# Teacher  training: Teach First?



## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

I'm thinking of a career change into teaching. My hand has been slightly forced by the Covid, but the more I look into it and talk to people the more I think it might genuinely be the right thing for me to do, and that I might possibly be good at it. There are a lot of routes in of course, and I'm talking to all the official people about the more usual UCAS ways... but I also applied for that Teach First programme (famously the subject of the TV show "Tough Young Teachers", ulp), which is kind of an intense course where you get 6 weeks training then are straight into a school (and probably quite a challenging school). On the TV show they are all young fresh graduates, whereas I am older and I already had one quite long career (there is absolutely no way I would have even considered this straight from university). I just wondered if anyone here had experience of Teach First... either doing it, or working with people who did it etc).


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

Haven't heard of teach first but I know people who are very happy doing schools direct which sounds like the same thing. 

2 factors to consider:

1. Money. What's your major? Music? There won't be a bursary attached to most subjects next year so if you've got rent to pay a salaried scheme may be a good idea.

2. PGCE. It's an actual post graduate qualification, particularly useful if you ever want to work abroad. Gives you a theoretical agle on your practice. But the college work side of it is a massive ballache.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao yout doing teacher training right? and SpookyFrank i think if i remember right?


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> Haven't heard of teach first but I know people who are very happy doing schools direct which sounds like the same thing.
> 
> 2 factors to consider:
> 
> ...


sorry cross posted. My subject is maths... so there are a few salaried courses available on UCAS as well as this route....


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> maomao yout doing teacher training right? and SpookyFrank i think if i remember right?


I'm doing a PGCE at UEL though am currently on compassionate leave. Feel free to ask anything specific.. There are also a tonne of fully trained and professional teachers on these boards who are all very helpful people.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> sorry cross posted. My subject is maths... so there are a few salaried courses available on UCAS as well as this route....


24k bursary for doing a PGCE. You want to make sure you're getting more than that on a salaried scheme. Bearing in mind you pay tax on a salary and not on a bursary.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> I'm doing a PGCE at UEL though am currently on compassionate leave. Feel free to ask anything specific.. There are also a tonne of fully trained and professional teachers on these boards who are all very helpful people.


thanks! I've got quite a lot of teacher friends and all my family are teachers, teachers are always awesome people ime.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> 24k bursary for doing a PGCE. You want to make sure you're getting more than that on a salaried scheme. Bearing in mind you pay tax on a salary and not on a bursary.


ahh interesting, that is a really good point.... A PGCE is 1 or 2 years, and is a full time course but with in school contact time, is that right?


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> ahh interesting.... A PGCE is 1 or 2 years, and is a full time course but with in school contact time, is that right?


1 year unless you do part time. Evn if you do part time I think they try to get you to do it in a year and a half, doesn't have to be two years. And depending on covid situation should be starting in schools within a few weeks of starting training. Some bright spark at UEL decided to hold back placements till after half term to allow the covid situation to 'improve' and most of us ended up losing weeks to isolation orders. In a normal year it's mostly actual teaching.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

I hadn't really considered doing a PGCE with a bursary, I'd assumed I'd need to do some kind of work/learn on the job scheme, so this is really useful thanks...

My initial thought was primary, but the Teach First primary places were full up, and then once I started thinking about secondary it has kind of started to appeal more and more. it does sound like a really intense course, but it is all about levelling up education in low income areas and inclusivity and all sorts of things that really appeal to me. Even though you probably earn no more money than just getting a bursary to study, for maths anyway...


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

The drop out rates from teach first are a lot higher than the traditional route - only 40% of them stick at it, it's much higher via a PGCE - you just can't learn the necessary skills in their programme so it's much more of a sink or swim situation. 

Mrs B's area of research is this kind of stuff, and she reckons that it's basically bullshit, and part of various attempts by the government to undermine the teaching profession and privatise the sector. Do a PGCE.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

I did an FE orientated PGCE but for us it was 2 or 3 days teaching and 2 days of uni stuff for the first half of the year and then 3 or 4 days teaching and 1 day of uni stuff for the second half (If i remember correctly)
My numbers might be a little mixed up as I was also continuing to teach at my normal job centre training workplace while also  doing some stuff at a regular college (I wanted a placement to see what FE was like outside my bubble)

I found things easy but that was because I had already had some  experience  and  I come from a family of teachers.  
I think  doing a compulsory education leveled PGCE would be a lot harder due to  all the  behaviour management stuff. 
It's not  that  you don't have behaviour management  in FE it's  just  I managed to  get lucky  and  not have to deal with much of it until a few years back.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The drop out rates from teach first are a lot higher than the traditional route - only 40% of them stick at it, it's much higher via a PGCE - you just can't learn the necessary skills in their programme so it's much more of a sink or swim situation.
> 
> Mrs B's area of research is this kind of stuff, and she reckons that it's basically bullshit, and part of various attempts by the government to undermine the teaching profession and privatise the sector. Do a PGCE.


Interesting.... none of the other routes into teaching advisers ever have much to say about it! But, I have also seen really glowing reports from people who've actually done it.... well, I'm definitely going to apply for as many routes as possible, so as not to rule them out too early. Just I already passed the application stage of Teach First, next stage is an all-day live assessment.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I hadn't really considered doing a PGCE with a bursary, I'd assumed I'd need to do some kind of work/learn on the job scheme, so this is really useful thanks...
> 
> My initial thought was primary, but the Teach First primary places were full up, and then once I started thinking about secondary it has kind of started to appeal more and more. it does sound like a really intense course, but it is all about levelling up education in low income areas and inclusivity and all sorts of things that really appeal to me. Even though you probably earn no more money than just getting a bursary to study, for maths anyway...


Just to clarify, a PGCE _is_ on the job training. You wouldn't spend much time at uni at all. If I wasn't off I would currently be working a five day week teaching (online admittedly but that's not because it's a pgce).  Unless someone decides to send you to a posh bit of Essex (as happened with me) you'll be teaching at a school local to you. Also, if you do it at a very liberal school (like UEL) there will be plenty of practical stuff on inclusivity, decolonising the curriculum etc.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I did an FE orientated PGCE but for us it was 2 or 3 days teaching and 2 days of uni stuff for the first half of the year and then 3 or 4 days teaching and 1 day of uni stuff for the second half (If i remember correctly)
> My numbers might be a little mixed up as I was also continuing to teach at my normal job centre training workplace while also  doing some stuff at a regular college (I wanted a placement to see what FE was like outside my bubble)
> 
> I found things easy but that was because I had already had some  experience  and  I come from a family of teachers.
> ...


Yeah I'd definitely not be doing FE, I'm between primary and secondary....


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2021)

Just the name Teach First ain’t right as it implies teachers won’t stay in the profession, and just use it as a stepping stone to a more financially rewarding career


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> The drop out rates from teach first are a lot higher than the traditional route - only 40% of them stick at it, it's much higher via a PGCE - you just can't learn the necessary skills in their programme so it's much more of a sink or swim situation.
> 
> Mrs B's area of research is this kind of stuff, and she reckons that it's basically bullshit, and part of various attempts by the government to undermine the teaching profession and privatise the sector. Do a PGCE.


Sounds about right. Give you just about enough to get you going  but  also  little enough  to  not  have to pay you the full rate. 
Whenever I did cover for secondary  I would only be given cover supervisor rates instead of teaching rates  as I didn't have QTS (as I was FE)

While I appreciate  the idea of opening up teaching  to let subject specialists  who don't  have a degree  or teaching qualifications still contribute  I find  what happens on the ground is  they  use this as an excuse  to pay you less  and  move figures around on the spreadsheet to make themselves look better.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Just the name Teach First ain’t right as it implies teachers won’t stay in the profession, and just use it as a stepping stone to a more financially rewarding career


It is just the first bit of good job news I have had in about year, passing that application stage, so I felt a bit happy and excited about it.


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## Thora (Jan 13, 2021)

I did a pgce with a bursary - £9k and no fees.  Childcare grant too.

There’s a lot of teaching experience on the course, three placements and by my third one I think you’re supposed to be teaching 70%.  Though in practice I did 100% in my 3rd placement as the teacher was also SENCO and was so pleased to have someone to cover


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> Just the name Teach First ain’t right as it implies teachers won’t stay in the profession, and just use it as a stepping stone to a more financially rewarding career


that's explicitly the point of the programme


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

Thora said:


> I did a pgce with a bursary - £9k and no fees.  Childcare grant too.
> 
> There’s a lot of teaching experience on the course, three placements and by my third one I think you’re supposed to be teaching 70%.  Though in practice I did 100% in my 3rd placement as the teacher was also SENCO and was so pleased to have someone to cover


Yeah, you get 85% of childcare costs covered as a full time student and can get a student parent grant (just under two grand). I even get an adult dependant grant as wife not working.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Thora said:


> I did a pgce with a bursary - £9k and no fees.  Childcare grant too.
> 
> There’s a lot of teaching experience on the course, three placements and by my third one I think you’re supposed to be teaching 70%.  Though in practice I did 100% in my 3rd placement as the teacher was also SENCO and was so pleased to have someone to cover


I think if I understood right I can only get a bursary if it was secondary maths, there's no bursary for primary courses... but there are a few paid courses near me.


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

you don't want to teach primary anyway, secondary is where it's at. teenagers are wild.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

If I did teach first I wouldn't leave to be a manager, I want to be like that Fisher King? No Dead Poets Society. Like him.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> it's basically bullshit, and part of various attempts by the government to undermine the teaching profession and privatise the sector. Do a PGCE.


Absolutely this. I had 2 TF trainees with me a couple of years ago. It did not go well. It can be done - 6 weeks and then teach - but ime it's hellish for all concerned. As a TF trainee, you basically get thrown at under-staffed schools; the majority in very challenging contexts. One of my trainees couldn't cope with being called a cunt all day (by the kids, not me); the other could do it but couldn't handle the workload, which is astronomical even if you know vaguely what you're doing and have a few years experience under your belt. I'm not a gatekeeper or whatever - I don't necessarily think you can't teach without qualifications - I've never seen it done effectively over a period of time though.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> you don't want to teach primary anyway, secondary is where it's at. teenagers are wild.


You're playing around with my LIFE here!


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

I worked with some Teach First teachers. Nice enough but with a kind of bright eyed zeal about them being specially selected to save the world, going wherever they were needed to sort everything out.

And the minute a better offer comes along, ta-ra, see you later

Basically seemed like they were in it more for themselves than the kids. Wrong way round.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> you don't want to teach primary anyway, secondary is where it's at. teenagers are wild.


🖕

Primary's where the real teaching happens.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Absolutely this. I had 2 TF trainees with me a couple of years ago. It did not go well.


with you as in, you taught in the same school?


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> I worked with some Teach First teachers. Nice enough but with a kind of bright eyed zeal about them being specially selected to save the world, going wherever they were needed to sort everything out.
> 
> And the minute a better offer comes along, ta-ra, see you later
> 
> Basically seemed like they were in it more for themselves than the kids. Wrong way round.


Well, that isn't me, obviously. It seems like a terrible idea for a fresh graduate to do, there's no way I would have considered it then.


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## Thora (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I think if I understood right I can only get a bursary if it was secondary maths, there's no bursary for primary courses... but there are a few paid courses near me.


It was a few years ago (2015) that I did mine, I don’t know what bursaries are available now.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2021)

I remember a Teach First lad trying to engage a year 9 English class in one of London’s most deprived areas and trying to explain metaphors or something by using the term off-piste ‘like when you go skiing, ya?’ He didn’t last long.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> with you as in, you taught in the same school?


I was their mentor. They were placements in my class.


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## chilango (Jan 13, 2021)

If all else is relatively equal do a PGCE. The Tories are desperate to teacher training being a postgrad uni thing so that's reason enough to pick that route in my book.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Thora said:


> It was a few years ago (2015) that I did mine, I don’t know what bursaries are available now.


yeh I was just thinking aloud sorry ha


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

I'm on a TF related programme at the moment, and someone I know is involved with recruitment for TF Maths. They really need Maths teachers so you don't have to be that good to get on. It's not as competitive as some other subjects. 

The acronyms, jargon and mnenomics are annoying me already though.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> I was their mentor. They were placements in my class.


Do you get them every year, or did they just get dropped in? I kind of thought schools developed a relationship with the scheme, and that they were getting people who already had a lot of work/community experience and so could actually do some good... have I been fooled by the mission statement, it sounds like?


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> If all else is relatively equal do a PGCE. The Tories are desperate to teacher training being a postgrad uni thing so that's reason enough to pick that route in my book.


Yeah I need to work out if the money side is equal, as I just can't afford a paid course.... not totally sure what your second sentence means is there a word missing sorry!


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> have I been fooled by the mission statement


yes.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Absolutely this. I had 2 TF trainees with me a couple of years ago. It did not go well. It can be done - 6 weeks and then teach - but ime it's hellish for all concerned. As a TF trainee, you basically get thrown at under-staffed schools; the majority in very challenging contexts. One of my trainees couldn't cope with being called a cunt all day (by the kids, not me); the other could do it but couldn't handle the workload, which is astronomical even if you know vaguely what you're doing and have a few years experience under your belt. I'm not a gatekeeper or whatever - I don't necessarily think you can't teach without qualifications - I've never seen it done effectively over a period of time though.


Even if you have done a full fat PGCE and have a little experience the first year or two is often a baptism of fire.


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

I'd be reluctant to stand in front of any class with six weeks training. Teaching takes a long time to learn. The best teachers never stop.


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## Thora (Jan 13, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Absolutely this. I had 2 TF trainees with me a couple of years ago. It did not go well. It can be done - 6 weeks and then teach - but ime it's hellish for all concerned. As a TF trainee, you basically get thrown at under-staffed schools; the majority in very challenging contexts. One of my trainees couldn't cope with being called a cunt all day (by the kids, not me); the other could do it but couldn't handle the workload, which is astronomical even if you know vaguely what you're doing and have a few years experience under your belt. I'm not a gatekeeper or whatever - I don't necessarily think you can't teach without qualifications - I've never seen it done effectively over a period of time though.


Tbf this sounds quite like the school I did my pgce placement in 🤣 I was the oldest teacher there iirc (even older than the Head) and I was 31/32!  Fortunately I was in reception and we were in a classroom apart from the main building so I (mostly) avoided anyone calling me a cunt


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Oh well back to the drawing board


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> maomao yout doing teacher training right? and SpookyFrank i think if i remember right?



Yes, I'm doing a uni-based PGCE though, not Teach First. We only got about eight weeks' training before being chucked into schools though and most of that online, and we got charged 9,250 quid in fees for that. The taught bit of the course was pretty good admittedly, but not nine grand's worth.


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

Thora said:


> Tbf this sounds quite like the school I did my pgce placement in 🤣 I was the oldest teacher there iirc (even older than the Head) and I was 31/32!  Fortunately I was in reception and we were in a classroom apart from the main building so I (mostly) avoided anyone calling me a cunt


Sounds like my school too  I've only seen the other teachers online and I thought they were all sixth formers...until I realise the school doesn't have a sixth form.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes, I'm doing a uni-based PGCE though, not Teach First. We only got about eight weeks' training before being chucked into schools though and most of that online, and we got charged 9,250 quid in fees for that. The taught bit of the course was pretty good admittedly, but not nine grand's worth.


mm so that isn't very different to the teach first scheme then as far as being thrown in at the deep end... was that partly cos of Covid or just how the course always is?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

miss direct said:


> The acronyms, jargon and mnenomics are annoying me already though.



Oh christ the acronyms. And they change all the time too. This year it's 'EAL' for kids whose first language is not English but it'll soon be something else. Also 'DSL' for Designated Safeguarding Lead...um in this context 'lead' is clearly an adjective and can't just be left hovering without a noun like that


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> mm so that isn't very different to the teach first scheme then as far as being thrown in at the deep end... was that partly cos of Covid or just how the course always is?



It's always like that. We get one day in college a month while on placement and two visits from a uni tutor but that's it. But tbh there's only so much theoretical stuff you can usefully do without practical teaching experience, and half of the theory goes straight out the window the second you get into an actual school anyway.


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> mm so that isn't very different to the teach first scheme then as far as being thrown in at the deep end... was that partly cos of Covid or just how the course always is?


Well, it doesn't stop once you start teaching. On my PGCE the teaching gradually replaced the course. At first the teaching hours felt like they were getting in the way of studying; by the end it felt like studying was getting in the easy of teaching.


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oh christ the acronyms. And they change all the time too. This year it's 'EAL' for kids whose first language is not English but it'll soon be something else. Also 'DSL' for Designated Safeguarding Lead...um in this context 'lead' is clearly an adjective and can't just be left hovering without a noun like that


EAL is at least logical. But "tracking", and eyes on me, and plomping or scatting or whatever are just pathetic gimmicks that distract from the content.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Oh christ the acronyms. And they change all the time too. This year it's 'EAL' for kids whose first language is not English but it'll soon be something else. Also 'DSL' for Designated Safeguarding Lead...um in this context 'lead' is clearly an adjective and can't just be left hovering without a noun like that


So the acronyms aren't specific to Teach First, they're just part of current teacher training?


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> So the acronyms aren't specific to Teach First, they're just part of current teacher training?


Yes and no. Teach First are realllly into them.


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

Just do a PGCE, it's fucking brilliant


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

miss direct said:


> EAL is at least logical. But "tracking", and eyes on me, and plomping or scatting or whatever are just pathetic gimmicks that distract from the content.



Yeah one of the teachers in my department uses 'SLANT' which is shut up, sit up straight, listen, 'track the speaker' and several other things rolled into one single barked command so as to get around the basic teaching rule of not giving kids multiple instructions all at once. 

Many kids, particularly ASD (yeah I know, another acronym) kids may well listen better when they're _not_ pointing their eyeballs directly at you, but never mind that eh?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Just do a PGCE, it's fucking brilliant



Unless you do it 2020-2021 in which case it's a fucking clown show


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Unless you do it 2020-2021 in which case it's a fucking clown show


Well, if you can get through this...


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Yeh I can imagine how frustrating it must be... who know if the next year will have it any better though?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> So the acronyms aren't specific to Teach First, they're just part of current teacher training?



Teaching generally is rank with acronyms. Many are there to cover up the fact that teachers are expected to keep more things in their heads at once than any mortal human possibly can. This isn't multiple letters each of which refers to a complex and subtle thing in its own right, it's just one simple word: _GRFKUFFLD. _


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

I probably sound a bit grumpy about teacher training, but the truth is I'm enjoying it despite all the hassles and I'm currently just very sad not to be in my placement school every day because it's a really nice place.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

AfL and BfL really piss me off.


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

I know the a one but whats the b one?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

I think having a PGCE will pay off more in the long run. It's what people will ask about and not having one will limit opportunities and wage brackets . 

Teach first may get you into the classroom sooner but  what do they guarantee by the end? I can easily see people being shunted into a TA position .

Also what is the route from that to QTS?


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> AfL and BfL really piss me off.



AfL in particular is widely misused. Testing is not 'for learning' at all. There is such a thing as formative assessment but standardised testing is very definitely not it.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

Ha! God I remember the whole ptlls/ctlls/dtlls thing.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

miss direct said:


> I know the a one but whats the b one?


Behaviour for learning. You didn't 'shoosh' them, you 'made use of BfL techniques'


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I think having a PGCE will pay off more in the long run. It's what people will ask about and not having one will limit opportunities and wage brackets .
> 
> Teach first may get you into the classroom sooner but  what do they guarantee by the end? I can easily see people being shunted into a TA position .
> 
> Also what is the route from that to QTS?


the qualifications from teach first are "NQS" (newly qualified status) at the end of the 1st year, " Postgraduate Diploma in Education (PGDE), worth double the credits of a PGCE" at end of 2 years with the option of a Masters in the 3rd year. Have I been fooled by the terminology again? It made it sound like that was a higher qualification than a PGCE....


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

It's a scheme conceived and run by a Mckinsey management consultant to siphon off money from the state. Carpet baggers.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I probably sound a bit grumpy about teacher training, but the truth is I'm enjoying it despite all the hassles and I'm currently just very sad not to be in my placement school every day because it's a really nice place.


thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> It's a scheme conceived and run by a Mckinsey management consultant to siphon off money from the state. Carpet baggers.


I don't understand this, how is siphoning money off if people are teaching in state schools?


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I don't understand this, how is siphoning money off if people are teaching in state schools?


State schools are also increasingly schemes to siphon off money from the state too. The whole sector is being privatised - that's what the academisation programme is, that's what private providers like Teach First running _innovative_ training schemes is about.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I don't understand this, how is siphoning money off if people are teaching in state schools?


They are getting paid for training you but the training is teaching in a school.


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## Thora (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.


I don't think it's a scam or particularly easy to get accepted for (?) you just have to decide if it's the best route for you.  Especially as you have a specialism that would give you a bursary.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Do you get them every year, or did they just get dropped in? I kind of thought schools developed a relationship with the scheme, and that they were getting people who already had a lot of work/community experience and so could actually do some good... have I been fooled by the mission statement, it sounds like?


Hmmmm. If you're a teacher in a school under the cosh, you have very little choice - warm bodies who don't appear to be actual murderers could have a run at it. Also most things in teaching get "dropped in" on a daily basis. I think I got a day's notice before my TF'ers arrived. One of them was a postgrad, the other a TA from another school up the road. 

Also Iook at the state of this:


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## chilango (Jan 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> It's a scheme conceived and run by a Mckinsey management consultant to siphon off money from the state. Carpet baggers.



...and to remove trainee teachers from the influence of nefarious Marxist academics in the University.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.



The bureacracy and bullshit are deathly but working with kids is great.

I get confused between Teach First and Schools Direct tbh. But I do think a uni/college PGCE is the best route. If nothing else the level of support is better, and there's more scaffolding of what you're expected to do and when. I don't know what your employment/experience background is but I got onto a PGCE science course at a good university with no science-related employment history at all and just a few years of working with kids in non-school settings.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

I mean it sounds like every route in has its own amount of shit... but surely if you go into it with the right attitude you might end up doing some good somewhere?


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...and to remove trainee teachers from the influence of nefarious Marxist academics in the University.


I was taught a course by this guy when i was at university! University suspends lecturer in racism row who praised BNP

So they're not all nefarious Marxists.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I mean it sounds like every route in has its own amount of shit... but surely if you go into it with the right attitude you might end up doing some good somewhere?


Aw mate, I feel like everyone's pissed on your fireworks. It's not your fault or a reflection on you that the scheme itself stinks. Sorry if you've answered this but is there a reason why you can't do a PGCE?


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2021)

SMT/SLT always got me - make your minds up! I called them The Mafia at my last school


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.



I hope teaching works out for you. When does the Teach First course start?


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Aw mate, I feel like everyone's pissed on your fireworks. It's not your fault or a reflection on you that the scheme itself stinks. Sorry if you've answered this but is there a reason why you can't do a PGCE?


It would depend on money; I definitely need it to be funded and paid, which the Teach First very clearly is, whereas it isn't so clear for PGCE courses. I think if I definitely decided on secondary maths it would mean I should be able to get a bursary but I'm not certain.... but if I decided I wanted to do primary, then I'd have to get on one of the salaried courses for sure.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> AfL in particular is widely misused. Testing is not 'for learning' at all. There is such a thing as formative assessment but standardised testing is very definitely not it.


Most ime don't use AfL to refer to standardised testing but to any observations - written or verbal - made by/about a child to inform their learning. (Could be a primary/secondary thing though.)


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> SMT/SLT always got me - make your minds up! I called them The Mafia at my last school


Or the use of the above to refer to a single person. 'He's SLT' rather than 'he's on the SLT'. He's not a fucking team ffs.


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> It would depend on money; I definitely need it to be funded and paid, which the Teach First very clearly is, whereas it isn't so clear for PGCE courses. I think if I definitely decided on secondary maths it would mean I should be able to get a bursary but I'm not certain.... but if I decided I wanted to do primary, then I'd have to get on one of the salaried courses for sure.


Why might you not get the bursary? What's your degree in? I got a bursary to do English and don't have a degree in English. There are people with horrific degrees like marketing getting bursaries to do English. Don't know how it works with maths.


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## Sweet FA (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> Or the use of the above to refer to a single person. 'He's SLT' rather than 'he's on the SLT'. He's not a fucking team ffs.


He's a bellend generally.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

maomao said:


> Why might you not get the bursary? What's your degree in? I got a bursary to do English and don't have a degree in English. There are people with horrific degrees like marketing getting bursaries to do English. Don't know how it works with maths.


my degree is english, i got maths a-level A so I need to do a SKE course but I'm really naturally much better at maths I made a mistake picking the english degree... but anyway, I just don't know re: bursaries.... are you basically certain to get the bursary as long as you get a place on the course??


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## maomao (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> my degree is english, i got maths a-level A so I need to do a SKE course but I'm really naturally much better at maths I made a mistake picking the english degree... but anyway, I just don't know re: bursaries.... are you basically certain to get the bursary as long as you get a place on the course??


Ask a uni. I think so. There are certainly plenty of people with non-English degrees getting them but English - Maths is a big gap. But I think you're right if you didn't like the degree I doubt you'd like teaching it.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

I didn't mind the degree, I finished it and did ok, but I dont want to teach it. As I understand it a-level maths is high enough to teach secondary maths for most providers if you do a SKE.... def need to start contacting them to find all the peculiarities though.


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## nagapie (Jan 13, 2021)

So absolutely tons of the teachers at my school come from Teach First. It was totally conceived to get unqualified teachers into the classroom on the cheap and therefore undermine teachers' degrees (and keep them away from Marxist institutions). Most of the applicants are young and very middle class, many leave after a few years because teaching is hard.
But lots of them do become very good teachers and the most talented, clever and left leaning teacher in my school came via that route. Depends a lot on your school as to how good your training ends up being, it's mostly down to the department, but then I'd say the same about PGCEs. Teach First is massive, not going to go away so if I were you, I'd probably look for who was going to pay me the most money to train because you're a sought after Maths teacher and it will be the only time as a teacher you'll ever be able to be self-serving.


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## miss direct (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.


Oh I'm sorry, I don't want to put you off. It's not easy to get accepted, it's just easier to get onto Maths than primary, for example. For a more positive story, one of my friends did TF, she did her obligatory two years in a school in a not very nice part of the UK, then got a job at a very nice international school in Turkey.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> thank you for saying that... I really need a bit of encouragement at the moment tbh,  it is a bit harsh being told that the only good job news i had for about a year  is actually just a scam that is really easy to get accepted for.


sorry about that


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## chilango (Jan 13, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Oh I'm sorry, I don't want to put you off. It's not easy to get accepted, it's just easier to get onto Maths than primary, for example. For a more positive story, one of my friends did TF, she did her obligatory two years in a school in a not very nice part of the UK, then got a job at a very nice international school in Turkey.



I didn't even do my 'obligatory' two years before heading off to sunnier climes.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> the qualifications from teach first are "NQS" (newly qualified status) at the end of the 1st year, " Postgraduate Diploma in Education (PGDE), worth double the credits of a PGCE" at end of 2 years with the option of a Masters in the 3rd year. Have I been fooled by the terminology again? It made it sound like that was a higher qualification than a PGCE....


I may well be wrong about it as I have a limited knowledge about what is and isn't recognised. I just have had some experience of employers focusing on specific qualifications. 
Or the agencies who are hiring for positions.


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## Steel Icarus (Jan 13, 2021)

Nobody I think is trying to put you off or day you're wrong particularly rutabowa - just you know, eyes wide open and shit


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## gaijingirl (Jan 13, 2021)

I did a PGCE myself, but in my job one of my roles has been mentoring trainee teachers and leading on Teaching and Learning - including Teach First teachers.  I am not a fan of the programme.  I feel that Teach First students are a little bit "cannon-foddery".  I'm thinking of one very lovely student teacher in particular.  She arrived after her summer holiday "training camp", very idealistic into the school where I was working at the time, which had been described by the Daily Mail as the worst school in Britain.  She really struggled to the point of a breakdown - and this was despite a lot of support.  

In my opinion it also places a lot of pressure on staff who have to be there to support (and we all want to support but having a young person who has arrived with almost no training into a super-challenging environment is quite a strain on everyone.)  I'm not sure if it's the same now but it used to be very much sold as "you will go into these challenging schools with these shit older lefty teachers and save the youth and our future and you will be headteacher within 5 years". 

From what I have seen, TF typically go into challenging settings and in my experience some schools like to spend very little on their staffing and tend to over-hire TF etc with barely more experienced staff being asked to supervise/mentor.  

However, if you could find a half-decent school with a half-decent ITT programme it could be ok I guess.  Or if you are a particularly resilient person who can take short term shit to get your QTS and then move on somewhere, it could work.  I certainly wouldn't want to put you off going into teaching.  I think it's the best job in the world.


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## scifisam (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> my degree is english, i got maths a-level A so I need to do a SKE course but I'm really naturally much better at maths I made a mistake picking the english degree... but anyway, I just don't know re: bursaries.... are you basically certain to get the bursary as long as you get a place on the course??



Yes, definitely. A tax-free bursary, plus a student loan if you want, plus grants for your dependants (like your son), plus childcare costs. Financially it's probably better than TeachFirst.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> sorry about that


it's ok you weren't to know, I should maybe have just celebrated for a bit before posting on here. It is still good news.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

This has all been useful information anyway thanks.... more to think about.


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## gaijingirl (Jan 13, 2021)

Gosh... I've read the whole thread now and feel bad.  As a maths teacher you will be in huge demand and this will really work in your favour.  It's a fabulous job and I really hope you find the right route for you.


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> it's ok you weren't to know, I should maybe have just celebrated for a bit before posting on here. It is still good news.


best to go in knowing what's in store. I didn't become a teacher but spent a few years working closely with teachers in schools and I observed many lessons. At my first school, I was offered sponsorship (or whatever it's called ) by my school for one of these programmes, but I'd already seen enough to know it wasn't for me. I'd advise volunteering first and visiting more than one school just to observe lessons. If you think you can handle it after that, go for it.


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## rutabowa (Jan 13, 2021)

Orang Utan said:


> best to go in knowing what's in store. I didn't become a teacher but spent a few years working closely with teachers in schools and I observed many lessons. At my first school, I was offered sponsorship (or whatever it's called ) by my school for one of these programmes, but I'd already seen enough to know it wasn't for me. I'd advise volunteering first and visiting more than one school just to observe lessons. If you think you can handle it after that, go for it.


There no lesson observations allowed this year of course! I do have a lot more experience than eg graduates would do... like running workshops with kids etc... also been surrounded by teaching my whole life, as my parents both were and my sister an b-i-l are both really good inspiring teachers.... so I have a good idea what's involved... but that's still nothing like actually being in a classroom and doing it I'm sure! But, I have a good idea of what's involved.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> There no lesson observations allowed this year of course!



No lesson observations  of course! However  management  would like you to take part in learning reviews to  share best practices  and  offer feedback..... 

no pressure of course.....


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 13, 2021)

Sorry  being a bit cynical there.


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

nagapie said:


> So absolutely tons of the teachers at my school come from Teach First. It was totally conceived to get unqualified teachers into the classroom on the cheap and therefore undermine teachers' degrees (and keep them away from Marxist institutions). Most of the applicants are young and very middle class, many leave after a few years because teaching is hard.
> But lots of them do become very good teachers and the most talented, clever and left leaning teacher in my school came via that route. Depends a lot on your school as to how good your training ends up being, it's mostly down to the department, but then I'd say the same about PGCEs. Teach First is massive, not going to go away so if I were you, I'd probably look for who was going to pay me the most money to train because you're a sought after Maths teacher and it will be the only time as a teacher you'll ever be able to be self-serving.


Ahh this is very interesting and useful thank you...


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

Woo I just got an email with a (totally unrelated, outdoors) temp job offer for march and April, 2021 definitely looking slightly more optimistic than 2020


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

nagapie said:


> So absolutely tons of the teachers at my school come from Teach First. It was totally conceived to get unqualified teachers into the classroom on the cheap and therefore undermine teachers' degrees (and keep them away from Marxist institutions). Most of the applicants are young and very middle class, many leave after a few years because teaching is hard.
> But lots of them do become very good teachers and the most talented, clever and left leaning teacher in my school came via that route. Depends a lot on your school as to how good your training ends up being, it's mostly down to the department, but then I'd say the same about PGCEs. Teach First is massive, not going to go away so if I were you, I'd probably look for who was going to pay me the most money to train because you're a sought after Maths teacher and it will be the only time as a teacher you'll ever be able to be self-serving.


In your opinion does the PGDE you get at the end of the 2nd year of Teach First not carry the sane weight as a PGCE? They definitely imply it carries MORE weight, like it is almost a Masters.... but do you think it's a less useful qualification?


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## chilango (Jan 14, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> In your opinion does the PGDE you get at the end of the 2nd year of Teach First not carry the sane weight as a PGCE? They definitely imply it carries MORE weight, like it is almost a Masters.... but do you think it's a less useful qualification?



I think that a PGCE is the equivalent of 1/3 of a Masters (60 credits) whilst a PGDE would be 2/3 of a Masters (120 credits) meaning that were you to put these qualifications towards a Master's (though you'd need to check the regs carefully) the PGDE would put you closer to finishing.

The PGCE on the other hand remains a more "familiar" qualification. more people. More people are aware of it and what it means.

(Speaking as someone with a PGCE, a PGDip and a Master's - all unrelated!)


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I think that a PGCE is the equivalent of 1/3 of a Masters (60 credits) whilst a PGDE would be 2/3 of a Masters (120 credits) meaning that were you to put these qualifications towards a Master's (though you'd need to check the regs carefully) the PGDE would put you closer to finishing.
> 
> The PGCE on the other hand remains a more "familiar" qualification. more people. More people are aware of it and what it means.
> 
> (Speaking as someone with a PGCE, a PGDip and a Master's - all unrelated!)


Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?

I watched the BBC tv series where they follow 4 students fresh out of university on the scheme last night. On the one hand it makes you hate the whole thing, as obviously the students they picked to follow are entertainingly extremely posh and young and clueless, to make good tv. On the other hand, it made me think "well I am obviously nothing like these guys, so maybe I could do more good than them, and maybe the nature of the course has changed over the years since." (as a lot of the application questions I did seemed specifically designed to filter arrogant people like that out of the course).

I definitely made a decision to try for a secondary maths PGCE course with bursary... but I'll still do the teach first second stage interview, it sounds intense with a lot of practical work so that can only be a good experience, plus I've got few more questions to ask them now.


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## chilango (Jan 14, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?



We'll...it's not quite that straightforward!

PGCert, PGDip and Masters are all "Level 7" qualifications.

The main advantage the PGDip has over a PGCert is that is that if you wanted to do a Master's and your PGDip credits were accepted towards it (not always the case, you'd need to check in any specific case) you'd have less work to do to gain the Masters.

The main advantage a PGCE has is that people know what it is. It is an established credential. This may change.

There will also be pockets of snobbery about which institution issues the bit of paper in each case. Some Universities are viewed, by some, as having higher status than others. This can - occasionally - matter when job hunting.

Beyond this I'm not sure there's much material difference between the two bits of paper tbh. I think your choice should be more about which route offers the most suitable (financially, training wise, support wise, kniwled/experience wise. logistically etc etc)  for you in your particular circumstances.


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## chilango (Jan 14, 2021)

rutabowa, I think my brotherightve have done secondary maths via Teach First. I've asked him.


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> rutabowa, I think my brotherightve have done secondary maths via Teach First. I've asked him.


OHH that would be amazing if you have a chance! What I am lacking at the moment is a perspective from anyone who has actually done it, apart from internet reviews (which generally seem to rave about the experience, whilst also emphasising how tough and intense it is).


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## nagapie (Jan 14, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Ok... so the suggestion made earlier that Teach First would leave me less academically qualified wasn't correct, and the opposite is actually true?
> 
> I watched the BBC tv series where they follow 4 students fresh out of university on the scheme last night. On the one hand it makes you hate the whole thing, as obviously the students they picked to follow are entertainingly extremely posh and young and clueless, to make good tv. On the other hand, it made me think "well I am obviously nothing like these guys, so maybe I could do more good than them, and maybe the nature of the course has changed over the years since." (as a lot of the application questions I did seemed specifically designed to filter arrogant people like that out of the course).
> 
> I definitely made a decision to try for a secondary maths PGCE course with bursary... but I'll still do the teach first second stage interview, it sounds intense with a lot of practical work so that can only be a good experience, plus I've got few more questions to ask them now.


I think chilango has answered that better than I could. I doubt it would matter to any state UK school as they're all short of maths teachers and would interview you on merit. I'm not sure how it works with international schools but once again, I think any teaching degree with experience from the UK would be fine.
They might not want you at the posh schools in the UK but I imagine that not having a Maths degree is already likely to take you off their lists. And you know, being a commoner and not a Tory.


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## chilango (Jan 14, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> OHH that would be amazing if you have a chance! What I am lacking at the moment is a perspective from anyone who has actually done it, apart from internet reviews (which generally seem to rave about the experience, whilst also emphasising how tough and intense it is).



He did Schools Direct, here's what he has to say...



> Schools Direct...the qualification was QTS.
> 
> We did work alongside a University to get a PGCE but not all Schools Direct courses offer that.
> 
> ...


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I think chilango has answered that better than I could. I doubt it would matter to any state UK school as they're all short of maths teachers and would interview you on merit. I'm not sure how it works with international schools but once again, I think any teaching degree with experience from the UK would be fine.
> They might not want you at the posh schools in the UK but I imagine that not having a Maths degree is already likely to take you off their lists. And you know, being a commoner and not a Tory.


as far as I've been able to work out, internationally PGDE is just as recognised as a PGCE, if not more so (I am checking this with my FIL who teaches in mexico though)... and yes you are correct in thinking I have no interest whatsoever in private/posh schools so that def isn't an issue!


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> He did Schools Direct, here's what he has to say...


Thank you very much. I'll def be asking in the interview if the PGDE is a definite outcome at the end of the 2 Teach First years; it def sounds like it is on their website, but I also def don't want to assume that. But for the rest of this week I'm concentrating on looking at PGCE courses.


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## Bears (Jan 14, 2021)

I've just got a job as an Academic Mentor for Teach First to help kids catch up after COVID. 

I'm not sure how it's going to work yet. It seems pretty ludicrous that you're considered qualified to teach anybody after 2 weeks of internet training. But I have some teaching experience and lots of experience with kids. 

I think I'd to teach primary after this and I'm using this job to find out if I'd like it, or if I'd prefer another role in school. 

I'll need a funded option and I haven't found any bursaries for primary, so my options are Teach First, Schools Direct or a SCITT. Please correct me if there is a bursary for primary, I'd love to be wrong about that.


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## rutabowa (Jan 14, 2021)

Bears said:


> I'll need a funded option and I haven't found any bursaries for primary, so my options are Teach First, Schools Direct or a SCITT. Please correct me if there is a bursary for primary, I'd love to be wrong about that.


Unfortunately I think you're right sorry, no bursaries for primary at all. And as far as Teach First goes the primary course is full already for this year, so if you apply next year make sure you do it early as it seems to fill up quickets. BUT if you do the course search here, then you can filter by "salaried course only" and there were quite a few salaried primary courses (at least near me): Find postgraduate teacher training courses

good luck with the mentoring! when's that starting?


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## Bears (Jan 15, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Unfortunately I think you're right sorry, no bursaries for primary at all. And as far as Teach First goes the primary course is full already for this year, so if you apply next year make sure you do it early as it seems to fill up quickets. BUT if you do the course search here, then you can filter by "salaried course only" and there were quite a few salaried primary courses (at least near me): Find postgraduate teacher training courses
> 
> good luck with the mentoring! when's that starting?



My nearest one is 26 miles away.  I think I might have to persuade a school to get involved.  That might work.  I'm quite persuasive 

I'm completing my training today and going into the school on Monday.  I'm really happy about the school - I know that they do some great work and I can learn a lot from them.


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## rutabowa (Jan 20, 2021)

Spent a long time filling out the UCAS application, only to ring up my top 3 choices and find out that without a maths degree they would just immediately discard my application for secondary maths... luckily the 4th call (and every call so far after that) had better news. Lesson is: definitely speak to the course providers before you submit the UCAS application (I haven't submitted it yet so all is well, so far.... was just an unpleasant half an hour where I thought all my plans were shattered, which they would have been if I had submitted it as it was originally).


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## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

Here's another thing to bear in mind, from what I could work out: I understand what people are saying about the salary from Teach First or other salaried courses: although it's true that for secondary maths you get a bursary that is almost the same amount of money, and salaried course get tax deducted, with the salaried courses you also get tuition fees paid, whereas with a bursary you have to pay the tuition fees (about £9000) out of them (or get a loan). So you do end up with quite a lot less money, all told.


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## nagapie (Jan 21, 2021)

Will Teach First accept you without a Maths degree, it's quite competitive I believe?


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## chilango (Jan 21, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Will Teach First accept you without a Maths degree, it's quite competitive I believe?



None of the Maths teachers I know have Maths degrees.


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## nagapie (Jan 21, 2021)

chilango said:


> None of the Maths teachers I know have Maths degrees.


I do know there's a massive shortage so it's more flexible. I assume you mean TF is also flexible in this way


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## chilango (Jan 21, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I do know there's a massive shortage so it's more flexible. I assume you mean TF is also flexible in this way



I don't know. But it's a reason for optimism maybe?


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## nagapie (Jan 21, 2021)

chilango said:


> I don't know. But it's a reason for optimism maybe?


I was thinking it would just be a yes or no answer as to whether they accept you without a Maths degree. After that I'm assuming it's more about the interview process.


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## scifisam (Jan 21, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Here's another thing to bear in mind, from what I could work out: I understand what people are saying about the salary from Teach First or other salaried courses: although it's true that for secondary maths you get a bursary that is almost the same amount of money, and salaried course get tax deducted, with the salaried courses you also get tuition fees paid, whereas with a bursary you have to pay the tuition fees (about £9000) out of them (or get a loan). So you do end up with quite a lot less money, all told.



OTOH you get a dependants' grant and pay no council tax for that year.


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## maomao (Jan 21, 2021)

scifisam said:


> OTOH you get a dependants' grant and pay no council tax for that year.


Also 85% off childcare (including after school clubs and whatever).


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## miss direct (Jan 21, 2021)

Yes, you can definitely get on without a Maths degree.


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## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

nagapie said:


> I was thinking it would just be a yes or no answer as to whether they accept you without a Maths degree. After that I'm assuming it's more about the interview process.


Well they've got my application and given me an interview so I guess it can't be completely necessary... but I am kind of thinking of it more as experience for my UCAS interviews now. If nothing else that means I'm not going to be as nervous about the teach first interview.

IME GCSE and A-Level maths are one thing, and then degree level maths is a whole other level that wouldn't necessarily be useful for teaching GCSE. It is the kind of shit that makes people go crazy because it proves beyond doubt that existence itself is totally impossible so I am kind of glad I didn't do a degree in it, people who do maths degrees look scarred.


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## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Yes, you can definitely get on without a Maths degree.


For sure, but there are def a few universities (eg UCL and Kings College) that will just throw your (UCAS) application in the bin if you don't have a degree that is at least quite a bit maths related (and mine isn't at all).


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## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

scifisam said:


> OTOH you get a dependants' grant and pay no council tax for that year.


Yep I'll have to look into that... I suspect family circumstances mean at least 1 of those won't work for me, at least right now who knows by september, but I'm sure there might be other bits it is possible to claim


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## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

chilango said:


> None of the Maths teachers I know have Maths degrees.


oh that is surprising . I guess a lot of them might have done degrees where there were maths modules etc though?


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## miss direct (Jan 21, 2021)

Weren't you asking about getting onto Teach First, or did I misunderstand?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 21, 2021)

When I did my PGCE the person i knew who was planning on doing maths had a degree in accounting.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jan 21, 2021)

We did also have to prove that we could support English and Maths at level 2 as they needed to be embeded in what ever you teach.

We were supposed to also have to do that for IT  but it looked like nobody knew what  to do for that.

Which is still the case it looks like  as  practically none of the students I enroll have GCSE IT nowadays only some basic ECDL.
Not the end of the world when i'm requiting for Creative Media  but  a bit of an issues when trying to recruit for Level 3 IT.


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Weren't you asking about getting onto Teach First, or did I misunderstand?



I think it's a more general point about maths teachers


----------



## chilango (Jan 21, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> oh that is surprising . I guess a lot of them might have done degrees where there were maths modules etc though?



My wife is a secondary maths teacher. She was trained as a Primary teacher via a BA Ed.
My aforementioned brother's degree is in Engineering iirc.

Just a couple of examples.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

miss direct said:


> Weren't you asking about getting onto Teach First, or did I misunderstand?


You are right there was a question specifically about Teach First and maths degrees, and like you say you don't need one... I did still get an application accepted and an interview to come for that (without a maths degree).... But also everyone told me to do a PGCE instead so I'm also applying through there, so I just added that bit  about certain universities not accepting you without a maths degree on, because I only just found it out (so it would have been a waste of time for me/anyone to put them in my choices in my situation)


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> When I did my PGCE the person i knew who was planning on doing maths had a degree in accounting.





chilango said:


> My wife is a secondary maths teacher. She was trained as a Primary teacher via a BA Ed.
> My aforementioned brother's degree is in Engineering iirc.


I mean accounting and engineering degrees will both have had significant amounts of maths in! So they don't really count as examples.... BA Ed though, yes that is an example.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 21, 2021)

I'm sure I remember one of my a-level maths teachers even saying that A-Level was basically as technically hard as it gets in the subject, just degrees expand it and go off into more detail... Im sure that's not totally true but something like that.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 26, 2021)

well the ucas application is in..... the die has been cast.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 3, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Will Teach First accept you without a Maths degree, it's quite competitive I believe?


Further to this: I had the second round Teach First interview yesterday, and it was really really intense and tough BUT virtually zero about the subject itself (obv there will be a subject knowledge test later if I happen to get past this round, but I think that is unlikely tbh). Their first priority is def their general "key competencies", then if you meet them it kind of depends on what their linked schools need, as I understand it.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 9, 2021)

oof I got offered a place on Teach First, that was not part of the plan... good tho of course


----------



## nagapie (Feb 9, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> oof I got offered a place on Teach First, that was not part of the plan... good tho of course


Do not underestimate the power of Maths. You must have done a good interview too.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 9, 2021)

nagapie said:


> Do not underestimate the power of Maths. You must have done a good interview too.


Yep you called it right before (not the interview, the maths). Bit weird to get this far and so far haven't even been asked if I can do times tables, but I've got the online subject test still to do so will find out if my a-level revision did the trick. I thought the interview went terribly* ha, but I was pretty prepared.

* ("humility" is a "key competency")


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 10, 2021)

mm it is coming up to decision time... I keep changing my mind. The plus points of teach first are: more money in the first year (I worked this out, in my circumstances it will end up a fair bit more... and a definite job in the second year. Also there is a 5 week intensive summer course. But then straight into classroom in september. 

Whereas the university based course I would get 4-5 weeks of tuition, but starting in September... but then still be in a school placement by October! So it is actually in at the deep end almost more extremely than TF? Unless I missed something.... I guess it must be less intense, but it is impossible to find anyone who has done both to compate them, obviously.


----------



## Sweet FA (Mar 10, 2021)

Any course you do, you'll get thrown into a classroom pretty quickly. All teacher training is intense


----------



## Thora (Mar 10, 2021)

I'd go for more money.


----------



## Hollis (Mar 10, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> mm it is coming up to decision time... I keep changing my mind. The plus points of teach first are: more money in the first year (I worked this out, in my circumstances it will end up a fair bit more... and a definite job in the second year. Also there is a 5 week intensive summer course. But then straight into classroom in september.
> 
> Whereas the university based course I would get 4-5 weeks of tuition, but starting in September... but then still be in a school placement by October! So it is actually in at the deep end almost more extremely than TF? Unless I missed something.... I guess it must be less intense, but it is impossible to find anyone who has done both to compate them, obviously.



Isnt' Teach First sometimes good if you're wanting to climb up 'the greasy pole'..


----------



## scifisam (Mar 10, 2021)

If it definitely is more money and you already have a place, it would be sensible to take it. There's no guarantee you'd get onto a PGCE anyway.

We had teach first people in some of our PGCE classes and TBH it didn't sound like they were all that much more in at the deep end than we were. They were annoying - they definitely saw themselves as better than us PGCE types - but they were treated like that too, for some reason.


----------



## Nikkormat (Mar 11, 2021)

As others have said, once you're in the classroom it will be intense, so I'd go the route that offers more cash. There will be days, and weeks, where you feel shit, but stick with it and it will get better. 

I did an FE-specific PGDE eleven years ago, and in retrospect it was one of the best decisions I've ever made.


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 20, 2021)

I did get one offer for a university based PGCE, but the only course I got an offer for i really wasn't v impressed by the interview tbh, it was a bit chaotic and they hardly asked me anything so felt a bit like they would take anyone... and it was still only a month or so in university before being put on a school. Whereas tf have been really responsive and given lots of detailed feedback and stuff to work on already. As well as the money side. So decision made I guess. (It is still a PGCE route, well PGDE but that is exactly the same level, just a bit longer)


----------



## rutabowa (Mar 21, 2021)

I like this paper about the "Solidarity Assimilation Method" in Brazil, it kind of puts my concerns about the programme into words: (PDF) Mathematics education's solidarity assimilation methodology

" One can say that Baldino and Tânia anticipated what is now known as the “social turn” in mathematics education. Studies within this vein emphasize the importance of considering how what is happening in a classroom depends on the entire social, cultural and political frame. These studies highlight the importance of “social interactions” and the role of “culture” when learning mathematics; they also raise broader issues of equity and social justice in accessing mathematics education (Gutièrrez, 2013; Sriramann & English, 2010). *A problem with these studies however, is their disavowal of the economy when addressing the question of failure in school mathematics* (Pais, 2014). 
Despite the diversity of studies animating the social turn, *what binds them is the rejection of a central organizing principle, which takes into account how schools manifest the totality that capitalism is today*. In a postmodern research-world, it is not easy for researchers to posit capital as the “concrete universal” of our times (Baldino & Cabral, 2018). To do so, will imply a questioning of not only the structures and actors that exercise damaging influence on school mathematics (governmental policies, discourses, etc.) but *also a questioning of our own role worsening what we intend to improve* (Pais, 2015). "


----------



## extra dry (Mar 28, 2021)

Yes try observing a class or three. Some good, some painfully dry and nerve racking


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

Err this is quite hard work


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 20, 2021)

Yeah. Can be.

Especially  September through December.

If you make it to January you're doing well.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Err this is quite hard work


This is always the hardest, darkest, longest term.
Make sure you have a proper break at half term.


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Err this is quite hard work


Solidarity mate. It is.


----------



## maomao (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Err this is quite hard work


How many hours a week you teaching? Inner city hellhole? What's hard work, behaviour management or planning?

I've been sent to a chain academy in the Essex borders to finish after extending. Odd place but kids seem lovely.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

I will finish it don't worry.... it is just going from never having taught to 16 hours of full class lessons on my own is a bit of a shock. You do have to get better at it quite fast tho


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

maomao said:


> How many hours a week you teaching? Inner city hellhole? What's hard work, behaviour management or planning?
> 
> I've been sent to a chain academy in the Essex borders to finish after extending. Odd place but kids seem lovely.


yeh 16 hours a week lesson time, inner city but not hell hole I wouldn't say, it is a really good department and v supportive just soooo busy.

I actually have 3 classes I really like doing but then 1 I have no control over whatsoever I don't feel like. Tomorrow is another day though.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 20, 2021)

Yeah.  Baptism of fire innit.

I got it easy and started off doing adult education in a niche subject.

My first year teaching nothing but 16-18s with zero quals  was quite the experience.

but  very true about half term.


----------



## maomao (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> 16 hours a week lesson time,


Fucking hell thats loads!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 20, 2021)

maomao said:


> Fucking hell thats loads!


Yeah. that's over a .6  

wait is that full time teaching or as part of your training?


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

It is training, but also straight into teaching; that is how the teach first programme works, 80% of full timetable from the start. 2 of the classes are same year so same lessons, but the other 2 aren't.


----------



## maomao (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> It is training, but also straight into teaching; that is how the teach first programme works, 80% of full timetable from the start. 2 of the classes are same year so same lessons, but the other 2 aren't.


How much of the lesson plan do they give you? 

Wouldn't have worked for me. I didn't know my subject well enough when I started.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

Basic lesson plans are all given for now, so they just need to be adjusted to fit and to teach... and print materials etc. It varies how much needs adding and changing though.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 20, 2021)

If it is secondary I'd have guessed with a set curriculum there is some heafty scheme of work guidance?


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I will finish it don't worry.... it is just going from never having taught to 16 hours of full class lessons on my own is a bit of a shock. You do have to get better at it quite fast tho


Blimey. I would just crumble.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 20, 2021)

I had to have a little laugh to myself earlier as a fellow Success Coach was complaining about being too busy, what with having 10 hours a week including three hours teaching timetabled. 

I have 24, 12 teaching

Lol


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

Yes and with maths what gets taught is relatively stable from year to year... it is not like I have to teach a totally new set text that I never read before like in english.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Blimey. I would just crumble.


i will reply to yr message soon, that date sounds good tho. just lying down


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 20, 2021)

Fuck. Me. I can't foresee any problems at all with that set-up.

As Cats' says rutabowa; make sure you get breaks somewhere & basically be all straight edge til October half term.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> i will reply to yr message soon, that date sounds good tho. just lying down


Hey, don't worry.  I wasn't stalking. This just popped up.  I thought you might have broken your phone. Now I know. I don't  feel anywhere near as bad about my work demands now.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Sep 20, 2021)

Sweet FA said:


> Fuck. Me. I can't foresee any problems at all with that set-up.
> 
> As Cats' says rutabowa; make sure you get breaks somewhere & basically be all straight edge til October half term.



. . . And yeah I also recommend straight edgin' . So tempting not to though.


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 20, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> . . . And yeah I also recommend straight edgin' . So tempting not to though.


I hear you. I've played it both ways. SE wins the day.


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2021)

If you're struggling with the thought of straight edging it, rock up mid-week with a hangover. You won't drink on a school night ever again*

*not true. But it might put you off till half-term at least.


----------



## chilango (Sep 20, 2021)

...or watch "Another Round" for inspiration.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 20, 2021)

It usually sounds patronising from an older person, but teaching is a job that you get better at with experience.
All the bad experiences serve a purpose.
It is also one of the hardest and most stressful and physically exhausting jobs out there.
However when it goes well very few jobs can beat it, but when it goes badly you will think any other job is better than that kind of suffering.
My only tip is the word 'do'. If a stranger comes into your lesson and asks a student what are they supposed to be doing and they say they 'don't know' then you're failing, even if they say they're meant to be sitting up straight with their arms folded facing the teacher that represents success (even if they're not doing it, at least they know what should be happening).
Final tip, you're unlikely to be the only coolest down with the kids relatable adult they will encounter, so don't act like you are.


----------



## maomao (Sep 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Yes and with maths what gets taught is relatively stable from year to year... it is not like I have to teach a totally new set text that I never read before like in english.


Well preparation doesn't help. I read all the books on the school I was going to's syllabus and made sure I knew how to teach them. Two weeks before starting they changed school on me so I read all the ones on the new school's syllabus. Got there today and they'd changed the whole syllabus.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 20, 2021)

maomao said:


> Fucking hell thats loads!



I had 16 hours in my first placement on my PGCE, 21 and a form group in my second placement. Mostly with extremely bare bones schemes of work (literally the aim of the lesson, no materials or any details). Only from the beginning of October though.


----------



## maomao (Sep 20, 2021)

scifisam said:


> I had 16 hours in my first placement on my PGCE, 21 and a form group in my second placement. Mostly with extremely bare bones schemes of work (literally the aim of the lesson, no materials or any details). Only from the beginning of October though.


Crikey. I suppose you get used to it more quickly at least. We were scheduled 6-8 for the first placement, increasing to ten after Christmas (which didn't happen cause covid and stuff).


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 20, 2021)

chilango said:


> If you're struggling with the thought of straight edging it, rock up mid-week with a hangover. You won't drink on a school night ever again*
> 
> *not true. But it might put you off till half-term at least.


Ha absolutely no way I am ever risking a weekday hangover, that would be breakdown territory


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 20, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...or watch "Another Round" for inspiration.


Or 'Half Nelson'.


----------



## Throbbing Angel (Sep 20, 2021)

This was on the radio today.  It is about the founder of Now Teach and her journey from Journalist to Teacher at 58 years of age. Now Teach is about career changers getting into teaching. This is something MrsA and I have looked at in recent years. We're both in our fifties.










						BBC Radio 4 - Could Do Better - Available now
					

Available episodes of Could Do Better




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




*Could do Better*
_Lucy Kellaway charts her new start as a trainee teacher at the age of 58, moving from the comfortable life of an FT columnist to the realities of teaching in East London.

In 2016, the Financial Times’ management columnist Lucy Kellaway announced she was starting a new career as a teacher. Calling on others of a certain age to join her, she set up the Now Teach organisation to help older professionals become trainees in challenging schools. The scheme received over a thousand applications and selected just under fifty to join, including former corporate lawyers, investment bankers and senior civil servants.

This series follows Lucy and the other trainees over their first year as they encounter the ups and downs of their new life as novice teachers in inner city London.

Episode 1 – Last Day
It’s Lucy’s final day in her old job at the Financial Times. She talks to sceptical colleagues and undergoes that final duty of leaving a workplace - the boss’s speech._


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## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 20, 2021)

Don't forget to raid any resources to pad content.

It's often to schoolsey for my course but TES is a good place to search up stuff.


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## extra dry (Sep 22, 2021)

I got 17-20 teaching hours online a week, fairly easy reading and vocabulary work and one adult business class in the mix, elementary learners.  The biggest issue is keeping the parents happy with the amount and range of work.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 22, 2021)

Throbbing Angel said:


> This was on the radio today.  It is about the founder of Now Teach and her journey from Journalist to Teacher at 58 years of age. Now Teach is about career changers getting into teaching. This is something MrsA and I have looked at in recent years. We're both in our fifties.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I spent a couple years in a school working in a finance support role..   I'm in my 50s and there's no bloody way in a million years I'd ever consider becoming a teacher!    Good luck to those who do though..   Though my mate who is early 50s has just gone part-time and reduced his role.. seems alot happier for it.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 22, 2021)

extra dry said:


> I got 17-20 teaching hours online a week, fairly easy reading and vocabulary work and one adult business class in the mix, elementary learners.  The biggest issue is keeping the parents happy with the amount and range of work.



It's a very, very different level of admin and planning for EFL compared to mainstream teaching. There's at least one hour of admin for every hour of teaching.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 22, 2021)

I think a person needs to become a teacher first and worry about their subject or content second.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 22, 2021)

Certainly living up to your name eh


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 22, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I think a person needs to become a teacher first and worry about their subject or content second.


Yessss - but that doesn’t help the students stay on track.


----------



## spanglechick (Sep 22, 2021)

Sorry you’re finding it a lot, rutabowa - it is a full on kind of job and it takes a while to get past the stress to see the good stuff clearly.  This year will be a cunt.  Next year, until Xmas might be worse (usually follows that pattern for pgce>nqt folks).  BUT from year 2 term 2 onwards, it gets a bit easier with each new term.  

Behaviour is overwhelming and oppressive in a way that other teaching problems never are, possibly because it’s hard to get the desired results by copying what others do.  But you’ll find your teaching personality, which includes relationships and classroom management - and when you do, it’ll just _work_ most of the time.  And you’ll be free to realise your biggest problems are actually workload, the whims of the EdSec, and workload.  And when that happens, you’ll be as happy a teacher as you’re ever likely to be.    

BTW schemes of work? Lesson plans? You young’uns don’t know you’re born.  As an English PGCE / NQT in the mid nineties I was just told which text to do with which year group each term, and left to pull the whole lot out of my arse.


----------



## extra dry (Sep 22, 2021)

Its a hellish jump for most people, the workload and the expectations. Give it your best but walk away if you find yourself wornout, tired, jaded amd snapping at everyone who near and dear to you.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 22, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I think a person needs to become a teacher first and worry about their subject or content second.


I'm a teacher. Not sure if I could lecture on quantum physics.  Or French.  Or even any outside of ICT and Creative Media.

I could possibly manage a level 1 course in a lot of subjects but I wouldn't be great at it.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 22, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Behaviour is overwhelming and oppressive in a way that other teaching problems never are, possibly because it’s hard to get the desired results by copying what others do.  But you’ll find your teaching personality, which includes relationships and classroom management - and when you do, it’ll just _work_ most of the time.



Yeah. Fucking hell yeah.

I am terrified of getting a bad class again.

One of my worst years happened because I was hired after enrolment and they used my courses as a dumping ground for people who couldn't get on to other courses.

Had fist fights in the classroom that year. Also students who would just leave because they didn't give a shit about the course.

Which of course is my fault.

Me coming from teaching really nice adult students  then some lower achieving but still motivated tends over to what felt like mad max was a real learning experience  I can tell you.

I had to adapt my tool set.

Not as much as you might think but it did require a lot or internal changes.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 22, 2021)

Actually one of the nice things has been working with lots of SEN students. 
I had never done it before and actually I really enjoy it. 

I have 9 EHCP students this year almost half the class.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 23, 2021)

spanglechick said:


> Yessss - but that doesn’t help the students stay on track.


Apart from questioning the whole schooling system you have to ask what on track means.
I suppose it means meeting the demands of the examination gateways.
I don’t think you make a plant thrive by only measuring it, and it is no good being a ‘subject’ expert if those in your charge are ignoring you.
Why should students pay any attention to the demands of a stranger adult if they are not motivated to do so? I think you have to entice them in first, then invite them to do whatever second.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 23, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> I'm a teacher. Not sure if I could lecture on quantum physics.  Or French.  Or even any outside of ICT and Creative Media.
> 
> I could possibly manage a level 1 course in a lot of subjects but I wouldn't be great at it.


Is lecturing the same as teaching?


----------



## extra dry (Sep 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is lecturing the same as teaching?


Can worms opened...


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Is lecturing the same as teaching?


Lecturing is a subset of teaching.  However I was just using that term as it has often been my job title not because it was job description.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 23, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> Lecturing is a subset of teaching.  However I was just using that term as it has often been my job title not because it was job description.



Understood.
One worry is the notion that schoolkids sit in rows 'facing the front' whilst the 'teacher' tells them things (about their 'subject' of which they are more knowledgeable than the kids) and then answer any questions the kids might have.
I believe this is the idea many (no not all) have about what 'teaching' is. Allied to the idiotic notion that once you do it for a year, you simply repeat what you have done for the next 40+ years.
Now that sounds like lecturing to me, and to make a success of that the audience/kids are gonna want to have to be there like University Students. Schools are very rarely like that, maybe that kind of 'lesson' takes place 5% of the time in schools. The reality is more like the other 95%.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 23, 2021)

That model is outdated.  We are now aiming to be  learning facilitators.

There are numerous models on different methods of delivering student focused learning.

I can't speak for all teachers but frankly that statement is teaching granny to suck eggs. And only using VE with no checks for learning.

I think the more spicy question is the principles of the curriculum rather that the method of delivery.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 23, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> That model is outdated.  We are now aiming to be  learning facilitators.
> 
> There are numerous models on different methods of delivering student focused learning.
> 
> ...



Agree with that.


----------



## scifisam (Sep 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Understood.
> One worry is the notion that schoolkids sit in rows 'facing the front' whilst the 'teacher' tells them things (about their 'subject' of which they are more knowledgeable than the kids) and then answer any questions the kids might have.
> I believe this is the idea many (no not all) have about what 'teaching' is. Allied to the idiotic notion that once you do it for a year, you simply repeat what you have done for the next 40+ years.
> Now that sounds like lecturing to me, and to make a success of that the audience/kids are gonna want to have to be there like University Students. Schools are very rarely like that, maybe that kind of 'lesson' takes place 5% of the time in schools. The reality is more like the other 95%.



I have the sneaking suspicion that you don't really know all that much about current educational methods.


----------



## Sweet FA (Sep 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Understood





philosophical said:


> I believe this is the idea many (no not all) have about what 'teaching' is. Allied to the idiotic notion that once you do it for a year, you simply repeat what you have done for the next 40+ years.
> Now that sounds like lecturing to me, and to make a success of that the audience/kids are gonna want to have to be there like University Students. Schools are very rarely like that, maybe that kind of 'lesson' takes place 5% of the time in schools. The reality is more like the other 95%.


What an absolute load of old bollocks 

You understand fuck all.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Understood.
> One worry is the notion that schoolkids sit in rows 'facing the front' whilst the 'teacher' tells them things (about their 'subject' of which they are more knowledgeable than the kids) and then answer any questions the kids might have.
> I believe this is the idea many (no not all) have about what 'teaching' is. Allied to the idiotic notion that once you do it for a year, you simply repeat what you have done for the next 40+ years.
> Now that sounds like lecturing to me, and to make a success of that the audience/kids are gonna want to have to be there like University Students. Schools are very rarely like that, maybe that kind of 'lesson' takes place 5% of the time in schools. The reality is more like the other 95%.



As a teacher I can confirm that this is complete bollocks and for all the wonderful ideas about dialogic, pupil-led, socially-constructed learning floating around, while the end-of-unit test remains king the 'lecture' format will continue to be a large component of education. If anything the direction of travel is towards more lecturing, not less; with 'ready to learn' and other such ideological projects in newspeak drag disguises placing more and more constraints on what kids can do in a classroom.


----------



## chilango (Sep 23, 2021)

Loud/influential 'small c' conservative voices in education are pushing hard for a move to 'direct instruction' claiming that "cog sci" makes "drill*" an evidence based teaching method.

Regardless of the research base they are motivated by petty authoritarianism and limited relational skills.

*Not the music.They think that should be banned.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 24, 2021)

WOOOO that week ended. It took about 3 years.


----------



## rutabowa (Sep 24, 2021)

Did a couple of nice calls home at the end, so I have forgotten all the horrific bits for now


----------



## Steel Icarus (Sep 24, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Did a couple of nice calls home at the end, so I have forgotten all the horrific bits for now


Hopefully those nice moments you'll get through the week will counter the shitter times.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 24, 2021)

Yeah.

The bad times may be stressful but the good times really do help remind you of why the job is so important.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Sep 24, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> WOOOO that week ended. It took about 3 years.


Feel that. At the pub by the college treating myself.

Will be great next week. Out on strike.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 8, 2021)

Unexpected open day tomorrow (saturday) morning, woooo. Nearly thru a whole half term tho.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 8, 2021)

Honestly so lucky with the department I ended up in though, they are all so good and supportive and lovely. There is no way I could have managed in most other places, from what I hear from other trainees


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 8, 2021)

That first half term is a real landmark.


----------



## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> That first half term is a real landmark.


I'm at home, bored already


----------



## maomao (Oct 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I'm at home, bored already


I've got a two week half term. Nearly did a jig when I found out. I have taken over the classes that were being done by a teach first trainee who gave up which means I don't have another teacher in the room. It's a lot nicer learning to teach like this.


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## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

(not really. Tbh the thought that last week I was getting up at 5:45 every morning and teaching all day is totally unbelievable)


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## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

maomao said:


> I've got a two week half term. Nearly did a jig when I found out. I have taken over the classes that were being done by a teach first trainee who have up which means I don't have another teacher in the room. It's a lot nicer learning to teach like this.


I have v much enjoyed the lessons I've been observed in, but having a lot of other lessons where there isn't an observer is also good... just sometimes it has been total chaos ha.


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## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

We too have kind of a 2 week half term... 2nd week is reading week, so it is work but mostly from home and no teaching at all.


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## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

I do have to edit together a load of video clips from my lessons (CRINGE) and put together a PowerPoint presentation about "how I progressed this term" against 4 curriculum points though...


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## maomao (Oct 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> We too have kind of a 2 week half term... 2nd week is reading week, so it is work but mostly from home and no teaching at all.


I've got a 5,000 word essay to do and tonnes of planning but I don't have to iron any shirts and I can spend today with my kid.


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## rutabowa (Oct 18, 2021)

maomao said:


> I've got a 5,000 word essay to do and tonnes of planning but I don't have to iron any shirts and I can spend today with my kid.


❤❤

Annoyingly my kids half term is next week!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Oct 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I'm at home, bored already


Excellent.  Boredom is much better than stress. 

You can do prep or CPD if you want this week but also just focusing on doing something that you would enjoy personally would be great pick.


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## rutabowa (Nov 5, 2021)

Wish someone had told me about the extreme highs and lows


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 6, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Wish someone had told me about the extreme highs and lows




Do you need to vent  because  I'm happy to lend an ear.


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## rutabowa (Nov 6, 2021)

Thank you Shippou-Sensei   appreciated! But it is all good right now, department is still being great and week ended good... just standard ups and downs. I will def be in touch at some point tho!


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## rutabowa (Nov 6, 2021)

Got all day training today which I thought I would resent but it is actually amazing, all about philosophies of learning etc, getting a lot out of it.


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## rutabowa (Nov 26, 2021)

End of November and all is well, I like it. My assignment is going to be on cognitive load theory and particularly "maths anxiety" and its affect on cognitive load for both students and teacher, and the balance between reducing cognitive load and teaching for conceptual depth and complexity.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 26, 2021)

Swot


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## rutabowa (Nov 26, 2021)

I'm writing it here to make me actually do it


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I do have to edit together a load of video clips from my lessons (CRINGE) and put together a PowerPoint presentation about "how I progressed this term" against 4 curriculum points though...



My university visiting tutor didn't visit me because of the covid, I had to send him a video of me teaching instead. Which meant I had to watch a video of myself teaching. I realised that I fiddled relentlesly with my shirt cuffs, so now I teach with my sleeves rolled up. That was about all the professional development I got out of it tbh.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 26, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> End of November and all is well, I like it. My assignment is going to be on cognitive load theory and particularly "maths anxiety" and its affect on cognitive load for both students and teacher, and the balance between reducing cognitive load and teaching for conceptual depth and complexity.



I would actually read that.


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## nagapie (Nov 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I would actually read that.


Me too.


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## rutabowa (Nov 28, 2021)

It is going to be my first academic writing for 20 odd years, so the topic is probably wasted on me, but happy to send it over once it's done early next year.


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## rutabowa (Dec 12, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I do have to edit together a load of video clips from my lessons (CRINGE) and put together a PowerPoint presentation about "how I progressed this term" against 4 curriculum points though...


This presentation was nothing to worry about in the end, could have spent FAR less time and stress on it. But oh well, I passed at least, so a third of the way to QTS!


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## rutabowa (Feb 12, 2022)

That assignment is done and passed, if anyone wants it just message me. It has a few good bits in, a few not so interesting bits too, I'd skim it.


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## nagapie (Feb 13, 2022)

As interesting as it sounded, I'd prefer you gave us a summary of it and your findings here. Then can be discussed.
But that's my ADHD brain's preference.


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## rutabowa (Feb 13, 2022)

i'm not sure I really found anything. it was a summary of cognitive load theory. I guess the key bit is that anxiety reduces working memory (so it isn't just that not being able to do the work causes anxiety; it is that pre-existing anxiety itself makes the work more difficult to do). And in fact maths anxiety might actually affect students with the highest maths attainment most, particularly girls. ALSO it is catching! Parents and anxious teachers (eg those without higher level maths qualifications) can pass it on. I guess the key quote I referenced was "Educators should not only consider math learning in terms of concepts, procedures, math curricula, and instruction but also the emotions and anxieties children may bring to the learning situation."


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 13, 2022)

rutabowa said:


> And in fact maths anxiety might actually affect students with the highest maths attainment most, particularly girls.



I came across some similar research. Probably the same research tbh. I think I used it in one of my essays too.

Evidently, from the way schools are actually run, it's only PGCE students who read this kind of stuff. Then once they're new teachers they have zero ability to change anything, at least not until they've climbed up through a system that encourages them at every turn to abandon both their own judgement and any kind of evidence-based practice.

You can, however, tactically ignore school policies and get away with it. Particularly once you realise that management know full well that you're not that easy to replace. I for example have never used the phrase 'track me' in class and never will, even though it's the 'required language' where I work. If challenged on this I have a copy of the teachers' standards I can produce at a moment's notice, so I can point out the 'safe learning environment for all pupils' bit; the bit which expecting non-neurotypical children to maintain eye contract with a speaker at all times directly contravenes. I haven't been challenged about it yet. They know they've got no actual grounds to _require_ me to use any specific form of words.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 13, 2022)

As for cognitive load theory, everyone in education knows about it. And yet teachers are habitually expected to do keep a minimum of ten things in their head at all times and do five things at once.


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## rutabowa (Feb 13, 2022)

SpookyFrank said:


> As for cognitive load theory, everyone in education knows about it. And yet teachers are habitually expected to do keep a minimum of ten things in their head at all times and do five things at once.


ha yes absolutely, and it always the irony that all the training/tuition we get on CLT is delivered at the rate of one packed slide every 2 seconds. and of course if this makes teachers anxious and anxiety is catching it is all a vicious circle.

You might like this bit from the conclusion, pretty sure I got influence by something you said about direct instruction at some point over the year, it is like a parallel between how students learn and how teachers get trained in our system (you would probably be a bit less equivocal about it than me though):



> I have come to realise how important it is, for me, to understand that cognitive science/cognitive load theory is not, in itself, a philosophy. However, it is a body of research that can be used to justify a philosophy. The current prevailing trends, tending towards direct instruction, are part of a realist philosophy. This philosophy is based on the evidence of cognitive load theory; but this philosophy is not necessarily the only possible conclusion that follows from the evidence. In a way I see a parallel between (for example) Rosenshine’s Principles, and KCF (the shortcut method for fraction division). They are both good for giving a practical process that works quickly; but, on their own, they do not give insight into the wider schemas (of, respectively, “instruction” or “number”). They are definitely not incorrect, and in fact can be very useful, but they should not be mistaken for the schema itself, which is much more complex (in both cases). Their use is in providing a quick route to procedural fluency, which can (and must) then be built on to develop conceptual understanding.
> 
> "Having conceptual understanding enables students to meaningfully operate upon rules and procedures, and provides a strong basis for effective problems solving." (Panasuk and Beyranevand, 2010)
> 
> Is this way round (procedural fluency followed by conceptual understanding) ideal? I am unsure. Carrol’s view is that “[e]ven a moderately oversimplified model is often useful, nonetheless, in dealing with complex phenomena” (Carroll, 1989). Sweller, on the other hand, suggests “[l]earning the procedure in this fashion [shortcut procedure] substantially reduces the cognitive load but at the expense of understanding” (Sweller, 1998). Nevertheless, on both sides of my analogy, time constraints might mean that it is the most pragmatic approach. Trainee teachers in the UK, particularly on the Teach First programme, are in the classroom teaching from the start; they need strategies that work fast, and are easy to learn, in order to survive. And students only have a very limited amount of contact time in class (particularly with Covid disruption); perhaps they too need a quick fix approach.


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## philosophical (Feb 13, 2022)

Years ago a headteacher said to me that they were obliged to teach a ‘bottom set’ yr 10 group Mathematics, and said they didn’t know where to start.
I suggested getting them an Argos catalogue each, setting a budget, and planning present buying.
At the end of that term the headteacher said the idea had sustained (with creative minor variations) for about 13 weeks!
They also said it was the most enjoyable and trouble free teaching they had ever done.
I think relating schooling to the real lives of the students is a good idea.
Knowing how many wives Henry the Eighth had is all very well, but learning budgeting is better to help a person cope with something like an energy crisis.


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## rutabowa (Feb 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Years ago a headteacher said to me that they were obliged to teach a ‘bottom set’ yr 10 group Mathematics, and said they didn’t know where to start.
> I suggested getting them an Argos catalogue each, setting a budget, and planning present buying.
> At the end of that term the headteacher said the idea had sustained (with creative minor variations) for about 13 weeks!
> They also said it was the most enjoyable and trouble free teaching they had ever done.
> ...


That is cool in a way... doing it for 13 weeks was pretty much giving up on that group getting any grade whatsoever in their maths exam tho, which would have lifelong consequences for them. I'm not sure "enjoyable and trouble free" should be the primary aim tbh, some things are just difficult


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## philosophical (Feb 13, 2022)

rutabowa said:


> That is cool in a way... doing it for 13 weeks was pretty much giving up on that group getting any grade whatsoever in their maths exam tho, which would have lifelong consequences for them.


Yeah I get that.
As far as the grading system goes, that is another conversation.


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## rutabowa (Feb 13, 2022)

i am literally just planning a sequence of lesson on personal finances so was a relevant idea for me! def having one on doing a shop/budgeting... an argos catalogue or something might be a good idea. prob stuff to do with credit and loans.


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## philosophical (Feb 13, 2022)

I suggested the Argos catalogue at the time because it was tactile and colourful.
Another way of keeping interest beyond what I had been subject to in my schooldays, which was basically chalk and talk and copying.


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## rutabowa (Feb 13, 2022)

the equivalent now would be something to do with online shopping I guess, but obv that is not "tactile" (unless they all got out their phones and did it on there somehow, which is not happening).

And all the stuff about needing mental arithmetic/written calculation methods because of shopping wouldn't (doesn't) work any more, as everything gets added up and calculated automatically by the computer.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 13, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Years ago a headteacher said to me that they were obliged to teach a ‘bottom set’ yr 10 group Mathematics, and said they didn’t know where to start.
> I suggested getting them an Argos catalogue each, setting a budget, and planning present buying.
> At the end of that term the headteacher said the idea had sustained (with creative minor variations) for about 13 weeks!
> They also said it was the most enjoyable and trouble free teaching they had ever done.
> ...



I moonlighted as a maths teacher for a few weeks last year and the best lessons I had were the ones that involved explaining 12- and 24-hour clock timings and calculations using bus and train timetables. This was a school in a small rural town, the sort of place where public transport is vital for having any kind of life pre-driving licence.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Mar 25, 2022)

Do they still do physical catalogues?

I run into odd stuff like that.

Planned a lesson around card games. Turns out most teens have not played card games as they have all had phones since they stopped teething.

They did know of the concept of card games so I am managing.


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## rutabowa (Apr 1, 2022)

Inspired by this thread I made a resource based in the online Gucci shop sale, teaching reverse percentage (how to work out the original price when you're told the sale price and what percentage off it was). Went down well.

It was a tough term but today was so amazing watching this talent show year 8 had put together, it was the best experience ever, so privileged  to be there and see it.  I hope everyone has a nice holiday


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## Sweet FA (Apr 1, 2022)

Good work mate. 

I've used car/bike configurators in maths with otherwise disinterested children:

BMW Configurator | BMW UK 





__





						KTM Configurator
					





					configurator.ktm.com


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## Lea (Apr 25, 2022)

Hello rutabowa just read through the thread really quickly. Well done for getting this far in your teacher training year. 

I did a schools direct with PGCE (Secondary French) in 2020/2021 after being made redundant from my admin job at the start of the pandemic. It was the most difficult year in my whole working life. I found behaviour really difficult to manage. The working hours were very long. Spent hours every evening and weekend preparing PowerPoint presentations for the lessons. Differentiation for the high/low ability and SEN pupils. It was very rewarding and I managed to finish my training year and was awarded the PGCE. I'm glad that I did it but it was tough as doing the additional PGCE meant that you had no time off during the holidays which were taken up researching/writing the essays. 

Good luck with the rest of your training.


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## rutabowa (May 14, 2022)

rutabowa said:


> I like this paper about the "Solidarity Assimilation Method" in Brazil, it kind of puts my concerns about the programme into words: (PDF) Mathematics education's solidarity assimilation methodology


just concluding my second assignment, I managed to shoehorn this in it is quite exciting, well it isn't really shoehorning as it is totally fundamental to how I see the education system... really recommend reading this article to anyone interested in a marxist perspective but with v practical strategies for operating within it, it is v inspiring.


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## maomao (May 14, 2022)

I have to do about her 5000 worder by mid-June and I haven't even started. When I cracked on with the first one it went okay and I got 80% so I should be able to coast it but I am just so knackered from actual teaching. As I am currently working unqualified I get a full teacher load not the NQT/ECT hours ago and they have got me doing drama and all sorts (never agree to teach drama). Great for my behaviour management, terrible for almost every other aspect of my teaching.


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## rutabowa (May 14, 2022)

maomao said:


> I have to do about her 5000 worder by mid-June and I haven't even started. When I cracked on with the first one it went okay and I got 80% so I should be able to coast it but I am just so knackered from actual teaching. As I am currently working unqualified I get a full teacher load not the NQT/ECT hours ago and they have got me doing drama and all sorts (never agree to teach drama). Great for my behaviour management, terrible for almost every other aspect of my teaching.


Ah  that sounds tough. 
You get percentage grades? We just get fail/borderline/secure pass/strong pass... bit disappointing really! I got secure pass, can't see me ever getting higher than that with my other commitments/work ethic ha.


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## maomao (May 14, 2022)

rutabowa said:


> Ah  that sounds tough.
> You get percentage grades? We just get fail/borderline/secure pass/strong pass... bit disappointing really! I got secure pass, can't see me ever getting higher than that with my other commitments/work ethic ha.


I think I'm off the normal protocol. It's just me and one tutor trying to get me finished by email. That's part of the problem, no input/ideas.


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## rutabowa (May 14, 2022)

We basically get 3 spaced (online) university days for each assignment, which do give quite a lot of structural help and pointers to research/suggested timeline etc... sounds a lot more scaffold. There's a personal tutor too but they're mainly doing lesson observations and feedback.


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## rutabowa (Jun 8, 2022)

Woo just got my result on that assignment "strong pass"! Maybe I got a marxist marker. Really didnt think I'd get that... unfortunately I seem to be much better at writing essays than I am at actual teaching but hopefully that will come


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## equationgirl (Jun 8, 2022)

maomao said:


> I think I'm off the normal protocol. It's just me and one tutor trying to get me finished by email. That's part of the problem, no input/ideas.


Seeing as you are off piste, so to speak, for drama could you get them to do some interpretative dance and/or mime for a lesson? Communicate without speaking?

It might be a shit idea...


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## maomao (Jun 8, 2022)

equationgirl said:


> Seeing as you are off piste, so to speak, for drama could you get them to do some interpretative dance and/or mime for a lesson? Communicate without speaking?
> 
> It might be a shit idea...


I've finished all my essays for the moment. Just handed in the last one Monday morning. Will graduate in July. And I've managed to get out of doing drama lessons for a few weeks as the Mandarin teacher is unwell.



rutabowa said:


> Woo just got my result on that assignment "strong pass"! Maybe I got a marxist marker. Really didnt think I'd get that... unfortunately I seem to be much better at writing essays than I am at actual teaching but hopefully that will come



Congrats. I feel the same; it's a really difficult job and it feels like it'll be another year or two till I can do it justice.


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## scifisam (Jun 8, 2022)

maomao said:


> I've finished all my essays for the moment. Just handed in the last one Monday morning. Will graduate in July. And I've managed to get out of doing drama lessons for a few weeks as the Mandarin teacher is unwell.
> 
> 
> 
> Congrats. I feel the same; it's a really difficult job and it feels like it'll be another year or two till I can do it justice.



Fucking awesome, well done!


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## equationgirl (Jun 8, 2022)

Well done on finishing everything maomao and fab news about evading drama for Mandarin


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## philosophical (Jun 8, 2022)

Drama is the best subject ever. 
Once you understand that PE isn't taught so people can become super dooper internationals, but it is worthwhile and educational in some way for all kids, then you will understand that Drama isn't taught to turn out actors.


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## scifisam (Jun 8, 2022)

philosophical said:


> Drama is the best subject ever.
> Once you understand that PE isn't taught so people can become super dooper internationals, but it is worthwhile and educational in some way for all kids, then you will understand that Drama isn't taught to turn out actors.



It is a great subject, but definitely not easy to teach, or at least to teach well.


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## philosophical (Jun 8, 2022)

scifisam said:


> It is a great subject, but definitely not easy to teach, or at least to teach well.



Totally agree.
I think the basic dynamic (or at least one of them) is that Drama teachers are not filling up, but drawing out.
One huge advantage is that done well it has a starting point that says to the kids, you're already all right, let's build on that, and let's build on that together.
Definitely a tough gig to avoid the whole process becoming lazy self indulgent rubbish.


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## maomao (Jun 9, 2022)

scifisam said:


> It is a great subject, but definitely not easy to teach, or at least to teach well.


I've only been filling in a couple of sessions a week because a drama teacher left at short notice and it is incredibly difficult to teach well.  Just ensuring that the chaos of creation and rehearsal is something productive and not just a bunch of kids having sword fights can be very difficult. It can be a lot of fun and there's no marking. My main objection to doing it is that the kids aren't getting what they would from a trained drama teacher.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 9, 2022)

Doing out of field cover is jarring. 

Had to cover functional skills English for a term. I managed to do reasonably by focusing on the speaking and listening part (which had an early exam) but I did feel that my stuff was sub par compared to what an English teacher could do.


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## philosophical (Jun 9, 2022)

maomao said:


> I've only been filling in a couple of sessions a week because a drama teacher left at short notice and it is incredibly difficult to teach well.  Just ensuring that the chaos of creation and rehearsal is something productive and not just a bunch of kids having sword fights can be very difficult. It can be a lot of fun and there's no marking. My main objection to doing it is that the kids aren't getting what they would from a trained drama teacher.



I think you’re right that Drama needs a trained and educationally focussed Drama teacher. 
There is ‘marking’ at exam level, but the subject is not particularly paper centric…if at all.
I worry that because it is very difficult to teach it is downplayed or dismissed or even abandoned by many in the educational field.
It also does not easily fit the utilitarian model that pervades a lot of modern education.
A child once said to me that you don’t learn anything in Drama, you get better at it.
Teaching is an amazingly difficult job, at first I think teachers just about survive, it gets a bit better after that, but at around the six year mark teachers realise they know nothing about the job, and it is at that point they begin to become proper teachers.
I would say that experience is everything in teaching, much more significant than training.


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## spanglechick (Jun 9, 2022)

Drama is a phenomenally important subject, but it should be taught by trained specialists, in dedicated spaces, and taught intelligently.  It should not be about jazz hands, nor about “get into groups and make a play about bullying”.  

(Good) Drama teachers have absolutely stonking classroom management skills.


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## kenny g (Jun 11, 2022)

maomao said:


> Haven't heard of teach first but I know people who are very happy doing schools direct which sounds like the same thing.
> 
> 2 factors to consider:
> 
> ...


PGCE is a bastard of a course. Take my hat off to anyone who gets through it. Massive amounts of coursework combined with having to go into a school environment and deal with the madness of being a trainee teacher. I dropped out but learnt stacks in the four months I stayed the course. This was over twenty years ago so the profession has obviously improved enormously. What killed it for me was the dynamics and insane homophobia in the school I was having to teach in. Best of luck to all who take the plunge.


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## kenny g (Jun 11, 2022)

Just to add. As someone who had come from a dry extremely academic degree then lived a few years taking full advantage of what the 90s had to offer followed by the PGCE it was extremely intense to come to terms with having to practice the theory being studied during the course. If I went to it now I am sure my life experience would do me the world of favours. There is nothing better than teaching a class on a Friday afternoon who you have managed to get genuinely interested in the topic..


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## rutabowa (Sep 30, 2022)

So a few things in hindsight.
I think in my specific position the teach first route was 100% right, and actually the only possible way wrt money.

There are several teach first and several schools direct in my year at my school, and there is no "type" for either route; definitely the idea that teach first is posh young graduates is not true at all here. There is no difference or distinction we are all just in the same boat with more or less the same experiences.

Although schools direct did a little less teaching hours in that first year they also had 1 day week out so it was not really that different workload wise. And teach first have quite a few days out training over the year too.

I reckon with both courses by far the biggest thing that would make or break it is the specific school.

I found the training and academic side really good and well organized. Tbh the fact that most of it (including all the 6 week summer course) was online last year made it much more possible for me; going away for 6 weeks would not have been possible.

At this point after 1 year IF I just stopped doing the teach first side I would already have QTS and a PGCE from the assignments I've already done. This is not what you're meant to do, and I'll finish the university side and get the PGDE credits because I like it, but it is possible to just decide to leave it.


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