# US no-go zones



## ska invita (Sep 6, 2007)

On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.

No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.

I took this as over-fearful, but a number of people i talked to said that there are a few parts of town that are just no-go zones - even to drive through because of car jackings.

IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?

It put things into perspective for me - at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.


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## lenny101 (Sep 6, 2007)

My sister went to LA a few years ago. The hostel she was staying at organised tours through Compton, a bit like a trip through a safari park was how she described it. Very sad.


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## mhendo (Sep 8, 2007)

There's a lot of excessive paranoia in the United States about areas like Compton. I'm not saying that such areas are places that you'd really want to stop for lunch, or walk through after dark (or even before dark, in some cases), but the idea that you're going to get strafed with gunfire just driving through is pretty silly.

I live in a city--Baltimore, Maryland--that perennially has one of the highest murder rates in the nation. There are parts of this city that really are very dangerous places. If you walk around those places, even during the day, there's a pretty decent chance that someone will stick a gun in your face and demand your wallet. This is especially likely if you obviously don't fit in, which, in the case of Baltimore's poorer neighborhoods, would generally apply to anyone who's not African American.

I guess it's also possible that you might run into trouble driving through those areas, but i've driven through them during the day and never encountered any trouble. I have gotten a few hard stares from people on the street, but while they don't exactly seem like friendly stares, they also don't look like they're about to jump into a car and chase me down with guns blazing. It always seemed like sort of a "What are you doing here? Just keep moving!" sort of stare.

The fact is that, while Baltimore is a violent city, a large majority of the murders and other violence tends to occur between people who know each other, and who have particular reasons for animosity. A lot of the murders are drug-related (Baltimore has a huge heroin problem), with drug dealers and gangs protecting turf. There are also neighborhood disputes that can escalate into violence and gunfire. Some people also get killed for talking to the police; there's a real culture of "don't snitch" in some Baltimore communities.

If you take a map of Baltimore and insert a pin for every murder, you'll find a few large concentrations in East Baltimore and West Baltimore, which are the poorest parts of the city. Most of the people in these neighborhoods are just poor folks trying to get by, but they often get caught up in the violence for no reason, or because they try to improve their neighborhoods. A few years ago, a family tried reporting drug activity to the police, and in retaliation their house was firebombed twice. The first time they got out; the second time both parents and their five children died in the blaze. Link

Over the past few years the city has averaged about 265-275 homicides a year in a population of about 680,000. By comparison, in the 12 months from June 2005 to June 2006, the UK had 765 murders in a population of over 50 million, and that number was inflated by the 52 victims of the London bombings in July 2005. 

Of Baltimore's 275 homicides in 2006, 254 of the victims (and a similar percentage of the perpetrators) were African American, overwhelmingly men in the 16-30 years age group. Link We're on pace for about 305-310 murders this year. 

If you don't live in the poorest neighborhoods, you have a pretty small chance of being killed. Your most likely encounter with crime would be getting held up on the street and told to give up your wallet and cellphone. And that happens in good neighborhoods and bad, because Baltimore is very much a city of relatively small neighborhoods, and poor neighborhoods often run right alongside wealthy ones.

I live near Johns Hopkins University, in a neighborhood populated mainly by college students and white middle class professional types in apartment buildings and medium-sized row houses. Here is a panorama (warning: uses Java plugin) of our street in winter. Just to the north of us is one of Baltimore's toniest and most expensive neighborhoods, with large freestanding homes on big leafy blocks of land. To the east is a relatively poor and working class black community. There is another similar neighborhood to the south, and over to the west is a poor black community and a working-class-but-rapidly-gentrifying white neighborhood.

If someone from one of the poorer communities decides that he needs to rob someone to get some money, he's most likely to go where the money is--the wealthier neighborhoods. There are usually one or two armed hold-ups a month within ten or fifteen blocks of my house. Last month, there was one about 20 metres from our front door. You have to be careful walking around alone at night, although the crime reports about these incidents suggest that if you calmly hand over your wallet or purse then you won't come to any further harm. They generally just want the money.

Anyway, i guess that all makes it sound like Baltimore is a scary place to live, but it's really not. If you let yourself get paranoid about this stuff, you'd never leave the house and would live a miserable life. It's true that you have to be a bit careful about walking around, and you need to be aware of your surroundings, but it's not like living in a war zone, as long as you're not confined by poverty to the very poor, very dangerous neighborhoods.

I guess that some of those places are a sort of no-go zone for a middle-class white guy like me, because i would stick out like a sore thumb and be likely to attract the attention of someone looking for trouble. Also, because those neighborhoods are so poor and run down, there's generally not much to attract people to them anyway. But i think it's worth remembering that, even in the poorest and most dangerous areas, the majority of people aren't criminals; they're just poor people doing their best to get by under very trying circumstances.


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## Fruitloop (Sep 8, 2007)

Great post!


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## ska invita (Sep 8, 2007)

Fruitloop said:
			
		

> Great post!


seconded - nice panorma too!

When in LA I was staying with a relative who works as an A&E nurse, and she was telling me some stories about all the (particularly hispanic) gang wounds she deals with. AS you say, street violence is so often "personal", and it is very unlikely that if your not involved you'll come to harm.

But I think what I found interesting was the difference between the US and the UK - I take on board the points you make in your post mhendo, and to a certain extent they can be applied to any city - except that the situation does seem to me to be so much more extreme in the states than here in Britain.

I think the US has greater poverty than we currently do in the UK (a perception, backed by some anecdotal evidence from US colleauges). 

Certainly the US has little or no social safety net to help keep people out of desperate poverty. ANyone who has had to live on social security in the UK knows that its still a huge struggle to get by - but perhaps this is part of what distinguishes British cities to those in the US.

As your murder rate stats suggest, the US defintely does have areas that are pretty much no-go zones. Ive been to Istanbul a couple of years back and the same was true there. I am thankful that in Britain at least, for all our problems, we still have cities that havent become over ghettoised and in which we can all still live along side one another with some degree of safety.


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## mhendo (Sep 8, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> But I think what I found interesting was the difference between the US and the UK - I take on board the points you make in your post mhendo, and to a certain extent they can be applied to any city - except that the situation does seem to me to be so much more extreme in the states than here in Britain.
> 
> <snip>
> 
> As your murder rate stats suggest, the US defintely does have areas that are pretty much no-go zones. Ive been to Istanbul a couple of years back and the same was true there. I am thankful that in Britain at least, for all our problems, we still have cities that havent become over ghettoised and in which we can all still live along side one another with some degree of safety.


I think that's true in a lot of ways, especially when it comes to really dangerous, crime-ridden areas. There's really not much comparison between the really bad areas of the US and the really bad areas of the UK, and the presence of so many guns in the US (and a willingness to use them) has a lot to do with that, i think.

But, having lived in Britain for a couple of years, my own experience has been that what we might call casual, everyday violence is actually just as common in the UK as it is in the US, if not more common. What i mean by that is the level of violence in what might normally be considered "safe" places. I saw far more bar fights and common assaults in the UK than i've seen in six years of living in the US. And quite a lot of the assaults were unprovoked, simply hoodlums deciding to beat someone up, without even robbery as a motive, or some guy wanting to beat the crap out of someone who accidentally bumped into him on the floor of a nightclub. 

Admittedly, this is merely anecdotal evidence, based on my own experience in cities like London, Doncaster, Sheffield, Manchester, Leeds, Penrith, and Newcastle. I don't know what the actual figures are for common assault in the UK and the US. But i've read enough threads on Urban about similar incidents to know that my experience was not unique (luckily, i only ever encountered this sort of violence as a third party, never as the victim). British violence is different to American violence in a lot of ways, but there's still more of it than there should be.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 8, 2007)

Hah, I lived in Baltimore for a while - my ex is from Dundalk - and none of that seems to contradict anything that I experienced.

I liked the city to be honest but I always had the "stranger" element in my favour - people were always a little surprised by my accent and behaviour and wouldn't have behaved in quite the same way if I'd been a native. Similarly, I wouldn't have noticed any subtle signs of menace that would be obvious to me here in London.

The social divisions did surprise me though with how geographically defined they were. There were literally roads on which this side is poor black, the other side is rich white. Sometimes there's the HQ of a major multinational, and across the street there are guys sitting on porches with a forty. And people really did avoid wandering across the boundaries, at least if they were driving - it's much easier to maintain this sort of division if you are driving everywhere. I understand it's a lot worse in areas which are more spread out, some of the stories I hear from Florida are appalling.

Generally, you know, real people would talk to anyone and hang about with anyone, though.


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## Dillinger4 (Sep 8, 2007)

mhendo lives in the wire.

 

Great post btw! I am considering Johns Hopkins for a graduate program.


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## mhendo (Sep 8, 2007)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> I liked the city to be honest but I always had the "stranger" element in my favour - people were always a little surprised by my accent and behaviour and wouldn't have behaved in quite the same way if I'd been a native.


I think that's right. My Australian accent gets me some funny looks, and a lot of questions about the Crocodile Hunter. Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents; i get asked quite frequently what part of England i'm from. 






			
				FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> The social divisions did surprise me though with how geographically defined they were. There were literally roads on which this side is poor black, the other side is rich white. Sometimes there's the HQ of a major multinational, and across the street there are guys sitting on porches with a forty.


That's still true. The medical campus of Johns Hopkins, which is one of the best and most prestigious hospitals in the world, is right in the middle of a very rough part of East Baltimore. Hopkins is the biggest employer in the city, and many of the people who work on the cleaning and janitorial and maintenance staff go home at night to those same poor Baltimore neighborhoods.






			
				Dillinger4 said:
			
		

> I am considering Johns Hopkins for a graduate program.


It's a great school, especially for graduate work. The proportion of grad students is much higher than at a lot of other schools, and the faculty really seem to focus a lot of their energy on graduate instruction. At least, that's been my experience in the humanities and social sciences side of things; i don't know too much about the sciences or engineering.

Also, the very thing that makes Baltimore so problematic also makes it a very good place for grad students--it's cheap. My partner and i, both grad students, rent a three-bedroom row house for $1300 a month, which is less than you'd pay for a small one-bedroom apartment in New York or Boston or Washington or San Francisco.


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## Detroit City (Sep 8, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> IS this really the case, and is this common across the big towns in the US, that there are real no go zones?


yes, this truly is the case.  mostly the "no-go" zones are where many poor minority people live.

there are many sections of Detroit proper that white people will not go to because those areas are almost 100% black.....and i'm sure you're aware of the history between blacks and whites in the US


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## Wookey (Sep 8, 2007)

Dead interestin' post from mhendo.


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## Detroit City (Sep 8, 2007)

Wookey said:
			
		

> Dead interestin' post from mhendo.


quite


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## dylanredefined (Sep 9, 2007)

Not sure about florida ,but ,definatly in New Orleans before the flood places were reccomended I stay out of drove through some of them when I got lost definatly got a vibe that it wasen't a place to linger .


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## ska invita (Sep 9, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> That's still true. The medical campus of Johns Hopkins, which is one of the best and most prestigious hospitals in the world, is right in the middle of a very rough part of East Baltimore. Hopkins is the biggest employer in the city, and many of the people who work on the cleaning and janitorial and maintenance staff go home at night to those same poor Baltimore neighborhoods.


A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.


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## Detroit City (Sep 9, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.


within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues.   literally in the shadow of the entire US govt. 

you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too


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## mhendo (Sep 9, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> A friend of mine lived in Washington DC and said that the White House is in a similiar situation - said washington was a dangerous city all round.


Washington is one of the cities that competes with Baltimore each year for the honour of highest murder rate per capita. It has some very dangerous areas, but it's certainly not dangerous "all round." 

Baltimore is, as i said above, a city of neighborhoods, so it's something of a patchwork in terms of where the dangerous neighborhoods are. As FridgeMagnet noted above, there are places where wealthy and poor (or "good" and "bad") neighborhoods are right next to each other. 

Washington is also a city very much divided by race and class, but the dividing line is much clearer and more defined than in Baltimore. Basically, the line runs in a diagonal slash across the city, from north-east to south-west. To the north-west of the line are the wealthy, white, "good" areas of town, and to the south-east of the line are the poor, black, "bad" areas of town. Obviously, like most arbitrary social and demographic boundaries, there are a few exceptions, but the city is divided in two much more neatly than a patchwork city like Baltimore.

In the wealthy parts of town, i've literally never felt unsafe or thought that there was anything to worry about. You can wander around places like Georgetown, Adams Morgan, DuPont Circles, Woodley Park etc. without a problem. Washington is, in many ways, a wealthy city, with a lot of government workers and NGO employees and lawyers and stuff making good salaries and living comfortable lives in the city or in the Maryland and Virginia suburbs.

The poorer neighborhoods tend to be concentrated in the eastern part of the city. The area around Capitol Hill is still pretty nice, although it's close enough to the bad areas that the crime level is fairly high. I've done quite a bit of my dissertation research at the Library of Congress, right behind the Capitol building, and i've always felt extremely safe there, during the day at least. Remember, too, that as the nation's capital, Washington is a sort of mecca for tourists from all over America, and the city does everything it can to keep the tourist areas (Capitol, White House, National Mall, etc.) clean and safe. The police presence in those areas is high (also for general security purposes, especially since 9/11), and not many problems occur.

Because of this, the problems tend to get confined to the poorer areas of town. A friend of mine, a guy who plays on my Sunday softball league here in Baltimore, is a fairly high-ranking cop in DC, in the Eastern part of the city, and he tells some pretty depressing stories of violence and crime. The poor neighborhoods of DC are very similar to the poor areas of Baltimore--mainly black, with a fair amount of gang- and drug-related violence.

It will be interesting to see what happens in those areas over the next few years, because the city is making a determined effort to gentrify some of them. The Washington Nationals, the city's major league baseball team, will next year move into a spanking new ballpark worth hundreds of millions of dollars, which is being built in south-east DC, on the Anacostia River, in what had generally been known as a pretty dangerous part of town. You can bet your life that the large influx of new businesses and of baseball fans (many of whom with be there to sit in expensive corporate boxes) will ensure a strong police and security presence in the area.






			
				Detroit City said:
			
		

> within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitutes. literally in the shadow of the entire US govt.
> 
> you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too


Well, sure, but three miles is a long way in a densely-populated city.

I'll bet you could do all that within three miles of Buckingham Palace, or within three miles of the Golden Gate Bridge, or within three miles of the Sydney Opera House, too.


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## Yossarian (Sep 9, 2007)

I spent a couple of years living in Windsor, Ontario, Canada, just across the border from Detroit.

We used to drive across the bridge, or through the tunnel all the time to see bands, to eat Mexican food, or just to buy cheap cigarettes and booze and to fill up on cheap gas.

Sometimes we'd take a wrong turn and end up driving through whole areas of town where all the houses were ruined and there were barely any streetlights or anything and it was as fucked-up looking as anything I've ever seen in any third world city. Even in the adjacent areas when we stopped and went to the store, it seemed like people were a little surprised to see white people there. 

When you drove about 10-20 miles out of the city, it was like you'd crossed some invisible border and you started seeing nice houses, and lots of white people, it was like how I'd imagined South Africa was like under apartheid! 

So I'd definitely say there's no-go areas in some US cities or what seem to be no-go - although saying that, we never had any trouble ever, and downtown Detroit itself was almost always trouble-free apart from when a friend of a friend got shot in the leg at a cashpoint.


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## Crispy (Sep 9, 2007)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> some of the stories I hear from Florida are appalling.


When we were there, in Sarasota, I saw *one* black family on main street, and even very few black workers in the bars, restaurants etc. I only saw black people when riding a bus back to the airport, when we drove through row after row after row of _shacks_ with not a single white person around. 100% black and 100% extremely poor. A real eye-opener.


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## Detroit City (Sep 9, 2007)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Sometimes we'd take a wrong turn and end up driving through whole areas of town where all the houses were ruined and there were barely any streetlights or anything and it was as fucked-up looking as anything I've ever seen in any third world city. Even in the adjacent areas when we stopped and went to the store, it seemed like people were a little surprised to see white people there.
> 
> When you drove about 10-20 miles out of the city, it was like you'd crossed some invisible border and you started seeing nice houses, and lots of white people, it was like how I'd imagined South Africa was like under apartheid!


100% spot on....I'd also like to add that DEtroit is the #1 most segregated major city in *North America*.


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## mhendo (Sep 10, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> 100% spot on....I'd also like to add that DEtroit is the #1 most segregated major city in *North America*.


Actually, it depends how you rank it. According to the most recent report on the issue by the US Census bureau, Detroit ranks first in 2 out of the 5 segregation indices, but ranks second overall in African American segregation, behind Milwaukee-Waukesha. Link

This is just a nitpick, though; the difference between the two cities in terms of overall segregation is negligible, and Detroit is certainly at or near the top in all racial segregation indices.


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## Skimix (Sep 10, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents



Lol...so true...I always get asked if I'm Australian!

Excellent posts by the way...very interesting.


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## Donna Ferentes (Sep 10, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues.   literally in the shadow of the entire US govt.


Three miles is a long way away in a large city.


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## chymaera (Sep 10, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> at least even in roughest parts of Britain I wouldnt feel that it wasnt safe to visit.




We will have to agree to disagree about that. I can think of several streets in various towns in Britain I would not visit even in daylight.


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## 1927 (Sep 10, 2007)

chymaera said:
			
		

> We will have to agree to disagree about that. I can think of several streets in various towns in Britain I would not visit even in daylight.



Seconded. I would rather walk the streets of NY at 3am than the streets in certain parts of Cardiff, my home city!


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## Pie 1 (Sep 10, 2007)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Three miles is a long way away in a large city.



Not so much in larger US cities to be honest. Once you leave the imediate downtown cluster, they tend to  sprawl out very quickly.


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## mhendo (Sep 10, 2007)

Pie 1 said:
			
		

> Not so much in larger US cities to be honest. Once you leave the imediate downtown cluster, they tend to  sprawl out very quickly.


Well, sure, but the point was that any city, even a large one, can change very dramatically in the course of a three-mile journey out of the main downtown core.

Take any big city in America, and probably any big city in the world, and find the safest, most tourist-friendly part of the city. Now draw a circle with a radius of three miles from that place. I'll bet that, no matter which city you chose, somewhere within that circle you could find a hooker, buy hard drugs like crack cocaine or heroin, and find an illegal handgun. Even the almost-completely-gentrified cites like Manhattan and San Francisco still have areas where this would be the case. 

Two of the most congenial, safest cities i've lived in are Sydney and Vancouver. In both those cities, i have no compunction about walking around late at night. Yet i could also tell you where to find hard drugs and weapons in both cities. And in both cities, the places where you can find that stuff are within about a mile of downtown.


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## D (Sep 10, 2007)

Great posts, mhendo!
Ultimately, the question of a "no go" area is largely about individual levels of comfort and safety.

I grew up in New York City and have lived in Johannesburg, Washington DC, and San Francisco.  I've also spent stretches in London, Nepal, Brazil, and Berlin.  I have never prescribed any area of those places as off-limits for myself, though I certainly used discretion about when/how I travelled where.  I am a young, small, white woman usually seen on a bicycle (though in Jo'burg I mostly traveled by car).  Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street, even if those people are not always folks I'd immediately invite round for tea.

Now I am living in Berlin and I find that, in this relatively safe and mellow city, there is a little part of my ride home from Prenzlauerberg/Friedrichshain to Neukölln that makes me anxious.  It's a part where I have to get off my bike and walk over a little footbridge.  The Spree is, of course, lovely and full of swans in the middle of the night; but in some ways I'd probably feel more comfortable breezing through an alley full of unsavory characters than I do carrying my bicycle over a deserted bridge surrounded by dark bushes at 4 am.  And it must be said that I only feel funny about it when it's the middle of the night.

I lived for 4 years and change in an area in SF where you can easily find crack, heroin, and illegal handguns.  And I always felt safe, even if I wished it didn't smell like piss in front of my door most of the time.  If anything, the destitution and desperation of people in my neighborhood had more of an effect on my sense of emotional well being than it did on my physical safety.

edited to address all kinds of appalling grammar and spelling errors


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## Stanley Edwards (Sep 10, 2007)

D said:
			
		

> ...
> 
> Now I am living in Berlin and I find that, in this relatively safe and mellow city, there is a little part of my ride home from Prenzlauerberg/Friedrichshain to Neukölln that makes me anxious.  It's a part where I have to get off my bike and walk over a little footbridge.  The Spree is, of course, lovely and full of swans in the middle of the night; but in some ways I'd probably feel more comfortable breezing through an alley full of unsavory characters than I do carrying my bicycle over a deserted bridge surrounded by dark bushes at 4 am...



I think this is a culturally alienated type of sensation. That part of Berlin is typically European IMO even with the unsettling 'old East' still lingering close by. It's an area of Berlin I love. Fully understand why you feel a bit edgy, but I don't think it's relevant to the opening post of this thread.

Have you explored Planterwald yet?

Very, very, very unsettling


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## Detroit City (Sep 10, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> I think that's right. My Australian accent gets me some funny looks, and a lot of questions about the Crocodile Hunter. Also, i've learned that a lot of Americans can't distinguish Australian and English accents; i get asked quite frequently what part of England i'm from.


most british/australians could not distinguish between an american accent or canadian accent either....


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## Yuwipi Woman (Sep 10, 2007)

I go pretty much everywhere.  I think the whole thing is overblown by tourists.

Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude.  If you have "street presence" you will be mostly left alone.


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## phildwyer (Sep 10, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues.   literally in the shadow of the entire US govt.
> 
> you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too



Three miles?  Try three yards.  There was a famous campaign commerical for the first George Bush, when he appeared with a bag of crack that one of his aides had just bought in the park behind the White House.


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## phildwyer (Sep 10, 2007)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> I go pretty much everywhere.  I think the whole thing is overblown by tourists.
> 
> Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude.  If you have "street presence" you will be mostly left alone.



Not if you're white.


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## Detroit City (Sep 10, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Three miles?  Try three yards.


yea well i was trying to be nice...


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## mhendo (Sep 10, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> most british/australians could not distinguish between an american accent or canadian accent either....


I'm sure that's right. It was offered as an observation, rather than a criticism.






			
				D said:
			
		

> Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street, even if those people are not always folks I'd immediately invite round for tea.


Absolutely. I have never once felt unsafe in New York, and i think a lot of that has to do with the fact that there are always people around.

You're right that a lot of it is about attitude and confidence. If you act like you belong there, then people will often assume that you do, and leave you alone; if you act all nervous and out-of-place, you are more likely to attract the attention of the troublemakers.

Of course, this only takes you so far. There are some people who will fuck with you no matter how confident you appear. Thankfully, those people are a minority.


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## Detroit City (Sep 10, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> There are some people who will fuck with you no matter how confident you appear. Thankfully, those people are a minority.


especially if they have a Glock 9mm and you have nothing


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 10, 2007)

I felt unsafe in both Baltimore and Philly when I first went there, in a way that I never did in London, where I'll walk anywhere.

It's cultural though. There are certain subtle little signs and behaviours which you get used to unconsciously in your native culture, and which have parallels in other places but which you don't know. So to start with I was always nervous when I was on the bus because body language and speech patterns and so on were different. But I learnt them fairly quickly and after that I was happy going pretty much anywhere.

The advantage of learning things that way is that you don't pick up cultural prejudices to do with, say, class signifiers in the way that a native would have over the years. Little differences in accent that clearly had class implications within the US, I had no issue with, even if I noticed them. That sort of prejudice takes years to pick up. In the same way, foreigners who live in the UK don't have the same prejudices that I've picked up from growing up here; they've learnt as adults, they've rejected things which are irrational. I see this with my parents sometimes. (Of course, immigrants can be just as snobby as anyone else if they put their minds to it.)


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 10, 2007)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Not if you're white.


I'd say _not_ having street presence was the best way of avoiding any trouble. Don't look lost or indecisive, don't look at the scenery, just look like you know where you're going and you're on your way, you're just part of everyday life. Being black or white or hispanic in the wrong area is just an extra factor that can make you stand out.

eta: but of course in 99.99% of cases nobody cares anyway. Maybe you're an unusual sight in the area so they may look at you, but whatever.


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## Detroit City (Sep 10, 2007)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> I felt unsafe in both Baltimore and Philly when I first went there, in a way that I never did in London, where I'll walk anywhere.


most large cities in the US are intimidating if you're not used to them and almost all have areas where things are a bit shady and unsafe.  usually if you ask the locals they'll freely tell you where to stay away from cause its common knowledge.

in general if you see a lot of people who look like you and they're in the same socio-economic status then you should be fairly safe....but there are never any guarantees anywhere.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 10, 2007)

Yeah, but you can't always trust the locals. I imagine that most of my (very middle-class suburban) workmates would have told me to stay well away from some of the people I ended up talking to. My proper friends usually had good advice though.

Loads of Londoners would tell you to stay away from Brixton and watch your wallet and phone if you ever had to go through there.


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## chymaera (Sep 10, 2007)

Yuwipi Woman said:
			
		

> Part of being able to walk just about everywhere is attitude.



In some streets in some towns in Britain it has whether some people like it or not to do with what race you are and which street you intent to walk down.


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## Stanley Edwards (Sep 10, 2007)

I've only lived (for any reasonable time in the US) in NY, Boston and Jersey City (if that counts as not being NY). I never felt intimidated in any of those cities even though I explored all areas on foot.

The idea of armed security guys in Jersey City took a bit of getting used to and I regularly heard gun shots. However, I was pretty blind to the threats and unaware of any danger. Read the local papers, saw the gangs on street corners, the drug dealing, dodgy clubs and witnessed what I suspect were 'staged' shooting events in midtown NY clubs. None of it scared me. It all seemed like an act or, theatre I wasn't a part of. I once got hassled by a guy on a train insisting I was going back to his place. It didn't bother me. Next stop I just thumped him and got off the train.

In London, I can't recall one occasion when I had genuine reason to be concerned. Yet, I can recall many 'intimidating' walks home. Maybe that was just because I was more familiar with local and national media crap and rumour spreading? 

Strange that we *should* feel a little more uncomfortable in unfamiliar city environments. I rarely do. I suspect the unfamiliarity with local myths and a more open awareness of what the reality is has more to do with your own interpretations of any environment.

Maybe being blind to cultural differences is actually a very good thing when visiting foreign cities.


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## Detroit City (Sep 10, 2007)

Stanley Edwards said:
			
		

> Maybe being blind to cultural differences is actually a very good thing when visiting foreign cities.


True SE....but most visitors to foreign lands don't intend to go to the less desirable areas where crime is rampant.  They generally go to the tourist traps and such.

Personally i've never met an american who wanted to spend $3,000 to travel overseas to visit slums and see crime.  They can see that here for free.


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## PJW20 (Sep 10, 2007)

*'although there was a drive by shouting once'*

One way system, smooth and commendable,
go by bus, they're highly dependable,
the swings in the park, for the kids, have won awards,
clean streets acknowledged in The Lords,
but whats a park if you can't see a linnet?
a timetable if your journey's infinite?
My bag's packed and I'm leaving in a minute,
for what is Chatteris without you in it?

Car crime's low, gun crime's lower,
the town hall band CD, it's a grower,
you never hear of folk getting knocked on the bonce,
although there was a drive by shouting once,
but there's a brass band everywhere,
and I dont drive so I care,
and as a nightingale sang in berkley square,
what is chatteris if you're not there?

like a game-bird reserve short on pheasants,
weavers cottages devoid of tenants,
a market town that lacks quintessence,
that's Chatteris without your presence,
three good butcher's, two fine chandlers,
an indoor pool, a first class cake shop,
OFSTED plaudits, envy of the fens,
prick barriers at both ends,
But what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
what's Chatteris if you're not there?
I may as well be in Ely or Saint Ives.


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## mhendo (Sep 11, 2007)

D said:
			
		

> Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street...


Also, on the issue of people on the street: one of the reasons that cities like Baltimore and Detroit have become such havens for criminal activity, and therefore dangerous, is that those cities have so many empty buildings and half-abandoned neighborhoods, as described by *Yossarian*, above. This leaves lots of places where drug dealers and gangs can thrive without any oversight from law enforcement or from community members who want to keep their neighborhoods safe.

Anyone who's seen _The Corner_ or _The Wire_ knows the way that drug users and dealers use abandoned houses in Baltimore for dealing and shooting up. And once this starts in a neighborhood, the people who want to avoid crime and violence often move out, leading to further decay.

Baltimore and Detroit are both textbook examples of postwar "white flight," in which middle class white Americans fled the cities and moved to the suburbs, leaving behind mainly poorer, black residents. In the 1950s, Baltimore's population peaked at about 950,000 (in the city proper), and Detroit's peaked at almost 2 million. Now, Baltimore has about 670,000 and Detroit just dropped below 900,000. That's a net loss of about 300,000 in Baltimore, and about 1 million in Detroit. When that many people leave, there are lots of abandoned houses and small businesses. Baltimore currently has between 10,000 and 15,000 abandoned houses.

Of course, the decline in population lowers the tax base, leaving the city with less money to provide schools, services, etc. To maintain its income, the city raises property taxes. Faced with declining services and rising taxes, even more residents choose to flee to the suburbs, continuing a vicious cycle of decline. While it's very easy to complain about the consequences of gentrification, with its influx of yuppies, at least it can help prevent cities fall into this poverty trap. What we need is urban policy that seeks to make city life livable for people from low income backgrounds, rather than (a) abandoning them to destitution and violence, or (b) forcing them out and replacing them with dot com workers and investment bankers, a la San Francisco.






			
				Detroit City said:
			
		

> especially if they have a Glock 9mm and you have nothing


Anecdote time.

A few weeks ago, my partner and i spent two weeks in New York. We have a very small back yard where we grow tomatoes during the summer, and the evening before we left Baltimore, i went to our next-door neighbor's place to give them a bag of tomatoes that would otherwise have gone to waste. Our neighbors are an older white couple, probably late 60s, and obviously of working class background, even though they seem pretty comfortable financially. 

I knocked on the door at about 8pm, as it was getting dark. At first i thought no-one was home, but then the husband came to the door, saw who it was, and opened up. "Oh, it's you Mike. Sorry i took so long, but i had to get this," he said, pulling a big handgun from the back of his waistband. It was a large-calibre revolver--a Beretta, i think he said--and he told me that he never answers the door without it after dark.


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> I knocked on the door at about 8pm, as it was getting dark. At first i thought no-one was home, but then the husband came to the door, saw who it was, and opened up. "Oh, it's you Mike. Sorry i took so long, but i had to get this," he said, pulling a big handgun from the back of his waistband. It was a large-calibre revolver--a Beretta, i think he said--and he told me that he never answers the door without it after dark.


welcome to america 

where most people live in fear


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.
> 
> No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.
> 
> ...



I've always made it a point to drive to the dodgiest parts of every large city I visit in the US. In Chicago, I went to the south side, and drove down side streets in order to find the poorest, most desperate areas. When I did, I'd go into the local markets to buy things, and suss the place out.

In LA, I drove through Watts, Compton, etc, in SF, it was Oakland. In all these occasions, I was driving a vehicle with British Columbia plates.

The only places I felt a bit uneasy, was in East St. Louis, the most blighted urban environment I've ever encountered in the US; in East LA, where some of the hispanic brothers didn't seem to appreciate us too much,  and in an all white neighborhood in South San Francisco.

I never felt in imminent physical danger, although when I came back and told a black friend from St. Louis about my trip to East St. Louis, he said something like 'you crazy!' But he's an american, with american prejudices.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

I think part of the reason I don't have a lot of trouble in the poorest areas of american cities is because I have brown skin and curly hair, but I have a white wife, and mixed kids, and it still doesn't seem a problem.

That same grouping got us some uneasy glances etc in Montana and Idaho, though.

Prejudice is a funny thing. Once, in LA, we stopped for some food and drink at a fast food place, then headed out onto a major street. At a light, there were a couple of mexicans selling oranges, like they do at intersections.

These two mexicans started pointing at our car and yelling in spanish. We thought: 'this is it: we're going to be killed by crazy mexicans.'

They kept pointing and yelling, and as soon as the light changed, we drove off. 

A couple of blocks later, we stopped for some reason; we got out of the car, and realized that when we'd left the fast food joint, we'd left one of the drinks on the roof of the car. The mexicans were just trying to point that out to us, in Spanish.

We felt pretty dumb.


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I never felt in imminent physical danger,


cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> I'd say _not_ having street presence was the best way of avoiding any trouble. Don't look lost or indecisive, don't look at the scenery, just look like you know where you're going and you're on your way, you're just part of everyday life. Being black or white or hispanic in the wrong area is just an extra factor that can make you stand out.
> 
> eta: but of course in 99.99% of cases nobody cares anyway. Maybe you're an unusual sight in the area so they may look at you, but whatever.



When we're travelling, we stop, spill out of the car, and start gawking and pointing at everything around us. We're the quintessential google eyed tourists. Seems most people find it quaint; they're usually smiling.

Sometimes, street beggars will pick up on who we are, and come over. I've had guys try to sell me watches in the garment district of LA, and clothes at gas stations in Kansas City. Luckily, I come from a place where you learn how to deal effectively and pleasantly with that stuff, and it works on panhandlers in the US just like it does in Vancouver.

I bought a case of beer in Seattle once, and while walking down the street, this gang of scruffy looking white street types came up and asked for a beer. They felt a little bit menacing: maybe it's because they were white.

I said sorry man, I really  need all these beers for myself. They laughed with understanding, and kept walking.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours



I guess you missed the part about going into the markets etc.

I'll admit, however, that I wouldn't have gotten out of my car in East St. Louis. It's wrong that a place like that exists.


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> I'll admit, however, that I wouldn't have gotten out of my car in East St. Louis. It's wrong that a place like that exists.


you probably wouldn't get out of your car in the cass corridor in downtown detroit either....i know i wouldn't.

for a few years in the 70's that 2 mile square region had the highest murder rate in the N. America


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> you probably wouldn't get out of your car in the cass corridor in downtown detroit either....i know i wouldn't.
> 
> for a few years in the 70's that 2 mile square region had the highest murder rate in the N. America



Are they just shooting random people on the street, or is it bad drug deals etc?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Not, strictly speaking, on topic, but an interesting site:

http://www.american-pictures.com/gallery/index.html


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Are they just shooting random people on the street, or is it bad drug deals etc?


it was  a mix of everything.....just black angst i guess.   did you ever see any of the blaxploitation films of the 1970s?   sorta like that.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> it was  a mix of everything.....just black angst i guess.   did you ever see any of the blaxploitation films of the 1970s?   sorta like that.



Yeah, I did see those movies, and I thought that they were works of exploitative fiction, for the most part.


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Yeah, I did see those movies, and I thought that they were works of exploitative fiction, for the most part.


they were works of exploitative fiction that were based in reality....


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 11, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> they were works of exploitative fiction that were based in reality....



Sort of like James Bond movies are loosely based on reality.


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## JoMo1953 (Sep 11, 2007)

ska invita said:
			
		

> On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.
> 
> No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.
> 
> ...


Given the current gang violence going on in Compton I would agree with your friends...Compton is currently a "no-go zone"  I live in LA and while I don't live in a "dodgy" area now I lived in Venice for many years an area referred to as "Oakwood" nasty area, lots of street violence, street dealers, bad gang violence, etc.  19 murders (drive by shootings) in 1 year in a 2 mile square radius......you get the picture.

I've got no problem going to certain areas in South Central at any time of night and have never had a problem, but it's not an area you should be stumbling around in if you don't have some "street smarts".  Drive by shootings are the "norm" here in LA, certain areas are best left alone.


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## JoMo1953 (Sep 11, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> cause you were in a bleedin' car....you should have gotten out and walked around for a couple hours


People don't realize how spread out LA is.....not an easy thing to just walk around in....if you live in LA a car is really a must....we have shit mass transit!


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## Detroit City (Sep 11, 2007)

JoMo1953 said:
			
		

> People don't realize how spread out LA is.....not an easy thing to just walk around in....if you live in LA a car is really a must....we have shit mass transit!


no, i meant gotten out of the car in Watts or Compton and walked around....


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## JoMo1953 (Sep 11, 2007)

Ska Invita...what part of LA where you staying in when you visited?


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## Crispy (Sep 11, 2007)

mhendo said:
			
		

> he told me that he never answers the door without it after dark.


I wonder if he's ever had to use it? Or if it would help him one little bit if he tried to?


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## 1927 (Sep 11, 2007)

I was expecting alsorts of near death experiences from urbanites in US no-go areas on this thread!

Once when in Chicago, at 3am and after a night in a blues bar well north of the Loop I decided to walk back to my hotel. Walking due south I realised I was well to the west of where I needed to be. Coming across a road at 45 degrees I decided to change direction, on the basis that walking the hypotenuse has to be quicker that walking the other two sides. Normally of course this would have been excellent logic and made my walk home quicker and more pleasant. Unfortunately after a few minutes the footpaths ran out on my new route, and shortly afterwards the street lighting. I then had probably the most frightening half hour of my life as I walked, jogged and at one point sprinted faster than Linford Christie from the homeless, puimps and drug dealers who tried to befriend me in the heart of Cabrini Green!

Since that night I have spoken to various people who have said I was lucky to get thru that. Even Chicago policemen have told me they are not allowed to patrol there without some serious back up.


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## D (Sep 11, 2007)

Stanley Edwards said:
			
		

> I think this is a culturally alienated type of sensation. That part of Berlin is typically European IMO even with the unsettling 'old East' still lingering close by. It's an area of Berlin I love. Fully understand why you feel a bit edgy, but I don't think it's relevant to the opening post of this thread.
> 
> Have you explored Planterwald yet?
> 
> Very, very, very unsettling



I don't know that it comes down principally to cultural alienation...I used to have the same sensation when I was walking through the Outer Sunset at night in San Francisco.  If someone was going to jump/rob/rape me, that was a great place for them to do it...not a soul around at night.


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## Stanley Edwards (Sep 11, 2007)

D said:
			
		

> I don't know that it comes down principally to cultural alienation...I used to have the same sensation when I was walking through the Outer Sunset at night in San Francisco.  If someone was going to jump/rob/rape me, that was a great place for them to do it...not a soul around at night.



But, you grew up in the culture of NY.




			
				D said:
			
		

> Growing up in NY conditioned me to feel safe when there were people on the street, even if those people are not always folks I'd immediately invite round for tea.




Many European cities traditionally have quiet areas and central parkland that are used late at night. Admittedly, crime levels have risen and more people probably feel nervous in areas with less people around today. Pretty sure crossing Central Park at 3am back in the 70's and 80's would have been even more unsettling? Or, has Manhattan always been relatively wealthy and free from muggings in Central Park?

Perhaps not cultural alienation (afterall, we're all turning into one ugly mono-culture), perhaps just a cultural difference. Taking your own NY conditioning into a different environment.


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## D (Sep 11, 2007)

Stanley Edwards said:
			
		

> But, you grew up in the culture of NY.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, yes, I understand what you mean.  It is a cultural difference.  And, no I certainly wouldn't have gone for a stroll through Central Park in the middle of the night in the 80s, but I also wouldn't do it today...Riding through the park, though, I'd have no problem...and at present in Berlin, it's primarily the fact of having to get off my bike and carry it on my back that makes me question my safety.  Having said that, there is absolutely no one around and Neukölln is not a well off neighborhood with a large Turkish and immigrant population (and, apparently, it's evidently a "slum" to some people I've met...which goes to show that my context for/perception of urban poverty is vastly different), but I doubt that there's much actual risk. The feeling is a kind of fleeting recognition of the circumstances more than a serious sense of fear...for example, I often thought the same while I was standing in my alleyway entrance in SF, bag full of stuff, bike over one shoulder, angling my keys into the gate.  Lots of unsavory characters around...again, a great moment for someone to rob me if they were so inclined, and though I can't substantiate this claim, I suspect that I was at greater, actual, empirical risk of violent incident there than I am where I live now.  Or moments very early in the morning walking through the Tenderloin in SF on my way to the airport with a huge bag...but in part because it was where I lived for years without any problem, I rarely felt concerned...just an acknowledgment of the circumstances, I suppose.

Manhattan has most certainly not been free of muggings or other violence...in fact, Central Park was the site of some very well known and horrific incidents of rape...there was a famous incident with a 5 am jogger (perhaps more than one) in the 80s or 90s...I can't recall all the details at the moment...


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## phildwyer (Sep 11, 2007)

D said:
			
		

> Manhattan has most certainly not been free of muggings or other violence...in fact, Central Park was the site of some very well known and horrific incidents of rape...there was a famous incident with a 5 am jogger (perhaps more than one) in the 80s or 90s...I can't recall all the details at the moment...



A bunch of black kids were stitched up for that.  It became a cause celebre, the kids had supposedly said they were out 'wilding' (it was a reporter's mishearing of 'wild thing,' which means 'sex'), and it was one of the main cases that led to the election of Giuliani and the disasters that ensued.  A few years later a homeless guy confessed to the rape and all the convicted kids were exonerated by DNA evidence.

Its funny about race in the US.  I have no problem living in black neighborhoods, and in fact I usually do.  But there are lots of neighborhoods where I wouldn't dream of going at night because they're black or Latino *and* drug-ridden.  So being white I'd stand out in an area full of desperados looking for the next fix, which is plain daft.  But I'd go to a drug-ridden white neighborhood any time, because I wouldn't stand out.  And there you have it.


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## Reno (Sep 12, 2007)

1927 said:
			
		

> Seconded. I would rather walk the streets of NY at 3am than the streets in certain parts of Cardiff, my home city!



NY is now considered one of the safest cities in the US, so no wonder.


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## Hitman Tim (Sep 16, 2007)

This is my roommates AK-47.  He's a very paranoid person.


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## JoMo1953 (Sep 16, 2007)

Hitman Tim said:
			
		

> This is my roommates AK-47.  He's a very paranoid person.


  Very poor tast to be posting something like this on Urban75......

Terrific another college student (who happens to live in Virgina) with an assualt rifle..... 

(debating rather or not to report this post and maybe stop another university rampage????)


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 16, 2007)

We can only hope that it's a replica. He does look like a headjob, though.

Maybe you should look into it.


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## Detroit City (Sep 16, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> He does look like a headjob, though.


from the side he looks a bit like Tim McVeigh, aka Mr. Oklahoma City


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 16, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> from the side he looks a bit like Tim McVeigh, aka Mr. Oklahoma City



Yeah, Tim McVeigh reincarnated as a meth addict.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Sep 16, 2007)

Btw, Tim: that's not, er, you, by any chance?


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## Detroit City (Sep 16, 2007)

Johnny Canuck2 said:
			
		

> Btw, Tim: that's not, er, you, by any chance?


hahahaha I didn't even notice his user name has Tim in it


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## Gavin Bl (Sep 21, 2007)

Interesting stuff on Baltimore, one of the saddest vistas I've ever seen were some of the streets there when my Amtrak rolled through on the way to DC.


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## mears (Sep 22, 2007)

Detroit City said:
			
		

> within 3 miles of the white house and capitol hill you can pick up a street-walking prostitues.   literally in the shadow of the entire US govt.
> 
> you could probably buy an illegal handgun and some crack too



DC is a cool city. I lived in DC and right outside of DC in Arlington Virginia for 7years - 4 college and 3 working. I dated a girl close to Capitol Hill, and it was a scary experience at times walking or driving to her place. Adams Morgan And Dupont Square are cool spots in DC as is the area near Siver Spring MD like Tinley Town. 

I have been to Baltimore a couple times and don't like it at all.


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## 888 (Apr 18, 2008)

ska invita said:


> On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.
> 
> No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.
> 
> ...




My experience is there aren't any no go zones, people in the US are just hysterically scared of everything.


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## Poi E (Apr 19, 2008)

We ended up in SC LA on a drivea few months back. Just had a few homeboys shouting "Eldo, Eldo" as we cruised past in our 76 Eldorado .

I guess it's what a lot of scared rich people don't realise-the crime is usually poor people against poor people.


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## Rainingstairs (May 20, 2008)

ska invita said:


> On a recent trip to LA i asked the family i was staying with to drive through compton - just to see what the less glossy side of the town looked like.
> 
> No one I was staying with would agree even to drive through Compton - they said it just wasnt worth the risk.
> 
> ...



I used to drive through Compton all the time. and I'd roll my window down just so people would see i was just a little Asian girl not out to make any trouble.

I can't speak for white people however, LA is very racially segregated. but for every person like me who didn't have any problems, there's someone else who did.

one of my friends sister's got chopped up and they never even found all of her. It was (korean) gang related.


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