# Class dynamics on student protest



## revlon (Nov 29, 2010)

The female student who took it upon herslf to block people attacking the abandoned police van at the demo in Whitehall, she's studying at the Courtauld Institute of Art in London, ex public school, dad's head of press for the City of London. 

Am i being unduly noxious towards her when i say it was typical middle class arrogance that allowed her to feel she could do that? Or is she just a feisty teen with a bit of gumption?

Interview with her in the telegraph:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/educationnews/8164724/The-true-bravery-of-the-student-who-stood-up-to-the-protest-mob.html


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

_What's bred in the bone will come out in the flesh_


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## TopCat (Nov 29, 2010)

revlon said:


> The female student who took it upon herslf to block people attacking the abandoned police van at the demo in Whitehall, she's studying at the Courtauld Institute of Art in London, ex public school, dad's head of press for the City of London.
> 
> Am i being unduly noxious towards her when i say it was typical middle class arrogance that allowed her to feel she could do that? Or is she just a feisty teen with a bit of gumption?
> 
> ...



Are you surprised?


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## DotCommunist (Nov 29, 2010)

quite literally guarding the van


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## rutabowa (Nov 29, 2010)

dunno i bet some of the ones attacking the van were public school too... seems like a bit of a red herring to me.


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## Kanda (Nov 29, 2010)

I thought it was this lot protecting the van:


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## Doctor Carrot (Nov 29, 2010)

Kanda said:


> I thought it was this lot protecting the van:


 
Yeah but that girl is in the wrong class, goes to the wrong type of school and has the wrong skin colour to be interviewed by the telegraph.


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## moon23 (Nov 29, 2010)

Yes I suspect a lot of the protestors and  'anarchists' are from rich middle-class backgrounds. Certinaly most I knew used to sit around debating how they could reach out to the working classes.

This is a very middle-class protest, protect my middle-class education expectations.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

moon23 said:


> Yes I suspect a lot of the protestors and  'anarchists' are from rich middle-class backgrounds. Certinaly most I knew used to sit around debating how they could reach out to the working classes.
> 
> This is a very middle-class protest, protect my middle-class education expectations.


 
Nonsense, this was, with the EMA kids, predominantly working class.

Doesn't take much to whip your mask off does it?


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

moon23 said:


> Yes I suspect a lot of the protestors and  'anarchists' are from rich middle-class backgrounds. Certinaly most I knew used to sit around debating how they could reach out to the working classes.
> 
> This is a very middle-class protest, protect my middle-class education expectations.


 
WhY are middle expectations bad? Are w/c expectations of adequate access to education equally bad? Or badder?


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## IC3D (Nov 29, 2010)

DotCommunist said:


> quite literally guarding the van


 
Anarchist "Come on we are the Vanguard" 
Girl "Ok we'll guard the van"
Anarchist ""


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## JHE (Nov 29, 2010)

So *some* of the people against vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.  Equally, *some* of the people who have been shown in the media committing vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.

I think there probably could be an interesting discussion about class and the current student protests, but the pro-and-anti-vandalism dispute is not about class, IMO.

One of the many questions that I think clearly is a class issue is the threat to Educational Maintenance Allowance.  The recipients of EMA are largely young working class people on a wide variety of courses of very varying worth.  It is those students and their families who will be significantly worse off if that particular cut is made.  Young FE students - and other young students who may not even be at FE colleges, but at 'training providers' doing 'Foundation Learning' and such like - are often forgotten in discussions about students and funding of students.  The discussions are often very skewed towards thinking about university students.


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## IC3D (Nov 29, 2010)

moon23 said:


> This is a very middle-class protest, protect my middle-class education expectations.



There were loads of kids from inner London schools there and what Butchers said you utter prick


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## Threshers_Flail (Nov 29, 2010)

My next door neighbour is from the same school as Ms Williams. She said to me the other week that private school kids are victimised and intentionally get lower grades from exam boards to level out results. Posh people are fucking deluded.


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## frogwoman (Nov 29, 2010)

JHE said:


> So *some* of the people against vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.  Equally, *some* of the people who have been shown in the media committing vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.
> 
> I think there probably could be an interesting discussion about class and the current student protests, but the pro-and-anti-vandalism dispute is not about class, IMO.
> 
> One of the many questions that I think clearly is a class issue is the threat to Educational Maintenance Allowance.  The recipients of EMA are largely young working class people on a wide variety of courses of very varying worth.  It is those students and their families who will be significantly worse off if that particular cut is made.  Young FE students - and other young students who may not even be at FE colleges, but at 'training providers' doing 'Foundation Learning' and such like - are often forgotten in discussions about students and funding of students.  The discussions are often very skewed towards thinking about university students.


 
Absolutely.


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## grogwilton (Nov 29, 2010)

Personally I couldn't give a fuck what class the demonstrators are on as long as they do what they are doing which is trying to stop the introduction of fees by rightly exposing it for the clusterfuck it is, that and giving the general anti cuts movement a shot in the arm. The smashing or not smashing of a van (that was planted by the met anyway) won't make or break the current student movement.


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## where to (Nov 29, 2010)

Looks a fair representation of London in skin colour.

You can't tell class by a photo.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

grogwilton said:


> Personally I couldn't give a fuck what class the demonstrators are on as long as they do what they are doing which is trying to stop the introduction of fees by rightly exposing it for the clusterfuck it is, that and giving the general anti cuts movement a shot in the arm. The smashing or not smashing of a van (that was planted by the met anyway) won't make or break the current student movement.



 I do, because it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it.


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

grogwilton said:


> Personally I couldn't give a fuck what class the demonstrators are on as long as they do what they are doing which is trying to stop the introduction of fees by rightly exposing it for the clusterfuck it is, that and giving the general anti cuts movement a shot in the arm. The smashing or not smashing of a van (that was planted by the met anyway) won't make or break the current student movement.


 
yep


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I do, because it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it.


 
no it doesn't


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

Not a marxist anymore then?


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Not a marxist anymore then?


 
does a marxist see general trends in the class background of one individual then?

surprised at you BA


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

Read the thread thread dennis. Read what i replied to. Then apply your razor like marxism. Or don't. Then argue that you shouldn't attempt to analyse things in class terms. That you don't care about the class dynamics of (potential) social movements.

If you don't then i suppose you don't.


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Read the thread thread dennis. Read what i replied to. Then apply your razor like marxism. Or don't. Then argue that you shouldn't attempt to analyse things in class terms. That you don't care about the class dynamics of (potential) social movements.
> 
> If you don't then i suppose you don't.


 
I'd still go with grogwilton's intuitive reaction to the opening post over the opening posters weird idea of 'class analysis'.

To expand on this - the class dynamics of the student movement has feck all to do with the background of one individual - Youth Fight for Jobs  organised  - many directly - and campaigned at schools, colleges and universities - for students to walk out and join the protests by raising class issues. Some of those kids would inevitably be posh - so what. The underlying trend is opposition to a million young people being unemployed, this government talking about cutting off access to university for all but the rich and cutting out the EMA. GWs point was a call for more of the same unity rather than petty finger-pointing. Those schoolkids can draw their own analysis from their own experience - as will GW. The overiding movement is towards a recognition of class inequality and the drawing of class conclusions.

Some posh kids will be attacking vans as will plenty of poorer kids. Some posh kids will be trying to stop what they see as a set up to a) distract from the real issues and b) give an excuse for more repression - so will plenty of poorer kids. its a sideshow to any wider class analysis though.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

It's not the op you disagreed with. It was me and what I said. Why?


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> It's not the op you disagreed with. It was me and what I said. Why?


 
my assumption was that you were sympathetic to the point the op was making?


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

So what exactly did you disagree with in my post?

The one you quoted and disagreed with.


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## dennisr (Nov 29, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> So what exactly did you disagree with in my post?
> 
> The one you quoted and disagreed with.


 
"it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it." if you are talking about the individual mentioned in the op. I disagree with you
the thing is you didn't question the op's point (or lack of it) - only GWs later reaction - so its a fair assumption to make that you had no problem with it.

we both know the op was bananas - that it shows nothing then? let alone anything about the 'class dynamics on the student protest' that it was, at worst, just some weak - and divisive in practice - non-point based on a riot-porn view of clas struggle and, at best, working class chip-on-shoulder knee-jerking. personally I think GWs post was a perfectly reasonable reaction to such.


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## Andrew Hertford (Nov 29, 2010)

revlon said:


> The female student who took it upon herslf to block people attacking the abandoned police van at the demo in Whitehall, she's studying at the Courtauld Institute of Art in London, ex public school, dad's head of press for the City of London.
> 
> Am i being unduly noxious towards her when i say it was typical middle class arrogance that allowed her to feel she could do that? Or is she just a feisty teen with a bit of gumption?
> 
> ...



I thought it wouldn't be long before we had harrumphing and outrage on here at those girls who formed a ring around the police van. So they were middle class huh? What other dirt can we dig up about them?


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## revlon (Nov 29, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I thought it wouldn't be long before we had harrumphing and outrage on here at those girls who formed a ring around the police van. So they were middle class huh? What other dirt can we dig up about them?


 
it was a very specific thing that happened though. Here she is in action. 4.56 mins in. Where does that kind of attitude come from? It's very confient, very assertive, first ever demo, young kid, ordering people to stop. If you look at the crowd dynamics at the time everyone was cheering on the attack on the van.


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## ferrelhadley (Nov 29, 2010)

where to said:


> Looks a fair representation of London in skin colour.
> 
> You can't tell class by a photo.


Get yourself on to a bit of youtube and listen to the people who were protesting then. The kids from the estates are angry. The EMA cut is going to hit them hard.

And as for the middle class, a lot of students with middle class parents are realising that middle class is no longer an inheratence. That realisation is driving passion in students that has been lacking for years. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11858781
Housing benefit cuts pushed back a year. You have to wonder if the visceral anger of the kids played any part.


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## butchersapron (Nov 29, 2010)

dennisr said:


> "it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it." if you are talking about the individual mentioned in the op. I disagree with you
> the thing is you didn't question the op's point (or lack of it) - only GWs later reaction - so its a fair assumption to make that you had no problem with it.
> 
> we both know the op was bananas - that it shows nothing then? let alone anything about the 'class dynamics on the student protest' that it was, at worst, just some weak - and divisive in practice - non-point based on a riot-porn view of clas struggle and, at best, working class chip-on-shoulder knee-jerking. personally I think GWs post was a perfectly reasonable reaction to such.



But i wasn't denis and we both know this too. I replied to the post that said that they don't care at all about the class composition of the protests. I said what someone coming from a position that forwards a class analysis should. You told me that i was wrong. Tell me where and why i was wrong.


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## where to (Nov 30, 2010)

ferrelhadley said:


> And as for the middle class, a lot of students with middle class parents are realising that middle class is no longer an inheratence. That realisation is driving passion in students that has been lacking for years.


 
interesting.  i think you're onto something there too.  fear of all kinds abounds.


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## Phil Aychio (Nov 30, 2010)

It's like this: basically, if you're not a millionaire, you're goosed, right? The lass was right to say the van was a red herring. If she was preaching about nonviolence, then that's...


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> "it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it." if you are talking about the individual mentioned in the op. I disagree with you
> the thing is you didn't question the op's point (or lack of it) - only GWs later reaction - so its a fair assumption to make that you had no problem with it.
> 
> we both know the op was bananas - that it shows nothing then? let alone anything about the 'class dynamics on the student protest' that it was, at worst, just some weak - and divisive in practice - non-point based on a riot-porn view of clas struggle and, at best, *working class chip-on-shoulder knee-jerking*. personally I think GWs post was a perfectly reasonable reaction to such.


 


me and the sutton trust both.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

ferrelhadley said:


> Get yourself on to a bit of youtube and listen to the people who were protesting then. The kids from the estates are angry. The EMA cut is going to hit them hard.
> 
> And as for the middle class, a lot of students with middle class parents are realising that middle class is no longer an inheratence. That realisation is driving passion in students that has been lacking for years.
> 
> ...


 
Yep.


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## ernestolynch (Nov 30, 2010)

Lol


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

Yep again. And not just the students either. Lots of older middle-class people realising they're only one or two pay cheques from disaster. They'll work out which side they're on.


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> "it indicates what their immediate interest is and what they might do to defend it." if you are talking about the individual mentioned in the op. I disagree with you
> the thing is you didn't question the op's point (or lack of it) - only GWs later reaction - so its a fair assumption to make that you had no problem with it.
> 
> we both know the op was bananas - that it shows nothing then? let alone anything about the 'class dynamics on the student protest' that it was, at worst, just some weak - and divisive in practice - non-point based on a riot-porn view of clas struggle and, at best, working class chip-on-shoulder knee-jerking. personally I think GWs post was a perfectly reasonable reaction to such.


 
No answer to my question at all is it though Dennis. Correct as the point maybe.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

just read the article, she comes over as a bit of a twat tbh (although maybe that's just the way that the torygraph edited the interview). however, doesnt change the fact that there were a few working class schoolkids protecting the van from being destroyed as well. and the telegraph didn't interview them ... 

i think butchers has a point over the fact that it is relevant what class she belonged to tbh and i think that who is involved in these protests is (or can be) relevant because it may affect what demands they make and how far they go, the way they think about certain stuff, (and i can think of an example - two - of this recently in my personal life which fucking pissed me off. some guy who was a senior manager in a charity "talking the talk" of being left wing but completely letting me down on some work/money he knew i was depending on and imo not even REALISING it, but that isnt even relevant, grrrrrr)

although i don't know if it is in this case with people protecting the van etc, it looks like some friends of friends may have been involved in protecting it and it seems to me that all sorts of people didn't want it to get attacked because of the damage it might do the cause etc (although to be honest i dont really care one way or another, its just a van, if it wasn't the van it would have been something else, and the people who attacked it certainly shouldnt be charged or get whatever draconian sentence may be handed to them). it's also the case that posh people have been involved in smashing shit up on demos ... 

and call me cynical but it looks like she just wanted to get her face in the papers for whatever reason. reading the article just instantly irritated me ...


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

ymu said:


> Yep again. And not just the students either. Lots of older middle-class people realising they're only one or two pay cheques from disaster. They'll work out which side they're on.


 
I also agree with this - tho not necc sure that everyone will work out what "side" they on, maybe thats a bit too optimistic - but maybe this sort of point is what dennis was gettin at? dunno tho


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## ernestolynch (Nov 30, 2010)

It says she got 4 As at A-Level. So why is she doing History of Art?


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> I also agree with this - tho not necc sure that everyone will work out what "side" they on, maybe thats a bit too optimistic - but maybe this sort of point is what dennis was gettin at? dunno tho


I don't think they'll be miraculously reborn with a different class background, but I do think that there is a lot of wool being pulled from a lot of eyes. It's not like there is a clear definition of middle-class. It is, to _some_ extent, a matter of self-identification - although, obviously, it is hard to get outside your own experience and be aware of what assumptions are not shared (a problem with, and for, the middle-class left).

One of the many brilliant things about these protests - those that have happened _and_ those to come - is that there is a socioeconomic mix of people _who are protesting about socioeconomic issues_. There was a socioeconomic mix on the Iraq demos too, but money wasn't the talking point then. If people talk, people understand each other better. Ghettoising the poor isn't just about keeping middle-class streets 'nice', it's about divorcing them from everyday reality for the low paid and unemployed, and making it easier to demonise the 'feckless other'.


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> It says she got 4 As at A-Level. So why is she doing History of Art?


 
Because she did arts at A' level and wants to become an antique dealer, auctioneer, museum curator, teacher, librarian, civil servant, journalist, editor, archivist etc. Or she just wants to study something interesting that will give her the skills required for the 90% of graduate jobs for which a specific vocational degree is not necessary.

What a bizarre question.


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## ernestolynch (Nov 30, 2010)

I thought it was the degree that toffs and royals did because they only got 2 Es...


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> I thought it was the degree that toffs and royals did because they only got 2 Es...


 
No. The grades you would need to do it would depend on the course you applied for. I'm quite surprised a teacher doesn't know that. Or do you teach primary?


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## ernestolynch (Nov 30, 2010)

I teach your mum.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

Doctor Carrot said:


> Yeah but that girl is in the wrong class, goes to the wrong type of school and has the wrong skin colour to be interviewed by the telegraph.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> me and the sutton trust both.


 
and the tory party - its the new line - 'they are selfish middle class kids who want those poor workers to pay for them'


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> No answer to my question at all is it though Dennis. Correct as the point maybe.



I'm simply refusing to concede the point (even though it may be based on a mistaken assumption on my part) - I learnt that from you mate


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> and the tory party - its the new line - 'they are selfish middle class kids who want those poor workers to pay for them'



"we're all in this together" is also a tory line


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> "we're all in this together" is also a tory line


 
and its also bollocks - as would be equating the background of one arty farty student to the nature of a whole movement. 

In reply to your initial question - i'd say its likely to be the later - a feisty, gobby youngster (and there are plenty of working class versions of that) - but don't honestly care about this one individual and don't think we can definite the class dynamics of either a single demo or an entire movement from this. The nature of this movement is entirely healthy - middle class kids are coming to the conclusion that that a class war exists and they are not on the side of those who have restarted it, they are allying themselves with the ordinary joes and josephines - nearly all the occupations have had visits and solidarity from workers campaigns. The link is being made. And a generation of school children, most of whom are not posh art stuents are coming into action and learning lessons rapidly as to who their friends and who their enemies are. There's no need to start pointing out who is or is not 'worthy' of support by dint of their parents or personal choices - trojan horses like Aaron thingymajig maybe - but not kids like this. The natural reaction from older workers and parent is one of solidarity and sympathy - also healthy.


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

Can we stop the linking of studying art and being posh please? Ta.


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> and its also bollocks - as would be equating the background of one arty farty student to the nature of a whole movement.
> 
> In reply to your initial question - i'd say its likely to be the later - a feisty, gobby youngster (and there are plenty of working class versions of that) - but don't honestly care about this one individual and don't think we can definite the class dynamics of either a single demo or an entire movement from this. The nature of this movement is entirely healthy - middle class kids are coming to the conclusion that that a class war exists and they are not on the side of those who have restarted it, they are allying themselves with the ordinary joes and josephines - nearly all the occupations have had visits and solidarity from workers campaigns. The link is being made. And a generation of school children, most of whom are not posh art stuents are coming into action and learning lessons rapidly as to who their friends and who their enemies are. There's no need to start pointing out who is or is not 'worthy' of support by dint of their parents or personal choices - trojan horses like Aaron thingymajig maybe - but not kids like this.


 
fair play. But it was that one girl and her actions i was going on about. When i saw her on the telly mouthing off i thought: 
1. youth member of a left wing group who organised the demo
2. head girl at london school for girls
3. dad's a copper 

One out of three ain't bad.


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

Also, two quick points.

Earlier when discussing the impact of the cuts, I speculated that many people who would be labelled middle class (both by themselves and on here) would pretty quickly see how little this meant and where their interests lay. Aspiration as a form of class illusion is being torn away.

But...the one student protest that I went on that won (albiet temporarily) out of the many many many that I attended was led by working class FE students from Wythenshaw and Moss Side who saw that their futures were being stolen and saw no problem with using physical force to defend these.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Can we stop the linking of studying art and being posh please? Ta.


 
fair enough - to my eternal shame i've actually got a fine art degree (went back to college after working on sites for 6-7 years)... he he

(i should add that i hated it - posh fuckers most of them - felt like a fart at a deutantes [?] ball - i'm still on 'art' strike 15 years later...


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Also, two quick points.
> 
> Earlier when discussing the impact of the cuts, I speculated that many people who would be labelled middle class (both by themselves and on here) would pretty quickly see how little this meant and where their interests lay. Aspiration as a form of class illusion is being torn away.
> 
> But...the one student protest that I went on that won (albiet temporarily) out of the many many many that I attended was led by working class FE students from Wythenshaw and Moss Side who saw that their futures were being stolen and saw no problem with using physical force to defend these.


 
The middle-class are used to being treated well by those in authority. It takes them longer to work out that 'violence' is a necessary tool if they want to get anywhere.

They'll learn.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

My bro's girlfriend has a fine art degree, and she definitely aint posh.  Her "fahking" isn't an affected "fahking" either.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> fair play. But it was that one girl and her actions i was going on about. When i saw her on the telly mouthing off i thought:
> 1. youth member of a left wing group who organised the demo
> 2. head girl at london school for girls
> 3. dad's a copper
> ...


 
I actually know some of the other folk who tried to stop folk playing to the cameras - and they are definately not middle class or art students.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

ymu said:


> I don't think they'll be miraculously reborn with a different class background, but I do think that there is a lot of wool being pulled from a lot of eyes. It's not like there is a clear definition of middle-class. It is, to _some_ extent, a matter of self-identification - although, obviously, it is hard to get outside your own experience and be aware of what assumptions are not shared (a problem with, and for, the middle-class left).
> 
> One of the many brilliant things about these protests - those that have happened _and_ those to come - is that there is a socioeconomic mix of people _who are protesting about socioeconomic issues_. There was a socioeconomic mix on the Iraq demos too, but money wasn't the talking point then. If people talk, people understand each other better. Ghettoising the poor isn't just about keeping middle-class streets 'nice', it's about divorcing them from everyday reality for the low paid and unemployed, and making it easier to demonise the 'feckless other'.


 
oh definitely agree with all that, also agree that it's a matter of self identification to an extent, but also not though. i mean class can change throughout life and certainly recently (as in the last two years) ive been actually starting to see what it actually MEANS (as in the examples i gave) rather than like an abstract concept. i won't say that i can see everything exactly clearly because i can't, but i've become increasingly fucked off with fake middle class lefties who "talk the talk" but it doesn't stop them behaving in certain ways. (ie personally fucking me over!) 

im not talking about them being reborn wth a different class background, but i think some of them - and prob some of the working class kids too - will become the nu lab etc careerists we all no and despise, we can already see that with clare solomon etc (altho i dunno i might be wrong about her)?? and i don't think all middle class people (or all working class people for that matter) will suddenly realise that there is a class war etc and they will have to be on the "right" ie our side. some people might go on these demonstrations and be horrified by the whole experience and not want to fight any more - they might also come  to conclusions about the role of the police etc that are different than what the "left" would. 

and that's the point i'm making really. there's also a difference between people say on here and even the most left wing people i know IRL - the majorirty of ordinary people (ie not activists or involved in political stuff) thought the demos were great but were put off by people smashing windows etc. the majority of people i am friends with are lower-middle or working class btw


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> I actually know some of the other folk who tried to stop folk playing to the cameras - and they are definately not middle class or art students.


 
i thought i knew / had mates who knew some of them!


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> and its also bollocks - as would be equating the background of one arty farty student to the nature of a whole movement.
> 
> In reply to your initial question - i'd say its likely to be the later - a feisty, gobby youngster (and there are plenty of working class versions of that) - but don't honestly care about this one individual and don't think we can definite the class dynamics of either a single demo or an entire movement from this. The nature of this movement is entirely healthy - middle class kids are coming to the conclusion that that a class war exists and they are not on the side of those who have restarted it, they are allying themselves with the ordinary joes and josephines - nearly all the occupations have had visits and solidarity from workers campaigns. The link is being made. And a generation of school children, most of whom are not posh art stuents are coming into action and learning lessons rapidly as to who their friends and who their enemies are. There's no need to start pointing out who is or is not 'worthy' of support by dint of their parents or personal choices - trojan horses like Aaron thingymajig maybe - but not kids like this. The natural reaction from older workers and parent is one of solidarity and sympathy - also healthy.


 
yep good post!  good to see FE education etc being linked with "students" in general as well to ... the nus barely ever does anythng for them (well it barely does for anyone but you know)


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

Clare 'golly fucking gosh' Solomon's quite old aint she?  Edging towards forty?


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> I actually know some of the other folk who tried to stop folk playing to the cameras - and they are definately not middle class or art students.


 
but look at that girl on the clip, what do you think? Like aaron porter she has all the attributes to _lead the movement_. The 'gifted' ones will rise to the top, whether it's in formal education or part of a mass social movement. 

I was at the student demo. It was like a sutton trust wet dream - an anthropological field study of all the research they've being doing stuck in one place. And all the better for that.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> and that's the point i'm making really. there's also a difference between people say on here and even the most left wing people i know IRL - the majorirty of ordinary people (ie not activists or involved in political stuff) thought the demos were great but were put off by people smashing windows etc. the majority of people i am friends with are lower-middle or working class btw



Absolutely - this is what I meant by the illusions of riot porn/chic some seem to have. I think some of the folk posting here think of all of us proles and fellow 'horny-handed sons/daughters of toil' as a bit rough and ready and always up for a fight. At least i can squeeze a few free drinks out of them so they can talk about their mate (the stereotype prolatariat) with their chums later. 

My family are all (except for my 'posh' pen-pushing council worker sister... - she is a snob) manual workers. It may come as a surprise to some folk but they don't usually spend friday night smashing windows - they just watch parodies of themselves on tv, like shameless, doing that . And no that's not to say that they are not willing to defend themselves if they feel the time is right (and the cameras are off...).


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Clare 'golly fucking gosh' Solomon's quite old aint she?  Edging towards forty?


 
Really?? i didnt realise,  i thought she was 28 or summink, i knew she had run several businesses , apparently once she went to the queens garden party and gave a speech or something, according to the torygraph - altho could be wrong / perhaps being a bit unfair?


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> yep good post!  good to see FE education etc being linked with "students" in general as well to ... the nus barely ever does anythng for them (well it barely does for anyone but you know)



We got discounts on haircuts back in the day at college in Morecambe. 

There was anti-war protest orgnised by local secondary school kids (Heysham included), which was pretty good of them, back in 2003.  They all met at the Eric Morecambe statue, though.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

and like posh people never smash shit up too ...


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

ymu said:


> Yep again. And not just the students either. Lots of older middle-class people realising they're only one or two pay cheques from disaster. They'll work out which side they're on.


 
They're very well-known for supporting their own best interests, so you're doubtless right.

Doesn't mean they won't stab the w/c in the back as soon as the m/c have got what they want, though.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


> We got discounts on haircuts back in the day at college in Morecambe.
> 
> There was anti-war protest orgnised by local secondary school kids (Heysham included), which was pretty good of them, back in 2003.  They all met at the Eric Morecambe statue, though.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

Yep.

Edit: @ VP.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

ernestolynch said:


> It says she got 4 As at A-Level. So why is she doing History of Art?


 
Because if she's halfway bright she's guaranteed a first?


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> but look at that girl on the clip, what do you think? Like aaron porter she has all the attributes to _lead the movement_. The 'gifted' ones will rise to the top, whether it's in formal education or part of a mass social movement.
> 
> I was at the student demo. It was like a sutton trust wet dream - an anthropological field study of all the research they've being doing stuck in one place. And all the better for that.


 
Just like Porter (who is desperately trying to re-assert his credentials at the moment) - no one can 'lead' anything unless they can first prove themselves - not in a real movement like this one - they will be judged on their tactics/strategies/actions. We have to have a little bit of faith in the ability of folk to weigh up these individuals for themselves. I guess that won't stop the tv cameras setting up some idiots as 'leaders though.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're very well-known for supporting their own best interests, so you're doubtless right.
> 
> Doesn't mean they won't stab the w/c in the back as soon as the m/c have got what they want, though.



cynic


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Can we stop the linking of studying art and being posh please? Ta.


 
Yeah. Posh people don't do "art", they do "history of art".


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

im middle class. dont think i could ever be called posh tho ...


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

I'm working class, but have been called middle class, by middle class people who use a radical class analysis in order to redefine themselves as working class.  Funny old world.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

oh dear!!


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

i'm upper middle class (cos i've got a job)


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> Just like Porter (who is desperately trying to re-assert his credentials at the moment) -


And thankfully making himself look a major cunt in the process.


> no one can 'lead' anything unless they can first prove themselves - not in a real movement like this one - they will be judged on their tactics/strategies/actions.


Anyone looking at Aaron's bumbling, stumbling attempts to both tow a new Labour line while presenting himself as "anti-cuts" has been painful yet extremely amusing to watch.


> We have to have a little bit of faith in the ability of folk to weigh up these individuals for themselves. I guess that won't stop the tv cameras setting up some idiots as 'leaders though.


Well, the media have always tried to do that with movements that don't have an obvious leader.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> cynic


 
My cynicism is informed by over 40 years of experience.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> oh dear!!


 
Yeah,  I know.  But they were anarchists, and working class people aren't interested in it (because it's shit).


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> im middle class. dont think i could ever be called posh tho ...


 
Born into a w/c family, live on a council estate and am poor, so socially and economically working class, educationally middle-class, I suppose.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> And thankfully making himself look a major cunt in the process.



exactly


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> i'm upper middle class (cos i've got a job)



Do you say dinner or tea?


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Yeah,  I know.  But they were anarchists, and working class people aren't interested in it (because it's shit).


 
What an acute analysis!


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

tea


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> What an acute analysis!



So was theirs.


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're very well-known for supporting their own best interests, so you're doubtless right.
> 
> Doesn't mean they won't stab the w/c in the back as soon as the m/c have got what they want, though.


 
Well, yes. But things were a lot better for 40 years last time this happened. Unless you actively oppose reform, it's probably best to play the numbers game?


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## nino_savatte (Nov 30, 2010)

moon23 said:


> Yes I suspect a lot of the protestors and  'anarchists' are from rich middle-class backgrounds. Certinaly most I knew used to sit around debating how they could reach out to the working classes.
> 
> This is a very middle-class protest, protect my middle-class education expectations.



Really? How did you arrive at that conclusion?

By the way, I'm a postgraduate student from a very working class background.  You have no idea what you're talking about.


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## creak (Nov 30, 2010)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Do you say dinner or tea?


 
I say supper


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 30, 2010)

Apparently, according to a caller on a radio show....'_you can tell by looking at the students that  attended the demo last week that most of them are foreigners_.'..he didn't mention class though.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> My cynicism is informed by over 40 years of experience.


 
speaking as someone born into a probably upper middle class background (whatever the fuck that means anyway, my dad was lower middle class before he started a business and my mum was posh but poor) and has seen my familys financial situation steadily deteriorate from probably about 2001 i have no fucking idea what class i am from. i dont care tbh  someone on here said that its not where you come from, its where you going ...


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

You've got to remember that these so-called middle classes (and I probably fit into this bracket) may well have "middle-class" jobs, families and a degree (or not if these cuts go through)

but what don't they/we have?

No pensions (I don't even qualify for a state pension)
No job security
No real prospect of property ownership
later and later retirement (or none at all most likely)
Declining wages and working conditions
No capital (savings, investments, shares, property etc.)
No real oppurtunities for upwards social mobility because of education (50% @ Uni targets etc etc)
Huge student debts (which the SLC can and has sold off as private debt to cowboy debt collectors)
Sole dependance on wages for income and financial security.

a few iPads and foreign holidays don't change the fact that the illusion of aspiration is gone. This so-called middle classes' interests are now clearly and concretely that of the proles.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

yep.


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## creak (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Huge student debts (which the SLC can and has sold off as private debt to cowboy debt collectors)


Have you got any more info on this chilango? I've been interested in how this'll play out.


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> This so-called middle classes' interests are now clearly and concretely that of the proles.



spot on (except for the ipads - fuck how many ipads does one middle class person need?


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

creak said:


> Have you got any more info on this chilango? I've been interested in how this'll play out.


 

Friends of mine have found old student loans sold off to private companies and got threats of court, bailiffs etc etc.

Not exactly a worry free graduate tax. is it?

The point is the SLC can, has _and will _change the rules re loans as it sees fit, so Lib Dem claims of paying less, income thresholds etc should be taken with a very very big pinch of salt.


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> spot on (except for the ipads - fuck how many ipads does one middle class person need?


 
Rather have a kindle meself...


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Friends of mine have found old student loans sold off to private companies and got threats of court, bailiffs etc etc.
> 
> Not exactly a worry free graduate tax. is it?
> 
> The point is the SLC can, has _and will _change the rules re loans as it sees fit, so Lib Dem claims of paying less, income thresholds etc should be taken with a very very big pinch of salt.


 Whole thing being sold off now - an asset (however you feel about that), something that brings in revenue, is being sold off to reduce debt. Madness - even in _their_ terms.


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Whole thing being sold off now - an asset (however you feel about that), something that brings in revenue, is being sold off to reduce debt. Madness - even in _their_ terms.


 
Though...maybe they expect a huge amount of defaulting in the future....


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## _angel_ (Nov 30, 2010)

creak said:


> I say supper


 
supper comes after tea--- depending on how hungry you are, anyway.


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## Belushi (Nov 30, 2010)

creak said:


> Have you got any more info on this chilango? I've been interested in how this'll play out.


 
My Loan was sold off years ago - to someone like Barclays iirc. Didn't chamge any of the terms and conditions and I still repay through the SLC.


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## Maggot (Nov 30, 2010)

grogwilton said:


> Personally I couldn't give a fuck what class the demonstrators are on as long as they do what they are doing which is trying to stop the introduction of fees by rightly exposing it for the clusterfuck it is, that and giving the general anti cuts movement a shot in the arm.


 Exactly this.


Divide and rule.


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

Is it divisive to analyse this picture in terms of colour?


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

Art History? Posho!!


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Is it divisive to analyse this picture in terms of colour?



that's just the sort of question that made me think "i hate art students"


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## _angel_ (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> Friends of mine have found old student loans sold off to private companies and got threats of court, bailiffs etc etc.
> 
> Not exactly a worry free graduate tax. is it?
> 
> The point is the SLC can, has _and will _change the rules re loans as it sees fit, so Lib Dem claims of paying less, income thresholds etc should be taken with a very very big pinch of salt.


 
I didn't even know they could do that! Were they not being paid back or something?


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## Andrew Hertford (Nov 30, 2010)

Maggot said:


> Exactly this.
> 
> 
> Divide and rule.



Indeed, who gives a fuck about what class protesters are? Only on U75 will you find so much angsting over something so irrelevant. 

In the face of attempts by the authorities to label all protestors as violent nutters, these girls have actually done us all a big favour.


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

Amazing what can be read into things isn't it andrew?


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## kyser_soze (Nov 30, 2010)

Maybe she recognised it for the 'plant' that it was, according to some other thread somewhere which spends ages saying that it was a deliberate ploy to get people to smash it up.

What a fucking joke this thread is.


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

_"She knows that she has been quite lucky in life but she wants to make the world a better place for those who are not so lucky." _ zoe's dad, head of press for the city of london.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

to be fair she's 19 and that's the sort of the thing i was thinking at 19. i didn't imagine it'd happen to me (and im still far luckier and in a better position than many, perhaps most people i no). and i think a lot of "middle class" people at uni are in that position tbh. (although OK, probably not her, altho you never know!)


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## Maggot (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> _"She knows that she has been quite lucky in life but she wants to make the world a better place for those who are not so lucky." _ zoe's dad, head of press for the city of london.


 And your point is?


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Indeed, who gives a fuck about what class protesters are? Only on U75 will you find so much angsting over something so irrelevant.



How is it irrelevant? 

So you're against neo liberalism. The BNP also oppose neo liberalism. Is it irrelevant who the BNP are and just good that they oppose neo liberalism?


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Maybe she recognised it for the 'plant' that it was, according to some other thread somewhere which spends ages saying that it was a deliberate ploy to get people to smash it up.
> 
> What a fucking joke this thread is.


 
exactly ... and it wasnt even just her that opposed them smashing it up ...


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## Andrew Hertford (Nov 30, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> How is it irrelevant?
> 
> So you're against neo liberalism. The BNP also oppose neo liberalism. Is it irrelevant who the BNP are and just good that they oppose neo liberalism?



What? Being attached to a political ideology, like the bnp, equates to being from one class or another?


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What? Being attached to a political ideology, like the bnp, equates to being from one class or another?


 
It's called reductio ad absurdum. Substituting a different example into the structure of your argument to show you how pants your argument is.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

hang on - i thought c66 was making a valid point tbf. it is (or could be) relevant what class they're from for reasons i said earlier, that doesn't mean class is exactly set in stone though.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> What? Being attached to a political ideology, like the bnp, equates to being from one class or another?


 
So, we're having a large scale attack from one class on another yet you're willing to claim that class is 'irrelevant' in the protest movement? 

There's wider issues than just fees. Class will play a role regarding whether someone fights the attack as one or treats the protest as a single issue and then business as usual. Of course class is relevant when certain people start appearing in the media as emerging leaders of the movement and portrayed as voices of their generation.


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## ymu (Nov 30, 2010)

frogwoman said:


> hang on - i thought c66 was making a valid point tbf. it is (or could be) relevant what class they're from for reasons i said earlier, that doesn't mean class is exactly set in stone though.


I don't know who that's aimed at, but if it's me, I was defending C66.


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## Andrew Hertford (Nov 30, 2010)

Keep fighting the class war if it makes you feel comfortable Citizen, but don't criticise those of us who've moved on.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

ymu said:


> I don't know who that's aimed at, but if it's me, I was defending C66.


 
sorry, i must have misinterpreted your post!


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

You fight for jesus don't you mr blair?


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Keep fighting the class war if it makes you feel comfortable Citizen, but don't criticise those of us who've moved on.


 
Moved on to what?


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

To heaven and a class free world.


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## frogwoman (Nov 30, 2010)

to a better place lol


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

ymu said:


> Well, yes. But things were a lot better for 40 years last time this happened. Unless you actively oppose reform, it's probably best to play the numbers game?


 
Of course, just be aware that people will have their own particular reasons for doing stuff, and we'll all be fine.


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

Maggot said:


> And your point is?


 
imagine the world she comes from, lives in, experiences. Imagine the people her father knows, the contacts, the useful friends, imagine the dinner parties and those she is used to talking to, connecting with, the influence they have over the decisions being made. Imagine her contemporaries and the privileges they take for granted at the school only the rich have access to. Imagine her future career mapped out, the options, the doors opening, the absolute sense of entitlement, And imagine that money has never be a barrier, a concern, the very thing that keeps you awake at night. Imagine her world for a moment and how much of it came to bear at that moment as she ordered people to stop.

No real point to make really.


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## ViolentPanda (Nov 30, 2010)

chilango said:


> You've got to remember that these so-called middle classes (and I probably fit into this bracket) may well have "middle-class" jobs, families and a degree (or not if these cuts go through)
> 
> but what don't they/we have?
> 
> ...


 
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but would add that historically the middle classes like a bit of open ground between themselves and the proles, and that this may well be reasserted post-any anti-cuts movement. I trust the _bourgeoisie_ to be the _bourgeoisie_. If they act otherwise, I'll be pleasantly surprised.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> _"She knows that she has been quite lucky in life but she wants to make the world a better place for those who are not so lucky." _ zoe's dad, head of press for the city of london.


 
_Save the local donkey sanctuary. Please give generously._


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Keep fighting the class war if it makes you feel comfortable Citizen, but don't criticise those of us who've moved on.


 
Nice to know the cuts aren't affecting you personally, Andrew.


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## butchersapron (Nov 30, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> _Save the local donkey sanctuary. Please give generously._


 
And the black babies.


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## Edie (Nov 30, 2010)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Keep fighting the class war if it makes you feel comfortable Citizen, but don't criticise those of us who've moved on.


Moved on? You were never there mate.


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## Citizen66 (Nov 30, 2010)

Will he walk into the trap?


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## Maggot (Nov 30, 2010)

revlon said:


> imagine the world she comes from, lives in, experiences. Imagine the people her father knows, the contacts, the useful friends, imagine the dinner parties and those she is used to talking to, connecting with, the influence they have over the decisions being made. Imagine her contemporaries and the privileges they take for granted at the school only the rich have access to. Imagine her future career mapped out, the options, the doors opening, the absolute sense of entitlement, And imagine that money has never be a barrier, a concern, the very thing that keeps you awake at night. Imagine her world for a moment and how much of it came to bear at that moment as she ordered people to stop.
> 
> No real point to make really.


19 year olds going to dinner parties.


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## revlon (Nov 30, 2010)

Maggot said:


> 19 year olds going to dinner parties.


 
do the head of press at city of london have dinner parties? Imagine who'd attend.;


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## dennisr (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> I don't disagree with what you're saying, but would add that historically the middle classes like a bit of open ground between themselves and the proles, and that this may well be reasserted post-any anti-cuts movement. I trust the _bourgeoisie_ to be the _bourgeoisie_. If they act otherwise, I'll be pleasantly surprised.


 
petty-bourg - straws in the wind blowing in the direction of the strongest force. I don't think most most folk calling themselves middle-class nowadays could be classified as fully fledged pb though - more 'wannabe for the moment'


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## tbaldwin (Nov 30, 2010)

JHE said:


> So *some* of the people against vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.  Equally, *some* of the people who have been shown in the media committing vandalism are from very well-off backgrounds.
> 
> I think there probably could be an interesting discussion about class and the current student protests, but the pro-and-anti-vandalism dispute is not about class, IMO.
> 
> One of the many questions that I think clearly is a class issue is the threat to Educational Maintenance Allowance.  The recipients of EMA are largely young working class people on a wide variety of courses of very varying worth.  It is those students and their families who will be significantly worse off if that particular cut is made.  Young FE students - and other young students who may not even be at FE colleges, but at 'training providers' doing 'Foundation Learning' and such like - are often forgotten in discussions about students and funding of students.  The discussions are often very skewed towards thinking about university students.


 
Good post.
The EMA has been a really good thing. And Education has to be a Class issue. We are not all in this together. Private school pupils are still far more likely to go to university. Oxford and Cambridge should both be closed down for blatant discrimination. And x private school pupils should have to pay at least £20,000 a year in tuition fees to go to universities.


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## chilango (Nov 30, 2010)

dennisr said:


> petty-bourg - straws in the wind blowing in the direction of the strongest force. I don't think most most folk calling themselves middle-class nowadays could be classified as fully fledged pb though - more 'wannabe for the moment'


 
Exactly.


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## Captain Hurrah (Nov 30, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> like a bit of open ground between themselves and the proles



Yep.


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## kyser_soze (Dec 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> imagine the world she comes from, lives in, experiences. Imagine the people her father knows, the contacts, the useful friends, imagine the dinner parties and those she is used to talking to, connecting with, the influence they have over the decisions being made. Imagine her contemporaries and the privileges they take for granted at the school only the rich have access to. Imagine her future career mapped out, the options, the doors opening, the absolute sense of entitlement, And imagine that money has never be a barrier, a concern, the very thing that keeps you awake at night. Imagine her world for a moment and how much of it came to bear at that moment as she ordered people to stop.
> 
> No real point to make really.


 
You should get a job working in marketing or advertising if you're this good at placing yourself in someone else's socioeconomic context. Good post.


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## Maggot (Dec 1, 2010)

revlon said:


> do the head of press at city of london have dinner parties? Imagine who'd attend.;


 Probably.   Not their 19 year old daughters, they'll be out doing what 19 year olds do.


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## revlon (Dec 1, 2010)

Maggot said:


> Probably.   Not their 19 year old daughters, they'll be out doing what 19 year olds do.


 
riding around london on their vespas


----------

