# What is the story with this Nursery rhyme



## DuckQuack'sEcho (Apr 7, 2009)

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house
And stole a leg of beef.
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy was in bed.
I picked up the leg of beef
And hit him on the head.

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a thief.
Taffy came to my house
And stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy wasn't home;
Taffy came to my house
And stole a marrow bone.

I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy was not in;
Taffy came to my house
And stole a rolling-pin.
I went to Taffy's house;
Taffy was in bed;
I took up a poker
And flung it at his head.

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a thief,
Taffy came to my house
And stole a piece of beef;
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy wasn't in;
I jumped upon his Sunday hat,
And poked it with a pin.

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a sham,
Taffy came to my house
And stole a leg of lamb;
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy was away;
I stuffed his socks with sawdust
And filled his shoes with clay.

Taffy was a Welshman,
Taffy was a cheat,
Taffy came to my house
And stole a piece of meat;
I went to Taffy's house,
Taffy was not there;
I hung his coat and trousers
To roast before a fire.

Traditionally sung on the 1st of March, St David's Day, on the Welsh borders and other parts of England.

Is the song demeaning to the Welsh? I'm Australian and very ignorant regarding this particular custom.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Apr 7, 2009)

Yum yum - taffy.


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

It's an Englisch anti-Welsh rhyme, no doubt fuelled by jealousy.

Rasscicts!


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## llantwit (Apr 7, 2009)

DuckQuack'sEcho said:


> Is the song demeaning to the Welsh?



Yes. It's fed an enduring cultural stereotype of the Welsh as swarthy, theiving, untrustworthy types. But the English are probably right not to trust us.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

DuckQuack'sEcho said:


> Taffy was a Welshman,
> Taffy was a thief.
> Taffy came to my house
> And stole a leg of beef.
> ...




I think it's a great song. I shall be memorising ther words and singing it every 1st March


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I think it's a great song. I shall be memorising ther words and singing it every 1st March



give you a giggle does it big man? <yaaaaaaaawn


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

ddraig said:


> give you a giggle does it big man? <yaaaaaaaawn



only if it insults the likes of you.


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> only if it insults the likes of you.



and that's how you get yer engerlich kicks is it? quite pathetic no?
enjoy then child


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

ddraig said:


> and that's how you get yer engerlich kicks is it? quite pathetic no?
> enjoy then child



It's nothing to do with where you or I come from, your just a prick full stop.

I'm surrounded by the Welsh, close Family and work colleagues.

I'll be memorising the song to sing to my welsh friends/Family in return for the Joshing they give me when we lose at Rugby.

they will take it in the jest that it is meant in, because they are good people.

your a cock and will take it badly coz you can, Nothing to be with you being Welsh more to do with you being a knob.

BTW. I'll let you have the last word, coz I know you really want it


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> It's nothing to do with where you or I come from, your just a prick full stop.
> 
> I'm surrounded by the Welsh, close Family and work colleagues.
> 
> ...



that's nice
1. how am i prick then?
2. what similar 'joshing' songs are there for the engerlichs?
3. good little welshies taking it in jest! all that about thieving and dishonesty, just a luagh init, where's me sense of humour oh dear!
4. a prick and a cock! wow i've made it. you know so much about me don't you, i mean apart from being Welsh i dared to have the opinion that your tatto was generic off the shelf/out of the book obviousness.
5. no go on, have another froth, boss


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## osterberg (Apr 7, 2009)

Oi,internetstalker,us celts know we are superior,we don't have to justify ourselves


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

ddraig said:


> that's nice
> 1. how am i prick then?
> 2. what similar 'joshing' songs are there for the engerlichs?
> 3. good little welshies taking it in jest! all that about thieving and dishonesty, just a luagh init, where's me sense of humour oh dear!
> ...



First off my tattoo isn't generic out of a book. it was drawn on my arm by a friend, you twat.

The reason your a cock isn't because of that original comment, but because of your refusal to accept your pigeon holing pre conceptions were wrong and not even trying to understand anyones point over those ignorant preconceptions.

2nd of all I find you genuinly xenophobic against the English (or Englisch as you put it), this contradicts the points you where trying to pull me up on in the first place.

so not only are you ignorant but a hypocrite aswell


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

osterberg said:


> Oi,internetstalker,us celts know we are superior,we don't have to justify ourselves





So i am am often told


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I think it's a great song. I shall be memorising ther words and singing it every 1st March


Be sure to display the courage of your convictions and deliver it with full welly on Cardiff St Mary Street at around 11pm.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

Lets try it like this:

Jimmy was a Englishman,
Jimmy was a thief.
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a leg of beef.
I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy was in bed.
I picked up the leg of beef
And hit him on the head.

Jimmy was a Englishman,
Jimmy was a thief.
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a piece of beef;
I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy wasn't home;
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a marrow bone.

I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy was not in;
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a rolling-pin.
I went to Jimmy's house;
Jimmy was in bed;
I took up a poker
And flung it at his head.

Jimmy was a Englishman,
Jimmy was a thief,
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a piece of beef;
I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy wasn't in;
I jumped upon his Sunday hat,
And poked it with a pin.

Jimmy was a Englishman,
Jimmy was a sham,
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a leg of lamb;
I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy was away;
I stuffed his socks with sawdust
And filled his shoes with clay.

Jimmy was a Englishman,
Jimmy was a cheat,
Jimmy came to my house
And stole a piece of meat;
I went to Jimmy's house,
Jimmy was not there;
I hung his coat and trousers
To roast before a fire.



Is this insulting to the English??

no

only to Jimmy.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Be sure to display the courage of your convictions and deliver it with full welly on Cardiff St Mary Street at around 11pm.


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> they will take it in the jest that it is meant in, because they are good people.


Just so you know: I'm happy to have the piss taken out of me in a joshing way because I'm Welsh but there really isn't a lot in that rhyme to find funny.


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## electrogirl (Apr 7, 2009)

it's a bit long and repetitive. i got bored half way through.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Just so you know: I'm happy to have the piss taken out of me in a joshing way because I'm Welsh



I don't doubt it for a second, but you are not ignorant, whats more you have a great deal of common sense



editor said:


> but there really isn't a lot in that rhyme to find funny.



It's a pretty shite ryhme TBH!

Whoever wrote it could've done alot better if thier aim was to insult the Welsh


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

"Taff" or "Taffy" is a generic nickname for the Welsh.

"Jimmy" is not a generic nickname for the English.


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## Biddlybee (Apr 7, 2009)

Why are you all spelling English with a c in it?


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## quimcunx (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> "Taff" or "Taffy" is a generic nickname for the Welsh.
> 
> "Jimmy" is not a generic nickname for the English.



No.  It's a generic nickname for the Scots.  

A Scot being called English.   

That internetstalker had better watch his back.


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> No.  It's a generic nickname for the Scots.
> 
> A Scot being called English.
> 
> That internetstalker had better watch his back.



Yeah!


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> Lets try it like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Boy, you're being a bit thick today. Try adding a bit of cultural context (i.e.the English dominance of Wales, attempts to destroy the language etc) and then realise that 'Taffy' is a generic name for the Welsh.  So the poem is one long and damning attack on the Welsh people.

Your Jimmy 'point' really is a rubbish one.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> "Taff" or "Taffy" is a generic nickname for the Welsh.
> 
> "Jimmy" is not a generic nickname for the English.



I bet there is as many English called Jimmy as Welsh called Taff

whats more we don't have a nickname like Taffy
the Irish Have Paddy
The Scots Have Jock

The English get called Wankers from the other 3 but thats not the same



BiddlyBee said:


> Why are you all spelling English with a c in it?




ddraig is xenophobic


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

quimcunx said:


> A Scot being called English.


Now that *is* offensive.


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I bet there is as many English called Jimmy as Welsh called Taff


You've really lost your marbles today, haven't you?


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

BiddlyBee said:


> Why are you all spelling English with a c in it?



To emphasise the Saes' Germanic origins


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> Boy, you're being a bit thick today. Try adding a bit of cultural context (i.e.the English dominance of Wales, attempts to destroy the language etc) and then realise that 'Taffy' is a generic name for the Welsh.  So the poem is one long and damning attack on the Welsh people.
> 
> Your Jimmy 'point' really is a rubbish one.





you really think I don't realise that.

Taffy isn't a derogative term tho is it.

Of course the song is designed to be insulting.

but it's a pretty poor attempt at it.

and my point was about interpratation


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I bet there is as many English called Jimmy as Welsh called Taff
> 
> whats more we don't have a nickname like Taffy
> the Irish Have Paddy
> ...



I think you're missing the point here. Editor's already explained it again though.


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## Biddlybee (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> To emphasise the Saes' Germanic origins


Ta, went over my head


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

> Taffy isn't a derogative term tho is it.



I find it derogatory.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> You've really lost your marbles today, haven't you?



*facepalm*

You Didn't think I was being serious did you?


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> I find it derogatory.



Yep.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> I find it derogatory.



I find your opinion derogatory


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> *facepalm*
> 
> You Didn't think I was being serious did you?


I'm certainly impressed with your attempt at a face saving 'double bluff,' although I fear you've failed to convince many people.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> I find it derogatory.





cesare said:


> Yep.





My Welsh Brother in law has a personalised number plate TAF5Y (or summat like that)

hardly the work of an insulted ex pat is it


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

Anyway, back to the rhyme I was told as a kid it refered to our medieval habit of cattle raiding and English retaliation, dont know how true that is tho'


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> I'm certainly impressed with your attempt at a face saving 'double bluff,' although I fear you've failed to convince many people.



So you really think I'nm of the opinion that there are more Jimmy's in England then Taffs in Wales?

I will be adding smilies in future

whatevs!


besides, I knda thought this line was proof i wasn't being serious:


internetstalker said:


> The English get called Wankers from the other 3 but thats not the same


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> My Welsh Brother in law has a personalised number plate TAF5Y (or summat like that)
> 
> hardly the work of an insulted ex pat is it



The difference is that he can call himself that if he wants. Same as some Asian kids have taken to calling each other pakis.

It's entirely different if someone else uses the term. The recipient decides if they find loaded, derogatory terms offensive - not the person using them.


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> My Welsh Brother in law has a personalised number plate TAF5Y (or summat like that)
> 
> hardly the work of an insulted ex pat is it



Sure, and when I was a kid in the Eighties I knew a black fella called Chalky; some people play along cos its easier some dont.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> The difference is that he can call himself that if he wants. Same as some Asian kids have taken to calling each other pakis.
> 
> It's entirely different if someone else uses the term. The recipient decides if they find loaded, derogatory terms offensive - not the person using them.





Belushi said:


> Sure, and when I was a kid in the Eighties I knew a black fella called Chalky; some people play along cos its easier some dont.



I don't think those 2 points can be compared with a Welshman being called Taffy TBH


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I don't think those 2 points can be compared TBH




Why not?

You've decided what's offensive or not, have you?


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

oh dear, you really are THICK IS!
aaaahahahahahaha, every single post a display of your thick bitter thickness 
and then you attempt the backtrack and FAIL! spectacularly
FAIL FAIL FAIL
awww, poor dab


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> I don't think those 2 points can be compared with a Welshman being called Taffy TBH



Ity doesnt matter what you think to be frank, its up to the recipient to decide what they find offensive or not.


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## DotCommunist (Apr 7, 2009)

How come you have to pay to get into wales but it's free to get out?


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> Why not?
> 
> You've decided what's offensive or not, have you?



No I just don't regard Taffy as offensive.

Maybe it's the amount of Welshman i have met who call themselves Taff
or the fact I've never heard  a Welshman say it is a derogative term or refer to it as such

certainly not the same as nigga or paki


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> No I just don't regard Taffy as offensive.
> 
> Maybe it's the amount of Welshman i have met who call themselves Taff
> or the fact I've never heard  a Welshman say it is a derogative term or refer to it as such
> ...



Well you now heard a number of Welsh people tell you it's offensive - so you may want to bear that in mind.


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> or the fact I've never heard  a Welshman say it is a derogative term or refer to it as such



You have now.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Ity doesnt matter what you think to be frank, its up to the recipient to decide what they find offensive or not.



yeah but by that reckoning your leaving yourself open to the PC brigade where ANYTHING can be offensive.

I prefer the common sense route

If my Welsh brother in law goes to bussiness meetings showing off his car with TAF5Y as the number plate proud as punch

then common sense tells me theres not much derogative about the term


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## Belushi (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> yeah but by that reckoning your leaving yourself open to the *PC brigade *where ANYTHING can be offensive.
> 
> I prefer the common sense route
> 
> ...



Thats about all we need to know.


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> yeah but by that reckoning your leaving yourself open to the PC brigade where ANYTHING can be offensive.
> 
> I prefer the common sense route
> 
> ...



It's not PC brigade you idiot. It's some Welsh people telling you it's fucking offensive and you going 'la la la I'm not listening cos I've got a welsh brother in law'.

Christ.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

Belushi said:


> Thats about all we need to know.



Touche!


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

tell you BiL that he's thick as well 
and letting the side down

(does he doff his cap to the boss in'tmornin??)

silly bugger trying to get a cheap shot out of a silly song poem - £5
silly bugger massively missing the point, contradicting itself and digging a bigger hole - £10
silly thick bugger still not getting it after having it explained by various people - priceless, fucking priceless! 

carry on boy, great afternoon entertainment


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> It's not PC brigade you idiot. It's some Welsh people telling you it's fucking offensive and you going 'la la la I'm not listening cos I've got a welsh brother in law'.
> 
> Christ.



thats not what I said at all, and there no need to call me an idiot as I am listening, so calm down a bit!

FFS!


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> thats not what I said at all, and there no need to call me an idiot as I am listening, so calm down a bit!
> 
> FFS!



You're not listening at all, that's the point.  It's like deja vu from another thread, South African terms or summat.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

> This message is hidden because ddraig is on your ignore list.



you still here?

shame


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

cesare said:


> You're not listening at all, that's the point.  It's like deja vu from another thread, South African terms or summat.



LOL!

thats wasn't me not listening that time

anyway, how am I not listening?

What do you want me to say!

I go through 32 years of life never being told Taffy is a derogative term

then get told it is

I see

I've learnt that some people find the term derogative!

now what?


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> you still here?
> 
> shame



awww thickboy has taken his ball home and doesn't want to play as he's losing! 

awwww, game set and pwned!


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## cesare (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> LOL!
> 
> thats wasn't me not listening that time
> 
> ...



All you need do is be sure of your audience's reaction if you use the term.


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## llantwit (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> yeah but by that reckoning your leaving yourself open to the PC brigade where ANYTHING can be offensive.


It's just political correctness gone mad, isn't it?


internetstalker said:


> I prefer the common sense route


Which is whatever you and your retarded* brother in law think it is?



internetstalker said:


> If my Welsh brother in law goes to bussiness meetings showing off his car with TAF5Y as the number plate proud as punch, then common sense tells me theres not much derogative about the term


First of all, 'derogative' isn't a word. It's 'derogatory'. 
Secondly, anyone with a personalised number plate shouldn't be trusted on matters of taste and decency.
Thirdly, even if he could be trusted, there's a clear and obvious difference between someone in a group who the word is applied to using that word, and someone from outside that group using it. See use of the word 'queer' by gay people, and use of the word 'nigga' by black people - all very different to the use of those words by straight white folk.

*Just so you don't think I'm from the PC brigade


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## Brockway (Apr 7, 2009)

Llantwit - the voice of reason! I'm going to try your approach one of these days.


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## Brockway (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> No I just don't regard Taffy as offensive.



Hey Tarquin, f**k off.


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## editor (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> If my Welsh brother in law goes to bussiness meetings showing off his car with TAF5Y as the number plate proud as punch
> 
> then common sense tells me theres not much derogative about the term


So when you hear a black rapper using the word "nigger" that means that it's just dandy for you to start singing derogatory songs at him peppered with the same word, yes?

Jeez. What a fucking idiot.


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

no need to call me an idiot or slag off my brother in law. especially when he can't defend himself

whats more I've said that I now realise the term Taff is a pejorative word.

But if you lot wanna ignore that then carry on, who's not fucking listening now???

At least I can read other peoples posts, take them on board and admit that I was wrong. I don't result to slagging off your members of your family when they're not here to defend themselves FFS guys he's been called 'retarded' thats bang out of order. Slagging me off is one thing but refering to my family as 'retarded' is low!!!

and your calling me the idiot!


BTW derogative IS a word


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

editor said:


> So when you hear a black rapper using the word "nigger" that means that it's just dandy for you to start singing derogatory songs at him peppered with the same word, yes?
> 
> Jeez. What a fucking idiot.



Expected a bit more out of you ed


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## 1927 (Apr 7, 2009)

DotCommunist said:


> How come you have to pay to get into wales but it's free to get out?



Because nobody would pay a fiver to get into England!


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## llantwit (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> no need to call me an idiot or slag off my brother in law. especially when he can't defend himself
> 
> whats more I've said that I now realise the term Taff is a pejorative word.
> 
> ...


Is retarded a derogative word?


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## internetstalker (Apr 7, 2009)

llantwit said:


> Is retarded a derogative word?




Whats your point?

I already accept that Taff/Taffy is Pejorative. So why call a member of my Family retarded??


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> Whats your point?
> 
> I already accept that Taff/Taffy is Pejorative. So why call a member of my Family retarded??






			
				llantwit said:
			
		

> Which is whatever you and your retarded* brother in law think it is?
> <snip>
> *Just so you don't think I'm from the PC brigade



try reading it a few times s-l-o-w-l-y  
or ask an older person to explain it to you


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## lewislewis (Apr 7, 2009)

We are one of the most constantly patronised peoples ever. That's what centuries of hanging on England's apron strings has done for us. It's about time for Adam Price to take over and win independence.


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## bendeus (Apr 8, 2009)

> TAFFY IS A WELSHMAN
> 
> Taffy is a Welshman, Taffy is no thief. Someone came to Taffy's house and stole a leg of beef.
> 
> ...



*
Alun Rees, 2005*

Shit thread, btw


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## llantwit (Apr 8, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> Whats your point?
> 
> I already accept that Taff/Taffy is Pejorative. So why call a member of my Family retarded??



Did I just land in the playground?
Alright, fair enough. The use of the 'R' word might have been out of order.
But it was said with irony, really, and wasn't meant to be personal in the way you suggest - you were coming across quite foolish, and your seemingly un-ironic use of hackneyed arguments invoking 'the PC brigade' and 'common sense' mark you out as fair game for some heavy ribbing in my book.
Of course I don't think you're brother in law is a retard. Why should I? I've never met him. Get over it.


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## Tankus (Apr 8, 2009)

I blame the Normans .. !


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## Tankus (Apr 8, 2009)

> join Date: Aug 2006
> Location: A Taff in the smoke
> Posts: 169



does this mean that I cant come back ?  arf


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## cesare (Apr 8, 2009)

Is he still fucking going on about it?


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## Herbert Read (Apr 8, 2009)

internetstalker said:


> It's nothing to do with where you or I come from, your just a prick full stop.
> 
> I'm surrounded by the Welsh, close Family and work colleagues.
> 
> ...


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## Herbert Read (Apr 8, 2009)

cesare said:


> The difference is that he can call himself that if he wants. Same as some Asian kids have taken to calling each other pakis.
> 
> It's entirely different if someone else uses the term. The recipient decides if they find loaded, derogatory terms offensive - not the person using them.


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## DuckQuack'sEcho (Apr 8, 2009)

In between internetstalker's thread shitting I got some good information. I'm glad my instincts are still sound.

Is there any rational reason why the Welsh are stereotyped by the English as 'dishonest' or is it just the usual dominant culture keeping another culture subdominant by subjugation through humiliation by generalisation?


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## DuckQuack'sEcho (Apr 8, 2009)

I meant to add that you can hear the tune the ditty is sung to if you go to this site and click on 'Play Song' near the top of the page. It's a catchy little tune if you only hear it once and didn't know it was attached to the vile, racist nursery rhyme.

http://www.kididdles.com/lyrics/t096.html


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## bendeus (Apr 8, 2009)

The chant was still being used in a derogatory way as recently as the C20th, in response to Lloyd George's National Insurance Bill of 1911. 



> After the Budget of 1909 David Lloyd George did not rest and in 1911 he brought his National Insurance Bill before the House. It was a measure intended to establish compulsory health and unemployment insurance schemes. It attracted much opposition from those with vested interests, from some on the left, and especially from the right. One aspect of the protest was an anti-stamp licking campaign which reached its climax with a Mistresses and Maids rally at the Albert Hall. After shouting "We won't pay!" and *"Taffy is a Welshman, Taffy is a thief!"*, the rally culminated in a speech by Lady Desart where she attacked Lloyd George violently and finished with her rallying cry, "England ... never did nor never shall lie at the proud foot of a conqueror." The measure was passed and became law and was implemented in the following years.



From here

LOL at 'Mistresses and Maids rally'. The mind boggles


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## bendeus (Apr 8, 2009)

DuckQuack'sEcho said:


> Is there any rational reason why the Welsh are stereotyped by the English as 'dishonest' or is it just the usual dominant culture keeping another culture subdominant by subjugation through humiliation by generalisation?



Yes.


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## DuckQuack'sEcho (Apr 8, 2009)

bendeus said:


> Yes.



Please elaborate.


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## bendeus (Apr 8, 2009)

Merely that there is no rational reason that I know of for the English to stereotype us as dishonest, and therefore the only conclusion must be that the origins of 'Taffy Was a Welshman' must lie in 'subjugation by humiliation through generalisation' as you so appositely put it.

A similar theme can be found in the infamous Treachery of the Blue Books . The Blue Books were a report into the state of education in Wales conducted by three English commisioners in 1847. Wiki tells us that they



> concluded that the Welsh were ignorant, lazy and immoral, and that among the causes of this were the use of the Welsh language and nonconformity



The theme of being racially immoral seems to have surfaced repeatedly; from Taffy was a Welshman, through the Blue Books and to the (still current) use of the word 'Welch' to denote failure to pay a gambling debt,


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