# Welsh War of Independence



## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

Out of interest, were there any large-scale battles during Owain Glyndwr's revolt, or was the war exclusively skirmish/guerilla style action. What was the largest engagement in the war/s?

Secondly, can anybody recommend me a good introductory book on this part of our history?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Out of interest, were there any large-scale battles during Owain Glyndwr's revolt, or was the war exclusively skirmish/guerilla style action. What was the largest engagement in the war/s?
> 
> Secondly, can anybody recommend me a good introductory book on this part of our history?


in wars of independence, isn't the country (here wales) claiming it's a war of independence supposed to end up, er, independent?


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

Yes. Wales did end up independent.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Yes. Wales did end up independent.


when?


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

1404 (convening of the Welsh Parliament at Machynlleth) to 1409 when Glyndwr lost control of Wales.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Out of interest, were there any large-scale battles during Owain Glyndwr's revolt, or was the war exclusively skirmish/guerilla style action. What was the largest engagement in the war/s?
> 
> Secondly, can anybody recommend me a good introductory book on this part of our history?



Skirmishes only.

I strongly recommend R R Davies The revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr Oxford 1995. Paperback edition 1997. I believe it should easily available. Cost £10 when first published.

Its fascinating to discover how closely interwoven the gentry class, from which Glyn Dwr sprang, were regardless of which was their primary language.

It is also curious to note that Glyn DWr did make some efforts to develop a popular following and to some small degree succeeded.

What also emerges is that in his day there was no Welsh nation and his attempt to found a specifically Welsh state failed. It is in this sense that Wales fits inot the Hegelian category of being a non-historic nation.

Thought I'd mention it as I get the idea that when I've used the term in the past some think I mean Wales has no history or that I'm simply dissing Wales. Anyway enjoy the book it's a good read.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> 1404 (convening of the Welsh Parliament at Machynlleth) to 1409 when Glyndwr lost control of Wales.


bollox!

by 1409, glyndwr had lost control of *all* of wales - his control over wales was declining from 1404 on.

to what ends did the welsh turn this transient 'independence', if such it was?


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## lewislewis (Nov 19, 2005)

Thanks for the recommendation!

Not a follower of Hegel. Of course nations didn't exist in that period, but an independent Welsh territory resulted (briefly).


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## Karac (Nov 19, 2005)

The best book is ,of course "The Welsh wars of Independence" by David Moore.





They were hardly skirmishes either-at one stage Glyndwr led a 30-40,000 strong invasion of England.
Wales at that time was politically unified with delegates of three to four people from every cantref of Wales to a Parliament in Macynlleth.


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## Redstar (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Skirmishes only.
> 
> I strongly recommend R R Davies The revolt of Owain Glyn Dwr Oxford 1995. Paperback edition 1997. I believe it should easily available. Cost £10 when first published.
> 
> ...



 Glyndwr pioneered Guerilla warfare as we know it today, and as such was a model for later thinkers, the most notable being Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. But to say that he engaged in "skirmishes only" is rubbish. Battles such as Brynglas and Pilleth were head on confrontations which inflicted historic defeats on the vast English armies which were sent in to smother him. The man was a military genius who took on the oppression of a hugely funded and technologically advanced foe with few native resources at his disposal.

 Whatever notions Hegel used to define nationhood, the welsh certainly didn't use them. The Welsh defined themselves collectively as "Cymry" "Fellow compatriots", long before England, Germany or many other nations in Europe were distinct entities. If there has never been a historical welsh state, it's simply because we have never had the chance to form one, being subjected to the yoke of a larger and much more powerful neighbour. It's called - colonialism  

 It always amuses me to see Lefties who diss on the historical basis of the Welsh nation and yet happily champion Palestine which is nothing more than the artificial creation of Yasser Arafat - a corrupt tosser who died a lot more wealthy and powerful than Glyndwr ever did. Give me Glyndwr any day...


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## editor (Nov 20, 2005)

<slew of posts deleted>

The next off-topic disruptive post after this one earns the poster a ban. There's appropriate forums for pissing about in, but if every decent debate about Wales is going to get trashed there's not much point having the forum.

So, I repeat: the next off-topic, disruptive post after this one earns the poster a ban.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Glyndwr pioneered Guerilla warfare as we know it today, and as such was a model for later thinkers, the most notable being Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. But to say that he engaged in "skirmishes only" is rubbish. Battles such as Brynglas and Pilleth were head on confrontations which inflicted historic defeats on the vast English armies which were sent in to smother him. The man was a military genius who took on the oppression of a hugely funded and technologically advanced foe with few native resources at his disposal.
> 
> Whatever notions Hegel used to define nationhood, the welsh certainly didn't use them. The Welsh defined themselves collectively as "Cymry" "Fellow compatriots", long before England, Germany or many other nations in Europe were distinct entities. If there has never been a historical welsh state, it's simply because we have never had the chance to form one, being subjected to the yoke of a larger and much more powerful neighbour. It's called - colonialism
> 
> It always amuses me to see Lefties who diss on the historical basis of the Welsh nation and yet happily champion Palestine which is nothing more than the artificial creation of Yasser Arafat - a corrupt tosser who died a lot more wealthy and powerful than Glyndwr ever did. Give me Glyndwr any day...



As far as I can see nobody is dissing the historical basis of the Welsh nation. What I have criticised is the ahistorical notion that such a nation existed prior to the capitalist era. This understanding of Welsh nationhood is derived to some considerable degree from the work of G A Williams who was hardly opposed to Welsh nationalism.

It is certainly true that there was a consciousness throughout Wales in Glyn Dwr's time of belonging to a single Welsh people distinct from the English but such a self conception is hardly unique to history and is very different to modern theories of nationalism. Including those of Hegel and Marx.

That Glyn Dwr was a superb military cmmander cannot be denied given his ability to hold of forces many times larger than his own tiny armies. But is is foolish to posit him as a precusor to modern forms of geurilla warfare given that, to the best of my knowledge, his campaigns had no influence on any later commanders.

I refer to Glyn Dwr's battles as skirmishes only as the size of the forces involved was by the standards of the day small.

In any case Glyn Dwr's aims and methods were very different from the foci method employed by Castro and Guevara.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I refer to Glyn Dwr's battles as skirmishes only as the size of the forces involved was by the standards of the day small.
> 
> In any case Glyn Dwr's aims and methods were very different from the foci method employed by Castro and Guevara.



Fidel cited Glyndwr as an influence 

Interesting to see who the top 5 Welshmen of the millennium were; Owain, Aneurin Bevan, Gwynfor Evans, David Lloyd George, and Llywelyn ap Gruffudd.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

I've ordered two books, there were some good large battles and castle assaults. Stalling Down was pretty gruesome, Bryn Glas obviously a good one. Mainly skirmishes but there's no denying there were some big medieval clashes too.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Fidel cited Glyndwr as an influence



Yes I've seen this mentioned before but have never been able to track down an actual quote from Mr Castro. I believe Mr Castro and his chums took state power in 1959 yet the earliest mention of the influence of Glyn Dwr on him dates from 2000 a little while after the cessation of hostilities. Until I'm provided with an actual quote from the early 1960's or earlier I consider the Castro remark apocryphal.


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## niclas (Nov 20, 2005)

This thread persuaded me to start reading The Revolt of Owain Glyndwr, particularly the mention of 4 delegates per cantref to Glyndwr's parliament - not recallable of course, but the great and the good of each district.

 I found the reference to a poem from Glyndwr's "in-house" poet Iolo Goch interesting.

It's an ode praising the labourer or ploughman and "contains an explicit critique of the values and ambitions of aristocratic society; the ploughman is no 'plundering Arthur', unlike other men he does not make war or oppress others for their goods... but the ploughman's virtues are not merely negative, his is a fundamental role in society: 'without him no pope or emperor can live, no king... no living man'."
 The poem ends with "nid bywyd, nid byd heb ef" - no life, no world without him - as good a Marxist interpretation of history as you're likely to get in 15th C Wales.
 Iolo Goch = Red Iolo... wonder if he was trying to tell us something?


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## editor (Nov 20, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> This thread persuaded me to start reading The Revolt of Owain Glyndwr, particularly the mention of 4 delegates per cantref to Glyndwr's parliament - not recallable of course, but the great and the good of each district.


From the BBC article:


> Since the conquest, Welsh resentment had been fuelled by the imposition of laws favouring English rulers and settlers, laws which later historians have described as "a system of apartheid".
> 
> Welshmen were banned from holding land or trading in the towns established around the castles built to secure the conquest.
> 
> ...


The amazing thing is that had he been English (or Scots/Irish) there would have been blockbuster movies a go-go about Glyndwr...

I wasn't even taught his story when I was growing up in Cardiff.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 20, 2005)

On Gwyn Williams: Disappointing that a guy who wrote an excellent book on Gramsci and Workers councils in Italy - "Proletarian Order" then went and joined a bland social democratic nationalist outfit - what went wrong?

On Glyndwr: I find it rather tragic that Plaid Cymru members think this feudal overlord is really important and even march to his grave - he has no relevance to the 21st Century and he ain't a hero of mine. He is of historical importance but not contemporary importance.

I originate from East Anglia in England , there's a guy called Hereward the Wake who resisted the Norman Conquest. He's an interesting guy, but like Glyndwr he has no relevance to any modern day struggles.

Personally, I identify more with General Ludd, Robin Hood and Luke Skywalker


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## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Personally, I identify more with [...] Luke Skywalker


that explains a lot.

seems to me there's a lot to be said for more discussion of glyndwyr's time. it would be interesting to see just what this parliament at machynlleth actually did - but i still feel that it is more than a tad romantick to describe glynswr's revolt as a war of independence.


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> From the BBC article:
> The amazing thing is that had he been English (or Scots/Irish) there would have been blockbuster movies a go-go about Glyndwr...
> 
> I wasn't even taught his story when I was growing up in Cardiff.



Me neither my friend.

Pickmans- Ok that's fair enough.

I think Owain Glyndwr has relevance because he was the saviour of our people at the time, and anyone who makes a stand against the odds is respected in my book, both the leaders and the ordinary foot soldiers. Glyndwr secured the support of all sections of Welsh society, including the 'labourers who left their fields in England to join the rebellion' (GM Trevelyan).
I also dispute the fact that a Welsh nation did not exist at the time. The Cymro knew very well they were part of a Welsh nation as by definition, Cymro means countrymen, compatriots. Glyndwr alluded to the nation in a letter to the King of France ('my nation has been trampled under foot by the barbarian English'). Glyndwr was also a genuinely well-intentioned guy compared to the other medieval leaders of the period, he managed to win over several powerful English Lords to his cause, including Mortimer and Henry Percy ('Hotspur'). He was cultured and sincere and was friends with loads of English noblemen (notably the Duke of Gloucester). I've learnt loads already.

Yes, a Welsh nation definitely existed in 1404; its own civil servants and diplomats, treasury, legal system, parliament, armed forces and a Church whose independence from Canterbury was recognised by the Pope at Avignon.

About Castro- I know for a fact he is interested in medieval Irish history, so its not too far fetched to believe there's some truth behind the idea.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> On Gwyn Williams: Disappointing that a guy who wrote an excellent book on Gramsci and Workers councils in Italy - "Proletarian Order" then went and joined a bland social democratic nationalist outfit - what went wrong?
> 
> On Glyndwr: I find it rather tragic that Plaid Cymru members think this feudal overlord is really important and even march to his grave - he has no relevance to the 21st Century and he ain't a hero of mine. He is of historical importance but not contemporary importance.
> 
> ...



Nothing 'went wrong' with Gwyn Alf his politics were from the first formed by his Welsh identity and his early training in the Popular Frontist politics opf the CPGB. In other words his politics were reformist right from the beginning but he was trained to express them using Marxist verbiage. His excellent book on Gramsci  transcends his own role as an activist and is tribute to his considerable skills as an academic. You should note that his view of the later Gramsci is fully in hermony with the views of the PCI Eurorevisionists.

Your cmment regarding herewake the Wake is crassly ignorant given that he had only regional importance whilest Glwy Dwr is of national import. Therefore Glwy Dwr is politically significant in terms of what might have been and what might still be. And I oppose Welsh nationalism you will note but contrary to you disdain both your tailism of Cymdeithas and this national chauvinism regarding Glyn Dwr

Finally many thanks for your list of the members of the SWP's Central Committee.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 20, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Me neither my friend.
> 
> I think Owain Glyndwr has relevance because he was the saviour of our people at the time, and anyone who makes a stand against the odds is respected in my book, both the leaders and the ordinary foot soldiers. Glyndwr secured the support of all sections of Welsh society, including the 'labourers who left their fields in England to join the rebellion' (GM Trevelyan).
> I also dispute the fact that a Welsh nation did not exist at the time. The Cymro knew very well they were part of a Welsh nation as by definition, Cymro means countrymen, compatriots. Glyndwr alluded to the nation in a letter to the King of France ('my nation has been trampled under foot by the barbarian English'). Glyndwr was also a genuinely well-intentioned guy compared to the other medieval leaders of the period, he managed to win over several powerful English Lords to his cause, including Mortimer and Henry Percy ('Hotspur'). He was cultured and sincere and was friends with loads of English noblemen (notably the Duke of Gloucester). I've learnt loads already.
> ...



Despite being very old I was taught about Glyn Dwr while at school in the early years of the last century for what thats worth. I also receieved long detailed accounts of the various splits in the chapels, urgh! Decent old chap my histopry teacher but a bit religious.

Anyhow I'll not repeat my coments regarding the lack of a Welsh nation in the 1400's. But please be wary when reading Glyn Dwr's use of the word nation as it did not carry the same meaning then as it does in the modern era. And frankly who gives a shit that he wasd recognised by the Anti-Pope? That was just a reflection of power politics amongst the elite.

Well it makes sense that Mr Castro is interested in Ireland given his upbringing and early indoctrination by members of the Roman cult of Christians but you provide no proof for his alleged knowledge of Glyn Dwr. Apocrypha I suspect and wishful thinking by some.


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## editor (Nov 20, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Well it makes sense that Mr Castro is interested in Ireland given his upbringing and early indoctrination by members of the Roman cult of Christians but you provide no proof for his alleged knowledge of Glyn Dwr.


Some interesting quotes:


> To celebrate the 600th anniversary of Glyndwr's uprising, beacons were lit throughout Wales on September 15, 2000. The following day was declared "Welsh Independence Day" and was celebrated with patriotic events and activities throughout all the communities of Wales. Six centuries after Glyndwr's death, Prince Owain is still considered the last ruling King of Wales - a Herculean courage among Welsh heroes. In 2000, Glyndwr was voted "Welshman of the Millennium" by the people of Wales. Contemporary world leaders such as Bill Clinton and Fidel Castro have publically expressed admiration for Glyndwr's strength, fortitude and military prowess.
> http://www.welshwales.co.uk/welsh_heritage.htm





> 600th anniversary
> 
> He is seen as an inspiration not only to guerilla leaders - Fidel Castro admired his military tactics - but to those who have tried to improve Wales's political status in the six centuries since Glyndwr's defeat.
> (BBC) http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/1135472.stm


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## lewislewis (Nov 20, 2005)

There's a Guardian link that quotes Castro calling OG 'the world's first guerrilla leader'. 
If these are myths, it'd be interesting to find out how the rumour started.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> There's a Guardian link that quotes Castro calling OG 'the world's first guerrilla leader'.
> If these are myths, it'd be interesting to find out how the rumour started.



There's no source for the 'quote'. Rotten journalism providing an unattributed quote like that.

Now for what its worth I think the alleged quote is a legacy of the Manic Street Preachers visit to Cuba in 2000.


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## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

Maybe so. I have that DVD, awesome gig. Funnily enough Nicky Wire (Manics bassist) wanted to write a screen play for a massive film about Owain Glyndwr.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 21, 2005)

Castro's grandmother was from Co. Clare, Ireland, btw.

Wrt to Glyndwr; how much of his struggle was driven by the needs of the Welsh aristocracy, and how much by the needs of the masses?

ADDS:

And the obvious precedent for guerilla war in Latin America would be the Peninsular war, Napoleon's Spanish Ulcer (and possibly the revolt of Tupac Amaru in the 18th century)


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## Dai Sheep (Nov 21, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> From the BBC article:
> The amazing thing is that had he been English (or Scots/Irish) there would have been blockbuster movies a go-go about Glyndwr...
> 
> I wasn't even taught his story when I was growing up in Cardiff.



Me neither...I wasnt taught ANY Welsh history until I went to uni.  It infuriates me that so many people are ignorant of our history because of the Anglo-centric 'British' history everyone is taught at school.  I guess 'they' just dont want us to know.


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## Dai Sheep (Nov 21, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Out of interest, were there any large-scale battles during Owain Glyndwr's revolt, or was the war exclusively skirmish/guerilla style action. What was the largest engagement in the war/s?
> 
> Secondly, can anybody recommend me a good introductory book on this part of our history?



In Search of Owain Glyndwr, Chris Barber, Blorenge books, 2004. ISBN: 1 87 2730 33 7.

http://bookshop.blackwell.co.uk/bob...ihljmlcefeceegdfigdffo.0&productid=1872730337


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## Col_Buendia (Nov 21, 2005)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> Castro's grandmother was from Co. Clare, Ireland, btw.
> 
> Wrt to Glyndwr; how much of his struggle was driven by the needs of the Welsh aristocracy, and how much by the needs of the masses?
> 
> ...


[off topic]_(apols in advance to the Editor)_

Castro? You sure? Cos Che's granny was Irish, but I've never heard of Castro being one of ours as well...

[/off topic]


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## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

Idris2002 said:
			
		

> Castro's grandmother was from Co. Clare, Ireland, btw.
> 
> Wrt to Glyndwr; how much of his struggle was driven by the needs of the Welsh aristocracy, and how much by the needs of the masses?
> 
> ...



Quite so.

I very much doubt that the revolts of Tupac and Kataj Amaru would have been an influence on Mr Castro. In any case they did not use any form of geurilla tactic.

I agree totally that the Spainish experience would have been a great influence. Filtered through the experiences of San Martin and Bolivar.

However Mr Castros development of what became known as focoismo was largely as a result of experience following the intial defeat following his landing.

PS Lewislewis you like the Manics? Dearie me.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> PS Lewislewis you like the Manics? Dearie me.


Their early stuff was great.


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## lewislewis (Nov 21, 2005)

Agreed, lost track of them eventually. Seems they never had much of a problem reconciling class with nation    *waits for Neprimerimye's scientific argument against this*


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## neprimerimye (Nov 21, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Agreed, lost track of them eventually. Seems they never had much of a problem reconciling class with nation    *waits for Neprimerimye's scientific argument against this*



Err, I can't be bothered like. Y'know for all they cracked on about class they never actually got involved politically even when at Uni. More to the point I just think they're not very good.


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## editor (Nov 21, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> More to the point I just think they're not very good.


I'd wager they make a more interesting racket than you.


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## lewislewis (Nov 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Err, I can't be bothered like. Y'know for all they cracked on about class they never actually got involved politically even when at Uni. More to the point I just think they're not very good.



Some of the songs they wrote reached more people than a socialist newspaper would. Think on that.


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## Idris2002 (Nov 22, 2005)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> [off topic]_(apols in advance to the Editor)_
> 
> Castro? You sure? Cos Che's granny was Irish, but I've never heard of Castro being one of ours as well...
> 
> [/off topic]



I know Che had an Irish connection (there's going on 30000 Irish in Argentina) but I think it's Fidel who had the Irish granny.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 22, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Nothing 'went wrong' with Gwyn Alf his politics were from the first formed by his Welsh identity and his early training in the Popular Frontist politics opf the CPGB. In other words his politics were reformist right from the beginning but he was trained to express them using Marxist verbiage. His excellent book on Gramsci  transcends his own role as an activist and is tribute to his considerable skills as an academic. You should note that his view of the later Gramsci is fully in hermony with the views of the PCI Eurorevisionists.
> 
> Your cmment regarding herewake the Wake is crassly ignorant given that he had only regional importance whilest Glwy Dwr is of national import. Therefore Glwy Dwr is politically significant in terms of what might have been and what might still be. And I oppose Welsh nationalism you will note but contrary to you disdain both your tailism of Cymdeithas and this national chauvinism regarding Glyn Dwr
> 
> Finally many thanks for your list of the members of the SWP's Central Committee.



It's a serious point - Luke Skywalker may have more importance to young Welsh workers than Glyn Dwr . . .true, he does represent an obscurantist elitist ideology based on jedi religion and relies on the power of the force rather than the force of the power of the organised working class, but I would argue that we might be a better role model than Glyn Dwr. Maybe we could compromise and get George Lucas to make a film about Glyn Dwr.

You misunderstand the point about Hereward the Wake. He is a very similar figure to Glyn Dwr, he was part of the Anglo-Saxon guerilla resistance to the Norman Conquest, known locally as Harry of the Fens, his exploits in hiding in the marshes and holding out against the Normans for 10 years are impressive.

My point is that Hereward the Wake would hardly be considered relevant to today's struggles, yet Glyn Dwr, a figure from another age is held up as some sort of national hero. Personally, I think the militant marxism of the South Wales coalfield in the early twentieth century is far more inspirational than the exploits of a long dead aristocrat.

Can't recall tailing Cymdeithas - they probably wouldn't talk to me, at least, not in a language I could understand.

You're probably right about Gwyn Williams. Have you read Paulo Spriano's book? Gwyn Williams' "Proletarian Order" was originally the preface for this work, but it became longer than the book it was supposed to preface.

On the subject of Gramsci, I read an appalling article by Adam Price MP in Triban Coch in which he invokes the spirit of this revolutionary marxist to sanctify a coalition of Plaid with the Lib. Dems!!! The article contains the most outrageous abuse of Gramsci's philosophical concepts to support conclusions that would have Antonio spinning in his grave! I should note that Adam Price is quite impressively adept at using marxist terminology to dress up and romanticise the most reformist ideas


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## Brockway (Nov 22, 2005)

I've never seen _Star Wars _ (any of the franchise) so that's how relevant Luke Skywalker is to this particular Welsh person.

Surely you can see the symbolic value of OG to a colonized people. And we're as colonized today (we're speaking in Engleesh ain't we) as we've ever been.

Oh, and most representations I've seen of Robin Hood he is the Earl of Huntingdon - so he's a toff.

I quite like Ned Ludd mind - "Ooooooh smash it up, smash it up!" as someone once said.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 22, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I've never seen _Star Wars _ (any of the franchise) so that's how relevant Luke Skywalker is to this particular Welsh person.
> 
> Surely you can see the symbolic value of OG to a colonized people. And we're as colonized today (we're speaking in Engleesh ain't we) as we've ever been.
> 
> ...



Hate to disagree with you Brockway, but I don't think that the relationship between Wales and England _today_ can be characterised as colonial. 

Out of interest, last time I heard Adam Price MP speak, he spoke about "The National Liberation struggle of the Welsh People" - this is ironic, because when it comes to a genuine national liberation struggle such as that of the Iraqi people to free themselves from British and American imperialism and wish not to be a colony of the West - Plaid Cymru (despite their principled opposition to the war, from a liberal perspective) seriously fudge the question of ending the occupation and pulling out the troops.

What exactly is the symbolic value of OG to Welsh people today - that we should go into the hills and wage guerilla warfare? I don't see that he in anyway illuminates any current anti-capitalist struggles. He might well inspire nationalists as a figure in the struggle against the English - but I think the main and most worthwhile struggle today is of Welsh people against the system of neo-liberalism not against the English.

On Robin Hood, I had a similar argument with a member of the SWP. He argued that these popular heroes were always aristocrats who didn't overthrow the system but represented a rebellion of one section of the establishment against another. 

For example, at the end of the Robin Hood stories, the rightful King - Richard the Lionheart returns and sets everything right, rather than the poor emancipating themselves. 

However, I think Hobsbawm argues that the turning of Robin Hood into a rebel aristocrat and the emphasis on Richard the Lionheart were themes added to the original popular ballads - but I could be wrong about that.

Nevertheless, like Grimm's folk tales, the Robin Hood myth represents in symbolic form the demand of the poor for social justice and a different order  - so it has some emancipatory potential, even if it offers a false solution.

By the way, ever read any of Ernst Bloch? He's my favourite marxist.

PS. You may well be right about Luke Skywalker. Maybe Harry Potter is the true saviour of the Welsh people?


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## nwnm (Nov 22, 2005)

' "Ooooooh smash it up, smash it up!" as someone once said.' Well I'll be Damned


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## neprimerimye (Nov 22, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Maybe we could compromise and get George Lucas to make a film about Glyn Dwr.
> 
> You misunderstand the point about Hereward the Wake. He is a very similar figure to Glyn Dwr, he was part of the Anglo-Saxon guerilla resistance to the Norman Conquest, known locally as Harry of the Fens, his exploits in hiding in the marshes and holding out against the Normans for 10 years are impressive.
> 
> ...



If a film were ever made about Glyn Dwr i sincerely hope it is made by someone better than George Lucas!

No I don't think I mmissed your point regarding Glywn Dwr and Hereward. Perhaps you missed mine however? First off Hereward is a figure of local significance and Glyn Dwr is of national Welsh import. Now I suspect it would be difficult to take me for a Welsh nationalist but that does hold significance in terms of the development of the Welsh nation in later years. if for no other reason that it supplies a myth figure around which a purely national history can be cohered.

As a Marxist i find Glyn Dwr interesting because his short lived state illustrates one of the what might have beens of history. What if the English feudal state had been split by the Percys and a Welsh state had cohered? Of course speculation about such what if's is little more than fun and not to be taken too seriously. But what if....

Yes I have Spriano's work and very decent it is too. Its actually part of a very long series in italian of which we only have the single volume. His book on Gramsci is also worthy of a read and easily found btw.

Well I once had a chat with Gwyn Alf and his Marxism was very much of the old new left style influenced by the EuroStalinist reading of Gramsci. Rather oddly hw went through a short 'Maoist' stage but like many of his generation in and around the CPGB he was enamoured of Tito's Yugoslavia which led him to the Italian CP. Bit of a mess politically but a very creative mess! His Goya is good.

Is the Adam Price thing on line? No doubt his abuse of Gramsci comes via the CP/academic marxist fashion for the poor chap of a couple of decades back. I find it hard to imagine that he is adept in the field however.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2005)

so, not influenced by hoxha?


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## Brockway (Nov 22, 2005)

"Hate to disagree with you Brockway, but I don't think that the relationship between Wales and England today can be characterised as colonial."

Oh really? Thanks for putting me straight on that one East Anglian person. Note to self: learn Welsh; and Welsh history; and find out more about Welsh culture.

"What exactly is the symbolic value of OG to Welsh people today - that we should go into the hills and wage guerilla warfare?"

Well he stood up to the bully and that's a fine example to anyone. 

"but I think the main and most worthwhile struggle today is of Welsh people against the system of neo-liberalism not against the English."

Thanks for the advice East Anglian person I'll pass it on to my fellow Welsh people. Just been down to the local Spar here on my council estate and everyone was saying pretty much the same thing anyway. 

"By the way, ever read any of Ernst Bloch? He's my favourite marxist."

No. Is there any humour in his work? I'm a big fan of Wilhelm Reich myself.

"Maybe Harry Potter is the true saviour of the Welsh people?"

I hope you're wrong Udo - he's basically a middle-class anglicized version of young Merlin. If the English aren't imposing their culture on us, then they're nicking ours. Imperialist bar stewards - East Anglia excepted of course.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 23, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so, not influenced by hoxha?



Adam Price?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 23, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I'm a big fan of Wilhelm Reich myself.



But do you have an orgone accumulator? (Cue Hawkwind...)


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## Brockway (Nov 23, 2005)

I knocked one up in my back garden - cue _Cloudbusting_ by Kate Bush.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 23, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> "Hate to disagree with you Brockway, but I don't think that the relationship between Wales and England today can be characterised as colonial."
> 
> Oh really? Thanks for putting me straight on that one East Anglian person. Note to self: learn Welsh; and Welsh history; and find out more about Welsh culture.
> 
> ...



You seem to think that because I come from East Anglia, I couldn't possibly know anything about Wales.

Yet, precisely because I have lived in another country, I can tell you I just haven't noticed that people seem more oppressed here than in England.

Indeed, the overwhelming amount of people I have met here who lecture me on how oppressed Wales is, are not particularly poor but happen to live in big houses and be quite comfortably well off - yet they say, "Yes, I'm so oppressed, I may earn alot more than you, Udo, and own a big house, but I'm Welsh and I'm soooooo oppressed and my culture is surpressed!"

Of  course, not being Welsh and not owning a big house, what could I know about being opppressed? From what I've seen it sure sounds tough!

I like Willhelm Reich's early work where he tried quite a creative synthesis of marxism and freudianism - though for my money the best attempt (that actually works) at marrying marxism and psychoanalysis is the work of a guy called Eugene Wolfenstein, who deserves to be much more widely known. Two excellent works - "The Victims of Democracy" and "Psychoanalytic Marxism: A Groundwork". 

All this however has nothing to do with Glyn Dwr!


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> But do you have an orgone accumulator? (Cue Hawkwind...)



Probably Reich's worst idea - and they only seem to work in 1950s America.

I think Reich's later insanity shouldn't distract from the fact that he wrote some quite significant stuff earlier on, and as an activist his attempt to get the socialist movement to take up sexual politics was quite ahead of its time


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 23, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Is the Adam Price thing on line? No doubt his abuse of Gramsci comes via the CP/academic marxist fashion for the poor chap of a couple of decades back. I find it hard to imagine that he is adept in the field however.



Adam Price article here: http://www.tribancoch.com/article1.html

He does a quite standard use (or abuse) of Gramsci's concept of the historic bloc and creating hegemony without realising that Gramci was a revolutionary marxist and while he might talk about forming a coalition of the working class with other forces - this coalition had to be on the terms of the interest of workers

I was doing an Anti-Nazi League stall at Plaid Cymru's National Conference, a couple of years ago, and attended a couple of fringe meetings including one with him speaking alongside Rosie Kane (SSP) and Jill Evans MEP and was quite surprised at how good he was at employing marxist rhetoric and adopting socialist language (while in practice being a soft-left social democrat) - he's actually quite a good speaker and managed to sound quite radical and anti-capitalist.

In his speech, he talked about "Socialism from Below", experiments in participatory grassroots democracy in Kerala and Porto Alegre (I was going to point out the limits of these experiments, but as a non-Plaid member decided not to speak), quoted Lenin and Gramsci, alluded to Marx's phrase that "the emancipation of the working class was the act of the working class itself". Unfortunately, he didn't actually practically explain how Plaid would implement socialism from below. He made the traditional talk of Plaid being "de-centralist socialists" which seems to mean little except that they want government from Cardiff Bay rather than Westminster. I recall once a member of the SWP asking if decentralism would mean that Plaid would support workers occupuying their workplaces only to be rebuked that Plaid was a "law abiding constitutional party" supporting bourgeois democracy.

The thrust of my criticism is that Adam Price uses phrases from the socialist lexicon with out explaining how they will be implemented or really seriously supporting a real workers democracy.

It was when he started talking about being a "Liberation Nationalist", the "Welsh national liberation movement" and quoting James Connolly as if Dublin, Easter 1916 was a similar game to Wales in 2005 that I raised an eyebrow


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## Brockway (Nov 23, 2005)

> You seem to think that because I come from East Anglia, I couldn't possibly know anything about Wales.
> 
> Yet, precisely because I have lived in another country, I can tell you I just haven't noticed that people seem more oppressed here than in England. QUOTE]
> 
> ...


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 23, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> > You seem to think that because I come from East Anglia, I couldn't possibly know anything about Wales.
> >
> > Yet, precisely because I have lived in another country, I can tell you I just haven't noticed that people seem more oppressed here than in England. QUOTE]
> >
> ...


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## chilango (Nov 23, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Brockway said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Brockway (Nov 23, 2005)

Like I said Udo, not every Welsh speaker is posh. And besides - is wealth the only criteria by which you measure well-being? That's a bit of a sad state of affairs isn't it? 

As for Cardiff/Grozny you should visit downtown Gabalfa occasionally. Anyway it's the principle I'm on about - it is nails down a blackboard to me, to be lectured by an English person about my Welshness. And to be told, essentially, that it means fuck all. You'll never win the 'you're not colonized' argument, as far as I'm concerned, until we conduct this conversation in Welsh.

Of course many Welsh people reject nationalism - most Welsh people are so fucked up and divorced from their own history (which we don't get taught in school), language and culture that they don't know if they are Welsh, English, Britonic or British. Incidentally, having lived in England I was always surprised by the amount of Englanders who genuinely believed in an 'eternal England' and were blissfully unaware that most of you arrived here from Germany (or whatever it was called then) as colonizers. 

In the video for _Cloudbusting_ by Kate Bush which is of course about Wilhelm Reich, you'll see a book sticking out of Donald Sutherland's (who plays Wilhelm) jacket pocket which is the biography written by his son (played by Kate Bush) the title of which escapes me.

Older people and Socialists always ask me if I'm related to Fenner Brockway; and younger people ask me if I'm related to camp weatherman Derek Brockway. As far as I know I'm related to neither. Which is a shame.


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## lewislewis (Nov 23, 2005)

Exactly, we're not even taught to be Welsh, and when we are its as a kind of quaint region-nation 'proud to be Welsh but also British' lie.

So the justness of the national liberation struggle depends on the amount of violence/unrest taking place?

I could extract that principle and say the justness of Udo's class struggle depends on the amount of violence/unrest taking place...crikey Udo, Welsh workplaces in 2005 aren't like 1917 Russia.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Brockway said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Exactly, we're not even taught to be Welsh, and when we are its as a kind of quaint region-nation 'proud to be Welsh but also British' lie.



Why would one need to be taught to be Welsh?

Can one not choose one's own identity without having it thrust upon one?

If so I choose first not to be British and secondly I choose not to be Welsh.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Of course many Welsh people reject nationalism - most Welsh people are so fucked up and divorced from their own history (which we don't get taught in school), language and culture that they don't know if they are Welsh, English, Britonic or British. Incidentally, having lived in England I was always surprised by the amount of Englanders who genuinely believed in an 'eternal England' and were blissfully unaware that most of you arrived here from Germany (or whatever it was called then) as colonizers.
> 
> Older people and Socialists always ask me if I'm related to Fenner Brockway; and younger people ask me if I'm related to camp weatherman Derek Brockway. As far as I know I'm related to neither. Which is a shame.



Oddly enough I was taught Welsh history at my comprehensive school and have read far more since. But I reject the notion that the history of petty princelings and schismatic sects is my history. The history I choose to identify with is the history of those who fought oppression and exploitation from Spartacus onward.

Funnily neough Fenner Brockway once stood for election in Cardiff. In 1943 he stood as the candidate of the old Independent Labour Party against the Tory Party. His Majestys 'Communist' Party campaigned against Brockway and for the Tory candidate.


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## nwnm (Nov 24, 2005)

"So the justness of the national liberation struggle depends on the amount of violence/unrest taking place?" No, there actually has to BE one. The ruling class elements in Wales are happily ensconced with their partners in crime in England and Scotland. The Welsh Middle class may pay a little lip service to the language question, (but it has to be pointed out that some of those who run small businesses can't be bothered implementing bilingualism - and get away with it due to inadequacies in the current Language Act), but are more than reconciled to a comfortable life under the status quo. They are not in any way comparable to the middle class elements that overthrew the Batista regime in Cuba (and no, I don't have any illusions that the place is a socialist island - but welcome the fact that it is still a thorn in the side of the US).  

"South Wales is consistently one of the poorest parts of the UK" Hmmm... try Easterhouse in Scotland, some parts of the East End of London where the swetshops are or even the North east of England where the cotton mills etc have closed and racism is on the rise. Actually S Wales at the moment is very similar to London's Docklands - we have pockets of extreme poverty side by side with pockets of extreme/grotesque affluence.

The real losers in this are of course the working class. And its not out of 'cultural oppression', its because, unlike those S4C/Pontcanna types, their kids don't get access or choice about having a decent bilingual education if they so choose, and if they do speak Welsh end up working in companies who's attitude to any language other than English is piss poor. That is why I support the fight for a new Welsh Language Act, and recognise that even the limited act we have now was a product of struggle. But I see it as part of a wider struggle for decent education (in whatever language people express a need to learn in), a decent health service and not having our pensions stolen from us. I see it as a class issue (literally and politically   )


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## colacho (Nov 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> focoismo



foquismo, actually, a total fucking disaster in most of Latin America. As for Fidel and Glyndwr, who cares whether Fidel thought Glyndwr was important or not? After all, he's the guy who did his best to screw up the Angolan war. And then shot the guy who did it right...


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## Larry O'Hara (Nov 24, 2005)

*It seems...*

many posters here aren't actually aware of the extended attempts, over 7 centuries, by the English ruling class (from Edward I 1283 onwards) to exterminate Welsh consciousness, culture, language & identity, compounded by Tudor centralisation.  Certainly there is a rich vein of socialist radicalism such as the Rebecca riots, Miner's next Step & so on, even up to & including some Red outposts.  To be fully commended.  The fact is though, also, that the history of Owain Glyndwr & the his mythical status in the sense of not being captured is important too.  While Meibion Glyndwr Mark II had the hallmarks of state infiltration/manipulation, Mark I MG  I personally fully supported--'come home to a real fire' is still a slogan that stays in the memory. 

 It ill behoves 'Brit Leftists' (in ideology, not necessarily background) to make patronising comments about whether Welsh medieval struggles retrospectively fit modern-day notions of delegate-based 'workers councils' & suchlike.  As somebody rightly says, it is not a question of cherry-picking--Welsh independence is not, & should not be, something Brit Leftists quibble about, but of course they will.  I personally do have a query, which applies also to the SNP--'Independence Within Europe' (the EU) is an oxymoron, like 'Life within death'.  I far prefer older policies of genuine independence from the British state and the EU.  Which policy begs the interesting socio-economic/ecological questions of how to build a sustainable non-exploitative economy and society, that is distinctly 21st Century Welsh but also draws on the best insights from libertarian socialism, anarchism & Green politics.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 24, 2005)

What is ironic and offensive is that Chilango attacks us for not supporting the Welsh National Liberation struggle - which doesn't really exist, but can't bring himself to support a genuine resistance to imperialism in Iraq.

Apparently, the relationship between Wales and England is colonial, but the relationship between Iraq and the US/UK is . . . he doesn't know. 

Frankly, Chilango, the question today, is are you with US/UK imperialism or are you with the right of Iraqis to resist occupation and economic colonialism - your patronising comments on another thread are classic "white man's burden" stuff.

What's happening in Iraq is classic imperialism, it happened in the Congo, India, and Malaya in the last 200 years.

I recall Haifa Zangana, an Iraqi Novelist tortured under the Saddam regime bluntly stated at a War on Want conference - "If it wasn't for the courageous Iraqi resistance, Iraq would now just be one big corporation".

2 rich countries essentially invade and occupy another country to control it's natural resource - oil and to further their geo-political aims. 

Who controls oil revenue in Iraq - President Talabani? The "Iraqi Parliament"? Perhaps even Iraqis appointed by the Occupation?

Of course not.

For the next 5 years, oil revenue and how it is spent will be controlled by a commission handpicked by US Viceroy, Paul Bremer made up of 10 foreigners and 1 Iraqi.

The US has privatised 200 public utilities in Iraq and sold them on the cheap to US multinationals. It has change Iraq Law, so that 100% of the money made from these public utilities can be taken out of the country. The front page of the Independent yesterday highlighted how the puppet government is fast tracking the process of handing over Iraq's economy to US multinationals.

Unlike Wales: 160,000 troops are stationed in Iraq, immune from prosecution by any Iraqi court.

Unlike Wales: The US is constructing 15 permanent military bases to hold down the native population and from which to dominate the whole Middle East.

Unlike Wales: 85% of the Iraqi population want foreign (including Welsh) troops out and demand genuine self-determination.

I'm surprised Chilango that when you were a member of the SWP you didn't read the statement in the newspaper: "We support all _genuine _ national liberation struggles".

Most people can see that their is no comparison between the situation of Chechens, Palestinians, Kurds, Tibetans, Kashmiris, Iraqis or even Haitians or Catholics in the North of Ireland and the situation of the Welsh - it's obvious!


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 24, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Why would one need to be taught to be Welsh?
> 
> Can one not choose one's own identity without having it thrust upon one?
> 
> If so I choose first not to be British and secondly I choose not to be Welsh.



The concept of national identity and Lewislewis's wish to impose upon us "Welshness" is reactionary. 

The purpose of national identities is to obscure over the fundamental divide in society between rich and poor. And let the workers know that they can feel content because they are part of the elite group.

Being told that you are Welsh and you can be proud of it, is kind of a psychological compensation for being exploited and living in a crap society - but if we are going to improve things then we need to dispense with this kind of crutch. I'm not sure why some people are so emotionally and psychologically insecure that they need to wear a badge to make them feel good or life meaningful.


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## Brockway (Nov 24, 2005)

> Can one not choose one's own identity without having it thrust upon one?



Definitely. Most of the youth round where I live have decided to be a Los Angeles street gang.

I didn't know about the Fenner/Cardiff link - I'll have to do a bit of reading up on that. Nice one.


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## Brockway (Nov 24, 2005)

"Unlike Wales: 160,000 troops are stationed in Iraq, immune from prosecution by any Iraqi court.

Unlike Wales: The US is constructing 15 permanent military bases to hold down the native population and from which to dominate the whole Middle East.

Unlike Wales: 85% of the Iraqi population want foreign (including Welsh) troops out and demand genuine self-determination."

Udo, we've had plenty of English troops here in the past.

You can still see the English military bases dotted around Wales
 - they're called castles.

It's a sad irony that the defeated people often end up (through economic necessity) having to fight for the colonizer. We've been cannon fodder for the English for centuries.

Maybe you think because we haven't got English troops on our street today we should just move on and accept our fate? At what point should the Iraqis move on? Ten years from now, a hundred years, or a thousand? Or perhaps when they are speaking English in an American accent.


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## Belushi (Nov 24, 2005)

> Udo, we've had plenty of English troops here in the past.



Aye in 1911 and 1926 to start with. 

My Grandad used to tell me about them sending the troops in at Glynneath when he was a lad when the miners there locked out the bosses and set up their own soviet.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 24, 2005)

> Funnily enough William Burroughs had an authentic orgone accumulator in his back garden. I know someone who saw it.



Who's that mate???



> it must be quite hard being culturally oppressed with a nice big house, a well paid job and a middle class background -



I come from a very comfortable background, but it doesn't alter the fact that I can't speak Welsh or that my mamgu was beaten for speaking it.

Cultural oppression and financial oppression can be seperate, although I wouldn't describe myself as being oppressed because of it, maybe mildy peeved.



> Hate to disagree with you Brockway, but I don't think that the relationship between Wales and England today can be characterised as colonial.



Oh, How many people from Butetown get to work in the bay and all it's developments? 

Remember Peter Law and English Labour knows best for it's dominions?



> Indeed, the overwhelming amount of people I have met here who lecture me on how oppressed Wales is, are not particularly poor but happen to live in big houses and be quite comfortably well off - yet they say, "Yes, I'm so oppressed, I may earn alot more than you, Udo, and own a big house, but I'm Welsh and I'm soooooo oppressed and my culture is surpressed!"



You want to get out more, I've been here 40 years and never hear that type of thing.


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## Belushi (Nov 24, 2005)

> "South Wales is consistently one of the poorest parts of the UK" Hmmm... try Easterhouse in Scotland, some parts of the East End of London where the swetshops are or even the North east of England where the cotton mills etc have closed and racism is on the rise. Actually S Wales at the moment is very similar to London's Docklands - we have pockets of extreme poverty side by side with pockets of extreme/grotesque affluence.



According to this BBC Report Wales has the highest level of children living in poverty in the UK.



> Wales has the highest rate of child poverty in the UK (33%)
> Wales has the highest rate of teenage pregnancy in Europe
> The youth unemployment rate is 28.6%
> Wales has more pensioners than the rest of the UK, and half have annual incomes of less than £10,000.


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## Udo Erasmus (Nov 24, 2005)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Oh, How many people from Butetown get to work in the bay and all it's developments?
> 
> Remember Peter Law and English Labour knows best for it's dominions?
> 
> .



You could say the same about the Canary Wharf development which is cheek by jowl with Tower Hamlets, the poorest borough in England. This is an issue of class not nation.

The selection of Maggie Jones had nothing to do with England imposing candidates on Wales or nationalism - it was to do with New Labour wanting to replace a fairly left wing MP with a New Labour clone - incidentally, both Llew Smith and Peter Law are hostile to nationalism, as indeed have most Welsh MPs from that area including most famously Aneurin Bevan - a figure (who for all his reformist shortcomings) is far more significant than Gwynfor Evans - a political pygmy unknown outside of Wales.

The same process of "women-only shortlists" being imposed on left wing constituency parties happened in England too.


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## niclas (Nov 24, 2005)

There's one big difference between Wales and Iraq that Udo hasn't pointed out - we live in Wales and can do something about conditions here.

 Unless Udo is planning to send International Brigades to help the Iraqi resistance, then there's a limit to what can be done in terms of solidarity beyond marching in ever decreasing circles around London (a practical suggestion - when you have a 2m strong march, don't try to repeat it 6 months later, it'll look crap. Use your imagination and try something different FFS)

 Trying to juxtapose the situation in Wales with Iraq, as Udo does, is insulting to both the Iraqis and Welsh. Both are nations that have suffered colonial oppression, both are divided by class. In both cases, the majority on this list (I hope) would want to see workers in both nations taking control over their own lives, workplaces and communities.

 That task has to be the work of the Iraqi working class and the Welsh working class themselves. I would suggest that the job of any decent socialist/anarchist/republican is to work within their communities and workplaces to ensure that happens.

 As to Owain Glyndwr's relevance, the example of the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela is instructive. Chavez is using the imagery of  Bolivar the liberator not because he was a socialist but because he symbolised one kind of liberation. I don't see any problem in using Glyndwr in the same way.


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## Brockway (Nov 24, 2005)

> Who's that mate???



Jon Langford out of the Mekons. 

Shit result the other night. Loovens out - relegation battle beckons. Can't believe the Jacks' crowds! Hope they go up though, just for the derby games.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Nov 24, 2005)

The other point about Iraq ( personally speaking ) , and we're getting way off topic now, is that it was our fuck up to go in there, so to piss off now the going is tough and leave it to a civil war seems even worse to me.

See I never knew he was from Newport growing up , thought they were Leeds.


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## Brockway (Nov 24, 2005)

Gentleman Taff met him when he was in _The Three Johns _ apparently.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

niclas said:
			
		

> As to Owain Glyndwr's relevance, the example of the Bolivarian revolution in Venezuela is instructive. Chavez is using the imagery of  Bolivar the liberator not because he was a socialist but because he symbolised one kind of liberation. I don't see any problem in using Glyndwr in the same way.



The tropuble qwith the above is that using the imagery of historical figures such as Bolivar or Glyn Dwr means falsifing the historical record and/or forcing present day struggles into historical templates which do not fit reality.

Thus Welsh nationalists using Glyn Dwr's struggle must portray that struggle as a straight forward fight for a national state and an independent nation. But the historical record reveals a Glyn Dwr who fought for the English feudal monarchy and until slighted was content to function as a local representative of that regime. The struggle itself reveals that once engaged in a fight that was literarly life or death that he was more and more forced into reliance on the 'popular masses'. In plain terms like many anothe struggle his was forced to radicalise by events. What must also be understood is that Glyn Dwr's struggle for an independent Welsh state failed and cannot be repeated in iether form or content. In which case the imagery if expropriated by Welsh nationalists is meaningless.

Similarly Bolivars struggle cannot be repeated and the imagery and symbolism is of no practical use to the masses. But it is of use to Chavez who can use that symbolism to portray himself as a caudillo - in Marxian terms a Bonapartist type figure - raised above society and hence the struggle of the classes. This limits and inhibits the development of the struggle which is best progressed by reliance on the workers and oppressed themselves. In fact were it not for the intervention of the masses the coup attempt of some months back would have been succesfull.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 24, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The concept of national identity and Lewislewis's wish to impose upon us "Welshness" is reactionary.
> 
> The purpose of national identities is to obscure over the fundamental divide in society between rich and poor. And let the workers know that they can feel content because they are part of the elite group.
> 
> Being told that you are Welsh and you can be proud of it, is kind of a psychological compensation for being exploited and living in a crap society - but if we are going to improve things then we need to dispense with this kind of crutch. I'm not sure why some people are so emotionally and psychologically insecure that they need to wear a badge to make them feel good or life meaningful.



A curiously one sided and therefore non-dialectical formulation Udo. From a Marxist point of view nations are reactionary as nation states are a fetter on the relations of production. Historially they belong to the era of class society which we fight against.

This does not mean that at all times and in all places nations, still less national identities, are automatically to be viewed as reactionary and therefore oppsed (that would be what Nwnmcompoop wrongly calls Luxemburgism). It does mean that we recognise that only those nations which are oppressed and whose struggles do not obstruct the social revolution are supportable.

Ths a growth in national consciousness in say Iraq, of which there is no evidence btw, would be a progressive development given the continuing imperialist occupation of that country. Even in Wales the development of national consciousness in the past few decades is arguably a reaction to the real oppression of Welsh speakers in the past (to a far lesser degree even today) and is also a result of the decay of the labourite project. It is not wholly or unambigously reactionary.

National identity is in this respect rather similar to religious feelings in that it is not based on objective material circumstances - in the case of those nations which are not subject to oppression mark you - as is the case with class consciousness and can serve as both an opiate concealing the alienation produced by class society and - in oppressed nations - as an ideology of resistance. In all cases however it is for Marxists a false consciousness.


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## lewislewis (Nov 24, 2005)

You're belief in Iraqi nationalism (if it happened) as a weapon against UK imperialism totally contradcits your belief in Welsh nationalism as a weapon against UK imperialism.


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## lewislewis (Nov 24, 2005)

So assuming (rightly) the difference between Nations and Nation-States...which of these do you think is destined to disappear?

The Nation itself will never disappear. It is an adaptable and evolutionary organic body which draws together people of a shared cultural heritage, common interest or historical experience. 

Nation-States for all their shortcomings are essential to ensure the interests of each nation are contained within an independent polity. I agree that people should organise across national boundaries where necessary, in terms of international law, free movement of people (to match the free movement of money which has been forced on us by globalisation) and free movement of information.


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## chilango (Nov 24, 2005)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> What is ironic and offensive is that Chilango attacks us for not supporting the Welsh National Liberation struggle -




Not quite. I am attacking you for your pick n mix attitude towards national liberation. 

I´m not sure how this is either ironic or offensive



> which doesn't really exist, but can't bring himself to support a genuine resistance to imperialism in Iraq.



I can´t bring myself to support  islamist, indiscriminate, reactionary butchers.

Besides is my lack of support such a loss for them anyway? I mean as pointed out by someone else its not like the suppoters of the resistancesuch as yourself are off to join the fighting is it?



> Apparently, the relationship between Wales and England is colonial, but the relationship between Iraq and the US/UK is . . . he doesn't know.



The relationship between England and Wales is colonial? I never said that, although i would argue that there are still elements of that existing. People get sack for speaking their indigenous language (Welsh) at work by a foreign (English) boss who can´t speak it. Still happens. Just one example.   

The realtionshpip between US/UK and Iraq is pretty similar to the realtionship between (say) the US and Colombia I don´t notice you cheerleading the FARC or denouncing the ELN for holding peacetalks. Why not?   



> Frankly, Chilango, the question today, is are you with US/UK imperialism or are you with the right of Iraqis to resist occupation and economic colonialism



Its that simple? Whatever happened to neither Washington nor Moscow? eh?

yeah, the Iraqis have the right to resist, and we have the right condemn reactionary procapitalist antiworker movements who happen to be involved.



> - your patronising comments on another thread are classic "white man's burden" stuff.



Can you link or quote? - so I can explain/apologise/reject as appropriate.

I don´t intend to patronise - just to try and provoke slightly more rigorous argument rather than simplistic sloganeering.



> What's happening in Iraq is classic imperialism, it happened in the Congo, India, and Malaya in the last 200 years.



Is it? So? Like I said I´m not defending the US.



> I recall Haifa Zangana, an Iraqi Novelist tortured under the Saddam regime bluntly stated at a War on Want conference - "If it wasn't for the courageous Iraqi resistance, Iraq would now just be one big corporation".



...and if the insurgents come to power will an Islamic regime be any different? Would it follow such beacons of anti imperialism as Saudi, Sudan or Iran?



> 2 rich countries essentially invade and occupy another country to control it's natural resource - oil and to further their geo-political aims.



Yeah. Is anyone disagreeing with this? Are any of us actually saying the US are right? Course not.



> Who controls oil revenue in Iraq - President Talabani? The "Iraqi Parliament"? Perhaps even Iraqis appointed by the Occupation?
> 
> Of course not.
> 
> For the next 5 years, oil revenue and how it is spent will be controlled by a commission handpicked by US Viceroy, Paul Bremer made up of 10 foreigners and 1 Iraqi.



I repeat is putting this decision in the hands of a right wing islamist movement going to be something much better? something selfproclaimed revolutionary socialists such as yourself should advocate?



> The US has privatised 200 public utilities in Iraq and sold them on the cheap to US multinationals. It has change Iraq Law, so that 100% of the money made from these public utilities can be taken out of the country. The front page of the Independent yesterday highlighted how the puppet government is fast tracking the process of handing over Iraq's economy to US multinationals.



so? they´re bad! we know..... 



> Unlike Wales: ......


 banalities removed....

Yeah Wales and Iraq are different. (see below)



> I'm surprised Chilango that when you were a member of the SWP you didn't read the statement in the newspaper: "We support all _genuine _ national liberation struggles".



How do you define "genuine?



> Most people can see that their is no comparison between the situation of Chechens, Palestinians, Kurds, Tibetans, Kashmiris, Iraqis or even Haitians or Catholics in the North of Ireland and the situation of the Welsh - it's obvious!



Nor is there that much in common with situations in N Ireland, Tibet , Chechnya and Haiti but you seem happy to lump them in together. What are the comon denominators? 

Would you include the Basque Country? Corsica? Galiza? Puerto Rico?


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## Dic Penderyn (Nov 24, 2005)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Aye in 1911 and 1926 to start with.
> 
> My Grandad used to tell me about them sending the troops in at Glynneath when he was a lad when the miners there locked out the bosses and set up their own soviet.




My great-grandfather was one of them, he got beaten up so badly in the 1926 strike he spent a year unable to walk and never worked again. My grandad used to tell me about the disputes, they sounded like full on warfare.


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## lewislewis (Nov 24, 2005)

I really don't understand Udo...he doesn't think peaceful methods are genuine, but he'd applaud us if we were blowing people up with car bombs?


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## neprimerimye (Nov 25, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> So assuming (rightly) the difference between Nations and Nation-States...which of these do you think is destined to disappear?
> 
> The Nation itself will never disappear. It is an adaptable and evolutionary organic body which draws together people of a shared cultural heritage, common interest or historical experience.
> 
> Nation-States for all their shortcomings are essential to ensure the interests of each nation are contained within an independent polity. I agree that people should organise across national boundaries where necessary, in terms of international law, free movement of people (to match the free movement of money which has been forced on us by globalisation) and free movement of information.



I'm presuming this question is directed at me. If so then it is my contention that if the working class can come to power and set humanity on the road to communism then both nations and nation ststes will in the course of time cease to exist. The only alternatives to this are nuclear devastation or a descent into barbarism that will make the Third Reich look like a kiddies party.

Basically Marxism argues that nations, in the sense that we know them today, only came into being with the capitalist epoch. They are then relatively recent organisms and not in any sense essential to human culture or society in any way.

Similarly Marxism argues that the state only came into being with class society and was therefore unknown for the majority of the time Man has been around. Marxism further contends that the state will always function as the tool of the ruling class and must be abolished in order for a classless society to come into being.

It follows that Marxism is therefore opposed to nation states as such. In fact nation states are actually a rarity with most such states so described actually containing significant minorities of one kind or another. Thus the british state contains Wales and Scotland and France contains northern Euskadi and Brittany. There are also regions in many nation states which do not easily fit into the templates offered us by nationalists. then we have dispersed national minorities such as the Sinti and Roma througout much of Europe. And to add to this list there are often castes, such as the barakumin in japan, who are frequently considered not to belong to the nation and have am infererior status. All this and I've not ven mentioned multinational states or migrants!

Finally you write that "which draws together people of a shared cultural heritage, common interest or historical experience" but this definition is actually prety meaningless in respect of Wales. the shared historical experience which all, excepting the most recent of immigrants, have is with britain as a whole as the historical experience of specific groups and regions in Wales is as disparate as those of Britain as a whole, the Welsh nation has no common interest as long as Welsh workers do not have a common interest with the bourgeoisie including those members of that class of Welsh nationality and out cultural heritage is very much divided by language and is not therefore common to us all.


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## nwnm (Nov 25, 2005)

"People get sack for speaking their indigenous language (Welsh) at work by a foreign (English) boss who can´t speak it. Still happens. Just one example." Oh Chilango, I can smell the smoke and see the mirrors... So Welsh bosses don't do this? And they never use the Loophole in the current Language Act to suppress the use of Welsh by not producing Bilingual documentation etc. One of the oldest tricks in the Welsh Nationalist book is to go on about 
'English' bosses - as though the people in Wales automatically change their nationality if they're a member of the boss class. As a genius once wrote "Every day when I wake up I thank the Lord I'm Welsh ... and then I remember Michael Howard, Geoffrey Howe, Michael Heseltine, and bloody Neil Kinnock".


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## Brockway (Nov 25, 2005)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> I'm presuming this question is directed at me. If so then it is my contention that if the working class can come to power and set humanity on the road to communism then both nations and nation ststes will in the course of time cease to exist. The only alternatives to this are nuclear devastation or a descent into barbarism that will make the Third Reich look like a kiddies party.



The only alternatives Nep? Come on, bit melodramatic isn't it? Here's another alternative: things will muddle along pretty much as they are.

Incidentally, I can't see much evidence of the workers round by me looking to take power and effect a world revolution in which states no longer exist. You'd have to drag them away from Sky TV; their PSPs; pimping their rides; ganja; and fags first.

Assuming your stateless world comes to pass Nep, here are some questions for you: 

1. Will their be a football league? Would it be a world league? Would it be hierarchical with promotion and relegation?
2. Will women be allowed to wear make-up?
3. Would there be a police force?
4. Will there be pornography?
5. What language will everyone be speaking in Africa?


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## chilango (Nov 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "People get sack for speaking their indigenous language (Welsh) at work by a foreign (English) boss who can´t speak it. Still happens. Just one example." Oh Chilango, I can smell the smoke and see the mirrors... So Welsh bosses don't do this? And they never use the Loophole in the current Language Act to suppress the use of Welsh by not producing Bilingual documentation etc. One of the oldest tricks in the Welsh Nationalist book is to go on about
> 'English' bosses - as though the people in Wales automatically change their nationality if they're a member of the boss class. As a genius once wrote "Every day when I wake up I thank the Lord I'm Welsh ... and then I remember Michael Howard, Geoffrey Howe, Michael Heseltine, and bloody Neil Kinnock".



3 wise monkeys?

The cases I reffered to both involved Englsi bosses - they were not Welsh. They had been parachuted in by the companies in question. You can pretend it didn`t happen if it makes you feel more comfortable.

Of course you get Welsh bosses.

You get Iraqi bosses too - does that ruin your support for the insurgents? apparently not.


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## neprimerimye (Nov 25, 2005)

Brockway said:
			
		

> The only alternatives Nep? Come on, bit melodramatic isn't it? Here's another alternative: things will muddle along pretty much as they are.
> 
> Incidentally, I can't see much evidence of the workers round by me looking to take power and effect a world revolution in which states no longer exist. You'd have to drag them away from Sky TV; their PSPs; pimping their rides; ganja; and fags first.
> 
> ...



Sure things can muddle along as they do at present thats absolutely true. But at some point in the future the contradictions built into bourgeois society will lead to a descent into a darkness from which man will not emerge. The recent crop of wars and man made 'natural' disasters are but a foretaste of the disasters waiting round the corner. Course you might be lucky and die before the full consequences of this decadent society emerge in their full ferocity but emerge they will.

That the working classes are at present more concerned with fin de siecle nano-celeb culture than with revolution is true. But thats why you should be a communist my friend. Like the MC5 said you have five seconds to decide....

As for your questions.

1/ I don't know what this 'football league' is so I can hardly know if it will exist at some undefined point in the future.

2/ Yes and so will you if you wish.

3/ If private property no longer exists and want is a thing of the past then the state too will not exist.

4/ Surely that depends on what you mean by pornography? However as gender/sex oppression would be a thing of the past I would argue that exploitative imagery would no longer find an audience.

5/ No idea.


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## lewislewis (Nov 25, 2005)

Sounds like a cool idea, except I can only see this website because of my nice capitalist lap-top. 
Will there be lap-tops?
Will there be coke and other soft drinks?
How will people pay for goods?
Will there be churches/mosques?
Well everybody have to work?


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## nwnm (Nov 25, 2005)

"Of course you get Welsh bosses." And they abuse the system in the same way - correct?

"You get Iraqi bosses too - does that ruin your support for the insurgents? apparently not." Iraqi bosses are identifiable by their slavish support for the US, are they not? (Lets face it, in the current climate they wouldn't be bosses for long if they didn't...) So that doesn't ruin anyones support for the Iraqi resistance my myopic little friend.
Bet you would have been fun to be around during the Vietnam war. Student radicalism would have been at its height and you would have been handing out leaflets (if anything) explaining why you weren't marching..... or maybe shouting 'hot chocalate - drinking chocolate!'


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## chilango (Nov 25, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> "Of course you get Welsh bosses." And they abuse the system in the same way - correct?
> 
> "You get Iraqi bosses too - does that ruin your support for the insurgents? apparently not." Iraqi bosses are identifiable by their slavish support for the US, are they not? (Lets face it, in the current climate they wouldn't be bosses for long if they didn't...) So that doesn't ruin anyones support for the Iraqi resistance my myopic little friend.
> Bet you would have been fun to be around during the Vietnam war. Student radicalism would have been at its height and you would have been handing out leaflets (if anything) explaining why you weren't marching..... or maybe shouting 'hot chocalate - drinking chocolate!'



My point is if the resistance wins. There will be Iraqi bosses every bit as bad  - if not worse if experienec of Islamist regimes tells us anything - as the US ones.

...and don´t think for a second the US won´t cut a deal with them if it suits. They used to list Sudan as a terrorist state, but they fear missing out on the oil there so thatsbeen forgotten. As would your heroic antimperialism.


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## nwnm (Nov 25, 2005)

But the point is that if the Iraqi resistance won (ie US/British forces withdrew) it would unleash all sorts of forces not just Islamic ones - and not just in Iraq. For a start it would bolster the confidence of whole sections of the population of the middle east. Imagine the impact it could have on a workers movement in saudi Arabia and Egypt which still exist (more clandestinely in Saudi obviously) despite suppression by the state. Imagine the destabilisation it could cause throughout the middle east and the impact on the Palestine issue, and the problems it would cause Bush's other allies.

"don't think for a second the US won´t cut a deal with them if it suits" If they pulled out of Iraq they may be in no position to cut a deal with anyone for quite some time. The political impact would be devastating - Bush's future is looking shaky enough as it is. Withdrawal from Iraq could lead to Vietnam syndrome Mk2. There's an old story that after the Vietnam war, a US president was considering sending troops to Angola, only to be sharply rebuked by one of his aides, who pointed out the scale of the anti war movement and the involvement of the military in this "besides" he said "Most of our GI's are black.... exactly who's side d'you think they'll be on?"  Withdrawal from Iraq would almost certainly finish off Blair if the back bench revolts don't get him first. Look at the bigger picture mate.....


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## neprimerimye (Nov 26, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Sounds like a cool idea, except I can only see this website because of my nice capitalist lap-top.
> Will there be lap-tops?
> Will there be coke and other soft drinks?
> How will people pay for goods?
> ...



No cos lap tops will become outdated, even under capitalism.
I don't know or care.
Everything will be free.
No.
No work will be abolished.


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