good they knew everything and everyone ,but,didn't stop the violence for their own reasons.Or a bunch of drunken incompetents who couldn't find N Ireland on a globe.
    I don't know and I doubt anyone not connected will know the truth for a long time.
Look at the Nemesis file a book about a death squad cooked up by a drunken squaddie's  Walter Mitty tales of killing in North Ireland.Which far too many on both sides took as possibly true.As its the sort of thing the Brits would do.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you should read the book about the shankhill butchers by martin dillon - so long since i've read it i can't recall it in detail, but it seems to me that the ruc were interested in catching lenny murphy and his mates - more a string of loyalist crimes than crimes of collusion iirc


 
I'm just looking at 'Dirty War' by the same author on google scholar as it happens- the Shankhill Butchers is the title of his work on this matter. Will have a look at that.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> Yeah cos the Brits were so good at stopping Protestants and soldiers getting killed!As I say an acceptable level of violence.
> British intelligence is either so good they knew everything and everyone ,but,didn't stop the violence for their own reasons.Or a bunch of drunken incompetents who couldn't find N Ireland on a globe.
> I don't know and I doubt anyone not connected will know the truth for a long time.
> Look at the Nemesis file a book about a death squad cooked up by a drunken squaddie's Walter Mitty tales of killing in North Ireland.Which far too many on both sides took as possibly true.As its the sort of thing the Brits would do.


there are of course more than two sides in northern ireland. unless you're meaning to suggest that it was republicans versus hmg/loyalists - that collusion was endemic, that crown forces and loyalists were inseparable.


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## JimW (Oct 3, 2011)

Never read the Eoin MacNamee book the film was based on, does he suggest anything of the sort in that (I know it was fictionalised)? His other one, The Ultras, I thought was well done, about Nairac and his running of the pseudo-gangs.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> Yeah cos the Brits were so good at stopping Protestants and soldiers getting killed!As I say an acceptable level of violence.
> British intelligence is either so good they knew everything and everyone ,but,didn't stop the violence for their own reasons.Or a bunch of drunken incompetents who couldn't find N Ireland on a globe.
> I don't know and I doubt anyone not connected will know the truth for a long time.
> Look at the Nemesis file a book about a death squad cooked up by a drunken squaddie's Walter Mitty tales of killing in North Ireland.Which far too many on both sides took as possibly true.As its the sort of thing the Brits would do.


 
In the documentary one fella responded to the interviewer with 'The brits had infiltrated the IRA to their highest echelons atthis time. Can you honestly tell me it was unlikely that they hadn't done the same with the the UDA and UVF?'

When pressed on the matter Jimmy Nesbit was emphatic that they didn't know, and when confronted by 'you wouldn't have been in the loop anyway would you?' he responded that he knew the character of the shankhill butchers leader and such a man would never have collaborated or been the sort of man to tolerate doubles in his ranks. Which while emphatic, seems a bit woolly and leaves room for other interpretations. One of the things Nesbitt (obe) was keen to stress was that these were not treated by his forces as sectarian inter-violence but rather the work of people who were murdering thugs in love with violence- asif he was trying to diplock the killings into a framework of 'only' the work of murderers.

It is a murky subject.


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## likesfish (Oct 3, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there are of course more than two sides in northern ireland. unless you're meaning to suggest that it was republicans versus hmg/loyalists - that collusion was endemic, that crown forces and loyalists were inseparable.


  which is a view expressed by some republicans along with any civilian killed by the provo's was either a mistake or collateral damage while all killings by the crown forces was meticulously planned murder most foul


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2011)

likesfish said:


> which is a view expressed by some republicans along with any civilian killed by the provo's was either a mistake or collateral damage while all killings by the crown forces was meticulously planned murder most foul


people of all political persuasions have been known to say silly things.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 3, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> In the documentary one fella responded to the interviewer with 'The brits had infiltrated the IRA to their highest echelons atthis time. Can you honestly tell me it was unlikely that they hadn't done the same with the the UDA and UVF?'
> 
> When pressed on the matter Jimmy Nesbit was emphatic that they didn't know, and when confronted by 'you wouldn't have been in the loop anyway would you?' he responded that he knew the character of the shankhill butchers leader and such a man would never have collaborated or been the sort of man to tolerate doubles in his ranks. Which while emphatic, seems a bit woolly and leaves room for other interpretations. One of the things Nesbitt (obe) was keen to stress was that these were not treated by his forces as sectarian inter-violence but rather the work of people who were murdering thugs in love with violence- asif he was trying to diplock the killings into a framework of 'only' the work of murderers.
> 
> It is a murky subject.


going down this path it was the evil brits who were behind everything, removing agency from the uda and uvf. but gusty spence's uvf started killing people in 1966, and i don't believe they were infiltrated by the british state then. things are indeed murky, but there were quite a number of things the loyalists were ready and willing to do without any prompting or assistance from anyone else.


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> going down this path it was the evil brits who were behind everything, removing agency from the uda and uvf. but gusty spence's uvf started killing people in 1966, and i don't believe they were infiltrated by the british state then. things are indeed murky, *but there were quite a number of things the loyalists were ready and willing to do without any prompting or assistance from anyone else.*


 
of course pickmans- the question is were this mob known to the security forces and allowed to continue.


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 3, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> of course pickmans- the question is were this mob known to the security forces and allowed to continue.



Were they known as violent loyalist individuals? Certainly, but as to whether either the slimes or MI5 picked them up as a paramilitary murder gang is harder to discern.

If pushed, I'd say that there were probably elements of the military and the intelligence community that either strongly suspected or knew fragments*, but that there was no impetus to put the jigsaw together, mostly because they were on "our" side.

*I'm basing my suspicions on the fact that the loyalist paramilitary community was well-known, that a "strategy of tension" in support of the state was an acknowledged tactic and that we know from ex-military sources such as Holroyd and Wallace (both of whose exposés of doings in '70s Ulster have been proven generally accurate over the course of time) that both MI5 and the green slime adopted a policy of "don't step over the line, and we'll leave you alone" (the line generally being killing or injuring members of the security forcs) with loyalists and members of loyalist gangs who gave free rein to their anti-Catholicism and anti-republicanism.


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2011)

The Pat Finucane are pretty sure the state/spooks knew who they were. One of the women from the Shaknhill 'May Blood'? was pretty clear that a large number on the Shankill knew who they were. That none of the states operatives in/out of the community would have picked that up is quite frankly ludicrous.

Here's the doco.. (parts 2-4 are links on the side of the page)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ScuNRlW6bEg&feature=related


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

That's the doc fed. The police fail explained seems beyond incompetence- they only rumbled them after one man survived a torture session ffs. People in the doc express that some in the community must have known but stayed silent from fear.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 3, 2011)

It is believed that the state were aware of these activities.. at that time there was very little they didnt know...
As it goes the UVF were that sickened with the Butchers that they liased with the PIRA to have Lenny whacked... One of them is still about in Belfast, allegedly found God in Prison  though he keeps a very low profile...


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> That's the doc fed. The police fail explained seems beyond incompetence- they only rumbled them after one man survived a torture session ffs. People in the doc express that some in the community must have known but stayed silent from fear.



I don't doubt some people knew but were terrified, entirely understandable. But if such a large number knew and yet plod, the UV's and wombles and the state claim they didn't? No chance.....


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## DotCommunist (Oct 3, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> It is believed that the state were aware of these activities.. at that time there was very little they didnt know...
> As it goes the UVF were that sickened with the Butchers that they liased with the PIRA to have Lenny whacked... One of them is still about in Belfast, allegedly found God in Prison  though he keeps a very low profile...


 
of the wider gang several ae still 'at large' having been released iirc under the good friday stuff. The main four, three died and as you say the main man was given up to the ra by his fellows after his release for a six year stretch on a gun charge.

one of the more uncomfortable bits from the documentary is the daughter of one of the victims detailing how she was held up for two hours in a car jam while the funeral procession of one of the three who died from natural causes went by. That is pretty fucking sick, considering what they did to her father.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I don't doubt some people knew but were terrified, entirely understandable. But if such a large number knew and yet plod, the UV's and wombles and the state claim they didn't? No chance.....


          Oh they knew/suspected. Couldn't prove it in a court of law.


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> Oh they knew/suspected. *Couldn't prove it in a court of law*.



Didn't exactly stop them locking up suspected Republicans on the most spurious of 'evidence'. Famously including one Republican being lifted for being sweaty in the vicinity of a shooting-obviously having run away from a crime-for murder.... So why their reticence here..... Couldn't be another reason could there? A look at the stats during internment might be a pointer.....


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## dylanredefined (Oct 3, 2011)

Probably  the truth will remain unknown for a long time.Look at the mess they made of the bloody Sunday inquiry and that atrocity happened in front of cameras.


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## eoin_k (Oct 3, 2011)

I had a flick through the Martin Dillon book after I saw this thread and he argued that the RUC were negligent and incompetent rather than complicit. He draws a nice contrast between the resources put into the Shankill Butchers investigation and the Yorkshire Ripper enquiry.  Given his politics, or lack thereof, he'd be unlikely to come down on the other side of the argument without very firm evidence although he has done some good investigative work on loyalist terrorism and the states role in the dirty war over the years.


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## likesfish (Oct 3, 2011)

possibly because trying to do a Yorkshire ripper style investigation in a war zoneish kind of tricky


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## eoin_k (Oct 3, 2011)

likesfish said:


> possibly because trying to do a Yorkshire ripper style investigation in a war zoneish kind of tricky



It wasn't contrasting the 'style' of the investigation, so your post isn't relevant.


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## likesfish (Oct 3, 2011)

they weren't the only murders being committed at the time though


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> It is believed that the state were aware of these activities.. at that time there was very little they didnt know...
> As it goes the UVF were that sickened with the Butchers that they liased with the PIRA to have Lenny whacked... One of them is still about in Belfast, allegedly found God in Prison  though he keeps a very low profile...



Do you mean Mr A?


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## eoin_k (Oct 3, 2011)

likesfish said:


> they weren't the only murders being committed at the time though



Having previously written _Political Murder in Northern Ireland _it is reasonable to assume that Martin Dillon was well aware of this point. But thank you for sharing it with us.


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## Fedayn (Oct 3, 2011)

likesfish said:


> they weren't the only murders being committed at the time though



What? No..... Surely not?!


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## josef1878 (Oct 3, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> I'm just looking at 'Dirty War' by the same author on google scholar as it happens- the Shankhill Butchers is the title of his work on this matter. Will have a look at that.



The Shankill Butchers and Dirty War are part of a trilogy written by Martin Dillon, the other book is Killer in Clowntown. All three are good but the Shankill Butchers is gruesome, i couldn't put it down. Lenny Murphy deserves to be where he is now.


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## audiotech (Oct 4, 2011)

To use an old adage, the truth has a habit of seeping out when least expected.


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## audiotech (Oct 4, 2011)

likesfish said:


> possibly because trying to do a Yorkshire ripper style investigation in a war zoneish kind of tricky



Especially if an "OOB" has been called.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

They kidnapped and pulled out all but three of guys teeth out because they guessed he was Catholic.

No matter how much history I know of the place I still find myself stunned at some of the events that went on.


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## audiotech (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> They kidnapped and pulled out all but three of guys teeth out because they guessed he was Catholic.
> 
> No matter how much history I know of the place I still find myself stunned at some of the events that went on.



He got away pretty lightly compared to the man who had a cut to his throat so deep his head was almost severed from his body.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

audiotech said:


> He got away pretty lightly compared to the man who had a cut to his throat so deep his head was almost severed from his body.



Yeah but you be dead pretty quick from that. I think having your throat cut is getting off lightly compared to having your damn death teeth pulled out with a pair of pliers.


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## audiotech (Oct 4, 2011)

I hear some people who find it difficult to access NHS dentistry have done that to themselves.

I don't know about you, but I would prefer to be alive with no teeth, than dead with my head at the side of me with a full set.


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I hear some people who find it difficult to access NHS dentistry have done that to themselves.



 are you intoxicated? You don't know _anybody_ who has pulled their own perfectly healthy teeth... and anyway there is something of a difference between pulling a rotten tooth voluntarily and having all your teeth pulled out involuntarily whilst kidnapped and strapped down by fundamentalist sadists.


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## dylanredefined (Oct 4, 2011)

If the state knew about these fucks why not just have them killed?Loyalists might want them around westminster just wanted the whole
mess to stop.If they were just killing terrorists you could understand keeping them around they were just a bunch of murderers though
so why bother?


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 4, 2011)

audiotech said:


> He got away pretty lightly compared to the man who had a cut to his throat so deep his head was almost severed from his body.


Most of the victims were tortured in the backroom of a shebeen known as the 'romper room' where more than the handful of the Butchers arrested participated in the tortures... proper sick mofos....
They say Mr A (William) and mr B were Lenny's Brothers (Mr B John died in a car crash a while ago) Mr C was Colin Berry, Mr D Roy Stewart, Mr G Antony Berry (Mr C's brother)

As to state collusion... this makes interesting reading

even today some elements hold these c8nts in high regard:


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> As to state collusion... this makes interesting reading
> 
> even today some elements hold these c8nts in high regard:




How jolly. An ideal tune to torture taigs to.

I wish it was just a few cranks who thought the Butchers were heroes... but Lenny Murphy's portrait hung proudly of the inside wall of the PROGRESSIVE Unionist Party's Belfast headquarters

i remember someone pulled David Ervine on it and he intimated that whilst he would love to bin it... his own life might be in ganger if he did.


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Most of the victims were tortured in the backroom of a shebeen known as the 'romper room' where more than the handful of the Butchers arrested participated in the tortures... proper sick mofos....
> They say Mr A (William) and mr B were Lenny's Brothers (Mr B John died in a car crash a while ago) Mr C was Colin Berry, Mr D Roy Stewart, Mr G Antony Berry (Mr C's brother)
> 
> As to state collusion... this makes interesting reading
> ...




Just looked up 'romper room' on wiki and found this.


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> Oh they knew/suspected. Couldn't prove it in a court of law.



why, at a time when hundreds of people were interned for up to 4 years_ without trial or even Charge_, would the lack of concrete evidence prove problematic to their removal from circulation?


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## Garek (Oct 4, 2011)

LiamO said:


> why, at a time when hundreds of people were interned for up to 4 years_ without trial or even Charge_, would the lack of concrete evidence prove problematic to their removal from circulation?


 
I now have "Men Behind the Wire in my Head".

_Being Irish means they're guilty
So we're guilty one and all_


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 4, 2011)

LiamO said:


> why, at a time when hundreds of people were interned for up to 4 years_ without trial or even Charge_, would the lack of concrete evidence prove problematic to their removal from circulation?


As you know 'Internment' had ended at this stage.... The states main thrust at that time were 'supergrass' trials that ended in farce....

They knew alright... it suited to keep the 'croppy boys' down methinks???


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

Garek said:


> I now have "Men Behind the Wire in my Head".
> 
> _Being Irish means they're guilty_
> _So we're guilty one and all_



On Monday... the 4th of August 1971...at 4am... Irishmen were taken from their homes... all over the six counties... hundredsof these men were then inmprisoned... without trial... in Long Kesh concentration camp... this is a song... born of the civil resistance campaign which followed internment... a song for those men in Long Kesh... The Men Behind The Wire...

dum... duh dum dum dum dum...

i wish to fuck I could just recall ABBA and gilbert O'Sullivan songs from 1972


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 4, 2011)




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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> As you know 'Internment' had ended at this stage....



what stage? Internment was ended in Dacember 1975 IIRC

IIRC Supergrass trials began post hunger-strike


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 4, 2011)

LiamO said:


> what stage? Internment was ended in Dacember 1975 IIRC
> 
> IIRC Supergrass trials began post hunger-strike


The butchers operated 75ish till 79ish AFAIR....
lenny was inside early 70s ( think he was interned eventually)... previously there was a messy time when he whacked one of his own and the trial went pearshaped 

True... the supergrass trials didnt start properly till 81 (Christopher Black? or Kilpatrick being the first)
Off topic: weird to see a current loyalist supergrass trial.. dunno how i feel about that...


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## DotCommunist (Oct 4, 2011)

The docu says lenny was nicked on a gun charge an kept inside for six years but continued to direct the boys from inside


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Off topic: weird to see a current loyalist supergrass trial.. dunno how i feel about that...



I'm delighted.

Hope the HET will unravel a few more threads. Each one is one step closer to the whle ball unravelling.

Sooner or later Haddock will sing like a canary exposing the real level of RUC Special Branch collusion - if the spooks don't have him whacked first.

Expect more 'insurance' executions of those who know too much, probably disguised as 'internecine loyalist feuding', if and when Haddock and his buddies go down.


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## AKA pseudonym (Oct 4, 2011)

DotCommunist said:


> The docu says lenny was nicked on a gun charge an kept inside for six years but continued to direct the boys from inside


tbh.. i believe lenny wasnt the smartest operator... i reckon his brothers kept the 'family business' going more so...


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## audiotech (Oct 4, 2011)

LiamO said:


> are you intoxicated? You don't know _anybody_ who has pulled their own perfectly healthy teeth... and anyway there is something of a difference between pulling a rotten tooth voluntarily and having all your teeth pulled out involuntarily whilst kidnapped and strapped down by fundamentalist sadists.



I withdraw my remark.


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## LiamO (Oct 4, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I withdraw my remark.



appreciated... it was out of character for you


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## DotCommunist (Apr 15, 2015)

> The Shankill Butchers and Dirty War are part of a trilogy written by Martin Dillon, the other book is Killer in Clowntown. All three are good but the Shankill Butchers is gruesome, i couldn't put it down. Lenny Murphy deserves to be where he is now.




Just got promised all three of these to borrow on the weekend. Must remember not to be grease hands corner bending mgee


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## josef1878 (Apr 16, 2015)

DotCommunist said:


> Just got promised all three of these to borrow on the weekend. Must remember not to be grease hands corner bending mgee




You won't put Shankill Butchers down. I still scratch my head at what I read. Dirty War is good.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 26, 2015)

josef1878 said:


> You won't put Shankill Butchers down. I still scratch my head at what I read. Dirty War is good.


reading it (in doses because it feels like wading through filth of the bad kind) I actually get a bit more respect for the task Nesbitt was facing. Trying to run a murder investigation in the middle of a low level civil war with about 6 factions involved- he came off in the docu as a fool but the book details that he was, while a copper, a copper very good at his job.

I think what still grips me about this and why I'm doing the reading is that they went after random taigs. Not players, not provos, not anyone involved in the war. Just people having the misfortune to be pissed and catholic and in the wrong place at the wrong time. How does a society do that to itself? They speak my language, they eat chips, they nod to the same god at weddings n funerals- shit, they wear the same crappy sportswear I do and yet they tore themselves apart. I'm trying to make sense of it.

Killer In Clowntown next. Dogs bit the fucker right to the central pages but its still readable


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## starfish (Apr 26, 2015)

Part of the problem/issue is that most of Britain doesn't, either know, care, or give a fuck.


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## eoin_k (Apr 26, 2015)

Are you recommending the Ross Kemp programme as a tool for political education, or citing it as an example to illustrate your argument?


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## starfish (Apr 26, 2015)

I'm citing as a case for their indifference.


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## Casually Red (Apr 27, 2015)

josef1878 said:


> You won't put Shankill Butchers down. I still scratch my head at what I read. Dirty War is good.



It barely scratches the surface . Dillon gives a serious amount of leeway on stuff that we now know was outright collusion . The stuff he let's nesbitt away with is ridiculous . Basically nesbitt is saying there was no organised collusion . That's utter rubbish . Nesbitt was CID . If special branch told them not to arrest someone then they simply didn't . At least 99 percent of the time . His fellow CID detective jonty brown, the man who put Adair away tells a very different story as to what happens when you lift the wrong guy .

It's strongly believed now that one of the leaders of the murder gang , most of whom have  never been convicted, was robin Jackson . The most prolific killer of the troubles with a known 100 murders or more under his belt . He was just as happy with the knife as he was with the gun and bomb . And he was protected from prosecution the entire time.
There's a case of a grisly butcher type killing in castlewellan in rural south down  . Same mo as the shankill ones. Young lad on his way home from a night out . Kidnapped . Found horribly mutilated . Won't go into the details . The powers that be arrested and sentenced some local Protestants over it . They and pretty much everyone in that area believes today they were innocent of the murder and framed to protect the real killer . Whose handiwork and mo was well known .
Robin Jackson was regularly on the shankill during the butcher period as a senior uvf assassin .He's believed to have been behind a number of knife murders both sides of the border .
There's also an affidavit from an RUC officer by the name of John Weir , who was convicted for his role in the UVFS glennanne gang . He describes trawling the back roads of south Armagh in a car driven by Jackson . Who revealed to him he was carrying a hammer and a knife under his seat , clearly looking for an easy victim . That was the exact same mo as the butcher gang . During the very same period . There's no doubt whatsoever Jackson was a heavily protected state asset . None . The evidence is glaring .

As regards Murphy being set up the most likely candidate on the loyalist side for that wasnt murphys UVF but a shankill UDA leader by the name of James Craig . Craig was pretty much only in it for the extortion rackets .  And passed on info on a number of other loyalists , mostly senior UVF rivals to republican groups . It kept him raking the cash in and kept himself free of the fear of republican assassination . The UDA finally twigged him after being tipped off by the RUC and killed him in 87  .

There were also other butcher and romper room gangs apart from murphys outfit . One member of them was a guy called Albert "ginger" BAker . He admitted to being an army operative . You can google him . Another was the case of senior army agent Brian Nelson . Who an army patrol blundered into one night as they were taking an horrifically tortured abducted catholic away from their night of romper room fun to kill him . In a car belonging to another soldier . When arrested he was found to be in possession of a handgun . Which it turns out was given to him by the military for his own protection, all legal and above board . Despite his records stating he'd been discharged years earlier before the troubles broke out . He only got a slap on the wrist, conspiracy to murder charges dropped espite them being caught in the act .


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## Casually Red (Apr 27, 2015)

dylanredefined said:


> If the state knew about these fucks why not just have them killed?Loyalists might want them around westminster just wanted the whole
> mess to stop.If they were just killing terrorists you could understand keeping them around they were just a bunch of murderers though
> so why bother?



To terrorise the population into lowering their political aims . Have a gander at general kitsons guidelines on low intensity warfare , and the use of what's euphemistically referred to as "friendly forces" . Many of these gangs were either members of or working under the direction of plain clothes army units and special branch . They were your basic death squads that all sorts of modern armies habitually employ when faced with insurgencies . There's nothing all that remarkable about it . Kitson had pioneered these techniques previously in Kenya and Aden . 

The biggest paramilitary grouping in the north was the UDA . Membership of it was perfectly legal up until about 1990 when the international scrutiny became too embarrassing . For most of the conflict it was perfectly acceptable to be a UDA member and a member of the UDR...a British army regiment... simultaneously . It's ranks we're also full of UVF . The vast bulk of the loyalists arms and ammunition came directly from British stores . That was until 14th intelligence and agent Brian Nelson began importing major shipments from south Africa in the late 80s .

Westminster didn't just want it stop . They wanted it to stop on their terms . To win, unsurprisingly . Which they did .


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## Casually Red (Apr 27, 2015)

Anyways...speak of the candy man . General frank kitson is now going to be sued along with the MOD by the family of one of these gangs victims . Intelligence operative Albert Baker, former SAS , has supplied the information necessary to bring a case . The law firm say its going to be the first of many .
While this wasn't the shankill butcher gang, the most prolific, Bakers outfit carried out a series of grisly romper murders that preceded the shankill uvfs spree .
Likely we'll hear a lot more about this .


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## DotCommunist (Apr 27, 2015)

and thats all the justice anyone will ever get, a payout. Still, at least lenny met a fate richly deserved.

I want to know who the Mr A, B and C's were. Theres people walking around like they did nothing, free and happy.


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## Casually Red (Apr 28, 2015)

Well Dillon referred in his book to a mr f having the nickname bunter . And if you google  "bunter UVF" that might give you a clue . And there's some interesting photos up on Flickr with some guys posing together on various nights out in the 70s . More than one of thems called Murphy . Google shankill butchers photos and you might find something interesting .


There was also some stuff a while back about another victim that's only now being Inked to these animals many years later . A catholic woman who was found murdered in her home in north Belfast , Christ knows what they did to her when they had her . Skull fractured and all sorts .They burned the body to destroy evidence . But what's particularly notable about it is its now been admitted the evidence that was brought to the forensic labs was all destroyed in a mystery fire within 24 hours . And the cops have told her fairly that the case may be linked to the butchers, and a man called Murphy . And Lenny Murphy was inside during 1976 . So that's an indication as to the reliability of Dillon bestowing sainthood on the great jimmy nesbitt and his claims nobody knew who these ghouls were . It's complete rubbish . Even journalists knew .

If you go onto YouTube there's a fairly recent documentary on the shankill butchers by a man I despise as a broadcaster but who actually did a decent job this time , Stephen Nolan . Hes a Shankill native and he makes it abundantly clear there was no secret as to who these guys were . He does a fairly good job holding Nesbit to account as well . And when you consider Bunter it also makes a laughing stock of Dillons insistence these guys were somehow separate from or reviled by the UVF leadership . Utter rubbish .

It's a sickening fact that when fat Sam McCallister died a few years back thousands lined the route on the shankill to see that ghoul off . Repugnant . But then again these guys sometimes even brought their girlfriends and their girlfriends mates into the romper rooms to show off their handiwork .

But sure jimmy nesbitt claimed nobody knew . And Martin dillons still defending him .


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## Casually Red (Apr 28, 2015)

I'd ask people to consider this about the Dillon book . Dillons asking us to believe that this gang of sadists could just get drunk off their heads , cpntinually cruise into catholic areas that were routinely heavily patrolled and watched by armed police, armed troops , helicopters , watchtowers on high flats overlooking the scene of abductions ...all sorts of surveillance equipment and every manner of undercover , specialist and covert armed agency employed against those small districts . Snatch people repeatedly off the street . Without even a scout car in front or a walkie talkie . Then hightail it back , often to a drinking club full of other drunk people to watch the nights sport .

And he tells us nobody knew who they were and they did it all on their own without state assistance or the state turning a blind eye . It's utter nonsense . It was just one more state death squad amongst a host of others . That book was just a whitewash for the RUC and other state agencies reputations .


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## Casually Red (Jul 13, 2017)

This again would indicate that Dillons book was a load of rubbish . And that it wasn't a sectarian campaign being orchestrated by someone in a jail cell but someone else entirely . Someone who never did any time, surprise surprise .

Lenny Murphy's brother was real boss of Shankill Butchers gang, says new book - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk

And more than a whiff of suspected collusion here , concerning the UVFs use of Girdwood barracks as not just a hub for finance, weaponry and recruitment but also openly using it as a drinking den . They had the complete run of the place, with British army knowledge . Hardly surprising that many of the butcher gangs victims were abducted almost right outside that particular British military base .And that one of the butcher gangs membership of the British armed forces was covered up .

British army 'covered up' UDR units links to UVF - Investigations & Analysis - Northern Ireland from The Detail


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## Casually Red (Jul 13, 2017)

Another claim here from a loyalist source that claims to know at least one of the butcher gangs abductions was facilitated by British spooks placing an OOB order to give them free movement . If that's true then it was probably the case for most of their murders . Their MO was depressingly familiar . They could drive around heavily watched and patrolled catholic areas with impunity, for years, and even snatch many victims from almost outside the same British army base . A base bristling with surveillance equipment that saw nothing . And which was full to the gills of UVF members , whether in uniform or simply dropping in or a subsidised pint .

How Britain created Ulster's murder gangs


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