# Finsbury Park- Blackstock Road raids.



## Melinda (Mar 27, 2008)

Bloody hell, just seen this on the BBC London news.

Six hundred coppers in riot gear to raid an *entire* street looking for crims? The Road was closed off- no one (or buses) in or out. 

Police are reported to have seized more than "350 stolen items including 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods, 20 sat-navs and 47 fake passports and driving licences." Source BBC London site.

In addition an un-named mobile phone company apparently reported that 50% of all stolen mobile phones end up Finsbury Park!

Sounds like it was proper Passport to Pimlico stuff! It is slightly scruffy but is it any more so than any number of places? Is it bad enough to justify a battallion of police?


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## gaijingirl (Mar 27, 2008)

Blimey.. I really like that street.. all the Turkish cafes and stuff... whoda thunk it?


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## Prince Rhyus (Mar 27, 2008)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7317060.stm


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## Melinda (Mar 27, 2008)

Its so intimidating!

Any one seen Louloubelle today?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2008)

Prince Rhyus said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7317060.stm


 
Yeah, I saw it on the news and thought it was a tad extreme


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Mar 27, 2008)

Melinda said:


> In addition an un-named mobile phone company apparently reported that 50% of all stolen mobile phones end up Finsbury Park!


 

so where do muggers offload the other 50%?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Mar 27, 2008)

Melinda said:


> In addition an un-named mobile phone company apparently reported that 50% of all stolen mobile phones end up Finsbury Park!



Do they just chuck them onto some huge ever-growing pile of them or something?


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## pk (Mar 27, 2008)

Coldharbour Lane next, to catch those crack dealers with any luck.


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## Melinda (Mar 27, 2008)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> Do they just chuck them onto some huge ever-growing pile of them or something?


They they must! Because the damn things arent supposed to work once you've reported them stolen!



However on Radio4 a coupla days ago I heard about a woman who had her Sidekick phone stolen, she called her own phone and spoke to the thief who refused to give it back. 

Unluckily for the thief, Sidekick phones back up everything including all the new photos and video taken by the thief of her family and friends. 

From the thief's roaming, her Myspace page and her name were revealed.

The woman's mate laid out the whole story including the photos on his blog. 


> Some readers also began visiting Sasha's MySpace page and bombarding her and her friends with e-mail messages. Others found her street address in Corona and drove by her family's apartment building, taking videos or shouting out "thief" in front of her neighbors.



After much shaming, the thief was arrested and the phone and the phone returned!

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/21/nyregion/21sidekick.html


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## quimcunx (Mar 27, 2008)

Ooh.  I lived there briefly. No one ever offered me a mobile phone. .


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## Sunray (Mar 28, 2008)

I cant see why they are so valuable to steal any more?  Once the IMEI number has been barred from the network, its going to be a right pain in the arse to get it functional again.  Generally involving some cost.

Suppose there might be some dedicated people who can reinstate it and offer 50 quid.  Hard to keep that quiet.


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## Dan U (Mar 28, 2008)

I now understand why i saw SO many meat wagon's going down Upper Street yesterday.

I thought it was to do with the Emirates summit thing, as i saw Gordon Brown going the same way a bit earlier.

They have certainly come away with a load of nicked gear, 600 seems a tad excessive, a strong PR message but i can't lose too much sleep about all that lot being recovered and the miscreants banged up.


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## blossie33 (Mar 28, 2008)

Just found out about this today, I used to live just off Blackstock Road and I walk past the end of it every morning. I wondered why there was a traffic problem in Finsbury Park last night when I was waiting for a bus.

Not only that but I live just near where the stabbing in Stamford Hill was yesterday


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## pk (Mar 28, 2008)

Melinda said:


> They they must! Because the damn things arent supposed to work once you've reported them stolen!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



LOL thats classic - one for the pwned thread in General methinks!


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## Giles (Mar 28, 2008)

Sunray said:


> I cant see why they are so valuable to steal any more?  Once the IMEI number has been barred from the network, its going to be a right pain in the arse to get it functional again.  Generally involving some cost.
> 
> Suppose there might be some dedicated people who can reinstate it and offer 50 quid.  Hard to keep that quiet.




Well, there ARE people who have the software etc to change the IMEI number. They made it illegal to have this kit, or offer this service, only a few years ago. But I am sure its still possible. 

Then there is export - although the UK operators agreed to co-operate to make sure that stolen phones couldn't easily be re-used on other UK networks, I don't know how worldwide this is.

Finally, many phones are nicked as part of a general bag-snatch, mugging etc. If someone pulls a knife on you and says empty your pockets, he will take your wallet, ipod and take the phone anyway, even if it IS worthless to him.

Giles..


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## Badger Kitten (Mar 29, 2008)

Great news about the raids. There's a 100 yard stretch of Blackstock Rd where it meets Seven Sisters Rd, that had become deeply intimidating, gangsters, gangs, thieves and street harassers operating with impunity. It had been completely taken over by criminals, and it was a frightening place to walk, especially at night, especially for women. I live just off the street, and when I went to look the next day at which 'businesses' were closed or had been raided, I was not in the least surprised. They were the ones outside wheich I had been hissed at, intimidated abused and sometimes groped and jostled by arrogant racist youths.

The Turkish shopkeepers I am friendly with on Blackstock Rd were absolutely thrilled as well. I like living where I live, I love the shops selling baklava, breads,spit-roast chickens, fresh ground coffee, fantastic shish kebabs in flatbread and pide, piles of fruit and veg  - I am friendly with lots of the shopkeepers because I buy all my food there, daily, and don't use supermarkets at all. To see the road being taken over by skanky gangsters was tragic. Well done the cops. Message sent and they knew exactly who they were going to arrest.

Now we might get our neighbourhood back.


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## WWWeed (Mar 29, 2008)

Sunray said:


> I cant see why they are so valuable to steal any more?  Once the IMEI number has been barred from the network, its going to be a right pain in the arse to get it functional again.  Generally involving some cost.
> 
> Suppose there might be some dedicated people who can reinstate it and offer 50 quid.  Hard to keep that quiet.


some?!? there are loads of people who can do it! The reason why mobile phone theft is still huge is because it is so easy to get the IMEI changed!

Stolen phones are worth less money, but they are certainly not worthless!

If the phone company's and the phone manufactures pulled their fingers out they could solve the problem overnight and cut street robbery by at least half! but its just not in there interests.........


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## salem (Mar 29, 2008)

WWWeed said:


> some?!? there are loads of people who can do it! The reason why mobile phone theft is still huge is because it is so easy to get the IMEI changed!
> 
> Stolen phones are worth less money, but they are certainly not worthless!
> 
> If the phone company's and the phone manufactures pulled their fingers out they could solve the problem overnight and cut street robbery by at least half! but its just not in there interests.........



Yeah that just about sums it up. It's not all that hard to do at all and any kind of carrer criminal or gang can have it done easily. Anything which makes it harder has to be a good thing though.

I'm not so sure how they could improve much on the current system, I mean you're always going to be able to flash the chip or update the firmware or whatever.


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## salem (Mar 29, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Great news about the raids. There's a 100 yard stretch of Blackstock Rd where it meets Seven Sisters Rd, that had become deeply intimidating, gangsters, gangs, thieves and street harassers operating with impunity. It had been completely taken over by criminals, and it was a frightening place to walk, especially at night, especially for women. I live just off the street, and when I went to look the next day at which 'businesses' were closed or had been raided, I was not in the least surprised. They were the ones outside wheich I had been hissed at, intimidated abused and sometimes groped and jostled by arrogant racist youths.
> 
> The Turkish shopkeepers I am friendly with on Blackstock Rd were absolutely thrilled as well. I like living where I live, I love the shops selling baklava, breads,spit-roast chickens, fresh ground coffee, fantastic shish kebabs in flatbread and pide, piles of fruit and veg  - I am friendly with lots of the shopkeepers because I buy all my food there, daily, and don't use supermarkets at all. To see the road being taken over by skanky gangsters was tragic. Well done the cops. Message sent and they knew exactly who they were going to arrest.
> 
> Now we might get our neighbourhood back.



That's a really interesting side of the story. Allthough not too far from me, Blackstock Road doesn't really come up on my radar much and I didn't realise that such a problem had developed there.

It would be odd if these raids became a regular occurance whenever an area goes bad though and I'd be interested to know if the area remains 'cleaned up' in the following months.

I think it's certaintly worth trying and I've no doubt that this was as much a convenient training mission for new officers as anything.


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## Badger Kitten (Mar 29, 2008)

Just had a long chat with the coppers outside the library. They have been trying to work on this area for a year, installing CCTV 10 months ago, talking to all the local businesses about who the trouble makers were, loads of intelligence - they knew exactly who they were after.

Went to the halal butchers, (there are several but I go to two), had a chat with them, they were cool about it because the harassing youths outside are bad for business. 

 Went to the Turkish greengrocers, everyone in there was talking about it, they said they could have told the police exactly who to nick - same story, harassing gangs blocking the pavement bad for business, especially for their female customers who would often come in complaining of being harassed. ( That includes me - they're one of the shops I know has a baseball bat under the counter)

Some people in the shop querying why so many coppers but others saying they needed to send a strong message.

It wasn't just about phones - phones, satnav, laptops are also currency for money laundering or stolen goods used in drug transactions. It's heroin. And cocaine.People trafficking, protection rackets,  and funding extremism. Massive credit card skimming operations.

These are mid-level gangsters; they got the Mr Bigs as well, as the harassing youths on the street are the thieves and couriers and footsoldiers. Most of them are Algerians.

There's dispersal orders served on all the dodgy caffs and internet shops and shops where the gangs used to hang out blocking the pavement. They can only stand outside on their own now. If there's more than one, they get moved on and can't return for 24 hours; if they do, they get arrested.

That, more than anything is going to make a massive difference to the street.
The 100 yards at the Finsbury Park end was a criminal fiefdom where these people acted like the rules didn't apply. I have had 6 instances of verbal and physical harassment in the last 6 months. Most women have. Mugging, handbag and phone theft reported -  several a week. Fights with broken bottles. Stabbings and slashings. It's been totally out of control for the last 2 -3 years. And they were getting bolder and bolder. Day time harassment , not just night. Physical pushing and grabbing, not just abuse. Blocking the pavement 20 at a time, making women with pushchairs walk in the road to get past. Totally shit - and all concentrated in one area 

Now the police are monitoring it all the time with CCTV and officers out and visible. They've resourced it properly - 

Today people were going up to the cops and actually thanking them. That's unheard of in Hackney 

I am massively relieved.


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## Badger Kitten (Mar 29, 2008)

Shopping for the ingredients for tea took an hour because everyone was gossiping about it . Feels like a community again. Yay, we got our street back


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## durruti02 (Apr 3, 2008)

while i know about the harassment .. i was a candi for a couple of years and all the female students complained .. but since when did the police put so much resources on for something like this for that and a few mobiles??? .. can't help but feel there is somethig more here .. a fishing excercise for islamists?? or a practice major crackdown?? .. sorry i am just suspicious


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## dylanredefined (Apr 3, 2008)

You send a handfull of cops it might kick off .Send loads and loads it wont 
glad to here cops actually doing something worthwhile .


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## marty21 (Apr 3, 2008)

i've been there loads of times and never noticed anything


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## Giles (Apr 3, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> while i know about the harassment .. i was a candi for a couple of years and all the female students complained .. but since when did the police put so much resources on for something like this for that and a few mobiles??? .. can't help but feel there is somethig more here .. a fishing excercise for islamists?? or a practice major crackdown?? .. sorry i am just suspicious



I think that the point was not so much that each individual crime or criminal was that "serious", but that collectively this street had become an area where "anything went". 

A place where dodgy people came to trade nicked stuff, drugs, whatever, and where those people felt increasingly confident to behave exactly as they pleased.

They felt safe there, as if it was "their" place.

I think the police wanted to not only have enough people to arrest potentially hundreds of people and carry out a lot of searches, but to have enough overwhelming force that a riot would not happen, and possibly to send a firm message to everyone there involved in bad shit that it was "game over".

Giles..


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## smokedout (Apr 3, 2008)

sorry bk but that wasnt my experience of living there at all

seen a bit of dodginess go down around there, finsburys park always been like that but on the whole found it pretty chilled

regularly had coffee outside some of the cafs on that stretch of road, used the internet cafs loadsa times and never once had any aggro

and i had my kid in hs buggy at the time, never got anything but utmost respect from the kids who hung out there


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## marty21 (Apr 3, 2008)

i worked nearby for about a year, a few years ago, never noticed anything amiss, tbh, i heard about stuff going on, but nothing happened to me


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## sal64lon (Apr 6, 2008)

as an  algerian I worked and lived in Finsbury park for over 15 years, I and members of my has always support the police action to make the area safe and tackle criminality, but the way the operation mist was conducted it has killed the community business in the area? Much business has been affected, and there is questions need to be answered how we can revive the business and improve the area without any negative effect. Our community has the right to have a safe and respected place to gather, the police has to consult with community leader in such big operation!


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## Louloubelle (Apr 7, 2008)

I regularly visit the area and my experience is similar to BK's.

I've been followed by some crazy guy who threatened me with sexual assault (apparently I was an English whore) in exactly the stretch of Blackstock road where the raids took place. 

When in that part of Finsbury Park I always wear trainers and never heels, dresses or anything even remotely low cut or showing cleavage, just because I want to avoid the kind of problems that BK described.

I've also seen the young Algerian men fighting each other, loads of times, sometimes with very serious consequences. 

Several times young Algerian men have approached me in an apparently friendly way and addressed me in French.  While I speak holiday French I'm not so stupid as to understand what was going on and my haughty response that "I don't speak French", accompanied with a sneer to indicate that I am insulted by the assumption, usually seems to satisfy them and they move on to harass someone else.  

I think it's long overdue that he cops needed to do something and the problem is a significant one that seems to have been getting worse and worse  over time

Vsal64lon

an interesting first post and welcome to the boards
I'm just wondering what you think the police should have done given the extent of the problem?


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

Blokes who say they never experienced  any problems - well no, you wouldn't have - because _you're blokes_. You wouldn't have noticed it. They harassed _women on their own_, not men. They fought with each other. 

If I walked down the street with my husband I was fine. I said in my post that I had 6 instances of verbal and sometimes physical harassment in 6 months. I walk that stretch of the road twice a day, every day. It was getting worse. For women.

And £200,000k of heroin was nicked as well as cocaine. It wasn't just hooky phones.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

sal64lon said:


> as an  algerian I worked and lived in Finsbury park for over 15 years, I and members of my has always support the police action to make the area safe and tackle criminality, but the way the operation mist was conducted it has killed the community business in the area? Much business has been affected, and there is questions need to be answered how we can revive the business and improve the area without any negative effect. Our community has the right to have a safe and respected place to gather, the police has to consult with community leader in such big operation!



I've found it much easier to shop there since this happened. I do all my shopping at the local shops and all the shopkeepers know me. I reckon business will pick up. The halal shop at the end has a big sign in the window saying ''one community- successful business- prosperous borough'' and I'm all for that.

I think once people see that the the hassling has gone, business will get better - I love living in the area and the shopping is great - all the food shops are brilliant and the cafe culture is nice too - there are some cafes that were men only but most of them are fine and I enjoy going to have coffee on my own or with mates.


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## blossie33 (Apr 7, 2008)

It was never my experience of the area either, I always felt quite safe, but it has been nearly eight years since I lived round there so things probably changed.

I still pass the area every day and have been to the college/ library on odd occasions not long ago and no one has pestered me in any way but maybe that is an indication of advancing years 
Or perhaps I look 'ardcore


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## sally_sally (Apr 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Great news about the raids. There's a 100 yard stretch of Blackstock Rd where it meets Seven Sisters Rd, that had become deeply intimidating, gangsters, gangs, thieves and street harassers operating with impunity. It had been completely taken over by criminals, and it was a frightening place to walk, especially at night, especially for women. I live just off the street, and when I went to look the next day at which 'businesses' were closed or had been raided, I was not in the least surprised. They were the ones outside wheich I had been hissed at, intimidated abused and sometimes groped and jostled by arrogant racist youths.
> 
> The Turkish shopkeepers I am friendly with on Blackstock Rd were absolutely thrilled as well. I like living where I live, I love the shops selling baklava, breads,spit-roast chickens, fresh ground coffee, fantastic shish kebabs in flatbread and pide, piles of fruit and veg  - I am friendly with lots of the shopkeepers because I buy all my food there, daily, and don't use supermarkets at all. To see the road being taken over by skanky gangsters was tragic. Well done the cops. Message sent and they knew exactly who they were going to arrest.
> 
> Now we might get our neighbourhood back.



Hi Badger Kitten, I have had exactly the same treatment. Lately I had stopped visiting a friend who lives down Ambler Road, just off Blackstock Road.

I was spat on, pinched and called a white slut. All I was wearing was jeans a tee-shirt. I hope they dont come back. I walked down the street last friday with my friend and the place seemed deserted, there was a mobile police station van and quite a  few police about.

Sal


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## durruti02 (Apr 7, 2008)

smokedout said:


> sorry bk but that wasnt my experience of living there at all
> 
> seen a bit of dodginess go down around there, finsburys park always been like that but on the whole found it pretty chilled
> 
> ...



my experiance too .. though as i said i know a lot of women who did not like the vibe


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## durruti02 (Apr 7, 2008)

the question remains .. since when did the police/state spend soo much money on dealing with men harassing women? ( i am not YET convinced it was such a high crime area) .. will be camden market next if it was for that!!


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

It's women who've had the hassle IME. Not men. Not  men and women together. Women walking on their own. Unveiled ones.

Sorry to hear of your experiences Sal. Sadly, you are not the only woman who has said it. See the woman describing it on the BBC news clip.

I'm still pleased that it is so quiet now and hope that business picks up. The weather has been shit so I guess summer and the warmer weather will be the kicker - or not.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

durruti02 said:


> the question remains .. since when did the police/state spend soo much money on dealing with men harassing women? ( i am not YET convinced it was such a high crime area) .. will be camden market next if it was for that!!



It wasn't that, it was organised crime. *Stolen goods, heroin, cocaine *.

eta

And forged documents and the sale thereof.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

> Was Blackstock raid heavy-handed?
> 
> A week on, police face backlash as small businesses hit out over massive police crackdown
> 
> ...



Source


the trouble was, the criminals were hanging around outside and inside the cafes.  I like the shops and cafes. I buy all my food & everything else I need like cleaning stuff and gardening stuff from the shops. But there were some people who were using some of the the cafes  to conduct criminal transactions, and they spoiled it for everyone - including the local businesses.

 I hope it gets better. I'll carry on shopping and having my coffee there. I'm still intending to buy in the area because I really love living here. I'm putting my flat on the market and trying to get somewhere slightly bigger but I have no intention of moving away.


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## catrina (Apr 7, 2008)

I had my phone stolen from my hand three years ago not far from there. Well done, coppers. Why anyone would have sympathy for thieves being done is beyond me.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

Some background
]www.algeria.com/forums/open-board-forum-libre/19368-finsbury-park.html


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

> April 4, 2008 -- Borough Commander Bob Carr, who met business owners and residents yesterday (Thursday), has responded to criticisms made of the Blackstock Road operation. He said: “We knew exactly who we were looking for and know what was going on in these premises – buying and selling stolen goods, drugs, forged passports – we have evidence. We were searching for 52 specific people and on the day we arrested 36 of them. We’ve heard some of the stories that are coming out but I believe the vast majority of those officers were totally professional. I’m fully confident we did it right. We’ve got evidence of criminality going on in each of those 19 premises. I’ve been surprised at how supportive the community has been generally. We see this as the beginnning of something good. There’s a real opportunity for the people left to make their business better. This isn’t aimed at the Algerian community.”



Reading the Algerian forum, people were moaning for years about how the criminality affected businesses.

 (www) algeria.com/forums/open-board-forum-libre/19368-finsbury-park.html

I still think it is a good thing and business will pick up after a dip.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

coppers website


> Since July 2007 a multi-agency operation has been ongoing in Blackstock Road and will continue into the summer. The Safer Islington Partnership (SIP) is conducting the operation to reassure the public and to reduce crime and anti-social behaviour.
> 
> Partners include Islington Council, London Fire Brigade, Environmental Health and the Immigration Service. Each month sees the different agencies working together to reduce crime and anti-social behaviour in support of the longer-term project led by FinFuture.
> 
> ...


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

It was dodgy as far back as 2003 ( and before)


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## tarannau (Apr 7, 2008)

To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (snigger) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.

I'd like to be proved wrong, but I've seen the police pull the same shit far too often in Brixton. Far too many good people get caught up in such actions and treated like shit ime, leading to very little ongoing support.


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## lighterthief (Apr 7, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> Today people were going up to the cops and actually thanking them. That's unheard of in Hackney


I didn't even realise that area _was_ Hackney.


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## blossie33 (Apr 7, 2008)

lighterthief said:


> I didn't even realise that area _was_ Hackney.



Yes, that side of that section of Seven Sisters Road is just in Hackney borough.


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## Giles (Apr 7, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (snigger) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.



What is this "community consent"? 

If a significant chunk of the "community" are generally wronguns who have to some extent turned a small area into a general meeting point for crooks and troublemakers, why expect the police to seek "consent"? Are the drug dealers, muggers, sellers and buyers of nicked stuff supposed to consent to being arrested first, then?

How could the police give any kind of warning of what they had planned without ruining the surprise necessary to catch large numbers of people with stolen shit, drugs, knives, guns, false documents etc?

I am not saying that some innocents were not caught up in this, but things had obviously been allowed to degenerate so that all sorts of bad stuff was centred on this area.

Giles..


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## tarannau (Apr 7, 2008)

To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.

If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's little hope for you. You've already started waffling on about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

It *wasn't *indiscriminate, they knew exactly where and who they were going to for as a result of several months surveillance. They went in, in huge numbers, to 19 premises, nicked a few dozen people who were all on a list, raided premises and came out with £££ of stolen goods and forged documents,and were out within an hour.

If you look at the Algeria forum thread which I posted twice, or the 2003 Telegraph story you will see a) it had been going on for ages and b) it was the local businesses and residents and community representatives who were asking for it to be cleaned up.


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## tarannau (Apr 7, 2008)

You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'

Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism. 

I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a willy-waving show of force to show the curtain-twitchers supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.


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## Giles (Apr 7, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.
> 
> If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's little hope for you. You've already started waffling on about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.



I can see that it will upset some people. But by the sounds of things there WAS a lot of crime and criminals using this small area as a hang-out, meeting point and underground trading post for all sorts of stuff.

And I didn't "waffle on" about anything, I SAID it. Disagree with what I say, but no need for insulting language. I did not describe your comments as "waffling on" about anything. And please don't even "half expect" to put words in my mouth that I did not even say.....

It seems to me that the police DID plan this fairly well and succeeded in catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things.

If the people concerned did not "consent" to be arrested, well, tough. I am sure that the rest of the people living there did not "consent" to their neighbourhood being taken over by criminals either.

Giles..


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 7, 2008)

tarannau said:


> You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'
> 
> Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism.
> 
> I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a willy-waving show of force to show the curtain-twitchers supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.




I *live there*, on a side road to Blackstock Rd - the Little Algeria end -  and without going into massive detail about my exact address on a public BB,  I walk about there every single day at least twice. I talk to the shop keepers every day when I go and buy bread in one shop, meat in one of three halal butchers, fruit and veg in another shop and the paper & cigs in yet another shop. I have spoken to the shop keepers who all know me because I do my shopping there, all of it. I don;t go to supermarkets 

They are upset at people thinking they were anything to do with the criminal gangs and anxious that it will affect business, hence the banners. Some of them are moaning about it, but most of them are fine because all the criminality was bad for business. They have been complaining about it for years and it was getting worse. There had been over 70 arrests between July and December 2007, and the big operation was because nicking them in dribs and drabs wasn't working - they needed to nick about 40 people all at once to have any chance of busting three quite sophisticated organised crime gangs, who were dealing in illegal document, stolen goods, heroin, cocaine and knifing each other in turf wars.

Most of the Algerians in the area have lived there for years and are fine, this was an influx of Algerian GIA sympathisers, chucked out of Algeria for being militants/gangsters, plus some Somalis, and it was getting well dodgy - it was like ''their turf'' - like the rules didn't apply.

 Despite the 72 arrests it was still bad, antisocial behaviour rose as a sign of how people didn't care any more. The massive, shocking show of force DID work. It's like a different area.

 I'm pretty sure business will get back to normal soon.  The anger will die down. There was some mouthing off to the local paper - but the repprter was specifically looking for people to be critical. Others told me they were positive about it and it didn't get reported. Only the critical bits were - and even then, people were saying things like



> “Everyone was happy the bad people have been taken away yet there have been some concerns from the community that there was a bit of excessive force.”



Meanwhile, several women have testified on this board as to what it was like
and here's someone else on the ES board




> As a resident of the area I'm delighted that the police have taken the level of crime here so seriously at last. Every single female neighbour that I know has been mugged and had her handbag stolen in or around Blackstock Road in recent years. The atmosphere at certain times of day feels very menacing for single females, and many friends avoid walking along this street because they feel so threatened. Altogether the theft and gang violence -stabbings etc -have blighted an otherwise excellent place to live.
> 
> - Christine, London, UK



Hardly fabulous for business is it?

 On the Algerian forum link, there are Algerian people bemoaning the fact that the cops have not been tough enough and asking them to crack down before the raid.

It'll blow over, it was far more ropey after 7/7 and we all managed to cope in the area.


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## sally_sally (Apr 7, 2008)

I walked down Blackstock road today at about 1. I was going to the City College cmpus there. There were two men being searched by police near the top of the road where it meets Seven Sisters Road on the right if I am looking down the road. Apart from that the road seemed very quiet and subdued.

As Badger Kitten has stated the road was awful to walk down for single women. It was particularly bad just coming up to christmas. 

Sal


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## durruti02 (Apr 8, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> It wasn't that, it was organised crime. *Stolen goods, heroin, cocaine *.
> 
> eta
> 
> And forged documents and the sale thereof.



but that is pretty widespread across london surely?? sorry i do not think that answers why here and now .. unless it is the first of many across london


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## sal64lon (Apr 8, 2008)

As a business owner at Finsbury park area and especially @ Blackstock road we used to have a meeting with police directly and even report any problem to them too but it seems sometimes police not bothered even to protect  us, as a shop owners, many time I personally caught many pick  pockets and hold them till the police come but after a while police will release these people easily that make me worry and I feel not  protected from  police + It happened 2 times some one come with knife    and we hold them till the police come but these people will be released next day and see them of the front of my shop!! Anyway  I have many examples but at the moment Im in not willing to post it here  cause I m not comfort to do so here maybe in future!

I think in my point of views to solve Finsbury park problems police have to do the following:


1)	- Police have to work directly with shop owners and residents of blackstock road and police should honest and open with us and not like treat us all like criminals.

2) - police sometimes not have enough understanding of other people culture and that sometimes make it worse,

2)	- In my opinion for these whom may make troubles in the area they should be suspended from the area for like 1 year or more!

4)- I think MT should have some Algerian police officers to work in the area to understand the way how these people think because I know some Algerian are very good people, friendly and obey the law in this country …

5)- as everyone know the bad history of Finsbury park, sometimes police officers have a bad image about people from that and that make it worse between police and community  + the last street on Black stockroad 

6) - after the   street raid on Blackstock Road for me as busniness ownr idon ‘t feel safe from police because yesterday and today the 8th/04/08 police keep checking with everyone passing by the door of my shop and that make people go away…imagine I work for £40 per day if the business still like this I will move to an other area! I know the police are doing greate job for us all but sometimes thye make it worse for us!

Thank you all for this great forum and thank you for let me share my points with you…sorry if that make not make any  sence to some of you!

B.R


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## smokedout (Apr 9, 2008)

> · Numerous people and vehicles have been stopped and searched





> · Five vehicles have been seized





> · £4,500 in court fines has been recovered





> · Seven unlicensed taxis have been reported





> · Five referrals have been made to the Council for illegal street trading.





its a crime wave!!!!!!


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## Melinda (Apr 9, 2008)

smokedout- did you read the personal experiences of posters on this thread? Cos that ^^^  is really dismissive. 

600 coppers was riddiculous, but to deny there was a serious issue on that road now is disingenuous at the very least.


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## Giles (Apr 9, 2008)

I suspect that much more serious charges will result from this raid - but they may take a while to be brought. 

The main point was that there was large-scale and organised drug dealing, fencing of stolen property and apparently quite a trade in fake passports and other documents.

They will hopefully have caught some of the bigger fish involved in this stuff, but they may not be charged immediately.

It also was about getting rid of this feeling that it was an area where crime flourished with impunity, and normal rules didn't apply.

Giles..


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## smokedout (Apr 9, 2008)

Melinda said:


> smokedout- did you read the personal experiences of posters on this thread? Cos that ^^^  is really dismissive.
> 
> 600 coppers was riddiculous, but to deny there was a serious issue on that road now is disingenuous at the very least.



hmmm, i can think of a lot more roads in the surrounding areas that have far bigger problems

of course they aren't quite so gentrified


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## tarannau (Apr 9, 2008)

Giles said:


> I suspect that much more serious charges will result from this raid - but they may take a while to be brought.
> 
> The main point was that there was large-scale and organised drug dealing, fencing of stolen property and apparently quite a trade in fake passports and other documents.
> 
> ...



Are you being deliberately dense? The police rarely underpromote their successes.

If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.

The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force. Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.


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## Melinda (Apr 9, 2008)

smokedout said:


> hmmm, i can think of a lot more roads in the surrounding areas that have far bigger problems
> 
> of course they aren't quite so gentrified


Are they main shopping streets where single women are harrassed as they walk-by?

Genuine question-  I know Finsbury Park to shop in- but not to live.  


*sal64lon/ B.R*- what did you think of the descriptions of the previous harassment on the street on this thread? Were the streets that bad in your experience?


----------



## Giles (Apr 9, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Are you being deliberately dense? The police rarely underpromote their successes.
> 
> If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.
> 
> The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force. Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.



Please don't keep on with the personal slurs. I don't accuse anyone who disagrees with me of being "dense" - I state my opinion. No need for insults.

I just pointed out that from what I have read, the cops were after more than JUST the immediate low-level arrests for simple stuff like drug / weapon possession, dodgy cars etc. More charges may follow.

Several people who live there seem to broadly welcome the police's action in breaking up the whole criminal "scene" that had developed there.

Giles..


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## tarannau (Apr 9, 2008)

Perhaps you should become a little informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating arses who spout fatuous headline tosh about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly haven't a clue. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.

As for personal abuse, to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, 'tough'. Deal with it. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you 'dense' on a bulletin board for the pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications that you've made.

I'm still agast that anyone can think that such a heavy handed show of force by the police could ever be considered targeted or constructive. For those of us unfortunate enough to have been stopped by police in raids like this - and let's be honest I suspect that it may well divide on racial grounds - the idea that raids like this are 'fair enough' is just jaw-dropping. 

 Christ, you've even had a shopkeeper in the centre of the activity on this thread tell how, despite. wanting the police to take action before, he was distressed by the way the police went about things. Instead you choose to ignore him and go wittering on about 'several people' who apparently seem to back this defective initiative up. Selective myopia at its most obvious.

Now take your patronising, vacuous oversimplicities and shovel them where the sun don't shine.


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## lighterthief (Apr 9, 2008)

It's just depressing that an obviously bad situation had been left to develop until the only response the police could summon was an operation involving 600 people.  I suppose this is the type of thing that pro-active, community policing would help with, although no doubt this would be classed as "intimidating" or "harassment" or whatever by many on this thread.


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## tarannau (Apr 9, 2008)

lighterthief said:


> It's just depressing that an obviously bad situation had been left to develop until the only response the police could summon was an operation involving 600 people.  I suppose this is the type of thing that pro-active, community policing would help with, although no doubt this would be classed as "intimidating" or "harassment" or whatever by many on this thread.



Who has ever claimed that such community policework would be 'intimidating' or 'harrassment' then? You've even got a shopkeeper on this this thread who's asked for assistance from the police in the past but was clearly distressed by the way this operation went. 

How the bloody hell do you justify the belief that the 'only response' the police could summon was such a massed operation. Pish. It was a high profile show of force, essentally a big 2-fingers to one side of the community hoping to curry favour with another. I don't for one second believe that there weren't alternatives that the police could have looked at. 

Honestly, the strawmen and crass oversimplications on this thread depress me.


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## Giles (Apr 9, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Perhaps you should become a little informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating arses who spout fatuous headline tosh about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly haven't a clue. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.
> 
> As for personal abuse, to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, 'tough'. Deal with it. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you 'dense' on a bulletin board for the pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications that you've made.
> 
> ...



Again, no need for crude language and insults. 

One shopkeeper has been quoted as being upset. 

More than one person has said that what was done solved a big problem. If I have been selective, so have you.

Giles..


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## tarannau (Apr 9, 2008)

Piss off Giles you disingenuous numpty. Where has anyone said that this raid has 'solved the problem'? Or where have I ignored, dismissed or been selective of other viewpoints? - I even directly commented on one of Badger Kitten's posts earlier up.

Your patronsing homilies are bad enough, but the misrepresentation and downright lies are a step too far.


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## lighterthief (Apr 9, 2008)

You seem to get yourself wound up fairly easily, tarranu


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## tarannau (Apr 9, 2008)

To be fair, the idea that anyone could believe that an operation involving 600 cops, targeting a specfic ethnic group, leading to a mere smattering of charges, would be a constructive way to go about things more than depresses me. Add to that you've got idiots like Giles pontificating trite nonsense about 'wronguns' and how it's essentially 'tough' if anyone innocent got caught up unexpectedly in a frighteningly heavy handed raid and it doesn't help.

Honestly, it's like the lessons of mass operations like this, stop and search and the urban riots (Brixton, Toxteth etc) have never been learnt.


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## sal64lon (Apr 9, 2008)

@ Melinda  
 yes I fully agree with your point it's bad and we have been telling that to police long time ago especially to hackney neighbourhood watch (serg Bond team) + we used to have a long talk daily with them but I think hackney police seems Not have a time to do that or not bothered, only Islington police do a better job (to let every body know that blackcock road divided between two borough of hackney and Islington)  
I used to end up in argument with people at blackcock road area telling them not nice to stand across road and harassment on the street however I think sometimes the police fault as well for not having a good way dealing with these people in correct way… and most of these people are youth on their teen ager or 20s and sometimes they try to show off on front of their friends…Also they are new to the country  +++ Many things to say…the whole problem started from one cafe called the yellow café  the owner used to have let everyone sell anything and anything inside his café to let more costumers in but after years it come harder for him to control it so he had to sell that café to someone else ,,,so the next owner rented to someone and that someone not care or bothered  so that’s how situation start from bad to very worse.. (And sometimes the new owner worries about his life in case he told these people to get lost!!)
Especially not easy for a worker to work and do the police job in the same time!


We used to report some crime to police especially 999 and sometimes 999 says we are calling them many times etc…so that made us shocked etc…however we try to help and we tried to be part of the area but it seems whatever we do we put down!!
At one time a police officer attacked and we have to save him!!

+ One time we saw someone wanted on  crime watch we told police about it and that took them over ¾ month to arrest these 2 people …we reported to hackney side but hackney ignore it   or they don’t have a time  for that!!? Till I saw one office from Islington side I have told him n he report that to his team!! As a shop owner sometimes we are under stress   too from police or from these people! So much to say and too little have been done it seems sometimes police not helping us only make it worse for our business! 

Thank you


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## Giles (Apr 10, 2008)

According to press reports, the police also recovered:

300 stolen mobiles recovered, as well as 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods and 20 satnavs. Oh, and 47 forged passports and driving licenses.

Giles..


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## tarannau (Apr 10, 2008)

No shit sherlock. That info's in the first post of this thread.

It would have been possible to make those seizures without the 600 coppers and the swamping of an area you know.


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## Giles (Apr 10, 2008)

tarannau said:


> No shit sherlock. That info's in the first post of this thread.
> 
> It would have been possible to make those seizures without the 600 coppers and the swamping of an area you know.



I assume that part of the reason for having so many police was to make it clear that "resistance is futile". To prevent any kind of riot breaking out.

Giles..


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## tarannau (Apr 10, 2008)

Has that area got a history of rioting then? Can't trust those bleeding Algerians I guess.  Blimey, they even managed to swoop on mobile phone rings in the heart of genteel Brixton without a fifteenth of that force.

There's risk prevention and there's an overwhelming show of force. Trying to portray it as anything other than the latter does you no favours.


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## sal64lon (Apr 10, 2008)

well now I can see police harassing people around our door steps ( and checking on people ) and that kill our business for example if I  felt tired and need to have some rest of my free  time and seat outside my shop police will asked who are am I etc..? That not nice every time it really make you feel like they doing that to stress you or to kill the business and the whole area!! As an Algerian I’m really left in the middle and our life now with police depressing …We used to know some police officer which we knew  but with new police officer walking in the road upside down that  make the whole life sad and more upside down!!


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## tarannau (Apr 11, 2008)

Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively fuck all to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my arse. 

I'd love to speak to the arsehole who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.


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## sal64lon (Apr 11, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively fuck all to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my arse.
> 
> I'd love to speak to the arsehole who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.



Thanks for your reply and that make a good points 
however you know  on Wednesday   the Commander of Islington Police Bob Carr come to our shops to have check things and I had a long talk with him and I have explain to him that raid was heavy-handed!! + Some Algerian community and business owner think that because of   the French president and his visit to the area as every body know of the long connection of the French government   on Algeria business! Some people say to me! Also the way how the police on that day were confused what to do and how rude they reacted toward people like swearing and use a racists words etc…I think some people of Algerian community going to write and meet their Mps + meeting with the Algerian high commission here in London to discuses this matter !


http://www.thecnj.co.uk/islington/2008/040408/news040408_04.html


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## sal64lon (Apr 11, 2008)

Giles said:


> According to press reports, the police also recovered:
> 
> 300 stolen mobiles recovered, as well as 120 laptops, 110 cameras, 32 iPods and 20 satnavs. Oh, and 47 forged passports and driving licenses.
> 
> Giles..




well press always tell lies in most cases to make things sound very bad!! To let everyone know that if that was very bad................
the police will close some shops etc...but nothing happened like that at blackstock road area!


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## sal64lon (Apr 12, 2008)

today George Galloway MP visited The Algerian community & the business community at Blackstock road in Finsbury Park first of all you will hear someone talking In arabic and than follow by Mr George Galloway


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=MNXSbMb63zg#GU5U2spHI_4


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## sal64lon (Apr 17, 2008)

Respect the residents of Blackstock Road! 
Respect activists and MP George Galloway visited a number of shopkeepers and also spoke with customers in Blackstock Road on Saturday, to gauge reaction to the massive police raid in the area two weeks before. 

George commented after the visit:

"What I've found here is a large number of very unhappy law-abiding people. This police raid seems to have been a massive over-reaction. They effectively invaded the area military-style. In the course of the raid equipment in a number of shops was broken.

"I am very concerned that shopkeepers, particularly of Algerian origin, were targeted. I made the visit to assure them of my support as an MP and as, I hope, a future member of the London Assembly. The Finsbury Park area is vibrant and friendly and the Algerian community has added colour and life.

"There has been much adverse tabloid publicity over the last few years about Finsbury Park which completely belies the reality. Many of those who were raided by the police had hitherto had confidence in the police but that has now been lost and it will be difficult to bring it back. The police claim they had to deploy very large numbers in order to avoid violence but deploying hundreds of police in this way is an act of violence.

"No proper explanation, never mind an apology, has been made to the many shopkeepers who were affected. I intend to write to the Metropolitan Police Commissioner to pass on the concerns that have been expressed to me and to raise more general questions about the nature of policing in the area."


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## lighterthief (Apr 17, 2008)

sal64lon said:


> Respect the residents of Blackstock Road!
> Respect activists and MP George Galloway visited a number of shopkeepers and also spoke with customers in Blackstock Road on Saturday, to gauge reaction to the massive police raid in the area two weeks before.
> 
> George commented after the visit:
> ...


Crikey.  Anyone would think it is an election year.  Oh wait.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

got a comment on my blog abut blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here



> Thank you for your positive comments regarding Operation Mista and for those made by your contributors. I am pleased that we are winning the support of the local community following Phase 1 (Home address raids) and Phase 2 (Blackstock Road raids) on 27th March. We are now engaged in Phase 3, which is the long-term policing solution to eradicate organised crime and anti-social behaviour in your community.
> 
> I manage a pro-active team of undercover police and immigration officers (OP Swale) with the sole aim to remove foreign nationals from the UK who cause harm to our communities because of their criminal activity. If we cannot remove them (some nationalities are extremely difficult to deport) we will do our best to put them in prison for their crimes whilst working on a deportation solution.
> 
> ...


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## detective-boy (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> got a comment on my blog abut blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here


Yeah, yeah ... bloody internet savvy cops ... posting on blogs today ... running for Mayor tomorrow ...


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## sally_sally (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> got a comment on my blog about blackstock rd left by the cops yesterday! so sharing it here



Well done Badger Kitten, I wonder if he reads Urban75 too?


Lots of friends have said they feel a lot lot safer going to the Blackstock Road  Islington College campus, than they did before. 

I hope they do what they say and and stop the problem coming back I really do.

Sal


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## tarannau (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I also acknowledge from the postings there are legitimate Cafes and businesses in the area who have welcomed the police action. We have done our best to target the premises who gave the criminal gangs refuge to operate within the area, but I am getting to know the good guys too as we sweep through the area. I do not want to upset the decent folk who just want to make an honest living, but in my experience some of the more overtly friendly café owners have turned out to be the worst offenders! I welcome your views on who you think we could work with in the future.



Roughly translates as: 
_<Moralistic, leading claptrap about 'good guys' and 'decent folk> It's about them and us. Even the ones that appear friendly may not be - you can't trust them foreigners on face value can you? But if you can understand those ethnics, be sure to snitch them in and give us a way in._

If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the lie that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution. Very nice of him to 'acknowledge' that there are at least some legitimate businesses. 

It doesn't take a skilled reader to unpick that policeman's, sorry DI's, attitudes.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

> I have witnessed the harassment of females by these local youths, seen the blatant robbery of people going about their daily business, dealt with the aftermath of the stabbings and been amazed at the volume of stolen property that has passed through Blackstock Road. For each item of stolen property from a burglary, robbery or theft there was a story of loss, fear and violation of somebody’s life.
> 
> Nothing has pleased me more in my 21 years in the Metropolitan Police than to see a grown man cry for joy when he re-united with his stolen laptop containing all his family photos, emails, downloads, bank accounts and work all intact (none of it backed up!). The arrested suspect who decided to deprive this man of his memories is in custody awaiting trial.



The females who were harassed include Black, white and Asian women.

The robbery of people is people of all nationalities and ethnicities.

The stabbing victims included Algerian men.

The burglaries were from homeowners of all ethnic backgrounds.

But I suppose that doesn't matter?
What about the testimony of real people who have experienced abuse on the road on this thread - at least 3 women have said it is real.


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## tarannau (Apr 24, 2008)

I don't think anyone's denying that something needed to be done.

However, that's a world away from believing that such a divisive and heavy-handed swamping operation was necessary or anything other than counter-productive in building good relationships between the Algerian sand wider community

I note you haven't dealt with any of Sal64ion's posts on this thread. Much like the policeman, people seem quick to gloss over his contributions and community's voices. 

Please also bear in mind that sally_sally is a bit of an unpleasantly sanctimonious bibble-head who help cause more than a little bit of a row on the Brixton forums yesterday, dismissively implying that the victims of (and witnesses to) a horrific traffic accident were 'pissheads' .


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

Louloubelle said:


> I regularly visit the area and my experience is similar to BK's.
> 
> I've been followed by some crazy guy who threatened me with sexual assault (apparently I was an English whore) in exactly the stretch of Blackstock road where the raids took place.
> 
> ...





sally_sally said:


> Hi Badger Kitten, I have had exactly the same treatment. Lately I had stopped visiting a friend who lives down Ambler Road, just off Blackstock Road.
> 
> I was spat on, pinched and called a white slut. All I was wearing was jeans a tee-shirt. I hope they dont come back. I walked down the street last friday with my friend and the place seemed deserted, there was a mobile police station van and quite a  few police about.
> 
> Sal





durruti02 said:


> my experiance too .. though as i said i know a lot of women who did not like the vibe





catrina said:


> I had my phone stolen from my hand three years ago not far from there. Well done, coppers. Why anyone would have sympathy for thieves being done is beyond me.





> As a resident of the area I'm delighted that the police have taken the level of crime here so seriously at last. Every single female neighbour that I know has been mugged and had her handbag stolen in or around Blackstock Road in recent years. The atmosphere at certain times of day feels very menacing for single females, and many friends avoid walking along this street because they feel so threatened. Altogether the theft and gang violence -stabbings etc -have blighted an otherwise excellent place to live.
> 
> - Christine, London, UK



I have to say I'm not impressed with the way you have dismissed sally's experience because of a remark on a different thread, especially as several other people have backed up what she said.

The raid was a long time in the planning, intelligence-based, and I don't think the ACAB attitude is helping much.


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## tarannau (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I have to say I'm not impressed with the way you have dismissed sally's experience because of a remark on a different thread, especially as several other people have backed up what she said.
> 
> The raid was a long time in the planning, intelligence-based, and I don't think the ACAB attitude is helping much.



What ACAB attitude? I'm commenting solely on the basis of this operation and the dodgy letter the DI wrote.

If I sound distrustful, it's because I am. Sadly my experience of police undertaking operations like this has been universally bad - police going in en masse are rarely tactful or good at communicating. Short of a riot there's never any justification for swamping an area like that imo - it may guarantee police peace of mind and provide a show of strength, but those caught up in such an operation - guilty or not - will almost certainly feel frightened and treated like criminals. You may not want to believe it, but trust me when policemen rush in en masse  they rarely have the sensitivity, diversity and ability to communicate any better. It's a group of lads on a bum rush, with much obvious force and shouting

It's boneheadedly heavy-handed operations like this that inflame communities and lead to a future lack of trust and lack of cooperation. Why let it to get to this stage and then make a much trumpeted show of force? It stinks of deperation, lack of foresight and the need to be seen doing something, fuck whatever the long term results or the impact on the Algerian community.


----------



## detective-boy (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> ... - at least 3 women have said it is real.


It's not though, is it?

tarannau _knows_ it's all made up, based on some text analysis ...

 ... or should that be "prejudice" ... 

As if anyone able to count to three without using their fingers could seriously believe that an operation of this size would / could be mounted on a whim, without significant evidence and intelligence gathering ...


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

> I manage a pro-active team of undercover police and immigration officers (OP Swale) with the sole aim to remove foreign nationals from the UK who cause harm to our communities because of their *criminal activity*. If we cannot remove them (some nationalities are extremely difficult to deport) we will do our best to put them in prison for their crimes whilst working on a deportation solution.



He has specifically said he was after foreign nationals engaged in criminal activity: that's his job, that's what he is looking for


> OP Mista was 18 months in planning and 12 months was spent gathering evidence against *52* of *the most harmful criminals.*



It takes a long time to gather intelligence on 52 people and 52 people in a 100-yard area is a lot. A total of 97 arrests have been made which is alos a lot, given such a small area of one road. I don;t see how you could swoop and arrest all the people at once without large numbers of police. If they went in property by property, they would all have scarpered. They would never have got sign off for such a huge amount of resources if they weren't able to indicate evidence that they had a serious problem. They had been on it for ages, and they needed to be, because it was becoming a threatening frightening area with extremely high levels of criminal activity.

I have lived in the area for years, I walk there at least twice a day. 
I have seen with my own eyes that it was getting worse and worse. A year of arrests and warnings didn't seem to be stopping it, it was escalating.

I am also pretty sure, though I can't prove it yet, and will be waiting for the trials, that money was being diverted to  fund terrorism and extremist causes.

 I am sure that it was frightening for people caught up in it, but I still think it was the right thing to do because, as I said, it was an endemic problem and it was getting dangerous 

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5028754.stm

http://www.algeria.com/forums/open-board-forum-libre/19368-finsbury-park.html




> 28 March 2007 Police are concerned that rising tension within Finsbury Park’s Algerian community is leading to vicious turf war.
> 
> On Wednesday night a man was stabbed in the groin in Blackstock Road and was last night (Thursday) still recovering in hospital.
> 
> ...





> 27 April 2007 Traders protest as crime-hit road is closed off again after knifing:
> 27 April 2007 -- RIVAL gangs involved in drug dealing and selling stolen electrical goods could be to blame for the latest stabbing in Finsbury Park.
> Traders and residents told the Tribune that Tuesday afternoon’s knife attack in Blackstock Road may be linked to a burgeoning drugs trade.
> 
> ...


”

link


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## detective-boy (Apr 24, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Short of a riot there's never any justification for swamping an area like that imo


Yes, there may well be.  Several different justifications in fact.  But it's a total waste of time explaining them to you because you already _know_ and will take absolutely no notice of anything anyone else (especially an ex-pig) says.  So I won't.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

> 9 May, 2007 -- A café worker is rebuilding his life after being knifed in a street that has seen three stabbings in six weeks.
> 
> The 32-year-old Algerian, who does not want to be identified, spoke to the Gazette about his ordeal - and about the problems in Blackstock Road, Finsbury Park.
> 
> ...



This is all from an Algerian discussion board



> August 24, 2007 -- Dozens of mobile phones are being stolen to order every week and ‘fenced’ through middlemen in Finsbury Park who mail them in bundles to north Africa.
> 
> A senior police officer said last night (Thursday) that Blackstock Road was one of London’s “hotspots” for fencing stolen mobiles to Algeria.
> 
> ...



link


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

19 businesses were targeted and you got DOZENS of arrests - they were after 50 odd people. Doesn't that, and the articles I've linked show you that there was a massive problem in a very small area?


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## tarannau (Apr 24, 2008)

detective-boy said:


> It's not though, is it?
> 
> tarannau _knows_ it's all made up, based on some text analysis ...
> 
> ...



Erm, nice strawman. At no point at time have I suggested that no action should be taken, or that there wasn't an issue on the road.

I do, however, stick to my view that such a heavy-handed raid will be counterproductive. I think even you would concede Dboy, that police on a massed raid are hardly the most sensitive or tactful community relations experts.


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## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

How many people do you think you would need to arrest 52 people simultaneously in a 100 yard stretch of road in 19 properties, with suspicions that some, or all  of the 52 may be armed with knives?

Can you do the maths and let me know? 

Please also factor in that a police officer was stabbed to death in 2005 during a raid on a single property an Algerian from the same area?

You also need to factor in enough officers to secure the area to prevent peopel escaping as you make the arrests, and to keep the public safe during the arrests of the 52.


----------



## Badger Kitten (Apr 24, 2008)

See, I make that about 8-9 officers to arrest each person, with the remainder guarding the roads leading into Blackstock Rd and protecting the public. 52 people in 19 buildings with 8-9 officers looking for each person, given that the arrestee may be carrying a knife, and may have had military or combat experience in Algeria, ( not saying that they did, but you have to factor that in when dealing with organised crime gangs with links to the GIA) isn't that scary, given that some of the buildings are 3 stories high and have back yards as well.

Meanwhile



> April 11, 2008 -- Finsbury Park’s *“Little Algiers” will be under surveillance for the next three months as police and businesses help rebuild the reputation of an area where a rogue street trading racket sparked a massive raid two weeks ago. A dispersal zone, introduced in Blackstock Road last week, will run until June 27, allowing police to break up groups who gather in the streets for criminal purposes.
> 
> Business owners are determined to rescue the reputation of the area and with it the trade they say has dropped since 600 police officers in riot gear descended on Blackstock Road. The raid angered the mainly Algerian population, who saw the operation as a “clampdown on Algerians”.
> 
> ...



Link


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## detective-boy (Apr 24, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Erm, nice strawman. At no point at time have I suggested that no action should be taken, or that there wasn't an issue on the road.


That wasn't _quite_ my point though, was it?  My point was that you denied that the operation was based on extensive intelligence and evidence gathering:  



> If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the lie that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution.



See that?  You _state_ that there was a "lack of any *real* police intelligence".  You _state_ that the police claim that it was a properly targeted operation was a "lie".  That is arrant bollocks (and you have no basis for the statements (other than your prejudices) anyway, even if it was true).  Hence my response.



> I think even you would concede Dboy, that police on a massed raid are hardly the most sensitive or tactful community relations experts.


No they're not.  But there is a difference between 600 officers going into a single situation (club, protest, rave) where there is disorder and immediate threat of attack (which I suspect is more like the experience you're recalling) and a situation like this where the officers were deploying in groups of 10 or so to lots of different premises simultaneously, with no particular immediate disorder.  Although it _looked_ like the former situation it was actually more like dozens of simultaneous premises search / arrest operations.  And groups of 10 or so officers carry out thousands of such individual operations every day and are perfectly capable of doing so in sensitive and tactful ways.


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## detective-boy (Apr 24, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> How many people do you think you would need to arrest 52 people simultaneously in a 100 yard stretch of road in 19 properties, with suspicions that some, or all  of the 52 may be armed with knives?


Precisely.

But there is a valid question to be asked as to why it had been allowed to get into that situation in the first place - it didn't happen overnight and competent policing should have intervened sooner.  I suspect part of the problem was that Blackstock Road is a boundary between two police divisions - Islington and Hackney - which would mean that each only saw half the problems and patrols would be more sparse than for areas in the centre of their areas.  Dealing with boundary issues is something the police do not do well - "Not my problem, mate.  Try ... "  (Recalls lengthy debate between two Major Incident Units about who was responsible for investigating an attempted murder in Kennington Park Rd - shots fired from Lambeth side (SW AMIT), hitting victim on Southwark side (SE AMIT) ...)


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## Treacle Toes (Apr 25, 2008)

tarannau said:


> I note you haven't dealt with any of Sal64ion's posts on this thread. Much like the policeman, people seem quick to gloss over his contributions and community's voices.
> .


I was thinking this ^^^^^^^^^^^ to.
It seems strange, seeing as Sal64lon seems to be posting from the heart of this community.


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## sal64lon (Apr 29, 2008)

*The Algerian Community Based In London*

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON

We addressing this communiqué to the public, official and media attention, to raise our concern and revolt, after an unacceptable discriminating attitude and the mistreatment reserved to the Algerian community which has occurred in a democratic and a free country, where linguistic diversity and pluralism, has been always in the front line of the British legislation.
We have at this stage decided to voice our concern, we were choked as so many others, after the raid which took place in Blackstock Road (within Finsbury Park area ), targeting particularly the Algerian community.
A raid which shouldn’t happened in the first place in a civilised society like Britain, in fact we are totally aware that some extreme and dangerous behaviour were going on within the area, of individuals from the Algerian community and others, we have had by the past many attempts, with the local authorities in order to clean up the road of gangs, criminals, thieves, drug dealers and all type of prohibited activities.
We did try on numerous occasions to get rid of criminals operating within the road, but unfortunately we didn’t get an expected response from the authorities.
In this respect the Algerian community based in London, would like to clarify the following:
First of all, we support any project aiming to establish safety and fight criminality.
We strongly reject the method used by the Metropolitain Police, during the raid in the area, because such a tough response will eventually lead to the adoption of hatred by the people, this may also lead to some unpredictable reactions, in this particular timing where everybody is trying to establish a cooperative process with all parties to achieve a full integration among the communities.
We also reject the mistreatment reserved to traders or shopkeepers along the road, as they were treated similarly to criminals, while they were fully complying with the commercial procedures, and no case of an unlawful l behaviour has been uncounted among the trader’s community in the road.
We strongly denounce the total silence and selfishness from the Islamic parties adjacent to the road. 
We do by the give a full admiration and consideration to the positive positions of some British MP’S, notably Mr Geremy Corbin, Mr George Galloway and the Mayor of the city of London, Mr Ken Levingstone.
We also would like to point out that the Algerian community members always gave an extraordinary example in terms of respecting follow members of the community, obeying by the law and order, trying their best to integrate, so a small minority of criminals doesn’t in any way represent the community.
We do finally admit that the area has experienced a very dangerous and difficult situation, particularly this road and the adjacent zone, in this respect we would like to stress that we are fully prepared to cooperate with all parties in order to deal with this matter in total, to prevent the community from a substantially risky exposure.

THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON
25th April 2008


P.S: a lot of people think all that do with sarkozy’s Visit to the area (It happen while the French president was at arsenal stadium


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## WouldBe (Apr 29, 2008)

WWWeed said:


> some?!? there are loads of people who can do it! The reason why mobile phone theft is still huge is because it is so easy to get the IMEI changed!


On Ericsson phones any attempt to re-write any of the 'IMEI' data resulted in the data being erased. This included the calibration data rendering the phone useless.

There was some software to erase the 'IMEI' data but this involved erasing the operating system, down loading the special software then having to re-load the operating system.


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## sal64lon (Apr 30, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.


Sorry how do you know me in real life!, and you think it wasn’t appropriate!!?
You have your own opinion and I have mine the same as every body else.


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## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> I haven't responded to him because I think I know who he is in real life and didn't think it was appropriate. I have been talking to several of the shopowners in Blackstock rd - of various nationalities.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

because I'd rather talk to him privately face to face if we are going to talk than publicly on a message board

eta: I agree with what he says in his last post, but I don't see how else the police could have simultaneously arrested so many people - as per my previous posts about doing the maths.

If I was in the shop at the time of the raid, and was questioned by the police, I would probably have been freaked out too, however, I would have understood why it was happening.   I do not think that the police were doing it deliberately to stir up trouble, in fact everything I have found out suggests the opposite and conspiracy/victimisation theories don't help.


----------



## tarannau (May 1, 2008)

Why? Is there some sort of special covert handshake you need to perform?

I don't understand the cloak and daggers, nor why you've glossed over and ignored his contribution. Do comments only merit mention if they're not from the Algerian community most affected?


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Why? Is there some sort of special covert handshake you need to perform?
> 
> I don't understand the cloak and daggers, nor why you've glossed over and ignored his contribution. Do comments only merit mention if they're not from the Algerian community most affected?



No. Stop stirring, there is nothing to be paranoid about.


I would rather speak to him face to face.Since I know who he is and where his shop is, and he doesn't know my identity. Therefore it seems fairer to talk privately rather than publicly, so the balance is restored.

I have quoted a very great deal of information form an Algerian message board, posted by Algerians. I have spoken to and continue to shop in and continue to talk to Algerian businessmen and Algerian-run businesses in the area. So please quit making this into something this isn't.

 I choose how I communicate in this situation, and I 'd like to continue to talk to my neighbours and local businesses in the way I find most appropriate, which is equally, face to face, not on a board when one of us knows who the other is and the other doesn't. That's my choice, and nobody else's business, frankly.


----------



## tarannau (May 1, 2008)

What a load of betty swollocks. So you can pontificate down to sal and ignore his comments on a bulletin board, but you can be nicer in real life? Why not just be transparent in both mediums?

You can choose how you want to communicate of course, but we're also free to interpret your reasons as a unnecessary load of old cobblers.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

And I can regard you as a shit-stirrer who's trying to make trouble.  Trying, very hard, but *yawn* it's not working on me.



I haven't ignored his comments, nor any other Algerian person's comments, I've gone and not only read up what Algerians have been saying on an Algerian board over the last few years and posted it all up here for your edification, but as I live here, and work here I've talked to local people as well, and the police, and my neighbours. In real life. As well as ''pontificate'' on a board ( which is all you are doing)

    I've *also* said I agree with sal64lon's comment -  but don't let that stop you.  I can see what you are trying to do, but I can't be arsed with indulging you in your little stirring campaign, so I've popped you on ignore for now.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> To be honest, I can believe anyone's seriously going to defend such an indisciminate and divisive action. If this was done with widespread community consent and (*snigger*) proper police intelligence then there may have been a point, but I suspect this was another heavy handed effort of police swamping an area with all the politeness of rhinos with severe piles. The net result will be a more divided community, greater resentment....and I suspect the normal equilibrium will be established very soon.
> 
> I'd like to be proved wrong, but I've seen the police pull the same shit far too often in Brixton. Far too many good people get caught up in such actions and treated like shit ime, leading to very little ongoing support.



You decided it was ''indiscriminate'' and ''divisive''  - but it wasn't indiscriminate, nor particularly divisive. The Algerian community have said their piece and plenty of other people, who also have a right to live and work in the area have welcomed it - a fact you have chosen to completely ignore. 



tarannau said:


> *To be honest that doesn't deserve a response Giles.*
> 
> If you can't see the problem with such an indiscriminate raid then there's *little hope for you*. You've already started *waffling on *about 'wrong uns' and I half expect the eggs and omelette line to be trotted out with depressing predictability. Hate to point it out, but there was plenty the police could have down before it reached this stage and they could launch a swampingly media friendly 'tough on crime' raid.



Proof has been provided that this was part of an 18 month operation, with a great deal of preceeding police activity - a fact you have chosen to ignore 
( as well as using intemperate language - and we're off..



tarannau said:


> You have touching faith in police intelligence then BK, far more than I have. And the point remains that a simulatenous crackdown on so many premises and a whole stretch of a road can never really be described as 'targeted'
> 
> Given many shopkeepers reactions to the raids, complete with banners and reports of severe community unrest, I doubt many share your sunny optimism.
> 
> I've never heard of a raid like this that hasn't been divisive and counterproductive. As a *willy-waving *show of force to show the *curtain-twitchers* supposedly who's boss it's fine, but if it has any lasting effect other than resentment and ill will I'll be very surprised. Policemen don't do sensitivity and community relations well on massed raids ime.



There is no ''severe community unrest''. There's a few banners and people have expressed their grievances to politicians and the police and others have expressed their relief - and told of their problems in the area  -  which you have chosen to ignore.



tarannau said:


> Are you being *deliberately dense*? The police rarely underpromote their successes.
> 
> If anything - like the terrorist raids last year - charges tend to be quietly dropped after the big media grabbing event, not added to.
> 
> The shopkeeper's response on this thread is illuminating. Yes, the area needed something done, but what it didn't need was a *heavy handed show of insdiscriminate force.* Anyone who's been caught up in operations like this - and I've been in a few unfortunately - know that* police intelligence generally equates to assessing you on the basis of your skin colour*, with the average copper being far from a model of sensitivity and decent communication. It's a demeaning and community-destroying way to go about things.



They had a list of exactly who they were going for, a fact, once again, you have chosen to ignore.



tarannau said:


> Perhaps you should become a l*ittle informed before spouting your 'suspicions' and silly oversimplifications* then Giles. Maybe I'm being unsympathetic, but I've little patience with pontificating *arses* who spout *fatuous headline tosh* about 'big fish', an area where normal rules don't apply and 'catching a lot of unpleasant people up to some pretty unpleasant things' when they clearly *haven't a clue*. So far all those 600 coppers have come up with is a smattering of stolen vehicles, less than 5k in fines and a few illegal street traders.
> 
> As for *personal abuse,* to reuse your phrase about people being wrongfully arrested, '*tough'. Deal with it*. What do you think's worse - having you and your friends swamped by hundreds of police in an indiscriminate raid, being identified and targeted mainly by your racial appearance and treated like shit. Or having a nameless bod calling you *'dense*' on a bulletin board for the *pious moralising and stupid oversimplifications* that you've made.
> 
> ...



Interesting use of tone there.



tarannau said:


> *Piss off Giles you disingenuous numpty*. Where has anyone said that this raid has 'solved the problem'? Or where have I ignored, dismissed or been selective of other viewpoints? - I even directly commented on one of Badger Kitten's posts earlier up.
> 
> Your *patronsing homilies* are bad enough, but the *misrepresentation and downright lies* are a step too far.



What about your own misrepresentation? It's so obvious that you are angry and are making a point because you have an agenda....but you're also wilfully ignoring everything else that doesn't chime with it. Like the voices of people who are in the area saying that they  had been subject to frightening criminal harassment, abuse, and theft.



tarannau said:


> To be fair, the idea that anyone could believe that an operation involving 600 cops, targeting a specfic ethnic group, leading to a mere smattering of charges, would be a constructive way to go about things more than depresses me. Add to that you've got idiots like Giles pontificating trite nonsense about 'wronguns' and how it's essentially 'tough' if anyone innocent got caught up unexpectedly in a frighteningly heavy handed raid and it doesn't help.
> 
> Honestly, it's like the lessons of mass operations like this, stop and search and the urban riots (Brixton, Toxteth etc) have never been learnt.



It's not ''a specific ethnic group'', but 57 specific criminals.Who happen to be from Algeria.

But feel free to ignore that as you froth on....ignoring posts about the maths of simulataneously arresting dozens of organised criminals operating in gangs.



tarannau said:


> Sorry to hear it Sal64lon. It sounds that, after years of doing effectively *fuck al*l to help out the decent folks in your community, the police have now overeacted and are now criminalising everyone. It's hardly the way to build trust and further co-operation in future. Targeted operation my *arse*.
> 
> I'd love to speak to the *arsehole* who authorised such a counterproductive, downright harmful initiative.



And lo, the police officer's response has been published. Hvae you talked to him? Would you listen if he answered? Or have you already made up your mind? 







tarannau said:


> Roughly translates as:
> _<*Moralistic, leading claptrap *about 'good guys' and 'decent folk> *It's about them and us.* Even the ones that appear friendly may not be - *you can't trust them foreigners* on face value can you? But if you can understand t*hose ethnics*, be sure to *snitch them in* and give us a way in._
> 
> If anything betrays the lack of any real police intelligence and betrays the *lie *that it was a properly targeted operation it's that contribution. Very nice of him to 'acknowledge' that there are at least some legitimate businesses.
> ...



No agenda at all then. No misrepresenation, oh no.



tarannau said:


> I don't think anyone's denying that something needed to be done.
> 
> However, that's a world away from believing that such a divisive and heavy-handed swamping operation was necessary or anything other than counter-productive in building good relationships between the Algerian sand wider community
> 
> ...





And on...and on...


That's why you're on ignore.There's no point taking to you, when your agenda is so obvious and your anger so apparent. You seem to be doing more to further the cause of divisiveness than anyone else.


----------



## tarannau (May 1, 2008)

Gawd, you ain't half a self regarding type. Love your accusations of stirring and the  belief in some way that "I'm working on you.' WTF - that's advanced paranoia in a  nutshell

I've been transparent and straightforward throughout with my thoughts. There's been no need for me to voice separate 'on board' and 'real life' personas, talking piously of your discussions with the Algerian community off board but with no detail. It's the new 'I've Algerian friends, but..' get out clause. 

Frankly I see no reason why you can't engage Sal on the boards properly. It's one thing saying that you 'agree' with him, but you were entirely in support of the raids earlier on the thread, finally seemingly to give a little later on. 

Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the police's inaction leading up to this point. This action was ill advised, heavy handed and counterproductive to community relations. The fact that some, fortunate enough not to be the right 'type' or colour to be involved in the raid, were so keen to applaud such a clumsy operation did indeed depress me. It's as if the lessons of the past haven't learnt.


----------



## tarannau (May 1, 2008)

Am I angry about the raids? yes? But more from the perspective of a person who's been caught up in similar clumsy raids and operations in the past. There is no excuse for cheerleading heavy handed operations like this, nor for people reacting with triumphant tone about them, particularly when fatuous comparisons about 'good guys/bad guys' are bandied about

I'll stick by my comments about Sally-sally and Giles btw. If you've seen Giles' contributions elsewhere you'll know why, and Sally's response on a recent Brixton thread, characterising the victim and witnesses of a horrific road accidents as 'pissheads' was the height of shameful insensivity.


----------



## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

Oh, what the hell. I've taken you off ignore to have a peek and what do I find?

1.Kick off with an insult.
2. Yes, you are stirring. Look at your angry tone, the insults you have used and your ignoring of anything that doesn't fit your ''suspicions'' ( later found to be untrue) that this was an indiscriminate  raid made with no intelligence.
3.Accusation of mental illness, lovely.
4.Claims to have been ''transparent'' and ''straightforward''. Well, you've actually been rude and abusive, but I suppose that is one way of putting it.  Insinuation that others haven;t been transparent - smear - why on earth do you think they haven't? They have, I have, so this is just smearing.
5.Why do you think I will post details of private real life discussions here, without their permission? Why is it your business what I discuss in my local shops and with my neighbours?  
6.Accusation of not engaging ''Sal'' on the boards - but I have, and anyway, I am under no obligation to answer every single poster on a thread individually.
7. I do agree with the raids. Every time I walk down the street, every day, I am pleased - no, thrilled - that I don't have to run the gauntlet of anxiety about racist abuse and sexual harassment. I am pleased that the profits of crime are not going to fund terrorism and cause death and injury and crime in Algeria and elsewhere. I agree with Sal that something had to be done, that's what I agree with him about, and I am pleased that the Algerian community says so - they have been saying so for years, as I showed, with all the Algerian board posts I put up.
8.There was no preceding police inaction ( you keep ignoring this point, even when the officer in charge explains it in a post)
9. Finally a vague accusation of racism - no - I'm not anti-Algerian - I have chosen to make my home in this area because I love this area - I am however, anti-criminal racist theives operating in my area with arrogant impunity,  whatever colour or creed they are - and I would feel exactly the same if it was a bunch of English criminal gangs.


So, back on ignore, as there really isn't any point debating this with you.
_
 ''I don't live in the area but I know for a fact,  that all police, everywhere are horrid nasty racist bastards who swoop without bothering to gather proper intelligence and launch  divisive raids that cause widespread community unrest because they just love to give non-white people an indiscriminate kicking and anyone who doesn't agree with me is ...<insert doom-mongering here>... so why don't you <insert swearing and insults here>_


----------



## sally_sally (May 1, 2008)

sal64lon said:


> THE ALGERIAN COMMUNITY BASED IN LONDON
> 
> We addressing this communiqué to the public, official and media attention, to raise our concern and revolt, after an unacceptable discriminating attitude and the mistreatment reserved to the Algerian community which has occurred in a democratic and a free country, where linguistic diversity and pluralism, has been always in the front line of the British legislation.
> We have at this stage decided to voice our concern, we were choked as so many others, after the raid which took place in Blackstock Road (within Finsbury Park area ), targeting particularly the Algerian community.
> ...



Hi sal, whats it like now from a shop keepers point of view. Is it still quiet? When I walk down the road it seems quiet now but I am not there late at night.

Have the people who were causing trouble ventured back yet?

Sal


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## jæd (May 1, 2008)

tarannau said:


> Nothing, absolutely nothing justifies the police's inaction leading up to this point. This action was ill advised, heavy handed and counterproductive to community relations. The fact that some, fortunate enough not to be the right 'type' or colour to be involved in the raid, were so keen to applaud such a clumsy operation did indeed depress me. It's as if the lessons of the past haven't learnt.



The community seems to have welcomed the action by the police...  And any large police-action will be heavy-handed by its very nature. And yep, I've been caught up in one or two, but once the cops established I'm not who their looking for, and been free to leave...

To bring it down to a simplistic level, which you rather have : "Heavy handed" operations that disperse criminals, or to have criminal gangs getting on with various actives and intimidating women...?


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## Badger Kitten (May 1, 2008)

If it was racist white English criminals hissing abuse and grabbing at the veils of  local women shopping and going to the Mosque  - and stealing their bags and phones and trading in stolen goods and false documents and committing organised benefit fraud  on a huge scale, and sending the money to white supremacist groups, and 600 police arrested 57 of them on a list in a 100 yard area  after 18 months planning, would that be a problem?

I wouldn't  have thought so, and this is no different.

Criminal gangs. Don't give a shit what  ethnicity or nationality or religion or whatever they are, they needed to be stopped.


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## smokedout (May 1, 2008)

meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed


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## Giles (May 1, 2008)

smokedout said:


> meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed



Another problem that needs solving, then.

Pointing this out does not alter the rightness or wrongness of the Blackstock Road operation, does it?

Giles..


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## sally_sally (May 1, 2008)

smokedout said:


> meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed



Where do you mean, Green Lanes? Not Highbury Grove.

Sal


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## tarannau (May 1, 2008)

Badger Kitten said:


> If it was racist white English criminals hissing abuse and grabbing at the veils of  local women shopping and going to the Mosque  - and stealing their bags and phones and trading in stolen goods and false documents and committing organised benefit fraud  on a huge scale, and sending the money to white supremacist groups, and 600 police arrested 57 of them on a list in a 100 yard area  after 18 months planning, would that be a problem?
> 
> I wouldn't  have thought so, and this is no different.
> 
> Criminal gangs. Don't give a shit what  ethnicity or nationality or religion or whatever they are, they needed to be stopped.



Course it would be a problem. Why the fuck wait 18 months for the problem to become so endemic that such a heavy handed swoop became necessary? Why not engage with the community before and tackle the obvious troublemakers.

This could have been dealt with so much more effectively> I'm not going to cheerlead what appears to be police inactivity followed by an antediluvian show of force.


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## Melinda (May 1, 2008)

smokedout said:


> meanwhile 10 minutes walk down the road most of the UK's heroin supply is quietly being distributed


Tell the police then.


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## Treacle Toes (May 1, 2008)

Melinda said:


> Tell the police then.



They already know.


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## smokedout (May 1, 2008)

Rutita1 said:


> They already know.



innit

sorry bk, fellow comrade an all that but if you think this was some heroic act to drive out organised crime then you're deluding yourself

there really isnt much money in nicked mobile phones


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## lighterthief (May 1, 2008)

smokedout said:


> sorry bk, fellow comrade an all that but if you think this was some heroic act to drive out organised crime then you're deluding yourself


What do you think the motive behind the police action was?


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## lenny101 (May 1, 2008)

Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but I have just moved into a flat on Blackstock Road and it seems alright so far. I have lived in far more dodgy areas in London. I don't want to read the thread just in case it makes me scared to go out at night.


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## sal64lon (May 2, 2008)

sally_sally said:


> Hi sal, whats it like now from a shop keepers point of view. Is it still quiet? When I walk down the road it seems quiet now but I am not there late at night.
> 
> Have the people who were causing trouble ventured back yet?
> 
> Sal



Thanks all for your reply and especially to your post. My answer to you  is follow with some facts even maybe some people not agree with me or don’t believe me! However I only want to share it with you to understand sometimes police also made mistakes:


1)	We have had few meeting with local authority etc...  
2)	Today we met with one lawyer! 
3)	It seems so much harassment from police daily picking on the wrong people etc...(for example 2 days ago police asked one Algerian not come the area for 24 hours even the man not doing anything wrong at all and that’s not right in a free country like Great Britain!
4)	Police visited the Mediterranean coffee (@blackstock road) then asked some customers to leave if they are not a customers etc... (The owner of that coffee shop told me!)
5)	Police up n down in the road on their van asking any person for his ID name add...Etc...(That only for Algerian or for people  olive colour skin) This like the French way and some Algerian think all that do to the French President visit to The Area( in the same time and day and place of the raid!)
6)	Now the immigration goes each shop @ balckstock road area and checking for illegal immigrant workers! (Most time those people work to survive and not committing crimes etc. (the trouble makers are well known to police most of the are the younger one on their teen age...


7)	The business very dead and not busy and people are scared to come to the area for shopping and that make business more to come as most of our customers are Algerians.  
8)	When the police go to some shop like one shop, fix phones and computers,, the police on that day of the raid they took few items ( customers phones ipod left at that shop to be repaired…NORMALLY in any country when police took anything they should give a receipts but on this case nothing given and that make shop owner see it like rubbery (How come police not give any receipts of that they took from that shop!  is this right? Is this allowed in this country Law?
9)	They took some money from tills and count that as money laundry!! How come!  This is some points and many more we have to talk about it in other time 
10)	 the people who were causing trouble still walking free as shop owners  we know those people already and police know them but nothing done,

Thanks all for your reply


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## sal64lon (May 2, 2008)

lenny101 said:


> Sorry I haven't read the whole thread but I have just moved into a flat on Blackstock Road and it seems alright so far. I have lived in far more dodgy areas in London. I don't want to read the thread just in case it makes me scared to go out at night.




welcome To blackstock road , is not that bad only media make sound that way hope you will enjoy your stay


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## Badger Kitten (May 2, 2008)

smokedout said:


> innit
> 
> sorry bk, fellow comrade an all that but if you think this was some heroic act to drive out organised crime then you're deluding yourself
> 
> there really isnt much money in nicked mobile phones



It wasn't about mobile phones.

Sssssh....It was about funding extremist GIA-related activity, false documents, massive fraud and ultimately, terrorism


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## Badger Kitten (May 2, 2008)

There was a hard core criminal gang - well, actually, three - one Somali, two Algerian and they were into phones, drugs, stolen laptops and satnavs, forged documents ( passports, driving licences, new identities), credit card and benefit fraud  and ''raising money for the mujuhideen''.

They were using innocent Algerians, who have respectable businesses and have homes and families in the area as cover.

Which is a tragedy for the innocent Algerians living in the area.

But they had to be stopped.

There is a lot more going on than appears on the surface.


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## sal64lon (May 9, 2008)

hello People it seems since my last post everything  dead hehe Never mind! It will be a film soon at blackstock Road called London River for the french Algerian "Rachid Bouchareb" 
 and it will be realeased on Fab 2009 I think .....London River --->

Plot Synopsis 
Two strangers (Muslim and Christian) come to London to find their son and daughter who have been missing since the July 2005 bombings. They discover their children had been living together at the time of the attacks. (Variety)


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