# Irish Republican POW protest Glasgow



## fiannanahalba (Mar 10, 2011)

Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.
Assemble outside Bairds Bar, Gallowgate, Glasgow 1pm Sat 12th March. All republicans of all orgs and none welcome. Organised by 32CSM Scotland.

They are in there for us, be out there for them.

Beir Bua.


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## dylans (Mar 10, 2011)

Today would be Bobby Sands 57th birthday.. Bless him and all Republican POWs and may Thatcher burn in hell


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.
> Assemble outside Bairds Bar, Gallowgate, Glasgow 1pm Sat 12th March. All republicans of all orgs and none welcome. *Organised by 32CSM Scotland*.
> 
> They are in there for us, be out there for them.
> ...


 
I would stay clear of them.


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 10, 2011)

Whys that?


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## N_igma (Mar 10, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Whys that?


 
Links to the RIRA perhaps?


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## dylanredefined (Mar 10, 2011)

I thought they got let out with the good Friday agreement?So whose still in jail and why?


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## N_igma (Mar 10, 2011)

dylanredefined said:


> I thought they got let out with the good Friday agreement?So whose still in jail and why?


 
Dissident Republicans and a few who got their licences revoked for engaging in criminal behaviour whilst free. One of the stipulations was that if you were convicted of a crime you went back to finish off your original sentence.


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## dylanredefined (Mar 10, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Dissident Republicans and a few who got their licences revoked for engaging in criminal behaviour whilst free. One of the stipulations was that if you were convicted of a crime you went back to finish off your original sentence.


 
 Cheers for the info.Really depends on the individual if you get thrown back into jail for a minor crime that kinda sucks ,but,if your trying to start the war up again
no real sympathy.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Your license is only revoked if you get involved with a illegal organisation or commit violent crimes, petty crimes and most other for that matter don't count, I know of one fella who was caught burgling a post office but as no violence or weapons were involved it did not impact on his license.


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## tar1984 (Mar 10, 2011)

I'd also need to know what types of crime they're getting locked back up for.  If it's drug running or something they hardly deserve political status.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> I'd also need to know what types of crime they're getting locked back up for.  If it's drug running or something they hardly deserve political status.


 
Despite what the media continually trot out, no active Republican from any organisation has ever been convicted of drugs dealing, one Sinn Fein member was caught with a bit of cannabis stuck down his sock so I would hardly count that as drug running.


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## tar1984 (Mar 10, 2011)

So what types of crimes are we talking then?  Above you say it could be violent crime, do you think they deserve political status?


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## N_igma (Mar 10, 2011)

Drug dealing is primarily an activity of the loyalist organisations.


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## N_igma (Mar 10, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> So what types of crimes are we talking then?  Above you say it could be violent crime, do you think they deserve political status?


 
Sean Kelly was sent back to prison a few years ago for taking part in a riot although he was released soon after. I'm not sure of other examples, I know a loyalist scum bag was sent back for punching the head of two sisters in a pub.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> So what types of crimes are we talking then?  Above you say it could be violent crime, do you think they deserve political status?


 
Yes I think they deserve political status though I disagree with what they are doing.


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## tar1984 (Mar 10, 2011)

I'm undecided.  One one hand if the offence is part of a political action then political status is fair enough.  On the other they only got let out because of the peace agreement so if they're not sticking to it then fuck em.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> I'm undecided.  One one hand if the offence is part of a political action then political status is fair enough.  On the other they only got let out because of the peace agreement so if they're not sticking to it then fuck em.


 
Most of those in now were not released under the good friday, there would only be probably half a dozen at the most who fall into that category.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Despite what the media continually trot out, no active Republican from any organisation has ever been convicted of drugs dealing, one Sinn Fein member was caught with a bit of cannabis stuck down his sock so I would hardly count that as drug running.


 
This is an utter lie. Don't spout bullshit pal.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I would stay clear of them.


 
32CSM are accused of being the political wing of the real ira.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> This is an utter lie. Don't spout bullshit pal.


 
in that case you'll have no trouble producing evidence for your claim.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> 32CSM are accused of being the political wing of the real ira.


 
and? what's the point you're trying so hard to make here?


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> This is an utter lie. Don't spout bullshit pal.


 
Link?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba

that's shut you up


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## likesfish (Mar 10, 2011)

thought the accepted view was
as long as the cause got a cut you kept your kneecaps.
   The idea that only nasty loyalists sold drugs has to be barking mad Catholics take drugs they didn't buy them off loylists hanging around outside school did they.?


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## N_igma (Mar 10, 2011)

likesfish said:


> thought the accepted view was
> as long as the cause got a cut you kept your kneecaps.
> The idea that only nasty loyalists sold drugs has to be barking mad Catholics take drugs they didn't buy them off loylists hanging around outside school did they.?


 
The source for most of the drug dealing business came from loyalist paramilitaries. Yeh they sold drugs to a Catholic hoods who took them back to Catholic areas to sell. I'm not saying republicans are completely blameless when it comes to selling drugs either. I'm sure a few were making money on the side but it definitely wasn't something that permeated through all ranks of their organisations like it did with loyalists.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

yeh but can we wait for allybaba to make up find some evidence, instead of making vague statements?


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but can we wait for allybaba to make up find some evidence, instead of making vague statements?


 
https://www.tribune.ie/archive/arti...ce-and-murder-how-the-inla-is-taking-over-dr/

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...of-increased-real-ira-drugs-war-14674583.html

Hopefully that shuts your fucking hole for abit. Republicans ain't angels....


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

likesfish said:


> thought the accepted view was
> as long as the cause got a cut you kept your kneecaps.
> The idea that only nasty loyalists sold drugs has to be barking mad Catholics take drugs they didn't buy them off loylists hanging around outside school did they.?


 
It is not accepted at all, there have been a few ex Republicans who became drug dealers shot dead by former comrades and others still at it, but it is a real no no to deal drugs in Catholic areas, not saying it does not happen but any active Republican would be exposed in a matter of days if not hours.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> It is not accepted at all, there have been a few ex Republicans who became drug dealers shot dead by former comrades and others still at it, but it is a real no no to deal drugs in Catholic areas, not saying it does not happen but any active Republican would be exposed in a matter of days if not hours.


 
I  agree with you. Publically they still want to be seen as the 'enforcers' of law and order. But everyone is at it in reality.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> https://www.tribune.ie/archive/arti...ce-and-murder-how-the-inla-is-taking-over-dr/
> 
> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...of-increased-real-ira-drugs-war-14674583.html
> 
> Hopefully that shuts your fucking hole for abit. Republicans ain't angels....


 
All you have done is put links up too a couple of papers,  Are you really saying that is your proof?


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> All you have done is put links up too a couple of papers,  Are you really saying that is your proof?


 
Aye. Its common knowledge pal. Are you suggesting both papers made these stories up to tarnish the republican image? If so you are living in cloud cuckoo land.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

How can you deny this story?- 

http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/ira-crime-godfathers-are-winning-drugs-war-131841.html


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Aye. Its common knowledge pal.


 
I can post up some links to people who have been abducted by ufo's and others that the yanks were responsible themselves for the twin towers. It used to be common knowledge that all black men were great dancers, had massive dicks and were really bad swimmers because they have heavy bones, not too mention that all black women were easy. Do you get my drift? you are unable to post details of active Republicans being convicted of drug dealing or drug running because non exists, because it is not true.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

A hack told me this personally. One that I trust. Face facts mate, the republicans ain't all angels. Some of them are utter scum just like in any other group or movement.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> A hack told me this personally. One that I trust. Face facts mate, the republicans ain't all angels. Some of them are utter scum just like in any other group or movement.


 
I am not disputing any of what you just said, just because I say Republicans don't deal drugs does not mean that I am blind to others faults, I have lived in Belfast for over 20 years and do not know or have not heard of a single active Republican who has been involved in drugs and you believe me, they would be exposed very very quickly.


By the way, Why did you not ask the hack for some names?  I know of only one Republican activist who has a drugs conviction and that was when he had dropped out of politics due to some really bad personal domestic and financial problems, when he finally got his shit back together he became one of the dedicated and courageous anti drugs activists that I have ever met or heard of.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I am not disputing any of what you just said, just because I say Republicans don't deal drugs does not mean that I am blind to others faults, I have lived in Belfast for over 20 years and do not know or have not heard of a single active Republican who has been involved in drugs and you believe me, they would be exposed very very quickly.


 
Fair enough. I agree most of the stuff I have heard is from Dublin and not Belfast. 

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dissidents-find-new-cause-in-drug-war-2343600.html

'They're Celtic supporters with guns,' says a senior republican. 'They don't know any rebel songs, only Celtic songs'-that made me chuckle.

BTW- just to make clear I know most republicans are 'anti drugs'.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Fair enough. I agree most of the stuff I have heard is from Dublin and not Belfast.
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/national-news/dissidents-find-new-cause-in-drug-war-2343600.html
> 
> 'They're Celtic supporters with guns,' says a senior republican. 'They don't know any rebel songs, only Celtic songs'-that made me chuckle.


 
The thing is, I know some of the people in Dublin that they have names as drug dealers and they are amongst the most anti drugs people that I know, what you need to bear in mind is that non of the people named can exactly sue for defamation, Can they? and the papers won't give a right of reply so they have no way of defending themselves against these allegations.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> The thing is, I know some of the people in Dublin that they have names as drug dealers and they are amongst the most anti drugs people that I know, what you need to bear in mind is that non of the people named can exactly sue for defamation, Can they? and the papers won't give a right of reply so they have no way of defending themselves against these allegations.


 I don't know about sueing for defamation Deareg. There should be a way of defending themselves against these allegations if they have not allready done so?


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## LiamO (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> 'They're Celtic supporters with guns,' *says a senior republican*. 'They don't know any rebel songs, only Celtic songs'-that made me chuckle.


 
says a made-up republican. Typical free-state hack.

He probably took the quote from Henry McDonald's 'Colours' where it was attributed to one of Henry's (Sticky) uncles talking about the Provos. 

Anybody who actually knew any northern Celtic fans would know that knowing LOTS of 'Rebel songs' and NO Celtic FC  songs is a trademark of the type of people this quote is aimed at. Lazy fuckin hack. And lazy you for quoting the cunt.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

LiamO said:


> says a made-up republican. Typical free-state hack.
> 
> He probably took the quote from Henry McDonald's 'Colours' where it was attributed to one of Henry's (Sticky) uncles talking about the Provos.
> 
> Anybody who actually knew any northern Celtic fans would know that knowing LOTS of 'Rebel songs' and NO Celtic FC  songs is a trademark of the type of people this quote is aimed at. Lazy fuckin hack. And lazy you for quoting the cunt.


 
In my defence I was actually laughing at it because it was stupid.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I don't know about sueing for defamation Deareg. There should be a way of defending themselves against these allegations if they have not allready done so?


 
Not through the courts because they all have convictions for some quite heavy politically motivated activities, they do it through working in their local communities where they are very well respected and trusted.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg;11585180]Despite what the media continually trot out said:


> yeh but can we wait for allybaba to make up find some evidence, instead of making vague statements?


 


allybaba said:


> https://www.tribune.ie/archive/arti...ce-and-murder-how-the-inla-is-taking-over-dr/
> 
> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...of-increased-real-ira-drugs-war-14674583.html
> 
> Hopefully that shuts your fucking hole for abit. Republicans ain't angels....


 you're full of shit. we're waiting for you to produce evidence that an active republican from any organisation has been jailed for drug dealing. i didn't ask 'post up some auld shite', i asked for evidence of your assertion that deareg was lying - so put up some evidence of a republican being jailed for dealing or apologise all round.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're full of shit. we're waiting for you to produce evidence that an active republican from any organisation has been jailed for drug dealing. i didn't ask 'post up some auld shite', i asked for evidence of your assertion that deareg was lying - so put up some evidence of a republican being jailed for dealing or apologise all round.


 
I think my 'evidence' shows some element of republican involvement in drug dealing and protection in Southern Ireland. I apologise it I have offended anyone.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> How can you deny this story?-
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/ira-crime-godfathers-are-winning-drugs-war-131841.html


i do not deny it is a story, but i do deny it contains any mention of republicans being convicted of dealing drugs.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I think my 'evidence' shows some element of republican involvement in drug dealing and protection in Southern Ireland. I apologise it I have offended anyone.


 
no, it shows that some people say that there is some element of republican involvement in drug dealing and protection in the 26 counties. it does not prove that there is republican involvement in drug dealing and protection in the 26 counties.

oh - and apologise all you like, first and foremost to deareg who you've called a liar despite producing no evidence to support your claim.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

*taps watch*


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Just because you have not been jailed for things, does not mean you are innocent.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> *taps watch*


 
I will leave the republican fan boys alone now. Hope you get your united ireland and your state socialism.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Just because you have not been jailed for things, does not mean you are innocent.


 
i think what you mean is you're conceding the point.

an apology to deareg wouldn't go amiss.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I will leave the republican fan boys alone now. Hope you get your united ireland and your state socialism.


 
off you scurry with your tail between your legs.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

I apoligise deareg.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Im scurrying (don't want knee capped)


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I apoligise deareg.


 
that shows a nice spirit


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> that shows a nice spirit


 
No seriously, I couldn't provide the evidence so fair enough- I should not have said it was bullshit. Hopefully I have provided some debate etc.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Just because you have not been jailed for things, does not mean you are innocent.


 
And just because you can't prove I am a liar does not mean I am not?


eta- Thankyou and thanks to Pickmans for pointing it out as I had forgotten.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> And just because you can't prove I am a liar does not mean I am not?


 
Didn't say that did I.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Didn't say that did I.


 
I was being sarky, my connection is playing up, I enjoyed the debate to be honest.


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## manny-p (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I was being sarky, my connection is playing up, I enjoyed the debate to be honest.


 
So did I. For the record im a celtic supporter


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## LiamO (Mar 10, 2011)

allybaba said:


> For the record im a celtic supporter


 
But do you know any rebel songs?

Celtic fans? Sectarians the whole lot of 'em. I had one in the back of my cab once...



btw alibaba... You could have just said "worrabout the IPLO? They wre republicas who openly admitted to financing themselves through the narcotics trade. "

But you didn't. never mind. Too late now


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

LiamO said:


> I had one in the back of my cab once...


 i bet you did you dirty sod.


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

LiamO said:


> But do you know any rebel songs?
> 
> Celtic fans? Sectarians the whole lot of 'em. I had one in the back of my cab once...
> 
> ...


 
Did they actually admit to that Liam?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Did they actually admit to that Liam?


 
there's this http://tinyurl.com/62jp8wg on the subject


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## Deareg (Mar 10, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there's this http://tinyurl.com/62jp8wg on the subject


 
Thanks for that but it is the same old nonsense, the reasons I asked was I just thought it was probably the same old smears.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 10, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Thanks for that but it is the same old nonsense, the reasons I asked was I just thought it was probably the same old smears.


 
yeh, i agree - but nice to see it all reduced to one page


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## fiannanahalba (Mar 10, 2011)

Some IPLO were hoods - mostly their Belfast unit. In other parts of the North they certainly werent.


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## LiamO (Mar 11, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Did they actually admit to that Liam?


 
IIRC Jimmy Brown did an extensive interview in which he justified narcotics trading as a legitimate 'means to an end'.

The IPLO were the nearest thing republicans ever had in terms of structure and M.O. to a loyalist gang.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

LiamO said:


> IIRC Jimmy Brown did an extensive interview in which he justified narcotics trading as a legitimate 'means to an end'.
> 
> The IPLO were the nearest thing republicans ever had in terms of structure and M.O. to a loyalist gang.


 
To be fair I think there is a lot of moralising about 'drug dealing' some of the punishments dished out by republicans to small time dealers of what I would call 'soft drugs' have been way over the top. When you consider how dangerous and toxic alcohol is, which is left alone because it is not deemed illegal by the state.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Some IPLO were hoods - mostly their Belfast unit. In other parts of the North they certainly werent.


 
So any republican who goes into criminality is then a hood? Wash your hands clean of them etc.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

LiamO said:


> But do you know any rebel songs?
> 
> Celtic fans? Sectarians the whole lot of 'em. I had one in the back of my cab once...
> 
> ...


 
The IPLO were the ones that were forcibly disbanded by the provos right?


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## Deareg (Mar 11, 2011)

LiamO said:


> IIRC Jimmy Brown did an extensive interview in which he justified narcotics trading as a legitimate 'means to an end'.
> 
> The IPLO were the nearest thing republicans ever had in terms of structure and M.O. to a loyalist gang.


 
I have heard all the horror stories about the drug dealing and other things but of the ex IPLO men that I have met have most have been sound as fuck and quite politically minded and just do not fit in to the image that was painted of them, every Republican group had it's share of scumbags and ne'er do wells and I am left wondering whether they have been unfairly labelled.


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## Deareg (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> The IPLO were the ones that were forcibly disbanded by the provos right?


 
Correct.


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## Deareg (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> So any republican who goes into criminality is then a hood? Wash your hands clean of them etc.


 
If only it was as clean cut.


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## Divisive Cotton (Mar 11, 2011)

LiamO said:


> The IPLO were the nearest thing republicans ever had in terms of structure and M.O. to a loyalist gang.


 
After reading Scott Millers book I think that "Group B" could have been the frontrunners for this title


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## N_igma (Mar 11, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> After reading Scott Millers book I think that "Group B" could have been the frontrunners for this title


 
Who the INLA?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Who the INLA?


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 11, 2011)




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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


>


 Am I still talking shite about republican's being involved in unsavoury stuff?


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## Divisive Cotton (Mar 11, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Who the INLA?


 
the stickies


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> the stickies


 
That would be the official IRA to the non dissident group specialists.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Am I still talking shite about republican's being involved in unsavoury stuff?


 
you are.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> That would be the official IRA to the non dissident group specialists.


close but no cigar - group b was the post-official ira ceasefire official ira.


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## N_igma (Mar 11, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> the stickies


 
How do you work that one out?


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> close but no cigar - group b was the post-official ira ceasefire official ira.



Jeez  I meant the stickies were the official ira. I didn't know who group b were, but thanks for clarifying that.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Do you guys support the knee capping and beatings and killings of all drug dealers? Or don't you think there is a difference from someone selling ectasy and someone else selling heroin?


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you are.


 
Liam has told you about the IPLO. Are you saying he is lying?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Liam has told you about the IPLO. Are you saying he is lying?


 
no, i am saying YOU are talking shite.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i am saying YOU are talking shite.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Do you guys support the knee capping and beatings and killings of all drug dealers? Or don't you think there is a difference from someone selling ectasy and someone else selling heroin?


 do you hear that grinding sound? it's the sound of the goalposts you're moving.

and there is a clear difference between selling drugs and topping dealers.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> do you hear that grinding sound? it's the sound of the goalposts you're moving.
> 
> and there is a clear difference between selling drugs and topping dealers.


 
I ain't moving any goal posts. I am putting a new set up. I notice you didn't answer my question. Perhaps you have a career in Sinn Féin.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I ain't moving any goal posts. I am putting a new set up.


 because you've proved unable to score with the old set, no doubt.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> because you've proved unable to score with the old set, no doubt.


 
No one of your own admitted the shady goings on in the republican camp.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Liam has told you about the IPLO. Are you saying he is lying?


 
he certainly hasn't provided us with anything concrete, such as what might be dropped on your knees and elbows.


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> No one of your own admitted the shady goings on in the republican camp.


 
who do you mean by 'your own'?


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> he certainly hasn't provided us with anything concrete, such as what might be dropped on your knees and elbows.


 
Are you threatening me? So this is debate in the republican camp....


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> who do you mean by 'your own'?


 
Liam


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Are you threatening me? So this is debate in the republican camp....


 
no, i'm not threatening you. why would i want to threaten a loser like you?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Liam


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i'm not threatening you. why would i want to threaten a loser like you?





> such as what might be dropped on your knees and elbows


 That is not a threat?


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## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> That is not a threat?


 
no, it is not a threat.


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## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, it is not a threat.


 
Aye whatever pal.


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## N_igma (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Aye whatever pal.


 
Trying to tell me you've never heard of Group 75? The Urban IRA?


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## AKA pseudonym (Mar 11, 2011)

ffs: what a circular discussion about nothing...
There are people locked up for their political beliefs who have not been convicted of any 'crime', these people rightly or wrongly maintain that the British presence within our Isle has to be removed...
To me they are 'political prisoners' and as such under the Geneva convention must be treated as such...
The 'drug-dealing/gangster' smears are tired cliches as Im sure those living in the 6 counties and our Island can attest to...
One persons freedom fighter is anothers terrorist...
btw: Bradley Manning in the states is enduring horrific conditions much like those in Ireland...
Although Politically I may not agree with certain military organisations positions here, they should be afforded the human rights all are entitled to.....


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Although Politically I may not agree with certain military organisations positions here, they should be afforded the human rights all are entitled to.....


 
What like being able to post here without having threats of concrete blocks being dropped on my knees and elbows.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> What like being able to post here without having threats of concrete blocks being dropped on my knees and elbows.


if it makes you feel any better i'll threaten you. no one's threatened you yet, but if you want that situation can change.

and why stop at concrete blocks? i can threaten you with something better if you'd like.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if it makes you feel any better i'll threaten you. no one's threatened you yet, but if you want that situation can change.
> 
> and why stop at concrete blocks? i can threaten you with something better if you'd like.


 
Charming. I won't post here anymore. You have won. Another victory for the republicans! Out of interest what can you threaten me with?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 11, 2011)

N_igma said:


> How do you work that one out?


 
According to Scott Miller's book Group A and Group B spent 20 years in political and criminal partnership with the Loyalists


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Charming. I won't post here anymore. You have won. Another victory for the republicans! Out of interest what can you threaten me with?


 
We are the best at fighting each other and making threats, us Irish.Makes ye proud.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Charming. I won't post here anymore. You have won. Another victory for the republicans! Out of interest what can you threaten me with?


 
what would you like?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what would you like?


 
I would like an end to these threats. On 2nd thought I won't leave this forum just because of your threats. Chill out, wind your neck in and all will be forgotten.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> What like being able to post here without having threats of concrete blocks being dropped on my knees and elbows.



well.. I remember being in a car with a certain gentleman who got stopped by the cops.. on opening his boot, they found some breeze blocks.... We passed through...
His nickname was breezy... due to his prefered method of 'punishment'.... I really havent a clue what you are refering to unless u knew breeezy as he was the only 'volunteer' who used this method...
btw: he was well pissed off when scap was unmasked as a state asset


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 11, 2011)

Someone has made threats on the internets. Oh noes!

But knowing pickmans he'll be alluding to something else that you've failed to deduce.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Someone has made threats on the internets. Oh noes!
> 
> But knowing pickmans he'll be alluding to something else that you've failed to deduce.


 
Aye covering up for your pal. I respect that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Mar 11, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Aye covering up for your pal. I respect that.


 
Except he isn't my 'pal', we just both happen to post on the same bb.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 11, 2011)

er under the geneva convention they can be taken out and shot not being in Uniform or part of any states armed forces they are not covered.
  so possibly want to rethink that one.
  a politcal prisoner does'nt get any rights under any international law possibly less.


----------



## dylanredefined (Mar 11, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> ffs: what a circular discussion about nothing...
> There are people locked up for their political beliefs who have not been convicted of any 'crime', these people rightly or wrongly maintain that the British presence within our Isle has to be removed...
> To me they are 'political prisoners' and as such under the Geneva convention must be treated as such...
> The 'drug-dealing/gangster' smears are tired cliches as Im sure those living in the 6 counties and our Island can attest to...
> ...


 
The  Geneva convention covers prisoners of war.Not being part of a recognised state's army in time of war they are not covered by it.
I'm pretty sure they are locked up for something other than their political  views.As I'm pretty sure its not illegal to call for a united Ireland.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> According to Scott Miller's book Group A and Group B spent 20 years in political and criminal partnership with the Loyalists



What is the title of that book?


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Mar 11, 2011)

The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers' Party


----------



## manny-p (Mar 11, 2011)

cheers


----------



## Ld222 (Mar 12, 2011)

*One mans promise to himself, on solitary confinement.*


----------



## cemertyone (Mar 15, 2011)

Divisive Cotton said:


> The Lost Revolution: The Story of the Official IRA and the Workers' Party



Fuck me..the rusty guns brigade if the stickies had spent less time attacking Sein Fein and
paid attention to the needs of working class people in Ireland..then they might have had some sort 
of political mandate from which to comment on. As it is, they are a marginilised click..who`s only achievments
have been the censorship of other republican viewpoints on Irish society...`i.e. there take over of RTE
during the 70s and 80`s.....


----------



## Cobbles (Mar 15, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Restore political status now.



Why? - they're just criminals.

There's nothing special about then apart from their thuggery.


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 15, 2011)

> Dissident Republicans and a few who got their licences revoked for engaging in criminal behaviour whilst free. One of the stipulations was that if you were convicted of a crime you went back to finish off your original sentence.



A fair enough stipulation it's funny seeing all these freedom fighters turning to crime... I had myway I have them all locked up and for good. Why do you want these people freed for? .. you either ill or sick.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 15, 2011)

allybaba said:


> How can you deny this story?-
> 
> http://www.independent.ie/unsorted/features/ira-crime-godfathers-are-winning-drugs-war-131841.html


 
Here's a thing. That story has internal links embedded in it which take you to other related stories on the Indo site. The one for 'republican socialist party', alas, takes you to stories about Joe Higgins latest feat of derring-do in the struggle against the bosses. I don't think it's beyond the bounds of due dilligence to be able to recognise the differences between the SP and the IRSP. But then the Indo was never that sort of paper. So no, while I'm considerably more sceptical than most about the claims that there was never ever drug dealing by republican paramilitaries (but you guessed that) I'd be even more sceptical about an Indo story on those lines.


----------



## Idris2002 (Mar 15, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> A fair enough stipulation it's funny seeing all these freedom fighters turning to crime... I had myway I have them all locked up and for good. Why do you want these people freed for? .. you either ill or sick.


 
Because that was such a brilliant success the last time around. Silly bunny.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 15, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> A fair enough stipulation it's funny seeing all these freedom fighters turning to crime... I had myway I have them all locked up and for good. Why do you want these people freed for? .. you either ill or sick.


 
Yawn. obviously a graduate of the 'Horrid Henry School of Politics'.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 15, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Yawn. obviously a graduate of the 'Horrid Henry School of Politics'.


 
Care to restart the discussion on your gerry adams thread?


----------



## cantsin (Mar 15, 2011)

tar1984 said:


> I'm undecided.  One one hand if the offence is part of a political action then political status is fair enough.  On the other they only got let out because of the peace agreement so if they're not sticking to it then fuck em.



huh ?


----------



## treefrog (Mar 16, 2011)

Just out of interest, exactly how many people are there in jail in Ireland that are there solely for political reasons? Nobody's actually mentioned numbers or individuals currently in detention for their political beliefs on this thread....


----------



## manny-p (Mar 16, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Just out of interest, exactly how many people are there in jail in Ireland that are there solely for political reasons? Nobody's actually mentioned numbers or individuals currently in detention for their political beliefs on this thread....


 
Can anyone answer this? I agree if people are locked up for political reasons it is out of order- however trying to compare some of the republican thugs and murderers to what Bradley Manning is going through is not really a comparison worth making.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 16, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> ffs: what a circular discussion about nothing...
> There are people locked up for their political beliefs who have not been convicted of any 'crime', these people rightly or wrongly maintain that the British presence within our Isle has to be removed...
> To me they are 'political prisoners' and as such under the Geneva convention must be treated as such...
> The 'drug-dealing/gangster' smears are tired cliches as Im sure those living in the 6 counties and our Island can attest to...
> ...


 
The previous post in the part in which I referred to Bradley Manning was in reply to this.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 16, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Just out of interest, exactly how many people are there in jail in Ireland that are there solely for political reasons? Nobody's actually mentioned numbers or individuals currently in detention for their political beliefs on this thread....


 
i'd have thought political prisoners were inside less because of their beliefs and more because of the state's politics.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Mar 16, 2011)

What were they actually convicted of?


----------



## manny-p (Mar 16, 2011)

A NUMBER of prominent republicans freed under the terms of the Good Friday agreement could be returned to jail on suspicion of setting up a new terrorist group based in Co Tyrone, it has been claimed.

Reports in the Sunday Times reveal that intelligence obtained by the M15 and Crime and Security, the Garda’s intelligence agency, indicates the as yet unnamed group is planning to announce its arrival with a bombing wave.

There are fears that up to 100 members of the Provisional IRA have pledged their allegiance to the group and that hundreds of sympathisers are providing support.

Intelligence services on both sides of the border believe the group has the capability to construct large bombs and to build mortars – and is drawing on the expertise of the experienced IRA gunmen and bomb-makers.

The newspaper says the cross-border intelligence is based on information from informants, surveillance reports and listening devices.

Chair of the assembly’s justice committee Lord Maurice Morrow said the group “must be stopped before it gets going”.

The DUP MLA for Fermanagh and South Tyrone said: “If there is intelligence suggesting that these people are about to embark on a ruthless, murderous campaign then I am fully in favour of them being returned to jail.

“Members of the public have a duty to support the police in this – they should be rounded up before they get the chance to harm anyone. I hope the security forces will be allowed to do their job.”

He added: “If this intelligence is accurate then it’s very concerning. We want a pro-active approach in dealing with these people – not a reactive one. There is no sense in waiting until someone is hurt or killed before action is taken.”

Party colleague Arlene Foster said terrorist prisoners should never have been released from prison in the first place.

“Those unionist leaders who agreed to release the prisoners in 1998 should now hang their heads in shame and acknowledge that they were wrong,” she said.

She added: “The police, MI5 and security services must be praised for the way in which they have met the dissident challenge so far and all democratic parties should give them their full support. I am fully in favour of the police returning anyone in breach of their licence to jail.

“Northern Ireland is moving forward, yet a small remnant are determined to drag us back and cause instability. Whilst these small groups work below the surface the people of Northern Ireland have moved on and don’t want to go back to the ways of the past.”

At the end of last month a bomb described by police as an “anti-personnel device” designed to kill people was left outside a shop close to a police station on Belfast’s Antrim Road.

The NIO refused to comment on the claims.

http://www.newsletter.co.uk/news/local/freed_republicans_may_be_sent_back_to_prison_1_2387860


----------



## manny-p (Mar 16, 2011)

Is there any truth in that? And what is this 'new terrorist group'?


----------



## Deareg (Mar 16, 2011)

The latest in a long line of scare stories.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 17, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Care to restart the discussion on your gerry adams thread?



be my guest


----------



## manny-p (Mar 17, 2011)

LiamO said:


> be my guest


 
Cannae be arsed you win. Gerry is a fecking prophet.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 17, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Cannae be arsed you win. Gerry is a fecking prophet.


 
never wrote, never stated, never claimed, never intimated, never implied, never hinted  anything of the sort... but don't let truth interrupt your disingenuous little fantasy world


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 17, 2011)

allybaba said:


> A NUMBER of prominent republicans freed under the terms of the Good Friday agreement could be returned to jail on *suspicion* of setting up a new terrorist group based in Co Tyrone, it has been claimed.



And therin lies the nub of the issue... The conditions prisoners on REMAND are atrocious in Maghabery... 
I cant be bothered to write an essay on current issues in the 6 counties but try google.....
If people are daft enough to believe that many republicans would accept British rule they need to have a peek at Irish History...
btw: Scott Millar, employed by Murdoch for a number of years and the Daily Star comes out with an opionated book???? shock.. horror...


----------



## treefrog (Mar 18, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd have thought political prisoners were inside less because of their beliefs and more because of the state's politics.


 
You know what I mean (at least, I'm hoping you do). How many people are in prison in Ireland solely for political reasons? If I was organising a protest on this issue I think I'd be able to give some details about _who_ I was actually protesting for....


----------



## cemertyone (Mar 18, 2011)

allybaba said:


> A.
> 
> Reports in the Sunday Times reveal that intelligence obtained by the M15 and Crime and Security, the Garda’s intelligence agency, indicates the as yet unnamed group is planning to announce its arrival with a bombing wave.
> (quote)...
> ...


----------



## manny-p (Mar 18, 2011)

LiamO said:


> never wrote, never stated, never claimed, never intimated, never implied, never hinted  anything of the sort... but don't let truth interrupt your disingenuous little fantasy world


 
Sorry must have been barking up the wrong tree.


----------



## Deareg (Mar 18, 2011)

treefrog said:


> You know what I mean (at least, I'm hoping you do). How many people are in prison in Ireland solely for political reasons? If I was organising a protest on this issue I think I'd be able to give some details about _who_ I was actually protesting for....


 
Republicans are so fractured now that very few people would have the answer to hand, some Republican organisations even refuse to recognise any but themselves as Republicans so don't count prisoners from other organisations, it is my understanding that there is something approaching 100 in the north and possibly double that in the 26 counties but if someone were to come along and tell me that I am completely wrong I would not be surprised.


----------



## LiamO (Mar 18, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Sorry must have been barking up the wrong tree.



Hmmm. And yet you have full access to the thread in question... so you could have been reading, instead of barking... even though your barking is more of a yapping tbh

I haven't decided yet whether you are mischievous or malignant... not that it matters a light.


----------



## Deareg (Mar 18, 2011)

treefrog said:


> You know what I mean (at least, I'm hoping you do). How many people are in prison in Ireland solely for political reasons? If I was organising a protest on this issue I think I'd be able to give some details about _who_ I was actually protesting for....


 
Found this, not sure if it covers all prisoners or not.

http://www.irishfreedomcommittee.net/POWs/IPOWS_LIST.htm


----------



## manny-p (Mar 18, 2011)

LiamO said:


> Hmmm. And yet you have full access to the thread in question... so you could have been reading, instead of barking... even though your barking is more of a yapping tbh
> 
> I haven't decided yet whether you are mischievous or malignant... not that it matters a light.


 
I ain't a unionist if thats what you mean by malignant.


----------



## treefrog (Mar 18, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Found this, not sure if it covers all prisoners or not.
> 
> http://www.irishfreedomcommittee.net/POWs/IPOWS_LIST.htm


 
Cheers. So where would I find the details about their political detention?

FTR, I have no agenda or axe to grind here. Just didn't realise there were still political prisoners in Ireland, and the way this thread has gone it's raised a lot of questions for me


----------



## Deareg (Mar 18, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Cheers. So where would I find the details about their political detention?
> 
> FTR, I have no agenda or axe to grind here. Just didn't realise there were still political prisoners in Ireland, and the way this thread has gone it's raised a lot of questions for me



Here are a few websites that might help you, though if you are only curious about the individual prisoners then you might be better off just googling the names.

http://www.irishrepublican.net/forum/forum.php

http://rsmforum.proboards.com/index.cgi

http://32csm.info/

http://www.rsf.ie/


----------



## 8den (Mar 21, 2011)

They would be the like of Turlough McAllister, who got ten years in 2010 for trying to make pipe bombs. He got a suspended sentence in 2002 for trying to through a petrol bomb at a police station, but succeeded in setting fire to his own shoes. 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/8493275.stm



> He resigned from the party in protest at the death of 21-year-old south Armagh man Paul Quinn, who was beaten to death in County Monaghan in October 2007. Mr Quinn's family said IRA members were involved.
> 
> The defence lawyer said his client was prevailed upon by others "to allow that house to be used".
> 
> ...


----------



## treefrog (Mar 21, 2011)

So he threw a petrol bomb at a police station and got a suspended sentence.

Then he admits to making explosives for pipe bombs, and to owning a manual on how to make pipe bombs, and the equipment to make the pipe bombs. 

I don't understand why I'd be campaigning for the release of someone who was making explosives, presumably with intent to use them on targets to destroy or wound? I don't see anything in that article that suggests he's been locked up on the basis of political beliefs, as opposed to making stuff that could, you know, kill people.

I guess my point is this: you have a rally being held in Glasgow to campaign for the release of political prisoners. At no point in the OP, or most posts since then, have there been any details on who these people are, their supposed crimes, and what in particular makes them suitable for political prisoner status. 

If _I_ was organising a rally on this subject, I'd have thought those details would be critical so the public would understand the issue at a very basic level and offer support (give a human face to the issue). "March for the right for a man who makes explosives to be given special status in prison" doesn't really have the same ring to it though I guess...


----------



## treefrog (Mar 21, 2011)

How did the protest go, anyway?


----------



## fiannanahalba (Mar 21, 2011)

The POWs are in British gaol in Ireland for physically resisting the British occupation of Ireland. They have done this in a variety of ways and it is fair to say if Irish sovereignty wasnt being usurped by Britain none of these men would be in Maghaberry Gaol. The protests are designed to raise awareness to the POWs plight and their treatment at the hands of the screws and the case of their imprisonment, ie the continual occupation which it is their right and indeed duty to actively resist. 
The protest was a success with hundreds of informative leaflets given out.
There will be more protests and events to come.


----------



## 8den (Mar 21, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> The POWs are in British gaol in Ireland for physically resisting the British occupation of Ireland. They have done this in a variety of ways and it is fair to say if Irish sovereignty wasnt being usurped by Britain none of these men would be in Maghaberry Gaol. The protests are designed to raise awareness to the POWs plight and their treatment at the hands of the screws and the case of their imprisonment, ie the continual occupation which it is their right and indeed duty to actively resist.
> The protest was a success with hundreds of informative leaflets given out.
> There will be more protests and events to come.


 
I'm sorry but the one example I found, the prisoner in question, set his own shoes on fire, got off with a suspended sentence, then when caught again, his brief said



> "He instructs me that he is not and has never been a member of any illegal organisation."





> "he has been used and betrayed".



This isn't a man going to prison trying to free his country, and then demanding political status. This is a berk who managed to set himself on fire, and then ran screaming from the R-IRA (or any paramilitary organisation) at his trial. 

Would you care to enlighten us as to what other brave selfish members of Na Fianna are languishing unjustly away at her majesties pleasure?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 21, 2011)

but the evil brits locked him  for being a brave freedom fighter can't you see they demand FREEDOM!
  fact is  without the Brits there might have been a slightly bigger republic and an even smaller more insane protestant bit with an even bigger pile of corpse between them 
   in fact those loveable rouges in the UAF are even now planning car bombs in border towns if it looks like their would be a referedum on unification.


----------



## 8den (Mar 21, 2011)

likesfish said:


> but the evil brits locked him  for being a brave freedom fighter can't you see they demand FREEDOM!
> fact is  without the Brits there might have been a slightly bigger republic and an even smaller more insane protestant bit with an even bigger pile of corpse between them
> in fact those loveable rouges in the UAF are even now planning car bombs in border towns if it looks like their would be a referedum on unification.


 
No see as it was explained to us simpletons as such



> the continual occupation which it is their right and indeed duty to actively resist.



You see, he was doing his _patriotic duty_ when he set his shoes on fire, and it was his _right and duty_ when he was trying to build improvised explosives. 

Bombs like This one. 

You see throwing a improvised explosive at a Police checkpoint on a busy road at 9pm on a weekend night, where it could have injured children is the kind of brave patriotic duty that deserves special privileges in prison. 

Never  mind that this brave patriot ran a mile from dissident republican groups at his trial. He was doing his _duty_ 

Vomit......


----------



## fiannanahalba (Mar 21, 2011)

likesfish said:


> but the evil brits locked him  for being a brave freedom fighter can't you see they demand FREEDOM!
> fact is  without the Brits there might have been a slightly bigger republic and an even smaller more insane protestant bit with an even bigger pile of corpse between them
> in fact those loveable rouges in the UAF are even now planning car bombs in border towns if it looks like their would be a referedum on unification.



The most reliable point you made in this post was the bit about the *UAF *bombing border towns. Have you told MI5 etc of this exciting turn by the *UAF* away from placard waving and being shouty behind police lines.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 21, 2011)

likesfish said:


> but the evil brits locked him  for being a brave freedom fighter can't you see they demand FREEDOM!
> fact is  without the Brits there might have been a slightly bigger republic and an even smaller more insane protestant bit with an even bigger pile of corpse between them
> * in fact those loveable rouges in the UAF are even now planning car bombs in border towns if it looks like their would be a referedum on unification.*



Eh? What? Have you a link?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 21, 2011)

Sorry meant the uvf or whatever loyalist bunch of thugs are the new
Boys.  See violent stupidity is cross community success in lala land


----------



## manny-p (Mar 21, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> The most reliable point you made in this post was the bit about the *UAF *bombing border towns. Have you told MI5 etc of this exciting turn by the *UAF* away from placard waving and being shouty behind police lines.


 
Lol. Opps


----------



## 8den (Mar 21, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> The most reliable point you made in this post was the bit about the *UAF *bombing border towns. Have you told MI5 etc of this exciting turn by the *UAF* away from placard waving and being shouty behind police lines.



Sorry can you please elaborate as to what crimes these POWs are in prison for?


----------



## Dowie (Mar 21, 2011)

Sounds like a bollocks protest tbh... if you're locked up these days then chances are you deserve it. No excuses really post-good Friday agreement just die hard idiots.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Sorry can you please elaborate as to what crimes these POWs are in prison for?


 
What Republicans have always been imprisoned by the occupying force for.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> What Republicans have always been imprisoned by the occupying force for.


 
Violence, terrorism etc...

Sounds like a bunch of fucking headcases who lack the semblance of a populist mandate that the IRA had. 

Nutters. And cowards by the sounds of it. Why does a headcase like the one I referenced, who has turned his back on the R-IRA deserve special treatment? Next you'll be demanding special treatment for the Unibomber.


----------



## DotCommunist (Mar 22, 2011)

Unabomber. He was one of the anarchists lot as well- took the sane clear eyed view that 'people cannot cut my forrest down around my ears with out me going totally spare.'

Anyway, as you were.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 22, 2011)

colin duffy etc etc....


----------



## treefrog (Mar 22, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> What Republicans have always been imprisoned by the occupying force for.


 
Sorry, but that doesn't wash with me, nor would it with most people. You can't rally on something like this without providing specific cases that don't involve petrol bombers with a poor throwing arm. 

Like I said in a previous post, if I was campaigning on this issue, I would have a lot of solid information, names, dates, crimes etc. to give to people who nothing about it (like me) so that those people (like me) would be convinced of your argument and possibly join the cause. Soundbites like this persuade no-one other than those already frothing at the mouth to find something to protest about. 

Unless, you have actually no interest in preaching to anyone but the converted?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> colin duffy etc etc....


 
Thats a fascinating page. It's a great injustice. Of course it's weird it makes no mention of what Colin Duffy is currently in prison awaiting trial for. 

Murdering two soldiers who were picking up a pizza.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Thats a fascinating page. It's a great injustice. Of course it's weird it makes no mention of what Colin Duffy is currently in prison awaiting trial for.
> 
> Murdering two soldiers who were picking up a pizza.


 
In the context of the struggle killing two soldiers is as legitimate as they come. Although it's fucking idiotic and stupid in this day and age.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2011)

Murdering scum are murdering scum. Let them don the romantic guise of oppressed freedom fighter if it helps while away the decades of incarceration ahead.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Murdering scum are murdering scum. Let them don the romantic guise of oppressed freedom fighter if it helps while away the decades of incarceration ahead.


 
Steady on there Thatcher. _Crime is crime is crime_....


----------



## cemertyone (Mar 22, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Murdering scum are murdering scum. Let them don the romantic guise of oppressed freedom fighter if it helps while away the decades of incarceration ahead.



Does that equally apply to the sqadiee scum who killed a 13 year old girl called julie livingston at the end of our street
who`s only "crime" was going to the shop to get some milk for her family...just wondering like if its a two way street
with you....


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> In the context of the struggle killing two soldiers is as legitimate as they come. Although it's fucking idiotic and stupid in this day and age.


 
And yet the campaign to release him neglect to mention this "legitimate" crime. 

Funny that.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> And yet the campaign to release him neglect to mention this "legitimate" crime.
> 
> Funny that.


 
He hasn't been convicted of anything yet.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> He hasn't been convicted of anything yet.


 
Okay, but why not mention what he's being charged with then? 

Anyone charged with a double homicide, is going to be remanded in Prison before Trial.

Demanding he be released before trial without mentioning what he's been charged with is extremely disingenuous.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

cemertyone said:


> Does that equally apply to the sqadiee scum who killed a 13 year old girl called julie livingston at the end of our street
> who`s only "crime" was going to the shop to get some milk for her family...just wondering like if its a two way street
> with you....


 
neglected to mention the context big demo going on and Julie walked through the lines to get the milk and then the army turned up Plastic bullets are not designed to kill and hitting although hitting someone in the head with one will.
   their is a difference between killing a child by mistake even if it the action was reckless.
 setting out deliberatly to kill someone.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> setting out deliberatly to kill someone.


 
What like Bloody Sunday then?


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

the Soldiers who did the killing should have been charged and convicted.
  At the time although that was probably unlikely to have happened.
  That was'nt planned killing by the state that was a couple of individuals  getting some kills in.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> That was'nt planned killing by the state that was a couple of individuals  getting some kills in.


 
Bit like the dissidents eh?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> What like Bloody Sunday then?


 

Colin Duffy was what 3 when Bloody Sunday happened. 

Whats the relevance?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Colin Duffy was what 3 when Bloody Sunday happened.
> 
> Whats the relevance?


 
Read the last page again. Got fuck all to do with Colin Duffy.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Bit like the dissidents eh?


  no the dissidents claim to be a group with a cause.
  The fact that the British army did not routinely gun down civillian protestors in fact for all the talk of shoot to kill and death squads in thirty years killed 300 people.
 could have done that in an afternoon with a machine gun.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> no the dissidents claim to be a group with a cause.
> The fact that the British army did not routinely gun down civillian protestors in fact for all the talk of shoot to kill and death squads in thirty years killed 300 people.
> could have done that in an afternoon with a machine gun.


 
That makes it ok then? The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries. Make of that what you will but it doesn't sound like a well oiled machine with a few bad eggs to me.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Read the last page again. Got fuck all to do with Colin Duffy.


 
I've read this entire fucking car crash of a thread. It's a protest for prisoners in which the guy advertising the protest won't tell us who the prisoners are and what they are accused of. Colin Duffy's case is highlighted by the group organising the protest, and they're calling for his release. 

And you're the twat who brought up bloody sunday, in reference to Colin Duffy. 

Could everyone stop being so fucking obtuse. Who's this protest for? What crimes did they commit? Or allegedly commit? And who exactly is for their release/treatment as POW?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> That makes it ok then? The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries. Make of that what you will but it doesn't sound like a well oiled machine with a few bad eggs to me.


 
Source?

ETA http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I've read this entire fucking car crash of a thread. *It's a protest for prisoners in which the guy advertising the protest won't tell us who the prisoners are and what they are accused of. Colin Duffy's case is highlighted by the group organising the protest, and they're calling for his release*.
> 
> And you're the twat who brought up bloody sunday, in reference to Colin Duffy.
> 
> Could everyone stop being so fucking obtuse. Who's this protest for? What crimes did they commit? Or allegedly commit? And who exactly is for their release/treatment as POW?



Now who's being disingenuous? The protest, i'll remind you was for the following,...... 

*Irish Republican POW protest Glasgow 
Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.*

The Colin Duffy campaign is a seperate issue. Of course the campaign here would agree that he should not be assaulted in prison, but this protest is about ending beatings and returning political status NOT releasing Colin Duffy.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

http://cain.ulst.ac.uk/cgi-bin/tab2.pl

Link doesn't work just crosstab organisation summary by status summary.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I've read this entire fucking car crash of a thread. It's a protest for prisoners in which the guy advertising the protest won't tell us who the prisoners are and what they are accused of. Colin Duffy's case is highlighted by the group organising the protest, and they're calling for his release.
> 
> And you're the twat who brought up bloody sunday, in reference to Colin Duffy.
> 
> Could everyone stop being so fucking obtuse. Who's this protest for? What crimes did they commit? Or allegedly commit? And who exactly is for their release/treatment as POW?


 
So you either A: Obviously haven't read the thread or B: Can't read. I'm going for B.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Now who's being disingenuous? The protest, i'll remind you was for the following,......
> 
> *Irish Republican POW protest Glasgow
> Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.*
> ...


 
It's 8den he just wants to have a go at Republicans. Let him foam at the mouth it's very funny.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Now who's being disingenuous? The protest, i'll remind you was for the following,......
> 
> *Irish Republican POW protest Glasgow
> Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.*
> ...


 
The person organising the protest never made it clear who the protest outside the Scottish prison was for exactly

The same group is organising the protest is active in both campaigns.

I'm not being disingenuous I'm confused.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)




----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

Yeh so 187 civillians as oppossed to 163 paramilitaries. Great work lads!

ETA: You can actually add another 10 hunger strikers to that list but they still didn't kill more.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Yeh so 187 civillians as oppossed to 163 paramilitaries. Great work lads!
> 
> ETA: You can actually add another 10 hunger strikers to that list but they still didn't kill more.


 
Wow you're stupid. 

It's 728






I'll try a simpler one. 

It's 496 by the IRA. 

Seriously who taught you maths?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> The person organising the protest never made it clear who the protest outside the Scottish prison was for exactly
> 
> The same group is organising both protests is active in both campaigns.
> 
> I'm not being disingenuous I'm confused.



We know you're confused, but if you read the thread you might lesson your self-inflcited confusion........ Pretty clearly in the OP.....




fiannanahalba said:


> *Stop the beatings/Restore political status now.*Assemble outside Bairds Bar, Gallowgate, Glasgow 1pm Sat 12th March. All republicans of all orgs and none welcome. Organised by 32CSM Scotland.
> 
> They are in there for us, be out there for them.
> 
> Beir Bua.


 
The re-arranged demo was for the same thing clearly quoted in the OP. Where was the call for prisoner(s) releases?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

I said the British security forces killed more civillians than paramilities i.e they killed more civillians (innocent people) than paramilitaries (the one's they're after). I know fucking well that paramilitaries killed more civillians than the brits. Jeez who the fuck taught _you _ how to read?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

And it's funny how you left out loyalist killings when you said "it's 728". Why didn't you do the simple math and add up the 868 civillians they killed?


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

Deareg said:


> Your license is only revoked if you get involved with a illegal organisation or commit violent crimes, petty crimes and most other for that matter don't count, I know of one fella who was caught burgling a post office but as no violence or weapons were involved it did not impact on his license.


 
Its completely up to the discretion of a British secretary of state who doest even have to tell you why your license is being revoked . Effectively your a political hostage . If you express views the British government or its Stormont puppets find not to their liking then you can be banged up on a whim . Getting " involved" with an illegal organisation is an extremely elastic , catch all turn of phrase .


----------



## Deareg (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> Its completely up to the discretion of a British secretary of state who doest even have to tell you why your license is being revoked . Effectively your a political hostage . If you express views the British government or its Stormont puppets find not to their liking then you can be banged up on a whim . Getting " involved" with an illegal organisation is an extremely elastic , catch all turn of phrase .


 
Yeah, I should have made that clear, that they don't have to actually BE CAUGHT OR ACCUSED of doing anything, a coppers word is sufficient to land them back in jail.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

treefrog said:


> Sorry, but that doesn't wash with me, nor would it with most people. You can't rally on something like this without providing specific cases that don't involve petrol bombers with a poor throwing arm.
> 
> Like I said in a previous post, if I was campaigning on this issue, I would have a lot of solid information, names, dates, crimes etc. to give to people who nothing about it (like me) so that those people (like me) would be convinced of your argument and possibly join the cause. Soundbites like this persuade no-one other than those already frothing at the mouth to find something to protest about.
> 
> Unless, you have actually no interest in preaching to anyone but the converted?


 
if you had a fucking clue what you are talking about you would know that what has happened post GFA is that if prisoners names are included on lists by Prisoner welfare organisations that is then used by the British authorities as legal grounds for further prosecution of already incarcerated prisoners . Its regarded by a British diplock court as evidence a prisoner is a member of an illegal organisation , as happened to John Brady a number of years ago .


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> *I said the British security forces killed more civillians than paramilities i.e they killed more civillians (innocent people) than paramilitaries (the one's they're after).* I know fucking well that paramilitaries killed more civillians than the brits. Jeez who the fuck taught _you _ how to read?


 
I can read, (They're spelt civilians and paramilitaries FYI) and you're flat out contradicting yourself. 

Remember you said



> The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries.



Thats a clear unequivocal statement. You said clearly that you thought British Security Services had the highest death toil of civilian casualties than either paramilitary side of the troubles. 

It's clear. 

You can't count. 

You have no fucking idea of the history of the troubles.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> And it's funny how you left out loyalist killings when you said "it's 728". Why didn't you do the simple math and add up the 868 civillians they killed?


 
Again, this may have made sense in the scrambled eggs that you store inside your skull. 

But just to be clear are you asking me to add the number of civilians killed by the British Security Services, to the Number killed by Loyalist Paramilitaries? To come up with a new magical figure that vindicates, your badly idiotic statement. 



> Yeh so 187 civillians as oppossed to 163 paramilitaries



You really thought the IRA only killed 163 civilians in the entirety of the troubles? 

You are fucking dense man.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> We know you're confused, but if you read the thread you might lesson your self-inflcited confusion........ Pretty clearly in the OP.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
The OP was spectacularly vague, when asked who was he talking about he waved people the general direction of the CSM website. It's easy to see how people got confused. I never mentioned Colin Duffy. I merely remarked how odd it was that the campaign for his release didn't mention what he was in prison awaiting trial for. N_igma is the one who started with the "Remember the Alamo" stuff about Bloody Sunday.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> The OP was spectacularly vague, when asked who was he talking about he waved people the general direction of the CSM website. It's easy to see how people got confused. I never mentioned Colin Duffy. I merely remarked how odd it was that the campaign for his release didn't mention what he was in prison awaiting trial for. N_igma is the one who started with the "Remember the Alamo" stuff about Bloody Sunday.



How was it 'spectacularly' vague? It said, as i've shown you twice, exactly what it was about. 

There's been plenty of people in prison on trial for things they not only haven't committed.... As for Colin Duffy he is entitled to the same legal niceties as any other innocent prisoner is he not? There's also plenty that stinks about his continued harrassment, arrest and re-arrest. You don't have to be a coco cola or conto to see that....


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> How was it 'spectacularly' vague? It said, as i've shown you twice, exactly what it was about.



And as mentioned Fananabla, when asked about who the protest was for



> What Republicans have always been imprisoned by the occupying force for.



Dearg came out with



> Here are a few websites that might help you, though if you are only curious about the individual prisoners then you might be better off just googling the names.



AKA Pseudonym came back with



> colin duffy etc etc....


 
Getting your knickers in a twist because I wasn't sure which prisoners were in which campaign when no one is telling me which protest was for which, strikes me as you trying to make hay out of a very tenuous point.  



> There's been plenty of people in prison on trial for things they not only haven't committed.... As for Colin Duffy he is entitled to the same legal niceties as any other innocent prisoner is he not? There's also plenty that stinks about his continued harrassment, arrest and re-arrest. You don't have to be a coco cola or conto to see that....


 
Oh so *Now we are talking about Colin Duffy??*

And can you show me where he isn't being shown legal niceties of other innocent awaiting trial prisoners? 

If you're on trial accused of a political motivated premeditated double homicide. You can expect to be in prison awaiting trial. And things like to be re-arrested in the station after many major crimes


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

If they want to be Prisoners of war fine.
 but if they are prisoners of war and the war won't be over till ireland is free.
  Then Unlucky your never getting out POWS don't get trials or released under a peace treaty or the war is over

 mind you could take up vaulting or possibly try to build a glider?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> And as mentioned Fananabla, when asked about who the protest was for
> 
> 
> 
> ...



THe OP was pretty clear, the references to other websiotes was in regard to what crimes they may have committed, prompted by treeffrog I believe. Noe of which makes the clear remarks by the OP in regards to the subject of the protest.

No tenuous point, it's stated clearly in the OP, no doubt or obfuscation from the OP.

No, I raised Duffy in reply to your witteriungs about this being a campaign to have him released. 

Nowhere did I say Duffy shouldn't be in jail. Merely the continuing harrassment of his by the RUC raises numerous questions.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> THe OP was pretty clear, the references to other websiotes was in regard to what crimes they may have committed, prompted by treeffrog I believe. Noe of which makes the clear remarks by the OP in regards to the subject of the protest.
> 
> No tenuous point, it's stated clearly in the OP, no doubt or obfuscation from the OP.
> 
> No, I raised Duffy in reply to your witteriungs about this being a campaign to have him released.



No there was confusion. Both campaigns call for the release of prisoners. Colin's campaign also calls for his release. He's in Maghaberry, the same prison. And his campaign had a protest on the 12th calling for a _Protest against RUC/PSNI harassment and brutality_ 

Getting your knickers in a twist is fucking daft. 



> Nowhere did I say Duffy shouldn't be in jail. Merely the continuing harrassment of his by the RUC raises numerous questions.


 
He's accused of shooting two soldiers in cold blood....


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> You have no fucking idea of the history of the troubles.


 
Bwahahahaha! 

No sense of history of the troubles? Despite living my whole life in Northerm Ireland and being brought up inside a staunchly political family? Not to mention having an actual degree in History and Politics from Queen's university in which I was lectured on the troubles by all the leading scholars on the topic such as Richard English and Paul Bew? Yeh mate I have absolutely no fucking idea of the history of the troubles. Go away and learn how to read you absolute fucking muppet


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Bwahahahaha!
> 
> No sense of history of the troubles? Despite living my whole life in Northerm Ireland and being brought up inside a staunchly political family? Not to mention having an actual degree in History and Politics from Queen's university in which I was lectured on the troubles by all the leading scholars on the topic such as Richard English and Paul Bew? Yeh mate I have absolutely no fucking idea of the history of the troubles. Go away and learn how to read you absolute fucking muppet


 
I can read. And I would think someone with a degree in history and politics would know how to spell simple words like  "civilian" and "paramilitary". And would know that the IRA killed more civilians than the British security forces. 

Which lest we forget is what you claimed




			
				N_igma said:
			
		

> The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I can read. And I would think some with a degree would know how to spell simple words like  "civilian" and "paramilitary". And would know that the IRA killed more civilians than the British security forces.
> 
> Which lest we forget is what you claimed


 
Are you actually this dense? That statement is true, they did kill more civillians than paramilitaries. Stop digging yourself a hole, you're embarressing yourself. If I was to make the statement "The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than the paramailitaries did" then you might have an argument but you're just making a tit of yourself.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> No there was confusion. Both campaigns call for the release of prisoners. Colin's campaign also calls for his release. He's in Maghaberry, the same prison. And his campaign had a protest on the 12th calling for a _Protest against RUC/PSNI harassment and brutality_
> 
> Getting your knickers in a twist is fucking daft.
> 
> ...



The only confusion is in your head. The protests aims, all two of them, were clear in the OP. That you have trouble in realising that and then, some might think deliberately given your attitudes, conflating the protest with another campaign is your problem.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> You really thought the IRA only killed 163 civilians in the entirety of the troubles?
> 
> You are fucking dense man.


 
Again more absolute idiocy from you. The Brits killed 187 civillians, 145 republicans and 18 loyalists which is 163. Fucking hell you have some serious issues with comprehension!


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Are you actually this dense? That statement is true, they did kill more* civillians* than paramilitaries. Stop digging yourself a hole, you're *embarressing* yourself. If I was to make the statement "The British security services killed more *civillians* during the troubles than the *paramailitaries* did" then you might have an argument but you're just making a tit of yourself.


 
Really I could use a giggle. Explain this to me how does this;



> The British security services killed more *civillians* during the troubles than the *paramailitaries* did



differ from 



> The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries.



I don't understand how you can read this table (we posted the same table)






As proof the British military killed more civilians than the paramilitaries.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Again more absolute idiocy from you. The Brits killed 187 civillians, 145 republicans and 18 loyalists which is 163. Fucking hell you have some serious issues with comprehension!


 
And the Republicans Paramilitaries killed 728 civilians. 

Now do the maths. Is 728. More than 187. Or less?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> And the Republicans Paramilitaries killed 728 civilians.
> 
> Now do the maths. Is 728. More than 187. Or less?


 
Yes and I'm not talking about how many fucking civilians the Republican paramilitaries killed you numpty. This goes back to you not reading the fucking thread. Likefish made the point that the Brits had a few bad eggs who killed some civilians. I was merely pointing out that they killed more civilians (innocent people) than paramilitaries (people they should have been going after) but you just had to make it into something different. Just like what you're doing with the OP and the purpose of this protest. You read something and just make it fit into your silly view to make you be right. Well you're wrong mate, completely wrong. So do what I said a few pages ago and read the fucking thread, word for word.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> *Yes and I'm not talking about how many fucking civilians the Republican paramilitaries killed you numpty.*






> This goes back to you not reading the fucking thread. Likefish made the point that the Brits had a few bad eggs who killed some civilians. I was merely pointing out that they killed more civilians (innocent people) than paramilitaries (people they should have been going after) but you just had to make it into something different. Just like what you're doing with the OP and the purpose of this protest. You read something and just make it fit into your silly view to make you be right. Well you're wrong mate, completely wrong. So do what I said a few pages ago and read the fucking thread, word for word.



Wow....I'd wipe the spittle off your monitor. For those of us joining the debate.




			
				Nigma said:
			
		

> The British security services killed more civillians during the troubles than paramilitaries.



I posted this chart, as did you






You responded. 



> Yeh so 187 civillians as oppossed to 163 paramilitaries. Great work lads!



Now I know what you were trying to say N_igma. I would just expect someone with a degree in Politics and History would be able to phrase it more coherently,  and would be able to spell civilians and paramilitaries. 

Just as Fedayn getting his knickers in a twist about two different protests with similar goals, about prisoners in the same prison, when one protest doesn't explain who it's campaigning for.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

I don't proof read for a living so my spelling is neither here nor there frankly. I did make it coherent, do you really think I'm that stupid as to suggest the Brits killed more civilians than all the paramilitaries combined?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> I don't proof read for a living so my spelling is neither here nor there frankly. I did make it coherent, do you really think I'm that stupid as to suggest the Brits killed more civilians than all the paramilitaries combined?


 
N_igma man do you really want my opinion on how thick I think you are?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> N_igma man do you really want my opinion on how thick I think you are?


 
Yeh well I know you think I'm thick but I'm not. So there ya go ya learn something new everyday.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Yeh well I know you think I'm thick but I'm not. So there ya go ya learn something new everyday.


 
Okay thats fair enough. I was winding you up. 

I think we can both agree that someone murdering soldiers in 2009 was a fucking pointless act of violence?


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Okay thats fair enough. I was winding you up.
> 
> I think we can both agree that someone murdering soldiers in 2009 was a fucking pointless act of violence?


 
Yep.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> No there was confusion. Both campaigns call for the release of prisoners. Colin's campaign also calls for his release. He's in Maghaberry, the same prison. And his campaign had a protest on the 12th calling for a _Protest against RUC/PSNI harassment and brutality_
> 
> Getting your knickers in a twist is fucking daft.
> 
> ...


 
2 British soldiers in Ireland , another country . One they shouldnt be occupying . Colin Duffy has twice already been fitted up by the British state for offences he didnt commit . His lawyer , rose Nelson , was murdered by state agents for pointing this out in the past despite a United Nations appeal for her safety. Prior to any British soldiers being executed local politicians were demonizing him in the media and calling for his arrest . It was duly granted .


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Okay thats fair enough. I was winding you up.
> 
> I think we can both agree that someone murdering soldiers in 2009 was a fucking pointless act of violence?


 
British troops still occupying Ireland in 2009 is whats fucking pointless , and if that was murder then so was shooting them in 1919 , 800 years of crime in fact. And their job is being extremely violent , their trained killers afterall . And if someones opposed to another countrys troops occupying their country then shooting them is hardly pointless , in fact you couldnt get your point accross any clearer than that .

Obviously though you support the British regime in Ireland so therefore its unsurprising that a unionist like yourself would take that position towards pretty much anyone the British regime regards as their enemy. Colin Duffy being one such person theyve hounded for many years


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> 2 British soldiers in Ireland , another country . One they shouldnt be occupying . Colin Duffy has twice already been fitted up by the British state for offences he didnt commit . His lawyer , rose Nelson , was murdered by state agents for pointing this out in the past despite a United Nations appeal for her safety. Prior to any British soldiers being executed local politicians were demonizing him in the media and calling for his arrest . It was duly granted .



Your timeline is completely fucked up. 

For starts Rosemary Nelson was murdered a decade before the two soldiers. And the two soldiers weren't executed, they were murdered. Ten years after a peace agreement that was pass by huge majority across the island. After a epically long cease fire by all mainstream paramilitary groups. As to Colin Murphy being demonised and what I think you're implying is he was framed well that will come out his trial.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Your timeline is completely fucked up.
> 
> For starts Rosemary Nelson was murdered a decade before the two soldiers. And the two soldiers weren't executed, they were murdered. Ten years after a peace agreement that was pass by huge majority across the island. After a epically long cease fire by all mainstream paramilitary groups. As to Colin Murphy being demonised and what I think you're implying is he was framed well that will come out his trial.


 
Duffy was accussed of murders before Rosemary Nelson died but the charges were dropped.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> British troops still occupying Ireland in 2009 is whats fucking pointless , and if that was murder then so was shooting them in 1919 , 800 years of crime in fact. And their job is being extremely violent , their trained killers afterall . And if someones opposed to another countrys troops occupying their country then shooting them is hardly pointless , in fact you couldnt get your point accross any clearer than that .



No you really could. 

Do you think the murder was acceptable? Y/N

Do you think Colin Murphy carried out the murder? Y/N

Lets clear this up before we go on. 




> Obviously though you support the British regime in Ireland so therefore its unsurprising that a unionist like yourself



Wow there's a huge fucking projection. There. I can be opposed to British troops getting shot while going to get pizza, while not being wild about partition. 

I'm of the weird position that while I'd like to see a united Ireland, I'm also positive that I don't believe that violence is a acceptable way to achieve this aim. 

Weird me. 



> would take that position towards pretty much anyone the British regime regards as their enemy. Colin Duffy being one such person theyve hounded for many years


 
So hang on. You're of the position that the British troops deserved to die, but Colin Murphy was framed of the crime, but you think it wasn't a crime, so.....Um what? 

So what is your position.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Duffy was accussed of murders before Rosemary Nelson died but the charges were dropped.


 
Okay, but Casually Red makes it seem like rosemary nelson was her lawyer and was murdered while he was accused of the murder of these two soldiers...


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Your timeline is completely fucked up.
> 
> For starts Rosemary Nelson was murdered a decade before the two soldiers. And the two soldiers weren't executed, they were murdered. Ten years after a peace agreement that was pass by huge majority across the island. After a epically long cease fire by all mainstream paramilitary groups. As to Colin Murphy being demonised and what I think you're implying is he was framed well that will come out his trial.


 
for a start the mans last name is Duffy , not Murphy , so your the last person who can be talking about fuck ups . Secondly my timeline isnt fucked up at all . British stae agents murdered his solictor after she successfully defended him against a previous frame up , the second frame up at that time . If the 2 occupying troops were murdered then so were every last other British soldier in Ireland .

As I said your a unionist so its hardly surprising youve a hypocritical attitude towards thousands of foreign killers in your own country . My attitude towrds them is simple , theyve no right to be there and never have had . British guns in Ireland are completely unacceptable and any talk of peace while thousands of armed British soldiers remain is utterly fucking absurd . That in itself is an act of aggression .
But you support it so its hardly surprising your reactionary opinions of what constitues a crime or violence . If its got a union jack strapped to it its perfectly fine .


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Okay, but Casually Red makes it seem like rosemary nelson was her lawyer and was murdered while he was accused of the murder of these two soldiers...


 
no i didnt , i pointed out the state had his solictor killed while defending him against another fram up some time back . They havent killed his solicitor this time .


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> for a start the mans last name is Duffy , not Murphy , so your the last person who can be talking about fuck ups . Secondly my timeline isnt fucked up at all . British stae agents murdered his solictor after she successfully defended him against a previous frame up , the second frame up at that time . If the 2 occupying troops were murdered then so were every last other British soldier in Ireland .
> 
> As I said your a unionist so its hardly surprising youve a hypocritical attitude towards thousands of foreign killers in your own country . My attitude towrds them is simple , theyve no right to be there and never have had . British guns in Ireland are completely unacceptable and any talk of peace while thousands of armed British soldiers remain is utterly fucking absurd . That in itself is an act of aggression .
> But you support it so its hardly surprising your reactionary opinions of what constitues a crime or violence . If its got a union jack strapped to it its perfectly fine .


 
Your incoherent ramblings aside. I'm not a unionist. And it's not reactionary. 

It's pretty fucking simple. I don't think you use violence to achieve a political objective. Particularly I don't think murdering two soldiers going for pizza is going to achieve a united ireland. 

Your gibbering ranting aside heres a simple question

You seem to think that the murder of two soldiers is a acceptable act of "warfare" 

And you also seem to think Duffy (sorry not Murphy) was framed for this deed. 

So who do you think did carry out this act, and do you think they should be lauded?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I don't think you use violence to achieve a political objective.


 
Is that a principle you hold to? Is it universally applicable? Violence can never be justified in pursuit of a political agenda? Never?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Is that a principle you hold to? Is it universally applicable? Violence can never be justified in pursuit of a political agenda? Never?


 
No of course not. I'm not so dogmatic as that any rule I make must be writ in stone, and is completely unyielding. Circumstances matter a great deal. For example, using violence in Libya to overthrow Gaddaffi, is necessary. 

But if someone can give me a justifiable reason to shoot two squaddies going for pizza in NI in 2009, I'm all ears.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> No of course not. I'm not so dogmatic as that any rule I make must be writ in stone, and is completely unyielding. Circumstances matter a great deal. For example, using violence in Libya to overthrow Gaddaffi, is necessary.
> 
> But if someone can give me a justifiable reason to shoot two squaddies going for pizza in NI in 2009, I'm all ears.



So when you said *"I don't think you use violence to achieve a political objective."* you didn't actually mean it? 

There's clearly people who think it justified or i'm thinking it wouldn't have happened. You, lime myself, disagreee with them. I don't think the faux UN resolution to bomb Libya is justified, the worlds policemen and you however clearly do. I might point out that there's a rather large conundrum in your support for a bombing campaign that is way more indiscriminate than killing-however unjusitifed-2 soldiers, wouldn't you say?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> So when you said *"I don't think you use violence to achieve a political objective."* you didn't actually mean it?



I meant it for this particular instance. 

Unless you do think that murdering two off duty squaddies is acceptable.



> There's clearly people who think it justified or i'm thinking it wouldn't have happened.



Whether they do or not, it's important whether we agree or not that it is acceptable. 



> You, lime myself, disagreee with them.



Lime?



> I don't think the faux UN resolution to bomb Libya is justified, the worlds policemen and you however clearly do.



Um, where are you getting that from? Seriously Explain where you got them from?



> I might point out that there's a rather large conundrum in your support for a bombing campaign that is way more indiscriminate than killing-however unjusitifed-2 soldiers, wouldn't you say?



You do like to seize on a single point and jump upon it. 

Firstly it was the confusion between the Duffy/R-IRA protest, which I pointed out now you dropped it. 

Now you're shifting the goalposts. 

For the record I never said anything about the UN campaign I discussed the idea of



> using violence in Libya to overthrow Gaddaffi,



I could, and in fact was talking about civilians in Benghazi, engaging in violence to overthrow their dictator. 

Which is what I was talking about. 

Oh wait _Are you just deciding I was for the NATO bombing campaign_ Based on absolutely zero evidence on that fact? 

All I talked about was



> using violence in Libya to overthrow Gaddaffi



You're just jumping to conclusions aren't you?


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I meant it for this particular instance.
> 
> Unless you do think that murdering two off duty squaddies is acceptable.
> 
> ...


 
So, you support the Libyan people using violence to overthrow Gadaffi asnd not the UN bombing the place? If so then I am happy to apologise for getting it wrong. Unlike you it has to be said..
As for the Glasgow protest, no you got it wrong. I asked elsewhere re the Glasgow demo, it was for political status and an end to beatings as was made clear on the OP. It was not a call for the release of prisoners. You got it wrong and conflated 2 different protests.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

As I pointed out above , he supports all manner of highly extreme violence as long as its got a union jack attached to it . Yet again he has demonstrated that . He's a unionist hence he supports Britian in its warlike endeavours . And a British soldiers particular choice of take away food appears to him to be more relevant thn the fact thousands of them are garrisoned in someone elses country where theyve been fought for centuries . Because they eat pizza it somehow means its outrageous anyone would have a problem with thousands of British soldiers in their country .


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> So, you support the Libyan people using violence to overthrow Gadaffi asnd not the UN bombing the place?
> If so then I am happy to apologise for getting it wrong. Unlike you it has to be said..



You do. And I'm happy to clarify. You don't seem interested in clarifying your thoughts on this situation 

Do you think it was right for Duffy, or someone to murder the two soldiers? 



> As for the Glasgow protest, no you got it wrong. I asked elsewhere re the Glasgow demo, it was for political status and an end to beatings as was made clear on the OP. It was not a call for the release of prisoners. You got it wrong and conflated 2 different protests.


 
It was two different protests. Calling for rights for republican prisoners in the same prison. One protest refused to explain who it was protesting for, and for the reasons they were protested. 

I admitted my (understandable) confusion. You only seem interested in petty point scoring.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> You do. And I'm happy to clarify. You don't seem interested in clarifying your thoughts on this situation
> 
> Do you think it was right for Duffy, or someone to murder the two soldiers?



So clarify it then, you support the people fighting Gadaffi and NOT the UN backed 'no fly zone'?
No, I don't. But I also realise that whilst British soldiers are there people will take up arms. I happen to think that in the current political context it's a futile arguably counter-productive act.



> It was two different protests. Calling for rights for republican prisoners in the same prison. One protest refused to explain who it was protesting for, and for the reasons they were protested.
> 
> I admitted my (understandable) confusion. You only seem interested in petty point scoring.



The OP made it clear, you got it wrong, simple as.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> As I pointed out above , he supports all manner of highly extreme violence as long as its got a union jack attached to it . Yet again he has demonstrated that .



No...didn't do that. 



> He's a unionist hence he supports Britian in its warlike endeavours .



Um no I'm not. And I don't. 



> And a British soldiers particular choice of take away food appears to him to be more relevant thn the fact thousands of them are garrisoned in someone elses country where theyve been fought for centuries . Because they eat pizza it somehow means its outrageous anyone would have a problem with thousands of British soldiers in their country .


 
You really seem confused. 

You seem to think that Duffy didn't commit the crime he's accused of. 

You also seem to think that murder of British soldiers is acceptable. 

You don't seem willing to elaborate or confirm these points. 

In fact you just want to elaborate and pontificate on the fact that I'm not wild on the idea of people murdering people. 


You seem to think that the two soldiers deserved to die and that Duffy has been set up for their murder. 

Is that true, yes or no?

If you respond to this thread again with a diatribe against what you presume are my politics, without explaining your own position on Duffy and the murders that you are simply a coward. 

So explain yourself Casually Red or you are simply Cowardly Yellow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Unless you do think that murdering two off duty squaddies is acceptable.


of course it's acceptable, especially given the circumstances.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> So clarify it then, you support the people fighting Gadaffi and NOT the UN backed 'no fly zone'?



I have on several occasions

You seem willing to jump down my throat on what you think is my position. 

Let me ask you this

Do you think the person (whether or not is was Duffy) was right to murder the two soldiers in 2009? 

Yes or No. 

Pretty bloody simple. 



> No, I don't. But I also realise that whilst British soldiers are there people will take up arms. I happen to think that in the current political context it's a futile arguably counter-productive act.



Maybe thats really bad quote tagging by you. 

So you agree that someone gunning down soldiers is counter productive and should be dealt within the full count of the law?



> The OP made it clear, you got it wrong, simple as.


 
The OP refused to explain which prisoners were considered part of the protest, and on several occasions refused to clarify the prisoners and the crimes they were accused of. 

He didn't make it clear. 

Your hostility is out of order.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> of course it's acceptable, especially given the circumstances.


 
Pray tell, elaborate on the circumstances.


----------



## IC3D (Mar 22, 2011)

You don't call yourself the IPLO an not sell drugs really.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Pray tell, elaborate on the circumstances.


 
if you're unaware of the context at this stage, your blather above does you no credit. and if you are aware of it, you don't need me to elaborate.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I have on several occasions
> 
> You seem willing to jump down my throat on what you think is my position.
> 
> ...



In an equal society yes, but given soldiers are not even charged with murdering Aidan Mcanespie, Lee Clegg gets a short sentence for murdering a joyrider and two soldiers get their jobs back after shooting an unarmed teenager in the back and killing him i'm not naive enough to think the law is applied equally or frankly with any seriousness at all. I do think that if someone is found guilty of killing those two soldiers they will go to jail for a very long time.

As an aside, you think that the Italian riot copper who shot Carlo Giuliani should be jailed? If not for murder then at least manslaughter? 

Hostility? What hostility? Aye, it must be fucking terrifying...... Arguing with someone who is miles away and not in the slightest bit hostile.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> if you're unaware of the context at this stage, your blather above does you no credit. and if you are aware of it, you don't need me to elaborate.


 
I am aware of the circumstances in that I don't see that there are any mitigating circumstances to explain the crime. 

Bravo on your cowardice though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I am aware of the circumstances in that I don't see that there are any mitigating circumstances to explain the crime.
> 
> Bravo on your cowardice though.


 
what cowardice? you've been merrily discussing it for a while and NOW you want the context outlined for you? congratulations on your impudence.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> In an equal society yes, but given soldiers are not even charged with murdering Aidan Mcanespie, Lee Clegg gets a short sentence for murdering a joyrider and two soldiers get their jobs back after shooting an unarmed teenager in the back and killing him i'm not naive enough to think the law is applied equally or frankly with any seriousness at all. I do think that if someone is found guilty of killing those two soldiers they will go to jail for a very long time.



And these previous unrelated crimes have what to do with the price of chips. 

Plenty of men who killed soldiers and civilians walked out prison having served tiny sentences thanks to the good friday agreement. 




> As an aside, you think that the Italian riot copper who shot Carlo Giuliani should be jailed? If not for murder then at least manslaughter?
> 
> Hostility? What hostility? Aye, it must be fucking terrifying...... Arguing with someone who is miles away and not in the slightest bit hostile.


 

Its not exactly hostility it's just the fact that you're not so much as moving the goalposts, as changing the goalposts to wickets. 

You don't seem willing to discuss the murders that Colin Duffy is accused of or to discuss the implications of such a crime in Ireland in 2009. 

When the discussion  actually gets into the moral implications of your position, you try and astroturf the discussion into morality that suits your argument. 

You're a coward Fedayn. Incapable of rationalising the implications of your position.

Lets discuss the murders Colin Duffy is accused of. Lets chat about them. Before we leap to Genoa in 2001. Or Libya in 2011. Stand your ground man.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> what cowardice? you've been merrily discussing it for a while and NOW you want the context outlined for you? congratulations on your impudence.


 
Then please



> of course it's acceptable, especially given the circumstances.



Explain what about the circumstances of 2009 Ireland that makes it acceptable to murder two soldiers going for takeaway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Then please
> 
> 
> 
> Explain what about the circumstances of 2009 Ireland that makes it acceptable to murder two soldiers going for takeaway.


you mean the killing of the two british soldiers in ireland?

i'd have thought that you could work this out for yourself.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean the killing of the two british soldiers in ireland?
> 
> i'd have thought that you could work this out for yourself.


 
In 2009. In 1920 Yes. Or 1969. Or 1979.

But please explain this, not in short hand, not in some glib throw away about foreign occupiers. Explain it in the rational of the last three decades of the peace process.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> > If you respond to this thread again with a diatribe against what you presume are my politics, without explaining your own position on Duffy and the murders that you are simply a coward.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> In 2009.


 
can you change the record, it seems scratched.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> In 2009.


 
surely you should be explaining your support for ongoing imperialism in Ireland whether its 2009 or 2011 . And why you keep on highlighting the occupying forces particular choice of fast food on the night they were enaged by insurgents at the gates of their barracks in someone elses country .

The actual relevant bit . The actual reason why armed insurgents attacked their barracks . Itwasnt because they ate pizza , surely . Thats not remotely relevant yet you insist on making it central to your political position .


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> And these previous unrelated crimes have what to do with the price of chips.
> 
> Plenty of men who killed soldiers and civilians walked out prison having served tiny sentences thanks to the good friday agreement.
> 
> ...



If someone is found guilty of the murder of the two soldiers I don't think they can complain if they go to prison for a long time. It was an act that will not further the goal of a united Ireland nor win Protestant workers over to radical politics. 
Then again I have zero faith in a justice system that not only condones but defends and justifies the murder of a joyrider, exhonerates the murderers of a boy carrying a jar of coffee and someone simply walking along a country road. These things have a context you do realise that don't you? Forgive me for not placing any creedence in such a system and for not thinking they will behave in a manner in accordance with any kind of impartial justice. 

So it's not hostility, after saying 'your hostility is out of order'. Fuck sake this is pathetic frankly..... Cowardice? What cowardice? Give it a minute and you will retract that with 'it's not exactly cowardice'.  

As for jumping you went to Libya before me, or did you forget that bit?

Moral implications of my position? What are they exactly then 8den?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den would have been merrily attacking the french resistance for daring to have the occasional pop at the glorious master race during the war no doubt


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> can you change the record, it seems scratched.


 
Yeah. Fucking Coward.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Yeah. Fucking Coward.


 
Bit hostile that.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Yeah. Fucking Coward.


 
i see you concede the point.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> 8den would have been merrily attacking the french resistance for daring to have the occasional pop at the glorious master race during the war no doubt


 
No I think I've established that isn't the case. 

And I think we've established that you lack the moral fibre to deal with paradoxes your position creates.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> No I think I've established that isn't the case.
> 
> And I think we've established that you lack the moral fibre to deal with paradoxes your position creates.


 
we've already seen you concede the point. it's time for you to move on.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> If someone is found guilty of the murder of the two soldiers I don't think they can complain if they go to prison for a long time. It was an act that will not further the goal of a united Ireland nor win Protestant workers over to radical politics.



And yet Casually Red seems to think that the crime was acceptable and the Colin Duffy was being set up. 



> Then again I have zero faith in a justice system that not only condones but defends and justifies the murder of a joyrider, exhonerates the murderers of a boy carrying a jar of coffee and someone simply walking along a country road. These things have a context you do realise that don't you? Forgive me for not placing any creedence in such a system and for not thinking they will behave in a manner in accordance with any kind of impartial justice.



And yet those crimes that you mention happened over a decade before the the murder of the two soldiers. 



> So it's not hostility, after saying 'your hostility is out of order'. Fuck sake this is pathetic frankly..... Cowardice? What cowardice? Give it a minute and you will retract that with 'it's not exactly cowardice'.



Yeah it's cowardice and I'll explain why. You are unwilling to discuss the implications of murdering two soldiers in 2009 Ireland. 


> As for jumping you went to Libya before me, or did you forget that bit?



I was using that as a explain, You got the bull through the horns and ran with it. 



> Moral implications of my position? What are they exactly then 8den?


 
My implications are you are a coward

Explain to me what you think about the crime Colin Duffy is accused of.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> we've already seen you concede the point. it's time for you to move on.


 
Wow. Did it hurt when they removed your spine?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Wow. Did it hurt when they removed your spine?


 
there you go again. you lost the argument as soon as you ascended to abuse.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

Since you bring up 2009 8den do you think the killing of two soldiers in 1972 is justifiable?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Since you bring up 2009 8den do you think the killing of two soldiers in 1972 is justifiable?


 
i'll go better than that and say the killing of 18 soldiers in 1979 is justifiable.


----------



## N_igma (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'll go better than that and say the killing of 18 soldiers in 1979 is justifiable.


 
Yeh so would I.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red;11617680][QUOTE=8den said:


> I dont prsume anything about your politics ,



You suggested. No you said outright said I was I unionist. 



> nor is it a diatribe to simply point out what they are . You have made it clear you support the ongoing British occupation of Irish national territory ,



No I said I rejected violence to achieve a united Ireland. 

You have sooooooo many issues. 



> that you view it as perfectly legitimate, an act of peace and that you regard physical opposition to that as an act of evil criminality



How is shooting two men a act of peace?




> . Your sympathies obviously lie very strongly with the thousands of imported killers Britian has garrisoned in Ireland . Thats why you indulge heavily in the sentimental exercise about their particular choice of fast food on the evening they were engaged by armed Irish insurgents , as if that had any particular relevance.
> Those are Thatchers politics , Blairs politics, Roy Masons politics . They are unionist politics by definition .



Wow you have issues. 



> Its also presumably why you have spent aninordinate amount of time nit picking and chastising on a thread cocerning republican prisoners, whom you have already made perfectly clear you regard as criminals engaged in a criminal conspiracy . As Thatcher did.



No I can't understand the paradoxes of people who suggest that Duffy was wrongly accused, and that at the same time the crime he was accused of was perfectly acceptable. 



> i think its youwho needs to explain to the rest of us why on earth you believe i would ever be afraid of an anonymous poster on an internet forum living in another country, honestly .


 
Yeah you are incapable of understanding the paradox of considering that the act of murdering two men in cold blood is acceptable, yet the idea of accusing some of carrying out of these crimes is unacceptable.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> And yet Casually Red seems to think that the crime was acceptable and the Colin Duffy was being set up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Colin Duffy was set up before, it's not possible it's happening again? Do you have evidence that Duffy is guilty? Could he not possibly be innocent? You seem to be taking the opposite position to CR for the hell of it. You clearly think him guilty and believe he's rightly in jail. So fucking what if CR thinks that, he's not me you know. I suggest you have that debate with CR. 

So, many things took place many years ago, do they become insignificant in the context of what is happening? Does everything happen out of context for you? You see I can see there's a context that the killings took place in and still see how they are a backward step and still oppose such actions. 

Right, so you bring up the subject then criticise me for talking about it. Fuck sake..... 

"Unwilling to to discuss the implications of murdering 2 soldiers". Where am I unwilling? It could spark a return to violence, it could up the ante to a dangerous level that ncould see tit-for-tat. Neither of which are helpful in the current situation and neither will help to develop devent pro-working class politics. I don't want to see a return to 'the war'. I don't want to see parents burying their children or children burying their fathers, mothes, brothers sisters etc.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> Bit hostile that.....


 
Shall we wander into your abuse? I wouldn't attempt to seize the moral high ground. here.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> we've already seen you concede the point. it's time for you to move on.



Heaven forbid you'd discuss the issues on their own merit.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Shall we wander into your abuse? I wouldn't attempt to seize the moral high ground. here.


 
You're the one who was bleating about 'hostility' then later retracting it saying "Its not exactly hostility". 
Don't piss your pants eh?! You're an awfully senstive chap aren't you?!


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Heaven forbid you'd discuss the issues on their own merit.


but YOU don't discuss things on their own merit. you ascend to ad hominem insults like 






			
				8den said:
			
		

> Fucking Coward


because of your clear inability to discuss things on their own merits.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I wouldn't attempt to seize the moral high ground. here.


 
good. because you can't claim the moral high ground, here or anywhere else.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> there you go again. you lost the argument as soon as you ascended to abuse.



Wow here was I thinking it hurt when you lost your spine, but obviously you lost your balls at the same time.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> good. because you can't claim the moral high ground, here or anywhere else.


 
Yeah. I asked you some very simple questions, you declined to answer. 

You couldn't find the moral high ground with a team of sherpas.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> > If someone is found guilty of the murder of the two soldiers I don't think they can complain if they go to prison for a long time.
> 
> 
> well  they certainly can if they didnt do it in the first place
> ...


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Wow here was I thinking it hurt when you lost your spine, but obviously you lost your balls at the same time.


 
*"Your hostility is out of order."*

What a fucking disingenuous, bleating hypocritical little cunt you are. happy to dish out abuse but bleating like a naughty boy who's pissed his pants when it suits you.....


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> *"Your hostility is out of order."*
> 
> What a fucking disingenuous, bleating hypocritical little cunt you are. happy to dish out abuse but bleating like a naughty boy who's pissed his pants when it suits you.....


 
You don't seem inclined to answer my questions.

You rancid little cunt.


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

8den;11617765][QUOTE=Casually Red said:


> > You suggested. No you said outright said I was I unionist.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> You don't seem inclined to answer my questions.
> 
> You rancid little cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Yeah. I asked you some very simple questions, you declined to answer.
> 
> You couldn't find the moral high ground with a team of sherpas.


 
no, i did reply, but you didn't like my reply. please don't continue lying or it will get very tedious.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


>


 
I notice you have declined to answer my points in any real way.


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, i did reply, but you didn't like my reply. please don't continue lying or it will get very tedious.


 
Wow. You I think you're  a liar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I notice you have declined to answer my points in any real way.


 
you've been declining for a long time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> You I think you're  a liar.


 i think you're all over the place.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I notice you have declined to answer my points in any real way.


 
I did above...



Fedayn said:


> Colin Duffy was set up before, it's not possible it's happening again? Do you have evidence that Duffy is guilty? Could he not possibly be innocent? You seem to be taking the opposite position to CR for the hell of it. You clearly think him guilty and believe he's rightly in jail. So fucking what if CR thinks that, he's not me you know. I suggest you have that debate with CR.
> 
> So, many things took place many years ago, do they become insignificant in the context of what is happening? Does everything happen out of context for you? You see I can see there's a context that the killings took place in and still see how they are a backward step and still oppose such actions.
> 
> ...


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're all over the place.


 
I think I've firmly established my opinion. I think you on the other hand are a coward.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> I think [...] I think [...].


no you don't.

you can't 'establish' an opinion, because an opinion is a personal view, not a statement of fact. and from where you're sat it's impossible for you to tell whether i'm brave or not. although anyone who bandies words with you risks being called stupid for wasting their time on a lacklustre master debater.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

problem is for all the whining about occupation and imperialism majority of people who live in NI really really want to remain british murdering over a 1000 of them as only really resulted in them being even more stubborn.
 NI is a functioning democracy as is the south if you really can't bear the yoke of british rule fuck off to the south. the armed struggle was a bollocks idea in the 70s its even more of a bollocks idea now.
 3000 dead and loads maimed sorry gerry and martin can get well paid jobs so how many are going to die this time round?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> I did above...


 


> View Post
> Colin Duffy was set up before, it's not possible it's happening again? Do you have evidence that Duffy is guilty? Could he not possibly be innocent? You seem to be taking the opposite position to CR for the hell of it. You clearly think him guilty and believe he's rightly in jail. So fucking what if CR thinks that, he's not me you know. I suggest you have that debate with CR.



i don't know I awaiting his trial. 

I have no evidence that he is or isn't guilty. You have no evidence that he is or isn't. You seem to want to project his innocence or guilt and how I feel at me.  




> Right, so you bring up the subject then criticise me for talking about it. Fuck sake.....



Wow the irony it doth burn. 



> "Unwilling to to discuss the implications of murdering 2 soldiers". Where am I unwilling? It could spark a return to violence, it could up the ante to a dangerous level that ncould see tit-for-tat. Neither of which are helpful in the current situation



You do burn......


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> i don't know I awaiting his trial.
> 
> I have no evidence that he is or isn't guilty. You have no evidence that he is or isn't. You seem to want to project his innocence or guilt and how I feel at me.


 
No, I don't know if he's innocent or guilty. But what we DO know is that he has been the victim of a state set up before. As such it isn't beyond the realms of possibility the same thing is happening again.....


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Fedayn said:


> No, I don't know if he's innocent or guilty. But what we DO know is that he has been the victim of a state set up before. As such it isn't beyond the realms of possibility the same thing is happening again.....


 
Well then lets wait upon the trial then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> problem is for all the whining about occupation and imperialism majority of people who live in NI really really want to remain british murdering over a 1000 of them as only really resulted in them being even more stubborn.
> NI is a functioning democracy as is the south if you really can't bear the yoke of british rule fuck off to the south. the armed struggle was a bollocks idea in the 70s its even more of a bollocks idea now.
> 3000 dead and loads maimed sorry gerry and martin can get well paid jobs so how many are going to die this time round?


 
fuck off to the south? i bet you'd love a bit of ethnic cleansing in the six counties.


----------



## Fedayn (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Well then lets wait upon the trial then?


 
When have I suggested otherwise? Care to point it out?


----------



## 8den (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> fuck off to the south? i bet you'd love a bit of ethnic cleansing in the six counties.


 
Whoa project much?


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> problem is for all the whining about occupation and imperialism majority of people who live in NI really really want to remain british murdering over a 1000 of them as only really resulted in them being even more stubborn.
> NI is a functioning democracy as is the south if you really can't bear the yoke of british rule fuck off to the south. the armed struggle was a bollocks idea in the 70s its even more of a bollocks idea now.
> 3000 dead and loads maimed sorry gerry and martin can get well paid jobs so how many are going to die this time round?


 
your beloved little made up plastic province has never functioned with out special powers , special courts , special police , special prisons and special forces. It relies on them today every bit as much as it always has done . It has no economy and is completely propped up by artificial subventions , an invention that simply doesnt work and is always one step from complete chaos .
 Its not a fucking democracy , its a sick sectarian joke . Its the biggest bollocks idea ever concieved in this country and thats saying something . Its existence has only ever created conflict and continually fuelled it and its existence today is no different . Assholes like you though are quite happy to prolong a national agony as long as you have the privilege of kssing the queens arse when she deigns to bare it , to beat your little drum of loyalty and dream of the day the taigs all fuck off back to where they belong .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

8den said:


> Whoa project much?


8den

you're a busted flush. you've been exposed for what you are on this thread, and it's not a pretty sight. the best thing you could do for yourself right now is to go to bed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Mar 22, 2011)

Meh to the provos and the loyalists & esp their plastic supporters on both "sides"


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Meh to the provos and the loyalists & esp their plastic supporters on both "sides"


 
yes because this sort of thing's far more socially acceptable when it's not just the other side of the irish sea but on the other side of the mediterranean or - even better - in south america.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> your beloved little made up plastic province has never functioned with out special powers , special courts , special police , special prisons and special forces. It relies on them today every bit as much as it always has done . It has no economy and is completely propped up by artificial subventions , an invention that simply doesnt work and is always one step from complete chaos .
> Its not a fucking democracy , its a sick sectarian joke . Its the biggest bollocks idea ever concieved in this country and thats saying something . Its existence has only ever created conflict and continually fuelled it and its existence today is no different . Assholes like you though are quite happy to prolong a national agony as long as you have the privilege of kssing the queens arse when she deigns to bare it , to beat your little drum of loyalty and dream of the day the taigs all fuck off back to where they belong .


 
 its not beloved by me or anyone else its a damp toilet of a place filled with some really nice people and some complete muderous cunts set in some 16th centuary timewarp.
it was a fucking stupid idea but we are stuck with it. unless the natives can try to get along with out having walls between estates to stop them murdering each other.
 Some sort of outbreak of politics that isn't based on which church you don't step foot in. No fucking way are we having half a million protestants leaving NI to settle in the uk its the 21st centuary here your neighours you work it out.. I still thinking deporting the entire million and a half population to the falklands huns on east falkland taigs on west and scarping


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> yes because this sort of thing's far more socially acceptable when it's not just the other side of the irish sea but on the other side of the mediterranean or - even better - in south america.


 
see the falklands 8000 miles away be a useful staging post until faster than light travels invented


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2011)

likesfish said:


> its not beloved by me or anyone else its a damp toilet of a place filled with some really nice people and some complete muderous cunts set in some 16th centuary timewarp.


plantation of ulster famously seventeenth century.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> plantation of ulster famously seventeenth century.


 
 my mistake.
 even this bullshit demo is just an excuse to piss off the rangers types in glasgow  not that they are any better.
 the onyl people I ever met who cared if I was a catholic or protestant came from NI nobody in england gives a shit most could'nt tell the diffrence or care.


----------



## 8den (Mar 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> 8den
> 
> you're a busted flush. you've been exposed for what you are on this thread, and it's not a pretty sight. the best thing you could do for yourself right now is to go to bed.


 
Struggling to make a point pickman. Best to go with the PD attack?


----------



## Casually Red (Mar 23, 2011)

likesfish said:


> i
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ernestolynch (Mar 23, 2011)

'meh' to the westbrits and blueshirts.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 23, 2011)

Casually Red;11618093][QUOTE=likesfish said:


> i
> 
> 
> 
> ...


   THEY ARE HOME YOU FUCKWIT!
 thats the entire fucking problem 
  The british army are not going out and painting kerbstones red and white  thats the natives they really don't won't to live under Dublins rule and dublin really doesn't want them at the moment. 
 under the GFA you can have a vote about unification it would be lost at the moment.
  So attempting to bomb and kill the majority in the north to swap soverienty is a bollocks plan didn't work for 30 years don't see whats changed.


----------



## ernestolynch (Mar 23, 2011)

You'd agree with parts of Luton becoming part of an Islamic Emirate then.


----------



## likesfish (Mar 23, 2011)

people in luton want to ELECT a muslim council fine.
  think a despot might run foul of human rights law though curse europe. although watching chourady and his ilk being dragged off by the sheik of luton would defintly be worth it for the lols.
  unionists still make up the majority in the north their not going anywhere and nobody has a realistic plan on how to reach out to them gerry has admitted it needs to be done.
 unfortunatly his blood stained hands weren't ideal.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 23, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> of course it's acceptable, especially given the circumstances.


 
Do you really think killing two off duty squaddies is going to change the scenario politically? Do you think the armed struggle will reap the rewards? Won't it just  increase the heat on republican areas from the PSNI and british intelligence with more youngsters getting framed etc? Do you really think if the republican groups get a united socialist ireland that the working class will benefit? I think in reality they will still be getting fucked over. Only difference is that a tricolour will be flying over stormont and the country will be 'united'. What would be better would be if the working classes in Northern Ireland worked together and tried to reconcile their differences (tough if not impossible at the moment I know).


----------



## likesfish (Mar 23, 2011)

exactly macho bollocks with weapons is macho bollocks without support of the MAJORITY any armed struggle was on a road to nowhere.


----------



## treefrog (Mar 23, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> if you had a* fucking clue what you are talking about *you would know that what has happened post GFA is that if prisoners names are included on lists by Prisoner welfare organisations that is then used by the British authorities as legal grounds for further prosecution of already incarcerated prisoners . Its regarded by a British diplock court as evidence a prisoner is a member of an illegal organisation , as happened to John Brady a number of years ago .




 Uh, that was my point. That I didn't know. That I wanted more information. That I felt that I wasn't getting my questions answered in any kind of meaningful way. 

Surely you would want to properly inform people who had no axe to grind and had an interest in your protest, so that they may become sympathetic or at least more knowledgeable about the cause you were promoting? Asking if I have a fucking clue suggests perhaps not.


----------



## cemertyone (Mar 23, 2011)

likesfish said:


> neglected to mention the context big demo going on and Julie walked through the lines to get the milk and then the army turned up Plastic bullets are not designed to kill and hitting although hitting someone in the head with one will.
> their is a difference between killing a child by mistake even if it the action was reckless.
> setting out deliberatly to kill someone.



Im afraid to take issue with your assertion that there was "a big demo going on" there most certainly was not as i was there
when it happenend fella...not 20 feet away from me. So your factually wrong on that ( along with a lot of stuff you seem to
come out with)...and can you tell me how blowing the head of a young girl is some how "killing by mistake"...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 27, 2011)

*Statement from Republican POWs, Maghaberry jail*

March 23, 2011

We the Republican POWs currently incarcerated in Maghaberry jail, Co Antrim would like to update the general public on our struggle for political status. From the Stormont Agreement in 1998, we have endured conditions such as 23-hour and sometimes 24-hour lockup, physical assaults, degrading strip searches and the denial of our basic human rights. 
We have made attempts to tackle those problems using dialogue. We quickly discovered that the Brits had no interest in dealing with our concerns. This left us with only one option: protest.

For almost five months we endured even worse than before, which resulted in a dirty protest. Eventually with the support of our friends, family and comrades our voice was heard and an agreement was reached. This agreement on August 12, 2010 included the abolition of controlled movement through a phased basis; the induction of free association and the end of strip-searching: ie

Phase 1: No random strip-searching will take place on the way to domestic and legal visits and video link from SSU;
Phase 2: No rub-down searching internally within the Republican wing;
Phase 3: The prison will introduce a new search facility for Republican prisoners which will remove the requirement for routine strip-searching, all Republican prisoners are required to go through a ‘BOSS’ chair.

Phase 1 was to be introduced straight away with phase 2 to follow in December 2010 and finally phase 3 was to be complete in early 2011.

So far we have seen a relaxation of controlled movement with only six men allowed out on the landing at any given time instead of the previous number of three. Free association has been established with Republican prisoners allowed out from 8.30am – 8.00pm in the yard.

However this is not enough. We are now three months past the due date for Phase 2 and upcoming for Phase 3 and still no movement for an end to controlled movement or strip-searching.

Strip-searching is still ongoing with the practice of forced strip-searching and physical assaults on Republican prisoners. We have raised these matters with the facilitation group on a number of occasions over several months, our patience has run out over these matters. The BOSS chair is in place which removes the requirement for degrading strip-searching, but still the screws are forcibly strip-searching Republican POWs.

We decided to refuse to comply with these degrading strip searches any more. We will not stand by and let the screws renege on the agreement, we want this agreement introduced in full or we will be forced to take further action.

Thirty years ago this year our comrades in the H-Blocks of Long Kesh resisted such criminalisation which resulted in the deaths of ten young brave men. Many others suffered unspeakable horror in their fight for political status. We ask the public, our comrades and supporters to remember them and ensure that this will not happen again.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Mar 27, 2011)

RNU's POW department understand that 53 Year old republican prisoner Thomas Nash was twice yesterday (Friday 25) forcibly strip searched by the Maghaberry riot team having refused to comply on his way to and from Derry court for a preliminary hearing.

RNU call on the whole republican community to come out and oppose this barbaric practice, and call for the immediate implementation of the August 12th agreement! 

Related Link: http://www.republicannetwork.ie


----------



## N_igma (Mar 29, 2011)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-politics-12888059

Cunts at it again!


----------



## lopsidedbunny (Mar 29, 2011)

Won't be long before the Libyan rebels will get those people who sold the weapons of terror.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 29, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Do you really think killing two off duty squaddies is going to change the scenario politically? Do you think the armed struggle will reap the rewards? Won't it just  increase the heat on republican areas from the PSNI and british intelligence with more youngsters getting framed etc? Do you really think if the republican groups get a united socialist ireland that the working class will benefit? I think in reality they will still be getting fucked over. Only difference is that a tricolour will be flying over stormont and the country will be 'united'. What would be better would be if the working classes in Northern Ireland worked together and tried to reconcile their differences (tough if not impossible at the moment I know).


 
Are you going to reply to this Pickman's? Or is it too difficult for you to answer?


----------



## LiamO (Mar 29, 2011)

lopsidedbunny said:


> Won't be long before the Libyan rebels will get those people who sold the weapons of terror.


 
What?! They are attacking the British, french, US and Israeli govts now? That's a bit ambitious. You'd think they'd have enough on their plates with Mr Gaddafi.


----------



## cemertyone (Mar 31, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> RNU's POW department understand that 53 Year old republican prisoner Thomas Nash was twice yesterday (Friday 25) forcibly strip searched by the Maghaberry riot team having refused to comply on his way to and from Derry court for a preliminary hearing.
> 
> RNU call on the whole republican community to come out and oppose this barbaric practice, and call for the immediate implementation of the August 12th agreement!
> 
> Related Link: http://www.republicannetwork.ie



I cant understand why if this is the case that the POA have been told in no uncertain terms that
if this continues there members are going to get fucking wacked.....four or five of the fucks dead will change thier
practices...and they no it.
They might think that the nationalist communityy have signed up to the SF agenda..but a few dead POA staff
would change the reality on the ground very quickly.....why not...


----------



## likesfish (Mar 31, 2011)

hopefully encourage the fucks to start an hunger strike and just die.
 its not going to work


----------



## fiannanahalba (Mar 31, 2011)

Republican resistance inside and outside the gaol will be stepped up. The British havent really learned despite everything, so be it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

likesfish said:


> hopefully encourage the fucks to start an hunger strike and just die.
> its not going to work


 
while it would be nice to see the screws on hungerstrike, as you say - it's not going to work


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Do you really think killing two off duty squaddies is going to change the scenario politically? Do you think the armed struggle will reap the rewards? Won't it just  increase the heat on republican areas from the PSNI and british intelligence with more youngsters getting framed etc? Do you really think if the republican groups get a united socialist ireland that the working class will benefit? I think in reality they will still be getting fucked over. Only difference is that a tricolour will be flying over stormont and the country will be 'united'. What would be better would be if the working classes in Northern Ireland worked together and tried to reconcile their differences (tough if not impossible at the moment I know).


 
no, the question was 'is it acceptable?', and the answer's a short and simple 'yes'. which part of that don't you understand?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Are you going to reply to this Pickman's? Or is it too difficult for you to answer?


 
i have replied to it you daft shit.


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, the question was 'is it acceptable?', and the answer's a short and simple 'yes'. which part of that don't you understand?


 
I'm just trying to clarify which way your moral compass is pointing,


Cops killing protester in self defence? Bad. 

Murdering two soldiers in cold blood? Good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

8den said:


> I'm just trying to clarify which way your moral compass is pointing,
> 
> 
> Cops killing protester in self defence? Bad.
> ...


 
the carabinieri are not cops as we know them.

killing two members of an occupying force is generally considered not too bad.


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> the carabinieri are not cops as we know them.
> 
> killing two members of an occupying force is generally considered not too bad.


 

So killing cops in general is bad? 

And 

When the majority of the Island are at peace with the occupying force. As in with the Good Friday Agreement? 

Forgive me, I'm just trying to understand the funny little muddle here. 

At the time of the shooting the vast majority of paramilitary organisations had stood down, and working within the democratic mainframe.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i have replied to it you daft shit.


 
Your reply was daft though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

8den said:


> So killing cops in general is bad?
> 
> And
> 
> ...


 
you daft shit. no one's been talking about killing cops. you brought up (from another thread) the issue of carlo giuliani - and there were no cops involved there.

'the majority of the island are at peace with the occupying force'. you fucking what? i suppose you mean that the people living in the 26 counties are at peace with the british army. but of course they don't have the british army in the 26 counties. you're sounding like what you are, a bit dim.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Your reply was daft though.


 
i reiterated my earlier statement, your post demanded nothing more.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you daft shit. .


 
Looks like everyone is a daft shit tonight.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Looks like everyone is a daft shit tonight.


 
not everyone, just you, 8den, lletsa and bolshiebhoy


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you daft shit. no one's been talking about killing cops. you brought up (from another thread) the issue of carlo giuliani - and there were no cops involved there.



So killing RUC/PSNI officers isn't acceptable but soldiers are?



> 'the majority of the island are at peace with the occupying force'. you fucking what? i suppose you mean that the people living in the 26 counties are at peace with the british army. but of course they don't have the british army in the 26 counties. you're sounding like what you are, a bit dim.


 
No, in the entire Island. By 2009, pretty much all paramilitaries had stood down, and the majority of the Island was at peace. 

Now you can call me "daft shit" or "a bit dim". But I'm at a fucking loss as to how you can defend shooting two soldiers in 2009. But I am awaiting your explanation. In better detail.


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> not everyone, just you, 8den, lletsa and bolshiebhoy


 
Those crazed people who are at a loss and need you to explain how murdering two soldiers is acceptable in 2009.


----------



## manny-p (Mar 31, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> not everyone, just you, 8den, lletsa and bolshiebhoy


 
Pickman drew his inspirations not from a diseased imagination, but from real life.........


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 31, 2011)

8den said:


> So killing RUC/PSNI officers isn't acceptable but soldiers are?


 pls point me to where i said offing cops was not acceptable.


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

> no one's been talking about killing cops.



So you think killing PSNI officers in 2009 is acceptable?


----------



## 8den (Mar 31, 2011)

8den said:


> So killing RUC/PSNI officers isn't acceptable but soldiers are?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Now the rest of it please pickmans


----------



## 8den (Apr 1, 2011)

bump


----------



## N_igma (Apr 1, 2011)

Perhaps you would like to answer my question regarding killing two soldiers in 1972. Do you think it was justifiable then 8den?


----------



## 8den (Apr 1, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Perhaps you would like to answer my question regarding killing two soldiers in 1972. Do you think it was justifiable then 8den?


 
It all depends on the circumstances. Killing two soldiers in self defence? Killing two soldiers who's unit had recently been involved in say the bloody sunday attack? Those are all questions that come with a interesting moral question mark attack. 

Which I'm happy to address. 

Now start a fucking thread about them. 

This thread is about Irish republican prisoners  in 2011 and a protest in 2011. Are any of the men in prison today in prison over a killing from 40 years ago?

Quit moving the goalposts and lets talk about the protest this year and the crimes these men are accused of?

Or are you too fucking coward to talk about that?


----------



## N_igma (Apr 1, 2011)

8den said:


> It all depends on the circumstances. Killing two soldiers in self defence? Killing two soldiers who's unit had recently been involved in say the bloody sunday attack? Those are all questions that come with a interesting moral question mark attack.
> 
> Which I'm happy to address.
> 
> ...


 
There you go again, must be terrible to be constantly on your period.


----------



## 8den (Apr 2, 2011)

N_igma said:


> There you go again, must be terrible to be constantly on your period.


 
No doubt you're fucking delighted by this news 25 year old police officer killed in Omagh

How about you Pickman's do you applaud this vicious strike against the "oppressor"?


----------



## likesfish (Apr 2, 2011)

another glourious victory for the cause of irish freedom or if it starts looking like an own goal mutter darkly about the brits Mi5 etc etc.
 republicanism never having to take responsablity


----------



## N_igma (Apr 2, 2011)

8den said:


> No doubt you're fucking delighted by this news 25 year old police officer killed in Omagh
> 
> How about you Pickman's do you applaud this vicious strike against the "oppressor"?


 
Where the fuck do you get this absurd notion that I'm delighted by this sort of shit? If you actually bothered to read (something I know you have a serious issue with) what I've posted, I've never said I agree with the dissidents. I think they're wasting their time and it's not on at all. But then again I can see why some people choose to kill soldiers and policemen. Doesn't mean I agree with it. 

You have a real attitude problem mate. I suggest taking a chill pill or two.


----------



## 8den (Apr 2, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Where the fuck do you get this absurd notion that I'm delighted by this sort of shit? If you actually bothered to read (something I know you have a serious issue with) what I've posted, I've never said I agree with the dissidents. I think they're wasting their time and it's not on at all. But then again I can see why some people choose to kill soldiers and policemen. Doesn't mean I agree with it.
> 
> You have a real attitude problem mate. I suggest taking a chill pill or two.



Well at least you're consistently inconsistent.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 2, 2011)

8den said:


> Well at least you're consistently inconsistent.


 
Rumbled. You win


----------



## 8den (Apr 2, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Rumbled. You win


 
Seriously why give me shit about killing soldiers in 1972?


----------



## N_igma (Apr 2, 2011)

8den said:


> Seriously why give me shit about killing soldiers in 1972?


 
Cos you're the one getting their knickers in a twist over the killing of soldiers in 2009 I thought I'd ask you a question relating to it. Dude seriously chill out de fuck lol.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 3, 2011)

8den said:


> No doubt you're fucking delighted by this news 25 year old police officer killed in Omagh
> 
> How about you Pickman's do you applaud this vicious strike against the "oppressor"?


 
I thought of pickman and his shite apologist arguments when I heard about this. What is that murder gonna achieve for the working class of Ireland?


----------



## 8den (Apr 3, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I thought of pickman and his shite apologist arguments when I heard about this. What is that murder gonna achieve for the working class of Ireland?


 
Pickman's a fucking coward, he won't touch this with barge pole.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

*Bump for pickmans and the rest of the apologists*

The Mother of the Murdered PSNI Officer Ronan Kerr speaks;






> But rather than speak of her own grief, the recently widowed nurse used the moment to issue a powerful message of defiance against terrorism.
> 
> Her day was meant to be very different. Her eldest son, Cathair, an IT security specialist for a bank in Australia, was flying back to be with her.
> 
> ...



Link

The people who attempt to defend these kinds of attacks sicken me.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Bump, fiannanahalba, dylans, anyone have any thoughts on this?


----------



## manny-p (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Bump, fiannanahalba, dylans, anyone have any thoughts on this?


 
They have strangely all gone silent!


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 4, 2011)

From the Cedar Lounge site:

The following statement has been released by the ICTU. It’s important that they are providing a focus for people’s anger at Saturday’s murder.

TRADE UNIONS CALL ON ALL CITIZENS TO STAND UP FOR PEACE
The Northern Ireland Committee of the Irish Congress of Trade Unions calls on all workers and their families to show their outrage at the barbaric murder of constable Ronan Kerr in Omagh last weekend.

Please meet at Belfast City Hall, at 1pm, on Wednesday 6th April 2011

Peter Bunting, Assistant General Secretary of the ICTU, said: ““The murder of Police Officer Ronan Kerr in Omagh was an attack on a brave public servant and therefore an attack on every worker who serves the community and works towards a better future.

“The assassins targeted Constable Kerr because he was Catholic, and that makes this a sectarian murder, deliberately aimed at intimidating one section of the community.

“All citizens must stand together to show that we will not be intimidated by violence or threats from armed groups who should now publicly disband

“This public event being organised by the Trade Union Movement is open to all citizens, the vast majority of whom support the democracy we have achieved in this region. We all depend upon the maintenance of peace, democracy and justice.

“We urge all people who can attend the short event at Belfast City Hall at 1pm on Wednesday 6th April to do so.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Those crazed people who are at a loss and need you to explain how murdering two soldiers is acceptable in 2009.


 
ffs i suggest you start reading the fucking thread.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Pickman's a fucking coward, he won't touch this with barge pole.


 
you're a shitfer with all the nous of a dead woodlouse and all the appeal too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> No doubt you're fucking delighted by this news 25 year old police officer killed in Omagh
> 
> How about you Pickman's do you applaud this vicious strike against the "oppressor"?


 
no, it's not the fucking theatre is it? i'm not fussed. i was more amused by the texas cop killed by a cow:



> Texas deputy dies after cow attack
> Officer Down: Deputy Sheriff Robert Britton - [Smith County Sheriff's Office, Texas]
> 
> 
> ...



it's disappointing but only to be expected these day to see martin mcguinness calling for people to become touts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

to be honest it would have been better if they'd got an inspector or other high ranking officer. but you have to make do with what's available i suppose.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 4, 2011)

Irish men and women should not join the forces of the crown. Nor should Welsh or Scots.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> Irish men and women should not join the forces of the crown. Nor should Welsh or Scots.


 
nor should english people either.


----------



## ernestolynch (Apr 4, 2011)

True, Saxons should not serve Norman law.


----------



## Fuchs66 (Apr 4, 2011)

ernestolynch said:


> True, Saxons should not serve Norman law.


 
Define Saxon person and/or culture in modern day UK please.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

Fuchs66 said:


> Define Saxon person and/or culture in modern day UK please.


a good starting point would be descendants of the inhabitants of the heptarchy; those who didn't come over in 1066, being already here.


----------



## N_igma (Apr 4, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> The assassins targeted Constable Kerr because he was Catholic, and that makes this a sectarian murder, deliberately aimed at intimidating one section of the community.


 
Most Catholics know better than to join the police anyway. I've never understood a Catholic joining the RUC/PSNI. Different name - Same aim.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're a shitfer with all the nous of a dead woodlouse and all the appeal too.


 
What a eloquent rebuttal well thought out and nuanced. 

You're loathsome intellectual coward. With bankrupt ideals and ill conceived idiotic notions with the pretence of a political philosophy. 

And a cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> What a eloquent rebuttal well thought out a nuanced.
> 
> You're loathsome intellectual coward. With bankrupt ideals and ill conceived idiotic notions with the pretence of a political philosophy.
> 
> And a cunt.


i'd rather be all of that than you. as would most other people, i'll think you'll find.

e2a: if that's the best *you* can come out with, you might as well fuck off now. you've already lost the argument. and from the sounds of yer post the plot's already halfway out the door.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Most Catholics know better than to join the police anyway. I've never understood a Catholic joining the RUC/PSNI. Different name - Same aim.


 
yeh. like changing marathon to snickers - the psni's still full of nuts


----------



## kenny g (Apr 4, 2011)

I can't see how for the life of me a strong argument can be made at the moment for having killed him. You might not approve of his job, but taking his life?? And if anyone thinks it is a moral act, would they approve of doing the same to a mainland copper? if not, why not? The situation is hardly the same as in the 80's.


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## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'd rather be all of that than you. as would most other people, i'll think you'll find.
> 
> e2a: if that's the best *you* can come out with, you might as well fuck off now. you've already lost the argument. and from the sounds of yer post the plot's already halfway out the door.


 
No see Pickman's I haven't lost the argument. You've not *made any argument* to justify the murder of this man. 

You've just engaged in abuse and snide comments and haven't come out with anything of any kind of coherent point. 

So Plus Cá Change...


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> No see Pickman's I haven't lost the argument. You've not *made any argument* to justify the murder of this man.
> 
> You've just engaged in abuse and snide comments and haven't come out with anything of any kind of coherent point.
> 
> So Plus Cá Change...


which part of 'i'm not fussed' don't you understand? i don't give a flying fuck he's dead. why is this so fucking difficult for you to grasp? why should i trot out a fucking argument just for your fucking benefit?


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> which part of 'i'm not fussed' don't you understand? i don't give a flying fuck he's dead. is this so fucking difficult for you to grasp? why should i trot out a fucking argument just for your fucking benefit?


 
But do you think his killing was justified? Did it accomplish anything? Was it acceptable? 

Or are you just a completely heartless bastard, who's posting on a thread to mark your indifference to the death of a decent man?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den

you seem rather exercised about this. i on the other hand don't care about this death. it's not as though it's going to make anything worse than it is already for the irish working class, is it? on the positive side, it's put a smile on my face on an otherwise dull monday, so it's not all bad. but it's not all that important, is it?


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## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

and you can take your faux outrage and ram it up your jaxi


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> and you can take your faux outrage and ram it up your jaxi


 
Not really faux outrage, I _really think you are a loathsome excuse for a human being._


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> 8den
> 
> on the positive side, it's put a smile on my face on an otherwise dull monday, so it's not all bad. but it's not all that important, is it?


 
Why did it "put a smile on your face"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Not really faux outrage, I _really think you are a loathsome excuse for a human being._


 
no you don't. you've never had an original thought in your life and you're not likely to start now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Why did it "put a smile on your face"?


 
dead cops so often do.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no you don't. you've never had an original thought in your life and you're not likely to start now.


 
Wow. You're telling me what I'm thinking now? 

Psychic Carabinieri, now you're a mind reader. 

Tell me do you get messages from Bobby Sands telling you how fucking cool you are? 

And do the nurses wipe your dribble, or change your diapers as well?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Wow. You're telling me what I'm thinking now?
> 
> Psychic Carabinieri, now you're a mind reader.
> 
> ...


 
you're the only person who imagined the psychic carabinieri. no, i don't deal in necromancy. and no, i don't (unfortunately) have a gang of nurses pandering to my every desire. but back to your manufactured outrage about this charred corpse.

oh - and you're trying to think of a way to get one over on me.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

*taps watch*


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> you're the only person who imagined the psychic carabinieri. no, i don't deal in necromancy. and no, i don't (unfortunately) have a gang of nurses pandering to my every desire. but back to your manufactured outrage about this charred corpse.
> 
> oh - and you're trying to think of a way to get one over on me.


 
Ah so it's all in your imagination. Much like the idea that there is any kind of popular support for this kind mindless vicious violence. 

Oh and I _ really think someone who is pleased by this violence is a complete asshole_


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## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> *taps watch*


 
eating my tea.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Ah so it's all in your imagination. Much like the idea that there is any kind of popular support for this kind mindless vicious violence.
> 
> Oh and I _ really think someone who is pleased by this violence is a complete asshole_


 
i didn't know you were a septic.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i didn't know you were a septic.


 
Do you have a point here Pickmans?


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Do you have a point here Pickmans?


 
i did not realise you were american. (septic tank - yank) over here we say 'arsehole'.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i did not realise you were american. (septic tank - yank) over here we say 'arsehole'.


 
I'm going to take this new tangent as a massive "No".


----------



## N_igma (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i did not realise you were american. (septic tank - yank) over here we say 'arsehole'.


 
Kawabunga dude!


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Ah so it's all in your imagination. Much like the idea that there is any kind of popular support for this kind mindless vicious violence.
> 
> Oh and I _ really think someone who is pleased by this violence is a complete asshole_


good for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> I'm going to take this new tangent as a massive "No".


 
take it as you will; and shove your manufactured outrage up your arse.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> take it as you will; and shove your manufactured outrage up your arse.


 
I find it fascinating that you seem to think someone getting offended by your attitude to this kind of crime is pretending.

It's a staggering degree of pompous self righteousness.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> I find it fascinating that you seem to think someone getting offended by your attitude to this kind of crime is making this up.


no, anyone who was really outraged about this would be making some interesting points. you're just jogging along posting sub-mail wank. jog on, 8den, jog on


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> no, anyone who was really outraged about this would be making some interesting points. you're just jogging along posting sub-mail wank. jog on, 8den, jog on



I found his mother's remarks more eloquent and brave than anything I could add. 

A post you happily ignored.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> I found his mother's remarks more eloquent and brave than anything I could add.
> 
> A post you happily ignored.


 
i'm glad you admit to being inarticulate, and i've yet to see any indication of your courageousness.


----------



## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm glad you admit to being inarticulate, and i've yet to see any indication of your courageousness.


 
Um excuse me? 


Care to actually address her comments


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 4, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> From the Cedar Lounge site:
> 
> The following statement has been released by the ICTU. It’s important that they are providing a focus for people’s anger at Saturday’s murder.
> 
> ...


 
they tried this same shite after that weekend when the british troops and the british policeman got bumped off . Fell embarssingly on its arse then , more people turned  out to see Rhydian . And Bunting is talking out his hole . This latest british policeman was executed for being a british policeman . I dont see what his religious background has to do with it . If the republicans wanted to kill people for being catholics then why not just shoot a pub up . Irelands full of catholics for fucks sake , not hard to find one at all .
Buntngs fullfilling the tame trades union role of professional confusion monger on behalf of the occupation forces .


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 4, 2011)

8den said:


> Um excuse me?
> 
> 
> Care to actually address her comments




8den

dead cop is dead cop. and your post (quoted) is hardly evidence of eloquence, is it? "um excuse me": fucking pisspoor

let's make it easy for you to understand. a cop upholds the existence of the state. i do not agree with the british state being in the six counties. yer man was sworn to uphold crown rule. therefore his death is, in my view, no great loss. your unswerving defence of the british state shows you to be a crawling lickspittle.


----------



## IC3D (Apr 4, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> they tried this same shite after that weekend when the british troops and the british policeman got bumped off . Fell embarssingly on its arse then , more people turned  out to see Rhydian . And Bunting is talking out his hole . *This latest british policeman was executed for being a british policeman . I dont see what his religious background has to do with it* . If the republicans wanted to kill people for being catholics then why not just shoot a pub up . Irelands full of catholics for fucks sake , not hard to find one at all .
> Buntngs fullfilling the tame trades union role of professional confusion monger on behalf of the occupation forces .


Casually deluded?


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 4, 2011)

IC3D said:


> Casually deluded?


 
are you going to seriously try and make the case republican insurgents are out to kill catholics for being catholics ? Thats whats fucking delusional .


----------



## IC3D (Apr 4, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> are you going to seriously try and make the case republican insurgents are out to kill catholics for being catholics ? Thats whats fucking delusional .


 
Its as obvious as you're Ma's disappointment look at any insurgency in the world and the primary targets are collaborators with the regime.


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## IC3D (Apr 4, 2011)

DP


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## 8den (Apr 4, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> your unswerving defence of the british state shows you to be a crawling lickspittle.


 
You are just a awful excuse for a person.

Were exactly have I "unswervingly defended  the British state"?

It's almost as if you trot this stuff out without engaging your brain. Probably for the best that withered organ seems to be on it's last legs.


----------



## manny-p (Apr 5, 2011)

8den said:


> You are just a awful excuse for a person.
> 
> Were exactly have I "unswervingly defended  the British state"?
> 
> It's almost as if you trot this stuff out without engaging your brain. Probably for the best that withered organ seems to be on it's last legs.


 
Don't waste your time on the apologists, these type of people will scorn at catholic and protestants getting along or working together to better their working conditions. The sad think is that they actually think a united Ireland will actually change anything for the working class, when in fact it won't do fuck all just perhaps a change of leadership at the top and a change of flag.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Apr 5, 2011)

Most active Republicans are working towards a socialist republic.


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## krtek a houby (Apr 5, 2011)

Another glorious moment in the struggle, eh?


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## manny-p (Apr 5, 2011)

fiannanahalba said:


> Most active Republicans are working towards a socialist republic.


 
Aye state socialists.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 5, 2011)

anyhows kinda back on topic.. a cop got whacked.....
and this has what to do with the inhumane condititions in British n Free State Gaols???


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 5, 2011)

It was an excuse for the lunatic fringe to stir things up for the struggle  Massive fail as everyone thinks they are a bunch of cunts.


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## N_igma (Apr 5, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> It was an excuse for the lunatic fringe to stir things up for the struggle  Massive fail as everyone thinks they are a bunch of cunts.


 
Ah I see now how that relates to the conditions of prisoners in jails!


----------



## 8den (Apr 5, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> anyhows kinda back on topic.. a cop got whacked.....
> and this has what to do with the inhumane condititions in British n Free State Gaols???


 
We're trying to figure out the crimes committed by these people, suffering these conditions. 

And what are the inhumane conditions?


----------



## Fuchs66 (Apr 6, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> a good starting point would be descendants of the inhabitants of the heptarchy; those who didn't come over in 1066, being already here.


 
and how much interbreeding with the Norman invaders would be acceptable?


----------



## Casually Red (Apr 6, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Don't waste your time on the apologists, these type of people will scorn at catholic and protestants getting along or working together to better their working conditions. The sad think is that they actually think a united Ireland will actually change anything for the working class, when in fact it won't do fuck all just perhaps a change of leadership at the top and a change of flag.


 
what type of idiot calls for people to come together one minute but to maintain a divisive borde and instituionalised sectarianism the next r . Supports colonialism on one hand and spouts socialism the next second . While supporting British police into the bargain .


> Aye state socialists.



that type of idiot


----------



## manny-p (Apr 6, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> what type of idiot calls for people to come together one minute but to maintain a divisive borde and instituionalised sectarianism the next r . Supports colonialism on one hand and spouts socialism the next second . While supporting British police into the bargain .
> 
> 
> that type of idiot



What the fuck are you talking about? Do you have special educational needs? You are completely distorting what I said to fit your own agenda. When did I say I supported the British police or any police force for that matter? You are a right wee sinister bastard.


----------



## krtek a houby (Apr 6, 2011)

allybaba said:


> You are completely distorting what I said to fit your own agenda.



It's what they do


----------



## dylans (Apr 7, 2011)

8den said:


> Bump, fiannanahalba, dylans, anyone have any thoughts on this?


 
Yeah fwiw. My thoughts on this. I support revolutionary violence. I am not a pacifist. I believe an oppressed and occupied people have a moral right to resist occupation in whatever way they see best, as such I support the right of Irish republicans to use armed struggle to bring an end to the sectarian state that is the 6 counties. 

That said, the political legitimacy of armed struggle comes not from its politics, whether I agree with this or that strategy or political goall. but from it's mass base. The question is whether it arises from and is rooted in the community from which it operates. Does it have significant support from the community it claims to represent. If it does, it has political legitimacy and will prove very difficult to defeat. If it doesn't, it lacks legitimacy and will probably be defeated. Thus the PIRA were able to fight a sophisticated and highly effective urban guerrilla war for decades without defeat, whereas self proclaimed revolutionary groups that lacked support such as the RAF were defeated relatively easily. The former had legitimate community support, the latter didn't.

So the question then is not whether I approve or disapprove of this particular cop getting whacked. The question is whether the present dissident campaign enjoys any significant degree of community support. If it does then it has legitimacy. If it doesn't then it is not legitimate.  It seems to me that the republican community in Ireland do not support a continuation of the armed struggle, at least at the moment. As such, violent armed struggle at the moment does not have the legitimacy that PIRAs campaign did. Therefore it is acting against the wishes of the community it claims to represent and is not therefore legitimate.


----------



## Dan U (Apr 7, 2011)

thats got to be the longest winded way of saying 'no' ever

i get why though


----------



## cemertyone (Apr 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> So the question then is not whether I approve or disapprove of this particular cop getting whacked. The question is whether the present dissident campaign enjoys any significant degree of community support. If it does then it has legitimacy. If it doesn't then it is not legitimate.  It seems to me that the republican community in Ireland do not support a continuation of the armed struggle, at least at the moment. As such, violent armed struggle at the moment does not have the legitimacy that PIRAs campaign did. Therefore it is acting against the wishes of the community it claims to represent and is not therefore legitimate.



I think that pretty much sums things up fella (above)...i`m from West Belfast and all the people i`ve been speaking to 
think this killing is totally counter-productive...We have got to get Catholics into every institution of the state
so that we can destroy and influenece it from within to our advandtage...
Its going be a long process..but like the idea of the "long-war" it will play its self out to our favour in the long run..
2 generations..3..or 4..it dont matter..we will be patient....


----------



## dylans (Apr 7, 2011)

Dan U said:


> thats got to be the longest winded way of saying 'no' ever
> 
> i get why though


 
Are you kidding. That's one of the shortest posts I have ever made.


----------



## 8den (Apr 7, 2011)

dylans said:


> Are you kidding. That's one of the shortest posts I have ever made.


 
I liked it, unliked Pickman's crap it was honest.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (May 9, 2011)

Colin Duffy
Republican prisoners in Maghaberry resume protest action......


eta: Posted 6 hours ago on the Non-Conforming Republican Prisoners. 

Apologize for the late updates, problems with site sorted out now.

POWs on protest have started to make phone calls home. They have each been allocated a 5 min slot. They are all in good spirits and have confirmed that they are now on a separate landing from the POWs not on protest


----------



## N_igma (May 9, 2011)

Got a link there mate?


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## AKA pseudonym (Jun 12, 2011)

,





> Sunday 5th June, seen up to 400 people gathered at the gates of Maghaberry to show the POWs on protest support and to demand the implementation of the August Agreement.  Despite the horrendous weather conditions these republicans came together to show Maghaberry that we will not stand back as they abuse our POWs.
> Mandy Duffy addressed those gathered and on behalf of the friends and family group thanked them for their attendance.  Pol MacAdaim sang the national anthem before the main speaker newly elected independent republican councilor for Newry and Mourne, Davy Hyland, addressed the crowd.


----------



## N_igma (Jun 12, 2011)

Great stuff lad! My da sings Back Home in Derry every night when he comes back from the pub!


----------



## manny-p (Jun 13, 2011)

N_igma said:


> Great stuff lad! My da sings Back Home in Derry every night when he comes back from the pub!


----------



## LiamO (Jun 13, 2011)

why the facepalm ally?


----------



## manny-p (Jun 13, 2011)

LiamO said:


> why the facepalm ally?


 
I don't like nationalism.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jun 13, 2011)

seems there is major trouble brewing at the mo @ Maghaberry....

BTW: Is there any chance of changing the thread title so we can update the ongoing situation with the POWs


----------



## 8den (Jun 13, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I don't like nationalism.


 
Patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel.....Samuel Johnson.


----------



## dylans (Jun 13, 2011)

allybaba said:


> I don't like nationalism.



then you should denounce the Egyptian democratic uprising and the fight for Muslim, Copt unity.Because the slogan "we are all Egyptians" is a national democratic slogan. You should denounce the Palestinian struggle against the occupation because the fight for Palestinian rights is a national democratic fight. You should have denounced the struggle against Apartheid because the fight for black majority rule was a fight for national self determination. 

You should have denounced the European resistance to the Nazis,  the Vietmanese struggle for national unification, the Syrian uprising, the Indian fight for Inedependance, in fact every single anti colonial struggle ever. Because they are all nationalist in character. That is how absurd your statement above is. Nationalism can indeed be sectarian and divisive but it can also be inclusive and democratic. 

It is perfectly reasonable to point out that nationalism alone does not go far enough and cannot bring real independence. You can point out that there are still poor people in South Africa or India but it would be offensively absurd to claim that it is not a good thing that Apartheid has ended or that British colonial domination of India ended.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 14, 2011)

dylans you keep claiming anti apartheid struggle as nationalist when infact it was a civil rights struggle within the polity of South Africa, the apartheid regime actually sought to encourage various independent nationalisms in order to shore up it's hegemony. It of course had elements of nationalist discourse just as the civil rights movement in the US had black nationalist threads but fundamentally it was a struggle for rights within a given polity and not a desire to form a new one.


----------



## rorymac (Jun 14, 2011)

Polity .. hegemony .. apartheid .. regime .. discourse .. egghead  blah blah 
Sort it out  !


----------



## petee (Jun 14, 2011)

dylans said:


> denounce ... denounce ... have denounced ... have denounced


just because a poster doesn't like nationalism doesn't mean s/he has to denounce individual struggles. the egyptian revolt, e.g., had some, but not too much, of a proletarian character and the end result appears to be the replacement of one regime with another of roughly the same ilk. some others of the struggles you name achieved excellent things, but some are mirages, in particular


> the Vietmanese struggle for national unification


about which i won't go on because i've blown one gasket today already and haven't the energy to do it again.

also, what revol said.


----------



## rorymac (Jun 14, 2011)

What did revol say ?
He's too young to be so choc a bloc with philosophy books and ridiculous levels of knowledge .. he's all over the shop and floundering on the basics of rational thinking plus communication skills. I hope he already has a missus cos I've seen many a genius snatch defeat from the jaws of victory when it comes to pulling even yer average doris. 
Polity and hegemony are all very well and good if you're the minister for foreign affairs or Camus or summink I suppose ! It aint worth a wank if you get in a row in Nettos though imo


----------



## dylans (Jun 14, 2011)

revol68 said:


> dylans you keep claiming anti apartheid struggle as nationalist when infact it was a civil rights struggle within the polity of South Africa, the apartheid regime actually sought to encourage various independent nationalisms in order to shore up it's hegemony. It of course had elements of nationalist discourse just as the civil rights movement in the US had black nationalist threads but fundamentally it was a struggle for rights within a given polity and not a desire to form a new one.



It was a struggle against the oppression of a group based on their national characteristics. ie the colour of their skin. Apartheid said black citizens of that nation were not entitled to full citizenship and citizenship was only extended to those defined racially ie the white minority. For this reason the struggle for civil rights was a national democratic struggle and a struggle to extend the concept of citizenship to the black majority. The main opposition movement was nationalist movement, the ANC, it's in the name.


----------



## dylans (Jun 14, 2011)

petee said:


> just because a poster doesn't like nationalism doesn't mean s/he has to denounce individual struggles. the egyptian revolt, e.g., had some, but not too much, of a proletarian character and the end result appears to be the replacement of one regime with another of roughly the same ilk. some others of the struggles you name achieved excellent things, but some are mirages, in particular
> 
> about which i won't go on because i've blown one gasket today already and haven't the energy to do it again.
> 
> also, what revol said.


 
On those terms I don't like nationalism either. I recognise that cross class national liberation cannot truly bring national liberation. in other words it doesn't go far enough and, as in South Africa, does little to liberate the poor from poverty and exploitation. However, that doesn't mean we should ignore the democratic character of some conceptions of nationalism or the progressive nature of some national liberation struggles. The poor are still poor in South Africa but the fall of Apartheid was still a huge democratic gain. The poor are still poor in India but liberation from British imperialism is still a great historical event. I recognise that nationalism isn't a single entity to be reduced to such simplicity as "i don't like nationalism".

 Nationalism is a very amorphous concept that can be progressive or reactionary depending on ideology. For example the claim that Egyptian Copts aren't Egyptian, is a statement of reactionary divisive religious nationalism that defines citizenship based on religion. In this case the idea that Egyptian equals Muslim. By contrast those who rushed to stand with Copts following church attacks were presenting an inclusive secular nationalism that said Copts and Muslims share Egyptian identity and rejected sectarian definitions of nation.Likewise the constitutional nationalism of Nehru in India was a democratic vision that sought to build a secular concept of Indian identity and nationhood above religious and cultural difference. "You are Hindu, Muslim, Christian, Jain but you are all Indian" is a democratic inclusive concept of nation. 

"I don't like nationalism" also ignores something very important and that is that progressive, inclusive forms of nationalism are often formed and asserted in opposition to reactionary divisive nationalism. "British Muslims are British" is a statement of inclusive democratic secular nationalism in opposition to the divisive racism of the the EDL who attempt to define nation along religious or ethnic/cultural terms.


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## Random (Jun 14, 2011)

dylans said:


> "I don't like nationalism" also ignores something very important and that is that progressive, inclusive forms of nationalism are often formed and asserted in opposition to reactionary divisive nationalism. "British Muslims are British" is a statement of inclusive democratic secular nationalism in opposition to the divisive racism of the the EDL who attempt to define nation along religious or ethnic/cultural terms.


 
I don't like nationalism. And I don't like the fact that nationalism is often fought with nationalism. It all takes us further away from the real class war.


----------



## dylans (Jun 14, 2011)

I started a thread on the question of nationalism in the theory section a while ago in which I offer a definition of nationalism. If anyone is interested, you can read it here. 
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/threads/342627-Nationalism


----------



## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

dylans said:


> then you should denounce the Egyptian democratic uprising and the fight for Muslim, Copt unity.Because the slogan "we are all Egyptians" is a national democratic slogan. You should denounce the Palestinian struggle against the occupation because the fight for Palestinian rights is a national democratic fight. You should have denounced the struggle against Apartheid because the fight for black majority rule was a fight for national self determination.
> 
> You should have denounced the European resistance to the Nazis,  the Vietmanese struggle for national unification, the Syrian uprising, the Indian fight for Inedependance, in fact every single anti colonial struggle ever. Because they are all nationalist in character. That is how absurd your statement above is. Nationalism can indeed be sectarian and divisive but it can also be inclusive and democratic.
> 
> It is perfectly reasonable to point out that nationalism alone does not go far enough and cannot bring real independence. You can point out that there are still poor people in South Africa or India but it would be offensively absurd to claim that it is not a good thing that Apartheid has ended or that British colonial domination of India ended.


 
dont forget the Cubans ,, Venezuelans , Bolivians and their struggle for national sovereignty either .


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## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

Random said:


> I don't like nationalism. And I don't like the fact that nationalism is often fought with nationalism. It all takes us further away from the real class war.


 
no it just means your theories are unweildy and inapplicable to the real world and need revising . Personally i dont like dogmatism .

a favourite quote of mine by Lenin on the 1916 uprising in Dublin ,rubbishing  those socialists such as Karl Radek who'd denounced it as a " nationalist putsch"



> The views of the opponents of self-determination lead to the conclusion that the vitality of small nations oppressed by imperialism has already been sapped, that they cannot play any role against imperialism, that support of their purely national aspirations will lead to nothing, etc. The imperialist war of 1914–16 has provided facts which refute such conclusions.
> 
> The war proved to be an epoch of crisis for the West-European nations, and for imperialism as a whole. Every crisis discards the conventionalities, tears away the outer wrappings, sweeps away the obsolete and reveals the underlying springs and forces. What has it revealed from the standpoint of the movement of oppressed nations? In the colonies there have been a number of attempts at rebellion, which the oppressor nations naturally did all they could to hide by means of a military censorship ....
> 
> ...




that was pretty scathing by any standards .


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## LiamO (Jun 14, 2011)

incredible that Lenin wrote that especially for revol, so many years before revol was actually  born...

... expect some wanky denunciation of Lenin (based mainly on what others did in his name) and maybe a poem from a prominent philosopher in reply.


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## revol68 (Jun 14, 2011)

dylans said:


> It was a struggle against the oppression of a group based on their national characteristics. ie the colour of their skin. Apartheid said black citizens of that nation were not entitled to full citizenship and citizenship was only extended to those defined racially ie the white minority. For this reason the struggle for civil rights was a national democratic struggle and a struggle to extend the concept of citizenship to the black majority. The main opposition movement was nationalist movement, the ANC, it's in the name.


 
Black is a national characteristic is it now? Funny because there were many different "nations" within South Africa's black population. Like I said the nationalism of the ANC is more akin to that present in the Civil Rights movements in the US, it was a plea for black unity across ethnic lines in order to win full rights within an existing polity, similar to the Civil Rights movement in Northern Ireland that whilst no doubt having nationalist elements was fundamentally about seeking full civil rights within the UK and not the same as the Provo's campaign which sought a united Ireland.

Your problem is that you have a simplistic one dimensional view of the world, it's good versus bad for you, the oppressed versus the oppresser, you are blind the many fissures and divisions within all these struggles you wank yourself off about and imagine you are heroically supporting cause you post about supporting them on the internet. You miss the various class divisions within such movements. You have no class analysis, you are fundamentally a clown.


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## revol68 (Jun 14, 2011)

LiamO said:


> incredible that Lenin wrote that especially for revol, so many years before revol was actually  born...
> 
> ... expect some wanky denunciation of Lenin (based mainly on what others did in his name) and maybe a poem from a prominent philosopher in reply.


 
Quoting Lenin to me, woah...

The architect of retarded revolutionary defeatism, lol.


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## Random (Jun 14, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> no it just means your theories are unweildy and inapplicable to the real world and need revising . Personally i dont like dogmatism.


 You mean you like nationalism. And you like it even when the 'real world' has rejected it, as in the Irish nationalist struggle.


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## petee (Jun 14, 2011)

rorymac said:


> What did revol say ?


he said that the nationalist movements dylans listed were reformist, and even facilitated recuperation, showing that nationalism is not the way, ultimately, to genuine social or political reconstruction.


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## kropotkin (Jun 14, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> no it just means your theories are unweildy and inapplicable to the real world and need revising . Personally i dont like dogmatism .
> 
> a favourite quote of mine by Lenin on the 1916 uprising in Dublin ,rubbishing  those socialists such as Karl Radek who'd denounced it as a " nationalist putsch"
> 
> ...


 

That is an argument that it is wrong to call the Irish rebellion a putsch.
Has anyone here put that argument forward? I have only read people saying that nationalism doesn't further class interests of workers, but co-opts broader struggles against oppression, redirecting their energy to substitute one ruling elite with another.


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## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

Random said:


> You mean you like nationalism. And you like it even when the 'real world' has rejected it, as in the Irish nationalist struggle.



as things stand the only progressive left nations in the world are avowedly nationalist vis a vis defending their national sovereignty against imperialism from whatever quarter . At the beginning of the 21st century they provide the only real hope for socialism to advance among the people of the non imperialist societies .
All of them , just like Ireland , are post colonial nations . Not a single one to my knowlege has ever in the history of humankind been run along the lines of whatever anarchist purity such dogmatism demands , nor has any society for that matter. If we want to look at real rejection lets look at anarchist theory over the past 150 years and counting of revolutionary and social turmoil in Ireland . What impact has it made ?
 "Orangise" even argue its fundamentally wrong to admit theres imperialism in Ireland , much less challenge it . Clinging furiusly to ones ideological virginity as an excuenotto challnge imperialism in ones own backyard is a fruitless concept , a complete waste of everyones time . Ultimately the only favour it does is to imperialism itself .


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## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

kropotkin said:


> That is an argument that it is wrong to call the Irish rebellion a putsch.
> Has anyone here put that argument forward?.



come on now , its an argument that goes much further than that . We can actually read you know .



> I have only read people saying that nationalism doesn't further class interests of workers, but co-opts broader struggles against oppression, redirecting their energy to substitute one ruling elite with another



then you didnt read what Lenin said .


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## Casually Red (Jun 14, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Quoting Lenin to me, woah...
> 
> The architect of retarded revolutionary defeatism, lol.




no match for the architect of " Orangises" cutting edge revolutionary platform .


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## revol68 (Jun 14, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> as things stand the only progressive left nations in the world are avowedly nationalist vis a vis defending their national sovereignty against imperialism from whatever quarter . At the beginning of the 21st century they provide the only real hope for socialism to advance among the people of the non imperialist societies .
> All of them , just like Ireland , are post colonial nations . Not a single one to my knowlege has ever in the history of humankind been run along the lines of whatever anarchist purity such dogmatism demands , nor has any society for that matter. If we want to look at real rejection lets look at anarchist theory over the past 150 years and counting of revolutionary and social turmoil in Ireland . What impact has it made ?
> "Orangise" even argue its fundamentally wrong to admit theres imperialism in Ireland , much less challenge it . Clinging furiusly to ones ideological virginity as an excuenotto challnge imperialism in ones own backyard is a fruitless concept , a complete waste of everyones time . Ultimately the only favour it does is to imperialism itself .


 
Which nations are these then? 

No doubt you suck the cock of Chavez and Iran, cunt.


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## revol68 (Jun 14, 2011)

Casually Red said:


> no match for the architect of " Orangises" cutting edge revolutionary platform .


 
nah Lenin got his arse handed to him many moons before that, was by some infantile chaps.


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## manny-p (Jun 14, 2011)

revol68 said:


> No doubt you suck the cock of Chavez and Iran, cunt.


 
You have a way with words


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## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2011)

8den said:


> Patriotism the last refuge of a scoundrel.....Samuel Johnson.


 context pls


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## 8den (Jun 15, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> context pls


 
Samuel was taking about chest beating false patriots. Most fanatical republicans will call you a "west brit" or worse for having the termerity to be Irish but to think these "POWs" are murdering scum.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jun 15, 2011)

anyhows.. although it hasnt hit mainstream... things are getting freaky? wanna ask why instead of petty pointscoring?


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## manny-p (Jun 15, 2011)

AKA pseudonym said:


> anyhows.. although it hasnt hit mainstream... things are getting freaky? wanna ask why instead of petty pointscoring?


 
Whats going on at the prison?


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## krtek a houby (Jun 15, 2011)

8den said:


> Samuel was taking about chest beating false patriots. Most fanatical republicans will call you a "west brit" or worse for having the termerity to be Irish but to think these "POWs" are murdering scum.


 
Indeed, the odd thing being that the majority of Irish people distance themselves from said murderers; the most vocal fanatics are often of Irish descent and live in other countries. Go figure. I used to think the NORAID crowd and other faux uberpatriots were bad enough but evidently not


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