# The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

Now the the UK has 'left' the supra-state, perhaps it's time to move onto a new thread considering the negotiations to establish a new trading relationship with the 27?

Of course, the opening gambits will be negotiating positions, but did we expect the right party of capital to come out so 'no-dealy'?

Here is Chief Sec. to the Treasury, Rishi Sunak, on Sky this morning:



*"we don't need to [have a trade deal]"*


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 3, 2020)

They are basically keeping 'no deal' on the table as a negotiating tool.


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> They are basically keeping 'no deal' on the table as a negotiating tool.


The new (no) deal?


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The new (no) deal?



Yup, these lot only have one move and it's a fucking stupid one.

Johnson has come straight out of the blocks saying he'll get a free trade deal without any regulatory alignment. Which clearly the EU won't stand for.


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

According to Johnson:


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Johnson has come straight out of the blocks saying he'll get a free trade deal without any regulatory alignment. Which clearly the EU won't stand for.



Why not? 

The EU & the UK have both talked about a Canadian style free trade agreement, and that doesn't involve Canada following strict regulatory alignment with the EU.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 3, 2020)

GghhggggjxjxkxkxjckxkfCg


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yup, these lot only have one move and it's a fucking stupid one.
> 
> Johnson has come straight out of the blocks saying he'll get a free trade deal without any regulatory alignment. Which clearly the EU won't stand for.



The dynamics have changed.

The Tories have got a significant majority and the GE result has 'settled' the issue. This is commonly accepted by all parties and the EU will have no route via the HoC to undermine the British bargaining position. Similarly, the Tory remainers have been purged meaning the internal tensions within the Tory party can be better managed. 

The EU will come under pressure from member states that have a trading surplus with Britain (basically all of their key players) to maintain those arrangements and finally - and this is interesting - there will be Tories who _actively _want a deal not to happen and WTO rules to apply.Even the dogs on the street know this. 

I agree with you that for the EU the regulatory alignment circle has to be squared off in a way that doesn't encourage others to break away. But the EU negotiating hand is significantly weaker than it was on the 11th December. Basically, the EU have got some thinking to do. 

One other point. If Labour adopts a position indistinguishable from the EU, which I believe is the view of Starmer and Thornberry (I don't know what RLB or Nandy say about this) then it will be a further self-inflicted wound. If not now, when will Labour set out what a social democratic, internationalist Britain could look like?


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## bimble (Feb 3, 2020)

£10 to server fund if we don’t end up with no deal exit at end of the year.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 3, 2020)

The single market must be maintained


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2020)

I think the EU's desire not to _encourager les autres_ will win out in any clash of aims at their end. And at our end, well as we've seen over and over again the most reactionary aims always win over anything remotely pragmatic. So to avoid accepting EU standards we'll end up much poorer and also beholden to accept any old shit the Americans or Chinese want to foist upon us.


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I think the EU's desire not to _encourager les autres_ will win out in any clash of aims at their end. And at our end, well as we've seen over and over again the most reactionary aims always win over anything remotely pragmatic. So to avoid accepting EU standards we'll end up much poorer and also beholden to accept any old shit the Americans or Chinese want to foist upon us.


Essentially correct, ( & expounded in greater detail here), but Smokeandsteam makes the point, above, that it is the internal dynamics and division of both sides that make the process less predictable.

The negotiating team for supra-state may well focus on the desire not to _encourager les autres _and protect the single market, but the national forces within the 27 might well have other interests. And the Tory coalition of swivel-eyed fundies and even more swivel-eyed loons might well present Johnson with difficult political positioning.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> I think the EU's desire not to _encourager les autres_ will win out in any clash of aims at their end. And at our end, well as we've seen over and over again the most reactionary aims always win over anything remotely pragmatic. So to avoid accepting EU standards we'll end up much poorer and also beholden to accept any old shit the Americans or Chinese want to foist upon us.



It's a simple question for the EU and its member states- what is the most important the jobs and trade benefit from the trade surplus with Britain or regulatory alignment.

I think we would all agree that it's the latter than will ultimately win out, but that the weight of the former opens up the possibility of a more flexible approach than the technocrats would want. Put simply, would Macron _really _want to explain to French workers why he's pissed their jobs away on a point of principle.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> The dynamics have changed.
> 
> The Tories have got a significant majority and the GE result has 'settled' the issue. This is commonly accepted by all parties and the EU will have no route via the HoC to undermine the British bargaining position. Similarly, the Tory remainers have been purged meaning the internal tensions within the Tory party can be better managed.
> 
> ...



Absolutely true, but worth considering that by far the largest exporter to the UK is Germany. 

Netherlands is second but still some way behind. Would Germany and the Netherlands be prepared to accept a degree of economic disadvantage in order to go hard-line? I'm thinking particularly as Germany has been working hard to secure new markets for export goods (no idea about Netherlands).

Totally agree Labour need to get their heads around what they're going to say and can't simply stick with the same plan but I'm not holding my breath.


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's a simple question for the EU and its member states- what is the most important the jobs and trade benefit from the trade surplus with Britain or regulatory alignment.
> 
> I think we would all agree that it's the latter than will ultimately win out, but that the weight of the former opens up the possibility of a more flexible approach than the technocrats would want. Put simply, would Macron want to explain to French workers why he's pissed their jobs away on a point of principle.


And of course the same question applies to Johnson, but moreso cos the UK is far more beholden to the EU wrt trade than vice versa. While the political situation in the UK has clearly changed, power dynamics in play haven't changed. No deal fucks the UK harder than it fucks any single state in the EU.


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## Flavour (Feb 3, 2020)

The internal dynamics have changed in the UK politically but the EU was continuing to offer carrots before the last GE in the hope that a government more friendly to the EU might be formed and thus allow the EU to keep the UK "in line" without having to seem too much like the bad guy. Now Johnson has a majority and the gloves are off, they'll come off for the EU too: there's little danger is them seeming like the hardball arsehole negotiator, and Johnson is making their lives very easy by being such a hardballer himself. It's not difficult to see a "no deal" end to transition period, and while it would be quite damaging for the EU, I think they are more than prepared to accept that rather than back down and, as others have said, _encourager les autres _


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2020)

We should all be hoping the UK is kept as 'in line' as possible, btw. The alternative is really fucking shit. The alternative is worse standards and conditions. Let's not forget that - sticking to EU regulations over goods and services is overwhelmingly a _good thing_. Johnson isn't trying to break free of EU regulation so that he can initiate socialist policies.


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## two sheds (Feb 3, 2020)

I don't see how the EU could agree to any agricultural trade deal (for example) if the UK has different environmental and H&S standards. Would mean food with increased pesticide levels and the like entering Europe.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And of course the same question applies to Johnson, but moreso cos the UK is far more beholden to the EU wrt trade than vice versa. While the political situation in the UK has clearly changed, power dynamics in play haven't changed. No deal fucks the UK harder than it fucks any single state in the EU.



Britain's exports have been collapsing for a long time. In terms of EU Countries we only sell more to Ireland and Luxembourg than we buy:



			https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7851/CBP-7851.pdf
		


So it's not strictly the case that we are more beholden to the EU than vice versa. Most of their economies benefit from tariff free trade with us than we do with them.


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## cupid_stunt (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's a simple question for the EU and its member states- what is the most important the jobs and trade benefit from the trade surplus with Britain or regulatory alignment.
> 
> I think we would all agree that it's the latter than will ultimately win out, but that the weight of the former opens up the possibility of a more flexible approach than the technocrats would want. Put simply, would Macron _really _want to explain to French workers why he's pissed their jobs away on a point of principle.



I think a  more flexible approach will win out, the EU proposal is published, and as expected the term 'regulatory alignment' is not used, but what appears to a softer & looser 'regulatory cooperation', which is the sort of thing other countries have in their free trade deals, i.e. not required to follow every single new EU rule, but exports to the EU must remain within an acceptable level of standards and range of conditions. 



> While preserving the regulatory autonomy of the Parties, the envisaged partnership should include provisions to promote regulatory approaches that are transparent, efficient, compatible to the extent possible, and which promote avoidance of unnecessary regulatory requirements.





			https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/communication-annex-negotiating-directives.pdf


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Britain's exports have been collapsing for a long time. In terms of EU Countries we only sell more to Ireland and Luxembourg than we buy:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, it is. 50% of UK exports go to the EU. Less than 10% EU exports go to the UK. The UK is fucked by no deal many times more than any EU country. That hasn't changed, and it won't change.


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## two sheds (Feb 3, 2020)

Will be interesting to see whether EU fishing in UK waters will be traded away. Varadkar has said we may need to make concessions to get a financial services deal.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The internal dynamics have changed in the UK politically but the EU was continuing to offer carrots before the last GE in the hope that a government more friendly to the EU might be formed and thus allow the EU to keep the UK "in line" without having to seem too much like the bad guy. Now Johnson has a majority and the gloves are off, they'll come off for the EU too: there's little danger is them seeming like the hardball arsehole negotiator, and Johnson is making their lives very easy by being such a hardballer himself. It's not difficult to see a "no deal" end to transition period, and while it would be quite damaging for the EU, I think they are more than prepared to accept that rather than back down and, as others have said, _encourager les autres _



I think this is a fundamental misreading of the situation. The EU know the dynamics have shifted _against _them. Before the GE they had their supporters effectively in charge of the HoC. They had all of the parties expect the Tories calling for a second referendum and all calling for Remain. All of this is dead in the water now. The idea that now is the time for the EU to go on the front foot is baseless.

Johnson is not 'hardline' either. He's instinctively pro-EU and a deal. What he does also have to do however is manage and keep bound in as much as possible a constituency that is hardline and does not want a deal on any terms.


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## Supine (Feb 3, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Will be interesting to see whether EU fishing in UK waters will be traded away. Varadkar has said we may need to make concessions to get a financial services deal.



I'm pretty sure this will be a key moment when Brexiteers realise they won't be getting everything they were promised. It'll be one of the first things on the table and the UK already has more favorable terms than other countries.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, it is. 50% of UK exports go to the EU. Less than 10% EU exports go to the UK. The UK is fucked by no deal many times more than any EU country. That hasn't changed, and it won't change.



It's 43% and it's a falling share (down from 55% in 2006). Plus if you take, say, Germany about 7% of everything they make comes here and accounts for 3% of their GDP. The idea that this isn't significant and tariffs would be bump in the road is miles off the mark. 

But the wider point is this - a deal that provides flexibility within the broader regulatory framework overwhelmingly suits all parties. Ultras on both sides will want to attack this but the dynamic has sifted against them.


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

Useful FT piece about the challenges of a UK-US trade deal demonstrating one key driver of Johnson's 2020 deadline.


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## kabbes (Feb 3, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think a  more flexible approach will win out, the EU proposal is published, and as expected the term 'regulatory alignment' is not used, but what appears to a softer & looser 'regulatory cooperation', which is the sort of thing other countries have in their free trade deals, i.e. not required to follow every single new EU rule, but exports to the EU must remain within an acceptable level of standards and range of conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed.  For example, in my field, the EU have  declared that some other regimes (eg Bermuda, Switzerland) have “equivalence”.  It’s a completely different set of regulations to the strict ones we have to abide by, but the EU have pragmatically decided “good enough”


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## mauvais (Feb 3, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> I think a  more flexible approach will win out, the EU proposal is published, and as expected the term 'regulatory alignment' is not used, but what appears to a softer & looser 'regulatory cooperation', which is the sort of thing other countries have in their free trade deals, i.e. not required to follow every single new EU rule, but exports to the EU must remain within an acceptable level of standards and range of conditions.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How often is this true though? I don't think it's the case for cars, for example.


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## gosub (Feb 3, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed.  For example, in my field, the EU have  declared that some other regimes (eg Bermuda, Switzerland) have “equivalence”.  It’s a completely different set of regulations to the strict ones we have to abide by, but the EU have pragmatically decided “good enough”



Which field?   I'd probably gone with Australia as the equivalence example and the Mutual Recognition Agreement  they did with the EU is probably what should be aimed for in the short time frame


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## Yossarian (Feb 3, 2020)

Based on Johnson's previous history as a master statesman, he'll spent most of the year trying to play the EU and US off against each other like rival suitors, then splutter in outrage when they decide to run off together.


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## Raheem (Feb 3, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed.  For example, in my field, the EU have  declared that some other regimes (eg Bermuda, Switzerland) have “equivalence”.  It’s a completely different set of regulations to the strict ones we have to abide by, but the EU have pragmatically decided “good enough”


It's a mistake to assume that what's good for  one trading partner is good for another, though.

You have to wonder if a hidden part of the story is a small, inexperienced UK negotiating team, at odds with civil servants and as desperate as the EU to get an agreement signed, allowing itself to be misled by verbal reassurances from the other side. "Yeah, yeah, it will be just like Canada."


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Based on Johnson's previous history as a master statesman, he'll spent most of the year trying to play the EU and US off against each other like rival suitors, then splutter in outrage when they decide to run off together.


more of a master debater than a master statesman


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Raheem said:


> It's a mistake to assume that what's good for  one trading partner is good for another, though.
> 
> You have to wonder if a hidden part of the story is a small, inexperienced UK negotiating team, at odds with civil servants and as desperate as the EU to get an agreement signed, allowing itself to be misled by verbal reassurances from the other side. "Yeah, yeah, it will be just like Canada."


i wouldn't trust the uk negotiators to negotiate their way out of a paper bag


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Useful FT piece about the challenges of a UK-US trade deal demonstrating one key driver of Johnson's 2020 deadline.
> 
> View attachment 197476
> 
> View attachment 197475


northern ireland... the democrats said last year they wouldn't sign off on a trade deal if the uk was going to undermine the gfa, being as the usa is a guarantor of that deal.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> It's 43% and it's a falling share (down from 55% in 2006). Plus if you take, say, Germany about 7% of everything they make comes here and accounts for 3% of their GDP. The idea that this isn't significant and tariffs would be bump in the road is miles off the mark.
> 
> But the wider point is this - a deal that provides flexibility within the broader regulatory framework overwhelmingly suits all parties. Ultras on both sides will want to attack this but the dynamic has sifted against them.


i can readily imagine johnson snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. lest we forget, he's the man who returned with an even worse deal than theresa may got.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 3, 2020)

Is there any likelihood of TTIP getting resurrected? Seems like that would matter more than what the UK does.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is there any likelihood of TTIP getting resurrected? Seems like that would matter more than what the UK does.


certainly not in the near future, as every parish council in europe has to approve such a thing


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is there any likelihood of TTIP getting resurrected? Seems like that would matter more than what the UK does.


I think the only certainty in this shite is that the UK govt, with top talents such as Johnson, Raab, Javid, Patel, and Mogg to draw on, will make a total fucking mess of negotiating whatever it is they think they want.


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## gosub (Feb 3, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Based on Johnson's previous history as a master statesman, he'll spent most of the year trying to play the EU and US off against each other like rival suitors, then splutter in outrage when they decide to run off together.


Nah in that circumstance he'd probably forgive the Chinese for their fiendish rhubarb plot.


Tbf  he comes across a as more comfortable on the world stage than May ever did or Corbyn ever wiould


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2020)

gosub said:


> Nah in that circumstance he'd probably forgive the Chinese for their fiendish rhubarb plot.
> 
> 
> Tbf  he comes across a as more comfortable on the world stage than May ever did or Corbyn ever wiould


that's just because he has absolutely no sense of shame.


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## SpackleFrog (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> certainly not in the near future, as every parish council in europe has to approve such a thing



Does it? Thought it just needed ratification in EU Parliament.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

Latest LeFT statement below directly engages with some of the debate on this thread:


"As the dust settles after Britain formally left the EU on the 31st January, the task for socialists remains the same: to work to raise working class consciousness, and to arm our movement and our class with the necessary weapons in the struggle ahead. What context Britain outside the EU provides, and where the likely terrain for the battle will be, are questions we must seek to answer, and ones in which the LeFT Campaign aims to play a part.

Brexit Day is only a prelude to at the very least 11 months of Tory-EU negotiations to agree a new trading arrangement.

It’s very likely that this will provoke further crisis in Britain’s ruling class, as the Tories try to negotiate with Brussels and Washington simultaneously.

Regarding the latter, the mooted ambition is a trade deal with the US, but that is difficult, and is unlikely to happen before the presidential election in November. There are already signs of US-UK tensions, exacerbated by the furore over Huawei’s role in Britain’s 5G network.

Johnson wants to be free to engage in state investment. That requires a ‘Canada-plus deal with the EU.

This new vision, brought on by economic necessity and the wishes of a section of British capital, as well as by the political reality of how Johnson won his majority, is rather different from the delusional, harking back to empire vision beloved of Tory Brexiters in the European Research Group. This will potentially create further tensions in the UK’s first party of capital.

For its part, the EU doesn’t want to set up barriers to trade, or allow Britain to gain competitive advantage by using state aid for investment in key manufacturing sectors.

Pascal Lamy, former WTO Director General and EU Trade Commissioner, told the BBC this week that forthcoming negotiations between the EU and Britain will be the first in history where both parties began with frictionless trade and discuss what barriers to put up – and this is in the context of EU power brokers being historically opposed to such measures.

All this points to a set of contradictions that will provide an opportunity for the left, providing we fight Johnson with full knowledge of the context of the struggle, which is that we have a Tory government that is going to try and use its initial period to address, however inadequately, the concerns of the people who lent it their vote, while attacking trade unions and tacking further right on social issues and upping the ‘culture war’ that has so weakened political discourse and undermined class unity in recent years. In doing that it will embolden forces to its right, and worsen the racist hostile environment that it has done so much to foster.

Responding to that cannot mean arguing to keep alignment with the EU, as John McDonnell argued on the Andrew Marr show on Sunday 2 February. There are three principal problems with the position that he articulated:

1. It would stymie the parliamentary left and any future Labour government, and give succour to the left’s enemies, and those responsible for the election loss.

2. It fails to understand whatsoever the political context, and hopes for a future of rebuilding industry and prosperity in regions blighted by deindustrialisation and will help not one jot with rebuilding the left in the so-called ‘Red Wall’.

3. It is not going to happen. The Tories have a large majority. As is obvious from the lack of pressure coming from the corporate media, the People’s Vote campaign and even the ghosts of New Labour, much of British capital is confident that it can cope with whatever happens in post-Brexit Britain, providing the City of London’s banking and financial interests are kept safe.

We in Leave - Fight - Transform, the LeFT Campaign need to continue to make the case for what can be achieved outside the EU and to fight to rebuild the left in our communities in all of Britain.

The LeFT campaign:

Acknowledges that this will require a united left, one in which how people voted in 2016 does not define them. Remain and Leave are finished. This will require us to continue to make the correct analysis, both of the actual concrete reality of the EU, and of the tactics needed to rebuild an independent, fighting left.

Will fight for workers’ rights in post-Brexit Britain. As part of this, we will continue to make the case that our rights are not dependent upon workers’ relationship with the EU, but on the strength of our movement.

Will, in the context of a new and unpredictable terrain, fight for full social and political rights for migrant workers in Britain, demand an end to the discriminatory treatment of non-EU migrants to Britain and continue to call for an end to Fortress Europe. This is the path to international working class unity

Will build solidarity with the working class movement across other EU member states, in particular with socialists looking to develop a case for exiting.

Will develop a series of meetings and material for education for use both here and internationally: in the unions; in the workplace; in colleges and universities.

The EU has been hugely weakened by the loss of a tenth of its population and a sixth of its GDP, along with one of its most powerful military and diplomatic powers. What couldn’t be done has been done: a major country has broken with the largest trading bloc in history.

If we look to the debates taking place in the US, Bernie Sanders’ opposition to NAFTA has begun a conversation that it has been impossible to have in the UK (or anywhere in the EU) for generations. Now we can begin to have that debate, and to think about what the path to a transformed Britain and Europe looks like. It won’t be easy.

There are right wing governments throughout the bloc, and enemies everywhere. But the terrain is now open.

​


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

gosub said:


> Nah in that circumstance he'd probably forgive the Chinese for their fiendish rhubarb plot.
> 
> 
> Tbf  he comes across a as more comfortable on the world stage than May ever did or Corbyn ever wiould


i wonder if he'd be as comfortable on a scaffold


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## RTWL (Feb 3, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Is there any likelihood of TTIP getting resurrected? Seems like that would matter more than what the UK does.



Sister CETA seems to be rolling out 









						What is a 'Canada-style' trade deal?
					

Could the Canada-EU trade deal be a model for the UK's relationship with the EU after Brexit?



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed.  For example, in my field, the EU have  declared that some other regimes (eg Bermuda, Switzerland) have “equivalence”.  It’s a completely different set of regulations to the strict ones we have to abide by, but the EU have pragmatically decided “good enough”


FWIW, the Institute for Government claim that the Swiss, sector by sector type, agreements are increasingly unpopular with the supra-state precisely because they have the potential to undermine the SM without institutions for oversight:

*



			"The European Union has been more flexible with other countries – but access to the Single Market always comes with obligations

Click to expand...

*


> _The UK is right that there are precedents for deals in the “middle ground” between Norway and Canada. Contrary to the European Union’s (EU) frequent statement that no partial integration in the Single Market is possible, it has allowed some exceptions for non-EU countries. But where such arrangements exist, that access has carried strict obligations.
> 
> The agreements with Ukraine and other eastern neighbours provide for partial integration into the Single Market but tie market access rights to the adoption of EU rules and oversight by EU institutions. Even if this was attractive for the UK, the circumstances are different: Ukraine is moving towards the EU, while the UK has chosen to leave.
> 
> ...


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## gosub (Feb 3, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> that's just because he has absolutely no sense of shame.


Not disagreeing


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## brogdale (Feb 3, 2020)

Fucking moron.


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## Flavour (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think this is a fundamental misreading of the situation. The EU know the dynamics have shifted _against _them. Before the GE they had their supporters effectively in charge of the HoC. They had all of the parties expect the Tories calling for a second referendum and all calling for Remain. All of this is dead in the water now. The idea that now is the time for the EU to go on the front foot is baseless.
> 
> Johnson is not 'hardline' either. He's instinctively pro-EU and a deal. What he does also have to do however is manage and keep bound in as much as possible a constituency that is hardline and does not want a deal on any terms.



The EU know the dynamics have shifted against them with the Tory majority passing the Withdrawal Agreement they dictated? Hardly. Johnson is not pro-deal if it is bad for him in the eyes of his party and his voters, he doesn't have any firm opinions whatsoever, just a weathercock.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The EU know the dynamics have shifted against them with the Tory majority passing the Withdrawal Agreement they dictated? Hardly. Johnson is not pro-deal if it is bad for him in the eyes of his party and his voters, he doesn't have any firm opinions whatsoever, just a weathercock.


it's in the way of a misreading of the situation, as you say


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The EU know the dynamics have shifted against them with the Tory majority passing the Withdrawal Agreement they dictated? Hardly. Johnson is not pro-deal if it is bad for him in the eyes of his party and his voters, he doesn't have any firm opinions whatsoever, just a weathercock.



Is this the deal they dictated after they said the previous one could not be amended?

And if you think that the dynamics haven't shifted, that the EU are rubbing their hands at the developments since 11/12 and that they have happily noted the demise of the remain campaign and its cheerleaders within and outside the Tory Party then we'll just have to disagree.

As for Johnson, _all of the available evidence _(as opposed to the hapless analysis of the dregs of liberal remain) strongly indicates that he wants to be free to engage in state investment - that requires a ‘Canada-plus style deal with the EU. The model exists in other words.

Yes, he will come under pressure from the delusional, back to empire dregs of the Tory Party. But the idea that he'll simply go along with their vision is deluded.


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## not-bono-ever (Feb 3, 2020)

.


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## Raheem (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> And if you think that the dynamics haven't shifted, that the EU are rubbing their hands at the developments since 11/12...



"Rubbing their hands" would be an odd thing to say, but it had been clear to everyone for ages that there would at some point be a general election and Tory majority, so it's what they had planned for. It's not like it dropped unexpectedly and spoiled everything for them.


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## Smokeandsteam (Feb 3, 2020)

Raheem said:


> "Rubbing their hands" would be an odd thing to say, but it had been clear to everyone for ages that there would at some point be a general election and Tory majority



Was it?


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## MickiQ (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i wouldn't trust the uk negotiators to negotiate their way out of a paper bag


Even if they had a knife


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2020)

I thought brexit was oven ready and done.


I did not think it was oven ready and done or at this point over in my lifetime.


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i can readily imagine johnson snatching defeat out of the jaws of victory. lest we forget, he's the man who returned with an even worse deal than theresa may got.



No you see ignoring the vehement promises that the uk government could never put a border in the Irish Sea because it would be an act of surrender and treachery was actually a brilliant move.


And not say the blindingly obvious implication of the vote that was clear 4 years ago.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 3, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Is this the deal they dictated after they said the previous one could not be amended?



I'm by no means an expert but the difference between the WA negotiated by May and rejected 3 times, and the amended version eventually passed by Johnson, is fairly marginal. Didn't it all come down to the backstop / NI? And didn't the UK eventually accept there would be border checks between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively accepting that NI would, to all intents and purposes (especially as all NI residents have right to Irish citizenship) stay in the EU? I don't know what concessions the UK won from the EU, but that certainly doesn't seem to be much of one.


----------



## Smangus (Feb 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i wouldn't trust the uk negotiators to negotiate their way out of a paper bag



That's no way to talk about our plucky negotiators, taking on all comers against all odds and making a stand against the damned Boche!  Spirit of 1066 and all that , wot!​


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2020)

Smangus said:


> That's no way to talk about our plucky negotiators, taking on all comers against all odds and making a stand against the damned Boche!  Spirit of 1066 and all that
> , wot!


Yes, we showed the English what for that day.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2020)

But King Boris was a Bad King .


----------



## DexterTCN (Feb 3, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Will be interesting to see whether EU fishing in UK waters will be traded away. Varadkar has said we may need to make concessions to get a financial services deal.


Have a guess.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2020)

cod & chips


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Yes, we showed the English what for that day.


Now I'm really confused. 1 Never knew you were German 2 Not sure how much help Germans were to the southern Nor(s)mans


----------



## Raheem (Feb 4, 2020)

gosub said:


> Now I'm really confused. 1 Never knew you were German 2 Not sure how much help Germans were to the southern Nor(s)mans


True fact: I'm technically descended from the French family one of whose number killed Richard the Lionheart.

Technically, but not genetically, due to some extra-marital coitus in the 1800s.

I know this because of grave-visiting hobbyist granddad.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 4, 2020)

Raheem said:


> True fact: I'm technically descended from the French family one of whose number killed Richard the Lionheart.
> 
> Technically, but not genetically, due to some extra-marital coitus in the 1800s.
> 
> I know this because of grave-visiting hobbyist granddad.



Technically related and genetically related are the same thing. What you are is 'unrelated' to the family in question.

I on the other hand am a direct descendant of William the Bastard himself.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 4, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Technically related and genetically related are the same thing. What you are is 'unrelated' to the family in question.


Nonsense. There are all kinds of ways of being related. Like if someone else's nan makes you Duke of Sussex, for instance.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 4, 2020)

EU wishes 'good riddance' to UK as parting message gets lost in translation
					

The comic mix-up took place at the last ever meeting of EU ambassadors




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Thought 'good riddance' meant 'good luck' apparently. 

He could have tried 'So long and thanks for all the fish'


----------



## Azrael (Feb 4, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I'm by no means an expert but the difference between the WA negotiated by May and rejected 3 times, and the amended version eventually passed by Johnson, is fairly marginal. Didn't it all come down to the backstop / NI? And didn't the UK eventually accept there would be border checks between NI and the rest of the UK, effectively accepting that NI would, to all intents and purposes (especially as all NI residents have right to Irish citizenship) stay in the EU? I don't know what concessions the UK won from the EU, but that certainly doesn't seem to be much of one.


Doesn't, does it. Team Boris has, I gotta admit, done a standout job of selling the line that Al Johnson didn't just hand the E.U. everything it'd originally asked for, bringing back a far worse withdrawal agreement than May's.

No wonder Brussels are chilled about the election result: no only do they get everything they want, they get a government capable of hawking it domestically as a glorious victory.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2020)

Supra-state choosing to open it's negotiating stance by exerting pressure in the obvious quarters:


----------



## Flavour (Feb 11, 2020)

to the surprise of nobody


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 11, 2020)

“We want to leave but keep unrestricted access for our biggest economic sector”
“Um, no.”


“Totally unreasonable EU rejects our demands!”


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> He could have tried 'So long and thanks for all the fish'



Excellent, full marks


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 11, 2020)

It hasn't got a supra-state capital market unfortunately so "access" cuts both ways. e.g Germany has a longer tradition of raising bank capital and its largest bank Deutsche Bank is pretty much a basket-case. The market cap of Apple is now greater than the DAX 30 top 30 German public companies for example. afaik the main risk to London is losing busines to New York apart from its time zone advantage for round the clock trading


----------



## gosub (Feb 12, 2020)

Twelve Days After Brexit, U.K. Falls Foul of EU Rules
					

Less than two weeks after leaving the European Union, the U.K. is already back in trouble with the bloc.




					www.bloomberg.com
				





This could be a major problem. The rax was introduced because of the advantage cheaper continental diesel gave for picking up domestic work once over here.  If Commission want to go down this route then only logical next step is removal of cabotage rights which will cause logistics nightmares for everyone at the end of the transition


----------



## ska invita (Feb 12, 2020)

Really good summary of where we're at here - from what I can tell its a good summarisation:




__





						Here we go again - Weekly Worker
					

Red lines, cliff edges, friction, no deal, hard Brexit … Eddie Ford gets a sense of déjà vu.




					weeklyworker.co.uk
				




That piece is all mainly documenting current realities as reported more widely, but it does include this one personal projection of the future:

"Whatever exactly happens, it looks like we are going to get something that Boris always denied - not frictionless trade, but _frictional_ trade. One consequence of this is that it is almost all over for the British car industry, but that was possibly the case even before Brexit, due to the trade deal between EU and Japan - plus the advent of electric cars and massive consolidation at a _global_ level. Japanese car firms opened up in Britain not just because of supine trade unions, thanks to Margaret Thatcher, but also - more importantly still - as it represented a gateway to Europe. This is no longer case, with a hard Brexit acting as the final nail in the coffin. "


----------



## brogdale (Feb 13, 2020)

> Meanwhile, diplomatic relations between Donald Trump and his "friend" Boris Johnson have cooled significantly in recent weeks.
> 
> The cooling followed the prime minister's decision in January to let Chinese telecoms giant Huawei build its 5G network, despite intensive lobbying from the US amid security concerns.
> 
> Trump was said to have been "apoplectic" during a phone call with Johnson last week after the decision was announced, and he was reported to have ended the call by "slamming the phone down," according to officials in the room. The prime minister has delayed his imminent trip to Washington.



source


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2020)

And...we're back in the game...



Who'd have thought that the French would kick off?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 198403
> 
> 
> 
> source


as i said elsewhere will be interesting to see what effect it will have if Sanders wins the white house


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 24, 2020)

Sanders is not going to get near the White House


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 24, 2020)

Bloomberg will do a deal. He's a real Anglophile.


----------



## gosub (Feb 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> And...we're back in the game...
> 
> View attachment 199644
> 
> Who'd have thought that the French would kick off?


Tough one Read the latest Guardian leak and they can jog on if that's anything other opening haggling position. And Macron can doubley jog on if he. isn't going to represent on behalf of his fishermen, coz they can and have blockaded.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 24, 2020)

A good example of just how utterly pointless the EU can be:









						EU rule means you will need insurance for ride-on lawnmowers and tractors
					

Boris Johnson urged to scrap law which leaves homeowners facing prosecution for driving any 'vehicle' without insurance on own property




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 25, 2020)

Can someone please just ban this vile cunt?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 25, 2020)

He has legitimate concerns about lawn mowers


----------



## two sheds (Feb 25, 2020)

Yeh just wait till he's run down by a lawnmower, blades on them give nasty cuts. Then he'll change his mind.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> He has legitimate concerns about lawn mowers



Not sure why the EU are deeming insurance is required for lawnmowers and golf carts when used on private property (which they are primarily used for) tho?


----------



## Shechemite (Feb 25, 2020)

Who the fuck owns a golf cart


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 25, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Not sure why the EU are deeming insurance is required for lawnmowers and golf carts when used on private property (which they are primarily used for) tho?







__





						BBC News - Ride-on lawnmowers 'injure thousands every year'
					






					news.bbc.co.uk
				




"These aren't accidents, their throwing themselves into the lawn!"


----------



## Smangus (Feb 25, 2020)

Be interesting to see how Boris's cavalier approach to the Irish border is recieved in Washington. That might scupper any deal he wants.


----------



## editor (Feb 25, 2020)

For fuck's sake. This wasn't on the side of the cunty bullshitting bus



> Brexit is set to have cost the UK more than £200 billion in lost economic growth by the end of this year — a figure that almost eclipses the total amount the UK has paid toward the European Union budget over the past 47 years.
> 
> According to research by Bloomberg Economics, the cost of the UK's vote to leave has already reached £130 billion, with a further £70 billion likely to be added by the end of 2020.
> 
> ...











						Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together
					

Brexit has already cost the UK £130 billion in lost growth since 2016, research by Bloomberg found.




					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

skyscraper101 said:


> Bloomberg will do a deal. He's a real Anglophile.


but will congress ratify it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 25, 2020)

editor said:


> For fuck's sake. This wasn't on the side of the cunty bullshitting bus
> 
> 
> 
> ...


it was on the bottom where the small print was

e2a: it just fulfils this 2016 prediction

Economy, The Economic Consequences of Brexit: A Taxing Decision


----------



## brogdale (Feb 25, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> it was on the bottom where the small print was
> 
> e2a: it just fulfils this 2016 prediction
> View attachment 199789
> Economy, The Economic Consequences of Brexit: A Taxing Decision


Project fear.....somely accurate prediction.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 26, 2020)

I am shocked, shocked I tell you.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I am shocked, shocked I tell you.




I am not, because I remember reading some weeks ago about a new scheme coming in, which will focus payments on work that enhances the environment, such as tree or hedge planting, river management to mitigate flooding, and/or creating habitats. 

The cuts will start with a reduction of 5 percent for the smallest farmers, with the largest & richest landowners taking the biggest hit initially, even those will not actually see a 25% reduction, as the reductions are across four bands & it's only any amount over £150,000 that are reduced by 25% - see link below - and savings will be directed to the new Environmental Land Management (ELM) scheme. 









						Defra confirms reductions in support for farmers - Farmers Weekly
					

Basic Payments will be reduced by 5-25% next year for farmers in England, the government has confirmed. Farmers who receive up to £30,000 will see their




					www.fwi.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Feb 27, 2020)

Ooooh...hardball!


----------



## 2hats (Feb 27, 2020)

No trade deal eh? As oppose to no deal trade?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 27, 2020)

Hardballing from a position of absolute weakness, yeah that'll definitely work.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2020)

The EU must be shitting themselves.   



> The UK’s negotiating mandate asks that:
> 
> • A liberalised market for trade in goods, with no tariffs, fees, charges or quantitative restrictions on trade in manufactured or agricultural products.
> • Competition and subsidies should not be subject to the final agreement’s dispute resolution mechanism, which had been previously signalled in the political declaration.
> ...











						UK says it will consider walking away from Brexit talks in June
					

Negotiating mandate reveals Johnson seeks Canada-style deal and ‘regulatory freedom’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 27, 2020)

Bullshit posturing by faux  hard men and randist advisors.

Lol

What a fucking toilet this place is


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 27, 2020)

The whole thing has brought back memories of the macho mob antics of the posh rugby club at university. I fucking hate rugby union to this day because of it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 27, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Bullshit posturing by faux  hard men and randist advisors.
> 
> Lol
> 
> What a fucking toilet this place is


Indeed, but the EU are being no better.  Insisting the UK has to have a more restrictive set of requirements than other countries because it is physically closer by?  That’s just as pathetic.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Feb 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed, but the EU are being no better.  Insisting the UK has to have a more restrictive set of requirements than other countries because it is physically closer by?  That’s just as pathetic.



Indeed, they offered a Canada plus deal, now they are suggesting a Canada minus deal.

Opening shots from both sides, TBH.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2020)

Interesting article:



> Last week Google notified users that “because the UK is leaving the EU, we’ve updated our terms so that a United States-based company, Google LLC, is now your service provider instead of Google Ireland Limited. We’ve also changed our privacy policy to make Google LLC the data controller responsible for your information and for complying with applicable privacy laws.”
> 
> This makes sense. There is no reason why two countries that are not in the EU should store data in an EU country. It would be much better, of course, if Google stored UK data in the UK. However, now we are just one of dozens of small countries, it may be hard to justify the cost.
> 
> Other online service providers may well make the same decision, after weighing the financial, commercial and legal costs of storing UK users’ data locally.











						Can I move my data to the EU before Google shifts it to the US?
					

Post-Brexit, Sean wants to keep his data protected by the EU’s GDPR rather than laxer US privacy laws




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Interesting article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never knew it was so complicated , however Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp, Instagram all store data in the US and I cant see UK users suddenly deleting their accounts and abandoning them on the discovery that they are not EU compliant, can ypu ?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 27, 2020)

Some of us wouldn't need to  

/smug


----------



## brogdale (Feb 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew it was so complicated , however Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp, Instagram all store data in the US and I cant see UK users suddenly deleting their accounts and abandoning them on the discovery that they are not EU compliant, can ypu ?


Maybe not, but anything that might help folk to make such decisions must, at least, have some merit.


----------



## editor (Feb 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Never knew it was so complicated , however Facebook, Twitter, WhatsApp, Instagram all store data in the US and I cant see UK users suddenly deleting their accounts and abandoning them on the discovery that they are not EU compliant, can ypu ?


Of course not, but the point is that it may be of come concern as the article points out: 



> UK data is covered by the Data Protection Act 2018, which is the UK’s version of the EU’s GDPR (General Data Protection Regulation). One problem is that the UK may lower its data protection and privacy standards to US levels, along with our food and other standards, as part of a US trade deal. Another problem is that even if we maintain EU-level regulations, there is no guarantee that the US will observe them. Given Trump’s actions since taking the US presidency, it is hard to imagine that the situation has improved since Edward Snowden shocked us with his revelations.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 27, 2020)

" Edward Snowden shocked us with his revelations."

Hardly.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed, but the EU are being no better.  Insisting the UK has to have a more restrictive set of requirements than other countries because it is physically closer by?  That’s just as pathetic.



EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.


----------



## editor (Feb 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.


Although it's early, I think it'll be pretty hard to topple this from the top of the Stupidest Posts Of The Day listings. The UK has never been a 'servant taking orders,' and its negotiating clout is a whole lot smaller now that we're out of the union.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Although it's early, I think it'll be pretty hard to topple this from the top of the Stupidest Posts Of The Day listings. The UK has never been a 'servant taking orders,' and its negotiating clout is a whole lot smaller now that we're out of the union.


not to mention the uk has a dearth of experienced negotiators.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.


Based on what metric(s) do you make the claim that the EU & UK are negotiating on "equal terms"?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.



EU population, 512 million. UK 70 million
EU gdp, 18.8 trillion, UK 2.8 trillion

The look on your face when sovereignty can’t buy you exclusive access priceless


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Although it's early, I think it'll be pretty hard to topple this from the top of the Stupidest Posts Of The Day listings. The UK has never been a 'servant taking orders,' and its negotiating clout is a whole lot smaller now that we're out of the union.



If that were the case then Macron wouldn’t be begging the U.K. to allow french fishermen a 25yr extension to our fishing territories.

Equally, Barnier wouldn’t be blowing hot and cold every 5mins - he certainly seems to have changed his tune now Boris has threatened to walk away early if they continue with their stupidity - the geographical proximity bs being prime example.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> EU population, 512 million. UK 70 million
> EU gdp, 18.8 trillion, UK 2.8 trillion
> 
> The look on your face when sovereignty can’t buy you exclusive access priceless



What’s our trade deficit with the EU?


----------



## Poot (Feb 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Although it's early, I think it'll be pretty hard to topple this from the top of the Stupidest Posts Of The Day listings.


And yet...


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.


The "We'll walk away if there isn't enough progress" is BoZo grandstanding for a domestic audience and clearly it is working, give the man his due when it comes to uniting people behind slogans, he clearly has a gift for it. 
Since he is the sole arbiter of this decision, not the people the tabloids or indeed even the Cabinet, it is a meaningless statement to whip up emotions.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The "We'll walk away if there isn't enough progress" is BoZo grandstanding for a domestic audience and clearly it is working, give the man his due when it comes to uniting people behind slogans, he clearly has a gift for it.
> Since he is the sole arbiter of this decision, not the people the tabloids or indeed even the Cabinet, it is a meaningless statement to whip up emotions.



I’d say BJ was just telling the EU to fuck off with their childish threats.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 28, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I’d say BJ was just telling the EU to fuck off with their childish threats.
> 
> View attachment 200030


And you don't think that's grandstanding as well? there is going to be a lot of this in the coming months from both sides as they get down to talking.
I'm fairly confident that is one thing that BoZo will give way on, the fishing industry is simply too small compared to finance, banking or manufacturing for him not to sell them down the river (no pun intended) at some point.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> And you don't think that's grandstanding as well? there is going to be a lot of this in the coming months from both sides as they get down to talking.
> I'm fairly confident that is one thing that BoZo will give way on, the fishing industry is simply too small compared to finance, banking or manufacturing for him not to sell them down the river (no pun intended) at some point.



I certainly hope not - Govt is taking a hard stance on their position.


----------



## andysays (Feb 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Although it's early, I think it'll be pretty hard to topple this from the top of the Stupidest Posts Of The Day listings. The UK has never been a 'servant taking orders,' and its negotiating clout is a whole lot smaller now that we're out of the union.


You clearly haven't been following Marty1's posting record that closely. I have every confidence in his ability to post something even more stupider before the day is out.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2020)

andysays said:


> You clearly haven't been following Marty1's posting record that closely. I have every confidence in his ability to post something even more stupider before the day is out.


God loves  a trier


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 28, 2020)

andysays said:


> You clearly haven't been following Marty1's posting record that closely. I have every confidence in his ability to post something even more stupider before the day is out.



You’ve just won.


----------



## editor (Feb 29, 2020)

Great stuff! Jobs for all!









						UK races to find extra 50,000 staff for post-Brexit paperwork
					

New recruits needed to process millions of extra declaration forms from 1 January 2021




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Feb 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Indeed, but the EU are being no better.  Insisting the UK has to have a more restrictive set of requirements than other countries because it is physically closer by?  That’s just as pathetic.


No it isn’t. It's just bloody obvious. I had the impression you prided yourself on an understanding of economics.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 29, 2020)

Raheem said:


> No it isn’t. It's just bloody obvious. I had the impression you prided yourself on an understanding of economics.



Didn’t Barnier say we could have a Canada style free trade deal - then say we couldn’t because we were too close?

Its hard to keep up with Barnier’s hot and cold routine but he’s being nice now that the govt has said we could walk away from trade negotiations in June if Barnier and his EU stooges don’t drop their hissy fits and delusions.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Didn’t Barnier say we could have a Canada style free trade deal - then say we couldn’t because we were too close?


Maybe, possibly, but who gives a fart? 

It's absurd to suppose that the UK can trade with the EU on the same terms as Canada, from any perspective. It's pure pantomime.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 29, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Maybe, possibly, but who gives a fart?
> 
> It's absurd to suppose that the UK can trade with the EU on the same terms as Canada, from any perspective. It's pure pantomime.



Wtf?


----------



## Raheem (Feb 29, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Wtf?


Sorry. I can stick to saying things you can understand, if you would prefer.


----------



## Marty1 (Feb 29, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Sorry. I can stick to saying things you can understand, if you would prefer.



You’ve yet to explain anything apart from you couldn’t give a ‘fart’.

Sleep it off mate, you’ll feel better in the morning.


----------



## Supine (Feb 29, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Sorry. I can stick to saying things you can understand, if you would prefer.



You'd better use some really simple words


----------



## two sheds (Feb 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Great stuff! Jobs for all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And really important, productive jobs too. Lets get rid of all the EU red tape


----------



## brogdale (Feb 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Great stuff! Jobs for all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_"We are all Keynesians now"_


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2020)

Another total win for Brexit and the UK!



> The economic benefit from a trade deal with the US may be as little as 0.02 per cent of GDP – around 450 times smaller than the potential loss from a no-deal Brexit - according to the government's own figures.
> 
> A negotiating mandate released by the Department for International Trade put the expected increase in UK GDP from a successful deal at between 0.02 per cent and 0.36 per cent, depending on the scope and depth of any accord.











						Boost to UK economy from US trade deal could be 450 times smaller than loss from no-deal Brexit
					

Official document puts likely benefits of free trade agreement with Donald Trump at below 0.2 per cent of GDP – and possibly as little as 0.02 per cent




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2020)

Interesting twitter thread from Telegraph journo about the (apparent) growing concern amongst the big food retailers about the costs associated with compliance with the GB/NI 'border'. Don't know enough to vouch for veracity, but it raises some interesting points:


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2020)

Was alerted to the above by this from Faisal Islam...which says that Defra appear to be reluctant to address the retailers concerns.


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2020)

The Post Office has highlighted another amazing WIN we'll all be getting from Brexit 



> Sending parcels to the EU
> If the UK leaves the EU without an agreement, the rules for posting items to the EU will change.
> 
> We expect the rules which apply to non-EU countries to be extended to EU countries, which would mean customs declaration forms would be required for items being sent to all countries outside the UK. For more information see our customs page.







__





						Brexit information | Post Office®
					

As the transition period ends, there will be changes to some of our products and services. Find out what this might mean for you and how you can continue to use our services as normal.




					www.postoffice.co.uk


----------



## editor (Mar 3, 2020)

Great news. New jobs!



> *Border red tape will mean 50,000 new form-fillers after Brexit*
> 
> 
> Michael Gove has endorsed claims that up to 50,000 people will have to be recruited to carry out customs paperwork under the government’s preferred Canada-style trade deal with the EU — the equivalent of the population of a medium-sized town. The Cabinet Office minister was on Thursday pressed by businesses that send goods across borders to provide more cash to help them recruit and train the army of form-fillers needed to process the red tape spawned when Britain exits the transition period on January 1 2021.
> ...





> “We are leaving the single market and the customs union,” a government official said. “Businesses that trade with the EU need to get ready for new customs procedures now.”
> 
> The Road Haulage Association has estimated that a Canada-style trade deal — which would eliminate most tariffs but would still involve customs declarations — could lead to an extra 200m declarations a year.
> 
> ...







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2020)

Negotiations aren't going so well, then: 



> Britain must respect the EU's "independence" and accept that the bloc has its own red-lines in trade talks, the bloc's chief negotiator has warned Boris Johnson.
> 
> Michel Barnier was speaking in Brussels at the close of the first round of Brexit trade negotiations, where he warned that "very, very difficult" differences were emerging between both sides with the clock ticking down.
> 
> "Let’s avoid any misunderstandings: the UK has spent a lot of time this week insisting on its independence: ladies and gentlemen, nobody contests the UK’s independence. We also ask the UK to respect our own independence," Mr Barnier said.





> Giving a review of the first week's talks, the chief negotiator said the UK was refusing to sign a commitment to stay in the European Convention on Human Rights, as well as rejecting an agreement tying it to "high standards" for labour, environmental, and state aid regulations.
> 
> "The United Kingdom informs us that they do not wish to commit formally to applying the European Convention on Human Rights," Mr Barnier said.











						EU tells UK to respect its independence
					

Chief negotiator Michel Barnier says ‘the EU sets its own conditions for opening up its markets for goods and services’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 5, 2020)

Early stages, both sides putting their foot down, as expected.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Early stages, both sides putting their foot down, as expected.


Its almost as if some people have never been involved in negotiations .


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> EU wankers still haven’t got their bureaucratic heads around the fact that the U.K. is now a third party negotiating on equal terms rather than a servant taking orders.


Negotiating on equal terms 

Only the eu has negotiators who can negotiate and the UK has blustering buffoons


----------



## Raheem (Mar 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Its almost as if some people have never been involved in negotiations .


That would be the British negotiators.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Its almost as if some people have never been involved in negotiations .


Take the point completely, but in reality I doubt many people have been, at least in the formal scenario.
As a former 'shoppie' and district officer, I have...but then again, I've never experienced a negotiation that I deliberately wanted to fail.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Negotiating on equal terms
> 
> Only the eu has negotiators who can negotiate and the UK has blustering buffoons


Obviously havent been following the EU budget negotiations .


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 5, 2020)

Johnson has no interest in coming to agreement with the EU. It will all be the fault of the EU when it crash and burns &  we will finally be free etc etc. The public setting of red lines and the language of the Brits in this is telling. Bang in some  euro-virus and we have a perfect excuse to tumble out and claim we won


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 5, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Obviously havent been following the EU budget negotiations .


That's different being as budget negotiations not usually undertaken by trade negotiators, who are the people our nefandous politicians will be dealing with


----------



## not-bono-ever (Mar 5, 2020)

There is real incompetence here as well, criminal and wilful negligence.


----------



## editor (Mar 5, 2020)

Some of my film friends are getting pissed off about this as it's likely Brexit is going to have a hugely negative impact on UK independent film industry.



> Following the publication of the Government’s EU negotiation mandate on 27 February 2020, it has become clear that the UK will not be seeking to participate in the next Creative Europe MEDIA programme, due to start in January 2021. The BFI believes there is a clear economic case for continuing to support UK independent film internationally across the ecosystem. We will be talking to Government urgently about the need to provide swift replacement funding as we recognise that this will immediately impact on our industry and business. The BFI has released a statement here.











						Creative Europe
					

Creative Europe is the European Union’s funding programme for the audiovisual industry and creative sectors.




					www.bfi.org.uk
				



BFI statement here: https://www.bfi.org.uk/sites/bfi.org.uk/files/downloads/ben-roberts-bfi-brexit-statement-2020.pdf


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2020)

Over four fucking billion.


> Government departments spent more than £4bn on preparations for leaving the EU, says the public spending watchdog.
> 
> The National Audit Office said this figure included spending on staff, external advice and advertising.
> 
> ...





> Advertising, building new systems and other services cost at least £1.5bn - this included spending £283m to build the EU settlement scheme and £69m on Operation Brock, a traffic management system to be used in Kent in the event of a no-deal Brexit.


And how's this for a total waste of money:


> The £1.5bn also covered the £46m spent on the government's "Get ready for Brexit" campaign. Earlier this year the NAO said it was "not clear that the campaign led to the public being significantly better prepared".











						Brexit: Preparations cost government more than £4bn says watchdog
					

In October last year, 22,000 civil servants were working on Brexit, the public spending watchdog said.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Over four fucking billion.



Covered by savings on our EU membership in about 6 months.


----------



## editor (Mar 6, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Covered by savings on our EU membership in about 6 months.


Guaranteed! 

But hold on - I thought all those savings were going to the NHS. So it's £4bn less for the NHS, then?


----------



## Raheem (Mar 6, 2020)

If we've only spent 4 billion on preparing, we're probably pretty fucked.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Mar 7, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If we've only spent 4 billion on preparing, we're probably pretty fucked.



Not to worry we’ve lost a mint from the almighty gdp as well.


----------



## editor (Mar 9, 2020)

This is what the people voted for! Oh, wait...


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 201138
> 
> This is what the people voted for! Oh, wait...



Have a nap


----------



## editor (Mar 9, 2020)

MadeInBedlam said:


> Have a nap


So you're OK with that central, core promise of the Leave campaign being discarded while prescription charges go up?


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2020)

editor said:


> So you're OK with that central, core promise of the Leave campaign being discarded while prescription charges go up?



Yes I’m delighted about it.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 9, 2020)

editor said:


> Some of my film friends are getting pissed off about this as it's likely Brexit is going to have a hugely negative impact on UK independent film industry.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Could be an indian summer for carry on films


----------



## editor (Mar 9, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Could be an indian summer for carry on films


Making Britain Great Again.


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 9, 2020)

editor said:


> Making Britain Great Again.



Confessions of a hard border smuggler


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2020)

I know what EU did last summer


----------



## Proper Tidy (Mar 9, 2020)

Honey, I shrunk the economy


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 9, 2020)

What a carve up (contemporary geopolitics is)!


----------



## editor (Mar 12, 2020)

Well there you go.



> The Treasury has confirmed that it will not be getting an extra £350 million a week after Britain stops paying into the EU budget, despite false claims by Brexiteers during the referendum.
> 
> Britain is in fact expected to be overall poorer by £1,200 per person because of Brexit's economic drag, according to the government's spending watchdog.
> 
> ...











						Treasury figures from Budget confirm there was no £350m a week Brexit dividend
					

Brexit has in fact cost every person in the UK £1,200 so far, spending watchdog says – as economy flat-lines




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Shechemite (Mar 12, 2020)

And to think we were all fooled


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2020)

Freeeeeeedom to not participate in joint procurement deals for the good of the population! 



> *No 10 in U-turn over EU-wide ventilator procurement scheme*
> Just as the press conference was about to start, Downing Street announced what amounts to a U-turn over participating in the EU-wide effort to procure ventilators and other medical equipment. A Downing Street spokesman said:
> 
> 
> ...











						UK Covid-19 death toll reaches 578 after biggest recorded daily rise – as it happened
					

Chancellor Rishi Sunak announces new measures for self-employed; police get new powers to enforce lockdown - as it happened




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> Freeeeeeedom to not participate in joint procurement deals for the good of the population!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thought you'd have commented on the way they seem to have missed the email inviting the government to participate


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Thought you'd have commented on the way they seem to have missed the email inviting the government to participate


All part of the same clusterfuck to me.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> Freeeeeeedom to not participate in joint procurement deals for the good of the population!



And, that was so helpful when Italy begged for supplies a few weeks ago, and got nothing from the EU or any member states, only China stepped in to support them.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, that was so helpful when Italy begged for supplies a few weeks ago, and got nothing from the EU or any member states, only China stepped in to support them.


I'm not sure of the full story with Italy, but I'd rather the UK be included in this procurement scheme, even if it's by the skin of our transitional period teeth. How about you?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm not sure of the full story with Italy, but I'd rather the UK be included in this procurement scheme, even if it's by the skin of our transitional period teeth. How about you?



I couldn't give a flying fuck about the EU, they are turning their backs on the likes of Italy & Spain, just like they did after the financial crash.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> I couldn't give a flying fuck about the EU, they are turning their backs on the likes of Italy & Spain, just like they did after the financial crash.


It's not about giving a fuck about the EU right now. It's about being on the inside or the outside of this procurement scheme.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> It's not about giving a fuck about the EU right now. It's about being on the inside or the outside of this procurement scheme.



Which has been working so well for the likes of Italy & Spain.


----------



## editor (Mar 26, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Which has been working so well for the likes of Italy & Spain.


I'll try again. Would you rather the UK be on the inside or the outside of this procurement scheme?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 26, 2020)

editor said:


> I'll try again. Would you rather the UK be on the inside or the outside of this procurement scheme?


I'll answer. Inside. But cs also has a point. The EU has been nowhere in this, and cooperation/mutual aid (including from the UK - no reason to expect the UK not to pitch in as this is a Europe thing, not an EU thing) has been pretty lacking.


----------



## BobDavis (Mar 27, 2020)

Both Barnier & Frost have coronavirus.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'll try again. Would you rather the UK be on the inside or the outside of this procurement scheme?



Personally I am not bothered, because I don't see the EU as any sort of answer to this, but then again I am not in a band that may find it a little harder to tour in Europe, yet seems to have no problems in touring in the US.

The EU is in chaos, so much for being one big happy family, helping each other out, when push comes to shove, it's every country for themselves.



> European leaders have clashed over how to pull their economies through the coronavirus crisis, as Italy accused other member states of a timid response to an unprecedented economic shock.
> 
> Meeting via a video link, the EU’s 27 leaders papered over deep divisions by agreeing that another fortnight was needed to discuss ambitious economic recovery plans. After a testy debate over “coronabonds”, i.e raising funds through issuing shared European debt, the bloc kicked a decision down the road, by calling on EU finance leaders to present proposals within two weeks.
> 
> ...



Bunch of fucking Muppets.


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Personally I am not bothered, because I don't see the EU as any sort of answer to this, but then again I am not in a band that may find it a little harder to tour in Europe, yet seems to have no problems in touring in the US.


That pathetic personal dig has got precisely _fuck all _to do with the topic under discussion. Grow the fuck up.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Mar 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Grow the fuck up.



Perhaps you could do the same?


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2020)

cupid_stunt said:


> Perhaps you could do the same?


Come on. Stop this. You know you were wrong to have an unnecessary dig at my personal life in a discussion about the EU and the coronavirus crisis.


----------



## editor (Mar 27, 2020)

Arse/elbow/bullshit etc 



> Brussels has rejected UK government claims that an “initial communication problem” meant that Britain missed out on participating in the joint procurement of ventilators, insisting that the UK was fully briefed on the plans.
> 
> Prime Minister Boris Johnson’s government is under pressure over its decision to stay outside several EU-wide tenders for vital medical equipment at a time when Britain is desperately trying to add to its supply of ventilators to tackle the coronavirus pandemic. On Thursday, a UK government spokesman blamed the situation on a misunderstanding with Brussels, saying that Britain “did not receive an invitation in time to join in”.
> 
> But Brussels rubbished that claim on Friday, saying the plans — which were publicly announced weeks ago — had been clearly set out to Britain and other governments.   A spokesman for the European Commission said: “The member states’ needs for personal protective equipment have been discussed several times in the meetings of the Health Security Committee, where the UK participated. “At these meetings, the commission stressed its readiness to further support countries with the procurement of medical countermeasures if needed; so member states and the UK had the opportunity to signal their interest to participate in any joint procurements.”







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## andysays (Mar 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Arse/elbow/bullshit etc



Whatever the truth about the reasons Britain won't be part of the EU joint procurement of ventilators, as cupid_stunt suggested the EU itself isn't looking too united over this and other issues ATM

Coronavirus: Can EU get a grip on crisis?


> EU leaders meeting on Thursday - by socially-distant video conference - glaringly failed to agree to share the debt they are all racking up fighting Covid-19.





> What leaders did agree on was asking Eurogroup finance ministers to explore the subject further, reporting back in two weeks' time. Two weeks. The EU is famous for kicking difficult decisions down the road but in coronavirus terms, with spiralling infection and death rates, two weeks feels like an eternity.





> *President Emmanuel Macron of France is said to have told leaders the political reaction after the crisis could spell the end of the EU.*


Given all of this, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say it doesn't really matter whether Britain is part of the EU joint procurement of ventilators or not


----------



## editor (Mar 28, 2020)

To no one's surprise: 


> Some farms were struggling even before the crisis hit. A tightening of the labour market, a combination of Brexit and the booming domestic economies of eastern Europe proving more attractive to seasonal workers, had seen a decline in the number of fruit and vegetable pickers coming to the UK.
> 
> “Because of the tightening of labour, we had already lost a percentage of farms,” Maurel said. “This will finish others off. You won’t have fruit and veg in shops. Asparagus and beans start in a couple of weeks, cucumbers early April, tomatoes are all year round; in May it’s soft fruits – strawberries, raspberries; lettuces have been in the ground since December.”











						Fruit and veg ‘will run out’ unless Britain charters planes to fly in farm workers from eastern Europe
					

UK urgently needs to fill 90,000 positions to pick crops that will otherwise die in the fields, warns charity




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## William of Walworth (Mar 28, 2020)

andysays said:


> Whatever the truth about the reasons Britain won't be part of the EU joint procurement of ventilators, as cupid_stunt suggested the EU itself isn't looking too united over this and other issues ATM
> 
> Given all of this, I don't think it's entirely unreasonable to say it doesn't really matter whether Britain is part of the EU joint procurement of ventilators or not



I agree with you about the EU (as a body) being about as chaotic about various pandemic-related things as the UK. But I think the "Britain won't be part of the EU joint procurement of ventilators" might?? not be technically/necessarily true in the transition period before full-on Brexit?

Not sure about this, but I was thinking UK _could_ still be part of the joint-provosion arrangements if they wanted to be, is there really anything to stop this for now?

So in that sense I'm not sure I agree that it "doesn't really matter" -- the more ventilators that can be sourced the better, surely?.
This is not a remainiac question from me  btw -- just genuine curiosity.


----------



## andysays (Mar 28, 2020)

editor said:


> To no one's surprise:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You applying for a job as a fruit picker then, editor?


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2020)

Awesome move.  It's not like people and resources are stretched to breaking point by the biggest pandemic in a generation, or we're facing the 'biggest crisis since WW2,'  or anything.  



> Downing Street has completely ruled out extending the Brexit transition period, arguing the UK needs to leave the EU to have the flexibility to respond to the coronavirus crisis.
> 
> “We will not ask to extend the transition period and if the EU asks we will say no,” Boris Johnson’s spokesperson said on Thursday.
> 
> ...







__





						HuffPost is now a part of Verizon Media
					






					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## editor (Apr 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> You applying for a job as a fruit picker then, editor?


Why would I do that?


----------



## editor (May 3, 2020)

Looks like those fields are going to have to pick themselves...



> A farmer who started the asparagus harvest with 50 British workers but now has just six left has blasted the Government as 'deluded' for not doing more to help.
> 
> Seasonal workers from Romania were due to fly out to help UK farmers pick their asparagus crop this weekend, but had their flights cancelled when their government enforced stricter lockdown measures.
> 
> ...











						Farmer who took on 50 English workers to pick crops just has 7 left
					

Farmers have half as many workers picking the fields because seasonal pickers can't travel.  Edward Spanton Farm in Kent (pictured) has just 40 of the 80 workers it would usually have.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




(*apols for the Mail link)


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Awesome move.  It's not like people and resources are stretched to breaking point by the biggest pandemic in a generation, or we're facing the 'biggest crisis since WW2,'  or anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We stay in longer we are back on the hook for EU's response. And the EU's response, as is, guarantees what happened in Greece a few years back will happen again all across the Mediterranean coast.  Its an ill wind that does nobody any good..As is if EU collapses won't be seen as UK that caused it.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2020)

Let's free ourselves of all this EU bureaucracy and pen pushers.

Oh, wait:



> *Britain is to recruit 50,000 more customs agents, to handle post-Brexit trade according to a report in the Financial Times yesterday, at a cost to industry of at least £1.5 billion a year. The announcement of plans to build an academy in Kent to train the agents was made by Michael Gove.*
> 
> But as Jean Claude Piris, a French diplomat and director-general of the EU Legal Service, pointed out on Twitter, this is more than the entire 33,000-employee payroll of the European Commission in Brussels.











						Britain to recruit more border form-fillers than the EU has staff in total – Yorkshire Bylines
					

Britain is to recruit 50,000 more customs agents, to handle post-Brexit trade according to a report in the Financial Times yesterday, at a cost to industry of at least £1.5 billion a year. The announcement of plans to build an academy in Kent to train the agents was made by Michael Gove. But as...




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk
				




Anyone got any news on this since it was announced?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 6, 2020)

Fifty thousand new jobs, sounds pretty good.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fifty thousand new jobs, sounds pretty good.


Who's paying for them? Oh, wait  

Still, we've had no problem filling in all those farm jobs, eh?


----------



## agricola (May 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Let's free ourselves of all this EU bureaucracy and pen pushers.
> 
> Oh, wait:
> 
> ...



TBF they were really going to recruit 50000 customs agents then they'd have to have started years ago, not be looking into it eight months before they are required.   Its probably yet another example of them announcing something because its better* than actually doing it.

* in terms of wasting time


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 6, 2020)

editor said:


> Who's paying for them? Oh, wait
> 
> Still, we've had no problem filling in all those farm jobs, eh?



The British taxpayer will be paying, socialism in action.

And if farmers offered better pay and conditions they would be able to fill the positions, rather than exploiting people from poverty-ridden states.

All looking rosy for the future


----------



## Raheem (May 6, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The British taxpayer will be paying, socialism in action.


Policing national borders is 'socialism in action'? Are we totally sure about this?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 6, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Policing national borders is 'socialism in action'? Are we totally sure about this?



No one said they would be doing anything, just welcoming folk in. Most likely.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The British taxpayer will be paying, socialism in action.


This really isn't socialism.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 6, 2020)

editor said:


> This really isn't socialism.



It’s about as real as that bollocks you posted about one in every six hundred people working in the UK being a customs agent.


----------



## editor (May 6, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s about as real as that bollocks you posted about one in every six hundred people working in the UK being a customs agent.


Say what?


----------



## editor (May 6, 2020)

Oh, I found some updates and it appears to be going as swimmingly as you might expect. 



> Ministers are stepping up co-operation with business to train up to 50,000 people who will be needed to fill in customs forms for post-Brexit trade with the EU through the creation of a special academy. Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove revealed plans for the “customs agent academy”, as UK companies prepare for a more complex trading relationship with the EU after the Brexit transition period that is currently scheduled to end on December 31.
> 
> Mr Gove said the government was talking to the freight-forwarding industry about the private sector academy, which has been earmarked for a location in Kent, while government officials said other training agencies could be set up elsewhere.
> An online customs academy, launched last autumn with government backing, has started providing training courses and industry-recognised qualifications. The Treasury is under pressure to increase the £34m allocated for training the customs agents who will be employed by companies trading with the EU after Brexit to fill in complex forms and clear them with the authorities.





> Mr Gove, who gave evidence to the Commons Brexit committee last week, did not challenge the freight industry’s estimate that 50,000 customs agents — also known as intermediaries — will be needed.
> 
> One ally said the figure was “not far off” the government’s estimate. Hilary Benn, chair of the committee looking at Britain’s future relationship with the EU, said: “Recruiting 50,000 customs agents and training them between now and the end of the year will be an enormous task, especially in the midst of the coronavirus crisis.”







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				











						Virus Hits U.K. Bid to Hire 50,000 Post-Brexit Customs Staff
					

The U.K. risks failing to recruit the 50,000 customs agents the logistics industry says are needed before Britain’s final parting with the European Union, spelling potential chaos at the country’s busiest border.




					www.bloomberg.com
				











						Brexit: UK to set up academy for 50,000 customs form-fillers
					

A special academy is to be set up to train up to 50,000 people to fill out customs forms to enable post-Brexit trade with the EU.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

Calling it socialism is a bit too far but I don't understand why 50k new jobs is a bad thing. More entry level civil service form fillers please.


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Calling it socialism is a bit too far but I don't understand why 50k new jobs is a bad thing. More entry level civil service form fillers please.



True but they have no actual value.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

two sheds said:


> True but they have no actual value.



That's most jobs though tbf


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2020)

two sheds said:


> True but they have no actual value.



Actually they do.  They aren't going to be employed by the civil service will be employed by companies...the value - can apply same skill to imports and exports outside the EU


----------



## two sheds (May 7, 2020)

gosub said:


> Actually they do.  They aren't going to be employed by the civil service will be employed by companies...the value - can apply same skill to imports and exports outside the EU



For filling in customs forms that weren't needed before we left the EU - nothing we can actually eat. Just adds to bureaucracy.


----------



## Raheem (May 7, 2020)

Bet we end up hiring them from Belgium.


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2020)

two sheds said:


> For filling in customs forms that weren't needed before we left the EU - nothing we can actually eat. Just adds to bureaucracy.


I am not disagreeing it is an increase in bureaucracy, but the forms were there before we left, just not applicable to EU goods. Having staff who can deal with them makes the world is their lobster rather than a perocial EU outlook.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> Say what?



There's about 30m people working in the UK, 50k is roughly 1 in 600. Fifty thousand is bullshit Tory nonsense with no basis in reality.


----------



## gosub (May 7, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There's about 30m people working in the UK, 50k is roughly 1 in 600. Fifty thousand is bullshit Tory nonsense with no basis in reality.



If it WAS 50000 people processing these forms on behalf of the Government (which it isn't) how many people is that whose job it is to actually fill them out?


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There's about 30m people working in the UK, 50k is roughly 1 in 600. Fifty thousand is bullshit Tory nonsense with no basis in reality.


The government hasn't denied the figures but seeing as you seem to be better informed, what will the numbers be and what are you basing that estimate on?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> The government hasn't denied the figures but seeing as you seem to be better informed, what will the numbers be and what are you basing that estimate on?



In case you haven’t noticed, the government _are_ the Tories.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In case you haven’t noticed, the government _are_ the Tories.


Ah, so you think the real figures would be higher then?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> Ah, so you think the real figures would be higher then?



Why are you making stuff up?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

I don't really understand this thread. More is better isn't it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't really understand this thread. More is better isn't it.



You would think so, but ed doesn’t agree so has posted up a high number so he can be outraged about it and encourage others to feel the same, even though sadly it’s clearly bullshit anyway.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> I don't really understand this thread. More is better isn't it.


I thought Brexit was all about less pen-pushing bureaucracy, no?


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You would think so, but ed doesn’t agree so has posted up a high number so he can be outraged about it and encourage others to feel the same, even though sadly it’s clearly bullshit anyway.


I posted a number that has been widely quoted from several sources. If you have more accurate information from more informed sources, please provide it. I have asked before.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> I thought Brexit was all about less pen-pushing bureaucracy, no?



More about democratic control over bureaucracy than actual volume of bureaucrats I would have thought. Still think lots of fairly low level admin jobs is a good thing


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> I posted a number that has been widely quoted from several sources. If you have more accurate information from more informed sources, please provide it. I have asked before.



All those sources come back to the exact same point; a Tory briefing. If that is what you wish to base argument on be my guest. I happen to think the Tories are liars and don’t take what they say at face value.


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> More about democratic control over bureaucracy than actual volume of bureaucrats I would have thought. Still think lots of fairly low level admin jobs is a good thing


How many more would you like? 200,000 extra jobs? And ultimately, who do you think pays for these extra jobs and employment costs?


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 7, 2020)

editor said:


> How many more would you like? 200,000 extra jobs? And ultimately, who do you think pays for these extra jobs and employment costs?



Honestly I think you need to have a rethink about this argument Ed, cos it's a bit tory. I'd take 2,000,000 jobs and perfectly happy for them to be public sector (suspect will be outsourced to private tho)


----------



## editor (May 7, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> Honestly I think you need to have a rethink about this argument Ed, cos it's a bit tory. I'd take 2,000,000 jobs and perfectly happy for them to be public sector (suspect will be outsourced to private tho)


Brexit is Tory. Increasing bureaucracy with tens of thousands of low level, low pay, outsourced jobs isn't something I thought I'd see you advocating either.

Anyway, I'm out of this thread. When someone starts calling me Tory  then I know I'm wasting my time.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (May 7, 2020)

Yep, no freedom of movement means your movement ain't free.


----------



## Flavour (May 7, 2020)

anarchists sharing mail links unironically and editor against public sector job creation. bit weird this one.


----------



## Supine (May 8, 2020)

There is nothing right wing about thinking a load of shit boring and pointless jobs is a bad thing.


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 8, 2020)

Supine said:


> There is nothing right wing about thinking a load of shit boring and pointless jobs is a bad thing.



You still a libdem?


----------



## Supine (May 8, 2020)

Proper Tidy said:


> You still a libdem?



Yawn


----------



## Proper Tidy (May 8, 2020)

Supine said:


> Yawn



No more questions your honour


----------



## editor (May 13, 2020)

From the Telegraph



> *Covid-19 has completely sunk the chances of a swift EU trade deal*
> JEREMY WARNER MAY 12, 2020
> 
> Few will have noticed it amid the destruction of the Covid-19 pandemic, but a third round of trade talks with the European Union began this week, and all the early signs are that Brexit’s irresistible force is again running slap bang into the EU’s immovable object.
> ...


----------



## Helen Back (May 13, 2020)

Well I for one won't be eating any food imported from the US. I'll be paying very close attention to the country of origin and it'll be either UK or EU only for me - IF we're still going to get any food at all Europe, that is.


----------



## editor (May 13, 2020)

More Brexit lies



> The government has privately conceded there will be post-Brexit checks on goods crossing the Irish Sea, months after Boris Johnson insisted there would be no such trade barriers.
> 
> In a letter to the executive office in Stormont the government confirmed there would be border control posts in three ports, Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne.
> 
> Declan Kearney, one of the two junior ministers in the executive office, the regional equivalent of the Cabinet Office in London, confirmed the details at a select committee session in Belfast on Wednesday.











						Brexit will mean checks on goods crossing Irish Sea, government admits
					

Ministers’ letter confirms border control posts at ports of Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (May 14, 2020)

Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne will be where checks are supposed to happen.
So the land border on the island of Ireland will remain as it is now, but the brexit as was voted for is betrayed.
In addition Boris Johnson lied about checks between different parts of the UK.
So it is not getting brexit done but getting Tory power secured.
I am still hoping that eventually the EU tells the UK to fuck off in as many ways they can.


----------



## Teaboy (May 14, 2020)

Helen Back said:


> Well I for one won't be eating any food imported from the US. I'll be paying very close attention to the country of origin and it'll be either UK or EU only for me - IF we're still going to get any food at all Europe, that is.



Its a difficult one.  In some ways I think if food is clearly labelled than the consumer has a choice.  In other ways I look at our general level of health here in the UK and its terrible and getting worse.  One of the factors is allowing capitalism to run rampant in food supply and cheap shit is plentiful and marketed aggressively.  I strongly believe our baseline health in this country has in part contributed to the high covid-19 death rate.  Its hard to think it'll get any better if US companies are allowed a free rein.

The other worry is that if local producers are priced out by US competitors who work to different (lower?) standards than they'll either adopt those standards or go out of business.   So it may not be as simple as choosing not to eat US labelled food it might be that's how all food becomes apart from expensive organic etc food for those who can afford it.


----------



## gosub (May 15, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Belfast, Warrenpoint and Larne will be where checks are supposed to happen.
> So the land border on the island of Ireland will remain as it is now, but the brexit as was voted for is betrayed.
> In addition Boris Johnson lied about checks between different parts of the UK.
> So it is not getting brexit done but getting Tory power secured.
> I am still hoping that eventually the EU tells the UK to fuck off in as many ways they can.



I think the EU are kind of hoping UK will ask for an extension But Brexit happens. It would be nuts for the UK not to.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 4, 2020)

Now here's a surprise, looks like Boris and his pals were lying who'd have seen that coming









						Boris Johnson facing backlash after scrapping pledge to keep chlorinated chicken out of British supermarkets
					

Government accused of not standing up to Donald Trump’s trade negotiators




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Downing Street signalled on Thursday that imports of lower-standard American food were now on the table in the negotiations, a reversal of a longstanding promise.
> 
> As recently as January, Theresa Villiers, then environment secretary, reiterated that “we will not be importing chlorinated chicken” – but since then US trade chiefs have put pressure on the UK to change its position, leading the government to change tack.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 5, 2020)

The FT had a piece yesterday saying that there are many voices around government who are arguing that the economic collapse of Covid is the perfect cover to "bury" the economic hit of a No Deal - it'll just add some billions to the debt but the pain can be hidden within the bigger picture.

ETA: here it is








						Covid crisis likely to mask economic fallout of no-deal Brexit | Free to read
					

Economists question why UK would want to inflict further pain on businesses




					www.ft.com


----------



## two sheds (Jun 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The FT had a piece yesterday saying that there are many voices around government who are arguing that the economic collapse of Covid is the perfect cover to "bury" the economic hit of a No Deal - it'll just add some billions to the debt but the pain can be hidden within the bigger picture.
> 
> ETA: here it is
> 
> ...



Yep, continued austerity for nurses and essential workers and the rest of us but good times ahead for tory donors and hedge funds and the rest of them


----------



## Raheem (Jun 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The FT had a piece yesterday saying that there are many voices around government who are arguing that the economic collapse of Covid is the perfect cover to "bury" the economic hit of a No Deal - it'll just add some billions to the debt but the pain can be hidden within the bigger picture.
> 
> ETA: here it is
> 
> ...


Key phrase from that article: "Some economists".

In terms of government debt, maybe a case can be made that it's going to be massive so who cares how massive? But it's not realistic to suppose you can have thousands upon thousands of jobs moving to the EU without anyone noticing.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jun 5, 2020)

From that Telegraph piece this is the disturbing bit



> A cynical view is that this is no longer of any real importance since the economic damage from the Covid-19 crisis is already so great that any further destruction from Brexit will be barely noticed.



I pity the negotiators on both sides having to discuss all this remotely. It's taken my team at work about 9 weeks (to get used video conferencing)  before we finally had a proper argument/discussion on Google hangouts


----------



## editor (Jun 6, 2020)

Along with all those extra tens of millions going to the NHS every week thanks to Brexit, the food supply chain is also another big winner.  Oh, wait....









						‘Disorderly’ no-deal Brexit will strain food supply chain even more than coronavirus, MPs warne
					

‘The focus of retailers now is 100 per cent on what’s going to happen on 1 January’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jun 11, 2020)

And so it goes on.



> The British government has abandoned its plan to introduce full border checks with the EU on January 1 as ministers come under mounting pressure from business not to compound the chaos caused by coronavirus. In a significant policy U-turn, Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, has accepted that businesses cannot be expected to cope with Covid-19 and simultaneously face the prospect of disruption at the border at the end of the post-Brexit transition period
> However, officials concede that goods flowing to the EU from the UK are likely to face full checks as they enter France.
> 
> “We recognise the impact that coronavirus has had on UK businesses,” a Whitehall official said. “As we take back control of our laws and borders at the end of this year, we will take a pragmatic and flexible approach.”
> ...







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## ska invita (Jun 12, 2020)

editor said:


> And so it goes on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm struggling to understand what this means.... If they're giving up on checks does that mean that the deal (if there is one) will be one of alignment to the EU?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I'm struggling to understand what this means.... If they're giving up on checks does that mean that the deal (if there is one) will be one of alignment to the EU?



According to the EU zero progress has been made on alignment and zero interest shown on our side. Looks like the tories are still thinking they can dictate terms unilaterally despite the evidence of the last several years.

If I was Johnson I'd be easing up on the ideological shit and focussing on what will keep food on the shelves and people in work, if only to cover my own arse.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 12, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> According to the EU zero progress has been made on alignment and zero interest shown on our side. Looks like the tories are still thinking they can dictate terms unilaterally despite the evidence of the last several years.
> 
> If I was Johnson I'd be easing up on the ideological shit and focussing on what will keep food on the shelves and people in work, if only to cover my own arse.


Well looks to me like they're running out of time to hand in their homework. In those situations it's always easiest just to copy someone elses.
Softer Brexit under the cover of C19 incoming??


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jun 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Well looks to me like they're running out of time to hand in their homework. In those situations it's always easiest just to copy someone elses.
> Softer Brexit under the cover of C19 incoming??



If the EU does the work for them they'd probably sign off on it at this point. But who even knows with these clowns.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I'm struggling to understand what this means.... If they're giving up on checks does that mean that the deal (if there is one) will be one of alignment to the EU?



Or imports will be allowed in without checks, but exports going through France will be checked/delayed/taxed? Don't know but this sentence doesn't look like softer Brexit or alignment to EU.



> However, officials concede that goods flowing to the EU from the UK are likely to face full checks as they enter France.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Or imports will be allowed in without checks, but exports going through France will be checked/delayed/taxed? Don't know but this sentence doesn't look like softer Brexit or alignment to EU.


The control being taken back...East of Dover.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 12, 2020)

they haven't got a fucking clue what they're doing and will just make it up as they go along in bumbling incompetent fashion both now and after the end of the transition period (if they don't extend it, which I wouldn't rule out)


----------



## Smangus (Jun 12, 2020)

Don't know why you lot are so negative, the handling of the Covid pandemic should fill you with confidence at this Gvts ability to scope and agree a rational deal that would beneficial to all. Honestly, bloody naysayers


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2020)

Private Eye


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2020)

Make Britain Great Again.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2020)

4 years.


----------



## Poi E (Jun 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> they haven't got a fucking clue what they're doing and will just make it up as they go along in bumbling incompetent fashion both now and after the end of the transition period (if they don't extend it, which I wouldn't rule out)



No, they haven't. Britain has never done free trade before. Empire definitely doesn't count. The sad fuckers had to appoint a New Zealander to head their trade team. Of course he won't pass anything to the Kiwis, noooo. Kiwis love the UK for cutting the country loose in the 1970s to join the EU. All rugby and Oyster Bay, eh. Spectacularly naive.

Not once have I heard any UK commentator talk about competitive advantage. What does Britain do cheaper or more efficiently than other countries? This needs to be answered before any negotiations can begin so sectoral adjustment can be planned. There is a ruinous presumption Britain goes out into the world just trying to maintain sectors it already has. Completely out of touch with reality.


----------



## editor (Jun 24, 2020)

Be proud Brexit voters!





> The stunning cost of the U.K.'s long and drawn-out divorce with the European Union has been laid bare by a new analysis from Bloomberg Economics. It found that real GDP losses due to Brexit stood at just over £22 billion in 2017, and that has snowballed ever since. The U.K. is set to finalize its departure from the EU at the end of January and uncertainty about the move has now cost it £130 billion, a figure that's expected to hit £203 billion by the end of 2020.
> 
> Putting that into perspective, it's actually close to the amount of money the U.K. has contributed to all EU budgets over the past 47 years, according to Business Insider. Since 1973, total U.K. payments to the EU budget added up to approximately £215 billion, judging by House of Commons Library figures. Poignantly, the scale of those payments were central to the Leave campaign's case for Brexit and it now looks like the cost of the divorce itself is going to be significantly higher than all of those budget contributions over the past half century.
> 
> Once the U.K. finds itself outside the EU, will it be able to make up all of that lost financial ground? It appears highly unlikely.












						Brexit Costs Close To Matching Britain’s Total EU Contributions [Infographic]
					

Britain's Brexit bill is close to exceeding the cost of its collective contributions to all EU budgets since 1973.




					www.forbes.com


----------



## Badgers (Jun 26, 2020)

Family First?


----------



## two sheds (Jun 26, 2020)

Surprised it's not oven-ready.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 26, 2020)

That cunt Sammy Wilson, DUP, asked that other cunt Boris Johnson, Prime Minister, an unanswerable question in PMQ's about border controls between parts of the UK after the UK 'leaves'.
Boris Johnson simply smirked and lied.
Clearly as well as having had enough of experts, the Tory cunts have had enough of truth.
And we're not even getting bread and circuses to compensate.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Family First?



Women and children first.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jun 26, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Women and children first.



Only very specifically designated and approved women though.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Family First?



Selling our first born.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 26, 2020)

Is the trade deal going to prioritise being able to sell your family?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Selling our first born.


Snap


----------



## Badgers (Jul 1, 2020)

Excellent thread this


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Excellent thread this




Which you can't read if you're not on Twitter


----------



## Badgers (Jul 1, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Which you can't read if you're not on Twitter


You can


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> You can


Oops apologies - yep I can read his message (which is priceless ta ) I got confused by a note at the end of the page saying "Join Twitter to get the full story with all the live commentary". 

Want to know what happens with the Mayor and his wife and the staff member who changed her day off to be there


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Excellent thread this



What does happen to Brits living in France on 1st Jan 2021?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> What does happen to Brits living in France on 1st Jan 2021?


gentlegreen might be interested too (or know)


----------



## Raheem (Jul 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> What does happen to Brits living in France on 1st Jan 2021?


Their 2cvs turn into pumpkins.


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2020)

Enjoying this thread


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2020)

The Tory slab of vermin juice says


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2020)

Ah, it's the REMAINERS fault after all! 


















						Pro-Brexit group admits leaving the EU is 'a mess' and blames Remainers for it
					






					www.indy100.com


----------



## brogdale (Jul 9, 2020)

When it's Liz Truss explaining Brexit to Johnson's bunker we know we're in trouble.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 9, 2020)

She'll be out in the next reshuffle now then.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 9, 2020)

Smangus said:


> She'll be out in the next reshuffle now then.


She promised to resign if the UK agreed to chlorinated chicken, so maybe she is a bit demob happy, or else determined to bring that issue to a head.

What this does show is that there is a trade negotiation going on and the Dept of Trade is spectating, reduced to making observations by letter.


----------



## editor (Jul 9, 2020)

The whole thing has been a farce from start to finish, and cost the nation billions. And for what? The NHS certainly didn't get the promised pile of dosh.


----------



## gosub (Jul 9, 2020)

I don't know, as Transend approaches I am cautiously optimistic


----------



## Poi E (Jul 9, 2020)

editor said:


> The whole thing has been a farce from start to finish, and cost the nation billions. And for what? The NHS certainly didn't get the promised pile of dosh.



British nationalism fucks you in the arse. Peoples around the world know this. If one good thing can come of this, it's the death of the British state, and seeing the flood of tears from servile wankers all over the island.


----------



## Poi E (Jul 10, 2020)

Leave Alliance turn out to be British Imperial race hate cunts. What a fucking shocker eh.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 12, 2020)

Locals in Willesborough/Ashford already calling the proposed M20 Brexit customs clearance, HGV holding zone the _Farage garage.

_


----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Jul 12, 2020)

Brexit: Gove defends £705m plan for border posts and staff
					

Labour has accused the government of being underprepared, saying the money was "too little, too late".



					www.bbc.com
				




These costs still allow for the £350m to the NHS yeah?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 12, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Brexit: Gove defends £705m plan for border posts and staff
> 
> 
> Labour has accused the government of being underprepared, saying the money was "too little, too late".
> ...


Pissing in the wind to bandy facts; this whole process has always worked in the affective domain. It'll take a long period of sustained economic consequence to shake the faith of the true believers; hence the rock solid 40%+ polling for the party of Brexit.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 12, 2020)

Badgers said:


>




Take THAT, red tape


----------



## Badgers (Jul 13, 2020)

> For or some weeks the British government has been planning a “shock and awe” campaign to warn British businesses that they have less than six months to prepare for Brexit; but the EU has beaten them to it.











						EU launches its own shock and awe campaign early – Yorkshire Bylines
					

For some weeks the British government has been planning a “shock and awe” campaign to warn British businesses that they have less than six months to prepare for Brexit; but the EU has beaten them to it.  As the latest round of talks on the future relationship finished in London yesterday, with...




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk
				






			https://ec.europa.eu/info/sites/info/files/brexit_files/info_site/com_2020_324_2_communication_from_commission_to_inst_en_0.pdf


----------



## Badgers (Jul 13, 2020)

At least we have that Canada trade deal all sorted


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> At least we have that Canada trade deal all sorted



It's all about Australia plus plus (don't call it a crash out)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> EU launches its own shock and awe campaign early – Yorkshire Bylines
> 
> 
> For some weeks the British government has been planning a “shock and awe” campaign to warn British businesses that they have less than six months to prepare for Brexit; but the EU has beaten them to it.  As the latest round of talks on the future relationship finished in London yesterday, with...
> ...



How are businesses supposed to prepare when nobody knows on what basis we'll be trading with EU or anywhere else?


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2020)

Brexit voters. Be proud of the freeeeeeeeedom that Brits can now all enjoy.



> British travellers face the worst possible outcome once the Brexit transition period ends, the government has confirmed.
> 
> Promises that the European Health Insurance Card (Ehic) scheme would continue have been dashed, meaning travellers to the EU will face sharply increased travel insurance premiums.
> 
> ...





> Since the EU referendum in 2016, the government has said repeatedly that it wished to agree reciprocal health-care terms to replace the Ehic.
> 
> But that plan has been abandoned. Instead, British travellers will be expected to meet the full cost of their treatment in EU countries, as well as Iceland, Liechtenstein, Norway and Switzerland.
> 
> This will increase the cost of travel insurance – especially for older travellers and those with pre-existing medical conditions.





> Pet owners face rules so complex that the BBC’s assistant political editor, Norman Smith, said: “Speaking as a dog owner it looks to me frankly such a faff, you are just not going to bother.”
> 
> On the Today programme, he explained: “You are going to have to take your pet to the vet to get a rabies vaccination. You’ll then have to return a month later to get a blood test, send that blood test to an EU laboratory.
> 
> ...











						UK travellers to EU will face higher costs and more red tape after Brexit transition
					

‘Pets of Great Britain, you can say farewell to the Dordogne,’ said the BBC’s Norman Smith




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexit voters. Be proud of the freeeeeeeeedom that Brits can now all enjoy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


by 'brexit voters' i suppose you mean the 13,966,454 people who put an x by a tory candidate in december; they bear more responsibility for the johnson clusterfuck than the people who voted leave four years ago


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> by 'brexit voters' i suppose you mean the 13,966,454 people who put an x by a tory candidate in december; they bear more responsibility for the johnson clusterfuck than the people who voted leave four years ago


No, I mean the people voted for Brexit. It's really quite self explanatory.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2020)

He's got a point though, Brexit under Corbyn would have been a lot less painful than under this shower.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 13, 2020)

All those people who thought they were voting for a Corbyn Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

editor said:


> No, I mean the people voted for Brexit. It's really quite self explanatory.


i think it is ludicrous to blame the people who voted for brexit for where we find ourselves now. it's been detailed in great depth over the past four years that what people were told by the leave campaign was a load of cobblers. but at the last general election people knew far more about how our future relationship with europe would look and nearly 14 million of them went ahead and voted for what it was clear would be a very profitable time for johnson and his friends and a much more expensive time for everybody else.

other brexits were possible. we could have left the eu and rejoined efta. we could have left the eu and remained within the single market and customs union. we could have negotiated a position whereby the uk was in some things, like the cultural programmes of the eu and the ehic card, and out of others. but as it is there have been no real negotiations about our future relationship. and that is the current government's fault, not the fault of the 2016 leavers.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2020)

teuchter said:


> All those people who thought they were voting for a Corbyn Brexit.


All those people who thought they'd be better off under a tory Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> He's got a point though, Brexit under Corbyn would have been a lot less painful than under this shower.


brexit under theresa may would have been a lot less painful than it will be under the repugnant johnson

going off on our own to be a modern buccaneering nation ignores what will be the reality, ignores what is the reality, that if the government by chance does something halfway decent like complain about the treatment of people in hong kong the chinese will not ignore the protest but threaten retaliation. on their own terms the tory brexit will be an utter failure because this country will not be a great trading nation in the future but a fucking tin can for other countries and trading blocs to kick.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 13, 2020)

They all voted for the oven ready that never was, gullible wankers.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> How are businesses supposed to prepare when nobody knows on what basis we'll be trading with EU or anywhere else?


squeeze arsecheeks really tight


----------



## teuchter (Jul 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> brexit under theresa may would have been a lot less painful than it will be under the repugnant johnson


And when people voted for Brexit, what they really wanted was a Brexit led by remainer Theresa May. They certainly weren't voting for a Brexit implemented by the people who led the Brexit campaign that they voted for. They've been conned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

teuchter said:


> And when people voted for Brexit, what they really wanted was a Brexit led by remainer Theresa May. They certainly weren't voting for a Brexit implemented by the people who led the Brexit campaign that they voted for. They've been conned.


when people voted for brexit no one foresaw theresa may would become prime minister after the repulsive creature cameron ran away


----------



## philosophical (Jul 13, 2020)

Brexit voters say they knew what they were voting for.
I fail to see how the passing of time since 2016 changes or has changed that stance.
Isn't it reasonable in the circumstances for brexit voters to own everything since the vote rather than trying to weasel away saying they only meant the good bits?
(I can't see any good bits myself).
Those who voted Tory in 2019 at least only brought on this nightmare for five years, those who won the brexit vote have seemingly triumphed forever.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 13, 2020)

yeh but  sovereignty 

cannot blame people for wanting something else, something better- delivered by those who have royally screwed you over for decades is a bit grim tho'


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> those who won the brexit vote have seemingly triumphed forever.


i suspect nemesis will arrive swiftly


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> yeh but  sovereignty
> 
> cannot blame people for wanting something else, something better- delivered by those who have royally screwed you over for decades centuries is a bit grim tho'


c4u


----------



## philosophical (Jul 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> yeh but  sovereignty
> 
> cannot blame people for wanting something else, something better- delivered by those who have royally screwed you over for decades is a bit grim tho'


 
Yes people wanted something better, but in my view the direction of travel away from nationalism, especially the British establishment version of nationalism, was heading in the direction of something better.
The brexit result has handed everything over to the Etonocracy which is not in the slightest bit better.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 13, 2020)

people like this country. Mad I know, but people are proud of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> people like this country. Mad I know, but people are proud of it.


they won't be when the disgusting johnson has made a midden of it


----------



## philosophical (Jul 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> people like this country. Mad I know, but people are proud of it.



All of it? Like, warts and all?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2020)

the warts are the best bits


----------



## Smangus (Jul 13, 2020)

*Build! Build! Build! *

All we need is a bridge over the Irish Sea, an airport in the Thames and a cable car from the Palace to Russia 🥶, you doomsters!

My old Gran told me never to doubt a cold eyed opportunist with a demented haystack on his head, so she did.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> the warts are the best bits



The warts who regularly racially abuse my son are not the best bit of anything. Maybe they're not warts at all but the most representative example of British people and Britain. Something to be proud of eh?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2020)

They're not warts they're pustules I never said anything about pustules.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 13, 2020)

This remoaner Brexit-baiting made me laugh; it reminded me of PhoneShop and how the woman from the Croydon shop dissed Sutton's PAYG 'sales executive', Janine.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> How are businesses supposed to prepare when nobody knows on what basis we'll be trading with EU or anywhere else?





> As the document makes clear: "The UK's negotiations with the EU will have NO IMPACT on the need to take these actions."











						Brexit: Get ready because this time it’s for real
					

A new government document on preparing for Brexit presents a daunting checklist for business.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> HMRC estimates that the cost to UK business of having to fill out 200 million additional annual customs declarations alone will be £6.5bn a year.Many business groups have said this extra burden of time and cost comes at a moment when business is reeling from the impact of coronavirus disruption which has pitched the UK and the rest of the world into its deepest recession in living memory.



A Covid19 outbreak at Dover border control on the 2nd Jan could be ....interesting


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 14, 2020)

#faragegarage


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2020)

It just keeps on delivering 



> British companies trading with Europe will have to absorb a post-Brexit bureaucracy burden and fill in an extra 215m customs declarations at a cost of about £7bn a year, according to government officials.
> 
> The scale of the additional red tape involved in future trade with the EU was confirmed as cabinet office minister Michael Gove laid out the government’s plans to manage the UK’s borders in a 206-page document that included the admission: “Customs declarations are complicated.”
> 
> Mr Gove announced £705m of extra spending for new infrastructure, jobs and technology, and the border with the EU and confirmed plans to build lorry inspection sites away from congested ports such as Dover. Officials estimate that up to a dozen may be needed.







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## Ax^ (Jul 14, 2020)

the great Britain exit for free trade with the world

unless the US says no


----------



## Badgers (Jul 19, 2020)

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell – EFN and Pan-European FBA ends for UK
					

The Amazon FBA Brexit bombshell has dropped which will significantly impact your Amazon business from the 1st of January 2021. Amazon's UK FBA operations will be split from the EU with no more EFN (European Fufilment Network) and an end to Pan-European FBA inventory transfers between the UK and...




					tamebay.com
				






> The Amazon FBA Brexit bombshell has dropped which will significantly impact your Amazon business from the 1st of January 2021. Amazon’s UK FBA operations will be split from the EU with no more EFN (European Fufilment Network) and an end to Pan-European FBA inventory transfers between the UK and EU.


----------



## editor (Jul 19, 2020)

Not looking good for Cornwall



> *Cornwall Council has renewed its call for the government to provide £700m in funding to fill the gap left by EU funding post-Brexit.*
> The figure would cover the loss the region will suffer over the next ten years due to the impact of leaving the European Union.
> Cornwall was granted Objective One status by the EU in 1999, meaning it was eligible for funding as one of the poorest regions in Europe.











						Brexit-voting Cornwall is asking for £700m to make up for lost EU funding but no one has any sympathy
					

Cornwall Council has renewed its call for the government to provide £700m in funding to fill the gap left by EU funding post-Brexit.




					www.indy100.com


----------



## Smangus (Jul 20, 2020)

They voted for brexit


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> They voted for brexit


Pretty sure the vote might have been different if they'd been told the full story at the time.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 20, 2020)

pretty naive to think they would get the uk gvt replacing EU funding.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2020)

The disappointment is surely going to be more about what they replace it with.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> pretty naive to think they would get the uk gvt replacing EU funding.


about as naive as people thinking we'd get more NHS funding.


----------



## editor (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> pretty naive to think they would get the uk gvt replacing EU funding.


There wasn't a lot of critical thinking going on at the time. The media was mainly made up of flag waving twats and puffed up Tories evoking the spirit of Churchill, D Day, Spitfires, Empire and the good old days.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 20, 2020)

editor said:


> There wasn't a lot of critical thinking going on at the time. The media was plw made up of flag waving twats and puffed up Tories evoking the spirit of Churchill, D Day, Spitfires, Empire and the good old days.



Oh I agree, the whole debate was a shambles. The saddest thing is that I can see no benefits from Brexit coming for the people who voted for it in areas like Cornwall, Wales, the North East, the so called red wall.  People who will be screwed by the likes of Johnson, Trump, Xi and the deals they reach. Even if Trump is voted out there is no way the US is going to do anybody a favour in any trade deal.  These communities will feel the worst of it. I'm not an arch remainer either.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 20, 2020)

Perhaps I am understandingly cynical about this disgraced government and how they award money 

Cornwall is predominantly Tory and voted Brexit. These are things that are rewarded by this disgraced government. A lot of Tory party membera, donors and voters (alongside residents) will have land, holiday homes down there. Cornwall is also a very marketable UK tourist destination. 

The £700m they cost themselves may well be bailed out over 10 years to keep them onside.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> Oh I agree, the whole debate was a shambles. The saddest thing is that I can see no benefits from Brexit coming for the people who voted for it in areas like Cornwall, Wales, the North East, the so called red wall.  People who will be screwed by the likes of Johnson, Trump, Xi and the deals they reach. Even if Trump is voted out there is no way the US is going to do anybody a favour in any trade deal.  These communities will feel the worst of it. I'm not an arch remainer either.


I can’t see any benefit coming to most of those who voted to leave either. All the worst aspects of neo-liberal multi-national capitalism will just be exacerbated. All the flag-waving, patriotic, xenophobic hot air will be shown to be just that.


----------



## Poot (Jul 20, 2020)

Hold on a minute. Much though I adore taking the piss out of the Cornish, they're not actually cookie cutter copies of each other. They didn't all vote the same way or think the same way. And there is a serious situation with regard to people's livelihoods; people will actually be hungry at the end of all this, and I'm not entirely sure that I like the deckchair-and-popcorn attitude. It doesn't feel very Urban to me. Sorry.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 20, 2020)

Poot said:


> Hold on a minute. Much though I adore taking the piss out of the Cornish, they're not actually cookie cutter copies of each other. They didn't all vote the same way or think the same way. And there is a serious situation with regard to people's livelihoods; people will actually be hungry at the end of all this, and I'm not entirely sure that I like the deckchair-and-popcorn attitude. It doesn't feel very Urban to me. Sorry.


Quite agree


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> They voted for brexit



The old people did. The young folk of cornwall are basically doomed. At this rate the whole place will be a ghost town in my lifetime.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 20, 2020)

Poot said:


> Hold on a minute. Much though I adore taking the piss out of the Cornish, they're not actually cookie cutter copies of each other. They didn't all vote the same way or think the same way. And there is a serious situation with regard to people's livelihoods; people will actually be hungry at the end of all this, and I'm not entirely sure that I like the deckchair-and-popcorn attitude. It doesn't feel very Urban to me. Sorry.



Indeed. The whole idea of describing a whole region as 'brexit voting' erases a fuckload of people.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Indeed. The whole idea of describing a whole region as 'brexit voting' erases a fuckload of people.


Which is what our government have done all over the UK.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 20, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Which is what our government have done all over the UK.



And many on here likewise.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 20, 2020)

Well I meant "they" as in the majority that voted Brexit there. Obviously not all the Cornish voted for it. It seems quite clear that Cornwall and the other regions will suffer for it for various reasons. I take absolutely no pleasure in that whatsoever.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The old people did. The young folk of cornwall are basically doomed. At this rate the whole place will be a ghost town in my lifetime.


Meanwhile in the EU negotiations over Covid 19 finance the people representing the young people in the richer northern EU  states are trying to insist that younger people in the poorer southern EU states pay off a loan for any financial assistance rather than it be a grant.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile in the EU negotiations over Covid 19 finance the people representing the young people in the richer northern EU  states are trying to insist that younger people in the poorer southern EU states pay off a loan for any financial assistance rather than it be a grant.


So you're trying to tell me Brexit didn't fix the EU?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2020)

Raheem said:


> So you're trying to tell me Brexit didn't fix the EU?


I really don't need to tell you that the EU cant be fixed


----------



## ska invita (Jul 20, 2020)

Smangus said:


> They voted for brexit


And some libdem seats went Tory in 2019


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 20, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I really don't need to tell you that the EU cant be fixed


au contraire, as any brexiteer will tell you the eu is most definitely fixed


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2020)

Interesting that the Dutch leading the 'frugal' four group  have such a grip on benefiting from tax havens


----------



## Badgers (Jul 21, 2020)




----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 21, 2020)

Why the peak in 2007 ?
 
False teeth ?
Money laundering before the crash ?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 21, 2020)

ska invita said:


> And some libdem seats went Tory in 2019


That's not correct, all six Cornish seats were Tory by 2015 so movement precedes the referendum. 

But regardless are you arguing that people should have voted LD to keep out the Tories?


----------



## rubbershoes (Jul 21, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> That's not correct, all six Cornish seats were Tory by 2015 so movement precedes the referendum.
> 
> But regardless are you arguing that people should have voted LD to keep out the Tories?



Fucking yes


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 21, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 223057



What he is struggling to say is he will be starting to talk to efta about the UK's future relationship with them


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 21, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Fucking yes


Hurrah for neo-liberalism, hurrah for austerity so long as it is piss yellow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Hurrah for neo-liberalism, hurrah for austerity so long as it is piss yellow.


No one should ever vote for the golden shower


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What he is struggling to say is he will be starting to talk to efta about the UK's future relationship with them


Cue more _*F*ree *U*nited *K*ingdom *w*ith *I*nternational *T*rade_ quips.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Jul 21, 2020)

The Vermin Regime vote down Clause 17 intended to protect the NHS and other public services from competition and privatisation in the Trade Bill.


----------



## rubbershoes (Jul 21, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Hurrah for neo-liberalism, hurrah for austerity so long as it is piss yellow.



Tiresome and predictable


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2020)

I don’t understand what happened yesterday, they voted to deny themselselves (parliament) any say in future trade deals? Why? Just don’t get it at all.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> The Vermin Regime vote down Clause 17 intended to protect the NHS and other public services from competition and privatisation in the Trade Bill.



Narodnaya Volya, eh?


----------



## Flavour (Jul 21, 2020)

just a little parenthesis to say i fucking hate the dutch government


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 21, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Tiresome and predictable


You are a great example of the vapidness and deadendness of "anti-Toryism". The LDs enabled and promoted austerity, they backed further attacks to workers in 2015 and 2017 and in 2019 their manifesto was arguably economically to the right of the Tories. But hey they aren't Tories, they love the EU so they should be supported.


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Jul 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what happened yesterday, they voted to deny themselselves (parliament) any say in future trade deals? Why? Just don’t get it at all.


Because it was never about taking back parliamentary sovereignty.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what happened yesterday, they voted to deny themselselves (parliament) any say in future trade deals? Why? Just don’t get it at all.



Its so they can do what they want without being accountable to anybody, least of all Parliment. 

Johnson and his goons have a real issue with being held to account by anyone, see the ISC chair debacle. That was all about trying to avoid scrutiny.  It's a very dangerous culture at the heart of Gvt.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2020)

Totally corrupt. Britain's future decided on this fucking farce.









						Russia report: UK 'badly underestimated' threat, says committee
					

Russian influence in the UK is now "the new normal", according to a parliamentary committee.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## cupid_stunt (Jul 21, 2020)

editor said:


> Totally corrupt. Britain's future decided on this fucking farce.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thread here...









						The Russia report.
					

So for nine months this report has been put on hold. It is to be published at 10.30am tomorrow 21/7/20. Do you think it will actually reveal anything or have more lines of redaction than actual print. Are you expecting a dead cat story overnight? If not I expect it won't reveal too much but...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## bimble (Jul 21, 2020)

And the majority of MPs in the place happily voted for that yesterday, sat there &voted to not allow themselves a vote. That’s the bit I’m struggling to get my head round.


----------



## quiet guy (Jul 21, 2020)

To be fair some won't have realized what they were voting for, some will have been persuaded to vote due to their financial considerations and the rest are cunts, just CUNTS.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2020)

Another step along towards presidential rather than parliament style government. I saw recently Johnson wants to reorganize the NHS so he gets more control as this will be more efficient  . Aside from his fuckups already having been responsible for a lot of the excess deaths.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 21, 2020)

Poot said:


> Hold on a minute. Much though I adore taking the piss out of the Cornish, they're not actually cookie cutter copies of each other. They didn't all vote the same way or think the same way. And there is a serious situation with regard to people's livelihoods; people will actually be hungry at the end of all this, and I'm not entirely sure that I like the deckchair-and-popcorn attitude. It doesn't feel very Urban to me. Sorry.


Of course no county is full of people all the same.
However as a county they voted Tory by a vast majority


I'm not laughing at anyone. We live in a country full of majority Tory voters. Theres no punchline.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 22, 2020)




----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 22, 2020)

Sadly I doubt that will make my ex-copper uncle in Brixham take all the UKIP crap off his facebook ..


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 22, 2020)

quiet guy said:


> To be fair some won't have realized what they were voting for, some will have been persuaded to vote due to their financial considerations and the rest are cunts, just CUNTS.



If they voted for it without knowing what it was that puts them firmly in the 'cunt' category.


----------



## editor (Jul 23, 2020)




----------



## gosub (Jul 23, 2020)

BBC iPlayer - Watch BBC News live
					

Watch BBC News live on BBC iPlayer.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Kind of busy this morning but walked past as saw a strapline - clear agreement won't be reached in July - 

Best endeavours? Its 23/7  or are they planning on working in August


----------



## Raheem (Jul 23, 2020)

21 October is the date now, apparently.

ETA: It's not actually the date _now_, obvs.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 23, 2020)




----------



## two sheds (Jul 23, 2020)

flooding hasn't half changed the landscape


----------



## Anju (Jul 23, 2020)

Another inevitable consequence of brexit. Not the Gove is a liar part which would obviously be true regardless. 

Gove branded 'liar' as MPs vote down animal welfare amendment


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2020)

My heart bleeds for Helen Whately









						'It cannot become a lorry rat run'
					

A Kent MP is calling for robust plans to ensure a key A-road does not become a rat run for HGVs when a huge post-Brexit lorry park opens.



					www.kentonline.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2020)

Badgers said:


> My heart bleeds for Helen Whately
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Article does not, of course, mention that the Whately's have just purchased an old Manor house & farm just 50m off the A251.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Article does not, of course, mention that the Whately's have just purchased an old Manor house & farm just 50m off the A251.
> 
> View attachment 223564


Hope that helps her through the hard times


----------



## brogdale (Jul 25, 2020)

Though, tbh the A251 is a shite road and route that hold limited appeal for most international HGV drivers. It's a typical, unimproved East Kent road that is very narrow, quite twisty with blind spots notorious for RTAs & climbs up the North Downs scarp slope very steeply just North of Ashford. Then getting to the M2 East of Medway is no great thing; its mid 60's dual track infrastructure feels more like an old trunk road than a motorway. Any lorry driver in their right mind would plough on up the M20 using the Swanley junction to get to the tunnel.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 25, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 223403



Without Norway Sweden and Finland look even more like a droopy cock and balls.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jul 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Article does not, of course, mention that the Whately's have just purchased an old Manor house & farm just 50m off the A251.
> 
> View attachment 223564



Looks like she's got parking space for three or four HGVs right there. Kind of her to chip in like that.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Looks like she's got parking space for three or four HGVs right there. Kind of her to chip in like that.


Knowing the Tories she will charge them a premium.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jul 25, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Without Norway Sweden and Finland look even more like a droopy cock and balls.


This is the kind of insightful political analysis missing in most of today’s media. We need more of this!


----------



## Badgers (Jul 25, 2020)

No-deal Brexit would 'kill' Welsh lamb trade - Farmers Weekly
					

A major importer of Welsh lamb into France has warned industry leaders that import tariffs on sheepmeat products in the event of a no-deal Brexit would




					www.fwi.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Jul 26, 2020)

Boris Johnson's dream of a 'Global Britain' is turning into a nightmare
					

Six months ago, Prime Minister Boris Johnson celebrated Brexit by describing Britain as the Superman of global trade.




					amp.cnn.com
				






> Six months ago, Prime Minister Boris Johnson celebrated Brexit by describing Britain as the Superman of global trade.
> 
> Now, the country risks becoming an also-ran, losing its easy access to the huge EU common market, unable to strike a groundbreaking deal with the United States and on the brink of a trade fight with China.
> 
> Trade experts fear this will leave the United Kingdom more isolated than it has been for decades as it fights an unprecedented health and economic crisis. It's already on course for the deepest downturn of any major economy, in part a result of persistent uncertainty tied to Brexit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson's dream of a 'Global Britain' is turning into a nightmare
> 
> 
> Six months ago, Prime Minister Boris Johnson celebrated Brexit by describing Britain as the Superman of global trade.
> ...


We'll be the Clark Kent of global trade.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> My heart bleeds for Helen Whately
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Any relative of the dunwich whateleys?






						"The Dunwich Horror" by H. P. Lovecraft
					

'The Dunwich Horror' by H. P. Lovecraft



					www.hplovecraft.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jul 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We'll be the Clark Kent of global trade.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 29, 2020)

Then and now...


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 31, 2020)

Stolen from elsewhere :-

Dominic Raab “I didn’t know how important food was”


----------



## gentlegreen (Jul 31, 2020)

Minister needed to make sure UK doesn't run out of food after Brexit
					

MPs have warned that a hard Brexit could be a huge risk to the country's food supply.




					metro.co.uk


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 6, 2020)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Aug 6, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


>




Just one more step towards my plan to slice off Kent altogether and push it out to sea.


----------



## existentialist (Aug 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Just one more step towards my plan to slice off Kent altogether and push it out to sea.


As a Remainer, I think the Kent Brexit border thing is a great idea. I really hope it works, and they can consider extending it to the rest of the UK.


----------



## Badgers (Aug 10, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Aug 19, 2020)

Sunlit Uplands


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Brexit free trade talks stalled over UK truckers' access to EU
					

The EU has reportedly denied the UK's request for British truckers to maintain full access to mainland Europe as post-Brexit trade talks resume today. The




					www.cityam.com
				




Knew cabotage would be a problem.    Especially since EUropean haulage wouldn't be using UK'dutied fuel if reciprocated.... Mind you, as a headache, I am reminded of FANS, some large EU hauliers eyes are bigger than their belly


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 225891



Good book, is than the pan continetal edition for when supply chains break down.?


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Still, glad data and telecommications aren't any issue


----------



## Streathamite (Aug 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Boris Johnson's dream of a 'Global Britain' is turning into a nightmare
> 
> 
> Six months ago, Prime Minister Boris Johnson celebrated Brexit by describing Britain as the Superman of global trade.
> ...


Every single problem outlined in that article was pr3edicted by the Remain campaign, in June 2016. Every single one.


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Every single problem outlined in that article was pr3edicted by the Remain campaign, in June 2016. Every single one.


Quite a few problems predicted by the Remain campaign, aren't in that article


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2020)

gosub said:


> Quite a few problems predicted by the Remain campaign, aren't in that article


i don't think anyone expected our economy to be so world-beating as it currently is.


----------



## brogdale (Aug 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Sunlit Uplands



All signalled by the swivel-eyed scum:



Taking back cuntrol


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think anyone expected our economy to be so world-beating as it currently is.


Don't get ahead of yourself, but we are most definitely still in the race


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2020)

gosub said:


> Don't get ahead of yourself, but we are most definitely still in the race


if only it was over and our doing so humiliatingly badly were becoming a distant memory


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if only it was over and our doing so humiliatingly badly were becoming a distant memory


There we be a new series of Dr Who soon, don't worry


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2020)

gosub said:


> There we be a new series of Dr Who soon, don't worry


that's got really shit under the tories too. nothing against the actors, nothing against a female doctor. but the plots have become so abysmally complex and frankly dull. back in the day you wanted to see the doctor trounce the autons or daleks or the master over four or six episodes. it's no fun any more.


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

meanwhile, thank fuck for being up there, near the front


----------



## ska invita (Aug 19, 2020)

gosub said:


> There we be a new series of Dr Who soon, don't worry


some past its sell by date faded BBC glory does seem apt


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> that's got really shit under the tories too. nothing against the actors, nothing against a female doctor. but the plots have become so abysmally complex and frankly dull. back in the day you wanted to see the doctor trounce the autons or daleks or the master over four or six episodes. it's no fun any more.


Agreed, too many single episode self contained episodes not enough longer ones, its bad for kids attention span and gratification development


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

ska invita said:


> some past its sell by date faded BBC glory does seem apt



Nah, think its similar to Star Trek, needs to go back in the cupboard occasionally to maintain magic but pulled out again when another generation comes through


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2020)

gosub said:


> meanwhile, thank fuck for being up there, near the front


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 227163


Not seen it.  Was thinking more of the race's current Covid difficulties


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

All those backward left behind UK universities potentially getting nowhere in coming up with a solution, (I don't know, haven't read the European recently)


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

the advantage IS starting to show....a lot of Chinese kids these days can speak English these days, a lot more than US kids can speak Spanish. Mind you the stuff they can do these days with translation software....within video conferencing, on phones for written and audio,  amazing stuff


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 19, 2020)

Boris and gove must be grateful for covid as a usefully excuse for the next 10 years or more


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> Boris and grove must be grateful for covid as a usefully excuse for the next 10 years or more


gove


----------



## Ax^ (Aug 19, 2020)

edit and the smiley face should not of be there either


----------



## Saul Goodman (Aug 19, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


>



I'd settle for one at Watford Gap, manned by zombies, or 'locals', as they're known in London.


----------



## gosub (Aug 19, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


>



Gave up watching when he said we left 31/1/2020.  We didn't.  EU didn't forfill its  obligations and Brexit happened during 2019. Trans-END finishes at the of 2020


----------



## not-bono-ever (Aug 23, 2020)

the super soarway scum has a "leak" of powerpoint stuff for govt internal discussion only. worst case scenario is interesting.









						Revealed: Emergency plans to protect UK if second coronavirus spike coincides with no-deal Brexit
					

A Cabinet Office "reasonable worst-case scenario" document, dated July 2020, has been leaked to a national newspaper.




					news.sky.com
				




sky rather than the scum. as if it matters


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


>



And you think this blokes views matter why? What's your view of the "analysis" of this liberal loon prick?


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 24, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And you think this blokes views matter why? What's your view of the "analysis" of this liberal loon prick?


fuck off


----------



## redsquirrel (Aug 24, 2020)

Empty as usual - hey here's a video from some YouTube wanker. 
If you too lazy to post a summary (against the rules of the site) don't bother posting the video.


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2020)

It's not really a border around Kent, sounds more like a congestion zone type system for trucks. Also according to the video it's not even happening necessarily, it's one of a number of possibilities being looked at.

This however.... Less easy to dismiss


not-bono-ever said:


> worst case scenario is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Aug 24, 2020)

Strand poly have Brexshit as worse that the global pandemic!


----------



## ska invita (Aug 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Strand poly have Brexshit as worse that the global pandemic!
> 
> View attachment 227747


Is each 0-4 Quarters on that a year? So 4 is one year, 8 is another, 12 a third year etc?
ETA: yes it is 

That Covid bounce looks a little optimistic but who knows


----------



## gosub (Aug 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is each 0-4 Quarters on that a year? So 4 is one year, 8 is another, 12 a third year etc?
> ETA: yes it is
> 
> That Covid bounce looks a little optimistic but who knows


Starting to come across a lot more people who've taken redundancy


----------



## brogdale (Aug 28, 2020)

Unsurprisingly the Saxons are doing their bit to hamper Brexshite...

'Saxons hold up Brexit lorry park'


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2020)

For fans of Johnson's _world beating _administration, here's a little reminder of the stack of legislation that they've got to get through Parliament before December 31st:



Surely, this calls for Grayling?


----------



## ska invita (Aug 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> For fans of Johnson's _world beating _administration, here's a little reminder of the stack of legislation that they've got to get through Parliament before December 31st:
> 
> View attachment 228561
> 
> Surely, this calls for Grayling?


There's no issue with passing bills with their majority though no?


----------



## brogdale (Aug 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> There's no issue with passing bills with their majority though no?


Shouldn't be...but...Johnson's tories; what could possibly go wrong?


----------



## two sheds (Aug 31, 2020)

Parliament's no real use with presidential style government anyway, huge amount of legislation,  all goes through on the nod, no discussions, no scrutiny, no changes, yes indeed what on earth could go wrong?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 1, 2020)

Is this accurate?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Is this accurate?



If it is then it's a spectacularly shit fucking deal, I would imagine that any Japanese  connoisseur of UK cheeses views them as a luxury item and paying a tariff on them adds to the snob value. On the other hand it has signed the death knell for the Toyota and Nissan factories in this country. The only reason they are here is for low tariff access to Europe. Brexit has ended that and the Japanese have signed a deal to import straight from Japan to the EU. This gets rid of the need to build them in this country as well.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 1, 2020)

How about this one ?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Is this accurate?



The suprastate certainly agreed a 'cars for cheese' deal with Japan in 2017.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Unsurprisingly the Saxons are doing their bit to hamper Brexshite...
> 
> 'Saxons hold up Brexit lorry park'



Fucking immigrants


----------



## ska invita (Sep 1, 2020)

Well it looks like the Tories are refusing to buckle over state aid - at the cost of a crash out no deal. I guess on balance (and there's a lot of pros and cons on the scales to be weighed) of where we are now this is good news


----------



## brogdale (Sep 1, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Fucking immigrants


It's Kent; i blame the Jutes...it's always the Jutes.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 2, 2020)

Behold our latest Brexshite negotiator:


----------



## eatmorecheese (Sep 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Behold our latest Brexshite negotiator:
> 
> View attachment 228887



I'm still just a bit flabbergasted that this lizard mouthed misogynist freak, with no experience of negotiating any form of trade deal, is in the frame. He was shunted as PM then lost his safe seat after a grassroots campaign to oust him. And we are going to have to pay this carpetbagging cunt a salary. He gave Prince Philip a _knighthood _ffs


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2020)

Going well then...



> According to a leaked document, ministers are asking hauliers and other industry groups for help to avoid chaos at the border when the Brexit transition period expires at the end of the year.
> 
> But with just four months to go, the government’s preparations still have “critical gaps” while some parts of blueprint are “unmanageable,” the document said.





			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2020)

Going well then... 



> Thousands of British food businesses could be left without the correct labelling required to continue selling to the European Union and Northern Ireland after the UK government missed an industry deadline to advise them on what new rules they will have to follow.











						Brexit: Food companies warn Boris Johnson has missed labelling deadline
					

British food exporters say they have run out of time to produce new packaging for trading with both the EU and Northern Ireland from next year.



					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 3, 2020)




----------



## Supine (Sep 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Going well then...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just wait till they work out the CE Mark will not be valid for UK manufacturers. Chaos is on the way.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2020)

Supine said:


> Just wait till they work out the CE Mark will not be valid for UK manufacturers. Chaos is on the way.



There are going to be far too many of these stories to keep track of I suspect. Which may actually suit Johnson, if it means the news cycle is unable to keep up with the sheer number of catastrophes unfolding simultaneously. That's what's got the tories through this pandemic after all; incompetence and corruption on a scale the human mind is ill-equipped to comprehend.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 3, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> There are going to be far too many of these stories to keep track of I suspect. Which may actually suit Johnson, if it means the news cycle is unable to keep up with the sheer number of catastrophes unfolding simultaneously. That's what's got the tories through this pandemic after all; incompetence and corruption on a scale the human mind is ill-equipped to comprehend.


Omniclusterfuckastrophe


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Well it looks like the Tories are refusing to buckle over state aid - at the cost of a crash out no deal. I guess on balance (and there's a lot of pros and cons on the scales to be weighed) of where we are now this is good news



They are holding out as they may have to nationalise industries with the united kingdom

was that something they used as an angle against labour during the last election




also seriously i work in the export/import industry and we still have fuck all guidance as to what happens at the turn of the year


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Well it looks like the Tories are refusing to buckle over state aid - at the cost of a crash out no deal. I guess on balance (and there's a lot of pros and cons on the scales to be weighed) of where we are now this is good news



State aid. Obviously neoliberal states give private companies all sorts of handouts, bailouts, direct and indirect subsidies etc etc. It only seems to become 'state aid' where there's some prospect of the aid in question actually benefiting the general public.


----------



## Humberto (Sep 3, 2020)

They constantly pump money into the stock market. It's barren of any reason or justice.


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 3, 2020)

End tariffs on UK-made ice cream vans - minister - BBC News
					

The government calls the vehicles a "great British export" and vows to fight for them in trade talks.




					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Humberto (Sep 3, 2020)

clowns


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 4, 2020)

All going swimmingly...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 4, 2020)

> Former PM of Australia Tony Abbott has been appointed a trade envoy, representing the UK in trade talks around the world.



Should all be okay now


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 4, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Should all be okay now


Yeh just when you thought it couldn't get any worse they hire an Aussie reject


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 4, 2020)

slightly dodgy signing there.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 5, 2020)

Phew! Now I feel better about it all. Saved by the ocker


----------



## Badgers (Sep 5, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh just when you thought it couldn't get any worse they hire an Aussie reject


Do you think Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is adding cunts like to distract from his own failings? Or is he setting them up just to take the blame for his despicable leadership and failed policies?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 5, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Do you think Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is adding cunts like to distract from his own failings? Or is he setting them up just to take the blame for his despicable leadership and failed policies?


Both


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 5, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Do you think Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is adding cunts like to distract from his own failings? Or is he setting them up just to take the blame for his despicable leadership and failed policies?



Just more culture war bullshit. I'm sure nobody is expecting Abbott to actually contribute anything. Maybe the desire to give a bung to an otherwise unemployable fellow traveller is a factor, but that would imply some kind of solidarity which I'm not sure these late-era tories are even capable of.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 5, 2020)

He chose Abbott because Trump isn't available. 









						Boris Johnson fascinated by Donald Trump, says ex-ambassador
					

PM is intrigued by Trump’s ‘relationship with the truth’, Kim Darroch writes in new book




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Sep 5, 2020)

It's because we're about to get a turd Australian deal, so we need an authentic Australian turd to oversee it


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Just more culture war bullshit. I'm sure nobody is expecting Abbott to actually contribute anything. Maybe the desire to give a bung to an otherwise unemployable fellow traveller is a factor, but that would imply some kind of solidarity which I'm not sure these late-era tories are even capable of.



Or perhaps they really are stupid enough to think he's the answer.  He does share most of the usual Brexiter fantasies about trade, after all, and as a blundering oaf who knows bollock all about the job he's meant to be doing he'll fit right into Johnson's government.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Just more culture war bullshit. I'm sure nobody is expecting Abbott to actually contribute anything. Maybe the desire to give a bung to an otherwise unemployable fellow traveller is a factor, but that would imply some kind of solidarity which I'm not sure these late-era tories are even capable of.


They're definitely capable of solidarity, if we lived in a society that was actually as meritocratic as they claim, do you think the likes of Johnson, Grayling and Williamson would even be classed as employable?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 6, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Or perhaps they really are stupid enough to think he's the answer.  He does share most of the usual Brexiter fantasies about trade, after all


He does probably know some senior cunts in Australia, and Australia is now trade low hanging fruit and about our physically nearest sympathetic trading partner lol. All part of CANZUK white dreams too.


----------



## Anju (Sep 6, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Or perhaps they really are stupid enough to think he's the answer.  He does share most of the usual Brexiter fantasies about trade, after all, and as a blundering oaf who knows bollock all about the job he's meant to be doing he'll fit right into Johnson's government.



Yes, they're stupid enough to think they're the answer so it's reasonable to assume they genuinely think he is also.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 6, 2020)

the macho bollocks coming from our administration ( directly/ indirectly) and the totally inappropriate recent signing is utterly fucking juvenile .


----------



## andysays (Sep 6, 2020)

Still talking tough

Brexit: Negotiator David Frost says UK not scared of walking away


> The UK's chief Brexit negotiator has said the government is not "scared" of walking away from talks without a trade deal ready to come into force in 2021.





> David Frost said the UK would leave the transition arrangement - which sees it follow many EU rules - "come what may" in December. In contrast, he said Theresa May's team had "blinked and had its bluff called".


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 6, 2020)

andysays said:


> Still talking tough
> 
> Brexit: Negotiator David Frost says UK not scared of walking away


I bet the EU negotiators are shaking in their boots


----------



## gentlegreen (Sep 6, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> I bet the EU negotiators are shaking in their boots


Indeed. Though the UK's leaving will hurt a bit (until even more UK businesses pack their bags and move to the mainland), the bottom line is they can't afford to give in to blackmail.
Presumably the UK going down the plughole may actually benefit the more powerful EU members ?


----------



## steveo87 (Sep 6, 2020)

Brexit: Negotiator David Frost says UK not scared of walking away
					

Britain will leave the transition arrangement in December "come what may", says David Frost.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Nothing else to add, but is he doing it from BEYOND THE GRAVE?????


----------



## Raheem (Sep 6, 2020)

From the other side of the keyhole.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 6, 2020)

steveo87 said:


> Brexit: Negotiator David Frost says UK not scared of walking away
> 
> 
> Britain will leave the transition arrangement in December "come what may", says David Frost.
> ...


It's the only sensible appointment made by the government. Sir david frost has experience looking after the government's interests in the afterlife and he retains the respect of the foremost statesmen and -women of Europe.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's the only sensible appointment made by the government. Sir david frost has experience looking after the government's interests in the afterlife and he retains the respect of the foremost statesmen and -women of Europe.


To the Europeans..._Hello, Good Evening and you're not Welcome_


----------



## brogdale (Sep 6, 2020)

Earwig oh...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 6, 2020)

__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




as above.

how to impress the rest of the world that you are able to handle complex negotiations honestly.


----------



## Flavour (Sep 7, 2020)

Yeah that's not gonna do the UK many favors with either the EU or anyone else really, if they rip up the WA (and by rip up I mean "change or override in any way at all")


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

That’s how desperate Johnson’s negotiating position is; give us a trade deal or we unilaterally impose a hard border on the island of Ireland.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That’s how desperate Johnson’s negotiating position is; give us a trade deal or we unilaterally impose a hard border on the island of Ireland.


The conservatives accidentally(?) encouraging a united Ireland is a giggle.


----------



## Flavour (Sep 7, 2020)

2021 is gonna be interesting


----------



## Poot (Sep 7, 2020)

Flavour said:


> 2021 is gonna be interesting


Please God no.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2020)

The situation regarding control of UK borders, most especially the land border in Ireland is back in the news.
Either that border will remain as untrammeled as travelling between Norfolk and Suffolk, or there will be controls, which arguably make it a hard border.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 7, 2020)

Desperation move I reckon. Don't see it moving the EU but brings back all the concerns and fears over the NI peace deal that had been addressed.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 7, 2020)

Poot said:


> Please God no.


Whilst I agree with that sentiment I fear you will not get your wish


----------



## gosub (Sep 7, 2020)

More a why bother move IMO, there are lot of stresses within the EU that it has shown a tin ear in dealing with.   Might as well bunker down for the time being


----------



## gosub (Sep 7, 2020)

Flavour said:


> 2021 is gonna be interesting



Every year is interesting.  2021 is going to be turbulent


----------



## ska invita (Sep 7, 2020)

Since the agreement to set the border in the Irish Sea has there been any attempt by Westminster to create the infrastructure and bureaucracy necessary for new years day? I don't know but I doubt it. Seems to me this isn't a bluff, it was always the plan. I have memories of Johnson saying in full contradiction at the time of signing the WA that there won't be a border regime, and papers running truth check articles saying yes there will. They were wrong I expect.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2020)

Bill to be introduced on Wednesday for the UK to renege on the Northern Ireland protocol it signed up to.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Since the agreement to set the border in the Irish Sea has there been any attempt by Westminster to create the infrastructure and bureaucracy necessary for new years day? I don't know but I doubt it. Seems to me this isn't a bluff, it was always the plan. I have memories of Johnson saying in full contradiction at the time of signing the WA that there won't be a border regime, and papers running truth check articles saying yes there will. They were wrong I expect.


No idea about actual infrastructure, but the WA had provision for the EU/UK Joint Committee (under Gove) to tie up some of the "lose ends" that remained on NI-GB trade arrangements. I presume that Gove has not got his way, hence the toys out of pram move from Johnson.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 7, 2020)

Great so we are now a banana republic as well as ridden with the plaque.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 7, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Great so we are now a banana republic as well as ridden with the plaque.



tooth decay as well


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Great so we are now a banana republic as well as ridden with the plaque.


No; as someone recently said on social media...if we were a banana republic we would, at least have a democratically elected head of state and....bananas!


----------



## gosub (Sep 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No; as someone recently said on social media...if we were a banana republic we would, at least have a democratically elected head of state and....bananas!


No, we have some bananas


----------



## Supine (Sep 7, 2020)

gosub said:


> No, we have some bananas



Not the nice kind


----------



## gosub (Sep 7, 2020)

Supine said:


> Not the nice kind


I noticed that, they all seem to come from South America these days, quite liked buying West Indies bananas


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Do you think Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is adding cunts like to distract from his own failings? Or is he setting them up just to take the blame for his despicable leadership and failed policies?


Probably a mixture of both. same reason the otherwise useless Liz Truss is still in place


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That’s how desperate Johnson’s negotiating position is; give us a trade deal or we unilaterally impose a hard border on the island of Ireland.


The border will for the EU / free state to set up tho’ - Johnson is using yeah but sovereignty as his blame game offset.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 7, 2020)

Duplicitous cuntitude


----------



## ska invita (Sep 7, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> The border will the EU / free state to set up tho’ - Johnson is using yeah but sovereignty as his blame game offset.


Say that again?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 7, 2020)

Will the EU accept  free for all access scenario between a member state and a non member state? They don’t anywhere else.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 7, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Yeah that's not gonna do the UK many favors with either the EU or anyone else really, if they rip up the WA (and by rip up I mean "change or override in any way at all")


If they even try to do that, they will trash the UK's credit rating, and braodcast to the entire world that you can't negotiate in good faith with the UK. Which will make FTAs - _all_ FTAs - that much harder to achieve.
It's batshit mental.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 7, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The situation regarding control of UK borders, most especially the land border in Ireland is back in the news.
> Either that border will remain as untrammeled as travelling between Norfolk and Suffolk, or there will be controls, which arguably make it a hard border.


Or - which is more likely - a hard border in the Irish Sea, and every single Unionist will go apeshit


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 7, 2020)

The regime may not consider the unionists to be of massive importance now they have a slab of a majority. They did well out of made of fail May,it still rankles the Tory filth that they had to do this. This junta is well versed in ripping up convention and loyalty in their scorched earth take on things. Some sucker will have to deal with this fallout several years down the line.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Or - which is more likely - a hard border in the Irish Sea, and every single Unionist will go apeshit




I believe what Boris Johnson signed up to a year ago was a hard border in the Irish sea. I think the news today is about Boris Johnson, and by default the UK, going back on his word and the issue returning to the nature of the land border in Ireland.

At the last election one mantra was 'everybody said Boris Johnson couldn't get a deal with the EU, but he has...he is wonderful vote for him'. But it looks like a deal for Boris Johnson is like his marriage, a theoretical committment he can renege on when it suits.

He really is a vile utter cunt, yet people still get taken in.


----------



## andysays (Sep 7, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Will the EU accept  free for all access scenario between a member state and a non member state? They don’t anywhere else.


No problem if they don't, Britain can still sell its cheese to Japan


----------



## Raheem (Sep 7, 2020)

Might depend on the Wensleydale secessionists.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 7, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I believe what Boris Johnson signed up to a year ago was a hard border in the Irish sea. I think the news today is about Boris Johnson, and by default the UK, going back on his word and the issue returning to the nature of the land border in Ireland.
> 
> At the last election one mantra was 'everybody said Boris Johnson couldn't get a deal with the EU, but he has...he is wonderful vote for him'. But it looks like a deal for Boris Johnson is like his marriage, a theoretical committment he can renege on when it suits.
> 
> He really is a vile utter cunt, yet people still get taken in.


Agreed absolutely with all you've said, but this is one  situation he can't wriggle out of. That deal came in the form of a mutually legally binding agreement. And we still needs an FTA-type deal. More pertinently, we need it much, much more than the EU or any of its' 27 member states do. 
The inescapable position we are in; either we do everything how the EU wants it, or at least can accept it, olr our economy gvet's completely torpedoed.And I am certain his advisers and civil servants would have told him this.

I actually think they are just flying a kite with today's antics - gauging the reactions.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> The border will for the EU / free state to set up tho’ - Johnson is using yeah but sovereignty as his blame game offset.


A beautiful southern wall that the 'Mexicans' will pay for.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

FWIW, here is Surrey Politics Professor Simon Usherwood's snap summary of "why this is a really bad idea, on pretty much any level, for everyone":


----------



## not a trot (Sep 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No; as someone recently said on social media...if we were a banana republic we would, at least have a democratically elected head of state and....bananas!



Maybe we should replace Johnson with a banana, can't do any worse.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 7, 2020)

Trebles all round for the shorters and forex hedgies!
Win,win.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 7, 2020)

not a trot said:


> Maybe we should replace Johnson with a banana, can't do any worse.


Depends. Would the banana conform to EU regulations?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 7, 2020)

not a trot said:


> Maybe we should replace Johnson with a banana, can't do any worse.


And at least an even chance it might do better


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Sep 7, 2020)

This thread....


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 7, 2020)

gosub said:


> I noticed that, they all seem to come from South America these days, quite liked buying West Indies bananas



The long-running banana wars ended a few years ago. This meant the removal of EU tariffs on South American bananas which were designed to protect former colonial producers in the Caribbean.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 7, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This thread....
> View attachment 229553


Very oblique.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 7, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This thread....
> View attachment 229553


Indeed, we haven’t heard from the Lexiteers in a while.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 7, 2020)

Expect they are busy. All those golden opportunities won't exploit themselves, will they?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 7, 2020)

I believe those who called themselves lexiteers might have thought of the EU as a huge migrant drowning, capitalist exploiting, Empire of Evil.
They might even be right.
However the brexit vote seems to me to be a good example for lexiteers to consider 'be careful what you wish for'. The brexit vote was basically a forever decision, and I wonder if lexiteers are happy with the way things are going, because to me even with the problems of the EU it kind of had a modifying and diluting effect on the eternally in control Etonocracy.
Now we have a situation, with the 80 seat majority and all, where the narrow ruling class can fuck over everybody without even any slight modifying influence from the EU.
I am pretty sure those from the left who voted brexit will sneer at me for what I write, they are pretty puritanical, but the present reality and future prospects fill me with dread.
I have family in Beijing, Hamburg and Shannon and like to think we are moving towards, inching towards, a joined up world, those who ushered in brexit have reinforced nationalism which I see as a dark force.
I will be long dead before this planet realises that it is just this planet.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 8, 2020)

Another casualty in the war on the civil service




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				





> The head of the UK’s government legal department has quit over suggestions that Boris Johnson is trying to row back on parts of last year’s Brexit deal relating to Northern Ireland. Jonathan Jones is the sixth senior Whitehall official to resign this year, amid growing tensions between the prime minister and staff at the top of the civil service. Two officials with knowledge of the situation told the Financial Times that the Treasury solicitor and permanent secretary of the Government Legal Department was leaving his position due to a dispute with Downing Street over its plans to challenge parts of the Brexit withdrawal agreement.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 8, 2020)

I'm sure Johnson's delighted to see the back of civil servants so he can install his mates and sponsors there. The more doctors want to leave (story yesterday), too, run down the NHS and he'll step in to save us all with more privatization. 

Twat


----------



## rubbershoes (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I believe those who called themselves lexiteers might have thought of the EU as a huge migrant drowning, capitalist exploiting, Empire of Evil.
> They might even be right.
> However the brexit vote seems to me to be a good example for lexiteers to consider 'be careful what you wish for'. The brexit vote was basically a forever decision, and I wonder if lexiteers are happy with the way things are going, because to me even with the problems of the EU it kind of had a modifying and diluting effect on the eternally in control Etonocracy.
> Now we have a situation, with the 80 seat majority and all, where the narrow ruling class can fuck over everybody without even any slight modifying influence from the EU.
> ...



But, but..neoliberalism


----------



## ska invita (Sep 8, 2020)

Heres some speculation while we wait for the carnage: If theres a crash out no deal - far from unlikely - then someone has to enforce the hard border between the North and Ireland - neither EU or the UK will want to be the ones to start it - would remain open in the short term as an anachronism? and then mid/long term? reunification seems the natural conclusion
??


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2020)

I don't think I ever dealt with a lawyer who didn't think his job was to add points of disagreement over which there  can be further work for the legal profession. 

Personally I'd suggest spending the first 3 weeks of 2021 assuming MRA and then move quickly when the global political landscape becomes clearer


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Heres some speculation while we wait for the carnage: If theres a crash out no deal - far from unlikely - then someone has to enforce the hard border between the North and Ireland - neither EU or the UK will want to be the ones to start it - would remain open in the short term as an anachronism? and then mid/long term? reunification seems the natural conclusion
> ??



Smaller scale of course but the EU already has small pockets where there is no border with non EU states.

but hopefully the end result will be giving all of the island or Ireland back to the Irish.


----------



## gosub (Sep 8, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Smaller scale of course but the EU already has small pockets where there is no border with non EU states.
> 
> but hopefully the end result will be giving all of the island or Ireland back to the Irish.


 won't solve the whisk(e)y issue


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 8, 2020)

I keep reading this post title as Transubstantiation

Which Adds another perspective I suppose that


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I believe those who called themselves lexiteers might have thought of the EU as a huge migrant drowning, capitalist exploiting, Empire of Evil.
> They might even be right.
> However the brexit vote seems to me to be a good example for lexiteers to consider 'be careful what you wish for'. The brexit vote was basically a forever decision, and I wonder if lexiteers are happy with the way things are going, because to me even with the problems of the EU it kind of had a modifying and diluting effect on the eternally in control Etonocracy.
> Now we have a situation, with the 80 seat majority and all, where the narrow ruling class can fuck over everybody without even any slight modifying influence from the EU.
> ...


pretty much where I'm coming from. The EU is a 100% capitalist, neoliberal institution, by ut's very design and fom its' very inception - but it has instigated more progressive changes in terms of worker protection, consumer protection, reigning in capitalist abuses and environmental protection, than anyBritish government of my adult lifetime.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 8, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> I keep reading this post title as Transubstantiation
> 
> Which Adds another perspective I suppose that


The implications of this new perspective are truly mind-blowing, and I suspect the negotiators have not considered them. If the Eucharist from a Catholic Church in the republic were to be imported into the north of Ireland how would the customs declaration be filled out? Would this truly be the actual body of Christ, in which case it would have to be considered an unprocessed, uncooked meat product? Or would it be considered as a product of vegetable origin, albeit possibly a problem for those with wheat intolerance? Some may see this as theological hair-splitting, but I and many others are prepared to start a new religious war on this precise issue. (Admittedly I’ve not yet decided whose side to be on).


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The implications of this new perspective are truly mind-blowing, and I suspect the negotiators have not considered them. If the Eucharist from a Catholic Church in the republic were to be imported into the north of Ireland how would the customs declaration be filled out? Would this truly be the actual body of Christ, in which case it would have to be considered an unprocessed, uncooked meat product? Or would it be considered as a product of vegetable origin, albeit possibly a problem for those with wheat intolerance? Some may see this as theological hair-splitting, but I and many others are prepared to start a new religious war on this precise issue. (Admittedly I’ve not yet decided whose side to be on).




I can see an EU blood-of-Christ-lake issue arising soon enough.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 8, 2020)

There is a lot of talk about customs declarations, checks away from borders, electronic stuff and more.
But in sweaty reality what is supposed to happen when there are seemingly two different systems either side of a border (300+ miles, 200+ crossing points) and people and vehicles traverse back and forth with narry an acknowledgement of a border?
If there is no paperwork to cross reference against anything, if no cameras or what not are there, or if they are they draw a blank, if a person or people move about without carrying ID, and so on...does it all get ignored, the turn a blind eye option or more appropriately optics?
Unless there is the same stuff either side of a border, then because of differences some kind of interception or challenge takes place by those for whom it matters, ergo a hard border. Managed and operated somehow.
Need I add that such sweaty, organic, practical realities on the Irish border still comes up against the GFA and the examples from history.
Seeing as how there is money to be made from conflict, even death, could it be the intention of those connected to the Etonocracy to create conflict and death for profit?
Those bullets won't fire themselves after all!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Seeing as how there is money to be made from conflict, even death, could it be the intention of those connected to the *Etonocracy* to create conflict and death for profit?
> Those bullets won't fire themselves after all!



How many of the current cabinet went to Eton?


----------



## philosophical (Sep 8, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many of the current cabinet went to Eton?


Dunno, but I apologise if that term is not terribly precise, I intend to point up the narrow general experience of those in charge.
For example Baroness Dido Harding was on the same course at Oxford as David Cameron who is in the same hooray henry Bullenden picture as Boris Johnson and I believe Michael Gove.
For the life of me I can't think of any of the buggers (of both main parties) who grew up and were educated in my borough Lewisham... beyond my local MP Janet Daby, and she went to school in Greenwich.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Dunno, but I apologise if that term is not terribly precise, I intend to point up the narrow general experience of those in charge.
> For example Baroness Dido Harding was on the same course at Oxford as David Cameron who is in the same hooray henry Bullenden picture as Boris Johnson and I believe Michael Gove.
> For the life of me I can't think of any of the buggers (of both main parties) who grew up and were educated in my borough Lewisham... beyond my local MP Janet Daby, and she went to school in Greenwich.




Johnston went to Eton, not sure any other cabinet member did. Obviously Dido Harding didn't. Many people went to Oxford, such as Howard Marks, Gove did too but wasn't in the Bullingdon Club, Gove was considered too clever to hang around with that lot. Creitinocracy covers what you're after well enough.


----------



## philosophical (Sep 8, 2020)

Or not from Lewishamocracy.


----------



## Smangus (Sep 8, 2020)

I'd be up for a Lewishamocracy, being in Catford like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Johnston went to Eton, not sure any other cabinet member did. Obviously Dido Harding didn't. Many people went to Oxford, such as Howard Marks, Gove did too but wasn't in the Bullingdon Club, Gove was considered too clever to hang around with that lot. Creitinocracy covers what you're after well enough.


Kakocracy


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Smangus said:


> I'd be up for a Lewishamocracy, being in Catford like.


That'd be the business


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 8, 2020)

Squealing middle-class liberals wonder where all the decent Tory MPs have gone...you know, the ones that will put a stop to 'all this madness'


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> Squealing middle-class liberals wonder where all the decent Tory MPs have gone...you know, the ones that will put a stop to 'all this madness'



The decent Tories are dead and gone
They're with Ken clarke, in the grave


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 8, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Do you think Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson is adding cunts like to distract from his own failings? Or is he setting them up just to take the blame for his despicable leadership and failed policies?



Maybe he likes budgie smugglers?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How many of the current cabinet went to Eton?


tbf, all but a handful of them attended at least one private school.
It would be fairer to call it the privilegeocracy, if that weren't such a mouthful


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> There is a lot of talk about customs declarations, checks away from borders, electronic stuff and more.
> But in sweaty reality what is supposed to happen when there are seemingly two different systems either side of a border (300+ miles, 200+ crossing points) and people and vehicles traverse back and forth with narry an acknowledgement of a border?
> If there is no paperwork to cross reference against anything, if no cameras or what not are there, or if they are they draw a blank, if a person or people move about without carrying ID, and so on...does it all get ignored, the turn a blind eye option or more appropriately optics?
> Unless there is the same stuff either side of a border, then because of differences some kind of interception or challenge takes place by those for whom it matters, ergo a hard border. Managed and operated somehow.
> ...


In  truth, they know they have to put a hard border in the Irish Sea. To put one betweeen NI and tne Republic breaks the WA and the GFA, and makes deals with both the EU and the USA virtually impossible


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> tbf, all but a handful of them attended at least one private school.
> It would be fairer to call it the privilegeocracy, if that weren't such a mouthful


It doesn't really illuminate. They are the government of all the talentless


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> There is a lot of talk about customs declarations, checks away from borders, electronic stuff and more.
> But in sweaty reality what is supposed to happen when there are seemingly two different systems either side of a border (300+ miles, 200+ crossing points) and people and vehicles traverse back and forth with narry an acknowledgement of a border?
> If there is no paperwork to cross reference against anything, if no cameras or what not are there, or if they are they draw a blank, if a person or people move about without carrying ID, and so on...does it all get ignored, the turn a blind eye option or more appropriately optics?
> Unless there is the same stuff either side of a border, then because of differences some kind of interception or challenge takes place by those for whom it matters, ergo a hard border. Managed and operated somehow.
> ...


I should add: you *have* to have a border, with full apparatus and infrastructure for checking *everything* crossing it, either between North and South, or at the point of the Irish Sea.
Because otherwise you will have created - albeit by default - the biggest smugglers bonanza in history. And there is no way thr EU will tolerate that.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It doesn't really illuminate. They are the government of all the talentless


they most certainly are. they make Cameron's bunch look talented


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> they most certainly are. they make Cameron's bunch look talented


The happiest ghost in Britain is the spectre of Neville Chamberlain, as Johnson's piece of paper has finally outdone the shame of munich


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> In  truth, they know they have to put a hard border in the Irish Sea. To put one betweeen NI and tne Republic breaks the WA and the GFA, and makes deals with both the EU and the USA virtually impossible


Think it would make deals with anywhere virtually impossible, except maybe Russia.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think it would make deals with anywhere virtually impossible, except maybe Russia.


yup. having a start point of 'we're totally untrustworthy' is a pretty lousy way of opening negotiations


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> yup. having a start point of 'we're totally untrustworthy' is a pretty lousy way of opening negotiations


It's not just that. The government seems to acknowledge that its border arrangements would be illegal. In the near term, I think it's unlikely that any country would want a trade deal, because the deal itself would be not be stable and would be vulnerable to legal challenge.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 8, 2020)

Or the EU could just give us a Canadian style deal?


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Or the EU could just give us a Canadian style deal?


Why would they?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> It's not just that. The government seems to acknowledge that its border arrangements would be illegal. In the near term, I think it's unlikely that any country would want a trade deal, because the deal itself would be not be stable and would be vulnerable to legal challenge.


yes, quite right, I overlooked that


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Why would they?


Pity


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Or the EU could just give us a Canadian style deal?


Bit ambitious unless we can get some people less shit at negotiating.


----------



## Supine (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Or the EU could just give us a Canadian style deal?



I don't see how a Canada style deal which focuses on things like maple syrup and timber sales is seen as suitable for our complex relationship with the EU.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 8, 2020)

you're forgetting that we have cheese


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Bit ambitious unless we can get some people less shit at negotiating.



I haven’t been keeping up with it all that much but got the impression that we were sticking it to the bullies from Brussels.









						Brexit: Negotiator David Frost says UK not scared of walking away
					

Britain will leave the transition arrangement in December "come what may", says David Frost.



					www.google.com


----------



## Raheem (Sep 8, 2020)

Ooh. Nice alliteration.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I haven’t been keeping up with it all that much but got the impression that we were sticking it to the bullies from Brussels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't believe all the propaganda


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

existentialist said:


> Don't believe all the propaganda


It's all he believes


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Bit ambitious unless we can get some people less shit at negotiating.


Yeh they all work for the EU, we have their rejects working for the government


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I haven’t been keeping up with it all that much but got the impression that we were sticking it to the bullies from Brussels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You going to stick it to the Irish as well, while you're at it? Sneak in that hard border?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> you're forgetting that we have cheese


Not any more we're going to flog it all to the japs


Marty1 said:


> Or the EU could just give us a Canadian style deal?


The problem with that is straightforward, we're not Canada, they're three thousand miles away on the other side of a whopping great ocean whereas we are next doors. The nature of the trade is different as well, a lot of Canada's is raw materials and foodstuffs whereas ours is services and much of our manufacturing is tightly integrated with the EU's. The EU doesn't want the UK to become a source of much cheapness on the doorstep undercutting them. That's why they're insisting on a level(ish) playing field whereas the Etoncracy (I love that word) would be quite happy to turn us all into coolies.
The EU wants to avoid a No Deal Brexit (it will cost them billions) but not at the cost of undermining the free market which is one of their fundamental principles. Whereas we seem to have a Govt that enjoys playing chicken despite the fact they have a Mini and the EU has a 40 ton truck.
The EU is negotiating in what it perceives is its best interest and they appear to be better at it than our Govt is. I still can't get my head around the Japan Deal, You can sell us cars tariff-free if you buy some fucking cheese. My grandson is three and a half and he is better at negotiating than these tossers.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I haven’t been keeping up with it all that much but got the impression that we were sticking it to the bullies from Brussels.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


ooh..that's a good one...oh save my sides AHAHAHAHA!!
err yeah, like we are in any pozsition _whatsoever_ to do that. Doh!


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 8, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ooh..that's a good one...oh save my sides AHAHAHAHA!!
> err yeah, like we are in any pozsition whatsoe ver to do that. Doh!


It's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's wicked to mock the afflicted


But it's FUN, dammit!


----------



## two sheds (Sep 8, 2020)

Fucking atrociously written Guardian article. Quite entertaining in parts but when it pretends to report what Brandon Lewis  (NI secretary) actually said in Parliament it just makes shit up. Fine if they interspersed it with actual quotes but it's useless for actual information. I hate it when they do this - some of their articles are filled with supposedly funny 'ironic' writing that is just a waste of reading time.









						Brandon Lewis breaks cardinal law for MPs and tells the half-truth | John Crace
					

Briefed to bluff, the Northern Ireland secretary failed to defend his boss’s Brexit U-turn




					www.theguardian.com
				






> So he began to say any old nonsense that came into his head. Yes, Boris had had a bit of a brain freeze when he had negotiated the withdrawal agreement and it was a bit shit but everyone was entitled to a bit of an off-day. The Brexit deal had never made complete sense so it was only right that the Boris should try to tie up a few loose ends by ignoring something that had been agreed both by the UK and the EU. But people shouldn’t be too quick to pre-judge the situation. Just wait until Wednesday when the government published its new get-out-of-jail internal market bill and see if the EU was still complaining then. Clue: it would be. As would almost everyone else.
> 
> ...
> 
> Eventually Brandon cracked. Asked yet again, this time by Tory Bob Neill, if the government was planning to break international law, Lewis made the schoolboy error of giving an almost honest response. Yes, of course we would be breaking the law, he snapped. But we would only be doing it in a little way and not so much that anyone would notice. It would be no worse than doing a little, gentle recreational shoplifting after school. All shops priced in a bit of pilfering to their balance sheet so there would be no harm done. It wasn’t as if we were planning to nuke Brussels. Though Boris might like to keep that option on the table.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Fucking atrociously written Guardian article. Quite entertaining in parts but when it pretends to report what Brandon Lewis  (NI secretary) actually said in Parliament it just makes shit up. Fine if they interspersed it with actual quotes but it's useless for actual information. I hate it when they do this - some of their articles are filled with supposedly funny 'ironic' writing that is just a waste of reading time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


tbf, it's the parliamentary sketch. Traditionally, sketch-writers have always been allowed fairly broad latitude on things like truth. It's not _meant_ to be straight reportage.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 8, 2020)

ok fair play - all they needed to do  though was to throw in a couple of actual  quotes.. Show what they were lampooning.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 8, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ok fair play - all they needed to do  though was to throw in a couple of actual  quotes.. Show what they were lampooning.


I generally use John Crace's column as a steer to the more relevant Parliamentary stoties. And for the biting wit.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 9, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Not any more we're going to flog it all to the japs



Actually, we prefer the word "Japanese".


----------



## andysays (Sep 9, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Not any more we're going to flog it all to the japs
> 
> The problem with that is straightforward, we're not Canada, they're three thousand miles away on the other side of a whopping great ocean whereas we are next doors. The nature of the trade is different as well, a lot of Canada's is raw materials and foodstuffs whereas ours is services and much of our manufacturing is tightly integrated with the EU's. The EU doesn't want the UK to become a source of much cheapness on the doorstep undercutting them. That's why they're insisting on a level(ish) playing field whereas the Etoncracy (I love that word) would be quite happy to turn us all into coolies.
> The EU wants to avoid a No Deal Brexit (it will cost them billions) but not at the cost of undermining the free market which is one of their fundamental principles. Whereas we seem to have a Govt that enjoys playing chicken despite the fact they have a Mini and the EU has a 40 ton truck.
> The EU is negotiating in what it perceives is its best interest and they appear to be better at it than our Govt is. I still can't get my head around the Japan Deal, You can sell us cars tariff-free if you buy some fucking cheese. My grandson is three and a half and he is better at negotiating than these tossers.


It's like the government gave the contract for the negotiations to these two


----------



## teqniq (Sep 9, 2020)

The reaction from accross the pond is not favourable:


----------



## two sheds (Sep 9, 2020)

Ah of course, the americans see the GFA as one of their major diplomatic triumphs, I was wondering why they'd be bothered by Johnson telling the EU to do one.


----------



## Winot (Sep 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Ah of course, the americans see the GFA as one of their major diplomatic triumphs, I was wondering why they'd be bothered by Johnson telling the EU to do one.



Pelosi has said that if the GFA is threatened then the Democrats will block any US-UK trade deal (assuming they still control the House).

This latest development is nuts. I can only imagine the thinking is similar to the illegal prorogation of Parliament - to be able to claim that BJ/Cummings 'stood up to' the EU but were prevented from doing so by the metropolitan liberal elite (aka the House of Lords).


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 9, 2020)

teqniq said:


> The reaction from accross the pond is not favourable:
> 
> View attachment 229676



Quite right, too. We're grateful for the US input in bringing peace (or at least, a version of peace) to Ireland. Won't be a good look for the British government if they piss all over it.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 9, 2020)

The Scottish Govt has said it won't consent to this bill, being very interesting to see where that leads. Holyrood can't override Westminster but it does have real legal authority where devolved matters are concerned. This could turn out to be BoZo and Blind Dominic  picking yet another pointless fucking fight.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 9, 2020)

we are not actually any further along then when theresa may was grimmly shuttling back and forth between the EU and parliament and getting nowhere. its no deal or a shit deal and it always has been since the ending of free movement was made a cornerstone of the UK's position. 
We will be back to escalating panic at the prospect of a  "no deal" crunch - then the uk will blink and engineer another fucking extension.


----------



## Winot (Sep 9, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> we are not actually any further along then when theresa may was grimmly shuttling back and forth between the EU and parliament and getting nowhere. its no deal or a shit deal and it always has been since the ending of free movement was made a cornerstone of the UK's position.
> We will be back to escalating panic at the prospect of a  "no deal" crunch - then the uk will blink and engineer another fucking extension.



Very very difficult to extend at this point as I understand it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Sep 9, 2020)

Winot said:


> Very very difficult to extend at this point as I understand it.



I think political necessity will deliver another dollop of fudge. Although the EU may just finally fuck the uk off; resulting in a period  of chaos brought about by economic pain, shortages and gridlocked bureaucracy and a step by step , piecemeal deal emerging. It will still be shit.
May well end johnsons premiership at the  point that all the bluster and self delusion hits reality and the cunt chokes on his "oven ready" bullshit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

The post-brexit trade deal is predicated on there being trade post-brexit which seems a mistaken assumption


----------



## TopCat (Sep 9, 2020)

The pound is losing value quite quickly and I think will continue to fall. At what value will interest rates have to rise?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The pound is losing value quite quickly and I think will continue to fall. At what value will interest rates have to rise?


And then we'll see things properly go to shit


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 9, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Actually, we prefer the words “Lactose intolerant  Japanese".



Fify.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Ah of course, the americans see the GFA as one of their major diplomatic triumphs, I was wondering why they'd be bothered by Johnson telling the EU to do one.



They have so few...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Ah of course, the americans see the GFA as one of their major diplomatic triumphs, I was wondering why they'd be bothered by Johnson telling the EU to do one.


Being as they're a guarantor of the agreement the nefandous Johnson leaves them little option. They don't claim it as one of their major DTs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

.


----------



## andysays (Sep 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as they're a guarantor of the agreement the nefandous Johnson leaves them little option. They don't claim it as one of their major DTs.


you can say that again...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> you can say that again...


That


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 9, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The Scottish Govt has said it won't consent to this bill, being very interesting to see where that leads. Holyrood can't override Westminster but it does have real legal authority where devolved matters are concerned. This could turn out to be BoZo and Blind Dominic  picking yet another pointless fucking fight.



They don't care. At all.

They are also intent on undermining devolution and rendering it largely meaningless next year through what's being called "the UK internal market".


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Ah of course, the americans see the GFA as one of their major diplomatic triumphs, I was wondering why they'd be bothered by Johnson telling the EU to do one.


Not just that; there's a huge number of Americans with Irish roots, plus those of Catholic faith, adds up to a powerful lobby


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 9, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> They don't care. At all.
> 
> They are also intent on undermining devolution and rendering it largely meaningless next year through what's being called "the UK internal market".


yep. I  really hope Nicola & co find a way of sticking it to them


----------



## philosophical (Sep 9, 2020)

It is less important whose triumph the Good Friday/Belfast is, than it happened at all.
For a huge part of my life the Irish troubles loomed large, then the GFA has hugely improved the situation.
Very very few groups have said the GFA has been a bad or undesirable thing.
Any that have done are at the extremes of opinion.
That you can (could) bowl along the highways and byways in Ireland like bowling along between Cambridgeshire and Lincolnshire has to my mind been a great thing.
I think the sensitivities and caution are very justified.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It is less important whose triumph the Good Friday/Belfast is, than it happened at all.
> For a huge part of my life the Irish troubles loomed large, then the GFA has hugely improved the situation.
> Very very few groups have said the GFA has been a bad or undesirable thing.
> Any that have done are at the extremes of opinion.
> ...


How has it improved the situation? Has it removed the cause of conflict, the border? Many years ago I saw Bernadette McAliskey talk at the London Irish centre. She said any peace deal would have to remove the causes of conflict or else in years to come things would kick off again. And I think they will, in a few years time, unless something's done to prevent that


----------



## Raheem (Sep 9, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> They are also intent on undermining devolution and rendering it largely meaningless next year through what's being called "the UK internal market".


We all know "internal" is just a fancypants way of saying "indoor".


----------



## two sheds (Sep 9, 2020)

while bringing to mind 'car boot sale'


----------



## philosophical (Sep 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How has it improved the situation? Has it removed the cause of conflict, the border? Many years ago I saw Bernadette McAliskey talk at the London Irish centre. She said any peace deal would have to remove the causes of conflict or else in years to come things would kick off again. And I think they will, in a few years time, unless something's done to prevent that



It has improved the situation because there is less violence, I haven't said it has solved the problem.

I am conflicted because I believe Irish nationalism is valid in order to loosen the grip of perfidious Albion, but I am not a fan of nationalism as such, as in my opinion the concept sails too close to the winds of racism.

Conflicted as I say, but first things first, and the GFA was a decent step in a good direction.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 9, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It has improved the situation because there is less violence, I haven't said it has solved the problem.
> 
> I am conflicted because I believe Irish nationalism is valid in order to loosen the grip of perfidious Albion, but I am not a fan of nationalism as such, as in my opinion the concept sails too close to the winds of racism.
> 
> Conflicted as I say, but first things first, and the GFA was a decent step in a good direction.



Irish nationalism tends to be socialist and inclusive. Which makes it different to standard nationalism.


Which isn't to say that bigotry isn't rearing it's ugly head from far right nationalists in Ireland but so far, they are on the fringe.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How has it improved the situation? Has it removed the cause of conflict, the border?


Being optimistic, there's mechanisms there for reunification referenda, and I can now see those happening, and passing, within the hext 10-15 years. Mind, then it becomes a question of whether Unionist paramilitary resistance resurfaces


----------



## andysays (Sep 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> How has it improved the situation? Has it removed the cause of conflict, the border? Many years ago I saw Bernadette McAliskey talk at the London Irish centre. She said any peace deal would have to remove the causes of conflict or else in years to come things would kick off again. And I think they will, in a few years time, unless something's done to prevent that


It's a magic invisible border, as long as you can't see it, you can believe it isn't really there.

Kind of like the emperor's new clothes in reverse.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 9, 2020)

Anyhow things will be sorted now, I just heard Hair Starmer say that a post-Brexit trade deal is in the national interest.  Good to know we have such giants of stating the bleeding obvious in parliament.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 9, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Anyhow things will be sorted now, I just heard Hair Starmer say that a post-Brexit trade deal is in the national interest.  Good to know we have such giants of stating the bleeding obvious in parliament.


It's spelt herr


----------



## Raheem (Sep 9, 2020)

But herr is heard hair here.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 9, 2020)

have i got this right? i find it all really hard to follow, but seems to me:

they must've had this move all planned before the signing of the Withdrawal Agreement - the evidence being that Johnson was overhead to say when pissed that there'd be no paperwork necessary - no border down the sea effectively - and lo and behold. so the plan then was get the WA through as was, but secretly know that when the time came they'd pull this manoeuvre.
???

if this goes through to a no deal scenario - surely the plan - then the onus will fall onto Ireland and the EU to enforce the border - which they won't dare to do because of the Good Friday Agreement.

seems to work in the short term, though i cant believe that the border anomaly won't be tested and exploited and ultimately lead to reunification

??


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> have i got this right? i find it all really hard to follow, but seems to me:
> 
> they must've had this move all planned before the signing of the Withdrawal Agreement - the evidence being that Johnson was overhead to say when pissed that there'd be no paperwork necessary - no border down the sea effectively - and lo and behold. so the plan then was get the WA through as was, but secretly know that when the time came they'd pull this manoeuvre.
> ???
> ...




Either that or Johnson’s telling lies again.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 9, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Either that or Johnson’s telling lies again.



is it an either/or?


----------



## gosub (Sep 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> have i got this right? i find it all really hard to follow, but seems to me:
> 
> they must've had this move all planned before the signing of the Withdrawal Agreement - the evidence being that Johnson was overhead to say when pissed that there'd be no paperwork necessary - no border down the sea effectively - and lo and behold. so the plan then was get the WA through as was, but secretly know that when the time came they'd pull this manoeuvre.
> ???
> ...



That in part I think will depend on how the EUrozone develops.  Full federal with tax harminization would be a cup of cold sick to Dublin.
One things for sure EU's current Covid economic response isn't nearly enough and it was hard enough politically to get what they did


----------



## philosophical (Sep 9, 2020)

I imagine if there is no agreement then the Republic and the EU will be absent or somehow tokenistic on the EU/UK land border, but dot and comma, and hour and minute, and clause and sub clause, and pound and euro on every other border.
One thing that might exist is an Ealing Comedy scenario, the clue being when a while or so back the UK explored the idea of floating power stations to supply electricity in Northern Ireland.
If the UK tells the EU to fuck off, then it might also lead to lights off!
Because I believe 70% of Northern Ireland Electricity comes in from the Republic!


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if this goes through to a no deal scenario - surely the plan - then the onus will fall onto Ireland and the EU to enforce the border - which they won't dare to do because of the Good Friday Agreement.
> 
> seems to work in the short term, though i cant believe that the border anomaly won't be tested and exploited and ultimately lead to reunification


They can't afford not to, either, because to have no hard border between an EU mdember State and a 3rd country will in efect turn every day into xmas day for Europe's criminal classes.
SO: they'll almost certainly sue, and withhold ALL market access from the UK to the EU.
They simply can't afford to let the UK pull this stunt


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 9, 2020)

i said this earlier- this is a way to deflect the blame for the realisation of a hard border back to the EU. Its utterly childish, transparent and bereft of any accepted diplomatic convention, whatever we think of the EU. its not a good look for the Brits doing this and will erode whatever standing we have left in the world.  which isn't much TBF.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 10, 2020)

and not the first time she's said it...


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2020)

teqniq said:


> and not the first time she's said it...
> 
> "If the U.K. violates that international treaty and Brexit undermines the Good Friday accord, there will be absolutely no chance of a U.S.-U.K. trade agreement passing the Congress."


Hopefully that means the grubby cunts stay away from the NHS and our farming/food standards are not ruined? 

#clutchingatstraws


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 10, 2020)

How much Wensleydale were the US up for taking off our hands?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How much Wensleydale were the US up for taking off our hands?


4kg per year 

Also 400 tonnes of it in aerosol cans per week


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How much Wensleydale were the US up for taking off our hands?


Everything from hawes to aysgarth


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

teqniq said:


> and not the first time she's said it...



re that I read a tweet thread that suggested that the illegal Internal Market Bill was also motivated to meet the needs of a US trade bill, as a level internal market within the UK was another prerequisite for a deal (?) - which suggests a US deal is scuppered one way or another. This is all beyond me tbh, can barely understand it


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2020)

Last year Johnson lied to the queen
This year he's making her a criminal


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2020)

What happens if Britain breaks international law then? EU sanctions? I doubt it. It will go down great with the Brexit faithful and makes the EU the bad guy when they have to stick a hard border in Ireland.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

Useful explainer of the Internal Market Bill by the IFG here.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> What happens if Britain breaks international law then? EU sanctions? I doubt it. It will go down great with the Brexit faithful and makes the EU the bad guy when they have to stick a hard border in Ireland.



 Summary here:


----------



## magneze (Sep 10, 2020)

What can the ECJ do to a non-member?
Does (3) mean invasion?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

magneze said:


> What can the ECJ do to a non-member?
> Does (3) mean invasion?


sanctions i think


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2020)

magneze said:


> What can the ECJ do to a non-member?
> Does (3) mean invasion?



They can three-quarters blockade us if they're serious enough.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2020)

magneze said:


> What can the ECJ do to a non-member?
> Does (3) mean invasion?



Suspend its obligations under the withdrawal agreement, apparently. In other words, all bets are off.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2020)

Of course, Cummings would love to go to war with the EU (metaphorically and literally I suspect).


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2020)

How's about we give them Johnson, farage and gove to do with as they will and they let us back in?


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 10, 2020)

A third of the UK economy is financial services, this is 2020 it can be shut down by unplugging Internet cables. Much of the rest can be closed by locking the gates at Calais.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How much Wensleydale were the US up for taking off our hands?


Not enough


----------



## philosophical (Sep 10, 2020)

One way to distract and 'unite the country' might be to declare war on Luxembourg.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

All you remoaners are so negative.  Look on the bright side FFS:


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2020)

Good to see people are adjusting to life outside the EU.


----------



## magneze (Sep 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> They can three-quarters blockade us if they're serious enough.


What does that mean?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

magneze said:


> Does (3) mean invasion?


They don't have to do that. All they need to do is end passporting for the UK financial services sector, and bremove all UK tradew access to EU. Pretty much the entire UK economy, instantly crippled


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

magneze said:


> What does that mean?


I presume 'block' borders via wales, scotland and england ... less so N Ireland


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2020)

Owen Jones makes a lot of sense in this article on Brexit. Brexit is back – and Labour's dilemma has not changed | Owen Jones


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Owen Jones makes a lot of sense in this article on Brexit. Brexit is back – and Labour's dilemma has not changed | Owen Jones


Agree with the Labour bit, but less so the opening lines " The latest Tory ruse on Brexit is tediously straightforward. By talking up no deal and expressing a willingness to flout international law, the Conservatives _intend to bounce Brussels into a favourable agreement while torturing their Labour opponents. "_

Which suggests theres no plan for a no deal, its all just a ruse. Might be true, but I think no deal looks much the more likely option

Good explainer here on regards bluff or not:


Good morning. No border protocol, no party: that's the message from Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House. She has warned that in the event the British government unpicks or walks away from measures designed to ensure the continuity of an invisible, frictionless border between Ireland and Northern Ireland, there is no prospect of a US-UK trade deal being passed by Congress.

That shouldn't be surprising - Robert Lighthizer, Donald Trump's trade representative, told a Congressional committee in June that there would be no point negotiating a US-UK trade deal in the event that a hard border returns to the island of Ireland.

It's worth noting that, as written, the Internal Market Bill would not prevent the emergence of some new barriers between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom - which is one reason why the European Research Group are, per _Sky_'s Sam Coates, calling for the government to go further in banning east-to-west checks.

It is far from clear as it stands that the Internal Market Bill can even pass Parliament - it will struggle to make it through the House of Lords unscathed and it is not certain that this Downing Street's parliamentary management is up to the task of repelling multiple amendments in the House of Commons.

Now, if in reality Boris Johnson secretly wants a deal, he has the votes to pass one, because the choice before the opposition parties will be between Johnson's deal and no-deal. They have no leverage to improve the terms of the deal - the only button they can press is to avert no-deal by facilitating the passage of Johnson's deal, whether through abstention or active support. But does Johnson want a deal?

While in Brussels, the numbers of people who think that the British government wants a deal is in sharp decline after this week's developments, at Westminster, the idea that all of this is just posturing won't die. Some Leavers still fear another betrayal - that Johnson will use the theatre of a high-stakes last-minute deal to smuggle in a swathe of concessions. And for some Conservative ministers, that it is all bluff is how they justify remaining inside the government in private. And it's possible that both those groups are right: that just as Johnson claimed that his embrace of the European Commission's original plan to just put a border in the Irish Sea was a British diplomatic triumph he will, in December, be hailing an accord that compromises on state aid and fishing as great victories against the European Union.

*But if you look at the detail of what the government is asking for on state aid, the fight it is opting to pick over Northern Ireland with both the European Union and the United States, is that the British government is making a virtue of reducing its wriggle room, and that Downing Street's expressed priorities can only be met through a no deal Brexit. As it stands, we have no reason not to take that seriously. The possibility that will end the new year in the grip of multiple overlapping economic, parliamentary and health crises is a real and dangerous one.*


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> They don't have to do that. All they need to do is end passporting for the UK financial services sector, and bremove all UK tradew access to EU. Pretty much the entire UK economy, instantly crippled



Passporting is dead anyway afaik.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

Winot said:


> Passporting is dead anyway afaik.


I thought it was essential for the City's business?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 10, 2020)

Barnier will huff and puff his  cheeks out but it wont end in a trade war. Too much for the EU to lose.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Barnier will huff and puff his  cheeks out but it wont end in a trade war. Too much for the EU to lose.



This is the old 'they'll blink at the last minute' line.  They probably won't.  They've a lot less to lose than the UK, and protecting the single market is a lot more important to them than cutting a deal.  This either ends in capitulation by the UK, like last year, or 'no deal.'


----------



## Flavour (Sep 10, 2020)

At the same time they can't let the UK take the piss, they have to make an example of / punish the UK in order to maintain the integrity of the EU. I don't think the worst case scenario (for the government) of a no deal with hard border in Ireland and sanctions against UK is all that unlikely to be honest. Will be shit for all the EU citizens in the UK and UK citizens in the EU though that's for damn sure, if the WA is torn up


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> This is the old 'they'll blink at the last minute' line.  They probably won't.  They've a lot less to lose than the UK, and protecting the single market is a lot more important to them than cutting a deal.  This either ends in capitulation by the UK, like last year, or 'no deal.'


Spot on. The EU simply can't _afford_ to blink - and ultimately, they don't need to. We need that deal more than they do.


----------



## Winot (Sep 10, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I thought it was essential for the City's business?



Not sure. Not an expert. I _think_ passporting can be replaced with equivalence, but that it’s not clear how much and for what reason the UK wants to diverge.









						Brexit isn’t done: what next for financial services?
					

For decades, Conservative and Labour governments lauded the financial sector as the UK’s pre-eminent economic asset. The City of London was hailed as the source of lavish tax revenues and as an emblem of national pride. In his June 2007 Mansion House speech, Gordon Brown spoke of “an era that...




					www.newstatesman.com


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2020)

Owen Jones via Ska Invita said:
			
		

> *But if you look at the detail of what the government is asking for on state aid, the fight it is opting to pick over Northern Ireland with both the European Union and the United States, is that the British government is making a virtue of reducing its wriggle room, and that Downing Street's expressed priorities can only be met through a no deal Brexit. As it stands, we have no reason not to take that seriously. The possibility that will end the new year in the grip of multiple overlapping economic, parliamentary and health crises is a real and dangerous one.*



Think this underlined part is mistaken because Johnson has not being gradually reducing his wiggle-room. He threw it away at the start of the year. So it has been ineveitable since then that we would at some point have to get to a point where the choice is for him to climb down or for there to be no deal, which is where we are.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think this underlined part is mistaken because Johnson has not being gradually reducing his wiggle-room. He threw it away at the start of the year. So it has been ineveitable since then that we would at some point have to get to a point where the choice is for him to climb down or for there to be no deal, which is where we are.


that big quote was from Stephen Bush btw - I shouldve made that clear


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Agree with the Labour bit, but less so the opening lines " The latest Tory ruse on Brexit is tediously straightforward. By talking up no deal and expressing a willingness to flout international law, the Conservatives _intend to bounce Brussels into a favourable agreement while torturing their Labour opponents. "_
> 
> Which suggests theres no plan for a no deal, its all just a ruse. Might be true, but I think no deal looks much the more likely option
> 
> ...


  ERG have a new chair apparently. Things might change


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

Tories can't back down now , it'll look like surrender... Can only mean no deal surely?

Deck chairs


----------



## Smangus (Sep 10, 2020)

Given some of the reaction from tory peers this has "Johnson Mega Fuck Up" written all over it. Be interesting tobsee what happens when the bill gets to the upper house.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 10, 2020)

Quality


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Tories can't back down now , it'll look like surrender... Can only mean no deal surely?


Not sure. It sort of mirrors the situation last year when there was no way they could accept any withdrawal agreement the EU would be likely to offer.

Depressing thing is you or I probably have a better chance of guessing where the government will go from here than anyone in the government.


----------



## rubbershoes (Sep 10, 2020)

Let's remember that  tory members would prefer NI and Scotland leaving the UK, and significant damage to the UK economy, than brexit not happening.  It is a sacred cow to them.  Brexit at whatever cost


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Let's remember that  tory members would prefer NI and Scotland leaving the UK, and significant damage to the UK economy, than brexit not happening.  It is a sacred cow to them.  Brexit at whatever cost


Sure, but it's easy for them to say that beforehand.


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2020)

According to the Daily Mail comments section this is going down very well with parts of the base who think Boris is standing up to Brussels.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Tories can't back down now , it'll look like surrender... Can only mean no deal surely?
> 
> Deck chairs


Titanic


----------



## brogdale (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Tories can't back down now , it'll look like surrender... Can only mean no deal surely?
> 
> Deck chairs


Feels like that, but you have to wonder to what extent this is Cummings attempting to compel the supra state to be seen to enforce what will be unpopular non-tariff barriers within & between nations of the UK Union. In other words, another (apparently) high stakes & very theatrical exercise in blame shifting, so that, when they cave, the vermin will blame others for what they signed up to.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> ERG have a new chair apparently. Things might change


Nope. It's that complete dickhead bernard Jenkin


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Tories can't back down now , it'll look like surrender... Can only mean no deal surely?
> 
> Deck chairs


If they don't, we face the utter ruin of the UK economy - and food shortages


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> What happens if Britain breaks international law then? EU sanctions? I doubt it. It will go down great with the Brexit faithful and makes the EU the bad guy when they have to stick a hard border in Ireland.


The Chinese get carte Blanche with Hong Kong, for a start. They just need to realign their internal markets “in a limited and specific way”.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> According to the Daily Mail comments section this is going down very well with parts of the base who think Boris is standing up to Brussels.



Surely they know that this support base will evaporate in a matter of hours as soon as the reality of new deal becomes apparent?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Feels like that, but you have to wonder to what extent this is Cummings attempting to compel the supra state to be seen to enforce what will be unpopular non-tariff barriers within & between nations of the UK Union. In other words, another (apparently) high stakes & very theatrical exercise in blame shifting, so that, when they cave, the vermin will blame others for what they signed up to.



that doesnt really work too well though when

1. the government have themselves said with some conviction they're really up for crashing out, and their disciples believe them
2. people like farage are today egging them on to do just that from the sidelines

- anything other than no deal now will look like capitulation - no matter how much they can try and blame it on the EU - the fact they've threatened to walk, backing down will from this bill will always be backing down - and thanks to this illegal bill, they'll be backing down off an even bigger ledge.
whatever, i hope they fall and break their necks.
unfortunately we're all tied to their ankles
....analogy ends....


----------



## maomao (Sep 10, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Surely they know that this support base will evaporate in a matter of hours as soon as the reality of new deal becomes apparent?



I think the EU imposing fines or sanctions would make Boris more popular with the out and out Brexit or die lot.


----------



## existentialist (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think the EU imposing fines or sanctions would make Boris more popular with the out and out Brexit or die lot.


But perhaps less popular with "oh, bless him, he's just a jolly good chap" lot, hopefully.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Surely they know that this support base will evaporate in a matter of hours as soon as the reality of new deal becomes apparent?



I'm not sure it will.  Even if it goes the full 'no deal' crash-out that is unlikely to cause all hell to break loose immediately.  There'll be disruption and shortages, but probably not on an unmanageable level, and I suspect some do really think they'll be able to bury part of it under Covid-related difficulties.  The rest can be blamed on EU intransigence/punishment/vengefulness, and a fair few of the 'base' are going to be quite happy to believe that, especially if sanctions, fines or whatever are involved.  Some will also continue to believe that more damage is being done to the EU than Britain, and cling to the hope that either it will come begging for a deal or just fall apart.  It might take a long time and a fair bit of economic pain and political unpleasantness before that changes.

It's a long way from 'sunlit uplands' and 'having cake and eating it.'


----------



## Raheem (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think the EU imposing fines or sanctions would make Boris more popular with the out and out Brexit or die lot.


If it's allowed to get to that stage, it might not be all that high on anyone's list of things to care about.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> There'll be disruption and shortages, but probably not on an unmanageable level


but looks who's in charge to manage it!
theyve got three and a half months to get everything in place, and theres the small matter of a pandemic to deal with too
im a bit of a doom-monger, i admit, but the odds on them dealing adequately with a crash out look slim to me


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> but looks who's in charge to manage it!
> theyve got three and a half months to get everything in place, and theres the small matter of a pandemic to deal with too
> im a bit of a doom-monger, i admit, but the odds on them dealing adequately with a crash out look slim to me


Don't panic!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Either that or Johnson’s telling lies again.



His lips were moving so it's clear he was.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> but looks who's in charge to manage it!
> theyve got three and a half months to get everything in place, and theres the small matter of a pandemic to deal with too
> im a bit of a doom-monger, i admit, but the odds on them dealing adequately with a crash out look slim to me



Oh I don't think they'll deal with it adequately!  It's a sign of their malevolent incompetence that it's now looking pretty likely as an outcome, and they'll fuck up managing it just as they've fucked up absolutely everything else.  But we've seen with Covid that people will forgive a surprising amount, and there are a lot of people out there who still believe 'Boris' is a jolly good chap and/or that 'proper' Brexit must happen at any price.  I can't see them turning on him.   Not yet.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Don't panic!


ive got a good stock of towels, i'll be fine


----------



## MrSki (Sep 10, 2020)

Not all tories are on side. Major & Howard might have more influence than Johnson would like.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Not all tories are on side. Major & Howard might have more influence than Johnson would like.




Tbf Major, and for that matter Theresa May, are easily written off as remainers, and a lot of the senior backbenchers who've come out against it - Gale, Neill - supported remain too.  Howard's more significant.  One wonders how many he's speaking for.  Perhaps quite a few, since this seems to point to quite a major rebellion:



Quite the constitutional crisis if it comes to it.

Brace, brace.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> that doesnt really work too well though when
> 
> 1. the government have themselves said with some conviction they're really up for crashing out, and their disciples believe them
> 2. people like farage are today egging them on to do just that from the sidelines
> ...


Yep, but I just don't think conventional assumptions regarding 'optics' work here & now. My gut reaction is that they will cave to a deal but have generated enough antagonistic shite from the blame sponge supra state to firmly establish their own 'creation myths' about Free Britain.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yep, but I just don't think conventional assumptions regarding 'optics' work here & now. My gut reaction is that they will cave to a deal but have generated enough antagonistic shite from the blame sponge supra state to firmly establish their own 'creation myths' about Free Britain.



add the word Shit after Bat


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think the EU imposing fines or sanctions would make Boris more popular with the out and out Brexit or die lot.


sure it will, but that's a minority of those who voted Leave, and those whose votes the Tories need next time round. No Deal means - with absolute  certainty - the disappearance, practically overnight of 44% of our export base and the colapse of the financial services sector.
Which in turn means the collapse of the British economy, plus food shortages.
Once that reality hits home, there's only so far brexiteer rhetoric and wrapping yourse3lves in the Union Jack will get them


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 10, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Tbf Major, and for that matter Theresa May, are easily written off as remainers, and a lot of the senior backbenchers who've come out against it - Gale, Neill - supported remain too.  Howard's more significant.  One wonders how many he's speaking for.  Perhaps quite a few, since this seems to point to quite a major rebellion:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Plus a major diplomatic crisis: Pelosi has made it clear that we have zero hopes of any future trade deal with the US if we trash the GFA, and there are already governments all around the world saying, in diplomatic terms 'what the fuck are you playing at?". We are actually breaching the BVienna Convention, to which we are a signatory.
I've been racking my brains ever since this blew up yesterday, and I simply can't recall any instance, in the past few decades, of a liberal democracy threatening to both trash a treaty and break international law.  
It's absolutely beyond mental.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 10, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Plus a major diplomatic crisis: Pelosi has made it clear that we have zero hopes of any future trade deal with the US if we trash the GFA, and there are already governments all around the world saying, in diplomatic terms 'what the fuck are you playing at?". We are actually breaching the BVienna Convention, to which we are a signatory.
> I've been racking my brains ever since this blew up yesterday, and I simply can't recall any instance, in the past few decades, of a liberal democracy threatening to both trash a treaty and break international law.
> It's absolutely beyond mental.



Oh aye, and also the government saying in effect that it doesn't regard itself as bound by the rule of law.

I hate the old cliche about boiled frogs, but we do seem to have become so inured to political lunacy over the last few years that it no longer feels all that shocking.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 10, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Either that or Johnson’s telling lies again.


No!! say it isn't so


----------



## Supine (Sep 10, 2020)

Is this going well for lexiteers? I genuinely haven't got a clue what they'd be thinking at this point.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 10, 2020)

Supine said:


> Is this going well for lexiteers? I genuinely haven't got a clue what they'd be thinking at this point.


This was the network being promoted somewhat on this thread some time ago...









						Leave - Fight - Transform
					

Follow My Blog Get new content delivered directly to your inbox.




					leftcampaign.org
				




seems to have gone quite after around February, although they seem to still exist on Twitter to some extent



			https://twitter.com/leftcampaign?lang=en


----------



## ska invita (Sep 10, 2020)

Supine said:


> Is this going well for lexiteers? I genuinely haven't got a clue what they'd be thinking at this point.


well quite a few posters wanted a no deal crash out according to the poll at the time, so I guess they're getting closer to satisfaction


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 11, 2020)

Those states/organisations that want to undermine the EU will see that the UK is OK in the event of a crisis, they need a ‘successful’ Brexit as an example to others and to stick it to the arrogant EU. The US (and not just the Republicans) doesn’t like EU protectionism such as food standards, or the attempt to regulate/tax big tech and other transnational business. Remember that it was big tech and wingnut capitalists that enabled all this in the first place. We’ll be the bridgehead in their war.  Hence Trump etc talking up having a deal ready to put in place very quickly, I’ve no doubt they intend to do this. They’ll also get a better deal if we have a little period of panic before lying down for them, and aren’t closely tied to EU rules.  I don’t see anything happening that goes against this plan.


----------



## mauvais (Sep 11, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Those states/organisations that want to undermine the EU will see that the UK is OK in the event of a crisis, they need a ‘successful’ Brexit as an example to others and to stick it to the arrogant EU. The US (and not just the Republicans) doesn’t like EU protectionism such as food standards, or the attempt to regulate/tax big tech and other transnational business.


Nobody but the UK needs a successful Brexit. Everyone except the UK and in many respects the EU benefits far more from overall disruption and chaos.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Nobody but the UK needs a successful Brexit.


There are rightwing nationalist protectionist movements across europe who want to see it be successful for their own political projects


----------



## Supine (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> There are rightwing nationalist protectionist movements across europe who want to see it be successful for their own political projects



Some bunches of nutters, not states though


----------



## mauvais (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> There are rightwing nationalist protectionist movements across europe who want to see it be successful for their own political projects


Small fry though and they still don't _need_ it. Even a miserable failure can be partly written off as uniquely British circumstances.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

Supine said:


> Some bunches of nutters, not states though


thats very dismissive of whats happening in Europe
Some bunch of nutters currently have an 80 seat majority in the UK parliament


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

UK strikes agreement with Japan to secure first post-Brexit trade deal
					

Government analysis found that a deal with Japan would boost the UK's GDP by around 0.07% over 15 years.




					news.sky.com
				






> an "important step" towards the UK joining a wider 11-nation trade deal, known as the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership.
> 
> boost trade with Japan by £15.2bn over the next 15 years
> 
> ...




It's a bit, well, shit, innit.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> UK strikes agreement with Japan to secure first post-Brexit trade deal
> 
> 
> Government analysis found that a deal with Japan would boost the UK's GDP by around 0.07% over 15 years.
> ...



from the FT:

_One of the biggest sticking points was so-called tariff rate quotas in agriculture, which let European farmers export a limited amount of sensitive foodstuffs to Japan at a lower tariff. Tokyo argued that it was up to London to argue with Brussels for a share of the existing quota and it could not offer more._

That sounds like it's going to be an interesting negotiation.

What will a lactose intolerant nation DO with all that Stilton anyway?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> What will a lactose intolerant nation DO with all that Stilton anyway?



Iirc the US of A has strongarmed Japan in recent years to buy endless vats of their mega farm milk... East Asia starting to consume more milk products as a result. 
Iirc


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

Prediction time!

1) The Bill can't pass parliament. It might not even pass the HoC. Johnson's authority is so weak he is promising that no-one will lose the whip, so effectively a free vote. So I think the Bill will be pulled next week, and even if not, it is not getting through.

2) There's probably no way of watering down the Bill so that it does pass. This might be possible if the Tories were desperate to hang on to Johnson, but they are not.

3) Johnson then has three options.

A. Make the EU a serious offer.
B. Ask the EU for a further extension.
C. Resign so that someone else can do A or B.

Allowing a crash-out will not be an option because, the Bill not having passed, Johnson faces going down in history as not only having devastated the country's economic base, but also having given away NI for no real reward.

4) Johnson will chose B. But the EU will decline. They may or may not be explicit about it, but this will be done to force Johnson's resignation.

5) Johnson will try to go for option A, but will find that everyone around him prefers option C.

6) We'll get another year of Brexit and RS will be an incredibly popular PM until about August.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 11, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> What will a lactose intolerant nation DO with all that Stilton anyway?



They will eat and enjoy it, because the Japanese are not unable to eat dairy products in moderate quantities.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

We will fight them on the beaches. We will persuade them to accept our cheese in moderate quantities. We will never surrender.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Prediction time!
> 
> 1) The Bill can't pass parliament. It might not even pass the HoC. Johnson's authority is so weak he is promising that no-one will lose the whip, so effectively a free vote. So I think the Bill will be pulled next week, and even if not, it is not getting through.
> 
> ...


That suggests this illegal bill is a fuck up that's back fired. My impression is it was planned from before the signing of the WA, as will be the next steps... To me that looks to be crashing out, but who knows


----------



## philosophical (Sep 11, 2020)

Another option might be to turn the UK into some kind of glorified Cayman Isles for his mates to get rich whilst the general population eats rats and acorns.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> That suggests this illegal bill is a fuck up that's back fired. My impression is it was planned from before the signing of the WA, as will be the next steps... To me that looks to be crashing out, but who knows


Who's to say it's not both planned and a fuck-up?

Think they thought they could predict what the EU would do, but their prediction was coloured by Brexiteer folklore about last-minute crisis resolution.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> They will eat and enjoy it, because the Japanese are not unable to eat dairy products in moderate quantities.



Wasn't wishing to question the infinite wisdom of urban but did wonder about this. Not claiming any expertise myself, but have  never heard this before during my time here. In fact, as someone who can't eat or drink from the cow, am constantly miffed to see so much dairy products (ice cream, yoghurt, milk, cheese) everywhere and not a great deal of alternatives. Soy milk and almond, yeah but that's it. Goat or sheep cheese, forget about it. Or be prepared to pay through the nose! Boo. Or, moo, even.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> from the FT:
> 
> _One of the biggest sticking points was so-called tariff rate quotas in agriculture, which let European farmers export a limited amount of sensitive foodstuffs to Japan at a lower tariff. Tokyo argued that it was up to London to argue with Brussels for a share of the existing quota and it could not offer more._
> 
> ...


Not much lactose in cheese. Virtually none in hard cheeses like cheddar. Safe for the vast majority of the lactose intolerant.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 11, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Wasn't wishing to question the infinite wisdom of urban but did wonder about this. Not claiming any expertise myself, but have  never heard this before during my time here. In fact, as someone who can't eat or drink from the cow, am constantly miffed to see so much dairy products (ice cream, yoghurt, milk, cheese) everywhere and not a great deal of alternatives. Soy milk and almond, yeah but that's it. Goat or sheep cheese, forget about it. Or be prepared to pay through the nose! Boo. Or, moo, even.


Very few people are entirely unable to eat any lactose. Those lacking the enzyme lactase, which is what lactose-intolerant normally means, can still pass smaller quantities of it through their bodies. Larger amounts give them the shits. So drinking a glass of plain milk is a bad idea, but eating cheese or yogurt is probably ok. Cheese, yogurt and butter all have lower levels of lactose, in some cases far lower levels. The processing breaks down the lactose into simpler sugars, doing the job that lactase does, basically.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 11, 2020)

This has always been about disruption anyway. I don’t think there is some cunning sub plot that will amaze and astound lurking around the corner. This has been a buzz theme in pig dog  capital for a while now.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Sep 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not much lactose in cheese. Virtually none in hard cheeses like cheddar. Safe for the vast majority of the lactose intolerant.


thank you


----------



## existentialist (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> UK strikes agreement with Japan to secure first post-Brexit trade deal
> 
> 
> Government analysis found that a deal with Japan would boost the UK's GDP by around 0.07% over 15 years.
> ...


It's not exactly oven-baked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

existentialist said:


> It's not exactly oven-baked.



More half baked.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Sep 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Prediction time!
> 
> 1) The Bill can't pass parliament. It might not even pass the HoC. Johnson's authority is so weak he is promising that no-one will lose the whip, so effectively a free vote. So I think the Bill will be pulled next week, and even if not, it is not getting through.
> 
> ...



An optimistic set of predictions if ever there was.  Ever since June 2016, when I predicted a narrow Remain victory followed by endless wrangling with brexiters, all my predictions have turned out worse and more chaotic than I thought.  My current prediction is:

1) The Bill will have a rough ride with lots of amendments, but something with a few cosmetic nods to international law will pass.  
2) The UKIP Tories are not yet weak enough to let Johnson go.  The might hang on to him until within a year of the next GE.
3) This won't happen because 1 and 2 won't happen
4) The EU will turn a blind eye to goings on in Ireland for as long as they can, then use the threat of sanctions against UK and getting the Irish to pursue the main companies in breach of any cross border trade.  
5) There will be mass unemployment, hunger and deprivation, because any deals with other nations will take a long time to sort out, given the bad faith caused by (1).  
6) The overwhelmed police will be supported by the army, a policy that will generally be accepted except in urban areas.  
7) The Red Wall/Sun/DM- reading electorate will either realise they've been had and take it out on the government with mass demonstrations, or blame the EU, the Irish etc. and take it out on anyone who looks a bit non-Anglo Saxon. I fear the latter.
8) The electoral system will be rigged and a minority Tory government under a new leader will be returned, given a working majority with support from a small number of proto-fascists/Faragist/EDL MPs in return for some seriously ugly policies (capital punishment, legalisation of racism etc)

I hope this will be my first prediction that is not overly optimistic


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Another option might be to turn the UK into some kind of glorified Cayman Isles for his mates to get rich whilst the general population eats rats and acorns.


I think that's is the actual plan they are working towards


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

Except they're going to buy up all the acorns.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 11, 2020)

Struwwelpeter said:


> An optimistic set of predictions if ever there was.  Ever since June 2016, when I predicted a narrow Remain victory followed by endless wrangling with brexiters, all my predictions have turned out worse and more chaotic than I thought.  My current prediction is:
> 
> 1) The Bill will have a rough ride with lots of amendments, but something with a few cosmetic nods to international law will pass.
> 2) The UKIP Tories are not yet weak enough to let Johnson go.  The might hang on to him until within a year of the next GE.
> ...


You haven’t mentioned Scotland or Northern Ireland.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Sep 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> You haven’t mentioned Scotland or Northern Ireland.


True.  I think that they won't get a say - I have no idea what the appetite for a fight would be, but the government will close any constitutional routes for separation. UDI in Scotland?  Resumption of the Troubles in NI?  I'd be interested to hear from anyone who has a better handle on those places.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2020)

Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.


I noticed that on the Guardian politics live blog. At the time of the Referendum, and for many years before, they practically colonised the place. Now? rare as rocking horse shit
e2a: edited to amend my multiquote fuck-up


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.


Maybe because Brexit is won and Remainers have packed it in too


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.


TBF, a lot of them have died by now, which would also explain it.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I noticed that on the Guardian politics live blog. At the time of the Referendum, and for many years before, they practically colonised the place. Now? rare as rocking horse shit



There are still plenty of them on Twitter, mainly nationalist lunatics.  The lexiters have gone quiet now though...


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 11, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> There are still plenty of them on Twitter, mainly nationalist lunatics.  The lexiters have gone quiet now though...


hmm...interesting on both counts!


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> hmm...interesting on both counts!



I'd have hoped most lexiters would have the sense to realise by now that they got it catastrophically wrong.

To be entirely honest - and since I've got onto the subject - 'lexit' is actually why I stopped posting in 2016.  Watching people I respect starting to argue positions I thought - rightly, as it turned out - were completely divorced from political reality was depressing.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 11, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I'd have hoped most lexiters would have the sense to realise by now that they got it catastrophically wrong.
> 
> To be entirely honest - and since I've got onto the subject - 'lexit' is actually why I stopped posting in 2016.  Watching people I respect starting to argue positions I thought - rightly, as it turned out - were completely divorced from political reality was depressing.


yeah, I know that feeling. Like watching people voting and arguing for a\ slo-mo trainwreck, with us all secure;y strapped in


----------



## existentialist (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> More half baked.


I'll set 'em up...


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> sure it will, but that's a minority of those who voted Leave, and those whose votes the Tories need next time round. No Deal means - with absolute  certainty - the disappearance, practically overnight of 44% of our export base and the colapse of the financial services sector.
> Which in turn means the collapse of the British economy, plus food shortages.
> Once that reality hits home, there's only so far brexiteer rhetoric and wrapping yourse3lves in the Union Jack will get them


And you'd want more than a union flag round you in the cold winter nights on the streets


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 11, 2020)

Embrace global warming, winter is never coming again. We will be dining on home grown papaya and bananas come January . No trade deals needed


----------



## TopCat (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.


Remainers got themselves even more rabid after the peoples vote fiasco. We have heard and reheard all your capitalist club supporting rants. Nothing new worth anything emerges.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers got themselves even more rabid after the peoples vote fiasco. We have heard and reheard all your capitalist club supporting rants. Nothing new worth anything emerges.


Wow. You still BELIEVE. 

I can see how the prospect of Brexit has got the flag-waving right wingers and nationalists all wet in their gussets, but I didn't realise Brexit was going to free us from capitalism too.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2020)

To the bitter end, I'll never really understand what motivated anyone on the left to get seriously engaged about the intra-capital disagreement about the form of neoliberalism that could accelerate their wealth accumulation fastest and most securely defend that already stashed away. I really couldn't care less whether or not our neoliberal state is a member of the neoliberal union or not.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> To the bitter end, I'll never really understand what motivated anyone on the left to get seriously engaged about the intra-capital disagreement about the form of neoliberalism that could accelerate their wealth accumulation fastest and most securely defend that already stashed away. I really couldn't care less whether or not our neoliberal state is a member of the neoliberal union or not.



That was and is roughly my attitude too, coupled with the fact that I thought lexit was vanishingly unlikely to materialise and voting to leave therefore looked like a massive risk for very uncertain and distant rewards.


----------



## gosub (Sep 11, 2020)

Have the Japanese set any limits on the amount of whale sushi we can sell them?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> To the bitter end, I'll never really understand what motivated anyone on the left to get seriously engaged about the intra-capital disagreement about the form of neoliberalism that could accelerate their wealth accumulation fastest and most securely defend that already stashed away. I really couldn't care less whether or not our neoliberal state is a member of the neoliberal union or not.


the (anti)democratic argument is pretty clear to understand


----------



## brogdale (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the (anti)democratic argument is pretty clear to understand


Possibly so, but I'd take some convincing that a nationalist 'selection' of neoliberal outcomes differs significantly from a supranational 'selection' of neoliberal outcomes.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the (anti)democratic argument is pretty clear to understand



Clear, but I don't find it convincing for exactly the reason Brogdale gives.  Plus, there's a democratic deficit in the EU but so is there in the UK, and it's becoming worse as successive governments since 2016 have tried harder and harder to evade all the usual forms of scrutiny and check.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the (anti)democratic argument is pretty clear to understand


On the contrary, there was and is little democracy in the EU, the UK, or most places in the world. Parliamentary elections and referendums are both mechanisms for us all to surrender our sovereignty to an elite few.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Wow. You still BELIEVE.
> 
> I can see how the prospect of Brexit...



Brexit happened more than seven months ago, do try to keep up.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Brexit happened more than seven months ago, do try to keep up.


It only happened in theory. The awful reality is yet to come.


----------



## editor (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Brexit happened more than seven months ago, do try to keep up.


I think it's like one of those big bombs that go off the distance. You see the flash but then it takes ages to actually feel it. And then you wonder if you imagined it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:


> I think it's like one of those big bombs that go off the distance. You see the flash but then it takes ages to actually feel it. And then you wonder if you imagined it.



Your analogy works better if you use the word fallout, cos that’s what we’re seeing now.


----------



## Supine (Sep 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Your analogy works better if you use the word fallout, cos that’s what we’re seeing now.



Nah, the fuse is still lit. The fallout starts in January.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

Supine said:


> Nah, the fuse is still lit. The fallout starts in January.



The bomb went off. The Tories are once again tearing themselves to bits, they did it before but Labour’s Tories decided that would be a good time to attack their own party. Now they have a Tory in charge who is capable of sticking it to them, but he will fail cos he’s basically a Tory, plus he can’t be interviewed on breakfast TV cos he and Charlie Stayt share the same lump of hair.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 11, 2020)

Nah I prefer Supine's take. The cannon is loaded, the fuse is fizzling and the clowns are all bumping into each other, looking down the barrel, burning their fingers on the fuse etc.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 11, 2020)

Crispy said:


> Nah I prefer Supine's take. The cannon is loaded, the fuse is fizzling and the clowns are all bumping into each other, looking down the barrel, burning their fingers on the fuse etc.



Remainer, etc


----------



## Raheem (Sep 11, 2020)

I think of it as more like we've done the fart but we're still holding in the poo behind it.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 11, 2020)

On the plus side, Brexit is speeding up the idea of a unified Ireland and Scottish independence becoming a reality. We live in glorious times.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 11, 2020)

editor said:
			
		

> I can see how the prospect of Brexit has got the flag-waving right wingers and nationalists all wet in their gussets, but I didn't realise Brexit was going to free us from capitalism too.



Free us from capitalism and deliver us to the sunlit uplands of warlordism.


----------



## Supine (Sep 11, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Free us from capitalism and deliver us to the sunlit uplands of warlordism.



That isn't a quote of mine. What kind of a cnuts move is false quoting me?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 11, 2020)

Supine said:


> That isn't a quote of mine. What kind of a cnuts move is false quoting me?



No idea how that happened, apologies.

E2a: rectified now.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 11, 2020)

Very entertaining thread


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And you'd want more than a union flag round you in the cold winter nights on the streets


tbh, I think loads of people will be having some very cold winter nights on the streets. This is going to turn very, _very_ ugly indeed


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 11, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> On the plus side, Brexit is speeding up the idea of a unified Ireland and Scottish independence becoming a reality. We live in glorious times.


That will certainly happen. Ten years, _maximum._


----------



## existentialist (Sep 11, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Very entertaining thread


There are those who are easily pleased. Customarily, we term them "fools".

HTH. HAND.


----------



## MrSpikey (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Since the agreement to set the border in the Irish Sea has there been any attempt by Westminster to create the infrastructure and bureaucracy necessary for new years day? I don't know but I doubt it. Seems to me this isn't a bluff, it was always the plan. I have memories of Johnson saying in full contradiction at the time of signing the WA that there won't be a border regime, and papers running truth check articles saying yes there will. They were wrong I expect.



Ditching the treaty was apparently always part of the plan:



> ERG member Bernard Jenkin said he only voted for the WA because the prime minister claimed he would ditch it if no deal was reached by the end of the Brexit transition period.
> 
> Writing in the _Diplomat_ magazine, Jenkin said: “We only have a WA because Eurosceptic Conservatives, such as myself, voted for it to help the nation out of a paralysing political crisis. To his credit, the prime minister had ameliorated Mrs May’s agreement.”
> 
> “We made clear, however, that this agreement was barely ‘tolerable’ and only voted for it against assurances given by government: that it was just a starting point for negotiations; that it would be superseded by a full FTA [free trade agreement]; and, if needs be, could be repudiated.”


----------



## MrSpikey (Sep 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> But herr is heard hair here.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

It seems clear from all the noises from Johnsons faithful that they really believe they are playing hardball here to get the EU to "give them what they want". All I can see is flying in the face of border facts and a looming crash out.
They've been convinced from the off that the EU needs the UK more than/as much as the UK needs the EU...this plus generations of inbred arrogance is the only explanation I can find for what they're doing. The need for illegality in this Internal Market Bill is the bit where they buck up on the hard reality of the new post-brexit borders - their solution is more paradoxical cake and eat nonsense from what i can see.

they dont want a border between the north and ireland, and they dont want one in the irish sea.
theyve agreed to no border between the north and ireland in the WA, and now they hope to magic away the one in the irish sea through obstinance
may be proved wrong but i cant see any theoretical way through this other than a crash out


----------



## two sheds (Sep 12, 2020)

How's a border in the Irish Sea going to be policed? It's in GB/NI's interest to just let traffic flow. EU gunboats on patrol?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

MrSpikey said:


> Ditching the treaty was apparently always part of the plan:


just saw this:

"On his blog in March 2019, when May was in power, Cummings addressed “dear Vote Leave activists”: “don’t worry about the so-called ‘permanent’ commitments this historically abysmal Cabinet are trying to make on our behalf. They are not ‘permanent’ and a serious government — one not cowed by officials and their bullshit ‘legal advice’ with which they have herded ministers like sheep — will dispense with these commitments.”

In May, Steve Baker, former chair of the European Research Group, wrote in The Critic that Cummings “said we should vote for the original withdrawal agreement without reading it, on the basis Michael Gove articulated: we could change it later”. This had indeed been Gove’s line since December 2017: “If the British people dislike the agreement that we have negotiated with the EU, the agreement will allow a future government to diverge.”

This idea that Britain could sign the withdrawal agreement with its fingers crossed behind its back and then just ignore it later on is, in a way, perfectly consistent with the larger mentality of Brexit. At the heart of its theology is the fantasy that there is such a thing as absolute national sovereignty, a complete unilateral freedom of action that had been taken away by EU membership. Once Britain is “unchained” from the EU, Britain can do whatever it damn well pleases. The withdrawal treaty is not a set of permanent obligations, merely a route towards the obligation-free future that starts on 1 January 2021."









						Boris Johnson's 'oven-ready' Brexit had a secret footnote: we'll rehash it later | Fintan O'Toole
					

Suggesting Britain could sign the withdrawal agreement with its fingers crossed makes perfect sense for a government of liars, says Irish Times columnist Fintan O’Toole




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Winot (Sep 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


> How's a border in the Irish Sea going to be policed? It's in GB/NI's interest to just let traffic flow. EU gunboats on patrol?



It seems to me that the practicalities are less important than the principle. It seems that Johnson agreed the WA in bad faith. The EU are correct to require that he row back from breaking the WA. If he fails to do so then how can they trust him again?


----------



## TopCat (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Wow. You still BELIEVE.
> 
> I can see how the prospect of Brexit has got the flag-waving right wingers and nationalists all wet in their gussets, but I didn't realise Brexit was going to free us from capitalism too.
> 
> View attachment 229956


You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.



Correct, Corbyn would be residing at No.10 if Labour had embraced Brexit.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Correct, Corbyn would be residing at No.10 if Labour has embraced Brexit.


You're wrong, but please lets no pick over the rubble yet again here


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.


There was no such thing as a straightforward, simple ‘vote’. There was a referendum with a question which meant different  things to different people, with no plan as to what to do next. That was and is the problem. When Tories ask a question they aren’t waiting for an answer, because they already know what they want the answer to be. 
We got lumbered with this effing government in large part because the Labour right wing preferred to lose rather than win with Corbyn at the helm.
A pro Brexit vote was always going to end up with a Tory Brexit


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Have you noticed how all the pro-Brexit people seem to be getting progressively quieter? Perhaps even they're realising that it's a Class A Clusterfuck.



What I don't understand is that the economy is collapsing amidst a global pandemic, nobody knows what the fuck is going to be happening from one week to the next, and the government is still steaming ahead with this ridiculous Brexit shit. 

Stay in the EU, leave the EU, leave the EU and rejoin it in 10 years, whatever, history will record it as a trivial trade dispute between wealthy neighbours - there should be overwhelming public support for hitting the pause button for a year or two until things get to somewhere approaching normal.


----------



## Struwwelpeter (Sep 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.


Whatever but we are here now. Leavers need to own up to their actions rather than blaming everyone else. What do you think should happen now?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Winot said:


> It seems to me that the practicalities are less important than the principle. It seems that Johnson agreed the WA in bad faith. The EU are correct to require that he row back from breaking the WA. If he fails to do so then how can they trust him again?


i find the language about faith and trust misleading, as if its some kind of personal slight, that has to be corrected to maintain honour, mafia style
from my understanding this is still the old "wheres the irish border going to be" question
they agreed it would be in the sea, and now they're saying Ha, not really
so where will it be then?


----------



## Winot (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i find the language about faith and trust misleading, as if its some kind of personal slight, that has to be corrected to maintain honour, mafia style
> from my understanding this is still the old "wheres the irish border going to be" question
> they agreed it would be in the sea, and now they're saying Ha, not really
> so where will it be then?



Also true. The fact is there is not and never was an Irish border solution that keeps all parties happy.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> What I don't understand is that the economy is collapsing amidst a global pandemic, nobody knows what the fuck is going to be happening from one week to the next, and *the government is still steaming ahead with this ridiculous Brexit shit*.



Just forget about the whole shebang?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Winot said:


> Also true. The fact is there is not and never was an Irish border solution that keeps all parties happy.


The Irish Sea option seemed like the best outcome. May couldn't have it because of the DUP holding the balance of power. Johnson won't have it because he wants to eat his cake and have it.
Seems to me this step moves the border back to the old N Ireland/Ireland one... and dares anyone to impose it. I remember Johnson saying all along, before becoming PM, it doesn't matter because the UK won't impose it - if so then the onus falls on Ireland and the EU to do so, which they won't in the name of the peace process.
An anomaly only reunification would resolve. Or maybe some future technological fix, years down the line.
??
Unless there's a major plot twist I can't see what else could happen.


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Just forget about the whole shebang?



In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button"  - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.


The people in charge now were the people who were in charge of the leave campaign. This is what that enabled.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The people in charge now were the people who were in charge of the leave campaign. This is what that enabled.


A tory led remain was your favoured option. Let's be clear on that.

This is your mess. You demanded that brexit have more importance than winning the election and imposed a policy that led to both a hard brexit and losing the election. Genius stuff. and you talk about enabling? Take some responsibility instead of bleating _tory-led tory-led._


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their _you're all racists_ nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against  these people? None but mutiny.  Oh yeah, or a studied _i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything *ghastly*)._


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> tbh, I think loads of people will be having some very cold winter nights on the streets. This is going to turn very, _very_ ugly indeed


Sleeping out in the open with but a flag to protect you cold indeed


----------



## brogdale (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their _you're all racists_ nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against  these people? None but mutiny.  Oh yeah, or a studied _i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything *ghastly*)._


Declining the opportunity to engage with or legitimate a vote between 2 _ghastly _racist, murdering alternative visions of neoliberalism has always seemed to me a valid position, studied or not. Nothing that has passed since 2016 has changed my view on that.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

Declining to get involved in politics. Great. Sleater didn't and look what happened.

My point is that this was always a pro-eu declining. More form than content. Zero engagement beyond pious hand-washing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> That will certainly happen. Ten years, _maximum._


Boris Alexander Johnson, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term for these offences: you will go to prison for ten years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Declining the opportunity to engage with or legitimate a vote between 2 _ghastly _racist, murdering alternative visions of neoliberalism has always seemed to me a valid position, studied or not. Nothing that has passed since 2016 has changed my view on that.


British neoliberalism for little brits


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button"  - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.


no need to pause something thats going to plan
in fact covid provides some handy cover for economic fallout


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button"  - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.


Now let's hit the flush


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Boris Alexander Johnson, you have pleaded guilty to the charges brought by this court and it is now my duty to pass sentence. You are an habitual criminal who accepts arrest as an occupational hazard and presumably accepts imprisonment in the same casual manner. We therefore feel constrained to commit you to the maximum term for these offences: you will go to prison for ten years.


However, as law-breaking is now legal you are free to go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> However, as law-breaking is now legal you are free to go


to South Georgia to join the project for penguin conservation


----------



## brogdale (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Declining to get involved in politics. Great. Sleater didn't and look what happened.
> 
> My point is that this was always a pro-eu declining. More form than content. Zero engagement beyond pious hand-washing.


Yep, hands up on that one; from the Tory adoption of an in/out referendum as a means to lance their own intra-party factional division, I've consistently not found the will to engage one way or the other. All of my previous political involvement has been predicated on a belief that some positive change might result; without that belief, I was never going to favour or advocate for one of the neoliberal positions offered to the electorate.

That said, I'm not consciously striving to wash my hands of it, but if my take comes across like that, I suppose that's one risk of the minority position of non-engagement on the Brexit issue.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yep, hands up on that one; from the Tory adoption of an in/out referendum as a means to lance their own intra-party factional division, I've consistently not found the will to engage one way or the other. All of my previous political involvement has been predicated on a belief that some positive change might result; without that belief, I was never going to favour or advocate for one of the neoliberal positions offered to the electorate.
> 
> That said, I'm not consciously striving to wash my hands of it, but if my take comes across like that, I suppose that's one risk of the minority position of non-engagement on the Brexit issue.


Is it really non-engagement when one position is consistently branded as being nose-led by false consciousness?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> People like sleater and their media catspaws crowded out the merest hint of any other debate about the EU opening up with their _you're all racists_ nonsense. Turning a blind eye whilst their eu extends it's racist murder operation further into eurasia and africa. Why chance do we have against  these people? None but mutiny.  Oh yeah, or a studied _i'm against both really (but i couldn't do anything *ghastly*)._



Why don't you just skip ahead to telling us all what the correct answer was?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> A tory led remain was your favoured option. Let's be clear on that.
> 
> This is your mess. You demanded that brexit have more importance than winning the election and imposed a policy that led to both a hard brexit and losing the election. Genius stuff. and you talk about enabling? Take some responsibility instead of bleating _tory-led tory-led._


Let’s be clear, it was my favoured option over a Tory brexit which is what we have now. This is the mess of whoever voted for it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Is it really non-engagement when one position is consistently branded as being nose-led by false consciousness?


Can't say, tbh, but then I've always believed and argued that working class voters encouraged to vote for either version of neoliberal superstructural arrangement were doing so against their own interests.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Let’s be clear, it was my favoured option over a Tory brexit which is what we have now. This is the mess of whoever voted for it.


Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated _tory-led brexit_ is redundant. You would oppose _any brexit at all_ - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now  the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism.  But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Can't say, tbh, but then I've always believed and argued that working class voters encouraged to vote for either version of neoliberal superstructural arrangement were doing so against their own interests.


You wouldn't support a strike that didn't end in immediate full libertarian communism? You wouldn't have a position?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> You wouldn't support a strike that didn't end in immediate full libertarian communism? You wouldn't have a position?


No, i just have never believed that really existing Brexit offered the class any chance of incremental advance, let alone a radical one.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated _tory-led brexit_ is redundant. You would oppose _any brexit at all_ - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now  the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism.  But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.


I would oppose any brexit at all, and if anything the shitshow since the vote has hardened that view. And worse is to come. 

A Labour left brexit or indeed a Labour left led anything was never on the cards.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No, i just have never believed that really existing Brexit offered the class any chance of incremental advance, let alone a radical one.


But if you thought that it did then you'd be all in right? But you couldn't be because you don't take part in what you call bosses fights.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 12, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I would oppose any brexit at all, and if anything the shitshow since the vote has hardened that view. And worse is to come.
> 
> A Labour left brexit or indeed a Labour left led anything was never on the cards.


Irrelevant in highlighting your cheap_ tory-led _content-free rhetorical attempt.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> But if you thought that it did then you'd be all in right? But you couldn't be because you don't take part in what you call bosses fights.


I suppose so. If I'd have accepted, for want of a better descriptor, the Lexit position, I guess I'd have engaged.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 12, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> In the very next paragraph, I suggested "hitting the pause button"  - but instead you chose to highlight a few words and misrepresent my position, because you're a dishonest, trolling, alt-right sack of shit.



Who on earth do you think you are fooling?





Yossarian said:


> Stay in the EU, leave the EU, leave the EU and rejoin it in 10 years, whatever, history will record it as a trivial trade dispute between wealthy neighbours - *there should be overwhelming public support for hitting the pause button for a year or two *until things get to somewhere approaching normal.



Your next paragraph is almost as hilarious as your first.

So you deludedly think the public would be happy for further extension of some unknown time span?

And how would this be achieved?  Another referendum?

You are one of the many reasons people voted the Tories into power with a massive majority.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who on earth do you think you are fooling?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who on earth do you think you are fooling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Who do you think you're kidding mr hitler


----------



## gosub (Sep 12, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> What I don't understand is that the economy is collapsing amidst a global pandemic, nobody knows what the fuck is going to be happening from one week to the next, and the government is still steaming ahead with this ridiculous Brexit shit.
> 
> Stay in the EU, leave the EU, leave the EU and rejoin it in 10 years, whatever, history will record it as a trivial trade dispute between wealthy neighbours - there should be overwhelming public support for hitting the pause button for a year or two until things get to somewhere approaching normal.



You think the EU's economic response to the pandemic warrants having anything do with it?  It gave Hungary more emergency funding than it did Italy, it capped pooled debt response at 0.7% of GDP and while it is letting states temporarily their businesses, its doing so in manner that moving forward exposes a significant number of countries to vulture capitalism.


----------



## gosub (Sep 12, 2020)

In real politik terms, direction of the world is very much impacted by which American takes oath on 20/1/21.  EU  can if it wants, spend the time prior to that bullshitting that UK standards have eroded from EUropean ones (their choice), potentially though that has a GLOBAL impact on the drive for Covid herd immunity.


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You lost the vote. A willingness to compromise from the remainers might well have avoided this tory govt.


You mean the non-binding vote that was campaigned on a platform of outright lies?

Or do the you think the small majority of favourinf Brexit were actually desperate to become part of this ongoing fucking catastrophe that has made the UK a laughing stock across the world? Is this what you wanted?

And I'm really not sure why you think people 'compromising' on this shitshow would have stopped a Tory government getting in either. It was their fucking idea in the first place. What kind of compromises were you looking for?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> You mean the non-binding vote that was campaigned on a platform of outright lies?
> 
> Or do the you think the small majority of favourinf Brexit were actually desperate to become part of this ongoing fucking catastrophe that has made the UK a laughing stock across the world? Is this what you wanted?
> 
> And I'm really not sure why you think people 'compromising' on this shitshow would have stopped a Tory government getting in either. It was their fucking idea in the first place. What kind of compromises were you looking for?


Why do you care if the UK is a laughing stock across the world?


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Why do you care if the UK is a laughing stock across the world?


Well it gets a bit much when my international friends keep going on about it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Well it gets a bit much when my international friends keep going on about it.


Because...


----------



## existentialist (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Why do you care if the UK is a laughing stock across the world?


My French friends and acquaintances have been very kind about the whole business. Pointedly kind, in the sort of way you'd imagine people might be if your uncle had got his name in the papers for being caught fondling squirrels in a public park


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Because...


Can't be arsed with wherever it is you're going with this, sorry.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 12, 2020)

The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Can't be arsed with wherever it is you're going with this, sorry.


I want to know why you care if the UK is a laughing stock round the world. I thought it might be because eg the UK's actions on the international stage have repercussions as many other countries see the UK as setting an example. So the breaking of international law would weaken other countries' adherence to what were international norms. I didn't expect it would apparently be solely because your foreign friends won't let it lie


----------



## editor (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I want to know why you care if the UK is a laughing stock round the world. I thought it might be because eg the UK's actions on the international stage have repercussions as many other countries see the UK as setting an example. So the breaking of international law would weaken other countries' adherence to what were international norms. I didn't expect it would apparently be solely because your foreign friends won't let it lie


Read post #800 and kindly stop being so pushy and annoying.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 12, 2020)

existentialist said:


> My French friends and acquaintances have been very kind about the whole business. Pointedly kind, in the sort of way you'd imagine people might be if your uncle had got his name in the papers for being caught fondling squirrels in a public park


Much like all the Americans I know personally act embarrassed and quickly change the subject when anyone mentions Trump


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

editor said:


> Read post #800 and kindly stop being so pushy and annoying.


kindly stop posting views you refuse to defend


----------



## 2hats (Sep 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.


Former United Kingdom according to the FT...


----------



## existentialist (Sep 12, 2020)

2hats said:


> Former United Kingdom according to the FT...
> View attachment 230036


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

A list of non-'embarrassing' states wouldn't be very long



Kevbad the Bad said:


> The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.


this could potentially be one of the big positives of Brexit - the breakup of the union is sure to be a massive crack in the monolith of the english establishment. youd think it would be a prioirty to avoid it for the tories - seemingly not

not sure the truth of it but


would explain a lot


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> A list of non-'embarrassing' states wouldn't be very long
> 
> 
> this could potentially be one of the big positives of Brexit - the breakup of the union is sure to be a massive crack in the monolith of the english establishment. youd think it would be a prioirty to avoid it for the tories - seemingly not
> ...




Absolute cunt. Then again, is there any other kind of Tory?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> not sure the truth of it but


Mmmnnn. Truth. Cummings. Mmmnn.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Sep 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.


The mother of all K-holes...


----------



## Smangus (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Who on earth do you think you are fooling?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Don't tell him Pike!


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 12, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated _tory-led brexit_ is redundant. You would oppose _any brexit at all_ - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now  the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism.  But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.



You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?


----------



## maomao (Sep 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> You are one of the many reasons people voted the Tories into power with a massive majority.


Everyone's responsible for you being a prick except you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?


Apart from the two opportunities to vote them out since 23/6/16


----------



## ska invita (Sep 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Apart from the two opportunities to vote them out since 23/6/16


i did but the tory brexit party still won


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i did but the tory brexit party still won


as opposed to the labour brexit party I imagine


----------



## Raheem (Sep 12, 2020)

Johnson's defence in today's Telegraph seems to boil down to "I took an enormous gamble, I badly miscalculated and it's going to lead to a historic fuck-up, so now I need to be allowed to take an enormous gamble."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 13, 2020)

classic doubling down mindset. well documented stuff really. The shitty thing is that fuck ups for this approach merely boost self esteem and likely lead to more fuck ups as egotistical shitbags like johnson have more appetite for wielding of their power. It rarely ends well for anyone outside the inner circle tugfest. yeh but corbyn obvs


----------



## MrSpikey (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The UK won’t be a laughing stock for long. After Scotland and Northern Ireland leave we’ll just be known as K.


Given the current source of Tory policy and their desire to radically remake society to match their own ideology, presumably the plan is that K will stand for King Dom?


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 13, 2020)

The Untied King Dom.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> You're aware 'tory led' was the only brexit on the menu I assume?


If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.


butchersapron said:


> Let's be even clearer then - the tory-led part of your oft repeated _tory-led brexit_ is redundant. You would oppose _any brexit at all_ - and i would guess, especially a labour-left led one given your fantasist hyperbole over the last 4 years about trots and reds under the bed. Which is what led you and people like you to force an election losing strategy based on that position on that labour-left as only brexit matters and to a situation where the hardest brexit possible is now  the most likely outcome whilst crowding out any voices looking for an other form of brexit via shrill liberal priestly denunciation covering yourself in the eu flag of anti-racism.  But, nothing to do with you. In fact, everyone else is guilty.


If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
> If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.


It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
> If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.


Oooohh look at you calling names!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse


Not to mention the “disruption” and shock that Cummings favours. Plenty of downsides in standing with them.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
> If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU argue for it on the basis of socialism/anarchism, and make sure that as part of that argument you are fighting against liberal wankers like sleater.


Why? You're right that there is no possibility of achieving the socialist state you want inside the EU but there isn't outside it either so why does it factor into the argument?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If it was it was because of what BA outlines below.
> If you are going to argue for the UK to remain in the EU...



I'm not going to do that. But there's a long way between arguing to remain in the EU (and what would be the point of that at this stage anyway, whatever line of argument was used) and relentlessly browbeating who didn't support an imaginary leftist version of brexit.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> It’s more a case, surely, of not wanting to exit the EU under right wing Tory terms. That was and is all that Is on offer. The EU is crap in so many ways, but a Tory nationalistic xenophobic Brexit is so much worse





MickiQ said:


> Why? You're right that there is no possibility of achieving the socialist state you want inside the EU but there isn't outside it either so why does it factor into the argument?


Why should socialists/anarchist base their political actions on socialism/anarchist? I would have thought that was pretty obvious.

No one mentioned "achieving the socialist state", I talked about starting from a _basis of socialism, _i.e. class conflict. Now if you want to write out that class conflict out of the equation do so, but then admit you are signing up for liberalism.


SpookyFrank said:


> I'm not going to do that. But there's a long way between arguing to remain in the EU (and what would be the point of that at this stage anyway, whatever line of argument was used) and relentlessly browbeating who didn't support an imaginary leftist version of brexit.


Liberalism is the force you, if you're an (class-struggle) anarchist, is going to be fighting against. And it's more important than ever that socialists, communists and anarchists attack that ideology. The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 13, 2020)

Johnson in yesterday's torygraph. I took the trouble of reading it. It appears to be dishonest  vacuous drivel with a generous helping of smoke and mirrors:









						Prime Minister's article in the Telegraph: 12 September 2020
					

Prime Minister Boris Johnson's piece in the Telegraph.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.



True, but as Streeck made clear in his 2013 conclusion to _Buying Time, _for those that regard the neoliberal consolidator state, rather than resurgent nationalism, as the greater threat to working class interests, the independent nation state might best serve the purpose of resistance. Of course, as we saw with the 'Lexit' project, that ironically caused certain 'socialists' to align with 'nationalist' (neoliberal) interests in what may now appear to be a harmful and stupid manner.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Why should socialists/anarchist base their political actions on socialism/anarchist? I would have thought that was pretty obvious.
> 
> No one mentioned "achieving the socialist state", I talked about starting from a _basis of socialism, _i.e. class conflict. Now if you want to write out that class conflict out of the equation do so, but then admit you are signing up for liberalism.
> Liberalism is the force you, if you're an (class-struggle) anarchist, is going to be fighting against. And it's more important than ever that socialists, communists and anarchists attack that ideology. The willingness of certain 'socialists' to align with liberals was always harmful and stupid but the incoherence of that position was somewhat hidden in the 90s/00s. That's no longer the case, now with the challenge of populisms to liberalism the political conflict between socialism and liberalism is sharper and you will have to come down on a side.


There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well. 
As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.


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## MickiQ (Sep 13, 2020)

Does class conflict not exist in the EU then? If anything the general populace of Europe are far more active in this regard than we Brits


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## Ax^ (Sep 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Johnson in yesterday's torygraph. I took the trouble of reading it. It appears to be dishonest  vacuous drivel with a generous helping of smoke and mirrors:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so the same sort of shit that always comes out when he opens his mouth


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## Artaxerxes (Sep 13, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Does class conflict not exist in the EU then? If anything the general populace of Europe are far more active in this regard than we Brits



The UK has a very odd relationship to both class and authority and I'm convinced it's because we never managed to get a full revolution going. The descendants of the same people in charge a few hundred years ago are still in charge today.

Compare that to the rest of Europe where things have been rather more fluid the last century.


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well.
> As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.


Anarchism 2020 - demanding the impossible, daring to dream, building from ruins etc


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The UK has a very odd relationship to both class and authority and I'm convinced it's because we never managed to get a full revolution going. The descendants of the same people in charge a few hundred years ago are still in charge today.
> 
> Compare that to the rest of Europe where things have been rather more fluid the last century.


Ok, that revolution where we killed the king. Exactly what all these other countries didn't do. The one that had fascist and authoritarian dictatorships. Lovely fluid. And as if the global system is due to personal deference and individual caprice.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Anarchism 2020 - demanding the impossible, daring to dream, building from ruins etc


Anarchism 2020? Long live Tory neo-liberal Brexit?


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Anarchism 2020? Long live Tory neo-liberal Brexit?


Uh-huh. Oh yes.


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## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> There are times when the immediate concerns take precedence. Take the Iraq war. There were all kinds of reasons why different people were against it, but there was a need to make alliances with others to achieve the goal, unsuccessful as it happens. I wasn’t signing up for pacifism, or Islam, or veganism, or Christianity, or Maoism, or the Liberal Democrat’s just because they were on the march as well.


There's working with social democrat, liberal or even conservative groups within a limited campaign and there is aligned yourself with such people


Kevbad the Bad said:


> As for Brexit, if Trump wins, or stages a coup, and the Johnson gang are still in power we could end up going down a very dark road. I’d rather have stuck with the EU ta very much, for all its very many and serious faults.


Fine but then you are signing up for liberalism.


brogdale said:


> True, but as Streeck made clear in his 2013 conclusion to _Buying Time, _for those that regard the neoliberal consolidator state, rather than resurgent nationalism, as the greater threat to working class interests, the independent nation state might best serve the purpose of resistance.
> Of course, as we saw with the 'Lexit' project, that ironically caused certain 'socialists' to align with 'nationalist' (neoliberal) interests in what may now appear to be a harmful and stupid manner.


Which socialists aligned with nationalist (I presume you national populist) interests? The RCG and Galloway? OK but those wankers left socialist politics behind them a long time ago. The majority of socialists that argued against the EU did so based on socialism, on class conflict.

It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism. If one is so scared of the latter that you flee into the arms of the former ok but then be honest about what your politics now are.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Fine but then you are signing up for liberalism.


I’m not signing up for anything. I’m sure most German socialists in the 1930’s would have rather lived under the Weimar Republic than under the Nazis. Most sensible people from most political persuasions would rather live in a liberal democracy than under left or right wing dictatorships. That’s just being realistic.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Which socialists aligned with nationalist (I presume you national populist) interests? The RCG and Galloway? OK but those wankers left socialist politics behind them a long time ago. The majority of socialists that argued against the EU did so based on socialism, on class conflict.
> 
> It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism. If one is so scared of the latter that you flee into the arms of the former ok but then be honest about what your politics now are.



Arguably any 'Lexit' supporter was aligning themselves with the interests of the 'nationalist/populists' intent on promoting their own free-trade fundamentalist position. Obviously they were doing so with the Streeck-like objective of effecting _that stumbling block to the descent into the single market state devoid of democracy, _but whether it's comfortable or not, alignment with the desired outcome of the Tory factional project, there was.

I may be wrong, but it always seemed to me that the 'Lexit' project was reactionary (in the literal sense) to the Tory instigated referendum gambit and that before Cameron's 2013 announcement, withdrawal from the supra state had been a largely dormant/niche interest on the left.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I’m not signing up for anything. I’m sure most German socialists in the 1930’s would have rather lived under the Weimar Republic than under the Nazis. Most sensible people from most political persuasions would rather live in a liberal democracy than under left or right wing dictatorships. That’s just being realistic.


If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than political actions that advance the class conflict then you are siding with liberalism. Being a socialist is not about what sort of ideal you want but the actions you are taking at the current time. 

Germany is actually an excellent example - your position implies that German communists should have stopped any class conflict and thrown their support behind the Weimar Republic that was killing them.


brogdale said:


> Arguably any 'Lexit' supporter was aligning themselves with the interests of the 'nationalist/populists' intent on promoting their own free-trade fundamentalist position.


Any any 'remain' supporter was aligning themselves with liberal technocracy? The only 'correct' position was to stand above it all?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Germany is actually an excellent example - your position implies that German communists should have stopped any class conflict and thrown their support behind the Weimar Republic that was killing them.


The German communist party in the 1930’s was a foreign arm of the Soviet government, no more, no less. Without any doubt life was better under the Weimar Republic than it would have been, and was, under the Nazis.
I know it’s an unfair comparison with Brexit, but I’m just making the point that sometimes it’s better to have the devil you know, if only for a little while.


----------



## maomao (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> It is pretty simple neither liberal technocracy nor national populism but socialism.


How's that going for you?

I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. It's not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?


----------



## ska invita (Sep 13, 2020)

I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than *political actions that advance the class conflict* then you are siding with liberalism.


What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people. But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism. I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> The German communist party in the 1930’s was a foreign arm of the Soviet government, no more, no less. Without any doubt life was better under the Weimar Republic than it would have been, and was, under the Nazis.


Sure, but that does not answer the question are you arguing that communists (also note small c) should have thrown out class conflict for backing a state that was attacking them?  


Kevbad the Bad said:


> I know it’s an unfair comparison with Brexit, but I’m just making the point that sometimes it’s better to have the devil you know, if only for a little while.


And you see this positions as socialist/communist/anarchist? It's the line taken by liberals every time - don't elect Corbyn he won't win, vote for Biden/Clinton/Blair, don't strike now you risk XYZ. As I said if you going to argue this position ok but look at where it is taking you.



maomao said:


> I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. Its not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?


Some people felt New Labour would be better than the Tories in '97, some people felt that Labour austerity would be better than Tory austerity, some people are argue for the LP to move to the right to get into power. What's hugely depressing is seeing people that were opposed to Blair now following the exact same logic that lead to New Labour in their defence of Starmer.  

If the fear of populism (of any variety) is driving people who once practised class politics into liberal technocracy I might sympathise but it is absurd to argue that their politics has not shifted. The neo-liberalism that was dominant between 1975-2008 is being put under pressure by its own contradictions (which includes populisms). The politics of socialists cannot be to prop up liberal technocracy but to seek to exploit the cracks that are opening, including the cracks created by populisms. That does not mean supporting populisms anymore than it should mean supporting liberalism, rather the aim has to be finding means of bringing class politics to the fore. Different individuals will have different views about _how_ that might be done but a key part of it must be an attack on liberalism. None of which is (necessarily) incompatible with supporting the UK remaining in the EU, but class politics is missing from so many of the arguments.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Raheem said:


> What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people. But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism. I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.


The eu itself tells you that it's motivation is deregulation and redistribution, the better to compete.  But you find that _hard to see. _


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
> my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner


Or, the sort of politics that the EU mandates (not open to change via electoral support) is right wing wing extremism. It's beyond legitimating it, it is it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> How's that going for you?
> 
> I know plenty of socialists who believe the UK working classes would be better off in the EU than under a Tory government in an independent UK. It's not an unreasonable position. And I know plenty of working class people, including EU nationals who are shitting their pants about what happens at the end of the year. What comfort does your position offer them?


But _comfort_, come on. I Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa. Of course people are scared, part of that has been this thunderous ignorance that has worked to make any anti-eu position into pro-racism. Like the above prat.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Any any 'remain' supporter was aligning themselves with liberal technocracy? The only 'correct' position was to stand above it all?


I really don't think I've ever said (or implied) that a "correct position" existed in the intra-neoliberal contest to accelerate the consolidator state. Some on the 'left' sided with (neo)liberals wanting to retain UK membership of the supra state and others sided with the populist right, neoliberals in wanting to leave. As I've said before, my personal position of disengagement was not an attempt to establish a position of purity, above the fray but because I wasn't convinced that either outcome advanced the class conflict in a beneficial way.


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## Raheem (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> The eu itself tells you that it's motivation is deregulation and redistribution, the better to compete.  But you find that _hard to see. _


I don't really understand this as a response. Are you saying "fuck the EU" was basically enough for you and you either didn't think or didn't care about what the alternative would be?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And you see this positions as socialist/communist/anarchist? It's the line taken by liberals every time - don't elect Corbyn he won't win, vote for Biden/Clinton/Blair, don't strike now you risk XYZ. As I said if you going to argue this position ok but look at where it is taking you.


Arguing against a Tory neo-liberal Brexit is doing none of those things. It’s just a pragmatic approach. You may not agree with it, but that’s all it is. I think the boost that Brexit has given the far-right is potentially very bad indeed, and best avoided. Doesn’t make me a liberal. 
A bit fed up, though.


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I don't really understand this as a response. Are you saying "fuck the EU" was basically enough for you and you either didn't think or didn't care about what the alternative would be?


I can't see or understand this post. I'm against deregulation and so i support a body designed to bring about deregulation.

I think that you do understand Raheem. You smug cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Arguing against a Tory neo-liberal Brexit is doing none of those things. It’s just a pragmatic approach. You may not agree with it, but that’s all it is. I think the boost that Brexit has given the far-right is potentially very bad indeed, and best avoided. Doesn’t make me a liberal.
> A bit fed up, though.


What's your limit anarchist? Franco vs  Salazar.


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## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

I suppose an anarchist position would have been to support leave in the hope that the greater state entity were somehow destabilised or even, ultimately destroyed by the initial fragmentation of Brexit. But again, I never really saw beyond the issue being one of slivers of sovereignty being shifted between the supra state and one unitary state. Also in the knowledge that any 'shared sovereignty' withdrawn by the UK would be used to accelerate fundamentalist free-trade neoliberal forces.


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## Magnus McGinty (Sep 13, 2020)

Almost as if Golden Dawn and other nasties didn't emerge IN the EU.


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## teuchter (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa.


Wait - it's still there, even though we've left the EU?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> I can't see or understand this post. I'm against deregulation and so i support a body designed to bring about deregulation.
> 
> I think that you do understand Raheem. You smug cunt.


I don't understand, but maybe there's nothing there to be understood.


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I don't understand, but maybe there's nothing there to be understood.


Yep, beyond shitty one-liners you have sweet FA.


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## Raheem (Sep 13, 2020)

At least you're not letting it get to you.


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## maomao (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> But _comfort_, come on. I Can post a pic of a EU slave labour camp in north africa. Of course people are scared, part of that has been this thunderous ignorance that has worked to make any anti-eu position into pro-racism. Like the above prat.



I don't see how clamping down on immigration at the Northern end of Europe helps immigrants in southern Europe. Unless you're suggesting we immiserate ourselves in solidarity.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> I don't see how clamping down on immigration at the Northern end of Europe helps immigrants in southern Europe. Unless you're suggesting we immiserate ourselves in solidarity.


You understand how rhetoric works. Your post was  version of that with added emotion. 

I'd be quite happy with the eu lies being exposed, up for that.


----------



## maomao (Sep 13, 2020)

butchersapron said:


> You understand how rhetoric works. Your post was version of that with added emotion.


No, I literally mean that electing a racist party to enact a racist policy (and whatever forms of Brexit were available four years ago we got the racistest one) encourages the eu to enact racist policies and makes all our racists happy into the bargain.

The 44% of voters who voted to leave the eu might not have been racists but the 31% who voted to get Brexit done in 2019 were and now the racists are in charge. Immiseration is the only possible good outcome. It's all shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

maomao said:


> No, I literally mean that electing a racist party to enact a racist policy (and whatever forms of Brexit were available four years ago we got the racistest one) encourages the eu to enact racist policies and makes all our racists happy into the bargain.
> 
> The 44% of voters who voted to leave the eu might not have been racists but the 31% who voted to get Brexit done in 2019 were and now the racists are in charge. Immiseration is the only possible good outcome. It's all shit.


Can't help you then. The party against leave are pro-leave in this timeline. The Eu is the migrants mate.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
> my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was *having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner*



Under what context/situation?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Everyone going but wars  and erasmus  - they are killing people right now because they are not white.

OL, change from within. What you  doing?


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## butchersapron (Sep 13, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Under what context/situation?


You can fuck off and all. Prick.


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## ska invita (Sep 13, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Under what context/situation?


The day after the vote, walking down the road, shouted from a passing car. Heard of many incidents like that from friends, likely thousands across the UK.

Since we're going over old ground, when I remember Brexit the first thing that comes to mind is the racial tension in the two weeks leading up, the sick feeling in my stomach, and then that outpouring of hate the day after.

Of course it's not new... Speaking personally a few years back I had a coin thrown at me followed by Theres a Euro fuck off back to Poland. I was impressed they could tell I wasn't born here.
As a white guy I no doubt experience a tiny fraction of what others do.


----------



## yield (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> If you are going to take political actions to support that liberal democracy, rather than *political actions that advance the class conflict* then you are siding with liberalism.





Raheem said:


> What I have trouble understanding it how the bolded part can be related to Brexit. I can see it various superficial senses ("this will annoy lots of middle-class Londoners"; "let's send Brussels a message" etc), and maybe that was enough for some people.


Give over


Raheem said:


> But it has always seemed obvious to me that Brexit without planning (a given in the actual case) would, inevitably for practical purposes, result in a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy, as well as a drop in economic demand for labour, austerity and a rise in English nationalism.


There's been a massive rise of nationalism and the far right across the EU. I'm sure you know about the falling average living standards and rising inequality - especially in Greece. 

The EU is, like the WTO, from its founding, "a project of deregulation and redistribution of wealth to the wealthy"

Globalists: The End of Empire and the Birth of Neoliberalism by Quinn Slobodian (a europhile) is good if dry on this. Hayek, Mises and others, and their reaction to the collapse of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. 

Neoliberalism’s World Order (book review) Adam Tooze ▪ Summer 2018 


> Since its inception, neoliberalism has sought not to demolish the state, but to create an international order strong enough to override democracy in the service of private property.





Raheem said:


> I find it hard to see what alternative vision people might have legitimately had. Even if there is an answer to that, it would surely have to depend on the intervention of a series of unlikely random events.


Frying pan or the fire unless there's a fight for something. Those "political actions that advance the class conflict". Agency rather than chance


----------



## yield (Sep 13, 2020)

ska invita Jesus wept that's horrible mate.


----------



## Raheem (Sep 13, 2020)

yield said:


> Frying pan or the fire unless there's a fight for something.


So maybe it would be rational enough to have left the decision to fate. But I have a hard time understanding someone who would choose fire and then when you ask them why, they point you to information suggesting that frying pans can be hot.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I guess boosting right wing nationalism is one way to advance class conflict
> my favourite bit of advancing the class conflict was having (We Voted Leave Now) Leave shouted at me and my partner


Of course boosting right wing nationalism in favour of class conflict would be absurd and frankly terrible. But who is doing or arguing such? (Besides perhaps the RCG wankers). Those voting for leave? If so ok course the same logic would be applied to other voters, for example those that voted LibDem in 2010 were supporting austerity.

The biggest boost the popular radical right has received has been the refusal of so many on the left to throw away class politics.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

I'd be genuinely interested to hear from those on here who voted Leave with Lexit motivations to consider whether their desired outcome is/has/might yet yield the potential for challenging neoliberalism in the ways that they envisaged.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Who's doing the boosting of right wing nationalism? Those voting for leave? If so ok course the same logic would be applied to other voters, for example those that voted LibDem in 2010 were supporting austerity.
> 
> The biggest boost the popular radical right has received has been the refusal of so many on the left to throw away class politics.


Most of those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 (not me) did not support austerity. That’s why their vote collapsed at the next election. Lots of them, perhaps most, voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out.

With Brexit it was clear from the start that all the racists, fascists, far right, RCP relics etc were in favour it. Plenty of others were pro Brexit as well, but none of the far right were pro EU (unless you can prove me wrong).


----------



## Smangus (Sep 13, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Under what context/situation?



He's explained now so where's your fucking smug questioning  raised eyebrows now then you horrible cunt?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The day after the vote, walking down the road, shouted from a passing car. Heard of many incidents like that from friends, likely thousands across the UK.
> 
> Since we're going over old ground, when I remember Brexit the first thing that comes to mind is the racial tension in the two weeks leading up, the sick feeling in my stomach, and then that outpouring of hate the day after.
> 
> ...



Blimey!

How did the people in the car know you were a remainer tho?

Also, what part of the country do you live?  I’m also white and haven’t had any referendum grief whatsoever.

Edit: the only abuse I know of is one of our Hungarian drivers was asked by a customer as he was delivering a parcel ‘so what are you going to do now then’ in a smirky derogatory manner.

Driver reported the abuse and Amazon closed abusive customers account for driver abuse


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## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> With Brexit it was clear from the start that all the racists, fascists, far right, RCP relics etc were in favour it. Plenty of others were pro Brexit as well, but none of the far right were pro EU (unless you can prove me wrong).


With Brexit it was clear from the start that liberals, the Tory party, LibDems, capital, the CBI were all opposed to it so was a vote for remaining a boost to liberalism?
And plenty of socialist, communist and anarchist groups were supportive of a leave vote, in fact the only socialist group I know of that supported remain were the AWL.


Kevbad the Bad said:


> Arguing against a Tory neo-liberal Brexit is doing none of those things. It’s just a pragmatic approach. You may not agree with it, but that’s all it is. I think the boost that Brexit has given the far-right is potentially very bad indeed, and best avoided. Doesn’t make me a liberal.


You've gone from arguing against leaving the EU to arguing against 'a Tory neo-liberal Brexit' those are not the same. Is it a pragmatic approach to argue for a vote for Labour at the next election? What about the LibDems? How how do you take this _pragmatism_?


----------



## inva (Sep 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Most of those who voted Lib Dem in 2010 (not me) did not support austerity. That’s why their vote collapsed at the next election. Lots of them, perhaps most, voted Lib Dem to keep the Tories out.
> 
> With Brexit it was clear from the start that all the racists, fascists, far right, RCP relics etc were in favour it. Plenty of others were pro Brexit as well, but none of the far right were pro EU (unless you can prove me wrong).


Theresa May, not a racist, good stuff


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> With Brexit it was clear from the start that liberals, the Tory party, LibDems, capital, the CBI were all opposed to it so was a vote for remaining a boost to liberalism?
> And plenty of socialist, communist and anarchist groups were supportive of a leave vote, in fact the only socialist group I know of that supported remain were the AWL.


Clearly the (then) Tory government were remain, but it's obviously not the case that the Tory party (Parliamentary or Associations) were. Similarly with capital, the formal representatives like the CBI/IoD might have backed the Government remain position, but clearly there were many capitalists who recognised Brexit as a means to deregulate their way to increased rates of accumulation.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Clearly the (then) Tory government were remain, but it's obviously not the case that the Tory party (Parliamentary or Associations) were. Similarly with capital, the formal representatives like the CBI/IoD might have backed the Government remain position, but clearly there were many capitalists who recognised Brexit as a means to deregulate their way to increased rates of accumulation.


And individual members of the LP were in favour of leaving, as were the most radical UK unions. Come on you must recognise that any argument based on 'these bastards supported X' is crap.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Come on you must recognise that any argument based on 'these bastards supported X' is crap.


That's kind of what i was saying, tbf.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 13, 2020)

Looking like blustercunt may have blown getting this through the commons without amendment, now.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Sep 13, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> And individual members of the LP were in favour of leaving, as were the most radical UK unions. Come on you must recognise that any argument based on 'these bastards supported X' is crap.


Which fucking planet are you on? Don’t bother to answer.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 14, 2020)

yield said:


> ska invita Jesus wept that's horrible mate.


appreciate the empathy but its absolutely nothing compared to what other people go through. 

theres a personal side to all the brexit stuff and then theres long term strategic revolutionary goals and action - so many pros and cons to weigh up, and i tend to err towards a long view of history so totally get sometimes there's short term pain for long term gain. whether a left take on brexit can lead to a long term gain... im open to the idea but wary considering where all the political momentum is these days.  votes dont happen in a vacuum they happen in a context.

i will say this, i felt as if non-british natives were thrown under a bus by much of what i heard and read said by many lexiters, and it felt like an inconsiderate betrayal - a class betrayal in fact - that in all honesty i'll never forget and has led me to draw certain conclusions about the limits of how certain parts of the left think. to me the totemic expression of that is the repeated times george galloway went grinning on stage hand shaking nigel farage <its what sums it up to me as a public moment.

objectively i think brexit has been really bad for class unity: its not the only factor of course, but its dynamic has pushed on a cultural/value rift, a generational rift, and its led a proportion of working class voters to not only vote tory for the first time, but keep their support there if polls are to be believed (though boris's repeated fuck ups are starting to do for him at least). 

still hope springs eternal, we are where we are, i hope we can make some long term good of it all.


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> appreciate the empathy but its absolutely nothing compared to what other people go through.
> 
> theres a personal side to all the brexit stuff and then theres long term strategic revolutionary goals and action - so many pros and cons to weigh up, and i tend to err towards a long view of history so totally get sometimes there's short term pain for long term gain. whether a left take on brexit can lead to a long term gain... im open to the idea but wary considering where all the political momentum is these days.  votes dont happen in a vacuum they happen in a context.
> 
> ...



Ive never watched the Labour left fuck themselves so hard as what happened with Brexit.  Labour betrayed their working class base - people who voted for them all their lives like my family who walked away from Labour when they went pro remain.


----------



## Humberto (Sep 14, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Ive never watched the Labour left fuck themselves so hard as what happened with Brexit.  Labour betrayed their working class base - people who voted for them all their lives like my family who walked away from Labour when they went pro remain.



No voters betrayed their 'working-class base'. It was a real choice.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


>



The photo depicts the expression of someone out of their depth who is thinking 'wtf just happened?'


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The photo depicts the expression of someone out of their depth who is thinking 'wtf just happened?'


it rather looks to me like the sheer happiness brought on by eating blue cheese.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i will say this, i felt as if non-british natives were thrown under a bus by much of what i heard and read said by many lexiters, and it felt like an inconsiderate betrayal - a class betrayal in fact - that in all honesty i'll never forget and has led me to draw certain conclusions about the limits of how certain parts of the left think. to me the totemic expression of that is the repeated times george galloway went grinning on stage hand shaking nigel farage <its what sums it up to me as a public moment.
> 
> objectively i think brexit has been really bad for class unity: its not the only factor of course, but its dynamic has pushed on a cultural/value rift, a generational rift, and its led a proportion of working class voters to not only vote tory for the first time, but keep their support there if polls are to be believed (though boris's repeated fuck ups are starting to do for him at least).


It was the whole point of brexit, divide and conquer, the oldest trick in the book, and some on the left fell for it.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

I remember hearing a RMT spokesperson speak for Leave/Lexit at a meeting before June 2016 focussing on exactly this point; if the UK were free from the supra state the UK would be free to increase state aid to key industries (like rail) and renationalise the assets stolen from the people.

Turns out that the first substantial single bilateral trade deal undermines that key tenet of their position.


----------



## inva (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I remember hearing a RMT spokesperson speak for Leave/Lexit at a meeting before June 2016 focussing on exactly this point; if the UK were free from the supra state the UK would be free to increase state aid to key industries (like rail) and renationalise the assets stolen from the people.
> 
> Turns out that the first substantial single bilateral trade deal undermines that key tenet of their position.


I don't see how it undermines it unless the RMT spokesperson was claiming this would inevitably happen regardless of the government and wider political context and I highly doubt they were. It's not like there hasn't been two general elections since the referendum.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

inva said:


> I don't see how it undermines it unless the RMT spokesperson was claiming this would inevitably happen regardless of the government and wider political context and I highly doubt they were. It's not like there hasn't been two general elections since the referendum.


Long time ago, now...but from my memory of the RMT position put forward it was similar to that shown below, it wasn't made contingent upon any particular Parliamentary situation; the point was that exiting the supra state would make it possible to _bring all of rail back into public ownership_. 

**
Turns out, that was wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> It was the whole point of brexit, divide and conquer, the oldest trick in the book, and some on the left fell for it.


yes. i've been watching your attempts to unify people with interest, not to say amusement


----------



## inva (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Long time ago, now...but from my memory of the RMT position put forward it was similar to that shown below, it wasn't made contingent upon any particular Parliamentary situation; the point was that exiting the supra state would make it possible to _bring all of rail back into public ownership_.
> 
> *View attachment 230322*
> Turns out, that was wrong.


Make it possible doesn't mean inevitable, I can't see how you're reading that to mean they expected a Conservative government to immediately renationalise the railways, or believe they ever said anything like that at the time.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

Drip, drip...the old New Labour narcissist Rehman Chishti has put his head above the parapet, resigning from his non job.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Drip, drip...the old New Labour narcissist Rehman Chishti has put his head above the parapet, resigning from his non job.
> 
> View attachment 230326


no one knows what FoRB stands for
and this is the first time anyone has heard from him in years


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

inva said:


> Make it possible doesn't mean inevitable, I can't see how you're reading that to mean they expected a Conservative government to immediately renationalise the railways, or believe they ever said anything like that at the time.


That's a fair point but, given that the first substantial bilateral has chopped off the possibility at the knees, it would be an interesting hypothetical exercise to consider how a Labour government, (a Labour government!) might have fared better in it's bilateral dealings and which other nations would have signed up to treaties permitting such state 'aid'.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no one knows what FoRB stands for
> and this is the first time anyone has heard from him in years


Indeed; as a niche passtime I tend to follow all the tory MPs where my extended family still live.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Indeed; as a niche passtime I tend to follow all the tory MPs where my extended family still live.


even after they got injunctions against you?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 14, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> *It was the whole point of brexit, divide and conquer,* the oldest trick in the book, and some on the left fell for it.



Really? 

A Tory conspiracy?


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 14, 2020)

I find it hard these days to believe anybody in the tory party these days is capable of conspiracy. Half of them can barely tie their own laces.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I find it hard these days to believe anybody in the tory party these days is capable of conspiracy. Half of them can barely tie their own laces.


All too true, but let's not forget that anti(then)EEC sentiment has been a well organised & funded lobbying faction within the right party of capital at least since 1961; yes, a full 12 years before the UK's actual accession. So, if not a conspiracy, the more nationalistic, nostalgic, free-market fundamentalist and kleptocratic elements within the Tory party have long seen the political and economic advantage to their class of pursuing an anti supra state campaign.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> All too true, but let's not forget that anti(then)EEC sentiment has been a well organised & funded lobbying faction within the right party of capital at least since 1961; yes, a full 12 years before the UK's actual accession. So, if not a conspiracy, the more nationalistic, nostalgic, free-market fundamentalist and kleptocratic elements within the Tory party have long seen the political and economic advantage to their class of pursuing an anti supra state campaign.


now they have what they wanted they find that sometimes you should be careful what you wish for


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> now they have what they wanted they find that sometimes you should be careful what you wish for


They haven't quite yet got the bit they want, though. Hence all the toy throwing.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

I see it was "_chaos with" _Ed Miliband who took down Johnson's tissue of lies today, then?


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 14, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I find it hard these days to believe anybody in the tory party these days is capable of conspiracy. Half of them can barely tie their own laces.



They certainly seem to have stopped the EU conspiracy to prevent us shipping food to NI.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Sep 14, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> They certainly seem to have stopped the EU conspiracy to prevent us shipping food to NI.
> 
> View attachment 230390View attachment 230391View attachment 230392


"not agreeing to adhere to subsequent rules something la di la something because the EU FASCISTS la di la something" in the talks


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 14, 2020)

hmm still pondering how much british food is exported to NI

is it not the other way around


----------



## Raheem (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I see it was "_chaos with" _Ed Miliband who took down Johnson's tissue of lies today, then?


I'm really confused about that. Did Milliband being a really effective communicator somehow get wiped from my memory, is it the contrast with Starmer playing havoc with my expectations, or is it that he's fine if you give him an open goal?


----------



## Ax^ (Sep 14, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I'm really confused about that. Did Milliband being a really effective communicator somehow get wiped from my memory, is it the contrast with Starmer playing havoc with my expectations, or is it that he's fine if you give him an open goal?



has he not reported having a stutter/stammer

guessing having a open goal is easier


----------



## brogdale (Sep 14, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I'm really confused about that. Did Milliband being a really effective communicator somehow get wiped from my memory, is it the contrast with Starmer playing havoc with my expectations, or is it that he's fine if you give him an open goal?


Strange days.


----------



## tommers (Sep 14, 2020)

This country is such a fucking shithole.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 14, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I'm really confused about that. Did Milliband being a really effective communicator somehow get wiped from my memory, is it the contrast with Starmer playing havoc with my expectations, or is it that he's fine if you give him an open goal?



He was always ok but he was deeply committed to working with the Labour right and made overtures towards the Labour left by not actually calling them cunts and offering mild socialism in small doses in his manifesto. Unprecedented attempt at unity there.

Both sides hated him as a result and wanted rid up until the month before the actual for real date of the 2015 GE.

The press loathed him and made him into a figure of fun with a silly voice and a commie dad.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 14, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> They certainly seem to have stopped the EU conspiracy to prevent us shipping food to NI.
> 
> View attachment 230390View attachment 230391View attachment 230392



I think you mean the occupied 6 counties.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I see it was "_chaos with" _Ed Miliband who took down Johnson's tissue of lies today, then?


He absolutely thumped him. Tbf, it was  aterrific speech.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 14, 2020)

forensic


----------



## two sheds (Sep 14, 2020)

Brexit: internal market bill passes by 77 votes amid Tory party tension
					

30 Tory MPs abstain and two vote against controversial bill which will break international law




					www.theguardian.com
				




not that many tories with a backbone then


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 14, 2020)

redsquirrel said:


> Of course boosting right wing nationalism in favour of class conflict would be absurd and frankly terrible. But who is doing or arguing such? (Besides perhaps the RCG wankers)


ermm...RCG or RCP? There's a fair differfence (the RCG were the bunch who infiltrated, completely took over, and then completely dicked over the City of London Anti Apartheid group)


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Brexit: internal market bill passes by 77 votes amid Tory party tension
> 
> 
> 30 Tory MPs abstain and two vote against controversial bill which will break international law
> ...


Nope. No surprise. However, the Lords may pan out to be a different story


----------



## PTK (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ermm...RCG or RCP? There's a fair differfence (the RCG were the bunch who infiltrated, completely took over, and then completely dicked over the City of London Anti Apartheid group)


I suppose we have to give the RCG credit for still existing, don't we?


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 15, 2020)

PTK said:


> I suppose we have to give the RCG credit for still existing, don't we?


if we must.....


----------



## PTK (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> if we must.....


When I were a lad, there were at least three Arseies, the Arsey Gee, the Arsey Pee, and the Arsey Ell. The latter two Arseies are no more.


----------



## PTK (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> if we must.....


When I were a lad, there were at least three Arseies, the Arsey Gee, the Arsey Pee, and the Arsey Ell. The latter two Arseies are no more.


----------



## PTK (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> if we must.....


When I were a lad, there were at least three Arseies, the Arsey Gee, the Arsey Pee, and the Arsey Ell. The latter two Arseies are no more.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2020)

yep three of them


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 15, 2020)

PTK said:


> When I were a lad, there were at least three Arseies, the Arsey Gee, the Arsey Pee, and the Arsey Ell. The latter two Arseies are no more.


So good, you said it three times!


----------



## philosophical (Sep 15, 2020)

I caught an interview on newsnight with somebody I assumed was speaking for the EU.
The point she made is that the land border between two different systems has been the (as yet still unresolved) issue since the start of all this from the brexit vote.
There is no new stuff, the Irish border problem is there.
Wishing it wasn't because of whatever reason, or throwing a diplomatic or national tantrum about it is not going to change things. There will either be a deal that accommodates the conundrum or there won't.
The issue is the same one to conceive a workable solution for, whether you're a lexiteer, or a far right brexiteer.


----------



## PTK (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> So good, you said it three times!


My keyboard has a stutter.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ermm...RCG or RCP? There's a fair differfence (the RCG were the bunch who infiltrated, completely took over, and then completely dicked over the City of London Anti Apartheid group)


Sorry, I meant the RCP.


----------



## andysays (Sep 15, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> hmm still pondering how much british food is exported to NI
> 
> is it not the other way around


I think what's much more significant is the amount of EU stuff which currently goes to NI through Britain, and would potentially be subject to going through border controls twice, unless different supply routes were set up which avoided Britain altogether.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 15, 2020)

More complete chaos and shambles in the making:


----------



## tommers (Sep 15, 2020)

Glad that Kent is getting our border back. First step back to our independent kingdom.


----------



## tommers (Sep 15, 2020)

Get Kexit done.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 15, 2020)

As long as border control is on the Medway; keep them WestKent stockbroker wankers out.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Nope. No surprise. However, the Lords may pan out to be a different story



Or the Neill amendment they vote on next week.

It's not only ex-remainers and political has-beens opposing the bill; it's influential, hitherto pretty loyal and relatively sane characters like Tughendat and Ellwood who don't like the thought of breaking international law, but also the ERG loons who think he's not gone far enough.  Brexit has always been about trying to stop the party tearing itself apart over Europe and last year when the Grieve/Soubry types were kicked out it looked to have succeeded, but the truce seems to be well and truly over now.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 15, 2020)

tommers said:


> Get Kexit done.



Kexit sounds like a euphemism for taking your pants off!


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> He absolutely thumped him. Tbf, it was  aterrific speech.


In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
He could always put forward a good argument.
Nice bloke too.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 15, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> ermm...RCG or RCP? There's a fair differfence (the RCG were the bunch who infiltrated, completely took over, and then completely dicked over the City of London Anti Apartheid group)


Dicked them over by setting up and resourcing the non stop picket for years? The bastards.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> In the land of the blind the one eyed man is king.
> He could always put forward a good argument.
> Nice bloke too.



If he could have eaten a bacon sarnie he'd have made prime minister


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> If he could have eaten a bacon sarnie he'd have made prime minister



Ah, but then we'd have had _chaos_.


----------



## Sprocket. (Sep 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> If he could have eaten a bacon sarnie he'd have made prime minister


If a person’s life could be summed up in one instant.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2020)

tommers said:


> Glad that Kent is getting our border back. First step back to our independent kingdom.


Is that the Man of Kent Border or the Kentish man border?


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> If he could have eaten a bacon sarnie he'd have made prime minister


tbf The British electorate is more sophisticated than that. Rejected chaos and confusion, which was nice


----------



## mauvais (Sep 15, 2020)

I don't think my wife's "Brexit Cupboard" is going to cut it. I guess we can empty it out and lay it flat, recessed six foot in the ground.


----------



## andysays (Sep 15, 2020)

I'm about to set off for a couple of days in Margate. 

Should I be taking my passport?


----------



## tommers (Sep 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> As long as border control is on the Medway; keep them WestKent stockbroker wankers out.





gosub said:


> Is that the Man of Kent Border or the Kentish man border?



brogdale makes our position perfectly clear above.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 15, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Ah, but then we'd have had _chaos_.



communism


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Dicked them over by setting up and resourcing the non stop picket for years? The bastards.


tbh, I was on that picket for 18+ months, and it was always others who played a much bigger role in manning and resourcing it then. (I don't know what it was like at other points, but the RCG were pretty parasitical in the mid 80s


----------



## MrSki (Sep 18, 2020)

Amal Clooney quits as special envoy over internal market bill.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 22, 2020)

Not an official source obviously, but a bit of a mess if even partially true.


----------



## 2hats (Sep 22, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Not an official source obviously, but a bit of a mess if even partially true.



Being reported in the Torygraph. Entirely predictable.








						UK to 'reset' sat nav plans after scrapping work on £5bn Galileo rival
					

Some officials are believed to have pushed for the Government to examine a return to the European Galileo project




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				





Spoiler: Full article.



UK to 'reset' sat nav plans after scrapping work on £5bn Galileo rival

Some officials are believed to have pushed for the Government to examine a return to the European Galileo project

By James Titcomb SAN FRANCISCO
19 September 2020 • 8:30pm, DT

The Government has formally scrapped Theresa May’s plans for a British version of the GPS satellite navigation programme, leading to parts of Whitehall now pushing for the UK to rejoin the EU’s Galileo system.

The UK Space Agency is expected to announce in the coming days that it has terminated the GNSS project, which Mrs May put £92m of taxpayer funds into in 2018.

Under a reset of Britain’s space ambitions, the agency is now poised to examine alternatives for a sovereign positioning system, including deploying satellites from OneWeb, the bankrupt space company the Government is paying £400m to rescue.

Multiple options are understood to be in consideration. Civil servants and parts of the industry have pushed for the reset to revive talks on joining the EU’s Galileo system, which Britain was frozen out of during Brexit negotiations. The Government said participating in Galileo was off the table.

Substantial differences have emerged within government about the merits of investing in OneWeb. UKSA officials and experts have disparaged the idea of repurposing the company’s broadband satellites to build a location system, saying they could suffer from signal interference and could not carry the heavy atomic clocks needed for accurate time signals.

Research on a British equivalent to Galileo and America’s GPS, which would have used heavier higher-orbit satellites, was estimated to cost between £3bn and £5bn, and the UKSA has been winding down industry contracts in recent weeks.

Alternatives to OneWeb could include a regional approach using geostationary satellites, which would be cheaper since fewer satellites would be needed to cover a portion of the Earth’s surface.

Accurate and secure positioning systems are seen as being of increasing national importance due to technologies such as autonomous cars and boats, and as foreign governments and criminals exploit the vulnerabilities of GPS.

Several British companies had been involved in developing Galileo before the European Space Agency moved work abroad after Article 50 was invoked.

The Government has agreed to take a 45pc stake in OneWeb, which entered bankruptcy in March, in a joint venture with India’s Bharti Global.

A spokesman for the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy said: "The Government has set a clear ambition for a sovereign space programme which will bring long-term strategic and commercial benefits for the UK. Work is ongoing across Government to determine the UK’s positioning, navigation and timing requirements, and assessing options for meeting them.

"The UK will not participate in the EU’s Galileo programme. Current OneWeb satellites are used to deliver satellite communications services, not satellite navigation."


----------



## mauvais (Sep 22, 2020)

Plenty more where that came from.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 22, 2020)

It's not being reported much but isn't there a deadline from the EU of 1st October (next week) to withdraw the illegal bill or talks binned and legal action begins?

When does the illegal bill finish it's journey through parliament?


----------



## zahir (Sep 22, 2020)

Banks closing accounts for Brits living in the EU.



			https://www.thelocal.fr/20200921/how-post-brexit-bank-changes-will-affect-british-people-in-france


----------



## brogdale (Sep 22, 2020)

zahir said:


> Banks closing accounts for Brits living in the EU.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.thelocal.fr/20200921/how-post-brexit-bank-changes-will-affect-british-people-in-france


Control being taken back.


----------



## tommers (Sep 22, 2020)

UK Space Agency?!?!

Two blokes sat next to fax machine.





			
				Wikipedia said:
			
		

> *List of Spaceports[edit]*
> Scotland
> 
> 
> ...



hahahaha.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 22, 2020)

tommers said:


> UK Space Agency?!?!
> 
> Two blokes sat next to fax machine.


Only one soon, savings will need to be made


----------



## tommers (Sep 22, 2020)

I want to go to Spaceport Cornwall.




			
				Cornwall Live said:
			
		

> “In particular, I am keen to see the local stakeholders, working in partnership with universities, to build on Cornwall’s historical strengths for science and innovation; to become a global centre for space communication, spaceflight and space mining.”



Space MINING?!?!?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 22, 2020)

tommers said:


> UK Space Agency?!?!
> 
> Two blokes sat next to fax machine.
> 
> ...



Ironically we were once a leader in the field, just as we were with aircraft. Rocket programs designed in the UK and tested in Australia.

Time and again though expertise has been sold out to other countries or the free market and suddenly nothing left but middle management demanding solutions they've no idea how to implement or what it takes to make work.


----------



## editor (Sep 22, 2020)

Bad news for ex-pats



> Thousands of Britons living in the EU will have their UK bank accounts closed by the end of the year because of the UK’s failure to agree a post-Brexit trade deal.
> 
> Lloyds, Barclays and Coutts have informed retail and business customers that they will lose their accounts before or when the Brexit transition period ends on 31 December and more banks are expected to follow suit.
> 
> ...












						Thousands of Britons living in EU told their UK bank accounts will be closed
					

Lloyds and Barclays among banks taking action due to lack of post-Brexit trade deal




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 22, 2020)

You could see that one coming a mile off. They were warned...


----------



## gosub (Sep 22, 2020)

tommers said:


> I want to go to Spaceport Cornwall.
> 
> 
> 
> Space MINING?!?!?


Space mining we knew about, but if the Cornish are involved- space pasties


----------



## Smangus (Sep 22, 2020)

Cue Poldark the astronaut, Rooosss!


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 22, 2020)

Smangus said:


> Cue Poldark the astronaut, Rooosss!


or "raaarss"....


----------



## MrSki (Sep 22, 2020)

Government lose vote in HoL by 100 regarding trade deal with US & chlorinated chicken.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 22, 2020)

david Lammy sticks it to Robert Buckland & the rule of law.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 22, 2020)

is good but 

bringing the barristers' profession into disrepute


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2020)

JPMorgan Chase & Co. is moving about 200 billion euros ($230 billion) from the U.K. to Frankfurt as a result of Britain’s exit from the European Union, a shift that will make it one of the largest banks in Germany.





__





						JPMorgan to Move $230 Billion Assets to Germany Under Brexit
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2020)

A leaked letter reveals that Boris Johnson's government fears that its Brexit plans will cause chaos at British ports with motorway queues of up to 7,000 lorries at the Dover-Calais border.

The Chancellor of the Duchy of Lancaster, Michael Gove wrote to British businesses warning that in a worst-case scenario, up to 70% of British truckers face being stopped when they reach the European Union due to not having the correct paperwork, should Britain leave the Brexit transition period without a trade deal.









						Leaked Michael Gove Brexit letter warns of 7,000-truck queues at Dover - Business Insider
					

Gove's letter warns that up to 70% of British exporters might not have the correct paperwork to trade with the EU from next year.



					www.businessinsider.com


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

there'll be queues right across the English Channel


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 23, 2020)

This seems positive:









						Brexit boom: EU panic as companies flee bloc for bright future in Britain 'Boom for UK'
					

BREXIT Britain's future could prove to be vastly profitable for UK industries according to one expert.




					www.google.com
				




Success brings people together so an ‘economic boom’ would be fantastic for the country.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> This seems positive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Express 🤣 now there's an unbiased source of brexit news. Have they found Diana's body yet?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> This seems positive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




yeah. you may want to look into the garbage that oulds produces under the bruges group banner


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> This seems positive:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's a load of bollocks.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> there'll be queues right across the English Channel


I read the queues will be around 175km


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

i dunno, maybe the wrong place for this, but this is the kind of guff that twats like the bruge lot are working on


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> there'll be queues right across the English Channel


In years when the UK wheat harvest is low, imports from France & Germany (along with Canada) are used to make good the shortfall. Estimates are that this year's harvest, affected as it was by various weather extremes at crucial points, will be significantly down on the mean.

Bread riots ahoy?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

the idea of a social issue being labelled as a disease or an affliction is a bit erm...


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> The Express 🤣 now there's an unbiased source of brexit news. Have they found Diana's body yet?





All sources of news, especially Brexit are biased.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> All sources of news, especially Brexit are biased.



And yet, you knowingly post links to Fox, The Daily Mail and other right wing garbage.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> i dunno, maybe the wrong place for this, but this is the kind of guff that twats like the bruge lot are working on
> 
> 
> View attachment 231452


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> i dunno, maybe the wrong place for this, but this is the kind of guff that twats like the bruge lot are working on
> 
> 
> View attachment 231452



Jesus Christ.    Even by their low standards that is utter shite.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

FYR, this the source for the above graph bollocks





__





						Moralitis, A Cultural Virus: Amazon.co.uk: Oulds, Robert, McCrae, Niall: 9781838065829: Books
					

Buy Moralitis, A Cultural Virus 2nd Revised edition by Oulds, Robert, McCrae, Niall (ISBN: 9781838065829) from Amazon's Book Store. Everyday low prices and free delivery on eligible orders.



					www.amazon.co.uk
				




" For too long tradition and common sense have been marginalised by an illiberal elite, whose supposedly progressive ideology has degenerated into a collective mental malady. This treatise describes the virulent spread of 'woke' group-think as moralitis - a cultural virus. Robert Oulds and Niall McCrae show how and why we must protect society from the social justice agitators of subversive identity politics, and reverse their long march through the institutions. Treatment and prevention of this disease is crucial to reviving the Enlightenment values of liberty, reason and truth. Consider this book as an antidote "

dont bother clicking through- Toby Jung has given it a 5* review


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> All sources of news, especially Brexit are biased.


err yes, but there's rather a large chasm in quality, standards and ethics of journalism, between (say) the BBC and the Express.
And if you're too thick and ignorant to understand why that is so, then STFU.


----------



## tommers (Sep 23, 2020)

Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎



what he hasn't yet mentioned is that people from kent going to other parts of the country will also need a permit to travel.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> err yes, but there's rather a large chasm in quality, standards and ethics of journalism, between (say) the BBC and the Express.
> And if you're too thick and ignorant to understand why that is so, then STFU.


it's wicked to mock the afflicted


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> And yet, you knowingly post links to Fox, The Daily Mail and other right wing garbage.


i refer you to my previous post


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎



Not sure the Surrey yeoman of Limpsfield Chart will get what they voted for!


----------



## Winot (Sep 23, 2020)

Good thread here on the Brexit to-do list. Starts with textbook chutzpah.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

Does this mean that Kent will now effectifvely be French??


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

"...users risk encountering bugs..." from a Johnson regime out-sourced IT project? Really?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Does this mean that Kent will now effectifvely be French??


Er...no...(East) Kent will be a part of what it has always been for one and a half millennia; Schleswig-Holstein


----------



## tommers (Sep 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what he hasn't yet mentioned is that people from kent going to other parts of the country will also need a permit to travel.



Good. More borders the better.  Got everything i need already. Keep those dirty sussex bastards out of our glorious homelands. Tax the lorries, build a cunting wall! 

I'm going to push for Chatham to be its own state soon, like Monaco or Vatican City. 

We hold all the cards!


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

We all knew that Brexit would lead to the break up of the Union; who knew it would lead to the break up of England first!


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎



Unfortunately, there's also the little matter of having to set up lorry parks to handle *7000* lorries whose cargo is being processed excruciatingly slowly. Plus the potential for *100km* tailbacks that will create.
Basically, the fair county of Kent is goiing to be turned from the Garden of England to the Carpark of England


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Good. More borders the better.  Got everything i need already. Keep those dirty sussex bastards out of our glorious homelands. Tax the lorries, build a cunting wall!
> 
> I'm going to push for Chatham to be its own state soon, like Monaco or Vatican City.
> 
> We hold all the cards!


AFAIK Chatham, along with the other Medway towns is already a Unitary district and not, now, technically part of Kent at all...East or West. Maybe all the waiting HGVs will be able to park there?


----------



## two sheds (Sep 23, 2020)

That's going to mean huge queues of trucks at the Sussex-Kent border though. 

The only way to solve that will be by charging trucks £300 at the Sussex border if they don't have a permit.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Unfortunately, there's also the little matter of having to set up lorry parks to handle *7000* lorries whose cargo is being processed excruciatingly slowly. Plus the potential for *100km* tailbacks that will create.
> Basically, the fair county of Kent is goiing to be turned from the Garden of England to the Carpark of England


Especially difficult now due to the meddling Anglo Saxons (Jutes):


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Especially difficult now due to the meddling Anglo Saxons (Jutes):
> 
> View attachment 231485


I can imagine the more swivel-eyed brexiters using that as conclusive proof of sinister German plotting to undermine Brexit


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

fuckin jutes, coming over here etc


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> All sources of news, especially Brexit are biased.


All sources being flawed is not the same as all sources being equal. 

You thick cunt.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> fuckin jutes, coming over here etc


It's always the Jutes with you people...


----------



## tommers (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Unfortunately, there's also the little matter of having to set up lorry parks to handle *7000* lorries whose cargo is being processed excruciatingly slowly. Plus the potential for *100km* tailbacks that will create.
> Basically, the fair county of Kent is goiing to be turned from the Garden of England to the Carpark of England



You seem to think that having 7000 lorries full of goods within our borders puts us at some kind of disadvantage.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎



An attempt to displace the queues I guess


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> You seem to think that having 7000 lorries full of goods within our borders puts us at some kind of disadvantage.


Well, I'm pretty sure the good people of kent won't be ecstatic about having them all there _at the same time_. for obvious reasons of inconvenience!


----------



## MrSki (Sep 23, 2020)

Will the Kent access permit be known as a kermit?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

Artist's impression of Clacket Lane services on 01/01/21:


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yessss.. Kent is taking back control. 😎




Just checking here but am I right in thinking there hasn’t been an internal border in Kent since Alfred the Great was in charge?

And even then I doubt there was much of one.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Sep 23, 2020)

Honestly if I knew it would involve sealing off Kent from the rest of the country I'd have voted leave.


----------



## tommers (Sep 23, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Just checking here but am I right in thinking there hasn’t been an internal border in Kent since Alfred the Great was in charge?
> 
> And even then I doubt there was much of one.


Yeah 863 or something was the last time we controlled our own borders.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Yeah 863 or something was the last time we controlled our own borders.



#makekentgreatagain


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

The new Kentish Border Force:


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 23, 2020)

Hauliers have had enough of Michael Gove

The smug buffoon knows fuck all and has adopted an unfortunate hectoring tone in his letters to UK hauliers- effectively seeking to shift the blame onto them and the EU for "not preparing adequately" rather than the UK governments' belief in unicorns and a good opportunity for disaster capitalists. 

Still as the Odeys and Rees-Moggs of this world count their millions in January 2021 they will care very little for lorry drivers sitting for an indefinite period on the M20. Good idea to visit Dover Castle, or Deal Beach before January next year as very unlikely you'll be able to afterwards. What a disaster is brewing here.

On Kent becoming independent, a fissure surely will happen between West Kent (de facto capital Westerham, quickly re-named Farage City) and the People's Democratic Republic of East Kent, with a hardline Marxist-Leninist regime installed in Gillingham, re-opening the coal mines, building a Trabant factory in Sheerness, and funding a heavily armed separatist regime by charging extortionate rates for use of the republic's  share of the River Thames. Gillingham FC to be guaranteed European football every season by dominating the new East Kent Premier League.


----------



## MrSki (Sep 23, 2020)

Grayling's (no) ferry company goes bust.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

its darkly funny i suppose but piss taking aside, its a grim reality looming


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> its darkly funny i suppose but piss taking aside, its a grim reality looming


That _adequate food supplies _promise is beginning to look massively Johnsonesque.


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 23, 2020)

I love Kent and have friends and family staying there. It's facing a desperate couple of years really, as are the rest of us, to a lesser degree.

Everyone knows this will be a disaster, everyone knows it will cause massive disruption and likely massive economic degradation and unemployment, everyone can see creeping oligarchisation and democratic erosion in plain sight.

But no one can stop it.


----------



## Flavour (Sep 23, 2020)

they control bloody everything them jutes!


----------



## steeplejack (Sep 23, 2020)

PS- Dover Athletic FC were ready to sign a deal with Bromley (I think) to use their ground for home fixtures, if Brexit had gone ahead on time, as visiting football clubs would not have been able to reach fixtures in Dover easily, as a result of the port collapsing in the early hours after a no-deal .

All a bit academic now as sadly corona is likely to sink the National League season and as a result (very likely) the football club itself. But indicative of the batshit insane preparations this nonsense is forcing ordinary companies / folk to have to make.


----------



## andysays (Sep 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The new Kentish Border Force:
> 
> View attachment 231498


I thought Walmington on Sea was supposed to be in Sussex, but it actually turns out to have been in West Kent, so this is more appropriate than I first thought


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

andysays said:


> I thought Walmington on Sea was supposed to be in Sussex, but it actually turns out to have been in West Kent, so this is more appropriate than I first thought


The stallion rampant on the cap badges was the give away.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> You seem to think that having 7000 lorries full of goods within our borders puts us at some kind of disadvantage.



Lorries sitting in massive traffic jams aren't much of an advantage to anyone, especially if they've perishable goods in the back.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> I love Kent and have friends and family staying there. It's facing a desperate couple of years really, as are the rest of us, to a lesser degree.
> 
> Everyone knows this will be a disaster, everyone knows it will cause massive disruption and likely massive economic degradation and unemployment, everyone can see creeping oligarchisation and democratic erosion in plain sight.
> 
> But no one can stop it.


We are heading for the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks.
And it's all foreseeable, and was preventable.
And it's happening 100% as a result of government policy.
 the theatre sector, which is solid Tory ground How the fuck did we end up in this mess?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 23, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Lorries sitting in massive traffic jams aren't much of an advantage to anyone, especially if they've perishable goods in the back.



They're an advantage to my mate Jim, he steals goods from lorries, mostly around Heathrow, but he'll be happy to expand to Kent come January; another Brexit win


----------



## Raheem (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We are heading for the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks.


A bit optimistic. My feeling is that the clusterfucks will keep coming.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

That iconic breakthrough moment in the S_urrEnt tunnel _ beneath the Greensand ridge between Limpsfield and Crockham Hill:


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We are heading for the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks.
> And it's all foreseeable, and was preventable.
> And it's happening 100% as a result of government policy.
> the theatre sector, which is solid Tory ground How the fuck did we end up in this mess?


There will be a bigger clusterfuck along shortly


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 23, 2020)

just wait until private non commercial vehicles are excluded from using the tunnel.


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We are heading for the clusterfuck to end all clusterfucks.
> And it's all foreseeable, and was preventable.
> And it's happening 100% as a result of government policy.
> the theatre sector, which is solid Tory ground How the fuck did we end up in this mess?


e2a; ignore the bit about the Theatre, mispost and my cackhandedness whilst posting on another site elsewhere


----------



## Streathamite (Sep 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> There will be a bigger clusterfuck along shortly


That's pretty much a certainty, yes


----------



## ska invita (Sep 23, 2020)

I wonder what the traffic implications of this Kent thing will be
No doubt there'll still be Operation Shit Stack anyway
But the idea is to keep some trucks displaced



The two roads trucks approach Kent on are the M25 at the Dartford Crossing and also M25 coming from the South West...
I wonder where the natural pre-Kent pile up for trucks will be instead?  Could get very snarly... M25 is a pinch point already

**Also how come Rochester isnt in Kent on that map?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I wonder what the traffic implications of this Kent thing will be
> No doubt there'll still be Operation Shit Stack anyway
> But the idea is to keep some trucks displaced
> 
> ...


They seceded last week


----------



## maomao (Sep 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I wonder what the traffic implications of this Kent thing will be
> No doubt there'll still be Operation Shit Stack anyway
> But the idea is to keep some trucks displaced
> 
> ...


Medway has its own council.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I wonder what the traffic implications of this Kent thing will be
> No doubt there'll still be Operation Shit Stack anyway
> But the idea is to keep some trucks displaced
> 
> ...


Medway has been a unitary authority, independent of KCC, since 1998.

AFAIK, the main provisions for HGV parking are within Kent; operation Brock (portmanteau of Brexit & cock-up?) having 4 phases that work progressively back from Dover & The Channel Tunnel towards the M26 junction with the M25 at Sevenoaks.

Fuck knows where they expect the traffic with the correct papers/Kent permit to go?


----------



## brogdale (Sep 23, 2020)

The Kentish coastal town of No Deal


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2020)

So all the languestine that would normally go to Spain will remain in the UK. Yum!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 231572




Why doesn’t that name a single company, hedge fund or banker?


----------



## Supine (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So all the languestine that would normally go to Spain will remain in the UK. Yum!



deep fried with chips and mushy peas


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So all the languestine that would normally go to Spain will remain in the UK. Yum!



In the short term, yes.  In the longer run the lack of a market to sell them into is likely either to make much of the fleet shift to catching something else, or just go out of business.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> In the short term, yes.  In the longer run the lack of a market to sell them into is likely either to make much of the fleet shift to catching something else, or just go out of business.


There will be a market here. It's a myth to say there wont be.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2020)

Doubt that this would cause much dissent on here...


----------



## Raheem (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There will be a market here. It's a myth to say there wont be.


There's obviously going to be a market for anything edible or close to.


----------



## ska invita (Sep 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Doubt that this would cause much dissent on here...
> 
> View attachment 231598



im still surprised the north east didnt vote for 'independence' under new labour when they had the chance (im referring to this 2004 North East England devolution referendum - Wikipedia)


----------



## Supine (Sep 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Doubt that this would cause much dissent on here...
> 
> View attachment 231598



So as a resident of Cumbria I'm now out of England? Bonus!


----------



## Yossarian (Sep 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Doubt that this would cause much dissent on here...
> 
> View attachment 231598



The map makes it look like Britain needs to put some cream on its swollen Kent.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 24, 2020)

Surrey County Council has released a statement:


*Surrey has announced plans to introduce a permit scheme for lorry drivers wishing to cross into Kent, to avoid the predicted tailbacks caused by lorries trying to cross the recently announced Kent border.*

A Surrey County Council spokesperson told us, “We understand the need for some sort of border in Kent, as they seek to avoid miles of queues outside Dover by ensuring everyone has the correct paperwork before they even get into the county.

“But all this does is shift the problem onto our doorstep.  Any driver without the correct paperwork will be stuck in our county, and this simply won’t do.  We can’t have miles-long tailbacks simply shifted from Dover to Surrey.

“So, today we are announcing a new permit scheme for all lorries wishing to pass through Surrey on their way to Kent.

“The paperwork will be simple and straightforward and will ensure the roads of our country remain congestion-free in post-Brexit Britain.

“Any drivers who do not have the correct paperwork will be refused entry, to ensure there are no queues at the Surrey-Kent border.”

The news has been welcomed by residents of Surrey, but has quickly led to copycat schemes in bordering counties.

A Berkshire counsellor told us, “Wait, what? They’re going to push the queues into our backyard. Oh no they’re bloody not!

“Consider this the start of the Berkshire-Surrey Border Permit Scheme, in which any lorry wishing to drive through Berkshire in order to access Surrey in order to get to Kent will have to have a permit, so we can avoid queues on our side of the Berkshire-Surrey border.”

The authorities in Oxfordshire are said to be watching developments closely.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 24, 2020)

I had it down as Sussex, but it is certainly the logical progression all the way up to Cumbria.  


(and yes, I know  ).


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There will be a market here. It's a myth to say there wont be.



Of course there'll be a market, but it's not and won't be large enough.  The langoustine fishery is overwhelmingly dependent on exports, and if they become unviable the boats will either have to catch something else or tie up.  That applies to much of the shellfish sector.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Of course there'll be a market, but it's not and won't be large enough.  The langoustine fishery is overwhelmingly dependent on exports, and if they become unviable the boats will either have to catch something else or tie up.  That applies to much of the shellfish sector.


Good news for the langoustine.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Good news for the langoustine.



But not such good news for whatever species they move onto. There's a lot of catching power in that fleet.  Or, if there's nothing to move on to, not good news for the fishermen, or the fishing ports where there aren't many alternative jobs.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But not such good news for whatever species they move onto. There's a lot of catching power in that fleet.  Or, if there's nothing to move on to, not good news for the fishermen, or the fishing ports where there aren't many alternative jobs.


Yeah, I know...suppose just pretending there might be a sliver of good news amongst the unrelenting shitshow....you know.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But not such good news for whatever species they move onto. There's a lot of catching power in that fleet.  Or, if there's nothing to move on to, not good news for the fishermen, or the fishing ports where there aren't many alternative jobs.


UK fishermen wont have EU boats taking 65 % of the fish.


----------



## Winot (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Of course there'll be a market, but it's not and won't be large enough.  The langoustine fishery is overwhelmingly dependent on exports, and if they become unviable the boats will either have to catch something else or tie up.  That applies to much of the shellfish sector.



Which is why although fishing industry was pro-Brexit, the fish processing industry was against it.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Surrey County Council has released a statement:
> 
> 
> *Surrey has announced plans to introduce a permit scheme for lorry drivers wishing to cross into Kent, to avoid the predicted tailbacks caused by lorries trying to cross the recently announced Kent border.*
> ...


This may be a joke but I can well imagine queues of lorries building up in the surrounding counties waiting to get into Kent and some of especially the GLC getting mardy about it. What happens with lorries whose final destination is Kent not Europe? Will they need permission to enter the county, this is another knee jerk reaction that isn't being thought through


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> UK fishermen wont have EU boats taking 65 % of the fish.


Most fish caught in UK goes to the EU regardless of who catches it so there won't be many UK boats taking them either which will probably benefit the fish but not the fishermen.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> UK fishermen wont have EU boats taking 65 % of the fish.



UK fishermen are repeating crap old arguments that have flared up periodically since the nineteenth century, and refusing to see that, although the CFP is a pain in the arse, it's an imperfect solution to a very real problem that won't go away irrespective of what happens with Brexit.



Winot said:


> Which is why although fishing industry was pro-Brexit, the fish processing industry was against it.



Precisely.  But then, the industry as a whole - taking in catching, processing and distribution - has always been fractious and divided, and good at falling out with itself.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 24, 2020)

This could lead to a revival of coastal communities that were devastated by 1972.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This could lead to a revival of coastal communities that were devastated by 1972.



Not a chance.  It's a myth that EEC accession crippled the fishing industry anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not a chance.  It's a myth that EEC accession crippled the fishing industry anyway.


i can't see people in eg grimsby taking to the water again. anyone who has visited the fishing heritage centre there will know what a tough life it was fishing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> This may be a joke but I can well imagine queues of lorries building up in the surrounding counties waiting to get into Kent and some of especially the GLC getting mardy about it. What happens with lorries whose final destination is Kent not Europe? Will they need permission to enter the county, this is another knee jerk reaction that isn't being thought through


i imagine some aged former members of the glc will get mardy about it. but as the glc hasn't existed since 1986 no one will care.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i imagine some aged former members of the glc will get mardy about it. but as the glc hasn't existed since 1986 no one will care.


Ah the world's greatest nitpicker strikes again, the GLA then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Ah the world's greatest nitpicker strikes again, the GLA then.


the world's doziest observer of london government takes a reddener again and doesn't like it

the gla may froth, but what powers do they have to do anything about it?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> This may be a joke but I can well imagine queues of lorries building up in the surrounding counties waiting to get into Kent and some of especially the GLC getting mardy about it. What happens with lorries whose final destination is Kent not Europe? Will they need permission to enter the county, this is another knee jerk reaction that isn't being thought through


I might invest in a portaloo and burger van. 

Millionaire by March!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 24, 2020)

IIRC, the 70's collapse  was on the back of a huge ( not exactly clear why) upward blip in  North Sea fish stocks during the 60's- the stocks were not there to support the scale of harvest that was considered normal. EEC aside, it was not sustainable anyway.WRT to langoustine issue- the catch is getting older, suggesting that it is imperiled long term anyway. The locals in the western isles cannot afford to eat their catch, its very much export driven. We really shouldnt be eating this stuff of we were bothered about its longevity - thats not going to happen though.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> We really shouldnt be eating this stuff of we were bothered about its longevity


Yup this ^ 

There are trawlers tearing up the ocean floor, reefs and anything living in the sea. 
Fishing 'litter' is (unless things have changed) the biggest ocean polluter.  
Farming is questionable but more forgivable, whereas this is global climate destruction at it's very worst.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> IIRC, the 70's collapse  was on the back of a huge ( not exactly clear why) upward blip in  North Sea fish stocks during the 60's- the stocks were not there to support the scale of harvest that was considered normal. EEC aside, it was not sustainable anyway.WRT to langoustine issue- the catch is getting older, suggesting that it is imperiled long term anyway. The locals in the western isles cannot afford to eat their catch, its very much export driven. We really shouldnt be eating this stuff of we were bothered about its longevity - thats not going to happen though.



Tbf the 70s collapse was more like two or three contemporaneous crises in different sectors.  You're absolutely right about the ending of the 'gadoid outburst,' but around the same time the distant-water fleets lost access to some of their best hunting grounds around Iceland, and the North Sea herring stock collapsed a few years later due to massive overfishing.  Shit times all round for the fishing industry, and very little of it had anything to do with EEC membership!


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> I might invest in a portaloo and burger van.
> 
> Millionaire by March!


That's the kind of  entrepreneurial spirit that this country is going to need in the dark days ahead.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i can't see people in eg grimsby taking to the water again. anyone who has visited the fishing heritage centre there will know what a tough life it was fishing.



You'd be surprised how much nostalgia for it there is, tbh, although that's not to say those who indulge in it would enjoy the reality of having to stand watch in a black frost 300 miles north of the Arctic Circle!


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 24, 2020)

Jonathon meades has a great series on the herring line- a kind of northern olive line - about the importance of the herring to the development of society, industry and its impact on culture and architecture ( obviously). its on Vimeo if you have a couple of hours to waste

eta called magnetic north


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> You'd be surprised how much nostalgia for it there is, tbh, although that's not to say those who indulge in it would enjoy the reality of having to stand watch in a black frost 300 miles north of the Arctic Circle!



as you obviously know, the Gaul tale still strikes a chord in the area-the reality was grim


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> You'd be surprised how much nostalgia for it there is, tbh, although that's not to say those who indulge in it would enjoy the reality of having to stand watch in a black frost 300 miles north of the Arctic Circle!


Nostalgia is going well in the UK at the moment


----------



## not-bono-ever (Sep 24, 2020)

nostalgia is the future


----------



## Badgers (Sep 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> nostalgia is the future


Sadly that seems the case


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> You'd be surprised how much nostalgia for it there is, tbh, although that's not to say those who indulge in it would enjoy the reality of having to stand watch in a black frost 300 miles north of the Arctic Circle!


yeh there's a tonne of nostalgia.  but very little desire to go to sea however that's defined


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> as you obviously know, the Gaul tale still strikes a chord in the area-the reality was grim



Tbh the _Gaul_ is one of the things that got me interested in fishing.   Back in 1997 I worked in an arcade in a seaside town near Hull, and one of the women I worked with had lost her husband on the_ Gaul_. The wreck had just been located and the local paper was full of it, including the conspiracy theories about her having been torpedoed or arrested by the Russians. Jean found it all quite distressing. So far as she was concerned she'd lost her husband in a tragic accident, and those peddling ideas the crew might still be alive somewhere were just prolonging the pain for all concerned.


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2020)




----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 25, 2020)

two sheds said:


> The Express 🤣 now there's an unbiased source of brexit news. Have they found Diana's body yet?



I notice this "one expert" it is all "according to" says "would" a lot.

Very scientific, and not remotely dubious in any way!


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> AFAIK Chatham, along with the other Medway towns is already a Unitary district and not, now, technically part of Kent at all...East or West. Maybe all the waiting HGVs will be able to park there?



they can park them all on Sheppy, the extra weight might make it fall in the sea.


----------



## Dogsauce (Sep 25, 2020)

steeplejack said:


> I love Kent and have friends and family staying there. It's facing a desperate couple of years really, as are the rest of us, to a lesser degree.
> 
> Everyone knows this will be a disaster, everyone knows it will cause massive disruption and likely massive economic degradation and unemployment, everyone can see creeping oligarchisation and democratic erosion in plain sight.
> 
> But no one can stop it.



Maybe at some point liberal England will realise the futility of crowdfunding lawyers on Twitter and start passing the hat round for some decent artillery pieces.


----------



## teqniq (Sep 25, 2020)




----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2020)

The majority of people in Kent voted leave – but not to leave the UK | Fay Schopen
					

Britain’s ‘Brexit border’ looks likely to turn the county into the car park of England, says journalist Fay Schopen




					www.theguardian.com
				




😂


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2020)




----------



## isvicthere? (Sep 25, 2020)

editor said:


> The majority of people in Kent voted leave – but not to leave the UK | Fay Schopen
> 
> 
> Britain’s ‘Brexit border’ looks likely to turn the county into the car park of England, says journalist Fay Schopen
> ...



It's a good job they knew what they were voting for.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2020)

Smart Freight Software System


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Smart Freight Software System


BJ didn't get where he is today by being in any way competent


----------



## Badgers (Sep 26, 2020)

__





						Goldman Sachs to Move 100 Workers From London Ahead of Brexit
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## TopCat (Sep 26, 2020)

teqniq said:


> View attachment 231743


Very apt.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 26, 2020)

They are only going to move people where they consider those particular individuals key. If they reckon that 100 actual people need moving then the number of jobs that will be moved, where they sack someone in London and hire someone in Paris is liable to be much larger


----------



## Marty1 (Sep 26, 2020)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whats your opinion on that?  Are you sympathetic to bankers?


----------



## nino_savatte (Sep 26, 2020)

"Brexit is about having control of our borders" ~ Nigel Farage (probably). 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣


----------



## ska invita (Sep 27, 2020)

Good long FT summary of the state of Johnsons government including lots of insight into the Brexit deal, which they reckon there will be one (as opposed to no deal)



			https://lmgtfy.app/?qtype=search&q=Every+week+is+an+ordeal%E2%80%99%3A+Johnson+under+pressure+over+Brexit+and+lockdown+#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=Every%20week%20is%20an%20ordeal%E2%80%99%3A%20Johnson%20under%20pressure%20over%20Brexit%20and%20lockdown%20&gsc.page=1
		


Only thing is it makes no mention of the Irish border, nor EU sanctions threat


----------



## rubbershoes (Sep 27, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Whats your opinion on that?  Are you sympathetic to bankers?



I'm sympathetic to anyone who loses their job. 
Apart from tory MPs of course


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> I'm sympathetic to anyone who loses their job.
> Apart from tory MPs of course


They aren't losing their jobs, they're being relocated.


----------



## rubbershoes (Sep 27, 2020)

maomao said:


> They aren't losing their jobs, they're being relocated.



They're being asked to relocate.  Which means moving their whole family abroad. Disruption to children at school, their partners' jobs etc. Plenty of families may not want to move


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> They're being asked to relocate.  Which means moving their whole family abroad. Disruption to children at school, their partners' jobs etc. Plenty of families may not want to move


It's part of the life working in financial services though. Half of them were probably made to move to London in the first place; the big financial institutions have some of the most diverse workforces in London.

And if it's voluntary I bet there's a waiting list to get out of this shithole.


----------



## rubbershoes (Sep 27, 2020)

maomao said:


> It's part of the life working in financial services though. Half of them were probably made to move to London in the first place; the big financial institutions have some of the most diverse workforces in London.
> 
> And if it's voluntary I bet there's a waiting list to get out of this shithole.



Maybe. But the only people I know in financial services in London are British people who grew up here.


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Maybe. But the only people I know in financial services in London are British people who grew up here.


I worked providing transport for (among others) UBS, JP Morgan, Standard Chartered and PWC for over a decade. They have tonnes of foreign nationals working in their London offices and they regularly move people from country to country.


----------



## maomao (Sep 27, 2020)

The real job losses will be cleaners, caterers and security that are no longer needed at London offices as well as the local sandwich shops etc that will become less viable. I doubt that's who they were talking about with their one hundred jobs being moved though.


----------



## andysays (Sep 27, 2020)

rubbershoes said:


> Maybe. But the only people I know in financial services in London are British people who grew up here.


But that's a reflection of "people you know", rather than "all people who work in financial services".

The article suggests the people affected are



> Goldman Sachs employees who work in areas including sales and trading, deal-making and private wealth management



As already mentioned, it's likely to be people at the top of the company who are considered indispensable to GS's money making activities. They won't be asking secretaries and cleaners to relocate.

And although it says employees, i would imagine that many/most of them are actually partners, which is slightly different.


----------



## brogdale (Sep 27, 2020)

As an aside...exit polls saying the Swiss have voted to retain FoM with the EU by roughly 2/3 to 1/3.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 28, 2020)

This article almost brought me to tears of shame. 








						Confidence in UK's global role plunges after Brexit, poll finds
					

Belief that Britain is force for good in world is down 10 points from April 2019 in UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## killer b (Sep 28, 2020)

I dunno man, half of the country_ still _think the UK is a force for good in the world. Maniacs.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 28, 2020)

Is it really all about fishing and state aid?  i can't believe that, are we just going to be aligned enough for the EU on everything else?

What struck me today was the super imposition of Brexit and Covid. Who would have thought? If you'd told this to someone in May 2016 they wouldn't have believed it.
I wonder how much the pandemic has affected negotiations?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Sep 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Good long FT summary of the state of Johnsons government including lots of insight into the Brexit deal, which they reckon there will be one (as opposed to no deal)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Love this quote=>



> Even some Conservative MPs supportive of Mr Johnson worry he has been captured by Mr Cummings and the Vote Leave Brexit hardliners in Downing Street. “He’s like Aung San Suu Kyi, surrounded by the generals, occasionally wheeled out to smile and say everything will be OK,” says one former minister in a reference to the Myanmar chief.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Sep 29, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I wonder how much the pandemic has affected negotiations?



Fuck all, no deal means massive political shock and ability to do what the government likes and 5 years before the next government can even attempt damage control


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2020)

Blow to UK car industry in hunt for EU trade deal - BBC News
					

Documents seen by the BBC suggest key priorities for the car sector have been rebuffed by Brussels.




					www.bbc.co.uk
				






> Britain's car industry risks losing out even if there is a post-Brexit trade deal with the EU, according to documents seen by the BBC.
> 
> Car parts from Japan and Turkey used in the UK will not be treated as British, so some exports may see higher tariffs.
> 
> In a letter, Britain's chief Brexit negotiator says the UK has failed so far to get the car parts deal it wants, and "obviously cannot insist on it".


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Blow to UK car industry in hunt for EU trade deal - BBC News
> 
> 
> Documents seen by the BBC suggest key priorities for the car sector have been rebuffed by Brussels.
> ...


Actually making car parts rather than assembling other countries efforts might be the way forward.


----------



## MickiQ (Sep 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Actually making car parts rather than assembling other countries efforts might be the way forward.


Absoutely but building such an industry from scratch will take a couple of decades of effort even with the political will to do so AND we will still have to trade with other countries since the UK alone may not be a big enough market to make it worthwhile.


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2020)

and a lot of materials will have to come from abroad so the parts will similarly be taxed at higher rate?


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Absoutely but building such an industry from scratch will take a couple of decades of effort even with the political will to do so AND we will still have to trade with other countries since the UK alone may not be a big enough market to make it worthwhile.


Luckily we have a lot of people looking for these new jobs and plenty of money to invest in setting it up. I understand that Serco have already won the contract to build the factories and warehouses!


two sheds said:


> and a lot of materials will have to come from abroad so the parts will similarly be taxed at higher rate?


Am sure the government have a deal lined up


----------



## platinumsage (Sep 30, 2020)

I don't see any reason why the UK needs to be self-sufficient in cars, any more than we need to be self-sufficient in tomatoes.


----------



## andysays (Sep 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Actually making car parts rather than assembling other countries efforts might be the way forward.


Don't be ridiculous, Britain has never had any sort of car industry or any other engineering, and there's no way we would have been able to make cars without the generous Europeans providing the parts for us.

Before the EU you never saw a car on the roads in Britain and everyone walked everywhere.


----------



## tommers (Sep 30, 2020)

Never locked your door in them days.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2020)

andysays said:


> Britain has never had any sort of car industry or any other engineering


----------



## two sheds (Sep 30, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2020)




----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Blow to UK car industry in hunt for EU trade deal - BBC News
> 
> 
> Documents seen by the BBC suggest key priorities for the car sector have been rebuffed by Brussels.
> ...


It's ok, BMW will take change of the negotiations soon.


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2020)

Is a deal closer? According to this article, yes it is. I remain unsure. 








						Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener
					

Exclusive: Three-year transition period for European fishing fleets among proposals in negotiating paper




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Sep 30, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Is it really all about fishing and state aid?  i can't believe that, are we just going to be aligned enough for the EU on everything else?
> 
> What struck me today was the super imposition of Brexit and Covid. Who would have thought? If you'd told this to someone in May 2016 they wouldn't have believed it.
> I wonder how much the pandemic has affected negotiations?


Re Covid.  The UK has spent more on the economic ramifications than the EU has, the member states themselves have borrowed and spent but there will be a reckoning. Sorting out the Euro seems beyond the EU regardless of whether the UK is a member or not. 
Potentially the UK"s reckoning could come before the EUs so there are pitfalls that should be avoided. 

As much as EU has shown unity over Brexit Covid has exposed the EUs flaws the non immigration based  euroskeptics have talked of for over 20 years whilst being shown nothing but contempt


----------



## Badgers (Sep 30, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Sep 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


>











						Revealed: the millionaires hoarding UK fishing rights
					

A painstaking five-month long investigation shows that a small group of wealthy families control huge swathes of the country’s fishing quota




					unearthed.greenpeace.org
				



5 Tory families


----------



## Supine (Sep 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



I can't see any problems at all with everyone driving these in the UK


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2020)

Supine said:


> I can't see any problems at all with everyone driving these in the UK


Get the self drive option.


----------



## gosub (Sep 30, 2020)

Supine said:


> I can't see any problems at all with everyone driving these in the UK



I can, we had both the engines in storage where i used to work


----------



## TopCat (Sep 30, 2020)

gosub said:


> I can, we had both the engines in storage where i used to work


Tow it.


----------



## Crispy (Sep 30, 2020)

It's actually a bicycle


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2020)

Moving towards a new stage of "negotiations"?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2020)

Gove's charm obviously working in Brussels.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Moving towards a new stage of "negotiations"?
> 
> View attachment 232481


Oven Ready legal action


----------



## brogdale (Oct 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Oven Ready legal action


Easiest legal action in history.


----------



## DownwardDog (Oct 1, 2020)

andysays said:


> Don't be ridiculous, Britain has never had any sort of car industry or any other engineering, and there's no way we would have been able to make cars without the generous Europeans providing the parts for us.
> 
> Before the EU you never saw a car on the roads in Britain and everyone walked everywhere.



That was before car subsystems were vastly more complicated and expensive to engineer and construct.

All Jaguars use ZF transmissions made in Austria. There is absolutely no way Jaguar has a big enough market share to fund the development of a transmission like the ZF 8HP on their own. There are similar stories all over the car business - Aston Martin use Mercedes powertrains and electronics, McLaren use Italian Graziano transmissions.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 1, 2020)

tommers said:


> Never locked your door in them days.


Doors? We used to dream of doors.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Moving towards a new stage of "negotiations"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Commentators have been saying that the Tories illegal bill, threatening to wish away all border requirements with Ireland, is just the Tories playing hardball - its a threat designed to push through negotiations in their favour - but no one has said what pressure it puts on the EU. Certainly it has pressured them to issue sanctions. What else?

(The only thing I can imagine is that its a threat that the EU, and that means Ireland, would have the onus on them too implement the border with Northern Ireland - though this really is still as much of an onus on the UK as it is the EU. Doesnt make sense to me.  I can see why the Tories want cake and eat it to not have to deal with a new border, but i dont see how this is a threat - its a problem that doesn't go away just because you want it to)


----------



## Badgers (Oct 1, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Doors? We used to dream of doors.


We used a hessian sack laid over the trapdoor.


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 1, 2020)

Another classic headline from The Express: "EU humiliation plot: Legal action could force Boris to give grovelling apology to Brussels."   Who makes this crap up?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 1, 2020)

The EU legal action is meaningless. This will all be resolved before their action is actually addressed in the courts.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The EU legal action is meaningless. This will all be resolved before their action is actually addressed in the courts.


So journalists are saying... But by border checks where though?


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The EU legal action is meaningless. This will all be resolved before their action is actually addressed in the courts.



So, this same logic applies to the UK's renege bill?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 2, 2020)

Should sort things...


----------



## Raheem (Oct 2, 2020)

Ooh, did somebody say 'ditch'?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 2, 2020)

andysays said:


> Don't be ridiculous, Britain has never had any sort of car industry or any other engineering, and there's no way we would have been able to make cars without the generous Europeans providing the parts for us.
> 
> Before the EU you never saw a car on the roads in Britain and everyone walked everywhere.


----------



## Supine (Oct 2, 2020)

Interesting thread here in the current state of negotiations


----------



## brogdale (Oct 7, 2020)

We're the fucking chips


----------



## Flavour (Oct 7, 2020)

i reckon they'll sign a thin-as-fuck deal in the end. no guaranteeing future tory pm (like, heaven forbid, Gove) won't rip it up anywway


----------



## elbows (Oct 7, 2020)

It will be interesting if this is true and bears fruit. Interesting as in the shitheads will have a fit about it.









						Boris Johnson set for compromise on Human Rights Act – EU sources
					

UK prepared to retain act in order to secure security ties with EU, sources say




					www.theguardian.com
				






> Boris Johnson is prepared to make a major compromise to secure security ties with the EU by pledging in a deal on the future relationship not to rip up the Human Rights Act.
> 
> The UK is said by EU sources to be “moving” in negotiations on the issue in Brussels after previously insisting that the government would not tie its hands in any agreement on the future relationship.
> 
> While welcomed by EU negotiators as unlocking progress in the security talks, the move risks angering senior backbenchers in his party including within the powerful European Research Group, whose former chairman, the cabinet minister Jacob Rees-Mogg, has been an outspoken critic of the act, voting to repeal it in 2012 and 2016.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 7, 2020)

elbows said:


> It will be interesting if this is true and bears fruit. Interesting as in the shitheads will have a fit about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is going to be a lot of red faces and possibly a new (fraud) party formed by Farage


----------



## Raheem (Oct 7, 2020)

Tbf, a lot of them have red faces anyway.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 7, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Tbf, a lot of them have red faces anyway.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 7, 2020)

He has enough of a majority that he can ignore the headbangers. It’s not like he has a strong idealogical conviction on this, or anything really.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 8, 2020)

The headbangers are his boss, in the form of Murdoch and a gaggle of party funders. But they're capable of pragmatism, and refugees with cats are not what they really care about.


----------



## Supine (Oct 8, 2020)

Haha


----------



## editor (Oct 9, 2020)

It just keeps on delivering in stupidity and wastefulness. But, still, blue passports and fictional money for the NHS.  



> The government has quietly confirmed a list of 10 lorry parks to deal with the fallout from Brexit.
> 
> The 'inland sites' will be built in Kent, Essex, Birmingham, Warrington and north Wales - with seven of them due to be ready by January.
> 
> ...





> Europe-bound HGV drivers spotted on key roads without a 'Kent Access Permit' will receive a £300 on-the-spot fine.
> 
> 
> The network of hastily-erected concrete sites is designed to prevent chaos when EU rules come crashing to an end at the stroke of 11pm on New Year's Eve.
> ...











						List of 10 Brexit lorry parks confirmed by government - including in your area
					

The 'inland sites' are being rushed into existence in time for EU rules to come crashing to an end - as lorry drivers face being fined £300 if they don't have a 'Kent passport'




					www.mirror.co.uk


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 9, 2020)

This is utter lunacy - and we inflicted it on ourselves.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2020)

Fucks sake, North Weald is right near me.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 9, 2020)

editor said:


> It just keeps on delivering in stupidity and wastefulness. But, still, blue passports and fictional money for the NHS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


two lorry parks on west coast wales suggest border checks in the irish sea??


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> two lorry parks on west coast wales suggest border checks in the irish sea??


it is from the second day of brexit

Two lorry parks on the west coast of Wales 
And a partridge in a pear tree


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> two lorry parks on west coast wales suggest border checks in the irish sea??



Yes, those are happening.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 9, 2020)

i thought Jonhson wasnt going to let  Brussels (sic) “carve up our country" with new customs borders (that he agreed to), hence the UK Internal Market Bill. Those lorry parks on the coast suggest they are up for it after all


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i thought Jonhson wasnt going to let  Brussels (sic) “carve up our country" with new customs borders (that he agreed to), hence the UK Internal Market Bill. Those lorry parks on the coast suggest they are up for it after all



Not only has an Irish sea border been the best idea ever since Boris got into number 10 and tore up any of Mays red lines on that, we're also getting internal borders in Kent.

Its all getting a bit 2+2=5 in terms of keeping our own borders and sovereignty.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> we're also getting internal borders in Kent.


the whole Kent border thing is a bit of an exaggeration I think - its like the congestion zone more than anything


----------



## brogdale (Oct 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not only has an Irish sea border been the best idea ever since Boris got into number 10 and tore up any of Mays red lines on that, we're also getting internal borders in Kent.
> 
> Its all getting a bit 2+2=5 in terms of keeping our own borders and sovereignty.


Some said that Brexit was back to the 50's....we probably didn't realise they meant the 550's


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 9, 2020)

wheres cairnryan on that list ? suggesting that there will be a hard border with the free state obviously


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 9, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> wheres cairnryan on that list ? suggesting that there will be a hard border with the free state obviously


They daren't do that - bang goes a US trade deal if they do. There will be one in the Irish Sea, and the DUP and Orange Order will go into meltdown


----------



## spitfire (Oct 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> two lorry parks on west coast wales suggest border checks in the irish sea??



Warrington must be for the Belfast crossing, the 2 others are for the Republic, (Holyhead/Dublin and Pembroke/Fishguard to Rosslare).

DUP will be pleased.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> They daren't do that - bang goes a US trade deal if they do. There will be one in the Irish Sea, and the DUP and Orange Order will go into meltdown


It's not just a hard border, they're not keen on anything which fucks with the gfa


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Some said that Brexit was back to the 50's....we probably didn't realise they meant the 550's


They looked rather more kindly on killing kings then

And the auld ways prevailed in much of the country, don't think the theodosian edicts had gained as much traction here as they did in eg italy


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 9, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> They daren't do that - bang goes a US trade deal if they do. There will be one in the Irish Sea, and the DUP and Orange Order will go into meltdown



has to be tho', else the republics/EU  trucks will just rock up to Larne on the M1/A1  and bypass the whole irish sea WALL OF STEEL

eta unless im missing something.lots of trucks use that route


----------



## tommers (Oct 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the whole Kent border thing is a bit of an exaggeration I think - its like the congestion zone more than anything



You don't need a pass before you can enter the congestion zone.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 9, 2020)

tommers said:


> You don't need a pass before you can enter the congestion zone.



Just to get out again.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 9, 2020)




----------



## two sheds (Oct 10, 2020)

‘Unacceptable’ bacteria levels found on US meat may fuel fears over UK trade deal
					

Samples of pork and poultry showed high levels of salmonella and E coli in new study




					www.theguardian.com
				




mmmmmmmmm yum


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 10, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ‘Unacceptable’ bacteria levels found on US meat may fuel fears over UK trade deal
> 
> 
> Samples of pork and poultry showed high levels of salmonella and E coli in new study
> ...


just change the definition of acceptable level on 01/01/2021
job done


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's not just a hard border, they're not keen on anything which fucks with the gfa


oh absolutely ( I thought we all knew that, tbh).


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Some said that Brexit was back to the 50's....we probably didn't realise they meant the 550's


wouldn't mind a bit of that pagan lifestyle, if the stories about sex, drugs and booze are any guide


----------



## 2hats (Oct 11, 2020)

Could have gone in any one of two or three threads...

Panicking No 10 dumps Donald Trump and woos Joe Biden



Spoiler: ST leading story.



Tim Shipman, Political Editor
Sunday October 11 2020, 12.01am, The Sunday Times

Ministers have been told to forge links with the White House frontrunner Joe Biden after “writing off” Donald Trump’s chances of re-election, amid fears that the UK could be left out in the cold if the former vice-president wins.

Boris Johnson has been warned that Trump is on course for a landslide defeat with his Democratic opponents set to land a historic “triple whammy” by seizing control of the presidency, the Senate and the House of Representatives.

Private polling and computer models shown to No 10 last month put Biden’s chances of victory at more than 70%. The challenger has since opened up a double-digit lead and one predictive model based on polling this weekend gave him an 85% chance of winning, with the chances of a landslide better than one in three.

The prime minister spoke to the president last week, wishing him well for the election, despite an official decision not to take sides. But one senior Tory said: “They’re writing off Trump in No 10 now.”

Dominic Raab, the foreign secretary, recently visited America and met Nancy Pelosi, the House Speaker, and other congressional figures. He also talked to Chris Coons, described as “the Biden whisperer” in the Senate, as well as Richard Neal, a congressman seen as a power broker on Capitol Hill.

Karen Pierce, the British ambassador in Washington, is wooing Tony Blinken and Jake Sullivan, Biden’s foreign policy advisers, who are tipped to be secretary of state and national security adviser. Biden’s aides have resisted contacts with foreign diplomats after controversy about Trump team contacts with Russia before the last election.

Johnson’s team expect a bumpy ride if Biden wins. The presidential hopeful tweeted last month that he “can’t allow” any UK-US trade deal to proceed if Northern Ireland is “a casualty of Brexit”.

Diplomats say Biden will be cool towards Johnson because of his comments about Barack Obama during the 2016 Brexit referendum, in which he criticised “the part-Kenyan president’s ancestral dislike of the British Empire”.

One said: “They remember that. Democrats also regard Trump as appalling and disgusting and there will be a penalty for people who sucked up to Trump. Angela Merkel didn’t. Macron did and then got tough. The Democrats don’t much like Brexit.”

British diplomats in America have sent telegrams predicting that Biden will probably prioritise a trans-Pacific trade deal, or even a deal with the EU, over a bilateral deal with Britain.

On the other hand, the UK has helped keep alive the Iran nuclear deal, which Biden helped to write, in the hope that it can be revived after Trump, and officials also hope Biden will be more pro-Nato.

Problems also lie ahead if Trump stages a comeback. Woody Johnson, the US ambassador in London, has said America will slap tariffs on Scottish salmon if the UK does not accept US “chlorinated” chicken as part of a trade deal.

Lord Darroch, the former British ambassador in Washington, said in his recent memoir that Johnson was “fascinated” by Trump and saw him as “a kindred spirit”. It is understood the prime minister is personally relaxed about a Trump win since “there is an existing relationship”.

But many of Johnson’s most senior aides believe comparisons between the two damage Johnson. Dominic Cummings has told ministers to publicly keep their distance from the Trump administration.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?

The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:

a) in the middle of the Irish Sea in which case the DUP will be pissed off and the Brexit idea of 'sovereignty' is fucked because we have a border between England and N. Ireland

b) on the border between Eire and NI in which case the Good Friday agreement is fucked and we risk going back to 'the troubles'

Anything other than that risks (for example) salmonella type meat exports coming in from the US to Britain and across the border to Eira and so on to the EU?

No other possibilities?


----------



## Humberto (Oct 11, 2020)

Chaos and suffering is money?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 11, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> just change the definition of acceptable level on 01/01/2021
> job done


Or just put Serco in charge of the testing.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...


thats my understanding, yes


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

ta  I'm in 'conversation' with a Farage-style Brexiteer whose last statement was 'why should we have a border?' 

which threw me


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ta  I'm in 'conversation' with a Farage-style Brexiteer whose last statement was 'why should we have a border?'
> 
> which threw me


you either have a customs union or a border
tell them theres one in dover and kent, maybe ask why thats there


----------



## Raheem (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...


You could have both borders. That won't happen as long as we have a competent and conscientious government, though.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> you either have a customs union or a border
> tell them theres one in dover and kent



yes I did mention the Lorry Park  

Great though that he doesn't seem to recognize that being _outside _the EU means  borders with _inside _the EU. He's making it an agreement-breaking deal that the EU is betraying Britain's Sovereignty, but surely it's Johnson who has to do that if he decides on a border that is outside NI.


----------



## xenon (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ta  I'm in 'conversation' with a Farage-style Brexiteer whose last statement was 'why should we have a border?'
> 
> which threw me



were they not motivated in part to  put a border between the UK and the EU? I mean that is kind of the definition of Brexit.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> an agreement-breaking deal that the EU is betraying Britain's Sovereignty


This is the dishonest crap the tories have spouted since the Internal Market Bill - its gaslighting, its pretending the Withdrawl Agreement wasnt a defacto border agreement, its bare face bullshit hence the EU moving to legal proceedings.
Its so boldly bullshit it makes me doubt reality in all honesty


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

xenon said:


> were they not motivated in part to  put a border between the UK and the EU? I mean that is kind of the definition of Brexit.



yes that's what I sort of thought


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> This is the dishonest crap the tories have spouted since the Internal Market Bill - its gaslighting, its pretending the Withdrawl Agreement wasnt a defacto border agreement, its bare face bullshit hence the EU moving to legal proceedings.
> Its so boldly bullshit it makes me doubt reality in all honesty



Exactly, he's going on about the Withdrawal Agreement guaranteeing British sovereignty and that the EU is dishonestly breaking that. But that means a border between Eire/NI which risks a return to the 'troubles'. And if there's no physical border you're going to have people driving from NI to EU with all sorts of shit which then can be legally exported to the rest of the EU. 

I think


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...



That's the crux of it. Neither option is remotely viable of course.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Exactly, he's going on about the Withdrawal Agreement guaranteeing British sovereignty


Disingenuous. Everyone knew what it meant, DUP knew, Johnson knew. Britain does remain sovereign. It was a workaround that allowed the border to be shifted a degree. 
Theresa May said it, "no British prime minister would allow it". Johnson allowed it. The country shrugged in Brexit exhaustion. Tories won the election off resolving the impasse 

To now repaint it as EU betrayal is the kind of deep gaslighting only a serial abuser could dream up. 

Anyhow, seems they plan to build lorry parks around Wales, suggests to me border in the sea is inevitable, with the blame pinned on the EU for the sake of fools like the one you've been taking to. 

I expect there's still a lot of fall out to come here, not just economic.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2020)

There is indeed a third option, which is to unite Ireland.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 11, 2020)

Fourth option: customs union

Johnson has regularly also said he simply plans to not enforce any nominal irish border... Let it leak basically. Hard to predict the implications of that


----------



## Flavour (Oct 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Fourth option: customs union
> 
> Johnson has regularly also said he simply plans to not enforce any nominal irish border... Let it leak basically. Hard to predict the implications of that



not that hard


----------



## TopCat (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...


The Irish sea border will push a United Ireland closer...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Fourth option: customs union
> 
> Johnson has regularly also said he simply plans to not enforce any nominal irish border... Let it leak basically. Hard to predict the implications of that


The EU will want to enforce it though.


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Fourth option: customs union
> 
> Johnson has regularly also said he simply plans to not enforce any nominal irish border... Let it leak basically. Hard to predict the implications of that



Will presumably give the EU the green light to punish the UK.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...


A United Ireland  which while it's probably a dozen years off is likely more or less inevitable now


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Nuclear option, don't fucking leave the EU.
Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU, but there are no benefits in leaving, none.
Oh hang on it pleases those who sing #two world wars and one world cup, there ain't no black in the Union Jack#.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 11, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> A United Ireland  which while it's probably a dozen years off is likely more or less inevitable now


Which for me, is long overdue and hugely welcome.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Nuclear option, don't fucking leave the EU.
> Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU, but there are no benefits in leaving, none.
> Oh hang on it pleases those who sing #two world wars and one world cup, there ain't no black in the Union Jack#.


You are a complete fucking idiot.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are a complete fucking idiot.


Random insult backed up by nothing.
Tosser.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

Fun that all this banging on about British Sovereignty does look likely to lead to the 'loss' of Northern Ireland and reunification. So, as we say, there clearly could be benefits  

The same bloke seems to be an anti-vaxxer which nobody seems to have noticed, saying that we have a natural immunity to diseases and he doesn't believe in vaccines to override that natural immunity. I have mentioned smallpox and polio but no reply so far.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> ‘Unacceptable’ bacteria levels found on US meat may fuel fears over UK trade deal
> 
> 
> Samples of pork and poultry showed high levels of salmonella and E coli in new study
> ...



irradiated produce is gaining widespread acceptance of late in the great satan apparently. they have been pushing it for decades admittedly


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Can I just check something (argument elsewhere)?
> 
> The British Government will have to decide that the Irish border (and we have to have one because we won't be members of the EU so there'll have to be a border between EU and not-EU) will have to be either:
> 
> ...


customs union and/or SM. beyond that, there are no other possibilities.
And the Tories have known that ever siince they signed the WA, which makes their brazen BS over the IMB and NI even more laughable. They're caught.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Nuclear option, don't fucking leave the EU.


We had the vote, Leave won. It's over. Deal with it.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

kabbes said:


> There is indeed a third option, which is to unite Ireland.


pretty much guaranteed to happen anyway now


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We had the vote, Leave won. It's over. Deal with it.


Every end is a new beginning


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Every end is a new beginning


well yes, indeed. Not sure as  to the beginning of what, though


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

the end


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We had the vote, Leave won. It's over. Deal with it.


It's Dover, not Deal.


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Nuclear option, don't fucking leave the EU.
> Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU, but there are no benefits in leaving, none.
> Oh hang on it pleases those who sing #two world wars and one world cup, there ain't no black in the Union Jack#.


The slaughter in the med, a 'flaw'


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> We had the vote, Leave won. It's over. Deal with it.


What is over? That the whole of the UK will leave the EU on equal terms as indicated on the voting slip you reference?
Because you're wrong.
Deal with it.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> well yes, indeed. Not sure as  to the beginning of what, though



10 years of the Tory trying to blame Covid for tanking the Economy and it having nothing to do with the Brexit


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> The slaughter in the med, a 'flaw'


Yes. More than a flaw a disgrace.
So the answer is to rush into the arms of those in favour of brexit?
Because there ain't no black in the Union Jack?
Bollocks to that, the UK alone is far nastier than the wider EU, have you been paying attention to Priti Patel lately?
When that 16 year old perished in the channel did you see the reaction of the Daily Mail readers?
Those who justify brexit in terms of the crisis in the Mediterranean are in my view insincere, and casting around for a way to excuse their stupidity.
Maybe I am in a minority of one on this.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What is over? That the whole of the UK will leave the EU on equal terms as indicated on the voting slip you reference?
> Because you're wrong.
> Deal with it.


Except that's not what I'm saying _at all,_ is it?
It's going to be truly shitty, and especially so for the most disadvantaged part of the UK, and nothing good can come of Brexit (other than Scottish independence and Irish ereunification, and then only indirectly).
But Leave won, there is zero appetite for a second referendum, and that result has to be honoured.
To not do so would have even worse consequences.
The only option left is for Brexit to play out, people to realise how completely they've been stitched up, and (hopefully) for public opinion to significantly shift.
Brecit has happened, and is going to happen, whatever you or I may feel about it.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> So the answer is to rush into the arms of those in favour of brexit?
> Because there ain't no black in the Union Jack?


Stop creating these ridiculous straw men. No one is making the argument that you suggest, and it's simply untrue to say that racism and xenophobia were the core motivations for all of the 17.4 million who voted Leave.
it's these sort of crap debating tactics that contributed so much to the defeat of Remain.


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes. More than a flaw a disgrace.
> So the answer is to rush into the arms of those in favour of brexit?
> Because there ain't no black in the Union Jack?
> Bollocks to that, the UK alone is far nastier than the wider EU, have you been paying attention to Priti Patel lately?
> ...


Suggest the murderous policies of the EU are more than just a case of it having its flaws and you're a Daily Mail reading racist. Desperate stuff.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Stop creating these ridiculous straw men. No one is making the argument that you suggest, and it's simply untrue to say that racism and xenophobia were the core motivations for all of the 17.4 million who voted Leave.
> it's these sort of crap debating tactics that contributed so much to the defeat of Remain.


I am intrigued by your use of the word 'core'.
Are you aware of all the Mail and Express headlines, and the Farage breaking point poster?
Perhaps you would like to suggest what was more central and core to the motivations of brexit voters.
A United Ireland?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> Suggest the murderous policies of the EU are more than just a case of it having its flaws and you're a Daily Mail reading racist. Desperate stuff.


I said a disgrace not a flaw.
Desperate misrepresentation.


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I said a disgrace not a flaw.
> Desperate misrepresentation.


Your words: "Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU" I commented it's more than flawed and you implied I'm a racist and started going on about the Daily Mail. I don't see how I've misrepresented you.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> Your words: "Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU" I commented it's more than flawed and you implied I'm a racist and started going on about the Daily Mail. I don't see how I've misrepresented you.


You said that the Mediterranean crisis was more than a flaw, and I added it was/is a disgrace.
I did not imply you were a racist...unless I suppose you voted for brexit so that_ might_ have been what motivated you, and I don't know how you voted in the referendum so I wouldn't know what you are.


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You said that the Mediterranean crisis was more than a flaw, and I added it was/is a disgrace.
> I did not imply you were a racist...unless I suppose you voted for brexit so that_ might_ have been what motivated you, and I don't know how you voted in the referendum so I wouldn't know what you are.


You appeared to agree with my criticism and then followed it up with this:



			
				philosophical said:
			
		

> So the answer is to rush into the arms of those in favour of brexit?
> Because there ain't no black in the Union Jack?


That reads like implying racism to me. So... you don't know anything about me but responded to me attacking the EU's treatment of refugees by suggesting I might support brexit out of racism.
I did vote to leave the EU.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> You appeared to agree with my criticism and then followed it up with this:
> 
> That reads like implying racism to me. So... you don't know anything about me but responded to me attacking the EU's treatment of refugees by suggesting I might support brexit out of racism.
> I did vote to leave the EU.


Yeah. Followed it up with two questions.
Not two implications.
When you voted to leave the EU what was your plan for the land border in Ireland?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

customs union might have been sensible keeping environmental, and labour standards for what they were.


----------



## editor (Oct 11, 2020)

Brexit looks like delivering for fans of chlorinated chickens!



> An obscure rule is to be used to deny MPs a crucial vote aimed at blocking imports of chlorinated chicken and hormone-fed beef, sparking fresh fears about food quality after Brexit.
> Ministers are facing fierce criticism over their tactic to defeat an attempt to give powers to a new watchdog – amid suspicions that future trade deals, particularly with the US, will water down food and animal welfare standards.












						Anger as ministers use obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on blocking chlorinated chicken
					

Exclusive: Ministers attacked for ‘unbelievable’ tactic to thwart expected Tory revolt to protect food standards




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yeah. Followed it up with two questions.
> Not two implications.
> When you voted to leave the EU what was your plan for the land border in Ireland?


OK you just innocently asked me if I'm a racist in response to me attacking the EU's treatment of refugees  no implication there.
Why would I have a plan for the land border in Ireland? This might surprise you but I don't expect to be consulted during the negotiations.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

I know a handful of lefties locally who voted for Brexit, some of whom have subsequently changed their minds. All the rest voted against it. A very large percentage of right wing Brexiteers locally are overtly nationalistic, quite a few overtly racist. I know people who were disappointed by Brexit because it hasn't stopped immigration from Pakistan, India and Bangladesh (they're also just a tad ignorant). 
Brexit is and was a right-wing enterprise. Nothing more. Nothing less. There was and is nothing democratic about it. So don't let people forget those facts when it all goes to pot.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> OK you just innocently asked me if I'm a racist in response to me attacking the EU's treatment of refugees  no implication there.
> Why would I have a plan for the land border in Ireland? This might surprise you but I don't expect to be consulted during the negotiations.


 The reason I asked why you would have a plan for the land border in Ireland is because you voted for it.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am intrigued by your use of the word 'core'.
> Are you aware of all the Mail and Express headlines, and the Farage breaking point poster?


oh ffs. 
Yes, I am fully aware of those headlines, and that poster. I am _fully_ aware of how the Leave campaign went about getting those votes, and of the propaganda they and their tabloid mates put out. But that doesn't mean that was what was also going on in the minds of voters, as
And - crucially - that _still_ doesn't mean that the 17.4 million who voted to leave were primarily or mostly motivated by racism or xenophobia. They swimply weren't. 
For the Labour heartlands outside the big cities (which is where the campaign was won and lost), it was more of a sense that they felt abandoned and left behind, and that this country was no loger one they had a stake in. They were conned by Leave into believing that that was the fault of the EU.

Here's a quick campaigning heads-up for you; calling all those who disagree with you racists or bigots is an absolutely lousy way of winning therm over to your side. That, and the sneering, patronising tone of Remain campaigners, cost them as much as anything else did.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Brexit is and was a right-wing enterprise. Nothing more. Nothing less. There was and is nothing democratic about it. So don't let people forget those facts when it all goes to pot.


Agreed, but
a) the EU is a 100% neoliberal, capitalist institution, so that makes the EU pretty right wing, It's very difficult for anyone with genuinely progressive po.itics to be that positive about the EU
and
b) in the minds of the 17.4 million who voted for it - and all those millions who voted UKIP in elections between 2010 and 2015 - there was everything democratc about it. What on earth was 'undemocratic' about that referendum?


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The reason I asked why you would have a plan for the land border in Ireland is because you voted for it.


OK, I don't have a plan for the land border in Ireland and to make matters worse I don't have any intention of coming up with one.
(I'm assuming you've now conceded the other point so that's progress)


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The reason I asked why you would have a plan for the land border in Ireland is because you voted for it.


why is it a voter's job to come up with a plan for the Irish border? isn't that precisely what we pay the parliamentarians to do?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh ffs.
> Yes, I am fully aware of those headlines, and that poster. I am _fully_ aware of how the Leave campaign went about getting those votes, and of the propaganda they and their tabloid mates put out. But that doesn't mean that was what was also going on in the minds of voters, as
> And - crucially - that _still_ doesn't mean that the 17.4 million who voted to leave were primarily or mostly motivated by racism or xenophobia. They swimply weren't.
> For the Labour heartlands outside the big cities (which is where the campaign was won and lost), it was more of a sense that they felt abandoned and left behind, and that this country was no loger one they had a stake in. They were conned by Leave into believing that that was the fault of the EU.
> ...



I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
The damage is now done.
The reason I say all that is because general elections are for a relatively short time, brexit is forever.
I am also in a mixed marriage with mixed race children and am hyper-sensitive to the 'ain't no black in the Union Jack' mob.
I believe to say to them they were conned is patronising, anyway they say they knew what they were voting for.
Fuck 'em. I wan't no reconciliation with them, to me there is no compromise with antipathy that arises because of the accident of somebody's birth.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> why is it a voter's job to come up with a plan for the Irish border? isn't that precisely what we pay the parliamentarians to do?


 No. I believe that response is to avoid responsibility for what you voted for. Are you aware that many brexit voters still say they knew what they were voting for, hence my challenge regarding the land border in Ireland.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> OK, I don't have a plan for the land border in Ireland and to make matters worse I don't have any intention of coming up with one.
> (I'm assuming you've now conceded the other point so that's progress)



Was there another point?


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2020)

I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.

From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit.  So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain.  Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole EU.  How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example?  Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.


----------



## Maltin (Oct 11, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.
> 
> From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit.  So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain.  Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU.  How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example?  Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.


You don't have to have known every detail but surely it is not unrealistic to expect at least 1 person out of 17.4 million to have even the slightest idea how any of this was supposed to work before putting a vote to the country.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
> My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
> Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
> If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
> ...


Their vote was *not* a 'sneer at you', however much you may wish to interpret it as that.
In the Labour heartlands, it was _exactly_ as I've explained it - anger at being discarded and left behind by the big cities and the South. It was not a vote driven by racism and xenophobia - or not, primarily, anyway
And unless you begin to understand things from their perspective, you can never hope to get them voting how you want them to in the future. Those voters are ordinary people, just like me and just like you. Some of them live in your street, work in your workplace, drink in your local.

So instead, you are stuck in your political gthetto of writing off 17.4 million voters at thick, ignorant racists and xenophobes. Way to go, chanp. That'll _really_ get you results in the future - Not!


----------



## inva (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Was there another point?


Yes, it was the main thing we were talking about before you maneuvered us onto the Irish border but this seems a good place to stop doesn't it so I'll leave it there.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.
> 
> From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit.  So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain.  Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU.  How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example?  Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.



This is of course rubbish.
Here is the voting slip:


The choice was remain or leave.
Remain was about continuing to participate in the complexities of the EU as previously.
Leave was about change.
With the EU over there and the UK over the other there.
Once you have left somewhere there is some kind of line of demarcation in between usually known as a border.
The word 'leave' is on the ballot paper.
If you vote leave what other interpretation is there that you voted for a line of demarcation?
That 'leave' actually means 'remain'?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I do so love it when I have a page of people arguing with “you are ignoring content from this poster”.
> 
> From context, he is once again banging on about the idea that nobody should have voted Brexit without them having every detail personally worked out for all possible future pathways of Brexit.  So ask him if he had full plans in his mind for all possible future pathways of the EU when he voted remain.  Everything from the way the EU handles its own borders to its plan for a standing army to its fiscal policy and debt-bondage of Greece to its allowance of nearly tax-free headquartering of companies that are then free to trade across the whole a EU.  How was he going to handle the EU’s inability to properly regulate German life insurers, just to pick one random example?  Because apparently you have to know every detail of every ramification when you vote for a principle you’ve been asked to make a decision on.


Certain things were known, though. That the US would be pushing for its lower food standards in a trade deal with the UK, for instance, was known pre-referendum. That the border on the island of Ireland would be a major sticking point was known pre-referendum. That a vote for brexit would empower a certain type of r/w nationalism was being shouted about by many people pre-referendum, and that this would lead to a rise in various forms of racism and xenophobia was also feared by many pre-referendum. 

It's disingenuous to pretend that much of this stuff is any kind of a surprise. It was sadly inevitable.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Certain things were known, though. That the US would be pushing for its lower food standards in a trade deal with the UK, for instance, was known pre-referendum. That the border on the island of Ireland would be a major sticking point was known pre-referendum. That a vote for brexit would empower a certain type of r/w nationalism was being shouted about by many people pre-referendum, and that this would lead to a rise in various forms of racism and xenophobia was also feared by many pre-referendum.
> 
> It's disingenuous to pretend that much of this stuff is any kind of a surprise. It was sadly inevitable.


It was made clear in the many interviews and mail outs during the referendum that a clear option for leaving the EU involved remaining in the EEA.  That was actually suggested as the best, most likely pathway.  If it had been taken, we would not now be facing any of these issues about borders (or, indeed, food standards).  It’s not the fault of those who voted for the principle they were asked to opine on that those who subsequently were tasked with implementing it chose red lines they never actually put forward in the referendum campaign itself.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Their vote was *not* a 'sneer at you', however much you may wish to interpret it as that.
> In the Labour heartlands, it was _exactly_ as I've explained it - anger at being discarded and left behind by the big cities and the South. It was not a vote driven by racism and xenophobia - or not, primarily, anyway
> And unless you begin to understand things from their perspective, you can never hope to get them voting how you want them to in the future. Those voters are ordinary people, just like me and just like you. Some of them live in your street, work in your workplace, drink in your local.
> 
> So instead, you are stuck in your political gthetto of writing off 17.4 million voters at thick, ignorant racists and xenophobes. Way to go, chanp. That'll _really_ get you results in the future - Not!



I am way too old to be bothered with persuading those who jab the finger at me and say 'you lost get over it'.
What is there to understand from that perspective?
I am impressed that you know 'exactly' what was going on. 
I believe I know what was going on too, maybe not as exactly as you.
If I have any part to play now it is to highlight the chite as often as possible so those who say 'you lost get over it' can be countered by my saying 'you won get on with it'.
I accept that this may not seem a conciliatory or wholesome stance to you, but you mentioned the future and my future is all about confrontation I'm afraid.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> Yes, it was the main thing we were talking about before you maneuvered us onto the Irish border but this seems a good place to stop doesn't it so I'll leave it there.


Good.
Bye.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> What on earth was 'undemocratic' about that referendum?


Democracy should be about more than just a show of hands. There should be full, frank, honest, open, well-balanced discussion and debate. If a decision is to be made then it should be clear what happens next, what the consequences are. If we are talking about a UK-wide referendum then we should be clear what will happen when, e.g., Scotland and Northern Ireland vote differently to Wales and England. Then there's the issue of the scope of the franchise, 18 years and over? 16 years and over? Something else? What about UK citizens abroad, permanently or temporarily so? More importantly, what about EU citizens or other recent-ish immigrants over here, our neighbours, living here, working here, with family here, or dependants? Then there's the whole topic of who asks the question, how is it phrased, what does it mean exactly? If the result is close what is the next course of action, more debate, another vote, vote again in 5 years time, 10 years time, never?

That's just off the top of my head. That's enough, surely?


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
> My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
> Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
> If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
> ...


I'd add to my earlier reply to this post; do you realise that the whole approach you're taking here - fuck everyone who didn't agree with me entirely on this issue, they're evil, and they're The Enemy - is just about the most surefire, certain, guaranteed way to ensure you end up on the losing side in *every* political battle you may have in the future?


----------



## Winot (Oct 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Democracy should be about more than just a show of hands. There should be full, frank, honest, open, well-balanced discussion and debate. If a decision is to be made then it should be clear what happens next, what the consequences are. If we are talking about a UK-wide referendum then we should be clear what will happen when, e.g., Scotland and Northern Ireland vote differently to Wales and England. Then there's the issue of the scope of the franchise, 18 years and over? 16 years and over? Something else? What about UK citizens abroad, permanently or temporarily so? More importantly, what about EU citizens or other recent-ish immigrants over here, our neighbours, living here, working here, with family here, or dependants? Then there's the whole topic of who asks the question, how is it phrased, what does it mean exactly? If the result is close what is the next course of action, more debate, another vote, vote again in 5 years time, 10 years time, never?
> 
> That's just off the top of my head. That's enough, surely?



Quite. I’d go further and argue that referendums are fundamentally _undemocratic_ because they force the voters to make an artificial binary choice and then fix the answer in stone without the possibility for post-referendum wiggle room.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I'd add to my earlier reply to this post; do you realise that the whole approach you're taking here - fuck everyone who didn't agree with me entirely on this issue, they're evil, and they're The Enemy - is just about the most surefire, certain, guaranteed way to ensure you end up on the losing side in *every* political battle you may have in the future?



You may be right.
I would (for example) prefer to be on the losing side than have to associate with racists in order to be on the winning side.
Others may see it differently, in fact they do or did, because in order to win the brexit vote you associated yourself with Farage didn't you?
(I don't actually mean you as you, because I don't know which way you voted).
If there is a case to be made that says 'I didn't vote for the Farage bit, but the other bits', then I have yet to hear it, but as a starter for ten one of the other bits was the land border in Ireland.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am absolutely not in the business of winning over brexit voters. It is way too late.
> My preference is for rubbing their noses in the chite they have invoked.
> Their vote was a sneer at me, so I am not in the mood to be the better person, I want to sneer right back at them.
> If brexit voters are uncomfortable about being associated with xenophobia and racism then tough.
> ...





> *Their vote was a sneer at me,*



How could they do this? The bastards.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> How could they do this? The bastards.



I know.
I also know others who feel the same way about the brexit voting bastards too.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> How could they do this? The bastards.



I was also thinking that.

I also have mixed race kids like the poster you’re responding to has mentioned, so interested in this perceived sneering.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Quite. I’d go further and argue that referendums are fundamentally _undemocratic_ because they force the voters to make an artificial binary choice and then fix the answer in stone without the possibility for post-referendum wiggle room.


Some of what has happened since the referendum has been deeply undemocratic. A certain kind of hard brexit has been touted as the only 'true' brexit, with softer options opposed because they don't 'deliver' the referendum result. Sadly Labour was complicit in allowing this line to take hold. 

So anyone who objects to _this brexit_, the one actually happening, none of whose details were in the referendum, and proposes instead, for instance,  not doing it, is widely branded as opposed to democracy, thinking  the proles are thickoes, or whatever. We're locked in to a particularly stupid and destructive and divisive process, and a government that only received a minority of the votes in the election can claim a mandate to do its bidding not only from the election but also from the referendum. 

Dunno about the 17.4 m. But the 12 million or so who voted for Johnson's tories should have a long fucking look at themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

inva said:


> The slaughter in the med, a 'flaw'


Now we'll have a nearer slaughter in the water for which we cannot blame our european friends


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Some of what has happened since the referendum has been deeply undemocratic. A certain kind of hard brexit has been touted as the only 'true' brexit, with softer options opposed because they don't 'deliver' the referendum result. Sadly Labour was complicit in allowing this line to take hold.
> 
> So anyone who objects to _this brexit_, the one actually happening, none of whose details were in the referendum, and proposes instead, for instance,  not doing it, is widely branded as opposed to democracy, thinking  the proles are thickoes, or whatever. We're locked in to a particularly stupid and destructive and divisive process, and a government that only received a minority of the votes in the election can claim a mandate to do its bidding not only from the election but also from the referendum.
> 
> Dunno about the 17.4 m. But the 12 million or so who voted for Johnson's tories should have a long fucking look at themselves.


It's always good to have deeply derivative and much repeated points made like they were in some way worth listening to again


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I was also thinking that.
> 
> I also have mixed race kids like the poster you’re responding to has mentioned, so interested in this perceived sneering.


The notion that people voted for Brexit because of mixed race kids is quite a new one for me


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## brogdale (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Now we'll have a nearer slaughter in the water for which we cannot blame our european friends


Big fortress; little fortress...same shit, a fucking fortress.
Like so much of this shit sandwich "choice"


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Big fortress; little fortress...same shit, a fucking fortress.
> Like so much of this shit sandwich "choice"


Tear down the walls


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You may be right.
> I would (for example) prefer to be on the losing side than have to associate with racists in order to be on the winning side.
> Others may see it differently, in fact they do or did, because in order to win the brexit vote you associated yourself with Farage didn't you?
> (I don't actually mean you as you, because I don't know which way you voted).
> If there is a case to be made that says 'I didn't vote for the Farage bit, but the other bits', then I have yet to hear it, but as a starter for ten one of the other bits was the land border in Ireland.


The argument that one should never, ever support something just because _some_ racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists  (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does *not* mean I am a neoliberal either. But by _your_ argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> How could they do this? The bastards.


I repeat; that's 17.4 million 'bastards'. You will never, _ever_ win their support for _any_ future cause you may wish to fight for by starting from that point.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> The argument that one should never, ever support something just because _some_ racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists  (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
> And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does *not* mean I am a neoliberal either. But by _your_ argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?


Not quite the same argument, though. A racist person might support nationalising industry, but not for racist reasons. Their racism will be incidental to the belief in nationalisation. With brexit, a certain group of racist people voted for it for racist reasons.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> With brexit, a certain group of racist people voted for it for racist reasons.


Sure, but it seems to me that philosophical was arguing that all - or nearly all - of that 17.4 million were motivated mainly by racism or xenophobia, or at the very least were dodgy enough on that issue to not care either way about fellow-travelling with racists. 
I simply don't think that was how it worked at the time.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> The argument that one should never, ever support something just because _some_ racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists  (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
> And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does *not* mean I am a neoliberal either. But by _your_ argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?


He's rocking all over the world


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> He's rocking all over the world



OK, not _that_ status quo


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I repeat; that's 17.4 million 'bastards'. You will never, _ever_ win their support for _any_ future cause you may wish to fight for by starting from that point.


Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug  and  for us to feel their pain.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

Then there was my work colleague who didn't vote because he decided he didn't know enough to make an informed decision. Why should his abstention mean the same as someone who just couldn't be arsed, or someone who couldn't make their mind up for some other reason, or someone functionally illiterate yet intelligent, or someone who forgot? Etc etc. Just because someone abstained does not mean they agree with the result necessarily.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug  and  for us to feel their pain.


Tragically, I can't help thinking that you're right. No bloody wonder Remain lost.


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## The39thStep (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Tragically, I can't help thinking that you're right. No bloody wonder Remain lost.


I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.


yes, that's reasonable - I voted Remain because I felt it was entirely in the working classes interests to remian, and because i knew that a Tory-managed Brecit (as we have, and as was always likely) would be a tool to massively fuck us over.
e2a: yours is pretty much the _only_ reasonable, progressive Leave perspective


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I voted Leave but from a w/class perspective , I'm prepared to discuss the issue with those who voted Remain from a w/class perspective. The others on either side can do one as far as I'm concerned.



Don’t tell him Pike!


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 11, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Don’t tell him Pike!


You're one of the 'others', btw.

hth


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> The argument that one should never, ever support something just because _some_ racists or xenophobes, somewhere might also support it is absolute bollocks. Plenty of xenophobes also beleive public transport and the utilitied should be renationalised. They just believe it for different reasons than those held by socilaists  (for instance). Does that make that renationalisation a bad idea?
> And, FWIW, I voted Remain. That does *not* mean I am a neoliberal either. But by _your_ argument, that means you, having voted Remain, are quite happy to be associated with neoliberals, corporate capitalists all over Europe, and the Status Quo. Are you?



I am happy to be associated with some kind of effort to dilute nationalism.
Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.
I would rather not be associated with the nasty nationalistic foreigner hating brexiters than the alternative. You characterise one side in your terms, i characterise the other side in my terms.
Whether I am right or wrong to do so, the stark fact is that leave won the vote.
I don't see it as some kind of benevolent victory for essentially good people which I am beginning to think you do, nor do I see it as a victory for sections of society who were conned.
I see it as a victory for my enemies.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Agreed but him and other Remainers aren't interested in that they just want to feel morally smug  and  for us to feel their pain.


Don't 'want to' but do.
You certainly don't need to feel my pain, empathy is over rated in some contexts.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am happy to be associated with some kind of effort to dilute nationalism.
> Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.
> I would rather not be associated with the nasty nationalistic foreigner hating brexiters than the alternative. You characterise one side in your terms, i characterise the other side in my terms.
> Whether I am right or wrong to do so, the stark fact is that leave won the vote.
> ...


oh ffs...look, stop inventing motivations, viewpoints and perspectives in me which never, ever existed. It's pathetic.
I don't see it as a'victory' for _anyone_, except the vulture capitalists who are about to well and truly shaft us all. Another reason why I voted....Remain.
But nor do I regard all that 17.4 million as my eternal 'enemies', simply because I know they are not, they are ordinary people just like you and me, and we still have to coexist.
And if we ever want to achieve meaningful,  progressive change in this country, we will need the support of most of that 17.4 million, in order to do so. It's impoosible without it.
I want that change.
Do you? Or do you prefer the warm glow of righteous, morally pure, eternal defeat?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Don't 'want to' but do.
> You certainly don't need to feel my pain, empathy is over rated in some contexts.


Could you stop harping on about your pain, it's really very dull


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh ffs...look, stop inventing motivations, viewpoints and perspectives in me which never, ever existed. It's pathetic.
> I don't see it as a'victory' for _anyone_, except the vulture capitalists who are about to well and truly shaft us all. Another reason why I voted....Remain.
> But nor do I regard all that 17.4 million as my eternal 'enemies', simply because I know they are not, they are ordinary people just like you and me, and we still have to coexist.
> And if we ever want to achieve meaningful,  progressive change in this country, we will need the support of most of that 17.4 million, in order to do so. It's impoosible without it.
> ...



Probably the eternal defeat option.
You mention earlier that work associates (tho I am retired) or neighbours, or those in my locale or pub may well be brexit voters, yet they are people just like me.
Well not quite, they are not just like me because I didn't vote brexit, nor are Tory voters just like me either.
If I interact with somebody face to face and they reveal themselves to be either a brexit voter or a Tory voter I would tell them directly that I feel antipathy towards them and if possible would prefer not to speak to them or have anything to do with them.
If I saw them knocked down in the road by a car or something I would offer to help on that basis, but I would not want to be involved with then according to the other norms of social currency.
To be honest I envy you a little bit, that you have the ability to reconcile yourself to other people, because I suspect that makes you happier than me. However it is identifying enemies that keeps me going, perhaps that is my demon to wrestle with I wouldn't know, I'm not especially religious.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Your labels for remainers satisfy you and bother me less, or certainly bother me less than the alternative presented in that binary choice.


oh ffs....
Are you currently embarked on a bid for a new world record by which the point can be missed?
Let me make it very simple for you, as it is clearly necessary; The EU is - unalterably and unavoidably - a 100% capitalist institution. That is the whole _point_ of it, from its' inception - peace and prosperity through capitalism.
In its' rulebook - the _acquis_, and its' practices, it is also fundamentally neoliberal. 
Therefore, by _all_ of the arguments which _you_ have used on this thread, you are either a neolieral capitalist, or perfectly happy abaout being a fellow-traveller for same. Are you?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Could you stop harping on about your pain, it's really very dull



You are mistaken. I was not the one to invoke the 'pain' concept.
Would you agree that your meaningless intervention is really very dull?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh ffs....
> Are you currently embarked on a bid for a new world record by which the point can be missed?
> Let me make it very simple for you, as it is clearly necessary; The EU is - unalterably and unavoidably - a 100% capitalist institution. That is the whole _point_ of it, from its' inception - peace and prosperity through capitalism.
> In its' rulebook - the _acquis_, and its' practices, it is also fundamentally neoliberal.
> Therefore, by _all_ of the arguments which _you_ have used on this thread, you are either a neolieral capitalist, or perfectly happy abaout being a fellow-traveller for same. Are you?



But it is not the 'whole point'.
It is also about avoiding conflict, reducing the effect of borders, sharing expertise, collaborating and co-operating where possible, working if possible to reduce the negative impact of climate change, offering the chance for people to travel and work and settle with fewer formal restrictions.
If you are suggesting the things I have listed (there are likely to be others I can't think of now) are only possible in a capitalist context then I disagree.
Peace through capitalism is not what I see as going on, but peace through a greater understanding of each other is how I view it.
Would you say that the existence of the Coronavirus reveals the absurdity of the nationalist approach and borders?


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> But it is not the 'whole point'.
> It is also about avoiding conflict, reducing the effect of borders, sharing expertise, collaborating and co-operating where possible, working if possible to reduce the negative impact of climate change, offering the chance for people to travel and work and settle with fewer formal restrictions.
> If you are suggesting the things I have listed (there are likely to be others I can't think of now) are only possible in a capitalist context then I disagree.


The point is; the people who set it up, the people who wrote its' rulebook, and the people who have been in charge of it _at every step of the way, _have *always *seen it as being 100% about capitalism*. *That is the whole point of it, and it has always been ever thus. The other* -* positive and laudable -  things which you mention are merely incidental benefits, and side-effects if you like. They were things to be achieved through capitalism, and the possibility of achieving them via any other route was simply never on the table. It was and is simply inconceivable.
That is _exactly_ what the EU has always been about, from the POV of the particular class of people whose _grand projet_ it has always been*.*
To suggest any different is simply to deny the historical facts of the matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You are mistaken. I was not the one to invoke the 'pain' concept.
> Would you agree that your meaningless intervention is really very dull?


Your pain
Your revulsion at brexit
Are you utterly unable to discuss things when people use different words from those you expressed your views in?

Just stfu about brexit


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Your pain
> Your revulsion at brexit
> Are you utterly unable to discuss things when people use different words from those you expressed your views in?
> 
> Just stfu about brexit



Shut the fuck up talking about brexit on a thread about brexit?
How is that supposed to work?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 11, 2020)

Ain’t no black in the EU flag. Remainers voted to kill black people. Own it.

philosophical is a fucking twat.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Peace through capitalism is not what I see as going on, but peace through a greater understanding of each other is how I view it.


The EU really isn't that, and never has been. That's just simply dripping wet liberal idealistic wank, and yet another reason why liberalism is an irrelevant political creed.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Probably the eternal defeat option.
> You mention earlier that work associates (tho I am retired) or neighbours, or those in my locale or pub may well be brexit voters, yet they are people just like me.
> Well not quite, they are not just like me because I didn't vote brexit, nor are Tory voters just like me either.
> If I interact with somebody face to face and they reveal themselves to be either a brexit voter or a Tory voter I would tell them directly that I feel antipathy towards them and if possible would prefer not to speak to them or have anything to do with them.
> ...


By your logic, anybody who ever disagrees with you on any political issue, ever, is your 'enemy', implacable and eternal.
If you take that to its' logical conclusion. You are going to end up in a very small army, facing a vastly larger one. And losing every time.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> By your logic, anybovdy who ever disagrees with you on any political issue, ever, is your 'enemy', implacable and eternal.
> If you take that to its' logical conclusion. You are going to end up in a very small army, facing a vastly larger one. And losing every time.



Not every disagreement. Mainly Tories and Brexit voters.
I am probably a lot older than you, and I am way beyond reconciliation with Tories and brexit voters. I used to be a person that sought common ground, now I see no reason to.
That you are able to do it is impressive.
I doubt I will ever be part of an army, more a lone sniper type.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Shut the fuck up talking about brexit on a thread about brexit?
> How is that supposed to work?


very simply. find a new hobby horse as you've nothing new to say about this one


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Not every disagreement. Mainly Tories and Brexit voters.
> I am probably a lot older than you, and I am way beyond reconciliation with Tories and brexit voters. I used to be a person that sought common ground, now I see no reason to.
> That you are able to do it is impressive.
> I doubt I will ever be part of an army, more a lone sniper type.


The remainers' anders breivik


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The remainers' anders breivik



Now then.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> very simply. find a new hobby horse as you've nothing new to say about this one



As opposed to having nothing to say at all.
'find a new hobby horse' is a good one. Has anybody ever suggested that you can be a bit of a control freak?


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## Serge Forward (Oct 11, 2020)

To be fair, you are fucking tedious. For the record, I voted remain in that meaningless shambles, but the EU is cack, the UK is cack and you banging on about everybody who didn't vote your way is a massive streaming pile of cack.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> To be fair, you are fucking tedious. For the record, I voted remain in that meaningless shambles, but the EU is cack, the UK is cack and you banging on about everybody who didn't vote your way is a massive streaming pile of cack.


Put me on ignore.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I doubt I will ever be part of an army, more a lone sniper type.


Unfortunately, snipers never, ever win anything worth winning, all by themselves.


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## Supine (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> By your logic, anybody who ever disagrees with you on any political issue, ever, is your 'enemy', implacable and eternal.
> If you take that to its' logical conclusion. You are going to end up in a very small army, facing a vastly larger one. And losing every time.



You could be talking about the far left with that tbh


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Supine said:


> You could be talking about the far left with that tbh


Absolutely. And how they descended into absolute irrelevance


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## NoXion (Oct 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> irradiated produce is gaining widespread acceptance of late in the great satan apparently. they have been pushing it for decades admittedly



What's that got to do with bacteria levels? What's wrong with irradiated produce? You know the process doesn't actually make food radioactive, right?


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## Supine (Oct 11, 2020)

NoXion said:


> What's that got to do with bacteria levels? What's wrong with irradiated produce? You know the process doesn't actually make food radioactive, right?



It kills bacteria


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## Raheem (Oct 11, 2020)

NoXion said:


> What's wrong with irradiated produce?


Well, why does it need to be irradiated?


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 11, 2020)

No, but they use it because the processes and methods of food production which necessitate irradiation are inherently unhealthy, unhygienic, cost-cutting, lacking in care. Who cares if some food product is unsafe? Irradiate it, slosh some chlorine all over it. Sod the fucking environment, fucking food standards, fucking nutrition.


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## two sheds (Oct 11, 2020)

animal welfare standards too  

which you've anyway sort of covered


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> As opposed to having nothing to say at all.
> 'find a new hobby horse' is a good one. Has anybody ever suggested that you can be a bit of a control freak?


You have nothing to say on the subject, you say it often and at great length. As for being a control freak, you're the only person here who has implied becoming a lone wolf assassin might be a means by which a cause you so sully might be advanced. You're the only person here to whom suggestions you've outworn your welcome on this subject appear to come as a surprise. People have been exceeding patient with you over the past several years but maybe now it is time for plain speaking as subtlety so clearly flies high over your head


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## xenon (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What is over? That the whole of the UK will leave the EU on equal terms as indicated on the voting slip you reference?
> Because you're wrong.
> Deal with it.




I mean this in a nnice way. But do you ever actually properly read and comprehend posts made in reply to you. AKA did you miss the fucking obvious irony in Streathamite's post. Did you not read I don't know, any of his previous posts on this matter.

It's just disappointing is all. The comprehension, attention to nuance that seems so lacking.


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## NoXion (Oct 11, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No, but they use it because the processes and methods of food production which necessitate irradiation are inherently unhealthy, unhygienic, cost-cutting, lacking in care. Who cares if some food product is unsafe? Irradiate it, slosh some chlorine all over it. Sod the fucking environment, fucking food standards, fucking nutrition.



I seem to remember racehorse meat in beef lasagne. Banning irradiation didn't do squat to prevent that. That sort of thing is prevented by a strong regulatory system that can resist capture by business interests.



Raheem said:


> Well, why does it need to be irradiated?



For the same reason that preservatives such as salt are added to foods. To improve their shelf-life. Salt has its own problems, but as far as I know irradiation doesn't do anything like that.

It's quite possible in my opinion that the kind of just-in-time distribution model currently in vogue could well pass away this century as events develop. The transition to whatever comes next is liable to be messy. Improving perishability seems a wise idea in such circumstances.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You have nothing to say on the subject, you say it often and at great length. As for being a control freak, you're the only person here who has implied becoming a lone wolf assassin might be a means by which a cause you so sully might be advanced. You're the only person here to whom suggestions you've outworn your welcome on this subject appear to come as a surprise. People have been exceeding patient with you over the past several years but maybe now it is time for plain speaking as subtlety so clearly flies high over your head


Agreed. I think Brexit is a national catastrophe, but the Remainiacs have become a massive pain in the arse, as bad in their way of the brexiteer ultras of c. 2015-2016. Of all the hills you could choose to die on, the EU should be pretty much the last choice for anyone on the left.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You have nothing to say on the subject, you say it often and at great length. As for being a control freak, you're the only person here who has implied becoming a lone wolf assassin might be a means by which a cause you so sully might be advanced. You're the only person here to whom suggestions you've outworn your welcome on this subject appear to come as a surprise. People have been exceeding patient with you over the past several years but maybe now it is time for plain speaking as subtlety so clearly flies high over your head


Bollocks.
Lone sniper means lone wolf assassin to you when I used it in the context of not being part of an army.
Not only are you a control freak you post as if you're a spokesperson for the people.
What did you do, conduct a survey?  'people have been....' no less!
As the self appointed master or mistress of ceremonies here why don't you take my advice and put me on ignore. You can instruct everybody else to do the same
it might feed your megalomaniacal tendencies.
Crack on.


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

xenon said:


> I mean this in a nnice way. But do you ever actually properly read and comprehend posts made in reply to you. AKA did you miss the fucking obvious irony in Streathamite's post. Did you not read I don't know, any of his previous posts on this matter.
> 
> It's just disappointing is all. The comprehension, attention to nuance that seems so lacking.



Is there some kind of nuance in a plain choice between leave or remain? I don't think so, there are consequences. What I think frustrates others is that there are different opinions as to what motivated the leave vote. My opinion being merely one of them and streathamite's merely being another.
I am not as desperate as some others for acknowledgement as to my or their rightness or wrongness, I am more interested now in the consequences. Yes like the land border and the uptick in racist comments and abuse experienced by people I know since the vote amongst other things.
I will leave it to others to apply their faux expertise regarding the interplay between capitalism, or alt rightism or the conning of the ordinary person or whatever, and I won't dig them out for their musings.
Now crack on and judge some more.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks.
> Lone sniper means lone wolf assassin to you when I used it in the context of not being part of an army.
> Not only are you a control freak you post as if you're a spokesperson for the people.
> What did you do, conduct a survey?  'people have been....' no less!
> ...


You really are both over-reacting, and misrepresenting what Pickmans has said here, to top off your frequent misrepresenting of what I posted.
Ther's nothing control freak about what Pickman's has posted.
There is a serious politicla difference between Pickmans and I; he's an anarchist, I am a socialist.
Howver,  we have two common grounds that are interlinked; 1) class struggle 2) the importance of collectivist action to achieve common goals.
Neither of these seem to even slightly register with you.
That makes your politics deeply reactionary, which explains your misreading of what the EU actually _is_.


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## Streathamite (Oct 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Not only are you a control freak you post as if you're a spokesperson for the people.
> What did you do, conduct a survey?  'people have been....' no less!


No, he's just _read the f-ing thread,_ ffs!


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## philosophical (Oct 11, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> You really are both over-reacting, and misrepresenting what Pickmans has said here, to top off your frequent misrepresenting of what I posted.
> Ther's nothing control freak about what Pickman's has posted.
> There is a serious politicla difference between Pickmans and I; he's an anarchist, I am a socialist.
> Howver,  we have two common grounds that are interlinked; 1) class struggle 2) the importance of collectivist action to achieve common goals.
> ...


I am afraid you're wrong.
Indeed it was you who alluded to me being part of a very small army to which I likened myself as more likely to be a lone sniper.
Remember?
So over the hill rides pickmans model invoking Anders Brevik and lone 'assassin', and he or she is not misrepresenting?
You seem to be tuned in to your definition as to what is misrepresentation but conveniently sidestep it when practiced by him.
I would've thought a Socialist approach would be to treat equals equally. Your differentiating approach does not seem to chime with collectivist action to me.


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## gosub (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Nuclear option, don't fucking leave the EU.
> Yeah there are flaws regarding the EU, but there are no benefits in leaving, none.
> Oh hang on it pleases those who sing #two world wars and one world cup, there ain't no black in the Union Jack#.


It has been a utterly squandered opportunity I grant you


philosophical said:


> I am afraid you're wrong.
> Indeed it was you who alluded to me being part of a very small army to which I likened myself as more likely to be a lone sniper.
> Remember?
> So over the hill rides pickmans model invoking Anders Brevik and lone 'assassin', and he or she is not misrepresenting?
> ...


Hiroo Onoda


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks.
> Lone sniper means lone wolf assassin to you when I used it in the context of not being part of an army.
> Not only are you a control freak you post as if you're a spokesperson for the people.
> What did you do, conduct a survey?  'people have been....' no less!
> ...


Yeh. A sniper not part of an army is a lone assassin. You do know what snipers do, I suppose, so you know what you're suggesting here.
You can harp on about control freakery till you're blue in the face but you will yet learn that repeatedly saying something is so doesn't magically make it it true.
I speak for myself but a perusal of any thread on Europe to which you contribute finds your broken record style condemned.
I could instruct people to put you on ignore. Or you could find something dare I say interesting to say on the subject. Or you could stfu. My preferred option is 3, because I don't think you have the wherewithal for 2 and I'm not going to do what you say which rules out 1


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I seem to remember racehorse meat in beef lasagne. Banning irradiation didn't do squat to prevent that. That sort of thing is prevented by a strong regulatory system that can resist capture by business interests.


That's the nub of this particular question. Irradiation, GM technology, chemical food production - it's all wanted by business interests, who don't want a strong regulatory system. 
As regards horsemeat, true, irradiation didn't do squat to prevent that. Neither did seat belt regulation, or the invention of traffic lights.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. A sniper not part of an army is a lone assassin. You do know what snipers do, I suppose, so you know what you're suggesting here.
> You can harp on about control freakery till you're blue in the face but you will yet learn that repeatedly saying something is so doesn't magically make it it true.
> I speak for myself but a perusal of any thread on Europe to which you contribute finds your broken record style condemned.
> I could instruct people to put you on ignore. Or you could find something dare I say interesting to say on the subject. Or you could stfu. My preferred option is 3, because I don't think you have the wherewithal for 2 and I'm not going to do what you say which rules out 1


Disingenuous bollocks from the megalomaniacal control freak.
'I speak for myself but.....' I seek validation from my imagined 'army' of acolytes.
BTW an assassin often kills where a sniper acts alone and may or may not kill, still you had the glorious dressing of calling me an Anders Brevik which probably excited you enough to get through a whole box of tissues.
If what I say does not interest you, or irritate you so much, you have the option to put me on ignore, and as for tired unfunny broken records your regular references to the South Atlantic are as tedious and boring as anything else on here posted by anybody.


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## Artaxerxes (Oct 12, 2020)

Snipers tend to be viewed as a bit strange, they also tend to have accidents far more often when captured by the enemy.

Nobody really likes snipers unless they are exceptionally charismatic.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

I doubt they're trying to win a popularity contest, more likely they are attracted to autonomy.


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## NoXion (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> That's the nub of this particular question. Irradiation, GM technology, chemical food production - it's all wanted by business interests, who don't want a strong regulatory system.



All food production is chemical. Food is _made_ of chemicals. Irradiation kills pathogens and prolongs shelf life without adding a whole bunch of salt, which would effect the flavour. Genetic modification has many more applications.

Focusing on and/or banning particular methods; or even more extreme, dismissing an entire field of applied biotechnology as mere profit-seeking, as you appear to be doing, is missing the fucking point.


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## NoXion (Oct 12, 2020)

Let's ban pasteurisation, it's just a way for Big Milk to sell more and increase their profits.


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## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 12, 2020)

NoXion said:


> even more extreme, dismissing an entire field of applied biotechnology as mere profit-seeking, as you appear to be doing, is missing the fucking point.


No it's not. (Oh yes it is). GM technology is controlled by people whose sole interest is making money. They're not bothered about feeding the world, improving nutrition in poor countries, protecting the environment or any of that stuff. They want money, power and control. 
As a technology GM may have its uses, but you only have to look at how industrialised agriculture is destroying societies around the world, impacting biodiversity, ruining soil fertility etc etc to see how GM will be used in the future. Not to the benefit of humanity or the planet.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2020)

NoXion said:


> What's that got to do with bacteria levels? What's wrong with irradiated produce? You know the process doesn't actually make food radioactive, right?


That's not the point. Not the point with chlorinating chicken either. The reason these processes are needed in the US is because standards further back in the process are so low that they cannot guarantee food safety without them.

And how is that going to affect us? Well its first and most important effect is to undercut those who don't need these processes. Allowing cheap US chlorinated chicken in to the UK without any kind of tariff creates a huge pressure on UK producers to follow suit and lower their standards as well, except that would mean not being able to export to places with higher standards, such as the EU. It's a really crap thing to happen to us, and if it happens it will be a very concrete example of Brexit fucking with UK producers.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

My understanding is that in the USA they can treat animals any old how because they can clean what's left of them after slaughter by washing the remains in chlorine.
From my vegetarian point of view behaviour like that is an expected progression in the life of a carnivore.
Maybe not consuming animals would be the best answer.
The so called better EU standards still ultimately lead to death.
This part of the debate looks like hypocrisy from the meat eaters.


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> My understanding is that in the USA they can treat animals any old how because they can clean what's left of them after slaughter by washing the remains in chlorine.
> From my vegetarian point of view behaviour like that is an expected progression in the life of a carnivore.
> Maybe not consuming animals would be the best answer.
> The so called better EU standards still ultimately lead to death.
> This part of the debate looks like hypocrisy from the meat eaters.


That's a pretty stupid argument. All meat eating is wrong, therefore all meat production is equally evil? That's clearly not true.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

The end product of all types of meat production is death isn't it?


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## littlebabyjesus (Oct 12, 2020)

... and that's the only thing that matters. 

Will stop with you there. There isn't really a discussion to be had, is there?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The end product of all types of meat production is death isn't it?


in the long run we're all dead
--keynes


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## two sheds (Oct 12, 2020)

so you don't want all these animals to be born at all and have no life?


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## Raheem (Oct 12, 2020)

If you're going to kill them one day, may as well torture them from birth.


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## NoXion (Oct 12, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No it's not. (Oh yes it is). GM technology is controlled by people whose sole interest is making money.



As is a great deal of food production on this planet. That's the fundamental problem. Industrialised agriculture has the power to feed everyone decent food in good quantity, but we get the crap version because capital is the controlling interest, not people.

It would be the crap version with _or_ without GM, irradiation, pasteurisation etc. It's not sustainable in its current form and adjustments will be made no matter what. I'd like to think that a push for a more democratic mode of production won't hamstring itself in the face of the coming challenges.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Disingenuous bollocks from the megalomaniacal control freak.
> 'I speak for myself but.....' I seek validation from my imagined 'army' of acolytes.
> BTW an assassin often kills where a sniper acts alone and may or may not kill, still you had the glorious dressing of calling me an Anders Brevik which probably excited you enough to get through a whole box of tissues.
> If what I say does not interest you, or irritate you so much, you have the option to put me on ignore, and as for tired unfunny broken records your regular references to the South Atlantic are as tedious and boring as anything else on here posted by anybody.


i have the option to put you on ignore. you have the option to shut the fuck up or to post something original and thought-provoking. i'm not putting you on ignore as i wonder whether you'll ever manage to post something novel.

if you're going to describe yourself as a remainer sniper, a lone wolf no less, you shouldn't be surprised if someone takes you up on the description.

but wolves are generally sociable animals so i can only presume you've bored the rest of the pack to death.

btw i find nothing about you remotely exciting. my tissues remain in their box.


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## andysays (Oct 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a pretty stupid argument. All meat eating is wrong, therefore all meat production is equally evil? That's clearly not true.


At least he's consistent.


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## gosub (Oct 12, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Let's ban pasteurisation, it's just a way for Big Milk to sell more and increase their profits.


Sounds a bit French to me


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## gosub (Oct 12, 2020)

andysays said:


> At least he's consistent.


Hitler was consistent. It's not necessarily a virtue


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## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I said a disgrace not a flaw.
> Desperate misrepresentation.


We can read your posts you know. Even us thick leave voters can see your blatant lies.


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## Streathamite (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am afraid you're wrong.
> Indeed it was you who alluded to me being part of a very small army to which I likened myself as more likely to be a lone sniper.
> Remember?
> So over the hill rides pickmans model invoking Anders Brevik and lone 'assassin', and he or she is not misrepresenting?
> ...


oh fuck, I give up. You've missed the point by too large a margin to be bothered with. Life's too short. Are you _really_ this thick?


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## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> I was also thinking that.
> 
> I also have mixed race kids like the poster you’re responding to has mentioned, so interested in this perceived sneering.


Was I sneering at my own mixed race kids when I voted leave then?


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i have the option to put you on ignore. you have the option to shut the fuck up or to post something original and thought-provoking. i'm not putting you on ignore as i wonder whether you'll ever manage to post something novel.
> 
> if you're going to describe yourself as a remainer sniper, a lone wolf no less, you shouldn't be surprised if someone takes you up on the description.
> 
> ...



Somebody said don't knock masturbation, it's sex with somebody I love. You probably get off marvelling at what you think are devastating witticisms or put downs, and I imagine your monologue goes 'pickmans babe, what _are _you like, legend!' as you reach for the bog paper.
I have never once likened myself to a wolf, that's your personal projection once again.
Your opinion as to originality or thought provoking is possibly something you could manage yourself first before demanding it of others.


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## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh fuck, I give up. You've missed the point by too large a margin to be bothered with. Life's too short. Are you _really_ this thick?


He is really that thick and has no self awareness of this salient fact. Perhaps he is Gavin Barwell in real life?


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh fuck, I give up. You've missed the point by too large a margin to be bothered with. Life's too short. Are you _really_ this thick?


Are you really a judge?
You and I do have one thing in common, we're both opinionated.
I hope that doesn't come across as judging you as you judge and indeed subsequently label others.
Well done for giving up.


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## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> He is really that thick and has no self awareness of this salient fact. Perhaps he is Gavin Barwell in real life?


You voted brexit! And yet you go on about self awareness!
However thick you judge me to be is as nothing compared to your action.
How's Nige? Is Stephen Yakitty Lookatme your mate?


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## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You voted brexit! And yet you go on about self awareness!
> However thick you judge me to be is as nothing compared to your action.
> How's Nige? Is Stephen Yakitty Lookatme your mate?


Not Gavin B. Even more stupid.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Somebody said don't knock masturbation, it's sex with somebody I love. You probably get off marvelling at what you think are devastating witticisms or put downs, and I imagine your monologue goes 'pickmans babe, what _are _you like, legend!' as you reach for the bog paper.
> I have never once likened myself to a wolf, that's your personal projection once again.
> Your opinion as to originality or thought provoking is possibly something you could manage yourself first before demanding it of others.


even in your insults you're disappointingly repetitive. i'll be honest with you, i have never found anything i consider a witticism or put-down here exciting enough to consider wanking over. that such a thought has crossed your mind reveals rather more than you might have liked to show, and none of it to your advantage. it goes a long way towards explaining your dreary posts about brexit, tho, if - as i now suspect - the lack of imagination in your posts about brexit extends to your behaviour in the bedroom. 

wr2 to the wolf, you said you weren't an army but a lone sniper. a lone sniper also known as a lone wolf. any mental agility you had seems to have evaporated. 

as to originality, after more than four years of you posting the same small repertoire of arguments which weren't persuasive when you embarked on your bore-a-thon i'd have thought even you would find them a tad tarnished. you haven't even tried to say 'perhaps it's dull but at least i'm right', indicating that you haven't sufficient faith in your convictions to try to throw them in my face.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> oh fuck, I give up. You've missed the point by too large a margin to be bothered with. Life's too short. Are you _really_ this thick?


the difference between genius and stupidity is genius has its limits. i don't think we're anywhere near seeing the depths philosophical's stupidity descends to.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not Gavin B. Even more stupid.



I've _met_ Gavin barwell (down your way, unsurprisingly), and yes, he's thick!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> even in your insults you're disappointingly repetitive. i'll be honest with you, i have never found anything i consider a witticism or put-down here exciting enough to consider wanking over. that such a thought has crossed your mind reveals rather more than you might have liked to show, and none of it to your advantage. it goes a long way towards explaining your dreary posts about brexit, tho, if - as i now suspect - the lack of imagination in your posts about brexit extends to your behaviour in the bedroom.
> 
> wr2 to the wolf, you said you weren't an army but a lone sniper. a lone sniper also known as a lone wolf. any mental agility you had seems to have evaporated.
> 
> as to originality, after more than four years of you posting the same small repertoire of arguments which weren't persuasive when you embarked on your bore-a-thon i'd have thought even you would find them a tad tarnished. you haven't even tried to say 'perhaps it's dull but at least i'm right', indicating that you haven't sufficient faith in your convictions to try to throw them in my face.


Ha ha. So you consider yourself to be a purveyor of witticisms and put downs. I was right about that, even if you declare you don't wank yourself into a stupor of self congratulation.
I have my doubts about that as you and others here seem desperate for some kind of validation.
Witticisms and put downs.
Crack on.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 12, 2020)

Proper broken record territory. Again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Ha ha. So you consider yourself to be a purveyor of witticisms and put downs. I was right about that


no, you weren't

that i think that several times over the past seventeen years i have posted things i consider witticisms or put-downs doesn't make me a purveyor of them. you are a purveyor of pococurantism, you operate an emporium of ennui. and that nobody can deny.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no, you weren't
> 
> that i think that several times over the past seventeen years i have posted things i consider witticisms or put-downs doesn't make me a purveyor of them. you are a purveyor of pococurantism, you operate an emporium of ennui. and that nobody can deny.



Dicks on the table time now is it?
Well you can put yours on the slab and measure it against the length of words your Thesauras unearths, I don't feel your kind of urges to play that game.
Crack on with your self declared witticisms and put downs. Your superciliousness is probably some kind of therapy for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Dicks on the table time now is it?
> Well you can put yours on the slab and measure it against the length of words your Thesauras unearths, I don't feel your kind of urges to play that game.
> Crack on with your self declared witticisms and put downs. Your superciliousness is probably some kind of therapy for you.


say what you want. your words cannot hurt me.


philosophical said:


> purveyor


there is no way back from introducing the word 'purveyor' into a thread

it is the mark of the no-mark


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> say what you want. your words cannot hurt me.
> there is no way back from introducing the word 'purveyor' into a thread
> 
> it is the mark of the no-mark



There is no way back from declaring you are witty and capable of put downs on a thread.
What next? 'I am a people person'? 'I am handsome'? 'I am generous to a fault?'


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> There is no way back from declaring you are witty and capable of put downs on a thread.
> What next? 'I am a people person'? 'I am handsome'? 'I am generous to a fault?'


jesus you've the memory of a fucking goldfish

you didn't declare me witty and capable of put downs on a thread, let me remind you what you actually said:


philosophical said:


> Ha ha. So you consider yourself to be a purveyor of witticisms and put downs. I was right about that, even if you declare you don't wank yourself into a stupor of self congratulation.
> I have my doubts about that as you and others here seem desperate for some kind of validation.
> Witticisms and put downs.
> Crack on.



you're not a people person, you're a tedious cunt


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus you've the memory of a fucking goldfish
> 
> you didn't declare me witty and capable of put down on a thread, let me remind you what you actually said:
> 
> ...



Ha ha.
You wrote that over the past seventeen years you have written things you consider to be witty or a put down.
Marking your own homework.
Call me a tedious cunt by all means, but it is more telling that you call yourself witty.
That is certainly what wankers do, and seemingly it's cunts like me that cause pricks like you to stand to attention.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 12, 2020)

stop


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Ha ha.
> You wrote that over the past seventeen years you have written things you consider to be witty or a put down.
> Marking your own homework.
> Call me a tedious cunt by all means, but it is more telling that you call yourself witty.


careful readers will have noticed i didn't call myself witty. people who were actually paying attention will have seen i said that several times over 17 years i'd said things i considered witticisms. there's rather a difference





> That is certainly what wankers do, and seemingly it's cunts like me that cause pricks like you to stand to attention.


the best line you've ever come out with here

and it's nicked off someone else

you've given up on your repetitive brexit posts at least, that's a blessing. just onto a different sort of dull bleats now.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> There is no way back from declaring you are witty and capable of put downs on a thread.
> What next? 'I am a people person'? 'I am handsome'? 'I am generous to a fault?'


You are a disingenuous cunt.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are a disingenuous cunt.


You voted brexit so I suppose that makes you a bit of an expert on cuntishness.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> careful readers will have noticed i didn't call myself witty. people who were actually paying attention will have seen i said that several times over 17 years i'd said things i considered witticisms. there's rather a differencethe best line you've ever come out with here
> 
> and it's nicked off someone else
> 
> you've given up on your repetitive brexit posts at least, that's a blessing. just onto a different sort of dull bleats now.


Ha ha.
'...people who were actually paying attention...'
What are you going for next?
The court of public opinion?
As I have suggested several times, if what I write bothers you so much put me on ignore, then you can imagine the remaining posters on urban75 as fans of your 'witticisms'.
What a self regarding freak you're turning out to be.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You voted brexit so I suppose that makes you a bit of an expert on cuntishness.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2020)

Whoever said it was impossible to make a thread about Brexit tedious?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Ha ha.
> '...people who were actually paying attention...'
> What are you going for next?
> The court of public opinion?
> ...


sound and fury, signifying nothing


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2020)

Not a Brexit news day today, is it?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> sound and fury, signifying nothing


 Thou tongue outvenoms all the worms of Nile.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You voted brexit so I suppose that makes you a bit of an expert on cuntishness.


I can spot a bigoted thick remainer cunt (like you) from a long way off.


----------



## campanula (Oct 12, 2020)

As a rule, I tend not to post personal insults on these boards. I don't much do it regarding people I actually know (apart from my ingrate offspring) because it is a poor debating position and achieves nothing apart from increasing nastiness..and definitely try not to fling shit in the direction of total strangers. Now, for all sorts of reasons, I voted leave (but mostly because of a despairing belief that the EU, as a supra-state, is not any sort of benevolent entity). And back when I did, a transformative political change seemed entirely possible. Of course, I have been chastened for my naivety - not least by a vitriolic and consistent attack on the mildly radical Corbyn platform, (which only underscored the laughable idea of representational politics and an enfeebled democracy) but also by the hatefully divisive and brutal tactics of a political elite. I find I have no appetite whatsoever in defending my position against entrenched assumptions based on flimsy accusations of racism (from idiots)...but am bloody grateful that my eyes have been fully opened. For the likes of me, my friends, neighbours, family and community,  the only positions we can usefully take involves a truly bottom-up, grassroots organising and activism. I really have no fucks to give about borders, Brexit or international trade but have time and energy to stand around shaming some shitting estate agents and landlords as a member of my local renters union (Acorn).


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Thou tongue outvenoms all the worms of Nile.


you're not so keen now on discussing brexit, despite several invitations to return to topic. no surprise there


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Dicks on the table time now is it?
> Well you can put yours on the slab and measure it against the length of words your Thesauras unearths, I don't feel your kind of urges to play that game.
> Crack on with your self declared witticisms and put downs. Your superciliousness is probably some kind of therapy for you.



Marty1 likes this.

End of.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I can spot a bigoted thick remainer cunt (like you) from a long way off.



I'm not such a long way off.
I can spot an ally of Nigel Farage, the Tories and Stephen Yakitty Lookatme brexit voter from quite close.
Especially you as you have declared you voted with them.
Enjoy your new bedfellows as you make your brexit work.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I'm not such a long way off.
> I can spot an ally of Nigel Farage, the Tories and Stephen Yakitty Lookatme brexit voter from quite close.
> Especially you as you have declared you voted with them.
> Enjoy your new bedfellows as you make your brexit work.


Do you have many teeth?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I'm not such a long way off.
> I can spot an ally of Nigel Farage, the Tories and Stephen Yakitty Lookatme brexit voter from quite close.
> Especially you as you have declared you voted with them.
> Enjoy your new bedfellows as you make your brexit work.


i see you hold with the 'it's better to pipe up and prove yourself a fool' brigade

surely we went through all this guilt by association bit back in 2016 when you were calling all and sundry racists whether they'd voted leave or remain. maybe now it is four years later you could consider moving on.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Thou tongue outvenoms all the worms of Nile.


At the risk of everyone falling out over Middle English grammar as well, it's "thy".


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> At the risk of everyone falling out over Middle English grammar as well, it's "thy".


oh well spotted

but it's not middle english


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2020)

I just wanted to be controversial.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 12, 2020)

Thy: From Middle English _thy_, _thi_, apocopated variants of Middle English _thine_, _thyn_, _thin_, from Old English _þīn_, from Proto-Germanic _*þīnaz_, from Proto-Indo-European _*téynos_ (“thy; thine”), from Proto-Indo-European _*túh₂_ (“thou”). See thou. 





__





						thy - Wiktionary
					






					en.wiktionary.org


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 12, 2020)

..


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you're not so keen now on discussing brexit, despite several invitations to return to topic. no surprise there



OK brexit.
I wonder at which point we will diverge (although I suppose it is a given that we think of each other as cunts).
Your mate streathamite says what he or she has in common with you is a belief in class action.
Yet the line streathamite seems to have taken is that the pissed off were conned into brexit by mendacious forces who encourged them to blame the EU for the things that pissed them off. A great con if you like.
It is almost the Jesus position 'forgive them Lord for they know not what they do'.
So the next move is to build some kind of coalition or alliance to enable the pissed off dispossessed downtrodden class to fight back and build an ideal socialist future.
I think it is way too late for that.
All in the context that the brexit battle is over, and anyway politicians are paid to sort out the awkward details like (yes you guessed it) the Irish border and all the other stuff, and we need not be concerned any more about those details trust the state to be across all that.
Any divergence yet?
My approach is different.
I feel that to intimate to brexit voters that they were conned and didn't know what they were voting for is patronising. My stance is that brexit voters knew full well what they were voting for, that I think they are cunts for doing so, but that they won and should get on with it and own the problems and come up with the solutions.
People say that it is not reasonable to expect brexit voters to solve the problems they create. Yet some of them try with flaccid suggestions like the following.
We will have WTO rules, a deal, a border in the Irish Sea, an Australian Style immigration system, lorry parks in various places, no deal, it the EU want a border in Ireland then they can set it up, and a host of other wanky ideas say some of the Brexit winners. All the time the evil rich get more evil and more rich off the back of the chaos.
My response to all that is go on then, you won, make it happen if you can. My personal background noise is to be awkward, uncooperative and to heckle them as cunts every step of the way.
I certainly won't be saying there there poor thing, you didn't know what you were doing and deserve forgiveness and understanding. I am more likely to say you cunts have cleared the way for corrupt nationalistic reactionary racist forces.
I expect brexit voters to say something along the lines of 'so what? Tough if you don't like the rise of the far right because we fucking won!'

There you go, something to criticise and deconstruct to your hearts content. Don't forget the witticisms, the long words, the quotes from Shakespeare and the personal insults along the way.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do you have many teeth?



If you're suggesting violence I live in Lewisham. Where and when do you suggest?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 12, 2020)

ffs. stop. post up some kitten pics or something


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> At the risk of everyone falling out over Middle English grammar as well, it's "thy".


Depends on which folio.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> OK brexit.
> I wonder at which point we will diverge (although I suppose it is a given that we think of each other as cunts).
> Your mate streathamite says what he or she has in common with you is a belief in class action.
> Yet the line streathamite seems to have taken is that the pissed off were conned into brexit by mendacious forces who encourged them to blame the EU for the things that pissed them off. A great con if you like.
> ...


Yes, i recognise all that from your early posts on urban and there's nothing new there at all


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2020)

Not wishing to inflame this thread diversion any further, but I am reminded of this classic tweet...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, i recognise all that from your early posts on urban and there's nothing new there at all



Your challenge was to talk about brexit.
I have done so.
Nobody has anything particularly 'new' to say because it was a binary choice which now seems to be set in stone.
You seem to have nothing to say whatsoever, new or old.


----------



## andysays (Oct 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not a Brexit news day today, is it?


Funnily enough

Brexit: Time for trade deal getting short, PM warns


> Boris Johnson has been clear with the EU that the time left to get a post-Brexit trade deal in place is in "short supply", Downing Street says. The prime minister has set a deadline of this Thursday, after which he has said the UK is ready to "walk away".


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> OK brexit.
> I wonder at which point we will diverge (although I suppose it is a given that we think of each other as cunts).
> Your mate streathamite says what he or she has in common with you is a belief in class action.
> Yet the line streathamite seems to have taken is that the pissed off were conned into brexit by mendacious forces who encourged them to blame the EU for the things that pissed them off. A great con if you like.
> ...



What do you hope to achieve by heckling leavers as cunts?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 12, 2020)

andysays said:


> Funnily enough
> 
> Brexit: Time for trade deal getting short, PM warns


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Your challenge was to talk about brexit.
> I have done so.
> Nobody has anything particularly 'new' to say because it was a binary choice which now seems to be set in stone.
> You seem to have nothing to say whatsoever, new or old.


jesus mary and joseph 

this thread is "the post-brexit trade deal and transition period" thread

not the "let's post shite that was dull in 2016" thread. 

i have fucking dozens of posts in this thread concentrating on the topic, on the post-brexit deal and transition period. 

you seem strangely reluctant to discuss this aspect of the brexit clusterfuck but very happy to refight the battles of yesteryear


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

andysays said:


> Funnily enough
> 
> Brexit: Time for trade deal getting short, PM warns



Possibly some of the earliest consequences of the UK walking away might be an enforced no fly zone (has that been sorted?) or for an EU state to stop supplying 70% of the electricity Northern Ireland needs because that needs an agreement doesn't it?
One must hope for massive delays at borders because paperwork and checks need to happen, and the EHIC system falls apart as brexit voters wished for.
Well many still say they knew what they were voting for, and the UK will have full knowledge of EU rules because the UK previously played a full part in creating them.
Brexit voters can be pleased with no deal because along with their friend Dominic Cummings they can bleat that from crisis comes opportunity.
I hope they get the crisis they voted for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What do you hope to achieve by heckling leavers as cunts?


what do you hope to achieve by posting?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus mary and joseph
> 
> this thread is "the post-brexit trade deal and transition period" thread
> 
> ...


In the main your 'fucking dozens of posts' on this thread are one line reactions to others.
Maybe you can point me in the direction of your 'new' stuff.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> What do you hope to achieve by heckling leavers as cunts?


Letting off steam, and hopefully getting through to one or two of them that somebody somewhere still thinks they are cunts if they think all the fuss has died down.
Not a world shattering achievement but it'll have to do for now.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Letting off steam, and hopefully getting through to one or two of them that somebody somewhere still thinks they are cunts if they think all the fuss has died down.
> Not a world shattering achievement but it'll have to do for now.



Fair enough but don’t let it devour you.  Regardless of your position, Brexit hysteria that is pumped out through the media 24/7 is a poor media diet of grim imo.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Fair enough but don’t let it devour you.  Regardless of your position, Brexit hysteria that is pumped out through the media 24/7 is a poor media diet of grim imo.



I am old. Grim is my stock in trade these days.
Mind you there might be an interesting diversion from TopCat who enquired about my remaining teeth.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> In the main your 'fucking dozens of posts' on this thread are one line reactions to others.
> Maybe you can point me in the direction of your 'new' stuff.


you criticise the form.

i criticise the content.

do you see the difference?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am old. Grim The same auld bollocks is my stock in trade these days.
> Mind you there might be an interesting diversion from TopCat who enquired about my remaining teeth.


more accurate


----------



## andysays (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Possibly some of the earliest consequences of the UK walking away might be an enforced no fly zone (has that been sorted?) or for an EU state to stop supplying 70% of the electricity Northern Ireland needs because that needs an agreement doesn't it?
> One must hope for massive delays at borders because paperwork and checks need to happen, and the EHIC system falls apart as brexit voters wished for.
> Well many still say they knew what they were voting for, and the UK will have full knowledge of EU rules because the UK previously played a full part in creating them.
> Brexit voters can be pleased with no deal because along with their friend Dominic Cummings they can bleat that from crisis comes opportunity.
> I hope they get the crisis they voted for.


I can quite easily picture you rubbing your hands together with glee at the lights going out across NI, massive delays at borders and shortages of essential goods in the shops.

You're apparently quite happy for any amount of suffering to result, merely so that you can point the finger of blame at Leave voters and say "I told you so".


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you criticise the form.
> 
> i criticise the content.
> 
> do you see the difference?


Well if you think your posts on this matter contains new content then prove it. I can't see any.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

andysays said:


> I can quite easily picture you rubbing your hands together with glee at the lights going out across NI, massive delays at borders and shortages of essential goods in the shops.
> 
> You're apparently quite happy for any amount of suffering to result, merely so that you can point the finger of blame at Leave voters and say "I told you so".


i don't suppose it's his hands he's rubbing with glee


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> more accurate


...and you moan about my posts not discussing brexit, yet this is what you manage.
Perhaps if you risked saying _something, _anything actually, containing your own 'new' reflections on brexit you might begin to slither towards interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Well if you think your posts on this matter contains new content then prove it. I can't see any.


i don't need to prove it. it's home time and i'm not hanging around to bandy words with a loon, ie you.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

andysays said:


> I can quite easily picture you rubbing your hands together with glee at the lights going out across NI, massive delays at borders and shortages of essential goods in the shops.
> 
> You're apparently quite happy for any amount of suffering to result, merely so that you can point the finger of blame at Leave voters and say "I told you so".


Nailed it. Although it wouldn't be glee but unsurprised resignation.
Yes I would be glad to highlight the suffering because nothing else has worked in terms of reasoned argument from any quarter.
Maybe if there is enough suffering it would put paid to the Tories forever, that's one of my hopes anyway.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't need to prove it. it's home time and i'm not hanging around to bandy words with a loon, ie you.


Yep best get off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> ...and you moan about my posts not discussing brexit, yet this is what you manage.
> Perhaps if you risked saying _something, _anything actually, containing your own 'new' reflections on brexit you might begin to slither towards interesting.


this isn't a thread for reflections. I've seen yours and they're hideous. I've posted about the process as current events on this thread, Johnson as pm pissing away the time, his lacklustre negotiation skills, refusing to extend the transition period so now we're locked into 31/12/20... Things that were current when posted but obvs have aged since. But when you're asked you post up some auld shite that doesn't even mention Johnson, doesn't mention the trade negotiations, doesn't the transition period. I'll take no lectures from you on novelty.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> this isn't a thread for reflections. I've seen yours and they're hideous. I've posted about the process as current events on this thread, Johnson as pm pissing away the time, his lacklustre negotiation skills, refusing to extend the transition period so now we're locked into 31/12/20... Things that were current when posted but obvs have aged since. But when you're asked you post up some auld shite that doesn't even mention Johnson, doesn't mention the trade negotiations, doesn't the transition period. I'll take no lectures from you on novelty.


It is you who indulges in the lecturing and believes you have the right to quality control the posts of others.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It is you who indulges in the lecturing and believes you have the right to quality control the posts of others.



Jeez, you seem to have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. Have you been to the toilet?

(Puerile, I know, but that seems to be the level on this thread today...)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It is you who indulges in the lecturing and believes you have the right to quality control the posts of others.


If only I could control your output the drivel you post would be a thing of the past.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> OK brexit.
> I wonder at which point we will diverge (although I suppose it is a given that we think of each other as cunts).
> Your mate streathamite says what he or she has in common with you is a belief in class action.
> Yet the line streathamite seems to have taken is that the pissed off were conned into brexit by mendacious forces who encourged them to blame the EU for the things that pissed them off. A great con if you like.
> ...



It's not "the Irish border".

It's a British border, imposed on Ireland.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> It's not "the Irish border".
> 
> It's a British border, imposed on Ireland.



Absolutely.
I used to write  'the land border in Ireland' and that became a bit of a faff, but I agree with you completely.
After all these years the brexit coalition (?) has still not come up with a solution to the conundrum.
Those who moan that I should not mention it any more would not make the conundrum disappear by making me or my posts disappear.
However moaning at me is a distraction technique from those in favour of brexit who haven't the wit or intelligence themselves to solve their own problem, yet laughingly they accuse me of stupidity.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> If only I could control your output the drivel you post would be a thing of the past.


'If only I could control'.
Pickman's lament.
Bless.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> Jeez, you seem to have got out of bed on the wrong side this morning. Have you been to the toilet?
> 
> (Puerile, I know, but that seems to be the level on this thread today...)



I have been to the bog yes.
FYI I am very careful not to _initiate_ personal abuse, but always respond if it is thrown in my direction.
Would you like to enquire as to what TopCat was getting at asking me about if I had any teeth?
Or Pickman's model likening me to Anders Breivik?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> If you're suggesting violence I live in Lewisham. Where and when do you suggest?


Ha my home borough!

I expect to be able to recognise you given your stated life purpose to call over half the country racist cunts. You must get regularly in scuffles. Missing teeth and bruises? 

I wont put you on ignore given you consistently represent the worst of the remainer attitudes. It's important to remember the effect on our lives that people like you had.


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 12, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Fair enough but don’t let it devour you.  Regardless of your position, Brexit hysteria that is pumped out through the media 24/7 is a poor media diet of grim imo.



says the guy who quoted the daily express lately ...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ha my home borough!
> 
> I expect to be able to recognise you given your stated life purpose to call over half the country racist cunts. You must get regularly in scuffles. Missing teeth and bruises?
> 
> I wont put you on ignore given you consistently represent the worst of the remainer attitudes. It's important to remember the effect on our lives that people like you had.



We live in the same borough? Brilliant.
Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier today you were suggesting doing violence to me with that question about teeth.
So I call you out on your threat.
Suggest a time and a place where you will attempt to carry out your threat and I will be there. As you will have (as you say) no trouble recognising me, would you mind posting your picture so I can recognise you?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> We live in the same borough? Brilliant.
> Correct me if I'm wrong but earlier today you were suggesting doing violence to me with that question about teeth.
> So I call you out on your threat.
> Suggest a time and a place where you will attempt to carry out your threat and I will be there. As you will have (as you say) no trouble recognising me, would you mind posting your picture so I can recognise you?



Oh ffs, cut it out. Adolescent posturing.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> Oh ffs, cut it out. Adolescent posturing.



Are you taking sides?
Are you suggesting that I should melt away because TopCat seemed to threaten violence?
I can assure you it isn't posturing on my part, even if it seems adolescent to you.
I will be there if he wants to carry out his threat.
The station?
The clock tower?
Under the plaster cat in Catford?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 12, 2020)

Get a grip.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Does get a grip mean that if TopCat threatens violence I should run away?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Are you taking sides?
> Are you suggesting that I should melt away because Topcat seemed to threaten violence?
> I can assure you it isn't posturing on my part, even if it seems adolescent to you.
> I will be there if he wants to carry out his threat.
> ...



The teeth thing I took to be implying that if you openly slag off anyone who voted Leave as a racist in your community with the ardour you do online, you might have lost a few teeth. But, y'know, whatever.

The Rialto, Crofton Park? (JOKE)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> 'If only I could control'.
> Pickman's lament.
> Bless.


your lament, your constant and dull refrain for some years now, has been about how remain lost. it extends at excruciating length over thousands of your posts. By contrast my lament extends over precisely one. You've spent weeks if not months of your life whining about how it's all so unfair etc like some superannuated Kevin the teenager. What a way to spend your sunset years


----------



## teqniq (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese I was thinking something along the same lines, that and old age.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> The teeth thing I took to be implying that if you openly slag off anyone who voted Leave as a racist in your community with the ardour you do online, you might have lost a few teeth. But, y'know, whatever.
> 
> The Rialto, Crofton Park? (JOKE)


You took it that way, I took it as a threat.
It was hours ago and if it wasn't a direct threat TopCat has had ample opportunity to put the record straight.
The Brockley Jack?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> The teeth thing I took to be implying that if you openly slag off anyone who voted Leave as a racist in your community with the ardour you do online, you might have lost a few teeth. But, y'know, whatever.
> 
> The Rialto, Crofton Park? (JOKE)


Bet he skulks about speaking nary a word about his views


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> your lament, your constant and dull refrain for some years now, has been about how remain lost. it extends at excruciating length over thousands of your posts. By contrast my lament extends over precisely one. You've spent weeks if not months of your life whining about how it's all so unfair etc like some superannuated Kevin the teenager. What a way to spend your sunset years



As opposed to fantasising about hanging Boris Johnson somewhere in the South Atlantic?
Your whining is so superior to the whining of others is it?
'If only you could control'.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You took it that way, I took it as a threat.
> It was hours ago and if it wasn't a direct threat TopCat has had ample opportunity to put the record straight.
> The Brockley Jack?



Ok, never mind. I just think calling people out for a fight irl on the internet is a silly waste of time. Carry on to your heart's content, I'm out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> As opposed to fantasising about hanging Boris Johnson somewhere in the South Atlantic?
> Your whining is so superior to the whining of others is it?
> 'If only you could control'.


I have never fantasised about hanging Boris Johnson in the south atlantic


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Bet he skulks about speaking nary a word about his views



You're invited, you can be cameraman if you like.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I have never fantasised about hanging Boris Johnson in the south atlantic


Somewhere else then.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> Ok, never mind. I just think calling people out for a fight irl on the internet is a silly waste of time. Carry on to your heart's content, I'm out.



Tell that to TopCat if you like.
Bye.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 12, 2020)

Could you put it all in one post so I don't see so many "You are ignoring content by this member. Show ignored content" messages? THanks.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> The teeth thing I took to be implying that if you openly slag off anyone who voted Leave as a racist in your community with the ardour you do online, you might have lost a few teeth. But, y'know, whatever.



You just have to call them racist using polysyllabic words, and then they won't understand you.

I'm joking of course. They actually become violently enraged by anything they don't understand.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 12, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Does get a grip mean that if TopCat threatens violence I should run away?


If TopCat threatens violence, phone Officer Dibble.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If TopCat threatens violence, phone Officer Dibble.



I see what you did there.


----------



## Supine (Oct 12, 2020)

This thread needs a ban hammer


----------



## Winot (Oct 12, 2020)

He ruined the other long Brexit thread too.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Parts of the village of Sevington in Kent are being concreted over for a lorry park. Locals have seen no plans, pathways have been closed and there has been environmental damage.
According to a story in the Independent a local, Sharon Swandale, says this was never part of the selling and marketing of Brexit.
Kent voted 60-40 in favour of brexit.
A local Kent County Councillor, Tory scum Paul Bartlett who lives next to the construction site says it will bring jobs to the area.
Even if the local environment is damaged, and the whole thing needn't have happened it is already going ahead.
Bartlett said it is a beautiful part of the country to live in but sometimes you've got to take the rough with the smooth.
What smooth?
I personally hope it fucks up more and more of Kent and they are gridlocked and concreted over for decades because they voted for it. I hope the rough is overwhelmingly unbearable and they can cast around for eternity for the never happening smooth.
This is the start of the range of concrete sites Brexit voters willingly invited on.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I personally hope it fucks up more and more of Kent and they are gridlocked and concreted over for decades because they voted for it. I hope the rough is overwhelmingly unbearable and they can cast around for eternity for the never happening smooth.


I get that you're posting for effect, but as someone with all my family in East Kent, (who mostly voted R FWIW), I'd say that your hopes are not only ecologically disastrous, but also damaging to many folks living in considerable deprivation. Much of East Kent suffers from levels of multiple deprivation comparable with the poorer parts of Greater London.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 13, 2020)

This thread is unreadable.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I get that you're posting for effect, but as someone with all my family in East Kent, (who mostly voted R FWIW), I'd say that your hopes are not only ecologically disastrous, but also damaging to many folks living in considerable deprivation. Much of East Kent suffers from levels of multiple deprivation comparable with the poorer parts of Greater London.
> 
> View attachment 234163


Yes it is a disaster.
However until it is made practically manifest how else will the penny drop for those who usher this on?
Reasoned argument hasn't worked has it? Pointing out the practical problems hasn't worked either.
I was born in a deprived part of Kent, but live in quite a humble part of London.
Brexit voting posters here are triumphalist and call objectors like me cunts, they seemingly welcome the suffering for your family and others.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes it is a disaster.
> However until it is made practically manifest how else will the penny drop for those who usher this on?
> Reasoned argument hasn't worked has it? Pointing out the practical problems hasn't worked either.
> I was born in a deprived part of Kent, but live in quite a humble part of London.
> Brexit voting posters here are triumphalist and call objectors like me cunts, they seemingly welcome the suffering for your family and others.


If the entire Tory project to leave the EU has taught us anything at all, it is surely that we're dealing with a consciousness that derives from the affective rather than material conditions. Yes, the immediate post-Brexit years will see significant economic harm for the working class, but wishing that on certain areas will do nothing to change peoples' minds, will it?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> If the entire Tory project to leave the EU has taught us anything at all, it is surely that we're dealing with a consciousness that derives from the affective rather than material conditions. Yes, the immediate post-Brexit years will see significant economic harm for the working class, but wishing that on certain areas will do nothing to change peoples' minds, will it?



It might.
What else is there?
And isn't it too late to change minds anyway?
In my younger idealistic years the notion was that the deprived would rise up and overthrow the ruling elite.
Never been a chance of that though.
It is said rebellion of the belly is the hardest to put down, maybe the one unforeseen benefit of brexit is that it becomes unbearable enough for the ruling elite to be destroyed by those affected.
Is there an alternative pathway?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might.
> What else is there?
> And isn't it too late to change minds anyway?
> In my younger idealistic years the notion was that the deprived would rise up and overthrow the ruling elite.
> ...


Trouble is, when remain supporters say things like 





> I personally hope it fucks up more and more of Kent and they are gridlocked and concreted over for decades because they voted for it.


 you just sound like a massive cunt.
FWIW, I believe that, in time, working class voters who were persuaded to vote Leave, will come to regret seeing either option as a means of improving life chances for their kids/grandkids, but I think that'll take some time...and suprastate supporters cheering their misfortune from the wings will not help that process.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Trouble is, when remain supporters say things like  you just sound like a massive cunt.
> FWIW, I believe that, in time, working class voters who were persuaded to vote Leave, will come to regret seeing either option as a means of improving life chances for their kids/grandkids, but I think that'll take some time...and suprastate supporters cheering their misfortune from the wings will not help that process.


You believe that in time there will be regret.
I hope by bring a massive cunt on this matter it might accelerate the process.
I take some comfort in however massive a cunt I am I have a way to go to reach the cuntish levels of brexit voters.
The slower the process the more embedded the enemy become from my point of view.
Rees Mogg has already tried to buy himself 50 years.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You believe that in time there will be regret.
> I hope by bring a massive count on this matter it might accelerate the process.
> I take some comfort in however massive a cunt I am I have a way to go to reach the cuntish levels of brexit voters.
> The slower the process the more embedded the enemy become from my point of view.
> Rees Mogg has already tried to buy himself 50 years.


OK, I tried to engage.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

OK so did I.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 13, 2020)

Thread going on ignore.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Thread going on ignore.


that's shutting the gate after the horse has bolted


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> that's shutting the gate after the horse has bolted


I wasn’t reading anything new. Time, sadly, is precious.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 13, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This thread is unreadable.


put the bugger on ignore. I did, and it improved the thread for me no end!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Ignore and no-platforming is a useful part of the armoury of the left. I get why it's done.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 13, 2020)

I have both philosophical and Marty1 on ignore but as a lot of the posts are replies to this pair of plonkers it remains very hard going trying to make sense of the thread or whether or not there is actually any news worth reporting or discussing.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I wasn’t reading anything new. Time, sadly, is precious.


Understood, but I have a feeling that this thread might get quite busy, (& possibly more substantial) over the next 2 or 3 months.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Ignore and no-platforming is a useful part of the armoury of the left. I get why it's done.


Page 40 onwards is largely worth ignoring, tbh.  
Wonder what happened.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 13, 2020)

I’m back, I’m a nosey bastard at heart!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2020)

Putting that dickhead on ignore does make it hard to read the thread, but you are all big boys and girls, if you just ignore the prick the thread is readable and you don't need to listen to the infantile politics of the sad case.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Putting that dickhead on ignore does make it hard to read the thread, but you are all big boys and girls, if you just ignore the prick the thread is readable and you don't need to listen to the infantile politics of the sad case.


 I tend to agree.
Sadly the first responses of the big boys and girls tend to be personal abuse, and sometimes threats.
It seems difficult for some to ignore me, the prick or the cunt or whatever.
Maybe the big boys and girls are not as confident in their stances as they wish to believe, abuse is the easy way to run away.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I tend to agree.
> Sadly the first responses of the big boys and girls tend to be personal abuse, and sometimes threats.
> It seems difficult for some to ignore me, the prick or the cunt or whatever.
> Maybe the big boys and girls are not as confident in their stances as they wish to believe, abuse is the easy way to run away.




There was no threat you fool, no one except you read what TopCat wrote to mean anything other than what he meant, i.e. that if, as you claim, you espouse your views vocally around the streets of south London you must be fond of eating through straws.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There was no threat you fool, no one except you read what TopCat wrote to mean anything other than what he meant, i.e. that if, as you claim you espouse your views vocally around the streets of south London you must be fond of eating through straws.



I disagree.
If TopCat wasn't advocating violence why didn't he deny it when called out on it?
Was he relying on telepathy?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I disagree.
> If TopCat wasn't advocating violence why didn't he deny it when called out on it?
> Was he relying on telepathy?



Probably too busy laughing at you.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably too busy laughing at you.



Guess work.
As is your post number 1453. Although well played for slipping in a bit of personal abuse into that post. You haven't lost your touch have you?
Incidentally not once have I claimed to have 'espoused my views vocally around the streets of south London', however I understand that you may feel telling outright lies might make you feel it strengthens your case, whatever case you might be trying to make.
Abusing, no platforming, ignoring, and lying are quite the common currency on Urban75 aren't they?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Guess work.
> As is your post number 1453. Although well played for slipping in a bit of personal abuse into that post. You haven't lost your touch have you?
> Incidentally not once have I claimed to have 'espoused my views vocally around the streets of south London', however I understand that you may feel telling outright lies might make you feel it strengthens your case, whatever case you might be trying to make.
> Abusing, no platforming, ignoring, and lying are quite the common currency on Urban75 aren't they?


yeh i've seen you handing out the abuse, ignoring what people have said and claiming they've said something other than they did.

you're really lucky you haven't been no platformed.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2020)

FFS PLEASE STOP


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh i've seen you handing out the abuse, ignoring what people have said and claiming they've said something other than they did.
> 
> you're really lucky you haven't been no platformed.



I suppose you believe irritating posts are enough to be banned huh?
Not loving Big Brother enough eh?
Are you the moderator of Urban 75?
Edit.
I have never once put anybody here or elsewhere on ignore by the way. Putting fingers in my ear and chanting la la la is not my approach.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I suppose you believe irritating posts are enough to be banned huh?
> Not loving Big Brother enough eh?
> Are you the moderator of Urban 75?
> Edit.
> I have never once put anybody here or elsewhere on ignore by the way. Putting fingers in my ear and chanting la la la is not my approach.


Here you go again. You have ignored what I said. I said nothing about you putting people on ignore

Let's see how you play on your own for a bit


----------



## Flavour (Oct 13, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> if you just ignore the prick the thread is readable



beg to differ.

anyway. 13th october. "entering a tunnel". EU clearly quite prepared for a No Deal exit. Britain less so. Barnier basically making funny hand gestures while Johnson talks. Something about fish. Nobody cares.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 13, 2020)

Flavour said:


> beg to differ.
> 
> anyway. 13th october. "entering a tunnel". EU clearly quite prepared for a No Deal exit. Britain less so. Barnier basically making funny hand gestures while Johnson talks. Something about fish. Nobody cares.


They don't believe Johnson...which seems reasonable...no-one does.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

The brexit busting ships and extending the movement between Cork and Roscoff and Rosslare and Cherbourg may well be the answer for internal trade within part of the EU, with no need to use the UK as a land bridge and endure 12 hour delays at Dover or Harwich or wherever under the new UK lorry park initiative.
The time differences may well become marginal, especially if the French authorities are super strict.
There may even then be a valve style scenario occouring on the island of Ireland where anything anybody and everything pours north into the UK, but movement south is as disrupted as possible for UK registered or originated stuff.
Yes it would be against the GFA, but once demonstrated that it is caused by those who voted brexit, then any push back is likely to be against the Brits, particularly the English and Welsh.
Holyhead and Fishguard would take a hit but it might be a real test of the notion they need us more than we need them. Anyway Holyhead can open up for all the Mongolian imports.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 13, 2020)

I'm not sure if I like Nantucket sleighride by Mountain- any other people undecided ?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 13, 2020)

One of my favourite tracks


----------



## Raheem (Oct 13, 2020)

Read in the Guardian that the EU has agreed to allow us to remain in the single market for energy, and the penny dropped. BJ's sudden enthusiasm for renewables is at the EU's behest, isn't it? They want a way to be able to access cheap renewable electricity without upsetting their own farmers and tourist industry.

Are we talking about the album or the title track?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> ...
> Brexit voting posters here are triumphalist and call objectors like me cunts, they seemingly welcome the suffering for your family and others.


This is quite frankly bullshit. No-one on here as far as i can see is 'triumpahlist'. Everybody here agrees that Brexit as manifested by the disaster capitalists currently in charge is a disaster. Please post examples of triumphalism on here or STFU.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> This is quite frankly bullshit. No-one on here as far as i can see is 'triumpahlist'. Everybody agrees that Brexit as manifested by the disaster capitalists currently in charge is a disaster. Please post examples of triumphalism on here or STFU.



Those who voted for brexit.
Simple.
When you declare 'everybody agrees' it is a similar claim to my saying 'brexit voting posters here' wouldn't you agree?
Or are there differing standards of generalising in play on urban75?

Apologies for my bad spelling of 'triumphalist'.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Those who voted for brexit.
> Simple.
> When you declare 'everybody agrees' it is a similar claim to my saying 'brexit voting posters here' wouldn't you agree?
> Or are there differing standards of generalising in play on urban75?
> ...


Youre right
We All Agree
Thank you
No need to say any more now


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical No you don't get to wriggle out of it that easily.

You said 





> Brexit voting posters here are triumphalist ...



Which i took to mean pretty much what it looks like, so please post examples.

Moreover I have editied my post to reflect what I actually meant: 'Everybody _here_ agrees'.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Youre right
> We All Agree
> Thank you
> No need to say any more now



Well the latest news regarding the specifics of the lorry park is recent enough to suggest more people might have more to say on this thread in the future, as more practical scenarios are highlighted.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> philosophical No you don't get to wriggle out of it that easily.
> 
> You said
> 
> ...



Now there's a challenge.
Try posts 1355 1363 in order to get started.
I am not going to trawl every lexiteer post aimed in my direction over the past four or so years, if you choose not to believe me then so be it.
However whilst generalising, lexiteers have tended to say stuff like 'if brexit pisses off you (meaning me) then bring it on'.
If you want chapter and verse you will have to search for it yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> I'm not sure if I like Nantucket sleighride by Mountain- any other people undecided ?


Play it backwards and you'll love it


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Now there's a challenge.
> Try posts 1355 1363 in order to get started.
> I am not going to trawl every lexiteer post aimed in my direction over the past four or so years, if you choose not to believe me then so be it.
> However whilst generalising, lexiteers have tended to say stuff like 'if brexit pisses off you (meaning me) then bring it on'.
> If you want chapter and verse you will have to search for it yourself.


Neither of those posts by Top Cat would I regard as 'triumphalist'. The first is calling you a liar, the second is calling you stupid. Neither are crowing or gloating over Brexit per se.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Neither of those posts by Top Cat would I regard as 'triumphalist'. The first is calling you a liar, the second is calling you stupid. Neither are crowing or gloating over Brexit per se.


What about the use of the word 'remainer'?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What about the use of the word 'remainer?


What about it? It does not imply 'triumphalist' imo. Frustration almost certainly though.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 13, 2020)

I must say, Pickman's brogdlae and teqniq, I envy your persistence and stamina. I simply could not be arsed with the eejit


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> What about it? It does not imply 'triumphalist' imo. Frustration almost certainly though.


OK.
It implies triumphalist to me as in 'you're a remainer' as opposed to 'I voted brexit'....the side which won.
If it is about frustration I struggle to see how that fits in.
Like 'you're a remainer, and I am frustrated you don't metaphorically bend the knee'?
There is a refrain on here which goes 'shut the fuck up' which is fine, maybe frustration comes if a person does not obey that order which is too bad.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> OK.
> It implies triumphalist to me as in 'you're a remainer' as opposed to 'I voted brexit'....the side which won.


This entirely discounts the terms under which Brexit the person who voted leave wanted and the reasons why.


> If it is about frustration I struggle to see how that fits in.
> Like 'you're a remainer, and I am frustrated you don't metaphorically bend the knee'?


The frustration, if it is such is you not realising and/or accepting that there were and still are a lot of ordinary, mostly working-class people who feel disenfranchised and left behind by the EU and voted accordingly. you seem to be incapable of seeing this and the reasons why.


> There is a refrain on here which goes 'shut the fuck up' which is fine, maybe frustration comes if a person does not obey that order which is too bad.


not really, please see above.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 13, 2020)

'Remoaner' I might agree with you but remainer's equivalent to 'brexiteer' said by remainers I'd have said.


----------



## gosub (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What about the use of the word 'remainer'?


Oh such inflammatory language from the people you call cunts for not sharing your political perspective.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> This entirely discounts the terms under which Brexit the person who voted leave wanted and the reasons why.
> 
> The frustration, if it is such is you not realising and/or accepting that there were and still are a lot of ordinary, mostly working-class people who feel disenfranchised and left behind by the EU and voted accordingly. you seem to be incapable of seeing this and the reasons why.
> not really, please see above.



You are completely right about your first point.
I do entirely discount the terms (were there terms in a binary vote?) and also the reasons and concentrate on what was actually done.
The action of voting.
And the consequences that flow from that action.

I have a problem with accepting that a lot of ordinary mostly working class people voted brexit because they felt disenfranchised and left behind by the EU for a couple of reasons.

One is that I am uncomfortable with what I think is rather a patronising attitude towards those people, where their motivation is guessed at, but if we have to go down that road isn't another guess that they are motivated by racism? One lobby says they were voting because they were downtrodden, and another lobby says they were voting that way because they hate foreigners.

A second reason is that I have heard many times brexit voters say stuff along the lines that they knew what they were voting for, and the losers should jolly well get over it.

So in the absence of certainty as to what motivated the brexit vote we (or I) am left to contemplate what flows from the result. Not contemplate why people voted the way they did.
And what I see as flowing from the result is nothing but bad stuff.
Earlier today when mentioning the lorry parks I referenced a Kent County Councillor who says we have to take the rough with the smooth, he was talking about the consequences that flow from the vote as much as I am when talking of the land border on the island of Ireland.

So to sum up I am not somebody prepared to accept interpretations as to why people voted brexit, I am much more somebody who wants to highlight the damage the vote has caused and will cause. Not conciliatory, not prepared to make the best of it, mainly because I am way too old for that kind of stuff any more.


If that is the reason for frustration the so be it, however I have stated my position and make no apologies for it however much I am abused on here.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Oh such inflammatory language from the people you call cunts for not sharing your political perspective.


I call people cunts in return for what they dish out first.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I call people cunts in return for what they dish out first.



Never seen in the same room as Detective Boy...


----------



## teqniq (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical Fair enough you've clearly stated your position but the fact remains you've misrepresented posters on here by describing them as 'triumphalist' nor have you provided any clear evididence that this is indeed the case, which was my point in the first place.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> The frustration, if it is such is you not realising and/or accepting that there were and still are a lot of ordinary, mostly working-class people who feel disenfranchised and left behind by the EU and voted accordingly.


The thing is, it wasn't really the EU that left them behind, which is why I voted Remain. It was every single government we have had since 1979 (and, arguably, before then) that did that, as in inevitable result of policy. All our (and their) problems are 100% homegrown.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

teqniq said:


> philosophical Fair enough you've clearly stated your position but the fact remains you've misrepresented posters on here by describing them as 'triumphalist' nor have you provided any clear evididence that this is indeed the case, which was my point in the first place.


He's form for such like the time he called all and sundry racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever


----------



## Smangus (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You are completely right about your first point.
> I do entirely discount the terms (were there terms in a binary vote?) and also the reasons and concentrate on what was actually done.
> The action of voting.
> And the consequences that flow from that action.
> ...



 that is all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I must say, Pickman's brogdlae and teqniq, I envy your persistence and stamina. I simply could not be arsed with the eejit


To be fair it's much easier when you're really bored at work


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> He's form for such like the time he called all and sundry racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever


Lie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Lie.


I only wish it was


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I only wish it was


Your wish is granted.
A plain lie.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 13, 2020)

Surely extra time is finished by now? Can we have the penalty shoot out please?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Lie.


Take a trip back to 4/3/18 and your posts on the will we have a brexit thread, where you start off by saying everyone who voted brexit was racist and then suggested everyone who disagreed with you voted brexit: and was therefore a racist


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Take a trip back to 4/3/18 and your posts on the will we have a brexit thread, where you start off by saying everyone who voted brexit was racist and then suggested everyone who disagreed with you voted brexit: and was therefore a racist



"He's form for such like the time he called all and sundry racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever"

Plain lie.
Again.


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You are completely right about your first point.
> I do entirely discount the terms (were there terms in a binary vote?) and also the reasons and concentrate on what was actually done.
> The action of voting.
> And the consequences that flow from that action.
> ...



Wasn’t Brexit supposed to be a working class revolt against the establishment?

Cameron telling everyone to vote to remain and getting Obama to tell us we’d be at the back of the queue for US trade if we voted leave.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Play it backwards and you'll love it



Doesn't that invoke Yog-Sothoth into the body of the nearest virgin? 

I don't want to see some 20-something incel carrying the essence of a Great Old One!!!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Marty1 said:


> Wasn’t Brexit supposed to be a working class revolt against the establishment?
> 
> Cameron telling everyone to vote to remain and getting Obama to tell us we’d be at the back of the queue for US trade if we voted leave.



Whatever it was supposed to be brexit won.

I am certainly on the losing side. It was a binary choice, on the winning side were Gove, Farage, Johnson, Yakitty Lookatme, and much much more.
Abstention was an option I suppose, but nah for me. I didn't want to give the likes of those a free reign, and I had also_ before _the vote given a bit of thought to some aspects at least. Particularly the border in Ireland having a brother living in Shannon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> "He's form for such like the time he called all and sundry racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever"
> 
> Plain lie.
> Again.


Except it's there for the rest of the existence of these boards for anyone who wants to see how you behaved and what you said. Deny it as you will, the record speaks for itself


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Parts of the village of Sevington in Kent are being concreted over for a lorry park. Locals have seen no plans, pathways have been closed and there has been environmental damage.
> According to a story in the Independent a local, Sharon Swandale, says this was never part of the selling and marketing of Brexit.
> Kent voted 60-40 in favour of brexit.
> A local Kent County Councillor, Tory scum Paul Bartlett who lives next to the construction site says it will bring jobs to the area.
> ...


and so in your ire what about the 40% who voted against it there then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> and so in your ire what about the 40% who voted against it there then?


He would do unto them as the Lord did unto Sodom and Gomorrah


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Except it's there for the rest of the existence of these boards for anyone who wants to see how you behaved and what you said. Deny it as you will, the record speaks for itself



You already modified 'all and sundry' your very self.
The record above on this thread speaks for itself.
Plain lie.
Own it.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> and so in your ire what about the 40% who voted against it there then?



I'm in Lewisham.
Remain here got 86,995
Leave got 37,518
There were 164 ballot papers rejected.
Turnout was 63.1%

Oh I see, you mean the 40% in Kent?
They lost.
As did I.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You already modified 'all and sundry' your very self.
> The record above on this thread speaks for itself.
> Plain lie.
> Own it.


Desperate stuff.

It's very easy for anyone who wants to to go back to your posts of 4 march 2018 and see your first post on brexit where you say that as far as you're concerned everyone who voted brexit was a racist. A range of people, without specifying whether they were leavers or remainers, took issue with this and you said that you believed them all to be brexit voters - which,as you had already said what you thought of brexit voters, meant you thought them all racist. There you have it, anyone who disagreed with you smeared as a racist. And nothing has changed for you, as your painting TopCat as a fan of syl above indicates


----------



## philosophical (Oct 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Desperate stuff.
> 
> It's very easy for anyone who wants to to go back to your posts of 4 march 2018 and see your first post on brexit where you say that as far as you're concerned everyone who voted brexit was a racist. A range of people, without specifying whether they were leavers or remainers, took issue with this and you said that you believed them all to be brexit voters - which,as you had already said what you thought of brexit voters, meant you thought them all racist. There you have it, anyone who disagreed with you smeared as a racist. And nothing has changed for you, as your painting TopCat as a fan of syl above indicates



How many different ways can I tell you you're wrong and lying?
This is what you wrote this evening:
'He's form for such like the time he called *all and sundry* racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever".
I called it out as a lie, it remains a lie, however much you desperately try to modify it.


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 13, 2020)

philosophical said:


> How many different ways can I tell you you're wrong and lying?
> This is what you wrote this evening:
> 'He's form for such like the time he called *all and sundry* racist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever".
> I called it out as a lie, it remains a lie, however much you desperately try to modify it.



Oh god, do we really have to do this?!









						Is Brexit actually going to happen?
					

So ignoring subsidies for the moment - if the Uk decided on a zero tariff default set, then the onus would be on the EU to decide if they wanted to reciprocate that. By their own principle of "it's the UKs decision to leave, so the UK needs to propose the solution to the EUUK Border issue, as...




					www.urban75.net
				




And then myself, butchers, and lots of posters here with sound politics (often with proud anti-fascist/anti-racist activity behind them) wasted an agonising year explaining and advocating leave on grounds of opposing all neoliberal structures as well as on pro-working class grounds whilst you stuck your fingers in your ears and carried on with this pathetic display.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> Oh god, do we really have to do this?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am aware of many arguments (do you mean after the result? I am assuming you do) advocating leave proposed on here. One of which was the line 'let there be a United Ireland'.
Far from sticking my fingers in my ears I went on ad nauseum about the land border in Ireland. Attempting to point out the practical issues and inviting solutions.
It annoyed many, possibly because their idealism in having a glorious opposition to all neoliberal structures would have to confront the post brexit reality, and in the absence of answers I would be mocked and attacked for asking the question.
If my display was so pathetic, can you recall the practical and realistic solutions suggested that showed up how pathetic my questioning was and sent me on my way?
Your complaint seems to be about persistence, so may I ask of those advocating leave as you put it, what are their realistic and practical solutions to the border created when you leave somewhere?

Edit. Thanks for the link. It clarifies a lot.
My first post started with a question, the first response was to tell me to fuck off.
Very sort of pro working class was that!
Proud activism was it?


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

stethoscope said:


> Oh god, do we really have to do this?!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did anyone direct him to the referendum threads from the time of the referendum? Coz it didn't go down here the way it did elsewhere


----------



## teqniq (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical Whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that you clearly stated 





> Am I right in assuming that everybody who voted brexit is an ignorant racist self serving nationalist brainwashed tosser?


Just for the record, like. Where was the lie?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

gosub said:


> Did anyone direct him to the referendum threads from the time of the referendum? Coz it didn't go down here the way it did elsewhere


I wasn't a member here at the time of the referendum but after the result.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> philosophical Whilst conveniently ignoring the fact that you clearly stated Just for the record, like. Where was the lie?


Just for the record like, you have quoted a question not a statement.
And that question does not refer to all and sundry.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Just for the record like, you have quoted a question not a statement.
> And that question does not refer to all and sundry.


i know i am quoting a question but it is still making an assumption about _everybody_ who voted leave.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I wasn't a member here at the time of the referendum but after the result.



I saw that, from clicking through stethoscope's post.
I voted Leave, argued for it quite a bit at the time tbf I thought it would turn out different, but then if you had told me prior to the referendum that last few years would go the way they would - I wouldn't have believed you. Still,l I object to being called a cunt by someone willing on a crisis which  you have  done in the course of this recent derail.  In case you hadn't noticed we already are in crisis, as is much of the world and pulling tantrums about how it would all be so much better if we hadn't taken that turning at the roundabout four fucking years ago, what a futile waste of pixels to have to scroll past


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> i know i am quoting a question but it is still making an assumption about _everybody_ who voted leave.


You may have that view, but isn't a question a question?
And anyway everybody who voted leave is not all and sundry is it?


----------



## teqniq (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You may have that view, but isn't a question a question?
> And anyway everybody who voted leave is not all and sundry is it?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

gosub said:


> I saw that, from clicking through stethoscope's post.
> I voted Leave, argued for it quite a bit at the time tbf I thought it would turn out different, but then if you had told me prior to the referendum that last few years would go the way they would - I wouldn't have believed you. Still,l I object to being called a cunt by someone willing on a crisis which  you have  done in the course of this recent derail.  In case you hadn't noticed we already are in crisis, as is much of the world and pulling tantrums about how it would all be so much better if we hadn't taken that turning at the roundabout four fucking years ago, what a futile waste of pixels to have to scroll past



You are right I am willing on a crisis over brexit. I have previously explained my reasons why.
Isn't it equally futile to focus antipathy on me for doing so, rather than focus on the events you helped to bring about?
The genie is out of the bottle and it is not down to me if you feel frustrated you can't put it back in.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> View attachment 234260


Sigh.
All and sundry implies if you like everybody who voted leave _and everybody else as well._
pickmans models statement was a plain lie.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 14, 2020)

Weasel words. No, it wasn't.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Weasel words. No, it wasn't.


Weasel truths more like.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You are right I am willing on a crisis over brexit. I have previously explained my reasons why.
> Isn't it equally futile to focus antipathy on me for doing so, rather than focus on the events you helped to bring about
> The genie is out of the bottle and it is not down to me if you feel frustrated you can't put it back in.



The direction this has gone has been as much shaped by those grieving ther loss in the referendum if you ask me.  That said I was unhappy with the ways of the official campaign prior to the vote, but this is an established mature forum. And it was a long long fight to actually get a referendum  We had a lot of blowins, sone lasted some didn't but the discussions here weren't astroturfed, and the views expressed here were rational - what has actually happened since  defied reason.

Keeping genies in bottles is cruel and would probably contravene some welfare regulation somewhere.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Sigh.
> All and sundry implies if you like everybody who voted leave _and everybody else as well._
> pickmans models statement was a plain lie.



No harm in backing down.

Admitting that you were wrong and made stupid statements about voters doesn't mean you lose face.

I was very wrong about Brexit. And way too generalized and intransigent about leavers.

Realising, often painfully, just how wrong I got it has been immensely helpful and revelatory.

Give it a go.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You may have that view, but isn't a question a question?
> And anyway everybody who voted leave is not all and sundry is it?


You said you thought (without adducing any of your actual evidence) that posters who disagreed with you had voted brexit

And you'd been very clear what that meant you thought of them.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> No harm in backing down.
> 
> Admitting that you were wrong and made stupid statements about voters doesn't mean you lose face.
> 
> ...


I am sort of unclear what you mean.
If you mean back down and say that pickmans model's lie was the truth well that is a bit 1984ish isn't it?
Not only did I not say what he said I said, whatever the interpretation of any implications contained in a question, I didn't not not say it about all and sundry. Not only am I saying he lied , but whilst talking interpretation 'all and sundry' is a term shoved in there to indicate I am unable to differentiate.
Additionally it was the statement of your common or garden bully attempting to garner support from others.
So if you mean back down and declare his lie was the truth it is as I say an exhortation to follow the 1984 thing where Winston Smith is pressured to say two plus two is five.
If on the other hand you are saying I should back down from being too generalised and intransigent about leavers then that is a tough ask for me. As well as thinking being under the EU system is better than being under the sole UK system, my intransigence regarding those who voted leave is because they hitched up with the Tories in the main, they can't handle the details of leaving particularly the Irish question, and they have opened the door to increased racially based incidents directly impacting my family and others I know.
If I am wrong to hold that position I am yet to be persuaded. It certainly would be a revelation if it turns out brexit wasn't a Tory initiative, there is a good solution to the situation in Ireland, and my perception that there has been an increase in racial tension is imaginary.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You said you thought (without adducing any of your actual evidence) that posters who disagreed with you had voted brexit
> 
> And you'd been very clear what that meant you thought of them.


Sheesh are you still trying to justify your lie?
I asked a question at the very beginning of my first ever post.
That question was not about all and sundry.
If I saw a toddler cycling on the pavement in Lewishan and mentioned it, I wouldn't be saying all and sundry in Lewisham cycle on the pavement.
You lied about me, plain and simple, if you can't deal with it then the problem is yours.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am sort of unclear what you mean.
> If you mean back down and say that pickmans model's lie was the truth well that is a bit 1984ish isn't it?
> Not only did I not say what he said I said, whatever the interpretation of any implications contained in a question, I didn't not not say it about all and sundry. Not only am I saying he lied , but whilst talking interpretation 'all and sundry' is a term shoved in there to indicate I am unable to differentiate.
> Additionally it was the statement of your common or garden bully attempting to garner support from others.
> ...



There will be always beef but that can be eventually learnt from. Is it really necessary to stir it up, surely its over cooked at this stage?

Nobody is saying that the increase in racism hasn't happened. But at the same time, that's not down to the entire leave demographic. 

And Brexit, that admitted shambles, has given the opportunity for a free Ireland and Scotland. Every cloud, and all that...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Sheesh are you still trying to justify your lie?
> I asked a question at the very beginning of my first ever post.
> That question was not about all and sundry.
> If I saw a toddler cycling on the pavement in Lewishan and mentioned it, I wouldn't be saying all and sundry in Lewisham cycle on the pavement.
> You lied about me, plain and simple, if you can't deal with it then the problem is yours.


You asked a question if you were right in your beliefs about people who voted brexit

I have not said the question was about all and sundry

What happened next is you saying you thought everyone who disagreed with or questioned you had voted brexit - and were therefore in your eyes racist. You don't know how they'd voted. You didn't bother asking. Hell,you called me racist and I voted remain. That's you calling all and sundry racist


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

If you're saying my desire for brecit


krtek a houby said:


> There will be always beef but that can be eventually learnt from. Is it really necessary to stir it up, surely its over cooked at this stage?
> 
> Nobody is saying that the increase in racism hasn't happened. But at the same time, that's not down to the entire leave demographic.
> 
> And Brexit, that admitted shambles, has given the opportunity for a free Ireland and Scotland. Every cloud, and all that...


If you're suggesting my desire for Brexit to be as bad as it can possibly be is stirring I see it differently. If in some quarters Brexit is framed as successful itwill be a victory for theTories in my view.
If there is a United Ireland then that is a step forward and it might be on the cards if brexit voters are challenged (and then fail to answer) about the land border.
I see the increase in overt racism as a danger.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am sort of unclear what you mean.
> If you mean back down and say that pickmans model's lie was the truth well that is a bit 1984ish isn't it?
> Not only did I not say what he said I said, whatever the interpretation of any implications contained in a question, I didn't not not say it about all and sundry. Not only am I saying he lied , but whilst talking interpretation 'all and sundry' is a term shoved in there to indicate I am unable to differentiate.
> Additionally it was the statement of your common or garden bully attempting to garner support from others.
> ...


You are unable to differentiate

Take me saying you ignore what people say. You replied about how you've never put anyone on ignore. Not what I said at all. You respond to what you think people have said and not what they have said.

And on another point you have great goes at people with long and proud records of fighting racism and fascism. I don't know what you've done to stand up to racists and fascists but some of us were at Welling and Waterloo in the early 90s, at the '92 bloody Sunday march attacked by c18, involved with afa, no platform, antifa and other anti-racist and anti-fascist groups over the past 30 years or more. Yet you abrogate to yourself the right to decide who is racist, not on the grounds of any actual knowledge of the person but on what you feel about them. That's really really stupid.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You asked a question if you were right in your beliefs about people who voted brexit
> 
> I have not said the question was about all and sundry
> 
> What happened next is you saying you thought everyone who disagreed with or questioned you had voted brexit - and were therefore in your eyes racist. You don't know how they'd voted. You didn't bother asking. Hell,you called me racist and I voted remain. That's you calling all and sundry racist


Not at all.
What you wrote yesterday evening was a plain lie.
Now you're doubling down by inventing more stuff.
All and sundry is everybody.
Not that difficult to understand that term is it?
It really is amusing if you say that if something happens to you it happened to all and sundry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Not at all.
> What you wrote yesterday evening was a plain lie.
> Now you're doubling down by inventing more stuff.
> All and sundry is everybody.
> ...


Ah it hadn't on 4.3.18 yet happened to me

My turn came later

I am sure you recall the  pm exchange

But all and sundry does not mean tout le monde, it doesn't mean the whole world. It doesn't mean everyone on urban and it doesn't need to mean everyone who replied to that thread or this, you're stretching everyone beyond any reasonable or rational point


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You are unable to differentiate
> 
> Take me saying you ignore what people say. You replied about how you've never put anyone on ignore. Not what I said at all. You respond to what you think people have said and not what they have said.
> 
> And on another point you have great goes at people with long and proud records of fighting racism and fascism. I don't know what you've done to stand up to racists and fascists but some of us were at Welling and Waterloo in the early 90s, at the '92 bloody Sunday march attacked by c18, involved with afa, no platform, antifa and other anti-racist and anti-fascist groups over the past 30 years or more. Yet you abrogate to yourself the right to decide who is racist, not on the grounds of any actual knowledge of the person but on what you feel about them. That's really really stupid.


I have great goes at who particularly and how?
This reads like a scattergun desperate attempt to justify your existence by giving a record of your life.
I have done what I can in the past, but stating what will not compare with the amount some others have done, and anyway my degree of activism would provide another opportunity for attack probably.
Measure your dicks if you like but I won't join in with that.
I think you're continuing your attacks on me because you're embarrassed that you have been called out as a liar.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2020)

Can we start a new thread for this called Lets Rehash The Brexit Referendum. Philosophical, please go for it. Call it whatever you want

This is all nothing to do with the current transition period and trade deal and a massive derail.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Ah it hadn't on 4.3.18 yet happened to me
> 
> My turn came later
> 
> ...


All and sundry does mean all the things you say it doesn't mean.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Can we start a new thread for this called Lets Rehash The Brexit Referendum. Philosophical, please go for it. Call it whatever you want
> 
> This is all nothing to do with the current transition period and trade deal and a massive derail.


Well I was mentioning Kent this week and methods to by pass the UK land bridge. That is current, not a re-hash.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I have great goes at who particularly and how?
> This reads like a scattergun desperate attempt to justify your existence by giving a record of your life.
> I have done what I can in the past, but stating what will not compare with the amount some others have done, and anyway my degree of activism would provide another opportunity for attack probably.
> Measure your dicks if you like but I won't join in with that.
> I think you're continuing your attacks on me because you're embarrassed that you have been called out as a liar.


I don't care about being called out as a liar by you as that calling out is based on a specious falsehood


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> If you're saying my desire for brecit
> 
> If you're suggesting my desire for Brexit to be as bad as it can possibly be is stirring I see it differently. If in some quarters Brexit is framed as successful itwill be a victory for theTories in my view.
> If there is a United Ireland then that is a step forward and it might be on the cards if brexit voters are challenged (and then fail to answer) about the land border.
> I see the increase in overt racism as a danger.



The result is done with. Whether people like it or not at this stage is redundant. Fight the fallout rather than each other.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I have great goes at who particularly and how?
> This reads like a scattergun desperate attempt to justify your existence by giving a record of your life.
> I have done what I can in the past, but stating what will not compare with the amount some others have done, and anyway my degree of activism would provide another opportunity for attack probably.
> Measure your dicks if you like but I won't join in with that.
> I think you're continuing your attacks on me because you're embarrassed that you have been called out as a liar.


Do you remember calling TopCat a fascist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever? I'd call that having a great go at someone


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 14, 2020)

It's like picking an irksome scab.  It never properly heals, but mutates and swells.

philosophical can you please start a new thread for this beef, at the very least?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Well I was mentioning Kent this week and methods to by pass the UK land bridge. That is current, not a re-hash.


its lost in the twenty pages of derail


----------



## Supine (Oct 14, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> The result is done with. Whether people like it or not at this stage is redundant. Fight the fallout rather than each other.



Not only is the result done we also left Europe already! Time to move on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Well I was mentioning Kent this week and methods to by pass the UK land bridge. That is current, not a re-hash.


This would be the post where you joyed over the unhappy future of the county, the 60% who desired leaving - and the 40% who wished to stay


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

Supine said:


> Not only is the result done we also left Europe already! Time to move on.


Or in philosophical's case, to move off


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

Supine said:


> Not only is the result done we also left Europe already! Time to move on.



Almost time, just have to leave the UK...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't care about being called out as a liar by you as that calling out is based on a specious falsehood


Nah. Is based on the plain fact that what you wrote was a good old fashioned lie.
I am relieved that now you seem to acknowledge it.
Or are we about to go round again?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> The result is done with. Whether people like it or not at this stage is redundant. Fight the fallout rather than each other.


Yes the result is done with.
I was and am on the losing side.
My fight, however futile and minor, is to encourage the fall out to be as damaging as possible so the Tories fail.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Do you remember calling TopCat a fascist on the basis of er no evidence whatsoever? I'd call that having a great go at someone


Remind me.
You can include context if you like.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's like picking an irksome scab.  It never properly heals, but mutates and swells.
> 
> philosophical can you please start a new thread for this beef, at the very least?


 What beef?
I am a vegetarian for a start.
I have objected to being lied about by pickmans model and he is doubling down.
Tell him to start a new thread.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> its lost in the twenty pages of derail


Nevertheless it is there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Nah. Is based on the plain fact that what you wrote was a good old fashioned lie.
> I am relieved that now you seem to acknowledge it.
> Or are we about to go round again?


i am surprised by the importance you place on the number of people you've accused of being racists without evidence

Most people would defend themselves by denying that they had called anyone racist without any basis

But you haven't troubled yourself with such and wish only to argue over quantum


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> This would be the post where you joyed over the unhappy future of the county, the 60% who desired leaving - and the 40% who wished to stay


 You may well be right on that point.
I actually do want the post brexit future to be as unhappy as it can possibly be.
I explained why previously, because from my perspective the more awful it is the more damage it does to the Tories, the nationalists and the racists.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes the result is done with.
> I was and am on the losing side.
> My fight, however futile and minor, is to encourage the fall out to be as damaging as possible so the Tories fail.



Sod the Tories, it's the people who matter.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What beef?
> I am a vegetarian for a start.
> I have objected to being lied about by pickmans model and he is doubling down.
> Tell him to start a new thread.


mate, you aren't denying calling people racist

You aren't denying calling people racist without evidence

You are only disputing the number of people you have baselessly called racist

Give it up


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i am surprised by the importance you place on the number of people you've accused of being racists without evidence
> 
> Most people would defend themselves by denying that they had called anyone racist without any basis
> 
> But you haven't troubled yourself with such and wish only to argue over quantum



Good bit of ducking and diving.
You lie.
I call it out.
You then obfuscate by calling it an argument over quantum.
Well played.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Sod the Tories, it's the people who matter.


This is a point of divergence between you and me.
I can't bear the thought of a 'successful' brexit because it is a victory for the Tories and their ilk.
Maybe the people will react if everything goes to chite, I doubt it though.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2020)

tedious bollocks day after day after day.

it would be funny if the trucks all started doing a Cherbourg-Dublin route then driving up to Belfast, another ferry over to Liverpool, cos it was still quicker and cheaper than going through the People's Bureaucratic Entity of Kent (aka the Kentity)


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This is a point of divergence between you and me.
> I can't bear the thought of a 'successful' brexit because it is a victory for the Tories and their ilk.
> Maybe the people will react if everything goes to chite, I doubt it though.



Leave, remain... it's never been about the people


----------



## spitfire (Oct 14, 2020)

I'm old enough to remember when this thread was worth reading, no matter how you voted (remain here btw).

Give it a rest philosophical. Please.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> mate, you aren't denying calling people racist
> 
> You aren't denying calling people racist without evidence
> 
> ...



What is there to deny?
Your invention or spin on what I have supposed to have done?
You lie.
Plain fact.
Give it up.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I can't bear the thought of a 'successful' brexit because it is a victory for the Tories and their ilk.





krtek a houby said:


> Leave, remain... it's never been about the people



Quite. Had remain won that would also have been a tory victory.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite. Had remain won that would also have been a tory victory.



Yup.

The result speeches were already written.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

spitfire said:


> I'm old enough to remember when this thread was worth reading, no matter how you voted (remain here btw).
> 
> Give it a rest philosophical. Please.


 
If you mean stop defending myself is that what you expect me to do?
There is more than one participant.


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2020)

Interesting* to see philosophical trying to argue for as disastrous a Brexit as possible in order to to damage the Tories etc.

Some of us were arguing for a Leave vote in the referendum for that very reason, although I guess to argue it back them was racist, but now it's entirely the opposite. 

* for a certain rather narrow version of "interesting", admittedly


----------



## spitfire (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> If you mean stop defending myself is that what you expect me to do?
> There is more than one participant.



Mate, you've been poking the wasps" nest for days now, what do you expect? This was a very useful thread of info regarding the negotiations. And now it's just a shitfight.

Put it down to a score draw. Will that do?

*#notallwasps


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Quite. Had remain won that would also have been a tory victory.



You're right.
For me it was the lesser of two evils.
What has happened since brexit won has confirmed that to me.
It wasn't at all difficult or complex for me at the time of the vote, leaving aside the practicalities for a moment, when I viewed the landscape and saw Rees Mogg, Gove, Francois, Johnson, Farage, and so on lined up on one side, deciding where to place my cross was lemon squeezy.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You may well be right on that point.
> I actually do want the post brexit future to be as unhappy as it can possibly be.
> I explained why previously, because from my perspective the more awful it is the more damage it does to the Tories, the nationalists and the racists.


CUNT!.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You're right.
> For me it was the lesser of two evils.
> What has happened since brexit won has confirmed that to me.
> It wasn't at all difficult or complex for me at the time of the vote, leaving aside the practicalities for a moment, when I viewed the landscape and saw Rees Mogg, Gove, Francois, Johnson, Farage, and so on lined up on one side, *deciding where to place my cross was lemon squeezy.*




Alongside Cameron and Osborne and Clegg with their austerity, Blair and Brown with their murderous adventures in the Middle East, Major and all his crap.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

spitfire said:


> Mate, you've been poking the wasps" nest for days now, what do you expect? This was a very useful thread of info regarding the negotiations. And now it's just a shitfight.
> 
> Put it down to a score draw. Will that do?
> 
> *#notallwasps



I am more interested in the practicalities arising than a fight.
The runes seem to say there will be 'no deal'.
Australian style this, WTO that, and Canada style the other.
The trade envoy to Mongolia, concrete passported Kent.
The initiative by the ROI to by pass the UK land bridge.
The ending of the EHIC system (which seems to be about the Tory move towards privatising healthcare for a profit).
Then there are enterprises abandoning workers in the UK because of it's isolationist attitude.
Talking about that stuff interests me more than engaging with the wasps that lurk here.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

gosub said:


> CUNT!.



Yep.
If wanting post brexit damage makes me a cunt in your eyes then I accept that fully.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Alongside Cameron and Osborne and Clegg with their austerity, Blair and Brown with their murderous adventures in the Middle East, Major and all his crap.


It was a binary choice.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 14, 2020)

Jesus, it's like fucking groundhog day, this thread... but with only the shit bits and no romance.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yep.
> If wanting post brexit damage makes me a cunt in your eyes then I accept that fully.


Turning up two years after the event and gaslughting the place doesn't do you any favours either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Jesus, it's like fucking groundhog day, this thread... but with only the shit bits and no romance.


That's brexit for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I'm not such a long way off.
> I can spot an ally of Nigel Farage, the Tories and Stephen Yakitty Lookatme brexit voter from quite close.
> Especially you as you have declared you voted with them.
> Enjoy your new bedfellows as you make your brexit work.


Here you are calling TopCat a fascist


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What is there to deny?
> Your invention or spin on what I have supposed to have done?
> You lie.
> Plain fact.
> Give it up.


The lie you claim isn't that you have called anyone a racist without foundation, but that you have called everyone a lie without any of your actual evidence. How many people do you feel justified calling racist (for that is what you think of brexit voters) without any actual evidence to support the belief that's what they are? And even if everyone who is racist voted for brexit - which they didn't as some prominent racists supported and campaigned for remain - many non- and anti-racists voted leave. Just as there are racists and anti-racists in the labour party and its supporters and tory party and their electors. If he was still alive, Mosley would have doubtless voted remain. Doesn't mean, wouldn't mean, you are racist
 But it shows you're stupid for supposing the devils on one side and angels on the other


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Here you are calling TopCat a fascist


You what?
My eyesight is not what it was now I'm old but where is the word fascist?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

gosub said:


> Turning up two years after the event and gaslughting the place doesn't do you any favours either.


Eh?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You what?
> My eyesight is not what it was now I'm old but where is the word fascist?


Oh right, calling someone an ally of Stephen Yaxley Lennon isn't calling them a fascist

I think we have reached a new low for pedantry and comprehension on these boards

E2A now you'll tell me you haven't mentioned Yaxley Lennon


----------



## Poot (Oct 14, 2020)

Has anyone won the internet yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

Poot said:


> Has anyone won the internet yet?


Yes, philosophical has

Sadly no mention of millions of PM's of support yet tho


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The lie you claim isn't that you have called anyone a racist without foundation, but that you have called everyone a lie without any of your actual evidence. How many people do you feel justified calling racist (for that is what you think of brexit voters) without any actual evidence to support the belief that's what they are? And even if everyone who is racist voted for brexit - which they didn't as some prominent racists supported and campaigned for remain - many non- and anti-racists voted leave. Just as there are racists and anti-racists in the labour party and its supporters and tory party and their electors. If he was still alive, Mosley would have doubtless voted remain. Doesn't mean, wouldn't mean, you are racist
> But it shows you're stupid for supposing the devils on one side and angels on the other



 You lied.
Plain fact.
Broken record.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You lied.
> Plain fact.
> Broken record.


The difference isn't over what you did

It's over how many people you did it to

You cheapen calling out racists when you accuse people of being racists without any evidence or foundation for the claim, as you have done repeatedly. And you haven't denied doing that. When you said you believed everyone who disagreed with you was a brexit voter it carried all the connotations you'd freighted the term with, ie racism.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh right, calling someone an ally of Stephen Yaxley Lennon isn't calling them a fascist
> 
> I think we have reached a new low for pedantry and comprehension on these boards
> 
> E2A now you'll tell me you haven't mentioned Yaxley Lennon


I would suggest if you're looking for an expert on pedantry you look in the mirror.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The difference isn't over what you did
> 
> It's over how many people you did it to
> 
> You cheapen calling out racists when you accuse people of being racists without any evidence or foundation for the claim, as you have done repeatedly.


 No I haven't done what you accuse me of, any more than I used the word fascist in relation to TopCat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I would suggest if you're looking for an expert on pedantry you look in the mirror.


I'm not looking for an expert on pedantry, I'm looking for you to own what you say.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> No I haven't done what you accuse me of, any more than I used the word fascist in relation to TopCat.


Anyone looking at the post can readily see your meaning

If you think that meanings are only conveyed when stated explicitly I am astonished

But you were explicit as you said you assumed all brexit voters were racist so subsequent references to people as brexit voters were clearly intended to carry the racism you associated with the term

You must have really struggled with teaching eg shakespeare


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 14, 2020)

andysays said:


> Interesting* to see philosophical trying to argue for as disastrous a Brexit as possible in order to to damage the Tories etc.
> 
> Some of us were arguing for a Leave vote in the referendum for that very reason, although I guess to argue it back them was racist, but now it's entirely the opposite.
> 
> * for a certain rather narrow version of "interesting", admittedly



tbh we were all laughing are faces off at the complete clown show of May’s Brexit troubles, a result of boldly calling an election that didn’t go as planned and the utter disarray that followed with the Tories looking seriously holed below the waterline. Kind of miss those days now.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The difference isn't over what you did
> 
> It's over how many people you did it to
> 
> You cheapen calling out racists when you accuse people of being racists without any evidence or foundation for the claim, as you have done repeatedly. And you haven't denied doing that. When you said you believed everyone who disagreed with you was a brexit voter it carried all the connotations you'd freighted the term with, ie racism.



Actually, I'd take exception to this too. There was/is a whole tranch of reasons for voting Leave that have fuck all to do with race, all of which have been marginalised by racists and those who thought painting the whole thing as about race would help undo the referendum.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Anyone looking at the post can readily see your meaning
> 
> If you think that meanings are only conveyed when stated explicitly I am astonished
> 
> ...


 
If they choose to interpret it according to your parameters.

Yes I am aware of ambiguity.

That you claim to know mine, or others, or Shakespeare's 'clear intent' is quite something isn't it?
Especially when you seem to invoke the concept that meanings can be ambiguous.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2020)

Poot said:


> Has anyone won the internet yet?


I think this bit of the internet got won in about 2005 and we're like the stragglers in the London marathon bravely walking just ahead of the van that's picking up all the rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2020)

philosophical said:


> If they choose to interpret it according to your parameters.
> 
> Yes I am aware of ambiguity.
> 
> ...


I'm only asking them to use the parameters you established.

So what features do you think an ally of syl would have? Would they be racist or tend toward fascism? Would it be a fair way to describe an anti-fascist?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

What features would an ally of Stephen Yakitty Lookatme have?
Errrm.
Well he hates Muslims and urges people to vote Tory so features of those who share those characteristics would in my mind be the features of a cunt.
There might be other thing an ally would agree with too, but I can't think of them right now.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2020)

maomao said:


> I think this bit of the internet got won in about 2005 and we're like the stragglers in the London marathon bravely walking just ahead of the van that's picking up all the rubbish.


Nah its more like the festive scene... We are the stragglers hanging around after carrying on responsibly while the scene itself has evolved towards being more mainstream and throw away. 

Modern Internet is sharing other people memes and harvesting likes here could always do that and more


----------



## brogdale (Oct 14, 2020)

Meanwhile...the clever money is in toilets:


----------



## philosophical (Oct 14, 2020)

I used to think the lorries went to Dover and such, and the drivers used the time during the sea crossing for whatever ablutions and refreshment they wanted and needed.
That is going to change with enforced probably lengthy parking on the concreted countryside.
I think there are moves for drivers from Ireland going to Roscoff, or Cherbourg or Zeebrugge to build in work payment of some kind, and sleep time, whilst the ferries cross the seas.
One implication of that, if it happens, is that the EU could isolate the remaining UK without damaging the Republic. Such ideas would have developed after Priti Patel suggested the UK post brexit could starve the Irish into submission.
Personally I would like to see the 'they need us more than we need them' concept put to the test.
For me it is a given that everybody needs each other, but the UK voted against collaboration with the brexit result, leave meaning leave and all that.
If I remember correctly the numbers are according to trade, that the UK's activity with the EU is over 40% but no remaining EU member state does more than 11% of it's business with the UK...though I suspect it may be higher for the Republic.
The EU states will go about their business post brexit with each other, whilst the UK does it's business down the Portaloo.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 14, 2020)




----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Oct 14, 2020)

Sorry for the derail but:
has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.


----------



## Supine (Oct 14, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Sorry for the derail but:
> has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
> I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.



Well tomorrow is so called deadline day for making a deal or not. So that deadline will probably slip by. 

While Grant Shapps mentions flights might be grounded on Jan 1st of an agreement isn't made. 

So not much going on


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2020)

I think tomorrow's deadline has already become a not-really deadline. What BJ said recently was that it would apply unless there was a deal "in sight", which there obviously is.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> Sorry for the derail but:
> has there been any news related to the post brexit trade deal and transition period in the last few days?
> I feell I might have missed them amongsst the handbag at dawn sheenanigans.



Nothing of note has happened in the last 30 odd pages, at this rate it might be best to check a newspaper tbh.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 15, 2020)

Sorry, too, for taking the thread off argument but the anti-vaxxer I mentioned somewhere is also fundamentalist Brexit-means-Brexit. He's quoted A solution for the Irish border | BrexitCentral , particularly:



> There are, at present, three economic borders with respect to the island of Ireland. First, there is what we might call the “Celtic Sea border”, between Ireland and the rest of the EU. Ireland is in a common travel area with the UK and is not in the Schengen area, so there are in principle passport checks between Ireland and the rest of the EU at the Celtic Sea border.
> 
> Second, there is what we might call the “Irish Sea border”, between Great Britain and the island of Ireland. There are currently controls on the importation of live animals into Northern Ireland from Great Britain.
> 
> Third, there is the “North-South” border between Northern Ireland and the Irish Republic, including some 275 crossing points. This border (either side of which there are a large number of regulatory, tax and legal differences) is controlled via a combination of administrative cooperation, whistle-blowing, auditing, site raids by customs, tax and regulatory enforcement officials, occasional random spot-checks on roads leading up to and at the border (yes, that happens now), and cameras and other physical infrastructure at the border (yes, that is there already).



He's trying to say a North-South border won't be needed, even under no deal: "Under no deal, the UK would presumably considerably increase its number of customs officials in Northern Ireland, " That seems unlikely to me - there's no reason for the UK to try to prevent exports into Ireland being EU compliant. Why would the UK give a shit? And what's to stop imports that are not EU compliant coming perfectly legally into one of the NI ports (from the US for example) and transported around NI perfectly legally and then just slipped over the border for export to the rest of the EU with no further checks?

The rest of the article has a lot of 'could' and 'would' in there, with a reliance on UK customs working closely with EU customs. Again, I'm not sure why UK customs would bother given that we're no longer in the EU - I'd have thought they'd see it as an EU problem. If there is a deal, then these things might be built into it but, again, it seems to show a touching belief that the Johnson government would actually comply after the deal was struck. The anti-vaxxer is incidentally claiming that it wasn't the Johnson government that went back on the Withdrawal Agreement (as even the tories admitted, although I don't really know what happened), but the dastardly EU that is breaking the agreement by demanding that the UK government give up its sovereignty.

The general idea is that the UK is acting perfectly responsibly during negotiations but the EU is making unreasonable and underhanded demands. As far as I can see they just want to make sure that the Irish border is not flooded with non-compliant imports that can just be transferred on to other EU countries.

Any thoughts people? I'm out of my depth here


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 15, 2020)

If they’re an anti-vaxxer you won’t be able to counter any of their arguments with facts or reason, so little benefit in engaging with them.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 15, 2020)

True - but it's not him but other people reading it that are important. He comes out with very complex arguments that on the surface can be quite convincing. I need short pieces that puncture what he's saying.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> True - but it's not him but other people reading it that are important. He comes out with very complex arguments that on the surface can be quite convincing. I need short pieces that puncture what he's saying.




The  Celtic Sea border is for people and not goods. Eire and the UK are not in Schengen, therefore checks are made on people entering the Eire/UK Common Travel Area. Checks are not made on goods entering that area, nothing will change here.




> There are currently controls on the importation of live animals into Northern Ireland from Great Britain.



As there are on imports of animals from the EU to the island of Ireland and to Great Britain. This is an animal welfare issue and disease control measure. It is not a customs operation, people are not inspected.

As to his third point, yes there are controls between the six counties and the Eire, but as anyone who goes there can attest they are virtually invisible, the only time you'll notice them is during intelligence led operations, exactly the same as the border between France and Belgium, Germany and Austria and so on. Once the UK properly leaves the EU it is free to pursue differing standards for goods than are demanded by the EU. To prevent possible lower standard goods entering the EU from the UK, or indeed the UK from the EU (yeah, right, etc.) a permanent physical border with customs inspections will most likely be required.

So yeah, he's downplaying what will happen by highlighting the watered down arrangements that are already in place to suggest that the new arrangements will be pretty much the same. Without some kind of customs union the new arrangements will be much more invasive and visible.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> The anti-vaxxer is incidentally claiming that it wasn't the Johnson government that went back on the Withdrawal Agreement (as even the tories admitted, although I don't really know what happened), but the dastardly EU that is breaking the agreement by demanding that the UK government give up its sovereignty.
> 
> The general idea is that the UK is acting perfectly responsibly during negotiations but the EU is making unreasonable and underhanded demands. As far as I can see they just want to make sure that the Irish border is not flooded with non-compliant imports that can just be transferred on to other EU countries.


don't know about the rest of it, but the EU certainly didn't break the agreement. They simply insisted we complied in full, which - given that we had signed up to it in good faith, and it was a legally binding agreement - strikes me as reasonable.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2020)

If the roles were reversed and the UK were faced with an emergent , openly deceitful truculent banana republic along its borders, the anti vaxxer would be calling for an economic blockade


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The  Celtic Sea border is for people and not goods. Eire and the UK are not in Schengen, therefore checks are made on people entering the Eire/UK Common Travel Area. Checks are not made on goods entering that area, nothing will change here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If a hard border goes in, it will be an EU border. Run by them.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2020)

yep - that was the UKG idea- push responsibility back + hold up hands with shock horror expression and claim its not their fault.

calling the UK a banana republic is possibly a bit gracious tbf.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If a hard border goes in, it will be an EU border. Run by them.




And when the EU move the refugees from their internment camps in Greece to a new one in Donegal, one with no fences and an arrow pointing east..?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2020)

Brexit was sold as taking back control of the UK borders.
If the UK does not have border control on the island of Ireland then there is no brexit.
If the EU has a border there (which is geographically practically impossible for the whole length of it) then it will be like a valve with restrictions going south and a complete unrestricted flow of people and stuff going north.
No brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And when the EU move the refugees from their internment camps in Greece to a new one in Donegal, one with no fences and an arrow pointing east..?


A bit far fetched...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Brexit was sold as taking back control of the UK borders.



No it wasn’t, as you are so fond of boring people with; it was a binary choice, leave the EU or remain. There were myriad reasons for either.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> yep - that was the UKG idea- push responsibility back + hold up hands with shock horror expression and claim its not their fault.
> 
> calling the UK a banana republic is possibly a bit gracious tbf.


Yes we have no bananas


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A bit far fetched...




The EU allowed them to mass up in Calais for years when we were all in a union. So following an acrimonious divorce why on earth wouldn’t they allow all who wanted to to be taken to Ireland and allowed to wander in to the U.K.? Kills the issue of what to do with them and shits in the face of the headbanger bexiteers in the British government and media.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The EU allowed them to mass up in Calais for years when we were all in a union. So following an acrimonious divorce why on earth wouldn’t they allow all who wanted to to be taken to Ireland and allowed to wander in to the U.K.? Kills the issue of what to do with them and shits in the face of the headbanger bexiteers in the British government and media.


You'd soon see how free movement is within the uk

Be a shock for those who have forgotten the miners strike and exclusion orders


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes we have no bananas




Plenty of marrows though, we can become a marrow republic.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You'd soon see how free movement is within the uk
> 
> Be a shock for those who have forgotten the miners strike and exclusion orders


Never forget.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Plenty of marrows though, we can become a marrow republic.




"
Antonyms of REPUBLIC
autarchy, tyranny, dictatorship, monocracy, despotism, monarchy, totalitarianism, autocracy."


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No it wasn’t, as you are so fond of boring people with; it was a binary choice, leave the EU or remain. There were myriad reasons for either.


Yes
You are right
However I interpret the word 'Leave' as implying a border.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> "
> Antonyms of REPUBLIC
> autarchy, tyranny, dictatorship, monocracy, despotism, monarchy, totalitarianism, autocracy."


we have a kakocracy


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes
> You are right
> However I interpret the word 'Leave' as implying a border.


or a departure

or a holiday


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

Brexit: No 10 startled by EU insistence that UK accept trade terms
					

Bloc’s stance apparently taken as challenge to Boris Johnson’s threat to walk out on talks




					www.theguardian.com
				




This wont go down well.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: No 10 startled by EU insistence that UK accept trade terms
> 
> 
> Bloc’s stance apparently taken as challenge to Boris Johnson’s threat to walk out on talks
> ...



Johnson's position is to go for no deal and sort a deal out in the new year, the EU know that, they also know which side stands to suffer most from this (both sides will suffer, one more than the other though) and are fed up with pretending to play his games. S'alright though, the economy is buoyant to ride this shit out...


----------



## maomao (Oct 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> S'alright though, the economy is buoyant to ride this shit out...


Or rather the corona depression is deep enough to hide it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 15, 2020)

maomao said:


> Or rather the corona depression is deep enough to hide it.



The plan was in place long before the plague showed up. But yeah, they'll try and blame that too. The strategy is led by Cummings, a man who thinks maths will solve all the answers, but not being a mathematician fails to understand the limitations of maths. Boris is impressed cos Cummings can count higher than 10 without taking his socks off.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 15, 2020)

The EU have called BoZo's bluff, to which his solution is to bluff some more. He doesn't seem to twig on that bluffing is a one time strategy that if it fails once it fails forever.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The EU have called BoZo's bluff, to which his solution is to bluff some more. He doesn't seem to twig on that bluffing is a one time strategy that if it fails once it fails forever.



Also there's no sense in bluffing when everyone can see your cards except you.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The EU have called BoZo's bluff, to which his solution is to bluff some more. He doesn't seem to twig on that bluffing is a one time strategy that if it fails once it fails forever.


Is he bluffing? Maybe. What could tip his hand though is if the EU leaders mock him and the UK at their summit this week.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 15, 2020)

When you back a rat into a corner, it stars biting as its got nothing to lose, you will still kill it with a stick eventually tho'


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also there's no sense in bluffing when everyone can see your cards except you.



🏆


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 234456


Building facilities to avoid Operation Stack regularly happening is a good thing anyway Brexit or no.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

I think this EU summit is going to finish negotiations and we get no deal. 








						Brexit: No 10 startled by EU insistence that UK accept trade terms
					

Bloc’s stance apparently taken as challenge to Boris Johnson’s threat to walk out on talks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think this EU summit is going to finish negotiations and we get no deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think this summit is going to finish negotiations and indeed Boris Johnson as he blinks and swallows it


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Building facilities to avoid Operation Stack regularly happening is a good thing anyway Brexit or no.


It doesn't 'regularly happen,' but thanks to Brexit, rows and rows of lorries will be an everyday occurrence. 









						Operation Stack - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2020)

editor said:


> It doesn't 'regularly happen,' but thanks to Brexit, rows and rows of lorries will be an everyday occurrence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stack has been superseded by Brock now editor 
Easy to wonder if _Brock _isn't some sort of portmanteau combining _Brexit _and _Cock-up._


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Stack has been superseded by Brock now editor
> Easy to wonder if _Brock _isn't some sort of portmanteau combining _Brexit _and _Cock-up._
> 
> View attachment 234457


Sounds like Badgers' company. He submitted a speculative tender using the mandatory pizza t&c


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Stack has been superseded by Brock now editor
> Easy to wonder if _Brock _isn't some sort of portmanteau combining _Brexit _and _Cock-up._
> 
> View attachment 234457


Sounds like a world-beater already 



> In January 2019, a rehearsal for part of Operation Brock was carried out, using the former Manston Airport as a lorry park.[4] It was criticised for being unrepresentative of the actual situation that would occur in reality. On the first day of the test, only 89 of the planned 150 lorries turned up for the rehearsal.
> 
> The contraflow has been the height of issues however. As Operation Brock was not used due to Brexit being delayed, the decision was made to partially revert the M20 back to its original state. This was done by reopening the eastbound carriageway fully, and keeping the steel barrier in the event that Operation Brock would have to be activated again in the following months due to the uncertainty of Brexit. The westbound carriageway has stayed at 50 mph. This has decreased safety to motorists travelling on the M20 whether Operation Brock is in force or not, as if they breakdown they are in a live lane and there are no warnings to other traffic like there are on Smart Motorways. In the first few weeks of the contraflow in force, many accidents happened on the stretch, and with no hard shoulder emergency vehicles found it hard to get to the scene.


----------



## Winot (Oct 15, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> When you back a rat into a corner, it stars biting as its got nothing to lose, you will still kill it with a stick eventually tho'



That’s the first decent Brexit plan I’ve seen.


----------



## rubbershoes (Oct 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think this EU summit is going to finish negotiations and we get no deal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's what everyone voted for


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2020)

editor said:


> Sounds like a world-beater already


It's a shitshow; I had to drive through its first iteration a few times...slow and confusing.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2020)

Facilities are being planned and built in about ten different locations, not only the traditional Operation Stack area.
It is about a desperate attempt to deal with the practical fall out of the Brexit victory, not about creating a 'good thing'.
It isn't about something that would happen without brexit, but something that is happening because of Brexit.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2020)

Barnier is coming to London next week.
I suppose the EU is bending over backwards to allow the Tories to make a deal on behalf of....the Tories I suppose.
He said again that the EU have made their position 'crystal clear'.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 15, 2020)

David Frost from the UK is 'disappointed'.
Excellent.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Stack has been superseded by Brock now editor
> Easy to wonder if _Brock _isn't some sort of portmanteau combining _Brexit _and _Cock-up._
> 
> View attachment 234457



The 'problems' section of that wiki article does not bode well.

E2a: Which section I now see editor has quoted in full already. As you were.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2020)

Very good thread here I think








						Thread by @pmdfoster on Thread Reader App
					

Thread by @pmdfoster: Right. We are getting to the twitchy bit now. Who will fold first as the #Brexit crucible intensifies? The EU side appears to bet that Boris Johnson will. But are they right? Latest @FT...…




					threadreaderapp.com
				



or on twitter


ETA: or better still the FT full piece



> Who will blink first as EU-UK talks near danger zone?
> There are political and psychological limits to what Boris Johnson can concede
> _Some Brexiters will feel that Boris Johnson has learnt the lessons of his predecessor’s failed negotiations by threatening to walk away but this approach has worked only up to a point_
> *October 15, 2020 2:56 pm by Peter Foster*
> ...


----------



## editor (Oct 15, 2020)

It's a never ending shower of shit. But at least people can look at their blue passports when they're stuck in the airport.









						Grant Shapps admits UK-EU flights could be grounded in the event of no-deal Brexit
					

‘We expect the EU to bring forward contingency measures,’ said the transport secretary




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2020)

editor said:


> It's a never ending shower of shit. But at least people can look at their blue passports when they're stuck in the airport.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course this particular shitshow will be masked by the fact that, by Dec 31st, there won't be any airlines left anyway.


----------



## Supine (Oct 15, 2020)

The fact that Boris is spending any time on this while a plague is starting to overtake the UK is shameful. His priorities are so in the wrong place. That's when he's working and not going missing for weeks.


----------



## MrSki (Oct 15, 2020)

Don't worry the economy is saved!


----------



## mx wcfc (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Don't worry the economy is saved!



Well, I'm pleased (I think) for the people of Cote D'Ivoire, but what's the betting some tory businessman has "interests" there and need to be able to carry on stripping Africa's wealth?  Do they have oil?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Don't worry the economy is saved!



Word is the biggy with the Isle of Sheppey is set to be signed tomorrow.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 15, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Don't worry the economy is saved!




Five'll get you ten he thought he was doing a deal with Ireland and didn't notice the flag was backwards and the weather was better than usual.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2020)

"Would you mind doing a quick Riverdance?"


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 15, 2020)

philosophical said:


> David Frost from the UK is 'disappointed'.
> Excellent.



The afterlife not being all it's cracked up to be, hardly surprising.


----------



## Roadkill (Oct 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Word is the biggy with the Isle of Sheppey is set to be signed tomorrow.



Your sources are wrong. It's with Lundy.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

Someone do a poll on who blinks first. I might even offer odds.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 15, 2020)

But not right now as its unclear. I lean to no deal.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 15, 2020)

Supine said:


> The fact that Boris is spending any time on this while a plague is starting to overtake the UK is shameful. His priorities are so in the wrong place. That's when he's working and not going missing for weeks.



The idea of taking the country into the unknown of full Brexit in the middle of a pandemic is just insane to me. Fuck it, give it another 12 months transition period, somethings are more important than Muh Sovereignity.


----------



## mx wcfc (Oct 15, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The idea of taking the country into the unknown of full Brexit in the middle of a pandemic is just insane to me. Fuck it, give it another 12 months transition period, somethings are more important than Muh Sovereignity.


well, yes exactly - but this way they get to blame the post Brexit clusterfuck on the EU *and* Covid.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 15, 2020)

I reckon BJ swore on Thatcher's bones in front of Rupert Murdoch that he wouldn't extend for any reason.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 16, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Your sources are wrong. It's with Lundy.


Rockall.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I reckon BJ swore on Thatcher's bones in front of Rupert Murdoch that he wouldn't extend for any reason.


He swore in front of the Tory party and packed the cabinet with brexit supporters. Going to be hard to still allow the French 84% of channel cod.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> allow the French 84% of channel cod.


its a bit of a selective stat that one
From what i understand the channel is not as key a cod fishing area compared to more open northern waters, and the area around the channel isles is clearly closer to france. Percentages change per fish type and per area


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

ska invita said:


> its a bit of a selective stat that one
> From what i understand the channel is not as key a cod fishing area compared to more open northern waters, and the area around the channel isles is clearly closer to france. Percentages change per fish type and per area


I think what you're driving at is the volume rather than the ratios is the important thing


----------



## Anju (Oct 16, 2020)

Probably best if we don't gain control of a bigger slice of the fish pie. 

"Attempts to enshrine in law a commitment to keep fishing quotas within the sustainable limits advised by scientists failed, and an amendment aimed at banning supertrawlers from marine protected areas was also defeated by 331 votes to 197."

MPs reject attempts to strengthen post-Brexit fishing protections


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2020)

Soylent green fish flavoured fingers in your supermarket next year. Piss taking aside, this is fucking criminal


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Soylent green fish flavoured fingers in your supermarket next year. Piss taking aside, this is fucking criminal


What is?


----------



## Crispy (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What is?


Overfishing


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Crispy said:


> Overfishing


Overfishing isn't a brexit thing though. It's been going on for decades.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2020)

I have a niche and long standing beef about the decimation of stocks and attitudes if successive administrations towards it.maybe not directly brexit but... in other news , my auto correct wants  to change Brexit to Brecht. Maybe it has had enough as well


----------



## Flavour (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Overfishing isn't a brexit thing though. It's been going on for decades.



But allowing super-trawlers into protected areas, where they should be banned, is a Brexit thing. Cos it's against EU rules


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2020)

Lol lol lol its a no deal last turn if the card time.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Boris Johnson tells UK: prepare for a no-deal Brexit
					

Prime minister says EU must change its approach to talks if deal to be reached




					www.theguardian.com
				




Sounded pretty clear to me. I wonder what the French hear?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Sounded pretty clear to me. I wonder what the French hear?


Nothing, because that's exactly what he said. Just the meaningless opposite of "If they don't compromise, we'll inevitably cave in".


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2020)

ND is a scorched earth policy by the brits. economic carnage, whatever the views on brexit. the EU will face this down. time to lay some bets. happy 2021


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Boris Johnson tells UK: prepare for a no-deal Brexit
> 
> 
> Prime minister says EU must change its approach to talks if deal to be reached
> ...



means the rest of the Brexit backing sponsors will be moving money rather rapidly out of the United Kingdom as well


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

I wonder if paddy power are offering odds.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Boris Johnson tells UK: prepare for a no-deal Brexit
> 
> 
> Prime minister says EU must change its approach to talks if deal to be reached
> ...


For some inexplicable reason the supra state doesn't believe Johnson.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I wonder if paddy power are offering odds.




some sites offering extention past 1st january


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Boris Johnson tells UK: prepare for a no-deal Brexit
> 
> 
> Prime minister says EU must change its approach to talks if deal to be reached
> ...


'That twat Cummings is still writing the script.'

Plus:

'Last time, Johnson collapsed on just about everything. He's weak.'

btw where was 'We'll get a deal like Canada's' during Johnson's pro-Brexit campaigning? Wasn't he guaranteeing a continuation of free trade with the EU? Canada doesn't have free trade with the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Macron's arse must be fluttering a bit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Macron's arse must be fluttering a bit.


Why? UK loses more than France if this fucks up.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Nothing, because that's exactly what he said. Just the meaningless opposite of "If they don't compromise, we'll inevitably cave in".


Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.

Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.

He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

Johnson can't even generate the expressions/body language to pretend that he thinks Cummings' posturing is serious:


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why? UK loses more than France if this fucks up.


Elections soon. Pissed off coastal communities, getting blamed for intransigence.  Etc


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.
> 
> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.
> 
> He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.


Yeah, Canada's share of the fishing rights around Europe was never a problem. Why pick on the UK over the issue?


----------



## Winot (Oct 16, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> some sites offering extention past 1st january



Not so easy





__





						StackPath
					





					www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Elections soon. Pissed off coastal communities, getting blamed for intransigence.  Etc


Is that how people will see it in France. _Macron's intransigence_ blocking a deal with that nice Mr Johnson? I don't think so.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.
> 
> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.
> 
> He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.


which is good as much of the uk's fishing is already in foreign hands so whatever johnson agrees (or indeed doesn't agree) will unravel








						Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?
					

Reality Check investigates the value of foreign-owned British fishing quotas.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.
> 
> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.
> 
> He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.


Which bit are you surprised by?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Elections soon. Pissed off coastal communities, getting blamed for intransigence.  Etc


elections in 2022

by which time johnson will have royally fucked off any remaining friends he has on the continent


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

If Johnson is foolish enough to allow no deal, he's in for a shock at the political fallout. I would wager he'd be gone within six months. The theory of turning Kent into a giant lorry park is one thing. The reality is going to hit hard.


----------



## A380 (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> elections in 2022
> 
> by which time johnson will have been royally fucked off by the Tories who will have a new leader. And so might pass the blame on.



FTFY


----------



## A380 (Oct 16, 2020)

Anyway, looks like the EU have called today. 

Now it’s time to see what DePffell actually has in his hand.

I worry it’s going to be jack of Herts, nine of diamonds, two of clubs, the yellow three from UNO and Mrs Bunn the Baker’s wife...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 16, 2020)

Winot said:


> Not so easy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's easy enough to do if both sides want it. It's a political issue rather than a technical one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

A380 said:


> Anyway, looks like the EU have called today.
> 
> Now it’s time to see what DePffell actually has in his hand.
> 
> I worry it’s going to be jack of Herts, nine of diamonds, two of clubs, the yellow three from UNO and Mrs Bunn the Baker’s wife...


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

The UK won't 'go for' a no deal.
If they want the EU, whose systems, structures and rules it knows full well having helped shape them over 40 years, to change and bend to the will of the UK I think the UK will be disappointed.
The EU has been consistent, the UK can't keep it's word ('limited and specific') so it is very likely the EU will tell the UK to fuck off.
The UK won't be 'going for' anything, it will be managing failure.
The way that cunt Johnson was reading from the Cummings statement today indicates to me he doesn't know what the fuck he is doing and what is occouring. He looks like he is asking Gove and the other nutters to take a lead on something he can't handle, whilst he is the mouthpiece.
Oven ready my arse.
Anyway bring on the suffering and disintegration of the Union and the entire country, can't happen quickly enough for me. Brexit voters have said in the past they'd rather eat their own shit than admit they were wrong. Shit for everybody then, at least I have some salt and brown sauce stockpiled.
'We knew what we were voting for, you lost get over it'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Anyway bring on the suffering and disintegration of the Union and the entire country, can't happen quickly enough for me.


oh i think this is one of those cases where you ought to have been careful what you wished for


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> oh i think this is one of those cases where you ought to have been careful what you wished for


Have been? Or be?
I wished for national suffering previously, and I wish for it more ardently now.
It won't be at all nice, but I can be smug in the knowledge it isn't down to me.
I lost and will focus on getting over it.


----------



## editor (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.
> 
> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.
> 
> He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.


Johnson is full of fucking shit. And here you are defending him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Have been? Or be?
> I wished for national suffering previously, and I wish for it more ardently now.
> It won't be at all nice, but I can be smug in the knowledge it isn't down to me.
> I lost and will focus on getting over it.


yeh it's been four years now and you still haven't got on it let alone over it


----------



## 2hats (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal


Prep for an island full of criminals and rampant bigotry?


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Elections soon. Pissed off coastal communities, getting blamed for intransigence.  Etc


lol what. You reckon the pissed off coastal communities of France are begging Macron to cave?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

2hats said:


> Prep for an island full of criminals and rampant bigotry?


it's one of the few subjects on which johnson knows his stuff


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.


They're actually asking for more, but it seems to have escaped them that it takes two sides to do a deal, and it's up to the EU to offer what it wants.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh it's been four years now and you still haven't got on it let alone over it


Why focus on me rather than brexit?
Have you anything to say about the events today?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

The President of the European Council Charles Michel has just spoken on my television set and referenced peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement.
This is not something that has melted away, or disappeared because abusing me for mentioning it means it doesn't count, it is still there as a centrsl feature of brexit.
Even now.
Two different systems with a border in between.
A circle yet to be squared even though 'it's been four years now'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Why focus on me rather than brexit?
> Have you anything to say about the events today?


if you don't want people to reply to your posts, it's very simple - don't submit them

as for the events of today i think it's rather too early to comment as it is unclear for who's consumption he meant them. i am not persuaded it is people in this this country, as this government and its predecessors have done precious little to do anything meaningful to help lay the foundations for a successful future outside the eu on a no deal basis. and future negotiations are scheduled.

unlike you i hope things don't crash and burn for people in this country, for them to be trapped in a johnsonian hellhole. i hope that however it ends it ends with johnson and his ilk alongside all those others who wished the people of the country ill. which i suppose includes you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The President of the European Council Charles Michel has just spoken on my television set and referenced peace in Northern Ireland and the Good Friday Agreement.
> This is not something that has melted away, or disappeared because abusing me for mentioning it means it doesn't count, it is still there as a centrsl feature of brexit.


i don't think messages from the eu have been a central feature of brexit


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if you don't want people to reply to your posts, it's very simple - don't submit them
> 
> as for the events of today i think it's rather too early to comment as it is unclear for who's consumption he meant them. i am not persuaded it is people in this this country, as this government and its predecessors have done precious little to do anything meaningful to help lay the foundations for a successful future outside the eu on a no deal basis. and future negotiations are scheduled.
> 
> unlike you i hope things don't crash and burn for people in this country, for them to be trapped in a johnsonian hellhole. i hope that however it ends it ends with johnson and his ilk alongside all those others who wished the people of the country ill. which i suppose includes you.


You think what you do is 'reply'?


----------



## Ax^ (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Reuters is reporting Johnson as saying that the EU has abandoned the idea of a free trade deal and unless the EU makes fundamental changes to its approach, the UK will go for no deal.
> 
> Johnson has said UK wanted nothing more than Canada-style deal.
> 
> He has also reportedly said that given that the EU have refused to negotiate seriously he has concluded the UK should get ready for an Australia style deal and has suggested businesses get ready for such an arrangement.



oh fuck Boris


hopefully he force to request for an extension and catch covid for a second time on the same day


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You think what you do is 'reply'?



yes


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think messages from the eu have been a central feature of brexit


The situation regarding the land border in Ireland has always been a central feature of brexit, as Charles Michel highlighted again today.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 234569
> yes


Oh. I thought it was your thirst for continual snide digs.
My bad.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The situation regarding the land border in Ireland has always been a central feature of brexit, as Charles Michel highlighted again today.


no, no it hasn't

it only became a central feature of brexit when theresa may unilaterally decided that many possible exits involving remaining within the single market or customs union would be discarded. if, for example, the uk had applied for efta membership or sought some other arrangement which saw continued membership of the eea it would never have been a feature of brexit at all


----------



## sleaterkinney (Oct 16, 2020)

BING!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> View attachment 234575
> 
> BING!


i think it's johnson who is oven ready and not his shitty deal

the trouble will be finding an oven which is large enough to fit his form


----------



## BassJunkie (Oct 16, 2020)

"Australia style deal" _For Fuck's Sake_, there is no deal between the EU and Australia. He means no deal, he's lying again and people will lap it up ("Woo, we'll have a an Austrialian style deal")


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

BassJunkie said:


> "Australia style deal" _For Fuck's Sake_, there is no deal between the EU and Australia. He means no deal, he's lying again and people will lap it up ("Woo, we'll have a an Austrialian style deal")


we'd find ourselves in precisely the position we're in today as they are still negotiating it








						Towards an EU-Australia Trade Agreement
					

The European Union has launched negotiations for a comprehensive and ambitious trade agreement with Australia.




					ec.europa.eu


----------



## purves grundy (Oct 16, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> View attachment 234575
> 
> BING!


Reaching net zero _what_ by 2050??


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no, no it hasn't
> 
> it only became a central feature of brexit when theresa may unilaterally decided that many possible exits involving remaining within the single market or customs union would be discarded. if, for example, the uk had applied for efta membership or sought some other arrangement which saw continued membership of the eea it would never have been a feature of brexit at all


Theresa May highlighted the Irish border issue even before the brexit referendum her very self.
It is not my little obsession but a significant feature of what Lord Buckethead predicted, this shitshow.
If you believe (as you seem to be saying in your post, correct me if I am wrong) that concerns about peace in Ireland belong in some kind of dustbin that is a bit of a manoever to manage simply to get in another dig at me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

BassJunkie said:


> "Australia style deal" _For Fuck's Sake_, there is no deal between the EU and Australia. He means no deal, he's lying again and people will lap it up ("Woo, we'll have a an Austrialian style deal")


i've found a draft poster from the british tourist authority's 2021 campaign


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Theresa May highlighted the Irish border issue even before the brexit referendum her very self.
> It is not my little obsession but a significant feature of what Lord Buckethead predicted, this shitshow.
> If you believe (as you seem to be saying in your post, correct me if I am wrong) that concerns about peace in Ireland belong in some kind of dustbin that is a bit of a manoever to manage simply to get in another dig at me.


what i believe is that there are many scenarios for departure from the european union in which the safety of the good friday agreement would have been assured from the start. as i made clear in my post. in any case it's not 'peace in ireland' but 'pacification in the six counties' in which sinn fein have assumed a prominent role in upholding british rule there, with sinn fein mlas becoming ministers of the crown, no less. anyone who has been following with attention the progress of the good friday agreement will agree with alistair mcintyre that it is the death of irish republicanism that is sought. it was not a stepping stone on the road to a united ireland. if a united ireland results from the current situation then it's serendipitous. but a united ireland, i think, was not by itself the goal of irish republicans over the past century. a 32 county state which retained the dubious services of fianna fail or fine gael would be as foul as the partition states it superseded.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If Johnson is foolish enough to allow no deal, he's in for a shock at the political fallout. I would wager he'd be gone within six months. The theory of turning Kent into a giant lorry park is one thing. The reality is going to hit hard.


I agree. He has the brexit wing of the tories totally entrenched and just behind him. Ahead is treacherous. He has to move.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I agree. He has the brexit wing of the tories totally entrenched and just behind him. Ahead is treacherous. He has to move.


or lock himself in his office and take out the whisky


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

killer b said:


> lol what. You reckon the pissed off coastal communities of France are begging Macron to cave?


Not at the moment.  But when they get fuck all instead of something they will blame Macron. Loads of countries leaders will give them a lead. Macron and Barnier are likely to carry the can amongst the 27 and their people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not at the moment.  But when they get fuck all instead of something they will blame Macron. Loads of countries leaders will give them a lead. Macron and Barnier are likely to carry the can amongst the 27 and their people.


i fear you're over optimistic


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2020)

Do you think the same will happen in Britain's pissed-off coastal communities? The intransigence of Johnson blamed instead of the perfidious union?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what i believe is that there are many scenarios for departure from the european union in which the safety of the good friday agreement would have been assured from the start. as i made clear in my post. in any case it's not 'peace in ireland' but 'pacification in the six counties' in which sinn fein have assumed a prominent role in upholding british rule there, with sinn fein mlas becoming ministers of the crown, no less. anyone who has been following with attention the progress of the good friday agreement will agree with alistair mcintyre that it is the death of irish republicanism that is sought. it was not a stepping stone on the road to a united ireland. if a united ireland results from the current situation then it's serendipitous. but a united ireland, i think, was not by itself the goal of irish republicans over the past century. a 32 county state which retained the dubious services of fianna fail or fine gael would be as foul as the partition states it superseded.



If you are saying Irish Republicanism, is about nationalism then I agree it is a pile of chite, because in my view nationalism is a pile of chite.
I disagree with your premise that departure from the EU could have happened with the safety of the GFA 'assured'.
Unless you mean it would have been some kind of pretend departure, what used to be called brexit in name only. The more sophisticated might even call it a 'customs union', which to my mind would not be 'leave' as voted for.
I repeat for the millionth time, if 'departure' or 'leave' means two different systems side by side then there is a border in between. That is what puts the GFA at risk.
Again there could be an unspoken 'turn a blind eye' situation, which pleases the Ealing Comedy Whisky Galore fans I suppose, but in that situation eventually it would be pointed out that the Emperor has no clothes.
However I do agree that if a united Ireland comes out of all this it would almost be by accident, but it wouldn't be brexit as voted for.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

killer b said:


> Do you think the same will happen in Britain's pissed-off coastal communities? The intransigence of Johnson blamed instead of the perfidious union?


Our long pissed off coastal communities are likely quite excited at the moment. I just regret that it's the tories leading us into this. 
Labour would have done it far better.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 16, 2020)

Interesting that the pound and the markets have reacted to today's various pronouncements with total indifference.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> If you are saying Irish Republicanism, is about nationalism then I agree it is a pile of chite, because in my view nationalism is a pile of chite.
> I disagree with your premise that departure from the EU could have happened with the safety of the GFA 'assured'.
> Unless you mean it would have been some kind of pretend departure, what used to be called brexit in name only. The more sophisticated might even call it a 'customs union', which to my mind would not be 'leave' as voted for.
> I repeat for the millionth time, if 'departure' or 'leave' means two different systems side by side then there is a border in between. That is what puts the GFA at risk.
> ...


irish republicanism has always had a class dimension from wolfe tone to the present, it's not a comfy middle-class philosophy. 

you can deny whatever you please. but there was no requirement on any government to quit the eea, to quit the single market, to quit the customs union. no one ever voted not to enter efta. 

lest we forget the question and answers available on 23/6/16 were

no opinion on efta, the eea, the single market, the customs union was sought.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Interesting that the pound and the markets have reacted to today's various pronouncements with total indifference.


and it is interesting because...


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Interesting that the pound and the markets have reacted to today's various pronouncements with total indifference.


Seems that we're not alone in not believing a word that Johnson says.


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 16, 2020)

2hats said:


> Prep for an island full of criminals and rampant bigotry?


Similar to Jersey!


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Our long pissed off coastal communities are likely quite excited at the moment. I just regret that it's the tories leading us into this.
> Labour would have done it far better.


TBH it's all pretty academic what the various coastal communities would do in the event of no deal, as there's going to be a deal. But I find it pretty unlikely that there will be much support in France for what's widely considered to be an act of nationalist hubris on the part of the English, even if it all ended in tears.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> and it is interesting because...



Because since 2016 they have reacted strongly to pretty much any such pronouncement or any indications about which way the wind is blowing, which implies there is something different about today's flounce.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

Top lols from the Guardian's live feed:


----------



## tommers (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not at the moment.  But when they get fuck all instead of something they will blame Macron. Loads of countries leaders will give them a lead. Macron and Barnier are likely to carry the can amongst the 27 and their people.



It's true.  We hold all the cards.


----------



## Mezzer (Oct 16, 2020)

Has anyone heard of such an expression? I haven’t!

"Johnson said he was making the decision to prepare for no deal with _*“a high heart”*_. "  Obviously, 'light heart', doesn't quite cut it, umm, what shall we use then.....


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> irish republicanism has always had a class dimension from wolfe tone to the present, it's not a comfy middle-class philosophy.
> 
> you can deny whatever you please. but there was no requirement on any government to quit the eea, to quit the single market, to quit the customs union. no one ever voted not to enter efta.
> 
> ...


No-one's opinion was even sought on leaving the EU. Just a binary yes/no. Opinion implies some thought processes and commentary on the matter under discussion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Because since 2016 they have reacted strongly to pretty much any such pronouncement or any indications about which way the wind is blowing, which implies there is something different about today's flounce.


perhaps they're as sick of boris johnson's fartwittery as anyone else.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

tommers said:


> It's true.  We hold all the cards.


No one does. It's a mess. 
Thinking there will not be a backlash against Macron is optimistic. All those exports heading to the UK. All that produce. 
He wont look like Cock Robin tomorrow.


----------



## killer b (Oct 16, 2020)

what's happening tomorrow?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No-one's opinion was even sought on leaving the EU. Just a binary yes/no. Opinion implies some thought processes and commentary on the matter under discussion.


What?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

killer b said:


> what's happening tomorrow?


The rest of the EU leaders will give him a hard time over dinner, possibly undermine Barnier in the media.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> No-one's opinion was even sought on leaving the EU. Just a binary yes/no. Opinion implies some thought processes and commentary on the matter under discussion.


opinion implies, yes
the way opinion is measured via referenda or elections does not allow for the transition of detail as you'd desire and so many results mean different things to different people


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The rest of the EU leaders will give him a hard time over dinner, possibly undermine Barnier in the media.


they'll nick his dinner money and kick his shins


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> irish republicanism has always had a class dimension from wolfe tone to the present, it's not a comfy middle-class philosophy.
> 
> you can deny whatever you please. but there was no requirement on any government to quit the eea, to quit the single market, to quit the customs union. no one ever voted not to enter efta.
> 
> ...


Well it is full circle back to the repeated declaration by May that leave means leave.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they'll nick his dinner money and kick his shins


Merkel will come to the fore, the Irish will go on about being chucked under the bus, the dutch will have the arse. 
But at least the EU leaders will be thinking over stuff tonight instead of just having an anti UK smugfest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Well it is full circle back to the repeated declaration by May that leave means leave.


don't talk such bollocks

leave means leave isn't something theresa may ever said

as you'd know if you'd paid more than the most basic attention

leave means leave was a pro-brexit pressure group run by richard tice

so no one has ever repeated this thing may never said

she did say brexit means brexit. but that doesn't mean brexit meant leave, certainly not in the sense you say leave means.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 16, 2020)

Time to rename the thread?


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Time to rename the thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 234602


That really is one of those Orwellian faces


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Time to rename the thread?


Perhaps a poll option of shitshow vrs handcart-to-hell?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Perhaps a poll option of shitshow vrs handcart-to-hell?


A shiter shade of bail


----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> don't talk such bollocks
> 
> leave means leave isn't something theresa may ever said
> 
> ...


My mistake. She said 'brexit means brexit'


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> My mistake. She said 'brexit means brexit'


Yes she said brexit means brexit as I mention in the last paragraph of the post you quote so you don't need to tell me what she said, I already told you


----------



## brogdale (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes she said brexit means brexit as I mention in the last paragraph of the post you quote so you don't need to tell me what she said, I already told you


I'm seeing your interactions as a leitmotif of the Brexit 'negotiation' process.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'm seeing your interactions as a leitmotif of the Brexit 'negotiation' process.


Sadly philosophical is yet to agree stfu means stfu, he seems to think it encouragement to blather on


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 16, 2020)




----------



## philosophical (Oct 16, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly philosophical is yet to agree stfu means stfu, he seems to think it encouragement to blather on


Sadly?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 16, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Sadly?



stfu


----------



## ska invita (Oct 16, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> View attachment 234607


thats a cracker

missed this bit first time around


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 17, 2020)

Don’t worry lads, they’re looking out for people to make sure they don’t face undue hardship due to Brexit.




I suspect they’ll look at other policies to make sure racehorse owners, offshore financiers etc are all OK. Always looking out for the ordinary man.


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Oct 17, 2020)

Brexit: Trade talks with the EU are over, says No 10
					

"No point" in further discussions with the EU unless it changes course, Downing Street says.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## philosophical (Oct 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly philosophical is yet to agree stfu means stfu, he seems to think it encouragement to blather on


I think shut the fuck up is a term used by authoritarian control freaks.
The sad people.
If brexit means brexit, it leads me back to the evidence of the ballot slip you helpfully pictured. Where one of the key words, maybe _the_ key word, is 'leave'.
If others interpret that in their ways, I interpret that in mine.
Pretty simple.
Now....bring on the left wing authoritarian control freakery as the best method of organising people in the class struggle if that suits.
It is quite a feature on Urban75.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 17, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Don’t worry lads, they’re looking out for people to make sure they don’t face undue hardship due to Brexit.
> 
> 
> View attachment 234693
> ...


I have to confess that this truly something that never even remotely occurred to me


----------



## brogdale (Oct 17, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Now....bring on the left wing authoritarian control freakery as the best method of organising people in the class struggle if that suits.
> It is quite a feature on Urban75.


Is it a feature on here? Really?
I can't remember anyone on Urban ever telling me to STFU, tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I think shut the fuck up is a term used by authoritarian control freaks.
> The sad people.
> If brexit means brexit, it leads me back to the evidence of the ballot slip you helpfully pictured. Where one of the key words, maybe _the_ key word, is 'leave'.
> If others interpret that in their ways, I interpret that in mine.
> ...


Leaving the EU does not necessitate leaving the eea, nor does it stand in the way of joining efta.

No one would tell you to shut up if you didn't continually show yourself a one chord wonder, and not particularly good at playing that.

You're like Theresa May.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 17, 2020)




----------



## teqniq (Oct 17, 2020)

I suspect that no deal has been the plan all along. The likes of Crispin Oadley, Mogg and the Elliotts etc stand to make a lot of money if it goes that way. Whether they get their wish remains to be seen.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Leaving the EU does not necessitate leaving the eea, nor does it stand in the way of joining efta.
> 
> No one would tell you to shut up if you didn't continually show yourself a one chord wonder, and not particularly good at playing that.
> 
> You're like Theresa May.


'No one'.
Love it.
The voice of everybody else  the people.
White Knights yell chaaaaaaaarge.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 17, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I suspect that no deal has been the plan all along. The likes of Crispin Oadley, Mogg and the Elliotts etc stand to make a lot of money if it goes that way. Whether they get their wish remains to be seen.


  Given the central figures fetish for disruption for the sake of disruption, it wouldn’t surprise me . There isn’t a secret plan for the post no deal scenario that will be rolled out. Good luck all


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 17, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I suspect that no deal has been the plan all along. The likes of Crispin Oadley, Mogg and the Elliotts etc stand to make a lot of money if it goes that way. Whether they get their wish remains to be seen.


Yup. Disaster capitalism, on steroids. We're fucked.


----------



## tommers (Oct 17, 2020)

Oh well. At least I can restart my smuggling business.


----------



## Cloo (Oct 17, 2020)

I can foresee that this means that even if there is somehow a vaccine next year, other countries would be distributing it and returning to functionality while the UK gov still struggles to discern its arse from its elbow and we fall into increasing squalor.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 17, 2020)

> The value of the fishing industry to the British economy is tiny in comparative terms. It employs just 0.1% of the national workforce and contributes £1.4bn to the UK economy – or 0.1% of GDP.
> 
> Fishing is also only really a priority issue for eight EU member states – Ireland, France, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Denmark and Germany.
> 
> But the fishing industry is both romantic and vital for the economic health of often already run-down coastal communities. No politician wants to be seen betraying these communities and losing their votes.







__





						Catches, quotas and communities: the key fisheries issues at stake | Fishing industry | The Guardian
					

What are the forces at play as the end of the Brexit transition period looms?




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (Oct 17, 2020)

In fantasy land, and looking at the way this government spaffs money, would it not be a good idea to pay all the fishing coastal communities to stop fishing for a couple of years to give the fish a chance to recover?
Or even better pay the coastal communities to both stop fishing, and to also try some way of getting plastic out of the seas?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2020)

May not be accurate but still


----------



## teqniq (Oct 18, 2020)

Who would have guessed?









						Experts claim Boris Johnson’s ‘thin’ EU deal will cause major economic upset
					

The outcome being pursued by the prime minister in the Brexit trade talks will not avoid costly friction at the border




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 18, 2020)

Cloo said:


> the UK gov still struggles to discern its arse from its elbow


Arse (l), Elbow (r)


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 18, 2020)

Badgers said:


> May not be accurate but still



Hey - great for the Kent fertiliser industry!
clouds, silver linings, etc...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Hey - great for the Kent fertiliser industry!
> clouds, silver linings, etc...


Enough slurry there to give Johnson a soaking


----------



## Roadkill (Oct 19, 2020)

From today's FT.  Bishops are bashing the Johnson again:


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 19, 2020)

I thought the point of Brexit was to escape these "un-elected bureaucrats"


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 19, 2020)

Yeah, a couple of weeks old but it tickled me:


----------



## Marty1 (Oct 19, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What features would an ally of Stephen Yakitty Lookatme have?
> Errrm.
> Well he hates Muslims and urges people to vote Tory so features of those who share those characteristics would in my mind be the features of a cunt.
> There might be other thing an ally would agree with too, but I can't think of them right now.



Hitler drank water = anyone who drinks water is a Nazi.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And when the EU move the refugees from their internment camps in Greece to a new one in Donegal, one with no fences and an arrow pointing east..?



TBF, why would anyone want to leave Donegal & come here?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes we have no bananas



No bendy bananas, or no straight bananas?


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2020)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Rockall.



No need to fucking swear, ya cunt!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Johnson can't even generate the expressions/body language to pretend that he thinks Cummings' posturing is serious:
> 
> View attachment 234557



In his own mind, Johnson the Johnson is Alan B'Stard.
In every sane's mind, he's Rik the student people's poet.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

2hats said:


> Prep for an island full of criminals and rampant bigotry?



& racial murderation. Don't forget the r...oh, we've already got that to some degree, haven't we?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

killer b said:


> lol what. You reckon the pissed off coastal communities of France are begging Macron to cave?



Because obviously French fishermen don't have Biscay or the Med to fish in.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> View attachment 234575
> 
> BING!



The govt have probably put it in a metal container that will fuck your microwave right up, the wankers!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 235116



I look at that picture, & I see a tableful of 2nd-rate political hacks, all thinking more about what they can personally take away from Brexit, than about the good of the UK.

That cunt Shapps looks like a plastic surgery disaster, & Patel has her patented sneer glued to her face.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 19, 2020)

Patel has her patented sneer glued to her face.

yes I noticed that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 19, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Patel has her patented sneer glued to her face.
> 
> yes I noticed that



I mean, it understandable, given that she's staring at Johnson, but even so...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 19, 2020)

My dog does that "I could 'av yer, I could 'av yer" by jumping up and down while staring


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2020)

UK refuses to restart Brexit talks despite EU accepting its demands
					

No 10 unmoved even after Barnier’s offer prompts Gove to make U-turn at dispatch box




					www.theguardian.com
				




The EU reportedly demanding border officials.


----------



## Winot (Oct 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> UK refuses to restart Brexit talks despite EU accepting its demands
> 
> 
> No 10 unmoved even after Barnier’s offer prompts Gove to make U-turn at dispatch box
> ...



It's a compromise option based on a what the UK agreed to in the Withdrawal Agreement.









						UK government in row with EU over proposed office in Belfast
					

UK rejected initial request from Brussels during negotiations on post-Brexit Irish border controls




					www.theguardian.com
				




"Under article 12 of the Northern Ireland protocol, the UK government is “responsible for implementing and applying the provisions of [EU] law” but EU officials “shall have the right to be present during any activities” relating to checks and controls.
The UK is obliged to “facilitate such presence of representatives and shall provide them with the information requested”. The EU wants a base for its customs and veterinary experts."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 20, 2020)

blame game - it not us that imposed a border, its the EU - look at what they have done. totes transparent but sure will be swallowed by many


----------



## brogdale (Oct 20, 2020)

Must be a morale booster for the supra state to see that the Johnson regime can't even negotiate successfully with Manchester.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 20, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Must be a morale booster for the supra state to see that the Johnson regime can't even negotiate successfully with Manchester.


He might be able to show them he can walk away without a deal and it won't be a matter of life and death.

Hang on...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2020)

Brexit talks to resume after Michel Barnier speech breaks impasse
					

EU’s chief negotiator meets Downing Street’s threshold for resumption of troubled talks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2020)

Well it rolls on. The Guardian does some great quotes from EU diplomatic sources above. Dripping with sneering arrogance.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 22, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it rolls on. The Guardian does some great quotes from EU diplomatic sources above. Dripping with sneering arrogance.


At our dear heroic leaders? How very dare they!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 22, 2020)

This is about more costs and aggro because of brexit.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 22, 2020)

This is about yet more aggro because of brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This is about more costs and aggro because of brexit.





(((((AMAZON))))


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This is about yet more aggro because of brexit.





Wait! There will be a day or two's delay to folk getting their Teslas? That was never on the ballot paper, if it was the result would surely have been very different!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> (((((AMAZON))))



eBay sellers are fucked but at the same time eBay is mostly just companies selling Chinese goods cheaply these days


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This is about more costs and aggro because of brexit.








The environment applauds Brexit voters.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> eBay sellers are fucked but at the same time eBay is mostly just companies selling Chinese goods cheaply these days



See post below yours...


----------



## Supine (Oct 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The environment applauds Brexit voters.



Dolphins love racists


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

Supine said:


> Dolphins love racists



Dolphins _are racists._

Rapey an’all.


----------



## Supine (Oct 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Dolphins _are racists._
> 
> Rapey an’all.



Basically tories.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 22, 2020)

Supine said:


> Basically tories.



Always have a smug look going on too. Blowhole wankers.


----------



## andysays (Oct 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This is about yet more aggro because of brexit.



Brexit Means No Beans


----------



## Supine (Oct 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Always have a smug look going on too. Blowhole wankers.



And they make a lot of noise and then disappear. A bit like Mark Francois.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> Brexit Means No Beans


They promised us a Brexit that does what it says on the tin, and now they've found a loophole.


----------



## andysays (Oct 22, 2020)

Raheem said:


> They promised us a Brexit that does what it says on the tin, and now they've found a loophole.


I think you mean a hoop hole...


----------



## Supine (Oct 22, 2020)

Raheem said:


> They promised us a Brexit that does what it says on the tin, and now they've found a loophole.



The tin says 57 varieties. Bit like brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2020)

With the Brexit walkout and sulk over, is the UK on the home straight for a deal?
					

After a week of theatrics, the gaps are still significant and the deal at the end remains thin




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 24, 2020)

Apparently Boris is trying to negotiate access to the Eu gates for travellers after brexit.

Unsurprisingly the Eu isn’t having it so far.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Apparently Boris is trying to negotiate access to the Eu gates for travellers after brexit.
> 
> Unsurprisingly the Eu isn’t having it so far.


It goes both ways though.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Please let the queues of British people stretch for miles and last for days.
Doubt that will happen, but I can only hope.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 24, 2020)

why you wishing hardship on anyone ? what next - you want soup kitchens and ration books to teach "them" a lesson ? ffs


----------



## teqniq (Oct 24, 2020)

Bitterness, mainly.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Total bitterness, more bitter than a gallon of angostura downed in one.


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Please let the queues of British people stretch for miles and last for days.
> Doubt that will happen, but I can only hope.


Your pre existing condition is showing again


----------



## Smangus (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Please let the queues of British people stretch for miles and last for days.
> Doubt that will happen, but I can only hope.



u r fuked up.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Smangus said:


> u r fuked up.



Fair enough opinion.
What I believe to be even more fucked up is for this brexit, this Tory brexit, to be a success in any way.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it rolls on. The Guardian does some great quotes from EU diplomatic sources above. Dripping with sneering arrogance.


I really don't see any 'sneering arrogance' there?
Simply rationality, mixed with exasperation


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Fair enough opinion.
> What I believe to be even more fucked up is for this brexit, this Tory brexit, to be a success in any way.


You really do need to re-get a grip on your sense of perspective


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> You really do need to re-get a grip on your sense of perspective



Thanks for the advice.
I believe you are wrong.
Interesting use of the word 'need' though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Thanks for the advice.
> I believe you are wrong.
> Interesting use of the word 'need' though.


what's more interesting is Streathamite's decision to use 're-get a grip on your' rather than 'get a'

his supposition that you had a sense of perspective at some point in the past isn't as far as i can see borne out by your posting history


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I really don't see any 'sneering arrogance' there?
> Simply rationality, mixed with exasperation


there is always sneering arrogance in the guardian


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> what's more interesting is Streathamite's decision to use 're-get a grip on your' rather than 'get a'
> 
> his supposition that you had a sense of perspective at some point in the past isn't as far as i can see borne out by your posting history


Interesting use of 'as far as I can see'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Interesting use of 'as far as I can see'.


i can of course only go back as far as 11 january 2015, during which time you have been bereft of a sense of perspective.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> i can of course only go back as far as 11 january 2015, during which time you have been bereft of a sense of perspective.



I disagree.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I disagree.


disagree as you will, i haven't seen anything you've written from before january 2015 but if it's in any way similar to what you've written since then i imagine it'd be marked by the same casual lack of perspective that is so characteristic of your posts


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> disagree as you will, i haven't seen anything you've written from before january 2015 but if it's in any way similar to what you've written since then i imagine it'd be marked by the same casual lack of perspective that is so characteristic of your posts



You're wrong.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You're wrong.


Are you arguing that PM should recognise that you have indeed lost your sense of perspective?


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Are you arguing that PM should recognise that you have indeed lost your sense of perspective?



I am not arguing about anything.
Whenever I post anything PM tends to quote or remark on it for no worthwhile reason that I can easily discern.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You're wrong.


So you say on the basis of no evidence at all

Again


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 24, 2020)

Control of our... er... I mean, EU... borders!


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

What evidence are you expecting? The sworn statement of a witness saying 'yep I heard him say you're wrong'?


Pickman's model said:


> So you say on the basis of no evidence at all
> 
> Again


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am not arguing about anything.
> Whenever I post anything PM tends to quote or remark on it for no worthwhile reason that I can easily discern.



Possibly cos you’ve spent the past few year bleating on about how much you dislike the Tory Brexit, without realising that calling it a Tory Brexit is tautological as remain would also have been Tory. By your six-form level of political savvy you are in bed with Cameron and Osborne and welcome the killing of people via austerity. It’s just silly, which is why you’re seen as a fucking dickhead and no one bothers to interact with you in a serious manner.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 24, 2020)

Not this futile loop again


----------



## teqniq (Oct 24, 2020)

Indeed. I also suspect he's got to have the last word as well which is why we had to put up with several pages of shite last time (I apologise for my part in that by actually responding to the bitter windbag).


----------



## eatmorecheese (Oct 24, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Indeed. I also suspect he's got to have the last word as well which is why we had to put up with several pages of shite last time (I apologise for my part in that by actually responding to the bitter windbag).



No worries, I responded to the dog whistle too. My bad.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Possibly cos you’ve spent the past few year bleating on about how much you dislike the Tory Brexit, without realising that calling it a Tory Brexit is tautological as remain would also have been Tory. By your six-form level of political savvy you are in bed with Cameron and Osborne and welcome the killing of people via austerity. It’s just silly, which is why you’re seen as a fucking dickhead and no one bothers to interact with you in a serious manner.


The Tories managed to get an 80 seat majority by characterizing the last election as a 'get brexit done' election.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The Tories managed to get an 80 seat majority by characterizing the last election as a 'get brexit done election.



Yep, Labour could have done the same but they were listening to idiots like you.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> Not this futile loop again


No need to call anyone names.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Eh


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep, Labour could have done the same but they were listening to idiots like you.


Eh?
I didn't vote Tory.
Are you making some kind of point or indulging in some casual abuse?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Eh
> 
> Eh?
> I didn't vote Tory.
> Are you making some kind of point or indulging in some casual abuse?



You voted remain. In favour of Cameron and Osborne. Own it, dick-splash.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 24, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You voted remain. In favour of Cameron and Osborne. Own it, dick-splash.



It was a binary choice, and of the two I chose remain.
I own that fully.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It was a binary choice, and of the two I chose remain.
> I own that fully.



Good. Now live with the consequences of your actions.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> his supposition that you had a sense of perspective at some point in the past isn't as far as i can see borne out by your posting history


I am being charitable and generous, here


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You voted remain. In favour of Cameron and Osborne. Own it, dick-splash.


Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes 
Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Eh
> 
> Eh?
> I didn't vote Tory.
> Are you making some kind of point or indulging in some casual abuse?


No, ffs, 
it was Labour's disastrous pivot to full-on second vote which gifted the Tories their 80-seat majority. Absolutely no one had thestomach for a second referendum campaign


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes
> Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
> Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....


Sorry! I now see the point you were trying to make to Philosophical. My bad


----------



## Raheem (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> No, ffs,
> it was Labour's disastrous pivot to full-on second vote which gifted the Tories their 80-seat majority. Absolutely no one had thestomach for a second referendum campaign


If Labour had suddenly switched to backing Brexit, the majority of remainers would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.

It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If Labour had suddenly switched backing Brexit, the majority of remainders would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.
> 
> It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.


I think they could have steered a slightly different line. They could have said "We would much rather remain had won - but it didn't. We think this is a terrible mistake, but it is much more important that this vote - and the People's Choice that it represents - be respected. To do otherwise would be to trash democracy". That at least could be sold as credible, sustainable and democratic (sincere, even), whilst also respecting the feelings and opinions of all the Leave voters in their (ex-) heartlands.
Would it have saved them a thumping? dunno. But I doubt it would have led to a result as bad as the one that they eventually did get.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 24, 2020)

> : “Several very senior sources in capitals have told me they believe Johnson will await clarity on the presidential election result before finally deciding whether to jump to ‘no deal’ with the EU, or to conclude that this is just too risky with Biden heading for the White House, and hence live with some highly suboptimal (for Johnson) skinny free-trade agreement.”



makes sense
leaving the EU is intrinsically tied to the UKs future trading relationship with the US. A Trump win means No Deal? Sounds right


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> I think they could have steered a slightly different line. They could have said "We would much rather remain had won - but it didn't. We think this is a terrible mistake, but it is much more important that this vote - and the People's Choice that it represents - be respected. To do otherwise would be to trash democracy". That at least could be sold as credible, sustainable and democratic (sincere, even), whilst also respecting the feelings and opinions of all the Leave voters in their (ex-) heartlands.
> Would it have saved them a thumping? dunno. But I doubt it would have led to a result as bad as the one that they eventually did get.


They could have steered a very different line. Refusing to agree with the false Tory contention that the referendum vote meant a need to end free movement for starters. Once they had started down that line they were boxed in.


----------



## brogdale (Oct 24, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If Labour had suddenly switched backing Brexit, the majority of remainders would not have voted for them (even if they might have come to regret it with hindsight), and the majority of leavers also would not have voted for them, because they would have been rightly suspicious that the policy might not hold once they were in power.
> 
> It's alright to have an opinion about what Labour should have done from a moral point-of-view, but electorally it was just a choice between being fucked and being even more fucked.


The other dynamic being between members and voters, of course. Corbyn's determination to make the party more of a members party had implications wrt Brexit policy.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The other dynamic being between members and voters, of course. Corbyn's determination to make the party more of a members party had implications wrt Brexit policy.


Majority of Labour members and voters supported Remain.

They could have argued for joining EFTA - something along the lines of the so-called Common Market 2. Belatedly some in Labour realised that a fair number of brexit voters actually wanted something like that anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> What evidence are you expecting? The sworn statement of a witness saying 'yep I heard him say you're wrong'?


Repeating 'you're wrong' won't make you right


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> say what you want. your words cannot hurt me.
> there is no way back from introducing the word 'purveyor' into a thread
> 
> it is the mark of the no-mark


Tbf It was rather a verbose and circoelocutory  way of saying cunt


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Hold it! Brexit cut across party lines, and class lines. I am a socialist who left the Labour Party because it deserted first socialism, then any form of social democracy. I voted Remain, because I believed - then and now - that that wa in the best interests of the working classes
> Judging people by those you end up in temporary political alignment with is at least as daft of any of Philosophical's clueless witterings here.
> Otherwise, i see your Cameron and Osborne, and raise you Johnson, Gove, raab, Patel, Sunak, rees Mogg, farage, most BNP supporters....


I'll see your cock wombles and raise you a Blair


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They could have steered a very different line. Refusing to agree with the false Tory contention that the referendum vote meant a need to end free movement for starters. Once they had started down that line they were boxed in.


yes, that as well - they should have fought for EEA, CU, SM.  Yes, it that would have given the Tories a priceless propaganda gift by painting Labour as the people who want to let all the iimigrants in - but a) labour should stand for a liberal and humane immigration policy on principle, anyway, and b) i'm not so convinced that immigration is such a killer issue anyway.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 24, 2020)

gosub said:


> I'll see your cock wombles and raise you a Blair


Sure, which kinda undescores my point; that who else voted for or against something is irrelevant


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2020)

This thread is like taggered netting, big holes gaping. I can extrapolate that the Catford hardman is miaowing a bit.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2020)

Puss puss puss! Here kitty kitty!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

gosub said:


> Tbf It was rather a verbose and circoelocutory  way of saying cunt


Took you long enough to catch that


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> Sure, which kinda undescores my point; that who else voted for or against something is irrelevant



Yes and no, What was wrong, and why leave won was more on the heads of people that pulled strings from Downing Street than pro Griffen, Farage et al. The Brexit we have done, has to my mind threw the baby away and polarized around skanky bathwater


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Puss puss puss! Here kitty kitty!


Crying into his whiskas


----------



## gosub (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Took you long enough to catch that


Pubs were open, rounds were offered, guitar's played and songs sung.  (Happily preoccupied)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

gosub said:


> Pubs were open, rounds were offered, guitar's played and songs sung.  (Happily preoccupied)


Even tho you've posted more than a dozen times on this thread in the last two weeks

But I accept your apology for posting pissed


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 24, 2020)

> : “Several very senior sources in capitals have told me they believe Johnson will await clarity on the presidential election result before finally deciding whether to jump to ‘no deal’ with the EU, or to conclude that this is just too risky with Biden heading for the White House, and hence live with some highly suboptimal (for Johnson) skinny free-trade agreement.”





="ska invita said:


> makes sense
> leaving the EU is intrinsically tied to the UKs future trading relationship with the US. A Trump win means No Deal? Sounds right



I seem to have missed where the top quote came from , but even someone as stupid as Johnson must know by now that the chances of a Trump re-election in the US are pretty small.

If the US factor is as important as that (and I'm scepotical there, btw), then that must imply that the chances of no deal are also pretty bloody small ....

Or *are they??*


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> I seem to have missed where the top quote came from , but even someone as stupid as Johnson must know by now that the chances of a Trump re-election in the US are pretty small.
> 
> If the US factor is as important as that (and I'm scepotical there, btw), then that must imply that the chances of no deal are also pretty bloody small ....
> 
> Or are they??


Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first



I boringly agree , but maybe I've been going along a bit too much with JTG's posts on the US Election thread


----------



## TopCat (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's not consign trump to defeat quite yet, let the votes get counted first


Chad's, Jebb Bush etc...


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 24, 2020)

Pickman's model :   But if Johnson is in any way basing his EU/Brexit strategy on his hopes of a Trump re-election, then he's even more deluded ....... hence my original point.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 25, 2020)

Stating your opinion doesn't make it an objective fact.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 25, 2020)

Isn't that just your opinion though? 


Sorry I'm not getting involved in this ...


----------



## Raheem (Oct 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> makes sense
> leaving the EU is intrinsically tied to the UKs future trading relationship with the US. A Trump win means No Deal? Sounds right


Think there's a problem with this story. A Biden victory probably does shift the calculus in terms of a US-UK trade deal. But Trump is also not in a position to make generous gifts to the UK in terms of trade without controlling Congress. There's a pretty clear line from Congress that there's no prospect of a deal with the UK unless the UK has a deal with the EU which protects the GFA. So it wouldn't make sense for Johnson to think the US will come to his rescue in the event of no deal. Not to mention that by "to his rescue" we would be talking about a plaster on a severed limb anyway.

I would expect the UK has been using Trump as a threat in negotiations with the EU, but this will have been about security rather than trade.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 25, 2020)

Yes. For the most part isn't that what nearly everybody writes...opinions?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 25, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Pickman's model :   But if Johnson is in any way basing his EU/Brexit strategy on his hopes of a Trump re-election, then he's even more deluded ....... hence my original point.


'Taking back control'

Oh noes my master has lost power...

Noises are that Biden is not going to look kindly on world leaders who cosied up to Trump. Whatever the truth to that, back in the real world, the US's relationship with the EU is more important than its relationship with the UK. We also shouldn't understate the importance of Ireland in domestic US politics. Far more important than the UK.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 26, 2020)

Hugely balanced article from the Guardian. 








						Our Brexit future? Come January, it looks more and more like 1980s Russia
					

The shorthand we used to understand Russia back then was: nobody could get a pair of Levi’s. An upcoming VAT change could create something similar in the UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Oct 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Hugely balanced article from the Guardian.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Zoe Williams is a joke, see her response to Corbyn leadership


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'Taking back control'
> 
> Oh noes my master has lost power...
> 
> Noises are that Biden is not going to look kindly on world leaders who cosied up to Trump. Whatever the truth to that, back in the real world, the US's relationship with the EU is more important than its relationship with the UK. We also shouldn't understate the importance of Ireland in domestic US politics. Far more important than the UK.


nancy pelosi and others have said that as the united states is a guarantor of the gfa they will look poorly on anything which undermines that. and that might also affect any trade agreement under discussion.

perhaps the importance not of ireland but of irish america might influence it

but it's not simple greenwash, they do have responsibilities under international law

but hey make things up on the trot, why don't you


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> nancy pelosi and others have said that as the united states is a guarantor of the gfa they will look poorly on anything which undermines that. and that might also affect any trade agreement under discussion.
> 
> perhaps the importance not of ireland but of irish america might influence it
> 
> ...


Ireland is important in domestic US politics precisely because of Irish Americans. I left off the 'because of Irish Americans' bit because I assumed most posters would know enough to take it as read. Clearly not.


----------



## Streathamite (Oct 26, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We also shouldn't understate the importance of Ireland in domestic US politics. Far more important than the UK.


The Irish-American lobby is actually _huge. _
It really is quite funny, to see every single legislator scrambling frantically to find every single Irish ancestor they can, every single St Patrick's Day.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 26, 2020)

While it lasts ...









						Google Maps
					

Find local businesses, view maps and get driving directions in Google Maps.




					www.google.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ireland is important in domestic US politics precisely because of Irish Americans. I left off the 'because of Irish Americans' bit because I assumed most posters would know enough to take it as read. Clearly not.


yeh but i wasn't talking about domestic us politics, this being a thread about brexit. 

in the future when i make reference to the usg being a guarantor of an international agreement perhaps you'll take the hint that i am not focussing on us domestic politics. and i don't know why you mentioned it when it's not germane to the matter at hand

i assumed most posters would know enough to take the hint.

clearly not.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 26, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> The Irish-American lobby is actually _huge. _
> It really is quite funny, to see every single legislator scrambling frantically to find every single Irish ancestor they can, every single St Patrick's Day.


My daughter's boyfriend (who is Irish) tells me that there are 7 million in Ireland (5 in the south and 2 in the north) but 85 million people around the world who identify as Irish including my mum who is 1/16th Irish (her great-grandfather was deported back from Manchester to Dublin on those very grounds). Every (and I mean EVERY) time she sees my daughter's boyfriend she tells him this like she hasn't mentioned it a thousand times before.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2020)

Well you would though wouldn't you  I'd be exactly the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> My daughter's boyfriend (who is Irish) tells me that there are 7 million in Ireland (5 in the south and 2 in the north) but 85 million people around the world who identify as Irish including my mum who is 1/16th Irish (her great-grandfather was deported back from Manchester to Dublin on those very grounds). Every (and I mean EVERY) time she sees my daughter's boyfriend she tells him this like she hasn't mentioned it a thousand times before.


presumably from a workhouse? the irish poor could be deported from england: there was no similar scheme to remove the english poor from ireland


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> presumably from a workhouse? the irish poor could be deported from england: there was no similar scheme to remove the english poor from ireland


He drank in the wrong pubs from what I understand, he knew a number of people involved in the Fenian Bombing campaigns of the 1880's and whilst probably not directly involved was classed as an undesirable (an Irish one to boot)


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> He drank in the wrong pubs from what I understand, he knew a number of people involved in the Fenian Bombing campaigns of the 1880's and whilst probably not directly involved was classed as an undesirable (an Irish one to boot)


there's a story or two there, could be worth looking into


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 26, 2020)

Ireland basically emptied in the 19th century and into the 20th, I don't think Ireland's at the same population level even now.

From wiki.



> Between 1700 and 1840, Ireland experienced rapid population growth, rising from less than three million in 1700 to over eight million by 1841[3]. In 1851, as the Great Famine was ending, the population of Ireland had dropped to 6.5 million people. The Famine and the resulting Irish diaspora had a dramatic effect on population; by 1891, Ireland's population had slipped under five million and by 1931, it had dropped to just over four million. It stayed around this level until the 1960s, when the population began to rise again. Future predictions are for the population to continue to rise; in 2022, it is predicted to be just over seven million.[4]



Poverty, famine, the English...


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2020)

Cornwall only recovered from the copper mining crash of the 1860s and emigration to Australia, USA etc. a hundred years later. The village I live in is still a fair bit smaller now than it was then and has quite a few ruins of old houses from the 1800s. Since then faster population growth than the rest of the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Cornwall only recovered from the copper mining crash of the 1860s and emigration to Australia, USA etc. a hundred years later. The village I live in is still a fair bit smaller now than it was then and has quite a few ruins of old houses from the 1800s. Since then faster population growth than the rest of the UK.


all the dfl's i suppose


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 26, 2020)

Streathamite said:


> The Irish-American lobby is actually _huge. _
> It really is quite funny, to see every single legislator scrambling frantically to find every single Irish ancestor they can, every single St Patrick's Day.



Few years back, met some Americans on St Patrick's Day in a faux Irish pub and they said they were Irish. Oh, whereabouts from, I asked. 

Chicago, they said. Never been to Ireland and couldn't name the Taoiseach or any political parties.

Nice lads, all the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 26, 2020)

krtek a houby said:


> Chicago, they said. Never been to Ireland and couldn't name the Taoiseach or any political parties.


i wonder how many people in ireland wish they lived in the same blissful ignorance


----------



## philosophical (Oct 26, 2020)

I believe the reason the Irish diaspora is alive, cherished, remembered and significant for so many is because of the traumatic circumstances that led to so much emigration in the past.
I also believe that many many Irish people who remain on the island are aware and sensitive to the regard held by descendants of Irish emigrants about their roots.
The concept of a 'plastic paddy' does exist, but it runs alongside the notion for many native Irish that there are new generations out there in the world who would still be welcomed 'home' and regarded as family.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2020)

Yes I think that's very similar to how Cornish people view the emigrants (not that I am Cornish but that's the impression.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 26, 2020)

I get that impression too. Years ago when I was in Cornwall (this is not a scientific study) a local remarked to me that there would be a Cornishman somewhere down every mine on the planet.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 26, 2020)

Yep I've heard that, said with pride.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 26, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I believe the reason the Irish diaspora is alive, cherished, remembered and significant for so many is because of the traumatic circumstances that led to so much emigration in the past.
> I also believe that many many Irish people who remain on the island are aware and sensitive to the regard held by descendants of Irish emigrants about their roots.
> The concept of a 'plastic paddy' does exist, but it runs alongside the notion for many native Irish that there are new generations out there in the world who would still be welcomed 'home' and regarded as family.



Yes... and no. There were always the tourists who were fleeced, ripped off and jeered at. Others returning "home", were sometimes treated with suspicion. But that was long ago, most domestic Irish are confident enough to embrace the cultural differences nowadays.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 27, 2020)

Seems a lot of businesses are already struggling


----------



## Poot (Oct 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I get that impression too. Years ago when I was in Cornwall (this is not a scientific study) a local remarked to me that there would be a Cornishman somewhere down every mine on the planet.


"A mine is a hole with a Cornishman at the bottom" is the saying round here. A lot of the Cornish mines closed when the price of tin and arsenic fell at the end of 19th century and thousands went all over the world to mine. Cornishmen. In holes. All over the world.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 27, 2020)

What the fuck is this?


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

well we need something back for all the cheese


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> What the fuck is this?


she watches bake off


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> she watches bake off



So does the Department for International Trade but they don't cook apparently. Soya sauce?


----------



## Raheem (Oct 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> What the fuck is this?



It's a cabinet minister.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> So does the Department for International Trade but they don't cook apparently. Soya sauce?



Cheaper than what? a ) Cheaper than they would be with the EU-Japan trade deal, or b ) cheaper than they would be without any deal? 

It's just b), isn't it? 

Yay! udon noodles will cost exactly the same as they would have cost without doing anything. Go Brexit!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 27, 2020)

Sums Brexit up in a nutshell. _Boasting_ about something not getting worse because of it.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 27, 2020)

I actually buy Japanese miso and soy sauce so I am overflowing with  joy.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

that's soooo shortsighted. I want my cheese back


----------



## Raheem (Oct 27, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> I actually buy Japanese miso and soy sauce so I am overflowing with  joy.


With soy, surely?


----------



## Winot (Oct 27, 2020)

As pointed out on Twitter, most soy sauce consumed in the UK comes from the Netherlands.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

Perhaps we could do a trade deal with the Dutch for it


----------



## Raheem (Oct 27, 2020)

Willing to bet most udon noodles come from China


----------



## two sheds (Oct 27, 2020)

Doesn't mention them here but:









						GBBO accused of “borderline racism” for food choices during “Japanese week” | FR24 News English
					






					www.fr24news.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 28, 2020)

Winot said:


> As pointed out on Twitter, most soy sauce consumed in the UK comes from the Netherlands.



Europort still handles most of the EU bound stuff these days- massively competent importation infrastructure in place that handles a shocking amount of gear. Its not the end of the world but the UK relies upon this infrastructure to piggy back its imported goods.Its what the dutchies have done well  for centuries


----------



## mx wcfc (Oct 28, 2020)

Winot said:


> As pointed out on Twitter, most soy sauce consumed in the UK comes from the Netherlands.


Isn't that classic British condiment HP Sauce, made in the Netherlands too?  I don't think I could cope with that.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 28, 2020)

I wonder how much of this “originating in Holland” stuff is because of the tax loophole that allows companies to offshore profits from the Netherlands without incurring EU withholding tax.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Doesn't mention them here but:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Racism on bake off, whatever next?


----------



## Winot (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I wonder how much of this “originating in Holland” stuff is because of the tax loophole that allows companies to offshore profits from the Netherlands without incurring EU withholding tax.



Kikkoman has apparently been made there since 1997.


----------



## Winot (Oct 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Isn't that classic British condiment HP Sauce, made in the Netherlands too?  I don't think I could cope with that.



Apparently so. 








						How can HP sauce be an icon of Britishness? It's made in Holland
					

Artist David Mach is crowdsourcing 2,000 bottles of HP sauce to make a (possibly ironic) work exploring British identity, writes Jonathan Jones




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Isn't that classic British condiment HP Sauce, made in the Netherlands too?  I don't think I could cope with that.


There are two sources for HP sauce, the one that  tastes most like the original is made in The Netherlands, another, that seems popular throughout  European hotels is made in Spain and tastes sweeter.


----------



## flypanam (Oct 28, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I believe the reason the Irish diaspora is alive, cherished, remembered and significant for so many is because of the traumatic circumstances that led to so much emigration in the past.
> I also believe that many many Irish people who remain on the island are aware and sensitive to the regard held by descendants of Irish emigrants about their roots.
> The concept of a 'plastic paddy' does exist, but it runs alongside the notion for many native Irish that there are new generations out there in the world who would still be welcomed 'home' and regarded as family.


In some sense that's true, but increasingly there is frustration with the antics of Irish Americans, and there is some downright loathing of emigrants who upped sticks and left because the 2008 great recession. 

There is a loathing of the weepy fucks that cry about the home sod, who visit once in a lifetime and are shocked to discover that Ireland is not all comely maidens and cute hoors but somewhere that is increasingly more like everywhere else and increasingly not white and not catholic, and the vistors are seen as dupes to rip off with any auld tat.

Also the Irish Times is full of sad stories of people that left, only to return and finding it difficult to settle after so many years, the complaint being mainly that everyone has changed, that friends are no longer friends etc. The resentment being that they the emigrants, didn't suffer the austerity that Europe imposed.

Luckily, that doesn't affect those of us that left prior to the recession...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 28, 2020)

I’ve been informed Singapore and Canada do call it a Soya sauce so knowing is half the battle.

Soya sauce still isn’t Japanese and neither is a bao bun with a panda face though so.



gentlegreen said:


> I actually buy Japanese miso and soy sauce so I am overflowing with  joy.



Supermarket miso is expensive for not much so I buy mine from an actual Japanese shop, soy sauce not so much because it’s so cheap elsewhere.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Supermarket miso is expensive for not much so I buy mine from an actual Japanese shop, soy sauce not so much because it’s so cheap elsewhere.



Well when supermarket miso prices drop we'll have no complaints from _you_ that Brexit has brought no benefits


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Supermarket miso is expensive for not much so I buy mine from an actual Japanese shop, soy sauce not so much because it’s so cheap elsewhere.


I don't live near a posh enough supermarket and the Japanese shop closed, so I buy non-organic Sanchi mugi from the local deli which is £3-something for 345g. I only get through about one pack per month ...
I'm overdue a trip to the (mostly) Chinese supermarket for dried shitake and seaweed, so I'll see if they actually stock it.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I wonder how much of this “originating in Holland” stuff is because of the tax loophole that allows companies to offshore profits from the Netherlands without incurring EU withholding tax.


One of the Govt's hope for Brexit is that if it allows companies to not pay taxes here, they will offshore profits from the EU to avoid paying taxes there.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 28, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> I don't live near a posh enough supermarket and the Japanese shop closed, so I buy non-organic Sanchi mugi from the local deli which is £3-something for 345g. I only get through about one pack per month ...
> I'm overdue a trip to the (mostly) Chinese supermarket for dried shitake and seaweed, so I'll see if they actually stock it.


Chinese supermarket miso has MSG in it.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> One of the Govt's hope for Brexit is that if it allows companies to not pay taxes here, they will offshore profits from the EU to avoid paying taxes there.



There's a piece in this issue of Private Eye about the coming of British Freeports and the increase possibilities for creative fraudulent activities.


----------



## krtek a houby (Oct 28, 2020)

Now available in Japan


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> There's a piece in this issue of Private Eye about the coming of British Freeports and the increase possibilities for creative fraudulent activities.


I knew muggles would appear on this thread somewhere


----------



## Flavour (Oct 28, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Chinese supermarket miso has MSG in it.



So what?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Isn't that classic British condiment HP Sauce, made in the Netherlands too?  I don't think I could cope with that.


and its originally a Spanish recipe IIRC


teqniq said:


> Chinese supermarket miso has MSG in it.


Bit of a generalisation no?
They all look the same these Chinese supermarkets


----------



## kabbes (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> One of the Govt's hope for Brexit is that if it allows companies to not pay taxes here, they will offshore profits from the EU to avoid paying taxes there.


A theoretical possibility, certainly. Meanwhile, the reality is that this is being done systematically today using the tax regimes of Ireland, Holland and Luxembourg.  Why do you think that Kikkonen sited themselves in the Netherlands?  According too their corporate spiel, their breakthrough and initial presence in Europe was in Germany, not the Netherlands.  But profits earned in Germany can’t exit the EU with it consideration of a withdrawal tax.

This is what the EU does — what it was _designed_ to do.  Companies have access to the entire EU marketplace so long as they are based somewhere in the EU.  So they can set up nice complex structures to avoid tax whilst still being able to trade in an uninhibited fashion across the entire economic marketplace.


----------



## teqniq (Oct 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> So what?


Some people are allergic to MSG or just don't like it or the idea of it in their food.


ska invita said:


> and its originally a Spanish recipe IIRC
> 
> Bit of a generalisation no?
> They all look the same these Chinese supermarkets


I can only go on the experience of attempting to buy miso in a Chinese supermarket in Cardiff (the only one that sold it). The first time i bought it the brand had no MSG in it. Thereafter every time i looked they had a different brand which had it in.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Chinese supermarket miso has MSG in it.


Yum. I like msg soya sauce.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 28, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Some people are allergic to MSG or just don't like it or the idea of it in their food.



MSG allergy doesn't really exist and the reasons people don't like it are misguided and largely grounded in racist presumptions about East Asian diets.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2020)

Shuffling profits across borders is a major international business, I don't think the EU encourages it but it certainly facilitates it and makes it easier.  There are good and bad things about the single market and this is one of the bad things I'm afraid.
Problem is it's not just an EU business but a worldwide one and no single state/supra-state is big enough and powerful enough to stop it . Such would take international worldwide co-operation and there is no sign of that at all, in fact it's beneficial for many smaller tax regimes to encourage it.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

I get plenty of umami already via the miso, seaweed and mushrooms


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Oct 28, 2020)

Double umami. I also really like MSG. Gets a bit of a bad rap.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Shuffling profits across borders is a major international business, I don't think the EU encourages it but it certainly facilitates it and makes it easier.  There are good and bad things about the single market and this is one of the bad things I'm afraid.
> Problem is it's not just an EU business but a worldwide one and no single state/supra-state is big enough and powerful enough to stop it . Such would take international worldwide co-operation and there is no sign of that at all, in fact it's beneficial for many smaller tax regimes to encourage it.


You can’t stop it so... it’s best to facilitate it, actually codifying into the rules of supranational structures that there is nothing anybody can do to mitigate it across the supranational entity even if they want to?


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Double umami. I also really like MSG. Gets a bit of a bad rap.


I was tempted to buy a bag last time I was at  Wai Yee Hong ...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2020)

Chinese salt.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Chinese salt.


I don't use much NaCl either ...


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> I don't use much NaCl either ...


You are so sweet gentlegreen , I imagine you apologising to vegetables as you gently ease them from the soil.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 28, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are so sweet gentlegreen , I imagine you apologising to vegetables as you gently ease them from the soil.



Looking at the pics of his gaff it's clear he's certainly never pressed hard on Mr Sheen's head.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> You can’t stop it so... it’s best to facilitate it, actually codifying into the rules of supranational structures that there is nothing anybody can do to mitigate it across the supranational entity even if they want to?


No of course not but how do you plan to stop it? We (and by that I mean the UK collectively) have decided we would rather opt out of even trying to change or influence things. Ironical given that outside the EU we have even less influence that could effect change. Not of course that any current mainstream UK party actually wants to.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Looking at the pics of his gaff it's clear he's certainly never pressed hard on Mr Sheen's head.


I'm generous to invertebrates and our single-celled ancestors too ...


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

not at all kind to  Rattus norvegicus  though ...


----------



## kabbes (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> No of course not but how do you plan to stop it? We (and by that I mean the UK collectively) have decided we would rather opt out of even trying to change or influence things. Ironical given that outside the EU we have even less influence that could effect change. Not of course that any current mainstream UK party actually wants to.


Well, a good start for stopping it would be to not to have the suprastate that is neoliberal by design in the first place.  This tax sheltering isn’t an unfortunate side effect, it’s the whole point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are so sweet gentlegreen , I imagine you apologising to vegetables as you gently ease them from the soil.


He is the sort of person who uses a rubber trowel to minimise injuries to earthworms


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Well, a good start for stopping it would be to not to have the suprastate that is neoliberal by design in the first place.  This tax sheltering isn’t an unfortunate side effect, it’s the whole point.


Well that isn't going to happen so we will never know, personally I doubt it. I suspect lots of smaller competing tax regimes across Europe would encourage it since it would be advantageous for countries to be played off against each other.
The worst offenders (states) for it tend to be smaller ones where it makes up a much larger proportion of what tax they get thus giving the tax dodgers more influence, and most European countries are small.


----------



## kabbes (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Well that isn't going to happen so we will never know, personally I doubt it. I suspect lots of smaller competing tax regimes across Europe would encourage it since it would be advantageous for countries to be played off against each other.
> The worst offenders (states) for it tend to be smaller ones where it makes up a much larger proportion of what tax they get thus giving the tax dodgers more influence, and most European countries are small.


I don’t think you understand how the free flow of capital within the EU functions and what it is designed to allow to happen.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I don’t think you understand how the free flow of capital within the EU functions and what it is designed to allow to happen.



The UK's been at the forefront of stopping tax reform to prevent tax flight in the EU for decades. It's only right we give someone else a chance to step up and have a go.


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2020)

Yes please











						Made by nicfromwales
					

Made by nicfromwales. 1,992 likes. The art of an independent nation.




					www.facebook.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes please
> 
> View attachment 236244
> 
> ...


Yeh it'll be a win having to show a passport every time the Welsh go over Offa's dyke or having to produce id for cops in London, to have to justify your presence in England. For that's where things would trend under the Tories.

I'd also like to think an independent Wales wouldn't insist on citizens carrying biometric passports on their journeys but that's probably cloud cuckoo land


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh it'll be a win having to show a passport every time the Welsh go over Offa's dyke or having to produce id for cops in London, to have to justify your presence in England. For that's where things would trend under the Tories.
> 
> I'd also like to think an independent Wales wouldn't insist on citizens carrying biometric passports on their journeys but that's probably cloud cuckoo land


An independent Wales would almost certainly be part of the EU. I've never seen anyone, ever suggest the need for passports or ID at the Welsh border, or insist that people would have to carry biometric passports on their person. 

Plus the passport is a million times cooler than the UK/English ne.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 28, 2020)

Scotland the only one opting back into the EU I see.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2020)

editor said:


> An independent Wales would almost certainly be part of the EU. I've never seen anyone, ever suggest the need for passports or ID at the Welsh border, or insist that people would have to carry biometric passports on their person.
> 
> Plus the passport is a million times cooler than the UK/English ne.


I think you're having a laugh because as noted on threads about Scottish independence Spain would be very likely to block accession for their own reasons.


----------



## Dogsauce (Oct 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Well, a good start for stopping it would be to not to have the suprastate that is neoliberal by design in the first place.  This tax sheltering isn’t an unfortunate side effect, it’s the whole point.



There have been moves against this in recent years, particularly focused on tech companies. Kind of why big money got behind the EU exit campaign in the first place, and why the exit was timed to avoid one particular bit of legislation.


----------



## two sheds (Oct 28, 2020)

Noooooooooooooo they lied to us  









						Government backtracks over false claim soy sauce will be cheaper after Brexit
					

Department for International Trade accused of ‘exaggerations and mistruths’




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Really - what was the fucking point of the last years when we don't even get cheaper soya sauce? We gave them our cheese for nothing


----------



## editor (Oct 28, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Scotland the only one opting back into the EU I see.


Plaid Cymru:  “We are firmly of the view that the long-term destiny of an independent Wales should be as a full member of the European Union.”


----------



## ska invita (Oct 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes please
> 
> View attachment 236244
> 
> ...


fuck nationalism with even more nationalism


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Noooooooooooooo they lied to us
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s not for nothing, we get to watch a nation with a large lactose intolerant population fart a lot.


----------



## philosophical (Oct 28, 2020)

flypanam said:


> In some sense that's true, but increasingly there is frustration with the antics of Irish Americans, and there is some downright loathing of emigrants who upped sticks and left because the 2008 great recession.
> 
> There is a loathing of the weepy fucks that cry about the home sod, who visit once in a lifetime and are shocked to discover that Ireland is not all comely maidens and cute hoors but somewhere that is increasingly more like everywhere else and increasingly not white and not catholic, and the vistors are seen as dupes to rip off with any auld tat.
> 
> ...



I suppose it is about different stages and circumstances.
My mother and her sisters left Ireland for the UK just after the war to go into nursing.
So my youth was spent going 'home' to rural Ireland (although I regard myself as a Londoner) and my immediate family had feet planted in both countries, indeed my brother is now in Ballycasey.
One legacy of my personal Irishness from roots in the far west, is a continual astonishlment regarding the notion of class which is so embedded and accepted over here, another legacy is that Irishness (and Catholicism) seems to mean a destructive expertise in the concept of guilt!


----------



## gosub (Oct 28, 2020)

editor said:


> An independent Wales would almost certainly be part of the EU. I've never seen anyone, ever suggest the need for passports or ID at the Welsh border, or insist that people would have to carry biometric passports on their person.
> 
> Plus the passport is a million times cooler than the UK/English ne.


Passports are an ICAO thing, which is UN.  And UN isn't in any great hurry to recognise split off states at the moment. Crimea cast quite a long shadow accord ing to a former Kosovan diplomat I talked to.


----------



## gentlegreen (Oct 28, 2020)

Minister sparks concerns about pig semen after Brexit
					

A business minister has sparked concerns about pig semen after his comments on post-Brexit border checks within the UK.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 28, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Minister sparks concerns about pig semen after Brexit
> 
> 
> A business minister has sparked concerns about pig semen after his comments on post-Brexit border checks within the UK.
> ...



Should ask David Cameron, he'll wank off as many pigs as you like.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 28, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Should ask David Cameron, he'll wank off as many pigs as you like.


I don't "like" any pigs. What are you trying to say?


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 28, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Minister sparks concerns about pig semen after Brexit
> 
> 
> A business minister has sparked concerns about pig semen after his comments on post-Brexit border checks within the UK.
> ...


Do they actually ship pig semen across the border that is carried externally to pigs? I did not know that and now that I do, I feel I was better off when I did not.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 28, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Do they actually ship pig semen across the border that is carried externally to pigs? I did not know that and now that I do, I feel I was better off when I did not.



As I understand it livestock farmers are always selling the stuff on, though I'm more familiar with it being cow semen as its cheaper and more efficient for dairy herds just to buy it and then do the whole business artificially than rent a bull for a bit.


----------



## Supine (Oct 28, 2020)

Now we've managed to secure soy sauce at the same price we already get it for what other golden delights do we have in store.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 28, 2020)

Don’t they wank off horses in to bin bags or something?


----------



## Sprocket. (Oct 28, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Don’t they wank off horses in to bin bags or something?


Only if someone is getting paid a lot I hope!


----------



## A380 (Oct 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes please
> 
> View attachment 236244
> 
> ...



Great, so once again, just like with the anthems at home nation games we get the most boring one. The Scots get a Unicorn and Flower  of Scotland, you lot get to belt out Hen Wlad Fy Nhadau and a fucking dragon. And what do we get? four bizarrely elongated Lions and a dirge not even royalists can sing properly. 

Taking all the money and power barely makes up for that.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Oct 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes please
> 
> View attachment 236244
> 
> ...



hmm

pending the independent feline republic of catford,


----------



## Smangus (Oct 29, 2020)

Yay for SE6!


----------



## andysays (Oct 29, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes please
> 
> View attachment 236244
> 
> ...


There's something a little ironic about someone who has regularly taken the piss out of Brexiteers supposedly all wanting British passports to return to their pre-EU colour and design getting all eager about designs for imaginary passports with some mythical beasts on them.


----------



## editor (Oct 29, 2020)

andysays said:


> There's something a little ironic about someone who has regularly taken the piss out of Brexiteers supposedly all wanting British passports to return to their pre-EU colour and design getting all eager about designs for imaginary passports with some mythical beasts on them.


Not sure where all this irony is coming from. 

I've always preferred to stay in the EU rather than indulge this embarrassing shitshow of Brexit,  and if England is determined to stay out of it, then I'd be happy to have a Welsh/EU passport. Plus it looks fucking cool which was actually the point, Mr No Humour.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2020)

Shit news for the UK bike industry





__





						Bloomberg - Are you a robot?
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## Badgers (Oct 30, 2020)

More good news  





__





						Plant inspectors and rising prices: UK garden industry set for Brexit shock | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Nurseries say doubling up of regulations will mean a rise in costs and EU suppliers going elsewhere<br>




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## andysays (Oct 30, 2020)

Badgers said:


> More good news
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Importing all our plants from industrial-scale producers in the Netherlands has never been a good thing.

It's actually had a significant negative impact on biodiversity and the spread of issues like ash die-back.

There is, or could be, a genuine opportunity for new local nurseries which actually produce their own plants with local provenance suited to particular local conditions rather then buying them all in from elsewhere.

(none of that means that I don't think the government aren't making a complete mess of Brexit generally, BTW)


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 2, 2020)

Is anything actual fucking going on then, or are we just going to find ourselves in WTO land before anyone knows what is happening? It seems to have disappeared off the radar this week, Covid dominating the news instead.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 2, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Don’t they wank off horses in to bin bags or something?


They Wank Horses, Don't They?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Is anything actual fucking going on then, or are we just going to find ourselves in WTO land before anyone knows what is happening? It seems to have disappeared off the radar this week, Covid dominating the news instead.


There's the theory the Tories are waiting for the outcome of the US election before knowing which way to jump (Trump-No Deal, Biden-Slim Deal). That's a simplistic formulation but I think there's some truth to it. We're leaving the EU and pivoting to the US, so the election does have huge significance.

Also supposedly they've gone a little into the tunnel, so neither side is briefing the press ATM.


----------



## maomao (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> theory the Tories are waiting for the outcome of the US election before knowing which way to jump (


Wonder which way they'll jump when the outcome is several weeks of chaos and uncertainty.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> Wonder which way they'll jump when the outcome is several weeks of chaos and uncertainty.


That would be funny.
I expect some chaos but I think the state beurocracy will kick in well enough and boot Trump out quickly if he's lost and refusing to go.
Tune in next week for another exciting episode of shit show


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> Wonder which way they'll jump when the outcome is several weeks of chaos and uncertainty.


Or years of recriminations


----------



## brogdale (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> That would be funny.
> I expect some chaos but I think the state beurocracy will kick in well enough and boot Trump out quickly if he's lost and refusing to go.
> Tune in next week for another exciting episode of shit show


The deep state 'Union' vrs the insurgent armies of the trumpfederacy?


----------



## maomao (Nov 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The deep state 'Union' vrs the insurgent armies of the trumpfederacy?


I listened to the 'It could happen here' podcast that Orang Utan was plugging a couple of months ago and am now convinced that it will be the catalyst for a genuine armed conflict. And it's not impossible.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> I listened to the 'It could happen here' podcast that Orang Utan was plugging a couple of months ago and am now convinced that it will be the catalyst for a genuine armed conflict. And it's not impossible.


With the 27 of the supra state backing one side and the UK the other?


----------



## ska invita (Nov 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> I listened to the 'It could happen here' podcast that Orang Utan was plugging a couple of months ago and am now convinced that it will be the catalyst for a genuine armed conflict. And it's not impossible.


i havent listened to it - will do
but i think for Trump to attempt a coup he'd need a lot of support - military, close cabal cabinet level, and within the republican party higher eschelons in general - I cant see it
are there some trump maniacs out there in the public - 100% - but they're a small squashable ineffective force
we'll find out tomorrow!


----------



## Yossarian (Nov 2, 2020)

maomao said:


> I listened to the 'It could happen here' podcast that Orang Utan was plugging a couple of months ago and am now convinced that it will be the catalyst for a genuine armed conflict. And it's not impossible.



I don't think it's escaped the attention of authorities in both the US and the UK that COVID restrictions can be abused to crush protests, as has happened in Hong Kong - not hard to imagine Trump declaring a nationwide and very selectively enforced lockdown for a couple of weeks after declaring victory.


----------



## maomao (Nov 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i havent listened to it - will do
> but i think for Trump to attempt a coup he'd need a lot of support - military, close cabal cabinet level, and within the republican party higher eschelons in general - I cant see it
> are there some trump maniacs out there in the public - 100% - but they're a small squashable ineffective force
> we'll find out tomorrow!



I can't see the armed right rising to snatch the election back from a clear loss but if he tries to declare early and snatch it the Republican party faced with years out of power might find it too tempting not to go along with it. Then  protests from the left could escalate and larger, better organised, versions of what's happened in Portland breaking out in other cities, troops being sent in to crush uprisings etc. Not impossible and I think the left is actually better organised and with more roots in urban communities than the assault weapon fetishists on the right. 

Anyway, wrong thread but it may take longer to get a clear result than they imagine.


----------



## Sue (Nov 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> to South Georgia to join the project for penguin conservation


Have you seen this?









						Giant Antarctic iceberg on collision course with British territory of South Georgia
					

Fears the 150km long A-68A iceberg, which broke away from Larsen C ice shelf in 2017, could disrupt wildlife and shipping routes




					www.theguardian.com
				




May need to consider the implications for your plans....


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2020)

Sue said:


> Have you seen this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, I am taking bookings for the 2021 Grytviken ice festival which will eclipse Harbin's feeble effort


----------



## ska invita (Nov 5, 2020)

if youd like to read something funny to round off the day.....











						If Biden wins UK will suffer badly – entirely because of REMAINERS
					

IF Joe Biden sneaks a win in this messiest of US elections Britain will face terrible economic damage.




					www.express.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if youd like to read something funny to round off the day.....
> 
> 
> View attachment 237404
> ...



How have those people from the local paper letters page been given a national newspaper to run?


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 5, 2020)

I’m still trying to get my head round the logic of that statement. Probably shouldn’t have bothered as there likely isn’t any.

I reckon Johnson had high hopes of a trump victory, probably given some reassuring numbers from whatever Cambridge Analytica type  outfit was bending the will of the US electorate and motivating non-voting racists etc., but then it just hasn’t quite come through so his plan of sticking the economy on a US life-raft post a no-deal fuck up has sunk. The ideas cupboard is probably bare. Time to sell the fishing industry down the river and take whatever shitty deal Barnier offers.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 5, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I’m still trying to get my head round the logic of that statement.


what statement?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> what statement?



'It's all remainers' fault' I assume.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 5, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'It's all remainers' fault' I assume.


ah,'statement' confused me... 'swivel eyed ramblings' more accurate


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 5, 2020)

This trope about the US election is pointless, even in rooted in Johnson’s kaleidoscope worldview . The US does what is good for the US, not  what is good for everyone else. There will be no real advantage to being chums with a resurgent Phoenix like trump or a more likely dawn of the undead Biden.  We don’t get favours that cost the US anything despite our self proclaimed position of being besties with the prez.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 5, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> This trope about the US election is pointless, even in rooted in Johnson’s kaleidoscope worldview . The US does what is good for the US, not  what is good for everyone else. There will be no real advantage to being chums with a resurgent Phoenix like trump or a more likely dawn of the undead Biden.  We don’t get favours that cost the US anything despite our self proclaimed position of being besties with the prez.



I’m sure Trump would have offered a favourable deal to the U.K. in order to encourage more states to split off from the EU, making an example of how well it could go. His backers want the superstate dismantled.  Whether any such plan would get through Congress is questionable.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> if youd like to read something funny to round off the day.....
> 
> 
> View attachment 237404
> ...




yes, pretty sure nothing is the brexiteers fault - particular putting themselves in a position where random countries can fuck them


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 5, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I’m still trying to get my head round the logic of that statement. Probably shouldn’t have bothered as there likely isn’t any.
> 
> I reckon Johnson had high hopes of a trump victory, probably given some reassuring numbers from whatever Cambridge Analytica type  outfit was bending the will of the US electorate and motivating non-voting racists etc., but then it just hasn’t quite come through so his plan of sticking the economy on a US life-raft post a no-deal fuck up has sunk. The ideas cupboard is probably bare. Time to sell the fishing industry down the river and take whatever shitty deal Barnier offers.


The thought that Johnson is feeling depressed at the sight of the Tangerine Turd slowly and painfully losing (the election and his marbles) is the cherry on top as far as I am concerned.


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 5, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I’m sure Trump would have offered a favourable deal to the U.K. in order to encourage more states to split off from the EU, making an example of how well it could go. His backers want the superstate dismantled.  Whether any such plan would get through Congress is questionable.



I doubt it'd have been that favourable.  The US would protect its interests as ruthlessly as it always does, but where it could be done without causing domestic ructions they'd probably throw in a few concessions to give the appearance of generosity.  As you say, they want to peel off more states from the EU, and shafting the UK too egregiously wouldn't be a good start.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 5, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> This trope about the US election is pointless, even in rooted in Johnson’s kaleidoscope worldview . The US does what is good for the US, not  what is good for everyone else. There will be no real advantage to being chums with a resurgent Phoenix like trump or a more likely dawn of the undead Biden.  We don’t get favours that cost the US anything despite our self proclaimed position of being besties with the prez.



This is true but the uk political class has a real boner for the special relationship even after decades of the us doing whatever it likes. 

“But I can change him!” About sums it up.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 5, 2020)

Its not looking promising for the borders at the moment.









						With less than two months left, let's check in on Brexit: All IT systems are up and running and ready to go, says no one
					

Oh sorry, did you expect this headline to work out differently?




					www.theregister.com


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 6, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its not looking promising for the borders at the moment.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Or Kent:


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Or Kent:



They'll doubtless be known as kapos


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2020)

__





						Goldman Moving Up to $60 Billion of Assets to Germany
					





					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## TopCat (Nov 8, 2020)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh no! What can be done to appease them?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Oh no! What can be done to appease them?


Yeah.. 

But there are a lot of 'not cunt' jobs going to go with them. 

If Woolworths was reopening they might have a chance


----------



## TopCat (Nov 8, 2020)

But seriously,  how do you appease capital? Offer a more favourable tax regime?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 8, 2020)

Reintroduce exchange controls? Unlikely.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2020)

TopCat said:


> But seriously,  how do you appease capital? Offer a more favourable tax regime?


With this government and opposition?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 8, 2020)

Badgers said:


> With this government and opposition?


Yeah.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 8, 2020)

Starmer will do anything to look good to money.


----------



## philosophical (Nov 8, 2020)

On the Andrew Marr programme this morning Dominic Rabb said the Good Friday Agreement was not under threat from the UK but from the EU.
Putting to one side that he is totally wrong in saying that, and the reverse of what he said is the truth, what he seems to be acknowledging is that the Good Friday Agreement is indeed under threat.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 8, 2020)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They’re moving assets.  As in, the location of their investments.  Not jobs.  Just money.  Because that’s what the EU is — the ability to shift money around at the drop of a hat.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 8, 2020)

kabbes said:


> They’re moving assets.  As in, the location of their investments.  Not jobs.  Just money.  Because that’s what the EU is — the ability to shift money around at the drop of a hat.


It is the first phase


----------



## kabbes (Nov 8, 2020)

Badgers said:


> It is the first phase


No it’s not.  It’s just Tuesday.

Have you any idea how much money Goldman’s are responsible for?  60bn is pocket change.


----------



## two sheds (Nov 8, 2020)

Following on from Truss' soya sauce triumph,









						Liz Truss’s tariff ‘wins’ in her Japan trade deal are for products UK doesn’t export
					

Exclusive: Taxes cut on birds’ eggs, raw hides, fur skins and ultra-strong spirits – but UK does not export them anyway




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Taxes cut on birds’ eggs, raw hides, fur skins and ultra-strong spirits – which the UK doesn't export


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 8, 2020)

Perhaps they're in a parallel universe playing Elite and think they're trading Fur and Liquor/Wines between Lave and Orerve.


----------



## alex_ (Nov 9, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Perhaps they're in a parallel universe playing Elite and think they're trading Fur and Liquor/Wines between Lave and Orerve.



what they’ve been up too makes a lot more sense on this basis.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 9, 2020)

Everyone's favourite curry muncher is spending the evening pissing over Boris.




At this stage it's irrelevant as the conservatives are no longer split between the pro and anti EU factions they have been for last half century because the pro have been thoroughly whipped, but it's fun to read.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 10, 2020)

This is just beyond ridiculous now









						Johnson Presses on With Brexit Law-Break Plan After Lords Defeat
					

The U.K.’s House of Lords rejected government plans to break international law over Brexit, putting the onus back on Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who immediately vowed to push ahead with the legislation.




					www.bloomberg.com
				






> The U.K.’s House of Lords rejected government plans to break international law over Brexit, putting the onus back on Prime Minister Boris Johnson, who immediately vowed to push ahead with the legislation.
> Peers voted late Monday to remove the most controversial parts of the Internal Market Bill, which gives ministers the power to unilaterally rewrite parts of the Withdrawal Agreement that Johnson signed with the European Union.
> The legislation has prompted the EU to take legal action just as the two sides are locked in negotiations to strike a trade and security deal. But the prime minister has refused to back down over the plan, which the government has conceded will break international law in a “specific and limited” way....


----------



## Flavour (Nov 10, 2020)

January will be interesting. Johnson is gonna soak up all the blame for how shit Brexit is so someone else can step in and keep Tory ratings up? Is that the strategy now? Seems like it


----------



## ska invita (Nov 10, 2020)

Flavour said:


> January will be interesting. Johnson is gonna soak up all the blame for how shit Brexit is so someone else can step in and keep Tory ratings up? Is that the strategy now? Seems like it


i think 7 to 1 on Gove is a good bet


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Everyone's favourite curry muncher is spending the evening pissing over Boris.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Never thought I would EVER find myself agreeing with the Prince of Greyness but the man is right


----------



## editor (Nov 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Never thought I would EVER find myself agreeing with the Prince of Greyness but the man is right


Compared to what we've got now, Major was positively left wing.


----------



## gosub (Nov 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i think 7 to 1 on Gove is a good bet
> View attachment 238169



Think Hunt at 12 is a better one.   Head of Health Committee - can't not be enquiries into this years Covid fuckups and tories would rather pretend there weren't any


----------



## ska invita (Nov 10, 2020)

This intervention is hilarious



> Ian Duncan Shit told _Channel 4 News_:
> "It's nothing to do with them and we will get on with our legislation.
> "We are a sovereign nation, that's what we voted for.
> "And therefore sovereign nations have the right to be sovereign."
> ...


great trade deal negotiating  
someones needs to remind IDS its the UK thats been acting desperate for contact with the US, not the other way around


----------



## alex_ (Nov 10, 2020)

editor said:


> Compared to what we've got now, Major was positively left wing.



and competent, with a cabinet full of top brains


----------



## alex_ (Nov 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i think 7 to 1 on Gove is a good bet
> View attachment 238169



Look at the price on next pm tho - rishi and starmer are neck and neck which implies Johnson will last full term


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 10, 2020)

alex_ said:


> Look at the price on next pm tho - rishi and starmer are neck and neck which implies Johnson will last full term



Or that the people who come up with odds have no more knowledge what will happen than you or I. Brexit is still, somehow, completely up in the air. If Johnson can pull off anything short of a total catastrophe there then he'll probably have done enough to keep his job until the next GE, assuming he actually wants to. 

For my money Johnson will stay on for the duration even though he doesn't actually want to, because he's too vain and narcissistic to do otherwise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2020)

alex_ said:


> Look at the price on next pm tho - rishi and starmer are neck and neck which implies Johnson will last full term


no it doesn't

we've been through this lots of times, about bookies' odds not being your actual probabilities


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 10, 2020)

I don't believe BoZo will last the full term, the man just can't build consensus. Clearly with an 80 seat majority he doesn't need to build consensus outside the Conservative Party but he doesn't even really try with his own MP's. They will forgive him a lot in the short term because he has delivered a massive majority and revitalised their fortunes but with every cockup and fudge he delivers, I expect them to get more and more narked with his dictatorial style and the fact that quite frankly he not's actually very good at being PM.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> I don't believe BoZo will last the full term, the man just can't build consensus. Clearly with an 80 seat majority he doesn't need to build consensus outside the Conservative Party but he doesn't even really try with his own MP's. They will forgive him a lot in the short term because he has delivered a massive majority and revitalised their fortunes but with every cockup and fudge he delivers, I expect them to get more and more narked with his dictatorial style and the fact that quite frankly he not's actually very good at being PM.


he's not very good at being a human at all

the sooner he's in penguin bellies the better


----------



## Lucy Fur (Nov 10, 2020)

Flavour said:


> January will be interesting. Johnson is gonna soak up all the blame for how shit Brexit is so someone else can step in and keep Tory ratings up? Is that the strategy now? Seems like it


Johnson is a living walking shit sponge. I reckon about March will be peak saturation, and therefore the end of his use to the Tories.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 10, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Johnson is a living walking shit sponge. I reckon about March will be peak saturation, and therefore the end of his use to the Tories.


He'd be more use dead than alive

I'm sure we all remember 101 uses for a john major


----------



## Badgers (Nov 11, 2020)

Fresh Brexit border chaos fears as handbook to prevent meltdown on 1 January is delayed
					

Work on inspection posts for animal products crossing Irish Sea ‘has not yet started and will take up to six months to complete’




					www.independent.co.uk
				




#ovenready


----------



## Badgers (Nov 11, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Nov 11, 2020)

City of London to be shut out of EU with no equivalence deal from January
					

Brussels looks set to lock the City of London out of European markets from 1 January, with the EU not planning on granting regulatory equivalence for the whole bloc before the end of the Brexit transition period.




					www.cityam.com


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



to help display that:


----------



## ska invita (Nov 11, 2020)

Interesting in that diagram that "probability too low to be able to assess" (signified by dotted lines) of Johnson insisting on maintaining the illegal parts of IM bill  - considered a "theoretical"  < what do i know, but I got the impression he's sticking with that.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 12, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



So there’s nothing to worry about — deal beats no deal by 44% to 43%.  What a relief.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2020)

Kent's Brexshit issues raise their ugly head again...

Post-Brexit lorry queues could make Kent 'toilet of England'



Some particularly fine buck-passing at the end of that piece:



> A spokeswoman for the Department for Transport referred questions to Highways England. A spokeswoman for Highways England said: “We are working with a number of partners to put contingency plans in place.” But she referred questions about toilet facilities for lorry drivers back to the department and to Kent county council.
> 
> A Kent county council spokesman said waste clearance was the responsibility of district and borough councils.


----------



## Supine (Nov 12, 2020)

^ it's a shit situation but the kent's voted for it


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2020)

Supine said:


> ^ it's a shit situation but the kent's voted for it


We've been over this soooo many times


----------



## Winot (Nov 12, 2020)

Drawbridge up - no access to EU representation for British solicitors via Irish qualification unless they are resident in Ireland.









						Ireland closes EU door to British solicitors
					

Law Society of Ireland review concludes that England and Wales-based solicitors will not be entitled to Irish practising certificates.




					www.lawgazette.co.uk


----------



## teuchter (Nov 12, 2020)

Winot said:


> Drawbridge up - no access to EU representation for British solicitors via Irish qualification unless they are resident in Ireland.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The headline says "British" and the article says "England and Wales"... which is it?


----------



## Winot (Nov 12, 2020)

teuchter said:


> The headline says "British" and the article says "England and Wales"... which is it?



Don't know but I suspect Scottish lawyers are excluded too.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 12, 2020)

Winot said:


> Don't know but I suspect Scottish lawyers are excluded too.


For the time being.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 12, 2020)

Winot said:


> Don't know but I suspect Scottish lawyers are excluded too.



I'd expect a greater level of precision from something like the Law Gazette.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 13, 2020)




----------



## andysays (Nov 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



<something about moving the goalposts>


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2020)

#worldbeating


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 238755
> 
> #worldbeating


Bothered?
They don't pay tax.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 14, 2020)

It is nothing to do with my personal opinion on the financial pluses and minuses of Brexit, but “lost economic growth” is in no way comparable with “contributions paid out”.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It is nothing to do with my personal opinion on the financial pluses and minuses of Brexit, but “lost economic growth” is in no way comparable with “contributions paid out”.


Cheers. I thought it seemed a bit out/simplistic. 

Still shit though


----------



## kabbes (Nov 14, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Cheers. I thought it seemed a bit out/simplistic.
> 
> Still shit though


There is no doubt that Brexit has been a massive drag on GDP.  How much that should bother people is genuinely worth proper discussion.  The hegemonic view of a reified “economy” as an entity that is worth sacrificing anything in the service of is _definitely_ something that needs to be brought into the light for proper examination.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2020)

kabbes said:


> There is no doubt that Brexit has been a massive drag on GDP.  How much that should bother people is genuinely worth proper discussion.  The hegemonic view of a reified “economy” as an entity that is worth sacrificing anything in the service of is _definitely_ something that needs to be brought into the light for proper examination.


Yup. 

I am kind of involved now via a contract/project. It is pretty staggering how much is still not agreed or ready


----------



## magneze (Nov 14, 2020)

At least nothing else major happened to the economy this year that might have affected the calculation.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 14, 2020)

Such a 20th century view...who cares about the real economy as long as the stock market is booming


----------



## andysays (Nov 14, 2020)

Felixstowe Port in 'chaos' as Christmas and Brexit loom



> Some shipping and haulage companies have complained of "chaos" at Felixstowe Port in Suffolk, affecting goods in the run up to Christmas. One ship due to be unloaded at the port last week was redirected to Rotterdam because of "unacceptable" delays.





> The owner, Hutchison Ports, blames pre-Brexit stockpiling and the pandemic. Freight manager Matt Hudson warned that "if the chaos continues, increased shipping prices will be passed on to consumers".


----------



## On Fire (Nov 14, 2020)

The British government needs to make concessions and get a trade deal with the EU. It will be a disaster if there is no deal Brexit come January 1st. There would be an endless truck park in Kent and shortages of vital goods including medications.
Boris Johnson, do not let this happen. It would radically hasten your departure from 10 Downing Street, as voters, even those who voted for Brexit, would not forgive you.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 14, 2020)

On Fire said:


> Boris Johnson, do not let this happen. It would radically hasten your departure from 10 Downing Street, as voters, even those who voted for Brexit, would not forgive you.


I dont think he reads urban
maybe looks at the naked thread

seriously though, i think there'll be queues even if there is a deal? anything short of a customs union means paperwork


----------



## On Fire (Nov 14, 2020)

ska invita said:


> seriously though, i think there'll be queues even if there is a deal? anything short of a customs union means paperwork



I think you are probably right. Brexit was a serious mistake of historic proportions.
I am sure the country will get over it eventually though.

The French will probably make life really difficult for us and cause massive delays.

Hopefully the Irish peace process does not collapse. 

What were we thinking to have voted for this?


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 14, 2020)

On Fire said:


> The British government needs to make concessions and get a trade deal with the EU. It will be a disaster if there is no deal Brexit come January 1st. There would be an endless truck park in Kent and shortages of vital goods including medications.
> Boris Johnson, do not let this happen. It would radically hasten your departure from 10 Downing Street, as voters, even those who voted for Brexit, would not forgive you.


#ovenreadydeal.

simples....


----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2020)

On Fire said:


> I think you are probably right. Brexit was a serious mistake of historic proportions.
> I am sure the country will get over it eventually though.
> 
> The French will probably make life really difficult for us and cause massive delays.
> ...


Why do you think people voted for leaving?


----------



## On Fire (Nov 14, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Why do you think people voted for leaving?



After the bank bailouts and austerity, people sort of had enough, and embraced what they had always read in a major part of the British press - that Europe was bad and to blame.
Without austerity, Britain would never have voted to leave the EU.


----------



## Supine (Nov 14, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Why do you think people voted for leaving?



They were bored?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2020)

There's so much polling evidence about the declared drivers of decision making in the 2016 referendum; do we really need to go over all that again?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> There's so much polling evidence about the declared drivers of decision making in the 2016 referendum; do we really need to go over all that again?
> 
> View attachment 238831



Pity that national sovereignty in this ever connected global world is a myth unless your the US, China or North Korea (on behalf of China)


----------



## brogdale (Nov 14, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Pity that national sovereignty in this ever connected global world is a myth unless your the US, China or North Korea (on behalf of China)


"...declared..." doing the Gramscian heavy lift, there


----------



## teqniq (Nov 14, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


>



Quality.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 14, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Quality.


There could be fish in there? Might up the quota for our brave Kings of the Sea!


----------



## brogdale (Nov 15, 2020)

If only HMRC had been given any clue that the site at *Waterbrook park *might be flood-prone.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> If only HMRC had been given any clue that the site at *Waterbrook park *might be flood-prone.


2Hats posted the other day

"The WMO has notified that a moderate-to-strong La Niña has developed.
This usually influences UK climate towards a milder/wetter/stormier 1/2Q2020 winter due to an amplified North Atlantic jet stream."
...a wet winter beckons

If it has been built on a flood plain we'll find out soon enough


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2020)

We can all breathe easy now folks


----------



## teqniq (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We can all breathe easy now folks
> 
> View attachment 238929




Yeah saw this earlier. What a fucking joke.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We can all breathe easy now folks
> 
> View attachment 238929


Coronavirus patients report feeling a 'fizzing' sensation


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We can all breathe easy now folks
> 
> View attachment 238929


What a pity they're all utter shit


----------



## Maltin (Nov 15, 2020)

andysays said:


> Felixstowe Port in 'chaos' as Christmas and Brexit loom


It’s a good job they employed Chris Grayling to help.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We can all breathe easy now folks
> 
> View attachment 238929



He’s discovered that human meat doesn’t attract tariffs under WTO rules. Sunlit uplands ahead.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 15, 2020)

Maltin said:


> It’s a good job they employed Chris Grayling to help.


Poor Failing Grayling. He can't be earning much now can he?


----------



## Maltin (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Poor Failing Grayling. He can't be earning much now can he?


I’m not sure how he can manage on £100k for one day a week.


----------



## editor (Nov 15, 2020)

How is this a bad thing?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 15, 2020)

you'd think they'd be in favour what with one of them wearing union jacks


----------



## Supine (Nov 15, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?



The Leave Alliance are twats. The rest is ok


----------



## editor (Nov 15, 2020)

I'd love it if London looked more like that.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 15, 2020)

Only proper ringpieces are obsessed with Khan.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 15, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?
> 
> View attachment 239056


There's no way stoppping and searching that Beefeater is justified.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 15, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?
> 
> View attachment 239056



Union flag is fucking hideous


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Nov 15, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We can all breathe easy now folks
> 
> View attachment 238929


Johnson fizzing with ideas is it? 10 different ways to slip out of the office early to shag a Ukrainian violinist perhaps?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 16, 2020)

Brexit: UK proposes grace period for goods moving between Britain and NI
					

British government accepts consignments would still be subject to checks and controls




					www.irishtimes.com
				








> Seamus Leheny





> from the Freight Transport Association in Northern Ireland said a grace period would be “not just welcome, it’s required, it’s needed, because especially for food, we just aren’t ready.
> 
> “We don’t have the infrastructure to deal with it, the IT systems we haven’t had sight of yet, how SPS will link in with customs, and manufacturers in GB, they have to get their packaging, labelling, pallets up to scratch for moving in here, that’s not ready.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?
> 
> View attachment 239056


i am always wary of people who don't cast shadows


----------



## Badgers (Nov 16, 2020)




----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> He’s discovered that human meat doesn’t attract tariffs under WTO rules. Sunlit uplands ahead.



Bet he wishes he'd fed all those hungry kids now.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 16, 2020)

Badgers said:


>




Project Fear.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 16, 2020)

In (adequate supplies) Brexit-Britain every day will be a fish day.


----------



## prunus (Nov 17, 2020)

Well this sounds like good news 

DfE tells schools to stock up on long-life products in case of no-deal Brexit


----------



## A380 (Nov 18, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?
> 
> View attachment 239056



That police officer’s  uniform is a mismatched disgrace. Only inspectors and above get a belted tunic whilst, of course, the Custodian ‘pointy hat’ helmet is only worn by constables and sergeants. Basic error.


----------



## A380 (Nov 18, 2020)

editor said:


> How is this a bad thing?
> 
> View attachment 239056



I’m also starting to suspect that that soldier may not actually be a member of the Guards Division.


----------



## editor (Nov 18, 2020)

A380 said:


> I’m also starting to suspect that that soldier may not actually be a member of the Guards Division.


We'd win more wars if that was a proper soldier. Imagine 1,000 of then coming over the top. There's no way they'd let anyone smudge their lipstick and the enemy could probably only stand up and applaud their wonderful style.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 18, 2020)

__





						Failure to seal post-Brexit deal would more than halve UK growth, says KPMG | Economic growth (GDP) | The Guardian
					

Accountancy firm warns of stalled economic recovery without EU trade agreement




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> Yael Selfin, the chief economist at KPMG UK, said the economic boost for all advanced economies from an early vaccine would be undermined by Brexit. “The impact of Brexit will single the UK out among advanced economies next year,” she said.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 18, 2020)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The entrepreneurial underclass can set up their own horseburger vans next to the M20. Oh, and you can use the portalaloo but it’s two quid a go mate.  Easy money, boom times.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 18, 2020)

Just wondering... 

If the test and trace is "world beating' then what will 'adequate food' look like?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Just wondering...
> 
> If the test and trace is "world beating' then what will 'adequate food' look like?


Portions of adequate food will be served to the former people on their voyage to the saiz

It's like spuds with beans and cheese only without the beans, cheese or spuds


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

editor said:


> We'd win more wars if that was a proper soldier. Imagine 1,000 of then coming over the top. There's no way they'd let anyone smudge their lipstick and the enemy could probably only stand up and applaud their wonderful style.


I think you exaggerate the ease with which battlefields can be negotiated in high heels


----------



## teqniq (Nov 18, 2020)

Um... what?


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Just wondering...
> 
> If the test and trace is "world beating' then what will 'adequate food' look like?


Monbiot is on that today...





I've made sure my old Mum has got a small stock of canned grub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Monbiot is on that today...
> 
> View attachment 239357
> 
> ...


I'm beginning to think we'll need a bigger stock


----------



## A380 (Nov 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> ...
> 
> It's like spuds with beans and cheese only without the beans, cheese or spuds



But plenty of kelp. Up to 225gm per former person per day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

A380 said:


> But plenty of kelp. Up to 225gm per former person per day.


Must fatten them up for the penguins


----------



## gosub (Nov 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Monbiot is on that today...
> 
> View attachment 239357
> 
> ...


At least they are consistent,  Petition: Eliminate MPs having food and drinks expenses covered.  the tax payers money MP's get for food is nothing to do with government either


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> At least they are consistent,  Petition: Eliminate MPs having food and drinks expenses covered.  the tax payers money MP's get for food is nothing to do with government either


Should just have stopped after mps


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> At least they are consistent,  Petition: Eliminate MPs having food and drinks expenses covered.  the tax payers money MP's get for food is nothing to do with government either


Or after drinks


----------



## rubbershoes (Nov 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I'd expect a greater level of precision from something like the Law Gazette.



It's journalistic standards are pretty low. Half of it is barely rehashed press releases


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 18, 2020)

Anyone know where we are at with cabotage?


----------



## Supine (Nov 18, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Anyone know where we are at with cabotage?



Still unorganised I'd imagine


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2020)

Dig for victory


----------



## Raheem (Nov 18, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Dig for victory


Loose lips hire ferry companies with no ships.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 18, 2020)

Seemingly at each and every moment of Brexit crisis, the ever co-operative Nissan corp pops up with helpful noises off.



_Of course, we had to strike a deal...national interest...jobs...blah._


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 18, 2020)

TBF they've pretty much said this even before the referendum but it's probably not going to change the outcome either way at this point


----------



## gosub (Nov 18, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Anyone know where we are at with cabotage?







__





						ECMT international road haulage permits
					

Permits to travel to or through European Conference of Ministers of Transport (ECMT) member countries, and the rules you have to follow.




					www.gov.uk
				







__





						[Withdrawn] Air services from the EU to the UK if there is a no-deal Brexit
					

Policy statement on UK position on rights for airlines from EU countries, and the basis on which flights will continue if there is a no-deal Brexit.




					www.gov.uk
				





Fucked.

Can't see any logic in holding a UK AOC, and on road EU's idea of a level playing field takes no account of UK DERV prices


----------



## Johnny Doe (Nov 19, 2020)

Via email from Barclays today:


----------



## Johnny Doe (Nov 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Seemingly at each and every moment of Brexit crisis, the ever co-operative Nissan corp pops up with helpful noises off.
> 
> View attachment 239410
> 
> _Of course, we had to strike a deal...national interest...jobs...blah._



To be fair, 'you're not actually going through with this, you stupid cunts?', probably isn't considered acceptable language in global corporations press releases


----------



## brogdale (Nov 19, 2020)

‘Being with Barclays’ was/is always wrong.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 20, 2020)




----------



## Flavour (Nov 20, 2020)

Putting their foot down lol


----------



## ska invita (Nov 20, 2020)

On the subject of border prepartations
A thread :


or the article is in the link there


----------



## brogdale (Nov 20, 2020)

That Biden/Johnson phone call last week must have been a corker!


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 20, 2020)

__





						Amazon.co.uk:Customer reviews: Benefits of Brexit: A Comprehensive Analysis: Volume 1
					

Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Benefits of Brexit: A Comprehensive Analysis: Volume 1 at Amazon.com.  Read honest and unbiased product reviews from our users.



					www.amazon.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That Biden/Johnson phone call last week must have been a corker!
> 
> View attachment 239674


we're just waiting for the ill eu person to recover so the british delegation will be able to kiss the arses of all the eu negotiators.


----------



## spring-peeper (Nov 20, 2020)

Looks like a Canada/UK deal will be signed soon.









						Canada, Britain could reveal new trade deal in coming days: source - National | Globalnews.ca
					

Details of a new Canada and Britain trade deal -- currently facing a Dec. 31 deadline -- could be revealed in the coming days, according to a source.




					globalnews.ca


----------



## quiet guy (Nov 20, 2020)

How much Maple syrup do we have to agree to?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2020)

quiet guy said:


> How much Maple syrup do we have to agree to?


It's the poutine that's holding things up


----------



## Raheem (Nov 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's the poutine that's holding things up


----------



## quiet guy (Nov 21, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2020)

British ski workers ‘set to lose seasonal jobs’ after Brexit
					

Instructors, chalet cooks, drivers and nannies among 25,000 who may no longer be eligible to take up posts in EU countries




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Nov 22, 2020)

FFS


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 22, 2020)

I hadn't thought about them ... 
I wonder how it will work with  educational placements and internships ...
Apparently a lot of Brexit-voting holiday home owners are confused about the 3 month limit ...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Apparently a lot of Brexit-voting holiday home owners are confused about the 3 month limit ...


HA HA HA


----------



## TopCat (Nov 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> I hadn't thought about them ...
> I wonder how it will work with  educational placements and internships ...
> Apparently a lot of Brexit-voting holiday home owners are confused about the 3 month limit ...


My heart weeps for all owners of second homes. It must be so difficult.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 22, 2020)

that ski thing is interesting- the brits work for pretty much exclusively brit companies in the resorts & live in with the other brits - not sure if locals would be welcomed for this particular very brit model of a ski holiday. locals have been up in arms in many resorts with experienced winter sport czechs/slovaks being brought in for the actual ski support roles / lift work and suchlike.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 23, 2020)

Covid and Brexit could see UK manufacturers bringing it all back home
					

Up to £4.8bn worth of goods for British retailers can be made locally, says report




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Covid and Brexit could see UK manufacturers bringing it all back home
> 
> 
> Up to £4.8bn worth of goods for British retailers can be made locally, says report
> ...


All well and good of course but bringing home low paid manufacturing jobs making t-shirts and shoes but shipping out high paid manufacturing jobs making cars, jet engines and electronics isn't all that great a deal.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 23, 2020)

It’ll still be cheaper to pay 50p and hour and pay import duty than making it locally


----------



## Chz (Nov 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> that ski thing is interesting- the brits work for pretty much exclusively brit companies in the resorts & live in with the other brits - not sure if locals would be welcomed for this particular very brit model of a ski holiday. locals have been up in arms in many resorts with experienced winter sport czechs/slovaks being brought in for the actual ski support roles / lift work and suchlike.


Not to worry, a good number of ski companies aren't expected to live through Covid, so Brexit can't hurt them!
(Mrs. C's workplace - a high-end ski vacation company - went bust last week)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 23, 2020)

Don’t wanna provoke another virtual scuffle between the various factions, but lots of chat about Nissan properly jumping ship now


----------



## Crispy (Nov 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Don’t wanna provoke another virtual scuffle between the various factions, but lots of chat about Nissan properly jumping ship now


"We really mean it!" 
(they do mean it, but they are trying hard to get the point across)


----------



## brogdale (Nov 24, 2020)

French trials for post-Brexit "checks" gave us a glimpse of the ghost of Christmas Yet to Come.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 24, 2020)

> Last week Kent county council also expressed worries over the welfare of animals that could be stuck in lorries in the event of a standstill.
> 
> “We do have concerns over the impact the road system will have, and particularly the impact on animals in transit,” said Steve Rock, head of trading standards.



If only there were some sort of solution that involved not transporting live animals. Shame there isn't one, really.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 25, 2020)

Freight Industry Perspective: Customs Clearance in Post-Brexit Britain
					

International freight forwarder John Shirley offers his perspective on the future of the UK-EU customs relationship after Brexit.




					ucleuropeblog.com
				






> While the exact figures are difficult to obtain and as yet, still up in the air, my calculations for the cost of the end of the transition period paint a bleak picture. Between the increased costs to British importers and exporters, the demurrage costs for goods possibly delayed for a fortnight, multiplied by the thousands of trucks crossing the Channel, importers and exporters may be looking at an annual burden of more than £33 billion. The long-term effects of customs clearance could be even more dire, similar perhaps, to self-imposed sanctions.


----------



## gosub (Nov 25, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Freight Industry Perspective: Customs Clearance in Post-Brexit Britain
> 
> 
> International freight forwarder John Shirley offers his perspective on the future of the UK-EU customs relationship after Brexit.
> ...



At least the added paperwork is creating jobs.....










						Brexit Creates Jobs for Customs Staff in Eastern Europe, India
					

U.K. companies are turning to cheaper overseas labor to complete their post-Brexit customs paperwork, creating jobs in countries such as Romania and India due to a shortage of trained staff in Britain.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## andysays (Nov 25, 2020)

gosub said:


> At least the added paperwork is creating jobs.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The old "shortage of trained staff in Britain" line, eh?

It's lucky for British capital there just happen to be people in Romania and India already trained to fill in forms relating to post EU british imports and exports. And I'm sure it's coincidence they just happen to work for lower rates of pay...


----------



## Badgers (Nov 26, 2020)

gosub said:


> At least the added paperwork is creating jobs.....


If there is one silver lining (personally/selfishly) in this shitfest of nonsense it has given me a job in NI customs  could write a lot (maybe a book) about how terrible it all is but will defer that for now.


----------



## bimble (Nov 27, 2020)

I think i've been avoiding looking at what the fuck they are doing in the same way you might look away from a car crash instead of staring at it.
Vaguely get the impression Johnson is going to sign whatever shit deal there is to sign but only if he thinks he can do it without being defenstrated by the loons he himself installed?
Who are these people who care so much about fish what is wrong with them. We will not surrender our fish ! ffs.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> I think i've been avoiding looking at what the fuck they are doing in the same way you might look away from a car crash instead of staring at it.
> Vaguely get the impression Johnson is going to sign whatever shit deal there is to sign but only if he thinks he can do it without being defenstrated by the loons he himself installed?
> Who are these people who care so much about fish what is wrong with them. We will not surrender our fish ! ffs.
> View attachment 240648


redwood is a loon for decades now. that tweet is about the least offensive thing he is capable of saying


----------



## kabbes (Nov 27, 2020)

I’m going to say it.  Fuck the fish.


----------



## 2hats (Nov 27, 2020)

Which fish? The ones with "Made in Great Britain" tattooed on their undersides, or the ones made by Johnny Foreigner?


----------



## Badgers (Nov 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m going to say it.  Fuck the fish.


No chance of 'save the fish'?


----------



## two sheds (Nov 27, 2020)

or 'batter the fish'


----------



## teqniq (Nov 28, 2020)

Heh.


----------



## miss direct (Nov 28, 2020)

I dont mean to sound thick but I havent paid attention to brexit news (makes no difference in Turkey) but have a potentially silly question. Will things like cheese  and chianti suddenly go up in price in the new year? If so ill stock up.. life has so few pleasures....


----------



## Raheem (Nov 28, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Will things like cheese  and chianti suddenly go up in price in the new year?


In the UK or in Turkey?


----------



## miss direct (Nov 28, 2020)

Raheem said:


> In the UK or in Turkey?


Uk 
(you can't get that stuff in Turkey unless you pay $$$$$$$$$ and travel half way across the country.)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 28, 2020)

Some British wine magnate was heavily behind Brexit unsurprisingly.


----------



## Raheem (Nov 28, 2020)

miss direct said:


> you can't get that stuff in Turkey


It's called turkey stuffing, although I'm not surprised you can't get it.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 28, 2020)

miss direct said:


> I dont mean to sound thick but I havent paid attention to brexit news (makes no difference in Turkey) but have a potentially silly question. Will things like cheese  and chianti suddenly go up in price in the new year? If so ill stock up.. life has so few pleasures....


We’ll be able to get much cheaper Parmesan and Chianti, they just won’t be from Italy.


----------



## weltweit (Nov 28, 2020)

As I understand it Barnier has offered tapering access to UK fishing grounds, tapering to no access in perhaps 15 years time. Seems quite positive to me.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 28, 2020)

In 15 years none of the EU, the UK, or north sea fish stocks will probably exist anyway.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Nov 28, 2020)

weltweit said:


> As I understand it Barnier has offered tapering access to UK fishing grounds, tapering to no access in perhaps 15 years time. Seems quite positive to me.



A tapered no access to fractions of zero. We don't have the stocks to sustain the Brexit fantasies of cod piled up as tall as a man on Grimsby quay.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 28, 2020)

weltweit said:


> As I understand it Barnier has offered tapering access to UK fishing grounds, tapering to no access in perhaps 15 years time. Seems quite positive to me.


These would be the UK fg which will be largely controlled by foreigners anyway


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2020)

> Perhaps it reflects more on the government’s poor communication throughout this process, and on the utter confusion across the business and logistics sector as a result. The government has known all along that this situation was inevitable, but admitting this – and communicating the necessary instructions to allow the country to prepare – would have meant admitting that Brexit was not going to be as promised. The government may still yet blame the EU, or business, or both for confusion but it is becoming clearer by the day that the failure to act decisively lays with the government.











						Brexit: prepare for the worst, hope for the best
					

Another day, another parliamentary select committee hearing just how unprepared we are for Brexit. On Monday, it was the turn of the Lords EU goods subcommittee to hear evidence from industry experts. This is the same committee that last week heard industry experts express concerns that the...




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2020)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


>




That looks overly long


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> That looks overly long



Init. Goes right past several other perfectly good French ports.


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> That looks overly long


Half the Irish Sea & the whole channel; what could possibly go wrong in a Force 10 South Westerly gale?
A real vomit comet.


----------



## DownwardDog (Nov 29, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Init. Goes right past several other perfectly good French ports.



Dunkerque's got the road links for getting to the rest of Europe. You're straight on the A16/E40 and into Belgium within 10 minutes. Germany or the Netherlands in a couple of hours.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Nov 29, 2020)

DownwardDog said:


> Dunkerque's got the road links for getting to the rest of Europe. You're straight on the A16/E40 and into Belgium within 10 minutes. Germany or the Netherlands in a couple of hours.



On the ferry for an extra 6 though


----------



## two sheds (Nov 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Half the Irish Sea & the whole channel; what could possibly go wrong in a Force 10 South Westerly gale?
> A real vomit comet.



Particularly where the currents meet around the Scilly Isles


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 29, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> On the ferry for an extra 6 though


Yes but you would lose the drive through the UK plus no less than 3 passes through customs


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Yes but you would lose the drive through the UK plus no less than 3 passes through customs


I think the question was about the costs/benefits of using, say Cherbourg, to shorten the ferry crossing/lengthen the driving through France vrs using Dunquerque/Zeebruge longer ferry/shorter drive to get to the 'heart of Europe'.


----------



## Roadkill (Nov 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I think the question was about the costs/benefits of using, say Cherbourg, to shorten the ferry crossing/lengthen the driving through France vrs using Dunquerque/Zeebruge longer ferry/shorter drive to get to the 'heart of Europe'.



I think it's just a matter of Dunkerque being better connected by road, perhaps coupled with the fact that this route will be taking traffic that currently goes Calais-Dover then across Britain to Fishguard or Pembroke Dock.  Bad news for them, potentially.


----------



## Dogsauce (Nov 29, 2020)

Some hauliers just drop the trailers on the ship then have another unit pick-up at the other end, saves paying a driver for part of the route. Also will likely run overnight so can be partly covered by a rest break.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 29, 2020)

gosub said:


> At least the added paperwork is creating jobs.....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's not a shortage of UK trained staff at all but simply a move to maximise profits.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's not a shortage of UK trained staff at all but simply a move to maximise profits.


Why would anyone be surprised by this? These are essentially unskilled clerical jobs where the person would have to be trained from scratch to do it anyway.  There is no existing knowledge in this country that would  be lost by doing these jobs overseas from day 1. Only those roles that have to be in this country will be. Sadly that is now the world we live in.
Ironically within my own line of work I have noticed a tendency to start bringing jobs back from India since the demand for Indian engineers and programmers has resulted in their pay rising sharply and they are starting to price themselves out of a job.


----------



## TopCat (Nov 29, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Why would anyone be surprised by this? These are essentially unskilled clerical jobs where the person would have to be trained from scratch to do it anyway.  There is no existing knowledge in this country that would  be lost by doing these jobs overseas from day 1. Only those roles that have to be in this country will be. Sadly that is now the world we live in.
> Ironically within my own line of work I have noticed a tendency to start bringing jobs back from India since the demand for Indian engineers and programmers has resulted in their pay rising sharply and they are starting to price themselves out of a job.


Yay for globalisation yes?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> A tapered no access to fractions of zero. We don't have the stocks to sustain the Brexit fantasies of cod piled up as tall as a man on Grimsby quay.


One stack of cod beside the diminutive chancellor


----------



## gosub (Nov 29, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Why would anyone be surprised by this? These are essentially unskilled clerical jobs where the person would have to be trained from scratch to do it anyway.  There is no existing knowledge in this country that would  be lost by doing these jobs overseas from day 1. Only those roles that have to be in this country will be. Sadly that is now the world we live in.
> Ironically within my own line of work I have noticed a tendency to start bringing jobs back from India since the demand for Indian engineers and programmers has resulted in their pay rising sharply and they are starting to price themselves out of a job.


Wrong thread


----------



## brogdale (Nov 29, 2020)

Anyone else reaching the view that people aren't panicking enough about what lies beyond midnight on 31/12?

#RatsAndRainwater


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Anyone else reaching the view that people aren't panicking enough about what lies beyond midnight on 31/12?
> 
> #RatsAndRainwater


The country's supplies of panic ran out a week ago


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 29, 2020)

gosub said:


> Wrong thread





TopCat said:


> Yay for globalisation yes?


Definite Nay for globalisation for a great many people both here and overseas but it's a real thing that isn't going away.
The ultimate irony being that many European countries have the strictest employment protection laws in the world, avoiding such things spreading to the UK was one of the appeals of Brexit for many of its backers.


----------



## teqniq (Nov 29, 2020)

She woke up and smelt the coffee a litte too late I fear:


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2020)

Not 'trade' but gotta feel bad for those overseas second home owners


----------



## gosub (Nov 29, 2020)

teqniq said:


> She woke up and smelt the coffee a litte too late I fear:





As we actually left 31/1/2020. I'm not sure where you are going with the 'a little late I fear' though thats clearly a pre Covid recording.  The whole point of the transitional deadline of 31/12/20 was so people and businesses could adapt so the change was as seamless as possible.  Yet here we are with a month to go and our political 'elites' arguing over the precise detail of the change.   That's the coffee.  At just about every turn over the last 4 years this has been badly handled


----------



## Flavour (Nov 29, 2020)

miss direct said:


> Uk
> (you can't get that stuff in Turkey unless you pay $$$$$$$$$ and travel half way across the country.)



Off topic but whereabouts in Turkey are you? I happen to know of some fantastic Turkish cheese makers to whom the process for making gruyere was introduced by the Swiss a century ago and they continue to make it.


----------



## Chz (Nov 29, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I think it's just a matter of Dunkerque being better connected by road, perhaps coupled with the fact that this route will be taking traffic that currently goes Calais-Dover then across Britain to Fishguard or Pembroke Dock.  Bad news for them, potentially.


My (French) in-laws have their summer home out near Cherbourg. There is no way the road infrastructure of the Cotentin could take it, and the link from Cherbourg to Le Havre is frequently at a stand-still as it is. You _could _argue for Le Havre over Dunkerque, but I think it's mainly geared for shipping things by barge up the Seine and doesn't really have the infrastructure either.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Not 'trade' but gotta feel bad for those overseas second home owners
> 
> View attachment 240952



second home owners is one thing

ive got a friend whose moved out to Spain 4 years ago, rents and works, spends 11 months there - but still has only british citizenship etc
she may have sorted out her status ive no idea, but i imagine there are going to be others who get caught out in this kind of ruling


----------



## miss direct (Nov 29, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Off topic but whereabouts in Turkey are you? I happen to know of some fantastic Turkish cheese makers to whom the process for making gruyere was introduced by the Swiss a century ago and they continue to make it.


I'm not there anymore, but if you have good cheese contacts, I'll pass them on. The Brits in Istanbul are desperate for cheesey cheese.


----------



## Badgers (Nov 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> second home owners is one thing
> 
> ive got a friend whose moved out to Spain 4 years ago, rents and works, spends 11 months there - but still has only british citizenship etc
> she may have sorted out her status ive no idea, but i imagine there are going to be others who get caught out in this kind of ruling


Yeah. Sorry to be flippant about it. Same as Covid-19, there are people being overlooked. I used to work in Spain but stayed in a serviced apartment 3-4 months of the year. Guess I had no property in my name so would likely have been okay but who knows? 

FWIW I am actually working with customs (HMRC/IOE) on Brexit but focused on Northern Ireland rather than the EU so a bit out of the loop about that side. Tempting to leak a bit of the behind the scenes mess but best not as I need to keep the job atm


----------



## Maltin (Nov 29, 2020)

gosub said:


> As we actually left 31/1/2020. I'm not sure where you are going with the 'a little late I fear' though thats clearly a pre Covid recording.  The whole point of the transitional deadline of 31/12/20 was so people and businesses could adapt so the change was as seamless as possible.  Yet here we are with a month to go and our political 'elites' arguing over the precise detail of the change.   That's the coffee.  At just about every turn over the last 4 years this has been badly handled


Oven ready...


----------



## gosub (Nov 29, 2020)

Maltin said:


> Oven ready...



shame it lacks the necessary EHC that ensured that only the finest cuts of horse meat ends up in lasagne


----------



## 2hats (Nov 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



"Routing around the problem."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 29, 2020)

the celtic ferry routes are well established with brittany ferries , but the dunkirk one is DFDS- fits well for northern europe and onward. DFDS chuck in a meal and drink for commercials and a longer route can work with drivers break schedule demands  - why face brit formalities and piss stinking laybys when you can have a kip.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Nov 29, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Yeah. Sorry to be flippant about it. Same as Covid-19, there are people being overlooked. I used to work in Spain but stayed in a serviced apartment 3-4 months of the year. Guess I had no property in my name so would likely have been okay but who knows?
> 
> FWIW I am actually working with customs (HMRC/IOE) on Brexit but focused on Northern Ireland rather than the EU so a bit out of the loop about that side. *Tempting to leak a bit of the behind the scenes mess but best not as I need to keep the job atm*


in your own time pretty please


----------



## teuchter (Nov 30, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> the celtic ferry routes are well established with brittany ferries , but the dunkirk one is DFDS- fits well for northern europe and onward. DFDS chuck in a meal and drink for commercials and a longer route can work with drivers break schedule demands  - why face brit formalities and piss stinking laybys when you can have a kip.


24hrs so a rather long break. But surely makes more sense just to put the trailers on and have another driver at the other end. 
For me it kind of raises the question of why it wasn't already a route. It seems kind of wasteful to have a bunch of individual drivers driving across the UK and faffing with two ferry crossings when you can just put everything on a boat for the whole journey. In general, transport by water is more economical.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 30, 2020)

teuchter said:


> 24hrs so a rather long break. But surely makes more sense just to put the trailers on and have another driver at the other end.
> For me it kind of raises the question of why it wasn't already a route. It seems kind of wasteful to have a bunch of individual drivers driving across the UK and faffing with two ferry crossings when you can just put everything on a boat for the whole journey. In general, transport by water is more economical.


i look forward to the day when you're made people's commissar for water transport


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 30, 2020)

teuchter said:


> 24hrs so a rather long break. But surely makes more sense just to put the trailers on and have another driver at the other end.
> For me it kind of raises the question of why it wasn't already a route. It seems kind of wasteful to have a bunch of individual drivers driving across the UK and faffing with two ferry crossings when you can just put everything on a boat for the whole journey. In general, transport by water is more economical.


  Brittany ferries was a by product an ersatz Breton nationalist kinda vibe and links with Ireland and the SW played a  role in the setup. The channel routes were sewn up by existing ferry operations and were at capacity. There was no need for a long run. DFDS are operating the new run as freight only to exploit the hassle of passage through a non EU country.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 30, 2020)

Also unaccompanied trailers face delays in embarkation and dumping at the other end as they need tractor units to run them to the various holding areas. I think cos if this, fees for stand alone trailer / reefers etc are higher that accompanied ones.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 30, 2020)

/dull logistics


----------



## teuchter (Nov 30, 2020)

DFDS have said they intend to continue the route regardless of whether border delays settle down after the initial period. They've obviously decided it's commercially viable and it looks to me like the Brexit thing might have been more of a 'tipping point' than a sole determinant. It seems plausible to me that it's one of those things that might stack up either way, and hasn't happened before now due to intertia rather than anything else.


----------



## gentlegreen (Nov 30, 2020)

.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Nov 30, 2020)

It’s always due to profit

rosslare will also be the recipient of EU grants And support I wager but not aware of the detail


----------



## Raheem (Nov 30, 2020)

ska invita said:


> second home owners is one thing
> 
> ive got a friend whose moved out to Spain 4 years ago, rents and works, spends 11 months there - but still has only british citizenship etc
> she may have sorted out her status ive no idea, but i imagine there are going to be others who get caught out in this kind of ruling


Think the three months will not apply for workers (provided they are able to keep their jobs).


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

EU will not fall into Brexit 'negotiating trap', UK told
					

Irish foreign minister also calls for avoidance of blame game as ‘truth of Brexit’ becomes clear




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

"There can be no agreement unless there is one that gives sustainable and wide-ranging access to British waters … "

Why the fuck would the UK agree to that?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

Boris Johnson will get a deal: but it will be a betrayal of the Brexiters | Polly Toynbee
					

This is the moment when he’ll have to accept that no-deal is a disaster – and break all those fairy-dust promises, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com
				




Polly lays down again her vision.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 1, 2020)

I suspect she may be right, and that Boris will indeed sign something. I mean, what are they seriously banking on if not? That No Deal will be such a relative economic disaster for the EU27 that they'll come crawling back to the negotiating table with big fat promises to both a) stop fishing and b) continue buying fish from the UK?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Boris Johnson will get a deal: but it will be a betrayal of the Brexiters | Polly Toynbee
> 
> 
> This is the moment when he’ll have to accept that no-deal is a disaster – and break all those fairy-dust promises, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee
> ...



Based on Pollys track record we’ll be taking over France and rolling out sterling as the defacto currency of the US by January 2nd


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 1, 2020)

Is there a "quora" for a bill to pass if hundreds defy the whip and abstain ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Is there a "quora" for a bill to pass if hundreds defy the whip and abstain ?



Does there need to be a quorum im the HoC, or just a majority of those who show up?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 1, 2020)

So Labour MPs are being whipped to vote FOR the bill - rather than (presumably) abstain  ? - given that the bill being voted *down *would mean "no deal"

What about the Tories ? Do they have the option of voting "NO" in order to force no deal ?

Please excuse my ignorance of such matters ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 1, 2020)

teuchter said:


> DFDS have said they intend to continue the route regardless of whether border delays settle down after the initial period. They've obviously decided it's commercially viable and it looks to me like the Brexit thing might have been more of a 'tipping point' than a sole determinant. It seems plausible to me that it's one of those things that might stack up either way, and hasn't happened before now due to intertia rather than anything else.



Think of how many trucks will be removed from the UK's road, the M4, M25, M20/26 have a stream of Irish trucks trundling along, paying nothing towards this infrastructure, in most cases not even stopping to buy a Yorkie. And the emissions savings of shipping them to Dunkirk will be massive too. A Brexit success story.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 1, 2020)

Like whaling in Japan, fishing is a minor part of the big picture but massively symbolic in the EU. I believe the Johnson administration will cave on this.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Like whaling in Japan, fishing is a minor part of the big picture but massively symbolic in the EU. I believe the Johnson administration will cave on this.



Its also massively symbolic here so I assume noones going to blink and we're fucked.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2020)

Just cannot conceive trying to explain to someone a few years ago we're leaving the EU and we've not actually sorted out what happens afterwards with a month to go. 

I don't particularly want to leave the EU but I could accept it if it wasn't all so fucking incompetently arranged and clearly rushed through with no actual objective at the end of it.


----------



## andysays (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> EU will not fall into Brexit 'negotiating trap', UK told
> 
> 
> Irish foreign minister also calls for avoidance of blame game as ‘truth of Brexit’ becomes clear
> ...


Who says the Irish don't do irony...


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't particularly want to leave the EU but I could accept it if it wasn't all so fucking incompetently arranged and clearly rushed through with no actual objective at the end of it.


The objective is so the UK rich can avoid the EU tax laws


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

I personally think the EU will blink. Member states blaming each other soon.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Just cannot conceive trying to explain to someone a few years ago we're leaving the EU and we've not actually sorted out what happens afterwards with a month to go.
> 
> I don't particularly want to leave the EU but I could accept it if it wasn't all so fucking incompetently arranged and clearly rushed through with no actual objective at the end of it.


If only Labour had supported Brexit.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU will blink. Member states blaming each other soon.


They won't but our disgraced government will hail a world beating victory and EU bottling it while the rest of us strap in for the worst economic mess since the second world war


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 1, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Like whaling in Japan, fishing is a minor part of the big picture but massively symbolic in the EU. I believe the Johnson administration will cave on this.



I think they'll have to, unless they really are mad enough to plunge the country into chaos over an industry that in its entirety is worth less than one single car factory.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU will blink. Member states blaming each other soon.



The signs of that happening are precisely zero.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> The signs of that happening are precisely zero.


You can spell precisely, fabulous. 

Only a few days now. It will all be laid bare.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You can spell precisely, fabulous.
> 
> Only a few days now. It will all be laid bare.



I did wonder if you were being serious...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 1, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I did wonder if you were being serious...


I am. I think the EU will blink.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.


but johnson will never know as his eyes are screwed tight shut and he's stuck fingers in his ears while shouting 'i can't hear you la la la'


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.


Whether they do or not one of the things that grates for me are those elements of continuity remain that just wish the worse. The EU negotiators  aren't  anti Tory and they wouldn't have welcomed a Labour Government negotiating Brexit either.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 1, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I think they'll have to, unless they really are mad enough to plunge the country into chaos over an industry that in its entirety is worth less than one single car factory.



You want the EU and their supertrawlers to come in and strip our fish stocks bare in all the waters round our coast? There are few enough fish left as it is. 

They are _our _fish stocks and _we_ should be the ones to strip them bare


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.



The Italian car industry and the German prosecco producers are riding to our rescue as we speak.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 1, 2020)

I would prefer it if everybody was able to leave the fish alone to be fish.
At least for something like five years for numbers to increase, but in an ideal world forever.
Costal communities would need help and support and subsidy, but then again when the fish run out altogether they're going to need that help then anyway.
There is no such thing as our fish, or their fish, the fish belong to themselves, the unlucky ones are killed by humans a lot of the time.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I would prefer it if everybody was able to leave the fish alone to be fish.
> At least for something like five years for numbers to increase, but in an ideal world forever.
> Costal communities would need help and support and subsidy, but then again when the fish run out altogether they're going to need that help then anyway.
> There is no such thing as our fish, or their fish, the fish belong to themselves, the unlucky ones are killed by humans a lot of the time.



I think this is worth looking at, at the moment the ocean is horrifically overfished and really needs a couple of years set aside to recover now and again. We'd all benefit from giving it a fallow year now and again where only very limited fishing took place.

It'd be fucking hard to implement and police but would be worth it.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

It is one month away and our disgraced government are trying to work out if a scotch egg is a substantial meal. 

The EU are quaking at the negotiating table


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> It is one month away and our disgraced government are trying to work out if a scotch egg is a substantial meal.
> 
> The EU are quaking at the negotiating table











						Does Brexit mean Breggxit for the humble scotch egg?
					

EU officials have announced that in the event of a no-deal Brexit, visitors from the UK will be banned from bringing animal-based products to the continent. Is it time to rethink the holiday picnic?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> It is one month away and our disgraced government are trying to work out if a scotch egg is a substantial meal.
> 
> The EU are quaking at the negotiating table


in the south atlantic industrial zone they will find out just how substantial a meal a scotch egg is when they have to make one go among five former people.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I would prefer it if everybody was able to leave the fish alone to be fish.
> At least for something like five years for numbers to increase, but in an ideal world forever.
> Costal communities would need help and support and subsidy, but then again when the fish run out altogether they're going to need that help then anyway.
> There is no such thing as our fish, or their fish, the fish belong to themselves, the unlucky ones are killed by humans a lot of the time.


however, no fish is killed by humans more than once


----------



## Supine (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.



Thing is they are playing a clever game. They have never imposed a deadline so they don't need to blink. Boris can run us over the cliff or negotiations will just continue.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 1, 2020)

Was just told by an Italian friend who is sorting out their status in the UK that if you are a British citizen living in the EU, if you don't come back to the UK by Spring 2022 after that date you will have to do so through the regular points-based, proven-income system. Doesn't sound right to me, would like to know for certain. Anyone know? Favelado?


----------



## Flavour (Dec 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Was just told by an Italian friend who is sorting out their status in the UK that if you are a British citizen living in the EU, if you don't come back to the UK by Spring 2022 after that date you will have to do so through the regular points-based, proven-income system. Doesn't sound right to me, would like to know for certain. Anyone know? Favelado?



That is absolute bullshit


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 1, 2020)

I did read something about it recently


----------



## Flavour (Dec 1, 2020)

Unless a British citizen voluntarily gives up their citizenship because they become a citizen of another country which doesn't allow dual-citizenship (e.g. Spain), then there is no reason why any British citizen would be asked to prove anything upon return to the UK as long as they have a valid passport. This is nonesense.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 1, 2020)

Badgers said:


> The objective is so the UK rich can avoid the EU tax laws



Which, considering the EU provides so many tax dodging opportunities already, is a fucking petty thing to cause all this fuss over.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 1, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Was just told by an Italian friend who is sorting out their status in the UK that if you are a British citizen living in the EU, if you don't come back to the UK by Spring 2022 after that date you will have to do so through the regular points-based, proven-income system. Doesn't sound right to me, would like to know for certain. Anyone know? Favelado?


That's a sort of semi-truth that's got confused, If you are a British citizen then absolutely you can come back, however if you are married to a citizen of another EU country then after that date your spouse will be subject to the same immigration laws as any non EU spouse ie the British partner must have an income of greater than £18600 rising by an extra £2400 for any children if they are not dual citizens


----------



## Raheem (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.


Absolutely. If there's one thing we can rely on, it's the audacious brilliance of our political leaders.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Which, considering the EU provides so many tax dodging opportunities already, is a fucking petty thing to cause all this fuss over.


Sounds fitting then


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 1, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> in the south atlantic industrial zone they will find out just how substantial a meal a scotch egg is when they have to make one go among five former people.



I don't think we'll be giving the likes of them eggs.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 1, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Absolutely. If there's one thing we can rely on, it's the audacious brilliance of our political leaders.


We're screwed aren't we?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> We're screwed aren't we?


Who is 'we' in this scenario? Do you want Johnson to be audaciously brilliant in achieving his aims? I don't.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> We're screwed aren't we?


100% fucked sorry to say


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 1, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I am. I think the EU will blink.


Why? I think they won't but am actually interested in the reasons you believe they might.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't think we'll be giving the likes of them eggs.


Not for very long, obviously


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> We're screwed aren't we?


And not in a good way


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> We're screwed aren't we?


it's the one world-beating thing johnson's done, managing to fuck the entire country without visiting most of it


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

Supine said:


> Thing is they are playing a clever game. They have never imposed a deadline so they don't need to blink. Boris can run us over the cliff or negotiations will just continue.


they're not playing a clever game. they're just not playing a really fucking stupid game, which sadly is the only game johnson has


----------



## Raheem (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> Why? I think they won't but am actually interested in the reasons you believe they might.


Given that the precise dividing lines aren't publicly known, it's probably not going to be possible to spot when one side or the other "blinks", whatever it means in the first place. But, given that the UK started negotiations with the objective of securing "exactly the same benefits" as EU membership, it's going to be a pretty significant exercise in self- delusion to celebrate some marginal gain in mackerel stocks as a hammer-blow against Brussels.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 1, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> That's a sort of semi-truth that's got confused, If you are a British citizen then absolutely you can come back, however if you are married to a citizen of another EU country then after that date your spouse will be subject to the same immigration laws as any non EU spouse ie the British partner must have an income of greater than £18600 rising by an extra £2400 for any children if they are not dual citizens


Tricky if your only income is the basic state pension.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 1, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


>



except of course our nearest neighbours aren't the french, as illustrated, but the irish.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 1, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> except of course our nearest neighbours aren't the french, as illustrated, but the irish.


It's actually the Scottish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 1, 2020)

Raheem said:


> It's actually the Scottish.


the scottish have the misfortune to be within the united kingdom. the republic of ireland has of course escaped the chains of the foul house of saxe-coburg-gotha


----------



## gosub (Dec 1, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Based on Pollys track record we’ll be taking over France and rolling out sterling as the defacto currency of the US by January 2nd



If it doesn't go Macron's way he's got a problem in the Presidental's,,whilst Boris's core  support are bunch of 'brace yoursellf Rodney's ", and with either a deal or no deal you most likely get  a situation involving boating shennigans as yet to come.  Coastal rather tidal Thames this time


----------



## Badgers (Dec 1, 2020)

Good times for sport ahead too 



> The Premier League have confirmed new post-Brexit transfer rules.
> 
> One of the major changes will mean Premier League teams including Everton and Liverpool cannot sign overseas players under the age of 18 once the United Kingdom officially leaves the European Union at the end of this year.
> 
> ...


----------



## Winot (Dec 1, 2020)

FT reporting that member states are indeed intervening...

... to warn Barnier against giving away too much.







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## brogdale (Dec 2, 2020)

Amidst the doom & gloom, there is at least 1 trade-related thing we can look forward to...






> Lawmakers in Taiwan threw pig intestines and punches at each other as a brawl broke out in parliament over a proposal to ease restrictions on pork imports from the United States.
> The fight broke out Friday when opposition Kuomintang (KMT) party members threw pig skin and intestines at their fellow lawmakers to stop Premier Su Tseng-chang of the ruling Democratic Progressive Party (DPP) from taking questions, according to the self-ruled island's state broadcaster, Central News Agency. Some members then briefly exchanged blows.


----------



## tommers (Dec 2, 2020)

Winot said:


> FT reporting that member states are indeed intervening...
> 
> ... to warn Barnier against giving away too much.
> 
> ...


The German car industry will be in touch soon I'm sure _checks date_


----------



## tommers (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Good times for sport ahead too


To be fair that sounds alright.


----------



## mwgdrwg (Dec 2, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Amidst the doom & gloom, there is at least 1 trade-related thing we can look forward to...
> 
> View attachment 241416



The UK will probably have an angry hashtag trending for a day or two before everyone forgets about it, #HormoneHam or something.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2020)

tommers said:


> To be fair that sounds alright.


agree...is that even anything to do with Brexit? Theres been talk of these kind of modest limits for years - must admit I've never checked to see if they get implemented. Judging by the make up of top teams Im guessing not


----------



## tommers (Dec 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> agree...is that even anything to do with Brexit? Theres been talk of these kind of modest limits for years - must admit I've never checked to see if they get implemented. Judging by the make up of top teams Im guessing not


Imagine it will change so that European players have to get a work permit, same as players from other places in the world do now. Points system.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> agree...is that even anything to do with Brexit? Theres been talk of these kind of modest limits for years - must admit I've never checked to see if they get implemented. Judging by the make up of top teams Im guessing not


If it was all European (and UK) clubs then yeah. What it means is big clubs in the EU can scout/buy young players and the UK can't. 

A lot more young (16 even) have made PL starts.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 2, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Absolutely. If there's one thing we can rely on, it's the audacious brilliance of our political leaders.


I can just imagine being in the trenches, ready to go over the top, with Sergeant Gove telling me to hold my nerve. The hun will blink!. We have them exactly where we want them.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2020)

According to the Times








						Border ‘catastrophe’ warning over lack of customs agents
					

Ministers were accused of presiding over a potential “catastrophe” yesterday as it emerged that not enough customs agents had been trained to handle a surge in




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				



Gove says there will be capacity from 1st Jan to process 158 million customs declarations a year, actual number required based on current trading levels is 250 million - a shortfall of 100 million. Woops


----------



## tommers (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> If it was all European (and UK) clubs then yeah. What it means is big clubs in the EU can scout/buy young players and the UK can't.
> 
> A lot more young (16 even) have made PL starts.



Oh, I thought it said that Liverpool and Everton couldn't buy young players.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2020)

tommers said:


> Oh, I thought it said that Liverpool and Everton couldn't buy young players.




It is hardly a big deal in the Brexit shitfest. I just smiled because a grumpy Brexit voter in my old office said it was nonsense this would happen. 

Anyway., back to the bigger fuck ups


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> According to the Times
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone get that without a paywall?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2020)

Good good


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 241428
> 
> Good good


Viscount ridley?


----------



## 2hats (Dec 2, 2020)

ska invita said:


> According to the Times
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is that 158 'million' derived from the same _mathematics_ used to calculate numbers of COVID-19 tests?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

2hats said:


> Is that 158 'million' derived from the same _mathematics_ used to calculate numbers of COVID-19 tests?


Yes they wrote up some numbers on the whiteboard, blindfolded gove and he pinned a sticker nearest 158m


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Good times for sport ahead too


Clubs forced to develop UK players.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2020)

Winot said:


> FT reporting that member states are indeed intervening...
> 
> ... to warn Barnier against giving away too much.
> 
> ...


More like turning on each other. Macron's statement will have been cold sick in Merkel's mouth.


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Clubs forced to develop UK players.


Maybe they'll have outsource football to Romania and India as well, because of a lack of adequately trained British staff


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Clubs forced to develop UK players.


Lest we forget the entire Celtic team who won the European cup in 67 came from within 30 miles of parkhead


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Lest we forget the entire Celtic team who won the European cup in 67 came from within 30 miles of parkhead


Never forget. Local players often have a connection to the club that goes beyond mere money.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2020)

2hats said:


> Is that 158 'million' derived from the same _mathematics_ used to calculate numbers of COVID-19 tests?


It is pretty vague... Supposedly Gove couldn't give a figure but he said it was four times what it was the other day.. The Times did the sum to get to 150 mil


----------



## Lurdan (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Anyone get that without a paywall?


Here


----------



## gosub (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 241428
> 
> Good good





Pickman's model said:


> Viscount ridley?


The name that screamed out at me was Matthew Elliott (political strategist) - Wikipedia


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

gosub said:


> The name that screamed out at me was Matthew Elliott (political strategist) - Wikipedia


A name that deafened a thousand ears


----------



## Badgers (Dec 2, 2020)

Lurdan said:


> Here


Cheers for that


----------



## gosub (Dec 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> A name that deafened a thousand ears



read his wiki looks to be painting a Russian angle, not dismissing that, but think his undertow is more carbon based  energy --..Koch Brothers and Gazprom?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

gosub said:


> read his wiki looks to be painting a Russian angle, not dismissing that, but think his undertow is more carbon based  energy --..Koch Brothers and Gazprom?


Gazprom Russian


----------



## gosub (Dec 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Gazprom Russian


Koch Brothers were very much not..


----------



## gosub (Dec 2, 2020)

Badgers said:


> 100% fucked sorry to say


'Globally-significant' lithium reserves found in Cornwall could bring 'prosperity' to the region (inews.co.uk) 
UK tech exports set to surge to more than £31bn post-pandemic - Business Live (business-live.co.uk) 

its not all doom and gloom


----------



## TopCat (Dec 2, 2020)

Macron. "The preservation of the activities of our fishermen in British waters is an essential condition". 

Fucking arse.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 2, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Macron. "The preservation of the activities of our fishermen in British waters is an essential condition".
> 
> Fucking arse.


Did you expect something different? Doesn't matter who the French president is, they're always likely to be heard defending their fishermen against threats to their livelihoods.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did you expect something different? Doesn't matter who the French president is, they're always likely to be heard defending their fishermen against threats to their livelihoods.


that doesn't in any way rebut or really argue against TopCat's view that the president of france is a fucking arse.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 2, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Did you expect something different? Doesn't matter who the French president is, they're always likely to be heard defending their fishermen against threats to their livelihoods.


Especially one at the sharp end of the yellow vests


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 2, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> that doesn't in any way rebut or really argue against TopCat's view that the president of france is a fucking arse.


TBF we Brits are in no position to criticise other countries poor choices when it comes to elected officials


----------



## Raheem (Dec 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> TBF we Brits are in no position to criticise other countries poor choices when it comes to elected officials


Most Brits didn't choose the ones they've got.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> TBF we Brits are in no position to criticise other countries poor choices when it comes to elected officials


calling the french president a fucking arse is high praise indeed considering the more venomous terms we would direct at our own miserable politicians


----------



## Flavour (Dec 2, 2020)

Is macron saying that to win popularity with coastal communities or does he actually like really give a shit


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 2, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Is macron saying that to win popularity with coastal communities or does he actually like really give a shit


That's a meaningless question, isn't it? Or at least the wrong question. He's a politician.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 2, 2020)

What I mean is: who do you think the intended audience for that soundbite is? Cos I'm not sure it's the British public


----------



## andysays (Dec 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> TBF we Brits are in no position to criticise other countries poor choices when it comes to elected officials


I think we're allowed to take an internationalist perspective here and criticise any country's head of state and/or government if we think they're an arse, regardless of the arse factor of our own (which pretty much goes without saying).


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 2, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU will blink. Member states blaming each other soon.




The EU blinked.









						Brexit: UK has lowered demands on fish catches, says EU
					

Significant gap remains as two sides enter crucial 48 hours of talks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Crispy (Dec 2, 2020)

blunk


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 2, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The EU blinked.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm waiting for the Daily Fail headline accusing BoZo of being a traitor and a sellout


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 2, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> I'm waiting for the Daily Fail headline accusing BoZo of being a traitor and a sellout


He'll be selling out the interest groups he bribed with promises one by one.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 2, 2020)

Somewhat both on and off topic but the government has issued guidance ,  in the event that the UK becomes an unlisted country, for those that want to take ferrets and other pets on holiday in the EU .


----------



## TopCat (Dec 3, 2020)

England and Wales to ban live animal exports in European first
					

Environment secretary hails ‘Brexit success’ for animal welfare, but poultry to be excluded and Northern Ireland exempted




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

TopCat said:


> England and Wales to ban live animal exports in European first
> 
> 
> Environment secretary hails ‘Brexit success’ for animal welfare, but poultry to be excluded and Northern Ireland exempted
> ...


Whats this got to do with Brexit?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Whats this got to do with Brexit?


Nothing. Same as the vaccine.


----------



## andysays (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Whats this got to do with Brexit?


According to DEFRA and as mentioned in the article, EU rules meant live exports couldn't be prohibited.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Nothing. Same as the vaccine.


It has some to do with it. If animals are being exported live then you don't want  them sat in a Kent layby for several hours whilst the i's are dotted and the t's are being crossed on the paperwork. Feeding and watering them will be a logistics nightmare.
If it's just sides of beef in the back of the refridgerated truck the driver will just have to start the engine occasionally.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> It has some to do with it. If animals are being exported live then you don't want  them sat in a Kent layby for several hours whilst the i's are dotted and the t's are being crossed on the paperwork. Feeding and watering them will be a logistics nightmare.
> If it's just sides of beef in the back of the refridgerated truck the driver will just have to start the engine occasionally.


this did cross my mind about the sudden rule change - just this week it was being reported that live animals were going to be stuck in these potentially enormous queues in Kent - not good PR for the government. Cynic in me thinks they're getting in there early to squash the bad optics


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

andysays said:


> According to DEFRA and as mentioned in the article, EU rules meant live exports couldn't be prohibited.


hmm...i wonder what would've happened if the UK had ever made any attempt to ban it in the past. Somehow I expect they could've done so if they really wanted.


----------



## andysays (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> hmm...i wonder what would've happened if the UK had ever made any attempt to ban it in the past. Somehow I expect they could've done so if they really wanted.


According to the BBC's current report on this story, when Thanet District Council tried to bring in a temporary suspension of live exports in 2012, the High Court ruled this was in breach of EU rules, after 3 Dutch companies brought a case.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 3, 2020)

andysays said:


> According to the BBC's current report on this story, when Thanet District Council tried to bring in a temporary suspension of live exports in 2012, the High Court ruled this was in breach of EU rules.



Its usually the way, we got very good at not doing things and blaming the EU for it. "Oh you can't buy back the trains, EU won't allow it" "oh you can't put lb's and oz's on your signs, EU won't allow it" "oh the bananas have to be this bendy, EU rules" but it usually turns out it would have been absolutely fine to have done it. 

Looking at Europe itself you have France and Germany who play by the rules but do quietly overlook some of them.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

andysays said:


> According to the BBC's current report on this story, when Thanet District Council tried to bring in a temporary suspension of live exports in 2012, the High Court ruled this was in breach of EU rules, after 3 Dutch companies brought a case.


thanks

ETA:
i still reckon if the government wanted to ban, as opposed to Thanet Council, it couldve happened


----------



## ska invita (Dec 3, 2020)

3 days of solid rain forecast here in the south...we're about find out if its a flood plane or not


----------



## 2hats (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> 3 days of solid rain forecast here in the south...we're about find out if its a flood plane or not


A flood plane earlier...


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> 3 days of solid rain forecast here in the south...we're about find out if its a flood plane or not
> View attachment 241629



You couldn't expect them to plan for this possibility, it's not like it rains a lot in the UK, oh wait.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 3, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You couldn't expect them to plan for this possibility, it's not like it rains a lot in the UK, oh wait.


Flat land in Kent with no buildings on it? Perfect!! Why didn't anyone think to use it before? The idiots.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 3, 2020)

ska invita said:


> 3 days of solid rain forecast here in the south...we're about find out if its a flood plane or not
> View attachment 241629



It's certainly being built on the flood plain of the East Stour, but according to the official UK.Gov flood risk maps, the site is actually beyond the flood risk area. I suspect the building problems relate to the low infiltration rates of the clay soils of the Holmesdale valley and high water table.

On a lighter note...someone on twitter suggested that the _Farage garage _may actually be a _SubMarine le Pen_?


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 3, 2020)

Those tweets suggest there's a lot of clever drainage involved  - let's hope they get it right for the sake of the surrounding area.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 3, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Those tweets suggest there's a lot of clever drainage involved  - let's hope they get it right for the sake of the surrounding area.


I expect Gavin Williamson has suggested pumping the abstracted drainage water to Belgium.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 3, 2020)

BBC towing the line that the deal is just about to happen.  If it’s not announced by Monday it’s surely going to all end in tears.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I expect Gavin Williamson has suggested pumping the abstracted drainage water to Belgium.



Either that or it'll magically evaporate because it's British water and much better than nasty foreign water.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 3, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Either that or it'll magically evaporate because it's British water and much better than nasty foreign water.


I think even Williamson's magical thinking would struggle to convince any water to evaporate out there today!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> BBC towing the line that the deal is just about to happen.  If it’s not announced by Monday it’s surely going to all end in tears.


it is all going to end in tears


----------



## brogdale (Dec 3, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> it is all going to end in tears


tears upon tiers


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2020)

brogdale said:


> tears upon tiers


blood sweat and tiers


----------



## maomao (Dec 3, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You couldn't expect them to plan for this possibility, it's not like it rains a lot in the UK, oh wait.


The South-East of England is semi-arid. Relatively speaking and despite a reputation for changeability it does not rain a lot in Kent.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Dec 3, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



Well if there is no deal then who would argue the bill stays as it is?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2020)

__





						Four in 10 UK food firms to cut supplies to Northern Ireland – poll | Brexit | The Guardian
					

<strong>Exclusive:</strong> Brexit survey by Food and Drink Federation confirms fears of retailers and DUP<br>




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> Up until now trade between Great Britain and Northern Ireland has been seamless, but customs, regulatory and health measures are being put in place from 1 January as part of the Brexit Northern Ireland protocol agreed by Boris Johnson last year.
> Goudie said one of the biggest problems was that “there is a real lack of clarity and detail on what actually needs to be done to get products in Northern Ireland, and how the processes of the borders will actually work in practice”, both from the UK and the EU.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> The South-East of England is semi-arid. Relatively speaking and despite a reputation for changeability it does not rain a lot in Kent.




Dungeness is a desert, and Romney Marsh has very low rainfall, but Dover and Folkestone have significant rainfall. I think Ashford is on the high high side of normal.



ETA

I’ve just just checked that, and it’s not right.

Dover, Folkestone, Ashford get about half the average England rainfall, but more than most of Kent. But less than Brighton. More than London. Less than Southend, about the same as Heathrow.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 3, 2020)

SheilaNaGig said:


> Dungeness is a desert, and Romney Marsh has very low rainfall, but Dover and Folkestone have significant rainfall. I think Ashford is on the high high side of normal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Could you summarise all that please?


----------



## Supine (Dec 3, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Could you summarise all that please?



Variable weather


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 3, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Could you summarise all that please?




I’ve said all that I’m going to say, I’ve made myself quite clear, and I have no intention to revisit the matter.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 3, 2020)

Supine said:


> Variable weather




I’m afraid I can’t be held responsible for other people’s misunderstandings.


----------



## gosub (Dec 3, 2020)

Reuters | Breaking International News & Views
					

Find latest news from every corner of the globe at Reuters.com, your online source for breaking international news coverage.




					uk.reuters.com


----------



## two sheds (Dec 3, 2020)

maomao said:


> The South-East of England is semi-arid. Relatively speaking and despite a reputation for changeability it does not rain a lot in Kent.



Because we get all the fucking stuff in Cornwall


----------



## teuchter (Dec 3, 2020)

Cornwall doesn't even get that much rain - it's in the UK's mediocre zone.

Before I moved to London I'd always lived in the blue regions.

So I routinely have a laugh when people go on about how much it rains in London or the south east.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 3, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Because we get all the fucking stuff in Cornwall


And Devon. I was just reading in the local paper about border patrols between Cornwall and Devon because of the Covid rules, but nothing stops the weather.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 3, 2020)

Apart from Exeter - it rains all over Dartmoor so Exeter doesn't get it.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 241686
> 
> Cornwall doesn't even get that much rain - it's in the UK's mediocre zone.
> 
> ...




That looks like quite a lot of shit.

Why is it so brown?





...
That’s  great map though
Makes sense.
Water loaded wind /air coming in from the Atlantic and dropping its load as it crosses the land.
Stand to reason.



Pelion


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Cornwall doesn't even get that much rain - it's in the UK's mediocre zone.
> 
> Before I moved to London I'd always lived in the blue regions.
> 
> So I routinely have a laugh when people go on about how much it rains in London or the south east.



I fucked it by moving from London back to the southwest, I can go weeks here without being able to go out on the nice bike.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 241686
> 
> Cornwall doesn't even get that much rain - it's in the UK's mediocre zone.
> 
> ...



Not even that much rain??? Mediocre??? I'm going to ask you outside friend.  

Look at that blue compared to the nasty brown (thank you Sheila) stuff over the east. That's going to be desert in a few years you mark my words.

I did speak to someone who said that Cornwall doesn't rain much more of the time than further east, it's just that it rains heavier when it does rain.


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 4, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I fucked it by moving from London back to the southwest, I can go weeks here without being able to go out on the nice bike.




I once went on holiday to the SW

Rain etc


----------



## kabbes (Dec 4, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I did speak to someone who said that Cornwall doesn't rain much more of the time than further east, it's just that it rains heavier when it does rain.


That’s the bit I’m interested in — hours of rain per day.  Number of days that it rains is a half-decent proxy but actually I don’t even much care if it rains every day if there are a few nice hours to go out in.  It’s a lot harder to find that kind of data though — much easier to just measure total rainfall.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 4, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Apart from Exeter - it rains all over Dartmoor so Exeter doesn't get it.


But folk are strange on that side of the moor.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

Boris Johnson must give up on fishing: it's the only way to get a Brexit deal | Simon Jenkins
					

A breakdown in EU talks would cause more chaos than Britain can stand. He should plan to compensate the industry instead, says Guardian columnist Simon Jenkins




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 241686
> 
> Cornwall doesn't even get that much rain - it's in the UK's mediocre zone.
> 
> ...


The most mediocre But only the median. Not the mean or the mode.. And only for the period of the map. Have you something up to date?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not even that much rain??? Mediocre??? I'm going to ask you outside friend.


 Can I suggest Fort William? Bring waterproofs.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 4, 2020)

Funny how in the space of 24 hours the front-page stories on Bbc/graun went from "a deal is like, super close to being made, finally" to "prospect of a deal receding" -- i suspect this is partly because Tories are now more interested in laying the groundwork of the narrative that all the chaos which will ensue in January is actually the EU's fault for backing away from the oven-ready deal that BJ had pen in hand ready to sign


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The most mediocre But only the median. Not the mean or the mode.. And only for the period of the map. Have you something up to date?


Have you anything useful to say?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 4, 2020)

SheilaNaGig said:


> That looks like quite a lot of shit.
> 
> Why is it so brown?
> 
> ...


Also the relief of the Western parts of Great Britain contributes to wringing the moisture out of the prevailing winds coming off the Atlantic. The mountains & hills forcing the humid air aloft where it cools, condensing the vaporous load forming cloud that precipitates onto the land.

The 'rain shadow' to the East results from this relief rainfall in the West and the drying/warming of the Föhn effect winds blowing down from the higher land.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Have you anything useful to say?


Much more than you on the basis of the obsolete information you've deigned to share with us


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The 'rain shadow' to the East results from this relief rainfall in the West and the drying/warming of the Föhn effect winds blowing down from the higher land.



The Fohn effect thing leads to certain locations in the very north of scotland holding various records for UK highest winter temperatures.... somewhat surprisingly.









						UK's new warmest December confirmed in Highlands
					

The data recorded last month at Achfary has been validated by meteorologists and showed a temperature of 18.7C.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> The Fohn effect thing leads to certain locations in the very north of scotland holding various records for UK highest winter temperatures.... somewhat surprisingly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Indeed.
All down to the release of the latent heat of condensation in the clouds that means the air comes down out of the mountains, not only drier, but also warmer than it went up in the first place!

Partly explains the surprisingly high latitude production of (arborio) rice in the Po valley, down (prevailing) wind from the Alps.

But...we digress.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 4, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Funny how in the space of 24 hours the front-page stories on Bbc/graun went from "a deal is like, super close to being made, finally" to "prospect of a deal receding" -- i suspect this is partly because Tories are now more interested in laying the groundwork of the narrative that all the chaos which will ensue in January is actually the EU's fault for backing away from the oven-ready deal that BJ had pen in hand ready to sign


IMO, it's to delay agreeing so that it can happen on the same day as the first Covid vaccinations, and the attention of the media will be accordingly divided.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

Fucks sake.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

Brexit: Johnson and Von der Leyen to take over with direct talks
					

UK PM and European commission president to speak on Saturday after negotiators fail to reach agreement




					www.theguardian.com
				



The Irish wont be happy now.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: Johnson and Von der Leyen to take over with direct talks
> 
> 
> UK PM and European commission president to speak on Saturday after negotiators fail to reach agreement
> ...


Eh?
The article does not mention the Republic of Ireland unless I missed it.
Places that have close geographic proximity to the UK like France, Belgium, Holland, and the Republic of Ireland are all likely to have an extra layer of perspective compared to places further away.
The Republic of Ireland is in the EU and has a land border with the UK and has very particular concerns.
The brexit vote was never about making the Irish happy, if anything they were not considered at all by brexit voters, or for some voters making difficulties for the Irish might have pleased them.
I can only hope that without a deal the 70% of electricity supplied from the European Union to the Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom is switched off on January 1st, until such time as the UK resolves the border problem it created.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Eh?
> The article does not mention the Republic of Ireland unless I missed it.
> Places that have close geographic proximity to the UK like France, Belgium, Holland, and the Republic of Ireland are all likely to have an extra layer of perspective compared to places further away.
> The Republic of Ireland is in the EU and has a land border with the UK and has very particular concerns.
> ...


You are a fruitcake.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are a fruitcake.


Well if you want to personalise it may I say you are a cunt.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

Brexit is a fucking right wing Tory farce and we're all going to suffer because of it. Fuck it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Eh?
> The article does not mention the Republic of Ireland unless I missed it.
> Places that have close geographic proximity to the UK like France, Belgium, Holland, and the Republic of Ireland are all likely to have an extra layer of perspective compared to places further away.
> The Republic of Ireland is in the EU and has a land border with the UK and has very particular concerns.
> ...


jesus mary and joseph  

you just get worse and worse

why do you think the article has to mention the irish for there to be conclusions drawn about their feelings from it? if you heard 'there's a tsunami heading towards cornwall' would you not think that people in kerry, cork, waterford and wexford (not to mention people in devon) might be concerned about it? does everything have to be spelled out for you? extra layers of perspective? you could do with one layer of perspective, it'd be a start


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexit is a fucking right wing Tory farce and we're all going to suffer because of it. Fuck it.


farces are supposed to be funny, see for example charley's aunt or man with two masters


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 4, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I can only hope that without a deal the 70% of electricity supplied from the European Union to the Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom is switched off on January 1st, until such time as the UK resolves the border problem it created.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 4, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> jesus mary and joseph
> 
> you just get worse and worse
> 
> why do you think the article has to mention the irish for there to be conclusions drawn about their feelings from it? if you heard 'there's a tsunami heading towards cornwall' would you not think that people in kerry, cork, waterford and wexford (not to mention people in devon) might be concerned about it? does everything have to be spelled out for you? extra layers of perspective? you could do with one layer of perspective, it'd be a start


Why am I not surprised the class control freak has weighed in?
Change your user name to 'everybodyshouldbethesameasme' why don't you?


----------



## Chz (Dec 4, 2020)

kabbes said:


> That’s the bit I’m interested in — hours of rain per day.  Number of days that it rains is a half-decent proxy but actually I don’t even much care if it rains every day if there are a few nice hours to go out in.  It’s a lot harder to find that kind of data though — much easier to just measure total rainfall.


I'm forever having to explain that to the family back home. Yes, London technically has less rainfall than Toronto. The difference is that most of Toronto's rainfall comes from serious storms that can be as short as an hour - it's not a drizzly place. Whereas London will get the same amount of precipitation spread over a week of drizzle.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2020)

I got caught in a rainstorm in New York one time - fuck me that was intense, never seen anything like it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Why am I not surprised the class control freak has weighed in?
> Change your user name to 'everybodyshouldbethesameasme' why don't you?


because i don't think everybody should be the same as me. in fact i haven't in any way suggested everyone should be the same as me.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

Chz said:


> I'm forever having to explain that to the family back home. Yes, London technically has less rainfall than Toronto. The difference is that most of Toronto's rainfall comes from serious storms that can be as short as an hour - it's not a drizzly place. Whereas London will get the same amount of precipitation spread over a week of drizzle.


London rarely has a week of drizzle.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 4, 2020)

I'm as guilty as any, I know...but maybe enough of the weather/climate stuff?

There are more appropriate threads.

This thread topic could get quite interesting over the next couple of weeks....


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> London rarely has a week of drizzle.


but we often get you dribbling all over threads.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 4, 2020)

I did say that fishing in Europe is a very different bag of political fishy things than it is in the U.K.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 4, 2020)

Time to put this agreement into plaice I reckon. Lots of risky herring-do from the brits but we will roe the day we failed to get a d-eel.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

Hope all you flag waving Brexiteers are feeling chuffed. 





> The UK should brace itself for months of food shortages from 1 January as strict European rules are enforced and the prospect of long delays at the customs border scare off truck drivers from even attempting to deliver goods across the Channel, experts on both sides of the channel have claimed.
> 
> According to the boss of Europe’s largest haulage trade body, the UK is looking at a “nightmare scenario” that will lead to “weeks, if not months” of food shortages after the Brexit transition period comes to an end in just four weeks.











						UK should brace itself for months of food shortages from 1 January, delivery experts say
					

According to the boss of Europe’s largest haulage trade body, the UK is looking at a 'nightmare scenario' that will lead to food shortages




					inews.co.uk


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexit is a fucking right wing Tory farce and we're all going to suffer because of it. Fuck it.


I depend on quite a few medications and am genuinely worried about a medication shortage. I'm also dependent on stoma and fistula supplies. Really not looking forward to brexit at all.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Brexit is a fucking right wing Tory farce and we're all going to suffer because of it. Fuck it.



If only the majority had voted to endorse Cameron and Osborne 's leadership instead.  instead.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If only the majority had voted to endorse Cameron and Osborne's leadership instead.



It’s the biggest shit sandwich we’ve had to vote for in a while.

I was firmly remain until the day and I saw the votes and I realised it was a choice between Farage and his lot or Cameron. I stuck with remain but I wasn’t happy about it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 4, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> It’s the biggest shit sandwich we’ve had to vote for in a while.
> 
> I was firmly remain until the day and I saw the votes and I realised it was a choice between Farage and his lot or Cameron. I stuck with remain but I wasn’t happy about it.




Whichever way you went you were fucked. Divide and rule is all our 'betters' know.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 4, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Whichever way you went you were fucked. Divide and rule is all our 'betters' know.



Cameron got cocky, the key to any referendum is you know how it’s going to go. It’s why he was ok with AV and even Scots (that was squeaky bum time though).

We’ve had 40 years of the press and Westminster blaming the Eu for basically everything the governments cocked up so it was hard to see how you’d get a decisive win. Status quo won for me but lot of anger out there and still is. I also didn’t want to be trapped here with the conservatives having no opposition for next decade or more and oh boy


----------



## Flavour (Dec 4, 2020)

The remain/leave stuff is over and done with, let's not retread this nutrition-poor ground, the soil is barely fertile. 

Instead, let's focus on the great clash of the intellectual titans shaping the future of the UK's relationship with Europe: Boris Johnson vs Michel Barnier


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Hope all you flag waving Brexiteers are feeling chuffed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Given yet another bit of hyperbolic bullshit from you, specifically the flag waving dig, I think you will be the only poster I refer to as a remoaner.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Given yet another bit of hyperbolic bullshit from you, specifically the flag waving dig, I think you will be the only poster I refer to as a remoaner.


Oh, are you self identifying as a ' flag waving Brexiteer' then?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Oh, are you self identifying as a ' flag waving Brexiteer' then?


You constantly try and paint all who voted leave as a homogenous blob, made of of racist nationalists who really should not have been allowed to vote. You know this ain't the case.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Hope all you flag waving Brexiteers are feeling chuffed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bring it on. Let’s get angry & start robbing from the rich & toppling government. Because by Christ, we’re not angry enough that people in this shit hole of a country are going hungry already!!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 4, 2020)

EU still haven't blinked btw.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Bring it on. Let’s get angry & start robbing from the rich & toppling government. Because by Christ, we’re not angry enough that people in this shit hole of a country are going hungry already!!


Ooh I dunno. The high level of de-politicisation and low levels of class consciousness makes toppling government and expropriating the boss class all a bit unlikely right now. Until we build a viable mass movement, we're fucked. One thing's for sure though, the emergence of any such movement is highly unlikely while we're still arguing about Brexit bollocks.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You constantly try and paint all who voted leave as a homogenous blob, made of of racist nationalists who really should not have been allowed to vote. You know this ain't the case.


I don't actually, but don't let that dislodge that hefty chip from your shoulder. 

But fuck Brexit. It's fuelled xenophobia and division, given toxic arsedribbles like Farage an elevated platform and it's going to truly fuck over a shitload of people who deserve better.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 4, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> Ooh I dunno. The high level of de-politicisation and low levels of class consciousness makes toppling government and expropriating the boss class all a bit unlikely right now. Until we build a viable mass movement, we're fucked. One thing's for sure though, the emergence of any such movement is highly unlikely while we're still arguing about Brexit bollocks.



Starving the middle classes would be a spontaneous revolt. Anger is spontaneous. Anyway, that Indy article is click bait “brace yourself” crap. Back to the brexit weather.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't actually, but don't let that dislodge that hefty chip from your shoulder.



You asked whether he was “self identifying as a flag waver” - you know full well TC isn’t.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Starving the middle classes would be a spontaneous revolt. Anger is spontaneous. Anyway, that Indy article is click bait “brace yourself” crap. Back to the brexit weather.


True, anger is spontaneous, and these days, the most spontaneously angry seem to be in the far right camp. Maybe I'm being overly pessimistic. And yes, there's a lot to be said for spontaneous anger but for such anger to go anywhere positive, we could do with a lot more class conscious re-education.


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> You asked whether he was “self identifying as a flag waver” - you know full well TC isn’t.


Yet his angry, personalised  response was directly in answer to my comment that was _specifically referring to them_. I made no mention of him at all.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> Yet his angry, personalised  response was directly in answer to my comment that was _specifically referring to them_. I made no mention of him at all.



_But, _you know full well he’s not a “flag waver”.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Starving the middle classes would be a spontaneous revolt. Anger is spontaneous. Anyway, that Indy article is click bait “brace yourself” crap. Back to the brexit weather.


Is the revolution going to be led by the middle classes?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Is the revolution going to be led by the middle classes?



A lack of avocado & veal, & who knows


----------



## ohmyliver (Dec 4, 2020)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Johnson fizzing with ideas is it? 10 different ways to slip out of the office early to shag a Ukrainian violinist perhaps?


I suspect all the ideas are like 
we'regonnabuildabridgetoicelandandsellthemourfish
_sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiif_
weregoingtobuildsuperduperinternetwizthings
_sniiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiif_
crikeyCrispinwhodidyougetthisfromcan'twemakehimatrademinister?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A lack of avocado & veal, & who knows


I hadn't appreciated that this was the strategy.


----------



## gosub (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> A lack of avocado & veal, & who knows



 Had no trouble getting hold of veal so far this year


----------



## two sheds (Dec 4, 2020)

I have three avocado plants growing from stones  I feel I'll be self sufficient in avocados in about 20 years


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 4, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Is the revolution going to be led by the middle classes?



They often are. The elite rely on the middle stamping down on those below to keep order, when the middle starts grabbing those above is when it all starts to wobble for them.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 4, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> They often are. The elite rely on the middle stamping down on those below to keep order, when the middle starts grabbing those above is when it all starts to wobble for them.


Or rather, when those at the bottom get restless and start sloshing around, those in the middle ride the resulting waves waves


----------



## TopCat (Dec 4, 2020)

editor said:


> I don't actually, but don't let that dislodge that hefty chip from your shoulder.
> 
> But fuck Brexit. It's fuelled xenophobia and division, given toxic arsedribbles like Farage an elevated platform and it's going to truly fuck over a shitload of people who deserve better.


If your post wasn't aimed at smearing all leave voters as flag waving brexiteers, then who were you aiming at? 
Are there flag waving brexiteers on urban?


----------



## editor (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If your post wasn't aimed at smearing all leave voters as flag waving brexiteers, then who were you aiming at?
> Are there flag waving brexiteers on urban?


Touchy.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 4, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Brexit: Johnson and Von der Leyen to take over with direct talks
> 
> 
> UK PM and European commission president to speak on Saturday after negotiators fail to reach agreement
> ...


You forget the withdrawal agreement that’s already been signed.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 4, 2020)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Back to the brexit weather.


The weather forecast has just been on the telly. "France is experiencing low pressure" apparently.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 4, 2020)

If this is now a clash of UK v France, could it be that its the Yellow Vest pressure on Macron at work here - yellow vests in a way a mirror of Brexit forces in the UK. Poetic if so


----------



## gosub (Dec 4, 2020)

Raheem said:


> The weather forecast has just been on the telly. "France is experiencing low pressure" apparently.



Reminding me of Pressure which I got to see in Edinburgh, really good play something David Haig should be proud of. and James Stagg himself offcourse


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2020)

Well it's not looking good for a deal now is it?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2020)

Even I stuttered reading  the EU were insisting all EU funding be exempt from state aid rules.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it's not looking good for a deal now is it?


Send in Boris lol!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 5, 2020)

Oven ready


----------



## Flavour (Dec 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Even I stuttered reading  the EU were insisting all EU funding be exempt from state aid rules.



They ain't blinking. Boris may cave and agree to stuff like this but I wouldn't bet on it. The smart money has, for some time, been on No Deal. Though the WA is already apparently agreed to, and remains to be seen what impact there will be if UK government start fucking with it unilaterally, as they already have done to try and save face with Ulster


----------



## ska invita (Dec 5, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Oven ready


Simply prick the skin of Boris with a fork 100 times and microwave for an hour
#ovenready


----------



## brogdale (Dec 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Simply prick the skin of Boris with a fork 100 times and microwave for an hour
> #ovenready


self-basting roaster


----------



## two sheds (Dec 5, 2020)

Of all the people in the country to negotiate with the EU and we now have Johnson. It's almost as big an insult as sending Farage. Will at least make sure we get no bendy banana imports, though.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 5, 2020)

Farage is a busted flush.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Simply prick the skin of Boris with a fork 100 times and microwave for an hour
> #ovenready


Why don't we just prick the prick's prick with a fork 100 times, and forget about the microwave? (Allegedly)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Of all the people in the country to negotiate with the EU and we now have Johnson. It's almost as big an insult as sending Farage. Will at least make sure we get no bendy banana imports, though.


It will make sure we get nothing


----------



## Favelado (Dec 5, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Was just told by an Italian friend who is sorting out their status in the UK that if you are a British citizen living in the EU, if you don't come back to the UK by Spring 2022 after that date you will have to do so through the regular points-based, proven-income system. Doesn't sound right to me, would like to know for certain. Anyone know? Favelado?



Hi there. Sorry for getting back to you so late. I hadn't heard this and it looks like you've got some answers to it confirming it not to be the case. In my case, the issue is whether to switch nationality or not one day. Spain doesn't allow dual nationality for Brits.


----------



## editor (Dec 5, 2020)

😂


----------



## Flavour (Dec 5, 2020)

I don't believe that's real


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 5, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it's not looking good for a deal now is it?


He could have a deal, the problem is squaring it with all the lies and bullshit he’s been sprouting for the past few years.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 5, 2020)

dunno - suits all sides to make it look like a deal is done at the last minute like they've been proper negotiating hard - when the bottom line that the uk has to sign up to has been clear and unmoving since 2016.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 5, 2020)

I can see why fisheries is an issue, but what are the issues around the level playing field and enforcement? 

I imagine the EU is demanding Britain must abide by EU standards to trade with the EU, I don't have a problem with that, is there something about state support, Tories aren't really into that anyhow. 

Does anyone know the specifics they are stuck on?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 5, 2020)

Subsidies that impact competition and its mates I suggest . The EU don’t trust the administration to fairly enforce it fairly and would like some kind of semi autonomous body to oversee. Pretty shoddy that the UK is not trustworthy these days


----------



## weltweit (Dec 6, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Subsidies that impact competition and its mates I suggest . The EU don’t trust the administration to fairly enforce it fairly and would like some kind of semi autonomous body to oversee. Pretty shoddy that the UK is not trustworthy these days


I wonder what Johnson is considering subsidising ..


----------



## gosub (Dec 6, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder what Johnson is considering subsidising ..


AI


----------



## Lurdan (Dec 6, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder what Johnson is considering subsidising ..



I thought we were going into space. We've just invested £385 million bailing out OneWeb. 
OneWeb satellite internet company is officially reborn - BBC News

Obviously the 'doomsters' and 'gloomsters' are already pouring cold water.
The UK’s post-Brexit space dream has turned into a nightmare - WIRED UK


> Initially, the $500 million (£385m) investment, shared with Indian telecommunications company Bharti Global, was thought to be another step toward Britain building a home-grown alternative to Galileo, the European Union's global satellite system the country had recently rejected. There was a snag, however – OneWeb operated tiny satellites, measuring roughly one metre by one metre, that spun in constellations just 1,200 kilometres from Earth. The satellites used by major positioning systems – GPS, Russia's Glonass and Galileo – are all larger and orbit at altitudes of 20,000km. The UK, it seemed, had bought the wrong satellites.



But it's already saved a lot of jobs. Mostly in Florida where they make the satellites, but presumably a few in Kazakhstan where they launch them.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 6, 2020)

Lurdan said:


> I thought we were going into space. We've just invested £385 million bailing out OneWeb.





> The UK, it seemed, had bought the wrong satellites.


----------



## MrSpikey (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I can only hope that without a deal the 70% of electricity supplied from the European Union to the Northern Ireland part of the United Kingdom is switched off on January 1st, until such time as the UK resolves the border problem it created.





philosophical said:


> Well if you want to personalise it may I say you are a cunt.



You want people in a region that voted in favour of your pet cause to be punished, because other people outside that region didn't.

You have no right to call anyone else a cunt.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I can see why fisheries is an issue, but what are the issues around the level playing field and enforcement?
> 
> I imagine the EU is demanding Britain must abide by EU standards to trade with the EU, I don't have a problem with that, is there something about state support, Tories aren't really into that anyhow.
> 
> Does anyone know the specifics they are stuck on?


The level playing field doesn’t just refer to subsidies.  It also refers to tests and standards to apply to everything from manufacture to retail to financial services, such as environmental protections and workers’ rights.  I don’t know which if any of these elements are the ones being argued over, but I’m not assuming the problem is a Tory desire to nationalise everything!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2020)

What I don't understand are the demands that the government doesn't allow any "loss of sovereignty". Is this just a demand for no customs points within the UK?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> What I don't understand are the demands that the government doesn't allow any "loss of sovereignty". Is this just a demand for no customs points within the UK?



It's a dog whistle, it means nothing.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 6, 2020)

On reflection I'd imagine it would also mean no European laws to apply to the UK. But yes, what you said.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 6, 2020)

two sheds said:


> What I don't understand are the demands that the government doesn't allow any "loss of sovereignty". Is this just a demand for no customs points within the UK?


Something something territorial waters something


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

MrSpikey said:


> You want people in a region that voted in favour of your pet cause to be punished, because other people outside that region didn't.
> 
> You have no right to call anyone else a cunt.



In response to a personal insult.
Your reasoning is rubbish, brexit was the whole of the UK, if electricity could be cut off for Lewisham that too would be a a risk of no deal.
Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, ask them for their Northern Ireland electricity contingency plan.
I called the poster a cunt in response to an insult of their own, upped the ante if you like.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

I dont think there is any prospect of a deal. The EU will drag today out, then blame the UK for the end of the negotiations when they table that bill in parliament tomorrow morning.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's a dog whistle, it means nothing.


It doesn't mean nothing, dont be silly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think there is any prospect of a deal. The EU will drag today out, then blame the UK for the end of the negotiations when they table that bill in parliament tomorrow morning.


To be fair the government isn't shooting itself in the foot with that bill, it's blasting both feet with a shotgun


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> In response to a personal insult.
> Your reasoning is rubbish, brexit was the whole of the UK, if electricity could be cut off for Lewisham that too would be a a risk of no deal.
> Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, ask them for their Northern Ireland electricity contingency plan.
> I called the poster a cunt in response to an insult of their own, upped the ante if you like.


Upped the ante 

You mean you dived into the bargain basement


----------



## Badgers (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think there is any prospect of a deal. The EU will drag today out, then blame the UK for the end of the negotiations when they table that bill in parliament tomorrow morning.


The EU will blame the UK 

The UK voted for this
Government and media lied to the public
Promised an 'oven ready' deal
Promised £350m a week to the NHS
Offered nothing even resembling a 'deal'
Whipped up the gutter/right wing press
Broke international law
Risked the Good Friday Agreement
Mismanaged private sector outsourcing

Sorted themselves out with dual nationality and protected tax free offshore investments for them and their donors.

Still...

A few (already endangered) fish, racism and Black/blue passports eh?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Upped the ante
> 
> You mean you dived into the bargain basement



The control freak speaks

Again.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 6, 2020)

Badgers said:


> The EU will blame the UK
> 
> The UK voted for this
> Government and media lied to the public
> ...


The 'oven ready' deal when there was no oven.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The control freak speaks
> 
> Again.


repeating something doesn't make it true and only shows how dull you are.
And calling someone a cunt on the Internet has been done so so frequently that it is just a potty-mouthed way of saying 'i don't like you'.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 6, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Why don't we just prick the prick's prick with a fork 100 times, and forget about the microwave? (Allegedly)


Might struggle to find the surface area for that...


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> repeating something doesn't make it true and only shows how dull you are.
> And calling someone a cunt on the Internet has been done so so frequently that it is just a potty-mouthed way of saying 'i don't like you'.



An explanation such as this only shows how dull you are.
Is there ever going to be a time when any of your future responses to me does not contain some kind of patronising put down so beloved of control freaks?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 6, 2020)

we are heading towards being a pariah state at this rate. a badly regulated low tax haven for global shitbags.


----------



## Winot (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I personally think the EU will blink. Member states blaming each other soon.





TopCat said:


> Only a few days now. It will all be laid bare.



<a few days pass>



TopCat said:


> I dont think there is any prospect of a deal. The EU will drag today out, then blame the UK for the end of the negotiations when they table that bill in parliament tomorrow morning.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

Winot said:


> <a few days pass>


Things changed over a few days.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> An explanation such as this only shows how dull you are.
> Is there ever going to be a time when any of your future responses to me does not contain some kind of patronising put down so beloved of control freaks?


Pls explain why you think I'm a control freak when I haven't in any way sought to control you.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Pls explain why you think I'm a control freak when I haven't in any way sought to control you.


I have had that demented sociopath on ignore for ages. It's funny though reading posters quoted responses to his pol pot approach.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think there is any prospect of a deal. The EU will drag today out, then blame the UK for the end of the negotiations when they table that bill in parliament tomorrow morning.


That bill in parliament which just happens to go back on what was already agreed and ratified at the start of the year?. That one?.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> That bill in parliament which just happens to go back on what was already agreed and ratified at the start of the year?. That one?.


Yeah. That one.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Pls explain why you think I'm a control freak when I haven't in any way sought to control you.



Trawl back through your own posts, there's enough of them.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I have had that demented sociopath on ignore for ages. It's funny though reading posters quoted responses to his pol pot approach.


Your post 2399 suggests I am not on your ignore list.
I should be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Trawl back through your own posts, there's enough of them.


This does not explain why you think I am a control freak.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> This does not explain why you think I am a control freak.



Expecting me to explain myself to you is control freakery.
I don't expect you to explain every slight and insult you throw in my direction. My most common response is to suggest you put me on ignore.
Maybe at long last today you will do that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Expecting me to explain myself to you is control freakery.
> I don't expect you to explain every slight and insult you throw in my direction. My most common response is to suggest you put me on ignore.
> Maybe at long last today you will do that.


so you've now provided two very different answers to my question, neither of which explain why you think I am a control freak. If you feel posters here are unreasonable in asking you to substantiated claims you make maybe discussing things on the Internet isn't really for you. As far as I'm concerned your utter inability to offer any sort of coherent rationale for your assertion leads to conclude it's just a term of abuse with no basis in fact.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> so you've now provided two very different answers to my question, neither of which explain why you think I am a control freak. If you feel posters here are unreasonable in asking you to substantiated claims you make maybe discussing things on the Internet isn't really for you. As far as I'm concerned your utter inability to offer any sort of coherent rationale for your assertion leads to conclude it's just a term of abuse with no basis in fact.



You will have to accept (if it really matters that much to you) that I see you as a massive control freak.
Maybe other posters do too.

There you go, I have provided you with a post to strike another of your vaccous postures over.
Have fun with it if you want, seek approval from others if you like.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> You will have to accept (if it really matters that much to you) that I see you as a massive control freak.
> Maybe other posters do too.
> 
> There you go, I have provided you with a post to strike another of your vaccous postures over.
> Have fun with it if you want, seek approval from others if you like.


When you are reduced to saying your reasons for thinking me a control freak are you think I am a control freak you've shown your claim bereft of basis. I thought maybe you had a point because we don't always come across as we might intend on the internet. But in the light of your replies I don't think you do and it is just your way of calling me a cunt.


----------



## maomao (Dec 6, 2020)

Yeah. There's lots of epithets suitable for Pickman's model but control freak doesn't ring true.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 6, 2020)




----------



## TopCat (Dec 6, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Capitalism about to shake a bit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Not sure any de pfeffel pact will be much of an improvement on no deal


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Capitalism about to shake a bit.


We'll see what tumbles from the capitalist tree


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 6, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Capitalism about to shake a bit.



Capitalism will be fine, we'll be fucked.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

maomao said:


> Yeah. There's lots of epithets suitable for Pickman's model but control freak doesn't ring true.



Well the suggestion seems to be what would ring truer is that he is a cunt.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> When you are reduced to saying your reasons for thinking me a control freak are you think I am a control freak you've shown your claim bereft of basis. I thought maybe you had a point because we don't always come across as we might intend on the internet. But in the light of your replies I don't think you do and it is just your way of calling me a cunt.



'Reduced' indeed. Laugh out fucking loud.
_Reduced!_
And you're not a control freak?
We occupy different universes.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>




This will be reduced to that bastard Gove saying 'we realise things might be a tiny bit tricky for a short while'.


----------



## gosub (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> This will be reduced to that bastard Gove saying 'we realise things might be a tiny bit tricky for a short while'.


Robert Peston on Twitter: "I’ve been passed the 34-page document detailing the government’s assessment of the “reasonable worst case outcomes” if free trade talks collapse in next 24 hours. Here they are (and thanks to @mi6rogue for providing the doc) https://t.co/sDFQO2s27j" / Twitter


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> 'Reduced' indeed. Laugh out fucking loud.
> _Reduced!_
> And you're not a control freak?
> We occupy different universes.


You've not been able to bolster your claim with anything beyond repeatedly calling me a control freak. So yeh reduced.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 6, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


>




but Black/Blue Passports ..


so worth it for the british nation


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 6, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Well the suggestion seems to be what would ring truer is that he is a cunt.


We're all cunts here

We're all in the gutter together 

But some of us are looking at the stars


----------



## philosophical (Dec 6, 2020)

Stealing off Wilde.
'Cunt', stealing off Wertenbaker.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 6, 2020)

Moving on, eh?

Brexshite...remember that?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 6, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

_The highly controversial Kent Lorry Park, also known as the Farage Garage, has suffered a major setback after a massive sink hole 80 metres wide and 60 metres deep appeared in the middle of the site. Senior ministers have rushed to the site and are looking into it._


----------



## ska invita (Dec 7, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Capitalism will be fine, we'll be fucked.


Well said


----------



## TopCat (Dec 7, 2020)

This mornings reports that progress has been made on fishing come across as complete bollocks. 

I think the EU is setting up to put across they offered a decent deal but with today's bill hitting Parliament they have to walk out.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _The highly controversial Kent Lorry Park, also known as the Farage Garage, has suffered a major setback after a massive sink hole 80 metres wide and 60 metres deep appeared in the middle of the site. Senior ministers have rushed to the site and are looking into it._


Quatermass and the pit


----------



## Winot (Dec 7, 2020)

They won’t walk out.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2020)

....Erm. Truthtwisters alert:


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

*



			Brussels wants the UK to adhere to EU rules on issues like workers' rights, environmental regulations and state aid,
		
Click to expand...

*


> but the UK says the goal of Brexit was to break free from following common rules.



Those European monsters


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 7, 2020)

teqniq said:


> ....Erm. Truthtwisters alert:




Is this the deal the government rewrote?


That deal.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _The highly controversial Kent Lorry Park, also known as the Farage Garage, has suffered a major setback after a massive sink hole 80 metres wide and 60 metres deep appeared in the middle of the site. Senior ministers have rushed to the site and are looking into it._


_Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you got 'til it's gone..._


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

__





						Builders run short of supplies as UK port holdups raise Brexit concerns | Construction industry | The Guardian
					

Tools and materials stuck in ports struggling to process surge in imports under Covid controls




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> Builders are running short of everything from power tools and screws to timber and roof tiles as the gridlock at UK ports holds up crucial deliveries and sets off alarm bells in the run-up to Brexit.


----------



## tommers (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _The highly controversial Kent Lorry Park, also known as the Farage Garage, has suffered a major setback after a massive sink hole 80 metres wide and 60 metres deep appeared in the middle of the site. Senior ministers have rushed to the site and are looking into it._



Mother Kent is telling them to fuck off.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2020)

If no deal is signed, presumably France is entitled to no fishing rights at all in British waters?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If no deal is signed, presumably France is entitled to no fishing rights at all in British waters?


Good luck with policing that


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Good luck with policing that


Right.  So what we’re seeing here is the utter failure of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Right.  So what we’re seeing here is the utter failure of the doctrine of Mutually Assured Destruction


Well, we have upped the defence budget (not nurses salaries) so might as well use it.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

From 1st January 2021 any fish caught attempting to flee British waters will be shot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

Winot said:


> They won’t walk out.


no indeed they'll crawl out defeated


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> From 1st January 2021 any fish caught attempting to flee British waters will be shot.


(((((michael fish)))))


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 7, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If no deal is signed, presumably France is entitled to no fishing rights at all in British waters?


. Likely yes. Reverts to normal 6/12 miles default . Where it gets interesting is the 200 mile exclusive economic area that covers offshore access rights that was overridden by the London accord or agreements of last century but is being invoked again. New cod war possible. But maybe not cod iykwim.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 7, 2020)

One thing to bear in mind is the effective removal of swathes of sea where wind turbines are sitting around the coast now.Them cods are starting to move to theses new sites and there is a repopulation of these mini ecosystems as fishing isn’t allowed in these zones. Good news for fish, bad new fir the blunt instrument of industrial scale trawling . This will be another issue in the near future


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 7, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If no deal is signed, presumably France is entitled to no fishing rights at all in British waters?


Yes but we don't really have enough in the way of patrol vessels to enforce it, giant aircraft carriers not really a lot of use in this role. Even with competent government that planned ahead (stop laughing) it takes time (and money) to build/buy vessels and train crews so I suspect there will be much ignoring of UK sovereignity going on for a while.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 7, 2020)

Iceland framed the cod wars as a battle against colonialism and imperialism & got properly involved in a war of sabotage against the brits. The brits used much of it fleet as adapted battering rams against the plucky  Icelandic underdogs. The iceys won eventually. I wonder if some the new cash going to the military is earmarked for such tactics?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 7, 2020)

/ dull fish based posts


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> / dull fish based posts


you've haddock nuff of that then


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

So the hard Brexit will be some sort of a pescatarian nirvana, then?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So the hard Brexit will be some sort of a pescatarian nirvana, then?


Smells Like Bream Spirit


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Smells Like Bream Spirit


I'll tee 'em up....


----------



## Supine (Dec 7, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If no deal is signed, presumably France is entitled to no fishing rights at all in British waters?



I don't think there is anything to sign. No deal is just the law kicking in (or out).


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'll tee 'em up....


...and I'll pretend I know how to play.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Christ on a bike, NYE is gonna be such a cunt-fest, isn't it?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Christ on a bike, NYE is gonna be such a cunt-fest, isn't it?


Reckon they'll all be lying low, actually.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Reckon they'll all be lying low, actually.


On 'independence day'?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 7, 2020)

Supine said:


> I don't think there is anything to sign. No deal is just the law kicking in (or out).


Yea but if you don’t sign a deal then that means no deal is signed.  Not ‘no deal’ is signed.  Just no ‘deal is signed’.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 7, 2020)

So the deal they've got to be signed just doesn't get signed, so no deal is signed.

Just to clarify


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> On 'independence day'?


"Just a quiet one this year. Spend some time with the au pair before we have to drown her."


----------



## Badgers (Dec 7, 2020)

_How come when fish cross an imaginary line they become OUR fish, but when people do the same they don't become OUR people?_


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _How come when fish cross an imaginary line they become OUR fish, but when people do the same they don't become OUR people?_


They do, which was the whole point of Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _How come when fish cross an imaginary line they become OUR fish, but when people do the same they don't become OUR people?_


Because capitalists like to see their different factors of production as discrete.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

More "preparations" for the big day:


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> More preparations for the big day:
> 
> View attachment 242174


when i started reading i thought this temporary contraflow would be to handle lorries awaiting customs checks in kent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

Badgers said:


> _How come when fish cross an imaginary line they become OUR fish, but when people do the same they don't become OUR people?_


it's not so much fun for the government to lock up fish for years


----------



## Raheem (Dec 7, 2020)

Don't give them ideas.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 7, 2020)

CWS get in on the act:


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> More "preparations" for the big day:
> 
> View attachment 242174


You never hear from them now that the Govt doesn't have to pander to them anymore but the DUP must be absolutely losing their shit about this


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You never hear from them now that the Govt doesn't have to pander to them anymore but the DUP must be absolutely losing their shit about this


they have lost so much shit over the years it's a miracle they're not drowning in the stuff


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You never hear from them now that the Govt doesn't have to pander to them anymore but the DUP must be absolutely losing their shit about this


I'd assumed these were the RoI routes.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2020)

It hurts to find yourself in agreement with an Tory ex-PM, but to be fair John Mayor was probably more left than Blair in many issues.


----------



## editor (Dec 7, 2020)

brogdale said:


> More "preparations" for the big day:
> 
> View attachment 242174


So on top of all the other shit that Brexit is delivering, we can add extra pollution from lorries being held up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

editor said:


> It hurts to find yourself in agreement with an Tory ex-PM, but to be fair John Mayor was probably more left than Blair in many issues.
> 
> View attachment 242215


and has a closer brixton connection than the scottish labour pm


----------



## gosub (Dec 7, 2020)

editor said:


> It hurts to find yourself in agreement with an Tory ex-PM, but to be fair John Mayor was probably more left than Blair in many issues.
> 
> View attachment 242215



It was possible to leave the EU and be in the Single Market, it was not the direction the Government, under the direction of 10 Downing Street opted to take. Fucking should have. Major gets an easier ride than he deserves, privatized a fuck ton of stuff and ended up with some interesting Board positions. A more consummate  éminence grise than Blair though


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> when i started reading i thought this temporary contraflow would be to handle lorries awaiting customs checks in kent.


We're getting one here too!









						Details of 235-space lorry checkpoint on A31 between Alresford and Winchester revealed
					

DETAILED plans for a lorry park capable of checking 235 vehicles a day – designed to prevent border chaos following Brexit – have been published.




					www.hampshirechronicle.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they have lost so much shit over the years it's a miracle they're not drowning in the stuff


They will be now.

No period of 'grace' for the introduction of checks on goods entering NI from GB; they'll kick in on New Year's day.

Not looking so good for those interested in adequate food supplies or medicines etc.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 7, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> We're getting one here too!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I expect, in the end, it'll be easier to report on any areas without a lorry park.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 7, 2020)

Maybe when rUK looks a bit fucked and RoI is swimming ever more gleefully in those tax dodging Facebook dollars the ulstermen may look more favorably on a change of status as an autonomous province of the Republic rather than whatever the fuck it is they will be after Jan 1


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 7, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Maybe when rUK looks a bit fucked and RoI is swimming ever more gleefully in those tax dodging Facebook dollars the ulstermen may look more favorably on a change of status as an autonomous province of the Republic rather than whatever the fuck it is they will be after Jan 1


The sash my father wore will be replaced by the soldiers' song


----------



## flypanam (Dec 8, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Maybe when rUK looks a bit fucked and RoI is swimming ever more gleefully in those tax dodging Facebook dollars the ulstermen may look more favorably on a change of status as an autonomous province of the Republic rather than whatever the fuck it is they will be after Jan 1


They never looked on with envy during the "Celtic Tiger" years. I suspect that some around the DUP want to go down with the ship. Whether their constituents want to, is another thing entirely. The south is never going to be attractive till simple measures like a national health service is in place and has a strategy other than attracting tax dogers to sustain the economy.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 8, 2020)

Can’t wait for the latest Brexit news each day at the minute


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 8, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Can’t wait for the latest Brexit news each day at the minute
> 
> View attachment 242303


----------



## philosophical (Dec 8, 2020)

Been out for my walk and return to some kind of news about a breakthrough on the Northern Irish protocol.
I will see what emerges.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 8, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> View attachment 242304



I'd be more than happy to see those two running things, compared to the current bunch of cunts at present.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Been out for my walk and return to some kind of news about a breakthrough on the Northern Irish protocol.
> I will see what emerges.


its the border in the irish sea which boris did theresa may & the dup over with


----------



## Raheem (Dec 8, 2020)

Caving on Historic Vaccine Day. Who'd have seen that coming?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 8, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Caving on Historic Vaccine Day. Who'd have seen that coming?



was anyone daft enough to believe they’d rushed through the vaccine approval out of some kind of concern for humanity rather than trying to get some PR win to hide the Brexit shitshow behind?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 8, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> was anyone daft enough to believe they’d rushed through the vaccine approval out of some kind of concern for humanity rather than trying to get some PR win to hide the Brexit shitshow behind?


Yeah.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2020)

Why am I not surprised?









						Ineos boss opts to build 'British' heir to Land Rover Defender in France
					

Vocal Brexiter Sir Jim Ratcliffe vowed to make new Grenadier 4x4 in Bridgend but has now bought car plant at Hambach




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 8, 2020)

He is a proper shitbag that ratcliffe


----------



## Badgers (Dec 8, 2020)

#worldbeating 

Boss in Monaco 
Manufacturing in France


----------



## mauvais (Dec 8, 2020)

Building a Land Rover Defender in France sounds like quite a solid way to get rid of, "an estimated £12.15bn fortune".


----------



## SpineyNorman (Dec 8, 2020)

Anyone like to tell me wtf is going on now? Is it looking like Johnson will accept a deal now?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 8, 2020)

I dunno. In other news I was listening to a podcast talking about disaster movies, and how they're better than reality because they never feature electoralism, and they raise the question of what's worse:

a) an asteroid, which someone points at and says, 'an asteroid!'
b) an asteroid, which someone points at and says, 'I voted for that'
c) an asteroid, which someone points at and says, 'I wish now I _hadn't _voted for that'


----------



## ska invita (Dec 8, 2020)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anyone like to tell me wtf is going on now? Is it looking like Johnson will accept a deal now?


Who knows.
Were it not for the fact that these things always go to the wire id say with confidence No Deal...I just can't imagine these Tories agreeing to the level playing field bit. Deregulation is much more likely our future


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 8, 2020)

Rock and a hard place. No deal will just mean having  to accept the eus terms after several months of chaos rather than accept them now.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 8, 2020)

Chances of Brexit deal hang on Boris Johnson and Ursula von der Leyen dinner
					

News that PM will meet European commission president comes as Michel Barnier says chance of deal is ‘very slim’




					www.theguardian.com
				




I wonder if he will attempt to grope her leg?


----------



## teqniq (Dec 8, 2020)

Lol.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 8, 2020)

I wouldn't mind a tapering arrangement for fisheries. 

Nothing wrong with a level playing field if we want to supply into the EU on a free trade basis, and we do. 

As to policing the level playing field, I wonder what proposals are there at the moment? anyone know?

So those points resolved, there is the little matter of my bill!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 8, 2020)

Honda has cancelled production from tomorrow due to parts shortages.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 8, 2020)

they are out of the UK anyway IIRC


----------



## MrSki (Dec 8, 2020)

The self sanctioning starts soon. I suppose if you supply portaloos you might be happy but the UK is fucked.


----------



## Aladdin (Dec 9, 2020)

Looks like Ireland will be drowned alongside the UK.








						The price of Brexit: shoppers face immediate rise in prices as food, furniture and electrical goods on import hit list
					

The price of a no-deal Brexit for Irish shoppers will be spelled out today with a warning that they face an immediate rise in the cost of many staples.




					amp.independent.ie
				




The price of a no-deal Brexit for Irish shoppers will be spelled out today with a warning that they face an immediate rise in the cost of many staples.

On the hit list for imports will be breakfast cereals, sausages, chocolate, electrical goods, textiles, potatoes, processed foods – even those using ingredients that originated in Ireland.
The overall burden of import tariffs on British food alone will be in the order of between €1.3bn and €1.5bn.

Mr Cullinan said delays since the original Brexit vote in 2016 followed by the Covid-19 pandemic had dulled huge numbers of people to the imminent threat.

“The normal consumer doesn’t get it at the moment,” he said
Despite massive efforts at market diversification, the UK is the current destination for 38pc of Ireland’s overall agri-food exports, including 44 pc of all beef exports, 41pc of cheese exports, almost 100pc of mushrooms, 20pc of lamb exports and a third of pigmeat exports."




We are fucked. Basically...
It's as if the people in the UK and to some extent in Ireland too, have slept through this . Like a frog in a pot of water that's gradually heating up.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 9, 2020)

SpineyNorman said:


> Anyone like to tell me wtf is going on now? Is it looking like Johnson will accept a deal now?


Against all the odds the plucky elites are acting in their own self interest.


----------



## tommers (Dec 9, 2020)

Sugar Kane said:


> We are fucked. Basically...
> It's as if the people in the UK and to some extent in Ireland too, have slept through this . Like a frog in a pot of water that's gradually heating up.



People tried. Got shouted down, called traitors and accused of spreading "project fear". 

The country is fucked.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

tommers said:


> People tried. Got shouted down, called traitors and accused of spreading "project fear".
> 
> The country is fucked.


The majority of the people voting didnt agree.


----------



## tommers (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The majority of the people voting didnt agree.



Yep.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Guardian leads with Gove's 'grace' for grub to NI...



...which pretty much confirms that, after the period of grace, the Sainsbury fear of 2 certs/ham+cheese sarnie will apply.

Project Reality.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 9, 2020)

Big dinner tonight for Ursula and Boris - my question is: who is paying for this dinner? The EU budget? Is the UK taxpayer contributing to the expenditure of this three-course meal in Brussels?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Big dinner tonight for Ursula and Boris - my question is: who is paying for this dinner? The EU budget? Is the UK taxpayer contributing to the expenditure of this three-course meal in Brussels?


We will be paying for this dinner for years to come


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Guardian leads with Gove's 'grace' for grub to NI...
> 
> View attachment 242459
> 
> ...


No check for the bread then


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No check for the bread then


and butter makes 4 certs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> and butter makes 4 certs.


The sandwiches will be mouldy before they hit the shelf


----------



## Flavour (Dec 9, 2020)

Is this a secret pro-vegan bureaucratic assault in disguise? Down with ham! Down with cheese!


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Guardian leads with Gove's 'grace' for grub to NI...
> 
> View attachment 242459
> 
> ...


This will come across as insane, but maybe they could just import the bread, the cheese and the ham and employ people to make the sandwiches locally.

Unless of course there are no pre-trained workers and sandwich making is yet another job that has to be done in Romania or India...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Big dinner tonight for Ursula and Boris - my question is: who is paying for this dinner? The EU budget? Is the UK taxpayer contributing to the expenditure of this three-course meal in Brussels?


Yes we will pay a share like with all expenditure during transition.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> This will come across as insane, but maybe they could just import the bread, the cheese and the ham and employ people to make the sandwiches locally.
> 
> Unless of course there are no pre-trained workers and sandwich making is yet another job that has to be done in Romania or India...


Who wants a three day old sarnie anyway?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Who wants a three day old sarnie anyway?


British rail catering nostalgists


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Who wants a three day old sarnie anyway?


I hear they'll be much in demand among lorry drivers in kent


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Who wants a three day old sarnie anyway?


Just you wait.

By 2nd January once the Brexit apocalypse has arrived you'll literally *kill *for a three day old ham and cheese sarnie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> Just you wait.
> 
> By 2nd January once Brexit apocalypse has arrived you'll literally *kill *for a three day old ham and cheese sarnie.


I've seen TopCat's kitchen and he's prepared for seven lean years


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

#RatsandRainwater


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Guardian leads with Gove's 'grace' for grub to NI...
> 
> View attachment 242459
> 
> ...


Some inside knowledge. The ham and cheese are both treated as animal products so a single declaration. 

If there was Cucumber too then it would be two declarations (animal/phytosanitary).


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2020)

Gravel sandwiches with no butter it is then


----------



## Winot (Dec 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Some inside knowledge. The ham and cheese are both treated as animal products so a single declaration.
> 
> If there was Cucumber too then it would be two declarations (animal/phytosanitary).



How many declarations for jacket potato with cheese and beans? What about jacket potato with beans and cheese?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Some inside knowledge.


Do you know how long Gove's "not for very long" grace period will last?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Do you know how long Gove's "not for very long" grace period will last?


Until we reach the end of the string


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2020)

Winot said:


> How many declarations for jacket potato with cheese and beans? What about jacket potato with beans and cheese?


Potatoes, tinned beans and cheese will require phytosanitry/animal declarations unless shipped together. If shipped together they need an enhanced declaration.

That applies for GB-NI

Goods from NI-GB require no declarations unless they fall under 'controlled goods'

Goods movements 'at risk' from GB-NI (that may enter the EU via Ireland are subject to tariffs (TBC).


----------



## Raheem (Dec 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Do you know how long Gove's "not for very long" grace period will last?


I was under the impression that the plan was to hang him pretty much on day one.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 9, 2020)

If goods aren't controlled from NI into GB and the RoI/6c border remains frictionless then isn't that an easy route to smuggle stuff into the UK?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> If goods aren't controlled from NI into GB


They will be, after a short grace period


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I was under the impression that the plan was to hang him pretty much on day one.


hanging too good etc


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2020)

ska invita said:


> They will be, after a short grace period


They won't


----------



## Badgers (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> If goods aren't controlled from NI into GB and the RoI/6c border remains frictionless then isn't that an easy route to smuggle stuff into the UK?


Yea


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Badgers said:


> They won't


they will be controlled or they won't be controlled? i'm confused as to where we are


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2020)

200+ crossing points aren't there as I recall? 

No chance of smuggling there sir.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> 200+ crossing points aren't there as I recall?
> 
> No chance of smuggling there sir.


there's places where one side of a house is in the 6 cos and the other in the 26


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

two sheds said:


> 200+ crossing points aren't there as I recall?
> 
> No chance of smuggling there sir.


i thought we were talking about NI and mainland Britain
but yeah no checks between Ireland and NI
Until theres deviation on standards!!


----------



## teuchter (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> they will be controlled or they won't be controlled? i'm confused as to where we are


We're in the UK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

So how does Johnson present the capitulation as a triumph? Does he need to care that the ERG will be apoplectic?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

teuchter said:


> We're in the UK.


you manage to state the bleeding obvious and miss the point in one carefully confected piece of fuckwittery


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

Flavour said:


> If goods aren't controlled from NI into GB and the RoI/6c border remains frictionless then isn't that an easy route to smuggle stuff into the UK?


They have to get that stuff into ireland in the first place. Unless you are talking about smuggling poteen. In which case bring it in.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So how does Johnson present the capitulation as a triumph? Does he need to care that the ERG will be apoplectic?


I dont think most will notice and less will give a care.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 9, 2020)

Sunlit uplands and a gold age of opportunity for the next generation of young Turk slab murphys


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So how does Johnson present the capitulation as a triumph? Does he need to care that the ERG will be apoplectic?



It's the apoplexy of his financial rather than political backers he'll be more worried about.


----------



## gosub (Dec 9, 2020)

Boris Johnson heads to Brussels for last-ditch Brexit trade talks with EU chief    phew, I


Dogsauce said:


> was anyone daft enough to believe they’d rushed through the vaccine approval out of some kind of concern for humanity rather than trying to get some PR win to hide the Brexit shitshow behind?



Yes and no, we always were going to have horses in the race for vaccine


TopCat said:


> I dont think most will notice and less will give a care.



Depends, its have Labour prop up the 'deal' and get booted out by tory membership in Spring or no deal and soldier on


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's the apoplexy of his financial rather than political backers he'll be more worried about.


You'd think so. I still back a deal with Johnson backing down on almost everything and trying to make out it is a triumph of diplomacy. It's not a dead cert, but abandoning Cummings' 'let's just break the law' approach was a signal that this is coming.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You'd think so. I still back a deal with Johnson backing down on almost everything and trying to make out it is a triumph of diplomacy. It's not a dead cert, but abandoning Cummings' 'let's just break the law' approach was a signal that this is coming.


You want that but that doesn't make it likely.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You want that but that doesn't make it likely.


I think it is likely because the alternative is chaos - the kind of chaos that hurts the poorest the hardest.

I do want it, yes. What's not to want about the UK agreeing to ratchet up standards as the EU does? I want Johnson to be forced to give in over every single thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think it is likely because the alternative is chaos - the kind of chaos that hurts the poorest the hardest.
> 
> I do want it, yes. What's not to want about the UK agreeing to ratchet up standards as the EU does? I want Johnson to be forced to give in over every single thing.


er it's not about ratcheting up standards, it's about changing standards. standards like shares can go up and down. there is nothing ratchet about it


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They have to get that stuff into ireland in the first place. Unless you are talking about smuggling poteen. In which case bring it in.


If Sugar Kane 's earlier post about how much of various RoI produce gets exported to the UK is correct, there could be a lucrative opportunity for some mushroom smuggling...


----------



## Raheem (Dec 9, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You'd think so. I still back a deal with Johnson backing down on almost everything and trying to make out it is a triumph of diplomacy. It's not a dead cert, but abandoning Cummings' 'let's just break the law' approach was a signal that this is coming.


I agree that we are on course for a deal, but backing down on NI doesn't tell us much either way. The reality of having no deal and then lumping a likely and unwinnable trade war with the EU on top of that would be catastrophe squared. Either way, they had to do it.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2020)




----------



## Flavour (Dec 9, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They have to get that stuff into ireland in the first place. Unless you are talking about smuggling poteen. In which case bring it in.



Don't forget all those direct France-Ireland ferries that will giving us two fingers as they sail merrily past the Cornish coast


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2020)

Wales gets fucked again. Can someone who voted for this omnishambles remind me what the supposed benefits of Brexit were?



> Ineos has confirmed its new Grenadier cars will be manufactured in France, not Wales as had been hoped.
> The chemical conglomerate, controlled by prominent Brexit supporter Sir Jim Ratcliffe, said it will build the vehicles at the former Mercedes-Benz factory in Hambach, Moselle, following a deal with the German carmaker.
> 
> Production of a new vehicle, inspired by the Land Rover Defender, was due to begin in Bridgend next year, creating around 500 jobs once production reached full capacity.
> ...













						Brexit-backing Ineos boss confirms new cars will be built in France instead of Wales
					

Sir Jim Ratcliffe says French factory "well located for access to markets, suppliers and automotive talent"




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2020)

Looks like we'll soon be calling it Briexit

Tesco: Brexit 'could see people choose cheddar over brie'


> Brits could turn back to cheddar if the price of French cheese shoots up after a no-deal Brexit. Tesco's chair John Allan told the BBC that import taxes could push up the price of brie by as much as 40%. He said it might "change the mix of what people eat", leading to people buying more British cheddar.


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2020)




----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> er it's not about ratcheting up standards, it's about changing standards. standards like shares can go up and down. there is nothing ratchet about it



That is true, but with the Tory right in the driving seat and various shady neoliberal think-tanks in advisory positions it's pretty hard to see the UK diverging from European standards in any way other than downwards in the foreseeable future.

Fundamentally the choice Johnson has tonight is to blow up the country with 'no deal' or blow up the Tory party by caving in on pretty much everything, and the messages are mixed as to which way he might jump.  Today's bollocks in Parliament about the EU's conditions being unacceptable points one way, whereas dropping bits of the Internal Market Bill point the other.

That choice is basically the same as the government's had since May defined Brexit as what was then referred to as 'hard Brexit' back in 2016, and effectively took EEA membership off the table.  They've basically been kicking the can down the road ever since then, and now they've come to the end of the road.  The news for the next few days is going to be interesting...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> That is true, but with the Tory right in the driving seat and various shady neoliberal think-tanks in advisory positions it's pretty hard to see the UK diverging from European standards in any way other than downwards in the foreseeable future.
> 
> Fundamentally the choice Johnson has tonight is to blow up the country with 'no deal' or blow up the Tory party by caving in on pretty much everything, and the messages are mixed as to which way he might jump.  Today's bollocks in Parliament about the EU's conditions being unacceptable points one way, whereas dropping bits of the Internal Market Bill point the other.
> 
> That choice is basically the same as the government's had since May defined Brexit as what was then referred to as 'hard Brexit' back in 2016, and effectively took EEA membership off the table.  They've basically been kicking the can down the road ever since then, and now they've come to the end of the road.  The news for the next few days is going to be interesting...


I may be wrong, and he can speak for himself, but I'm thinking that Pickman's model was reminding us that the standards demanded by a neoliberal supra state may not always go in the workers' interests?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I may be wrong, and he can speak for himself, but I'm thinking that Pickman's model was reminding us that the standards demanded by a neoliberal supra state may not always go in the workers' interests?



Oh yes, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that the EU works in workers' interests for much of the time - just that a Tory-led Britain with nothing to restrain it is likely to be worse!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Oh yes, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that the EU works in workers' interests for much of the time - just that a Tory-led Britain with nothing to restrain it is likely to be worse!


Or, indeed, much the same?
The reason I couldn't bring myself to participate in the tory referendum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I may be wrong, and he can speak for himself, but I'm thinking that Pickman's model was reminding us that the standards demanded by a neoliberal supra state may not always go in the workers' interests?


just so. the eu standards today may be superior to the eu standards in 2025. the notion the eu is only ever raising standards explicit in lbj's post is an error


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2020)

editor said:


> Wales gets fucked again. Can someone who voted for this omnishambles remind me what the supposed benefits of Brexit were?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well presumably the Welsh, who voted for Brexit, can.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Or, indeed, much the same?
> The reason I couldn't bring myself to participate in the tory referendum.



I think it'll very likely be worse.  After all, the government is running scared of / being steered by the ERG lot, who think the EU's - minimal - rules on employment protection are some sort of communist plot.  Tbh the prospect of that is why I did vote in the referendum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Oh yes, and I'm certainly not trying to suggest that the EU works in workers' interests for much of the time - just that a Tory-led Britain with nothing to restrain it is likely to be worse!


oh left to his own devices i am sure johnson would have children back working in mines and factories up and down the land


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> oh left to his own devices i am sure johnson would have children back working in mines and factories up and down the land



Sending a few slaves out to the latifundia.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> oh left to his own devices i am sure johnson would have children back working in mines and factories up and down the land



It'll be just like the good old days, don'tcha know.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2020)

give them early work experience


----------



## editor (Dec 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Well presumably the Welsh, who voted for Brexit, can.


Apparently 'The Welsh' didn't vote in favour of Brexit  actually. But then everyone who voted had been fed hot piles of stinking bullshit and lies from the start.









						English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research finds
					

Areas of Wales with big English communities had larger leave vote in 2016, according to study




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## andysays (Dec 9, 2020)

editor said:


> Apparently 'The Welsh' didn't vote in favour of Brexit  actually. But then everyone who voted had been fed hot piles of stinking bullshit and lies from the start.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


#notproperwelsh


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2020)

andysays said:


> #notproperwelsh



#sendthemmunsbackboyo


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 9, 2020)

is it time for the failboat memes yet


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> is it time for the failboat memes yet



Not quite.  They'll barely have started the first course.

Hopefully the main will be fish and Johnson will get a bone in his throat.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 9, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not quite.  They'll barely have started the first course.
> 
> Hopefully the main will be fish and Johnson will get a bone in his throat.



Scallops, apparently, and turbot. How topical. Sadly Johnson hasn't choked yet.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 9, 2020)

Oh dear.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Emblematic?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

and "_Discussions have not gone well."_


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 9, 2020)

Talking until Sunday then a decision.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2020)

The meal didn't go well apparently.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2020)

We should agree to the ratchet clause and then immediately set all our standards to completely impossible levels just to fuck with everybody else.  Then we all have a good laugh as everybodys’ economies collapse.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The meal didn't go well apparently.


Fish supper; cheeky fuckers


----------



## Supine (Dec 9, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The meal didn't go well apparently.



I'm shocked!!!


----------



## weltweit (Dec 9, 2020)

IIRC UK Gov wants to establish UK standards. I forget the abbreviation, I don't think the UK has the capacity at the moment to produce and defend its own standards, anyhow CE standards are recognised worldwide, I don't see the need to develop competing standards.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2020)

Actually, revise my previous statement.  Just set impossible standards in the industries we don’t have any stake in, like, er, handball and donkey sausages.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 9, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fish supper; cheeky fuckers



Boris was upset because it wasn't fish fingers on buttery bread with tomato sauce


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2020)

And where was the gravy train?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 9, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Talking until Sunday then a decision.



with Boris ?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 9, 2020)

Just saw another of those 'talks extended for a further 72 hours' type headlines. GET BREXIT DONE, lol.


----------



## BCBlues (Dec 9, 2020)

Saturday Night/ Sunday Morning it is then.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 9, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Just saw another of those 'talks extended for a further 72 hours' type headlines. GET BREXIT DONE, lol.


Another ten years of negotiations to go


----------



## brogdale (Dec 9, 2020)

Interesting to look back 11 months:









						The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
					

Now the the UK has 'left' the supra-state, perhaps it's time to move onto a new thread considering the negotiations to establish a new trading relationship with the 27?  Of course, the opening gambits will be negotiating positions, but did we expect the right party of capital to come out so...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## kabbes (Dec 9, 2020)

In fact, the UK are banning live animal exports.  Will that not mean the EU also have to, if a ratchet clause is agreed?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 9, 2020)

kabbes said:


> In fact, the UK are banning live animal exports.  Will that not mean the EU also have to, if a ratchet clause is agreed?


I thought the whole Brexit thing was a rat shit clause.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

kabbes said:


> In fact, the UK are banning live animal exports.  Will that not mean the EU also have to, if a ratchet clause is agreed?


Will you be able to transport live animals to N Ireland?
etc


brogdale said:


> Interesting to look back 11 months:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


in that nothing much has changed?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 9, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Just saw another of those 'talks extended for a further 72 hours' type headlines. GET BREXIT DONE, lol.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 9, 2020)

This possible failure of the talks is because of the EU insistence that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed. It would be interesting to know what has been provisionally agreed to date, would give an idea how far we have come. 

I see fishing as a problem because of political rather than actual value, level playing field and enforcement are much bigger but entirely predictable issues.


----------



## Winot (Dec 9, 2020)

weltweit said:


> This possible failure of the talks is because of the EU insistence that nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.



If they were agreeing piecemeal what is the incentive to compromise on any individual issue?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 9, 2020)

Winot said:


> If they were agreeing piecemeal what is the incentive to compromise on any individual issue?


Free trade is tied to a level playing field, if we/they don't achieve a level playing field there will be tariffs. I would have thought there would be enough motivation to compromise on that without needing fishing to hold it up.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> In fact, the UK are banning live animal exports.  Will that not mean the EU also have to, if a ratchet clause is agreed?


Think it's unlikely to be a two-way ratchet.


----------



## gosub (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think it's unlikely to be a two-way ratchet.



 What s a two-way ratchet?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

gosub said:


> What s a two-way ratchet?


Unlikely.


----------



## gosub (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Unlikely.


No, what do you actually mean by a two way ratchet?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

If EU minimum standards rise, then UK standards will rise (to avoid consequences). However, it won't work the other way. UK standards can go as high as they like, but EU countries won't have to follow suit. It has to be that way, because otherwise the EU would be giving the UK a power to single-handedly determine EU policy that the EU's own member states don't have.

So, it's a one-way ratchet. Like a one-way street, but confusing.


----------



## Jay Park (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If EU minimum standards rise, then UK standards will rise (to avoid consequences). However, it won't work the other way. UK standards can go as high as they like, but EU countries won't have to follow suit. It has to be that way, because otherwise the EU would be giving the UK a power to single-handedly determine EU policy that the EU's own member states don't have.
> 
> So, it's a one-way ratchet. Like a one-way street, but confusing.



UK standards and high, been a while since I heard a sentence built around those two things


----------



## Supine (Dec 10, 2020)

Jay Park said:


> UK standards and high, been a while since I heard a sentence built around those two things



The UK is high, standard.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 10, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Just saw another of those 'talks extended for a further 72 hours' type headlines. GET BREXIT DONE, lol.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> If EU minimum standards rise, then UK standards will rise (to avoid consequences). However, it won't work the other way. UK standards can go as high as they like, but EU countries won't have to follow suit. It has to be that way, because otherwise the EU would be giving the UK a power to single-handedly determine EU policy that the EU's own member states don't have.
> 
> So, it's a one-way ratchet. Like a one-way street, but confusing.


Gotta say, I think it’s an unfair clause if it doesn’t apply both ways.  The reason it’s unpalatable to the EU to give the UK power to set standards is exactly the same reason why is also unpalatable in reverse. Either you allow both parties to have control over the other equally or you allow neither to have it.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Interesting to look back 11 months:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Is it? Effectively nothing has happened in that time.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Gotta say, I think it’s an unfair clause if it doesn’t apply both ways.  The reason it’s unpalatable to the EU to give the UK power to set standards is exactly the same reason why is also unpalatable in reverse. Either you allow both parties to have control over the other equally or you allow neither to have it.



If only we were in the EU to influence and increase both ways.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> If only we were in the EU to influence and increase both ways.


Well we’re not.

I wouldn’t want us to sign that kind of one-way arrangement with the US, so why should the EU be any different?


----------



## Supine (Dec 10, 2020)

I don't think there is any talk about giving the UK powers to dictate standards. The options have been UK stays as is or increases in line with eu.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 10, 2020)

Look at the state of it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Gotta say, I think it’s an unfair clause if it doesn’t apply both ways.  The reason it’s unpalatable to the EU to give the UK power to set standards is exactly the same reason why is also unpalatable in reverse. Either you allow both parties to have control over the other equally or you allow neither to have it.




Bit like the state aid thing, the EU says the U.K. can’t give state aid to companies, but the EU can cos it is not a state, it’s only their member states that can’t.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Look at the state of it.



Remember when Corbyns suit was a subject for all UK journalists to discuss with a straight face?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Is it? Effectively nothing has happened in that time.


Yeas, kind of what I was getting at...and who was basically telling us what would happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Look at the state of it.


A poundland auric goldfinger
boris shithands


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

editor said:


> View attachment 242510


That's told 'em.


----------



## MrSki (Dec 10, 2020)

Do you think he shat himself & had to borrow a suit?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Don't forget all those direct France-Ireland ferries that will giving us two fingers as they sail merrily past the Cornish coast


Why do we want them driving across the UK?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2020)

Johnson and "high-level talks" have never sat easily in the same sentence


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Johnson and "high-level talks" have never sat easily in the same sentence


Everything would fly over his head


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Why do we want them driving across the UK?


An interesting question!
Let's hope, for the sake of our food supplies that it's not one that the French ask of UK hauliers.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 10, 2020)

You got to hand it to Barnier, he really has stamina! He's like the last man standing.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> You got to hand it to Barnier, he really has stamina! He's like the last man standing.


Yeah, and some reserves of courage to negotiate with an opponent _that held all the cards._


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2020)

Not in _that suit _though


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

If there ends up being no deal, that is a dismal failure for Barnier and the EU as well as for Johnson and the U.K.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Gotta say, I think it’s an unfair clause if it doesn’t apply both ways.  The reason it’s unpalatable to the EU to give the UK power to set standards is exactly the same reason why is also unpalatable in reverse. Either you allow both parties to have control over the other equally or you allow neither to have it.


Is there precedent for such an agreement anywhere - where one party is much larger than the other?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> An interesting question!
> Let's hope, for the sake of our food supplies that it's not one that the French ask of UK hauliers.


But Dominic Raab pointed out on the toady programme that the eu only supplies 30% of our food so presumably we can do without


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> But Dominic Raab pointed out on the toady programme that the eu only supplies 30% of our food so presumably we can do without


Raab clearly doesn't shop in Lidl.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 10, 2020)

MrSki said:


> Do you think he shat himself & had to borrow a suit?


The man is a positive fashion icon, Frost's suit isn't much better it looks like he bought it off the peg and they didn't quite have his size.


----------



## DownwardDog (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If there ends up being no deal, that is a dismal failure for Barnier and the EU as well as for Johnson and the U.K.



MB can only negotiate up to the limits mandate he's given by the EU27. Ultimately the want a deal but won't compromise the single market to get it. Particularly as the EU think they'll get a better deal from the UK next year after they've had a no deal beasting.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Everything would fly over his head


Doesn't look like there will be much flying next month.








						Holidaymakers from Great Britain barred from EU after 1 January under Covid rules
					

European commission indicates Britons will face ban on non-essential travel at end of Brexit transition




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

DownwardDog said:


> MB can only negotiate up to the limits mandate he's given by the EU27. Ultimately the want a deal but won't compromise the single market to get it. Particularly as the EU think they'll get a better deal from the UK next year after they've had a no deal beasting.


The fact that he can only negotiate up to the limits set for him is why no deal is a failure of the EU.  But even within those limits, an different negotiator given a different approach for the last four years may  well have been able to achieve something.

It takes two sides to negotiate.  Failure to get a deal is not just the fault of one side.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Is there precedent for such an agreement anywhere - where one party is much larger than the other?


What precedents are there for a country just accepting the all rules today and forever of a club without being a member of that club?  Is that something that eg Norway has signed up to?  It seems like a really bad idea.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

2hats said:


> Doesn't look like there will be much flying next month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tarquin and Jocasta will be hoping for snow in the Cairngorms, then?


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Gotta say, I think it’s an unfair clause if it doesn’t apply both ways.  The reason it’s unpalatable to the EU to give the UK power to set standards is exactly the same reason why is also unpalatable in reverse. Either you allow both parties to have control over the other equally or you allow neither to have it.


You're absolutely right it is unfair but we're now up against the harsh reality of we need a deal with them way more than they need one with us. The US is going to screw us over as well for exactly the same reason.
The fact that our politicians are a bunch of self-serving cunts shouldn't obscure the fact that other countries politicians are as well.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

2hats said:


> Doesn't look like there will be much flying next month.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just saw the same thing.




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				



You can’t go unless you’re a diplomat or it’s an emergency ? That’s shit news. Was hoping to see my parents.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> You're absolutely right it is unfair but we're now up against the harsh reality of we need a deal with them way more than they need one with us. The US is going to screw us over as well for exactly the same reason.
> The fact that our politicians are a bunch of self-serving cunts shouldn't obscure the fact that other countries politicians are as well.


Well, what we’re up against is the question of whether it is worse to have no deal or to sign up to something indefinitely that we don’t know the consequences of.  I’m less than convinced that the latter is the lesser evil.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The man is a positive fashion icon, Frost's suit isn't much better it looks like he bought it off the peg and they didn't quite have his size.


While he's wearing a tie intended for a child


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Well, what we’re up against is the question of whether it is worse to have no deal or to sign up to something indefinitely that we don’t know the consequences of.  I’m less than convinced that the latter is the lesser evil.


In the short term there's no doubt that no-deal is going to be the worse choice by a country mile, In the long run your doubts may very well turn out to be justified.
But we (the collective we) made this choice to go down this route and now we face the Devil and the Deep Blue Sea, things not looking good for Blighty either way.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 10, 2020)

"fair" has got nothing to do with it. Its to do with respective economic clout. The eu has considerably more than the uk. As has the us and china. The uk on its own is always going to get an unequal trade deal. 
But at least well be rid of those evil polish delicatessens and czech hairdressers.


----------



## andysays (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What precedents are there for a country just accepting the all rules today and forever of a club without being a member of that club?  Is that something that eg Norway has signed up to?  It seems like a really bad idea.


I certainly don't remember anything of the sort being mentioned when it was being suggested by some that the UK should be aiming for a "Norway plus" deal, though that now seems like a lifetime ago so I could be wrong.

But it certainly sounds like they're making Johnson an offer he can't accept.


----------



## DownwardDog (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What precedents are there for a country just accepting the all rules today and forever of a club without being a member of that club?  Is that something that eg Norway has signed up to?  It seems like a really bad idea.



The UK isn't being asked to accept "all" the rules. No Freedom of Movement for a start. The UK decided to leave and to ask for a trade deal. It's not the EU's fault if England don't like the deal on offer.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> "fair" has got nothing to do with it. Its to do with respective economic clout. The eu has considerably more than the uk. As has the us and china. The uk on its own is always going to get an unequal trade deal.
> But at least well be rid of those evil polish delicatessens and czech hairdressers.


Just because the EU has more economic clout, doesn’t mean it’s worth signing up to whatever terms they see fit.  If the EU didn’t want a deal, what has been the point in all this?  And if they did want a deal, why come in with a late demand for something that is clearly unacceptable?


----------



## Winot (Dec 10, 2020)

Why not just sign up for a rolling deal with a review date every couple of years to decide whether to continue or renegotiate?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What precedents are there for a country just accepting the all rules today and forever of a club without being a member of that club?  Is that something that eg Norway has signed up to?  It seems like a really bad idea.


I don't know; this would be my question too.

I would have expected that things would work in the way Winot suggests - you agree a deal based on sticking to certain standards etc, which is constantly under review, in other words, if at any point either party wants to change those standards, then the other party can simply say that the deal is then off.

Of course this sets up a situation where the smaller party will always have the much lower power of veto, and it would probably turn out that in almost all cases the best option for the UK is to accept the EU-proposed standards, but that's just an inevitable part of deciding you want to leave the club. Which seems like a really bad idea. But the bad idea has been had already.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I don't know; this would be my question too.
> 
> I would have expected that things would work in the way Winot suggests - you agree a deal based on sticking to certain standards etc, which is constantly under review, in other words, if at any point either party wants to change those standards, then the other party can simply say that the deal is then off.
> 
> Of course this sets up a situation where the smaller party will always have the much lower power of veto, and it would probably turn out that in almost all cases the best option for the UK is to accept the EU-proposed standards, but that's just an inevitable part of deciding you want to leave the club. Which seems like a really bad idea. But the bad idea has been had already.


oh the worst ideas are yet to come


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> If only we were in the EU to influence and increase both ways.



I give it about six months before Rejoiners recycle the "Take Back Control" slogan.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

The ratchet mechanism is standard stuff . It’s at the core of WTO and NAFTA - I have not been through the details of stuff like the Japan starter one of late but it would be a fuckup if there wasn’t one.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> That's told 'em.


Certainly highlights what a colossal cock up Brexit is. Can you remind me of the amazing benefits we're all supposed to be enjoying soon.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

This is hardly a new development for any trade negotiation professional. Maybe that’s the issue


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

editor said:


> Certainly highlights what a colossal cock up Brexit is. Can you remind me of the amazing benefits we're all supposed to be enjoying soon.


we'll be living in australia
or some sort of mad max dystopian used to be the uk but it's now australia horror


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

Winot said:


> Why not just sign up for a rolling deal with a review date every couple of years to decide whether to continue or renegotiate?



Most agreements are not cast forever, there is always maintenance needed and they build in the scope for this. There is in effect a rolling agreement offered but you need to sign up first. I haven’t done this fir a while tho’ so out of touch


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

Checkmate?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Checkmate?



A transition period from the transition period to the next transition period.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

And anyway, if we do sort out a deal with the US, they will see us to the cleaners as we are the weaker party. The septics are brutal in the deals they sign. Ratchet caveats are their bread and butter


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

Wonder if Johnson spotted the arrival of _The Wild Hunt_ on his flight back to Northolt?





> *Wild Hunts* typically involve a 'soul-raving' chase led by a mythological figure escorted by a ghostly or supernatural group of hunters passing in wild pursuit. The hunters are generally the souls of the dead or ghostly dogs, sometimes fairies, Valkyries or elves.
> 
> Seeing the Wild Hunt was thought to presage some catastrophe such as war or plague, or at best the death of the one who witnessed it. People encountering the Hunt might also be abducted to the underworld or the fairy kingdom. In some instances, it was also believed that people's spirits could be pulled away during their sleep to join the cavalcade.



Always thought that _Deadwood _had something of the psychopomp about him....


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> And anyway, if we do sort out a deal with the US, they will see us to the cleaners as we are the weaker party. The septics are brutal in the deals they sign. Ratchet caveats are their bread and butter



Ratchet caveats and corporate protectionism. So many toxic clauses added behind closed doors.

This myth that leaving the EU gives us sovereignty completely ignores the reality of how closely tied up the modern world is with dodgy treaties and vested interests.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

On a parallel, interesting interview with Wolfgang Streeck which talks about the EU in general with particular focus on Germany within it, and particularly interesting I thought was the bit about why countries like Greece don't leave the EU/Euro (and why their public continue to want to stay in)


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> And anyway, if we do sort out a deal with the US, they will see us to the cleaners as we are the weaker party. The septics are brutal in the deals they sign. Ratchet caveats are their bread and butter


But what about the special relationship?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Checkmate?



Doesn't it push no deal closer?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Doesn't it push no deal closer?


In explicitly requiring a reciprocity deal to keep the planes, trains and automobiles running?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> But what about the special relationship?



A masturbatory fantasy that’s been bullshit for decades.

We have been actively fucked over by the USA since at least WW2 despite throwing money and knowledge at them. They fucked us withholding nuclear tech, the told us to jog on over Suez, our air industry bled knowledge to Boeing and the newer fighters come with so many clauses British engineers can’t work on them. Blair was convinced we’d get special treatment from the US and marched us to war but we got fuck all.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ratchet caveats and corporate protectionism. So many toxic clauses added behind closed doors.
> 
> This myth that leaving the EU gives us sovereignty completely ignores the reality of how closely tied up the modern world is with dodgy treaties and vested interests.


 
Logically, we will have less clout after full departure, theEU needs to prioritise its own survival whatever the cost. We are not getting anything which could bite them in the arse later. Johnson knows this. It’s performance art until things close


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

I didn’t even mention the very clearly racist aspects of “the special relationship”


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I didn’t even mention the very clearly racist aspects of “the special relationship”


I was taking the piss. But do expand please.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> But what about the special relationship?


Like this you mean?





__





						Redirect Notice
					





					www.google.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I was taking the piss. But do expand please.



Its hard to tell when your taking the piss because you seem pretty invested in how great Brexit is going to be.

The Anglo-Saxon Heritage aspect of the special relationship isn't tripping some alarms for you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> A masturbatory fantasy that’s been bullshit for decades.
> 
> We have been actively fucked over by the USA since at least WW2 1776 despite throwing money and knowledge at them. They fucked us withholding nuclear tech, the told us to jog on over Suez, our air industry bled knowledge to Boeing and the newer fighters come with so many clauses British engineers can’t work on them. Blair was convinced we’d get special treatment from the US and marched us to war but we got fuck all.


c4u


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Its hard to tell when your taking the piss because you seem pretty invested in how great Brexit is going to be.
> 
> The Anglo-Saxon Heritage aspect of the special relationship isn't tripping some alarms for you?


We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.


----------



## gosub (Dec 10, 2020)

U.K., EU brace for no-deal Brexit cliff as trade talks falter
					

Contingency measures look to ensure that basic air and road connectivity are maintained.




					www.axios.com


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 10, 2020)

Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on.  Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on.  Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.


Probably banned from overflying France if there are UK passengers on board.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

gosub said:


> U.K., EU brace for no-deal Brexit cliff as trade talks falter
> 
> 
> Contingency measures look to ensure that basic air and road connectivity are maintained.
> ...


Their contingency plans dont amount to much if they are not signed up to?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.



My mistake, seeing your "the EU are fucked, the EU will blink" posts in the last few pages I assumed you were a pro-Leaver but I can see your more of a "Fuck the lot of them and capitalism to" poster.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 10, 2020)

DownwardDog said:


> (...) Particularly as the EU think they'll get a better deal from the UK next year after they've had a no deal beasting.



I think the idea was that the US would have our backs and keep things non-dystopain in the event of a no-deal, which the EU would have been aware of and factored into what they were offering. Since Trump is now trickling down the drain and Biden isn’t onboard with the Bannon/Farage fuck-the-EU bandwagon we’ve been left flapping in the wind a bit.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> My mistake, seeing your "the EU are fucked, the EU will blink" posts in the last few pages I assumed you were a pro-Leaver but I can see your more of a "Fuck the lot of them and capitalism to" poster.


Its quite a lot of that mixed with a bit of resentment towards former self declared anti capitalists who loudly extolled support for the EU and asserted that this was the only acceptable position, denigrating any naysayers with smears and lies.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Its quite a lot of that mixed with a bit of resentment towards former self declared anti capitalists who loudly extolled support for the EU and asserted that this was the only acceptable position, denigrating any naysayers with smears and lies.


 
Fair enough, it can be quite a surprisingly emotional issue for some considering the rhetoric towards say Greece, around 2010-2014.

The brexit vote was top heavy racist and uses racist language to stoke the culture war but that doesn't mean all leave voters are racists, some are just very very angry at the status quo and rather oddly assume Farage has their interests at heart.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.


So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 10, 2020)

editor said:


> So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.


Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
> Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.



I don't think its known for its lack of bureaucracy either tbh.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Wow the January 1st travel ban to Europe is pretty full on.  Presume it doesn't apply to non-EU countries in Europe such as Switzerland.


Haven't checked, but Switzerland is part of the free movement area, like Norway, so quite possibly it applies there as well. Not an easily googlable answer.

The Swiss are free to make their own rules for the UK, though. Switzerland has signed a separate agreement with the UK to facilitate business travel. This is a little look at our post-Brexit future - easy movement for the rich, restricted, regulated movement for the rest of us. The consequences of leaving the free movement area are all shit. It's just a fucking shit thing to happen.

Switzerland to sign deal with UK allowing free travel for professional workers - CityAM


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
> Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.


How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.

Meanwhile there are all kinds of immediate negatives for us from withdrawal. Concrete things we can point at. And anybody wishing to influence EU policy direction from the UK has lost many of the means that were previously available to them. The UK-based organisation Compasion in World Farming is a good example of the negative effect of withdrawal in this regard - it has previously pushed through reforms of farming practices at an EU law level.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

Downing Street seem to be refusing to say either way whether they would accept the EU contingency plans, which must surely mean they see it as a real possibility that they will. So we could be in for another year of negotiations.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
> Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.


Sorry, I can't see your words for all the strawmen you've just erected there. 

Meanwhile Brexit was never a grassroots movement, but an elitist political takeover | Aditya Chakrabortty


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.
> 
> Meanwhile there are all kinds of immediate negatives for us from withdrawal. Concrete things we can point at. And anybody wishing to influence EU policy direction from the UK has lost many of the means that were previously available to them. The UK-based organisation Compasion in World Farming is a good example of the negative effect of withdrawal in this regard - it has previously pushed through reforms of farming practices at an EU law level.



Indeed, theres scope to leave the EU and hurt the EU and a left wing case for damaging the EU but we do not meet it in anyway, our politics is toxic with jingoistic right wing nastiness and its being lapped up by enough of the population to give the Conservatives an ability to do what the hell they like. 

I'm fine for voting Leave but not the way we did or with who was leading the charge. The EU for all its awfulness was something of a check on the Conservatives and when we go the gloves will be off.


----------



## editor (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How is that relevant, though? The UK leaving the EU doesn't help refugees or the Greeks. Tthe UK's record generally on refugees has been shamefully poor for a long time and all the signs are that it is about to get even worse. As a net contributor to the EU budget, the UK leaving the EU is only going to reduce any potential money pot available to go to poorer areas within the EU, so if anything the argument can be made the other way - UK withdrawing has a potentially negative effect for poorer countries within the EU, not positive.


Indeed. You've got to be really dreaming if you think Brexit is somehow going to soften the UK's stance on refugees, and make things better for them.

Given the rampant xenophobia that Brexit has stoked up, I'd say it's highly likely the UK will end up being _even more shittier_ to refugees.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

editor said:


> So you voted for something that has no benefits, only the clear catalogue of disasters that are going to hurt people, result in food shortages, less travel opportunities, restrict the arts, stop bands from touring, empowered racists and xenophobes and drain billions in never ending pointless bureaucracy? Oh, OK.


everyone who has voted has a lot to answer for


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

This is exactly the point. You don't have to be a cheerleader for the EU to be against_ this brexit_. And you have to be naive as hell ever to have thought that any other kind of brexit was possible, given who it was that was campaigning for brexit and who it is that has been politically empowered by it. This has all been very clear right from the start.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This is exactly the point. You don't have to be a cheerleader for the EU to be against_ this brexit_. And you have to be naive as hell ever to have thought that any other kind of brexit was possible, given who it was that was campaigning for brexit and has been politically empowered by it. This has all been very clear right from the start.


yes it was and no it hasn't


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well if you want to tie me to all that then you take take responsibility for all the dead Greeks? Plus the drowned refugees?
> Your beloved EU is not a benign workers paradise.


The EU isn't a workers paradise no but oddly enough most of the countries with strong employment protection rights are members of it and it does set out minimum standards which the UK has always put plenty of effort in trying to wiggle out off.
As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We have been discussing brexit here for years. Find a single post of mine extolling the benefits of brexit? Well bar giving the tories a great big kick.



Giving the Tories a great big kick into a nationalist-platform election-winning position of dominance for at least a generation? Couldve done without that, if thats all this is about


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No it hasn't



No it was quite clear what Brexit was about right from the moment UKIP started pissing out its message.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?


Ive never got a satisfactory answer to this one - anti-refugee policy was driven by nation states. The EUs attempt to broker cross-europe quota on taking refugees was quashed - by nation states.
As with that crisis the lack of an EU response to Covid has shown up its limits of power, and where nation states continue to rule. It is not a full supra-national-state (yet)


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> no it hasn't


There's proof here on Urban if you want to wind back to 2016 and look at pre-referendum posts. It was clear to plenty of posters on here that notions of a 'lexit' were a fantasy. Yet here we are nearly five years later and still the argument is made that opposing brexit is somehow cheerleading neoliberalism. It's bollocks, and always was.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2020)

MickiQ said:


> The EU isn't a workers paradise no but oddly enough most of the countries with strong employment protection rights are members of it and it does set out minimum standards which the UK has always put plenty of effort in trying to wiggle out off.
> As for the drowned refugees in the Med being the fault of the EU, Assuming the EU did not exist and that Europe was still made up of independent states how would things be different? Would Italy or Greece or Spain be rolling out the welcome wagon for them?


Workers rights are stronger where there are strong and organised trade unions . Employee rights in France and Germany are strong because of the unions standing firm from attacks by their governments attempting to strip them away due to EU budget rules . The TUC after the defeat of the miners lumped in with supporting the EU as some form of check/ protection against the Tories .


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 10, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Workers rights are stronger where there are strong and organised trade unions . Employee rights in France and Germany are strong because of the unions standing firm from attacks by their governments attempting to strip them away due to EU budget rules . The TUC after the defeat of the miners lumped in with supporting the EU as some form of check/ protection against the Tories .


Yep wouldn't argue with that, strong and organised unions contribute to  a culture where rights get accepted and thus written into law in the two most countries in the EU. Since all are equal but some are more unequal than others, those 2 countries don't want to see their own industries undercut by lower rights and hence lower costs so they foist them on the other members. They're doing this out of self-interest not the goodness of their hearts.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Giving the Tories a great big kick into a nationalist-platform election-winning position of dominance for at least a generation? Couldve done without that, if thats all this is about


The Tories have consolidated power while lurching even further to the right, with a big dose of anti-immigrant sentiment thrown in. Meanwhile, Labour has lurched back to the right. Both direct consequences of the Leave vote. We can't play the alternative history where Remain wins, but it's hard to imagine it being worse than this.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's proof here on Urban if you want to wind back to 2016 and look at pre-referendum posts. It was clear to plenty of posters on here that notions of a 'lexit' were a fantasy. Yet here we are nearly five years later and still the argument is made that opposing brexit is somehow cheerleading neoliberalism. It's bollocks, and always was.


I reckon a lot of people arguing for lexit pre referendum were doing so under what they thought was a safe assumption that brexit would never come to pass and their theories would never be tested.

But it turns out that it did come to pass, and next year perhaps we can see the real world consequences of voting in favour of brexit. That said, I expect the number of "lexit" voters was probably vanishingly small and had no impact on the final outcome, and similarly the "I'm not voting either way out of principle" brigade.


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I was under the impression that the plan was to hang him pretty much on day one.


And hopefully a short drop rather than a long drop


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> the kind of chaos that hurts the poorest the hardest.


It's also the kind of chaos that can make some people a shiteload of money, as I understand it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> It's also the kind of chaos that can make some people a shiteload of money, as I understand it.



Most of them firm staunch brexiteers in cabinet and the media 🤔


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

Regarding the political and social environment precipitating and resulting from Brexit, it's worth considering the research.

This is a study of 50,000 articles about immigration from 2011-2016 in The Guardian, The Telegraph and The Sun.  Long story short, it definitely shows a few important points: firstly, all newspapers increasingly concentrated on EU immigrants over their previous focus, which was "illegal" immigrants.  Secondly, they transferred their stigmas of "illegal" immigrants over to EU immigrants and Eastern European immigrants in particular, calling on orientalist stereotypes to do so.  They also managed to tie EU membership and the Calais crisis together.  There are lots of other things in that paper that I could discuss, but for this purpose, that's the meat.

However, evidence that newspapers did this is not quite the same as evidence that this was the critical point in people's minds.  This is a study that looks at how people understood the relationship between Britain and Europe during the critical period.  It also found "Eastern vs Western Europe" as a theme, which indicates to me that some of that newspaper work stuck.  However, just as importantly, it found three completely different representations in peoples' minds of what constituted the relationship.  These representations were strongly linked to geography and social status, meaning that it isn't as straightforward as "immigration=bad".  There were even two very different leaver representations: one of "global Britain vs little Europe" that had an internationist bent, and one of "Europe as cultural threat" that was a more nationist concern of having Britishness overwhelmed by Europe.

Finally, this study considers how remainers have understood Brexit post-referendum.  It makes many fascinating points, particularly about the impact of a neoliberal ideology.  However, I particularly want to draw out that Remainers were shocked at the fact that there was a large public out there that they had previously _failed to recognise_.   This has resonance because there is a body of work saying that misrecognition/non-recognition of identity from the powerful to the powerless is a form of political violence that tends to precipitate action.  Given that remainers are generally in socially more powerful categories than leavers, this all lends support to the theory (to me at least) that Brexit was -- in some part, at least -- a political kick by the masses against those with higher levels of social and cultural capital.  To this end, it was nothing to do with racism or immigration or even anti-EU sentiment at all; just a chance to scream into the void.

(ETA: I note that the latter two papers are not claiming that their study populations are _representative_ of the public at large, just that they can draw _illustrative representations_ from the interviews with the study participants.  I'm being as careful as I can to make sure this doesn't affect what I'm saying above)


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

Well yeah


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There's proof here on Urban if you want to wind back to 2016 and look at pre-referendum posts. It was clear to plenty of posters on here that notions of a 'lexit' were a fantasy. Yet here we are nearly five years later and still the argument is made that opposing brexit is somehow cheerleading neoliberalism. It's bollocks, and always was.


The sort of brexit we have now was not the only one that might have been and it is dishonest to insist as you dothat it was inevitable. Many different exits could have taken place, remaining in the eea, joining efta, etc. We're here now because of Theresa May's red lines. There could have been a deal. And to be here now looking at the transition period ending in no deal is a matter of choice rather than a matter of inevitability


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2020)

Didn't take much notice but I'm sure I saw an article that some in Labour blame partly blame themselves for the situation now I presume because if Labour had backed May's proposal it would have got through.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Didn't take much notice but I'm sure I saw an article that some in Labour blame partly blame themselves for the situation now I presume because if Labour had backed May's proposal it would have got through.


There are lots of alternative actions Labour could have taken at various stages, right from the start, tbh. At the point where May was pushing her proposal, Labour could have formally backed the Common Market 2 proposal (aka 'soft brexit'), which might well then have got through. I think May would still have fallen and we'd still have been headed for an early election, but it would have been an early election with a soft brexit done and the Tories still at war with themselves. 

Labour ended up taking the blame for the brexit chaos when they weren't in power at any point, the referendum wasn't their idea, and none of the attempted deals was their idea. They played the whole thing catastrophically badly.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2020)

*No 10 to ‘look closely’ at EU contingency plans but signal Johnson not backing down on fish*


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The sort of brexit we have now was not the only one that might have been and it is dishonest to insist as you dothat it was inevitable. Many different exits could have taken place, remaining in the eea, joining efta, etc. We're here now because of Theresa May's red lines. There could have been a deal. And to be here now looking at the transition period ending in no deal is a matter of choice rather than a matter of inevitability


Speaking with leavers up here in the NE, the overriding opinion seems to be that the ballot said leave or stay and they wanted to leave at any cost. Deal or no deal. Shitshow or no shitshow. To them, arguing about whether the deal we get is the deal that was promised is immaterial. In fact, accepting a deal that compromises their idea of 'sovereignty' is worse in their eyes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The sort of brexit we have now was not the only one that might have been and it is dishonest to insist as you dothat it was inevitable. Many different exits could have taken place, remaining in the eea, joining efta, etc. We're here now because of Theresa May's red lines. There could have been a deal. And to be here now looking at the transition period ending in no deal is a matter of choice rather than a matter of inevitability


A tory-led brexit was always going to be a shitshow, one in which the tories would attempt a race to the bottom and people would be fucked over. It was clear that this is what the pro-brexit tories wanted from the start. How do I know this? Because they said so. I know you're contractually obliged to disagree with me about everything, but that is the point I was making. Brexit as negotiated by the tories following a nationalism- and xenophobia-filled referendum campaign was always a really fucking bad idea, and none of this should come as any kind of a surprise.

It's not dishonest to say this now because I was saying it five years ago, as were plenty of others.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> Speaking with leavers up here in the NE, the overriding opinion seems to be that the ballot said leave or stay and they wanted to leave at any cost. Deal or no deal. Shitshow or no shitshow. To them, arguing about whether the deal we get is the deal that was promised is immaterial. In fact, accepting a deal that compromises their idea of 'sovereignty' is worse in their eyes.


no deal or whatever the hell deal they get through here is the best outcome. 

any Norway, EEA, BINO etc wouldve only happened with Labour support which wouldve left hardocre remainers and leavers both incensed and we'd never hear the end of it

this way it is what it always was: a hard right Leave referendum, won, and carried through. it is what it is


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A tory-led brexit was always going to be a shitshow, one in which the tories would attempt a race to the bottom and people would be fucked over. It was clear that this is what the pro-brexit tories wanted from the start. How do I know this? Because they said so. I know you're contractually obliged to disagree with me about everything, but that is the point I was making. Brexit as negotiated by the tories following a nationalism- and xenophobia-filled referendum campaign was always a really fucking bad idea, and none of this should come as any kind of a surprise.
> 
> It's not dishonest to say this now because I was saying it five years ago, as were plenty of others.


when i say 'no it hasn't been clear right from the start' it is because it has not been clear right from the start. there was, if you'll care to recall, great confusion about what the may government's position was going to be - indeed no one knew until she revealed her red lines.  so while you may have felt that this was how it was always going to go, that isn't frankly any proof of your actual inevitability.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> when i say 'no it hasn't been clear right from the start' it is because it has not been clear right from the start. there was, if you'll care to recall, great confusion about what the may government's position was going to be - indeed no one knew until she revealed her red lines.  so while you may have felt that this was how it was always going to go, that isn't frankly any proof of your actual inevitability.


Says the fellow who spent quite some time confidently insisting that Brexit was in fact never going to happen, because it couldn't happen. Right up until it did.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Says the fellow who spent quite some time confidently insisting that Brexit was in fact never going to happen, because it couldn't happen. Right up until it did.


i don't think you've caught the gist of my argument which was more to do with the poor quality of our politicians rather than 'it's never going to happen because it can't happen'. but i was in good company:









						Is Brexit actually going to happen?
					

IS BREXIT ACTUALLY GOING TO HAPPEN?    I dont think Brexit is going to happen. The forces who don't want it to happen are too great.  Opposed are the majority of the british political establishment, the Civil Service, the education and arts institutions,  the City of London, large corporate...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 10, 2020)

53 months and counting since the Brexit vote, and the political leaders of UK and EU are yet to agree on what trade and travel rules the rest of us have less than three weeks to prepare for!

Blooming marvellous.  Who votes these idiots into power anyway?


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

This helps. Sort of.








						Everything you need to know about day one of Brexit - Politics.co.uk
					

Oh sweet Christ not Brexit again. Yes, you will never escape. It will never be over. Decades from now, as your wrinkled fingers grasp the remote for your 3D holo-viewer, the main news item will still be about Brexit. At least we got a break during the coronavirus emergency. Yep, say what you...




					www.politics.co.uk
				



Explains the almighty spidersweb of IT projects being cobbled together to deal with our exporting things next month.

‘Like jenga but going all the way up to the sky and made entirely of knives’.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> This helps. Sort of.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when it mentions acronyms the only one you need to know is 'fubar' which will be applicable to everything next year


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

"Farage under beams and rubble."


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> "Farage under beams and rubble."


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> Speaking with leavers up here in the NE, the overriding opinion seems to be that the ballot said leave or stay and they wanted to leave at any cost. Deal or no deal. Shitshow or no shitshow. To them, arguing about whether the deal we get is the deal that was promised is immaterial. In fact, accepting a deal that compromises their idea of 'sovereignty' is worse in their eyes.


i don't care whether the deal that was promised is the deal we get. my point was that the situation we find ourselves in now, for better or worse, was not inevitable. perhaps leavers in the north-east and elsewhere will be happy under the new situation. perhaps not. but i think we're certainly in for some rather vitriolic times ahead, because there will be a fuck of a lot of people who are unhappy with the new buccaneering britain and quite likely to let it show.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Why did they take the decision to not extend the transition period a bit when it became apparent that there was a global pandemic ? I can’t remember now, was that just because Boris thought he’d look a bit weak ?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 10, 2020)

All you gloomy chops seem to have forgotten this...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> Why did they take the decision to not extend the transition period a bit when it became apparent that there was a global pandemic ? I can’t remember now, was that just because Boris thought he’d look a bit weak ?


My impression is they've deliberately avoided the EU Labyrinth by imposing and sticking to these self set deadlines.

Also if they're going for a no deal crash out might as well get on with it asap


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2020)

brogdale said:


> All you gloomy chops seem to have forgotten this...
> 
> View attachment 242712



He had a tenner on it didn't he


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

two sheds said:


> He had a tenner on it didn't he


yeh dominic cummings ran down to the bookies on victoria street and put it on. i wonder if he gave the slip to abdpj


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> My impression is they've deliberately avoided the EU Labyrinth by imposing and sticking to these self set deadlines.
> 
> Also if they're going for a no deal crash out might as well get on with it asap


idk what you mean by the labryrinth.
You think they always pretty much intended to get no deal and spend the next 50 years in boring never ending trade negotiations? i dont think that's likely, seems more like they expected johnny foreigner to roll over and do whatever Great Britain demands with their fish.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> idk what you mean by the labryrinth.


Have you ever tried to do anything involving EU regulators or authorities?  Labyrinth is exactly the right word.  They’ll happy just keep going without any end in sight unless you set hard deadlines.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Just seems monumentally stupid to be trying to sort out the massive logistics of a new world of customs rules whilst you can’t even sit in a room with people you don’t like with.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> idk what you mean by the labryrinth.
> You think they always pretty much intended to get no deal and spend the next 50 years in boring never ending trade negotiations? i dont think that's likely, seems more like they expected johnny foreigner to roll over and do whatever Great Britain demands with their fish.


Not sure they're as calculating as that. Cummings' tactics never seemed to look beyond tomorrow's headlines. Not sure Johnson can even be said to have tactics of his own. He's always been clueless about the detail (not much of an Ideas man either, tbf), so why would he change now? And as you say, 'no deal' is really no such thing. It's a postponed deal with months of chaos as a prelude.


----------



## planetgeli (Dec 10, 2020)

Not extending the deadline was 100% appeasement of Brexit wing loons in the Tory party. And fuck the consequences.


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Nobody’s got the energy for an entirely unnecessary clusterfuck of a brexit right now, even the loo roll hoarders will be tired.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

planetgeli said:


> Not extending the deadline was 100% appeasement of Brexit wing loons in the Tory party. And fuck the consequences.


While I think you're right, the pandemic also provides a degree of cover. The brexit fiasco probably isn't the overriding current affairs issue for most people right now, while any punitive travel restrictions coming in on 1 Jan due to no deal won't be felt immediately because who's got foreign trips planned atm?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

bimble said:


> idk what you mean by the labryrinth.


IIRC its how Yanis Varoufakis described the attempts to negotiate with the EU - labyrinthine  - though now i think about it I might have made it up!


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

Lexit was to my mind always first and foremost about Sovereignty, so on that score at least theres something to cheer about


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> IIRC its how Yanis Varoufakis described the attempts to negotiate with the EU - labyrinthine  - though now i think about it I might have made it up!











						The Ins and Outs of the Labyrinth - dooneyscafe.com
					

It's a flash-mob Greek tragedy. Stan Persky reviews "Adults in the Room," the political memoir that tells you almost everything you need to know about the EU.




					dooneyscafe.com


----------



## bimble (Dec 10, 2020)

Yeah it hurts my brain even trying to imagine how 28 countries are supposed to agree on anything let alone negotiate as one. The zoom calls must be hell. I think they’ll be more than happy to not drag it out.


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> my point was that the situation we find ourselves in now, for better or worse, was not inevitable.


I profoundly disagree. My opinion is that a no deal is exactly what the architects of brexit want so they can make a shite load of money off it. The people who voted for it, and then who further enabled it by voting the tories in, are completely irrelevant to the people engineering this no deal situation. They were used and now will be cast aside.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> I profoundly disagree. My opinion is that a no deal is exactly what the architects of brexit want so they can make a shite load of money off it. The people who voted for it, and then who further enabled it by voting the tories in, are completely irrelevant to the people engineering this no deal situation. They were used and now will be cast aside.


yeh obvs they'll be cast aside. but my point is simply that all manner of other brexits could have happened and the path we happen to have taken from 23/6/16 to today was not the only one possible - things could have ended up rather differently if eg cameron hadn't run off, if the labour party had acted other than they did, if the election of 2017 (or 2019) had led to a different result.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 10, 2020)

There was never any hunger for a sensible deal with the EU. Never


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh obvs they'll be cast aside. but my point is simply that all manner of other brexits could have happened and the path we happen to have taken from 23/6/16 to today was not the only one possible - things could have ended up rather differently if eg cameron hadn't run off, if the labour party had acted other than they did, if the election of 2017 (or 2019) had led to a different result.



Of course other brexits were an option. They were just not an option that had any chance of making it onto the table.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> I profoundly disagree. My opinion is that a no deal is exactly what the architects of brexit want so they can make a shite load of money off it. The people who voted for it, and then who further enabled it by voting the tories in, are completely irrelevant to the people engineering this no deal situation. They were used and now will be cast aside.



There are certainly those who've wanted a no-deal outcome and tried to engineer it, whether that's out of financial interest or political lunacy or both, and at times they've definitely been able to nudge events in that direction.  Crispin Odey and Jacob Rees-Mogg are probably pretty satisfied right now.  But I don't believe no-deal was the government's plan all along or that this outcome was inevitable.  Theresa May could have decided against trying to out-UKIP UKIP in 2016-7 and tried to forge a consensus around what was then referred to as a soft Brexit, for a start, or Parliament voted through some variant of May's deal, in which case the UK would be out with a deal (thin, but a lot better than what's coming) by now.  IMO it's arrogance, delusions of grandeur, a complete inability to face facts, systemic dishonesty, crass stupidity and monumental incompetence that have brought us to this point.

There are a lot of shouty types on social media this evening - not all bots! - with union-flag avatars crowing about how people wanted a no-deal all along.  I wonder whether people who think that now will still think it in six months' time, and if not who they'll be shouting at/about then...


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 10, 2020)

The big problem was squaring any kind of deal with the promises that were made and the fact it would be damaging - not the easiest deal in history or the sunlit uplands. 

No deal and blaming the EU was the only way out.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 10, 2020)

As of tomorrow the oven ready deal will have spent 365 days in _checks notes_ the microwave at _checks again_ gas mark four.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 10, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> The big problem was squaring any kind of deal with the promises that were made and the fact it would be damaging - not the easiest deal in history or the sunlit uplands.
> 
> No deal and blaming the EU was the only way out.



They've backed themselves into that corner now, yes.

This is another sense in which the government's 'strategy' since 2017 has been to keep kicking the can down the road and delay the moment at which promises and reality have to collide.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 10, 2020)

mauvais said:


> As of tomorrow the oven ready deal will have spent 365 days in _checks notes_ the microwave at _checks again_ gas mark four.


The oven ready deal is sticking our heads in the stove abs turning on the gas


----------



## agricola (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> I profoundly disagree. My opinion is that a no deal is exactly what the architects of brexit want so they can make a shite load of money off it. The people who voted for it, and then who further enabled it by voting the tories in, are completely irrelevant to the people engineering this no deal situation. They were used and now will be cast aside.



Perhaps, though I think the intention of the no-deal crowd is to make a shite load of money, but over the long term - imperil enough people in the UK with an economic collapse and they'll quite quickly get people working for 25% - 50% less than they are now, with similar declines in conditions, workplace rights etc as loads of people fight for jobs.   

To do this the people who voted for it *are* the people who are required to do the work - or "make Britain competitive again" as they will doubt cry - and the government will probably spend the next election saying _yes, Brexit was savage but look at all the jobs that have come here since, the working class is now working again, outside toilets are less prone to COVID_ etc etc ad infinitum. This is basically what Raab etc put in their little book of criticisms about a decade ago.


----------



## tommers (Dec 10, 2020)

UK to deny asylum to refugees passing through 'safe' third country
					

Immigration rule will also prevent migrants from making a claim in UK territorial waters




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

agricola said:


> To do this the people who voted for it *are* the people who are required to do the work


Worth remembering the majority of leave voters were older wealthier tories


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

tommers said:


> UK to deny asylum to refugees passing through 'safe' third country
> 
> 
> Immigration rule will also prevent migrants from making a claim in UK territorial waters
> ...



Immigration law experts have said this could render the new policy “pointless” and would most likely delay asylum applications and leave refugees in limbo in the UK. Colin Yeo, a leading immigration barrister with expertise in asylum law, wrote on Twitter: “The policy is pointless because the govt has negotiated no such return agreements, so all it does is delay decisions on all claims, which is cruel to genuine refugees, and delay removal of non genuine cases.”

cunts


----------



## tommers (Dec 10, 2020)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though I think the intention of the no-deal crowd is to make a shite load of money, but over the long term - imperil enough people in the UK with an economic collapse and they'll quite quickly get people working for 25% - 50% less than they are now, with similar declines in conditions, workplace rights etc as loads of people fight for jobs.
> 
> To do this the people who voted for it *are* the people who are required to do the work - or "make Britain competitive again" as they will doubt cry - and the government will probably spend the next election saying _yes, Brexit was savage but look at all the jobs that have come here since, the working class is now working again, outside toilets are less prone to COVID_ etc etc ad infinitum. This is basically what Raab etc put in their little book of criticisms about a decade ago.



In order to make Britain competitive in the new difficult world we will, unfortunately, have to amend the maternity and paternity leave regulations and reduce the number of holidays available to our workers.


----------



## realitybites (Dec 10, 2020)

Surely the Tories are working something out after all these months of half arse negotiations? Or else with this deal quickly becoming a no deal — How different, if at all any different will it be from what Farage was spouting on about and would of brokered in an instant?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Have you ever tried to do anything involving EU regulators or authorities?  Labyrinth is exactly the right word.  They’ll happy just keep going without any end in sight unless you set hard deadlines.


I have been involved with EU product standards, directives and CE marking, mainly in the electrical area. In my experience they made us up our game to continue supplying in the market. The standards improved our products, made them perform better, and made them safer.  

It bothers me UK Gov seems intent on creating "UKCA" standards, I would prefer to continue with EU standards.


----------



## tendril (Dec 10, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I wonder whether people who think that now will still think it in six months' time, and if not who they'll be shouting at/about then...


I sincerely hope they change their minds. I forsee a groundswell to rejoin. Whether there will be the political appetite for it is another matter. If there is serious money to be made I reckon we will rejoin. But I predict a period of gross British poverty, both financially and politically before then


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I have been involved with EU product standards, directives and CE marking, mainly in the electrical area. In my experience they made us up our game to continue supplying in the market. The standards improved our products, made them perform better, and made them safer.
> 
> It bothers me UK Gov seems intent on creating "UKCA" standards, I would prefer to continue with EU standards.


It is fair to say that this experience does not necessarily apply to all industries.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 10, 2020)

Worth remembering the mighty EP Thompson


----------



## Winot (Dec 10, 2020)

Sounds great.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

tendril said:


> I sincerely hope they change their minds. I forsee a groundswell to rejoin. Whether there will be the political appetite for it is another matter. If there is serious money to be made I reckon we will rejoin. But I predict a period of gross British poverty, both financially and politically before then


Forces of Rejoin are a certainty and will do more damage to Labour than to any other party. Europe will hang around the Labour parties neck as it did the Tories up to the referendum. For years and years to come. Less a groundswell and more of a rump though i think


----------



## weltweit (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It is fair to say that this experience does not necessarily apply to all industries.


I would be interested to know which sectors you are thinking of?

For my former field, industrial electrical and electronics, a CE mark will continue to be required to carry on supply to the EU.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 10, 2020)

Labyrinth applies particularly to the EU head tables Machiavellian negotiating goals and methods and not about standards.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I would be interested to know which sectors you are thinking of?
> 
> For my former field, industrial electrical and electronics, a CE mark will continue to be required to carry on supply to the EU.


The financial sector, where the Euros are obsessed with fair value accounting even where there is no readily tradable commodity, because they are neoliberal to the core.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Worth remembering the majority of leave voters were older wealthier tories




No no, the media tells me its *entirely *the fault of Nothern Labour voters please ignore those big old swathes of blue in the South.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 10, 2020)

Initially at least the European move to CE marking proved a block on US and far eastern competitors who seemed slow to take note of the new requirements. So a barrier to entry. Product standards were generated by committee members selected from the participating companies so they were usually generated to levels which those companies themselves could comply. 

As to the barriers to entry, the significant far eastern and US competitors soon got the message and produced products that could be both CE marked and UL listed, so as a barrier they were only short term.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 10, 2020)

kabbes said:


> The financial sector, where the Euros are obsessed with fair value accounting even where there is no readily tradable commodity, because they are neoliberal to the core.


Oh well, I don't know much about the financial sector.
Are they asking you to do things in the UK that they don't do in Germany?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 10, 2020)

As I understand it having to stick to EU regulations has had a significantly positive effect on the UK environment in the last 30 odd years. Unfortunately I can't find any bloody figures for it just some light fluff.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 10, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Oh well, I don't know much about the financial sector.
> Are they asking you to do things in the UK that they don't do in Germany?


To answer that would require more tedium than you can possibly imagine


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Worth remembering the mighty EP Thompson
> 
> View attachment 242739


Be interested to know what percentage of people from the UK visited Europe in 2019 compared to 1973. The meaning of foreign travel has changed a lot in 50 years.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to know what percentage of people from the UK visited Europe in 2019 compared to 1973. The meaning of foreign travel has changed a lot in 50 years.


It's changed a lot in ten months.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to know what percentage of people from the UK visited Europe in 2019 compared to 1973. The meaning of foreign travel has changed a lot in 50 years.


I don't mean to have a dig, but that sort of use of "Europe" always bugs me. Britain, England, Scotland, Wales Ireland we are all in Europe, we are European countries. You could have said visited the European continent, or the continent.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 10, 2020)

Raheem said:


> It's changed a lot in ten months.


Of course, which is why I didn't say 2020. But a class-based analysis that depends on whether or not people take foreign holidays that may have made some sense in 1973 makes little sense today.


----------



## gosub (Dec 10, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course, which is why I didn't say 2020. But a class-based analysis that depends on whether or not people take foreign holidays that may have made some sense in 1973 makes little sense today.


What did you do this summer?


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

Mordaunt goes through the looking-glass and down a rabbit hole | John Crace
					

For the second time in a week, Michael Gove’s understudy was sent out with nothing new to say




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 11, 2020)

One of the deadlock issues is, changes to trade, financial and environmental laws and such matters that two sides agree to now, will be changed in the future by the EU bureaucracy, and Britain will have to agree to these changes or negotiate agreements or face some consequences. So there is going to be continuous negotiations in the future about trade relations and things such as food and environmental standards. That is inevitable, Britain from outside the EU will have to negotiate trade and other relations forever. If Britain were in the EU, then Britain would have had to negotiate within the EU as they make changes in the bureaucracy.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course, which is why I didn't say 2020. But a class-based analysis that depends on whether or not people take foreign holidays that may have made some sense in 1973 makes little sense today.


This is done a bit one of the papers I linked to above.  Young, London-based participants certainly saw Europe like this and it was a key focus of the way they talked about Europe.  Other groups spoke a bit about liking to have a few weeks in the sun but rapidly moved on from that to other issues.  I guess that not unreasonably, they took the view that a couple of weeks in the sun could be had whether they were in the EU or not.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

I know this may not be original or witty but each day I wake up and am instantly agog at what a bunch of arseholes we have _seem_ to have nominated to run the show.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> I know this may not be original or witty but each day I wake up and am instantly agog at what a bunch of arseholes we have _seem_ to have nominated to run the show.


I find it's more like waking up after a night on the lash and thinking all's well for a few moments until the utter clusterfuck that's been made of the exit and the virus rises up in my consciousness like r'lyeh rising from a convulsed sea


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

Canada or Australia? Giveaway CANZUK cunts


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

tendril said:


> Of course other brexits were an option. They were just not an option that had any chance of making it onto the table.


it's like some people are utterly invested in this everything was always going to be like this. I don't know why because it's complete tosh. Sure, the route taken has obvs ended up here: but none of this was predestined. I've identified some points where events could have easily been different, and I'll give you another - if the lib dems hadn't broken last autumn and decided to vote for a ge.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> it's like some people are utterly invested in this everything was always going to be like this. I don't know why because it's complete shit. Sure, the route taken has obvs ended up here: but none of this was predestined. I've identified some points where events could have easily been different, and I'll give you another - if the lib dems hadn't broken last autumn and decided to vote for a ge.


the libdems, tinge and SNP swung the vote against a customs union - which failed by 3 votes








						Soft Brexiters blame referendum supporters for Commons deadlock
					

Independent Group, Lib Dems and SNP fail to back customs union as it falls by three votes




					www.theguardian.com
				




key moment


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Be interested to know what percentage of people from the UK visited Europe in 2019 compared to 1973. The meaning of foreign travel has changed a lot in 50 years.


Obviously more people go abroad on holiday these days but I'm not sure that everyone shares the same 'meaning 'of foreign travel in any case.  Thompson is talking about the middle class and yes its a caricature. However a glance at a lot of the middle class continuity remain postings in social media or in papers suggests that this caricature is still alive and kicking tbh. Take the panic over brie for example.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Obviously more people go abroad on holiday these days but I'm not sure that everyone shares the same 'meaning 'of foreign travel in any case.  Thompson is talking about the middle class and yes its a caricature. However a glance at a lot of the middle class continuity remain postings in social media or in papers suggests that this caricature is still alive and kicking tbh. Take the panic over brie for example.



I can't seem to find much data on income levels but this does suggest some truth to the stereotype of huge numbers of working class now bugger off to Spain. For which I can't blame em the weather's more reliable and UK holidays are expensive tbh. Crappy public transport to.





There's also the short weekend stag break industry which is annoyingly large considering the environmental impact of flying.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the libdems, tinge and SNP swung the vote against a customs union - which failed by 3 votes
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yep



> The Lib Dem Norman Lamb, who had urged his party to back a compromise, said he was furious with the result. “I am so deeply distressed. I am ashamed to be a member of this parliament,” he said. “We have failed in our responsibility today. There has been far too much posturing and intransigence, including from my own party.”
> 
> Lamb said he believed the lack of compromise had pushed the UK closer to a no-deal exit. “It may now be too late,” he said. “I don’t hold out much hope now. There is a very real chance we will crash out. We have failed twice now and failed because of people who broadly support a customs union not being willing to back it.”


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

Ain’t no pragmatism in the heart of the government


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

As David Coverdale might have said


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

The poodle haired visionary


----------



## teuchter (Dec 11, 2020)

Seems a bit like the argument being made here is that no, it wasn't foolish to support Brexit because it wasn't inevitable that it would end in a chaotic crash-out. That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit where we'd be in a customs union tied tightly to all the EU rules and so on. So, if that was the outcome envisaged by those who supported Brexit, what was the actual point of Brexit again?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

UK and EU say no-deal Brexit is now most likely outcome
					

PM says no deal would be ‘wonderful’ as it emerges France and Germany rebuffed overtures




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> the libdems, tinge and SNP swung the vote against a customs union - which failed by 3 votes
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes they should have compromised and backed the CU option. However that doesn’t mean it would have happened. It was an indicative vote. May would have been subject to the same pressures from within her party that lead to her downfall.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit


it wasnt - there are public polls on urban - loads wanted a No Deal and loads wanted a Hard Brexit


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Why not just sign up for a rolling deal with a review date every couple of years to decide whether to continue or renegotiate?



Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants. 

So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.

Seems a no-brainer.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

That’s how FTA operates innit


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants.
> 
> So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.
> 
> Seems a no-brainer.


The terms wont be acceptable to the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The terms wont be acceptable to the UK.


The European Union's unconditional surrender will be signed at luneberg heath


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Yes they should have compromised and backed the CU option. However that doesn’t mean it would have happened. It was an indicative vote. May would have been subject to the same pressures from within her party that lead to her downfall.



If the indicative vote had won be a couple of votes it seems pretty likely that any subsequent binding vote on keeping the CU would have failed. Weeks and months of frothing about 'betrayal' from the swivel-eyed wing of the press, which is most of the press these days, would have been the death of it.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The European Union's unconditional surrender will be signed at luneberg heath


Was this the dream that Boris awoke to? Soon punctured (as will be his career shortly).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Thinking more about this. Isn’t the EU proposal in effect a rolling agreement with the right to terminate at any point if the terms change? The UK has the right to back out and trade on WTO terms at any point it wants.
> 
> So as David Gauke said yesterday, the UK is facing a choice of WTO tariffs now or agree to a deal with the option of WTO tariffs in the future if things change in a way it does not like.
> 
> Seems a no-brainer.



More like take WTO terms now, come crawling back on even worse terms six months down the line when Johnson has given up and fucked off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> More like take WTO terms now, come crawling back on even worse terms six months down the line when Johnson has given up and fucked off.


* rejoining the eu

take the euro
no veto
boris johnson's head on a spike

at least we'd willingly hand over the wretched johnson to meet his end at the hands of the executioner of strasbourg or brussels


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> * rejoining the eu
> 
> take the euro
> no veto
> ...



British spikes for British traitors


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> * rejoining the eu
> 
> take the euro
> no veto
> ...


I think the French will demand Kent too.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2020)

The Euro thing is the main reason there's almost zero prospect of the UK ever rejoining the EU -- the Euro is fucking awful and any government would be absolutely mad to entertain joining it. It will never happen. Had a sweet deal being in the EU without the Euro obviously, from the pov of capitalism


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think the French will demand Kent too.


no one will want it after it becomes the latrine of britain


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think the French will demand Kent too.



That will be difficult. Pretending we wouldn't have let it go for nothing I mean.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

It’s a Hiroo Onoda style deal we want

( the Japanese solider who spent half a century in the jungle refusing to accept that Japan had surrendered)


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

The coming Trump style eh?


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Seems a bit like the argument being made here is that no, it wasn't foolish to support Brexit because it wasn't inevitable that it would end in a chaotic crash-out. That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit where we'd be in a customs union tied tightly to all the EU rules and so on. So, if that was the outcome envisaged by those who supported Brexit, what was the actual point of Brexit again?



To decouple from the EU, (a separate thing to the Single Market) one in which the EUrozone countries have and had quorum.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 11, 2020)

My understanding is no deal means no border in the Irish sea.
Back to sorting out the land border then.
So how are the technological solutions coming along I wonder.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Seems a bit like the argument being made here is that no, it wasn't foolish to support Brexit because it wasn't inevitable that it would end in a chaotic crash-out. That suggests that the argument is that it made sense to support Brexit on the basis that it would quite likely lead to a very soft Brexit where we'd be in a customs union tied tightly to all the EU rules and so on. So, if that was the outcome envisaged by those who supported Brexit, what was the actual point of Brexit again?


that's certainly not the argument i've been making, which has been in contrast to lbj's 'this was inevitable' that other outcomes could easily have occurred, ranging from an actual brexit deal to a second referendum.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

philosophical said:


> My understanding is no deal means no border in the Irish sea.
> Back to sorting out the land border then.
> So how are the technological solutions coming along I wonder.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> that's certainly not the argument i've been making, which has been in contrast to lbj's 'this was inevitable' that other outcomes could easily have occurred, ranging from an actual brexit deal to a second referendum.


The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?


not here i hope


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Is this going to bounce around for decades like Scargills “ yeh but he should have put it to a vote” ?



Yep, look like it.  Except heard dark mutterings from your average remainer down the pub types that there shouldn't have been a vote at all


----------



## flypanam (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think the French will demand Kent too.


Could just offer them Bexley?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

flypanam said:


> Could just offer them Bexley?


Boris head plus seamless market access, 50% of the fish plus they get Eltham.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)




----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.



Apologies if this article was linked to earlier up , but you're getting quite close to Owen Jones' argument there :




			
				Guardian headline said:
			
		

> *Hard remainers wouldn't accept a soft Brexit. Now we're all paying the price*
> *Anything other than stopping Brexit was written off as both disastrous for the country and morally untenable *






			
				Owen Jones said:
			
		

> None of this was inevitable. Don’t listen to me; heed the words of Peter Mandelson instead, who has declared that this is “the price the rest of us in the pro-EU camp will pay for trying, in the years following 2016, to reverse the referendum decision rather than achieve the least damaging form of Brexit”.
> Much too late. The price that will be paid over a generation or more due to a failure to unite around a compromise is steep indeed.



Mandelson FFS!!


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The remainers could have recognized the result and compromised. Instead that debacle about the peoples vote just polarised options more.


Wait - this catastrophic fuck up is somehow_ the remainers fault?_

Absolutely fucking priceless.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 11, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> View attachment 242878



The government's probably already got some kind of "British Food for British People" campaign in the works - after all, who would complain about food shortages when there's plenty of tasty peas and carrots around? Snooty North London elites who say they can't bear to be without their fancy foreign "tomatoes," that's who.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Yay! Lobster for all.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Apologies if this article was linked to earlier up , but you're getting quite close to Owen Jones' argument there :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not often that cunt Mandelson has self awareness.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yay! Lobster for all.



We need a break-off claws.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Wait - this catastrophic fuck up is somehow_ the remainers fault?_
> 
> Absolutely fucking priceless.


yes, the man who decided to call the referendum was a remainer and he called it in the hubristic belief that the result would be remain: then he scuttled off, tail between his legs


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> The government's probably already got some kind of "British Food for British People" campaign in the works - after all, who would complain about food shortages when there's plenty of tasty peas and carrots around? Snooty North London elites who say they can't bear to be without their fancy foreign "tomatoes," that's who.


cue 'forage for britain' campaign


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

editor said:


> Wait - this catastrophic fuck up is somehow_ the remainers fault?_
> 
> Absolutely fucking priceless.



In terms of _tactical _failures at least (post-2016 in particular), I think Owen Jone's article (I linked to it just above your post) has some merit.


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, the man who decided to call the referendum was a remainer and he called it in the hubristic belief that the result would be remain: then he scuttled off, tail between his legs


And the people who voted for it?


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

I'm more or less 'new' to this thread -- it's grown over 30 pages since I was last on it. I'm probably going to have to stick around, with all that's going on just now  

Just on a need-to-know basis , and to get additional perspectives than Guardian/BBC ones  ....

But one thing a lot of former remain voters and former Brexit voters can surely agree on is that Brexit is fucking boring .....


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2020)

I wonder if we'll see an expansion in the British wine industry -- given the enormous levels of consumption I don't think it's realistic to imagine the UK being able to supply its domestic demand for wine for at least a decade, but I do anticipate it will become more and more normal to see it, buy it, drink it.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yay! Lobster for all.



"With full control of British waters, there will be a Victory Lobster available once a year for a full sixth of the population!"


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I wonder if we'll see an expansion in the British wine industry -- given the enormous levels of consumption I don't think it's realistic to imagine the UK being able to supply its domestic demand for wine for at least a decade, but I do anticipate it will become more and more normal to see it, buy it, drink it.


I hope not. British wine is mostly really bad. The UK is the second biggest importer of wine in the world, just behind the US. No way it could ever supply domestic demand. There's a reason we developed a beer and cider culture.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I wonder if we'll see an expansion in the British wine industry -- given the enormous levels of consumption I don't think it's realistic to imagine the UK being able to supply its domestic demand for wine for at least a decade, but I do anticipate it will become more and more normal to see it, buy it, drink it.


English white wine sells for a lot. The US love it. Very weather dependant though. Global warming will help.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

editor said:


> And the people who voted for it?


it was cameron's really stupid decision not to put a clause in the referendum bill saying 'this will take effect if the margin of victory is 60/40' or words to that effect. what we have descends from david cameron's fuckwitted decisions after the 2015 general election. as i'm sure i pointed out at the time, there was precedent for legislating after a 50/50 split on a 50% turnout in the referendum on welsh devolution. what we have stems from the way the referendum was designed more than from leave voters themselves given the narrow margin in the result. the leaflet delivered to every house in the country saying 'we will legislate on your decision' just put the icing on the cake. as it is divisions which needn't have existed are now a central part of british life. so blame people for taking part? no.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I hope not. British wine is mostly really bad. The UK is the second biggest importer of wine in the world, just behind the US. No way it could ever supply domestic demand. There's a reason we developed a beer and cider culture.


Have you tried the white wines from the Dorking winery? They are really good. Not great volume mind.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

Them lobsters are at the limit of sustainability now . I don’t think we are going to be able to have a feeding frenzy without about a decades moritorium


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

There are some *very* good UK wines around nowadays, a couple of my wine-loving friends say.

But LBJ is also quite correct on beer and cider


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Have you tried the white wines from the Dorking winery? They are really good. Not great volume mind.


at least we'll be self-sufficient in scotch


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Have you tried the white wines from the Dorking winery? They are really good. Not great volume mind.


I haven't. I have bought a couple of sparkling whites before and they were hideously overpriced. Twenty quid for something that's no better than a cheap Prosecco. Warned off that now, tbh. Also tried some wine from Hampshire at a wine tasting once. It was a struggle to remain polite as the winemaker, who was a very nice man, explained all his processes to us. Quietly found a place to pour it away when he wasn't looking.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Them lobsters are at the limit of sustainability now . I don’t think we are going to be able to have a feeding frenzy without about a decades moritorium



Don't be so shellfish.


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> English white wine sells for a lot. The US love it. Very weather dependant though. Global warming will help.



English sparkling wine is as good as a lot of champagne. Unfortunately it is also as expensive as a lot of champagne.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

If brexit gets us more mead that would be great though.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I haven't. I have bought a couple of sparkling whites before and they were hideously overpriced. Twenty quid for something that's no better than a cheap Prosecco. Warned off that now, tbh. Also tried some wine from Hampshire at a wine tasting once. It was a struggle to remain polite as the winemaker, who was a very nice man, explained all his processes to us. Quietly found a place to pour it away when he wasn't looking.



How recent was this?
I'd be the very worst to judge wine quality, this ale-expert almost never drinks wine ...

But those who I know who know, are confident that quality -- of some UK wines at least --has improved a lot in recent years.

ETA : I get the point about price though, said friends would agree about that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> If brexit gets us more mead that would be great though.


it's always mead mead mead with you


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus  you are definitely against the tide when you say that whites — especially sparkling whites— from the south east aren’t good.  They are certainly more expensive than their equivalent quality wines from abroad but that’s a different matter.  It’s a result of only being able to make low volume batches and needing to use expensive land.   That price differential will shrink, though, if imports become more expensive post-Brexit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> How recent was this?
> I'd be the very worst to judge wine quality, this ale-expert almost never drinks wine,, but those who I jknow who know, are confident that quality -- of some UK wines at least --has improved a lot in recent years.


The wine tasting was about six or seven years ago. The buys from the supermarket about the same time, perhaps a bit before. There was a vinyard close to where I grew up in Gwent. They sold the wine in the local supermarket, and it wasn't cheap - about a tenner iirc, and this was years ago. It was shite.  We don't have the climate for it mostly, and trying to make wine in Wales seems a fool's errand to me.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2020)

Could be a revival of English apples


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Could be a revival of English apples



Massive Cox everywhere


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I haven't. I have bought a couple of sparkling whites before and they were hideously overpriced. Twenty quid for something that's no better than a cheap Prosecco. Warned off that now, tbh. Also tried some wine from Hampshire at a wine tasting once. It was a struggle to remain polite as the winemaker, who was a very nice man, explained all his processes to us. Quietly found a place to pour it away when he wasn't looking.



It is absolutely fine to pour wine away at wine tastings, no winemaker would ever be offended by it, it's a completely normal thing and there are little spittoons and containers for you to pour unwanted wine away for just that very purpose.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It is absolutely fine to pour wine away at wine tastings, no winemaker would ever be offended by it, it's a completely normal thing and there are little spittoons and containers for you to pour unwanted wine away for just that very purpose.


I didn't really know that. It's the only one I've ever been to.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Not considered good form to throw up in them though.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

kabbes said:


> littlebabyjesus  you are definitely against the tide when you say that whites — especially sparkling whites— from the south east aren’t good.  They are certainly more expensive than their equivalent quality wines from abroad but that’s a different matter.  It’s a result of only being able to make low volume batches and needing to use expensive land.   That price differential will shrink, though, if imports become more expensive post-Brexit.


I just haven't spent enough money then? All I can say is the ones I've tried were really disappointing. The price of a cheap Champagne, but not the quality. I like my sparkling wine bone dry, which might be part of the problem.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The wine tasting was about six or seven years ago. The buys from the supermarket about the same time, perhaps a bit before. There was a vinyard close to where I grew up in Gwent. They sold the wine in the local supermarket, and it wasn't cheap - about a tenner iirc, and this was years ago. It was shite.  We don't have the climate for it mostly, and trying to make wine in Wales seems a fool's errand to me.



I get the impression that better English ones tend to come more from SE England anyway, which makes sense weather-wise in increasing numbers of good summers.

The question would be about when we next get a totally shite (rainy, cold, muddy  ) summer UK-wide -- we're well overdue one now...... what's the betting it would be this coming summer, or maybe more likely, 2022


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I just haven't spent enough money then? All I can say is the ones I've tried were really disappointing. The price of a cheap Champagne, but not the quality. I like my sparkling wine bone dry, which might be part of the problem.


I’m not surprised the Welsh ones weren’t good but I am a bit surprised that the Hampshire one wasn’t.  Bolney Estate in Sussex and Denbies near Dorking are the ones with the best reputation, and that is for similar reasons that Hampshire should be good — climate and soil.  The SE climate today is very similar to the Champagne region’s climate about 40-50 years ago.  You need time too though, because vines take about 30-50 years to mature.  Bolney and Denbies have been around long enough to get that.

Because I live very near Dorking, we get a lot of Denbies wines round here so I’m well used to them.  You’ll pay about £17 for something of a kind of quality that you’d pay something like £14 for from France or £12 from California or New Zealand.  It’s good but not the best value.  I virtually never drink these days but when I did, I would often be willing to pay the extra money for the sake of supporting a local business, and given that we would rarely have more than one bottle between two of us at once anyway.


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

This is as good as most NV champagne





__





						Nyetimber Classic Cuvée NV Wine and Dessert matches - Waitrose Cellar
					

Order Nyetimber Classic Cuvée NV Wine and Dessert matches online today from Waitrose Cellar




					www.waitrosecellar.com


----------



## tendril (Dec 11, 2020)

Perhaps at the beginning there was an illusion of choice, but once the idea of leaving gained traction and was propagated so vociferously by leavers and the leave press, even that illusion has vanished.

I'll reiterate my point: no deal was always inevitable because that's what the hardcore leavers wanted all along. The moderate leavers were just scooped up in the wave and allowed to give us the idea that we may get a 'deal'.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not considered good form to throw up in them though.


Not sure it's good form to get as drunk as we did, tbh. They're pretty good value as a night out if you drink as much as we did, but the whiskey at the end was a mistake.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Banking on the spittoons being close were you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

tendril said:


> Perhaps at the beginning there was an illusion of choice, but once the idea of leaving gained traction and was propagated so vociferously by leavers and the leave press, even that illusion has vanished.
> 
> I'll reiterate my point: no deal was always inevitable because that's what the hardcore leavers wanted all along. The moderate leavers were just scooped up in the wave and allowed to give us the idea that we may get a 'deal'.


Yeh but all you have is a repeated insistence this was the case while I have pointed to several occasions from which a different result could have sprung.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think the French will demand Kent too.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think the French will demand Kent too.


And from then on it will be pronounced kœ̃nt.


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

tendril said:


> Perhaps at the beginning there was an illusion of choice, but once the idea of leaving gained traction and was propagated so vociferously by leavers and the leave press, even that illusion has vanished.
> 
> I'll reiterate my point: no deal was always inevitable because that's what the hardcore leavers wanted all along. The moderate leavers were just scooped up in the wave and allowed to give us the idea that we may get a 'deal'.



I don't agree.  But those hardcore leavers comfortable with no deal were equally abetted by 'pour encourage les autres' on the other side of the Channel.  We will do a deal, at some stage, but it will be after some hard and unnecessary lessons.  Or maybe they are The EUrophiles (I think) will probably talk of rejoining the EU.  That would be a membership stripped of rebate and without opt out of the EUro and I don't think that will fly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> And from then on it will be pronounced kœ̃nt.


Victoire


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

gosub said:


> I don't agree.  But those hardcore leavers comfortable with no deal were equally abetted by 'pour encourage les autres' on the other side of the Channel.  We will do a deal, at some stage, but it will be after some hard and unnecessary lessons.  Or maybe they are The EUrophiles (I think) will probably talk of rejoining the EU.  That would be a membership stripped of rebate and without opt out of the EUro and I don't think that will fly.


Depends how shit things get


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> And from then on it will be pronounced kœ̃nt.



I hope the British negotiators are canny enough not to arouse suspicions by agreeing too readily to hand over Kent.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

I can't see the EU letting us back in after this lot even if we asked nicely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I can't see the EU letting us back in after this lot even if we asked nicely.


We will be held up as an example of what not to do


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I hope the British negotiators are canny enough not to arouse suspicions by agreeing too readily to hand over Kent.


Such a thing as "too readily"?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

Does anyone know the tariffs of the WTO terms? I overheard on the radio that for cars they could be 10% while for food products they could be as much as 40% .. ?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We will be held up as an example of what not to do



Naughty corner of Europe wearing a hat with a D on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I hope the British negotiators are canny enough not to arouse suspicions by agreeing too readily to hand over Kent.


You're right, they'll um and er for five minutes before saying "should we say oui or ja?"


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Does anyone know the tariffs of the WTO terms? I overheard on the radio that for cars they could be 10% while for food products they could be as much as 40% .. ?


There are hundreds of different tariffs for different products. There is a table showing them somewhere on the internet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> There are hundreds of different tariffs for different products. There is a table showing them somewhere on the internet.


The only thing you need to know about food is if it comes from Europe we can't afford it any more


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I can't see the EU letting us back in after this lot even if we asked nicely.



There having enough headaches with their covid stimulus package as it is


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Does anyone know the tariffs of the WTO terms? I overheard on the radio that for cars they could be 10% while for food products they could be as much as 40% .. ?



it’s insanely complicated. I once tried to look up what the tariff would be bringing an iPod back into the UK from the US (misplaced honesty). After wading through hundreds of pages of data tables I gave up.

But yes, that kind of range of 10-40% is right.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

In a previous incarnation we used to export 40% of our output, about 20% to the continent and 20% to the USA. The inside EU sales didn't attract extra costs but the US sales did. We found if we classified our products as ABC they attracted quite a high US tariff, but if we classified them as XYZ, which also seemed accurate, they attracted a much reduced cost, much to our importers great happiness as the tariff was payable by them at the point of arrival.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Have you tried the white wines from the Dorking winery? They are really good. Not great volume mind.



Try Albury wines, same hills as Denbies, my favourites wines in the world, white, red, rose and fizzy.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We will be held up as an example of what not to do


_Pour encourager les autres_

If the UK could leave with a good deal, what's to stop other countries?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> _Pour encourager les autres_
> 
> If the UK could leave with a good deal, what's to stop other countries?


if the uk with its auld etonian and oxbridge government couldn't negotiate a deal worth a gnat's fart...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> In a previous incarnation we used to export 40% of our output, about 20% to the continent and 20% to the USA. The inside EU sales didn't attract extra costs but the US sales did. We found if we classified our products as ABC they attracted quite a high US tariff, but if we classified them as XYZ, which also seemed accurate, they attracted a much reduced cost, much to our importers great happiness as the tariff was payable by them at the point of arrival.


It's almost like a common market was a good idea...


----------



## stdP (Dec 11, 2020)

Rather bizarre to see a discussion about wine here but here goes.

The underlying geology of a lot of SE england is the same rocks as the NE of france, so the soil is generally broadly similar; with climate being broadly similar, it's possible to grow grapes of the same calibre as those in parts of france. If memory serves me correctly, some champagne houses had bought some land in kent as a hedge in case climate change rendered parts of the champagne region non-viable in the future.

But because the UK's climate is slightly colder and wetter and gets less sunlight, so a given land area will yield less in the way of grapes in the UK than in france. The UK also doesn't have the same economy of scale for wine as france does, and both land and labour are more expensive, so as good as some english wines can be they're almost always going to be considerably more expensive to produce than their french equivalents and there's no way in hell that the relatively tiny output of the south of england is more than a drop in the bucket of UK wine consumption. My favoured italian plonks are liable to get a lot more expensive, but then british beer is as well since so much of that is made with imported grain.

As an aside for people who enjoy his style, Jonathan Meades used the climatological line where grapes cease to become a viable staple (and thus local booze production revolves around cereals and fruit) as the mythical boundary dividing north and south europe in his excellent series "Magnetic North".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's almost like a common market was a good idea...




Which was why it was voted for.

What changed?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

Just to return to the transition period, from what date are exporters and importers expected to behave in line with whatever is agreed or not agreed in these talks which it seems may end on Sunday?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

stdP said:


> Rather bizarre to see a discussion about wine here but here goes.
> 
> The underlying geology of a lot of SE england is the same rocks as the NE of france, so the soil is generally broadly similar; with climate being broadly similar, it's possible to grow grapes of the same calibre as those in parts of france. If memory serves me correctly, some champagne houses had bought some land in kent as a hedge in case climate change rendered parts of the champagne region non-viable in the future.
> 
> ...




Anyone who knows anything about wine knows that Europe's a dead duck; South America, California, Oregon (similar issues to UK wine, similarly excellent), Australia, New Zealand, all outclass the Euro-plonk. If paying any more than a fiver for a bottle, who bothers with continental wines these days?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Just to return to the transition period, from what date are exporters and importers expected to behave in line with whatever is agreed or not agreed in these talks which it seems may end on Sunday?


we go to hell in a (right hand drive) handcart on 1 january


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Just to return to the transition period, from what date are exporters and importers expected to behave in line with whatever is agreed or not agreed in these talks which it seems may end on Sunday?




1st January 2021


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

There is going to be chaos ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> There is going to be chaos ...


there will be blood


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anyone who knows anything about wine knows that Europe's a dead duck; South America, California, Oregon (similar issues to UK wine, similarly excellent), Australia, New Zealand, all outclass the Euro-plonk. If paying any more than a fiver for a bottle, who bothers with continental wines these days?


We get ripped off here, both by the duty and inflated prices, but you can buy excellent French wine in France for 5-6 euros.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> There is going to be chaos ...




tbf, now is a good time for it; no deal means imports/exports will be chaotic, business will suffer, travel could be problematic. But due to the plague business is hardly happening, and neither is travel, so a good time to test the water and see how things can be improved...


----------



## stdP (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What changed?



A decades-long media campaign, combined with yet another period of massive wealth inequality following the 2008 crash, convincing a great many increasingly desperate people that all of this was nothing to do with the UK no longer being a military and industrial superpower and their government being unable to do anything about it, and that instead they'd been stabbed in the back by international finance/immigrants/foreign bureaucrats who hate the UK/heathens/insufficiently patriotic brits/pick your poison. And somehow all of this would be fixed by driving ourselves out of our largest export market.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anyone who knows anything about wine knows that Europe's a dead duck; South America, California, Oregon (similar issues to UK wine, similarly excellent), Australia, New Zealand, all outclass the Euro-plonk. If paying any more than a fiver for a bottle, who bothers with continental wines these days?



I don't claim to know much about wines, just acquired the taste from various partners. Excellent uncomplicated table wine is available in the france and italy in bulk for very little money (I think the last time I was in italy I got five litres of the local valpollicella for €12); put the same stuff in a bottle and hoof it over the channel and all of a sudden it's two or three times the price. There's certainly excellent wines available from dozens of countries, I just have a penchant for the italian stuff myself. A broad brush I know, but the american stuff (almost all of it californian IIRC) I tend to find over-fussy as well as being surprisingly expensive.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We get ripped off here, both by the duty and inflated prices, but you can buy excellent French wine in France for 5-6 euros.




That is the point though, we can't buy that here, a tenner is the minimum for anything that isn't awful and at that price-point in the UK New World wines win every time.

When raving through France we used to buy 2ltr plastic bottles of wine for Fr11, then €1. Would strip the enamel off your teeth, but get you pissed. Mixing it with coke made it palatable.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> tbf, now is a good time for it; no deal means imports/exports will be chaotic, business will suffer, travel could be problematic. But due to the plague business is hardly happening, and either is travel, so a good time to test the water and see how things can be improved...


We exported through the year, most businesses I talk to have been continuing as near to normal as they can manage. You are right they will suffer, a complex aspect has just / will just be inserted into what used to be relatively simple trading arrangements.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That is the point though, we can't buy that here, a tenner is the minimum for anything that isn't awful and at that price-point in the UK New World wines win every time.
> 
> When raving through France we used to buy 2ltr plastic bottles of wine for Fr11, then €1. Would strip the enamel off your teeth, but get you pissed. Mixing it with coke made it palatable.


Yes, that's fair. I drank the Spanish red in plastic bottles when travelling there. Same sort of price and quality. There's a reason the Spanish chill it first. They also mix it with coke.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

I wonder how prepared UK Customs are to start collecting tariffs on incoming goods and services?


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Which was why it was voted for.
> 
> What changed?


The Maastricht Treaty, which formed the EU, which was not voted on, or the other treaties for that matter.  EUrope evolved a hell of a lot since 71, Paying attention to those changes was at the time seen as niche


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder how prepared UK Customs are to start collecting tariffs on incoming goods and services?




A couple of big fellas in bomber jackets with coshes stood on the A2, all sorted.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

coshes are imported we won't be able to get any


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

gosub said:


> The Maastricht Treaty, which formed the EU, which was not voted on, or the other treaties for that matter.  EUrope evolved a hell of a lot since 71, Paying attention to those changes was at the time seen as niche




I noticed, not cos politics, but travel, the passport lane sign kept changing, EC/EEA/EU and so on. That is all I noticed though.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> coshes are imported we won't be able to get any




What about the Great British Bobbie's trusty truncheon? British coshes for British cozzers!


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Made in Belgium I bet


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We get ripped off here, both by the duty and inflated prices, but you can buy excellent French wine in France for 5-6 euros.



Got some red Vino verdi inbound at 3 euros + 1 euro for transit, Touchwood should be pretty decent


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> In a previous incarnation we used to export 40% of our output, about 20% to the continent and 20% to the USA. The inside EU sales didn't attract extra costs but the US sales did. We found if we classified our products as ABC they attracted quite a high US tariff, but if we classified them as XYZ, which also seemed accurate, they attracted a much reduced cost, much to our importers great happiness as the tariff was payable by them at the point of arrival.


"Under the current no-deal applied trade tariffs, the UK would be forced to trade on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, meaning UK farmers would face higher fees on exports such as 48% on lamb and 84% on beef (see graphic below)."








						Archive
					






					www.nfuonline.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Mixing it with coke made it palatable.


and reduced the dental damage


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> "Under the current no-deal applied trade tariffs, the UK would be forced to trade on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, meaning UK farmers would face higher fees on exports such as 48% on lamb and 84% on beef (see graphic below)."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



From that article:



> “Clearly the imposition of tariffs on our exports to the EU will most likely lead to a surplus of domestic products on the UK market, while at the same time lower or no tariffs on imports into the UK will put further pressure on domestic producer prices.
> 
> “There’s also the risk that without the maintenance of tariff protections we would be in danger of opening up the UK to imported food which would be illegal to be produced here.
> 
> “The situation is particularly stark on the island of Ireland where no tariffs will be collected on imports across the land-border. There is no indication that such an arrangement will be reciprocated by the EU and there is nothing in practical terms to stop this trade becoming an open gateway for all EU goods entering the UK duty free.”


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> and reduced the dental damage



Aha that sort of coke I was briefly confused


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> "Under the current no-deal applied trade tariffs, the UK would be forced to trade on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, meaning UK farmers would face higher fees on exports such as 48% on lamb and 84% on beef (see graphic below)."



My understanding is that it is the EU importers who would have to pay the tariffs.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

That makes sense - so the EU gets the dosh.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> That makes sense - so the EU gets the dosh.



It works both ways though, anyone wants really stinky cheese, Rishi gets a lump.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> "Under the current no-deal applied trade tariffs, the UK would be forced to trade on World Trade Organisation (WTO) rules, meaning UK farmers would face higher fees on exports such as 48% on lamb and 84% on beef (see graphic below)."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's almost like they haven't thought this through...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It works both ways though, anyone wants really stinky cheese, Rishi gets a lump.



Perhaps we could send him our really stinky cheese lumps direct


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's almost like they haven't thought this through...


Or there will be a deal


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Perhaps we could send him our really stinky cheese lumps direct




*fumbles around in pants for a donation...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

Why do we export so much produce only to import the same? Local food for local people, or else the planet dies.


----------



## andysays (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> coshes are imported we won't be able to get any


You're not going to tell me there are no British workers already trained to make coshes and we're going to have to rely on Romania and India for those as well, are you?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

Just heard a VT of Johnson sounding like he wants WTO / no deal. 
Britain can do exactly what it wants he said .. 
The man is an imbecile..


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

andysays said:


> You're not going to tell me there are no British workers already trained to make coshes and we're going to have to rely on Romania and India for those as well, are you?





			Batons
		

.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder how prepared UK Customs are to start collecting tariffs on incoming goods and services?


They aren't, because they still don't know what type of deal we will have.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

THE WIFE WONT TAKE MY CALLS AND MY KIDS DONT WANT TO SEE ME.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

andysays said:


> You're not going to tell me there are no British workers already trained to make coshes and we're going to have to rely on Romania and India for those as well, are you?


I believe India is still largely a cosh economy.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> They aren't, because they still don't know what type of deal we will have.


Oh I am sure they have contingency plans.


----------



## Winot (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> We exported through the year, most businesses I talk to have been continuing as near to normal as they can manage. You are right they will suffer, a complex aspect has just / will just be inserted into what used to be relatively simple trading arrangements.



 Have you only just found out about Brexit


----------



## two sheds (Dec 11, 2020)

gosub said:


> Batons
> 
> 
> .



Yeh _made_ in Britain I bet the steel comes from Belgium


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Yeh _made_ in Britain I bet the steel comes from Belgium


I'm sure if they practice enough they can get a lovely CE imprint in the brusing


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)




----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

Winot said:


> Have you only just found out about Brexit


Been aware long enough thanks. 
As we already export under WTO terms to non EU locations, we have a level of preparation.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

gosub said:


>


Hope to fucking God that's just some sort of bullshit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

gosub said:


>



All believable but without names it is just words on the internet.

“Someone who knows said Barnier’s dad was shagging Eva Braun’s daughter....”


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

A solution “different from what we set out to achieve”  but also it will be “wonderful for the uk”.


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2020)

Just putting this here










						Petition: To Seek a 1 year Extension to the Brexit Transition Period & a Second Referendum
					

To seek a 1 year extension to the Brexit Transition Period so that negotiations on the future EU-UK relationship can be concluded and a referendum conducted. The UK public can assent or reject the terms. A rejection would mean that the Government would commit to seeking re-entry to the EU.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 11, 2020)

God, this shit is so grim. Britain is a reactionary, racist hell-scape and it's pretty sure to get much worse next year. When everything goes to hell, I wonder who the tory regime and their fascist attack dogs in the vermin media will pick out as the scapegoat - 'critical race theorists'? 'cultural Marxists'? 'the muslims'? Grim times ahead.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why do we export so much produce only to import the same? Local food for local people, or else the planet dies.


It is insanity that we both export sheep meat and then import sheep meat, from New Zealand say. How did that come about?


----------



## editor (Dec 11, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> God, this shit is so grim. Britain is a reactionary, racist hell-scape and it's pretty sure to get much worse next year. When everything goes to hell, I wonder who the tory regime and their fascist attack dogs in the vermin media will pick out as the scapegoat - 'critical race theorists'? 'cultural Marxists'? 'the muslims'? Grim times ahead.


And the remainers. Apparently it's all their fault too.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Even he had to pause before he could spit out the absurd word 'wonderful'.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> It is insanity that we both export sheep meat and then import sheep meat, from New Zealand say. How did that come about?




Unless we stop moving ourselves and our crap around the planet willy-nilly we are fucked. We are fucked anyway, but a massive part of the change that needs to happen now if we stand any chance at all of unfucking ourselves is to stop moving crap/ourselves around so much. Really is local shit for local people, or we're fucked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


>


----------



## Raheem (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> It is insanity that we both export sheep meat and then import sheep meat, from New Zealand say. How did that come about?


Apparently, the UK is somehow legally obliged to buy a third of NZ's lamb supply. Don't know why, but maybe Google does.

ETA: it's not that we're obliged to buy it, but there is a WTO deal that means there are no tariffs on that third, meaning that it is inevitable that we do, because it is cheaper than lamb from anywhere else.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Apparently, the UK is somehow legally obliged to buy a third of NZ's lamb supply. Don't know why, but maybe Google does.


If the NZ lamb would otherwise have been sold in the rest of the EU, this arrangement doesn't necessarily add that many freight-miles to the totals involved.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 11, 2020)

It is actually quite impressive what a thick twat Boris is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It is actually quite impressive what a thick twat Boris is.


It's more that he thinks everyone else is thick, no? In this instance, at least. A wonderful situation, an Australia-style solution. Saying that shows contempt for his audience more than anything.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 11, 2020)

It's barking that NZ lamb is sold anywhere other than NZ, it's too remote a place to screw the planet to grow meat that you further screw the planet transporting across the planet.


This attitude may make NZ uninhabitable, but just could leave the rest of the planet habitable, so...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It is actually quite impressive what a thick twat Boris is.


Dont you mean expert hardball brinksman negotiator


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why do we export so much produce only to import the same? Local food for local people, or else the planet dies.


The more you look at it the stupider it gets. I looked up the lamb conundrum a while ago & think it was to do with the British mostly just wanting to eat the legs. So export the rest of the sheep, buy more legs, from other side of planet.


----------



## Shechemite (Dec 11, 2020)

Surely we should buy the other bits to drive up demand for sheep non-leg bits


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

We have 4 ships?



What could possibly go wrong?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> We have 4 ships?
> 
> View attachment 243022
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?


Bet they don't have engines


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Bet they don't have engines


You say that, but...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> You say that, but...
> 
> View attachment 243024


He won't get far if he tries to flee south georgia


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> We have 4 ships?
> 
> View attachment 243022
> 
> What could possibly go wrong?



We've got four ships but Britain is perilously short of seamen.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> We've got four ships but Britain is perilously short of seamen.


A real Friday drinks post


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If the NZ lamb would otherwise have been sold in the rest of the EU, this arrangement doesn't necessarily add that many freight-miles to the totals involved.


It predates the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

bimble said:


> The more you look at it the stupider it gets. I looked up the lamb conundrum a while ago & think it was to do with the British mostly just wanting to eat the legs. So export the rest of the sheep, buy more legs, from other side of planet.


I love shoulder. They wont sell it here.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

Interesting to see Australia used as a type of solution that’s isn’t a  real solution at all.I’m trying to think of weak metaphors to take The piss but I have just had my pre tea time nap and am a little befuddled


----------



## brogdale (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Interesting to see “Australia” used as a type of solution.I’m trying to think of weak metaphors to take The piss but I have just had my pre tea time nap and am a little befuddled


In this case the swivel-eyed horde are merely using the name of that country as shorthand for any nation state that doesn't have a recognised trading relationship with the supra-state beyond default WTO determined arrangements.

You can see why they use it, tbf.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

brogdale said:


> In this case the swivel-eyed horde are merely using the name of that country as shorthand for any nation state that doesn't have a recognised trading relationship with the supra-state beyond default WTO determined arrangements.
> 
> You can see why they use it, tbf.


crucially a CANZUK one too


----------



## bimble (Dec 11, 2020)

It will have been thinktanked , Australia conjures up happy upbeat associations like beaches, bouncy marsupials & blondes, sounds better than a Kyrgyzstan style deal.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I love shoulder. They wont sell it here.


Why’s that ?


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Interesting to see Australia used as a type of solution that’s isn’t a  real solution at all.I’m trying to think of weak metaphors to take The piss but I have just had my pre tea time nap and am a little befuddled



Australia and EU are still working on a trade deal, but they have, (after protracted negotiation) agreed that standards are sufficiently good and similar for an MRA.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 11, 2020)

Can someone please explain to me what the obsession with bloody fishing is all about in this ridiculous country? Some fuckwit romantic notion of Britannia ruling the waves?


----------



## maomao (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It predates the EU.


Indeed. A local chap was telling me earlier in the year that the common market had ruined it all and that we'd been getting New Zealand lamb a lot cheaper before Europe happened. He just rolled his eyes when I mentioned food miles though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 11, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Can someone please explain to me what the obsession with bloody fishing is all about in this ridiculous country? Some fuckwit romantic notion of Britannia ruling the waves?



Visibily decayed port towns due a mix of fishing declining along with changes in travel patterns meaning no fucker goes to the seaside for holidays (aside from maybe Blackpool)

Its akin to the dead and dying towns after the mines closed and many of the people involved were told it was the EU to blame for setting quotas on fish, failing to note that without quotas on fishing the seas around the UK would be ecologically fucking dead.  Even with the quotas the stocks of fish are fucked.



Its also worth noting that for a fishing nation we've always exporting a shit ton of our catch, we only eat actual fish fish like Cod, Herring Mackerel, maybe some crabs and the odd shellfish but the vast bulk of the catch used to wind up overseas.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 11, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Can someone please explain to me what the obsession with bloody fishing is all about in this ridiculous country? Some fuckwit romantic notion of Britannia ruling the waves?



Even if fishing were a huge sector of the UK economy, which it isn't, losing acces to EU markets would tank it anyway.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2020)

I suspect there is also some security justification in there about knowing who is in our waters and for what purpose.  Or porpoise, possibly.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 11, 2020)

While it may be crazy that we export lamb to NZ whilst also importing it, it's not necessarily true that it's more harmful for us to eat NZ lamb than UK lamb, because the transport impact might be outweighed by other factors; this is quite often the case for foodstuffs because some places need less energy input into their farming methods due to climate or land availability and so on.

Of course if we really wanted to reduce the impact of the lamb we eat, the best thing to do would simply to eat much less, or none of it, regardless of where it comes from.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 11, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Visibily decayed port towns due a mix of fishing declining along with changes in travel patterns meaning no fucker goes to the seaside for holidays (aside from maybe Blackpool)
> 
> Its akin to the dead and dying towns after the mines closed and many of the people involved were told it was the EU to blame for setting quotas on fish, failing to note that without quotas on fishing the seas around the UK would be ecologically fucking dead.  Even with the quotas the stocks of fish are fucked.
> 
> ...


Loads of people go to cleethorpes (humberston fitties), borth and filey

And much of the UK quota of fishing is owned by non-british people. It is a strange ditch to die in


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Dec 11, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And much of the UK quota of fishing is owned by non-british people. It is a strange ditch to die in


 
There’s currently 10 super trawlers taking the piss in the channel right now.











						Nine 'supertrawlers' fishing off Sussex coast spark fears for wildlife
					

Nine “super trawlers” are currently fishing off the coast of Brighton, prompting fears from a wildlife charity.




					www.theargus.co.uk


----------



## Smangus (Dec 11, 2020)

There's a right wing fetish about an OZ, UK 🇬🇧, Canadian, NZ kind of trading/business arrangement bloc. For this read white and English speaking . There are coordinated  contacts between right wing conservative groupings in these countries  to promote this idea. A no deal Brexit is manna to them as it is a massive step towards this concept becoming reality for them given the size of the UK economy. This is what is behind the promotion of the "Australia" type deal. There is an endgame here.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 11, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Can someone please explain to me what the obsession with bloody fishing is all about in this ridiculous country? Some fuckwit romantic notion of Britannia ruling the waves?



I think it's a lot to do with how a lot of Leavers see themselves and their country - fishermen are romanticised as brave, independent hunter-gathers working in a traditional profession, who nobly go out to do battle with nature and bring back food for the nation, and never mind that most of what they catch is herring etc. for export and more people work in Argos than in fishing and fish processing.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

Smangus said:


> There's a right wing fetish about an OZ, UK 🇬🇧, Canadian, NZ kind of trading/business arrangement bloc. For this read white and English speaking . There are coordinated  contacts between right wing conservative groupings in these countries  to promote this idea. A no deal Brexit is manna to them as it is a massive step towards this concept becoming reality for them given the size of the UK economy. This is what is behind the promotion of the "Australia" type deal. There is an endgame here.


Yes, CANZUK. 








						CANZUK - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## TopCat (Dec 11, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Why’s that ?


No one wants it supposedly. Same with sheepskin. All gets exported. Who benefits?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I love shoulder. They wont sell it here.


I love shank .. lamb shank .. yum 

Shame for the lamb though not much of a life. 

In the UK we breed lambs/sheep for meat and their wool is an afterthought.
In Oz they breed sheep for the wool and the meat is an afterthought.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Yes, CANZUK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just fucking loon all round. The geography alone. Makes sense for Aus/NZ to have reciprocity across the Tasman, but their future is with the Asia-Pacific area, the fastest growing economic region in the world, for good or ill. And how can Canada not prioritise their nearest neighbour?

Just a fucking empire fetish. And we have a shit-bird PM who loves this bollocks.

Why am I getting so angry about this today anyway? This crap has been building for years. I'm not getting enough sunlight, perhaps.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 11, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No one wants it supposedly. Same with sheepskin. All gets exported. Who benefits?


Love it , it’s has the right fat to meat content and far better than leg. I once bought a shoulder of mutton slow cooked it and was in heaven .


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> Just fucking loon all round. The geography alone. Makes sense for Aus/NZ to have reciprocity across the Tasman, but their future is with the Asia-Pacific area, the fastest growing economic region in the world, for good or ill. And how can Canada not prioritise their nearest neighbour?
> 
> Just a fucking empire fetish. And we have a shit-bird PM who loves this bollocks.
> 
> Why am I getting so angry about this today anyway? This crap has been building for years. I'm not getting enough sunlight, perhaps.


 CANZUK is the promised land for the ERG types. They're open about it.

 Just watch how the new migration system will work... White and English speaking front of the queue.


----------



## tendril (Dec 11, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But I don't believe no-deal was the government's plan all along


Brexit wasn't a government plan.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2020)

kabbes how will a WTO arrangement affect UK financial services?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> kabbes how will a WTO arrangement affect UK financial services?


They will just set up offshore offices and carry on getting rich  

There are no 'declarations' on services, only movement of goods. You will struggle to get medicines and fresh foods but can move your lovely profits around the world


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

tendril said:


> Brexit wasn't a government plan.


_That_ government is in the bin of history. This 2019 one a different matter, they've got a plan


----------



## vanya (Dec 11, 2020)

Johnson is a mendacious shitweasel









						Playing the Brexit End Game
					

Ah, you've got to love evasions and symptomatic silences. Reflecting on Wednesday's trip to Brussels, Boris Johnson said  "we'll have a so...




					averypublicsociologist.blogspot.com
				






> Ah, you've got to love evasions and symptomatic silences. Reflecting on Wednesday's trip to Brussels, Boris Johnson said "we'll have a solution that's much more like an Australian relationship to the EU than a Canadian relationship with the EU. That doesn't mean it's a bad thing ...". A refusal to call no deal no deal, and then putting a brave face on matters is now the new Tory line. Okay. Whether this is theatre before a very Johnson climbdown (like last time) or _not_ a bluff, both speak of utter failure. This moment is the culmination of a process 41 years old, of a disastrous dismantling of the country's social fabric to butress the power and line the pockets of the miserable minority interest the Tories stand for. Twice the Tories have purposely trashed the economy and wrecked living standards for this most frivolous of ends, and now they stand on the threshold of doing it a third time.
> 
> The question is how do the two main parties manage the politics. Because British politics is perverse, Johnson is in a good place to spin his lackadaisical and unserious trade negotiations as something positive. Or, at the very least, not damaging. The "Australian relationship" bullshit is going to fly because the media feeding the Tory base will do their stenographic best to convey the right message. The border down the Irish Sea agreed by Johnson over the body of his one-and-indivisible UK posturing didn't upset the Brexiteers, though we shouldn't be shocked given the mindset, so why would the end of this complete waste of time be any different? There are two ways Johnson can keep the ship steady amid the shoppy seas crashing against our independent coastal state.
> 
> ...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

One last thing re CANZUK, it's no coincidence the Tory's hired that disgraced and disgraceful Australian ex PM Tony Abbott for "post Brexit trade talks"


----------



## ska invita (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> kabbes how will a WTO arrangement affect UK financial services?


As negatively as possible I hope


----------



## kabbes (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> kabbes how will a WTO arrangement affect UK financial services?


Oh, the U.K. financial services already inoculated themselves from Brexit years ago.  They redomiciled their European head offices to somewhere else in the continent rather than London, opened up a U.K. branch to carry on local transactions here and altered their parent-subsidiary structures so that European groups didn’t pollute the non-European stuff and vice verse.  It makes no difference at this point whether there’s a deal or not — the financial services were forced to prepare for no deal by the end of 2018 anyway.


----------



## tendril (Dec 11, 2020)

ska invita said:


> _That_ government is in the bin of history. This 2019 one a different matter, they've got a plan


My point is that brexit wasn't any government's plan. I believe it was planned by people who weren't in government or at least not at cabinet level when it as planned. Brexit had been fomented for years before the actual vote.


----------



## gosub (Dec 11, 2020)

tendril said:


> My point is that brexit wasn't any government's plan. I believe it was planned by people who weren't in government or at least not at cabinet level when it as planned. Brexit had been fomented for years before the actual vote.



Nope.  Some thinking did come out of there, but all were found wanting for one reason or another.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 11, 2020)

I cannot get stressed about this any more. No, it will not be as bad as some prophesise ( see South Africa/ Brazil World Cup horror stories), Yes, it will be a pain in the arse and will undoubtably be detrimental to many , many people in the UK in the longer term. Its out of my control. Good luck all.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 11, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Shame for the lamb though not much of a life.



Chickens are generally much, much younger than lambs when killed for their meat, but no-one ever seems to mind that. I guess the word lamb has cute baby connotations in the way chicken doesn't.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 11, 2020)

Boris trying a last throw of the dice for a deal.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

Wrong thread


----------



## A380 (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> _That_ government is in the bin of history. This 2019 one a different matter, they've got a plan



Sadly I don’t think ‘they’ have. I think it’s just been one fuck up after another from these third rate Etonian spivs.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

A380 said:


> Sadly I don’t think ‘they’ have. I think it’s just been one fuck up after another from these third rate Etonian spivs.


You might be right. Some of these ERG lot have been dreaming about this for decades - worryingly I reckon they're well planned-up for this new era


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 12, 2020)

(sadly he's not allowing replies)


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

tendril said:


> My point is that brexit wasn't any government's plan. I believe it was planned by people who weren't in government or at least not at cabinet level when it as planned. Brexit had been fomented for years before the actual vote.



Fomented, but not (necessarily) executed.  There are those who've been planning and pushing for Brexit for a long time, and I'm pretty sure at least some of the ERG-type MPs and some fellow travellers outside the parliamentary party - Crispin Odey, Jeremy Hosking and similar, plus figures more distant from the Tories, such as Arron Banks - have been trying to force the government in a no-deal direction all along.  But I don't think many who've actually been in government - in the sense of being at Cabinet level - since 2016 wanted a 'no-deal' outcome.  Many of them seem to have drunk their own Kool-Aid about Johnny Foreigner rolling over and giving the UK everything it wants, others overestimated their own ability to make a deal, and/or they've all been too weak, too divided or too incompetent to stop the hardliners slowly closing down the other possible outcomes.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 12, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 243085
> 
> (sadly he's not allowing replies)


The one element of sympathy I have with that is that if you’re going to throw all your toys out of the pram about owning fishing, you damn well need to then back it up when it comes to keeping fishing.  Otherwise it really is doubly pointless


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

On the fishing issue, here's the view of the NFFO, which speaks - generally - for the bigger players in the catching sector. It's striking how much more belligerent a tone they're striking now than they were a year or two ago, still less in 2016. Although much of the industry was vocally pro-leave, the NFFO was officially neutral in the referendum campaign and its pronouncements for a while afterwards were fairly anodyne. I suspect that reflected the fact that, although most of the industry feels (not without some justification) that it got shafted in the 70s and the CFP doesn't work in its favour, the more sensible players do also understand that a lot of them depend on being able to sell their catches into the single market. They still do, so it's quite surprising to see the NFFO being so cavalier about 'no deal.'


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2020)

Shithole Britain strikes again


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2020)

The only feasible solution to the “fishing problem” comes from Benjamin Zephaniah: 



Infinite Marxist-Lentilist salutes to the mighty BZ!


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Shithole Britain strikes again
> 
> View attachment 243099



More like, English Nationalist government plays to its base...


----------



## bimble (Dec 12, 2020)

Here’s a thread that’s genuinely frightening and also contains a photo of Margaret thatchers tinned food cupboard.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2020)

[


Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 243085
> 
> (sadly he's not allowing replies)



The navy already patrols the channel, its part of their job


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 12, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> More like, English Nationalist government plays to its base...



Hence shithole Britain


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

.


----------



## rummo (Dec 12, 2020)

Brexit just isn't the same without Mark Francois contributions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> .


Good point well made


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> View attachment 243085
> 
> (sadly he's not allowing replies)


Wry smiles from Iceland?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 12, 2020)

Daily Wail advice is a strong message...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

We will keep our lamb and fish and jolly tasty it will be too. 
The EU can keep IKEA. 








						Ikea latest firm to suffer shortages and delays due to clogged UK ports
					

Swedish chain says it is struggling to meet demand and apologises to customers




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

Glasgow salad with everything


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

bimble said:


> Here’s a thread that’s genuinely frightening and also contains a photo of Margaret thatchers tinned food cupboard.



As a  thread about concerns about food shortages in the 70s its intersting. However in trying to link it withe the Common Market or EU it 'over eggs the pudding' tbh. The sugar shortage was very short lived affected not just the UK but other countries .There was a minor wave of panic buying salt due to some rumours about Serbia despite most of our salt coming  from Cheshire  The bread shortage was due to industrial action in the UK as were other shortages in the 60s and 70s . A scan through the 80s and 90s even the 2000s will show loads of stuff about shortages or fear of shortages.


----------



## pesh (Dec 12, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Daily Wail advice is a strong message...
> 
> View attachment 243117


they don't understand toast?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Daily Wail advice is a strong message...
> 
> View attachment 243117


 

They will have to pry my avocado smash from my cold dead hands


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> As a  thread about concerns about food shortages in the 70s its intersting. However in trying to link it withe the Common Market or EU it 'over eggs the pudding' tbh. The sugar shortage was very short lived affected not just the UK but other countries .There was a minor wave of panic buying salt due to some rumours about Serbia despite most of our salt coming  from Cheshire  The bread shortage was due to industrial action in the UK as were other shortages in the 60s and 70s . A scan through the 80s and 90s even the 2000s will show loads of stuff about shortages or fear of shortages.


 

A generation of adults who remembered the war probably escalated shortage worries


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> https://www.urban75.net/forums/attachments/1607735285579-png.243085/
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Crossed the line from brinkmanship into pure pantomime there - i bet his UK audience love it



Roadkill said:


> Fomented, but not (necessarily) executed.  There are those who've been planning and pushing for Brexit for a long time, and I'm pretty sure at least some of the ERG-type MPs and some fellow travellers outside the parliamentary party - Crispin Odey, Jeremy Hosking and similar, plus figures more distant from the Tories, such as Arron Banks - have been trying to force the government in a no-deal direction all along.  But I don't think many who've actually been in government - in the sense of being at Cabinet level - since 2016 wanted a 'no-deal' outcome.  Many of them seem to have drunk their own Kool-Aid about Johnny Foreigner rolling over and giving the UK everything it wants, others overestimated their own ability to make a deal, and/or they've all been too weak, too divided or too incompetent to stop the hardliners slowly closing down the other possible outcomes.


Cabinet heads have been saying all along We cant get a good deal unless the threat of no deal is firmly on the table - so now its firmly on the table. Mission accomplished.
Johnson knows he can uturn at any moment and bluster any last minute deal as a magnificent hard fought xmas present etc etc, and no one will give a shit that he just said yesterday that No prime minister could ever allow it etc

Odds are there'll be a late deal, painted as a military victory, and the gunboats will stand down lol.

(or its a no deal afterall, im betting on that horse too!  )


TopCat said:


> We will keep our lamb and fish and jolly tasty it will be too.
> [/URL]


well as already discussed meat farmers are about to lose their subsidies so whatever happens on deal or no deal its going to massively shrink UK meat production.  which im happy about. id like to see it fade out completely. and it may well do. i expect vast majority of meat will be imported in 10 years time.


----------



## Supine (Dec 12, 2020)

rummo said:


> Brexit just isn't the same without Mark Francois contributions.



I wonder what ever happened to that shit bag


----------



## Lorca (Dec 12, 2020)

I see the National Farmers Union have been busted secretly lobbying george eustace to reintroduce neonicotinoids (since they're banned by the eu) post brexit. This is really worrying imo, i guess not too many people care much about the catastrophic decline in bee numbers but they're an extremely important part of the eco-system. I suspect a lot of this type of lobbying is going on behind closed doors as we speak.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Glasgow salad with everything


What is Glasgow salad?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The bread shortage was due to industrial action in the UK


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

two sheds said:


>



Funnily enough I went to his  wedding.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

The rerouting of cargo has affected produce suppliers such as Minor, Weir and Willis, which said it had two container loads of ginger stuck in Zeebrugge. They could be driven to the UK within 12 hours but the company told the Grocer magazine that the paperwork could take days, a situation the company described as “maddening”.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What is Glasgow salad?


Chips


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Now we are staring at no deal, hyperbole aside, what do you all predict will actually happen?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Now we are staring at no deal, hyperbole aside, what do you all predict will actually happen?


we know the options, both are possible, but none of us can truly know what scheming is going on inside their sick calculating minds.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Now we are staring at no deal, hyperbole aside, what do you all predict will actually happen?


Everything will get more awkward and more expensive.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Everything will get more awkward and more expensive.


pretty much, yes


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Everything will get more awkward and more expensive.


Not everything surely? Stuff produced and sold here will not necessarily go up in price? 
Tariffs on IKEA furniture and Mercedes cars and other eu imports. All the stuff we get from china will keep flowing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Everything will get more awkward and more expensive.


While wages are frozen for the next three years.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Will the lack of a deal and a refusal to sign up to the EU's contingency plans really ground planes for instance?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> While wages are frozen for the next three years.


They have been frozen for many since 2008.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They have been frozen for many since 2008.


I know. I'm one of those people. But we've just had concrete announcements for the public sector, so if a no deal pushes prices up, we're pretty much guaranteed yet more funnelling of wealth to the rich.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not everything surely? Stuff produced and sold here will not necessarily go up in price?
> Tariffs on IKEA furniture and Mercedes cars and other eu imports. All the stuff we get from china will keep flowing.



China, as with pretty much the rest of the non EU world usually falls under existing EU agreements - we dont have a FTA with china yet- would be tricky to set up. We dont have the expertise in house to to sort out trading agreements easily- we have relied upon the EU to spearhead these kind of things. It can be done  but we will be ripped by those who construct advatageous bully deals as a living eg the USA


eta, the EU are likely to well machiavellian about future deals with other places and push that they get priority over the UK


----------



## gosub (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Will the lack of a deal and a refusal to sign up to the EU's contingency plans really ground planes for instance?



Yes.  Indirectly

Without formal recogn of admin systems, the get out for the insurance companies is too large for any airline to consider itself insured.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 12, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> China, as with pretty much the rest of the non EU world usually falls under existing EU agreements - we dont have a FTA with china yet- would be tricky to set up. We dont have the expertise in house to to sort out trading agreements easily- we have relied upon the EU to spearhead these kind of things. It can be done  but we will be ripped by those who construct advatageous bully deals as a living eg the USA



That's silly, we can just use existing agreements but cross out European Union and insert Britain in crayon


----------



## maomao (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Stuff produced and sold here will not necessarily go up in price?


It will without competition from imports. For example we only produce 10% of our own tomatoes. The pressure on tomato imports will reflect in the price of British grown tomatoes.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Johnson knows he can uturn at any moment and bluster any last minute deal as a magnificent hard fought xmas present etc etc, and no one will give a shit that he just said yesterday that No prime minister could ever allow it etc


This is what I reckon will happen.

He's u-turned so many times, it's clearly not a problem for him.

The idea of food & medicine shortages and grounded planes is too much for even the Tories to handle. I think there will be another extension to the transition period, but obviously it can't b called that - it will be rebranded like the "agreement in principle" on the Irish border.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> eta, the EU are likely to well machiavellian about future deals with other places and push that they get priority over the UK


All those goods the EU sell us, you dont think this will effect attitudes?


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2020)

maomao said:


> It will without competition from imports. For example we only produce 10% of our own tomatoes. The pressure on tomato imports will reflect in the price of British grown tomatoes.


But lobster should get cheaper, yeah?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

maomao said:


> It will without competition from imports. For example we only produce 10% of our own tomatoes. The pressure on tomato imports will reflect in the price of British grown tomatoes.


I'm pretty certain we can grow more tomatoes.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> This is what I reckon will happen.
> 
> He's u-turned so many times, it's clearly not a problem for him.
> 
> The idea of food & medicine shortages and grounded planes is too much for even the Tories to handle. I think there will be another extension to the transition period, but obviously it can't b called that - it will be rebranded like the "agreement in principle" on the Irish border.


This is still my guess. But I'm not ruling anything out any more with the Clown Show.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Medicine shortages could have a catastrophic impact. I recollect well the EU restricting the Greeks access to meds.


----------



## maomao (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I'm pretty certain we can grow more tomatoes.


By a factor of ten? Immediately?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> This is what I reckon will happen.
> 
> He's u-turned so many times, it's clearly not a problem for him.
> 
> The idea of food & medicine shortages and grounded planes is too much for even the Tories to handle. I think there will be another extension to the transition period, but obviously it can't b called that - it will be rebranded like the "agreement in principle" on the Irish border.


The deadline for agreeing an extension to the transition period passed on june


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

maomao said:


> By a factor of ten? Immediately?


Yeah. Well, ready for 2021 harvest!


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Now we are staring at no deal, hyperbole aside, what do you all predict will actually happen?


In the event of a no deal  there's a reasonable summary  here.




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Brie shortages are no biggie. Meds are a huge thing.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> This is what I reckon will happen.
> 
> He's u-turned so many times, it's clearly not a problem for him.
> 
> The idea of food & medicine shortages and grounded planes is too much for even the Tories to handle. I think there will be another extension to the transition period, but obviously it can't b called that - it will be rebranded like the "agreement in principle" on the Irish border.


I think HMG have been relying on the idea that a further extension would be always available as an off-ramp, but the EU seem to be not so keen, and might possibly prefer a cliff-edge, because it's not clear that extended offers a way forward, as opposed to just a delay.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Brie shortages are no biggie. Meds are a huge thing.


It's not just brie shortages, though, is it? If you wander around Lidl and look at the range of food that comes from the EU, there's all kinds of stuff. There is also British-grown food, but as pointed out, that's likely to go up in price as well - given that farmers are about to lose subsidies, it will have to anyway.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2020)

I'm looking forward to the... tomato-based economy that we've been aspiring to for so long.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> In the event of a no deal  there's a reasonable summary  here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cant access it boo.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I think HMG have been relying on the idea that a further extension would be always available as an off-ramp, but the EU seem to be not so keen, and might possibly prefer a cliff-edge, because it's not clear that it offers a way forward, as opposed to just a delay.


I agree it doesn't solve anything, but it also doesn't cause chaos - so that's preferable to everyone without swivel eyes.

The EU are obviously not dependent on us, but the very real hit that no deal would cause them will mean an extensions _is _always on the table, IMO.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I cant access it boo.


Ill see if I can cut and paste it


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The deadline for agreeing an extension to the transition period passed on june


There's no such thing as a deadline when it comes to these things. If the EU and the UK decided to extend, then they'll extend.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> There's no such thing as a deadline when it comes to these things. If the EU and the UK decided to extend, then they'll extend.


It's the end of the road.


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Yeah. Well, ready for 2021 harvest!


And these people who are going to do this, what land are they using and what is it currently used for? You need some pretty specialist conditions and apparatus for growing tomatoes. Or any other thing that is difficult to grow in the UK. We're good at growing daffodils down here, maybe we can eat those.


----------



## maomao (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Yeah. Well, ready for 2021 harvest!


Doubt it. The government could have spent 2020 handing out compost bins and getting people to build raised beds in their gardens, it would have been a brilliant use of lockdown but the free market won't take care of it. Especially with prices going up across the board, where's the motivation to produce and where's the land going to come from?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

I agree with Fez. There are still ways and means to get an extension that isn't called an extension. An interim agreement, for instance, in which the UK agrees for one or two years to abide by all EU standards in return for tariff-free trade, with in principle the option to renew or withdraw from it after that point. We'd probably still get a lot of the cunty new travel restrictions and work restrictions, so Johnson can wave those around to impress the people who are impressed by that kind of thing.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Poot said:


> And these people who are going to do this, what land are they using and what is it currently used for? You need some pretty specialist conditions and apparatus for growing tomatoes. Or any other thing that is difficult to grow in the UK. We're good at growing daffodils down here, maybe we can eat those.





maomao said:


> Doubt it. The government could have spent 2020 handing out compost bins and getting people to build raised beds in their gardens, it would have been a brilliant use of lockdown but the free market won't take care of it. Especially with prices going up across the board, where's the motivation to produce and where's the land going to come from?


Farmers rent land. Loads of landowners have threatened to give up after the EU tit is removed from their mouths.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with Fez. There are still ways and means to get an extension that isn't called an extension. An interim agreement, for instance, in which the UK agrees for one or two years to abide by all EU standards in return for tariff-free trade, with in principle the option to renew or withdraw from it after that point. We'd probably still get a lot of the cunty new travel restrictions and work restrictions, so Johnson can wave those around to impress the people who are impressed by that kind of thing.


The EU would demand billions and total compliance.


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Farmers rent land. Loads of landowners have threatened to give up after the EU tit is removed from their mouths.


Landowners don't give up land. It becomes more expensive if it looks like there might be demand for it.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's the end of the road.


And a cliff drop awaits.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

editor said:


> And a cliff drop awaits.


How will that look?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Poot said:


> Landowners don't give up land. It becomes more expensive if it looks like there might be demand for it.


You perhaps haven't thought this through.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> I agree it doesn't solve anything, but it also doesn't cause chaos - so that's preferable to everyone without swivel eyes.
> 
> The EU are obviously not dependent on us, but the very real hit that no deal would cause them will mean an extensions _is _always on the table, IMO.


To put it another way, I think the EU view is that the UK inevitably has to accept the deal because, apart from all the natural consequences, it is not currently anything close to logistically ready.

But, if the UK sniffs an extension, they will take it and they can spend that period getting ready (as opposed to rethinking), then at the end of it they might be able to refuse the deal. So, the EU is not going to allow an extension, which is why is has been very public about it's contingency offer. If there is no deal, that is the route that is left, not an extension.


----------



## Poot (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You perhaps haven't thought this through.


I work with landowners. I have thought it through.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat



> ‘no-deal’ exit from the Brexit transition period on January 1 will plunge the UK into a world of uncertainty as Boris Johnson pulls the plug on nearly 30 years of EU single market membership overnight. Here, a team of FT writers and specialists looks at consequences that are likely to flow from such a decision in nine sectors — from food to financial services and travel to medicines. The currency The first impact — which is likely to precede the January 1, 2021 departure date — is a sharp fall in the value of the pound. At its most extreme, analysts predict it could lose more than a fifth of its current value against both the dollar and the euro if talks break down irrevocably. Opinions differ on how low sterling could go. Jordan Rochester, a currency strategist at Nomura in London, predicts the pound could sink to near parity with the dollar, while Paul Robson, head of G10 currency strategy at NatWest Markets, is more optimistic, betting the pound may fall “to the low $1.20s”. Leaving without a deal would most likely give UK government bonds — known as gilts — a boost as investors seek a safe-haven, allowing the Treasury to borrow even more cheaply than it can currently. Eva Szalay and Tommy Stubbington
> 
> The City The financial services industry — the UK’s largest services export — is likely to weather the initial storm of a WTO-terms exit since it has been preparing for several years to leave on ‘no-deal’ terms. The City has tried to prepare itself © REUTERS Many companies have already set up legal offices in the UK and EU to cater to local customers and have begun moving people and business. Some more relocations would likely be triggered by a hard rupture. But no deal still jeopardises agreements to manage cross-border activity, from trading shares and derivatives to sharing data. How much business will leave London in the longer term is unknown. Philip Stafford
> 
> ...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The EU would demand billions and total compliance.


The total compliance bit is easy from a practical pov. The UK is already in total compliance.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

How will Macron appease his farmers, angry at the loss of access to selling in the UK?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> TopCat


Thanks.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The total compliance bit is easy from a practical pov. The UK is already in total compliance.


The billions though?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The EU would demand billions and total compliance.



That will probably happen anyway, and after a few months of no-deal the UK will be in even less of a position to say no than it now is.


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How will that look?


It'll look shit. It'll be shit for everyone  apart from the rich elite who will continue to profit from misery. And especially shit for musicians and the arts.

But at least we've got those British blue passports for all those journeys we can no longer take/afford.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The billions though?


Well Switzerland pays a lot less than Norway for its access. Both agree to free movement, which is an important part of the deal. A skilled negotiating team that sensitively builds trust and stresses common interests might... oh wait


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The billions though?


These billions?









						Brexit set to cost the UK more than £200 billion by the end of the year
					

The London Economic - The conflict between economic realism and political delusion continues to be unresolved- despite mounting evidence - Politics




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> TopCat


The greatest act of self sabotage in history. Utter fucking madness. What the hell is wrong with us?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How will Macron appease his farmers, angry at the loss of access to selling in the UK?


Probably with subsidy. But also the loss of access to the UK will coincide with increase in demand all over the rest of Europe, because no-one will want to buy British produce.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The greatest act of self sabotage in history. Utter fucking madness. What the hell is wrong with us?


Most were just getting crumbs from the plate. Many did not give a fuck about this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The greatest act of self sabotage in history. Utter fucking madness. What the hell is wrong with us?


Strikes me that they're burgling this through under the cover of the pandemic. I think the whole country would be up in arms, demos on the streets, etc, were it not for covid.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Probably with subsidy. But also the loss of access to the UK will coincide with increase in demand all over the rest of Europe, because no-one will want to buy British produce.


If patriotism and nationalism really rises to the surface here over produce who knows where it will go.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think the whole country would be up in arms, demos on the streets, etc, were it not for covid.


Doesn't seem likely. Peoples opinions haven't changed much in four years.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The greatest act of self sabotage in history. Utter fucking madness. What the hell is wrong with us?


I always thought that Fleetwood Mac's Tusk, the follow up to Rumours was acknowledged as that tbh


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> That will probably happen anyway, and after a few months of no-deal the UK will be in even less of a position to say no than it now is.


Well that would fuck Boris.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> There's no such thing as a deadline when it comes to these things. If the EU and the UK decided to extend, then they'll extend.



That's probably still true, but I get the impression patience is wearing pretty thin on the other side of the Channel.  They've never trusted Johnson, and they certainly don't after all the Internal Market Bill nonsense.   That's probably why they're insisting on so much being in a binding treaty now, rather than side notes and gentlemen's agreements to sort particular problems out further down the line.  Plus, Barnier said a couple of extensions ago, 'don't waste this time,' to which the British government responded by achieving nothing beyond yet more arguments.  From the EU's point of view you could see a case for getting it over with and letting Britain crawl back begging for a deal after a few months of disruption.  

I still think the odds are on a deal or some kind of extension, but the chances of a crash-out are rising fast now.  I remember someone writing back in 2016 - I think - that the EU won't throw Britain off the cliff, but ultimately won't stop it if it's determined to jump.  That point now looks to be nearly on us.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well that would fuck Boris.



In the same way as the referendum fucked Cameron.  Much good that did us.


----------



## Fez909 (Dec 12, 2020)

Raheem said:


> But, if the UK sniffs an extension, they will take it and they can spend that period getting ready (as opposed to rethinking), then at the end of it they might be able to refuse the deal.


How is this scenario worse for the EU than the current one?

1. Let the UK leave with no deal, no extension. Chaos everywhere, planes grounded, needless deaths from medicine shortages (assuming all the doomsday scenarios come true)
2. Give the UK an extension and time to sort its shit out. The UK spends two years preparing (lol), and then leaves with no deal.

Firstly, the EU doesn't want us to leave. So 2 more years of UK in(ish) the club is better than nothing. Especially as we'd have no voting/decision rights but will still have to abide by the rules.
Secondly, the EU does not want chaos on its doorstep. It doesn't want leaving the EU to look like an attractive proposition, but it also doesn't want the doomsday scenario. It's not good for business on either side of the channel, nor is it good for the Irish.

So even if your scenario is likely to happen, it's still the best option for the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

The UK have said they wont be ramping up checks at the ports so unless the roads in France are blocked, we still get our Lidl.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

I await a statement from the Irish in the morning.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If patriotism and nationalism really rises to the surface here over produce who knows where it will go.


in the same direction its already going


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> in the same direction its already going


Is there anti uk sentiment in france at the moment?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Strikes me that they're burgling this through under the cover of the pandemic. I think the whole country would be up in arms, demos on the streets, etc, were it not for covid.



Not sure about that.  It'd certainly be higher up the agenda and people would be more active on both sides, but I think it'd take a lot bigger and more visible an economic hit to get people out on the streets in much greater numbers than most of the demos last year.  I think the political atmosphere would be rather more like it was around the time parliament was prorogued.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Is there anti uk sentiment in france at the moment?


According to a friend who was back in France recently, there is still a fair bit of bewilderment over this obvious act of self-harm. But, as here, the primary concern of most French people is getting through the pandemic. Covid doesn't just provide cover for Johnson.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Is there anti uk sentiment in france at the moment?


of sorry i thought you were talking about the UK

French fisherman have long ago said theyd block french ports to stop uk fish being landed if unhappy with the deal, so there is that
The fish traffic tends to be in that direction


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> of sorry i thought you were talking about the UK
> 
> French fisherman have long ago said theyd block french ports to stop uk fish being landed if unhappy with the deal, so there is that
> The fish traffic tends to be in that direction


Plus Macron has been using the pandemic pretty cynically as a means to squash the yellow vests movement. It's not easy to tell exactly how things are in France atm for that reason.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Is there anti uk sentiment in france at the moment?



Quite the opposite in Portugal 









						Portugal intent on ‘rolling out red carpet’ to Brits after Brexit no matter what EU Covid rules imply - Portugal Resident
					

Portugal intent on ‘rolling out red carpet’ to Brits after Brexit no matter what EU rules imply.




					www.portugalresident.com


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Quite the opposite in Portugal
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tbf Portugal won't have to deal with probable port delays or restrain its fishermen from playing dodgems with British fishing boats.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Strikes me that they're burgling this through under the cover of the pandemic. I think the whole country would be up in arms, demos on the streets, etc, were it not for covid.


the master criminal always makes one fatal error and the government's is discussing this with the media and telling industry to prepare for no deal


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Tbf Portugal won't have to deal with probable port delays or restrain its fishermen from playing dodgems with British fishing boats.


Delays are part of Portuguese culture tbh


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

I see the Krauts are at it


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I see the Krauts are at it



Nice to see the German sense of humour


----------



## weltweit (Dec 12, 2020)

So, it looks like we are leaving on WTO terms, this begs the question, what will Nissan do now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

weltweit said:


> So, it looks like we are leaving on WTO terms, this begs the question, what will Nissan do now?


Drive off into the sunset


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Nice to see the German sense of humour


Its what the EU is all about imo


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Is there anti uk sentiment in france at the moment?


Can't imagine I'd be top chuffed with the Johnson regime if I lived in Pas de Calais, tbh.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

weltweit said:


> So, it looks like we are leaving on WTO terms, this begs the question, what will Nissan do now?



Close, along with most other large car plants.  Honda's already going (ostensibly not Brexit-related, but if you believe that you'll believe anything), Toyota have said that Burnaston will be in serious trouble unless frictionless trade is retained, and the same almost certainly goes for BMW at Cowley and at least one of the GM plants.  That sort of manufacturing just isn't going to be viable in a world of tariffs and customs queues.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Close, along with most other large car plants.  Honda's already going (ostensibly not Brexit-related, but if you believe that you'll believe anything), Toyota have said that Burnaston will be in serious trouble unless frictionless trade is retained, and the same almost certainly goes for BMW at Cowley and at least one of the GM plants.  That sort of manufacturing just isn't going to be viable in a world of tariffs and customs queues.


We can all drive a Morgan, then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Can't imagine I'd be top chuffed with the Johnson regime if I lived in Pas de Calais, tbh.
> 
> View attachment 243164


I can't think of anywhere I might live and have a better opinion of him

But if he was in the south Atlantic I'd be happier


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Strikes me that they're burgling this through under the cover of the pandemic. I think the whole country would be up in arms, demos on the streets, etc, were it not for covid.


The people don't give a fuck. I do wonder though if years of destroying collectivism and society in favour of consumerist individualism might eventually pay out a kind of ironic dividend in that when the latter is even slightly disrupted, maybe that's when it finally kicks off.  But shithole Britain is real and I doubt it. I don't know, there's a lot of wildcards. For one, the people that support the fucking thing don't actually give a fuck about the device itself, they just want something that isn't the status quo, but I'm pretty sure they don't ultimately want to fly the flag for 'much worse' either.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not everything surely? Stuff produced and sold here will not necessarily go up in price?
> Tariffs on IKEA furniture and Mercedes cars and other eu imports. All the stuff we get from china will keep flowing.



We don’t make or grow enough here. I don’t  think the shops ever think twice about whacking up prices. Aside from on milk which we already fuck over farmers for cheap stuff.

Odds are good we’ll get quite a lot of crap from the US eventually.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The UK have said they wont be ramping up checks at the ports so unless the roads in France are blocked, we still get our Lidl.


Not possible, under WTO rules if you let one country in without a tariff the others can sue.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 12, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Not possible, under WTO rules if you let one country in without a tariff the others can sue.



From what I understand the WTO rules along with IMF and world bank are primarily just another way to fuck over third world countries.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> From what I understand the WTO rules along with IMF and world bank are primarily just another way to fuck over third world countries.


So we have nothing to worry about.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

Fez909 said:


> How is this scenario worse for the EU than the current one?
> 
> 1. Let the UK leave with no deal, no extension. Chaos everywhere, planes grounded, needless deaths from medicine shortages (assuming all the doomsday scenarios come true)
> 2. Give the UK an extension and time to sort its shit out. The UK spends two years preparing (lol), and then leaves with no deal.


You're presenting it as if there are only two possible outcomes. The EU wants the UK to sign the deal, and estimates that there is no real choice. But an extension, if offered, would provide a real choice.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

I cant see the Spanish, Greeks or Portugese supporting EU measures that would reduce UK tourism.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I see the Krauts are at it


do you really think of german people as "krauts"?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I cant see the Spanish, Greeks or Portugese supporting EU measures that would reduce UK tourism.



But, they might argue, the UK has taken those measures for itself and there's nothing they can do about it.  That's what most European governments think, and there's no serious groundswell of opinion the other way.  There's still euroscepticism on the mainland, but after watching Britain stagger out and crash into every obstacle, like a drunk at chucking-out time, no-one's seriously talking about leaving.  One of the many ironies of Brexit is that it's made a break-up of the hated supra-state much less likely.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But, they might argue, the UK has taken those measures for itself and there's nothing they can do about it.  That's what most European governments think, and there's no serious groundswell of opinion the other way.  There's still euroscepticism on the mainland, but after watching Britain stagger out and crash into every obstacle, like a drunk at chucking-out time, no-one's seriously talking about leaving.  One of the many ironies of Brexit is that it's made a break-up of the hated supra-state much less likely.


So you think the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Greeks will swallow the huge drop in tourist income in order to show unity with their EU colleagues?
I cant see the Irish sticking tight to the common line for long either.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So you think the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Greeks will swallow the huge drop in tourist income in order to show unity with their EU colleagues?
> I cant see the Irish sticking tight to the common line for long either.



Yes.  There's precisely no sign of anything else happening.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So you think the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Greeks will swallow the huge drop in tourist income in order to show unity with their EU colleagues?


I don't think they're being asked to, are they? At the moment, we're off season and in the middle of a pandemic, so keeping the Brits out is only going to make a marginal difference.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

No UK tourists will be going to EU destinations after 01/01/21 for the foreseeable...


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> So you think the Spanish, the Portuguese and the Greeks will swallow the huge drop in tourist income in order to show unity with their EU colleagues?
> I cant see the Irish sticking tight to the common line for long either.


What's Ireland got to do with it?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

mauvais said:


> What's Ireland got to do with it?


They have arguably the most to lose out of the EU states.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They have arguably the most to lose.


From what?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

mauvais said:


> From what?


No deal.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No deal.


Why?


----------



## editor (Dec 12, 2020)

You can almost hear the rest of the world laughing at us. Fuck cunting Brexit. First it empowers the racists ad xenophobes and now it's getting all the military types moist in their gun portals. 



> The news that four 80-metre Royal Navy gunships are on standby to guard British waters from EU trawlers in the event of a no-deal Brexit has been met with huge backlash, with a former Tory chairman accusing Boris Johnson of behaving like an “English nationalist”.
> 
> 
> The Ministry of Defence (MoD) have confirmed the move, amid further reports suggesting that military helicopter surveillance will be made available and that ministers are considering beefing-up Navy powers in legislation to authorise them to board and arrest fishermen found to be contravening post-Brexit rules.
> ...











						Government Slammed For 'Irresponsible' No-Deal Brexit Gunships Plan
					

As one senior Tory put it, "this isn't Elizabethan times anymore".




					www.huffingtonpost.co.uk


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 12, 2020)

Seeing the Tory filth consume its own kind in a cannibal frenzy would be a positive outcome ?


----------



## gosub (Dec 12, 2020)

editor said:


> You can almost hear the rest of the world laughing at us. Fuck cunting Brexit. First it empowers the racists ad xenophobes and now it's getting all the military types moist in their gun portals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



At least Ellwood has got his head screwed on.  RN is not going to fire on unarmed fishermen and all these headlines of gunboats - French fishermen don't even have to leave French coastal waters to cause us serious problems


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

Brexit fishing row evokes memories of 'cod wars' with Iceland
					

News that Royal Navy ships may be deployed has parallels with dispute that lasted from 1950s to 1970s




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> do you really think of german people as "krauts"?


Dont want to come over as all Stewart Lee but I can explain the joke if you want


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No UK tourists will be going to EU destinations after 01/01/21 for the foreseeable...
> 
> View attachment 243196


EU member states can override the European council recommendations should they wish to. Portugal will , they've never had a ban on UK tourism , they don't even insist on a covid test.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> EU member states can override the European council recommendations should they wish to. Portugal will , they've never had a ban on UK tourism , they don't even insist on a covid test.


I see.
But then again, for 34 years UK tourists have visited as fellow EC/EU citizens or citizens with transitionary rights; that changes at midnight on the 31st, and who knows what dynamics may be at play within the 27 by then?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I see.
> But then again, for 34 years UK tourists have visited as fellow EC/EU citizens or citizens with transitionary rights; that changes at midnight on the 31st, and who knows what dynamics may be at play within the 27 by then?


The dynamic will be please come and bring your wallets.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The dynamic will be please come and bring your wallets.


Maybe, but we're not even at Sunday yet, let alone the Gunboat stage.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, but we're not even at Sunday yet, let alone the Gunboat stage.


Fair enough. 

One pundit was remarking today that the French Navy was formed in the thirteenth century after rows between French and English fishermen.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I see.
> But then again, for 34 years UK tourists have visited as fellow EC/EU citizens or citizens with transitionary rights; that changes at midnight on the 31st, and who knows what dynamics may be at play within the 27 by then?


Of course it might play out differently across different states especially with those that have a large amount of UK visitors and tbh although the vaccines will begin to roll out in the EU next year we dont know what the covid situation will be. However states like Portugal are considering things like the following ;   special UK passport holder lines at airports (to help Brits from suffering delays ; health passports (to make up for the loss of the European Health Insurance Cards) and the waiving of any visa requirements.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I see.
> But then again, for 34 years UK tourists have visited as fellow EC/EU citizens or citizens with transitionary rights; that changes at *midnight* on the 31st, and who knows what dynamics may be at play within the 27 by then?


2300UTC 31st Dec (0000CET 1st Jan).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Of course it might play out differently across different states especially with those that have a large amount of UK visitors and tbh although the vaccines will begin to roll out in the EU next year we dont know what the covid situation will be. However states kije Portugal are considering things like the following ;   special UK passport holder lines at airports (to help Brits from suffering delays ; health passports (to make up for the loss of the European Health Insurance Cards) and the waiving of any visa requirements.


As with pretty much everything to do with brexit, the very best we can hope for is something that is as good as it was pre-brexit, but that isn't guaranteed.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

2hats said:


> 2300UTC 31st Dec (0000CET 1st Jan).


I sit corrected.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

2hats said:


> 2300UTC 31st Dec (0000CET 1st Jan).


Rule takers to the last


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, but we're not even at Sunday yet, let alone the Gunboat stage.


The 21st century navy is a gunboat


----------



## Supine (Dec 12, 2020)

2hats said:


> 2300UTC 31st Dec (0000CET 1st Jan).



Top pedantry


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I see the Krauts are at it




An amusing substitution of letters! Ha! Ha! Ha!

Is it too late to vote leave?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Brexit fishing row evokes memories of 'cod wars' with Iceland
> 
> 
> News that Royal Navy ships may be deployed has parallels with dispute that lasted from 1950s to 1970s
> ...


Norway could ban UK and EU from its waters 









						Norway says it could block EU, British fishing vessels from Jan 1
					

Norway may stop British and EU vessels fishing in its waters from Jan. 1, its fisheries minister said on Friday, as talks on the management of common North Sea stocks have been held up by London's protracted Brexit standoff with Brussels.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 12, 2020)

They're all fighting over the what, nine fish that are actually left alive in the north sea?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Norway could ban UK and EU from its waters
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting that the Guardian sees 'parallels' when the UK role is completely reversed as the sovereign nation defending its claimed waters against other nations' fleets.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 12, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Interesting that the Guardian sees 'parallels' when the UK role is completely reversed as the sovereign nation defending its claimed waters against other nations' fleets.



It's a little like how they have to work in reference to the _Titanic_ disaster whenever a ship goes bump; just lazy journalism.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 12, 2020)

I wonder if Britain First will donate their anti refugee boat to keeping our waters free


----------



## A380 (Dec 12, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Now we are staring at no deal, hyperbole aside, what do you all predict will actually happen?



It’s not ‘no deal’ it’s an ‘Australian style deal’ so we will have to adapt to a diet of Vegimite, Tim Tams and all the wallabies we can eat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

A380 said:


> It’s not ‘no deal’ it’s an ‘Australian style deal’ so we will have to adapt to a diet of Vegimite, Tim Tams and all the wallabies we can eat.


I'll put another shrimp on the barbie for you


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I wonder if Britain First will donate their anti refugee boat to keeping our waters free


They've fled to France on it


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 12, 2020)

I bet we're not getting any more sunshine with this 'Australia'-style 'solution'. It's just all lies. It really means that soon we'll be paying people twenty quid to come here.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 12, 2020)

No, I shouldn't be here.
None of it makes sense, but the wealthy will do fine I'm sure.
Not much optimism.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 12, 2020)

Brexit: Cornwall to face 'significant' funding cut
					

The county could receive just 5% of replacement funding, according to a local councillor.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Smangus (Dec 12, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Brexit: Cornwall to face 'significant' funding cut
> 
> 
> The county could receive just 5% of replacement funding, according to a local councillor.
> ...



Johnson in lying bastard shocker.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 12, 2020)

Can we start calling it a ‘Venezuela style’ deal rather than an Australian one, just to own the swivel-eyed bellends or something? It’s not incorrect.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 12, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Dont want to come over as all Stewart Lee but I can explain the joke if you want


I think it would be useful for you to explain why you chose to use that “joke”.


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 13, 2020)

The issue of obligation to make adjustments to UK regulations and standards is for the restitution of benefits of free access to EU common market, which is a reasonable condition that can be accommodated without the agitation of affront.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 13, 2020)

AnandLeo said:


> The issue of obligation to make adjustments to UK regulations and standards is for the restitution of benefits of free access to EU common market, which is a reasonable condition that can be accommodated without the agitation of affront.


If I understand you correctly, about the potential future application of market controls like future tariffs in response to changes, I don't have a problem with it.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Times reporting that ministers have told supermarkets to stockpile food. That's brilliant, isn't it, expecting supermarkets that work on a JIT delivery model to magic up months' worth of warehouse capacity in the middle of the Christmas rush.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Times reporting that ministers have told supermarkets to stockpile food. That's brilliant, isn't it, expecting supermarkets that work on a JIT delivery model to magic up months' worth of warehouse capacity in the middle of the Christmas rush.


So No Deal day dawns with another blame opportunity being teed up.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Times reporting that ministers have told supermarkets to stockpile food. That's brilliant, isn't it, expecting supermarkets that work on a JIT delivery model to magic up months' worth of warehouse capacity in the middle of the Christmas rush.



And portrays a complete lack of understanding how supermarkets work.

Supermarket stock doesn’t hang around waiting for weeks and months.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> And portrays a complete lack of understanding how supermarkets work.
> 
> Supermarket stock doesn’t hang around waiting for weeks and months.



Understanding?!  We don't need understanding!  We just need to _believe_!


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Are not the delays at ports due in part to supermarkets stocking up?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Eating seasonal veg wont be too traumatic.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

It's the meds that bother me.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's the meds that bother me.


Got mine delivered last week, I should be OK for about 12 weeks. After that fuck knows.
I’m secretly hoping that the brand I have has supply issues and they switch me to a different one as these injection pens really fucking hurt compared to the old ones I used to get, enough for me to make excuses for delaying when I use them. Got switched over when I moved to a new area and different hospital. Could be a small silver lining in it for me.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Got mine delivered last week, I should be OK for about 12 weeks. After that fuck knows.
> I’m secretly hoping that the brand I have has supply issues and they switch me to a different one as these injection pens really fucking hurt compared to the old ones I used to get, enough for me to make excuses for delaying when I use them. Got switched over when I moved to a new area and different hospital. Could be a small silver lining in it for me.


Hope all will be good.


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Eating seasonal veg wont be too traumatic.


But we’re not even self sufficient in turnips.








						Fresh carrots, turnips and similar edible roots: import value 2001-2021 Statistic | Statista
					

In 2021, imports of fresh or chilled carrots, turnips, salad beetroot, salsify, celeriac, radishes and similar edible roots into the United Kingdom (UK) were valued at approximately 52 million British pounds.




					www.statista.com


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> But we’re not even self sufficient in turnips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I can see the daily express headlines now.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Some remainers want food to run out. For shortages to predominantly affect leave areas, a collective punishment. 

They may get what they want but its unseemly to be seen lusting after harm to others.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Some remainers want food to run out. For shortages to predominantly affect leave areas, a collective punishment.
> 
> They may get what they want but its unseemly to be seen lusting after harm to others.



I read that as ham.

Would lust after some ham right now tbh.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I read that as ham.
> 
> Would lust after some ham right now tbh.


On buttered toast with a poached egg?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> On buttered toast with a poached egg?



Unbuttered, cheesy omelette ta


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2020)

A little bit of toast


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Some remainers want food to run out. For shortages to predominantly affect leave areas, a collective punishment.
> 
> They may get what they want but its unseemly to be seen lusting after harm to others.


I really really do not want food food shortages, or price increases. I get that there must be some people all ready to gloat and go i told you so whilst buying the extra expensive turnips but don't think its many. Especially after the year we've all had. 
More to the point, if we "remainers' hadn't wasted all that time & energy trying to reverse the decision, if they had stopped calling themselves remainers but instead made some coherent concerted argument for a soft brexit / customs union or whatever i don't think we'd be here now. There's plenty of blame to go round for whatever happens next imo.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Some remainers want food to run out. For shortages to predominantly affect leave areas, a collective punishment.
> 
> They may get what they want but its unseemly to be seen lusting after harm to others.


We did not 
That is why we voted remain


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We did not
> That is why we voted remain


Thankfully remainers are on a spectrum. Philosophical at the crazed loon end and others, perhaps considering the impact of the peoples vote campaign heading towards the other end.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Thankfully remainers are on a spectrum. Philosophical at the crazed loon end and others, perhaps considering the impact of the peoples vote campaign heading towards the other end.




We are all loons mate


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We are all loons mate


Big hug xx


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I can see the daily express headlines now.



"DICK TURNIP: Crazed EU tariff plan branded HIGHWAY ROBBERY by veg-loving Britons."


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

It's quite heartening to see the tories sticking the knife in each other this morning. There will be lots more of this in the coming weeks. Christmas cheer.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Eating seasonal veg wont be too traumatic.


Try tzatiki with sprouts


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> More to the point, if we "remainers' hadn't wasted all that time & energy trying to reverse the decision, if they had stopped calling themselves remainers but instead made some coherent concerted argument for a soft brexit / customs union or whatever i don't think we'd be here now.



Oh don't go down this rabbit hole.  This is just the latest attempt by the hardline leave types to blame everyone and anyone apart from themselves for the shit-show they've created.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> "DICK TURNIP: Crazed EU tariff plan branded HIGHWAY ROBBERY by veg-loving Britons."


I would bet most Brits haven't eaten a turnip in the last year.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Oh don't go down this rabbit hole.  This is just the latest attempt by the hardline leave types to blame everyone and anyone apart from themselves for the shit-show they've created.


For rabbit hole read self awareness.


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Oh don't go down this rabbit hole.  This is just the latest attempt by the hardline leave types to blame everyone and anyone apart from themselves for the shit-show they've created.


Nah i think its true. This wasn't inevitable and the 49% could definitely have prevented no deal if that had been the aim instead of marching up and down for years demanding that we don't leave at all, I reckon.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I would bet most Brits haven't eaten a turnip in the last year.


If our household is typical (hmmmnn?) you'd be wrong. They're an ideal substitute for bamboo shoots in a Chinese.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> If our household is typical (hmmmnn?) you'd be wrong. They're an ideal substitute for bamboo shoots in a Chinese.


I love them but most dont.


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

i haven't eaten a turnip for years. Its going to be great.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> More to the point, if we "remainers' hadn't wasted all that time & energy trying to reverse the decision, if they had stopped calling themselves remainers but instead made some coherent concerted argument for a soft brexit / customs union or whatever i don't think we'd be here now. There's plenty of blame to go round for whatever happens next imo.


If we are remainers then who are they remainers? And if it was so easy to change things by changing names from remainer to eg feta buccaneer I think it would have been tried


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> feta buccaneer


Fabulous!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's quite heartening to see the tories sticking the knife in each other this morning. There will be lots more of this in the coming weeks. Christmas cheer.


On one level, yeah...but it's really only a subset of what this has always been; one vision of neoliberal acceleration versus another...and it's all too late now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> i haven't eaten a turnip for years. Its going to be great.


Yeh. It'll be like the bits in the auld stories when people scavenge in woods and live on roots.. A reet good time.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> Nah i think its true. This wasn't inevitable and the 49% could definitely have prevented no deal if that had been the aim instead of marching up and down for years demanding that we don't leave at all, I reckon.



Not sure anyone who's not an MP could do anything once the vote was taken. They seem to have decided it amongst themselves. Apart from the last election perhaps.


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> If we are remainers then who are they remainers? And if it was so easy to change things by changing names from remainer to eg feta buccaneer I think it would have been tried


I think that was me trying to say that before the referendum I was ok to go with the label remainer, afterwards it should have changed to something like customs alignment-er.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> They seem to have decided it amongst themselves. .



Habits are hard to break


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> Nah i think its true. This wasn't inevitable and the 49% could definitely have prevented no deal if that had been the aim instead of marching up and down for years demanding that we don't leave at all, I reckon.



But people weren't just 'marching up and down demanding we don't leave at all.'  'Remain' ran the gamut from hardline revokers to those who did try and engineer a softer Brexit.  But that wasn't a realistic prospect as soon as May took it off the table in 2016.

e2a - some good points on the debates in 2017-9 in Chris Grey's latest blogpost.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> For rabbit hole read self awareness.



The irony...


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But people weren't just 'marching up and down demanding we don't leave at all.'  'Remain' ran the gamut from hardline revokers to those who did try and engineer a softer Brexit.  But that wasn't a realistic prospect as soon as May took it off the table in 2016.


Fair enough. I didn’t notice that very much apart from david gauke and a few like that who saw years ago that no deal was very likely.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 13, 2020)

Millions of people marched and signed petitions  from 2016 to at least the end of 2018 to say that Brexit wasn’t working and we needed a second referendum to undo it.  That was definitely the face of remainerdom.  Soft Brexit was a whisper in the storm.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Millions of people marched and signed petitions  from 2016 to at least the end of 2018 to say that Brexit wasn’t working and we needed a second referendum to undo it.  That was definitely the face of remainerdom.  Soft Brexit was a whisper in the storm.


Without re-running thousands of pages of threads again...there was always logic behind the 'pure' binary positions of 'Leave' (meaning leaving) and 'Remain' (meaning not leaving) given the binary, single referendum put before the electorate. Cameron did not offer any halfway house.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Without re-running thousands of pages of threads again...there was always logic behind the 'pure' binary positions of 'Leave' (meaning leaving) and 'Remain' (meaning not leaving) given the binary, single referendum put before the electorate. Cameron did not offer any halfway house.


If that’s true then there can be no complaints now about no deal.

It’s not true, though.  All the advertising and literature at the time made it clear that “leave” would most likely mean remaining in the customs union. We all even received a printed leaflet about it through our letterboxes.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

kabbes said:


> If that’s true then there can be no complaints now about no deal.
> 
> It’s not true, though.  All the advertising and literature at the time made it clear that “leave” would most likely mean remaining in the customs union. We all even received a printed leaflet about it through our letterboxes.


There are always voters who choose to believe what they're told. Despite the eventual logic of 'Leave' meaning actually leaving the supra state, I don't agree that folk can't complain at the outcome achieved by the liars. Remember that 49.5% of the population couldn't or didn't even participate in the plebiscite.


----------



## agricola (Dec 13, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Millions of people marched and signed petitions  from 2016 to at least the end of 2018 to say that Brexit wasn’t working and we needed a second referendum to undo it.  That was definitely the face of remainerdom.  Soft Brexit was a whisper in the storm.



It was, but thats because so many people poured so much effort into keeping it quiet - the ERG for obvious reasons, but on the other side the anti-Corb faction, the SNP and the LDs all found differing reasons to back a policy that was never going to come into being without changing the government.   

A soft Brexit was eminently achievable, but it would have interfered with too many people's careers and so they rejected it.  Later most of those people lost their careers and went to work in the usual posts.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Thankfully remainers are on a spectrum. Philosophical at the crazed loon end and others, perhaps considering the impact of the peoples vote campaign heading towards the other end.



Leavers are spectrum too.Intresting piece in the Sunday Times today - Divded we stand.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Leavers are spectrum too.Intresting piece in the Sunday Times today - Divded we stand.


Not really; the single-stage, binary referendum afforded no 'spectrum' of nuance; you either voted for neoliberalism within or without a supra-state or declined the opportunity to choose either of those alternatives.


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> We did not
> That is why we voted remain


There are certainly a few who seem to embrace every piece of bad news as an opportunity to say "I told you so".

And one Remainer in particular who has repeated posted about how he hopes the lights will go out in NI on the first day of the New Year, although thankfully he's a bit of an aberration...


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> But people weren't just 'marching up and down demanding we don't leave at all.'  'Remain' ran the gamut from hardline revokers to those who did try and engineer a softer Brexit.  But that wasn't a realistic prospect as soon as May took it off the table in 2016.
> 
> e2a - some good points on the debates in 2017-9 in Chris Grey's latest blogpost.


That’s a good clear eyed bit of writing. It’s true the problem with hindsight is that it forgets it is just that, hindsight. Also I forgot how may sold her deal as either this, or else no deal or no brexit, giving pretty much everyone a good reason to oppose it.


----------



## grit (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I cant see the Irish sticking tight to the common line for long either.



Despite how bad a no deal exit will be for Ireland, there is precisely a fuck all chance of us stepping out of line with the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Leavers are spectrum too.Intresting piece in the Sunday Times today - Divded we stand.


Can you cut and paste it please? Or summarise?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

This is after the £350m for the NHS I assume?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> That’s a good clear eyed bit of writing. It’s true the problem with hindsight is that it forgets it is just that, hindsight. Also I forgot how may sold her deal as either this, or else no deal or no brexit, giving pretty much everyone a good reason to oppose it.



Chris Grey's blog has been the best rolling analysis of events since 2016 IMO.  I don't always agree with him - he's 'hard remain' - but as an analysis of the political machinations it's unparalleled.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> But we’re not even self sufficient in turnips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perfect chance for a back to the land /cut food miles movement to prosper.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

grit said:


> Despite how bad a no deal exit will be for Ireland, there is precisely a fuck all chance of us stepping out of line with the EU.


Thanking you for on the spot reportage mate. Happy Christmas btw x


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

Best to do a runner lads 









						The Brexiters Who Fled Britain – Byline Times
					

With more jobs shipped abroad by the very people who supported leaving the EU, the Byline Times Team considers which members of the Brexit battalion have moved their residences or businesses to other shores




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2020)

Not gonna lie...the only news I've paid attention to this year has been Covid-related, BLM, (and the US ejection, for about two weeks). 

Genuinely didn't realise the UK was facing a No Deal Brexit.

Is getting some kind of deal done literally what Johnson campaigned on a year ago? And has claimed he had in hand ("oven-ready" deals etc)?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Perfect chance for a back to the land /cut food miles movement to prosper.


Like the end of _Threads_.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. It'll be like the bits in the auld stories when people scavenge in woods and live on roots.. A reet good time.


The foraging thread would change a bit if it was supplying core meals.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Like the end of _Threads_.


Looks interesting I quite like those end of the world /apocalyptic BBC stuff. I'll put it on my watch list


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Looks interesting I quite like those end of the world /apocalyptic BBC stuff. I'll put it on my watch list


Like The Omega Man with less turnips?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Looks interesting I quite like those end of the world /apocalyptic BBC stuff. I'll put it on my watch list


You've never seen it? Fucking hell, are you in for a treat


----------



## mauvais (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Looks interesting I quite like those end of the world /apocalyptic BBC stuff. I'll put it on my watch list


It's showing on BBC News in January.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2020)

mauvais said:


> It's showing on BBC News in January.


Presented by Dara O'Braian and H from Steps. Threads - Live!


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

mauvais said:


> It's showing on BBC News in January.


On rolling news.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Is getting some kind of deal done literally what Johnson campaigned on a year ago? And has claimed he had in hand ("oven-ready" deals etc)?



Yes.  He was lying.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Going to find that film later. I love a post apocalyptic movie.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Yes.  He was lying.


Perhaps we could just flag up the rare instances where he's telling the truth


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Yes.  He was lying.


Plus the EU claimed for four years that they weren't hungry and did not like custard.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> Nah i think its true. This wasn't inevitable and the 49% could definitely have prevented no deal if that had been the aim instead of marching up and down for years demanding that we don't leave at all, I reckon.


No deal didn’t seem likely until recently, at the last election Johnson was going on about having an oven ready deal lined up. Saying you wanted a soft brexit would just play into his hands.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Plus the EU claimed for four years that they weren't hungry and did not like custard.


Angela Merkel lives on little else


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Yes.  He was lying.


Will he now blame the impending societal collapse on the EU's inexplicable decision not to be dry-fucked with a smile?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Did anyone see Raab on the Marr show this morning? Wondering if he is going to lead the gunboat charge?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Perfect chance for a back to the land /cut food miles movement to prosper.


_back to the land _has something of the 'Year Zero' about it; potentially quite worrying for those of us that wear spectacles.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 13, 2020)

It's almost as though Johnson and his cronies actually _wanted_ to crash out without a deal having insisted for years they'd got/would have one to avoid awkward questions


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Did anyone see Raab on the Marr show this morning? Wondering if he is going to lead the gunboat charge?


He couldn't lead a conga line


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> _back to the land _has something of the 'Year Zero' about it; potentially quite worrying for those of us that wear spectacles.


As long as you can see your spade comrade all will be prosperous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> _back to the land _has something of the 'Year Zero' about it; potentially quite worrying for those of us that wear spectacles.


Yeh year zero will be Johnson and his cronies trying to raise mung beans on the Thatcher peninsula


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

S☼I said:


> It's almost as though Johnson and his cronies actually _wanted_ to crash out without a deal having insisted for years they'd got/would have one to avoid awkward questions


I dont think Boris wanted no deal. He will increasingly realise just how fucked he is. 
He cant accept the EU terms and survive. 

Leaving without a deal will severly damage the tories and his reputation for financial good husbandry,  more so than back in Lawson's day and the ERM debacle. 

He has to move, and all possible moves lead to Boris leaving no 10 crying.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh year zero will be Johnson and his cronies trying to raise mung beans on the Thatcher peninsula


Which foul spit of land will this training ground be sited upon?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> _back to the land _has something of the 'Year Zero' about it; potentially quite worrying for those of us that wear spectacles.


I'll  speak to our  PR company  ECO,  as soon as they come back from their team building event of  grouse hunting


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

The can cannot be booted much further.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps we could just flag up the rare instances where he's telling the truth



That would be rather pointless, wouldn't it: there aren't any!


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

The BBC reports that it all hinges on a call between Boris and Ursula and that this is scheduled for 11am. 

Are we on the same timeline? I would laugh if the call is booked in for when her lunch is on the table.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 13, 2020)

Just invested in some shares of my mum's allotment and some turnip seeds. Looks like a sure bet from where I'm standing, so I'm bound to make a killing in the post Brexit turnip market due to the likely demand. 

Thanks for this fantastic opportunity to make millions from a root based economy, free from EU meddling Johnson and co.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Can you cut and paste it please? Or summarise?



Revisted a couple of 2016 focus groups - very little voter remorse. Few expect deal and critical of UK politicians handling and government advice, all expecting short time pain but underlying cope cos have to. Seriously entrenched is about 66%


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Not gonna lie...the only news I've paid attention to this year has been Covid-related, BLM, (and the US ejection, for about two weeks).
> 
> Genuinely didn't realise the UK was facing a No Deal Brexit.
> 
> Is getting some kind of deal done literally what Johnson campaigned on a year ago? And has claimed he had in hand ("oven-ready" deals etc)?



Leaving in the middle of a pandemic is fucking stupid and I'm pretty sure the rest if the EU would take an extension in order to deal with important crisis over this shambles. Farage and co wouldn't so Boris De Offal presses on regardless.

Which just leads the other EU leaders to look tired and say let's get it over with.

The oven ready deal is apparently not The Deal and in fact deals with the withdrawal agreement not the trade deal with the EU. But the messaging was exceptionally ambiguous and if your trying to say it was about the WA your an idiot, it was always pushed as "this is oven ready, we're good to go, get brexit done with Boris one last heave"


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Revisted a couple of 2016 focus groups - very little voter remorse. Few expect deal and critical of UK politicians handling and government advice, all expecting short time pain but underlying cope cos have to. Seriously entrenched is about 66%


Many thanks.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Perfect chance for a back to the land /cut food miles movement to prosper.



Would be nice, suspect Kenya will be be the short term victor


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps we could just flag up the rare instances where he's telling the truth


I think Johnson only tells the truth on those few occasions when he confesses to lying.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Would be nice, suspect Kenya will be be the short term victor


Just thinking of vegetables post xmas that I've seen from outside the EU, beans, mange tout from Africa, asparagus from Peru, carrots from South Africa , Australian Brussel Sprouts , Potatoes from Egypt  etc.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

Smangus said:


> Just invested in some shares of my mum's allotment and some turnip seeds. Looks like a sure bet from where I'm standing, so I'm bound to make a killing in the post Brexit turnip market due to the likely demand.
> 
> Thanks for this fantastic opportunity to make millions from a root based economy, free from EU meddling Johnson and co.



Thanks, just reminded me to order my seed for next year. I note theres a lot more out of stock (and failed notices) than usually are.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Leaving in the middle of a pandemic is fucking stupid and I'm pretty sure the rest if the EU would take an extension in order to deal with important crisis over this shambles. Farage and co wouldn't so Boris De Offal presses on regardless.
> 
> Which just leads the other EU leaders to look tired and say let's get it over with.
> 
> The oven ready deal is apparently not The Deal and in fact deals with the withdrawal agreement not the trade deal with the EU. But the messaging was exceptionally ambiguous and if your trying to say it was about the WA your an idiot, it was always pushed as "this is oven ready, we're good to go, get brexit done with Boris one last heave"



This short term extension to deal with the pandemic. Obviously going to take a bit of Keynesianism as an economic defibrillator would you be thinking the UK will be a net benefactor or contributor to that?


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Just thinking of vegetables post xmas that I've seen from outside the EU, beans, mange tout from Africa, asparagus from Peru, carrots from South Africa , Australian Brussel Sprouts , Potatoes from Egypt  etc.



Exactly, and no shortage of slots at airports.  Food miles wise will be horrific but they are geared for that type as is


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> This short term extension to deal with the pandemic. Obviously going to take a bit of Keynesianism as an economic defibrillator would you be thinking the UK will be a net benefactor or contributor to that?



Right now my feelings about the UK in general can be summed up as I don't give a fuck what the shit hole does it'll always disappoint me.

I've always been ambivalent about this country the last couple of years has tipped me over into burn the place down and start again.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

We import veg from Aus? Really?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We import veg from Aus? Really?



It's a global world. It's also why parties don't want you to look to closely at carbon emissions from transport or accept those belong to specific countries... The same dishonesty that blames China for carbon but doesn't want to say that a lot of China's carbon is from making our disposable shit for pennies


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Right now my feelings about the UK in general can be summed up as I don't give a fuck what the shit hole does it'll always disappoint me.
> 
> I've always been ambivalent about this country the last couple of years has tipped me over into burn the place down and start again.


I love old blighty.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Which foul spit of land will this training ground be sited upon?


It's in South Georgia


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We import veg from Aus? Really?


I think its because UK farmers only see Brussel Sprouts as a Xmas produce.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think its because UK farmers only see Brussel Sprouts as a Xmas produce.


No call for it. So import from Aus for the weirdos. Blimey.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I love old blighty.


I hope you like the new blighty as well


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think its because UK farmers only see Brussel Sprouts as a Xmas produce.



They don't, but it is height of season.  UK sprouts end in in supermarkets a good month or so before there's a frost


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I hope you like the new blighty as well


We are not afraid of ruins.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> They don't, but it is height of season.  UK sprouts end in in supermarkets a good month or so before there's a frost


Why? They are best after a frost?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh year zero will be Johnson and his cronies trying to raise mung beans on the Thatcher peninsula


Verily, the beans falleth onto the rocky ground.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Why? They are best after a frost?


yep


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> They don't, but it is height of season.  UK sprouts end in in supermarkets a good month or so before there's a frost


Frost used to make them sweeter but a hard frost wcould cause the stems to burst . Nowadays  they use different breeds of seeds .


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Frost used to make them sweeter but a hard frost wcould cause the stems to burst . Nowadays  they use different breeds of seeds .



Still impacts on the sugars within. Mind you travel/time to table has a bigger impact


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

So are they harvested young in Aus and ripened with gas when they get here? I need to know!


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

this thread has taken an odd turn turnips and how to grow Brussel sprouts


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Still impacts on the sugars within. Mind you travel/time to table has a bigger impact


How long does a ship take from Aus to the UK? I wager they stop off too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think Boris wanted no deal. He will increasingly realise just how fucked he is.
> He cant accept the EU terms and survive.
> 
> Leaving without a deal will severly damage the tories and his reputation for financial good husbandry,  more so than back in Lawson's day and the ERM debacle.
> ...


Out for his mother as he's dragged kicking and screaming to a tumbril


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How long does a ship take from Aus to the UK? I wager they stop off too.


Normally  stop off at Christmas Island first


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think Boris wanted no deal. He will increasingly realise just how fucked he is.
> He cant accept the EU terms and survive.
> 
> Leaving without a deal will severly damage the tories and his reputation for financial good husbandry,  more so than back in Lawson's day and the ERM debacle.
> ...


Lamont, actually.....and his advisor Cameron.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Lamont, actually.....and his advisor Cameron.
> 
> View attachment 243315


Sorry. My memory of tory cunts is wobbly.


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How long does a ship take from Aus to the UK? I wager they stop off too.



fuck knows wasn't aware of the trade, had to google Singapore, Malaysia, Japan and the Middle East get 53% of the veg exports. Biggest export is carrots 34% then potatoes, onions, celery, broccoli and cauliflower.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Sorry. My memory of tory cunts is wobbly.


Cameron does appear to be a kind of leitmotif signifying abject political failure with costly, adverse economic outcomes for the people.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> this thread has taken an odd turn turnips and how to grow Brussel sprouts



Perhaps the title should be edited to read "The post-Brexit trade deal - what will it actually mean?"


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Perhaps the title should be edited to read "The post-Brexit trade deal - what will it actually mean?"


Happy for mods to edit like that, but perhaps we'd be better off with a dedicated #RatsAndRainwater thread?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Perhaps the title should be edited to read "The post-Brexit trade deal - what will it actually mean?"


Or will there be a trade deal


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Or will there be a trade deal


talking of which...Kuenssberg teasing us, as usual, with her ignorance*.



* (now that Cummings has gone)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

Sending Noel Edmunds to sort out a deal or no deal should sort it.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> No call for it. So import from Aus for the weirdos. Blimey.


Gobsmacked to find out that Mexico is the biggest exporter of Brussel Sprouts to the USA


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

we are fucked arent we?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Dec 12 2018


Pickman's model said:


> noel edmonds has been roped in. he will be enobled and will depart forthwith for brussels as britain's new brexit secretary. no one in the land knows more about deals and indeed no deals than he.


Today


Artaxerxes said:


> Sending Noel Edmunds to sort out a deal or no deal should sort it.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Cameron does appear to be a kind of leitmotif signifying abject political failure with costly, adverse economic outcomes for the people.


It just needed Gavin Barwell in the pic to be complete.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> we are fucked arent we?


Utterly


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont think Boris wanted no deal. He will increasingly realise just how fucked he is.
> He cant accept the EU terms and survive.
> 
> Leaving without a deal will severly damage the tories and his reputation for financial good husbandry,  more so than back in Lawson's day and the ERM debacle.
> ...


Why did you have to spoil a good post by calling him "Boris"?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

They may as well have got cliff richard to handle these negotiations


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> They may as well have got cliff richard to handle these negotiations


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Cameron does appear to be a kind of leitmotif signifying abject political failure with costly, adverse economic outcomes for the people.




hes the black crow of death siting on the the shoulder of events. the opportunistic dark Zelig of global affairs


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> talking of which...Kuenssberg teasing us, as usual, with her ignorance*.
> 
> View attachment 243318
> 
> * (now that Cummings has gone)


This fella's thread  is interesting   https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> we are fucked arent we?



depends how much you like turnips


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> Exactly, and no shortage of slots at airports.  Food miles wise will be horrific but they are geared for that type as is



Except doesn't most of that non EU produce come to the UK as party to trade deals the EU has done with those non EU producers.

AFAIK the UK govt are in the process of replicating these deals with producer countries. 21 done so far I heard the other day. SO, that's something...

Who's driving the trucks to get this stuff on the shelves is another issue. Continental drivers don't go back with empty lorries far as I know and won't want to get stuck at customs going back into EU from here.


----------



## Winot (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> This fella's thread  is interesting   https://twitter.com/nickgutteridge



Sounds like good pragmatic stuff. Hope Johnson shifts too.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> depends how much you like turnips


Cattle food or Baldrik's favourite.

Don't think I've ever eaten a turnip. Unless we're talking about the Scottish use of the word AKA sweed. They're alright.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

More talks.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

BBC BREAKINGUK Cabinet meeting scheduled shortly

We're told a conference call with Cabinet ministers will be held following Boris Johnson's call with European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen.

For some, this could signal a turn for the worse in the negotiations over a post-Brexit trade deal, while others may see it as a sign talks will continue.

Johnson and von der Leyen are due to release a statement shortly following their phone conversation this morning


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

xenon said:


> Cattle food or Baldrik's favourite.
> 
> Don't think I've ever eaten a turnip. Unless we're talking about the Scottish use of the word AKA sweed. They're alright.


bimble


----------



## ice-is-forming (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How long does a ship take from Aus to the UK? I wager they stop off too.



About 3 months


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> BREAKINGUK Cabinet meeting scheduled shortly
> 
> We're told a conference call with Cabinet ministers will be held following Boris Johnson's call with European Commission president Ursula von der Leyen.
> 
> ...


This will end well


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

swede and cauliflower mash is very good axually.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

xenon said:


> Cattle food or Baldrik's favourite.
> 
> Don't think I've ever eaten a turnip. Unless we're talking about the Scottish use of the word AKA sweed. They're alright.



what is the difference between a turnip and a Swede 

anyways is it just size

don't mind a bit of turnip in  stew  but maybe i'm mistaking it for a swede


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

The call is over, it's all over. Time for a wet lunch.


----------



## cyril_smear (Dec 13, 2020)

rummo said:


> Brexit just isn't the same without Mark Francois contributions.



I think he will be back shortly.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

Urs VDL is a bit of a sticker for protocol and a bit clever. She must have been utterly appalled by what is going on


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Winot said:


> Sounds like good pragmatic stuff. Hope Johnson shifts too.


God knows who/what his sources are but its prob the most plausible account of the negotiations I have seen.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> what is the difference between a turnip and a Swede
> 
> anyways is it just size
> 
> don't mind a bit of turnip in  stew  but maybe i'm mistaking it for a swede


A turnip is more akin to a large radish. You can eat it raw. A Swede is more woody and requires cooking and lots of butter and pepper.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2020)

I would take a cabinet call, given that it is not because the talks are over, to mean the UK is having to give significant ground somewhere.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

ice-is-forming said:


> About 3 months


Globalism. Its mental. Do Australian people not like sprouts?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A turnip is more akin to a large radish. You can eat it raw. A Swede is more woody and requires cooking and lots of butter and pepper.


If you dice a turnip and a swede, roast and serve with seasoning to taste they're very nice, as we'll soon find out


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

One of the nicest dishes ever is a turnip daphinois.  Dont stint on the cream.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

PM and EU chief agree to extend Brexit trade talks
					

Talks to find a post-Brexit trade deal will "go the extra mile" beyond Sunday's deadline in bid to reach agreement, says EU chief



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Globalism. Its mental. Do Australian people not like sprouts?


Many convicts faced with the option of a year in prison eating swedes, turnips and sprouts or seven years transportation to Australia with no certain meals opted for the latter, and their antipathy to sprouts is shared by their descendants


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Fucking hell. It continues.


----------



## ice-is-forming (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Globalism. Its mental. Do Australian people not like sprouts?



You know, fresh sprouts are really expensive here. Most people buy frozen imported ones


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> This is after the £350m for the NHS I assume?



Thats not allowed under WTO rules I gather?

PS Ive never eaten a turnip. Dont think ive even seen one in the supermarket. Might give it a try


----------



## weltweit (Dec 13, 2020)

Do you think the EU are asking for £350 million a week for access to the single market?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

It's dented and rusty, that can. Nobody wants to pick it up.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's dented and rusty, that can. Nobody wants to pick it up.


A dog pissed in it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's dented and rusty, that can. Nobody wants to pick it up.


No one wants to pick it up because it's covered in shit


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Fucking hell. It continues.



it will go all the way up to midnight on the 31st Dec

Boris and the Torys " the EU will Blink and give us what we want"

the EU "rolls eyes again"


----------



## two sheds (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Thats not allowed under WTO rules I gather?
> 
> PS Ive never eaten a turnip. Dont think ive even seen one in the supermarket. Might give it a try



Hint: you need to cook them first.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Fucking hell. It continues.



Until ...2300UTC 31st Dec (0000CET 1st Jan). (HT 2hats  )


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

It doesn't hurt the EU to extend, the pressure really builds up here.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

An anecdote with a sample of one person: I spoke to my sister who lives in Germany last night, asked her what she's seen about Brexit on the TV news - she said shes seen nothing and thought it happened already .Covid dominates news coverage there


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

Happy Christmas(talks are not over)


----------



## gosub (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The call is over, it's all over. Time for a wet lunch.


A substantial meal surely


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It doesn't hurt the EU to extend, the pressure really builds up here.


Gives the supermarkets time to stock up


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

gosub said:


> A substantial meal surely


A scotch egg and a large bottle of red.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Gives the supermarkets time to stock up


Look on the bright side eh? 

Well it gives more time for leavers and remainers to find common ground and become friends again.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Look on the bright side eh?
> 
> Well it gives more time for leavers and remainers to find common ground and become friends again.


You're ever the optimist


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Look on the bright side eh?
> 
> Well it gives more time for leavers and remainers to find common ground and become friends again.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

no one want to be the one that shuts this issue down.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

Ultra final deadline part 38.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 13, 2020)

Kicking the can means he is not doomed today but the pressure just builds up. Like enjoying Christmas knowing eviction will happen in January and family might have to live in the tent.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

So much for get Brexit done


Just wait for the EU to walk away and throw blame around

why am I not surprised


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> So much for get Brexit done
> 
> 
> Just wait for the EU to walk away and throw blame around
> ...


Boris Johnson is the get brexit dunce


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> we are fucked arent we?


Should be okay in about 15-20 years


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> what is the difference between a turnip and a Swede
> 
> anyways is it just size
> 
> don't mind a bit of turnip in  stew  but maybe i'm mistaking it for a swede


Turnip soup is lovely


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We are not afraid of ruins.


Maybe not, but health and safety rules should still be rigorously enforced.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Should be okay in about 15-20 years


Rees Mogg said 50 years.

Considering most of the deal is already sorted, and presuming this playing field stuff is resolved, do we have details on what that the rest says yet?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Rees Mogg said 50 years.
> 
> Considering most of the deal is already sorted, and presuming this playing field stuff is resolved, do we have details on what that the rest says yet?


50 years before any normality. 

10-15 years of utter shit, poverty, civil unrest, massive job loss and open racism.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Badgers said:


> open racism.


its not open racism its protesting a marxist political project


----------



## cloudyday (Dec 13, 2020)

Stick them over there next to the others


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

number 7 is buy a second home. If you can’t do that just eat more pollock.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Rees Mogg said 50 years.
> 
> Considering most of the deal is already sorted, and presuming this playing field stuff is resolved, do we have details on what that the rest says yet?




won't effect him already moved his money to Europe the Twat


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 243331
> number 7 is buy a second home. If you can’t do that just eat more pollock.



We know that reading the mail is like spending time in a lunatic asylum, but have you read #4????

Stick it to Brussels by buying a Hoover with  wattage greater than 900.

I can hear Ursula trembling from here.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 243331
> number 7 is buy a second home. If you can’t do that just eat more pollock.



Buy a Lamborghini?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

laughed at buy a Jar 

who owns them again Tata motors


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Many convicts faced with the option of a year in prison eating swedes, turnips and sprouts or seven years transportation to Australia with no certain meals opted for the latter, and their antipathy to sprouts is shared by their descendants


I think the U.K. penal system was the first to offer prisoners transportation for dietary reasons .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> laughed at buy a Jar
> 
> who owns them again Tata motors



I shall only be buying Mclarens from now on. Probably need at least three of the things to transport the missus, kids and dog, but it’s worth it to stick it to Johnny forrin.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 243331
> number 7 is buy a second home. If you can’t do that just eat more pollock.


Though presumably not in France


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Not only is this clip worth watching again, for the breath-taking lies, but also for the speed with which Johnson loses the (presumably self-selecting) room as soon as he starts using terms like quotas and tariffs. The almost instant body repositioning, resort to phones and general looking around shows how engaged folk were/are with the actual mechanics of the unwinding from the supra-state.

It's virtually all in the affective domain, isn't it?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2020)

Getting slightly nervous that we might be shifting from a deal that would have prevented GB from turning itself into a giant polluting sweatshop towards one where that's fine up to a point, so long as the EU has adequate scope to protect its interests.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> number 7 is buy a second home. If you can’t do that just eat more pollock.


My favourite part of the animal anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Turnip soup is lovely


Soup is good food


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> won't effect him already moved his money to Europe the Twat


We'll see how he likes it when his body is moved to the saiz


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2020)

Wonder if the establishment forces that have covered Johnson's arse thus far will continue to suport him if he pushes us all off a cliff now. I'm sure if they do turn on him it will be with zero acknowledgment of the fact they are directly responsible for everything he is and eveything he has done.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> So much for get Brexit done
> 
> 
> Just wait for the EU to walk away and throw blame around
> ...



The EU won't be the one to walk away.  They don't want to be seen as having pushed Britain over the edge, and in any case, they can afford to be patient.  It's Johnson who's facing a political shit-storm at home irrespective of whether a deal is done or not.  They can afford to hang things out and keep him wriggling on his own hook.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> The EU won't be the one to walk away.  They don't want to be seen as having pushed Britain over the edge, and in any case, they can afford to be patient.  It's Johnson who's facing a political shit-storm at home irrespective of whether a deal is done or not.  They can afford to hang things out and keep him wriggling on his own hook.


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> The EU won't be the one to walk away.  They don't want to be seen as having pushed Britain over the edge, and in any case, they can afford to be patient.  It's Johnson who's facing a political shit-storm at home irrespective of whether a deal is done or not.  They can afford to hang things out and keep him wriggling on his own hook.


If he’s weighing up shitstorms he’s got to be thinking that a deal however crap is better than none. Nobody cares about the details, if he can announce a great triumph and also not have empty fruit & veg sections in supermarkets he’ll just do that won’t he? Some people will complain that it’s not the proper brexit they ordered but they’d probably find a way to sing that song of betrayal anyway.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> It's Johnson who's facing a political shit-storm at home irrespective of whether a deal is done or not.


Don't bank on it:
Leading the polls today
Successfully stuck it to the EU
Got Brexit Done
Fought hard for a deal
Great brinkmanship
Nationalist press jubilant
Victory bounce 
Shit moaning opposition
Five more years!
...just as likely an outcome


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> If he’s weighing up shitstorms he’s got to be thinking that a deal however crap is better than none. Nobody cares about the details, if he can announce a great triumph and also not have empty fruit & veg sections in supermarkets he’ll just do that won’t he?



Well, that would be the rational thing to do, certainly, but I wouldn't put money on it.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Don't bank on it:
> Leading the polls today
> Successfully stuck it to the EU
> Got Brexit Done
> ...



All true, but there's also the next couple of weeks to consider.  If he does a deal the hardliners will scream betrayal, and if he doesn't there'll be chaos and who knows what political ructions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> If he’s weighing up shitstorms he’s got to be thinking that a deal however crap is better than none. Nobody cares about the details, if he can announce a great triumph and also not have empty fruit & veg sections in supermarkets he’ll just do that won’t he?


Johnson shares May's view that a bad deal is worse than no deal


----------



## bimble (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Johnson shares May's view that a bad deal is worse than no deal


That slogans got a lot to answer for I think.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 13, 2020)

the odd thing about fishing being such an issue is that the rules for having a foreign own boat list as a British fishing vessel is quite slack atm
and no ones mentioned tightening up the rules

so odd hill for the uk to die upon

but its about fighting for British sovereignty


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> That slogans got a lot to answer for I think.



Theresa May has a lot to answer for.  Ultimately it was in her gift to try and forge a consensus around a 'soft Brexit' that took the UK out of the EU's political structures whilst causing minimal disruption, damage and division.  Instead she decided to listen to hardline morons like Nick Timothy and tried to be more UKIP than UKIP.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> the odd thing about fishing being such an issue is that the rules for having a foreign own boat list as a British fishing vessel is quite slack atm
> and no ones mentioned tightening up the rules
> 
> so odd hill for the uk to die upon
> ...



That is because almost none of the people droning on about fishing understand the first thing about it.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 13, 2020)

End all slogans now!


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> If he does a deal the hardliners will scream betrayal,


Most will be on board


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

On I'm sorry I haven't a clue today piccaninny redefined as Tory leadership contest

Wonder when we'll next see such an event


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Most will be on board



What makes you think that?  The ERG and their fellow travellers inside and outside Parliament have shown pretty consistently that no workable deal will satisfy them and no achievable form of Brexit will be acceptable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> End all slogans now!


Down with this sort of thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> What makes you think that?  The ERG and their fellow travellers inside and outside Parliament have shown pretty consistently that no workable deal will satisfy them and no achievable form of Brexit will be acceptable.


The erg are in talks with the vogons for the UK and dependant territories to be saved from the destruction of the rest of the planet to make way for a galactic bypass. They say this will be a satisfactory departure from the eu


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The erg are in talks with the vogons for the UK and dependant territories to be saved from the destruction of the rest of the planet to make way for a galactic bypass. They say this will be a satisfactory departure from the eu



Let us hope the talks include poetry readings.

Actually, who do we think would be a worse poet - a vogon, or John Redwood?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> That slogans got a lot to answer for I think.



Would help if we had leaders who could keep more than three words in their head at a time.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Would help if we had leaders who could keep more than three words in their head at a time.


Probably Cummings' biggest contribution to politics, successfully reducing entire campaigns over complex issues to three-word, four-syllable tabloid headlines that include an imperative verb form.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> All true, but there's also the next couple of weeks to consider.  If he does a deal the hardliners will scream betrayal, and if he doesn't there'll be chaos and who knows what political ructions.


Not sure there'll actually be much screaming of betrayal from his own party, tbh.
Sure the Faragist fringe will bleat, but the tory party will, I suspect, demonstrate significant, tribal loyalty and reveal that much of the ERG-style sabre-rattling was a confected shroud that Johnson could wave in front of the 'Europeans'. Most of the swivel-eyed loons will, after all, be winning much more than they feared when in the mire with May.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not sure there'll actually be much screaming of betrayal from his own party, tbh.
> Sure the Faragist fringe will bleat, but the tory party will, I suspect, demonstrate significant, tribal loyalty and reveal that much of the ERG-style sabre-rattling was a confected shroud that Johnson could wave in front of the 'Europeans'. Most of the swivel-eyed loons will, after all, be winning much more than they feared when in the mire with May.


What do they win that they wouldn't have got with the May deal they rejected?

Agreeing to some form of 'ratchet up' isn't so different from the NI backstop but applied to the whole of the UK.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Don't bank on it:
> Leading the polls today
> Successfully stuck it to the EU
> Got Brexit Done
> ...



This is way to long for a haiku


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What do they win that they wouldn't have got with the May deal they rejected?


May's deal was the Withdrawal Agreement, not a trade deal. The mire I referred to was when it looked like they might not even get a WA without some huge concession, even a 2nd ref.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not sure there'll actually be much screaming of betrayal from his own party, tbh.
> Sure the Faragist fringe will bleat, but the tory party will, I suspect, demonstrate significant, tribal loyalty and reveal that much of the ERG-style sabre-rattling was a confected shroud that Johnson could wave in front of the 'Europeans'. Most of the swivel-eyed loons will, after all, be winning much more than they feared when in the mire with May.



That is true, but I can't help thinking you're attributing more reasonableness to these people than they've shown themselves to be capable of.  Moreover, even the kind of deal that can be struck now will be disruptive, and their response - almost as a reflex action - will probably be to huff and puff about Brexit not having been done properly.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Let us hope the talks include poetry readings.
> 
> Actually, who do we think would be a worse poet - a vogon, or John Redwood?


Redwood's verse has won him many admirers among the vogons


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> May's deal was the Withdrawal Agreement, not a trade deal. The mire I referred to was when it looked like they might not even get a WA without some huge concession, even a 2nd ref.


Ok fair point on the WA. But it would have passed had they not opposed it. Like brexit itself the chaos that followed was entirely of their own making. And I don't see anything happening right now that is somehow 'more brexitty' than would have been likely with a May-style deal. They've changed the personnel is all.

Exactly the same fundamental issue remains. EU is massive trading bloc. UK wants access. UK had full access. UK has to follow EU rules to keep full access. Anything less than full access means disruption. WTO-style zero privileges means chaos.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Redwood's verse has won him many admirers among the vogons



No, that was just his attempt to sing the Welsh national anthem.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> That is true, but I can't help thinking you're attributing more reasonableness to these people than they've shown themselves to be capable of.  Moreover, even the kind of deal that can be struck now will be disruptive, and their response - almost as a reflex action - will probably be to huff and puff about Brexit not having been done properly.


No, they're not reasonable; they're tory cunts. But that's the point, when the shit starts to hit the fan they'll rally round for the most part and join Johnson's bunker mentality safe in the knowledge that the great, neoliberal leap forward has been secured. For some of them their career's work done.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

bimble said:


> If he’s weighing up shitstorms he’s got to be thinking that a deal however crap is better than none. Nobody cares about the details, if he can announce a great triumph and also not have empty fruit & veg sections in supermarkets he’ll just do that won’t he? Some people will complain that it’s not the proper brexit they ordered but they’d probably find a way to sing that song of betrayal anyway.



you'd think. But the ERG lot in his party, blue passport UKIP type brexiteer nutters Daily Mail, will go mental.

IMO Should a no deal scenario come to pass and lead to shortages, in medicines food, that lot should feel the anger, not in the ballot box or comment sections, but on the street.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

The internecine threat to the tory party was greatest when the competing factions of the party were fighting over the mechanism. With the result in there'll be a period of unified blame casting, rebuttal, political attack and work to capitalise in 2023/4.


----------



## andysays (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> What makes you think that?  The ERG and their fellow travellers inside and outside Parliament have shown pretty consistently that no workable deal will satisfy them and no achievable form of Brexit will be acceptable.


Given the size of Johnson's majority (and the fact that Starmer appears not to have much stomach for actually opposing), I don't think the ERG have the parliamentary power to prevent any deal which Johnson might manage to do.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> That is because almost none of the people droning on about fishing understand the first thing about it.



Doubt if the fish give a fuck either.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No, they're not reasonable; they're tory cunts. But that's the point, when the shit starts to hit the fan they'll rally round for the most part and join Johnson's bunker mentality safe in the knowledge that the great, neoliberal leap forward has been secured. For some of them their career's work done.



You reckon?! I think they'll defenestrate Johnson in short order!

e2a - pressed 'post' by mistake before I'd finished.   I think a lot of them genuinely believe there's some sort of perfect Brexit option that gives them the sovereignty* they crave whilst not causing any economic damage, and they'll blame Johnson for not delivering it.

* of which their vision is completely unrealistic, of course


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

andysays said:


> Given the size of Johnson's majority (and the fact that Starmer appears not to have much stomach for actually opposing), I don't think the ERG have the parliamentary power to prevent any deal which Johnson might manage to do.



Not sure about that - not clear exactly how many of them there are - but they can certainly make his life difficult.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No, they're not reasonable; they're tory cunts. But that's the point, when the shit starts to hit the fan they'll rally round for the most part and join Johnson's bunker mentality safe in the knowledge that the great, neoliberal leap forward has been secured. For some of them their career's work done.


Rally round a leader who's just caused an enormous disaster? I doubt that.

If there is no deal and that causes the predicted disruption, the Tories will need to get rid of Johnson so that a new leader can negotiate a deal. My fear in all this is that the Tories will be allowed to renew themselves without losing power for the third time since the referendum.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> You reckon?! I think they'll defenestrate Johnson in short order!


Eventually, yes...but not while they have to pull through the 'choppiest' waters/'bumps in the road'.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Rally round a leader who's just caused an enormous disaster? I doubt that.
> 
> If there is no deal and that causes the predicted disruption, the Tories will need to get rid of Johnson so that a new leader can negotiate a deal. My fear in all this is that the Tories will be allowed to renew themselves without losing power for the third time since the referendum.


Agree with that last bit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

This whole shitfest reminds me of a quote from the head psychiatrist at Broadmoor, who described her criminally insane patients as 'the victims of a terrible catastrophe, where they themselves are the catastrophe'.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Eventually, yes...but not while they have to pull through the 'choppiest' waters/'bumps in the road'.



I can't help thinking they're as or more likely to see the 'choppy waters' as the perfect opportunity to throw him overboard, blaming him for the shit-show as they do so.  The golden rule with these people is that it's never, ever their fault.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I can't help thinking they're as or more likely to see the 'choppy waters' as the perfect opportunity to throw him overboard, blaming him for the shit-show as they do so.  The golden rule with these people is that it's never, ever their fault.


That may be their golden rule, but at a time when their press will be lauding Johnson as our national saviour to the 'red-wallers' they won't make their move against him.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That may be their golden rule, but at a time when their press will be lauding Johnson as our national saviour to the 'red-wallers' they won't make their move against him.


You think the Tory press will be praising Johnson when the images show empty shelves in shops and lorries lined up across Kent as if it were some kind of misjudged Guinness World Record attempt?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> What makes you think that?  The ERG and their fellow travellers inside and outside Parliament have shown pretty consistently that no workable deal will satisfy them and no achievable form of Brexit will be acceptable.


Lets come back to this in the new year.

My feeling is like Johnson is doing right now, its a case of push the narrative as far as you can, and take what you can get. I doubt very many actively want to crash out - especially as crashing out still means doing a deal down the line. Theyve already secured a much harder Brexit than was ever floated. Most will be on board. Those whose eyes swivel in their sleep will be given a triple whisky and patted on the back down the club.

Worth recalling what Nigel Farage has said over the years....at one point it was all Look at Norway, We Can Be Norway! - once that battle was won it was Lets Crash Out > moving the Brexit Overton Window as victory after victory was notched up.

You've got to give it our ruling class, they're very good at rigging, playing, and then winning the game, on their terms. The rest of the UK are just bystanders here - left for dust, wondering whats next in store for us.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You think the Tory press will be praising Johnson when the images show empty shelves in shops and lorries lined up across Kent as if it were some kind of misjudged Guinness World Record attempt?


Who do you think they'll blame?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That may be their golden rule, but at a time when their press will be lauding Johnson as our national saviour to the 'red-wallers' they won't make their move against him.



Perhaps, but the 'red wallers' and the ERG shade off into one another.  Besides, give it a few weeks of shortages, company bankruptcies and general bad news, and I suspect even the most Brexity press outlets will start to go a bit cold on the 'national saviour' nonsense!




ska invita said:


> Lets come back to this in the new year.
> 
> My feeling is like Johnson is doing right now, its a case of push the narrative as far as you can, and take what you can get. I doubt very many actively want to crash out - especially as crashing out still means doing a deal down the line. Theyve already secured a much harder Brexit than was ever floated. Most will be on board. Those whose eyes swivel in their sleep will be given a triple whisky and patted on the back down the club.
> 
> ...



Nothing else we can do except see how things develop and revisit the question in the new year!  However, I think your point about Farage is the key one here, and it's not just him: it's the ERG types in Parliament who've been steadily nudging Brexit in a harder and harder direction.  I'm not sure they're realist enough to see how much disruption that's likely to cause, but am sure that they'll be running round like headless chickens trying to find someone on whom to pin the blame.  It's all they ever do.

As for 'our ruling class,' ultimately that's what Brexit comes down to - a split in the ruling class between those who don't want to upset the apple cart and those who've drunk the Brexit Kool-Aid and are pissed out their minds on vague ideas of sovereignty and an ill-disguised belief that outside the EU Britain can move a lot further in a libertarian direction than it could within.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 13, 2020)

I think the Tory hard brexiters are more influential than some give them credit for. If having left the EU our compromises over a free trade deal mean we effectively return to shared sovereignty, they won't wear it. And a level playing field and enforcement mechanism do require the UK to compromise.   

Personally, the attractiveness of free trade mean compromise is worth it, but I have never been very excited by sovereignty.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Also history doesnt stop on 1st Jan. Whatever deal is done* can be pushed, edged, broken, in the years to come. This is far from the end, its more the end of the beginning. 

(*if it is done that is!)


----------



## agricola (Dec 13, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You think the Tory press will be praising Johnson when the images show empty shelves in shops and lorries lined up across Kent as if it were some kind of misjudged Guinness World Record attempt?



Honestly?  Yes.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Also history doesnt stop on 1st Jan. Whatever deal is done* can be pushed, edged, broken, in the years to come. This is far from the end, its more the end of the beginning.
> 
> (*if it is done that is!)


Channelling Churchill?


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I think the Tory hard brexiters are more influential than some give them credit for. If having left the EU our compromises over a free trade deal mean we effectively return to shared sovereignty, they won't wear it. And a level playing field and enforcement mechanism do require the UK to compromise.
> 
> Personally, the attractiveness of free trade mean compromise is worth it, but I have never been very excited by sovereignty.



The only thing I'm interested in them wearing is a noose. Failing that, hurled off their beloved cliffs of Dover, I'd settle for that.

</ angry man on the interwebs mode>


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

xenon said:


> The only thing I'm interested in them wearing is a noose. Failing that, hurled off their beloved cliffs of Dover, I'd settle for that.
> 
> </ angry man on the interwebs mode>


Surely you could get a larger and indeed more appreciative audience if you hoisted them up to the top of Nelson's column and in true buccaneering style forced them to walk a plank


----------



## philosophical (Dec 13, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Thankfully remainers are on a spectrum. Philosophical at the crazed loon end and others, perhaps considering the impact of the peoples vote campaign heading towards the other end.



You are not short of an opinion.
My opinion is you're a brexit voting cunt who voted for trouble on the Irish border and 'cannon and machine' guns trained on our neighbours.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 13, 2020)

That's the Spirit!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Actually, who do we think would be a worse poet - a vogon, or John Redwood?



have you any proof he's not a vogon?



> Vogons are described as "one of the most unpleasant races in the galaxy—not actually evil, but bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous", and having "as much sex appeal as a road accident" as well as being the authors of "the third worst poetry in the universe".


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Also history doesnt stop on 1st Jan. Whatever deal is done* can be pushed, edged, broken, in the years to come. This is far from the end, its more the end of the beginning.


Are you sure it's not just the beginning of the end of the beginning?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Are you sure it's not just the beginning of the end of the beginning?


Every end is a new beginning


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> have you any proof he's not a vogon?



Yes.  'Bad-tempered, bureaucratic, officious and callous,' and having 'as much sex appeal as a road accident' is pretty much a perfect description of Edward Leigh.  Therefore he must be a vogon, and if he is then John Redwood can't be, unless vogons can shape-shift.  Stands to reason.


----------



## xenon (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Surely you could get a larger and indeed more appreciative audience if you hoisted them up to the top of Nelson's column and in true buccaneering style forced them to walk a plank



An idea certainly not without merit. Wonderful Sunday afternoon viewing.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 243337


Plenty of room up there for the rest of the cabinet to be hung up


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> have you any proof he's not a vogon?


Ballard might demur.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.



I don't think they forget it or care.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Who do you think they'll blame?



Corbyn


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I don't think they forget it or care.



Tbf it depends who we're referring to, I suppose.  Coming from some journalists and the ERG types it probably is deliberate in a lot of cases: they can't quite burn the country's bridges, but the more damage they can do the better from their point of view.  Coming from those not trying to force a no-deal it's so completely guileless that I suspect it really is just parochialism, stupidity and British-public-school arrogance.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.



Tempting to think that but the official line is : 


> Meanwhile, the President of the European Council, Charles Michel, applauded the decision to prolong the negotiations. Michel, who chairs the European Union's summits, told France Inter Radio: *"We must do everything in our power to make an agreement possible. We must support a good agreement".
> *
> The President of the European Council also said that the European Union would maintain its "composure" when an agreement was close.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 13, 2020)

I would love to know more about how the negotiations are being undertaken, what techniques are being used, how much has already been agreed, conditional on everything being agreed, and the specifics of what these final disagreements are.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 13, 2020)

My favourite stat of the day: HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side


Talking of which I'm genuinely baffled by that Get Ready To Eat Turnips etc graphic from the Mail.
Was that a spoof?
If not, what is the thinking behind publishing it?
Isn't it a bit Project Fear for the Mail?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Tempting to think that but the official line is :



Of course it is.  It's not in their interests for this to end in 'no deal.'   Doesn't mean that Britain hasn't weakened its own position through its politicians' (and journalists') habit of putting their foot in it, deliberately or otherwise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Talking of which I'm genuinely baffled by that Get Ready To Eat Turnips etc graphic from the Mail.
> Was that a spoof?
> If not, what is the thinking behind publishing it?
> Isn't it a bit Project Fear for the Mail?


When they carry an article about foraging you'll know it's all gone to shit


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Of course it is.  It's not in their interests for this to end in 'no deal.'   Doesn't mean that Britain hasn't weakened its own position through its politicians' (and journalists') habit of putting their foot in it, deliberately or otherwise.


I really doubt that any media coverage influences the negotiations tbh .


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I really doubt that any media coverage influences the negotiations tbh .



Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did.  I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip.  That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did.  I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip.  That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...


I hate it , and your right re Ireland where issues about Brexit have resulted in some anti Brit stuff .


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did.  I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip.  That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...


You cannot hope to bribe or twist -
Thank God - the British journalist
But seeing what they'll do
Unbribed there's no occasion to


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> One thing British politicians are all too apt to forget is that mainland Europeans do follow what's happening in Britain, so their jingoistic drivel intended to keep Mail readers on side makes their job of negotiating the future all the more difficult.





Does Merkel get her syrups from the same geeza that Trump does?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 13, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not directly, no, although I'm starting to get the impression - mainly from conversations with friends on the mainland - that the British press's xenophobia has started to grate more than it did.  I was more thinking in terms of politicians' own statements, such as Priti Patel's suggestion that food shortages in Ireland would be a useful bargaining chip.  That's hardly a way to win friends and influence people...


The Millwallification of regional geopolitics.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 13, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You cannot hope to bribe or twist -
> Thank God - the British journalist
> But seeing what they'll do
> Unbribed there's no occasion to



'If it has fallen to my destiny to start a fight to cut out the cancer of bent and twisted journalism in our country with the simple sword of truth and the trusty shield of British fair play, so be it.  I am ready for the fight.'


----------



## Badgers (Dec 14, 2020)

British food trapped in Europe as port chaos spreads
					

Shipping lines are refusing to release goods diverted to European ports




					www.thegrocer.co.uk
				






> For some small suppliers, the diversions into Europe are costing “hundreds of thousands of pounds a month”, said Dominic Goudie, head of international trade at the FDF, with the impacts now having a material effect on their ability to prepare for next year.
> 
> Supermarkets are also facing similar difficulties, with some reporting increased shipping costs of 25% week on week. They are urging the government to act. BRC director of food & sustainability Andrew Opie has written to transport secretary Grant Shapps to urge him to “take all action possible to clear the logjam” and allow goods to flow seamlessly into the UK.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 14, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I would love to know more about how the negotiations are being undertaken, what techniques are being used, how much has already been agreed, conditional on everything being agreed, and the specifics of what these final disagreements are.



I reckon lengthy chats about turnips would be a good deal less boring ....


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2020)

For liberals, Brexit is a hard lesson in the politics of resentment | Nesrine Malik
					

The centre-left failed to confront the increasingly toxic discourse around migration until it was too late, says the Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

TopCat said:


> For liberals, Brexit is a hard lesson in the politics of resentment | Nesrine Malik
> 
> 
> The centre-left failed to confront the increasingly toxic discourse around migration until it was too late, says the Guardian columnist Nesrine Malik
> ...


This is particularly sloppy:


> That is how to understand Brexit: not an irrational rightwing populism, not a derangement of post-truth politics, but the predictable outcome of a concerted political and media campaign that capitalised on a colossal failure of our economic model.



That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but _understanding Brexit_ requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

Following the discussions on here, yesterday, about on-going the stability of the Johnson regime, it will be interesting to see if any/how many backwoodsmen like Gale actually join with calls for Johnson's replacement if the outcome is ND...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This is particularly sloppy:
> 
> 
> That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but _understanding Brexit_ requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.


to be fair it is the guardian


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> This is particularly sloppy:
> 
> 
> That might be one interpretation of the motivation(s) that lay behind some voters decision for 'Leave', but _understanding Brexit_ requires a clear focus on those interests that engineered the resentment or racism to effect the superstructural change they desired.


It's also important not to exaggerate the numbers wrt who voted for what. A lot of older, (small or big C) conservative, English people voted for Brexit. Homeowners with no mortgage (necessarily older, of course) voted strongly leave; retired people voted strongly leave. A minority of young people of any class or political persuasion voted for brexit. So there's a question there about why many of those who are most affected by failures of the economic model, who have the biggest stake in fixing those failures, didn't vote heavily leave, while many of those least affected by the failures did.

I don't think failures of the economic model are a good fit with explaining the brexit vote. At best, they provide only a partial explanation. And I agree that engineered resentment played at least as big a role. That resentment took hold among some parts of the population, while failing to find traction among others.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Following the discussions on here, yesterday, about on-going the stability of the Johnson regime, it will be interesting to see if any/how many backwoodsmen like Gale actually join with calls for Johnson's replacement if the outcome is ND...
> 
> 
> View attachment 243446
> ...


for brutus is an honourable man...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> for brutus is an honourable man...


Et tu, Galey?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 14, 2020)

I’ve read a lot of research recently that explains the _how_ of the Brexit vote pretty well but doesn’t even engage with _who made it happen and why.  _This is a tendency of a more sociological lens on it, I suppose.  The political, structural underpinnings are just not in scope. The article above is a penny-seat version of that.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You think the Tory press will be praising Johnson when the images show empty shelves in shops and lorries lined up across Kent as if it were some kind of misjudged Guinness World Record attempt?


I'm pretty sure that the Tory press will go into overdrive to try and pin the blame on the EU with Merkel, Macron and especially Barnier getting the voodoo doll treatment but at the end of the day the British Press and/or Public are utterly powerless when it comes to having any effect on these people and any decisions they may make. 
Sooner or later the spotlight will fall on BoZo.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’ve read a lot of research recently that explains the _how_ of the Brexit vote pretty well but doesn’t even engage with _who made it happen and why.  _This is a tendency of a more sociological lens on it, I suppose.  The political, structural underpinnings are just not in scope. The article above is a penny-seat version of that.


I've bored people with this before, but I do think it is telling that elements on the right in this country were organising anti (then) EEC lobby groups/think tanks some 12 years before the UK acceded to the supra-state in 1973.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 14, 2020)

johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of  "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions. 
The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to  be exposed.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of  "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions.
> The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to  be exposed.



Won't be him that has to deal with the chaos and giving in phase, I suspect. Could be a proper disaster capitalism fanatic like Gove instead, which would make the incompetence and disinterest of Johnson look like paradise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> johnson is basically going to have to choose which abject political failure he wants hung around his neck - giving in to the EU conditions, or several months of  "no deal" chaos, followed by giving in to the EU conditions.
> The UK has run out of road to kick the can down and the impossiblism of the UKs brexit position - which goes back to Mays "red lines" on freedom of movement - is finally going to  be exposed.


johnson will be exposed as the fraud he is


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> johnson will be exposed as the fraud he is



That's been a matter of public record for some time now. Hasn't put a dent in him.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> That's been a matter of public record for some time now. Hasn't put a dent in him.


not sure you got the dad's army reference


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 14, 2020)

It was pretty obvious that Johnson was always a badly stuffed bullet catcher for the party


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 14, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> It was pretty obvious that Johnson was always a badly stuffed bullet catcher for the party



Not obvious to him apparently. Even despite the evidence of May's glory-soaked tenure as brexit patsy.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 14, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not obvious to him apparently. Even despite the evidence of May's glory-soaked tenure as brexit patsy.


. 

The best patsys are the ignorant ones


----------



## Flavour (Dec 14, 2020)

Good job Labour are setting out such a clear and attractive vision of a post-Brexit UK that gives us all reason to be at least slightly hopeful that in the aftermath of the 2024 election a monumental corner will have been rounded!!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 14, 2020)

Labour feel totally absent from the debate. It is left to Tories to oppose Brexit. Lord help me but Heseltine speaks sense in this article. Not too much of substance to disagree with - from a rational r/w pov like Heseltine's, Brexit is utter madness. 

Brexit is the worst decision of modern times. Why are its critics in cabinet so silent? | Michael Heseltine

His call at the end for decentralisation of decision-making is of course correct, and also of course massively hypocritical given what his government did.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 14, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Dec 14, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> massively hypocritical given what his government did.


not just on squashing municipalism, but seeding so much nationalist sentiment in their time in office....shit pigeons home to roost


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I've bored people with this before, but I do think it is telling that elements on the right in this country were organising anti (then) EEC lobby groups/think tanks some 12 years before the UK acceded to the supra-state in 1973.


As exemplified by...



> One of the earliest groups formed against British involvement in Europe was the Conservative Party-based *Anti-Common Market League*, whose president Victor Montagu declared that opponents of the Common Market *did not want to "subject [themselves] to a lot of frogs and huns*".



Led, as President from 1962–84, President Victor Montagu ; (Alexander Victor Edward Paulet Montagu) formerly known as Viscount Hinchingbrooke and the Earl of Sandwich. This predecessor of Farage being an aristocratic, old Etonian/Oxbridge, Armed Forces, Right-wing Monday club member and paedophile.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 14, 2020)

Johnson's blinked? 









						Brexit trade deal possible within days after Johnson concession, says EU
					

Barnier says PM’s acceptance of need for ‘evolution clause’ as standards diverge has unlocked talks




					www.theguardian.com
				






> A post-Brexit trade and security deal could be sealed as early as this week after Boris Johnson made a key concession over the weekend, the EU’s chief negotiator, Michel Barnier, has told the bloc’s ambassadors in Brussels.
> 
> Barnier said the prime minister’s acceptance of the need for a treaty-level mechanism to ensure fair competition as regulatory standards diverge over time had unlocked the talks. His comments came despite suggestions from Downing Street that a no-deal exit remains likely.
> 
> ...


----------



## teqniq (Dec 14, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Following the discussions on here, yesterday, about on-going the stability of the Johnson regime, it will be interesting to see if any/how many backwoodsmen like Gale actually join with calls for Johnson's replacement if the outcome is ND...
> 
> 
> View attachment 243446
> ...


'honourable man' lol. Shurely there must be some mistake?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> 'honourable man' lol. Shurely there must be some mistake?


the reference is to this speech by mark antony in shakespeare's 'julius caesar'

Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
The evil that men do lives after them;
The good is oft interred with their bones;
So let it be with Caesar. The noble Brutus
Hath told you Caesar was ambitious:
If it were so, it was a grievous fault,
And grievously hath Caesar answer’d it.
Here, under leave of Brutus and the rest–
For Brutus is an honourable man;
So are they all, all honourable men–
Come I to speak in Caesar’s funeral.
He was my friend, faithful and just to me:
But Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
He hath brought many captives home to Rome
Whose ransoms did the general coffers fill:
Did this in Caesar seem ambitious?
When that the poor have cried, Caesar hath wept:
Ambition should be made of sterner stuff:
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And Brutus is an honourable man.
You all did see that on the Lupercal
I thrice presented him a kingly crown,
Which he did thrice refuse: was this ambition?
Yet Brutus says he was ambitious;
And, sure, he is an honourable man.
I speak not to disprove what Brutus spoke,
But here I am to speak what I do know.
You all did love him once, not without cause:
What cause withholds you then, to mourn for him?
O judgment! thou art fled to brutish beasts,
And men have lost their reason. Bear with me;
My heart is in the coffin there with Caesar,
And I must pause till it come back to me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the reference is to this speech by mark antony in shakespeare's 'julius caesar'
> 
> Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
> I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
> ...




The Carry On version was better.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the reference is to this speech by mark antony in shakespeare's 'julius caesar'
> 
> Friends, Romans, countrymen, lend me your ears;
> I come to bury Caesar, not to praise him.
> ...


I dunno, it just looks to me as if he is mistakenly referring to Johnson as honourable. He makes no referrence to Shakespeare does he?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Carry On version was better.


sadly not all of it, but


----------



## brogdale (Dec 14, 2020)

Some cheer on a grey day.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> I dunno, it just looks to me as if he is mistakenly referring to Johnson as honourable. He makes no referrence to Shakespeare does he?


if boris johnson said 'infamy! infamy! they've all got it in for me!' you wouldn't expect his next line to be 'like kenneth williams said in carry on cleo'


----------



## teqniq (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if boris johnson said 'infamy! infamy! they've all got it in for me!' you wouldn't expect his next line to be 'like kenneth williams said in carry on cleo'


Johnson chats any old shit so nothing would surprise me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Johnson chats any old shit so nothing would surprise me.


he is perhaps the most repulsive individual to ever occupy number 10, and as you might imagine that's up against some quite stiff competition


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> sadly not all of it, but




They've missed out the Harold MacMillan gag!


----------



## bimble (Dec 14, 2020)

This is exciting. Looking now like there will be some sort of deal after all but because of all the wasted time / brave brinkmanship we also get to find out for a short while what no deal looks like .?








						Short no-deal period possible in January, says Barnier
					

The EU's chief Brexit negotiator has told member states that there could be a short no-deal period at the beginning of January even if a deal is reached with the UK in the coming days, RTÉ News understands.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is exciting. Looking now like there will be some sort of deal after all but because of all the wasted time / brave brinkmanship we also get to find out for a short while what no deal looks like .?
> 
> 
> 
> ...







😎


----------



## andysays (Dec 14, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is exciting. Looking now like there will be some sort of deal after all but because of all the wasted time / brave brinkmanship we also get to find out for a short while what no deal looks like .?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So it's Deal and No Deal...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> he is perhaps the most repulsive individual to ever occupy number 10, and as you might imagine that's up against some quite stiff competition


More repulsive than Thatcher?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> More repulsive than Thatcher?


do you know, i think he might be


----------



## Smangus (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if boris johnson said 'infamy! infamy! they've all got it in for me!' you wouldn't expect his next line to be 'like kenneth williams said in carry on cleo'



He would of course sprinkle some cod Latin phrases in there for good measure.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 14, 2020)

Smangus said:


> He would of course sprinkle some cod Latin phrases in there for good measure.


tbh i wouldn't be surprised if his phrases were less than apposite and more like delboy's 'mange tout, rodders'


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 14, 2020)

Smangus said:


> He would of course sprinkle some cod Latin phrases in there for good measure.


Odcay atinlay?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh i wouldn't be surprised if his phrases were less than apposite and more like delboy's 'mange tout, rodders'


Ah, digitos piscibus, amicus meus.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 14, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> do you know, i think he might be


A close call but I think you are right here. 

Thatcher was an awful cunt but didn't hide it. She also had (cruel but still) a bit of a brain. 

This cunt fails on everything, is still a cunt but pretends to be your mate.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2020)

Thatcher was worse thus far...


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 14, 2020)

Badgers said:


> A close call but I think you are right here.
> 
> Thatcher was an awful cunt but didn't hide it. She also had (cruel but still) a bit of a brain.
> 
> This cunt fails on everything, is still a cunt but pretends to be your mate.



Thatcher actually did what she said she was going to do most of the time, often when many people thought she wouldn’t. Johnson’s pretty much the opposite.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 14, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The Carry On version was better.


Brexit is a bit like a Carry On film, it goes on for ages and isn't funny.

Meanwhile, are the Tories (Roger Gale anyway) finally waking up to the no deal madness.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 14, 2020)

Well it seems the news is good, they are beginning to compromise, now we just have to see if Johnson will accept such a compromise from his negotiators?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 14, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Thatcher actually did what she said she was going to do most of the time, often when many people thought she wouldn’t. Johnson’s pretty much the opposite.


Well she is credited for much of the creation of the EU so I can understand the hindsight fondness towards her legacy emerging from some remainers.


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well she is credited for much of the creation of the EU so I can understand the *hindsight fondness towards her legacy emerging from some remainers*.



Not on here. Here, the only discussion up there was only the question of whether Johnson was even worse than Thatcher as a PM.

TBH, I reckon I'd be hardpushed to find *any* erstwhile anti-Thatcher people who have become fond of her, however remainey, unless they were Tories in the first place


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

William of Walworth said:


> Not on here. Here, the only discussion up there was only the question of whether Johnson was even worse than Thatcher as a PM.
> 
> TBH, I reckon I'd be hardpushed to find *any* erstwhile anti-Thatcher people who have become fond of her, however remainey, unless they were Tories in the first place


When the ‘EU’ was being created Fatch was creating Mr Whippy ice cream, so not sure she should be credited with the origins of the suprastate, tbh.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> When the ‘EU’ was being created Fatch was creating Mr Whippy ice cream, so not sure she should be credited with the origins of the suprastate, tbh.


Maastricht.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 15, 2020)

The Tories on the other side of the debate weren't any better, tbf.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> The Tories on the other side of the debate weren't any better, tbf.
> 
> View attachment 243591


I'll say one thing for Enoch Powell, he never wrote a book which claimed Hitler won at Stalingrad


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Maastricht.


Fatch sat in the Lords then and spoke against signing the bill to ratify.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fatch sat in the Lords then and spoke against signing the bill to ratify.


She signed one big bit of pro euro legislation.  Which one?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 15, 2020)

Interesting that the consensus on urban75 seems to be that "Thatcher was even better than Boris Johnson".


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> She signed one big bit of pro euro legislation.  Which one?


single european act 1985


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Interesting that the consensus on urban75 seems to be that "Thatcher was even better than Boris Johnson".


interesting you should take that tack. but sadly typical. the consensus on urban is that boris johnson is even worse than margaret thatcher.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> She signed one big bit of pro euro legislation.  Which one?


There's more than enough to hate about Thatcher's politics and record in office without the need to make stuff up. She plainly was not  "credited for much of the creation of the EU" and was staunchly sceptical about ever closer political union of members of the supra-state.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2020)

Neither of them have the record for killing greatest number of people though


----------



## teuchter (Dec 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> interesting you should take that tack. but sadly typical. the consensus on urban is that boris johnson is even worse than margaret thatcher.


Change the wording to obfuscate, if you like. But we can all see that you like Thatcher even more than you like Boris Johnson and it has been noted in my notebook for posterity.


----------



## andysays (Dec 15, 2020)

brogdale said:


> There's more than enough to hate about Thatcher's politics and record in office without the need to make stuff up. She plainly was not  "credited for much of the creation of the EU" and was staunchly sceptical about ever closer political union of members of the supra-state.


She was also, if I remember correctly, very keen on expanding the EU further eastward to include ex-Soviet satellites.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> single european act 1985


Indeed; a singularly pro-(neoliberal) capital act, not _pro euro._


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I'll say one thing for Enoch Powell, he never wrote a book which claimed Hitler won at Stalingrad


i prefer luke haines et al's revelations about the TRUE history of britain and powell's role in it.









						The North Sea Scrolls - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




Haines described his motivation for the project: "It occurred to me that we understand everything now. I wanted to do something that made people go, 'What the fuck is this?' There comes a time in a man's life, when he must make the ultimate concept album.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 15, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Neither of them have the record for killing greatest number of people though



That would belong to either Winston Churchill, David Lloyd George or H.H. Asquith, most probably.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

tufty79 said:


> i prefer luke haines et al's revelations about the TRUE history of britain and powell's role in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



the reference was of course to boris johnson who has made the statement in his book about churchill


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2020)

Flavour said:


> That would belong to either Winston Churchill, David Lloyd George or H.H. Asquith, most probably.



That did come to mind as I was sitting down to read the responses, but I think Churchill's let off this one since the dispute wasn't exactly of his making.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 15, 2020)

Something something carpet bombing of civilians long after the war was effectively won


----------



## tufty79 (Dec 15, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> the reference was of course to boris johnson who has made the statement in his book about churchill


you and your facts


----------



## two sheds (Dec 15, 2020)

My mistake: "Mr Churchill is not remembered fondly in India and during the Bengal famine in 1943, where up to three million people died, the war-time Prime Minister refused to send aid and said it was the fault of the Indians for “breeding like rabbits”.









						Britain responsible the deaths of 35 million Indians, politician who says we need to face up to colonial past points out
					

The Congress MP also calls for the Victoria Memorial in Kolkata to be turned into a museum about colonial rule




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Going to be stiff competition though: "“…Nor is there any memorial to the massacres of the Raj, from Delhi in 1857 to Amritsar in 1919, the deaths of 35 million Indians in totally unnecessary famines caused by British policy,” he [Mr Tharoor] added."


----------



## Flavour (Dec 15, 2020)

The ongoing Brexit Lorry Park scandal in Kent is so funny 









						Scottish airfield earmarked as post-Brexit lorry park
					

Exclusive: Transport Scotland hopes to use site in case of delays at ferry terminals linking with Northern Ireland




					www.theguardian.com
				




Every conceivable thing about it is a disaster


----------



## Winot (Dec 15, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The ongoing Brexit Lorry Park scandal in Kent is so funny
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh god talk about emblematic


----------



## gosub (Dec 15, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Maastricht.



If Malcom Rifkin had done better minutes it wouldn't have happened


----------



## ska invita (Dec 15, 2020)

BJ is going to India in January to pick up where May left off.
To recap the first thing May did after the referendum was go to India, and be told any trade deal was predicated on increased migration access and would take a minimum of ten years. 

Johnson in India...shudder








						Boris Johnson to visit India to boost jobs and prosperity
					

The Prime Minister will travel to India in January 2021 to strengthen a key strategic relationship which supports jobs and investment across the UK.




					www.gov.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> BJ is going to India in January to pick up where May left off.
> To recap the first thing May did after the referendum was go to India, and be told any trade deal was predicated on increased migration access and would take a minimum of ten years.
> 
> Johnson in India...shudder
> ...


here's hoping he has a severe attack of delhi belly


----------



## ska invita (Dec 15, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The ongoing Brexit Lorry Park scandal in Kent is so funny
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm sure it won't rain between now and April


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> BJ is going to India in January to pick up where May left off.
> To recap the first thing May did after the referendum was go to India, and be told any trade deal was predicated on increased migration access and would take a minimum of ten years.
> 
> Johnson in India...shudder
> ...




He's going to do 'accents', isn't he.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 15, 2020)

He's going to say "Right! Who wants mackerel?"


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

Raheem said:


> He's going to say "Right! Who wants mackerel?"


&/or one of Hancock's neighbours makes curry paste that needs an export market...

#WorldBeating


----------



## 2hats (Dec 15, 2020)




----------



## Poot (Dec 15, 2020)

2hats said:


>



Their lips were moving, were they?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 15, 2020)

ska invita said:


> BJ is going to India in January to pick up where May left off.
> To recap the first thing May did after the referendum was go to India, and be told any trade deal was predicated on increased migration access and would take a minimum of ten years.
> 
> Johnson in India...shudder
> ...



Boris leaving the country will increase prosperity though.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 15, 2020)

Poot said:


> Their lips were moving, were they?


They're Tories, so only the bottom lip.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 15, 2020)

2hats said:


>




A few tweets further on:



Oh the irony of the ERG lot claiming to want to read something in detail!


e2a -  it looks as if it's premature anyway:


----------



## teqniq (Dec 15, 2020)

haha


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Boris leaving the country will increase prosperity though.


Yeh but he should be sent to south georgia from where there is no return


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 15, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> He's going to do 'accents', isn't he.


He has been coached by the duke of edinburgh


----------



## brogdale (Dec 15, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> A few tweets further on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Johnson already has the LP's vote though?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 15, 2020)

Let's hope the ERG tossers can't fuck this up for the rest of us.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 15, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Let's hope the ERG tossers can't fuck this up for the rest of us.


Bit late to hope that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 16, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Let's hope the ERG tossers can't fuck this up for the rest of us.


2019 wants its post back


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2020)

Another fantastic win for Brexit. Be proud Brexiteers! 









						Facebook will move UK users to US terms, avoiding EU privacy laws
					

Company is reportedly making the change partly because the EU privacy regime is among the world’s strictest




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Flavour (Dec 17, 2020)

Does this mean we won't have to click that annoying cookie agreement thing every time that we go to a new site? that would be ace


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 17, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Does this mean we won't have to click that annoying cookie agreement thing every time that we go to a new site? that would be ace


Well worth the destruction of civilisation as we know it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Does this mean we won't have to click that annoying cookie agreement thing every time that we go to a new site? that would be ace


cookies and cream all round


----------



## gosub (Dec 17, 2020)

editor said:


> Another fantastic win for Brexit. Be proud Brexiteers!
> 
> 
> 
> ...







__





						Can the GDPR and Freedom of Expression Coexist? | American Journal of International Law | Cambridge Core
					

Can the GDPR and Freedom of Expression Coexist? - Volume 114




					www.cambridge.org
				





It's saved you some GDPR headaches from the likes of BonathonJishop


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

GDPR isn't quite right. It can be abused by people to waste others' time, hours and hours of it, with vexatious, unsubstantiated claims and requests, often hoovering up the time of unpaid volunteers running member organisations. 

Meanwhile, the US system is wide open to abuse by government. 

Both systems need overhauling.


----------



## editor (Dec 17, 2020)

gosub said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He was a mere gnat to be swatted away effortlessly.


----------



## gosub (Dec 17, 2020)

editor said:


> He was a mere gnat to be swatted away effortlessly.


Back in the pre GDPR days.  (And I bet you GDPR is one of his latest 'expertise'


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

gosub said:


> Back in the pre GDPR days.  (And I bet you GDPR is one of his latest 'expertise'


I have personal experience of how much a malicious person can fuck people over with GDPR. An organisation I help to run (all volunteer) spent hours supplying redacted emails - any email mentioning this person's name - with not a shred of evidence offered as to why they were needed.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 17, 2020)

What odds can I get on a last minute deal being signed?  The more Boris, Gove et al. make gloomy public pronouncements on how unlikely a deal is looking, the more convinced I become that it’s definitely going to get agreed.  Just on the simple logic that they can be relied upon 100% to be lying, each and every time they open their mouths.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 17, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> What odds can I get on a last minute deal being signed?  The more Boris, Gove et al. make gloomy public pronouncements on how unlikely a deal is looking, the more convinced I become that it’s definitely going to get agreed.  Just on the simple logic that they can be relied upon 100% to be lying, each and every time they open their mouthes.


Johnson.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Johnson.


Yes, him.  Or were you calling me a penis?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> GDPR isn't quite right. It can be abused by people to waste others' time, hours and hours of it, with vexatious, unsubstantiated claims and requests, often hoovering up the time of unpaid volunteers running member organisations.


how much does this happen though?


----------



## gosub (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> how much does this happen though?











						A Year in the Life of the GDPR: Must-Know Stats and Takeaways
					

This review of the GDPR covers how it's changed the way industries and individuals function online through GDPR stats, fines and policies of this past year




					www.varonis.com


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

gosub said:


> A Year in the Life of the GDPR: Must-Know Stats and Takeaways
> 
> 
> This review of the GDPR covers how it's changed the way industries and individuals function online through GDPR stats, fines and policies of this past year
> ...


what are you suggesting I look at here?


----------



## gosub (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> what are you suggesting I look at here?


*Enforcement agencies overwhelmed with scope* — There seem to be staffing shortages that hindered some agencies from keeping up with complaints and notifications.

144,000 complaints filed
89,000 data breaches recorded


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

gosub said:


> *Enforcement agencies overwhelmed with scope* — There seem to be staffing shortages that hindered some agencies from keeping up with complaints and notifications.
> 
> 144,000 complaints filed
> 89,000 data breaches recorded


That wasn't what I was asking about though. LBJ was suggesting it's open to abuse via vexatious complaints (tbh this is true of many regulations) - I was asking in practice whether this actually happens very much. Can't imagine it does, but I'd be happy to see some figures if there is any.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 17, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Johnson.


Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson


the former person alexander johnson, masquerading under the moniker 'boris johnson' as prime minister of the united kingdom: as tho such a place existed


----------



## andysays (Dec 17, 2020)

Badgers said:


> Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson


Disgraced Prime Minister and serial philanderer Johnson, to give him his full title


----------



## brogdale (Dec 17, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Yes, him.  Or were you calling me a penis?


Not really, but using the cunt's preferred, professional forename is pretty dickish


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> What odds can I get on a last minute deal being signed?  The more Boris, Gove et al. make gloomy public pronouncements on how unlikely a deal is looking, the more convinced I become that it’s definitely going to get agreed.  Just on the simple logic that they can be relied upon 100% to be lying, each and every time they open their mouths.


surprised you're on second name terms with the liar johnson but don't enjoy a similar intimacy with the wretch gove


----------



## weltweit (Dec 17, 2020)

I was worried the GDPR regulations could create a lot more work for my organisation but since it came into force the only GDPR request we have had to date was to delete one individuals details from our records.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 17, 2020)

andysays said:


> Disgraced Prime Minister and serial philanderer Johnson, to give him his full title


I dunno... 

DPMJ has a neatness about it


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2020)

Badgers said:


> I dunno...
> 
> DPMJ has a neatness about it


but DPMJ RIP - rest in penguins - sounds better


----------



## andysays (Dec 17, 2020)

Badgers said:


> I dunno...
> 
> DPMJ has a neatness about it


It's succinct, I'll give you that


----------



## brogdale (Dec 17, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> rest in penguins


 
If you've used that before I've not noticed...that caused Bishop's to be spluttered over the old keyboard!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> how much does this happen though?


It has happened at least once. I would be surprised if my organisation were really exceptional. Someone with a petty grudge has wide scope to fuck people up.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It has happened at least once. I would be surprised if my organisation were really exceptional. Someone with a petty grudge has wide scope to fuck people up.


well as I said - this is a feature of many regulations.

I had to do a lot of work on GDPR the other year (and on Data Protection in general before that) - it's difficult to know what you could do to make it grudge-proof, without leaving massive gaps in the regulations.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> well as I said - this is a feature of many regulations.
> 
> I had to do a lot of work on GDPR the other year (and on Data Protection in general before that) - it's difficult to know what you could do to make it grudge-proof, without leaving massive gaps in the regulations.


Even before this fucker fucked us around, GDPR was causing massive headaches. It's one thing for businesses trying to make money out of people to be made to tighten up, but quite another for volunteer-run organisations that need to get information across to people. And there was never any proper consensus as to exactly what we were obliged to do, even though some of the people involved did this stuff for a living.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

If you're holding people's personal data, why would it matter if you're making money out of it or not - you still have a responsibility to make sure it's kept securely and disposed of in a timely fashion when it's no longer needed.

There is a lot of bullshit about regarding it mind, and a lot of companies & orgs went off the deep end calling in consultants and tightening things up way more than they actually needed to. It's not actually all that arduous.


----------



## grit (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> There is a lot of bullshit about regarding it mind, and a lot of companies & orgs went off the deep end calling in consultants and tightening things up way more than they actually needed to. *It's not actually all that arduous.*



This is the key point, when you boil it down to its basics its basically "only use the data for the original use it was collected for and when you don't need it anymore delete it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

What counts as personal data? That was one question that didn't have a totally clear answer. We even had someone claiming that an email address was personal data! We had to tighten up on how we stored bank details for people, which was a good thing to do and not that hard, but other stuff impeded us from being able to do our work putting on events for members and communicating clearly. 

And this particular vexatious incident involved a demand from a former officer (who had left under a cloud) to see all emails from the last two years that mentioned their name. I voted to tell them to get stuffed, but they were threatening court action and I was outvoted. It took _ages_ because all other names had to be redacted. And this is a problem when someone threatens court action. You can be stuffed even if they're wrong.


----------



## andysays (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What counts as personal data? That was one question that didn't have a totally clear answer. We even had someone claiming that an email address was personal data! We had to tighten up on how we stored bank details for people, which was a good thing to do and not that hard, but other stuff impeded us from being able to do our work putting on events for members and communicating clearly.
> 
> And this particular vexatious incident involved a demand from a former officer (who had left under a cloud) to see all emails from the last two years that mentioned their name. I voted to tell them to get stuffed, but they were threatening court action and I was outvoted. It took _ages_ because all other names had to be redacted. And this is a problem when someone threatens court action. You can be stuffed even if they're wrong.


I don't claim to be an expert on data protection law, but on a common sense level, an email address clearly *is* personal data.


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

an email address is personal data, of course. 

and your former officer did have the right to see those emails (and did before GDPR, under the old data protection act). It might be annoying, but they're important legal protections, and if you found yourself in need of making a similar demand from an organisation you left _under a cloud_, I'm pretty sure you'd be glad of them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 17, 2020)

killer b said:


> an email address is personal data, of course.
> 
> and your former officer did have the right to see those emails (and did before GDPR, under the old data protection act). It might be annoying, but they're important legal protections, and if you found yourself in need of making a similar demand from an organisation you left _under a cloud_, I'm pretty sure you'd be glad of them.


Nah. Didn't leave the organisation. Just got booted out as an officer. It was a vexatious action, spite pure and simple.

With GDPR, the problems came with who was allowed to have access to things like members' email addresses. We weren't publishing them, but we need to have them. I don't claim expertise in this, but then that's also one of the problems - when this kind of new regulation comes in for volunteer organisations, it can (and did with us) just make some people say 'fuck it, not doing it any more'.


----------



## grit (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What counts as personal data? That was one question that didn't have a totally clear answer.



Its in the document under Article 4 - Definitions L_2016119EN.01000101.xml

"



‘personal data’ means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person (‘data subject’); an identifiable natural person is one who can be identified, directly or indirectly, in particular by reference to an identifier such as a name, an identification number, location data, an online identifier or to one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural or social identity of that natural person;


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I voted to tell them to get stuffed, but they were threatening court action and I was outvoted. It took _ages_ because all other names had to be redacted. And this is a problem when someone threatens court action. You can be stuffed even if they're wrong.


people shouldn't really have to threaten court action to get their hands on information about them, should they


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2020)

Gove’s such a snivelling prick.

From the BBC today;

He said his "new resolution" is to avoid giving percentages on the chances of a Brexit deal.

Less than 50%' chance of Brexit deal by Sunday night


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nah. Didn't leave the organisation. Just got booted out as an officer. It was a vexatious action, spite pure and simple.


so you say - he may have a different take. The GDPR regulations can't take a view on which it is, but letting the data controller decide if a subject access request was genuine or not would be far more open to abuse than the current system - you must recognise that?


----------



## killer b (Dec 17, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> With GDPR, the problems came with who was allowed to have access to things like members' email addresses. We weren't publishing them, but we need to have them.


this stuff is actually really straightforward tbh. did anyone check?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 17, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Five’s such a snivelling prick.


I liked his early singles. Stuff like Got the Feelin and Slam Dunk the Funk.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 17, 2020)

Raheem said:


> I liked his early singles. Stuff like Got the Feelin and Slam Dunk the Funk.



Edited before you posted...


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 17, 2020)

My major problems with GDPR were (as a user) the million fucking emails from people who were taking a cargo cult approach to dealing with it and (as a developer) dealing with corporate lawyers paid ten times as much as I was who hadn't read the legislation, had no idea what it meant, had no idea what the company actually did or what data was stored and why, didn't care about any of the former, and yet still their random proclamations had to be obeyed. The actual _regulations_ always seemed pretty good to me.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 17, 2020)

FridgeMagnet said:


> My major problems with GDPR were (as a user) the million fucking emails from people who were taking a cargo cult approach to dealing with it and (as a developer) dealing with corporate lawyers paid ten times as much as I was who hadn't read the legislation, had no idea what it meant, had no idea what the company actually did or what data was stored and why, didn't care about any of the former, and yet still their random proclamations had to be obeyed. The actual _regulations_ always seemed pretty good to me.



For me the main thing it was I had to send an email to the office confirming that I didn't have anyone's personal data on an unsecured device. All the paperwork pertinent to that job was done with pencil and paper and physically handed over to someone so I don't know what devices they thought I was using.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 17, 2020)

GPDR is going to be interesting 

the outlock for the custom process with the EU after the exit is also looking so much fun


----------



## agricola (Dec 17, 2020)

Farage has started early on the multi-level marketing thing, I see.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 17, 2020)

There has been progress but serious difficulties remain:  Brexit: Trade talks in 'a serious situation' says Boris Johnson - BBC News


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 17, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> GPDR is going to be interesting



That'll make a change!


----------



## William of Walworth (Dec 17, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> What odds can I get on a last minute deal being signed?  *The more [Johnson], Gove et al. make gloomy public pronouncements on how unlikely a deal is looking, the more convinced I become that it’s definitely going to get agreed*.



That's what I've been thinking for quite some time.



> Just on the simple logic that they can be relied upon 100% to be lying, each and every time they open their mouths.



But not so much for that reason, true though it is.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2020)

Seems to be just down to fish now.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems to be just down to fish now.


The slippery little fuckers just won't give in, will they?


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

The fish thing.
Is it possible the reason this is (being made to seem) so important is because of the whole Rules the Waves plucky seafaring nation bollocks being so central symbolically to the nationalist imagination here?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> The fish thing.
> Is it possible the reason this is (being made to seem) so important is because of the whole Rules the Waves plucky seafaring nation bollocks being so central symbolically to the nationalist imagination here?


Exactly; emblematic of a project which only really exists in the realms of imagination.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> The fish thing.
> Is it possible the reason this is (being made to seem) so important is because of the whole Rules the Waves plucky seafaring nation bollocks being so central symbolically to the nationalist imagination here?


Nowadays Britain prefers to waive the rules


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems to be just down to fish now.


The scales have been lifted from the EU's eyes


----------



## tommers (Dec 18, 2020)

Mate, stop.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The scales have been lifted from the EU's eyes


fin des discussions?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2020)

I don’t know.  Whilst it’s always tempting to fuck off an industry that seems to have little impact on your life, it must be true that if it isn’t important, it shouldn’t be important to the Euros either.  It either has value or it doesn’t.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> fin des discussions?


Johnson's herring nothing he wants from the eu


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 18, 2020)

This is just not the plaice. I've haddock up to here with these fish puns. I hake them so much. Etc


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

Just tried for the first time to get my head round what britain is actually asking for, fish-wise, and am now even more confused than before. Something about the ownership of boats that fly under a uk flag and something about a 200 mile 'exclusive economic zone ' in which all the fish are British citizens? Calais to dover is about 20 miles? I give up.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 18, 2020)

If it is down to the fish then I assume it's going to be the border in the Irish sea 'solution'.
Which of course is not what was on the referendum ballot paper.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> The fish thing.
> Is it possible the reason this is (being made to seem) so important is because of the whole Rules the Waves plucky seafaring nation bollocks being so central symbolically to the nationalist imagination here?


It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 18, 2020)

Only remainers would think fish are irrelevant. Just shows how disconnected many are.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Only remainers would think fish are irrelevant. Just shows how disconnected many are.


Disconnected from what? salt of the earth fishermen? How important are fish, important enough to be the thing that makes the difference between a deal and not a deal ? Apparently the whole fishing industry is about 0.1% of the economy, there must be more people working as dog groomers. 
thats why i'm surprised its supposedly the last sticking point, seems like they've reached agreement on stuff that will have bigger consequences than whatver the outcome is with the fish.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Only remainers would think fish are irrelevant. Just shows how disconnected many are.


More than half of the British fishing quota (specifically the _English_ fishing quota - Scotland is totally different) was sold off to foreign interests in the 1990s. Not at the behest of the EU. Classic British laissez-faire economics is what has led to this situation. This sudden concern from Johnson and co is rank hypocrisy.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

Some interesting fish-facts in here. Basically we import almost all of the fish that we actually want to eat (mostly cod) and depend on the eu to sell the stuff we don't want to eat (which is most of what we catch, herrings and stuff with shells) . UK fishing industry, or Brexit's red herrings | DW | 27.11.2019


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> The fish thing.
> Is it possible the reason this is (being made to seem) so important is because of the whole Rules the Waves plucky seafaring nation bollocks being so central symbolically to the nationalist imagination here?



Also fish and chips being the "national dish," etc. - I think the Leave side managed to muddy the waters on fish caught by British fishermen and fish eaten by British people, when there's not that much overlap between the two.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

All i really understand now is that the price of cod is definitely not going to go down after brexit  .


----------



## andysays (Dec 18, 2020)

I just they'd stop piscine about and either come up with a deal or recognize that there isn't going to be one.


----------



## gosub (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> Some interesting fish-facts in here. Basically we import almost all of the fish that we actually want to eat (mostly cod) and depend on the eu to sell the stuff we don't want to eat (which is most of what we catch, herrings and stuff with shells) . UK fishing industry, or Brexit's red herrings | DW | 27.11.2019



90% of cod from UK waters ends up in France according to BBC telly news last week


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2020)

Fuck Brexit. It's going to fuck over ordinary people and for what? Still, the health insurance companies will do nicely out of it and those who can't afford may end up being seriously shafted. 


> *Can I go on holiday to the EU next year?*
> As it stands, no. Because of Covid, travellers from most non-EU countries can't visit except for essential reasons.
> After 31 December, the UK will no longer be treated like a member of the EU, so becomes subject to these rules.
> The only non-EU countries exempted are those with very low infection rates, such as New Zealand.





> *What about health insurance?*
> The European Health Insurance Card (EHIC) will no longer be valid. It entitled about 27 million British citizens to state-provided medical treatment if they fell ill or had an accident in EU countries, as well as a number of others.
> So, when you arrange your travel insurance you should make sure it has health cover.











						Travel after Brexit: How will it affect my holidays to the EU?
					

A simple guide to how leaving the EU will affect travel to Europe.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.


Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.

ETA: One of the many ironies here is that Scotland's fishing is largely safe from brexit shenanigans because it wasn't sold off. And despite being one tenth of the size, Scotland does more fishing than England. Fishing is far more important to Scotland than England. A few numbers here:

Brexit trade deal: Who really owns UK fishing quotas?


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

There are a LOT of results when you google 'cod' and brexit. Cod is much more important than i thought, obviously.

eta love the disambiguation at the start of this: Cod Wars - Wikipedia


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.


Absolutely. It's the same level of deceitful crap that produced the flat-out lie that the NHS would somehow benefit from a monthly multi million bonanza if we left the EU.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> More than half of the British fishing quota (specifically the _English_ fishing quota - Scotland is totally different) was sold off to foreign interests in the 1990s. Not at the behest of the EU. Classic British laissez-faire economics is what has led to this situation. This sudden concern from Johnson and co is rank hypocrisy.



I don't fully understand why the ownership of licenses is relevant. A license doesn't represent "ownership" of a portion of the sea, does it? It represents permission from the UK to fish in the UK's waters and use a portion of the UK's quota. Presumably, the UK govt is paid revenue by the companies that own the licenses, or do they really own them outright and in perpetuity?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> Just tried for the first time to get my head round what britain is actually asking for, fish-wise, and am now even more confused than before. Something about the ownership of boats that fly under a uk flag and something about a 200 mile 'exclusive economic zone ' in which all the fish are British citizens? Calais to dover is about 20 miles? I give up.


.  



EEZ is a sea land grab that claims rights for exploitation outside the normal 6/12 territorial waters convention. This is what proved irksome fir the brits when Iceland invoked theirs last century. It gives rights to resciources but not any kind of ownership of the area itself iykwim. Obvs we can’t use in the North Sea because Europe.  


 ETA - we have a UK IE agreement for mutual access to our respective EEZ areas. I have no idea if this is impacted by Brexit , have not considered it - falls outside EU diktat. Might be an issue in the future is not already tho’


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2020)

Arguably the EU CFP ensured that there was fish left to haggle over in the first place.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 18, 2020)

Maybe this educational piece featuring the late Mark E Smith will help clear up any confusion about the history of fishing rights.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> 90% of cod from UK waters ends up in France according to BBC telly news last week



That consists of half a dozen fish and what on closer inspection turned out to be a boot.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever the wrongs of EU fishing policies over the decades, English fishing was sold out and sold off in the 1990s, something that was not forced on the UK by the EU. It happened because nobody gave a shit about saving English fishermen. I suggest you look that up because a lot of total crap is being spoken about fishing atm and I think bimble is right that this has symbolic nationalist importance more than anything, and coming from people who have never given a toss about British fishing or fishermen before.
> 
> ETA: One of the many ironies here is that Scotland's fishing is largely safe from brexit shenanigans because it wasn't sold off. And despite being one tenth of the size, Scotland does more fishing than England. Fishing is far more important to Scotland than England. A few numbers here:
> 
> ...




And here.









						Brexit: The fisherman’s tale – DW – 11/27/2019
					

The fishing industry is a key issue in the debate over Brexit. But how did an industry that makes up only 0.1% of the UK economy become such a big deal?




					www.dw.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2020)

Btw, that majority of UK catch is Scots in origin. I cannot see this being any kind of issue at all with Scottish nationalists. Nope


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Btw, that majority of UK catch is Scots in origin. I cannot see this being any kind of issue at all with Scottish nationalists. Nope


And as mentioned above, nearly all of it is caught by Scottish fishermen. Fishing is approximately twenty times more important to Scotland than England as an industry.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

editor said:


> Absolutely. It's the same level of deceitful crap that produced the flat-out lie that the NHS would somehow benefit from a monthly multi million bonanza if we left the EU.


It's the tory way. In the past the trick was to run down nationalised industries so that privatisation will be the saviour. Now, you underfund the NHS and brexit will be the saviour. Gut English fishing, and somehow, laughably, brexit terms are key to its survival. We of course know that the NHS lie was a lie (it was obvious at the time tbf), and the idea that Brexit will lead to a resurgence of English fishing is also a lie. Other lies include the idea that EU subsidy for places like Cornwall would be replaced by an equivalent British subsidy.

Meanwhile, we lose the right to travel and work freely across Europe.

This is what tory-led brexit looks like. It's a fucking ugly thing.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 18, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems to be just down to fish now.



So if the UK does eventually walk away from the table without a deal, they will actually be able to sign off with the phrase “so long, and thanks for all the fish?”


----------



## editor (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's the tory way. In the past the trick was to run down nationalised industries so that privatisation will be the saviour. Now, you underfund the NHS and brexit will be the saviour. Gut English fishing, and somehow, laughably, brexit terms are key to its survival. We of course know that the NHS lie was a lie (it was obvious at the time tbf), and the idea that Brexit will lead to a resurgence of English fishing is also a lie. Other lies include the idea that EU subsidy for places like Cornwall would be replaced by an equivalent British subsidy.
> 
> Meanwhile, we lose the right to travel and work freely across Europe.
> 
> This is what tory-led brexit looks like. It's a fucking ugly thing.


I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

I cannot think of a single upside to brexit. Not one. I can point to literally hundreds of specific, detailed downsides.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 18, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.


Tick tock, tick tock, tick tock....


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.


Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I don't fully understand why the ownership of licenses is relevant. A license doesn't represent "ownership" of a portion of the sea, does it? It represents permission from the UK to fish in the UK's waters and use a portion of the UK's quota. Presumably, the UK govt is paid revenue by the companies that own the licenses, or do they really own them outright and in perpetuity?


This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website. 





__





						Remain are LYING to UNDERMINE Taking Back Control of fishing. | Fishing for Leave
					





					ffl.org.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They appear to be a little confused as to the difference between the word 'British' and the word 'English'.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm still waiting for an unrepentant Brexit voter to explain to me exactly what benefits we will all be enjoying when Brexit finally happens and why all the extra expense, inconvenience, job, food and travel restrictions, and all the other costly hindrances to ordinary people was worth it.


Reminds me of when I had an actual discussion (that didn't descend into ranty shouting) with a local UKIP member about what motivated their activism. I straight up asked whether, for them, it was immigration or sovereignty that drove their energy for Leave; the answer was quite revealing; they admitted it was both, but essentially came down on the side of 'sovereignty' because _it's so important that we're able to keep the Queen._


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Reminds me of when I had an actual discussion (that didn't descend into ranty shouting) with a local UKIP member about what motivated their activism. I straight up asked whether, for them, it was immigration or sovereignty that drove their energy for Leave; the answer was quite revealing; they admitted it was both, but essentially came down on the side of 'sovereignty' because _it's so important that we're able to keep the Queen._


hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?

That's Biden-is-a-communist level of delusion.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?



Maybe they thought EU courts would rule that the queen belongs to Germany.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> hang on what? wtf does the EU have to do with the monarchy? They do know that there are half a dozen monarchies in the EU?
> 
> That's Biden-is-a-communist level of delusion.


The UKIP activist/member running their street-stall genuinely thought that the issue of sovereignty concerned the continued existence of the monarchy. I'll admit that I was lost for words.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2020)

There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit.  One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world.  This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers.  The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live.  This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas.  So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.



As I have explained to you before, this is untrue. Why are you just repeating drivel from gammon Twitter all over the place?

e2a - some good points in Robert Saunders' thread here:


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit.  One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world.  This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers.  _The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live.  This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas_.  So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.



Have you a source for this ?


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 18, 2020)

What the government seems to ignore about fishing dispute is, the social, economic, and environmental costs to UK of negotiated arrangement of shared access to fishing waters is insignificant compared with the overall costs to UK of a no deal Brexit. The negotiations are locked in with the symbolic, ideological values of territorial waters, not the pragmatic social, economic, and environmental costs and benefits of the fishing resources. Relaxing fishing rights is a trade-off for access to single market and overall benefits of a Brexit deal. An amicable agreement reached on compromise, and economics is not renunciation of UK’s legal rights. Hypothetically, UK can leave the Brexit agreements unilaterally on a future date if the situation arise, along with reciprocal social, economic and other consequences.


----------



## killer b (Dec 18, 2020)

AnandLeo said:


> What the government seems to ignore about fishing dispute is, the social, economic, and environmental costs to UK of negotiated arrangement of shared access to fishing waters is insignificant compared with the overall costs to UK of a no deal Brexit.


they aren't _actually_ ignoring this, they just want it to seem like they are.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Have you a source for this ?


There’s a lot out there, but this is a good paper




__





						Loading…
					





					www.tandfonline.com


----------



## Winot (Dec 18, 2020)

Gossip but he is quite well-connected:


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

kabbes said:


> There are at least two very different principle sources of motivation for Leave voters, even leaving aside the more niche motivations such as Lexit.  One of them is the idea of Britain as a global player being “held back” by and “stuck” in Europe, preventing it from getting out into the wider world.  This is the principle representation seen in middle-England Leavers.  The other is the idea of a vulnerable Britain under cultural attack from a hegemonic Europe, who want to steal our pints and tell us how to live.  This is the principle representation seen in Leavers from more deprived northern areas.  So you can’t even say that there is just one conceptualisation of the nation-state and its relationship with other nation-states that is driving people, let alone just one motivating factor.


I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.

iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.
> 
> iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.


This was part of the representation indeed (and one covered in some depth here if you’re interested).  That paper I linked to above, though, identifies that although an association between Eastern Europeans in particular with orientalist stigmas had indeed been established as common-sense “fact” across the board, it was something that existed as an _adjunct_ to the way people understood the Europe-Britain relationship.  It wasn’t the dangers of immigrants that dictated this understanding of the relationship.  Remainers understood Europe as a desirable cosmopolitan backdrop and had an internationalist ideology — that was how they constructed what Europe meant even though they _also_ demonstrated this ”undesirable East vs desirable West Europe” understanding.  By contrast, Leavers saw Europe as one of the ways I mentioned above.

The point is that people’s motivations aren’t straightforward.  Certainly not as straightforward as “vote to get rid of foreigners” or “vote to keep the queen”.  These are parodies of Leaver positions that do nothing except ensure that no true engagement is necessary, because what’s the point of engaging with morons?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.


IIRC a number of studies did find that rates of accession state EU immigration was correlated significantly with L voting, though not as strongly as with other factors including educational qualifications, unemployment and mean age.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm kind of past caring about why various people voted to leave, but let's not forget another very important factor, possibly the most important factor, the one pushed hardest by Farage's lot: Foreigners coming over here and stealing our jobs/housing/benefits/NHS/shops/whatever else. This is the shit that Johnson openly played on last year before the election, coming out with racist language about Eastern Europeans coming over here and bringing their culture. The most openly racist language from a Tory leader that I've ever heard.
> 
> iirc immigration was cited as a very important issue by more than 70% of leave voters when polled. And the more immigrants there were in an area, the fewer people voted leave. That was a very robust nationwide pattern. This was very much a case of a problem perceived to be true but not directly experienced as true.


A couple of days before the referendum I was arguing in a hospital with some women who said they were voting leave because of immigration and refused to accept the NHS only worked because of er immigrants


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> IIRC a number of studies did find that rates of accession state EU immigration was correlated significantly with L voting, though not as strongly as with other factors including educational qualifications, unemployment and mean age.


Even that's not straightforward, though. wrt income, the very poorest weren't strongly leave. The leave vote found most resonance with people who are a little above the bottom. I do have some sympathy with aging blue collar workers who feel that there has been an influx of people taking their jobs and depressing wages since EU expansion. They were sold a con if they were convinced that brexit was the answer, though, as I'm afraid they are going to find out in the coming years. A far more effective response would have involved making a common cause with their fellow workers, wherever they are from.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Even that's not straightforward, though. wrt income, the very poorest weren't strongly leave. The leave vote found most resonance with people who are a little above the bottom. I do have some sympathy with aging blue collar workers who feel that there has been an influx of people taking their jobs and depressing wages since EU expansion. They were sold a con if they were convinced that brexit was the answer, though, as I'm afraid they are going to find out in the coming years. A far more effective response would have involved making a common cause with their fellow workers, wherever they are from.


I really wasn't offering any commentary on the supposed motivations or their validity, merely the correlations revealed by psephological analysis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> psephological analysis.


mind games for the middle classes


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> mind games for the middle classes


Many a doctoral thesis, no doubt


----------



## Flavour (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Nowadays Britain prefers to waive the rules



This is the best joke you've made all year


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This is the best joke you've made all year


Nah, mate...he peaked yesterday with the _rest in penguins _for Johnson.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This is the best joke you've made all year


still waiting for you to offer a bon mot


----------



## Smangus (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's because we were screwed by the EU over fishing in the 70's.


-
It's because the fishing companies sold most  of the UK fishing rights to the EU in the 90's and now want them back.

edit , as has been pointed out a few time previously oops.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This is the best joke you've made all year


Not his own, even if he's happy to pass it off as such; it's been used by headline writers for several decades - google it.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Not his own, even if he's happy to pass it off as such; it's been used by headline writers for several decades - google it.


Good to hear from our special correspondent for humour.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> This may help. It might not directly answer your query but your question is the best hook i could find for a link to this website.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I found this 









						The allocation of fishing rights in UK fisheries
					






					researchportal.port.ac.uk
				




It says:



> Whichever way the quota management system develops in the future, it is worth noting that the Government has never attempted to extract any resource rent from the industry through quota or licence fees, nor indeed to recoup any of its management costs through charges. It has so far allowed all the returns from sales of licences and quota (initially freely given by the Government) to remain in private hands (see Hatcher and Pascoe 1998). This attitude may change if the costs of management increase significantly or if quota prices increase in a more organized and efficient market environment.


 
If there is _potential_ for the UK govt to change its approach on this, and "attempt to extract any resource rent" then the way it looks to me is that control of quotas does have some value to the UK, and whatever that value is, isn't affected by whether the licenses are currently under foreign or UK "ownership". It's for that reason that I suggest that the fact that many licenses are currently in foreign ownership isn't necessarily that relevant to the current situation.

Of course it may still be the case that the actual value of the control of these licenses is minuscule in proportion to everything else.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Nah, mate...he peaked yesterday with the _rest in penguins _for Johnson.



I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole South Georgia / former people running joke and try not to encourage it


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?



Didn't they explicitly rule out physical documentation to prove settled status as well? A very sane approach to take after... erm, not issuing those documents for the Windrush generation and its not like any issues happened with that recently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

Oh this will end well


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I'm actually not a huge fan of the whole South Georgia / former people running joke and try not to encourage it


I encourage it so you don't have to


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> A couple of days before the referendum I was arguing in a hospital with some women who said they were voting leave because of immigration and refused to accept the NHS only worked because of er immigrants


Middle Q told me once that the hospital where she worked was so diverse that she was convinced she was in Star Fleet rather than the NHS


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh this will end well



It'll all end in tiers.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Didn't they explicitly rule out physical documentation to prove settled status as well? A very sane approach to take after... erm, not issuing those documents for the Windrush generation and its not like any issues happened with that recently.


It's all crap and lies. As I understand it, people will have to carry stuff with them along with their passports whenever they travel, or have something to access on their phones at the passport control, which amounts to the same thing as physical documentation.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

_Who wants to live in a country like that?

 _


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?


It wasn’t free was it ? I thought it cost people a few hundred quid to get their settled status papers, cheaper if you did it earlier.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> It wasn’t free was it ? I thought it cost people a few hundred quid to get their settled status papers, cheaper if you did it earlier.


No it was free. But I'd wager it won't be free in five years' time.

Some kinds of visa are staggeringly expensive. Mate of mine spent three grand on a work visa. They're a nice little earner.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Another fuck up I only found out the other day. The settled status for EU citizens isn't permanent. They have to renew it every time they renew their passports. It was free first time. Who's going to bet it will still be free in three or four years' time?


What makes you think that's a fuck up? Sounds quite deliberate to me


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it was free. But I'd wager it won't be free in five years' time.
> 
> Some kinds of visa are staggeringly expensive. Mate of mine spent three grand on a work visa. They're a nice little earner.


Oh, they changed their minds last year and made it free (apart from the hours you spend gathering the Evidence you have to send with your application).








						Brexit: Refunding EU settled status fees costs up to £1.95m
					

More than 30,000 EU nationals have applied for post-Brexit settled status, a minister tells the Lib Dems.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)




----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Maybe this educational piece featuring the late Mark E Smith will help clear up any confusion about the history of fishing rights.



"We can be quite reasonable about this. Give us the fucking cod."


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 18, 2020)

If the UK want to be nothing more than a sole trader, then let them at it


----------



## gosub (Dec 18, 2020)

Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban | Brexit | The Guardian


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Suspect we'll soon get bored with footage like this appearing day after day and the helicopters fly ever Westward in search of the ned of the queue.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

BBC radio news just said these words...


> Boris Johnson has just requested that the EU see sense


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> BBC radio news just said these words...


He only sees euros and cents


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban | Brexit | The Guardian


Insult to injury


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Insult to injury


Those caught in the Dover TAP are threatened with prosecution if they leave their cabs. No wonder so many hauliers are rejecting the prospect of driving out of the supra-state into UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Those caught in the Dover TAP are threatened with prosecution if they leave their cabs. No wonder so many hauliers are rejecting the prospect of driving out of the supra-state into UK.


Tap? They're not going to faucet I hope


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 18, 2020)

gosub said:


> Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban | Brexit | The Guardian



But we were promised pork markets


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Tap? They're not going to faucet I hope


For real...we're all going down the tube, for sure...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Fuck it; tonight we're having one of the last lettuces in UK...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> For real...we're all going down the tube, for sure...



Tap stands for TAking the Piss


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fuck it; tonight we're having one of the last lettuces in UK...
> 
> View attachment 244065


Push the boat out


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Push the boat out


Gotta let yer gut know it's nearly solstice!


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

People are going to start panic buying soon, aren't they.  Be interesting to see how that affects the 'negotiations'...


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 18, 2020)

weltweit said:


> If I understand you correctly, about the potential future application of market controls like future tariffs in response to changes, I don't have a problem with it.



That is a possible impact than a foreseeable certainty. Such delayed, future isolated impacts might avail UK a breathing space to negotiate a Brexit deal comprising a whole raft of issues for now that is operable for a foreseeable future.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> People are going to start panic buying soon, aren't they.  Be interesting to see how that affects the 'negotiations'...


What country does bogroll come from?


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 18, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> And here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The fishing industry, communities, and the fishing waters are all important irrespective of its proportion in the UK economy.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 18, 2020)

Raheem said:


> What country does bogroll come from?



google 


> Is toilet paper made in UK?
> The *UK* used around 1.25 million tonnes of hygiene *paper* in 2019; more than half in the form of *toilet tissue* and the remainder as hand, facial, industrial and sanitary *tissues*. About half of this *tissue* was *made* in the *UK* – at 17 *tissue* mills – with the balance being imported.10 Mar 2020


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> People are going to start panic buying soon, aren't they.  Be interesting to see how that affects the 'negotiations'...


"..start.."?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> "..start.."?


I've just finished


----------



## Flavour (Dec 18, 2020)

Can see a delicious new opportunity for crime if there are lorry queues held overnight on motorways


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

brogdale said:


> "..start.."?



Yes, in the sense of descending on the shops like some people did in March.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Yes, in the sense of descending on the shops like some people did in March.


For "the shops" read "the major supermarkets". Up in stokey there were people queuing for a Sainsbury's with loads of bare shelves literally in front of an independent Turkish supermarket which had a ton of bog roll and tomatoes and rice and pasta, I know cos I got some there. Throughout that sorry episode I found the independent shops far better stocked than the big names, and my parents relied on a small supermarket near them which was always able to keep them supplied. Tell you one thing, I won't be going near a Sainsbury's or Tesco's if there's a supply shock in the new year, I'll be going to the local independents I can rely on having full (or at least fuller) shelves


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Only remainers would think fish are irrelevant. Just shows how disconnected many are.


Fish are relevant. But I don't know where Johnson expects to find new fishermen, it ain't going to happen.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> Some interesting fish-facts in here. Basically we import almost all of the fish that we actually want to eat (mostly cod) and depend on the eu to sell the stuff we don't want to eat (which is most of what we catch, herrings and stuff with shells) . UK fishing industry, or Brexit's red herrings | DW | 27.11.2019


Where do you think kippers come from if not herring? Plenty of people eat herring in the UK.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Where do you think kippers come from if not herring? Plenty of people eat herring in the UK.


But not nearly as many as do in Scandinavia.
In the UK I assume people mostly eat out of season cod or haddock.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Fish are relevant. But I don't know where Johnson expects to find new fishermen, it ain't going to happen.


Cod farms, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Cod farms, though.


Ugh lice


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 18, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> But not nearly as many as do in Scandinavia.
> In the UK I assume people mostly eat out of season cod or haddock.


Come round ours, always eating the kippered herring and rollmops and the like


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Where do you think kippers come from if not herring? Plenty of people eat herring in the UK.


I did not know that a kipper is a herring based item.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> For "the shops" read "the major supermarkets". Up in stokey there were people queuing for a Sainsbury's with loads of bare shelves literally in front of an independent Turkish supermarket which had a ton of bog roll and tomatoes and rice and pasta, I know cos I got some there. Throughout that sorry episode I found the independent shops far better stocked than the big names, and my parents relied on a small supermarket near them which was always able to keep them supplied. Tell you one thing, I won't be going near a Sainsbury's or Tesco's if there's a supply shock in the new year, I'll be going to the local independents I can rely on having full (or at least fuller) shelves



Yes, that's very true.   I mainly shop at independents and I didn't notice shortages of anything except flour, and rice became difficult to get for a week or so, but that was it.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

The covid empty shelves were only due to stupid panic buying though not to actual supply issues to do with it being 4 times more expensive to transport stuff to the Uk?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

Yes, if there's an actual shortage of anything in the New Year, you can bet that what there is will be headed to Tesco's and not the Turkish mini-mart.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Where do you think kippers come from if not herring? Plenty of people eat herring in the UK.



They do, but in nowhere near the quantity the fleet can catch, and much the same is true of a lot of shellfish and - even more so - mackerel.  Conversely, under no realistic fishing deal will they be able to take enough white fish to satisfy the British consumer, who's steadfastly refused to change their preferences no matter how much the price of cod goes up and however much effort is put into persuading them to try something else!


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> The covid empty shelves were only due to stupid panic buying though not to actual supply issues to do with it being 4 times more expensive to transport stuff to the Uk?



Well, exactly.  The penny doesn't seem to have dropped with a lot of people that the queues to Dover and Calais are only the start of it, and at some point supply chains are going to be disrupted to the point where things become unavailable.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 18, 2020)

the bloater famine of 2021


----------



## brogdale (Dec 18, 2020)

Before long we'll be following the anti-kebab salads tossers along the pavement to scrape up their discarded shredded iceberg.


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Well, exactly.  The penny doesn't seem to have dropped with a lot of people that the queues to Dover and Calais are only the start of it, and at some point supply chains are going to be disrupted to the point where things become unavailable.


The queues right now are basically shops stocking up to avoid having empty shelves if no deal aren’t they. So it might still all be fine. Adequate Food , sunlit uplands etc.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 18, 2020)

Will there be enough marmite?


----------



## bimble (Dec 18, 2020)

Really old article but haven’t heard anything recently about what the government is doing to secure the prize of ‘adequate food supplies’ in case of no deal. Maybe some of those trucks are headed towards government stockpiles but probably not.








						Raab admits planning to secure food supply for no-deal Brexit
					

Government not stockpiling food but working to prevent problems, says Brexit secretary




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 18, 2020)

bimble said:


> Really old article but haven’t heard anything recently about what the government is doing to secure the prize of ‘adequate food supplies’ in case of no deal. Maybe some of those trucks are headed towards government stockpiles but probably not.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 18, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> What odds can I get on a last minute deal being signed?  The more Boris, Gove et al. make gloomy public pronouncements on how unlikely a deal is looking, the more convinced I become that it’s definitely going to get agreed.  Just on the simple logic that they can be relied upon 100% to be lying, each and every time they open their mouths.


Boris does what’s good for Boris. He has to get a deal, the delay is all performance, so he can show how hard he’s been on the EU. No deal and he’d exit via the trap door.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 18, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Will there be enough marmite?


Always a worry


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Will there be enough marmite?


Depends. What are you planning?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 18, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Depends. What are you planning?


Daily intravenous injections.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 18, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Daily intravenous injections.


There'll be enough for the first shot, and I wouldn't worry about it after that.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 18, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Will there be enough marmite?


there is always vegemite from the australian deal if it comes to a shortage of the hated stuff


----------



## weltweit (Dec 19, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Boris does what’s good for Boris. *He has to get a deal*, the delay is all performance, so he can show how hard he’s been on the EU. No deal and he’d exit via the trap door.


I am not sure I share your analysis, Johnson might prefer a deal but he has made it quite clear that he considers Britain can still thrive on a no deal exit. Is he telling porkies, is he just stating a position for the sake of his negotiations? Perhaps, but I think there is some truth that if the deal doesn't live up to expectations he feels he can take his ball away in a sulk and got to WTO terms.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 19, 2020)

Doesn't Johnson think that team GB will be totally brilliant whatever deal or no deal? That being the case he can't make a mistake, can he? We Brits will seize success from the jaws of defeat, regardless of the actions of the nanny state. Whatever happens it will be the best possible outcome.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 19, 2020)

Might sound obvious, but what he says doesn't necessarily reflect what he plans to do.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 19, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Might sound obvious, but what he says doesn't necessarily reflect what he plans to do.


It does sound obvious yes


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 19, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Well, exactly.  The penny doesn't seem to have dropped with a lot of people that the queues to Dover and Calais are only the start of it, and at some point supply chains are going to be disrupted to the point where things become unavailable.



Supply chains are already disrupted. Not so much Dover-Calais but at the container ports like London Gateway and Felixstowe from where we get stuff like rice, beds, shirts and fairy lights. It began earlier this year when lock-downs prompted a global shortage of shipping containers and everything started being in the wrong place with not enough people to move or unload it. If a ship can't unload all it's containers in the allotted time it has to leave and the containers go on a mystery tour before they can finally be reallocated back to their destination country.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> The queues right now are basically shops stocking up to avoid having empty shelves if no deal aren’t they. So it might still all be fine. Adequate Food , sunlit uplands etc.



Well, that and Christmas, and there are some other logistical issues atm with congestion at certain ports (Felixstowe, especially) and a shortage of containers, which can't be helping.  Problem is, though, that even if a deal is done, HM Customs and other authorities will be relying on new and untested systems, inexperienced personnel and facilities that in some cases haven't even been built yet.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 19, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Supply chains are already disrupted. Not so much Dover-Calais but at the container ports like London Gateway and Felixstowe from where we get stuff like rice, beds, shirts and fairy lights. It began earlier this year when lock-downs prompted a global shortage of shipping containers and everything started being in the wrong place with not enough people to move or unload it. If a ship can't unload all it's containers in the allotted time it has to leave and the containers go on a mystery tour before they can finally be reallocated back to their destination country.



'Great' minds think alike - see post above.  It's a bit of a perfect storm taking shape.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 19, 2020)

EU hauliers refuse to enter the UK due to border delays
					

European hauliers are often paid by the kilometre, "so if they're not rolling, they're not making money"




					www.thegrocer.co.uk


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 19, 2020)

Cynical but possibly prescient take here about the prospects of a 'deal':


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


> EU hauliers refuse to enter the UK due to border delays
> 
> 
> European hauliers are often paid by the kilometre, "so if they're not rolling, they're not making money"
> ...


If that is already happening (some importers willing to pay 7,000 euro instead of 2,000 for a truck full of tomatoes to get here instead of not getting here at all) that’s bad. That’s adequate food only for people who can pay 3 times more for tomatoes.


----------



## Winot (Dec 19, 2020)

All the detail you need.









						Brexit talks: Last-minute agony over fish and state aid
					

At some point between the Boris Johnson-Ursula von der Leyen dinner on 9 December, and last Sunday morning, something changed.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 19, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I am not sure I share your analysis, Johnson might prefer a deal but he has made it quite clear that he considers Britain can still thrive on a no deal exit. Is he telling porkies, is he just stating a position for the sake of his negotiations? Perhaps, but I think there is some truth that if the deal doesn't live up to expectations he feels he can take his ball away in a sulk and got to WTO terms.



He can't just walk away from a deal because there aren't enough Tories that would accept that politically and all those swing voters would feel let down for a long time. His election promise was 'Get Brexit done.' He has to deliver, voters won't forgive him. Let's not forget that masses of issues had already been agreed and that things are setup to run relatively smoothly in '21 if a deal is signed.

I do hear myself echoing BJ with his 'Fuck Business' quote but with 'Fuck Fish,'


----------



## Badgers (Dec 19, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 19, 2020)




----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

If that rte piece is right then it really is down to the fish. And some of those fish related demands coming from the Uk don’t seem reasonable at all. Which genius came up with the negotiation starting position on fish from which ‘we’ apparently won’t budge. 
Getting worried in an apathetic sort of way now. What happens if you put tomatoes in the freezer?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> If that rte piece is right then it really is down to the fish. And some of those fish related demands coming from the Uk don’t seem reasonable at all. Which genius came up with the negotiation starting position on fish from which ‘we’ apparently won’t budge.
> Getting worried in an apathetic sort of way now. What happens if you put tomatoes in the freezer?


They freeze


----------



## Boris Sprinkler (Dec 19, 2020)

I have started getting email notifications from UK based retailers I have shopped with previously. As now, there may be VAT charges and other levys on shipping to Europe. Damn. What to do.

 Guess I will shop elsewhere than the UK where I dont have to pay those new extra charges. It's not hard. And its not been thought through really has it.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They freeze


Internet says they are mushy when thawed but fine for cooking. Which is what tinned tomatoes are for.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> If that is already happening (some importers willing to pay 7,000 euro instead of 2,000 for a truck full of tomatoes to get here instead of not getting here at all) that’s bad. That’s adequate food only for people who can pay 3 times more for tomatoes.


It's not linear. The transport costs rising by 300% does not necessarily increase the price of tomatoes by 300%.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


>



The piss flinging is the drivers literally complying with one part of the contradictory regulations imposed within the Dover TAP; they can't leave their cabs (!) and can't get rid of human waste. Given the circs, reckon I'd fling...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's not linear. The transport costs rising by 300% does not necessarily increase the price of tomatoes by 300%.


Merely an adequate price hike?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban
					

Regulations on biosecurity and other issues will affect hauliers from 1 January




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Merely an adequate price hike?


Tomatoes in December is weird anyway.


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 19, 2020)

Luckily a deal will be easy to make as our politicians hold all the cards


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Internet says they are mushy when thawed but fine for cooking. Which is what tinned tomatoes are for.


Now you're asking what happens when you take tomatoes out of the freezer, a completely different question


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

Chilli.s said:


> Luckily a deal will be easy to make as our politicians hold all the cards


They just can't read them


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The piss flinging is the drivers literally complying with one part of the contradictory regulations imposed within the Dover TAP; they can't leave their cabs (!) and can't get rid of human waste. Given the circs, reckon I'd fling...
> 
> View attachment 244193


Ah but if you fling it onto the verge or central reservation you should be ok


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 19, 2020)

Turns out that the cards are only cue cards from overpaid press team with buzzwordy slogans on


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Tomatoes in December is weird anyway.


Not really; we've always imported winter Toms...there's a reason why Canary Wharf was so named.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not really; we've always imported winter Toms...there's a reason why Canary Wharf was so named.


There's a reason it's canary wharf and not tomato wharf. The importing of songbirds used to dwarf the volume of food imported


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 19, 2020)

Amazed to find the Canary Islands are actually "The Islands of *Dogs*" - ironically


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Amazed to find the Canary Islands are actually "The Islands of *Dogs*" - ironically


And curiously Princess Diana is buried of the isle of dogs at althorp, alongside generations of dogs put down by the Spencer family


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And curiously Princess Diana is buried of the isle of dogs at althorp, alongside generations of dogs put down by the Spencer family


First tomatoes in December now this.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And curiously Princess Diana is...


That's ruined my day now...got my usual flash-back to the 1997 Clive James review of the year video piece in which they showed footage of Charles walking behind the gun carriage with the Verve's _Lucky Man _playing. 
Always makes my sides ache.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Anyway...back to Brexshite...anyone heard any rumours of lettuce availability?


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Anyway...back to Brexshite...anyone heard any rumours of lettuce availability?


In December? What is wrong with you. Turnips and wrinkly apples ftw.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 19, 2020)

Winot said:


> All the detail you need.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Both sides had shifted the level playing field trolly off the political kerb and into the technical space.



Quite a metaphor mash-up, that.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> In December? What is wrong with you. Turnips and wrinkly apples ftw.


Green beans from Kenya and Peruvian asparagus in Dec is the remainer birthright.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Avocado supply cannot be interrupted.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Green beans from Kenya and Peruvian asparagus in Dec is the remainer birthright.


Nah, both those places are in the free-world of greater _Trussland._


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Anyway. This exhausting process must be ending soon.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 19, 2020)

I'm old enough that remembering how things were in the 60s is getting more and more difficult ... I guess we're going to find out soon enough.
Luckily it's cold enough for me to stockpile red peppers to a certain extent ...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Nah, both those places are in the free-world of greater _Trussland._


But is their agreement with the EU currently and not the UK?


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Surely it's got to be Quinoa if you're going full-on faragist/pub landlord tribute act?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.


(thin) rats & rainwater


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.


February was always a lean month on the allotment. Chard. Yes Chard would be available. Plus marrows are always there.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.







__





						Nine Crops to Harvest in March | BBC Gardeners World Magazine
					

Advice on which crops to harvest in March, including leeks, rhubarb and kale, plus tips on harvesting, from the experts at BBC Gardeners' World Magazine.



					www.gardenersworld.com


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.


Kale and winter/spring greens...  Very nice indeed


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's OK just to take these things from the rich people's gardens?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I cant get on with Kale.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's OK just to take these things from the rich people's gardens?


More than ok.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I cant get on with Kale.


I thought that until I got hold of the proper leaf Kale, not the horrid chopped up stuff in bag.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I cant get on with Kale.


Fried with chilli and pine nuts and served with pasta


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's not linear. The transport costs rising by 300% does not necessarily increase the price of tomatoes by 300%.



A lorry of tomatoes (20 tonnes) retails at £40,000, so it's more like a 12.5% increase.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> A lorry of tomatoes (20 tonnes) retails at £40,000, so it's more like a 12.5% increase.


And if it's say ten tonnes of tomatoes and ten tonnes of pine nuts?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 19, 2020)

As proponents of shoplifting and fare-bunking frequently like to remind us on here, the price of something to the consumer is essentially unrelated to the costs of supplying it. So the tomatoes will be fine.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And if it's say ten tonnes of tomatoes and ten tonnes of pine nuts?



Absurdly unlikely.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Maybe brexit will be the thing that finally forces me to learn to cook more than 3 things


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Absurdly unlikely.


What experience do you have of the haulage industry?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Maybe brexit will be the thing that finally forces me to learn to cook more than 3 things


What are your current 3?


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What are your current 3?


Foreign muck.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Foreign muck.


Quinoa cous cous and pasta?


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Pasta is one .  I don’t really understand the point of cous cous and can’t even pronounce quinoa .


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Pasta is one .  I don’t really understand the point of cous cous and can’t even pronounce quinoa .


The point of cous cous is it's easy to make and takes only a couple of minutes as opposed to about 10 mins for rice or pasta


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The point of cous cous is it's easy to make and takes only a couple of minutes as opposed to about 10 mins for rice or pasta


Yeah but it’s just very tiny pasta.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Yeah but it’s just very tiny pasta.











						Couscous: Just Don’t Call It Pasta (Published 2009)
					

Couscous is a convenient staple ideal for winter stews.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## Flavour (Dec 19, 2020)

Cous Cous is shite tbf


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Cous Cous is shite tbf


You're just not making it right


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 19, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Amazed to find the Canary Islands are actually "The Islands of *Dogs*" - ironically



Cos the Romans found the islands teeming with dogs and the Latin for dogs also relates to your pointy teeth...


----------



## Chilli.s (Dec 19, 2020)

Couscous makes fine salads, like the ones that cost loads to buy, piss easy to make, cost buttons


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kind of curious as to which vegetables are acceptable during the months of February -March, TopCat any guidance? I think that’s when the great British farmers have nothing.



April to May is the hungry gap I believe.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 19, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> April to May is the hungry gap I believe.


There is a variety of kale with that very name, Hungry Gap, I believe.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

Kippers and kale. 2021 is going to be brilliant.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 19, 2020)

I also heard that they are about to release a new variant of kale onto the market on the 1st January, with the name 'Brexit Famine Prevention', or did I just dream that?


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 19, 2020)

Back to the Middle Ages now and should be oats and parsnips most of the year round.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 19, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Back to the Middle Ages now and should be oats and parsnips most of the year round.



Sounds alright to me.


----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

As long as a return to beer instead of water is part of the plan things should work out fine.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 19, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Sounds alright to me.



I'll smuggle in a few 9 bars of proper mash from Ireland occasionally.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> As long as a return to beer instead of water is part of the plan things should work out fine.



Pissy water, marmite, and parsnips! Oh what wonders!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Back to the Middle Ages now and should be oats and parsnips most of the year round.


Let's have a rerun of 1381 only this time kill the king at blackheath. Or Boris Johnson


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> Back to the Middle Ages now and should be oats and parsnips most of the year round.


I’d be ok with this tbh as long as the supplies of dried chillies don’t run out.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 19, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> 'Great' minds think alike - see post above.  It's a bit of a perfect storm taking shape.


any port in a storm
oh
wait


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> There is a variety of kale with that very name, Hungry Gap, I believe.


And the name by which the last 4 years of the Johnson/Sunak administration will be known to future historians.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

I gather the Dover lorry queue, or M20 as we used to know it, is now > 5 miles*

*none of that revolutionary French nonsense!


----------



## Flavour (Dec 19, 2020)

I wonder what the volume of trucks coming into Dover was like before 1973


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 19, 2020)

Motorway Traffic Cameras - Select a traffic camera on the M20 Eastbound
					

Motorway Traffic Cameras - View live CCTV images and traffic news. Covering the M1, M4, M5, M6, M25, M40, M60, M62 and more.




					www.motorwaycameras.co.uk
				




not nice for everyone involved in this


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> Kippers and kale. 2021 is going to be brilliant.


pizzas grow in all seasons


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I gather the Dover lorry queue, or M20 as we used to know it, is now > 5 miles*
> 
> *none of that revolutionary French nonsense!


It must be weird. Having to comply with police directions and never leave the cab for an unspecified amount of queueing up time. Ginsters pies and adult nappies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I wonder what the volume of trucks coming into Dover was like before 1973


They were smaller in those days


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ginsters pies and adult nappies.


And that's just for the cops


----------



## Raheem (Dec 19, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They were smaller in those days


They were just as loud, though.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

Shell shocked: 'Lobster capital' braces for Brexit
					

Live shellfish exporters in East Yorkshire and Devon say new certification requirements are 'unworkable'



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ginsters pies


Known as Gangsters round our way


----------



## andysays (Dec 19, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I also heard that they are about to release a new variant of kale onto the market on the 1st January, with the name 'Brexit Famine Prevention', or did I just dream that?


The bad news is that any vegetables like kale which you might hope to harvest during the spring to fill the hungry gap should have been planted months ago and done much of their growing already.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> The bad news is that any vegetables like kale which you might hope to harvest during the spring to fill the hungry gap should have been planted months ago and done much of their growing already.


Wasn't all that sowing done back in the heady days of British jobs for British workers euphoria that followed our escape from the neoliberal supra-state? Now we shall reap as we have sown...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Wasn't all that sowing done back in the heady days of British jobs for British workers euphoria that followed our escape from the neoliberal supra-state? Now we shall real as we have sown...


There was no real or genuine effort made to recruit UK workers to farm.

There were more articles in the Guardian moaning on about lazy brits than there were actual recruitment adverts for farm work aimed at UK workers.


----------



## andysays (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Wasn't all that sowing done back in the heady days of British jobs for British workers euphoria that followed our escape from the neoliberal supra-state? Now we shall real as we have sown...


I've got some kale, sprouts and leeks on my allotment; don't think it's enough to feed 60 million people though...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There was no real or genuine effort made to recruit UK workers to farm.
> 
> There were more articles in the Guardian moaning on about lazy brits than there were actual recruitment adverts for farm work aimed at UK workers.


Shit Year Zero.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

andysays said:


> I've got some kale, sprouts and leeks on my allotment; don't think it's enough to feed 60 million people though...


Got any security guarding that plot?


----------



## andysays (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Got any security guarding that plot?


You may have noticed that although I've posted quite often about my allotment, I've never mentioned its actual location.

I certainly don't want a bunch of hungry Urbanite free loaders thinking they can muscle in on my over-wintering brassicas


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It must be weird. Having to comply with police directions and never leave the cab for an unspecified amount of queueing up time. Ginsters pies and adult nappies.


Almost Trumpian


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> As long as a return to beer instead of water is part of the plan things should work out fine.



I have a theory* that there was a close correlation between the lack of clean drinking water and the spread of the British Empire. Basically we were all continuously and collectively slightly pissed for a few hundred years, and so went round nicking countries like students nicking traffic cones. Once universal clean drinking water came in, we sobered up, looked around at what we'd done and sheepishly handed things back. 

* almost certainly bollocks but still...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 19, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 244189


the face that launched a thousand shits


----------



## Badgers (Dec 19, 2020)

First they came for the ham sarnies 





__





						Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Regulations on biosecurity and other issues will affect hauliers from 1 January




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Raheem (Dec 19, 2020)

The gammons will be furious about this.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 19, 2020)

Gerry1time said:


> I have a theory* that there was a close correlation between the lack of clean drinking water and the spread of the British Empire. Basically we were all continuously and collectively slightly pissed for a few hundred years, and so went round nicking countries like students nicking traffic cones. Once universal clean drinking water came in, we sobered up, looked around at what we'd done and sheepishly handed things back.
> 
> * almost certainly bollocks but still...



This is akin to that theory the Roman state failed because of lead pipes.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 19, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> This is akin to that theory the Roman state failed because of lead pipes.



Indeed. Hence me saying it’s bollocks


----------



## brogdale (Dec 19, 2020)

That 2021 menu in full...Sovereignty pie with lashings of Control-taking gravy....


----------



## philosophical (Dec 19, 2020)




----------



## bimble (Dec 19, 2020)

out of pity right now for our new strain of the virus and the incompetence of our rulers the eu should just unilaterally postpone our whole stupid brexit idea until sometime next year. It’s like a very drunk person with no shoes on trying to start a fight about fish, the only honourable thing is to ignore them say you’ll discuss it in the morning.


----------



## gosub (Dec 19, 2020)

bimble said:


> out of pity right now for our new strain of the virus and the incompetence of our rulers the eu should just unilaterally postpone our whole stupid brexit idea until sometime next year. It’s like a very drunk person with no shoes on trying to start a fight about fish, the only honourable thing is to ignore them say you’ll discuss it in the morning.



Can't do that, you'd end up with outbreaks of cheese and ham sandwiches all over the EU


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 19, 2020)

keep on glancing at this thread and misreading as transubstantiation


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

philosophical said:


> View attachment 244272


You must be loving this you auld misanthrope


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That 2021 menu in full...Sovereignty pie with lashings of Control-taking gravy....


In a change to the advertised menu it's humble pie and castrol gravy


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 19, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> keep on glancing at this thread and misreading as transubstantiation


Transubstantiation is no longer allowed across EU borders after 1st January, as the importation of wheat product subsequently changed to meat product (the actual body of Christ) is prohibited, as is the conversion of wine into blood, even in the form of black pudding. This, rather than the diversionary tactic of fishing quotas (and whilst we're on the subject just how many can you feed with 5 loaves and two fishes?), is what is really holding up the Brexit talks.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

Wasn't Sunday the latest deadline? 

Also, no wonder fish is a sticking point, Barnier used to be the French fishing minister.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 20, 2020)

the suspension of all flights & trains between UK - Brussels impacting negotiations would be a convenient excuse for them to finally back down and ask for an extension to the transition period.


----------



## gosub (Dec 20, 2020)

Cerv said:


> the suspension of all flights & trains between UK - Brussels impacting negotiations would be a convenient excuse for them to finally back down and ask for an extension to the transition period.



They are not going to do that, especially NOT citing Covid. 

As much as they are fucking up everything, not being tied into the EU fiscal response to Covid is a plus.


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

48hr ban on goods travelling from France to uk is a warning shot i reckon. Covid related but very much negotiations related i reckon.


----------



## not a trot (Dec 20, 2020)

philosophical said:


> View attachment 244272



All those vehicles, and not one of them can run the cunt over.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 20, 2020)

Supine said:


> 48hr ban on goods travelling from France to uk is a warning shot i reckon. Covid related but very much negotiations related i reckon.


it's the other way around UK to the continent that is stopped


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> it's the other way around UK to the continent that is stopped



Oh yeah. Same situation though as drivers often deliver in both directions.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 20, 2020)

Supine said:


> Oh yeah. Same situation though as drivers often deliver in both directions.


yes, unload at port and grab another unit that got unloaded on the other side
Major disruption to the tight schedules of ferries but do-able with advance planning...


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

Channel tunnel also shutting for 48hrs


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 20, 2020)

It’s a bit tora bora this whole Brexit thing innit. Built up by the government and sympathetic press into something world changing and significant. But when we actually got there after a long battle, it was just a piss stained hole with shit in the corner


----------



## grit (Dec 20, 2020)

Does this confirm a no deal scenario on Jan 1st?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

I don't think it definitely does. The powers that be could decide to delay again.


----------



## Winot (Dec 20, 2020)

grit said:


> Does this confirm a no deal scenario on Jan 1st?




Apparently the European Parliament can retrospectively agree a deal. So no.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 20, 2020)

It’s a good thing they used last week’s absolutely last post-deadline deadline to agree the extra week for a final final final deadline, otherwise they wouldn’t have had the time to agree this extra deadline.


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

grit said:


> Does this confirm a no deal scenario on Jan 1st?




80% chance (based on no scientific or specialist knowledge)


----------



## bimble (Dec 20, 2020)

It’s all going to be fine. Just a little mini-siege for a few days to contain the new strain & focus our minds on the empty shelves then a deal will be triumphantly agreed by Johnson. Maybe.


----------



## agricola (Dec 20, 2020)

Supine said:


> 48hr ban on goods travelling from France to uk is a warning shot i reckon. Covid related but very much negotiations related i reckon.



It certainly makes no sense whatsover if its solely Covid related.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

bimble said:


> It’s all going to be fine. Just a little mini-siege for a few days to contain the new strain & focus our minds on the empty shelves then a deal will be triumphantly agreed by Johnson. Maybe.


I think much will depend on the accompanying rhetoric (to the cutting off of the continent).


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> It’s a bit tora bora this whole Brexit thing innit. Built up by the government and sympathetic press into something world changing and significant. But when we actually got there after a long battle, it was just a piss stained hole with shit in the corner


By contrast with tora bora we have Boris Johnson holed up under CCTV scrutiny in the centre of london with the world's media following his every move. He will not emulate bin Laden's brazen escape


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2020)

bimble said:


> It’s all going to be fine. Just a little mini-siege for a few days to contain the new strain & focus our minds on the empty shelves then a deal will be triumphantly agreed by Johnson. Maybe.


Saudi Arabia has agreed to offer Johnson asylum as they did Idi Amin. Whether he is able to take up the offer...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

Well the 48 hour ban (which no sane person would bet against it being extended) will enable stress testing of all the no deal preparations.  Is that big lorry customs point in Ashford nearly finished?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well the 48 hour ban (which no sane person would bet against it being extended) will enable stress testing of all the no deal preparations.  Is that big lorry customs point in Ashford nearly finished?


No


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

Are there lorries of lobster turning back and heading to Billingsgate?


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)




----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2020)

Supine said:


>


did you think the other posts were unconfirmed?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

I wonder what they will do with their ferries currently in Calais, if they bring a load back, what then?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

48 hours though is an arbitrary time period, related only to politics. It is likely to be longer. How just in time is our food? Will it be balanced by not exporting food?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 20, 2020)

Time to invade France again. Fuck this shit.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

"The government has already accepted that the absence of sanitary facilities in Kent for lorry drivers is an issue with plans to put in Portaloos for Brexit. These plans may now need to be brought forward.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 20, 2020)

They're effectively imposing no deal 10 days in advance


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> 48 hours though is an arbitrary time period, related only to politics. It is likely to be longer. How just in time is our food? Will it be balanced by not exporting food?


I am less worried about food, even if people's favourite foods are not there there will be food in the supermarkets and people will just have to adjust. 

My concern is medicines. I (and many others) need specific medicines.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

French drivers curling one out whilst grilling ox heart kebabs as we speak.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I am less worried about food, even if people's favourite foods are not there there will be food in the supermarkets and people will just have to adjust.
> 
> My concern is medicines. I (and many others) need specific medicines.


Imports are getting in.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Imports are getting in.


For how long, when the ferries are all in Dover and don't have anything to carry back?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Imports are getting in.


 Questionable, how many drivers will drive loads into Britain if they aren't sure of getting out?


----------



## tommers (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Imports are getting in.


Lorry drivers don't usually want to go to places they can't drive back from.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

Anyhow the food and drink association is warning about fresh food in UK supermarkets. 

Perhaps they know something we don't.


----------



## tommers (Dec 20, 2020)

This is really bad. I mean, that probably doesn't need saying but this is really bad.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 20, 2020)

More panic buying ensues. Fucking hell.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> More panic buying ensues. Fucking hell.


Eek!


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

Might do my Christmas shop tomorrow not Tuesday


----------



## tommers (Dec 20, 2020)

We moved to Folkestone last Wednesday


----------



## brogdale (Dec 20, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> No


Not technically correct; it is ready to accept boats.


----------



## Plumdaff (Dec 20, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I am less worried about food, even if people's favourite foods are not there there will be food in the supermarkets and people will just have to adjust.
> 
> My concern is medicines. I (and many others) need specific medicines.



My sister's fiance works for one of the big shipping delivery firms and over the weekend the government has asked them to free up much of their air freight capacity at some airports for NHS use. I mean we're fucked, but they have thought about getting medication in.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 20, 2020)

TopCat said:


> "The government has already accepted that the absence of sanitary facilities in Kent for lorry drivers is an issue with plans to put in Portaloos for Brexit. These plans may now need to be brought forward.


Lucrative if you're on Grant Shapps's pub quiz team or if you do Dominic Raab's manicure.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 20, 2020)

Plumdaff said:


> My sister's fiance works for one of the big shipping delivery firms and over the weekend the government has asked them to free up much of their air freight capacity at some airports for NHS use. I mean we're fucked, but they have thought about getting medication in.


Good to know, thanks.


----------



## Indeliblelink (Dec 20, 2020)

Is the Newhaven (in Tier 2) Ferry to Dieppe still running?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 20, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> More panic buying ensues. Fucking hell.


  The queue around the local M&S today reminded  me of Prague in1988.but with more pesto and focaccia


----------



## Supine (Dec 20, 2020)

Indeliblelink said:


> Is the Newhaven (in Tier 2) Ferry to Dieppe still running?



no


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

In summary...


----------



## quimcunx (Dec 21, 2020)

It's like brexit come early!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

We can cope


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

would it be traitorous to suggest this is an absolute blinder of a move on the part of the EU?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## Flavour (Dec 21, 2020)

Would the EU even allow another extension to the transition period just 10 days before it's due to end? I can't see it happening. Tories won't dare ask for one and the EU would probably turn down any such request


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Would the EU even allow another extension to the transition period just 10 days before it's due to end? I can't see it happening. Tories won't dare ask for one and the EU would probably turn down any such request


Either an extension or a deal. They won’t just let the clock run down it’s too important and both sides want to sort it out.


----------



## grit (Dec 21, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Would the EU even allow another extension to the transition period just 10 days before it's due to end? I can't see it happening. Tories won't dare ask for one and the EU would probably turn down any such request



I think there could be a reluctance for an extension but unfortunately it will probably be granted if it’s requested. The continued  uncertainty sometimes feels like it would be comparable to a no deal.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

remembering the greatest hits


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

The petrol in the petrol station, that doesn’t come vía France does it?


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> The petrol in the petrol station, that doesn’t come vía France does it?



No not at all. We can basically be self-sufficient in petrol with a bit of rejigging, although have been importing more diesel in recent years. Imports/exports are via specialised ports - Teeside, Avonmouth etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> would it be traitorous to suggest this is an absolute blinder of a move on the part of the EU?



It's an act of violence that will hurt those furthest from power the hardest. It makes me, for the first time, genuinely glad we're leaving the EU.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's an act of violence that will hurt those furthest from power the hardest. It makes me, for the first time, genuinely glad we're leaving the EU.



It's not the EU that's done this; it's individual states.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's an act of violence that will hurt those furthest from power the hardest. It makes me, for the first time, genuinely glad we're leaving the EU.


Do you mean the 48 hour blockade? It is definitely not nice but don’t know if it’s any more malevolent than a whole string of decisions made by our own government, including their choice not to extend the negotiations deadline once we all knew there was a pandemic on.


----------



## grit (Dec 21, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> It's not the EU that's done this; it's individual states.



Indeed, I genuinely believe that fear of the new virus strain is the main driver behind it. Our cases in Ireland are jumping up at an alarming rate.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 21, 2020)

Perhaps worth pointing out it's not only European countries banning/restricting arrivals from the UK:



> Iran’s health ministry has ordered flights from Britain suspended for two weeks, the state news agency IRNA reported. Israel said it was barring entry to foreign citizens travelling from Britain, Denmark and South Africa. Kuwait has added Britain to a list of “high-risk” nations and banned flights. El Salvador’s president, Nayib Bukele, said on Twitter that anyone who had been in Britain or South Africa in the past 30 days will not be allowed to enter the country.
> 
> Colombia is suspending flights to and from the UK starting Monday and Chile has introduced mandatory two-week quarantine for anyone who visited the UK in the last fortnight.
> 
> Turkey and Morocco have announced they will be suspending air travel from the UK, while the official Saudi Press Agency reports Saudi Arabia is also suspending international flights for one week. Canada has halted flights from the UK for 72 hours.



Here.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

We don't get all our food via Iran though.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> We don't get all our food via Iran though.



Of course not, but the point is that there's a genuine emergency to which European states - who after all are in closest contact with the UK and therefore most at risk - are responding, not (just) some dastardly negotiating ploy by 'the EU.'


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> We don't get all our food via Iran though.



I don't remember anyone here complaining about this last month:









						Coronavirus: Hauliers included in Denmark restrictions
					

Rules for travel from Denmark were tightened after a coronavirus strain spread from mink to humans.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> I don't remember anyone here complaining about this last month:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They had all those tasty mink to eat though.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> would it be traitorous to suggest this is an absolute blinder of a move on the part of the EU?


Yes


----------



## hipipol (Dec 21, 2020)

OOps, wrong rant.......


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Will the lorries waiting for the borders to open back up to London?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Will the lorries waiting for the borders to open back up to London?


The border at Clacket Lane, I reckon, if you're looking for a good raiding point.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Will the lorries waiting for the borders to open back up to London?


You'd need an army of banksmen to oversee that mass reversal


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

BBC are reporting 48 hrs ban at least...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The border at Clacket Lane, I reckon, if you're looking for a good raiding point.


Problem with robbing lorries like that is they stop sending more.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You'd need an army of banksmen to oversee that mass reversal


Furlough army.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Problem with robbing lorries like that is they stop sending more.


Yeh if you rob them down eg tooting broadway

But if you tried in Kent how will they stop sending more (assuming border closure not permanent)


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Problem with robbing lorries like that is they stop sending more.


They have already.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh if you rob them down eg tooting broadway
> 
> But if you tried in Kent how will they stop sending more (assuming border closure not permanent)


Very good point. I now have a food plan B.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> BBC are reporting 48 hrs ban at least...


Somebody mentioned that 48hrs is the maximum they can do an emergency measure, has to be reviewed every 48hrs, so very possible it’ll be extended rather than just repealed.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Somebody mentioned that 48hrs is the maximum they can do an emergency measure, has to be reviewed every 48hrs, so very possible it’ll be extended rather than just repealed.


How will they remove it when covid 19 in the UK will be more rampant here in 48 hrs than now?


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Somebody mentioned that 48hrs is the maximum they can do an emergency measure, has to be reviewed every 48hrs, so very possible it’ll be extended rather than just repealed.


They only need to extend it until the 31st when the striking French fishermen will take over


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Man on the radio saying everyone stay calm, no need to go panic shopping


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Man on the radio saying everyone stay calm, no need to go panic shopping



Oh God thats going to set everyone off.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Man on the radio saying everyone stay calm, no need to go panic shopping


I want to go Lidl but am scared.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Oh God thats going to set everyone off.


I bet it was a pre recording and that the man was at the front door of Waitrose with two trollys.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 21, 2020)

It's great timing, kicked out a few days before the big flounce.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How will they remove it when covid 19 in the UK will be more rampant here in 48 hrs than now?


Rather tragically, the best hope for us on the plague boat is that the new variant crops up all over the EU member states in the next 48 hours.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Rather tragically, the best hope for us on the plague boat is that the new variant crops up all over the EU member states in the next 48 hours.


Well it will. So this will drag on for a bit. Then?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it will. So this will drag on for a bit. Then?


No reason to shut borders...until the Brexit shitshow in 10 days time.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well it will. So this will drag on for a bit. Then?


If it’s already all over France they’ll have less of a reason to continue to blocade us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> If it’s already all over France they’ll have less of a reason to continue to blocade us.


They'll splutter into their covfefe


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> If it’s already all over France they’ll have less of a reason to continue to blocade us.


Their political class hate us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Their political class hate us.


They long to get their hands on our aristos


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They long to get their hands on our aristos


I would forgive the French for everything, even vote to join the Euro if they would, in exchange, invade briefly, kill all the Aristo's and their vaguest of relatives and then leave.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I would forgive the French for everything, even vote to join the Euro if they would, in exchange, invade briefly, kill all the Aristo's and their vaguest of relatives and then leave.


I think we could all rally under that banner


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

#RatsAndRainwater


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> #RatsAndRainwater
> 
> View attachment 244544


Fruit and salad shortages in December.  This will not crush us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> #RatsAndRainwater
> 
> View attachment 244544


To be fair Sainsbury's sport empty shelves at the best of times


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Guardian reports millions of quid worth of lobster wont be able to cross to feed the French and Spanish. 
Will they get diverted to our local markets?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

That's the spirit chaps...Blitz, Dunkirk...etc...


----------



## andysays (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I would forgive the French for everything, even vote to join the Euro if they would, in exchange, invade briefly, kill all the Aristo's and their vaguest of relatives and then leave.


I hope you're not suggesting that British workers aren't sufficiently well trained to be able to kill all the aristos and we have to outsource that job as well...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's the spirit chaps...Blitz, Dunkirk...etc...


Not the Blitz please. Dunkirk was pretty grim too.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

andysays said:


> I hope you're not suggesting that British workers aren't sufficiently well trained to be able to kill all the aristos and we have to outsource that job as well...


The British just dont want these jobs.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

"_Food special"; _the dark irony...


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> #RatsAndRainwater
> 
> View attachment 244544


This is weirdly specific. What about sprouts?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is weirdly specific. What about sprouts?


The French have reportedly shut the Normandy custard factories too.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The French have reportedly shut the Normandy custard factories too.


Boom time for the lemon fields of Dunstable tho.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I want to go Lidl but am scared.


Be Strong , TopCat, be strong.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

From let's stride out there onto the global stage and do loads of trade to oh shit everyone start growing yr own food, quite a pivot from brexitland. 
...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> From let's stride out there onto the global stage and do loads of trade to oh shit everyone start growing yr own food, quite a pivot from brexitland.
> View attachment 244555...View attachment 244556


We can sell ourselves to china


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> From let's stride out there onto the global stage and do loads of trade to oh shit everyone start growing yr own food, quite a pivot from brexitland.
> View attachment 244555...View attachment 244556


Its disturbing to look at that mad cunt and read his stopped clock guff.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> From let's stride out there onto the global stage and do loads of trade to oh shit everyone start growing yr own food, quite a pivot from brexitland.
> View attachment 244555...View attachment 244556



It will take another 6-9 months to grow food from this point.

What do we do until then? Can we eat the neighbours now because mine look very unappetising and old.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> It will take another 6-9 months to grow food from this point.
> 
> What do we do until then? Can we eat the neighbours now because mine look very unappetising and old.


My neighbours are really skinny.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

We are still European.  The Greek experience shows us our European brothers and sisters would not leave us hungry in winter just because of politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Guardian reports millions of quid worth of lobster wont be able to cross to feed the French and Spanish.
> Will they get diverted to our local markets?


Handed out to the homeless no doubt


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We can sell ourselves to china


Then lease ourselves back.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Handed out to the homeless no doubt


No doubt.


----------



## tommers (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> My neighbours are really skinny.



Good. Easily overpowered.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> We are still European.  The Greek experience shows us our European brothers and sisters would not leave us hungry in winter just because of politics.



This is a joke right?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

splonkydoo said:


> This is a joke right?


Jokes are never funny when they have to be explained


----------



## hegley (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Guardian reports millions of quid worth of lobster wont be able to cross to feed the French and Spanish.
> Will they get diverted to our local markets?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

hegley said:


>



Forget the traffic hell, sell them here.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

It’s a bit amazing to me how many of these sort of people there seem to be, willing to push on regardless and apparently unconcerned about scurvy.

the new world may be significantly shitter than the old world but it’s New!


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Cunts would sooner dump them (languestine) in a verge than let us have them.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

I better have a bath and go panic buying.


----------



## Chz (Dec 21, 2020)

Seafood for Christmas simply isn't a British thing. They'll really struggle to offload that lot.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Cunts would sooner dump them (languestine) in a verge than let us have them.


Which cunts the scottish Fishermen? I thought the fishermen were the goodies


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Jokes are never funny when they have to be explained



Stop stealing my hastily posted lines you prigg


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Chz said:


> Seafood for Christmas simply isn't a British thing. They'll really struggle to offload that lot.


Tinned cat food is going to be quality next year.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Baron Moore of Etchingham has a plan. Who wants to eat green things anyway.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 21, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> It will take another 6-9 months to grow food from this point.
> 
> What do we do until then? Can we eat the neighbours now because mine look very unappetising and old.



eat lamb boiled in lorry driver’s piss.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 21, 2020)

Chz said:


> Seafood for Christmas simply isn't a British thing. They'll really struggle to offload that lot.


Seeing how so many have issues with just cooking a turkey, changing it to lobster, langoustine or shellfish will be a disaster?


I'd be more than happy though


----------



## teuchter (Dec 21, 2020)

If only we had some kind of system where goods didn't travel long distance in individual units each accompanied by a driver. Maybe some kind of system where you make big line of those units, 20 or 30 of them at a time, and then a machine at the front with just one driver that pulls them all. And it would be designed such that the machine could be easily swapped at places like borders. So you could move large quantities of stuff with hardly any need for plague carrying humans to cross borders at all. You could invent this system, say, 200 years ago, and then not abandon most investment in its infrastructure, say, about 40 years ago. You could build a Channel Tunnel perfectly capable of carrying this system, and then not spend the past 30 years failing to invest in making efficient use of it.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 21, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> eat lamb boiled in lorry driver’s piss.


Must have missed that on Nigella's show


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> If only we had some kind of system where goods didn't travel long distance in individual units each accompanied by a driver. Maybe some kind of system where you make big line of those units, 20 or 30 of them at a time, and then a machine at the front with just one driver that pulls them all. And it would be designed such that the machine could be easily swapped at places like borders. So you could move large quantities of stuff with hardly any need for plague carrying humans to cross borders at all. You could invent this system, say, 200 years ago, and then not abandon most investment in its infrastructure, say, about 40 years ago. You could build a Channel Tunnel perfectly capable of carrying this system, and then not spend the past 30 years failing to invest in making efficient use of it.



Sounds dangerously commie to me, why do you hate Britain?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 21, 2020)

We're the stupidest people in the whole fucking world. Even Americans would laugh at us if they knew who we were.


----------



## tommers (Dec 21, 2020)

mauvais said:


> We're the stupidest people in the whole fucking world. Even Americans would laugh at us if they knew who we were.



Humanity is stupid, not just us. It's that really bad type of stupid as well, where we think we're really clever.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 21, 2020)

tommers said:


> Humanity is stupid, not just us. It's that really bad type of stupid as well, where we think we're really clever.


Don't get me wrong, humanity as a whole usually has the collective intelligence of fog, but there's no getting away from it: we let's-face-it-the-English people are thick as an abandoned truck of mince. A nation that doesn't believe in consequences.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Baron Moore of Etchingham has a plan. Who wants to eat green things anyway.
> View attachment 244562



Oh my god.    Spare us these old twats ranting on about how things used to be in the 'good old days.'

On which note, time to wheel this one out again:


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

tommers said:


> Humanity is stupid, not just us. It's that really bad type of stupid as well, where we think we're really clever.


Not everyone has a government made up of stupid people who are focussed singlemindedly on appeasing the stupidest people in the country though.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Chz said:


> Seafood for Christmas simply isn't a British thing. They'll really struggle to offload that lot.


I know loads that have to suffer a frozen lobster Christmas starter.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

quiet guy said:


> Seeing how so many have issues with just cooking a turkey, changing it to lobster, langoustine or shellfish will be a disaster?
> 
> 
> I'd be more than happy though


You are the wrong sort of fish eater apparently.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I know loads that have to suffer a frozen lobster Christmas starter.



Prawn cocktail


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

teuchter said:


> If only we had some kind of system where goods didn't travel long distance in individual units each accompanied by a driver. Maybe some kind of system where you make big line of those units, 20 or 30 of them at a time, and then a machine at the front with just one driver that pulls them all. And it would be designed such that the machine could be easily swapped at places like borders. So you could move large quantities of stuff with hardly any need for plague carrying humans to cross borders at all. You could invent this system, say, 200 years ago, and then not abandon most investment in its infrastructure, say, about 40 years ago. You could build a Channel Tunnel perfectly capable of carrying this system, and then not spend the past 30 years failing to invest in making efficient use of it.



My plan to build a canal under the English Channel is still ready to go. In fact, it would be a lot easier now that there's a tunnel that could be partially flooded with readily available seawater. The first barges could be leaving in a matter of days. And arriving in a matter of weeks.


----------



## andysays (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Tinned cat food is going to be quality next year.


By about March that'll be what we're all reduced to eating


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> My plan to build a canal under the English Channel is still ready to go. In fact, it would be a lot easier now that there's a tunnel that could be partially flooded with readily available seawater. The first barges could be leaving in a matter of days. And arriving in a matter of weeks.


Grayling to secure the barges?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> Which cunts the scottish Fishermen? I thought the fishermen were the goodies


The fish brokers. They screw the fisher people and sell the fish abroad cos profits.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 21, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> My plan to build a canal under the English Channel is still ready to go. In fact, it would be a lot easier now that there's a tunnel that could be partially flooded with readily available seawater. The first barges could be leaving in a matter of days. And arriving in a matter of weeks.


FFS. How many more horses have to die before you'll give up on the Chaqueduct?

I don't even _like _horses, I just think it's unnecessarily cruel to send them down there knowing full well that they'll be hit by a train.


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The fish brokers. They screw the fisher people and sell the fish abroad cos profits.


This is just silly. nobody knows what to do with a lobster round here it doesn’t even look like food.
 Have you been to Lidl yet.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

mauvais said:


> FFS. How many more horses have to die before you'll give up on the Chaqueduct?
> 
> I don't even _like _horses, I just think it's unnecessarily cruel to send them down there knowing full well that they'll be hit by a train.



The French love a good horse, tastes great with a bit of garlic.



bimble said:


> This is just silly. nobody knows what to do with a lobster round here it doesn’t even look like food.
> Have you been to Lidl yet.



If its not a Cod, Whelk or Eel the British don't want to know about it. Especially if its not got a blue passport.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

mauvais said:


> FFS. How many more horses have to die before you'll give up on the Chaqueduct?
> 
> I don't even _like _horses, I just think it's unnecessarily cruel to send them down there knowing full well that they'll be hit by a train.



We don't need horses. The barges will be powered by cutting edge yak treadmill technology.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is just silly. nobody knows what to do with a lobster round here it doesn’t even look like food.
> Have you been to Lidl yet.


I know what to do with a lobster. 

I am scared of reports of panic buying. Waitrose in Beckenham has hundreds queuing. Remainers only signs have not diminished the numbers. 

Anyway I am just finishing my coffee and will get off my arse soon.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 21, 2020)

All these fools giving out about a lack of winter veg have obviously never savoured the taste snails. Snails, and locally foraged mushrooms, with a lash of beef drippings on top #levelingup


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The French love a good horse, tastes great with a bit of garlic.
> 
> 
> 
> If its not a Cod, Whelk or Eel the British don't want to know about it. Especially if its not got a blue passport.


This is a big lie.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This is a big lie.



Your right, any passport is acceptable as long as the fish has enough bread and looks good in a suit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The French love a good horse, tastes great with a bit of garlic.


better with horseradish


----------



## Chz (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I know loads that have to suffer a frozen lobster Christmas starter.


I was thinking in relation to the times I've been with family in France. Mussels, oysters, scallops, prawns and crab. Not so much the lobsters.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 21, 2020)

Chz said:


> I was thinking in relation to the times I've been with family in France. Mussels, oysters, scallops, prawns and crab. Not so much the lobsters.


Roast Turbot would go well.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Roast Turbot would go well.


as long as kippers are available i'd be happy


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 21, 2020)

Big queues outside Waitrose when I drove past it this morning . I went to Aldi and, while it was a bit busier than usual, no-one appeared to be panic buying and I was in and out in 10 mins. The Waitrose queue didn’t seem to have moved one jot as I went past on the way home.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> as long as kippers are available i'd be happy


kippers will shortly be compulsory.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> kippers will shortly be compulsory.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 21, 2020)

Splendid isolation , at last!


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

Whats this then, everyone being assembled Just in case magically a deal is reached in the final heroic days ?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 21, 2020)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 244602
> 
> View attachment 244603


----------



## bimble (Dec 21, 2020)

I’m excited for today’s press conference, whether it’ll be mainly brexit themed or only about the plague or both.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

bimble said:


> I’m excited for today’s press conference, whether it’ll be mainly brexit themed or only about the plague or both.


maybe it will be a brexit themed plague pit of a conference


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe it will be a brexit themed plague pit of a conference


If a revolver is involved it might be one of the few things capable of cheering the nation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> If a revolver is involved it might be one of the few things capable of cheering the nation.



something like this, now harry is somewhat estranged from the other members of the foul windsor clan


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 244611
> something like this, now harry is somewhat estranged from the other members of the foul windsor clan


I'm not in favour of pay-per-view, but I would make an exception.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

and now, Weather warnings for heavy rain/flooding for areas including the lorry parks of Kent & the SE...


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2020)

Just passed over us in Cornwall headed east now. Not as much of a deluge as yesterday I have to say.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 21, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Just passed over us in Cornwall headed east now. Not as much of a deluge as yesterday I have to say.


It's for Wednesday & Thursday.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> and now, Weather warnings for heavy rain/flooding for areas including the lorry parks of Kent & the SE...
> 
> View attachment 244618



'Yellow rain' presumably a reference to the millions of gallons of piss being flung from the cab windows of HGVs


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's for Wednesday & Thursday.


ah 

and waiting for the yellow snow later on then


----------



## two sheds (Dec 21, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It's for Wednesday & Thursday.



Thursday looks nice here though


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 21, 2020)

Piss wet in Bristol right now. There’ll be none left by the time it gets to Kent.


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 21, 2020)

One thing I don't understand about the Brexit negotiations is whatever has happened to the disagreements about the "Level Playing Field".   Is that all agreed now?  Has the UK effectively agreed to abide by EU regulations foreever.  If so why are the Brexiteers not a teeny bit upset about this.  I thought that not following EU regulations was one of the motivations for Brexit. Why has it gone so quite on the Level Playing Field?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 21, 2020)

maybe reality settling in one would like to hope but it has not stopped them until now


----------



## weltweit (Dec 21, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> One thing I don't understand about the Brexit negotiations is whatever has happened to the disagreements about the "Level Playing Field".   Is that all agreed now?  Has the UK effectively agreed to abide by EU regulations foreever.  If so why are the Brexiteers not a teeny bit upset about this.  I thought that not following EU regulations was one of the motivations for Brexit. Why has it gone so quite on the Level Playing Field?


I think the agreement on level playing field is more like, if the UK starts to degrade workers pay and rights then the EU does reserve the right to raise tariffs on those or other items to level the playing field. My understanding was that up till recently UK didn't agree with EU's right to raise tariffs in that case.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 21, 2020)

.


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 21, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I think the agreement on level playing field is more like, if the UK starts to degrade workers pay and rights then the EU does reserve the right to raise tariffs on those or other items to level the playing field. My understanding was that up till recently UK didn't agree with EU's right to raise tariffs in that case.



It would be extremely interesting to hear the detail of that aspect of the agreement.  When will it be discussed?  What specific rights and pay levels of British workers are being protected?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 21, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> It would be extremely interesting to hear the detail of that aspect of the agreement.  When will it be discussed?  What specific rights and pay levels of British workers are being protected?


We won't know fully until an agreement is reached and published, but it's likely to be the same range of social rules as the UK is bound by now, with the exception of free movement of people. So, the immediate thing will be the the status quo and an agreement not to lower standards. The difference will be that the sanction for breaking the rules is currently a fine, and that will change to having tariffs imposed. There may also be additional rules about consulting trade unions for certain types of legislation, because the EU has to do that under its own rules.


----------



## tommers (Dec 21, 2020)

Of course this isn't about "protecting workers' rights" but stopping companies being able to compete unfairly by lowering wages & conditions.


----------



## toblerone3 (Dec 22, 2020)

Isn't it more than just writing across the status quo. Isnt "the level playing field" also a dynamic thing that in the sense that it means that Britain even outside the EU will have to following EU regulation as it changes if it wishes to avoid the imposition of tariffs.  In essence Britain by leaving the EU would go from a "rule maker" to a "rule taker".


----------



## weltweit (Dec 22, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Isn't it more than just writing across the status quo. Isnt "the level playing field" also a dynamic thing that in the sense that it means that Britain even outside the EU will have to following EU regulation as it changes if it wishes to avoid the imposition of tariffs.  In essence Britain by leaving the EU would go from a "rule maker" to a "rule taker".


It is quite fair that if we want to supply goods into the EU, they have to comply with EU standards. For example the CE mark. Japanese and American companies have to comply with this as we will have to also.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 22, 2020)

toblerone3 said:


> Isn't it more than just writing across the status quo. Isnt "the level playing field" also a dynamic thing that in the sense that it means that Britain even outside the EU will have to following EU regulation as it changes if it wishes to avoid the imposition of tariffs.  In essence Britain by leaving the EU would go from a "rule maker" to a "rule taker".


Yes in all likelihood, but that's additional, which is why I said "the immediate thing".


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

I think there will be a deal, 'we' have moved from demanding 60% of the fish to 35% of the fish. The EU was demanding 25% of the fish.
If this is actually about fish at all, then it sounds like the last bit of the dance.
The alternative is that it wasn't really about fish, was about avoiding having to define a brexit in any concrete form, which was always going to mean compromise and specifics, after promising people that we would have sunlit uplands and rule the waves.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 22, 2020)

bimble said:


> I think there will be a deal, 'we' have moved from demanding 60% of the fish to 35% of the fish. The EU was demanding 25% of the fish.
> If this is actually about fish at all, then it sounds like the last bit of the dance.
> The alternative is that it wasn't really about fish, was about avoiding having to define a brexit in any concrete form, which was always going to mean compromise and specifics, after promising people that we would have sunlit uplands and rule the waves.



I think there's a big element of the latter.  Every time Brexit has been defined in a 'concrete form,' even unrealistically, those most committed to it have thrown their toys out of the pram.  Think how many variants of it have foundered on that rock, ranging from EEA membership (which of course May took off the table in 2016), May's deal, the 'Malthouse Compromise,' and so on - most of them torpedoed by hardliners looking for a fantasy 'perfect' Brexit.  They'll turn on Johnson too if a deal is done in the next few days - the ERG are already signalling this - and if it isn't they'll do their usual thing of denying any responsibility and arguing that Brexit just wasn't done properly.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

exactly. if there is no deal that'll be why, isnt it.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

King Charles the Second granted Bruges fishermen up to 50 boats the right to fish in UK waters in perpetuity.
Will that be a charter broken in limited and specific ways?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> King Charles the Second granted Bruges fishermen up to 50 boats the right to fish in UK waters in perpetuity.
> Will that be a charter broken in limited and specific ways?


I bet he didn't have to worry about the enforcement method for the level playing field


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> King Charles the Second granted Bruges fishermen up to 50 boats the right to fish in UK waters in perpetuity.
> Will that be a charter broken in limited and specific ways?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> King Charles the Second granted Bruges fishermen up to 50 boats the right to fish in UK waters in perpetuity.
> Will that be a charter broken in limited and specific ways?


please to say how many fishermen from Bruges there are


----------



## magneze (Dec 22, 2020)

76


----------



## Raheem (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> please to say how many fishermen from Bruges there are


They've got canals.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

Raheem said:


> They've got canals.


And they sail up and down them trawling nets

Doesn't really seem sporting


----------



## andysays (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> King Charles the Second granted Bruges fishermen up to 50 boats the right to fish in UK waters in perpetuity.
> Will that be a charter broken in limited and specific ways?


You're not really suggesting that the 21st century UK should be bound by what some bloke with a crown  and a funny wig said back in the the 17th century, are you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> You're not really suggesting that the 21st century UK should be bound by what some bloke with a crown  and a funny wig said back in the the 17th century, are you?


Wait wait wait

Bruges is no longer a port tho it has canals

I'd like philosophical to tell us how many Bruges fishermen there are these days. I would not be surprised if the number desirous of or able to fish British waters was rather below 50


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

For those that know it, that's Detling. 

Those 170 lorries must be fucking big ones.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> please to say how many fishermen from Bruges there are



Five hundred million.
I imagine.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

'kinnel...


----------



## 2hats (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 244754
> For those that know it, that's Detling.
> 
> Those 170 lorries must be fucking big ones.


One 'Standard Michael Green Lorry' = 10 actual lorries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Five hundred million.
> I imagine.


499,999,950 will be pissed off then


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

The Belgian 'hero' who invaded UK fishing waters
					

The story of Victor Depaepe, who tested fishing rights in UK waters granted by King Charles II.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The Belgian 'hero' who invaded UK fishing waters
> 
> 
> The story of Victor Depaepe, who tested fishing rights in UK waters granted by King Charles II.
> ...



"When a king [or queen] makes a law, only another king [or queen] can change it, and so up until now there's been nothing to say that this charter isn't valid any more." 

A political principle we should certainly still be following today, wouldn't you agree, philosophical?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 22, 2020)

Thatcher would be incandescent with fury if she could see her bastard kids performance over the past few years


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 22, 2020)

Lolz


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> "When a king [or queen] makes a law, only another king [or queen] can change it, and so up until now there's been nothing to say that this charter isn't valid any more."
> 
> A political principle we should certainly still be following today, wouldn't you agree, philosophical?


 Dunno about that.
Maybe the European Royals and the British Royals should have a tear up in the Eurotunnel car park to settle matters.
Jousting or something. 
Televised.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 22, 2020)

Welcome to Gruinard should be  the new sign for arrivals in Dover but I have no photoshop skillz


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

Well, this is really helpful...


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is really helpful...
> 
> View attachment 244779


It’s exactly that kind of thing that notes makes me glad we’re leaving even though I voted remain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 22, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Thatcher would be incandescent with fury if she could see her bastard kids performance over the past few years



She should've thought of that before she crippled the political system to the point where a 200lb slab of plankton in Michael Fabricant's spare wig could become prime minister in the first place.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Thatcher would be incandescent with fury if she could see her bastard kids performance over the past few years


some resemblance there, alright


----------



## Raheem (Dec 22, 2020)

She's come dressed as a Magic Eye poster


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 22, 2020)

not quite for this thread, but couldn't think where else to put it.

apparently brexiter nigel lawson is having to sell his home in france and move back to the UK, as he can't get residency there unless he becomes a full tax resident in france.

more here 

how sad...


----------



## tommers (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is really helpful...
> 
> View attachment 244779


Jesus. I can hear the ranting from here. Spectacularly stupid.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not quite for this thread, but couldn't think where else to put it.
> 
> apparently brexiter nigel lawson is having to sell his home in france and move back to the UK, as he can't get residency there unless he becomes a full tax resident in france.
> 
> ...


suggest that the cunt buys somewhere back here that lies below sea level.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not quite for this thread, but couldn't think where else to put it.
> 
> apparently brexiter nigel lawson is having to sell his home in france and move back to the UK, as he can't get residency there unless he becomes a full tax resident in france.
> 
> ...


Curiously in all my planning to live in France, "tax-residency" was never something I had to consider ... worrying about being taxed in both countries was something one had to avoid ...

Of course that sort of shit was why they were trying to destroy the EU ...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> suggest that the cunt buys somewhere back here that lies below sea level.



or somewhere overlooking a lorry park in kent?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Curiously in all my planning to live in France, "tax-residency" was never something I had to consider ... worrying about being taxed in both countries was something one had to avoid ...
> 
> Of course that sort of shit was why they were trying to destroy the EU ...


Go for a halfway house and move to the channel Islands where the tax regime may be to your liking


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

Verhofstadt has a point in my view.
If only telling brexit voters that the usual outcome of leaving somewhere means a border.
Including the conundrum of leaving somewhere you're joined to by land.
Brexit voters say they knew this anyway when saying they knew what they were voting for.
They are keeping their planned practical solutions a bit of a secret. Perhaps they can re visit what they 'knew' just before they voted.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Verhofstadt has a point in my view.
> If only telling brexit voters that the usual outcome of leaving somewhere means a border.
> Including the conundrum of leaving somewhere you're joined to by land.
> Brexit voters say they knew this anyway when saying they knew what they were voting for.
> They are keeping their planned practical solutions a bit of a secret. Perhaps they can re visit what they 'knew' just before they voted.


Of course he has _a point, _but what a cuntish tweet to post now; fucking sociopath.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 22, 2020)

No one could have ever anticipated any kind of problem whatsoever at the dover bottleneck ever at all . Nope no chance there was ever going to be any kind of need for basic facilities like bogs and support fir trapped  or delayed drivers. Nope, totally out of the blue. We could not have anticipated this in 2016


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Go for a halfway house and move to the channel Islands where the tax regime may be to your liking


Don't you have to be a millionaire to live there ?


----------



## prunus (Dec 22, 2020)

Raheem said:


> She's come dressed as a Magic Eye poster



Yes if you squint at that picture just right you can see a pair of cunts.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

This footage of Kent from above today is just


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Don't you have to be a millionaire to live there ?


Mostly


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is really helpful...
> 
> View attachment 244779



Nah fuck it, this is what happens when you fuck about and demand that your special and your borders and sovereignty are inviolable then piss about until the week before New year to sort access out.

It's shit but if we're playing the take back control card then the EU is going to put the brakes on those borders if we don't.

It's going to be a really shit few weeks but this is the consequence of literally everything that's happened last 4 years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> She should've thought of that before she crippled the political system to the point where a 200lb slab of plankton in Michael Fabricant's spare wig could become prime minister in the first place.


Plankton would do a better job


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s exactly that kind of thing that notes makes me glad we’re leaving even though I voted remain.


Why, because he did a mean tweet?


----------



## SheilaNaGig (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 'kinnel...





There’s also this









						UK: Long Lines Of Lorries On M20 Motorway As France Shuts Borders 2
					

Lorry drivers in the UK made a long line on the M20 motorway due to a ban on freight to France.  The French government closed its borders to all travelers from the UK from midnight on Monday, December 21 over fears of a new variant of the coronavirus which could be up to 70% more transmissible...




					www.newsflare.com
				




It’s a two minute clip of the queue on the M20.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> not quite for this thread, but couldn't think where else to put it.
> 
> apparently brexiter nigel lawson is having to sell his home in france and move back to the UK, as he can't get residency there unless he becomes a full tax resident in france.
> 
> ...


Why isn't he dead yet?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 22, 2020)

D'ya know what would make my Christmas? Some of those lorry drivers finding out that Nigel Farage lives in the village of Downe in Kent and basically blockading the roads in and out of there for a while. Petty maybe but it would make my day, especially a few parked up right outside his gaff.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> D'ya know what would make my Christmas? Some of those lorry drivers finding out that Nigel Farage lives in the village of Downe in Kent and basically blockading the roads in and out of there for a while. Petty maybe but it would make my day, especially a few parked up right outside his gaff.
> 
> View attachment 244812



Someone should tell them it's where to find the bog


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Someone should tell them it's where to find the bog



I really wish more lorry drivers were on Twitter...we could make this happen, quickly...


----------



## andysays (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Dunno about that.
> Maybe the European Royals and the British Royals should have a tear up in the Eurotunnel car park to settle matters.
> Jousting or something.
> Televised.


So even 17th century norms are too advanced for you, and you'd prefer international affairs were settled according to medieval methods.

Splendid stuff...


----------



## mauvais (Dec 22, 2020)

I'd prefer a lot of this to be settled with medieval methods to be quite honest, whether that's executions or a Norman invasion.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Don't you have to be a millionaire to live there ?





Pickman's model said:


> Mostly



It's certainly complicated.  I did vaguely toy with the idea of going to one of the channel islands as a seasonal bus driver a few years back and it all sounded kinda complicated then, and that you had something like a 'temporary guest worker' status



Rutita1 said:


> D'ya know what would make my Christmas? Some of those lorry drivers finding out that Nigel Farage lives in the village of Downe in Kent and basically blockading the roads in and out of there for a while. Petty maybe but it would make my day, especially a few parked up right outside his gaff.



sadly, Downe is right at the other end of Kent, south of Bromley (not sure if it isn't administratively in Bromley Borough / Greater London)


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Nah fuck it, this is what happens when you fuck about and demand that your special and your borders and sovereignty are inviolable then piss about until the week before New year to sort access out.
> 
> It's shit but if we're playing the take back control card then the EU is going to put the brakes on those borders if we don't.
> 
> It's going to be a really shit few weeks but this is the consequence of literally everything that's happened last 4 years.


I didn't realise the 'rona had been plotting this for 4 years, citation pls for uni dropouts


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> I didn't realise the 'rona had been plotting this for 4 years, citation pls for uni dropouts



I never went to uni at all so I don't know what this citation stuff is mate.

This is just a weeks early brexit and the EU countries have absolutely no skin in playing nice with us or patience with us after we've fucked around so long.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> sadly, Downe is right at the other end of Kent, south of Bromley (not sure if it isn't administratively in Bromley Borough / Greater London)



I know Downe, I know where Nige drinks...I could make this happen...


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Dec 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I never went to uni at all so I don't know what this citation stuff is mate.
> 
> This is just a weeks early brexit and the EU countries have absolutely no skin in playing nice with us or patience with us after we've fucked around so long.


Sure, if only we had voted remain then freight, new variant of virus and all and sundry can just continue doing a wee merry dance  all over the world unhindered. As a leave voter may I be the first to offer my sincere apologies for this new development.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Sure, if only we had voted remain then freight, new variant of virus and all and sundry can just continue doing a wee merry dance  all over the world unhindered. As a leave voter may I be the first to offer my sincere apologies for this new development.



That's nice of you, who says leave and remain voters can't be civil.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

Like it or not part of the reason we're in this situation is because the government has had far to relaxed an approach to borders and testing incoming and outgoing people since the start which is nothing but ironic and deeply pathetic considering the rhetoric it puts into kicking out the poor and preventing or demonising poor immigrants, legal or illegal.

Plus you know, Boris and his red hot negotiating strategy of erm... Pissing everyone off.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

bimble said:


> Why, because he did a mean tweet?


It reveals a lot about the contempt that the EU has for ordinary people.  They’d rather people suffer than allow any stepping out of line.  Verhofstadt is actually _pleased_ this is happening. I don’t want people like that being my line of defence against anything.  It’s worse than having nothing.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

andysays said:


> So even 17th century norms are too advanced for you, and you'd prefer international affairs were settled according to medieval methods.
> 
> Splendid stuff...



Did I say it was a preference?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 22, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I know Downe, I know where Nige drinks...I could make this happen...



but will he have buggered off to his second home for xmas?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Did I say it was a preference?


You didn't have to, you made your view quite clear


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 22, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> but will he have buggered off to his second home for xmas?


Maybe...But the village will remember and half of them are sick of him already...he's barred from one pub


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 22, 2020)

Apparently Heathrow is absolutely jammers right now with crowds of people, 3 flights lined up for Belfast. Thank you Arlene Foster, DUP, UUP, Alliance party, and stupid people everywhere.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 22, 2020)

The fact there isn't an all-island health policy in this country is insane, and down to complete unionist pig-headedness. I wonder how many people of those flights will be travelling down south, and using public transport links to do so


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It reveals a lot about the contempt that the EU has for ordinary people.  They’d rather people suffer than allow any stepping out of line.  Verhofstadt is actually _pleased_ this is happening. I don’t want people like that being my line of defence against anything.  It’s worse than having nothing.


Seems a bit of an overreaction.
Verhofstadt is one Belgian MEP. He's not "the EU". The UK did not rely on representation by him when it was part of the EU, it was represented by all the UK MEPs.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You didn't have to, you made your view quite clear



Bollocks did I.
I used the word 'maybe' if you care to look.


----------



## gosub (Dec 22, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Like it or not part of the reason we're in this situation is because the government has had far to relaxed an approach to borders and testing incoming and outgoing people since the start which is nothing but ironic and deeply pathetic considering the rhetoric it puts into kicking out the poor and preventing or demonising poor immigrants, legal or illegal.
> 
> Plus you know, Boris and his red hot negotiating strategy of erm... Pissing everyone off.




Has an ODD attitude to just about everything.

There was an aircraft fully kitted out for coastal patrol a few years back. Contract was costing the country 2mil a year.  Then Home Secretary Theresa May cancelled it at roughly the same time government spent roughly the same amount of money of some people shaped screens and projectors at airports.. 

Coastal patrol aircraft put back into service this year after the shenanigans in the channel this year, only they hadn't been mothballed - another custom fitout at considerable expense.   

Its more about being seen to be doing something in rather than substance and foundation


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 22, 2020)

Also worth pointing out this is the French and other countries decision, because they are in control of their borders. It's also far more than just the EU doing it.


The EU commission says let freight go ahead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks did I.
> I used the word 'maybe' if you care to look.


Yes I know. And you proposed it. So it's clearly something you'd like to see, a preference if you will.

Of course you could just say you've changed your mind if you're embarrassed by your suggestion now


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 22, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is really helpful...
> 
> View attachment 244779



When I was in Konstanz in August the border with Switzerland was as it ever was, open but with every car stopped. A few miles further on the German-Austrian Schengen border was firmly closed, cos Covid. So we saw what they looked like. The snidey cunt.


----------



## gosub (Dec 22, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Seems a bit of an overreaction.
> Verhofstadt is one Belgian MEP. He's not "the EU". The UK did not rely on representation by him when it was part of the EU, it was represented by all the UK MEPs.



He is the European Parliament's Brexit negotiator. (which is why Barnier has been doing the heavy lifting on behalf of the EUropean Commission)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When I was in Konstanz in August the border with Switzerland was as it ever was, open but with every car stopped. A few miles further on the German-Austrian Schengen border was firmly closed, cos Covid. So we saw what they looked like. The snidey cunt.


No one trying to get over on a motorbike?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 22, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Don't you have to be a millionaire to live there ?





Pickman's model said:


> Mostly



Not in Alderney you don’t. £350k gets you a four bedroom house, next to no taxes and some of the fastest broadband in Europe. We looked at moving there around six years ago, not wanting to be too remote to our mums stopped us making the leap.


----------



## Supine (Dec 22, 2020)

gosub said:


> He is the European Parliament's Brexit negotiator. (which is why Barnier has been doing the heavy lifting on behalf of the EUropean Commission)



I thought his role ended when Brexit happened earlier this year.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

Supine said:


> I thought his role ended when Brexit happened earlier this year.


Brexit never ends. We still haven't an agreement on services, or goods for that matter. Brexit will still be going on in ten years


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes I know. And you proposed it. So it's clearly something you'd like to see, a preference if you will.
> 
> Of course you could just say you've changed your mind if you're embarrassed by your suggestion now



'Clearly'?
Is that a riff on Priti Patel's 'obviously'?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2020)

gosub said:


> He is the European Parliament's Brexit negotiator. (which is why Barnier has been doing the heavy lifting on behalf of the EUropean Commission)


I thought he wasn't involved any more, since early this year.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Seems a bit of an overreaction.
> Verhofstadt is one Belgian MEP. He's not "the EU". The UK did not rely on representation by him when it was part of the EU, it was represented by all the UK MEPs.


That’s disingenuous.  Verhofstadt has had a much bigger role to play than “just another MEP”


----------



## Supine (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Brexit never ends. We still haven't an agreement on services, or goods for that matter. Brexit will still be going on in ten years



Our relationship never ends. They are still our neighbors whether you love them or hate them. 

His job ended though (I think)


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> 'Clearly'?
> Is that a riff on Priti Patel's 'obviously'?


Oh I see, you put this forward because you don't want to see it 

Pipe down you auld bloated bladder


----------



## philosophical (Dec 22, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh I see, you put this forward because you don't want to see it
> 
> Pipe down you auld bloated bladder



'Pipe down'?

The control freakery again.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> That’s disingenuous.  Verhofstadt has had a much bigger role to play than “just another MEP”


Yes, but now he's an MEP free to express his own individual opinions isn't he?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Yes, but now he's an MEP free to express his own individual opinions isn't he?


Am I saying he shouldn’t?  Quite the reverse.  I welcome hearing what those the EU put in charge of deciding outcomes for tens of millions of people actually think of the welfare of those people.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Am I saying he shouldn’t?  Quite the reverse.  I welcome hearing what those the EU put in charge of deciding outcomes for tens of millions of people actually think of the welfare of those people.


TBF, it's no less than the people in charge over here.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

Raheem said:


> TBF, it's no less than the people in charge over here.


Quite, which is why we don’t really need a second front in that war, let alone one that people think will somehow actually safeguard our rights.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

It’s a crappy tweet, but he’d have to be a rare saint of a man to not feel even a twinge of schadenfreude looking at the state of Johnson & Farage’s island today. Maybe he shouldn’t have tweeted it but I don’t think it’s at all surprising, I’m sure a lot of the people who have had to deal with the those two and all our string of brexit ministers feel just the same impulse.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

bimble said:


> It’s a crappy tweet, but he’d have to be a rare saint of a man to not feel even a twinge of schadenfreude looking at the state of Johnson & Farage’s island today. Maybe he shouldn’t have tweeted it but I don’t think it’s at all surprising, it I’m sure a lot of the people who have had to deal with the crap from those two feel just the same impulse.


Feel the impulse to delight in thousands of lorry drivers trapped for days in a car park in freezing conditions with no knowledge of when their nightmare will end?  No, I think most people feel sympathy for the poor fuckers.

Or the impulse to delight in food supplies being interrupted?  Could be that he’s that sociopathic but I’m not sure it is the standard reaction.

He’s totally disconnected from the consequences of any of this and it shows.  It’s just a game  for him.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

Did you see Johnson laughing and smirking at the press conference yesterday? I don’t know why you expect anything different from this guy.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 22, 2020)

bimble said:


> Did you see Johnson laughing at the press conference yesterday? I don’t know why you expect anything different from this guy.





kabbes said:


> Quite, which is why we don’t really need a second front in that war, let alone one that people think will somehow actually safeguard our rights.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

Ok. And so Brexit is better than no brexit, I wish I felt that way tbh, seeing as it’s happening.


----------



## gosub (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Feel the impulse to delight in thousands of lorry drivers trapped for days in a car park in freezing conditions with no knowledge of when their nightmare will end?  No, I think most people feel sympathy for the poor fuckers.
> 
> Or the impulse to delight in food supplies being interrupted?  Could be that he’s that sociopathic but I’m not sure it is the standard reaction.
> 
> He’s totally disconnected from the consequences of any of this and it shows.  It’s just a game  for him.



Looking at the liveries from the tv news footage they are mostly continental drivers too, probably trying to get home for Xmas.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 22, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I know Downe, I know where Nige drinks...I could make this happen...


I used to go to a folk club in a pub in Downe back in the 1970's. The bloke who ran it alway used to finish  with a rendition of Cross Road Blues, the Robert Johnson classic about someone who sold their soul to the devil. Is that where Farage got the idea, do you think?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 22, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s exactly that kind of thing that notes makes me glad we’re leaving even though I voted remain.



Also nice to be reminded that the UK government does not have a monopoly on ignorant arseholes.


----------



## bimble (Dec 22, 2020)

Anchovies! The deal hinges on anchovies now, who gets what percentage of those salty little buggers.  








						Von der Leyen takes control of Brexit talks in attempt to strike deal
					

European commission president said to be in constant contact with Boris Johnson as fishing remains key issue




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Winot (Dec 22, 2020)

bimble said:


> Anchovies! The deal hinges on anchovies now, who gets what percentage of those salty little buggers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We had anchovies for dinner. Hope it didn’t tip the balance.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 22, 2020)

Hmm resolution in part of the Dover Calais blockade, but people need to be covid-19 tested in last 72 hours.

Lateral flow testing permitted if it can detect the new variant.

UK Military to assist driver testing program.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 22, 2020)

Thought the army were gonna be busy running covid testing in schools.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 22, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Thought the army were gonna be busy running covid testing in schools.


Its quite a big army


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 22, 2020)

philosophical said:


> 'Pipe down'?
> 
> The control freakery again.


It's the auld story

You say something. Other people take it you mean what you say. You walk it back. Then you complain about control freakery like it's some sort of mantra which will disarm me. It is an obvious lie. We are after all allowed to ask timewasters and windbags to shut up, they add nothing to the site.

Tbh you say it best when you say nothing at all.


----------



## Supine (Dec 22, 2020)

Winot said:


> We had anchovies for dinner. Hope it didn’t tip the balance.



Hope you enjoyed. It's squirrels from now on.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Feel the impulse to delight in thousands of lorry drivers trapped for days in a car park in freezing conditions with no knowledge of when their nightmare will end?  No, I think most people feel sympathy for the poor fuckers.
> 
> Or the impulse to delight in food supplies being interrupted?  Could be that he’s that sociopathic but I’m not sure it is the standard reaction.
> 
> He’s totally disconnected from the consequences of any of this and it shows.  It’s just a game  for him.



I don't see that he's delighting in anything. He's making a comment directed at those who have pushed for something that inevitably involves some kind of hardening of borders.

The comment is not a very diplomatic one, so if he were making it in a formal role it would be a bit different. I can see how the tone might be misjudged at this moment but I think it's a bit melodramatic to extrapolate it into talk of the "contempt" of the EU or that he is delighting in the misery of truck drivers, many of whom will after all be Belgian.

His political view is one that involves Europe being better without hard borders. He's observing the consequences of borders being reinstated and my assumption would be that he has sympathy for those caught up in them. His comment isn't aimed at those people, it's specifically aimed at the people who wanted Brexit.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 23, 2020)

An article from msn saying that basically fishing is the remaining issue ...

Von der Leyen takes control of Brexit talks in attempt to strike deal (msn.com)


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s exactly that kind of thing that notes makes me glad we’re leaving even though I voted remain.





kabbes said:


> Quite, which is why we don’t really need a second front in that war, let alone one that people think will somehow actually safeguard our rights.



I must be having a better time than i realise because woke up this morning with a bit of crossness to spare just for this.
Are you genuinely of the opinion that Brexit is a good thing for the reason that it will strip some deluded people of the idea that the EU is a benevolent give-the-world-a-coke sort of entity that has their best interests at heart?
The loss of whatever many thousands of jobs and the people who will suffer as a result that's all acceptable collateral damage for this realisation to dawn on whoever you think needs it? That to me looks more contemptuous and disconnected from reality than guy verhofstadt's tweet.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> I must be having a better time than i realise because woke up this morning with a bit of crossness to spare just for this.
> Are you genuinely of the opinion that Brexit is a good thing for the reason that it will strip some deluded people of the idea that the EU is a benevolent give-the-world-a-coke sort of entity that has their best interests at heart?
> The loss of whatever many thousands of jobs and the people who will suffer as a result that's all acceptable collateral damage for this realisation to dawn on whoever you think needs it? That to me looks more contemptuous and disconnected from reality than guy verhofstadt's tweet.


No.

To expand: I think the EU is an extremely problematic neoliberal entity that exists to promote the flow of capital, thus ensuring not only ever greater inequality but also all the other problems that come with neoliberalism, which I can talk about for many pages if you wish.  Not being part of that club is, in principle, a Good Thing.  I also thought that the short and medium term  disruptions from leaving it would be bad enough that it was better to stay in and seek alternative ways of addressing the problems it causes.  Also, I thought that the small-c conservatism in this country does not give the right backdrop for leaving.  But that tactical decision to continue the dance with the devil doesn’t mean I like the devil. We always needed to address the common-sense understanding shared amongst the cosmopolitan, liberal element of this country that the EU were somehow a benevolent source of human rights.  So given that we are leaving, I think it’s good that those at the top of the EU tree show their true colours and actual contempt as we go.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm glad guy verhofstadt did a mean tweet is a bit different from i'm glad we're leaving the EU, but ok.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Update on the truck drivers, who have been digging holes to shit in because it did not occur to the geniuses in charge here that 'operation stack' or Brock or whatever no-deal preparedness plan they were so proud of might require toilets, and food and water.








						'Disgraceful': lorry drivers stuck at Dover tell of lack of facilities
					

Roadside conditions are ‘awful’ with little access to toilets or hot food, say drivers caught in queues




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> It's the auld story
> 
> You say something. Other people take it you mean what you say. You walk it back. Then you complain about control freakery like it's some sort of mantra which will disarm me. It is an obvious lie. We are after all allowed to ask timewasters and windbags to shut up, they add nothing to the site.
> 
> Tbh you say it best when you say nothing at all.



I preferred your edited version of control freakery than this extended one.
You don't even know what you're objecting to or so exercised about regarding what I wrote yesterday.
You are doing your typical crap about trying to pick somebody off for no discernable reason beyond your unremitting thirst to feel superior in some peculiar way.
Why don't you stop invoking the notion of 'we' where you imagine at your back cohorts of fellow wankers supporting you, and stick to 'I' and acknowledge you are one mere individual on here as I am.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Update on the truck drivers, who have been digging holes to shit in because it did not occur to the geniuses in charge here that 'operation stack' or Brock or whatever no-deal preparedness plan they were so proud of might require toilets, and food and water.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_Shithole_

Emblematic, doesn't do that justice.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

and so it starts to kick off; poor bastards...


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

This is from summer 2018. If anything has changed since then to make it less of a disaster I don’t know (second bit).


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> I'm glad guy verhofstadt did a mean tweet is a bit different from i'm glad we're leaving the EU, but ok.


I guess seeing those true colours of those at the top of the EU has had the same effect on me that I am saying I hope it has on others — a visceral feeling that I want no part of their club.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> This is from summer 2018. If anything has changed since then to make it less of a disaster I don’t know (second bit).




There's now a pandemic making everything more of a disaster.

Note the references to tory sleaze, which if anything is now worse but with far fewer consequences. I don't know what they'd have to do to lose their grip on power but apparently killing 100,000 people and threatening to starve everyone else doesn't cut it


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's now a pandemic making everything more of a disaster.
> 
> Note the references to tory sleaze, which if anything is now worse but with far fewer consequences. I don't know what they'd have to do to lose their grip on power but apparently killing 100,000 people and threatening to starve everyone else doesn't cut it



The kleptocratic coalition of conscious and unconscious support for regressive transfer of wealth still going strong.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Will Johnson feel that he can sell no deal more easily now, whilst he can point at the lorries and blame macron for it. Look at what the dastardly bastards have done we’re off etc.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Will Johnson feel that he can sell no deal more easily now, whilst it would be easy to point at the lorries and blame macron for it. Look at the dastardly bastards we’re off etc.


You can bet that's being gamed; the wall-to-wall xenophobic reaction on today's front pages of the billionaire gutter press would suggest that's certainly one reserve position.


----------



## Winot (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I guess seeing those true colours of those at the top of the EU has had the same effect on me that I am saying I hope it has on others — a visceral feeling that I want no part of their club.



Just because you were naive the first time round doesn’t mean it’s right to over-correct.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

Verhofstadt is stating one the possible consequences of the UK brexit vote.
A practical consequence.
People getting all huffy because they don't like his tone could possibly turn their attention to dealing with practical problems, or point out what isn't true about what he wrote.
The EU might be an undesirable institution, but the choice was binary, and in that context in my view the EU with it's faults is a far better option than more and more and more rule by the bastard Etonocracy that has been in local control for most of my life.
The reality highlighted by Verhofstadt is far more digestible than the freakish fantasy suggested by brexiters.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> You can bet that's being gamed; the wall-to-wall xenophobic reaction on today's front pages of the billionaire gutter press would suggest that's certainly one reserve position.


i see them, this is really bad news, imo.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> and so it starts to kick off; poor bastards...
> 
> View attachment 244883


it doesnt look look 'skuffles between drivers' looks like they are kicking off at the police who are blocking their way home.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> it doesnt look look 'skuffles between drivers' looks like they are kicking off at the police who are blocking their way home.



Yep, and who can blame them?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

Winot said:


> Just because you were naive the first time round doesn’t mean it’s right to over-correct.


Over-correcting is simply being glad to be out?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well, this is really helpful...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This tweet is accurate - many people in the UK have 'forgotten' what hard european borders look like, others will have never experienced them at all.
I think this tweet highlights the difference of the experiences of the post-war generation on the continent vs the UK. Moving around the continent by road could mean heavily armed borders with two days of trucks backed up. I have limited experience of it, but I remember seeing it as a kid.

Cake and eat it Johnson swore blind there wouldn't be tarrifs or paperwork post-Brexit - he really believed it from what I can tell. The Dartford speech was very earnestly delivered.
The deal, when its signed, looks like it will lead to tarrifs and paperwork. It will have a hard border. It will include more thorough customs checks down the Irish Sea, as well as the Channel.
It will be a novelty to a lot of people, and a vague distant memory for others.

Johnson:



Seems to me all that needed to happen was to agree a customs union. 
So yeah, a reminder, we're getting hard borders back, this is a taste of what they're like.

Is the tweet helpful? I think it is. It would've been even more helpful to talk honestly about all this before the referendum.  People are still projecting onto Brexit what they want it to be, rather than what it will be.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> This tweet is accurate - many people in the UK have 'forgotten' what hard european borders look like, others will have never experienced them at all.
> I think this tweet highlights the difference of the experiences of the post-war generation on the continent vs the UK. Moving around the continent by road could mean heavily armed borders with two days of trucks backed up.


But... in exchange, we get rid of neoliberalism - so it's all worth it!


----------



## Winot (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Over-correcting is simply being glad to be out?



More than being glad - a "visceral feeling" - and yet the facts about the EU haven't changed.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Bigger cages! Longer chains!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> This tweet is accurate - many people in the UK have 'forgotten' what hard european borders look like, others will have never experienced them at all.
> I think this tweet highlights the difference of the experiences of the post-war generation on the continent vs the UK. Moving around the continent by road could mean heavily armed borders with two days of trucks backed up. I have limited experience of it, but I remember seeing it as a kid.
> 
> Cake and eat it Johnson swore blind there wouldn't be tarrifs or paperwork post-Brexit - he really believed it from what I can tell. The Dartford speech was very earnestly delivered.
> ...


Helpful at this point?
No, to me it just looked like vindictive trolling from a position of power.

And, as others have pointed out above, the contents weren't particularly accurate. When it suited member states to block the flows of migrants, many of them imposed border controls. And there must be many folk here that voted Leave (wrongly?) thinking that trade could continue unaffected across our borders with th supra-state...largely because that's what the lying cunts kept on telling them.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

Had to happen at some point...


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> , to me it just looked like vindictive trolling from a position of power.


well yes there is that part of it, im trolling a bit myself tbh... but only a bit - as I say, its true - many people dont remember it, and dont recognise/care what is being lost


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I preferred your edited version of control freakery than this extended one.
> You don't even know what you're objecting to or so exercised about regarding what I wrote yesterday.
> You are doing your typical crap about trying to pick somebody off for no discernable reason beyond your unremitting thirst to feel superior in some peculiar way.
> Why don't you stop invoking the notion of 'we' where you imagine at your back cohorts of fellow wankers supporting you, and stick to 'I' and acknowledge you are one mere individual on here as I am.


you should be happy anyone responds to you


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Had to happen at some point...
> 
> View attachment 244889


Those drivers are not going to come back to the Uk if they have any choice in the matter are they.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I guess seeing those true colours of those at the top of the EU has had the same effect on me that I am saying I hope it has on others — a visceral feeling that I want no part of their club.


I mean, look at the way the UK has treated the EU for the past few years, lied about it and fucked it around - the internal market bill was a good example of this - and they're supposed to keep turning the other cheek?. They've been quite restrained.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I mean, look at the way the UK has treated the EU for the past few years, lied about it and fucked it around - the internal market bill was a good example of this - and they're supposed to keep turning the other cheek?. They've been quite restrained.


You’re still mixing up “the U.K.” as some kind of unified single entity with the people that live and work within the nations borders.  To laugh at what is happening, which is very much the tone of Verhofstadt, is actually to laugh at the plight of the latter, regardless how little fault they personally bear


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Those drivers are not going to come back to the Uk if they have any choice in the matter are they.


Which should be a matter of huge concern to our 'government'.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you should be happy anyone responds to you



You call what you do 'responding'?
Your inflated self regard knows no bounds does it?
You selectively 'react' to those you seem to wish to dominate.
Indeed quite a classic general reactionary trait.
Is it born out of having no ideas of your own?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I mean, look at the way the UK has treated the EU for the past few years, lied about it and fucked it around - the internal market bill was a good example of this - and they're supposed to keep turning the other cheek?. They've been quite restrained.


When you say the past few years I suppose you mean the leave campaign onwards. But the leave campaign isn't the UK


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

30,000 exemptions to the no free movement thing, to make sure that we can eat the great British produce next year.  maybe there'll just be a lot of this sort of thing, 50,000 exemptions for people to work in pret a mangers etc.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Had to happen at some point...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if thats true and this is:


+ reports there are 10,000 trucks idling at a distance
its looking royal fucked


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

hashtag humanity


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> You’re still mixing up “the U.K.” as some kind of unified single entity with the people that live and work within the nations borders.  To laugh at what is happening, which is very much the tone of Verhofstadt, is actually to laugh at the plight of the latter, regardless how little fault they personally bear


Well, they did give Johnson an 80 seat majority.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 23, 2020)

Press blaming Macron is so blatantly dishonest, but can see why they’re doing it. Same will happen for any and all Brexit related fuckovers won’t it? Not our fault, never our fault. British exceptionalism writ large.

“fuck that nightclub, those evil bouncers wouldn’t let me in just because I was on fire“


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well, they did give Johnson an 80 seat majority.


With the labour vote higher than 2005, 2010 and 2015


----------



## Johnny Doe (Dec 23, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is the tweet helpful? I think it is. It would've been even more helpful to talk honestly about all this before the referendum.  People are still projecting onto Brexit what they want it to be, rather than what it will be.



Small country self-immolates itself by leaving powerful trading block. One of trading blocks rep's loses patience with years of small country's fuckery, ridiculously trying to somehow convince trading block to make leaving attractive/beneficial and says 'told you so'. Everyone's position remains the same, because funny enough a large powerful trading block is much more powerful than on individual island nation.

Much like Trump, the support for these things isn't based on facts and won't be changed by them, even when the consequences are smashing those who supported them over the head


----------



## Johnny Doe (Dec 23, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Press blaming Macron is so blatantly dishonest, but can see why they’re doing it. Same will happen for any and all Brexit related fuckovers won’t it? Not our fault, never our fault. British exceptionalism writ large.
> 
> “fuck that nightclub, those evil bouncers wouldn’t let me in just because I was on fire“



Yup, and those who believe Schrodinger's Immigrants are sat at home on benefits with huge TVs AND taking our jobs, will lap it up


----------



## Supine (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Will Johnson feel that he can sell no deal more easily now, whilst he can point at the lorries and blame macron for it. Look at what the dastardly bastards have done we’re off etc.



In no deal he'd have the same issues to deal with at all ports with all freight not just Dover with lorry drivers. He'd be mad to let that happen (I think he is stupid enough).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s exactly that kind of thing that notes makes me glad we’re leaving even though I voted remain.


I don't get this at all. The tweet is clearly addressed at those who 'thought borders would remain open with or without the EU', pointing out that this is the kind of thing that happens when you put up new borders. I don't see that as gloating - it's directed at the delusional people within the UK, who very much include Boris Johnson and his cronies, who think the UK can have its cake and eat it. He thinks Brexit is full of bad things that will have bad consequences, one of which is the imposition of new border restrictions. I agree with him, as do millions of other Britons.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

This is so bad. Best they can promise is that ‘it will take a few days’ for the drivers to have a chance of getting home for Christmas.








						One arrested as angry lorry drivers clash with police in Dover
					

Frustration rises on Kent coast among ‘very, very angry’ truckers




					www.independent.co.uk
				



Is it impossible for covid tests to be brought to where they are (2,800 of them now it says).


----------



## Johnny Doe (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't get this at all. The tweet is clearly addressed at those who 'thought borders would remain open with or without the EU', pointing out that this is the kind of thing that happens when you put up new borders. I don't see that as gloating - it's directed at the delusional people within the UK, who very much include Boris Johnson and his cronies, who think the UK can have its cake and eat it. He thinks Brexit is full of bad things that will have bad consequences, one of which is the imposition of new border restrictions. I agree with him, as do millions of other Britons.



Indeed, if you spend 2 hours at party shouting this is shit and I'm leaving, don't be surprised if one of the other party goers calls you a prick, after you've demanded taking everyone else booze, drugs and cake with you too.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> Indeed, if you spend 2 hours at party shouting this is shit and I'm leaving, don't be surprised if one of the other party goers calls you a prick, after you've demanded taking everyone else booze, drugs and cake with you too.


How perceptive of you


----------



## gosub (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Those drivers are not going to come back to the Uk if they have any choice in the matter are they.



That's actually good for UK haulage long term.
The companies whose loads are being held up and whatever insurance they have (another large UK industry) not so much


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

gosub said:


> That's actually good for UK haulage long term.
> The companies whose loads are being held up and whatever insurance they have (another large UK industry) not so much


Historically, autarky has a terrible track record as an economic policy aimed at increasing economic activity. I see absolutely no reason why any attempt at it by the UK would not be equally disastrous.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well, they did give Johnson an 80 seat majority.


What, the lorry drivers in the car park?  Everybody who won’t be able to buy food?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 23, 2020)

New normal with covid will presumably be to pair up drivers and trucks. Truck driver drives to the ferry, fumigates the cab and picks up truck going the other way and do it in reverse the other side.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> New normal with covid will presumably be to pair up drivers and trucks. Truck driver drives to the ferry, fumigates the cab and picks up truck going the other way and do it in reverse the other side.


They are doing this now.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Reportedly kicking off down Dover way now.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They are doing this now.



See, told you


----------



## gosub (Dec 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> New normal with covid will presumably be to pair up drivers and trucks. Truck driver drives to the ferry, fumigates the cab and picks up truck going the other way and do it in reverse the other side.


or only have trailers make the ferry journey


----------



## two sheds (Dec 23, 2020)

Not sure how we've got so many French drivers over this side though.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 23, 2020)

gosub said:


> or only have tailers make the ferry journey



Did wonder about that but will be a logistical exercise getting the cabs to and from the loads.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Did wonder about that but will be a logistical exercise getting the cabs to and from the loads.


They are putting the loads on with the cabs and taking a similar one off.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

They could have done this from the start but for the French attitudes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

Harry Smiles said:


> Indeed, if you spend 2 hours at party shouting this is shit and I'm leaving, don't be surprised if one of the other party goers calls you a prick, after you've demanded taking everyone else booze, drugs and cake with you too.


Tbh if I saw Boris Johnson at a party I'd shout this is shit and I'm leaving. And then leave


----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2020)

Let's hear it for Brexit one more time! Cabbage galore!





> *Could supply chain worries mean we produce more food here?*
> We could - though there would certainly not be the variety consumers are used to. The National Farmers' Union says the UK imports 45% of its vegetables, the vast majority of which come from the EU.
> Britain also buys 84% of its fruit from overseas, although it is less dependent on the EU for these goods.
> However, Spain is the biggest supplier of fruit to the UK, accounting for 19% of imports.
> ...











						How dependent is the UK on the EU for food?
					

France's ban on freight from Britain caused havoc for lorry drivers, but will it affect shoppers?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

editor said:


> Let's hear it for Brexit one more time! Cabbage galore!
> 
> View attachment 244909
> 
> ...


It's almost like the effect of spending decades as a member of a trade area with open borders and the free movement of goods and people has been to integrate various aspects of the economy, creating complex webs of dependency, with specialisations in different areas. 

whodathunk?


----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's almost like the effect of spending decades as a member of a trade area with open borders and the free movement of goods and people has been to integrate various aspects of the economy, creating complex webs of dependency, with specialisations in different areas.
> 
> whodathunk?



Yes. But the Proud To Be British blue passports have got to be worth the pain of a winter diet of beetroots and cabbage. That'll show those Johnny Foreigners!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

The net effect of any attempt at autarky will be to make the average British person poorer. And that very much includes those tradespeople who voted to leave because they were worried about EU workers coming here and undercutting their prices. 

It flies in the face of history to believe different.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

To be honest the thought of all nations being more self sufficient in food is environmentally necessary in the long run. Food miles are a huge contributor to co2, not to mention the damage caused by pesticides and so on used to grow them. A massive upswing in organic farming (even using greenhouses to grow hotter weather crops, like the Dutch do so well) would be a good thing long term. Clearly right now the UK does not have very good food security /food sovereignty.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not sure how we've got so many French drivers over this side though.



Only place they can get a decent cup of tea.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> To be honest the thought of all nations being more self sufficient in food is environmentally necessary in the long run. Food miles are a huge contributor to co2, not to mention the damage caused by pesticides and so on used to grow them. A massive upswing in organic farming (even using greenhouses to grow hotter weather crops, like the Dutch do so well) would be a good thing long term. Clearly right now the UK does not have very good food security /food sovereignty.


All nations? Even Luxembourg? What size does a nation have to be before it should consider closing itself off? Why is something moving from Scotland to southern England, say, less destructive than something moving from France to southern England?

Sharing sovereignty/security isn't necessarily a bad thing. Should the nation state be the unit of self-sufficiency? Why?

I agree with the wider point about changing how we grow, distribute and consume our food, but this is not the way to fix it.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What, the lorry drivers in the car park?  Everybody who won’t be able to buy food?


It's unclear why you think his comments are aimed at the lorry drivers, or everyone who won't be able to buy food.
It says "some thought they would remain open with or without the EU".


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Obviously the nation state shouldn't be the unit, but in the context of this situation, unfortunately it is. I am in favor of community self-sufficiency down to the lowest practicable level. Households,streets, communities. Even Luxembourgs


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Food miles are a huge contributor to co2, not to mention the damage caused by pesticides and so on used to grow them. A massive upswing in organic farming (even using greenhouses to grow hotter weather crops, like the Dutch do so well) would be a good thing long term.


This, as far as I know, is basically not correct. There are food miles and there are food miles. In many cases, it uses less energy to grow the stuff somewhere else, and then transport it, than it would to try and grow it here. Nor is organic farming any kind of magic answer to food production.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Obviously the nation state shouldn't be the unit, but in the context of this situation, unfortunately it is. I am in favor of community self-sufficiency down to the lowest practicable level. Households,streets, communities. Even Luxembourgs


Most of us live in towns and cities. Food necessarily has to be grown elsewhere. And often there are better places to grow it than right next to the town/city - more efficient places to grow it even with a few more food miles thrown in.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Obviously the nation state shouldn't be the unit, but in the context of this situation, unfortunately it is. I am in favor of community self-sufficiency down to *the lowest practicable level.* Households,streets, communities. Even Luxembourgs



That level is "global" without massive changes to lifestyle that most people simply aren't going to accept.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2020)




----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 23, 2020)

I think they should sign the deal in Deal! There's that pub near there where you can get a French phone signal, should suit everyone.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 23, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Not sure how we've got so many French drivers over this side though.


  Not so much french as Central Europeans - these poor fuckers spend weeks on the road at a time, cabotaging their way around Europe and beyond.


----------



## Chz (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> To be honest the thought of all nations being more self sufficient in food is environmentally necessary in the long run. Food miles are a huge contributor to co2, not to mention the damage caused by pesticides and so on used to grow them. A massive upswing in organic farming (even using greenhouses to grow hotter weather crops, like the Dutch do so well) would be a good thing long term. Clearly right now the UK does not have very good food security /food sovereignty.


Food miles aren't as big a contributor as heating greenhouses and polytunnels is.









						Everything you thought about the carbon footprint of imported food is wrong, says top professor
					

Bananas from Dominican Republic and apples from New Zealand are among the most carbon-friendly foods




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## tommers (Dec 23, 2020)

I really like cabbage so no worries.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Supermarket was heaving with fresh fruit and lettuce today.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That level is "global" without massive changes to lifestyle that most people simply aren't going to accept.



Tough fucking shit. With the ongoing climate crisis people will have no choice but to accept these changes to their precious lifestyles


----------



## tommers (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Supermarket was heaving with fresh fruit and lettuce today.



Yeah it'll be a while yet.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Supermarket was heaving with fresh fruit and lettuce today.


Same here. Lemons and everything.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Chz said:


> Food miles aren't as big a contributor as heating greenhouses and polytunnels is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is bollocks. And I said nothing about heating said greenhouses, nor polytunnels. Food miles are bad, end of story. People just want to justify it because the thought of relying on what can be grown locally offends their middle class privilege. But that was largely how the world worked until very very recently. We're all spoilt silly by globalization. Growing your own food is one of the most radical things you can do. It's not just about the food as the system which delivers it -in the case of your imported avocados and cashews and so on it is exploitative, environmentally damaging and corporately manged.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

There will be loads of Kale available. Remainers love Kale.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Tough fucking shit. With the ongoing climate crisis people will have no choice but to accept these changes to their precious lifestyles


There are plenty of better choices than wrongheaded dogmatic localism.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Lufhansa is coming to rescue us ?


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> There are plenty of better choices than wrongheaded dogmatic localism.



Like voting Labour?


----------



## tommers (Dec 23, 2020)

Why are an airline sending us vegetables?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This is bollocks. And I said nothing about heating said greenhouses, nor polytunnels. Food miles are bad, end of story. People just want to justify it because the thought of relying on what can be grown locally offends their middle class privilege. But that was largely how the world worked until very very recently. We're all spoilt silly by globalization. Growing your own food is one of the most radical things you can do. It's not just about the food as the system which delivers it -in the case of your imported avocados and cashews and so on it is exploitative, environmentally damaging and corporately manged.


You specifically referenced using greenhouses to grow hotter-weather crops, tbf.

Which bits of the article are bollocks? The point about air or sea is an important one, no? Not all food miles are equal.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> God bless the Germans.
> 
> Why are an airline sending us vegetables?


They are manky and it's cheaper than feeding them to dogs.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You specifically referenced using greenhouses to grow hotter-weather crops, tbf.
> 
> Which bits of the article are bollocks? The point about air or sea is an important one, no? Not all food miles are equal.


Greenhouses and poly tunnels are not all heated.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Why are an airline sending us vegetables?


returning the favour for the berlin airlift maybe.


----------



## 2hats (Dec 23, 2020)

Chz said:


> Food miles aren't as big a contributor as heating greenhouses and polytunnels is.


Depends on the energy source used. Ignores pollution driven health issues. The geothermally heated greenhouses in Iceland aren't contributing a lot to greenhouse emissions.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 23, 2020)

It’s the Berlin airlift in reverse. At least they are not having to send us coal nowadays


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Greenhouses and poly tunnels are not all heated.


But we need to talk about specifics here, not generalities. What actually happens? What is actually possible? Eg this bit in the article:



> Lettuces grown in the UK during winter are cultivated in poly tunnels which require lots of energy to keep them warm. In terms of carbon emissions, it is more environmentally friendly to buy them from Spain during the winter and in the UK during the summer.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> This is bollocks. And I said nothing about heating said greenhouses, nor polytunnels. Food miles are bad, end of story. People just want to justify it because the thought of relying on what can be grown locally offends their middle class privilege. But that was largely how the world worked until very very recently. We're all spoilt silly by globalization. Growing your own food is one of the most radical things you can do. It's not just about the food as the system which delivers it -in the case of your imported avocados and cashews and so on it is exploitative, environmentally damaging and corporately manged.


The idea that everyone can grow their own food is privileged middle class hippy nonsense.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> But we need to talk about specifics here, not generalities. What actually happens? What is actually possible? Eg this bit in the article:


How about we eat seasonal veg grown in the UK?


----------



## tommers (Dec 23, 2020)

DotCommunist said:


> returning the favour for the berlin airlift maybe.


 I'm really confused. 

Why have Lufthansa got 80 tons of veg lying about? Why have they sent it to Doncaster? And who is paying for it? 

Weird.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

DotCommunist said:


> returning the favour for the berlin airlift maybe.


I was just reading about that! Amazing what happened, the quantities.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> Why are an airline sending us vegetables?


A reverse, retro Berliner Luftbrücke?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

The EU pay landowners here to leave land fallow whilst we import millions of tonnes of veg from all over Europe. Bonkers.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> There's now a pandemic making everything more of a disaster.
> 
> Note the references to tory sleaze, which if anything is now worse but with far fewer consequences. I don't know what they'd have to do to lose their grip on power but apparently killing 100,000 people and threatening to starve everyone else doesn't cut it



This is why I honestly can't get to upset with the EU, yes its a club of elite toffs who are in it for the money but mechanisms in France and Germany mean those toffs get beaten up if they go to hard for full Capitalism now. 

Leaving the EU has us stuck in the UK with the fucking Tories in charge and very little in the way of opposition  This is the reason I voted Remain, I had no wish to be left alone with the fuckers.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> I was just reading about that! Amazing what happened, the quantities.


. This isn’t a bad buke on it from my own library


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> The idea that everyone can grow their own food is privileged middle class hippy nonsense.



Not as middle class as imagining having tropical fruit and veg on the shelves is somehow normal.


----------



## Chz (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> How about we eat seasonal veg grown in the UK?


Because changing land use is one of the most environmentally unfriendly things you can do, and we'd have to plough under a *lot *of land to feed ourselves. Even if it was all in-season.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Chz said:


> Because changing land use is one of the most environmentally unfriendly things you can do, and we'd have to plough under a *lot *of land to feed ourselves. Even if it was all in-season.


Create lots of jobs, fresher food and cheaper too.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Not as middle class as imagining having tropical fruit and veg on the shelves is somehow normal.


No more bananas and oranges ? Or is it just the silly stuff like cumquats.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Supermarket was heaving with fresh fruit and lettuce today.


Thank heavens , normally at xmas there are queues for lettuce


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Not so much french as Central Europeans - these poor fuckers spend weeks on the road at a time, cabotaging their way around Europe and beyond.



Yep. We sent a package through a semi official courier that runs from Ireland to Romania (and everywhere in between) last Sunday.. The driver was on the trip with his teenage son and last we heard they were stuck in Dover  for a few days, when they should have been home for Christmas already.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Thank heavens , normally at xmas there are queues for lettuce


Christmas dinner would not be the same without a lettuce and avocado warm salad.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Not as middle class as imagining having tropical fruit and veg on the shelves is somehow normal.



I must be posher than I thought because I do think it's pretty normal to find bananas in supermarkets.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Yeah wtf even are bananas. The ones you eat were basically invented in the UK. Cavendish. Are they even that good? Oranges from Spain not a huge problem imo all things considered, they were imported already hundreds of years ago, albeit only for the very rich. I forsee no future without citrus. But bananas... Meh. Read up about the supply chain. Why the phrase "banana Republic"? Lots of exploitation there. 



bimble said:


> No more bananas and oranges ? Or is it just the silly stuff like cumquats.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Not as middle class as imagining having tropical fruit and veg on the shelves is somehow normal.


I wasn't aware of the fact that only the middle classes eat, say, bananas.
Anyway, it is normal. Children not dying in the first couple of years is also now normal. It wasn't in the past, so maybe we should get rid of it? Probably not possible to source all of our healthcare needs from the back garden.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I must be posher than I thought because I do think it's pretty normal to find bananas in supermarkets.


It wont happen after Brexit apparently.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> I must be posher than I thought because I do think it's pretty normal to find bananas in supermarkets.



When did that start? How has consumption changed over time? What keeps prices down? Who is really paying, if yours are so cheap?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Yeah wtf even are bananas. The ones you eat were basically invented in the UK. Cavendish. Are they even that good? Oranges from Spain not a huge problem imo all things considered, they were imported already hundreds of years ago, albeit only for the very rich. I forsee no future without citrus. But bananas... Meh. Read up about the supply chain. Why the phrase "banana Republic"? Lots of exploitation there.


So you pay a little more for fair trade bananas. They do exist, and they're not that expensive. 

But that's surely a 'middle class' thing to do. 

You're all over the place.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 23, 2020)

Oh. 


splonkydoo said:


> Yep. We sent a package through a semi official courier that runs from Ireland to Romania (and everywhere in between) last Sunday.. The driver was on the trip with his teenage son and last we heard they were stuck in Dover  for a few days, when they should have been home for Christmas already.



Oh. I heard a similar courier service (romanian) got stopped in France the other day, in the parking lot where everyone was dropping their parcels off to send home for christmas. The filth turned up on some bogus public order/corona charge and destroyed/smashed everyone's parcels in front of them. Utter scum.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I wasn't aware of the fact that only the middle classes eat, say, bananas.
> Anyway, it is normal. Children not dying in the first couple of years is also now normal. It wasn't in the past, so maybe we should get rid of it? Probably not possible to source all of our healthcare needs from the back garden.



The middle class bit is where you defend your right to bananas as if it were some centuries old tradition. You have cheap bananas cos farmers in the countries that grow them live in poverty. I have no more to say on the matter


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> When did that start? How has consumption changed over time? What keeps prices down? Who is really paying, if yours are so cheap?


What you're actually talking about is the kind of changes that will barely touch the middle classes as they will be able to afford the new high prices and limited availability. These are the kinds of changes that hurt the poorest the most.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

It's no surprise that remainers here are big supporters of globalisation.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's no surprise that remainers here are big supporters of globalisation. This was and is a big part of our problems.


Bollocks. You're just coming out with incoherent nonsense. That's all.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So you pay a little more for fair trade bananas. They do exist, and they're not that expensive.
> 
> But that's surely a 'middle class' thing to do.
> 
> You're all over the place.



"fair trade" jesus christ. Cos the fair trade banana growers can also treat themselves to a bit of smoked Scottish salmon at a moments notice can't they.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Bollocks. You're just coming out with incoherent nonsense. That's all.


You are just getting remoaner tetchy as you know it's TRUE.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> "fair trade" jesus christ. Cos the fair trade banana growers can also treat themselves to a bit of smoked Scottish salmon at a moments notice can't they.


Why do you single out bananas for this special treatment. Fair trade is better. It's far from great. But you will struggle to find anything that hasn't included exploitation of people much poorer than you. Not clothes, not books, not any electronic equipment. 

These are things that need changing, of course, but it's disingenuous to single out food.


----------



## Winot (Dec 23, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I think they should sign the deal in Deal! There's that pub near there where you can get a French phone signal, should suit everyone.



My favourite pub in Deal is called The Just Reproach. That would be a good place to do it.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What you're actually talking about is the kind of changes that will barely touch the middle classes as they will be able to afford the new high prices and limited availability. These are the kinds of changes that hurt the poorest the most.



Almost as if the underlying problem were global capitalism and the food system another mirror to reflects these widespread and deepening problems inherent in capitalism. I have no time for this argument. "if bananas are more expensive the poor of the UK will suffer and middle class won't!" but the alternative is cheap bananas for everyone on the back of dirt wages in the global South. So take your pick. Ciao


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Create lots of jobs, fresher food and cheaper too.


Maybe we can pick berries down the wood?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Almost as if the underlying problem were global capitalism and the food system another mirror to reflects these widespread and deepening problems inherent in capitalism. I have no time for this argument. "if bananas are more expensive the poor of the UK will suffer and middle class won't!" but the alternative is cheap bananas for everyone on the back of dirt wages in the global South. So take your pick. Ciao


You want particular changes. Fine. But don't hide behind the false idea that this is just some 'middle class' concern. It's not. Those changes would affect working class people far more.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Someone else started going about bananas, but yeah it's just an example and applies to everything. That is obvious. I know that. Easy to talk about food as we all eat food every day, yet don't buy books or electronics daily. 





littlebabyjesus said:


> Why do you single out bananas for this special treatment. Fair trade is better. It's far from great. But you will struggle to find anything that hasn't included exploitation of people much poorer than you. Not clothes, not books, not any electronic equipment.
> 
> These are things that need changing, of course, but it's disingenuous to single out food.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> "fair trade" jesus christ. Cos the fair trade banana growers can also treat themselves to a bit of smoked Scottish salmon at a moments notice can't they.


No more tea then.


----------



## splonkydoo (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The middle class bit is where you defend your right to bananas as if it were some centuries old tradition. You have cheap bananas cos farmers in the countries that grow them live in poverty. I have no more to say on the matter


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's no surprise that remainers here are big supporters of globalisation.



Life just wouldn't be the same without Kenyan green beans Chilean blueberries, Argentinian blackberries,  Zambian sugarsnap peas,  Zimbabwean broccoli, or American apples and plums


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

The banana argument is very stupid.
This is genuinely frightening though. Faced with this, the fact that whatever their plans they did not anticipate brexiting right at the worst moment of a mutant virus crisis, i don't know if Johnson will be able to do the same as yesterday, the knowing smirk whilst repeating how we will prosper mightily. He probably will though.








						NHS chiefs urge PM to extend Brexit transition by a month
					

Crashing out of EU without a deal will put patients at risk and leave health service on cliff edge, says NHS Confederation




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 23, 2020)

2016: Look at Project Fear trying to scare everyone.

2020: Look at the posh cunts and their fancy bananas. The champagne delivery might be late as well, your lordship!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

The empty shelves are all part of the plan to save the planet.

Eating lettuce and tomatoes in December???

Worse than Hitler.


----------



## andysays (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> The idea that everyone can grow their own food is privileged middle class hippy nonsense.


I don't think anyone has suggested here that everyone should grow even some of their own food.

But the idea that we can buy whatever we want, from wherever in the world, at any time of year we want and with no regard to the economic social and climactic consequences, is pretty much the epitome of privileged first world middle class nonsense.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

andysays said:


> I don't think anyone has suggested here that everyone should grow even some of their own food.
> 
> But the idea that we can buy whatever we want, from wherever in the world, at any time of year we want and with no regard to the economic social and climactic consequences, is pretty much the epitome of privileged first world middle class nonsense.


Well, it's news to me that anyone has suggested that either.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

andysays said:


> I don't think anyone has suggested here that everyone should grow even some of their own food.
> 
> But the idea that we can buy whatever we want, from wherever in the world, at any time of year we want and with no regard to the economic social and climactic consequences, is pretty much the epitome of privileged first world middle class nonsense.


Pretending that the disruption to food supplies caused by brexit is going to do anything to affect the problems of globalisation is errant nonsense. It's a feeble attempt to turn a clear negative into a positive, and a pretty hateful one, imo, because it is doing exactly what a lot of people have been condemning over the last few pages - celebrating or trivialising something that is going to affect the lives of the poorest the most.


----------



## grit (Dec 23, 2020)

Fog in channel, continent isolated.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

I actually generally try not to buy fresh fruit and vegetables from anywhere too far away especially if I suspect they have been air freighted. On the other hand I mostly don't worry too much about stuff from France or Spain because they are relatively close; indeed some parts of France are closer to the south of England than parts of the UK are. If a consequence of Brexit is that prices for stuff from our near neighbours go up, it certainly seems unlikely it's going to help reduce any food miles.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I actually generally try not to buy fresh fruit and vegetables from anywhere too far away especially if I suspect they have been air freighted. On the other hand I mostly don't worry too much about stuff from France or Spain because they are relatively close; indeed some parts of France are closer to the south of England than parts of the UK are. If a consequence of Brexit is that prices for stuff from our near neighbours go up, it certainly seems unlikely it's going to help reduce any food miles.


Yep. Me too. Some of the worst stuff for this, ironically enough, is organic veg, which comes from all over.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> No more tea then.



Japanese tea isn't that expensive, the workers get a decent minimum wage (if they're not robots).

For most food imports the labour costs of growing and harvesting is a tiny proportion of the supermarket price.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> No more tea then.


Naught tea naught tea very naught tea


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Japanese tea isn't that expensive, the workers get a decent minimum wage (if they're not robots).
> 
> For most food imports the labour costs of growing and harvesting is a tiny proportion of the supermarket price.


I just learnt that the UK is listed just above Japan in the worlds top countries for exporting tea. What a world.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> I just learnt that the UK is listed just above Japan in the worlds top countries for exporting tea. What a world.



The Yorkshire tea mines are one of our darkest secrets


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

so...what's all this, then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> The Yorkshire tea mines are one of our darkest secrets


They're hidden underneath the spaghetti trees.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

It might mean a border in the Irish sea.
Which if it does, it means it won't be the brexit as voted for.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might mean a border in the Irish sea.
> Which if it does, it means it won't be the brexit as voted for.



We voted for A Brexit but no specifics were specified as to which we would get.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> We voted for A Brexit but no specifics were specified as to which we would get.


We're definitely not getting A Brexit. F Brexit at best.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

Er...all you remainical grump-pusses...


----------



## cloudyday (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> The idea that everyone can grow their own food is privileged middle class hippy nonsense.



It’s this sort of bollocks that leads to councils selling off allotments unchallenged, depriving many working class areas with an easy way to subsidise their diets with fresh locally grown veg.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

If they have agreed terms will we get a special press conference with absolutely no detail and loads of triumphalism and metaphors ? Can’t wait.








						Brexit trade and security deal with EU within 'touching distance', says No 10
					

Boris Johnson briefs cabinet on breakthrough and is expected to address nation early on Christmas Eve




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> If they have agreed terms will we get a special press conference with absolutely no detail and loads of triumphalism and metaphors ? Can’t wait.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We will have a world beating press conference


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We're definitely not getting A Brexit. F Brexit at best.


Many people have been saying f brexit for years


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We will have a world beating press conference


Live from Heston aerodrome.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Live from Heston aerodrome.


Live from ascension island where Boris Johnson is boarding a ship to south georgia


----------



## grit (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might mean a border in the Irish sea.



it will


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might mean a border in the Irish sea.
> Which if it does, it means it won't be the brexit as voted for.


----------



## tommers (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might mean a border in the Irish sea.
> Which if it does, it means it won't be the brexit as voted for.


 What? Why haven't you mentioned this before?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

tommers said:


> What? Why haven't you mentioned this before?


Fucking four years he's had to point this out and only now, a matter of hours before everything goes tits up, does he mention it


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

You fucking what? a border in the Irish sea? Has the world gone completely mad!?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

Apparently the stars are right








						Brexit trade and security deal with EU within 'touching distance', says No 10
					

Boris Johnson briefs cabinet on breakthrough and is expected to address nation early on Christmas Eve




					www.theguardian.com
				



Which means great cthulhu will awake from his sleep at r'lyeh


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Brilliant, one soldier for each of the lorries we were told about.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> It might mean a border in the Irish sea.
> Which if it does, it means it won't be the brexit as voted for.


Won't happen


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 23, 2020)

Rumours of progress



..and the pound has taken a little jump against the Euro during the course of the afternoon.  Something is going on.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 23, 2020)

Conveniently just before Christmas, which will damp down the inevitable howls of betrayal from the Tory right and wails of distress from industries that have been thrown under a bus.


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 23, 2020)

Reading that twitter thread, the suggestion is that the fish impasse will be solved by the EU fishermen promising to pay 25% of the value of their catch to the U.K. fishermen. Nothing that can go wrong with a scheme like that I’m sure.  I mean they can all count without making mistakes, no doubt....!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

They've taken pity on the plague boat.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Reading that twitter thread, the suggestion is that the fish impasse will be solved by the EU fishermen promising to pay 25% of the value of their catch to the U.K. fishermen. Nothing that can go wrong with a scheme like that I’m sure.  I mean they can all count without making mistakes, no doubt....!


No way! Did Boris give in and accept just 25% on fish? Traitorous. Etc.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> We voted for A Brexit but no specifics were specified as to which we would get.



I understand what you're saying, but the ballot paper indicated that whatever 'brexit' we would get would be for the whole of the UK.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I understand what you're saying, but the ballot paper indicated that whatever 'brexit' we would get would be for the whole of the UK.



Norn leaving the UK sounds pretty definitive even if thats not what NI voted for.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Rumours of progress
> 
> 
> 
> ..and the pound has taken a little jump against the Euro during the course of the afternoon.  Something is going on.



Yeh I linked to the guardian report upthread


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I understand what you're saying, but the ballot paper indicated that whatever 'brexit' we would get would be for the whole of the UK.



No it didn't. It gave no indication at all as to what any aspect of brexit would look like.


----------



## quiet guy (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Live from Heston aerodrome.


Don't you mean Heston Services?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I understand what you're saying


That's a good starting point


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

quiet guy said:


> Don't you mean Heston Services?


As it is now, yes.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> As it is now, yes.
> 
> View attachment 244961



Johnson is going to end up looking more like him than his beloved Winston Churchill, I suspect...


----------



## philosophical (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No it didn't. It gave no indication at all as to what any aspect of brexit would look like.



I agree it didn't give any indication at all as to what any aspect of brexit would look like except



It would be for the 'United Kingdom', whatever it turns out to be.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 23, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Johnson is going to end up looking more like him than his beloved Winston Churchill, I suspect...


NC even at his feeblest far superior to Boris 'hitler won at Stalingrad' Johnson


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

cloudyday said:


> It’s this sort of bollocks that leads to councils selling off allotments unchallenged, depriving many working class areas with an easy way to subsidise their diets with fresh locally grown veg.


You reckon it's practical for everyone, or even most people, to grow their own food?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> That level is "global" without massive changes to lifestyle that most people simply aren't going to accept.


Isn’t the “people won’t accept it” argument the exact one you are on the opposite side of when you advocate for the end of private motor cars?


----------



## MrCurry (Dec 23, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I linked to the guardian report upthread



Missed that - I’ve not been keeping up with the thread, but great news if some of the uncertainty is finally getting resolved.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Missed that - I’ve not been keeping up with the thread, but great news if some of the uncertainty is finally getting resolved.


Late pitch for most optimistic post of the year award.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Isn’t the “people won’t accept it” argument the exact one you are on the opposite side of when you advocate for the end of private motor cars?


Yes. However, living without private car ownership is a little less dramatic than living without any global exchange of goods, and it's also something that many people already manage to do.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> You reckon it's practical for everyone, or even most people, to grow their own food?



It's not as impractical as your somewhat limited imagination. A tiny proportion of the world population do, after all, grow food for the whole world. So the simple idea that _those that can _growing some of their own food _where possible _is not some hippy dream. As stated by others, allotments were rather common until not long ago. And they should be common again. Every onion grown and eaten without any exchange of money is a good thing. Just because not absolutely fucking everyone can realistically do it _tomorrow _doesn't mean that a lot of people couldn't put a bit of effort it. How much land in the UK is just sitting there uselessly looking green and pretty when it could be growing cabbages? Rather a lot, I think. And that includes the majority of lawns/gardens.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 23, 2020)

MrCurry said:


> Missed that - I’ve not been keeping up with the thread, but great news if some of the uncertainty is finally getting resolved.



Well, in the short term it can't be worse than 'no deal,' but beyond that it's just a matter of how much lube they slap on the cock before we all get royally shafted.  There are no good outcomes any  more.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It's not as impractical as your somewhat limited imagination. A tiny proportion of the world population do, after all, grow food for the whole world. So the simple idea that _those that can _growing some of their own food _where possible _is not some hippy dream. As stated by others, allotments were rather common until not long ago. And they should be common again. Every onion grown and eaten without any exchange of money is a good thing. Just because not absolutely fucking everyone can realistically do it _tomorrow _doesn't mean that a lot of people couldn't put a bit of effort it. How much land in the UK is just sitting there uselessly looking green and pretty when it could be growing cabbages? Rather a lot, I think. And that includes the majority of lawns/gardens.


What I said was nonsense was the idea that everyone can grow their own food. Can some people grow some of their own food? Sure. Can this have a big impact on the energy/environmental impacts of agricultural production? In my opinion, not really. Just some fiddling around the edges, for people with the time and the inclination.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Well obviously there would need to be a pretty much total shutdown of the global meat industry, or at very least all cattle farming, in order to achieve measurable CO2 reductions but just because an action won't make _immediate global impact _doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> What I said was nonsense was the idea that everyone can grow their own food.


Whose idea was that?

Local/household food production should be encouraged and should have been as an official response to the Brexit vote.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It's not as impractical as your somewhat limited imagination. A tiny proportion of the world population do, after all, grow food for the whole world. So the simple idea that _those that can _growing some of their own food _where possible _is not some hippy dream. As stated by others, allotments were rather common until not long ago. And they should be common again. Every onion grown and eaten without any exchange of money is a good thing. Just because not absolutely fucking everyone can realistically do it _tomorrow _doesn't mean that a lot of people couldn't put a bit of effort it. How much land in the UK is just sitting there uselessly looking green and pretty when it could be growing cabbages? Rather a lot, I think. And that includes the majority of lawns/gardens.


'put a bit of effort in'

Without a garden or an allotment? 

I agree that we should have lots more allotments, but it is not within the power of those without allotments just to magic one up for themselves with 'a bit of effort'.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Well obviously there would need to be a pretty much total shutdown of the global meat industry, or at very least all cattle farming, in order to achieve measurable CO2 reductions but just because an action won't make _immediate global impact _doesn't mean it shouldn't be done.


What I disagree with is the idea that it's realistic to aim for complete "self sufficiency" at any level other than a planetary one.
That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of things that could be more locally sourced than they are now. There are some things for which it makes sense and some things for which it doesn't.
And there seems to be a lot of fantasy about what it would actually involve to become truly "self sufficient" for food at an individual level.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 'put a bit of effort in'
> 
> Without a garden or an allotment?
> 
> I agree that we should have lots more allotments, but it is not within the power of those without allotments just to magic one up for themselves with 'a bit of effort'.



stop pretending to be the voice defending working class interests on this board because you are not. and stop imagining that people without the means cannot attain them through collective action. that's the whole fucking point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> What I disagree with is the idea that it's realistic to aim for complete "self sufficiency" at any level other than a planetary one.
> That doesn't mean that there aren't lots of things that could be more locally sourced than they are now. There are some things for which it makes sense and some things for which it doesn't.
> And there seems to be a lot of fantasy about what it would actually involve to become truly "self sufficient" for food at an individual level.


It's easy. Just needs a bit of _effort_.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

you liberal remainer wanker


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> stop pretending to be the voice defending working class interests on this board because you are not. and stop imagining that people without the means cannot attain them through collective action. that's the whole fucking point.


Well we can agree on that point. I would expect Teuchter agrees as well. But that doesn't put what you suggest within practical reach of the millions of people who do not own or rent any outdoor space.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> you liberal remainer wanker


You're the one telling people to grow their own food ffs. 

Clueless, class-free analysis._ That's liberal._


----------



## Flavour (Dec 23, 2020)

Yes only Liberal Democrats with double-barrelled surnames who live in Totnes can do that. Absolutely impossible for anyone else. Poor pathetic working classes, oh how we must pity them, with their impossibilities.

My grandfather, who was a single father to 3 daughters in the 1960s and worked as a teacher, shared allotment space with a bunch of other people in his community in Stoke-on-Trent and grew a significant proportion of their food. What a middle class wanker.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Well, in the short term it can't be worse than 'no deal,' but beyond that it's just a matter of how much lube they slap on the cock before we all get royally shafted.  There are no good outcomes any  more.


Who is the protagonist in this romance ?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Yes only Liberal Democrats with double-barrelled surnames who live in Totnes can do that. Absolutely impossible for anyone else. Poor pathetic working classes, oh how we must pity them, with their impossibilities.



I can see the point you are trying to make but think you are also guilty of making a similar broad brush assumption to that you are bemoaning.

Access to land to grow food.
The skills and time to grow it.

Two really important things anyone thinking of doing it needs. Many working class people don't have access to these vital things.

So whilst it's not impossible it certainly ain't that simple either.


----------



## Winot (Dec 23, 2020)

An end-of-year retrospective:


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

It seems (thanks google) that maybe about 0.25 acres is what you might need to be self sufficient in vegetables on an allotment basis. That's probably ignoring stuff like fertiliser. Per person. Take England. Population about 50 million. So, about 12.5 million acres of allotments needed. The total land area of England is about 30 million acres. So, more than 1/3 of the entire country would need to be allotments. London alone would need about 2 million acres of allotments, and the current area of London is about a third of a million acres, so all that would need to spread out around the edge. And all Londoners would need to get to their allotment and back every few days at least, to take care of it. It all sounds like it would work fine.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

That’s all fine and doable but what happens to everyone around the world who depends on selling vegetables to us?


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

i just want to know what percentage of the anchovies we get.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2020)

teuchter said:


> It seems (thanks google) that maybe about 0.25 acres is what you might need to be self sufficient in vegetables on an allotment basis. That's probably ignoring stuff like fertiliser. Per person. Take England. Population about 50 million. So, about 12.5 million acres of allotments needed. The total land area of England is about 30 million acres. So, more than 1/3 of the entire country would need to be allotments. London alone would need about 2 million acres of allotments, and the current area of London is about a third of a million acres, so all that would need to spread out around the edge. And all Londoners would need to get to their allotment and back every few days at least, to take care of it. It all sounds like it would work fine.



I have a big enough garden and have a section that I use to grow food. It is a lot of work, learning and effort.  Can you imagine the green belt being divided up into allotments? Every single 'Disgusted of not London' would be furious!


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 23, 2020)

Good news about a deal (if signed) but would it have played out differently without Covid? I say "Good news" in the very limited sense of where we are.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Just back from the supermarket. Fresh produce shelves totally bare aside from a few potatoes, onions and sprouts. Only meat left was a handful of the most expensive cuts. So steak and bubble and squeak it is?


----------



## Badgers (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just back from the supermarket. Fresh produce shelves totally bare aside from a few potatoes, onions and sprouts. Only meat left was a handful of the most expensive cuts. So steak and bubble and squeak it is?


It is what your username would have wanted


----------



## teuchter (Dec 23, 2020)

The local supermarkets in my bit of south london were exactly like normal when I went out about an hour or two ago.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Farage is pissed off. Tweeting about why would you do a deal with 'people who hate us' and if Johnson had courage he'd have gone for No Deal etc.
No Deal may have been a horrible shitshow but would have made it easier to peddle the idea that there was a perfect brexit which might have been achieved, where we got to have all of the anchovies. The deal whatever it is makes brexit boring and real, it kills the big emotive idea, all thats left is procedure.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 23, 2020)

Went to my local Lidl earlier. Fully stocked.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So steak and bubble and squeak it is?



Now you are just proving Flavour right with your fancy, hipster, pop up takeaway menu!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 23, 2020)

Badgers said:


> It is what your username would have wanted


I didn't buy the steak. I was tempted. I really like bubble and squeak, and I did buy sprouts and spuds, so that might be tomorrow's first day off work treat breakfast. 

Will try again tomorrow and see if they've had a delivery yet.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2020)

Farage is a cunt. Let's always remember that.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I did buy sprouts and spuds, so that might be tomorrow's first day off work treat breakfast.


 Actual LOL


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 23, 2020)

bimble said:


> Who is the protagonist in this romance ?



Pretty much everyone tbf - the Tories, the EU, potentially the USA, and so on.


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)

Is the Festival of Brexit going to be on zoom now?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 23, 2020)

Surely life isn’t just about surviving on a variety of fucking allotment tubers? The direction of this thread shows how divided we are and barring a popular revolution and show trials, how unlikely we are to reach any kind of scabbing of this open wound. Another decade of  corrupt smirking filth at the helm. At least


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 23, 2020)

Etc


----------



## bimble (Dec 23, 2020)




----------



## editor (Dec 23, 2020)

More wonderful news being delivered by Brexit:

"British travellers look set to lose their right to free medical treatment in Europe after nearly 50 years"

Well done to everyone who supported Brexit and continues to insist that it was a great idea!









						Only EU citizens who live in the UK will keep reciprocal health care after Brexit
					

Exclusive: British travellers look set to lose their right to free medical treatment in Europe after nearly 50 years




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

editor said:


> More wonderful news being delivered by Brexit:
> 
> "British travellers look set to lose their right to free medical treatment in Europe after nearly 50 years"
> 
> ...


Cost burden shifted from the state to the individual via insurance policies from the Tories' fincapcorp mates.
Classic accelerated transfer of wealth from labour to capital of the neoliberal, consolidator state.
Taking back control, you see?
They just didn't say who was taking it.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Surely life isn’t just about surviving on a variety of fucking allotment tubers


I was thinking more kale and other winter greens. 

And yes, self sufficiency isn't possible but if the government had dropped off a few bags of compost and some seeds at the house of everyone with a garden and tried to expand the allotment system a bit then it would have provided a line of defense against food shortages as well as perhaps clarifying in the minds of the populace what breaking out biggest trade relationship might actually involve. It happened in ww2 and it might jar with modern expectations but it would have been a very sensible thing to do.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just back from the supermarket. Fresh produce shelves totally bare aside from a few potatoes, onions and sprouts. Only meat left was a handful of the most expensive cuts. So steak and bubble and squeak it is?


I was in Lidl (again) today and it was fully stocked with fruit and veg salads etc. No goose though.


----------



## maomao (Dec 23, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I was in Lidl (again) today and it was fully stocked with fruit and veg salads etc. No goose though.


There's loads in my local park.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 23, 2020)

maomao said:


> There's loads in my local park.


Can you imagine the palarvar?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2020)

editor said:


> More wonderful news being delivered by Brexit:
> 
> "British travellers look set to lose their right to free medical treatment in Europe after nearly 50 years"
> 
> ...


There’s talk of Portugal producing its own health card for British tourists .


----------



## weltweit (Dec 23, 2020)

An article on Fishing and the negotiations.
Includes a nice chart of UK fishing waters. 

Fishing: Why is fishing important in Brexit trade talks? - BBC News


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 23, 2020)

That’s a very useful summary .


----------



## Badgers (Dec 23, 2020)




----------



## Badgers (Dec 23, 2020)

Been a long week


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

On ITV Peston explaining the deal he’s spent weeks saying can’t happen.


----------



## agricola (Dec 23, 2020)

editor said:


> More wonderful news being delivered by Brexit:
> 
> "British travellers look set to lose their right to free medical treatment in Europe after nearly 50 years"
> 
> ...



some elite negotiating that


----------



## brogdale (Dec 23, 2020)

Cabinet “meeting” on- going; gotta wonder if they’ll all be in a fit state this late into the quaffing?


----------



## gosub (Dec 23, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Cabinet “meeting” on- going; gotta wonder if they’ll all be in a fit state this late into the quaffing?



It has the real feel of small print that is n't going to be liked. However, I think thems that would argue better off with no deal are a spent force. Or I hope so this thing has still got get through a fair few parliaments yet


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Wouldn’t be surprised if Johnson dresses up as Santa for his miraculous Xmas eve announcement.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 24, 2020)

This is the Express headline "*Brexiteer warns 'omens are not good' as he exposes Boris's impending Brexit deal stitch-up**"*

It makes me laugh that these twats like Farage are never happy. They got what they wanted but they're still moaning. The above is from MEP Ben Habib. The only plus is that you'd hope that their voices will become less and less listened to as Britain accepts where we are and says "yeah, Brexit , we did that, now shut up!!"


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

8am press conference expected apparently. The hair will be extra good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> 8am press conference expected apparently. The hair will be extra good.


Go back to bed and get up round ten


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

DJWrongspeed said:


> This is the Express headline "*Brexiteer warns 'omens are not good' as he exposes Boris's impending Brexit deal stitch-up**"*
> 
> It makes me laugh that these twats like Farage are never happy. They got what they wanted but they're still moaning. The above is front MEP Ben Habib. The only plus is that you'd hope that their voices will become less and less listened to as Britain accepts where we are and says "yeah, Brexit , we did that, now shut up!!"



It doesn't make me laugh, it's extremely annoying. Not least because it's all calculated to maintain their influence in the lowest-effort way possible: by making angry, miserable people angry and miserable.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Kind of hoping the the suprastate let the cunt have his gift to the nation from the ‘saviour’ moment on the sunlit uplands, then turn around and say they’ve had a little think about it and decided to change a few bits in a specific and limited sort of way, like.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Wouldn’t be surprised if Johnson dresses up as Santa for his miraculous Xmas eve announcement.


Ffs.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Ffs.
> View attachment 245053


Urgh...spoiler bar might improve that?


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 24, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> It doesn't make me laugh, it's extremely annoying. Not least because it's all calculated to maintain their influence in the lowest-effort way possible: by making angry, miserable people angry and miserable.



Depressing, isn't it. especially the fact that those who've been pushing for the hardest of breaks with the EU are likely to have got most of what they've wanted, and they're _still_ going to whinge about it!

No-one is going to be satisfied with the deal, though, and least of all the Tory right / ERG clowns, who I reckon will start pushing in January to get parts of it repudiated or renegotiated.  This is only the start...


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Any deal was going to be an affront to them, the Farage ERG lot, because a deal is obviously a compromise, it's something real not a stupid fantasy about bestriding the globe in a union jack hat. I think this is the end of brexit & all who sail in her as any sort of powerful force. They won, they won't get over it, but they will be mostly irrelevant now, a spent force.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

As an extra little festive titbit around this joyous event, I noticed that press releases from the ERG last night were issued in the name of Mark Gino Francois.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Any deal was going to be an affront to them, the Farage ERG lot, because a deal is obviously a compromise, it's something real not a stupid fantasy about bestriding the globe in a union jack hat. I think this is the end of brexit & all who sail in her as any sort of powerful force. They won, they won't get over it, but they will be mostly irrelevant now, a spent force.



More like because it won't immediately tank the pound and let them all cash out.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

that too. I'm not celebrating anything but at a time as thoroughly shit as this it counts as good news that the worst people are really pissed off.


----------



## agricola (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> As an extra little festive titbit around this joyous event, I noticed that press releases from the ERG last night were issued in the name of Mark Gino Francois.



its like one of those heartwarming videos where a soldier or sailor comes back and surprises his or her family at Christmas, except with horror and vomit


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

Await the details but
Looks like full access to the common market + zero tariffs (aside from new bureaucratic costs) + sovereignty + points based migration + a few more fish: surely a massive victory for the Faragists. A massive victory for Lexiters too? Avoided the EU Labyrinth and BINOs? Answers on a postcard please.

Tariff disputes will be sure to come up as "standards deviate", but that's for another day i guess.

Cost: a step closer to breaking up of the union + end of freedom of movement in both directions + additional intercontinental bureaucracy/costs + some people living in Europe might find themselves made illegal + energising a new wave of Nationalist forces in the UK + Brexit sunk Corbyn

<fair summary?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 24, 2020)

Well, Lexiteers can't have a massive victory because Lexit's not a thing.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

bloody hell, radio news says they spent the night discussing various types of fish.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> bloody hell, radio news says they spent the night discussing various types of fish.


Really hope they got round to the tasselled wobbegong


----------



## cupid_stunt (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> bloody hell, radio news says they spent the night discussing various types of fish.



Then the gave up, and ordered pizza instead, once everyone agreed to no pineapple.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Go back to bed and get up round ten


or maybe 7pm


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Staines pumping the sort of _2 World Wars & 1 World Cup _bollocks we're gonna be fed all day today and thereafter until 2024.


----------



## tommers (Dec 24, 2020)

Oh god.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Well, Lexiteers can't have a massive victory because Lexit's not a thing.


Thats not  true


----------



## teuchter (Dec 24, 2020)

I'd like to give some respect to TopCat as pretty much the only one of urban75's lexiteers who hasn't gone into hiding over the past few weeks.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

The whole country is weary of this. They will almost certainly support the deal no matter what's in it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> or maybe 7pm


10pm


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The whole country is weary of this. They will almost certainly support the deal no matter what's in it.


Well yeah; scare the bejesus out of the population with apocalyptic visions and, of course, they'll buy the lesser shitshow. Almost like that was the "strategy" all along?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The whole country is weary of this. They will almost certainly support the deal no matter what's in it.


Only no one will ask them as we all know no further uk-wide referenda will ever be held


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well yeah; scare the bejesus out of the population with apocalyptic visions and, of course, they'll buy the lesser shitshow. Almost like that was the "strategy" all along?


The apocalypsists of the erg will demand meltdown

So will sir shit stirrer abstain and have fun watching the Tories knife each other?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The apocalypsists of the erg will demand meltdown


They can demand what the fuck they want; Johnson knows he has the 'left' party of capital in his pocket on this.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The whole country is weary of this. They will almost certainly support the deal no matter what's in it.



The SNP won't. They want to use Brexit as leverage to promote independence, regardless of the details.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well yeah; scare the bejesus out of the population with apocalyptic visions and, of course, they'll buy the lesser shitshow. Almost like that was the "strategy" all along?


The visions of the apocalypse have generally come from remainers and never looked likely, just scare stories to attach to anti brexit abuse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

philosophical will be disappointed if there's no mass starvation


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well yeah; scare the bejesus out of the population with apocalyptic visions and, of course, they'll buy the lesser shitshow. Almost like that was the "strategy" all along?


Its not a cover up, theyve delivered the key Brexit demands:
sovereignty
points based migration
w full access to the common market + zero tariffs (aside from new bureaucratic costs)


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> The SNP won't. They want to use Brexit as leverage to promote independence, regardless of the details.


They are a different country.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> They are a different country.



Pretty sure this Brexit deal applies to the UK, not just England.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Its not a cover up, theyve delivered the key Brexit demands:
> sovereignty
> points based migration
> w full access to the common market + zero tariffs (aside from new bureaucratic costs)


So why haven't they had the conference to proclaim victory?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Pretty sure this Brexit deal applies to the UK, not just England.


Yeah but i only referred to England.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The visions of the apocalypse have generally come from remainers and never looked likely, just scare stories to attach to anti brexit abuse.


Wherever they've come from they've worked for these purposes of the Johnson regime; gratitude now guaranteed.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> So why haven't they had the conference to proclaim victory?


Last minute trickery from Macron?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> So why haven't they had the conference to proclaim victory?


Because they’re still haggling over the anchovy harvest.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Wherever they've come from they've worked for these purposes of the Johnson regime; gratitude now guaranteed.


Remainers did  so much to get us to where we are.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Thats not  true


If you live your life one context-free freeze frame at a time, then I can absolutely see that Lexit is real and a success, in the same way that, say, the hijacking of United 93 on the morning of September 11, 2001 was a big win for anyone who'd always wanted a go on an airline drinks cart.

Otherwise, not a thing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers did  so much to get us to where we are.


On the verge of a new relationship with the eu


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers did  so much to get us to where we are.


Personally, I blame any of the 51% of the population that joined in with the fucking stupid tory referendum.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers did  so much to get us to where we are.


Are you not happy with the outcome?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Are you not happy with the outcome?


Not seen any finalised deal let alone any detail.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not seen any finalised deal let alone any detail.


Do you have a clear idea of what would make you be happy / not with the terms of the deal , like what % of what types of fish etc?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Do you have a clear idea of what would make you be happy / not with the terms of the deal , like what % of what types of fish etc?


Asking the likes of me questions can be problematic.


----------



## Winot (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers did  so much to get us to where we are.



You won - get over it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Personally, I blame any of the 51% of the population that joined in with the fucking stupid tory referendum.


The turnout apparently 72.2%, 46.5m.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

If we have won more than 26% of the 2027 anchovy harvest I’ll go outside and sing rule Britannia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Do you have a clear idea of what would make you be happy / not with the terms of the deal , like what % of what types of fish etc?


Everything makes TopCat happy or not happy


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> If we have won more than 26% of the 2027 anchovy harvest I’ll go outside and sing rule Britannia.


We have won 100% of the UK's share of the anchovy harvest so pop outside now and sing


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Everything makes TopCat happy or not happy


Well, some things seem to make TopCat cross, like certain fruits.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Staines pumping the sort of _2 World Wars & 1 World Cup _bollocks we're gonna be fed all day today and thereafter until 2024.
> 
> View attachment 245070




Next crisis in 3...2...1...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Well, some things seem to make TopCat cross, like certain fruits.


Yes those are the things that make him unhappy. But 100% of everything either makes him happy or unhappy apart from slavoj zizek who he just finds boring


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

Details of the level playing field bit are going to be interesting...what happens re state aid for example? Sounds like its been kicked down the road for future court cases


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

So basically everything is a bit worse than it was. 

We lose free movement. We lose free EU healthcare. People from the EU lose that here as well. 

Businesses don't have tariffs but have a whole bunch of new bureaucratic hoops to jump through. Vets are going to be busy. As are lawyers and accountants. 

It's what used to be called 'hard brexit'. New borders for people but not so much for things. Victory of sorts to capital. Defeat for people.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

the deal will be shite and we have to to deal with a grinning johnson later today


can someone give him the new strain of covid the moment he hangs up on the phone with the eu


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> We have won 100% of the UK's share of the anchovy harvest so pop outside now and sing


Think that might be optimistic.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Is it actually happening that the content of the deal has been leaked to guido faulks and that’s where all the info is coming from.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Raheem said:


> Think that might be optimistic.


Yeh I'm not sure what bimble's voice sounds like


----------



## Winot (Dec 24, 2020)

Free movement of goods (in which the EU has a surplus). No deal on services (in which the UK has a surplus).


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I'm not sure what bimble's voice sounds like


Quite bad, fortunately I have no immediate neighbours.


----------



## Winot (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it actually happening that the content of the deal has been leaked to guido faulks and that’s where all the info is coming from.



Only the bits they want the ERG to read.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Quite bad, fortunately I have no immediate neighbours.


Go and sing right outside the house of that utter shit who left his dog


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Winot said:


> Only the bits they want the ERG to read.


The one-syllable words for the conservative cro-magnons


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Well yeah; scare the bejesus out of the population with apocalyptic visions and, of course, they'll buy the lesser shitshow. Almost like that was the "strategy" all along?


On these boards the apocalyptic visions have come from continuity remain to be fair.


----------



## agricola (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Staines pumping the sort of _2 World Wars & 1 World Cup _bollocks we're gonna be fed all day today and thereafter until 2024.
> 
> View attachment 245070



"we won the possession"


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

agricola said:


> "we won the possession"


And of course Johnson can point to the victory in portsmouth


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

Disaster version was for No Deal, which isnt happening so we'll never know


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Disaster version was for No Deal, which isnt happening so we'll never know


Let's wait till the deal is confirmed before writing off no deal


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it actually happening that the content of the deal has been leaked to guido faulks and that’s where all the info is coming from.





Bits of it seem to be disappearing already...


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 24, 2020)

Plucky Boris, skilfully negotiating us into a world beating position of being worse off than we were before.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Bits of it seem to be disappearing already...



Like the memory of a dream


----------



## agricola (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And of course Johnson can point to the victory in portsmouth



or the _Victoire_, as it will now be patriotically known under this deal


----------



## Flavour (Dec 24, 2020)

I think one of the hopes for left-leavers was for this to weaken the EU and threaten its existence, which, while impossible to rule out, does not seem imminent. There are voices clamoring for their own exit in almost every member state but generally tiny minority and largely fash. The human rights situation with Poland and Hungary seems just as much of an existential crisis for the EU as brexit, if not more. The potential banking collapses in Italy (a sword of damocles hanging over Europe for many many years and far from resolved) would also pose a much more serious threat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Plucky Boris, skilfully negotiating us into a world beating position of being worse off than we were before.


Until he is dead and his body consumed by penguins no one will ever be sure that he won't again repeat this amazing success


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Bits of it seem to be disappearing already...




All of it seems to have disappeared now. Is there a screenshot?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I think one of the hopes for left-leavers was for this to weaken the EU and threaten its existence, which, while impossible to rule out, does not seem imminent. There are voices clamoring for their own exit in almost every member state but generally tiny minority and largely fash. The human rights situation with Poland and Hungary seems just as much of an existential crisis for the EU as brexit, if not more. The potential banking collapses in Italy (a sword of damocles hanging over Europe for many many years and far from resolved) would also pose a much more serious threat.


Other countries’ interest in leaving the EU has dropped across the board I thought, over the years of watching things play out here. That might change again once we are ‘prospering mightily’ but for now the block looks stronger without the uk in it.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 24, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Pretty sure this Brexit deal applies to the UK, not just England.


Have you seen any details?
Do you think Northern Ireland will be treated the same as another part of the UK like Dorset.
There are some long standing technical details regarding stuff in and out of Northern Ireland do you imagine just those things continue as before, and otherwise for Northern Ireland things will be exactly the same for the rest of the UK?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Other countries’ interest in leaving the EU has dropped across the board I thought, over the years of watching things play out here. That might change again once we are ‘prospering mightily’ but for now the block looks stronger without the uk in it.


We will be forever known as plague island


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 24, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Have you seen any details?
> Do you think Northern Ireland will be treated the same as another part of the UK like Dorset.
> There are some long standing technical details regarding stuff in and out of Northern Ireland do you imagine just those things continue as before, and otherwise for Northern Ireland things will be exactly the same for the rest of the UK?



Of course not, I was simpy highlighting that the deal affects the whole UK not just England, in reference to a post which claimed the "whole country" would support the deal.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The turnout apparently 72.2%, 46.5m.


Of those registered to vote, yes; that's some 51% of the population.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Of those registered to vote, yes; that's some 51% of the population.


What do you think the population of the UK is?

Official stats have it round 66.7m, where are the other 25+m?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

A bit of detail here, but still all from that document with ‘we won’ written all over it.








						Boris Johnson to claim victory in Brexit talks, leaked paper reveals
					

Document drafted in attempt to sell deal to Brexiter MPs suggests PM’s negotiators got their way on 43% of key issues




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 24, 2020)

teuchter said:


> I'd like to give some respect to TopCat as pretty much the only one of urban75's lexiteers who hasn't gone into hiding over the past few weeks.



I can’t speak for other supporters of ‘Leave’ but there’s really nothing to have gone into hiding about. Firstly, the political decision to support exit from a dying neo-liberal trading bloc was correct both as a matter of political economy and in terms of being on the same side of the debate as the working class. Nothing has or will change in that respect. Secondly, in respect of a ‘deal’ it was an inevitability. Most of the speculation and so on we’ve seen on this thread is mainly coming from continuity remain and adds nothing to the teleological currents that gave rise to the vote.

While I’m here I’ve just been been sent a copy of Perry Anderson’s LRB article - now that is worth discussing....









						Perry Anderson · Ever Closer Union? · LRB 7 January 2021
					

Can democracy, sovereignty and globalisation be happily combined? What American examples show is that European elites...




					www.lrb.co.uk


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The whole country is weary of this. They will almost certainly support the deal no matter what's in it.



I'm reminded of this line from Heller's Catch-22:

"The alternative, and there was an alternative of course, was to starve."


----------



## Lurdan (Dec 24, 2020)

two sheds said:


> All of it seems to have disappeared now. Is there a screenshot?


That twitter thread is currently archived here 









						Thread by @SamuelMarcLowe on Thread Reader App
					

Thread by @SamuelMarcLowe: This is the UK’s internal “who won the negotiations scorecard”, apparently. (via @EuroGuido): scribd.com/document/48904… On rules of origin, suggests that compromise found on batteries an...…




					threadreaderapp.com


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> in respect of a ‘deal’ it was an inevitability


is this outcome what you voted for - are you satisfied, all things considered?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 24, 2020)

I thought the impetus to support exit was about nationalism.
There are implications associated with the concept of nationalism.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

Any deal that ensures Spanish lettuces in UK supermarkets in the winter months has to be a good result imo


----------



## teuchter (Dec 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can’t speak for other supporters of ‘Leave’ but there’s really nothing to have gone into hiding about.


I wonder why the notable silence, compared to a year or two ago, then.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

That scorecard is propagandistic shite on the whole.  

ETA. No fucking rigour or objectivity


----------



## Maltin (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you think the population of the UK is?
> 
> Official stats have it round 66.7m, where are the other 25+m?


46 million did not vote. Only 72% of those voted, about 33m, being less than 50% of the total population.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 24, 2020)

It really sums up these arseholes doesn’t it? It’s not about negotiating what’s best or finding a compromise, it’s just a game, a contest to be “won”. Public schoolboy cunts playing a rugby match with peoples lives.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 24, 2020)

And what happened to "leave fight transform"? 









						Leave - Fight - Transform
					

Follow My Blog Get new content delivered directly to your inbox.




					leftcampaign.org
				




We left a year ago. Then silence. Where is the fighting and transforming?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Maltin said:


> 46 million did not vote. Only 72% of those voted, about 33m, being less than 50% of the total population.


Good point well made


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Maltin said:


> 46 million did not vote. Only 72% of those voted, about 33m, being less than 50% of the total population.


However as I pointed out during the ref campaign there was precedent enacting the result in a 50/50 split on a 50% of the electorate, namely the Welsh devolution referendum. So the stupidity remains in enacting change on a major constitutional issue on an insubstantial margin.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Apparently the stars are right
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That may well be true, but he had better get a move on, as his status as a potential immigrant may well change after the transition period ends. Furthermore the precise location of sunken R'lyeh could lead to territorial waters disputes, especially regarding fishing quotas.


----------



## A380 (Dec 24, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> It really sums up these arseholes doesn’t it? It’s not about negotiating what’s best or finding a compromise, it’s just a game, a contest to be “won”. Public schoolboy cunts playing a rugby match with peoples lives.



I bet none of the current cabinet played rugby at school. It requires a modicum of courage and (unless playing for Saracens*) a sense of honour to abide by the laws or the game doesn’t work). They’d have got a note from their nanny. 



Knocking over 10 year olds is more their style.




* spoken as a Saries fan


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

The thread is transforming into The Brexit Re-enactment Society


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Let's wait till the deal is confirmed before writing off no deal


There's no chance of no deal now. It would take something totally unexpected, like Johnson starting to deny having agreed to things that are in the agreement.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Raheem said:


> There's no chance of no deal now. It would take something totally unexpected, like Johnson starting to deny having agreed to things that are in the agreement.


I'll say one thing for Boris Johnson, his incompetence never fails to astound

He is proof of that adage attributed to Einstein that the difference between genius and stupidity is that genius has its limits


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Can’t believe I fell for the 8am press conference idea from Laura kuensberg’s tweeting. Just shows that the compulsion to promise things you think people will like to hear is what they do to everyone.
“Some hours” left to run now apparently.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What do you think the population of the UK is?
> 
> Official stats have it round 66.7m, where are the other 25+m?


Put the sherry down for a mo..... 

My workings:-



as a % of:



means that 51.15% of the (then) UK population engaged with the referendum.

Sherry can now be picked up again!


----------



## weltweit (Dec 24, 2020)

Whatever the deal is you can be sure the tory ERG types will moan loudly..


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> That may well be true, but he had better get a move on, as his status as a potential immigrant may well change after the transition period ends. Furthermore the precise location of sunken R'lyeh could lead to territorial waters disputes, especially regarding fishing quotas.


I should have added that I am not a trained lawyer and I would recommend that Great Cthulhu obtain proper legal advice.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

That'll be courtesy of Starmer's LP vote?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Sherry can now be picked up again!


I thought we were clear at the outset: No sherry-picking!


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Everyone’s a winner, great news.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 24, 2020)

The provisional agreement is apparently 2,000 pages.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Very good for lawyers, is brexit.

A golden era for bureaucrats.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Very good for lawyers, is brexit.
> 
> A golden era for bureaucrats.


There speaks a man who hasn't paid attention to the government's proposals for its bureaucrats


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 245108
> 
> View attachment 245109
> 
> Everyone’s a winner, great news.



Piscine our time.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> There speaks a man who hasn't paid attention to the government's proposals for its bureaucrats


They will work from home in Eastern Europe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> The provisional agreement is apparently 2,000 pages.


1,998 of them the EU's mocking laughter at the roast beef-eating surrender monkeys


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Can’t believe I fell for the 8am press conference idea from Laura kuensberg’s tweeting. Just shows that the compulsion to promise things you think people will like to hear is what they do to everyone.
> “Some hours” left to run now apparently.


Haha


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> View attachment 245108
> 
> View attachment 245109
> 
> Everyone’s a winner, great news.




Not the fish.  Somehow I don’t get the feeling that we will be entering a new era of enforced stock management and conservation. The free market will finish off whatever is left now they are unleashed. Limpets are the new cockles


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 245100
> 
> That'll be courtesy of Starmer's LP vote?


Is he advocating no deal now ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Not the fish


The fish always suffer


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 24, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I can’t speak for other supporters of ‘Leave’ but there’s really nothing to have gone into hiding about. Firstly, the political decision to support exit from a dying neo-liberal trading bloc was correct both as a matter of political economy and in terms of being on the same side of the debate as the working class. Nothing has or will change in that respect. Secondly, in respect of a ‘deal’ it was an inevitability. Most of the speculation and so on we’ve seen on this thread is mainly coming from continuity remain and adds nothing to the teleological currents that gave rise to the vote.
> 
> While I’m here I’ve just been been sent a copy of Perry Anderson’s LRB article - now that is worth discussing....
> 
> ...




Looks interesting but its behind a paywall.


----------



## gosub (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Other countries’ interest in leaving the EU has dropped across the board I thought, over the years of watching things play out here. That might change again once we are ‘prospering mightily’ but for now the block looks stronger without the uk in it.



Only on Brexit. They've got major un resolved issues regrding the EUro and fiscal structure/mechanisms. The Covid reboot will bring them into sharp contrast..


I know you were being sarcastic, and somebody else  but as saying we've negotiated a worse position. But I think it is like that.  Say we got on a train coz you wanted to to Liverpool, it's a nice warm train and the passengers staff reasonably convivial, but it becomes apparent the train is going to Edinburgh....  We got off the train and are standing on a cold platform in the middle of nowwhere....Yes its cold and uncomfortable but were no longer headed towards a destination which we didn't want to go.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

gosub said:


> Only on Brexit. They've got major un resolved issues regrding the EUro and fiscal structure/mechanisms. The Covid reboot will bring them into sharp contrast..
> 
> 
> I know you were being sarcastic, and somebody else  but as saying we've negotiated a worse position. But I think it is like that.  Say we got on a train coz you wanted to to Liverpool, it's a nice warm train and the passengers staff reasonably convivial, but it becomes apparent the train is going to Edinburgh....  We got off the train and are standing on a cold platform in the middle of nowwhere....Yes its cold and uncomfortable but were no longer headed towards a destination which we didn't want to go.


Only time will tell I suppose, whether Edinburgh is a worse place to be than liverpool. I find it hard to imagine that ten years from now it would seem preferable for most of the inhabitants of the EU to be 28 countries all fending for themselves. Maybe the whole thing will fail, and the uK will have dodged some kind of train crash. tbh I’ve never understood the Euro, how that makes sense, and still don’t.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

gosub said:


> Only on Brexit. They've got major un resolved issues regrding the EUro and fiscal structure/mechanisms. The Covid reboot will bring them into sharp contrast..
> 
> 
> I know you were being sarcastic, and somebody else  but as saying we've negotiated a worse position. But I think it is like that.  Say we got on a train coz you wanted to to Liverpool, it's a nice warm train and the passengers staff reasonably convivial, but it becomes apparent the train is going to Edinburgh....  We got off the train and are standing on a cold platform in the middle of nowwhere....Yes its cold and uncomfortable but were no longer headed towards a destination which we didn't want to go.


No offence, but that is a crap analogy. No-one ever asked me if I wanted to go to Liverpool in the first place. No-one asked me where I wanted to get off the train in the meantime. And anyway, lots of the other passengers were going to other destinations.
(Actually we were going to go on holiday to Liverpool in March, but cancelled because of Covid)


----------



## mauvais (Dec 24, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Piscine our time.


Safer to go with, 'pêche in our time'. Piscine might mean 'of fish' to you but I think you might want to check the contract again to see if there's anything about regular maintenance of the filter.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 24, 2020)

So, was the plan all along, play chicken until the last minute then celebrate any old shit deal as 'victory', or was it 'Go for "defiant" no deal... but ooohh shit... things are looking really bad better make any old shit deal'?

Or more likely there was never plan, let's face it.

I will be pleased that there is some kind of deal, which might at least avoid some of the shorter-term pain a No Deal would have causes. I will not ever be fucking 'grateful' for the achievement of swapping a pretty good deal for a more shit one just to solve an intra-Tory fracas.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Victory parade at 3pm apparently.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

It’s done. Apparently. Standing by for brass bands and confetti at press conference.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

3 wise men presser, to just our saviour on his own?


----------



## pinkmonkey (Dec 24, 2020)

Thank fuck for that.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Victory parade at 3pm apparently.


Hopefully not a victory parade ..

My opinion of Ursula Von Der Leyen increased a great deal when I heard her saying that she was working to make an agreement with an old and valued friend. 

A viable agreement will be a win win for both parties. 

There does not have to be a victor, or a loser.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> Hopefully not a victory parade ..
> 
> My opinion of Ursula Von Der Leyen increased a great deal when I heard her saying that she was working to make an agreement with an old and valued friend.
> 
> ...


Earwig oh...they'r already campaigning for 2024...


> Everything that the British public was promised during the 2016 referendum and in the general election last year is delivered by this deal. We have taken back control of our money, borders, laws, trade and our fishing waters.


----------



## Anju (Dec 24, 2020)

So our greatest negotiating victory after 4 years is reducing the fishing quota transition period from 6 to 5.5 years. Fanfuckingtastic!


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 24, 2020)

"We have delivered this great deal for the entire United Kingdom in record time." 

I guess since nobody's negotiated an exit from the EU before, 4.5 year is technically a record - maybe Johnson will run with the idea and say nobody's ever negotiated a better exit deal, and polls show the public have never been happier about one.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

They’re going to interrupt Cars 3 for this ?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

weltweit said:


> There does not have to be a victor, or a loser.



Looks like CCHQ think differently.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2020)

Border is down the Irish Sea? Do we know what happens with imports to NI coming in through other ports/airports?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Worth listening to Ursula v-L’s explanation of what went on before we hear Johnson’s braying about his heroic victory.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Looks like CCHQ think differently.
> 
> View attachment 245116



“Killed yer Nan”


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Unlikely to be any triumphalism from Johnson, I'd have thought?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

4 flags


----------



## Winot (Dec 24, 2020)

Winot said:


> Why not just sign up for a rolling deal with a review date every couple of years to decide whether to continue or renegotiate?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Every jot and tittle. Did he really just say that.


----------



## neonwilderness (Dec 24, 2020)

1/6th more fish in five years time?

Well worth all the hassle


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 24, 2020)

I've never understood why they treat the "up all night" stuff as evidence they are working really hard. Why would we want the future of the country to be decided by a bunch of people who haven't had enough sleep?


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 4 flags



white ones


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Is it a cartoon lion on the backdrop behind him?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 24, 2020)

Holy shit, that was actually a pretty good question from Kuenssberg, proper flummoxed the dickhead.

Aaaaaand now Peston; much like the grid sees a surge at half time when everyone sticks the kettle on, I bet there's the same surge when Peston starts his 'question'.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

So the UK has negotiated getting it's fish back in 5 1/2 years' time, which will be reviewed in 4 years' time.


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 24, 2020)

So are they going to repurpose the Farage Garage ?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

I can’t believe he just made fun of this country’s “fish fanatics”.


----------



## Supine (Dec 24, 2020)

Johnson thinks this is his finest moment. The dick.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 24, 2020)

Weird how he seems to think he's going to escape the beatings.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Supine said:


> Johnson thinks this is his finest moment. The dick.


He's so shit at this that he's fluffed the moment; he could have tried to sell this and his success in terms that would engage the red-wallers...instead he was boring, incomprehensible and glib.

No hand of history here.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Fucking obsessed.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

That face he does when he’s lying it was on pretty much the whole time when trying to say good things about the content of the deal. Ursula Vdl looked immensely more like a person who’se genuinely quite proud of what they’ve got out of the wrangling.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> That face he does when he’s lying it was on pretty much the whole time when trying to say good things about the content of the deal.


It's the only face he's got


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Fucking obsessed.
> 
> View attachment 245124


Should be fed to the fishes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Weird how he seems to think he's going to escape the beatings.
> 
> View attachment 245122


He'll never forget the bastinado


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 24, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Looks interesting but its behind a paywall.


Let me try to paste it up here


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

Fish
Fish
Fish
Fish
Fuck all else


----------



## weltweit (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Fish
> Fish
> Fish
> Fish
> Fuck all else


Did I forget to mention that Barnier is a former French fishing minister?


----------



## Cloo (Dec 24, 2020)

So Johnson thinks there will be 'less red tape' - not quite sure how that works.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 24, 2020)

Cloo said:


> So Johnson thinks there will be 'less red tape' - not quite sure how that works.



Blue now


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

What has actually changed then? We got a little more fish and everything is the same as before?


----------



## A380 (Dec 24, 2020)

I think he said that on 5.5 years we will increase control of out fish quotas from half to two thirds. I make that from 3/6 to 4/6? so a whole 1/6 improvement! Rejoice, just rejoice....


----------



## editor (Dec 24, 2020)

Once they factor in all the costs of all this extended fuckwit's farrago, we're still be billions in the red.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

Can we work and vist the EU as before?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> What has actually changed then? We got a little more fish and everything is the same as before?


No.
And no more fish till 2025, I think.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 24, 2020)

Edit: nevermind


----------



## Badgers (Dec 24, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> Actual LOL





two sheds said:


> Border is down the Irish Sea? Do we know what happens with imports to NI coming in through other ports/airports?


No border in the Irish Sea 
Virtually no change from NI-GB
Some changes to declarations from GB-NI


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

Just seen, cheers


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 24, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Holy shit, that was actually a pretty good question from Kuenssberg, proper flummoxed the dickhead.


What was it?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 24, 2020)

.. " P H H E E E U U U W W W W !! " 

 Was heard in Washington Tyne and Wear / Nissan


----------



## Lord Camomile (Dec 24, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> What was it?


Basically something along the lines of "what was the biggest thing both the UK and the EU had to give up in these negotiations?". There was genuinely a second or two of silence as Johnson couldn't work out how to answer


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Basically something along the lines of "what was the biggest thing both the UK and the EU had to give up in these negotiations?". There was genuinely a second or two of silence as Johnson couldn't work out how to answer


He was, I think, more riled by Peston's observation that he was wrong (lying) about the imposition of non-tariff barriers on goods & services and, in evading it, ended up doing a good impression of not knowing how to answer the question.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> No.View attachment 245128View attachment 245129
> And no more fish till 2025, I think.




Can you confirm that is the what this deal will mean? 

Or is this just speculation at this point?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

Lord Camomile said:


> Basically something along the lines of "what was the biggest thing both the UK and the EU had to give up in these negotiations?". There was genuinely a second or two of silence as Johnson couldn't work out how to answer



The biggest loss is the fact we're obliged to keep Kent.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The biggest loss is the fact we're obliged to keep Kent.


The biggest loss is we're obliged to keep Johnson


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Edit: nevermind


Nirvana have a lot to answer for


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> The biggest loss is the fact we're obliged to keep Kent.


Harsh.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

A thought for the thousands who've spent the last few years working to prepare for the No-Deal chimera of Johnson's negotiating stance.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

So, not abstaining this vote, then?


----------



## magneze (Dec 24, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Looks interesting but its behind a paywall.


A private browser window will get around the paywall.

The essay is long but worth reading through in full.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> What has actually changed then? We got a little more fish and everything is the same as before?


Have you just time travelled direct from 2016?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> What has actually changed then? We got a little more fish and everything is the same as before?



unless you are wealthy, then the fish are about it


----------



## Flavour (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> Can we work and vist the EU as before?



No


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So, not abstaining this vote, then?
> 
> View attachment 245138



Fucking over any potential attempts by Rees-Mogg and pals to derail this deal and force a crash out is really the only card he has to play here. As usual, whatever he does is just a minor move in a tory game with tory rules.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 24, 2020)

they have just got that twat farrage on the telly

i have turned the bloody thing off


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So, not abstaining this vote, then?
> 
> View attachment 245138


Sir shit stirrer will ruin anything Johnson doesn't fuck up


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> they have just got that twat farrage on the telly
> 
> i have turned the bloody thing off


Watching the snowman in protest


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> unless you are wealthy, then the fish are about it


Yeah. Sod all those wealthy Polish people coming over here taking our jobs.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> they have just got that twat farrage on the telly
> 
> i have turned the bloody thing off



and now the bell end boris

Throws stuff at telly


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> What has actually changed then? We got a little more fish and everything is the same as before?


Free trade in goods where the EU has a surplus, but not in services where it doesn’t. Border down the Irish Sea. Lots of red tape for exporters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fucking over any potential attempts by Rees-Mogg and pals to derail this deal and force a crash out is really the only card he has to play here. As usual, whatever he does is just a minor move in a tory game with tory rules.


Voting for the deal will come back to haunt them


It is another of their unfinest hours


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

So...in which order will the constituent nations of the presently existing UK rejoin the European supra-state?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So...in which order will the constituent nations of the presently existing UK rejoin the European supra-state?


They will be drawing lots at stormont on 5 January to determine the order of re-accession


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Lots of red tape for exporters.



every time i have to do an full export entry to paris/Brussels or dublin i'm going to be calling leaver voters wankers


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> every time i have to do an full export entry to paris/Brussels or dublin i'm going to be calling leaver voters wankers


And the rest of the time?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They will be drawing lots at stormont on 5 January to determine the order of re-accession


NI (as part of the expanded republic) before an independent Scotland?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> NI (as part of the expanded republic) before an independent Scotland?


The lot drawing ceremony will be conducted live at 6.30 on BBC 2


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> And the rest of the time?



tbf i've already suggesting taking down people name in my company who voted for brexit and make them stand out on the car park on jan 04th

so we can take turns throwing coins at them 

but it has not be taken up by the rest of the crew


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> tbf i've already suggesting taking down people name in my company who voted for brexit and make them stand out on the car park on jan 04th
> 
> so we can take turns throwing coins at them
> 
> but it has not be taken up by the rest of the crew


Throwing coins at leavers is like rewarding them for voting as they did


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

depends if you aiming at their heads at the time

and we would be using Euros


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Is there anybody in the land who will be really happy about the content of the deal ? Probably by it’s inevitable nature, not, so it’s finally brought unity in a sort of shit way.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Voting for the deal will come back to haunt them



So would anything else they might do. That's the problem with trying to be left-neoliberal, the fundamental contradiction at the core of your very being means that any arrow you throw can only return against you.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> So...in which order will the constituent nations of the presently existing UK rejoin the European supra-state?


NI first as it gets absorbed into Eire, then Scotland then the rest of rUK, I'm gonna to not go out on a limb (because I'll be dead or senile) and predict Irish re-unification in the mid-2030's, Scottish Independence around 2040 and the rUK rejoins the EU (if it's still called that) around 2045-2050


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> The lot drawing ceremony will be conducted live at 6.30 on BBC 2


Truly, the National lottery.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

teuchter said:


> Have you just time travelled direct from 2016?




Just checking what this deal actually means, I know the ramifications, just checking they are the same as before today.

This



And this



Are 100% True now? 


Fucking shame if they are. 


Just want confirmation.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 24, 2020)

Not sure this will go down well with all concerned?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Are roaming charges going to return?

Eta answer is yes unless your network chooses not to make money in that way.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not sure this will go down well with all concerned?
> 
> View attachment 245152


How much difference is that than before this deal? 

I've been in South Korea for the last 15 years and two years in Germany before that, so excuse my ignorance.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is there anybody in the land who will be really happy about the content of the deal ? Probably by it’s inevitable nature, not, so it’s finally brought unity in a sort of shit way.



There'll be a lot of general relief that we're not going to starve in the immediate future, followed by a long drawn-out period of wondering why exactly we bothered with any of this. It's going to be impossible to tell the economic consequences of this apart from the economic consequences of Johnson's other pet project of turning the UK into Europe's finest covid-19 habitat, and these twin catastrophes will probably somehow intertwine in a way that gives Johnson enough excuses to drag his premiership on until 2024 because that's just the way things seem to work out these days.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> How much difference is that than before this deal?
> 
> I've been in South Korea for the last 15 years and two years in Germany before that, so excuse my ignorance.



its about half of what you could bring back before the deal

but they can waive their Black/Blue passports at the EU custom checks


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> How much difference is that than before this deal?
> 
> I've been in South Korea for the last 15 years and two years in Germany before that, so excuse my ignorance.


There were no limits before.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not sure this will go down well with all concerned?
> 
> View attachment 245152



What is a 'stick of tobacco for heating' if not a cigarette?


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> There were no limits before.



That isn't true, you couldn't just buy a million fags in Germany and bring them back to the UK before this deal.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 24, 2020)

The deal is no doubt gonna be shite, but surely better than no deal -  which is the outcome I was expecting. Seems that Macron may have given the Johnson government a taste of what could be with the border closure.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> That isn't true, you couldn't just buy a million fags in Germany and bring them back to the UK before this deal.


There wasn't a fixed, specific limit. 'for personal use' was the test, and that could include stocking up on booze for a party or buying a year's worth of baccy for yourself.


----------



## hash tag (Dec 24, 2020)

I imagine this is open to all as it was sent to me by my neighbouring MP.
Want to indicate which way to go Tooting Brexit Vote


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There wasn't a fixed, specific limit. 'for personal use' was the test, and that could include stocking up on booze for a party or buying a year's worth of baccy for yourself.



So, the 'for personal use' has gone, and the EU haven't even done this, the UK have done it to tax people more! HAhahaha. What a mess!


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Not sure this will go down well with all concerned?
> 
> View attachment 245152


!8 litres of wine should satisfy the posters on here who were concerned about their wine cellars if there was no deal.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Overview in here. 








						From tariffs to visas: here's what's in the Brexit deal
					

We take a look at the main agreements that make up the trade and security deal finalised on Christmas Eve




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

the rule of thumb was you were allowed to move as much personal use gear as you could justify if it had been subject to normal taxes in another EU country


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> the rule of thumb was you were allowed to move as much personal use gear as you could justify if it had been subject to normal taxes in another EU country



moving a trunk full of tobacco from Belgium to the UK would normally end up with you getting nicked mind


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

4 slabs of lager is a pitiful haul


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> 4 slabs of lager is a pitiful haul


it will offer oblivion for some hours from the horror of johnsonian britain


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> moving a trunk full of tobacco from Belgium to the UK would normally end up with you getting nicked mind






mx wcfc said:


> There were no limits before.



There wasn't a fixed, specific limit. 'for personal use' was the test, and that could include stocking up on booze for a party or buying a year's worth of baccy for yourself.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

no limits for personal consumption. applied to pretty much anything bought within the single market rea not just consumable alko and snout. but these were the ones with the greatest tax differential


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> no limits for personal consumption.



ask this policeman from kent

Six months for police sergeant who sold smuggled tobacco to officers


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

Bugger, really messing up this quoting thing


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Duty free limits for fags same as from most other countries now, I don’t know about the alcohol.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

So, basically things are the same as before then? 


What is this no limit for personal? 


Can anyone confirm this has 100% stopped now? 

There is now a set limit. 100%?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

now yer mainland snout limit is the same as it has been for the canaries


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> Duty free limits for fags same as from most other countries now, I don’t know about the alcohol.


 Same as the US? 200 and that is it, is now the same as France?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> Are you sure?


There wasn't a specific limit, but if they thought what you had was intended for sale, they could and would confiscate it. ie pretty much anything less than 'shitloads' was fine. Stocking up on dozens of pouches of baccy was ok. I did it many times. The Belgian exchequer did better out of me than the British one.

Of course a ton of smuggling also went on. I know of a few offies that used to do very good deals on smuggled cans of beer. There's a reason they were cheaper than supermarkets. But a van full of cans of lager was likely to be in trouble if stopped.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 24, 2020)

Is this deal likely to get through parliament? What do you all think?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Is this deal likely to get through parliament? What do you all think?


Yes.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> now yer mainland snout limit is the same as it has been for the canaries




So, it;s 3.30 am here is SK, so my typing isn't great, but 


Before this deal I could take 10,000 fags to the UK and get no stops if I walk through customs ~~

and 

Now, I can only take 200? 

Or has it always been 200?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Is this deal likely to get through parliament? What do you all think?




its this or no deal

don't see labour throwing a spanner in the works

and even the headbangers in the tory party know its over


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

now you can only take 200. previouly you could claim personal use and was ok if tax paid in the EU


----------



## gentlegreen (Dec 24, 2020)

Any news on when we can expect the £350 million a week to start flowing into the NHS ?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> So, it;s 3.30 am here is SK, so my typing isn't great, but
> 
> 
> Before this deal I could take 10,000 fags to the UK and get no stops if I walk through customs ~~
> ...


if you want to bring 10,000 fags just don't get stopped. If you're coming from a non-EU country things will be the same as before, which means just don't get stopped. What is that 3 suitcases full?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

gentlegreen said:


> Any news on when we can expect the £350 million a week to start flowing into the NHS ?



depends if and when they out source it to Serco


----------



## two sheds (Dec 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> No border in the Irish Sea
> Virtually no change from NI-GB
> Some changes to declarations from GB-NI



Doesn't that mean (hard) border between NI and Eire though?


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

Badgers said:


> No border in the Irish Sea
> Virtually no change from NI-GB
> Some changes to declarations from GB-NI



is NI now TF status?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 24, 2020)

[


Count Cuckula said:


> Is this deal likely to get through parliament? What do you all think?


Yup. Probably one of the first times that  Starmer's Labour Party wont abstain.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Is this deal likely to get through parliament? What do you all think?


Absolutely.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 24, 2020)

Hopefully this will mean there won't be any food and/or medication shortages. I guess we'll have to see what happens.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Hopefully this will mean there won't be any food and/or medication shortages. I guess we'll have to see what happens.


It probably does mean that, yes. It's still a fucking horrible deal. We're a little bit worse off in about a thousand different ways. And that's just for starters.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.



it is a mistake which will give Boris the "you voted for it call"

even when this has been a shite show since the vote


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.


You advocate Labour abstaining over this? Really?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.


If he was bluffing the whole time, with those "no deal is very very likely' announcements 2 weeks ago and all that, then it worked perfectly for him.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> if you want to bring 10,000 fags just don't get stopped. If you're coming from a non-EU country things will be the same as before, which means just don't get stopped. What is that 3 suitcases full?



So, same as before, just now you can't say any over the limit are for personal use?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You advocate Labour abstaining over this? Really?


No they should vote against, but with their fingers crossed. As if either option would make any difference.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You advocate Labour abstaining over this? Really?



if they vote for it they will have no voice when it falls aparts as it will be the Line "well you voted for it so shut up"

they won't abstain but then more than likely should


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> So, same as before, just now you can't say any over the limit are for personal use?


No, nothing like before. Before there was no limit other than the 'for personal use' guideline. This change reduces the amount you can safely bring back by a huge amount.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You advocate Labour abstaining over this? Really?


Labour have been played all the way through this. If they vote for this deal, they're being made to own it alongside the tories, despite having zero input into any of the negotiations. Total fuck up.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

I take it, these things are just bullshit by the Brexit crew.


----------



## Dandred (Dec 24, 2020)

This crap seems to be popping up, I take it, it is all bullshit?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

partially correct but very very misleading


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

Dandred said:


> This crap seems to be popping up, I take it, it is all bullshit?


Bullshit from the Brexit crew? Whatever next?


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

“Recognition of our sovereignty over our waters” lol.
I just looked at the sun’s coverage, it’s just like that, total bollocks no information on content just flag waving crap. That’s probably a good thing, better than them trying to tell people exactly how the deal is shit.


----------



## A380 (Dec 24, 2020)

So long, and thanks for all the fish.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 24, 2020)

It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today?  Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

bimble said:


> “Recognition of our sovereignty over our waters” lol.
> I just looked at the sun’s coverage, it’s just like that, total bollocks no information on content just flag waving crap. That’s probably a good thing, better than them trying to tell people exactly how the deal is shit.



jebus even the main pointed out recently that one of the biggest trawlers in the british waters is a dutch owned boat 
operarating under a british flag

this deal is that fucking stupied


----------



## tommers (Dec 24, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today?  Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out



It's not no deal. So great.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today?  Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out



its a relief I won't have to explain it to my Da tomorrow

just go Aye ya won happy days


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today? Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out


Almost like they took it up to the wire on purpose just to get that reaction from people who might otherwise be opposed to what they're doing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Do I feel better now that the UK is no longer subject to EU law or the ECJ? With this government in power for the next four years, no, I don't.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

don't see any mention of workers rights


also so how long before the unemployed have to tend the fields because of the immigration wage cap


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 24, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today?  Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out




I am not relieved. I don't see any good coming out of it. Quite frankly the cunts now have more power to be cunts than ever before in my lifetime. Coupled with the fallout from corona? We're fucked.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 24, 2020)

and no deal on services because its like the uk is a manufacturing power house

so we are fucked


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 24, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> and no deal on services because its like the uk is a manufacturing power house
> 
> so we are fucked


They've cobbled something together to avoid an imminent catastrophe that can be spun as a success. That appears to be about it. There is nothing about any of this that is thought through in any sense, no obvious strategy beyond surviving the immediate politics of the next month or two.


----------



## bimble (Dec 24, 2020)

i just saw fireworks in the distance, maybe somebody out there really is happy idk.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 24, 2020)

Rutita1 said:


> I am not relieved. I don't see any good coming out of it. Quite frankly the cunts now have more power to be cunts than ever before in my lifetime. Coupled with the fallout from corona? We're fucked.


Completely agreed. Just feels like we can actually now face the abyss without the uncertainty. We're fucked, let's plan accordingly


----------



## Anju (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do I feel better now that the UK is no longer subject to EU law or the ECJ? With this government in power for the next four years, no, I don't.



Four years is a bit overly optimistic. Nine as a minimum seems more realistic.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 24, 2020)

tommers said:


> It's not no deal. So great.


Not *any *deal.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> No obvious strategy beyond surviving the immediate politics of the next month or two.


Pretty much sums up the last four years


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 24, 2020)

im looking at Alderney now. unless i get a scotch passport


----------



## AnandLeo (Dec 24, 2020)

Sigh of relief!


----------



## Flavour (Dec 24, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> im looking at Alderney now. unless i get a scotch passport



it has crossed my mind before that Scottish independence would mean end of FoM there too


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> One of the advantages to Johnson of taking it to the wire is that, however shit the deal is, it is better than the only alternative, which is no deal. Labour are indicating that they won't abstain (mistake, imo), but even if they abstain, it gets through with a massive majority.



Fuck it, just give the party a free vote. No party line but whatever the MPs conscience says to do.  

Keir can vote aye, but he should tell his MPs to do whatever they feel is right for constituents and not play this crap game.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 24, 2020)

The biggest driving force for Tories to leave the EU was to deregulate and strike new deals which being in the EU would've supposedly stopped.

We knows theres a vision as there's things like thisbto go on:









						Rightwing thinktanks unveil radical plan for US-UK Brexit trade deal
					

Groups linked to Trump and Fox want foreign competition in NHS and regulations bonfire




					www.theguardian.com
				



And this








						Liam Fox: Leaked documents are accurate but don't show NHS is for sale
					

Leaked minutes detailing UK-US trade talks which Labour claims showed the NHS is "up for sale" were legitimate but interpreted incorrectly, international trade secretary Liam Fox has said.




					www.standard.co.uk
				




That ambition has surely gone nowhere.
So what happens when they try it on and undercut the 'level playing field'?

Seems to me then we get a proper trade war, tarrifs, yet more friction at the border etc. The current deal basically defers facing future unalignment and the pain of that. 

If they just maintain EU standards then what's the point of leaving?

I get the impression this could be the calm before the storm... This moment of ceremonial Uk-Eu harmony could soon evaporate once the deal is stress tested.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 24, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Labour have been played all the way through this. If they vote for this deal, they're being made to own it alongside the tories, despite having zero input into any of the negotiations. Total fuck up.


They chose their game from the start.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 24, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The biggest driving force for Tories to leave the EU was to deregulate and strike new deals which being in the EU would've supposedly stopped.
> 
> We knows theres a vision as there's things like thisbto go on:
> 
> ...


Think we will need to wait for the detail.

Seems like the UK won't be able to drop below EU standards "where there is a clear effect on competition". But how is that supposed to be interpreted? Where a product or service is only traded domestically, does that mean the government can selectively ban unions and disapply the minimum wage? What about something like childcare, which isn't itself generally in competition with EU providers, but cheap childcare does convey a competitive benefit?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 25, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Fuck it, just give the party a free vote. No party line but whatever the MPs conscience says to do.
> 
> Keir can vote aye, but he should tell his MPs to do whatever they feel is right for constituents and not play this crap game.


Who cares what way Labour votes, when it doesn't make any difference. It's such a boring and pointless argument.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 25, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Let me try to paste it up here



magneze suggested using private browser. Which worked. Thanks at magneze .

Read two thirds of this long article.









						Perry Anderson · Ever Closer Union? · LRB 7 January 2021
					

Can democracy, sovereignty and globalisation be happily combined? What American examples show is that European elites...




					www.lrb.co.uk
				




He uses the work of historians and academics who have studied the origins of the EU. They aren't hardened hard lefties. But there painstaking work to look at history of the EU is pretty damning. 

Its a top down unaccountable to the people project. With opposition to "state" interference in the capitalist economy from its early days.

It's main institutions are secretative. The European bank/ ECJ. 

Revealing on the influence of the ECJ on the EU project.

"Law" was used to push for a free market federal Europe in the early days of the ECJ using obscure legal cases / challenges that would not come under the radar of normal democratic politics. 

Over years large body of supposedly politically neutral law was built up. Without democratic oversight. The people of Europe had little say in this.


----------



## Humberto (Dec 25, 2020)

They've picked their battles. They don't even care about the middle-class except as far as it is a bulwark (or a 'flying butress') to hold power and bend the system towards their interest. Which is not ours. At this stage there is so much room for sneakiness and subterfuge. I can't welcome any of this. Who is on the case I don't know. I guess the coming months will show us where we are, but they've done nothing to suggest anything other than that they are a super-rich, ultra-priveliged clique who has nobody to hold them to account.

Don't fall for it is the most important thing. The regular posters here wouldn't but Johnson is a terrible person. His politics are disgusting. A man now grinning in private for his and his gang's self-enrichment. So spare me the Boris is a true blue 'best of British' pulled of a coup type spiel (again not here). We haven't benefited here. They (him and his class) have though. He should be on trial already. This isn't an historic moment/victory/'red letter day'. This is a dysfunctional, nervous confidence charlatan. He is irresponsible. He's a political midget, bulled up by public school priviledge and unimaginable inherited wealth. That's Johnson. We know this. So never forget it.

If you do the maths you are like: 'fuck off you stupid grotesque leaches'.


----------



## A380 (Dec 25, 2020)

Flavour said:


> it has crossed my mind before that Scottish independence would mean end of FoM there too



Whilst I didn’t want Scottish independence I can see why it’s now much more likely. So, the SNP win indyref. Overcome Spanish objections and rejoin/join the EU. Based on the precedent with Ireland there is both a common travel area and a reciprocal arrangement where anyone who was a UK citizen at the time the Union was dissolved is entitled to either a Scottish passport or a rump Uk one. The Scottish do a deal for people living in England or Wales for new passports for £500 and people can go back to freedom of movement and exercising article rights in Europe.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

Gentle reminder; it's Friday Fish 'fast' day today.





> I can assure a great fish fanatics we will as a result of this deal be able to catch and eat quite prodigious quantities of fish.



So what ya'll having?


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Gentle reminder; it's Friday Fish 'fast' day today.
> 
> View attachment 245231
> 
> ...


A juvenile cod and a radioactive herring. The taste of freedom


----------



## Mr Moose (Dec 25, 2020)

eatmorecheese said:


> It's all a shit sandwich, but does anyone feel any relief that the whole Brexit omnifuck has actually _shifted _today?  Either way? A clearer view of in what way, in the short to medium term, we're shafted? Takes a lot of the stress out



Yes. The left couldn’t contain Brexit. It tore into its heartlands and has resulted in a legacy of nationalist politics with the Tories running riot. Once it recedes the Tories may get better judged on their merits rather than their cheerleading. Unfortunately, the Tories and the class they represent are very good at substituting one bullshit obsession for another and English Nationalism may find a new front line in the break up of the Union.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 25, 2020)

Mr Moose said:


> Yes. The left couldn’t contain Brexit. It tore into its heartlands and has resulted in a legacy of nationalist politics with the Tories running riot. Once it recedes the Tories may get better judged on their merits rather than their cheerleading. Unfortunately, the Tories and the class they represent are very good at substituting one bullshit obsession for another and English Nationalism may find a new front line in the break up of the Union.


Yep. Thing is, this English Nationalism running rampant threatens the Tories unionist identity. Morphs into something even nastier and more sinister once the union begins to dissolve  

EDIT: Anyway, peace and goodwill to all, Merry Christmas


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Cost burden shifted from the state to the individual via insurance policies from the Tories' fincapcorp mates.
> Classic accelerated transfer of wealth from labour to capital of the neoliberal, consolidator state.
> Taking back control, you see?
> They just didn't say who was taking it.



I think it was clear from the off whom "control" was for. It's just that lots of us looked the other way and sniffed our fingers as we voted for it.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Most of us live in towns and cities. Food necessarily has to be grown elsewhere. And often there are better places to grow it than right next to the town/city - more efficient places to grow it even with a few more food miles thrown in.



Couldn't "green walls" provide part of the solution? Like vertical allotments for cities.

I just hope we can grow plenty of sovereignty to eat, somehow.



tommers said:


> Why are an airline sending us vegetables?



We could vote them into office, they may do better than the invertebrates currently governing the UK...



bimble said:


> ... flag waving crap.



That was all brexit ever was, and it will get more and more flag wavey as the downsides slowly become more and more evident.

Till we go full far-right govt and then lexiters will finally be happy cos they can start smashing shit up on the steets again for Proper Socialism.

"Happy" Xmas 2020


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

I'm looking forward to see what Streeck has to say about von der Leyen's statement yesterday about the supra-state's vision of sovereignty:



> Of course, this whole debate has always been about sovereignty.
> 
> But we should cut through the soundbites and ask ourselves what sovereignty actually means in the 21st century.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 25, 2020)

Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'm looking forward to see what Streeck has to say about von der Leyen's statement yesterday about the supra-state's vision of sovereignty:





> or me, it is about being able to seamlessly do work, travel, study and do business in 27 countries.


Sort of vision that will resonate in every working class area in the U.K.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2020)

Badgers said:


> No border in the Irish Sea
> Virtually no change from NI-GB
> Some changes to declarations from GB-NI


only for three months grace period, no?








						Brexit: Further details on Irish sea border 'grace period'
					

Food travelling from GB to NI post Brexit will not be subjected to EU health checks until April.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

It seemed to me like an odd way to define sovereignty, specifically.  Until I then considered the arch-neoliberal ideology behind it, at which it made perfect sense.  There is no group identity, just the self — a self that is highly individualised, atomised, commodified and marketed.  It’s not the sovereignty of the group, it’s the sovereignty of the _individual_.  There is no such thing as society.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It seemed to me like an odd way to define sovereignty, specifically.  Until I then considered the arch-neoliberal ideology behind it, at which it made perfect sense.  There is no group identity, just the self — a self that is highly individualised, atomised, commodified and marketed.  It’s not the sovereignty of the group, it’s the sovereignty of the _individual_.  There is no such thing as society.


ISWYM, but it's worse than that IMHO.


> seamlessly do *work, travel, study and do business*


It's pure neoliberalism, seeing the individual merely as a factor of production to be shipped around according to the whim of capital.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

I mean either way, it’s not exactly a leadership I’m seeing as a benevolent protector against the ravages of the Tories.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I mean either way, it’s not exactly a leadership I’m seeing as a benevolent protector against the ravages of the Tories.


The Tories vision being a similar, if much larger scale, version encompassing the entire globe, with added wealth defence in tax havens.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.


Yay for neoliberalism, eh?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The Tories vision being a similar, if much larger scale, version encompassing the entire globe, with added wealth defence in tax havens.


The sole saving grace, however, is that some people at least seem to see that coming.  Without thinking there is an EU deus ex machina, there is at least a chance they may be less complacent about it happening.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> ISWYM, but it's worse than that IMHO.
> 
> It's pure neoliberalism, seeing the individual merely as a factor of production to be shipped around according to the whim of capital.
> *work, travel, study *


work travel and study are not the preserve of neoliberalism - theyve been what people do for thousands of years


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.


From what I've seen, there is not a single bit of it that is better than what was there with EU membership. More restrictions on people, fewer protections for people. Abstract theorising about the nature of the EU doesn't change those immediate, concrete consequences.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yay for neoliberalism, eh?


..


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.


Same here. Mind you, I haven't actually read any of it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.


yes, it's a good door stop


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 25, 2020)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Same here. Mind you, I haven't actually read any of it.


Nor have I. But I never read my doorstops


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> work travel and study are not the preserve of neoliberalism - theyve been what people do for thousands of years


Indeed, but when it comes from the mouthpiece of the neoliberal supra-state it's possible to discern that the 'travel' element equates to the geographical mobility of jobs and labour demanded by neoliberal capital or the commodified tourist business. And study relates to the compulsory period of debt-farming that fincap demands is imposed as a right of entry into the labour market.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 25, 2020)

Has anybody been able to read the deal yet?
I suspect not really and we are going by bits and pieces getting out.
What seems to be the case is that a bad deal is better than no deal. A no deal being the worst outcome.
Again what information we are getting seems to say that in every respect the future situation will be worse than being in the EU.
The open land border in Ireland looks like it is remaining, so that is one border that has not come under UK control (every dot and tittle my arse) which is good thing. 
The nightmare is just beginning though.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2020)

philosophical said:


> The nightmare is just beginning though.


The nightmare is ancient and is not ending any time soon
merry xmas philosophical


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Indeed, but when it comes from the mouthpiece of the neoliberal supra-state it's possible to discern that the 'travel' element equates to the geographical mobility of jobs and labour demanded by neoliberal capital or the commodified tourist business. And study relates to the compulsory period of debt-farming that fincap demands is imposed as a right of entry into the labour market.


Yet people still want to work and study. People still want to move around. The way these things have been commodified may stink, but narrowing the options for people within the system isn't actually helping them.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yet people still want to work and study. People still want to move around. The way these things have been commodified may stink, but narrowing the options for people within the system isn't actually helping them.


Oh yes, I've always regarded the choice put to the UK electorate as an alternative shit sandwich offer.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> People still want to move around.


why? theres perfectly good british jobs and british schools for british people in britain. we'll have no trouble here


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> why? theres perfectly good british jobs and british schools for british people in britain. we'll have no trouble here


It's there that we'll have the trouble


----------



## dessiato (Dec 25, 2020)

I can't help but think that there's been millions spent on getting a shit deal, much worse than we had.


----------



## Supine (Dec 25, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well what I have seen of the deal it looks ok.



My freedom of movement has been taken away from me. You might not be bothered but i am.


----------



## Cloo (Dec 25, 2020)

TL;DR - but is the UK agreeing not to undercut EU by lowering standards/worker rights etc or not? I understood that was one thing they wanted UK to agree to and I think is a pretty important one.


----------



## Winot (Dec 25, 2020)

Cloo said:


> TL;DR - but is the UK agreeing not to undercut EU by lowering standards/worker rights etc or not? I understood that was one thing they wanted UK to agree to and I think is a pretty important one.



As I understand it, if the UK undercuts then the EU can retaliate by increasing tariffs, but only to the extent it is allowed to do so by an independent dispute resolution body who will look  at what is reasonable and proportionate (fuck knows how that will work in practice).


----------



## editor (Dec 25, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> From what I've seen, there is not a single bit of it that is better than what was there with EU membership. More restrictions on people, fewer protections for people. Abstract theorising about the nature of the EU doesn't change those immediate, concrete consequences.


Amen, bro'. And let's not forget how Brexit empowered racists and xenophobes. That's one of the lasting legacies of this fucking idiotic idea.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 25, 2020)

editor said:


> Amen, bro'. And let's not forget how Brexit empowered racists and xenophobes. That's one of the lasting legacies of this fucking idiotic idea.


Have a big remoan hug. Then move on.


----------



## gosub (Dec 25, 2020)

dessiato said:


> I can't help but think that there's been millions spent on getting a shit deal, much worse than we had.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

In a world that has been built for nearly five decades for the U.K. around being part of the EU, it is no great surprise that leaving the EU leaves the UK in an inefficient state and woefully Ill-prepared administratively, resulting in a negative state of affairs.  What those bemoaning this fact never seem to grapple with, however, is that those who want to leave aren’t thinking about what it is like the day after Brexit.  They probably know it’ll be worse that day.  But they think that ten years of building the country around not being in the EU will result in something better than continuing becoming ever more entangled for another ten years.  In many ways, the divorce metaphor really is apt.  Nobody is better off the day after breaking up.


----------



## tommers (Dec 25, 2020)

It's happened now, just got to get on with it.


----------



## Voley (Dec 25, 2020)

kabbes said:


> In a world that has been built for nearly five decades for the U.K. around being part of the EU, it is no great surprise that leaving the EU leaves the UK in an inefficient state and woefully Ill-prepared administratively, resulting in a negative state of affairs.  What those bemoaning this fact never seem to grapple with, however, is that those who want to leave aren’t thinking about what it is like the day after Brexit.  They probably know it’ll be worse that day.  But they think that ten years of building the country around not being in the EU will result in something better than continuing becoming ever more entangled for another ten years.  In many ways, the divorce metaphor really is apt.  Nobody is better off the day after breaking up.


Do you think we will be better off eventually? In 5/10 years time or whatever?

Genuine question btw, I really don't want a pro/anti Brexit argument on Xmas day. There's probably enough of them happening over Christmas dinners as we speak. I just know that you follow the markets/have a much better grip on finance than I ever will so I'd like to hear your take on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 25, 2020)

Voley said:


> Do you think we will be better off eventually? In 5/10 years time or whatever?
> 
> Genuine question btw, I really don't want a pro/anti Brexit argument on Xmas day. There's probably enough of them happening over Christmas dinners as we speak. I just know that you follow the markets/have a much better grip on finance than I ever will so I'd like to hear your take on it.


Not with the shower of politicians we have, a more incompetent crop of cunts can barely be imagined


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

Voley said:


> Do you think we will be better off eventually? In 5/10 years time or whatever?
> 
> Genuine question btw, I really don't want a pro/anti Brexit argument on Xmas day. There's probably enough of them happening over Christmas dinners as we speak. I just know that you follow the markets/have a much better grip on finance than I ever will so I'd like to hear your take on it.


I honestly don’t know.  I genuinely think that our legal status with respect to the EU superstate is massively less important than the political will within our own country.  There is little that can be achieved that couldn’t be equally achieved in the inverse state wrt the EU if the right political will were in place.  So I think leave/remain is arguing about how the deckchairs should be arranged rather than deciding which way the ship should be steered.

In terms of realpolitik, I would suggest that it is better to focus on what we want the actual destination to be than whether the deckchairs are well arranged for the current journey.  To that end, I prefer to accept that the prevailing atmosphere in this country is anti-EU, to not make that the hill I am prepared to die on (to use the popular phrase of the moment) and choose a different hill.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 25, 2020)

Voley said:


> Do you think we will be better off eventually? In 5/10 years time or whatever?
> 
> Genuine question btw, I really don't want a pro/anti Brexit argument on Xmas day. There's probably enough of them happening over Christmas dinners as we speak. I just know that you follow the markets/have a much better grip on finance than I ever will so I'd like to hear your take on it.


It depends on how you measure better off.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

The other thing is that our actions feedback to the process too.  Britain leaving the EU Will change the direction of the EU.  That makes it even more difficult to say.


----------



## Voley (Dec 25, 2020)

Thanks kabbes.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 25, 2020)

The intra-capital disagreements about arranging the superstructure are not undertaken to make _us_ better off; quite the reverse.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The intra-capital disagreements about arranging the superstructure are not undertaken to make _us_ better off; quite the reverse.


Absolutely .


----------



## kabbes (Dec 25, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The intra-capital disagreements about arranging the superstructure are not undertaken to make _us_ better off; quite the reverse.


Right, which is why I’m a bit despondent that we’ve been bounced into focusing all our attention on this rather than the more fundamental questions about who decided these are the two choices in the first place?


----------



## gosub (Dec 25, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Right, which is why I’m a bit despondent that we’ve been bounced into focusing all our attention on this rather than the more fundamental questions about who decided these are the two choices in the first place?


HMG,Parliament,TINA.

But yep really hasn't been handled that well at all. though apparently the alternative was weak and wobbly chaos, and confusion.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 25, 2020)

I like where this thread has got to today.
Anyone fancy a kick about?


----------



## Voley (Dec 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I like where this thread has got to today.
> Anyone fancy a kick about?


Only if we don't end up in a Paul McCartney video.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 25, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I like where this thread has got to today.
> Anyone fancy a kick about?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 25, 2020)

goldenecitrone said:


> View attachment 245412


Is that the artwork for John Lennon's Christmas hit, "Now I've Got A Machine Gun (Ho Ho Ho)"?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 25, 2020)

I’m hoping that the absolute dominance of political debate by Brexit is ended by reaching this stage, and finally other issues can be raised and discussed. It’s like no ground could be made on anything else, and too much ‘you’re not on my side’.  Yet sadly I suspect the right will continue to play the culture war game because it benefits them, and we never really move on from this dogshit.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I’m hoping that the absolute dominance of political debate by Brexit is ended by reaching this stage


No chance. It's just going to move on to claim and counterclaim about everything being shit now/everything will be brilliant tomorrow. Plus, the agreement seems to have a review built in at four years. Meaning, in terms of Westminster politics, we are now gearing up for a 2024 general election that will be dominated by Brexit again.


----------



## gosub (Dec 26, 2020)

Raheem said:


> No chance. It's just going to move on to claim and counterclaim about everything being shit now/everything will be brilliant tomorrow. Plus, the agreement seems to have a review built in at four years. Meaning, in terms of Westminster politics, we are now gearing up for a 2024 general election that will be dominated by Brexit again.


at
I hope not, there's bound to be some push for buyers' remorse, and there's bound to have some funding behind it  and be quite slick but that's 4years away there's a fuck ton of other stuff that will need addressing...Covid should be at the end of a public enquiry by that stage (touch wood) and thats got serious ramifications in several directions AND there HAS to be some sort of new Constutional settlement  if the UK is to survive I think it needs a some sort of regionalizing democratic input into the make up of the House of Lords. So many other things.  

 Brexit is in the mix for sure, but we are where  are.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 26, 2020)

The is good

Key bit being 

.... perhaps the biggest danger for Britain is that it is now stranded awkwardly, half-in, half-out of the European economic system, leaving its relationship with the bloc as fraught and politically combustible as ever 

.... 


Pro-Brexit lawmakers will be likely to press the British government to break away from Europe’s standards and laws and to test the limits of regained national sovereignty. 



That is possible under the agreement, but if the European Union believed any such measures were designed to undercut it, the issue could go to independent arbitration and tariffs could be imposed as a penalty. 

Mr. Johnson might judge it in his interests to press ahead with contentious rules, either to promote his industrial strategy or to reignite the politically divisive debate over Europe that brought him to power. 

Either way, the mechanism established by his deal for resolving trade disputes over diverging economic rules is likely to provide a future flash point. These or other cross-Channel conflicts are certain to be inflamed by the more jingoistic parts of the British tabloid media. 

“It means a process of almost permanent negotiation between Britain and the E.U.,” Mr. Grant said, “and every time that happens, it will pump up the emotion and the rhetoric.”
 ........ 
In short Brexit is far from done, it's only just begun


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> In short Brexit is far from done, it's only just begun



so a convenient argument and a lot of union jack waving about the british sausage (or similar) just before each election / bit of bad news they want to bury, then?


----------



## weltweit (Dec 26, 2020)

If businesses want to supply into the EU, they will have to abide by EU standards. By that I mean product standards for quality and suitability, CE marking and the like. At the moment we are well placed to do that because at the moment every UK business that supplies into the EU already is supplying compliant product. 

It is this government's proposal to establish a UKCA mark which could signal a first divergence between UK and EU standards. Something I think would be undesirable.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2020)

But will they require global suppliers to meet a separate UKCA standard for their products to be legally sold here? That‘ll take years to sort out, retool etc. One of those ‘what’s the fucking point’ things where it just seems like we’re spiting ourselves.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> But will they require global suppliers to meet a separate UKCA standard for their products to be legally sold here?


I don't know, that could be their thinking. It produces yet another level of complexity and cost for manufacturers.  



Dogsauce said:


> That‘ll take years to sort out, retool etc. One of those ‘what’s the fucking point’ things where it just seems like we’re spiting ourselves.


Yes, I need to understand more what the aims of the UKCA are, don't know much about it at the moment. Will speak to a friend tomorrow who is a standards expert, perhaps will know more then.


----------



## Voley (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I like where this thread has got to today.
> Anyone fancy a kick about?


Well that was nice. 

Back to killing each other today then?

Good. 👍


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

The crux of the matter:
The Brexit achieved by Johnson amounts to the chance for globalised capital to undertake a cost-benefit analysis on lobbying the `uk state for lower regulatory standards with consequential higher tariffs into the largest, nearest market.
Control.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The is good
> 
> Key bit being
> 
> ...


Thank you for confirming what I've been saying


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Thank you for confirming what I've been saying


Giving R the _I told you so _ammunition and L the _blame the foreigner _artillery.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Giving R the _I told you so _ammunition and L the _blame the foreigner _artillery.


A plague on both their houses tbh


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> But will they require global suppliers to meet a separate UKCA standard for their products to be legally sold here? That‘ll take years to sort out, retool etc. One of those ‘what’s the fucking point’ things where it just seems like we’re spiting ourselves.



No we'll be eating any old shit before the year is out.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

At last a party that many on here will have been waiting for that tackles their  key concerns Volt stands for Rejoin. A fig leaf Brexit deal misses what we love about Europe


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> At last a party that many on here will have been waiting for that tackles their  key concerns Volt stands for Rejoin. A fig leaf Brexit deal misses what we love about Europe


They'll be known as ReVolt in days and revolting within a week. In a fortnight they'll have gone and by the end of January they'll be forgotten


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They'll be known as ReVolt in days and revolting within a week. In a fortnight they'll have gone and by the end of January they'll be forgotten


Be a great shame for some posters on here if that was  the case . Labour likely to vote for the agreement ,even if some of their continuity remainers rebel and take a valiant stand by abstaining, and the Lib Dems policy of not campaigning for rejoin in the forseeable future . There is still the Lord Adonis lobby though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Be a great shame for some posters on here if that was  the case . Labour likely to vote for the agreement ,even if some of their continuity remainers rebel and take a valiant stand by abstaining, and the Lib Dems policy of not campaigning for rejoin in the forseeable future . There is still the Lord Adonis lobby though.


A great shame lord adonis hasn't gone the way of the original adonis


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> At last a party that many on here will have been waiting for that tackles their  key concerns Volt stands for Rejoin. A fig leaf Brexit deal misses what we love about Europe



Apparently the first concern of most British people is the loss of the ability to take their dog abroad.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Apparently the first concern of most British people is the loss of the ability to take their dog abroad.


and ferrets


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

That is quite astonishing, their first paragraph on their reason for being (not raison d'etre any more obvs.)

_A Brexit Deal is most certainly welcomed against a no deal however it fails to protect the issues that real people actually cared about. British people care about being able to take their dog on holiday in the summer. Without pet passports that will no longer be possible. Roaming charges will skyrocket once again, card charges might too! Healthcare will go as well, anyone with a pre-existing medical condition may struggle to afford health insurance. Students cared about being able to spend a few months abroad to study in a different country, without Erasmus they lose their funding and their grades might not follow them home. How many families can afford to send their son/daughter to Paris for 3 months? Most of all, when we order Italian wine, we expect it to be Italian. When Italians buy our kippers, they expect them to be from the Isle of Man, what will happen to our food? Britain is a food loving nation and that seems to have been forgotten._

Is all wrong. A new pet passport scheme has been confirmed, all mobile operators have pledged not to reintroduce roaming charges, and a revised EHIC system has been agreed, and a new version of Erasmus to allow study abroad, this time worldwide, so better than Erasmus. Italian wine will still be Italian and I had no idea that Italians loved to source their kippers from outside of the EU, not sure how the UK re-joining the EU will affect Isle of Man kippers...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> At last a party that many on here will have been waiting for that tackles their  key concerns Volt stands for Rejoin. A fig leaf Brexit deal misses what we love about Europe


Disappointing they've not be able to work the portmanteau _Brejoin _into their party name.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> I’m hoping that the absolute dominance of political debate by Brexit is ended by reaching this stage, and finally other issues can be raised and discussed. It’s like no ground could be made on anything else, and too much ‘you’re not on my side’.  Yet sadly I suspect the right will continue to play the culture war game because it benefits them, and we never really move on from this dogshit.


Supporters of the likes of Farage are not gonna shut up about it.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Count Cuckula said:


> Supporters of the likes of Farage are not gonna shut up about it.


Neither are  continuity remain tbf


----------



## andysays (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Apparently the first concern of most British people is the loss of the ability to take their dog abroad.


If only the Remain campaign had focused on the core issues like that, it could all have been avoided...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That is quite astonishing, their first paragraph on their reason for being (not raison d'etre any more obvs.)
> 
> A Brexit Deal is most certainly welcomed against a no deal however it fails to protect the issues that real people actually cared about. British people care about being able to take their dog on holiday in the summer. Without pet passports that will no longer be possible. Roaming charges will skyrocket once again, card charges might too! Healthcare will go as well, anyone with a pre-existing medical condition may struggle to afford health insurance. Students cared about being able to spend a few months abroad to study in a different country, without Erasmus they lose their funding and their grades might not follow them home. How many families can afford to send their son/daughter to Paris for 3 months? Most of all, when we order Italian wine, we expect it to be Italian. When Italians buy our kippers, they expect them to be from the Isle of Man, what will happen to our food? Britain is a food loving nation and that seems to have been forgotten.
> 
> Is all wrong. A new pet passport scheme has been confirmed, all mobile operators have pledged not to reintroduce roaming charges, and a revised EHIC system has been agreed, and a new version of Erasmus to allow study abroad, this time worldwide, so better than Erasmus. Italian wine will still be Italian and I had no idea that Italians loved to source their kippers from outside of the EU, not sure how the UK re-joining the EU will affect Isle of Man kippers...


The only kippers I've seen in Portugal are at the tourist area supermarkets mainly those awful tinned ones and on odd occasions frozen ones in plastic bags.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Just read that George Blake the KGB spy has died. Apparently despite there being no EU with open borders his escape from prison in the UK included being driven to the coast in a camper van , boarding a ferry across  the English Channel  the van was then driven across northern Europe and into east Germany, where he met his handlers and completed his escape to the Soviet Union. Obviously didn't take a pet with him though.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Just read that George Blake the KGB spy has died. Apparently despite there being no EU with open borders his escape from prison in the UK included being driven to the coast in a camper van , boarding a ferry across  the English Channel  the van was then driven across northern Europe and into east Germany, where he met his handlers and completed his escape to the Soviet Union. Obviously didn't take a pet with him though.


Is it certain he was a spy btw?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is it certain he was a spy btw?


Being known by the Russians as  Colonel Georgiy Ivanovich Bleyk  and being decorated by the KGB might give the game away. Here's what he said in an interview Ex-KGB dusts off Cold War prize: UK spy Blake at 90


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Is it certain he was a spy btw?


Yes, he was employed by mi6


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> The only kippers I've seen in Portugal are at the tourist area supermarkets mainly those awful tinned ones and on odd occasions frozen ones in plastic bags.


----------



## Winot (Dec 26, 2020)

List of exemptions for work visas here:



Does not include musicians so EU tours just became a whole lot harder.

Not clear whether my profession exempt (in normal times we visit EU for legal hearings).


----------



## Flavour (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I had no idea that Italians loved to source their kippers from outside of the EU, not sure how the UK re-joining the EU will affect Isle of Man kippers...



Why do you think the Isle of Man and Sicily have the same flag? Just for fun? A thousand years of kipper-based friendship between the two islands, linked by their Norman pasts and fervent love of kippers and dangerous motorcycle riding. It is no laughing matter. And no coincidence that the largest and most vocal anti-Brexit protests in Italy (if not Europe!) were in Palermo and Catania.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2020)

Winot said:


> List of exemptions for work visas here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Musicians just have to play gigs that are rebranded as ‘Trade Fairs’. Easy Peasy.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Musicians just have to play gigs that are rebranded as ‘Trade Fairs’. Easy Peasy.


It's going to be hard. Obviously there was no such thing as a foreign gig prior to the EU.


----------



## Winot (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's going to be hard. Obviously there was no such thing as a foreign gig prior to the EU.



Facile comment. No one is suggesting that it will be impossible to perform. It’s undeniable though that it be more hassle and expense.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

Winot said:


> Facile comment. No one is suggesting that it will be impossible to perform. It’s undeniable though that it be more hassle and expense.


Probably just a carnet form for the band gear. Like the olden days.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It's going to be hard. Obviously there was no such thing as a foreign gig prior to the EU.


I really am at a loss to see the point of outright denying the perception of barriers by any one particular interest group?
Professionals active in their field are well placed to express their view of how the superstructural rearrangement might hinder their trade, aren't they?
Irrespective of your own view of Brexit, where's the utility in denial?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Probably just a carnet form for the band gear. Like the olden days.



not if you’re not allowed to ‘work’.  It was kind of nice for my old lot to just roll off the ferry in Calais in the back of an aging Bedford CF, sleep on floors of decrepit squats or plush German youth clubs, no hassle or bureaucracy. Only Switzerland was a pain in the arse because of the carnet stuff, even if just passing through. Nice while it lasted.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 26, 2020)

.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 26, 2020)

fuck it.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I really am at a loss to see the point of outright denying the perception of barriers by any one particular interest group?
> Professionals active in their field are well placed to express their view of how the superstructural rearrangement might hinder their trade, aren't they?
> Irrespective of your own view of Brexit, where's the utility in denial?


You sure do write funny.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You sure do write funny.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Winot said:


> Facile comment. No one is suggesting that it will be impossible to perform. It’s undeniable though that it be more hassle and expense.


Anyone got a clue as to what wriggle room individual EU states may have with this ?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Probably just a carnet form for the band gear. Like the olden days.


Which were shit.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone got a clue as to what wriggle room individual EU states may have with this ?



The fact there is still FoM between UK and Ireland sets precedent, there could in theory be separate FoM agreements signed with individual member states, but I think its unlikely to happen cos the UK gov won't seek it and the EU wouldn't like it if they did.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

How did Cliff Richard get away with in Summer Holiday ?


----------



## Raheem (Dec 26, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The fact there is still FoM between UK and Ireland sets precedent, there could in theory be separate FoM agreements signed with individual member states


Yes, but a country can only really logically be part of one free travel area, so we couldn't have a bilateral agreement with a country that is in Schengen, which is the rest of them except Ireland.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 26, 2020)

Flavour said:


> The fact there is still FoM between UK and Ireland sets precedent, there could in theory be separate FoM agreements signed with individual member states, but I think its unlikely to happen cos the UK gov won't seek it and the EU wouldn't like it if they did.


A 'precedent' set about 50 years before the UK's accession to the supra-state.


----------



## Winot (Dec 26, 2020)

oh look Johnson lied


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 26, 2020)

what good fortune for johnson and co that the deal somehow got signed late on xmas eve - with mps and the media off mostly off duty cos xmass and several days before anyone is going to be paying attention to disgruntled ERG types or fucked off sections of the uk economy who may have been chucked under a bus. couldn't have been better timing if he'd planned it like that!


----------



## gosub (Dec 26, 2020)

Kaka Tim said:


> what good fortune for johnson and co that the deal somehow got signed late on xmas eve - with mps and the media off mostly off duty cos xmass and several days before anyone is going to be paying attention to disgruntled ERG types or fucked off sections of the uk economy who may have been chucked under a bus. couldn't have been better timing if he'd planned it like that!



Was always going to have to be the way it was done if you think about it, nut added Covid helped him no end. Agree with a fir amount of this Boris Johnson has 'got Brexit done'. With a deal that will please no one | Martin Kettle


----------



## Raheem (Dec 26, 2020)

Winot said:


> oh look Johnson lied



This type of thing is worrying, cos it's potentially the way to fuck everything up. There must be a risk that MEPs won't ratify it if they feel the British public is being made promises that would breach it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

There will be no tariffs on goods. editor that means there will be no need for carnets as even if you flog you drumsticks in Düsseldorf there’s no taxes to be paid, so no need for a carnet.

Musicians entering the EU to work will still need a working visa though. Possible get around could be a U.K. company sending you there to work on their behalf and the gig somehow pays that U.K. company who then pays its employees, the musicians.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

Verdict on it; carry on as we were and we’ll sort it out as we go along. An amicable divorce.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 26, 2020)

Speaking of musicians, a short thread on the unviability of touring Europe now we've left:


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Speaking of musicians, a short thread on the unviability of touring Europe now we've left:




What is this saying? You’ll get €900 for touring Paris, Berlin and Amsterdam with with six people? Not really viable under any conditions is it. Maybe stick to three pubs in your local areas and stick with your day jobs until the money is a bit more credible?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> There will be no tariffs on goods. editor that means there will be no need for carnets as even if you flog you drumsticks in Düsseldorf there’s no taxes to be paid, so no need for a carnet.
> 
> Musicians entering the EU to work will still need a working visa though. Possible get around could be a U.K. company sending you there to work on their behalf and the gig somehow pays that U.K. company who then pays its employees, the musicians.


Pretty much every touring company I know is saying carnets will be required.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Pretty much every touring company I know is saying carnets will be required.



If there are no duties on goods, why would there be?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

Carnets cover the possibility of goods being sold without taxes being levied. A carnet absolves you of the need to pay tax as it guarantees you removing the goods. If there is no duty there is no need for a carnet. Who in your touring companies should I send my tax advice invoices to?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 26, 2020)

I see I can't buy wine from Italy any more - the company in question have stopped shipping to the UK but also RoI for the time being. I guess maybe it was a risk to leave it as a possibility over Christmas, or maybe we can expect shipping costs to change, or maybe it's just not worth the hassle any more.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I see I can't buy wine from Italy any more - the company in question have stopped shipping to the UK but also RoI for the time being. I guess maybe it was a risk to leave it as a possibility over Christmas, or maybe we can expect shipping costs to change, or maybe it's just not worth the hassle any more.



You buy wine from a company in Italy? Where do you buy your vinegars and oils from? You bourgeois bellend.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You buy wine from a company in Italy?







__





						Buy italian wine online - Xtrawine
					

Italian wine shop with a selection of fine wine of the most prestigious italian winery. Fast delivery service in Europe and USA.




					www.xtrawine.com
				






Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Where do you buy your vinegars and oils from?


Tesco.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You bourgeois bellend.


Hiya!


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Musicians entering the EU to work will still need a working visa though. Possible get around could be a U.K. company sending you there to work on their behalf and the gig somehow pays that U.K. company who then pays its employees, the musicians.


That's really not a very workable solution. In fact it's pretty much totally impracticable for my band - and I imagine you'd be fucked for insurance too if you're going to start spinning those kind of yarns.


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What is this saying? You’ll get €900 for touring Paris, Berlin and Amsterdam with with six people? Not really viable under any conditions is it. Maybe stick to three pubs in your local areas and stick with your day jobs until the money is a bit more credible?


You don't seem to understand how the music business works. It's not unusual for small bands to go on tour and make a loss if they're promoting a new album. But now it looks like the Brexit deal means that the size of those losses will become untenable. 

And your last sentence sounds like something a Tory dad would say to crush the dreams of his musician children.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> That's really not a very workable solution. In fact it's pretty much totally impracticable for my band - and I imagine you'd be fucked for insurance too if you're going to start spinning those kind of yarns.



It’s not ideal, not sure where you are with the insurance angle, but had Geldof not done what he did Frau Bahn and I would have voted remain, I can’t imagine we were the only people.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> You don't seem to understand how the music business works. It's not unusual for small bands to go on tour and make a loss if they're promoting a new album. But now it looks like the Brexit deal means that the size of those losses will become untenable.
> 
> And your last sentence sounds like something a Tory dad would say to crush the dreams of his musician children.



How much of a loss has you band made touring Europe? Hard figures or fuck off, please.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s not ideal, not sure where you are with the insurance angle, but had Geldof not done what he did Frau Bahn and I would have voted remain, I can’t imagine we were the only people.


Bob Geldof?


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How much of a loss has you band made touring Europe? Hard figures or fuck off, please.


That's none of your business actually, and you need to wind your neck in.

But what is your point here - that bands never lose money on tours of Europe? Or that Brexit won't make the situation worse?

Non sweary, reality-based  answer appreciated.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 26, 2020)

Raheem said:


> This type of thing is worrying, cos it's potentially the way to fuck everything up. There must be a risk that MEPs won't ratify it if they feel the British public is being made promises that would breach it.



my cynical side wonders if that's the plan?

johnson gets the 'no deal' that will make loads of money for his hedge fund chums, but can spin it as all the EU's fault and he did his best...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> That's none of your business actually, and you need to wind your neck in.
> 
> But what is your point here - that bands never lose money on tours of Europe? Or that Brexit won't make the situation worse?
> 
> Non sweary, reality-based  answer appreciated.



Bands routinely tour Europe but not non-EU states at a loss to promote their work. That is your position. Back it up. In a non-sweaty manner. Off you fucking go.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Bob Geldof?


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Bands routinely tour Europe but not non-EU states at a loss to promote their work. That is your position. Back it up. In a non-sweaty manner. Off you fucking go.


"Bands routinely _tour Europe but not non-EU states_ at a loss to promote their work"

That's an impressive strawmen you've just put up there. Try reading what I actually wrote without filling in all the gaps with your imagination. And then maybe you might get to your Big Point.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

An Irish citizen sticking his oar in, always going to end well.


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## BigMoaner (Dec 26, 2020)

was never really for brexit.

but now it's happened, i want it to work. want it to work because i have two young kids and care about the future of the nation. i get the sense that people like my dad are praying for it to go tits up, purely because he was so against. it.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> "Bands routinely _tour Europe but not non-EU states_ at a loss to promote their work"
> 
> That's an impressive strawmen you've just put up there. Try reading what I actually wrote without filling in all the gaps with your imagination. And then maybe you might get to your Big Point.



My point was you and your mates will not need a carnet but you may need a work visa if you wish to work in the EU. You have been stressing about this, especially the carnet thing for quite a while. It seems you are still not happy and that you should be given preferential treatment over African or Asian bands.


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My point was you and your mates will not need a carnet but you may need a work visa if you wish to work in the EU. You have been stressing about this, especially the carnet thing for quite a while. It seems you are still not happy and that you should be given preferential treatment over African or Asian bands.


Just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower you try and place the race card.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

BigMoaner said:


> was never really for brexit.
> 
> but now it's happened, i want it to work. want it to work because i have two young kids and care about the future of the nation. i get the sense that people like my dad are praying for it to go tits up, purely because he was so against. it.


yeh well you'll need to do something more substantial than pray for it to work because it's too big a job for the almighty


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> Just when I thought you couldn't sink any lower you try and place the race card.




FFS

Sober up and revisit that


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My point was you and your mates will not need a carnet but you may need a work visa if you wish to work in the EU. You have been stressing about this, especially the carnet thing for quite a while. It seems you are still not happy and that you should be given preferential treatment over African or Asian bands.


Do Albanian bands need visas?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Do Albanian bands need visas?



If they wish to play in Aberystwyth.


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> FFS
> 
> Sober up and revisit that


I'm stone cold sober. What's your excuse for inventing low, dishonest claims that I've been arguing for "preferential treatment over African or Asian bands"?

I want things to be made easier for_ all_ bands to play anywhere, and if you know anything about touring and playing abroad, you'd know that as it stands, Brexit is going to make things a lot worse.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> View attachment 245561


You and your wife both voted differently to how you originally intended because of that? 
And you reckon other people did so too?
Jesus wept.
Openly racist campaigning from Nigel Farage, also floating on the Thames at that very moment was fine by you, but Geldof dicking about sent you over the edge? No wonder we keep getting Tory governments if this is the kind of thought processes going on out there.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s not ideal, not sure where you are with the insurance angle, but had Geldof not done what he did Frau Bahn and I would have voted remain, I can’t imagine we were the only people.


Really? And the very real jeopardy and pain people are consequently going to feel, including your children, you believe is justified by your dislike of Bob fucking Geldof. I understand people had good reason for voting Brexit, but that's not one. For shame.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I see I can't buy wine from Italy any more - the company in question have stopped shipping to the UK but also RoI for the time being. I guess maybe it was a risk to leave it as a possibility over Christmas, or maybe we can expect shipping costs to change, or maybe it's just not worth the hassle any more.



Surely a temp thing -- the Italian newspapers were all very pleased with the tariff- and quota-free goods trade continuing post-Brexit as the UK is one of their biggest markets. Talk of prosecco's demise has been greatly exaggerated. But I bet you're more of a nebbiolo man.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 26, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Surely a temp thing -- the Italian newspapers were all very pleased with the tariff- and quota-free goods trade continuing post-Brexit as the UK is one of their biggest markets. Talk of prosecco's demise has been greatly exaggerated. But I bet you're more of a nebbiolo man.


Darling, I'm all about Sardinian Cannonau. Clinging to what, 2015 holiday memories? Works for me.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

editor said:


> And your last sentence sounds like something a Tory dad would say to crush the dreams of his musician children.


Peak reached.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 26, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Darling, I'm all about Sardinian Cannonau. Clinging to what, 2015 holiday memories? Works for me.



Fair enough -- it is generally much better value for money than the Cote du Rhone wines (which are primarily made with the same grape variety, Grenache, same thing as Cannonau), which I guess could be said to be true of Italian vs French wine overall.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Really? And the very real jeopardy and pain people are consequently going to feel, including your children, you believe is justified by your dislike of Bob fucking Geldof. I understand people had good reason for voting Brexit, but that's not one. For shame.


So the jeopardy and pain already felt by many including children  under successive governments in the U.K. and EU over the last decade or so has just been a picnic ?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

What about the dogs?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> So the jeopardy and pain already felt by many including children  under successive governments in the U.K. and EU over the last decade or so has just been a picnic ?


Point missed, completely . To reiterate it for you, people had good reasons for voting Brexit. Not liking Bob Geldof is not one. But whatever, tis done now so why not cheer us up with your sunny uplands predictions.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> You and your wife both voted differently to how you originally intended because of that?
> And you reckon other people did so too?
> Jesus wept.
> Openly racist campaigning from Nigel Farage, also floating on the Thames at that very moment was fine by you, but Geldof dicking about sent you over the edge? No wonder we keep getting Tory governments if this is the kind of thought processes going on out there.




I am not married. We looked at who were the cunts were on each side, there were a lot to choose from. Geldof tipped the balance. All I wanted was kaos,  I won.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 26, 2020)

I’m confused by this touring Paris, Berlin and whatever thing for apparently €300 a gig.  My band are rank amateurs playing local pubs that just want to get a few extra bums on seats and sports clubs for their socials and we still charge £200.  And we’re  cheap as these things go.  Who is a recording artist with an album but only charging £270 for a gig that is dedicated just to them?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 26, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Really? And the very real jeopardy and pain people are consequently going to feel, including your children, you believe is justified by your dislike of Bob fucking Geldof. I understand people had good reason for voting Brexit, but that's not one. For shame.




What pain will my children feel?


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> An Irish citizen sticking his oar in, always going to end well.



We might have to stick a few more oars in, before it's all over.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What pain will my children feel?


The pain of buying wine locally?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What about the dogs?



They'll all get passports


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## TopCat (Dec 26, 2020)

two sheds said:


> They'll all get passports


Their own queue as well?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 26, 2020)

Dog Qanons


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## Lucy Fur (Dec 26, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What pain will my children feel?


Opportunitys they will no longer have. You could argue they won't know what they never had. I also acknowledge that that was a charged statement, and apologize for it. I still think that if your reason for voting Brexit was Geldof, you're an arse. Soz, I'd always liked you as a poster.


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## mauvais (Dec 26, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> You could argue they won't know what they never had


I suspect they might not know what they did have either.


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## Yossarian (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> “It means a process of almost permanent negotiation between Britain and the E.U.,” Mr. Grant said, “and every time that happens, it will pump up the emotion and the rhetoric.”



Pretty smart of them to set up a state of constant friction with the EU, really - it'll give the Tories a convenient scapegoat for when Britain unaccountably fails to prosper as a swashbuckling global free trade giant with a thriving manufacturing industry.


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## rutabowa (Dec 26, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m confused by this touring Paris, Berlin and whatever thing for apparently €300 a gig.  My band are rank amateurs playing local pubs that just want to get a few extra bums on seats and sports clubs for their socials and we still charge £200.  And we’re  cheap as these things go.  Who is a recording artist with an album but only charging £270 for a gig that is dedicated just to them?


It is a whole separate thing to what you are doing, and quite believable. The type of band that goes on tour makes profit off selling merch. It is a hustle.


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## Smangus (Dec 26, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Bob Geldof?



Yeah. Bono I could understand but Saint Bob?


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## kabbes (Dec 26, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> It is a whole separate thing to what you are doing, and quite believable. The type of band that goes on tour makes profit off selling merch. It is a hustle.


Blimey.  A new economics of it might be necessary then.  Maybe the venues that are apparently exploiting the fuck out of these bands might have to share a fraction more.  Even if they’re only selling 100 tickets at a tenner a go plus taking at least twice that on the bar, it’s likely they’re handing over something like just 10% of the take.  Twice the customers and it drops to 5%.  If they want to carry on putting on the bands, they might have to share a little more.


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## Smangus (Dec 26, 2020)

Think yourself lucky you are not in a pay to play position, that's a whole other bullshit economic model.


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## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Point missed, completely . To reiterate it for you, people had good reasons for voting Brexit. Not liking Bob Geldof is not one. But whatever, tis done now so why not cheer us up with your sunny uplands predictions.


I don’t have any sunny uplands predictions tbh . What point were you trying to make about the pain and misery?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Pretty smart of them to set up a state of constant friction with the EU, really - it'll give the Tories a convenient scapegoat for when Britain unaccountably fails to prosper as a swashbuckling global free trade giant with a thriving manufacturing industry.


Tbf Mr Grant is part of a pro EU organisation


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## Lucy Fur (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I don’t have any sunny uplands predictions tbh . What point were you trying to make about the pain and misery?


The short to mid term economic predictions of Brexit are not good. By all means persuade me differently. Otherwise I'm not clear what your trying to achieve with this exchange.


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## rutabowa (Dec 26, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Blimey.  A new economics of it might be necessary then.  Maybe the venues that are apparently exploiting the fuck out of these bands might have to share a fraction more.  Even if they’re only selling 100 tickets at a tenner a go plus taking at least twice that on the bar, it’s likely they’re handing over something like just 10% of the take.  Twice the customers and it drops to 5%.  If they want to carry on putting on the bands, they might have to share a little more.


I'm not talking about places that sell 100 tickets, or sell tickets for 10 pounds each, or any kind of exploitation. And it is nothing to do with economics either


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## sleaterkinney (Dec 26, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> So the jeopardy and pain already felt by many including children  under successive governments in the U.K. and EU over the last decade or so has just been a picnic ?


I think that leaving the EU won’t solve any of that and I also think that this current government will make it worse. They’ve used the jeopardy and pain and said it’s the EUs fault.


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## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> The short to mid term economic predictions of Brexit are not good. By all means persuade me differently. Otherwise I'm not clear what your trying to achieve with this exchange.


I was trying to achieve clarification about what you meant , that was all.


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## The39thStep (Dec 26, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> I think that leaving the EU won’t solve any of that and I also think that this current government will make it worse. They’ve used the jeopardy and pain and said it’s the EUs fault.


I’ve never felt that leaving the EU in itself would solve it . Equally staying in doesn’t solve it . Only building working class resilience back will make any difference and we are in a difficult period with that .


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Peak reached.


"Give up your silly dreams, son. Music's not for you. Get a proper job."


----------



## Supine (Dec 26, 2020)

Oh man. I've just seen the figures for fish changes between now and 2026. Utterly insignificant.


----------



## Supine (Dec 26, 2020)

^ numbers might be hard to read from that. This is better


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## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m confused by this touring Paris, Berlin and whatever thing for apparently €300 a gig.  My band are rank amateurs playing local pubs that just want to get a few extra bums on seats and sports clubs for their socials and we still charge £200.  And we’re  cheap as these things go.  Who is a recording artist with an album but only charging £270 for a gig that is dedicated just to them?


It's not unusual for bands to hire venues when they're on tour, or accept a percentage of the door. If the turn out is low, the gig money will be low but if they're lucky, they'll shift a load of merchandise to make up the losses. I haven't seen the new rules for bringing merchandise into Europe to sell post-Brexit, but I'm pretty sure it won't be good news for bands operating on a breadline.


----------



## editor (Dec 26, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Blimey.  A new economics of it might be necessary then.  Maybe the venues that are apparently exploiting the fuck out of these bands might have to share a fraction more.  Even if they’re only selling 100 tickets at a tenner a go plus taking at least twice that on the bar, it’s likely they’re handing over something like just 10% of the take.  Twice the customers and it drops to 5%.  If they want to carry on putting on the bands, they might have to share a little more.


Except they'd be more likely to not book bands anymore - or just go for cheaper, less established local ones. Or stick DJs on instead.


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## Dogsauce (Dec 26, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I’m confused by this touring Paris, Berlin and whatever thing for apparently €300 a gig.  My band are rank amateurs playing local pubs that just want to get a few extra bums on seats and sports clubs for their socials and we still charge £200.  And we’re  cheap as these things go.  Who is a recording artist with an album but only charging £270 for a gig that is dedicated just to them?



Those who do it more or less as a holiday for fun and adventure, not arsed about the money.

Petrol, somewhere to stay, a feed, anything else a bonus. 

In the late 90s I was doing gigs in remote bits of the Czech Republic and getting 20-30 Euros shared between two bands, sleeping on someone’s floor, occasionally a decent feed. One place paid us 20 but deducted from that the bar tab for two bands (9 people, mostly hammered), which ended up as 14 euro because pivo was about 20p. 

Tours would usually be bankrolled by state-funded German youth clubs with an entertainment budget that’d pay you 250-300 even if there was fuckall turnout, a few of those to fill the diesel tank then head east where anything was a bonus. Some extra cash from records and T-shirts but those were put out cheap or sometimes just traded for things. Kind of like those Sunday league teams that go for a week’s tour in Holland, nobody expects to get paid. Harder these days because fuel is a lot more, fewer squat venues or moneyed youth clubs, much more cost or inconvenience and it’ll be pretty much dead for DIY touring.


----------



## Larry O'Hara (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Owen Jones makes a lot of sense in this article on Brexit. Brexit is back – and Labour's dilemma has not changed | Owen Jones


I think Owen Jones rarely makes sense on anything: since 2015 as I enumerate in the review of his myopic book below he has since 2015 adopted five different positions. If you wait a couple of months he’ll no doubt shake the dice and come up with a sixth....





__





						Notes From The Borderland - REVIEW OF OWEN JONES 'THIS LAND' & GABRIEL POGRUND and PATRICK MAGUIRE 'LEFT OUT'
					

KICKING THE MOLTEN ASHES: A REVIEW OF GABRIEL POGRUND & PATRICK MAGUIRE ‘LEFT OUT: THE INSIDE STORY OF LABOUR UNDER CORBYN’ (BODLEY HEAD 2020 £18....




					www.borderland.co.uk


----------



## Cerv (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> and a revised EHIC system has been agreed, and a new version of Erasmus to allow study abroad, this time worldwide, so better than Erasmus.


you're stating as fact that this Turing exchange programme will be better than the long established Erasmus programme. based on what exactly? they've not published any details of it. so you've just an assumption based on the bluster of people who I would remind you were until very recently promising without any doubt that they'd keep our membership of Erasmus, the lying shits.
setting up a global scheme is a worthy aim, but there's no need to pull out of Erasmus to do that. it doesn't benefit you in any way to get your scheme off the ground.
honestly I'd be not at all surprised if this goes nowhere. it only exists as a headline to deflect complaints today as to why they'd want to pull out of the existing partnership. and they've announced it with no detail and not even having any other country signed up in principle yet.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

Cerv said:


> you're stating as fact that this Turing exchange programme will be better than the long established Erasmus programme. based on what exactly? they've not published any details of it. so you've just an assumption based on the bluster of people who I would remind you were until very recently promising without any doubt that they'd keep our membership of Erasmus, the lying shits.
> setting up a global scheme is a worthy aim, but there's no need to pull out of Erasmus to do that. it doesn't benefit you in any way to get your scheme off the ground.
> honestly I'd be not at all surprised if this goes nowhere. it only exists as a headline to deflect complaints today as to why they'd want to pull out of the existing partnership. and they've announced it with no detail and not even having any other country signed up in principle yet.




Better in that it will offer many more countries to study in, rather than limiting it to European ones.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

A few more days, a few more fag end arguments and its done.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A few more days, a few more fag end arguments and its done.


The realisation, on both sides, that nothing of any substance has changed?


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Better in that it will offer many more countries to study in, rather than limiting it to European ones.



It’ll involve little more than toadying to the moneyed elite in China and India to send their offspring here to study. Plus it’ll be run by someone like Capita who will trouser most of the funding for their own fees.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Better in that it will offer many more countries to study in, rather than limiting it to European ones.


Erasmus has 34 programme member states plus another 20 partners (not all in Europe btw) 
adds up to something like 4000 educational institutions.

Turing has 1 so far.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> It’ll involve little more than toadying to the moneyed elite in China and India to send their offspring here to study. Plus it’ll be run by someone like Capita who will trouser most of the funding for their own fees.


A microcosm of Brexit; tinkering ineptly with the superstructure whilst nothing is done to change the privatisation/marketisation of the debt-farming business that neoliberal governments have made of HE.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

Cerv said:


> Erasmus has 34 programme member states plus another 20 partners (not all in Europe btw)
> adds up to something like 4000 educational institutions.
> 
> Turing has 1 so far.




Turing is how old? Less than a week. Struggling to give a fuck about a bunch of Tarquins jollying it up at foreign unis at my expense tbh.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Turing is how old? Less than a week. Struggling to give a fuck about a bunch of Tarquins jollying it up at foreign unis at my expense tbh.


But that's where Tory Brexit bullshit takes you; rather than focussing on why our kids either don't get the education they deserve, or worse still, sink under a mountain of personal debt to end up un/under-employed.


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 27, 2020)

Supine said:


> Oh man. I've just seen the figures for fish changes between now and 2026. Utterly insignificant.
> 
> View attachment 245576



So after more than four years of haggling, British negotiators won a 4% increase over five years in the amount of cod British ships can catch in British waters? 

If that's the part Boris Johnson was boasting about, I don't have high hopes for the rest of the deal.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Turing is how old? Less than a week. Struggling to give a fuck about a bunch of Tarquins jollying it up at foreign unis at my expense tbh.



UK participation in Erasmus was always very low but I can assure that across the continent it is far from just the Tarquins who take part, it's the majority of uni students in multiple countries, many of which have much cheaper uni costs and therefore accessibility than the UK.


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## flypanam (Dec 27, 2020)

Not just students either lots of staff both teaching and professional have visited other institutions to teach or for training. I’ve visited Croatia, Romania and was meant to be in Serbia in 2020. All of which helped me understand more about Southwestern Slav literature and drama and help me build a pretty good collection of Balkan literature in the library.


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Pretty smart of them to set up a state of constant friction with the EU, really - it'll give the Tories a convenient scapegoat for when Britain unaccountably fails to prosper as a swashbuckling global free trade giant with a thriving manufacturing industry.




A Freeport in every town and a golden age for monkey knife fights.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

Yossarian said:


> Pretty smart of them to set up a state of constant friction with the EU, really - it'll give the Tories a convenient scapegoat for when Britain unaccountably fails to prosper as a swashbuckling global free trade giant with a thriving manufacturing industry.


A scapegoat won't save them though - like blaming it on the weather. The pre-Brexit state of friction was a far more useful device because they could make promises rather than excuses.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

flypanam said:


> Not just students either lots of staff both teaching and professional have visited other institutions to teach or for training. I’ve visited Croatia, Romania and was meant to be in Serbia in 2020. All of which helped me understand more about Southwestern Slav literature and drama and help me build a pretty good collection of Balkan literature in the library.



In that case they should cancel Brexit.


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## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> It’ll involve little more than toadying to the moneyed elite in China and India to send their offspring here to study. Plus it’ll be run by someone like Capita who will trouser most of the funding for their own fees.



Essentially we're swapping a program with joined up intricate bureaucracy that opens the door to a couple hundred unis with a frictionless visa system for a program where every university is going to ask for something different and also retain a massive quantity of paperwork for staff and students while sorting out visas and accommodation reliant on those is going to be an absolute paih in the arse.


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## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> In the late 90s I was doing gigs in remote bits of the Czech Republic and getting 20-30 Euros shared between two bands, sleeping on someone’s floor, occasionally a decent feed. One place paid us 20 but deducted from that the bar tab for two bands (9 people, mostly hammered), which ended up as 14 euro because pivo was about 20p.


Weird, as the Czech Republic wasn't in the EU until 2004 and even now doesn't really use the Euro


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

Not doubting your numbers btw, I went to Prague in 1999 and four of us went out in a cab, had dinner, got pissed and paid to see live jazz and the total was under £20.

I do remember armed border guards detaining the bus for an hour when crossing between Germany and Czech Rep, though, presumably didn't happen a few years later.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Essentially we're swapping a program with joined up intricate bureaucracy that opens the door to a couple hundred unis with a frictionless visa system for a program where every university is going to ask for something different and also retain a massive quantity of paperwork for staff and students while sorting out visas and accommodation reliant on those is going to be an absolute paih in the arse.


My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 27, 2020)

Not saying that, but getting rid of Erasmus is premature. Turing may end up being global in scope but in practice probably won't stretch any further than commonwealth countries. There is a delusion here, and a soppy, misty eyed belief in English exceptionalism that allows the tories to promise much and deliver little.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> "Give up your silly dreams, son. Music's not for you. Get a proper job."


Sounds like any unsupportive dad. Why say Tory though?


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In that case they should cancel Brexit.



"This academic exchange program has benefited myself and other educators."

"Shut up and eat some Brexit, Tarquin!"


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> "Give up your silly dreams, son. Music's not for you. Get a proper job."











						9 pop stars who quit music for very relatable day jobs - BBC Music
					

When the dream is over, that gig as a software engineer, farmer or estate agent beckons



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.



That's nice but I'm mostly going from details here.





bimble said:


> The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.



Apparently noone who isn't posh visits Europe which is going to be news to Spain and Prague's cheap boozers.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

[


bimble said:


> The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.


Accept when it applies to many remainers views of w/class ex pats who apparently aren't foreign enough


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

Are you going to live the rest of your days doing a Remain-flavour version of "but her emails"?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> My son went and studied in Canada for a year recently. Really simple process, did it all himself.


Is his name Tarquin? It's a shame Brexit can't stop this kind of thing too.


----------



## Winot (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Struggling to give a fuck about a bunch of Tarquins jollying it up at foreign unis at my expense tbh.



And this is how the parochial mindset of Brexit killed opportunities for the working-class.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.


It comes from the association of which subcultures enjoy these things, which in turn becomes of the group identity.  Then people self-categorise (and thus identify) as members of a group that in part defines itself by _not_ being something, as all groups do.  The middle classes have built a cultural norm around certain types of food, drink, activity etc.  Identifying as not middle class will then partially involve the rejection of these cultural norms.


----------



## Winot (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).



The rich Brexiteers like Lawson with his French residency want to keep the working class Brits out of Europe to save it for themselves.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble — if you want to understand more about the cosmopolitan elite associations of “enjoying the cultural EU” being a cultural split between posh remainers and working-class leavers, I suggest you have a look at this paper that I posted earlier 





kabbes said:


> This is a study that looks at how people understood the relationship between Britain and Europe during the critical period.


For example, this is a relevant passage:



> In addition to their young age and geographical location (London), which have both been associated with the Remain vote (Swales 2016), the middle-class background of these participants is important for understanding their accounts. The use of the words ‘sophisticated’, ‘cosmopolitan’, ‘arts’ and ‘gourmet’ point to a conception of a rather ‘high-brow’ European cultural identity, one that is more associated with the cultural capital of the middle and upper classes (Savage 2015). As has been noted by scholars of cosmopolitanism, this appears to be an ‘elitist’ conception of cosmopolitanism which is more relevant to the material resources and lifestyles of transnational elites (Calhoun 2002). Although ‘groundedness’ is also part of this representation of Europe described by Amanda above, this point remains unelaborated whilst ideas around cosmopolitanism and high culture take centre stage. In this account of Europeanness, Britishness is presented as not sufficiently cultured to be European


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

Winot said:


> The rich Brexiteers like Lawson with his French residency want to keep the working class Brits out of Europe to save it for themselves.


If they had their way they'd keep the european working classes out of europe too, except those cheap east european handymen


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Winot said:


> And this is how the parochial mindset of Brexit killed opportunities for the working-class.


I think this has far more significance for opportunities for the w/class 








						Apprenticeships are the UK’s ‘weakest’ education provision, watchdog warns
					

<p xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml">Ofsted says many providers are failing to develop their curriculums in conjunction with employers</p>




					www.peoplemanagement.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> If they had their way they'd keep the european working classes out of europe too, except those cheap east european handymen


The EU are doing quite a good job on that issue as well,   16 million workers unemployed , more than 7 per cent in the eurozone and 110m people live in poverty.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

. Another Fuck it


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

I very much doubt the debate (?) over brexit is going to go away. Diminish a bit possibly, but on a regular basis news will emerge about how things are worse now that the nationalists have succeeded in their destructive mission, and there will a pathetic attempt to say things are better because of blue passports or less 'foreigners' or some such rubbish.
I suspect that behind all this is a further opportunity for hedge funds and whatnot, money jugglers if you like, to make numerical fortunes whilst others work as their gardeners or coffee shop drones.
Watching the news in the last week or so about the rise and fall of the pound, whilst the 'will they won't they' do a deal news is pumped out would've been great for those in the know and they would not have been 'gambling' on the exchange rate changes, but exploiting such movement for enrichment.
For me the greatest sadness right now, as somebody born into a world of rationing and bombsites, yet with some hope in the form of the NHS and improved education, and further hope in seeing a willingness across Europe for people to get along together, the sadness is living long enough to see the destruction of that hope.
No more EU to soften the eternal mendacious grip of rule by the English establishment, a future of Nationalism and privatisation and lies and exploitation.
I will be intrigued most especially how those who previously called themselves lexiters contribute to their £120million 'Festival of Brexit' designed to bring the country together.
I personally can't see a route to reconciliation with anybody who is comfortable in the company of the brexit crowd like Farage, Rees Mogg, Redwood, Johnson, Francois, Rabb, Stephen Yakitty Lookatme, Hoey, and the rest. It will be a source of horrific fascination observing those purporting to be of the left equivocating about their new alliances with right wing bastards.
Maybe one of the stalls at the Festival will be a queue of lexiters lining up to pay their £50 to receive a celebratory reach around from Andrew Bridgen or Priti Patel.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 27, 2020)

.... aaaand breathe.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> 9 pop stars who quit music for very relatable day jobs - BBC Music
> 
> 
> When the dream is over, that gig as a software engineer, farmer or estate agent beckons
> ...


Except they had a successful pop career first.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

Additional fuck it


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).


Total guess, but might have a bit of truth in it:

Norman invasion of 1066 bringing with it the culture and practice of the French aristocracy.
Creating a massive class division between those empowered by the French (Normans) who adopt the mores Vs those proud anglosaxons who don't / are left out.

There's also stuff like The Great Tour, where younger British socialites would travel around Europe and learn of the splendour of post Roman greatness in the hope some of it would rub off.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> Those who do it more or less as a holiday for fun and adventure, not arsed about the money.
> 
> Petrol, somewhere to stay, a feed, anything else a bonus.
> 
> ...


Right! Good news on the carnet thing not happening, for this type of touring.

So it will probably be covid that killed this kind of touring, rather than brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Except they had a successful pop career first.


Yes the title says pop stars. It was light hearted not meant as any career advice


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).



I'm vaguely aware of this influential book 





						The Civilizing Process - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org
				



Which places the spread and application of the culture of the French aristocracy  at the heart of many modern "civilised" norms


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).


It's on a continuum with 'posh Tarquins' at one end and 'rootless cosmopolitans' on the other.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> That's nice but I'm mostly going from details here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fits in nicely with the dept of Ed and office for students demand that education be all about employability.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> It's on a continuum with 'posh Tarquins' at one end and 'rootless cosmopolitans' on the other.


We also simultaneously believe that foreigners - especially the French - are dirty and uncultured. What a people we are.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> We also simultaneously believe that ... the French - are dirty and uncultured.


Well.  I mean, you’ve been there, right?


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Well.  I mean, you’ve been there, right?


I mostly regret not staying, to be honest.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

New York Times seems unimpressed


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

I am in France right now and tbf central Paris does feel cleaner than central London, the streets I mean. Nicer bread too


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> The constant tendency to equate anything foreign with poshness is very weird. Seems to go for everything, cheese, jobs, the lot. What is that about.


On this thread it's about not having any arguments. Brexit is just fucking shit, and the idiots pretending it's only middle class privilege that is affected know that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I am in France right now and tbf central Paris does feel cleaner than central London, the streets I mean. Nicer bread too



Whenever I do manage to get abroad I'm always impressed by the quality of standard supermarket bread, and the stock in general tbh.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> We also simultaneously believe that foreigners - especially the French - are dirty and uncultured. What a people we are.


iv been picking up bits and pieces about historic british hygeine practices - alergic to water sums it up

Sootkins was a bit of an eye opener!




__





						Urban Dictionary: sootikin
					

A small, mouse-shaped deposit formed in the vaginal cleft, usually of poorer women who did not wear undergarments - common until the nineteenth century. A sootikin built up over several weeks, even months, of not washing. It was composed of particles of soot, dirt, sweat, smegma (qv) and vaginal...




					www.urbandictionary.com


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I mostly regret not staying, to be honest.


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> Is it the whole rest of the world that’s pretentious and posh or is it actually mostly just France ? (Seriously, curious about the roots of this attitude and how much it had to do with the whole stupid referendum).



We've always had an inferiority complex with regards to them, as have most of their neighbours (the Germans especially).  It is after all the part of Europe thats nearly always been the best part of Europe to live, with the most natural advantages and with the best style of life - good food, good wine, good views, good weather etc.  

I think recently though, its the Eurotunnel that is to blame.  Flying between Heathrow and CDG (or any French airport), or taking the ferry is pretty much swapping one standardized travel experience for another, but taking the train is basically you moving from a backwards country to a modern one.  Its really obvious how cramped the Underground is (even a relatively modern line like the Victoria) after going on the RER, and as for the intercity services the difference between even the most modern trains here and the oldest TGV (never mind the Duplex) is vast.   Everything about SNCF is demonstrably superior to here, even daft things like ticketing.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> We also simultaneously believe that foreigners - especially the French - are dirty and uncultured. What a people we are.


I've never heard of people calling the French dirty tbh .


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> We've always had an inferiority complex with regards to them, as have most of their neighbours (the Germans especially).  It is after all the part of Europe thats nearly always been the best part of Europe to live, with the most natural advantages and with the best style of life - good food, good wine, good views, good weather etc.
> 
> I think recently though, its the Eurotunnel that is to blame.  Flying between Heathrow and CDG (or any French airport), or taking the ferry is pretty much swapping one standardized travel experience for another, but taking the train is basically you moving from a backwards country to a modern one.  Its really obvious how cramped the Underground is (even a relatively modern line like the Victoria) after going on the RER, and as for the intercity services the difference between even the most modern trains here and the oldest TGV (never mind the Duplex) is vast.   Everything about SNCF is demonstrably superior to here, even daft things like ticketing.


if only we could be part of this modern europe


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Apart from more port congestion, some foods running short and some inflation, will ordinary folk notice any difference when they wake up Friday in the UK's new relationship with the supra-state


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> We've always had an inferiority complex with regards to them, as have most of their neighbours (the Germans especially).  It is after all the part of Europe thats nearly always been the best part of Europe to live, with the most natural advantages and with the best style of life - good food, good wine, good views, good weather etc.
> 
> I think recently though, its the Eurotunnel that is to blame.  Flying between Heathrow and CDG (or any French airport), or taking the ferry is pretty much swapping one standardized travel experience for another, but taking the train is basically you moving from a backwards country to a modern one.  Its really obvious how cramped the Underground is (even a relatively modern line like the Victoria) after going on the RER, and as for the intercity services the difference between even the most modern trains here and the oldest TGV (never mind the Duplex) is vast.   Everything about SNCF is demonstrably superior to here, even daft things like ticketing.


i dont think the tube is the best standard of what a country is like
a lot of british infrastructure is a century old, and its hard to upgrade as a result
i have heard visitors from other countries being surprised how manky and run down the tube is though
fact is the UK has some of the most wordlbeating public transport systems in the world... the rail replacement bus service is second to none


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Apart from more port congestion, some foods running short and some inflation, will ordinary folk notice any difference when they wake up Friday in the UK's new relationship with the supra-state


Yes

The cucumbers will be bendy


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> i dont think the tube is the best standard of what a country is like
> a lot of british infrastructure is a century old, and its hard to upgrade as a result
> i have heard visitors from other countries being surprised how manky and run down the tube is though
> fact is the UK has some of the most wordlbeating public transport systems in the world... the rail replacement bus service is second to none



It isn't, but it is one of the first things you experience.  

I also think this "hard to upgrade" excuse is something that we use far too often; I mean the Victoria Line was built in the late 60s and we basically built (with then modern technology) the same sort of thing as had been seen in 1890, rather than something that was better.  Even HS2 is going to be an upgrade on what we have now, rather than bringing us to the same sort of level as they have (never mind being better than them).


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> if only we could be part of this modern europe



Aren't most of our railways, energy and utility companies owned or part owned by European companies ?


----------



## teuchter (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> Everything about SNCF is demonstrably superior to here, even daft things like ticketing.


This really is complete nonsense. How much have you actually travelled on SNCF, outside of the main routes?


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

teuchter said:


> This really is complete nonsense. How much have you actually travelled on SNCF, outside of the main routes?



Quite a bit, though mainly around Marseille / Montpellier / Nimes / Beziers etc and Angers / Nantes.  I especially stand by that ticketing comment, being able to cancel a booking on TGV twenty minutes before departure at no cost to me (as opposed to cancelling a ticket on Avanti with two weeks notice, which cost me £10).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> New York Times seems unimpressed
> 
> View attachment 245621



Meh. Better in the long run if we turn away from all this financial services bollocks.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

SpookyFrank said:


> Meh. Better in the long run if we turn away from all this financial services bollocks.


Any ideas on how that laudable aim might be achieved since our manufacturing base is pretty much decimated?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> It isn't, but it is one of the first things you experience.
> 
> I also think this "hard to upgrade" excuse is something that we use far too often; I mean the Victoria Line was built in the late 60s and we basically built (with then modern technology) the same sort of thing as had been seen in 1890, rather than something that was better.  Even HS2 is going to be an upgrade on what we have now, rather than bringing us to the same sort of level as they have (never mind being better than them).


hard to upgrade because of the limited shape of the tunnels
Jubilee line feels modern - Victoria line is 60 years old
Overground trains are based on Japanese trains IIRC, - or someone elses trains anyhow


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> Quite a bit, though mainly around Marseille / Montpellier / Nimes / Beziers etc and Angers / Nantes.  I especially stand by that ticketing comment, being able to cancel a booking on TGV twenty minutes before departure at no cost to me (as opposed to cancelling a ticket on Avanti with two weeks notice, which cost me £10).


Did you stop in angers to visit the cointreau distillery and see the fine apocalypse tapestry?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Any ideas on how that laudable aim might be achieved since our manufacturing base is pretty much decimated?



Un-decimate it?

We are well placed to produce a surplus of wind and tidal power for one thing, and cheap power would make other industries more competitive.


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Did you stop in angers to visit the cointreau distillery and see the fine apocalypse tapestry?



Not the distillery, but the apocalypse tapestry was fantastic (as was the rest of the castle, and the cathedral too for that matter).  I prefered Nantes though, especially the museum which was probably the best museum dedicated to a city that I've ever been in.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Apart from more port congestion, some foods running short and some inflation, will ordinary folk notice any difference when they wake up Friday in the UK's new relationship with the supra-state


The sound of bleating will keep us all awake at night for the first week.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Any ideas on how that laudable aim might be achieved since our manufacturing base is pretty much decimated?


Anti capitalists for the City.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sound of bleating will keep us all awake at night for the first week.


After a week in captivity without food the cabinet will be ready to be live exported


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> After a week in captivity without food the cabinet will be ready to be live exported


Progress.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Progress.


They'll have to be fattened up before being fed to the penguins


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> We've always had an inferiority complex with regards to them, as have most of their neighbours (the Germans especially).  It is after all the part of Europe thats nearly always been the best part of Europe to live, with the most natural advantages and with the best style of life - good food, good wine, good views, good weather etc.
> 
> I think recently though, its the Eurotunnel that is to blame.  Flying between Heathrow and CDG (or any French airport), or taking the ferry is pretty much swapping one standardized travel experience for another, but taking the train is basically you moving from a backwards country to a modern one.  Its really obvious how cramped the Underground is (even a relatively modern line like the Victoria) after going on the RER, and as for the intercity services the difference between even the most modern trains here and the oldest TGV (never mind the Duplex) is vast.   Everything about SNCF is demonstrably superior to here, even daft things like ticketing.




Suburban rail in the UK is vastly superior to that in France, in terms of coverage and frequency of trains.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

It seems it's very first world problems being anticipated. Band visa forms, cross border transportation of dogs to second homes, impoverished stock brokers.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It seems it's very first world problems being anticipated. Band visa forms, cross border transportation of dogs to second homes, impoverished stock brokers.




Yeah but southwest Slavic plays.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It seems it's very first world problems being anticipated. Band visa forms, cross border transportation of dogs to second homes, impoverished stock brokers.


Transportation of impoverished stockbrokers to second homes...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Fuck me. Education exchange opportunites are just an elite concern? How the fuck did you get to such a stupid place?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sound of bleating will keep us all awake at night for the first week.


Squeaky wheel syndrome.


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Suburban rail in the UK is vastly superior to that in France, in terms of coverage and frequency of trains.



The mid-afternoon break in services was certainly annoying, but coming from a (reasonably populated, at least in Welsh terms) place where the nearest station was an hour's walk to catch an hourly service I must say I've never really thought we had a great coverage or frequency of trains.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck me. Education exchange opportunites are just an elite concern? How the fuck did you get to such a stupid place?


Followed you.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Apart from more port congestion, some foods running short and some inflation, will ordinary folk notice any difference when they wake up Friday in the UK's new relationship with the supra-state


There are some heartfelt issues raised here by ordinary folk  What the European Union has meant to us


----------



## Crispy (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> Even HS2 is going to be an upgrade on what we have now, rather than bringing us to the same sort of level as they have (never mind being better than them).


HS2 is going to be one of the fastest, most intensively run railways in the world. It very much will be world-class.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Anti capitalists for the City.


Ignoring your deceitful spin for a moment, you'll have to elaborate on the anti capitalist solution that Brexit is offering.  Still you must be pleased for Boris for delivering the brave new future you voted for. Which is what, exactly? I'm still waiting for someone to explain the glorious benefits we'll all be enjoying in return for spunking untold billions down the drain and the empowering of racists and xenophobes.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Suburban rail in the UK is vastly superior to that in France, in terms of coverage and frequency of trains.


How does the pricing compare?


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> Not the distillery, but the apocalypse tapestry was fantastic (as was the rest of the castle, and the cathedral too for that matter).  I prefered Nantes though, especially the museum which was probably the best museum dedicated to a city that I've ever been in.



Clearly you have never been to Lancaster 

Re: HS2 - i highly doubt the trains will be as comfortable and swish as the freccia rossa in Italy. Italy also has a big inferiority complex wrt France though on some things (high speed rail being one, bathrooms being another) they have them soundly beat

E2A even if HS2 somehow is as swanky and cool as freccia rossa i bet the price per mile travelled in the UK will be significantly higher, given that it already is on the slow UK trains. The turin-Milan route, which is roughly equivalent to London-Mancheste, takes 2 hours on the slow train (12 euro fixed price) and 1 hour on the fast train (max price 32 euro if booked on the same day, normally much cheaper if booked in advance)


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It seems it's very first world problems being anticipated. Band visa forms, cross border transportation of dogs to second homes, impoverished stock brokers.


It's more than a 'first world problem' when it's your livelihood. Strange, I thought you of all people would have more support and empathy for struggling musicians and the arts, but here you are lumping them in with 'impoverished stock brokers.'


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The sound of bleating will keep us all awake at night for the first week.


Beyond that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

agricola said:


> The mid-afternoon break in services was certainly annoying, but coming from a (reasonably populated, at least in Welsh terms) place where the nearest station was an hour's walk to catch an hourly service I must say I've never really thought we had a great coverage or frequency of trains.


It depends where you are in the UK. SE England is well connected. Wales isn't.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 27, 2020)

Crispy said:


> HS2 is going to be one of the fastest, most intensively run railways in the world. It very much will be world-class.



And I'm sure our great great great great grandkids will have a grand old time travelling in such luxury between two cities which will, by then, both be in the sea.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> I mostly regret not staying, to be honest.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


>





The39thStep said:


>


What are you trying to achieve here?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck me. Education exchange opportunites are just an elite concern? How the fuck did you get to such a stupid place?


Lack of University education.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Ignoring your deceitful spin for a moment, you'll have to elaborate on the anti capitalist solution that Brexit is offering.  Still you must be pleased for Boris for delivering the brave new future you voted for. Which is what, exactly? I'm still waiting for someone to explain the glorious benefits we'll all be enjoying in return for spunking untold billions down the drain and the empowering of racists and xenophobes.


You are spinning in this post so fast your bowler hat has fallen off. 

Going to organise a Support The City event?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are spinning in this post so fast your bowler hat has fallen off.
> 
> Going to organise a Support The City event?


You appear to be in the middle of a Support The Tories mission yourself. Your response to the end of Erasmus for the UK was some irrelevant story about your son arranging his own study in Canada. Reminded me of Kenneth Clarke, whose response when Education Minister to a question about student hardship in the face of the latest grant cut was that students are a resourceful lot. 

Well done. You are now a Tory.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You appear to be in the middle of a Support The Tories mission yourself. Your response to the end of Erasmus for the UK was some irrelevant story about your son arranging his own study in Canada. Reminded me of Kenneth Clarke, whose response when Education Minister to a question about student hardship in the face of the latest grant cut was that students are a resourceful lot.
> 
> Well done. You are now a Tory.


I thought editor went peak remoaner earlier but you have soared above him.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Please, more talk of delayed wine imports and the lack of the Euro arrest warrant.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

You don't have any reply, though, do you? So you're reduced to belittling the concerns of others or pretending that it's all just about middle class wankers who deserve to lose out.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

I think we're all a little guilty of falling into a culture wars trap with brexit and all this bullshit about EU membership being the best thing that ever happened or conversely a complete waste of time has very adequately distracted comrades who largely agree on a wide range of issues from making any progress, at all, regarding those issues. It is often thoroughly depressing to read this thread.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

3rd fuck it of the day


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> How does the pricing compare?




Generally cheaper, but they are catching up with the U.K.’s rip off levels.


----------



## krtek a houby (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> After a week in captivity without food the cabinet will be ready to be live exported



And oven ready


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> There are some heartfelt issues raised here by ordinary folk  What the European Union has meant to us


Cor blimey guv it was great to read about the   impacts on ordinary people.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

Imagine that you never went to Uni, that foreign holidays are an absurd dream and being able to tour Europe as apart of a band an even more vain ambition. In other words, imagine that you're not one of the professional middle class. That's millions of ordinary working class folks in this country. Now try to imagine how out of touch some PMC type whining about such things might sound to someone who's never benefited. And no, slapping the EU flag on some token efforts at patching the vast gaps left by neoliberal shite is _not_ sufficient grounds for such folks to fall in love with the EU.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Cor blimey guv it was great to read about the   impacts on ordinary people.



All PMC types I can't help but notice!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Generally cheaper, but they are catching up with the U.K.’s rip off levels.



Booked in advance UK trains aren't to dissimilar from European trains but that supposes you are aware of a) what time your travelling, b) know you want to go to a specific place 4 weeks in advance, instead of just rocking up and going to the seaside cos its a nice day or heading into London to catch up with a mate.

If you suddenly need to go to Manchester or something your fucked.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You don't have any reply, though, do you? So you're reduced to belittling the concerns of others or pretending that it's all just about middle class wankers who deserve to lose out.


It's over,  we are out. When you stop whinging about this I might just stop ripping the piss out of your ridiculous attitudes.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> All PMC types I can't help but notice!


Innit. Professional viola players and EU employees .


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

It would be great and useful if say all the keyworker sectors were interviewed about the impacts of leaving.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

Indeed.


TopCat said:


> I thought editor went peak remoaner earlier but you have soared above him.


Is this all you can do now? Throw around random insults?


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

All professional musicians are very rich and posh and it’ll do them good to fuck off and get proper jobs.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Indeed.
> 
> Is this all you can do now? Throw around random insults?


Have a look at your own behaviour. Your contribution to this thread has essentially been a repetition that brexit is shit and brexiteers are thick racists.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

My insults are not random btw.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You are spinning in this post so fast your bowler hat has fallen off.
> 
> Going to organise a Support The City event?


Making comments on someone's personal appearance is never, ever a classy look here, neither is your wilful misrepresentation of what I said.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Imagine that you never went to Uni, that foreign holidays are an absurd dream and being able to tour Europe as apart of a band an even more vain ambition. In other words, imagine that you're not one of the professional middle class. That's millions of ordinary working class folks in this country. Now try to imagine how out of touch some PMC type whining about such things might sound to someone who's never benefited. And no, slapping the EU flag on some token efforts at patching the vast gaps left by neoliberal shite is _not_ sufficient grounds for such folks to fall in love with the EU.


Wait. So now it's only members of the 'professional middle class' who ever get to play gigs in Europe?  You clearly don't know many musicians.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Have a look at your own behaviour. Your contribution to this thread has essentially been a repetition that brexit is shit and brexiteers are thick racists.


Can you show me one quote - just the one will do - where I assert that ALL Brexiteers are "thick racists"? Thanks. 

But are you insisting that the rise of xenophobia and racism has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit? In which case, have a read: 









						Brexit 'major influence' in racism and hate crime rise
					

Community officers are being appointed around Wales to help deal with "tensions" in some areas.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				











						Racism rising since Brexit vote, nationwide study reveals
					

Survey shows 71% of people from ethnic minorities faced discrimination, up from 58%




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Wait. So now it's only members of the 'professional middle class' who ever get to play gigs in Europe?  You clearly don't know many musicians,



No, I'm in agreement with you that it's practically a rite of passage for working class kids in the UK to do tours of Europe. Right after their skiing holidays in the Alps.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> No, I'm in agreement with you that it's practically a rite of passage for working class kids in the UK to do tours of Europe. Right after their skiing holidays in the Alps.


What a strange and bizarre strawman you're building here.


----------



## Maltin (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Imagine that you never went to Uni, that foreign holidays are an absurd dream and being able to tour Europe as apart of a band an even more vain ambition. In other words, imagine that you're not one of the professional middle class.


You think that working class people don't go on holidays overseas?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 27, 2020)

The price of everything and the value of nothing.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> No, I'm in agreement with you that it's practically a rite of passage for working class kids in the UK to do tours of Europe. Right after their skiing holidays in the Alps.


 

That is shite and you know it


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> What a strange and bizarre strawman you're building here.



Exactly. So it _is_ a small minority who get the luxury of touring Europe, right?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

4th fuck it of the day


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Have a look at your own behaviour. Your contribution to this thread has essentially been a repetition that brexit is shit and brexiteers are thick racists.


Not all brexiteers, for others it's a vital first step on the road to full communism.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

Maltin said:


> You think that working class people don't go on holidays overseas?



I know that I definitely couldn't afford that shit when earning minimum wage. I had more important things to spend the money on. Folks who can afford to swan off on some holly-jollies are definitely the minority among the social circles I live in.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Imagine that you never went to Uni, that foreign holidays are an absurd dream and being able to tour Europe as apart of a band an even more vain ambition. In other words, imagine that you're not one of the professional middle class. That's millions of ordinary working class folks in this country. Now try to imagine how out of touch some PMC type whining about such things might sound to someone who's never benefited. And no, slapping the EU flag on some token efforts at patching the vast gaps left by neoliberal shite is _not_ sufficient grounds for such folks to fall in love with the EU.



Plenty of working class musicians have played gigs in Europe, come on. This is exactly what I mean about useless exaggeration about hypothetical beneficiaries and non-beneficiaries of EU membership. It's not just the middle class who go on foreign holidays either, plenty of working class people go to Spain every year. What % of the British population have never been on a single foreign holiday? I bet its a much smaller % than in many/most other European countries


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Plenty of working class musicians have played gigs in Europe, come on. This is exactly what I mean about useless exaggeration about hypothetical beneficiaries and non-beneficiaries of EU membership. It's not just the middle class who go on foreign holidays either, plenty of working class people go to Spain every year. What % of the British population have never been on a single foreign holiday? I bet its a much smaller % than in many/most other European countries



Most working class folk aren't even musicians, let alone ones big enough to tour Europe. If you want to be serious about uselessly exaggerated benefits, then I think the discussion should be moved on from the gig thing.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

The fact that most working class people are not musicians has no bearing on the fact that a sizable chunk are and that plenty of have them toured outside the UK without becoming PMC tarquins. But I agree the musician/gig thing is just 1 very small aspect of this whole thing.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Most working class folk aren't even musicians, let alone ones big enough to tour Europe. If you want to be serious about uselessly exaggerated benefits, then I think the discussion should be moved on from the gig thing.


You seem to think a band has to be 'big' to play gigs in Europe. That is total fucking bollocks. And for many bands, tours are anything but 'luxurious.'



NoXion said:


> Exactly. So it _is_ a small minority who get the luxury of touring Europe, right?


You appear to be claiming that playing gigs in Europe is solely a middle class occupation which of, course, is another load of ignorant bollocks.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

People I know who toured Europe doing gigs were mostly doing so in between signing on days. Much harder to do now of course. #brexitisn'ttheonlybadthingintheworld


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Plenty of working class musicians have played gigs in Europe, come on. This is exactly what I mean about useless exaggeration about hypothetical beneficiaries and non-beneficiaries of EU membership. It's not just the middle class who go on foreign holidays either, plenty of working class people go to Spain every year. What % of the British population have never been on a single foreign holiday? I bet its a much smaller % than in many/most other European countries


Around 27 % . Its in the middle for EU countries


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Isn't the musician thing a simple example that some things are worse now (or in a few days) than they were before leaving the EU?
I imagine there will be a lot of other examples of deterioration to set alongside probably no examples of benefits whatsoever.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> People I know who toured Europe doing gigs were mostly doing so in between signing on days. Much harder to do now of course. #brexitisn'ttheonlybadthingintheworld


We managed to blag a short tour of Austria when I was a kid and we had to fit in in-between signing on days. There was 8 of us in a transit van with all the gear. We slept in the van a couple of nights. The biggest ballache was having to get a carnet paid for and sorted out, and we were 2 hours late for one gig because we had undergo a border check where the guards made us take all the equipment out and generally fuck us about. 

Aye, it was right middle class luxury.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I think we're all a little guilty of falling into a culture wars trap with brexit and all this bullshit about EU membership being the best thing that ever happened or conversely a complete waste of time has very adequately distracted comrades who largely agree on a wide range of issues from making any progress, at all, regarding those issues. It is often thoroughly depressing to read this thread.


I think this, excuse the long rambling...

We have engaged in a fairly stupid but not surprising act of self-destruction that has predictably strengthened prevailing capital interests and in doing so, not as the main event, it will have worsened our conditions. I think back to those who said that a brawl between two factions of capital wasn't their fight and I have some sympathy for that but I think we still tangibly lost. I think a lot of it is regrettable, most particularly the concessions and allowances the public have made, the disconnect between actions and consequences, and the unlikeliness of learning anything valuable from the entire experience. Nonetheless it is not that major a change and no major change is forthcoming. What it has done is damaged or removed the thin layer of social benefits that were provided as compensation, so we as individuals are worse off, but those benefits were inversely proportionate to one's position in society, so it is largely true that all this stuff is 'middle class'. I'll come back to that. Either way the great Brexit debacle is now done and whilst it will have hotly debated consequences it's not likely to be seriously reevaluated any time soon.

That said, this whole first bit is in many ways a waste of time because, in the absence of a great disruptor, global capital will, like water, find its level and it would be wholly unsurprising if we ended up fully back in the EU in my lifetime, without ever having any need for vocal Brejoin.

Then there's the culture war which in many ways is independent of Brexit and exists to either consolidate power in itself, or as a distraction from doing so. All of this stuff about worsening conditions for the middle class is a good if not enormously important example of it, as Winot pointed out earlier. There's a distinct absence of structural analysis in favour of identity stereotypes. It ought to matter more whether these things favour structural inequality that manifests in power relationships, like landlordism or exploiting employment, and if they don't then why are we fighting over them? Is 'middle class' in this context just an ability to consume more or live more lavishly under the same system? So what? Are we really in pursuit of the lowest common denominator amongst ourselves before addressing any higher structures?

Britain and particularly England is going to have to come to terms with what it is or perhaps more importantly isn't. I think the short term outlook for this is poor and we are sliding further backwards from an already negative starting point. In the ways that mattered, we were not really beholden to the EU. We should have confronted that the British state chose to do almost all of what it did, and that continues. I think we the English will for some time continue to empower those responsible for our problems - as we have in this entire enterprise - whilst trying to give each other a kicking for it. I think we deluded ourselves that it was an obsessive 'get Brexit done' mentality that sustained our national politics as they are but think time will show that to be false. I think in time this will probably result in something a lot more fash but I don't know what yet. It's hard to see what positives will flow from it any time soon but before we can think about that we need to get our own house in order and stop doing the very opposite of what we said we would do: establishing solidarity and not fighting capital's culture war.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Weird, as the Czech Republic wasn't in the EU until 2004 and even now doesn't really use the Euro



aye, forgot it was Czech crowns then! I think I just did the mental conversion in my head at the time then remembered the equivalent amounts now (which were probably pounds rather than Euros tbh). And there was a (snowy) border where passport control misprounced most people’s names comically, and made some of us get out of the van and walk over the border in sub-zero temperatures because there weren’t proper seats in the back (we walked about half a mile past the border then jumped back in)

This was more as an example of bands not needing £200 per night to tour than specifically about borders, I think the years I did tours (either playing or freeloading with friends bands) did see some changes as things opened up more, first one was pre-Schengen I think, which came in during 95.  It could be done dirt cheap with friends and imagination, quit my job for a three week tour once and got by spending only £20 including a bit of duty free, bargain for a holiday like that.  Just a shame it took about a month to get another job which left me particularly skint (no dole for leaving a job voluntarily).


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

Dogsauce said:


> This was more as an example of bands not needing £200 per night to tour than specifically about borders, I think the years I did tours (either playing or freeloading with friends bands) did see some changes as things opened up more, first one was pre-Schengen I think, which came in during 95.  It could be done dirt cheap with friends and imagination, quit my job for a three week tour once and got by spending only £20 including a bit of duty free, bargain for a holiday like that.  Just a shame it took about a month to get another job which left me particularly skint (no dole for leaving a job voluntarily).


It's incredibly easy for a band to play around Europe for next to nothing. It's now more common for venues to provide full backline, so it's just a case of the musicians getting over there by coach/train/van and finding somewhere to sleep. Some venues offer rudimentary accommodation too, or there's usually other bands/friends/fans willing to offer some floor space.
This notion that it's only well off middle class musicians who get to play outside of the UK is embarrassingly naïve and ignorant.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> You seem to think a band has to be 'big' to play gigs in Europe. That is total fucking bollocks. And for most bands, tours are anything but 'luxurious.'
> 
> You appear to be claiming getting to play gigs in Europe solely a 'middle class' occupation which of, course, is another load of ignorant bollocks.



I haven't mentioned luxury once, you brought that up. You want to accuse me of a strawman, that's fine, but it's hypocrisy that really grinds my gears.

I get that you're upset about your music friends having to pay more to do their thing, but I'm sure you understand that gigs and stuff are luxuries, so the complaints about carnets etc can sound really off when they're being talked about in the context of the current economy.

Besides, when you say things like this:



editor said:


> It's incredibly easy for a band to play around Europe for next to nothing.



You undermine your own argument. Any other type of business that can operate around Europe cheaply, but then complains when it has to pay a little extra, would get rightfully pilloried on here.



littlebabyjesus said:


> People I know who toured Europe doing gigs were mostly doing so in between signing on days. Much harder to do now of course. #brexitisn'ttheonlybadthingintheworld



Damn, imagine having to pay money to pursue your hobby activities. I think the EU should subsidise my hobbies, where's my extra cash for a new graphics card? Can I get allowances if I stream my games?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Good luck to skint musicians wherever. 
However theres more to this than it being harder to sign on and go touring.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Occasionally I read it said about rejoining the EU the institution the UK was at the heart of shaping.
Leaving aside the technical merits or de merits, I wonder why on earth the UK free EU would accept a return of the UK, after the UK has given them a massive fuck you and caused so much distraction and disruption.
For that reason I find it difficult to see the UK being accepted back.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I haven't mentioned luxury once, you brought that up. You want to accuse me of a strawman, that's fine, but it's hypocrisy that really grinds my gears.





NoXion said:


> Exactly. So it _is_ a small minority who get the *luxury of touring Europe*, right?


Oops!


NoXion said:


> I get that you're upset about your music friends having to pay more to do their thing, but I'm sure you understand that gigs and stuff are luxuries, so the complaints about carnets etc can sound really off when they're being talked about in the context of the current economy.


And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.



NoXion said:


> Damn, imagine having to pay money to pursue your hobby activities


Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not. Why do you keep trying to put musicians down?



> The *UK music industry* contributed £5.2 billion to the *UK* economy in 2018, up from £4.5 billion the previous year.
> The total *export* revenue of the *music industry* was £2.7 billion in 2018, up from £2.6 billion in 2017.
> Employment in the *industry*hit an all-time high of 190,935 in 2018.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Oops!
> And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.
> 
> Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not.


A pursuit is more a hobby when it doesn't pay it's way no? Gigs in Berlin for €300 euros seem to fit that bill.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Oops!
> And there go about luxuries again. Music is not a 'luxury' and neither is being a musician some kind of hobby.



Last I checked, people don't die for lack of live music.



> Why do you keep on insisting that music is a hobby? It's not.



Ah, so it's a _business_, and should therefore bear its own operational costs?


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Good luck to skint musicians wherever.
> However theres more to this than it being harder to sign on and go touring.


Good job that no one was making that claim. But your lack of support and empathy for musicians (and, indeed the entire arts industry as many will be equally affected) is duly noted.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A pursuit is more a hobby when it doesn't pay it's way no? Gigs in Berlin for €300 euros seem to fit that bill.


Whereas someone really popular in Berlin, say David Hasslehoff, would earn enough to do the admin.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true looking at this thread, turnips for all and be grateful. What a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> A pursuit is more a hobby when it doesn't pay it's way no? Gigs in Berlin for €300 euros seem to fit that bill.


I really can't be bothered to deal with this patronising, dismissive shit. Is someone doing work placement just indulging in a hobby too? There's plenty of occupations that don't make much money when you start off and it's not unusual for cafes, shops and small businesses to make a loss in their first few years too. Are they all to be dismissed as hobbyists too?


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Please, more talk of delayed wine imports and the lack of the Euro arrest warrant.



You seem to be arguing that although we are losing some things with practical applications, none of those things are of particular importance in your opinion. Can you list some practical things of particular importance that we are gaining?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> You seem to be arguing that although we are losing some things with practical applications, none of those things are of particular importance in your opinion. Can you list some practical things of particular importance that we are gaining?


The list has one item of importance. 
We voted leave, we got to leave.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true, what a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.


Yep. The attacks on musicians here - and the attempts to paint them all as middle class hobbyists enjoying luxury trips abroad - really makes for depressing reading.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Oops!


You know full well he meant luxury in the sense of being able to go off playing music around Europe rather than it being all room service and complimentary biscuits, don't be disingenuous


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The list has one item of importance.
> We voted leave, we got to leave.


Instead of parroting a Farage-like mantra, why don't you answer his question?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> What mauvais said about the dogged pursuit of the lowest common denominator feels true looking at this thread, turnips for all and be grateful. What a massively depressing and shit way of looking at the world and a total dead end. In the meantime, whilst we are busy attacking all those upstart musicians the people with 2nd homes in France will be just fine.



Those "upstart musicians" are in a business, nay an industry. Or so I'm told.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

[/QUOTE]





editor said:


> Instead of parroting a Farage-like mantra, why don't you answer his question?


I voted leave, we left. 
Like a divorce. Not living in the shed. 
Fuck your Farage btw. I raise you Blair.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> You know full well he meant luxury in the sense of being able to go off playing music around Europe rather than it being all room service and complimentary biscuits, don't be disingenuous


He's describing being able to tour as a 'luxury' for musicians. Do you agree with that view?  Is it a luxury for anyone having to occasionally travel aboard for work, or only musicians?


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The list has one item of importance.
> We voted leave, we got to leave.



And this is of practical benefit to anybody how?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Those "upstart musicians" are in a business, nay an industry. Or so I'm told.


Travelling players, fed at each inn they entertain.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> And this is of practical benefit to anybody how?


Do you understand when a divorce happens?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Good luck to skint musicians wherever.
> However theres more to this than it being harder to sign on and go touring.


Exactly. This is just one fuck up out of a thousand.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I voted leave, we left.
> Like a divorce. Not living in the shed.
> Fuck your Farage btw. I raise you Blair.


Yes. And as you and Farage say, Leave Means Leave.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> He's describing being able to tour as a 'luxury' for musicians. Do you agree with that view?  Is it a luxury for anyone having to occasionally travel aboard for work, or only musicians?



Traveling abroad for work, how fancy. OK, so you've made it clear that you're talking about musicians operating as part of an industry. So you are quite literally complaining because businesses have to pay more.

Like I said earlier, isn't that the kind of thing that usually gets mocked around these parts? Unless it's an industry we happen to work in or like, I guess?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Yes. And as you and Farage say, Leave Means Leave.


I dont ever recollect using that phrase. Do you?


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Those "upstart musicians" are in a business, nay an industry. Or so I'm told.


Learn for yourself: 


> Economic work released shows true value of core UK music industry.
> 
> *£3.5bn the economic contribution of the core UK music industry*
> 
> This is made up of: £1.6bn from musicians, composers and songwriters; £634 m from recorded music; £662m from live music; £402m from music publishing; £151m from music representatives; £80m from music producers, recording studios; £1.4bn the value of exports; 101,680 full time jobs.







__





						True Value of Music Industry to UK Economy Revealed
					

UK Music have release an in-depth report into the music industry’s contribution to the economy.




					www.ukmusic.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

4 years after the ref and we're still having the same fucking arguments about this shit.

Life must be so much easier on the right, all you have to do is focus on the money.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Traveling abroad for work, how fancy. OK, so you've made it clear that you're talking about musicians operating as part of an industry. So you are quite literally complaining because businesses have to pay more.


I am quite literally talking about how smaller bands are going to suffer, but that was an excellent attempt at twisting the argument there.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

It's great we can talk about Brexit without falling back on the old "look who voted the same as YOU, nerr nerr beer" trope innit


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

We could have had a different brexit bar that peoples vote debacle. Likely we would not now have this Tory govt either.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I dont ever recollect using that phrase. Do you?


So you disagreed with the phrase 'Leave Means Leave'?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> So you disagreed with the phrase 'Leave Means Leave'?


I voted leave. Is it not clear that I wanted the uk to leave?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> So you disagreed with the phrase 'Leave Means Leave'?


Shall I throw up some Mandelson quote at you now?


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Those "upstart musicians" are in a business, nay an industry. Or so I'm told.





TopCat said:


> Travelling players, fed at each inn they entertain.


I don’t know what these are supposed to mean. Something like fuck them, the silly posh music-mongers ? It’s so stupid I don’t even think there’s anything much to say tbh. I know a few musicians , after this year we’ve had half of them are facing eviction already, they’re a really bad target for this idiot version of class war.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Shall I throw up some Mandelson quote at you now?


I've no idea why you would, or why you think it's relevant.

But as a Brexit fan, why don't you finally start explaining the benefits we're all going to be enjoying now that's it's happened?

I've already explained how it's going to impact on me and my fellow musicians negatively when it comes to work, but you've made it clear that you don't give a shit about that, so why not tell what are the benefits I'll soon be enjoying?


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

bimble said:


> I don’t know what these are supposed to mean. Something like fuck them, the silly posh music-mongers ? It’s so stupid I don’t even think there’s anything much to say tbh. I know a few musicians , after this year we’ve had half of them are facing eviction already, they’re a really bad target for this idiot version of class war.


Absolutely. I'm actually a bit shocked by some of the attitudes being posted here.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I am quite literally talking about how smaller bands are going to suffer, but that was an excellent attempt at twisting the argument there.



No you're not. You're going on about how how the music business is this big important industry, and then equivocating by bringing up starving artists. So which is it? Given the figures you're provided, I'm leaning towards it being an industry, which if it wanted to, could potentially engage in lobbying for its interests, you know, like what other industries do under capitalism.



bimble said:


> I don’t know what these are supposed to mean. Something like fuck them, the silly posh music-mongers ?



No. I was pointing out that it's a fucking business, an industry. So complaints about having to meet the operational costs of working in that industry ring hollow.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I've no idea why you would, or why you think it's relevant.
> 
> But as a Brexit fan, why don't you finally start explaining the benefits we're all going to be enjoying now that's it's happened?
> 
> I've already explained how it's going to impact on me and my fellow musicians negatively when it comes to work, but you've made it clear that you don't give a shit about that, so why not tell what are the benefits I'll soon be enjoying?


You brought up a link to a Farage quote and asked I agreed with it. You know this. It's only a few posts ago.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm stone cold sober. What's your excuse for inventing low, dishonest claims that I've been arguing for "preferential treatment over African or Asian bands"?
> 
> I want things to be made easier for_ all_ bands to play anywhere, and if you know anything about touring and playing abroad, you'd know that as it stands, Brexit is going to make things a lot worse.


I'm a non-combatant on the bands and brexit thing, though I'm sure it is going to be worse. However it's worth noting that the _whole EU_ is about preferential treatment over Asian and African economies.

I'm also several pages behind...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.


Ambition, sex, drugs, job avoidance.


----------



## pesh (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Last I checked, people don't die for lack of live music.


Check harder. 
I've had friends kill themselves this year after losing all their work, then all hope.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

_So this is Brexit
And what have you done?
Another year over
And a new one just begun_

With the transition period down to it's last 104 hours, the trade deal agreed, (subject to Parliamentary ratification), and the relevant thread losing it relevance & becoming ever more fractious, maybe it's time to commence _another Brexit thread  _in which posters can discuss the actual reality of the decision to leave the supra-state?

What actually happens?
Does anything change? For the better/for the worse? For whom?
Sunlit uplands, the slough of despond or just the same shite?

What is project Brexit reality like for you and me?

And, hey...let's all play nicely, eh?

Maybe there'll be nothing to say until the trucks start to queue up on the runway of the former "Kent International" airport once again?


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.


Because playing live music to people from lots of different places is really fulfilling, meeting people face to face and making connections across distance is really important artistically imo.

Its def not an industry ha. Not just w hobby either though, even though it doesnt pay the bills.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.


Build up a following, make contacts, sell records, sell merchandise, maybe get on some local TV/radio stations and maybe get to meet local promoters or festival organisers. Even before the various flavours of lockdown, there was a rapidly decreasing pool of live venues available, so Europe provided more opportunities for gigs - in fact, pre-Brexit, it could be just as easy for a London band to play France that somewhere up North.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Ambition, sex, drugs, job avoidance.


None of these.

There are far easier ways of fulfilling all 4.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.



Because it's a laugh and they like playing music and getting paid for it?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Hi!


----------



## agricola (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> Clearly you have never been to Lancaster
> 
> Re: HS2 - i highly doubt the trains will be as comfortable and swish as the freccia rossa in Italy. Italy also has a big inferiority complex wrt France though on some things (high speed rail being one, bathrooms being another) they have them soundly beat
> 
> E2A even if HS2 somehow is as swanky and cool as freccia rossa i bet the price per mile travelled in the UK will be significantly higher, given that it already is on the slow UK trains. The turin-Milan route, which is roughly equivalent to London-Mancheste, takes 2 hours on the slow train (12 euro fixed price) and 1 hour on the fast train (max price 32 euro if booked on the same day, normally much cheaper if booked in advance)



Not recently.  Lancaster does (or at least did) have the best under-castle pub in the world though.


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do you understand when a divorce happens?



I do, yes; I likely have more practical experience of the processes of divorces than the average person, from both my personal and professional lives.

So let me try to extrapolate an answer to my question from your posited analogy.

Divorces involve many disbenefits of different kinds to both parties; financially both parties will be worse off in the short to medium term, and in the case of the financially weaker party (the UK in this case) likely in the long and foreseeable term too.  There are obviously immediate practical disbenefits too - ie having to arrange the divorce terms; in a case where the parties have to continue dealing with each other (for example children, or shared trade, or one could look two geographical blocks having to stay next to each other like a divorced couple having to continue living in the same house) there will have to be continued arrangements too, which all-too-often (and certainly much more often than not) are contiuned sources of acrimony (and hence disbenefit) as well.

Divorcing parties bear these large and long-term financial and practical disbenefits because they cannot at an emotional level countenance continuing to live together.   They consider the emotional benefit worth all the practical disbenefits.

I extract from this that your answer might mean that you recognise there are no practical benefits from leaving the EU, however you were made so emotionally unhappy by living in a UK that was part of the EU that any disbenefit from leaving is outweighed by the emotional benefit of removing that source of unhappiness.  Is this close to a correct summary?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because it's a laugh and they like playing music and getting paid for it?


This plus my other post.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You brought up a link to a Farage quote and asked I agreed with it. You know this. It's only a few posts ago.


Here's the bit you forgot to answer. Be great if you could explain because then I might understand your enthusiasm for Brexit and why the benefits are so great that you're seemingly happy for musicians to be collateral damage in all this.



> But as a Brexit fan, why don't you finally start explaining the benefits we're all going to be enjoying now that's it's happened?
> 
> I've already explained how it's going to impact on me and my fellow musicians negatively when it comes to work, but you've made it clear that you don't give a shit about that, so why not tell what are the benefits I'll soon be enjoying?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Hi!


Hiya!
Excited?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> _So this is Brexit
> And what have you done?
> Another year over
> And a new one just begun_
> ...


Kent international offers flights to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland


----------



## Badgers (Dec 27, 2020)

Don’t break the Sunday Truce.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

pesh said:


> Check harder.
> I've had friends kill themselves this year after losing all their work, then all hope.



That's because a novel coronavirus pandemic started this year and is still on-going. That was always going to fuck with any industry involving live events. That's rather more impactful than having to pay extra to tour Europe. Even musicians without European ambitions have been fucked.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> I do, yes; I likely have more practical experience of the processes of divorces than the average person, from both my personal and professional lives.
> 
> So let me try to extrapolate an answer to my question from your posited analogy.
> 
> ...


Do you remember that Viz character?  Your writing style hinders understanding of your arguments.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Hiya!
> Exited?


FTFY


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Because it's a laugh and they like playing music and getting paid for it?


DAMN those people finding a job that they enjoy.


----------



## pesh (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> That's because a novel coronavirus pandemic started this year and is still on-going. That was always going to fuck with any industry involving live events. That's rather more impactful than having to pay extra to tour Europe. Even musicians without European ambitions have been fucked.


wanker tbh


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Kent international offers flights to Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland


& England?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do you remember that Viz character?  Your writing style hinders understanding of your arguments.



Ok try this:

Do you believe that it doesn’t matter if there are no practical benefits to leaving the EU because it simply makes you happier not to be part of it?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
> Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
> I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.



Oh good grief.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It would be great and useful if say all the keyworker sectors were interviewed about the impacts of leaving.



As one of those keyworkers majority of people I work wiith ( in inner London) were Remain.

Yes it would be good if Guardian did interview working class keyworkers. But I don't think that the opionions would be necessarily positive about leaving.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am not surprised that a confessed brexit voter struggles to see the value in music (and possibly all creative activities). It is all a bit Jacob Rees Mogg to talk of travelling musicians paid at taverns where they entertain.
> Mind you I do feel a bit cheered up to realise I didn't vote the same way as that wanker, but depressed that he is a winner along with his fellow travellers Farage, Yaxley Lennon, Rabb and so on.
> I think music is a very cool thing, and it has the added element that is is a force capable of crossing borders, mind you brexit voters voted to 'control borders', so the distain shown towards music suggests they may feel threatened by the universality of the art form.


I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> & England?


those are the international destinations but you can fly to prestigious english locations from ki eg humberside


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> Ok try this:
> 
> Do you believe that it doesn’t matter if there are no practical benefits to leaving the EU because it simply makes you happier not to be part of it?


The political benefits, for me outweigh any practical disbenefits as it stands.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.



There's that equivocation again. Conflating music as an art form with music as an industry.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I think music is a very cool thing


thank you for sharing that insight


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Maybe we should start making a list of the things that it doesn't matter that we'll lose or will become harder or more expensive. We'll get over it, or something. 


Food other than what's in season in the UK. 

Foreign holidays.

Playing live music around Europe. 

Playing _the viola _anywhere (cunts). 

Studying abroad. 

Working abroad.

Getting ill abroad.


What else is there that we really just need to fucking get over?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe we should start making a list of the things that it doesn't matter that we'll lose or will become harder or more expensive. We'll get over it, or something.
> 
> 
> Food other than what's in season in the UK.
> ...


Just yourself


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The political benefits, for me outweigh any practical disbenefits as it stands.



That’s absolutely fair enough, of course.

What are the political benefits you see?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> As one of those keyworkers majority of people I work wiith ( in inner London) were Remain.
> 
> Yes it would be good if Guardian did interview working class keyworkers. But I don't think that the opionions would be necessarily positive about leaving.


I wouldn't make assumptions myself. It just might seem more relevant if concerns about brexit from a working class perspective were aired. I would certainly pay attention. 
It's hard to take this talk of horror from professional viola players etc.


----------



## Leafster (Dec 27, 2020)

I was supposed to be having some upgrades to my central heating done before Christmas. The parts were ordered from Germany at the beginning of December and the company normally ships stuff in about a week. They didn't arrive in time and the German company is now being a bit vague about delivery saying it's probably going to be the end of January. I don't know whether the problem is Brexit or COVID related. All I know is their UK website will no longer take orders paid for via credit card until "new customs regulations" are in place.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Oh good grief.


Is he out of his bed now?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> those are the international destinations but you can fly to prestigious english locations from ki eg humberside


I thought that the tories had in mind that Kent was, once again after an interregnum of 1150 years, a Kingdom apart with it's own border and permits to enter?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> DAMN those people finding a job that they enjoy.


I always thought you were a photographer or have I got you mixed up with another one of the mods


----------



## chilango (Dec 27, 2020)

I've a simple question.

In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?

Not big picture stuff. Not ideas stuff. Not a refight of that tiresome shit debate. Just concrete changes to my life that can be attributed directly to Brexit.

I can think of a few (though not many) things that will become worse and/or more difficult. 

...but I can't think of anything material that I will notice an improvement in.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.


About €300 a gig

Or is that what a Grecian earns?  I forget.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> There's that equivocation again. Conflating music as an art form with music as an industry.


There are a lot of blurred areas between the 2 though. If it was just an industry then you wouldn't get anyone working in it for 300 euros between 4 people per gig.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> bimble — if you want to understand more about the cosmopolitan elite associations of “enjoying the cultural EU” being a cultural split between posh remainers and working-class leavers, I suggest you have a look at this paper that I posted earlier
> For example, this is a relevant passage:



Just read this,

Will add it as its not in quoted post.

One thing about the paper relevant here is that the analysis of the interviews found that there could be some common ground in post Brexit UK.

The paper argues that the reasons for being Remain or Brexit are not clear cut.

For example some who were going to vote Leave thought that being in EU was holding Britain back from having its own international relationships with rest of World. So Leave vote was not all insular little Englander.

I think the paper was trying to put forward the case that bridges could be built between the Leave/ Remain divide that is present in the country ( and on this thread) as the country moves to post Brexit UK in the future.

This is optimistic imo under this hard right Tory government.

But the paper is useful for putitng the idea forward.

How to actually do it in the present atmosphere is a real problem.

( to add the paper is based on interviews with focus groups from different parts of England ( yes only England). Breakdown by social class and whether male or female)

Thanks for posting it up kabbes I have issues with some of it but considering the recent posts it does chart a possible way to move forward from Brexit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The political benefits, for me outweigh any practical disbenefits as it stands.


It feels like you and I must have been living on different planets over the past four years for you to see political benefits to brexit. 

Practical disbenefits are very much part of the politics here in any case. You cannot meaningfully separate the two. And when I look at who is being fucked over by brexit as it stands, all I can say is that I don't share your politics at all. My politics includes wanting things to get better for those people.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

I think a lot of this ire is rooted in outdated ideas of what class is, especially when it comes to defining middle class vs working class. The boundaries are not as firm as they used to be and it's easy to dismiss touring musicians as middle class when many of them aren't.

The relentless push of government towards uni as the only viable career path in the 90s means you can't necessarily see that as a marker of the middle classes. Nor can you see enjoying or touring Europe as a solely middle class thing. Plenty of drivers and truckers go abroad or workers hit the resort's as well.

Does Europe and free movement benefit the middle and upper class? Of course it does, because that's how the system works. But it does give gateways to get the fuck out of Britain to the working class, a gateway that's now been shut. While middle and upper classes can still pay the way out of here.

It's also worth noting there is a hollowing out of lower to middle, middle class roles now, automation and competition has fucked over university jobs and archaeology jobs and a bunch of roles you'd assume was well paid and sit down. With unis frequently paying less and less for staff and sticking them on zero hours. 

Happy left leavers see brexit as a celebration to leave Europe but at the moment the Tories are firmly in the driving seat. It's wishful thinking to assume anything good is going to come out of this soon. Eventually people will wise up I hope but the odds that we get s blow against capital out of this are slim and frankly I'm getting to old for this shit to wait it out. We have a firmly right government, a tame press and the current plans for making the most out of brexit all involve further tax cuts for the rich and we've just lost any surety on what the future holds for a huge swathe of service industries that are already barely breaking even on payday.



editor said:


> DAMN those people finding a job that they enjoy.



You know I voted remain and I think brexit is stupid right? Just checking here.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

chilango said:


> I've a simple question.
> 
> In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?
> 
> ...


Exactly what I thought we might be able to raise, illustrate and discuss here 
In about 104 hours we'll be able to do so with some clarity but, much as may like to, I don't think it's possible to limit any Brexit related discussion to purely practical, everyday matters when so many of the drivers were firmly rooted in the affective domain. But, then, hearing about how pro & anti views might modify over the unfolding months and years will, in itself, be quite interesting I think.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The political benefits



Can you summarise? Bullet points preferred.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> That’s absolutely fair enough, of course.
> 
> What are the political benefits you see?


There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.  
This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

chilango said:


> I've a simple question.
> 
> In practical, everyday, terms what improvements will I notice in my day to day life?
> 
> ...



Your passport will be blue and the papers won't have quite as many brexit front page stories.


----------



## chilango (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Your passport will be blue and the papers won't have quite as many brexit front page stories.



Neither true.

My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It feels like you and I must have been living on different planets over the past four years for you to see political benefits to brexit.
> 
> Practical disbenefits are very much part of the politics here in any case. You cannot meaningfully separate the two. And when I look at who is being fucked over by brexit as it stands, all I can say is that I don't share your politics at all. My politics includes wanting things to get better for those people.


You refused to look at who was getting fucked over by being in the EU, those who did not get the benefits. Worse, when it was pointed out you shrugged.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

chilango said:


> Neither true.
> 
> My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet



There will be a couple pages less I think because Boris Got Brexit done.

It'll be replaced with more Corona is the only thing wrong with the economy honest guv stories.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

I look forward to years of everything shit being blamed squarely on covid by leavers and on brexit by remainers.

There is no room for nuance. Everything is dead simple.


----------



## prunus (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
> This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.



Ok I’ll check in over there. I’m genuinely interested, because I think my political objectives are largely in line with yours(?) (broadly: redistribution of wealth, opportunity, privilege), yet I don’t see brexit as anything other than antithetical to those aims.


----------



## Cerv (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Ah, so it's a _business_, and should therefore bear its own operational costs?


doesn't follow that we need to go around artificially raising those costs to no wider benefit though.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

chilango said:


> Neither true.
> 
> My burgundy passport has about 8 years left on it and the papers will rattle on about Brexit for a while yet


Yes, I think we can be confident that the the billionaire press will be very keen to present any 'good' economic news as evidence of the _Brexit bonus _and cast blame for any downsides towards the supra-state's continued meddling in 'our' affairs as a result of the unfair deal.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

Cerv said:


> doesn't follow that we need to go around artificially raising those costs to no wider benefit though.



Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

prunus said:


> Ok I’ll check in over there. I’m genuinely interested, because I think my political objectives are largely in line with yours(?) (broadly: redistribution of wealth, opportunity, privilege), yet I don’t see brexit as anything other than antithetical to those aims.


I will be along in a bit. Probably early in the new year.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

I voted leave because I wanted out of the largely unaccountable neoliberal for-the-interests-of-capital EU. I also voted Labour to try and get rid of the right wing twats in charge in the UK. I voted on principle both times; not much else I could do and it's unfortunate I didn't get both as I would have preferred


----------



## mauvais (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> I voted leave because I wanted out of the largely unaccountable neoliberal for-the-interests-of-capital EU.


Given the balance of the agreed deal, what do you think about this now?


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

I voted leave, we left.
Like a divorce. Not living in the shed.
[/QUOTE]

The more bits and pieces of the actual agreement I see the more I think the living in the shed is a pretty good metaphor actually. Does not look like the UK has moved to a new town with its new girlfriend at all.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Exactly what I thought we might be able to raise, illustrate and discuss here
> In about 56 hours we'll be able to do so with some clarity but, much as may like to, I don't think it's possible to limit any Brexit related discussion to purely practical, everyday matters when so many of the drivers were firmly rooted in the affective domain. But, then, hearing about how pro & anti views might modify over the unfolding months and years will, in itself, be quite interesting I think.



This is what has been bugging me the last couple of days. I feel relief, but only the relief of being able to assess and process the coming fuckries. Moving on.

I'm sick of the 'claims' on either side after nearly half a decade. I'm also deeply depressed by the sharp split in the left in relation to Brexit allowing the English Nationalist Tory rump to shred the social floor and poke sticks in our sides for an apparent eternity. I can't see a way through this. The idea that the Waffling Haystack proposes that this has put the European argument to bed is risible. This shit will just rumble on, permanent grievance, permanent fantasy wish-fulfilment, on either side.

I want to be optimistic. 

_Subscribes to thread_


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.



I get the vibe that it _is_ being said. 
Along the lines of touring around parts Europe is some kind of non serious jolly up compared to real work.
If people are saying that music either as an art form or an industry is actually a good thing, then people getting better at it by touring around or playing gigs in places contributes to that kind of improvement.
I reckon an ace violinist for example is not born fully formed and able to play like Pagannini straight off, but probably went through hours of caterwauling practice in order to become any good.
Isn't that the nature of Arts generally? In order to have an Arts culture you have to accept that people are once beginners and need an opportunity to practice and hone their craft, and sometimes that process can't be monetised or measured in the same way other things are?
If you like, I wouldn't particularly say you learn to play the piano as much as by doing it you get better at it.
Hopefully at the same time people also get a sense of fulfillment and worth (whatever those things are, but they seem positive things).


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.


Nah this is total fantasy now.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

mauvais said:


> Given the balance of the agreed deal, what do you think about this now?


I'd do the same again.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Hiya!
> Excited?


Weary. Far more worried about covid to be fair.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Weary. Far more worried about covid to be fair.


That's fair perspective; it tells you something of the times we're living through that arguing amongst ourselves about Brexit amounts to something like light relief.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> That's fair perspective; it tells you something of the times we're living through that arguing amongst ourselves about Brexit amounts to something like light relief.


Well it is the dark days before New Year. Everything shut. Not even a three day guest to tut about.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 27, 2020)

I know the other thread is dealing with the weightier matters but ...









						Workers’ rights and environmental protections ‘easily eroded’ by Brexit trade deal, think tank warns
					

So-called ‘level playing field’ safeguards ‘considerably weaker than expected’ and ‘difficult to enforce’, says IPPR




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Workers’ rights and environmental protections can be watered down easily under the Brexit trade deal, a think tank is warning.
> 
> The so-called “level playing field” safeguards the EU believes it secured – one of the key clashes that threatened the agreement – will be “difficult to enforce”, the Institute for Public Policy Research (IPPR) said.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

What do people realistically think they will drop? It costs £900 minimum to go to an ET now. The EU didnt save us the Tory move that got us to that point.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.


Another list we could make: posters coming out with identical arguments to those of Tory ministers. 

When challenged over visas for scientists in the UK a while ago, a minister came out with more or less this argument - why should EU scientists be allowed to queue-jump? To which the angry response from those representing scientists was that 'you're the reason there is any fucking queue at all in the first place'. 

You don't actually believe this crap you're coming out with do you?


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
> This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.


Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.


You will keep asking with your fingers in your ears until no one is in the room but you.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 27, 2020)

We'll have a better feel for the financial and practical impacts on ordinary folk in 3-10 months. Right now, if anyone thought Brexit has been settled they are likely in for a rude shock, this is only the beginning of it. Expect way more division, finger pointing and rancour before it gets any better.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Wrong way round. Costs were artificially lowered by being in the white boys' neoliberal club. Musicians in other parts of the world still have to meet those costs.


What costs have 'artificially lowered' for white musicians? What extra costs do other musicians have to pay? I really have no idea what you're on about.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Surely it wouldn't take you long to knock out a bullet point list explaining all the great benefits that Brexit is going to bring to everyone? Lord knows, I've asked enough times but no one seems able to provide a response.


It’s because you’re looking for an instrumental construction in response to a question about identity.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> You will keep asking with your fingers in your ears until no one is in the room but you.


 You've spent long enough dismissing the plight of musicians, so I thought the least you could do would be to explain the clear cut benefits that Brexit will bring to us all. If you're unable to answer such a straightforward question, just say so.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> It’s because you’re looking for an instrumental construction in response to a question about identity.


So the Brucie bonus benefit is identity?  Great. Tell me more.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Another list we could make: posters coming out with identical arguments to those of Tory ministers.
> 
> When challenged over visas for scientists in the UK a while ago, a minister came out with more or less this argument - why should EU scientists be allowed to queue-jump? To which the angry response from those representing scientists was that 'you're the reason there is any fucking queue at all in the first place'.
> 
> You don't actually believe this crap you're coming out with do you?



How is it crap? If you want to work in many foreign countries, then you'll need a visa. That's the norm.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> How is it crap? If you want to work in many foreign countries, then you'll need a visa. That's the norm.


The logic of the argument is crap. _These restrictions exist_ therefore the imposition of similar restrictions on others isn't a bad thing.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> So the Brucie bonus benefit is identity?  Great. Tell me more.


What more do you need to know?  I’ve posted a paper twice now that is one of many attempts to grapple with this. Gramsci provided a decent summary of it.  If you’re _really _interested in the answer to the question rather than just employing a bad faith rhetorical device, why don’t you have a read of it and then see what you think?


----------



## Wilf (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Fuck me. Education exchange opportunites are just an elite concern? How the fuck did you get to such a stupid place?


Maybe not an elite concern, but like most areas of education they are an arena where existing inequalities play out.  Possibly even amplify them.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The logic of the argument is crap. _These restrictions exist_ therefore the imposition of similar restrictions on others isn't a bad thing.



It's not an unmitigated disaster either. Scientists in other countries, especially those outside of massive neoliberal trading blocs like the EU, have to work their way around such things. I get that international scientific cooperation is important, but such things shouldn't be reliant on the EU's largesse.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

I had a problem with a jacket I bought a fortnight ago, and the European manufacturer told me they could only sent a replacement zip until until the 31st Dec because of something to do with Brexit. So there you are, Brexit = bad for jackets on the blink. I fixed it myself anyway, so no problem.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> What more do you need to know?  I’ve posted a paper twice now that is one of many attempts to grapple with this. Gramsci provided a decent summary of it.  If you’re _really _interested in the answer to the question rather than just employing a bad faith rhetorical device, why don’t you have a read of it and then see what you think?


I'm asking for_ his opinion,_ not yours.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Cor blimey guv it was great to read about the   impacts on ordinary people.


A wide cross section by the guardian's standards.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Maybe not an elite concern, but like most areas of education they are an arena where existing inequalities play out.  Possibly even amplify them.


You don't solve that problem by restricting access even more. The main problems in specifically UK education start earlier. They start in the school system.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm asking for_ his opinion,_ not yours.


Are you going to ask every Brexit voter individually then?  Or are you only interested in what TopCat personally believes he is getting from it?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

I think a lot of the fall out will be surrounding disinvestment. Banks heading elsewhere. The UK being seen as a more risky place for capital.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Are you going to ask every Brexit voter individually then?  Or are you only interested in what TopCat personally believes he is getting from it?


In this particular case, I am interested in his opinion, yes. That's often how bulletin boards work, with people exchanging their personal opinions on a given topic, just like you're now asking me my personal opinion.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm asking for_ his opinion,_ not yours.


Why don't you read it? Always good to try to make sense of both sides of an argument, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Why don't you read it? Always good to try to make sense of both sides of an argument, no?


Depends on the argument no doubt


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> In this particular case, I am interested in his opinion, yes. That's often how bulletin boards work, with people exchanging their personal opinions on a given topic, just like you're now asking me my personal opinion.


Sounds like a job for a PM to me.  But anyway.  If all you’re interested in is one very specific person’s opinion then actually you’ve already got it.  He’s already told you what he personally has got out of it.  If that’s not good enough for you, that’s not his problem.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What do people realistically think they will drop? It costs £900 minimum to go to an ET now. The EU didnt save us the Tory move that got us to that point.



if you're talking employment tribunals, that got stopped a few years back.  more here.   

i'm not convinced there will be an immediate 'bonfire of red tape' but can see a lot being ditched or cut back over time - health and safety standards, right to paid holiday, parental leave and so on - will all be dressed up with a lot of union jack waving and bollocks about being 'competitive' and how those poor hard done by bosses "can't afford" to offer "generous" terms and conditions (and they and their friends in the millionaire owned media will still probably blame foreigners / immigrants / trade unions for it)

ultimately, while i've no particular enthusiasm for the EU, i can't see the current shower of twunts doing anything that will benefit working people, and can see them doing a lot in the interests of their hedge fund chums...


----------



## Saul Goodman (Dec 27, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> I don't think anyone is saying music is shit.


In fairness, a lot of it is.


----------



## Wilf (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You don't solve that problem by restricting access even more. The main problems in specifically UK education start earlier. They start in the school system.


Outside the school system I'd say. IN the context of our society as it is, I don't see that schemes like Erasumus challenge those inequalities.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> if you're talking employment tribunals, that got stopped a few years back.  more here.
> 
> i'm not convinced there will be an immediate 'bonfire of red tape' but can see a lot being ditched or cut back over time - health and safety standards, right to paid holiday, parental leave and so on - will all be dressed up with a lot of union jack waving and bollocks about being 'competitive' and how those poor hard done by bosses "can't afford" to offer "generous" terms and conditions (and they and their friends in the millionaire owned media will still probably blame foreigners / immigrants / trade unions for it)
> 
> ultimately, while i've no particular enthusiasm for the EU, i can't see the current shower of twunts doing anything that will benefit working people, and can see them doing a lot in the interests of their hedge fund chums...


What we have in terms of rights and protections have been hard won, largely here in the UK by collective action.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Great to hear the ET fees got dropped. Go on, tell me it was the EU that got it done.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Rosslare thriving some more is a possible benefit from Brexit.









						Brexit: The Irish port of Rosslare is hoping to benefit
					

Rosslare hopes Brexit will bring benefits as more hauliers seek to avoid the UK land bridge.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Smangus (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I had a problem with a jacket I bought a fortnight ago, and the European manufacturer told me they could only sent a replacement zip until until the 31st Dec because of something to do with Brexit. So there you are, Brexit = bad for jackets on the blink. I fixed it myself anyway, so no problem.




I guess the moral of the story there is "Buy British" so, that's me sorted for Stilton, Aston Martins and Barbour jackets then.... 🤔


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I've never heard of people calling the French dirty tbh .


I have, many a time. Don't wash, and smell of having had sex too. No sex for us please, we're British.


editor said:


> Build up a following, make contacts, sell records, sell merchandise, maybe get on some local TV/radio stations and maybe get to meet local promoters or festival organisers. Even before the various flavours of lockdown, there was a rapidly decreasing pool of live venues available, so Europe provided more opportunities for gigs - in fact, pre-Brexit, it could be just as easy for a London band to play France that somewhere up North.


Absolutely, tours for a majority of acts are a promotional exercise and expense. 
Live gigs I go to in the UK are rarely of a UK act... The idea that musicians shouldn't travel is the most bizarre little Britain thing I've ever read on urban.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What we have in terms of rights and protections have been hard won, largely here in the UK by collective action.





while i'd agree that is the case in specific workplaces / industries, i don't recall a lot of collective action across multiple industries / employers to get the EU working time directive (of which paid holiday entitlement is part) implemented.



TopCat said:


> Great to hear the ET fees got dropped. Go on, tell me it was the EU that got it done.



and  again

as i have said before, i'm not a great enthusiast for the EU, but you're coming across more as defending an article of faith at all costs here.

I've still to see anything that suggests anything will improve for workers as a result of the brexit we're getting...


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Live gigs I go to in the UK are rarely of a UK act... The idea that *musicians shouldn't travel* is the most bizarre little Britain thing I've ever read on urban.



[bold added]

I don't think anyone here is saying that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Wilf said:


> Outside the school system I'd say. IN the context of our society as it is, I don't see that schemes like Erasumus challenge those inequalities.


Once you are at university, class differences are no longer a good indicator of success. In fact rather the reverse - on average, students from state schools outperform those from private schools on the same courses. The biggest entrenchment of privilege in education happens before university.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Sounds like a job for a PM to me.


You've really painted yourself into a corner here. Forums are_ all about_ people expressing and exchanging personal opinions, but to follow your daft line of argument,  why didn't you send me a PM when you wanted my personal opinion?   

😂


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Absolutely, tours for a majority of acts are a promotional exercise and expense.
> Live gigs I go to in the UK are rarely of a UK act... The idea that musicians shouldn't travel is the most bizarre little Britain thing I've ever read on urban.


Indeed. I used to regularly book UK acts who played around Europe for my club nights - and also book EU acts to play in Brixton - and the notion that they're all middle class hobbyists enjoying the 'luxury' of getting to play low-paid shows is laughable and insulting.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Once you are at university, class differences are no longer a good indicator of success. In fact rather the reverse - on average, students from state schools outperform those from private schools on the same courses.



The old boys' network still nets the toffs all the cushy jobs, regardless of scholastic success. What do working class students get? A mountain of debt chained to their leg and then being told by employers that they are "overqualified".


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Why don't you read it? Always good to try to make sense of both sides of an argument, no?


Read what? I've asked someone who is a fan of Brexit to explain the benefits they personally think it will be bring to everyone. It's a reasonable question and one that really doesn't need you or anyone else shoving their oar in, thanks.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Another benefit of brexit is that there may now be an opportunity for the EU to drop English as one of their 'official' languages.
Less real or virtual paper and ink to consume, thereby helping to reduce global warming.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Read what? I've asked someone who is a fan of Brexit to explain the benefits they personally think it will be bring to everyone. It's a reasonable question and one that really doesn't need you or anyone else shoving their oar in, thanks.


This is a public forum innit. Feel like I'm entitled to ask who I want what I want, as long as I'm not breaking the terms and conditions.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> [bold added]
> 
> I don't think anyone here is saying that.


I recall quiting music and playing three local pubs being suggested 

I'm not going back to check


----------



## grit (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> I think a lot of the fall out will be surrounding disinvestment. Banks heading elsewhere. The UK being seen as a more risky place for capital.



Yes, there are already indications that this is a likely outcome


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

Nobody can play in pubs anyway, they're all shut!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Great to hear the ET fees got dropped. Go on, tell me it was the EU that got it done.



It was UNISON but good news!









						What impact would the return of tribunal fees have? - Personnel Today
					

There have been whispers about a potential return of employment tribunal fees as the courts wade through a backlog of cases. Louise Keenan looks at what impact this would have on claimants and employers. The Times recently published an article suggesting that it had seen private correspondence...




					www.personneltoday.com
				






> The Times recently published an article suggesting that it had seen private correspondence between Whitehall officials and the Law Commission, in which the government was seeking recommendations for the reintroduction of employment tribunal fees. This has, unsurprisingly, sparked discussion about what may be on the horizon.



It never got to the EU court but if it had then the EU may have blocked them.

While it was our Supreme Court that ultimately ruled them unlawful I've seen several articles point out EU law was a contributing factor to the supreme court decision.





__





						Access to Justice and the removal of Employment Tribunal fees | Ince | In any case
					

R (on the application of UNISON) v Lord Chancellor Almost four years to the day since the introduction of the payment of employment tribunal fees required by the Employment Tribunals and the Employment Appeal Tribunal Fees Order 2013 SI 2013/1893 (‘the Fees Order’), the Supreme Court has handed...




					www.incegd.com
				






> The impact of fees on employment claims derived from EU law was also considered. EU principles of effectiveness and effective judicial protection and the right to a fair hearing under Article 6 of the European Convention on Human Rights were impacted by the imposition of unaffordable tribunal fees and were therefore disproportionate restrictions on the exercise of EU derived rights and contrary to EU law.



The other good news is that the UK government has indicated it's going to take a firmer role in the courts decisions.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> This is a public forum innit. Feel like I'm entitled to ask who I want what I want, as long as I'm not breaking the terms and conditions.


Which was_ exactly my point_, FFS. I'm asking TopCat for his personal opinion so fuck knows why you and others keep sticking your oars in, or why it's been suggested I should conduct that discussion via PM.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> Which was_ exactly my point_, FFS. I'm asking TopCat for his personal opinion so fuck knows why you and others keep sticking your oars in, or why it's been suggested I should conduct that discussion via PM.


Cos it's you trying to win some weird battle as per usual cos you take everything so personally. And it's stinking up the thread. But hey, you've decided you're right and don't want to even begin to explore why anyone might have a different opinion on Brexit, so do as you please, I guess


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> It was UNISON but good news!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well done to Unison.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well done to Unison.


A rarely seen sentence


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Cos it's you trying to win some weird battle as per usual cos you take everything so personally. And it's stinking up the thread. But hey, you've decided you're right and don't want to even begin to explore why anyone might have a different opinion on Brexit, so do as you please, I guess


I'm just asking him a simple straightforward question. I've no idea why you're getting all worked up about it. It's got fuck all to do with you. And the 'stinking up of the thread has been mainly caused by you and others constantly shoving in their oars.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well done to Unison.



I like to think I'm making more inroads than talking about broken zips as to why brexit is daft so I appreciate your likes.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I know the other thread is dealing with the weightier matters but ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh look, a self-styled "progressive" think tank. Apparently they are a registered charity, although they also get money from the likes of Google, the City of London Corporation, and JP Morgan. Oh, and the government. Real champions of the working class right there.



Puddy_Tat said:


> while i'd agree that is the case in specific workplaces / industries, i don't recall a lot of collective action across multiple industries / employers to get the EU working time directive (of which paid holiday entitlement is part) implemented.



You mean the working time directive that many employers frequently encourage their employees to sign away? It's functionally toothless. Especially if people feel that they need the extra hours.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> You've really painted yourself into a corner here. Forums are_ all about_ people expressing and exchanging personal opinions, but to follow your daft line of argument,  why didn't you send me a PM when you wanted my personal opinion?
> 
> 😂


Stop being a bully. Go for a walk or something.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Stop being a bully. Go for a walk or something.


A 'bully'? Now that is fucking priceless.


----------



## editor (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Oh look, a self-styled "progressive" think tank. Apparently they are a registered charity, although they also get money from the likes of Google, the City of London Corporation, and JP Morgan. Oh, and the government. Real champions of the working class right there.
> 
> 
> 
> You mean the working time directive that many employers frequently encourage their employees to sign away? It's functionally toothless. Especially if people feel that they need the extra hours.


So will it all get better for the workers now that Brexit is here?


----------



## NoXion (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> So will it all get better for the workers now that Brexit is here?



Dunno, ask me later when my crystal ball gets back from the repair shop.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

its not a big ask tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> its not a big ask tbh


Yeh and it's important to get a spot of exercise esp at this time of year


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

Heres the kind of thing ed is asking for, I posted this earlier,now ammended, incomplete list:

full access to the common market + zero tariffs but with new bureaucratic costs + a degree of limited reclaimed sovereignty (no ecj for example but still tied for now to the level playing field) Tariff disputes will be sure to come up as "standards deviate",

+ points based migration + a few more fish

a step closer to breaking up of the union + end of freedom of movement in both directions + additional intercontinental bureaucracy/costs + some people living in Europe might find themselves made illegal + energising a new wave of Nationalist forces in the UK + Brexit sunk Corbyn + other financial impacts on particular sectors.


....
Only thing that has potential to count as a positive IMO is the sliver of reclaimed sovereignty, but it would be a stretch to overstate it at this point. Much depends on how things play out in terms of future trade wars. I don't know enough about the ECJ as to whether being out of its jurisdiction is a good thing or not. The principle of closer, more direct democracy is sound though 


Break up of the Union could be great, but not without risk or cost


----------



## kabbes (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> You've really painted yourself into a corner here. Forums are_ all about_ people expressing and exchanging personal opinions, but to follow your daft line of argument,  why didn't you send me a PM when you wanted my personal opinion?
> 
> 😂


I said other things in that post you know, then the throwaway comment you decided to quote. But oh well.  If you’re not interested, you’re not interested.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm just asking him a simple straightforward question. I've no idea why you're getting all worked up about it. It's got fuck all to do with you. And the 'stinking up of the thread has been mainly caused by you and others constantly shoving in their oars.


By constantly shoving in their oars I take it you mean offering their opinions


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> You mean the working time directive that many employers frequently encourage their employees to sign away? It's functionally toothless. Especially if people feel that they need the extra hours.



the working time bit, yes.  the paid holiday bit (and some others) doesn't have an opt out.

sorry, but i still can't see what workers in the UK have to gain from brexit as it stands...


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> sorry, but i still can't see what workers in the UK have to gain from brexit as it stands...



Next to nothing under a tory government, as it ever was. The hope for some is that potential future radical left wing government would not be constrained by neolib eu.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

NoXion said:


> You mean the working time directive that many employers frequeIt's functionally toothless.


Iirc it toothless because the Tories fought hard to make it so. Not as toothless in France (iirc?)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

If you don't wants oars shoved in you should conduct your business via PMs.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> its not a big ask tbh


It's not a big ask at all of someone who is constantly banging on about remoaners.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

Only just seen this thread so posting this here



ska invita said:


> Heres the kind of thing ed is asking for, I posted this earlier,now ammended, incomplete lis
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anyone have an opinion on being out of the European court system?  Practical good or bad thing?


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's not a big ask at all of someone who is constantly banging on about remoaners.


Who said they read the deal and liked it too


----------



## andysays (Dec 27, 2020)

I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this

Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco



> Any changes to food prices after Brexit are likely to be "very modest indeed" under the deal struck between the UK and the EU, the chairman of Tesco has said.



I'm not sure this is actually true, but would certainly run contrary to a lot of what we've been told, not least on this thread


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

The Tory filth are on track to beat the thatcher major  two decades at the helm now. I know I might come across as a quinoa munching Prosecco quaffing soft centrist at times ( I’m not ) but this is not a good prospect to look forward to


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> The Tory filth are on track to beat the thatcher major  two decades at the helm now. I know I might come across as a quinoa munching Prosecco quaffing soft centrist at times ( I’m not ) but this is not a good prospect to look forward to


Always had you down as more of a cava man


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> The Tory filth are on track to beat the thatcher major  two decades at the helm now. I know I might come across as a quinoa munching Prosecco quaffing soft centrist at times ( I’m not ) but this is not a good prospect to look forward to


5 decades if you count new labour


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this
> 
> Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco
> 
> ...


Isn't the chairman of Tesco's a Tory?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I have, many a time. Don't wash, and smell of having had sex too. No sex for us please, we're British.
> 
> Absolutely, tours for a majority of acts are a promotional exercise and expense.
> Live gigs I go to in the UK are rarely of a UK act... The idea that musicians shouldn't travel is the most bizarre little Britain thing I've ever read on urban.



Is calling the French dirty a London thing I wonder , never heard it in Manchester and it’s never come up in conversations in Portugal .


----------



## andysays (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Isn't the chairman of Tesco's a Tory?


Quite possibly, and it's quite possibly nonsense.

I'll check the prices at my local Tesco in the New Year and report back 
(if I remember, which I probably won't...)


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Isn't the chairman of Tesco's a Tory?


Ex Workers Power


----------



## Raheem (Dec 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this
> 
> Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco
> 
> ...


This seems believable to me. No tariffs and, although the UK is now entitled to add non-tarrif barriers, there's no immediate reason to do so, at least on a major scale. If there are price rises for food, it will probably be because of Brexit driving general inflation, rather than directly because of the new regime for imports.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

Re working time directive 

ETA

Fuck it # 5 fir today


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Always had you down as more of a cava man




Sparkling beverages outside irn bru are a mystery to me


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

tories are now pointing and laughing at the SNP for saying they will vote against the crap deal, and saying they are voting for 'no deal'...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this
> 
> Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco
> 
> ...


Told by whom on this thread? Mostly talk was of the effect of no deal crash out.


----------



## bimble (Dec 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this
> 
> Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco
> 
> ...


Chairman of Tescos says it’s only small businesses that won’t be able to cope with the extra beurocracy of importing & exporting. Tesco’s will be fine. Brilliant news.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Another benefit of brexit is that there may now be an opportunity for the EU to drop English as one of their 'official' languages.
> Less real or virtual paper and ink to consume, thereby helping to reduce global warming.




They not only won't drop English as one of their languages, it will remain the lingua franca of the EU. We should charge them for the use of it, £350m a week should cover it.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

It is, after all, still the de facto official language of the member state of the Republic of Ireland.


----------



## Smangus (Dec 27, 2020)

andysays said:


> I may have missed it among all the stuff about how the music industry will be fucked by Brexit because bands who currently lose money touring in Europe will now lose even more money, but has anyone noticed this
> 
> Brexit impact on food prices 'very modest' - Tesco
> 
> ...



I reckon some businesses will use Brexit as a reason to increase prices over time, whether it has a direct effect or  not. It will be an excuse to charge more and they will push the envelope to see how far they can get away with it. A bit like when countries joined the Euro and the currency changes were used to justify higher prices in the exchange. 

This may not apply to a massive concern like Tescos though.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Another benefit of brexit is that there may now be an opportunity for the EU to drop English as one of their 'official' languages.
> Less real or virtual paper and ink to consume, thereby helping to reduce global warming.


This was once said by Barnier who later said it was a joke although later he said he wanted the negotiations to be in French .


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> tories are now pointing and laughing at the SNP for saying they will vote against the crap deal, and saying they are voting for 'no deal'...


SNP approaching Paul Mason territory


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

This could well have paved the way towards a united ireland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Another benefit of brexit is that there may now be an opportunity for the EU to drop English as one of their 'official' languages.
> Less real or virtual paper and ink to consume, thereby helping to reduce global warming.


Why not try to think things through before you post. As pointed out English is what's generally spoken in Ireland.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Flavour said:


> It is, after all, still the de facto official language of the member state of the Republic of Ireland.



Yes it is. But I reckon the official number of English speakers in the ROI is, what, five million?
That's about the same number in the EU that speak Flemish.
The three 'working languages' up to now have been English, French and German.
With the UK now out of the picture there is an opportunity to economise in the 'working language' area of activity.
Or possibly upgrade Spanish or something, but that would of course not be a slimming down or an economy.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 27, 2020)

They won't cos they can't ever agree on it. Harmony...


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Why not try to think things through before you post. As pointed out English is what's generally spoken in Ireland.



'Think things through'
Yay.
The control freak simply can't resist.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> 'Think things through'
> Yay.
> The control freak simply can't resist.


Yes, you're always playing the man not the ball because you've no actual arguments worth the name


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They won't cos they can't ever agree on it. Harmony...


Brexit is pushing them closer. They will have much more in common economically and politically.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes it is. But I reckon the official number of English speakers in the ROI is, what, five million?
> That's about the same number in the EU that speak Flemish.
> The three 'working languages' up to now have been English, French and German.
> With the UK now out of the picture there is an opportunity to economise in the 'working language' area of activity.
> Or possibly upgrade Spanish or something, but that would of course not be a slimming down or an economy.


With those no actual arguments worth the name. Almost all the Flemish speakers are concentrated in Belgium. Tens of millions of people throughout the EU speak English.


----------



## Winot (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This could well have paved the way towards a united ireland.



That is a possible advantage of Brexit.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This could well have paved the way towards a united ireland.


To b honest upheaval in Scotland and the Southern state will have more influence. Ulster  loyalists distrust the Westminster establishment almost as much as an ex volunteer in Crossmaglen.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 27, 2020)

By what process would French regain status as lingua franca between, e.g., the Polish and the Greeks, or the Germans and the Italians, who have been communicating with each other in English for decades? EU directive? You must speak French or German now


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

Puddy_Tat said:


> tories are now pointing and laughing at the SNP for saying they will vote against the crap deal, and saying they are voting for 'no deal'...



I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.

The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.

There is not enough time to look at the deal closely.

Vote on EU was Tory idea and the deal is a Tory one.

Trying to make other parties responsible for it is not on.

If it goes wrong at least the other parties can say they never voted for it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.
> 
> The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.
> 
> ...


Absolutely. It's not the opposition's job to enable the government's policies. The government is supposed to command a majority in the House to do that with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I think the other parties should abstain in vote on this deal.
> 
> The Tories have the majority let them carry the can for this deal.
> 
> ...


Tbh the labour party have been absolutely abysmal throughout the past four years so there's no real chance on them doing anything reasonable now. If I was a remainer labour voter I'd be thinking how much attention they pay brexit voters and how little the millions of labour voters who wished to stay in the EU. I think sss will prove a worse leader than Corbyn who managed in two elections to attract more votes than Blair in 05, brown in 10 and miliband in 15


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

It will,I think,be instructive to look back in years to come to see what effect,if any, the introduction of a points-based system has had on levels of in-work poverty in the UK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

I'll be watching to see how this affects immigration and refugee numbers and also how UK foreign aid goes in the coming years. We're already seeing signs of more spending on the military. 

wrt rights and conditions, I'll be watching to see how much the Tories think they can push things without incurring sanctions from the EU. Regulations on working hours, holiday entitlement, sick pay, etc, could be the first to come under attack, especially under the cover of 'we have to do this cos of covid debts, not a luxury we can afford, etc'.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> So will it all get better for the workers now that Brexit is here?


Not under the Tories and without some serious work building resistance in the work place no . In the U.K. and the EU the formula is the same , the lower the level of unionisation and collective bargaining the lower the wages and rights EU countries with weak collective bargaining have lowest wages


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'll be watching to see how this affects immigration and refugee numbers and also how UK foreign aid goes in the coming years. We're already seeing signs of more spending on the military.
> 
> wrt rights and conditions, I'll be watching to see how much the Tories think they can push things without incurring sanctions from the EU. Regulations on working hours, holiday entitlement, sick pay, etc, could be the first to come under attack, especially under the cover of 'we have to do this cos of covid debts, not a luxury we can afford, etc'.


You in a trade union littlebabyjesus ?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, you're always playing the man not the ball because you've no actual arguments worth the name



'Always' lol.


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

Sick pay pretty shit already for millions of us tbf.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 27, 2020)

Can’t help feeling that the tories will push ‘right to work’ as exists in many US states.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> With those no actual arguments worth the name. Almost all the Flemish speakers are concentrated in Belgium. Tens of millions of people throughout the EU speak English.



Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.


----------



## Supine (Dec 27, 2020)

Death by a thousand cuts in manufacturing. Barriers to trade have slowly been moving investments into EU. The expense of a replacement CE certification, a replacement to REACH, unplugging ourselves from EU data hubs. All of these and many many other things will degrade our country over time. The right wing politics in power will counter by cutting standards and conditions as far as they can. 

Anyone who thinks brexit is good for left wing politics is a nieve fool.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the labour party have been absolutely abysmal throughout the past four years so there's no real chance on them doing anything reasonable now. If I was a remainer labour voter I'd be thinking how much attention they pay brexit voters and how little the millions of labour voters who wished to stay in the EU. I think sss will prove a worse leader than Corbyn who managed in two elections to attract more votes than Blair in 05, brown in 10 and miliband in 15


Well that’s an excellent recipe for retaining Remainers , Labour recruiting former Lib Dem’s , totally writing off the ‘red wall’ and further losing  working class support . So job done pal .


----------



## tommers (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> Sick pay pretty shit already for millions of us tbf.



It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> You in a trade union littlebabyjesus ?


You going to lecture me about how to effect change? I'm fully aware of the importance of strong unions in defending pay and conditions. None of that changes the fact that there exist right now a bunch of improved conditions that came in with EU law that the UK did not have until that EU law came in. The laws on part-time worker holiday and sick pay rights are one of the most important, as they improved the lot of millions of mostly low-paid workers overnight.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

tommers said:


> It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.


Yep. Minimum holiday entitlement in the UK currently (as mandated by the EU) is 20 days a year or the equivalent plus bank holidays. Minimum holiday entitlement in the US is 0 (zero) days. Things could get a whole lot worse.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You going to lecture me about how to effect change? I'm fully aware of the importance of strong unions in defending pay and conditions. None of that changes the fact that there exist right now a bunch of improved conditions that came in with EU law that the UK did not have until that EU law came in. The laws on part-time worker holiday and sick pay rights are one of the most important, as they improved the lot of millions of mostly low-paid workers overnight.


No not at all , I was just asking if you were in a union .


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

tommers said:


> It's better than America. Which is where they want to take us.


I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.


----------



## tommers (Dec 27, 2020)

My last two companies have been owned or mainly based in the US. Employment rights are basically non-existent. Same day redundancies, sick leave comes from PTO, 8 weeks maternity etc. And these are "good" companies to work for. It depends on the state, but in general rights are a lot less than here. 

They got people to accept austerity by pretending that a nation's finances work the same way as a household's so don't tell me reducing maternity leave will result in a mass uprising. It will be done bit by bit. For them this is one of the benefits of it all.


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. Minimum holiday entitlement in the UK currently (as mandated by the EU) is 20 days a year or the equivalent plus bank holidays. Minimum holiday entitlement in the US is 0 (zero) days. Things could get a whole lot worse.


What is the EU provision for sick pay LBJ?


----------



## tommers (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.


Yeah, but this gives them the excuse to reduce it all. 

I'm not saying the EU are responsible for any of it, just that this situation gives them the cover, and removes the need to maintain them.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> I could be mistaken Tommers but I don't think that our current risible levels of SSP derive from any EU legislative provision and some do not even qualify for that.


One of the weaknesses of many provisions generally across the EU is that these rights only kick in after a certain time in employment. They leave a lot of room for improvement, but that doesn't mean they can't get worse.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
> I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.


English is a lot of people's second language though. So there might well be 25 million or whatever Polish speakers or 70 million Italian speakers, but 200 million English speakers


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> What is the EU provision for sick pay LBJ?


That a part-time worker has a right to it. I'm not talking about SSP (which I agree is pitiful), but fully paid sick pay that you get after a certain time in employment. Pre-the EU directive, which came in around 2001, part-time workers had no right to any sick pay at all, or holiday pay.


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

Yeah its just that you specifically mentioned sick pay and so far as I am aware the EU Directives don't provide for it with the result that you people,myself included, use up their holiday entitlement to tide them over whist sick.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> Yeah its just that you specifically mentioned sick pay and so far as I am aware the EU Directives don't provide for it with the result that you people,myself included, use up their holiday entitlement to tide them over whist sick.


Yes, I did. I specifically mentioned sick pay entitlement for part-time workers, which was zero and is now equal to that of full-time workers. Look it up. The same directive gave part-time workers equal holiday entitlement - ie the 20 days a year pro rata. Before that, part-time workers didn't even get paid for bank holidays.


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That a part-time worker has a right to it. I'm not talking about SSP (which I agree is pitiful), but fully paid sick pay that you get after a certain time in employment. Pre-the EU directive, which came in around 2001, part-time workers had no right to any sick pay at all, or holiday pay.


Okay I am learning something I was not previously aware of this Directive on Sick Pay.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> Okay I am learning something I was not previously aware of this Directive on Sick Pay.


You are learning something you weren't aware of that the part-time worker rights that exist now were brought in in the UK as part of an EU directive, and that these include sick pay and holiday pay.

You don't have to think that the EU is the answer to everything to recognise that certain things have been improvedby EU directives.


----------



## Duncan2 (Dec 27, 2020)

I see where you are coming from you mean in the situation where full timers have a contractual arrangement with regard to sick pay in which case the Equal Treatment Directive would apply.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Is calling the French dirty a London thing I wonder , never heard it in Manchester and it’s never come up in conversations in Portugal .


I've heard it on tv


----------



## philosophical (Dec 27, 2020)

S☼I said:


> English is a lot of people's second language though. So there might well be 25 million or whatever Polish speakers or 70 million Italian speakers, but 200 million English speakers



I am not suggesting those English speakers stop speaking English.
I have suggested a possible benefit of Brexit, dropping English as one of the 'working languages'.
It might not happen regrettably.


----------



## gosub (Dec 27, 2020)

Xmas 21 shouldn't (touchwood) be a tiered affair. 
Rows about Brexit will be less vitual affairs.


----------



## teqniq (Dec 27, 2020)

Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists
					

We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.




					petition.parliament.uk


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh the labour party have been absolutely abysmal throughout the past four years so there's no real chance on them doing anything reasonable now. If I was a remainer labour voter I'd be thinking how much attention they pay brexit voters and how little the millions of labour voters who wished to stay in the EU. I think sss will prove a worse leader than Corbyn who managed in two elections to attract more votes than Blair in 05, brown in 10 and miliband in 15



I'm seeing some squawks on tweeter that suggest that having pissed off labour-leave voters before the election, sir keith whatnot is now pissing off labour-remain voters in just as big a way


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I've heard it on tv


Not , I hope,  in Coronation Street


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 27, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists
> 
> 
> We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.
> ...


How's about we all get that? You know, free movement and working rights for everyone across Europe. 

That's the single biggest thing that we've lost. It's the one thing I'm fucking bitter about.


----------



## gosub (Dec 27, 2020)

teqniq said:


> Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists
> 
> 
> We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.
> ...


signed and shared


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am not suggesting those English speakers stop speaking English.
> I have suggested a possible benefit of Brexit, dropping English as one of the 'working languages'.
> It might not happen regrettably.


Nothing like a bit of blue sky thinking


----------



## tommers (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Well that’s an excellent recipe for retaining Remainers , Labour recruiting former Lib Dem’s , totally writing off the ‘red wall’ and further losing  working class support . So job done pal .



The vote was 52/48.

Tories/UKIP are overwhelmingly leavers. 
Labour are also apparently mostly leavers? 
Lib Dems were remainers but there are about 50 of them. 

So where are the other 16 million?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> There is another thread just started for sensible questions and discussion on that topic.
> This thread is more a constant redredging of shit and general fling it about sort of thing.



A sensible question.

Last week I was having a chat with one of the few workmates who is Brexit. Though he does not go on about it. 

He asked me what I thought. I did say that EU regulations hinder states giving what EU defines as state aid. I see it all the time in local Council docs. Not my Councils fault. Every action/policy of Council has to have approval of legal/finance side to make sure it does not constitute "state aid". 

This is one of the most worst aspects of being in the EU. Its pure Neo Liberalism

So in your knowledge does the deal mean that these EU strictures against state aid are gone?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

tommers said:


> The vote was 52/48.
> 
> Tories/UKIP are overwhelmingly leavers.
> Labour are also apparently mostly leavers?
> ...


Dunno , where are they hiding ?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Well that’s an excellent recipe for retaining Remainers , Labour recruiting former Lib Dem’s , totally writing off the ‘red wall’ and further losing  working class support . So job done pal .



In my area ( inner London) working class are Remain. 

Inner London stuck by Labour and is the new Red Wall.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
> I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.


No argument in this post


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> In my area ( inner London) working class are Remain.
> 
> Inner London stuck by Labour and is the new Red Wall.


Well hail the new Red Wall. If I was in the U.K. I’d will stick to Northern Independence rather than Paul Masonville


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> How's about we all get that? You know, free movement and working rights for everyone across Europe.
> 
> That's the single biggest thing that we've lost. It's the one thing I'm fucking bitter about.


Same. As much for my kids as anything. What a thing to throw away in return for.... well, dogshit, basically.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> does the deal mean that these EU strictures against state aid are gone?



Not sure.

One of the pro-brexit arguments put forward from the left was that EU rules stop nationalisation / 'state aid', hence in part some trade unions (including some in the railway sector) being pro-brexit - although I also saw articles arguing that was not the case and I'm not expert enough to say which is correct, or whether it would have come down to court hearings about the specifics of any case that had happened.

I've also seen it stated that if we had ended up on WTO terms, the WTO wouldn't have allowed it

I'm not sure how this fits with the concept of 'divergence' - again may come down to arguments about future specific cases.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Well hail the new Red Wall. If I was in the U.K. I’d will stick to Northern Independence rather than Paul Masonville



Pretty insulting to refer to section of working class who are Remain as living in Paul Masonville.

Many of them had no say in the Referendum. My partner didn't


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Pretty insulting to refer to section of working class who are Remain as living in Paul Masonville.
> 
> Many of them had no say in the Referendum. My partner didn't


Wouldn’t wish to insult your partner , but the notion that Labour is a social democratic pro Remain party is Mason’s .


----------



## brogdale (Dec 27, 2020)

Tesco telling us that the Brexit deal will not be a significant driver of food price inflation, but appeared to accept that larger corporations like his will be better placed to absorb the costs of non-tariff barriers than smaller companies.





> *Any changes to food prices after Brexit are likely to be "very modest indeed" under the deal struck between the UK and the EU, the chairman of Tesco has said.*
> John Allan told the BBC that it would "hardly be felt in terms of the prices that consumers are paying".
> He said the deal was a "good outcome" and far better than no deal.
> But he said the main benefit was that it removes a distraction from business and government.
> When reports last month suggested that there might not be a post-Brexit trade deal, Mr Allan had warned that food prices could rise between 3% and 5%.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> A sensible question.
> 
> Last week I was having a chat with one of the few workmates who is Brexit. Though he does not go on about it.
> 
> ...


I will read it in detail and come back to you.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> In my area ( inner London) working class are Remain.
> 
> Inner London stuck by Labour and is the new Red Wall.


Oh fuck.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 27, 2020)

Duncan2 said:


> Okay I am learning something I was not previously aware of this Directive on Sick Pay.


It would come under the regulations on less favourable treatment: The Part-time Workers (Prevention of Less Favourable Treatment) Regulations 2000
So basically, if full time workers get something like occupational sick pay, holuday pay, etc, the part time workers must also be entitled, or the employer is in breach of the European regulation.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

editor said:


> I'm just asking him a simple straightforward question. I've no idea why you're getting all worked up about it. It's got fuck all to do with you. And the 'stinking up of the thread has been mainly caused by you and others constantly shoving in their oars.


Oh dear.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Absolutely. It's not the opposition's job to enable the government's policies. The government is supposed to command a majority in the House to do that with.


If the opposition go against what most voted for they fuck their credibility.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If the opposition go against what most voted for they fuck their credibility.


If they vote with the govt for a poor deal they lose all credibility


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> No not at all , I was just asking if you were in a union .


An answer came not, just froth..


----------



## TopCat (Dec 27, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> If they vote with the govt for a poor deal they lose all credibility


Well they should have taken a turn to the workers earlier.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 27, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, I did. I specifically mentioned sick pay entitlement for part-time workers, which was zero and is now equal to that of full-time workers. Look it up. The same directive gave part-time workers equal holiday entitlement - ie the 20 days a year pro rata. Before that, part-time workers didn't even get paid for bank holidays.



Wasn’t just part time, full time on temporary contracts got fuck all too. The year before the directive came in I had eight (week) days off in total including bank holidays (I worked a few of them), did a few Saturdays too. And that was working for the well-unionised civil service, directly employed not agency. It did make a difference for some of us.


----------



## Winot (Dec 27, 2020)

I don’t understand the logic that says that a vote in favour of the deal is a vote in favour of Brexit (this is what anti-Brexit Labour is claiming). Brexit has happened. The choice now is between the (crap) deal and no deal.


----------



## Winot (Dec 27, 2020)

Perfectly reasonable to vote for the crap deal, make clear it’s crap because Tories, and have a policy to change it when in government.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Tesco telling us that the Brexit deal will not be a significant driver of food price inflation, but appeared to accept that larger corporations like his will be better placed to absorb the costs of non-tariff barriers than smaller companies.
> 
> View attachment 245734



It's also disingenuous because we've already seen some goods go up in price after the pound took a nose dive in 2016. Crisps and chocolates are noticeably more, few other odds and sods.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 27, 2020)

gosub said:


> Xmas 21 shouldn't (touchwood) be a tiered affair.
> Rows about Brexit will be less vitual affairs.



I don't think editor and topcat are going to be pulling each others cracker over a fresh American turkey.


----------



## gosub (Dec 27, 2020)

Entirely concure, though do think Labour tied itself in knot because Labour.  Weren't they at one stage going to negotiate a better deal and then campaign against. or some such, can't rememeber  its been a long year


----------



## gosub (Dec 27, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't think editor and topcat are going to be pulling each others cracker over a fresh American turkey.



No was thinking more generally.  Actually been quite a mellow Xmas for once


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 28, 2020)

Keir Starmer: Labour has six tests for Brexit – if they’re not met we won’t back the final deal in parliament – LabourList
					

The Brexiteers, once a minority, are now in power in the Conservative government, Keir Starmer will say today. The Shadow Brexit Secretary is expected to…




					labourlist.org
				






although, again, labour has been put in a no-win position by the tories.

vote for the crap deal and they will piss off their remain voters and will get "well you voted for it" every time they criticise anything

abstain and they will be made out to be a bunch of soggy indecisive nits and will probably piss off both their remain and leave voters

vote against and the tories will say (as they are already doing with the SNP who have said they will vote against) that they are voting for no-deal


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> No not at all , I was just asking if you were in a union .


Why does it matter to you?


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I don't think editor and topcat are going to be pulling each others cracker over a fresh American turkey.


I won't be doing anything near any turkey from any country, thanks. Always happy to go for a pint with topcat though (when possible).


----------



## kabbes (Dec 28, 2020)

Their indecision is the same triumph of shit politics over doing the best thing that has repeatedly got them into this mess.  What’s better for the country at this point — the deal on the table or no deal?  Right now, that’s all they should care about.  To do otherwise means they care more about their party  political games than the country, which is exactly what people hate politicians for more than anything else.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

editor said:


> I won't be doing anything near any turkey from any country, thanks. Always happy to go for a pint with topcat though (when possible).


It would be so nice to be sitting in the Albert in the warm with pints. Lots to talk about bar brexit!


----------



## bimble (Dec 28, 2020)

Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true: 
 In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else. 
Was that normal?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?


Definitely an element of that, encouraged by popular culture; Allo Allo, that book on Franglais, Bill Wyman's Je suis in rockstar. And yeah, I know I'm showing my age 😜


----------



## Poot (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?



Sort of. At my school you had to pick a team: either you were good at languages and embraced it (and hid at lunchtimes) or you did exactly as you describe. I can't possibly imagine any disadvantages of that scenario in later life.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?


Not my school.  But although mine was a standard comprehensive, it was a middle class one in the Home Counties that prided itself on being something of an exam factory, with a culture to match.  So I don’t know that it was “normal” exactly.  But then, what is “normal” anyway?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Why does it matter to you?


Th thread was  discussing a possible erosion of workers rights, unions are central to resisting such a thing. I expect most unions will be doing a post Brexit briefing at some point.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 28, 2020)

S☼I said:


> What do small-time bands tour Europe for? Genuine q.



a cheap way of going on holiday, load of fun, probably the most I’ve had. I’d not been to mainland Europe until we went there on tour in my mid twenties. Half of us were signing on at the time. Happy for it to be described as a hobby though, no intent or likelihood of earning a living from it (though the drummer has managed to since then, fairly marginally).


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?



Yes.

I regret letting my mates encouraging me to embrace the attitude in French. By the end of school I was however very good st German which surprised the teacher considering i never spoke in class.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?


Definitely although it was a mainly a peer group thing. I hated French lessons , couldn't see the point , couldn't pay attention and was embarrassed if the teacher ever spoke in French to me. The only thing I can remember was the cat was on the table and what is your name. We also had to do German in the second year, the teacher hated me and I hated the teacher  but I found out around Xmas that you could do Religious Education or what ever it was called as an option so did that for the rest of the year. There were only about 10 of us in the class and four had dropped out of German.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 28, 2020)

The government have published some outline of the new Turing scheme intended to replace the UK's participation in Erasmus+.

Mostly filler and guff, but the Tories determination to embed neoliberal 'market' competition into the policy is obvious from the outset:


----------



## DownwardDog (Dec 28, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I am not suggesting those English speakers stop speaking English.
> I have suggested a possible benefit of Brexit, dropping English as one of the 'working languages'.
> It might not happen regrettably.



English will continue to be a working language but will naturally reduce in significance because the commission is going to be recruiting relatively few native English speakers in years to come.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

French was ruined for us because the French teacher (complete with proper moustache) used a wind-up gram-o-phone so we were all waiting for it to wind down rather than listening to what was being said.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 28, 2020)

This fella is like a black cat walking in front of any campaign 









						Alastair Campbell: I couldn’t stop Brexit, but I could do my bit to save the planet
					

After his resolution to stop Brexit failed four years in a row, the writer and strategist turned his attention to saving the planet




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Th thread was  discussing a possible erosion of workers rights, unions are central to resisting such a thing. I expect most unions will be doing a post Brexit briefing at some point.



Not only that but I’d expect unions to be sitting down with Labour to agree what will go into their manifesto in respect of employment rights, the living wage and also the extent of intervention in the economy in the form of an investment bank and regional investment programmes.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

I studied French and German and remember most of it.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> .... future radical left wing government ....



Ow, it only hurts when I laugh.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

I always thought the kids in my classes who laughed at other kids knowing things were wankers. I used to say so at the time too, though it made my school days miserable.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 28, 2020)

DownwardDog said:


> English will continue to be a working language but will naturally reduce in significance because the commission is going to be recruiting relatively few native English speakers in years to come.


Another benefit of brexit if those in favour mean what they say about the UK being global and outward looking, could be the dropping of teaching French in schools and teaching Mandarin instead.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?



Pretty difficult to do a short cut or blag it when learning a language in school. It is a pretty pure form of teaching and learning. You have to memorise and utilise which can be hard work.
I reckon it might have been lazy people digging out hard working people for showing up how idle they were.
I suppose one short cut 'ish' in learning a language is to live in a place where everybody speaks it.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> This fella is like a black cat walking in front of any campaign
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Wondered who it was,  so gone from helping fuck over the country to saving the planet. Sick bag please.


----------



## Dogsauce (Dec 28, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe we should start making a list of the things that it doesn't matter that we'll lose or will become harder or more expensive. We'll get over it, or something.
> 
> 
> Food other than what's in season in the UK.
> ...



visiting family abroad.


----------



## bimble (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> I always thought the kids in my classes who laughed at other kids knowing things were wankers. I used to say so at the time too, though it made my school days miserable.


Yep. I was miserable too, didn’t have much of a chance at coolness seeing as I turned up already embarrassingly bilingual / a bit foreign.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

Half the enjoyment of learning Dutch for me (after school though) was getting the accent right. I still don't know why I chose Dutch though, it was before I'd thought of working there.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Wondered who it was,  so gone from helping fuck over the country to saving the planet. Sick bag please.


He is a leader in everything.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 28, 2020)

The view of some of the 'big guns' in the TUC What do unions say about Brexit deal?


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> Ow, it only hurts when I laugh.



If only we had an example of just how possible it was, say from in the last 3 years, then your laughter would say more about you than the post covid economy and the questions it will bring to the fore again.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> Half the enjoyment of learning Dutch for me (after school though) was getting the accent right. I still don't know why I chose Dutch though, it was before I'd thought of working there.


It's meant to be the closest language to English?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

So the meeting of the 27 EU leaders today. 
Anyone think they will do anything other than what they are told?


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

Do you mean Labour sabotaging itself in 2019?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> It's meant to be the closest language to English?



Don't know, but is sort of half way between English and German.

Do like the language though, really good for humour - they had some superb stand-up comedians in the 60s very laid back. Similar sense of humour to English too, a lot of word play.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 28, 2020)

The EU is not the problem for the radical left, it's parliamentarism and reformism.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 28, 2020)

I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent.  I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 28, 2020)

It's to do with the young 'acquiring' rather than learning a language when immersed in another country. Once you get older, we lose that skill.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 28, 2020)

I don't know about speaking a foreign language, but when it comes to speaking English your 'final' accent tends to become embedded (so I believe) between the ages of about 17 to 23.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

I always suggest "warming up" by saying a short monologue in your own language but with an outrageously strong accent (of the target language) and then switching to the target language and going on with the same outrageous accent. Takes confidence but works well


----------



## teuchter (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?


This applied to all subjects at my school. 
Except sports of course.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> Do you mean Labour sabotaging itself in 2019?



Labour lost the last election when Corbyn and McDonnell (under pressure from liberals and right wingers) abandoned their instincts and politics in respect of the EU.

But I specifically mean that the post-covid economy will necessitate a form of Keynesian intervention by government. Under the Tories the plan will be financial support and boosterism for capital. Our aim is the restoration of social democracy. One small step, but a step nonetheless, away from neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who predicts what comes next is foolish, but anyone who denies the extent to which things are going to open up over the next decade is equally foolish.

I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> Do you mean Labour sabotaging itself in 2019?


Yet more votes than under blair in 05, brown in 10 or miliband in 15...


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour lost the last election when Corbyn and McDonnell (under pressure from liberals and right wingers) abandoned their instincts and politics in respect of the EU.
> 
> But I specifically mean that the post-covid economy will necessitate a form of Keynesian intervention by government. Under the Tories the plan will be financial support and boosterism for capital. Our aim is the restoration of social democracy. One small step, but a step nonetheless, away from neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who predicts what comes next is foolish, but anyone who denies the extent to which things are going to open up over the next decade is equally foolish.
> 
> I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.



Fair enough.

I desperately hope it all goes the right way and I'll make my own contibutions as I can, but I'm extremely pessimistic. Especially in the short-medium term (10-20 years)

It's not even just the Brexit, but that will IMO make everything just a bit worse at least for all except the socially comfortable. At the moment I'm not seeing much in the way if golden futures for me or most of us - less probably than ever before in my life.

I made a promise to myself while back to start putting that shit in songs or whatever again, instead of social media posts, but from time to time the gag falls out.

I don't know how I keep the faith, and I know it doesn't show, but in the end what else is there to believe in?

So I hope you are right.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent.  I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.


I put a lot of effort into actually listening to how they were saying things and repeating - mainly Fons Jansen old stand-up. I could often say a few sentences before people realized I wasn't Dutch (hard to tell of course) and it was normally my grammar or vocabulary that let me down. Got taken for Belgian a couple of times because I was close to the border. 

Spent two years there and lost the language when I got back. Then spent another three years and it's stayed with me 35 years later. Having Dutch girlfriends helped greatly


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yet more votes than under blair in 05, brown in 10 or miliband in 15...



That underscores the heinousness of the sabotage


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> I desperately hope it all goes the right way and I'll make my own contibutions as I can, but I'm extremely pessimistic. Especially in the short-medium term (10-20 years)



Making your own contribution, as best you can, is the most anyone can do. There isn’t much to feel optimistic about at the moment I agree. But, as the last 10 years has surely taught everyone, the chronic systemic failure of late capitalism mean things can change rapidly.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 28, 2020)

I want to unpack _sabotage _really, because it's easily misunderstood. I mean the anti-semitism and the faffing about in dealing with it, Corbyn being personally likeable but not a good leader, trying to please everyone and failing, the party not supporting the outcome of the referendum and presenting a decent Lexit plan as something they could ''get brexit done'' with that (which IMO would have got them a landslide) and then the actual sabotage by named individuals high up in the party hierarchy. 

And this isn't even _radical left_, it's fucking Labour ffs. Hope is really hard to keep alive and I know I'm not alone in feeling that.

I feel the radical right will do better at capitalising on post-covid resentment, than the radical left, but I hope I am wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour lost the last election when Corbyn and McDonnell (under pressure from liberals and right wingers) abandoned their instincts and politics in respect of the EU.
> 
> But I specifically mean that the post-covid economy will necessitate a form of Keynesian intervention by government. Under the Tories the plan will be financial support and boosterism for capital. Our aim is the restoration of social democracy. One small step, but a step nonetheless, away from neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who predicts what comes next is foolish, but anyone who denies the extent to which things are going to open up over the next decade is equally foolish.
> 
> I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.


Yeh. We saw how hegemons reacted to a timid attempt to reintroduce a tepid form of social democracy in the labour party. And how the results of the last election have been spun by loads of people to fit the narrative that auld lefty Corbyn's labour party was utterly dismissed. Yet fewer votes than the vote the lp received last year returned it to power in 2005. Labour lost the last election when they failed to put out a clear message as the conservative party did, where a new policy was launched every day and none were really developed. I wonder to what extent the attitude of half the plp, who didn't want a Corbyn government, affected the result.

Recasting the events of last autumn in the way you do isn't to my mind persuasive, as I think the last election was really lost when after huffing and puffing against an election Corbyn lost any freedom of manoeuvre when forced by the golden shower to go to the country at a time not of his choosing. The only person really happy to go then was Johnson, who despite being a shitty lying cunt had the tory media and half the plp acting in his interests. If Swinson hadn't cracked then the events of the past year would have been very different.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Th thread was  discussing a possible erosion of workers rights, unions are central to resisting such a thing. I expect most unions will be doing a post Brexit briefing at some point.





Serge Forward said:


> The view of some of the 'big guns' in the TUC What do unions say about Brexit deal?


Very little enthusiasm on display



> *TUC general secretary* *Frances O’Grady* said: “This deal is better than nothing, but not by much. It won’t protect jobs and puts hard-won workers’ rights on the line.





> *UNISON general secretary Dave Prentis* said: “Any deal is better than the catastrophe of no deal. But the government’s mishandling of Brexit means even with this agreement, working people and public services still face huge uncertainty.
> 
> “It will be public services and the staff running them who will pay the price, as they always have done. Now everyone needs clarity on what this deal means – especially our public services, which are under such great pressure because of the virus and a decade of austerity.”





> *TSSA general secretary Manuel Cortes* said*:*
> “However, Johnson wants to spin this deal. Make no mistake. As from the January 1st, trade barriers with the EU will have been erected and as a result, we will all be poorer in years to come.”


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent.  I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.


The age most commonly given for this is 11. Some linguists attribute this to the withering of a childhood 'language acquisition organ' which seems unlikely to me and I have always preferred the idea that it is about this time that social identity, of which accent is a key part, is set.  And this is also a possible reason for classes full of unwilling twelve year olds insisting on reading the French and German vocab lists out in an accent as close to their native accent as possible. It's a very difficult age and situation in which to be acting the part of a member of another social group.

This isn't the paper I was looking for but seems to have some stuff on the same topic, phonology as a group recognition device rather than just part of language:





__





						Loading…
					





					tscheer.free.fr


----------



## agricola (Dec 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. We saw how hegemons reacted to a timid attempt to reintroduce a tepid form of social democracy in the labour party. And how the results of the last election have been spun by loads of people to fit the narrative that auld lefty Corbyn's labour party was utterly dismissed. Yet fewer votes than the vote the lp received last year returned it to power in 2005. Labour lost the last election when they failed to put out a clear message as the conservative party did, where a new policy was launched every day and none were really developed. *I wonder to what extent the attitude of half the plp, who didn't want a Corbyn government, affected the result.*
> 
> Recasting the events of last autumn in the way you do isn't to my mind persuasive, as I think the last election was really lost when after huffing and puffing against an election Corbyn lost any freedom of manoeuvre when forced by the golden shower to go to the country at a time not of his choosing. The only person really happy to go then was Johnson, who despite being a shitty lying cunt had the tory media and half the plp acting in his interests. If Swinson hadn't cracked then the events of the past year would have been very different.



A good point this - one of the big differences between 2017 and 2019 was that for the first election Woodcock et al hid away whilst being filmed for that BBC programme that was no doubt intended to portray their brave struggles against extremism, but ended up capturing their reaction on finding out they were irrelevant.  For the second they took a much more active anti-Labour role and are now peers of the realm, lobbyists or supremos of the musical-gambling industrial complex.


----------



## AnnaKarpik (Dec 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent.  I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.



I was referred to as 'some German woman' by a Swiss hotelier a while ago. We had been talking on the phone for some minutes so I think he had plenty of time to hear imperfections. And an Austrian called me a northerner, which was fair enough cos I lived in Hamburg at the time. This is probably not proof that I do not (or did not) have an accent but it was faint enough that I could pass for native at least some of the time and no-one ever guessed I was English from the way I spoke.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

It will be interesting to get Unite and the RMT, ASLEF etc position and analysis.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

agricola said:


> A good point this - one of the big differences between 2017 and 2019 was that for the first election Woodcock et al hid away whilst being filmed for that BBC programme that was no doubt intended to portray their brave struggles against extremism, but ended up capturing their reaction on finding out they were irrelevant.  For the second they took a much more active anti-Labour role and are now peers of the realm, lobbyists or supremos of the musical-gambling industrial complex.


I hide points like this in the middle of my posts to find out who actually reads them


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

I wonder whether it's sometimes to do with embarrassment/self consciousness at talking a foreign language that some people don't pick up the accent. It does amaze me sometimes when you hear English people talking a foreign language with atrocious accent - they just can't be comparing what they're saying things with how native speakers say it.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Dec 28, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> I always thought the kids in my classes who laughed at other kids knowing things were wankers. I used to say so at the time too, though it made my school days miserable.


exact same attitude in french schools, so maybe a european thing?


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 28, 2020)




----------



## Winot (Dec 28, 2020)

Long thread analysing deal.

TLDR - it’s a defensive deal which preserves both sides’ red lines but which doesn’t give as many positive opportunities as other FTAs.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 28, 2020)

I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 28, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> It's meant to be the closest language to English?


Frisian is allegedly the closest to English according to my former Dutch colleagues. Though there are only about half a million who speak it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol



The main barrier is just practice, I did quite well with Italian in mid 20s after about 6 months but without anyone to talk to in Italian it just slowly lost impetus and died off.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

editor said:


> Very little enthusiasm on display



Most of the TUC union tops were Remain (given their class position and role that’s no surprise). The TUC press release focuses purely on ‘reaction to the deal’ and not so much on the future.

With some honourable exceptions, like RMT, union leaderships are stuck ‘intellectually’ (if you can call it that) in the early 90’s when it comes to thinking about Europe. A point when the TUC imagined the EU was, on one hand, some kind of bulwark against Thatcherism and the ‘social Europe’ concept was popular but on the other constantly resisted genuine efforts to put resource and political weight into work to join struggle up against multinationals across the EU in favour of a badly conceived exceptionalism. A balance sheet on how unions have organised internationally or within multinational employers reveals the extent to which these companies have been able to organised a race to the bottom with impunity.

Whilst union bureaucrat thinking has not developed much since Delors it will need to now, starting with the formulation of demands around workplace rights, the repeal of the anti union laws, low pay and investment. Some of these could have been fixed regardless of Brexit of course, but ‘sovereignty’ opens things up a good deal more


----------



## ska invita (Dec 28, 2020)

gosub said:


> Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists
> 
> 
> We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.
> ...


Musicians Union have been campaigning on this for the last few years, it is not an issue the government was unaware of


----------



## ska invita (Dec 28, 2020)

Winot said:


> I don’t understand the logic that says that a vote in favour of the deal is a vote in favour of Brexit (this is what anti-Brexit Labour is claiming). Brexit has happened. The choice now is between the (crap) deal and no deal.


The deal will pass, so a vote is a meaningless chance to signal something to the wind.... Incidentally just like every election I've ever voted in


----------



## NoXion (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> Bit of a tangent but I wonder if this is just me or more broadly true:
> In my (crap comp) 2ndary school, it was very important to refuse to try at all, in French or German lessons. Everyone went out of their way to see much you could maintain a taking the piss English accent when you had to say stuff in foreign in the classroom. Not being demonstrably terrible at languages made you an instant loser, definitely worse than letting people know you were into maths or whatever else.
> Was that normal?



I went to a state school in North Wales where most of the kids were bilingual. So no.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol



Yes speaking it all the time is what did it for me - at least at home, work was in English. There was a monastery/language school I heard of that did intensive full time course for 2 weeks that I was tempted by. As I say self consciousness is I think one barrier - you have to make unfamiliar shapes with your mouth which people are reluctant to do.

I spent one afternoon with a girlfriend and her several friends all speaking quickly with me trying to follow what was going on. I came out with my head buzzing, similar to after concentrating on driving for a long distance. I got to fully appreciate what it's like for foreigners coming over here and trying to follow English for any length of time.


----------



## editor (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Whilst union bureaucrat thinking has not developed much since Delors it will need to now, starting with the formulation of demands around workplace rights, the repeal of the anti union laws, low pay and investment. Some of these could have been fixed regardless of Brexit of course, but ‘sovereignty’ opens things up a good deal more


You really think Brexit will fix this? I hope you're right but have almost zero hope.


----------



## bellaozzydog (Dec 28, 2020)

My pay appears to have gone up thirty quid a day (paid in dollars) 

I’m trying to find a silver lining here


----------



## ska invita (Dec 28, 2020)

NoXion said:


> I went to a state school in North Wales where most of the kids were bilingual. So no.


Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> I learnt Italian from zero to fluent in around 2 years starting from age 25 through the full immersion of moving there and living with an Italian girlfriend who spoke to me in Italian all the time. It certainly wasn't easy but the idea that it's "impossible" after a certain age is not strictly true. Most people cannot tell I am English from my accent but can definitely tell I'm not Italian. I've had all sorts of guesses for my nationality over the years: German, Swiss, Romanian, Albanian, Portuguese, American... never French though lol


The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality



I certainly didn't feel exceptional at school. Except for when some of the kids had a go at me for being English. As if it was _my_ choice to be there.


----------



## Flavour (Dec 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.



what does your tagline mean? Google translate says "april her father"?


----------



## philosophical (Dec 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> The oft repeated claim is that learning a language after the age of 11 means you'll always have an accent, not that you'll be unable to learn it or attain fluency. Loads of people learn languages in adulthood (I started mandarin at 24). Most people who are fluent in a second (or third etc.) language have a non-native accent.



Interesting that you decided to learn Mandarin.
Would you agree that for English speakers approaching Mandarin it first seems like an impossible cliff face type of task, but in reality it is much easier than people at first think?
Even though when it comes to reading and writing characters it is probably harder to get a grip with that than speaking and listening, it isn't impossible.


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Yeah it's an English exceptionalism thing I expect, a combination of the English language being so dominant through a history of Empire + Island bunker mentality


No. I've seen Chinese kids do pretty much the same in English lessons whereas on the whole they're not ashamed to be smart in class. Learning foreign phonology is difficult and most learners will stick to their native phonology as much as possible at least till they get to a conversational level in a language.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> No. I've seen Chinese kids do pretty much the same in English lessons whereas on the whole they're not ashamed to be smart in class. Learning foreign phonology is difficult and most learners will stick to their native phonology as much as possible at least till they get to a conversational level in a language.


I don't know about China... Might also be an inward looking culture born of Imperial might?

My family is all over Europe and everyone of them, particularly under 40,  has learned a second or even third language, because that's what happens. These are normal working class people not EU beurocrats. Learning English especially but not just. Definitely not got the Je Mappel Jean jokiness of learning languages in England


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

Flavour said:


> what does your tagline mean? Google translate says "april her father"?



My daughter's name is April.



philosophical said:


> Interesting that you decided to learn Mandarin.
> Would you agree that for English speakers approaching Mandarin it first seems like an impossible cliff face type of task, but in reality it is much easier than people at first think?
> Even though when it comes to reading and writing characters it is probably harder to get a grip with that than speaking and listening, it isn't impossible.



The speaking and listening's not easy either because it's tonal. But writing's easier than it looks at first and there's no tenses or genders or anything horrid like that. There are language learning threads here if anyone wants to talk Asian languages.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

In Holland it's embarrassing how many people speak English (and French and German) and how well they speak it. Better than us some of them.

A lot of Americanish accents though because of tv.


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> I don't know about China... Might also be an inward looking culture born of Imperial might?
> 
> My family is all over Europe and everyone of them, particularly under 40,  has learned a second or even third language, because that's what happens. These are normal working class people not EU beurocrats. Learning English especially but not just. Definitely not got the Je Mappel Jean jokiness of learning languages in England


How did they fare at school though? I've been in university and various evening classes surrounded by super-focused English adults taking language learning very seriously and doing well at it.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 28, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I read that if you haven’t learnt to speak a language by the age of 10, you’ll always speak it with an accent.  I have no empirical proof of this one way or the other though.


I properly learnt German at about age 26, because of my accent Germans I met thought I might be Dutch!!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 28, 2020)

My dad’s Dutch wife has lived in the U.K. for over 30 years and her English is still crap, she has a son in Holland who speaks not a word of English.  But I also have a Dutch friend who speaks fluent German, English and Spanish and his conversational French is pretty bloody good, the git.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Labour lost the last election when Corbyn and McDonnell (under pressure from liberals and right wingers) abandoned their instincts and politics in respect of the EU.
> 
> But I specifically mean that the post-covid economy will necessitate a form of Keynesian intervention by government. Under the Tories the plan will be financial support and boosterism for capital. Our aim is the restoration of social democracy. One small step, but a step nonetheless, away from neoliberal orthodoxy. Anyone who predicts what comes next is foolish, but anyone who denies the extent to which things are going to open up over the next decade is equally foolish.
> 
> I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.


But leaving the EU hasn't changed that, not in any meaningful way. Simply getting a social democrat government elected that would want to even mildly stretch the various EU rules on nationalisation and subsidy would have been a big result from where we were. That hasn't changed.

This is why I can of course acknowledge the importance of unions wrt pay and conditions, but without seeing how, in any way, brexit has done anything to change any of those concerns. That particular battle is the same now as it was yesterday as far as I can see, and we've been doing badly in it, of course, worse than many other EU countries - unions in many sectors, including mine, are virtually impotent. My union's minimum recommended rates, for instance, carry next to no weight and are unobtainable by an increasing number of people as wages are frozen year after year. I've never earned those rates, and that's not going to change while people feel lucky just to have any job at all. I can see no reason for optimism about changing that in the medium term, not with a tory government in place readying itself for Austerity2 - Covid Strikes Back. 'There is all to play for' just rings hollow to me, I'm afraid. People said similar things about the credit crunch and opportunities opening up with the necessity of Keynesian intervention. As you yourself say, that intervention can take many forms, and the most likely forms here in the UK have precious little to do with social democracy.

So we face the same problems but with everything a bit worse and everything a bit harder to achieve now than it was yesterday. And the possibilities for regression significantly greater. The aim might be the restoration of social democracy. The reality is a tory govt with four years left on its clock and a big majority in the Commons. My guess is that they will deal with the Covid economic crisis with a version of Japan's Abenomics. Borrowing and govt spending in certain areas, but cuts in social provision and yet more commodification and privatisation of public services. I can see that appealing to Johnson, who has always been keen on ambitious 'potlatch'-style big-ticket public works. Racing certainty that social and economic inequality will grow even more in the next four years. It might just make enough people feel that it's worked well enough for them to get another five years after that. It's not a cheery thought but that is where we are, if you're talking 'project reality'.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 28, 2020)

I sometimes wonder if the linguistic skills of the UK would have been improved if the USA had chosen Dutch or German as their  language.


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I sometimes wonder if the linguistic skills of the UK would have been improved if the USA had chosen Dutch or German as their  language.


The US has no official language. English is only the de facto official language because it's the most common. German did used to be far more widely spoken but declined in popularity after the mass internment of German Americans during WW1.


----------



## bimble (Dec 28, 2020)

My old mp Helen Hayes (i mean from before i moved house) has sent a one question survey around, like this. I'm not even sure which I'd tick probably the second one, the most miserable / cowardly option of all.


----------



## maomao (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> My old mp Helen Hayes (i mean from before i moved house) has sent a one question survey around, like this. I'm not even sure which I'd tick probably the second one, the most miserable / cowardly option of all.
> 
> View attachment 245831


'Other' and loads of abuse obviously.


----------



## bimble (Dec 28, 2020)

maomao said:


> 'Other' and loads of abuse obviously.


She's alright, for a politician. About 73 times better than the man whose constituency i live in now, who would never dream of being curious what anyone apart from Boris Johnson thinks about anything.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> She's alright, for a politician. About 73 times better than the man whose constituency i live in now, who would never dream of being curious what anyone apart from Boris Johnson thinks about anything.


Alright for a politician is rubbish for anyone else


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 28, 2020)

I think what’s missing from your pessimistic post LBJ is any account of the propulsive forces that drove Brexit. A vote that faced down the largely unified position of the establishment. I’m don’t, by the way, disagree with the analysis you’ve offered of their likely thinking.

There wasn’t a homogeneous set of ideas and demands driving the vote. But there was a _very significant _demand and urge for change. What people meant by that was also diverse but again we can see some broadly shared ideas: better jobs, better pay, better housing and social facilities, hope for youth, the revival of dying towns and areas.

Those demands and impulses are not going away. Now Brexit is done people are going to want to see the promised change. That demand will only be sharpened as the latest economic crisis unfolds into 2021 and beyond. There is no fixity, that I can see, to Johnson or the Tories or to popular support for a further round of austerity. I do sense beneath the obvious responses to covid a deep and swelling anger building up that will intensify as furlough and so on tapers off.

Is this all going to be contested? Could we see a rise of a populist right formulation perceived to have the right ideas? Might we see the other side embed their ideas more deeply as a result?

The answer is of course ‘yes’ to all. But that’s why it’s called the struggle. It’s why we need to develop our ideas and a vision, and a strategy to go out and argue for our vision and win people to it.


----------



## Mation (Dec 28, 2020)

What is this part of the BBC's headline summary of the deal likely to mean?



> *European Court of Justice*
> 
> The UK will no longer be bound by judgements made by the European Court of Justice, Prime Minister Boris Johnson said.


What would that apply to where there might be a difference of opinion? (Genuine question. Happy to do some reading-up of my own, but would appreciate pointers.)

All of the rest of it seems like there'll be some additional (pointless, expensive) paperwork to agree things that would previously have been agreed automatically.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think what’s missing from your pessimistic post LBJ is any account of the propulsive forces that drove Brexit. A vote that faced down the largely unified position of the establishment. I’m don’t, by the way, disagree with the analysis you’ve offered of their likely thinking.
> 
> There wasn’t a homogeneous set of ideas and demands driving the vote. But there was a _very significant _demand and urge for change. What people meant by that was also diverse but again we can see some broadly shared ideas: better jobs, better pay, better housing and social facilities, hope for youth, the revival of dying towns and areas.
> 
> ...



Snag is, the tories and their rich chums who own the press / run the BBC will continue to stir up resentment of what they present as the "elites" i.e. working class people who still have permanent and / or unionised jobs, remotely decent pay / conditions / pension schemes, secure social tenancies; trade unions, along with whatever minorities it's fashionable to scapegoat that week.   They will argue that "fairness" means trashing the employment rights / pensions / secure tenancies etc of those people and dismiss any attempt to "equalise up" as "the politics of envy".

An increasing number of people outside the relatively few lines of work that still have strong trade unions and decent pay / conditions / pensions have been bullshitted into believing this, and see unions (and all that goes with it) as the problem not the solution, and will happily go along with austerity so long as there's people they see as 'lower down' who are getting an even bigger kicking.

Some trade unions / people within unionised lines of work don't seem to see this, and in some workplaces, the established union / union members tend to see agency / casualised workers as the problem / enemy, not the bosses who have brought them in.  

I broadly agree with what you're saying, i'm just buggered if i know where that vision is going to come from or how it can be got across to people 'out there'


----------



## ska invita (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think the key point is that there is all to play for. There is no hegemony about what comes next.


Seems to me the hegemony is Tory Nationalism, with Starmers Labour following along in their slip stream


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Seems to me the hegemony is Tory Nationalism, with Starmers Labour following along in their slip stream


I think by hegemony he means agreement


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

Smokeandsteam said:


> I think what’s missing from your pessimistic post LBJ is any account of the propulsive forces that drove Brexit. A vote that faced down the largely unified position of the establishment. I’m don’t, by the way, disagree with the analysis you’ve offered of their likely thinking.
> 
> There wasn’t a homogeneous set of ideas and demands driving the vote. But there was a _very significant _demand and urge for change. What people meant by that was also diverse but again we can see some broadly shared ideas: better jobs, better pay, better housing and social facilities, hope for youth, the revival of dying towns and areas.
> 
> ...


Yet lots of people have reported that leave voters felt any economic impact would be a price worth paying for 'sovereignty', which would run rather counter to the narrative you'd have us believe of a vote to leave being for a more prosperous future. I'm not an economist but you don't need to be to see that making trade with neighbouring countries more difficult isn't going to make the change you're talking about more likely. Instead some large employers eg car manufacturers have made noises about moving altogether. 

I would love to see some evidence for your broadly shared ideas.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 28, 2020)

I had seen this figure somewhere else, but here it is in print:


 That looks potentially problematic.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 28, 2020)

and this sounds a little bit inconvenient...



> VAT and handling fees may also apply on some items, while parcels may be held up in post offices until all duties and fees have been cleared by the recipient in the UK.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Dec 28, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Tens of millions speak Spanish, or Italian, or French or German or Polish.
> I have not suggested making Flemish one of the so called 'working languages'.





Pickman's model said:


> No argument in this post


I think it would be great to have Flemish as a working language, not in the European Parliament but the House of Commons. We might at least understand what was going on in there.


----------



## tommers (Dec 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> and this sounds a little bit inconvenient...


That happens already with anything sent from anywhere else in the world.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 28, 2020)

tommers said:


> That happens already with anything sent from anywhere else in the world.


Yeah, but I suspect that a good chunk of most folk's overseas online purchasing is from EU member states?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

tommers said:


> That happens already with anything sent from anywhere else in the world.


Good of the government to reveal it more than 50 months after the referendum


----------



## TopCat (Dec 28, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, but I suspect that a good chunk of most folk's overseas online purchasing is from EU member states?


Not from China?  Alibaba and Ali Express?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2020)

Winot said:


> Long thread analysing deal.
> 
> TLDR - it’s a defensive deal which preserves both sides’ red lines but which doesn’t give as many positive opportunities as other FTAs.




Thanks for this. He does work for Tony Blair foundation now. But was in FCO and looking him up knows his stuff.

Few things. Financial services was dropped from talks. This will come later. That is real surprise as it is important part of UK economy. Apparently a memorandum of understanding next year.

Which from reading his twitter thread is another example that the agreement is just the start. This is not the end of Brexit. We can't say this divisive issue for the UK people is now finished. A whole new bureaucracy is going to be set up to administer this deal and future talks.

The nightmare will continue. I don't know how Starmer / Labour party are going to deal with this. I can understand Starmer wanting to end this and get MPs to vote for deal and then move on to isuses relevant to ordinary peoples lives but Brexit is not going to go away.

The deal is just the start.

There will be ability for both sides to erect tariffs if they feel hard done by. "Rebalancing"

ECJ wont apply in UK - good.

Northern Ireland appears to still be in EU to all intents and purposes from my reading of this. ( can anyone explain this? )

I dont know how that is going to work. It is being treated differently from rest of UK. Which I thought the Tories were dead against.

On "State subsidy" ie the government interfering in neo liberal free market looks like a fudge. EU can complain about "subsidy decisions" but not sure what this means in practise.

Impression I get of this deal is that a UK government can push the boundaries of the deal with EU and argue in the future.

Another reason why the deal is just the start.

So no Brexit is not finished.

Take State Aid. If a left Labour government comes to power it could still find that aiding / supporting industry may lead to dispute with EU.

Looks to me that labour/ environment protection needs to be aligned with EU regulations. But Tories could still have leeway to water it down imo.

Its a deal. Better than no deal. But the real discussion starts now.

Tories need an oppositio who will question how the deal is implemented. Not just go along with it.


----------



## elbows (Dec 28, 2020)

I have started to skim some of the trade agreement documents.

The language is tedious but there is the odd nugget that somehow makes it worth my time.



> DESIRING to make long‐term cooperative arrangements in the field of *peaceful and non‐explosive uses of nuclear energy in a predictable and practical manner,* which take into account the needs of their respective nuclear energy programmes and which facilitate trade, research and development and other cooperative activities between the United Kingdom and the Community;



From https://assets.publishing.service.g.../EU_UK_Civil_Nuclear_Agreement_24.12.2020.pdf


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2020)

The new bureaucracy:


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Thanks for this. He does work for Tony Blair foundation now. But was in FCO and looking him up knows his stuff.
> 
> Few things. Financial services was dropped from talks. This will come later. That is real surprise as it is important part of UK economy. Apparently a memorandum of understanding next year.
> 
> ...


oven ready


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2020)

And Spisak reckons this deal is not as good as what Canada and Japan got


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2020)

bimble said:


> My old mp Helen Hayes (i mean from before i moved house) has sent a one question survey around, like this. I'm not even sure which I'd tick probably the second one, the most miserable / cowardly option of all.
> 
> View attachment 245831



I did not get this.

I agree Helen Hayes has turned out to be a good constituency MP. She is not on left of the party but she has taken up issues going against the Progress led Lambeth Council.

Opposing Hondo Towers and supporting Nour Cash and Carry against McWilliams property empire in Brixton being one.

Also as you know supporting the Grove Adventure playground in Loughborough junction against the Council who wanted to build on it.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> oven ready



Kind of annoyed that Boris has got away with that, And saying at election he would get Brexit done. When he must have known it was not as simple as that.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 28, 2020)

two sheds said:


> oven ready


Sorry, but don't you watch the news?  The "oven ready deal" was the Withdrawal Agreement, not this deal.   I heard Gove say so on the telly.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Sorry, but don't you watch the news?  The "oven ready deal" was the Withdrawal Agreement, not this deal.   I heard Gove say so on the telly.


I definately remember it.  I remember screaming "you lying, duplicitous bastard" at the telly, and then checking what "duplicitous" meant.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> I definately remember it.  I remember screaming "you lying, duplicitous bastard" at the telly, and then checking what "duplicitous" meant.


Means "having two ovens"


----------



## weltweit (Dec 28, 2020)

When the agreement was first mooted to be complete it was reported to have 2,000 pages, later it was reported to have 1,200 pages. What happened to the missing 800 pages is what I want to know!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

weltweit said:


> When the agreement was first mooted to be complete it was reported to have 2,000 pages, later it was reported to have 1,200 pages. What happened to the missing 800 pages is what I want to know!!


They found they'd printed lots of it twice by mistake


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 28, 2020)

weltweit said:


> When the agreement was first mooted to be complete it was reported to have 2,000 pages, later it was reported to have 1,200 pages. What happened to the missing 800 pages is what I want to know!!


Sadly, my job involves understanding some parts of EU State aid regulations. I am back working tomorrow.  Apart from 3 things I was meant to get done before xmas,  I fear "figuring out what the fuck this means for my job" may also feature tomorrow.

In time honoured tradition, I am preparing for this by getting wankered tonight.  

With a bit of luck, my bit will be in the missing 800 pages.


----------



## mx wcfc (Dec 28, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> They found they'd printed lots of it twice by mistake


Tell me you are joking.  _Please_


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 28, 2020)

mx wcfc said:


> Tell me you are joking.  _Please_


I wish I was.


----------



## weltweit (Dec 29, 2020)

I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister? Perhaps there will be a new EU chief negotiator when financial services are on the table?


----------



## gosub (Dec 29, 2020)

ska invita said:


> Musicians Union have been campaigning on this for the last few years, it is not an issue the government was unaware of


Well its put on 100,000 signatures since then which can't hurt


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2020)

What an amazing deal!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

editor said:


> What an amazing deal!
> 
> View attachment 245926
> 
> View attachment 245927


post 4651








						The big Brexit thread - news, updates and discussion
					

Have you just time travelled direct from 2016?    Just checking what this deal actually means, I know the ramifications, just checking they are the same as before today.  This    And this    Are 100% True now?    Fucking shame if they are.    Just want confirmation.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Winot (Dec 29, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister?



No


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister? Perhaps there will be a new EU chief negotiator when financial services are on the table?


More to do with fish being something that all punters know about, unlike the GDP contribution that derives from invisible earnings from the service sector.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2020)

Reading the various twatter comments on the deal it seems like the conservatives just wanted to say a deal had been done as soon as possible so gave it bare minimum it needed to get signed. There's still a vast chunk of details to sort out and this deal isn't the full deal or indeed a good deal.

But whatever brexits done, time for the press to focus on battler Boris and his awesome skills.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 29, 2020)

The Guardian put forward nuclear weapons as being something not diminished by Brexit. 








						The Guardian view on Britain’s global role: shrinking around Brexit | Editorial
					

Editorial: In a world of superpower rivalry, the UK must urgently rebuild the strategic alliances that were sabotaged by its departure from the EU




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## NoXion (Dec 29, 2020)

Not sure what the UK's nuclear arsenal has to do with the EU. It's the Yanks who hold that particular leash.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Not from China?  Alibaba and Ali Express?


And ebay. Either UK or China. UK business sellers probably get more stock from the EU though... but I guess businesses have different importation rules anyway.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 29, 2020)

Post rates have just gone up again massively, so that has killed selling eg records abroad... not sure how linked that is with brexit though, as all the increases were this year... maybe they were preemptive.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

Some interesting quotes in this Guardian piece about politics in the former 'red wall' Notts mining towns, including these reflections on Brexit:



> ...although he and his wife, Christine, a former care assistant, are “comfortably off”, he voted leave in the EU referendum, hoping it would be a catalyst for change for the area. “I just thought things couldn’t get any worse for a lot of people round here and maybe it would lead to more internal investment if we left.”





> “I was never a lover of the EU. I always thought it primarily represented the interests of bosses, big business and the banks, it rarely did anything for ordinary people. I accepted that it could initially put the British economy in a tough position, but I thought we could get a deal like Norway has. I never voted leave for a no deal.”
> 
> Now, Whitehead says, “I’d probably vote differently,” if given the opportunity again. “We also underestimated how it has in some ways ‘legitimised’ xenophobia and racist opinions.”





> “We’ve opened Pandora’s box. In the pub, they say things like ‘If they [foreign workers] are in our factories we haven’t got control. We want them out. Brexit is our way of getting those people back to where they came from.’ I challenge them but it gets really nasty. People feel emboldened to say things they wouldn’t have done before.”





> “Why should we do what other countries tell us? All these foreign countries want to do business with us – they can’t afford not to. Most people don’t like change, but they’ll get use to it,”


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

From today, the post office are recommending the use of customs declaration forms, CN22 or CN23, detailing the type of good, its value and its weight for posting parcels to the EU including Ireland:


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> From today, the post office are recommending the use of customs declaration forms, CN22 or CN23, detailing the type of good, its value and its weight for posting parcels to the EU including Ireland:
> 
> View attachment 245934


Some times you have to fill in a form like this in Portugal if you have been sent some items from the States or China in order for Portuguese customs to clear it.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Some interesting quotes in this Guardian piece about politics in the former 'red wall' Notts mining towns, including these reflections on Brexit:


I hear the arguments put forward by the ex-miners in this article most days and concur with the views given. Living in the former mining communities it’s forever in your face how much Thatcher did to fragment the local communities. But Blair’s New Labour and the Labour Party that created must also shoulder much of the blame.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I hear the arguments put forward by the ex-miners in this article most days and concur with the views given. Living in the former mining communities it’s forever in your face how much Thatcher did to fragment the local communities. But Blair’s New Labour and the Labour Party that created must also shoulder much of the blame.


Yep, over 43 years of continuous and overt neoliberal governance brought us here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I hear the arguments put forward by the ex-miners in this article most days and concur with the views given. Living in the former mining communities it’s forever in your face how much Thatcher did to fragment the local communities. But Blair’s New Labour and the Labour Party that created must also shoulder much of the blame.


By the labour party new labour created you mean newer labour?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

TopCat said:


> The Guardian put forward nuclear weapons as being something not diminished by Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So we'll have aircraft carriers without aircraft and nuclear weapons we can't use unless uncle says yes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Yep, over 43 years of continuous and overt neoliberal governance brought us here.
> 
> View attachment 245937


One of his eyebrows booed him, the other cheered


----------



## two sheds (Dec 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> By the labour party new labour created you mean newer labour?



"New New Labour" could be a winner  or yes "Newer Labour"


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

two sheds said:


> "New New Labour" could be a winner  or yes "Newer Labour"


Reminds me of simpler times when the swivel-eyed loon fraternity were content with shouting _ZaNu Liebore _into the void.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Dec 29, 2020)

Neu! Labour


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> I hear the arguments put forward by the ex-miners in this article most days and concur with the views given. Living in the former mining communities it’s forever in your face how much Thatcher did to fragment the local communities. But Blair’s New Labour and the Labour Party that created must also shoulder much of the blame.



Exactly. We heard these arguments and points being made over and over again in the run up to the last GE and over Brexit. Well, when I say ‘we heard these arguments’ some of us did.....


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

S☼I said:


> Neu! Labour


New, improved Labour


----------



## kabbes (Dec 29, 2020)

Labour will make us free.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> New, improved Labour



Torylite?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Torylite?


_I can't believe it's not...._


----------



## Raheem (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> _I can't believe it's not...._


...better.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 29, 2020)

Going to make ordering mushrooms from the Netherlands a bit trickier 

"Agricultural goods - Commercial sample" with their own HS tariff no.

Hasty disclaimer: not that I ever have done


----------



## tommers (Dec 29, 2020)

brogdale said:


> From today, the post office are recommending the use of customs declaration forms, CN22 or CN23, detailing the type of good, its value and its weight for posting parcels to the EU including Ireland:
> 
> View attachment 245934


Just made my job more painful.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 29, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister? Perhaps there will be a new EU chief negotiator when financial services are on the table?



more likely because services are 80% of the U.K. gdp, and fishing is worth fuck all.

So the eu gets to cripple our economy, whilst giving us some crumbs for the 0.05%


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2020)

More control back for Britain! Well done Brexiteers!



> Holidaymakers or online shoppers who buy items from the EU that are valued at more than £390 will have to pay customs duties, the government has revealed.
> 
> VAT and handling fees may also apply on some items, while parcels may be held up in post offices until all duties and fees have been cleared by the recipient in the UK.





> Posting to friends and family in the EU including Ireland is also going to become more bureaucratic. Those sending parcels from 1 January will be required to complete customs declaration forms, CN22 or CN23, detailing the type of good, its value and its weight.












						UK shoppers face Brexit duties on holiday and online purchases
					

UK shoppers may have parcels held at post office until fees paid as red tape introduced from 1 January




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 29, 2020)

Still, we're set up for a proper Lexit now


----------



## kabbes (Dec 29, 2020)

Speaking as someone who has worked for over 20 years in the financial services industry, I’m curious to know what area of the financial services industry people think has been crippled by the current arrangement?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Torylite?


DieTory


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Speaking as someone who has worked for over 20 years in the financial services industry, I’m curious to know what area of the financial services industry people think has been crippled by the current arrangement?


Insurance contracts are now being written in the EU...the marine insurance P&I clubs have moved a lot of underwriting to EU subsidiaries. I suspect the claims handlers will then drift to the EU, followed by the lawyers.

I suspect we'll see English law arbitration in the EU becoming a thing.

I suspect stuff like Euro clearing doesn't employ many people, certainly not many we'd miss. But London is no longer the obvious choice for a financial services HQ.

I don't think it's crippling, just the start of a slow decline. I may be wrong.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 29, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> Insurance contracts are now being written in the EU...the marine insurance P&I clubs have moved a lot of underwriting to EU subsidiaries. I suspect the claims handlers will then drift to the EU, followed by the lawyers.
> 
> I suspect we'll see English law arbitration in the EU becoming a thing.
> 
> ...


I have a senior position in a multinational insurer (edit to point out that is only relevant to show that I know what I’m talking about on this, because I’ve been directly involved in making the operations Brexit-proof).  We reorganised our European operations in 2018, as did all the rest of the multinational insurers based in London.  The way the company is managed is largely unaffected — it’s just the legal structure of the statutory entities that the business is written through that has been changed.  In short, Instead of the head office of the EU group being in London, it’s been changed to be one of what was previously an EU branch.  The business is still being managed out of London just as it was before, though, albeit with governance changes surrounding where board meetings are officially held etc.  And the Lloyd’s syndicate is able to fulfil its EU commitments through Lloyd’s Brussels operation.  There is some tax revenue on unallocated profit that would have gone to the UK exchequer and now doesn’t, but that’s relatively minor.  Otherwise, it’s operationally as you were.

Claims handling mostly happens locally, by the way, with phone operations wherever it’s cheapest.

Basically, the whole thing was set up to cope with a worst-case no deal scenario. What’s actually happened is well within what has been allowed for.  There is no need to alter anything further at this point.

Insurance is an truly international business with the expertise heavily based in London.  Given that you can have your governance systems located in different places to your actual operations, I can’t see why there would be a drift in those operations away from where the expertise lies.  If it hasn’t happened in the past twenty years despite the expense of operating in London, I don’t think that this small change in regulatory arrangement will do it.  (And that’s before we get into the fact that a lot of insurance business written out of London is US based anyway).


----------



## editor (Dec 29, 2020)

That sovereign government is clearly a vast improvement


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

editor said:


> That sovereign government is clearly a vast improvement
> 
> View attachment 245971


It's only worth an auld sovereign


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister? Perhaps there will be a new EU chief negotiator when financial services are on the table?


As I understand it the EU can give equivalence (that is allow financial services) at will, but this can also be taken away without warning, there was stuff in the papers about this recently


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

weltweit said:


> I wonder if the fact that financial services were largely omitted from this deal and why crux points revolved around fishing, were because Barnier is a former French fisheries minister? Perhaps there will be a new EU chief negotiator when financial services are on the table?











						'Equivalence’ with the EU on financial services
					

Equivalence is a system which can be used to grant domestic market access to foreign firms in certain areas of financial services.




					commonslibrary.parliament.uk


----------



## Winot (Dec 29, 2020)

dp


----------



## Winot (Dec 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I have a senior position in a multinational insurer (edit to point out that is only relevant to show that I know what I’m talking about on this, because I’ve been directly involved in making the operations Brexit-proof).  We reorganised our European operations in 2018, as did all the rest of the multinational insurers based in London.  The way the company is managed is largely unaffected — it’s just the legal structure of the statutory entities that the business is written through that has been changed.  In short, Instead of the head office of the EU group being in London, it’s been changed to be one of what was previously an EU branch.  The business is still being managed out of London just as it was before, though, albeit with governance changes surrounding where board meetings are officially held etc.  And the Lloyd’s syndicate is able to fulfil its EU commitments through Lloyd’s Brussels operation.  There is some tax revenue on unallocated profit that would have gone to the UK exchequer and now doesn’t, but that’s relatively minor.  Otherwise, it’s operationally as you were.
> 
> Claims handling mostly happens locally, by the way, with phone operations wherever it’s cheapest.
> 
> ...



This is what I am hearing from a friend who works for Goldman Sachs too - that they set up EU-based ops to prepare for no deal.

In my bit of law we have had to open a German office and employ Germans in order to continue to act in the EU.

It will be ironic if one result of Brexit is to increase cross-border trade in services.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 29, 2020)

Under New (Labour) Management


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 29, 2020)

N-Labz


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 29, 2020)

mojo pixy said:


> N-Labz


Ultimate Labour


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 29, 2020)

editor said:


> That sovereign government is clearly a vast improvement
> 
> View attachment 245971



I think you and Westminster have a very different idea of sovereignty.

Sovereignty is everyone doing exactly what the people in Downing Street say to do.

Vicious Commie-Liberal Treason is questioning or asking how.


----------



## Sprocket. (Dec 29, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Ultimate Labour


Conclusion Labour.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 29, 2020)

EHIC to be replaced by  UK Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC) 








						Applying for healthcare cover abroad (GHIC and EHIC)
					

Find out if you’re eligible to apply for a new UK EHIC or UK Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC).




					www.nhs.uk


----------



## A380 (Dec 29, 2020)

The NHS will get an extra £350M a week from Friday. 

It must be true, I read it on a bus.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 29, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> EHIC to be replaced by  UK Global Health Insurance Card (GHIC)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's good news, though why the scheme get's the tag 'global' is a little less obvious. It seems that there's nothing beyond agreement with the EU, so 'global' seems to relate more to Johnsonesque bluster than any basis in reality.


----------



## elbows (Dec 29, 2020)

elbows said:


> I have started to skim some of the trade agreement documents.
> 
> The language is tedious but there is the odd nugget that somehow makes it worth my time.
> 
> ...



Also from the nugget hunt department:



> The text cites "modern e-mail software packages including Outlook, Mozilla Mail as well as Netscape Communicator 4.x."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I have a senior position in a multinational insurer (edit to point out that is only relevant to show that I know what I’m talking about on this, because I’ve been directly involved in making the operations Brexit-proof).  We reorganised our European operations in 2018, as did all the rest of the multinational insurers based in London.  The way the company is managed is largely unaffected — it’s just the legal structure of the statutory entities that the business is written through that has been changed.  In short, Instead of the head office of the EU group being in London, it’s been changed to be one of what was previously an EU branch.  The business is still being managed out of London just as it was before, though, albeit with governance changes surrounding where board meetings are officially held etc.  And the Lloyd’s syndicate is able to fulfil its EU commitments through Lloyd’s Brussels operation.  There is some tax revenue on unallocated profit that would have gone to the UK exchequer and now doesn’t, but that’s relatively minor.  Otherwise, it’s operationally as you were.
> 
> Claims handling mostly happens locally, by the way, with phone operations wherever it’s cheapest.
> 
> ...



Services are still to be agreed betweeen the EU and UK. The "deal" does not cover this.

It was Thatchers "Big Bang" in the City that changed London to the financial centre it is now. Brexit may see gradual decline as has been posted elsewhere. It was not inevitable that London got to be big international centre of finance.

It might be a positive thing if this decline happened. But that would be if there was a plan to change the London economy away from being based on the servicing the City ( which a lot of people I know rely on for work).

Slightly off topic but the pandemic could have long term effect on the City. More than Brexit.

Im going around empty offices in the City. WFH has shown that prestigous offices in City are not necessary. People Ive talked to say companies are still functioning ok. Few people come in- postroom/ IT and some who were coming in a few days a week.

Given these big City companies are international it might make them think is being based in City of London necessary?

To me its what happens to all those workers in service industries in long term that is the issue.

Some of the people I work with also voted Remain partly as they were concerned Brexit might effect the London economy based on the City- which provides them jobs

Its not so much as how it will effect the financial services- they will survive here or in another city- its how it affects those in relatively low paid service industries who can't just wfh or move.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 29, 2020)

Sprocket. said:


> Conclusion Labour.


Cul-de-sac Labour.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 29, 2020)

LiE - Labour in Exile 


oh wait


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> I have a senior position in a multinational insurer (edit to point out that is only relevant to show that I know what I’m talking about on this, because I’ve been directly involved in making the operations Brexit-proof).  We reorganised our European operations in 2018, as did all the rest of the multinational insurers based in London.  The way the company is managed is largely unaffected — it’s just the legal structure of the statutory entities that the business is written through that has been changed.  In short, Instead of the head office of the EU group being in London, it’s been changed to be one of what was previously an EU branch.  The business is still being managed out of London just as it was before, though, albeit with governance changes surrounding where board meetings are officially held etc.  And the Lloyd’s syndicate is able to fulfil its EU commitments through Lloyd’s Brussels operation.  There is some tax revenue on unallocated profit that would have gone to the UK exchequer and now doesn’t, but that’s relatively minor.  Otherwise, it’s operationally as you were.
> 
> Claims handling mostly happens locally, by the way, with phone operations wherever it’s cheapest.
> 
> ...



"LONDON (Reuters) - Europe will see its biggest transfer of share trading in more than two decades when stock exchanges open for business in 2021, with Brexit shifting its centre of gravity away from London"

___________

"Ryanair and Wizz Air will strip UK investors of their voting rights from 1 January to comply with European Union rules on airline ownership.

After the Brexit transition period ends, UK and other non-EU shareholders will not be able to vote at annual general meetings, the two airlines said in separate statements."


----------



## kabbes (Dec 29, 2020)

pseudonarcissus said:


> "LONDON (Reuters) - Europe will see its biggest transfer of share trading in more than two decades when stock exchanges open for business in 2021, with Brexit shifting its centre of gravity away from London"
> 
> ___________
> 
> ...


What’s that got to do with anything?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 29, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Speaking as someone who has worked for over 20 years in the financial services industry, I’m curious to know what area of the financial services industry people think has been crippled by the current arrangement?



Looking this up. According to FT financial services are not part of the deal yet. Discussions will take place early next year. This will result in a Memorandum of Understanding. This does not have the same weight as a treaty.

From FT:



> Brussels will grant equivalence rights “when they are in the EU’s interest”, the bloc said in its December 24 statement.



Way I read it the MofU would mean that EU could still remove these rights at some future date with 30 days notice.

So Im not saying the finance service industry is crippled but comes across to me that EU have the whip hand in future over ability of financial services to operate in EU. It will be a card that EU will potentially play in future.

Also read this James Meadway article today ( he was advisor to McDonnell ) he points out that financial services are made up from different sectors who do not all have the same needs. Insurance/ pension funds/  hedge funds/ banks

At this time the threat to financial stability is from political decisions more:

, 





> the global financial system itself is not primed to trash a reforming government in Britain. With a floating exchange rate and interest rates on government borrowing at world-historic lows, neither currency speculation nor the attacks of “bond vigilantes”, pushing up interest rates, are the dangers they might once have been. Instead, in a world where international co-operation is in short supply, the bigger risks are from _political_ decisions taken elsewhere that can threaten financial stability here.
> 
> For instance, Britain’s financial institutions require access to the EU’s vast capital markets. Outside of the EU, however, this access is no longer a right, but conditional on Brussels’ approval. The commission has already used the threat of withdrawing access rights to put pressure on Switzerland in negotiations. It could do so against other non-members







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				












						Does Labour really need to 'repair' its relationship with the City? | James Meadway
					

These are the three issues the opposition should keep in mind, says James Meadway, associate fellow of the Institute for Public Policy Research




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## kabbes (Dec 29, 2020)

I think what you’re missing, Gramsci , is that those rules apply to ‘U.K. companies operating in Europe’.  But that’s not how financial companies are set up now.  You can’t think of a multinational insurance company, for example, a just being a single entity, like a manufacturer.  The insurer will set up entities in every country that they operate from, either to be branches of some central statutory entity or to be statutory entities in their own right.  Those parts within the EU can then all feed into an EU parent company, whilst non-EU parts feed into a non-EU parent.  (That’s an example — there are other ways of doing it).  The EU group is subject to EU regulation and EU licensing whilst the other parts of the group follow the rules of wherever they are located instead.  There’s no need to obtain equivalence in London for the part of the group you are locating in Holland.

The thing is, though, that’s just the legal structure for governance purposes.  The whole massive group can actually be managed and staffed from countries other than those they sure registered in, subject to meeting all regulatory criteria regarding local representation.  There’s nothing in principle stopping you having an EU head office in Luxembourg that is essentially just a brass plaque and running the company from London.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 29, 2020)

future of ful passporting is fickle and subject to the whims of the regulatory players. anything can be traded anywhere but the guts of the transactional process is now in centrally cleared for risk management. the UK has the biggest clearing structures outside the US, 90% of the Eur denominated swap hedges are pushed across to london.  the euro bourses and houses have been unable to dent this traditional process despite banging billions into the game. The participants can easily move to a secure EU jurisdiction clearer- it doesnt matter who, as the regimented processes are the same. at present, big euro players use london cos everybody always has done. where it becomes a pain in the arse to work through london, they will switch- and it is literally a switch of yer transaction routing to do this. this is a huge concern for the BoE ( a registered EUR clearer and depositary btw) and is currently all hands on deck to see how it can be averted. a few tempters from europe and cheaper processing costs could swing it very quickly. zzzzzzzzzzz i know


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 29, 2020)

and the living nightmare of capital adequacy reqiurements under basel3 could be the push that forces the move


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 29, 2020)

im out of this actually. i dont care tbh


----------



## Buddy Bradley (Dec 29, 2020)

This is encouraging - God knows what made it into the rest of the document that nobody has had time to read properly...









						Brexit deal mentions Netscape browser and Mozilla Mail
					

Experts suggest officials saved time by copying and pasting text from old legislation.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 29, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> future of ful passporting is fickle and subject to the whims of the regulatory players. anything can be traded anywhere but the guts of the transactional process is now in centrally cleared for risk management. the UK has the biggest clearing structures outside the US, 90% of the Eur denominated swap hedges are pushed across to london.  the euro bourses and houses have been unable to dent this traditional process despite banging billions into the game. The participants can easily move to a secure EU jurisdiction clearer- it doesnt matter who, as the regimented processes are the same. at present, big euro players use london cos everybody always has done. where it becomes a pain in the arse to work through london, they will switch- and it is literally a switch of yer transaction routing to do this. this is a huge concern for the BoE ( a registered EUR clearer and depositary btw) and is currently all hands on deck to see how it can be averted. a few tempters from europe and cheaper processing costs could swing it very quickly. zzzzzzzzzzz i know


very elegantly put...the advocate for "light touch" regulation and freedom was the UK. I suspect a lot of financial services, particularly regulated services, with be on the move from London and Zurich (because, of course, they have lost their lobbyist, the UK) too Luxembourg and the like.

Effective control of financial transactions will be the battlefield meaning brass plates in European capitals won't be sufficient for regulators.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 29, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> im out of this actually. i dont care tbh


Me too...that's why I moved to Brazil. I delivered services in the EU with a hard hat and safety boots in my bag...that meets most customs officer's definition or "work" rather than "business" and may well need a visa from now on. The days of jumping on a plane to a shipyard in Germany then scheduling an unexpected trip to Gdansk on the way home may well be over. We're recruiting in Hamburg and Paris now, rather than London.


----------



## pseudonarcissus (Dec 29, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> This is encouraging - God knows what made it into the rest of the document that nobody has had time to read properly...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


but this was the whole point; to go back to happier times. I would have thought Farage would have preferred to ban computers entirely.

Editor and I still reminisce about our Palm Trios...maybe someone could write in something about free roaming for Palm devices!


----------



## Yossarian (Dec 29, 2020)

Buddy Bradley said:


> This is encouraging - God knows what made it into the rest of the document that nobody has had time to read properly...
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> The UK government has not yet responded to the BBC's request for comment.



Maybe they should try emailing bojo@hotmail.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.



Liked because you posted this, but the post makes me sad


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 30, 2020)

I love eels me / fascinating creatures- they are massively endangered tho.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

Lucy Fur said:


> Liked because you posted this, but the post makes me sad



Don't be, he's a bigot who campaigned alongside UKIP


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 30, 2020)

How do you get into the business o


Buddy Bradley said:


> This is encouraging - God knows what made it into the rest of the document that nobody has had time to read properly...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't think they'd written 1400 pages at teatime on christmas eve tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.



At anywhere between £600-£750 a kilo


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Don't be, he's a bigot who campaigned alongside UKIP


Reely dumb.


----------



## mojo pixy (Dec 30, 2020)

eel live to regret it


----------



## andysays (Dec 30, 2020)

All these eel puns are not big and they're definitely not elver...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> At anywhere between £600-£750 a kilo


Elvers cost a fortune.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

Slippery slope mentioning fish.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

UK performers raise alarm as Brexit deal threatens EU touring
					

Actors, musicians and comedians sign petition urging Britain to negotiate free culture work permit




					www.theguardian.com
				



It makes mention of carnets but they are not needed. Probably written a while ago. 
Ivory inlays are an issue too.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 30, 2020)

I woke up this morning and heard IDSmith bleating on about how Brexit was a good deal. I've reached peak Brexit saturation. From any angle i've just had enough......of any of it.😫


----------



## Treacle Toes (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.




What struck me about this was his reasoning for voting leave, summarised here as being about his own profit/access to larger markets. Not a word about what others were going to lose...his 1-2 mil turnover wasn't enough? Fuck him and anyone else who sided with UKIP.


----------



## Ax^ (Dec 30, 2020)

jebus what the debate on the news this morning is just showing what a piece of crap parliament we have in this country


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2020)

Another huge win for cunting Brexit.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.




In the UKIP video he was saying that being in EU stopped him from selling eels in other parts of the world. Im not sure if that was the case. Fits in wiith with what he was saying here. He thought that being out of EU would lead to being able to sell eels worldwide. Was EU really stopping him selling Eels outside EU?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> UK performers raise alarm as Brexit deal threatens EU touring
> 
> 
> Actors, musicians and comedians sign petition urging Britain to negotiate free culture work permit
> ...



There's a bespoke thread for this issue now. I've asked a question about paying tax on it but haven't had a reply yet


----------



## kabbes (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> In the UKIP video he was saying that being in EU stopped him from selling eels in other parts of the world. Im not sure if that was the case. Fits in wiith with what he was saying here. He thought that being out of EU would lead to being able to sell eels worldwide. Was EU really stopping him selling Eels outside EU?


Not saying he isn’t a fucking idiot but I think the idea is that being in the EU prevented us from forming our own trade deals with other countries.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> There's a bespoke thread for this issue now. I've asked a question about paying tax on it but haven't had a reply yet


Can you give a link — I had a quick look and couldn’t find it in the more recent thread pages.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

Ax^ said:


> jebus what the debate on the news this morning is just showing what a piece of crap parliament we have in this country


This is the day any pretensions to the UK making its own laws with parliament being sovereign die

Today marks the demise of any claim to parliamentary democracy in the UK as the government and their useful idiots in the labour party force through the agreement effectively unread and so unscrutinised


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

kabbes said:


> Can you give a link — I had a quick look and couldn’t find it in the more recent thread pages.











						Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry
					

There’s a lot of rumour and half truths floating around at the moment, and there’s a lot of people on these boards it’s going to impact on, so I thought a thread to pull the various bits of information together might be useful...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Slippery slope mentioning fish.


It'll drive him to the liquor?


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.




Reason he could not export outside EU was that eels are endangered species protected by international convention:




> Since the 1970s, the numbers of eels reaching Europe is thought to have declined by about 90%.
> Today they are protected as an endangered species by the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species of Wild Fauna and Flora (CITES)



Illegal eel exporters exposed by Countryfile

So not the fault of being in the EU. Export ban since 2010

Funnily enough UKIP didnt mention that detail.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

So I was wrong about the ERG hardliners, and the Tory civil war over Europe looks to be over. For now, st least: I suspect in the longer term the question of how far the UK can and should deviate from EU standards will start to open some of the faultlines up again in a slightly different form. In the meantime, Johnson is leading a party with an 80-seat majority that's more united than it's been for several years and Labour is in its weakest position for decades. Plus, Brexit is about to make a lot of people's lives that little bit shitter, with no apparent upsides to it either economically or politically. I can't see anything to celebrate here.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Don't be, he's a bigot who campaigned alongside UKIP




In the video the UKIP MEP is complaining about scientists. I think the UKIP people and the businessman knew this was not fault of EU but trade outside EU was stopped by international convention to protect an endangered species.

They used this as stick to beat EU with knowing full well that was not the issue.

This kind of thing permeated whole debate about getting out of EU.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Can't even pretend that I give a flying [  ] fuck about this, but it is quite amusing to see the reality of 'sovereignty' in the neoliberal world of 'great powers'...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

Lib Dems make a pitch


----------



## prunus (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.




I know we’re not supposed to say this because ‘inclusivity’ and ‘sneering’ and so on but I don’t care: fuckwit gets what fuckwit deserves (obviously his staff etc might not deserve it, but he does).


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 30, 2020)

prunus said:


> I know we’re not supposed to say this because ‘inclusivity’ and ‘sneering’ and so on but I don’t care: fuckwit gets what fuckwit deserves (obviously his staff etc might not deserve it, but he does).



Well he seems to have learned his lesson, but I do get rather annoyed with people who vote first and think later. If him and his ilk come out on the streets to demand tory blood with the rest of us once this has all gone tits up then all will be forgiven.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> I do admire this guys optimism that brexit at any point would have led to the world demanding vast swathes of British eels.





Lucy Fur said:


> Liked because you posted this, but the post makes me sad


He took EU money to relocate his business 

He spoke in a UKIP pro-brexit video

Fuck him


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 30, 2020)

It wasn’t the Brexit he voted for apparently. Self interest Brexit again. Big boy trousers. No moaning please.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Dec 30, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> It wasn’t the Brexit he voted for apparently. No moaning please.



A lesson the worryingly large continuity remain cranks also consistently fail to learn.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 30, 2020)

A rushed populist referendum lacking in specifics has lead to much dissatisfaction across the spectrum. Cannot change that now tho.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2020)

I hope he can set those creatures free so they can enjoy their own sovereignty.

The word leavemoaner is too clunky, surely somebody can think up a better one.

Anyway, I agree with what has been written above, fuck him the brexit moron.

I hope he suffers after selling every bit of everything he owns and shares the proceeds with his workers.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

not-bono-ever said:


> Cannot change that now tho.



We can't change any of it now.  In a sense, though, it is a good thing that Brexit and the form it will take are now settled, since the old 'leaver' and 'remainer' identities are now obviously redundant, so people might stop trying to re-fight 2016 again and again and focus on the future.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Don't be, he's a bigot who campaigned alongside UKIP


 I should have been clearer, not sad for him, but because of him.


----------



## andysays (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> It'll drive him to the liquor?


You could even say his plans for world-wide eel exports have turned out to be just pie and mash in the sky...


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

521 : 73


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

a Tory majority of 448


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

After much reading around there is apparently a vast market for eels in Asia, which factors into why they are so expensive. They are also classed as endangered but apparently thriving in the Severn (so you can ask one of two things 1) how do we make this population collapse as well or 2) why do we want to fish them out as well?)

I'm not entirely sure how leaving the EU was meant to facilitate getting access to this market, and I also question the wisdom and logistics of transporting live eels 5000 miles away to Beijing or China in the age of environmentalism and sustainability.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Thread has just over 32 hours left to live.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Thread has just over 32 hours left to live.


It wont just lay down though...


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 521 : 73


71 against so Libs Dem , SNP etc  but Labours rebelllion didn't seem to take off


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It wont just lay down though...


Not with MacDonalds saying there could be shortages of lettuce and tomatoes for their burgers


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> 71 against so Libs Dem , SNP etc  but Labours rebelllion didn't seem to take off


Who?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Not with MacDonalds saying there could be shortages of lettuce and tomatoes for their burgers


What have I done.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Who?
> 
> View attachment 246119


A world mourns


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What have I done.


it'll save on waste , normally see loads of people take it out.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It wont just lay down though...


Bit obvious, but why not...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Not with MacDonalds saying there could be shortages of lettuce and tomatoes for their burgers



They've never let a lack of meat stop them.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)




----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

Meanwhile...looks a bit lonely in full-on swivel-eyed loon land...


----------



## prunus (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Who?
> 
> View attachment 246119



The MP for quite a lot of us on here (Dulwich and West Norwood).


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

prunus said:


> The MP for quite a lot of us on here (Dulwich and West Norwood).


Honestly never heard of her.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> What do people realistically think they will drop? It costs £900 minimum to go to an ET now. The EU didnt save us the Tory move that got us to that point.








						How much does bringing an employment tribunal claim cost and how much will it cost | Boys & Maughan Solicitors
					

Read about different ways to fund your case, how much it could cost, your options for instructing us and how long the whole process could take.




					www.boysandmaughan.co.uk
				



.

' 
*Other expenses*
There are currently no fees for bringing employment tribunal cases. The government’s introduction of employment tribunal fees in 2013 was later ruled unlawful but that does not mean there may not be fees in the future. '


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 246127


Bag to whimper situation


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Not with MacDonalds saying there could be shortages of lettuce and tomatoes for their burgers


and what are mcd's saying?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> and what are mcd's saying?











						McDonald's issues food shortage warning due to Brexit
					

Eagle-eyed fans of the fast food chain have spotted warning signs in some McDonald's stores




					www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> McDonald's issues food shortage warning due to Brexit
> 
> 
> Eagle-eyed fans of the fast food chain have spotted warning signs in some McDonald's stores
> ...



Fake news. The sign was put up erroneously:

"McDonald's has confirmed that the posters were distributed to a number of restaurants across the UK last week as a 'contingency measure'.
The fast food chain is understood to have told restaurant teams they are no longer needed and is not currently anticipating any supply issues."


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> McDonald's issues food shortage warning due to Brexit
> 
> 
> Eagle-eyed fans of the fast food chain have spotted warning signs in some McDonald's stores
> ...


Penge, though; this may only relate to historic Kent?


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 30, 2020)

platinumsage said:


> Fake news. The sign was put up erroneously:
> 
> "McDonald's has confirmed that the posters were distributed to a number of restaurants across the UK last week as a 'contingency measure'.
> The fast food chain is understood to have told restaurant teams they are no longer needed and is not currently anticipating any supply issues."


Breathes huge sigh of relief!


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> Breathes huge sigh of relief!


I'm liking the _please ask a member of staff for further details _bit.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'm liking the _please ask a member of staff for further details _bit.


All staffed have been briefed with food supply logistics and the full Brexit agreement


----------



## two sheds (Dec 30, 2020)

I thought it was sus when they mentioned serving lettuce


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I'm liking the _please ask a member of staff for further details _bit.


There were times during the heatwave summer last year when I would hang out in the air con local supermarket asking daft questions like this.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> Meanwhile...looks a bit lonely in full-on swivel-eyed loon land...
> 
> View attachment 246135



Oh I don't know.  With Bernard Jenkin drivelling on about the Glorious Revolution and Theresa May whining about the situation she did so much to bring about the debate today had its fair share of loonery!


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2020)

What about the gherkins are we ok for gherkins or are they all imported?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

The full flourish of flying four flags, again.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The full flourish of flying four flags, again.
> 
> View attachment 246137



It's just fucking embarrassing, isn't it?!


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> What about the gherkins are we ok for gherkins or are they all imported?


McDonald's source the pickles from Turkey.


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The full flourish of flying four flags, again.
> 
> View attachment 246137


It reminds me of this:


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> We can't change any of it now.  In a sense, though, it is a good thing that Brexit and the form it will take are now settled, since the old 'leaver' and 'remainer' identities are now obviously redundant, so people might stop trying to re-fight 2016 again and again and focus on the future.



Yes indeed. Focus on the future is something to do. Especially by focussing on all the bits of this crap deal (i.e. all of it) and reminding everybody just how crap it is and who is responsible.
Another aspect of the future I will focus on is how with increasing divergence Northern Ireland is being made a very separate place to the rest of the UK, and to what extent the Northern Ireland situation can be replicated in Scotland.
Personally I dislike Nationalism, but in an era of binary choices (as in totally crap deal v no deal at all) I am all for Scottish Independence so the poor buggers don't have an eternity of this Tory establishment like the rest of us.
However when it comes to the future, well the 'Festival of Brexit Britain' if that's what it's still called can't be far off, it is due to cost £120million, and will apparently bring the country together leavers and remainers alike.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Northern Ireland is being made a very separate place to the rest of the UK


it has always been a very separate place to the rest of the united kingdom


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes indeed. Focus on the future is something to do. Especially by focussing on all the bits of this crap deal (i.e. all of it) and reminding everybody just how crap it is and who is responsible.
> Another aspect of the future I will focus on is how with increasing divergence Northern Ireland is being made a very separate place to the rest of the UK, and to what extent the Northern Ireland situation can be replicated in Scotland.
> Personally I dislike Nationalism, but in an era of binary choices (as in totally crap deal v no deal at all) I am all for Scottish Independence so the poor buggers don't have an eternity of this Tory establishment like the rest of us.
> However when it comes to the future, well the 'Festival of Brexit Britain' if that's what it's still called can't be far off, it is due to cost £120million, and will apparently bring the country together leavers and remainers alike.


I'd be happy if it eventually triggers Welsh independence and we then rejoin the EU. Or, at the very least,  I'd get a passport with a fucking DRAGON on it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

editor said:


> I'd be happy if it eventually triggers Welsh independence and we then rejoin the EU. Or, at the very least,  I'd get a passport with a fucking DRAGON on it.


yeh how grand it will be to have a passport with a fucking dragon on it and to present it every time you cross into or from england


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Yes indeed. Focus on the future is something to do. Especially by focussing on all the bits of this crap deal (i.e. all of it) and reminding everybody just how crap it is and who is responsible.
> Another aspect of the future I will focus on is how with increasing divergence Northern Ireland is being made a very separate place to the rest of the UK, and to what extent the Northern Ireland situation can be replicated in Scotland.
> Personally I dislike Nationalism, but in an era of binary choices (as in totally crap deal v no deal at all) I am all for Scottish Independence so the poor buggers don't have an eternity of this Tory establishment like the rest of us.
> However when it comes to the future, well the 'Festival of Brexit Britain' if that's what it's still called can't be far off, it is due to cost £120million, and will apparently bring the country together leavers and remainers alike.



The question is, who do you hold responsible...?


----------



## moochedit (Dec 30, 2020)

brogdale said:


> 521 : 73





The39thStep said:


> 71 against so Libs Dem , SNP etc  but Labours rebelllion didn't seem to take off



List of who voted what by party here:









						European Union (Future Relationship) Bill: Third Reading  - Commons' votes in Parliament - UK Parliament
					

European Union (Future Relationship) Bill: Third Reading




					votes.parliament.uk


----------



## two sheds (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> It's just fucking embarrassing, isn't it?!


He's going to start hugging one soon


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> 71 against so Libs Dem , SNP etc  but Labours rebelllion didn't seem to take off


thus adding to suspicions that labour backbenchers don't have a backbone and couldn't organise a drinking spree in a distillery


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> He's going to start hugging wanking into one soon



FFY


----------



## bimble (Dec 30, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> McDonald's source the pickles from Turkey.


I have not been able to verify this claim of yours. However, have learnt this from the McDonald’s gherkin information resource.


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> I have not been able to verify this claim of yours. However, have learnt this from the McDonald’s gherkin information resource.
> 
> View attachment 246150





From here:

FAQS | McDonald's UK


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

bimble said:


> I have not been able to verify this claim of yours. However, have learnt this from the McDonald’s gherkin information resource.
> 
> View attachment 246150


This has just (rather bizarrely) reminded me of one of the few stand up arguments I had during the run up to the tory EU referendum; some nasty old racist cunt had pitched up outside Folyes to scream at passers by that the EU was about to let 80 million Muslims into _our country._

Christ, it really did energise some utter cunts.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 30, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> View attachment 246152
> 
> From here:
> 
> FAQS | McDonald's UK



I've noticed this before - wtf is "beef patty" - it sounds like cow pats  who wants to eat cow pats?


----------



## fishfinger (Dec 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I've noticed this before - wtf is "beef patty" - it sounds like cow pats  who wants to eat cow pats?


Interesting word Patty - Wikipedia


----------



## moochedit (Dec 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I've noticed this before - wtf is "beef patty" - it sounds like cow pats  who wants to eat cow pats?



It is what americans call what we call a "beef burger".


----------



## two sheds (Dec 30, 2020)

fishfinger said:


> Interesting word Patty - Wikipedia





> The term originated in the 17th century as an English alteration of the French word pâté.[1] According to the OED, it is related to the word pasty, which is various ingredients encased in pastry.[1]



That's crap - it clearly comes from cow patties.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

two sheds said:


> I've noticed this before - wtf is "beef patty" - it sounds like cow pats  who wants to eat cow pats?



Have McDonald's only just started saying this, then?  The hipster burger joints round here have been banging on about their beef patties almost as long as their home-made slaw and artisan breadcakes!


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 30, 2020)

McDonald’s have been saying beef patties for decades I think. I can still remember the jingle from the advert - “two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions in a sesame seed bun’. Partly because I used to quote it at adults who tried to get me to buy a burger in McDonald’s, as I hated lettuce, pickles and onions, and occasionally they’d try to claim the burger didn’t contain these things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Have McDonald's only just started saying this, then?  The hipster burger joints round here have been banging on about their beef patties almost as long as their home-made slaw and artisan breadcakes!


as Gerry1time says it's been going on a very long time but you haven't been paying attention


----------



## prunus (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Have McDonald's only just started saying this, then?  The hipster burger joints round here have been banging on about their beef patties almost as long as their home-made slaw and artisan breadcakes!



Not at all - I remember trying to win a Big Mac by saying twoallbeefpattiesspecialsaucelettucecheesepicklesonionsallinasesameseedbun in under 3 seconds back in the early 80s.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

prunus said:


> Not at all - I remember trying to win a Big Mac by saying twoallbeefpattiesspecialsaucelettucecheesepicklesonionsallinasesameseedbun in under 3 seconds back in the early 80s.


trying - and failing?


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh how grand it will be to have a passport with a fucking dragon on it and to present it every time you cross into or from england


If it means that we no longer have a Tory government and - with luck - get rid of the royalty into the bargain - that's fine and dandy by me, thanks.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> as Gerry1time says it's been going on a very long time but you haven't been paying attention



Not to McDonald's, I haven't!  I patronise the hipster joints instead.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

editor said:


> If it means that we no longer have a Tory government and - with luck - get rid of the royalty into the bargain - that's fine and dandy by me, thanks.


you will still have a tory government unless you're intending to move back the far side of offa's dyke


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Not to McDonald's, I haven't!  I patronise the hipster joints instead.


i thought you were discerning with your patronising


----------



## editor (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> you will still have a tory government unless you're intending to move back the far side of offa's dyke


Just knowing my homeland is no longer under Tory rule - and I own a passport with a fucking dragon on it - will bring me a warm glow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

editor said:


> Just knowing my homeland is no longer under Tory rule - and I own a passport with a fucking dragon on it - will bring me a warm glow.


you don't own a passport now: i quote from mine: 'this passport remains the property of the crown at all times and can be cancelled at any time.' i expect that's quite standard wording altho the name of the owners doubtless changes. so you may have a welsh passport at some point in the future. but i don't expect you'll ever actually own one.


----------



## Badgers (Dec 30, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> McDonald's issues food shortage warning due to Brexit
> 
> 
> Eagle-eyed fans of the fast food chain have spotted warning signs in some McDonald's stores
> ...


----------



## prunus (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> trying - and failing?



Eventually the salesperson took pity on me and said I’d done it, so I got my Big Mac. I knew in my heart of hearts though it was a hollow victory - if a delicious one.


----------



## alex_ (Dec 30, 2020)

Theresa May - "We have a deal in trade which benefits the EU, but not a deal in services which would have benefited the UK"

Good summary from a shit ex prime minister


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

alex_ said:


> Theresa May - "We have a deal in trade which benefits the EU, but not a deal in services which would have benefited the UK"
> 
> Good summary from a shit ex prime minister


with every day johnson remains in charge recollection of may's tawdry administration fades and in contrast to the current incumbent she appears increasingly a more considerable and able premier. of course she was shit even in comparison to the nefandous cameron but she benefits greatly from being followed in office by the only person who could make her appear strong and stable.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 30, 2020)

alex_ said:


> Theresa May - "We have a deal in trade which benefits the EU, but not a deal in services which would have benefited the UK"
> 
> Good summary from a shit ex prime minister


May needs to own it. She did more than anyone else to set the course for brexit that has ended up here.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> We can't change any of it now.  In a sense, though, it is a good thing that Brexit and the form it will take are now settled, since the old 'leaver' and 'remainer' identities are now obviously redundant, so people might stop trying to re-fight 2016 again and again and focus on the future.



I'm focussing on the future, that's why I'm rushing my book of rat stew recipes to print now before that fat fucker Jamie Oliver can beat me to it. I even got a snappy press quote for the back cover:

'This book is the worst thing about 2020. And the best thing about 2021.'


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

My three local MPs opposed the deal.

They are from different wings of the party.

My MP Helen Hayes resigned from front bench and abstained. ( I would say centre of party. Very good constituency MP imo)

Florence Eshalomi MP for Vauxhall also abstained and resigned. ( from Progress wing of party)

Bell Ribeiro-Addy MP ( Streatham) voted against. ( From left of the party. New MP who replaced the much disliked Chuka. Got seat on basis of members rejecting the progress led Council candidate. Becomimg a popular well liked MP)

My area was strongly Remain ( and that does include the working class) the MPs from different wings of the party correctly imo took their decision based on how constituents felt about Brexit.









						Brexit: Labour aides quit over Starmer's backing for trade deal
					

Three frontbenchers were among 36 Labour MPs to defy orders to back laws enacting post-Brexit deal.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> We can't change any of it now.  In a sense, though, it is a good thing that Brexit and the form it will take are now settled, since the old 'leaver' and 'remainer' identities are now obviously redundant, so people might stop trying to re-fight 2016 again and again and focus on the future.



Unfortunatlely as Ive been following this past through days this is not settled.

This deal is only the beginning. Financial services are still up for discussion for example.

There is now a new bureaucracy to be set up to oversee the deal/ disputes.

Its far from settled.

Problem with the referendum was that it was simple in or out.

Not what kind of Brexit.

There is still plenty to argue about with this deal being only the start.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> Have McDonald's only just started saying this, then?  The hipster burger joints round here have been banging on about their beef patties almost as long as their home-made slaw and artisan breadcakes!


Two all beef patties special sauce lettuce cheese pickles and onions etc. Fucking adverts.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Unfortunatlely as Ive been following this past through days this is not settled.
> 
> This deal is only the beginning. Financial services are still up for discussion for example.
> 
> ...



That's kind of what I meant tbh.  Most of the details remain to be settled, and it makes more sense to focus on them than to stick in tribal remainer/leaver camps blaming each other for the shit we've landed ourselves in - which all too many people are still doing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> Unfortunatlely as Ive been following this past through days this is not settled.
> 
> This deal is only the beginning. Financial services are still up for discussion for example.
> 
> ...


It's going to be a slow burner, though, isn't it? The immediate effects are the myriad small inconveniences that are now in place that weren't there before (customs declarations, health insurance stuff, work permits, etc) plus the 'big ticket' EU immigration rules for people coming here or going there to live and work. (The end of free movement is the thing I resent more than everything else put together wrt brexit.)

So that's all shit, but for most people it's mostly small stuff (not for everyone of course - people with EU partners wishing to settle here, for instance, now face a mountain of paperwork and expense). 

But the big test comes when one side decides to push against the limits of the agreement on alignment. That could come in six months' time or two years' time, or whenever, and it will be very apparent at that point what abstract notions of a theoretical national sovereignty count for in the real world. 

And we all know which side it will be that will try to take the piss by attempting to undercut the other. As with most of this stuff, the result is that I'll probably be hoping for a strong response from the EU and for 'us' (ie the UK government) to be humiliated and forced to climb down. The UK's 'sovereignty' may have been increased in theory by brexit. In practice, it is likely to have been reduced.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 30, 2020)

So glad there's ANOTHER Brexit thread! Although I hear Brenda from Bristol is fucking raging, watch out OP.

My short summary of what I expect:

‐Obvs nothing gets better for the working class but it wouldn't have anyway, we have to fight for it
‐It will probably lead to a lot of chaos at borders for a while but it'll calm down eventually 
‐ The economy will shrink a bit but given we're already in the second phase of the worst global economic crisis since the Great Depression I'm not sure we will notice 
‐ For most people Covid will be a much more important issue


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 30, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's going to be a slow burner, though, isn't it? The immediate effects are the myriad small inconveniences that are now in place that weren't there before (customs declarations, health insurance stuff, work permits, etc) plus the 'big ticket' EU immigration rules for people coming here or going there to live and work. (The end of free movement is the thing I resent more than everything else put together wrt brexit.)
> 
> So that's all shit, but for most people it's mostly small stuff (not for everyone of course - people with EU partners wishing to settle here, for instance, now face a mountain of paperwork and expense).
> 
> ...


Think the health insurance thing has been sorted out


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> After much reading around there is apparently a vast market for eels in Asia, which factors into why they are so expensive. They are also classed as endangered but apparently thriving in the Severn (so you can ask one of two things 1) how do we make this population collapse as well or 2) why do we want to fish them out as well?)
> 
> I'm not entirely sure how leaving the EU was meant to facilitate getting access to this market, and I also question the wisdom and logistics of transporting live eels 5000 miles away to Beijing or China in the age of environmentalism and sustainability.



There is a market for seafood in China. High end for the well off.

Being in the EU was not stopping this trade. Some sectors of fishing industry were doing well out of it. Not criticising them for that. I grew up in fishing area. Glad that the growth of Chinese market gave some of them a living.

As I showed in previous posts the Brexit "cranks" UKIP and the businessman were blaming EU for something that had nothing to do with EU. The eels were endangered species under international agreements. So no legal export to China

This is example of how Brexit cranks managed to shift debate to blaming EU for things EU was not responsible for.

Unless the argument goes terrible EU for supporting international agreements to protect endangered species.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 30, 2020)

philosophical said:


> Rosslare thriving some more is a possible benefit from Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is something I'm really interested in though. Its gonna be a political nightmare for the Tories to make people pay any kind of duty or tax on goods coming into Britain from Northern Ireland, which makes me think they just won't. But if they don't, then that means effectively that (once everyone's twigged and supply chains have altered) then all EU trade (to and from) can quite easily continue as long as it goes through NI. Which could potentially mean NI goes from being the poorest nation in the UK to a very wealthy constituent part of it couldn't it? 

Obvs in general having even a theoretical border between Britain and NI makes Irish reunification more likely. And I get why people are mentioning that. But actually, if this is right and all trade suddenly has to go through NI, then that will be a massive incentive for the capitalist class to oppose reunification - potentially in the Republic as well. 

Am I seeing this right or am I missing something? Obviously legally this is shakey as fuck but in reality businesses are gonna move goods through NI to get around any trade barriers, and who the fuck is gonna stop them? I feel like some people will make a lot of money out of this somehow.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> This is something I'm really interested in though. Its gonna be a political nightmare for the Tories to make people pay any kind of duty or tax on goods coming into Britain from Northern Ireland, which makes me think they just won't. But if they don't, then that means effectively that (once everyone's twigged and supply chains have altered) then all EU trade (to and from) can quite easily continue as long as it goes through NI. Which could potentially mean NI goes from being the poorest nation in the UK to a very wealthy constituent part of it couldn't it?
> 
> Obvs in general having even a theoretical border between Britain and NI makes Irish reunification more likely. And I get why people are mentioning that. But actually, if this is right and all trade suddenly has to go through NI, then that will be a massive incentive for the capitalist class to oppose reunification - potentially in the Republic as well.
> 
> Am I seeing this right or am I missing something? Obviously legally this is shakey as fuck but in reality businesses are gonna move goods through NI to get around any trade barriers, and who the fuck is gonna stop them? I feel like some people will make a lot of money out of this somehow.


Some people will make money whatever happens


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> Some people will make money whatever happens



Yes but specifically the NI/UK border thing!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

SpackleFrog said:


> Yes but specifically the NI/UK border thing!


Yeh there'll be some fortunes made


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> That's kind of what I meant tbh.  Most of the details remain to be settled, and it makes more sense to focus on them than to stick in tribal remainer/leaver camps blaming each other for the shit we've landed ourselves in - which all too many people are still doing.



But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.

From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.

I agree with littlebabyjesus what is going to happen is how far the "deal" can be pushed.

I also think this is one deal. Nothing to stop a future government coming to power deciding to revisit parts of it it does not lke.

The "deal" is going to be a process. As it goes onthe same faultlines are going to be reproduced.

For example I would be in favour of deal like Swiss had out of EU but retaining free movement.

None of the working class EU people from other EU countries I Ilve and work with in this country see Brexit as doing them any good here. Some have left.

But from what Ive seen from Brexit supporters its not compromise they would make.


----------



## philosophical (Dec 30, 2020)

I think what you're describing is the 'turn a blind eye' option.
I suppose the EU can undercut the trade in Mongolian Yaks by sending them undetected across the Irish border into the UK.
I am not 100% sure that the brexit mantra of controlling the UK borders is achieved by not controlling the UK borders.


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.
> 
> From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.
> 
> ...



I don't think we're disagreeing are we?  You're absolutely right the deal is only the start of a long process, and I suppose I'm arguing we ought to be thinking more about that than bemoaning the fact it's happening.  In that sense remainers _do_ just have to deal with it. As you imply, though, the question is how stable the deal turns out to be in its fundamentals. That brings us back to the question of whether the current truce in the Tory party lasts or not....


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> with every day johnson remains in charge recollection of may's tawdry administration fades and in contrast to the current incumbent she appears increasingly a more considerable and able premier. of course she was shit even in comparison to the nefandous cameron but she benefits greatly from being followed in office by the only person who could make her appear strong and stable.


The Trump effect, I can remember what a duffer Dubya was but Trump makes him look a great statesman


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> But that is not happening. What I see here is Remainers being told tough just deal with it.
> 
> From my reading the its a bit more than details to be settled.
> 
> ...


And that's where May's culpability comes in. To a lesser extent, Labour are responsible for this as well. There was no reason whatever why brexit could not have included retention of free movement. It was the easiest way to do it, after all. 

As the Swiss have discovered, ending free movement has all kinds of other consequences. People voted narrowly to end free movement in 2014, but had a second vote this year following years of deadlock with the EU - the having cake and eating it scenario, essentially, cos they wanted to keep free trade. You might argue that the first referendum in 2014 should have been respected, but the consequences of that vote were such that it was taken back to the people, essentially. I don't see that as particularly anti-democratic as the second vote was better informed than the first one. There, as here, it was nasty r/w nationalists who were pushing hardest to end free movement. The first result was very narrow - tiny, in fact, passing with 50.3% of a 56% turnout. The second vote was not narrow at all. People can and do change their minds. It was 62% of a 59% turnout.


----------



## Winot (Dec 30, 2020)

The pithiest description I’ve seen of Brexit is “a slow puncture”.


----------



## Gramsci (Dec 30, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I don't think we're disagreeing are we?  You're absolutely right the deal is only the start of a long process, and I suppose I'm arguing we ought to be thinking more about that than bemoaning the fact it's happening.  In that sense remainers _do_ just have to deal with it. As you imply, though, the question is how stable the deal turns out to be in its fundamentals. That brings us back to the question of whether the current truce in the Tory party lasts or not....



I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light. 

ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.

Its how the Labour party deals with in the rest of this parliament that Im not clear about.

Im really surprised my MP Helen Hayes has gone to extent of resigning and abstaining. She is a loyalist. Faultlines are still there imo. 

She is not hard left. But her constituency work ( which I know is very good) means she wants independence to represent her Remain constituency views.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I think what you're describing is the 'turn a blind eye' option.


I don't think it is


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light.
> 
> ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.
> 
> ...


Also, there is no reason whatever why anyone, including the entire Labour Party, could not start right now to push for, for instance, membership of the EEA and the restoration of free movement. It might sound 'remoaner' to some, but this stuff wasn't in the referendum question, and there's no reason at all why a future government couldn't advocate it. Over time, as the consequences of the slow puncture (like that!) become apparent, such ideas, which half the population, including most Labour voters, already supports, could easily grow in popularity.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 30, 2020)

Honestly, fuck that eel guy. If your business is shipping live eels around in little polystyrene boxes then fuck you and fuck your business. Stupid cunt.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 30, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Honestly, fuck that eel guy. If you’re business is shipping live eels around in little polystyrene boxes then fuck you and fuck your business. Stupid cunt.


I find it hard to muster that level of enthusiasm


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 30, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> I find it hard to muster that level of enthusiasm



I make that extra bit of effort in the season of goodwill


----------



## Roadkill (Dec 30, 2020)

Gramsci said:


> I think the disagreement is I don't feel the deal is "stable". It never was meant in that light.
> 
> ERG see this. They accept it and will lobby to make Boris push the boundaries of the deal. Its not exactly what they may want but they see it as a start.
> 
> ...



I still don't think we're disagreeing!  By 'stable' I didn't mean unchanging or undynamic, but just that the whole thing - or large parts of it - doesn't fall acrimoniously apart in short order!  I think you're right that the ERG lot will start trying to push the boundaries of it, but it's nevertheless significant that they've accepted it for now and the question is really at what point they start trying to revisit bits of it, and also how they go about it.


----------



## contadino (Dec 30, 2020)

Reading between the lines, the 'deal' is a sideshow and the Tories have no intention of being bound by it's terms. Just a stepping stone.



> There are measures in the agreement for the possible imposition of tariffs if the UK diverges notably from existing standards. Johnson said this should not be viewed by Brexit-minded Conservative MPs as too restrictive.
> 
> “All that’s really saying is the UK won’t immediately send children up chimneys or pour raw sewage all over its beaches,” he said. “We’re not going to regress, and you’d expect that.”
> 
> Saying it was “unlikely” the UK would impose its own tariffs, Johnson added that any imposed by the EU “would have to be proportionate and approved by the arbitrator”, and if that happened regularly, the UK would revert to World Trade Organization trading terms.











						Boris Johnson admits Brexit deal falls short for financial services
					

PM says agreement ‘does not go as far as we would like’ over sector’s access to EU markets




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## A380 (Dec 30, 2020)




----------



## ska invita (Dec 30, 2020)

.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 30, 2020)

A380 said:


> View attachment 246178


Gosh. So incisive.  Is this just another thread full of shit memes?


----------



## brogdale (Dec 30, 2020)

The take on the BBC news site:


----------



## A380 (Dec 30, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Gosh. So incisive.  Is this just another thread full of shit memes?


Hopefully.


----------



## Gerry1time (Dec 30, 2020)

contadino said:


> “All that’s really saying is the UK won’t immediately send children up chimneys or pour raw sewage all over its beaches,” he said.



Ever since I first saw it, I've marvelled at the specific classicist / politico linguistics of that statement. Both that they won't immediately send children up chimneys (but therefore may do so later), and that they won't pour raw sewage all over our beaches, but may still pour it over parts of them.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 30, 2020)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Honestly, fuck that eel guy. If you’re business is shipping live eels around in little polystyrene boxes then fuck you and fuck your business. Stupid cunt.



Eels helped keep London get through the War.  They deserve better than polystyrene boxes.


----------



## gosub (Dec 31, 2020)

A380 said:


> Hopefully.


It would be rather depressing if, in this new era of democratic sovereignty it was discovered all that actually meant was memes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Gosh. So incisive.  Is this just another thread full of shit memes?


Welcome to broken brexit britain


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Also, there is no reason whatever why anyone, including the entire Labour Party, could not start right now to push for, for instance, membership of the EEA and the restoration of free movement. It might sound 'remoaner' to some, but this stuff wasn't in the referendum question, and there's no reason at all why a future government couldn't advocate it. Over time, as the consequences of the slow puncture (like that!) become apparent, such ideas, which half the population, including most Labour voters, already supports, could easily grow in popularity.


This would destroy Labour.


----------



## maomao (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This would destroy Labour.


Tbf there's not much left to destroy.


----------



## mauvais (Dec 31, 2020)

It'll eventually happen. Not much chance of Brexit being the trigger for the collapse of the EU any more, is there? So it'll be around and the failures of Brexit and the demands of capital and all the individualist consumer stuff will want it.

If you wait long enough maybe even a different incarnation of the Tories who, since they like to try and go back to imagined, impossible good old days, perhaps will figure that this is the mid-2000s or even mid-1970s instead of the 1950s.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Your dreaming.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This would destroy Labour.







__





						Loading…
					





					www.thelocal.no


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

8ball said:


> Eels helped keep London get through the War.  They deserve better than polystyrene boxes.


Homes fit for heroes


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> The take on the BBC news site:
> 
> View attachment 246193


This is the end beautiful friend
This is the end my only friend
The end of our elaborate plans
The end of everything that stands


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I saw that as well; suspect it's got more to do with Norwegian party politicking than any actual analysis of the EU/UK deal, tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I saw that as well; suspect it's got more to do with Norwegian party politicking than any actual analysis of the EU/UK deal, tbh.


By Norwegian party politicking are you referring to quislings?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> I saw that as well; suspect it's got more to do with Norwegian party politicking than any actual analysis of the EU/UK deal, tbh.


Possibly but the view is also backed by the  Socialist Left Party so  the call for a public inquiry may have legs


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

Be interesting to find out a bit more about this, seems very petty and hopefully a reciprocal  agreement will be sought at some point 









						Brexit: UK government music touring proposals were 'rejected by the EU'
					

The government says it tried to secure better conditions for UK musicians in the Brexit negotiations.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Be interesting to find out a bit more about this, seems very petty and hopefully a reciprocal  agreement will be sought at some point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If its equivalence that seals the deal we then have to have loads of French pop stars playing over here. I cant think of any.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Remainers trying to further wrench Labour from the working class are not acting in the interests of that class.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If its equivalence that seals the deal we then have to have loads of French pop stars playing over here. I cant think of any.


  Johnny Halliday is dead. That’s about it really


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 31, 2020)

This is so true. Remainiac bellends vs. the Brexshitheads is the clash of the tits that can't end soon enough.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers trying to further wrench Labour from the working class are not acting in the interests of that class.


Neither is brexit.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 31, 2020)

This shit isn't going to end.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Dec 31, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> This shit isn't going to end.



Indeed, its the perfect topic for people who have no political principles to pretend that they do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> This would destroy Labour.


The Labour that just whipped a vote for this deal? It's already been destroyed. Owned by an issue it had no say over. Passive acceptance of the rationale behind the deal over the coming years will just see it sink even lower.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Remainers trying to further wrench Labour from the working class are not acting in the interests of that class.


Socialist labour's dead and gone
It's with clem attlee in the grave


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Labour that just whipped a vote for this deal? It's already been destroyed. Owned by an issue it had no say over. Passive acceptance of the rationale behind the deal over the coming years will just see it sink even lower.



So campaigning to join the EEA and campaigning for free movement would revive the Labour Party or at least avert it sinking lower?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Dec 31, 2020)

Labour needs to forget about the b word. Attack the tories  over the fallout.


----------



## Winot (Dec 31, 2020)

sleaterkinney said:


> Labour needs to forget about the b word. Attack the tories  over the fallout.



It appears this is Starmer's plan and it's a good one.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The Centre Party are a right wing nationalist and protectionist party who want to leave Schengen for fear of who will come in to Norway
From 2012: "Schengen Agreement makes it easier for criminals to enter the country....Klinge said the problem was particularly serious because Bulgaria and Romania could enter the Schengen area in the autumn."
Theres a wave of anti-migrant fear in Norway and Sweden in recent years

So yeah, some more-Scandi-polite version of UKIP like the UKs deal - no surprise there. 
Is points based immigration and flag-draped protectionism really a future that appeals to you?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If its equivalence that seals the deal we then have to have loads of French pop stars playing over here. I cant think of any.


I've always thought it interesting that French radio channels still have a minimum quota for 'French language works' to counter  the "Anglo-Saxon cultural invasion'


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The Centre Party are a right wing nationalist and protectionist party who want to leave Schengen for fear of who will come in to Norway
> From 2012: "Schengen Agreement makes it easier for criminals to enter the country....Klinge said the problem was particularly serious because Bulgaria and Romania could enter the Schengen area in the autumn."
> Theres a wave of anti-migrant fear in Norway and Sweden in recent years
> 
> ...


I'm well aware of the situation with racism and anti migrant fear in Europe.I'm not defending The Centre Party, (and no they dont appeal to me thanks).  just pointing out along with the Socialist Left Party it feels that the UKs agreement is better than the EEA.  It may well be protectionist , which in itself isn't either right wing or nationalist but I actually thought that the Centre Party had been part of the red-green coalition along with Labour and the SLP. ?


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Be interesting to find out a bit more about this, seems very petty and hopefully a reciprocal  agreement will be sought at some point
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Honestly I cannot blame either side for not making music touring a priority, been as it's definitely not happening for half a year/a full year due to covid. I am fairly sure that by the time it starts there won't be any obstacles that aren't easy to adapt to..... except for the fact that most venues are going to have shut down and noone will have any money, that is the really big iceberg for touring music imo, not brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Labour that just whipped a vote for this deal? It's already been destroyed. Owned by an issue it had no say over. Passive acceptance of the rationale behind the deal over the coming years will just see it sink even lower.


It had a say. It fucked up by choosing remain. It was dragged to this position by people who are not working in the interests of working class people. 
Let the remain hardliners flock around the corpse of Jo Swinson.


----------



## prunus (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> It had a say. It fucked up by choosing remain. It was dragged to this position by people who are not working in the interests of working class people.
> Let the remain hardliners flock around the corpse of Jo Swinson.



Such is your opinion - mine (also lifelong Labour supporter, left wing, tax and spend, redistributionist) is that Labour fucked up on behalf of the working class by not campaigning hard and honestly for a remain vote before the referendum. Brexit is bad for everyone, and as usual when things are bad for everyone, they’re worse for the worst off.  Labour should have been tooth and nail against it. The current no-win equivocation position is really just a continuation of Labour’s position in 2016.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I'm well aware of the situation with racism and anti migrant fear in Europe.I'm not defending The Centre Party, (and no they dont appeal to me thanks).  just pointing out along with the Socialist Left Party it feels that the UKs agreement is better than the EEA.  It may well be protectionist , which in itself isn't either right wing or nationalist but I actually thought that the Centre Party had been part of the red-green coalition along with Labour and the SLP. ?


Strange to quote them if they don't appeal to you. Who gives a fuck what they think?


----------



## Spandex (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> If its equivalence that seals the deal we then have to have loads of French pop stars playing over here. I cant think of any.


There's been absolutely loads of great French music from the last decade. Christine & the Queens and Charlotte Gainsbourg have made the biggest impact in the UK, but beyond them there's a world of acts from Juniore's psych to L'Imperatrice's disco. It'd be a bonus of Brexit if they were encouraged to play here more. Maybe Mylene Farmer  could finally put a UK date on a tour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Your dreaming.


There is no future in England's dreaming


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

Spandex said:


> There's been absolutely loads of great French music from the last decade. Christine & the Queens and Charlotte Gainsbourg have made the biggest impact in the UK, but beyond them there's a world of acts from Juniore's psych to L'Imperatrice's disco. It'd be a bonus of Brexit if they were encouraged to play here more. Maybe Mylene Farmer  could finally put a UK date on a tour.


I put on a few french bands. The obstacle was that people just weren't interested in coming, even though they were great. You can't force people to come to gigs.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Strange to quote them if they don't appeal to you. Who gives a fuck what they think?


Quoting the largest party in an EEA state, an organisation that you want labour to campaign for,  from a paper that is anti Brexit actually. And yes I see your point about  Norwegians poking the noses into British politics.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> I put on a few french bands. The obstacle was that people just weren't interested in coming, even though they were great. You can't force people to come to gigs.


Any idea why people didn't come ?


----------



## Spandex (Dec 31, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> I put on a few french bands. The obstacle was that people just weren't interested in coming, even though they were great. You can't force people to come to gigs.


That's slightly different to there not being any worth watching.

I was supposed to watch Juniore in late March, but of course it got cancelled. I agree with you that Covid is currently a bigger issue for touring than Brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Any idea why people didn't come ?


People prefer bands that sing in English, even the French...


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Same people prefer bands that sing in English with fake US accents.


----------



## A380 (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Any idea why people didn't come ?


French bands.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> Any idea why people didn't come ?


I didn't ask everyone. But there is a prejudice against french rock and roll in this country, probably because of jonny halliday.

They all sang in english btw, so not understanding lyrics wasn't it.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

A380 said:


> French bands.


This kind of thing.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

I recommend listening to this labels output: Releases | Born Bad Records


----------



## Spandex (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> People prefer bands that sing in English, even the French...


That's not true. Mylene Farmer's 2009 tour played to over half a million people in stadiums across Europe. It's mainly the British that have an aversion to French language music.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

Exports dearer; imports cheaper...


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> People prefer bands that sing in English, even the French...


You don't get much like this in English


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Spandex said:


> That's not true. Mylene Farmer's 2009 tour played to over half a million people in stadiums across Europe. It's mainly the British that have an aversion to French language music.


Ok I accept the first part completely.  Mylene Farmer I have never heard of. Do French bands do well in the US? German bands?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> You don't get much like this in English



Its stuff you would put on in a venue I was thinking of. Unless tastes change it would be hard to achieve equivalence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Its stuff you would put on in a venue I was thinking of. Unless tastes change it would be hard to achieve equivalence.


What about these famous Belgians who manage to sing in english?


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

In the 1960's it was the two national musicians unions of the UK and US that stopped each others nationals playing in each others country. 

An agreement was brokered based on equivalence. The US got tours of the Beatles and that and we got a stream of fantastic jazz musicians playing London clubs. 

I'm sure an agreement similar to the above will be agreed and in place before covid is vanquished and live music indoors can happen again.


----------



## Spandex (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do French bands do well in the US?


No, they're as bad as us for dismissing non-anglophone music.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Pickman's model said:


> What about these famous Belgians who manage to sing in english?



IMO that band are poor and would not draw a crowd. I like the egg in the video.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Spandex said:


> No, they're as bad as us for dismissing non-anglophone music.


Do French bands do well anywhere other than France?


----------



## Spandex (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Do French bands do well anywhere other than France?


In most of Europe. I've got a friend from Montenegro who was amazed to find Mylene Farmer in my record collection, as I was the first British person she'd met who'd heard of her.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> IMO that band are poor and would not draw a crowd. I like the egg in the video.


Loads of shit music pulls big audiences, and loads of amazing music gets tiny audiences. I'd hate for audience size/money making potential to be the only thing that determines whether musicians are worthy of travelling.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I'm well aware of the situation with racism and anti migrant fear in Europe.I'm not defending The Centre Party, (and no they dont appeal to me thanks).  just pointing out along with the Socialist Left Party it feels that the UKs agreement is better than the EEA.  It may well be protectionist , which in itself isn't either right wing or nationalist but I actually thought that the Centre Party had been part of the red-green coalition along with Labour and the SLP. ?


But you do support closed migration and protectionism right? Thats got be core to Lexit
If you do Id like to talk this through more, and see if i can be won over to the case (going to be pretty much away from a computer the next three days though)
I tried a thread here but it never took off








						Protectionism
					

Considering recent world political events Im curious if anyone has any thoughts about economic protectionism...as an economic policy and inevitably with its relation to nationalism.  Seems to me its a policy that divides both the left and the right:  On the one hand  some parts of 'the right'...




					www.urban75.net
				



I think protectionism is the elephant in the room of global politics for years now - seems to never get talked about

My instinct and scant knowledge of 20th century history makes me worry of a return to a closed border protectionist Europe composed of competing states, especially so at a time when the right is ever dominant and capitalism moves into a worrying new survivalist phase.
im not won over by the case to follow that path, and worry that in so doing deeper values get chucked on the bonfire, whatever other strategic left gains might be made.
maybe we can come back to it in the new year. if youve got anything to post on that protectionism thread id be keen to read it


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

rutabowa said:


> Loads of shit music pulls big audiences, and loads of amazing music gets tiny audiences. I'd hate for audience size to be the only thing that determines whether musicians are worthy of travelling.


Well if you only have a handful of punters who pays the musicians and for the elec bill?
It would be going back to pay to play and all that shite.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

There's quite a few French bands I like actually


----------



## bimble (Dec 31, 2020)

I’ve got Slovakian (eu) citizenship, just realising I should definitely put that on my future online dating profile if I do that next year, probably better currency than pretending to read deep books or be able to cook.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 31, 2020)

French hip hop is on the whole outstanding.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

TopCat said:


> Well if you only have a handful of punters who pays the musicians and for the elec bill?
> It would be going back to pay to play and all that shite.


Usually one better paid gig (maybe at a festival or something), which might get arts council funding or something, funds a run of smaller show that might only pay for petrol money. Anyway this is pretty niche.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> But you do support closed migration and protectionism right? Thats got be core to Lexit
> If you do Id like to talk this through more, and see if i can be won over to the case (going to be pretty much away from a computer the next three days though)
> I tried a thread here but it never took off
> 
> ...


Can't remember ever seeing that thread. Yes I do support immigration controls and I'm in favour of some forms of protectionism. However whilst I might come back to that thread it wouldn't be with the idea of winning you over thanks Ska I think you are set in your ways.


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> There's quite a few French bands I like actually


I can now think of a few faves too.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 31, 2020)

The39thStep said:


> I think you are set in your ways.


not at all, ive never been tribalist or sectarian in politics
i am though scared of nationalism/xenephobia/racism and thats from personal experience as much as any abstract historical lessons
eta: im also respectful of other peoples knowledge - i know my limitations - it partly why i still post here


----------



## NoXion (Dec 31, 2020)

Not sure why protectionism is inherently a bad thing. Why should we outsource everything like the neolibs love to do?


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm very fond of Deux


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Not sure why protectionism is inherently a bad thing. Why should we outsource everything like the neolibs love to do?


We should outsource our neolibs to the British Antarctic Territory


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 31, 2020)

bimble said:


> I’ve got Slovakian (eu) citizenship, just realising I should definitely put that on my future online dating profile if I do that next year, probably better currency than pretending to read deep books or be able to cook.



Seems you and your beau would need to live in Slovakia for five years after your big day for him to get the passport.

_gets up off his creaking knee_


----------



## cloudyday (Dec 31, 2020)

Thee Milkshakes to be the post brexit uk music ambassadors


----------



## teqniq (Dec 31, 2020)




----------



## alex_ (Dec 31, 2020)

Roadkill said:


> I don't think we're disagreeing are we?  You're absolutely right the deal is only the start of a long process, and I suppose I'm arguing we ought to be thinking more about that than bemoaning the fact it's happening.  In that sense remainers _do_ just have to deal with it. As you imply, though, the question is how stable the deal turns out to be in its fundamentals. That brings us back to the question of whether the current truce in the Tory party lasts or not....



The Swiss are in continual negotiations with the eu, the only way we stop negotiating with the EU is by rejoining. if that’s not an option - we will continually be in negotiation for some aspect of something or other.

johnsons latest con is that this process has finished, the deal just closed sets up the system the perpetual negotiation takes place in.

watch this space for brexiteers telling us they’ve not read this agreement


----------



## magneze (Dec 31, 2020)

Even within the EU you have to negotiate too. Different things perhaps but you still have to do it.


----------



## rutabowa (Dec 31, 2020)

I suspect both brexiteers and remainers have common ground in not having read this agreement.


----------



## Serge Forward (Dec 31, 2020)

ska invita said:


> The Centre Party are a right wing nationalist and protectionist party who want to leave Schengen for fear of who will come in to Norway
> From 2012: "Schengen Agreement makes it easier for criminals to enter the country....Klinge said the problem was particularly serious because Bulgaria and Romania could enter the Schengen area in the autumn."
> Theres a wave of anti-migrant fear in Norway and Sweden in recent years
> 
> ...


That's not entirely accurate, they're not exactly far right and were part of the red-green coalition, though they are rightish. I'd say they were a less swivel-eyed version of UKIP with a bit of 'progressive' bollocks thrown in. Either way, they're still a shower of cunts.


----------



## Raheem (Dec 31, 2020)

NoXion said:


> Not sure why protectionism is inherently a bad thing.


Feels like there's something grim about embracing it only in respect of people and fish, though.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

“Just think for a moment what a prospect that is.  A single market without barriers giving you direct and unhindered access to the purchasing power of over 300 million of the world’s wealthiest and most prosperous people


----------



## ska invita (Dec 31, 2020)

Serge Forward said:


> That's not entirely accurate, they're not exactly far right and were part of the red-green coalition, though they are rightish. I'd say they were a less swivel-eyed version of UKIP with a bit of 'progressive' bollocks thrown in. Either way, they're still a shower of cunts.


Yes agree... I didn't say far right btw, just right wing... "centrists"
Coalition formations are a bit more of a mixed bag under proportional representation


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

No doubt some folk will be losing off some fireworks tonight at 11:00pm?


----------



## magneze (Dec 31, 2020)

The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
					

Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott




					www.theguardian.com
				




Pretty optimistic take here.

Personally I feel that threads like this need to die quickly in 2021 (sorry, brogdale). If everything continues to be seen through the prism of Brexit then I suspect discussions will never really move on.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

magneze said:


> The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
> ...


No worries; kind of hope you're right, but fear you're not, tbh.
This has legs.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

magneze said:


> The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
> ...


If you’ve got posters advocating /campaigning for rejoin or join the EEA then regrettably the discussion won’t move on .


----------



## SpackleFrog (Dec 31, 2020)

philosophical said:


> I think what you're describing is the 'turn a blind eye' option.
> I suppose the EU can undercut the trade in Mongolian Yaks by sending them undetected across the Irish border into the UK.
> I am not 100% sure that the brexit mantra of controlling the UK borders is achieved by not controlling the UK borders.



I'm not 100٪ sure all the mantras are as important as some people think they are. 

Sure, call it a 'turn a blind eye' option if you like but in all kinds of different ways, lots of things will be determined by who decides to implement what operational changes first and in what areas. Enforcing any changes to the rules will be a complex process, not least because for both sides it will be a political decision, and there is always the possibility that individual firms and regulatory bodies could pursue retaliatory legal challenges to operational changes I would imagine.


----------



## The39thStep (Dec 31, 2020)

> Leaving the EU means UK governments no longer have anywhere to hide. They have economic levers they can pull – procurement, tax, ownership, regulation, investment in infrastructure, subsidies for new industries, trade policy – and they will come under pressure to use them.'


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 31, 2020)

Brexit is just not going to end, this isn't even a finalised deal with so much still uncertain.

Boris seems to have it in his head this is going to be something the Tories can work on and use for years in the neverending culture war that he seems keen to foster.


This blog says it well.





__





						Brexit & Beyond
					

"Best guy to follow on Brexit for intelligent analysis" Annette Dittert, ARD German TV. "By far one of the best analysts of Brexit" Sarah Carey,  The Times. "Consistently outstanding analysis of Brexit" Jonathan Dimbleby. "The best writer on Brexit" Chris Lockwood, Europe Editor, The Economist...




					chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com
				






> *Never-ending Brexit*
> 
> So what is now in prospect is an entirely new phase of Brexit. Whilst I don’t think it is helpful to dissect the deal in terms of EU or UK wins and losses, one clear victory for the EU was to create a single, over-arching agreement rather than, as the UK government had wanted, a series of separate agreements. With that has come an immensely complex governance architecture, consisting of a Partnership Council along with a myriad of over thirty sub-groups. There are also a whole series of mechanisms for reviews, including a five-yearly review of the whole deal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Dec 31, 2020)

Government finally released some case studies to. Just 4 hours to get used to them.


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

Artaxerxes said:


> Government finally released some case studies to. Just 4 hours to get used to them.



It's when you see these things written down, isn't it?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Dec 31, 2020)

Do you think drug dealers will be having a field day tomorrow at out port entry points or will customs be wise it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 31, 2020)

brogdale said:


> No doubt some folk will be losing off some fireworks tonight at 11:00pm?


Rule takers to the bitter end


----------



## brogdale (Dec 31, 2020)

So....here we go.

Do you have the correct papers?


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Dec 31, 2020)

I can hear fireworks, but if they're Brexiteers I suppose it's possible they forgot to put their clocks back in October.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 31, 2020)

What's all this about taking back control? We left half an hour ago - at 12:00 _Brussels _time


----------



## TopCat (Dec 31, 2020)

Brexit: in crisis, without fanfare, UK finally ends the EU era
					

Boris Johnson largely ignores Brexit in new year message to focus on toll of Covid and ‘the grimness of 2020’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Gerry1time (Jan 1, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Do you think drug dealers will be having a field day tomorrow at out port entry points or will customs be wise it?



According to Howards Marks' autobography at least, isn't customs being wise to it been the way drugs have often come into this country previously.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

Things so hotly debated now coming to pass...



> *A new trade border between Northern Ireland and the rest of the UK began operating at 23:00 GMT on Thursday.*
> The 'Irish Sea border' is a consequence of Brexit.
> It means that most commercial goods entering Northern Ireland from Great Britain now require a customs declaration.
> However, the UK government announced a three-month 'grace period' for parcels, meaning those sent by online retailers will be exempt until at least April.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2021)

Zero VAT on female sanitary products from today.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Things so hotly debated now coming to pass...
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 246438



A definite step closer to a United Ireland


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A definite step closer to a United Ireland


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

Emblematic of something?


----------



## dessiato (Jan 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Zero VAT on female sanitary products from today.


Bet the price doesn't come down though. Extra profits to be made.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2021)

dessiato said:


> Bet the price doesn't come down though. Extra profits to be made.




Tesco lowered the price by the rate, 5% 3 years ago.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 1, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong - but does this put England (not necessarily UK) on the fast track to being no more than a support system for the City of London? A financial centre that is increasingly dependent on funny money from all manner of international oligarchs, mafiosi etc.?

And could Brexit as a whole be seen as the last battle between British industrial and financial capital, fought on the terrain of the Conservative party?


----------



## marty21 (Jan 1, 2021)

When I can be arsed I'll get an Irish passport , doesn't seem much point at the moment when I can't go anywhere   . Day one of the new world doesn't feel any different than yesterday .


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

marty21 said:


> Day one of the new world doesn't feel any different than yesterday .


 
What heresy is this in Brextain?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 1, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong - but does this put England (not necessarily UK) on the fast track to being no more than a support system for the City of London? A financial centre that is increasingly dependent on funny money from all manner of international oligarchs, mafiosi etc.?
> 
> And could Brexit as a whole be seen as the last battle between British industrial and financial capital, fought on the terrain of the Conservative party?



We've been there since the 80s


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

Faisal Islam thread on the UK government's border model guidelines published yesterday evening:



If it's TL/DR one highlight =



> so its in total 26 “key steps” required to transit British fish into EU via France from 11pm, in Govt’s new trade border case studies... including “get someone to deal with customs for you”


----------



## alex_ (Jan 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> What's all this about taking back control? We left half an hour ago - at 12:00 _Brussels _time



The uk didn’t even win the negotiation for the time to leave.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

lol


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jan 1, 2021)

We used to have a dual carriageway all along Anglesey, now we have a contraflow and 10 mile long car park. Happy Brexit Day!


----------



## hash tag (Jan 1, 2021)

Way forward is to apply for French passport, apparently.  It's not a question of becoming French, I am French. Well fuck the Johnsons.








						Stanley Johnson confirms application for French passport on eve of Brexit
					

Prime minister’s father campaigned to remain in the EU in 2016 while his son led the leave movement




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

The mad old king of the swivel-eyed folk is getting in early before the SHTF!


----------



## gosub (Jan 1, 2021)

Britain strikes last-minute deal to keep Gibraltar border open (telegraph.co.uk)


----------



## tommers (Jan 1, 2021)




----------



## A380 (Jan 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
> ...




c Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson 2021


----------



## ska invita (Jan 1, 2021)

Project Reality 




Further insight


----------



## ska invita (Jan 1, 2021)

magneze said:


> The left must stop mourning Brexit – and start seeing its huge potential | Larry Elliott
> 
> 
> Those who predict economic Armageddon ignore the reality. The status quo wasn’t working, says the Guardian’s economics editor, Larry Elliott
> ...


Very short on practical positives that piece. I'm all up for being optimistic, but it would be nice to channel that more accurately.
Key passage is about the danger of permanent Tory Rule... Something the Guardian does it's level best to maintain.

As an aside I have read Larry a bit since the financial crisis... He seems to regularly get everything as wrong as most economists


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> No worries; kind of hope you're right, but fear you're not, tbh.
> This has legs.


Oh my...that was quick.


----------



## prunus (Jan 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Project Reality
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fucking... just cunts.   What price lexit now?  Surely any illusions that brexit was ever anything other than the putting of “the pursuit of profit” and “individual prosperity” ahead of “the common good” and the “dignity of work and workers” must be fading to invisibility by now.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 1, 2021)

prunus said:


> Fucking... just cunts.   What price lexit now?  Surely any illusions that brexit was ever anything other than the putting of “the pursuit of profit” and “individual prosperity” ahead of “the common good” and the “dignity of work and workers” must be fading to invisibility by now.


 When did the UK last have a government that talked about  'common good” and the “dignity of work and workers” ?


----------



## prunus (Jan 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> When did the UK last have a government that talked about  'common good” and the “dignity of work and workers” ?



Yes we need change. It’s just that far too many people seem to have fallen for the non-sequitur that this [brexit] is change therefore we need it.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 1, 2021)

prunus said:


> Fucking... just cunts.   What price lexit now?  Surely any illusions that brexit was ever anything other than the putting of “the pursuit of profit” and “individual prosperity” ahead of “the common good” and the “dignity of work and workers” must be fading to invisibility by now.



What price remain? What price peoples vote? What price FBPE? 

E2A: These things are what cost the possibility of 'dignity of work and workers'.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Zero VAT on female sanitary products from today.



Excellent news to be fair, is that related to Brexit in some way I haven't twigged or just a significant change in post Brexit UK?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Excellent news to be fair, is that related to Brexit in some way I haven't twigged or just a significant change in post Brexit UK?




Yeah, the EU sets minimum VAT rates on products that it's members must apply.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, the EU sets minimum VAT rates on products that it's members must apply.



I had no idea! Amazing that that didn't come up much in the debate about the last four years really, especially when there was a big campaign around that at one point. Did I miss something?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2021)

prunus said:


> Yes we need change. It’s just that far too many people seem to have fallen for the non-sequitur that this [brexit] is change therefore we need it.


Tbh before the year is out we'll all be after change, pound coins, 50p's, 20p's hell even 2p's and 1p's won't be despised


----------



## mauvais (Jan 1, 2021)

Scotland gives the (5%) proceeds to women's charities and Ireland charges 0% for reasons. The Tories were supposed to be lobbying the EU to exempt it but obviously stopped giving a fuck about that some time ago. Now it's offered up as a great success of Brexit.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 1, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Excellent news to be fair, is that related to Brexit in some way I haven't twigged or just a significant change in post Brexit UK?





Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, the EU sets minimum VAT rates on products that it's members must apply.



i thought it was that member states could keep things VAT exempt, but once something had been brought in to VAT then it couldn't be exempted again, although different rates of VAT (like 5% in this case rather than the usual whack) could be applied - not sure if there is / was a minimum amount, otherwise surely uk government could have reduced it to something like 0.1 %


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 1, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i thought it was that member states could keep things VAT exempt, but once something had been brought in to VAT then it couldn't be exempted again, although different rates of VAT (like 5% in this case rather than the usual whack) could be applied - not sure if there is / was a minimum amount, otherwise surely uk government could have reduced it to something like 0.1 %



The minimum is 5٪ but it wouldn't surprise me if new member states could retain exemptions. Its the same principle as with nationalised industry.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 1, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i thought it was that member states could keep things VAT exempt, but once something had been brought in to VAT then it couldn't be exempted again, although different rates of VAT (like 5% in this case rather than the usual whack) could be applied - not sure if there is / was a minimum amount, otherwise surely uk government could have reduced it to something like 0.1 %


I think this is why Ireland's is 0% - predates the EU standardisation and hasn't been altered since. The UK reduced it from 20% to 5% in 2000.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 1, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> The minimum is 5٪ but it wouldn't surprise me if new member states could retain exemptions. Its the same principle as with nationalised industry.


Apparently this is an EU thing, with Ireland being the exception because they imposed 0% before the supra-state edict.


> Research from MyVoucherCodes has analysed the sanitary products tax in Europe, showing that the five countries with the highest Tampon Tax are:
> 
> *Hungary - 27%, Norway - 25%, Sweden - 25%, Denmark - 25%, Croatia - 25%.*
> 
> ...





> The Irish rate was implemented before EU legislation imposed reduced VAT rates on certain goods and services. This legislation has prevented other EU members, like the UK, from reducing their VAT rate on sanitary products to 0%.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 1, 2021)

teqniq said:


>




Brexit, like taxes, is for little people.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

Im trying to get my head around the deal about Gibraltar. Was watching Spanish news last night and it came up ( as my partner is Spanish we did Spanish New Year with the grapes at 11pm UK time).

So Gibralter is going to be part of the Schengen zone in the future. The last minute deal still needs finalising. A lot of Spanish workers cross over to Gibraltar every day. The Gibraltar local government wanted to be in Schengen area. Sticking pont was having Spanish customs at the airport ( the new border under this agreement). Compromise for now is Frontex will be at airport. Claims on sovereignity on both sides are put aside for this deal. Gibraltar bit touchy subject for Spain.

Looking up Schengen and it comprises EU and non EU countries. Means free movement- no passport checks or visas needed from what I can gather. Im no expert so if others know more then post up.

Makes me wonder why UK could not have joined the Schengen zone once it left EU.

I still don't really understand how different part of what comes under UK sovereignity can have different deals.









						Spain, UK reach ‘preliminary agreement’ that will see an end to the border with Gibraltar
					

The country’s foreign ministers announced the deal, which will see the British Overseas Territory join the Schengen area, with just hours to go before the United Kingdom definitively leaves the EU




					english.elpais.com
				












						Spain and UK reach draft deal on post-Brexit status of Gibraltar
					

British overseas territory had been left out of deal announced on Christmas Eve




					www.theguardian.com
				




So looks like gradually Gibraltar will have closer relationship with Spain and EU than it does with this country. Over 90% of Gibraltar people voted Remain.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Makes me wonder why UK could not have joined the Schengen zone once it left EU.


The folks currently trying to sneak across the Channel in rubber boats. If we were in the Schengen Zone then they could just buy a bus ticket, hell the Mayor of Calais would probably be out on the streets giving them out for free.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The folks currently trying to sneak across the Channel in rubber boats. If we were in the Schengen Zone then they could just buy a bus ticket, hell the Mayor of Calais would probably be out on the streets giving them out for free.



Sorry I don't know what you are going on about..


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Sorry I don't know what you are going on about..


If we're in the Schengen Zone then effectively once you've entered one country, you've entered them all, no passport checks as you move from one country to the other. If we were in Schengen then there would be no passport control between Dover and Calais. Catching a ferry would be no different from catching a train from London to Birmingham, you just need a ticket. So once the migrants have got into France then they have effectively got into UK. That was one of the main reasons quoted as to why we stayed out of the Schengen Zone in the first place.
There's no way you are going to sell staying in the Schengen Zone (not all countries in it are EU members, Iceland isn't) to Tory backbenchers who are sensitive to public demands to end both regular and irregular migration into this country.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> If we're in the Schengen Zone then effectively once you've entered one country, you've entered them all, no passport checks as you move from one country to the other. If we were in Schengen then there would be no passport control between Dover and Calais. Catching a ferry would be no different from catching a train from London to Birmingham, you just need a ticket. So once the migrants have got into France then they have effectively got into UK. That was one of the main reasons quoted as to why we stayed out of the Schengen Zone in the first place.
> There's no way you are going to sell staying in the Schengen Zone (not all countries in it are EU members, Iceland isn't) to Tory backbenchers who are sensitive to public demands to end both regular and irregular migration into this country.



Tory government has just done a deal wih Spain over Schengen in case of Gibraltar.

So shows this is possible whilst staying out of EU. 

Depends what public opionion you are talking about. Large Remain vote in my area ( Lambeth Inner London) was driven by seeing the Referendum as a vote on  immigration


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Tory government has just done a deal wih Spain over Schengen in case of Gibraltar.
> 
> So shows this is possible whilst staying out of EU.
> 
> Depends what public opionion you are talking about. Large Remain vote in my area ( Lambeth Inner London) was driven by seeing the Referendum as a vote on  immigration


Of course its possible Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen Zone and they're not part of the EU. England, Scotland and Wales are not part of the Schengen Zone because we have a Govt which wants to regulate the flow of people into this country. And  a very large part of the general population supports that view. Lambeth is not even remotely typical of how the country voted.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Of course its possible Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen Zone and they're not part of the EU. England, Scotland and Wales are not part of the Schengen Zone because we have a Govt which wants to regulate the flow of people into this country. And  a very large part of the general population supports that view. Lambeth is not even remotely typical of how the country voted.



Nice.

Good to know my everyday life living in multicultural Lambeth is not typical of the British population.

So referendum ( as a lot of my Black British in Lambeth and inner London friends saw) was about immigration. 

But then they aren't "typical" so thats all right then.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> If we're in the Schengen Zone then effectively once you've entered one country, you've entered them all, no passport checks as you move from one country to the other. If we were in Schengen then there would be no passport control between Dover and Calais. Catching a ferry would be no different from catching a train from London to Birmingham, you just need a ticket. So once the migrants have got into France then they have effectively got into UK. That was one of the main reasons quoted as to why we stayed out of the Schengen Zone in the first place.
> There's no way you are going to sell staying in the Schengen Zone (not all countries in it are EU members, Iceland isn't) to Tory backbenchers who are sensitive to public demands to end both regular and irregular migration into this country.


Thank God we're finally out of Fortress Europe


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Of course its possible Iceland and Norway are part of the Schengen Zone and they're not part of the EU. England, Scotland and Wales are not part of the Schengen Zone because we have a Govt which wants to regulate the flow of people into this country. And  a very large part of the general population supports that view. Lambeth is not even remotely typical of how the country voted.


You're reasoning like Theresa May.  48% of the country voted to stay in the EU and so to stay in the free movement area. Of the 52% who voted to leave, not all of them wanted to impose new immigration controls, which were not mentioned in the referendum question. Last year, about 12 million people voted tory with the tories the only main party committed to ending free movement - that's not 'a very large part of the general population' of a country with around 50 million adults living in it.

(To dispose of the technicality, the UK was never in the Schengen Zone, and Ireland still isn't in it, but that's not really important as all the important bits of free movement were there.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Thank God we're finally out of Fortress Europe


Yeh now we're plucky little britain outside festung europa aiming to drown migrants in the channel


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## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Nice.
> 
> Good to know my everyday life living in multicultural Lambeth is not typical of the British population.
> 
> ...


It isn't typical of the bulk of the country, the vast majority of the population outside the major metropolitan areas is predominately white. These are the areas that almost entirely voted Leave (greatly outnumbering those that voted Remain) 
People voted Leave for all sorts of reasons but pretending there wasn't a massive anti-immigration vote is deluding yourself. Your friends are sadly right I am afraid, Much of the referendum vote was about immigration. 
Though ironically of course the immigrants being specifically objected to are themselves white.
It isn't 'right' I am not defending the situation but it is what it is.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> It isn't typical of the bulk of the country, the vast majority of the population outside the major metropolitan areas is predominately white. These are the areas that almost entirely voted Leave (greatly outnumbering those that voted Remain)
> People voted Leave for all sorts of reasons but pretending there wasn't a massive anti-immigration vote is deluding yourself. Your friends are sadly right I am afraid, Much of the referendum vote was about immigration.
> Though ironically of course the immigrants being specifically objected to are themselves white.
> It isn't 'right' I am not defending the situation but it is what it is.


Land doesn't vote. The majority of people in the UK live in cities or towns, a very large number of them in the major metropolitan areas. But you're repeating Theresa May's logical failure yet again here. A majority voted leave and a majority of those that voted leave want immigration controls. That is probably true. But that majority of a majority is a minority. The other 48% don't just disappear from the equation when you're asking a separate question.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> It isn't typical of the bulk of the country, the vast majority of the population outside the major metropolitan areas is predominately white. These are the areas that almost entirely voted Leave (greatly outnumbering those that voted Remain)
> People voted Leave for all sorts of reasons but pretending there wasn't a massive anti-immigration vote is deluding yourself. Your friends are sadly right I am afraid, Much of the referendum vote was about immigration.
> Though ironically of course the immigrants being specifically objected to are themselves white.
> It isn't 'right' I am not defending the situation but it is what it is.



So the Brexit referendum was largely about immgration is what you are saying?

Im not deluding myself. My last post said that a lot of my Black British friends ( whose parents came here from Carribbean) voted Remain. Whatever reservations they had about EU they saw the whole debate leading up to referendum as being about what view one had of immigration.

One said to me in lead up to referendum UKIP are NF in blazers. Anyone who votes UKIP is racist. Poles are getting the same stick his father got when he came here from Carribbean. So he was voting Remain.

White Londoner I know . like me has immigrant as partner, ended up voting Remain as debate in lead up to referendum was talking about immigration. He was not that keen on EU but felt he had to vote Remain for that reason. He had been not sure but last few weeks to run up to referendum made him vote Remain. His partner btw was non EU.

So Im actually agreeing with a lot of what your saying.

I also think that any reconcilation between Leave areas and Remain ones is not going to happen. Brexit and the divisions it has caused will live on post Brexit.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Thank God we're finally out of Fortress Europe



Now we can get together with Aus, NZ, US and Can, call it Oceania and rebrand ourselves _Airstrip One _


----------



## alex_ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> So the Brexit referendum was largely about immgration is what you are saying?
> 
> Im not deluding myself. My last post said that a lot of my Black British friends ( whose parents came here from Carribbean) voted Remain. Whatever reservations they had about EU they saw the whole debate leading up to referendum as being about what view one had of immigration.
> 
> ...



didn’t you spend years telling us that brexiteers weren’t racist ?


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Poles are getting the same stick his father got when he came here from Carribbean. So he was voting Remain.


Yep. It was bad before the vote, worse after it. It's a mistake to just look at skin colour when thinking about racial prejudice.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 1, 2021)

alex_ said:


> didn’t you spend years telling us that brexiteers weren’t racist ?



No I didnt.

My position on Brexit was that EU was pretty crap but the Brexit debate and run up to referendum was pushed by the anti immigrant right in this country. UKIP and sections of the Tory party so at referendum I was Remain.

I can understand some of the left arguments for Leave. EU is not democratic/ pushes neo liberal agenda - see Greece/ stops democratically elected governments from pursuing economic poliicies to support there citizens ( see Greece and the PIGS/ limitiations on "state aid". I could go on.

Who is us? Do you mean the Brixton Forum? Is this a version of how Im a hypocrite?

Ive tried not to just reject anti EU arguments. Some of Remain side annoyed me. It was like EU was great. I found all the waving of EU flags embarrassing.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Land doesn't vote. The majority of people in the UK live in cities or towns, a very large number of them in the major metropolitan areas. But you're repeating Theresa May's logical failure yet again here. A majority voted leave and a majority of those that voted leave want immigration controls. That is probably true. But that majority of a majority is a minority. The other 48% don't just disappear from the equation when you're asking a separate question.


Agreed they're a minority but they are a large minority and a very large percentage of them vote for a party  that is willing to pander to those opinions. So their opinions thus carry more weight than they rationally should.
Other parties are much less willing to cater to those opinions, At the end of the day most people don't carefully sift through policies and vote for them all, they pick the one that they care about most and vote based on that, even if they thought rationally about it they are losing out in so many other ways.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 1, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> So the Brexit referendum was largely about immgration is what you are saying?
> 
> 
> Im not deluding myself. My last post said that a lot of my Black British friends ( whose parents came here from Carribbean) voted Remain. Whatever reservations they had about EU they saw the whole debate leading up to referendum as being about what view one had of immigration.
> ...



Good Points deserve Good Answers

I don't think it was entirely about immigration no but it was certainly a major issue for Leave voters (not helped by dog whistling from politicians). I also think a lot of the people who objected to East European immigrants weren't objecting to the immigrants per se but were unhappy with what they saw as their own exclusion from the benefits that being in the EU brought and the Poles were a convenient target for no matter how innocent they (the Poles) were as individuals.

To a lot of people not a majority (I hope) but certainly a significant minority the referendum had a strong anti-immigration vibe to it and the more people felt it would effect them personally the more they might be expected to think that.
One of my son's mates hurriedly married his Polish girlfriend just before 1st Non-Brexit Day after years of just living together so they clearly felt it would effect their relationship.

UKIP full of racists surely not? say it ain't so? Your friend and I see eye to eye on that at least.

Sadly I think you are right rapproachment is a long way off especially once the consequences start to filter through and the search begins for someone to blame.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 1, 2021)

The immigration thing was forefront, it was based on the idea that Romanians, Hungarians etc. would be happy to come to the U.K. and work for a quarter of what the U.K. worker needs to live if they can live in squaller and send the lion’s share home. Being at the bottom of the heap and competing with these people and objecting to this equates to racists apparently and is still a source of bewilderment to many. Perhaps if those a few rungs up had offered more crumbs it wouldn’t have come to this.


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## Flavour (Jan 1, 2021)

True as that may be the actual hard-core racists who organize politically around openly racist positions tend to be focused on Muslims in particular, wherever they come from. Romanians feature much less though that tension regarding Eastern European workers undercutting wages has been present since the 2004 accession of Poland and Co. Despite that I don't think its ever been foreground for the likes of football lads, Britain first, Tommy r, the EDL and others


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## Smangus (Jan 1, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> The minimum is 5٪ but it wouldn't surprise me if new member states could retain exemptions. Its the same principle as with nationalised industry.



The minimum VAT rate in the UK is the Zero rate (0%), when VAT  was introduced (early 1970s) sanitary products were not negotiated to be included in this rate, like (for example) food and children's clothing. Up until the 2000 budget sanitary products were charged at the standard rate of VAT (then 17.5%) but then brought into the reduced rate of 5%. 

Why have a zero rate? When VAT was introduced  Europe wanted  us to 2 rates, a higher and a lower rate, we got around this by having a standard rate (8%) and a zero rate.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Apparently this is an EU thing, with Ireland being the exception because they imposed 0% before the supra-state edict.



Fucking hell Hungary age the Scandi lads


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Land doesn't vote. The majority of people in the UK live in cities or towns, a very large number of them in the major metropolitan areas. But you're repeating Theresa May's logical failure yet again here. A majority voted leave and a majority of those that voted leave want immigration controls. That is probably true. But that majority of a majority is a minority. The other 48% don't just disappear from the equation when you're asking a separate question.


I'm not even sure it was even a majority of a majority for whom it was about immigration, it was a significant number but it was a hotch potch of different things.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A definite step closer to a United Ireland


No it doesn’t. A united Ireland will need more than a customs border down the Irish Sea to convince unionism that their in


ska invita said:


> Project Reality
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The cunt has just read a bit of Weber but it’s interesting that he’s demanding that the UK turns to its two official religions Calvinism and Instagram bullshit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 2, 2021)

flypanam said:


> No it doesn’t. A united Ireland will need more than a customs border down the Irish Sea to convince unionism that their in



Yeah, it needs the south to actually want the north back, but it’s clear that currently Westminster is happy to see it go.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, it needs the south to actually want the north back, but it’s clear that currently Westminster is happy to see it go.


I should have finished what I meant to write (posting in the middle of the night is fraught) The custom border doesn't change anything much for the north, in fact being politically in the UK and economically part of an all Ireland economy, The EU and the UK is win win for unionists. Economically secure with a vast array of funding available via Dublin/EU and London. The middle class unionists will happily have both passports, and already ignore the border. I don't see how any of these arrangements will win WC loyalists away from their attachment to the Queen and see their interests lie with the South. As for Westminster, WC loyalist distrust and fear it as much as anyone else, they've always looked over the their shoulder fearing an English sell out.

I agree Westminster wants rid. The south officially wants a united Ireland and the population of the south wants it too. The sticking point is that there would have to be significant change in both parts and Scotland for it to happen.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 2, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Scotland gives the (5%) proceeds to women's charities and Ireland charges 0% for reasons. The Tories were supposed to be lobbying the EU to exempt it but obviously stopped giving a fuck about that some time ago. Now it's offered up as a great success of Brexit.


They rejected an amendment to some bill or other that would have reduced it to zero a few months ago, didn’t they?


----------



## philosophical (Jan 2, 2021)

I imagine that very soon if your missing cat returns home after several days it will be heralded as a success of brexit.


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## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They rejected an amendment to some bill or other that would have reduced it to zero a few months ago, didn’t they?


There was this (defeated) amendment back in 2016.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They rejected an amendment to some bill or other that would have reduced it to zero a few months ago, didn’t they?


Yes but I think this is irrelevant noise - was prohibited whilst in the EU.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

Apparently the EU is bringing in similar changes itself.


----------



## grit (Jan 2, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Economically secure with a vast array of funding available via Dublin/EU and London.



You sure on this, I didn't think it aligned the north with Dublin in such a manner?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> it’s clear that currently Westminster is happy to see it go.


It was a price of Brexit...I expect the Tories'll have some kind of financial investment for NI, messaged with great fanfare as a way of placating people...20 new meat wagons and a brand new barrack, that kind of thing.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 2, 2021)

grit said:


> You sure on this, I didn't think it aligned the north with Dublin in such a manner?


Not immediately but In time Dublin will be pushed by the northern executive to make a case for it. The all Ireland economy gives Dublin more clout in the north, gives the north a voice in Europe.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Apparently the EU is bringing in similar changes itself.



I really hope this isn't the case.. It looks like it is though. .   in my work we import some items from Germany that you can't get in the UK. They already stopped supplying us last October, awaiting new rules.


----------



## grit (Jan 2, 2021)

flypanam said:


> Not immediately but In time Dublin will be pushed by the northern executive to make a case for it. The all Ireland economy gives Dublin more clout in the north, gives the north a voice in Europe.



Ah, yes if we are fortunate enough to get a united Ireland the resulting larger economy will definitely benefit the north, however I can't see that happening without a united country.


----------



## grit (Jan 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I really hope this isn't the case.. It looks like it is though.



The EU is doing the same thing this summer, however obviously jumping through those hoops gives access to the entire market which is enough to warrant the expense.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 2, 2021)

flypanam said:


> being politically in the UK and economically part of an all Ireland economy, The EU and the UK is win win for unionists.


That's a short term view.. What happens once our buccaneer rulers start diverging from the level playing field? The contradiction becomes more contradictory... It'll be a slow process but the possibility for the border arrangement to become untenable is there, leading to a choice between one or other having to be made


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> That's a short term view.. What happens once our buccaneer rulers start diverging from the level playing field? The contradiction becomes more contradictory... It'll be a slow process but the possibility for the border arrangement to become untenable is there, leading to a choice between one or other having to be made



The Republic is already saying they'll sponsor some Norn things for the EU so the more involved the Republic gets the more normalised a united Ireland will be.

The unionists should be happy for a while because Norn is essentially a grift as it is, lot of money there from the UK for such a small place and there will be Irish money flowing in to.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 2, 2021)

It doesn't matter how many people voted for what. The govt decided that stopping freedom of movement was part of what Brexit should deliver and this has hardly been a secret. Therefore there should be no mystery about why Gibraltar can be in the Schengen zone but GB not.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 2, 2021)

Judging by personal visceral experience, my view is that brexit voters hate foreigners, and the vote has provided a platform for a greater and more visible and less ashamed expressions of that hatred.
Leaving aside that all of the 'reasoned' arguments for brexit as in economics, sovereignty, borders, fish (!), laws or whatever have been shown to be false what seems to be left is a raw hatred of foreigners.
The visceral level for me is to do with my family. My wife is Chinese, my son born in Lewisham hospital is mixed race. Prior to the brexit vote he would probably get racist abuse about twice a month. Immediately following the referendum result he would be abused at least once a day for about three months, then things settled down to racist abuse three or four times a week.
Additionally on his commute to London Bridge he would intervene in racist abuse incidents regularly. Brexit empowered this change in our experience in my view.
One memorable incident (shortly before covid) was meeting a bloke in a social setting, shaking hands, chatting, and then the man became curious about my sons different look. When my son said he was half Chinese the man got hand sanitiser out, made a show of using it, then turned his back ghosting my son.
This is in tolerant multi cultural London. I dread to imagine the experience some other have elsewhere.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> I'm not even sure it was even a majority of a majority for whom it was about immigration, it was a significant number but it was a hotch potch of different things.



Theres a whole strand of issues that caused it, deprevation, poverty, inequality, feeling left behind or ignored by Westminster and GDP, communities hollowed out by capitalism and cheap labour, all of which have been constantly blamed on immigration by UKIP and the media, then the issues were stripped of nuance and blamed entirely on racism by huge chunks of the press when the result was in.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It doesn't matter how many people voted for what. The govt decided that stopping freedom of movement was part of what Brexit should deliver and this has hardly been a secret. Therefore there should be no mystery about why Gibraltar can be in the Schengen zone but GB not.



It was news to me that different areas of UK overesas territory can have different deals re Brexit. For Gibraltar to be in Schengen area and UK not. The future of Gibraltar is now with Spain and EU not UK. This is going to have long term consquences. 

I did assume Brexit meant end of FofM but now looked at it more and seen the deal with Gibraltar nothing to stop future government joining the Schengen area in theory.  Beginning of Brexit issue there was idea of Norway plus model.

Goes to show that effectively May/ right of Tory party and Boris have made sure what its legitimate to see as a "real" Brexit.

Case of Norway has been brought up.They had referendum to join EU and this was not agreed. They are in EEA and EFTA ( founder members) and Schengen area.

Different economy to UK but they have compromise between those who want to be in EU and those who don't but want a looser relationhip with EU- who are major trading partner ( energy)

Maybe I have not been keeping up with all this imo the present deal of this government is not written in stone. Future governments could revisit aspects of Brexit.

Whether the "leave means leave" section of Uk will have that is another matter.

If the Brexit campaign had said they would keep FofM after Brexit I would have been tempted to support that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> It was news to me that different areas of UK overesas territory can have different deals re Brexit. For Gibraltar to be in Schengen area and UK not.
> 
> I did assume Brexit meant end of FofM but now looked at it more and seen the deal with Gibraltar nothing to stop future government joining the Schengen area in theory.  Beginning of Brexit issue there was idea of Norway plus model.
> 
> ...


If the leave campaign had said they'd keep fofm they'd have lost much of the racist vote


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If the leave campaign had said they'd keep fofm they'd have lost much of the racist vote



Yes well the run up to the referendum was pretty appaling. Even Tories  were dropping hints about Turkey joining EU ( hundreds of muslims coming here).


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Yes well the run up to the referendum was pretty appaling. Even Tories  were dropping hints about Turkey joining EU ( hundreds of muslims coming here).


The guardian were saying anyone thinking about voting leave were thick racists


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If the leave campaign had said they'd keep fofm they'd have lost much of the racist vote



Though I was having a chat with Brexit friend few weeks ago( not keen on immigration) on lot of issues we agreed- EU stopping "state aid/  democratic governments should be able to run economy and not be stopped by undemocraticc EU ( greece). So there was common ground.


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If the leave campaign had said they'd keep fofm they'd have lost much of the racist vote



To where?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> Though I was having a chat with Brexit friend ( not keen on immigration) on lot of issues we agreed- EU stopping "state aid/  democratic governments should be able to run economy and not be stopped by undemocraticc EU ( greece). So there were common issues.


The leave campaign appealed to people's basest instincts but the remain campaign didn't make what to me were obvious points, namely that there were flaws in the EU but these might only be addressed by remaining within the union and working for reform. Foremost among the many weaknesses of the remain campaign was a refusal to see the EU as anything but perfect even tho Cameron had tried to get some changes just months earlier. So much might have been different if Cameron had called a referendum prior to his negotiations with the eu, asking 'should the UK remain within an unreformed eu' and then telling Brussels that without changes the UK might leave. By his going cap in hand without a mandate for change he ensured he'd get crumbs and not one of the fine Belgian waffles


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> To where?


Remain obvs


----------



## Lord Camomile (Jan 2, 2021)

One of the more hollow and meaningless victories, but gotta take 'em where they come.


----------



## grit (Jan 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The Republic is already saying they'll sponsor some Norn things for the EU.



The only thing I've seen satisfy this is access to the Erasmus programe which is not a huge undertaking


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Remain obvs


The fortress EUrope types


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> but the remain campaign didn't make what to me were obvious points, namely that there were flaws in the EU but these might only be addressed by remaining within the union and working for reform.



to some extent, that's what a certain mr corbyn said, except most of the media was more interested in the 'dave and boris show' and much of the parliamentary party would have preferred to be sharing a 'project fear' platform with cameron like in the scottish independence referendum...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> The fortress EUrope types


I was I regret being sarcastic, I think any leave campaign which was in favour of retaining fofm would have lost the votes many racists to the ranks of abstainers


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

grit said:


> The only thing I've seen satisfy this is access to the Erasmus programe which is not a huge undertaking











						£450m from Republic for Northern Ireland major projects is welcomed
					

A commitment of €500m (£452m) in the new Irish budget towards cross-border infrastructure such as the A5 roads project has been welcomed by the SDLP and Sinn Fein.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk
				












						Brexit: UK and Ireland ‘could provide NI funding deal’
					

Leo Varadkar says that potential joint investment after Brexit could help cross-border links.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> to some extent, that's what a certain mr corbyn said, except most of the media was more interested in the 'dave and boris show' and much of the parliamentary party would have preferred to be sharing a 'project fear' platform with cameron like in the scottish independence referendum...



There was basically no coverage of Corbyn that ever made the news but we know he was touring around the place. The media focused on Boris and Gove Vs Call me Dave.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 2, 2021)

Has the NHS had its first £350m extra yet, or are they waiting for the banks to open on Monday?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Has the NHS had its first £350m extra yet, or are they waiting for the banks to open on Monday?


Boris Johnson will be depositing the first installment, a cheque for £3.50, at the Pall Mall branch of Barclays first thing Monday


----------



## gosub (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I was I regret being sarcastic, I think any leave campaign which was in favour of retaining fofm would have lost the votes many racists to the ranks of abstainers



No great loss IMO except they wouldn't ALL have gone down the abstain route ...which brings you back to Jo Moore and whatever that arsehole was called (quite happy not knowing)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> No great loss IMO except they wouldn't ALL have gone down the abstain route ...which brings you back to Jo Moore and whatever that arsehole was called (quite happy not knowing)


Yeh which is why i said many racists, not all racists


----------



## Badgers (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Boris Johnson will be depositing the first installment, a cheque for £3.50, at the Pall Mall branch of Barclays first thing Monday


----------



## moochedit (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I was I regret being sarcastic, I think any leave campaign which was in favour of retaining fofm would have lost the votes many racists to the ranks of abstainers



Also in our 2 party fptp system i can't see either of the 2 main parties proposing joining schengen in their manifestos because they would lose the votes of those same racists.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 2, 2021)

Forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain to me why the price rises haven't occured yet? Is this going to happen later on?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Forgive my ignorance, but can someone explain to me why the price rises haven't occured yet? Is this going to happen later on?


Yes


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes


Thankyou. Do we know roughly when it's going to happen?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

The Monkeys have lost the rock, now!



Must be a really good 'agreement' to have yielded such diametric interpretations.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 2, 2021)

96% Gibraltarians voted Remain. Trouble with brexit was pretty inevitable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Thankyou. Do we know roughly when it's going to happen?


Later


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 96% Gibraltarians voted Remain. Trouble with brexit was pretty inevitable.


Indeed, but agreeing to become an external border of the Schengen area, with checks undertaken by the EU’s Frontex border agency has pretty obvious consequences for "sovereignty" wrt to movement of people.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Later


Fair enough


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Fair enough


You're welcome


----------



## brogdale (Jan 2, 2021)

I think some folk are forgetting that the German car makers and French cheesemakers need us more than we need them.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 2, 2021)

At least we can start training up a new generation of UK based truckers now?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

No disaster thus far. Just an entrenched Tory party and an inept opposition.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No disaster thus far. Just an entrenched Tory party and an inept opposition.


An entrenched Tory party (with inept opposition) is something of a disaster, no?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

brogdale said:


> An entrenched Tory party (with inept opposition) is something of a disaster, no?


I would certainly prefer something else.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

But the prediction of calamity is proving wide of the mark three days in.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 3, 2021)

This is the Phony Brexit. It'll all pick up soon enough.


----------



## Supine (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But the prediction of calamity is proving wide of the mark three days in.



Because no deal was avoided?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 3, 2021)

Because it's the weekend.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But the prediction of calamity is proving wide of the mark three days in.


It's certainly looking like the retailers, logistics and haulage industry got its ducks in a row to prepare for this first few days post-single market. I suspect that things may not look so uniformly rosy once we've eaten through the stockpiling and the manufacturers start up again in earnest.
But, I suppose OTWT.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2021)

The businesses no longer delivering to the UK can be safely ignored because only middle class people are affected  

Lexit any day now.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The businesses no longer delivering to the UK can be safely ignored because only middle class people are affected
> 
> Lexit any day now.


Are there any such businesses though? That have given up selling to the UK?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are there any such businesses though? That have given up selling to the UK?



Yep, if you drill into the thread multiple companies are mentioned



Artaxerxes said:


> Apparently the EU is bringing in similar changes itself.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> This is the Phony Brexit. It'll all pick up soon enough.



For narrative purposes the worst effects of brexit need to kick in just as covid wave 2 finally starts tailing off a bit. The trick is to let people draw half a breath before you punch them in the gut again


----------



## Supine (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Are there any such businesses though? That have given up selling to the UK?



Yes


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Apparently the EU is bringing in similar changes itself.




Interesting choice of language they've used for their company name


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yep, if you drill into the thread multiple companies are mentioned


We do make decent bike spares to be fair.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> Yes


Who?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yep, if you drill into the thread multiple companies are mentioned


tbf this one tiny example does looks a bit tenuous; surely the stories of haulage firms deciding not to run into UK from the supra state and their employees/contractors declining jobs involving the short straights crossing are potentially more concerning?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We do make decent bike spares to be fair.



Whoops.




Though tbf this is one of those logistic oddities like making Guinness in Dublin and shipping to Belfast for bottling that makes sense only to accountants not practicality or carbon footprints.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whoops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is an example of a brit company saying it's harder to sell to the EU. 

So back to examples of EU companies giving up on exporting to the UK?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whoops.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Yes and that's easily rectified by just not doing daft things like sending stuff to Italy only to send it back again.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yep, if you drill into the thread multiple companies are mentioned


That Dutchbikebits tweet is just one company being dickheads. That was posted pre-December when they couldn't possibly have know what the regime was going to be regarding exporting to the UK and, given the deal, is now shown to be complete bollocks anyway.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yes and that's easily rectified by just not doing daft things like sending stuff to Italy only to send it back again.


Bike saddles, affixed by one bolt and nut are beyond the weak skills of UK workers.


----------



## Voley (Jan 3, 2021)

Is THIS what you Leavers really voted for?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 3, 2021)

This is a bit strange - residency papers British and Spanish governments both say are valid being refused by airlines.









						Britons living in Spain barred from Madrid flight in post-Brexit travel row
					

British embassy says ‘this should not be happening’ after airline staff claim pre-Brexit ID documents are invalid




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2021)

two sheds said:


> This is a bit strange - residency papers British and Spanish governments both say are valid being refused by airlines.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's just a fuck-up by the look of it. There'll be plenty more of those in the coming weeks and months but if that's the extent of them it's hardly Armageddon.


----------



## tommers (Jan 3, 2021)

Sex arse tycoon.


----------



## bimble (Jan 3, 2021)

Don’t understand how 10,000 of those arses can fit into one lorry. Are they inflatable?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's just a fuck-up by the look of it. There'll be plenty more of those in the coming weeks and months but if that's the extent of them it's hardly Armageddon.



Indeed, a bit strange rather than Armageddon.


----------



## tommers (Jan 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t understand how 10,000 of those arses can fit into one lorry. Are they inflatable?


I have no idea I'm sure.

Might be a big lorry. Maybe they stack.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Don’t understand how 10,000 of those arses can fit into one lorry. Are they inflatable?


They're vacuum packed. Haven't you ever bought a sex arse before?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 3, 2021)

Voley said:


> Is THIS what you Leavers really voted for?
> 
> View attachment 246810



I think this is an entirely inappropriate way to report on our gallant MEPs returning home redundant.


----------



## bimble (Jan 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> They're vacuum packed. Haven't you ever bought a sex arse before?


Not yet no. I think he might be lying about the magnitude of his sex arse empire.


----------



## tommers (Jan 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not yet no. I think he might be lying about the magnitude of his sex arse empire.


He's credited with revitalising the British sex arse industry. Show some respect.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 3, 2021)

The real problems aren't going to appear for several months or even years.
Complex supply chains where parts get shipped around several times are now more complex. Not as bad as they would have been if there was no deal  but still more complex and hence more expensive and there will be pressure to simplify and thus save money,
This will actually result in some jobs coming back to the UK but given the relative differences in the size of the EU compared to the UK, the EU will be favoured. 
The other problem is forward investment, much of the investment in the UK  is a result of it being a gateway into Europe. That has already been peetering out over the last 4 years anyway. Tesla is building their European factory in Germany where the UK may have been a better choice. 
The Nissan factory in Sunderland is not likely to be at the top of the list for new models anymore and rather than close immediately will now probably fade away over a few years before it shuts. And we all have ranted about the arsehole Brexiteer building Land-rover in France.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Not yet no. I think he might be lying about the magnitude of his sex arse empire.


I think you might be right. Probably an insurance sex arse scam. In a few days there’ll be a lorry fire in France and he’ll claim for 10,000 sex arses when only a few hundred were on board.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 3, 2021)

Brooks are owned by an Italian company so it's not all that surprising that distribution is via Italy. There will be endless cases of this and you can address each one in turn saying 'well why don't we just...', but in total it amounts to 'why don't we just unilaterally opt out of globalisation'. I mean, you can try, but it's what sanctions are supposed to do to a country.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's just a fuck-up by the look of it. There'll be plenty more of those in the coming weeks and months but if that's the extent of them it's hardly Armageddon.


Its the move from paper certificates to biometric ones , they are doing the same in Portugal. The intention is the new biometric ones will render the old paper ones invalid and someones taken that literally at the airline. The last minute deal  the festive holiday and covid restrictions have had an impact on some people making late applications for residency here , there wont be an extension but if you can prove you were here before Dec 31st you can still  apply through the old process .


----------



## Voley (Jan 3, 2021)

I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion about how many sex arses you can fit in a lorry. I've always felt it was heading that way.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2021)

Prob not exactly the right thread but has anyone read Perry Andersons 'Ever Closer Union'  essay ?  Its long and complex, well  compared to the cut and pasting of Guardian articles,  but imo a fascinating analysis of the history and the evolution of the EU. Its behind a paywall but you get one free article a month before the paywall kicks in.  Perry Anderson · Ever Closer Union? · LRB 7 January 2021


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Brooks are owned by an Italian company so it's not all that surprising that distribution is via Italy. There will be endless cases of this and you can address each one in turn saying 'well why don't we just...', but in total it amounts to 'why don't we just unilaterally opt out of globalisation'. I mean, you can try, but it's what sanctions are supposed to do to a country.



No it's fine, brexit has made no changes to postage or imports and any changes that exist are purely imaginary and not affecting any businesses anyone cares about even if they did theoretically exist which they don't. 

Clear?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

Voley said:


> I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion about how many sex arses you can fit in a lorry. I've always felt it was heading that way.


This is urban after all


----------



## andysays (Jan 3, 2021)

Voley said:


> Is THIS what you Leavers really voted for?
> 
> View attachment 246810


Don't tell there are no adequately trained British workers who know how to make sex arses either. 

Must we really rely on Romanians and Indians for *everything?   *


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Prob not exactly the right thread but has anyone read Perry Andersons 'Ever Closer Union'  essay ?  Its long and complex, well  compared to the cut and pasting of Guardian articles,  but imo a fascinating analysis of the history and the evolution of the EU. Its behind a paywall but you get one free article a month before the paywall kicks in.  Perry Anderson · Ever Closer Union? · LRB 7 January 2021


That's the second part of a three part series, last one in next issue. I've uploaded the two so far, see 









						EU Reading List
					

That's such a recipe for success, I don't understand how they failed. Me neither. They had the miracle worker who helped the Lib Dems keep 8 MPs.




					www.urban75.net


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 3, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> That's the second part of a three part series, last one in next issue. I've uploaded the two so far, see
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Butchers , I really enjoyed it and learnt a lot.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 3, 2021)

Voley said:


> I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion about how many sex arses you can fit in a lorry. I've always felt it was heading that way.



_The Economist: _ "What does Brexit mean for the EU’s international standing and security?"

_Der Speigel: _"How should the EU negotiate internal changes in the wake of the British exit?" 

_Urban75:_ "How many sex-arses can you get on a 40 foot trailer?"


----------



## prunus (Jan 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> _The Economist: _ "What does Brexit mean for the EU’s international standing and security?"
> 
> _Der Speigel: _"How should the EU negotiate internal changes in the wake of the British exit?"
> 
> _Urban75:_ "How many sex-arses can you get on a 40 foot trailer?"



This is exactly the problem - the europhile metropolitan elite are just not addressing the issues that matter to the ordinary person!


----------



## Smangus (Jan 3, 2021)

Have to say, my faith in Urban has been reaffirmed in the last couple of pages


----------



## BCBlues (Jan 3, 2021)

How about if the guy with the sexarses teams up with Brooke's and sits one bum each on a bike saddle then transports. Everybody's happy.


----------



## Supine (Jan 3, 2021)

Voley said:


> I'm glad this thread has turned into a discussion about how many sex arses you can fit in a lorry. I've always felt it was heading that way.



European sex arses. We need traditional British sex arses.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> _The Economist: _ "What does Brexit mean for the EU’s international standing and security?"
> 
> _Der Speigel: _"How should the EU negotiate internal changes in the wake of the British exit?"
> 
> _Urban75:_ "How many sex-arses can you get on a 40 foot trailer?"


An African or a European trailer?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2021)

any clarification on whether us brits can still use EU visa free travel arrangements for the rest of the world ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> any clarification on whether us brits can still use EU visa free travel arrangements for the rest of the world ?


Our ability to travel ends at dover


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2021)

TBF, Dover has many many attractions in itself.


----------



## andysays (Jan 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> European sex arses. We need traditional British sex arses.


Exactly.

Surely I can't be the only one old enough to remember when British sex arses were the envy of the world.


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Our ability to travel ends at dover


What are doing in Dover? Its tier 4 ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> What are doing in Dover? Its tier 4 ffs


I mean the continent no longer welcomes britons


----------



## gosub (Jan 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I mean the continent no longer welcomes britons


tbf they stopped doing that a while ago, treat us like everybody else these days....I blame not having the most powerful Navy in the world any more


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbf they stopped doing that a while ago, treat us like everybody else these days....I blame not having the most powerful Navy in the world any more


By welcomes I meant of course admits


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 3, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> any clarification on whether us brits can still use EU visa free travel arrangements for the rest of the world ?


No we can't but in reality it probably won't actually change much. Countries that currently allow visa free travel for Brits will almost certainly continue to do so.
The principal behind visa free travel is the assurance that you will go home rather than disappear when your visit is over. For a few years at least that isn't likely to change much. The big difference is that it is now harder to go to Europe and will get harder still in 2022 with the introduction of ETIAS 
We're now in the same position as Americans, Australians etc.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 3, 2021)

Yep. I know the EU regime is based on agreed levels of reciprocity with the counterparts. I do not relish the prospect of the Johnson Junta having to plough through new arrangements with other countries to get some degree of continuity, specially with the  reciprocity meaning forren johnnies could still demand preferential access to the UK, going against the fortress UK mindset.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 3, 2021)

The Sport do have a way with words.  “Substandard Chinese sex arses” and “sex arse tycoon” will have me chuckling for a while.

Incidentally, do you reckon the story is completely made up from nothing at all or do you think there was some tiny kernel of truth that the Sport completely altered?  I’m always curious with their stories if they bother with any grain of truth. It seems a lot easier (and arguably less risky, even) to create it from scratch.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 3, 2021)

So, _pulling out_ of the single market was a bum deal after all... 

Oh well, turn the other cheek....


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 3, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> TBF, Dover has many many attractions in itself.



The way out of Britain being number one


----------



## philosophical (Jan 3, 2021)

I believe a number of people wouldn't buy a Brooks saddle because they're made of animal skins.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 3, 2021)

Professor Grey makes a fair point here...


----------



## not a trot (Jan 3, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> TBF, Dover has many many attractions in itself.



 But Bluebirds have never been seen there.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 3, 2021)

not a trot said:


> But Bluebirds have never been seen there.


tbf to Walter Kent, he didn't know that.


----------



## Voley (Jan 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Professor Grey makes a fair point here...



#NewTagLine


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 3, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Professor Grey makes a fair point here...



it's the sort of thing viz might have thought of and then rejected as being unbelievable


----------



## prunus (Jan 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's the sort of thing viz might have thought of and then rejected as being unbelievable



My favourite bit of that is that he’s the “man credited with resurrecting the British sex arse industry” :-D  Well played, Sport journalist, well played.


----------



## Voley (Jan 3, 2021)

prunus said:


> My favourite bit of that is that he’s the “man credited with resurrecting the British sex arse industry” :-D  Well played, Sport journalist, well played.


Early candidate for the 2021 Pulitzer imo.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 4, 2021)

Just got an email from Cotic, a British bike company with another example of the mess we're in:



> *EU Exports*
> 
> Despite the trade deal having been signed between the UK and the EU, there is still some lack of clarity on the charging of import duty for certain Cotic product lines. However, some things we know:
> 
> ...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 4, 2021)

I've just been doing my tax return. I'm self employed, and don't have anything terribly complicated tax-wise, but just trudging through that is enough to give me a headache, and I only have to do it once a year, and even if the rules and advice are not always very clear, at least there's generally a "known correct answer" out there somewhere.

I'm very grateful that none of my work involves anything to do with exporting or importing stuff abroad. It must be a complete nightmare at the moment, especially for small businesses and sole traders, who don't have easy access to legal or specialist advice on all of this. And on top of everything caused by Covid. If you're one of those people and are reading this, you have my sympathy. What a mess.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 4, 2021)

not a trot said:


> But Bluebirds have never been seen there.




Google Maps

My mum and her brother had their 70th birthday bash there


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 4, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm very grateful that none of my work involves anything to do with exporting or importing stuff abroad. It must be a complete nightmare at the moment, especially for small businesses and sole traders, who don't have easy access to legal or specialist advice on all of this. And on top of everything caused by Covid. If you're one of those people and are reading this, you have my sympathy. What a mess.



Couldn't agree more, and it sounds as if some businesses just aren't coping with it, not helped by the government consistently playing down the fact that a trade deal and single market membership aren't synonyms:



> Jon Swallow, co-founder of Jordon Freight, which moves goods between the U.K. and EU, said he has delayed most of his truck movements for two weeks to avoid any potential Brexit snarl-ups and opted to avoid Dover where possible.
> 
> Swallow said that he wasn’t expecting any problems this week, but -- in a sign of potential trouble ahead -- he said he has received multiple calls from businesses on Monday that believed that they wouldn’t need to file any new paperwork to cross the channel because the U.K. and EU reached a free-trade accord. This is incorrect: Firms will still need to file customs declarations and comply with other new formalities due to Brexit.
> 
> “We’re so shocked,” Swallow said. “These are not small companies.”


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2021)

Brexit; remember that?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2021)

Literally nothing; not even a queue at Dover?


----------



## Flavour (Jan 5, 2021)

The British passengers being refused entry to their country of residence (Spain, Italy, others) is a cause for concern, impossible to say how this would have gone through if Brexit had been finalized in non-pandemic times


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The British passengers being refused entry to their country of residence (Spain, Italy, others) is a cause for concern, impossible to say how this would have gone through if Brexit had been finalized in non-pandemic times


And not in the Xmas New Year period where most countries civil services are on holiday


----------



## Winot (Jan 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Literally nothing; not even a queue at Dover?



No queues because goods aren’t being sent EU-UK:




__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




Also some issues expected in RoI/NI:








						Dublin Port delays expected due to post-Brexit checks
					

There are very low levels of trade at Dublin Port according to Revenue, however officials expect delays over the next week due to increased post-Brexit checks.




					www.rte.ie


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 5, 2021)

How’s the traditional and essential Spanish lettuce situation holding up in the the U.K. ?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How’s the traditional and essential Spanish lettuce situation holding up in the the U.K. ?


Slightly less shredded iceberg than usual adorning the pavements away from my local Kebab, if that's any indicator.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Slightly less shredded iceberg than usual adorning the pavements away from my local Kebab, if that's any indicator.


people realise how foolish it is to waste food now


----------



## brogdale (Jan 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> people realise how foolish it is to waste food now


Yeah, come to think about it, there could be other variables at play here; maybe not the very finest indicator of EU-UK trade in salad foods.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 5, 2021)

Winot said:


> No queues because goods aren’t being sent EU-UK:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Also the fact that traffic is at quite a low level atm because of Christmas, the pandemic and stockpiling ahead of a potential no-deal by businesses and some consumers.  When traffic starts to return to something like its normal level is when we'll see how well the border arrangements work.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 5, 2021)

I've not checked if this is actually what the Express reported, but the bit about British boats tying up for lack of access to Norwegian grounds is true.


----------



## AnandLeo (Jan 5, 2021)

weltweit said:


> If I understand you correctly, about the potential future application of market controls like future tariffs in response to changes, I don't have a problem with it.


The tariffs affect the consumers, producers, manufacturers, and supply chain. The government benefits from the tariffs.


----------



## 2hats (Jan 5, 2021)

3rd January 2020...

4th January 2020...


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 6, 2021)

2hats said:


> 3rd January 2020...
> View attachment 247274
> 4th January 2020...
> View attachment 247273



The Express is quite slow on the uptake, as this has been an issue for some weeks now.  The only big trawler based in Hull these days is currently laid up for lack of work. I doubt that is what those round here who voted leave in the belief that it would bring the fishing industry back to the city envisaged...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 6, 2021)

View attachment VID-20210105-WA0013.mp4


----------



## teqniq (Jan 6, 2021)

What a cunt:









						Scrap EU consumer and worker protections now Brexit is completed, leading Tory says
					

Safeguards over data, pay and conditions, GM foods, hedge funds and disposal of old vehicles should all be binned, Daniel Hannan says




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Winot (Jan 6, 2021)

Shocked I tell you - shocked!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 6, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What a cunt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He has booked a berth to grytviken


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 6, 2021)

Dan Hannan is a ridiculous individual and I doubt anyone is paying much attention to him.  What we should be more worried about is the number of political advisers from shady libertarian think-thanks on Tufton Street, and the fact that over the years a lot of Brexit supporters have openly argued that outside the EU Britain can deregulate the economy and marketise society more easily than it can within.  That's clearly the direction of travel, though the divergence provisions in the Brexit deal might constrain it for a while.  The pandemic has probably chucked quite a spanner in the works, though, and that may reduce the amount of damage they can do before the next election.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> As I understand it livestock farmers are always selling the stuff on, though I'm more familiar with it being cow semen as its cheaper and more efficient for dairy herds just to buy it and then do the whole business artificially than rent a bull for a bit.



Cow semen?

I think you need to revisit 3rd-year biology!


----------



## Raheem (Jan 7, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cow semen?
> 
> I think you need to revisit 3rd-year biology!


Reckon JK Rowling will be with you on that.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 7, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cow semen?
> 
> I think you need to revisit 3rd-year biology!



What a load of bull


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2021)

A380 said:


> I’m also starting to suspect that that soldier may not actually be a member of the Guards Division.



Nah, they're definitely a real Guardsman. Probably Coldstream. They have a penchant for lurking, as Bob Boothby MP well knew.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Because we get all the fucking stuff in Cornwall



But don't worry. Wales gets even more!


----------



## two sheds (Jan 7, 2021)

true although when there's a north wind we just get it afterwards


----------



## A380 (Jan 7, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, they're definitely a real Guardsman. Probably Coldstream. They have a penchant for lurking, as Bob Boothby MP well knew.



“Makes you proud to be British”.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 7, 2021)

Customers in Europe hit by post-Brexit charges when buying from UK
					

Shoppers tell of shock at unexpected bills for VAT or customs declarations as some retailers stop shipping to continent




					www.theguardian.com
				




Charges starting to impact


----------



## Winot (Jan 7, 2021)

Increasing evidence that the UK’s ability to act as a hub (import/re-export goods into EU) is finished:









						Debenhams closes online in Ireland as 50 major UK retailers face EU tariffs  | ITV News
					

It is no longer possible for Debenhams to deliver orders to the Republic of Ireland "due to uncertainty around post-Brexit trade rules".




					www.itv.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2021)

i hear that british fishermen have been on a fact-finding mission to somalia, and that with somali help they will be repurposing their vessels to become real buccaneers. i don't suppose the hijacking of cargo ships and oil tankers sailing up the english channel is what boris johnson had in mind with his talk of a buccaneering britain but it's what increasing numbers of sailors will have to turn to now that the notion of britain as an entrepot to europe and the feted revival of the british fishing industry have turned to ashes in tory mouths


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i hear that british fishermen have been on a fact-finding mission to somalia, and that with somali help they will be repurposing their vessels to become real buccaneers. i don't suppose the hijacking of cargo ships and oil tankers sailing up the english channel is what boris johnson had in mind with his talk of a buccaneering britain but it's what increasing numbers of sailors will have to turn to now that the notion of britain as an entrepot to europe and the feted revival of the british fishing industry have turned to ashes in tory mouths



60% of our piracy quota has already been sold to EU-based companies anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> 60% of our piracy quota has already been sold to EU-based companies anyway.


the people i am talking about have stuck up two fingers to johnson and his crappy quota


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 7, 2021)

Winot said:


> Increasing evidence that the UK’s ability to act as a hub (import/re-export goods into EU) is finished:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This is why Johnson's been waffling on about freeports.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is why Johnson's been waffling on about freeports.


Don't think "Freeports" fit with the deal struck, tbh...the suprastate will be all over that like a rash...


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Don't think "Freeports" fit with the deal struck, tbh...the suprastate will be all over that like a rash...



It depends a bit on exactly what 'freeport' means, since it's a bit of a moveable feast, but Britain actually had freeports until about 2012.  They didn't achieve anything and were one of the few things no-one really cared about when they fell prey to Osbornomics.  Talk of freeports now is mainly piss and wind, as far as I can see.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 7, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> It depends a bit on exactly what 'freeport' means, since it's a bit of a moveable feast, but Britain actually had freeports until about 2012.  They didn't achieve anything and were one of the few things no-one really cared about when they fell prey to Osbornomics.  Talk of freeports now is mainly piss and wind, as far as I can see.


Yeah, I'd imagine the supra-state would be cool with entities that didn't achieve anything...it would be if they did that they'd kick off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is why Johnson's been waffling on about freeports.


there's a convention concerning them at the qe2 conference centre on the 16th

only in the quaint english way they'll be officially designated fairports


----------



## brogdale (Jan 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there's a convention concerning them at the qe2 conference centre on the 16th
> 
> only in the quaint english way they'll be officially designated fairports


Who knows where the tariffs go?


----------



## Supine (Jan 7, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Talk of freeports now is mainly piss and wind, as far as I can see.



They are good for money laundering which might be why the current tories like the idea so much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Who knows where the tariffs go?


johnson and his cabal have deep pockets and offshore bank accounts.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> johnson and his cabal have deep pockets and offshore bank accounts.


Especially that Sir Patrick Spens, eh?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 7, 2021)

Supine said:


> They are good for money laundering which might be why the current tories like the idea so much.



That is true, although frankly there are so many other money-laundering opportunities that I'm not sure they'd make that much difference!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Especially that Sir Patrick Spens, eh?


it's well known sir patrick spends


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 7, 2021)




----------



## Roadkill (Jan 7, 2021)

I meant to post that video of Perkes.  It's grimly funny, given that he was vocally pro-leave until recently.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2021)

Winot said:


> Increasing evidence that the UK’s ability to act as a hub (import/re-export goods into EU) is finished:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Debenhams closed all their online euro outlets with the exception of Ireland  mid summer due to their precarious financial status .


----------



## Winot (Jan 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Debenhams closed all their online euro outlets with the exception of Ireland  mid summer due to their precarious financial status .



Well that probably explains why they’ve fallen first. Let’s see if it’s a one-off or a sign of things to come.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 7, 2021)

Debenhams is a twitching corpse tbf


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 7, 2021)

Winot said:


> Well that probably explains why they’ve fallen first. Let’s see if it’s a one-off or a sign of things to come.


Anything touched by Ashley doesn't always turn to gold tbh


----------



## ska invita (Jan 8, 2021)

Doesnt sound too good for those affected








						Brexit: Problems grow at UK ports with backlogs and delays
					

Many retailers believe they will be paying taxes on exports of goods that are not fully made in Britain.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




this was from yesterday, posted on other thread by mistake








						Customers in Europe hit by post-Brexit charges when buying from UK
					

Shoppers tell of shock at unexpected bills for VAT or customs declarations as some retailers stop shipping to continent




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Jan 8, 2021)

You Brexit bastards!   



> Percy Pig has emerged as one of the first casualties of Brexit red tape, with Marks & Spencer warning that the famous pink sweets it sells in its Irish stores could be hit with new import taxes.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 8, 2021)

Despite the stockpiling that went on before Christmas, in an attempt to avoid the worst impact of brexit, there have still been problems in getting in the normally expected supplies of both food and medicines. Some of the shortages have been more acute than others, and yet still brexit supporters continue to challenge the idea that anything has in fact changed.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 8, 2021)

Love a good shrotage!


----------



## Anju (Jan 8, 2021)

Some more fish people having problems with non tariff barriers. 









						UK fishermen halting exports to EU as ‘catastrophic’ Brexit bureaucracy renders business unviable
					

Perishable seafood first casualty of Boris Johnson’s new trade barriers




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Smangus (Jan 8, 2021)

Trouble is that people mistake tariffs for duty and tax. Tariffs are imposed on top of these - wto rules etc. Now we are out of the SM tax and duty are charged even if we are tariff free.


----------



## not a trot (Jan 8, 2021)

Anju said:


> Some more fish people having problems with non tariff barriers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Shapps is keeping his eye on things, so nothing to worry about.


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 8, 2021)

Turns out the 'tariff-free' agreement isn't always so much Firms including M&S suspend EU exports over Brexit smallprint


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 8, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Trouble is that people mistake tariffs for duty and tax. Tariffs are imposed on top of these - wto rules etc. Now we are out of the SM tax and duty are charged even if we are tariff free.




Doesn't have to be, the UK government and the EU choose to add tax and duty to certain goods as they cross borders, equally they can choose for the rate of tax and duty to be zero should they wish.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 8, 2021)

In a Win for UK Antiquities Dealers, Britain Will Abandon the EU's Strict Regulations on Importing Cultural Heritage Now That It's Finalized Brexit
					

The European Union's regulations were conceived as a way to curb the illegal trafficking of cultural goods.




					news.artnet.com
				






> “I wouldn’t say the UK is rejecting the EU rule,” Dalton told Artnet News. “It is just not going to apply it, which it is within its rights to do now.”
> 
> 
> Conceived as a way to curb the illegal trafficking of cultural goods, which had become a source of finance for terrorist organizations, the EU’s 2019 law requires a special license for importers, one that can only be obtained with proof that their wares were legally exported from the country of origin. Most significantly, the law granted European officials  authority to “take any appropriate measure” in confiscating cultural goods imported without the proper documentation.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Doesn't have to be, the UK government and the EU choose to add tax and duty to certain goods as they cross borders, equally they can choose for the rate of tax and duty to be zero should they wish.



True, but rates of tax/duty applied are distinct from the principles. Duty is an indirect tax whereas tariffs are charged for protectionist purposes and are direct taxes. Differing rates of each can be set, but duty and tariffs are different.

We can be in a tariff free area but duty, VAT etc can still be due. The point I am trying to make is that they are not the same whereas a lot of people assume that if we have a tariff free agreement with a trading block then that means no duty is charged. Whereas it maybe, depending on what class of goods/services are being imported and what rates are applicable in the UK.

When we were in the EU this did not matter as tax and duty were paid in the source country (generally) so if you bought something from France/Germany for example you paid 1 price and that was it, now we are out tax and duty are due at UK rates on importation.


ETA - one of the main (economic) arguments for Brexit was that we are free to set what duty rates we like, this might not be as easy as we think.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 8, 2021)

This is what the useless cunt signed up to...


----------



## Winot (Jan 8, 2021)

Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, said on Friday that disruption at Britain's border had not been "too profound" yet - but admitted: "It is the case that in the weeks ahead, we expect that there will be significant additional disruption - particularly on the Dover-Calais route."









						Brexit: Michael Gove warns of 'significant disruption' at border as effects of trade change begin to be felt
					

A freight firm warns drivers that vehicles are being held up or turned away from Dover in Kent and Calais and Dunkirk in France.




					news.sky.com


----------



## brogdale (Jan 8, 2021)

Winot said:


> Michael Gove, the Cabinet Office minister, said on Friday that disruption at Britain's border had not been "too profound" yet - but admitted: "It is the case that in the weeks ahead, we expect that there will be significant additional disruption - particularly on the Dover-Calais route."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank goodness it'll only be on the Dover-Calais route...can't be much stuff that moves via that crossing?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Thank goodness it'll only be on the Dover-Calais route...can't be much stuff that moves via that crossing?



Most of the UK’s trade with Europe goes on the Holyhead-Hamburg ferry, so this is no problem.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's well known sir patrick spends



Usually into the open mouth of his footman.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 8, 2021)

Northern Ireland









						Brexit: Why are the shelves empty in some supermarkets?
					

Leading supermarkets confirm new Brexit arrangements are restricting supplies to Northern Ireland.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



Question is how temporary


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 8, 2021)




----------



## ska invita (Jan 8, 2021)

An interesting bit from here








						'I'm stuck here': lorry drivers in Calais begin to feel effects of Brexit
					

Truck drivers tell of long delays for checks at the Eurotunnel as trade barrier goes up between UK and EU




					www.theguardian.com
				



is
"In normal times, 6,000 to 9,000 HGVs cross the Channel each day, but the Department for Transport said just over 2,000 HGVs crossed on 6 January"
...so yeah, still to be tested at regular capacity


----------



## Supine (Jan 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Doesn't have to be, the UK government and the EU choose to add tax and duty to certain goods as they cross borders, equally they can choose for the rate of tax and duty to be zero should they wish.



Yeah. That was the single market. Relies countries agreeing to rules on regulations etc. Brexit in a nut shell.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 8, 2021)

A change from the pressing issues of paperwork and Spanish lettuces. Quite an interesting row breaking out in the EU over supply and distribution of the vaccine. Ireland been told tby the EU hat on no account can they source  more vaccine despite stocks being low. Ireland were apparently looking for suppliers outside of  the EU procurement arrangements . Meanwhile it appears that  Denmark purchased 2.6m doses outside the EU programme.  and Germany  30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of the EU procurement  arrangements.


----------



## Supine (Jan 9, 2021)




----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 9, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A change from the pressing issues of paperwork and Spanish lettuces. Quite an interesting row breaking out in the EU over supply and distribution of the vaccine. Ireland been told tby the EU hat on no account can they source  more vaccine despite stocks being low. Ireland were apparently looking for suppliers outside of  the EU procurement arrangements . Meanwhile it appears that  Denmark purchased 2.6m doses outside the EU programme.  and Germany  30 million extra BioNTech/Pfizer doses outside of the EU procurement  arrangements.


The EU seem to have been a bit crap in this key area - seriously embarrassing when it turns out there was some truth in the spin put out by Johnson and co. ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> The EU seem to have been a bit crap in this key area - seriously embarrassing when it turns out there was some truth in the spin put out by Johnson and co. ...


if you lie as often as Johnson does then now and again something you say will come true, doesn't mean anything more than coincidence


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> An interesting bit from here
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Perhaps this is the new regular capacity


----------



## ska invita (Jan 9, 2021)

Brexit: Edwin Poots warns of job losses and food shortages
					

Cabinet Office Minister Michael Gove says "work is ongoing" to improve trade from GB to NI.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				




Poots has been a Brexit cheerleader btw:




__





						Leave vote ‘good news’ for Northern Ireland – Edwin Poots
					

The DUP’s Edwin Poots has welcomed the UK's vote to leave the EU, stating it is “good news for the people of Northern Ireland”.  “The citizens of the United Kingdom have voted to be a sovereign nation once again and a nation where democracy can be manifested as opposed to unelected appointed...




					www.itv.com
				



this from 1st Jan 2021








						DUP’s critics slam Poots as he hails Leave EU chief Arron Banks for Brexit efforts
					

DUP minister Edwin Poots has been criticised for thanking a leading Brexit campaigner for his efforts following the UK’s withdrawal from the European Union — even though his party voted against the deal.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk
				





Anyone know what Article 16 is that he mentions?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 9, 2021)

Admit it remainiacs...old King Swivel has got you nailed this time!


----------



## contadino (Jan 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 247931
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Article 16 Safeguards
> 1. If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol
> 2. If a safeguard measure taken by the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, in accordance with paragraph 1 creates an imbalance between the rights and obligations under this Protocol, the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may take such proportionate rebalancing measures as are strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol.
> 3. Safeguard and rebalancing measures taken in accordance with paragraphs 1 and 2 shall be governed by the procedures set out in Annex 7 to this Protocol.



From https://assets.publishing.service.g...ised_Protocol_to_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf
...although I don't really understand the implications wrt borders/GFA of pulling the rug unilaterally. I'm guessing it wouldn't bode well, though.


----------



## Winot (Jan 9, 2021)

A useful thread on Article 16:


----------



## ska invita (Jan 9, 2021)

contadino said:


> From https://assets.publishing.service.g...ised_Protocol_to_the_Withdrawal_Agreement.pdf
> ...although I don't really understand the implications wrt borders/GFA of pulling the rug unilaterally. I'm guessing it wouldn't bode well, though.


thank you

so heres article 16
Article 16 Safeguards

 1. If the application of this Protocol leads to serious economic, societal or environmental difficulties that are liable to persist, or to diversion of trade, the Union or the United Kingdom may unilaterally take appropriate safeguard measures. Such safeguard measures shall be restricted with regard to their scope and duration to what is strictly necessary in order to remedy the situation. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol.

 2. If a safeguard measure taken by the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, in accordance with paragraph 1 creates an imbalance between the rights and obligations under this Protocol, the Union or the United Kingdom, as the case may be, may take such proportionate rebalancing measures as are strictly necessary to remedy the imbalance. Priority shall be given to such measures as will least disturb the functioning of this Protocol. 

3. Safeguard and rebalancing measures taken in accordance with paragraphs 1 and 2 shall be governed by the procedures set out in Annex 7 to this Protocol. 

4. Good luck with that


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 9, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> The EU seem to have been a bit crap in this key area - seriously embarrassing when it turns out there was some truth in the spin put out by Johnson and co. ...



A good if rather gloating summary in the Spectator:









						The EU has botched its vaccination programme | The Spectator
					

It was the most excruciating moment of Ursula von der Leyen’s short tenure as President of the European Commission. On Friday morning she hastily put together a press conference to counter the growing media storm across Europe over the EU’s handling of vaccine procurement. She doubled down on...




					www.spectator.co.uk


----------



## Supine (Jan 9, 2021)

Hundreds of jobs face axe as chemical firm moves production to France
					

BASF will not restart its plant - which makes plastic car parts - at Seal Sands, putting 90 workers and 300 contractors at risk




					www.gazettelive.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jan 9, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> A good if rather gloating summary in the Spectator:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Putting Brexit and the specifics of the EU aside for a moment I think this is an interesting case - the final paragraph captures the issue:

*" Perhaps the most important lesson is this: the EU is governed by the idea that bigger is always better, and that co-operation is always better than competition. But it is clear that when it comes to creating and rolling out vaccines, that is far from true. "*

The principle of bulk buying so as to avoid Vaccine Nationalism is a sound one -there is every danger the smaller/poorer countries will miss out on the vaccines, and it doesn't seem fair the market chooses who gets a relatively scarce but vital resource. As a rule i do think co-operation is nearly always better than competition, certainly so in this case, in theory.

And yet its clearly a fuck up, and its hard to know for certain exactly what went wrong. Looks like a degree of human error? But I wouldn't be surprised if its true that an overly large bureaucracy is part of the problem.

What is the ideal size of a political unit of governance? is it possible to regularly do things collectively across an area the size and population of Europe?
Id like to think it is.... not with the same political structure that the EU has of course, but still... I think the principle here is correct and the Spectator may be happy to see the market working well for Britain (for this moment at least - Britain's supply might yet run dry sooner than expected), but there's no mention of who loses out in this moment of near global need when its left to the inter-national market.


----------



## 2hats (Jan 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Id like to think it is.... not with the same political structure that the EU has of course, but still... I think the principle here is correct and the Spectator may be happy to see the market working well for Britain (for this moment at least - Britain's supply might yet run dry sooner than expected), but there's no mention of who loses out in this moment of near global need when its left to the inter-national market.


If other countries can not reach appropriate vaccine driven immunity levels then this will of course become a problem for those countries that have been been in a privileged position to already do so.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 9, 2021)

Unfuckingbelievable:

UK ‘rejected offer’ of visa-free tours by musicians in EU, despite blaming Brussels for permit blow


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 9, 2021)

beat me to it grrr


----------



## belboid (Jan 9, 2021)

Oh look, the tories lied about who blocked visa free touring for uk musicians









						UK ‘rejected offer’ of visa-free tours by musicians in EU, despite blaming Brussels for permit blow
					

Exclusive: ‘Standard’ proposal to exempt performers for 90 days was proposed, but ‘the UK said no’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## tommers (Jan 9, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> The pandemic has probably chucked quite a spanner in the works, though, and that may reduce the amount of damage they can do before the next election.



Why? Surely that adds more reasons to "cut red tape" and make "great British businesses" competitive again?

"due to the unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in we have decided to temporarily remove the legal requirements on businesses to offer statutory maternity leave.  We hope that this and the other relaxations that we recently announced will enable them to be more flexible and adapt more quickly to the fast moving global market" etc etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 9, 2021)

tommers said:


> Why? Surely that adds more reasons to "cut red tape" and make "great British businesses" competitive again?
> 
> "due to the unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in we have decided to temporarily remove the legal requirements on businesses to offer statutory maternity leave.  We hope that this and the other relaxations that we recently announced will enable them to be more flexible and adapt more quickly to the fast moving global market" etc etc.


Except that hes got to keep one eye on the red wall and the proclaimed levelling up agenda if he wants to retain Tory w/class votes


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 10, 2021)

tommers said:


> Why? Surely that adds more reasons to "cut red tape" and make "great British businesses" competitive again?
> 
> "due to the unprecedented situation that we find ourselves in we have decided to temporarily remove the legal requirements on businesses to offer statutory maternity leave.  We hope that this and the other relaxations that we recently announced will enable them to be more flexible and adapt more quickly to the fast moving global market" etc etc.



I think that's a possibility in the coming years, but that they might well have started moving in that direction already were it not for the pandemic.  Tbh I think in the long run NHS privatisation is lurking as a possibility, and the pandemic - so far at least - will have served to make that politically unthinkable.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 10, 2021)

They've been privatizing under cover of the pandemic, too, though - test & trace and PPE contracts for their mates for example.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 10, 2021)

Did the NHS previously manufacture its own PPE?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 10, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Did the NHS previously manufacture its own PPE?



They presumably had trusted suppliers, rather than just some jokers who gave some tory MP a few lines at a dinner party once.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 10, 2021)

Corporate rumblings...






> One leading figure involved in the talks with Gove described the new rule book as a “*complete shitshow*”. Another said Gove seemed “very concerned” at hearing reports of problems, after a week in which Marks & Spencer was among leading companies to warn that more bureaucracy would increase costs. The source added: “He [Gove] seemed to realise the full gravity of the situation that is unfolding and about to get worse.”


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 10, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Corporate rumblings...
> 
> View attachment 248125






			
				Boris Johnson said:
			
		

> fuck business


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 10, 2021)

leave [dot] eu has had to move its registered office to ireland as brexit means you can't have an .eu domain website registered in the uk, apparently









						Pro-Brexit campaign Leave.EU relocates to Waterford
					

Campaign migrates registered office for its website so it can retain .eu internet address




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## ska invita (Jan 10, 2021)

Two aubergine pack, now £4.25 at my local shop 
Supermarket had none 

I don't think it's just local to me


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Two aubergine pack, now £4.25 at my local shop
> Supermarket had none
> 
> I don't think it's just local to me



Might be the fact that there’s a cold front in Southern Europe to the point where it’s snowed in Portugal , Spain and other countries ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Two aubergine pack, now £4.25 at my local shop
> Supermarket had none
> 
> I don't think it's just local to me



from the sainsbury's website just now


waitrose


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 10, 2021)

No shortage of pointy peppers at the moment.
I'm running down my hoard...


----------



## Flavour (Jan 11, 2021)

A quid fifty for a single aubergine is bloody loads - back to turnips and cauliflower you lot


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 11, 2021)

Flavour said:


> A quid fifty for a single aubergine is bloody loads - back to turnips and cauliflower you lot


I never see turnips in Bristol...just swede that is relatively expensive , or mooli ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> I never see turnips in Bristol...just swede that is relatively expensive , or mooli ...



Turnip greens are fantastic definitely work growing


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Turnip greens are fantastic definitely work growing


Doubtless I will be looking for reliable brassicas once I have a decent sized garden.
I'm not sure I ever bought turnips, but have a persistent memory of preparing them for analysis from 40-odd years ago when I briefly worked for the Min of Ag and Fish ...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Doubtless I will be looking for reliable brassicas once I have a decent sized garden.
> I'm not sure I ever bought turnips, but have a persistent memory of preparing them for analysis from 40-odd years ago when I briefly worked for the Min of Ag and Fish ...


The white ones with the crimson tops make a lovely soup and the golden ones are good roasted. You dont need  a big space to grown rapini which is very quick to grow looks like miniature broccoli but is more closer to turnip greens . You can get 60 or 90 day versions.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 11, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Just got an email from Cotic, a British bike company with another example of the mess we're in:


An update:


> *EU Export - New Rules*
> 
> Before I get into this in detail, please remember that this is Cotic specific. We have a particular implementation because of our UK made frames and also because we sell predominantly mountain bikes. This means our bikes generally have very high value suspension bolted to them (the same, if not more than the frame cost sometimes) which is what stops us qualifying for tariff free trade on bicycles in all cases regardless of the origin of the base frame. Some other companies will have different tariff applications, because of their supply and bike spec situation. So, without further ado, this is what you can now expect from Cotic:
> 
> ...


So whichever way you look at it, more expensive to buy a bike. Thanks, Brexit!


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

mauvais said:


> An update:
> So whichever way you look at it, more expensive to buy a bike. Thanks, Brexit!


More money for the tax man though, which means that hipsters with expensive bikes can support our NHS.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> They've been privatizing under cover of the pandemic, too, though - test & trace and PPE contracts for their mates for example.



Tbf the PPE contracts aren't really an example of privatisation, in that the NHS would have had to buy the PPE from somewhere.  What they are is an example of corrupt procurement, with contracts being handed out to cronies and Tory donors with no competitive tendering process.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> More money for the tax man though, which means that hipsters with expensive bikes can support our NHS.


Fortunately private cars appear to be a relative bargain at 10% and you get an extra set of wheels thrown in, so perhaps now we can all migrate on to more sensible forms of transportation in line with your goals.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Tbf the PPE contracts aren't really an example of privatisation, in that the NHS would have had to buy the PPE from somewhere.  What they are is an example of corrupt procurement, with contracts being handed out to cronies and Tory donors with no competitive tendering process.


Indeed, I was meaning that the NHS would normally have tendered for the PPE itself, eliminating the profit that went to their tory mates.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> More money for the tax man though, which means that hipsters with expensive bikes can support our NHS.




Bike thieves stimulating the economy


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Indeed, I was meaning that the NHS would normally have tendered for the PPE itself, eliminating the profit that went to their tory mates.



Tbh I'm not sure how the procurement process works in normal times, but there's certainly an issue with a lot of the procurement under the emergency covid regulations.  Obviously a competitive process takes time and I can see an argument for side-stepping it in the circumstances of last spring, but the fact that they've kept on handing out contracts to manifestly unsuitable firms with close connections to ministers does make the whole thing smell very fishy indeed...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> the fact that they've kept on handing out contracts to manifestly unsuitable firms with close connections to ministers does make the whole thing smell very fishy indeed...


To what extent is it actually established that this was a major issue?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> To what extent is it actually established that this was a major issue?



Not was: is.  It's neither more nor less than corruption, and on a large scale.

You know this already, though.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Not was: is.  It's neither more nor less than corruption, and on a large scale.
> 
> You know this already, though.


I've not seen that report before. But I've read its summary document just now.

I don't think its conclusions support a claim that there was corruption on a large scale.

The bit that specifically mentions government ministers passing on leads says:





> Notwithstanding the documentation issues, in the examples we examined where there were potential con icts of interest involving ministers, we found that the ministers had properly declared their interests, and we found no evidence of their involvement in procurement decisions or contract management. The ministerial code and other codes of conduct set out how interests should be managed within an individual department, but not where there are cross-government responsibilities or where procurement is carried out across multiple departments. (paragraphs 3.17 to 3.23, and Figures 9, 10 and 11).


 

There may have been (and probably was) some level of corruption but I've not seen convincing evidence of what scale it was at.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I've not seen that report before. But I've read its summary document just now.
> 
> I don't think its conclusions support a claim that there was corruption on a large scale.
> 
> ...


an industrial scale

how many _billions_ of pounds does it have to be?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I've not seen that report before. But I've read its summary document just now.
> 
> I don't think its conclusions support a claim that there was corruption on a large scale.
> 
> ...



Okay, so billions of pounds siphoned off to the Tories' mates is fine by you.  That's all we needed to know.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Okay, so billions of pounds siphoned off to the Tories' mates is fine by you.  That's all we needed to know.


Billions of pounds? Where is this enumerated? Somewhere other than that NAO report?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> More money for the tax man though, which means that hipsters with expensive bikes can support our NHS.


Well no it isn't the VAT, tariffs and fees will be paid to the tax authorities in the EU not the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Billions of pounds? Where is this enumerated? Somewhere other than that NAO report?


do you think they added a few extra zeroes by mistake?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Except that hes got to keep one eye on the red wall and the proclaimed levelling up agenda if he wants to retain Tory w/class votes


I don't think he does, for all his bulllshit there isn't much to be done to actually level up without unacceptable (to the Tories) levels of public investment. I think a lot of the Labour seats that went Tory at the last election were a one off due to Brexit and will return a Labour MP again in 2024.
I expect the Tories to win again in 2024 but with nothing like the majority they got this time.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think they added a few extra zeroes by mistake?


Who's "they"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Who's "they"?


the nao of course. who else could i be referring to?

why do you want another source?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the nao of course. who else could i be referring to?
> 
> why do you want another source?


Because the NAO have not said what you are pretending they have said.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Billions of pounds? Where is this enumerated? Somewhere other than that NAO report?



Various journalists and others have been onto this for a while, some looking at individual contracts (e.g. here and here) and others at procurement as a whole (e.g. here).  We don't know the full dimensions of the problem, not least because some of the documentation has not even been published, but there's ample evidence both of irregularities in awarding and policing individual contracts, and of a wider disregard for the normal processes of public procurement.  

But, as I said, you know this already.


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 11, 2021)

Heard this in radio this evening. Lords are asking about what took place between Government and EU over ability of musicians to go to EU.

Independent article suggests that UK could not come to a deal over 90 days due to Priti Patel crackdown on immigration. 

Government argue that they were trying to get deal for all business trips not just musicians. 

EU deny that they would not have done a deal about musicians touring. They have a standard deal which for example USA have with EU.

Sounds like this governments obsession with ending anything that smacks of freedom of movement is the problem.









						UK ‘rejected offer’ of visa-free tours by musicians in EU, despite blaming Brussels for permit blow
					

Exclusive: ‘Standard’ proposal to exempt performers for 90 days was proposed, but ‘the UK said no’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## belboid (Jan 11, 2021)

The french have apparently waived this rule, tho I can’t find a link for the second


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Various journalists and others have been onto this for a while, some looking at individual contracts (e.g. here and here) and others at procurement as a whole (e.g. here).  We don't know the full dimensions of the problem, not least because some of the documentation has not even been published, but there's ample evidence both of irregularities in awarding and policing individual contracts, and of a wider disregard for the normal processes of public procurement.
> 
> But, as I said, you know this already.


Yes, I know journalists have been 'looking at it' and I completely believe that there will have been all kinds of screw ups. But I keep seeing mention of this kind of thing like "billions of pounds handed to ministers" mates" mentioned without question. And the fact is that nothing like that has been enumerated. It's all lazy commentary, just like conflating emergency procurement processes with privatisation.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Establishment networking, sleaze and corruption. A handy compendium. £276 million there for one contract









						Establishment networking, sleaze and corruption. A handy compendium.
					

More revelations regarding Kate Bingham  https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1325180546675322880.html




					www.urban75.net
				






> Our challenge to Government’s decision to hide COVID-19 spending has led it to disclose that the Department of Health has handed £17 billion worth of COVID-19 contracts to private companies since April. Fresh analysis by Tussell reveals Government has failed to publish details of £4.4billion of these contracts.



That post gives another £452 million for two contracts - so £728 million for three conservative-linked contracts, billions sounds fairly likely, particularly if they've not published details of £4.4 billion.

That's just a couple of minutes search - worth looking through that thread for confirmation. And I only searched "billions", searching "millions" should bring up a lot more.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 11, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Dan Hannan is a ridiculous individual and I doubt anyone is paying much attention to him.


He’s an adviser to the Board of Trade, Government announces new Board of Trade


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Dutch officials seize ham sandwiches of drivers arriving from UK
					

Personal imports of meat and dairy products into EU banned since Brexit transition ended




					www.theguardian.com
				




Leave our ham sandwiches alone you EU bastards  Impressed they show a picture of ham sandwiches though just in case people don't know what they look like


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Establishment networking, sleaze and corruption. A handy compendium. £276 million there for one contract
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad the good law project is pursuing this stuff, and of course the govt should be transparent in where money is going, and they should be made to make that missing info public, and maybe there is info yet to come out. But I see no evidence of corruption on the scale of billions. The NAO report seems to accept the principle that known contacts were given some priority in bidding and of course that will then be seen in the fact that some of these companies have pre existing connections with people in government. The question then is whether they were then allowed to get away with charging extortionate sums as a result. In other words, did the govt pay well over the odds to these companies, compared to what would have been paid to companies with no connections. My reading of the NAO summary is that no, they did not find evidence of this.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

awww bless


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm glad the good law project is pursuing this stuff, and of course the govt should be transparent in where money is going, and they should be made to make that missing info public, and maybe there is info yet to come out. But I see no evidence of corruption on the scale of billions. The NAO report seems to accept the principle that known contacts were given some priority in bidding and of course that will then be seen in the fact that some of these companies have pre existing connections with people in government. The question then is whether they were then allowed to get away with charging extortionate sums as a result. In other words, did the govt pay well over the odds to these companies, compared to what would have been paid to companies with no connections. My reading of the NAO summary is that no, they did not find evidence of this.


Post 3 in that thread:









						Establishment networking, sleaze and corruption. A handy compendium.
					

I thought it might be an idea to have a thread where people could post links and their thoughts on those who consider themselves our rightful betters and rulers. I think it may be useful to have it all 'under one roof'. Predictably perhaps it will most likely but not soley focus on the vermin...




					www.urban75.net
				




and the thread is stuffed full of them. Count it up. Billions isn't an exaggeration, but of course we can't know the exact amounts because they won't tell us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'm glad the good law project is pursuing this stuff, and of course the govt should be transparent in where money is going, and they should be made to make that missing info public, and maybe there is info yet to come out. But I see no evidence of corruption on the scale of billions. The NAO report seems to accept the principle that known contacts were given some priority in bidding and of course that will then be seen in the fact that some of these companies have pre existing connections with people in government. The question then is whether they were then allowed to get away with charging extortionate sums as a result. In other words, did the govt pay well over the odds to these companies, compared to what would have been paid to companies with no connections. My reading of the NAO summary is that no, they did not find evidence of this.


There are none so blind as those that will not see


----------



## brogdale (Jan 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Dutch officials seize ham sandwiches of drivers arriving from UK
> 
> 
> Personal imports of meat and dairy products into EU banned since Brexit transition ended
> ...


The clip looks a bit like a comedy sketch...


----------



## teuchter (Jan 11, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Post 3 in that thread:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Post 3 covers stuff that is discussed in the NAO report (I assume published subsequently) that I was pointed to earlier.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 11, 2021)

Bastards won't even allow the bread through if they take the meat off


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 11, 2021)

Strange for a country that lets hundreds of tons of coke and smack pass through its ports every year, that a ham sandwich is their line in the sand.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Strange for a country that lets hundreds of tons of coke and smack pass through its ports every year, that a ham sandwich is their line in the sand.


If you'd ever tried to snort a line in the sand you'd know why it's the sort of thing you don't let pass


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you'd ever tried to snort a line in the sand you'd know why it's the sort of thing you don't let pass



Snorted K off a crumbly brick in a warehouse in Bergen op Zoom, would rather have hoovered up a ham sandwich tbf.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 11, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> He’s an adviser to the Board of Trade, Government announces new Board of Trade



That I did not know.  Talk about scraping the barrel.




teuchter said:


> Yes, I know journalists have been 'looking at it' and I completely believe that there will have been all kinds of screw ups. But I keep seeing mention of this kind of thing like "billions of pounds handed to ministers" mates" mentioned without question. And the fact is that nothing like that has been enumerated. It's all lazy commentary, just like conflating emergency procurement processes with privatisation.



I did actually argue directly against that last point, if you remember.  But keep trying. Some day I might bite...


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 11, 2021)

gosub said:


> Lorry drivers heading to EU face ham sandwich ban | Brexit | The Guardian


it has come to pass


----------



## Raheem (Jan 12, 2021)

Bought a CD from Germany on eBay today. £1.47 tax, was not expecting that. Included in the list price, but expected things like CDs to be below some sort of threshold.


----------



## gosub (Jan 12, 2021)

wemakeyousoundb said:


> it has come to pass



Foot and Mouth, UK has been foot and mouth free for several years.  Still, glad to see they are on top of their game, you would not believe the havoc some of these highly contagious viruses can cause


----------



## Raheem (Jan 12, 2021)

gosub said:


> Foot and Mouth, UK has been foot and mouth free for several years.  Still, glad to see they are on top of their game, you would not believe the havoc some of these highly contagious viruses can cause


It's not about preventing foot and mouth. It's ham.


----------



## gosub (Jan 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's not about preventing foot and mouth. It's ham.


From the BBC article to which I was responding 


On its website, the European Commission says the ban is necessary because such goods "continue to present a real threat to animal health throughout the Union".
"It is known, for example, that dangerous pathogens that cause animal diseases such as Foot and Mouth Disease and classical swine fever can reside in meat, milk or their products," the Commission says.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 12, 2021)

gosub said:


> From the BBC article to which I was responding
> 
> 
> On its website, the European Commission says the ban is necessary because such goods "continue to present a real threat to animal health throughout the Union".
> "It is known, for example, that dangerous pathogens that cause animal diseases such as Foot and Mouth Disease and classical swine fever can reside in meat, milk or their products," the Commission says.


Ok, so it's not specifically about foot and mouth. It's about "dangerous pathogens". We've had the same rules with Ireland for decades.


----------



## gosub (Jan 12, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Ok, so it's not specifically about foot and mouth. It's about "dangerous pathogens". We've had the same rules with Ireland for decades.



What, like Swine fever? (which they've had very recently in Germany)

I really don't think they are going to be searching vehicles at the Irish border for pork pies.


----------



## andysays (Jan 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> awww bless


I reckon teuchter is still hoping to be awarded the contract to supply toilet door locks for the new mega vaccination centres.

Maybe even the contract to provide cups of tea to the waiting vaccinees...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 12, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Tbh I'm not sure how the procurement process works in normal times, but there's certainly an issue with a lot of the procurement under the emergency covid regulations.  Obviously a competitive process takes time and I can see an argument for side-stepping it in the circumstances of last spring, but the fact that they've kept on handing out contracts to manifestly unsuitable firms with close connections to ministers does make the whole thing smell very fishy indeed...


I know how the procurement process works and have done and won many OJEC tenders. 
It would have taken too long. They had to use allowable emergency procurement measures. This did not mean they had to allow pals to get the contracts. That was purposeful.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 12, 2021)

Meanwhile in the workers paradise


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Meanwhile in the workers paradise
> 
> View attachment 248465


Perhaps it's in someone's garage or shed


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 12, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps it's in someone's garage or shed


Or found another house


----------



## Anju (Jan 12, 2021)

Another one for the win column. 









						'Loophole' will let UK continue to ship plastic waste to poorer countries
					

Post-Brexit regulation doesn’t match new EU rules to tackle ocean pollution, despite UK being Europe’s largest plastic waste producer




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 12, 2021)

Another one for the "we hold all the cards"  file



North East fishing communities will be gutted and the whole industry destroyed in the next few years. Common responses:

1. There isn't the demand for fish domestically which is why the catch is exported; it's not as simple as saying "sell it to Morrison's instead then".
2. Catastrophic sloppiness in regulatory preparations mean that the prices of fish have collapsed by 80% in some cases, meaning that boats simply won;t go out, as they are unable to cover costs.
3. Smug London-dwelling FBPE types stating _"Fishing voted Brexit so ner ner I don't care"_. Whilst there were very noisy "industry leaders" gleefully in favour of Brexit who since have  disappeared mysteriously, many fishing people were opposed.

1/3 of the fleet is already tied up as it is uneconomic to put to sea. The processing side (Fraserburgh is the biggest white fish processor in Europe) will be destroyed.

Only the swivel eyed loons who are committed to Brexit just because, well they are, and for no other reason, will see any upside to this. And even they, having used the fishing industry as a touchstone for Brexit, have since scuttled up the drainpipe like rats, confronted with this.


----------



## Winot (Jan 12, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Another one for the "we hold all the cards"  file
> 
> 
> 
> ...




They should dump some rotting fish on the steps of 10 Downing St.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 12, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Another one for the "we hold all the cards"  file
> 
> 
> 
> ...



was wondering why landing in Denmark....answer is " If boats fish in UK waters, but land in Denmark, processors here are cut out of trade. If this becomes a new pattern, its a huge concern for processors here. Fish landed in Denmark (trucked to France/Spain) is traded within single market, so avoids a lot of Brexit bureaucracy "

Speculation here but another thing about landing in Denmark is its going to be impossible/undesirable for small indie boats to do that, but something bigger boats/trawlers can do.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 12, 2021)

The crowing by FBPE types over this ham sandwich nonsense is just pathetic. "Welcome to Brexit", my fucking arse. Nothing has really changed except a bunch of bureaucratic bullshit. It's petty and performative.


----------



## moochedit (Jan 12, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The crowing by FBPE types over this ham sandwich nonsense is just pathetic. "Welcome to Brexit", my fucking arse. Nothing has really changed except a bunch of bureaucratic bullshit. It's petty and performative.



Click bait headlines innit. (For both leavers and remainers)

 If you ever watch the "Aussie customs" show they are really shit hot about any kind of food in your bag over there. Think the Americans are the same.

Never sure why people take food with them when going abroad. I never do.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jan 12, 2021)

Was listening to R4 yesterday and the whole Spain holiday home idea seems to be hugely affected. Because there is a limit on staying there ( 90 days in any 180-day period)  if you're not a resident it's going to really put people off buying 2nd homes there. Perhaps this is a good thing since much of Spain's coast has been spoilt with over development but I can see this affecting France and Italy too where they have benefited from Brits restoring old properties.


----------



## NoXion (Jan 12, 2021)

moochedit said:


> Click bait headlines innit. (For both leavers and remainers)
> 
> If you ever watch the "Aussie customs" show they are really shit hot about any kind of food in your bag over there. Think the Americans are the same.
> 
> Never sure why people take food with them when going abroad. I never do.



My understanding is that Australian customs are like that because they want to protect their unique and vulnerable ecology.

Not sure what kind of threat someone's lunch is, coming from an ecosystem that has long been intertwined. Do nefarious ham smugglers operating the Brussels pipeline have a reputation for disguising themselves as truck drivers?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 12, 2021)

We apply the same to e.g. US air passengers, we are just less serious about it in general than Australia.

This latest development is what happens when a thick-as-confiscated-shit government doesn't bother to do any fucking preparation and thinks they can wing a deal at the last minute. Turns out stuff gets missed. No agreement, no entry, what do you expect? Benevolence?


----------



## NoXion (Jan 12, 2021)

Air passengers get told to dump their food and drink because airports and airlines want to force people to pay over the odds for their own shitty provisions. I thought this was common knowledge? They say it's for security, but that's bullshit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 12, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Was listening to R4 yesterday and the whole Spain holiday home idea seems to be hugely affected. Because there is a limit on staying there ( 90 days in any 180-day period)  if you're not a resident it's going to really put people off buying 2nd homes there. Perhaps this is a good thing since much of Spain's coast has been spoilt with over development but I can see this affecting France and Italy too where they have benefited from Brits restoring old properties.


First of all there is room for EU states to set their own rules for example in Portugal they are considering 180 day visa free stay . Where they don’t people who want to stay longer than 90days will simply apply for residency .


----------



## Gramsci (Jan 12, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Was listening to R4 yesterday and the whole Spain holiday home idea seems to be hugely affected. Because there is a limit on staying there ( 90 days in any 180-day period)  if you're not a resident it's going to really put people off buying 2nd homes there. Perhaps this is a good thing since much of Spain's coast has been spoilt with over development but I can see this affecting France and Italy too where they have benefited from Brits restoring old properties.



I heard that report on radio.

One British women, an English teacher, had been working in Spain for years. Married to a Spanish man. Her children born there.She reckoned the children had dual citizenship. Problem for them is that if they decide to move to UK in future her Spanish husband will be caught in the minimum income requirements that this country post Brexit require. He is builder so does not earn enough.

People with these kind of relationships across EU might be a minority but for them Brexit is not a progressive step forward.

Ending Freedom of movement has real effects on ordinary people . Even if they are a minority.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 12, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Was listening to R4 yesterday and the whole Spain holiday home idea seems to be hugely affected. Because there is a limit on staying there ( 90 days in any 180-day period)  if you're not a resident it's going to really put people off buying 2nd homes there. Perhaps this is a good thing since much of Spain's coast has been spoilt with over development but I can see this affecting France and Italy too where they have benefited from Brits restoring old properties.


Second home ownership isn't something to be encouraged to be fair.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 12, 2021)

Oh no what will the poor European property market do without the can-do spirit of enterprising British buyers who aren't afraid to get their hands dirty and fix up one of those old palaces which the locals _can't be bothered _to maintain properly. Nobody wants to live there in winter anyway, it's a shit hole. Rather be in Surrey.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 12, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> Was listening to R4 yesterday and the whole Spain holiday home idea seems to be hugely affected. Because there is a limit on staying there ( 90 days in any 180-day period)  if you're not a resident it's going to really put people off buying 2nd homes there. Perhaps this is a good thing since much of Spain's coast has been spoilt with over development but I can see this affecting France and Italy too where they have benefited from Brits restoring old properties.



Like how Londoners have benefitted from Russians and Qataris 'restoring' all the unfashionable postcodes they used to live in.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2021)

Great shame the UK is missing out on this initiative





> Insects have come closer to becoming a staple in European diets after the EU's food safety agency deemed the yellow mealworm safe for human consumption. The European Food Safety Authority said on Wednesday that based on an application from French insect farmer Micronutris — the first European company focused on insects for human consumption — there were no safety concerns for dried yellow mealworm. The creature is the larval form of the mealworm beetle.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 13, 2021)

Yeah, that’ll really work.

_“As a party we are committed to re-imposing AC Grayling’s view of the world and restoring him to his rightful place in society. Yes, we are led by a war criminal and mass murderer, but haven’t we put all that behind us now...” _


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Yeah, that’ll really work.



I have emailed Tony Blair pointing out that he can still achieve his aim if he joins whatever party Nigel farage has now and actively campaigns for whatever rubbish NF is on about now


----------



## TopCat (Jan 13, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Yeah, that’ll really work.
> 
> _“As a party we are committed to re-imposing AC Grayling’s view of the world and restoring him to his rightful place in society. Yes, we are led by a war criminal and mass murderer, but haven’t we put all that behind us now...” _



Oh my


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 13, 2021)

Kiss. Of. Death.


----------



## moochedit (Jan 13, 2021)

Gramsci said:


> I heard that report on radio.
> 
> One British women, an English teacher, had been working in Spain for years. Married to a Spanish man. Her children born there.She reckoned the children had dual citizenship. Problem for them is that if they decide to move to UK in future her Spanish husband will be caught in the minimum income requirements that this country post Brexit require. He is builder so does not earn enough.
> 
> ...



The income limit for foreign partners is about 18k isn't it? Would have thought a builder earns more than that?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 13, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Yeah, that’ll really work.
> 
> _“As a party we are committed to re-imposing AC Grayling’s view of the world and restoring him to his rightful place in society. Yes, we are led by a war criminal and mass murderer, but haven’t we put all that behind us now...” _



Have the Lib Dems given up being that, then?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 13, 2021)

moochedit said:


> The income limit for foreign partners is about 18k isn't it? Would have thought a builder earns more than that?


What he earns or potentially earns isn't relevant. She would have to find a job earning more than £18K in order to apply for permission to bring him here.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2021)

moochedit said:


> The income limit for foreign partners is about 18k isn't it? Would have thought a builder earns more than that?


Maybe one year maybe not another


----------



## ska invita (Jan 13, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> Yeah, that’ll really work.
> 
> _“As a party we are committed to re-imposing AC Grayling’s view of the world and restoring him to his rightful place in society. Yes, we are led by a war criminal and mass murderer, but haven’t we put all that behind us now...” _



a useful project i would say, in a Golgafrinchan Ark Fleet Ship B fashion


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 13, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What he earns or potentially earns isn't relevant. She would have to find a job earning more than £18K in order to apply for permission to bring him here.




Whilst there are clearly many disagreeable sides to Brexit, asking people spending >3 months at a time in a country, or in this country to take part in some kind of registration scheme doesn't seem unreasonable, nor does asking people moving permanently to be able to provide the bare bones of financial support to themselves.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 13, 2021)

So the UK has at least adjusted to the EU norms ...

I'm back to being fairly certain that I will still be applying for residency in France as a retiree and for non-EU citizens they demand minimum wage (SMIC) plus full health insurance plus a promise not to do paid work.
SMIC is 18473 euros gross, full health insurance is about £4k a year (eek) - not sure if that includes the 1K top-up insurance most French people go for...
EDIT:- I assume it's not SMIC PLUS health insurance. Basically after 3 months you have to demonstrate that income covered your outgoings...

French Income tax is 14 percent with a personal allowance of 9964 PA, social charges are 9.1 percent on 97 percent of pension income.

I sincerely hope I will eventually have the option to pay the French state for my healthcare instead of a private insurance company.

For EU citizens it's only £550 a month so you could actually do it on a UK state pension ...


----------



## moochedit (Jan 13, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What he earns or potentially earns isn't relevant. She would have to find a job earning more than £18K in order to apply for permission to bring him here.



Just googled and 18k is combined income of both partners but there are extra amounts added to that for dependent children.

But as Pickman's model says, builders are normally self employed so their income is not guarenteed which i guess would cause problems as they probably require a "job offer" letter.



Pickman's model said:


> Maybe one year maybe not another


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 13, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> So the UK has at least adjusted to the EU norms ...
> 
> I'm back to being fairly certain that I will still be applying for residency in France as a retiree and for non-EU citizens they demand minimum wage (SMIC) plus full health insurance plus a promise not to do paid work.
> SMIC is 18473 euros gross, full health insurance is about £4k a year (eek) - not sure if that includes the 1K top-up insurance most French people go for...
> ...


How easy is it to get residency , not citizenship, in France ? Presumably that would give you access to French health care ?


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How easy is it to get residency , not citizenship, in France ? Presumably that would give you access to French health care ?


By all accounts you have to take the gamble, put your stuff in store and sell your home in the UK, rent somewhere for 3 months and prove you aren't a burden ... naturalisation is 5 years and far from guaranteed.

I'm getting confused about the social charges now ...  Maybe that DOES give health cover - in which case it's half the cost of private insurance on my modest pension ...

Hopefully it will become clearer nearer the time - it's at least 2 years away ...

In my case, should residency fail, I would be heading towards Swansea ...


----------



## Badgers (Jan 13, 2021)

At the fish thing is sorted


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Air passengers get told to dump their food and drink because airports and airlines want to force people to pay over the odds for their own shitty provisions. I thought this was common knowledge? They say it's for security, but that's bullshit.


The world we have lost - back in the 90s I got to Hamburg airport 15 mins before a flight to London was going, got a ticket, got through security and onto the flight. Never happen now. And as you say any food or drink I'd brought with me would have been binned.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 13, 2021)

> Fishing minister Victoria Prentis, appearing before a House of Lords committee, admitted “things are tricky at the moment” but said her team is “working hard” to resolve issues as they arose.
> 
> During her appearance Ms Prentis raised eyebrows by telling peers she did not read the fisheries deal when it was published on Christmas Eve because she was “very busy organising the local Nativity trail”.











						Evening Express The Press and Journal combined
					

About the new Press and Journal and Evening Express combined website Our newspapers Press and Journal subscribers Evening Express subscribers Evening




					www.eveningexpress.co.uk


----------



## extra dry (Jan 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> What, like Swine fever? (which they've had very recently in Germany)
> 
> I really don't think they are going to be searching vehicles at the Irish border for pork pies.


The gov will have a dog trained to do that work, porkpie sniffer


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> At the fish thing is sorted




Also:


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

Lochfyne were big supporters of Leave and are now blaming it on a lack of preparation by a "Remain establishment" who tried to "thwart Brexit", so...


----------



## moochedit (Jan 14, 2021)

extra dry said:


> The gov will have a dog trained to do that work, porkpie sniffer



Not sure dogs need any training to snif out meat products.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 14, 2021)

We should have got these monkeys to negotiate Brexit for us , they would have done  a far better job of the deal by the sound of it than the idiots in charge...

Nice phone: Bali’s thieving monkeys can spot high-value items to ransom


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Lochfyne were big supporters of Leave and are now blaming it on a lack of preparation by a "Remain establishment" who tried to "thwart Brexit", so...



That's pretty much the Fishing for Leave line atm:



Well, along with retweeting Express journalists and Nigel Farage.  

I can't help wondering how much more prominent this would be in the headlines were it not for the pandemic and America's political nervous breakdown...


----------



## MrSki (Jan 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Evening Express The Press and Journal combined
> 
> 
> About the new Press and Journal and Evening Express combined website Our newspapers Press and Journal subscribers Evening Express subscribers Evening
> ...



She seems to think it is amusing.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

moochedit said:


> Never sure why people take food with them when going abroad. I never do.


Airport and plane food is expensive and crap. I bring a packed lunch, never had it taken away before (apart from liquids).


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> That's pretty much the Fishing for Leave line atm:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They did it more explicitly than that:


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

More of the non-expert led outcomes....


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

Meanwhile in the province...dinosaurs (b)regret voting for that asteroid...


----------



## andysays (Jan 14, 2021)

I ordered a new pair of walking boots recently, direct from a German company because the particular style I want appears no longer to be available from British retailers, though other styles from the same maker are.

They appear to be coming from a supplier in the Netherlands, and have been delayed because of complications resulting from Brexit.

This is mildly annoying,  but hasn't caused me to regret my Leave vote.

(not yet anyway; if they still haven't arrived by the end of next week I might feel differently...)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)

They do know whose been in charge for the last 4 years right?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

MrSki said:


> She seems to think it is amusing.



A real Thicky Vicky


----------



## Winot (Jan 14, 2021)

It was completely obvious that elements of the Leave establishment were going to blame Remain for anything that went wrong, just as they blamed the EU for anything that went wrong prior to Brexit.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> To be honest the thought of all nations being more self sufficient in food is environmentally necessary in the long run. Food miles are a huge contributor to co2, not to mention the damage caused by pesticides and so on used to grow them. A massive upswing in organic farming (even using greenhouses to grow hotter weather crops, like the Dutch do so well) would be a good thing long term. Clearly right now the UK does not have very good food security /food sovereignty.


This article provides a dissenting view.









						Everything you thought about the carbon footprint of imported food is wrong, says top professor
					

Bananas from Dominican Republic and apples from New Zealand are among the most carbon-friendly foods




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Basically that as long as you are not air freighting, intensive local farming can have a worse impact than long-range transport.

Agree that NL's agriculture is very impressive and a model to be copied.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2021)

A bit of good news


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 14, 2021)

MrSki said:


> She seems to think it is amusing.




I thought Alice from Dibley had died?


----------



## rubbershoes (Jan 14, 2021)

Winot said:


> It was completely obvious that elements of the Leave establishment were going to blame Remain for anything that went wrong, just as they blamed the EU for anything that went wrong prior to Brexit.



The establishment has always looked down on common people like old Etonions Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson and Jacob Rees-Mogg


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Airport and plane food is expensive and crap. I bring a packed lunch, never had it taken away before (apart from liquids).


But you'd be eating that on the plane surely not bringing it through customs?  If Portugal apply this my days of bringing over pork pies might be finished


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But you'd be eating that on the plane surely not bringing it through customs?  If Portugal apply this my days of bringing over pork pies might be finished


Bring them over in a specially designed smuggling hat


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 14, 2021)

If it's supplying bits that are broken on JLR vehicles it's gonna be a busy place.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great shame the UK is missing out on this initiative



Yellow mealworms were already approved as food in the UK, Denmark, and a few other countries that decided to use a relaxed interpretation of EU directives, though the pro-Brexit press seems to be treating this story as "Now the EU Is Letting WORMS Wriggle Onto Plates!"


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yellow mealworms were already approved as food in the UK, Denmark, and a few other countries that decided to use a relaxed interpretation of EU directives, though the pro-Brexit press seems to be treating this story as "Now the EU Is Letting WORMS Wriggle Onto Plates!"


If ever there was a time for the diet of worms to appear in a headline surely this is it


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Meanwhile in the province...dinosaurs (b)regret voting for that asteroid...
> 
> View attachment 248807


I've never had a high opinion of the intellect of Ian paisley jr


----------



## Smangus (Jan 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> I ordered a new pair of walking boots recently, direct from a German company because the particular style I want appears no longer to be available from British retailers, though other styles from the same maker are.
> 
> They appear to be coming from a supplier in the Netherlands, and have been delayed because of complications resulting from Brexit.
> 
> ...



If you get charged tax, duty and an agents fee you might not like it.


----------



## andysays (Jan 14, 2021)

Smangus said:


> If you get charged tax, duty and an agents fee you might not like it.


I'll keep you updated...


----------



## Flavour (Jan 14, 2021)

Wolveryeti said:


> This article provides a dissenting view.
> 
> Basically that as long as you are not air freighting, intensive local farming can have a worse impact than long-range transport.
> 
> Agree that NL's agriculture is very impressive and a model to be copied.



what article?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> But you'd be eating that on the plane surely not bringing it through customs?  If Portugal apply this my days of bringing over pork pies might be finished



You know they'll extract any that aren't fully digested when you get to customs don't you.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yellow mealworms were already approved as food in the UK, Denmark, and a few other countries that decided to use a relaxed interpretation of EU directives, though the pro-Brexit press seems to be treating this story as "Now the EU Is Letting WORMS Wriggle Onto Plates!"


Good to see the EU levelling up then


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> A bit of good news
> 
> View attachment 248810


What's the link to Brexit?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What's the link to Brexit?


Trade?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

If you actually read the detail of that thing, it's a bit muddier - it's a consolidation of 10 existing warehouses. How many people are employed across those today?









						Huge new Jaguar Land Rover global distribution park progresses
					

Mercia Park said to be the UK’s biggest ever single occupier logistics park creating 1,000s of jobs




					www.leicestermercury.co.uk
				




Edit: the answer is 1,200.









						Jaguar Land Rover reveals plans for giant new parts facility
					

The new 2.9m sq ft ‘logistics campus’ would supply replacement parts to customers across the world




					www.coventrytelegraph.net
				







			
				JLR said:
			
		

> “It is absolutely not Brexit-related. This is a long-term project, which we began work on in early 2016.
> 
> “It is absolutely not short-term Brexit planning, because it is a strategic move.”


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I've never had a high opinion of the intellect of Ian paisley jr


A whole tool-bag of blunt chisels...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A whole tool-bag of blunt chisels...
> 
> View attachment 248843


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Trade?


I suppose if Tata are saying this wouldn't have been built in the UK whilst it was within the single market, then maybe?
Not convinced that an Indian corporation securing a loan to build a (big) shed really is the 'Brexit bonus', tbh.


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> They do know whose been in charge for the last 4 years right?



please be fair. As an exercise in how not to do Brexit the last few years comes across as possibly the mentalist way of doing it, with the alternative narrative path being why are we doing this at all blossoming into I told so.  But its done.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 14, 2021)

TBH those mealworms do look quite tasty


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I suppose if Tata are saying this wouldn't have been built in the UK whilst it was within the single market, then maybe?
> Not convinced that an Indian corporation securing a loan to build a (big) shed really is the 'Brexit bonus', tbh.



To be fair a lot of people have been making the argument that car part manufacturers would leave the country etc so its relevant as a riposte to that, no? And although its a consolidation of an existing operation they're saying there will be 1800 new jobs at some stage. Not that I'm inclined to believe them. 

Of course the general disappearance of manufacturing jobs from the UK is a trend that predates Brexit by decades but there you go, this is the 'discourse'.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 14, 2021)

What the fuck. How much longer do we have to endure this vacuous condescending drivel?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

teqniq said:


> What the fuck. How much longer do we have to endure this vacuous condescending drivel?



Imagine the depths of malevolent narcissism that result in him doing impressions of himself.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 14, 2021)

MrSki said:


> She seems to think it is amusing.



Worth remembering here that fishing is approximately 20 times more important to the Scottish economy than it is to the England/Wales economy. Scottish fishing also largely still Scottish-owned, unlike in England/Wales.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 14, 2021)

Not generally keen on the tired old bus meme format, but..yeah...that's so fucking infantilising...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> please be fair. As an exercise in how not to do Brexit the last few years comes across as possibly the mentalist way of doing it, with the alternative narrative path being why are we doing this at all blossoming into I told so.  But its done.



Brexit has been an utter and total farce but sooner or later the Leave mouthpieces are going to have to actually face up to owning it and taking responsibility. May had the ERG so far up her arse she couldn't finish a cone of chips, Boris has been in charge since 2019's disaster election and throughout the process we've been told it'll be fine.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Worth remembering here that fishing is approximately 20 times more important to the Scottish economy than it is to the England/Wales economy. Scottish fishing also largely still Scottish-owned, unlike in England/Wales.


when you say 20 times more important to the scottish economy, perhaps you might define 'important' - do you mean solely in terms of the money it brings in, the jobs it supports, the number of people it employs...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 14, 2021)

gosub said:


> please be fair. As an exercise in how not to do Brexit the last few years comes across as possibly the mentalist way of doing it, with the alternative narrative path being why are we doing this at all blossoming into I told so.  But its done.


I would say it's very far from done, as the current fiasco demonstrates. Whatever shape Brexit finally takes, it will look different from this. 

It saddens me the way Labour has now accepted the basic skeleton of this brexit, though, including the new restrictions on movement. All too many echoes of 1962. Tories end free movement from the Commonwealth, with the support of quite a few British people who express concerns about foreigners taking their jobs/housing. Labour initially oppose the move in a half-hearted manner, not wishing to upset those who have expressed concerns about foreigners taking their jobs/housing, only to end up endorsing it and indeed hardening its provisions when they come back into power.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit has been an utter and total farce but sooner or later the Leave mouthpieces are going to have to actually face up to owning it and taking responsibility. May had the ERG so far up her arse she couldn't finish a cone of chips, Boris has been in charge since 2019's disaster election and throughout the process we've been told it'll be fine.


to be fair to the erg, may could never finish a cone of chips


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would say it's very far from done, as the current fiasco demonstrates. Whatever shape Brexit finally takes, it will look different from this.
> 
> It saddens me the way Labour has now accepted the basic skeleton of this brexit, though, including the new restrictions on movement. All too many echoes of 1962. Tories end free movement from the Commonwealth, with the support of quite a few British people who express concerns about foreigners taking their jobs/housing. Labour initially oppose the move in a half-hearted manner, not wishing to upset those who have expressed concerns about foreigners taking their jobs/housing, only to end up endorsing it and indeed hardening its provisions when they come back into power.


so voting for the trade agreement is to your mind simply accepting the basic skeleton of the brexit. that's really rather more than accepting the basic skeleton, that's scoffing down the entire corpse. they have associated themselves with the whole of the tory plan. so please - _please_ stop deluding yourself that they have only accepted the basic skeleton, the broad thrust, of this brexit when they have been - especially under starmer - so very, very keen to avoid in any way saying 'we're not going along with this'


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit has been an utter and total farce but sooner or later the Leave mouthpieces are going to have to actually face up to owning it and taking responsibility. May had the ERG so far up her arse she couldn't finish a cone of chips, Boris has been in charge since 2019's disaster election and throughout the process we've been told it'll be fine.



Not disagreeing. 
Lessons I didn't think needed learning include government leafleting the country telling people there were 3 types of Brexit then ignoring that in favour of one outlined only by colour scheme, sacking the the UK Ambassador to the EU a week after Brexit, Triggering Article 50 without consulting on what they were aiming for, calling an election - getting result that deadlocked Parliament then taking least bi-partisan approach....I could go on (it did) but there's no point


----------



## rubbershoes (Jan 14, 2021)

Smangus said:


> If you get charged tax, duty and an agents fee you might not like it.



The tax is only if they're above a certain amount. I think it's about £250


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> They did it more explicitly than that:




Oh aye, and I spotted earlier they've also decided to get into an argument with a professor of international law who specialises in fisheries, which is only going to end one way...


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 14, 2021)

.


----------



## editor (Jan 14, 2021)

Ooops.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Ooops.
> 
> View attachment 248890


worth listening to the video


says going to start dumping fish outside parliament


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)

Ooh, free fish


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Ooh, free fish


free and happy


----------



## Smangus (Jan 14, 2021)

Amazing the barriers to trade that that are thrown up against you once you leave  a single market with a free trade agreement, who'd a thunk it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> free and happy



And British


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> ska invita said:
> 
> 
> > worth listening to the video
> ...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> They do know whose been in charge for the last 4 years right?



Apparently not.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

good overview of the range of issues effecting traders


			Bloomberg - Are you a robot?


----------



## Supine (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> And British



I'm sure that makes them proud


----------



## teuchter (Jan 14, 2021)

I am interested in this sign in the background of the video.



I wonder what the back story to that is. A bit of googling suggests recent prohibitions on landing berried (carrying eggs) or crippled (missing claws) lobsters in the UK. But are they allowed to, if they sell them to EU countries with fewer regulations?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> I'm sure that makes them proud



Last time I opened a Birdseye fish it gave me a wink and waved a little tiny English flag at me and said “I’m backing Boris”


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Last time I opened a Birdseye fish it gave me a wink and waved a little tiny English flag at me and said “I’m backing Boris”



That's nothing.  Last time I opened a can of mackerel they all got out and sang Rule Britannia.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> That's nothing.  Last time I opened a can of mackerel they all got out and sang Rule Britannia.


No way. They must have been Kipers.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 14, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I am interested in this sign in the background of the video.
> 
> View attachment 248908
> 
> I wonder what the back story to that is. A bit of googling suggests recent prohibitions on landing berried (carrying eggs) or crippled (missing claws) lobsters in the UK. But are they allowed to, if they sell them to EU countries with fewer regulations?


. 


EU tech reg post dates the internal Brit Berried regs. Technically yes but it’s a twats trick to sell them


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 14, 2021)




----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> what article?


Sorry- forgot to add link - this one:









						Everything you thought about the carbon footprint of imported food is wrong, says top professor
					

Bananas from Dominican Republic and apples from New Zealand are among the most carbon-friendly foods




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

NFFO statement on what they're now calling a 'mounting crisis' in the fishing industry.



> With exports of fish and shellfish into the EU impeded by a range of border issues, Defra has formed a new stakeholder group to address the mounting crisis. The group containing fish exporters and representative bodies from the fish sector will meet twice weekly and feed conclusions up to the top of government. Delays of up to 96 hours have been encountered at the border. Such delays are is obviously fatal to the business of selling a perishable commodity like fresh fish and live shellfish. The failure to eradicate obstacles at the border has implications for everyone in the supply chain from fishing vessels facing a fall in first-sale prices, to upmarket restaurants in Paris and Madrid who are being denied access to the high-quality fresh fish and shellfish that their reputations have been built on.



I really don't envy the poor sods from Defra who've got to sit on that stakeholder group, especially since they're going to have to explain that they can iron out all the short-term obstacles there are, but it's still going to be slower to get the fish to where they can sell it, so it's going to be that much less fresh and therefore that much less valuable.  The last sentence of that statement is hilarious, though; as if some people still haven't given up on the whole 'German car makers' fantasy.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 14, 2021)

A car won't go off if it's sat on the dock for a couple of extra days due to paperwork. Fish does, a lot of British fishermen are going to lose their jobs over the next few months and there really isn't anything anyone can to do to stop it.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> NFFO statement on what they're now calling a 'mounting crisis' in the fishing industry.


"This mounting crisis in the export of fish and shellfish highlights the anomaly through which the UK has unilaterally provided a six-month period of grace for imports to the UK. Whilst EU products face frictionless trade, our exports hit a range of non-tariff barriers which have paralysed our export trade. There is an obvious case for parity as the various border issues are sorted out."

Seems a bit weird that the grace period is one way, also seems clear thats the short term solution, to ask very very nicely for the same....though would that just be putting off the inevitable?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> worth listening to the video
> 
> 
> says going to start dumping fish outside parliament



Not sell them at Billingsgate then?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not sell them at Billingsgate then?



To whom?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> To whom?


You are being a disingenuous arse if you are suggesting premium scottish live shellfish would not sell at Billingsgate.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

ive no idea topcat, only answer i found on twitter was this



i expect the fishers will be trying anything and everything - im sure they're not holding back from selling it to make a point


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2021)

according to their website they do supply the UK - seems unlikely that they can just dump a load of extra langoustines on the market and expect them to sell, especially with all the restaurants closed.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You are being a disingenuous arse if you are suggesting premium scottish live shellfish would not sell at Billingsgate.


I think the point is that they do.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You are being a disingenuous arse if you are suggesting premium scottish live shellfish would not sell at Billingsgate.



Of course it would - and does -  but not in anywhere near the quantity or at anywhere near the price it has done up til now, so it won't be worth at least some of the catchers' and processors' while to deal with it.

But if you want to be narky about it, are you ready to admit you were wrong yet?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Of course it would - and does -  but not in anywhere near the quantity or at anywhere near the price it has done up til now, so it won't be worth at least some of the catchers' and processors' while to deal with it.
> 
> But if you want to be narky about it, are you ready to admit you were wrong yet?


So it would sell and no doubt would sell out. But it would be for less cash than the French would pay hence less profit.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

If they wont sell it here leave it in the fucking sea.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So it would sell and no doubt would sell out. But it would be for less cash than the French would pay hence less profit.



You can make anything sell out if you drop the price low enough.  Problem is, dropping the price to the point where they could sell all the languostines wouldn't cover the fuel, overheads, never mind an income for the crews.  They're fucked.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If they wont sell it here leave it in the fucking sea.



Great. But if it's in the sea it's not in a fisherman's wage packet.  You claimed to care so much about the fishermen - why the change of heart?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If they wont sell it here leave it in the fucking sea.


They will be doing soon enough


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2021)

I can't see anything happening in the next week that avoids a truckload of rotting langoustines being dumped outside downing street. Looking forward to that.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 14, 2021)

"What's all this got to do with the price of fish?"


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> They will be doing soon enough


It's about profit only then, not feeding the UK.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> "What's all this got to do with the price of fish?"


Everything!


----------



## Smangus (Jan 14, 2021)

Teething troubles dear boy, teething troubles...


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It's about profit only then, not feeding the UK.


_let them eat langoustines?_


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> _let them eat langoustines?_


When I want lagustine I get scottish ones that have been exported to Spain and reimported, frozen. It's rare to get them off of my fish supplier. He says they rarely reach Billingsgate market.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

We just get the Coley...


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It's about profit only then, not feeding the UK.


What's wrong with that? boats and trucks require fuel and maintenance, fishermen and truckers need paying. They can't be expected to do it out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm sure they have families to support.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It's about profit only then, not feeding the UK.


Fishing isnt subsidised.

This could be a serious crisis here: if nothing happens quickly sounds as if it could see a collapse in Scottish fishing businesses, which in turn would I expect, mean indieref2 signed and sealed in Scottish consciousness. Tory polling in Scotland is already dropping day by day supposedly.

There is talk of possible "compensation" from government, but I just can't see if happening on a meaningful, endless scale


----------



## Supine (Jan 14, 2021)

Show hand clasp


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What's wrong with that? boats and trucks require fuel and maintenance, fishermen and truckers need paying. They can't be expected to do it out of the goodness of their hearts. I'm sure they have families to support.


Is the price they would get for a kilo of shellfish that different in France anyway compared to the UK? Minus the ridiculous transport costs?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Fishing isnt subsidised.
> 
> This could be a serious crisis here: if nothing happens quickly sounds as if it could see a collapse in Scottish fishing businesses, which in turn would I expect, mean indieref2 signed and sealed in Scottish consciousness. Tory polling in Scotland is already dropping day by day supposedly.
> 
> There is talk of possible "compensation" from government, but I just can't see if happening on a meaningful, endless scale



It's not just Scotland.  The south-west is in exactly the same situation.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> Show hand clasp



Standard-setting, newspeak cunts


----------



## Supine (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is the price they would get for a kilo of shellfish that different in France anyway compared to the UK? Minus the ridiculous transport costs?



Selling fish abroad is a wealth creation activity while selling it in the UK only moves money around the economy. So UK will be less well off. Plus there is no secret stash of UK buyers ready to step in and buy it all.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> Show hand clasp




I suppose if I was a lexit bed-wetter I'd be surprised by this....


----------



## Raheem (Jan 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I can't see anything happening in the next week that avoids a truckload of rotting langoustines being dumped outside downing street. Looking forward to that.


Targeted lockdown enforcement?


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is the price they would get for a kilo of shellfish that different in France anyway compared to the UK? Minus the ridiculous transport costs?


I would imagine it has to sell for more in France than in the UK. It costs the same to catch it no matter where it goes but clearly shipping it to Europe is going to be more expensive than shipping it to just London. But you're missing the point, I have no idea what proportion of the population like shellfish (I don't) but the population of the EU is roughly 7 times the size of the UK. No matter how much you cut the cost (and there is ultimately a floor) then the UK simply isn't going to be a big enough market for all the shellfish that once went to the EU.
They might sell a bit more but nowhere the amount they did before ergo less will be caught and there will be fewer jobs for fishermen, for the people processing it and the truckers taking it to market.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Standard-setting, newspeak cunts
> View attachment 248963


If you believe that I have some magic beans to sell you.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> Selling fish abroad is a wealth creation activity while selling it in the UK only moves money around the economy. So UK will be less well off. Plus there is no secret stash of UK buyers ready to step in and buy it all.


Remainers For Global Capitalism. You could get Blair to head that up. Certainly get Swinson.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I would imagine it has to sell for more in France than in the UK. It costs the same to catch it no matter where it goes but clearly shipping it to Europe is going to be more expensive than shipping it to just London. But you're missing the point, I have no idea what proportion of the population like shellfish (I don't) but the population of the EU is roughly 7 times the size of the UK. No matter how much you cut the cost (and there is ultimately a floor) then the UK simply isn't going to be a big enough market for all the shellfish that once went to the EU.
> They might sell a bit more but nowhere the amount they did before ergo less will be caught and there will be fewer jobs for fishermen, for the people processing it and the truckers taking it to market.


It might, presumably, be possible to scale up processing so that less easily perishable products can be sold to the EU. But not overnight, and not without sacrificing profits.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I can't see anything happening in the next week that avoids a truckload of rotting langoustines being dumped outside downing street. Looking forward to that.



The truckload of rotting langoustines would probably be given a senior position in government. And it'd still be the least corrupt thing in the building.

I'm here all week folks, try the scampi.


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Remainers For Capitalism. You could get Blair to head that up. Certainly get Swinson.


I'd be up for nationalising the Scottish shellfish market and delivering a daily box of the people's langoustines to every family in the country whether they want 'em or not, but until that glorious day arrives what are they going to do with the fish that no-one wants to buy or eat here?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Remainers For Capitalism. You could get Blair to head that up. Certainly get Swinson.



Leavers were/are for capitalism too - well, except those so naive as to think a leave vote would hasten in the revolution.  It was - and is - just a matter of how you like your shit sandwich, and to me the turd in the 'out' sandwich looked bigger, sludgier and smellier than the 'in' one.  I wasn't wrong.  But no matter: now you, me and everyone else has no alternative but to eat it.


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Wh
> 
> 
> SpookyFrank said:
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'd be up for nationalising the Scottish shellfish market and delivering a daily box of the people's langoustines to every family in the country whether they want 'em or not, but until that glorious day arrives what are they going to do with the fish that no-one wants to buy or eat here?


Any evidence that no one wants to buy or eat Scottish shell fish in the UK?


----------



## Supine (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Remainers For Global Capitalism. You could get Blair to head that up. Certainly get Swinson.



Leavers for the working class losing jobs. Lexit gone wrong.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 14, 2021)

Of course they left it out of the agreement


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

Who could possibly have predicted this?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

One big shed instead of ten little ones though, so it's not all bad.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any evidence that no one wants to buy or eat Scottish shell fish in the UK?



Well, you could start by looking at the prices at Peterhead market in the last few days...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Who could possibly have predicted this?



Pippa Crerar? She seems to know what whoever is PM in 11 months will say.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 14, 2021)

Can't really blame her for not knowing what year it is.

(in case of confusion, it is a quote from December 2020)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Well, you could start by looking at the prices at Peterhead market in the last few days...


The prices were down. All the fish sold.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The prices were down. All the fish sold.



A perfectly efficient market.  Shame the boats are tying up because the prices they're getting for the fish don't pay the costs of catching it...

Bed-wetter territory again.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Well, you could start by looking at the prices at





Roadkill said:


> You can make anything sell out if you drop the price low enough.  Problem is, dropping the price to the point where they could sell all the languostines wouldn't cover the fuel, overheads, never mind an income for the crews.  They're fucked.


Any evidence to show selling in the UK would be uneconomic or just less profitable?

You all probably realise by now that the fish brokers are not the people in the UK fishing industry who I admire.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> A perfectly efficient market.  Shame the boats are tying up because the prices they're getting for the fish don't pay the costs of catching it...
> 
> Bed-wetter territory again.


Any evidence? (not for bed wetting).


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I can't see anything happening in the next week that avoids a truckload of rotting langoustines being dumped outside downing street. Looking forward to that.





i hope they take some fresh fish for larry...


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat Just watch the news: how much more evidence do you need?


----------



## killer b (Jan 14, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i hope they take some fresh fish for larry...


fuck larry.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any evidence to show selling in the UK would be uneconomic or just less profitable?
> 
> You all probably realise by now that the fish brokers are not the people in the UK fishing industry who I admire.



It's obvious, isn't it?  The UK is a fraction of the EU market, so trying to sell the same (ish) quantity of fish into it is going to end up in lower prices, so less money to pay the boats' expenses, and less money to pay the crews' wages.  The brokers are a side issue.

If you need this explained to you it's too late.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 14, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> TopCat Just watch the news: how much more evidence do you need?



newsnight main story at 10.45 btw


----------



## Lurdan (Jan 14, 2021)

The online version of that FT article (archived) - little easier to read
UK workers’ rights at risk in plans to rip up EU labour market rules - Financial Times



> The main areas of focus are on ending the 48-hour working week, tweaking the rules around rest breaks at work and not including overtime pay when calculating some holiday pay entitlements, according to people familiar with the plans. The government also wants to remove the requirement of businesses to log the detailed, daily reporting of working hours, saving an estimated £1bn. (...)





> A change in the calculation of holiday pay could be “a significant monetary loss” for a low paid worker often forced into overtime to make ends meet, the TUC official said. (...)





> Colin Leckey, partner in employment law at Lewis Silkin, said employers would welcome the UK rejecting new European case law requiring the detailed, daily reporting of working hours. (...) Unions have brought a series of cases on the underpayment of holiday entitlements and employers would love to see them overturned, Mr Leckey said.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If they wont sell it here leave it in the fucking sea.


Almost certainly would be for the best for Scotland's seas in the long term. Obviously folk whose entire livelihoods depend on it will see things differently.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 15, 2021)

Lurdan said:


> The online version of that FT article (archived) - little easier to read
> UK workers’ rights at risk in plans to rip up EU labour market rules - Financial Times


I've been expecting this shit, but they're out of the blocks quickly, aren't they? It took two weeks.


----------



## contadino (Jan 15, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> If you need this explained to you it's too late.



Regardless, it is too late.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've been expecting this shit, but they're out of the blocks quickly, aren't they? It took two weeks.



I see from this morning's Graun that they're denying it, so expect it to happen next week.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Horse riders have 'no deal' Brexit, stable owner claims
					

Rachael Williams, from East Yorkshire, says delays mean her horses cannot compete in European events.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Horse riders have 'no deal' Brexit, stable owner claims
> 
> 
> Rachael Williams, from East Yorkshire, says delays mean her horses cannot compete in European events.
> ...



Maybe they should just race them around the local park then?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Maybe they should just race them around the local park then?


I'm humbled by the problems highlighted.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 15, 2021)

An account of 'Project here' for Polish lorry drivers....


----------



## ska invita (Jan 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A whole tool-bag of blunt chisels...
> 
> View attachment 248843





Pickman's model said:


>



one was not enough






brogdale said:


> An account of 'Project here' for Polish lorry drivers....



....and this while trucking capacity is at around 20% of usual levels


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I suppose if Tata are saying this wouldn't have been built in the UK whilst it was within the single market, then maybe?
> Not convinced that an Indian corporation securing a loan to build a (big) shed really is the 'Brexit bonus', tbh.


It's a bonus for them when they shut up shop, tweet "Tata for now", and walk off with the loan


----------



## tommers (Jan 15, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Who could possibly have predicted this?



It's a real shock.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 15, 2021)

So presumably the Lexiteers have plenty of cards to play in the years ahead as the EWTD is unravelled together with a roll back of breaks and holidays?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> So presumably the Lexiteers have plenty of cards to play in the years ahead as the EWTD is unravelled together with a roll back of breaks and holidays?


You think this will take years?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 15, 2021)

Bregret from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation:



> There is huge disappointment and a great deal of anger about your failure to deliver on promises made repeatedly to this industry. We will have another chance to revisit this in 2026, so there is much to do between now and then to prepare the ground for that. But for now, the priorities must be your government securing enough fish though the talks currently taking place with the EU and Norway for 2021 to, as a minimum, bridge the gap that your deal failed to, and acting immediately to stem the losses that are mounting up and compensate those businesses already affected.
> 
> Your sincerely
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

editor said:


> View attachment 249111


isn't the union flag upside down a sign of distress?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Maybe they should just race them around the local park then?


or indeed the local or nearest racetrack


----------



## ska invita (Jan 15, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Bregret from the Scottish Fishermen's Federation:



SFF partly to blame here suggest Faisal " Scottish fisherman were always split between the ones seeing and wanting to grab the opportunity of lots more quota and those needing frictionless access for the most perishable of exports - but SFF were leading lights of former group... " <suggests a massive oversight if true.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Of course they left it out of the agreement




Seems to be a lot of outrage about this on Twitter whipped up by hack journalists on this. Worth remembering there is no 48 hour working week in practice and never has been. 

I've had multiple jobs where I was made to sign a waiver of the right to a 48 hour work week at interview and told I wouldn't get the job if I didn't. Hilariously I was never actually asked to work more than 48 hours a week at any of them, it was just company policy to ask people to sign away their rights. The entire NHS, possibly the biggest single employer in the UK these days, is exempt from this 'protection'. 

I'm not saying this purely for the sake of the argument - honestly! The Tories have been attacking workers rights for the last decade and they will continue to do so. We need to talk seriously about how they do that and how we respond. But we do also need to be realistic about what rights we have in practice and what rights the Tories are likely to attack.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 15, 2021)

editor said:


> View attachment 249111



Brian Silvester is the bloke who wrote to David Cameron blaming gay marriage for storms and flooding, isn't he?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> or indeed the local or nearest racetrack



Why do you hate Brexit, and indeed Britain?

We left the EU for freedom.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We left the EU for freedom.


i never realised that venerable journal exerted so much influence on the nation


----------



## teuchter (Jan 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Why do you hate Brexit, and indeed Britain?


Both of them are rubbish


----------



## teqniq (Jan 15, 2021)

At a loss as to where exactly to put this but please sign and share:









						Keep paid holidays. Don't scrap the Working Time Directive
					

Add your name to the petition to keep paid holidays:




					platform.organise.org.uk
				




more on this here:

No.10 Refuses To Rule Out Post-Brexit Changes To 48-Hour Work Week


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Seems to be a lot of outrage about this on Twitter whipped up by hack journalists on this. Worth remembering there is no 48 hour working week in practice and never has been.
> 
> I've had multiple jobs where I was made to sign a waiver of the right to a 48 hour work week at interview and told I wouldn't get the job if I didn't. Hilariously I was never actually asked to work more than 48 hours a week at any of them, it was just company policy to ask people to sign away their rights. The entire NHS, possibly the biggest single employer in the UK these days, is exempt from this 'protection'.
> 
> I'm not saying this purely for the sake of the argument - honestly! The Tories have been attacking workers rights for the last decade and they will continue to do so. We need to talk seriously about how they do that and how we respond. But we do also need to be realistic about what rights we have in practice and what rights the Tories are likely to attack.



The interesting thing about the WTD is how its  its application varies across the EU  and what its impact is on hours worked.


Source OECD   average hours worked annually


----------



## ska invita (Jan 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The interesting thing about the WTD is how its  its application varies across the EU  and what its impact is on hours worked.
> 
> View attachment 249180
> Source OECD


what happened exactly? my memory of it was the UK kicking up a fuss and refusing to sign up to it - hence the opt out paperwork as a compromise, whereas other countries (France for example?) did in full? is that right?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what happened exactly? my memory of it was the UK kicking up a fuss and refusing to sign up to it - hence the opt out paperwork as a compromise, whereas other countries (France for example?) did in full? is that right?


Don't know about exactly but my memory of it is about the same.  Although over the years  15 more countries have applied the individual  opt out .   Despite the fact that in the EU's  own survey  22 out of the 27 EU countries had breached one or another of the WTD’s rules no country has ended up being taken to the ECJ.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> isn't the union flag upside down a sign of distress?


Quoting stavers memes certainly is.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Why do you hate Brexit, and indeed Britain?
> 
> We left the EU for freedom.


Show jumpers are cunts though...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i never realised that venerable journal exerted so much influence on the nation
> 
> View attachment 249154


Apparently a funny clutch have hold of freedom now.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 15, 2021)

editor said:


> View attachment 249111



The flag isn’t upside down.


----------



## tommers (Jan 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The interesting thing about the WTD is how its  its application varies across the EU  and what its impact is on hours worked.
> 
> View attachment 249180
> Source OECD


What is that graph showing?


----------



## weltweit (Jan 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> I'd be up for nationalising the Scottish shellfish market and delivering a daily box of the people's langoustines to every family in the country whether they want 'em or not, but until that glorious day arrives what are they going to do with the fish that no-one wants to buy or eat here?


It is possible to export to the EU at the moment, you just have to get the paperwork right. Lots of smaller companies have managed it so it can't be that hard.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what happened exactly? my memory of it was the UK kicking up a fuss and refusing to sign up to it - hence the opt out paperwork as a compromise, whereas other countries (France for example?) did in full? is that right?


Long term since I was au fait with the detail but France went further and implemented RTT which was or is a mandatory 35 hour maximum week.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 15, 2021)

weltweit said:


> It is possible to export to the EU at the moment, you just have to get the paperwork right. Lots of smaller companies have managed it so it can't be that hard.



 Very much depends on what you are exporting, food needs a lot more paperwork than pencils.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2021)

tommers said:


> What is that graph showing?


Sorry, average hours worked annually


----------



## mauvais (Jan 15, 2021)

weltweit said:


> It is possible to export to the EU at the moment, you just have to get the paperwork right. Lots of smaller companies have managed it so it can't be that hard.


This is exactly what the government would love you to believe, just like how it would like us to believe that Covid transmission is entirely our own fault, rather than in both cases its shit decision making, communication, and delivery.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Very much depends on what you are exporting, food needs a lot more paperwork than pencils.


Do you know what sort of paperwork the fishing folks would need?


----------



## tommers (Jan 15, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry, average hours worked annually



Ah OK. Cool. Ta.


----------



## killer b (Jan 15, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Do you know what sort of paperwork the fishing folks would need?


do you?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The flag isn’t upside down.


Having it upside down was always a low point for the NF back in the day.


----------



## Supine (Jan 15, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Do you know what sort of paperwork the fishing folks would need?



They don't, or filling it in takes so long the catch gets spoiled.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 15, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Having it upside down was always a low point for the NF back in the day.



Racists often do get it wrong. See also, Swastikas.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Very much depends on what you are exporting, food needs a lot more paperwork than pencils.





weltweit said:


> Do you know what sort of paperwork the fishing folks would need?





killer b said:


> do you?


No, that's why I asked Bahnhof Strasse.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 15, 2021)

weltweit said:


> No, that's why I asked Bahnhof Strasse.



Fill yer boots...  Exporting or moving fish from the UK


----------



## editor (Jan 15, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Jan 15, 2021)

Brexit red tape: ‘If nothing changes, Ireland will be closed’
					

At Dublin Port corporate UK’s failure to prepare for Brexit is major part of delays




					www.irishtimes.com


----------



## weltweit (Jan 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fill yer boots...  Exporting or moving fish from the UK


Thanks Bahnhof Strasse, it does look complicated, but not insurmountable.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 16, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Who could possibly have predicted this?





tommers said:


> It's a real shock.



all that careful planning, wasted.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 16, 2021)

weltweit said:


> Do you know what sort of paperwork the fishing folks would need?


Yes


----------



## Badgers (Jan 16, 2021)

Exports to EU to plunge by more than one-third because of Boris Johnson’s Brexit trade deal, study warns
					

Income per head is forecast to fall by 6 per cent – just 2 per cent less than under a no-deal departure




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Jan 16, 2021)




----------



## Maltin (Jan 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 249280


Leave means leave


----------



## extra dry (Jan 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> An account of 'Project here' for Polish lorry drivers....



found this cooking page, I think I found my new hobby  Łopatka z młodą kapustą i pomidorami z piekarnika - słoiki w trasę - Kuchnia Truckera


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Show jumpers are cunts though...


Not knowing any I wouldn't know but that's a very sweeping generalisation any particular reason why?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Not knowing any I wouldn't know but that's a very sweeping generalisation any particular reason why?


They generally come from the land owning class.


----------



## gosub (Jan 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 249280


not entirely sure why the still need a website anyway


----------



## teqniq (Jan 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> not entirely sure why the still need a website anyway


Their own self regard I imagine. Well done to the Irish government for fucking them off anyway.


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Seems to be a lot of outrage about this on Twitter whipped up by hack journalists on this. Worth remembering there is no 48 hour working week in practice and never has been.
> 
> I've had multiple jobs where I was made to sign a waiver of the right to a 48 hour work week at interview and told I wouldn't get the job if I didn't. Hilariously I was never actually asked to work more than 48 hours a week at any of them, it was just company policy to ask people to sign away their rights. The entire NHS, possibly the biggest single employer in the UK these days, is exempt from this 'protection'.
> 
> I'm not saying this purely for the sake of the argument - honestly! The Tories have been attacking workers rights for the last decade and they will continue to do so. We need to talk seriously about how they do that and how we respond. But we do also need to be realistic about what rights we have in practice and what rights the Tories are likely to attack.



I appreciate this is probably going to enter the land of microscopic violins, but for a lot of the emergency services the WTD really was enforced (ie: truly voluntary opt-outs only which have to be annually reviewed) and its removal will allow this government to magically increase the number of ambulance personnel / cops / Trumptons available to them without paying overtime or having to recruit more staff.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 16, 2021)

fishing problems affecting wales too
"landings against the same period in 2019 are down between 72% and 98% across the Welsh catching sector"


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They generally come from the land owning class.


Two thirds of the population are members of the land owning class (including many urbs) so is mere membership of that class enough to qualify for being cunts or is there a minimum threshold of acreage you have to own?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 16, 2021)

Food shortages as Northern Ireland nears new Brexit deadline
					

It started when Sainsbury’s replaced its Taste the Difference range in Northern Ireland with Spar products more usually found at petrol station forecourts.Then




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




 

Can anyone get that without paywall?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 16, 2021)

agricola said:


> I appreciate this is probably going to enter the land of microscopic violins, but for a lot of the emergency services the WTD really was enforced (ie: truly voluntary opt-outs only which have to be annually reviewed) and its removal will allow this government to magically increase the number of ambulance personnel / cops / Trumptons available to them without paying overtime or having to recruit more staff.



My mate Mark is a GP, whilst a junior doctor at St George’s 70 hours was the normal working week, for a fixed wage, no overtime.

ETA, your lot do get overtime, don’t they?


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Can anyone get that without paywall?


Like this?  



> It started when Sainsbury’s replaced its Taste the Difference range in Northern Ireland with Spar products more usually found at petrol station forecourts.
> 
> Then came the empty shelves at Tesco and Marks & Spencer branches. Parcels were also delayed, with one Belfast man discovering that the computer parts he received by “international mail” had in fact been sent from Bolton.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 16, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Two thirds of the population are members of the land owning class (including many urbs) so is mere membership of that class enough to qualify for being cunts or is there a minimum threshold of acreage you have to own?


Aristo's who have owned the land since the Norman invasion.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 16, 2021)

TopCats referring to the type of people ,some 25,000 landowners mostly  members of the aristocracy and corporations who own half the land  of the country. Not someone who has a rose bush and swing in the back garden. Interestingly enough if land was shared equally across the Eglish population we'd all end up with half an acre, about the same size of a third of a football pitch, the average size of a supermarket, enough space to park over 100 cars etc etc


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 16, 2021)

A couple of informative political YouTube channels that look at Brexit:


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> TopCats referring to the type of people ,some 25,000 landowners mostly  members of the aristocracy and corporations who own half the land  of the country. Not someone who has a rose bush and swing in the back garden. Interestingly enough if land was shared equally across the Eglish population we'd all end up with half an acre, about the same size of a third of a football pitch, the average size of a supermarket, enough space to park over 100 cars etc etc


i wonder how things would change if we shared the land equally among the english scottish and welsh populations


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> A couple of informative political YouTube channels that look at Brexit:



all youtube channels are informative. in what ways are these ones informative and how may one trust the information they convey?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> all youtube channels are informative. in what ways are these ones informative and how may one trust the information they convey?


You could try watching the videos to find out, it doesn't take much time out of your day.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i wonder how things would change if we shared the land equally among the english scottish and welsh populations


the truth is out there ,somewhere


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You could try watching the videos to find out, it doesn't take much time out of your day.


i could watch speeches by john tyndall which wouldn't take much time out of my day but i don't want to. if you can't offer a positive reason to watch these videos beyond they're not that long then i don't think i'll bother


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 16, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i could watch speeches by john tyndall which wouldn't take much time out of my day but i don't want to. if you can't offer a positive reason to watch these videos beyond they're not that long then i don't think i'll bother


Don't then. I never said you HAD to watch them. But if others want to watch them they can. As I said, they are informative.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Don't then. I never said you HAD to watch them. But if others want to watch them they can. As I said, they are informative.


yeh and yet you can't tell us when asked how they are informative or whether the information within them can be relied upon


----------



## TopCat (Jan 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You could try watching the videos to find out, it doesn't take much time out of your day.


I think it's best if you give us a bit more.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 16, 2021)

Brexit videos on youtube seem not likely to help much.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think it's best if you give us a bit more.


he'll offer enough rope


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 16, 2021)

agricola said:


> I appreciate this is probably going to enter the land of microscopic violins, but for a lot of the emergency services the WTD really was enforced (ie: truly voluntary opt-outs only which have to be annually reviewed) and its removal will allow this government to magically increase the number of ambulance personnel / cops / Trumptons available to them without paying overtime or having to recruit more staff.



I didn't know that about ambulance workers - so the opt out is reviewed annually? How come this differs from other NHS workers?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ETA, your lot do get overtime, don’t they?


they famously do


----------



## agricola (Jan 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My mate Mark is a GP, whilst a junior doctor at St George’s 70 hours was the normal working week, for a fixed wage, no overtime.
> 
> ETA, your lot do get overtime, don’t they?



For full time its 40 hours a week, averaged out over a period with almost everything* after that its overtime (so some weeks can be 60 but others much less, as low as 24).  If you average over 48 during the same period then you have to either stop doing that or sign an opt-out.   Overtime is only paid to PCs and Sergeants though.  

I thought they'd done something to stop junior doctors working those sorts of hours?  

* not the first half hour of any unplanned overtime


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 16, 2021)

agricola said:


> For full time its 40 hours a week, averaged out over a period with almost everything* after that its overtime (so some weeks can be 60 but others much less, as low as 24).  If you average over 48 during the same period then you have to either stop doing that or sign an opt-out.   Overtime is only paid to PCs and Sergeants though.
> 
> I thought they'd done something to stop junior doctors working those sorts of hours?
> 
> * not the first half hour of any unplanned overtime



Seems there was talk of reducing doctors’ hours, but the way the hierarchy works in that world it is considered poor form to try and save lives when you are not hallucinating with exhaustion.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 16, 2021)

agricola said:


> For full time its 40 hours a week, averaged out over a period with almost everything* after that its overtime (so some weeks can be 60 but others much less, as low as 24).  If you average over 48 during the same period then you have to either stop doing that or sign an opt-out.   Overtime is only paid to PCs and Sergeants though.
> 
> I thought they'd done something to stop junior doctors working those sorts of hours?
> 
> * not the first half hour of any unplanned overtime



The New Deal or whatever they called it says JD's must not work more than 56 hours a week.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think it's best if you give us a bit more.


You can think what you like


----------



## teuchter (Jan 16, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You can think what you like


Why not make a YouTube video explaining why the other ones are worth watching. Then post that here. Then wait for petulant demands that you explain that one too. And so on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> The New Deal or whatever they called it says JD's must not work more than 56 hours a week.


Yeh but that can be changed easy enough, it's not set in stone


----------



## Badgers (Jan 16, 2021)




----------



## two sheds (Jan 16, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Because there have been so fucking many barefaced lies by the duplicitous fuck.


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh but that can be changed easy enough, it's not set in stone



I mean, no rules are set in stone!


----------



## Badgers (Jan 17, 2021)

> Perhaps he hadn’t actually read the deal. What had been a “a remarkable achievement” a few days before, now required seafood businesses to be “compensated accordingly”. It is clear that Johnson’s fisheries deal is unwinding quicker than a trawler winch with a faulty ratchet.











						Fishermen’s trade bodies accuse Johnson of lying to them
					

The prime minister's fisheries deal is unwinding quicker than a broken winch on a Grimsby trawler.




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Jan 17, 2021)

> UK fish exporters are unable to sell into European markets because of delays at borders and complain that Boris Johnson and others misled them about Brexit. Leading supermarket chains are warning ministers of food shortages in Northern Ireland because of new border rules and bureaucracy. And small UK companies such as Paul’s, which thrived as part of the EU single market, are saying they may have no future at all in exporting into continental Europe because of the crippling new costs.







__





						Shock Brexit charges are hurting us, say small British businesses | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Levies to cover the increase in red tape, VAT and customs declarations are hitting trade to the European Union




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## two sheds (Jan 17, 2021)

I wonder who Jonathan Saxty voted for in the election


----------



## mauvais (Jan 17, 2021)

I said that this grenade would be a problem once I pulled the pin out of it, and _now look_...


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 17, 2021)

The logical knots these people will tie themselves in to avoid taking responsibility for their own actions are incredible.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 17, 2021)

The full article is here: We Brexiteers are being blamed for the problems we warned about

Brexiteers didn't warn us about shit - they argued that none of it mattered because some other bullshit invention like WTO no deal, and of all the people to give the fewest fucks about Northern Ireland...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> I mean, no rules are set in stone!


That's not true. There's the yard rule set in stone in Trafalgar square


----------



## teqniq (Jan 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fishermen’s trade bodies accuse Johnson of lying to them
> 
> 
> The prime minister's fisheries deal is unwinding quicker than a broken winch on a Grimsby trawler.
> ...


Have they only just noticed that lying is his default mode?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>


Now that is a coronavirus haircut


----------



## TopCat (Jan 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's not true. There's the yard rule set in stone in Trafalgar square


Superb.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 17, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



ah yes, I remember now that the brexiteers have spent the last 5 years telling us that brexit was really complicated and there would be winners and losers, it was a totally different bunch of people who said that trite bullshit like “wto terms” would fix everything.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 17, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> I mean, no rules are set in stone!


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> View attachment 249572



Were they rules?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 17, 2021)




----------



## Anju (Jan 17, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Seems to be a lot of outrage about this on Twitter whipped up by hack journalists on this. Worth remembering there is no 48 hour working week in practice and never has been.
> 
> I've had multiple jobs where I was made to sign a waiver of the right to a 48 hour work week at interview and told I wouldn't get the job if I didn't. Hilariously I was never actually asked to work more than 48 hours a week at any of them, it was just company policy to ask people to sign away their rights. The entire NHS, possibly the biggest single employer in the UK these days, is exempt from this 'protection'.
> 
> I'm not saying this purely for the sake of the argument - honestly! The Tories have been attacking workers rights for the last decade and they will continue to do so. We need to talk seriously about how they do that and how we respond. But we do also need to be realistic about what rights we have in practice and what rights the Tories are likely to attack.


----------



## Winot (Jan 17, 2021)

Very detailed thread about the problems faced by one small wine importer.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 17, 2021)

Johnson pleads with business leaders: give me a reason for Brexit – Yorkshire Bylines
					

The prime minister, unable to think of any red tape to cut, asks business leaders for any unnecessary EU regulations.




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 17, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> Johnson pleads with business leaders: give me a reason for Brexit – Yorkshire Bylines
> 
> 
> The prime minister, unable to think of any red tape to cut, asks business leaders for any unnecessary EU regulations.
> ...






			
				Boris Johnson said:
			
		

> fuck business


----------



## gosub (Jan 17, 2021)

Shaping up to be an interesting Spring


----------



## smokedout (Jan 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what happened exactly? my memory of it was the UK kicking up a fuss and refusing to sign up to it - hence the opt out paperwork as a compromise, whereas other countries (France for example?) did in full? is that right?



It was quite unpopular in some trades back in the heady days when overtime was routinely paid at time and a half and double pay for weekends.  When it was being introduced I worked in a printers that had a lot of seasonal work where people worked crazy hours for a few weeks but earnt a good whack for it, and everyone supported the opt out.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Shaping up to be an interesting Spring



Think the bounce from people splurging will mask a lot of economic pain this year, next year we'll start to see more of a concrete fallout


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Jan 17, 2021)

The fishing industry is making fish extinct anyway and it's cruel. Time to leave the fish alone.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 17, 2021)

Great thread about a wine importer about how the new customs arrangements are fucking over his business. Scary thing is that this is a guy who seems to have done the utmost to educate himelf about the changes prepare. Another excellent Brexit dividend 👍


----------



## mauvais (Jan 17, 2021)

The wine industry is making grapes extinct?


----------



## alex_ (Jan 17, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The wine industry is making grapes extinct?



quite a lot of the brexiteers who used to post here have gone very quiet.

I’d have thought that seeing as it’s going so well, they wouldn’t shut up. Maybe they are celebrating somewhere else.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 18, 2021)

Wolveryeti said:


> Great thread about a wine importer about how the new customs arrangements are fucking over his business. Scary thing is that this is a guy who seems to have done the utmost to educate himelf about the changes prepare. Another excellent Brexit dividend 👍



So he predicts plonk going up by a quid and up by two quid for decent wine. 
He also predicts he is leaving the UK with his family because of brexit. Well the latter might be true. Certainly wine at the moment is the same price as before Christmas.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 18, 2021)

alex_ said:


> quite a lot of the brexiteers who used to post here have gone very quiet.
> 
> I’d have thought that seeing as it’s going so well, they wouldn’t shut up. Maybe they are celebrating somewhere else.



The most common defence always seems to be "well they deserve it I don't like X,y, z because fuck the bourgeoisie"


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

#worldbeating


----------



## mauvais (Jan 18, 2021)

The two main 'sensible' positions on here were:

(a) a spat between two forces of capital is not my fight, and/or

(b) the EU restricts the ability of a future left government to adopt necessary positions and Brexit is a good thing on this basis

The proponents of both of these seem to have shut up for the time being.

I've some sympathy for (a) because being drawn into someone else's X vs Y conflict forces you to adopt an inherently compromising position on those terms, but I think it's extremely short sighted and we are going to have a lot of what were avoidable or deferrable consequences that absolutely are your fight and you are ill equipped to fight it. Still, it is some defence to say it wasn't your problem and you didn't cause it.

I find (b) to be much worse, deluded and arrogant even, the idea that it paves the way for some forthcoming victory years from now rather than merely allowing us to be absolutely fucked today. This is inevitably coupled to the assertion that nothing good will come of miserable conditions in the interim which begs the question of why the fuck did you support it now?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The two main 'sensible' positions on here were:
> 
> (a) a spat between two forces of capital is not my fight, and/or
> 
> ...


I'm surprised by the absence of any other positions and curious who determined the sense or otherwise of these two


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

I always felt the Lexit argument boiled down to, "it's shit now and it'll get worse after we leave the EU but in the long term it'll be better!"

Now I think.of it, that was the RW brexit argument too.

In the meantime I just hope the kids get to keep eating. It's not looking massively hopeful on that front if the food parcels for schools are anything to judge by.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 18, 2021)

The RW argument promised something much more short-to-medium term I think - such is the necessary nature of populism I suppose. It sometimes acknowledged there would be some disruption and consequences but not really anything long term. The lack of planning, the years it takes to make trade deals etc were mostly dismissed.

I think if you asked Leave supporters whether they expected and were willing to accept significant interim consequences, making it worse to make it better, the majority would say that's not what they were sold.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> "it's shit now and it'll get worse after we leave the EU but in the long term it'll be better!"



Also worth mentioning the total absence of detail, in terms of how we actually get from here to there. From any quarter. Just "well it has to be better!" like a credo.

How? How will it get better? What does 'better' look like and how do we get there on a practical level?

I missed this part of the debate. I'm not sure it actually happened anywhere. The whole thing was emotional and now all we're left with is the residual anger that got us _here_. No actual plan for how to get _there_.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The two main 'sensible' positions on here were:
> 
> (a) a spat between two forces of capital is not my fight, and/or
> 
> ...


I don't share that perception of posting here in the main Brexit based threads; I'd say, if anything, the reality of brexit has seen a resurgence of the broadly (a) type posters.

But hey, maybe if you started a _Successes of Brexit _type thread you might get to hear more from those on the winning side?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> winning side



I can't wait to see what the prize is.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I can't wait to see what the prize is.


It's already here.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I don't share that perception of posing here in the main Brexit based threads; I'd say, if anything, the reality of brexit has seen a resurgence of the broadly (a) type posters.
> 
> But hey, maybe if you started a _Successes of Brexit _type thread you might get to hear more from those on the winning side?



There's one around somewhere, think it got half a dozen posts


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> There's one around somewhere, think it got half a dozen posts


Perhaps it's time has come?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I always felt the Lexit argument boiled down to, "it's shit now and it'll get worse after we leave the EU but in the long term it'll be better!"
> 
> Now I think.of it, that was the RW brexit argument too.
> 
> In the meantime I just hope the kids get to keep eating. It's not looking massively hopeful on that front if the food parcels for schools are anything to judge by.


They will be exploring new recipes for long pig by march


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They will be exploring new recipes for long pig by march



In a sovereignty coulis. A nice red one, for lolz


----------



## Winot (Jan 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Also worth mentioning the total absence of detail, in terms of how we actually get from here to there. From any quarter. Just "well it has to be better!" like a credo.
> 
> How? How will it get better? What does 'better' look like and how do we get there on a practical level?
> 
> I missed this part of the debate. I'm not sure it actually happened anywhere. *The whole thing was emotional* and now all we're left with is the residual anger that got us _here_. No actual plan for how to get _there_.



The underlined bit is important and formed the basis for a lot of Leave votes. The rest of your post is how Remain were thinking.

I haven’t seen any polls (there are some I’m sure) but there’s been a fair bit of reporting of staunch Leavers who are now happy we’ve left and don’t care about the downsides. That may of course change.


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 18, 2021)

I'm not brexit, lexit or remain as I saw/see it as someone else's argument, not aimed at people like me. BUT even I can see that it is ridiculous to judge how good or bad an idea this withdrawal was FIFTEEN DAYS after it happened though. It will take years!! 

Maybe 10 years will begin to show more realistic results of how things pan out. There will probably be way worse consequences in areas that haven't even been considered here yet. 

Whereas lots of the issues people are bringing up right now will turn out to be glitches that were easy to fix really quickly. So in a way making such a big deal of them now is helping the government, as they can then fix them and say "look we fixed what you complained about, if you complain about something else you are just complaining for the sake of it".


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The RW argument promised something much more short-to-medium term I think - such is the necessary nature of populism I suppose. It sometimes acknowledged there would be some disruption and consequences but not really anything long term. The lack of planning, the years it takes to make trade deals etc were mostly dismissed.



Apart from the zealots who thought leaving the EU was an end in itself and never mind the consequences, I thought the RW argument boiled down to a nationalistic belief that the British are inherently better at making and doing things than people in other countries, and Britain's former dominance in manufacturing and world trade could be restored if barriers that supposedly caused unfair treatment were removed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

Winot said:


> The underlined bit is important and formed the basis for a lot of Leave votes. The rest of your post is how Remain were thinking.
> 
> I haven’t seen any polls (there are some I’m sure) but there’s been a fair bit of reporting of staunch Leavers who are now happy we’ve left and don’t care about the downsides. That may of course change.


Empty vessels so often make the loudest noise


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Apart from the zealots who thought leaving the EU was an end in itself and never mind the consequences, I thought the RW argument boiled down to a nationalistic belief that the British are inherently better at making and doing things than people in other countries, and Britain's former dominance in manufacturing and world trade could be restored if barriers that supposedly caused unfair treatment were removed.



That does sound familiar...

(EtA, in all fairness I think the number of exemptions and opt-outs the UK enjoyed with its EU membership was in fact some small evidence of how well we can get what we want out of johnny foreigner. I'm still amazed the people who really think in such terms couldn't see that.)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Apart from the zealots who thought leaving the EU was an end in itself and never mind the consequences, I thought the RW argument boiled down to a nationalistic belief that the British are inherently better at making and doing things than people in other countries, and Britain's former dominance in manufacturing and world trade could be restored if barriers that supposedly caused unfair treatment were removed.


And despite everyone knowing that in a crisis one sinks to the level of one's training the Tories thought they'd rise to the occasion against people who had some notion of how to negotiate


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Empty vessels so often make the loudest noise


True of both sides of the argument, of course.

Throughout the 5+ (?) years of discussion on here about Brexit I've rarely been convinced that many of those (emotionally) defending the supra state status quo were very well informed about the entity they wanted to remain part of.

Now that the battle is over, I think it would be quite interesting to see the more remain minded folk respond to the Perry Anderson LRB pieces that butchersapron posted.

Here's the third in the series:
Perry Anderson · The Breakaway: Goodbye Europe · LRB 21 January 2021


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Maybe wine import businesses aren’t as key as they are to the ‘frictionless trade’ posters on here .


TopCat said:


> So he predicts plonk going up by a quid and up by two quid for decent wine.
> He also predicts he is leaving the UK with his family because of brexit. Well the latter might be true. Certainly wine at the moment is the same price as before Christmas.



First they came for the wine importers


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Winot said:


> The underlined bit is important and formed the basis for a lot of Leave votes. The rest of your post is how Remain were thinking.
> 
> I haven’t seen any polls (there are some I’m sure) but there’s been a fair bit of reporting of staunch Leavers who are now happy we’ve left and don’t care about the downsides. That may of course change.


An overview of Brexit (right/wrong) polling over the last year:


----------



## kabbes (Jan 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Apart from the zealots who thought leaving the EU was an end in itself and never mind the consequences, I thought the RW argument boiled down to a nationalistic belief that the British are inherently better at making and doing things than people in other countries, and Britain's former dominance in manufacturing and world trade could be restored if barriers that supposedly caused unfair treatment were removed.


There were two main understandings of Brexit on what we might broadly term "the right", which I have laid out in recent-ish pages.  One was exactly as you said -- the idea that Britain is being "held back" and "stuck" in Europe, prevented from taking its rightful place as queen of the trading nations.  This is an internationalist construction of a nationalist dogma, with interesting comparisons to the Remain position, which is a more 'pure' internationalist dogma.  And it also has interesting comparisons to the other right-wing construction of Brexit, which was a purely nationalist one -- Europe is a cultural threat that is undermining what is distinctive about Britishness and needs to be defended against.  These two chief Brexit constructions were as different from each other in aim and principle as they each are to the Remain position.

The former construction of Brexit is yet to play out because, as rutabowa points out, fifteen days is way too early for those with this value system to admit defeat.  The latter construction has already had successes and will continue to do so as long as the direction of travel is a retrenchment away from European connections. 

Neither right-wing construction of Brexit was interested in whether the bureaucracy and admin of European trade would be interrupted in the months after Brexit.  Pointing out that people might have more trouble importing wine or exporting langoustines is as relevant to those with the nationalist construction in particular as it would be to relevant to Remainers that being in Europe was a threat to the use of Imperial weights and measures.  It's just people talking past each other at that point.


----------



## alex_ (Jan 18, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The most common defence always seems to be "well they deserve it I don't like X,y, z because fuck the bourgeoisie"



“Let them eat lobster” ?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

Fifteen days (eighteen now) is too early to see much, that is clear. What is becoming clearer every day that passes is that the lies that got Leave voted for by a v.likely decisive number of people, were indeed lies. This is going to continue to poison the whole situation, and whether or not 'Remain lied too' is irrelevant because Remain lost and now we're here, and the people who Lied for Leave are still in charge, for the next four years.

What bothers me most about _it'll be shit but it'll get better_ wherever it originates, isn't whether or not it's true, but that it comes across every time I encounter it as underpinned by a tacit_ it'll be shit for most people but probably not me_ _(for unstated reasons)_. There has been very little of_ I'm set to lose my job / family / home / life but I think this is all a good idea anyway_ and it appears that Leavers across the spectrum see the fallout of Brexit as someone else's problem really.


----------



## andrewc (Jan 18, 2021)

Shellfish fishermen protesting in Westminster.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

We can trust the Conservatives on all matters


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> We can trust the Conservatives on all matters



It's the fish that he rejects....


----------



## Smangus (Jan 18, 2021)

Those immediately affected by Brexit - fishermen, importers, trucker etc are the ones having the initial headaches atm. Most people won't feel this until further down the line, inflation, job losses, less choice in the supermarket or whatever form that takes for them.  I think most of  us are more concerned with the pandemic atm tbh.

If Covid didn't exist I think there would be a lot more MSM focus on this stuff, the optics are totally different from normal atm.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 18, 2021)

Better buy your trampolines quick...

Trampoline prices 'to soar 50% on shipping costs'

Brexiteer spoilsports


----------



## Winot (Jan 18, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Better buy your trampolines quick...
> 
> Trampoline prices 'to soar 50% on shipping costs'
> 
> Brexiteer spoilsports



No Brexit bounce-back


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The RW argument promised something much more short-to-medium term I think - such is the necessary nature of populism I suppose. It sometimes acknowledged there would be some disruption and consequences but not really anything long term. The lack of planning, the years it takes to make trade deals etc were mostly dismissed.
> 
> I think if you asked Leave supporters whether they expected and were willing to accept significant interim consequences, making it worse to make it better, the majority would say that's not what they were sold.



Jacob Rees Mogg to his credit said it would take 50 years to build a new CANZUK buccaneering empire


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

Is this accurate?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Also worth mentioning the total absence of detail, in terms of how we actually get from here to there. From any quarter. Just "well it has to be better!" like a credo. How? How will it get better? What does 'better' look like and how do we get there on a practical level? I missed this part of the debate. I'm not sure it actually happened anywhere. The whole thing was emotional and now all we're left with is the residual anger that got us _here_. No actual plan for how to get _there_.


There was lots of detail - key things i remember: 350 million for the NHS a week, breaking free from EU red tape, freedom to make new trade deals, the promise of deregulation


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Is this accurate?


whats a travel exemption mean?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> There was lots of detail - key things i remember: 350 million for the NHS a week, breaking free from EU red tape, freedom to make new trade deals, the promise of deregulation


That was the r/w brexit argument. Part lies, part fantasy. 

I've never seen any detail from a lexit pov as to how you get from leaving the EU to a better place.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 249804
> 
> Is this accurate?



More context needed. What is this, where is it from, etc


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I've never seen any detail from a lexit pov as to how you get from leaving the EU to a better place.


same struggle as always, minus one less straight jacket


----------



## mauvais (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Here's the third in the series:
> Perry Anderson · The Breakaway: Goodbye Europe · LRB 21 January 2021


I haven't got all the way through this and indeed not given it the most attention, but there seem to me to be some deeply questionable assertions in this piece.

It spends a lot of time trying to pin a significant root cause for Brexit on Gordon Brown's decision not to join the Euro, and it also describes the US/UK subprime mortgage crisis which indeed the UK was highly exposed to, without any real (at least early) mention of the massive European credit crisis, which it was not.



> Had Blair pushed through accession to the EMU after 2001, or even after 2005, the outcome of the referendum would have been very different. It was his failure to override Brown, and lock Britain into the single currency when the economic going was still good for the country, that handed victory to Leave. For one lesson of the Monetary Union is crystal clear. _Ceteris paribus_, once a country is inside it, fear of the consequences of departure trumps all else if the issue is tested at the polls. The nearest a people came to leaving the single currency despite this was the Greek rejection of the Troika’s terms for a bailout in the referendum of 2015.


I do see what it's trying to do here - in too deep to get out, too big to fail. But in this alternate reality where we joined the Euro, we probably still would have been heavily exposed in our own way to the US-initiated crisis and then, as the US recovered, exposed again to the EU one, and honestly at that point I think Brexit and returning to the pound would have looked like a pretty fucking good idea all round.

Perhaps this is for a different thread.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

ive never made it to the end of anything perry anderson has written, not sure who is at blame for that

eta: found out recently his name is Peregrine. Top fact.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I haven't got all the way through this and indeed not given it the most attention, but there seem to me to be some deeply questionable assertions in this piece.
> 
> It spends a lot of time trying to pin a significant root cause for Brexit on Gordon Brown's decision not to join the Euro, and it also describes the US/UK subprime mortgage crisis which indeed the UK was highly exposed to, without any real (at least early) mention of the massive European credit crisis, which it was not.
> 
> ...


Problem with counterfactuals is that you very quickly get into imponderables. For instance, the UK property price bubble started to inflate in earnest in 2002. How might joining the euro a year earlier have affected that? By the time you get to the credit crunch six years later, all kinds of different things could have happened.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> There was lots of detail - key things i remember: 350 million for the NHS a week, breaking free from EU red tape, freedom to make new trade deals, the promise of deregulation



yes, the wish lists were endless, the _to do_ lists less impressive.


----------



## Supine (Jan 18, 2021)




----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 18, 2021)

something fishy afoot?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> View attachment 249804
> 
> Is this accurate?





ska invita said:


> whats a travel exemption mean?




This is the UK's Covid response, tightening up the borders to prevent so many arrivals. Not Brexit related in any way.


----------



## andysays (Jan 18, 2021)

Supine said:


>



BBC website reporting 15 - 20  trucks in Whitehall


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> BBC website reporting 15 - 20  trucks in Whitehall


No doubt Farage is there supporting them


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I haven't got all the way through this and indeed not given it the most attention, but there seem to me to be some deeply questionable assertions in this piece.
> 
> It spends a lot of time trying to pin a significant root cause for Brexit on Gordon Brown's decision not to join the Euro, and it also describes the US/UK subprime mortgage crisis which indeed the UK was highly exposed to, without any real (at least early) mention of the massive European credit crisis, which it was not.
> 
> ...


I can't be bothered to read all that but sounds like he's talking right bollocks. The Euro was the single biggest mistake of the EU in my opinion. And some people knew what was wrong with it but it still went ahead. A currency is a tool of government, not a natural outcome of markets (see recent re-writings of the history of money). So either you have an EU wide government or you can't control your EU-wide currency. But there's resistance (understandably) to the notion of EU-wide government, so instead what happens is de facto EU government by the richest countries and the poor countries get screwed. This is going to happen repeatedly until the Euro is dumped. One of the things the more reasonable Brexiters saw was a de facto government across the Euro area that looked deeply unsavoury, since the EU had to deny that there was a European government. It looked bad enough from a distance, the idea that us being involved in it would have made it look better is laughable.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> BBC website reporting 15 - 20  trucks in Whitehall


If they can't export and they've driven down to protest that would leave them open to arrest under the covid regs, no?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Problem with counterfactuals is that you very quickly get into imponderables. For instance, the UK property price bubble started to inflate in earnest in 2002. How might joining the euro a year earlier have affected that? By the time you get to the credit crunch six years later, all kinds of different things could have happened.


 
As much as we didn't join the EUro under Blair nor Brown for that matter, the Treasury had a EUro convergence section that Cameron abolished.  Part of that convergience saw our intrest rates halved in the name of EUro parity.....it was that slash in interest rates (Eire had similar rates to UK prior to joining the EUro) both here and in Ireland which led to the overcooked house prices


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I can't be bothered to read all that but sounds like he's talking right bollocks. The Euro was the single biggest mistake of the EU in my opinion. And some people knew what was wrong with it but it still went ahead. A currency is a tool of government, not a natural outcome of markets (see recent re-writings of the history of money). So either you have an EU wide government or you can't control your EU-wide currency. But there's resistance (understandably) to the notion of EU-wide government, so instead what happens is de facto EU government by the richest countries and the poor countries get screwed. This is going to happen repeatedly until the Euro is dumped. One of the things the more reasonable Brexiters saw was a de facto government across the Euro area that looked deeply unsavoury, since the EU had to deny that there was a European government. It looked bad enough from a distance, the idea that us being involved in it would have made it look better is laughable.


I agree with much of that, but the UK inside the euro would likely have been on the German/Dutch side of that wealth and power divide rather than the Greek/Spanish one. Being inside the euro may not have made the euro look better, but it may very well have made it look far harder to leave the EU. I don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable point.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If they can't export and they've driven down to protest that would leave them open to arrest under the covid regs, no?



Not if government lobbying is a work duty, which it clearly could be if they don't admit it isn't.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> More context needed. What is this, where is it from, etc


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I haven't got all the way through this and indeed not given it the most attention, but there seem to me to be some deeply questionable assertions in this piece.
> 
> It spends a lot of time trying to pin a significant root cause for Brexit on Gordon Brown's decision not to join the Euro, and it also describes the US/UK subprime mortgage crisis which indeed the UK was highly exposed to, without any real (at least early) mention of the massive European credit crisis, which it was not.
> 
> ...


I think you're right that discussion of the Anderson piece is probably best left to the relevant thread.

But, seeing as you're raised the point...I really don't agree with the assertion that _a significant root cause for Brexit [was] Gordon Brown's decision not to join the Euro. _The point Anderson makes is that, as a result of being outside of the monetary union, UK voters with savings (the old/wealthy etc) were free to make their referendum decision without threat of the most immediate and concrete harm to their own material interests. A factor, yes...but not a root cause.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I can't be bothered to read all that but sounds like he's talking right bollocks. The Euro was the single biggest mistake of the EU in my opinion. And some people knew what was wrong with it but it still went ahead. A currency is a tool of government, not a natural outcome of markets (see recent re-writings of the history of money). So either you have an EU wide government or you can't control your EU-wide currency. But there's resistance (understandably) to the notion of EU-wide government, so instead what happens is de facto EU government by the richest countries and the poor countries get screwed. This is going to happen repeatedly until the Euro is dumped. One of the things the more reasonable Brexiters saw was a de facto government across the Euro area that looked deeply unsavoury, since the EU had to deny that there was a European government. It looked bad enough from a distance, the idea that us being involved in it would have made it look better is laughable.


i think you might like to consider other aspects of the relationship outside the euro - do you honestly think as you suggest here that the likes of germany would not have enjoyed more power than say the greek government or romanian government anyway? your suggestion seems frankly facile.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with much of that, but the UK inside the euro would likely have been on the German/Dutch side of that wealth and power divide rather than the Greek/Spanish one. Being inside the euro may not have made the euro look better, but it may very well have made it look far harder to leave the EU. I don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable point.


made it look harder. not necessarily made it harder. a not insignificant difference.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> As much as we didn't join the EUro under Blair nor Brown for that matter, the Treasury had a EUro convergence section that Cameron abolished.  Part of that convergience saw our intrest rates halved in the name of EUro parity.....it was that slash in interest rates (Eire had similar rates to UK prior to joining the EUro) both here and in Ireland which led to the overcooked house prices


what year were " intrest rates halved in the name of EUro parity"?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> As much as we didn't join the EUro under Blair nor Brown for that matter, the Treasury had a EUro convergence section that Cameron abolished.  Part of that convergience saw our intrest rates halved in the name of EUro parity.....it was that slash in interest rates (Eire had similar rates to UK prior to joining the EUro) both here and in Ireland which led to the overcooked house prices


In part, but it was Lawson's pumping up to win the '87 election that had baked in the asset price inflation.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Yeah they'll just need to self-isolate for the appropriate period like most arrivals. I can understand exemptions for channel tunnel workers, oil rig staff, diplomats and air crew. Not sure that journos and advertisers should really be avoiding quarantine.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



What's an ornamental horticulture worker? Is it someone who prepares plants that are nice to look at or someone who just generally prepares plants but is actually good looking themselves?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

Uk base rates over time.

6 down to 4 prior to the bubble, drifting back up towards 6 during the bubble.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you might like to consider other aspects of the relationship outside the euro - do you honestly think as you suggest here that the likes of germany would not have enjoyed more power than say the greek government or romanian government anyway? your suggestion seems frankly facile.


Let's face it, any post that kicks off with


Brainaddict said:


> I can't be bothered to read all that but sounds like he's talking right bollocks.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Uk base rates over time.
> 
> 6 down to 4 prior to the bubble, drifting back up towards 6 during the bubble.


do you have something which covers the period 1 june 2017 to say december 2020?


----------



## Raheem (Jan 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What's an ornamental horticulture worker? Is it someone who prepares plants that are nice to look at or someone who just generally prepares plants but is actually good looking themselves?


It's a gardener that fits on the mantelpiece.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> What's an ornamental horticulture worker?


picture Spymaster wearing tweeds posing with a shovel or rake.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


>




Official link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules

Basically the only people allowed in to the UK without quarantine are now Covid workers, truckers and flight/train crews.

Plus they intend to actually enforce the quarantine, whereas until now it has been effectively a voluntary thing. No mention of how they intend to enforce it yet though.


----------



## gosub (Jan 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what year were " intrest rates halved in the name of EUro parity"?



At introduction of EUro  UK rates 7% they come down to under 4 by 2004 .  

I was going from memory.  Looking at it 2004-8 looks more about stable exchange rate than convergence.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> picture Spymaster wearing tweeds posing with a shovel or rake.



I was thinking a gnome with a rake, but you got there before me


----------



## Brainaddict (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I agree with much of that, but the UK inside the euro would likely have been on the German/Dutch side of that wealth and power divide rather than the Greek/Spanish one. Being inside the euro may not have made the euro look better, but it may very well have made it look far harder to leave the EU. I don't think that's necessarily an unreasonable point.


But the 'return sovereignty' gang picked over every tiny little battle that the UK lost, even though the UK much more often won its arguments in the EU. That would have been really magnified if we'd been in the euro. Even if we'd got our way 95% of the time (and we probably would have done), the 5% of the time we didn't it would all have been GERMANY GETS THEIR WAY AGAIN DID WE REALLY WIN TWO WORLD WARS TO PUT UP WITH GERMAN HEGEMONY AGAIN. It all would have been even more magnified by the importance of the economic decisions you have to make together when you share a currency.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yeah they'll just need to self-isolate for the appropriate period like most arrivals. I can understand exemptions for channel tunnel workers, oil rig staff, diplomats and air crew. Not sure that journos and advertisers should really be avoiding quarantine.




What has been happening is advertisers (TV ads and photoshoots) come to the UK and quarantine in a hotel but can leave to go to set only. That's now being dropped.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> What has been happening is advertisers (TV ads and photoshoots) come to the UK and quarantine in a hotel but can leave to go to set only. That's now being dropped.



Good. Self-isolating which includes going to work making adverts shouldn't be a thing.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

Subject for another thread, but the UK govt is rather confused over this. You're supposed to impose quarantine measures when your infection levels are lower than lots of other places, not higher.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Good. Self-isolating which includes going to work making adverts shouldn't be a thing.




Yeah, was an odd exemption. Not quite as odd as another one which has now been closed; "if your work means you travel out of the UK more than one a week, no quarantine at all." That's was just nuts, surely that makes you more likely to get it? Still, the advertising thing and business thing has kept me busy the past few months, looks like I'll be able to spend more time working on my fitness and cycling skills now.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Subject for another thread, but the UK govt is rather confused over this. You're supposed to impose quarantine measures when your infection levels are lower than lots of other places, not higher.



No, you want to stop variants coming in, especially via third countries and also including ones we don't know about yet.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> But the 'return sovereignty' gang picked over every tiny little battle that the UK lost, even though the UK much more often won its arguments in the EU. That would have been really magnified if we'd been in the euro. Even if we'd got our way 95% of the time (and we probably would have done), the 5% of the time we didn't it would all have been GERMANY GETS THEIR WAY AGAIN DID WE REALLY WIN TWO WORLD WARS TO PUT UP WITH GERMAN HEGEMONY AGAIN. It all would have been even more magnified by the importance of the economic decisions you have to make together when you share a currency.


One of the strongest points made in the Anderson piece relating to pivotal moments in the 'road to Brexit' was an example of precisely the opposite of what you assert. It was Germany's (Merkel's) 'work-around' of Cameron's veto that convinced more Tories that reform was not an option, whatever Cameron claimed.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> No, you want to stop variants coming in, especially via third countries and also including ones we don't know about yet.


Door. Stable. Bolted. Horse.


----------



## platinumsage (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Door. Stable. Bolted. Horse.



Yes they should have imposed quarantine on arrivals from the beginning, but that doesn't mean it won't continue to be useful throughout the pandemic for the reason I stated, regardless of the relative infection levels in different countries.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

Six year old's vital medication runs out because of Brexit changes | ITV News 

More teething issues


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yeah they'll just need to self-isolate for the appropriate period like most arrivals. I can understand exemptions for channel tunnel workers, oil rig staff, diplomats and air crew. Not sure that journos and advertisers should really be avoiding quarantine.


Covid-19 not Brexit


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> One of the strongest points made in the Anderson piece relating to pivotal moments in the 'road to Brexit' was an example of precisely the opposite of what you assert. It was Germany's (Merkel's) 'work-around' of Cameron's veto that convinced more Tories that reform was not an option, whatever Cameron claimed.
> 
> View attachment 249828


if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.


----------



## andysays (Jan 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Subject for another thread, but the UK govt is rather confused over this. You're supposed to impose quarantine measures when your infection levels are lower than lots of other places, not higher.


It might also help to prevent new variants or strains arriving here unchecked, that that's another story...


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

Fines issued 









						Seafood protesters fined after descending on London
					

Police confirmed that a number of people had been issued with fixed penalty notices after breaking Covid-19 regulations.




					www.irvinetimes.com


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

It is the companies fault though. 









						Boris Johnson blames seafood exporters ‘not filling in the right forms’ for post-Brexit sales crash
					

PM also vows to control ‘all the fish’ in years to come – even though EU can impose harsh retaliation if it tries




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Smangus (Jan 18, 2021)

Yeah but they can just send all thise forms to him can't they?


----------



## Raheem (Jan 18, 2021)

They can download the forms they need from the dwp website.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

Fuck business eh? 

Farage must be down there by now helping sort this out and offering a rallying cry


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And despite everyone knowing that in a crisis one sinks to the level of one's training the Tories thought they'd rise to the occasion against people who had some notion of how to negotiate


Immiediately re-reads the history of internal EU negotiations


Pickman's model said:


> if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.


Oh the reform the EU option . What concessions might Cameron have got if he’d have followed your advice?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Immiediately re-reads the history of internal EU negotiations
> 
> Oh the reform the EU option . What concessions might Cameron have got if he’d have followed your advice?


do read the fucking post, i said he'd have been in a far better position to extract concessions not i've a list tucked in my wallet of the concessions he'd have been able to extract

quite possibly he'd have got little more than he did anyway - three crumbs instead of two - but that's only because he is such a shitty negotiator


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fines issued
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did think that's how they'd be dealt with, tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> do read the fucking post, i said he'd have been in a far better position to extract concessions not i've a list tucked in my wallet of the concessions he'd have been able to extract
> 
> quite possibly he'd have got little more than he did anyway - three crumbs instead of two - but that's only because he is such a shitty negotiator


I read the post btw and was fascinated with this idea that it all boils down to the EU having better negotiators  In terms of your unlikely scenario where Cameron followed your advice I was trying to acertain in your opinion what concessions he might have been looking for  and would they have been enough to ward off his backbenches and avoid a referendum.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 18, 2021)

Wonder how much it cost to truck some of those artics down from Scotland for theprotest.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Fines issued
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this is just going to up the ante isnt it?
if their crisis is existential for them i expect they'll be going in next time


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Official link: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-travellers-exempt-from-uk-border-rules
> 
> Basically the only people allowed in to the UK without quarantine are now Covid workers, truckers and flight/train crews.
> 
> Plus they intend to actually enforce the quarantine, whereas until now it has been effectively a voluntary thing. No mention of how they intend to enforce it yet though.


Ive never been contacted when Ive flown back to the UK but a couple of my friends have been by local public health. One option I recently read about were quarantine hotels


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ive never been contacted when Ive flown back to the UK but a couple of my friends have been by local public health. One option I recently read about were quarantine hotels




Seems that Old Bill have knocked on some door, but when there was no answer no further action was taken.

The hotels thing is an aspiration, can't happen with the current numbers passing through Heathrow, there's no where near enough rooms. This is why Australia limits the number of daily arrivals in to the country, so that all arrivals can be stuck in a hotel room.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I read the post btw and was fascinated with this idea that it all boils down to the EU having better negotiators  In terms of your unlikely scenario where Cameron followed your advice I was trying to acertain in your opinion what concessions he might have been looking for  and would they have been enough to ward off his backbenches and avoid a referendum.


if you did indeed read the post then i am surprised you did not note that i proposed matters would have been rather different if a referendum on whether the uk should remain within an unreformed eu preceded rather than succeeded negotiations on concessions.

i also said nothing about eu negotiators, by people used to getting their own way i was thinking of merkel.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Seems that Old Bill have knocked on some door, but when there was no answer no further action was taken.
> 
> The hotels thing is an aspiration, can't happen with the current numbers passing through Heathrow, there's no where near enough rooms. This is why Australia limits the number of daily arrivals in to the country. so that all arrivals can be stuck in a hotel room.


Good point. The locator data is supposed to be made available to local public health but I've no idea how or if that happens or in what form. Then of course there's the issue about how Public Health then resource contacting the passenger .


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if you did indeed read the post then i am surprised you did not note that i proposed matters would have been rather different if a referendum on whether the uk should remain within an unreformed eu preceded rather than succeeded negotiations on concessions.


OK , so lets say that happened and the result is to leave  ( for the sake of your scenario that puts Cameron in a better negotiating position)  and Cameron , again according to your scenario ends up with a couple of crumbs extra what happens then? Another referendum on the crumbs ? a referendum on whether the crumbs constitute reform.?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Albania which is a candidate member for EU status criticised the EU for lack of support over vaccinations in the Western Balkans .They got a letter from the French Embassy which sympathetically read   “We want to remind you that every year, the EU is the biggest donor in Albania, with more than €100 million, in various sectors. "


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 18, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Six year old's vital medication runs out because of Brexit changes | ITV News
> 
> More teething issues


This is fucking outrageous but I am sure that Boris will send flowers and a sympathy card when her parents are burying her.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> OK , so lets say that happened and the result is to leave  ( for the sake of your scenario that puts Cameron in a better negotiating position)  and Cameron , again according to your scenario ends up with a couple of crumbs extra what happens then? Another referendum on the crumbs ? a referendum on whether the crumbs constitute reform.?


To be honest I left everything else up to the hypothetical callmedave. He could have declared that five crumbs constitute significant reform and his political mastery had led to this great result. He might have said this isn't enough and called a snap election to determine if London is governed from Westminster or Brussels and perhaps have invoked A50 if he'd won. One thing I doubt would have happened is a series of referenda. As it is Cameron is very fortunate to have been succeeded by two such dismal prime ministers who have largely eroded the memory of how utterly incompetent and abysmal his administration was


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This is fucking outrageous but I am sure that Boris will send flowers and a sympathy card when her parents are burying her.


He'll send them to the wrong address


----------



## mauvais (Jan 18, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This is fucking outrageous but I am sure that Boris will send flowers


Which will also be stuck in a customs queue. Thoughts and prayers it is.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if in 2016 the option had been 'should the uk remain in an unreformed european union' and if this had taken place before cameron went on his stupid mission to obtain crumbs from the brussels table then he would have been in a far better position to extract concessions with the threat of leaving otherwise. tbh the entire thing doesn't come down to reform not being an option but to cameron's fuckwittery being outmanoeuvred by merkel. they sent a child to do an adult's job. given the noises cameron made about fiscal discipline in this country it's no great surprise that when he turned round abroad and said something different no fucker paid any heed. i'll say it again - if you want to go up against people who have years of experience in getting their own way then you shouldn't send some featherweight tory with the political nous of a student politician up against them.


If you're going to propose this as an alternative "thing what Cameron should of done" why not propose just not bothering having a referendum at all?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If you're going to propose this as an alternative "thing what Cameron should of done" why not propose just not bothering having a referendum at all?


rather than post drivel like this ^ why not post something worth reading?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If you're going to propose this as an alternative "thing what Cameron should of done" why not propose just not bothering having a referendum at all?


UKIP getting a million votes in the EU election was a big driver.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He'll send them to the wrong address


Plus put it on expenses


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> UKIP getting a million votes in the EU election was a big driver.


Indeed, and Pickman's proposed solution, which would have made it easy for Cameron to come back with crumbs and claim they constituted "reform" would have been about as good as not bothering with a referendum at all, for those voters.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Indeed, and Pickman's proposed solution, which would have made it easy for Cameron to come back with crumbs and claim they constituted "reform" would have been about as good as not bothering with a referendum at all, for those voters.


The whole question amounted to the preferred veneer of 'democracy' stuck on the neoliberal, consolidator state. You can argue the strategy all you want, but the 'rules of the game' remain constant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Indeed, and Pickman's proposed solution, which would have made it easy for Cameron to come back with crumbs and claim they constituted "reform" would have been about as good as not bothering with a referendum at all, for those voters.


if you recall he did come back with crumbs and claim they constituted reform.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The whole question amounted to the preferred veneer of 'democracy' stuck on the neoliberal, consolidator state. You can argue the strategy all you want, but the 'rules of the game' remain constant.


no, no he can't. he blusters away like he always does.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> If you're going to propose this as an alternative "thing what Cameron should of done" why not propose just not bothering having a referendum at all?


I like 'what ifs' . What do you think would have happened if Cameron hadn't promised a referendum


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I like 'what ifs' . What do you think would have happened if Cameron hadn't promised a referendum


He wouldn't have lost the referendum.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if you recall he did come back with crumbs and claim they constituted reform.


Yes, and then the nation voted Leave.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He wouldn't have lost the referendum.


No shit


----------



## teuchter (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I like 'what ifs' . What do you think would have happened if Cameron hadn't promised a referendum


I don't know. Unlike pickman's model I don't claim to be some kind of political mastermind who is way better at knowing what to do than a multitude of prime ministers. But I don't think it would have led to a worse outcome than pickman's model's rubbish suggestion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Yes <bluster>


it's always good to see you show you don't know what you're talking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I don't know. Unlike pickman's model I don't claim to be some kind of political mastermind who is way better at knowing what to do than a multitude of prime ministers. But I don't think it would have led to a worse outcome than pickman's model's rubbish suggestion.


i don't claim to be some sort of political mastermind.

tbf you don't need to be some sort of political mastermind to know better what to do than a multitude of prime ministers.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> No shit


It was you who invited us to channel Mystic Meg


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It was you who invited us to channel Mystic Meg


Houdi Elbow


----------



## Raheem (Jan 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> He wouldn't have lost the referendum.


You're exaggerating Cameron's competence.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 18, 2021)

Meanwhile over in Mordor,  Looks like this brexit lark is catching on ...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 18, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Indeed, and Pickman's proposed solution, which would have made it easy for Cameron to come back with crumbs and claim they constituted "reform" would have been about as good as not bothering with a referendum at all, for those voters.


I'm not sure about that. The EU leaders totally cunted off Cameron at the time. 

A bit of respect (to the UK) and some reasonable concessions at that time would have diffused a lot of the built up resentments.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I'm not sure about that. The EU leaders totally cunted off Cameron at the time.
> 
> A bit of respect (to the UK) and some reasonable concessions at that time would have diffused a lot of the built up resentments.


Nah, the EU, as an institution is in a better position post-Brexit than it would have been if it had offered Cameron the sorts of concessions it would have taken. By now, half a dozen countries would have pulled the same stunt, and the EU would have ended up a husk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I'm not sure about that. The EU leaders totally cunted off Cameron at the time.
> 
> A bit of respect (to the UK) and some reasonable concessions at that time would have diffused a lot of the built up resentments.


they cunted cameron off because he turned up without anything to back him up

theodore roosevelt, the american president, famously said 'speak softly and carry a big stick'

cameron had at most a twig and so no one heard his soft speaking

if he'd done the obvious thing, had a referendum and then gone he'd have outmanoeuvred farage as there'd have been the referendum (do you want to remain in an unreformed eu), he'd have a big mandate to wave in front of the french and germans, and it wouldn't have looked like the british had sent baldrick.

in addition, by having a referendum before asking if he could have some concessions cameron would have made it more difficult, not less, for other countries to get the same because referenda are a fucking headache.


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I'm not sure about that. The EU leaders totally cunted off Cameron at the time.
> 
> A bit of respect (to the UK) and some reasonable concessions at that time would have diffused a lot of the built up resentments.



TBF I am not sure they could have - after all, almost all the issues on the doorstep were more down to the actions of the UK Government rather than the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

agricola said:


> TBF I am not sure they could have - after all, almost all the issues on the doorstep were more down to the actions of the UK Government rather than the EU.


yeh but what always happens in those circumstances is the leader looks for a foreign policy success. obvs ideally a war. but in the absence of a handy war he could win, cameron might have thought he'd outfox those wily eu leaders. and as so often in his administration he showed himself totally unsuited to the challenge


----------



## agricola (Jan 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but what always happens in those circumstances is the leader looks for a foreign policy success. obvs ideally a war. but in the absence of a handy war he could win, cameron might have thought he'd outfox those wily eu leaders. and as so often in his administration he showed himself totally unsuited to the challenge



indeed - even if he had forced and won concessions he'd have then faced the insurmountable political difficulties of someone saying that he'd done what he promised, to bring home the bacon.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I'm not sure about that. The EU leaders totally cunted off Cameron at the time.
> 
> A bit of respect (to the UK) and some reasonable concessions at that time would have diffused a lot of the built up resentments.


Tbf, the UK already had a great deal, vetos, rebate etc. They decided to draw a line.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

agricola said:


> indeed - even if he had forced and won concessions he'd have then faced the insurmountable political difficulties of someone saying that he'd done what he promised, to bring home the bacon.


you'd send him to the shops for bacon and he'd bring back gammon if you were lucky.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 18, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Tbf, the UK already had a great deal, vetos, rebate etc. They decided to draw a line.


he went there without any reason for them to give him anything. they didn't need to draw a line. they chucked him a few peanuts and watched him perform.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Nah, the EU, as an institution is in a better position post-Brexit than it would have been if it had offered Cameron the sorts of concessions it would have taken. By now, half a dozen countries would have pulled the same stunt, and the EU would have ended up a husk.



What sort of concessions were you thinking of?


----------



## Raheem (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What sort of concessions were you thinking of?


Well, what was offered and was apparently derisory what the "handbrake", the ability to have temporary suspensions to free movement of people. Acceptable would have presumably been something that effectively ended it permanently.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 18, 2021)

Maybe the real treasures of Brexit were the friends we made along the way


----------



## gosub (Jan 18, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Maybe the real treasures of Brexit were the friends we made along the way


Happy fish!


----------



## teqniq (Jan 18, 2021)




----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 18, 2021)

Yum


----------



## SpackleFrog (Jan 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Albania which is a candidate member for EU status criticised the EU for lack of support over vaccinations in the Western Balkans .They got a letter from the French Embassy which sympathetically read   “We want to remind you that every year, the EU is the biggest donor in Albania, with more than €100 million, in various sectors. "



Have you got a link for that?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2021)

SpackleFrog said:


> Have you got a link for that?











						Paris sends protest note to Albanian PM
					






					www.euractiv.com


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Petition: Seek Europe-wide Visa-free work permit for Touring professionals and Artists
> 
> 
> We would like the UK Govt to negotiate a free cultural work permit that gives us visa free travel throughout the 27 EU states for music touring professionals, bands, musicians, artists, TV and sports celebrities that tour the EU to perform shows and events & Carnet exception for touring equipment.
> ...




On Tuesday 19 January there will be an Urgent Question asking the Secretary of State for Digital, Culture, Media and Sport if he will make a statement on visa arrangements for UK musicians in the EU.

You can watch the response, and further questions on the topic here: Parliamentlive.tv

1pm


----------



## Humberto (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't claim to be some sort of political mastermind.
> 
> tbf you don't need to be some sort of political mastermind to know better what to do than a multitude of prime ministers.



Apparently we've in Britain the worst p


Pickman's model said:


> i don't claim to be some sort of political mastermind.
> 
> tbf you don't need to be some sort of political mastermind to know better what to do than a multitude of prime ministers.



Tbh Britain is one of the worst spots for suffering the effects of poor handling of the Covid-19 virus. We aren't saying this shit for fun. It's the truth.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Tbf, the UK already had a great deal, vetos, rebate etc. They decided to draw a line.


Well that wasnt reflected in the vote. People wanted out of the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

Polly going full on LBJ today. Bless. 








						Brexiters are waking up to the damage they've done | Polly Toynbee
					

From horse racing to fishing to road haulage, British industry is in chaos. No wonder leavers are turning on each other, says Guardian columnist Polly Toynbee




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well that wasnt reflected in the vote. People wanted out of the EU.


You think any of them were lied to?


----------



## andysays (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Polly going full on LBJ today. Bless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Does she still have her villa in Tuscany?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

agricola said:


> TBF I am not sure they could have - after all, almost all the issues on the doorstep were more down to the actions of the UK Government rather than the EU.


They could see then where this would end up and they (EU leaders) not wanting a no deal or thin deal could have made concessions then to protect the wider EU.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> You think any of them were lied to?


Both sides of both campaigns lied.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Does she still have her villa in Tuscany?


But so hard to be there for winter and spring now.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both sides of both campaigns lied.


Project Fear


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Polly going full on LBJ today. Bless.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She leads with horse racing, I note. Horse racing is not an industry, it's a ghoulish anachronism. If brexit scours it from the earth then hurrah for Brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> She leads with horse racing, I note. Horse racing is not an industry, it's a ghoulish anachronism. If brexit scours it from the earth then hurrah for Brexit.


Her assertion that Hake landed and sold in Hastings went for 2p a kilo bears examination. Was the fish five days old? Sounds well fishy to me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Her assertion that Hake landed and sold in Hastings went for 2p a kilo bears examination. Was the fish five days old? Sounds well fishy to me.



If that’s the case my fishmonger’s a fucking mug, Hastings is about the same distance as Billingsgate from here, but Hake is a hell of a lot more than 2p a kilo


----------



## kabbes (Jan 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If that’s the case my fishmonger’s a fucking mug, Hastings is about the same distance as Billingsgate from here, but Hake is a hell of a lot more than 2p a kilo


Doesn’t sound like its your _fishmonger_ that’s the mug in your transaction there...

Edit because I feel that my joke is poorly enough written that it needs explaining.  I am saying that your fishmonger is going to Hastings and buying the hake for 2p a kilo but then selling it to you for a lot more whilst telling you that he bought it in Billingsgate.  If you need any further elucidation of this joke, please don’t hesitate to ask.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both sides of both campaigns lied.



Did anyone tell the truth? I'm having trouble recalling even one incontrovertibly true statement regarding brexit. Even the name is a bullshit mangleword.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If that’s the case my fishmonger’s a fucking mug, Hastings is about the same distance as Billingsgate from here, but Hake is a hell of a lot more than 2p a kilo


The comments on her column are worth a look. Labour (who the commenters do not support) should immediately campaign for rejoining etc.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Did anyone tell the truth? I'm having trouble recalling even one incontrovertibly true statement regarding brexit. Even the name is a bullshit mangleword.


The truth was out there just not represented well by either campaign. 
How many people decided though based on either campaign? Did you?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 19, 2021)

I decided based on who called the ref and who would be negotiating the agreements. Never trust a Tory. My vote had FA to do with the EU.


----------



## Winot (Jan 19, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Did anyone tell the truth? I'm having trouble recalling even one incontrovertibly true statement regarding brexit. Even the name is a bullshit mangleword.



The fact that leaving the customs union and single market would make trade harder was pretty well-documented tbh. Of course many on the Leave side said they’d be prepared to stay in, until Theresa May got her claws into it, at which point the lies about “exact same benefits” started.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Her assertion that Hake landed and sold in Hastings went for 2p a kilo bears examination. Was the fish five days old? Sounds well fishy to me.


 Shouldn’t be landing huss anyway. Poor little feckers


----------



## Raheem (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many people decided though based on either campaign? Did you?



The polling numbers definitely changed to the benefit of leave as the campaign progressed. Proving a causal link may be strictly impossible, I suppose.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I decided based on who called the ref and who would be negotiating the agreements. Never trust a Tory. My vote had FA to do with the EU.



Presumably you voted for option three: spunking cock on the ballot then?

Because both leave and remain were Tory driven to the hilt


----------



## prunus (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both sides of both campaigns lied.



Not asked sarcastically, but what specific things regarding the results of leaving the EU did the remain side lie about?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well that wasnt reflected in the vote. People wanted out of the EU.


It wasn't mentioned in the arguments at all  that's why.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Presumably you voted for option three: spunking cock on the ballot then?
> 
> Because both leave and remain were Tory driven to the hilt



No, i voted for the status quo because I didn't trust the people proposing to overturn it. I considered abstaining but worried that would play into the hands of the wreckers by giving them a slim victory.

O but how wrong I was


----------



## Anju (Jan 19, 2021)

A couple of articles about the potential impact on small sellers using Amazon, eBay and other big online platforms were posted elsewhere last year and here we are, 150,000 small businesses negatively impacted. 









						British sellers on Amazon and other online marketplaces hit by Brexit charges | ITV News
					

Many small businesses that sold to the EU are being forced to raise prices because of new tariffs. | ITV National News




					www.itv.com
				




Still not seen anything from the lex/brex people outlining any positive aspects of brexit, possible paths to future benefits or acknowledgement of the harm done. Instead we have people dismissing the potential removal of workers rights on the grounds that they weren't really being protected by existing laws. We're supposed to believe that not having those laws somehow makes it more likely that those rights will be fought for, secured, implemented and protected now. The most striking similarity between lexit and brexit people is their disconnect from reality.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jan 19, 2021)

How about vital supplies for the Utilities industry? In my Inbox just now.....

*"Dear Customer,*

We are currently forced to temporarily suspend all Land Transport services from continental Europe to the UK with immediate effect.
The arrangements agreed under the Brexit deal have meant enormous bureaucratic regulations particularly for recipients in the UK, which they are currently unable to handle in a legally compliant manner. Most of the recipients (Importers or Consignee’s) in the UK have never dealt with customs procedures before and need further guidance on the new regulations (e.g. the confirmation of the correct ten-digit commodity codes, providing Power of Attorney).
*Therefore, we need to advise you to postpone all shipments until further notice.* Furthermore, would you also please ensure that all necessary paperwork for customs i.e. export and import documentation, is in place for your shipments, as well as at the consignee i.e. all direct representation letters and HMRC information to allow for a smooth customs clearance.
We will do our utmost to support both origin and destination; shipper, and recipients and continue with our service as soon as possible.
If you have any questions, please contact your local ****** team for support and further information.
*
Your***** team"*


----------



## brogdale (Jan 19, 2021)

Thick twat Brandon Lewis really has been sent out on a Goebbels-style media round this morning; the empty shelves in NI shops are _nothing to do with leaving the EU..._


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> How about vital supplies for the Utilities industry? In my Inbox just now.....
> 
> *"Dear Customer,*
> 
> ...



Whose this from?


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jan 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whose this from?



A global delivery/logistics company


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

Anju said:


> A couple of articles about the potential impact on small sellers using Amazon, eBay and other big online platforms were posted elsewhere last year and here we are, 150,000 small businesses negatively impacted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not wanting to dismiss the  the big tent issues of the potential issues on small sellers on Amazon however the 'potential removal' of workers rights would be less of an issue if Labour and the TUC had pushed for them to be on the statute book as they are in some other European countries .The last labour government was for the opt out , 16 EU countries have opt outs and exemptions. If remain /second referendum hadn't wrecked Labours chances of being elected or at least avoiding the catastrophic defeat at the election then that would have been a possible path. Call me old school but there is a view that workers rights are best defended and advanced by strong trade unions. If you don't subscribe  to that and believe that the EU is the vehicle then start campaigning to rejoin .


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

Badgers said:


> You think any of them were lied to?


All of the them. Cameron use of the veto was ignored according to the Uks Ambassador to the EU at the time


----------



## Anju (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not wanting to dismiss the  the big tent issues of the potential issues on small sellers on Amazon however the 'potential removal' of workers rights would be less of an issue if Labour and the TUC had pushed for them to be on the statute book as they are in some other European countries .The last labour government was for the opt out , 16 EU countries have opt outs and exemptions. If remain /second referendum hadn't wrecked Labours chances of being elected or at least avoiding the catastrophic defeat at the election then that would have been a possible path. Call me old school but there is a view that workers rights are best defended and advanced by strong trade unions. If you don't subscribe  to that and believe that the EU is the vehicle then start campaigning to rejoin .



I just don't see how the removal of rights/protections can be dismissed. If trade unions wouldn't / couldn't do anything to advance workers rights with legislation in place that would help them then it's ridiculous to claim things are going to change for the better now. Some EU countries have strong trade unions and / or decent levels of worker representation in large companies. We're moving away from not towards that and leaving the EU is part of that process.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

Harry Smiles said:


> A global delivery/logistics company



Anything on the twatter or news about it o can forward on?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

Anju said:


> I just don't see how the removal of rights/protections can be dismissed. If trade unions wouldn't / couldn't do anything to advance workers rights with legislation in place that would help them then it's ridiculous to claim things are going to change for the better now. Some EU countries have strong trade unions and / or decent levels of worker representation in large companies. We're moving away from not towards that and leaving the EU is part of that process.


I don't either. I haven't. Agreed and also in public sectors. The decline of our trade unions began way before the referendum, most notably under Thatcher and then Blair who were both for the EU.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I don't either. I haven't. Agreed and also in public sectors. The decline of our trade unions began way before the referendum, most notably under Thatcher and then Blair who were both for the EU.


Yeah, in or out of the supra state, the same neoliberal drivers force down pay and T&C, undermining one of the key 'Lexit' nostrums.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, in or out of the supra state, the same neoliberal drivers force down pay and T&C, undermining one of the key 'Lexit' nostrums.



The lexit arguments never had a good argument for whose meant to be driving lexit or arguing it’s cause because damn anyone even remotely willing to drive lexit, even Corbyn, is so far away from the levers of power they need binoculars


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The lexit arguments never had a good argument for whose meant to be driving lexit or arguing it’s cause because damn anyone even remotely willing to drive lexit, even Corbyn, is so far away from the levers of power they need binoculars


Yep. And with the benefit of hindsight, we can see that they have been driven further from those levers by the brexit process of the last four years. It's given us a rabidly r/w (even by their standards) tory govt with a big majority in the commons. And Labour is lurching back to the right in response.

I wouldn't claim to have known that would happen five years ago, but it was always a fear given that the brexiteers in the Tory party were always race-to-the-bottom wankers, and a leave vote was always going to energise that particular part of the populist right.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 19, 2021)

In the social media , I am seeing both pissed sides shouting that Corbyn is actually to blame for the current fuck up. I’m sure you can piece together each sides narrative on this. Is there no end to the evil of Corbyn ?


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 19, 2021)

From the perspective of right wing Brexiteers, they had forty years worth of deregulatory momentum behind them before this and most are well placed to avoid the major negative effects of Brexit.

The Lexit campaign was nothing more than wishing loudly on a star. Useful idiots I'm afraid. Hoping to evade EU rules on state aid that won't be forthcoming, calling for the rebuilding of a manufacturing / industrial sector largely wound down by the end of the last century and which is now done much more cheaply elsewhere. Calling for better wages and conditions for workers with EU immigration suppressed, just as the most toxic and criminal right wing gang in parliamentary history are poised to strip those rights away very gleefully.

Mind you the Remain side with its toxic mixture of "there is no alternative" complacency and smugness, and lack of empathy lost the referendum as much as Leave won it. As if folk who've had increasing amounts of nothing since the early nineties were going to care about the better off having to sell their second home in Tuscany and pay more for their bespoke Sicilian olives at the deli.

Brexit is shaping up to be a dreadful experience, the political equivalent of a hangover after fifteen cans of supermarket own brand lager. The thing is, hangovers go away eventually. Not so sure Brexit will anytime soon.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 19, 2021)

Anju said:


> I just don't see how the removal of rights/protections can be dismissed. If trade unions wouldn't / couldn't do anything to advance workers rights with legislation in place that would help them then it's ridiculous to claim things are going to change for the better now. Some EU countries have strong trade unions and / or decent levels of worker representation in large companies. We're moving away from not towards that and leaving the EU is part of that process.


The EU demanded the end of collective bargaining as a condition of membership for some entrants. Up the workers is not their mantra.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The EU demanded the end of collective bargaining as a condition of membership for some entrants. Up the workers is not their mantra.


Quite, this was only ever about how the superstructure over the neoliberal base was badged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The EU demanded the end of collective bargaining as a condition of membership for some entrants. Up the workers is not their mantra.


oh it is, when preceded by the word 'fuck'


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> In the social media , I am seeing both pissed sides shouting that Corbyn is actually to blame for the current fuck up. I’m sure you can piece together each sides narrative on this. Is there no end to the evil of Corbyn ?


there are days as yet undreamed of which have already been ruined by the corbyn


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 250051View attachment 250052



That was the problem with the last election...."which would not be compatible with the Government's manifesto commitments' you had one party arguing for ITS vison of what delivering on the referendum result vs a plethora of other parties fighting over how they would not.


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

Just got the following off my vintner (easiest way for me to get hold of red vinho verdi before you ask)



*Now that the BREXIT rules are clear for us as wine merchants and for the transport companies, we are opening the UK market for orders.*

Many of you have asked about the new rules and we share below all the information we have:

The products are now VAT excluded in our store and upon arrival it’s subject to the local 20% VAT tax.
All non-alcoholic products, the ones in our gourmet area, aren’t subject to any additional duty.
The alcoholic products are subject to excise duty and for wines up to 15% alcohol volume it’s 297.57 GBP per hectoliter, 2.23 GBP per bottle of 750ml and twice for a magnum bottle.
Sparkling wines have a different excise, it’s 381.15 GBP per hectoliter so it should be 2.86 GBP per bottle of 750ml.
A fortified wine such as a Port Wine will take 396.72 GBP per hectoliter so it’s 2.97 GBP per bottle of 750ml
As for spirits such as a Brandy or Gin, it will be 28.74 GBP per liter of alcohol volume, so if it’s a 40% alc. volume and a 700ml bottle, it should be 8.05 GBP.
Finally, the beers have a low excise. It’s 19.08 GBP per liter of alcohol, so it means that for a 5% alc. volume beer and 330ml bottle, it should be 0.31 GBP.
One of our best sellers to the UK market, the Vidigal Porta 6, before the BREXIT at 3.60 GBP plus shipping, it will be now 3.19 GBP plus 2.23 GBP excise and 20% VAT tax, so a total of 6.50 GBP per bottle.
The shipping cost is the same in terms of transport cost but it takes per order an extra fee of 9.79 GBP for the exportation customs dispatch so it means that if you buy more than one case of 12 bottles, you will save money since it’s a flat fee per order and not per case.
In the end a bottle of Vidigal Porta 6 that in the past was around 4.7 GBP with all taxes and shipping included, will be now between 7 and 8 GBP depending on the number of bottles ordered.
This information is very important because if a client refuses to pay the importation duties, the parcels will return to us and we will have to deduct the return costs to the value paid for the order.
The transit time to the UK is not yet stable because there are some delays in the customs clearance but this means also that some parcels can reach you without the payment of the local duties and taxes.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Just got the following off my vintner (easiest way for me to get hold of red vinho verdi before you ask)
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Whats the name of the vintner?


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Whats the name of the vintner?


Portugal Vineyards.  v good


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Portugal Vineyards.  v good



Ta, found a copy of the email on twatter so I can spread it about.


----------



## Anju (Jan 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The EU demanded the end of collective bargaining as a condition of membership for some entrants. Up the workers is not their mantra.



That may be correct but we're talking about brexit and in that context  workers will be worse off if/when the government take away or weaken the rights they have now.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> In the end a bottle of Vidigal Porta 6 that in the past was around 4.7 GBP with all taxes and shipping included, will be now between 7 and 8 GBP depending on the number of bottles ordered.


FFS.


----------



## Anju (Jan 19, 2021)

The ability to lower food standards on the quiet. 









						UK ministers gain power to allow lower-standard food imports
					

Trade bill vote rejects Lords amendment giving MPs greater scrutiny of trade deals




					www.theguardian.com
				




Of course these are all minor issues. Massive acceleration of  NHS privatisation is probably being hampered by covid but I'm sure they'll get that sorted soon and then we can all relax and stop worrying about how fucked we are because it will have passed the point at which it's possible to quantify.


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

Anju said:


> The ability to lower food standards on the quiet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Re Article.  How is this 'Take Back Control?'  this whole Brexit, what the fuck is having any input the direction of travel? Who is being taken into account?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2021)

Anju said:


> That may be correct but we're talking about brexit and in that context  workers will be worse off if/when the government take away or weaken the rights they have now.


Yes , if any govt takes away or weaken rights whether it be post Brexit or pre Brexit workers will be worse off . You might have noticed attempts at this pre Brexit , in fact you might have noticed it when no one had heard of Brexit .In fact it happens in the EU as well. Currently in the U.K. there’s a British Gas strike where workers are effectively being fired and rehired , same with Manchester Buses. Where’s their rights ?


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes , if any govt takes away or weaken rights whether it be post Brexit or pre Brexit workers will be worse off . You might have noticed attempts at this pre Brexit , in fact you might have noticed it when no one had heard of Brexit .In fact it happens in the EU as well. Currently in the U.K. there’s a British Gas strike where workers are effectively being fired and rehired , same with Manchester Buses. Where’s their rights ?


BT is balloting at the moment too


----------



## Anju (Jan 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Yes , if any govt takes away or weaken rights whether it be post Brexit or pre Brexit workers will be worse off . You might have noticed attempts at this pre Brexit , in fact you might have noticed it when no one had heard of Brexit .In fact it happens in the EU as well. Currently in the U.K. there’s a British Gas strike where workers are effectively being fired and rehired , same with Manchester Buses. Where’s their rights ?



I don't know the specifics of those disputes but scope for reducing rights is increased by brexit so no help to the British gas workers or Manchester bus drivers and most likely they will have less rights once the review, led by a minister who has published stuff in support of reducing them, has concluded.

I still don't see how leaving has helped workers, small businesses, retirees, holiday makers or any ordinary person. The most ambitious claims being made by pro brexit people are that things aren't worse, when they clearly are.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)




----------



## MrSki (Jan 19, 2021)

Lucky they haven't ruled out trade deals with countries committing genocide.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 19, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Lucky they haven't ruled out trade deals with countries committing genocide.



China in particular supposedly


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 19, 2021)

Enjoy your future rations of Mystery Meat





__





						UK ministers gain power to allow lower-standard food imports | Meat industry | The Guardian
					

Trade bill vote rejects Lords amendment giving MPs greater scrutiny of trade deals




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## teuchter (Jan 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Just got the following off my vintner (easiest way for me to get hold of red vinho verdi before you ask)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't this all extra money for the taxman and the NHS though? And it's only at the expense of people who want to drink fancy wine.


----------



## gosub (Jan 19, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Isn't this all extra money for the taxman and the NHS though? And it's only at the expense of people who want to drink fancy wine.



Yep. and no. Import duty will impact more the bargain stuff more than fancy, but wine is going to go up


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 20, 2021)

Anju said:


> I don't know the specifics of those disputes but scope for reducing rights is increased by brexit so no help to the British gas workers or Manchester bus drivers and most likely they will have less rights once the review, led by a minister who has published stuff in support of reducing them, has concluded.
> 
> I still don't see how leaving has helped workers, small businesses, retirees, holiday makers or any ordinary person. The most ambitious claims being made by pro brexit people are that things aren't worse, when they clearly are.


Your idea that somehow the EU protects workers rights needs to be examined a lot more tbh. Look at the French pensions dispute a little while ago and tell me how the EU protects workers right ? ,or the strikes at TAP in Portugal last year for example. All due to the EU's budgetary constraints on EU membership. The dismantling of workers rights ,or attempts to, is common both inside or outside. If the Tories have a go then the unions will have to either fold or resist. Its the 60 seat majority that's the potential fuse. Ask yourself the question how did the Tories end up with a 60 seat majority and a ten percent lead amongst working class voters over Labour?


----------



## Raheem (Jan 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Your idea that somehow the EU protects workers rights needs to be examined a lot more tbh. Look at the French pensions dispute a little while ago and tell me how the EU protects workers right ? ,or the strikes at TAP in Portugal last year for example. All due to the EU's budgetary constraints on EU membership. The dismantling of workers rights ,or attempts to, is common both inside or outside. If the Tories have a go then the unions will have to either fold or resist. Its the 60 seat majority that's the potential fuse. Ask yourself the question how did the Tories end up with a 60 seat majority and a ten percent lead amongst working class voters over Labour?


You're probably talking about something to do with membership of the Euro, rather than the EU. Even though the two things are obviously not unrelated, it's the latter that's relevent to the topic of the thread.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> You're probably talking about something to do with membership of the Euro, rather than the EU. Even though the two things are obviously not unrelated, it's the latter that's relevent to the topic of the thread.


No I'm talking about the EU and the idea that it protect workers rights. You are right the membership of the EU and the adopting the euro  are obviously not unrelated . All EU states with the exception of Denmark have to adopt the euro.  As you previously said  the EU is institutionally stronger without giving any more concessions .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Isn't this all extra money for the taxman and the NHS though? And it's only at the expense of people who want to drink fancy wine.


Define fancy wine. How does it differ materially from normal wine?

Extra money for the NHS? It's not 'extra money for the NHS'. It's not like for every pound of revenue a certain proportion goes to the NHS, the cops, training soldiers, pensions etc. The government says this year we'll spend X on the NHS, not x% of our income.


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Define fancy wine. How does it differ materially from normal wine?
> 
> Extra money for the NHS? It's not 'extra money for the NHS'. It's not like for every pound of revenue a certain proportion goes to the NHS, the cops, training soldiers, pensions etc. The government says this year we'll spend X on the NHS, not x% of our income.



Fancy wine, thats the stuff people buy to not drink.


----------



## prunus (Jan 20, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Isn't this all extra money for the taxman and the NHS though? And it's only at the expense of people who want to drink fancy wine.



I will admit I do like a glass of fancy wine, but even so I don't think there's a risk of wine snobbery in questioning whether a bottle that costs (or used to anyway) £4.70 counts as fancy.

In less sarcastic terms: This is the wine that almost everyone drinks (that drinks wine).  This is a huge increase in the cost of a bottle of basic wine that, contrary to your view there, is at the expense of the huge number of people who do _not_ drink fancy wine.  The people who drink fancy wine will only be marginally affected.   When you're paying £40 for a bottle it going up by £2 or thereabouts means you can now only afford 19 bottles where you could afford 20 before.   If you were paying £4.70 you can now afford about 14 bottles for the same price as 20.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 20, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Enjoy your future rations of Mystery Meat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Is mechanically recovered meat banned in the EU then?


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2021)

prunus said:


> I will admit I do like a glass of fancy wine, but even so I don't think there's a risk of wine snobbery in questioning whether a bottle that costs (or used to anyway) £4.70 counts as fancy.
> 
> In less sarcastic terms: This is the wine that almost everyone drinks (that drinks wine).  This is a huge increase in the cost of a bottle of basic wine that, contrary to your view there, is at the expense of the huge number of people who do _not_ drink fancy wine.  The people who drink fancy wine will only be marginally affected.   When you're paying £40 for a bottle it going up by £2 or thereabouts means you can now only afford 19 bottles where you could afford 20 before.   If you were paying £4.70 you can now afford about 14 bottles for the same price as 20.



I think he might have meant obscure rather than fancy.  But it'll be the same for people who buy their plonk in supermarkets once their logistics has rinsed through


----------



## Smangus (Jan 20, 2021)

Yes a £4.7 bottle rising to £6-7 (as per the example) is very fancy wine ....


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Yes a £4.7 bottle rising to £6-7 (as per the example) is very fancy wine ....


You can get some very drinkable wine for less than that, just don't bother sticking it in a rack  considering it an investment


----------



## two sheds (Jan 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> Fancy wine, thats the stuff people buy to not drink.


"Of the sparkling wines, the most famous is "Perth Pink". This is a bottle with a message in it, and the message is BEWARE! This is not a wine for drinking -- this is a wine for laying down and avoiding."


----------



## Anju (Jan 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Your idea that somehow the EU protects workers rights needs to be examined a lot more tbh. Look at the French pensions dispute a little while ago and tell me how the EU protects workers right ? ,or the strikes at TAP in Portugal last year for example. All due to the EU's budgetary constraints on EU membership. The dismantling of workers rights ,or attempts to, is common both inside or outside. If the Tories have a go then the unions will have to either fold or resist. Its the 60 seat majority that's the potential fuse. Ask yourself the question how did the Tories end up with a 60 seat majority and a ten percent lead amongst working class voters over Labour?



Not claiming that the EU is the sole protector of workers just that some additional protection was available when we were members and those look like they will be and were always likely to be attacked by our government. I can't see it as anything other than a step backwards with little chance of any action from labour or trade unions that might redress the balance. 

Is anyone actually claiming that the prospect of better pay, conditions, job security, employment equality are closer now? Is there anything being done by unions now to boost membership or inform people of their rights. At least in the EU there's some pro collective bargaining noises being made and plenty of member states with high levels of union membership and even sector wide agreements for a few. 

For us it's 9 years of Tory race to the bottom.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> You can get some very drinkable wine for less than that, just don't bother sticking it in a rack  considering it an investment


Less than £4.70? The likes of Lidl and Aldi do _just about drinkable_ wines sometimes for a bit less than that. Not everyone has access to a Lidl or an Aldi, though. Most offies don't sell a single bottle of anything, drinkable or not, at that price.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 20, 2021)

No one is arguing  that the EU was any kind of workers paradise. The only certainty we can pick out of the yeah buttery theme is that things will not improve for the vast majority of workers under the post EU UK environment . But this was never moot.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 20, 2021)

None of this affects wines from South America, Australia, USA etc. though, many of which are very reasonably priced and of far greater quality than Euro-plonk. Don't know about South America, but heard recently how Australian wine has a lower carbon footprint than French wine as it is not shipped in bottles, but rather bottled when it arrives in the UK.


----------



## gosub (Jan 20, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Less than £4.70? The likes of Lidl and Aldi do _just about drinkable_ wines sometimes for a bit less than that. Not everyone has access to a Lidl or an Aldi, though. Most offies don't sell a single bottle of anything, drinkable or not, at that price.



You should be the last person bitching about the cost of wine, can't you make champagne out of Perrier or some shit


----------



## teuchter (Jan 20, 2021)

prunus said:


> I will admit I do like a glass of fancy wine, but even so I don't think there's a risk of wine snobbery in questioning whether a bottle that costs (or used to anyway) £4.70 counts as fancy.
> 
> In less sarcastic terms: This is the wine that almost everyone drinks (that drinks wine).  This is a huge increase in the cost of a bottle of basic wine that, contrary to your view there, is at the expense of the huge number of people who do _not_ drink fancy wine.  The people who drink fancy wine will only be marginally affected.   When you're paying £40 for a bottle it going up by £2 or thereabouts means you can now only afford 19 bottles where you could afford 20 before.   If you were paying £4.70 you can now afford about 14 bottles for the same price as 20.


I don't really drink wine at all so I don't care.

I think the price should be put up even more, to fund the NHS even better.

I hope there's going to be a big tax on all that French cheese that smells awful, too. That money can be used to build social housing.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 20, 2021)

Anju said:


> Not claiming that the EU is the sole protector of workers just that some additional protection was available when we were members and those look like they will be and were always likely to be attacked by our government. I can't see it as anything other than a step backwards with little chance of any action from labour or trade unions that might redress the balance.
> 
> Is anyone actually claiming that the prospect of better pay, conditions, job security, employment equality are closer now? Is there anything being done by unions now to boost membership or inform people of their rights. At least in the EU there's some pro collective bargaining noises being made and plenty of member states with high levels of union membership and even sector wide agreements for a few.
> 
> For us it's 9 years of Tory race to the bottom.


I don’t recall anyone claiming that leaving the EU would automatically  lead to the prospect of better pay, conditions, job security or employment security. Nor can I remember to be fair many arguments  that staying in the EU would lead to improving them . Covid 19 in particular has shown up the variance of employment rights right across Europe and how fragmented organised labour resistance has become. 
The best organised trade unions in Europe have tended to have been in Germany and in France both of whom have done well out of the EU particularly Germany .Unions in  the Southern European states in particular have understandably badly damaged by austerity and brutal attempts to ‘modernise ‘ the labour market .


----------



## mauvais (Jan 20, 2021)

No. Instead there were consistent warnings that the Tories' ambitions and ability to worsen those conditions significantly outpaced those of the EU's, and oh what a surprise here we are.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 20, 2021)

One of the Independent's better headlines









						Boris Johnson likens Brexit gains to city paved with gold that did not exist
					

Prime minister rejects industry’s characterisation of Brexit deal as fishing sell-out




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> Boris Johnson has promised British fishermen a Brexit "El Dorado" once problems caused by his new border bureaucracy have been dealt with.


----------



## contadino (Jan 20, 2021)

'Absolute carnage': EU hauliers reject UK jobs over Brexit rules

Hauliers are refusing to bring consignments from Europe to the UK due to a new requirement to underwrite Vat and tariffs.

Shrugging off price increases on bikes or wine is easy because they're a bit middle class, but factories running dry could be a little more of a wake-up call.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 20, 2021)

gosub said:


> You should be the last person bitching about the cost of wine, can't you make champagne out of Perrier or some shit


That's the grown-up version. I mostly just fall over and shit myself.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> One of the Independent's better headlines
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He knows El Dorado never existed right? So we’re clear here because by that metric the fisherman already have died in pursuit of a dream that didn’t exist


----------



## two sheds (Jan 20, 2021)

Mind you can we really say it doesn't exist? The first hits I get when I search El Dorado are "Buy El Dorado at Amazon online" and "Best prices for El Dorado on Ebay"


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 20, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Mind you can we really say it doesn't exist? The first hits I get when I search El Dorado are "Buy El Dorado at Amazon online" and "Best prices for El Dorado on Ebay"



Just remembered the short lived series.


God help us all


----------



## two sheds (Jan 20, 2021)

You get similar results if you enter 'indigestion' or 'bunions', mind.


----------



## Hollis (Jan 20, 2021)

.


----------



## gosub (Jan 21, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> He knows El Dorado never existed right? So we’re clear here because by that metric the fisherman already have died in pursuit of a dream that didn’t exist



El Dorado  never did Britan any harm. And a hell of a lot of gold DID come out of South America, not all of it ended up in Spain


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 21, 2021)

gosub said:


> El Dorado  never did Britan any harm. And a hell of a lot of gold DID come out of South America, not all of it ended up in Spain


piracy for the forward looking minded


----------



## teqniq (Jan 21, 2021)

Unbelievably petty:









						UK and EU in row over bloc's diplomatic status
					

The EU's top representative in London is not being given the same privileges as other ambassadors.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Unbelievably petty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


two world wars and one denied case of diplomatic immunity


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 21, 2021)

So we sent over some presents to Germany, cost of presents £40 and they had to pay €10 vat plus €6 handling charge. Welcome to brexit.


----------



## editor (Jan 21, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> So we sent over some presents to Germany, cost of presents £40 and they had to pay €10 vat plus €6 handling charge. Welcome to brexit.


It's a clusterfuck. And yet some people still insist that Brexit is a great idea. 



> Ellie Huddleston, a 26-year-old Londoner, thought she would treat herself to some new work clothes in the January sales.
> Having spotted a bargain, she placed an order for a coat and a number of blouses from two of her favourite clothes brands based in Europe.
> But both deliveries were delayed, held up in customs checks for at least a week, she says.
> She was surprised when she then received a text from courier company DPD, containing a link asking her to pay £58 in customs duties, VAT and additional charges for her £180 order.
> On top of that, the UPS courier for the second parcel showed up at her door several days later, asking for an extra payment of £82 for her £200 coat.












						Brexit: 'I was asked to pay an extra £82 for my £200 coat'
					

Shoppers buying items from Europe now have to pay customs or VAT charges on those above a certain value.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jan 21, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> So we sent over some presents to Germany, cost of presents £40 and they had to pay €10 vat plus €6 handling charge. Welcome to brexit.


i really dont understand the value limit on when this kicks in - is there a precise one? seems random so far


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i really dont understand the value limit on when this kicks in - is there a precise one? seems random so far


£39. It's the same as buying from non-eu countries.

Edit to say: Alcohol, tobacco and perfume of any value are subject to duty too.


----------



## crossthebreeze (Jan 21, 2021)

editor said:


> It's a clusterfuck. And yet some people still insist that Brexit is a great idea.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the gov.uk page that should explain the VAT, customs, and excise charges is out of date: Tax and customs for goods sent from abroad.  The replacement page they send you to only deals with VAT and is for businesses selling goods, not people buying goods or receiving gifts from abroad.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 21, 2021)

OK this is the end we need to scrap this fucking Brexit nonsense, It's 'disastrous', perishable goods going to shit 









						Crisps lorry held up for two days by Northern Irish Brexit checks, MPs told
					

Incident cited as one example of the ‘disastrous’ impact of new rules on goods crossing Irish Sea




					www.theguardian.com
				




WHERE ARE OUR FUCKING CRISPS???


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> China in particular supposedly



Apparently not a problem for the EU and Germany in particular in wanting a trade deal with China


----------



## Winot (Jan 21, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> So we sent over some presents to Germany, cost of presents £40 and they had to pay €10 vat plus €6 handling charge. Welcome to brexit.



Can you not just buy from Amazon in Germany?


----------



## Supine (Jan 21, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2021)

Supine said:


> .


Good point well made


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2021)

Winot said:


> Can you not just buy from Amazon in Germany?


Yeh if you wanted to enrich bezos further


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 22, 2021)

The guardian attempts a brief summary:









						EU website purchases: the import charges UK customers have to pay
					

Consumers now face UK VAT, rather than local rates, as well as customs duty and courier admin charges




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

Will more people buy coats made in the UK now?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

Brexit has given competitive edge on car battery tariffs, says Nissan chief
					

Owner of UK’s largest car factory to push ahead with new Qashqai and says UK leaving the EU has been positive for the company




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Is mechanically recovered meat banned in the EU then?



No. Nor, if memory serves are sow stalls, veal, foie gras...


----------



## prunus (Jan 22, 2021)

Well some good news here 

Brexit has given competitive edge on car battery tariffs, says Nissan chief

Battery tariffs (or the lack of them) mean more production of some Nissans in Sunderland.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Will more people buy coats made in the UK now?



Will the UK make coats again, and not boohoo style shit ones but actual coats that'll keep the rain out?

There's always these true Brits





__





						HOME | Workhouse England Mens Clothing | Made In England
					

Making traditional mens clothing for over 20 years. Each garment is qunique and inspired by stories from the past. Made in England made for life.




					workhouse-england.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Will the UK make coats again, and not boohoo style shit ones but actual coats that'll keep the rain out?
> 
> There's always these true Brits
> 
> ...


I looked at the site. I got pissed off. Fucks sake.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 22, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> The guardian attempts a brief summary:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Project fear. Scaremongering saying it's going to be a disaster.
Here we are.
The welsh (is that a dragon or a turkey?) voted for leave,  Hollyhead the only really big employer in the area is now deserted, Irish lorries are going direct, less risk and paperwork.

On the plus side, drugs should get a lot cheaper as they are just waving in the lorries to the UK at the moment.  Looks like we are going to need them.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 22, 2021)

Am I the only one who keeps misreading the thread titles as brexit AWARDS ?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Will more people buy coats made in the UK now?





Artaxerxes said:


> Will the UK make coats again, and not boohoo style shit ones but actual coats that'll keep the rain out?
> 
> There's always these true Brits
> 
> ...



Aren't Barbours made in Newcastle?
Really nice coats. We shall all dress like gentry


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Will more people buy coats made in the UK now?





Artaxerxes said:


> Will the UK make coats again, and not boohoo style shit ones but actual coats that'll keep the rain out?



It's hard as so much isn't fully made in one country anymore, my current walking coat is a Aigle shooting jacket, Aigle is French but the jacket was made in Bagladesh. It is coming up for 7 years old and needs replacing, I have seen a nice Alan Paine replacement, Alan Paine are English, founded in Godalming no less, but of course their shit is made in the East too. Also looking for a new bike, narrowed it down to a Commencal (Andorra), Propain (Germany) or Whyte (England). However all of these the majority of the components, including the frames are made in the East (Taiwan mostly for frames). Seems the only way to buy British now is to buy a Nissan...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 22, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Aren't Barbours made in Newcastle?
> Really nice coats. We shall all dress like gentry




Only some of the waxed jackets are made in the North East (plus some hats and scarves made in Scotland), everything else is made abroad, including a number of waxed jackets.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Only some of the waxed jackets are made in the North East (plus some hats and scarves made in Scotland), everything else is made abroad, including a number of waxed jackets.



 ffs

I bet their boss campaigned for Leave too.
(no idea really, that's a joke, but wouldn't be surprised)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

We used to make so many brands right here in the UK. Lots of companies showed no loyalty to their workforces and hived off production to ultra low wage countries whilst still trading off of their UK heritage. 

All in the name of profit. 

Well many of those same brands will either give up on the UK market (as they will cost more) or relocate production back to the UK.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We used to make so many brands right here in the UK. Lots of companies showed no loyalty to their workforces and hived off production to ultra low wage countries whilst still trading off of their UK heritage.
> 
> All in the name of profit.
> 
> Well many of those same brands will either give up on the UK market (as they will cost more) or relocate production back to the UK.












						The hypocrisy of Burberry's 'Made in Britain' appeal | Carole Cadwalladr
					

Carole Cadwalladr: How has the 'luxury brand' got the audacity to trade on its pride in Britishness when most of its clothes are made abroad?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The hypocrisy of Burberry's 'Made in Britain' appeal | Carole Cadwalladr
> 
> 
> Carole Cadwalladr: How has the 'luxury brand' got the audacity to trade on its pride in Britishness when most of its clothes are made abroad?
> ...


See so many shoe makers and even some Saville Row suits.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

But if the article about a 200 hundred quid coat from the EU now costing 280 is true, coats will be made here again soon enough.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's hard as so much isn't fully made in one country anymore, my current walking coat is a Aigle shooting jacket, Aigle is French but the jacket was made in Bagladesh. It is coming up for 7 years old and needs replacing, I have seen a nice Alan Paine replacement, Alan Paine are English, founded in Godalming no less, but of course their shit is made in the East too. Also looking for a new bike, narrowed it down to a Commencal (Andorra), Propain (Germany) or Whyte (England). However all of these the majority of the components, including the frames are made in the East (Taiwan mostly for frames). Seems the only way to buy British now is to buy a Nissan...



Even the Nissan is mostly reassembled components.

I've just googled clothing made in the UK and there's a few things out there but not much that isn't above 200 quid and even less that doesn't have a whiff of tweed or suits about it. 









						Top 30 UK-made Menswear Brands - Make it British
					

Stay on top of your sartorial game and support British design and manufacturing by visiting the stylish, quality menswear brands on our list.




					makeitbritish.co.uk


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Even the Nissan is mostly reassembled components.



Nissan announced this morning that they are transferring the manufacture of Leaf batteries from Japan to Sunderland as a direct result of Brexit.








						Nissan will build batteries in UK to sustain Sunderland plant | Autocar
					

Localised battery production means Leaf can continue to be built in UK without incurring tariffs at export




					www.autocar.co.uk


----------



## mwgdrwg (Jan 22, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Unbelievably petty:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's all too believable, unfortunately. What a bunch of immature, childish, idiots


Sunray said:


> Project fear. Scaremongering saying it's going to be a disaster.
> Here we are.
> The welsh (is that a dragon or a turkey?) voted for leave,  Hollyhead the only really big employer in the area is now deserted, Irish lorries are going direct, less risk and paperwork.
> 
> On the plus side, drugs should get a lot cheaper as they are just waving in the lorries to the UK at the moment.  Looks like we are going to need them.


I didn't vote leave! 

I live on the island, there's a massive miles-long contraflow on the A55 here, making it a real pain to drive to my nearest supermarket and town. Half the dual-carriageway is blocked off to be used as a lorry car park. The joke is (as you say) that the number of lorries has plummeted and it is so very quiet on the roads compared to pre-Brexit.

Holyhead was already one of the most deprived places in the UK, I didn't think it could actually get worse, but here we are.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But if the article about a 200 hundred quid coat from the EU now costing 280 is true, coats will be made here again soon enough.



_lightbulb moment_

So that's why "no deal" was a serious possibility. The idea that WTO-rules tariffs on imported goods would give UK-based manufacturers a market to undercut with their tariff-free goods.

_O yeah now you'll work hard you idle bastards!_


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2021)

Another major triumph delivered by Brexit.



> Adam Mansell, boss of the UK Fashion & Textile Association (UKFT), said it's "cheaper for retailers to write off the cost of the goods than dealing with it all, either abandoning or potentially burning them."
> Since 1 January, lots of European customers have been presented with an unexpected customs invoice when signing for goods they've ordered from the UK. These new customs charges are a result of the new EU trade deal with the UK.
> 
> 
> ...





> Ulla Vitting Richards runs her sustainable fashion brand VILDNIS from the UK. She has stopped exporting to her fastest growing market, the EU, because of the new customs processes.
> "I've been involved in logistics before. I expected it to be bad and I am used to shipping to the USA which is difficult. But this is just mind-blowing," she said.
> "Every day there is another layer. In the first two weeks we couldn't get answers. For two years we were told to get ready for Brexit. But for these we couldn't prepare."
> She added: "I don't think we can increase prices but we might just have to say that we can't make the business with the EU work. It is a real shame. There is a huge interest in sustainable fashion in Europe and we might have to walk away from it."


And let's take this jobs to Germany:



> Ulla did speak with the Department for International Trade for help and advice. She was told that setting up a subsidiary distribution hub in Europe might be a good idea: "He told me we'd be best off moving stock to a warehouse in Germany and get them to handle it."











						Brexit: Retailers warn they could burn goods stuck in EU
					

UK retailers may abandon goods EU customers want to return because it is cheaper than bringing them home.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

editor said:


> Another major triumph delivered by Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So this is about customer returns?


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So this is about customer returns?


Try reading the article, It's about customers being asked to pay hefty and unaffordable additional import fees, and small businesses being utterly shafted because of all the pointless red tape brought on by shitty Brexit. Perhaps you'll start to care when it's you being affected.



> *Britons buying from EU websites hit with £100 customs bills*
> Parcel firms demanding payment before delivering items ordered from European websites since Brexit
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Brexit has given competitive edge on car battery tariffs, says Nissan chief
> 
> 
> Owner of UK’s largest car factory to push ahead with new Qashqai and says UK leaving the EU has been positive for the company
> ...


Claiming this is a benefit of Brexit is a bit disingenuous, the idea that the whole thing has been conceived and planned out in the last  four weeks (since the deal was signed) is definitely a stretch. Whilst welcome there is no reason to believe it wouldn't have happened if we had stayed in the EU, whereas signing a deal rather than going for no-deal has prevented it from not happening. So far there are no signs at all of positives that are purely down to Brexit.


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Claiming this is a benefit of Brexit is a bit disingenuous, the idea that the whole thing has been conceived and planned out in the last  four weeks (since the deal was signed) is definitely a stretch. Whilst welcome there is no reason to believe it wouldn't have happened if we had stayed in the EU, whereas signing a deal rather than going for no-deal has prevented it from not happening. So far there are no signs at all of positives that are purely down to Brexit.



You know how the 20th Century oil was a bit important and had a bit of an influence on how the world went round. I sort of get the feeling C21 it be thorophos batteries.  And you know how  in that oil bit Brent crude was a quality product, Cornish thorium appears to be similar.  AND looks like be outside EU tarriff control.  

Np signs at all of positive that are purely down to Brexit you say...What are you attributing EU's handling of the Astra Zenica vaccine to? (granted shows of petty petulance are hardly positive)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

editor said:


> Try reading the article, It's about customers being asked to pay hefty and unaffordable additional import fees, and small businesses being utterly shafted because of all the pointless red tape brought on by shitty Brexit. Perhaps you'll start to care when it's you being affected.


You quoted a different guardian article entirely.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You quoted a different guardian article entirely.


brexit blindness


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

Airbus have been very quiet. Its been 3 weeks since they welcomed the deal and said they would analyse the consequences


----------



## editor (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You quoted a different guardian article entirely.


Yet both detail the exact same problem relating to Brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)

Is this still on TV?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 22, 2021)

I would be as sceptical of the honesty of bosses of multinationals citing brexit as a reason for investment in the UK now as I was when those same bosses of multinationals previously cited brexit as a reason not to invest. A lot of this is cynical positioning in order to get what they want from the government.


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is this still on TV?
> View attachment 250514


the program or the presenter?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> the program or the presenter?


The latter. I was thinking perhaps there was a market for a post Brexit version


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The latter. I was thinking perhaps there was a market for a post Brexit version


the european commission paid for her to make a spoof brexit version of 'weakest link' which is floating round diplomatic circles in brussels where there's a boris johnson lookalike wearing a union jack waistcoat flunking the questions asked and finally being told 'you are the weakest link, goodbye'.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the european commission paid for her to make a spoof brexit version of 'weakest link' which is floating round diplomatic circles in brussels where there's a boris johnson lookalike wearing a union jack waistcoat flunking the questions asked and finally being told 'you are the weakest link, goodbye'.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> You know how the 20th Century oil was a bit important and had a bit of an influence on how the world went round. I sort of get the feeling C21 it be thorophos batteries.  And you know how  in that oil bit Brent crude was a quality product, Cornish thorium appears to be similar.  AND looks like be outside EU tarriff control.
> 
> Np signs at all of positive that are purely down to Brexit you say...What are you attributing EU's handling of the Astra Zenica vaccine to? (granted shows of petty petulance are hardly positive)


I  would attribute the EU's handling of vaccination down to the clumsy bureacracy that seems to handicap so much of what the EU does. But what has that got to do either positive or negative with Brexit? Anymore than the fact that the UK seems to be making decent progress on vaccination is anything to do with Brexit either.


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I  would attribute the EU's handling of vaccination down to the clumsy bureacracy that seems to handicap so much of what the EU does. But what has that got to do either positive or negative with Brexit? Anymore than the fact that the UK seems to be making decent progress on vaccination is anything to do with Brexit either.



So Brexit has had nothing to do with vaccines being cleared in the UK but not in EU and Brexit has had nothing to do with UK being in receipt of vaccines ahead of the EU's pooled approach.   Bollocks


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I would be as sceptical of the honesty of bosses of multinationals citing brexit as a reason for investment in the UK now as I was when those same bosses of multinationals previously cited brexit as a reason not to invest. A lot of this is cynical positioning in order to get what they want from the government.



At this point I'd rather Nissan fuck off tbh because they've been pissing about threatening to leave or promising to stay for decades.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> At this point I'd rather Nissan fuck off tbh because they've been pissing about threatening to leave or promising to stay for decades.


Punish those leave voters eh?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Punish those leave voters eh?



Not really, just fed up of Nissan weaponising jobs to get what it wants.


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Not really, just fed up of Nissan weaponising jobs to get what it wants.



They were a lot less guilty of that than other manufacturers during the Brexit referendum


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> They were a lot less guilty of that than other manufacturers during the Brexit referendum


for six months they took a break while other companies stepped up to take their place


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> They were a lot less guilty of that than other manufacturers during the Brexit referendum


That's because they already had a deal with the UK govt:






__





						Nissan was offered secret state aid to cope with Brexit, minister concedes | Nissan | The Guardian
					

Business secretary vowed to maintain manufacturers’ capacity to trade with EU




					amp.theguardian.com
				





I bet they've been given more sweeteners to get some good news out.


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> That's because they already had a deal with the UK govt:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That letter was 4 months after the referendum


----------



## contadino (Jan 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But if the article about a 200 hundred quid coat from the EU now costing 280 is true, coats will be made here again soon enough.



Not if the cost to produce is £300.

Or maybe UK workers enjoying the same conditions as those in Bangladesh or Vietnam? That's something to look forward to...


----------



## Winot (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> So Brexit has had nothing to do with vaccines being cleared in the UK but not in EU and Brexit has had nothing to do with UK being in receipt of vaccines ahead of the EU's pooled approach.   Bollocks



So tell us - in what way was Brexit responsible?


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 22, 2021)

contadino said:


> Not if the cost to produce is £300.
> 
> Or maybe UK workers enjoying the same conditions as those in Bangladesh or Vietnam? That's something to look forward to...


Well if the coat was made under those conditions then noone should be buying it, whatever country the workers are in.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 22, 2021)

contadino said:


> Not if the cost to produce is £300.
> 
> Or maybe UK workers enjoying the same conditions as those in Bangladesh or Vietnam? That's something to look forward to...



The coat probably cost 20p to produce.


----------



## Sunray (Jan 22, 2021)

If you are a major importer and order 10000 coats over my 1 coat, I suspect the rules for them will be very different.

Who was it that thought its totally sensible to get the person you're buying from in another country to pay UK tax?


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

Winot said:


> So tell us - in what way was Brexit responsible?


The UK regulator Brexit has created is more willing to take Big Pharma's data at face value which is why UK has ended up clearing more vaccines more quickly. I think it has also made EU more dot every I cross every t with regards the Oxford vaccine than it would have been had it been developed by reserach scientists at one of the EU's most prestigious University's.  

Pooled approach is 20-33 %  cheaper per dose, but paying for priority makes more sense given the economic fallout from every other aspect of the pandemic.  Pooled approach is fraying at the edges  as a result.  Not particularly into glorifying queue barging, fortunately the vaccine thing adds another story. UK approach is leading to 300million Indians predicted to be vaccinated by mid July and is already arriving in Bhutan,, Maldives... The whloe Brexit/ Covd thing looks to have  got the UK back into pharma manufacter as well.  World Service was saying last summer we only really had r&d production capacity, capable of 2litres of the stuff.  Read in an article on the fire at the New Delhi plant that all the UK is being made here so must be new capacity.


----------



## Anju (Jan 22, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Nissan announced this morning that they are transferring the manufacture of Leaf batteries from Japan to Sunderland as a direct result of Brexit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They've been able to adapt their supply chain to meet the country of origin requirements so yes it's sort of because of brexit but there was nothing stopping them from moving battery production pre brexit. They are refering to competitive advantage against other UK based firms who aren't able to manufacture batteries here, making meeting the terms of the brexit deal harder / more costly. Not sure that's such good news.

Average investment in UK motor industry over the last 4 years is down 71% on the average for the previous 5 (yes lots of other factors are available). We have managed to hold on to a factory we already had but what happens next isn't so clear. We don't have much car battery production capacity here. 1.9 gigawatt hours at the Sunderland plant, though no idea what else but certainly nothing large scale. We have one group currently raising funds, mostly secured, for a manufacturing plant, 10 gigawatt hours then 20 more. Tesla chose to manufacture in the EU and a Swedish company will have 32 gigawatt hour annual capacity by 2023. There are at least a couple of other major manufacturers setting up in EU countries. 

I can't see how brexit makes us more attractive to battery manufacturers and without battery capacity we won't have a motor industry long term.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 22, 2021)

Cracking example of the "_which favour of shit sandwich would you like?__" _binary "choice" we were offered:



All the while the UK was in the club; UK jurisdiction tax havens...fine; now the UK has left...MEPs vote to invite the 27 to add them to the blacklist.

Ah the integrity of it all.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 22, 2021)

Right decision made eventually


----------



## brogdale (Jan 22, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Right decision made eventually


Yeah, maybe...but a nice little example of the chronic democratic deficit at the heart of the entity...the Parliament votes, but the actual decision will be made elsewhere. The EU in a nutshell.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Cracking example of the "_which favour of shit sandwich would you like?__" _binary "choice" we were offered:
> 
> View attachment 250560
> 
> ...


The Cayman Islands were on the blacklist for a few months last year, but then they were removed. Presumably, they are completely reformed now. The system works!


----------



## gosub (Jan 22, 2021)

result for the Dutch Antilles


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 22, 2021)

I love the name _Antilles_.

Antillia - Wikipedia


----------



## two sheds (Jan 22, 2021)

Where Antilly Lace comes from


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 22, 2021)

_chantilly_, churely?


----------



## two sheds (Jan 22, 2021)

That's the one


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, maybe...but a nice little example of the chronic democratic deficit at the heart of the entity...the Parliament votes, but the actual decision will be made elsewhere. The EU in a nutshell.


article with more detail here








						EU tax haven blacklist not catching the worst offenders
					

“By calling the EU list of tax havens ‘confusing and inefficient’, the Parliament tells it like it is. While the list can be a good tool, member states forgot something when composing it: actual tax havens”




					www.maltatoday.com.mt


----------



## Supine (Jan 22, 2021)

gosub said:


> The UK regulator Brexit has created is more willing to take Big Pharma's data at face value which is why UK has ended up clearing more vaccines more quickly. I think it has also made EU more dot every I cross every t with regards the Oxford vaccine than it would have been had it been developed by reserach scientists at one of the EU's most prestigious University's.
> 
> Pooled approach is 20-33 %  cheaper per dose, but paying for priority makes more sense given the economic fallout from every other aspect of the pandemic.  Pooled approach is fraying at the edges  as a result.  Not particularly into glorifying queue barging, fortunately the vaccine thing adds another story. UK approach is leading to 300million Indians predicted to be vaccinated by mid July and is already arriving in Bhutan,, Maldives... The whloe Brexit/ Covd thing looks to have  got the UK back into pharma manufacter as well.  World Service was saying last summer we only really had r&d production capacity, capable of 2litres of the stuff.  Read in an article on the fire at the New Delhi plant that all the UK is being made here so must be new capacity.



That is all absolutely completely wrong I'm afraid


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2021)

Scope for vegan sales to increase under Brexit 









						Vegan EU-compliant sandwiches to be handed to hauliers en route to continent
					

Five hundred meals to be given out in Kent on Saturday




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Scope for vegan sales to increase under Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Christ theres going to be some pissed off truckers.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 22, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jan 23, 2021)

Supine said:


> That is all absolutely completely wrong I'm afraid


Any facts to quote or just an assertion?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


>



Fuck it, I'll buy some, I love Cheshire cheese.  I might not be able to solve the entire brexit conundrum just by eating English cheese  but happy to give it a go


----------



## Smangus (Jan 23, 2021)

I thought the reason the UK approved vaccines quicker was because the data was examined at every stage of development rather than being left to the end like the Europeans do. so its a question of process not anything else.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 23, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I thought the reason the UK approved vaccines quicker was because the data was examined at every stage of development rather than being left to the end like the Europeans do. so its a question of process not anything else.


A change in process afforded by leaving the eu.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 23, 2021)

The Pfizer vaccine was approved while we were still following EU rules. They just jumped the gun.


----------



## bimble (Jan 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Fuck it, I'll buy some, I love Cheshire cheese.  I might not be able to solve the entire brexit conundrum just by eating English cheese  but happy to give it a go


It’s french now, that cheese. 








						Cheshire cheesemaker says business left with £250,000 'Brexit hole'
					

Simon Spurrell says his firm lost 20% of sales and will switch £1m investment to France




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any facts to quote or just an assertion?











						Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact
					

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.




					fullfact.org


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s french now, that cheese.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Oh la la. Faites passer le Wensleydale s'il vous plait....


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 23, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s french now, that cheese.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Do the fuckers not have enough of their own already   

Hope we get more Yarg out of this


----------



## Supine (Jan 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A change in process afforded by leaving the eu.



No. Brexit had no impact on that.


----------



## gosub (Jan 23, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> The Pfizer vaccine was approved while we were still following EU rules. They just jumped the gun.



Technically, so was the Astra Zenica.  MHRA gave approval on 30/12/20.  EMA received application 12/1/21 indicated might give approval 29/1/21


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Do the fuckers not have enough of their own already
> 
> Hope we get more Yarg out of this


We're going to get more arg out of this and more yar as West country mariners turn to piracy


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2021)

Feel the sovereignty!


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2021)

Brexit regret


----------



## gosub (Jan 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> Airbus have been very quiet. Its been 3 weeks since they welcomed the deal and said they would analyse the consequences


Airbus Broughton's planned production ramp-up slowed by continued impact of the pandemic.  From the look of that, they've surfed it with Covid being the bigger impacter


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 23, 2021)

not laughing at anyone impacted by this. ffs


----------



## Supine (Jan 23, 2021)

The UK got unplugged from the European databases and system for detecting falsified medicines in the supply chain.

This means the UK is the easiest country in Europe for criminals to supply fake medicines. Go Brexit...





__





						FMD to be turned off in GB from January 1 - DDA - Dispensing Doctors' Association
					

Community pharmacies using Falsified Medicines Directive (FMD) systems should...




					dispensingdoctor.org


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, maybe...but a nice little example of the chronic democratic deficit at the heart of the entity...the Parliament votes, but the actual decision will be made elsewhere. The EU in a nutshell.


i think you're having a fucking laugh if you think that the uk's institutions are any different.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Feel the sovereignty!



You should eat more fish, do your bit.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 23, 2021)

I am just back from Deptford Market. A big fish stall I have used for ages. I got 3 bass (farmed). Not much available from the UK. 
Billingsgate is full of imported fish.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 23, 2021)

Brexit tariffs totalling £100,000 slapped on Fairtrade bananas from Africa
					

Exclusive: Liz Truss under pressure to explain why punishing levies being charged - despite announcement that UK-Ghana deal was struck




					www.independent.co.uk
				




Government being utter arseholes again now there's another surprise.



> The Department for International Trade was unable to say when tariffs would be lifted – and blamed Ghana for failing to “engage with us fully until it was too late”.
> 
> “We share the Ghanaian government’s concern for their banana industry, and that is one of the reasons why we made an early and generous proposal to Ghana that would have guaranteed their continued and lasting access to the UK market, but they chose not to take this take up,” a spokesperson said.
> 
> “We are glad Ghana is working with us to reach an agreement, and the restoration of our trading terms is in sight. It is the responsibility of both our countries to work to resolve this issue as soon as possible.”



and why did Ghana not take it up?



> Ghana argued a rollover deal would have meant agreeing a different tariff for UK goods than its neighbours, undermining that customs union and badly damaging relationships.



Government fulfilling their promises as usual though ...


> Back in 2017, then-trade secretary Liam Fox promised exporters that “nothing would be done to jeopardise trade with Africa”, as Brexit was carried out, Mr Kporye has said.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Brexit tariffs totalling £100,000 slapped on Fairtrade bananas from Africa
> 
> 
> Exclusive: Liz Truss under pressure to explain why punishing levies being charged - despite announcement that UK-Ghana deal was struck
> ...


it's not that they're utter arseholes which is the surprise, you really take that as given. it's the way they seem so completely clueless, that there's no connection between what they say and what happens. 'if anyone tells you to fill in a form tell them to contact the prime minister and i will direct them to throw it in the bin'. cue a plethora of forms. 'we have a free trade agreement with ghana' cue tariffs  they are acompetent arseholes, they have no competency whatsoever, if there is a left hand the right hand hasn't heard of it. if any one of us here performed in our jobs as this utter shower do in theirs we would have had a p45 a long time back. hopefully they'll at some point soon be handed a walther p45 with one in the chamber. and maybe a glass of scotch to steady their nerves.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 23, 2021)

I agree with all of that (and breathe ...) 

I was joking about it being a surprise though


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I agree with all of that (and breathe ...)
> 
> I was joking about it being a surprise though


yeh governments being arseholes are never usually a surprise but this shower of shit take it to levels which were previously unknown and had never been believed to exist by even the most speculative of philosophers.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Fuck it, I'll buy some, I love Cheshire cheese.  I might not be able to solve the entire brexit conundrum just by eating English cheese  but happy to give it a go



Just don't bother with the Somerset Brie that the nationalist types were banging on about a while back:


----------



## TopCat (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh governments being arseholes are never usually a surprise but this shower of shit take it to levels which were previously unknown and had never been believed to exist by even the most speculative of philosophers.


I dunno. The UK govt around when world war one broke out were so shit thousands of kids starved.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I dunno. The UK govt around when world war one broke out were so shit thousands of kids starved.


this government's managed to keep many thousands of kids hungry while presiding over the deaths of almost twice as many people as died in air raids and other enemy attacks on the uk in the whole of the second world war. and frankly i don't think they've even broken a sweat yet.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I dunno. The UK govt around when world war one broke out were so shit thousands of kids starved.



we're about halfway there. and about 10-15% of the population have had the disease (the mail in december reported 9% and things have been worse since there), so this death rate is at least comparable to the spanish flu.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Just don't bother with the Somerset Brie that the nationalist types were banging on about a while back:




Fair enough, I don't like Brie wherever it's from so no massive loss there  

I have a bottle of Somerset apple brandy which is very nice. When I found it I thought, _Apple brandy, from Somerset?_ Then I thought, _obviously, why wouldn't there be. _it shouldn't really have been a surprise.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Fair enough, I don't like Brie wherever it's from so no massive loss there
> 
> I have a bottle of Somerset apple brandy which is very nice. When I found it I thought, _Apple brandy, from Somerset?_ Then I thought, _obviously, why wouldn't there be. _it shouldn't really have been a surprise.


what does apple brandy taste like? i know thats hard to put into words but curious


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what does apple brandy taste like? i know thats hard to put into words but curious


ask for calvados next time you're in a well-stocked bar. it's very pleasant.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what does apple brandy taste like? i know thats hard to put into words but curious


cognac with an apple taste tbh. The older it is the more it just tastes like brandy.


----------



## MrSki (Jan 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Fair enough, I don't like Brie wherever it's from so no massive loss there
> 
> I have a bottle of Somerset apple brandy which is very nice. When I found it I thought, _Apple brandy, from Somerset?_ Then I thought, _obviously, why wouldn't there be. _it shouldn't really have been a surprise.


Does it have an apple in the bottle? I went to a farm in Somerset that made apple brandy and they had trees with bottles on them so the apple would grow in the bottle. Sold their shit to Harrods & the like. Did good cider too.
Had to tell them there was a dead chicken/hen out the front which had not been noticed.
Somerset Cider Brandy is good but much the same as Calvados.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i think you're having a fucking laugh if you think that the uk's institutions are any different.


Aside from the neoliberal reality of (economic) power, in reality, lying beyond national or supra-national states, there are significant and substantial differences between the Parliaments of the EU and UK. The first and most obvious one being that the UK Parliament is an actual parliament.

Perry Anderson's Part 2 of his LRB trilogy did a good job of showing the EU body for what it is; at best a ratifying body for real political decisions taken elsewhere:



The deliberately determined chronic democratic deficit of the EU Parliament always seemed to me to be one of the stronger elements of the 'Leave' arguments.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Does it have an apple in the bottle? I went to a farm in Somerset that made apple brandy and they had trees with bottles on them so the apple would grow in the bottle. Sold their shit to Harrods & the like. Did good cider too.
> Had to tell them there was a dead chicken/hen out the front which had not been noticed.
> Somerset Cider Brandy is good but much the same as Calvados.


i've seen william's pear brandy with a pear in the bottle, that's very good


----------



## teqniq (Jan 23, 2021)

Done with passion:


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

No apple in this bottle, just the drink. Yes, brandy that tastes of apples   My favourite winter drink, whether French or English. I have wondered if it gets made in Ireland but only idly curious, I've never looked for it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i've seen william's pear brandy with a pear in the bottle, that's very good



Had a bottle of mezcal that had a worm in it


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2021)

Well yes, the fact that Farage was a member of the EU's "parliament" kind of gives you clue about its import.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Had a bottle of mezcal that had a worm in it


Yeh I had that once too


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> No apple in this bottle, just the drink. Yes, brandy that tastes of apples   My favourite winter drink, whether French or English. I have wondered if it gets made in Ireland but only idly curious, I've never looked for it.


If you go to the knockmealdown mountains in the autumn you may see fires on the hillsides where bootleggers are distilling the apple moonshine


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well yes, the fact that Farage was a member of the EU's "parliament" kind of gives you clue about its import.


As the fact lembit opik being a member of the westminster parliament does about that nefandous institution's standing


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Aside from the neoliberal reality of (economic) power, in reality, lying beyond national or supra-national states, there are significant and substantial differences between the Parliaments of the EU and UK. The first and most obvious one being that the UK Parliament is an actual parliament.
> 
> Perry Anderson's Part 2 of his LRB trilogy did a good job of showing the EU body for what it is; at best a ratifying body for real political decisions taken elsewhere:
> 
> ...


One house of the westminster parliament is composed of bishops and political appointees so please don't carry on about democratic deficits in Brussels being so awful when you've said very little about the great democratic chasm here

Parliament means talking shop so the euro parliament very much a parliament


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Had a bottle of mezcal that had a worm in it


once had someone bring back a bottle of mezcal from mexico called Pensamiento, made "by monks" supposedly - looked quite home brew, budget lable - had a worm in it - clear liquid
it was a half bottle - drank it with my friend, we had half the worm each - mildly tripped out - definitely some psychedelic edge to it - would love another bottle to check!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> once had someone bring back a bottle of mezcal from mexico called Pensamiento, made "by monks" supposedly - looked quite home brew, budget lable - had a worm in it - clear liquid
> it was a half bottle - drank it with my friend, we had half the worm each - mildly tripped out - definitely some psychedelic edge to it - would love another bottle to check!


I've heard different things about the worm, one like you aid and the other view is that it  is the mezcal itself. Apparently Rpbert Mitchum had a passion for mezcal.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> ask for calvados next time you're in a well-stocked bar. it's very pleasant.



Calvados is my very favourite spirit, however unlike vodka, half a bottle and I'm on the floor.





Pickman's model said:


> View attachment 250775
> we're about halfway there. and about 10-15% of the population have had the disease (the mail in december reported 9% and things have been worse since there), so this death rate is at least comparable to the spanish flu.



Let's not forget that whilst turning the UK's Covid response in to a mass slaughter they took time out in order to wreck what's left of the economy with their crappy Brexit business


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> One house of the westminster parliament is composed of bishops and political appointees so please don't carry on about democratic deficits in Brussels being so awful when you've said very little about the great democratic chasm here
> 
> Parliament means talking shop so the euro parliament very much a parliament


Always happy to talk about the democratic deficits of the UK's neoliberal consolidator state but, in this instance, the EU parliament's vote on tax havens revealed again how the actual policy decisions of the supra state are made at some remove from the directly elected body.


----------



## maomao (Jan 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Had a bottle of mezcal that had a worm in it


I once drank half a bottle of beer before I realised it had a fag end in it. Not quite as classy, just wanted to chip in.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 23, 2021)

maomao said:


> I once drank half a bottle of beer before I realised it had a fag end in it. Not quite as classy, just wanted to chip in.


Used to be an occupational hazard with Watney’s Party Sevens


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Always happy to talk about the democratic deficits of the UK's neoliberal consolidator state but, in this instance, the EU parliament's vote on tax havens revealed again how the actual policy decisions of the supra state are made at some remove from the directly elected body.


Yeh policy decisions always are. The government's brexit policy was made (if you can call it that) far from the chamber of the hoc. Indeed the role of the UK parliament in determining policy seems loose at best


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh policy decisions always are. The government's brexit policy was made (if you can call it that) far from the chamber of the hoc. Indeed the role of the UK parliament in determining policy seems loose at best


Yep, I'm not spending my Saturday evening defending the UK state; as I said upthread, it always was a _what flavour of shit sandwich _"choice".


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2021)

maomao said:


> I once drank half a bottle of beer before I realised it had a fag end in it. Not quite as classy, just wanted to chip in.


i once ate an oven pizza and when i got near the end i realised id cooked it on its styrofoam base and the styrofoam had melted into the crust. i hope this won't happen again now we've left the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yep, I'm not spending my Saturday evening defending the UK state; as I said upthread, it always was a _what flour of shit sandwich _"choice".


So what do you propose we should do now to get a better tasting sarnie?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i once ate an oven pizza and when i got near the end i realised id cooked it on its styrofoam base and the styrofoam had melted into the crust. i hope this won't happen again now we've left the EU.


No longer shall we eat the tasty and nutritious styrofoam bases


----------



## brogdale (Jan 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So what do you propose we should do now to get a better tasting sarnie?


Anarcho-communism.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Anarcho-communism.



Not sure that will work as well as our wonderous  parliament and god ordained monarch...


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 23, 2021)

How I learned to stop worrying and tour the UK instead of Europe. One for editor 

Breaking down touring around Europe post brexit by some bloke called Fish


----------



## prunus (Jan 23, 2021)

People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?  I am genuinely interested.

Is this kind of thing enough?

Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

I really shouldn't chime in here but...
but...
but...
ah fuck it. 

It's not leaving the EU which is a bad idea, in itself. The EU is awful and frankly we're well shot of it. 
The bad idea is having it done by the people who are doing it. If anything fucks the UK, it will be those people. Not leaving the EU.

There tis, i done a pinion


----------



## ska invita (Jan 23, 2021)

prunus said:


> People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?  I am genuinely interested.
> 
> Is this kind of thing enough?
> 
> Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


i wonder what the scale of jobs moved to the EU / tax loss will come to be? 
also this is something that only larger companies can do really, small business will have to just suck it up - or spit it out more likely


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 23, 2021)

prunus said:


> Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told



From that, the very first paragraph...

_British businesses that export to the continent are being encouraged by government trade advisers to set up separate companies inside the EU in order to get around extra charges, paperwork and taxes resulting from Brexit/..._

It's the lying, craven, amoral, self-serving bullies in charge of this shit show that are the problem. Not the shitshow they created as much as the fact they just don't care .. they don't even deny it's a shitshow, they just don't give a fuck. _Throw the forms in the bin_ ffs.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 23, 2021)

prunus said:


> People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?


Having to live here?


----------



## editor (Jan 23, 2021)

prunus said:


> People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?  I am genuinely interested.
> 
> Is this kind of thing enough?
> 
> Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


Exactly what happened to us once: 


> At the border crossings the customs officers are totally within their rights to ask for an entire truck or trailer to be unloaded and examined to see if it matches the carnet documents


----------



## teqniq (Jan 24, 2021)

I feel that we're a long way past 'you couldn't make this shit up' but still....









						UK unveils aid for fishing industry, reeling from post-Brexit checks
					

Britain unveiled an extra 23 million pounds of funding on Tuesday to compensate fishing businesses which have seen their exports to mainland Europe throttled by the introduction of post-Brexit checks.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> As the fact lembit opik being a member of the westminster parliament does about that nefandous institution's standing


Lembit is still an MP?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Yesterday, as the impact of leaving the single market and customs union on 1 January became ever more clear, the _Financial Times_ reported that the cost of a £12 bottle of wine in UK shops could rise by up to £1.50 a bottle because of the extra bureaucracy and charges affecting imports.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i once ate an oven pizza and when i got near the end i realised id cooked it on its styrofoam base and the styrofoam had melted into the crust. i hope this won't happen again now we've left the EU.



Jesus fucking christ mate that is awful. I would need years of therapy to get over something like that.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2021)

i dont drink wine but i presume costs will go up on any drink coming in from the eu
calvados!!! beligan beers? prosecco?
wine is pretty cheap these days - i remember the first time i got pissed was on bulgrain wine that cost £3.5 0 a bottle. it probably costs £4 pre brexit, even though more than three decades have passed


Flavour said:


> Jesus fucking christ mate that is awful. I would need years of therapy to get over something like that.


yeah i was upset, not least as for health reasons i go out of my way to avoid plastics with food, never microwave a plastic dish , no plastic spatulas etc
just eat styrofoam instead lol
its amazing how i couldnt taste it


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

The Chablis in my local shop still costs a tenner a bottle. I dont drink it but once or twice a year but I will keep an eye out for price rises for essential commodities like this.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

The price of imported EU wines may rise but I guarantee our good old traditional UK whines will be cheaper than ever


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> The price of imported EU wines may rise but I guarantee our good old traditional UK whines will be cheaper than ever


im surprised  "you couldnt make it up" wasnt trending on twitter yesterday


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Will the French leave the grapes on the vine for want of the UK market?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

Ah they'll only go sour (the grapes, not the French. Probably)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

We will always have turbocider though.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

Alcoholic energy drinks with red, white and blue packaging. Brewed from redundant workers' tears. Called Threelionade. Get a free can every time you pay a quid in tax. etc


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Alcoholic energy drinks with red, white and blue packaging. Brewed from redundant workers' tears. Called Threelionade. Get a free can every time you pay a quid in tax. etc


Party Seven option available.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Party Seven option available.



But only to be shared by six people, outdoors, on a Tuesday, wearing muslin bags over their heads, standing back-to-back, when the wind is in the west.

Infraction gets a £50 fine, reduced to a tenner if paid in USD


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 24, 2021)

Mead please.

Thigh given the Tories are allowing neonicotinids again we're fucked.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 24, 2021)

teqniq said:


> UK unveils aid for fishing industry, reeling from post-Brexit checks
> 
> 
> Britain unveiled an extra 23 million pounds of funding on Tuesday to compensate fishing businesses which have seen their exports to mainland Europe throttled by the introduction of post-Brexit checks.
> ...






id be pissed off too, though i expect theres only so long the fishers will be getting handouts - short term hush money more than anything i expect


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 24, 2021)

Captain Pugwash next job could be in cyber


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2021)

£23m is fuck all for any sector, obviously.


----------



## quiet guy (Jan 24, 2021)

No he's an exMP as of 2010


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 250916
> 
> id be pissed off too, though i expect theres only so long the fishers will be getting handouts - short term hush money more than anything i expect


That's got to be a parody. Subsidise mime artists?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Captain Pugwash next job could be in cyber


Cam girl.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Cam girl.



OnlyFins


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i wonder what the scale of jobs moved to the EU / tax loss will come to be?
> also this is something that only larger companies can do really, small business will have to just suck it up - or spit it out more likely


Dunno how they do it but a lot of larger UK clothing companies have had European sites for years. I ordered some stuff post Brexit and before the confinement here and it came with no taxes/customs etc.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?  I am genuinely interested.
> 
> Is this kind of thing enough?
> 
> Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


The watershed for me would be if liberal rags like the Guardian became pro Brexit.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The watershed for me would be if liberal rags like the Guardian became pro Brexit.



"It'd take a lot to turn me against Brexit," says expat who retired to an EU country before Brexit.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> The price of imported EU wines may rise but I guarantee our good old traditional UK whines will be cheaper than ever



The northernmost vineyard in England is just outside Leeds. But I think more will be planted in the southwest and probably south Wales too


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The northernmost vineyard in England is just outside Leeds. But I think more will be planted in the southwest and probably south Wales too


Denbigh wines from Dorking are great and get better each year with our increasingly long summers and higher temperatures.


----------



## prunus (Jan 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The watershed for me would be if liberal rags like the Guardian became pro Brexit.



Ok so that’s one vote for ‘Brexit is a good thing as long as it continues to annoy the liberal left [and by extent continues to please the illiberal right - Redwood, Mogg and the Daily Mail and the like] and hang any detrimental consequences on people’s lives.’

Anyone got anything less right-wing reactionary?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> Ok so that’s one vote for ‘Brexit is a good thing as long as it continues to annoy the liberal left [and by extent continues to please the illiberal right - Redwood, Mogg and the Daily Mail and the like] and hang any detrimental consequences on people’s lives.’
> 
> Anyone got anything less right-wing reactionary?


Your post epitomizes the sneery arsed hard line remainer attitude shown throughout this thread. 

These attitudes would need to change a lot.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 24, 2021)

My seed website can't ship to Norn.



> Many people are asking about this! We just wanted to make it clear that it is not our choice in any way, but is a result of the Brexit deal.
> 
> Right now, no exports of vegetable seed are allowed at all, either to the EU, or to Northern Ireland. This will change once 'equivalence' of regulations is agreed, hopefully fairly soon. But, even once this happens, because there is free movement of plant & seed material throughout the island of Ireland it means that all the plant health border requirements have now moved effectively to the middle of the Irish sea.
> 
> ...


----------



## Winot (Jan 24, 2021)

Another thread from the wine importer.


----------



## philosophical (Jan 24, 2021)

One of the more compelling arguments was about the risk of a democratic deficit following the referendum vote.
The weird thing is those in favour of brexit seem to think the vote has been honoured, but to me the different treatment of Northern Ireland means that the democratic deficit remains and the vote has not been honoured.
So the argument regarding the will of the people has come up against practical reality, and in my view lost.
Beyond that brexit remains chite with no redeeming features whatsoever, unless winners sneering at the losers counts as a redeeming feature.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I really shouldn't chime in here but...
> but...
> but...
> ah fuck it.
> ...


You can’t separate the two, brexit means farage and Rees-mogg and Johnson. It’s their thing.


----------



## Supine (Jan 24, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> You can’t separate the two, brexit means farage and Rees-mogg and Johnson. It’s their thing.



And Topcat's


----------



## prunus (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Your post epitomizes the sneery arsed hard line remainer attitude shown throughout this thread.
> 
> These attitudes would need to change a lot.



Why? Why would the attitude that a mistake should be recognised as a mistake have to change at all, let alone a lot?  Surely the recognition that it’s a mistake is the first step to rolling it back?

Also, I am perfectly happy to fully own a dismissive attitude to the view that anything is a good idea simply because it annoys the liberal left and regardless of any other consequences.  Please explain why I should consider a tolerant and inclusive attitude towards what is fundamentally a position fuelled by hatred of what is a fundamentally good group of people?

For clarity - I absolutely understand the desperation underlying many people’s grasping of this as a change, given that a change from the prevailing politics in this country is desperately needed to reduce inequality and make a fairer and better society for everyone living in it. I, and the liberal left of which group I would be happy to describe myself, want exactly this change, have spent all my (political) life voting and occasionally campaigning for such change. Brexit is not the right change. It’s change in the opposite direction. If the liberal left is one’s enemy I think one has to examine what side one is accidentally fighting for.

Just because a massive change is desperately needed, and Brexit is a massive change, doesn’t mean that the latter fulfils the need for the former and should be defended at all costs.

*edited to remove unnecessary emotive word


----------



## bimble (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Your post epitomizes the sneery arsed hard line remainer attitude shown throughout this thread.
> 
> These attitudes would need to change a lot.


Did you vote brexit out of a sort of spite? Or is that a mad suggestion .


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

bimble said:


> Did you vote brexit out of a sort of spite? Or is that a mad suggestion .


Spiting capital.


----------



## gosub (Jan 24, 2021)

philosophical said:


> One of the more compelling arguments was about the risk of a democratic deficit following the referendum vote.
> The weird thing is those in favour of brexit seem to think the vote has been honoured, but to me the different treatment of Northern Ireland means that the democratic deficit remains and the vote has not been honoured.
> So the argument regarding the will of the people has come up against practical reality, and in my view lost.
> Beyond that brexit remains chite with no redeeming features whatsoever, unless* winners sneering at the losers *counts as a redeeming feature.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Spiting capital.


Spliting?


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> People who still support brexit on here: what set of circumstances or kind of thing could come to pass that would make you change your mind about brexit being a good idea?  I am genuinely interested.
> 
> Is this kind of thing enough?
> 
> Move to EU to avoid Brexit costs, firms told


No, I don't care that small businesses are being advised by the department of international trade on how to get around cross border trade problems and I doubt anyone else who voted leave does either. I don't think where businesses are registered rated very highly in peoples reasons for voting.

I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.


----------



## prunus (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> No, I don't care that small businesses are being advised by the department of international trade on how to get around cross border trade problems and I doubt anyone else who voted leave does either. I don't think where businesses are registered rated very highly in peoples reasons for voting.
> 
> I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.



It’s not just a case of setting up shell companies, it’s moving and/or setting up entire distribution operations inside the EU - ie jobs and revenues that could have stayed here in the UK going abroad.  Jobs in small and medium sized businesses that make up the majority of the economy in this country. Do you really not care about this?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> I don't know it seems strange to me in the middle of a global pandemic with who knows what consequences for our jobs and living standards (already devastating for many) and where there's a national campaign over getting kids fed, for remainers to imagine stuff like this or price rises for bottles of wine ("the impact of leaving becoming ever more clear" as the Guardian puts it referring to up to £1.50 on a £12 bottle) or whatever would be anyone's final straw.



Price rises either are or are likely to go well beyond expensive wine, though, and that's going to be no help at all to those struggling to feed their kids.


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> It’s not just a case of setting up shell companies, it’s moving and/or setting up entire distribution operations inside the EU - ie jobs and revenues that could have stayed here in the UK going abroad.  Jobs in small and medium sized businesses that make up the majority of the economy in this country. Do you really not care about this?


I care about people losing their jobs, but no these kind of arrangements for companies operating across continent don't make me reconsider my vote in the referendum.


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Price rises either are or are likely to go well beyond expensive wine, though, and that's going to be no help at all to those struggling to feed their kids.


I was only going by what was in the article and wine was what the Guardian thought most decisive I suppose.


----------



## prunus (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> I care about people losing their jobs, but no these kind of arrangements for companies operating across continent don't make me reconsider my vote in the referendum.



Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 24, 2021)

Now I am on the inside of this can confirm 100% it is a mess beyond what is reported


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?


In the fulness of time its entirely possible that very many of those of us who voted for Brexit will find cause to "reconsider".And then again maybe not.Are not these recriminations a little premature a few short weeks after implementation and,as Inva mentioned,in the middle of a global pandemic?


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> I was only going by what was in the article and wine was what the Guardian thought most decisive I suppose.



The Guardian's reporting it because a wine merchant has been very vocal about it on Twitter, but it isn't just wine.  The UK imports about a quarter of its food from the EU so inevitably some things are going to get more costly.  The logistical and administrative problems aren't going to help either.  And it's not only food: I bought a bit of electrical equipment the other day, checked the manufacturer's website for something, and they're currently not importing to the UK.   Doubtless with a bit of digging about I could find a lot more examples of things that are or are going to become a lot scarcer and probably a lot more expensive.

Couple that with a probable wave of redundancies in firms that are now struggling to get goods and services into Europe and things are about to get quite a lot shitter for a lot of people.  It'd be nice if those Lexiters who haven't had the good sense to go quiet could explain how that can be a good thing, especially under a Tory government with an 80-seat majority.


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

prunus said:


> Ok fair enough, you don’t consider people losing their jobs a sufficient downside as to make you reconsider. It was only a (current) suggestion of the the kind of thing that I thought might - but to return to the original question: what kind of thing would make you reconsider?


Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.

Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
> On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.
> 
> Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.



Meanwhile in the real world...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

It would be front page of every newspaper every day atm without the pandemic. I just had a little scroll down the front page of the BBC website, and there is not a single mention of any brexit problems anywhere. Rather _convenient_, one might think, for the government.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> Like I think most people who voted to leave, my vote was more based on the nature of the EU than specific trade arrangements of UK businesses or the UK state.
> On that basis, maybe a feasible mechanism for drastically reforming the EU in a progressive direction but that seems so unrealistic it would be virtually the same as saying nothing would.
> 
> Job losses and price rises are not inevitable consequences of a neutral capitalist market, both can be avoided and defended against. The school meals campaign is a good example of how during a crisis we can fight to protect each other.


Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.


I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.


So which bits of the nature of the EU as manifested in the UK do you see being changed by brexit, and is this in the progressive direction you would want? If no, it's in a direction the opposite way from what you would want, would you still think brexit was a good thing? Isn't that just punching yourself in the face? 

Joe Biden is a centrist neoliberal, but that doesn't mean he isn't better than Trump.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sorry but I think that's way off the mark in terms of why most other people voted brexit. Immigration was the single most cited concern in surveys. 'The EU isn't progressive enough' was a minority motivation.


And of course (as was mentioned ad nauseam last year) the EU itself is somewhat less progressive when it comes to African migration.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents.


As for this bit, well yes, of course. Why else would people vote to leave the EU? That's not really saying anything. But what it is about the EU that they reject matters here, and what it is being offered as an alternative also matters. Hence the rightward lurch the country is taking - it was those rejecting the EU from a nationalist perspective whose views are being pandered to.


----------



## inva (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As for this bit, well yes, of course. Why else would people vote to leave the EU? That's not really saying anything. But what it is about the EU that they reject matters here, and what it is being offered as an alternative also matters. Hence the rightward lurch the country is taking - it was those rejecting the EU from a nationalist perspective whose views are being pandered to.


'Yes of course' but you said I argued something different? I was responding to a post saying that the cross border trade arrangements mentioned in a Guardian article might be a reason I'd reconsider my vote so I was explaining why it wasn't.

If you want yet another argument about why people including me voted to leave I might pick it up at some point but tbh can't be bothered to go over it all again now, there's already threads and threads on it. And anyway it's not really on topic here.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> You can’t separate the two, brexit means farage and Rees-mogg and Johnson. It’s their thing.



The thing called "Brexit" is their thing, but that's not enough to convince me that quitting the EU as a political move is _in itself _a bad idea. 
Recall that was always Comrade Corbyn's idea too - right up till he had to stand by it and found he couldn't.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

There's a winery in Abergavenny and I've heard their wine is good though I've never had any.

Still, grapes are just one wine fruit. I'd like to see other fruit wines become more available. Plum. Cherry. Blackberry. Oh yes.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 24, 2021)

inva said:


> I never mentioned anything about people saying the EU isn't progressive enough, I meant peoples vote was more about rejecting what the EU is/represents. I think that's correct - loss of control (including over immigration), undemocratic. They were the major reasons I saw cited from what I remember.


My vote counts the same as it did before brexit, nowt. Do people think the government will be more accountable now or have the tools to make a difference ? . They’ve had to be shamed into feeding kids...


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> My vote counts the same as it did before brexit, nowt. Do people think the government will be more accountable now or have the tools to make a difference ? . They’ve had to be shamed into feeding kids...


If they are indeed capable of being shamed into doing things then that in itself perhaps a very small but nevertheless positive sign?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 24, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> If they are indeed capable of being shamed into doing things then that in itself perhaps a very small but nevertheless positive sign?


I mean they have the money to spend on ppe contracts for their mates etc, they choose not to spend it on feeding kids, how has brexit made any difference there?


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

And I was just venturing to suggest that it would be vain to attempt to "shame" the EU Commission into doing or not doing anything they see fit to do or not do.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 24, 2021)

Tbh if I were pro-Brexit, current events wouldn't change my mind - unless I had made that decision based on the idea that the current government were in the slightest competent, and I wouldn't insult anyone by implying they believed _that_. I think it was guaranteed from the start that the transition would be a fuckup.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> The thing called "Brexit" is their thing, but that's not enough to convince me that quitting the EU as a political move is _in itself _a bad idea.
> Recall that was always Comrade Corbyn's idea too - right up till he had to stand by it and found he couldn't.


'In itself' is not a thing though, is it? It always belongs to somebody.

Quitting the EU could potentially have been a good thing if:


the EU was outpacing the unchecked ambitions of the domestic government, or
there was a strong likelihood that the domestic government would be brought to an end _and _an exit would offer novel positive possibilities thereafter, or
there was a realistic possibility that it would destroy the EU _and _produce a net positive in its absence, regardless of the effects on the exiting party

These things were and are not true. There is not even anything going on at the meta level - not even IMO the _slightest hope _of making the second one happen. We live in a miserable country with a public that outright supports both doing a bad job and making things worse, and I struggle to see how this is going to substantially change in my remaining lifetime.

I think much of the stupid stuff that has happened will eventually be unfucked in its detail by the inevitability of the world it exists within, but nothing will have been won, and much will have been both suffered and conceded.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Lembit is still an MP?


no he has left the building


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

Case of being careful what you wish for re destroying the EU without a concrete plan for how to replace it. Increased international cooperation, involving increased pooling of sovereignty, is the only real hope for creating the changes we need to survive. A move of power away from the 'Westminster' level, if anything, not towards it. Away from it both upwards and downwards. Internationalism partnered with localism.

The 'Take Back Control' slogan was wrongheaded on several levels.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.


In four years' time. A lot of damage will have been done by then. 

And I still wouldn't bet on it. The Tories can ditch Johnson and struggle on, 'fixing' brexit. Renewing themselves mid-term and clinging to power is something they're very good at. 

Scotland may well secede and even that probably wouldn't stop people voting Tory. 9k a year tuition fees haven't stopped them after all.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Case of being careful what you wish for re destroying the EU without a concrete plan for how to replace it. Increased international cooperation, involving increased pooling of sovereignty, is the only real hope for creating the changes we need to survive. A move of power away from the 'Westminster' level, if anything, not towards it. Away from it both upwards and downwards. Internationalism partnered with localism.
> 
> The 'Take Back Control' slogan was wrongheaded on several levels.


Well thankfully your viewpoint lost.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> There's a winery in Abergavenny and I've heard their wine is good though I've never had any.
> 
> Still, grapes are just one wine fruit. I'd like to see other fruit wines become more available. Plum. Cherry. Blackberry. Oh yes.


Ferment for victory.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well thankfully your viewpoint lost.


Our viewpoints were never consulted. Much too risky.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Our viewpoints were never consulted. Much too risky.


You got asked the same question.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You got asked the same question.


Answering yes or no to someone else's random question takes no account of my viewpoint on anything.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> Answering yes or no to someone else's random question takes no account of my viewpoint on anything.


I'm shocked.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 24, 2021)

If anyone is happy to spunk more than a tenner on a bottle of wine I would humbly suggest getting one from Oregon or a British wine from the Surrey Hills, Albury and Chilworth are better than anything I have ever had from France...


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I'm shocked.


You get used to it.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If anyone is happy to spunk more than a tenner on a bottle of wine I would humbly suggest getting one from Oregon or a British wine from the Surrey Hills, Albury and Chilworth are better than anything I have ever had from France...


We may have issues with red wine. I dont think any UK producer has ever put anything out for sale. 
I think a few non eu countries make a decent red though. Should be ok.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> There is always the possibility of the domestic Government being brought to an end.If/when the 17.5 million Brexiteers find that they have been sold a pup that their Government has promised things which they are unable/unwilling to deliver it is entirely possible that they could turn on that Government and vote in another.


The particular administration may or may not end as a result of its recent doings - personally my prediction is towards 'not' - but there is very little prospect of a structural change in power or ideology.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

mauvais said:


> 'In itself' is not a thing though, is it? It always belongs to somebody.



That's a fair point. 

But it's always worth recalling though that the idea of leaving the EU has always had more than one set of proponents. At the very least it's a way of finding unity - particularly as the liars' lies become more and more glaring and harmful and some people start to feel shafted. Being out of the EU would not be a bad position to be in, if we could just deal with the actual problem. If enough people do start to feel shafted .. or hungry, homeless, scared .. who the fuck knows what might transpire. But we'll _still _be out of the EU and by that point it might become an actual advantage. I don't know how, but I know when Greece fell the EU gave it a good kicking. So at least that won't happen, whatever else does happen.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

plus now we can drink more than just one goddamn litre
_ahem_
_two pints, "merci beaucoup"

_

so there's
hic

that


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2021)

The trouble with that is threefold: we are not well positioned to deal with the actual problem, the people responsible for the actual problem have been further empowered as a result, and it's hard to see what prevented the action of Brexit from being carried out at some future point when it could/would have been of actual benefit.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The trouble with that is threefold: we are not well positioned to deal with the actual problem, the people responsible for the actual problem have been further empowered as a result, and it's hard to see what prevented the action of Brexit from being carried out at some future point when it could/would have been of actual benefit.



I agree 100%. 
And yet, here we are.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> That's a fair point.
> 
> But it's always worth recalling though that the idea of leaving the EU has always had more than one set of proponents. At the very least it's a way of finding unity - particularly as the liars' lies become more and more glaring and harmful and some people start to feel shafted. Being out of the EU would not be a bad position to be in, if we could just deal with the actual problem. If enough people do start to feel shafted .. or hungry, homeless, scared .. who the fuck knows what might transpire. But we'll _still _be out of the EU and by that point it might become an actual advantage. I don't know how, but I know when Greece fell the EU gave it a good kicking. So at least that won't happen, whatever else does happen.


I don't want to excuse or minimise what was done to Greece, but there was never a chance of anything similar happening to the UK with its semi-detatched membership.

That's not exactly a strong argument for remaining, of course, but there are flip sides to it. It's simplistic to think of EU membership as all bad. The initial sharing out of the covid vaccine, which may go tits up in the end, was at least an attempt at equity across the union. The UK government shamelessly attempted to bully the Irish government. The EU stood by Ireland. Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The particular administration may or may not end as a result of its recent doings - personally my prediction is towards 'not' - but there is very little prospect of a structural change in power or ideology.


That may very well be so but a large number of fairly desperate workers decided that voting for "no change" was not likely to help in this regard.


----------



## Duncan2 (Jan 24, 2021)

Just on the vaccine-couldn't help noticing that Hungary are getting in the Sputnik vaccine which has not been approved for use by the relevant EU body and a row has erupted because Germany are being accused ( by France) of seeking to hoard extra consignments of vaccine for their own use.You could look at this as exceptional misbehaviour which proves the general rule but.....Overall things not going well.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 24, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> plus now we can drink more than just one goddamn litre
> _ahem
> two pints, "merci beaucoup"
> 
> ...


That's about 90 units per week!

(The NHS recommended amount is 14.)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't want to excuse or minimise what was done to Greece, but there was never a chance of anything similar happening to the UK with its semi-detatched membership.
> 
> That's not exactly a strong argument for remaining, of course, but there are flip sides to it. It's simplistic to think of EU membership as all bad. The initial sharing out of the covid vaccine, which may go tits up in the end, was at least an attempt at equity across the union. The UK government shamelessly attempted to bully the Irish government. The EU stood by Ireland. Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.


Just for posterity.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The EU stood by Ireland.



Not for Ireland's benefit, I suspect.



littlebabyjesus said:


> Things like no capital punishment and gay rights are guaranteed across the union, and yes, the mechanisms aren't as strong as they could be, while there's work to be done on reproductive rights, and there are abuses by the likes of Hungary and Poland atm, but it is a good aspiration and aim to establish basic fundamental rights, and that project hasn't been totally unsuccessful. Far from it. Russia's current laws would be against EU laws. Thatcher's Clause 28 would have been against EU laws.



The EU isn't as bad as Russia. Or Thatcher.
As endorsements go I must admit, I have seen better.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "It'd take a lot to turn me against Brexit," says expat who retired to an EU country before Brexit.



This post had played on my mind a bit today tbh . I think it’s missing an opportunity  as you never know who reads posts on here . How about a quick redraft and inserting somewhere ‘former child model’ or ‘charming and witty ‘ or ‘sophisticated and handsome ‘ . Don’t want it over egged or anything but at present it’s brief , and don’t get me wrong there’s some merit in that , but it’s understated . Pm me some drafts and I’ll give them the once over .


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

Raheem said:


> That's about 90 units per week!
> 
> (The NHS recommended amount is 14.)


----------



## two sheds (Jan 24, 2021)

I think that's a very sensible limit, it doesn't mention the allowed amount of port or rum that normally follows it down though.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

and obviously champagne doesn't count anyway.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Just for posterity.


Stood by Ireland? Ah yes the second referendum after Ireland voted no in the first .


----------



## TopCat (Jan 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Stood by Ireland? Ah yes the second referendum after Ireland voted no in the first .


The poor wee lambs didn't know the full story when they were allowed to have a say. 
Thank goodness they got a proper peoples vote later.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 24, 2021)

_Seulement un litre par jour? D'accord, docteur.

Et la nuit..? _


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

Gobsmacked to find out that the USA is the biggest importer of EU wine . Wonder what the tariffs on that are ?


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The poor wee lambs didn't know the full story when they were allowed to have a say.
> Thank goodness they got a proper peoples vote later.



And didn't it happen Twice? (once on Nice, once on Lisbon IIRC)
Not to mention the French being wrong in 2005.
And wasn't a Danish referendum also .. not overturned but .. snuck around, at best.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The poor wee lambs didn't know the full story when they were allowed to have a say.
> Thank goodness they got a proper peoples vote later.


Can’t remember the exact words but Giscard in advising the Irish govt said something like the changes needed to be hidden in some long document so that they were impenetrable to the public


----------



## philosophical (Jan 24, 2021)

This is a reading about why the second votes had a different outcome from the first in Denmark and Ireland.
It discusses strategic changes in the campaigns.
There is a theme within the article that seems to be about the impact of the emphasis of different bits of information.
Now in the UK, the broad dismissal with a soundbite (we've had enough of experts) of one aspect of the debate looks like it prevailed.
Had expert and detailed challenge to the 'No' campaign been more to the fore, the vote might have been different. Interestingly it was _after _the referendum result that a lot of people were saying they didn't feel they had enough information, and indeed the day after the vote wasn't a leading Google question 'What is the EU?'?
Anyway here it is and the Danish and Irish situation don't come over as a population simply being bullied or threatened.









						Asking the public twice: why do voters change their minds in second referendums on EU treaties?
					

On three occasions – Denmark on the Maastricht Treaty, Ireland on the Nice Treaty and Ireland again on the Lisbon Treaty – voters have initially rejected an EU treaty only to vote in favour of it i…




					blogs.lse.ac.uk


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 24, 2021)

philosophical said:


> the Danish and Irish situation don't come over as a population simply being *bullied or threatened*.






			
				The Article said:
			
		

> "In addition to the arguments on the guarantees, the Yes side emphasised the consequences of a second No vote such as *potential exclusion from the EU and economic costs*. This shift was visible in the choice of slogans as well. In Denmark, the Liberal Party went from ‘_Vote Yes!_’ to ‘_Go for the safe choice, *you will not get another chance*_’. In Ireland too, abstract Yes slogans such as ‘_Europe: Let’s be at the heart of it_’ were replaced with more dramatic messages such as ‘_*Ruin versus recovery*_’."



I think the article doesn't really support your statement - but anyway the main issue wasn't as I remember bullying or threats, it's just .. ignoring the result.
In France the 2005 referendum result was _openly _ignored and this is _still_ creating demand within France for their own referendum on membership.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2021)

philosophical said:


> This is a reading about why the second votes had a different outcome from the first in Denmark and Ireland.
> It discusses strategic changes in the campaigns.
> There is a theme within the article that seems to be about the impact of the emphasis of different bits of information.
> Now in the UK, the broad dismissal with a soundbite (we've had enough of experts) of one aspect of the debate looks like it prevailed.
> ...


Absolutely , its the hallmark of democracy that if you don't get the right result get better voter insight, a better marketing agency  and try, try again. Either that or restrict or expand the vote to those that vote the right way.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 24, 2021)

Duncan2 said:


> That may very well be so but a large number of fairly desperate workers decided that voting for "no change" was not likely to help in this regard.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 25, 2021)

https://www.trees-online.co.uk/


----------



## Badgers (Jan 25, 2021)

__





						The bill for Boris Johnson’s Brexit is coming in and it’s punishingly steep | Brexit | The Guardian
					

Ministers say it is just teething trouble. To many businesses it feels more like root canal surgery without the benefit of anaesthetic




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If the remoaner tag fits, Andrew wears it.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 25, 2021)

Badgers said:


> https://www.trees-online.co.uk/
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 251207


Even without that tagline, the rest of that website is worth a visit. Clearly it was written by someone who is cheesed off.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the remoaner tag fits, Andrew wears it.


Play the man not the ball eh? Nothing to say about the substance of the article?



To be clear as I've said before I abstained in the referendum vote because whilst I was persuaded by some of the Lexit arguements I felt the whole Berxit project was being steered by ideology, xenophobia/racisism and internal struggles that the vermin were having and wasn't really in the wider publlic interest. so what are your actual thoughts on the effect this is having on businesses particularly the smaller ones as described above rather than Rawnsley himself?


----------



## Badgers (Jan 25, 2021)

Gardeners snagged by farcical new Irish Sea border rule as British soil is banned from Northern Ireland because of Brexit – and harmful peat is promoted
					

The Irish Sea border has led to a ban on even tiny quantities of British soil being brought into Northern Ireland and is perversely incentivising the destruction of the environment, the owner of a major garden centre has warned.




					www.newsletter.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jan 25, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Play the man not the ball eh? Nothing to say about the substance of the article?
> 
> View attachment 251221
> 
> To be clear as I've said before I abstained in the referendum vote because whilst I was persuaded by some of the Lexit arguements I felt the whole Berxit project was being steered by ideology, xenophobia/racisism and internal struggles that the vermin were having and wasn't really in the wider publlic interest. so what are your actual thoughts on the effect this is having on businesses particularly the smaller ones as described above rather than Rawnsley himself?


This is akin to me posting an article by Rees mogg and demanding you comment on his hyperbole,  straw men and basic bullshit.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If the remoaner tag fits, Andrew wears it.



You embrace the language of the divide they created to keep us chained.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> You embrace the language of the divide they created to keep us chained.


Yeah well I was more constructive a few years ago until these ugly heads reared up, disdainful of any democracy that led to a result not of their likeing.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Case of being careful what you wish for re destroying the EU without a concrete plan for how to replace it. Increased international cooperation, involving increased pooling of sovereignty, is the only real hope for creating the changes we need to survive. A move of power away from the 'Westminster' level, if anything, not towards it. Away from it both upwards and downwards. Internationalism partnered with localism.
> 
> The 'Take Back Control' slogan was wrongheaded on several levels.


I agree with the Localism plus Interntionalism sentiment, but in fact Brexit may deliver that by breaking up the Union... That seems key to creating deeper localism. It could have happened within the Union, theoretically, but Westminster is too all-powerful and the Tories too dominant.

Internationalism is always an option, but requires socialist-minded forces in power, not membership of the EU.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> don't know how, but I know when Greece fell the EU gave it a good kicking. So at least that won't happen, whatever else does happen.



The problem with holding up Greece in these arguments is that Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.

Thinking back to the daily rioting and poverty at the height of the crisis, that is quite extraordinary.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 25, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Even without that tagline, the rest of that website is worth a visit. Clearly it was written by someone who is cheesed off.


It even has a page of Valentine's poems



			https://www.trees-online.co.uk/valentines-poems


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I agree with the Localism plus Interntionalism sentiment, but in fact Brexit may deliver that by breaking up the Union... That seems key to creating deeper localism. It could have happened within the Union, theoretically, but Westminster is too all-powerful and the Tories too dominant.
> 
> Internationalism is always an option, but requires socialist-minded forces in power, not membership of the EU.


Scottish Indy is another good example of a question in which how something is done and when it is done affects whether or not you should support it. I would have opposed it in the last ref if I were Scottish. It didn't represent anything progressive imo and there was a real danger of an 'independent' Scotland being as dependent on rUK as ever but with less voice, bit like the danger there is to the UK from brexit. But I reckon I'd be voting for independence now. There's nothing in the shitshow that is the UK that is worth clinging on to, and an outward-looking independent Scotland would be more internationalist.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The problem with holding up Greece in these arguments is that Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.
> 
> Thinking back to the daily rioting and poverty at the height of the crisis, that is quite extraordinary.


There are, I think if I'm counting correctly, 13 members of the EU with dictatorship in living memory.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah well I was more constructive a few years ago until these ugly heads reared up, disdainful of any democracy that led to a result not of their likeing.



Understandable, if disappointing to see they have dragged you down to their level.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> There are, I think if I'm counting correctly, 13 members of the EU with dictatorship in living memory.


Thats interesting  , show us your list.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Scottish Indy is another good example of a question in which how something is done and when it is done affects whether or not you should support it. I would have opposed it in the last ref if I were Scottish. It didn't represent anything progressive imo and there was a real danger of an 'independent' Scotland being as dependent on rUK as ever but with less voice, bit like the danger there is to the UK from brexit. But I reckon I'd be voting for independence now. There's nothing in the shitshow that is the UK that is worth clinging on to, and an outward-looking independent Scotland would be more internationalist.



with forty straight years of right wing governments in the UK, when is a good time for anything but now?
(crap rhetorical question: there is always the danger things can get a lot worse, that could include scottish independence too)


----------



## TopCat (Jan 25, 2021)

Smangus said:


> Understandable, if disappointing to see they have dragged you down to their level.


Fair enough. Most on here who voted leave cant be bothered by remain tantrums any more. There is no good will left.

I will like them move on and leave those dreaming of a greater EU to wallow in their own bile.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The problem with holding up Greece in these arguments is that Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.
> 
> Thinking back to the daily rioting and poverty at the height of the crisis, that is quite extraordinary.


 I always thought that the holding up of Greece as an example was about showing how the EU works in practice rather than the national psyche of the countries that are being sanctioned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah well I was more constructive a few years ago until these ugly heads reared up, disdainful of any democracy that led to a result not of their likeing.


democracy? we don't have no stinking democracy!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Thats interesting  , show us your list.



Portugal
Spain
Greece
Hungary
Bulgaria
Romania
Poland
Latvia
Estonia
Lithuania
Czechia
Slovakia
(East Germany)

That's 12 plus East Germany

Arguable, I guess, about what Yugoslavia was, dictatorship-wise, so dunno whether to include Slovenia and Croatia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Portugal
> Spain
> Greece
> Hungary
> ...


Perhaps you can explain why you believe Hitler wasn't a dictator. Or maybe he was, but not in western Germany and not in austria


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Perhaps you can explain why you believe Hitler wasn't a dictator. Or maybe he was, but not in western Germany and not in austria


Think you are stretching living memory there tbh


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Think you are stretching living memory there tbh


Even now there are people who can remember Germany in the 1930s and '40s eg kissinger.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Portugal
> Spain
> Greece
> Hungary
> ...


Oh: and Benito Mussolini's Italy a conspicuous absentee


----------



## ska invita (Jan 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I always thought that the holding up of Greece as an example was about showing how the EU works in practice rather than the national psyche of the countries that are being sanctioned.


Both aspects are relevant
They fear what it would be to be outside the EU....some people in Britain fear that too


----------



## Raheem (Jan 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Both aspects are relevant
> They fear what it would be to be outside the EU....some people in Britain fear that too


Think for Greece, it's more the memory of a weak currency than anything else, though.


----------



## bimble (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yeah well I was more constructive a few years ago until these ugly heads reared up, disdainful of any democracy that led to a result not of their likeing.


But you won and brexit is happening. I don’t get what the point is of calling people remoaners seeing as we are all in brexitland now. 
Expecting everyone to be enthusiastic about the results is a tall order tho seeing as lots of people who voted leave seem to be moaning the loudest lately.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Both aspects are relevant
> They fear what it would be to be outside the EU....some people in Britain fear that too



Have I read your posts correctly?  'Greeks continue to want to stay in, because the memory of the tyranny of being outside it is that strong.' refers to the military dictatorship-yes?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh: and Benito Mussolini's Italy a conspicuous absentee


What about Vichy France? And all of Nazi occupied Europe?


----------



## Smangus (Jan 25, 2021)

bimble said:


> But you won and brexit is happening. I don’t get what the point is of calling people remoaners seeing as we are all in brexitland now.
> Expecting everyone to be enthusiastic about the results is a tall order tho seeing as lots of people who voted leave seem to be moaning the loudest lately.



Nobody likes a sore winner


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What about Vichy France? And all of Nazi occupied Europe?


quite so. i'd suggest you approach littlebabyjesus but all you'd get would be 30 yards of liberal flannel


----------



## teqniq (Jan 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is akin to me posting an article by Rees mogg and demanding you comment on his hyperbole,  straw men and basic bullshit.


Straw men and basic bullshit? He describes real world problems being experienced by real people, nothing to say then.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What about Vichy France? And all of Nazi occupied Europe?


I restricted the idea of 'living memory' to the 1970s onwards. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable (especially as the list is unchanged if you extend it to the 1950s), and more to the point, a version of the EU already existed at the time that these dictatorships existed. That matters a lot when you think about what joining the EU meant in those countries, which all joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships.

Pickman's model is just taking the opportunity to be a cunt.


----------



## Winot (Jan 25, 2021)

Mastercard to push up fees for UK purchases from EU
					

The move sparks concerns that customers could see prices rise if merchants pass on the higher cost.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I restricted the idea of 'living memory' to the 1970s onwards. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable, and more to the point, a version of the EU already existed at the time that these dictatorships existed. That matters a lot when you think about what joining the EU meant in those countries, which all joined not many years after the fall of the dictatorships.
> 
> Pickman's model is just taking the opportunity to be a cunt.



if you say 'living memory' you're generally taken to mean events which can be recalled by living people. and the 1930s and '40s fall within this. if you choose to mean a different thing by this commonly understood phrase then it'd be only polite to say so on first usage. unless you're a cunt.

but given that germany joined the european steel and coal community and the european economic community - both precursors to the eu - 6 and 12 years respectively after the fall of the third reich, which is fewer than the 13 years which elapsed between estonian independence and their accession to the eu, your second point rather a fail too.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 25, 2021)

What about people who can remember past lives? I think we should try to be as inclusive as we can.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> What about people who can remember past lives? I think we should try to be as inclusive as we can.


yeh let's not worry about them on this thread, we try to strike a happy medium here


----------



## Raheem (Jan 25, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh let's not worry about them on this thread, we try to strike a happy medium here


If we do that, the medium won't be happy for long.

(ETA: even I can recognise this is poor)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If we do that, the medium won't be happy for long.


i don't think they'd be happy for long here anyway, with the great scepticism many here have for that sort of thing


----------



## philosophical (Jan 25, 2021)

The referendum was a version of democracy as all 'democracies' are.
It was not the paradigm version, so pure and wonderful against which all other versions are measured. In the Scottish Independence referendum 16 year olds were allowed to vote but not in the EU referendum. The argument that brexit should happen because it was so democratic has weaknesses, as is the argument that the result of the referendum has been honoured given the different rules now for part of the UK.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 25, 2021)

to paraphrase that prick churchill, abiding by the outcome of the 2016 referendum is the worst plan ever. except for ignoring or reversing the outcome.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I restricted the idea of 'living memory' to the 1970s onwards. I don't think that's particularly unreasonable (especially as the list is unchanged if you extend it to the 1950s), and more to the point, a version of the EU already existed at the time that these dictatorships existed. That matters a lot when you think about what joining the EU meant in those countries, which all joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships.
> 
> Pickman's model is just taking the opportunity to be a cunt.



What did joining the EU mean to those countries who joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What did joining the EU mean to those countries who joined not many years after the fall of their dictatorships?


I will speak for Spain as it's a country I know, and I was there around the time it joined the EU. In the 1980s, with memory of Franco and also the 1981 failed coup very fresh, joining the EU signalled the success of the transition to democracy, and it was widely supported for symbolic reasons as much as practical ones. Membership has never quite had that kind of resonance here - it's never been felt to be something needed for its guarantees against domestic tyranny.

(I was there, btw, on a school exchange, not coincidentally the first one from my school to Spain. That was also something that had far more significance to the town I was going to than to mine, which took such things rather for granted - we were given a formal reception by the local mayor.)


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I will speak for Spain as it's a country I know, and I was there around the time it joined the EU. In the 1980s, with memory of Franco and also the 1981 failed coup very fresh, joining the EU signalled the success of the transition to democracy, and it was widely supported for symbolic reasons as much as practical ones. Membership has never quite had that kind of resonance here - it's never been felt to be something needed for its guarantees against domestic tyranny.
> 
> (I was there, btw, on a school exchange, not coincidentally the first one from my school to Spain. That was also something that had far more significance to the town I was going to than to mine, which took such things rather for granted - we were given a formal reception by the local mayor.)



Yes I think Spain may have differences with both Portugal and Greece experience although for all it was primarily a desire for what they saw as financial reward in terms of EU monies and full trade. Spain under Franco had had very limited access to the EC as it was then. The 1970   Preferential Agreement  effectively said you can join but you've got to become more democratic and in some ways that helped sections of Spanish capital who felt that the regime now had reached a point where it was restricting the growth that Sapin had experienced  1950-mid 70s.   Post Franco sections of their ruling class who feared that Franco’s death might lead to a violent overturning of the established socio-economic order came to regard the EC as an external wall of containment against possible revolutionary excesses especially the legal protection against  confiscation of  property.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

Perhaps it was different in Portugal, which had a more definitive revolutionary moment, but I've spoken to people who lived through the Franco years and the transition years, and while there was enormous relief and celebration when he died, there was no sense of certainty that his death would mean a peaceful transition to something better. 'todo atado y bien atado' is what Franco believed on his death bed - everything all tied up. He was wrong, of course, but there was no sense of inevitability that he would be proved wrong at the time. Everything felt extremely precarious for some years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I will speak for Spain as it's a country I know, and I was there around the time it joined the EU. In the 1980s, with memory of Franco and also the 1981 failed coup very fresh, joining the EU signalled the success of the transition to democracy, and it was widely supported for symbolic reasons as much as practical ones. Membership has never quite had that kind of resonance here - it's never been felt to be something needed for its guarantees against domestic tyranny.
> 
> (I was there, btw, on a school exchange, not coincidentally the first one from my school to Spain. That was also something that had far more significance to the town I was going to than to mine, which took such things rather for granted - we were given a formal reception by the local mayor.)


spain joined the eu in 1993, seven years after joining the eec


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Perhaps it was different in Portugal, which had a more definitive revolutionary moment, but I've spoken to people who lived through the Franco years and the transition years, and while there was enormous relief and celebration when he died, there was no sense of certainty that his death would mean a peaceful transition to something better. 'todo atado y bien atado' is what Franco believed on his death bed - everything all tied up. He was wrong, of course, but there was no sense of inevitability that he would be proved wrong at the time. Everything felt extremely precarious for some years.


I agree with what you are saying . 
If you think about it that period in broader terms it was one of precariousness and uncertainty for the both European capital and  and American intersts in Southern Europe.  you had the post Franco situation , the Portuguese Revolution, Greece withdrawing from NATO and the threat of the Communist Party becoming the government in Italy. it may well have been that the EC positioned itself as a third way to many.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 25, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I agree with what you are saying .
> If you think about it that period in broader terms it was one of precariousness and uncertainty for the both European capital and  and American intersts in Southern Europe.  you had the post Franco situation , the Portuguese Revolution, Greece withdrawing from NATO and the threat of the Communist Party becoming the government in Italy. it may well have been that the EC positioned itself as a third way to many.


Sure. One more thing about Spain, while I don't think you can call the Spanish Civil War within living memory now - any surviving combatants will be over 100 - it certainly was in the 1970s. Indeed all they'd known was Franco since the civil war. The scale of the horror of that war and the brutal years that followed it, and their long-term effects, shouldn't be underestimated.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 25, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> What about Vichy France? And all of Nazi occupied Europe?


And Dolphuss in Austria + Nazi annexation. Also, Norway is in the EEA and they had that Mr Quisling chap.


----------



## prunus (Jan 25, 2021)

Another tiny cut.  Can't help but suspect we are going to get to 1000.

Mastercard to raise fees to EU firms by 500% for online sales to UK shoppers


----------



## Raheem (Jan 25, 2021)

prunus said:


> Another tiny cut.  Can't help but suspect we are going to get to 1000.
> 
> Mastercard to raise fees to EU firms by 500% for online sales to UK shoppers


Or 999, which will be worse.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sure. One more thing about Spain, while I don't think you can call the Spanish Civil War within living memory now - any surviving combatants will be over 100 - it certainly was in the 1970s. Indeed all they'd known was Franco since the civil war. The scale of the horror of that war and the brutal years that followed it, and their long-term effects, shouldn't be underestimated.


i think you're taking the piss as in living memory means events which are remembered by someone living. and there are yet some veterans of the spanish civil war alive, as this list attests List of surviving veterans of the Spanish Civil War - Wikipedia

there are about 12,000 people in spain over 100. shall we write off their memories of the period of the civil war?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 26, 2021)

Construction material shortages could delay UK housebuilding
					

Builders battle for supplies on back of Covid crisis and price increases




					www.theguardian.com
				






> One builders’ merchant said they were being given an August delivery date for roofing materials, such as pitched roof tiles, compared with a usual three-month wait because, even with extra shifts, UK factories were struggling to keep up.
> 
> The industry also continues to be affected by shortages of power tools, screws and fixings, stemming from congestion at UK ports. Companies now face increased shipping costs because of a global shortage of empty containers. Timber prices are also up by a fifth.



It's blaming Covid but congestion at the ports is something we're seeing due to brexit


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> It's blaming Covid but congestion at the ports is something we're seeing due to brexit



Tbf it isn't only Brexit.  The pandemic has badly disrupted global shipping, and there's still a shortage of containers in some places and a backlog of empty ones in others.  But it is true that Brexit isn't helping at all.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 26, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Tbf it isn't only Brexit.  The pandemic has badly disrupted global shipping, and there's still a shortage of containers in some places and a backlog of empty ones in others.  But it is true that Brexit isn't helping at all.



Double whammy of shit, triple if you count the vat changes


----------



## mauvais (Jan 26, 2021)

Anecdotal parcels update.

I ordered some trainers recently. Turns out they're dispatched from a fulfilment centre in Belgium. They got into the UK within a day and have been stuck somewhere called Stanford le Hope for a week. No estimate for delivery and loads of people reporting long delays. UPS are thoroughly useless and their lack of info is not entirely new but I suspect their operation is totally fucked.

On the other hand I also ordered something from Belfast and that's on its way fine via DHL, so far anyway.


----------



## inva (Jan 26, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Anecdotal parcels update.
> 
> I ordered some trainers recently. Turns out they're dispatched from a fulfilment centre in Belgium. They got into the UK within a day and have been stuck somewhere called Stanford le Hope for a week. No estimate for delivery and loads of people reporting long delays. UPS are thoroughly useless and their lack of info is not entirely new but I suspect their operation is totally fucked.


Totally fucked is an improvement on their usual level of service so I'd chalk that up as a win for brexit tbh.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 26, 2021)

Proper cunts trick.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2021)

Good news for orange lovers


----------



## two sheds (Jan 26, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Proper cunts trick.




Someone should clamp that van parked up by them, it shouldn't be parked there


----------



## TopCat (Jan 26, 2021)

Coronavirus: Vaccine supply fears grow amid EU export threat
					

The EU calls for "fair" distribution after vaccine companies cut back on pledged supplies.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



The EU threatens vaccine exports to the UK. 
Classy. 
No doubt the pyscho contingent will be along shortly urging remaining vaccine supply to be used for remoaners only.


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2021)

Be proud Brexiteers.



> The free trade deal means there are no quotas or tariffs on the goods traded between the EU and UK, but that doesn't mean there are no extra taxes or costs.
> Since 1 January the UK is no longer part of the EU VAT regime, so the UK government is applying VAT (sales tax) at 20% on goods from the EU, explains Gary Rycroft, a partner at Joseph A Jones & Co Solicitors.











						Brexit parcel price shock: 'I had to pay £30 for a gift'
					

It's not just shoppers facing surprise costs when EU parcels arrive, but what is behind the charges?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jan 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Coronavirus: Vaccine supply fears grow amid EU export threat
> 
> 
> The EU calls for "fair" distribution after vaccine companies cut back on pledged supplies.
> ...


I think what is happening is there's a shortage of vaccine and its unclear who will get what when.
That means the UK may not get what it expected at the time it expected.
The use of the word "threaten" seems a bit UKIPy to me. Lots of people have orders in, its a question of fair distribution with the limited supply. 
The UK has had more than most other countries so far.
This is an awkward situation, but I don't see any reason why it should be Britain First
?
Or have I misunderstood something here?


----------



## stdP (Jan 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Or have I misunderstood something here?



No-one's quite got the full story on this yet so I think it's a little early to jump to conclusions but it seems a bit tit-for-tat; it's come off the back of Astra Zeneca saying they can't meet the projected demand. EU wanted answers as to why, and wasn't satisfied with them (and this is the main part we don't know), so have threatened to introduce control on export not just of the AZ vaccine (being manufactured in Belgium but not actually ratified for use in the EU yet) but also any others.









						EU threatens to block Covid vaccine exports amid AstraZeneca shortfall
					

Bloc may receive only half of purchased 100m doses in first quarter of the year




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2021)

I don't think anybody is going to emerge from the sharp-elbowed race for vaccine supplies in moral credit, tbh. UK, EU, or anyone else.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Coronavirus: Vaccine supply fears grow amid EU export threat
> 
> 
> The EU calls for "fair" distribution after vaccine companies cut back on pledged supplies.
> ...



What's got into you?  Your posts read like the tweets of some angry red-faced bloke with a Union flag avatar.


----------



## gosub (Jan 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think what is happening is there's a shortage of vaccine and its unclear who will get what when.
> That means the UK may not get what it expected at the time it expected.
> The use of the word "threaten" seems a bit UKIPy to me. Lots of people have orders in, its a question of fair distribution with the limited supply.
> The UK has had more than most other countries so far.
> ...


Cos the EU hasn't even fucking cleared the Astra Zenica one,


----------



## toblerone3 (Jan 26, 2021)

Oh no my coat which I bought online from a Canadian website last month has been caught up in the Brexit shennigans and I am now going to be charged unspecified amounts of customs duty and other charges.   I'm surprised that this affects goods ordered from Canada. While it has passed through distribution centres in Frankfurt and Cologne, it was ordered by me in London from a Canadian website. So how do I get caught up in all of this.  I didn't asked for it to be shipped to Germany.


----------



## prunus (Jan 26, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Oh no my coat which I bought online from a Canadian website last month has been caught up in the Brexit shennigans and I am now going to be charged unspecified amounts of customs duty and other charges.   I'm surprised that this affects goods ordered from Canada. While it has passed through distribution centres in Frankfurt and Cologne, it was ordered by me in London from a Canadian website. So how do I get caught up in all of this.  I didn't asked for it to be shipped to Germany.



You used to be able to order from Canada under the arrangements the EU has with Canada. The Uk left the EU so left those arrangements, and hasn’t made any new arrangements, so default customs rules apply.

Presumably the company you ordered from had set up or used a centralised EU distribution hub for its own efficiency for all EU-bound goods, which would have worked well while the Uk was in the EU. They may make new arrangements for a UK hub at some point. But probably not until we have some trading agreement with Canada in place, in case it becomes prohibitive. Who knows.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2021)

stdP said:


> No-one's quite got the full story on this yet so I think it's a little early to jump to conclusions but it seems a bit tit-for-tat; it's come off the back of Astra Zeneca saying they can't meet the projected demand. EU wanted answers as to why, and wasn't satisfied with them (and this is the main part we don't know), so have threatened to introduce control on export not just of the AZ vaccine (being manufactured in Belgium but not actually ratified for use in the EU yet) but also any others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Fair to say that there is disquiet amongst many EU countries about vaccine roll out and supply through the EU procurement plan especially as non EU states like the UK and Switzerland have purchased large amounts .Italy threatened to sue,  Germany  ordered additional outside the vaccines and  Hungary has apparently approved the Russian Sputnik vaccine and is negotiating purchase in addition to the EU process. The German minister who has called for vaccine export certificates is obviously playing to his home audience.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Fair to say that there is disquiet amongst many EU countries about vaccine roll out and supply through the EU procurement plan especially as non EU states like the UK and Switzerland have purchased large amounts .Italy threatened to sue,  Germany  ordered additional outside the vaccines and  Hungary has apparently approved the Russian Sputnik vaccine and is negotiating purchase in addition to the EU process. The German minister who has called for vaccine export certificates is obviously playing to his home audience.


Like most of Europe's response to Covid, a bit of a mess.  Lots of failures at lots of levels, including the EU level.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2021)

AstraZeneca vaccine is mostly made in the UK, not in Belgium, Pfizer's is a Belgium thing.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Oh no my coat which I bought online from a Canadian website last month has been caught up in the Brexit shennigans and I am now going to be charged unspecified amounts of customs duty and other charges.   I'm surprised that this affects goods ordered from Canada. While it has passed through distribution centres in Frankfurt and Cologne, it was ordered by me in London from a Canadian website. So how do I get caught up in all of this.  I didn't asked for it to be shipped to Germany.




You can bet your bollocks it wasn't made in Canada though. Unless you've spent >£1000 on the thing it is odds on for manufacture in Bangladesh or similar, with materials shipped in from around the world, then the finished product shipped to Canada, then to Germany or wherever, then the UK. Really don't need to worry about touring bands and fucked incomes, the planet's about to die anyway.


----------



## magneze (Jan 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> AstraZeneca vaccine is mostly made in the UK, not in Belgium, Pfizer's is a Belgium thing.


It'll be interesting to see how the US reacts. Pfizer is a US company.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2021)

magneze said:


> It'll be interesting to see how the US reacts. Pfizer is a US company.



Would imagine they have a plant in the US too. Pfizer came up with Viagra, but that was developed in Kent. All these things are pretty global.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2021)

editor said:


> Be proud Brexiteers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The company you buy off in the EU should deduct the VAT at source, in nearly all countries it is the same or more than in the UK so there is no loss, unless as in the article you are being mugged off.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The company you buy off in the EU should deduct the VAT at source, in nearly all countries it is the same or more than in the UK so there is no loss, unless as in the article you are being mugged off.


I paid tax on a second hand cd on eBay from Germany about a week ago. I don't know the ins and outs of why. Perhaps nothing has changed except the tax is now stated, whereas before it was just the sellers business. But something somewhere is different.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 26, 2021)

This is interesting.









						EU citizens offered financial incentives to leave UK
					

European nationals added to voluntary returns scheme, which can include flights and up to £2,000 for resettlement




					www.theguardian.com
				




Wonder how many will take up the offer? Not many I'd expect if they have a job in the UK that pays a lot more than they could expect to earn in a similar role in their home country. Also, gutted for anyone who left in 2016-2020 and missed out on a free two grand!


----------



## Flavour (Jan 26, 2021)

I posted this on the other Brexit thread too but actually that one should just die a death really as transition period is over.

This is interesting.


*EU citizens offered financial incentives to leave UK*
European nationals added to voluntary returns scheme, which can include flights and up to £2,000 for resettlement




www.theguardian.com

Wonder how many will take up the offer? Not many I'd expect if they have a job in the UK that pays a lot more than they could expect to earn in a similar role in their home country. Also, gutted for anyone who left in 2016-2020 and missed out on a free two grand!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 26, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I paid tax on a second hand cd on eBay from Germany about a week ago. I don't know the ins and outs of why. Perhaps nothing has changed except the tax is now stated, whereas before it was just the sellers business. But something somewhere is different.




Duty has to be paid on goods that attract it and VAT on all goods that attract that too, however sellers selling to outside of the EU can sell at a zero-rate of VAT on all goods that are leaving the EU. This has been standard practice for decades so really unsure why there has been a flurry of stories of people apparently paying VAT twice.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2021)

What a fucking place we are in now. 

Voluntary returns scheme? Enoch would have approved.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Duty has to be paid on goods that attract it and VAT on all goods that attract that too, however sellers selling to outside of the EU can sell at a zero-rate of VAT on all goods that are leaving the EU. This has been standard practice for decades so really unsure why there has been a flurry of stories of people apparently paying VAT twice.


Only speculating, but in my case it might be because a second-hand cd on ebay doesn't attract German sales tax, but does attract import VAT.

I would guess it might also be the case that a lot of EU online stores haven't made any adjustments to the way they do things, so they are just paying their domestic tax as they always have.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 26, 2021)

I think we should withhold all vaccines from the EU until that bloke gets his ham sandwich back, together with a written apology.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 26, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I think we should withhold all vaccines from the EU until that bloke gets his ham sandwich back, together with a written apology.


They've probably put it in a drawer for him to collect next time he's coming in the other direction.


----------



## prunus (Jan 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You can bet your bollocks it wasn't made in Canada though. Unless you've spent >£1000 on the thing it is odds on for manufacture in Bangladesh or similar, with materials shipped in from around the world, then the finished product shipped to Canada, then to Germany or wherever, then the UK. Really don't need to worry about touring bands and fucked incomes, the planet's about to die anyway.



You’re almost certainly right - except that it might never have been to Canada even. They might keep stock in a German warehouse, or even ship directly from the manufacturing country. Ain’t globalisation great?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jan 26, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You can bet your bollocks it wasn't made in Canada though. Unless you've spent >£1000 on the thing it is odds on for manufacture in Bangladesh or similar, with materials shipped in from around the world, then the finished product shipped to Canada, then to Germany or wherever, then the UK. Really don't need to worry about touring bands and fucked incomes, the planet's about to die anyway.



Well apart from the world's about to die and problems of touring musicians you wouldn't expect to pay customs duties incurred in the supply and distribution network.  The supply costs should be covered in the price of the good as advertised on the website and distribution costs can be covered by a delivery charge or bundled into the cost of the good itself if it is free delivery as it was in this case. 

From the website  "[Firm] currently offers FREE SHIPPING on all orders. The estimated processing and delivery time using express shipping is approximately 3 - 5 business days. Please be aware, our shipping partners are experiencing COVID-19 related delays which may result in extended delivery times.....     Online purchases can be shipped to destinations within Canada, USA, Germany, UK, Ireland, Sweden, Denmark, Norway, France, Austria, Poland, Switzerland, Spain, Japan, Italy, Belgium, Czech Republic, Finland, Australia and the Netherlands. "


----------



## editor (Jan 26, 2021)

And the Brexit wins keep on coming 



> Mastercard will increase fees more than fivefold when a British shopper uses a debit or credit card to buy from an EU-based company, sparking alarm among companies that rely on online payments and concern among MPs over higher consumer prices. Mastercard and Visa levy an “interchange” fee on behalf of banks for every debit or credit card payment that uses their networks. The EU introduced a cap in 2015 after concerns the hidden fees were leading to hundreds of millions of euros in costs for companies and higher prices for consumers. But Mastercard has told merchants that the cap no longer applies to some transactions post-Brexit, because payments between the UK and European Economic Area are now deemed “inter-regional”. From October 15, Mastercard will charge 1.5 per cent of the transaction value for every online credit card payment from the UK to the EU, up from 0.3 per cent at the moment. For debit card payments, the fee will jump from 0.2 per cent to 1.15 per cent. The increase will benefit British banks and other card issuers, rather than Mastercard itself.







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2021)

And the rich get richer...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2021)

Flavour said:


> This is interesting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wonder if I should get Portuguese citizenship , you can have dual nationality here, and apply for this to cover the cost of the hotel quarantine flight and covid tests?


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> ask for *calvados* next time you're in a well-stocked bar. it's very pleasant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2021)

steeplejack said:


>


I'm assuming that's some allo allo reference I'm not getting


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 26, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I wonder if I should get Portuguese citizenship , you can have dual nationality here, and apply for this to cover the cost of the hotel quarantine flight and covid tests?


I very much doubt that they will give this to people who also hold British citizenship (assuming you do do?) It seems to only apply to EU citizens in the UK who haven't applied for or couldn't get Settled Status if I understand it correctly.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm assuming that's some allo allo reference I'm not getting



It actually pre-dates 'Allo 'Allo. It's from _Secret Army, _the quite serious occupation drama that 80s Tory and Queenie favourite Allo Allo ripped off._ 'Allo 'Allo_ was basically UKIP as a sitcom instead of a political party.

The character is the chief sinister Nazi in Secret Army, Kessler, whose tipple of choice was Calvados.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I think what is happening is there's a shortage of vaccine and its unclear who will get what when.
> That means the UK may not get what it expected at the time it expected.
> The use of the word "threaten" seems a bit UKIPy to me. Lots of people have orders in, its a question of fair distribution with the limited supply.
> The UK has had more than most other countries so far.
> ...


----------



## captainmission (Jan 26, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What a fucking place we are in now.
> 
> Voluntary returns scheme? Enoch would have approved.



Interesting side note - the  UK's current Voluntary return scheme (a combination of the  Assisted Voluntary Return of Irregular Migrants (AVRIM) & Assisted Voluntary Return for Families and Children (AVRFC) schemes) is a scheme that developed out of the Voluntary assisted return and reintegration programme for irregular non-EEA nationals( VARRP). This scheme was set up and co-funded by the Home Office and the EU commission.

Anyhow, let get back to talking about Enoch...


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 26, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'm assuming that's some allo allo reference I'm not getting





steeplejack said:


> It actually pre-dates 'Allo 'Allo. It's from _Secret Army, _the quite serious occupation drama that 80s Tory and Queenie favourite Allo Allo ripped off._ 'Allo 'Allo_ was basically UKIP as a sitcom instead of a political party.
> 
> The character is the chief sinister Nazi in Secret Army, Kessler, whose tipple of choice was Calvados.




Series 1, Episode 1 is here. Episode 2 here. Can't promise any more than that so apologies in advance for any random reader who gets hooked.
It is excellent. It's just .. 1970s. Old-fashioned and stagey.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 26, 2021)

captainmission said:


> Interesting side note - the  UK's current Voluntary return scheme (a combination of the  Assisted Voluntary Return of Irregular Migrants (AVRIM) & Assisted Voluntary Return for Families and Children (AVRFC) schemes) is a scheme that developed out of the Voluntary assisted return and reintegration programme for irregular non-EEA nationals( VARRP). This scheme was set up and co-funded by the Home Office and the EU commission.
> 
> Anyhow, let get back to talking about Enoch...


I didn't know that. The 'fortress Europe' aspect of the EU is something I don't like at all, and it is rather Enoch-like but on a European scale. 'Voluntary repatriation' was very much one of his things.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 27, 2021)

Enoch would support gunboats in the Med, keeping out refugees and migrants. He is dead but still there, on your side.


----------



## teqniq (Jan 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Enoch would support gunboats in the Med, keeping out refugees and migrants. He is dead but still there, on your side.


Whilst EU policy towards refugees is disgusting, people in glass houses etc... The UK is making it as difficult as possible for refugees to gain entry to the UK and in it's latest all-time low:









						Britain closes the door on unaccompanied child refugees
					

Campaigners warn decision to end safe route for lone minors will place children at risk of trafficking




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## rutabowa (Jan 27, 2021)

UK is shit, EU is also shit SURPRISE. I guess the UK in the EU would be shit squared? Or would it be the square root of shit, that is the question.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Whilst EU policy towards refugees is disgusting, people in glass houses etc... The UK is making it as difficult as possible for refugees to gain entry to the UK and in it's latest all-time low:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And the UK's recent record of accepting refugees is already shamefully poor. It was already near the bottom of the league inside the EU and is only likely to get even worse outside it.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Enoch would support gunboats in the Med, keeping out refugees and migrants. He is dead but still there, on your side.


Just a suggestion, but could we stop trying to guess on whose side of the Brexit debate dead nasty people would have been, or what line they might have taken on various contemporary issues? I mean, personally I am convinced that Genghis Kahn would have been a Brexiteer and a climate change denier, but you can never be completely sure, can you?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 27, 2021)

More problems for the wine industry


----------



## ska invita (Jan 27, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And the UK's recent record of accepting refugees is already shamefully poor. It was already near the bottom of the league inside the EU and is only likely to get even worse outside it.


And inversely the EU is the sum of its parts....in a way the EU is lucky to have the Tories out of it


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

ska invita said:


> And inversely the EU is the sum of its parts....in a way the EU is lucky to have the Tories out of it


Yep. This is one of the biggest nonsenses of many Leave arguments – the idea that the UK has somehow had the nasty EU imposed on it. In many ways, the EU has been fashioned and shaped in the image of Thatcher's Britain, under heavy influence from UK governments.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep. This is one of the biggest nonsenses of many Leave arguments – the idea that the UK has somehow had the nasty EU imposed on it. In many ways, the EU has been fashioned and shaped in the image of Thatcher's Britain, under heavy influence from UK governments.



Not least in the form of the single market, with which the splendidly named Lord Cockfield had more than a little to do.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Not least in the form of the single market, with which the splendidly named Lord Cockfield had more than a little to do.


"This is the sort of nonsense up with which I will not put" 







sorry, was actually an informative and nicely written post, I just came over all Churchillian


----------



## zora (Jan 27, 2021)

Random small practical question: I ordered a specialist electrical item worth around £100 from Germany in December. The sender didn't get it out in time before the 31 Dec, and refunded me the original payment and issued me with a new bill excluding the German VAT and said I would have to pay VAT here in the UK instead on delivery.
The person I ordered from is very much a one-man enterprise, so he did this mainly for ease of his own accounts I think, and I don't know if he understands the regulations correctly. Anyway, the item got delivered by Royal Mail yesterday with a customs declaration sticker from the sender on the parcel, but I didn't have to pay anything. 
Anyone knows anything what should be happening with this sort of thing?


----------



## Sunray (Jan 27, 2021)

The UK ordered from a non-US vaccine supplier and research team to ensure we had our own supply chain. They were understandably afraid of crazy presidents telling a US company they are taking all the vaccines. 
India has already done this with the Serum Institue which can produce an insane 50m vaccines a week.
Now the EU want to prevent Pfizer vaccines from going to the UK as we are now a third country.  Brexit reality.

It's kinda weird to watch impressive action on COVID vs inaction over vaccines when comparing UK v EU.   Shame such competence in the UK was limited to vaccines.


----------



## stdP (Jan 27, 2021)

zora said:


> Anyone knows anything what should be happening with this sort of thing?



AIUI it depends on the nature of the item being sent; some under the ~£140 barrier will attract charges and others won't.




			
				https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/customers-europe-hit-by-post-brexit-charges-buying-from-uk said:
			
		

> Despite the tariff-free deal, customs duties will apply to goods ordered from the UK that do not originate from Britain. Goods ordered from and manufactured in the UK should not attract customs duty, but products ordered from the UK worth more than that €150 and shipped from outside Britain will.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

In case anyone is unclear, AstraZeneca is a UK/Swedish company and the Oxford university they developed it with is the UK one, not the University of Mississippi which is in a different Oxford...


----------



## zora (Jan 27, 2021)

Ah thanks, that explains that it was under the threshold.
However, it seems that around £20 in VAT is now lost completely to either/both Germany or the UK? And is customs duty in that sense the same as VAT?🤔

Just had a look at this, seems to say that the seller should have applied VAT at point of sale after all - but maybe that would only apply if it was a seller based in the UK..? 





						VAT and overseas goods sold directly to customers in the UK
					

How sellers deal with VAT for goods from overseas that they sell direct to customers in the UK.




					www.gov.uk
				




Don't really understand it, but thankfully I don't really need to atm, just idling away another lockdown day...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

zora said:


> Random small practical question: I ordered a specialist electrical item worth around £100 from Germany in December. The sender didn't get it out in time before the 31 Dec, and refunded me the original payment and issued me with a new bill excluding the German VAT and said I would have to pay VAT here in the UK instead on delivery.
> The person I ordered from is very much a one-man enterprise, so he did this mainly for ease of his own accounts I think, and I don't know if he understands the regulations correctly. Anyway, the item got delivered by Royal Mail yesterday with a customs declaration sticker from the sender on the parcel, but I didn't have to pay anything.
> Anyone knows anything what should be happening with this sort of thing?


You just need to keep quiet lest they find a charge for you


----------



## two sheds (Jan 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You just need to keep quiet lest they find a charge for you



Yes that was my first reaction to "what should be happening with this sort of thing?"


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

killer b said:


> according to their website they do supply the UK - seems unlikely that they can just dump a load of extra langoustines on the market and expect them to sell, especially with all the restaurants closed.



Perhaps, if we weren't under a Tory govt, we could have had a "Seafood Marketing Board" that had promotion of eating seafood as its _raison d'etre_? We could do the same with other stuff like dairy produce, meat & swedes.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Of course it would - and does -  but not in anywhere near the quantity or at anywhere near the price it has done up til now, so it won't be worth at least some of the catchers' and processors' while to deal with it.
> 
> But if you want to be narky about it, are you ready to admit you were wrong yet?



Sadly, we've lost our taste for fish, over the last 50 yrs or so, partly as a function of pricing, & partly because some seafoods came to be perceived as "posh".


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps, if we weren't under a Tory govt, we could have had a "Seafood Marketing Board" that had promotion of eating seafood as its _raison d'etre_? We could do the same with other stuff like dairy produce, meat & swedes.


we could have a white elephant export board, which would oversee the export of the rich to the south atlantic industrial zone


----------



## killer b (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> swedes.


I was idly wondering the other day how much of the british swede crop goes to cornwall for their pasties. must be a lot.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was idly wondering the other day how much of the british swede crop goes to cornwall for their pasties. must be a lot.


as the west country equivalent of coals to newcastle is swedes to cornwall i'll leave you to judge


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was idly wondering the other day how much of the british swede crop goes to cornwall for their pasties. must be a lot.



I'm a swede fan (in soups & stews), but you probably have a point there. Cornish pasties are the only commercially-produced food I can think of that uses swede.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sadly, we've lost our taste for fish, over the last 50 yrs or so, partly as a function of pricing, & partly because some seafoods came to be perceived as "posh".



I don't think that's really true actually.  Fish consumption declined in the UK after World War II, but then started to rise again from the mid-70s and AFAIK (though I have not seen figures for the last few years) is still slowly creeping up, and that despite how expensive the Great British Consumer's favourite species have become.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we could have a white elephant export board, which would oversee the export of the rich to the south atlantic industrial zone



The industrial zone should have barbecue pits spread around, so that hungry guest-workers can eat each other conveniently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> The industrial zone should have barbecue pits spread around, so that hungry guest-workers can eat each other conveniently.


as you well know the zone only received its funding on the proviso that one 'output' would be feed pellets for the penguins of the south atlantic: and hungry former people eating each other would necessarily impact the volume of feed pellets the penguins would receive. let the former people eat kelp


----------



## gosub (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Perhaps, if we weren't under a Tory govt, we could have had a "Seafood Marketing Board" that had promotion of eating seafood as its _raison d'etre_? We could do the same with other stuff like dairy produce, meat & swedes.











						Seafish | Home
					

Seafish is a UK public body supporting the seafood industry to thrive. Visit our site for seafood industry data, guidance, advice and training.




					www.seafish.org


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> I don't think that's really true actually.  Fish consumption declined in the UK after World War II, but then started to rise again from the mid-70s and AFAIK (though I have not seen figures for the last few years) is still slowly creeping up, and that despite how expensive the Great British Consumer's favourite species have become.



My local - now gone - fishmonger was adamant that 1 of the biggest issues was that his average customer wouldn't experiment with new fish, whereas in his grandad's time (they opened in the 30s) people would try anything new in a fish stew, or a pie, then maybe try it steamed, fried or roasted if they liked the flavour. 
Part of the rise may well be due to a growth in European immigrants, as opposed to British consumption. Certainly even my landlocked Hungarian friends tend to eat more fish, prepared more ways, than my English friends do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> as you well know the zone only received its funding on the proviso that one 'output' would be feed pellets for the penguins of the south atlantic: and hungry former people eating each other would necessarily impact the volume of feed pellets the penguins would receive. let the former people eat kelp



Penguins should always come first.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> My local - now gone - fishmonger was adamant that 1 of the biggest issues was that his average customer wouldn't experiment with new fish, whereas in his grandad's time (they opened in the 30s) people would try anything new in a fish stew, or a pie, then maybe try it steamed, fried or roasted if they liked the flavour.
> Part of the rise may well be due to a growth in European immigrants, as opposed to British consumption. Certainly even my landlocked Hungarian friends tend to eat more fish, prepared more ways, than my English friends do.


there is no need, in my opinion, to have fish cooked any other way than smoked (esp in the case of herrings) or fried and battered (esp in the case of haddock)


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sadly, we've lost our taste for fish, over the last 50 yrs or so, partly as a function of pricing, & partly because some seafoods came to be perceived as "posh".



We still eat plenty of fish but only specific types of fish for the most part, focussing on the easy ones like Mackerel, Cod, Haddock, that sort of thing, and eating those in quantity. Keith Floyd was moaning about this in the 70's during one of his shows.

Those dishes you get abroad where you shove an array of weird sealife in a stew and hope its not in a shell are a rarity on the British table.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> My local - now gone - fishmonger was adamant that 1 of the biggest issues was that his average customer wouldn't experiment with new fish, whereas in his grandad's time (they opened in the 30s) people would try anything new in a fish stew, or a pie, then maybe try it steamed, fried or roasted if they liked the flavour.
> Part of the rise may well be due to a growth in European immigrants, as opposed to British consumption. Certainly even my landlocked Hungarian friends tend to eat more fish, prepared more ways, than my English friends do.



I have seen it argued - plausibly - that fish has come to be seen as a healthy alternative to meat, which may well account for some of the rise in consumption, but I'd agree immigration probably also accounts for a proportion of it, especially of species other than the old fish-and-chip-shop staples.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We still eat plenty of fish but only specific types of fish for the most part, focussing on the easy ones like Mackerel, Cod, Haddock, that sort of thing, and eating those in quantity. Keith Floyd was moaning about this in the 70's during one of his shows.
> 
> Those dishes you get abroad where you shove an array of weird sealife in a stew and hope its not in a shell are a rarity on the British table.



True. When I bought a "weird array of sea-life" from one of the fish stalls in Brixton market, I did get asked if I was making bouillabaisse. I said "nah, fish stew, mate!".


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> I have seen it argued - plausibly - that fish has come to be seen as a healthy alternative to meat, which may well account for some of the rise in consumption, but I'd agree immigration probably also accounts for a proportion of it, especially of species other than the old fish-and-chip-shop staples.



I'd love to see people eating halibut as a replacement for red meat. It's dense, has excellent flavour, & can be cooked in most of the same ways a tuna or swordfish steak can, as well as diced for a stew. It also has a much smaller carbon footprint than beef!
A Trinidadian mate got me eating red snapper - which tastes great, but DOES have a big carbon footprint - & I like gurnard, both just grilled/barbecued.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> I'd love to see people eating halibut as a replacement for red meat. It's dense, has excellent flavour, & can be cooked in most of the same ways a tuna or swordfish steak can, as well as diced for a stew. It also has a much smaller carbon footprint than beef!
> A Trinidadian mate got me eating red snapper - which tastes great, but DOES have a big carbon footprint - & I like gurnard, both just grilled/barbecued.



I love halibut, but I'd be wary of recommending people eat it: large demersal fish like that are very vulnerable to fishing pressure.  Personally, I'd like to see people eating a lot more pelagic species such as herring and mackerel, which reproduce quickly and therefore tend to bounce back well even if overfished, and are often caught fairly near home.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> I love halibut, but I'd be wary of recommending people eat it: large demersal fish like that are very vulnerable to fishing pressure.  Personally, I'd like to see people eating a lot more pelagic species such as herring and mackerel, which reproduce quickly and therefore tend to bounce back well even if overfished, and are often caught fairly near home.


And are cheap, good for you, and tasty! 

Fresh mackerel is a hugely underrated delicacy imho.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> A Trinidadian mate got me eating red snapper - which tastes great, but DOES have a big carbon footprint - & I like gurnard, both just grilled/barbecued.


Red snapper is indeed great, as is gurnard. You have expensive tastes, though.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> I love halibut, but I'd be wary of recommending people eat it: large demersal fish like that are very vulnerable to fishing pressure.  Personally, I'd like to see people eating a lot more pelagic species such as herring and mackerel, which reproduce quickly and therefore tend to bounce back well even if overfished, and are often caught fairly near home.


a decline in herring stocks part of the cause of a decline in successful humpback whale pregnancies apparently Humpback whales may be struggling to breed as climate crisis depletes food


----------



## Supine (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Penguins should always come first.



I'd have thought that would be the main course


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> a decline in herring stocks part of the cause of a decline in successful humpback whale pregnancies apparently Humpback whales may be struggling to breed as climate crisis depletes food



True, but that decline is evidently down to warming oceans rather than overfishing.

That said, it's certainly possible to overfish pelagics like herring and mackerel: the North Sea herring stock collapsed due to massive fsihing pressure at the end of the 70s, although - unlike the Grand Banks cod - it did then recover.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 27, 2021)

killer b said:


> I was idly wondering the other day how much of the british swede crop goes to cornwall for their pasties. must be a lot.



Lots of swede is used for animal feed.

Sadly there was no way to phrase that sentence so that it didn't rhyme.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> And are cheap, good for you, and tasty!
> 
> Fresh mackerel is a hugely underrated delicacy imho.



Couldn't agree more.  It sounds a bit Victorian, but I am very fond of devilled mackerel, and smoked mackerel pate is one of my signature dishes...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Lots of swede is used for animal feed.
> 
> Sadly there was no way to phrase that sentence so that it didn't rhyme.


lots of swede is used for animal fodder


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Aren't Barbours made in Newcastle?
> Really nice coats. We shall all dress like @Spymaster



Corrected that for you.


----------



## Supine (Jan 27, 2021)




----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

Supine said:


>



i never thought boris johnson would be the man to stop the city


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Red snapper is indeed great, as is gurnard. You have expensive tastes, though.



Sadly true!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Couldn't agree more.  It sounds a bit Victorian, but I am very fond of devilled mackerel, and smoked mackerel pate is one of my signature dishes...


My dad still cold-smokes (as opposed to the widely-available hot-smoked) mackerel to use in his version of kedgeree, which is usually quite spicy.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> True, but that decline is evidently down to warming oceans rather than overfishing.
> 
> That said, it's certainly possible to overfish pelagics like herring and mackerel: the North Sea herring stock collapsed due to massive fsihing pressure at the end of the 70s, although - unlike the Grand Banks cod - it did then recover.



When you over-fish to the extent that your catch diminishes by 99% over 2 decades, a recovery seems unlikely short of a complete fisheries ban, & savagely punitive policing of the fishery.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You got asked the same question.



Which was a basic "yes or no" in a referendum that was sold to us as "advisory" - that is, the answer to the referendum was supposed to feed further referendums regarding the customs union, freedom of movement, etc. That didn't happen.

Before you piss your bed & accuse me of being a remainer, I voted leave. What I didn't vote for, was a Tory "fuck you all" Brexit.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> When you over-fish to the extent that your catch diminishes by 99% over 2 decades, a recovery seems unlikely short of a complete fisheries ban, & savagely punitive policing of the fishery.



Well, that's effectively what happened in both cases, though the North Sea ban was less complete because herring continued to come up as bycatch.  Nevertheless, the herring stock did recover, whereas cod didn't.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which was a basic "yes or no" in a referendum that was sold to us as "advisory" - that is, the answer to the referendum was supposed to feed further referendums regarding the customs union, freedom of movement, etc. That didn't happen.
> 
> Before you piss your bed & accuse me of being a remainer, I voted leave. What I didn't vote for, was a Tory "fuck you all" Brexit.


Hey VP. I just get vexed here over the endless insults and sneery remarks towards anyone who voted leave. 
It has not brought out the best in me for sure.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 27, 2021)

Pah! TC u Brexit snowflake


----------



## Supine (Jan 27, 2021)

<deleted - old link>


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Which was a basic "yes or no" in a referendum that was sold to us as "advisory" - that is, the answer to the referendum was supposed to feed further referendums regarding the customs union, freedom of movement, etc. That didn't happen.



This is gash, never heard the words ‘advisory’ and ‘referendum’ together until long after June 2016. Certainly don’t recall it ever being ‘sold as advisory’ at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is gash, never heard the words ‘advisory’ and ‘referendum’ together until long after June 2016. Certainly don’t recall it ever being ‘sold as advisory’ at all.


The advisory nature, if advisory it was, was undermined by the hmg thing we all got saying we will legislate on what you decide


----------



## Supine (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is gash, never heard the words ‘advisory’ and ‘referendum’ together until long after June 2016. Certainly don’t recall it ever being ‘sold as advisory’ at all.



it was - but that didn't get the headlines


----------



## Winot (Jan 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> it was - but that didn't get the headlines



There’s the legal/constitutional position which is that it was advisory, and there’s the political reality, which is that the people were told that the govt would do what they were told. The govt should never have promised that but they did and so that was that.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 27, 2021)

Was only advisory if they didn't get the result they wanted


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

Winot said:


> There’s the legal/constitutional position which is that it was advisory, and there’s the political reality, which is that the people were told that the govt would do what they were told. The govt should never have promised that but they did and so that was that.


Yeah, Cameron made a big self-righteous performance about it cos he didn't imagine he'd lose - 'we take our instructions from the British people'


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

Supine said:


> it was - but that didn't get the headlines



It was? It was sold as it, as claimed, or it was advisory? We know it was advisory, a referendum in the U.K. can be nothing else due to our lack of codified constitution. What I don’t recall is it ever being sold as advisory though..?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is gash, never heard the words ‘advisory’ and ‘referendum’ together until long after June 2016. Certainly don’t recall it ever being ‘sold as advisory’ at all.


That twat Peston used the term weeks before the referendum, stating (to paraphrase) "of course, the govt will then hold further referendums as to the detail of an exit, if one is voted for".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> That twat Peston used the term weeks before the referendum, stating (to paraphrase) "of course, the govt will then hold further referendums as to the detail of an exit, if one is voted for".



Aristo know-nothing prick.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This is gash, never heard the words ‘advisory’ and ‘referendum’ together until long after June 2016. Certainly don’t recall it ever being ‘sold as advisory’ at all.


In your parliamentary system, where parliament is officially the be-all and end-all of politics, then all referenda are by definition advisory. But that makes no difference to the necessity of accepting the outcome of the referendum.

In Ireland, the referendum is a normal, ordinary, everyday part of politics. In the Westminster system, it is abnormal and extraordinary. It could only arise in the context of a breakdown in normal parliamentary life, such as when a devolved assembly has to be set up in the outer reaches of the periphery, or when a major political party is irrevocably split over  a major, vital issue like membership of the EU.

It was necessary to destroy the village (accept the legitimacy of the referendum result) in order to save it (parliamentary supremacy).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Aristo know-nothing prick.



You calling me an aristo?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Aristo know-nothing prick.



He's a government mouthpiece then and now. He's certainly a far cry from any sort of journalist


----------



## Raheem (Jan 27, 2021)

Northern Ireland eels can’t be sold in Britain after Brexit
					

Fishermen say new changes mean they will have to find new markets




					www.independent.co.uk
				




I haven't eaten eel since one time when my dad caught one when I was a kid.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 27, 2021)

Eels should be not be sold anywhere tbf. Euro eel is virtually finished. The only one we should be munching on is the lion fish but that hasn’t got here in numbers. Yet


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Eels should be not be sold anywhere tbf. Euro eel is virtually finished



This.  There's also the fact that eels are revolting.

<scarpers>


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 27, 2021)

Eel sushi's nice. Think that might be a different kind of eel though.

I've eaten jellied eels once in a trad pie and mash shop. Not in a rush to repeat the experience.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 27, 2021)

It’s the Japanese freshwater eel in sushi. Different but endangered I think


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> This.  There's also the fact that eels are revolting.
> 
> <scarpers>


 
I always had a soft spot for eels tbf. Their migration makes the more famous salmon look like lightweights.


----------



## Roadkill (Jan 27, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> I always had a soft spot for eels tbf. Their migration makes the more famous salmon look like lightweights.



Oh aye, they're amazing creatures, but eating them is like chewing on a fish-flavoured bath sponge.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> There's also the fact that eels are revolting.


Good on them - about time.


----------



## fishfinger (Jan 27, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> Oh aye, they're amazing creatures, but eating them is like chewing on a fish-flavoured bath sponge.


Au Cointreau Rodney, they are tray delis-yer!


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

US-EU Thread...


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

Britain and EU clash over claims to UK-produced Covid vaccine
					

EU health commissioner dismisses AstraZeneca argument it is contractually obliged to supply UK first




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

The EU's vaccine bust-up with AstraZeneca is partly of its own making | Leo Cendrowicz
					

Slowness to sign up to and approve the vaccine may have caused delays, but Brussels feels the company is being less than cooperative, says Leo Cendrowicz




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The EU's vaccine bust-up with AstraZeneca is partly of its own making | Leo Cendrowicz
> 
> 
> Slowness to sign up to and approve the vaccine may have caused delays, but Brussels feels the company is being less than cooperative, says Leo Cendrowicz
> ...



Also this 








						EU pays 336 million euros to secure AstraZeneca's potential COVID-19 vaccine
					

The European Commission has made a 336 million euro ($396 million) downpayment to British drug maker AstraZeneca <AZN.L> to secure at least 300 million doses of its potential COVID-19 vaccine, a spokesman said on Thursday.




					mobile.reuters.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

Why has the EU been so slow to roll out a Covid vaccination programme? | Guntram Wolff
					

Europe was not prepared for the pandemic, but it must now learn lessons and use all its financial and political resources, says Guntram Wolff, director of the Bruegel thinktank




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

This looks like its quickly getting ugly.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This looks like its quickly getting ugly.


It's not already?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It's not already?


Well this quote from the first Guardian article is pretty heated and indicates a more polarised attitude than was expressed a few days ago.  

"If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


>



The CEO of AstraZeneca has said a lot, directly, in the last 24 hours. Worth reading.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well this quote from the first Guardian article is pretty heated and indicates a more polarised attitude than was expressed a few days ago.
> 
> "If there is anyone thinking that European citizens would accept that we give this high quality vaccine to the United Kingdom and would accept to be treated as second class by a UK-based company, I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”


what do you think should happen?

my only thought is that as many lives are save as possible, which means it is a priority that over 70s get vaccinated, on which grounds those countries that havent got the vaccine out yet should get priority


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what do you think should happen?
> 
> my only thought is that as many lives are save as possible, which means it is a priority that over 70s get vaccinated, on which grounds those countries that havent got the vaccine out yet should get priority


So you think the rollout should be clinically led, worldwide?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

But it's a bit abstract today whereas this disagreement between the EU and the UK is happening now and surely invites a view, post brexit?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So you think the rollout should be clinically led, worldwide?


In an ideal world each according to need
In this case some international solidarity in the spirit of saving lives
Bollocks to Covid nationalism
Johnson is going to Scotland today to Save The Union - his message (supposeldy)? I can get you vaccines ahead of others in the EU. Cunt


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think the only consequence can be to immediately stop the export of the BioNTech/Pfizer vaccine. And then we are in the middle of a trade war. So the company and the UK better think twice.”



You're not exactly selling brexit as a good thing at the moment


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In an ideal world each according to need
> In this case some international solidarity in the spirit of saving lives


Ok. But any comment on this current, fast moving disagreement?


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

This looks really bad doesn’t it. Of all the things to have a trade war about .  









						Why the EU and AstraZeneca are stuck in a Covid vaccines row
					

Explainer: AstraZeneca’s Pascal Soriot gives insight into ‘glitches’ that constrained production




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Ok. But any comment on this current, fast moving disagreement?


What do you think should happen?

To me sounds like a shitshow between self-interested nation-states acting selfishly within a marketplace, so nothing to do with me
Tories are pinning all their incompetence and death rate on having best been able to buy a vaccine before others <as a rule of thumb  fuck them and their endless corrupt procurements.
i have no allegiance to any particular nation-state here, certainly not BRITAIN FIRST, my allegiance is with the most vulnerable.
i hope that doesn't sound too self-righteous but ive just woken up and i get like this at 7am before tea


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> US-EU Thread...



I'm not all that interested in the precise details but I did read a  piece in the FT about the ongoing City arrangements, best summarised as London being a slowly deflating balloon, though no other particular EU city has yet claimed the mantle, though the direction seems to be steadily towards these other EU centres. That Twitter thread suggests the speed of the deflating balloon might be more like a sat on whoopie cushion

I suppose this is good news on one level in that Im personally happy to see UK Casino PLC get a kicking and a slow deflation is better than an overnight collapse. Worth remembering that IIRC two thirds of City jobs are all support work (IT, cleaning, offices jobs etc etc). Just maybe London might become a bit more of the liveable city it once was before the bankers skyscrapers went up


^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ 
i expect theres going to be a lot of this kind of delusion going on the next few years


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What do you think should happen?
> 
> To me sounds like a shitshow between self-interested nation-states acting selfishly within a marketplace, so nothing to do with me
> Tories are pinning all their incompetence and death rate on having best been able to buy a vaccine before others <as a rule of thumb  fuck them and their endless corrupt procurements.
> ...


I think all sides should tone down any public spats and try and diffuse the tensions before the jingoistic types on both sides make a meal out of it.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think all sides should tone down any public spats and try and diffuse the tensions before the jingoistic types on both sides make a meal out of it.



Yeah, that's not going to happen though after the last 5 years saw the loonspuds invited inside


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think all sides should tone down any public spats and try and diffuse the tensions before the jingoistic types on both sides make a meal out of it.


The only way thats going to happen is if the Tories make a concession on how much vaccine the EU gets
The Tories are already staking all their political-covid-eggs on the vaccine, so no chance of that, particularly in the shadow of Britain First Brexit
So I can only see this escalating.


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

Icelandic seafood exporters to bypass Immingham for Rotterdam
					

Brexit delays cause Iceland to adapt. Iceland Review reports that delays and interruptions due to new Brexit rules mean that Icelandic exporters are moving seafood to Europe through Rotterdam, Netherlands, instead of Immingham docks, 6 miles from Grimsby, eastern England. Back in February 2020...




					salmonbusiness.com
				






> Iceland Review reports that delays and interruptions due to new Brexit rules mean that Icelandic exporters are moving seafood to Europe through Rotterdam, Netherlands, instead of Immingham docks, 6 miles from Grimsby, eastern England


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What do you think should happen?
> 
> To me sounds like a shitshow between self-interested nation-states acting selfishly within a marketplace, so nothing to do with me
> Tories are pinning all their incompetence and death rate on having best been able to buy a vaccine before others <as a rule of thumb  fuck them and their endless corrupt procurements.
> ...


From what I've read, the EU haven't even approved the AZ vaccine yet.

And if we're really seeking to prioritize the most vulnerable worldwide, I'm not convinced that the EU seeking to force suppliers of vaccine to supply EU countries first is the way to go.

The EU are not "the goodies" here, by any stretch of the imagination


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

I just looked at the papers headlines. Brink of war some of them.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just looked at the papers headlines. Brink of war some of them.


war is what my-nation-state first + protectionism is all about, see history for details, no?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I just looked at the papers headlines. Brink of war some of them.



That German MEP prick with his “they better think twice” “they will be made to suffer” isn’t exactly toning shit down. This over a vaccine that is not even approved for use in Germany or any other EU country.


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> war is what my-nation-state first + protectionism is all about, see history for details, no?



perhaps that could be avoided by forming a union of nation states that collaborate together


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

One does wonder how AstraZeneca producing the vaccine on a not for profit basis as opposed to Pfizer and Moderna who are taking a handsome profit is clouding some of the EU’s people’s judgment here, with no profit being anathema to the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> war is what my-nation-state first + protectionism is all about, see history for details, no?


I was looking at European papers too.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> what do you think should happen?
> 
> my only thought is that as many lives are save as possible, which means it is a priority that over 70s get vaccinated, on which grounds those countries that havent got the vaccine out yet should get priority



The priority groups are actually decided  by each members state , not by the EU, and vary.  Can you imagine the  outcry if  they weren't?


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One does wonder how AstraZeneca producing the vaccine on a not for profit basis as opposed to Pfizer and Moderna who are taking a handsome profit is clouding some of the EU’s people’s judgment here, with no profit being anathema to the EU.


Do you seriously wonder this? Like the reason there’s a row about the contract is cos EU people are cross that it’s a non profit vaccine because EU people like profit? I don’t think so .


----------



## teuchter (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you seriously wonder this? Like the reason there’s a row about the contract is cos EU people are cross that it’s a non profit vaccine because EU people like profit? I don’t think so .


Yes, seems a bit far fetched to me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> One does wonder how AstraZeneca producing the vaccine on a not for profit basis as opposed to Pfizer and Moderna who are taking a handsome profit is clouding some of the EU’s people’s judgment here, with no profit being anathema to the EU.


No profit is anathema in the EU, even rates of 1000% are seen as acceptable


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

Good thing the UK is an anti profit kind of a place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good thing the UK is an anti profit kind of a place.


Oh I wasn't counterposing the UK as any different
Can't see Boris Johnson coming out with Edward heath's comment about the unacceptable face of capitalism


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you seriously wonder this? Like the reason there’s a row about the contract is cos EU people are cross that it’s a non profit vaccine because EU people like profit? I don’t think so .




Why do you think there is a row? Why are they singling out AstraZeneca when the Pfizer vaccine is suffering similar issues? I am not suggesting that they are pissed off about the not for profit nature of the AstraZeneca one, they are pissed off at the UK seemingly having a better time of things just after the divorce, in the same way as many abusive former partners get the hump in similar situations and plot all sorts of nasty shit to be heaped upon the ex-partner. I do think that the not for profit nature of it does instinctively put neo-liberal backs up in such as way that they are distrustful of it, so any issues with it riles them more than it otherwise would or should.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good thing the UK is an anti profit kind of a place.



Of course not, but every now and then the right thing is done, see Tim Berners-Lee and the WWW...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why do you think there is a row? Why are they singling out AstraZeneca when the Pfizer vaccine is suffering similar issues? I am not suggesting that they are pissed off about the not for profit nature of the AstraZeneca one, they are pissed off at the UK seemingly having a better time of things just after the divorce, in the same way as many abusive former partners get the hump in similar situations and plot al sorts of nasty shit to be heaped upon the ex-partner. I do think that the not for profit nature of it does instinctively put neo-liberal backs up in such as way that they are distrustful of it, so any issues with it riles them more than it otherwise would or should.


I don't think that's right at all, I think they honestly think they should come first and are blind to how this looks


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

I think all this is mad projection & speculation tbh. It comes down to a disagreement about the meaning of the terms of a contract signed months ago, which contract hasn’t been made public but probably will be made available to look at later today.


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Why do you think there is a row? Why are they singling out AstraZeneca when the Pfizer vaccine is suffering similar issues? I am not suggesting that they are pissed off about the not for profit nature of the AstraZeneca one, they are pissed off at the UK seemingly having a better time of things just after the divorce, in the same way as many abusive former partners get the hump in similar situations and plot all sorts of nasty shit to be heaped upon the ex-partner. I do think that the not for profit nature of it does instinctively put neo-liberal backs up in such as way that they are distrustful of it, so any issues with it riles them more than it otherwise would or should.



You dont honestly believe the AZ is not for profit do you?  There are billions of pounds to play for with covid vaccines.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think that's right at all, I think they honestly think they should come first and are blind to how this looks




Seeing as the fucking thing is not even approved for use within the EU, you may well be right.


----------



## magneze (Jan 28, 2021)

The vaccine isn't even approved in the EU.

Looks like the EU completely fucked it all up vaccine-wise and Britain & AstraZeneca are a convenient scapegoat. The EU don't go after Pfizer even though it's a similar situation because it's a US company - they go after the smaller. Bullies, in short.

I'm not defending our government here. Given the same situation they'd do the same.

However, I can't see the government backing down at all here. The vaccine is basically the ONLY thing that might be going ok COVID-19 wise.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

Supine said:


> You dont honestly believe the AZ is not for profit do you?  There are billions of pounds to play for with covid vaccines.




It is at least until July 2021. Two reasons, they took a lot of public money to develop it (a larger % was private dough though), and they want to get it out all over the world, including the poorest nations as soon as possible. This is why it was developed to be stored in a regular fridge, the Pfizer one is no good for most of the developing world due to the need to store it at -70. Moderna by compression took all its funding from the public purse and intends to return profits to shareholders. Which is nice.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think that's right at all, I think they honestly think they should come first and are blind to how this looks


it's almost like they (those in positions of power within the EU, not the general population) are in the habit of using their economic power to get their own way in negotiations and other deals, and are genuinely confused when that doesn't work (and yes, I'm sure the British government would love to be able to do the same thing too)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think all this is mad projection & speculation tbh.


You say that like it's a bad thing


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think all this is mad projection & speculation tbh. It comes down to a disagreement about the meaning of the terms of a contract signed months ago, which *contract hasn’t been made public but probably will be made available to look at later today.*



Earlier in the month I was trying to find out costs of the vaccine.  The European Commission  did a press release on January  8th  re vaccine negotiations in which it said  





> the terms of the contracts with the EU are not publicly available during this phase of intense global competition.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think all this is mad projection & speculation tbh. It comes down to a disagreement about the meaning of the terms of a contract signed months ago, which contract hasn’t been made public but probably will be made available to look at later today.



I think I'll probably put my money on AZ TBH - they write contracts about vaccines all the time, and had three months prior experience with the UK contract, while the Commission have none of that, and both they and the member states are taking huge political heat for the vaccine program within the EU (in the many ways that manifests itself) being an absolute gangfuck.

I think the EU have fucked it, some of the member states have fucked it - and as Bahnhof Strasse suggests - there's a lot of political bitterness within the EU about Brexit.

There's an old political maxim that I like: if you offend someone enough they'll believe anything. I think there's enough bitterness and rancour about that the EU has allowed by itself to plunge down some rabbit holes.


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

It’s all very interesting, vaccines in a pandemic isn’t like a trade war over idk the price of fish.
Just had a google and see that India’s started exporting their own licensed AZ vaccine with a lot of look at us how we are helping you our poor neighbours. it’s all going to grind on for years and be massively political, of course.


----------



## MickiQ (Jan 28, 2021)

At the end of the day no-one wants to be labelled as the 'Bad Guy' here. There will be a public pissing contest between AZ  & the EU with the UK Govt sticking its oar in to muddy the water. However over the next couple of days a compromise that no-one likes but they can all accept will get worked out.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

It gets curiouser and curiouser . I'm not sure how exactly these things work but last week the European Ombudsman started an inquiry into the European Commissions contracts with vaccine suppliers over two complaints .One  relating  to the Commission allegedly denying access to its COVID-19 vaccine contract with AstraZeneca, the first contract which the Commission signed last year.The second complaint is about the Commission’s reported refusal to disclose documents related to the vaccine negotiations.

Earlier this month, the Commission invited MEPs to read a redacted version of the CureVac contract ( one of six syuppliers to the EU) under strict conditions in a reading room of the European Parliament. The five other contracts remain confidential, with neither MEPs nor the general public having any access to the texts. .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

According to the NHS the AstraZeneca vaccine contains products of animal origin, so the Dutch will just flush it down the bog anyway.


----------



## xenon (Jan 28, 2021)

magneze said:


> The vaccine isn't even approved in the EU.
> 
> Looks like the EU completely fucked it all up vaccine-wise and Britain & AstraZeneca are a convenient scapegoat. The EU don't go after Pfizer even though it's a similar situation because it's a US company - they go after the smaller. Bullies, in short.
> 
> ...



Yep. As far as I can tell so far, the UK signed contracts months before the EU, took the risk, now the EU are saying give us some of that stuff you've paid for or else.

If it needs stating, I'm no fan of our govt or Brexit but the EU are clearly in the wrong here. Why don't they throw some money at it and sort out AZ's supply chain problem over there.


----------



## xenon (Jan 28, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> At the end of the day no-one wants to be labelled as the 'Bad Guy' here. There will be a public pissing contest between AZ  & the EU with the UK Govt sticking its oar in to muddy the water. However over the next couple of days a compromise that no-one likes but they can all accept will get worked out.


I think the UK govt and rightly so are staying out of it. Well unless AZ go back on the contract they have with the UK. This is only making the EU look bad.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

xenon said:


> Yep. As far as I can tell so far, the UK signed contracts months before the EU, took the risk, now the EU are saying give us some of that stuff you've paid for or else.
> 
> If it needs stating, I'm no fan of our govt or Brexit but the EU are clearly in the wrong here. Why don't they throw some money at it and sort out AZ's supply chain problem over there.


It's not a throw-money type problem. afaict, they had a batch at their plant in Belgium which went awry and yielded only a small amount of vaccine, meaning there are just fewer doses available than they projected.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

xenon said:


> Why don't they throw some money at it and sort out AZ's supply chain problem over there.



Because this isn't about getting their hands on the vaccine and more demonstrating that the EU as a block is a better proposition than countries acting unilaterally. We'll be seeing this crap happening for years to come. Invest in popcorn and deckchairs.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 28, 2021)

Good distraction from the over 100000 dead mind


----------



## magneze (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because this isn't about getting their hands on the vaccine and more demonstrating that the EU as a block is a better proposition than countries acting unilaterally. We'll be seeing this crap happening for years to come. Invest in popcorn and deckchairs.


Isn't it also the case that this is the first time the EU is having much to do with health policy? Normally that's member states responsibility.

Judging by how well it's all going, I suspect it'll remain member states responsibility.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> At the end of the day no-one wants to be labelled as the 'Bad Guy' here. There will be a public pissing contest between AZ  & the EU with the UK Govt sticking its oar in to muddy the water. However over the next couple of days a compromise that no-one likes but they can all accept will get worked out.



 Normally if you don't want to be labelled the' bad guy here'  you would think you might avoid threatening legal action, or vaccine export restrictions or come out with statements  like AZ  failing to live up to their “contractual, societal and moral obligations” or  "We reject the logic of first come, first served. That may work at the neighbourhood butchers but not in contracts and not in our advance purchase agreements.” 

There may be a compromise but probably just some face saving words. The EU for all its bluster hasn't got much wriggle room,   aside from the fact that some of the money allocated to be paid up front hasnt yet gone to AZ , as litigation by the EU would take years and do nothing to resolve the delivery issue.

As for Johnson yes he might stick his oar in but at the moment his only words on the matter have been  'The matter in question is for our friends in the EU and AstraZeneca. '


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

magneze said:


> Isn't it also the case that this is the first time the EU is having much to do with health policy? Normally that's member states responsibility.
> 
> Judging by how well it's all going, I suspect it'll remain member states responsibility.




Hungary approving Russia's Sputnik vaccine must have gone down well in Brussels too.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because this isn't about getting their hands on the vaccine and more demonstrating that the EU as a block is a better proposition than countries acting unilaterally. We'll be seeing this crap happening for years to come. Invest in popcorn and deckchairs.


I think it's possibly both, TBH.

If they can get their hands on some more vaccine that relieves them from some of the political pressures resulting from having cocked it up originally, and if that also re-enforces the idea that work inhas a block is better and gets some revenge against Johnson and the Brits, that's all good too.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Good distraction from the over 100000 dead mind



Two things can be true at the same time - the UK mitigation response to C19 has been woeful, while it's rollout of the vaccine has been excellent. 

The EU cornered the market in C19 testing kits early on - which enabled test and trace, while the UK simply couldn't be get its hands on them for love nor money because it waited too long, which fucked test and trace. However the EU procurement and rollout of vaccine has looked like a man with no hands trying to fuck a dog with wet spaghetti.


----------



## xenon (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It's not a throw-money type problem. afaict, they had a batch at their plant in Belgium which went awry and yielded only a small amount of vaccine, meaning there are just fewer doses available than they projected.



These issues were faced here too but as production started earlier, they've been ironed out. They'll be ironed out in Belgium
too in time. 

Meanwhile demanding supplies that another entity has bought, of a vaccine that you still haven't approved, are diverted to you... Is a bit special.

It's not like the UK are hoarding (the other one.)

From an epidemiological viewpoint of course, the sooner the whole world is vaccinated, the better. But the EU aren't on the moral high ground with this stance.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Because this isn't about getting their hands on the vaccine and more demonstrating that the EU as a block is a better proposition than countries acting unilaterally. We'll be seeing this crap happening for years to come. Invest in popcorn and deckchairs.


i have. but there's also some argument over when i should get my popcorn and deckchair as discussion boards in france, germany and hungary are demanding theirs first. very unhappy.


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

xenon said:


> Yep. As far as I can tell so far, the UK signed contracts months before the EU, took the risk, now the EU are saying give us some of that stuff you've paid for or else.
> 
> If it needs stating, I'm no fan of our govt or Brexit but the EU are clearly in the wrong here. Why don't they throw some money at it and sort out AZ's supply chain problem over there.



i don’t think it’s as simple as that sounds.EU did bung in 336 million euros to AZ last summer.








						EU pays 336 million euros to secure AstraZeneca's potential COVID-19 vaccine
					

The European Commission has made a 336 million euro ($396 million) downpayment to British drug maker AstraZeneca <AZN.L> to secure at least 300 million doses of its potential COVID-19 vaccine, a spokesman said on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i have. but there's also some argument over when i should get my popcorn and deckchair as discussion boards in france, germany and hungary are demanding theirs first. very unhappy.



They can fuck off.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don’t think it’s as simple as that sounds.EU did bung in 336 million euros to AZ last summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


did you read your article?

'already agreed' surely means 'there's a queue'


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> did you read your article?
> View attachment 251748


Yes I read it. Doesn’t say , AZ has already agreed that America and the uk would get all their vaccines before the eu gets any, does it.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

xenon said:


> Meanwhile demanding supplies that another entity has bought, of a vaccine that you still haven't approved, are diverted to you... Is a bit special.



Not necessarily. The UK and Belgian supplies are identical, so the EU case we "we bought X million doses of vaccine, we don't see it matters where they come from".

The real scandal is that drug manufacturers appear to be in complete control, even given the circumstances, and so it is all about Aztrazeneca's interests and a regular contract dispute, without any consideration for where the vaccine is needed (even, though, admittedly, that would still be likely to favour the UK).


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 28, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Two things can be true at the same time - the UK mitigation response to C19 has been woeful, while it's rollout of the vaccine has been excellent.
> 
> The EU cornered the market in C19 testing kits early on - which enabled test and trace, while the UK simply couldn't be get its hands on them for love nor money because it waited too long, which fucked test and trace. However the EU procurement and rollout of vaccine has looked like a man with no hands trying to fuck a dog with wet spaghetti.



think giving 12 billion to Tory MP mates had a bit to do with fucking up track and trace


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes I read it. Doesn’t say , AZ has already agreed that America and the uk would get all their vaccines before the eu gets any, does it.


i didn't say it did.

you may care to read this Why has AstraZeneca reduced promised vaccine supply to EU and is UK affected? which explains that az have committed to providing the uk with vaccine from their uk plant.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> did you read your article?
> View attachment 251748
> 'already agreed' surely means 'there's a queue'


Surely all the vaccine should by rights be diverted to the US, then. Only seems fair.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Surely all the vaccine should by rights be diverted to the US, then. Only seems fair.


yeh. well the problem is the company have committed to supply the uk from the company's uk plant (see link in my last post). so there's a queue with the uk apparently ahead of the eu for supplies from the uk centre of manufacture.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh. well the problem is the company have committed to supply the uk from the company's uk plant (see link in my last post).


I don't actually see that written anywhere in the article you linked to. It just says that AZ has committed to supply the UK 100 million doses or whatever.

In any event, I don't think I'd be saying "well that's fair enough then", were I Italian.

(ETA: cos, obviously, if I were Italian it would be "thassa fair enough".)


----------



## xenon (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> i don’t think it’s as simple as that sounds.EU did bung in 336 million euros to AZ last summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But on a best effort delivery according to AZ. 
And that was after the UK had already signed a contract.

Party A signs a contract to preorder for N units of Superstuff in May.

Party B signs a contract for N units in August.

A approves Superstuff for use and starts distributing it in December.

Problems with Superstuff supply mean only N% is viable of the current production run by  January. 

B demands some of the viable batch of Superstuff A has already contracted for and are using when B hasn't even  approved it for use in their domain yet.

A bit rich no?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think it's possibly both, TBH.
> 
> If they can get their hands on some more vaccine that relieves them from some of the political pressures resulting from having cocked it up originally, and if that also re-enforces the idea that work inhas a block is better and gets some revenge against Johnson and the Brits, that's all good too.


Full list of contracts agreed :
AstraZeneca (400 million doses) 
Sanofi-GSK (300 million doses), 
Johnson and Johnson (400 million doses ) 
BioNTech-Pfizer 600 million 
CureVac (405 million doses) 
Moderna (160 million doses). 
plus exploratory talks with  Novavax 200 million doses  and  Valneva 60 million doses. 



> The Commission has secured a portfolio of more than 2.3 billion doses .





> The Commission has given the conditional marketing authorisation for the vaccines developed by BioNTech and Pfizer on 21 December, and Moderna on 6 January following EMA positive assessment of their safety, quality and efficacy.






> The EMA received an application for a marketing authorisation by AstraZeneca and Oxford University on 12 January. An opinion by EMA could be given by 29 January. No other vaccine producer has formally applied for a marketing authorisation to EMA. In order to accelerate the process, EMA has started a rolling review on the vaccine produced by Johnson and Johnson.



Price list (alleged) as leaked by Belgium MEP :


Oxford/AstraZeneca: €1.78 (£1.61).
Johnson & Johnson: $8.50 (£6.30).
Sanofi/GSK: €7.56.  (£6.69)
Pfizer/BioNTech: €12.  (£10.63)
CureVac: €10.  (£8.85)
Moderna: $18.  (£13.17)


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't actually see that written anywhere in the article you linked to. It just says that AZ has committed to supply the UK 100 million doses or whatever.


it helps if you read and don't just look at the words

the belgian site being the site supplying the eu


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Not necessarily. The UK and Belgian supplies are identical, so the EU case we "we bought X million doses of vaccine, we don't see it matters where they come from".
> 
> The real scandal is that drug manufacturers appear to be in complete control, even given the circumstances, and so it is all about Aztrazeneca's interests and a regular contract dispute, without any consideration for where the vaccine is needed (even, though, admittedly, that would still be likely to favour the UK).



What could replace the private interests of European drug manufacturers that would be within the EUs fair competition rules ?


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

If this situation were to carry on for ages long enough for the uK to be happily vaccinating non urgent people like me whilst 80 year olds are dropping from Covid all over the EU the fallout for international relations would be seriously bad wouldn’t it.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 28, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> Good distraction from the over 100000 dead mind


Indeed. 100,000 dead. Response: 'we did all we could, honest, guv... now let's ramp up some vaccine nationalism to keep the plebs' mind off the carnage we caused.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Indeed. 100,000 dead. Response: 'we did all we could, honest, guv... now let's ramp up some vaccine nationalism to keep the plebs' mind off the carnage we caused.'


after johnson's deriding such a thing when there was the russian hacking going on last year


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 28, 2021)

Meanwhile Johnson engages in mass murder!


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it helps if you read and don't just look at the words
> View attachment 251749
> the belgian site being the site supplying the eu


Come on, this is Key Stage 2 English comprehension. It doesn't say there's any agreement that UK-manufactured doses can only go to the UK, or that Belgian doses can only go to the EU. That's also not what Aztrazeneca are saying. They are basically saying it's a case of first come, first served. Which happens to be the most convenient, least expensive thing for them.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> If this situation were to carry on for ages long enough for the uK to be happily vaccinating non urgent people like me whilst 80 year olds are dropping from Covid all over the EU the fallout for international relations would be seriously bad wouldn’t it.


Its estimated that the UK might be happily vaccinating non priority groups at the end of this year, which gives the EU plenty of time to roll out its 2.3 billion vaccine contract. The current delays to vaccinating the elderly and health staff within the EU are to do with delays in delivery and production issue by  Pfizer .


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> If this situation were to carry on for ages long enough for the uK to be happily vaccinating non urgent people like me whilst 80 year olds are dropping from Covid all over the EU the fallout for international relations would be seriously bad wouldn’t it.



It would, but it's not a zero sum game - there's a fall out for IR if the EU starts trying to through its weight around because it has manifestly fucked its own procured programme. There would also be a political fall out if the UK decided to stop vaccinations at age 60 or whatever in order to help out the EU - and it wouldn't be 'yay forrin's, let's rejoin the EU...'.

Personally, I think that if we were vaccinating our pet rabbits and dartboards while huge numbers were dying in Europe then there would be a compelling moral case for diverting supplies of vaccine, but (for me) that point isn't reached until we've got down to the over 40's and anyone with a co-morbidity.

It's also worth remembering that the reason the EU member states decided to use the EU structures to buy the vaccine is that they wanted to use the EU's market share and political clout to strong arm their way to the front of the queue and get the best price. 

They are not victims, merely ineffective bullies.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Come on, this is Key Stage 2 English comprehension. It doesn't say there's any agreement that UK-manufactured doses can only go to the UK, or that Belgian doses can only go to the EU. That's also not what Aztrazeneca are saying. They are basically saying it's a case of first come, first served. Which happens to be the most convenient, least expensive thing for them.


I didn't say UK made stuff could only go to the UK. I said that the UK were before the EU in the queue, which you have decided to now agree with. The company are committed to supplying the UK 2m doses a week, which are coming from their UK plant and which is it seems the plant's capacity. I don't know why you seem so keen to find a difference between what I'm saying and what the article's saying.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I didn't say UK made stuff could only go to the UK. I said that the UK were before the EU in the queue





Pickman's model said:


> yeh. well the problem is the company have committed to supply the uk from the company's uk plant (see link in my last post).


----------



## Badgers (Jan 28, 2021)

__





						Samantha Cameron business hit by post-Brexit 'teething issues' | Samantha Cameron | The Guardian
					

Wife of former PM says her firm is being hampered by trading difficulties with EU countries




					amp.theguardian.com
				






One positive I suppose. Although unlike most businesses she does not need the cash and the workers will suffer not her.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem Yeh you've got me bang to rights, there should be a comma after uk

It's this hyperattention to detail which should serve you well at the pedant of the year competition


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

Unfortunately , and I can see why , its all first come first served with the richest countries and the EU buying up huge swathes of the  vaccines.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Raheem Yeh you've got me bang to rights, there should be a comma after uk
> 
> It's this hyperattention to detail which should serve you well at the pedant of the year competition


Good idea for a thread Urban Pedant of the Year


----------



## gosub (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> In an ideal world each according to need
> In this case some international solidarity in the spirit of saving lives
> Bollocks to Covid nationalism
> Johnson is going to Scotland today to Save The Union - his message (supposedly)? I can get you vaccines ahead of others in the EU. Cunt



With regards Astra Zenica vaccine, think what the UK has managed to get done is pretty fucking remarkable actually.  Sand in the vaseline I think, stems from India getting slightly cold feet on the amount of its production being for export


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hope she's giving her husband a proper ear bashing over it


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both sides of both campaigns lied.


Let's  be charitable and call them forecasts. Whose forecast is looking more accurate?

Do we have the easiest trade deal ever and £350m/wk extra for the NHS?

Is it true that the pound is worth less and jobs are being lost because of paperwork?

Hmm


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 28, 2021)

tbh the actual brexit we have is worse in many regards than the prospect that was being laid out by many pro-remain campaigners. Don't think many people on either side imagined any government could make this much of a mess of it.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

Wolveryeti said:


> Let's  be charitable and call them forecasts. Whose forecast is looking more accurate?
> 
> Do we have the easiest trade deal ever and £350m/wk extra for the NHS?
> 
> ...


What do you think of the current events?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh the actual brexit we have is worse in many regards than the prospect that was being laid out by many pro-remain campaigners. Don't think many people on either side imagined any government could make this much of a mess of it.


I had no faith in the Tories or the EU in delivering a deal that didn't involve a biting nose to spite face situation on both sides tbh.


----------



## Winot (Jan 28, 2021)

The EU is clearly behaving badly here. I’m not clear however whether the position would be any different had the UK not left the EU. Does anyone know?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 28, 2021)

Winot said:


> The EU is clearly behaving badly here. I’m not clear however whether the position would be any different had the UK not left the EU. Does anyone know?


I suppose it depends primarily on whether the UK would have entered into the EU scheme to procure vaccines, rather than following its own path. Given recent-ish (pre-2016) decisions on other international projects like defence, I suspect probably not.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Winot said:


> The EU is clearly behaving badly here. I’m not clear however whether the position would be any different had the UK not left the EU. Does anyone know?



The main difference would be that the EU wouldn't be able to threaten to block exports to the UK in retaliation. Not that they really have any basis on which to do so now.


----------



## Winot (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The main difference would be that the EU wouldn't be able to threaten to block exports to the UK in retaliation. Not that they really have any basis on which to do so now.



Block exports from the EU, which is unable to produce the vaccine, to the UK, where the vaccine is being produced?


----------



## magneze (Jan 28, 2021)

From the vaccine thread:


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What do you think of the current events?


There's a complete absence of any acknowledgement by some remain posters on these boards ( not all )  of any jobs losses or attacks on conditions unless they can somehow be considered to be related to Brexit . Very rarely if at anytime have I seen them post about strikes , unions, how to try and build resistance to austerity in communities or workplaces. Its almost as if the catalogue of company closures, redundancies , disputes over outsourcing, fire and rehire don't really matter cos being in the EU is apparently the most important and all consuming issue . I might have diffrences about the referendum with those remainer who have posted on such topic and threads but I know that they will oppose all job losses and attacks. I've no time for one trick  ponies though.


----------



## gosub (Jan 28, 2021)

magneze said:


> Isn't it also the case that this is the first time the EU is having much to do with health policy? Normally that's member states responsibility.
> 
> Judging by how well it's all going, I suspect it'll remain member states responsibility.


What apart from that time Commissioner David Byrne banned smoking in the workplace.


----------



## gosub (Jan 28, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I suppose it depends primarily on whether the UK would have entered into the EU scheme to procure vaccines, rather than following its own path. Given recent-ish (pre-2016) decisions on other international projects like defence, I suspect probably not.



Except. A year ago UK had capacity to make 2litres of this stuff.  (I'll have a nose around for the world service program I heard that on in the summer).  The UK was always going to be in the running for researching a vaccine, but we'd had most of pharmaceutical mass production stripped out.

Defence is a different complicated story, but glad to see back of a President wrongly saw no value in NATO standards


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

Quite interesting, on the doomedness of ‘vaccine nationalism’.








						Sharing Covid vaccines is in UK's best interests, say scientists
					

Delivering doses to other countries will reduce chance of virus coming back in new forms, say experts




					www.theguardian.com
				



Don’t think it’s that much of a brexit thing in particular, will be playing out all over in different ways.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Quite interesting, on the doomedness of ‘vaccine nationalism’.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you're very optimistic if you think vn is doomed


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you're very optimistic if you think vn is doomed


Can things not be stupid & doomed and also go on for years? Personal experience suggests they can no problem.


----------



## 2hats (Jan 28, 2021)

magneze said:


> From the vaccine thread:



Additionally, ROK feel there is insufficient data from AZD1222 trials on over 65s for it to be used in those cohorts.








						South Korea reviews AstraZeneca vaccine for elderly under rollout plan
					

South Korea will review the use of AstraZeneca's COVID-19 vaccine for the elderly because of limited efficacy data, the government said on Thursday, as it unveiled a plan to inoculate 10 million high-risk people by July.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

This








						Sharing Covid vaccines is in UK's best interests, say scientists
					

Delivering doses to other countries will reduce chance of virus coming back in new forms, say experts




					www.theguardian.com
				



Won't happen


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think it will for political expediency / ‘soft power’, like India is doing. But not yet obvs.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

ska invita said:


> This
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It might well happen but later.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

Ha yeah I meant now!


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2021)

gosub said:


> Except. A year ago UK had capacity to make 2litres of this stuff.  (I'll have a nose around for the world service program I heard that on in the summer).  The UK was always going to be in the running for researching a vaccine, but we'd had most of pharmaceutical mass production stripped out.



Not sure where that 2L capacity came from. There are a number of big vaccine sites in the UK that have been running for years. Including the one currently being used to make large quantities of AZ product.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think it will for political expediency / ‘soft power’, like India is doing. But not yet obvs.


I don't think the govt gives much consideration to soft power as witness what they're doing with the aid budget


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

The review into  employment rights and the WTD isn't happening.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The review into  employment rights and the WTD isn't happening.


...officially.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> Quite interesting, on the doomedness of ‘vaccine nationalism’.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interestingly, that article says


> Sharing UK Covid vaccines with countries in Europe *and beyond* is in the UK’s best interests, scientists have said



This current dispute has absolutely nothing to do with rich nations sharing vaccine or vaccine making capacity with poorer nations, which would be a great example of putting internationalism above "vaccine nationalism" in a way which might well be of some benefit to the rich donor nations as well as the poorer recipient nations.

I think it would be great if both Britain and the EU made some active commitment to export vaccines beyond Europe to countries and regions struggling to produce their own, perhaps even including those where they have effectively outsourced dealing with people wanting to migrate to Britain and/or the EU, but I don't expect that to happen any time soon.


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

That is happening, albeit not anywhere near the scale it needs to. Program called Covax.


----------



## andysays (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> That is happening, albeit not anywhere near the scale it needs to. Program called Covax.


Happy to be corrected.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 28, 2021)

bimble said:


> That is happening, albeit not anywhere near the scale it needs to. Program called Covax.



Covax will vaccinate 20% of the population in Bosnia-Herzegovina, eventually (my wife is Bosnian).

Much more needs to be done for countries beyond the EU / UK as we won't ever truly be reasonably safe from this bloody thing until the vast majority of the world's population have been vaccinated.


----------



## bimble (Jan 28, 2021)

It’s going to be India I think producing & supplying the lions share of the eventual global rollout. I imagine it will take several years after we over here are all inoculated.








						COVAX to deliver two billion COVID-19 vaccine doses by end of 2021
					

COVAX has announced the aligning of an advanced purchase agreement for up to 40 million doses of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine, meaning it is now on track to deliver 2 billion doses by the end of the year.




					www.healtheuropa.eu
				



Very non brexit stuff though all this.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The review into  employment rights and the WTD isn't happening.


its always happening


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Interestingly, that article says
> 
> 
> This current dispute has absolutely nothing to do with rich nations sharing vaccine or vaccine making capacity with poorer nations, which would be a great example of putting internationalism above "vaccine nationalism" in a way which might well be of some benefit to the rich donor nations as well as the poorer recipient nations.
> ...


As the former colonial power of much of the world surely the UK has a greater moral responsibility to assist with vaccinations in those former possessions


----------



## Supine (Jan 28, 2021)

AZ is also being produced at a few other sites including india and australia for regional supply chains.


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## not-bono-ever (Jan 28, 2021)

As an aside, I have been stiffed by a Spanish company for a decent slab of money owed late late in 2020. They have told me to fuck off as they cannot be taken to court using the EU member give me my fucking money infrastructure as we fell out of it at the end of the year. They’ve done it to a handful of others around the same time. It’s the little things that irk you about this fuck up and the compliant deliverance of a cabal of cunts into power .


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> As the former colonial power of much of the world surely the UK has a greater moral responsibility to assist with vaccinations in those former possessions



Nah, the septics can fuck off.


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## two sheds (Jan 28, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> As an aside, I have been stiffed by a Spanish company for a decent slab of money owed late late in 2020. They have told me to fuck off as they cannot be taken to court using the EU member give me my fucking money infrastructure as we fell out of it at the end of the year. They’ve done it to a handful of others around the same time. It’s the little things that irk you about this fuck up and the compliant deliverance of a cabal of cunts into power .


They don't have any operations in the UK?


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## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2021)

The AZ site in Belgium was raided by officials from Belgium's  medicines regulator at the request of European Commission.  





> An EU official said: "We discussed this matter with our Belgian colleagues, We want to see whether what we're being told is correct or not. So I would like to thank the Belgian authorities for undertaking these efforts".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 28, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> As an aside, I have been stiffed by a Spanish company for a decent slab of money owed late late in 2020. They have told me to fuck off as they cannot be taken to court using the EU member give me my fucking money infrastructure as we fell out of it at the end of the year. They’ve done it to a handful of others around the same time. It’s the little things that irk you about this fuck up and the compliant deliverance of a cabal of cunts into power .




I know some chaps in the Fuengirola area who will be happy to assist, for a cut.


----------



## moochedit (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The main difference would be that the EU wouldn't be able to threaten to block exports to the UK in retaliation. Not that they really have any basis on which to do so now.





Winot said:


> Block exports from the EU, which is unable to produce the vaccine, to the UK, where the vaccine is being produced?



As i understand it, the AZ vaccine is being made at factories in the UK so EU can't block that one. The Pziser (not sure about spelling but can't be arsed to check) vaccine is made in Belgium so EU could stop uk getting that one.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 28, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> As an aside, I have been stiffed by a Spanish company for a decent slab of money owed late late in 2020. They have told me to fuck off as they cannot be taken to court using the EU member give me my fucking money infrastructure as we fell out of it at the end of the year. They’ve done it to a handful of others around the same time. It’s the little things that irk you about this fuck up and the compliant deliverance of a cabal of cunts into power .


Get a Spanish debt collector onto it. They advertise. No collect no fee etc.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

moochedit said:


> As i understand it, the AZ vaccine is being made at factories in the UK so EU can't block that one. The Pziser (not sure about spelling but can't be arsed to check) vaccine is made in Belgium so EU could stop uk getting that one.


 
Pfizer is a US company though, so blocking exports of their vaccine to the UK would drag the septics into it. It won't happen. This is a dispute between the EU and a private company, they have no grounds to retaliate against the British public.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Pfizer is a US company though, so blocking exports of their vaccine to the UK would drag the septics into it. It won't happen. This is a dispute between the EU and a private company, they have no grounds to retaliate against the British public.


The b.p. just collateral damage


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The b.p. just collateral damage



Not really collateral damage if it's exactly who they're aiming at.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Pfizer is a US company though, so blocking exports of their vaccine to the UK would drag the septics into it. It won't happen. This is a dispute between the EU and a private company, they have no grounds to retaliate against the British public.


Think they wouldn't see it as retaliating, but taking steps to secure supplies of vaccine for EU citizens. Still no way it will happen.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> They don't have any operations in the UK?



 Nopes. Once upon a time you could still open a claim with 25 euro and send them an official demand via the EU portal and it usually kicked them into action. Now I have to spend possibly more on a brief to set up a cross border action - more than the money owed - they know this and are are giving 2 fingers to the UK. Obviously they are twats in the first place but they know that the sums are not cost effective to chase. Not just me either


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Get a Spanish debt collector onto it. They advertise. No collect no fee etc.


That is an option but it’s a route I try to keep out of. You  got any heavies numbers in Barcelona?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 28, 2021)

I should employ a cobrador for the lolz. Check them out if you are not familiar. A very Spanish take on debts


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> I should employ a cobrador for the lolz. Check them out if you are not familiar. A very Spanish take on debts



Are they those lads who just follow your creditors around all day?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Jan 28, 2021)

thats the puppies- all dressed in black with frock tail coats and top hats IIRC

eta


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Winot said:


> Block exports from the EU, which is unable to produce the vaccine, to the UK, where the vaccine is being produced?



The Pfizer vaccine for UK use is made in Belgium.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The Pfizer vaccine for UK use is made in Belgium.



I wonder if, given the aggro that is the logistics of the Pfizer vacc, the NHS would be that devastated if it got chinned off..

It's a big slice - 40 million doses, but if AZ can make up the shortfall (and AZ are contracted for 100m doses, and the total vaccine order for the UK is 350 million+), for a pop of 67m then - timings allowing - it may not be a total catastrophe....


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 28, 2021)

A lot of people have had the Pfizer as their first dose. Is there any information about finishing off the Pfizer with a different one? It doesn't sound like a great idea.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> A lot of people have had the Pfizer as their first dose. Is there any information about finishing off the Pfizer with a different one? It doesn't sound like a great idea.


I think you're not allowed to do it unless the particular combination has been through trials. Some such trials are currently underway, I believe.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I think you're not allowed to do it unless the particular combination has been through trials. Some such trials are currently underway, I believe.



Well, I suppose that's a good idea under the circumstances. Though that particular trial may have cause to be err _expanded considerably_ in a few weeks...
Fucking hell.


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Pfizer is a US company though, so blocking exports of their vaccine to the UK would drag the septics into it. It won't happen. This is a dispute between the EU and a private company, they have no grounds to retaliate against the British public.



Sorry but I find it really offensive to make out that this is an attempt to "retaliate against the British public" which sounds like straight out of the Daily Mail or even worse. Like Raheem said, they are trying to secure ways to supply vaccines to people in Europe which is perfectly understandable surely? Maybe try to see it from the other side for one minute - I live in England, I am volunteering at the local vaccination centre, I am ridiculously happy for every single person here who gets his or her jab. But my mother who is in her mid-80s and extremely vulnerable lives in Germany and her appointment for her first Pfizer jab is at the end of March. She mostly blames the over-cautious German health administration who took too long to authorise the vaccine. But she is also a bit angry (and I think understandably so) that my British MiL who is 70 and in good health has already had her first jab while she will have to wait for another two months. For a vaccine that was developed in Germany by German scientist. And that has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever to do with retaliation, but is much more about fairness.


----------



## gosub (Jan 28, 2021)

andysays said:


> Interestingly, that article says
> 
> 
> This current dispute has absolutely nothing to do with rich nations sharing vaccine or vaccine making capacity with poorer nations, which would be a great example of putting internationalism above "vaccine nationalism" in a way which might well be of some benefit to the rich donor nations as well as the poorer recipient nations.
> ...



300million doses for COVAX, a billion doses coming out of(and staying in) India...Its not "Vaccine nationism", the EU isn't a nation, if it was they'd have an ambassador


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Sorry but I find it really offensive to make out that this is an attempt to "retaliate against the British public" which sounds like straight out of the Daily Mail or even worse. Like Raheem said, they are trying to secure ways to supply vaccines to people in Europe which is perfectly understandable surely? Maybe try to see it from the other side for one minute - I live in England, I am volunteering at the local vaccination centre, I am ridiculously happy for every single person here who gets his or her jab. But my mother who is in her mid-80s and extremely vulnerable lives in Germany and her appointment for her first Pfizer jab is at the end of March. She mostly blames the over-cautious German health administration who took too long to authorise the vaccine. But she is also a bit angry (and I think understandably so) that my British MiL who is 70 and in good health has already had her first jab while she will have to wait for another two months. For a vaccine that was developed in Germany by German scientist. And that has absolutely nothing to do whatsoever to do with retaliation, but is much more about fairness.



The EU has beef with AstraZeneca, and has made threats to stop Pfizer exporting vaccines to the UK as a direct result of that. I don't want to see anyone who needs a vaccine go without, but that is exactly what these threats amount to. It wouldn't even be a question of redirecting vaccines from one place to another, as the EMA has not approved the Pfizer vaccine. There doesn't even seem to be a token pretence that exports of the Pfizer vaccine to the UK have any bearing on the issue with the supply of AstraZeneca vaccines to the EU, and yet the threat was made just the same.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Also if people have had the first Pfizer jab and then can't get a second thanks to some tit-for-tat bullshit, they may finish up with no lasting protection. In that case blocking exports would be worse than just denying people medical care, it would effectively undo medical care that had already been provided. That is not an acceptable 'option' to put on the table. For any reason.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Also if people have had the first Pfizer jab and then can't get a second thanks to some tit-for-tat bullshit, they may finish up with no lasting protection. In that case blocking exports would be worse than just denying people medical care, it would effectively undo medical care that had already been provided. That is not an acceptable 'option' to put on the table. For any reason.


With me going in for my first Pfizer jab I'd agree with this


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 28, 2021)

No it'll be fine, just .. be more positive! You know, _one smore unto the fridge_ and all that!
Each time there's a chance to do the right thing .. the wrong thing happens. Everybody blames somebody else.
People die .. so many people die. Go off-licence with vaccine dosing to make it look as if _we really are doing something_.
Send lackeys onto the radio and TV to start the campaign of blaming the public for _not having enough common sense_.
It's all disgusting.


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The EU has beef with AstraZeneca, and has made threats to stop Pfizer exporting vaccines to the UK as a direct result of that. I don't want to see anyone who needs a vaccine go without, but that is exactly what these threats amount to. It wouldn't even be a question of redirecting vaccines from one place to another, as the EMA has not approved the Pfizer vaccine. There doesn't even seem to be a token pretence that exports of the Pfizer vaccine to the UK have any bearing on the issue with the supply of AstraZeneca vaccines to the EU, and yet the threat was made just the same.



Yes, the EMA has approved the Pfizer vaccine. It is the AZ that they haven't approved. And the tit-for-tat bullshit seems to have been started by the Tories who are not letting any Astra Zenica vaccines made in Britain to be exported to the EU, but are still expecting their made-in-Belgium Pfizer vaccines to be delivered to the UK. If you really can't see how unfair this is, I give up.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Yes, the EMA has approved the Pfizer vaccine. It is the AZ that they haven't approved. And the tit-for-tat bullshit seems to have been started by the Tories who are not letting any Astra Zenica vaccines made in Britain to be exported to the EU, but are still expecting their made-in-Belgium Pfizer vaccines to be delivered to the UK. If you really can't see how unfair this is, I give up.



It's certainly helped the news cycle shift from "COVID deaths pass 100,000 after massive Tory failures cause world-leading death rate" to "EU tyrants jealous of Britain's world-leading vaccination progress demand Britain surrender its vaccines."


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Yes, the EMA has approved the Pfizer vaccine. It is the AZ that they haven't approved. And the tit-for-tat bullshit seems to have been started by the Tories who are not letting any Astra Zenica vaccines made in Britain to be exported to the EU, but are still expecting their made-in-Belgium Pfizer vaccines to be delivered to the UK. If you really can't see how unfair this is, I give up.



AstraZeneca decide where they send their vaccines. The UK hasn't blocked any exports.


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> AstraZeneca decide where they send their vaccines. The UK hasn't blocked any exports.


Actually, I read that the UK HAS blocked exports of all AZ vaccines to the EU. That's what this whole issue is about!


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Actually, I read that the UK HAS blocked exports of all AZ vaccines to the EU. That's what this whole issue is about!


Can you post a link? That's not my understanding at all.


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 28, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> AstraZeneca decide where they send their vaccines. The UK hasn't blocked any exports.


And obviously they don't just "decide where they send their vaccine", they are bound by contracts. And that's the beef that other countries in Europe have  - they are not standing by the contracts that have been signed?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> And obviously they don't just "decide where they send their vaccine", they are bound by contracts. And that's the beef that other countries in Europe have  - they are not standing by the contracts that have been signed?


That's still not the UK government blocking exports though, is it? As far as I'm currently aware the only threat to block vaccine exports has come from the EU suggesting they could prevent exports to the UK.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> And obviously they don't just "decide where they send their vaccine", they are bound by contracts. And that's the beef that other countries in Europe have  - they are not standing by the contracts that have been signed?



Unless you've got the contracts in front of you, that's guesswork.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Actually, I read that the UK HAS blocked exports of all AZ vaccines to the EU. That's what this whole issue is about!



And where'd you read that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> As far as I'm currently aware the only threat to block vaccine exports has come from the EU suggesting they could prevent exports to the UK.



And have gone as far as cobbling together a legal mechanism to do so, albeit a tenuous one which seems to depend on a national regulator finding a product unfit for export.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 28, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> And obviously they don't just "decide where they send their vaccine", they are bound by contracts. And that's the beef that other countries in Europe have  - they are not standing by the contracts that have been signed?


Think what has happened is that AZ have had production issues which mean they are not producing the quantity of vaccine they projected/promised. So they are unable to fulfil both their UK and EU contracts. They are choosing (and it almost certainly is a commercial choice) to fulfil the UK contract at the EU's expense because (a) that way they are only in breach of one contract, not two and (b) the unit price the UK is paying will be substantially higher than the EU would pay. We don't know by how much, but it could easily be as high as a nine-figure difference in total.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 28, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think what has happened is that AZ have had production issues which mean they are not producing the quantity of vaccine they projected/promised. So they are unable to fulfil their UK and EU contracts. They are choosing (and it almost certainly is a commercial choice) to fulfil the UK contract because that way (a) they are only in breach of one contract, not two and (b) the unit price the UK is paying will be substantially higher than the EU would pay. We don't know my how much, but it could easily be as high as a nine-figure difference in total.


There also seems to be some opacity around the wording of the EU contract. The CEO of AZ is saying that they are contracted to their "best efforts" to provide the specified number of vaccines within a specified period. Clearly that's subjective but the argument is between the EU and AstraZeneca, not the EU and the UK government (or at least it has been up to now).


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 28, 2021)

the best part of this is we made it harder to export

so somehow thats a win


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 28, 2021)

I'm sure exporting our rubbish is still as easy as ever. And of course, the people running the show who 'export' a lot of their money to avoid its having to pay for hospital beds or a fishing industry.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 28, 2021)

Surely the best solution, post Brexit, is for every economic entity to have its own vaccine production facilities. Then every version of the vaccine can be tailored to the average genetic make-up of its citizens. Furthermore GPS systems can be utilised so that those who leave their own political and economic jurisdictions will be faced with sudden failure of the vaccine. This will be achieved through the intelligent usage of nanorobots, of course, and keep everyone in their proper place. For a few pence more we could arrange for certain geographic extensions, to the Costa del Sol, for example. To future-proof this system we will have to make provisional arrangements for the secession of Scotland and Ireland as well. Makes sense to me.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> ...Its not "Vaccine nationism", the EU isn't a nation, if it was they'd have an ambassador



This is nonsense, I'm afraid.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Actually, I read that the UK HAS blocked exports of all AZ vaccines to the EU. That's what this whole issue is about!



How are we getting on with a source for this?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is nonsense, I'm afraid.


I thing gosub is being ironic.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How are we getting on with a source for this?


They are cooking one up now.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> How are we getting on with a source for this?


I think what's happened is that PP has read_ Daily Mail _and _Express_ headlines like "No! EU can't have our vaccines", and attributed them to the government, which is a mistake.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

The headlines have been mental and thousands of lives are being directly threatened. But hey. At least most of the fans of an engorged sorry enlarged EU have had the good grace to cease with the abuse.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 29, 2021)

Frau Bahn clicked on the fail this morning and was worried WW3 was about to start, told her to try BBC, not a single mention of this on their front page...


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 29, 2021)

Well at least it will make getting vaccinated more appealing, bogroll-style...
Sadly, to frothing Fail fellaters...


----------



## ska invita (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The headlines have been mental and thousands of lives are being directly threatened. But hey. At least most of the fans of an engorged sorry enlarged EU have had the good grace to cease with the abuse.



im really not sure i understand what is going on - correct me if im wrong - my understanding is lives will be saved because the limited supplies of the Pfizer vaccine will end up being given to the most vulnerable sooner, no?
*im really not following this closely


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat are you really this fragile in your victory that even vaccine wars are about how mean to you those nasty RemoAnerS are?


----------



## quiet guy (Jan 29, 2021)

The unexpected consequences of Brexit hit Samantha Cameron


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 29, 2021)

UK
January 28, 2021 12:32 PM
*Exclusive: UK will apply to trans-Pacific trade bloc before publishing economic impact - officials*

*<>

Since leaving the EU, Britain has made clear its desire to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which removes most tariffs between Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. *










						Exclusive: UK will apply to trans-Pacific trade bloc before publishing economic impact - officials
					

Britain will submit a request to join a trans-Pacific trading bloc grouping 11 countries before it has published an assessment of the benefits of membership, British officials told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> TopCat are you really this fragile in your victory that even vaccine wars are about how mean to you those nasty RemoAnerS are?


You dont seem to have read the thread. The reality of dealing with the EU post brexit seems to have quietened down support for a federal europe. 
Or does this debacle over vaccines give you more faith?


----------



## ska invita (Jan 29, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> *Since leaving the EU, Britain has made clear its desire to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP), which removes most tariffs between Australia, Brunei, Canada, Chile, Japan, Malaysia, Mexico, New Zealand, Peru, Singapore and Vietnam. *


Australia, Canada,New Zealand the particularly important ones to the CANZUKers.


----------



## Pingety Pong (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can you post a link? That's not my understanding at all.


I read that a contact was signed that all AZ


SpookyFrank said:


> AstraZeneca decide where they send their vaccines. The UK hasn't blocked any exports.



As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first. Which is why the EU is now threatening to do the same with vaccines produced in Belgium. Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 29, 2021)

gentlegreen said:


> UK
> January 28, 2021 12:32 PM
> *Exclusive: UK will apply to trans-Pacific trade bloc before publishing economic impact - officials*
> 
> ...


I'm no geographical determinist, but when your landmass doesn't even appear on a map of the proposed trade agreement...surely there's a bit of a clue in that?


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I'm no geographical determinist, but when your landmass doesn't even appear on a map of the proposed trade agreement...surely there's a bit of a clue in that?
> 
> View attachment 251895



Maybe they're using Pitcairn Island to argue that Britain is a Pacific nation.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> I read that a contact was signed that all AZ
> 
> 
> As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first. Which is why the EU is now threatening to do the same with vaccines produced in Belgium. Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.


I feel sorry for the children given your rational. There is no evidence this assertion is true.


----------



## Winot (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You dont seem to have read the thread. The reality of dealing with the EU post brexit seems to have quietened down support for a federal europe.
> Or does this debacle over vaccines give you more faith?



Tedious strawman nonsense.

1. Few on here were arguing for a federal Europe.
2. None on here believed the EU were angels of propriety. 

I suggest you go and play on Twitter with some FBPE types if that’s your level of debate.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You dont seem to have read the thread. The reality of dealing with the EU post brexit seems to have quietened down support for a federal europe.
> Or does this debacle over vaccines give you more faith?


Er. I was just looking at this very dramatic post of yours, which I found kind of funny and a bit pathetic.


TopCat said:


> The headlines have been mental and thousands of lives are being directly threatened. But hey. At least most of the fans of an engorged sorry enlarged EU have had the good grace to cease with the abuse.


To answer though, none of this grim vaccine stuff seems surprising really, in the circumstances. And it has not suddenly opened my eyes to the evilness of the EU, or of our own Gov.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first.



Yep, that seems to be what AZ's chief executive has been saying.



> Soriot said Downing Street would have first claim on the doses manufactured in the UK and that the EU would have to wait. “The UK agreement was reached in June, three months before the European one,” he said. “As you could imagine, the UK government said the supply coming out of the UK supply chain would go for the UK first. Basically, that’s how it is.”












						Head of AstraZeneca rejects calls for UK vaccine to be diverted to EU
					

Chief executive of pharmaceutical giant says the firm will honour UK’s earlier contract despite EU anger over shortfall




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

That 👆 weird phrasing is why I think the contracts will be published. ‘The uk government said’ isn’t how contracts work is it?


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

€1.78 





Raheem said:


> Think what has happened is that AZ have had production issues which mean they are not producing the quantity of vaccine they projected/promised. So they are unable to fulfil both their UK and EU contracts. They are choosing (and it almost certainly is a commercial choice) to fulfil the UK contract at the EU's expense because (a) that way they are only in breach of one contract, not two and (b) the unit price the UK is paying will be substantially higher than the EU would pay. We don't know by how much, but it could easily be as high as a nine-figure difference in total.


The BBC estimated the cost of the AZ vaccine to the UK government as £3 , the leaked EU prices from the Belgium MEP put the EU price as €1.78   which is around £1.60


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 29, 2021)

Regarding the export block, as I understand it (based on something I read somewhere yesterday so maybe wrong) the UK put an export block on some medical supplies which were at the time being used for treatment (no idea if these are ones which are still being used or if they've been put aside now), rather than the actual vaccines which at the time were still being tested. The EU I think is pointing to that as an example of the general principle, although if they did block vaccine exports it obviously wouldn't be in response to that.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> I read that a contact was signed that all AZ
> 
> 
> As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first. Which is why the EU is now threatening to do the same with vaccines produced in Belgium. Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.



'The government has put clauses into the AZ contract'?  

You can't seriously make that statement, say that it's been widely reported and expect people to just accept that without citing even one of the sources that are "widely reporting" it. You're arguing something that absolutely nobody else is, as far as I can tell.   

This beef is about AZ committing to making their "best efforts" to supply a number of vaccines to the EU (who have yet to approve said vaccine). AZ have now told the EU that due to production issues in Belgian and Dutch facilities they will be unable to deliver on time and are 2 months behind schedule. AZ say that they signed a contract to deliver to the UK, a full 3 months before they signed one to commit their "best efforts" to supplying the EU. 

This is a contractual dispute between AstraZeneca and the European Union, not a political one between the UK and the EU, as you are trying to spin it.

Read this:  Subscribe to read | Financial Times


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

From what I can tell the EU believe that AZ have been moving supplies from Belgian plant to UK, hence the inspection of the factory. If that's the case then AZ are most likely in breach of their contact.

Yes the public posturing from a few people on EU side isn't helpful but seeking to enforce the terms of a contract, especially when overall the result will be more lives saved isn't unreasonable. Surprised people here are supportive of a company making a commercial decision to prioritise supply for optimum profit over equitable distribution for the sake of anti EU point scoring.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, that seems to be what AZ's chief executive has been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You say yes then post something which refutes that. The head of AZ is saying that the UK government signed a contract to deliver vaccines 3 months before the EU. The AZ vaccine produced in the UK has been going to UK citizens and will continue to do so. The upcoming production shortages are due to AZ facilities in Holland and Belgium under-producing. The EU is saying that vaccine produced in UK facilities should be diverted (by AstraZeneca) away from UK citizens and into the EU program on the one hand, whilst on the other hand threatening to reduce or completely prevent exports of the Pfizer vaccine (and possibly blocking exports of the Dutch and Belgian made AZ vaccine) to the UK from Europe. That's nuts. And this is before the UK has completed its initial program of vaccinating its own most vulnerable.


----------



## gentlegreen (Jan 29, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Maybe they're using Pitcairn Island to argue that Britain is a Pacific nation.


Now you're giving me ideas ...


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> From what I can tell the EU believe that AZ have been moving supplies from Belgian plant to UK, hence the inspection of the factory. If that's the case then AZ are most likely in breach of their contact.
> 
> Yes the public posturing from a few people on EU side isn't helpful but seeking to enforce the terms of a contract, especially when overall the result will be more lives saved isn't unreasonable. Surprised people here are supportive of a company making a commercial decision to prioritise supply for optimum profit over equitable distribution for the sake of anti EU point scoring.


Can you explain why you think more lives will be saved if vaccine is diverted from Britain to the EU?


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You say yes then post something which refutes that. The head of AZ is saying that the UK government signed a contract to deliver vaccines 3 months before the EU. The AZ vaccine produced in the UK has been going to UK citizens and will continue to do so. The production shortages are due to AZ facilities in Holland and Belgium under-producing. The EU is saying that vaccine produced in UK facilities should be diverted (by AstraZeneca) away from UK citizens and into the EU program on the one hand, whilst on the other hand threatening to reduce or completely prevent exports of the Pfizer vaccine to the UK from Europe. That's nuts. And this is before the UK has completed its initial program of vaccinating its own most vulnerable.



People are arguing that this is a contractual dispute between the company and the EU with no British government involvement, which doesn't seem to be the case - Gove said yesterday that the government wouldn't allow AZ to send vaccines to Europe.



> Pressed on whether the government will allow vaccines to go to the EU, he said: "No"











						Covid: UK vaccine supplies 'won't be interrupted' - Gove
					

A row over vaccine shortages has seen the EU demand AstraZeneca supply it with doses from UK plants.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> From what I can tell the EU believe that AZ have been moving supplies from Belgian plant to UK, hence the inspection of the factory. If that's the case then AZ are most likely in breach of their contact.


They have. It was in the newspapers last month.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> People are arguing that this is a contractual dispute between the company and the EU with no British government involvement, which doesn't seem to be the case - Gove said yesterday that the government wouldn't allow AZ to send vaccines to Europe.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That's not the contractual issue. He was asked if he would allow vaccines that the UK has already bought and paid for, and are being manufactured in the UK, to be sent to the EU before the UK has vaccinated its own most vulnerable. Given the EU's stance and their stated intent to block EU produced vaccine being exported here 'if necessary', he quite reasonably said "no".

Read the FT piece that I linked to above.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can you explain why you think more lives will be saved if vaccine is diverted from Britain to the EU?



Because the mortality rate increases with age so if we vaccinate a greater percentage of our population at the expense of other countries overall more people will die because the most vulnerable in other countries will be waiting longer.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can you explain why you think more lives will be saved if vaccine is diverted from Britain to the EU?


The most lives would be saved with equitable distribution across the entire planet. Sadly that isn't going to happen. Equitable distribution across the whole of Europe (inc UK) would also help, given we're all basically in the same mess right now.

From what I can tell, nobody is coming out of this looking good atm.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can you explain why you think more lives will be saved if vaccine is diverted from Britain to the EU?


Any supplies that are diverted from somewhere further ahead with vaccination, to somewhere further behind, would likely save more lives, assuming both places are pursuing a policy of protecting the most vulnerable people first.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Any supplies that are diverted from somewhere further ahead with vaccination, to somewhere further behind, would likely save more lives, assuming both places are pursuing a policy of protecting the most vulnerable people first.


You seem to be assuming no other protective methods being employed


----------



## xenon (Jan 29, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Yep, that seems to be what AZ's chief executive has been saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That isn't the same as all AZ vaccine produced in the UK goes to the UK only is it.

It's the party who signed a contract to buy x amount first, gets x first. Which is boringly normal.

As for the Daily Mail, no one should be reading it.


----------



## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

QUOTE="andysays said:


> This is nonsense, I'm afraid.




Shame than that your dismissal is bollocks.  EU wants full recognition for UK envoy in post-Brexit spat.


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Because the mortality rate increases with age so if we vaccinate a greater percentage of our population at the expense of other countries overall more people will die because the most vulnerable in other countries will be waiting longer.


Germany at least has only approved the AZ vaccine for under 65s, so I'm not sure this argument really works

ETA under, not over


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> It's the party who signed a contract to buy x amount first, gets x first. Which is boringly normal.


... signed, paid for, approved, and by the way, they happen to be manufacturing it as well!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Germany at least has only approved the AZ vaccine for over 65s, so I'm not sure this argument really works


Yours doesn't because Germany has banned it for the over 65s


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yours doesn't because Germany has banned it for the over 65s


I noticed and corrected my mistake, but thanks for pointing it out


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> ... signed, paid for, approved, and by the way, they happen to be manufacturing it as well!


For the record no member of the UK govt is involved in the process of making the vaccine and thank fuck for that


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Germany at least has only approved the AZ vaccine for under 65s, so I'm not sure this argument really works
> 
> ETA under, not over



Other countries are available plus there are millions of  people under 65 with other health conditions who should be getting vaccinated ASAP.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They have. It was in the newspapers last month.



OK.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Winot said:


> Tedious strawman nonsense.
> 
> 1. Few on here were arguing for a federal Europe.
> 2. None on here believed the EU were angels of propriety.
> ...


Thanks for the patronisation. I think most admit that if the vote had been to stay in the EU this would have been taken as consent for the enlarged eu and the last time we would ever been consulted.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Er. I was just looking at this very dramatic post of yours, which I found kind of funny and a bit pathetic.
> 
> To answer though, none of this grim vaccine stuff seems surprising really, in the circumstances. And it has not suddenly opened my eyes to the evilness of the EU, or of our own Gov.


Did Greece open your eyes a bit or did you turn and look elsewhere?


----------



## magneze (Jan 29, 2021)

Since Germany have banned the AZ for over 65s (perhaps the rest of the EU will follow?) is the idea that less vulnerable people (under 65s) in the EU be given priority than over 65s in the UK?

Have they thought about this position?


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did Greece open your eyes a bit or did you turn and look elsewhere?


2016 called and wants it’s tired argument back.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

xenon said:


> That isn't the same as all AZ vaccine produced in the UK goes to the UK only is it.
> 
> It's the party who signed a contract to buy x amount first, gets x first. Which is boringly normal.
> 
> As for the Daily Mail, no one should be reading it.


Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.

Apparently the contract they signed does mention the UK production facilities.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.


here's the thing.

there is a plant in the uk, which is at  capacity supplying the uk

there is a plant in belgium, at which there are production difficulties. this is the main plant supplying the eu

the uk is no longer in the european union. so it's not like the european court of justice can rule on the matter


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> here's the thing.
> 
> there is a plant in the uk, which is at  capacity supplying the uk
> 
> ...


They signed a contract mentioning four sites, two of which are in the UK and giving clear delivery amounts. Why shouldn't they be kept to that?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well no, if AZ signed a contract to supply both it should do that, and not favour one over the other.


This is the point. AZ are arguing that their commitment to supply the EU was not absolute but one to ensure it’s “best efforts” to do so. Now people may not like that but it is a legal position. The U.K. is being supplied by a U.K. supply chain whilst the EU was to be supplied by a Dutch and Belgian supply chain which has faltered.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> here's the thing.
> 
> there is a plant in the uk, which is at  capacity supplying the uk
> 
> ...


This.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They signed a contract mentioning four sites, two of which are in the UK and giving clear delivery amounts. Why shouldn't they be kept to that?


have you seen the unpublished contract?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> have you seen the unpublished contract?


Pingety Pong is sitting on it.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

told you so etc


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Does it confirm the EU gets served first despite signing the contract three months after the UK and not actually handing over the cash yet?


----------



## hitmouse (Jan 29, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> thats the puppies- all dressed in black with frock tail coats and top hats IIRC
> 
> eta
> 
> View attachment 251837


I reckon that in the best spirit of European internationalism and all that, we should merge the Spanish and British approaches to unpaid wages and debt collecting. So if a company doesn't pay out the money that they should, a bloke in a frock coat and top hat holding a briefcase would turn up and silently drive a JCB through their foyer.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Pingety Pong said:


> I read that a contact was signed that all AZ
> 
> 
> As I understand it the government has put a clause into the AZ contract that says all vaccines produced in Britain will go to British people first. Which is why the EU is now threatening to do the same with vaccines produced in Belgium. Sorry, too busy teaching the children of the Great British Public right now to provide sources but that has been widely reported.



I'm also teaching the children of the great british public, so we're both on the same moral high ground there. The contracts are not in the public domain, we don't know what they say. We do know that any contract between AZ and the UK would have been agreed upon by both parties, and that even if there was a provision stating that UK manufactured vaccines were to be used in the UK, that would fall some way short of the UK blocking exports.

Incidentally, I teach science. Today I'm explaining how the 'widely reported' link between MMR vaccines and autism was and is a load of old cobblers. Reporting is not evidence. My year 9's know that. I wouldn't normally badger people like this but you went in on me about being personally offended by my posts and saying I didn't know what fairness meant so it seems reasonable to expect you to have some basis for saying that. I for my part will admit I was wrong about the EU approving the Pfizer vaccine but nothing really turns on that as the issue here is with the AZ supply chain and only the EU's baseless threats to various parties that are not remotely responsible for that supply issue have dragged Pfizer into it.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

well, this bit of the contract between AZ & the EU looks like it definitely isnt a case of -the vaccines made in the UK are not to be used for EU export.


Its the UK's turn to publish their contract now.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> have you seen the unpublished contract?


No, but that's what the european commission president said.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Best reasonable efforts. Breaching the terms of another, pre-existing contract would seem to go beyond best reasonable efforts. But I'm sure some lawyers will do well out of all this one way or another.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> well, this bit of the contract between AZ & the EU looks like it definitely isnt a case of -the vaccines made in the UK are not to be used for EU export.
> View attachment 251903
> 
> Its the UK's turn to publish their contract now.


don't you find it interesting that the eu can declare non-eu countries to be in the eu for eu purposes without the say-so of that country?


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> don't you find it interesting that the eu can declare non-eu countries to be in the eu for eu purposes without the say-so of that country?


it is a contract, so no one party 'declared' anything.
That bit just says, the vaccines we are agreeing to buy from you they might be manufactured anywhere, including in the UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> it is a contract, so no one party 'declared' anything.
> That bit just says, the vaccines we are agreeing to buy from you they might be manufactured anywhere, including in the UK.


which is for the purposes of section 5.4 in the eu

and it clearly doesn't say the vaccine can be manufactured anywhere


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

anyway sleaterkinney i'm seeing no mention of these 'four sites'


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it clearly doesn't say the vaccine can be manufactured anywhere


Read the rest of section 5.4, if you've nothing better to do whilst we wait for the UK to publish theirs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Read the rest of section 5.4, if you've nothing better to do whilst we wait for the UK to publish theirs.


 my bad, i meant shall whereas obvs as you point out az can

but nothing there about two sites in the uk, the only place in the contract which mentions sites is section 5.5


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

the delivery schedule is redacted quite lot  . Twitter says its AZ who has done the redactions.


----------



## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> the delivery schedule is redacted quite lot  . Twitter says its AZ who has done the redactions.
> 
> View attachment 251905


 So wheres  Assange and Wikileaks when you need them eh?


----------



## prunus (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> told you so etc




One of the things I do for a living is read these sorts of things - so on a quick scan this clause leaps out as being germane to the should AZ send vaccines manufactured in the UK to the EU question.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> anyway sleaterkinney i'm seeing no mention of these 'four sites'


It's in schedule A of the contract.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)




----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> well, this bit of the contract between AZ & the EU looks like it definitely isnt a case of -the vaccines made in the UK are not to be used for EU export.
> View attachment 251903
> 
> Its the UK's turn to publish their contract now.



I don't think this says what you're suggesting. It doesn't oblige AZ to supply the EU from the UK supply chain. It _allows_ them to manufacture the vaccine in the UK as well as in the EU.

Here's the rest of the clause:



The intention of the clause is clearly regarding which countries AstraZeneca is allowed to manufacture the vaccines in. Not which countries AstraZeneca must supply the European Union _from._


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

That section 5.4 looks to me like it's mainly aimed at saying AZ shouldn't be manufacturing stuff outside of the EU/UK unless it really has to.

It's not addressing the question of whether vaccine manufactured in the UK should go to one or other place preferentially.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Obviously we are all contract lawyers now, just as yesterday we were all virologists. Given that, my expert opinion is that it looks really messy and unclear, and quite possibly the company will have turned out to have signed two incompatible agreements by mistake.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's in schedule A of the contract.


it appears von der leyen mistaken then


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> That section 5.4 looks to me like it's mainly aimed at saying AZ shouldn't be manufacturing stuff outside of the EU/UK unless it really has to.
> 
> It's not addressing the question of whether vaccine manufactured in the UK should go to one or other place preferentially.


See? Even teuchter gets it!


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Obviously we are all contract lawyers now ...



Well no, but we can all read


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it appears von leyen mistaken then


The names are redacted but it mentions UK sites.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think this says what you're suggesting. It doesn't oblige AZ to supply the EU from the UK supply chain. It _allows_ them to manufacture the vaccine in the UK as well as in the EU.
> 
> Here's the rest of the clause:
> 
> ...


But, that stuff about where they can manufacture is located within a contract between the EU and the vaccine company. So yes it is about where the vaccines the EU is buying will come from.
It’s not about where they AZ can manufacture in general.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> The names are redacted but it mentions UK sites.


yes. and 3 sites not 2. and not 2 making the drug as i read it, 2 making preparatory substances (drug substance manufacture) and 1 making the thing (drug product manufacture).


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

She is wrong about it being crystal clear but 








						EU leaves UK off exempt list for tighter vaccine export controls
					

Health commissioner says bloc needs to ensure pharmaceutical firms live up to their promises




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> But, that stuff about where they can manufacture is located within a contract between the EU and the vaccine company. So yes it is about where the vaccines the EU is buying will come from.
> It’s not about where they AZ can manufacture in general.


That clause says that AZ must manufacture the vaccine in the EU or the UK. It goes on to say that if it's necessary to accelerate supply, they can manufacture it outside the EU and UK, but they have to provide the Union with a written explanation of why they are using non-EU/UK facilities. That's it. It's not an agreement to supply the EU from UK facilities.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> She is wrong about it being crystal clear but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well if she's relying on 5.4 she's just wrong. It says nothing of the sort. There might be something somewhere else in the contract and I'm reading it now, but so much is redacted it's hard to say.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That clause says that AZ must manufacture the vaccine in the EU or the UK. It goes on to say that if it's necessary to accelerate supply, they can manufacture it outside the EU and UK, but they have to provide the Union with a written explanation of why they are using non-EU/UK facilities. That's it. It's not an agreement to supply the EU from UK facilities.


not to mention von der leyen seems to be having difficulty counting


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That clause says that AZ must manufacture the vaccine in the EU or the UK. It goes on to say that if it's necessary to accelerate supply, they can manufacture it outside the EU and UK, but they have to provide the Union with a written explanation of why they are using non-EU/UK facilities. That's it. It's not an agreement to supply the EU from UK facilities.


That doesn’t make any sense.
it’s an agreement to supply the EU from various manufacturing plants including those located in the UK. Why else is the Uk manufacturing plants mentioned in the contract between AZ and EU?

Ursula might be wrong but so are you.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> She is wrong about it being crystal clear but
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her use of the word "supposed" reminded me of an Urban spat about "should".


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 29, 2021)

A discussion on inter-capitalist contract law... excellent! Which side are you on?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> That doesn’t make any sense.
> it’s an agreement to supply the EU from various manufacturing plants including those located in the UK. Why else is the Uk manufacturing plants mentioned in the contract between AZ and EU?


It's an agreement that AZ _can_ use plants located in the UK. It doesn't say anything about whether AZ is obliged to use stuff made in the UK to supply the EU.

5.1 seems more relevant.



AZ has to use its best efforts to manufacture the EU doses "within the EU".

The UK is not in the EU.

Moving supply from the UK to the EU is not "manufacturing within the EU" so it's not something they have to make an effort to do, according to this contract.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 29, 2021)

Can this go on a separate thread?
I want to read what fish people like to eat


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> That doesn’t make any sense.
> it’s an agreement to supply the EU from various manufacturing plants including those located in the UK. Why else is the Uk manufacturing plants mentioned in the contract between AZ and EU?


edited: surprisingly teuchter makes a good point


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's an agreement that AZ _can_ use plants located in the UK. It doesn't say anything about whether AZ is obliged to use stuff made in the UK to supply the EU.
> 
> 5.1 seems more relevant.
> 
> ...


But it says Uk is in the EU ‘for the purposes of clause 5.4?
Why does it say that then? I don’t know obvs.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> it’s an agreement to supply the EU from various manufacturing plants including those located in the UK. Why else is the Uk manufacturing plants mentioned in the contract between AZ and EU?



Because the UK is not in the EU. 



> Ursula might be wrong but so are you.



I don't think so. That clause is pretty straightforward in it's intent.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> She is wrong about it being crystal clear but
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She was an astonishingly poor German Defence Minister before she went off to the EU - in 'Things That Look Familiar' she was fond of making grandeous statements and then making a mess, if she made anything, of the implementation...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Can this go on a separate thread?
> I want to read what fish people like to eat


the kippered herring is my favourite


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> But it says Uk is in the EU ‘for the purposes of clause 5.4?


 And what _is_ the purpose of 5.4?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> But it says Uk is in the EU ‘for the purposes of clause 5.4?


5.1 is not part of 5.4.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> But it says Uk is in the EU ‘for the purposes of clause 5.4?


And 5.4 only,  not clause 5.1


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

God I’m glad I’m not a contract lawyer.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> God I’m glad I’m not a contract lawyer.


We all are


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> A discussion on inter-capitalist contract law... excellent! Which side are you on?


we discuss lots of things to do with capitalists here. if you object to the discussion perhaps you could make your objections rather clearer.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 29, 2021)

I agree with teuchter and Spymaster and when all three of us are actually aligned on something, you can be sure it really must be transparently and unambiguously true.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Isn't the other issue here that the delivery schedule is estimated because of the best effort wording rather than having an agreed delivery schedule


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Are we at war with Eurasia yet?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ursula might be wrong but so are you.


on first name terms now i see


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

There's quite a few references elsewhere like



where it seems to make fairly clear that what this agreement is about, is the production and purchase of stuff within the EU.

By the way somewhere else I noticed it said "Europe" instead of EU which strikes me as sloppy drafting, unless it's intentional for some reason.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

What do we make of 13.1 ( E ) then?


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> on first name terms now i see


Just too hard to spelll.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> There's quite a few references elsewhere like
> 
> View attachment 251914
> 
> ...


sloppy drafting


----------



## two sheds (Jan 29, 2021)

prunus said:


> One of the things I do for a living is read these sorts of things - so on a quick scan this clause leaps out as being germane to the should AZ send vaccines manufactured in the UK to the EU question.
> 
> View attachment 251907




You’re all wrong. It’s    clearly saying that AZ must ███████████ and  that the EU must likewise █████████████ unless  the UK can █████████.before next Wednesday.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> God I’m glad I’m not a contract lawyer.


Compared to a lot I’ve had to read, this part of this contract is actually refreshingly straightforward!


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I agree with teuchter and Spymaster and when all three of us are actually aligned on something, you can be sure it really must be transparently and unambiguously true.


That or it's a very sinister conspiracy.


----------



## Johnny Doe (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What do we make of 13.1 ( E ) then



Not as good as E17


----------



## kabbes (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What do we make of 13.1 ( E ) then?
> 
> View attachment 251916


That seems like a pretty straightforward warranty that the contract is undertaken in good faith?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What do we make of 13.1 ( E ) then?
> 
> View attachment 251916


I don't think that an obligation to supply the UK from UK sites is in conflict with an obligation to supply the EU from EU sites.

Unless the delays at the EU sites are a direct result of, say, diverting resources to the UK sites.


----------



## Serge Forward (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> we discuss lots of things to do with capitalists here. if you object to the discussion perhaps you could make your objections rather clearer.


It's not so much the discussion, it's the taking sides bit.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Compared to a lot I’ve had to read, this part of this contract is actually refreshingly straightforward!


I would say that I find this contract easier to understand than the guidance for the Self Assessment tax forms I had to wade through the other week. Or certain parts of the UK building regulations Approved Documents.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I don't think that an obligation to supply the UK from UK sites is in conflict with an obligation to supply the EU from EU sites.
> 
> Unless the delays at the EU sites are a direct result of, say, diverting resources to the UK sites.



That's what the head of the law society is saying, though based on the wording in a previously published vaccine supply contract.





__





						AstraZeneca may have to renegotiate vaccine contracts, say experts | Coronavirus | The Guardian
					

Company may be in danger of breaching contracts to supply EU and UK due to production problem




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> A discussion on inter-capitalist contract law... excellent! Which side are you on?


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That's what the head of the law society is saying, though based on the wording in a previously published vaccine supply contract.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> David Greene, the president of the Law Society and a senior partner at Edwin Coe, where he litigates contracts, said: “If they [AZ] gave assurances that they made reasonable best efforts to supply the EU but were in fact diverting material from one place to another, that would on the face of it be a potential breach of obligations to use reasonable best efforts.”



I'd agree if they are in fact diverting material from one place to the other. But is there any evidence they are doing that?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> God I’m glad I’m not a contract lawyer.



The uglier the mess, the more you get paid.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I'd agree if they are in fact diverting material from one place to the other. But is there any evidence they are doing that?



I think that's why they went to inspect the Belgian plant so we should know in a couple of days.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That's what the head of the law society is saying, though based on the wording in a previously published vaccine supply contract.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Contract lawyer says 'you're gonna need a contract lawyer'


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't the other issue here that the delivery schedule is estimated because of the best effort wording rather than having an agreed delivery schedule


It's difficult to tell because it's so heavily redacted and the fact they've defined "best efforts" in the definitions and interpretations doesn't really help either.




Just fucking waffle, isn't it?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Jan 29, 2021)

But we know, don't we, that bits of these contracts are confidential? Might there not also be bits which are not only confidential but secret? In which case how can we be certain of anything?


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

So people like this 

Is the general consensus here that they’re just wrong about the contract or that they’re lying ?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> So people like this
> View attachment 251918
> Is the general consensus here that they’re just wrong about the contract or that they’re lying ?



'Forseen' in this context seems to mean 'assumed'.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Are we at war with Eurasia yet?



We have always been at war with Eurasia.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What do we make of 13.1 ( E ) then?
> 
> View attachment 251916


Representations and warranties is just AZ saying that what is in the contract is true and that they have the right to enter into it.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Contract lawyer says 'you're gonna need a contract lawyer'



Yes, lots of riders about to be flying about.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Can this go on a separate thread?
> I want to read what fish people like to eat


??








						Covid vaccine contracts and distribution disputes
					

Who are you cheering on?




					www.urban75.net


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's difficult to tell because it's so heavily redacted and the fact they've defined "best efforts" in the definitions and interpretations doesn't really help either.
> 
> 
> View attachment 251917
> ...



The infrastructure part does imply that best effort would include using whatever part of that infrastructure is necessary to meet delivery targets.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That's what the head of the law society is saying, though based on the wording in a previously published vaccine supply contract.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That relies on this:



> The published contract with CureVac, which was highlighted by the legal writer David Allen Green , says “reasonable best efforts” include a commitment to “establish sufficient manufacturing capacities to enable the manufacturing and supply of contractually agreed volumes of the product … in accordance with the estimated delivery schedule”.



I can't find anything similar in the AZ/EU contract.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> The infrastructure part does imply that best effort would include using whatever part of that infrastructure is necessary to meet delivery targets.


estimated delivery targets in the case of this contract


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> So people like this
> View attachment 251918
> Is the general consensus here that they’re just wrong about the contract or that they’re lying ?



I just can't see where in the contract he's getting that from. If he's relying on 5.4 he's incontestably wrong. That suggests he's relying on something else but he's not telling us what.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

There’s no such thing as being incontestably wrong.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> There’s no such thing as being incontestably wrong.


Yes. Depends on how silly the contesting gets though.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> The infrastructure part does imply that best effort would include using whatever part of that infrastructure is necessary to meet delivery targets.


No it doesn't. It's only saying that their best efforts should be judged against what would be reasonable to expect from another company with similar resources. It's not a part of the agreement which is specifying what resources should be used and how. The infrastructure should be used in the way that the contract states, and the contract only says that they must make best efforts to meet targets using production infrastructure in the EU.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That relies on this:
> 
> 
> 
> I can't find anything similar in the AZ/EU contract.



I don't know enough or have time to read enough to check that. 

There are so many possibilities as to what happened during negotiations. I suspect that the EU lawyers have done the better job. AZ executives may well believe they are OK to prioritise UK deliveries because of the best effort part of the contract but if best effort actually means best effort, not best effort but supply the higher paying customers first and is specifically linked to use of company resources and infrastructure that puts the EU in a strong position.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

This gives an idea of how much of what these EU big-shots are talking is bollocks:



> She [Ursula Von der Lyen] said the “best effort” clause in the AstraZeneca contract with the EU was supposed to refer to the period during which the company was developing the vaccine. “This is now in the past. The vaccine is there. It still has to go through the approval process. Once a vaccine is there, there were very clear rules regarding amounts as well as timeframes – they are in the contract – and there are also locations where the vaccine should be produced.











						EU leaves UK off exempt list for tighter vaccine export controls
					

Health commissioner says bloc needs to ensure pharmaceutical firms live up to their promises




					www.theguardian.com
				




That's just not true. "Best effort" very clearly refers to "the development *and manufacture*" of the vaccine which is most certainly not in the past.

That makes the rest of her observation redundant.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

Seems pretty obvious that if you are supplying customer number one (who is paying more) and not supplying customer number two, then you are not giving customer number two your "best efforts".


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> estimated delivery targets in the case of this contract



Yes but this is where the EU lawyers have outsmarted the AZ lawyers. It doesn't matter that the delivery targets are an estimate because AZ are still compelled to make best efforts to meet them. Calling them estimated isn't a get out of jail free card.


----------



## Supine (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Isn't the other issue here that the delivery schedule is estimated because of the best effort wording rather than having an agreed delivery schedule



It doesnt really matter what the contract says - but they would be expected to have some wording around best efforts for a new product.  If there are technical problems trying to understand why the yield is varying between the factories the contract doesnt mean shit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Seems pretty obvious that if you are supplying customer number one (who is paying more) and not supplying customer number two, then you are not giving customer number two your "best efforts".


Despite the fact a) you are supplying customer 2 but not at the rate that they would like/expected and that b) customer number 2 hasnt approved the product that you are supplying. for use.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Giving up on my quest to become a contract lawyer in one easy lesson.

As it's the EU who have pushed for publication of the contract they must be fairly certain they are correctly interpreting it. It's quite possible that the AZ executives don't fully understand it or even that they have been misled by their legal team. There will have been a lot of pressure to conclude the deal and it's not beyond lawyers to smooth over weaknesses to their clients or for clients to suffer a bit of reality denial just to get to the signing off stage.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> As it's the EU who have pushed for publication of the contract they must be fairly certain they are correctly interpreting it.


That's a stretch, I think - more that it is sufficiently ambiguous to be a worthwhile play in the court of public opinion.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> As it's the EU who have pushed for publication of the contract they must be fairly certain they are correctly interpreting it. It's quite possible that the AZ executives don't fully understand it or even that they have been misled by their legal team. There will have been a lot of pressure to conclude the deal and it's not beyond lawyers to smooth over weaknesses to their clients or for clients to suffer a bit of reality denial just to get to the signing off stage.



Well that works both ways. AstraZeneca have now published the contract and we've seen above the way that the _President of the EU_ is demonstrably wrong in her interpretation of a very clear definition within it. I'm not sure there's any reason to rate her lawyers as better than those of AZ.


----------



## contadino (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> don't you find it interesting that the eu can declare non-eu countries to be in the eu for eu purposes without the say-so of that country?



Contract was signed in August, when the UK was in the EU.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

contadino said:


> Contract was signed in August, when the UK was in the EU.


Th UK was _not_ in the EU in August last year.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> No it doesn't. It's only saying that their best efforts should be judged against what would be reasonable to expect from another company with similar resources. It's not a part of the agreement which is specifying what resources should be used and how. The infrastructure should be used in the way that the contract states, and the contract only says that they must make best efforts to meet targets using production infrastructure in the EU.


This is correct and the most relevant thing amongst the last page or so. It's basically a legal version of "this is urgent, don't fuck about".

I don't think that Best Effort stuff is a barrier to supplying someone else simultaneously, as that's what such a company as is described would typically do. But I'm not a lawyer.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Despite the fact a) you are supplying customer 2 but not at the rate that they would like/expected and that b) customer number 2 hasnt approved the product that you are supplying. for use.


(a) doesn't alter the logic. If you're not treating two customers equally, one of them must be getting your "second-best efforts".

On (b), the AZ vaccine is scheduled for EU approval today (although who knows if that will happen, given the ongoing).


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

The overall problem for the EU vaccine roll out just isn't the contract with  AZ . There are multiple problems , it took ages to finalise its procurement strategy and for such a large demand  market came late to a supply market that the USA, Canada and UK had already entered. Add to this that normally supply and production networks for the vaccine would take years rather than months  to develop , companies not surprisingly  have struggled  with production .AZ isn't alone in telling the EU that it cant deliver expected supplies, Pfizer/ BioNTech  had problems at its plant in Belgium and then with the number of vials in each delivery, Modena has said that its deliveries to Italy and France will drop by 20% commencing February. Its not just the EU,  Canada has had problems with production with  Pfizer . The EU has  also got problems across member states not just with levels of  supplies but with states  that do have  have supplies but with  slow vaccination roll outs and low vaccination rates. A further issue is that in some states there is an entrenched anti vaccine culture , particularly France .


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

mauvais said:


> That's a stretch, I think - more that it is sufficiently ambiguous to be a worthwhile play in the court of public opinion.



That's possible but it doesn't seem too ambiguous to me as it's basically saying that the whole company infrastructure should be used as part of best efforts. There's going to be a lot of stretching going on over the next few days.


----------



## prunus (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This gives an idea of how much of what these EU big-shots are talking is bollocks:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just to stick this in here, because it's an important distinction and knowing it might be handy for someone one day when entering into a contract:  There is a world of difference between 'best efforts' and 'best reasonable endeavours' in a contract - if otherwise undefined (as they often are) 'best efforts' means 'move heaven and earth to achieve' and 'best reasonable efforts' (often just 'reasonable efforts' - the 'best' becomes redundant really in most interpretations) means 'do as much as possible that would be considered reasonable [by the famous man on the clapham omnibus, or in practice really, the judge]'.  Our shorthand at work for 'best efforts' is 'sell your kidney' - ie you have to do everything physically possible.  Never sign a contract committing you to best efforts (or endeavours).

In this case it's moot, as it's defined, so it means exactly what it says in the definition, no more and no less - they could have used any phrase - could have said "AZ will use a Lacksidaisical Approach to the development and manufacture..."  if they defined Lacksidaisical Approach the same way they'd defined Best Reasonable Efforts.  

HTH


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

prunus said:


> Never sign a contract committing you to best efforts (or endeavours).


Top tip. I did not know that. I would probably interpret 'best efforts' as implying 'reasonable'.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

prunus said:


> Just to stick this in here, because it's an important distinction and knowing it might be handy for someone one day when entering into a contract:  There is a world of difference between 'best efforts' and 'best reasonable endeavours' in a contract - if otherwise undefined (as they often are) 'best efforts' means 'move heaven and earth to achieve' and 'best reasonable efforts' (often just 'reasonable efforts' - the 'best' becomes redundant really in most interpretations) means 'do as much as possible that would be considered reasonable [by the famous man on the clapham omnibus, or in practice really, the judge]'.  Our shorthand at work for 'best efforts' is 'sell your kidney' - ie you have to do everything physically possible.  Never sign a contract committing you to best efforts (or endeavours).
> 
> In this case it's moot, as it's defined, so it means exactly what it says in the definition, no more and no less - they could have used any phrase - could have said "AZ will use a Lacksidaisical Approach to the development and manufacture..."  if they defined Lacksidaisical Approach the same way they'd defined Best Reasonable Efforts.
> 
> HTH


Sure. They can define it however they want. The point in quoting UVdL is that she's misinterpreting (or wilfully ignoring) the scope of it.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well that works both ways. AstraZeneca have now published the contract and we've seen above the way that the _President of the EU_ is demonstrably wrong in her interpretation of a very clear definition within it. I'm not sure there's any reason to rate her lawyers as better than those of AZ.



I can't work out her grounds for claiming the best effort part was solely applicable during development stage but the rest seems correct in terms of meeting the agreement even if it is being framed incorrectly.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Giving up on my quest to become a contract lawyer in one easy lesson.
> 
> As it's the EU who have pushed for publication of the contract they must be fairly certain they are correctly interpreting it. It's quite possible that the AZ executives don't fully understand it or even that they have been misled by their legal team. There will have been a lot of pressure to conclude the deal and it's not beyond lawyers to smooth over weaknesses to their clients or for clients to suffer a bit of reality denial just to get to the signing off stage.



Understandably. AZ are only a small firm who are renowned for using  dodgy and conniving legal advisers.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> (a) doesn't alter the logic. If you're not treating two customers equally, one of them must be getting your "second-best efforts".


Only if you have the same agreement with each customer. They don't (it seems).

You make your best efforts to deal with each customer according to the agreement you have with them.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That's possible but it doesn't seem too ambiguous to me as it's basically saying that the whole company infrastructure should be used as part of best efforts. There's going to be a lot of stretching going on over the next few days.


It's not saying this. Read what teuchter wrote. It's not a particularly meaningful clause.

If you and I signed a contract that said,

_"Anju will write as good a post as a poster with similar experience would write, having regard to the fact that the world is in the middle of a global pandemic, but taking into account spelling and grammar"_

then I couldn't sue you if you only wrote a post that was actually half good, half shit, because for a start you could rightly say that it was still just as good as one of - say - Spymaster's.

The middle about the pandemic - in either contract - seems to be illustrative flourish and legally useless.

It would be a breach of contract if AstraZeneca could be shown to be unreasonably underperforming in comparison to another global pharma company undertaking similar efforts.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Only if you have the same agreement with each customer. They don't (it seems).
> 
> You make your best efforts to deal with each customer according to the agreement you have with them.


But if your agreement says "best efforts" and someone else gets better efforts, then your agreement has been breached. What it says in their contract is not relevant to you.


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> But if your agreement says "best efforts" and someone else gets better efforts, then your agreement has been breached. What it says in their contract is not relevant to you.


No, because it defines best efforts to mean, well, not actually best efforts.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> I can't work out her grounds for claiming the best effort part was solely applicable during development stage but the rest seems correct in terms of meeting the agreement even if it is being framed incorrectly.


Well the 'development stage' part of what she said is pure nonsense. She's just trying it on. The rest is dependant on everything else we've been discussing here and just doesn't seem to be borne out by the contract.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Understandably. AZ are only a small firm who are renowned for using  dodgy and conniving legal advisers.



The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems where neither UK or US have done so. I'm not saying AZ's lawyers are incompetent just that they have been outmanoeuvred in this case.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> But if your agreement says "best efforts" and someone else gets better efforts, then your agreement has been breached. What it says in their contract is not relevant to you.


Best efforts to manufacture something in a certain location means just that. If you manufacture it in a different location, you are not making best efforts to do what you agreed, you are making best efforts to go above and beyond what you agreed (and at the cost of compromising an agreement you've made with someone else).

If I agree that I'll make my best efforts to get you to America by rowing boat, and the boat has sunk, then it would not reasonable to expect me to charter a plane, because I did not agree to make best efforts to get you to America by any means.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems where neither UK or US have done so.




How's that going for them so far?


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

prunus said:


> Just to stick this in here, because it's an important distinction and knowing it might be handy for someone one day when entering into a contract:  There is a world of difference between 'best efforts' and 'best reasonable endeavours' in a contract - if otherwise undefined (as they often are) 'best efforts' means 'move heaven and earth to achieve' and 'best reasonable efforts' (often just 'reasonable efforts' - the 'best' becomes redundant really in most interpretations) means 'do as much as possible that would be considered reasonable [by the famous man on the clapham omnibus, or in practice really, the judge]'.  Our shorthand at work for 'best efforts' is 'sell your kidney' - ie you have to do everything physically possible.  Never sign a contract committing you to best efforts (or endeavours).
> 
> In this case it's moot, as it's defined, so it means exactly what it says in the definition, no more and no less - they could have used any phrase - could have said "AZ will use a Lacksidaisical Approach to the development and manufacture..."  if they defined Lacksidaisical Approach the same way they'd defined Best Reasonable Efforts.
> 
> HTH


This is good to know. I did sign a thing recently that committed me to do a thing to my best reasonable efforts and am now very glad that the Reasonable bit is in there.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How's that going for them so far?



No idea as there don't seem to be too many people taking legal action related to adverse effects of the vaccines yet.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Also - it would seem quite plausible that AZ put that 5.1 clause in, precisely because they knew they had already committed to supply the UK from their UK sites (we don't know what those agreements actually say but I think we do know that the UK contract was agreed first). So it would be entirely reasonable for them only to commit, in this agreement, to providing capacity elsewhere.

It would certainly be interesting to know what was said in whatever negotiations led to the wording of 5.1. Because if AZ effectively said, ok, here is what we can offer you because we've already offered the output of the UK plant to the UK, then the EU has no reasonable grounds to start saying now that supplies should be diverted from there. If they weren't happy with that agreement they shouldn't have signed up to it.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

mauvais said:


> No, because it defines best efforts to mean, well, not actually best efforts.


No, because what appears in the definitions section is "best reasonable efforts", whereas what the agreement requires of AZ wrt manufacturing is "best efforts" - as someone noted above, these are distinct terms of art.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems where neither UK or US have done so. I'm not saying AZ's lawyers are incompetent just that they have been outmanoeuvred in this case.


How does this ' The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems' work in practise?


----------



## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> The infrastructure part does imply that best effort would include using whatever part of that infrastructure is necessary to meet delivery targets.


I'm not a contract lawyer, but common sense suggests that best efforts don't include riding rough shod over the terms of another entirely separate contract to supply the same product to a third party, particularly when that contract with the third party was entered into three months beforehand.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jan 29, 2021)

Just now on the news, a spokesman for that bastion of transparency and accountability The EU talking solemnly about how glad he was the EU-AZ contract has been published, because _transparency and accountability are so very important_.

He sounded German, so I'm not sure he was necessarily joking.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Best efforts to manufacture something in a certain location means just that. If you manufacture it in a different location, you are not making best efforts to do what you agreed, you are making best efforts to go above and beyond what you agreed (and at the cost of compromising an agreement you've made with someone else).
> 
> If I agree that I'll make my best efforts to get you to America by rowing boat, and the boat has sunk, then it would not reasonable to expect me to charter a plane, because I did not agree to make best efforts to get you to America by any means.


What you are saying doesn't match up to what's in the document. AZ agreed to use their best efforts to manufacture within the UK and EU, not at a particular site.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How does this ' The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems' work in practise?



That any claims against them have to be defended and if lost compensated from their own pockets.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Just now on the news, a spokesman for that bastion of transparency and accountability The EU talking solemnly about how glad he was the EU-AZ contract has been published, because _transparency and accountability are so very important_.
> 
> He sounded German, so I'm not sure he was necessarily joking.


Our gov has apparently said they won’t publish the UK’s contract with AZ for national security reasons.
Sounded English so not sure if necessarily pompous and secretive.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

contadino said:


> Contract was signed in August, when the UK was in the EU.


----------



## prunus (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, because what appears in the definitions section is "best reasonable efforts", whereas what the agreement requires of AZ wrt manufacturing is "best efforts" - as someone noted above, these are distinct terms of art.



I didn't see anywhere AZ had committed to best efforts (as opposed to Best Reasonable Efforts) - can you point out please?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, because what appears in the definitions section is "best reasonable efforts", whereas what the agreement requires of AZ wrt manufacturing is "best efforts" - as someone noted above, these are distinct terms of art.


No, it's "best reasonable efforts" regarding the manufacturing. If you got "best efforts" from one of my posts it was me being lazy. Apologies.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

prunus said:


> I didn't see anywhere AZ had committed to best efforts (as opposed to Best Reasonable Efforts) - can you point out please?


See above. I think I might have misled him.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> What you are saying doesn't match up to what's in the document. AZ agreed to use their best efforts to manufacture within the UK and EU, not at a particular site.


No they didn't, they agreed to use their best efforts to manufacture in the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's difficult to tell because it's so heavily redacted and the fact they've defined "best efforts" in the definitions and interpretations doesn't really help either.
> 
> 
> View attachment 251917
> ...


i was disappointed not to see the pizza company terms and conditions, which are a must for any contract with hmg


----------



## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> From what I can tell the EU believe that AZ have been moving supplies from Belgian plant to UK, hence the inspection of the factory. If that's the case then AZ are most likely in breach of their contact.



Then they would have passed through customs to get there. AZ have factories in the uk anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The uglier the mess, the more you get paid.


if that was the case universally, sewage jobs would be highly sought after


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm not a contract lawyer, but common sense suggests that best efforts don't include riding rough shod over the terms of another entirely separate contract to supply the same product to a third party, particularly when that contract with the third party was entered into three months beforehand.



Agree with that. I think most likely outcome will be compromise on both. UK are refusing to publish our contract so it's difficult to speculate on what changes might be made but given that we have about 10 times our population in vaccine dose orders any adjustments might be more on the UK side as it seems reasonable to look at the overall situation and then work towards a more even distribution.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

teuchter said:


> No they didn't, they agreed to use their best efforts to manufacture in the EU.


Which is defined for the purposes of the section as including the UK, as you know.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No, it's "best reasonable efforts" regarding the manufacturing. If you got "best efforts" from one of my posts it was me being lazy. Apologies.


Also from the text of the contract. Not that this excuses your laziness, mind


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

moochedit said:


> Then they would have passed through customs to get there. AZ have factories in the uk anyway.



Yes and the EU believe that the UK factories have been supplied in part with stuff from EU factories, which apparently would constitute a breach of contract.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Which is defined for the purposes of the section as including the UK, as you know.


For the purposes of the section which is defining a preference for the manufacturing to take place in certain locations. It means that if there is a choice between manufacturing in the EU/UK and manufacturing elewhere, then they should make best efforts to make it happen in the EU/UK.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

a lesson that can be taken from this is that the eu lawyers aren't as good as they think they are, that the az lawyers aren't as good as _they_ think they are, and that if the british government lawyers are as competent as the administration they serve then they are bloody awful.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Also from the text of the contract. Not that this excuses your laziness, mind


The text of the contract defines "best reasonable efforts"


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The text of the contract defines "best reasonable efforts"View attachment 251930


Yes it does, but see my earlier post #6614.


----------



## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

AZ must have had potential brexit problems in mind when planning last year where to locate factories so the UK factories were obviously intended for the UK supply and belgium and dutch for the EU supply. It is unfortunate that the EU factories have had problems but there was no uk conspiracy.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That any claims against them have to be defended and if lost compensated from their own pockets.


Are you referring to liablity ?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> That any claims against them have to be defended and if lost compensated from their own pockets.


tbh it's more likely it will come from their insurers' pockets


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

moochedit said:


> AZ must have had potential brexit problems in mind when planning last year where to locate factories so the UK factories were obviously intended for the UK supply and belgium and dutch for the EU supply. It is unfortunate that the EU factories have had problems but there was no uk conspiracy.


Whatever the reasons, what is important - saving lives, getting us all out of lockdown ('us' meaning 'the world' here) - is getting lost. That's to nobody's credit.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Are you referring to liablity ?



Yes, my post was worded very well.


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> tbh it's more likely it will come from their insurers' pockets



I guess so, assuming they can get such insurance. There have been major compensation payouts for vaccine injury in the past so how easy it would be to get insurance on a new vaccine for a new virus I have no idea.


----------



## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Yes and the EU believe that the UK factories have been supplied in part with stuff from EU factories, which apparently would constitute a breach of contract.


Well lets see if they find any evidence of that.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

moochedit said:


> AZ must have had potential brexit problems in mind when planning last year where to locate factories so the UK factories were obviously intended for the UK supply and belgium and dutch for the EU supply. It is unfortunate that the EU factories have had problems but there was no uk conspiracy.


I don't think there's a conspiracy involving the UK government. They can't even conspire properly among themselves.

The situation is that Astrazeneca are taking a decision which maximises their revenues and which will cost lives, all else being equal.

It's also not defensible as something they are forced or entitled to do under their contract with the EU. It's a breach of what they agreed to, and a choice.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Yes and the EU believe that the UK factories have been supplied in part with stuff from EU factories, which apparently would constitute a breach of contract.


A breach of what clause?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> I guess so, assuming they can get such insurance. There have been major compensation payouts for vaccine injury in the past so how easy it would be to get insurance on a new vaccine for a new virus I have no idea.


some years ago when i got a payout from a police force it came from their insurers. so i imagine other institutions have insurance for legal awards too.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Whatever the reasons, what is important - saving lives, getting us all out of lockdown ('us' meaning 'the world' here) - is getting lost. That's to nobody's credit.


Possibly, but the UK is now obliged to put its own citizens interests above those of the EU, just like the EU have said that they will 'stop at nothing to ensure the best outcome' for theirs. It seems that the EU is trying to treat the UK as if they were still an EU member and dictate what the UK should do with its vaccine supply. And they're doing this with a gun in their hand by suggesting that they'll impede EU exports of the vaccine to the UK. As you say, nobody is smelling of roses but the EU are playing the dirtier cards.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think there's a conspiracy involving the UK government. They can't even conspire properly among themselves.
> 
> The situation is that Astrazeneca


yeh that astrazeneca


----------



## Anju (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A breach of what clause?



Reasonable best efforts. At least that's what the law society lawyer claims.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 29, 2021)

This contract is going to be the new 'plane takes off'.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Yes, my post was worded very well.


All you posts are worded well Anju, appearance though  isn't the problem.  Re liability the EU offering AZ partial liability was the reason the price was low


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

The EMA have only just now (10 minutes ago) approved the AZ vaccine.


----------



## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

If that's the EU contract, (agreed between Aug - Oct 2020)    what happened to  Germany initiated a small vaccine alliance in the spring together with France, Italy and the Netherlands. In a first step, they reached an agreement with AstraZeneca for 400 million doses. The move was primarily intended as a means of exerting pressure because there wasn’t enough happening in Brussels. "Many countries around the world have already secured vaccines, but Europe hasn’t yet,” Health Minister Spahn warned at the time.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I don't think there's a conspiracy involving the UK government. They can't even conspire properly among themselves.
> 
> The situation is that Astrazeneca are taking a decision which maximises their revenues and which will cost lives, all else being equal.
> 
> It's also not defensible as something they are forced or entitled to do under their contract with the EU. It's a breach of what they agreed to, and a choice.


If only there was a way of taking the profit motive out of the pharmaceutical  inustry


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If only there was a way of taking the profit motive out of the pharmaceutical  inustry


Indeed. Or, failing that, not rushing to its moral defence when you see it.


----------



## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

Coronavirus: EU confirms export controls on vaccines


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> If only there was a way of taking the profit motive out of the pharmaceutical  inustry


Yeahbut it's 'not for profit'.   

Astrazeneca's boss earned £14.3m in 2019. 

It's not really a lot, though, so that's ok. 



> Mr Soriot said:" The truth is I'm the lowest-paid CEO in the whole industry,"



Communism basically.

AstraZeneca faces humiliating revolt over chief Soriot's pay package


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Possibly, but the UK is now obliged to put its own citizens interests above those of the EU, just like the EU have said that they will 'stop at nothing to ensure the best outcome' for theirs. It seems that the EU is trying to treat the UK as if they were still an EU member and dictate what the UK should do with its vaccine supply. And they're doing this with a gun in their hand by suggesting that they'll impede EU exports of the vaccine to the UK. As you say, nobody is smelling of roses but the EU are playing the dirtier cards.





gosub said:


> Coronavirus: EU confirms export controls on vaccines



Ta da!

That is aimed full-square at the UK, as SpookyFrank was saying yesterday.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> If that's the EU contract, (agreed between Aug - Oct 2020)    what happened to  Germany initiated a small vaccine alliance in the spring together with France, Italy and the Netherlands. In a first step, they reached an agreement with AstraZeneca for 400 million doses. The move was primarily intended as a means of exerting pressure because there wasn’t enough happening in Brussels. "Many countries around the world have already secured vaccines, but Europe hasn’t yet,” Health Minister Spahn warned at the time.


Havent read the article but I think  that order/agreement , from the comically named ,   “Inclusive Vaccine Alliance”  was subsumed into the EU's procurement strategy after complaints from other EU states that they weren't part of the chosen few. The  'Inclusive ' four were all given seats on the seven member negotiating team for EU vaccine procurement.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeahbut it's 'not for profit'.
> 
> Astrazeneca's boss earned £14.3m in 2019.
> 
> ...


Apparantly they are flogging the vaccine to South Africa at  €4.32  a go


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly they are flogging the vaccine to South Africa at  €4.32  a go


does that include delivery?

i note it's rather more than the us govt is paying (under $4)

in november az said they'd provide it cheap to developing countries COVID-19 Vaccine Prices Revealed From Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> war is what my-nation-state first + protectionism is all about, see history for details, no?


"The protection and safety of our citizens is a priority and the challenges we now face left us with no choice but to act," the European Commission said.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> does that include delivery?
> 
> i note it's rather more than the us govt is paying (under $4)
> 
> in november az said they'd provide it cheap to developing countries COVID-19 Vaccine Prices Revealed From Pfizer, Moderna, and AstraZeneca


apparantly South Africa didnt front up 'development costs' to an already  developed product that been approved


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly they are flogging the vaccine to South Africa at  €4.32  a go


They can't be, because they said this...



> The coronavirus vaccine produced by Oxford University and AstraZeneca will be available on a non-profit basis “in perpetuity” to low- and middle-income countries in the developing world.



Oxford AstraZeneca vaccine to be sold to developing countries at cost price

That nice Mr Soriot wouldn't fib to us.


----------



## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Its all pretty grim but i think all this talk about WAR and the EU having 'a gun in their hand' (spymaster i'm looking at you) is a bit mental.
None of what is happening makes either side look like the goodies but also none of its surprising is it, given that the interests of UK and EU are directly opposed over a scarce & urgent resource.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> Its all pretty grim but i think all this talk about WAR and the EU having 'a gun in their hand' (spymaster i'm looking at you) is a bit mental.


Why? It's_ precisely_ what has happened, as predicted yesterday by SpookyFrank, in a spectacular example of a stopped clock being correct twice a day!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They can't be, because they said this...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Countries have been lobbying the WHO over removing intellectual property rights over vaccines. The EU and UK obviously opposing


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Countries have been lobbying the WHO over removing intellectual property rights over vaccines. The EU and UK obviously opposing
> 
> View attachment 251940


Wankers. 



> *Edward R. Murrow*: Who owns the patent on this vaccine?
> *Jonas Salk*: *Well, the people, I would say. There is no patent. Could you patent the sun?*



But that nice Mr Soriot only asks for £14.9m a year. It's really not too much to ask.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A breach of what clause?


Not delivery . Two other suppliers have failed to meet targets as well


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, because what appears in the definitions section is "best reasonable efforts", whereas what the agreement requires of AZ wrt manufacturing is "best efforts" - as someone noted above, these are distinct terms of art.


Missed this, not looked at the full doc and just following along on here. Where is it?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Why? It's_ precisely_ what has happened, as predicted yesterday by SpookyFrank, in a spectacular example of a stopped clock being correct twice a day!



I actually predicted it wouldn't happen, and only pointed out that if it did it would be an unjustifiable attack on the British public as an act of broad-spectrum vengeance for the perceived (and still highly debatable) failings of a private enterprise. 

I still don't think Pfizer exports to the UK will be meaningfully affected. The 'controls' announced are vague and quite possibly toothless, assuming Pfizer's operation is all kosher which there seems to be no reason to doubt. That being said, even if this is just posturing it is still indefensible. I grow more thankful for brexit with each hour that passes tbh.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How does this ' The EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems' work in practise?



On current evidence, not well.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Missed this, not looked at the full doc and just following along on here. Where is it?


I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.

I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Anju said:


> Yes and the EU believe that the UK factories have been supplied in part with stuff from EU factories, which apparently would constitute a breach of contract.



So, they can have (and are demanding with menaces) AZ vaccines from UK factories but if the UK has had any AZ vaccines from EU factories, even if this happened before the EU approved said vaccine, then that's not OK?

The phrase 'hmm' springs to mind.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

At this point let me state that I begrudge no EU or other citizen access to vaccines. I feel for those on both sides of the channel currently awaiting vaccines and unsure if they'll get them or not. But the EU leadership is sabre-rattling instead of working in good faith to come to a resolution, and no good will come of that for anyone. Anyone except lawyers anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.
> 
> I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.


50 years? Are you referring to the auld 30 year rule, which is now the 20 year rule?


----------



## mauvais (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm going to have to own up to being mistaken on that point. "Best efforts" has appeared in press reports, but seemingly nowhere in the document.
> 
> I don't think it necessarily makes much of a difference to Astrazeneca's ethical position, though, unless they had signed a contract with the UK on superior terms so that the EU agreement was effectively trumped. We'll never know unless we're alive in 50 years' time, but I think the chances are very, very small, particularly since Astrazeneca have not given any indication that it is the case.


Ethical maybe but I don't think contractually.

Separate it from the UK vs EU thing. What _would_ you (or anyone) expect a manufacturer like AZ to do in the context of the described pandemic? It's a public emergency but what do we expect of corporations? Because, somewhat laughably, it seems the behaviour of their peers define the expectations.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 29, 2021)

EU invoking A16  





> *The EU is introducing export controls on vaccines made in the bloc, amid a row about delivery shortfalls.*
> Under Northern Ireland's Brexit deal all products should be exported from the EU to NI without checks or controls.
> But the EU believed this could be used to circumvent export controls, with NI becoming a backdoor to the wider UK.
> DUP leader Arlene Foster described the move as "an incredible act of hostility" by the EU.
> The EU invoked Article 16 of the Northern Ireland Protocol which allows parts of the deal to be unilaterally overridden.


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## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

Reckon this outcome will turn on a court definition of the word "Reasonable".


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

brogdale said:


> EU invoking A16
> 
> View attachment 251953



There's that 'bad faith' I was talking about.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Ethical maybe but I don't think contractually.
> 
> Separate it from the UK vs EU thing. What _would_ you (or anyone) expect a manufacturer like AZ to do in the context of the described pandemic? It's a public emergency but what do we expect of corporations? Because, somewhat laughably, it seems the behaviour of their peers define the expectations.


I'd probably expect them to act in exactly the same beancounting, amoral and dishonest way they have. But I'd also expect reasonable people to recognise it for what it is, rather than start involuntarily humming Rule Britannia.


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland'  brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .

Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over


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## andysays (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'd probably expect them to act in exactly the same beancounting, amoral and dishonest way they have. But I'd also expect reasonable people to recognise it for what it is, rather than start involuntarily humming Rule Britannia.


Are you seriously suggesting that being critical of the EU's actions here is equivalent to humming Rule Britannia, involuntarily or otherwise?


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> At this point let me state that I begrudge no EU or other citizen access to vaccines. I feel for those on both sides of the channel currently awaiting vaccines and unsure if they'll get them or not. But the EU leadership is sabre-rattling instead of working in good faith to come to a resolution, and no good will come of that for anyone. Anyone except lawyers anyway.


There's got to be an element of the EU rattling whatever sabres they can find so as to look tough and assertive for their own home audiences, as it really does appear that the EU has ballsed up the whole vaccine process pretty tragically and everyone knows it.
But at the same time, every vaccine dose they can get / keep is a really valuable thing so there's a real world non showmanship side to their actions too.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> 50 years? Are you referring to the auld 30 year rule, which is now the 20 year rule?


Aye, that one. I was thinking of Crown Copyright. As you do.


----------



## stdP (Jan 29, 2021)

Interesting take on this from Spiegel whcih is putting the blame solely at Ursula von der Leyen's feet:


> Europe is facing a vaccine disaster. Whereas countries like Israel, Britain and the United States. are quickly moving ahead with vaccinations, the EU is reeling from a string of setbacks. First, U.S. pharmaceutical giant Pfizer and its German partner BioNTech informed Brussels that it would be delivering far less vaccine than planned in the coming weeks. Then, the company AstraZeneca said it would only be delivering 31 million doses of its vaccine by the end of March instead of the 80 million Europe had been expecting. And again, the Commission was caught completely off guard.
> 
> Since then, frustration and anger has been growing across the EU. Europe, one of the most affluent regions in the world, is proving to be unable to quickly protect its citizens from a deadly disease, while other countries are showing how it is done.
> 
> ...











						Europe's Vaccine Disaster: Commission President Ursula von der Leyen Seeks to Duck Responsibility
					

European Commission President Ursula von der Leyen is trying to get out of the firing line as anger grows over the EU's botched vaccine rollout. It's not the first time in her career that she has sought to evade responsibility.




					www.spiegel.de
				




I'm not sure what stance Spiegel has with her historically but it's a fairly damning article, suggesting this is all part of her usual blame game.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland'  brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .
> 
> Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over
> 
> View attachment 251954



I reckon I could take him tbh.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> Are you seriously suggesting that being critical of the EU's actions here is equivalent to humming Rule Britannia, involuntarily or otherwise?


No. I do think though, that it would be lopsided to focus on those actions as the truly scandalous part of the picture. They do have a more than reasonable complaint, and a pressing to need to action.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No. I do think though, that it would be lopsided to focus on those actions as the truly scandalous part of the picture. They do have a more than reasonable complaint, and a pressing to need to action.



They seem to be complaining that a vaccine they approved sometime after lunch on a Friday should have been delivered in its hundreds of millions of doses by teatime the same day.

They're giving it the big I am about having invested in the vaccine but the fact of it is that if they were to get the vaccines earmarked for the UK they'd be benefiting directly from the contract the UK government made with AZ that enabled them to get that production up and running early. If we're talking about ethics there's obviously more to it than who paid what and when, but argument being me made is not an ethical one, it's a 'disgruntled consumer' one.


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

If the argument being made were explicitly an ethical one it would look like begging though, like weakness, and they can't do that can they.


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland'  brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .
> 
> Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over
> 
> View attachment 251954



philosophical to the Manager's office, philosophical to the Manager's office...


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> If the argument being made were explicitly an ethical one it would look like begging though, like weakness, and they can't do that can they.



In fairness it would be unlikely to butter any parsnips with a sociopath like Johnson.

I reckon we should give them a few vaccines if they agree to give us Belgium. It's ideally situated to be turned into the new Brexit lorry park.


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Don't settle for Belgium, it's crap. And we have those gunboats remember.


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## sleaterkinney (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland'  brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .
> 
> Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over


That’s a massive own goal by the EU, they just moved the border back to between NI and the republic.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> That’s a massive own goal by the EU, they just moved the border back to between NI and the republic.



Wonder if the ROI was even consulted.


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wonder if the ROI was even consulted.



I'd laugh my tits off if not - i'm also going to laugh my tits off if it was.


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## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wonder if the ROI was even consulted.



The irish pm is "in touch to raise concerns" about it apparently! (So i'd say no they weren't)

RTE.ie: EU controls on vaccines to NI an 'act of hostility'.








						NI Protocol 'unaffected' by new EU vaccine measures
					

The EU will not trigger the Article 16 safeguard clause of the Northern Ireland Protocol over the exporting of Covid-19 vaccines, a statement from the Commission has confirmed.




					www.rte.ie


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

Classic von der Leyan...


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

this looks bad. Go on kebabking how is it funny, just in a very gallows way?


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## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

No consultation with the north or the south of Ireland. After all the tortuous negotiations they go and do this. 

That the Commissioner c_an _do it is the worst thing.


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> this looks bad. Go on kebabking how is it funny, just in a very gallows way?



It's fucking hilarious. I doubt it will do actual damage because pretty much everyone - Irish government, Irish media, Irish body politic - has gone mental at the utter fuckwittery of VDL in pulling a stupid, stupid, stunt on same day it's become obvious to the entire EU that she's catastrophically fucked the vaccine job. It will be quietly withdrawn, there'll be lots of damage limitation and everyone will be rather more wary of putting the power to do in the hands of a drooling moron.


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

I had no idea that one person like her could make massive decisions like this. Sort of imagined a vast board room table with 27 suits with huge stacks of paper in front of them having to agree any move.


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## MickiQ (Jan 29, 2021)

Their  not thinking this pissing contest through are they? Surely if EU vaccines can be 'diverted' to The UK via NI then the reverse is true? especially now that the Border is just a line on a map.


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had no idea that one person like her could make massive decisions like this. Sort of imagined a vast board room table with 27 suits with huge stacks of paper in front of them having to agree any move.



Nope, Irish government not consulted. It's _staggering _ineptitude on her part, and a catastrophic failure of systems within the EU structures.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had no idea that one person like her could make massive decisions like this. Sort of imagined a vast board room table with 27 suits with huge stacks of paper in front of them having to agree any move.


Think normally she wouldn't be able to do something like this alone, but it's a power under the Brexit agreement, so it's different.

She's pretty, er, brave if she really has done this without consultation. And I can't work out what it is meant to achieve.


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had no idea that one person like her could make massive decisions like this. Sort of imagined a vast board room table with 27 suits with huge stacks of paper in front of them having to agree any move.


Or putting it forward for approval to the EU parliament?


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## bimble (Jan 29, 2021)

Macron looks like he’s flailing about , not criticising the decision just a giant wibble of an interview.








						Macron calls for Covid vaccine exports from EU to be controlled
					

French president bemoans ‘questionable behaviour’ and says deliveries ‘do not honour’ contractual agreements




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Or putting it forward for approval to the EU parliament?



Don't be silly!


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## philosophical (Jan 29, 2021)

kebabking said:


> philosophical to the Manager's office, philosophical to the Manager's office...



Kaaazoom.
The invocation of article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol, which has been described elsewhere as the 'nuclear option' has come about earlier than expected, and for a reason that negotiators didn't really anticipate.
The Northern Ireland protocol was negotiated by the EU and this 'get brexit done' government.
It is about what does or does not cross the EU/UK border, and presumably in the future the land border in particular.
To me it is the inevitable result of brexit that sooner or later 'issues' with the EU/UK border would happen.
Brexit voters knew what they were voting for, so I suppose it's down to them to sort it out now the border problem has arisen less than a month into 'leaving' with this 'deal'.


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## mojo pixy (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Or putting it forward for approval to the EU parliament?



And the tooth fairy!


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

moochedit said:


> The irish pm is "in touch to raise concerns" about it apparently! (So i'd say no they weren't)
> 
> RTE.ie: EU controls on vaccines to NI an 'act of hostility'.
> 
> ...



The EU is banging all sorts of nails in its own coffin today.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Think normally she wouldn't be able to do something like this alone, but it's a power under the Brexit agreement, so it's different.
> 
> She's pretty, er, brave if she really has done this without consultation. And I can't work out what it is meant to achieve.



Have a think about the level of talent that has risen to the top in UK politics and ask why should it be any different with the EU.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Or putting it forward for approval to the EU parliament?



Good one, I needed a laugh today.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The EU is banging all sorts of nails in its own coffin today.


Only if it fails to secure vaccine supplies.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Only if it fails to secure vaccine supplies.



It already has, that's what all this is about.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have a think about the level of talent that has risen to the top in UK politics and ask why should it be any different with the EU.


Actually, I'm going to step back a bit from criticising VDL here. If the EU is planning to restrict vaccine imports to the UK (it is looking that way), then invoking article 16 looks to be an unavoidable step, rather than a judgement call.

So then the question is whether the EU can achieve anything with export restrictions.


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## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

The UK and EU seem to be in competition for who can be the most fuck-witted decision makers, after an early lead by the UK it is now neck and neck...(looks for noose)


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> It already has, that's what all this is about.


Real coffins, though. That's the thing not to ignore.


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## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

tbf This lack of vaccines in the EU is very concerning. And it is in the UK's interest to see what could be done.  The government  should appoint Chris Grayling to look into the matter, at some stage, soonish


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Actually, I'm going to step back a bit from criticising VDL here. If the EU is planning to restrict vaccine imports to the UK (it is looking that way), then invoking article 16 looks to be an unavoidable step, rather than a judgement call.
> 
> So then the question is whether the EU can achieve anything with export restrictions.


According to one site , Euro news , it’s all been a terrible mistake and has been rescinded. If true then your question about whether the EU can achieve anything with export restrictions needs to move back to what can the EU do to get more vaccines .


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## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Unnamed EU diplomats doing synchronised facepalms here. 








						'Welcome news': relief as EU backtracks on NI Covid vaccine move
					

Irish foreign minister warns Northern Ireland protocol ‘not something to be tampered with lightly’




					www.theguardian.com


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## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

Arlene Foster is really scathing in the Guardian piece above.


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## Raheem (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Arlene Foster is really scathing in the Guardian piece above.


OK, well that's me sold, then.


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## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

I think one lesson/benefit here about Brexit is that it allows nation states to be more agile in their decision making having left the bloc.  Whether the decisions made are better or worse because of this is of course a different question.


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Raheem said:


> OK, well that's me sold, then.



Foster's not wrong though. And if you've managed to make Arlene Foster look reasonable, you must have got something very wrong.


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## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Arlene Foster is really scathing in the Guardian piece above.



None of them are happy (as you would expect)...

Belfast Telegraph: Coronavirus: NI parties unite against EU controls on vaccines amid 22 deaths and 669 new cases.









						Coronavirus: NI parties unite against EU controls on vaccines amid 22 deaths and 669 new cases
					

Northern Ireland's political parties have united to denounce an EU move to halt the operation of an element of Brexit's Northern Ireland Protocol as part of the bloc's attempts to control the export of vaccinations from the EU.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

Not even telling the Irish taoiseach first I mean for fuck's sake.


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 29, 2021)

What an absolute fuck up


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## mojo pixy (Jan 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> What an absolute fuck up



You seriously should register that as a trademark. Do it today. Everyone will want it soon.


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## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

Dublin have had a word and the EUropean Commission are having another think about things


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## TopCat (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not even telling the Irish taoiseach first I mean for fuck's sake.


Not even a text.


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## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not even a text.



No emoji even


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## BlanketAddict (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Not even telling the Irish taoiseach first I mean for fuck's sake.



Makes no sense. How can a member state, a directly affected one at that, be put in such a position? Very disrespectful and potentially very damaging to the Irish Republic. A bad look for the EU, I thought they were supposed to be a comprehensive bloc.


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## kebabking (Jan 29, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I think one lesson/benefit here about Brexit is that it allows nation states to be more agile in their decision making having left the bloc.  Whether the decisions made are better or worse because of this is of course a different question.



i think i'd be more nuanced than that - EU member states were under no compunction to join in this joint vaccine buy. there certainly was political pressure to do so, but nothing legal. it seems quite a few have been seriously unhappy with the (non) progress made by the EC on this, but the fundamental problem they have is a political unwillingness to damage 'the project' by pulling out of this or that programme when its very obviously turning to shit. regardless of the cost.

it will be the same with VDL: she has done catastrophic damage to the Ireland situation - without consultation - on the same day its been made clear that she has massively fucked up the vaccine purchase. but she'll neither resign, nor be asked to by member states, because of the damage that would do to 'the project'.

the EU_ should_ be a tool for its member states to use, or not use, according to the situation, but instead its become the tail that wags the dog.


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## BlanketAddict (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> tbf This lack of vaccines in the EU is very concerning. And it is in the UK's interest to see what could be done.  The government  should appoint Chris Grayling to look into the matter, at some stage, soonish



Dust off those ferry contracts!


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## Smangus (Jan 29, 2021)

kebabking said:


> i think i'd be more nuanced than that - EU member states were under no compunction to join in this joint vaccine buy. there certainly was political pressure to do so, but nothing legal. it seems quite a few have been seriously unhappy with the (non) progress made by the EC on this, but the fundamental problem they have is a political unwillingness to damage 'the project' by pulling out of this or that programme when its very obviously turning to shit. regardless of the cost.
> 
> it will be the same with VDL: she has done catastrophic damage to the Ireland situation - without consultation - on the same day its been made clear that she has massively fucked up the vaccine purchase. but she'll neither resign, nor be asked to by member states, because of the damage that would do to 'the project'.
> 
> the EU_ should_ be a tool for its member states to use, or not use, according to the situation, but instead its become the tail that wags the dog.



True and I agree, but it has the same effect - resulting in delay and prevarication which has a knock on effect to the end result - a decision being made at a faster pace, not delaying results. All due to the concern about upsetting "the project".


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Smangus said:


> I think one lesson/benefit here about Brexit is that it allows nation states to be more agile in their decision making having left the bloc.  Whether the decisions made are better or worse because of this is of course a different question.


I think that’s true in this case and of course the U.K. had the Oxford vaccine. The EU idea of an a procurement strategy in itself wasn’t a bad idea ie using a huge budget to negotiate lower prices . It was preferable to a free for all in which the richer states bought up suppliers leaving the poorer states to scrabble about and a scenario where suppliers under confidential contracts could try and charge different countries different rates . The EU knew that the USA , and Canada had started to look for vaccines and suppliers , knew that Russia had the capability of producing their own at some stage and that the U.K. could do what best suited them . The main question for me ( and I have a valid interest not only being an EU resident with access to the health service but also at this moment barred from the U.K. )  why did it take them so long to come to a decision to go for a procurement strategy? There’s other questions on my mind as well , then why so long to strike agreements , approve vaccines ? why did they put all their eggs on one basket with AZ ?  why didn’t they encourage and collaborate on a EU vaccine ? Aside from paying up front research and development costs what else could they have offered to the suppliers ? For me it’s not a U.K./ EU battle it’s about trying in some way to hold them and the pharmaceutical industries to account .


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 29, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> Makes no sense. How can a member state, a directly affected one at that, be put in such a position? Very disrespectful and potentially very damaging to the Irish Republic. A bad look for the EU, I thought they were supposed to be a comprehensive bloc.



They're now denying that the button was ever pushed. Someone at EUHQ has been at the schnapps I reckon.


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## BlanketAddict (Jan 29, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're now denying that the button was ever pushed. Someone at EUHQ has been at the schnapps I reckon.



A U-turn of Boris proportions! What a time to be alive!


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Jesus, even the Lib Dems had a go at the EU


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## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Jesus, even the Lib Dems had a go at the EU


The worms have turned


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 29, 2021)

How did the EU even announce this bollocks? Press release or tweet?


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## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The worms have turned



Lib dems u turn shocker!


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> How did the EU even announce this bollocks? Press release or tweet?


it was on their site , taken down now.


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## moochedit (Jan 29, 2021)

Bbc reporting they've u turned now..

BBC News - EU vaccine export row: Bloc backtracks on controls for NI









						EU vaccine export row: Bloc backtracks on controls for NI
					

It follows anger over a decision to invoke an emergency provision in the Brexit deal in order to control vaccine exports.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Hungary has just approved and will but  the Chinese vaccine


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## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

I voted remain, by a hair's breadth, but this is an object lesson as to why LEAVE was the correct choice.

"Ooh ooh, I cant travel to Europe" .... yes you can. You just have a few moe hoops to jump through. But the EU might try to make your life harder

"Oooh, but I need a visa to work or live in the EU" ... Tough shit. So does everyone else in the world. You just lost your automatic right to jump the queue ahead of black and brown people who probably have more to offer than you anyway.

"Oooh, you're stealing vaccines that we should have, despite the fact that we've been abject morons in delivering our own. in the face of continual warnings that we're falling short of production".

Fucking bunch of wankers


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I voted remain, by a hair's breadth but this is an object lesson as to why LEAVE was the correct choice.
> 
> "Ooh ooh, I cant travel to Europe" .... yes you can. You just have a few moe hoops to jump through. But the EU might try to make your life harder
> 
> ...


It's not just that, there's the way their first decision isn't to seek arbitration but to reach for the doomsday Ireland clause

Without it seems consulting dublin


----------



## gosub (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I voted remain, by a hair's breadth but this is an object lesson as to why LEAVE was the correct choice.
> 
> "Ooh ooh, I cant travel to Europe" .... yes you can. You just have a few moe hoops to jump through. But the EU might try to make your life harder
> 
> ...



Still, they've done a good job of preventing continental outbreaks of cheese and ham sandwiches


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## Artaxerxes (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> Still, they've done a good job of preventing continental outbreaks of cheese and ham sandwiches



Cheese and ham croissants are a war crime


----------



## agricola (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> Still, they've done a good job of preventing continental outbreaks of cheese and ham sandwiches



people who eat that sort of thing do deserve quarantining


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## Spymaster (Jan 29, 2021)

gosub said:


> Still, they've done a good job of preventing continental outbreaks of cheese and ham sandwiches


I'd like to agree with you, Sub, but every corner you turn nowadays some cunt is trying to sell you an inside-out, cheese and ham sarniie, calling it a fucking Croque Monsieur, and adding a fiver.

This is a massively clear win for Brexiteers who wanted streamlined, shackle-free, ability to make their own rules.

Predictably, the EU/remoaners are saying "it's not fair that we've been complete shit... boo hoo. You should help us ... it's the decent thing to do and by the way, we're gonna fuck you up if you don't"

Fuck off


----------



## two sheds (Jan 29, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I'd like to agree with you, Sub, but every corner you turn nowadays some cunt is trying to sell you an inside-out, cheese and ham sarniie, calling it a fucking Croque Monsieur, and adding a fiver.


the places you frequent, possibly


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## wemakeyousoundb (Jan 29, 2021)

so there is NI like a kid in an accrimonious divorce


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## two sheds (Jan 29, 2021)

But wait ...









						EU in U-turn over move to control vaccine exports to Northern Ireland
					

European commission cites ‘error’ hours after proposal caused anger on both sides of Irish border




					www.theguardian.com
				




who says Johnson holds the monopoly on majestic u-turns


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## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2021)

Well after the EU put their foot in it , here's a spokesperson explaining the 'accident' and that the export ban on vaccines   'is not a hostile act against third countries or territories. This is the mechanism of transparency the EU needs to ensure a particular pharmaceutical company honours its commitment.”
A mechanism of transparency that in reality omits  the UK, Russia , USA, Canada and for some reason  Australia from a list of countries that are exempted from tighter export restrictions on vaccines produced in the EU, which includes not only the AZ but the  Pfiser vaccine


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## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Well after the EU put their foot in it , here's a spokesperson explaining the 'accident' and that the export ban on vaccines   'is not a hostile act against third countries or territories. This is the mechanism of transparency the EU needs to ensure a particular pharmaceutical company honours its commitment.”
> A mechanism of transparency that in reality omits  the UK, Russia , USA, Canada and for some reason  Australia from a list of countries that are exempted from tighter export restrictions on vaccines produced in the EU, which includes not only the AZ but the  Pfiser vaccine




'A particular pharmaceutical company' ...so then why the catch-all restrictions?

Nice to know it's not just our government that can't string two thoughts together in a straight line. Well, not nice but you know.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Life comes at you fast


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## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

two sheds said:


> the places you frequent, possibly


I've never been offered a Croque Monsieur in Simpsons, tbf.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 30, 2021)

I don't even know who he is


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> 'A particular pharmaceutical company' ...so then why the catch-all restrictions?
> 
> Nice to know it's not just our government that can't string two thoughts together in a straight line. Well, not nice but you know.



I read somewhere that the export ban works on application to export, investigation of requested export which includes a look at the past three months books. and permission/refusal within 48 hours. Its possible that that process might allow exemption and in others might give evidence of previous exports. Seems a bit long winded and a scattergun approach if they are gunning for one company though.


----------



## gosub (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Well after the EU put their foot in it , here's a spokesperson explaining the 'accident' and that the export ban on vaccines   'is not a hostile act against third countries or territories. This is the mechanism of transparency the EU needs to ensure a particular pharmaceutical company honours its commitment.”
> A mechanism of transparency that in reality omits  the UK, Russia , USA, Canada and for some reason  Australia from a list of countries that are exempted from tighter export restrictions on vaccines produced in the EU, which includes not only the AZ but the  Pfiser vaccine




A fucking "accident",  quite a telling accident,  thats about as non hostile as Russian interest in cathedrals


----------



## Rushy (Jan 30, 2021)

Interesting article.









						'We had to go it alone': how the UK got ahead in the Covid vaccine race
					

Early partnership between Oxford and AstraZeneca, plus upfront funding, proved vital headstart




					www.theguardian.com
				






_



			The Oxford scientists began meeting weekly, and by late March, Oxford scientists realised they needed a pharmaceutical giant to manufacture the vast quantities of vaccine required. The initial choice of partner was the US company Merck.

However, the prospective deal collapsed. The UK was desperate to secure enough supply for its own citizens – and at the time, ministers including the health secretary, Matt Hancock, were concerned. Not about the EU – but about the behaviour of the then-US president, Donald Trump.

“We were worried about vaccine nationalism – but the person we feared was Trump, that he would be able to pressurise a US company, and perhaps buy up the drug stocks,” said a former adviser at the Department of Health. “We never expected there would be a row with the EU.”

The British government wanted written guarantees of supply from Merck, but the company was only prepared to give verbal one , the adviser said. The deal fell through.
		
Click to expand...






			With Brexit looming, the UK drew huge criticism for declining to join EU schemes to purchase PPE and ventilators. There was also growing pressure to join a joint EU procurement plan for vaccines, and to put aside the Brexit rhetoric.

But Brussels’ demands were eye-watering: the UK, unlike EU member states, would not be able to take part in the governance of the scheme, including the steering group or the negotiating team.

Britain would have no say in what vaccines to procure, at what price or in what quantity, and for what delivery schedule. There would be no side-deals possible.
		
Click to expand...






			The governments of Germany, Italy, France and the Netherlands had privately decided they could not wait on Brussels finding common agreement among the 27 on a strategy – and they spotted the potential in AstraZeneca from the start.

The so-called “inclusive alliance” group drafted a one-page set of terms for a deal for between 300m and 400m doses of the Oxford/AstraZeneca jab. But other EU member states were getting restive, concerned that they were being left out.

The four governments passed on the negotiation to the commission “for the common good”, recalled Prof Walter Ricciardi, an adviser to the Italian government on its coronavirus strategy.

“We opened the door for the commission to take over but even then it took time, even when we tried to speed up the process,” Ricciardi said. “There were some countries fully aware of the importance of the vaccine but there were others that were reluctant to put money into this without guarantees of the result. That took time and the best possible energy of the commission. They did recruit the best possible officers to do that but it was a long process”.

It was another three months before the commission finally signed the deal, behind the UK, with some serious ramifications to come.
		
Click to expand...






			The EU had spent just €1.78bn in “risk money”, cash handed to pharmaceutical companies without any guarantee of a return, compared to €1.9bn by the UK [7 x per head of population] and €9bn by the US, he said. There were consequences.
		
Click to expand...

_


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

I wouldn't go as far a Banging the Bishop but someone needs to give him a clip round the ear about his understanding of EU history


----------



## gosub (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've never been offered a Croque Monsieur in Simpsons, tbf.


why would you their only real diversification route is via the gravy, and theres no point coz most the people who eat there would still have the roast beef


----------



## weltweit (Jan 30, 2021)

I saw an debate including one of the members of the UK NHS vaccine taskforce which was empowered to buy up vaccines in advance of knowing which would make it through approvals. They were very matter of fact, determining which projects looked most likely to succeed and placing large orders with them without delay.

They were a small group of perhaps 4 experts, tasked with securing vaccines for the UK, and seemingly with no budget restrictions. It seems they did a good job.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> why would you their only real diversification route is via the gravy ...


I doubt our good friend friedaweed would agree. 

They got shorted a fair bit of cutlery, fluffy towels, menus, and posh soap, last time we graced their doors


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

ADVANCE PURCHASE AGREEMENT (“APA”) FOR THE PRODUCTION, PURCHASE AND SUPPLY OF A COVID-19 VACCINE IN THE EUROPEAN UNION
					






					fragdenstaat.de


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

weltweit said:


> I saw an debate including one of the members of the UK NHS vaccine taskforce which was empowered to buy up vaccines in advance of knowing which would make it through approvals. They were very matter of fact, determining which projects looked most likely to succeed and placing large orders with them without delay.
> 
> They were a small group of perhaps 4 experts, tasked with securing vaccines for the UK, and seemingly with no budget restrictions. It seems they did a good job.


Yes, respect is due.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I wouldn't go as far a Banging the Bishop but someone needs to give him a clip round the ear about his understanding of EU history
> 
> View attachment 252003



Yet another thick cunt from Eton.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

The whole debacle throws into sharp relief the issues with democracy  and the EU (which will only worsen as the project snowballs).


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

In terms of the EU power hierarchy.  
Who had the authority to tell Ursula to wind her neck in? The Times reports it as Barnier "the EU's top negotiator ".


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

I reckon it was Ursula herself, after getting urged on by Macron over a few zoom drinks.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

Probably cherry brandy out of the handy mini bar. I bet her head hurts this morning.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I reckon it was Ursula herself, after getting urged on by Macron over a few zoom drinks.



They do appear to have been hitting the _sherberts _a bit hard. 

Macron slagging off the AZ vaccine and then demanding more of it - proper Trumpian, coke fuelled fuckwittery.

I'm looking forward to the cunt choking on it.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I voted remain, by a hair's breadth, but this is an object lesson as to why LEAVE was the correct choice.
> 
> "Ooh ooh, I cant travel to Europe" .... yes you can. You just have a few moe hoops to jump through. But the EU might try to make your life harder
> 
> ...


Same here.  I also voted remain but this is the final nail in that coffin as far as I’m concerned.  I’m happy to distance myself politically and administratively as far from the EU as possible.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 252007
> 
> 
> View attachment 252005
> ...



The best part of this is that one of the redacted bits states that releasing the unredacted contract constitutes a breach of the contract.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

World Heath Organisation wades in









						Coronavirus: WHO criticises EU over vaccine export controls
					

"Vaccine nationalism" risks causing a "protracted recovery", the head of the world health body warns.



					www.bbc.com


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 30, 2021)

As a remain voter in 2016, this week has been an eye opener.

'We are but one in 27' until a nation-state doesn't get what they want and chucks their toys out of the pram. 

Straight cunt's move. A pox on them.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

Markus Söder, the Bavarian premier and Germany's possible future chancellor, told ZDF television on Friday that it was his impression that the commission "ordered too late, and only bet on a few companies, they agreed on a price in a typically bureaucratic EU procedure and completely underestimated the fundamental importance of the situation".


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?


The EU project mask has slipped off, again. 
This weeks events have shown the inherent lack of democracy and the power disparities between members.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?


I think both. What do you think of events in the last week?


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think both. What do you think of events in the last week?


I’m depressed by it all tbh. Worried about how all this will impact the tone of the future relationship between Uk & eu. Also shocked  that U vd L had the power all by herself to do a massively stupid thing like she did, really did not know that was possible. Hasn’t changed my broader view though, it’s not a love affair it’s a trading block.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?



The EU has spent the last five years honking off about being a values-based organisation that has Ireland at the heart of its union, and that keeping the border not a border has been the fundamental tenet of its approach to Brexit.

A month later it throws Ireland under the bus at 8pm on a Friday night because the EC has fucked its vaccine purchase and the Irish government finds out about it on twitter.

I don't have a problem with naked power games because that it what nation states are for, but I do have a problem with crowing hypocrisy about values, solidarity, and peace and then unhesitatingly shit-canning the lot of it because VDL can't read a contract that she wrote, and looks really stupid.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?


What sudden realisation ? Some of us have been banging on about the true nature issue since before the referendum. Its not only possible to be critical of and  hold both the UK government and the EU to account, its essential. The current and  relatively successful roll out of the vaccine in the UK is something to be celebrated but it doesn't excuse the their disastrous handling of covid 19 overall.


----------



## eatmorecheese (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?



A pox on both their houses, one doesn't follow the other. See kebabking post above.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Hasn’t changed my broader view though, it’s not a love affair it’s a trading block.


If it was just a trading block like the EEA once was I would not have voted leave.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What sudden realisation ? Some of us have been banging on about the true nature issue since before the referendum. Its not only possible to be critical of and  hold both the UK government and the EU to account, its essential. The current and  relatively successful roll out of the vaccine in the UK is something to be celebrated but it doesn't excuse the their disastrous handling of covid 19 overall.


Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Markus Söder, the Bavarian premier and Germany's possible future chancellor, told ZDF television on Friday that it was his impression that the commission "ordered too late, and only bet on a few companies, they agreed on a price in a typically bureaucratic EU procedure and completely underestimated the fundamental importance of the situation".



Interesting interview on World at One on, I think, Thursday. It made the point that individual Euro member states have lots of expertise independently negotiating multi billion purchase contracts but the negotiating was centralised in the interests of The Project and Brussels does not have the same experience. For all the talk earlier of the EU lawyers running rings around pharma cos, it seems they possibly just lacked experience.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?


Emergency procurement arrangements. Same as the EU. Normally any contract of ten thousand quid get a lengthy tender process inc some transparency.  
The pandemic, due to its immediate nature meant allowable divergence from the normal process.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> On an unrelated note, how come the contracts signed by the government to buy stuff with our money are not in the public domain as a normal thing?


It's so much easier to be corrupt when you can hide the evidence


----------



## kabbes (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.


No, events over the last 4 years have been changing my mind.  As I said, this is just the final nail in the coffin.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 30, 2021)

Rushy said:


> Interesting interview on World at One on, I think, Thursday. It made the point that individual Euro member states have lots of expertise independently negotiating multi billion purchase contracts but the negotiating was centralised in the interests of The Project and Brussels does not have the same experience. For all the talk earlier of the EU lawyers running rings around pharma cos, it seems they possibly just lacked experience.


The EU seems to be arguing that their decision to prioritise 27 state unity over agility and speed should not put them at any disadvantage when it comes to contractual outcomes. It does look remarkably like wanting to have your cake and eat it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Some interesting snippets in the Portuguese media. This is from RTP which is the equivalent of the BBC. If the text doesn't flow its not because of their English its because I have to use google translate.

Firstly it seems that the original intention of the EU was that all vaccines would be produced in the EU  





> the European Commission had imposed as a contractual condition that all vaccines to be purchased were produced in European territory (in the case of AstraZeneca and in the contract signed on August 28, 2020, Brexit was still being negotiated, producers were admitted on British soil) and reserved for their own citizens.



Secondly  despite the apparent new found need for transparency RTP points out that



> European citizens have not been informed of the actual price of each dose of the vaccine, which varies by pharmaceutical company





> . Most Member States decided to inoculate their population free of charge, which seems to shelve questions.In contracts, this information is hidden. The European Commission's explanation is simple. " At this stage, the specific price per dose is still subject to confidentiality obligations "



The third interesting bit is that of liability which seems to contradict Anju   assertion that the EU have managed to negotiate contracts which hold vaccine manufacturers to account for future problems and that any claims against them have to be defended and if lost compensated from their own pockets. 



> Another possible controversy concerns who assumes the payment of damages to the affected people in case something goes wrong .
> 
> In both contracts, with AstraZeneca and CureVac, this responsibility is assumed by each Member State , as read, respectively, in Article 14.1 and Article 1.23.3., In which the pharmaceutical companies and “all their affiliates ”And subcontractors, in a long list, should be“ deemed exempt ”from any claims, including“ death, physical, emotional or mental injuries, illness, disability ”, loss of assets and income or legal costs.
> 
> These conditions are supposed to replicate in other contracts such as, for example, with Pfizer-Biontech. Only, nobody knows. They may be even more favorable to pharmaceutical companies.



RTP also pose the question of the lack of transparency regarding compensation   





> Something that is also unknown is the compensation demanded by pharmaceutical companies in case of possible non-compliance by the European Commission, a Member State or any other State.



There's also a link to an interesting article in a left wing Argentinian paper ( again you'll need translate )   Leoninas - Brecha  . That article suggests:



> Handwashing again appears with regard to possible adverse effects after vaccination, as well as the company's legal strategy for not complying with the promised deliveries: although the distribution of doses is weekly, the EU states will not be able to complain if weekly the quantities shipped are below those previously agreed upon. Claims may only be submitted based on Pfizer submission at the end of the quarter, March 31st. If by then the company delivered fewer doses than ordered, there will be several options: Pfizer will be able to return the money corresponding to the missing doses; The parties may terminate the contract, and, only as a last option, the European authorities may request, then yes, that the company be sanctioned.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Markus Söder, the Bavarian premier and Germany's possible future chancellor, told ZDF television on Friday that it was his impression that the commission "ordered too late, and only bet on a few companies, they agreed on a price in a typically bureaucratic EU procedure and completely underestimated the fundamental importance of the situation".


see my post earlier re the EU procurement strategy , again the absence of a parliament or chamber where MEPS can hold the EU to account means that EU citizens can only  do this through there own national government . As the EU mostly curry favour with national govts by giving them key  positions for six months this seems unlikely if those politicians want those positions..


----------



## mauvais (Jan 30, 2021)

I can't say this episode has changed my mind. You can't render a grossly stupid endeavour somehow less stupid just by pointing at some other incompetence. It's only revelatory if you thought the EU was virtuous and competent, and who did? 

The UK happened to get one thing right but literally everything else wrong, so anything that suggests we are better off alone - independent from whoever - is built on pretty shaky ground at this point.


----------



## steeplejack (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I wouldn't go as far a Banging the Bishop but someone needs to give him a clip round the ear about his understanding of EU history
> 
> View attachment 252003



He’s utterly insufferable. Religious obscurantists should have no role whatever in public life.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

There's been an average of more than a thousand deaths reported each day this month. About half the deaths from air raids and other enemy action in the UK in the whole of the second world war. I think being distracted from our government's shameful actions that have led to this by another organisation's arsery is itself shameful.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> He’s utterly insufferable. Religious obscurantists should have no role whatever in public life.


Being clipped round the ear?


----------



## Anju (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> All you posts are worded well Anju, appearance though  isn't the problem.  Re liability the EU offering AZ partial liability was the reason the price was low


 
US and UK offer full protection for liability under existing legislation so don't think EU offering less protection would lead to lower price.


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t get all these posts about sudden realisations about the true nature of the EU after their gargantuan fuckups re the vaccine. I mean, do you also no longer think our government are a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns just because they seem to have done a decent job on the vaccine rollout?



You can certainly recognise the true nature of the EU while also regarding the UK government as a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns, and I can't see that anyone here has changed their opinion on the latter recently.

But what's been particularly noticeable to me on this thread are the attempts by some of those still seeking to argue a Remain position to defend the EU in this and still argue that it's the UK government who are in the wrong.

It appears that nothing the EU can do will bring some people to criticize it, which is really quite telling.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 30, 2021)

FBPE Twitter currently resembles Stockholm Syndrome victims when the captors start chopping them up to leverage their ransom demands..... delicious


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> You can certainly recognise the true nature of the EU while also regarding the UK government as a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns, and I can't see that anyone here has changed their opinion on the latter recently.
> 
> But what's been particularly noticeable to me on this thread are the attempts by some of those still seeking to argue a Remain position to defend the EU in this and still argue that it's the UK government who are in the wrong.
> 
> It appears that nothing the EU can do will bring some people to criticize it, which is really quite telling.



I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.


It's interesting that the ec was not in line with the eu member states, notably not consulting Ireland. I suspect this could cue a period of backtracking by Brussels if other member states are uncomfortable with the commission's behaviour and maybe rebalancing the relationship between them. But it will be interesting to find out if eg Merkel or macron suggested they'd support the action.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's interesting that the ec was not in line with the eu member states, notably not consulting Ireland. I suspect this could cue a period of backtracking by Brussels if other member states are uncomfortable with the commission's behaviour and maybe rebalancing the relationship between them. But it will be interesting to find out if eg Merkel or macron suggested they'd support the action.



I'd be willing to bet Merkel and Macron were consulted first though, unlike Michael Martin.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I haven't seen much in the way of overt support for the EU's actions on here but elsewhere on the internet there's all sorts of deeply embarrassing remainer bootlickery going on. Not that the we told you so stuff from leavers has been much more palatable.



There has. And it feels, after this week, about as convincing as the EU commissions professed concern for Ireland/the British border in Ireland. There is a pile of shit from the swivel eyed end of the leaver market too it’s true. But, for the softer end of the remain spectrum there is the unmistakable sound of illusions shattering.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'd be willing to bet Merkel and Macron were consulted first though, unlike Michael Martin.



100%.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 30, 2021)

This definitely looks like a massive fuck-up on the part of the EU - if they'd deliberately tried to rally the British people behind their terrible government, they couldn't have done much better.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Anju said:


> US and UK offer full protection for liability under existing legislation so don't think EU offering less protection would lead to lower price.



That would be an ecumenical matter

Reuters: 


> European governments will pay claims above an agreed limit against AstraZeneca over side-effects from its potential COVID-19 vaccine, under different terms to a deal struck with Sanofi, an EU official told Reuters.
> “If a company asks for a higher price we don’t give the same conditions,” said the official, who was involved in the talks but declined to be identified as the contracts are confidential.



Politico:



> The Commission was willing to compromise, by covering some of the legal bills and damages to drugmakers if unexpected problems emerged. But hashing out those terms dragged out the process, and in the end, each agreement was bespoke. For companies that agreed to sell vaccines at cost, the so-called indemnity protections were fairly generous. Those seeking a profit would have to fend more for themselves.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2021)

i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
ive read the articles, none the wiser

has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
> ive read the articles, none the wiser
> 
> has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?



The British vaccination schedule is unchanged and currently ahead of EU countries. Same with the death rate.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
> ive read the articles, none the wiser
> 
> has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?



No, and that net gain of zero vaccines has cost the EU leadership a fuckton of credibility. Lucky for Ursula von der Leyen there seems to be no means, democratic or otherwise, to get rid of her.


----------



## gosub (Jan 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> You can certainly recognise the true nature of the EU while also regarding the UK government as a bunch of incompetent mendacious clowns, and I can't see that anyone here has changed their opinion on the latter recently.
> 
> But what's been particularly noticeable to me on this thread are the attempts by some of those still seeking to argue a Remain position to defend the EU in this and still argue that it's the UK government who are in the wrong.
> 
> It appears that nothing the EU can do will bring some people to criticize it, which is really quite telling.



Seeing that more on FB than here tbh, I think it is such a sweet spot that a lot of my more ardent remain(d)er friends are completely rabbit in the headlights.


It wasn't an area where the EU had particular experience, leapt on the back of some of their more experienced but impatient front runners and swamped their position.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 30, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> This definitely looks like a massive fuck-up on the part of the EU - if they'd deliberately tried to rally the British people behind their terrible government, they couldn't have done much better.



True. But if Johnson and chums think this means that there will be a loss of collective memory over their handling of the pandemic then they are in for a shock. It just means a significant increase in the number of us who recognise that the _both _the EU and HMG are the common enemy


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> True. But if Johnson and chums think this means that there will be a loss of collective memory over their handling of the pandemic then they are in for a shock. It just means a significant increase in the number of us who recognise that the _both _the EU and HMG are the common enemy



Indeed. This story will soon blow over, one way or another. The pandemic won't. Nor will brexit, which may look like a moral victory today but will definitely not be an economic one on the time scale of now until the next election.


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, and that net gain of zero vaccines has cost the EU leadership a fuckton of credibility. Lucky for Ursula von der Leyen there seems to be no means, democratic or otherwise, to get rid of her.


I wonder if she's had her vaccination yet...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> I wonder if she's had her vaccination yet...



She's an essential worker. Despite every appearance to the contrary.

I've not really followed how vaccination has been going in the EU27 countries tbh. I know half the French don't even want it.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
> ive read the articles, none the wiser
> 
> has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?



Oh come on Ska I'm sure you understand some of it .


----------



## andysays (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's an essential worker. Despite every appearance to the contrary.
> 
> I've not really followed how vaccination has been going in the EU27 countries tbh. I know half the French don't even want it.


That makes the assassination with a syringe containing just air trick a bit more difficult then...


----------



## gosub (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> No, and that net gain of zero vaccines has cost the EU leadership a fuckton of credibility. Lucky for Ursula von der Leyen there seems to be no means, democratic or otherwise, to get rid of her.



Technically EUropean Parliament CAN remove entire Commission. Its not going to (yet)


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 30, 2021)

gosub said:


> Technically EUropean Parliament CAN remove entire Commission. Its not going to (yet)



I hope popcorn imports remain unaffected.


----------



## stdP (Jan 30, 2021)

Colour me in the remoaniac category - as much as it is pretty shambolic, I still think the UK would have been better offin the EU than out of it, and jumping out of the EU frying pan in to the malingering fiery incompetence of the tories will be a net loss for the people of the UK, mostly because of the severe economic ramifications and inevitable erosion of living standards. But...



Yossarian said:


> This definitely looks like a massive fuck-up on the part of the EU - if they'd deliberately tried to rally the British people behind their terrible government, they couldn't have done much better.



...I certainly can't disagree with this. TBH I think it's gone down like a cup of cold puke in many circles; most of my european friends (mostly all ambivalent to the EU as well) have had the same reaction - it comes across as petty blame-throwing to scapegoat their own inadequacies. Perhaps a tactic they've recently perfected from Boris and co, but a childish squabbling tactic at best. A pox on both their houses.

I certainly don't given any credit for the UK's handling of the vaccine research and rollout to the government; all of the successes, to my biased brain, seem to be coming from the NHS and the research institutions, all of the gross incompetence and corruption flows forth from the dribbling maw of the government and their rapacious private sector donor chums. If we're going well in anything it's despite the politicians, not because of them.

(I still think the article in Der Spiegel[url] I posted earlier in an nicely critical take on it so I'm going to shamelessly mention it again)


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> She's an essential worker. Despite every appearance to the contrary.
> 
> I've not really followed how vaccination has been going in the EU27 countries tbh. I know half the French don't even want it.


Here's the European figures ( I cant be arsed to cut and paste a table for the EU). The Serbian case is interesting, its got candidate status but not yet full membership although its in the  EEA. It uses the Chinese vaccine


----------



## Artaxerxes (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
> ive read the articles, none the wiser
> 
> has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?



I pretty much checked out of the situation this week until last night because it's fucking meaningless in any real way to me. It's just opaque bollocks and I honestly have no interest in whose right and wrong when it comes to contract law.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Oh come on Ska I'm sure you understand some of it .


genuinely dont 
im amazed you all do


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.


I was always on the fence. I decided how to vote in the polling booth and even then I think the deciding factor was that I just didn't want to vote the same way as people like Farage. Plenty has happened since the referendum to make me question that decision. This is just a massive kick in the same direction. What I don't get is why people, when faced with absolutely crystal clear evidence of out-and-out EU cuntery, insist on performing gymnastics to excuse it.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Here's the European figures ( I cant be arsed to cut and paste a table for the EU). The Serbian case is interesting, its got candidate status but not yet full membership although its in the  EEA. It uses the Chinese vaccine
> 
> View attachment 252055


world beating! Don't et me wrong of course i'm very glad it seems to be going pretty well here. First time in a long timer that i've wished my parents still lived in the UK. They're mid 70s and will be waiting a long time by the looks of things where they are.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i dont understand any of this tbh, total blank
> ive read the articles, none the wiser
> 
> has anything changed as to who is getting vaccinated and when yet?


Your just funnin. Vaccine thread you started is elsewhere.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> world beating! Don't et me wrong of course i'm very glad it seems to be going pretty well here. First time in a long timer that i've wished my parents still lived in the UK. They're mid 70s and will be waiting a long time by the looks of things where they are.


Where are your parents? For me its a choice of waiting in Portugal for it  or waiting for the flight ban between Portual and the UK being lifted and then forking out for covid tests both ways and a stay in a quarantine hotel.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Your just funnin. Vaccine thread you started is elsewhere.


seems like nothing has actually happened, and i dont have a head for business contract clauses.

i am interested if old and vulnerable people within the EU, including many family members, wont be getting the vaccine any time soon, so will try and tune in again when something actually happens. lost one family member last week (aged 60), would like not to lose more.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Where are your parents? For me its a choice of waiting in Portugal for it  or waiting for the flight ban between Portual and the UK being lifted and then forking out for covid tests both ways and a stay in a quarantine hotel.


switzerland, so probably not the EUs fault but they seem to be doing just as shit at it, in between czech and slovakia on your table. Kind of surpising seeing as its so rich and so full of pharma companies.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> seems like nothing has actually happened ...


Seriously?

Fucking hell.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What I don't get is why people, when faced with absolutely crystal clear evidence of out-and-out EU cuntery, insist on performing gymnastics to excuse it.



Because, like most similar projects, it becomes - for the more militant wing - a kind of structure of feeling that even reality can’t dislodge.

We saw it with the more delusional Corbyn fanboys, we saw it with Trump and we saw it, yes, with Vote Leave.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> lost one family member last week (aged 60), would like not to lose more.



Do you think that people in any of the countries likely to be affected by the EU export controls might think the same?


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Do you think that people in any of the countries likely to be affected by the EU export controls might think the same?


It’s interesting which countries they listed as exempt from the export controls and which not. This headline is misleading as hell .








						EU imposes vaccine export controls on rich nations from Saturday
					

‘No other choice but to act,’ says Valdis Dombrovskis.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s interesting which countries they listed as exempt from the export controls and which not. This headline is misleading as hell .


This latest debacle with Ireland is very telling of the EU mentality. A bunch of EU arseholes must have had a meeting about that and decided it was a good idea. They've backtracked heavily but that's another bell that won't be un-rung any time soon.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> seems like nothing has actually happened, and i dont have a head for business contract clauses.
> 
> i am interested if old and vulnerable people within the EU, including many family members, wont be getting the vaccine any time soon, so will try and tune in again when something actually happens. lost one family member last week (aged 60), would like not to lose more.


There are country specific reports for how the vaccination programmes are going on the countries Health service websites that you might find useful rather than relying on here tbh. Each country has its own priorities but most seem to target elderly with some variations( some not doing over 80s , Germany not authorising one vaccine for older people, mainly care homes first  and health care workers.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

I get it, that what happened yesterday and then very quickly unhappened was a really shitty aggressive and deeply embarrassing move on the part of U vd L and whoever else.
Just not that surprised by it and not sure whether it says anything very revealing about what you’re calling “EU mentality”, or is just the kind of stunt that politicians do when they are feeling weak and threatened. Controlling export of vaccines likewise, that’s got to be happening all over the world right now.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Sudden realisations I just meant the recent posts from people saying they voted to remain but events of the last couple of days have changed their mind.


They are just trying to get a reaction. They aren't stupid people so it's implausible that their view has been changed by just one event.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

teuchter said:


> They are just trying to get a reaction. They aren't stupid people so it's implausible that their view has been changed by just one event.


How many events does it usually take to change your opinion on something?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I get it, that what happened yesterday and then very quickly unhappened was a really shitty aggressive and deeply embarrassing move on the part of U vd L and whoever else.
> Just not that surprised by it and not sure whether it says anything very revealing about what you’re calling “EU mentality”, or is just the kind of stunt that politicians do when they are feeling weak and threatened. Controlling export of vaccines likewise, that’s got to be happening all over the world right now.


Crikey! If this was the UK or US governments behaving this way you and others would be screaming blue murder about what a bunch of petty, venal, nasty, cunts they are. But it's the EU so it's just a manifestation of how poor old politicians behave when they're feeling weak and threatened!


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s interesting which countries they listed as exempt from the export controls and which not. This headline is misleading as hell .
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The States may well be included for protectionist reasons There was earlier a quite bitter fight over the States Operation Warpspeed's attempt to get exclusive production for CureVac  a European company in Holland and the States getting the first contract with  BioNTech a German company who collaborate with Pfiser . Australia uses both AZ and Pfiser , most AZ production is through  a sister company based in Australia but it receives some from the European plants , the Pfiser/BionTech vaccine  is exported to Australia.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> seems like nothing has actually happened, and i dont have a head for business contract clauses.
> 
> i am interested if old and vulnerable people within the EU, including many family members, wont be getting the vaccine any time soon, so will try and tune in again when something actually happens. lost one family member last week (aged 60), would like not to lose more.


Like nothing happened at Suez. The EU invoked a clause intended only to be used as a last resort in Ireland, without involving the Irish government. Without (at least officially) consulting any member states. They were ready to risk the gfa. Nothing to you, maybe, but a great deal on an island adjacent to our own


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Like nothing happened at Suez. The EU invoked a clause intended only to be used as a last resort in Ireland, without involving the Irish government. Without (at least officially) consulting any member states. They were ready to risk the gfa. Nothing to you, maybe, but a great deal on an island adjacent to our own


No, no. Move along. Nothing to see here.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I get it, that what happened yesterday and then very quickly unhappened was a really shitty aggressive and deeply embarrassing move on the part of U vd L and whoever else.
> Just not that surprised by it and not sure whether it says anything very revealing about what you’re calling “EU mentality”, or is just the kind of stunt that politicians do when they are feeling weak and threatened.


Politicians are forever trying to distract from their fuck ups. But the way that the EU has chosen to do so in this particular case looks jaw droppingly inappropriate. Or at least seems so to me. As for being revealing, I think they managed  to fight hard for European interests during Brexit negotiations whilst maintaining some impression of balanced, rational fairness. At times their negotiators almost managed to come across as impartial! To be honest, it was not that all that difficult against the shambolic backdrop in the UK. I suspect that what we are seeing is much more representative of the real relationship - in the short term at least.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Like nothing happened at Suez. The EU invoked a clause intended only to be used as a last resort in Ireland, without involving the Irish government. Without (at least officially) consulting any member states. They were ready to risk the gfa. Nothing to you, maybe, but a great deal on an island adjacent to our own



Lets say they followed through with this ... what woudve actually happened? Theyd have erected a hard border?


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Crikey! If this was the UK or US governments behaving this way you and others would be screaming blue murder about what a bunch of petty, venal, nasty, cunts they are. But it's the EU so it's just a manifestation of how poor old politicians behave when they're feeling weak and threatened!


I think you’re just being silly now. Maybe cos you’re a bit embarrassed about how you’ve been carrying on all excited and anthropomorphising as if the EU is an ex girlfriend who turned out to be a big meanie.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Lets say they followed through with this ... what woudve actually happened? Theyd have erected a hard border?


Does the fact that they even considered using a nuclear solution for no other reason than to punish the naughty UK, not bother you?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think you’re just being silly now. Maybe cos you’re a bit embarrassed about how you’ve been carrying on all excited and anthropomorphising as if the EU is an ex girlfriend who turned out to be a big meanie.


Lol


----------



## BlanketAddict (Jan 30, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> I'd be willing to bet Merkel and Macron were consulted first though, unlike Michael Martin.



I thought it was fairly common knowledge that France/Germany _are_ the EU. In the interests of 'the project' and common courtesy the other states are at least usually consulted with regards to decision making. 
Except where the shit is really hitting the fan and the mask slips and you end up with a situation like yesterday. Ireland not even aware never mind consulted!
France and Germany are really suffering right now and I get it, everyone needs those vaccine supplies right now, and it must be infuriating to see massive delivery reductions against what you were promised. 
But this episode has shone a light on the reality of how the EU operates, and that the principal of 27 equal member states is pie in the sky really.


----------



## ska invita (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Does the fact that they even considered using a nuclear solution for no other reason than to punish the naughty UK, not bother you?


Please stop quoting me and asking me stuff - of all the posters on urban i could care less what disingenuous things you think or say. 
Your window of being taken seriously closed years ago.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Please stop quoting me and asking me stuff - of all the posters on urban i could care less what disingenuous things you think or say.
> Your window of being taken seriously closed years ago.


I'll keep doing it to outline your stupidity to others. Best you stick me on ignore.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Crikey! If this was the UK or US governments behaving this way you and others would be screaming blue murder about what a bunch of petty, venal, nasty, cunts they are. But it's the EU so it's just a manifestation of how poor old politicians behave when they're feeling weak and threatened!


Agree, but let's not forget what cunty chops was saying only 2 weeks ago...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Dear dear me ( this was in reply to the Ska/Spymaster spat)


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agree, but let's not forget what cunty chops was saying only 2 weeks ago...
> 
> View attachment 252075


Yeah but some people clearly never expected the supra-state to act like, well, a State, whose interests are (on this issue right now) in direct conflict with a neigbouring State. They seemingly expected the EU to be totally different, all cuddly and mild mannered and reasonable, which has caused them in their astonishment to run around shouting about the evilness of the "EU mentality".


----------



## brogdale (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but some people clearly never expected the supra-state to act like, well, a State, whose interests are (on this issue right now) in direct conflict with a neigbouring State. They seemingly expected the EU to be totally different, all cuddly and mild mannered and reasonable, which has caused them in their astonishment to run around shouting about the evilness of the "EU mentality".


Yep, naive.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think you’re just being silly now. Maybe cos you’re a bit embarrassed about how you’ve been carrying on all excited and anthropomorphising as if the EU is an ex girlfriend who turned out to be a big meanie.


You are determined to not grasp the issues. La de da with fingers in ears.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but some people clearly never expected the supra-state to act like, well, a State, whose interests are (on this issue right now) in direct conflict with a neigbouring State. They seemingly expected the EU to be totally different, all cuddly and mild mannered and reasonable, which has caused them in their astonishment to run around shouting about the evilness of the "EU mentality".


This EU you voted to remain in.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but some people clearly never expected the supra-state to act like, well, a State, whose interests are (on this issue right now) in direct conflict with a neigbouring State. They seemingly expected the EU to be totally different, all cuddly and mild mannered and reasonable, which has caused them in their astonishment to run around shouting about the evilness of the "EU mentality".


Whereas other people, if Ursula VdL blew up an airliner, would put it down to her being a bit stressed out that day.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

Covid vaccines to be recorded in Dublin in compromise deal
					

Doses will be allowed to cross border after international outcry over Brussels’ attempt to block deliveries




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yeah but some people clearly never expected the supra-state to act like, well, a State, whose interests are (on this issue right now) in direct conflict with a neigbouring State. They seemingly expected the EU to be totally different, all cuddly and mild mannered and reasonable, which has caused them in their astonishment to run around shouting about the evilness of the "EU mentality".



Nope, completely missing the point.

The UK and EU are - post Brexit -  now competitors, there's a huge amount of bitterness between them, and both sides can (and should) expect the other to stick the knife in should the need, or just opportunity, arise.

But _Ireland _is not a competitor to the EU, it's a part of the EU, and a part that the EU has repeatedly said is at the _heart_ of the EU, with the non-border border at the front and centre of its decision making process.

It's not the UK that the EU attempted to shaft last night, it's fucking Ireland.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This EU you voted to remain in.


Yes, and would again. Never thought it was a cuddly peace and love club though which is why nothing these last days has changed my view.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Nope, completely missing the point.
> 
> The UK and EU are - post Brexit -  now competitors, there's a huge amount of bitterness between them, and both sides can (and should) expect the other to stick the knife in should the need, or just opportunity, arise.
> 
> ...


Ok I did not get that. I thought it was Northern Ireland that would have been fucked .


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Please stop quoting me and asking me stuff - of all the posters on urban i could care less what disingenuous things you think or say.
> Your window of being taken seriously closed years ago.


Well assume it's me asking the same questions etc.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes, and would again. Never thought it was a cuddly peace and love club though which is why nothing these last days has changed my view.


Just for posterity.


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Just for posterity.


I'm thinking 5 years before its at all clear either way whether better out than in tbh. So feel free to let me know in 2026 how wrong i am.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm thinking 5 years before its at all clear either way whether better out than in tbh. So feel free to let me know in 2026 how wrong i am.


Thankfully we will still be out in five years. You can work it out yourself. If the last weeks events dont sway your view I am sure the EU will show their true colours again soon enough. That plus hindsight might help.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)

Holy Urban, forgive me - for I have sinned...



Not only, Father/Mother/non-binary Urban, did I look upon this depraved _filth_, but I took pleasure in its seedy, unclean words, even though I knew the foul,cloven-hooved source.

Forgive me Urban, for have sinned....


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Thankfully we will still be out in five years. You can work it out yourself. If the last weeks events dont sway your view I am sure the EU will show their true colours again soon enough. That plus hindsight might help.


of course the EU actions might just be part of a cunning plan to nip the rejoin lobby in the bud before it grows into a position of power.


----------



## teuchter (Jan 30, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ok I did not get that. I thought it was Northern Ireland that would have been fucked .


Yes, I think you're right. I just had a look at various Irish newspaper websites. There was hardly anything about the article 16 business in the headlines, other than reporting what Arlene Foster has to say about things.


----------



## Raheem (Jan 30, 2021)

kebabking said:


> It's not the UK that the EU attempted to shaft last night, it's fucking Ireland.


That's not true. Ireland was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Story of its life.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I was always on the fence. I decided how to vote in the polling booth and even then I think the deciding factor was that I just didn't want to vote the same way as people like Farage. Plenty has happened since the referendum to make me question that decision. This is just a massive kick in the same direction. What I don't get is why people, when faced with absolutely crystal clear evidence of out-and-out EU cuntery, insist on performing gymnastics to excuse it.


I think they haven’t managed the vaccine supply thing well at all, are coping flak from it and now are lashing out. The article 16 thing was a bad mistake which they’ve now rectified.
It doesn’t change my mind that we’d be better off in the EU. All the vaccine stuff that the UK has done they would still have been able to do.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Nope, completely missing the point.
> 
> The UK and EU are - post Brexit -  now competitors, there's a huge amount of bitterness between them, and both sides can (and should) expect the other to stick the knife in should the need, or just opportunity, arise.
> 
> ...



But nothing _actually happened! _


----------



## bimble (Jan 30, 2021)

Raheem said:


> That's not true. Ireland was just in the wrong place at the wrong time. Story of its life.


reminds of this which raised a subdued small lol when i saw it. (she is a lawyer)


----------



## philosophical (Jan 30, 2021)

Is it appropriate to differentiate in terms of 'hard' or 'soft' border?
Even though the physical nature of borders can be different all around the world, and they are controlled, or managed, or monitored, or enforced in different ways according to where they are, surely the essence is something like 'they are over there doing things the way they do, but those others are over there doing things the way they do them and between them there is something usually known as a border'.
Before the referendum, on one of the more contraversial borders on the planet, things had come to pass that caused that 'over there/over here' border thing to be hardly noticeable, hardly a difference on either side.
The referendum vote which tellingly included the word 'leave' changed the circumstances.
My brother living in Shannon thought the change would lead to what he would call a 'turn a blind eye' situation with regard to the over there/over here thing. The trouble is that within a month of the 'deal' the absurdity and fragility of border arrangements were exposed.
It may not be over the vaccine, but I feel that some time in the future the absurdity and fragility of the border arrangements brought about by the 'deal' and the Northern Ireland protocol will arise over something else.
The challenge for those who voted leave remains the same as it ever was. What does leave mean in terms of the border between two different systems?
My brother in Shannon is beginning to realise that an informal 'turn a blind eye' situation is not sustainable in the long term.
This very afternoon Gove is going on about working with those in Northern Ireland to deal with the problems they have identified. I wonder why those problems weren't sorted out before anything called a 'deal'. Arlene Foster still thinks there are problems despite the deal made by the party that bribed her for her party's support under Theresa May.


----------



## kabbes (Jan 30, 2021)

Thinking about it, the lasting impact for me of this most recent turd on top of four years of EU nonsense is not really about pleasure or remorse in the leave/remain outcome.  It’s simply that if I am ever asked if I want to rejoin, there’s not a snowballs chance in hell of me saying yes.  Pragmatically speaking, I’ve seen the practical reality of how they treat both their members and their former members now wanting a different kind of relationship, and I’d be as wary of returning to that fold as I would be of rejoining an employer or reforming a friendship that had fucked me over in the past.  But more so because quitting or ghosting is easy whereas Brexiting is a grade A nightmare.  Best just to stay out and not risk  it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2021)

BlanketAddict said:


> I thought it was fairly common knowledge that France/Germany _are_ the EU. In the interests of 'the project' and common courtesy the other states are at least usually consulted with regards to decision making.
> Except where the shit is really hitting the fan and the mask slips and you end up with a situation like yesterday. Ireland not even aware never mind consulted!
> France and Germany are really suffering right now and I get it, everyone needs those vaccine supplies right now, and it must be infuriating to see massive delivery reductions against what you were promised.
> But this episode has shone a light on the reality of how the EU operates, and that the principal of 27 equal member states is pie in the sky really.



And there was another member that was on an equal footing power-wise who has now fucked off leaving the rest of them to the mercies of Germany & France. No wonder the Dutch are bitter as hell about it.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2021)

As an aside to the latest shitshow, how come Germany hasn’t developed a vaccine? They have a huge pharmaceutical industry and a great university system, if Oxford was on it from day one, where was Heidelberg?


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As an aside to the latest shitshow, how come Germany hasn’t developed a vaccine? They have a huge pharmaceutical industry and a great university system, if Oxford was on it from day one, where was Heidelberg?


BioNTech is German.


----------



## Supine (Jan 30, 2021)

There are 150+ drugs that it is illegal to export from the UK at the moment. Just to put the EU action on vaccines into perspective.









						List of medicines that cannot be exported from the UK or hoarded - GOV.UK
					






					assets.publishing.service.gov.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

I think CureVac who are based in Holland have a German connection .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> BioNTech is German.



So what’s all the fuss about if they are making their own one?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> There are 150+ drugs that it is illegal to export from the UK at the moment. Just to put the EU action on vaccines into perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ketamine and MDMA exports are still fine, it seems 😎


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So what’s all the fuss about if they are making their own one?



Mucho dollar. The AZ is both vastly cheaper to buy and to rollout.

To be fair, there was quite a bit of squabbling within the _Union of Peace and Harmony _about giving all the money to a German company. They all wanted a peice of the pie.

They have, simply, just been really unlucky - but they set themselves up to be in a really bad place if they were unlucky.

Expect the word _subsidiarity _to make a big reappearance...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So what’s all the fuss about if they are making their own one?


They didn’t buy enough of that vaccine ,partly due to the fact that that company supplies other countries and there’s a capacity issue which has already surfaced but also due ,  quite rightly , that they wanted to have a larger number of suppliers in their portfolio . They struck a large deal with AZ wanting to use their weight for a cost effective option , insisted on EU production sites but there have been capacity  issues at that company as well . As I’ve said before they’ve come late to the table and put their eggs in one basket . Unless their hard stance reaps some results I expect there will be pressure from mire states to go outside the EU procurement strategy ( Germany and others have already done this )


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2021)

Supine said:


> There are 150+ drugs that it is illegal to export from the UK at the moment. Just to put the EU action on vaccines into perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What perspective is that ?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Jan 30, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Pragmatically speaking, I’ve seen the practical reality of how they treat both their members and their former members now wanting a different kind of relationship, and I’d be as wary of returning to that fold as I would be of rejoining an employer or reforming a friendship that had fucked me over in the past.



They have quite clearly fucked this up but I see no reason for celebration or  'yay we won' sentimentality about being better off given we're  governed by a party that voted to be able to break international law and a home secretary that suggested starving Ireland into submission recently to name just two examples of many fucked decisions and attitudes that we are gonna be subjected to for a long time yet.


----------



## TopCat (Jan 31, 2021)

Damn that cunt Macron and his ignorant,  arrogant speech on Friday. His comments about the limited efficiency of the Oxford vaccine have scared my parents (who have had this jab) hugely. They are now really anxious. They take the cunt seriously because of his role. The cunt.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jan 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Damn that cunt Macron and his ignorant,  arrogant speech on Friday. His comments about the limited efficiency of the Oxford vaccine have scared my parents (who have had this jab) hugely. They are now really anxious. They take the cunt seriously because of his role. The cunt.



Aye, in a swamp of cunts he stands out as a massive one.

My dad has had it as well, to be fair he thinks Macron is a cunt as well, so hasn’t paid much notice. But telling elderly people that their vaccine is shit - for nationalist political gain - really is a new low for the slimy shitstain.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Damn that cunt Macron and his ignorant,  arrogant speech on Friday. His comments about the limited efficiency of the Oxford vaccine have scared my parents (who have had this jab) hugely. They are now really anxious. They take the cunt seriously because of his role. The cunt.


Tell your folk to read the scientists data. Macron's just a puffed-up little shitball whose own medicines agency has effectively just told him that he's talking shit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What perspective is that ?


Well , he said talking to himself, these restrictions were placed  initially in March 2020 ,  doesn't affect those with a license to be exported,  most European Countries did the same and weren't part of a 'transparency' campaign against a pharmaceutical company .


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2021)

You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Even the Guardian has waded in now









						The Observer view on the vaccine dispute with Brussels | Observer editorial
					

Making a scapegoat of Britain can’t disguise the EU’s shambolic response to Covid-19 vaccine acquisition




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You don't need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows. Even the Guardian has waded in now
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Fair play to the Guardian for that.


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fair play to the Guardian for that.


All the EU bum-lickers' heads are spinning now


----------



## SpookyFrank (Jan 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Damn that cunt Macron and his ignorant,  arrogant speech on Friday. His comments about the limited efficiency of the Oxford vaccine have scared my parents (who have had this jab) hugely. They are now really anxious. They take the cunt seriously because of his role. The cunt.



Macron has to bully children into taking him seriously, ergo he's not a serious person.


----------



## Rushy (Jan 31, 2021)

It will be interesting to see how this plays out  in the Scottish independence "debate".


----------



## moochedit (Jan 31, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Tell your folk to read the scientists data. Marcon's just a puffed-up little shitball whose own medicines agency has effectively just told him that he's talking shit.



I'm sure it has nothing whatsoever to do with the french vaccine failing it's trials recently


----------



## Supine (Jan 31, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> All the EU bum-lickers' heads are spinning now



It's perfectly possible to be pro European and to think they have done a shocking job on the vaccines front.


----------



## brogdale (Jan 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> It's perfectly possible to be pro European and to think they have done a shocking job on the vaccines front.


Yeah, but it's perfectly possible to be _pro European _(WTFTM) and think the supra-state is a stinking edifice.


----------



## gosub (Jan 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> It's perfectly possible to be pro European and to think they have done a shocking job on the vaccines front.


Is a bit like the lot who say their communist and then say how the countries that had periods under communist regime weren't actually communist


----------



## Spymaster (Jan 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> It's perfectly possible to be pro European and to think they have done a shocking job on the vaccines front.


So you think this is just about their vaccine job?


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> As an aside to the latest shitshow, how come Germany hasn’t developed a vaccine? They have a huge pharmaceutical industry and a great university system, if Oxford was on it from day one, where was Heidelberg?



German scientists won the vaccine race, but I think that may have been overshadowed a little by Donald Trump claiming the Pfizer/BioNTech was the product of American know-how and "Operation Warp Speed."


----------



## gosub (Jan 31, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> German scientists won the vaccine race, but I think that may have been overshadowed a little by Donald Trump claiming the Pfizer/BioNTech was the product of American know-how and "Operation Warp Speed."


By the time Trump left office, the US were administering 900,000 vaccines a day. As much as Trump is slagged off, Biden is pushing it to 1million vaccinations a day whilst admitting it will have little impact on US trajectory.  iirc the lead Scientist at Pfizer is a Turk working in Germany of all the relevancy that has.


----------



## Flavour (Jan 31, 2021)

The negative here is how much the tory media will use it to drum up support for this murderous government. The UK may have the moral high ground with the EU over the vaccine in this case, but the UK government have still been #worldbeating bad in covid response over all and that cannot, must not be overshadowed by flicking Vs for Victory at Ursula Von the Wigan


----------



## teuchter (Jan 31, 2021)

I had to stand in a supermarket queue watching the person in front of me buy this earlier today.


----------



## gosub (Jan 31, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The negative here is how much the tory media will use it to drum up support for this murderous government. The UK may have the moral high ground with the EU over the vaccine in this case, but the UK government have still been #worldbeating bad in covid response over all and that cannot, must not be overshadowed by flicking Vs for Victory at Ursula Von the Wigan



But that just adds to fucked offness at EU's sense of entitlement for demanding UK vaccine. 
If and when they end up with UK supply they can fucking reimburse @UK prices too


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2021)

Some good news , AZ  have now said they will deliver  the company will also expand manufacturing capacity in Europe. an additional 9 million doses in the first quarter and will start deliveries a week earlier. The company will also expand manufacturing capacity in Europe.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

'The best advert for Brexit': European press reacts to EU Covid vaccine row
					

Continental newspapers give harsh verdicts on the European commission’s actions




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Some good news , AZ  have now said they will deliver  the company will also expand manufacturing capacity in Europe. an additional 9 million doses in the first quarter and will start deliveries a week earlier. The company will also expand manufacturing capacity in Europe.


Is this news completely unconnected with the tantrum thrown by U vd L and co and the threat last night of legal action against the company ? Would AZ have changed their tune and found a way to fulfil their order without all that drama? Who knows.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is this news completely unconnected with the tantrum thrown by U vd L and co and the threat last night of legal action against the company ? Would AZ have changed their tune and found a way to fulfil their order without all that drama? Who knows.


Its connected to the order the EU put in. The EU dont have a leg to stand on re suing anyone unless they change their law retrospectively.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Its connected to the order the EU put in. The EU dont have a leg to stand on re suing anyone unless they change their law retrospectively.


 but its 9 million more doses than they were told they could have last week ,  was just wondering how come. If throwing a tantrum got then 9 million extra vaccine doses at the cost of looking really stupid for a day then arguably thats a result. idk.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is this news completely unconnected with the tantrum thrown by U vd L and co and the threat last night of legal action against the company ? Would AZ have changed their tune and found a way to fulfil their order without all that drama? Who knows.


You don’t think there might have been a better, more efficient and also less politically damaging way for the EU to achieve the goal of getting 50% of its initial target rather than 40% in return for allowing its own capacity to be used in future to send vaccines in the opposite direction?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is this news completely unconnected with the tantrum thrown by U vd L and co and the threat last night of legal action against the company ? Would AZ have changed their tune and found a way to fulfil their order without all that drama? Who knows.



Given that AZ have pulled an absolute blinder in getting their vaccine developed and into production, and that they are a serious company who know that being able to produce the goods is the way to a profitable future, and that setting up production lines is not something you can do in panicked phone calls over a weekend, I think they would probably have done this without the efforts of a bunch of howling shit-monkeys who have been shown - in one day - to be utterly fucking useless at both contract law _and _international diplomacy.

I mean, that's just my take....


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You don’t think there might have been a better, more efficient and also less politically damaging way for the EU to achieve the goal of getting 50% of its initial target rather than 40% in return for allowing its own capacity to be used in future to send vaccines in the opposite direction?


Yes, I am not suggesting they've played a brilliant 4d chess move or anything, the whole debacle has only added to the ways in which the EU's vaccine efforts look really bad, just surprised that AZ needed any pressure to do its best effort, reasonable or not.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes, I am not suggesting they've played a brilliant 4d chess move or anything, the whole debacle has only added to the ways in which the EU's vaccine efforts look really bad, just surprised that AZ needed any pressure to do its best effort, reasonable or not.


Why do you think they needed pressure?  What makes you think the EU might not even have got a _better_ result without turning it into brinkmanship?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> but its 9 million more doses than they were told they could have last week ,  was just wondering how come. If throwing a tantrum got then 9 million extra vaccine doses at the cost of looking really stupid for a day then arguably thats a result. idk.


Astra Zenica have scaled up production as they said they would. The EU have not even paid the bill yet.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Why do you think they needed pressure?


Only because last week AZ told the EU they would be unable to send them these 90 million, and today they have promised to do so a week early? Of course they may have just come up with new ideas in the intervening days about how to step up production, unrelated to events. I dont know what your second question means, i need coffee.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

There’s precious little information available about the details, but it looks to me as if this extra nine million now has come at the cost of ceding future EU capacity to Britain.  It’s not just more for nothing.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

Is it wrong that I think it would be hilarious trolling if AZ binned their contract with the EU, sold all the doses to the UK, and HMG then dished them out as development aid to third world countries - like France and Germany?


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Is it wrong that I think it would be hilarious trolling if AZ binned their contract with the EU, sold all the doses to the UK, and HMG then dished them out as development aid to third world countries - like France and Germany?


 When did you find this massive union jack was it in your pocket the whole time ?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> When did you find this massive union jack was it in your pocket the whole time ?


It's taken a couple of days (because of shame) but the remain smears and abuse are back!


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> When did you find this massive union jack was it in your pocket the whole time ?



I keep it for special occasions.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yes, I am not suggesting they've played a brilliant 4d chess move or anything, the whole debacle has only added to the ways in which the EU's vaccine efforts look really bad, just surprised that AZ needed any pressure to do its best effort, reasonable or not.


It’s far more likely that AZ have been pulling out all the stops to supply the product for weeks and months because they actually want to deliver and maintain their reputation, than it is that they’ve just released a shitload of vaccine that they had hidden under the bed and have just released because the EU have been massive cunts for the last 72 hours.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

abuse! smears!


Spymaster said:


> It’s far more likely that AZ have been pulling out all the stops to supply the product for weeks and months because they actually want to deliver and maintain their reputation, than it is that they’ve just released a shitload of vaccine that they had hidden under the bed and have just released because the EU have been massive cunts for the last 72 hours.


Sure, that makes sense. Just means they made an error in their announcement a few days ago telling the EU what their best effort would achieve this quarter.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> View attachment 252234
> 
> I had to stand in a supermarket queue watching the person in front of me buy this earlier today.


You don't have to watch, no-one is forcing you to. I grant sometimes it's hard to watch people doing dastardly things and bite your tongue rather than speak up, but not every battle is worth fighting.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> abuse! smears!
> 
> Sure, that makes sense. Just means they made an error in their announcement a few days ago telling the EU what their best effort would achieve this quarter.


No, it seems that the EU have had to agree to a concession to get this.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 1, 2021)

The EU commission in general (and VDL in particular) have ballsed it up massively and people are understandingly gloating over it. But so what? we've discovered is what we have long suspected, that EU politicians are as self-serving and insensitive bunch as our own shower of shit.
Is this a surprise to anyone? Did we really think we were unlucky enough to be stuck with the world's entire cunt supply?
For all this has shown them up in a bad light, the EU is still neither the Empire of Evil nor The Shining Beacon on the Hill that so many people try and paint it. And still so far all evidence is that of the only 2 alternatives there were ever actually possible we choose the wrong one.


----------



## Supine (Feb 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The EU commission in general (and VDL in particular) have ballsed it up massively and people are understandingly gloating over it. But so what? we've discovered is what we have long suspected, that EU politicians are as self-serving and insensitive bunch as our own shower of shit.
> Is this a surprise to anyone? Did we really think we were unlucky enough to be stuck with the world's entire cunt supply?
> For all this has shown up them in a bad light, the EU is still neither the Empire of Evil nor The Shining Beacon on the Hill that so many people try and paint it. And still so far all evidence is that of the only 2 alternatives there were ever actually possible we choose the wrong one.



agree with this. Not sure why there is so much pro Brexit gloating at the moment. Big mistake s made on the EU's part but also a taste of what its like to be a third country. Id still much prefer a seat at the table, helping to positively influence the EU, rather than being a competitor.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> And still so far all evidence is that of the only 2 alternatives there were ever actually possible we choose the wrong one.


I am glad we chose to leave. Fuck their project.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> No, it seems that the EU have had to agree to a concession to get this.


Haven’t seen anything about that.
there was this though, which looks a lot like wrangling.








						EU holds out for more after AstraZeneca offered 8 million extra COVID-19 shots
					

AstraZeneca offered eight million more doses of its COVID-19 vaccine to the European Union to try to defuse a row over supplies, but the bloc said that was too far short of what was originally promised, an EU official told Reuters.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2021)

We can all, especially here on urban75, be glad that in the end, whatever bickering is going on between governments and their public sector procurement teams, a private corporation has stepped up to the plate and found a solution driven by pragmatism and efficiency. Imagine what a mess we'd be in if all the pharmaceutical production had been natonalised.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The EU commission in general (and VDL in particular) have ballsed it up massively and people are understandingly gloating over it. But so what? we've discovered is what we have long suspected, that EU politicians are as self-serving and insensitive bunch as our own shower of shit.
> Is this a surprise to anyone? Did we really think we were unlucky enough to be stuck with the world's entire cunt supply?



You may have long suspected it, but if you are being honest there is a large segment of the remain vote for whom this has come as something of a shock. That group fully swallowed the constructed narrative of the civilised EU and a Blairite, middle class identity of 'paint a rainbow' values. In their minds eye, the "European Union" was a land to escape from “ghastly" provincial England. These events, as you suggest, have revealed a rather different reality.

Just like the segment of leave supporters who have illusions about an inevitable return to a ‘Great Britain’ around imagined homogeneous values too much of the debate has been based on fantasy


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> We can all, especially here on urban75, be glad that in the end, whatever bickering is going on between governments and their public sector procurement teams, a private corporation has stepped up to the plate and found a solution driven by pragmatism and efficiency.


so you did get a ppe contract


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Haven’t seen anything about that.
> there was this though, which looks a lot like wrangling.
> 
> 
> ...


I got it from here:









						COVID-19: AstraZeneca set to supply nine million more coronavirus vaccine doses to EU after row over shortages
					

The extra jabs will come in the first three months of 2021, making a total of 40 million doses for that period, says an EU chief.




					news.sky.com
				






> Speaking to German television, Ms Von der Leyen said she had agreed with Prime Minister *Boris Johnson* that vaccine factories in the UK and Europe would deliver doses to each region.


So the UK factories will deliver to the EU but the reciprocal arrangement is also true.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I got it from here:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uk factories will deliver to the EU now or at some point in the future?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Uk factories will deliver to the EU now or at some point in the future?



As factories and supply chains in Europe will deliver into the UK...


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> As factories and supply chains in Europe will deliver into the UK...


All very vague isn’t it.
I’m interested what it means, is UK produced Astra Z Vaccine going to be exported to EU now or at some unspecified future time? Seems unlikely EU’s failing factories are going to be shipping vaccine to us tomorrow  morning but maybe.

But sorry do carry on, don’t want to interrupt  the big brass band celebrating the vanquishing of our enemies in your head.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2021)

According to this article the Irish prime minister does not see the EU article 16 mess-up as a hostile move, is ok with how it was dealt with, and thinks much of the blame is with AZ.

That'll be a disappointment for those here who are so keen to get one over on the EU that they are now siding with the big pharma corp.









						COVID-19: Irish PM says EU was 'blindsided' by 'nasty' vaccine row and Brexit border arrangement became 'collateral damage'
					

Micheal Martin urged all parties to now work together "to make sure something like this doesn't happen again".




					news.sky.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> According to this article the Irish prime minister does not see the EU article 16 mess-up as a hostile move, is ok with how it was dealt with, and thinks much of the blame is with AZ.
> 
> That'll be a disappointment for those here who are so keen to get one over on the EU that they are now siding with the big pharma corp.
> 
> ...


hwstwh


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> According to this article the Irish prime minister does not see the EU article 16 mess-up as a hostile move, is ok with how it was dealt with, and thinks much of the blame is with AZ.
> 
> That'll be a disappointment for those here who are so keen to get one over on the EU that they are now siding with the big pharma corp.
> 
> ...



Interestingly that's not what he was saying at the weekend, nor what his Foreign Minister was saying at the weekend.

It's called _diplomacy. _


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> All very vague isn’t it.
> I’m interested what it means, is UK produced Astra Z Vaccine going to be exported to EU now or at some unspecified future time? Seems unlikely EU’s failing factories are going to be shipping vaccine to us tomorrow  morning but maybe.
> 
> But sorry do carry on, don’t want to interrupt  the big brass band celebrating the vanquishing of our enemies in your head.



You need to stop thinking about 'the vaccine', and think about 'all the different things that go into making a vaccine'.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> According to this article the Irish prime minister does not see the EU article 16 mess-up as a hostile move, is ok with how it was dealt with, and thinks much of the blame is with AZ.


Who can blame him? The overlords have just shown him the type of hand they're capable of playing. Poor bloke's probably shitting himself and has jumped straight back into line.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The EU commission in general (and VDL in particular) have ballsed it up massively and people are understandingly gloating over it. But so what? we've discovered is what we have long suspected, that EU politicians are as self-serving and insensitive bunch as our own shower of shit.
> Is this a surprise to anyone? Did we really think we were unlucky enough to be stuck with the world's entire cunt supply?
> For all this has shown them up in a bad light, the EU is still neither the Empire of Evil nor The Shining Beacon on the Hill that so many people try and paint it. And still so far all evidence is that of the only 2 alternatives there were ever actually possible we choose the wrong one.






TopCat said:


> I am glad we chose to leave. Fuck their project.



Its great we left the horrors of the incompetent monkey pit for the safety of the deranged lion pen.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Interestingly that's not what he was saying at the weekend, nor what his Foreign Minister was saying at the weekend.


Looks like Michael's had his arse kicked over the weekend.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Looks like Michael's had his arse kicked over the weekend.



More 'understands where his bread is buttered'. The row isn't helpful to Ireland, what matters to Ireland is getting the vaccine, there being no border fuss, and the EU structures and personalities being educated about quite how dangerous and damaging this idiocy was. Those things are better achieved behind closed doors, with them understanding quite how angry and appalled Ireland is by this idiocy, but without public shouting.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> All very vague isn’t it.
> I’m interested what it means, is UK produced Astra Z Vaccine going to be exported to EU now or at some unspecified future time? Seems unlikely EU’s failing factories are going to be shipping vaccine to us tomorrow  morning but maybe.
> 
> But sorry do carry on, don’t want to interrupt  the big brass band celebrating the vanquishing of our enemies in your head.


At some time in the future.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Interestingly that's not what he was saying at the weekend, nor what his Foreign Minister was saying at the weekend.
> 
> It's called _diplomacy. _


Yup, there's been an effort by all sides to try and de-escalate last weeks tantrum.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)




----------



## gosub (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>




Way to row back from a row where you've made the DUP look reasonable.


----------



## Supine (Feb 1, 2021)

Saying you made a mistake is refreshing. Can't wait to see Johnson do that about his multiple fuck ups


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)

Phillip Hammond has done an interview and he's not shy of kicking everyone in it.









						Brexit Witness Archive | UK in a changing Europe
					






					ukandeu.ac.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Phillip Hammond has done an interview and he's not shy of kicking everyone in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my first thought when i saw that was who the fuck is philip hammond, my second was what a change from when he did kids' tv on bbc1


----------



## ska invita (Feb 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Phillip Hammond has done an interview and he's not shy of kicking everyone in it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


my first thought was who the fuck too
my second was:


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)




----------



## Rushy (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>



Singling out the leader of the Catholic church as the only infallible individual on the planet seems like another remarkably ill considered move for a Western politician.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

Rushy said:


> Singling out the leader of the Catholic church as the only infallible individual on the planet seems like another remarkably ill considered move for a Western politician.


his infallibility limited to issues of theology and this notion anyway only proposed in the nineteenth century


----------



## gosub (Feb 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> his infallibility limited to issues of theology and this notion anyway only proposed in the nineteenth century



presumably the spokesman for the EUropean Commission 'accidently' forgot that caveat


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2021)

Von Harrach appears wildly unfamiliar with the infallibility of Johnson's entire cabinet.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2021)

So all those Merc driving farmy cunts who plastered their fields with _VoteLeave _banners now expect us to bail them out of the inevitable shitshow.





> How much of the current trauma is temporary remains to be seen, but that is not an issue. Leaving the customs union – not to mention other features of the single market – was an ideological whim. The victims of this whim manifestly deserve compensation every bit as much as those suffering from lockdown: both are bearing a crippling personal cost for a benefit, real or supposed, to the nation as a whole. In the case of Brexit, the damage is plainly the result of a political decision and its incompetent implementation. It is a massive regulatory failure. As ministers claim the decision to leave the customs union is greatly to the benefit of all, then all should pay its losers.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> Is this news completely unconnected with the tantrum thrown by U vd L and co and the threat last night of legal action against the company ? Would AZ have changed their tune and found a way to fulfil their order without all that drama? Who knows.



Given that legal action would take years to be resolved and the vaccines are required now  probably not , the threat of legal action is for the crowds. I welcome the increase but its still %)% down on the initial estimated delivery. The other good news is that without any threats of legal action BioNTech/ Pfizer will deliver 75 million of additional doses in the second quarter of the year - and up to 600 millions in total in 2021.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

Rushy said:


> Singling out the leader of the Catholic church as the only infallible individual on the planet seems like another remarkably ill considered move for a Western politician.


Especially given his history as a child rape apologist.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Given that legal action would take years to be resolved and the vaccines are required now  probably not , the threat of legal action is for the crowds.


At the current rate of knots, AZD1222 won't maintain efficacy for "years".


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

2hats said:


> At the current rate of knots, AZD1222 won't maintain efficacy for "years".


months on a good day


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

So I went to buy something off music gear site Thomann.de. I've now absolutely no idea how much extra I'd have to pay so I'll just give up. FUCK BREXIT



> All EU based retailers sending parcels to the UK now have to fill out customs declaration forms and customers may also have to pay customs or VAT (Value Added Tax) charges, depending on the value of the products and the destination of the order.
> 
> As it is customary with all our customers from outside of the EU, we provide VAT free prices online and any additional customs charges are the responsibility of the customer.
> 
> ...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> So I went to buy something off music gear site Thomann.de. I've now absolutely no idea how much extra I'd have to pay so I'll just give up. FUCK BREXIT


Yep, I've told son & heir to look after the Behringer Amplifier he got from them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> So I went to buy something off music gear site Thomann.de. I've now absolutely no idea how much extra I'd have to pay so I'll just give up. FUCK BREXIT



If the stuff you want costs more than £135 you will pay 20% VAT to the courier company plus their charge of 2.5% or £11.50, whichever is the greater. The price you pay to the retailer will be less German VAT, currently 19%.

hth


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If the stuff you want costs more than £135 you will pay 20% VAT to the courier company plus their charge of 2.5% or £11.50, whichever is the greater. The price you pay to the retailer will be less German VAT, currently 19%.
> 
> hth


And is this just a random eight quid for orders below that amount?

"Orders on or below 135,00 GBP will incur a 8,00 GBP shipping fee. Please note, this is paid to Thomann and is not related to the fees paid to the courier."

Brexit: pointlessly complicating things and confusing consumers while charging them more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And is this just a random eight quid for orders below that amount?
> 
> "Orders on or below 135,00 GBP will incur a 8,00 GBP shipping fee. Please note, this is paid to Thomann and is not related to the fees paid to the courier. "


sounds like it's to do with the paperwork


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> And is this just a random eight quid for orders below that amount?
> 
> "Orders on or below 135,00 GBP will incur a 8,00 GBP shipping fee. Please note, this is paid to Thomann and is not related to the fees paid to the courier."
> 
> Brexit: pointlessly complicating things and confusing consumers while charging them more.



That says it is the shipping fee, which is part of the cost to ship the stuff, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That says it is the shipping fee, which is part of the cost to ship the stuff, no?


so where's the courier come in? i'd have thought that money paid to the delivery people (the courier) would count as shipping, so i think the shipping fee is the fee for dealing with the brexit paperwork related to shipping


----------



## TopCat (Feb 1, 2021)

Pretty straightforward.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so where's the courier come in? i'd have thought that money paid to the delivery people (the courier) would count as shipping, so i think the shipping fee is the fee for dealing with the brexit paperwork related to shipping



Yeah, for smaller purchases they seem to charge a fee to cover their time in arranging the courier etc. Fairly standard, in the U.K. these charges get bundled under P&P.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, for smaller purchases they seem to charge a fee to cover their time in arranging the courier etc. Fairly standard, in the U.K. these charges get bundled under P&P.


Funny how it was so much easier in the past - pre-Brexit - with no swathes of text to trawl through to get the price. And no additional fees.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yep, I've told son & heir to look after the Behringer Amplifier he got from them.


I wouldn't worry too much. Hopefully your son can understand pretty simple instructions!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Funny how it was so much easier in the past - pre-Brexit - with no swathes of text to trawl through to get the price. And no additional fees.



Not sure this £8 has anything to do with Brexit, if you ask them to ship to Sweden they charge SEK99 shipping on all orders under SEK2099, which mirrors the £8 for orders under £135 for the U.K.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so where's the courier come in? i'd have thought that money paid to the delivery people (the courier) would count as shipping, so i think the shipping fee is the fee for dealing with the brexit paperwork related to shipping



Exactly I just got charged  nearly £100 in import fees including £88.46 in "government charges" and £11.50 in "brokerage charges"  Is this what we going to have to expect anytime we buy something from outside the UK even when the website promised "free delivery".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

Shipping to Italy is €15 on all orders under €199, so higher costs than to the UK.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

€20 to ship to Portugal, more than double the cost of the fee to the UK.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Exactly I just got charged  nearly £100 in import fees including £88.46 in "government charges" and £11.50 in "brokerage charges"  Is this what we going to have to expect anytime we buy something from outside the UK even when the website promised "free delivery".
> 
> View attachment 252359



You can't reject it and get your money back?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Shipping to Italy is €15 on all orders under €199, so higher costs than to the UK.



Your not factoring in vat fees to the UK.

Of course the fun will be when the EU roll out similar vat fees in a few months time.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Your not factoring in vat fees to the UK.
> 
> Of course the fun will be when the EU roll out similar vat fees in a few months time.




UK VAT is 20%, you deduct the German 19% VAT and add in the UK's 20%, unless the value is below £135 in which case you pay the German VAT and not the UK VAT.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Shipping to Italy is €15 on all orders under €199, so higher costs than to the UK.


The cost on top of the basic price to the UK seems to be £8 plus minimum £11.50 (no maximum defined!) plus 2.5% which on £100 would be £2.50 and I make that £22 minimum which is more than €15.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

What exactly is it that people are buying from overseas instead of UK stores?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2021)

Bratwurst - it's all bratwurst


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Bratwurst - it's all bratwurst


They’re all bratwurst by the time I’m done with ’em


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What exactly is it that people are buying from overseas instead of UK stores?



Thomann is a music shop selling a vast range of instruments and audio stuff, much of it cheaper than anywhere in the UK and with free UK delivery.

E2a: They also stock some instruments you just can't get in the UK.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What exactly is it that people are buying from overseas instead of UK stores?



In my case nicer chocolate, teas. Shops I got Xmas presents from are no longer delivering to the UK.

The European shops and some Asian shops for everyday cooking stuff also suffering a bit from stock issues with this. 

I'm not expecting HEMA shop which sells cheapish goods and is based in Europe to do well from this. I'm not sure how Lidl and Aldi work but would imagine this will affect there supply chain.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Exactly I just got charged  nearly £100 in import fees including £88.46 in "government charges" and £11.50 in "brokerage charges"  Is this what we going to have to expect anytime we buy something from outside the UK even when the website promised "free delivery".
> 
> View attachment 252359



Seems like 'government charges' is mostly VAT so you're not being shafted all that badly. What was the retail price?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> ... much of it cheaper than anywhere in the UK and with free UK delivery.



Not any more


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

teuchter said:


> The cost on top of the basic price to the UK seems to be £8 plus minimum £11.50 (no maximum defined!) plus 2.5% which on £100 would be £2.50 and I make that £22 minimum which is more than €15.



The £11.50 is on orders over £135 which doesn’t attract the £8 fee.

The thing to take from all this is that we should be buying locally and not demanding crap is dragged all over the planet, if we still want to have a planet to inhabit.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Your not factoring in vat fees to the UK.
> 
> Of course the fun will be when the EU roll out similar vat fees in a few months time.


Here is the EU guidance


			https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/sites/taxation/files/e-commerce-uk-factsheet.pdf


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The thing to take from all this is that we should be buying locally and not demanding crap is dragged all over the planet, if we still want to have a planet to inhabit.


Ah, the moral high ground. So are all your electronics locally sourced then?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 1, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Seems like 'government charges' is mostly VAT so you're not being shafted all that badly. What was the retail price?



Not sure about that. It does say VAT zero on that bill.  The retail price for the coat was £300.  I have to point out that I am not in the habit of spending that sort of money from websites whereever they may be based it was a special Christmas treat partly funded with a present from my Mum. I had been looking forward to getting this winter coat for a long time so I paid the charges and put it down as a bad experience on the price.  I have asked the Canadian supplier for a full refund of all the import charges. Brexit hurt me.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Ah, the moral high ground. So are all your electronics locally sourced then?



A large number are made abroad of course, but I haven’t bought any from a retailer in another country, which I hope clears up whatever point it is you are trying to make here.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Not sure about that. It does say VAT zero on that bill.  The retail price for the coat was £300.  I have to point out that I am not in the habit of spending that sort of money from websites whereever they may be based it was a special Christmas treat partly funded with a present from my Mum. I had been looking forward to getting this winter coat for a long time so I paid the charges and put it down as a bad experience on the price.  I have asked the Canadian supplier for a full refund of all the import charges. Brexit hurt me.




Hold on, you bought a coat from Canada and you’re blaming the import charges on Brexit?


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Hold on, you bought a coat from Canada and you’re blaming the import charges on Brexit?



Yes because it was shipped via Frankfurt and Cologne and UPS (the courier) explicitly said that the delays on the parcel and (presumably) the unexpected charges were due to Brexit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Yes because it was shipped via Frankfurt and Cologne and UPS (the courier) explicitly said that the delays on the parcel and (presumably) the unexpected charges were due to Brexit.



UPS explicitly said that the charges were due to Brexit?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> €20 to ship to Portugal, more than double the cost of the fee to the UK.


Pre Brexit I bought 8  packets  of Openshaw Pork scratchings from Amazon UK  and the postage/delivery to Portugal was a much as the scratchings


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pre Brexit I bought 8  packets  of Openshaw Pork scratchings from Amazon UK  and the postage/delivery to Portugal was a much as the scratchings



You could probably get a Ryanair round trip for less.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You could probably get a Ryanair round trip for less.


When I came back to the UK last November I bought some Snaffling Pig pork scrachings back with me on the flight. They were rank. Better off paying the postage for the real mcoy


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> When I came back to the UK last November I bought some Snaffling Pig pork scrachings back with me on the flight. They were rank. Better off paying the postage for the real mcoy



Probably won’t be able to legally bring them in to Portugal any more, you’ll need to plug ‘em.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 1, 2021)

This is what the supplier of my coat said:


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Probably won’t be able to legally bring them in to Portugal any more, you’ll need to plug ‘em.


I've never seen SEF stop anyone at Faro airport  in the non EU customs exit.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A large number are made abroad of course, but I haven’t bought any from a retailer in another country, which I hope clears up whatever point it is you are trying to make here.


I'm failing to see much of a difference to be honest, seeing as electronic goods often filter  though multiple distribution European centres, and UK companies often just ship stuff in from Europe and forward it to you. But if these are the lengths you need to go to excuse the obvious added inconvenience of buying goods from Europe, post -Brexit, so be it.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> This is what the supplier of my coat said:
> 
> View attachment 252368



That's the delay not the charges. If you import a £300 coat from Canada of course you're going to pay duty!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> This is what the supplier of my coat said:
> 
> View attachment 252368



Doesn’t say anything at all about the costs. If you import items from Canada they will be subject to import duty and VAT, if they go via UPS they will always transit Cologne as that is their hub, it is customs bonded though so it will never enter or leave the EU, it will be a straight Canada to U.K. transaction. Was this at the very start of January by any chance?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

I don’t think I’m as... global... as some of you folks. It wouldn’t cross my mind to order a coat from the other side of the world.  I can barely be bothered to go to Dorking to get new pants.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm failing to see much of a difference to be honest, seeing as electronic goods often filter  though multiple distribution European centres, and UK companies often just ship stuff in from Europe and forward it to you. But if these are the lengths you need to go to excuse the obvious added inconvenience of buying goods from Europe, post -Brexit, so be it.



Obvious and added inconvenience? Having to read a few paragraphs of text and you throw your toys out of the pram. Sounds like you just wanted to have a moan about Brexit and thought this would be a good point upon which to have it.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I don’t think I’m as... global... as some of you folks. It wouldn’t cross my mind to order a coat from the other side of the world.  I can barely be bothered to go to Dorking to get new pants.


If you haven't made any money since March 2020 and you could - or rather _could have _- saved a fair few quid from buying from a German site, then it's worth the effort.

*typo corrected


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> If you haven't made any money since March 2021 and you could - or rather _could have _- saved a fair few quid from buying from a German site, then it's worth the effort.


Did you mean March 2020 ?


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Having to read a few paragraphs of text and you throw your toys out of the pram


I see the hyperbole express is roaring through this thread.

This is a discussion about the impact of Brexit. I just gave an illustration of something that has changed for the worse.  And it's not like the press isn't full of similar stories right now.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 1, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's the delay not the charges. If you import a £300 coat from Canada of course you're going to pay duty!



This is *NOT* normal and it is Brexit related.  According to this thread there is a good chance that Arc'teryx will refund.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

I had an import duty invoice the other day via DHL. Bought something on the internet from India. Just paid it without trying to fathom it, was expecting something like it, but when you do make a half arsed attempt to learn how it all works on the government’s website, this is what you get.

Not brilliant.

I did click the link but passed out from boredom and bamboozlement within seconds.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> I see the hyperbole express is roaring through this thread.



It sure is...



editor said:


> Funny how it was so much easier in the past - pre-Brexit - with no *swathes of text to trawl through to get the price.
> *


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> I had an import duty invoice the other day via DHL. Bought something on the internet from India. Just paid it without trying to fathom it, was expecting something like it, but when you do make a half arsed attempt to learn how it all works on the government’s website, this is what you get.
> View attachment 252374
> Not brilliant.
> 
> I did click the link but passed out from boredom and bamboozlemewithin seconds.



Fuck me, so now we have coats from Canada and widgets from India both attracting duty and this somehow down to Brexit.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> This is *NOT* normal and it is Brexit related.  According to this thread there is a good chance that Arc'teryx will refund.



Where did they buy it from and how much did it cost?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fuck me, so now we have coats from Canada and widgets from India both attracting duty and this somehow down to Brexit.



Dunno - I've not really been following all this but weren't we previously importing into the EU where there's an agreement while now we're importing into Britain where there's (yet) no agreement?


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fuck me, so now we have coats from Canada and widgets from India both attracting duty and this somehow down to Brexit.


No I know there’s always been duty on stuff like this! Just thought Gov website fuckup was bleakly funny.
If the page on something this currently important (import duties from abroad) is Out Of Date due to brexit, you fix it.
And I don’t buy widgets.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Dunno - I've not really been following all this but weren't we previously importing into the EU where there's an agreement while now we're importing into Britain where there's (yet) no agreement?



Weren’t we previously importing in to the EU? Importing what? toblerone3 bought a coat from Canada and was charged VAT and import duty on it, this has been standard for ever and has nothing to do with the EU or Brexit. Ironically the U.K. is looking to join a trading bloc of which Canada is a member, so this issue may soon be a thing of the past.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> No I know there’s always been duty on stuff like this! Just thought Gov website fuckup was bleakly funny.
> If the page on something this currently important (import duties from abroad) is Out Of Date due to brexit, you fix it.
> And I don’t buy widgets.



They had fixed it, there’s a link in that page you quoted which takes you to the new rules.


----------



## bimble (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They had fixed it, there’s a link in that page you quoted which takes you to the new rules.


No, if they’d fixed their website, it wouldn’t say Due to brexit this page is out of date. But carry on, you seem happy.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 1, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> This is *NOT* normal and it is Brexit related.  According to this thread there is a good chance that Arc'teryx will refund.




"Noone can predict what the import charge will be"

That's actually insane


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It sure is...


Oh, allow me to show you the whole page. And then perhaps you could apologise for your backfiring snarkiness. 




> *Now to the serious part*
> When the UK was part of the European Union’s customs union and single market, goods could move freely between the country and member states without customs duties or other fees being charged. However, as of 01.01.2021 the two distinct markets no longer share the same regulatory and legal space. Now all orders between the two markets have to be processed and cleared by the local customs authorities and all goods entering the country have to be declared.
> 
> *Post Brexit costs*
> ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

bimble said:


> No, if they’d fixed their website, it wouldn’t say Due to brexit this page is out of date. But carry on, you seem happy.




This is from _your post...

_

That's the link to the new rules. But yeah Brexit.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 1, 2021)

Things like the 'Canadian' coat probably got shipped to some EU fulfilment centre en-masse with someone paying the duty for that transaction, and then dispatched from there without further charges. If so, that model no longer works, and if anyone continues to bother supplying this way, everything will be more expensive.

My shoes bought from a UK website and supplied from a Belgian distribution centre eventually turned up after 12 days stuck in Essex.

FWIW, I bought a new phone and that came with headphones. They were made in Vietnam and have a _manufacturing _date of about five days before they arrived.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, allow me to show you the whole page. and then perhaps you could apologise for your backfiring snarkiness.



"When the UK was part of the European Union’s customs union and single market, goods could move freely between the country and member states without customs duties or other fees being charged."

I said that  

That's what I said 

I did


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, allow me to show you the whole page. and then perhaps you could apologise for your backfiring snarkiness.




If that's too much for you to read then there's not much hope for you. I even helpfully explained the costs to you, no thanks from you at all for that, which frankly is a bit rude.


----------



## editor (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If that's too much for you to read then there's not much hope for you. I even helpfully explained the costs to you, no thanks from you at all for that, which frankly is a bit rude.


I wanted to buy a fucking product, not read a 1,100+ word document in which even the retailer can't fully explain how it's going to work.  In fact, it suggests I go off and consult "the courier or the customs authorities locally."


> Don’t forget that this is indicative information based on the feedback we have received so far as not every order has the same customs requirements. For further information we advise that you check the costs and procedures in advance with the courier or the customs authorities locally.



Got to love the way way that in your mind I'm at fault here.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 1, 2021)

editor said:


> I wanted to buy a fucking product, not read a 1,100+ word document in which even the retailer can't fully explain how it's going to work.  In fact, it suggests I go off and consult "the courier or the customs authorities locally."
> 
> 
> Got to love the way way that in your mind I'm at fault here.



Who else other than you is at fault for you not being arsed to read it and failing to educate yourself as to how the system now works?

And again, when a kind hearted soul does explain it to you did you thank him in any way at all? Did you fuck. So on that note I shall bid you good day.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 1, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Who else other than you is at fault for you not being arsed to read it and failing to educate yourself as to how the system now works?



Too right. I'm sure you read every word of all the Microsoft and other website agreements people have glibly agreed to over the years. I certainly have


----------



## kabbes (Feb 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Too right. I'm sure you read every word of all the Microsoft and other website agreements people have glibly agreed to over the years. I certainly have


Never read them.  That’s how Bill Gates plants tracking software into your eyeballs.


----------



## gosub (Feb 1, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> so where's the courier come in? i'd have thought that money paid to the delivery people (the courier) would count as shipping, so i think the shipping fee is the fee for dealing with the brexit paperwork related to shipping


The big change is basically tax insurance, nothing moves til the tax on it is guaranteed, and the whole logistics industry underestimated how much liquidity that meant having and are building as they go


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 2, 2021)

Apparently it was  all  Dombrovskis's fault




> European Commission





> President Ursula von der Leyen sought to deflect the blame for a humiliating U-turn over vaccine export controls, saying that one of her deputies had been responsible for the controversial regulation.
> The commission sparked outrage in the U.K. and Ireland on Friday when it released proposals for controls on shipments of vaccines from the EU into Northern Ireland, undermining its own commitment during Brexit negotiations to keeping the Irish border open. The plan was abruptly dropped hours later.
> 
> “What I can tell you is that there is one cabinet which was lead on this, that is Executive Vice President Valdis Dombrovskis because he is in charge of trade,” the commission’s chief spokesman Eric Mamer told reporters in Brussels on Monday. “This regulation falls under the responsibility of Mr. Dombrovskis and his cabinet and of course the services of the commission which respond to him.”


Bloomberg


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Apparently it was  all  Dombrovskis's fault
> 
> https://www.bloomberg.com/quote/0629846D:BB
> Bloomberg


So despite  fact that UVdL herself unquestionably stated that AZ’s commitment to ‘best reasonable efforts’ applied only to the development phase ‘in the past’ she’s now looking to chuck a minion under the bus. So much for admitting mistakes. Dear oh dear.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 2, 2021)

__





						Northern Ireland suspends Brexit checks amid safety fears for port staff | Northern Ireland | The Guardian
					

Decision came after council withdrew 12 staff at Larne following reports of ‘menacing behaviour’




					amp.theguardian.com
				






> A spokesman for Stormont’s Department of Agriculture, Environment and Rural Affairs (Daera) said: “On the basis of information received today and pending further discussions with the PSNI [Police Service of Northern Ireland], Daera has decided in the interests of the wellbeing of staff to temporarily suspend physical inspections of products of animal origin at Larne and Belfast


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 2, 2021)

"a minor number of teething problems"


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> "a minor number of teething problems"



British fresh air sells for more than its weight in gold in Europe


----------



## Louis MacNeice (Feb 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> British fresh air sells for more than its weight in gold in Europe



That's because it is the 'fresh air of freedom' obviously!

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> British fresh air sells for more than its weight in gold in Europe



I could beleive that tbh. France smells pretty bad.


----------



## bimble (Feb 2, 2021)

It’s going brilliantly, anyone who says it’s not just hates Britain, and Freedom,








						Fifteen-Hour Brexit Wait Prompts Freight Firms to Avoid U.K.
					

Truckers are trying to avoid the U.K. as Brexit red tape keeps them waiting to get to the continent.




					www.bloomberg.com


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

editor said:


> I see the hyperbole express is roaring through this thread.
> 
> This is a discussion about the impact of Brexit. I just gave an illustration of something that has changed for the worse.  And it's not like the press isn't full of similar stories right now.


Any comment on the events of the last week? Here's a clue, the effects are bigger than a bit of duty.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

_Project here _not well received by some as NI border staff withdrawn for their own safety after "Loyalist paramilitary" threats and graffiti:



> Brexit checks on animal and food products arriving into Belfast and Larne ports have been suspended amid fears over the safety of staff, Northern Ireland’s agriculture ministry has said.
> 
> The decision came after Mid and East Antrim borough council agreed on Monday night to remove 12 of its staff at Larne port with immediate effect, following an “upsurge in sinister and menacing behaviour in recent weeks”.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> It’s going brilliantly, anyone who says it’s not just hates Britain, and Freedom,
> 
> 
> 
> ...



All we had to do was remain tied to a failed superstate for ever and we could have avoided some delays at the border as new system beds in. Anyone who disagrees is Nick Griffin..

I assume you’ll be pointing out these inevitable border issues to the Scots Bimble and urging them to vote to remain in the UK?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

Covid has definitely delayed imports from abroad. I ordered two hundred quids worth of electronics from Aliexpress in Nov 2020 and they arrived yesterday. Marked as worth $7.00 and no duty requested or paid.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

A good time to smuggle hash into NI. Costs 50% more over the water.


----------



## bimble (Feb 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All we had to do was remain tied to a failed superstate for ever and we could have avoided some delays at the border as new system beds in. Anyone who disagrees is Nick Griffin..
> 
> I assume you’ll be pointing out these inevitable border issues to the Scots Bimble and urging them to vote to remain in the UK?



Just out of curiosity, let’s imagine say it’s 2026 or 2030, is there any measure or circumstance which would make you think that leaving was a mistake? I can think of a few things that would convince me I was wrong. You?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

Replace the word _leaving _with _staying, _and could you answer such a hypothetical?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Project here _not well received by some as NI border staff withdrawn for their own safety after "Loyalist paramilitary" threats and graffiti:
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 252397














I don't understand why there's a customs office there anyway, i thought government advice was to call Johnson up and he'll throw all paperwork in the bin?


----------



## bimble (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Replace the word _leaving _with _staying, _and could you answer such a hypothetical?


Yes that’s what I mean, I can think of a few scenarios in which I’d be convinced I was wrong & it’s a good thing we left. For instance a government in UK doing good things that EU rules would have prevented, or the EU declaring war on China, or I don’t know, can imagine quite a few. Even just things not getting significantly worse here in a range of ways social & economic, by 2030, compared to neighbouring countries, would convince me I think.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 2, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> All we had to do was remain tied to a failed superstate for ever and we could have avoided some delays at the border as new system beds in. Anyone who disagrees is Nick Griffin..
> 
> I assume you’ll be pointing out these inevitable border issues to the Scots Bimble and urging them to vote to remain in the UK?


no-one is going to pretend that the EU does not have problems but by what criteria do you define it as failed?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just out of curiosity, let’s imagine say it’s 2026 or 2030, is there any measure or circumstance which would make you think that leaving was a mistake? I can think of a few things that would convince me I was wrong. You?


Missing out the intervening years


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> no-one is going to pretend that the EU does not have problems but by what criteria do you define it as failed?








						Failed state - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




"A state can also fail if the government loses its legitimacy even if it is performing its functions properly."

I know, wikipedia, but still, the point is that ''failed'' relates not just to capability but also legitimacy. As an essentially _un_democratic entity the EU will always lack the legitimacy of a ruling body elected by and accountable to its citizens.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just out of curiosity, let’s imagine say it’s 2026 or 2030, is there any measure or circumstance which would make you think that leaving was a mistake? I can think of a few things that would convince me I was wrong. You?



Now we’ve got the dead drag of the EU off our back the next decade should be committed to getting the dead drag of the Tories off our back and shifting the political economy, as much as is possible, away from the orthodoxy of the last 45 years. In the post covid economy some form of intervention by the state will be inevitable. The question is what form it will take and the extent to which we can mobilise in the workplace and in our communities.

In answer to your question, I can conceive of no circumstances where I’d pine for EU style double liberalism.


----------



## spitfire (Feb 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I don't understand why there's a customs office there anyway, i thought government advice was to call Johnson up and he'll throw all paperwork in the bin?



I tried that, the person who answered the call wouldn't put me through and wouldn't take a message for him to call me back.  He's "busy" apparently.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 2, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Failed state - Wikipedia
> 
> 
> 
> ...


One of the EU's top bureaucrats has clearly got too big for her boots in recent days and now appears to be flailing around trying to cover her arse. Hardly a sign that it has lost legitimacy or it isn't performing its functions correctly.
Your second point is a bit more debatable, Is the EU undemocratic? The European Parliament is directly elected though it seems to be more a talking shop than anything else but a great deal of power still resides with national governments not the EU and they are directly elected.


----------



## bimble (Feb 2, 2021)

That’s nice Smokeandsteam . I’m probably just too pessimistic.  Find it hard to imagine a trajectory for the coming decade here that doesn’t resemble America or Singapore more than it resembles somewhere I’d see as an improvement on what we’ve currently got. I do want to be wrong.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> One of the EU's top bureaucrats has clearly got too big for her boots in recent days and now appears to be flailing around trying to cover her arse. Hardly a sign that it has lost legitimacy or it isn't performing its functions correctly.
> Your second point is a bit more debatable, Is the EU undemocratic? The European Parliament is directly elected though it seems to be more a talking shop than anything else but a great deal of power still resides with national governments not the EU and they are directly elected.


If you haven't already had the chance, would recommend the 3-part Perry Anderson LRB piece(s) linked to in the EU reading thread.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Your second point is a bit more debatable, Is the EU undemocratic? The European Parliament is directly elected though it seems to be more a talking shop than anything else but a great deal of power still resides with national governments not the EU and they are directly elected.



Right, but 27 national governments and ''The EU'' are not at all the same thing. The European Commmission has powers that those governments all together do not have.



MickiQ said:


> One of the EU's top bureaucrats has clearly got too big for her boots in recent days and now appears to be flailing around trying to cover her arse. Hardly a sign that it has lost legitimacy or it isn't performing its functions correctly.



This wasn't where the lack of legitimacy shows tbh - if incompetence makes for an illegitimate government (which is btw an arguable point) then ours is ... well, worse. But this isn't really about competence, it's literally about whether they are elected by and accountable to the people. Our shower of shits were elected (not by me but that's irrelevant) and are technically accountable. I mean, whether they ultimately will allow themselves to be held to account, is again an arguable point, but _technically _they are accountable. The EU Commission is not even _technically _accountable as far as I can tell.

Still, I voted Remain in 2016 and my learning about the EU is still a work in progress.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The European Parliament is directly elected though it seems to be more a talking shop than anything else but a great deal of power still resides with national governments not the EU and they are directly elected.


parliament from parler, to talk. it is therefore no surprise it is a talking shop


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I don't understand why there's a customs office there anyway, i thought government advice was to call Johnson up and he'll throw all paperwork in the bin?


Yep...



and...



> In addition to concerns over graffiti it is understood staff expressed concerns that individuals had been spotted taking down number plate details.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just out of curiosity, let’s imagine say it’s 2026 or 2030, is there any measure or circumstance which would make you think that leaving was a mistake? I can think of a few things that would convince me I was wrong. You?


I would love to know what would cause you to change your mind. If the events of the last week would not change your mind what would? 

For me if the EU reverted to being the EEA I would consider rejoining if it was put to a vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I would love to know what would cause you to change your mind. If the events of the last week would not change your mind what would?
> 
> For me if the EU reverted to being the EEA I would consider rejoining if it was put to a vote.


eec. eea is eu plus friends


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Right, but 27 national governments and ''The EU'' are not at all the same thing. The European Commmission has powers that those governments all together do not have.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A point that Streeck was arguing in his 2017 book _"__Buying Time__" _(based on his Frankfurt lectures of 2012) in which he concluded:


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> If you haven't already had the chance, would recommend the 3-part Perry Anderson LRB piece(s) linked to in the EU reading thread.


I'll read that when I get chance, I'm supposed to be working at the moment


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I'll read that when I get chance, I'm supposed to be working at the moment


They do take some time to read but, based on what you were saying, I'd guess that you'd enjoy them, particularly the 1st 2 pieces. Apols for distracting from yer work!


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

NI protocol unraveling quicker, under Loyalist pressure, than might have been expected?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> NI protocol unraveling quicker, under Loyalist pressure, than might have been expected?



No, I thought it would have unraveled some weeks back


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 2, 2021)

It's not actually started fully yet, there was a grace period for some things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's not actually started fully yet, there was a grace period for some things.


Unraveling and so on I suppose


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It's not actually started fully yet, there was a grace period for some things.


The 3months/6 months thing?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The 3months/6 months thing?


1st April IIRC before proper customs procedures kick in
ETA: Irish Sea border: What will happen once the grace periods end?

Talks with the EU? Good luck with that.
Whats the alternative though here?  What to talk about exactly? What are the DUP proposing?


----------



## editor (Feb 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any comment on the events of the last week? Here's a clue, the effects are bigger than a bit of duty.


Ah, the classic shift of the goalposts. No, I'd like to stick with discussing the negative impact of consumers buying goods post-Brexit and the ridiculous statement that I should be expected to trawl through 1,100+ word documents just to buy something from Europe and, even then. still be not sure of the outcome.


----------



## editor (Feb 2, 2021)

Meanwhile, port workers are now fearing for their safety: 









						Brexit: Animal-based food checks at ports suspended
					

Arlene Foster denounces "threats" against staff checking on animal and food products at Larne and Belfast.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Feb 2, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> One of the EU's top bureaucrats has clearly got too big for her boots in recent days and now appears to be flailing around trying to cover her arse. Hardly a sign that it has lost legitimacy or it isn't performing its functions correctly.
> Your second point is a bit more debatable, Is the EU undemocratic? The European Parliament is directly elected though it seems to be more a talking shop than anything else but a great deal of power still resides with national governments not the EU and they are directly elected.


Tempting though it might be to suggest that this is simply a case of one of the EU's top bureaucrats suddenly and inexplicably getting too big for their boots, I'm not convinced that's really a complete explanation.

But go on claiming this is all about some aberrant (auto suggest wanted to make that "abhorrent", funnily enough) individual behaviour rather than a more deep seated structural problem if it makes you feel better.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Tempting though it might be to suggest that this is simply a case of one of the EU's top bureaucrats suddenly and inexplicably getting too big for their boots, I'm not convinced that's really a complete explanation.
> 
> But go on claiming this is all about some aberrant (auto suggest wanted to make that "abhorrent", funnily enough) individual behaviour rather than a more deep seated structural problem if it makes you feel better.


Pretty cool structure that _allows _individuals like this to rise to the top over and over again isn't it:

That its top ranks have long been corrupted by immunity in their occupance of power is plain. It is enough to make a roll-call of its leading ornaments. Christine Lagarde, current president of the European Central Bank: suspected of complicity in fraud and malversation of public funds in covering for the crook Bernard Tapie, improperly paid €404 million by Crédit Lyonnais in 2008, when she was minister of the economy in France; in 2016 discharged by the state for ‘negligence’ with no penalty, in view of her ‘personality’ and (no doubt especially) her ‘international reputation’. By that time she was head of the IMF – where her predecessor, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, had had to resign on charges of sexual assault and attempted rape and his predecessor, Rodrigo Rato, had been imprisoned on charges of embezzlement. Ursula von der Leyen, current president of the European Commission: charged in 2015 with plagiarism on 43 per cent of the pages of her 1990 doctorate at Hannover Medical School; the university commission that absolved her, headed by an old acquaintance from the alumni association at the institution, was heavily criticised in the media, but after the fall of two previous ministers in Merkel’s government, both on charges of plagiarism, exhaustion had set in and she was allowed to keep her doctorate.

Von der Leyen’s predecessor, Jean-Claude Juncker of Luxembourg: survived repeated exposure of his involvement in the tax avoidance and policies facilitating money-laundering for which his country is famous. Her vice-president and high representative for foreign affairs and security, the Spaniard Josep Borrell: forced to resign as president of the European University Institute in Florence for concealing the annual salary of €300,000 he had been receiving from a Spanish energy company. Michel Barnier, EU commissioner in charge of Brexit negotiations with Britain: showered with ‘donations’ amounting to more than 300,000 francs – more than seven times the total received by his seven rivals – when running as a Gaullist candidate for Haute-Savoie in the legislative elections of 1993. Olaf Scholz, finance minister and vice-chancellor of Germany, hoping to succeed Merkel next year: caught in the media headlights after appointing – a first in the country – the co-chief executive of Goldman Sachs in Germany and Austria, Jörg Kukies, as his deputy for financial market and European policy, only to have to admit that he knew Kukies had been on intimate terms with Markus Braun, fraudster boss of the now bankrupt Wirecard company (assets once valued at $28 billion), the largest financial scandal in the history of Germany. Scholz’s chances of surviving parliamentary investigation intact: slim.


----------



## andysays (Feb 2, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Pretty cool structure that _allows _individuals like this to rise to the top over and over again isn't it:
> 
> That its top ranks have long been corrupted by immunity in their occupance of power is plain. It is enough to make a roll-call of its leading ornaments. Christine Lagarde, current president of the European Central Bank: suspected of complicity in fraud and malversation of public funds in covering for the crook Bernard Tapie, improperly paid €404 million by Crédit Lyonnais in 2008, when she was minister of the economy in France; in 2016 discharged by the state for ‘negligence’ with no penalty, in view of her ‘personality’ and (no doubt especially) her ‘international reputation’. By that time she was head of the IMF – where her predecessor, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, had had to resign on charges of sexual assault and attempted rape and his predecessor, Rodrigo Rato, had been imprisoned on charges of embezzlement. Ursula von der Leyen, current president of the European Commission: charged in 2015 with plagiarism on 43 per cent of the pages of her 1990 doctorate at Hannover Medical School; the university commission that absolved her, headed by an old acquaintance from the alumni association at the institution, was heavily criticised in the media, but after the fall of two previous ministers in Merkel’s government, both on charges of plagiarism, exhaustion had set in and she was allowed to keep her doctorate.
> 
> Von der Leyen’s predecessor, Jean-Claude Juncker of Luxembourg: survived repeated exposure of his involvement in the tax avoidance and policies facilitating money-laundering for which his country is famous. Her vice-president and high representative for foreign affairs and security, the Spaniard Josep Borrell: forced to resign as president of the European University Institute in Florence for concealing the annual salary of €300,000 he had been receiving from a Spanish energy company. Michel Barnier, EU commissioner in charge of Brexit negotiations with Britain: showered with ‘donations’ amounting to more than 300,000 francs – more than seven times the total received by his seven rivals – when running as a Gaullist candidate for Haute-Savoie in the legislative elections of 1993. Olaf Scholz, finance minister and vice-chancellor of Germany, hoping to succeed Merkel next year: caught in the media headlights after appointing – a first in the country – the co-chief executive of Goldman Sachs in Germany and Austria, Jörg Kukies, as his deputy for financial market and European policy, only to have to admit that he knew Kukies had been on intimate terms with Markus Braun, fraudster boss of the now bankrupt Wirecard company (assets once valued at $28 billion), the largest financial scandal in the history of Germany. Scholz’s chances of surviving parliamentary investigation intact: slim.


Merely a run of unfortunate and unlucky coincidences, having nothing to do with the EU and its structures, ne c'est pas?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Merely a run of unfortunate and unlucky coincidences, ne c'est pas?


Same with how unlucky they were to have had so many former Nazis involved from the inception.


----------



## andysays (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Same with how unlucky they were to have had so many former Nazis involved from the inception.


Could have happened to anyone...


----------



## Flavour (Feb 2, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Same with how unlucky they were to have had so many former Nazis involved from the inception.



I think that's slightly unfair, as you could make the same accusation of almost any institution, German or international involving Germany, since 1945.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 2, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> Pretty cool structure that _allows _individuals like this to rise to the top over and over again isn't it:
> 
> That its top ranks have long been corrupted by immunity in their occupance of power is plain. It is enough to make a roll-call of its leading ornaments. Christine Lagarde, current president of the European Central Bank: suspected of complicity in fraud and malversation of public funds in covering for the crook Bernard Tapie, improperly paid €404 million by Crédit Lyonnais in 2008, when she was minister of the economy in France; in 2016 discharged by the state for ‘negligence’ with no penalty, in view of her ‘personality’ and (no doubt especially) her ‘international reputation’. By that time she was head of the IMF – where her predecessor, Dominique Strauss-Kahn, had had to resign on charges of sexual assault and attempted rape and his predecessor, Rodrigo Rato, had been imprisoned on charges of embezzlement. Ursula von der Leyen, current president of the European Commission: charged in 2015 with plagiarism on 43 per cent of the pages of her 1990 doctorate at Hannover Medical School; the university commission that absolved her, headed by an old acquaintance from the alumni association at the institution, was heavily criticised in the media, but after the fall of two previous ministers in Merkel’s government, both on charges of plagiarism, exhaustion had set in and she was allowed to keep her doctorate.


Von der Lyen also cosidered a poor politician by all sides in Germany and a complete failure as their Minister of Defence, but given a helping hand throughout her career by her best mate, Angela Merkel.


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I would love to know what would cause you to change your mind. If the events of the last week would not change your mind what would?
> 
> For me if the EU reverted to being the EEA I would consider rejoining if it was put to a vote.



It can't though, coz of the EUro, and the sort of 'reform' required to rebalance that, the UK has fuck all business being involved with.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Von der Lyen also cosidered a poor politician by all sides in Germany and a complete failure as their Minister of Defence, but given a helping hand throughout her career by her best mate, Angela Merkel.


She's just accused the UK of compromising on safety by approving the vaccine she's been demanding we give her.

edit: aside from the shitty transparent face-saving attempt at politics, this gives the green-light to already high levels of vaccine-scepticism/idiocy across the EU - the effects of which are potentially devastating, undermining the way out of this horror.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Von der Lyen also cosidered a poor politician by all sides in Germany and a complete failure as their Minister of Defence, but given a helping hand throughout her career by her best mate, Angela Merkel.


“Helped into power” we’ve heard that one before!


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Merely a run of unfortunate and unlucky coincidences, having nothing to do with the EU and its structures, ne c'est pas?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

Fucking vandalizing twats if this happens









						15 million baby bees could be seized and burned over Brexit rules
					

British beekeeper told his order of baby Italian bees would be destroyed if he tried to import them




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 2, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> She's just accused the UK of compromising on safety by approving the vaccine she's been demanding we give her.



She really needs to shut up now.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 2, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> She's just accused the UK of compromising on safety by approving the vaccine she's been demanding we give her.


"We"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I wonder who Jonathan Saxty voted for in the election



Cunt looks like he grew a beard so people wouldn't notice he's a 6th-former.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 2, 2021)

6th formers are looking younger and younger nowadays


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> This.  There's also the fact that eels are revolting.
> 
> <scarpers>



Smoked eel is the tastiest smoked seafood there is.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smoked eel is the tastiest smoked seafood there is.


no it isn't, it is of course the kippered herring


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 2, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smoked eel is the tastiest smoked seafood there is.


Whilst jellied eels are an abomination. They're all about London trolling the rest of the the world.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Whilst jellied eels are an abomination. They're all about London trolling the rest of the the world.


it's strange how until you puked after eating a dozen jellied eels you sang their praises and wouldn't hear a word against them.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's strange how until you puked after eating a dozen jellied eels you sang their praises and wouldn't hear a word against them.


Some hope. I've never managed to get more than half a mouthful down!


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Some hope. I've never managed to get more than half a mouthful down!


not since that night you had to be packed into a taxi and sent home anyway


----------



## brogdale (Feb 2, 2021)

So cunty Gove is now piggy-backing on the paramilitary threats made towards those checking at the GB/NI border to undo what they signed up to just over a month ago; claiming that the controls were "unexpected":



and unnecessary, anyway...



apparently unaware that NI & RoI are parts of the same land mass.

This shitshow arising because the little pobby cunt was apparentently two busy rowing with the EU to actually sort anything out...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> See? Even teuchter gets it!



"Stopped clock accurate twice a day" shocker!!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The ' EU stood by Ireland/The EU refuse to have a border in Ireland'  brigade might be surprised to find out that the EU have just invoked Article 16 .
> 
> Wonder if we will see the EU border force flown over
> 
> View attachment 251954



Cunt doing a US salute, the cunt!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Ah, the classic shift of the goalposts. No, I'd like to stick with discussing the negative impact of consumers buying goods post-Brexit and the ridiculous statement that I should be expected to trawl through 1,100+ word documents just to buy something from Europe and, even then. still be not sure of the outcome.


It’s the same subject is Brexit. Your swerve is casusing me to chuckle.


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cunt doing a US salute, the cunt!


full rimmer or nothing


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They're now denying that the button was ever pushed. Someone at EUHQ has been at the schnapps I reckon.



Some of the Irish contingent probably filled the schnapps bottles with 80% abv poteen.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Cheese and ham croissants are a war crime


...but a Crocque Monsieur is entirely acceptable.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I've never been offered a Croque Monsieur in Simpsons, tbf.



Not sure Simpsons would ever sell anything as..._European_...as a Croque Monsieur. Welsh Rarebit maybe, if pushed.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I wouldn't go as far a Banging the Bishop but someone needs to give him a clip round the ear about his understanding of EU history
> 
> View attachment 252003



He's a fucking capitalist & Tory. Of course he doesn't have a clue.


----------



## Roadkill (Feb 2, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smoked eel is the tastiest smoked seafood there is.



You couldn't be more wrong if you tried!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Being clipped round the ear?



Put in the fucking stocks more like. 
& that's just for that fucking stupid hat the archshit of Cunterbury wears.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

The39thStep said:


>




Mentioning the Big Chief Mackerel-Snapper in the context of Northern Ireland seems a bit "tone deaf" regarding the vociferous beliefs of nearly half the population of the 6 counties.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

gosub said:


> full rimjob or nothing



Well! I say!!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 2, 2021)

Roadkill said:


> You couldn't be more wrong if you tried!



Yes I could!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 2, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Yes I could!


Smoked eel is delicious. It has the right amount of fat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Smoked eel is delicious. It has the right amount of fat.


yeh, it's good. very good. but it's not as delicious as a kipper.


----------



## seeformiles (Feb 2, 2021)

As someone who has UC teaching me to suck eggs, I’ve noticed how companies are already advertising 40+ hour weeks and demanding ludicrous qualifications for rock bottom wages.
#Sovereignty


----------



## Badgers (Feb 2, 2021)

Michael Gove Admits Northern Ireland Post-Brexit Trade Disruption Is Not Just 'Teething Problems'
					

The problems facing British businesses trying to export goods to Northern Ireland are not simply 'teething problems', but 'significant issues', acc...




					www.politicshome.com
				






> The problems facing British businesses trying to export goods to Northern Ireland are not simply "teething problems", but "significant issues", according to Michael Gove, despite Boris Johnson's attempts to play down the disruption.


----------



## editor (Feb 2, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> As someone who has UC teaching me to suck eggs, I’ve noticed how companies are already advertising 40+ hour weeks and demanding ludicrous qualifications for rock bottom wages.
> #Sovereignty


I thought Brexit was supposed to free us from the tyranny of Europe's meddling and improve everyone's working conditions?

Apart from those at the sharp end getting threatened in the ports, of course.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 2, 2021)

Not quite looking onwards but this is a really good interview with Philip Hammond about brexit and what happened in government at the time:



			https://ukandeu.ac.uk/interview-pdf/?personid=42190


----------



## A380 (Feb 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> 1st April IIRC before proper customs procedures kick in
> ETA: Irish Sea border: What will happen once the grace periods end?
> 
> Talks with the EU? Good luck with that.
> Whats the alternative though here?  What to talk about exactly? What are the DUP proposing?


A return to 1956?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 2, 2021)

A380 said:


> A return to 1956?


There's some great music coming up in a couple of years then


----------



## A380 (Feb 2, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There's some great music coming up in a couple of years then



1958- Rocking Robin?


----------



## gosub (Feb 2, 2021)

andysays said:


> Tempting though it might be to suggest that this is simply a case of one of the EU's top bureaucrats suddenly and inexplicably getting too big for their boots, I'm not convinced that's really a complete explanation.
> 
> But go on claiming this is all about some aberrant (auto suggest wanted to make that "abhorrent", funnily enough) individual behaviour rather than a more deep seated structural problem if it makes you feel better.


Furious Germany will not forget EU vaccine disaster when Brussels seeks more bailout money (telegraph.co.uk)


----------



## Flavour (Feb 2, 2021)

The brexit/gfa paradox keeps on giving. I hope it creates a Belfast Boom as it gets to take advantage of its unique position of having fingers in both pies. Lots of talk of finance abandoning the City of London - I say next stop Falls Road!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 2, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Fucking vandalizing twats if this happens
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We don't need no Italian bees coming over here fertilizing our plants with their forrin ways.


We might actually if the Conservatives do allow neonicotinoids to be used again as they are angling to do.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There's some great music coming up in a couple of years then



Conditions seem ripe for a skiffle revival.


----------



## mx wcfc (Feb 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> We don't need no Italian bees coming over here fertilizing our plants with their forrin ways.
> 
> 
> We might actually if the Conservatives do allow neonicotinoids to be used again as they are angling to do.


Agreed on the Tories allowing nocotinoids (sp?) wholeheartedly.

There is an issue over whether imported bees could carry diseases that could wipe out "our" bees with diseases.

It's the same shit with trees.  We only have Ash "die back" because we couldn't stop imports of trees from the EU, and because UK businesses wanted to import trees cos that was easier than growing them here.

We are an Island.  we can stop biological imports fucking us.

(oh, maybe we could have done that with covid)


----------



## two sheds (Feb 3, 2021)

yes good point


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

A friend told me tonight that he bought a £450 mixer from Thomann.de but was hit with an additional £150 fee from the courier when it arrived last week.
So struggling musicians/DJs with low funds can now kiss goodbye to what used to a decent source of competitively priced gear. 


#brexitwinningagain


----------



## Flavour (Feb 3, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> Agreed on the Tories allowing nocotinoids (sp?) wholeheartedly.



Neonicotinoids. Helps if you think of it as neo nicotine, which is, essentially, what it is


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

seeformiles said:


> As someone who has UC teaching me to suck eggs, I’ve noticed how companies are already advertising 40+ hour weeks and demanding ludicrous qualifications for rock bottom wages.
> #Sovereignty


This is new?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> A friend told me tonight that he bought a £450 mixer from Thomann.de but was hit with an additional £150 fee from the courier when it arrived last week.
> So struggling musicians/DJs with low funds can now kiss goodbye to what used to a decent source of competitively priced gear.
> 
> 
> #brexitwinningagain


#notallaboutmusicians


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

#secondhandgearisbetterfortheplanetanyway
#nottomentionthesweatshopswherecomponentsaremade


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> #secondhandgearisbetterfortheplanetanyway
> #nottomentionthesweatshopswherecomponentsaremade


#drippingwithrighteoushypocrisy


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> #notallaboutmusicians


Struggling DJ actually, but you've made it clear you don't give much of a fuck about them.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> #notallaboutmusicians


True, sod the musicians most of them are probably Remoaners anyway.

But who do you think is having a better time so far due to brexit though, or will be soon if not quite yet.
Maybe lawyers, maybe bankers in America, and the haddock marketing board. 
Anyone else?


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> #notallaboutmusicians


Yes, that's right. It's about ordinary people finding themselves being hit with extra financial penalties or hardships. Including those working in the music/DJ/entertainment business.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 3, 2021)

Flavour said:


> The brexit/gfa paradox keeps on giving. I hope it creates a Belfast Boom as it gets to take advantage of its unique position of having fingers in both pies. Lots of talk of finance abandoning the City of London - I say next stop Falls Road!


I strongly suspect once enough people start to think that Scottish independence may about to become a real thing, there will be an unseemly rush to relocate to Edinburgh


ska invita said:


> 1st April IIRC before proper customs procedures kick in
> ETA: Irish Sea border: What will happen once the grace periods end?
> 
> Talks with the EU? Good luck with that.
> Whats the alternative though here?  What to talk about exactly? What are the DUP proposing?


Turning back the clock. The DUP have shot themselves massively in the foot here, they seemed to have supported Brexit because Sinn Fein opposed it without thinking their position through. An error further compounded by the fact that once he had got his massive majority, BoZo sold them down the river without a thought. Guess no matter how much they may deny it, they can see the writing on the wall same as everyone else.
Same with the numbnuts threatening the staff at the customs post, what do they think they can achieve? That the EU/UK will sit down and completely renegotiate the deal to suit them? If companies can't get their products into NI because of lack of customs facilities, they will just stop sending them. Anyone care to take a guess where their NI customers will then turn to as a source.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> True, sod the musicians most of them are probably Remoaners anyway.
> 
> But who do you think is having a better time so far due to brexit though, or will be soon if not quite yet.
> Maybe lawyers, maybe bankers in America, and the haddock marketing board.
> Anyone else?


How are you defining “better time” and do you think that definition would be universally shared?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> How are you defining “better time” and do you think that definition would be universally shared?


I’d take any definition of having a better time tbh.
Didn’t have specifics in mind, just something like finding everyday life and or work in some way better or easier as a result of the brexit.
Fish don’t count though only humans.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is new?


This isn't new no but while it was far from perfect, EU legislation did have some effect especially in large multinationals where its often easier and cheaper to follow at least the words of the laws rather than get creative about bending them. Just because some people were shat on despite the spirit of the legislation is no reason to get rid of it so even more people can be shat on legally.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I’d take any definition of having a better time tbh.
> Didn’t have specifics in mind, just something like finding everyday life and or work in some way better or easier as a result of the brexit.
> Fish don’t count though only humans.


In that case, all those who identified negative affect as a result of being anxious that the EU were acting as cultural imperators are better off.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This isn't new no but while it was far from perfect, EU legislation did have some effect especially in large multinationals where its often easier and cheaper to follow at least the words of the laws rather than get creative about bending them. Just because some people were shat on despite the spirit of the legislation is no reason to get rid of it so even more people can be shat on legally.


Employers didn't need to get that creative about getting round the 40 hours thing, they just needed to ask job applicants to sign a waiver saying that they were willing to work more than 40 hours a week, and that's just what many did.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

I’ve never known a job contract in my industry (which is full of multinationals) that didn’t have a waiver for the 40 hours maximum.


----------



## Dr. Furface (Feb 3, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Not quite looking onwards but this is a really good interview with Philip Hammond about brexit and what happened in government at the time:
> 
> 
> 
> https://ukandeu.ac.uk/interview-pdf/?personid=42190


'David Davis in particular had this very crude 1980s approach to negotiation. I know David quite well, I knew him before I went into politics – David’s backstory is that he was the trouble-shooter for Tate & Lyle. When there was a problem, they sent David Davis. Shut down a refinery, fire a load of people, get rid of the troublemakers: the bare-knuckle fighter. That’s how he liked to see himself. David Davis’ approach to negotiation is you slap it on the table, you lean across, and you eyeball them. If they don’t give way immediately, you say, ‘I’ll see you round the back.’ That was always his view on this. ‘We’ve got the money, they want our money, so we wave a cheque at them then we stick it in our back pocket and we say, ‘Right, show us what you’ve got’. In the end, they’ll want our money. They’ll want access to our market. How long is this going to take, 15 minutes? Give me 15 minutes in a room with these people. I’ll sort them out.’ That was his view of the world, and it was widely shared among the Brexiteers.'


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> #drippingwithrighteoushypocrisy



excuse me? _hypocrisy?_ feel free to explain that one...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> Struggling DJ actually, but you've made it clear you don't give much of a fuck about them.


I have made nothing of the sort clear. I just find it remarkable that you only see brexit through the prism of being a muso/DJ.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 3, 2021)

andysays said:


> Employers didn't need to get that creative about getting round the 40 hours thing, they just needed to ask job applicants to sign a waiver saying that they were willing to work more than 40 hours a week, and that's just what many did.


I was asked many times, I refused and yes I appreciate I was in a privileged position and many people would find it harder to do than I did. The problem was never the EU legislation it was UK governments that were less than enthusiatic about enforcing it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In that case, all those who identified negative affect as a result of being anxious that the EU were acting as cultural imperators are better off.


So nothing concrete then. Just 'I feel better now'?

And 'anxious'? Really? Who felt _anxious_ about the UK being in the EU?

ETA: And given that there have been concrete negative effects for many people, those whose hearts are warmed by the glow of brexit are in a pretty nasty state of mind, I would think. _I'm alright. It hasn't negatively affected me. My feels are more important than your struggles. More than that, my feels aren't negatively affected by your struggles. I still feel great despite knowing that you're suffering.  _


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have made nothing of the sort clear. I just find it remarkable that you only see brexit through the prism of being a muso/DJ.


That's a huge leap, just because someone offers up their first hand experience doesn't automatically infer that's their only way of seeing it.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I strongly suspect once enough people start to think that Scottish independence may about to become a real thing, there will be an unseemly rush to relocate to Edinburgh
> 
> Turning back the clock. The DUP have shot themselves massively in the foot here, they seemed to have supported Brexit because Sinn Fein opposed it without thinking their position through. An error further compounded by the fact that once he had got his massive majority, BoZo sold them down the river without a thought. Guess no matter how much they may deny it, they can see the writing on the wall same as everyone else.
> Same with the numbnuts threatening the staff at the customs post, what do they think they can achieve? That the EU/UK will sit down and completely renegotiate the deal to suit them? If companies can't get their products into NI because of lack of customs facilities, they will just stop sending them. Anyone care to take a guess where their NI customers will then turn to as a source.


A united Ireland can happen out of this mess.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> That's a huge leap, just because someone offers up their first hand experience doesn't automatically infer that's their only way of seeing it.


No it’s consistent throughout his posts. What about the musos and BTW you are all bigots and stupid.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’ve never known a job contract in my industry (which is full of multinationals) that didn’t have a waiver for the 40 hours maximum.



In care work, most organizations ask employees to sign one of these. The way they err _sell _it is to say something like "Well if you don't sign it then you can't work more than 48 hours a week, it won't be legal for us to let you, and what about if you need the extra money eh?" And because the hourly wage is (usually) less than £9 per hour (48 x 9 = 432 _at best_, less after tax & NI), most people sign.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A united Ireland can happen out of this mess.


A united ireland  - on this basis - will see the EU putting people out of work left right and centre, imposing wage-destroying policies, attacking every single thing the working class has won.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> A united ireland  - on this basis - will see the EU putting people out of work left right and centre, imposing wage-destroying policies, attacking every single thing the working class has won.


Well maybe they will reconsider ongoing membership.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well maybe they will reconsider ongoing membership.


Not  a chance in hell.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well maybe they will reconsider ongoing membership.




What, this Ireland? Apple And Ireland Challenge EU Over $14.4 Billion Tax Ruling


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2021)

I read above a brexit supporter characterising the situation as a 'mess'. Yet brexit supporters say they knew what they were voting for. Maybe it was a roundabout cunning plan after all to create a 'united Ireland'. Not something on the ballot paper. Or maybe it is a kind of self delusion where they voted brexit without any clue or care regarding the Irish border, but they try to frame subsequent events as something they really planned all along.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> #drippingwithrighteoushypocrisy





mojo pixy said:


> excuse me? _hypocrisy?_ feel free to explain that one...





editor said:


> <fuckall>



Yes, I thought so.

And despite the fact I owe _no explanation at all_, let me add the last time I bought new electronic equipment was in 2006 and it was an applemac powerbook. Since then I've made a point of only buying second-hand gear (including laptops) and encouraging every musician / producer / dj I know to do the same. Last brand new instrument I bought was a Lakewood guitar hand-made (they claim at least) from sustainable forest wood.

So 'righteous', maybe - even 'self-righteous' - but 'hypocrite', no. I get that you're angry and lashing out but I think you're better than this.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In that case, all those who identified negative affect as a result of being anxious that the EU were acting as cultural imperators are better off.


That post made me laugh a little bit but seriously, that’s it? That’s the only attempt at an answer that anyone’s going to do?  

What if a person had “identified negative affect as a result of being anxious about EU imperatorism” back in 2016 but now they have a real life problem like nobody wants to buy their eels. 
Are they they better off or not?


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I was asked many times, I refused and yes I appreciate I was in a privileged position and many people would find it harder to do than I did. The problem was never the EU legislation it was UK governments that were less than enthusiatic about enforcing it.


With regard to the 40 hour rule specifically, the UK gov agreed an opt out for that particular piece of legislation, so it was perfectly legal for an employer to ask/effectively demand that potential employees signed the waiver.

I too was asked many times, and mostly I signed, because I feared if I didn't I wouldn't get the job.

Unsurprisingly, the employers who didn't asked me to sign usually had a strong union presence and it was that, rather than UK or EU legislation which ensured workers had reasonable working conditions.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> So nothing concrete then. Just 'I feel better now'?


 That is concrete.  Whatever you place the emphasis of “important” on is an ideological construction.  Your preference for what is important means that there are no concrete benefits from your perspective but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist for others.  What is more concrete than how you relate to the world?  Do you not feel hurt in a concrete way from being severed from Europe?  You certainly give every indication that this is a concrete injury to your sense of place.



> And 'anxious'? Really? Who felt _anxious_ about the UK being in the EU?


I already posted a paper that identified a proportion of the population as being characterised by their representation of Europe as being a worrying cultural force undermining their sense of identity.  Again, just because this is nonsense from your own ideological perspective, doesn’t mean that also applies to those who think differently.



> ETA: And given that there have been concrete negative effects for many people, those whose hearts are warmed by the glow of brexit are in a pretty nasty state of mind, I would think. _I'm alright. It hasn't negatively affected me. My feels are more important than your struggles. More than that, my feels aren't negatively affected by your struggles. I still feel great despite knowing that you're suffering.  _


Right.  Just as you felt good about being in the EU despite the hurt of others who hated it (and who struggled in material ways as a result of it, unless you deny a single such person existed).


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> That post made me laugh a little bit but seriously, that’s it? That’s the only attempt at an answer that anyone’s going to do?


 We’ve only had a month, what else did you expect?

I could also point out that those who won’t now die as a result of receiving a vaccine that would not have had one had Britain still been in the EU are also better off.  But that is actually to still play the game on the field of material benefits.  And if you think that is the reason a lot of people voted for Brexit, you’re really missing the point.



> What if a person had “identified negative affect as a result of being anxious about EU imperatorism” back in 2016 but now they have a real life problem like nobody wants to buy their eels.
> Are they they better off or not?


Yes to both parts of that question.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?


No, it could have been approved just the same.  But being involved in the EU procurement program would have had consequences.

You’re focusing on the wrong part of the answer though, despite me explicitly pointing out that this is the wrong part of the answer when I wrote it.


----------



## seeformiles (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> This is new?



Up until January all the jobs in the sectors I was applying to were 35-37 hours per week with wages broadly what I was earning before. Since the New Year the hours have increased and the wages dropped so yes, in my experience, it’s a definite shift.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?


You're confusing facts with truths.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

The wilful blindness to what underlay the very different reasons that different groups voted for Brexit is quite incredible.  If people didn’t vote for Brexit out of a belief that it would bring material benefits, why are you looking for them to expect material benefits as their reward post-Brexit?  

This isn’t even a controversial thing to consider.  Is everything you do only because you think it will make you money?  Do you never _spend_ money despite knowing this will impoverish you?  Why do you do this?


----------



## mauvais (Feb 3, 2021)

Spending money on some shit that doesn't actually improve your life - which you pretty much knew when you bought it - doesn't make you 'better off' though, does it?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Spending money on some shit that doesn't actually improve your life - which you pretty much knew when you bought it - doesn't make you 'better off' though, does it?


You’re begging the question


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

It’s clear to me that the people that laugh at Brexit voters being clueless regarding the benefits of being in Europe are just as clueless about the detriments of being in Europe from the perspective of those they are laughing at.  I’d say it’s a case of completely talking past each other but it’s not even that, because they aren’t even sharing a common space to do the talking in.


----------



## Supine (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I already posted a paper that identified a proportion of the population as being characterised by their representation of Europe as being a worrying cultural force undermining their sense of identity.



The Brexit racist contingent


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I already posted a paper that identified a proportion of the population as being characterised by their representation of Europe as being a worrying cultural force undermining their sense of identity. Again, just because this is nonsense from your own ideological perspective, doesn’t mean that also applies to those who think differently.


😂
wait till they find out _they're still in europe, and still europeans!!_
pitty the identity crisis


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?


No it not. Why would you assert everyone has agreed this?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No it not. Why would you assert everyone has agreed this?


No it not what ?

Do you think brexit made a difference to the Uk vaccine procurement & rollout?

if you do think that, why?

Joining in their procurement program would have but that was optional wasnt it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

Supine said:


> The Brexit racist contingent






ska invita said:


> 😂
> wait till they find out _they're still in europe, and still europeans!!_
> pitty the identity crisis


I rest my case


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> No it not what ?
> 
> Do you think brexit made a difference to the Uk vaccine procurement & rollout?
> 
> ...


No it is not refers to your assertion in the third line of your post.

But joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us. Brexit gave the UK the freedom to enter into procurement arrangements of our own which is why we are so far ahead of the EU in getting our vaccine.

I just got my second shot. Doubt many in the EU have had the second given the woeful numbers receiving the first jab.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

Sounds suspiciously parallel to the _anxieties_ of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be _opposed_.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s clear to me that the people that laugh at Brexit voters being clueless regarding the benefits of being in Europe are just as clueless about the detriments of being in Europe from the perspective of those they are laughing at.  I’d say it’s a case of completely talking past each other but it’s not even that, because they aren’t even sharing a common space to do the talking in.


If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?

If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.

Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us.


It was voluntary, just on a point of fact.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sounds suspiciously parallel to the _anxieties_ of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be _opposed_.





mauvais said:


> If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?
> 
> If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.
> 
> Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.


Quite right.  Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift.  It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sounds suspiciously parallel to the _anxieties_ of Trumpist Americans WHOSE COUNTRY IS BEING STOLEN FROM THEM. At root, while problems and issues may be real enough, the proposed solutions to those problems are something fundamentally to be _opposed_.


So brexit supporters are like Trump supporters. Desperate times for the remoaners.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> joining in with the EU procurement programme was not voluntary for EU countries and would not have been for us. Brexit gave the UK the freedom to enter into procurement arrangements of our own which is why we are so far ahead of the EU in getting our vaccine.


I think this is wrong.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> If it turns out, in the fullness of time, that for our anxious friends the cause of their problems lay elsewhere, and nothing has improved and indeed other things have got worse, then it would be difficult to describe this as better off, wouldn't it?
> 
> If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.
> 
> Ultimately going down this road takes you to the question of whether a feeling is an acceptable substitute for structural consequences.


What about countries voting to throw off colonial rule? Doing so made many arguably poorer but this usually didn’t matter to the majority.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think this is wrong.
> 
> View attachment 252588


Who or what are you quoting?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I rest my case


i didnt realise you were so keen for Brexit to be founded in identity politics
crack on


----------



## mauvais (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Quite right.  Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift.  It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?


What's _your _interpretation based on, exactly?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who or what are you quoting?


Just the first link I found, when asking google if it was voluntary for EU states to join the procurement scheme or not. it was this one.




__





						StackPath
					





					www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Quite right.  Probably best to keep on guessing motives and assigning your own interpretations and hope that closes the rift.  It hasn’t worked so far, but maybe you just need to strawman harder?


Mine is a political position. For instance, it opposes the scapegoating of immigrants for problems of employment and housing. 

What's yours?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Just the first link I found, when asking google if it was voluntary for EU states to join the procurement scheme or not. it was this one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did you actually read it?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2021)

My choice on the day was "do I want to be stuck on an island where the Conservatives, and to a lesser extent the bland dullness of the other parties, are in charge and allowed to do whatever they fucking want"

The answer to this is still no I do not.


The EU is incompetent and corporate and unaccountable but *waves hand at last year alone on Boris Island *


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> What's _your _interpretation based on, exactly?


The various sociopaychological papers I’ve been reading that are trying to get at the answer to the question.  I posted a few earlier but there’s a lot more out there — the social drivers of Brexit has been quite a hot topic, you know.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did you actually read it?


Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i didnt realise you were so keen for Brexit to be founded in identity politics
> crack on


My statements have had nothing to do with identity politics.  Understanding the identity drivers of people’s behaviour is not endorsing a politics based on those identities.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> "do I want to be stuck on an island where the Conservatives, and to a lesser extent the bland dullness of the other parties, are in charge and allowed to do whatever they fucking want"
> 
> The answer to this is still no I do not.



What should we do about that, comrade?

(Assuming the EU doesn't care about the UK being run indefinitely tories, which I think is a fairly safe bet)


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.


When Hungary said they were getting the Sputnik vaccine did they get a cheer from the EU?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> What should we do about that, comrade?
> 
> (Assuming the EU doesn't care about the UK being run indefinitely the Tories, which I think is a fairly safe bet)



Emigrate.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Are you ok? The thing we are arguing about is a point of fact. You said EU countries had no choice had to join in the joint procurement scheme. That’s not right is it.


How many opted out?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> When Hungary said they were getting the Sputnik vaccine did they get a cheer from the EU?


A cheer ? What’s that got to do with anything.
It’s ok you know to just say, thanks I was mistaken, it was voluntary.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Mine is a political position. For instance, it opposes the scapegoating of immigrants for problems of employment and housing.
> 
> What's yours?


My position on what?  I’m not stating  a position.  I’m trying to understand what drove people to vote for Brexit and thus what benefit they may feel they derive from the post-Brexit situation.  You seemingly have no interest at all in that question.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> A cheer ? What’s that got to do with anything.
> It’s ok you know to just say, thanks I was mistaken.


After you.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How many opted out?


Answer bimble?


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Answer bimble?


Roll eyes. You said it was mandatory. It wasn’t. It’s shit that all those countries seem to have chosen the wrong thing by joining in, including the one my old parents live in. I’m sad about that.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

As I said, I’m less interested in the question of whether Britain truly materially benefited from its ex-EU position regarding vaccines, as I feel this misses the point.  Nevertheless, you can’t on the one hand argue that it’s best to be part of the EU superstate and then say that the best benefits of this are derived by refusing to take part in the superstate’s joint initiatives.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, I thought so.
> 
> And despite the fact I owe _no explanation at all_, let me add the last time I bought new electronic equipment was in 2006 and it was an applemac powerbook. Since then I've made a point of only buying second-hand gear (including laptops) and encouraging every musician / producer / dj I know to do the same. Last brand new instrument I bought was a Lakewood guitar hand-made (they claim at least) from sustainable forest wood.
> 
> So 'righteous', maybe - even 'self-righteous' - but 'hypocrite', no. I get that you're angry and lashing out but I think you're better than this.


Phone? TV? Fridge? And even secondhanded stuff uses the same sweatshops. Or do you have special non-sweatshop sourced components?

Having a go at professionals buying the right gear for their job really is pathetic, particularly when it's an investment that's likely to last them ten years or more.  Plus, second-hand mixers can be the root of a fucking ballache of problems, so I'd never be so pompous as to have a go at someone for buying reliable new gear that is critical for their job.

And I'm pretty sure I'd have some fucking sympathy for hard up musicians/DJs suddenly having to shell out crippling extra costs on essential gear.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Emigrate.



I personally can't emigrate, for a variety of reasons. If there were some socialist paradise somewhere that welcomed all comers, I might consider it, but I still have a child in full-time education for the next ten years. So I'm stuck here .. trying to build a mobile guillotine without the neighbors noticing


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I personally can't emigrate, for a variety of reasons. If there were some socialist paradise somewhere that welcomed all comers, I might consider it, but I still have a child in full-time education for the next ten years. So I'm stuck here .. trying to build a mobile guillotine without the neighbors noticing


why not try and enlist their assistance?


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No it’s consistent throughout his posts. What about the musos and BTW you are all bigots and stupid.


I'd appreciate a few quotes where I've called people 'bigots' and 'stupid' please.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The various sociopaychological papers I’ve been reading that are trying to get at the answer to the question.  I posted a few earlier but there’s a lot more out there — the social drivers of Brexit has been quite a hot topic, you know.


For the purposes of this at least, I don't give a shit what drove Brexit, I'm interested in what that's turned into now that it's happened. You're seemingly trying to talk about feelings like identity-based anxiety that led into this debacle without inspecting whether those feelings have subsequently been validated, challenged or anything else by events.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> Phone? TV? Fridge?



Also second hand, and I don't own a TV.



editor said:


> even secondhanded stuff uses the same sweatshops.



This is just disingenuous rubbish really.



editor said:


> Having a go at professionals buying the right gear for their job really is pathetic, particularly when it's an investment that's likely to last them ten years or more.  Plus, second-hand mixers can be the root of a fucking ballache of problems, so I'd never be so pompous as to have a go at someone buying reliable new gear that is critical for their job.



Who's ''having a go''? That's your speciality, not mine. I'm just saying that the more of us buy brand new, sweatshop-made gear, the more it will go on being made. One person boycotting that shit has not a lot of impact, but 1000 people, 10 000? Maybe more.

Anyway, I'm not interested in getting into a poisonous little spat with you. You were wrong to call me a hypocrite, I can only suppose that seeing 'hypocrisy' everywhere makes it easier to indulge in yourself. Whatever.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> . Last brand new instrument I bought was a Lakewood guitar hand-made (they claim at least) from sustainable forest wood.


It's great that you can afford hugely expensive handmade guitars, but many people just need to find cheap, reliable gear that's hopefully going to last them a lifetime. And in some areas - like mixers, CD decks etc - buying second hand gear can prove to be a false economy. And I speak from considerable experience here.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> That is concrete.  Whatever you place the emphasis of “important” on is an ideological construction.  Your preference for what is important means that there are no concrete benefits from your perspective but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist for others.  What is more concrete than how you relate to the world?  Do you not feel hurt in a concrete way from being severed from Europe?  You certainly give every indication that this is a concrete injury to your sense of place.
> 
> I already posted a paper that identified a proportion of the population as being characterised by their representation of Europe as being a worrying cultural force undermining their sense of identity.  Again, just because this is nonsense from your own ideological perspective, doesn’t mean that also applies to those who think differently.
> 
> ...


This - and the related posts - is/are spot on. A few months back lbj claimed that if it weren't for the virus there would be pro-remain riots and millions on the street. (I'm not picking on him here, this just stuck in my mind and i thought was pretty emblematic). I immediately thought, _what on earth are you on about?_- this is not a world i recognise at all.  We live in different worlds. Not because of brexit though.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> It's great that you can afford hugely expensive handmade guitars



I saved for nearly a fucking _year _to buy it ffs.



editor said:


> And in some areas - like mixers, CD decks etc - buying second hand gear can prove to be a false economy. And I speak from considerable experience here.



It can, if you're not careful and if you don't know what you're looking for / at. I've never been burned on used equipment, 'and I speak from considerable experience here'.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

mauvais said:


> For the purposes of this at least, I don't give a shit what drove Brexit, I'm interested in what that's turned into now that it's happened. You're seemingly trying to talk about feelings like identity-based anxiety that led into this debacle without inspecting whether those feelings have subsequently been validated, challenged or anything else by events.


The question was this



> But who do you think is having a better time so far due to brexit though, or will be soon if not quite yet.


I checked what was meant by “better time” and got the answer:



> I’d take any definition of having a better time tbh.


Well, if you want to understand who is having a better time, you first have to understand the motivations and priorities of those who might be having that better time.  And yet this is apparently considered irrelevant by you and so many others.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Roll eyes. You said it was mandatory. It wasn’t. It’s shit that all those countries seem to have chosen the wrong thing by joining in, including the one my old parents live in. I’m sad about that.


So there was no pressure then from the EU commission?


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Also second hand, and I don't own a TV.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If people didn't buy new gear there'd be no second hand gear. And as I've tried to explain to you, sometimes it works out more financially prudent to buy new gear.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The question was this
> 
> 
> I checked what was meant by “better time” and got the answer:
> ...


Qualitatively different from a material problem being experienced due to brexit, whether that's some aspect of your job that's been affected, your needing to register as a settled alien national, or whatever problem it may be, large or small. Very different from something that exists inside your head but is not characterised by any real-world phenomenon.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Well, if you want to understand who is having a better time, you first have to understand the motivations and priorities of those who might be having that better time.  And yet this is apparently considered irrelevant by you and so many others.


I understand (to some extent) who might have _expected_ to be having a better time based on what they sought to happen. I'm just asking you to demonstrate that they are now having it, because I suspect they're not, in anything but the extremely short term.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I saved for nearly a fucking _year _to buy it ffs.


And how would you have liked it if you had to save for another three months because an arbitrary hefty tax had just been stuck on it?

But you're just proving my point anyway and contradicting yourself: sometimes - for whatever reason - it's necessary to buy new gear.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> If people didn't buy new gear there'd be no second hand gear.



So that's how you justify supporting sweatshop manufacture. ''Other people do it''? Well ok.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

This, of course, is where the far-rights criticisms of capitalism producing the _homo economicus - _the subject concerned only with rational profit and economic maximisation is making serious inroads. People ain't that.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> And how would you have liked it if you had to save for another three months because an arbitrary hefty tax had just been stuck on it?



Then I'd have done that ffs.



editor said:


> But you're just proving my point anyway and contradicting yourself: sometimes - *for whatever reason* - it's necessary to buy new gear.



eh, not really, no.
Edit .. I suppose ''for whatever reason'' includes being able to show off the nice new (not used!) thing to mates? My considerable experience tells me this is a major motivator behind buying brand new gear. Seen it again and again.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Qualitatively different from a material problem being experienced due to brexit, whether that's some aspect of your job that's been affected, your needing to register as a settled alien national, or whatever problem it may be, large or small. Very different from something that exists inside your head but is not characterised by any real-world phenomenon.


It wasn’t my question, though, and I double-checked from the asker of the question what was meant by “better time”.  There is a proportion of the population that are happier now, which definitely comprises a “better time”.  I think it’s worth understanding why.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> So that's how you justify supporting sweatshop manufacture. ''Other people do it''? Well ok.


I've made no mention of 'supporting sweatshop manufacture. although it's almost inevitable than you and I will have goods sourced from such industries. 

The mixer in question is an Allen & Heath, btw.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Then I'd have done that ffs.
> 
> 
> 
> eh, not really, no.


As well as a non-touring musician are you a working DJ playing big gigs too? What makes you think you can tell people what gear they need?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> If people didn't buy new gear there'd be no second hand gear.


there are other sources of secondhand gear than simply people casting off after upgrading. people die, their gear is sold. people downsize, their gear is sold. people lose interest, their gear is sold


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there are other sources of secondhand gear than simply people casting off after upgrading. people die, their gear is sold. people downsize, their gear is sold. people lose interest, their gear is sold


Yes, thanks for that. So you're saying that people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes?


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I saved for nearly a fucking _year _to buy it ffs.


How much did it cost?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, thanks for that. So you're saying that people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes?


He just said that word for word the bastard.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> As well as a non-touring musician are you a working DJ playing big gigs too? What makes you think you can tell people what gear they need?



Um, ethics? Ever heard of that before?
I began my efforts to buy gear second hand years before I gave up making part of my living playing music. It's nice to know it was some kind of magical, superhuman effort that's far too hard for mere mortals to achieve. You know, rather than just being a moral and ethical decision that anyone could make.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, thanks for that. So you're saying that people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes?


You've got a bike, haven't you?


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> How much did it cost?



Oh it was really really


editor said:


> hugely expensive



I'd be more specific but I've a feeling there's some toxic little dig in the offing, so I'll leave it thanks.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Um, ethics? Ever heard of that before?
> I began my efforts to buy ear second hand years before I gave up making part of my living playing music. It's nice to know it was some kind of magical, superhuman effort that's far too hard for mere mortals to achieve. You know, rather than just being a moral and ethical decision that anyone could make.


But you're just an amateur dabbler not a professional. Who are you to tell actual working professionals who need to have rock-solid gear they can rely on, tour after tour, what they should use? 

I've bought second mixers from reputable sourced and some have been fucking shit. One was so bad it could have lost me an important paying gig. So I bought a new one backed by a warranty, which I had to later use.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

Rational change choices, like I don’t know, I want to get a new toaster that works, those when you have achieved them it’s really easy to say yes that solved my problem and my life is better now.
The more meaningful changes that you long for for non-simple reasons, for reasons more in the sphere of emotion and visions of a different future, like leaving your partner or job or moving to a different town, those are never as easy to predict or to say afterwards yep that solved my problem / fulfilled my hopes are they.
I mean, just saying as kabbes was that life must now be better due to brexit for everyone who wanted to brexit for deeply felt reasons to do with identity and hopes rather than basic practical stuff just doesn’t make sense does it. Those changes can sometimes be really disappointing cos your hopes aren’t met at all.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, thanks for that. So you're saying that people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes?


no, if i was saying that i would have said something along the lines of people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes. i was responding to your 'there'd be no secondhand hand gear if people didn't buy new gear', and pointed out three sources of gear arriving on the secondhand market without new gear being bought. and obvs you don't need to wait for this to happen because it happens every day.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> But you're just an amateur dabbler not a professional.



you only read the bits of posts you want to argue with don't you?


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no, if i was saying that i would have said something along the lines of people who need critical gear for their job should just retire and wait until someone dies, loses interest or downsizes. i was responding to your 'there'd be no secondhand hand gear if people didn't buy new gear', and pointed out three sources of gear arriving on the secondhand market without new gear being bought. and obvs you don't need to wait for this to happen because it happens every day.


This is painful. 

However you spin it, someone clearly has to buy new gear for second hand gear to exist.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 3, 2021)

What various people are saying, editor, is that Brexit is bigger than VAT charges on imported goods, and no amount of examples of it is going to change that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> But you're just an amateur dabbler not a professional.


that's a bit off, you're telling someone who has told you several times they years of experience working as a musician that they're merely a dillettante.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

Flavour said:


> What various people are saying, editor, is that Brexit is bigger than VAT charges on imported goods, and no amount of examples of it is going to change that.


Yes, I am aware of this. I just gave an example of what happened to a friend of mine as it was topical.

I kind of expected people to express sympathy and move on, but apparently it's all his fault, he's a supporter of sweatshop regimes and it's wrong to by anything new.


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> that's a bit off, you're telling someone who has told you several times they years of experience working as a musician that they're merely a dillettante.


It's actually quite accurate (see the other thread) but I'm sure he appreciates your backing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> This is painful.
> 
> However you spin it, someone clearly has to buy new gear for second hand gear to exist.


someone has to at some point in the past have bought anything for used clothes, books, furniture etc to exist. but as i read it (and only now do you differ with me) you meant the only source of secondhand gear is when people trade up and buy new stuff. this should have been obvious when i said ' there are other sources of secondhand gear than simply people casting off after upgrading'. that was the point for you to bring up this facile point. if it deserves to be aired at all.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I mean, just saying as kabbes was that life must now be better due to brexit for everyone who wanted to brexit for deeply felt reasons to do with identity and hopes rather than basic practical stuff just doesn’t make sense does it. Those changes can sometimes be really disappointing cos your hopes aren’t met at all.


We’re one month in.  What more do you expect at this point?


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

Flavour said:


> What various people are saying, editor, is that Brexit is bigger than VAT charges on imported goods, and no amount of examples of it is going to change that.



Also from my personal PoV in this particular context, that the wellbeing of workers in poor countries is of some importance.




editor said:


> I kind of expected people to express sympathy and move on, but apparently it's all his fault, he's a supporter of sweatshop regimes and it's wrong to by anything new.



This black-and-white thinking does nobody any good (though I'm sure you've discovered it's great for clicks...)

Oh, and buying gear has ethical implications. Nobody's laying down the law there or even being especially judgemental (though tbh you make it hard not to be, since you are so very, very often) but surely these are to be _considered_, at least? I mean it's fucking 2021, not 1970.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> It's actually quite accurate (see the other thread)



Cross thread beef? Surely not.
Oh, you missed the bit where I was a working musician till 2012. The past is another country though I guess. One with terrible import tariffs, by the look of it.

And now, I'm going to try and back the fuck off. This is all off-topic and the back-and-forth is bad news for my post count / reaction score ratio


----------



## 2hats (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Brexit gave the UK the freedom to enter into procurement arrangements of our own which is why we are so far ahead of the EU in getting our vaccine.


Incorrect. EU countries are free to negotiate their own separate contracts with vaccine manufacturers and some have chosen to do so.

We are ahead because huge sums of public money were pumped into the development of particular vaccines and rolling reviews were conducted. All of which was done whilst we were in transition and thus subject to any applicable EU regulations.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

editor said:


> It's actually quite accurate (see the other thread) but I'm sure he appreciates your backing.


it's by no means accurate as someone who has spent years working as a musician can't honestly be described as a dabbler. on your terms then all former footballers are now amateur dabblers in the game. putting people like ian wright or eric cantona on the same basis as sunday league footballers on hackney marshes in their knowledge and skill of the game. darcy bussell now an amateur dabbler at dance, as she no longer graces the stage at the ballet.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> We’re one month in.  What more do you expect at this point?


I had thought it was your case that most people who voted for Brexit were better off in some sort of psychological or spiritual way, regardless of material changes to their situation. 

If you're really just saying that those material changes only matter once their impact is felt, then this seems much less controversial.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2021)

Fwiw editor I can recommend a few reliable UK suppliers of audio gear.


----------



## pesh (Feb 3, 2021)

yeah, Andertons for one.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> We’re one month in.  What more do you expect at this point?


You said


kabbes said:


> There is a proportion of the population that are happier now, which definitely comprises a “better time”.


Now you’re saying maybe they’re not happier now but might be, contingent on various things happening, in the future?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> You said
> 
> Now you’re saying maybe they’re not happier now but might be, contingent on various things happening, in the future?


Sadly, some of the things that might be making them happier right now are based on lies, such as the lie that the UK is ahead of the game on vaccines because of brexit.

I suspect we're going to hear a lot more of this kind of thing. Examples of stuff that would not have been possible inside the EU that actually would have been possible inside the EU. There's a long tradition of this kind of bullshit, after all. Straightening our bananas.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> You said
> 
> Now you’re saying maybe they’re not happier now but might be, contingent on various things happening, in the future?


I’m not sure how you get that.  I’m saying that achieving their aim of Brexit is positive for them.  Beyond that immediate positive effect, what more could you possibly expect from just one month’s separation from EU oversight?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Sadly, some of the things that might be making them happier right now are based on lies, such as the lie that the UK is ahead of the game on vaccines because of brexit.


Even I fell for that one initially.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 3, 2021)

pesh said:


> yeah, Andertons for one.



Yup. Bax music also has good prices. I bought some synths from them last year and no problems at all, warranty on everything etc.

Nothing's ever quite as cheap as Thomann or Woodbrass, but with all this brexit shite that edge is gone.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I’m not sure how you get that.  I’m saying that achieving their aim of Brexit is positive for them.  Beyond that immediate positive effect, what more could you possibly expect from just one month’s separation from EU oversight?


It seems a bit like you are saying that people who wanted a thing are pleased now they have got it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I had thought it was your case that most people who voted for Brexit were better off in some sort of psychological or spiritual way, regardless of material changes to their situation.
> 
> If you're really just saying that those material changes only matter once their impact is felt, then this seems much less controversial.


This whole interpretation is one predicated on your ideological understanding of what people do and should want from political change.  It’s not a case of being right or wrong, it’s just trying to measure apples using oranges.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It seems a bit like you are saying that people who wanted a thing are pleased now they have got it.


Right.  That’s not so controversial, surely?  And yet it seems to be hard to grasp by people who can’t get to grips with the idea that anybody could have wanted that thing in the first place.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Right.  That’s not so controversial, surely?  And yet it seems to be hard to grasp by people who can’t get to grips with the idea that anybody could have wanted that thing in the first place.


Put it in £s for them.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

Im not aware of experiencing less happiness now in any noticeable way, due to brexit happening. So it can’t follow that directly that the people who voted the other way 5 years ago are happier as a result can it?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Im not aware of experiencing less happiness now in any noticeable way, due to brexit happening. So it can’t follow that directly that the people who voted the other way 5 years ago are happier as a result can it?


This is not how to understand the way in which others construct their world, however tempting it might be.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This is not how to understand the way in which others construct their world, however tempting it might be.


It's not tempting. It's not a choice. It's how their world is constituted. It's foundational to everything that they attach importance to.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Right.  That’s not so controversial, surely?  And yet it seems to be hard to grasp by people who can’t get to grips with the idea that anybody could have wanted that thing in the first place.


Pretty straightforward but will fully misunderstood. I voted leave and am pleased we have left. Most leave voters I know agree.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You've got a bike, haven't you?



"Editors next job could be in Cyber"


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Right.  That’s not so controversial, surely?  And yet it seems to be hard to grasp by people who can’t get to grips with the idea that anybody could have wanted that thing in the first place.


Very obviously not controversial or hard to grasp. Couldn't have been explained better.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

Not only must they be right, but the_ methods_ used to reach that rightness must be right. And also, that sort of non-right-thought process is wrong. Stop it.

Jesus fucking christ.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You've got a bike, haven't you?



Sadly, Norman Tebbit saying ''my dad didn't riot, he got on his bike'' seems to have has forever poisoned the idea of taking personal responsibility for the living you make. As if supporting and working for socialism is somehow in opposition to that (here's a clue: it's not)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I was asked many times, I refused and yes I appreciate I was in a privileged position and many people would find it harder to do than I did. The problem was never the EU legislation it was UK governments that were less than enthusiatic about enforcing it.


Fairer to say that the problem was never the EU legislation it was that EU states were less than enthusiastic about enforcing it .


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

Must be said that often even the most ardent pro EU people in Europe are more critical of it than some Remain posters on here .


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must be said that often even the most ardent pro EU people in Europe are more critical of it than some Remain posters on here .


Remain has become part of the culture of liberalism in the UK.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2021)

> In a related development* Michael Gove*, the Cabinet Office minister, has used a letter (pdf) to the European commission’s vice-president, Maroš Šefčovič, to ask for some of the “grace period” exemptions from the Northern Ireland protocol rules to continue until 1 January 2023. That would mean exemptions that were only supposed to be in place for a few months lasting two years.
> 
> Gove also hints the government may go further if the protocol cannot be made to work for the people of Northern Ireland, reinforcing what Boris Johnson said in the Commons about the UK being willing to invoke article 16 of the protocol. Gove writes:
> 
> I must make clear that the UK government seeks urgent resolution of these problems in the context of our obligations to seek commonly acceptable solutions, and recognising the pressing need to restore confidence among people in Northern Ireland that the Belfast ‘Good Friday’ agreement is being respected in all its dimensions. If it is not possible to agree a way forward in the way we propose, then the UK will consider using all instruments at its disposal


----------



## gosub (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I thought everyone agreed that despite what Johnson said the UK’s vaccine rollout could have progressed exactly the same without brexit. Is that not true?



No at the very least pharma went out of its way to get UK licensing done ahead of transition end


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

gosub said:


> No at the very least pharma went out of its way to get UK licensing done ahead of transition end


Is there evidence that this was a big motivation without which it wouldn't have happened as it did? My memory is that the UK govt was extremely keen to get it done asap. Nobody is saying it would have been exactly the same without brexit, merely that it could have been, that there is nothing about brexit that was necessary to make it happen as it did.

This is Johnson talking about it on 31 December. It's pretty important to get this right given the Tories are trumpeting it as a brexit success. 



> Pioneered in a UK that is also free to do things differently, and if necessary better, than our friends in the EU.



Brexit has given UK chance to 'pioneer' vaccines, says Boris Johnson in New Year message

The whole of that speech is about one thing. Linking the vaccine to brexit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Remain has become part of the culture of liberalism in the UK.


It's their  Dolchstoßlegende.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2021)

Remain might be part of the culture of something or other, but it is also part of the issue of practicalities.
There are things going on around form filling and fees and fish and declarations and traffic queues and workers protections and freedom of movement and costs, amongst other practical (not libertarian, not ideological, not especially cultural) things....oh and the practicalities of dealing with a land border between two different systems.
Remain for many is actually about the gains and losses in practical terms.
What seems to be emerging is something that has been true from the start, that brexiteers who go on about the evils of the EU don't have practical solutions for the problems they have called on. They can loll about with their long words and other manifestations of their faux justification verbal diarrhoea, but they can't deal with, for example, the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland.
I believe brexit voters are cowardly and cover their cowardice with elaborate finger jabbing and pointing. 
Maybe they would be better served thinking up 'cultural' events for their festival of brexit Britain, or building hard standing washing and toilet facilities on the site of the old Manston airport.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

philosophical said:


> the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland.


it's only nascent if you haven't been paying attention for 23 years


----------



## teuchter (Feb 3, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> "Editors next job could be in Cyber"


Some might say it already is, and we're it.


----------



## andysays (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> Im not aware of experiencing less happiness now in any noticeable way, due to brexit happening. So it can’t follow that directly that the people who voted the other way 5 years ago are happier as a result can it?


Tbh, there were people queuing up on threads here to say how upset they were that Leave had won, as soon as the result was announced, and before any of us knew how it would actually unfold.

You may not be one of them, but there are people on both sides whose primary driver on this appears to be a gut sense of happiness or unhappiness (not necessarily anything wrong with that), which they then seek to justify with a mixture of material and moral arguments.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> It's their  Dolchstoßlegende.


Fucks sake. I’m going to have to look that up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fucks sake. I’m going to have to look that up.


I'm being all european. It ain't good.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's only nascent if you haven't been paying attention for 23 years


I have been paying attention for a lot longer than 23 years.
If it helps you, I used nascent to refer to the recent upsurge of something that had been relatively quiet in recent times, but the problem having been given new energy because of the brexit vote.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fucks sake. I’m going to have to look that up.


stab in the back myth


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> I'm being all european. It ain't good.


We are all European.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> stab in the back myth


Thanks


----------



## Raheem (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fucks sake. I’m going to have to look that up.


You need to look that up? Talk about a stereotypical leave voter...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Thanks


i had to look it up too


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Fwiw editor I can recommend a few reliable UK suppliers of audio gear.


I almost always buy via UK suppliers, but my mate has been struggling for cash and went for the big discount (now totally cancelled out by the new excess charges)  offered by thomann.de.  He had no idea he was going to be hit with a huge 33% surcharge.


----------



## Smangus (Feb 3, 2021)

I was following this thread quite well until I read Pickman's post which referenced Ian Wright , Eric Cantona and Darcy Bussell all at once, then my head imploded.... 🥶


----------



## Flavour (Feb 3, 2021)

Let's see what the remainers have to say about the crushing austerity that the ex-ECB Bank chief Mario Draghi will now impose on Italy because the EU _demands it _in order to give them access to "recovery funds" they just magicked out of thin air


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Let's see what the remainers have to say about the crushing austerity that the ex-ECB Bank chief Mario Draghi will now impose on Italy because the EU _demands it _in order to give them access to "recovery funds" they just magicked out of thin air


I didn't know about that. I'd probably say something similar to what I said when the EU was screwing Greece, or when the IMF is screwing _insert name from a long list of countries here_, ie roundly condemn it.

However, as with Greece, given that the UK wasn't in the eurozone, it doesn't have a direct bearing on what would have happened to the UK inside the EU.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 3, 2021)

Dr. Furface said:


> 'David Davis in particular had this very crude 1980s approach to negotiation. I know David quite well, I knew him before I went into politics – David’s backstory is that he was the trouble-shooter for Tate & Lyle. When there was a problem, they sent David Davis. Shut down a refinery, fire a load of people, get rid of the troublemakers: the bare-knuckle fighter. That’s how he liked to see himself. David Davis’ approach to negotiation is you slap it on the table, you lean across, and you eyeball them. If they don’t give way immediately, you say, ‘I’ll see you round the back.’ That was always his view on this. ‘We’ve got the money, they want our money, so we wave a cheque at them then we stick it in our back pocket and we say, ‘Right, show us what you’ve got’. In the end, they’ll want our money. They’ll want access to our market. How long is this going to take, 15 minutes? Give me 15 minutes in a room with these people. I’ll sort them out.’ That was his view of the world, and it was widely shared among the Brexiteers.'


----------



## editor (Feb 3, 2021)

Journalists are getting fucked over too according to my union 



> British journalists based in Europe, a group to which about 440 National Union of Journalists members are thought to belong, have also been left unsure whether they can take short trips to work in a third country (further to the UK or their host EU member state).
> 
> NUJ general secretary Michelle Stanistreet has written to President of the European Commission Ursula von der Leyen to raise the issue.
> 
> ...











						Journalism after Brexit in the UK: Impact of the deal (or no deal for media)
					

Following UK exit from the EU we look at how Brexit affects journalism for those working in the UK and EU and those trying to sue them.




					www.pressgazette.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A united Ireland can happen out of this mess.


I think your lot call these _teething problems_ 'bumps along the way', not a mess. Off to the re-education lorry park for you TC!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 3, 2021)

It's such a rubbish deal, isn't it? Almost like it wasn't thought through properly and was signed in a panic. 

Butchers referenced me earlier for comments made about potential rioting and protests in the case of no deal chaos. To provide some context to that, it was said while also saying that I didn't think there was any realistic chance of no deal happening, regardless of the brinksmanship and bluffing. I was pretty consistent in saying that, and I think events have borne me out. Ultimately Johnson signed a shit deal at the last minute in order to avoid the chaos of no deal. And the shitness of that panicked deal is gradually being revealed bit by ill-considered bit.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's such a rubbish deal, isn't it? Almost like it wasn't thought through properly and was signed in a panic.
> 
> Butchers referenced me earlier for comments made about potential rioting and protests in the case of no deal chaos. To provide some context to that, it was said while also saying that I didn't think there was any realistic chance of no deal happening, regardless of the brinksmanship and bluffing. I was pretty consistent in saying that, and I think events have borne me out. Ultimately Johnson signed a shit deal at the last minute in order to avoid the chaos of no deal. And the shitness of that panicked deal is gradually being revealed bit by ill-considered bit.


Diff worlds.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Remain has become part of the culture of liberalism in the UK.


What is sad is that there was an argument, however flawed imo, to stay in , vote for a labour government and then push for reform.There is a Euro group of MPs with a remain and reform position , the  European United Left/Nordic Green Left . Over here both the Communist Party and Bloc Esquerda are members. In the case of the latter two parties for example they have been very critical of the EU over the vaccine delivery and have argued that Portugal should purchase vaccines outside the EU procurement , produce the vaccine in Portugal through a state owned company , either buy the patent or more abstractly the patent etc. 
I'm not sure what ever happened to the remain and reform  argument in the UK , it seemed to sink without trace and I cant remember actually seeing  any suggested reforms . Effectively without that critical voice  left remain just gets collapses into a mire,  ironically  of 'The EU love it or leave it'. I've seen arguments that suggest that to be critical of the EU is to play into the hands of Boris Johnson, where in fact I think that there is a case that  not to be critical of it, where it is warranted , does exactly that.  It might be a salient point for left remainers to revisit that reform agenda if they want to campaign  on a more convincing platform than operation fear.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 3, 2021)

The EU is functioning exactly as it was designed to do.  Where is the incentive to reform it?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

I don’t recollect any remainer demands for reform.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The EU is functioning exactly as it was designed to do.  Where is the incentive to return it?


The incentive to reform from within will come via not wanting other countries to leave.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

I  asked five years go where are the remain demands. Not a single reply. Nothing. Still, tell me  how you would reform the eu...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I don’t recollect any remainer demands for reform.


Cameron demanded crumbs


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Cameron demanded crumbs


Well I hadn’t considered the torys and I should have done. The EU leaders had a good laugh kissing each other on the tv when he met them then completely cunting him off. 
I was more thinking of the pro remainers debating here. 
A bit of hand wringing about the Greeks but that was it. Full steam ahead. No concessions acceptable.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

I don’t understand what’s going on but michael gove has according to this written to the EU saying, you were idiotic enough to threaten an article 16 last week. That was really bad. Now to put things right you must agree to this list of our demands or else we will do an article 16?
Seems ungreat.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what’s going on but michael gove has written to the EU saying, you were idiotic enough to threaten an article 16 last week. That was really bad. Now to put things right you must agree to this list of our demands or else will do an article 16?
> Seems ungreat.



Article 16 was intended for emergency use only. The EU overturned that and have fuelled the sectarian fire. Now they are getting requested to eat up what they dished out.


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Article 16 was intended for emergency use only. The EU overturned that and have fuelled the sectarian fire. Now they are getting requested to eat up what they dished out.


If the UK triggered article 16 it would fuel the fire less? I don’t get it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> If the UK triggered article 16 it would fuel the fire less? I don’t get it.


did you notice the bit where the irish government only found about the commission's decision from twitter?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

28 days notice, Eu don't care.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

There is no capitol for bimbles to storm, not by luck


----------



## bimble (Feb 3, 2021)

I kind of like being painted as some sort of extremist Remoaner but really am not, fully accept that the UK has left, you know. No desire to storm anything or campaign to rejoin either.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

god, you arrogant preening prick.

Now i'm part of the game


----------



## belboid (Feb 3, 2021)

There were several eu reform plans. Some, like varoufakis’ Diem25, were quite decent.  The problem was and remains that there’s no way to implement them, no matter who wins what elections.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what’s going on but michael gove has according to this written to the EU saying, you were idiotic enough to threaten an article 16 last week. That was really bad. Now to put things right you must agree to this list of our demands or else we will do an article 16?
> Seems ungreat.



Gove talking about a completely different border, mind.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 3, 2021)

belboid said:


> There were several eu reform plans. Some, like varoufakis’ Diem25, were quite decent.  The problem was and remains that there’s no way to implement them, no matter who wins what elections.


Why not?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 3, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what’s going on but michael gove has according to this written to the EU saying, you were idiotic enough to threaten an article 16 last week. That was really bad. Now to put things right you must agree to this list of our demands or else we will do an article 16?
> Seems ungreat.



tbf the Tories did it the weekend before last to, even before the drunk intern cancelled Ireland. Clearly it's just another fun middle class habit Michaels addicted to.









						Watch: We will have 'no hesitation' in triggering Article 16 if necessary, says Boris Johnson
					

Prime Minister Boris Johnson has said his Government will have "no hesitation" in triggering Article 16 of the Northern Ireland protocol if 'disproportionate' problems arise result of the legislation.




					www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 3, 2021)

UK asks EU for Brexit grace period extension to 2023, BBC reports
					

Britain has asked for an extension until 2023 of a grace period on checks that would be conducted on trade moving between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom to soften the Brexit impact on the province, the BBC reported.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## bimble (Feb 4, 2021)

butchersapron said:


> god, you arrogant preening prick.
> 
> Now i'm part of the game


Good morning to you too.  
I was just explaining that no, 'bimbles' would not be storming the Capitol if there was a Capitol.
Don't know if you meant an EU Capitol, storming it demanding to be let back in or what but anyway.

Brexit has happened, it's far from the first time i've voted on the side of the minority & lost. Not wildly enthusiastic or optimistic about it but tbh am only here on this thread because a) i'm a bit interested in how the reality of it is going and b) i've not got a lot else better to do at the moment. I live here too so of course i want the thing to turn out well in the long run.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> UK asks EU for Brexit grace period extension to 2023, BBC reports
> 
> 
> Britain has asked for an extension until 2023 of a grace period on checks that would be conducted on trade moving between Northern Ireland and the rest of the United Kingdom to soften the Brexit impact on the province, the BBC reported.
> ...



well if Irish government are pouring cold water on it I dont think its going to get very far








						No sweeping change to Northern Ireland protocol, Ireland says
					

The European Union is considering demands by Britain and some Northern Irish politicians to extend grace periods for goods checks, but post-Brexit trade arrangements for the province will not change much, Ireland's foreign minister said.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well if Irish government are pouring cold water on it I dont think its going to get very far
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course it won't; this was just Gove seeing an opportunity to cuntstand in front of those that might back him in future.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Good morning to you too.
> I was just explaining that no, 'bimbles' would not be storming the Capitol if there was a Capitol.
> Don't know if you meant an EU Capitol, storming it demanding to be let back in or what but anyway.
> 
> Brexit has happened, it's far from the first time i've voted on the side of the minority & lost. Not wildly enthusiastic or optimistic about it but tbh am only here on this thread because a) i'm a bit interested in how the reality of it is going and b) i've not got a lot else better to do at the moment. I live here too so of course i want the thing to turn out well in the long run.


ah you're declaring yourself a minoritarian, a menshevik so to speak


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Of course it won't; this was just Gove seeing an opportunity to cuntstand in front of those that might back him in future.


oh
the impression its left me with is the oven ready deal is shit and northern ireland is hurting from it, and the grace period is desperately needed to be extended for at least two more years, so if it isnt extended it reflects badly on the deal itself and the tory government more broadly. if this is a move to say 'look how good i am at politics' its not really worked on me, though maybe im not the target audience for such genius
Gove can write an ineffective letter to clear up mess of his own making, well done him


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> well if Irish government are pouring cold water on it I dont think its going to get very far
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Interesting take on "cold water". All he's saying is that the NIP is unlikely to change. He also said that 'the Irish perspective is the hope the EU will show some flexibility on this'. The_ Irish _don't give a fuck about checks on goods between GB and Northern Ireland. If the UK and Ireland could kick that can down the road forever I'm pretty sure they would and this is the first attempt to do so.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Interesting take on "cold water". All he's saying is that the NIP is unlikely to change. He also said that 'the Irish perspective is the hope the EU will show some flexibility on this'. The Irish don't give a fuck about checks on goods between GB and Northern Ireland. If the UK and Ireland could kick that can down the road forever I'm pretty sure they would and this is the first attempt to do so.


The Irish are stuck in the middle over brexit, have been from the start. Meanwhile the DUP continues to demand unicorns. Will they ever admit that supporting brexit was an appalling mistake on their part, that Martin McGuinness was right?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Interesting take on "cold water". All he's saying is that the NIP is unlikely to change. He also said that 'the Irish perspective is the hope the EU will show some flexibility on this'. The_ Irish _don't give a fuck about checks on goods between GB and Northern Ireland. If the UK and Ireland could kick that can down the road forever I'm pretty sure they would and this is the first attempt to do so.


Will the EU take into consideration (at all) the view of the Irish?


----------



## Flavour (Feb 4, 2021)

Maybe in future when you are ordering stuff you can pay the courier a small fee to re-route through the Dublin-Belfast-Liverpool route and therefore avoid VAT and shit


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> oh
> the impression its left me with is the oven ready deal is shit and northern ireland is hurting from it, and the grace period is desperately needed to be extended for at least two more years, so if it isnt extended it reflects badly on the deal itself and the tory government more broadly. if this is a move to say 'look how good i am at politics' its not really worked on me, though maybe im not the target audience for such genius
> Gove can write an ineffective letter to clear up mess of his own making, well done him


Well, according to the regime this deal never was the fabled 'oven ready' deal; they claim they were talking about the WA.
Of course it's shit for some NI businesses but, with an 80 seat majority, Johnson didn't have to worry about the province or their fuckwit politicians; the was not going to get in the way of the prize.

Gove has just seized on the supra-state's vaccine fuck-up to draw attention to the other border.

Very little will change.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Interesting take on "cold water". All he's saying is that the NIP is unlikely to change. He also said that 'the Irish perspective is the hope the EU will show some flexibility on this'. The Irish don't give a fuck about checks on goods between GB and Northern Ireland.



This really - the issue of the border and not inflaming fisticuffs is the absolute holy-of-holy of Irish political objectives, I would say it - in the end -probably equals (and possibly just edges past) the Irish commitment to membership of the Single Market and Customs Union. 

They are in a difficult position, but they are politically astute enough to grasp that however well intentioned the current NI arrangements aren't working, and that either 'something better' replaces them, or at some point to UK government will pull the big handle due to ever-increacing political dissatisfaction. The IG would far rather have some influence over what and when than none, so they will be pushing within the EU for some movement. 

The EU personalities and structures might be uncomfortably indifferent to the problems - and therefore political/other consequences - of the NIP within NI, but I promise you that the Irish Government isn't.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 4, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Maybe in future when you are ordering stuff you can pay the courier a small fee to re-route through the Dublin-Belfast-Liverpool route and therefore avoid VAT and shit


This is why the agreement isn't going to change, If there is free movement of goods between NI and UK and then between NI and EU enabling people to effectively choose wherever they pay their taxes then its only a matter of time before some Irish entrepreneurs see a gap in the market and step up to offer the service both ways Yay for free enterprise!


----------



## Flavour (Feb 4, 2021)

Well I for one think it's great that all those unemployed ex-paras can relight the smuggling wick and get back to business. A brexit victory, you might say


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well, according to the regime this deal never was the fabled 'oven ready' deal; they claim they were talking about the WA.


Yes but that's a fib. We shouldn't go along with it.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The Irish are stuck in the middle over brexit, have been from the start.


That was always going to be the case though wasn't it. The thinking here is probably that if this get pushed down the road for a couple of years, then maybe another couple, then another ... the EU will eventually realise that the UK isn't using NI as a back door to the flood them with poisonous untaxed food (or if they are it isn't working very well) and stop caring, or that Ireland unites and the problem goes away.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes but that's a fib. We shouldn't go along with it.


Yes, of course it was one of the many lies...and no I wasn't going along with it, merely pointing out that Johnson's Irish seas border cave-in was never 'oven-ready' WTFTM.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That was always going to be the case though wasn't it. The thinking here is probably that if this get pushed down the road for a couple of years, then maybe another couple, then another ... the EU will eventually realise that the UK isn't using NI as a back door to the flood them with poisonous untaxed food (or if they are it isn't working very well) and stop caring.



I think the IG would be happy to see a 'these are the rules, but as long as people don't take the piss no one applies them for the sake of a quiet life' approach, but one of the problems the EU has in this regard is that it's a very legalistic organisation rather than a very political one. You could probably argue that the member states could live with the 'blind eye' solution, but the EU structures - and the commission- couldn't.

This comes back to the much wider political issue of the EU not being the servant of the member states, but - if not their master, then their equal.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2021)

Now look what's happening. How can you defend this, Brexiters?


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 4, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Now look what's happening. How can you defend this, Brexiters?



It's Britain moving further from mainland Europe.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

Sounds like the Guardian spoke with a very charitable NI voter...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> It's Britain moving further from mainland Europe.


& looks like the sort of mass movement born of the erosion and undercutting of trust and constant weathering of cynicism seen here in Brexitland...


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> It's Britain moving further from mainland Europe.


It's a portion of Britain moving closer to mainland Europe, surely.


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 4, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's a portion of Britain moving closer to mainland Europe, surely.


Good riddance to bad rubbish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> It's Britain moving further from mainland Europe.


it's a drill for when boris johnson visits


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's a portion of Britain moving closer to mainland Europe, surely.


No, the talus debris cone will quickly be transported away  along the coastline by wave action, tidal scour and sediment cell currents , leaving the gap between the land mass either side of the channel marginally wider. fishfinger was right; you are wrong.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 4, 2021)

I can't see them ignoring food imports being slipped over the border into the EU if we start getting American antibiotic fed meat.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yes, of course it was one of the many lies...and no I wasn't going along with it, merely pointing out that Johnson's Irish seas border cave-in was never 'oven-ready' WTFTM.


does it need pointing out that boris johnson has never used an oven?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I can't see them ignoring food imports being slipped over the border into the EU if we start getting American antibiotic fed meat.


It will be very surprising if Gove gets anything more than a brief, temporary extension to the 'grace periods'. But that won't bother Gove; the impression that he's stood up to the supra-state is already fixed...whatever the outcome. Job done.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> does it need pointing out that boris johnson has never used an oven?


Insert bun-based 'jokes' here?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Insert bun-based 'jokes' here?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 4, 2021)

brogdale said:


> It will be very surprising if Gove gets anything more than a brief, temporary extension to the 'grace periods'. But that won't bother Gove; the impression that he's stood up to the supra-state is already fixed...whatever the outcome. Job done.



More nuanced than that - Gove was always, of the brexiteers, the one most keen on a deal. His tweeting/briefing post-gangfuck has been the most conciliatory: he's positioning himself not just as (even?) as the brexiteers brexiteer, but as the 'yes, if we really have to's brexiteer.

if he was going for the foaming loon vote he'd be honking off, and _certainly _not talking about extension periods.

He's certainly positioning himself for when the Great Leader wanders into glorious retirement though, no argument about that...


----------



## bimble (Feb 4, 2021)

Probably a good news story from the baby bee’s perspective.








						Brexit rules mean 15m baby bees may be seized and burned, says beekeeper
					

Patrick Murfet says he tried to import bees via Northern Ireland but was told they would be destroyed




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

kebabking said:


> More nuanced than that - Gove was always, of the brexiteers, the one most keen on a deal. His tweeting/briefing post-gangfuck has been the most conciliatory: he's positioning himself not just as (even?) as the brexiteers brexiteer, but as the 'yes, if we really have to's brexiteer.
> 
> if he was going for the foaming loon vote he'd be honking off, and _certainly _not talking about extension periods.
> 
> He's certainly positioning himself for when the Great Leader wanders into glorious retirement though, no argument about that...


Not forgetting that it was Gove himself, charged by Johnson with leading the 'parallel negotiations', that struck the NI element of the deal. So he is also motivated to attempt to clear up his own shit here, lest it be used against him by Sunak's 'clean-skin' campaign.


----------



## Supine (Feb 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Probably a good news story from the baby bee’s perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



being killed? not a great outcome for them!


----------



## philosophical (Feb 4, 2021)

The Republic of Ireland is the EU as far as the UK is concerned regarding one aspect of things.
That aspect being that the vote was for the UK to leave the EU.
Pretty straightforward.
Brexit voters going on about a United Ireland are tossers who _only now _seeing how things are unfolding are putting that into the mix in order to try to give their destructive action some meaning.


----------



## bimble (Feb 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> being killed? not a great outcome for them!


I think they get to stay in Italy , to stop them being killed.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> View attachment 252624


No notes necessary 🇬🇧


----------



## Raheem (Feb 4, 2021)

bimble said:


> Probably a good news story from the baby bee’s perspective.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


15m baby bees! That's bigger than a bus!


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Brexit voters going on about a United Ireland are tossers who _only now _seeing how things are unfolding are putting that into the mix in order to try to give their destructive action some meaning.


Don’t be silly. That was only mentioned in the context of negating the NIP and removing the land border between the U.K. and the EU, not as a potential benefit of Brexit which will probably never happen.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 4, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Don’t be silly. That was only mentioned in the context of negating the NIP and removing the land border between the U.K. and the EU, not as a potential benefit of Brexit which will probably never happen.


Musings about a United Ireland have certainly been going on since the brexit vote, not just now since the Northern Ireland Protocol was dreamed up.
It looks to be like a diversion by brexit supporters as a desperate attempt to say 'See. When I voted leave I was secretly doing everybody a favour by actually voting that way as a sneaky route to a United Ireland'.
The brexit vote was to leave. Leave means a border between two different systems. How to manage and run that land border in Ireland remains, as it has been since the vote, the problem.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

Has that idiot I can see people replying to acknowledged yet that Brexit wasn’t actually impossible after all?  Or is he still living in a la-la-land where it will never happen?  I am loathe to take him off ignore to find out.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Has that idiot I can see people replying to acknowledged yet that Brexit wasn’t actually impossible after all?  Or is he still living in a la-la-land where it will never happen?  I am loathe to take him off ignore to find out.


Which idiot?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Which idiot?


The one who was insisting it would literally be impossible for the UK to leave the EU because the Ireland border issue was literally impossible to find a way around


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The one who was insisting it would literally be impossible for the UK to leave the EU because the Ireland border issue was literally impossible to find a way around


I think you mean philosophical. I stuck the loon on ignore ages ago when he wanted to punish leave voters, make them suffer.

This thread has a few of those types hence me asking which idiot.


----------



## Winot (Feb 4, 2021)

Report from the Scottish Affairs Committee. I wish these businesses had been this vocal over the last 4 years because nothing that has happened is a surprise.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I think you mean philosophical. I stuck the loon on ignore ages ago when he wanted to punish leave voters, make them suffer.
> 
> This thread has a few of those types hence me asking which idiot.


You don’t have Spymaster on ignore though, do you?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The one who was insisting it would literally be impossible for the UK to leave the EU because the Ireland border issue was literally impossible to find a way around


Or do you mean remain riot boy who predicted insurrection by Waitrose customers?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You don’t have Spymaster on ignore though, do you?


No


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No


So you can see that Spymaster is quoting philosophical


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Or do you mean remain riot boy who predicted insurrection by Waitrose customers?


Oh, that happened.  Nobody noticed though because they queued politely.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> So you can see that Spymaster is quoting philosophical


So that idiot. Life is simpler if you mute the fucker.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> It's Britain moving further from mainland Europe.


The cliff looked like it was reaching towards France. Arrest that rubble.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> So that idiot. Life is simpler if you mute the fucker.


I did a long time ago.  Did you not read what I actually wrote?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

Winot said:


> Report from the Scottish Affairs Committee. I wish these businesses had been this vocal over the last 4 years because nothing that has happened is a surprise.



thats a damning thread of quotes from the man - air of desperation in his voice



this guy in the thread represents the processors but aside from that two thirds of the scottish fleet are single small boats - from what i read they are particularly fucked and unable to find solutions due to limitations of scale and cost


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Has that idiot I can see people replying to acknowledged yet that Brexit wasn’t actually impossible after all?  Or is he still living in a la-la-land where it will never happen?  I am loathe to take him off ignore to find out.




In answer to your query, no he's still banging on about borders though.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 4, 2021)

More interesting bits from that thread - James Buchan quoted was interviewed back in 2017 as an ardent Brexiter








						Meet the Scots who can’t wait to finish Brexit and get out of the EU
					

They’re also very keen on migrant workers.




					www.newstatesman.com
				



but this is the key thing isnt it:


so much smoke, mirrors and also projection about this whole situation


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> More interesting bits from that thread - James Buchan quoted was interviewed back in 2017 as an ardent Brexiter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sounds like the vision that David Davis was pushing. Different standards for different markets, so you trade with the EU according to EU standards, with other places according to other standards. 

tbf Davis laid all this out in a pamphlet pre-referendum. It's what got him the job of Brexit Secretary. But it was all, always, totally unfeasible, a complete fantasy whose viability was pretty well summed up by the image of him sat at the negotiation table without a single paper in front of him. Not even worth a piece of paper to write it down on.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In answer to your query, no he's still banging on about borders though.


Fantastic


----------



## brogdale (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The cliff looked like it was reaching towards France. Arrest that rubble.


Don't blame the good Kentish lithology; any fule kno that if you increase the mass loading on a cliff-top the chances of mass movement increase. 

Blame Paddy Power


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Musings about a United Ireland have certainly been going on since the brexit vote, not just now since the Northern Ireland Protocol was dreamed up.
> It looks to be like a diversion by brexit supporters as a desperate attempt to say 'See. When I voted leave I was secretly doing everybody a favour by actually voting that way as a sneaky route to a United Ireland'.
> The brexit vote was to leave. Leave means a border between two different systems. How to manage and run that land border in Ireland remains, as it has been since the vote, the problem.


I haven’t seen much of that. The only times that I’ve noticed on here has been from Irish posters suggesting ironically that it might be an unintended bonus.


----------



## Supine (Feb 4, 2021)

Ah, the joys of spending £2000 to get a German taxi driver to bring an urgent spare part to the UK. Brexit bonus for him.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Ah, the joys of spending £2000 to get a German taxi driver to bring an urgent spare part to the UK. Brexit bonus for him.


Is your toilet working now, though?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I did a long time ago.  Did you not read what I actually wrote?


I only took you briefly off of ignore.


----------



## Supine (Feb 4, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Is your toilet working now, though?



luckily its only a pharma production line thats out of action. I have plenty of time to toilet in peace


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Or do you mean remain riot boy who predicted insurrection by Waitrose customers?


Ha ha who was that ?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 4, 2021)

Supine said:


> Ah, the joys of spending £2000 to get a German taxi driver to bring an urgent spare part to the UK. Brexit bonus for him.


Once the pandemic's over I'm happy to do this for £1,995. In case it happens again.


----------



## Supine (Feb 4, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Once the pandemic's over I'm happy to do this for £1,995. In case it happens again.



Move to Germany and pm your number


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ha ha who was that ?


The little baby Jesus.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

Was it the covid restrictions that put the kibosh on that ?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Was it the covid restrictions that put the kibosh on that ?


Yeah otherwise hundreds of thousands of the right sort of people would have taken to the streets and rioted in the way only militant liberals can riot.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 4, 2021)

Great shame I would have loved to have seen  EU Supergirl ,   the ' Jeanne d'Arc  of Post-Modernism'   and  'Une superheroine au service de l'europe'  , go out on her shield.

 

I was half hoping she might have come up with a ditty about the EU vaccine.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great shame I would have loved to have seen  EU Supergirl ,   the ' Jeanne d'Arc  of Post-Modernism'   and  'Une superheroine au service de l'europe'  , go out on her shield.
> 
> 
> 
> I was half hoping she might have come up with a ditty about the EU vaccine.



Fuck that’s awful. She should change Leave to Biden and sing it in the US.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 4, 2021)

It's the kind of music that brings a swift end to a generally terrible night at the local. Once the EU have forgotten who she is she can be deployed to clear pubs in a less confrontational manner, than the more traditional earpiece and black puffa jacket approach


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> It's the kind of music that brings a swift end to a generally terrible night at the local. Once the EU have forgotten who she is she can be deployed to clear pubs in a less confrontational manner, than the more traditional earpiece and black puffa jacket approach


As an alternative to playing “mistletoe and wine” by Cliff Richard.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> As an alternative to playing “mistletoe and wine” by Cliff Richard.



At least a duke box can't deliver a finger-wagging lecture on the lack of information surrounding customs or the length of the passport queue at Riga airport, I suppose.


----------



## Sprocket. (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> As an alternative to playing “mistletoe and wine” by Cliff Richard.



Or maybe more appropriately “Tom, Tom, Turnaround” by New World?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

Sprocket. said:


> Or maybe more appropriately “Tom, Tom, Turnaround” by New World?


Sing it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great shame I would have loved to have seen  EU Supergirl ,   the ' Jeanne d'Arc  of Post-Modernism'   and  'Une superheroine au service de l'europe'  , go out on her shield.
> 
> 
> 
> I was half hoping she might have come up with a ditty about the EU vaccine.



I think that's a valiant effort but it's very hard to get any sort of decent anthem to include the lyrics 'they commited electoral fraud' without having your artistic licence endorsed


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Great shame I would have loved to have seen  EU Supergirl ,   the ' Jeanne d'Arc  of Post-Modernism'   and  'Une superheroine au service de l'europe'  , go out on her shield.
> 
> 
> 
> I was half hoping she might have come up with a ditty about the EU vaccine.



Trump missed a trick by not signing her. She had a song ready to go.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No it’s consistent throughout his posts. What about the musos and BTW you are all bigots and stupid.


When did #editor call you stupid and a bigot. He asked the same question further down the thread. I note you have declined to qualify your statement. Quick to jab an accussasional finger, slow to qualify it is how you come across.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> When did #editor call you stupid and a bigot. He asked the same question further down the thread. I note you have declined to qualify your statement. Quick to jab an accussasional finger, slow to qualify it is how you come across.


I am summarising and paraphrasing 5 years of his posts on Brexit. He has insulted leave voters consistently.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 4, 2021)

In light of Gove's letter to the EU:



unroll here:









						Thread by @mdouganlpool on Thread Reader App
					

Thread by @mdouganlpool: Gove's letter to Commission about NI Protocol is deeply insulting - worthy successor to Trump's truth-twisting method of treating international diplomacy with same contempt & dishonesty as ...…




					threadreaderapp.com
				




Complete dishonesty seems to be the order of the day, but I think as in many other things that's SOP for this government.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

teqniq said:


> In light of Gove's letter to the EU:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He makes 14 points. Only one refers to article 16 getting enacted last week. He minimises it in a way that rather undermines his other points however true.
“Against that background: yes, EU was clumsy & insensitive to propose, albeit quickly retract, idea of "vaccine border".


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am summarising and paraphrasing 5 years of his posts on Brexit. He has insulted leave voters consistently.


And that justifies calling him a bigot. Somebody who is blindly obstinate in favour of their own cause. Kinda reminds me of your posts of the last 5 years. If the cap fits...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 4, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> And that justifies calling him a bigot. Somebody who is blindly obstinate in favour of their own cause. Kinda reminds me of your posts of the last 5 years. If the cap fits...


Who called him a bigot? I think your fan girl bit has caused you to misread.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 4, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> And that justifies calling him a bigot. Somebody who is blindly obstinate in favour of their own cause. Kinda reminds me of your posts of the last 5 years. If the cap fits...


TC hasn’t called anyone a bigot


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who called him a bigot? I think your fan girl bit has caused you to misread.


Define fan girl


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am summarising and paraphrasing 5 years of his posts on Brexit. He has insulted leave voters consistently.


Even the slipperiest politician would be embarrassed by that vague, obfuscating non-answer. Which is a lie, too.


----------



## editor (Feb 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Who called him a bigot? I think your fan girl bit has caused you to misread.


Oh, a gender insult. Classy.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

Well when you read the papers today looking for another meme or article to condemn “brexiteers” you might want to read up on last Fridays events regarding the EU and Ireland.

To simply say you don’t know enough to comment makes you look dishonest.


----------



## Supine (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well when you read the papers today looking for another meme or article to condemn “brexiteers” you might want to read up on last Fridays events regarding the EU and Ireland.
> 
> To simply say you don’t know enough to comment makes you look dishonest.



Last Friday was a terrible move by the EU. I said it at the time and I'll say it again. It would not have happened if we were in a union of nations collaboratinge with them.  It is a consequence of your shitty brexit and a worrying look at things to come. You have no moral victory on this.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> Last Friday was a terrible move by the EU. I said it at the time and I'll say it again. It would not have happened if we were in a union of nations collaboratinge with them.  It is a consequence of your shitty brexit and a worrying look at things to come. You have no moral victory on this.



The EU did an bad thing though so that makes everything fine and brexit unequivocally good?


----------



## Flavour (Feb 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> It is a consequence of your shitty brexit and a worrying look at things to come.



That is absolute bollocks, sorry. Did we make the EU nasty by leaving it? Was it nice before we left? Or is this just the first time that you open your eyes to what a bunch of massive cunts the EU can be, now that their ire is turned on Britain? When it was Greece however... bunch of tax-dodging greasy-haired "southern Europeans" innit, need a dose of good old Northern European common sense fiscal responsibility.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> The EU did an bad thing though so that makes everything fine and brexit unequivocally good?


No.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

Live animal exports on hold because of Brexit The Guardian reports this morning. Although I happily eat meat I think we owe animals good husbandry and sending them alive, abroad in trucks is unacceptable.
Live farm animal exports to mainland EU at a standstill post-Brexit


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

Juicy quote from the above.
“Royle added that the government consultation was having an additional chilling effect. He said it was “pretty clear” the UK government wanted to end the trade for fattening and slaughter”.


----------



## Supine (Feb 5, 2021)

Flavour said:


> That is absolute bollocks, sorry. Did we make the EU nasty by leaving it? Was it nice before we left? Or is this just the first time that you open your eyes to what a bunch of massive cunts the EU can be, now that their ire is turned on Britain? When it was Greece however... bunch of tax-dodging greasy-haired "southern Europeans" innit, need a dose of good old Northern European common sense fiscal responsibility.



We didn't make them anything they look after the own. Not sure why you are throwing racist remarks around about Greece but it's not a good look.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> We didn't make them anything they look after the own. Not sure why you are throwing racist remarks around about Greece but it's not a good look.



I am not throwing racist remarks around about Greece -- I am paraphrasing the Remainer attitude towards Greece and what the EU has done to it over the last 12 years. Which you know very well.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Supine said:


> We didn't make them anything they look after the own. Not sure why you are throwing racist remarks around about Greece but it's not a good look.


Who is 'their own' that the EU looks after.?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I am not throwing racist remarks around about Greece -- I am paraphrasing the Remainer attitude towards Greece and what the EU has done to it over the last 12 years. Which you know very well.


A cursory look through some of the German press over the years would reveal the same sentiment tbh


----------



## Flavour (Feb 5, 2021)

EU looks after their own. "Ireland, hey btw closing the border one min. Oh and can you repeat that referendum until you get the right result? There's a good island. I mean Ireland. LOL"


----------



## Supine (Feb 5, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I am not throwing racist remarks around about Greece -- I am paraphrasing the Remainer attitude towards Greece and what the EU has done to it over the last 12 years. Which you know very well.



Making stuff up isn't the same as paraphrasing


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Live animal exports on hold because of Brexit The Guardian reports this morning. Although I happily eat meat I think we owe animals good husbandry and sending them alive, abroad in trucks is unacceptable.
> Live farm animal exports to mainland EU at a standstill post-Brexit


That's purely by accident rather than design though, because I certainly don't recall any Brexit campaigners taking a stand against live exports as a central tenet for leaving the EU.

And, of course: 


> In Scotland, exports of male calves, which are of little value to dairy farmers, have also halted for a range of reasons unrelated to Brexit. The last shipment left in November 2019.
> 
> A Scottish government spokesperson said the trade had stopped because of a number of factors. Fewer male dairy calves were being born, owing to the greater use of sexed semen, for example, and more male dairy calves were being kept for rearing in the UK.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Live animal exports on hold because of Brexit The Guardian reports this morning. Although I happily eat meat I think we owe animals good husbandry and sending them alive, abroad in trucks is unacceptable.
> Live farm animal exports to mainland EU at a standstill post-Brexit


Of course, there will be people who disingenuously say that this was by accident rather than design. This is of course, nonsense, and a result of people sticking their fingers in their ears and only paying attention to what suited their agendas. Brexit was long touted as an opportunity for the UK to improve animal welfare and farming standards and this seems to be the first manifestation of that. 









						Post-Brexit farming: Animal welfare standards high on list of new priorities
					

The government’s plans for the future of farming cover an ambitious collection of aims and promises but the look of many of the regulations and schemes has yet to be finalised.Included in the 66-page report are a number of plans which will alter the way we grow and rear our food for decades to come




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

71 pages of paperwork, hours of admin, for _each lorryload_ of fish exported to Europe. Unsustainable, really, in the longer term.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> 71 pages of paperwork, hours of admin, for _each lorryload_ of fish exported to Europe. Unsustainable, really, in the longer term.


Yes, but think of the sovereignty!


----------



## mauvais (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course, there will be people who disingenuously say that this was by accident rather than design. This is of course, nonsense, and a result of people sticking their fingers in their ears and only paying attention to what suited their agendas. Brexit was long touted as an opportunity for the UK to improve animal welfare and farming standards and this seems to be the first manifestation of that.


How is the lack of capacity for inspection at European border control posts a manifestation of a UK drive to improve standards? 

🤔


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

I'm sure many here will rejoice at this news... Forget Frankfurt and Paris, says Barclays boss


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

mauvais said:


> How is the lack of capacity for inspection at European border control posts a manifestation of a UK drive to improve standards?
> 
> 🤔


No, no. That was by accident rather than design! The point is that some people don't accept that animal welfare standards were a consideration regarding leaving the EU. They were. Often.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm sure many here will rejoice at this news... Forget Frankfurt and Paris, says Barclays boss



"Oh, but he said some people lost their jobs!!!!!"


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He makes 14 points. Only one refers to article 16 getting enacted last week. He minimises it in a way that rather undermines his other points however true.


its proportionate - you are obsessed.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm sure many here will rejoice at this news... Forget Frankfurt and Paris, says Barclays boss


Quote from the article  *Creating new products out of pools of sub-prime mortgages almost destroyed the world's financial system. *Why have these people not been strung up?
I can't imagine that this is a forum where the difficulties facing bankers and hedge fund managers is going to get a particularly sympathetic hearing but for the sake of playing  devils advocate.
This guy's optimism is admirable however if I were a banker/venture capitalist in SE Asia where most of the world's population live why would I choose to look to some cold miserable island thousands of miles away when Singapore a major financial centre is smack in the middle of Asia?
The same for New York. the US has an economy roughly the size of the EU why should they look to the UK anymore than the people using Frankfurt or Paris do?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> This guy's optimism is admirable however if I were a banker/venture capitalist in SE Asia where most of the world's population live why would I choose to look to some cold miserable island thousands of miles away when Singapore a major financial centre is smack in the middle of Asia?


Time zone, language, regulatory regime, and history. This isn't a very good question.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> 71 pages of paperwork, hours of admin, for _each lorryload_ of fish exported to Europe. Unsustainable, really, in the longer term.


The fishing communities universally voted to leave. Be very careful what you wish for, you might get it.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No, no. That was by accident rather than design! The point is that some people don't accept that animal welfare standards were a consideration regarding leaving the EU. They were. Often.


IIRC the farming industry was not happy with the level of EU regulation. No way does the industry want to raise 'standards', that cuts into profit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Quote from the article  *Creating new products out of pools of sub-prime mortgages almost destroyed the world's financial system. *Why have these people not been strung up?
> I can't imagine that this is a forum where the difficulties facing bankers and hedge fund managers is going to get a particularly sympathetic hearing but for the sake of playing  devils advocate.
> This guy's optimism is admirable however if I were a banker/venture capitalist in SE Asia where most of the world's population live why would I choose to look to some cold miserable island thousands of miles away when Singapore a major financial centre is smack in the middle of Asia?
> The same for New York. the US has an economy roughly the size of the EU why should they look to the UK anymore than the people using Frankfurt or Paris do?




The answer to your question is in the article. This guy is one of the leading figures in an industry that provides 11% of the UK's tax receipts, as much as bankers are scumbags, if he thinks Brexit will have a positive outcome for his industry he is probably worth listening to.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> The fishing communities universally voted to leave. Be very careful what you wish for, you might get it.



I don't think any group of people you could name 'universally' voted for brexit.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> IIRC the farming industry was not happy with the level of EU regulation. No way does the industry want to raise 'standards', that cuts into profit.


Industry never leads on improving standards unless they are pushed.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The answer to your question is in the article. This guy is one of the leading figures in an industry that provides 11% of the UK's tax receipts, as much as bankers are scumbags, if he thinks Brexit will have a positive outcome for his industry he is probably worth listening to.


I could be wrong here but I'm guessing that this 'positive outcome' he refers to entirely relates to his industry's profits and his pay packet, and not the general population. Or are we supposed to be cheerleading what bankers come up with now and hope for some of that elusive trickle down wealth?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> I could be wrong here but I'm guessing that this 'positive outcome' he refers to entirely relates to his industry's profits and his pay packet, and not the general population. Or are we supposed to be cheerleading what bankers come up with now and hope for some of that elusive trickle down wealth?




You seem to have missed this bit:   an industry that provides 11% of the UK's tax receipts


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

I think it’s great that all the bivalves have to stay in the uk now. It’s very stressful for molluscs to travel.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think it’s great that all the bivalves have to stay in the uk now. It’s very stressful for molluscs to travel.


One should judge the humanity of a nation by how well it looks after its oysters.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

This


Spymaster said:


> One should judge the humanity of a nation by how well it looks after its oysters.


Straight from the tank to my belly.


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> I could be wrong here but I'm guessing that this 'positive outcome' he refers to entirely relates to his industry's profits and his pay packet, and not the general population. Or are we supposed to be cheerleading what bankers come up with now and hope for some of that elusive trickle down wealth?


Not everyone who works in the finance industry or whose livelihood depends on it is a rich banker.

There's a danger here of unintentionally creating a simplistic binary of good and bad industries, and suggesting that what's good for a particular industry is necessarily good or bad for people in general, depending which side of the line we think the industry is positioned.


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> One should judge the humanity of a nation by how well it looks after its oysters.


Deep fried in batter, it’s what they would have wanted.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Deep fried in batter, it’s what they would have wanted.


An abomination. Shallots, lemon and Chablis.


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> An abomination. Shallots, lemon and Chablis.


What? Foreign nonsense.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> An abomination.



If you haven't had a battered oyster you haven't lived.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> If you haven't had a battered oyster you haven't lived.



So much for animal welfare


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> So much for animal welfare


Better to be eaten here than transported live and eaten abroad. Same for animals.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2021)

Battering them though


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Battering them though


battered fish are nice. and battered sausages. but battered animals less so.


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Better to be eaten here than transported live and eaten abroad. Same for animals.


Oysters do not have brains. They don’t really care.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Oysters do not have brains. They don’t really care.


Heartless.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2021)

I hadn't thought of this as a side product of Brexit - good development. I hope we don't start live deliveries to other places. 

There's also the threat in the future of low-cost meat coming into the country that will force down animal welfare standards by british farmers. 

Will be interested to see how it balances out in the long term.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not everyone who works in the finance industry or whose livelihood depends on it is a rich banker.


But the boss of Barclays most certainly is.


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

The government is writing letters to the EU claiming that the oysters want to travel  








						Exclusive: Government Is Writing To The EU Over Post-Brexit Shellfish Ban Which Threatens To Destroy Businesses
					

The government is set to write to the European Union as soon as today about the bloc's post-Brexit ban on mussels, cockles, and other shellfish cau...




					www.politicshome.com


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You seem to have missed this bit:   an industry that provides 11% of the UK's tax receipts


If you're asking to me to start applauding what banking industry bosses say and be grateful for whatever amount of tax they reluctant pay once they've exhausted all the tax evasion schemes, be prepared for long bouts of silence.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> The government is writing letters to the EU claiming that the oysters want to travel
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh Christ it's Useless Eustace  we're fucked.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> If you're asking to me to start applauding what banking industry bosses say and be grateful for whatever amount of tax they reluctant pay once they've exhausted all the tax evasion schemes, be prepared for long bouts of silence.


It’s been mentioned as several remainers on urban have stressed the amount of GDP the financial sector contributes and how this was and is threatened by Brexit.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s been mentioned as several remainers on urban have stressed the amount of GDP the financial sector contributes and how this was and is threatened by Brexit.


You're doing that thing again of responding to a supposed viewpoint that has little relation to what I actually posted.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> You're doing that thing again of responding to a supposed viewpoint that has little relation to what I actually posted.


Well you keep mentioning the detrimental effects of Brexit. Is the potential loss for the financial sector not one of those?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s been mentioned as several remainers on urban have stressed the amount of GDP the financial sector contributes and how this was and is threatened by Brexit.


you don't need to be a remainer to wonder what's going to happen should johnson fuck the city of london. i for one never thought it would be a tory government which might stop the city more effectively than j18


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> If you're asking to me to start applauding what banking industry bosses say and be grateful for whatever amount of tax they reluctant pay once they've exhausted all the tax evasion schemes, be prepared for long bouts of silence.



Please point to the post where I asked you to applaud anything?

What I did do is highlight the part of my post that you seemed to have accidentally missed (but now I am suspecting that you wilfully ignored it) which flies in the face of your idea that the general population won’t benefit from this.

Anyway, I shall await your quoting of me asking you to applaud something.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat 

Please give just one benefit to me of us leaving the EU.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> The fishing communities universally voted to leave. Be very careful what you wish for, you might get it.



They didn't, but if you're happy dismissing something you have no understanding of on the basis of what you read in the _Express_ then don't let me stop you.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> TopCat
> 
> Please give just one benefit to me of us leaving the EU.


Have you heard of Terry Christian?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm sure many here will rejoice at this news... Forget Frankfurt and Paris, says Barclays boss





> In fact, he said the UK's robust regulation was a major strength, not weakness, and referred to the recent clampdown on firms offering buy now, pay later schemes as reassuring.
> "You see what's happening right now with buy now, pay later, you know, the FCA is going to come in and start to increase the regulation of that marketplace. That's the right thing to do.
> "And, in a funny way we've gotten pretty good at working inside the regulatory framework that is here. It protects the financial industry in London as we learn how to deal with this regulation, and it makes the bank safer."


FWIW, I agree with this part


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> Not everyone who works in the finance industry or whose livelihood depends on it is a rich banker.
> 
> There's a danger here of unintentionally creating a simplistic binary of good and bad industries, and suggesting that what's good for a particular industry is necessarily good or bad for people in general, depending which side of the line we think the industry is positioned.


Fuck the livelihoods of tens of thousands in the financial sector. It’s a handful of touring musicians we should be sympathising with.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Have you heard of Terry Christian?


That's a question that needs it's own thread, really.


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> But the boss of Barclays most certainly is.


This is the same sort of argument that you object to when someone dismisses an article complaining about the effects of Brexit on the music industry because it's written by Bob Geldof.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Please point to the post where I asked you to applaud anything?
> 
> What I did do is highlight the part of my post that you seemed to have accidentally missed (but now I am suspecting that you wilfully ignored it) which flies in the face of your idea that the general population won’t benefit from this.
> 
> Anyway, I shall await your quoting of me asking you to applaud something.


Overall, do you think the general population benefits from the existence of high paid bankers and the system that they employ to make profits?


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Fuck the livelihoods of tens of thousands in the financial sector. It’s a handful of touring musicians we should be sympathising with.


There does appear to be a double standard at work here.

You can't really expect to get sympathy for the effects of Brexit on your own industry while simultaneously dismissing the effects on someone else's (see also eg fishing).


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well you keep mentioning the detrimental effects of Brexit. Is the potential loss for the financial sector not one of those?


I'd love the financial sector to be torn apart and the profits of its parasitic bosses reduced to pennies and a new, fairer system put in its place.  But it's great to see you batting on their team.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> I'd love the financial sector to be torn apart and the profits of its parasitic bosses reduced to pennies and a new, fairer system put in its place.  But it's great to see you batting on their team.


Well you might get your wish. If you do would you list it as a benefit of Brexit?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> They didn't, but if you're happy dismissing something you have no understanding of on the basis of what you read in the _Express_ then don't let me stop you.











						They voted for Brexit. Now many British fishermen feel betrayed.
					

Fishermen complain of broken government promises, while exporters say they are choking on red tape.




					www.nbcnews.com
				












						Why did the fishing industry vote for Brexit? – podcast
					

In June 2016, polls suggested that 92% of the fishing industry voted to leave the EU. Sam Wollaston spent four days onboard a trawler to find out why. Plus: Nesrine Malik argues that Hillary Clinton is wrong to claim that curbing migration is the answer to right-wing populism




					www.theguardian.com
				












						British fishermen fear they won't get what they voted for after Brexit
					

Fishermen who were some of the most vocal supporters of Brexit are worried they may not end up with what they voted for.




					news.sky.com
				












						Why did 92% of UK fishermen vote to leave the EU?
					

Answer (1 of 21): As a person who was born into a fishing family, in a major fishing town where the main industry was fishing and its supporting industries, I can say this. Yes, the cod war damaged the industry enormously, the US pressure to yield to Icelandic demands of a 200 mile limit signific...



					www.quora.com
				












						British fishermen want out of the EU – here's why
					

New surveys show the overwhelming antipathy for the EU among UK fishermen.




					theconversation.com
				












						Brexit regrets for UK fishermen as border delays slash profits
					

“I think, if we knew this was going to happen, I honestly think things might have been different, people would have voted differently,"




					www.euronews.com
				




Anything else that you care to be proven wrong on?


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> They voted for Brexit. Now many British fishermen feel betrayed.
> 
> 
> Fishermen complain of broken government promises, while exporters say they are choking on red tape.
> ...



An American news company interviewing 2-3 fishermen is of course conclusive proof that fishing community "universally voted for Brexit".

Just as well you worked in a pharmacy (as I recall) rather than a legal office.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well you might get your wish. If you do would you list it as a benefit of Brexit?


You what? You really imagine that poverty for banking bosses is a potential side-effect of Brexit?


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Have you heard of Terry Christian?



Nope? Any reason why I should have?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> There's a danger here of unintentionally creating a simplistic binary of good and bad industries, and suggesting that what's good for a particular industry is necessarily good or bad for people in general, depending which side of the line we think the industry is positioned.


any sympathy for the fashion industry? they've written an open letter to no 10 claiming they are hobbled

letter


			https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5a1431a1e5dd5b754be2e0e9/t/601af56399f213278b58c948/1612379491392/Open+letter+from+Fashion+Roundtable.pdf
		


thing:








						Brexit & Fashion: An Open Letter to the UK Government — Fashion Roundtable
					

We are currently collating names of signatories for our open letter to the Government regarding Brexit and the UK fashion industry. Please sign by emailing      Sarah      at Fashion Roundtable with confirmation of your name and job title.




					www.fashionroundtable.co.uk
				



also claiming to "contribute more to UK GDP than fishing, music, film, pharmaceuticals and automobile industries combined.  "


----------



## bimble (Feb 5, 2021)

Nigel says all brexiteers should sign a petition to trigger article 16.
Is this his own basement he’s sitting in?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> I'd love the financial sector to be torn apart and the profits of its parasitic bosses reduced to pennies and a new, fairer system put in its place.  But it's great to see you batting on their team.


just out of curiosity, should the fs be torn apart and a new fairer system not end up in place, how do you think that might affect pensions? what happens in the city - what happens to the city - will affect an awful lot of working people's futures.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> There does appear to be a double standard at work here.
> 
> You can't really expect to get sympathy for the effects of Brexit on your own industry while simultaneously dismissing the effects on someone else's (see also eg fishing).


Perhaps the music industry should be torn apart because of the obscene money Stock, Aitken and Waterman have made from it.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> just out of curiosity, should the fs be torn apart and a new fairer system not end up in place, how do you think that might affect pensions?


Oh OK. I must be wrong. It must be absolutely impossible to change anything (even though there seemed to be untold billions on hand to save the banking industry a while ago), so there's no pont even wishing for such a thing or a fairer society.  I'll get back in line with the rest of you.

Hooray for the rich bankers! Let's clap for the financial sector! Save the CEO jobs! We need them!


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Perhaps the music industry should be torn apart because of the obscene money Stock, Aitken and Waterman have made from it.


I should be so lucky...


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 5, 2021)

It's like a whole field of strawmen battling to see who can shift most goalposts


----------



## Raheem (Feb 5, 2021)

S☼I said:


> It's like a whole field of strawmen battling to see who can shift most goalposts


Think you might be putting the man before the ball.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> They voted for Brexit. Now many British fishermen feel betrayed.
> 
> 
> Fishermen complain of broken government promises, while exporters say they are choking on red tape.
> ...



Still at least I've wound you up enough to spend the last half hour frantically googling, your clenched fists bashing your keyboard in rage.

In Scotland, five noisy families and their lobby group were in favour of Brexit. They own most of Scottish fishing. Banff & Buchan turned Tory on the basis of the issue. You know, your political heroes, the UK Tory Party.

Since the Brexit vote Fishing Brexiteers have disappeared like mice in the cobra cage of the zoo. This has left those involved in fish production and distribution, and logistics, to occupy the space with the obvious message that Brexit was a bad thing and that many in the above named industries had opposed it throughout. Strangely the media were not terribly interested in the views of these people from June 2016-December 2020.

Here's the chairman of the Scottush creel fishing association, for example, speaking very well on the subject:









						Scottish fishing industry in ‘fits of despair’ over post-Brexit impact, says Scottish Creel Fishermen’s Federation
					

We spoke to Alastair Sinclair, who is the National Coordinator of the Scottish Creel Fishermen's Federation, about how Brexit is affecting the fishing industry in Scotland. We started by asking which was a bigger problem, Brexit or Covid.




					www.channel4.com
				




SeafoodScotland and MarineScotland on twitter are much more representative twitter accounts of all shades of opinion in the industry. Yes, there was a noisy pro-Brexit lobby in fishing. They did not and never did speak for the industry as a whole. Places like the Broch and Peterhead face ruin because of the impact of Brexit on fishing. Saying the industry voted for the policy en masse so ner ner I don't care is insulting, lazy and wrong.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh OK. I must be wrong. It must be absolutely impossible to change anything (even though there seemed to be untold billions on hand to save the banking industry a while ago), so there's no pont even wishing for such a thing or a fairer society.  I'll get back in line with the rest of you.
> 
> Hooray for the rich bankers! Let's clap for the financial sector! Save the CEO jobs! We need them!


to inspire your reply you must have been reading a very different post to the one you quote


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Nigel says all brexiteers should sign a petition to trigger article 16.
> Is this his own basement he’s sitting in?



he looks wasted there


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> any sympathy for the fashion industry? they've written an open letter to no 10 claiming they are hobbled
> 
> letter
> 
> ...


I don't have sympathy for "the fashion industry", or "the fishing industry" or "the music industry", as industries. 

I do have sympathy for anyone, in more or less any industry, who finds their position more difficult as a result of Brexit, but also for those who found or find their position more difficult because of the EU.

And I disagree with workers in any industry who equate their interests with that of the industry in which they work.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> any sympathy for the fashion industry? they've written an open letter to no 10 claiming they are hobbled
> 
> letter
> 
> ...


That’s some claim.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't have sympathy for "the fashion industry", or "the fishing industry" or "the music industry", as industries. I do have sympathy for anyone, in more or less any industry, who finds their position more difficult as a result of Brexit, but also for those who found or find their position more difficult because of the EU. And I disagree with workers in any industry who equate their interests with that of the industry in which they work.


im with you 
though right now in the immediate aftermath of 1st Jan " sympathy for anyone, in more or less any industry, who finds their position more difficult as a result of Brexit," is the key issue


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im with you
> though right now in the immediate aftermath of 1st Jan " sympathy for anyone, in more or less any industry, who finds their position more difficult as a result of Brexit," is the key issue


Unless they are Irish.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 5, 2021)

bimble said:


> Deep fried in batter, it’s what they would have wanted.


A glorious death for a noble cause


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s some claim.


But even if it's true, so what?

The British fashion industry functions by exploiting  people in Britain and elsewhere.

The "fashion industry", like all other industries, exists to make profits, not for the benefit of either workers or consumers.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2021)

Albania, Albania...



...not nearly as repressive as Romania!


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That’s some claim.



I think it’s true for the “culture industries” as a whole.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Sasaferrato said:


> Nope? Any reason why I should have?


Just very similar behaviour


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Overall, do you think the general population benefits from the existence of high paid bankers and the system that they employ to make profits?



I notice you have failed to answer this:  Please point to the post where I asked you to applaud anything? 



As to the financial services industry, I feel that the country works well with a mixture of industries, some that are unseemly but puts in a lot of money to society and others such as yours that don't.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't need to be a remainer to wonder what's going to happen should johnson fuck the city of london. i for one never thought it would be a tory government which might stop the city more effectively than j18


Can't see Brexit stopping the City from its main business of funnelling wealth to havens beyond the reach of tax jurisdictions.


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I notice you have failed to answer this:  Please point to the post where I asked you to applaud anything?


Perhaps you failed to notice that I wasn't making a statement but asked: "If you're asking to me to start applauding ...."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Albania, Albania...
> 
> 
> 
> ...not nearly as repressive as Romania!



Has had a free trade agreement with EFTA since 2009.

So chalk that one up in the 'managed to get back to where things were in the EU' column.

Decent flag.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Albania, Albania...
> 
> 
> 
> ...not nearly as repressive as Romania!



We already have a trade agreement with Albanians. All our non skunk weed comes from there.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Albania, Albania...
> 
> 
> 
> ...not nearly as repressive as Romania!



I always remember that The Morning Star used to have adverts in it from Progress Tours , a company based I think in Yorkshire. On a whim I sent off for, and received a brochure which had coach tours to Albania. In the midst of what seemed to very hectic and culture enriching schedule of visits to carpet factories and other industries and collective farms was the advice that hotels didn't have plugs for sinks so it was best to purchase a ping pong ball and that under no circumstance would people with beards be given a visa.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just very similar behaviour


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Has had a free trade agreement with EFTA since 2009.
> 
> So chalk that one up in the 'managed to get back to where things were in the EU' column.


Do the Albanians like langoustine?


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can't see Brexit stopping the City from its main business of funnelling wealth to havens beyond the reach of tax jurisdictions.


My gut feeling is that it'll get even worse. There's no shortage of corporates, big businesses Brexiteers and the ruling class who ❤ tax havens and avoiding paying their full whack on tax.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> so it was best to purchase a ping pong ball


how does that work then, surely the ball rises with the water, so the plughole is uncovered


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I always remember that The Morning Star used to have adverts in it from Progress Tours , a company based I think in Yorkshire. On a whim I sent off for, and received a brochure which had coach tours to Albania. In the midst of what seemed to very hectic and culture enriching schedule of visits to carpet factories and other industries and collective farms was the advice that hotels didn't have plugs for sinks so it was best to purchase a ping pong ball and that under no circumstance would people with beards be given a visa.


Progress tours. My parents went with them via coach to Hungary in the mid eighties. Pork for every single meal and a threadbare coach.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 5, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> how does that work then, surely the ball rises with the water, so the plughole is uncovered


Structural failures of Communism.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> how does that work then, surely the ball rises with the water, so the plughole is uncovered


Dunno  mate, didn't go as the girlfriend wasn't keen


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno  mate, didn't go as the girlfriend wasn't keen


You sure knew how to treat a girl!


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Dunno mate, didn't go as the girlfriend wasn't keen



and miss out on visits to carpet factories and collective farms?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 5, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you failed to notice that I wasn't making a statement but asked: "If you're asking to me to start applauding ...."




Oh sorry, you're trying the philosophical defence, it was a question and not a statement. In which case my answer is: No I am not asking you that, you can tell I wasn't asking you that by the way I didn't ask you that.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and miss out on visits to carpet factories and collective farms?


I partially made up for it years later by visiting an Aloe Vera factory in Tenerife, albeit not collectivised .


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 5, 2021)

The UK's stringent regulatory framework, thats a good joke


----------



## andysays (Feb 5, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im with you
> though right now in the immediate aftermath of 1st Jan " sympathy for anyone, in more or less any industry, who finds their position more difficult as a result of Brexit," is the key issue


Having thought about your post, I'm really not sure why you think sympathy for those who found or still find their position more difficult because of the EU should be less of an issue than those who find it more difficult as a result of Brexit.

It almost sounds like you view them as less deserving in some way, or think the difficulties they are facing are somehow less real.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 5, 2021)

The old mad king of the swivel-eyed loons reduced to cheerleading intra-European production location decisions of US corporations; sad fucker.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Do the Albanians like langoustine?



Not as much as bunkers.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I always remember that The Morning Star used to have adverts in it from Progress Tours , a company based I think in Yorkshire. On a whim I sent off for, and received a brochure which had coach tours to Albania. In the midst of what seemed to very hectic and culture enriching schedule of visits to carpet factories and other industries and collective farms was the advice that hotels didn't have plugs for sinks so it was best to purchase a ping pong ball and that under no circumstance would people with beards be given a visa.



From memory I think they Progress Tours have been a front for the Hoxhaist groupuscule, the RCPB (M-L).

I was shocked to discover that they not only still exist, at least notionally, but that the lucky citizens of South Shields had the opportunity to vote for a Hoxhaist as recently as 2010 (where a party official stood on a neutral "anti-war" ticket and came bottom of the poll with 90 or so votes).


----------



## Supine (Feb 5, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Feb 5, 2021)

Supine said:


>








> “Everything is about your working capital,” says Melissa Morris, founder of the leather goods label Métier, which opened its first shop in Mayfair in 2017. The financial implications of the Brexit deal is her number one source of stress at the moment





If this doesn't change the mind set of the Red Wall I don't know what will


----------



## editor (Feb 5, 2021)

Won't anyone think of the Falkland Islanders? 











						Brexit Bites the Falkland Islands’ Calamari – Byline Times
					

Local officials are considering breaking ranks with the UK Government and asking the EU for help, reports David Hencke




					bylinetimes.com


----------



## gosub (Feb 6, 2021)

editor said:


> Won't anyone think of the Falkland Islanders?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Would like to know what the |EU spend on the place used to be,  or did the overseas territory budget all get spunked on the Reunion highway?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2021)

Poll finds most British people oppose Brexit and want to be in EU
					

A newly released survey found that 57% of British people wanted to rejoin the European Union, with support for Brexit collapsing.



					www.businessinsider.com
				




#worldbeating


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2021)

Brexit Border Friction Led to 'Two Or Three Hundred Consignments' Of Cancer Drugs Being Destroyed
					

A senior Conservative MP has told PoliticsHome that he will be 'seeking urgent clarification from the government' over reports time-sensitive cance...




					www.politicshome.com
				






> A senior Conservative MP has told PoliticsHome that he will be "seeking urgent clarification from the government" over reports time-sensitive cancer drugs were destroyed due to post-Brexit border delays.
> 
> The Confederation of British Industry's (CBI) Ian Price told the Welsh Affairs Committee on Thursday morning that an unnamed drugs manufacuter based in Wales had been forced to move its production to Ireland in order to circumvent friction at the UK border with the EU.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Poll finds most British people oppose Brexit and want to be in EU
> 
> 
> A newly released survey found that 57% of British people wanted to rejoin the European Union, with support for Brexit collapsing.
> ...


Maybe you are on a roll. How would you build on that?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Maybe you are on a roll. How would you build on that?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2021)

Opinions aside I am surprised there has not been an emergency declaration order for medical supplies. 

Similar orders have been drafted for C19 vaccines and were used in the Olympics. 

Cancer (or any essential) drugs being destroyed is unforgivable.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 6, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Poll finds most British people oppose Brexit and want to be in EU
> 
> 
> A newly released survey found that 57% of British people wanted to rejoin the European Union, with support for Brexit collapsing.
> ...



That is from June last year, is there not a note up to date one?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 6, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> That is from June last year, is there not a note up to date one?


I suspect there is


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2021)

Latest poll seems to be this one:









						Do you think Brexit has gone well or badly since the EU transition period ended?
					






					whatukthinks.org
				




Do you think Brexit has gone well or badly since the EU transition period ended?


Results for: Do you think Brexit has gone well or badly since the EU transition period ended?

Fieldwork end date
Pollster5 February 2021
Poll by YouGov15 January 2021
Poll by YouGovVery well5%4%Fairly well20%19%Neither well nor badly21%24%Fairly badly19%19%Very badly23%20%Don't Know13%13%

That’s not the same thing as asking if people would rejoin though.  I think it’s gone at least fairly badly but I wouldn’t vote to rejoin at this stage.


----------



## bimble (Feb 6, 2021)

This is quite interesting, big difference when you ask - how would you vote if it was 2016 again compared to when you ask would you vote to rejoin.








						Britons would vote to Remain but are less sure about re-joining | YouGov
					

In our latest study on the issue of Europe, YouGov looks at how people’s perceptions differ, depending on the question they are faced




					yougov.co.uk


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2021)

Ah, here you go.  A super-wide table


Fieldwork end date
Pollster25 January 2021
Poll by YouGov23 January 2021
Poll by Deltapoll30 December 2020
Poll by Deltapoll18 December 2020
Poll by ComRes28 November 2020
Poll by Deltapoll24 October 2020
Poll by Deltapoll25 September 2020
Poll by Deltapoll3 July 2020
Poll by Deltapoll15 June 2020
Poll by Kantar28 May 2020
Poll by Deltapoll11 May 2020
Poll by Kantar20 April 2020
Poll by Kantar9 March 2020
Poll by Kantar11 December 2019
Poll by Panelbase7 December 2019
Poll by Deltapoll6 December 2019
Poll by Panelbase30 November 2019
Poll by Deltapoll28 November 2019
Poll by Panelbase23 November 2019
Poll by Deltapoll22 November 2019
Poll by Panelbase16 November 2019
Poll by Deltapoll14 November 2019
Poll by Panelbase9 November 2019
Poll by Deltapoll8 November 2019
Poll by Panelbase2 November 2019
Poll by Deltapoll31 October 2019
Poll by Panelbase21 October 2019
Poll by Deltapoll18 October 2019
Poll by Panelbase15 October 2019
Poll by Kantar11 October 2019
Poll by Panelbase9 September 2019
Poll by Kantar7 September 2019
Poll by Deltapoll6 September 2019
Poll by Panelbase4 September 2019
Poll by YouGov31 August 2019
Poll by Deltapoll19 August 2019
Poll by Kantar27 July 2019
Poll by Deltapoll21 May 2019
Poll by Panelbase13 May 2019
Poll by Kantar24 April 2019
Poll by Panelbase16 April 2019
Poll by ComRes8 April 2019
Poll by Kantar30 March 2019
Poll by Deltapoll19 March 2019
Poll by YouGov17 March 2019
Poll by ComRes11 March 2019
Poll by Kantar5 March 2019
Poll by ComRes23 February 2019
Poll by Deltapoll11 February 2019
Poll by Deltapoll11 February 2019
Poll by Kantar17 January 2019
Poll by ORB17 January 2019
Poll by ComRes16 January 2019
Poll by YouGov15 January 2019
Poll by ComRes14 January 2019
Poll by Kantar4 January 2019
Poll by YouGov15 December 2018
Poll by YouGov14 December 2018
Poll by Deltapoll6 December 2018
Poll by Kantar4 December 2018
Poll by Opinium29 November 2018
Poll by YouGov15 November 2018
Poll by ComRes15 November 2018
Poll by YouGov12 November 2018
Poll by Kantar9 November 2018
Poll by YouGov7 November 2018
Poll by Panelbase6 November 2018
Poll by Populus26 October 2018
Poll by Deltapoll15 October 2018
Poll by Kantar10 September 2018
Poll by Kantar9 September 2018
Poll by ICM4 September 2018
Poll by YouGov20 August 2018
Poll by YouGov13 August 2018
Poll by Kantar7 August 2018
Poll by YouGov31 July 2018
Poll by YouGov14 July 2018
Poll by Deltapoll9 July 2018
Poll by Kantar6 July 2018
Poll by YouGov27 June 2018
Poll by YouGov16 May 2018
Poll by Deltapoll8 April 2018
Poll by ICM6 April 2018
Poll by YouGov8 March 2018
Poll by ORB2 March 2018
Poll by ComRes16 February 2018
Poll by Sky Data19 January 2018
Poll by ICM19 January 2018
Poll by Sky Data11 January 2018
Poll by ComRes10 December 2017
Poll by ICM20 October 2017
Poll by Opinium22 September 2017
Poll by Opinium15 September 2017
Poll by Opinium18 August 2017
Poll by Opinium21 June 2017
Poll by Panelbase7 June 2017
Poll by Panelbase1 June 2017
Poll by Panelbase30 May 2017
Poll by Kantar23 May 2017
Poll by Panelbase15 May 2017
Poll by Panelbase9 May 2017
Poll by Panelbase2 May 2017
Poll by Panelbase24 April 2017
Poll by Panelbase12 October 2016
Poll by Survation30 June 2016
Poll by Opinium30 June 2016
Poll by BMG ResearchRemain49%43%46%45%47%45%43%43%42%44%40%37%37%50%45%51%44%50%46%49%43%50%45%51%43%51%49%49%38%51%37%46%52%46%46%36%45%52%42%51%52%41%46%46%45%40%46%45%43%43%48%47%48%44%44%46%46%44%36%45%47%45%46%39%45%51%47%40%38%42%46%46%46%40%46%46%45%40%47%44%47%45%44%44%43%46%45%49%51%46%46%45%45%39%46%46%47%35%48%47%47%48%46%44%48%45%Leave37%43%41%40%40%42%43%43%33%44%32%36%34%46%39%46%44%46%43%48%42%46%42%46%41%46%40%47%37%45%34%40%45%43%41%35%41%45%33%45%38%35%39%41%39%32%39%41%43%35%42%39%38%40%35%39%37%43%33%45%39%43%40%34%41%46%40%40%35%35%42%42%41%35%40%41%45%32%41%44%42%44%41%49%46%42%43%41%43%43%45%44%45%34%50%51%49%38%49%50%49%49%50%44%42%37%Don't know/undecided13%14%13%16%13%


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is quite interesting, big difference when you ask - how would you vote if it was 2016 again compared to when you ask would you vote to rejoin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That’s interesting.  It suggests to me that the original remain vote had a large “if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it” element, who were less driven by ideology and more by wanting to avoid chaos.  It’s already broken now, though, so it’s arguably easier at this point to work with what we have.


----------



## bimble (Feb 6, 2021)

I wonder if there’s a (very rough non sciency) element to the leave & remain votes, the 2016 one I mean, where remain voters are more pessimistic people, leave voters more optimists.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 6, 2021)

That's more of a swing to Remain than I expected, given how entrenched both sides have become, but I guess people who have turned 18 over the last five years might account for some of it - weird to think that by the time the next general election rolls around, there will be people voting who were 9 or 10 years old during the referendum.


----------



## andysays (Feb 6, 2021)

editor said:


> Won't anyone think of the Falkland Islanders?
> 
> View attachment 253017
> 
> ...



Can't they find an alternative market for their calamari?

There must be *somewhere *closer than the EU that will buy it...


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can't they find an alternative market for their calamari?
> 
> There must be *somewhere *closer than the EU that will buy it...


 You-know-who are more into their beef than seafood though.


----------



## andysays (Feb 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You-know-who are more into their beef than seafood though.


The problem may well be beef-related, though not quite in the way I think you mean


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You-know-who are more into their beef than seafood though.


Could a calamari led trade deal lead to better relations?


----------



## andysays (Feb 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Could a calamari led trade deal lead to better relations?



There would be a certain irony if Brexit led to closer links between the Falklands and Argentina


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 6, 2021)

I'm sure the RCPBML were Alexi Sayles lot...


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> From memory I think they Progress Tours have been a front for the Hoxhaist groupuscule, the RCPB (M-L).
> 
> I was shocked to discover that they not only still exist, at least notionally, but that the lucky citizens of South Shields had the opportunity to vote for a Hoxhaist as recently as 2010 (where a party official stood on a neutral "anti-war" ticket and came bottom of the poll with 90 or so votes).


This is fabulous.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 6, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> I'm sure the RCPBML were Alexi Sayles lot...


Weird when you think he made his fortune from voicing adverts.


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 6, 2021)

They could have a squid pro cola (de buey) deal.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> I wonder if there’s a (very rough non sciency) element to the leave & remain votes, the 2016 one I mean, where remain voters are more pessimistic people, leave voters more optimists.


Think you might be on to something there actually...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> This is quite interesting, big difference when you ask - how would you vote if it was 2016 again compared to when you ask would you vote to rejoin.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The rejoiners must feel politically disenfranchised No main party supports rejoin ( suppose the Lib dems have a sort of rejoin possibly at a later date position) .So aside from stunts like getting Irish citzenship or if Scotland goes indy moving to Scotland type schemes or hypethetical reruns of the referendum where does that political intention find a home or organisation?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The rejoiners must feel politically disenfranchised No main party supports rejoin ( suppose the Lib dems have a sort of rejoin possibly at a later date position) .So aside from stunts like getting Irish citzenship or if Scotland goes indy moving to Scotland type schemes or hypethetical reruns of the referendum where does that political intention find a home or organisation?


I fully expect the Lib Dems to push on this more forcefully if they ever get themselves together.
Which will hurt the Labour vote more than the Tory I expect, and further eintrench Tory domination
More tactical support for UKIPery from the LibDems then


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 6, 2021)

Haven’t the LDs already said they’d rejoin?


----------



## bimble (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The rejoiners must feel politically disenfranchised No main party supports rejoin ( suppose the Lib dems have a sort of rejoin possibly at a later date position) .So aside from stunts like getting Irish citzenship or if Scotland goes indy moving to Scotland type schemes or hypethetical reruns of the referendum where does that political intention find a home or organisation?


Like with everything else brexit,  5 years from now it’ll probably all look a bit clearer. Maybe rejoin will have mostly just stopped being a question by then. Hard to imagine ‘let’s just rejoin the customs union’ being a massive movement with banners I don’t know.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Like with everything else brexit,  5 years from now it’ll probably all look a bit clearer. Maybe rejoin will have mostly just stopped being a question by then. Hard to imagine ‘let’s just rejoin the customs union’ being a massive movement with banners I don’t know.


all the recalcitrant remainers will be in camps on the isle of man


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

bimble said:


> Like with everything else brexit,  5 years from now it’ll probably all look a bit clearer. Maybe rejoin will have mostly just stopped being a question by then. Hard to imagine ‘let’s just rejoin the customs union’ being a massive movement with banners I don’t know.


To get to a position in  five years where rejoin is more than just a question surely means the work has to start now?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I fully expect the Lib Dems to push on this more forcefully if they ever get themselves together.
> Which will hurt the Labour vote more than the Tory I expect, and further eintrench Tory domination
> More tactical support for UKIPery from the LibDems then


What about remainers  in the Labour Party ? I haven't a clue how many are rejoiners but something like 80% of members were for remain or second referendum . Where do they go or how would they advance rejoin?


----------



## bimble (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What about remainers  in the Labour Party ? I haven't a clue how many are rejoiners but something like 80% of members were for remain or second referendum . Where do they go or how would they advance rejoin?


I’ve got no evidence to support this but I reckon a lot of those people will just have accepted that the uK has left now and won’t be that energised by anyone attempting to re run the whole shitshow.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What about remainers  in the Labour Party ? I haven't a clue how many are rejoiners but something like 80% of members were for remain or second referendum . Where do they go or how would they advance rejoin?


Well yeah I reckon some will peel off to the Lib Dems
Starmer is crushing some hope and dreams 
Unknowable question is  what happens over the next few post-Brexit, post-teething problem, years.
Other big variables are Scottish independence and their rejoining
Who subsequent Lab Leaders are is also an issue, and Im sure if someone wanted to whip up rejoin fever they would get _somewhere_
Could there be a Rejoin-Ukip type party? I doubt it



Spymaster said:


> Haven’t the LDs already said they’d rejoin?


Probably but until they work out how to get any attention no one hears what they say. I don't even know who the leader is at the moment, so i expect public awareness is pretty rock bottom


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Well yeah I reckon some will peel off to the Lib Dems
> Starmer is crushing some hope and dreams
> Unknowable question is  what happens over the next few post-Brexit, post-teething problem, years.
> Other big variables are Scottish independence and their rejoining
> ...



What about Renew  they are pro rejoining and are standing in the Mayoral elections and possibly  the Council elections.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Haven’t the LDs already said they’d rejoin?


Still wrestling with their conscience over the matter but at the moment no



> The Lib Dem leader said his party was “very pro-European” and wanted a close relationship with the EU following Brexit, it was “not a rejoin party”.
> However, he said that the removal of free movement as a result of the UK leaving the EU is “illiberal” and the case for its reintroduction should be reopened


.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What about Renew  they are pro rejoining and are standing in the Mayoral elections and possibly  the Council elections.


I wasnt aware of them, but now you mention it i remember a thread on here and then dismissing them
Do you think they'll get far? I doubt it. UKIP played a long game, had good financial backing, and friends in high places
What do i know, we're just speculating for fun here


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I don't even know who the leader is at the moment ...



Some bloke called Ed Davey according to Google.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Some bloke called Ed Davey according to Google.


he's the man ravey davey gravy in viz is based on


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I wasnt aware of them, but now you mention it i remember a thread on here and then dismissing them
> Do you think they'll get far? I doubt it. UKIP played a long game, had good financial backing, and friends in high places
> What do i know, we're just speculating for fun here



I'm not sure if populism , which UKIP definitely was, needs to play the long game tbh .  In fact its ability to do well short term or at least make inroads is what is so disruptive to established political parties and voter allegiance. Yes theres a contradiction in being anti establishment but having friends in high place and good financial backing, that seems to be the hallmark of far right populism.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Some bloke called Ed Davey according to Google.


Oh Ed Davey


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not sure if populism , which UKIP definitely was, needs to play the long game tbh .


im basing that on watching a history of ukip thing once, from the early 90s up to Brexit victory - they stuck at their guns  successfully


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im basing that on watching a history of ukip thing once, from the early 90s up to Brexit victory - they stuck at their guns  successfully


UKIP sort of morphed though didn't they? early UKIP was very different from populist UKIP.


----------



## editor (Feb 6, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That's more of a swing to Remain than I expected, given how entrenched both sides have become, but I guess people who have turned 18 over the last five years might account for some of it - weird to think that by the time the next general election rolls around, there will be people voting who were 9 or 10 years old during the referendum.


The youth know what's right. It's the oldies that got us into this ludicrous mess.


> Nearly three quarters (73%) of 18 to 24 year-olds voted to remain, falling to under two thirds (62%) among 25-34s. A majority of those aged over 45 voted to leave, rising to 60% of those aged 65 or over. Most people with children aged ten or under voted to remain; most of those with children aged 11 or older voted to leave.
> 
> Brexit votes by age 2016 | Statista


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Oh Ed Davey



_The _Ed Davey.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 6, 2021)

In other words: those with some real experience of having to deal with EU bureaucracy didn’t like it?


----------



## Flavour (Feb 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> Can't they find an alternative market for their calamari?
> 
> There must be *somewhere *closer than the EU that will buy it...



The Falklands' nearest neighbors, Argentina and Chile (the latter of whom it has excellent relations with) are both huge squid producers and net exporters. Chile exports a massive amount of squid to the East Asian market. So no, not really. If the Falklands were to shift its squid export focus it would also have to pivot to Asia, which is not closer than Europe.



TopCat said:


> Could a calamari led trade deal lead to better relations?



The only way to improve relations is for both sides to offer olive branches really, and the Falklands is unlikely to be the one to try and instigate it. There is an ongoing dispute between the Falklands and Argentina concerning fishing waters. Indeed, Argentina's massive fishing fleet is accused of deliberately trying to catch squid (of the illex variety) that are headed towards Falklands waters to reduce the islands' catch and therefore squeeze them economically. Bit ridiculous obviously but I cannot see the Falklands offering any concessions to Argentina in order to improve relations. 

From a wider perspective, this squid dispute could have terrible ecological consequences as deliberate overfishing (illegal) of these squid will impact lots of other animals, with further ramifications for both Argentina and the Falklands.

As in the case of the UK's own fishing waters and the arguments about that, there is friction between what's good for the economy, for jobs, for people, and what's good for the environment. There are no simple answers of course; both the narratives of "leave all the fish in the sea" and "blue growth" miss the mark. What's needed is an end to industrial-scale trawler fishing and support for the small-scale fisheries whose catch does not threaten the existence of stocks (even calling fish populations "stocks" is a bit off really if you think about it, the sea isn't a fucking warehouse), and that applies pretty much everywhere. But good luck getting the big players to agree to that -- and I don't just mean China (whose boats regularly invade Chilean/Argentinian waters to fish illegally, not to mention African waters), it's Russian, US and European boats too. And when they see the powerful countries fishing illegally with impunity, smaller countries like Argentina say "well if _they're _overfishing _then I will too", _understandably so really, but it's an ongoing not-so-slow-motion train wreck that poses an existential threat to multiple ecosystems.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

Actually apologies Renew seems to have backed off campaigning to rejoin the EU. However  it has big ambitions .


> In three years, Renew will be a recognised name and brand across the UK. We will be known  for our integrity and our open approach to politics. We will have shifted the narrative on  reforming UK politics through our manifesto on how to change the political culture in the UK.  The party will have membership numbers equivalent to those of the two major parties (circa. 120,000).


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 6, 2021)

Wont someone think of the children?









						British au pairs under threat from new immigration rules - Eminetra.co.uk
					

The UK au pair childcare program is at risk of disappearing as a result of a new post.Brexit Immigration regulations, industry groups warn. An estimated 45,000 families in the UK, including many key workers such as doctors, nurses and police, rely on long-standing au pair cultural exchange...




					eminetra.co.uk


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 6, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> That's more of a swing to Remain than I expected, given how entrenched both sides have become, but I guess people who have turned 18 over the last five years might account for some of it - weird to think that by the time the next general election rolls around, there will be people voting who were 9 or 10 years old during the referendum.


It's not a huge swing tbf. A plurality rather than a majority. 

As this shitshow plays out I can see the idea of joining EFTA gaining ground. After all, that, or something similar, is what a sizeable chunk of people who voted leave expected their vote to mean.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> As this shitshow plays out I can see the idea of joining EFTA gaining ground. After all, that, or something similar, is what a sizeable chunk of people who voted leave expected their vote to mean.


including leading brexiters - not least Nigel Norway Farage
but i think the rule-taking BINO argument played out in real time and it would take a generational shift for people not to care about that anymore
eta: maybe if the new canzuk neocolonial deregulated project visibly fails a limping rUK might limp back in sometime after?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> including leading brexiters - not least Nigel Norway Farage
> but i think the rule-taking BINO argument played out in real time and it would take a generational shift for people not to care about that anymore
> eta: maybe if the new canzuk neocolonial deregulated project visibly fails a limping rUK might limp back in sometime after?


If Scotland goes for independence, it's likely to want to join EFTA pretty quickly. rUK could be left with little choice other than to follow suit.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 6, 2021)

Still punting Hoxhaist ideology 30 years on after the death of the Great Helmsman. Next level mental, really.

Wikipedia estimated the party membership at 60 in the mid 80s. Dividing that number by 10 today would probably be a generous estimate of the current ranks. I very much doubt anyone under the age of 60 as well.


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 6, 2021)

Dom Traynor said:


> I'm sure the RCPBML were Alexi Sayles lot...



No, he was part of Reg Birch’s Maoist caucus, the CPBM-L (also still extant, astonishingly, and actually have some young people pictured on their home page.)

For an added R you move from Mao’s great leap forward to Hoxha’s radical self-sufficiency and total national mobilisation. Fine margins, lads, fine margins.


----------



## gosub (Feb 6, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If Scotland goes for independence, it's likely to want to join EFTA pretty quickly. rUK could be left with little choice other than to follow suit.



The EFTA route was n't open to UK, in part, due to a size compatibility issue (not a problem for Scotland but England would still be comparatively large in comparison to EFTA member states)


----------



## mauvais (Feb 6, 2021)

Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit
					

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July




					www.theguardian.com
				




Exports down 68%, whoops. But it's probably all things that should be stopped anyway, or middle class shit.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Feb 6, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit
> 
> 
> Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July
> ...



Tough tittie Fritz. Guess you'll just have to do without your Kendall mint cake and Quavers for the foreseeable.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 6, 2021)

It's alright, we started off rich so if GDP halves we'll just be on a par with Spain. If GDP per capita halves then well it's more like Bulgaria but we can make up for that by killing a shitload of the population _somehow_.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit
> 
> 
> Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July
> ...


68Pc compared to last Jan, which was precovid , but obviously Covid won't be all of that loss.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 6, 2021)

Covid export impact figures are relatively well documented and seem to involve a drop of about 20%.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 6, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Covid export impact figures are relatively well documented and seem to involve a drop of about 20%.


great, so







 only 50%


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 6, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Wont someone think of the children?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Posh people are going to be forced to spend time with their own children at this rate


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 6, 2021)

mauvais said:


> It's alright, we started off rich so if GDP halves we'll just be on a par with Spain. If GDP per capita halves then well it's more like Bulgaria but we can make up for that by killing a shitload of the population _somehow_.


COVID will take care of that.
It just means that the exporters will sell their goods here, isn’t that how it works?. I wonder how that trade deficit is looking now.


----------



## moochedit (Feb 6, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Posh people are going to be forced to spend time with their own children at this rate



(((Posh people)))


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 6, 2021)

moochedit said:


> (((Posh people)))


(((Posh people's children)))


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 7, 2021)

steeplejack said:


> No, he was part of Reg Birch’s Maoist caucus, the CPBM-L (also still extant, astonishingly, and actually have some young people pictured on their home page.)
> 
> For an added R you move from Mao’s great leap forward to Hoxha’s radical self-sufficiency and total national mobilisation. Fine margins, lads, fine margins.


Hmm I know some of the CPBML / workers.org lot quite well. They survived by taking management jobs in the London Region of Unison and making career progression within the bureaucracy conditional on party membership.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Do the Albanians like langoustine?


They like Norman Wisdom films, apparently.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Oh Ed Davey


right on cue








						Lib Dems: Uneasy party ponders long road back to EU
					

Ed Davey wants to focus on Covid but others seek more immediate answer to lingering Brexit question.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Badgers (Feb 7, 2021)

I would like to talk more about the inner workings of this  it might help some of the pro-brexit posters.


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Covid export impact figures are relatively well documented and seem to involve a drop of about 20%.


The road haulage people’s letter to Gove says that if covid was not keeping demand for goods low then the problems caused by brexit would probably look worse. Says 40,000 new border clerks need to urgently appear, and a lot more vets.





__





						RHA
					





					www.rha.uk.net


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I would like to talk more about the inner workings of this  it might help some of the pro-brexit posters.


give us some tidbits?
you are posting anonymously here, and there are a lot of badgers in the UK


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

When the grace period expires will be the big test. No reason to think the uk govt is prepared not euro business importing here. The uk govt probably thought a further agreement is possible before then. Though there is not much good will as shown with the vaccine border debacle.

Whether  the desire from the EU to keep their exports here going will cause them to thrash something out remains to be seen.

Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Posh people are going to be forced to spend time with their own children at this rate


Is that posh people who are key workers and need someone to look after the children? This is a step backwards for women.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.


well like Bimble said above, and has been said in the run up theres supposed need for 40-50k new border agents

one fella i heard talking this week in a big business was saying the problem they have is that they've employed some new customs people for their business but they have such a backlog of customs work to do that they cant let the people who understand it take time off to train the newbies

i can imagine that might be a bit of an issue scaled up for the state. Training 50k new people into endless complex border regulations, seems a massive task to me. For scale the entirety of manchester university has 40k students across all years, so only 13k graduate every year. 50k people is a lot to teach.

Is there a big program to recruit and train happening? Ive internet searched and i cant see anything. Badgers?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> Is that posh people who are key workers and need someone to look after the children? This is a step backwards for women.


Do many families of key workers have au pairs?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.


PM me mate


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do many families of key workers have au pairs?


You're missing the point, which is that it's a choice that has been taken away. Doctors notoriously work long hours and need someone at the school gates when things go tits up.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> You're missing the point, which is that it's a choice that has been taken away. Doctors notoriously work long hours and need someone at the school gates when things go tits up.


They can still employ someone? Just have to pay minimum wage.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

I can’t think of anyone I have ever known in a high viz compulsory job to ever have an au pair. The lack of a spare bedroom would usually preclude.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> When the grace period expires will be the big test. No reason to think the uk govt is prepared not euro business importing here. The uk govt probably thought a further agreement is possible before then. Though there is not much good will as shown with the vaccine border debacle.
> 
> Whether  the desire from the EU to keep their exports here going will cause them to thrash something out remains to be seen.
> 
> Any jobs going in customs? Nephew is Maths first and needs a job.


What is this grace period?. The UK is just waving stuff through. HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> They can still employ someone? Just have to pay minimum wage.


I doubt they want 'someone', they want someone that the child knows. Most other childcare options are a lot less flexible because they take in a number of children. It was a very good system. It suited all parties.

Sorry, are we only talking about hi viz here? I have a hi viz job and a small house, and I couldn't possibly have had an au pair, but I also have an imagination.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 7, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> What is this grace period?. The UK is just waving stuff through. HM customs only has 16 more staff today than they did in 2015.


Plus 800 private sector outsourcing jobs


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> This is a step backwards for women.



Not necessarily for the (mainly women) who do the work, for less than minimum wage, and who are overworked with no recourse to anyone if things go wrong or there is (and it's not as rare as the au pair companies like to play down) abuse. Au pairs are not considered emplyees and don't get anything like full employee rights, it's completely unacceptable.

This is just one article, from the top of a search, but there are dozens like it.


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

The au pair thing, no way those jobs will get taken up locally instead, why would you want to live in someone’s spare room & look after their kids for pocket money in your own country. Only makes sense if its somewhere else, that you want to go to, with a language to learn etc.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Not necessarily for the (mainly women) who do the work, for less than minimum wage, and who are overworked with no recourse to anyone if things go wrong or there is (and it's not as rare as the au pair companies like to play down) abuse. Au pairs are not considered emplyees and don't get anything like full employee rights, it's completely unacceptable.
> 
> This is just one article, from the top of a search, but there are dozens like it.


I can't see that link.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> I can't see that link.



It works, but in case it gets broken...

Welcome to the most unregulated labour market in Britain. Since 2008, au pairs have been specifically excluded from the legal definition of “worker” or “employee”: they have no right to the national minimum wage, they are not covered by health and safety regulations, there are no limits on their working hours and they have no legal right to holidays or any time off.

In theory an au pair is a young person, normally from another EU country, who will do 25 to 30 hours of childcare and housework in exchange for room, board and “pocket money” and is treated as a member of the family. In practice, the working and living conditions of au pairs often fall far outside these expectations. Rather than being young women on a fun gap year aboard, too often au pairs are a hidden, exploited group of low-paid migrant workers. When you add to this the dominance of unregulated online agencies and high rates of youth unemployment in many EU countries that au pairs come from, it’s easy to see how problems might arise.

with another academic, Nicky Busch, found that many au pairs are carrying out long hours of work, for very low pay, often in conditions that are far outside the traditional imaginings of the role. In the absence of official data, we analysed online ads and found that the average au pair was expected to work 38.7 hours a week (hardly a part-time job). One in 10 ads were looking for 50 hours or more, with one advertising an 80-hour week. The average “pocket money” offered in return was £108 per week, but it was striking that there was no correlation between the hours to be worked and the amount offered. Some hosts offered none at all, seeing a room in their home as payment enough, and some ads didn’t even offer a room, wanting a “live-out au pair”, or for them to sleep on the sofa.

It was common for ads to set out duties that went beyond “help” with childcare and housework, including shopping, cleaning windows, caring for relatives’ children, waitressing or cooking for dinner parties, gardening, teaching a child a language, and more. One ad stated that the family wanted an au pair to help with their business as well as “helping to run the home”. Another offered “use of horse and kayak” as part of the remuneration package. Worryingly, we found that many au pairs are expected to do work that in the past would have been done by a qualified nanny, including providing sole care for babies and infants.
Interviews with au pairs reinforced this picture of “au pair” being a catch-all term for low-paid domestic work. They told us about long hours of housework, overwhelming childcare duties, and a general expectation that they could sort out all the stresses and strains of modern life for their host families.
Many of them did have good things to say about their time as au pairs and the families they lived with, but we also heard lots of comments about being treated “like a servant”. Examples included being denied opportunities to attend language classes or other activities, always being on call and being given inadequate space and even inadequate food. One summed up this grinding day-to-day denigration with a story about fruit juice. When her host mother noticed some juice missing from the fridge, she told her: “This [juice] is really expensive. If you want some juice you can tell me and I’ll buy you some cheap juice.” So much for being treated as an equal.

While Uber drivers and Deliveroo couriers are left without rights because they are deemed to be self-employed, au pairs’ work is quite simply defined as not being work. Instead they are considered to be “helping” their host families and involved in cultural exchange rather than labour, no matter how many hours of work they do or how arduous that work is. When you live with your employers, negotiating better conditions – or even just better juice – is not easy.

While the prospect of the stream of au pairs drying up post-Brexit has created some recognition of how important they are, we should also pause to consider why so many families are reliant on an unregulated, insecure and often exploited group of workers. The British Au Pairs Agencies Association has released new guidelines on what an au pair should be. At the very least, the government needs to adopt these and enforce them. But a bigger step would be to recognise childcare and housework as real work.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> I doubt they want 'someone', they want someone that the child knows. Most other childcare options are a lot less flexible because they take in a number of children. It was a very good system. It suited all parties.
> 
> Sorry, are we only talking about hi viz here? I have a hi viz job and a small house, and I couldn't possibly have had an au pair, but I also have an imagination.


Many have argued (including many existing and former au pairs) that it’s a system ripe with exploitation. 
Im not sure. Thinking about it I have never known anyone, key worker or professional type to have an au pair. I must move in different worlds.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

And let me add (now there's a post between my last and this so this is meant to be a PS to the article text) that stay-at-home parents should be paid enough in benefits (or wages) to recognize that what they do _is real work_.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Dp


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Do many urbanites have au pairs? I can’t recollect anyone saying so in 20 years.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It works, but in case it gets broken...
> 
> Welcome to the most unregulated labour market in Britain. Since 2008, au pairs have been specifically excluded from the legal definition of “worker” or “employee”: they have no right to the national minimum wage, they are not covered by health and safety regulations, there are no limits on their working hours and they have no legal right to holidays or any time off.
> 
> ...


Thank you. It sounds as though there is a lot of exploitation and that should be immediately stopped with better laws.

When I lived in London some of my mates were au pairs and had daytime jobs too. It worked very well for them but I can see how it would be open to exploitation. 

However, having juggled childcare and ultimately having downgraded my career because it wasn't workable, I don't feel anything but sorrow for the people - especially women - whose only real childcare choice has been taken away.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do many urbanites have au pairs? I can’t recollect anyone saying so in 20 years.


Most have to employ some sort of childcare if they work, I should think. Why?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> right on cue
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Councillor John Potter (no relation to his Surrey colleague) argues that highlighting the economic impact of Brexit and the consequences of Boris Johnson's trade deal with the EU are the best ways to make the case for EU membership in the longer term.





> Sir Ed appears to agree, telling the BBC: "I'm pretty firm that this trade deal is a disaster and we will make the argument that the single market and customs union are things we should be backing and campaigning on."



Must be reading or posting on here  lol


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

Come on Poot only feckless and laughable posh women pay others to look after their children whilst they swan off and do other work, outside the house. Au Pair is a funny word cos it’s foreign but Nanny is even more ridiculous. There’s nothing sexist about this though it’s just how it is.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> Most have to employ some sort of childcare if they work, I should think. Why?


That wasn’t what I asked. Has anyone taken on an au pair was the type of childcare in question.  We paid for nursery for our two kids and it was an eye watering amount. More than my net earnings. We would never have considered having an au pair though.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That wasn’t what I asked. Has anyone taken on an au pair was the type of childcare in question.  We paid for nursery for our two kids and it was an eye watering amount. More than my net earnings. We would never have considered having an au pair though.


I know of one or two but I'm not going to out them because this feels like a loaded question for some reason.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> I know of one or two but I'm not going to out them because this feels like a loaded question for some reason.


I wouldn’t want you to. It could be like a furore like about cleaners.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Must be reading or posting on here  lol


Ed banging the drum openly for rejoining in some way was quite open. If this becomes central to the LP they will never get elected.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> There’s nothing sexist about this though it’s just how it is.



Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I can’t think of anyone I have ever known in a high viz compulsory job to ever have an au pair. The lack of a spare bedroom would usually preclude.


I have never met anyone who has an au pair. We should be campaigning for an expansion of childcare at affordable and for the low paid , subsidised rates not some sort of  Indentured servitude  masked by the pretence of 'cultural exchange'.


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?


Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 7, 2021)

I can think of people on here who have or have had au pairs.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.


People who employ cleaners tend to get it in the neck to be fair. In fact any person employing poor women to do their drudgery tends to get comment.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> Because the world is sexist? I just can’t think of any other work which invites such derision of the person who pays the worker. Which is curious, imo.



Maybe the lack of worker's rights and that the whole deal smacks of exploitation is what makes it look ridiculous?


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I have never met anyone who has an au pair. We should be campaigning for an expansion of childcare at affordable and for the low paid , subsidised rates not some sort of  Indentured servitude  masked by the pretence of 'cultural exchange'.


I'm not saying it's not a noble goal but we have a Tory government ffs. There'll be no subsidising traditionally female jobs going on while this lot are in.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I can think of people on here who have or have had au pairs.


I don’t think it’s ever been openly discussed though. Maybe on the sofa thread perhaps. 

I only know people who have been au pairs


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> People who employ cleaners tend to get it in the neck to be fair. In fact any person employing poor women to do their drudgery tends to get comment.


What about people who employ handymen or gardeners? What about old people who need cleaners? What if you're a brain surgeon and don't have time to clean and you pay more than the going rate? I suspect your ire is directed at middle class women. Am I right? At least be brave enough to say it. If you're honest we can discuss it.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> What about people who employ handymen or gardeners? What about old people who need cleaners? What if you're a brain surgeon and don't have time to clean and you pay more than the going rate? I suspect your ire is directed at middle class women. Am I right? At least be brave enough to say it. If you're honest we can discuss it.


You have enough for several interesting threads there.


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Maybe the lack of worker's rights and that the whole deal smacks of exploitation is what makes it look ridiculous?


I’m not defending the au pair system!
If everyone were paid proper money for the work of childcare the world would be infinitely improved, yes.

But the joke was “posh people might be forced to spend time with their own children lol”, that’s nothing to do with worker’s conditions is it?


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 7, 2021)

One thing I would not expect a Tory government to do is cause a shortage of au pairs.

In Hong Kong and Singapore, it's totally unremarkable for someone in a middle-income job i.e teacher to employ a live-in domestic servant, around a fifth of households in both places do so and the percentage would probably be higher if the average flat was bigger than a shoebox.

In HK, they typically come from the Philippines or Indonesia - the latter country has gained favour over the last couple of decades because they are seen as less rebellious - and they get paid around 500 pounds a month for unlimited working hours six days a week. Under the law, they are in a special category where things like minimum wage and the granting of permanent residency after seven years residency do not apply.

People thought I was a bit weird for not employing one, especially after having a kid, but there was no way in hell I could ever see myself having a live-in "helper," especially not under that shitty system. But it's how a lot of households in Hong Kong managed to have both parents working the insane hours HK employers generally require, and it's part of how both places became so wealthy.

The Tories seem to bring up Singapore a lot in their vision of a post-Brexit Britain, I would be totally unsurprised if they unveiled a plan to bring in cheap domestic labour from some non-EU country in the near future.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

bimble said:


> But the joke was “posh people might be forced to spend time with their own children lol”, that’s nothing to do with worker’s conditions is it?



Fair enough, but it would be absurd to talk about this stuff as if there aren't _massive _class issues at play. How many women around the world hardly or never get to see their own kids because they're too busy looking after other people's for money? Rhetorical question btw, I imagine an actual answer is impossible to find.


----------



## bimble (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Fair enough, but it would be absurd to talk about this stuff as if there aren't _massive _class issues at play. How many women around the world hardly or never get to see their own kids because they're too busy looking after other people's for money? Rhetorical question btw, I imagine an actual answer is impossible to find.


I blame the whole idea of the nuclear family, we should be bringing up kids communally. But brexit making the au pair system stop is a step in the right direction.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 7, 2021)

Feel I need to weigh in on the au pair thing though disclaimer, I am a man and do not have children.

1. I know family members of mine who have employed au pairs -- all these family members live in the South.
2. I myself was raised by a working single mother, in Manchester -- I did not have an au pair, ever.
3. What I did have was a _childminder_ as we called them. Basically after school me and a bunch of others kid with working parents all went together to this family's house and we sat around watching CBBC (or Nickelodeon after they got cable) eating toast and generally having a laugh from the hours of 3.30pm or whenever school finished until 5.30pm or 6 or whenever the parents came to pick us up. This was the affordable childcare alternative and obviously everyone paid the family who looked after us for a couple of hours a day.

The difference between au pairs and cleaners/gardeners is that it is generally not very common for a bunch of friends to all live next door to each other and therefore hire a gardener/cleaner collectively and get some sort of discount rate on that gardener/cleaner cos you're providing them a shitload of work which will have no transport between jobs. But with au pairs the (middle class) family is choosing to dedicate a human being exclusively to their own children and therefore denying those children the opportunity to create other social bonds with other kids (the kids at my childminders place were not all in my same class at school so I made new friends) ... but this is obviously logistically easier cos kids all do go to the same schools, whereas our gardens and houses to be cleaned are necessarily distinct inanimate objects.

e2a: "But of course my children get plenty of chances to socialize with other children outside of school! That's what violin class and fencing is for!"


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Feel I need to weigh in on the au pair thing though disclaimer, I am a man and do not have children.
> 
> 1. I know family members of mine who have employed au pairs -- all these family members live in the South.
> 2. I myself was raised by a working single mother, in Manchester -- I did not have an au pair, ever.
> ...


Completely missing the point that small children can't walk to the childminder's themselves and need help with absofuckinglutely everything, and constant supervision.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> Completely missing the point that small children can't walk to the childminder's themselves and need help with absofuckinglutely everything, and constant supervision.



The childminder family picked us up from school, we didn't walk there by ourselves. They lived a 5 min walk away, even the kids in reception were up for it. But yes my mum was 100% responsible for everything that happened in the mornings before school and for cooking dinner once she got home from work -- I'm not saying it was easy for her, it bloody well wasn't. Just that there were alternatives to au pairs that were a bit more social.


----------



## Supine (Feb 7, 2021)

My mum was an au pair. She didn't earn any money but she learnt to speak Italian fluently and loved the life experience.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.

im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.
> 
> im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases


Depends where in Canada UK au pairs go I suppose


----------



## Winot (Feb 7, 2021)

Flavour said:


> But with au pairs the (middle class) family is choosing to dedicate a human being exclusively to their own children and therefore denying those children the opportunity to create other social bonds with other kids (



Au pairs (and childminders of all descriptions, including parents) tend to gather together after school to give the adults a chance to chat and the children a chance to play. Your statement exposes your prejudice and your lack of knowledge.


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> One thing I would not expect a Tory government to do is cause a shortage of au pairs.
> 
> In Hong Kong and Singapore, it's totally unremarkable for someone in a middle-income job i.e teacher to employ a live-in domestic servant, around a fifth of households in both places do so and the percentage would probably be higher if the average flat was bigger than a shoebox.
> 
> ...



I liked this whole post because it's always good to see what goes on elsewhere  and it was interesting but the last sentence worries me a lot. People are scoffing at EU au pairs and clearly there was more exploitation than I realised - I've only seen it going well, from both PoV, but yeah, laws that exploit specifically women, and specifically foreign women, are going to have to be watched like a hawk for a while. We know what they do. We know what they're capable of.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> ive googled, current number of au pairs in the uk in a year is estimated at 90k.
> 
> im sure the tories will be making some deals for easier work visas from certain countries/certain conditions- CANZUK has received the most excited chatter amongst the tory backbencher - but i guess theres not the allure of learning a new language in those cases



I had a look at the same site that you got the figures from and the thing that stood out for me was this quote 

“Au pairs currently have no protection in terms of working hours, pay and living conditions. They are only affordable because au pairing is not recognised as work, while poor conditions are justified through discourses of cultural exchange and adventure. The government introduced guidelines in June 2014, but these contain vague terms which need clarification and they need to be backed up by providing au pairs with a means of redress if they find that they are being badly treated by their host family.

“The fact that so many families are reliant on au pairs and in many cases expect them to take on full-time care of very young infants highlights once again the need for access to flexible and affordable childcare."


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

childcare is a massive issue in the UK and has been for years, i dont have kids but i don't understand how people can afford it on top of all the other costs of living. i guess retired relatives fill a gap fora lot of people, but not everyone has that


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> I liked this whole post because it's always good to see what goes on elsewhere  and it was interesting but the last sentence worries me a lot. People are scoffing at EU au pairs and clearly there was more exploitation than I realised - I've only seen it going well, from both PoV, but yeah, laws that exploit specifically women, and specifically foreign women, are going to have to be watched like a hawk for a while. We know what they do. We know what they're capable of.


Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?


the system is based on food and rent free though, so it would be an accounting exercise (once those costs were added into the bottom line)


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> the system is based on food and rent free though, so it would be an accounting exercise (once those costs were added into the bottom line)



The system in the UK and most of Europe is based on it being a 'cultural exchange' not work .


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Why, in your view, are the vast majority of au pairs female?



I personally think that 'risk' comes into this as well as seeing childcare as a female job. I think lots of people are scared of leaving males/men in charge of children. There is a long standing cultural distrust and assumption that men/males will abuse children. Just look at the way female abuse of children is treated as something unusual. It isn't though.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The system in the UK and most of Europe is based on it being a 'cultural exchange' not work .


i didnt know that, but my point is if it was treated as work with minimum wage+ people would charge for room and board too i expect


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> i didnt know that, but my point is if it was treated as work with minimum wage+ people would charge for room and board too i expect


Apparantly Ireland pays the minum wage.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly Ireland pays the minum wage.


and free room + board?


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 7, 2021)

The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very _very _arguable.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very _very _arguable.



I agree. I hate that they call financial compensation for the work au pairs do 'pocket money' too. I have known a fair few au pairs. Some have had awful experiences. Literally used as servants. List of expected duties growing once they moved in with the family and started work. Some trapped because of the upheaval of moving to a new country in the first place and dodgy agencies.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> and free room + board?


I should be charging you a google search fee , this is from 2020

*



			What are your rights as an Au Pair?
		
Click to expand...

*


> Au Pairs in Ireland are considered employees and have the same rights as any other employee, including the right to minimum wage. The minimum wage in Ireland increased to €10.10 (from €9.80) from 1 February 2020.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I have been paying attention for a lot longer than 23 years.
> If it helps you, I used nascent to refer to the recent upsurge of something that had been relatively quiet in recent times, but the problem having been given new energy because of the brexit vote.


What a pity that's not what it means


----------



## Poot (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do you think Au pairs deserve minimum wage right now?


This is difficult because if you only work, say fifteen hours a week and you are under 20, that comes to less than 100 p/w. Which is not much more than your rent, especially if you aren't paying for food. And it's a bit of a shitshow to be handing someone a tenner at the end of the week when they're neither a child nor a slave. So I'd say that terms have to be agreed in advance. Will they get a job too? Lots of au pairs work part time (or they used to before Brexit). As far as deserve - of course, everyone deserves a living wage.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 7, 2021)

Well this is all going swimmingly:









						Fury at Gove as exports to EU slashed by 68% since Brexit
					

Hauliers say Cabinet Office minister ignored their warnings, amid fears that worse is to come with introduction of import checks in July




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2021)

some people treat au pairs like slaves, most dont.


----------



## andysays (Feb 7, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> some people treat au pairs like slaves, most dont.


But the problem is that in the absence of proper employment rights, and the fact that au pairs are usually young and away from home for the first time in a foreign country means that they can, and frequently are, treated very badly and have little redress in such cases.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

Poot said:


> This is difficult because if you only work, say fifteen hours a week and you are under 20, that comes to less than 100 p/w. Which is not much more than your rent, especially if you aren't paying for food. And it's a bit of a shitshow to be handing someone a tenner at the end of the week when they're neither a child nor a slave. So I'd say that terms have to be agreed in advance. Will they get a job too? Lots of au pairs work part time (or they used to before Brexit). As far as deserve - of course, everyone deserves a living wage.



According to what passed as guidance in a  very unregulated market au pairs were/are  expected to work between 25-30 hours a week plus two nights baby sitting . I'll come back  to the neither child nor slave issue later.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2021)

.


----------



## maomao (Feb 7, 2021)

99% of people who have au pairs could be wonderful to them (I doubt it's that high) but without legal rights and protections it's just allowing preventable abuse.

I dated a Czech au pair nearly 30 years ago and heard some horror stories. Marvellous working conditions and equal status with the host family certainly wasn't the norm.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2021)

maomao said:


> 99% of people who have au pairs could be wonderful to them (I doubt it's that high) but without legal rights and protections it's just allowing preventable abuse.
> 
> I dated a Czech au pair nearly 30 years ago and heard some horror stories. Marvellous working conditions and equal status with the host family certainly wasn't the norm.




the system of AP specific visas did/ does put the AP at a disadvantage as it can be used as enforcement of less than ideal work conditions and fear on the side of the AP about their legal status should they upset their sponsor


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> The main problem with 'Free Room and Board' as 'payment' is its history IMO. Slaves, bonded labourers etc all got/get 'free room and board'. That doesn't make au pairs the same as slaves, but free room and board in exchange for long days of work has an inglorious history, to say the least. Whether it even has any place in the 21st century is very _very _arguable.


history and present, that indentured thing is still prevalent, happens in the UK too, crop pickers, sex workers, etc



teqniq said:


> Well this is all going swimmingly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


i think on other thread, its 48% if you take off covid reductions


----------



## philosophical (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> What a pity that's not what it means


What a pity that you are my own special stalker on here.


Pickman's model said:


> What a pity that's not what it means


I thought I had shed my own personal control freak stalker, but alas no.
The wanker wants to split hairs over the meaning of, and my use of the word 'nascent'. 
Typical deflection from the issue of a risk of return to troubles caused by brexit which is what my post was referencing.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I should be charging you a google search fee , this is from 2020


this should definitely be adopted in the UK, sounds a much better system. - capping the amount that can be charged is essential
good moment for it to happen, its not like the subject of au pairs ever comes up 
thanks for googling 

how many hours worked is a nebulous thing though - if you live with someone to some degree you are always working / on hand to "help"


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> What a pity that you are my own special stalker on here.
> 
> I thought I had shed my own personal control freak stalker, but alas no.
> The wanker wants to split hairs over the meaning of, and my use of the word 'nascent'.
> Typical deflection from the issue of a risk of return to troubles caused by brexit which is what my post was referencing.



If you make a choice to use fancy words to try and make yourself look clever, complaining when it is pointed out that you have used it incorrectly makes you look twice as much a dick. Streisand effect.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

The only reason I know a bit about this is my eldest daughter did an extended piece of work on au pairs when she was doing her law degree and I found it fascinating . So some more brief thoughts .
The question of whether some host families / employers are good or bad is an issue but it’s not the issue . However commendable some might be what we have or had is a situation where , in any other shape or form , temporary migratory workers have no employment rights. Not only that but the ‘living as part of the family’ becomes blurred with the host family as an employer . So things like which areas of the house the au pair can be in when not working becomes and issue ie do they eat with the family , can they use the living room , can they have friends round , can they access the kitchen at any hour , can they have mates visit or stay overnight , can boyfriends/ girlfriends stay over night , what hours and when they work becomes an issue when are they off duty? Etc etc
Another problematic area is that most au pairs are young women ( can’t be married or have children apparently ) . Living as part of the family are they treated as equals or treated like an older child/ big sister ?
Even though au pairs don’t formally require child care qualifications but many agencies insist on previous experience so that they can charge additional fees which again blurs the notion that it’s a cultural exchange . In the U.K. employers/ families do not have to pay for language lessons for au pairs .
There’s a mine field of issues to be honest that raise issues of class gender and not least race .  A glance at the U.K. au pair sites shows a virtual monopoly of images of young white blonde Northern European women being marketed not reflecting either the diversity of Europe or the skills of non white candidates .


----------



## philosophical (Feb 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you make a choice to use fancy words to try and make yourself look clever, complaining when it is pointed out that you have used it incorrectly makes you look twice as much a dick. Streisand effect.


Bollocks of course. Words are words. That you call some 'fancy' is completely down to you, not necessarily the user.
It wasn't pointed out I used the word incorrectly, it was an opinion stated for no good reason, and my use of the word wasn't 'incorrect' anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Bollocks of course. Words are words. That you call some 'fancy' is completely down to you, not necessarily the user.
> It wasn't pointed out I used the word incorrectly, it was an opinion stated for no good reason, and my use of the word wasn't 'incorrect' anyway.


Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?


----------



## andysays (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?


I don't want to get involved in an argument about the meaning of particular words, but I thought I'd read that at least some of the recent violence or threats of violence around the border were from loyalist/unionist paramilitary types


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't want to get involved in an argument about the meaning of particular words, but I thought I'd read that at least some of the recent violence or threats of violence around the border were from loyalist/unionist paramilitary types


you mean the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland the much misnamed philosophical referred to? Maybe you're right. But it wouldn't be the birth of such a thing but the rebirth as this article notes Could Brexit bring about the rebirth of a violent dissident loyalist movement? | Northern Slant which outlines the development of dissident loyalism since the gfa


----------



## philosophical (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Apart from the existence and activity of a range of non-provo republican groups for many, many years there's been enough material for whole books have been written about them over the past 23 years, to take three at random John Horgan's 'divided we stand' (2013), Maria McGlinchey's 'unfinished business' (2019), P.M. Currie and Max Taylor (eds.), 'dissident Irish republicanism' (2011), not to mention the trenchant critiques of the provisional project such as Anthony McIntyre's work. There's a range of republican political voices such as eirigi which have emerged over the past quarter of a century. To say dissident voices or activity are only nascent is to show your utter ignorance of what's been going on for more than two decades, not to mention the language where nascent refers to the birth and early development of something, so you could say in say 1970 the nascent provos. You couldn't say the same in 1992 without being thought a twat. So why you think you can say the same without having the obvious shortcomings of your claim isn't clear.i think it's because of your gross self-regard and sense of entitlement. Why do you think it is?



I didn't say _only _nascent though did I?
You have added the word 'only'.
The birth and early development is not the only definition.
A new development on an eternal theme can be described as nascent.
Art as a phenomena is always there, but new movements such as impressionism, or surrealism within art can have a nascent period.
The utterly ignorant person in this conversation is you, with your control freak stalkerish desire to start your own fight in your own vaccum over the use of a word.
Additionally it was a word used in the context of the new circumstances brought about by brexit. You are not interested in that but instead you want to wank yourself into a stupor over a single word.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I didn't say _only _nascent though did I?
> You have added the word 'only'.
> The birth and early development is not the only definition.
> A new development on an eternal theme can be described as nascent.
> ...


I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 7, 2021)

The very sunniest of the sunlit uplands are just coming into view...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> The very sunniest of the sunlit uplands are just coming into view...
> 
> View attachment 253228


If you were casting this political equivalent of titanic you'd want gert fröbe to play Boris Johnson


----------



## brogdale (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you were casting this political equivalent of titanic you'd want gert fröbe to play Boris Johnson


_Shitfinger_


----------



## belboid (Feb 7, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> how does that work then, surely the ball rises with the water, so the plughole is uncovered


You put a hole in it so it fills with water.


----------



## andysays (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you mean the nascent dissident activity in the north of Ireland the much misnamed philosophical referred to? Maybe you're right. But it wouldn't be the birth of such a thing but the rebirth as this article notes Could Brexit bring about the rebirth of a violent dissident loyalist movement? | Northern Slant which outlines the development of dissident loyalism since the gfa


TBH, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of its nascence or otherwise, just making the point that at least some of it appears to be paramilitaries of a loyalist persuasion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I'm not interested in getting into a discussion of its nascence or otherwise, just making the point that at least some of it appears to be paramilitaries of a loyalist persuasion.


As you say there've been rumblings from that area

Let's leave the nascents behind


----------



## philosophical (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.



I suppose this represents a step back from your deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote.
'Only' indeed.
That you want to focus wrongly on a word used, not a word used wrongly, when I was pretty clearly referencing a fresh threat brought about by the brexit vote speaks to your own useless desire to say something, indeed say any old bollocks, not because of what I wrote but that it was me that wrote it.
You are almost the definition of a creepy stalkerish control freak who simply has to try (and fail with) some kind of put down whenever I post anything.
You, with your lurid obsession, is the person in the miserable place.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I suppose this represents a step back from your deliberate misrepresentation of what I wrote.
> 'Only' indeed.
> That you want to focus wrongly on a word used, not a word used wrongly, when I was pretty clearly referencing a fresh threat brought about by the brexit vote speaks to your own useless desire to say something, indeed say any old bollocks, not because of what I wrote but that it was me that wrote it.
> You are almost the definition of a creepy stalkerish control freak who simply has to try (and fail with) some kind of put down whenever I post anything.
> You, with your lurid obsession, is the person in the miserable place.


There's only one of us with a peculiar obsession with the other and he's the one who constantly personalises everything with ad hominems.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I'd have thought if you had an actual case to present, a point to make, you'd be able to do it without resorting to outright lies like claims of me stalking you or showing the paucity of your miserable argument with lurid fantasies of masturbation. Neither republicanism nor loyalism have remained stagnant over the past quarter of a century and I stand by my first response, that if you think this is nascent you've not been paying attention.


Is he out of his bed again?


----------



## philosophical (Feb 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There's only one of us with a peculiar obsession with the other and he's the one who constantly personalises everything with ad hominems.



More bollocks from you.
The only time I would quote any of the rubbish you write is following your obsessive desire to respond to me when I post anything.
Otherwise you never contribute anything worth bothering with.
And I don't. 
You personalise everything with the way you deliberately initiate conflict whenever I write anything.
Creepy.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2021)

stop.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 7, 2021)

No urban AP hosts going to step forward to defend current conditions for Au Pairs? Maybe tell us of how it was done right?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

For those who might want a longer read or reads on the au pair issue  here are three articles by Prof Rosie Cox  which I found very useful and informative .


Gender, work, non-work and the invisible migrant: au pairs in contemporary Britain




__





						Gender, work, non-work and the invisible migrant: au pairs in contemporary Britain - Humanities and Social Sciences Communications
					

Campaigns by Uber drivers, Deliveroo riders and McDonalds workers have highlighted problems with the new world of platform economies and zero-hour contracts. At the same time, the Brexit process has opened up debates about the UK’s dependence on low-waged workers from the EU. Together these...




					www.nature.com
				




_Playing happy families_: rules and relationships in _au pair_ employing households in London, England.








						(PDF) Playing Happy Families: Rules and relationships in au pair employing households in London, England
					

PDF | This article examines the way that rules about use of rooms, guests and eating practices operated within au pair employing households in London,... | Find, read and cite all the research you need on ResearchGate




					www.researchgate.net
				




_The Au Pair Body_. Sex Object, Sister or Student?




__





						The Au Pair Body: Sex Object, Sister or Student?
					






					cyberleninka.org


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No urban AP hosts going to step forward to defend current conditions for Au Pairs? Maybe tell us of how it was done right?




ex host here. wat you wanna know?


----------



## mx wcfc (Feb 7, 2021)

A couple I know round the corner from me had au pairs.  They are not a rich couple.  Both of them work full time.  She is Finnish, as were the au pairs.  I think the idea was that the au pair benefitted from learning better English, in return for looking after the kid.  I doubt it was "on the cards".    All I ever saw were lonely, isolated, bored, teenaged girls sitting outside the house on their phones.  It may be different in London.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 7, 2021)

mx wcfc said:


> A couple I know round the corner from me had au pairs.  They are not a rich couple.  Both of them work full time.  She is Finnish, as were the au pairs.  I think the idea was that the au pair benefitted from learning better English, in return for looking after the kid.  I doubt it was "on the cards".    All I ever saw were lonely, isolated, bored, teenaged girls sitting outside the house on their phones.  It may be different in London.


No you get  lonely, isolated, bored, teenaged girls sitting outside the house on their phones. in London as well


----------



## TopCat (Feb 8, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> ex host here. wat you wanna know?


What were the terms of the arrangement?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 8, 2021)

A couple of sides of a4 outlining what we would expect/ what they should expect/ rough schedules ( c 30 hour a week or so). sent across in advance. language course at Morley college paid for if they wanted

eta a member of the family  rather than employer/ employee basis based on the observations above, own private study bedroom with bathroom, holiday pay, friends welcome, eat with family. big sister or cousin arrangement.parents usually came across to stay at some point

BTW, still friends with them. marriage invites etc, they still come and stay if they are in London. We still meet up with them if we are in their manor


----------



## TopCat (Feb 8, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> A couple of sides of a4 outlining what we would expect/ what they should expect/ rough schedules ( c 30 hour a week or so). sent across in advance. language course at Morley college paid for if they wanted
> 
> eta a member of the family  rather than employer/ employee basis based on the observations above, own private study bedroom with bathroom, holiday pay, friends welcome, eat with family. big sister or cousin arrangement.parents usually came across to stay at some point
> 
> BTW, still friends with them. marriage invites etc, they still come and stay if they are in London. We still meet up with them if we are in their manor


What was the remuneration?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 8, 2021)

a ton/120 a week start off. i think. extra at market rates if they fancied cleaning or had to babysit outside the normal routine


----------



## Badgers (Feb 8, 2021)

(((cider))) 









						Iconic Somerset cider business hit by Johnson's trade deal
					

The first thing people ask when they find out you are from Somerset is “how much cider do you drink?”  The apple-based drink is synonymous with our county. It has imprinted itself on our culture, forming much of our history and traditions. For instance, wassailing is an ancient West Country...




					westcountrybylines.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Feb 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> _Shitfinger_


That could actually be a film concentrating on the first couple of weeks of lockdown 2020.


----------



## bimble (Feb 8, 2021)

Government says that the road haulage association is lying and everything is actually fine, or at least it’s been fine on some days. Which is quite bold of them, in a way.








						Government hits back at claims Brexit is stifling exports to EU
					

Whitehall rejects reports of 68% drop in goods exported and says freight flows at normal levels on some days




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## teqniq (Feb 8, 2021)

Government says somebody else is lying. Doctor, my sides.


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Well this is all going swimmingly:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a fucking joke:


"The volume of exports going through British ports to the EU fell by a staggering 68% last month compared with January last year, mostly as a result of problems caused by Brexit, the _Observer_ can reveal.

The dramatic drop in the volume of traffic carried on ferries and through the Channel tunnel has been reported to Cabinet Office minister Michael Gove by the Road Haulage Association after a survey of its international members. In a letter to Gove dated 1 February, the RHA’s chief executive, Richard Burnett, also told the minister he and his officials had repeatedly warned over several months of problems and called for measures to lessen difficulties – but had been largely ignored.

In particular he had made clear throughout last year there was an urgent need to increase the number of customs agents to help firms with mountains of extra paperwork. The number now, around 10,000, is still about a fifth of what the RHA says is required to handle the massive increase in paperwork facing exporters.

Burnett told the _Observer_ that in addition to the 68% fall-off in exports, about 65%-75% of vehicles that had come over from the EU were going back empty because there were no goods for them to return with, due to hold-ups on the UK side, and because some UK companies had either temporarily or permanently halted exports to the EU. “I find it deeply frustrating and annoying that ministers have chosen not to listen to the industry and experts,” he said."


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Government says that the road haulage association is lying and everything is actually fine, or at least it’s been fine on some days. Which is quite bold of them, in a way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


read that last night and IIRC they're trying to muddy the water - they're saying "there's loads of trucks making the crossing" - the answer to which is they're effectively half empty -hauling 50% less than normal


----------



## bimble (Feb 8, 2021)

22,000 tonnes more potatoes for us to enjoy then. With the oysters. 








						No relaxation of EU ban on seed potato imports from the UK
					

The Scottish seed potato sector is thoroughly disappointed by the confirmation that there will be no relaxation of the EU ban on imports of seed potatoes from the UK. Although the matter was…




					www.freshplaza.com


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2021)

*threads now merged


----------



## ska invita (Feb 8, 2021)

editor said:


> *threads now merged


rejoined shirley


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2021)

According to the BBC, Irish government has just announced that NI residents crossing the border could be fined €100.

Garda now carrying out random vehicle testing...


----------



## Serge Forward (Feb 8, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> (((Posh people's children)))


(((Posh people's children's au pairs)))


----------



## bimble (Feb 8, 2021)

andysays said:


> According to the BBC, Irish government has just announced that NI residents crossing the border could be fined €100.
> 
> Garda now carrying out random vehicle testing...


If they’ve got oysters in back of the car or what ?


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> If they’ve got oysters in back of the car or what ?


Checking which side of the border people are from and fining them if they're from the wrong side.

Back in November, Leo Varadkar said there was no chance of a cross border travel ban.


----------



## bimble (Feb 8, 2021)

Why a travel ban? Covid ? Sounds mad.


----------



## andysays (Feb 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> Why a travel ban? Covid ? Sounds mad.


Yeah, it's because of Covid, but as Varadakar said back in November,  they don't have a travel ban with Poland, why should they have one with NI...


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2021)

bimble said:


> 22,000 tonnes more potatoes for us to enjoy then. With the oysters.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Never seen a commercially grown U.K. spud over here in Portugal .


----------



## hitmouse (Feb 8, 2021)

For what it's worth, it looks like some people are currently attempting to organise among nannies/au pairs: Home | Nanny Solidarity Network
There's also a petition to restore the pre-2012 Overseas Domestic Worker visa, which had a route to settlement: Pledge your support
Some interesting stuff about childcare and domestic work here, although not directly Brexit-related: Child care Archives • Solidarity and Care


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2021)

Badgers said:


> (((cider)))
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I live a drop of cider but again aside from tosh like Strongbow and  Sommersby very rarely see UK stuff over here. I found some Stowford Press once in a supermarket , an English bar selling Thatchers and in Albufeira Magners  but no proper stuff . Occasionally see French or Spanish cider and Sagres do their own. I went to order some cider from the U.K. a couple of years ago but the postage / delivery cost was eye watering .


----------



## miktheword (Feb 8, 2021)

There isn't a travel across borders ban for essential work or support bubbles, medical reasons. Not really different from the moving out of your county ban or 5km ban that they could fine people for before in lockdowns, There was an anomaly that you couldn't be fined for crossing from the north into the Republic. Anomaly now corrected. I'll be crossing the border in a few hours 
I still expect it to be busy. For example, the Asda in Strabane is a couple of  hundred yards from Lifford in Donegal, many can use that as their essential local shop.


----------



## editor (Feb 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I live a drop of cider but again aside from tosh like Strongbow and  Sommersby very rarely see UK stuff over here. I found some Stowford Press once in a supermarket , an English bar selling Thatchers and in Albufeira Magners  but no proper stuff . Occasionally see French or Spanish cider and Sagres do their own. I went to order some cider from the U.K. a couple of years ago but the postage / delivery cost was eye watering .


You may not see it around but it looks like it was providing them with some much-needed income after the cancellation of festivals:



> “Brexit is a disaster for sales. We can no longer send small parcels to the EU directly, as it is too complicated and the carriers don’t want to take the risk. Imports and exports are suddenly much more expensive. Our glass and barrels which come from Europe are expensive, as also are our paper, our boxes and other items. It has completely decimated our trade with Europe.”


----------



## prunus (Feb 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never seen a commercially grown U.K. spud over here in Portugal .



Have you seen locally-grown spuds grown from seed potatoes imported from the UK though?  Not that there’d be any way to know in the supermarket etc I shouldn’t think?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Never seen a commercially grown U.K. spud over here in Portugal .


no jersey royals?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> no jersey royals?


nope.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2021)

prunus said:


> Have you seen locally-grown spuds grown from seed potatoes imported from the UK though?  Not that there’d be any way to know in the supermarket etc I shouldn’t think?


I'm good on potato varieties, I've grown them for years in the UK and grow some over here so I would recognise them. There's a big agricultural co-op a few miles away and they do seed potatoes , the only interesting ones I have seen are German fingerling potatoes.  Potatoes in Portuguese cuisine is mainly boiled or chipped tbh occasionally very slow roasted with lots of garlic and olive oil so they are like cracked potatoes.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 8, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> nope.


to be honest jersey royals have never been the same since they stopped using sea weed. Charlotte isn't a bad potato so is Pink Fir Apple


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

Reading a few bits about the negotiations that are happening between the UK and India to arrive at a trade deal.
Does anyone have a clue what the first paragraph in here might be about ? The uk wants India to be more ‘flexible with its data norms’ in exchange for lowering tariffs. 
What does that mean?








						Trade Deal: UK seeks flexible data norms, keen to push trade deal | India Business News - Times of India
					

India Business News: The UK has sought flexibility in India’s data norms as part of the talks for a trade and investment treaty, something that the government is unwilling




					timesofindia.indiatimes.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 9, 2021)

Brexit: 'Under-loved' fish renamed for British tastes
					

The spider crab and megrim sole are to be rebranded to get rid of "negative connotations".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Reading a few bits about the negotiations that are happening between the UK and India to arrive at a trade deal.
> Does anyone have a clue what the first paragraph in here might be about ? The uk wants India to be more ‘flexible with its data norms’ in exchange for lowering tariffs.
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


despite appearing to be in english, data norms is in fact a hindi phrase which means markets, but with an implication of the colonial era.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Reading a few bits about the negotiations that are happening between the UK and India to arrive at a trade deal.
> Does anyone have a clue what the first paragraph in here might be about ? The uk wants India to be more ‘flexible with its data norms’ in exchange for lowering tariffs.
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


John Tory
Sea Boss
White Cliffs of Dover Sole
European Smelt (no need for re-name)
etc...


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> despite appearing to be in english, data norms is in fact a hindi phrase which means markets, but with an implication of the colonial era.



really? 
I think it’s something about where data can be stored.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> really?
> I think it’s something about where data can be stored.


that'd be a store of some kind


----------



## two sheds (Feb 9, 2021)

It's about Norm who's in charge of all the data: "can I speak to Data Norm please?"


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

The fun bit is that India’s trade deal with the EU has run out and a new one is being negotiated at the same time as the UK is looking to make its own, so liz truss was ushered into a room in Delhi last week straight after the EU trade commissioner bloke left.
I’m curious about how this stuff works but the outcome of it probably won’t make any visible difference to my life.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> The fun bit is that India’s trade deal with the EU has run out and a new one is being negotiated at the same time as the UK is looking to make its own, so liz truss was ushered into a room in Delhi last week straight after the EU trade commissioner bloke left.
> I’m curious about how this stuff works but the outcome of it probably won’t make any visible difference to my life.




I think we're demanding they lower the tax on Scotch in exchange for India flooding the UK with cheap textiles and more crap handbags than even Hounslow High Street could ever hope to hold.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> The fun bit is that India’s trade deal with the EU has run out and a new one is being negotiated at the same time as the UK is looking to make its own, so liz truss was ushered into a room in Delhi last week straight after the EU trade commissioner bloke left.
> I’m curious about how this stuff works but the outcome of it probably won’t make any visible difference to my life.


i'm told there'll be a farce on at the theatre royal on the haymarket based on this, with lots of confusion between trade delegations and ushering into wardrobes and so forth, watch out for further news of liz truss's passage to india


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

Welsh lambs are on their way to India for the first time in their lives. That’s a long way. Presumably they are dead before the journey.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I think we're demanding they lower the tax on Scotch in exchange for India flooding the UK with cheap textiles and more crap handbags than even Hounslow High Street could ever hope to hold.


there's already been much gnashing of teeth as the indians found out that truss couldn't tell the difference between their cheap cigarettes and bidets


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Welsh lambs are on their way to India for the first time in their lives. That’s a long way. Presumably they are dead before the journey.


they'll be dead when they get there anyway


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> The fun bit is that India’s trade deal with the EU has run out and a new one is being negotiated at the same time as the UK is looking to make its own, so liz truss was ushered into a room in Delhi last week straight after the EU trade commissioner bloke left.
> I’m curious about how this stuff works but the outcome of it probably won’t make any visible difference to my life.


The biggest issue for India has been the easing of UK visa requirements for Indians, a long-term bone of contention. I don't know how that bit is coming along. This is from September  - priorities may have changed since then, I don't know. 

Will provide an interesting compare and contrast if the two deals are wrapped up at the same time.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 9, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there's already been much gnashing of teeth as the indians found out that truss couldn't tell the difference between their cheap cigarettes and _bidets_



Is this autocorrect? Bidis innit.  (I was left wondering what crushed ceramics smoked like)


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 9, 2021)

teqniq said:


> Is this autocorrect? Bidis innit.


yeh truss can't tell the difference between bidets and bidis which have both come up in the trade discussions


----------



## kabbes (Feb 9, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The biggest issue for India has been the easing of UK visa requirements for Indians, a long-term bone of contention. I don't know how that bit is coming along. This is from September  - priorities may have changed since then, I don't know.
> 
> Will provide an interesting compare and contrast if the two deals are wrapped up at the same time.


I don’t know what the visa requirements actually are but my company never seems  to have a problem with whatever they are; we have a regular inwards flow of people coming to work in London from  our Indian office and many have subsequently stayed  many years.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> Reading a few bits about the negotiations that are happening between the UK and India to arrive at a trade deal.
> Does anyone have a clue what the first paragraph in here might be about ? The uk wants India to be more ‘flexible with its data norms’ in exchange for lowering tariffs.
> What does that mean?
> 
> ...


Currently UK companies aren't allowed to send data to India it has to stay on servers here in the UK and anybody accessing it from India has to follow the same rules as if they were based here in the UK. This means that Indian companies are restricted in bidding for IT work here since they either have to partner with someone in the UK or set up a subsidiary here. Either costs moolah and they could offer services cheaper if they could use servers in India. I would imagine that they would be asking the UK Govt to loosen privacy and security legislation to make it easier for them to do that.  India can't compete with the Chinese on cheap manufacturing but they do have a large IT services industtry.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I don’t know what the visa requirements actually are but my company never seems  to have a problem with whatever they are; we have a regular inwards flow of people coming to work in London from  our Indian office and many have subsequently stayed  many years.


From what I remember when Theresa May went to India in 2016, its about the total number of people that will be given permission to come the UK from India. More than at present. That doesn't just include bankers, it means other "skilled workers", and also students were mentioned at the time.


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Currently UK companies aren't allowed to send data to India it has to stay on servers here in the UK and anybody accessing it from India has to follow the same rules as if they were based here in the UK. This means that Indian companies are restricted in bidding for IT work here since they either have to partner with someone in the UK or set up a subsidiary here. Either costs moolah and they could offer services cheaper if they could use servers in India. I would imagine that they would be asking the UK Govt to loosen privacy and security legislation to make it easier for them to do that.  India can't compete with the Chinese on cheap manufacturing but they do have a large IT services industtry.


But it’s the UK demanding that India be ‘more flexible’ and Indian government not wanting to, according to that incomprehensible news article. Idk.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> But it’s the UK demanding that India be ‘more flexible’ and Indian government not wanting to, according to that incomprehensible news article. Idk.


So "be more flexible" is probably diplomatic slang for "stop expecting us to be more flexible".


----------



## bimble (Feb 9, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From what I remember when Theresa May went to India in 2016, its about the total number of people that will be given permission to come the UK from India. More than at present. That doesn't just include bankers, it means other "skilled workers", and also students were mentioned at the time.


Yep.
Old article here but it just highlights an inevitable conundrum of brexit really, this governments long standing pledge to reduce immigration to the tens of thousands which they’ve been working on by making it harder & less attractive to come here, is not helping when trying to go on about outward looking global Britain etc. 
And if the research in this below is right, brits don’t want more immigrants from anywhere apart from English speaking preferably blonde countries.








						Britons ready to sacrifice trade deals than allow higher levels of immigration from India/non-EU states
					






					www.thehindubusinessline.com


----------



## ska invita (Feb 9, 2021)

bimble said:


> And if the research in this below is right, brits don’t want more immigrants from anywhere apart from English speaking preferably blonde countries.


Tory MPs likewise, hence their CANZUK dream. But in the short term it will be interesting to see how many people come from Hong Kong and how they are treated, by the public and state. Also what level of wealth the migrants will bring. There is a lot of poverty in HK - its not just rich bankers. Will they make it here?

There is a Tory hierarchy of good/bad immigrants for sure. I expect some "skilled workers" from India will also be relatively welcome by the Tories, for historic and cultural reasons.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From what I remember when Theresa May went to India in 2016, its about the total number of people that will be given permission to come the UK from India. More than at present. That doesn't just include bankers, it means other "skilled workers", and also students were mentioned at the time.


Fair enough but I’m not talking about “bankers” (I don’t even work for a bank, for a start).  I’m talking about everyday data clerks.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 10, 2021)

Capita getting the contract to take and process duty/tariff payments I hear. 

#brexitbonus


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 10, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit: 'Under-loved' fish renamed for British tastes
> 
> 
> The spider crab and megrim sole are to be rebranded to get rid of "negative connotations".
> ...



Crabs in 'fish now' shocker.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 10, 2021)

Thread renamed!   

I might even return when not overdue to go to work , to catch up with the last million pages since I was last on here


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> But it’s the UK demanding that India be ‘more flexible’ and Indian government not wanting to, according to that incomprehensible news article. Idk.


I am alas no more privy to the negotiations than anyone else but I would guess that the UK Govt wants the current trading agreement to continue as is and the Indians have seen a chance to get us to give them more so I would lay good money that Raheem is spot on.
Loosening the restrictions on data going to India is not really in the UK Govt's interest. They may not (and probably don't) care about individual privacy but allowing data from UK servers to move to Indian ones is not necessarily a good idea. It may benefit Indian companies but would negatively impact on UK companies doing business with European and North American companies. This is particularly true for European banks who aren't going to be happy with the idea that they send data to the UK who then forward it to India where it is out of their control but they are still liable for whatever happens to it.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Capita getting the contract to take and process duty/tariff payments I hear.
> 
> #brexitbonus


God help us, I've worked on contracts managed by Capita in the past. they're the biggest bunch of fucking imbeciles I've ever encountered in my life.


----------



## bimble (Feb 10, 2021)

Interesting little jangly belt jewellery choice by truss last week.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 10, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Fair enough but I’m not talking about “bankers” (I don’t even work for a bank, for a start).  I’m talking about everyday data clerks.


They will have complied with the rules. Ie your company pays more than £25k to its everyday data clerks, or those everyday data clerks come under the category of a 'shortage occupation', or they have specific experience in everyday data from their previous work that it is difficult to find in applicants from the UK. If they have degrees, that will also help.

Recruiting people from outside the UK

Presumably your company has people (lawyers) who are skilled in doing this stuff. But any idea that it is somehow easy or straightforward to do is simply not true.


----------



## MrSki (Feb 10, 2021)

So Britain is a less important export market to the German economy.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2021)

Cadbury To Relocate Dairy Milk Production From Germany To UK with £15m investment 









						Cadbury To Relocate Dairy Milk Production From Germany To UK
					

Cadbury Dairy Milk Will Be Manufactured In Bourneville From 2022




					www.euroweeklynews.com


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

this is trending on twitter for some reason --- i guess because its depressingly entertaining hearing the likes of the Baroness speaking delusional nonsense

highlight has to be her calling for a land customs border between Ireland and NI, and blaming the "playing hardball" EU for stopping that from happening 




It does though look like the Border In The Sea issue isn't going to go away anytime soon. I wonder how long before its officially a crisis


----------



## Badgers (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> It does though look like the Border In The Sea issue isn't going to go away anytime soon. I wonder how long before its officially a crisis


It is about to get a lot lot worse sadly.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Cadbury To Relocate Dairy Milk Production From Germany To UK with £15m investment
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Chocolates gak now anyway, maybe they'll fix it as well?




Badgers said:


> It is about to get a lot lot worse sadly.



But Brexit only affects the Remoaning Middle Class?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> It is about to get a lot lot worse sadly.


im sure thats true, once the grace period ends

hard to see what the options are here other than

-NI has to lump it (with the danger it will lead to Unionist direct action)
-UK blows up the deal and implement Johnsons throw it in the bin plan after all, leading to breakdown in relations with the EU
-UK attempts to renegotiate which I cant see achieving much beyond generating anti EU headlines in the UK press

?
Thats all i've got.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 10, 2021)

bimble said:


> Interesting little jangly belt jewellery choice by truss last week.   View attachment 253615


If we are going to comment on jewellery then I think we should also mention what seem to be mini-lamp-posts made out of chandeliers.


----------



## Treacle Toes (Feb 10, 2021)

Obviously very one sided soundbite interviews but are tensions rising in NI?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Obviously very one sided soundbite interviews but are tensions rising in NI?



I think it's fair to say they are given the recent loyalist activity in belfast


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

Rutita1 said:


> Obviously very one sided soundbite interviews but are tensions rising in NI?



everything they say is true - BJ absolutely bare face lied, repeatedly,  and fucked them off as the cost of no customs union.
I cant imagine a single person in NI is going to be thinking otherwise.

Question is what comes next.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 10, 2021)

I mean, who could possibly have predicted this?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> everything they say is true - BJ absolutely bare face lied, repeatedly,  and fucked them off as the cost of no customs union.
> I cant imagine a single person in NI is going to be thinking otherwise.
> 
> Question is what comes next.


You won't believe what happens next


----------



## Badgers (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im sure thats true, once the grace period ends
> 
> hard to see what the options are here other than
> 
> ...


Yup, the grace period is almost over and the paperwork is about to become a shit show sad to say. I was given three hours today to try and understand the process. Three weeks might have been manageable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Yup, the grace period is almost over and the paperwork is about to become a shit show sad to say. I was given three hours today to try and understand the process. Three weeks might have been manageable.


Yeh but where would be the fun in that then?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im sure thats true, once the grace period ends
> 
> hard to see what the options are here other than
> 
> ...


A renegotiation that involves a substantial commitment from the UK to align with the EU in return for far simpler trading terms. ie the thing they should have done in the first place. It would of course be a humiliating climbdown and they probably won't do it, but that doesn't mean it isn't an option. It is and always was.


----------



## alex_ (Feb 10, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> A renegotiation that involves a substantial commitment from the UK to align with the EU in return for far simpler trading terms. ie the thing they should have done in the first place. It would of course be a humiliating climbdown and they probably won't do it, but that doesn't mean it isn't an option. It is and always was.



“in a negotiation don’t seem desperate”


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2021)

alex_ said:


> “in a negotiation don’t seem desperate”


In a negotiation have negotiators who can negotiate


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 10, 2021)

alex_ said:


> “in a negotiation don’t seem desperate”


That bird flew off long ago.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> im sure thats true, once the grace period ends
> 
> hard to see what the options are here other than
> 
> ...





ska invita said:


> everything they say is true - BJ absolutely bare face lied, repeatedly,  and fucked them off as the cost of no customs union.
> I cant imagine a single person in NI is going to be thinking otherwise.
> 
> Question is what comes next.


There’s a very select group of people that have been randomly picked in that video. Jamie Bryson wanted a no deal Brexit , and a couple of years ago wanted wall to be built between the south and the north a la Trump.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 10, 2021)

The Republicans tried to assasinate Maggie, it will be ultimate irony if the Unionists take a pop at Boris


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 10, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The Republicans tried to assasinate Maggie, it will be ultimate irony if the Unionists take a pop at Boris


They'll have to join the queue and wait their turn


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

z


----------



## ska invita (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There’s a very select group of people that have been randomly picked in that video. Jamie Bryson wanted a no deal Brexit , and a couple of years ago wanted wall to be built between the south and the north a la Trump.


sure three talking heads is never representative
but who in NI would be happy with how Johnsons has played Brexit for NI?

Loyalists will be livid because of the border in the sea BJ said no british prime minister would allow
Unionists will see it as another sign of being screwed by Westminster
Anyone in between will also have heard BJ's Over My Dead Body lies and will be aware of the new border problems
I cant see who in NI would be sympathetic to what Johnsons has done here


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 10, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> I mean, who could possibly have predicted this?



Leave won.

Get over it.

(Am I doing it right?)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> sure three talking heads is never representative
> but who in NI would be happy with how Johnsons has played Brexit for NI?
> 
> Loyalists will be livid because of the border in the sea BJ said no british prime minister would allow
> ...


Don't think many , possibly anyone. That wasn't my point though , which was that the video might come over as a random vox pop but its clearly not.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don't think many , possibly anyone. That wasn't my point though , which was that the video might come over as a random vox pop but its clearly not.


Having said that , I actually haven't seen any polls  re Northern Ireland


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

Stock trading should probably be filed with au pairs and live animal exports as nefarious things that brexit is cleaning from our island. Amsterdam was the finance capital of Europe before wasn't it, a few hundred years ago i think, swings & roundabouts.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Stock trading should probably be filed with au pairs and live animal exports as nefarious things that brexit is cleaning from our island. Amsterdam was the finance capital of Europe before wasn't it, a few hundred years ago i think, swings & roundabouts.
> View attachment 253726


We need another June 18. Get the RTS EU supporters to defend the city.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> Stock trading should probably be filed with au pairs and live animal exports as nefarious things that brexit is cleaning from our island. Amsterdam was the finance capital of Europe before wasn't it, a few hundred years ago i think, swings & roundabouts.
> View attachment 253726


The Beeb have a story about it as well








						Brexit: London loses out as Europe's top share trading hub
					

Amsterdam ousts London in the wake of Brexit changes, as the Bank of England warns over EU financial rules.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				



Whilst (I suspect to the disappointment of many here) the City of London is in no danger of disappearing. I don't think there is any doubt that it now faces a period of decline, how fast or how much has yet to be determined.


----------



## flypanam (Feb 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Question is what comes next.


Historically they would shoot some catholics to the point that they would get a wholly sympathetic ear.
I’m pretty sure this will happen but given the talk of a single unionist voice I think the bigger play will be for an Ulster covenant 2.0 with a hope for a repeat of the Ulster Workers’ Strike 1974.
Whether they can mobilise huge numbers is the question.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The Beeb have a story about it as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I suspect that any decline will relate to specific and limited sectors of business with the 27 but the main function of the City as the conduit for between 20 - 30% of global wealth funnelling to other tax havens will persist as long as corporate and oligarchic greed exist.


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The Beeb have a story about it as well
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don’t understand what the arguments might look like but if it’s about the EU allowing Uk finance firms access to EU clients whilst operating under different rules (whatever rules the UK chooses for its own financial sector) then what motivation is there for EU to agree to that ?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 11, 2021)

Having comparatively lax standards and box ticking detached regulatory supervision really isn’t the way to attract and retain serious business.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We need another June 18. Get the RTS EU supporters to defend the city.


I'm thinking of setting up a Twitter account of Bimbles posts , it would be in contention for FBPE  parody account of the year


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You won't believe what happens next


EU are taking a leaf out of Johnsons book by saying that these are 'teething problems'


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm thinking of setting up a Twitter account of Bimbles posts , it would be in contention for FBPE  parody account of the year


Really? You must lead a very sheltered life, over there, in the EU.


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Having comparatively lax standards and box ticking detached regulatory supervision really isn’t the way to attract and retain serious business.


Why not? Isn’t that what Singapore and Liechtenstein have?


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 11, 2021)

Singapore is actually the opposite of what people assume it is : an island of relative control in a regional sea of of corruption


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Brexit: 'Under-loved' fish renamed for British tastes
> 
> 
> The spider crab and megrim sole are to be rebranded to get rid of "negative connotations".
> ...



Renaming unpopular slimy things seems like the kind of policy Johnson's government could get behind - "Meet the new Minister for the Cabinet Office, Michael Lionheart."


----------



## kabbes (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what the arguments might look like but if it’s about the EU allowing Uk finance firms access to EU clients whilst operating under different rules (whatever rules the UK chooses for its own financial sector) then what motivation is there for EU to agree to that ?


Just because you have harmonised regulations, doesn’t mean you have harmonised interpretation and application of those regulations.  The UK have always had much tighter regulation of its financial sector than other EU countries, always being a step ahead of whatever process the EU introduced.  France and Germany are also good but the other EU states are a relative joke.  

You succeed as a financial sector by being more stable, not more volatile.  Since Brexit, the PRA and FCA have been trying to figure out what from the EU regulations works and which of it needs more tightening, more than which of it can now be dumped.

There’s also plenty of precedent for the EU accepting “equivalence” from other territories regarding financial regulations.  This is saying that they recognise there are differences but the controls are equivalently strong, meaning it’s ok to have access to the EU market.  Switzerland would be an example — FINMA don’t apply Solvency II but EIOPA grant their regime equivalence.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Renaming unpopular slimy things seems like the kind of policy Johnson's government could get behind - "Meet the new Minister for the Cabinet Office, Michael Lionheart."


I was always surprised as a youth when I found out that Rock Salmon was in fact a species of shark.  Megrim  was rebranded as Cornish Sole, Witch has  been marketed as Torbay Sole  , pilchards sometimes as Cornish Sardines,  Scotch halibut  isnt halibut but wolf fish, Sainsburys for some reason started selling pollock as 'colin'.


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Just because you have harmonised regulations, doesn’t mean you have harmonised interpretation and application of those regulations.  The UK have always had much tighter regulation of its financial sector than other EU countries, always being a step ahead of whatever process the EU introduced.  France and Germany are also good but the other EU states are a relative joke.
> 
> You succeed as a financial sector by being more stable, not more volatile.  Since Brexit, the PRA and FCA have been trying to figure out what from the EU regulations works and which of it needs more tightening, more than which of it can now be dumped.
> 
> There’s also plenty of precedent for the EU accepting “equivalence” from other territories regarding financial regulations.  This is saying that they recognise there are differences but the controls are equivalently strong, meaning it’s ok to have access to the EU market.  Switzerland would be an example — FINMA don’t apply Solvency II but EIOPA grant their regime equivalence.


So many acronyms. I see that Bermuda has also been granted equivalence by the EU, at least for their insurance sector. The world is so complicated.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> So many acronyms. I see that Bermuda has also been granted equivalence by the EU, at least for their insurance sector. The world is so complicated.


So complicated and yet, at heart, so simple; neoliberal states arrange their affairs to promote wealth defence. Nothing about Brexit or remaining will alter the core function of the City to move unearned income beyond the tax jurisdictions where it is generated.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> So many acronyms. I see that Bermuda has also been granted equivalence by the EU, at least for their insurance sector. The world is so complicated.


Bermuda has an incredibly strong insurance regime, as befits one of the three largest centres of insurance in the world.  It’s a good example of how being a tax shelter is not synonymous with having lax regulation— quite the reverse.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Leave won.
> 
> Get over it.
> 
> (Am I doing it right?)


I can understand some of  the reasons why some people may have voted leave - maybe they were voting for that weekly £350m for the NHS that turned out to be a bag of Farage lies - but what I find absolutely incomprehensible is how those people still think that this ongoing clusterfuck is a 'success' by any definition. It's a fucking disaster.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 11, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Bermuda has an incredibly strong insurance regime,


Is this a consequence of a lot of things "going missing"?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 11, 2021)

The EU's response to Goves letter:

" In his letter, Sefcovic laid out areas where the UK has failed to meet promises made last December under the protocol, including the establishment of fully operational border posts to carry out checks at Northern Irish ports, and failure to provide EU customs officials with real time access to key customs IT systems. He said addressing such “teething problems” was a “prerequisite to assess whether further” flexibility demanded by the UK was “necessary and justified”. The issues will be raised at Thursday’s meeting, said the letter.

 Sefcovic also rebuffed demands for a relaxation of trade barriers in areas like pet passports, food products and seeds travelling from mainland Britain to Northern Ireland. The letter says such demands would require the UK to first fully align with EU regulations in these areas."


The suggestion that there aren't even proper border posts yet is an interesting one. The government position has been Throw forms in the bin, Threatenting to break the agreed Withdrawal Agreement, and Having cake and eating it. Are the Tories dragging their feet like belligerent children, or are they thinking there's no point paying to build stuff that we're not actually going to follow through on, because of some other plan not to respect the Withrdawal Agreement down the line?

I get the impression from Badgers that they're just been slow and reluctant about it, and the whole process is one of them being dragged by the hair to the new reality they have created.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was always surprised as a youth when I found out that Rock Salmon was in fact a species of shark.  Megrim  was rebranded as Cornish Sole, Witch has  been marketed as Torbay Sole  , pilchards sometimes as Cornish Sardines,  Scotch halibut  isnt halibut but wolf fish, Sainsburys for some reason started selling pollock as 'colin'.


Pollock has a reputation as a cheapo fish, doesn't it, the poor cousin of cod. Probably to do with that.

Novel idea giving your fish human names to encourage people to eat them.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don't think many , possibly anyone. That wasn't my point though , which was that the video might come over as a random vox pop but its clearly not.



No, it's clear that everyone in that film are loyalists, their accents tell you that, plus one is even wearing a Glasgow Rangers hat.

But that doesn't make what ska invita said any less valid:



ska invita said:


> everything they say is true - BJ absolutely bare face lied, repeatedly,  and fucked them off as the cost of no customs union.
> I cant imagine a single person in NI is going to be thinking otherwise.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Loyalists will be livid because of the border in the sea BJ said no british prime minister would allow
> Unionists will see it as another sign of being screwed by Westminster
> Anyone in between will also have heard BJ's Over My Dead Body lies and will be aware of the new border problems
> I cant see who in NI would be sympathetic to what Johnsons has done here


Well he's asked for it then


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pollock has a reputation as a cheapo fish, doesn't it, the poor cousin of cod. Probably to do with that.
> 
> Novel idea giving your fish human names to encourage people to eat them.


Yes it does . I think in the UK many people just want cod . Funnily enough here hake is sort of dismissed as a cheap fish but in the UK it isnt .


----------



## prunus (Feb 11, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pollock has a reputation as a cheapo fish, doesn't it, the poor cousin of cod. Probably to do with that.
> 
> Novel idea giving your fish human names to encourage people to eat them.



" In 2009, UK supermarket Sainsbury's briefly renamed Atlantic pollock "colin" in a bid to boost ecofriendly sales of the fish as an alternative to cod. Sainsbury's, which said the new name was derived from the French for cooked pollock (_colin_), launched the product under the banner "Colin and chips can save British cod." "

I assume the French colin comes from the same source as coley, which is what the other species of pollock is called in the UK.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t understand what the arguments might look like but if it’s about the EU allowing Uk finance firms access to EU clients whilst operating under different rules (whatever rules the UK chooses for its own financial sector) then what motivation is there for EU to agree to that ?




If you win the Euromillions tomorrow that's just shy of £150m, you can't deposit that in your Nat West account (well, you could, but for the love of god please don't). You need somewhere that is secure for it to sit. The City provides a very secure environment for money, there will be no bonfire of regulations as that would make it less secure.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, it's clear that everyone in that film are loyalists, their accents tell you that, plus one is even wearing a Glasgow Rangers hat.
> 
> But that doesn't make what ska invita said any less valid:


I think its politics and activity  rather than accents and football hats that normally defines loyalists tbh


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think its politics and activity  rather than accents and football hats that normally defines loyalists tbh



Ask any Irish or Scottish Catholic to look at that and not whisper the word "Hun" and you might have a point.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you win the Euromillions tomorrow that's just shy of £150m, you can't deposit that in your Nat West account (well, you could, but for the love of god please don't)


If I won the euro millions I’d totally put it into my normal current account, just so I could have the novelty of seeing the amount on a bank statement / atm screen.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2021)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> If I won the euro millions I’d totally put it into my normal current account, just so I could have the novelty of seeing the amount on a bank statement / atm screen.




Well yeah, of course, you could spend hours at the atm asking to see your balance, maybe print it too. But as only £85,000 out of your £150,000,000 is insured I wouldn't leave it there too long...

P.S., can you lend me a tenner?


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well yeah, of course, you could spend hours at the atm asking to see your balance, maybe print it too. But as only £85,000 out of your £150,000,000 is insured I wouldn't leave it there too long...
> 
> P.S., can you lend me a tenner?


If I win tomorrow, I’ll _give_ you £20. Can’t say fairer than that.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Well yeah, of course, you could spend hours at the atm asking to see your balance, maybe print it too. But as only £85,000 out of your £150,000,000 is insured I wouldn't leave it there too long...
> 
> P.S., can you lend me a tenner?


You've just reminded me of when my old Mum first got her atm card and went down to the bank machine to get out forty quid and, having read the instruction about entering in multiples of at least £5, promptly ordered up £55,555,555   

She had to go in to get her card back.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2021)

More 'success' from Brexit:



> Just under half of British companies that export goods have run into difficulties caused by the Brexit shift in trade terms with the European Union since the start of the year, a British Chambers of Commerce survey showed on Thursday.











						Nearly half of UK goods exporters see Brexit trade trouble, BCC says
					

Just under half of British companies that export goods have run into difficulties caused by the Brexit shift in trade terms with the European Union since the start of the year, a British Chambers of Commerce survey showed on Thursday.




					www.reuters.com


----------



## kabbes (Feb 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You've just reminded me of when my old Mum first got her atm card and went down to the bank machine to get out forty quid and, having read the instruction about entering in multiples of at least £5, promptly ordered up £55,555,555
> 
> She had to go in to get her card back.


I love that story because it says so much about the assumptions embedded into instructions taken for granted by the person who wrote them.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 11, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you win the Euromillions tomorrow that's just shy of £150m, you can't deposit that in your Nat West account (well, you could, but for the love of god please don't). You need somewhere that is secure for it to sit. The City provides a very secure environment for money, there will be no bonfire of regulations as that would make it less secure.


If I won the Euromillions tomorrow I have lots of nieces and nephews (as well as my own kids) I would give money to. It would be funny to just deposit a £million in their account without telling them first and seeing how they react.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> If I won the Euromillions tomorrow I have lots of nieces and nephews (as well as my own kids) I would give money to. It would be funny to just deposit a £million in their account without telling them first and seeing how they react.



You were always my favourite uncle  






Sorry Bees, bets must be hedged.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 11, 2021)

(((Eileen)))


----------



## teuchter (Feb 11, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> If I won the Euromillions tomorrow I have lots of nieces and nephews (as well as my own kids) I would give money to. It would be funny to just deposit a £million in their account without telling them first and seeing how they react.


They would all assume it was some kind of banking error and keep quiet about it. At the next family Christmas gathering they'd all arrive in fancy sports cars and there would be an odd vibe in the air.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> (((Eileen)))



Southerners eh?


----------



## extra dry (Feb 11, 2021)

good greif, a lot of tuna sandwiches, 50 ton enough for two rounds  to everyone in the uk 

has his career gone off the rails?


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2021)

Badgers said:


> (((Eileen)))



Perfect.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 11, 2021)

editor said:


> Perfect.


bit harsh


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2021)

ska invita said:


> bit harsh


I mean it perfectly sums up the clusterfuck of Brexit. People being sold this ludicrous glorious _Return Of The Empire_ dream where the blue passports are proudly held aloft, the NHS overflows with EU cash, Johnny Foreigners are kept at bay, and Britain holds it own with the world while - somehow - being free to carry on enjoying all those handy EU benefits that we've got used to.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 11, 2021)

editor said:


> I mean it perfectly sums up the clusterfuck of Brexit. People being sold this ludicrous glorious _Return Of The Empire_ dream where the blue passports are proudly held aloft, the NHS overflows with EU cash, Johnny Foreigners are kept at bay, and Britain holds it own with the world while - somehow - being free to carry on enjoying all those handy EU benefits that we've got used to.


It's a problem with the referendum system - asking one-line questions about something that has a far from one-line answer. Switzerland suffered a similar problem when it voted narrowly to end free movement with the EU. But voters weren't asked which other things they were prepared to give up in order to end free movement. Eventually it went back to another referendum, which voted to keep free movement after all. 

Now according to the logic of some, that was an affront to democracy, but is it democratic to dogmatically plough on regardless even after all kinds of negative consequences that weren't mentioned in the original vote have come to light?


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

I feel sorry for Eileen, a tiny bit. Nobody told her that her village might turn into a lorry park did they.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> I feel sorry for Eileen, a tiny bit. Nobody told her that her village might turn into a lorry park did they.


yeah me too, fuck that. id expect there were some kind of planning laws to stop this kind of thing from happening
sounds really out of order


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 11, 2021)

bimble said:


> I feel sorry for Eileen, a tiny bit. Nobody told her that her village might turn into a lorry park did they.


I feel sorry for people negatively affected by brexit whichever way they voted in the referendum. That's a political basic for me. They were offered the prospect of a free lunch of their choosing, but a different meal turned up and now they've been told they have to pay for it as well.


----------



## bimble (Feb 11, 2021)

Relations between leave & remain voters in that village must be a bit tense.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Southerners eh?


Well, yeah...Dover is quite South...but as ever with these things the negative externalities associated with the location of Kent's fifth border customs checkpoint will impact predominately upon folk already facing some deprivation. Dover ain't a rich place.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Feb 11, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I feel sorry for people negatively affected by brexit whichever way they voted in the referendum. That's a political basic for me. They were offered the prospect of a free lunch of their choosing, but a different meal turned up and now they've been told they have to pay for it as well.


The worst thing was not knowing what we were gonna get until the last minute, so being unable to prep for it. I'm in a Whatsapp group for my trade, for small businesses, it's wiped out everyones European export business, overnight - it's the unexpected charges. The shipping websites we use when booking shipments don't even tell us how much the fees are gonna be, because no one has edited it to include the new export codes, yet so it's been a guessing game, that sort of thing. I think some of us can sort things - for instance most of the businesses in my group manufacture in mainland Europe anyway, so its a case of  using an order fullfillment warehouse in the Eurozone for that business. But I've had to stop one part of my business, the prototyping in the UK, because I can't make it work, things take too long and cost too much. I paid a £140 shipping bill for two metres of fabric from Italy, which took me about 20 emails and a load of form filling in order to import! Bonkers! It would've been cheaper to fly there and get it myself. I've had to buy components in the UK (that I normally buy from Italy)  to complete orders that are late and the quality of them is dire. I'm working with a craftsman (used to be based in London) who moved back to Athens, because of Brexit! Most of the skilled people we have in the trade in the UK are immigrants. This situation has been impacted as much with Covid as with Brexit so I hope it'll improve as people set new systems up and adapt.  I'm lucky to have been able to replace this part of my business with pure design work, but not everyone can do that! I'm just very relieved we signed the Japan trade deal, that's basically salvaged some of our UK manufacturing, because Japan was the first market for this stuff, it was never Europe.   Like car manufacturers, they even invest in UK factories, there's one in Northampton making Goodyear Welted they spent millions setting it up.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 11, 2021)

I won't have a go at anyone for how they voted in the referendum five years ago, but anybody who supports what is happening now is an idiot. I've still yet to see any answer as to what justifies the fucking over of millions of people just trying to get by.


----------



## pinkmonkey (Feb 11, 2021)

I could care less how people voted, I can't bear the gloating. But we're here now dealing with it and it's a pain in the arse.


----------



## editor (Feb 11, 2021)

Well that SHOWED THEM! A real success story.



> The economic blow dealt by Brexit will be four times greater in the UK than the EU, according to the latest forecasts by Brussels.
> 
> A month into the new relationship, the European commission said the UK’s exit on the terms agreed by Boris Johnson’s government would generate a loss in gross domestic product (GDP) by the end of 2022 of about 2.25% in the UK compared with continued membership. In contrast, the hit for the EU is estimated to be about 0.5% over the same period.











						Brexit cost will be four times greater for UK than EU, Brussels forecasts
					

Departure to cost EU 0.5% of GDP but UK 2.25% by end 2022, according to first official estimate since deal was agreed




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well, yeah...Dover is quite South...but as ever with these things the negative externalities associated with the location of Kent's fifth border customs checkpoint will impact predominately upon folk already facing some deprivation. Dover ain't a rich place.
> 
> View attachment 253825


The tone of little anecdotes like this is always the same though isn’t it . Person votes leave , and because they didn’t see THAT coming, they can be laughed at .A lot of the more smug remainers , who have with the benefit of some of the highest quality hindsight for decades and saw everything coming ,like it best when  it’s a W/ class leaver .


----------



## kabbes (Feb 11, 2021)

editor said:


> Well that SHOWED THEM! A real success story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Although technically, that means it cost the EU more actual money than it did the UK


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 11, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Although technically, that means it cost the EU more actual money than it did the UK


Yeh. But if you actually read the article it says by the end of 2022, so technically it hasn't cost them that yet.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Well, yeah...Dover is quite South...but as ever with these things the negative externalities associated with the location of Kent's fifth border customs checkpoint will impact predominately upon folk already facing some deprivation. Dover ain't a rich place.
> 
> View attachment 253825



People tend to dismiss the south as metropolitan elite but even bits of London feature pretty fucking highly in the poverty rankings.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The tone of little anecdotes like this is always the same though isn’t it . Person votes leave , and because they didn’t see THAT coming, they can be laughed at .A lot of the more smug remainers , who have with the benefit of some of the highest quality hindsight for decades and saw everything coming ,like it best when  it’s a W/ class leaver .


That's often true; just didn't/don't get the "Southerners" bit. 
Maybe I'm just not reading it right?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's often true; just didn't/don't get the "Southerners" bit.
> Maybe I'm just not reading it right?


I was being ironic . Normally it’s northern leavers that get ridiculed .


----------



## brogdale (Feb 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I was being ironic . Normally it’s northern leavers that get ridiculed .


Me being slow.
Apols.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Me being slow.
> Apols.


No that’s fine mate . If in doubt just ask .


----------



## TopCat (Feb 11, 2021)

Philosophical’s creed gains favour.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> Stock trading should probably be filed with au pairs and live animal exports as nefarious things that brexit is cleaning from our island. Amsterdam was the finance capital of Europe before wasn't it, a few hundred years ago i think, swings & roundabouts.
> View attachment 253726



That headline is bunk. Firstly it only refers to EU trading, not international trading, and secondly it only refers to trading on the London Stock Exchange, ignoring that the vast majority of trades are done directly, off the exchanges.

It‘s just a result of EU regulators requiring more EU trades to be done In the EU on-book, and doesn’t really say anything at all about the relatives sizes of Amsterdam and London as financial centres.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Normally it’s northern leavers that get ridiculed .


Which conveniently forgets that more people in the South East region voted Leave than any other region.


----------



## bimble (Feb 12, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Which conveniently forgets that more people in the South East region voted Leave than any other region.


I didn’t know that. More people as in higher percentage of population ?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2021)

bimble said:


> I didn’t know that. More people as in higher percentage of population ?


No, in absolute number.

The breakdown by region shows that other regions had higher % Leave votes than SE:


----------



## Supine (Feb 12, 2021)

Spending a billion quid to replicate a database rather than agreeing to work with the EU. Good old brexit keeps on delivering.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 12, 2021)

There will be *British* chemicals!


----------



## contadino (Feb 12, 2021)

Supine said:


> Spending a billion quid to replicate a database rather than agreeing to work with the EU. Good old brexit keeps on delivering.




There goes 3 weeks of NHS windfall funds... Tsk!


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Feb 12, 2021)

Supine said:


> Spending a billion quid to replicate a database rather than agreeing to work with the EU. Good old brexit keeps on delivering.



Christ almighty.


----------



## editor (Feb 12, 2021)

Supine said:


> Spending a billion quid to replicate a database rather than agreeing to work with the EU. Good old brexit keeps on delivering.



I'm sure there'll be a Brexit supporter along soon to explain why this is, in fact, a success.


----------



## agricola (Feb 12, 2021)

Supine said:


> Spending a billion quid to replicate a database rather than agreeing to work with the EU. Good old brexit keeps on delivering.




Apparently the billion pound cost is mainly down to the work to rearrange the periodic table, which we apparently officially own.   They've had the finest minds trying to rearrange the elements so that new, patriotic, groups of elements can be formed in ways that spell out our greatness - Rubidium, Titanium, Silicon and Hydrogen for example will be at the top, in the biggest letters and awarded the most atoms.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 12, 2021)

Billion pound figure is probably just plucked out of the air. Someone in the cabinet must surely know someone with an Excel licence and a weekend free.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Feb 12, 2021)

agricola said:


> Apparently the billion pound cost is mainly down to the work to rearrange the periodic table, which we apparently officially own.   They've had the finest minds trying to rearrange the elements so that new, patriotic, groups of elements can be formed in ways that spell out our greatness.


----------



## Nine Bob Note (Feb 13, 2021)

Europium, srsly?
If yanks are allowed to rename Aluminium, then I insist we be allowed to call this particular element *Churchillium*


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 13, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Billion pound figure is probably just plucked out of the air. Someone in the cabinet must surely know someone with an Excel licence and a weekend free.



They also know that that person is a crook who will submit a quote of a billion quid for the work and get it without any tendering process.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Feb 13, 2021)

Badgers said:


> (((Eileen)))



"Free Country" eh ? I wonder if that could ever be articulated. Being free to live and work and trade freely with  27 countries sounds like whole lot of freedom to me.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 13, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> They also know that that person is a crook who will submit a quote of a billion quid for the work and get it without any tendering process.


Worth contacting them and suggesting we'll do the work for them in exchange for a £10,000 payment to the party as soon as we get first installment.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 13, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> "Free Country" eh ? I wonder if that could ever be articulated. Being free to live and work and trade freely with  27 countries sounds like whole lot of freedom to me.



50 years of propaganda have convinced people the EU is just Nazi Germany rebranded and that nobody else but the yanks (maybe) were involved in the war.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

More SUCCESS!



> Before Brexit, Fashion Enter, an e-commerce business with a pair of factories in Britain, could place an order for high-quality thread made in Germany and receive it in perhaps five days.
> A recent order took more than three weeks. It also incurred a handling charge of £44 pounds (more than $60) to cover the preparation of customs paperwork.
> Without the thread, the company had to postpone work on a crucial order — 10,000 protective gowns for frontline medical workers at the National Health Service.
> The thread supplier now imposes a minimum of £135 ($185) on orders from Britain, cognizant that a lower amount would require it to register to pay British value-added taxes, said Jenny Holloway, Fashion Enter’s chief executive officer.





> Before Brexit, a truck loaded with 25,000 liters of cream from a dairy plant in northern Wales could travel overnight and reach France by morning. Now, that same journey can take five days, complained Philip Langslow, director of County Milk Products.
> 
> The dairy must alert the authorities of the export at least 24 hours before departure, and must supply a weight — something it cannot know for sure until the tanker truck is loaded. If its weight differs from what is reported on the paperwork, the shipment may be rejected on arrival. Mr. Langslow’s company has cut its exports by half.
> 
> “Antigua is easier than Amsterdam,” he said of some export orders.











						53 Tons of Rotting Pork and Other Brexit Nightmares
					

With Britain out of the European Union, companies that trade with the continent are contending with expensive disruptions to their businesses and a plunge in exports.




					www.nytimes.com


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2021)

What was it that made leaving the customs union an important thing for the government when they were interpreting the referendum result? Why did that become a red line what’s the hoped-for benefit?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> What was it that made leaving the customs union an important thing for the government when they were interpreting the referendum result? Why did that become a red line what’s the hoped-for benefit?


Theresa May had been a remainer and wanted to win round the Brexit wing of her party by being Brexitier-than-thou


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

DJWrongspeed said:


> "Free Country" eh ? I wonder if that could ever be articulated. Being free to live and work and trade freely with  27 countries sounds like whole lot of freedom to me.


Except for the likes of Eileen and no doubt, millions of others the freedom' to live work, and trade freely with 27 countries' is to her abstract freedom, a bit like saying you have the freedom to be a billionaire.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Theresa May had been a remainer and wanted to win round the Brexit wing of her party by being Brexitier-than-thou


That’s it? There’s no real reason apart from the personal political hopes of mrs may before she went to work in a garden center instead?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Except for the likes of Eileen and no doubt, millions of others the freedom' to live work, and trade freely with 27 countries' is to her abstract freedom, a bit like saying you have the freedom to be a billionaire.


Oh bollocks. A few people have been coming out with this as if it were some impossible dream for the masses. There will be plenty of older people who have no intention of ever upping sticks to live and work in another country, but there are millions of young people of all socio-economic classes for whom it is absolutely an option, and that's reflected in the way young people voted.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s it? There’s no real reason apart from the personal political hopes of mrs may before she went to work in a garden center instead?



Pretty much, Brexit was always an attemtp to unite the slathering halves of the Conservative party and patch the slow but persistent leak towards UKIP


----------



## contadino (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> What was it that made leaving the customs union an important thing for the government when they were interpreting the referendum result? Why did that become a red line what’s the hoped-for benefit?



I think that many pro-brexit MPs believe(d) that leaving the customs union means that they are free from regulations (environment, employee, quality control, etc..) So buccaneering blighty would be free to flood the European market with cheap, unsafe tat.

Oddly, the EU aren't so keen on that, hence the wrangling before Xmas.

So now it's just us in the UK who get the benefit of unsafe, shonky products.


----------



## Supine (Feb 13, 2021)

Brexiteers now enjoy their political freedom by asking EU governments for permission to go on holiday. Brexit bonus.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s it? There’s no real reason apart from the personal political hopes of mrs may before she went to work in a garden center instead?


Yes, she was the one who decided on those red lines with pretty much no input and even less discussion.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh bollocks. A few people have been coming out with this as if it were some impossible dream for the masses. There will be plenty of older people who have no intention of ever upping sticks to live and work in another country, but there are millions of young people of all socio-economic classes for whom it is absolutely an option, and that's reflected in the way young people voted.


To put my bollocks into some perspective the UK had the smallest amount of emigrants than any other European state living in another country around the time of the referendum.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> That’s it? There’s no real reason apart from the personal political hopes of mrs may before she went to work in a garden center instead?


This has been pointed out many times in the past four years so it's disappointing it seems to be news to you


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To put my bollocks into some perspective the UK had the smallest amount of emigrants than any other European state living in another country around the time of the referendum.


Oh? Fewer than Luxembourg, Lithuania, Estonia or Latvia? I think I smell a steamy pile of ordure

E2A about 1.2m UK citizens live in Europe outside the UK which I suspect is rather higher than the number of swedes, Danes, Luxembourgers, Latvians, Lithuanians, Estonians, Maltese or indeed Cypriots who have moved to other countries in the eu


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

Or finns


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Except for the likes of Eileen and no doubt, millions of others the freedom' to live work, and trade freely with 27 countries' is to her abstract freedom, a bit like saying you have the freedom to be a billionaire.


What made it possible for you then, that thing that 'the likes of Eileen' would never dream of? Do you think she doesn't know anyone who wants to or has retired in Spain because only posh people do that?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 13, 2021)

I was talking to one of the organisers of Unsound a couple of weeks ago. He reckons they'd have found putting that on in Italy very difficult now with brexit. 

Elitist buggers, though, that Unsound lot. And everyone who went to it.


----------



## belboid (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> To put my bollocks into some perspective the UK had the smallest amount of emigrants than any other European state living in another country around the time of the referendum.


really?  This seems highly unlikely 

"The EU countries with the largest number of people living in other EU countries in 2010 were Romania (2.3 million), Poland (1.9 million), Italy (1.7 million), Germany (1.5 million) and the UK (1.4 million)."

I doubt that 22 countries overtook the UK in the following six years.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sure there'll be a Brexit supporter along soon to explain why this is, in fact, a success.


I wish you'd stop this. It's ridiculous. Loads of people on here voted to leave and virtually nobody will be "along soon to explain why this is a success" after you post yet another example of how the Tories are fucking everything up. You come across as the sort of person I used to know who'd be shitty to McDonald's workers because multinationals.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

Pickman's model


belboid said:


> really?  This seems highly unlikely
> 
> "The EU countries with the largest number of people living in other EU countries in 2010 were Romania (2.3 million), Poland (1.9 million), Italy (1.7 million), Germany (1.5 million) and the UK (1.4 million)."
> 
> I doubt that 22 countries overtook the UK in the following six years.



Perhaps things half-remembered but I did find this in my Brexit folder


----------



## belboid (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Except for the likes of Eileen and no doubt, millions of others the freedom' to live work, and trade freely with 27 countries' is to her abstract freedom, a bit like saying you have the freedom to be a billionaire.


really?  Maybe she had a decent job and fancied selling her house and going somewhere cheaper when she retired. And now that 'free movement' has been ended, there is a very clear effect upon her freedoms.  And that's before we get into her having cheaper goods and services available.   

You didn't really think that comment through.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> . You come across as the sort of person I used to know who'd be shitty to McDonald's workers because multinationals.


You come across as the sort of person who posts up really unpleasant and thoroughly dishonest personal slurs.  I hope you have the dignity to apologise.


----------



## belboid (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pickman's model
> 
> 
> Perhaps things half-remembered but I did find this in my Brexit folder
> ...


aah, proportion is quite different to amount. I must admit I'm not quite sure what that 25% figure for the UK means, it obviously isnt that 25% of Britons live overseas or that the UK population is 25% immigrant.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pickman's model
> 
> 
> Perhaps things half-remembered but I did find this in my Brexit folder
> ...


I see they forgot about the irish


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> aah, proportion is quite different to amount. I must admit I'm not quite sure what that 25% figure for the UK means, it obviously isnt that 25% of Britons live overseas or that the UK population is 25% immigrant.


It means that 25% of emigrants from the UK have emigrated to an EU country rather than, say Canada or Australia or New Zealand or Mongolia.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> aah, proportion is quite different to amount. I must admit I'm not quite sure what that 25% figure for the UK means, it obviously isnt that 25% of Britons live overseas or that the UK population is 25% immigrant.


I think it means that of the number of brits that go to live in other countries most of them go outside the EU. So absolutely not 'we have the fewest emigrants of anyone in europe'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> You come across as the sort of person who posts up really unpleasant and thoroughly dishonest personal slurs.  I hope you have the dignity to apologise.


If posters apologised every time they made a mistake or posted something someone else objected to it'd sound like nick clegg round here


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> aah, proportion is quite different to amount. I must admit I'm not quite sure what that 25% figure for the UK means, it obviously isnt that 25% of Britons live overseas or that the UK population is 25% immigrant.


as I said half remembered


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pickman's model
> 
> 
> Perhaps things half-remembered but I did find this in my Brexit folder
> ...


Yeh that chart's one for the guardian down pan thread


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> You come across as the sort of person who posts up really unpleasant and thoroughly dishonest personal slurs.  I hope you have the dignity to apologise.


Balls, I'm tired of your behaviour on Brexit.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

S☼I said:


> Balls, I'm tired of your behaviour on Brexit.


So that makes it OK for you to post up malicious shit about me abusing restaurant workers, does it? Pathetic.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> You come across as the sort of person who posts up really unpleasant and thoroughly dishonest personal slurs.  I hope you have the dignity to apologise.



I'm sorry ed, I appreciate lockdown and everything is proper shit, but this is utter nonsense and I routinely have read some of your posts last few times I've looked in, and I think you've really lost perspective to the point that you can't even see it - Steely is as far from that and you know it. Everybody is entitled to their takes, but you've gone down a bit of a weird liberal avenue the last few years seemingly looking to EU/Labour as somehow a top-down saviour. Buts its really been made worse with this incredibly lazy calling of urban left leavers - many of them anarchists, long-time anti-fascist/capitalists too - with 'brexiteers' just reflects badly on you as someone I've certainly always had respect and time for.

I have no beef with you whatsoever, but seriously, slow down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> So that makes it OK for you to post up malicious shit about me abusing restaurant workers, does it? Pathetic.


He did nothing of the sort

It's by no means complimentary. But that's not what he says.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> I'm sorry ed, I appreciate lockdown and everything is proper shit, but this is utter nonsense and I routinely have read some of your posts last few times I've looked in, and I think you've really lost perspective to the point that you can't even see it - Steely is as far from that and you know it. You've gone down a bit of a weird liberal avenue the last few years seemingly appealing l to 'top down' EU and Labour to 'protect us'. Made worse with incredibly lazy calling of left leavers - many of them anarchists, long-time anti-fascist/capitalists too - with 'brexiteers' just reflects badly on you as someone I've certainly always had respect and time for.
> 
> I have no beef with you whatsoever, but seriously, slow down.


I've just been described as the sort of person who verbally abuse McDonalds workers. Forgive me if I find that offensive. Strange that you seem to think this is acceptable behaviour.

You've no idea what my politics are, btw. They're certainly not what you've just projected in your post.


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> He did nothing of the sort


" _You come across as the sort of person I used to know_* who'd be shitty to McDonald's workers because multinationals*. "

You can butt out now.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> I've just been described as the sort of person who verbally abuse McDonalds workers. Forgive me if I find that offensive. Strange that you seem to think this is acceptable behaviour.
> 
> You've no idea what my politics are, btw. They're certainly now what you've just projected in your post.


He said you come across as the sort of person. Not you are the sort of person. I am sure you can tell the difference.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> " _You come across as the sort of person I used to know_* who'd be shitty to McDonald's workers because multinationals*. "
> 
> You can butt out now.


is this you posting as a poster or you posting as a mod?


----------



## editor (Feb 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> is this you posting as a poster or you posting as a mod?


Oh for fucks sake.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 13, 2021)

I agree that it's unfair to expect urban's anarchist and anti-capitalist types to have foreseen how things would turn out and they shouldn't be given hassle for getting it wrong. The tens of millions of people who did think it would go this way were just incredibly lucky in their guess.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh for fucks sake.


oh for fucks sake yourself. If you want to prove yer man's point you're doing a bloody good job of it. You make out he's accused you of being a cunt to mcd's workers. He hasn't. Go and do something else for a bit because you're not doing yourself any favours on this thread


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> What made it possible for you then, that thing that 'the likes of Eileen' would never dream of? Do you think she doesn't know anyone who wants to or has retired in Spain because only posh people do that?



What made it possible for me Bimble? 
Well to be honest I never really had any ambition or dream to live abroad aside from when  I was young and had a period of looking at the adverts in the magazines in the Sunday's papers for wooden houses overlooking lakes somewhere in America and thinking that would be great. Never did any good on languages, never had a skill or type of job ( aside from a  couple of years building work )  that would transfer abroad. Used to like going on holiday and as the years went by every now and again I'd say to the missus when we retire I'd love us to rent somewhere in Spain or Portugal for three months. That really was it tbh.

What made it possible was that my wife died within a year of being diagnosed with cancer tbh. The kids had left during the previous three years and I suppose someone dies who you are very close to it makes you think about your own mortality and what you might do with the rest of your life. So I decided that I didn't want to stay in the house, didn't want to do the same job, and wanted to do something completely different.  It was then that I thought why not go abroad and try living there for six months. .So I put a request for redundancy into the two year cycle at the Council,  put half my salary into an additional pension, sold the house at the end of the two years , took the redundancy and early pension and just went.   With hindsight, it was probably running away tbh. Hope that explains things.


----------



## bimble (Feb 13, 2021)

I'm sorry for your loss The39thStep. Sounds like a good choice you made. The idea that 'the likes of Eileen' would never dream of doing something similar though is just wrong.


----------



## Steel Icarus (Feb 13, 2021)

I apologize for the phrasing editor but not the sentiment. I could have chosen my words more carefully but it's very frustrating that on urban, which is one of the most politically aware, articulate and informed places on the internet the tedious trope of laying all the bullshit of Brexit at the feet of those who voted to leave for whatever reason is at so at odds with that aware, articulate and informed tone. 

I get you're fucked off with what Brexit means to and for you but I'm just asking you to align your sights to 2021.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> I'm sorry for your loss The39thStep. Sounds like a good choice you made. The idea that 'the likes of Eileen' would never dream of doing something similar though is just wrong.


Bimble  I didn't post my reply to get any sympathy but thank you for your kind thoughts.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 13, 2021)

bimble said:


> What was it that made leaving the customs union an important thing for the government when they were interpreting the referendum result? Why did that become a red line what’s the hoped-for benefit?


My understanding is this - it may be wrong:

Customs union means solid commitment to an alignment with EU standards - absolute level playing field.
You don't need to do a customs check if everyone has the same standards.
That remains the case now post Brexit for export to the EU - the standards must be met, though there are now tarifs, paperwork etc. to make sure no one is fiddling.

But that also includes what we in the UK IMPORT.

_"The customs union means that EU countries apply the same tariffs to imported goods from the rest of the world. Trade deals are negotiated by Brussels on behalf of the (currently) 28 members, although governments agree the mandate and approve the final deal. The EU has trade deals covering 69 countries, including Canada and South Korea, which the UK is struggling to roll over to bilateral agreements.

Proponents of an independent UK trade policy, such as the international trade secretary, Liam Fox, say Britain must forge its own deals if it is to take advantage of the world’s fast-growing economies. “Free to trade with the whole world” was one of the five promises of the Vote Leave manifesto of 2016."_


So by leaving the Customs Union the UK can do new trade deals and import things on different terms than when in the EU, including at a lower standard than previously.


----------



## andysays (Feb 13, 2021)

editor said:


> You come across as the sort of person who posts up really unpleasant and thoroughly dishonest personal slurs.  I hope you have the dignity to apologise.


And you're coming across as the sort of person who posts ridiculously stereotypical attacks on everyone ("Brexiteers", "ex-pats" etc, etc) who doesn't agree with you, then takes offense at comments which you claim mean something that they clearly don't.

You did it to me the other day, and now you've done it again.

I'd like to think you had the dignity to apologise for both, but it really doesn't look like you even realise that's what you're doing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> My understanding is this - it may be wrong:
> 
> Customs unions means solid commitment to an alignment with EU standards - absolute level playing field.
> You don't need to do a customs check if everyone has the same standards.
> ...


As can be seen by the level of our politicians who now operate on lower standards even than they did while we were in the eu


----------



## belboid (Feb 13, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I agree that it's unfair to expect urban's anarchist and anti-capitalist types to have foreseen how things would turn out and they shouldn't be given hassle for getting it wrong. The tens of millions of people who did think it would go this way were just incredibly lucky in their guess.


I think you'll find that most anti-capitalist types said it could be made to work, but under a tory government it would be implemented appallingly. And so it has proven.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> As can be seen by the level of our politicians who now operate on lower standards even than they did while we were in the eu


yes lower standards has many meanings in that sentence


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> I think you'll find that most anti-capitalist types said it could be made to work, but under a tory government it would be implemented appallingly. And so it has proven.


Fair comment that Belboid


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

Supine said:


> Brexiteers now enjoy their political freedom by asking EU governments for permission to go on holiday. Brexit bonus.


How does that work Supine ? Do Brexiteers have to contact someone in each of the EU states or has the EU come up with some sort of central clearing house for applications for holidays ?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> My understanding is this - it may be wrong:
> 
> Customs union means solid commitment to an alignment with EU standards - absolute level playing field.
> You don't need to do a customs check if everyone has the same standards.
> ...



It looked to me that a big reason for leave was ending free movement. The leave campaign sold themselves on buccaneering trade deals. Neither of those things were possible whilst in the single market or customs union. Theresa May, fuckwit that she is came out with red line nonsense that included leaving the customs union and single market. Forget the trade deal fantasies, the freedom of movement of goods and people is core to the EU, but the U.K. was also important to it, so much so that a way to have A customs union with the EU and some kind of access to the single market without freedom of movement could very much have been negotiated. Until May said THAT.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 13, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I was talking to one of the organisers of Unsound a couple of weeks ago. He reckons they'd have found putting that on in Italy very difficult now with brexit.
> 
> Elitist buggers, though, that Unsound lot. And everyone who went to it.


Unsound has not been delayed in its return by Brexit I don’t think. sus?


----------



## teuchter (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> I think you'll find that most anti-capitalist types said it could be made to work, but under a tory government it would be implemented appallingly. And so it has proven.


Like I say, the tens of millions of people who guessed it would probably end up being implemented under a Tory government were just remarkably lucky when they took that complete stab in the dark.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 13, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Like I say, the tens of millions of people who guessed it would probably end up being implemented under a Tory government were just remarkably lucky when they took that complete stab in the dark.



Mostly people have moved on from this shit teuchter. Especially as years ago it was noted that the options were Tory leave or Tory remain, the sarky sneering makes you look outdated, drag yourself in to 2021.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

belboid said:


> aah, proportion is quite different to amount. I must admit I'm not quite sure what that 25% figure for the UK means, it obviously isnt that 25% of Britons live overseas or that the UK population is 25% immigrant.


Yes, its a bit puzzling but I looked on the ONS site where they took the data from, and by way of explanation they say  "The EU has not been the most common destination for Brits choosing to emigrate; 33% of all British-born emigrants living outside the UK in 2017 lived in Australia or New Zealand, 28% lived in the US or Canada and 26% in the EU – of which 6% lived in Ireland. "


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 13, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Mostly people have moved on from this shit teuchter. Especially as years ago it was noted that the options were Tory leave or Tory remain, the sarky sneering makes you look outdated, drag yourself in to 2021.


He's finding it hard to drag himself from the sewer to the gutter


----------



## Supine (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> How does that work Supine ? Do Brexiteers have to contact someone in each of the EU states or has the EU come up with some sort of central clearing house for applications for holidays ?



Border controls


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

Supine said:


> Border controls



Oh my god that's terrible. Should push millions into the rejoin camp.


----------



## Supine (Feb 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Oh my god that's terrible. Should push millions into the rejoin camp.



I don't support rejoin and I don't really care if it influences anyone btw. I'm still angry that my freedoms have been removed though. Maybe one day I'll find out about a single benefit of leaving.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 13, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Oh bollocks. A few people have been coming out with this as if it were some impossible dream for the masses. There will be plenty of older people who have no intention of ever upping sticks to live and work in another country, but there are millions of young people of all socio-economic classes for whom it is absolutely an option, and that's reflected in the way young people voted.



I'm sure there are young people for whom it is absolutely an option, and in some cases no doubt a rite, and that may or may not have been reflected in the way they vote. I'm not sure however that there are millions and I'm not sure that people only vote from a position of self-interest .  What I can't fathom out though is why you aren't familiar with people who do feel it's an impossible dream to live abroad or work abroad or that they will trade with other countries and often whose main experience of Europe is a holiday. or football or the Eurovision Song Contest. For them, which most of my family and relations are like and a large chunk of my friends, aside from some  ex work people,  they feel they aren't going anywhere really not just in Europe but in life generally. So the freedom to do abc under the EU for them is abstract.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What I can't fathom out though is why you aren't familiar with people who do feel it's an impossible dream to live abroad or work abroad or that they will trade with other countries


Trade with other countries, no, few people would think of that. But try your luck somewhere in Europe or elsewhere in the world? Yes, I'm familiar with many people who have done that, and I'm not talking about rich or highly qualified people but people who take whatever job they can get wherever it is they go. People from all walks of life do it all the time.

Brexit doesn't make it impossible, of course. But it does make it harder. And that's not a good thing.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 14, 2021)

I live on a council estate in the Red Wall and if I think about people here who have lived and worked abroad there's a higher hitrate than stereotype would suggest.

I'm the end house on my terrace, a little posher than my neighbours, but I lived and worked in France for a year. The couple who lived here before us retired to Spain. He was a lorry driver, so freedom of movement was obviously a benefit to him in his work. Next door is a metalworker who lived and worked in Holland for ten years. Two doors down is an unemployed single mother who lived and worked in Australia for five years. Three doors down have never lived abroad. Four doors down I don't know that well. Five doors down are a Nigerian family with relatives still over there. Six doors down is half Indian, works in a supermarket and is saving to spend a year in India (she's been saying this for about 10 years, though, so who knows if it will ever happen).

Might be unrepresentative of the country as a whole, I don't know.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 14, 2021)

> British stores could be flooded with “dangerous” bacon and ham from the US, marketed under misleading labels, as the result of a transatlantic trade deal, says the author of a new book based on a decade of investigation into the food industry.
> 
> The meat has been cured with nitrites extracted from vegetables, a practice not permitted by the European Commission because of evidence that it increases the risk of bowel cancer. But it is allowed in the US, where the product is often labelled as “all natural”. The powerful US meat industry is likely to insist that the export of nitrite-cured meat is a condition of a post-Brexit UK-US trade deal, which the UK government is under intense pressure to delive







__





						UK-US Brexit trade deal ‘could fill supermarkets with cancer-risk bacon’ | Food safety | The Guardian
					

Fears of illness over nitrites used in US but currently banned in Britain and EU




					amp.theguardian.com


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

Badgers said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


How is his new book doing?


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

I missed this, in the middle of last month a majority of MPs voted to deny themselves (parliament) a say in the content of the country’s trade deals, so what food standards we get will be down to government ministers only.








						UK ministers gain power to allow lower-standard food imports
					

Trade bill vote rejects Lords amendment giving MPs greater scrutiny of trade deals




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> I missed this, in the middle of last month a majority of MPs voted to deny themselves (parliament) a say in the content of the country’s trade deals, so what food standards we get will be down to government ministers only.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



#takingbackcontrol


----------



## Winot (Feb 14, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Yes, she was the one who decided on those red lines with pretty much no input and even less discussion.



The interview with Philip Hammond published recently is jaw dropping on this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

Supine said:


> Border controls



Oh noes, not border controls!!! Cos before Brexit there were none...oh, that’s not right, before Brexit there were border controls and now there are too. Calamity.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

None of the top ten things the Uk exports to America are things you eat (apart from some medicines).
Being elbowed into consuming a whole range of foods with increased health risks seems a really shit exchange, for people who live here, in return for lower tariffs for the floggers of high tech machinery gemstones & fine art.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

Always found it strange that the US bans black pudding and haggis


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Just found this, really interesting new paper (free to download)








						Mind the Gap: Why Wealthy Voters Support Brexit
					

Does insurance alter voters' decisions to support the status-quo? Since wealth provides a cushion against financial risk, which in turn decreases risk-aversion,



					papers.ssrn.com
				






The maths  and equations are beyond me but the findings clear enough:
Says that the wealthier you are - most particularly property wealth - the more likely you were to vote leave.
Because your perception of the risk to yourself of any economic hit to the country as a whole was lowered due to that security.





This is a really different story to the one we've gotten used to, obviously just a part of the picture but an interesting part.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Always found it strange that the US bans black pudding and haggis



I think they have black pudding, don't they? They have what they call Blood Sausage (in the US I expect the name Black Pudding would be considered problematic for imaginable reasons...)

No idea on haggis but I bet it can be bought for Burns Night at least.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2021)

Even if supermarkets are "flooded" with crap US stuff it will still be people's choice whether to buy it or not


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Even if supermarkets are "flooded" with crap US stuff it will still be people's choice whether to buy it or not


It won’t be helpfully labelled ‘this is cheaper but it’s got health risks’ will it.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

I will still shop at Lidl and it will be fine.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 14, 2021)

We already have American puke-flavour 'chocolate' and crappy biscuits. Not long till the Twinkies and 5lb sacks of crisps arrive.

More seriously, food quality is a class issue and always has been. Since when did the poor ever get to eat as well as the rich, even as members of the EU?

Check the price, then check the ingredients, is how it goes for most people and no doubt always has. I'm not sure stuff from the US is going to be worse than what already gets sold as 'economy' and 'savers' range stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> We already have American puke-flavour 'chocolate' and crappy biscuits. Not long till the Twinkies and 5lb sacks of crisps arrive.
> 
> More seriously, food quality is a class issue and always has been. Since when did the poor ever get to eat as well as the rich, even as members of the EU?
> 
> Check the price, then check the ingredients, is how it goes for most people and no doubt always has. I'm not sure stuff from the US is going to be worse than what already gets sold as 'economy' and 'savers' range stuff.


Honestly, if I'd known that 5lb sacks of crisps were an outcome, I might even have voted.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Bit slow but just realised that if your healthcare system like in America is totally for-profit and handed over to the insurance sector there’s just not going to be very much motivation is there, to weigh up public health against the interests of the pig farming lobby or whatever.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

I am amazed that anyone is still alive in the US, all their food is apparently poisonous.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The danger realistically is the US might demand no source labelling and fill the contents of UK ready meals with all manner of shite.
But let’s not forget our food standards are pretty shit at the moment. MRM is not a brexit creation.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Bit slow but just realised that if your healthcare system like in America is totally for-profit and handed over to the insurance sector there’s just not going to be very much motivation is there, to weigh up public health against the interests of the pig farming lobby or whatever.


That's not true though - the US spends loads of public money on healthcare.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I am amazed that anyone is still alive in the US, all their food is apparently poisonous.


They do die 3 years earlier than we do but that doesn’t sound too bad if you get to have bacon with maple syrup for breakfast and nobody raises an eyebrow.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I am amazed that anyone is still alive in the US, all their food is apparently poisonous.



I'm pretty sure you can actually get intravenous cheese over there.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

teuchter said:


> That's not true though - the US spends loads of public money on healthcare.



As a percentage of money spent on junk food marketing though?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

The quality of the cheaper end of supermarket food in the US is abysmal. Far worse than here.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> The quality of the cheaper end of supermarket food in the US is abysmal. Far worse than here.


On the other hand, I found that the quality of fruit and veg in Trader Joe’s was distinctly better than any U.K. supermarket.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

If you have the money to pay for it you can eat well. But it costs.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> They do die 3 years earlier than we do but that doesn’t sound too bad if you get to have bacon with maple syrup for breakfast and nobody raises an eyebrow.


But their bacon is shit. Cooked to a crisp in a dehydrator and served mostly with a fake maple syrup made out of fructose. How much do we really need a trade deal with the US?

Apart from digital content and US themed foods, what have they got that we really need or that we won’t be able to source more locally?


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Even if supermarkets are "flooded" with crap US stuff it will still be people's choice whether to buy it or not


That's always been the argument used by those who want to get rid of cheapo crap. Forgetting that loads of people are skint and can't afford good quality food. Or that they don't care, which is not a choice to eat poor food, just lack of awareness.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

I have never kissed a Tory nor eaten a Twinkie.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

Food standards generally in the US, including agriculture standards are lower than they are here. Is anyone really arguing that lowering standards to US levels is anything other than an appalling idea?


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 14, 2021)

Most of the US dodgy ingredients will remain illegal and it won't make economic sense to import the US version, so we won't stuff like this changing:



Meat in processed/preserved products is one thing that might be sourced from the US, but I doubt there will any health implications because tinned frankfurters or whatever are already unhealthy so the fact their cows didn't see much grass isn't going to make any difference.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But their bacon is shit. Cooked to a crisp in a dehydrator and served mostly with a fake maple syrup made out of fructose. How much do we really need a trade deal with the US?
> 
> Apart from digital content and US themed foods, what have they got that we really need or that we won’t be able to source more locally?





Whenever I am in the States my turds are solid and massive, unlike the skittery crap that I mostly deposit over here. In fact my largest ever log was born in a shopping mall in Georgetown, 15” with a 6” cousin, in 2001. Imagine if camera phones had been around then...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Most of the US dodgy ingredients will remain illegal and it won't make economic sense to import the US version, so we won't stuff like this changing:
> 
> View attachment 254302View attachment 254303
> 
> Meat in processed/preserved products is one thing that might be sourced from the US, but I doubt there will any health implications because tinned frankfurters or whatever are already unhealthy so the fact their cows didn't see much grass isn't going to make any difference.


Not true. Grass fed beef is more nutritious. 

Seriously people are downplaying this?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have never kissed a Tory nor eaten a Twinkie.



Twinkies are very disappointing.  Not even entertainginly bad. Just shiny, greasy tubes of nothing.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> If you have the money to pay for it you can eat well. But it costs.


It was way, way cheaper than UK supermarkets too.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How much do we really need a trade deal with the US?
> 
> Apart from digital content and US themed foods, what have they got that we really need or that we won’t be able to source more locally?


Gold, airoplanes and ‘tree nuts’ apparently.





__





						United Kingdom
					

The United States and the United Kingdom launched trade negotiations on May 5, 2020.  Click here for the latest on these negotiations. In 2019, United Kingdom GDP was an estimated $2.7 trillion (current market exchange rates); real GDP was up by an estimated 1.4%; and the population was 67...




					ustr.gov


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Most of the US dodgy ingredients will remain illegal and it won't make economic sense to import the US version, so we won't stuff like this changing:
> 
> View attachment 254302View attachment 254303
> 
> Meat in processed/preserved products is one thing that might be sourced from the US, but I doubt there will any health implications because tinned frankfurters or whatever are already unhealthy so the fact their cows didn't see much grass isn't going to make any difference.


It’s more the medications given to US animals and subsequent residues in the meat.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Twinkies are very disappointing.  Not even entertainginly bad. Just shiny, greasy tubes of nothing.


I have heard all their chocolate is like that.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have heard all their chocolate is like that.



The chocolate is bizarrely awful. They must put diesel in it or something.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not true. Grass fed beef is more nutritious.
> 
> Seriously people are downplaying this?


There is this perception that there are (a) problems with nutrition in the US that (b) are derived from what is sold there.

In truth, there is a massive gamut of food sold in the US.  The problems with the nutrition are derived from social factors rather than food production.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

What do we import from the US now? I can’t think of a single made thing I have owned with made in USA on it. Not in a half century.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Not true. Grass fed beef is more nutritious.
> 
> Seriously people are downplaying this?



The reduced nutrition in beef used to make a grass-fed frankfurter is not going to make a difference to anyone's health.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Most of the US dodgy ingredients will remain illegal and it won't make economic sense to import the US version, so we won't stuff like this changing:
> 
> View attachment 254302View attachment 254303
> 
> Meat in processed/preserved products is one thing that might be sourced from the US, but I doubt there will any health implications because tinned frankfurters or whatever are already unhealthy so the fact their cows didn't see much grass isn't going to make any difference.


I note that graphic is from Food Babe so I'm going assume it's probably all nonsense.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It was way, way cheaper than UK supermarkets too.


Ok that's a thing I don't know about. Hopefully stuff is improving in the US.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The chocolate is bizarrely awful. They must put diesel in it or something.


Diesel would cost money. It will be a by product of the petrochemical industry that otherwise would cost a fortune to dump.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

Isn't all the US stuff still mostly made with High Fructose Corn Syrup?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Ok that's a thing I don't know about. Hopefully stuff is improving in the US.


They still had awful, terrible plastic cheese, mind.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Isn't all the US stuff still mostly made with High Fructose Corn Syrup?


What, their fruit and veg?


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s more the medications given to US animals and subsequent residues in the meat.



We're not going to be importing Texan 72-ounce steaks that people are going to eat every week. The quantities involved are not going to be sufficient for what the cows were given to make any difference to anyone.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> We already have American puke-flavour 'chocolate' and crappy biscuits. Not long till the Twinkies and 5lb sacks of crisps arrive.
> 
> More seriously, food quality is a class issue and always has been. Since when did the poor ever get to eat as well as the rich, even as members of the EU?
> 
> Check the price, then check the ingredients, is how it goes for most people and no doubt always has. I'm not sure stuff from the US is going to be worse than what already gets sold as 'economy' and 'savers' range stuff.


Very dangerous to bring the idea of class onto this website , no doubt we'll have examples of people on UC eating pheasant and pommegranite due to the EU  as if it were some impossible dream for the masses.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 14, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I note that graphic is from Food Babe so I'm going assume it's probably all nonsense.



Feel free to look up the ingredients yourself, it's not difficult.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> It won’t be helpfully labelled ‘this is cheaper but it’s got health risks’ will it.



I think people generally know that cheaper means poorer quality.



Kevbad the Bad said:


> That's always been the argument used by those who want to get rid of cheapo crap. Forgetting that loads of people are skint and can't afford good quality food. Or that they don't care, which is not a choice to eat poor food, just lack of awareness.



I think it's possible not to eat ultra processed shit without breaking the bank. Like you say it's a question of caring - and it's not going to go very well if we give the State the responsibility for raising awareness is it. We have to do it ourselves


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Gold, airoplanes and ‘tree nuts’ apparently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We can source gold elsewhere. Tree nuts? Are they like winnips?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

US chocolate is bogging, European biscuits are shite an’all.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

kabbes said:


> They still had awful, terrible plastic cheese, mind.


Do you know about the American socialist cheese mountain?
One of my favourite things I recently learnt about. I think it explains their cheese problem.








						Government cheese - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have heard all their chocolate is like that.


I do like those peanut butter Reese's


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What do we import from the US now? I can’t think of a single made thing I have owned with made in USA on it. Not in a half century.


Books. I have lots of books published and printed in america


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Very dangerous to bring the idea of class onto this website , no doubt we'll have examples of people on UC eating pheasant and pommegranite due to the EU  as if it were some impossible dream for the masses.


Of course this is a class issue among other things. We've had big discussions on here about things like food deserts. Doesn't mean lowering standards to US levels is anything other than a terrible idea.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you know about the American socialist cheese mountain?
> One of my favourite things I recently learnt about. I think it explains their cheese problem.
> 
> 
> ...


That’s fantastic.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Books. I have lots of books published and printed in america


Fair do’s so do I.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I do like those peanut butter Reese's


The long lasting peanut butter cup cake? I look at them and shudder.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Of course this is a class issue among other things. We've had big discussions on here about things like food deserts. Doesn't mean lowering standards to US levels is anything other than a terrible idea.


I expect to see Waitrose shoppers boycotting US imports


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have never kissed a Tory nor eaten a Twinkie.


Proud boasts both


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The long lasting peanut butter cup cake? I look at them and shudder.


Cant get enough of them, always stock up before I fly back here


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

I can get a whole fresh chicken in Asda for about a quid. I can’t see the US trying to compete in this market. 
Maybe they will force high quality crime fiction novels on us.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have never kissed a Tory nor eaten a Twinkie.



I have done both, but only from reckless youthful experimentation. Like those times I smoked crack.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Cant get enough of them, always stock up before I fly back here


I will help my local community by emptying the shelves in the local offie of this just wrong snack and sending them over to you. 

They will survive any Brexit related delay. Probably would survive the apocalypse.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 14, 2021)

Some of my favourite music is american btw.

A lot, now I think of it.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

I like  American Root Beer as well


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What do we import from the US now? I can’t think of a single made thing I have owned with made in USA on it. Not in a half century.


Also mulititools, I've a leatherman fuse I've had since 2005 and still going strong and a Gerber shard which is extremely useful and comes in handy most days


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Some of my favourite music is american btw.
> 
> A lot, now I think of it.


The British Northern Soul scene was entirely dependent on America imports


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I think it's possible not to eat ultra processed shit without breaking the bank. Like you say it's a question of caring - and it's not going to go very well if we give the State the responsibility for raising awareness is it. We have to do it ourselves


Doing it ourselves is not allowing a bunch of uncaring capitalists to make the decisions for us. There will always be those who don't care, but there's also those who can't choose (lack of education, learning difficulties, lack of awareness and experience). Plus, we all, as a society, have to deal with potential health consequences of bad diets. Capitalist exploiters aren't paying for that.


----------



## MickiQ (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I like  American Root Beer as well


I love American Root Beer as well, I discovered it on my first trip there and order it online these days since it is impossible to find in supermarkets


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I have never kissed a Tory nor eaten a Twinkie.


I once kissed a Tory's Twinkie.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

Kevbad the Bad said:


> I once kissed a Tory's Twinkie.


You will never get the taste out of your mouth.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I love American Root Beer as well, I discovered it on my first trip there and order it online these days since it is impossible to find in supermarkets


It’s not beer. Nor I suspect made of roots. Probably made from something they got chased out of Flint for attempting to dump.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s not beer. Nor I suspect made of roots. Probably made from something they got chased out of Flint for attempting to dump.


You can get alcoholic root beer


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> You can get alcoholic root beer
> View attachment 254307


I note it says “with the taste of spices”. 
I would wager no actual spices were involved bar the mention in the label.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

Just out of interest have any posters on here whilst visiting the States ever refused or avoided food being served there because of their food standards?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

Do they actually import Budweiser beer into the UK, the US one? 
Or is it made here, under licence?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I note it says “with the taste of spices”.
> I would wager no actual spices were involved bar the mention in the label.


I would hope not. Rootbeer used to be made out of some tree root, Sasperillo from bark of the same tree but they stopped using that years ago.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I would hope not. Rootbeer used to be made out of some tree root, Sasperillo from bark of the same tree but they stopped using that years ago.


Oh is it like Sarsaparilla? I would only have to mention it aloud here at home to provoke memories of East Street market and the man selling the drink.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How is his new book doing?


Or how about you comment on the content: 



> The meat has been cured with nitrites extracted from vegetables, a practice not permitted by the European Commission because of evidence that it increases the risk of bowel cancer. But it is allowed in the US, where the product is often labelled as “all natural”. The powerful US meat industry is likely to insist that the export of nitrite-cured meat is a condition of a post-Brexit UK-US trade deal, which the UK government is under intense pressure to deliver.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Do they actually import Budweiser beer into the UK, the US one?
> Or is it made here, under licence?


License I think.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Even if supermarkets are "flooded" with crap US stuff it will still be people's choice whether to buy it or not


If they can afford to turn up their nose at cheap food, of course.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The chocolate is bizarrely awful. They must put diesel in it or something.


Yep. Horrid stuff. Inedible for the most part.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Beer is on the list of both food imports & exports both ways between UK and US. Mad world.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> License I think.


Foul stuff. I’m glad I have managed to avoid drinking it for three decades.


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 14, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I think they have black pudding, don't they? They have what they call Blood Sausage (in the US I expect the name Black Pudding would be considered problematic for imaginable reasons...)
> 
> No idea on haggis but I bet it can be bought for Burns Night at least.


I think haggis is banned because under their food regs the content could be problematic, but not so under our current food regs.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Oh is it like Sarsaparilla? I would only have to mention it aloud here at home to provoke memories of East Street market and the man selling the drink.


----------



## fishfinger (Feb 14, 2021)

The reason that haggis is banned in USA, is that they are concerned about the possibility of TB in the sheep's lung.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Foul stuff. I’m glad I have managed to avoid drinking it for three decades.


When I first went to the  States I drank some of the worst beer I've ever had, mostly tinny fizz. However, there's some good stuff mainly brewed by small companies.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just out of interest have any posters on here whilst visiting the States ever refused or avoided food being served there because of their food standards?


What relevance does that have to anything? You make do with what's there. I lived in the states for a couple of years a long time ago. I ate all kinds of crap while I was there. 

I'd like to see standards raised everywhere. The whole point of universal standards is to raise quality for everyone.


----------



## Kevbad the Bad (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just out of interest have any posters on here whilst visiting the States ever refused or avoided food being served there because of their food standards?


I've always told people I'm vegetarian, (possibly eating fish as well). It tends to improve food quality, not foolproof of course.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What relevance does that have to anything? You make do with what's there. I lived in the states for a couple of years a long time ago. I ate all kinds of crap while I was there.
> 
> I'd like to see standards raised everywhere. The whole point of universal standards is to raise quality for everyone.


Sorry for asking questions. You didn't suffer any side effects, temporary or long lasting  though?


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry for asking questions. You didn't suffer any side effects, temporary or long lasting  though?


Do you think the UK's post-Brexit deal with the US is likely to lead to improved food standards and animal welfare, or is it irrelevant because, err,  littlebabyjesus didn't suffer any 'side effects' when he was in the US?


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Just out of interest have any posters on here whilst visiting the States ever refused or avoided food being served there because of their food standards?


Not food standards, but I found quite a lot of things I was served absolutely revolving, often inedible  and have not experienced that anywhere else around the world. The odd thing is that they seemed really proud of their wares. I hard the worst ever cooked breakfast I have ever experienced. The server's told me that it was going to beat the hell out of any euro breakfast I had ever eaten, "a proper good ol' American breakfast". the couple next to me reiterated this despite never having left the USA.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

A lot of the issues to do with food standards are hidden, in any case. Unless you do specific research into things, you're not going to know exactly what has gone into the food you're eating. And if you're on a budget or live in a food desert (of which there are many in the US - most of the South), of course, you don't have the luxury of shopping around. 

Hence the importance of universal standards.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Do you think the UK's post-Brexit deal with the US is likely to lead to improved food standards and animal welfare, or is it irrelevant because, err,  littlebabyjesus didn't suffer any 'side effects' when he was in the US?



Is there anyone claiming that a post-Brexit trade deal would do that? To be honest I even can't remember those two criteria being met when we joined the Common Market. As for  littlebabyjesus side effects, we don't know.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Sorry for asking questions. You didn't suffer any side effects, temporary or long lasting  though?


Do you seriously think that it would be a good thing if everyone lowered their food standards to please American meat exporters or is it just that the UK should do so and stop whinging about it because we need a trade deal and they’re bigger than us.

I don’t understand the impulse to wave away every bit of fallout from the government’s implementation of brexit.

If it turns out that the nhs needing to buy the Americans’ massively more expensive drugs is part of the deal would that be totally fine too?




__





						Trump’s Plan For The NHS: Channel 4 Dispatches | Channel 4
					

The price the NHS pays for US medicines could soar under a trade deal with America after the UK leaves the European Union, according to an investigation by Dispatches.



					www.channel4.com


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

tbh the quality of the food I was eating was probably the least of my worries, healthwise, when I lived in the states. But that's another story, not relevant here.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


> Not food standards, but I found quite a lot of things I was served absolutely revolving, often inedible  and have not experienced that anywhere else around the world. The odd thing is that they seemed really proud of their wares. I hard the worst ever cooked breakfast I have ever experienced. The server's told me that it was going to beat the hell out of any euro breakfast I had ever eaten, "a proper good ol' American breakfast". the couple next to me reiterated this despite never having left the USA.


Don't mind the waffles/pancakes they do for breakfast.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Grits for breakfast, that was grim.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is there anyone claiming that a post-Brexit trade deal would do that? To be honest I even can't remember those two criteria being met when we joined the Common Market. As for  littlebabyjesus side effects, we don't know.


Amazing that you missed all the discussion and reporting on that.  There's been plenty of stories like this:









						It's not just chlorinated chicken: five foods a US trade deal could bring to the UK | Nick Dearden
					

The US is demanding a ‘science-based’ approach with disturbing consequences, says Nick Dearden, director of Global Justice Now




					www.theguardian.com
				












						MPs Voted Against Taking Control of British Food Standards Again
					

An amendment seeking Parliamentary oversight on future agricultural trade deals was voted down, by Parliament




					london.eater.com
				












						Basic food standards under threat from US trade deal - Which? News
					

Government backtracks on legal protection for safety and animal welfare




					www.which.co.uk
				








__





						Top 10 risks from a UK-US Trade Deal | Soil Association
					






					www.soilassociation.org
				












						Brexit trade deals: how UK food standards compare to the world - Which? News
					

How do food and farming standards in Australia, Canada, India, Japan and New Zealand differ to ours?




					www.which.co.uk
				








__





						DEFINE_ME
					





					www.thelancet.com
				




So what is the answer to my question?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you seriously think that it would be a good thing if everyone lowered their food standards to please American meat exporters or is it just that the UK should do so and stop whinging about it because we need a trade deal and they’re bigger than us.
> 
> I don’t understand the impulse to wave away every bit of fallout from the government’s implementation of brexit.
> 
> ...



It's not a case that everyone lowers their food standard though is it? The States are one of the largest exporters of chicken.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Twinkies are very disappointing.  Not even entertainginly bad. Just shiny, greasy tubes of nothing.











						Twinkie defense - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## stdP (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The chocolate is bizarrely awful. They must put diesel in it or something.



It's butyric acid - the same stuff as produced in rancid butter - that gives it it's own unique flavour. Incredibly enough, this is by design in order to cope with hotter climes in pre-refrigeration times:


> If you’ve ever tasted American milk chocolate, especially Hershey’s, and you’re used to British or European chocolate, you’ll probably recall it has a distinctive tangy flavour. This is because the milk in Hershey’s chocolate is treated with butyric acid to make it last longer. Unlike in Britain, where dairy farms are close to chocolate factories, in America the source of milk can be thousands of miles away. During the advent of chocolate’s popularity, the early 20th century, there were limited refrigeration options and slower transport systems than today. This posed a problem – how to keep the milk fresh? The solution back then was to allow the milk to deteriorate, or sour, in a safe way before transportation.



How the taste still remains popular there remains a mystery to me though.



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> European biscuits are shite an’all.



I'd have to contest this and say italian biscuits are superb. Indeed, I think much of the everyday italian baking and confectionery is superior to the - usually much better regarded - french equivalents.



fishfinger said:


> The reason that haggis is banned in USA, is that they are concerned about the possibility of TB in the sheep's lung.



Imports of all products containing sheep's lung from the UK to the US were banned in 1971, as you say due to a perceived risk of TB infection. Haggis is still made and sold within the US and Canada itself though.

As yet another Brexit Bonus™, export of haggis to the EU is now a minefield with many deliveries of haggis being rejected (along with chilled sausages).


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 14, 2021)

the histor of the US using cheap food dumping as a weapon of foreign policy is not something to be ignored


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> the histor of the US using cheap food dumping as a weapon of foreign policy is not something to be ignored


Tell us more


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Amazing that you missed all the discussion and reporting on that.  There's been plenty of stories like this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No I've read all that sort of stuff, its been posted up on here many times and I really don't have a problem with the idea of chlorinated chicken in itself.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> the histor of the US using cheap food dumping as a weapon of foreign policy is not something to be ignored


It's also a classic worked example of the power relations in trade deals. The weaker side becoming a rule-taker from the stronger side. Any idea that the UK can get itself better trade deals than the EU is just laughable really. It's fantasy land.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> No I've read all that sort of stuff, its been posted up on here many times and I really don't have a problem with the idea of chlorinated chicken in itself.


Do you understand the issue with chlorinated chicken? It's not that the chicken itself is unsafe, it is that the act of chlorination is deemed necessary due to lower standards further back in the chain. I'd really advise you to look into chicken farming in the US. It's a horror story for both the chickens and the humans working with them.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 14, 2021)

basic political economics. Yeltsin extracted emergency food aid from the US when he was under pressure during the early 90s & was pushed towards a big bang market econcomy with US assist following it. Plenty of examples of for eg Mexico putting thousands of small jobbing farmers out of work as they couldnt complete with US dumping- makes the recipient dependant on exported gear and more complaint for economic pressures from the states. Its soft power


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Weirdly fascinating stuff, the US and India recently had a chicken leg war, ended up in WTO court with India losing and being forced to eat the American legs.








						A chicken war shows all that’s wrong with India-US bilateral trade
					

Quartz India is a guide to the world’s fastest-growing major economy. We provide in-depth coverage of the country for India and its far-flung diaspora.




					qz.com


----------



## TopCat (Feb 14, 2021)

What are we looking to sell in US markets if we do a trade deal?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What are we looking to sell in US markets if we do a trade deal?


Chlorine


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 14, 2021)

do we produce helium ?  their stock of texas hydrocarbon helium is low low low.


----------



## agricola (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What are we looking to sell in US markets if we do a trade deal?



hopefully tea


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

agricola said:


> hopefully tea


We'll all be drinking Lipton's.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 14, 2021)

Pomposity and superciliousness


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 14, 2021)

Fair play


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

stdP said:


> It's butyric acid - the same stuff as produced in rancid butter - that gives it it's own unique flavour. Incredibly enough, this is by design in order to cope with hotter climes in pre-refrigeration times:
> 
> 
> How the taste still remains popular there remains a mystery to me though.
> ...



Italian bakeries are indeed superior to French bakeries. Italian cheese is better too.


----------



## agricola (Feb 14, 2021)

evil masterminds


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Tell us more



Rice in the caribbean is the example I'm familiar with.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Oh is it like Sarsaparilla? I would only have to mention it aloud here at home to provoke memories of East Street market and the man selling the drink.


----------



## agricola (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Italian bakeries are indeed superior to French bakeries. Italian cheese is better too.



I agree with you about the cheese, but bakeries are much more product dependent - for example, I'd hate to try an Italian bakery's version of a sausage roll or a pork pie.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 14, 2021)

agricola said:


> I agree with you about the cheese, but bakeries are much more product dependent - for example, I'd hate to try an Italian bakery's version of a sausage roll or a pork pie.



They have separate shops for cured meat items as a rule.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

Many countries produce excellent cheese, tbf. Not really better or worse, just different.

Except the US. US cheese is just shit.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Even if supermarkets are "flooded" with crap US stuff it will still be people's choice whether to buy it or not



Haven't they not labelled GM food as GM in the US because of the negative publicity? I seem to remember the GM companies said it was unfair competition if they had to label it GM. I've found a couple of articles that back that up, although others say they will have to be labelled 'bioengineered'. 

I can imagine them importing food into N. Ireland (for example) and relabelling it as from there.  Will presumably depend on the trade deal.


----------



## stdP (Feb 14, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Italian bakeries are indeed superior to French bakeries. Italian cheese is better too.



No argument here - what astonished me about italian cheeses were how so few of them had any names, I suspect because so many of them are just made in a glorified shed as a practical hobby (like much of the smaller scales of wine). Epithets like "Uncle So-and-So's Half-Sheep, Half-Goat Cheese" seemed to be very common for many of the ones you'll come across grazing through various towns.

Yet another Brexit Bonus™ was an italian friend having their (much delayed) christmas care package of cheese, biscuits, sausages and olive oil from the family smallholding having a huge customs charge slapped on it (more than it would have cost to buy all the items in it in an expensive deli apparently, so it wasn't paid).


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Do you understand the issue with chlorinated chicken? It's not that the chicken itself is unsafe, it is that the act of chlorination is deemed necessary due to lower standards further back in the chain. I'd really advise you to look into chicken farming in the US. It's a horror story for both the chickens and the humans working with them.




You have that arse about face. Chlorinated chicken was banned in the EU because it was thought that as chlorine is so good at killing the bugs in chicken it could lead those in chicken killing/plucking places to be more lax with hygiene standards. The EU still permits chlorinated salad and so on.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What are we looking to sell in US markets if we do a trade deal?


Several posters on here?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What are we looking to sell in US markets if we do a trade deal?



The NHS


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You have that arse about face. Chlorinated chicken was banned in the EU because it was thought that as chlorine is so good at killing the bugs in chicken it could lead those in chicken killing/plucking places to be more lax with hygiene standards. The EU still permits chlorinated salad and so on.


That's a rather nuanced distinction to make tbh. The point is the same - lower standards are enforced further back in the chain in the US due to chlorination.


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> No I've read all that sort of stuff, its been posted up on here many times and I really don't have a problem with the idea of chlorinated chicken in itself.


So you're absolutely OK with the lower animal welfare standards associated with chlorinated chicken?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That's a rather nuanced distinction to make tbh. The point is the same - lower standards are enforced further back in the chain in the US due to chlorination.




It's not really nuanced at all, the hard fact is that the EU banned it in case it led to lower standards, whereas you state it is used because of lower standards, which is quite a different thing and just not true.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's not really nuanced at all, the hard fact is that the EU banned it in case it led to lower standards, whereas you state it is used because of lower standards, which is quite a different thing and just not true.


Here's the soil association. 



> High levels of hygiene and animal welfare promote a healthy farm environment, eliminating the need to wash chicken with chlorine.
> 
> The practice shouldn’t be necessary. Which raises the question - what lower standards in the production process does chlorine washing aim to patch over?
> 
> ...



What is chlorinated chicken?

If the standards are the same, why bother chlorine washing?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

editor said:


> So you're absolutely OK with the lower animal welfare standards associated with chlorinated chicken?


Again this has been discussed many times on here .


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

stdP said:


> I'd have to contest this and say italian biscuits are superb. Indeed, I think much of the everyday italian baking and confectionery is superior to the - usually much better regarded - french equivalents.



Dutch biscuits with cinnamon are lovely too, and the pindakoekjes (peanut biscuits).


----------



## editor (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Again this has been discussed many times on here .


Could you just answer the question please? It's really straightforward.

On a related note, it seems that Chlorinated Chicken isn't necessary safe anyway, regardless of the animal welfare standards: 



> *1. Is Chlorinated Chicken safe?*
> Research from Southampton University found that disease-causing bacteria like listeria and salmonella ‘remain active’ after chlorine washing. Chlorine washing just makes it impossible to detect the bacteria in the lab, giving the false impression that the bacteria have been killed when they haven’t.
> 
> This means chlorine washed chicken could still carry salmonella and other bacteria, which is a clear human health risk. In fact, rates of food poisoning have been recorded several times higher in the US than the UK; however, considering this information is notoriously difficult to monitor, it is impossible to say with certainty.
> ...


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 14, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Here's the soil association.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah? That's exactly what I said, chlorine is the best thing to kill the bugs, but it is feared that it could lead to lower standards, not that it does lead to lower standards. Very much like when at the school I was expelled from they didn't allow us to bring in snacks in case we littered the grounds, rather than punishing those who did litter they punished everyone in case someone did wrong.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

Side salads were amazing in some diners in the US I ate at - meal in themselves pretty well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah? That's exactly what I said, chlorine is the best thing to kill the bugs, but it is feared that it could lead to lower standards, not that it does lead to lower standards. Very much like when at the school I was expelled from they didn't allow us to bring in snacks in case we littered the grounds, rather than punishing those who did litter they punished everyone in case someone did wrong.


That's incredibly naive. Read up on chicken farming in the US. You're painfully wrong if you think allowing chlorinated chicken doesn't lower standards.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

The chlorine is used because the chickens in America live their lives stood on piles of shit and dead chickens isn’t it? Because there’s no laws about keeping your chickens clean.


----------



## agricola (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> The chlorine is used because the chickens in America live their lives stood on piles of shit and dead chickens isn’t it? Because there’s no laws about keeping your chickens clean.
> 
> View attachment 254340



TBF the number of times the "_main character gets food poisoning_" plotline comes up in US TV shows should have been a bit of a giveaway.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 14, 2021)

It requires bizarre mental gymnastics to deny that there are issues with this.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

Defending the environmental and health damage resulting from US corporate agri-business is where folk find themselves when they've chosen the brand of neoliberalism they prefer and have tied their colours to its mast.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

Here you go, there are differences, in that chicken farmers in America can pretty much do whatever they like, there are almost no enforced standards at all, keeping costs nice and low.
Great Valentine’s Day this. 




			https://www.britishpoultry.org.uk/identity-cms/wp-content/uploads/2018/05/2016-ADAS-EU-US-comparison.pdf


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

And no doubt has been pointed out but if American farmers can produce the cheaper meat because of their lower standards then British farmers will have to follow or go out of business.


----------



## bimble (Feb 14, 2021)

In response to a question about the current issues with trading with the EU, Mr Raab says that in ten years time we'll be exporting loads of stuff to the indo-pacific, so not to worry.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> In response to a question about the current issues with trading with the EU, Mr Raab says that in ten years time we'll be exporting loads of stuff to the indo-pacific, so not to worry.



Brexit BRICshit.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> In response to a question about the current issues with trading with the EU, Mr Raab says that in ten years time we'll be exporting loads of stuff to the indo-pacific, so not to worry.




Britain wondering through the desert to the promised sunlit uplands


----------



## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Feb 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Don't mind the waffles/pancakes they do for breakfast.


Good for you. I hate both those things american style.

I ordered food that was similar to the things I liked or that sounded like I might like them, or was willing to take a chance on. I expect a few misses and a few hits. Usually I am happy for everything inbetween because it is something different, which can be interesting in itself. I'm been to the US a few times but can only remember two meals that were good. Tenpanyaki in a Japanese restaurant and  a meal in a Cambodian restaurant.  It's not often I can't clear a plate, but it happened often, not because I was full, but because it was horrible.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 14, 2021)

editor said:


> If they can afford to turn up their nose at cheap food, of course.



Lentils will continue to be cheaper than chicken no matter how chlorinated the latter may be


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Britain wondering through the desert to the promised sunlit uplands


The desolate Tibetan plateau


----------



## philosophical (Feb 14, 2021)

Does Lindor ever fail to deliver?
Couldn't find any in America, or decent tea.


----------



## extra dry (Feb 14, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah? That's exactly what I said, chlorine is the best thing to kill the bugs, but it is feared that it could lead to lower standards, not that it does lead to lower standards. Very much like when at the school I was expelled from they didn't allow us to bring in snacks in case we littered the grounds, rather than punishing those who did litter they punished everyone in case someone did wrong.


That sounds like something they would do.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 14, 2021)

It’s not just the low standards in us food, it’s all the hormones they stuff the animals with. I’d be a veggie over there, that’s how bad it is.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It’s not just the low standards in us food, it’s all the hormones they stuff the animals with. I’d be a veggie over there, that’s how bad it is.


and fed antibiotics as standard as I recall, fucking silly behaviour


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 14, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> It’s not just the low standards in us food, it’s all the hormones they stuff the animals with. I’d be a veggie over there, that’s how bad it is.



Reading this it seems the EU ban was originally instituted due to public panic and had no scientific basis:





__





						Beef hormone controversy - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The desolate Tibetan plateau



Atacaman wonderland


----------



## Badgers (Feb 14, 2021)

Brexit turns Europe's biggest fish market in Peterhead into 'ghost town'
					

Food industry chiefs are furious as boats are tied up and exporters protest at Tory government.



					www.dailyrecord.co.uk


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Reading this it seems the EU ban was originally instituted due to public panic and had no scientific basis:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Not even to animal welfare, really?


----------



## extra dry (Feb 14, 2021)

Several of my friends have lost thousands due to the new export rules, Scottish fishing industry jobs, families. whole communities in some cases, will be ruined.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

By the way, whenever I see mockery for Brexit performance on here I never see it as reflecting on urbanites who voted to leave, always the way the tories have implemented it.


----------



## agricola (Feb 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> By the way, whenever I see mockery for Brexit performance on here I never see it as reflecting on urbanites who voted to leave, always the way the tories have implemented it.



Indeed, and of course they'd have messed remain up as well.


----------



## extra dry (Feb 14, 2021)

well 4 years to sort out the easiest 'deal', but turned out on one had done any real work, schedule changes, mobile checking apps, co-op deals in Europe, trade stamps etc. 

I can see the break up of Scotland and Wales by this London-centric based performance theater.  How are prices now on imported goods, will local food take over?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> By the way, whenever I see mockery for Brexit performance on here I never see it as reflecting on urbanites who voted to leave, always the way the tories have implemented it.



True for some


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> By the way, whenever I see mockery for Brexit performance on here I never see it as reflecting on urbanites who voted to leave, always the way the tories have implemented it.



The left leave vote is a marginal one anyway based on an opposition to super-state neoliberalism. I doubt it made any discernible difference to the result anywhere. Tories are in power whether remain or leave, and the failure is ultimately of the left to have offered an alternative... and any opportunity for Labour to have done so was fucked at the first by moderates and centrists. And Labour are providing fuck all alternative now either. And so here we are.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> The left leave vote is a marginal one anyway based on an opposition to super-state neoliberalism. I doubt it made any discernible difference to the result anywhere. Tories are in power whether remain or leave, and the failure is ultimately of the left to have offered an alternative... and any opportunity for Labour to have done so was fucked at the first by moderates and centrists. And Labour are providing fuck all alternative now either. And so here we are.



This was the most upsetting aspect of 2016 at the time, Corbyn came out guns blazing and an hour later the Labour party exploded and shat itself.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 14, 2021)

Interesting that Johnson appeared on US TV, CBS's Face the Nation today and non of the interview touched on anything to do with a UK/US trade deal. Lots of stuff on Covi and vaccines, a brief mention of China and the virus, Johnson want joint work with US/UK on climate change in particular 'hydrogen, putting a big bet on wind power', committed to the Anglo-Irish Agreement, the Peace Agreement, the Good Friday process, the Belfast Agreement, and the NI protocol. 
Wasn't asked about a trade agreement but normally Johnson doesn't let an opportunity slip to get his agenda in so I guess the chicken issue isn't anywhere near the table let alone  oven ready .


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

Unless they're working on it in the microwave, just don't want to alert anyone to it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 14, 2021)

extra dry said:


> well 4 years to sort out the easiest 'deal', but turned out on one had done any real work, schedule changes, mobile checking apps, co-op deals in Europe, trade stamps etc.
> 
> I can see the break up of Scotland and Wales by this London-centric based performance theater.  How are prices now on imported goods, will local food take over?


You're the first person I've seen here suggesting Wales and Scotland may fragment, everyone else has foreseen them leaving the uk


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 14, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> This was the most upsetting aspect of 2016 at the time, Corbyn came out guns blazing and an hour later the Labour party exploded and shat itself.


We could have had a glorious Lexit if they hadn’t stabbed him in the back.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> We could have had a glorious Lexit if they hadn’t stabbed him in the back.



Admittedly, I'm not a Labour supporter, but at some point you centrists are going to have to accept your part in all of this wider mess. Hows Keir 'I agree with Boris' Starmer working out for you?


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> We could have had a glorious Lexit if they hadn’t stabbed him in the back.



I’d settle for anything but 4 years of bun fights over trying to have another referendum and a coherent challenge to “full brexit fuck the Eu and remoaners” m

Other options to this brexit were available, many of them much softer and more guided and far less damaging


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

Like I voted Remain and I’ve said from the start lexit was a myth but hey ho.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 14, 2021)

stethoscope said:


> Admittedly, I'm not a Labour supporter, but at some point you centrists are going to have to accept your part in all of this wider mess. Hows Keir 'I agree with Boris' Starmer working out for you?


Like you said yourself the lexit thing was marginal, it had no significant following in the party or the wider country, so why go in that direction. 
The muddled mess is more down to Corbyns bad leadership - look also how the anti semitism thing was handled. He’s left Starmers hands tied, even when brexit is turning out bad.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> He’s left Starmers hands tied, even when brexit is turning out bad.



Oh aye, keep telling yourself


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> In response to a question about the current issues with trading with the EU, Mr Raab says that in ten years time we'll be exporting loads of stuff to the indo-pacific, so not to worry.




will be interesting to see what Plan D is if the UK doesnt get in on the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).









						‘Global Britain’: The UK in the Indo-Pacific
					

While its involvement is broadly welcomed in the region, the U.K. must first clarify what its Indo-Pacific presence will entail.



					thediplomat.com


----------



## stdP (Feb 14, 2021)

ska invita said:


> will be interesting to see what Plan D is if the UK doesnt get in on the Comprehensive and Progressive Agreement for Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP).



The backup plan is Scotland Having Independent Trade To Hibernia, England Being Extremely Dejected (SHITTHEBED).


----------



## two sheds (Feb 14, 2021)

Didn't the TPP incorporate that particularly nasty investor-state dispute settlement that was chased off a couple of years ago?



> Investor-state dispute settlement — an integral part of the *Trans*-*Pacific* Partnership trade deal — allows *companies* to sue entire countries for costing them money when laws or regulations change. *Cases* are decided by extrajudicial tribunals composed of three corporate lawyers.



The Big Problem With The Trans-Pacific Partnership's Super Court That We're Not Talking About


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 14, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Didn't the TPP incorporate those particularly nasty investor-state dispute settlement that was chased off a couple of years ago?
> 
> 
> 
> The Big Problem With The Trans-Pacific Partnership's Super Court That We're Not Talking About



It's a feature of most trade deals now, including the WTO deals. Alongside that marvelous"buying local requirements are an unfair advantage and harm business"









						WTO Appellate Body Report: India – Solar Cells | White & Case LLP
					

SUMMARY: Decision: The WTO Appellate Body has affirmed that local content requirements maintained by India for solar cells and modules violate India's obligations under the General Agreement on Tariffs and Trade (GATT) 1994 and the WTO Agreement on Trade-Related Investment Measures (TRIMs). This...




					www.whitecase.com
				



.


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2021)

They’re already talking about the Uk agreeing to EU’s food safety & animal welfare standards, to make some of the problems of being so gloriously independent go away. That was quick.









						Deal for common EU-UK food safety standards ‘on the table,’ Šefčovič says
					

EU Commission Vice President Maroš Šefčovič says this would help ease post-Brexit trade complications.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 15, 2021)

Perhaps we should be keeping a list of _the things they had to go back and change_ from the brexit agreement. 

I suspect it will turn out to be a rather long list.


----------



## extra dry (Feb 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're the first person I've seen here suggesting Wales and Scotland may fragment, everyone else has foreseen them leaving the uk


I also thought my flat was haunted, turned out to be the pipes, so there is that


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> They’re already talking about the Uk agreeing to EU’s food safety & animal welfare standards, to make some of the problems of being so gloriously independent go away. That was quick.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If it eases some of the problems all well and good imo .


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> He’s left Starmers hands tied, even when brexit is turning out bad.



Mental.

Anyway, here's a question. Why don't UK firms that need to export into the EU simply set up branch offices in Belfast, and do it from there?


----------



## Raheem (Feb 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Anyway, here's a question. Why don't UK firms that need to export into the EU simply set up branch offices in Belfast, and do it from there?


Educated guess: Something being exported typically starts its journey in a factory, farm or similar, rather than in a branch office.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Mental.
> 
> Anyway, here's a question. Why don't UK firms that need to export into the EU simply set up branch offices in Belfast, and do it from there?


Mental as in the situation or me?

A lot of companies can't afford to do that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> Like you said yourself the lexit thing was marginal, it had no significant following in the party or the wider country, so why go in that direction.
> The muddled mess is more down to Corbyns bad leadership - look also how the anti semitism thing was handled. He’s left Starmers hands tied, even when brexit is turning out bad.


oh right, it's all auld corbo's fault, it's never the fault of the right wing shits who spent the entirety of his leadership undermining him and briefing against him. and this doesn't really speak to sks's ability to lead if when corbo's been without the whip for months sks somehow still got his hands tied.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Educated guess: Something being exported typically starts its journey in a factory, farm or similar, rather than in a branch office.


Well, that's like the story of the accountant who, when asked what 2 + 2 adds up to, asks the client "what do you need it to add up to".

sleaterkinney - yes, I mean mental as in you. Would it be that expensive to have a PO box in Beal Feirste?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Feb 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Well, that's like the story of the accountant who, when asked what 2 + 2 adds up to, asks the client "what do you need it to add up to".
> 
> sleaterkinney - yes, I mean mental as in you. Would it be that expensive to have a PO box in Beal Feirste?


There's a lot more to it than that, accounts, the legal side etc.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2021)

Idris2002 said:


> Mental.
> 
> Anyway, here's a question. Why don't UK firms that need to export into the EU simply set up branch offices in Belfast, and do it from there?


The NI trade situation is hardly stable either. I imagine Brexit is making all of the UK a risky option for foreign businesses.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 15, 2021)

Even with an office in Belfast thats not going to help you if your goods are made in Scunthorpe or your fish landed in Fife.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 15, 2021)

If you get yourself a PO box in Amsterdam, you can smoke dope right in front of the police and they can't touch you.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 15, 2021)

Entering the world of global foodstuff trading and not being able to meet a target partners minimum standards is a pretty wank idea tbf


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> Entering the world of global foodstuff trading and not being able to meet a target partners minimum standards is a pretty wank idea tbf


Doesn’t sound like a great plan, practically. But bendy bananas & Brussels beurocrats deciding what you can and can’t eat was a part of the problem with the eu for some people, including Johnson back when he made his living writing articles about that sort of crap.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 15, 2021)

Department for International Trade but not with the EU please leave us alone



"Don't ask us about Mrs Cake, dogs with orange eyebrows or the weather"


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2021)

What’s the point of asking the questions if you know with absolutely certainty that the people you’re asking haven’t got any answers.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> What’s the point of asking the questions if you know with absolutely certainty that the people you’re asking haven’t got any answers.


How am I supposed to know?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Doesn’t sound like a great plan, practically. But bendy bananas & Brussels beurocrats deciding what you can and can’t eat was a part of the problem with the eu for some people, including Johnson back when he made his living writing articles about that sort of crap.


articles written by johnson not worth the paper they're printed on


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> What’s the point of asking the questions if you know with absolutely certainty that the people you’re asking haven’t got any answers.


As an opposition politician, those are the only questions you ever want to ask.


----------



## bimble (Feb 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> articles written by johnson not worth the paper they're printed on


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 254561


as any marxist will tell you, what people are paid for their work and the value of their work are two completely different things


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, I thought so.
> 
> And despite the fact I owe _no explanation at all_, let me add the last time I bought new electronic equipment was in 2006 and it was an applemac powerbook. Since then I've made a point of only buying second-hand gear (including laptops) and encouraging every musician / producer / dj I know to do the same. Last brand new instrument I bought was a Lakewood guitar hand-made (they claim at least) from sustainable forest wood.
> 
> So 'righteous', maybe - even 'self-righteous' - but 'hypocrite', no. I get that you're angry and lashing out but I think you're better than this.



Sometimes Thomann & similar sites ARE not only A cheap source of _materiel_, but due to their buying power, the ONLY affordable source. 
I want a pair of 10" Celestion speakers for a guitar amp cab. They would have been £48 a piece incl of VAT from Thomann pre-Brexit. Cheapest supplier I can find in dear old Blighty is £74 a piece. 
I make a point of buying 2nd-hand where I can (a lot of my music kit is bought used), or home-made where possible, but some stuff needs to be bought new, & people/ordinary consumers shouldn't be punished financially when new kit is necessary.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2021)

mauvais said:


> If I'm tired of my wallpaper and I burn down my house, I imagine I'll experience some fleeting euphoria as it goes, but I'll struggle to file it in the 'win' column.


Unless it leads you to a new & lucrative career as an arsonist, obviously.


----------



## stdP (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> View attachment 254561



Is that chicken feed rated to EU standards or is it pumped full of antibiotics and coming with a free chlorine bath?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> there are other sources of secondhand gear than simply people casting off after upgrading. people die, their gear is sold. people downsize, their gear is sold. people lose interest, their gear is sold


People's gear is nicked, their gear is sold. Look in the window of any branch of CrackConverters.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> People's gear is nicked, their gear is sold. Look in the window of any branch of CrackConverters.


good point well made.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 15, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Sometimes Thomann & similar sites ARE not only A cheap source of _materiel_, but due to their buying power, the ONLY affordable source.
> I want a pair of 10" Celestion speakers for a guitar amp cab. They would have been £48 a piece incl of VAT from Thomann pre-Brexit. Cheapest supplier I can find in dear old Blighty is £74 a piece.
> I make a point of buying 2nd-hand where I can (a lot of my music kit is bought used), or home-made where possible, but some stuff needs to be bought new, & people/ordinary consumers shouldn't be punished financially when new kit is necessary.



Yes, but..

I don't equate having to pay more for something with _punishment_. Most things really can be sourced used .. but Celestion 10" speakers are listed as £38 each at Gear4Music and I found them on ebay for £45 just now (+£7 postage)

I may be looking for the wrong thing though.

And I do get the annoyance, but honestly, some tech is simply underpriced, given the actual costs (including fairly-waged labour) of making them, and maybe they should cost more anyway. We in the west have been spoiled for too long with unrealistically-low prices.


----------



## editor (Feb 15, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Yes, but..
> 
> I don't equate having to pay more for something with _punishment_. Most things really can be sourced used .. but Celestion 10" speakers are listed as £38 each at Gear4Music and I found them on ebay for £45 just now (+£7 postage)
> 
> ...


How does buying the_ same product_ from a cheaper European warehouse source make any difference here?


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 15, 2021)

I was responding to ViolentPanda and I'm not keen to get into a discussion about anything brexit-related with you editor.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2021)

bimble said:


> Grits for breakfast, that was grim.


Cheesy grits are very nice.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 15, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Many countries produce excellent cheese, tbf. Not really better or worse, just different.
> 
> Except the US. US cheese is just shit.



The stuff in the supermarkets is. Go somewhere like Minnesota or Wisconsin, & there's some wonderful cheese to be found. They take dairy produce very seriously.


----------



## Idris2002 (Feb 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If you get yourself a PO box in Amsterdam, you can smoke dope right in front of the police and they can't touch you.


And I don't mean no paper cup, I mean a _glass _of beer.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 16, 2021)

CWS on form here:


----------



## bimble (Feb 16, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Cheesy grits are very nice.


You probably like salty watery porridge too.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

yum


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Fuck me, so now we have coats from Canada and widgets from India both attracting duty and this somehow down to Brexit.



Regarding the coat from Canada. Yes the duty is clearly due to Brexit. Both the courier and the supplier are explicitly saying both the delays and the import charges are due to Brexit and with the supply chain involving shipment via Frankfurt and Cologne there is a plausible reason for it to be related to Brexit.

Why do you not believe this?   Why do you think being charged import duty on a coat is normal. It is not and _eventually _the supplier Arcteryx did actually refund the import duties.  Why would they do that if its just_ normal?_

I suppose the next thing is that you will have to accept that you were wrong it is due to Brexit but then go on to just echo the government's line that it is just "teething troubles".


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Regarding the coat from Canada. Yes the duty is clearly due to Brexit. Both the courier and the supplier are explicitly saying both the delays and the import charges are due to Brexit and with the supply chain involving shipment via Frankfurt and Cologne there is a plausible reason for it to be related to Brexit.
> 
> Why do you not believe this?   Why do you think being charged import duty on a coat is normal. It is not and _eventually _the supplier Arcteryx did actually refund the import duties.  Why would they do that if its just_ normal?_
> 
> I suppose the next thing is that you will have to accept that you were wrong it is due to Brexit but then go on to just echo the government's line that it is just "teething troubles".



I do not believe it as I arrange this shit all day long, it is a large part of what I have done for a living for the past 32 years and that isn’t what happens, so either you are being lied to or you have misunderstood. The delay was almost certainly down to Brexit, but the import duty is cos you are importing a coat from Canada.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Why do you think being charged import duty on a coat is normal. It is not











						Help! being asked to pay £100 customs duty and import VAT on my own effing jacket
					

You may remember I posted up the tale of how I left my jacket in the US . Happily I got a friend to post it back but now the fucking wankers at HRMC want me to hand over £33.85 in customs duty, £63.18 in Import VAT plus a 'clearance fee' of £12 before Parcelforce will hand it over.  Obviously...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I do not believe it as I arrange this shit all day long, it is a large part of what I have done for a living for the past 32 years and that isn’t what happens, so either you are being lied to or you have misunderstood. The delay was almost certainly down to Brexit, but the import duty is cos you are importing a coat from Canada.



So why the refund then?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> So why the refund then?



No idea. Did they refund the U.K. duty? Or some shipping costs? It really isn’t a pro or anti Brexit position, if you import a coat from Canada then duty is due.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

They refunded the "government charges" and the "brokerage fees". Arcteryx have confirmed that the price you pay on the website is the final price.  So they eventually refunded me the Brexit-related charges.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Help! being asked to pay £100 customs duty and import VAT on my own effing jacket
> 
> 
> You may remember I posted up the tale of how I left my jacket in the US . Happily I got a friend to post it back but now the fucking wankers at HRMC want me to hand over £33.85 in customs duty, £63.18 in Import VAT plus a 'clearance fee' of £12 before Parcelforce will hand it over.  Obviously...
> ...



That link is irrelevant to my case.  That's about a friend posting a coat which is very different from a company sending something which is advertised on the website as having free shipping and they also confim on the telephone should attract no additional add-on fees.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> They refunded the "government charges" and the "brokerage fees". Arcteryx have confirmed that the price you pay on the website is the final price.  So they eventually refunded me the Brexit-related charges.



Care to post up some paperwork and we’ll get to the bottom of it?

What I can tell you is that if you import in to the U.K. then duty and often VAT is due. It doesn’t matter where the goods are routed via as the transit is a customs bonded area. That is just fact, everything else you have posted sounds like a confusion has taken place, possibly with Arcteryx if they claim what you pay on the website is the final price. Whack up the docs and I’ll go through them for you tomorrow at work.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> That link is irrelevant to my case.  That's about a friend posting a coat which is very different from a company sending something which is advertised on the website as having free shipping and they also confim on the telephone should attract no additional add-on fees.



It is not irrelevant to you stating as fact that import duty on coats is abnormal, it is not. Whack up your paper trail and I’ll get to the bottom of it for you.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Care to post up some paperwork and we’ll get to the bottom of it?
> 
> What I can tell you is that if you import in to the U.K. then duty and often VAT is due. It doesn’t matter where the goods are routed via as the transit is a customs bonded area. That is just fact, everything else you have posted sounds like a confusion has taken place, possibly with Arcteryx if they claim what you pay on the website is the final price. Whack up the docs and I’ll go through them for you tomorrow at work.



It was a bog standard online transaction with limited paperwork I already posted pretty much everything I had upstream in this thread. I am not the only one facing this issue. See this thread.



It seems to me obvious that if there a spate of things being delayed in customs because of Brexit and people are having to pay charges of one sort and another before they can get delivery. It is all Brexit related.  I can accept that there may be a layer of confusion/"teething problems" contributing to this, but don't tell me that this is not a Brexit-related issue.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 16, 2021)

Import duties on imports from Canada are not new and are not brexit related.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

OK, you choose to believe what you want to believe, you clearly want to live in this alternate reality where Brexit somehow affects imports to the U.K. from outside of the EU.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

To think that import charges are not normal in this circumstance  seems a fair enough interpretation of this email. "The amount you pay at the confirmation screen will be the total amount with no hidden or unexplained charges."


----------



## TopCat (Feb 16, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> To think that import charges are not normal in this circumstance  seems a fair enough interpretation of this email. "The amount you pay at the confirmation screen will be the total amount with no hidden or unexplained charges."
> 
> View attachment 254737


That company have led you up the garden path.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

They’ve fucked up.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Sorry, not really followed this but if they're dispatched from the warehouse in Germany wouldn't you expect there to be EU-related charges now?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

According to that letter you are importing the coat from Germany and not from Canada and being shipped via Germany as you led us to believe.

So all this fuss is about the duty/VAT importing from the EU, that is now a thing, seems they have said it isn’t and gave you the duty/VAT back. What should happen is they don’t charge you the German VAT but you pay the courier U.K. VAT and duty. Exactly the same as importing from anywhere else that you are not in a customs union with.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> That company have led you up the garden path.


Socially distanced I hope


----------



## two sheds (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> According to that letter you are importing the coat from Germany and not from Canada and being shipped via Germany as you led us to believe.



That's the same as what Toblerone said, surely. It's been shipped via a warehouse in Germany which means the coat is being imported from Germany


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> That's the same as what Toblerone said, surely. It's been shipped via a warehouse in Germany which means the coat is being imported from Germany



No, it was shipped _from_ a warehouse in Germany, which is a very different thing than _via._


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Sorry, not really followed this but if they're dispatched from the warehouse in Germany wouldn't you expect there to be EU-related charges now?



No where on the website was there any mention of it being shipped from the EU.  In any case I thought the Brexit deal was supposed to be tariff-free for goods.  As regards my coat, its all a bit of a mess and while not understanding every twist and turn of what happened, it seems very likely that it was Brexit-related. I'm relatively happy now that I've eventually got my coat and I've eventually got a refund on all of the import and shipping fees.


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, it was shipped _from_ a warehouse in Germany, which is a very different thing than _via._



The distribution route of the coat was completely opaque to me when I bought the coat. The Canadian website talked about Free shipping to various countries nowhere did it mention where it was being shipped from.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 16, 2021)

It _used_ to be a sensible thing for companies outside the EU to ship orders to EU customers from within the EU. Clearly that is not the case any more, but it will always take a while for supply chains to adjust.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 16, 2021)

kabbes please tell me where, on the other thread (now closed)  I called Brexiteers stupid.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 16, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It _used_ to be a sensible thing for companies outside the EU to ship orders to EU customers from within the EU. Clearly that is not the case any more, but it will always take a while for supply chains to adjust.


it still is
but brexit
not in the EU anymore around here these days


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 16, 2021)

!Do'h!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 16, 2021)

Maggot said:


> kabbes please tell me where, on the other thread (now closed)  I called Brexiteers stupid.



Did you launch that thread in good faith?


----------



## Maggot (Feb 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Did you launch that thread in good faith?


Yes, and it started quite well.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 16, 2021)

Maggot said:
			
		

> Can some of Urban's posters give us the benefits of Brexit? I'm struggling to see any.
> 
> Preferably tangible ones, not vague ideological ones.






			
				kabbes said:
			
		

> The question starting this thread has not been asked in good faith with an open mind. In fact, it’s passive-aggressive from post one. So it has no chance of producing anything constructive at all and is nothing but a call-out thread, which is against the rules.






			
				kabbes said:
			
		

> Your point was that Brexiters are stupid. So once again, that’s what is being discussed



I'm starting to think that he must be referring to another post, maybe an imaginary one. Cos he certainly doesn't seem to be referring to the OP.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2021)

I was also confused by kabbes labelling this as "middle class neoliberal conceptualisation of “benefit”"









						Benefits of Brexit
					

If only the remain campaign had said that the EU was "a bit like Groupon".  I don't know what that is, I'm afraid.   The ironic thing here is the Remainer sneering about promises on the side of a bus which are supposed to have tricked those stupid enough to fall for them into voting Leave...




					www.urban75.net
				




With the proviso that government bills often don't turn out how they promise, that seems like it would be a real, tangible future benefit to everyone - exactly what the thread was asking for.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> kabbes please tell me where, on the other thread (now closed)  I called Brexiteers stupid.


By starting a thread saying, at this point in time and in this context, “GO ON THEN, where are the advantages, THERE AREN’T ANY, and I don’t mean stupid “ideological” ones, I want REAL ones.”  There’s contempt dripping through that entire challenge.

You don’t actually have to use the word “stupid” in order to call somebody stupid.  Language is infinitely more subtle than that.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I was also confused by kabbes labelling this as "middle class neoliberal conceptualisation of “benefit”"


The idea that the value of something is what an individual obtains financially from it, with other cultural values being quashed as irrelevant.


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2021)

So, does the closure of the "Benefits of Brexit" thread mean that there are officially *no* benefits to Brexit, the the Remainers have won the argument and we can all move on to arguing about something else now?


----------



## Maggot (Feb 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> By stating a thread saying, at this point in time and in this context, “GO ON THEN, where are the advantages, THERE AREN’T ANY, and I don’t mean stupid “ideological” ones, I want REAL ones.”  There’s contempt dripping through that entire challenge.
> 
> You don’t actually have to use the word “stupid” in order to call somebody stupid.  Language is infinitely more subtle than that.


I genuinely wanted to know, and posters like WouldBe and ska invita gave some good examples before your ridiculous misinterpretation of my post.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> I genuinely wanted to know, and posters like WouldBe and ska invita gave some good examples before your ridiculous misinterpretation of my post.


I don’t believe you.  I don’t believe you genuinely thought that two months into Brexit somebody was going to provide you with The Answer to why Brexit had already provided you with a concrete, tangible thing for you to accept and say, “well that’s okay then”.  You’re dripping with disingenuousness and you’re just making yourself look foolish by insisting it was all open-hearted good faith.  Nobody asking in good faith ends their request with a pass-agg pre-emptive strike against potential answers, for a start.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> So, does the closure of the "Benefits of Brexit" thread mean that there are officially *no* benefits to Brexit, the the Remainers have won the argument and we can all move on to arguing about something else now?


It is how the individual views it. Most leave voters I know are absolutely happy with brexit. They see a definite benefit of brexit. We have got out of the EU & that is the benefit for leavers. Their vote was respected in the end. For plenty of people who are still working ok or are getting their old age pensions nothing has changed financially for them. The supermarket shelves are still full so no worries. They don’t work in any industries that are affected by brexit.

For some there will definite benefits. We have left the single market so everything needs customs clearance. Both the public sector & private sector will need to train 1000s of new employees to work in customs clearance. It is skilled well paid work. If government stands firm & does not allow farmers to import unskilled migrant workers then maybe some of those farmers will invest & mechanise & employ local people in better paid & less exploitive work ? Plenty of UK firms are having to open wharehouses in Europe but if their previous UK operations were staffed mainly by migrant labour then little is visibly being lost.

Plenty of leavers I know go on holiday to Europe. Mostly Spain for a couple of weeks. As far as they are concerned once Covid is over they can go again. They are not bothered it might take them 10 more minutes at the airport. 

I voted remain because I could not see the point of leaving. I was & still am a Labour voter. I would have gone for a second referendum which might well have been won by remain by a small majority but then the argument would have continued.

Some Labour MPs ie Stephen Kinnock said Labour should have voted through Theresa May’s deal which would have kept us in the customs union & kept free movement. With hindsight perhaps this was a good idea? Johnson’s “oven ready” deal was just the deal offered by EU first but May rejected because it put a customs border in the UK & Johnson agreed at the time.

Brexit will reduce GDP you cannot argue with the maths but it is for the government to decide what to do with the revenue. Tax cuts for the rich or better social services ? The UK voters can decide at the next general election.

For some brexit has spoiled their lives. Plenty of pensioners loved the lifestyle of spending most of their time in a motorhome in Southern Europe. Some will have sold large homes in the the UK. Bought a mobile home on a UK holiday park to keep a UK base & spent £100k on a large motorhome. Others will have homes in the UK & homes or mobile homes in France or Spain spending most of their time in Europe. With the ending of free movement ours as well as EU nationals they are now restricted to 90 days in every 180. Their lifestyles spoiled but to most this will sound like trouble in paradise.

For myself my trips to Europe are more modest. Car & tent in France & Spain. Trips are less than 90 days so little change for me. I was angry about the leave vote for a while but I have accepted it now. Why be bitter ?  Most of my friends voted leave & are happy with how things are. We agree to differ & remain friends.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Yes, and it started quite well.


Even the editor thought it was worthwhile. Then it became unacceptable as loads of posters listed the benefits of Brexit.


----------



## mauvais (Feb 17, 2021)

I was going to post on that Benefits thread with a valuable contribution but it got shut down as I submitted it.

You all struggle to think of anything but it's very good news for Russia and, although you will deny it in your future DV checks, we all secretly want Russia to take over the world. Best anthem, coolest looking jets, shitloads of gulags. The sooner the West collapses into economic ruin the sooner we can all have our own Buran.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I was going to post on that Benefits thread with a valuable contribution but it got shut down as I submitted it.
> 
> You all struggle to think of anything but it's very good news for Russia and, although you will deny it in your future DV checks, we all secretly want Russia to take over the world. Best anthem, coolest looking jets, shitloads of gulags. The sooner the West collapses into economic ruin the sooner we can all have our own Buran.


What does any of this mean?


----------



## mauvais (Feb 17, 2021)

For more information please reread.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

mauvais said:


> For more information please reread.


Thanks.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Even the editor thought it was worthwhile. Then it became unacceptable as loads of posters listed the benefits of Brexit.


That's a thoroughly dishonest take on what happened. Sigh.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> That's a thoroughly dishonest take on what happened. Sigh.


Oh no it’s not.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

But do give your honest account of why the thread got shut.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But do give your honest account of why the thread got shut.


Instead of fabricating arguments and churning out whataboutery, reading the last post in the thread should make the reason why the thread was closed _crystal clear.
_


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> Instead of fabricating arguments and churning out whataboutery, reading the last post in the thread should make the reason why the thread was closed _crystal clear._


its a shame it was closed though, i thought it was an interesting thread - different to this one


----------



## two sheds (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a shame it was closed though, i thought it was an interesting thread - different to this one


Yes - much more specific.


----------



## rubbershoes (Feb 17, 2021)

bimble said:


> What was it that made leaving the customs union an important thing for the government when they were interpreting the referendum result? Why did that become a red line what’s the hoped-for benefit?



Pressure from the ERG. 

They always wanted it as hard as possible


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

Not sure you can find out what people think the benefits of Brexit are by asking, though.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a shame it was closed though, i thought it was an interesting thread - different to this one


For the record - I had no idea it had been closed, and I've no idea why people just don't start a thread in the feedback forum if they want to query a mod decision, rather than bog another thread down.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2021)

Anyone got any views on the debate about whether the ECB should cancel the debt ( from Eurozone countries) that it holds?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Not sure you can find out what people think the benefits of Brexit are by asking, though.


Yet between kabbes and BobDavis the question has been dealt with quite elegantly. Just not in the terms insisted upon by the whinge brigade. Benefits that are gobsmackingly obvious to one side, aren’t considered benefits at all by the other and for the tens of millions of us who don’t tour Europe in a boy band, the loss of mobility is little more than a trifling annoyance. It’s therefore pointless pursuing it any further.


----------



## gosub (Feb 17, 2021)

Brexit: Are freight exports to the EU back to normal?
					

The government says freight volumes to the EU are back to normal. What do the figures show?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2021)

amazing how much bad feeling there still is, and how much people are determined to make that bad feeling worse


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> amazing how much bad feeling there still is, and how much people are determined to make that bad feeling worse


I'm pretty bitter about brexit. This brexit, the one that's actually happened, not some abstract notion of brexit.

And the various ludicrous attempts to make out that those of us who are pissed off by the whole thing are somehow expressing elitist concerns don't exactly help. Top Cat will no doubt attach a 'laughing' smilie at this. Someone else will post something about Waitrose. Fucking clueless, and politically bankrupt.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yet between kabbes and BobDavis the question has been dealt with quite elegantly. Just not in the terms insisted upon by the whinge brigade.


This is a tad generous. I'm not sure what post by kabbes you are talking about, but BobDavis's post basically boils down to (1) A lot of leave voters are happy that their vote was eventually acted on and (2) a lot of leave voters haven't yet noticed any negative impact on themselves. Both valid comments, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to be clear to anyone why these things count as "benefits of Brexit".


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> amazing how much bad feeling there still is, and how much people are determined to make that bad feeling worse



Not amazing at all given the insistence of one group to continually insinuate that the other are a bunch of thick racists.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not amazing at all given the insistence of one group to continually insinuate that the other are a bunch of thick racists.


you're a boring troll, go and post your cry baby pictures on a thread about expensive cars please


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> you're a boring troll, go and post your cry baby pictures on a thread about expensive cars please


If another disingenuous bollocks thread like that gets started again that’s exactly what I’ll do on it.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm pretty bitter about brexit. This brexit, the one that's actually happened, not some abstract notion of brexit.
> 
> And the various ludicrous attempts to make out that those of us who are pissed off by the whole thing are somehow expressing elitist concerns don't exactly help. Top Cat will no doubt attach a 'laughing' smilie at this. Someone else will post something about Waitrose. Fucking clueless, and politically bankrupt.


I lament the lack of a wanker smilie.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> you're a boring troll, go and post your cry baby pictures on a thread about expensive cars please


Pretty poor for you this is.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Pretty poor for you this is.


no, spymaster only posts on urban to get a rise

if you think his contribution here of "everyone is calling us racists" is useful crack on.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> no, spymaster only posts on urban to get a rise
> 
> if you think his contribution here of "everyone is calling us racists" is useful crack on.


It’s a theme for sure. Hidden poorly behind the thin veneer of the liberal mask.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Pretty poor for you this is.


It's actually an improvement on his usual posting standard.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's actually an improvement on his usual posting standard.


your work here is done 
well done


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's actually an improvement on his usual posting standard.


No I don’t agree at all. Brexit is not bringing the best out of anyone really.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not amazing at all given the insistence of one group to continually insinuate that the other are a bunch of thick racists.


Only 52% of leave voters were thick racists


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> This is a tad generous. I'm not sure what post by kabbes you are talking about, but BobDavis's post basically boils down to (1) A lot of leave voters are happy that their vote was eventually acted on and (2) a lot of leave voters haven't yet noticed any negative impact on themselves. Both valid comments, but I don't think it's reasonable to expect it to be clear to anyone why these things count as "benefits of Brexit".



You're being selective. One of the biggest "benefits" mentioned by them and others is in no longer being part of an undemocratic bloc, the benefits of which they hope to become apparent over months and years. All the badgering by remoaners to prove benefits after a couple of weeks are totally missing the point (although we did get a quick glimpse with the NI nonsense a week or two back).


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Not amazing at all given the insistence of one group to continually insinuate that the other are a bunch of thick racists.



To be fair though some supporting leave have mentioned Waitrose apparently.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

It also needs to be noted that benefits and deficits aren’t binary.  Nor are they one-dimensional.  There can be potential benefits that aren’t realised, there can be things that benefit one person whilst harming (or being irrelevant) to another and there can be both benefits and deficits associated with both sides simultaneously.  It isn’t straightforward, frankly, and I find it exhausting how much I read on it presents the whole thing as a pantomime villain one way or the other.

Furthermore, I think that many of the problems people perceive with Brexit are actually problems with this Tory government, not with some technical trading agreement.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

Ok let’s try again. I was mostly sad about brexit. It was a bit like a bereavement. Why was that ? Because I have always travelled in Europe. Not to far flung places but mostly Holland Belgium Germany France Spain. Always in a vehicle never by plane. I have been commercially in a truck years ago & more recently on plenty of camping trips in my car. Travelling by road makes you think. You pass through towns the names of which you forget & see people walking the streets who were born there & will probably die there just like me in my town. This town is their whole lives. The speak a different language but really they are much like me.

I loved the free movement thing. The ease at which one crossed from Dover to Calais. Or on Eurotunnel until recently they often never even checked your passport UK to France. When I went in my truck I loved the way the guys in Dutch warehouses would always give me really nice coffee & ask me about football. They all spoke to me in good English except the French but that was ok. It was part of the fun.

However I have to accept that people I have known for decades in my town. Friends of mine simply do not think like that. “You drive abroad ? On the wrong side of the road ? Fuck that”. They go on coach trips. To the Dutch bulbs fields. To Paris. They view “Europe” through a shop window not in reality. Or they go to Spain several times a year. For a week at a time. They stay in a hotel full of other Brits & get pissed every day.

When the brexit vote was for leave I will give my mates their due. They were sympathetic. “Ffs Bob you will still be able to go on holiday wtf you moaning about?”.

The sky will not fall in. Life will go on. The loss of our free movement will affect very few. I really don’t think leave voters will ever regret their leave vote. We will still go on holiday but for me it will feel different. I will feel like a foreigner in a foreign land. I will just have to deal with it & carry on camping.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Ok let’s try again. I was mostly sad about brexit. It was a bit like a bereavement. Why was that ? Because I have always travelled in Europe. Not to far flung places but mostly Holland Belgium Germany France Spain. Always in a vehicle never by plane. I have been commercially in a truck years ago & more recently on plenty of camping trips in my car. Travelling by road makes you think. You pass through towns the names of which you forget & see people walking the streets who were born there & will probably die there just like me in my town. This town is their whole lives. The speak a different language but really they are much like me.
> 
> I loved the free movement thing. The ease at which one crossed from Dover to Calais. Or on Eurotunnel until recently they often never even checked your passport UK to France. When I went in my truck I loved the way the guys in Dutch warehouses would always give me really nice coffee & ask me about football. They all spoke to me in good English except the French but that was ok. It was part of the fun.
> 
> ...




Your mates were right, if you carry on travelling as you have done in the past you won't notice any difference at all.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It also needs to be noted that benefits and deficits aren’t binary.  Nor are they one-dimensional.  There can be potential benefits that aren’t realised, there can be things that benefit one person whilst harming (or being irrelevant) to another and there can be both benefits and deficits associated with both sides simultaneously.  It isn’t straightforward, frankly, and I find it exhausting how much I read on it presents the whole thing as a pantomime villain one way or the other.
> 
> Furthermore, I think that many of the problems people perceive with Brexit are actually problems with this Tory government, not with some technical trading agreement.


Also, all the ammunition is getting chucked to the whiners at the moment. They're seeing the port delays, hearing all the anecdotes about duty being charged on imported goods (rightly or wrongly-there was someone blaming duty on Canadian imports on Brexit somewhere) and they're able to point at these and shout "TOLD YOU!"

After 6 weeks!

The question needs to start being asked after a year.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> whiners


Honestly?

Leavers get grief and you moan about it while calling remainers this. Kind of a shit attitude mate.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You're being selective. One of the biggest "benefits" mentioned by them and others is in no longer being part of an undemocratic bloc, the benefits of which they hope to become apparent over months and years.


I'm not being selective, because you're talking about something the post I was referencing didn't.

All the same, maybe "no longer part of an undemocratic bloc" can count as an actual perceived benefit. I'll write that one down.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

Meanwhile:


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Honestly?
> 
> Leavers get grief and you moan about it while calling remainers this. Kind of a shit attitude mate.


Yeah, that was deliberate to wind certain people up. I'll stop it now.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Yeah, that was deliberate to wind certain people up. I'll stop that now.


Cheers  

We are all guilty of labelling people over this. I am strongly remain but have given up arguing about it. 

Brexit under a competent government might have been short term hurt but under this shitshow of liars (combined with their criminal pandemic failings) has no chance of any positives for a decade at least. 

For the record I work on the GB - NI and Protocol and it is mess of lies plus disaster for business. We deal with 28k traders and more are either moving operations to Europe or giving up trading with NI / EU. 

Yes we will still be able to have holidays. But most importantly the corrupt UK will be able to enjoy their tax dodging ways while the poor suffer. 





We Won 
Get over it


----------



## toblerone3 (Feb 17, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its a shame it was closed though, i thought it was an interesting thread - different to this one



Yes I would like to rejoin the Benefits of Brexit thread.  At least it had a clear focusing question.  The subject of this one is way too vague.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

😞


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> View attachment 254822
> 
> 😞


This is a definite concrete benefit of Brexit, if you insist on one.  Why the fuck would I want Britain being a lorry route for goods transiting from Ireland to France?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 17, 2021)

Appositely enough, that route from Dunkirk is particularly heroic.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> Meanwhile:
> 
> View attachment 254820


We have a government of lightweights who have zero knowledge of import/export & customs clearance or anything else really. The cabinet have all been chosen for their dedication to the “cause” not for their ability to do their allotted job. We have a Tory yes a Tory government who’s leader actually said “Fuck Business”. At this point business people must have known the game was up. Whatever their Tory party had become it was no longer the party of business & business people where on their own. The reason business people have not said too much publicly is because for example the boss of Tesco can hardly slag off brexit because it would be slagging off a good portion of his customer base.

So that is the government message to business. Don’t expect any help from us because we have no idea what to do. Just get on with it.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> We have a government of lightweights who have zero knowledge of import/export & customs clearance or anything else really. The cabinet have all been chosen for their dedication to the “cause” not for their ability to do their allotted job. We have a Tory yes a Tory government who’s leader actually said “Fuck Business”. At this point business people must have known the game was up. Whatever their Tory party had become it was no longer the party of business & business people where on their own. The reason business people have not said too much publicly is because for example the boss of Tesco can hardly slag off brexit because it would be slagging off a good portion of his customer base.
> 
> So that is the government message to business. Don’t expect any help from us because we have no idea what to do. Just get on with it.



Do you have a view on the benefits in or otherwise of lots of lorries bound for Ireland not trundling through Kent, around London, and 200 miles along the M4, or is this just more general whining?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you have a view on the benefits in or otherwise of lots of lorries bound for Ireland not trundling through Kent, around London, and 200 miles along the M4, or is this just more general whining?


This would be an efficiency/carbon footprint/general environmental damage/workers' conditions question for me. If the new methods are more green when looked at as a whole, then this can be chalked up as a benefit of brexit. It can also be put on the list of 'things that could and should have been done anyway', mind you. It didn't _need_ brexit in order to happen.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you have a view on the benefits in or otherwise of lots of lorries bound for Ireland not trundling through Kent, around London, and 200 miles along the M4, or is this just more general whining?


Tbf the Irish traffic between say Holyhead & Dover is not massive in the great scheme of things but it was a big part of ferry revenue between Ireland & UK so less tax revenue for UK & possible job losses on Irish Sea routes.

Yes there are always 2 sides of course. Those that are fucked off with 44tonne artics slowing their drive to Tesco’s to buy the produce that Tesco’s grows behind all of their superstores will be happy with a few less trucks on the road and of course while the fishermen go bankrupt the conservationists will be happy that the fish are staying in the sea.


----------



## gosub (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You're being selective. One of the biggest "benefits" mentioned by them and others is in no longer being part of an undemocratic bloc, the benefits of which they hope to become apparent over months and years. All the badgering by remoaners to prove benefits after a couple of weeks are totally missing the point (although we did get a quick glimpse with the NI nonsense a week or two back).



tbf It not really a benefit if HMG carries on behaving the way it is.  the Brexit we've ended up with, the democratic input and scrutiny has been appalling


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2021)

You utter Leavy bastards...Leave means no leaves.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you have a view on the benefits in or otherwise of lots of lorries bound for Ireland not trundling through Kent, around London, and 200 miles along the M4, or is this just more general whining?


Think the majority of the traffic being replaced isn't direct, but separate journeys into and out of the UK, so it will mean lost work for UK-based drivers. Feasibly, lower carbon emissions, though.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> You utter Leavy bastards...Leave means no leaves.
> 
> View attachment 254829


If you read that Guardian article the UK tree supplier points out that the UK government is not reciprocating by preventing imports of European trees into UK which he claims bring in disease like Ash dieback.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Tbf the Irish traffic between say Holyhead & Dover is not massive in the great scheme of things but it was a big part of ferry revenue between Ireland & UK so less tax revenue for UK & possible job losses on Irish Sea routes.
> 
> Yes there are always 2 sides of course. Those that are fucked off with 44tonne artics slowing their drive to Tesco’s to buy the produce that Tesco’s grows behind all of their superstores will be happy with a few less trucks on the road and of course while the fishermen go bankrupt the conservationists will be happy that the fish are staying in the sea.



So, to be clear, you think that the _only _benefit to _not _having X quantity of 44 tonne lorries driving 200+ miles's through the UK is 20 seconds less congestion at the Tesco roundabout?

Do you want to close your eyes, take a deep breath, and have a little think about the concept of political blindness?

I think there are downsides to brexit, and they are far larger than queues at ferryports, a shortage of avacados and increased postage charges for musical equipment for crap boy bands - but that doesn't blind me to upsides, as well as some downsides of staying in.

Membership - or not - of the EU is a hugely complex subject that has countless implications across every facet of cultural, economic, political, security and diplomatic spheres. The idea that it can be simply categorised as either 'great', or 'shit', with the counterfactual also being either 'great', or 'shit' is so utterly ignorant that anyone proposing such is - by definition - a drooling fucking simpleton.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> So, to be clear, you think that the _only _benefit to _not _having X quantity of 44 tonne lorries driving 200+ miles's through the UK is 20 seconds less congestion at the Tesco roundabout?
> 
> Do you want to close your eyes, take a deep breath, and have a little think about the concept of political blindness?
> 
> ...


that's doing drooling simpletons down


----------



## Maggot (Feb 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I don’t believe you.  I don’t believe you genuinely thought that two months into Brexit somebody was going to provide you with The Answer to why Brexit had already provided you with a concrete, tangible thing for you to accept and say, “well that’s okay then”.  You’re dripping with disingenuousness and you’re just making yourself look foolish by insisting it was all open-hearted good faith.  Nobody asking in good faith ends their request with a pass-agg pre-emptive strike against potential answers, for a start.


You don't want to answer the question so you attack the person asking it. That's a pretty nasty tactic. I thought you were better than that.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> You don't want to answer the question so you attack the person asking it. That's a pretty nasty tactic. I thought you were better than that.


It was a call out thread, framed to supposedly assist in attacking leave supporters, it was supported by the editor and shut by remainer fridgmagnet when it veered into making some remainers here look foolish.


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> If you read that Guardian article the UK tree supplier points out that the UK government is not reciprocating by preventing imports of European trees into UK which he claims bring in disease like Ash dieback.


There is no real doubt about the fact that ash dieback was imported into Britain with trees from other parts of Europe. 

And mass importation of trees and other plants is bad for biodiversity, even without introduction of disease, because it reduces the naturally occurring genetic variation of plants which have adapted over many thousands of years to particular local conditions. 

If the importation of plants from other parts of Europe is reduced as a result of Brexit, this will be a definite benefit.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It was a call out thread, framed to supposedly assist in attacking leave supporters, it was supported by the editor and shut by remainer fridgmagnet when it veered into making some remainers here look foolish.


How is a thread asking about the benefits of Brexit, a call out thread? I didn't name anyone. It was shut because it descended into the the same arguments and name calling as this thread.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> There is no real doubt about the fact that ash dieback was imported into Britain with trees from other parts of Europe.
> 
> And mass importation of trees and other plant is bad for biodiversity, even without introduction of disease, because it reduces the naturally occurring genetic variation of plants which have adapted over many thousands of years to particular local conditions.
> 
> If the importation of plants from other parts of Europe as a result of Brexit, this will be a definite benefit.


Should be a thread for those sort of Brexit benefits...._get's coat_


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Should be a thread for those sort of Brexit benefits...._get's coat_


We've been over this.

There would be nothing to discuss as there are no benefits to Brexit.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 17, 2021)

kebabking said:


> So, to be clear, you think that the _only _benefit to _not _having X quantity of 44 tonne lorries driving 200+ miles's through the UK is 20 seconds less congestion at the Tesco roundabout?
> 
> Do you want to close your eyes, take a deep breath, and have a little think about the concept of political blindness?
> 
> ...


We pardon me for being sarcastic in my post you quote. I think I started from quoting post #8,884 which also appeared sarcastic in it’s content suggesting the previous thread was closed because remainers had decided there were no benefits from brexit. Of course the subject is hugely complex. I have now accepted the result & moved on. There does however appear to be a desire from some remain voters for brexit to go horribly wrong & for it to end in utter disaster which really it is not going to do. Things will be worked out. The Spanish will certainly not want to lose their huge business in supplying UK with fruit & veg & maybe French & Spanish customers will demand supplies of Scottish shellfish be resumed ? I do know a bit about transport & I can tell you that long sea ro-ro routes are slow, expensive & more susceptible to delays due to poor weather compared to short sea & landbridge that Irish transport co’s are used to. So maybe that will revert back to what was normal in time ?

The main danger to the UK seems to be a government determined to continue the culture wars & their sheer lack of expertise in anything. If the UK voters choose they can remove them at next general election & we can only hope there is a good alternative to vote for.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> We've been over this.
> 
> There would be nothing to discuss as there are no benefits to Brexit.


Illusory benefits are fine, though. You can have as many of those as you like.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 17, 2021)

I am contemptuous of brexit voters who say they knew what they were voting for, and they have achieved it.
If they want to be contemptuous right back I say good, go for it.
I want to be able to identify my enemy more easily, and as one individual in what is said to be a divided country I am definitely on one (the losing) side of the divide.
The faux idealistic brexiter allies who call themselves lexiters or red wallers with their skewed 'logic' and justifications, are especially held in utter contempt by me, and will be until my dying day.
Those who voted brexit were allies of Farage, Johnson, Gove and others, and given the binary choice I feel no shame being lumped in with the pig fecker compared to them.
Anyway lexiters, what are you planning to contribute to your festival of Brexit Britain?


----------



## andysays (Feb 17, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Illusory benefits are fine, though. You can have as many of those as you like.


The benefit I've just mentioned definitely isn't illusory.

I don't expect any hardcore Remainers to have their minds changed overall by my pointing it out, but it is a real benefit nonetheless.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 17, 2021)

Futile


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> You don't want to answer the question so you attack the person asking it. That's a pretty nasty tactic. I thought you were better than that.


Jesus Christ, I’ve provided in-depth answers to this question _multiple_ times, including linking to a full fucking _academic paper_ that looks at the consequences for land use legislation, complete with quoting the abstract.  I did that in _your own thread_.  The fact that you dismiss all of that as “don’t want to answer” proves EXACTLY my point about your bad faith in asking the question. You have no interest in understanding what the benefits might be from the perspective of different people, you just want to sneer at Brexiters.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Jesus Christ, I’ve provided in-depth answers to this question _multiple_ times, including linking to a full fucking _academic paper_ that looks at the consequences for land use legislation, complete with quoting the abstract.  I did that in _your own thread_.  The fact that you dismiss all of that as “don’t want to answer” proves EXACTLY my point about your bad faith in asking the question. You have no interest in understanding what the benefits might be from the perspective of different people, you just want to sneer at Brexiters.


You'd have had more luck with a cry-baby picture.


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It was a call out thread, framed to supposedly assist in attacking leave supporters, it was supported by the editor and shut by remainer fridgmagnet when it veered into making some remainers here look foolish.


And there's another thoroughly dishonest take on what actually happened, accompanied by a giant chip on your shoulder.

Did you report it? Did you ask FM why he closed it? And why haven't you done what I - and the rules - suggested ages go and opened up a thread in the feedback forum instead of droning on and on here?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> And there's another thoroughly dishonest take on what actually happened, accompanied by a giant chip on your shoulder.
> 
> Did you report it? Did you ask FM why he closed it? And why haven't you done what I - and the rules - suggested ages go and opened up a thread in the feedback forum instead of droning on and on here?


Droning on eh? You must be embarrassed given the thread is there for all to read and laugh at.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> And there's another thoroughly dishonest take on what actually happened, accompanied by a giant chip on your shoulder.
> 
> Did you report it? Did you ask FM why he closed it? And why haven't you done what I - and the rules - suggested ages go and opened up a thread in the feedback forum instead of droning on and on here?


Oh and maggot brought the discussion of that thread into here.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Jesus Christ, I’ve provided in-depth answers to this question _multiple_ times, including linking to a full fucking _academic paper_ that looks at the consequences for land use legislation, complete with quoting the abstract.  I did that in _your own thread_.


Yes, you gave one answer that had already been covered by ska invita  on page one. Well done!

And in the same post when  asked for benefits you said 





> I reject the premise


----------



## kabbes (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Yes, you gave one answer that had already been covered by ska invita  on page one. Well done!


Enjoy your sneering.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Yes, you gave one answer that had already been covered by ska invita  on page one. Well done!


Ahhhh, so it's _the number _of answers you were given that you're not happy with.

Be honest, it was a trolling thread, identical to one that got merged into this one last week. It didn't go the way you and others had hoped (neither did the other one) and it got popped. You're now pretending that your motives for posting it were well-intentioned but nobody believes you so you are back-pedalling furiously while putting up a harrumphy smoke screen. 

Fair tactic!


----------



## TopCat (Feb 17, 2021)

Perhaps some will never accept brexit benefits unless they can weigh them at the Waitrose cheese counter.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ahhhh, so it's _the number _of answers you're given that you're not happy with.
> 
> Be honest, it was a trolling thread, identical to one that got merged into this one last week. It didn't go the way you and others had hoped (neither did the other one) and it got popped. You're now pretending that your motives for posting it were well-intentioned but nobody believes you so you are back-pedalling furiously while putting up a harrumphy smoke screen.
> 
> Fair tactic!


Spymaster accusing _me_ of trolling


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Perhaps some will never accept brexit benefits unless they can weigh them at the Waitrose cheese counter.


I really no idea what you're bringing up the Waitrose cheese counter, so could you explain its relevance please?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2021)

Gouda hell is he gonna do that?


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Gouda hell is he gonna do that?


Surely it's emmentalary?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 17, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Spymaster accusing _me_ of trolling


Well obviously the fact that I do it _better_ doesn’t mean that others don’t do it at all 

It was a half decent attempt but you should have just left it when you were caught with your trousers down.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well obviously the fact that I do it _better_ doesn’t mean that others don’t do it at all
> 
> It was a half decent attempt but you should have just left it when you were caught with your trousers down.


i seem to recall you starting a thread with your trousers down so Maggot, he's got the benefit of experience on this one


----------



## Flavour (Feb 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Perhaps some will never accept brexit benefits unless they can weigh them at the Waitrose cheese counter.



In pounds and ounces mind


----------



## editor (Feb 17, 2021)

It's all going to work out great. We've just got to wait half a century for the best bits. 









						WATCH: Rees-Mogg says it'll take 50 years for Brexit benefits
					

Jacob Rees-Mogg has suggested it could take half a century for Britain to reap any rewards from Brexit.




					www.theneweuropean.co.uk


----------



## Raheem (Feb 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> The benefit I've just mentioned definitely isn't illusory.



I wasn't referring to that in particular.

I don't think the thing about trees isn't really a benefit at all, though. It's not something I've studied in detail, but I don't think the situation has changed substantively from when we were in the EU. Within, the EU, plants are not treated like other goods, and each country sets its own rules. What's changed is that Ireland's rules now effectively apply in the North.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> It's all going to work out great. We've just got to wait half a century for the best bits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



By 2070 the UK will probably have rejoined and left the EU at least once more so who knows, maybe they will actually get it right the second or third time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> By 2050 the UK will probably have rejoined and left the EU at least once more so who knows, maybe they will actually get it right the second or third time.


Hokey cokey uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 17, 2021)

editor said:


> It's all going to work out great. We've just got to wait half a century for the best bits.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Quicker than I expected


----------



## SpookyFrank (Feb 17, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> By 2070 the UK will probably have rejoined and left the EU at least once more so who knows, maybe they will actually get it right the second or third time.



Except by then the EU will have been officially rebranded as the Franco-Teutonic Imperium, under the immortal leadership of Mecha-Merkel and the ghost of Napoleon.


----------



## gosub (Feb 17, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> By 2070 the UK will probably have rejoined and left the EU at least once more so who knows, maybe they will actually get it right the second or third time.



Got sever doubt the EU will make it to 2070 (or the UK for that matter), that said I KNOW I won't


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

I read that one concrete benefit to brexit that has happened in the short time since it was done is that it meant the UK could get enough vaccines very quickly without getting caught up in EU bureaucracy, which is why this country is way ahead of all others in europe in rolling out vaccinations (along with the fact that it is being rolled out by the NHS not a private contractor). If that is true then it is a pretty huge benefit to get so early on right?


----------



## 2hats (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I read that one concrete benefit to brexit that has happened in the short time since it was done is that it meant the UK could get enough vaccines very quickly without getting caught up in EU bureaucracy, which is why this country is way ahead of all others in europe in rolling out vaccinations. If that is true then it is a pretty huge benefit to get so early on right?


Post #7964.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

If the EU is responsible for Ash Dieback it can fuck right off, that’s decimating half of the forest here. Should have left ages ago if it would have meant their stupid fungus stayed in Brussels.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

2hats said:


> Post #7964.


The quote I just read was "while it would have been legally possible to go it alone as an EU member, there is little doubt the UK would have been snarled up in Brussels politics, and far less able to procure at speed. Overall production would have been the loser." I haven't read any mainstream news articles, across the spectrum, that disagree with that assessment, so I believe it.


----------



## Supine (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I read that one concrete benefit to brexit that has happened in the short time since it was done is that it meant the UK could get enough vaccines very quickly without getting caught up in EU bureaucracy, which is why this country is way ahead of all others in europe in rolling out vaccinations (along with the fact that it is being rolled out by the NHS not a private contractor). If that is true then it is a pretty huge benefit to get so early on right?



Yeah but it is completely untrue. Infact the UK actions on this were taken while in the EU transition period.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> The quote I just read was "while it would have been legally possible to go it alone as an EU member, there is little doubt the UK would have been snarled up in Brussels politics, and far less able to procure at speed. Overall production would have been the loser." I haven't read any mainstream news articles, across the spectrum, that disagree with that assessment, so I believe it.


What is that 'little doubt' based on, though?


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> What is that 'little doubt' based on, though?


I guess based on what happened in every country that did use the EU's joint procurement.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

Supine said:


> Yeah but it is completely untrue. Infact the UK actions on this were taken while in the EU transition period.


Well I dunno every news outlet is reporting it as a failure of the EU, across the spectrum. I really think you have to accept this is one score for "benefit of not being part of the EU", whatever side you are on, otherwise it seems a bit desperate. You could say "yes it did work out well just this once, but it is an extremely rare set of circumstances and the benefits to being in the EU far outweigh it", but you can't say "no this is entirely irrelevant to brexit so put it out of your head".


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

Supine said:


> Yeah but it is completely untrue. Infact the UK actions on this were taken while in the EU transition period.


Whilst the UK were in the EU transition period, they nevertheless were out of the EU and had a cultural preference for doing things without the EU.  Countries staying in the EU had a strong pressure to act collectively as the EU.  After all, what’s the point of being a single political bloc if you don’t do things as a bloc?  So pointing out the legal possibilities really misses the point.  As rutabowa notes, all the countries that were in the EU used the EU joint procurement program and there is no reason to think that a remain-voting UK wouldn’t have done the same.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I guess based on what happened in every country that did use the EU's joint procurement.


That doesn't follow, though. There was no compulsion to use the EU's joint procurement. Hungary has broken ranks and is now going faster. Any country could have chosen not even to join those ranks. The EU didn't have the power to force its members to join in with its joint programme. 

That isn't to claim that the EU's system worked better than the UK's. It clearly didn't. But it's false to claim, if people are claiming this, that the UK couldn't have done what it has done without brexit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> there is no reason to think that a remain-voting UK wouldn’t have done the same.


Other than the UK's long history as the EU's awkward member that didn't join in with things. A 'remain-voting' UK government dealing with ongoing tensions regarding closer EU integration could easily have seen this as a moment to demonstrate independence from the EU. 

I don't think this counterfactual is without huge amounts of doubt.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That doesn't follow, though. There was no compulsion to use the EU's joint procurement. Hungary has broken ranks and is now going faster. Any country could have chosen not even to join those ranks. The EU didn't have the power to force its members to join in with its joint programme.
> 
> That isn't to claim that the EU's system worked better than the UK's. It clearly didn't. But it's false to claim, if people are claiming this, that the UK couldn't have done what it has done without brexit.


It’s not so much about what they _could_ have done as it is about what they _would_ have done.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Other than the UK's long history as the EU's awkward member that didn't join in with things.


They don’t have a long history of not joining in with this kind of thing.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

It does seem a weird argument to say "being in the EU is fine as we can just ignore what they tell us to do." Surely that isn't in the spirit of it. More honest to just not be in it, rather than staying in and ignoring what they say to do.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s not so much about what they _could_ have done as it is about what they _would_ have done.


Yes, and as such it is a counterfactual that requires a bunch of assumptions.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> It does seem a weird argument to say "being in the EU is fine as we can just ignore what they tell us to do." Surely that isn't in the spirit of it. More honest to just not be in it, rather than staying in and ignoring what they say to do.


This kind of language, though, 'what they tell us to do', isn't really accurate in this particular instance.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yes, and as such it is a counterfactual that requires a bunch of assumptions.


It only involves the assumption that choosing to stay in the EU would have involved doing things as part of the EU.

I find it bizarre to suggest that in a world in which remain had won with the result that Cameron and Osborne had remained in charge with their successors coming from continuity remain, the direction of travel would then have been to do things that undermined EU solidarity.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> This kind of language, though, 'what they tell us to do', isn't really accurate in this particular instance.


I mean it is my language, but are you saying there was no pressure put on countries in the EU to use EU joint procurement rather than going it alone?

Edit: this report says member states are "encouraged" to use it, whatever that means




__





						The Role of the Joint Procurement Agreement during the COVID-19 Pandemic: Assessing Its Usefulness and Discussing Its Potential to Support a European Health Union | European Journal of Risk Regulation | Cambridge Core
					

The Role of the Joint Procurement Agreement during the COVID-19 Pandemic: Assessing Its Usefulness and Discussing Its Potential to Support a European Health Union - Volume 11 Issue 4




					www.cambridge.org


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

Uk has done really well on vaccinations, and it’s quite likely that the mindset of leaving the EU helped when they decided not to join in the joint procurement plan.
This chart here provides a bit of a different perspective though, it shows % of population that have been fully vaccinated, instead of having received one dose.









						Coronavirus (COVID-19) Vaccinations
					

Our vaccination dataset uses the most recent official numbers from governments and health ministries worldwide. Population estimates for per-capita metrics are based on the United Nations World Population Prospects. Income groups are based on the World Bank classification. A full list of our...




					ourworldindata.org


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Uk has done really well on vaccinations, and it’s quite likely that the mindset of leaving the EU helped when they decided not to join in the joint procurement plan.
> This chart here provides a bit of a different perspective though, it shows % of population that have been fully vaccinated, instead of having received one dose.
> View attachment 254936
> 
> ...


That has turned out to be a good decision too, with regulators all over the place starting to recommend focusing on the first dose.  The Pfizer vaccine has now been found to be 93% effective after two weeks after one dose and there is pressure in the US to start prioritising first doses rather than worrying about second doses.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Uk has done really well on vaccinations, and it’s quite likely that the mindset of leaving the EU helped when they decided not to join in the joint procurement plan.
> This chart here provides a bit of a different perspective though, it shows % of population that have been fully vaccinated, instead of having received one dose.
> View attachment 254936
> 
> ...


YES absolutely, fair enough, I'm def not saying it is perfect! But you at least have to acknowledge that, in this v specific case, brexit probably did have some benefit.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

Yep, I think maybe it’s more a case of what led us to brexit (the pulling away from the centralised control that’s been happening for a long time) than brexit itself, but yeah.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2021)

It seems that one dose stops you from dying or even ending up in hospital, which is the absolutely main thing right now. So it would seem that in the real world Brexit has meant that the UK went it alone and much faster and lives have been saved. Astonishing that there are people trying to play that down.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

It wasn't brexit itself but it was our pioneering and indepedent spirit, our boldness, the same one that made us conquer the waves and made the referendum necessary here before it became necessary anywhere else. _waves tiny flag_


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> It wasn't brexit itself but it was our pioneering and indepedent spirit, our boldness, the same one that made us conquer the waves and made the referendum necessary here before it became necessary anywhere else. _waves tiny flag_




Not to mention our smiling Turbot.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> The quote I just read was "while it would have been legally possible to go it alone as an EU member, there is little doubt the UK would have been snarled up in Brussels politics, and far less able to procure at speed. Overall production would have been the loser."


Seems a bit vague. Are you able to explain what it means? How might the UK have become ensnared?


----------



## Supine (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> YES absolutely, fair enough, I'm def not saying it is perfect! But you at least have to acknowledge that, in this v specific case, brexit probably did have some benefit.



Well no, because Brexit had no impact on it. I can't be arsed with pro/anti Brexit arguements anymore as it is done. Vaccine apprioval, and supply and purchasing could have been done independently or jointly under either scenario. 

A bit of me does think it would have been better to do joint procurement for solidarity with our European neighbours tbh. I'm very happy we are rolling out vaccines at speed but it's for the good of the UK not the good of the wider world. I'd also like a lot more support for covax to help poorer nations but that's another matter.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> It wasn't brexit itself but it was our pioneering and indepedent spirit, our boldness, the same one that made us conquer the waves and made the referendum necessary here before it became necessary anywhere else. _waves tiny flag_


Yeah. That or dumb luck.

UK could have joined in if it had wanted to. Chose not to, for not entirely good reasons, it has to be said. 



> Between 26 and 27 March, the UK government moved from saying it did not intend to join the EU’s joint procurement programme for Covid-19, to saying that it could participate in future tenders.
> 
> The explanation? Apparently emails from the European Commission in relation to four tenders were missed, which left the UK unable to participate.



EU joint procurement - UK's delayed participation undermines the NHS and risks lives | UK in a changing Europe


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It only involves the assumption that choosing to stay in the EU would have involved doing things as part of the EU.
> 
> I find it bizarre to suggest that in a world in which remain had won with the result that Cameron and Osborne had remained in charge with their successors coming from continuity remain, the direction of travel would then have been to do things that undermined EU solidarity.


But the EU states that got impatient and did negotiate their own contracts, ended up having them subsumed into the EU one and have ended up (at this stage) having had to share what they arranged to procure shared with the rest of EUrope at the 'benefit' the vaccines costing less per vile.  

In other news
Eurozone tries to patch up its broken debt rules (telegraph.co.uk) 
2021's French and German elections , could well be a 'hold my beer' to 2020's US election.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

OK there is an argument that there should have been more european solidarity. It would be quite a tough sell to people in the UK though: "we shouldn't really have all these vaccines, really we should have a lot less and have more people die in the UK but it would have been fairer." I mean it is probably right globally speaking, but good luck trying to make that argument talking to people living in the UK.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> OK there is an argument that there should have been more european solidarity. It would be quite a tough sell to people in the UK though: "we shouldn't really have had all these vaccines, really we should have a lot less and have more people die in the UK but it would have been fairer." I mean it is probably right globally speaking, but good luck trying to make that argument talking to people living in the UK.


If the UK had joined in with the EU scheme, we would never have known that it would have had a quicker roll out outside that scheme.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

It's not really a 'benefit of brexit' we're talking about here. If you're praising the UK, it's actually praising the wisdom of the Boris Johnson government. 

As I said, in this instance, we're talking mostly about dumb luck.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> 2021's French and German elections , could well be a 'hold my beer' to 2020's US election.


Marine le Pen doing well apparently. She used to want Frexit but doesn't now, does anyone know why?


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 18, 2021)

It is fine line to tread. It is fair to say that plenty are are convinced brexit is the cause of our world leading vaccine programme & nothing will change their minds. Ed Balls of all people made a good point on R4 news this morning. He opined that the UK’s post brexit position in the world would be better served by leading the way but without the triumphalism. As subtle as calling our successful vaccination programme world leading not world beating perhaps ?


----------



## 2hats (Feb 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> That has turned out to be a good decision too, with regulators all over the place starting to recommend focusing on the first dose.  The Pfizer vaccine has now been found to be 93% effective after two weeks after one dose and there is pressure in the US to start prioritising first doses rather than worrying about second doses.


The Israelis aren't convinced that they are seeing that in the real world.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Marine le Pen doing well apparently. She used to want Frexit but doesn't now, does anyone know why?



As far as I understand, the RN (rebrand of FN) now favour a remain-and-reform position of winding the EU back to a kind of EEC-form 'alliance'.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> It is fine line to tread. It is fair to say that plenty are are convinced brexit is the cause of our world leading vaccine programme & nothing will change their minds. Ed Balls of all people made a good point on R4 news this morning. He opined that the UK’s post brexit position in the world would be better served by leading the way but without the triumphalism. As subtle as calling our successful vaccination programme world leading not world beating perhaps ?


Oh definitely. But it is difficult when there are also plenty of people who are convinced that out scheme is not actually world leading, it was just luck, it is a tory scheme so must be shit, and anyway we could have done it within the EU anyway, and anyway it would have been better if we didn't do it at all.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

2hats said:


> The Israelis aren't convinced that they are seeing that in the real world.


I have to bow to the expertise of others on this one.  It seems like a mess of views right now though.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Seems a bit vague. Are you able to explain what it means? How might the UK have become ensnared?


I was just looking at what actually happened in countries accross the EU.

This report, very pro-EU from happier times last year, suggests that the direction of movement should be towards a "healthcare union". Not sure that will have many takers now, but it was clearly an ambition: The Role of the Joint Procurement Agreement during the COVID-19 Pandemic: Assessing Its Usefulness and Discussing Its Potential to Support a European Health Union | European Journal of Risk Regulation | Cambridge Core

" The use of the JPA to enhance a technological revolution in healthcare would solve at least some of the problems associated with the acquisition of health technologies, but it could be a practical stepping stone towards a closer “Healthcare Union”. It might be argued that this would bring EU health law even more within the Internal Market domain and would increase the level of economic considerations in such a politically sensitive policy area. However, an economic instrument like the JPA, which, as yet, has attracted very little attention in legal scholarship, might be the key to unlocking further cooperation between Member States’ healthcare systems, supporting the creation of an innovative, accessible and inclusive European Health Union."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Oh definitely. But it is difficult when there are also plenty of people who are convinced that out scheme is not actually world leading, it was just luck, it is a tory scheme so must be shit, and anyway we could have done it within the EU anyway, and anyway it would have been better if we didn't do it at all.


Maybe it's just better not to frame it in terms of brexit at all? 

And wrt this government, it appears to be one thing they have done better than many other governments, one among hundreds that it did much worse. It's not too much of a stretch to think that, wrt the government decisions at least, this was mostly down to dumb luck, and it doesn't bring anyone back to life.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Marine le Pen doing well apparently. She used to want Frexit but doesn't now, does anyone know why?


Populism init? Polls atm show that any frexit ref would be lost but if that changes then Le Pen’s opinion will change I‘m sure.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

I mostly don't frame it terms of brexit, but this is a thread about brexit.

All it needs is to say "yes that is one example where the EU fucked up and acting outside the EU proved advantageous for whatever reason", and then move on. It is not the only issue, it is probably quite trivial in the scheme of things, but trying to say that it does not show anything at all about the EU just looks totally deluded from the outside.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 18, 2021)

It's not allowed to be a benefit. Nothing is.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I was just looking at what actually happened in countries accross the EU.


So, are you looking at countries that opted in and saying "Here's what happens when you opt out"?


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> OK there is an argument that there should have been more european solidarity. It would be quite a tough sell to people in the UK though: "we shouldn't really have all these vaccines, really we should have a lot less and have more people die in the UK but it would have been fairer." I mean it is probably right globally speaking, but good luck trying to make that argument talking to people living in the UK.



Beyond vaccines...Western economies will need defibulating as a result of covid.  Do you think the UK, were it involved in the EU bun fight, would have been a net recipient of aid or a bankroller?


----------



## Supine (Feb 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It's not allowed to be a benefit. Nothing is.



Surely you have enough other benefits you don't need to pretend this was one


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

It would have been good if the same independent brexit-leaning mindset had led to some sort of attempt to control how many covid positive people were flying in and out of our island this past year, a bit odd that it didn't until last week, imo.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 18, 2021)

Supine said:


> Surely you have enough other benefits you don't need to pretend this was one



I voted Remain ffs


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> Marine le Pen doing well apparently. She used to want Frexit but doesn't now, does anyone know why?


I can't imagine there's many Europeans looking over the utter chaos of Brexit and thinking, "Yeah, I'd love some of that for my country."


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> Beyond vaccines...Western economies will need defibulating as a result of covid.  Do you think the UK, were it involved in the EU bun fight, would have been a net recipient of aid or a bankroller?


It also doesn't look like there was much solidarity within the EU joitn procure agreement when it came to the crunch: How Europe fell behind on vaccines


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> It would have been good if the same independent brexit-leaning mindset had led to some sort of attempt to control how many covid positive people were flying in and out of our island this past year, a bit odd that it didn't until last week, imo.


tbh it's part of the same mindset that threw its weight and money behind the vaccine. It's not a coincidence that Donald Trump also placed huge emphasis on developing a vaccine rather than controlling the spread. 

I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

editor said:


> I can't imagine there's many Europeans looking over the utter chaos of Brexit and thinking, "Yeah, I'd love some of that for my country."


They'll be watching closely, if all looks good in a couple of years I think it will probably happen. If not not.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I voted Remain ffs


I too supported remain (I didn't vote, I forgot. I figure it was Other People's Argument.... still do). Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> tbh it's part of the same mindset that threw its weight and money behind the vaccine. It's not a coincidence that Donald Trump also placed huge emphasis on developing a vaccine rather than controlling the spread.
> 
> I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.


On the face of it being an island looks like a massive advantage, in a pandemic, but one which was not seized at all. Even after the constant refrain of 'control our borders' for years, so I'm still not sure why they chose to do sod all on that front.
I think the island-ness of the uk is a bigger factor in brexit than its given credit for, too, but thats an entirely different conversation.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I'm glad the vaccine is rolling out swiftly here. But it needs to be seen as part of a wider whole.


Ok for sure I agree with that. I also think looking at the wider whole does not show the EU in a very good light either though; seems like the rich countries still get it first, but everyone is delayed by a few months.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Ok for sure I agree with that. I also think looking at the wider whole does not show the EU in a very good light either though; seems like the rich countries still get it first, but everyone is delayed by a few months.


I don't think the pandemic has shown the EU in a good light at all, not just over the vaccine. Overall, it probably gets a D or an E grade. As does the UK.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I too supported remain. Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.



Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.

I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.
> 
> I feel it's a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.


I think it is how most people in the country feel tbh. It is just that the arguments are loudest.


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> They'll be watching closely, if all looks good in a couple of years I think it will probably happen. If not not.


How? There is no exit mechanism for the EUro


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> So, are you looking at countries that opted in and saying "Here's what happens when you opt out"?


I don't really think your questions are going anywhere interesting, so I'm not expending any more effort in replying.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.
> 
> I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.


oh there's a great deal more crying to come: not about the why but about the impacts of the brexit which our government is hellbent on. make no mistake, there's a great deal more brexit to come. the rill thus far wept will become a mighty river like the lena as more tears are shed.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> How? There is no exit mechanism for the EUro


What do you mean, why couldn't they just go back to having Francs if they leave the EU? Massive ballache sure but impossible? The Euro currency i have never understood tbh, how it's even supposed to really work.


----------



## andysays (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> If the EU is responsible for Ash Dieback it can fuck right off, that’s decimating half of the forest here. Should have left ages ago if it would have meant their stupid fungus stayed in Brussels.


I didn't expect to make any converts, but I welcome any who declare themselves


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I don't think the pandemic has shown the EU in a good light at all, not just over the vaccine. Overall, it probably gets a D or an E grade. As does the UK.


agreed again. There are sooo many things that the UK government did get terribly wrong!

So I guess that is another plus for brexit: if the EU is shown up as not providing benefit to its member states, and also shown as providing the most benefits to the richest countries whilst the poorer countries get the leftovers, than that is a good reason for not being part of it I guess.... possibly. It definitely goes in the "debit" column for "belonging the EU benefits" anyway.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I too supported remain (I didn't vote, I forgot. I figure it was Other People's Argument.... still do). Still don't support brexit really. It is just when something is as clear as this point, it looks crazy to deny it imo.


Hard to accept that it's particularly clear when I can't get an explanation of what it means (and when you're own reason for believing it seems to be that you read someone's unelaborated opinion and see no reason not to just accept it).


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

I can't explain it any more clearly. Everyone else seems to have got it anyway.


----------



## andysays (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Maybe it's just better not to frame it in terms of brexit at all?
> 
> And wrt this government, it appears to be one thing they have done better than many other governments, one among hundreds that it did much worse. It's not too much of a stretch to think that, wrt the government decisions at least, this was mostly down to dumb luck, and it doesn't bring anyone back to life.


Loads of Remain supporters have been demanding that Leave supporters come up with a concrete benefit of Brexit, less than two months after the thing has actually happened. 

When someone suggests that   the quicker and apparently more effective roll out of covid vaccinations is one such benefit, it takes a special level of disingenuous to turn round and say this.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> agreed again. There are sooo many things that the UK government did get terribly wrong!
> 
> So I guess that is another plus for brexit: if the EU is shown up as not providing benefit to its member states, and also shown as providing the most benefits to the richest countries whilst the poorer countries get the leftovers, than that is a good reason for not being part of it I guess.... possibly. It definitely goes in the "debit" column for "belonging the EU benefits" anyway.


It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Loads of Remain supporters have been demanding that Leave supporters come up with a concrete benefit of Brexit, less than two months after the thing has actually happened.
> 
> When someone suggests that   the quicker and apparently more effective roll out of covid vaccinations is one such benefit, it takes a special level of disingenuous to turn round and say this.


This lot remind me of that Comical Ali dude, who refused to accept that there were American tanks in Iraq when there was one in the picture behind him


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> What do you mean, why couldn't they just go back to having Francs if they leave the EU? Massive ballache sure but impossible? The Euro currency i have never understood tbh, how it's even supposed to really work.


Would that franc be backed by the reserves given to the ECB or are they now 'pooled'


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I can't explain it any more clearly. Everyone else seems to have got it anyway.


I wasn't asking you to explain, just pointing out that you haven't.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.


Yes fine, this was probably my position too if I was pinned down. SO, this being the case: that is how the EU currently is, and there are currently no plans in sight to change it, so it therefore HAS to also go down as a "benefit of leaving" right? that is just logic.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This lot remind me of that Comical Ali dude who refused to accept that there were American tanks in Iraq when there was one in the picture behind him


I wouldn't get started on Iraq as an analogy, though.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 18, 2021)

Britain's impressively efficient vaccine rollout is a massive victory for the NHS.

The government's vaccine procurement strategy could also end up being a good advertisement for Brexit but that's going to depend on how well the AstraZeneca vaccine performs against COVID variants and whether or not Britain has become over-reliant on it - declaring it an unqualified success now seems a bit like declaring victory well before half-time when the other team (the virus, not the EU) still has plenty of substitutions to make.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Britain's impressively efficient vaccine rollout is a massive victory for the NHS.
> 
> The government's vaccine procurement strategy could also end up being a good advertisement for Brexit but that's going to depend on how well the AstraZeneca vaccine performs against COVID variants and whether or not Britain has become over-reliant on it - declaring it an unqualified success now seems a bit like declaring victory well before half-time when the other team (the virus, not the EU) still has plenty of substitutions to make.


I don't think that how well the vaccine performs in the end changes the fact that it was the right (or wrong) bet to make in the first place. Nothing is certain, but it was def right to take that action as quickly as possible imo.

And, obviously, the impressive rollout could not have taken place if we didn't have the vaccine doses in the first place. It just seems squirmy to avoid saying at any costs that the procurement was a success.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 18, 2021)

The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one. 
The principle of Bullingdon Boys throwing money at the mess that they make is a shit one.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one.


That does sound good. It doesn't sound anything like what actually happened in the EU though.


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Essentially, the milk has been spilled and I don't see any point in crying about it now. It doesn't help, it stokes conflict and enmity, and it's really lame and boring.
> 
> I feel this is a minority position, but that doesn't stop it from being the right position.


So people whose livelihoods have been devastated by Brexit should just _shush now_ and quit lobbying and shouting for change because it's "really lame and boring"?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

editor said:


> So people whose livelihoods have been devastated by Brexit should just _shush now_ and quit lobbying and shouting for change because it's "really lame and boring"?


Yeah, that's just silly. Democracy wrt the UK's relationship with the EU did not stop in June 2016. That doesn't have to mean a narrow 'Rejoin!' position, merely one that says 'this brexit is really shit, I advocate these changes'.

imo the most destructive aspect of the 'get over it' attitude is the way that it normalises the idea that certain things simply cannot be changed now, things that were and are by no means inevitable with brexit, such as the removal of free movement. That plays right into the hands of the tories imo.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yeah, that's just silly. Democracy wrt the UK's relationship with the EU did not stop in June 2016. That doesn't have to mean a narrow 'Rejoin!' position, merely one that says 'this brexit is really shit, I advocate these changes'.


I think emphasising the second part ("I advocate these changes") will get far better results than the first part ("this brexit is really shit"). In fact the first part is actually counterproductive to achieving the second, as well as being redundant. If you start with that, it is like saying "FIRSTLY stop listening to me, and secondly I would like you to do xxxx things for me."


----------



## not-bono-ever (Feb 18, 2021)

it’s an army of fucking  strawmen . I expected better on here. Poor show.


----------



## andysays (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> I think emphasising the second part ("I advocate these changes") will get far better results than the first part ("this brexit is really shit"). In fact the first part is actually counterproductive to achieving the second, as well as being redundant.


It's not even "this brexit is really shit", TBH, it's more like "there is absolute nothing about brexit which might be a benefit. Anything you claim as a benefit isn't really to do with Brexit, it's just a coincidence"


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's an illustration of some of the ways the EU needs to change. Dunno about others, but my position was always akin to 'radical remain' in any case. I wanted the UK to stay in the EU and I wanted the EU to undergo reforms.


“Radical remain” makes “lexit” look realistic and thought-through


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

If there had been any kind of campaign to remain but reform radically then who knows I might have remembered to vote, but unfortunately the vote was between "EU flag and facepaint" or "union jack and facepaint", and fuck both of those flags. And now, having left, there is no way that rejoining could be anything but a complete EU flag exercise with no possibility of any reform, so best to think of other ways forward.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> “Radical remain” makes “lexit” look realistic and thought-through


In my case, not really that. Can't speak for others. It was recognising, and indeed outlining, the ways you want the EU to change, but also judging that the UK leaving the EU _in these circumstances_ was even worse than remaining in the EU _as it is now_, warts and all.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> If there had been any kind of campaign to remain but reform radically then who knows I might have remembered to vote, but unfortunately the vote was between "EU flag and facepaint" or "union jack and facepaint", and fuck both of those flags. And now, having left, there is no way that rejoining could be anything but a complete EU flag exercise with no possibility of any reform, so best to think of other ways forward.


I don't think anyone here is talking about rejoining, even some tories are talking about renegotiating bits of the treaty though.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

There was and is no chance of any kind of EU reform except to make it _more_ neoliberal.  It exists to shore up capitalism via facilitating the flow of capital, labour and goods.  It is part of the neoliberal project, which was and is to counter Marxism by making individualism seem the only way.  This involves the valorisation of “freedom” and agency, which is why it appears “progressive” in terms of supporting those individual rights that don’t interfere with the needs of capital.  But it does not exist to benefit ordinary people in any way and there is no way the power that exists buried in those opaque structures are ever going to start some kind of process to unwind precisely what it is set up to do.  They wouldn’t even give Cameron any tiny concession that was in any way counter to their project merely to help him keep the UK within their structure.

And that’s before you get to the difficulty in changing a multinational institution via the cultural pressure arising from a single nation.  How’s that going to happen?

In short, the very idea of “radical remain” is not just insanely optimistic, it’s a total misunderstanding of the whole basis of the modern western world.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> In my case, not really that. Can't speak for others. It was recognising, and indeed outlining, the ways you want the EU to change, but also judging that the UK leaving the EU _in these circumstances_ was even worse than remaining in the EU _as it is now_, warts and all.


Well, that was what I thought too in 2016.  I’m open now, however, to the fact that in 2031, it doesn’t have to still be that way.  Brexit and the future path of the UK is still open for negotiation and change.  The EU, however, is doing _exactly_ what it was designed to do, so why would it reverse that?


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I don't think anyone here is talking about rejoining, even some tories are talking about renegotiating bits of the treaty though.



I'd bet a fiver that an Urban poll would get a majority in favour of Rejoin, if it wasn't shut down within minutes for being an obvious troll.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one.



Which is exactly what's happening with the EU roll-out.

Oh, hang on ....


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I don't think anyone here is talking about rejoining, even some tories are talking about renegotiating bits of the treaty though.


I'm not so sure that noone wants to rejoin. I am 100% sure, though, that noone is saying "the deal is totally perfect as it is now, let's just leave it exactly as it is and never discuss it again". Obviously tons of things need to change/be decided.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 18, 2021)

As far as making sure the vaccine gets distributed to poorer countries globally, this organisation seems to be far more important for achieving that than the EU: COVAX









						Covax: How many Covid vaccines have the US and the other G7 countries pledged?
					

As the US doubles its donation pledge, here's a look at how the Covax vaccine scheme is progressing.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This lot remind me of that Comical Ali dude who refused to accept that there were American tanks in Iraq when there was one in the picture behind him



I’m often fondly reminded when reading some posters contributions on Brexit threads of some of the most ardent U.K. supporters of the old Soviet Union. Their first line would normally be to defend any issue that the Soviet Union engaged in whilst criticising the west. Occasionally when on learning that in fact sections of the leadership of the Soviet Union had in fact had a period of reflection and self criticism , ( normally blame would fall on failure on a rogue production plant or industry not meeting set targets , rather than the system its self) the line would then have to change. The new line would admit those faults but with the important caveat that whatever leverage the west actually might have achieved it had also failed and more importantly in a way  the west failed worse because of its insidious nature.


----------



## bimble (Feb 18, 2021)

I don’t know what changes he is on about but it’s not impossible that the Eu will have to do some things differently to avoid collapse if things go well here (if we don’t become a cautionary tale) and more countries have campaigns to leave.








						Macron: EU must reform or face Frexit
					

The presidential candidate says he will not let down French people demanding changes to the EU.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## kabbes (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know what changes he is on about but it’s not impossible that the Eu will have to do some things differently to avoid collapse if things go well here (if we don’t become a cautionary tale) and more countries have campaigns to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He’s changed his tune


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2021)

bimble said:


> I don’t know what changes he is on about but it’s not impossible that the Eu will have to do some things differently to avoid collapse if things go well here (if we don’t become a cautionary tale) and more countries have campaigns to leave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That video is actually from 2017 . Macron had faced populist oppositional candidates from both left and right , Melenchon and Le Penn who were anti EU.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 18, 2021)

So a Tory group has asked that we 'restart Brexit talks' because the UK is now less safe and less secure. 

So much for Boris' brilliant oven-ready deal. 









						Restart Brexit talks because UK is ‘less safe and less secure’, Tory group tells Boris Johnson
					

‘Every day that passes is storing up problems ... the government cannot simply cross its fingers and hope’




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2021)

Maggot said:


> So a Tory group has asked that we 'restart Brexit talks' because the UK is now less safe and less secure.
> 
> So much for Boris' brilliant oven-ready deal.
> 
> ...


Farcical.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Indeed - but again not a problem of Brexit in general but in the tory implementation of it.

And yes these are teething problems but you'd think they'd have been able to get it right with four and a half fucking years to prepare for it.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 18, 2021)

Here’s a benefit for the benefits of Brexit thread which was closed:

Fewer Irish lorries on British roads, as ferry companies scramble to offer direct-to-continent services for Irish hauliers, as using the UK as a transit route becomes a lot less atttractive due to the paperwork. Those lorries that transited the UK brought no benefits to the UK economy aside from an occasional Burger King purchase or whatever, yet contributed to congestion, collisions, pollution and damage on the road network.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 18, 2021)

Took me two days to think of that.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Didn't kabbes say it in the ill fated (but which is not to be mentioned) Brexit benefits thread? 


(sorry  and it is a good one)


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 18, 2021)

(((Yorkie sales)))


----------



## TopCat (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Didn't kabbes say it in the ill fated (but which is not to be mentioned) Brexit benefits thread?
> 
> 
> (sorry  and it is a good one)


It’s been mentioned several times on this thread. But discounted, ridiculed, labelled not a benefit, can’t be measured in increased Waitrose food budgets.


----------



## agricola (Feb 18, 2021)

Maggot said:


> So a Tory group has asked that we 'restart Brexit talks' because the UK is now less safe and less secure.
> 
> So much for Boris' brilliant oven-ready deal.
> 
> ...



TBF calling that "a Tory group" is a bit of a stretch; "group of former Tories" would have been more accurate.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 18, 2021)

agricola said:


> TBF calling that "a Tory group" is a bit of a stretch; "group of former Tories" would have been more accurate.


Eh? They are still tories.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Didn't kabbes say it in the ill fated (but which is not to be mentioned) Brexit benefits thread?
> 
> 
> (sorry  and it is a good one)


It wasn't only mentioned in the context of Angelsea and not by kabbes


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Maggot said:


> It wasn't only mentioned in the context of Angelsea and not by kabbes


Well apart from that I was close


----------



## Maggot (Feb 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I bet it was a pre recording and that the man was at the front door of Waitrose with two trollys.





TopCat said:


> Or do you mean remain riot boy who predicted insurrection by Waitrose customers?





TopCat said:


> Perhaps some will never accept brexit benefits unless they can weigh them at the Waitrose cheese counter.





TopCat said:


> It’s been mentioned several times on this thread. But discounted, ridiculed, labelled not a benefit, can’t be measured in increased Waitrose food budgets.


Are you being sponsored by Waitrose?


----------



## Raheem (Feb 18, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Are you being sponsored by Waitrose?


Asda, but he's a rebel.


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Feb 18, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Asda, but he's a rebel.


taking back control from walmart!!!
e2a: pretty sure s/he is a LIDL/ALDi customer on the old kent road (so am I)


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

Feeling particularly smug here because my shopping gets delivered by Morrisons


----------



## gosub (Feb 18, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Indeed - but again not a problem of Brexit in general but in the tory implementation of it.
> 
> And yes these are teething problems but you'd think they'd have been able to get it right with four and a half fucking years to prepare for it.



Except people didn't, politicians did and they squandered the time


----------



## Flavour (Feb 18, 2021)

As an aside I find this whole character definition based on supermarket of choice thing to be really weird.


----------



## Supine (Feb 18, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Are you being sponsored by Waitrose?



Artisan farm shop shopper with class guilt issues


----------



## editor (Feb 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s been mentioned several times on this thread. But discounted, ridiculed, labelled not a benefit, can’t be measured in increased Waitrose food budgets.


What is is with you and Waitrose?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> As an aside I find this whole character definition based on supermarket of choice thing to be really weird.


What about people who self identify with a supermarket chain though; ethos, range of items, niche goods, value etc?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 18, 2021)

It's a whole ignored dimension of in-depth Brexit voter analysis.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 19, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Didn't kabbes say it in the ill fated (but which is not to be mentioned) Brexit benefits thread?
> 
> 
> (sorry  and it is a good one)


You’re right, I did.  Somebody posted a picture labelled “we’ve disappeared” showing the new ferry routes and I noted that this is a benefit not a negative.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What about people who self identify with a supermarket chain though; ethos, range of items, niche goods, value etc?



I feel deeply sorry for such people


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

It’s easier to shoplift in Waitrose than Aldi.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I feel deeply sorry for such people


I am like this with Lidl.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It’s easier to shoplift in Waitrose than Aldi.


Aldi is piss easy so I will have to try Waitrose. Thanks for the heads up.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Does this mean we'll have to go to, _gulp... _the _provinces_ daaaahling?



Considering the pride in which the government has taken over how much soft power the UK has in both the EU and developing countries over the years it's not a good look.









						The UK’s soft power challenge | British Council
					

The UK’s soft power pre-eminence is vital for its post-Brexit future, but increasingly being challenged. Insight looks at the latest evidence.




					www.britishcouncil.org


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Does this mean we'll have to go to, _gulp... _the _provinces_ daaaahling?



Of course not .. that was where they voted Leave .. they simply _don't deserve _culture.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Feb 19, 2021)

It's fascinating to read these threads, it's like a switch was flipped on 1st January and automatically any problems with brexit are now solely dismissed as middle class fantasy. 

I'd just like to discuss actual effects of this shit rather than descend into strawman Waitrose Vs Racists circlejerking.

Fuck it, I'm out, threads going on ignore.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> It's fascinating to read these threads, it's like a switch was flipped on 1st January and automatically any problems with brexit are now solely dismissed as middle class fantasy.
> 
> I'd just like to discuss actual effects of this shit rather than descend into strawman Waitrose Vs Racists circlejerking.
> 
> Fuck it, I'm out, threads going on ignore.


Good, we can start the proper discussion now


----------



## two sheds (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Good, we can start the proper discussion now


No, the rest of us are still here


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Brexit was always going to require leaving the customs union otherwise it would be “brexit in name only” & worse than staying in because the UK would be rule takers without a seat at the table to help to make the rules. That is not opinion that is fact.

Anybody who had worked in transport including myself knew perfectly well from the start that leaving the customs union/single market would require a return to customs clearance. There are many strands to customs clearance depending on what you are importing & exporting. Vat must be paid. Every entry must be correct or the whole lot is thrown back at you & the truck goes nowhere. To do this work small companies must pay for the services of a customs clearance service provider & large companies must set up new or enlarge their existing customs clearance office facility.

While we were EU members only 30% of our imports & exports needed customs clearance ie rest of world. The rest of it was to or from EU destinations. Customs clearance work is boring & requires absolute accuracy. Slap dash people need not apply. Going from one to the other overnight ie 30% to 100% customs clearance with little preparation for ideological reasons was always going to cause major problems.

The government cannot have been so stupid as not to realise this. They would have been fully advised anyway. This is people against parliament though so get brexit done & fuck everything else. The remainer handwringing showbiz luvvies will get not one jot of sympathy from angry shouty brexity 50 something ex punks will they? 

No sympathy either from multi millionaire rock aristocracy aka rock dinosaur has beens like Roger Daltry. ”Fuck me we toured Europe ok in the 60s wiv our Strats & Marshalls & the whole band stuffed in the back of a knackered old Ford Thames van” etc blah !

Reality is when people made redundant from reasonably good jobs & also school leavers with a few exam results are trained to work in both public & private sector customs clearance things will improve & bands can tour again. What is undeniable is that brexit has brought a whole new raft of costs due to a change from a system that was designed partly by Thatcher to remove those costs.

I recall loading my truck pre customs union at a poultry factory. I was loading bales of feathers for export to Holland. The load was put on quick enough. Then I sat at that stinking shit hole for another 4 hours waiting for the vet to arrive to arrive to sign a bit of paper. Welcome back to all that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Brexit was always going to require leaving the customs union otherwise it would be “brexit in name only” & worse than staying in because the UK would be rule takers without a seat at the table to help to make the rules. That is not opinion that is fact.
> 
> Anybody who had worked in transport including myself knew perfectly well from the start that leaving the customs union/single market would require a return to customs clearance. There are many strands to customs clearance depending on what you are importing & exporting. Vat must be paid. Every entry must be correct or the whole lot is thrown back at you & the truck goes nowhere. To do this work small companies must pay for the services of a customs clearance service provider & large companies must set up new or enlarge their existing customs clearance office facility.
> 
> ...


The UK are still rule takers unless you think leaving at midnight Brussels time was Johnson's idea and if you haven't noticed who is inflicting what upon who


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The UK are still rule takers unless you think leaving at midnight Brussels time was Johnson's idea and if you haven't noticed who is inflicting what upon who


Well of course. Doing any sort of “free” trade deal with the massively larger entity of the EU was never going to favour the UK. After threatening to leave with no deal over fishing Johnson sold the UK fishing community down the river & out to sea for example. Average leave voters tired of the whole thing who have not really noticed any difference as the supermarket shelves have remained full will not really notice this I doubt. I wonder if they would have noticed if we had stayed in the customs union/single market ?


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> The government cannot have been so stupid as not to realise this. They would have been fully advised anyway. This is people against parliament though so get brexit done & fuck everything else.



Do you mean the government is against parliament & on the same side as ‘the people’ and that’s why they didn’t prepare ? I think the other explanation, ie stupidity, is more viable.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Well of course. Doing any sort of “free” trade deal with the massively larger entity of the EU was never going to favour the UK. After threatening to leave with no deal over fishing Johnson sold the UK fishing community down the river & out to sea for example. Average leave voters tired of the whole thing who have not really noticed any difference as the supermarket shelves have remained full will not really notice this I doubt. I wonder if they would have noticed if we had stayed in the customs union/single market ?


Oh they've noticed something in the six counties


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> It's fascinating to read these threads, it's like a switch was flipped on 1st January and automatically any problems with brexit are now solely dismissed as middle class fantasy. I'd just like to discuss actual effects of this shit rather than descend into strawman Waitrose Vs Racists circlejerking. Fuck it, I'm out, threads going on ignore.




GOOD
Go home to waitrose and take your snide liberal accusations of racism with you


seriously though thats why the trolling is so shit - it kills threads and stops people from engaging


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 19, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That more or less sums up the situation at the moment. They panicked and signed an absurd deal that doesn't work. Various things will remain fucked up until they fix it. And fixing it will inevitably involve closer alignment with the EU on various matters. And the fact that we're in a pandemic is rather masking the extent of the fuck up at the moment, while it also contributed massively to allowing the fuck up to happen with minimal democratic scrutiny.


I don't think the effect of covid on it's own can be overstated. I guess the proof will be looking at the effects on the arts across europe in a year's time. Don't think many industries could deal with 2 years with no income.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2021)

Isn't there supposed to be a special thread just for discussion of how Brexit has affected/will affect touring musicians and other performers?

If all that discussion is going to go on here, maybe that thread can be closed, just like the benefits of Brexit one was...


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> What about people who self identify with a supermarket chain though; ethos, range of items, niche goods, value etc?


I say live and let live, although there's people on the internet who say you can only call yourself a supermarket if you were born with aisles.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Isn't there supposed to be a special thread just for discussion of how Brexit has affected/will affect touring musicians and other performers?
> 
> If all that discussion is going to go on here, maybe that thread can be closed, just like the benefits of Brexit one was...


Posts moved here: Brexit - impact on musicians, touring and the music/events industry


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 255073
> GOOD
> Go home to waitrose and take your snide liberal accusations of racism with you
> 
> ...



Theres no point trying to talk about the effects of brexit though is there. Everyone seems agreed there’s not going to be any particular good news for between 10-50 years and talk about any bad news impacts is obvs just Waitrose whining, so thread should be closed & reopened in a decade or so.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh they've noticed something in the six counties


The ”average leave voter” I referred to lives in England not NI. Apologies for sounding parochial. No offence taken or given I would hope ?


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

A government paid for advert linking to this just appeared on my twitter, these are the new rules, the points & salary based system, that they need to follow if a business wants to employ people from outside the UK.








						New points-based immigration system
					

Helping employers understand the new points-based immigration system




					pbisemployers.campaign.gov.uk
				




I think this is where, once covid is over and things re-open, we’ll start to notice what’s changed more, though maybe only apparent in big cities.


I think there’s going to be a lot of ‘shortage occupations’.


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## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Theres no point trying to talk about the effects of brexit though is there. Everyone seems agreed there’s not going to be any particular good news for between 10-50 years and talk about any bad news impacts is obvs just Waitrose whining, so thread should be closed & reopened in a decade or so.


Going back and reading the Lexit What Is To Be Done thread (2017) there was a seemingly unanimous recognition by all that Brexit would create 'problems' that would at the minimum require work to defend existing positions/rights against roll backs. Beyond that there was a sense of urgent work to reoccupy the space that the right had got a boost from via Brexit. 
 That talk seems to have been replaced with just saying STOP MOANING


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Everyone seems agreed there’s not going to be any particular good news for between 10-50 years


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> The ”average leave voter” I referred to lives in England not NI. Apologies for sounding parochial. No offence taken or given I would hope ?


why? Are leave voters in Wales, Scotland or the six counties above or below average?


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> why? Are leave voters in Wales, Scotland or the six counties above or below average?


The simple answer would be that I have no clue what you are fucking on about but the fun answer to keep this exchange going would be would be that you would need to ask the average leave voters in Wales Scotland or NI. I have no access to those voters as I live in south east England so you will have to ask them for me. Phone a few & post up their answers.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> The simple answer would be that I have no clue what you are fucking on about but the fun answer to keep this exchange going would be would be that you would need to ask the average leave voters in Wales Scotland or NI. I have no access to those voters as I live in south east England so you will have to ask them for me. Phone a few & post up their answers.


How did you identify average leave voters? How would I know them? To avoid my reinventing the wheel I'd be grateful if you could share your method.


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## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> A government paid for advert linking to this just appeared on my twitter, these are the new rules, the points & salary based system, that they need to follow if a business wants to employ people from outside the UK.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If I'm reading it right, I suspect those new rules might well kill off some pubs who have continually struggled for staff.

My local has been staffed (and run) almost exclusively by non-UK workers for over a decade - something I think adds to the pub's atmosphere.


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Do you mean the government is against parliament & on the same side as ‘the people’ and that’s why they didn’t prepare ? I think the other explanation, ie stupidity, is more viable.


Once the deal was done & the nature of it known preparing & putting all the systems & personnel in place & testing it would have required an extension of the transition period for at least 2 years. The EU offered this. That going from one to the other overnight would cause chaos was so obvious even the totally stupid would have known. After over 4 years of argument the government decided & in fact campaigned for election on leaving completely at the end of 2020 as an ideological position whatever the economic cost.

Parliament & the judiciary working against the people was a position taken by the popular right wing press. Johnson‘s advisors like Cummins etc based the whole “get brexit done” campaign on it I think.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> After over 4 years of argument the government decided & in fact campaigned for election on leaving completely at the end of 2020 as an ideological position whatever the economic cost.


You have not a clue what they campaigned on. We left the eu not in December 2020 but at the end of January 2020. The transitional period is what they refused to extend. And the deadline for that was in June last year, rather after the election


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> How did you identify average leave voters? How would I know them? To avoid my reinventing the wheel I'd be grateful if you could share your method.


I live in an over 70% leave voting area. I know the reasons people I know voted leave. I have no reason to suspect leave voters in other areas of England with very high leave voting percentages would think differently to them. I have visited most of those areas in my time.

What got the leave vote just over the line was those very high over 70% leave votes in areas of England outside the largest cities imo. Those would have been the average leave voters I referred to. I guess you live in London & may not be familiar with the areas of England I refer to. If you are then you will know perfectly well the average leave voters I refer to. Where I live & in similar areas there is indeed no discernible difference pre or post brexit. Life goes on as it always did.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> My local has been staffed (and run) almost exclusively by non-UK workers for over a decade - something I think adds to the pub's atmosphere.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You have not a clue what they campaigned on. We left the eu not in December 2020 but at the end of January 2020. The transitional period is what they refused to extend. And the deadline for that was in June last year, rather after the election


They campaigned to get brexit done. That was the simple message that people voted for after years of argument. Until the end of 2020 the transition period mirrored EU membership. Nothing changed visibly until then. The EU indeed offered to extend the transition period & needed an answer by June 2020. They got their answer due to the ideological position of the current government.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I live in an over 70% leave voting area. I know the reasons people I know voted leave. I have no reason to suspect leave voters in other areas of England with very high leave voting percentages would think differently to them. I have visited most of those areas in my time.
> 
> What got the leave vote just over the line was those very high over 70% leave votes in areas of England outside the largest cities imo. Those would have been the average leave voters I referred to. I guess you live in London & may not be familiar with the areas of England I refer to. If you are then you will know perfectly well the average leave voters I refer to. Where I live & in similar areas there is indeed no discernible difference pre or post brexit. Life goes on as it always did.


So you just mean leave voters, the average an extraneous description designed to beguile the unwary


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> They campaigned to get brexit done. That was the simple message that people voted for after years of argument. Until the end of 2020 the transition period mirrored EU membership. Nothing changed visibly until then. The EU indeed offered to extend the transition period & needed an answer by June 2020. They got their answer due to the ideological position of the current government.


They campaigned as you say to gbd. They specified leaving the EU in January 2020. There is no need in future to repeat to me what I've said to you.


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> So you just mean leave voters, the average an extraneous description designed to beguile the unwary


I guess you live in a remain voting area of London so you will know average remain voters. I only know average leave voters. Nobody I know except me voted remain. The average leave voters I know would describe themselves as average. I because I asked them & to call yourself unwary is simply disingenuous.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> I guess you live in a remain voting area of London so you will know average remain voters. I only know average leave voters. Nobody I know except me voted remain. The average leave voters I know would describe themselves as average. I because I asked them & to call yourself unwary is simply disingenuous.


have you met any leave voters who wouldn't (in your belief) describe themselves as average or similar, or who haven't when asked described themselves as such? Is it in fact a meaningful description?


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They campaigned as you say to gbd. They specified leaving the EU in January 2020. There is no need in future to repeat to me what I've said to you.


The government agreed to a transition period. At the start of this exchange you might observe I was referring to how things looked & felt & there was no discernible difference around where I lived so things felt exactly like EU membership until the end of 2020 when those directly affected ie though their work found things changed massively overnight but to others not directly affected things look no different.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> If I'm reading it right, I suspect those new rules might well kill off some pubs who have continually struggled for staff.
> 
> My local has been staffed (and run) almost exclusively by non-UK workers for over a decade - something I think adds to the pub's atmosphere.


Either a whole bunch of things that depended on workers from the Eu will be killed off by the new immigration system, or there’ll soon be a massive long list of exceptions (‘shortage occupations’, like fruit & veg picker is already a special case, others will join maybe including barrista, bar staff etc where employers will not have to meet these rules to get non Brit workers), or else jobs and incomes for British people will rise as businesses will find a way to adjust without migrant labour lowering wages.
 The last ones the hope isn’t it, i think the first two more likely.


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> have you met any leave voters who wouldn't (in your belief) describe themselves as average or similar, or who haven't when asked described themselves as such? Is it in fact a meaningful description?


No so yes average leave voter is a meaningful description.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> No so yes average leave voter is a meaningful description.


and the meaning it conveys is...


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## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Either a whole bunch of things that depended on workers from the Eu will be killed off by the new immigration system, or there’ll soon be a massive long list of exceptions (‘shortage occupations’, like fruit & veg picker is already a special case, others will join maybe including barrista, bar staff etc where employers will not have to meet these rules to get non Brit workers), or else jobs and incomes for British people will rise as businesses will find a way to adjust without migrant labour lowering wages.
> The last ones the hope isn’t it, i think the first two more likely.


I'd love it if workers start getting guaranteed better wages, but I imagine the most likely outcome will be Brexit making no difference at all and some pubs/cafes struggling to keep afloat or closing altogether  because of staff shortages.


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## BobDavis (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> and the meaning it conveys is...


That the leave voters I know & those that live in similar very high percentage leave voting areas are average leave voters.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

I think lots of businesses closing over the coming year or 3 is the most likely result of the new immigration system too. Whether it was covid or brexit that killed them won’t ever be clear with things like pubs cafes hotels etc unless they go down shouting about what the problem is in some concerted way.
Don’t know if I’ve ever bought a takeaway coffee off a British person, in London. Out here nobody sells such a thing so we won’t notice any change.


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## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think lots of businesses closing over the coming year or 3 is the most likely result of the new immigration system too.


Maybe...but as likely the government will allow some poorer people to come in too.
Via the Pacific/CANZUK trade deal perhaps? 
How many people are coming from Hong Kong? I read this week that as well as eligible BNO passport holders (who had to be born before handover - 1997 IIRC) younger people from HK are putting in asylum claims.
Totally within the governments ability to grant temporary guest worker visas, etc. - less rights than previously within the EU for those workers of course.
Think that'll happen in time


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## Spymaster (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think lots of businesses closing over the coming year or 3 is the most likely result of the new immigration system too.


The other side of this of course is that the field has been levelled for non-EU citizens. An Indian is now just as able to work here as a German. As a result skill shortages (especially in areas like tech and analytics) will be filled. This is a huge win for those types of businesses.


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## The39thStep (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> I think lots of businesses closing over the coming year or 3 is the most likely result of the new immigration system too. Whether it was covid or brexit that killed them won’t ever be clear with things like pubs cafes hotels etc unless they go down shouting about what the problem is in some concerted way.
> *Don’t know if I’ve ever bought a takeaway coffee off a British person, in London. *Out here nobody sells such a thing so we won’t notice any change.



This is the very point this lady was trying to make about the effects of Brexit


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## littlebabyjesus (Feb 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The other side of this of course is that the field has been levelled for non-EU citizens. An Indian is now just as able to work here as a German. As a result skill shortages (especially in areas like tech and analytics) will be filled. This is a huge win for those types of businesses.


How does that work? How does imposing more restrictions on immigration help fill jobs?

Why not impose an internal passport system while we're at it, Soviet Union/Cuba-style? It would level the playing field so that people wanting to work in London coming from, say, Yorkshire, no longer have an unfair advantage over non-Brits. That would make it even easier to fill skill shortages.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The other side of this of course is that the field has been levelled for non-EU citizens. An Indian is now just as able to work here as a German. As a result skill shortages (especially in areas like tech and analytics) will be filled. This is a huge win for those types of businesses.


How did Eu membership stop tech & analytics jobs being filled?


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This is the very point this lady was trying to make about the effects of Brexit



This is funny cos I’m exactly like that lady, same weird red outfit and everything. But no, she claims that British people don’t want those jobs, I didn’t say that, I just think now that foreigners can only get a job here if it pays over £26,500 it’s likely there will be (many) businesses who go bust as a result.


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## agricola (Feb 19, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Eh? They are still tories.



both Grieve and Lidington are former Tory MPs, and Grieve actually stood against a Tory candidate in 2019


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## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> The other side of this of course is that the field has been levelled for non-EU citizens. An Indian is now just as able to work here as a German. As a result skill shortages (especially in areas like tech and analytics) will be filled. This is a huge win for those types of businesses.


in theory both as able and as unable, though as you say, well paid jobs above the 26k threshold _should_ be more diverse in terms of foreign workers, however the points based system is not the meritocracy it might seem - this has a good overview of how bias remains and it continues to favour certain workers over others:








						Points-based immigration was meant to reduce racial bias. It doesn't | Justin Gest
					

While points-based systems are designed to reduce racial bias, they reproduce this bias in more subtle ways




					www.theguardian.com
				




no migration policy is without its pitfalls
what i particularly dislike about this one is its classist nature


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Universities are going to be hit hard: 



> *Huge fee hikes for EU students who want to study art in the UK come into force from September*
> *Visa issues and increased red tape could also deter European Union applicants, warn university leaders*
> 
> 
> ...


Rest of the article (as it's on a paywall)


> The issue of visas for incoming EU students is also a concern. According to the British Council website, “if you [re: EU candidates] plan to arrive in the UK from 1 January 2021 onwards, you will need to apply for a student visa if you are studying a course which is longer than six months in length.” This application, which costs £348, needs to be accepted before arrival in the UK (Irish nationals living in the UK will continue to be eligible for home fee status and do not require visas).
> 
> The spokeswoman for Goldsmiths says: “We’ve been working closely with students, school counsellors, agents, advisers and partners across the EU over the past four years to ensure that everyone has the correct information and advice to support prospective students in making an informed decision, including changes to immigration status of students from 2021.” Fees for its BA Fine Art/History of Art courses will increase for EU applicants from £9,250 (home status) to £23,870 (international).
> 
> ...












						Huge fee hikes for EU students who want to study art in the UK come into force from September
					

Visa issues and increased red tape could also deter European Union applicants, warn university leaders



					www.theartnewspaper.com


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## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Universities are going to be hit hard:
> 
> 
> Rest of the article (as it's on a paywall)
> ...


my sister was looking into studying in Denmark as a foreign student FOR FREE

it doesnt have to be this way, obviously


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## Flavour (Feb 19, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> This is the very point this lady was trying to make about the effects of Brexit



Yeah I mean, the sandwiches might be the same if it were someone from the North-east of England serving them in London, but it just wouldn't have the same atmosphere.


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## mojo pixy (Feb 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> no migration policy is without its pitfalls
> what i particularly dislike about this one is its classist nature



In basic terms though, either immigration brings in wealth, or it brings in labour. If it brings in _labour_, is that not implicitly about providing a stock of cheap and easily-dominated (also non-unionized) foreign labour, which undercuts wages and conditions so everyone has to put up with worse? Or is that an unintended consequence?

Not to mention encouraging eg. nurses and doctors to come so we don't have to pay to train our own (but causing other countries to lose theirs)

No immigration policy is there to support the working class (here or overseas), is it? It's about supporting employers and business owners to save money. The ''you'll never get English people doing those jobs'' attitude is all by itself tacit admission that foreigners are worth less than we are and there are jobs 'they' will do that 'we' won't do.

Easier to just dismiss the whole argument as racist or xenophobic (which you haven't done, but we all know people do)

Bars and care homes and fields full of foreign workers are not a victory for our inclusive immigration policy, but a failure of our entire society IMO.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Bars and care homes and fields full of foreign workers are not a victory for our inclusive immigration policy, but a failure of our entire society IMO.


Totally agree with this. But nobody is going to address the failure of our entire society in a hurry they’ll just expand things like this to plug the holes. 








						Up to 30,000 workers to help reap 2021 harvest
					

The number of workers permitted to travel to the UK to pick and package fruit and vegetables will be increased for next year’s harvest, the government has announced today (22 December).




					www.gov.uk


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## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Totally agree with this. But nobody is going to address the failure of our entire society in a hurry they’ll just expand things like this to plug the holes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


when this came up before it was said that these workers will have less rights than previously already poorly treated EU seasonal workers - would be worth finding out how exactly, I cant remember what was said before.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> when this came up before it was said that these workers will have less rights than previously already poorly treated EU seasonal workers - would be worth finding out how exactly, I cant remember what was said before.


Only Waitrose twats care about things like that though.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


>


Ok, so its absurd to ask for 'concrete benefits' a couple of months in but 10 years wait is daft too - what's a good timeframe for you ?


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## kabbes (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Only Waitrose twats care about things like that though.


I wouldn’t get too worked up about one single poster that is obsessed with Waitrose.  For what it’s worth, I shop at Waitrose in any case.


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## Supine (Feb 19, 2021)

The Express and a Brixiteer MEP think the deal is shit lol.









						'Boris is asleep on the job!' Brexit fury as EU bans UK shellfish, eggs, potatoes and meat
					

BREXITEER Ben Habib has accused Boris Johnson of being "asleep on the job" in a blistering attack after it was revealed a large number of agricultural exporters are currently unable to get their products into Europe as a result of the post-Brexit trade deal.




					www.express.co.uk


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Ok, so its absurd to ask for 'concrete benefits' a couple of months in but 10 years wait is daft too - what's a good timeframe for you ?



You were given a concrete benefit just six weeks in, the speedy vaccination rollout which saves lives, all of us here who’s parents are over 70 should now have had it if they live in the U.K. and it seems now will not die from it. That is not true if your parents live in the EU, which is just fucking awful as I would for one would not feel that cheap DJ mixers are a greater benefit than my mum being alive.


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## kabbes (Feb 19, 2021)

One thing I really can’t understand is hard-core fundamentalist Brexiteers now complaining that their exporting to Europe has got harder.  There are many complex facets to Brexit but on this one, I have to wonder wtf they expected.


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You were given a concrete benefit just six weeks in, the speedy vaccination rollout which saves lives, all of us here who’s parents are over 70 should now have had it if they live in the U.K. and it seems now will not die from it. That is not true if your parents live in the EU, which is just fucking awful as I would for one would not feel that cheap DJ mixers are a greater benefit than my mum being alive.


This again? It was not brexit wot did it, in any real concrete way, as has been gone over about 17 times already.
And yeah my parents over there are still waiting for any news about their vaccines and it is shit.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You were given a concrete benefit just six weeks in, the speedy vaccination rollout which saves lives, all of us here who’s parents are over 70 should now have had it if they live in the U.K. and it seems now will not die from it. That is not true if your parents live in the EU, which is just fucking awful as I would for one would not feel that cheap DJ mixers are a greater benefit than my mum being alive.


The speedy vaccination roll out was not directly due to Brexit though, was it? That is a false claim.









						FactCheck: Brexit did not speed up UK vaccine authorisation
					

In fact, the UK regulator used EU law to authorise the jab.




					www.channel4.com
				












						Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact
					

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.




					fullfact.org


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> You were given a concrete benefit just six weeks in, the speedy vaccination rollout which saves lives, all of us here who’s parents are over 70 should now have had it if they live in the U.K. and it seems now will not die from it. That is not true if your parents live in the EU, which is just fucking awful as I would for one would not feel that cheap DJ mixers are a greater benefit than my mum being alive.


It's just that every so often the Tory monkeys banging away at typewriters manage to hit out quite by chance a coherent sentence. Pity well over a hundred thousand people have died because of their incompetence


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's just that every so often the Tory monkeys banging away at typewriters manage to hit out quite by chance a coherent sentence. Pity well over a hundred thousand people have died because of their incompetence



All the government really did right was hire some actual clever people to handle vaccine procurement, instead of some bunch of spiv consulatants.

And they only did that because they know, and have always known, that the private sector is a rancid, bloated carcass of a thing that should not be trusted when political careers are at stake.


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## kabbes (Feb 19, 2021)

It’s like this conversation didn’t already just happen a few pages ago


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## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

But Boris Johnson said it was brexit that saved your mum from dying of covid so it must be true, regardless.


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## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


>


Innit. I think it’s just the usual self entitlement thinking they speak for a majority, always.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

And we’re back to the, “We could have done it anyway” line, happily ignoring that _they_ didn’t.

Which is why this thread should be shut down too as anything other than Spymaster’s crying babies is futile.

I hope your parents get it soon bimble, my step mum’s aunt ( whom I have never met) died from Covid last week in Arnhem, she was late 80’s and hadn’t had it.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 19, 2021)

I’ll say it again then. It seems inconceivable to me that in the universe in which Remain had won and Cameron and Osborne had stayed on, the result would have been anything other than an attempt to double-down on “European-ness” and build on joint European ventures. As such, talking about what would have been “legally possible” is really missing the point.  It’s about what is _politically_ possible.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's just that every so often the Tory monkeys banging away at typewriters manage to hit out quite by chance a coherent sentence. Pity well over a hundred thousand people have died because of their incompetence



Sure, yet the EU didn’t even bring the monkeys in to the typing pool.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> If I'm reading it right, I suspect those new rules might well kill off some pubs who have continually struggled for staff.
> 
> My local has been staffed (and run) almost exclusively by non-UK workers for over a decade - something I think adds to the pub's atmosphere.


Sadly it’s workers from abroad who are more likely to work for minimum wage and not be in a union. Employers inc our local know this.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> The speedy vaccination roll out was not directly due to Brexit though, was it? That is a false claim.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Inside the EU we _could _have gone it alone, but we would not have done so, therefore your claim is moot, at best.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I'd love it if workers start getting guaranteed better wages, but I imagine the most likely outcome will be Brexit making no difference at all and some pubs/cafes struggling to keep afloat or closing altogether  because of staff shortages.


We are about to have up to two million extra unemployed. Plenty of people for jobs. No where will close unless their economic model relies on paying absolute minimum.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Inside the EU we _could _have gone it alone, but we would not have done so, therefore your claim is moot, at best.


OK. Denial it is.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We are about to have up to two million extra unemployed. Plenty of people for jobs. No where will close unless their economic model relies on paying absolute minimum.


I wish I shared your glowing confidence.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> OK. Denial it is.



Decent of you to admit it.


----------



## Supine (Feb 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We are about to have up to two million extra unemployed. Plenty of people for jobs. No where will close unless their economic model relies on paying absolute minimum.



Unless they work in factories, warehouses, trucking firms etc in which case the jobs are moving to the EU.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Sure, yet the EU didn’t even bring the monkeys in to the typing pool.


They treat their typewriters with more respect there


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2021)

ska invita said:


> when this came up before it was said that these workers will have less rights than previously already poorly treated EU seasonal workers - would be worth finding out how exactly, I cant remember what was said before.



says the visa is for 6 months, so no right to settle / bring family (some would see this as a good thing)

not clear what basis access to health care would be on in the event of illness / accident

also not clear what happens if worker falls out with employer (e.g.  for complaining about working conditions / health + safety and so on) or if job ends earlier than expected

not clear whether minimum wage applies and whether there's any protection from most of that being held back as 'payment' for sub-standard accommodation


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> But Boris Johnson said it was brexit that saved your mum from dying of covid so it must be true, regardless.


Bit disappointed, I thought we had a fairly sensible discussion about this yesterday and  came to agreement over this. But now it seems to be back to square one. This is why people get sick of talking about it sensibly and just start name calling.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Decent of you to admit it.


Sigh. I've just shown you several links that directly contradict your stirring speech about Brexit being directly responsible for saving lives. Your subsequent whataboutery isn't going to stop your claim continuing to be completely false. 









						Vaccine approval isn’t quicker because of Brexit - Full Fact
					

The MHRA could have given the Pfizer vaccine the same emergency approval when the UK was in the EU.




					fullfact.org
				












						FactCheck: Brexit did not speed up UK vaccine authorisation
					

In fact, the UK regulator used EU law to authorise the jab.




					www.channel4.com
				






> But the fact that the UK is the first country in the world to approve this vaccine has got *nothing directly to do with Brexit*.











						UK vaccine approval: Did Brexit speed up the process?
					

There have been claims that Brexit allowed the UK to approve a vaccine quicker than the EU, but is that correct?



					www.bbc.co.uk
				












						FactCheck: Was the UK able to approve the Pfizer vaccine before the EU because of Brexit?
					

The head of the UK regulator who approved the Pfizer vaccine said its progress was “totally dependent” on the “rolling review” approach it took.




					www.thejournal.ie


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Only Waitrose twats care about things like that though.


Waitrose twats, certainly the ones that come to mind here, don’t join trade unions, are not socialists and give not a crumb of sourdough fucks for the working classes.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Bit disappointed, I thought we had a fairly sensible discussion about this yesterday and  came to agreement over this. But now it seems to be back to square one. This is why people get sick of talking about it sensibly and just start name calling.


It's not helped when people start employing emotive language to support a completely false claim though (" cheap DJ mixers are a greater benefit than my mum being alive. ")


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I wish I shared your glowing confidence.


Maybe you should campaign to remove the minimum wage? Would that not really help the hospitality industries?


----------



## bimble (Feb 19, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Bit disappointed, I thought we had a fairly sensible discussion about this yesterday and  came to agreement over this. But now it seems to be back to square one. This is why people get sick of talking about it sensibly and just start name calling.


Yep. Sod it im going to stick the thread on ignore too, it’s just pointless agro from people who aren’t my enemies.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Sigh. I've just shown you several links that directly contradict your stirring speech about Brexit being directly responsible for saving lives. Your subsequent whataboutery isn't going to stop your claim continuing to be completely false.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Jeepers, we know. None of which explains why those who followed the EU’s rollout, which the U.K. surely would have done if we had remained in, have vaccinated so few of their citizens and why my step mum’s aunt is now dead.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Maybe you should campaign to remove the minimum wage? Would that not really help the hospitality industries?



It would improve the atmosphere in pubs, get rid of those ghastly British people behind the bar.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> If I'm reading it right, I suspect those new rules might well kill off some pubs who have continually struggled for staff.
> 
> *My local has been staffed (and run) almost exclusively by non-UK workers for over a decade* - something I think adds to the pub's atmosphere.



The thing I find slightly curious about this sort of comment (and I'm picking it as a recent example, rather than having a go at you personally editor) is that there appears to be no interest in asking *why* this pub is staffed and run almost exclusively by non-UK workers. 

The absence of any interest in this question appears to simply accept that this should be automatically be the case, whereas it's is clearly a relatively recent phenomenon.

And the further question is whether it's a positive situation (aside from the possibility that it adds to the pub's atmosphere in some undefined way) that so many pubs and similar businesses are staffed almost exclusively by non-UK staff. What has happened to make this the case, and what has happened to all the UK staff who might once have worked in these places?


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> ....which the U.K. surely would have done if we had remained in....


Pure supposition and unfounded speculation. 

I'm sorry about your your step mum’s aunt, but I'm not sure why you keep bringing her up. 

Anyway, it's clear you're going to ignore the multiple fact checks I've posted up and insist that your hunch is right, so here ends this discussion.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> The thing I find slightly curious about this sort of comment (and I'm picking it as a recent example, rather than having a go at you personally editor) is that there appears to be no interest in asking *why* this pub is staffed and run almost exclusively by non-UK workers.


I've never asked because it doesn't really bother me to be honest. I fact, I rather like the cosmopolitan atmosphere it creates.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> But Boris Johnson said it was brexit that saved your mum from dying of covid so it must be true, regardless.


It seems that you and others are simply taking the position that Boris said it so it *must* be nonsense, TBH


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 19, 2021)

Oh, btw, I ordered some music gadgets from a company in Sweden the other day and got hit with about a third extra cost from duty and handling fees. Just thought I'd mention it as an example of what I've previously said generally things just getting more awkward and expensive.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 19, 2021)

bimble said:


> Yep. Sod it im going to stick the thread on ignore too, it’s just pointless agro from people who aren’t my enemies.


dont do that please, i appreciate the stuff you find to post on here - this is a major news source for me, and im sure for others too


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> Pure supposition and unfounded speculation.




If you are genuinely this politically stunted there is no point in discussing this with you any further, if you are just being disingenuous, same.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It would improve the atmosphere in pubs, get rid of those ghastly British people behind the bar.


It was bizarre when the Ritzy Cinema living wage campaign fundraiser was held in the Albert. The Bar Staff all on minimum wage. No struggle for them.


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I've never asked because it doesn't really bother me to be honest. I fact, I rather like the cosmopolitan atmosphere it creates.


So you're simply not interested in the rest of my post?

the further question is whether it's a positive situation (aside from the possibility that it adds to the pub's atmosphere in some undefined way) that so many pubs and similar businesses are staffed almost exclusively by non-UK staff. What has happened to make this the case, and what has happened to all the UK staff who might once have worked in these places?


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> If you are genuinely this politically stunted...


Moving on from groundless speculation to ad hominens now? Classy.


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> So you're simply not interested in the rest of my post?
> 
> the further question is whether it's a positive situation (aside from the possibility that it adds to the pub's atmosphere in some undefined way) that so many pubs and similar businesses are staffed almost exclusively by non-UK staff. What has happened to make this the case, and what has happened to all the UK staff who might once have worked in these places?


I really don't know the answer to be honest because I don't run a pub or a venue. Maybe it's because they're more likely to accept shitty conditions or zero hour contracts (like most of then do) because they're students/breezing through London/want to be in Brixton/can't find anything else. I really don't know.  Maybe someone here is a boss and can offer their reasons. 

I do know that probably something like 60-70% of the bar staff/sound crew/managers etc in the places where I put on shows are European.


----------



## Supine (Feb 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> It seems that you and others are simply taking the position that Boris said it so it *must* be nonsense, TBH



Seems reasonable


----------



## editor (Feb 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Seems reasonable


"Politician tries to spin the facts to make his party look good"?


----------



## andysays (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I really don't know the answer to be honest because I don't run a pub or a venue. Maybe it's because they're more likely to accept shitty conditions or zero hour contracts (like most of then do) because they're students/breezing through London/want to be in Brixton/can't find anything else. I really don't know.  Maybe someone here is a boss and can offer their reasons.
> 
> I do know that probably something like 60-70% of the bar staff/sound crew/managers etc in the places where I put on shows are European.


Now we're slowly getting somewhere.

But there's still this bit

What has happened to make this the case, and *what has happened to all the UK staff who might once have worked in these places?*

Because the complete absence of any interest in this last aspect is really telling, and seems to me to be illustrative of the still existing lack of any understanding among many Remainers of why many people voted to leave the EU.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> Now we're slowly getting somewhere.
> 
> But there's still this bit
> 
> ...


oh killer point, yeah I definitely remember that time when bar staff weren't people who were travellers or otherwise in a position to accept low wages and casual work contracts, definitely never happened before the EU


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Bit disappointed, I thought we had a fairly sensible discussion about this yesterday and  came to agreement over this. But now it seems to be back to square one. This is why people get sick of talking about it sensibly and just start name calling.


The suggestions made today and yesterday are slightly different. Yesterday, it was that, had the UK been in the EU and opted out of the JPA, vaccine production would have been slower because politics. Today, it is that if the UK had been in the EU it would not have opted out of the JPA.

FWIW, I think today's version makes better sense, but it's just speculation. Maybe we would have opted out, maybe we wouldn't, believe what suits you.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> oh killer point, yeah I definitely remember that time when bar staff weren't people who were travellers or otherwise in a position to accept low wages and casual work contracts, definitely never happened before the EU



Yeah, fuck the low paid British, parochial rather than cosmopolitan atmosphere them cunts being with them. Much better to have some breadline Spanish behind the bar, almost feels like a tapas gaff.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yeah, fuck the low paid British, parochial rather than cosmopolitan atmosphere them cunts being with them. Much better to have some breadline Spanish behind the bar, almost feels like a tapas gaff.


bit rubbish tbh


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 19, 2021)

FridgeMagnet said:


> bit rubbish tbh



Yep. Welcome to Brexit threads.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 19, 2021)

Raheem said:


> FWIW, I think today's version makes better sense, but it's just speculation. Maybe we would have opted out, maybe we wouldn't, believe what suits you.



Do you not think it's _interesting _that not one single EU state, some of which have their own significant vaccine industries, chose to not get involved in the EU JPA?

None of these countries have no experience with vaccines, none of them are indifferent to having a vaccine - and yet every _single _one chose to place their faith in the abilities of a body that had no vaccine procurement experience _whatsoever_, all entirely and absolutely voluntarily. 

Does that not give your Spidey senses not the tiniest little tingle?

I voted remain, I do not believe for one minute that had remain won we would have seen anything other than a political class - Tory, labour, LD - solidly taking that result as an instruction/affirmation to sit at the absolute centre of EU affairs. I think the idea that the UK might not have got involved in the EU vaccine project in a post-remain polity based on purely on the technical merits of an EU Vs UK approach is an utterly ridiculous suggestion - it's frankly a idea that is insulting to the intelligence of anyone, leave or remain, who has the slightest interest in UK politics.

If you want a better understanding of why remain lost, this insulting, ignoring the blindingly obvious, over-arching politics of the EU project approach is as good a reason as any.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 19, 2021)

How are other non-EU European states doing with their vaccination programmes? Are Switzerland and Norway forging ahead, similarly unshackled from the lumbering EU?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 19, 2021)

teuchter said:


> How are other non-EU European states doing with their vaccination programmes? Are Switzerland and Norway forging ahead, similarly unshackled from the lumbering EU?



Norway joined JPA, while Switzerland managed to fuck it up all on its own. Serbia have done well.


----------



## Supine (Feb 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you not think it's _interesting _that not one single EU state, some of which have their own significant vaccine industries, chose to not get involved in the EU JPA?
> 
> None of these countries have no experience with vaccines, none of them are indifferent to having a vaccine - and yet every _single _one chose to place their faith in the abilities of a body that had no vaccine procurement experience _whatsoever_, all entirely and absolutely voluntarily.
> 
> Does that not give your Spidey senses not the tiniest little tingle?



I think the opposite I reckon   

It's a sign that the EU is strong because they are choosing to work through a crisis together and not jump ship because they selfishly have their own vaccine manufacturing capabilities. It's the definition of good practice for a union of nations. 

I think the vaccine procurement thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. They may be a bit behind but not by more than a few weeks and they are paying 1/3 the price. Big picture is the whole of Europe is doing well. Amazingly considering the virus has only just past its first birthday a little while ago.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

editor said:


> I really don't know the answer to be honest because I don't run a pub or a venue. Maybe it's because they're more likely to accept shitty conditions or zero hour contracts (like most of then do) because they're students/breezing through London/want to be in Brixton/can't find anything else. I really don't know.  Maybe someone here is a boss and can offer their reasons.
> 
> I do know that probably something like 60-70% of the bar staff/sound crew/managers etc in the places where I put on shows are European.


We are still European.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Yep. Welcome to Brexit threads.


He is acquainted given the late night remainer rearguard attitude.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Do you not think it's _interesting _that not one single EU state, some of which have their own significant vaccine industries, chose to not get involved in the EU JPA?
> 
> None of these countries have no experience with vaccines, none of them are indifferent to having a vaccine - and yet every _single _one chose to place their faith in the abilities of a body that had no vaccine procurement experience _whatsoever_, all entirely and absolutely voluntarily.


Well, Hungary, Fwiw.

But, that aside, the UK was not for a long time like other EU countries wrt it's attitude to EU joint working. Since Cameron first became PM, it has basically been the UK's policy to either prevent or opt out of anything proposed within the EU that it was not already empowered to do. I think I'm right in saying that it's actually a perfect 100% "no" scorecard. Because there's a section of the Tory party that considered it a line in the sand and apparently hold the power of life and death over prime ministers.

I can see how it might be tempting to speculate that Covid would have been seen as different. Time to bury the hatchet and play good Europeans for a bit. It's definitely not impossible (then again, it also wasn't impossible in the actual case). But I don't see that there's any basis for having confidence that it is what _would_ have unfolded.

Also worth noting that 2020 had been scheduled to be an election year (although it would have been when we were in lockdown), so maybe the decision would have been taken by a Labour government.

It's a whole pile of "who knows?"


----------



## eatmorecheese (Feb 19, 2021)

Tragic thread. Some Tory spad may be reading this thread and laughing their arse off.

I hope the emnity wears off soon. Because it can't be maintained.

We all have to share this rain-soaked island, so let's try not to be dicks about it.

Peace


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> I think the opposite I reckon
> 
> It's a sign that the EU is strong because they are choosing to work through a crisis together and not jump ship because they selfishly have their own vaccine manufacturing capabilities. It's the definition of good practice for a union of nations.
> 
> I think the vaccine procurement thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. They may be a bit behind but not by more than a few weeks and they are paying 1/3 the price. Big picture is the whole of Europe is doing well. Amazingly considering the virus has only just past its first birthday a little while ago.



Disagree.

Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby -  which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy


----------



## Raheem (Feb 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby -  which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy


That's totally true, but I doubt delay was part of their original plan.


----------



## Supine (Feb 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> Disagree.
> 
> Not that I think any of your statements are untrue. But don't think it is a red herring, and is because the EU didn't have a scooby -  which do think costs more? the vaccine or the loss of GDP whiile waiting for it (plus added EUropean citizens that die in that time frame). False economy



Million Dollar question innit. Time will tell. 

There is a similar thing with regulatory approval of vaccines. There is a speed / risk analysis being made by each country. We won't know who got the answer right until it's over.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> I think the opposite I reckon
> 
> It's a sign that the EU is strong because they are choosing to work through a crisis together and not jump ship because they selfishly have their own vaccine manufacturing capabilities. It's the definition of good practice for a union of nations.
> 
> I think the vaccine procurement thing is a bit of a red herring tbh. They may be a bit behind but not by more than a few weeks and they are paying 1/3 the price. Big picture is the whole of Europe is doing well. Amazingly considering the virus has only just past its first birthday a little while ago.


I think anyone who actually follows the EU would tell you that firstly their view was that the U.K. may have gained an advantage through Brexitand that they admit they came late to the game . Secondly that they only came to an agreement on procurement to avoid a split between ‘the inclusive four’ , a possible Portuguese / Greek / Spain approach and other states . Even this didn’t stop Germany ordering outside of the procurement strategy and a hasty face saver that this was ok providing the EU ordered supplies revived priority . Both the EU strategy of we will use our buying strength to force the price down at the expense of contracts agreed early and the passing of liability to the EU state receiving the supplies was heavily criticised in the EU parliament by left wing members . As for being a few weeks behind here in Portugal they are in fact months behind due to only half the order arriving and have had to revise the vaccination schedule and priorities .


----------



## gosub (Feb 19, 2021)

Supine said:


> Million Dollar question innit. Time will tell.
> 
> There is a similar thing with regulatory approval of vaccines. There is a speed / risk analysis being made by each country. We won't know who got the answer right until it's over.



Thats where Brexit definitely was a factor - drug companies tried to beat the divergance window.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

ska invita said:


> in theory both as able and as unable, though as you say, well paid jobs above the 26k threshold _should_ be more diverse in terms of foreign workers, however the points based system is not the meritocracy it might seem - this has a good overview of how bias remains and it continues to favour certain workers over others:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration policy should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.


It gave priority to former commonwealth countries for ages. It’s how my Mauritian relatives all got here.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I wouldn't argue with that. Any immigration policy is by definition discriminatory but this one now removes the ability for Europeans to 'jump the queue' ahead of others. I don't see that as a negative and have long been of the opinion that the UKs immigration policy should give priority to current and former commonwealth nations rather than the elitist bloc. This isn't that but it's better than what we had.



Why would it make  sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Why would it make  sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?


Payback. Plus more likely to assimilate.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Why would it make  sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?


Recompense mainly.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I think anyone who actually follows the EU would tell you that firstly their view was that the U.K. may have gained an advantage through Brexitand that they admit they came late to the game . Secondly that they only came to an agreement on procurement to avoid a split between ‘the inclusive four’ , a possible Portuguese / Greek / Spain approach and other states . Even this didn’t stop Germany ordering outside of the procurement strategy and a hasty face saver that this was ok providing the EU ordered supplies revived priority . Both the EU strategy of we will use our buying strength to force the price down at the expense of contracts agreed early and the passing of liability to the EU state receiving the supplies was heavily criticised in the EU parliament by left wing members . As for being a few weeks behind here in Portugal they are in fact months behind due to only half the order arriving and have had to revise the vaccination schedule and priorities .


Interesting Streeck piece in this week's NLR 'Sidecar' in which he casts the EU vaccination debacle as an effective outgrowth of German domestic politics and, specifically, Merkel's political relationship to VdL.



> Up to now, no-one in Germany has dared to calculate the number of additional deaths caused by the vaccination debacle. The problem, if one is seen at all, is blamed on Brussels, but only softly due to the sacred nature of the EU in German public discourse. This may change


----------



## A380 (Feb 20, 2021)

EU border status in near real time:









						Truck Border Crossing Times & Brexit Ports | Sixfold
					

Real-time visibility into the delays that covid-19 and Brexit are causing at European borders and ports




					live.sixfold.com


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Not much in the way of delays in Dover or Calais.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit... 

I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs. 

These are UK exporters and manufacturers. There is nothing we can do except try to explain what the changes are and why (?) they are needed. 

Disgraced Prime Minister Johnson told NI businesses there would be no additional paperwork. He stated that if there was any paperwork then they should send it to him and he would put it in the bin. 

Most companies we speak with say they will stop exporting/importing, relocate to the EU or are going to cease trading. 

There are a lot of Brexit supporters on this thread but seriously? You think a cheese deal with Japan and some fishing banter will carry a country through a pandemic overseen by a corrupt government who promised £350m per week to the NHS?


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 20, 2021)

Well it's a 1km queue at Dover and a 3km queue at Calais, at what should be the quietest time it will ever be as noone is travelling. It's not good.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit...
> 
> I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs.
> 
> ...


The pandemic and Tory incompetence are not really down to Brexit though.
I do appreciate your front line view though.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not much in the way of delays in Dover or Calais.


At 68% empty returns & no tourist travel!


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Why would it make  sense to place more limits on workers moving freely from neighbouring countries while opening things up to a motley assortment of countries Britain invaded 300 years ago?


“Motley”?


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

It would not have been much remarked upon these delays in Eu days.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> The pandemic and Tory incompetence are not really down to Brexit though.
> I do appreciate your front line view though.


Brexit under a competent government might have worked out OK (in a decade) but this shower of bastards used it as path to power and have given it lip service at best. They have robbed the country for their own ends and got rich.

Brexit on paper might work for some of our mindsets but please never claim this is going well. It is a fucking disaster managed by a greedy shit show of wankers.

All this 'You Lost' shit is pointless. Brexit is costing us all and failing across the board. Worse thing is that the £350m to the NHS has not happened. The reality is that the NHS is being sold off to US concerns and Tory chums.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Recompense mainly.



I'm all for righting colonial wrongs and if I was running things the policy on immigration from Commonwealth countries would be very relaxed indeed - but it's hard to see how letting Australian or South African engineers, IT experts etc. jump the queue ahead of their French or German counterparts would serve the national interest or the interests of anybody except the individuals involved .

Brexit means leaving the European Union, it doesn't have to mean Britain can't strengthen ties with its neighbours on its own terms.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It would not have been much remarked upon these delays in Eu days.


Apples and oranges.
This looks like, as a true Leave believer, you're reaching a bit.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Apples and oranges.
> This looks like, as a true Leave believer, you're reaching a bit.


I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this. 
A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this.
> A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.


Check the shelves in Northern Ireland mate


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am not a true leave believer. If there were empty shelves in the supermarkets or if prices had shot up I would acknowledge this.
> A queue of 0.6 of a mile at Dover does not seem unusual in my experience of travelling across the channel.


When you've gone through Dover with return freight at 68% empty & no tourism, eh? Yeah, right...as I said; apples & oranges.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Check the shelves in Northern Ireland mate


Aren’t they getting more stuff from Ireland now as a result?


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> “Motley”?



Per the Cambridge dictionary: "Consisting of many different types that do not appear to go together."

Is there a better adjective for a group that includes Canada, Belize, Hong Kong, Fiji, Mozambique, Pakistan, Australia, Jamaica, Botswana, Cyprus, Malaysia, and the UK?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Aren’t they getting more stuff from Ireland now as a result?


Yes. The EU is sorting them out because UK traders are not.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Travel and freight delays were always going to be an issue. We’re less than 2 months into proper Brexit. If this is still a major problem in a year or two I’d be surprised.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
> Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.


It went well in the past


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

An accurate reply to this:

No. WTO means WTO tariffs & national NTBs on trade with _all_ WTO members. It also means you have to offer the same terms to all WTO members - you can't give preferential treatment to some.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

The Dover delays were predicted by some to back up to the M25. 0.6 of a mile seems like sod all compared.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

The Brexit misinformation has been obvious to us all from the outset of the campaign. 

Issue is that their are a number of people who have self interest in this. The rest of us either buy into these lies or we suffer.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 20, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Per the Cambridge dictionary: "Consisting of many different types that do not appear to go together."
> 
> Is there a better adjective for a group that includes Canada, Belize, Hong Kong, Fiji, Mozambique, Pakistan, Australia, Jamaica, Botswana, Cyprus, Malaysia, and the UK?


It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours.  As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent.  I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> The Brexit misinformation has been obvious to us all from the outset of the campaign.
> 
> Issue is that their are a number of people who have self interest in this. The rest of us either buy into these lies or we suffer.


Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.


I agree but you must accept that there were huge financial 'interests' backing Brexit for their own benefit? The funding for Brexit was massive compared to the (Theresa May backed at one point) remain campaign?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> If you are interested in what is actually happening in Brexit...
> 
> I am working for HMRC on this and the change to declarations starting next week has meant my staff have been taking calls with people in tears because they can't cope with the paperwork and costs.
> 
> ...



Badgers you have my sympathy, and I share your frustrations, and I share your views on the honesty and competency of what we are pleased to call the current government - the problem is that this stuff, when positioned as _opposition _to the UK being outside the EU, or leaving the EU as a result of a referendum with fairly high turn-out and therefore legitimacy, is that it utterly ignores huge issues of sovereignty, political legitimacy, identity and democracy and doubles down on what is in big picture terms, really small scale stuff, often in a way that looks pretty self-absorbed.

Would you argue the the moral, philosophical, and political points of, say, Scottish independence with an SNP supporter based on postage fees?

Would you argue the rights and wrongs of Irish independence on the basis that the Irish railway network disappeared, and therefore Irish independence was utterly flawed in concept?

No, I rather doubt you would - you would instinctively understand that to debate such huge issues on the basis of fairly minor technicalities would be pretty insulting to the other person and would get you absolutely nowhere, and you would debate them on these huge issues of political legitimacy and identity.

If you want to address this or that issue with the legalities and mechanism of this or that aspect of the trading relationship then fine - but it would be nice if those honking off about brexit also addressed the things they don't talk about: is this or that convenience worth being part of a proto-state with an executive, a parliament, a security and defence policy, a judiciary, an economic policy, and tentacles reaching into every other political sphere? 

Or is it that you simply don't care about any of that because you have no forms to fill in, and it's easy to buy stuff off of eBay.de?

By all means support membership the EU, but be honest that it's not just a magic pill making it easier to this or that without paperwork, it's a full spectrum state with an identity and a political pathway that it is set on, and not a great deal of democratic oversight or opposition to what it does or how.

If you want others to be open, honest, nuanced and self-reflective, you need to do it yourself.


----------



## prunus (Feb 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours.  As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent.  I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.



Is it? I certainly don’t understand it that way, except in the archaic sense of describing jesters’ costumes. Used in modern discourse I would not attribute it any other meaning than an approximate synonym of “an eclectic rag-tag mix of [nouns]”, and I don’t recall seeing or hearing it being used to mean (from context) multi-coloured.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.


Interesting point (of debate) but I think much of the voter perception had crystallised over a longer time-frame that that of the formal campaigns. Remember the right of the Tory party (& their press) had been banging on about the supra state for decades. My own view is that the 'European migrant crisis' peaking in the year before the referendum was pivotal...whatever the various campaigns led on.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

kebabking i assume you are a leave voter? No worries about that, it is democracy. 

The UK under a Tory government? I would support Scottish independence. Would also add Wales and the North to that. Likely the West Country Brexit fans would like it too  

As for a united Ireland I am all for it. I do fear that the factions across the 'frictionless' border may not take it so well. 

Sorry to rant at people. I work in the Brexit project and it is awful. I understand that the EU is not the wonderful thing some remainers claim it is. However, I would rather have been a part of it and improving than sitting alone on a plague island blaming others while the rich get richer.


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s a word that is culturally typically associated with commentary regarding things of many colours.  As such, it’s not the word I’d personally go for when talking about the historic institutional bias against immigrants from Africa and the Indian subcontinent.  I accept you didn’t mean it that way but such is the nature of the way language is used in popular discourse.



Fair enough - I'd be all for a points-based system that addressed previous unfair treatment to immigrants from Africa and Asia, not so much if it was a system that let people from Canada etc. and members of the elite in a disparate group of countries move to the front of the queue purely because of where they were born.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I think much of the voter perception had crystallised over a longer time-frame that that of the formal campaigns.



But we all know there has always been a decent amount of left-wing anti-EU analysis too, even if it was almost completely absent from any mainstream debate and was characterized more or less as more loony-left crankery. When crunch time came, it was too late to center those points, they were already too far beyond the pale for Labour to take them up (even if the PLP will had been there to do so)

Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.

(ftr I voted Remain but am on reflection glad Leave won, in the sense of it having lanced a boil)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Check the shelves in Northern Ireland mate


We need a Northern Ireland correspondent


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> kebabking i assume you are a leave voter? No worries about that, it is democracy.
> 
> The UK under a Tory government? I would support Scottish independence. Would also add Wales and the North to that. Likely the West Country Brexit fans would like it too
> 
> ...



I voted remain actually, with huge reservations, and huge concerns about either a leave or remain future.

I have become even less attracted to the EU, whether that would push me to becoming a leave voter I'm not sure, but it would certainly make it closer, and me even more reluctant...


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> “Motley”?


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I voted remain actually, with huge reservations, and huge concerns about either a leave or remain future.
> 
> I have become even less attracted to the EU, whether that would push me to becoming a leave voter I'm not sure, but it would certainly make it closer, and me even more reluctant...


To be honest I would rather leave the UK right now


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> But we all know there has always been a decent amount of left-wing anti-EU analysis too, even if it was almost completely absent from any mainstream debate and was characterized more or less as more loony-left crankery. When crunch time came, it was too late to center those points, they were already too far beyond the pale for Labour to take them up (even if the PLP will had been there to do so)
> 
> Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.
> 
> (ftr I voted Remain but am on reflection glad Leave won, in the sense of it having lanced a boil)


Agreed.
Although some of us are old enough to remember an anti-EEC Labour left, by the time of the referendum that felt a world away. The only Lexit arguments that I heard were on here and from a few RMT speakers at various things I went to in 2016. I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We need a Northern Ireland correspondent


I work with a lot of people in NI across the board they are suffering


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 20, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> Now, left-leavers are having to fight a rearguard battle explaining again and again why they aren't thick-racist leavers like the ones everybody loves to hate.



I'd have voted Remain if I'd bothered voting and I'd probably vote Rejoin if there was a referendum tomorrow, but most of my conversations about Brexit in the real world have involved me defending the Lexit perspective. Though of course that hasn't happened much in the last year or so.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I agree but you must accept that there were huge financial 'interests' backing Brexit for their own benefit? The funding for Brexit was massive compared to the (Theresa May backed at one point) remain campaign?


Absolutely agree.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 20, 2021)

I think having politicians from Tory and labour and libbdems all fervently proclaiming leave drove a lot to vote leave and have a lasting contempt for politicians of all stripes.

ETA I meant remain. Oops.


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.



I'm not sure. No Leave voters I know voted Leave because they _don't like immigration_ - but EU corruption and lack of democracy / accountability are recurring themes. Some of them voted ''for Boris'' too, and as I understand it that was purely to ''get brexit done'' because he was the only one promising to. I personally hate that, but I do understand it; I still feel if Labour had promised to ''get brexit done'' they could have romped home in 2019. Sadly, we can never know.

I don't like to draw any general conclusions because my friends and work colleagues are a liberal bunch by and large. But my impression is they weren't _swayed _by left-leave arguments exactly, but that some left-leave concerns are echoed among them, whether they're aware of it or not. I am enjoying pointing this out to them when the chance comes up.

This is in Devon though. In Bristol I was meeting far more Remainers than I do now.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> I work with a lot of people in NI across the board they are suffering


I've no reason not to believe you Badgers, all I'm saying is that it would be good if we had some posters on here who live there ( obviously neither rejoin zealots or loony loyalists).


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I've no reason not to believe you Badgers, all I'm saying is that it would be good if we had some posters on here who live there ( obviously neither rejoin zealots or loony loyalists).


TBF I dont want anyone I work with reading my posts


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> TBF I dont want anyone I work with reading my posts



You be careful pal


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2021)

rutabowa said:


> Well it's a 1km queue at Dover and a 3km queue at Calais, at what should be the quietest time it will ever be as noone is travelling. It's not good.


And a 1km queue at Harwich adding another 7 hours to the journey time.  The drivers must be well fucked off.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Agreed.
> Although some of us are old enough to remember an anti-EEC Labour left, by the time of the referendum that felt a world away. The only Lexit arguments that I heard were on here and from a few RMT speakers at various things I went to in 2016. I don't think that any Lexit arguments had any traction with the vast majority of Leave voters.


That's true and as you know there's a story for why that anti EEC Labour left virtually disappeared and the TUC and soft left seeking out the EU as the least worst option. Also subsumed into that void at a later date was the stay and reform argument.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

Had to call the Gammon TopCat and take him to task


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.


I disagree. I'd suggest this big fat lie was a very effective marketing tool which garnered huge amounts of press attention, especially in the right wing rags.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> ...Also subsumed into that void at a later date was the stay and reform argument.



I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change _in any direction_ was simply not on the cards.

It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 20, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both campaigns lied through their teeth. I always wondered though why people thought voters were heavily influenced by the campaigns. I don’t think they were particularly.


Agree with this. The day Cameron announced the ref was going to be held around where I live & in my local pub it was almost a party atmosphere. “Yeah let’s get out” “fuck the EU” & so on all very good humoured & happy. Nobody I spoke to  except me intended to vote remain.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change _in any direction_ was simply not on the cards.
> 
> It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.




I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 20, 2021)

editor said:


> I disagree. I'd suggest this big fat lie was a very effective marketing tool which garnered huge amounts of press attention, especially in the right wing rags.
> 
> View attachment 255212


I think the sad truth is that Cummings' three-word tabloid headline-style slogans were probably the biggest factor campaign-wise. Take Back Control. Get Brexit Done. Direct, active, imperative, short.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.


From trading agreement to integration


----------



## two sheds (Feb 20, 2021)

And it does have to be said that getting free of the unelected, unaccountable, unlistening, rigid EU Commission is a result. 

Shame we've got the shitshower in power that we have, but still.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

The left in Europe would think it was odd to find a left that is as uncritical of the EU as swathes of the UK left are to be honest. Even outside of what we would consider to be left of Labour here there is tension for many European social democrats between what may be best for the national state and what may be best for the EU. There are parties and  MEPs who want to reform the EU and those who want it abolished and replaced with voluntary co-operation. Others are EU sceptic when it suits them and when the cash comes stay silent. Whereas you often get the feeling from the pro EU left here is that any criticism of the EU is to be frowned upon as it is somehow seen as an endorsement of the Tories or plays into their hands.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I feel it was that which done for the whole thing, the EU telling the UK that they were its masters, was never going to end well.


In part, though my own perception of 'typical leave voting' older members of my working class family indicated that suspicion of the supra state project was not directly expressed but more often couched in terms of:

_they _lied to us last time (1975) and never told us it would be like this
look how shit everything has become since _they _lied to us
not forgetting the _why are the Europeans throwing open the doors to all and sundry._


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> In part, though my own perception of 'typical leave voting' older members of my working class family indicated that suspicion of the supra state project was not directly expressed but more often couched in terms of:
> 
> _they _lied to us last time (1975) and never told us it would be like this
> look how shit everything has become since _they _lied to us
> *not forgetting the *_*why are the Europeans throwing open the doors to all and sundry.*_



Quite astonishing that these people have no understanding about the business model of Pret A Manger


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Quite astonishing that these people have no understanding about the business model of Pret A Manger


Perhaps rather ironically, given that these were the predominant sentiments they expressed, both my elderly parents decided to ask their grandchildren how they'd like them to cast their referendum ballot...so, they held their noses, and voted remain.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

I suppose they'd make up part of this study's 'false positives' cohort given that they fell slap bang in the 'typical leave voter' criteria:



> We find that voting Leave is associated with older age, white ethnicity, low educational attainment, infrequent use of smartphones and the internet, receiving benefits, adverse health and low life satisfaction.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 20, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I think the sad truth is that Cummings' three-word tabloid headline-style slogans were probably the biggest factor campaign-wise. Take Back Control. Get Brexit Done. Direct, active, imperative, short.


Before the last general election I tried to persuade people to vote anything but Tory pointing out that surely they must know this was not the Tory party that some had voted for all their lives. It had morphed into a bunch of right wing extremist chancers. The most sensible rational guy I know who has voted Labour in the past said he was voting Tory just to end the impasse. He wanted to indeed get brexit done just to move on from all the arguments of the last 4 years. Think this is true of plenty of people who voted Tory through gritted teeth just to move things on.


----------



## Badgers (Feb 20, 2021)

Think I am done with this


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Think I am done with this


Can see how such a _busman's holiday _of a thread for you might be a bit gutty, but don't give up on the discussion; your frontline experience is a really valuable contribution to the discussions in here.


----------



## Spandex (Feb 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> I think, from conversations I've had, and my own gut feelings, is that the 'stay and reform' thing died with Cameron getting the big finger when he sought to fiddle with the relationship - I think that regardless of you view of what Cameron was asking for, the EU telling one of its big members (snort, fnaar, gurgle) with 1/7th of all economic activity in the bloc, half it's P5 seats on the UNSC, half it's nukes and about 30% of its usable military force, that it could fuck off, said that serious change _in any direction_ was simply not on the cards.
> 
> It very clearly signposted that 'the project' was the important thing, and absolutely not the servant of the member states. That turned a lot of people (probably those of soft remain, who saw the relationship in transactional terms) right off.


Cameron's "attempts to reform the EU" is a curious thing to have such importance, as Cameron never had the slightest intention of reforming the EU and never seriously tried to reform the EU. His trip round Europe in 2015 was just a blatant bit of political theatre in the run up to his announcing the referendum, which he'd already promised in his 2015 election manifesto. 

If he was serious about EU reform there would've been months or years of behind the scenes negotiations trying to build a consensus amongst the EU states before politicians started meeting to finalise a deal. That way of agreeing things is an example of the undemocratic nature of how things are done in the EU. 

Instead, he jumped on a plane with a list of demands that he knew wouldn't be agreed and flew around meeting leaders who knew perfectly well what he was up to - trying to create an impression that he'd tried to get a better deal and failed before announcing the referendum. That he wouldn't get what he was demanding and would then announce the referendum was a foregone conclusion and understood by everyone before he'd even started and everyone just played their part.

I think everyone assumed it didn't matter, as everyone assumed Cameron's favoured remain position would win. That Cameron's pissing around convinced some people that reform of the EU was impossible (let's put aside the debate on whether it is) and to therefore vote leave is just another example of Cameron's incompetence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2021)

Badgers said:


> Think I am done with this


but is this done with you?


----------



## philosophical (Feb 20, 2021)

Astonishing reading above that brexit voters are saying they voted that way because what they were seeking was Irish unification on that island.
Yeah right.
To me it reads like a bollocks non justification for the damage they deliberately called on, and a desperate attempt to find some kind of justification for said damage.
Crack on brexiters/lexiters.
What's next? I voted brexit to save shellfish?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Astonishing reading above that brexit voters are saying they voted that way because what they were seeking was Irish unification on that island.


Who's said that?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Who's said that?



The voices in his head, the ones he replies back to.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2021)

kebabking said:


> The voices in his head, the ones he replies back to.


(((voices in his head)))

bet they wish they'd gone elsewhere


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Who's said that?





TopCat said:


> I don’t claim the situation in NI to be any sort of success as it is. I always thought though the subsequent issues with Brexit in NI would push the north and south closer together.
> Possibly lead to unification. That would be a big Brexit success. Time will tell.


Not specifically why they voted, but given the "I always thought" part it's reasonable to infer that informed the decision.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Not specifically why they voted, but given the "I always thought" part it's reasonable to infer that informed the decision.


That's not ureasonable though. There was plenty of similar speculation, not least, as I remember, from remainers and Irish posters who suggested a united Ireland might be 'one good thing to come from Brexit' and similar. It's certainly not saying that was his reason for voting leave.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> That's not ureasonable though. There was plenty of similar speculation, not least, as I remember, from remainers and Irish posters who suggested a united Ireland might be 'one good thing to come from Brexit' and similar. It's certainly not saying that was his reason for voting leave.


Hence the first five words of my post.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 20, 2021)

For much of the rest of the world the implosion of the UK would be no bad thing.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Hence the first five words of my post.


If you'd ended the post after those five words it would have been a good one.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> If you'd ended the post after those five words it would have been a good one.


Whilst you fell at the first 3. I said it was reasonable, you replied it's not unreasonable.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Whilst you fell at the first 3. I said it was reasonable, you replied it's not unreasonable.


Poor comprehension on your part I'm afraid. I replied that TC's post was not unreasonable. Yours most certainly was.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Poor comprehension on your part I'm afraid. I replied that TC's post was not unreasonable. Yours most certainly was.


Nah, not really. Anyway I've got some lovely French wine and cheese I'm of to enjoy. Have a pleasant evening.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Nah, not really. Anyway I've got some lovely French wine and cheese I'm of to enjoy. Have a pleasant evening.



How the fuck did you manage to get hold of that? Have you not heard the news???


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 20, 2021)

Foreign muck.

I'm on Stilton and cider.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How the fuck did you manage to get hold of that? Have you not heard the news???


Intermarche and the local commune cave.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Intermarche...



Is that forrin for _Waitrose?_


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

O


kebabking said:


> Is that forrin for _Waitrose?_


Oui


----------



## kebabking (Feb 20, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> Oui



This isn't just wee, this is the wee of an Umbrian Nun, blind since childhood, who eats nothing but honey, and drinks only spring water...

Serve with an artisan loaf, ground from the finest grains - only £12 per serving.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

12 euros per serving.


----------



## editor (Feb 20, 2021)

More jobs disappearing thanks to Brexit



> *In Holyhead, traffic has fallen 50% as hauliers stymied by Brexit find their way from Ireland to France without entering the UK*
> 
> Perched on the shores of Anglesey, the island linked by road bridges to the north-west coast of Wales, Holyhead’s geography has given it a leading role in British-Irish trade since the early 19th century.
> 
> ...











						Ports feel the chill as trade re-routes around Brexit Britain
					

In Holyhead, traffic has fallen 50% as hauliers stymied by Brexit find their way from Ireland to France without entering the UK




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 20, 2021)

editor said:


> More jobs disappearing thanks to Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


First world problems for us admittedly, but my OH tried to order a new laptop from a UK company for delivery to France. 4 weeks ago they promised a 7 day delivery. We still don't know if and when they can deliver. The company has claimed Brexit complications. Whether or not we get the laptop is irrelevant, but a UK business is clearly struggling as a result of Brexit, and sadly that will probably mean jobs.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 20, 2021)

editor said:


> More jobs disappearing thanks to Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tens of thousands of trucks arrived from Ireland and drove on U.K. roads to Dover without refuelling or even buying a Yorkie bar, now not happening, all that pollution. Now not happening. Shipping trucks from Ireland directly to France, even to Dunkirk is a massive win for the global climate. We need much more of this thing.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 21, 2021)

There must be new jobs created by the new ferry services too.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> There must be new jobs created by the new ferry services too.


Yes. It’s good news for Philippines & Thailand seafarers.


----------



## Supine (Feb 21, 2021)

teuchter said:


> There must be new jobs created by the new ferry services too.



In Ireland and france


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Tens of thousands of trucks arrived from Ireland and drove on U.K. roads to Dover without refuelling or even buying a Yorkie bar, now not happening, all that pollution. Now not happening. Shipping trucks from Ireland directly to France, even to Dunkirk is a massive win for the global climate. We need much more of this thing.


You mean all those needlessly empty trucks that are now travelling across the seas on much longer journeys, while Anglesey is fucked?


> This is where the land bridge works. It may work [travelling] direct from Ireland to France, but the return loads are often dropping off in the UK, before then picking up to take back to Ireland. We know now there are a lot of empty units going back and forth, and that is not sustainable.





> ...a lasting downturn at the port would be a fresh blow for Anglesey’s economy, hot on the heels of the decision last year by Hitachi to pull the plug on its planned £16bn new nuclear power station on the island at Wylfa. “Without the port there is nothing left,” said Arfon Morris, 56, owner of the Boathouse hotel, which has been providing rooms during lockdown for essential workers to try to make up for almost a year without tourists.






BobDavis said:


> Yes. It’s good news for Philippines & Thailand seafarers.


Working for non-UK shipping lines.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

Britain’s roads are fucked.  The M25 is a disaster area in particular.  Vehicles being trapped in queues that are literally miles long on motorways, losing hours to sitting in ever-increasing fumes costs this country untold damage in environmental problems, lost time and money.  Removing a massive chunk of the traffic that is sitting on those motorways can only be a net good thing.  I’m sorry that some workers in the port in Anglesey will lose out, though.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> For much of the rest of the world the implosion of the UK would be no bad thing.


This simply is not true. Do you seriously think it would be good for our near neighbours if this country turned into Venezuela ? To have a basket case country on their doorstep ? Why has the £ not collapsed ? In fact why has it strengthened against the € & US$ in recent weeks ? It is because that is what the rest of the world wants.

Certainly brexit will reduce the GDP of this country. That is just simple maths. However much to the chagrin of some remoaners the economy will not be collapsing anytime soon & we are not going to rejoin next year. They really need to get over it. I have.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> First world problems for us admittedly, but my OH tried to order a new laptop from a UK company for delivery to France. 4 weeks ago they promised a 7 day delivery. We still don't know if and when they can deliver. The company has claimed Brexit complications. Whether or not we get the laptop is irrelevant, but a UK business is clearly struggling as a result of Brexit, and sadly that will probably mean jobs.


Why not buy one from your nearest Leclerc ? Just askin’ like.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Britain’s roads are fucked.  The M25 is a disaster area in particular.  Vehicles being trapped in queues that are literally miles long on motorways, losing hours to sitting in ever-increasing fumes costs this country untold damage in environmental problems, lost time and money.  Removing a massive chunk of the traffic that is sitting on those motorways can only be a net good thing.  I’m sorry that some workers in the port in Anglesey will lose out, though.


You know what? It’s never occurred to me that thousands of fucking great trucks would be crossing the channel, driving through England and Wales, then crossing the Irish Sea, to get to Ireland, rather than getting a boat from France/Spain/wherever to Ireland directly. Superb news that all these heavy, polluting lorries, whose drivers are sat on the wrong side of the vehicle and are often involved in accidents, will be making alternative arrangements.

Those who’ve been demanding to be shown tangible benefits of Brexit; there’s one right there.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Why not buy one from your nearest Leclerc ? Just askin’ like.


Keyboards are AZERKY  not QWERTY.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> You know what? It’s never occurred to me that thousands of fucking great trucks would be crossing the channel, driving through England and Wales, then crossing the Irish Sea, to get to Ireland, rather than getting a boat from France/Spain/wherever to Ireland directly. Superb news that all these heavy, polluting vehicles, whose drivers are sat on the wrong side of the vehicle and are often involved in accidents, will be making alternative arrangements.
> 
> Those who’ve been demanding to be shown tangible benefits of Brexit; there’s one right there.



You would have assumed that a _globe-trotting eco-warrior _would have rejoiced in the huge reduction of heavy, polluting vehicles driving around their city...


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> More jobs disappearing thanks to Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The jobs aren't "disappearing" though, they're being relocated to other countries, in this case Ireland and France. 

In time, I imagine certain other jobs in the supply and logistics industry which are currently located in other European countries will be relocated to Britain, though whether the numbers are similar remains to be seen.

And if your concern is genuinely about specifically "British jobs", you might also attempt to take into account all the erstwhile British jobs which have been previously re-located in other European countries or which have gone to EU citizens working in Britain, both as a result of Britain being in the EU.


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes. It’s good news for Philippines & Thailand seafarers.


I'm not sure that this is actually the case, but are you necessarily against jobs going to Philippines & Thailand seafarers?

I thought all these Remain supporters were trying to position themselves as the great internationalists and dismiss Leave supporters as selfish Little Englanders or worse...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> This simply is not true. Do you seriously think it would be good for our near neighbours if this country turned into Venezuela ? To have a basket case country on their doorstep ? Why has the £ not collapsed ? In fact why has it strengthened against the € & US$ in recent weeks ? It is because that is what the rest of the world wants.
> 
> Certainly brexit will reduce the GDP of this country. That is just simple maths. However much to the chagrin of some remoaners the economy will not be collapsing anytime soon & we are not going to rejoin next year. They really need to get over it. I have.


I was thinking of the end of the perverse British supply of weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia. The end of overweening British posturing on the international stage and the humanitarian interventions like the one which prompted the massacres in Kosovo or toppled Gaddafi. Not so important perhaps as the rate of the pound and gdp which you prize so highly. but I stand by my view that the end of the United Kingdom with more pacific polities replacing it would be welcomed by much of the rest of the world. The real end of empire. The end of punching above our weight and the myth of the special relationship. The end of the poisonous monarchy. And I hope the beginning of new, respectful, and positive relationships between the peoples of these islands and their neighbours.

Anyway you seem to be missing that the six counties will be joining the twenty-six at some point. The demography points that way, it is irreversible although the sort of all Ireland state remains to be seen. Brexit is boosting the chances of Scottish independence and real rumblings of Welsh independence are being heard. The UK is unraveling before our eyes.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I was thinking of the end of the perverse British supply of weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia. The end of overweening British posturing on the international stage and the humanitarian interventions like the one which prompted the massacres in Kosovo or toppled Gaddafi. Not so important perhaps as the rate of the pound and gdp which you prize so highly. but I stand by my view that the end of the United Kingdom with more pacific polities replacing it would be welcomed by much of the rest of the world. The real end of empire. The end of punching above our weight and the myth of the special relationship. The end of the poisonous monarchy. And I hope the beginning of new, respectful, and positive relationships between the peoples of these islands and their neighbours.


You can have the hope, but it comes saddled with the reality of the need for hope, and that reality is none of the above is about to happen anytime soon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

Lucy Fur said:


> You can have the hope, but it comes saddled with the reality of the need for hope, and that reality is none of the above is about to happen anytime soon.


yes there's no chance of Wales Scotland and the northeast of Ireland departing the uk


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

andysays said:


> The jobs aren't "disappearing" though, they're being relocated to other countries, in this case Ireland and France.
> 
> In time, I imagine certain other jobs in the supply and logistics industry which are currently located in other European countries will be relocated to Britain, though whether the numbers are similar remains to be seen.
> 
> And if your concern is genuinely about specifically "British jobs", you might also attempt to take into account all the erstwhile British jobs which have been previously re-located in other European countries or which have gone to EU citizens working in Britain, both as a result of Britain being in the EU.


That's an awful lot of whataboutery and none of it will stop me expressing concern about the poorest part of Britain losing even more jobs.









						Anglesey is still poorest part of Britain despite Welsh economy growing at fastest rate in UK
					

The latest GVA figures show a mixed picture for the region




					www.dailypost.co.uk


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> You would have assumed that a _globe-trotting eco-warrior _would have rejoiced in the huge reduction of heavy, polluting vehicles driving around their city...


Who are you referring to here?


----------



## Lucy Fur (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yes there's no chance of Wales Scotland and the northeast of Ireland departing the uk


Nor the rest of your post. Sadly. The monarchy, weapon sales, punching above our weight and all the rest will be with us for some considerable time  yet.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> That's an awful lot of whataboutery and none of it will stop me expressing concern about the poorest part of Britain losing even more jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have concerns about many things and some of those things are in conflict with each other.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

If it was already the poorest part despite Welsh economic growth, perhaps something other than a transit route for Irish lorries is needed?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If it was already the poorest part despite Welsh economic growth, perhaps something other than a transit route for Irish lorries is needed?


A theme park or garden bridge perhaps?


----------



## Cerv (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> That's an awful lot of whataboutery and none of it will stop me expressing concern about the poorest part of Britain losing even more jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



whether direct Ireland - France sailings or use of Britain as a land bridge is is better environmentally and therefore the correct thing to transition to, can everyone at least agree that making that transition should have at the very least been a managed process rather than pulling the rug out from under people overnight?


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If it was already the poorest part despite Welsh economic growth, perhaps something other than a transit route for Irish lorries is needed?


So apart from the jobs that now look likely to disappear, what practical suggestions do you have?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> That's an awful lot of whataboutery and none of it will stop me expressing concern about the poorest part of Britain losing even more jobs.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Anglesey voted to leave - if by a whisker - so you don't have to worry about it.

Just like Port Talbot...


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

Cerv said:


> whether direct Ireland - France sailings or use of Britain as a land bridge is is better environmentally and therefore the correct thing to transition to, can everyone at least agree that making that transition should have at the very least been a managed process rather than pulling the rug out from under people overnight?


Absolutely. and if I was in charge of things, I'd make it far more attractive to transport more goods by rail. And get the Royal Mail back on the tracks too.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

Cerv said:


> whether direct Ireland - France sailings or use of Britain as a land bridge is is better environmentally and therefore the correct thing to transition to, can everyone at least agree that making that transition should have at the very least been a managed process rather than pulling the rug out from under people overnight?


Are you asking if Brexit has been poorly handled by this government?  If so, I don't think you're going to get any disagreement from anyone, no.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Anglesey voted to leave - if by a whisker - so you don't have to worry about it.
> 
> Just like Port Talbot...


What an unpleasant attitude you have today. I'll worry about what I want to worry about, thanks, and that won't be dependent on the results of a highly flawed, misleading referendum.

Besides, it was probably the fault of the English anyway. 









						English people living in Wales tilted it towards Brexit, research finds
					

Areas of Wales with big English communities had larger leave vote in 2016, according to study




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> Absolutely. and if I was in charge of things, I'd make it far more attractive to transport more goods by rail. And get the Royal Mail back on the tracks too.


Also, if you were in charge of things, we'd be at war with a lot of different countries by now...


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Also, if you were in charge of things, we'd be at war with a lot of different countries by now...


I've really no idea what motivates you to spout such dishonest garbage - and insist on trying to make the debate personal - but I'd be interested is seeing you back this up. Exactly where have I declared an interest in the UK starting a war with _anyone _and what has that got to do with my comments about rail freight?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> I've really no idea what motivates you to spout such dishonest garbage - and insist on trying to make the debate personal - but I'd be interested is seeing you back this up. Exactly where have I declared an interest in the UK starting a war with _anyone?_


Lol.  It was a reference to the fact that you are a touch... _pugnacious_.  Which you have kindly illustrated in the very post that you used to object to the characterisation.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 21, 2021)

The reason why routes from Ireland to mainland Europe have been changing is because of borders.
The land border issue on the island of Ireland remains (for me) a huge problem brought about by the leave vote and leavers are yet to suggest a realistic workable long term solution.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Lol.  It was a reference to the fact that you are a touch... _pugnacious_.  Which you have kindly illustrated in the very post that you used to object to the characterisation.


Marvellous word pugnacious


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Lol.  It was a reference to the fact that you are a touch... _pugnacious_.  Which you have kindly illustrated in the very post that you used to object to the characterisation.


It's not me who's dishing out the cheap personal critiques and making up bullshit to try and get a rise.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Lol.  It was a reference to the fact that you are a touch... _pugnacious_.  Which you have kindly illustrated in the very post that you used to object to the characterisation.


Just came across to me as you being unnecessarily nasty.

Fwiw


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Just came across to me as you being unnecessarily nasty.
> 
> Fwiw


It was just a joke.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has noticed over the years that Ed could have a fight in a nunnery.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> It's not me who's dishing out the cheap personal critiques and making up bullshit to try and get a rise.


Excellent.  I do love a man who knows himself.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> So apart from the jobs that now look likely to disappear, what practical suggestions do you have?



Surely that's something the Welsh and Anglesey administrations would be better placed to answer than me. What contingency plans have they put in place since the referendum in 2016 to provide employment for those affected by reduced port traffic?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It was just a joke.  I'm pretty sure I'm


You most recent posts don't come across as jovial banter. More like nasty digs.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It was just a joke.  I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one who has noticed over the years that Ed could have a fight in a nunnery.


Maybe if you found yourself on the receiving end of such comments every single day, you might feel the same. 

If you've finished delivering your negative personal critique, perhaps we might get back to discussing Brexit?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Surely that's something the Welsh and Anglesey administrations would be better placed to answer than me.


I don't think you've quite grasped what discussion boards are for


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Surely that's something the Welsh and Anglesey administrations would be better placed to answer than me. What contingency plans have they put in place since the referendum in 2016 to provide employment for those affected by reduced port traffic?


What practical options do you think the poorest part of Britain might have available to them?


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You most recent posts don't come across as jovial banter. More like nasty digs.


Well, that's what happens when somebody doesnt see the funny side of their own character and responds by escalating tension instead of laughing along.  It does indeed stop being funny (despite the ironic humour in seeing a behaviour denied via a reaction that exemplifies the very reactive typology that is being denied).  I will remember that all references to Ed are to be Deathly Serious from now on and Zip It.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> What an unpleasant attitude you have today. Besides it was probably the fault of the English anyway.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We'll brush over your short - or perhaps convenient - memory regarding your somewhat unpleasant attitude towards the closure of the Port Talbot steelworks shortly after the referendum, I seem to recall you crowing about it being the workers own fault because they were so stupid to vote to leave...

Shall we move on to your rabid, and exclusionary nationalism? I wonder if you would describe people from Pakistan, India, the Caribbean, or Europe who had moved to, and settled in,Wales in such a way - no, of course not, they would be Welsh, because they live in Wales. How odd then that you would single out another nationality for apparent _crimes - _one might almost believe you harboured some loathing prejudice against people based purely on where they were born and their accent...

So no, I don't believe that your horror at these job losses is remotely real - in fact I'm sure that had the UK remained in the EU and direct ferry routes between mainland Europe and Ireland been brought in, with their attendant environmental benefits for those who live on the road routes, you'd have been perfectly happy. Perhaps you would have been sad about the job losses in what is an already chronically deprived area, but you'd have accepted them as the inevitable, and necessary, price for wider environmental protection.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Well, that's what happens when somebody doesnt see the funny side of their own character and responds by escalating tension instead of laughing along.  It does indeed stop being funny (despite the ironic humour in seeing a behaviour denied via a reaction that exemplifies the very reactive typology that is being denied).  I will remember that all references to Ed are to be Deathly Serious from now on and Zip It.


You made a joke. The object of your joke took it the wrong way, and your response to that was 'lol'. 

Who was the one escalating the tension in that exchange?


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> We'll brush over your short - or perhaps convenient - memory regarding your somewhat unpleasant attitude towards the closure of the Port Talbot steelworks shortly after the referendum, I seem to recall you crowing about it being the workers own fault because they were so stupid to vote to leave...


Link please. Thanks.

I can only find this from the 'Redcar Save Our Steel, Port Talbot and UK steelworks fight for their future' thread':


editor said:


> I liked Plaid Cymru's Leanne Woods saying it was as important to the country as the banking industry.



Who was your 'eco warrior' comment aimed at earlier, by the way and why is was it relevant to this thread?

Oh, and you can get to fuck with this ridiculous claim of my 'rabid nationalism.'

It's like Ad Hominem day in this thread.  Be really great if people could get back to the actual topic now rather than blaming me for not 'laughing along' to unfunny nasty digs.  .


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 21, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You made a joke. The object of your joke took it the wrong way, and your response to that was 'lol'.
> 
> Who was the one escalating the tension in that exchange?



People give as well as they get around here, you know that.

You're not helping at all, tbf.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You made a joke. The object of your joke took it the wrong way, and your response to that was 'lol'.
> 
> Who was the one escalating the tension in that exchange?


It's alright, boss man, I've Zipped It.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> What practical options do you think the poorest part of Britain might have available to them?



Well, having had a look at the issue and read some of the comments of Rhun ap Iorwerth my suggestion for the short term would be to go hard on tourism as lockdown eases. Plenty of scope for attracting domestic tourists and hosting events. Secondly I'd acknowledge that its popularity as a retirement destination has affected local GDP figures, but I'd capitalise on that and aim to attract higher net worth retirees, for example by leveraging the entire-coast AONB (red squirrels! auks!).


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> People give as well as they get around here, you know that.
> 
> You're not helping at all, tbf.


I'm not helping in the sense that kabbes is continuing to be a prick. But I piped up to say that not everyone reading this thread thought it was just jovial banter. Sometimes that does help when you're being sniped at.


----------



## Maggot (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Shall we move on to your rabid, and exclusionary nationalism? I wonder if you would describe people from Pakistan, India, the Caribbean, or Europe who had moved to, and settled in,Wales in such a way - no, of course not, they would be Welsh, because they live in Wales. How odd then that you would single out another nationality for apparent _crimes - _one might almost believe you harboured some loathing prejudice against people based purely on where they were born and their accent...


You edited out the laughing emoji, which shows that Editor's dig at the English in Wales was not entirely serious.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Well, having had a look at the issue and read some of the comments of Rhun ap Iorwerth my suggestion for the short term would be to go hard on tourism as lockdown eases. Plenty of scope for attracting domestic tourists and hosting events. Secondly I'd acknowledge that its popularity as a retirement destination has affected local GDP figures, but I'd capitalise on that and aim to attract higher net worth retirees, for example by leveraging the entire-coast AONB (red squirrels! auks!).


There's a big flaw in that argument though: public transport, unless you want encourage more car driving.

Despite years of lobbying, only the west coast line is open, and that's mainly for ferry traffic. Anglesey has a very poor infrastructure and would need substantial investment to turn it into an attractive and practical tourist destination.  I'd love it if it happened of course, but historically it's been a very low priority and even if the funds were available, it would take years.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> There's a big flaw in that argument though: public transport, unless you want encourage more car driving.
> 
> Despite years of lobbying, only the west coast line is open, and that's mainly for ferry traffic. Anglesey has a very poor infrastructure and would need substantial investment to turn it into an attractive and practical tourist destination.  I'd love it if it happened of course, but historically it's been a very low priority and even if the funds were available, it would take years.
> 
> View attachment 255377



More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.

Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally.  Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas.  Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield.  It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.


Absolutely. If they've just got rid of half a million, massive, shit-spewing oil-burners, they can happily handle a bunch of cars. Great trade-off.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

Maggot said:


> You edited out the laughing emoji, which shows that Editor's dig at the English in Wales was not entirely serious.



Other way round - I didn't edit it out, he edited it in...


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally.  Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas.  Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield.  It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.



Already started: Second homes protesters march on Anglesey over 'housing crisis' - recap


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.
> 
> Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.


Did this plan mention abertillery, borth or hawarden?


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I was thinking of the end of the perverse British supply of weapons to countries like Saudi Arabia. The end of overweening British posturing on the international stage and the humanitarian interventions like the one which prompted the massacres in Kosovo or toppled Gaddafi. Not so important perhaps as the rate of the pound and gdp which you prize so highly. but I stand by my view that the end of the United Kingdom with more pacific polities replacing it would be welcomed by much of the rest of the world. The real end of empire. The end of punching above our weight and the myth of the special relationship. The end of the poisonous monarchy. And I hope the beginning of new, respectful, and positive relationships between the peoples of these islands and their neighbours.
> 
> Anyway you seem to be missing that the six counties will be joining the twenty-six at some point. The demography points that way, it is irreversible although the sort of all Ireland state remains to be seen. Brexit is boosting the chances of Scottish independence and real rumblings of Welsh independence are being heard. The UK is unraveling before our eyes.


Yes I would agree we should take a high moral stance in regard of human rights abuses in Saudi & China to name a couple of the main culprits. It is difficult to stop trading with China when even our means of posting on urban is made there though. As for large scale military interventions in other countries I think probably the days of that have passed. I don’t think the British public would be behind it nowadays.

Personally I have always found it odd that NI exists at all. It has always seemed to me that the island of Ireland should exist as one entity. That is how I have always viewed it as somebody who has no Irish connections ?

As I understand it the terms of the GFA state that a border poll can be held when polls look like it can be won which seems fair enough to me. Let the people of NI decide. As for Scotland who knows ? I would be ok with another Indy ref. Again let the people decide.

I was absolutely on board with a second brexit ref. I always thought once a deal had been done there should have been a vote on it. However once our odd system of democracy delivered a huge Tory majority on about 44% of the popular vote I knew it was time to move on.

Everybody’s circumstances are different & many have had their lives anything from seriously inconvenienced to totally wrecked by brexit but for me not much has changed. My only interaction now with the EU is camping trips to France in the summer which I‘m sure I can continue once the Covid thing is done. So I am lucky. Despite being quite upset initially by the brexit vote I am able to move on so I have.

I think wishing bad things to happen to the country we live in is counter productive though. Better to wish bad things to happen to the present government & hope for a better one after next general election.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> More car traffic wouldn’t hurt surely, especially if it supports a retirement and tourist economy, and if the previous lorry traffic was deemed acceptable to support the port jobs.
> 
> Anyway I’ve yet to hear a better plan than mine from any Welsh politicians, although perhaps I missed something. I checked out the “Prosperity for All” Economic Action Plan from the Welsh Government but it didn’t mention Anglesey even once.


But you can't just declare somewhere to be a tourist destination without the infrastructure to make it happen. That means good rail links, hotels, restaurants, shops, attractions and things to do and see. And Anglesey isn't exactly packed full of all those kind of amenities.

And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Already started: Second homes protesters march on Anglesey over 'housing crisis' - recap


The negative impact on the local services by rarely used second homes is well documented. I don't blame the local community fighting about them.  









						Second homes: Communities left 'defenceless' by market forces, councillor says
					

Councillors call for more government action to stop families being "forced to leave".



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Did this plan mention abertillery, borth or hawarden?



They're not the poorest part of Britain set to lose even more jobs thanks to Brexit though are they?


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.


You actually think Anglesey is going to gentrify any time soon?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.



Cornwall's nice


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

Just to give some context to how rural and sparsely populated Anglesey is, here's their 8 biggest towns, two of which count as villages, they're so small.


1Holyhead11,4312Llangefni5,1163Amlwch3,7894Llanfair Mathafarn Eithaf3,3825Menai Bridge3,3766Llanfairpwllgwyngyll3,1077Valley2,361 [1]8Beaumaris1,938 [2]


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## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> You actually think Anglesey is going to gentrify any time soon?


People have said that about lots of run down areas in the past.  But Anglesey has some beautiful landscape, unique wildlife and cheap property.  If you can work from home full time, you may well prefer to do so from an ex-farmhouse in Anglesey rather than a two-bed flat in an increasingly depressing part of London.  And as particular groups start to do it, this will bring the kind of retail and services that these groups enjoy, which will encourage others from the same cohort to do the same -- the classic gentrification spiral.  I don't know that it will be Anglesey that this will happen to (of course), but I can be pretty certain that we'll see it in areas around Britain that were previously considered to be basically employment black spots.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.



Well they do:

Unlike coastal honeypots like Rhosneigr on Anglesey and Abersoch in Gwynedd, which attract more affluent homebuyers, Benllech was a *magnet for recent retirees*, he said. Local services in the village were good, with shops, cafes and a new medical centre. Crucially, said Mr Rowlands, there was also a large stock of bungalows. “That’s what people want when they retire,” he said. “Many of them have spent a lifetime of holidays on Anglesey and have *long-held ambitions of retiring to the island*. They associate Anglesey with happy times, and Benllech has *good facilities for the retirement market.*”


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> They're not the poorest part of Britain set to lose even more jobs thanks to Brexit though are they?


what places does the plan mention then - and you didn't make it clear this was a Britain-wide plan. I thought it dealt solely with Wales


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> ...And I'm not sure why anyone would want to retire to such a deprived rural area with poor transport and poor facilities in an out of the way place in the UK.



Really?

You don't understand why people would like to live in an _achingly _beautiful place that is full of history and archaeology, with relatively low housing prices?

Of course, they could go to Brixton instead, with its _lively _nightlife of being robbed, stabbed or shot, paying half a million quid for some dingy flat, and choking to death on diesel fumes. I mean it's not an _easy _choose to make....

I should have thought of all those property hunting programs that feature retired/semi-retired people: _Escape to the City, City or City, Crack dens for the over-80's...._ Silly me.


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> what places does the plan mention then - and you didn't make it clear this was a Britain-wide plan. I thought it dealt solely with Wales



It did deal soley with Wales, but didn’t mention what is supposedly the poorest region not only in Wales but in the whole of Britain. Im sure there are lots of poor places in Wales which aren’t so poor as to be the pooorest place in Britain, and if it didn’t mention those either then that just highlights how inadequate it is, especially for Anglesey.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> People have said that about lots of run down areas in the past.  But Anglesey has some beautiful landscape, unique wildlife and cheap property.  If you can work from home full time, you may well prefer to do so from an ex-farmhouse in Anglesey rather than a two-bed flat in an increasingly depressing part of London.  And as particular groups start to do it, this will bring the kind of retail and services that these groups enjoy, which will encourage others from the same cohort to do the same -- the classic gentrification spiral.  I don't know that it will be Anglesey that this will happen to (of course), but I can be pretty certain that we'll see it in areas around Britain that were previously considered to be basically employment black spots.


It's extremely rare for isolated, predominantly rural areas with a traditional farming background, small populations, poor transport links and poor infrastructure to be gentrified.

In fact, I can't think of a single instance in the UK. How about you?


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Really?
> 
> You don't understand why people would like to live in an _achingly _beautiful place that is full of history and archaeology, with relatively low housing prices?


Simple question: Why haven't they all moved there already then?  Why is the area so _achingly_ poor? 



kebabking said:


> Of course, they could go to Brixton instead, with its _lively _nightlife of being robbed, stabbed or shot, paying half a million quid for some dingy flat, and choking to death on diesel fumes. I mean it's not an _easy _choose to make....


I've absolutely no idea why you're dredging up this negative, stereotypical view of Brixton into this discussion. Literally none at all. No one has suggested that Brixton would be a suitable retirement home. 

Oh wait. It's because I live there so it's yet more of the completely off topic personal shit.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> It's extremely rare for isolated, predominantly rural areas with a traditional farming background, small populations, poor transport links and poor infrastructure to be gentrified.
> 
> In fact, I can't think of a single instance in the UK. How about you?





kabbes said:


> There is a wider and historically constant issue of what you do to help areas that don't have a lot of local employment generally.  Funny enough, this past year could precipitate some heavy transformation of those areas.  Now that working from home has become normalised, I expect a trend of people increasingly looking to do this from further and further afield.  It wouldn't surprise me to see the spectre of gentrification impacting areas like Anglesey in the future.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

North Yorkshire, Lake District, Snowdonia, Cotswolds - no, I can't think of any poor, very rural, isolated areas with poor public infrastructure being gentrified _at all...._


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> North Yorkshire, Lake District, Snowdonia, Cotswolds - no, I can't think of any poor, very rural, isolated areas with poor public infrastructure being gentrified _at all...._


It appears that you don't actually know what gentrification is:

Gentrification is the "process whereby the character of a poor urban area is changed by wealthier people moving in, improving housing, and attracting new businesses, often displacing current inhabitants in the process."


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> It appears that you don't actually know what gentrification is:
> 
> Gentrification is the "process whereby the character of a poor urban area is changed by wealthier people moving in, improving housing, and attracting new businesses, often displacing current inhabitants in the process."



This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?


Dunno about 3 bed but very tempted by a four bed for £210k


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kebabking said:


> This suggests that you've never been to any of these places - how much is a 3 bed in Betws-y-Coed these days?


That's not gentrification. Do you _really_ not understand what the word means?

Mind you, I could bag a 2 bedroom detached house for £195k there and I could find shitloads cheaper all over Snowdonia, like a 3 bedroom house for £115k in Blaenau Ffestiniog or a £60k end of terrace in Conwy. Are these 'gentrified' prices to you?

Now please read this before posting up any more nonsense about 'gentrification':



> In 1964, Ruth Glass coined the term ‘gentrification’ to describe the changes that were occurring in many urban areas in London at the time, during which ordinary run-down mews and terraced housing were being transformed into housing for the rich.
> 
> Normally masked by the less accurate but slightly more palatable terms ‘urbanisation’ and ‘regeneration’, gentrification actually describes a brutal and often violent process – the displacement of local working-class people and the destruction of the communities that bind them together, irrevocably altering the social character of the place in question.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Dunno about 3 bed but very tempted by a four bed for £210k


You can pick up a three-floor,  four bedroom semi-detached in the heart of Blaenau Ffestiniog in 'gentrified' Snowdonia for just £79k if you're really strapped for cash. Looks nice too.











						Check out this 4 bedroom property for sale on Rightmove
					

4 bedroom property for sale in Church Street, Blaenau Ffestiniog, Gwynedd, LL41 for £79,000. Marketed by Beresford Adams, Porthmadog




					www.rightmove.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Feb 21, 2021)

editor said:


> It appears that you don't actually know what gentrification is:
> 
> Gentrification is the "process whereby the character of a poor *urban* area is changed by wealthier people moving in, improving housing, and attracting new businesses, often displacing current inhabitants in the process."



I don't see any reason why the word should be used exclusively in an urban context.

And it's certainly the case that the areas kebabking have been affected by something which only a pedant could argue wasn't effectively gentrification.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't see any reason why the word should be used exclusively in an urban context.


Oh, OK. So the idea is that people can just totally change the accepted meaning of words after they've been used incorrectly?

But if  a gentrified neighbourhood can offer four bedroom semi detached houses in the centre of town for just £79k, I'll have to change my opinion about the process.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 21, 2021)

As somebody who keeps a very close eye on house prices across Snowdonia, I can tell you that its housing market has neatly bifurcated.  There are areas that the incomers don’t want to live in, which are still incredibly cheap.  And there are the areas that incomers want to move to, retire to or have second homes in, and these have become insanely expensive.  This is creating a problem for long-term rural families in the area, because the places popular with incomers tend to be of the housing stock that would traditionally have been places they would have raised a family.  Yes, you can still buy a shop in Dolgellau for next to nothing but the four bedroom place on the outskirts of the town or up into the foothills of Cadairr or the Rhinogydds will now cost an amount that local families are never going to be able to afford.  This creates a ghettoisation that to deny is a form of gentrification takes a particular focus to achieve.

Even this is slightly missing the point, though.  The type of gentrification that I am speculating about is something _new_ owing to a _dislocation in working practices_.  To look for examples of it in existing population movements is to misunderstand how this kind of abrupt shift works.  Nothing exists until it exists, then it can rapidly become pervasive.  In the same way that the popularity of the motor car brought with it new ways of consumption and working (such as dormer villages and out of town shopping centres), the popularity of home working is likely to bring new patterns of living accommodation.


----------



## editor (Feb 21, 2021)

kabbes said:


> As somebody who keeps a very close eye on house prices across Snowdonia, I can tell you that its housing market has neatly bifurcated.  There are areas that the incomers don’t want to live in, which are still incredibly cheap.  And there are the areas that incomers want to move to, retire to or have second homes in, and these have become insanely expensive.  This is creating a problem for long-term rural families in the area, because the places popular with incomers tend to be of the housing stock that would traditionally have been places they would have raised a family.  Yes, you can still buy a shop in Dolgellau for next to nothing but the four bedroom place on the outskirts of the town or up into the foothills of Cadairr or the Rhinogydds will now cost an amount that local families are never going to be able to afford.  This creates a ghettoisation that to deny is a form of gentrification takes a particular focus to achieve.
> 
> Even this is slightly missing the point, though.  The type of gentrification that I am speculating about is something _new_ owing to a _dislocation in working practices_.  To look for examples of it in existing population movements is to misunderstand how this kind of abrupt shift works.  Nothing exists until it exists, then it can rapidly become pervasive.  In the same way that the popularity of the motor car brought with it new ways of consumption and working (such as dormer villages and out of town shopping centres), the popularity of home working is likely to bring new patterns of living accommodation.


So which towns in Snowdonia would you describe as being gentrified (using the commonly accepted meaning of the process, which involves poor neighbourhoods being displaced by well off incomers, local businesses being priced out by new on-trend shops, escalating rents and a proliferation of trendy, upmarket, unaffordable new businesses?)

The existence of lovely Victorian mansions and high quality homes in beautiful settings miles away from the town centres is utterly irrelevant to this debate.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2021)

What has become of this thread?
Just seems beset by division, acrimony and discord, now...


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What has become of this thread?
> Just seems beset by division, acrimony and discord, now...


#urbanatitsfinest


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> What has become of this thread?
> Just seems beset by division, acrimony and discord, now...



These boards would be dull as ditchwater if it weren’t for Brexit, Ed should be rejoicing it, reckon he’s on longtroll...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> These boards would be dull as ditchwater if it weren’t for Brexit, Ed should be rejoicing it, reckon he’s on longtroll...


Currently 119 threads with the word Brexit in their title.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2021)

Who's winning?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Who's winning?


Unlikely as it may once have seemed, Boris Johnson is winning.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 21, 2021)

Kieth's second though


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Who's winning?


Dunno, but we're all getting over it...obvs.


----------



## Supine (Feb 21, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Who's winning?



The French


----------



## platinumsage (Feb 22, 2021)

Another benefit:

News today that five people have died and hundreds seriously ill, mostly children, thanks to salmonella chicken from Poland. Now we’ll be able to seek a trade deal with countries that sanitise their chicken in chlorine, thus saving lives.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Now we’ll be able to seek a trade deal with countries that sanitise their chicken in chlorine, thus saving lives.


As long as we don't have to import their peaches Wawona Peaches with Salmonella sickened over 150


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 22, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Another benefit:
> 
> News today that five people have died and hundreds seriously ill, mostly children, thanks to salmonella chicken from Poland. Now we’ll be able to seek a trade deal with countries that sanitise their chicken in chlorine, thus saving lives.




Shocking stuff.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 22, 2021)

Posted in the Census thread:

Meanwhile some remainer/rejoiner folks are encouraging like-minded types to declare their 'national identity' as European.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Posted in the Census thread:
> 
> Meanwhile some remainer/rejoiner folks are encouraging like-minded types to declare their 'national identity' as European.
> 
> View attachment 255685


I have no idea what difference they think that will make other than focusing efforts on pointless gestures.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 22, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I have no idea what difference they think that will make other than focusing efforts on pointless gestures.


Once we have successfully established "European" as a legally recognised identity, then we can begin to work on getting our red passports back.


----------



## gosub (Feb 22, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I have no idea what difference they think that will make other than focusing efforts on pointless gestures.


What I always found a bit off about the Nuremburg trials is that they gave the translation job to IBM, same company that helped organise the 33 & 39 German censuses


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2021)

Our glorious future:


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

oh no! will nobody think of our status!


----------



## gosub (Feb 23, 2021)

I suppose if they'd included things like NATO, G8 and UN security council it would have been too hard to draw.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 23, 2021)

UK should be "Britain" btw.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> I suppose if they'd included things like NATO, G8 and UN security council it would have been too hard to draw.


And wouldn’t have been a diagram about trade/freedoms of movement.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 23, 2021)

Reminds me of a cartoon in Private Eye in the 80s after England cricket team had performed dismally just after Gooch resigned as  captain. It had picture of cricket field with all the positions marked and down in the corner was a little rain cloud labelled "Gooch's gloomy place".


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> UK should be "Britain" btw.


Technically _Great Britain _if we’re going by the terminology of the state’s legal distinction rather than land mass?


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Our glorious future:
> 
> View attachment 255702


To the UK on that you could add most other countries in the rest of the world. How many ordinary people will be bothered by this though ? The general attitude now seems to be we are where we are just get on with it. Brexit is done. For most UK people their only connection with life outside UK is holidays & once the Covid thing is over then holidays in Spain & so on will be back on. It might take another 10mins at the airport.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

editor said:


> Our glorious future:
> 
> View attachment 255702



its been said on this thread in the last week it would be impossible for the UK to be in the EU customs union without also subscribing to freedom of movement - that's not true, we could've been in the Turkey zone on that diagram. Customs Union seemed a minimum.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> To the UK on that you could add most other countries in the rest of the world. How many ordinary people will be bothered by this though ?


You could, but then it wouldn't be a diagram showing the UK's relationship to the European Union, its monetary union, its custom union, trade areas or wider FoM zones.

The diagram posted by editor seems to have ruffled some feathers!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 23, 2021)

How are San Marino and Andorra not in the Schengen Zone? They are not part of it but have no borders with it either, weird.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How are San Marino and Andorra not in the Schengen Zone?


Though not formally so, I believe they have open borders with the surpratstate in practice.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 23, 2021)

Neither Andorra nor San Marino has any form of border control. They are both tiny towns.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Neither Andorra nor San Marino has any form of border control. They are both tiny towns.


From Wiki



> *Andorra* is landlocked and does not have an airport or seaport, but there are several heliports. Visitors to the country can only gain access by road or helicopter through Schengen members France or Spain. Andorra maintains border controls with both France and Spain. There are border controls in the other direction also, but these are more focused on customs control (Andorra has considerably lower taxes than its neighbours, with for example a standard VAT rate of just 4.5%). Andorra does not have any visa requirements. Citizens of EU countries need either a national identity card or passport to enter Andorra, while anyone else requires a passport or equivalent. Schengen visas are accepted,but those travellers who need a visa to enter the Schengen Area need a multiple-entry visa to visit Andorra, because entering Andorra means leaving the Schengen Area, and reentering France or Spain is considered a new entry into the Schengen Area. Andorran citizens do not receive a passport stamp when they enter and leave the Schengen Area.
> 
> As of 2015, Andorra, Monaco and San Marino were negotiating an Association Agreement with the EU. Andorra's ambassador to Spain, Jaume Gaytán, has said that he hopes that the agreement will include provisions to make the states associate members of the Schengen Agreement.



Andorra customs post with Spain:


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> its been said on this thread in the last week it would be impossible for the UK to be in the EU customs union without also subscribing to freedom of movement - that's not true, we could've been in the Turkey zone on that diagram. Customs Union seemed a minimum.


Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.

Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Freedom of movement of goods, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.
> 
> Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Of trade, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.


Or, as they used to say..._Brexit means Brexit._


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> To the UK on that you could add most other countries in the rest of the world. How many ordinary people will be bothered by this though ? The general attitude now seems to be we are where we are just get on with it. Brexit is done. For most UK people their only connection with life outside UK is holidays & once the Covid thing is over then holidays in Spain & so on will be back on. It might take another 10mins at the airport.


Define 'ordinary' in this context. 

Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people. 

It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.


----------



## Cerv (Feb 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> I suppose if they'd included things like NATO, G8 and UN security council it would have been too hard to draw.


quite hard. you'd need to go 3D to include time. the G8 hasn't existed since 2014


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Do some reading & you will see that Turkey is in a customs union with EU but not in the single market. Norway is in single market but not customs union. Trade is not frictionless for either of the 2 countries. There are long queues of trucks at the Turkey EU border. EU trucks driving from Sweden into Norway take on average 20mins to do paperwork at border but not an issue as traffic volumes are low.
> 
> Point is both these countries have arrangements that suit them but UK is not those countries. For the UK only thing that would allow frictionless trade & everything else as it was before is for the UK to retain membership of both single market & customs union ie the 4 freedoms. Freedom of movement of goods, of finance, of services & labour. From a brexit ideological pov this is worse than EU membership. From the EU ideological pov the 4 freedoms are indivisible.


thanks ive done some reading
if we take no freedom of movement as a red line (which i dont personally), then a form of arrangement that Turkey has would be preferable to what we have now. The nature of that customs union wouldve been open to negotiation - it neednt mirror Turkey exactly, but even what Turkey has is better than where we are now.

The reason we dont have it is our Buckaneer rulers still dream of a new global empire and deregulation with it - "new deals" must be struck.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> From Wiki



Interesting. But that can in practice be avoided if you take the unpaved road via Tor-Norìs-Alins (bit of a mission, but if someone really wanted to enter Andorra without the 1 in a billion chance that they bother stopping you to check your documents, which I can assure you almost NEVER happens unless your car doesn't have a Euro numberplate or something.... they could)


----------



## mojo pixy (Feb 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people.
> 
> It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.



It might be class prejudice from someone sneering at it as ''patronising'' but for people who actually lived it it's just .. lived experience.

Stop _gaslighting_, it's ugly and pointless.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> thanks ive done some reading
> if we take no freedom of movement as a red line (which i dont personally), then a form of arrangement that Turkey has would be preferable to what we have now. The nature of that customs union wouldve been open to negotiation - it neednt mirror Turkey exactly, but even what Turkey has is better than where we are now.
> 
> The reason we dont have it is our Buckaneer rulers still dream of a new global empire and deregulation with it - "new deals" must be struck.


They may dream of that but I think that ship has sailed. I think people want better public services & they do not want US food imports or the US buying the NHS. So the Tories are basically fucked & it will be interesting see how they manage the next 3 & a bit years. The voters that gave them their majority want Keynesianism I would have thought ?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> They may dream of that but I think that ship has sailed. I think people want better public services & they do not want US food imports or the US buying the NHS. So the Tories are basically fucked & it will be interesting see how they manage the next 3 & a bit years. The voters that gave them their majority want Keynesianism I would have thought ?


Its not sailed, Bexit has only just begun.

We've just applied to be part of this:








						UK applies to join huge Pacific free trade area CPTPP
					

The UK is formally applying to join one of the world’s largest free-trade areas, deepening trade ties with some of the fastest-growing markets in the world




					www.gov.uk
				





Then theres the US deal. Biden has HOPEFULLY crippled the scary NHS sell off Liam Fox had arranged with Trump, though lets see what happens under Biden. If his presidency has made a difference then its just a matter of time till theres another Republican-Tory alignment.

Other deals are going on in the background.

The Tories are basically not fucked. Labour are fucked.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 23, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Technically _Great Britain _


Exactly how good it is remains to be seen.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 23, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Exactly how good it is remains to be seen.



It's great as in big, compared to Little Britain (Brittany in France)


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

Found this interesting. Clear trajectory post Brexit albeit within the limitations of polling. Obviously, issues like Brexit and the concern about the NHS during covid would have pushed this issue down. On the other hand, there's a couple of issues, like the Channel migrants and the lockdown/close the borders to keep the virus out lobby that I would have thought might have had more of an impact.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Define 'ordinary' in this context.
> 
> Quite a bit of the rhetoric on here seems to focus on the supposedly limited horizons and aspirations of a bunch of other people.
> 
> It's pretty patronising. In other contexts it might be called class prejudice.


No I don’t think so. Plenty of people live all their lives in the town where they were born. They get good jobs or start businesses & earn good money or they might be less well off & just get by. They have families, kids & relatives nearby that they love & care about. They enjoy their lives. Some people enjoy holidays in the UK some like to go abroad others are happy to have a week off work & paint their houses. There is nothing wrong with any of that.

Certainly some will sneer at ordinary people living ordinary lives but I have only ever led an ordinary life. I have travelled all around this country & quite a few countries in Europe but mostly behind the wheel of a truck. If I had not been a truck driver I probably would not have travelled anywhere except on holiday. Most people only get 4 weeks holiday pa. There is nothing wrong with the quiet life if that is what you want. I guess even millionaire rock stars live quite ordinary lives most of the time taking their kids to school & so on. They just drive better cars.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> It's great as in big, compared to Little Britain (Brittany in France)


I read somewhere once that this is a common misconception, but I can't remember the details.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Found this interesting. Clear trajectory post Brexit albeit within the limitations of polling. Obviously, issues like Brexit and the concern about the NHS during covid would have pushed this issue down. On the other hand, there's a couple of issues, like the Channel migrants and the lockdown/close the borders to keep the virus out lobby that I would have thought might have had more of an impact.
> 
> View attachment 255739


would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press


Someone said that on Twitter


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Someone said that on Twitter



I've seen a similar thing about anti-EU sentiment. It wasn't an issue for people until "the press" made it so. The graph for concern about the EU goes up and up from a starting point of next to non-existent.
Obviously UKIP can take huge credit for that.
Recently was said on this thread The Brexit Campaigns Were Irrelevant - This Is How People Really Felt All Along - nonsense, UKIP has been the most effective political campaigning group, and of course having large sections of the press totally onside helped no end.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Certainly some will sneer at ordinary people living ordinary lives but I have only ever led an ordinary life. I have travelled all around this country & quite a few countries in Europe but mostly behind the wheel of a truck. If I had not been a truck driver I probably would not have travelled anywhere except on holiday.


This is an example of what I mean. 'I'm ordinary, but I'm an exception because of the X, Y, Z particulars of my life.' That's also a bit of a theme. But we all have X, Y, Z particulars in our lives.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I've seen a similar thing about anti-EU sentiment. It wasn't an issue for people until "the press" made it so. The graph for concern about the EU goes up and up from a starting point of next to non-existent.
> Obviously UKIP can take huge credit for that.
> Recently was said on this thread The Brexit Campaigns Were Irrelevant - This Is How People Really Felt All Along - nonsense, UKIP has been the most effective political campaigning group, and of course having large sections of the press totally onside helped no end.


20 years of relentless immigrant-bashing from the Daily Express can't have hurt.


----------



## editor (Feb 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> would be interesting to map that on a timeline of the use of the word IMMIGRANTS in the UK press


Some depressing facts


> While Germany (91.0%) and Sweden (75.3%) overwhelmingly used the terms “refugee” or “asylum seeker”, in Spain the most widely (67.1%) used term was “immigrant” and in Britain (54.2%) and Italy (35.8%) the word was “migrant”.





> In the EU press, the negative commentary on refugees and migrants usually only consists of a reported sentence or two from a citizen or far-right politician – which is often then challenged within the article by a journalist or another source. In the British right-wing press, however, anti-refugee and migrant themes are continuously reinforced through the angles taken in stories, editorials and comment pieces.











						UK press is the most aggressive in reporting on Europe's 'migrant' crisis
					

Public opinion has been polarised by the way newspapers are covering this story.




					theconversation.com


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> 20 years of relentless immigrant-bashing from the Daily Express can't have hurt.


the express, the mail, the telegraph, the sun and the times
anti immigrant and also anti eu
its almost as if this is a right wing political project


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 23, 2021)

discokermit said:


> so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.


no its not a phantom -  the press and UKIP raised consciousness of the dangers of the EU and MIGRANTS and the public made their decision once the referendum finally came around

this is what campaigning and media communication is all about, its what countless left organisations try and do to.

in this case its a rightwing establishment campaign though


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 23, 2021)




----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 23, 2021)

discokermit said:


> so, peoples lived experiences had nothing to do with it? the whole thing just a phantom of the press based on nothing? lol.


Nobody said that, did they? One of the saddest aspects of this is the way that people's lived experiences were linked by the anti-immigrants to immigration - the lived experiences of struggles to get housing or a job or a pay rise being blamed on immigrants. I think it's naive to pretend this wasn't a significant factor both in the referendum and in Boris Johnson's victory last year. He wasn't just randomly touring the North East of England spouting anti-Pole rhetoric.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Certainly some will sneer at ordinary people living ordinary lives but I have only ever led an ordinary life. I


but in what ways has it been average?


----------



## philosophical (Feb 23, 2021)

So for the land border in Ireland that brexit voters voted for by dint of the word 'leave', what has happened to their proposed  assured 'technological' solution with cameras, checks away from the border, trusted trader schemes, smart number plate recognition and all that previously suggested malarkey?
I know that supposedly the (rapidly failing) border in the Irish sea is supposed to do the trick, but what is the fall back option when that finally fails?
No differentiation between the UK and the dreadful migrant drowning big business capitalist celebrating EU?
There was a time when the brexit bastards were all about the technological solution.
It's gone a bit quiet, when mankind can put a vehicle on Mars with all that technological demand, but brexit voters can't follow through with their technological solution to the land border between the UK and the EU.


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> but in what ways has it been average?


he didnt say average, he said ordinary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

discokermit said:


> he didnt say average, he said ordinary.


Well spotted.

He and I were discussing average earlier and it never got any further than his mayism average means average and I hope to tease out a bit more what he means when he talks about eg the average brexit voter.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> but in what ways has it been average?


My guitar playing skills were only average so I never became the rock star I could have been. So I became an average truck driver. Back in the day my mate got a job with Edwin Shirley Trucking touring all over Europe with bands transporting their gear between gigs. In truck driving world that was regarded as above average.


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Nobody said that, did they? One of the saddest aspects of this is the way that people's lived experiences were linked by the anti-immigrants to immigration - the lived experiences of struggles to get housing or a job or a pay rise being blamed on immigrants. I think it's naive to pretend this wasn't a significant factor both in the referendum and in Boris Johnson's victory last year. He wasn't just randomly touring the North East of England spouting anti-Pole rhetoric.


my lived experience was being on fifteen quid an hour, then the company owner decided to buy some houses near the works then recruit in hungary and house them himself, so he could pay less, take some back as rent and excercise control over them. then he shut down the works, made everyone redundant, then started up again with new people on less money.
this sort of thing started happening everywhere. i got a job in a big place on eight pound forty an hour, a few people who had been there decades were on twelve pound an hour but they had been reducing the wages of new starters since they had opened a recruitment agency in poland.
nobody blamed the immigrants, they were our friends and workmates, we all blamed our bosses, but voting brexit is the only way we could do anything about it. still, we're just brainwashed thickos.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Well spotted.
> 
> He and I were discussing average earlier and it never got any further than his mayism average means average and I hope to tease out a bit more what he means when he talks about eg the average brexit voter.


My neighbour. Outside this morning washing his car. Retired. Enjoys foreign holidays except now of course. Absolutely on board with brexit. Smiles, says philosophically “well of course they were always going to punish us. Fuck’ em“. An average & an ordinary brexit voter around where I live.

You do make me laugh pickers. You don’t need to tease anything out. By ordinary & average I mean like my neighbour, me & of course you. It’s I how I see it. Others may see it differently but I am not them or you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> My guitar playing skills were only average so I never became the rock star I could have been. So I became an average truck driver. Back in the day my mate got a job with Edwin Shirley Trucking touring all over Europe with bands transporting their gear between gigs. In truck driving world that was regarded as above average.


Have you had the average number of accidents and points on your licence? If you were average on the guitar you were by definition better than half of all guitarists - so better than many in bands, better than most rock stars. Perhaps what held you back wasn't your skill on the guitar.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> My neighbour. Outside this morning washing his car. Retired. Enjoys foreign holidays except now of course. Absolutely on board with brexit. Smiles, says philosophically “well of course they were always going to punish us. Fuck’ em“. An average & an ordinary brexit voter around where I live.
> 
> You do make me laugh pickers. You don’t need to tease anything out. By ordinary & average I mean like my neighbour, me & of course you. It’s I how I see it. Others may see it differently but I am not them or you.


I may make you laugh but I am not Pickers


----------



## two sheds (Feb 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> So for the land border in Ireland that brexit voters voted for by dint of the word 'leave', what has happened to their proposed  assured 'technological' solution with cameras, checks away from the border, trusted trader schemes, smart number plate recognition and all that previously suggested malarkey?


There just wasn't time to do it. They've only had five years ffs


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Have you had the average number of accidents and points on your licence? If you were average on the guitar you were by definition better than half of all guitarists - so better than many in bands, better than most rock stars. Perhaps what held you back wasn't your skill on the guitar.


Depends on your era. I was up against Page & Clapton not so much Steve Jones. I did not want to be an average guitarist I wanted to be Eric Clapton. I had the tee shirt. “Clapton is God” Eric once shouted from the stage “I‘m not God I’m just a bleedin’ musician”. I begged to differ though.  I would think yes I have had the average amount accidents & points on my licence.

Anyway Pickers. Enough about me. Tell us about your life. Do you think it is special ? How old are you. What job do you do ?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 23, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Neither Andorra nor San Marino has any form of border control. They are both tiny towns.




Andorra does, it also has a VAT rate of just 4% which upsets the EU who insist that stuff sold by Andorran companies to the EU must be sold from the EU (France mostly).


----------



## belboid (Feb 23, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you were average on the guitar you were by definition better than half of all guitarists


I don’t think you mean that but maybe it’s just the mode I’m in.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 23, 2021)

If people are genuinely interested in how newspapers represented immigrants over the time period, this is part of a post I made on December 10 that includes a detailed statistical study in exactly that thing.


kabbes said:


> This is a study of 50,000 articles about immigration from 2011-2016 in The Guardian, The Telegraph and The Sun.  Long story short, it definitely shows a few important points: firstly, all newspapers increasingly concentrated on EU immigrants over their previous focus, which was "illegal" immigrants.  Secondly, they transferred their stigmas of "illegal" immigrants over to EU immigrants and Eastern European immigrants in particular, calling on orientalist stereotypes to do so.  They also managed to tie EU membership and the Calais crisis together.  There are lots of other things in that paper that I could discuss, but for this purpose, that's the meat.
> 
> However, evidence that newspapers did this is not quite the same as evidence that this was the critical point in people's minds.  This is a study that looks at how people understood the relationship between Britain and Europe during the critical period.  It also found "Eastern vs Western Europe" as a theme, which indicates to me that some of that newspaper work stuck.  However, just as importantly, it found three completely different representations in peoples' minds of what constituted the relationship.  These representations were strongly linked to geography and social status, meaning that it isn't as straightforward as "immigration=bad".  There were even two very different leaver representations: one of "global Britain vs little Europe" that had an internationist bent, and one of "Europe as cultural threat" that was a more nationist concern of having Britishness overwhelmed by Europe.


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

just to add, when i say we were all mates, there was some friction at the one place where the hungarian lads kept saying things like "whats up my n******!" to black workmates which ended after threats of south london yardie gangs and people on both sides and neither, getting tooled up with machetes.
also the only people i have ever heard describe themselves at work as white supremacist and anti semitic quite openly, apart from wayne the murderer from west brom, were polish and hungarian.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Depends on your era. I was up against Page & Clapton not so much Steve Jones. I did not want to be an average guitarist I wanted to be Eric Clapton. I had the tee shirt. “Clapton is God” Eric once shouted from the stage “I‘m not God I’m just a bleedin’ musician”. I begged to differ though.  I would think yes I have had the average amount accidents & points on my licence.
> 
> Anyway Pickers. Enough about me. Tell us about your life. Do you think it is special ? How old are you. What job do you do ?


you should ask pickers about their life. of course my life's special - to me. i doubt it is to many other people. i've no interest in your age - and i've never said mine here either. i work part-time in a medical library, nothing that special.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 23, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Depends on your era. I was up against Page & Clapton not so much Steve Jones. I did not want to be an average guitarist I wanted to be Eric Clapton. I had the tee shirt. “Clapton is God” Eric once shouted from the stage “I‘m not God I’m just a bleedin’ musician”. I begged to differ though.







			
				Eric Clapton said:
			
		

> Do we have any foreigners in the audience tonight? If so, please put up your hands … So where are you? Well wherever you all are, I think you should all just leave. Not just leave the hall, leave our country … I don’t want you here, in the room or in my country. Listen to me, man! I think we should send them all back. Stop Britain from becoming a black colony. Get the foreigners out. Get the wogs out. Get the coons out. Keep Britain white … The black wogs and coons and Arabs and fucking Jamaicans don’t belong here, we don’t want them here. This is England, this is a white country, we don’t want any black wogs and coons living here. We need to make clear to them they are not welcome. England is for white people, man … This is Great Britain, a white country, what is happening to us, for fuck’s sake? … Throw the wogs out! Keep Britain white!


----------



## discokermit (Feb 23, 2021)

discokermit said:


> my lived experience was being on fifteen quid an hour, then the company owner decided to buy some houses near the works then recruit in hungary and house them himself, so he could pay less, take some back as rent and excercise control over them. then he shut down the works, made everyone redundant, then started up again with new people on less money.
> this sort of thing started happening everywhere. i got a job in a big place on eight pound forty an hour, a few people who had been there decades were on twelve pound an hour but they had been reducing the wages of new starters since they had opened a recruitment agency in poland.
> nobody blamed the immigrants, they were our friends and workmates, we all blamed our bosses, but voting brexit is the only way we could do anything about it. still, we're just brainwashed thickos.


the place where i was on fifteen quid an hour, i tried unionising. we had a meeting with a fulltimer from gmb, management monitored the meeting and some of them followed people home to dissuade and/or threaten them. the next day at work the owner treatened us all with the sack and closure of the place. everyone shit themselves and that was the end of that.
a couple of weeks later i had a row with the works director, called him and the owner lying cunts, which ended with me being physically restrained while he ran off into the offices. i left and only went back months later, after it had shut down anyway, to get my tools and was monitored by the new hungarian foreman/recruitng agent so i didnt steal anything.
ah well, bosmeg.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 23, 2021)

belboid said:


> I don’t think you mean that but maybe it’s just the mode I’m in.


Where do you fit in if you play a mean guitar?


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

Just on a bit of observation Holland for example does seem to be better at preventing migrant workers from Eastern Europe being exploited by enforcing a level playing field with local workers. An example was a Dutch construction company charged Romanian workers for accommodation straight out of their wages. Illegal apparently in Holland & the firm was ordered to refund the workers. Also roadside car washes would not be allowed to exist in Holland or France either.

It has always been in the remit of a UK government both Labour & Tory to prevent the exploitation of EU migrant workers but they have not only failed to do that but allowed UK companies to build entire business models around employing only migrant Labour.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 23, 2021)

Yes Bahnhof Strasse  I did become aware later that Clapton was a right wing racist git. He enjoyed hunting I think & drove Ferraris around the M25 while out of his tree. But as a teenager I just listened to Disraeli Gears & wanted to be a rock star.


----------



## Supine (Feb 23, 2021)

Index of jobs lost. Death by a thousand cuts.









						The Digby Jones Index
					

If you have found your way to this page looking for the Digby Jones Index, it has now been updated




					yorkshirebylines.co.uk


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2021)

Supine said:


> Index of jobs lost. Death by a thousand cuts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a depressing read.


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2021)

Interesting opinion piece: 



> Brexit has dismantled the institutional platform on which that drama used to be played, but it does not change the economic and strategic dynamics. The UK still needs things from Brussels, but it has lost the leverage it had from a seat at the EU summit table. This makes it harder for Boris Johnson to play the old double game of public belligerence and private compromise. (On that score, EU membership was the way previous prime ministers used to have their cake and eat it.)











						Brexit is a machine to generate perpetual grievance. It's doing its job perfectly | Rafael Behr
					

The story of plucky Britain standing up to bullying Brussels spares leavers the discomfort of admitting they voted for a con, says Guardian columnist Rafael Behr




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Interesting opinion piece:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ironic coming from a paper that thrives on indignation and grievances but never, in reality, either fights its corner or gets a result


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ironic coming from a paper that thrives on indignation and grievances but never, in reality, either fights its corner or gets a result


And that is pretty much a text book example of the ad hominem fallacy being employed.


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Ironic coming from a paper that thrives on indignation and grievances but never, in reality, either fights its corner or gets a result


Yes I liked that article. I think Rafael Behr is one of their better writers. It suggests the UK right wing plan to stay in power involves pushing the narrative of the plucky little underdog UK permanently at war with the big bully EU. If Labour then try to push the line that closer ties with the EU maybe rejoining the customs union/single market will bring jobs & better opportunities the right can then counter that as unpatriotic.

It does show what Labour is up against here. To me it is pointless them pushing any sort of pro EU agenda. They need to concentrate on showing how they will improve social & public services & provide affordable housing. It will be helped along if by the next ge the Tories have completely failed to deliver on any of their promises.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 24, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> Yes I liked that article. I think Rafael Behr is one of their better writers. It suggests the UK right wing plan to stay in power involves pushing the narrative of the plucky little underdog UK permanently at war with the big bully EU. If Labour then try to push the line that closer ties with the EU maybe rejoining the customs union/single market will bring jobs & better opportunities the right can then counter that as unpatriotic.
> 
> It does show what Labour is up against here. To me it is pointless them pushing any sort of pro EU agenda. They need to concentrate on showing how they will improve social & public services & provide affordable housing. It will be helped along if by the next ge the Tories have completely failed to deliver on any of their promises.


I agree, that's what some of the article's narrative is. Johnson and the Tories will want to push the getting Brexit done against all odds not just the EU but the attempts by Labour and the Liberals to stop  Brexit. I imagine they will also push getting the vaccine done. The more rigid the EU is the more they are portrayed as the problem rather than the deal or Brexit itself. On the ultra remain side, the narrative of life outside the EU won't be worth living, and I told you so won't cut it. As you say the debate has to shift to what sort of post Brexit Britain is possible and to hold the Tories to account over the economy.The Guardian might possibly have some comments on the latter but will contribute absolutely nothing to the former.


----------



## philosophical (Feb 24, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I agree, that's what some of the article's narrative is. Johnson and the Tories will want to push the getting Brexit done against all odds not just the EU but the attempts by Labour and the Liberals to stop  Brexit. I imagine they will also push getting the vaccine done. The more rigid the EU is the more they are portrayed as the problem rather than the deal or Brexit itself. On the ultra remain side, the narrative of life outside the EU won't be worth living, and I told you so won't cut it. As you say the debate has to shift to what sort of post Brexit Britain is possible and to hold the Tories to account over the economy.The Guardian might possibly have some comments on the latter but will contribute absolutely nothing to the former.



Brexit as voted for is a long way from getting done.
Because it does not treat all parts of the UK equally, and no differentiation was suggested on the ballot paper.
Something has happened, but not brexit in terms of the whole country, nor 'leave' in terms of the land border between the UK and the EU.
You can presumably only have a post brexit Britain (do you mean the United Kingdom?) if you have brexit first.


----------



## editor (Feb 24, 2021)

Looks like the Isle Of Man is off!









						The Isle of Man's opt-out from UK's disastrous fishing agreement with EU
					

The London Economic - In 2019 Boris Johnson used Isle of Man kippers to claim the EU was behind 'pointless and damaging' red tape - News




					www.thelondoneconomic.com


----------



## steeplejack (Feb 24, 2021)

editor said:


> Looks like the Isle Of Man is off!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looking forward to Scotland being humiliated in Douglas at some point in the future in a World Cup Qualifier


----------



## teuchter (Feb 24, 2021)

> the current ban on so-called bivalve molluscs



So-called? Is there some controversy that I am unaware of?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 24, 2021)

"*Boris Johnson calls for eat British fish campaign"*

" Labour said it also wanted people to eat more British fish "


----------



## Maggot (Feb 24, 2021)

Are any of our new trade deals better than the ones we had whilst in the EU?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 24, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Are any of our new trade deals better than the ones we had whilst in the EU?



Seems we may no longer be subjected to the EU’s chicken.


----------



## zahir (Feb 24, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Seems we may no longer be subjected to the EU’s chicken.




This ought to be the case but it seems that for now the government hasn't got it together to control imports of salmonella infected chicken nuggets from Poland:
Brexit: good for the gander


> As for the UK, owing to the epic incompetence of the British government which has failed to prepare for the end of the transition period, there are no facilities for inspecting (or sampling) incoming Polish chicken, which is allowed entry unchecked. Not until 1 July of this year will routine checks be carried out, assuming the necessary border control posts have been built, and the staff are available.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 24, 2021)

Yummy.


----------



## gosub (Feb 25, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Are any of our new trade deals better than the ones we had whilst in the EU?


Well the new one with the EU doesn't involve giving Farage any tax payers money


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 25, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "*Boris Johnson calls for eat British fish campaign"*
> 
> " Labour said it also wanted people to eat more British fish "



"Eat Hake for a Clean Break?"


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 25, 2021)

Nothing wrong with Hake or Herring. It annoys me that smoked herring very cheap can be found on supermarket shelves in Holland & France but not in the UK. It will have been caught in UK waters.  I love it. Goes well with salad or just cooked veg. Smoked mackerel can be found in UK shops ok. All good stuff. Oily fish.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "Eat Hake for a Clean Break?"


"Eat lots of snapper, or Britain will get crapper."


----------



## Flavour (Feb 25, 2021)

Eat our mackerel, or some other fucker will


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 25, 2021)

Raheem said:


> "Eat lots of snapper, or Britain will get crapper."



"Get some mullet down your gullet - Brexit's here, you can't annul it."


----------



## ska invita (Feb 25, 2021)

Nice to see fish order returned to the thread


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

"We got a shitty deal, so scoff a pound of eel."


----------



## ElizabethofYork (Feb 25, 2021)

Neck some cod, you stupid sod.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

And don't forget the hake, for Jesus' sake.


----------



## stdP (Feb 25, 2021)

We've dropped a bollock, so scoff some pollock.


----------



## Supine (Feb 25, 2021)

It's selfish not to eat shell fish


----------



## philosophical (Feb 25, 2021)

Don't have fish
on your dish.
Leave them be
in the sea.


----------



## 2hats (Feb 25, 2021)

Accept your fate and eat some skate.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 25, 2021)

There's nothing moister than a British oyster


----------



## Raheem (Feb 25, 2021)

"I've got myself in such a rut now I'm hyping halibut."


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Feb 25, 2021)

We're taking back control, so poach yourself a Dover sole.


----------



## Supine (Feb 25, 2021)

A nation of dog fish lovers


----------



## ska invita (Feb 25, 2021)




----------



## Elpenor (Feb 25, 2021)

Eat this freshly battered coley
with mushy peas, not guacamole


----------



## stdP (Feb 25, 2021)

Get this in your hippocampi:
It's no longer langoustine, it's scampi


----------



## Cerv (Feb 25, 2021)

are they making sausages out of old soldiers? better than horse I guess


----------



## stdP (Feb 25, 2021)

In soveriegnty, no need for fashions
We'll starve like kings on lobster rations


----------



## TopCat (Feb 26, 2021)

Dover Sole was a third cheaper in Deptford Market this week. I filleted some and served with a white wine sauce with a few mussels. 
Chablis still costs a tenner in Lidl though.


----------



## Supine (Feb 26, 2021)

Arch brexiteers hate the deal


----------



## tommers (Feb 26, 2021)

EU accused of destroying UK!!


----------



## Cerv (Feb 26, 2021)

Supine said:


> Arch brexiteers hate the deal
> 
> View attachment 256208


sometimes seems like no-one hates Brexit more than the people who voted for it


----------



## Yossarian (Feb 26, 2021)

The general line from the Express seems to be "EU is floundering desperately after losing Britain," so they'll probably keep criticizing the deal until EU leaders grant all British demands and visit London to bow to the Queen.


----------



## Aladdin (Feb 26, 2021)




----------



## BobDavis (Feb 26, 2021)

What is it the right wing media do not understand about customs clearance ? I understood it ok in pre customs union days & I was only ever a truck driver. One thing wrong on a inch thick pile of paperwork & you sat in your stopped truck for 5 hours while it was sorted out.


----------



## Flavour (Feb 26, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Chablis still costs a tenner in Lidl though.



I love when this thread gets sidetracked into wine talk. Did you buy any? How is it?


----------



## quiet guy (Feb 26, 2021)

Don't be a wimp eat a shrimp


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

bimble said:


> You probably like salty watery porridge too.



Au contraire. I'll like sweetened thick porridge, made with water.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 27, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> Don't be a wimp eat a shrimp


Only twats don't eat sprats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We are about to have up to two million extra unemployed. Plenty of people for jobs. No where will close unless their economic model relies on paying absolute minimum.



So, most "service sector" jobs, then!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It would improve the atmosphere in pubs, get rid of those ghastly British people behind the bar.



Look, you know Spymaster is only behind the bar because he falls asleep, & the staff don't want other customers tripping over the drunken sot!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> "Eat Hake for a Clean Break?"





BobDavis said:


> Nothing wrong with Hake or Herring. It annoys me that smoked herring very cheap can be found on supermarket shelves in Holland & France but not in the UK. It will have been caught in UK waters.  I love it. Goes well with salad or just cooked veg. Smoked mackerel can be found in UK shops ok. All good stuff. Oily fish.



Smoked herring, aka kippers.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We're taking back control, so poach yourself a Dover sole.



Don't be a trollop, treat yourself to a scallop.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 27, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> Don't be a wimp eat a shrimp



Chuck your tastebuds under a bus,
eat a fillet of huss.

Nah, that doesn't quite work, does it?


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 27, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Smoked herring, aka kippers.


No. Kippers are herring slit lengthways & then smoked. They need to be warmed to be eaten. Smoked herring is is pieces of fish already prepared then smoked or maybe whole fish is smoked then prepared ? I don’t know but it can be eaten cold straight from packet. You don’t seem to get them in UK. Maybe some fishmongers might do them but in Holland & France they are plastic wrapped on the supermarket cold shelf very cheap.

I suppose for people that “don’t like fish” smoked herring would be their ultimate nightmare. Wet slimy & quite bland but very healthy source of protein & B12. I’m sure brexity people who love their Sunday roasts, hate fish & would fight like cats in a sack to get “our fishing waters back” would regard smoked herring as “foreign muck” despite herring being in abundance in “our fishing waters”.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 27, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I love when this thread gets sidetracked into wine talk. Did you buy any? How is it?


Very good value, massive quality. Ten quid.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 27, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> No. Kippers are herring slit lengthways & then smoked. They need to be warmed to be eaten. Smoked herring is is pieces of fish already prepared then smoked or maybe whole fish is smoked then prepared ? I don’t know but it can be eaten cold straight from packet. You don’t seem to get them in UK. Maybe some fishmongers might do them but in Holland & France they are plastic wrapped on the supermarket cold shelf very cheap.
> 
> I suppose for people that “don’t like fish” smoked herring would be their ultimate nightmare. Wet slimy & quite bland but very healthy source of protein & B12. I’m sure brexity people who love their Sunday roasts, hate fish & would fight like cats in a sack to get “our fishing waters back” would regard smoked herring as “foreign muck” despite herring being in abundance in “our fishing waters”.


I like it. Hard to find in the uk though to buy.


----------



## TopCat (Feb 27, 2021)

I’m going to take a walk down Deptford Market to the fish place. There was some interesting stuff the last time. I’m hoping for a fat wild sea bass. Maybe some samphire and a few cockles.


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m going to take a walk down Deptford Market to the fish place. There was some interesting stuff the last time. I’m hoping for a fat wild sea bass. Maybe some samphire and a few cockles.


Our local fishmonger had a whole halibut in the window yesterday. You don't see that often. #benefitsofbrexit


----------



## brogdale (Feb 27, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Our local fishmonger had a whole halibut in the window yesterday. You don't see that often. #benefitsofbrexit


tbh, I think it's more likely to be #allrestaurantsshut


----------



## TopCat (Feb 27, 2021)

Well it was interesting as always down Deptford market this morning. Twenty person hard to manage queue at the fish stall as always. Everything looking really good due to the cold morning

Lots less of the parrot fish and red mullet and other exotic previously frozen stuff (which has always been a staple on this stall was evident. 

They had much more fish caught locally in UK waters, this was obvious. what was immediately obvious was the quality of the cuts of the fish.

Monkfish aren’t rare but we usually get the tails sold here. Today they had glistening middle cut Monkfish. It’s like getting the middle cut of the beef sirloin joint instead of the end.

This saddle of Monkfish was glistening with freshness. I bought it. 

I also got scallops in their shells, recently dredged, all closed. These are unknown at this stall. They had a tank and a bubbler for them. 

None of this stall is priced up, but it’s one price for all pretty much. Lots of yelling at punters wanting to touch and pick up the live lobster and crabs. All very Deptford. 
They had wild Jery Seabass, fat, huge, stiff with rigour.
Any way. I paid twenty quid for a kilo of mid loin fab monkfish and six huge scallops. Never usually get this selection, quality of price


----------



## Mezzer (Feb 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well it was interesting as always down Deptford market this morning. Twenty person hard to manage queue at the fish stall as always. Everything looking really good due to the cold morning
> 
> Lots less of the parrot fish and red mullet and other exotic previously frozen stuff (which has always been a staple on this stall was evident.
> 
> ...



Despite your hard work in highlighting the sunny post-Brexit uplands, the reality is that most UK fish consumers are very conservative.   They eat a very limited selection of UK caught fish, which is why most fishermen relied very heavily on EU exports.  I live in the SW and the fishing industry down here is on its knees as EU exports are not viable.


----------



## kabbes (Feb 28, 2021)

Mezzer said:


> Despite your hard work in highlighting the sunny post-Brexit uplands, the reality is that most UK fish consumers are very conservative.   They eat a very limited selection of UK caught fish, which is why most fishermen relied very heavily on EU exports.  I live in the SW and the fishing industry down here is on its knees as EU exports are not viable.


And this is just inherent to the biology of the British?  Or it is a cultural practice rooted in historical political and supply-chain processes that is subject to ongoing evolution as those politics and supply chains change?


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I like it. Hard to find in the uk though to buy.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> View attachment 256541


That's not the smoked one.

e2a: looks more like this:



Cheap (over there) & delicious.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> That's not the smoked one.
> 
> e2a: looks more like this:
> 
> ...


There's a dutch supermarket about five miles away that sells them over here at about 4-5 euros


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There's a dutch supermarket about five miles away that sells them over here at about 4-5 euros


Have carried my own horseradish with me, though...can't get on with the Dutch/German stuff.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Feb 28, 2021)

My old man’s mad for a herring, so much so that he regularly attends herring festivals in Normandy. I think the calvados may also be somewhat of a draw...


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My old man’s mad for a herring, so much so that he regularly attends herring festivals in Normandy. I think the calvados may also be somewhat of a draw...


When we're in Hamburg Mrs B heads straight for the Bismarck herring roll stands on the waterfront; she's mad for 'em...myself, I'm a bit meh


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My old man’s mad for a herring, so much so that he regularly attends herring festivals in Normandy. I think the calvados may also be somewhat of a draw...


I’ve been to a couple of these and you’re right. They’re usually in November so it’s jolly cold and the Calvados and cider goes down as well as the fish.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I’ve been to a couple of these and you’re right. They’re usually in November so it’s jolly cold and the Calvados and cider goes down as well as the fish.


Do these events feature the kippered herring?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Do these events feature the kippered herring?


I can’t remember seeing them split like that but in Dieppe there are streets lined with stalls selling hot herring in pretty much every guise imaginable. The smell’s incredible.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I can’t remember seeing them split like that but in Dieppe there are streets lined with stalls selling hot herring in pretty much every guise imaginable. The smell’s incredible.


Incredible good or unbelievably bad?


----------



## Spymaster (Feb 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Incredible good or unbelievably bad?


Well the whole town smells of smoked fish. I love it but it’s probably not for everyone.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 28, 2021)

brogdale said:


> When we're in Hamburg Mrs B heads straight for the Bismarck herring roll stands on the waterfront; she's mad for 'em...myself, I'm a bit meh


Never fear; I love the kipper and have a particular thing for these atm...especially if I rifle through the stack and find the packs with 3 fillets.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 28, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well the whole town smells of smoked fish. I love it but it’s probably not for everyone.


_Books ticket_


----------



## BobDavis (Feb 28, 2021)

Dutch fish vans which as well as selling smoked herring also sell their version of fish & chips which is kibling & chips which is bits of fish deep fried in batter. Most will have a sign up saying they do herring parties. That might be the Dutch version of an ox roast except with fish.


----------



## hash tag (Feb 28, 2021)

Has any one been personally and effected by Brexit yet? I gather there may well be an issue with personal imports of cars. There have been taxes
levied on buying goods from Europe and selling goods to Europe, also returning goods that were bought in Europe.

I sourced to otherwise unobtainable CD's from an Austrian record shop yesterday, face value about £30 yet I have been charged tax of £7.00 something.


----------



## teuchter (Feb 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I also got scallops in their shells, recently dredged, all closed. These are unknown at this stall. They had a tank and a bubbler for them.


Please just don't buy dredged scallops, ever.


----------



## Supine (Feb 28, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Has any one been personally and effected by Brexit yet?



I had to turn down some work in Germany.


----------



## Raheem (Feb 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> My old man’s mad for a herring, so much so that he regularly attends herring festivals in Normandy. I think the calvados may also be somewhat of a draw...


Makes a change from gorblimey trousers.


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> Has any one been personally and effected by Brexit yet? I gather there may well be an issue with personal imports of cars. There have been taxes
> levied on buying goods from Europe and selling goods to Europe, also returning goods that were bought in Europe.
> 
> I sourced to otherwise unobtainable CD's from an Austrian record shop yesterday, face value about £30 yet I have been charged tax of £7.00 something.


For the first time since I joined my band we have zero European dates booked.


----------



## hash tag (Mar 1, 2021)

There was a similar issue to this at the weekend; someone had got landed with a £500 mixer from Belgium that they wanted to return









						My 'Brexit bonus' proved to be a customs duty bill from DHL
					

Whether picture frames or trainers, buyers are counting the cost of ordering from the EU




					www.theguardian.com
				




I had no idea of the implications about buying from Austria when I started my order!
Lets hope I don't want to reject the order


----------



## belboid (Mar 1, 2021)

hash tag said:


> There was a similar issue to this at the weekend; someone had got landed with a £500 mixer from Belgium that they wanted to return
> 
> 
> 
> ...


*I bought some trainers from a company in Italy which cost in total €490. I ordered two pairs of different sizes and styles, intending sending one back.* 

They can fuck right off. Flying a pair of trainers 3000 km to try them on?   £131 fine for being a knob seems quite reasonable in the circumstances.


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

belboid said:


> *I bought some trainers from a company in Italy which cost in total €490. I ordered two pairs of different sizes and styles, intending sending one back.*
> 
> They can fuck right off. Flying a pair of trainers 3000 km to try them on?   £131 fine for being a knob seems quite reasonable in the circumstances.


It's a fucking disaster and not just for rich people buying shoes.



> If customs duty is due, the rate will vary depending on the exact nature of the product. To find out, you have to consult www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk. Allow several hours and a stiff drink.
> 
> As to the trainers, there are a number of categories for footwear, depending on what the sole is made of, and how it’s attached, which will make your hair stand on end. Clothes, shoes and food incur the highest rates; on 40% of merchandise there’s none at all.
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

We make the best shoes in the world mainly around Nottingham. Grenson make lush trainers. People get paid a UK wage for cobbling.


----------



## belboid (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> It's a fucking disaster and not just for rich people buying shoes.


ohh there are plenty of people I have every sympathy for, even if I think they have been rather naive in thinking nothing will change.  But some fucker getting trainers sent miles to _try on?  _Fuck all to do with Brexit, but they can fuck the fuck off a thousand times over.


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We make the best shoes in the world mainly around Nottingham. Grenson make lush trainers. People get paid a UK wage for cobbling.


That's nice if you can afford such luxuries, but the majority of people can't afford £285 hand made trainers, so surely you'll be strongly condemning these extra charges brought on by Brexit, yes?


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> That's nice if you can afford such luxuries, but the majority of people can't afford £285 hand made trainers, so surely you'll be strongly condemning these extra charges brought on by Brexit, yes?


Norman Walsh make trainers in Bolton - their prices start at 80 quid or so.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 1, 2021)

I buy my flat foot trainers from Germany. Would be happy to buy from UK if anyone knows of any.


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I buy my flat foot trainers from Germany. Would be happy to buy from UK if anyone knows of any.


what are flat foot trainers?


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> Norman Walsh make trainers in Bolton - their prices start at 80 quid or so.


I'm not sure why you're telling me this. I was responding to TopCat's post which seemed to infer that people should just shrug off these import charges and buy from Grenson instead. I'm sure there are some great shoes made in the UK but that's not going to stop people wanting to buy cheaper/named brands from abroad.

I'd imagine that  Norman Walsh's export business may be negatively impacted by Brexit too, which is of curse a real shame for an independent business. I'd certainly think twice about buying off a website that came with these caveats.



> Brexit Update:
> 
> 
> As the UK has now left the European Union, orders to Europe may now be affected with additional terms and customs procedures.
> ...











						Shipping - Norman Walsh - Made in UK
					

We offer the following Delivery options for UK and Worldwide Destinations. Complimentary Shipping is available on orders over £200.




					www.normanwalshuk.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2021)

i love the euphemisms which drop into people's posts like 'negatively impacted'


----------



## ska invita (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> what are flat foot trainers?


lightweight (running) trainers with strong arch support designed for overpronation


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sure there are some great shoes made in the UK but that's not going to stop people wanting to buy cheaper/named brands from abroad.


There's not a huge amount of trainer manufacturers left in the UK now, mostly because of cheaper brands from abroad being available. I'm really not convinced that being able to get cheaper things from abroad is a 100% positive thing tbh.


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> lightweight (running) trainers with strong arch support designed for overpronation


there isn't a lot about tbh - Walsh used to make serious runners but mostly just make fashion trainers now (and fellrunning shoes, but I don't think they'd really work for everyday wear) - New Balance manufacture some stuff in the UK though, might be worth digging through their MIE range. That's about it though - there's a few other sneaker manufacturers, but none of them are sports shoes as far as I can tell.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

editor said:


> That's nice if you can afford such luxuries, but the majority of people can't afford £285 hand made trainers, so surely you'll be strongly condemning these extra charges brought on by Brexit, yes?


About the same price you quoted no? Except the far east cobblers get thrupence a day.


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> About the same price you quoted no? Except the far east cobblers get thrupence a day.


they still make lots of shoes in italy tbf - could be the ones in the graun story are made there as well as sold from there.


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> they still make lots of shoes in italy tbf - could be the ones in the graun story are made there as well as sold from there.


who -far eastern cobblers?  Heard that story.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

My Nottingham hand made shoes are infinitely repairable. Churches, Barkers, Grensons. I get them repaired by local cobblers.
All good, a continuous English tradition that sadly are more appreciated by folk abroad whatever the cost.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

Back in the day we were all about New Balance trainers at Millwall.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

No one makes better shoes than the English.


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Churches, Barkers, Grensons.


(they're all from Northampton not Nottingham)


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

gosub said:


> who -far eastern cobblers?  Heard that story.


italian shoemakers, fashion labels' 'premium' ranges, etc.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> (they're all from Northampton not Nottingham)


Sorry.


----------



## Flavour (Mar 1, 2021)

Cheap trainers from poor countries = somebody else is paying for them in their despicably low wages


----------



## ska invita (Mar 1, 2021)

this is an interesting read








						How business benefits from Brexit
					

Brexit was declared done a month ago, the complex process of EU trade deal negotiations has just begun. In the second of a two-part series, Jamie Gough and John Kirby analyse why business will benefit from Brexit




					www.redpepper.org.uk
				



too much to summarise


----------



## Raheem (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We make the best shoes in the world mainly around Nottingham. Grenson make lush trainers. People get paid a UK wage for cobbling.


Just sounds to me like you're talking cobblers.


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> italian shoemakers, fashion labels' 'premium' ranges, etc.











						What Really Goes into "Made in Italy" Fashion? - The Fashion Law
					

Your $4,800 “Made in Italy” bag might not be exactly as it seems. This is one of points that has been raised with increasing frequency in recent years in connection with the pricey goods coming from the upper echelon of the fashion industry. Shadowy backstories of undocumented laborers, unseemly...




					www.thefashionlaw.com


----------



## killer b (Mar 1, 2021)

gosub said:


> What Really Goes into "Made in Italy" Fashion? - The Fashion Law
> 
> 
> Your $4,800 “Made in Italy” bag might not be exactly as it seems. This is one of points that has been raised with increasing frequency in recent years in connection with the pricey goods coming from the upper echelon of the fashion industry. Shadowy backstories of undocumented laborers, unseemly...
> ...


Ah yeah, that - well, we have our own similar issues re domestic manufacturing - cf all those pieces about Leicester sweatshops that broke last year. Bosses will exploit staff wherever they are, but at least we have some chance of stopping it via regulation & unionisation etc when it's made locally


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2021)

killer b said:


> Ah yeah, that - well, we have our own similar issues re domestic manufacturing - cf all those pieces about Leicester sweatshops that broke last year. Bosses will exploit staff wherever they are, but at least we have some chance of stopping it via regulation & unionisation etc when it's made locally


EU China trade deal means they'll be opening more.  


Not forgotten the Leicester thing, shame quite liked Debenhams FUCK YOU BOOHOO


----------



## Flavour (Mar 1, 2021)

I've spoken about this before on here but yes there is a shocking amount of made in italy stuff which is made in sweatshops not much different from their east asian equivalents. the story of the industrial estates around the city of Prato in Tuscany v important but there are similar in the Veneto and Lombardy regions too.

that being said it is pretty great how you can still find so many consumer products in italy that are still made domestically (pillow cases, fruit juicers, desk globes, towels, plates and cutlery, to name just a few things in my own house... can't think of another country in europe where that would be possible)


----------



## philosophical (Mar 1, 2021)

I can't think of any UK manufactured Vegetarian shoes.


----------



## belboid (Mar 1, 2021)

try VEGAN FOOTWEAR by Vegetarian Shoes. Made in UK and Europe


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

TopCat said:


> About the same price you quoted no? Except the far east cobblers get thrupence a day.


I'm trying to work out where you're going with this argument. Is Brexit great because poorer people can no longer buy cheap imported shoes and are now free to look online at British made shoes that they can't afford? 

It's obviously disgusting the way that capitalism exploits workers in poorer countries, but you'll be as guilty as everyone else of owning or using goods and services created from that system.

And UK businesses who rely on exporting their goods are likely to suffer anyway because of the increased red tape and hassle for customers.  

So who's winning here, exactly?


----------



## gosub (Mar 1, 2021)

*“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.

Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.

But the thing was that good boots lasted for years and years. A man who could afford fifty dollars had a pair of boots that'd still be keeping his feet dry in ten years' time, while the poor man who could only afford cheap boots would have spent a hundred dollars on boots in the same time and would still have wet feet.

This was the Captain Samuel Vimes 'Boots' theory of socioeconomic unfairness.”*

― Terry Pratchett, Men at Arms: The Play


----------



## editor (Mar 1, 2021)

gosub said:


> *“The reason that the rich were so rich, Vimes reasoned, was because they managed to spend less money.
> 
> Take boots, for example. He earned thirty-eight dollars a month plus allowances. A really good pair of leather boots cost fifty dollars. But an affordable pair of boots, which were sort of OK for a season or two and then leaked like hell when the cardboard gave out, cost about ten dollars. Those were the kind of boots Vimes always bought, and wore until the soles were so thin that he could tell where he was in Ankh-Morpork on a foggy night by the feel of the cobbles.
> 
> ...


Yes, if you're rich you can afford to buy the best and those things usually - but not always - outlive cheap stuff. But that's the only choice you get if you're poor.


TopCat said:


> My Nottingham hand made shoes are infinitely repairable. Churches, Barkers, Grensons. I get them repaired by local cobblers.
> All good, a continuous English tradition that sadly are more appreciated by folk abroad whatever the cost.


I wonder how many people can afford to splash out £570 for a pair of Churches shoes  - who are, incidentally, owned by luxury brand Prada, a multinational company who scored 'frighteningly low' on a forced labour index.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 1, 2021)

> Many men of course became extremely rich, but this was perfectly natural and nothing to be ashamed of because no one was really poor—at least no one worth speaking of.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 2, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Are any of our new trade deals better than the ones we had whilst in the EU?


I assume from the lack of replies, that the answer is no.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 2, 2021)

Who would have thought that  70% of shoes sold in the States are Chinese?


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2021)

editor said:


> Yes, if you're rich you can afford to buy the best and those things usually - but not always - outlive cheap stuff. But that's the only choice you get if you're poor.


UK clothes manufacturing is mostly for the luxury market because all the budget and mid-range manufacturers moved their production to the far east to improve their bottom line, but cheap clothes were made domestically before that, and could be again - maybe one way to make that happen is to have an international trade policy which encourages local manufacture rather than one that encourages companies to move their production elsewhere in the world.


----------



## two sheds (Mar 2, 2021)

This is good  - also UK 









						New EU ‘right to repair’ laws require technology to last for a decade
					

New devices will also have to come with repair manuals and be made in such a way that they can be dismantled using conventional tools




					www.independent.co.uk
				






> New EU ‘right to repair’ laws require technology to last for a decade
> New devices will also have to come with repair manuals and be made in such a way that they can be dismantled using conventional tools
> 
> Companies that sell consumer electronics such as refrigerators, washers, hairdryers, or TVs in the European Union - and in the UK - will need to ensure those goods can be repaired for up to 10 years.


----------



## Lucy Fur (Mar 2, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm trying to work out where you're going with this argument. Is Brexit great because poorer people can no longer buy cheap imported shoes and are now free to look online at British made shoes that they can't afford?
> 
> It's obviously disgusting the way that capitalism exploits workers in poorer countries, but you'll be as guilty as everyone else of owning or using goods and services created from that system.
> 
> ...


And I've just been guilty of exactly that. I bought a Vox amp from a French store. They were out of stock, but said they could import from the UK within 2 weeks. It took 6. Then I noticed it was made in Vietnam. In hindsight, I should of researched French amp manufacturers. So maybe that is a Brexit benefit, we can all become more aware of how goods get to us and act more  responsible. Not exactly sunny uplands/£350 mil for the NHS/ continued protection of workers rights though, is it.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 2, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I can't think of any UK manufactured Vegetarian shoes.



Altberg in North Yorkshire make vegan walking boots..


----------



## philosophical (Mar 2, 2021)

Yeah. There are some specialist shoes, I even somehow bought some motorcycle boots made of kevlar once (made in Italy I think) and I am aware of Vegetarian Shoes in Brighton, but it looks as if the common or garden shoe shoes are made in Portugal mainly.
If you ask in a shoe shop (when they open) for shoes with no animal products the usual offering is canvas deck shoes type of thing.
If there was a regular shoe manufacturer in Northampton or elsewhere in the UK that produced one line of lace ups and one line of slip on sturdy everyday mens shoes, I would be delighted to know about them.


----------



## killer b (Mar 2, 2021)

Maggot said:


> I assume from the lack of replies, that the answer is no.


Question is, better for whom? Trade barriers are bad for people who want to import or export goods, but good for people who's market is mostly domestic.

I first realised that brexit was a real possibility when I did some canvassing for Labour in the local elections before the referendum - on a huge council estate, almost every person I spoke to was pro-brexit, and many of them were explicit that they were pro-brexit because it would 'bring jobs back' to the UK. 

Whether and how this might happen is yet to shake out, but don't assume everyone shares your appetite for untrammelled free trade - for lots of people, it's something that's seen their livelihoods disappear to places where the workforce is cheaper year on year for decades.


----------



## Chz (Mar 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> lightweight (running) trainers with strong arch support designed for overpronation


The only things I've ever worn that don't ruin my feet are GT-2000s. They come from Vietnam, but I don't have a lot of choice in the matter.
I mean, I'm sure there are others but then we're back to shuffling stock around the globe just so I can try it on again.


----------



## ska invita (Mar 2, 2021)

Chz said:


> The only things I've ever worn that don't ruin my feet are GT-2000s. They come from Vietnam, but I don't have a lot of choice in the matter.
> I mean, I'm sure there are others but then we're back to shuffling stock around the globe just so I can try it on again.


Yeah it seems like its Assics or Brooks. New Balance do some ("motion control") but ive not been able to find in the UK.


----------



## contadino (Mar 2, 2021)

TopCat said:


> My Nottingham hand made shoes are infinitely repairable. Churches, Barkers, Grensons. I get them repaired by local cobblers.
> All good, a continuous English tradition that sadly are more appreciated by folk abroad whatever the cost.



I have a pair of Church's shoes. They're made of Spanish leather. Which just got more difficult to import and now costs more.

So if I understand this thread properly, we now have to spin that as a benefit of Brexit, or failing that, dismiss the issue as a middle class problem..?


----------



## ska invita (Mar 2, 2021)

one last try to see if anyone has anything to say on this thread








						Protectionism
					

Considering recent world political events Im curious if anyone has any thoughts about economic protectionism...as an economic policy and inevitably with its relation to nationalism.  Seems to me its a policy that divides both the left and the right:  On the one hand  some parts of 'the right'...




					www.urban75.net


----------



## editor (Mar 2, 2021)

contadino said:


> I have a pair of Church's shoes. They're made of Spanish leather. Which just got more difficult to import and now costs more.
> 
> So if I understand this thread properly, we now have to spin that as a benefit of Brexit, or failing that, dismiss the issue as a middle class problem..?


I'm not sure where he's going with the argument, but he appears to be advocating that we support a manufacturer of high-end, unaffordable luxury goods owned by a multinational company with an 'abysmally low score ' on forced labour and worker exploitation. And that is, presumably, his idea of a Brexit success. 



			https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-sneakers-the-answer-is-probably


----------



## kabbes (Mar 2, 2021)

contadino said:


> So if I understand this thread properly, we now have to spin that as a benefit of Brexit, or failing that, dismiss the issue as a middle class problem..?


No, you’ve not understood this thread properly at all.  The point is that the world is way too complicated to just break things down as either a “benefit” or a “harm”.  Most things are both at the same time.  A chocolate bar benefits me now but harms me in the long run.  The choice to order two pairs of shoes from Italy and send the pair I don’t want back benefits my ability to improve my wardrobe and benefits the shoemaker’s profit and loss but harms the environment and local shoemakers.   Leaving trading systems intact benefits the population’s ability to maintain their immediate standard of living but may harm their ability to disrupt the future system in their favour.  It’s not simple.


----------



## teuchter (Mar 2, 2021)

It's a bit like you can't really say that Covid-19 is a "bad" thing just because you reckon the immediate and visible harms outweigh some notional long term benefits that may or may not materialise.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 2, 2021)

Yes, Brexit is just like 2 million people dying in a pandemic.  Well put.


----------



## gosub (Mar 2, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Yes, Brexit is just like 2 million people dying in a pandemic.  Well put.


Them's that voted for the pandemic are idiots (ignore them basically)


----------



## brogdale (Mar 3, 2021)

OBR seeing an overall 4% long-term decline in UK productivity as a result of the introduction of non-tariff barriers following the EU-UK TCA.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm not sure where he's going with the argument, but he appears to be advocating that we support a manufacturer of high-end, unaffordable luxury goods owned by a multinational company with an 'abysmally low score ' on forced labour and worker exploitation. And that is, presumably, his idea of a Brexit success.
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.fastcompany.com/90279693/did-a-slave-make-your-sneakers-the-answer-is-probably


Buy British not expensive trainers from abroad. Grensons do good ones for less than a hundred quid. Plus their shoes are often a similar price. Simples. Globalisation is not a good thing. Perhaps you disagree and support it? I don’t expect an answer btw. Just abuse an a simpleton meme.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Buy British not expensive trainers from abroad. Grensons do good ones for less than a hundred quid. Plus their shoes are often a similar price. Simples. Globalisation is not a good thing. Perhaps you disagree and support it? I don’t expect an answer btw. Just abuse an a simpleton meme.


I think you need to ask yourself that question, seeing as you were very recently recommending that poor people should somehow find the money to invest in expensive shoes from a company owned by a vast multinational luxury brand empire with an 'abysmally low score' on forced labour and worker exploitation.

Or is globalisation OK for you when you like the brand?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> I think you need to ask yourself that question, seeing as you were very recently recommending that poor people should somehow find the money to invest in expensive shoes from a company owned by a vast multinational luxury brand empire with an 'abysmally low score' on forced labour and worker exploitation.
> 
> Or is globalisation OK for you when you like the brand?


I but British made shoes that last and provide jobs here. What do you do?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I but British made shoes that last and provide jobs here. What do you do?


It's great that you can afford to buy such expensive shoes, but if you're going to try and claim some kind of moral high ground here, you need to question whether you should be supporting a business owned by a luxury global brand with a horrendous record on forced labour and worker exploitation. 



TopCat said:


> What do you do?


Oh I prefer actions rather than words, so I'd say this site represents what I do: something that hopefully provides support and community, and comes completely free of advertising, sponsorships (luxury brands or otherwise) and is absolutely free and accessible to all. Same applies to my other site, which also manages to raise a fair bit of money for local charities every year. 

You see, we're all hypocrites, even you. Every day we soak up the vast benefits that globalisation has brought us even if we hate the process, the waste, the greed, the pollution, and and the disparity of wealth. Selectively opting out of bits of it while suggesting people go out and buy unaffordable  luxury brand shoes from England (while ignoring the company's global provenance) hardly gives you access to the high moral ground. 

I do what I can but it will never be enough.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> It's great that you can afford to buy such expensive shoes, but if you're going to try and claim some kind of moral high ground here, you need to question whether you should be supporting a business owned by a luxury global brand with a horrendous record on forced labour and worker exploitation.
> 
> Oh I prefer actions rather than words, so I'd say this site represents what I do: something that hopefully provides support and community, and comes completely free of advertising, sponsorships (luxury brands or otherwise) and is absolutely free and accessible to all. Same applies to my other site, which also manages to raise a fair bit of money for local charities every year.
> 
> ...


What do you wear on your feet and what influences your choice?


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> What do you wear on your feet and what influences your choice?


This is getting a bit weird and personal again, so I'm out.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> This is getting a bit weird and personal again, so I'm out.


You discussed at length your tech choices and some of them are very expensive. Why not just say what your shoe choices are?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

You could just ignore me btw. Might be best.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You could just ignore me btw. Might be best.


Or you can just stop the needless - and more recently - completely ignorant and spiteful personal attacks on my life and my work. 

This thread is about Brexit, not about what make of shoes I wear.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

editor said:


> Or you can just stop the needless - and more recently - completely ignorant and spiteful personal attacks on my life and my work.
> 
> This thread is about Brexit, not about what make of shoes I wear.


You just come across as a relentless hypocrite to be fair. I won’t respond to your posts again.


----------



## editor (Mar 4, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You just come across as a relentless hypocrite to be fair. I won’t respond to your posts again.


And there you go again with the unpleasant personal attacks. What's the matter with you?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 4, 2021)

Quack


----------



## ska invita (Mar 6, 2021)

From this story








						Food scarcity fears prompt plan to ease post-Brexit checks on EU imports
					

Ministers considering ‘lighter touch’ regime to avoid disruption to supplies from bloc




					www.theguardian.com
				





this line really stood out to me:
" , a survey last week by the Food and Drink Federation of its members that send goods to the EU found a 45% drop in exports since 1 January."
Thats pretty incredible if true and not just as statistical mirage


----------



## two sheds (Mar 6, 2021)

That's just the first month though  we'll have to see how the government deals with it long term. 

I'm sure there'll be a greater drop to come


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 7, 2021)

Foie Gras is finally to be banned from the U.K., something that couldn’t be done whilst a member of the EU single market.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 7, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Foie Gras is finally to be banned from the U.K., something that couldn’t be done whilst a member of the EU single market.


I wonder what France will ban in the tit-for-tat. I reckon it'll be Cheddar.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From this story
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2021)

ska invita said:


> From this story
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Spymaster said:


> I wonder what France will ban in the tit-for-tat. I reckon it'll be Cheddar.


If they wanted detente they could ban vegan cheese.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> If they wanted detente they could ban vegan cheese.


What is _vegan cheese_ made from?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2021)

So, faced with food shortages, _taking back control of our borders _becomes the trade equivalent of osmosis.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2021)

It’s hugely telling of the incompetence shown since the result, the lack of preparedness for both possible outcomes, that the solution to piss poor planning is just to wave everything through.


----------



## tommers (Mar 7, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> What is _vegan cheese_ made from?











						How to Make Easy Vegan Cheese
					

Showing you an easy way to make a homemade vegan cheese with coconut milk and no nuts.  Rich and creamy vegan cheese that melts and slices perfectly.




					thehiddenveggies.com
				




Coconut milk. Sounds alright. Thought it was going to be some seed husk or something.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s hugely telling of the incompetence shown since the result, the lack of preparedness for both possible outcomes, that the solution to piss poor planning is just to wave everything through.


tbh, we're reaping the incompetence and arrogance that preceded the result.


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 7, 2021)

Tangible benefits of independence


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It’s hugely telling of the incompetence shown since the result, the lack of preparedness for both possible outcomes, that the solution to piss poor planning is just to wave everything through.


They couldn’t prepare because that would bring out the lie that there were no barriers. Now they have to wave stuff through or the shelves will go bare.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> tbh, we're reaping the incompetence and arrogance that preceded the result.


For sure. I was really shocked when Cameron admitted he had insisted no planning and contingency arrangements were considered or actioned before the ballot. Real open mouth stuff it was.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> For sure. I was really shocked when Cameron admitted he had insisted no planning and contingency arrangements were considered or actioned before the ballot. Real open mouth stuff it was.


Manifest arrogance.


----------



## editor (Mar 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Tangible benefits of independence
> 
> View attachment 257667


When the Welsh Liberal Democrat leader speaks the whole world listens. Fucking idiots.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 7, 2021)

sleaterkinney said:


> They couldn’t prepare because that would bring out the lie that there were no barriers. Now they have to wave stuff through or the shelves will go bare.


Like they already are in the six counties


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 7, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Tangible benefits of independence
> 
> View attachment 257667


The quickest path to Welsh independance would be to let the English vote on it.


----------



## editor (Mar 8, 2021)

The catastrophe continues now with bonus govt cover up



> The Cabinet Office run by Michael Gove has been officially reprimanded by the UK Statistics Authority for using unpublished and unverifiable data in an attempt to deny that Brexit had caused a massive fall in volumes of trade through British ports.
> 
> The criticism follows a story in the _Observer_ on 7 February that cited a survey by the Road Haulage Association (RHA) of its international members showing export volumes had dropped by a staggering 68% in January through British ports and the Channel Tunnel.
> 
> ...











						UK Statistics Authority rebukes Gove over Brexit figures
					

Cabinet Office used ‘unverifiable data’ to rebut a Road Haulage Association survey showing export volumes dropped by 68%




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Mar 9, 2021)




----------



## The39thStep (Mar 9, 2021)

There are EU rights and the rights of the EU


----------



## teuchter (Mar 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There are EU rights and the rights of the EU



Can you explain what's actually happened here and why you think it's wrong, or are you just reposting a dramatic sounding tweet?


----------



## gosub (Mar 11, 2021)

teuchter said:


> Can you explain what's actually happened here and why you think it's wrong, or are you just reposting a dramatic sounding tweet?











						58% of MEPs vote to lift immunity of Puigdemont, Comín and Ponsatí
					

A divided European Parliament has voted to lift the parliamentary immunity of the 3 Catalan MEPs in exile.




					www.elnacional.cat


----------



## teuchter (Mar 11, 2021)

I don't really see why the tweet says their "civil rights" have been "removed". It seems to me that MEPs have made a democratic vote that decides that immunity, which protects against them from being persecuted for holding opinions, doesn't apply in this case.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 12, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I don't really see why the tweet says their "civil rights" have been "removed". It seems to me that MEPs have made a democratic vote that decides that immunity, which protects against them from being persecuted for holding opinions, doesn't apply in this case.


The way MEP immunity is designed is that member states need to get permission to prosecute and MEP which, in practice, is never declined. It isn't a magic shield in the same way as parliamentary immunity in the UK.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 12, 2021)

Another Brexit win.









						UK exports to European Union drop 40% in January
					

Official figures show a sharp drop in trade in goods with the EU as the Brexit transition period ended.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Poi E (Mar 15, 2021)

Yeah but

1. Temporary. Exporters will learn how to fill in forms.
2. Liz Truss is amazing, isn't she? 
3. It was never about the money.
4. When the fuck does Wetherspoons open?


----------



## brogdale (Mar 15, 2021)

Off to court, then...


----------



## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

ive got a feeling the current legal case being brought by the EU was deliberately walked into by the UK
previously there were many signs that grace periods would be extended by mutual agreement
this Lord Frost character took over and seemingly deliberately announced it unilaterally, knowing what reaction that would have, when the option to do so diplomatically was on the table
if so, the question is why. the only answer i can think of is that maintaining tensions with the EU is seen as strategically beneficial by the Tories. that also begs the further question what that strategy is.


----------



## Supine (Mar 16, 2021)

Excellent takedown of Frost here. I think leavers and remainders can agree he is not playing this well. 





__





						Fisking Frost
					

This post will be slightly different to the normal round up and discussion of the week’s Brexit events. Instead, it will provide a detailed ...




					chrisgreybrexitblog.blogspot.com


----------



## ska invita (Mar 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> I think leavers and remainders can agree he is* not playing this well.*


Completely down to what goals they are now after. I agree with the piece you posted that its not _just_ anti-EU stoking for the base audience. There's looming fights on a range of issues, and of course bigger deregulation plans on the horizon, so somehow they must be thinking better to keep it agro right from the off, keeps the mood hardball and deliberately unreliable. Smacks of arrogance borne of people used to getting their own way no matter what to me.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 16, 2021)

Imo, the thing is that the government wants to avoid implementing the NI protocol. If they had gone to the EU to ask for an extension to the grace periods, they would have probably got that, but the EU would have wanted steps taken in return so that there would be no alternative to implementation once the extension ended. That would have been a disaster for the government, so the default alternative is this unilateral refusal. They may or may not have a plan beyond that, but I don't see a reason to assume they know what they are doing.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 19, 2021)

Mostly Covid related, but Streeck's latest NLR 'Sidecar' piece is certainly 'something for the weekend' for Leavey types.

Not sure you're meant to laugh out loud reading NLR stuff, but this piece literally had me chortling...



> Spring is in the air, and Brussels should be buzzing with activity. Remember von der Leyen’s Next Generation EU (NGEU for short), the €750 billion ‘Corona recovery fund’ borrowed from the owners of capital and divided according to an incomprehensible formula between the member states, all 27 of them? This was agreed in July last year, and one might have thought that the EU would now be busy selling debt to its favourite banks. These would then sell the debt on to the European Central Bank, with a healthy profit, making their shareholders happy while fuelling quantitative easing, thereby keeping asset prices up and further adding to their shareholders’ happiness (‘stabilizing financial markets’ is the politically correct term). Well, we’re not bankers, so we don’t really need to know, and, anyway, isn’t such sensitive business better conducted behind closed doors?


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Mostly Covid related, but Streeck's latest NLR 'Sidecar' piece is certainly 'something for the weekend' for Leavey types.
> 
> Not sure you're meant to laugh out loud reading NLR stuff, but this piece literally had me chortling...


You will often find yourself chortling at nlr stuff, not always where the author intended merriment


----------



## TopCat (Mar 20, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Mostly Covid related, but Streeck's latest NLR 'Sidecar' piece is certainly 'something for the weekend' for Leavey types.
> 
> Not sure you're meant to laugh out loud reading NLR stuff, but this piece literally had me chortling...


It’s a bit all over the place and has more doubtful assertions than me at closing time.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 20, 2021)

Regarding Ursula von der Leyen’s threat to block the export of the Pfizer vaccine to the U.K., Pfizer have told her to wind her neck in as the key ingredient in their vaccine is made in the U.K.

She really is fucking shit.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Imo, the thing is that the government wants to avoid implementing the NI protocol. If they had gone to the EU to ask for an extension to the grace periods, they would have probably got that, but the EU would have wanted steps taken in return so that there would be no alternative to implementation once the extension ended. That would have been a disaster for the government, so the default alternative is this unilateral refusal. They may or may not have a plan beyond that, but I don't see a reason to assume they know what they are doing.


Yep totally this last bit. There is no plan beyond improvising a route through the present. In fact I see every reason to assume that they don't know what they're doing. It's week by week crisis management, nothing more.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Mar 20, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Yep totally this last bit. There is no plan beyond improvising a route through the present. In fact I see every reason to assume that they don't know what they're doing. It's week by week crisis management, nothing more.



dunno

i can't help wondering if there is a plan to have an argument with the EU every time there's an election coming or a 'dead cat' needed...


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 20, 2021)

Puddy_Tat said:


> dunno
> 
> i can't help wondering if there is a plan to have an argument with the EU every time there's an election coming or a 'dead cat' needed...


Could be. I'd call that a general guiding principle perhaps though more than a plan. 'Always have something/body else to blame.'


----------



## 2hats (Mar 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Pfizer have told her to wind her neck in as the key ingredient in their vaccine is made in the U.K.


Really sorry to burst your ionisable cationic lipid bubble but that's incorrect.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 20, 2021)

2hats said:


> Really sorry to burst your ionisable cationic lipid bubble but that's incorrect.












						Pfizer warns EU to back down on vaccine threats to UK
					

Pfizer has warned the European Union to back down from its threat to block vaccines to the UK because the firm “heavily” depends on the country for vital ingredients.




					www.standard.co.uk
				






> Pfizer has warned the European Union to back down from its threat to block vaccines to the UK because the firm “heavily” depends on the country for vital ingredients.
> It comes after the EU’s chief, Ursula von der Leyen, said she would halt the export of coronavirus vaccines into Britain.







__





						Pfizer warns UK could hit back over EU threat to block vaccine exports
					





					www.msn.com
				












						Exclusive: Pfizer warns EU to back down on Covid vaccine threat to UK
					

Drugmaker warns Brussels that UK has power to retaliate against any export ban by withholding raw materials shipped from Yorkshire




					www.telegraph.co.uk


----------



## 2hats (Mar 20, 2021)

Yawn.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 20, 2021)

2hats said:


> Yawn.




So Pfizer are lying?


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 20, 2021)

2hats said:


> Yawn.


That doesn't refute what Bahnhof Strasse posted. In fact it kind of bolsters his point.


----------



## gosub (Mar 20, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Regarding Ursula von der Leyen’s threat to block the export of the Pfizer vaccine to the U.K., Pfizer have told her to wind her neck in as the key ingredient in their vaccine is made in the U.K.
> 
> She really is fucking shit.











						Exclusive: Pfizer warns EU to back down on Covid vaccine threat to UK
					

Drugmaker warns Brussels that UK has power to retaliate against any export ban by withholding raw materials shipped from Yorkshire




					www.telegraph.co.uk
				





Its Astra Zeneca she wants to ban, but yep, had the same take off that ifno as you did....when EU says UK hasn't been shifting vaccine or components they are DOMONSTRABLY LIEING


----------



## Maggot (Mar 20, 2021)




----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 20, 2021)

Maggot said:


>




He really is an enormous bellend; a prime example of highly educated yet thick as pigshit.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 20, 2021)

2hats said:


> Really sorry to burst your ionisable cationic lipid bubble but that's incorrect.



And I'm sure editor will be along shortly to explain what was so Ha Ha about  2hats' incorrect post.


----------



## TopCat (Mar 22, 2021)

More import issues.








						Buying a £5,000 bike from Poland has become a Brexit nightmare
					

I was asked for £2,000 more in duty and VAT to get it delivered




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## tommers (Mar 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> More import issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Haha, just came here to post that. Poor sod.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> More import issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I bought a £5,000 bike from Germany last week and had no issues at all, DHL dropped it off at my house and left. What is wrong with some people that they can't manage to do these things without a big drama?


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> More import issues.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'the only place I could source it was a shop in Poland.'


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2021)

tommers said:


> Haha, just came here to post that. Poor sod.


If you've that much money to fritter away on a bike...


----------



## TopCat (Mar 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If you've that much money to fritter away on a bike...


Well I’m not sure it’s frittering to be fair. Might be a sole means of transport all year round.
Do they make bikes in Poland or just assemble?


----------



## TopCat (Mar 22, 2021)

But ordering 3 days before brexit was a curious decision.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well I’m not sure it’s frittering to be fair. Might be a sole means of transport all year round.
> Do they make bikes in Poland or just assemble?


I'm sure you can get a good bike for a tenth of that that'd last you years. I don't know anything about the polish cycle industry


----------



## The39thStep (Mar 22, 2021)

Editorial in the Publico , mainstream and pro-European paper whose  ( "A newspaper committed to fostering (...) support for the ideals of the European project and the certainty that as Portuguese we are part of a world that shapes us and in which we ought to participate. ")




> EDITORIAL
> *European Union: is this a global power?*
> In the vaccine campaign, Europe is a giant with clay feet. Millions of Europeans look to the other side of the channel and ask: what have we gained from being here? This terrible wound will take years to heal.
> 
> ...


----------



## Flavour (Mar 22, 2021)

Yeah this is certainly going to be a huge boost for all the anti-Euro political parties


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Editorial in the Publico , mainstream and pro-European paper whose  ( "A newspaper committed to fostering (...) support for the ideals of the European project and the certainty that as Portuguese we are part of a world that shapes us and in which we ought to participate. ")


It's turning into a double failure now, it seems. The initial failure back at the start of the year, when they were late to the starting blocks then slow to get going, and now again with the utter failure to even start to catch up. 

I don't know how much difference it would make but surely replacing that complete idiot von der Leyen would be a start. She's proof that it's not just in the UK that know-nothing aristos can rise to the top powered by nothing but hot air. She resembles Johnson in various respects, not least the way that her whole career has depended on who she knows, not what she knows. From wiki:



> In 2015, researchers collaborating at the VroniPlag Wiki reviewed von der Leyen's 1991 doctoral thesis and alleged that 43.5% of the thesis pages contained plagiarism, and in 23 cases citations were used that did not verify claims for which they were given.[33][34] Multiple notable German academics such as Gerhard Dannemann [de] and Volker Rieble [de] publicly accused von der Leyen of intended plagiarism.[35] The Hannover Medical School conducted an investigation and concluded in March 2016 that while the thesis contains plagiarism, no intention to deceive could be proven.[36][37]
> 
> The university decided not to revoke von der Leyen's medical degree.[36] Critics questioned the independence of the commission that reviewed the thesis as von der Leyen personally knew its director from joint work for an alumni association.[37] Various media outlets also criticized that the decision was nontransparent, not according to established rules and failing to secure high academic standards.


----------



## andysays (Mar 22, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's turning into a double failure now, it seems. The initial failure back at the start of the year, when they were late to the starting blocks then slow to get going, and now again with the utter failure to even start to catch up.
> 
> I don't know how much difference it would make but surely replacing that complete idiot von der Leyen would be a start. She's proof that it's not just in the UK that know-nothing aristos can rise to the top powered by nothing but hot air. She resembles Johnson in various respects, not least the way that her whole career has depended on who she knows, not what she knows. From wiki:


We're always being told how amazing and democratic the EU is, so surely the electorate can just vote her out at the next election, can't they...?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Mar 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> We're always being told how amazing and democratic the EU is, so surely the electorate can just vote her out at the next election, can't they...?


Who is always telling us that?


----------



## Maggot (Mar 22, 2021)

This make grim reading. 

Food and drink exports to EU down 75%.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> But ordering 3 days before brexit was a curious decision.


Aye. It's got more than a faint whiff of bollocks about it.

Love the concern in the response too ...


> Let’s just hope that the carbon frame hasn’t been damaged in transit.



Oh yes, let's!


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 22, 2021)

Maggot said:


> This make grim reading.
> 
> Food and drink exports to EU down 75%.



"The month after the UK left the EU, exports were down on the same month the previous year. Especially to the EU".

No shit Sherlock. Wasn't expecting that.


----------



## Maggot (Mar 22, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> "The month after the UK left the EU, exports were down on the same month the previous year. Especially to the EU".
> 
> No shit Sherlock. Wasn't expecting that.


75%


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> "The month after the UK left the EU, exports were down on the same month the previous year. Especially to the EU".
> 
> No shit Sherlock. Wasn't expecting that.


_Vote Leave_ certainly weren't expecting it, that's for sure.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 22, 2021)

Maggot said:


> 75%


We can't be held responsible if the EU would rather go hungry than admit defeat.


----------



## Spymaster (Mar 22, 2021)

Maggot said:


> 75%


It's ONE month and quite probably the worst one at that. Let's have a look at 6mnths and a year.


----------



## brogdale (Mar 22, 2021)

But, hey...the UK has applied to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP)!


----------



## sleaterkinney (Mar 22, 2021)

Maggot said:


> This make grim reading.
> 
> Food and drink exports to EU down 75%.


Why do you hate our freedomz?


----------



## Yossarian (Mar 22, 2021)

Maggot said:


> This make grim reading.
> 
> Food and drink exports to EU down 75%.


----------



## gosub (Mar 22, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> It's ONE month and quite probably the worst one at that. Let's have a look at 6mnths and a year.



Concure.  But that fuck up is completely on the politicians Its all very well spending  a fuckton of taxpayers money telling people to Get ready for Brexit, yet not actually finalising what it means til  2weeks before it happens .  Was always going to be a fuckup. I think we have lost a not insignificant proportion of that tradefor good  but I think quite a fair bit will bounce back


----------



## gosub (Mar 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But, hey...the UK has applied to join the Comprehensive and Progressive Trans-Pacific Partnership (CPTPP)!
> 
> View attachment 259844


Trans Polar passage will be open by 2050


----------



## editor (Mar 22, 2021)

It's not just musicians getting shafted.



> Whisky, cheese and chocolate producers have suffered the biggest post-Brexit export losses in the food and drink sector, new figures from HMRC have shown.
> 
> Analysis of the figures by the Food and Drink Federation (FDF) shows that cheese exports in January plummeted from £45m to £7m year on year, while whisky exports nosedived from £105m to £40m. Chocolate exports went from £41.4m to just £13m, a decline of 68%.





> Exports of some other goods such as salmon and beef almost stopped altogether, with declines of 98% and 92% respectively, but by value they were the 7th and 4th biggest losers of the top 10 exports to the EU.
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/mar/13/uk-exporters-brexit-damage-costs-customs-paperwork
> Overall, trade in fish, thanks partly to a  complete ban on the exports of certain live shellfish, dropped by 79%.











						Data shows collapse of UK food and drink exports post-Brexit
					

HMRC figures reveal huge year-on-year falls in trade, with whisky, cheese and chocolate worst hit




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Who is always telling us that?


No one, no one at all.

No one in the entire history of the EU, far less during the Brexit debate has ever made any dubious claims about the benefits of the EU, or even said anything positive about it.

I don't know what came over me or why I mentioned it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

gosub said:


> Trans Polar passage will be open by 2050


Depends how quickly Boris Johnson and the other former people build the route across Antarctica


----------



## philosophical (Mar 23, 2021)

I remain hopeful that the EU abandons English as one of it’s three working languages (German, French and English) and replaces it with what I think would be a good choice, Spanish.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I remain hopeful that the EU abandons English as one of it’s three working languages (German, French and English) and replaces it with what I think would be a good choice, Spanish.



Why do you think anyone here would care?


----------



## gosub (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Why do you think anyone here would care?


Que?


----------



## philosophical (Mar 23, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Why do you think anyone here would care?



Maybe if they had Spanish GCSE.
Also I hope it would irritate the cunts who voted leave if they harbour imperialistic thoughts.


----------



## kebabking (Mar 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Maybe if they had Spanish GCSE.
> Also I hope it would irritate the cunts who voted leave if they harbour imperialistic thoughts.



I'm genuinely interested in why you think Brits would be interested in the languages spoken in an organisation they are not members of...

Why would I care?


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

I don't know how significant the official languages of the EU are to every day actions by every day people, but I would imagine that a certain number of English speaking Irish residents could be inconvenienced by this suggestion, if indeed it is significant  

But after philosophical has argued for blackouts in NI, I suppose forcing Irish citizens to learn Spanish was a logical next step.


----------



## philosophical (Mar 23, 2021)

Blackouts in Northern Ireland is what leave voters voted for.
Or to paraphrase somebody somewhere did those voters vote to leave but retain the exact same benefits of remaining?
Irish citizens would not be ‘forced’ to learn Spanish any more than they are forced to learn German, French or English at present.


----------



## belboid (Mar 23, 2021)

Spanish, lol.  

just to really fuck off the Catalans, Basques and Galicians


----------



## andysays (Mar 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Blackouts in Northern Ireland is what leave voters voted for.
> Or to paraphrase somebody somewhere did those voters vote to leave but retain the exact same benefits of remaining?
> Irish citizens would not be ‘forced’ to learn Spanish any more than they are forced to learn German, French or English at present.


So what is the significance of the "official" EU languages to those citizens of the EU who are not native speakers of any of those languages? 

Does it actually make any difference to most EU citizens what the "official" languages are?


----------



## philosophical (Mar 23, 2021)

I believe there are two strata. Official languages and working languages.


----------



## Raheem (Mar 23, 2021)

Think it's something that came about because, in the olden days, it was standard for big international agreements to have official English and French versions, with other translations not being legally binding. Same still applies with the UN.

It's not really to do with how many French and English speakers there are in the EU. The official language of EFTA is English, even though none of it's member countries speak English (officially, at least).


----------



## teuchter (Mar 23, 2021)

It's pretty handy that loads of EU stuff is written in English. It's not like EU legislation, regulations and so on are going to become irrelevant to the UK now.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 23, 2021)

They should prepare for the future and make Mandarin the official language.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 23, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's pretty handy that loads of EU stuff is written in English. It's not like EU legislation, regulations and so on are going to become irrelevant to the UK now.


Although it can catch you out because the Euros use English in a more literal way than the English, meaning that sometimes words mean something completely different in EUglish than in actual English.  An example is the word “actual”, which the Euros use to mean ”current”.  And when I was dealing with the French regulator on something, they were forever asking us to ”precise” the reasons for things, which took us a while to get the hang of.  More here:





__





						Euro English - Wikipedia
					






					en.wikipedia.org
				




It can be worse when somebody uses your language but uses it differently than when they just use a completely different language.


----------



## belboid (Mar 23, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I believe there are two strata. Official languages and working languages.


official and procedural. 

Official is whatever is recognised as 'official' by member nation states, thus Castilian is in, but not Catalan. Irish is a pretty recent addition.  So English remains as an official language because (like Dutch, Swedish and Greek) it is used by two states. Even now, almost half of EU citizens speaks enough English to hold a conversation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Mar 23, 2021)

teuchter said:


> It's pretty handy that loads of EU stuff is written in English. It's not like EU legislation, regulations and so on are going to become irrelevant to the UK now.


No indeed there'll be a continuing need for toilet paper in the UK, so you'll be able to read before you wipe


----------



## Raheem (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They should prepare for the future and make Mandarin the official language.


Don't you believe it. The Lingua Franca of the future will be memes and emojis.


----------



## mojo pixy (Mar 23, 2021)

kabbes said:


> __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



"Euro English" lol, someone's taking the piss. It doesn't even matter either, because a) it's funny and b) _everybody _gets English wrong, even the English (which is largely why English is the mess it is)


----------



## philosophical (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They should prepare for the future and make Mandarin the official language.



Absolutely.
My wife has had several Mandarin textbooks published, and she is a lecturer in the language at a London University.
The demand is out there.


----------



## kabbes (Mar 23, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> "Euro English" lol, someone's taking the piss. It doesn't even matter either, because a) it's funny and b) _everybody _gets English wrong, even the English (which is largely why English is the mess it is)


Euro English is what EU legislation is drafted in, though, and those differences can genuinely catch you out.


----------



## Elpenor (Mar 23, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> They should prepare for the future and make Mandarin the official language.



Or Vogon


----------



## ska invita (Mar 23, 2021)

ska invita said:


> The principle of buying and distributing collectively so both poorer and richer states all get a fair share of the vaccine is a sound one.
> The principle of Bullingdon Boys throwing money at the mess that they make is a shit one.


 my point confirmed from the horses:








						'Greed' and 'capitalism' helped UK's vaccines success, says PM
					

But Boris Johnson immediately retracts the comments made during a Zoom meeting with Tory MPs.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Mar 31, 2021)

"negligence and maladministration" lol
good luck with the court case - not sure if they've got a legal foot to stand on - I expect not - but it definitely is negligence and maladministration


----------



## Doppelgänger (Mar 31, 2021)

ska invita said:


> "negligence and maladministration" lol
> good luck with the court case - not sure if they've got a legal foot to stand on - I expect not - but it definitely is negligence and maladministration



The British government doesn't give two fucks about any of this. They will just continue to do as they please and for whatever reason the electorate will continue to turn a blind eye.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 1, 2021)

At Harwich port in Essex they appear to have given up any pretence of customs clearing import trailer loads of fresh foods destined for UK supermarket shelves. The idea was from Jan 1st there would be “light touch” clearance & then full clearance with proper sanitary checks from July. Never gonna happen. Trailers are pulled straight off the ferry from Holland & UK truck units hitch up to them & take them away. The driver accompanied foreign trucks drive straight off ferry & up the road. Either that or it’s empty supermarket shelves. Covid tests ? Who needs ’em ? The government are perfectly aware that as long as the supermarket shelves are full the general public will not notice the difference & that is all that matters.


Meanwhile UK exports to EU are subject to full customs clearance checks with every i dotted & every t crossed correctly or the load goes nowhere.  I try to explain all that to my brexit voting neighbours but it is lost on them. What do they know about customs clearance & what do they care ?


----------



## realitybites (Apr 7, 2021)

Besides a small insert on the front page of the guardian HERE about the sixth night of unrest, there really is little conversation being had in the UK about the current conflict in Ireland. Brexit and the erosion of trust surrounding British politics & the Good Friday agreement must own some responsibility for this sorry affair.


----------



## philosophical (Apr 8, 2021)

Don’t worry. Lexiters have an instant solution.
They can go on about neo liberalism, red walls, betrayed working classes, migrant drowning EU and the rest, but they voted ‘leave’ and have no solution to the reality they have ushered in.
Political poseurs and frauds, probably previously holding forth in the kitchens at parties going on about how ideologically voting brexit was a good thing for true left wingers to do...all the time ignoring facing up to the fresh border issues they have created by voting leave.
Lexiters are even worse cunts than the Farage lot, because at least the Farage types are honest in their cuntishness and foreigner hatred, Lexiters probably think of themselves as cool good guys.


----------



## BobDavis (Apr 12, 2021)

One R4 this morning & I wern’t paying that much attention but they were interviewing a city type about brexit. His argument was just how good brexit could be for UK business if only the rest of the world would do what we want it too. For example he said the UK & EU should “work together“ to simplify customs procedures & pointed out the EU had put up unforeseen barriers to trade for shellfish & so on. He said the opportunities for trade with the US were great but we need a trade deal with them.

This was not some blustering politician arguing from a base of no knowledge this was a bloke who should know what he was talking about but first requirement was that rest of the world should fall in with what UK wants then it would all be ok. Which it would be if only the rest of the world would see our sensible & logical pov was his argument.


----------



## two sheds (Apr 12, 2021)

Plus we should obviously turn over all our services like the NHS to the Americans. That would work for business, too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 12, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Plus we should obviously turn over all our services like the NHS to the Americans. That would work for business, too.


maybe they'd rendition Johnson too


----------



## two sheds (Apr 12, 2021)

or render using quick-set concrete there'd be a market for that.


----------



## philosophical (May 4, 2021)

I read a story tonight about France cutting off electricity to Jersey.
I suppose if leave is supposed to mean leave, with the added notion of they need us more than we need them, then the UK and/or Jersey doesn't need French leccy.
I vaguely remember a story a while back about the Government looking to deploy floating power stations around Northern Ireland.
If France can cut the Jersey electricity, then it might give quite a few people quite a few ideas.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (May 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I read a story tonight about France cutting off electricity to Jersey.



And came in your pants.





> I suppose if leave is supposed to mean leave, with the added notion of they need us more than we need them, then the UK and/or Jersey doesn't need French leccy.
> I vaguely remember a story a while back about the Government looking to deploy floating power stations around Northern Ireland.
> If France can cut the Jersey electricity, then it might give quite a few people quite a few ideas.



Jersey was never in the EU and one deranged French politician with the same psycho mentality as you doesn't make for official French policy, sorry to disappoint.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2021)

France threatens to cut power to Jersey amid fishing row
					

The threat comes amid an escalating row between France and the UK over post-Brexit fishing rights.



					www.bbc.co.uk
				





_Jersey has the sole power to issue the licences, and as of last week all fishing boats are required to have a licence to operate there.
On Friday, the Jersey government granted 41 permits to French fishing vessels that are equipped with technology that allows them to be located.
But the French government claimed the list of approved ships came with further demands that "were not arranged or discussed, and which we were not notified about".

The French fisheries ministry said the new rules dictated "where the ships can go and cannot go" as well as the number of days fishermen can spend in the area.
"This is absolutely unacceptable," Ms Girardin said. "If we accept this for Jersey, it would imperil our access everywhere."_


Sounds a bit like sovereignty to me.  I'd like to agree with Bahnoff but this is the French we are talking about - could go anyway.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If France can cut the Jersey electricity, then it might give quite a few people quite a few ideas.


I'd settle for it giving you just one notion you'd not flogged to death


----------



## philosophical (May 4, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And came in your pants.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fuck me it's Sigmund Freud.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Fuck me it's Sigmund Freud.


Sigmund Freud knew the channel Islands were the final remnant of the Duchy of Normandy and thus never part of England (& so not the UK either)


----------



## ska invita (May 4, 2021)

gosub said:


> this is the French we are talking about - could go anyway.


These French, what are they like?


----------



## philosophical (May 4, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sigmund Freud knew the channel Islands were the final remnant of the Duchy of Normandy and thus never part of England (& so not the UK either)



I said 'the UK and/or Jersey'.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 4, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I said 'the UK and/or Jersey'.


Sadly you continued typing


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> These French, what are they like?



A mystery, wrapped in an enigma, but they definitely do it deliberately.


----------



## ska invita (May 4, 2021)

These French sound terrible. Sound like they just dont know the meaning of _fair play._ Incapable of it probably. Very important that the Brits dont let them get away with it. Need to teach them a thing or two, that sort of thing.


----------



## gosub (May 4, 2021)

ska invita said:


> These French sound terrible. Sound like they just dont know the meaning of _fair play._ Incapable of it probably. Very important that the Brits dont let them get away with it. Need to teach them a thing or two, that sort of thing.



Spent a fair bit of my time working with a reasonably distinguished French company, found them to have a better understanding of the meaning of fair play than their British counterpart.   Still, EUropean leccy has been dropping Hz too often for my liking in last few years glad  UK - EU don't share AC


----------



## brogdale (May 5, 2021)

With a population of just 100k, difficult to see what they haven't started to harness their plentiful wind resources with a turbine farm.


----------



## philosophical (May 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Sadly you continued typing



Sadly you continue to be a control freak stalker.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Sadly you continue to be a control freak stalker.


Repetition of a load of auld shite doesn't make it a true load of auld shite. If you really thought I was in any way shape or form stalking you you'd have been boring editor to tears about it and I'm sure we'd have seen him say something about it.


----------



## teuchter (May 5, 2021)

No reason to make a fuss about borders really. It's quite easy to change them if they are inconvenient.









						Belgian farmer accidentally moves French border
					

The farmer moved a two-century-old border stone into French territory as it was blocking his tractor.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## philosophical (May 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Repetition of a load of auld shite doesn't make it a true load of auld shite. If you really thought I was in any way shape or form stalking you you'd have been boring editor to tears about it and I'm sure we'd have seen him say something about it.



Is editor supposed to be a moderator?
Yesterday there was fresh news about France, Jersey, Fishing and Electricity, and I commented about it.
Fresh news.
You decided not to make any mention of that news, but instead decided to go with the personals, as usual.
Stalker behaviour whenever I post, and control freakery in changing whatever agenda there may be in the light of the news, into your tiresome wankerish desire to re shape things for your own reasons.
Is there ever a thread or discussion that you don’t contribute something to in your own special creepy way?


----------



## editor (May 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Repetition of a load of auld shite doesn't make it a true load of auld shite. If you really thought I was in any way shape or form stalking you you'd have been boring editor to tears about it and I'm sure we'd have seen him say something about it.





philosophical said:


> Is editor supposed to be a moderator?
> Yesterday there was fresh news about France, Jersey, Fishing and Electricity, and I commented about it.
> Fresh news.
> You decided not to make any mention of that news, but instead decided to go with the personals, as usual.
> ...


I'd like you both to go on mutual ignore for a month as your ongoing beef is causing nothing but disruption to this thread. Please take any discussion of this decision to the feedback forum.


----------



## andysays (May 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I read a story tonight about France cutting off electricity to Jersey.
> I suppose if leave is supposed to mean leave, with the added notion of they need us more than we need them, then the UK and/or Jersey doesn't need French leccy.
> I vaguely remember a story a while back about the Government looking to deploy floating power stations around Northern Ireland.
> If France can cut the Jersey electricity, then it might give quite a few people quite a few ideas.


You're being unnecessarily modest here.

Credit where credit's due - the truth is that Macron heard about your earlier suggestion about cutting off the electricity provided to NI from across the current Irish border and thought France could try the same tactic on the Channel Islands.


----------



## philosophical (May 5, 2021)

I see the UK are sending a couple of gunboats (?) to the Channel Island waters because it is said that there will be a blockade by 100 French fishing vessels tomorrow.
Previously the dispute the UK lost (?) against Iceland was called the ‘cod wars’, I wonder what any conflict over this will be called.
The Sark strife?
Herm hostility?
The battle of blenny?


----------



## Raheem (May 5, 2021)

The mackerel to-do.


----------



## rubbershoes (May 5, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I see the UK are sending a couple of gunboats (?) to the Channel Island waters because it is said that there will be a blockade by 100 French fishing vessels tomorrow.
> Previously the dispute the UK lost (?) against Iceland was called the ‘cod wars’, I wonder what any conflict over this will be called.
> The Sark strife?
> Herm hostility?
> The battle of blenny?


 
Boris sees himself as Churchillian so he'd love to be a wartime leader


----------



## ska invita (May 5, 2021)

kebabking this sending of the gunboats is exactly parallel with the east asian gunboat thing we were talking about - all for show. Being sent "to observe". No chance of these boats seeing any actual action - its all for domestic consumption. Dont you reckon?


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

Nah this one's serious, much easier to declare war on France


----------



## spitfire (May 5, 2021)

Just heard from Mlle Fire's mother in law in Toulon (French Portsmouth) 

All leave has been cancelled and the Charles De Gaulle is getting up steam as we speak.


----------



## spitfire (May 5, 2021)

lol not really.

Quick scan of the French news media is quite an eye opener. Nothing. Nothing at all.


----------



## Spymaster (May 5, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Just heard from Mlle Fire's mother in law in Toulon (French Portsmouth)
> 
> All leave has been cancelled and the Charles De Gaulle is getting up steam as we speak.


We send a couple of patrol boats, they send an aircraft carrier


----------



## spitfire (May 5, 2021)

spitfire said:


> lol not really.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

spitfire said:


> lol not really.
> 
> Quick scan of the French news media is quite an eye opener. Nothing. Nothing at all.


but why are they keeping it secret?


----------



## Pickman's model (May 5, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> We send a couple of patrol boats, they send an aircraft carrier


We can send an aircraft carrier.

Just not the aircraft too.


----------



## spitfire (May 5, 2021)

two sheds said:


> but why are they keeping it secret?
> 
> View attachment 266866



OPSEC   

And they don't really care.


----------



## two sheds (May 5, 2021)

Or Smersh?


----------



## spitfire (May 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Or Smersh?



For mersh merk smersh. 

Zut alors.


----------



## Yossarian (May 6, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> We send a couple of patrol boats, they send an aircraft carrier


----------



## T & P (May 6, 2021)

The Channel Islands’ residents would be far better off under French rule anyway. I for one would be welcoming my new Gallic overlords with open arms.


----------



## two sheds (May 6, 2021)

cheese eating surrender monkey


----------



## kebabking (May 6, 2021)

ska invita said:


> kebabking this sending of the gunboats is exactly parallel with the east asian gunboat thing we were talking about - all for show. Being sent "to observe". No chance of these boats seeing any actual action - its all for domestic consumption. Dont you reckon?



Nah, not just...

Fishing boats (of all nationalities) can get a bit arsey with each other - rammings, and dragging each others nets - but they tend to limit that stuff when an OPV/Fisheries vessel (anyone's) is keeping an eye on them. So having two ships there _will _keep a bit of a lid on the argy-bargy, everyone will play a bit more nicely, and so it will be more easily resolved.

Interesting titbit on the carrier group - New Zealand have decided that one of their ships will join it for exercises and Freedom of Navigation stuff, as will the French and Australians. Germany however has decided that their ship will reverse it's original patrol route so that it _can't _join the UK+ group, but also they have decided that it will do a port visit to Shanghai. Much eyebrow raising in the EU...


----------



## kebabking (May 6, 2021)

From this morning...


25 French boats turned up off Jersey, HMS Tamar and Severn were there, two boats got into the harbour, but they have all fucked off for now.

They might be back (tide?), and they might not....


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 6, 2021)

> The island’s leading oyster and mussel fisherman, Chris Le Masurier, is scathing and says the problem is not Brexit but the local government’s “incompetent bunch of idiots”.



I can believe that. 









						Jersey row: fishing leader says French threats ‘close to act of war’
					

Don Thompson says response from France is ‘like something you would see from Iran or Russia’




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Mr Moose (May 6, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Nah this one's serious, much easier to declare war on France



Well there is an election.


----------



## BobDavis (May 6, 2021)

Red meat for my brexit voting neighbour who wants to kick out all foreign fishing boats out of UK waters even though he doesn’t eat fish.


----------



## philosophical (May 6, 2021)

Just red meat!


----------



## cupid_stunt (May 6, 2021)

Oh, France has sent two Navy ships now, and the Jersey government is pointing out that they haven't asked permission to enter Jersey's waters, I think they are enjoying the drama TBH.


----------



## kabbes (May 6, 2021)

I bet the Bailiwick of Guernsey are behind all this


----------



## Raheem (May 6, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> Well there is an election.


Got to admit, the Tories know a good loophole when they see it. No canvassing today, but it doesn't say anything about a pretend war with France.


----------



## philosophical (May 6, 2021)

I reckon it would be great if Greenpeace or whoever sent in a boat to stand up for the fish.
Will somebody think of the children?


----------



## Mr Moose (May 6, 2021)

This looks big and clever.


----------



## glitch hiker (May 6, 2021)

Mr Moose said:


> This looks big and clever.



Rambo: Fish Blood


----------



## gosub (May 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I reckon it would be great if Greenpeace or whoever sent in a boat to stand up for the fish.
> Will somebody think of the children?


You do remember what DGSE did to the Rainbow Warrior?


----------



## ska invita (May 6, 2021)

I like the proxy war being fought between this thread and the EU thread on this subject. I have a feeling this thread is France in all this!


----------



## philosophical (May 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> You do remember what DGSE did to the Rainbow Warrior?



Yes. Bastards.
In New Zealand wasn’t it?


----------



## TopCat (May 8, 2021)

Well Sainsbury’s are now selling frozen raw Scottish languestine. Big ones, 10 for approximately seven quid. Never seen them before uncooked in a supermarket. Result!


----------



## BobDavis (May 8, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well Sainsbury’s are now selling frozen raw Scottish languestine. Big ones, 10 for approximately seven quid. Never seen them before uncooked in a supermarket. Result!


That's loads cheaper than in Spain. Eat for Brexit.   

In other news the Jersey fishermen now barred from selling their catches in France are not news anymore. Their purpose was served on Thursday getting enraged brexiteers out to vote Tory because the French were revolting.


----------



## TopCat (May 8, 2021)

BobDavis said:


> That's loads cheaper than in Spain. Eat for Brexit.
> 
> In other news the Jersey fishermen now barred from selling their catches in France are not news anymore. Their purpose was served on Thursday getting enraged brexiteers out to vote Tory because the French were revolting.


I went to Deptford market to get something to go with the shellfish. They are getting better Cornish lobster than before and cheaper too.

Let the French go without. They have plenty of  
Andouillette.


----------



## TopCat (May 9, 2021)

Benefit of Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Benefit of Brexit. View attachment 267457


That's so French to be taking lunch at midday!


----------



## editor (May 9, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Benefit of Brexit. View attachment 267457


Looks fucking revolting. Like a big boiled cockroach.


----------



## BobDavis (May 9, 2021)

Tbf it looks much better when it is frozen scampi.

aka Dublin bay prawn which Rick Stein reckons is best in the world.


----------



## kabbes (May 9, 2021)

editor said:


> Looks fucking revolting. Like a big boiled cockroach.


I wouldn’t know because I’ve never eaten boiled cockroach.  If they tasted as good as those langoustines look, though, I’d definitely give them a go


----------



## andysays (May 9, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I wouldn’t know because I’ve never eaten boiled cockroach.  If they tasted as good as those langoustines look, though, I’d definitely give them a go


Just you wait until the effects of Brexit *really* kick in and boiled cockroach is the only protein anyone can get...


----------



## Storm Fox (May 13, 2021)

So the Immigration Service  is sending EU Citizens to Detention Centres such as Yarl's Wood for people daring to come here for job interviews



> Europeans with job interviews are among those being denied entry and locked up. They have spoken of being subjected to the traumatic and humiliating experience of expulsion, despite Home Office rules that explicitly allow non-visa holders to attend interviews.






> When the Guardian first spoke to María on Friday she was at Yarl’s Wood and scared that she had been exposed to Covid. Later that day she was released and ordered to quarantine at her sister’s home in Bexleyheath, near London, until 17 February. Border Force officials kept her passport.
> 
> “So much time is being wasted,” she said. “The worst thing was that no one at Yarl’s Wood could tell me what was going to happen. My freedom had been taken away and I couldn’t get legal advice.”



They are being denied consular access or contact and there is a COVID issue at Yarl's Wood which is being denied by officials . 

See EU citizens arriving in UK being locked up and expelled for details. This makes me feel ashamed to be British.


----------



## Yossarian (May 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Looks fucking revolting. Like a big boiled cockroach.



They're far more closely related to woodlice, though I'm not if woodlice taste the same.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Looks fucking revolting. Like a big boiled cockroach.


Looks nothing like a boiled cockroach


----------



## editor (May 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Looks nothing like a boiled cockroach


It does to me but thanks for your opinion.


----------



## Pickman's model (May 13, 2021)

editor said:


> It does to me but thanks for your opinion.


No, boiled cockroaches are a deep brown. And that's before you look at the physiological differences.


----------



## teuchter (May 13, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> No, boiled cockroaches are a deep brown. And that's before you look at the physiological differences.


No surpise that you are a keen student of the results of boiling cockroaches.


----------



## ska invita (May 13, 2021)

editor said:


> It does to me but thanks for your opinion.


yeah it was being stoned on skunk and examining an egg-laden shrimp that made me realise wtf is this insect shit im not eating that and turned me veggie there and then


----------



## killer b (May 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well Sainsbury’s are now selling frozen raw Scottish languestine. Big ones, 10 for approximately seven quid. Never seen them before uncooked in a supermarket. Result!


Sainsbury's have been selling these in their taste the difference range for at least a year if the reviews on their website are anything to go by.


----------



## Spymaster (May 13, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> They're far more closely related to woodlice, though I'm not if woodlice taste the same.


Woodlice taste like parsley. Someone told me they taste like prawns so I tried a couple. Not unpleasant. If you like parsley.


----------



## brogdale (May 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> Sainsbury's have been selling these in their taste the difference range for at least a year if the reviews on their website are anything to go by.


Just when the Champagne Lexiteers thought they'd found a win.


----------



## killer b (May 13, 2021)

how do you cook your langoustines TopCat? reading through the reviews lots of people who bought them from sainbury's seemed to struggle - I was thinking of picking some up this weekend and don't want to fuck it up


----------



## TopCat (May 13, 2021)

killer b said:


> how do you cook your langoustines TopCat? reading through the reviews lots of people who bought them from sainbury's seemed to struggle - I was thinking of picking some up this weekend and don't want to fuck it up


They are not like a big prawn, more like a little lobster with heavier armour.

I blanched mine and cooled them in cold water. Then heated some garlic in a lot of butter and removed it with a slotted spoon before it coloured.

Then take a cleaver and chop them critters in half lengthways.

Heat the butter up fast. Add the languestine and a big handful of chopped parsley, after a minute add some Chablis. Cook on high for two minutes. 

Enjoy!


----------



## two sheds (May 13, 2021)

You have to kill them by dropping them in boiling water first. A lot of people forget that.


----------



## stdP (May 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


> You have to kill them by dropping them in boiling water first. A lot of people forget that.



I think you need to specify whether you're talking about leavers, remainers, tories or langoustines with that remark.


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

Frost hopes EU will not ‘react’ if UK suspends Northern Ireland protocol
					

Brexit minister tells Commons’ select committee that Britain could act unilaterally over border checks




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Frost hopes EU will not ‘react’ if UK suspends Northern Ireland protocol
> 
> 
> Brexit minister tells Commons’ select committee that Britain could act unilaterally over border checks
> ...


Maybe, with Poots’ election, Frost could add “pray” as well as hope?


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Maybe, with Poots’ election, Frost could add “pray” as well as hope?


I’m waiting for Poots to make biblical references regarding the EU anytime soon.


----------



## philosophical (May 18, 2021)

Perplexed.
Those who voted leave knew what they were voting for.
How come those voters have not sorted out what leave means on the land border between the whole of the UK and the EU by now?
I suspect it’s because those voters are cunts.


----------



## brogdale (May 18, 2021)

Blaming voters?


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Blaming voters?
> 
> View attachment 268910


A united ireland is closer since brexit. Hoey won’t be happy but hey.


----------



## editor (May 18, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A united ireland is closer since brexit. Hoey won’t be happy but hey.



I doubt if the people getting caught up in the Brexit-spawned violence are very happy either. 









						Brexit has threatened the peace in Northern Ireland | DW | 10.04.2021
					

Molotov cocktails and barricades have returned to Northern Ireland. The conflict there is 4 centuries old. But Brexit is the new reason why the situation has reached the boiling point in what had been an era of peace.




					www.dw.com
				












						Analysis: What is Brexit doing to Northern Ireland?
					

Anger over post-Brexit trading rules is a factor in the violence that has erupted, writes Adam Fleming.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## gosub (May 18, 2021)

A Brexit Post-Mortem for the City | by Howard Davies - Project Syndicate
					

Howard Davies explains why, despite dire forecasts, London has continued to thrive as a global financial center.




					www.project-syndicate.org


----------



## TopCat (May 18, 2021)

gosub said:


> A Brexit Post-Mortem for the City | by Howard Davies - Project Syndicate
> 
> 
> Howard Davies explains why, despite dire forecasts, London has continued to thrive as a global financial center.
> ...


Good riddance.


----------



## brogdale (May 25, 2021)

Q1 post transition trade numbers show differential between EU & non-EU trade:


----------



## ska invita (Jun 10, 2021)

New rules coming in on selling* anything* to the EU from 1st July (previously this didn't apply under a certain value)

"A shop can:

warn its customers that local import VAT will be payable by the customer to the shipping agent on or before delivery, on all shipments entering the EU after 1 July.


register under IOSS (Import One Stop Shop) in one EU country to pay VAT locally, for all EU country shipments; this requires an EU-established intermediary or VAT agent/representative - IOSS - Taxation and Customs Union - European Commission


*wait for the UK government to open the promised UK IOSS access, where UK businesses can register for IOSS - currently we're told "it is not expected that the UK IOSS registration portal will be available for use for the 1 July 2021 launch. Further guidance on this will be made available before 1 July 2021." **https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/eu-e-commerce-package/eu-vat-e-commerce-package*"


Total nightmare for shops, and so complicated - different countries have different VAT rates. Some items are VAT exempt arent they? Yet guidance suggests even those items should be charged. ?? Fuck only knows.

That .gov link suggest this applies to Northern Ireland too

Biggest fuck up is the government "help" - there is some kind of portal but its not even going to be ready on time.
Speaking to a couple of people I know who this is affecting (affects anyone with a shop it seems), they are going to stop selling to those regions affected.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 10, 2021)

shameless total lies propaganda never ceases to amaze me


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2021)

ska invita said:


> View attachment 272857
> 
> shameless total lies propaganda never ceases to amaze me


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 10, 2021)

We need to talk about Maros Sefcovic who is leading the EU discussions on N. Ireland


----------



## brogdale (Jun 10, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> We need to talk about Maros Sefcovic who is leading the EU discussions on N. Ireland


Interesting; why's that?


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Interesting; why's that?


As its quite an emotionally charged and technically complex issue. Given a choice between playing the player or the ball..... How does Maros say the letter 'h'?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

gosub said:


> As its quite an emotionally charged and technically complex issue. Given a choice between playing the player or the ball..... How does Maros say the letter 'h'?


Eh?

Am I being slow here?
We do or we don't "need to talk about Maros Sefcovic"?

Not sure I'm following this.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2021)

Let’s just say that he’s what is politely described politically as a ‘family man ‘ who supports ‘Christian values ‘ .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Let’s just say that he’s what is politely described politically as a ‘family man ‘ who supports ‘Christian values ‘ .




Hopefully no celebrity doctors will falsely state he's having his end away elsewhere then.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Let’s just say that he’s what is politely described politically as a ‘family man ‘ who supports ‘Christian values ‘ .


Oh, I see...holds some regressive socio-political viewpoints, eh?

But what that's got to do with him representing the supra-state's position that the UK should not renege of a deal that it agreed?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Oh, I see...holds some regressive socio-political viewpoints, eh?
> 
> But what that's got to do with him representing the supra-state's position that the UK should not renege of a deal that it agreed?


Absolutely nothing should come in the way of that .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Absolutely nothing should come in the way of that .


Presumably he was selected because he can/will play hardball with blustercunt.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Let’s just say that he’s what is politely described politically as a ‘family man ‘ who supports ‘Christian values ‘ .


He is a right wing bigot.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

TopCat said:


> He is a right wing bigot.


Ah, that's why he was chosen; chemistry, eh?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Presumably he was selected because he can/will play hardball with blustercunt.


I’m sure that he has many skills that are appreciated within the EU and by some posters on these boards .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m sure that he has many skills that are appreciated within the EU and by some posters on these boards .


Sure he has, but I can't see how that impacts on the present negotiations any more than David Frost's personal political beliefs?
The issue is pretty clear-cut; the UK wants to renege on the agreement/treaty it agreed 6 months ago and the supra-state doesn't want that; can't see how the repugnant views of those involved really inform that process?


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Sure he has, but I can't see how that impacts on the present negotiations any more than David Frost's personal political beliefs?
> The issue is pretty clear-cut; the UK wants to renege on the agreement/treaty it agreed 6 months ago and the supra-state doesn't want that; can't see how the repugnant views of those involved really inform that process?


Pretty clear cut that all I said was that we need to talk about Maros Sefcovic  .


----------



## brogdale (Jun 11, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Pretty clear cut that all I said was that we need to talk about Maros Sefcovic  .


Fair enough.

I was assuming you thought his politics were pertinent to the current negotiations.


----------



## gosub (Jun 11, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Eh?
> 
> Am I being slow here?
> We do or we don't "need to talk about Maros Sefcovic"?
> ...


Talking public health vet certs would be more productive


----------



## editor (Jun 14, 2021)

Interesting observation: 


> They might live in claustrophobic neighbourhoods made worse by the intrusive and violent world of Snapchat, but these kids aren’t stupid, and what is happening in the political world is not lost on them. Tony, who runs the local community centre, described by Thapar as a “tiny island amid a sea storm”, says he believes that the nationalism and xenophobia around Brexit, and scandals such as Windrush and Grenfell, make young people in areas such as Brixton “feel like they don’t belong … it sends the message: you are not wanted”.











						The truth about teenage knife crime
					

It's too easy to blame drug turf wars for the surge in street stabbings




					unherd.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 14, 2021)

tbh i'd have thought that was the point of it
after all nationalism and xenophobia are against some things as well as for others


----------



## editor (Jun 15, 2021)

THIS is what makes all the expense, the division and the rising xenophobia worth it!



> Boris Johnson has said the UK and Australia’s post-Brexit trade deal shows “global Britain at its best”, despite predictions that it will only boost the economy by 0.02 per cent over the coming 15 years.











						Boris Johnson hails Australia deal that will ‘grow the economy by just 0.02%’ - follow live
					

Follow live updates below




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## brogdale (Jun 15, 2021)

editor said:


> THIS is what makes all the expense, the division and the rising xenophobia worth it!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At last; a clear-cut, no-nonsense Brexit bonus; the farmers will be rejoicing as we speak. 

A really nice midwinter boost for them.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

Cheaper wine yay!


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

Australian wine is actually really good, the stuff you get there I mean, not the shite that fills UK supermarket shelves, but it doesn't travel well, so I can't see the good stuff becoming much more prevalent, cost will be quite high anyway cos of Aussie taxes and shipping


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Australian wine is actually really good, the stuff you get there I mean, not the shite that fills UK supermarket shelves, but it doesn't travel well, so I can't see the good stuff becoming much more prevalent, cost will be quite high anyway cos of Aussie taxes and shipping


Costs will be lower as no tariffs.


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Costs will be lower as no tariffs.


Almost 9p a bottle!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Australian wine is actually really good, the stuff you get there I mean, not the shite that fills UK supermarket shelves, but it doesn't travel well, so I can't see the good stuff becoming much more prevalent, cost will be quite high anyway cos of Aussie taxes and shipping


Mind you the shite that fills UK supermarket shelves is bloody nice, never had a bad bottle. Just recently McGuigan Black Label which is lovely.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Cheaper wine yay!


Massively increased food miles yay!


----------



## Supine (Jun 16, 2021)

Does anyone really think supermarkets will reduce the cost of wine by a few pence?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> Does anyone really think supermarkets will reduce the cost of wine by a few pence?


Yes.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

Supine said:


> Does anyone really think supermarkets will reduce the cost of wine by a few pence?


I’m sure ones in the EU would


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Massively increased food miles yay!


I don’t think Australia will be moving anywhere.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

Will no-one think of the English vineyard owners?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Will no-one think of the English vineyard owners?


I thing Denbigh will be fine.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Mind you the shite that fills UK supermarket shelves is bloody nice, never had a bad bottle. Just recently McGuigan Black Label which is lovely.


Yeah, it's goon wine. Inoffensive and cheap. But I'm talking about actual good wine, of which there is plenty in Australia.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

Australian wine is not shipped in bottles and as a result is more carbon efficient than French wine. It may not satisfy wine snobs, but if you are that snooty about wine, buy English.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Australian wine is not shipped in bottles and as a result is more carbon efficient than French wine. It may not satisfy wine snobs, but if you are that snooty about wine, buy English.


I thought that Brexit supporters were supposed to be patriotic?
Surely English/Welsh/Scots or NI wine would be the default, not the imported stuff?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I thought that Brexit supporters were supposed to be patriotic?



A lie put out by remainers to smear us, I drink mostly French or Italian lager and Chilean or Argentinian wine. Brexiteers are true global citizens, unlike these Little Europeans who cling to the EU and fear all outside its borders.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A lie put out by remainers to smear us, I drink mostly French or Italian lager and Chilean or Argentinian wine. Brexiteers are true global citizens, unlike these Little Europeans who cling to the EU and fear all outside its borders.


You people; you literally hate your own country.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Yeah, it's goon wine. Inoffensive and cheap. But I'm talking about actual good wine, of which there is plenty in Australia.


Can't argue with that since I've never tried them. 

As I say I love the reasonably cheap ones I've had, as with Californian wine I've never had a bad bottle. I'm comparing it with the French and European wines I've had which generally seem to have an unpleasant bitter taste. Again though, I never spend a lot on wines so I can't talk for the expensive ones.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I thought that Brexit supporters were supposed to be patriotic?
> Surely English/Welsh/Scots or NI wine would be the default, not the imported stuff?


Only in the same imaginary world where remainers refuse to buy U.K. produce cos it’s no longer in the EU . Hang on that gives me an idea for a post Brexit Cheadle High Street episode .


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I thought that Brexit supporters were supposed to be patriotic?
> Surely English/Welsh/Scots or NI wine would be the default, not the imported stuff?


No.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Only in the same imaginary world where remainers refuse to buy U.K. produce cos it’s no longer in the EU . Hang on that gives me an idea for a post Brexit Cheadle High Street episode .


We need more episodes.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> We need more episodes.


Be a bit like Dads Army remake but with none of the old characters. I occasionally sketch out a few notes based on some posters on here though. Prob cause a riot.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> I don’t think Australia will be moving anywhere.


Say what?


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I thought that Brexit supporters were supposed to be patriotic?
> Surely English/Welsh/Scots or NI wine would be the default, not the imported stuff?


If they care about the environment, having to buy food from half way across the world isn't generally seen as much of a win. But blue passport, yay!


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Say what?


There won’t be ‘massively increased food miles’ because the difference is so small that barely any more will be imported.  Major wine producers without tariff free wine are in South America and New Zealand.   One of which is even further away.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 16, 2021)

belboid said:


> I don’t think Australia will be moving anywhere.


I do (some several centimetres northwards per year, with a slight rotational component).








						Australia Is Drifting So Fast GPS Can't Keep Up
					

A significant correction must be made by the end of the year for navigation technology to keep working smoothly.




					www.nationalgeographic.com


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

This thread is at its best when we derail into wine and geology


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> I do (some several centimetres northwards per year, with a slight rotational component).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I trust airlines will be reducing prices accordingly.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> This thread is at its best when we derail into wine and geology



English wine, Albury Vineyard is the same hill as Denbies, however as Albury's slopes face SSW and Denbies' E, Albury wines are far superior, especially their sparking wines which are finer than anything I have encountered anywhere else in the world.


----------



## belboid (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> This thread is at its best when we derail into wine and geology


You missed the detours onto whether importing drugs will get more expensive.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> English wine, Albury Vineyard is the same hill as Denbies, however as Albury's slopes face SSW and Denbies' E, Albury wines are far superior, especially their sparking wines which are finer than anything I have encountered anywhere else in the world.


I am very eager to try some. Albury do wild fermentation and stuff too, which is bonus points. No industrially-produced yeasts in there, homogenizing palates!


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

Albury wine is excellent but you’re paying the same price for a bottle as for a _really_ excellent new world equivalent.  The problem is scale.  English wines are produced in too tiny a quantity to compete in price.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

Not all of us want economies of scale, kabbes , you nefarious social climber and harbinger of automation


----------



## Raheem (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Australian wine is not shipped in bottles and as a result is more carbon efficient than French wine. It may not satisfy wine snobs, but if you are that snooty about wine, buy English.


I have a GCSE in maths, and I can tell you with some confidence that if one journey is, say, 2000% the distance of another, all else being equal, it is not going to be possible to make the longer journey more carbon efficient by reducing the weight of the cargo by a few percent.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I have a GCSE in maths, and I can tell you with some confidence that if one journey is, say, 2000% the distance of another, all else being equal, it is not going to be possible to make the longer journey more carbon efficient by reducing the weight of the cargo by a few percent.




Aussie wine arrives in 24,000ltr sacks, that's the equivalent of 32,000 glass bottles. More than a few percent...


----------



## Raheem (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Aussie wine arrives in 24,000ltr sacks, that's the equivalent of 32,000 glass bottles. More than a few percent...


Whatever size the sacks are, the % weight of a bottle per 75cl of wine won't change. You can undoubtedly save a lot of carbon by shipping without bottles, but you can't possibly offset the additional carbon involved in shipping the wine twenty times the distance. Have a sit down with a paper and pencil, and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## two sheds (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Aussie wine arrives in 24,000ltr sacks, that's the equivalent of 32,000 glass bottles. More than a few percent...


Where can I order from?


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Whatever size the sacks are, the % weight of a bottle per 75cl of wine won't change. You can undoubtedly save a lot of carbon by shipping without bottles, but you can't possibly offset the additional carbon involved in shipping the wine twenty times the distance. Have a sit down with a paper and pencil, and you'll see what I mean.


Again, how can any rational person be applauding the increased pollution and fossil fuel consumption that this shitty deal with Australia introduces? 

At a time when we're rightly being encouraged to grow/shop/consume locally, pursuing deals that will result in far more goods being transported half way across the world is sheer madness and stupidity.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

French wine can go and duck off bar Chablis.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Not all of us want economies of scale, kabbes , you nefarious social climber and harbinger of automation


Well indeed, I’m with you — it’s why I tend to buy local produce where available (wine and otherwise).  I’m just saying that English wine is never going to be a product for mass consumption, not because of quality but because it will never represent what, in the parlance of our times, I might call “the value proposition”.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Again, how can any rational person be applauding the increased pollution and fossil fuel consumption that this shitty deal with Australia introduces?
> 
> At a time when we're rightly being encouraged to grow/shop/consume locally, pursuing deals that will result in far more goods being transported half way across the world is sheer madness and stupidity.


The same logic also applies to choosing Italian and Spanish food over English versions, you know.  (And generally providing services over borders — food and drink is not unique in this regard).

And the counter argument is that by the time you have factored in every element of the production cost in energy terms, it might actually be more efficient to ship it longer distances if that is countered by reduced factors of production.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Again, how can any rational person be applauding the increased pollution and fossil fuel consumption that this shitty deal with Australia introduces?
> 
> At a time when we're rightly being encouraged to grow/shop/consume locally, pursuing deals that will result in far more goods being transported half way across the world is sheer madness and stupidity.


Did any of you remainer types boycott Aussie wine before brexit?


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> French wine can go and duck off bar Chablis.


Think new world wine is going to be one of the big winners on Brexit.  Saw Oz Clarke on telly a few years back (can't find it on youtube) about how back in the day the Aussies asked him what he was looking for in a wine and literally when off a made it which he found very different to the way EUropean wine makers carry on.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Think new world wine is going to be one of the big winners on Brexit.  Saw Oz Clarke on telly a few years back (can't find it on youtube) about how back in the day the Aussies asked him what he was looking for in a wine and literally when off a made it which he found very different to the way EUropean wine makers carry on.


We have so much choice now. Plus we don’t have to tariff US wine anymore over the EU and Boeing etc. 

We should still put 200 percent on Harleys though.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did any of you remainer types boycott Aussie wine before brexit?


Way to miss the point. Brexit aims to replace large amounts of trade with our nearest, rail connected neighbours and replace them with goods ferried half way across the world. Do you think that's a good thing or not?


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The same logic also applies to choosing Italian and Spanish food over English versions, you know.  (And generally providing services over borders — food and drink is not unique in this regard).


Except the environmental costs of transporting goods across Europe to the UK are absolutely tiny compared to shipping/flying in goods from Australia.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> And the counter argument is that by the time you have factored in every element of the production cost in energy terms, it might actually be more efficient to ship it longer distances if that is countered by reduced factors of production.



Could I see your workings that conclude that it's more 'efficient' to being in regular foods from Australia than, say, France or Spain?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Way to miss the point. Brexit aims to replace large amounts of trade with our nearest, rail connected neighbours and replace them with goods ferried half way across the world. Do you think that's a good thing or not?


Yawn. So were you a drinker of Aussie wine? I will comfortably assume so given your politician style refusal to answer.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Again, how can any rational person be applauding the increased pollution and fossil fuel consumption that this shitty deal with Australia introduces?
> 
> At a time when we're rightly being encouraged to grow/shop/consume locally, pursuing deals that will result in far more goods being transported half way across the world is sheer madness and stupidity.


Except we got loads off ships coming in from the pacific anyway and sending them back empty (now waste export activities have been frowned on) is pretty environmentally impactful, then you've got economies of scale impacts  (swings and roundabouts there too).


The folly is doing all this so quickly


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

gosub said:


> Except we got loads off ships coming in from the pacific anyway and sending them back empty (now waste export activities have been frowned on) is pretty environmentally impactful, then you've got economies of scale impacts  (swings and roundabouts there too).
> 
> 
> The folly is doing all this so quickly


And that's your argument?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Could I see your workings that conclude that it's more 'efficient' to being in regular foods from Australia than, say, France or Spain?


Well, one way or other, it’s cheaper.  So either it’s more efficient or there are some externalities falling disproportionately on one side.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Yawn. So were you a drinker of Aussie wine? I will comfortably assume so given your politician style refusal to answer.



I don't think I've ever, ever drunk Aussie wine in my entire life, so what you thought was a _Paxmanesque killer blow_ was in fact empty floundering.

I do drink Fosters lager though. I ignore the haters and the snobs.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Except the environmental costs of transporting goods across Europe to the UK are absolutely tiny compared to shipping/flying in goods from Australia.


In your own words, can I see your workings on that?


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

This should be interesting.


----------



## klang (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did any of you remainer types boycott Aussie wine before brexit?


Brexit or not, I've always avoided Aussie wines. Also Cali, Chile etc etc. Importing and drinking them seems absurd to me.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> This should be interesting.


I’m curious, I have to say. It could turn out that the industry calculating logistical efficiencies are all wrong and they should just ask editor for his common sense instead.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> In your own words, can I see your workings on that?


Sure:


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> I do (some several centimetres northwards per year, with a slight rotational component).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What I come to Urban for.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> English wine, Albury Vineyard is the same hill as Denbies, however as Albury's slopes face SSW and Denbies' E, Albury wines are far superior, especially their sparking wines which are finer than anything I have encountered anywhere else in the world.


That's more like it; proper Brexiteer talk. Enough of that Aussie swill; I'm backing Britain.
Brucie would be proud.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Sure:
> 
> View attachment 273767


I see.  So environmental efficiency of production, volume able to be transported at once, mode of transportation and loading efficiencies are all irrelevant to the calculation?  All that matters is distance?  It’s better to transport ten loads of one item for one mile than one load of ten items for five miles, for example?


----------



## klang (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It’s better to transport ten loads of one item for one mile than one load of ten items for five miles, for example?


doesn't really matter as long as it's proper heavy


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I don't think I've ever, ever drunk Aussie wine in my entire life, so what you thought was a _Paxmanesque killer blow_ was in fact empty floundering.
> 
> I do drink Fosters lager though. I ignore the haters and the snobs.


Used to like Fosters when the cans were imported but the stuff brewed in the U.K.  is tepid I’m afraid .


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I see.  So environmental efficiency of production, volume able to be transported at once, mode of transportation and loading efficiencies are all irrelevant to the calculation?  All that matters is distance?  It’s better to transport ten loads of one item for one mile than one load of ten items for five miles, for example?


Distance clearly plays a huge factor, especially if the goods are being transported by air, and when there are no rail/overland alternatives available.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Used to like Fosters when the cans were imported but the stuff brewed in the U.K.  is tepid I’m afraid .


I think I've only started drinking it since it was made in the UK (and thus cheaper). I quite like it for what it is.


----------



## Flavour (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I do drink Fosters lager though. I ignore the haters and the snobs.



Which was, at least throughout my childhood and adolescence, made in Moss Side, where I lived. Could smell the malt in the air on Princess Parkway some days. Good times.


----------



## gosub (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> And that's your argument?


No.  My argument is Oi Bruce, them Chinese nutters now seem to think COLD war is a bad thing, but no worries, still got your back.  Not like them EUropeans with their foreign policy must be unanimous malarky


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Distance clearly plays a huge factor, especially if the goods are being transported by air, and when there are no rail/overland alternatives available.


But you made a statement.  I was saying that the equation is complicated and it could go either way.  You told me this was unequivocally wrong and it is definitely always better for the environment to import from the EU (regardless of where in the EU, I note).  I asked you why this was and you posted a map saying “far away”. 

So which is it?  Is it a complex equation with many factors to take into account or is that irrelevant because it is definitely always better to import from anywhere you like in the EU, just based on distance alone?


----------



## Raheem (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> And the counter argument is that by the time you have factored in every element of the production cost in energy terms, it might actually be more efficient to ship it longer distances if that is countered by reduced factors of production.


It might be, but the question to ask is whether it is.

In the case of Australia, it is going to be a challenge - an impossibility, probably -to find anything to which this is going to apply, because the difference in the energy cost of transportation to the UK is very large whatever you are exporting.

Analogy: It is very often quicker to walk to the shops than to drive, because of traffic, the time it takes to park etc. But that is never going to apply if the shops are 40 miles away.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> It might be, but the question to ask is whether it is.
> 
> In the case of Australia, it is going to be a challenge - an impossibility, probably -to find anything to which this is going to apply, because the difference in the energy cost of transportation to the UK is very large whatever you are exporting.
> 
> Analogy: It is very often quicker to walk to the shops than to drive, because of traffic, the time it takes to park etc. But that is never going to apply if the shops are 40 miles away.


Yes, I don’t know which is actually the environmentally better option.  No idea, because it’s complicated.  The fact that wine is transported from Australia in sacks rather than glass bottles, can be shipped on the ocean and can make the return journey in ships that would otherwise be empty are all factors in its favour though.  Contrast wine from, eg, Bulgaria transported in glass bottles in small batches on the road.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I don't think I've ever, ever drunk Aussie wine in my entire life, so what you thought was a _Paxmanesque killer blow_ was in fact empty floundering.
> 
> I do drink Fosters lager though. I ignore the haters and the snobs.


Fair enough. I believe you don’t drink Aussie wine. 
I have to disagree regarding Fosters lager though. I just have never liked low strength brewed in the uk under licence lager.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Distance clearly plays a huge factor, especially if the goods are being transported by air, and when there are no rail/overland alternatives available.


By air, ok. Shipping is a bit different, though (setting aside all the other problems with shipping - deafening whales etc). 

But it's not the only factor, and it can still make sense, energy-wise, for production to be specialised in particular areas that then export to one another. This stuff isn't always straightforward.


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Fair enough. I believe you don’t drink Aussie wine.



I don't drink ANY wine, mate.

*minesweeps at end of beer-starved late party excepted


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> But you made a statement.  I was saying that the equation is complicated and it could go either way.  You told me this was unequivocally wrong and it is definitely always better for the environment to import from the EU (regardless of where in the EU, I note).  I asked you why this was and you posted a map saying “far away”.
> 
> So which is it?  Is it a complex equation with many factors to take into account or is that irrelevant because it is definitely always better to import from anywhere you like in the EU, just based on distance alone?


I refer you to post #9,902

Clearly there might be a small number of specialist exceptions but as a generality, it's almost always better to buy goods produced locally where possible, and if not, import those goods from nearby countries with direct rail links, rather than encouraging trade from countries some 10,000 miles away.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 16, 2021)

Is Australia the only country that excports kangarood meat? There was a trend for all this low fat meat about fifteen years ago kangaroo, ostrich, venison, reindeer wasnt there?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Is Australia the only country that excports kangarood meat? There was a trend for all this low fat meat about fifteen years ago kangaroo, ostrich, venison, reindeer wasnt there?


It was a fad. Dry steaks with little fat.


----------



## 2hats (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Yes, I don’t know which is actually the environmentally better option.  No idea, because it’s complicated.  The fact that wine is transported from Australia in sacks rather than glass bottles, can be shipped on the ocean and can make the return journey in ships that would otherwise be empty are all factors in its favour though.  Contrast wine from, eg, Bulgaria transported in glass bottles in small batches on the road.


Indeed it can be complex, but I'm fairly certain that Australian wine can't be shipped on the ocean from the vineyards it originates from.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> Indeed it can be complex, but I'm fairly certain that Australian wine can't be shipped on the ocean from the vineyards it originates from.


Explain?


----------



## 2hats (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Explain?


Try looking at a map.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

2hats said:


> Try looking at a map.


Oh sorry you are so clever.


----------



## Supine (Jun 16, 2021)

A big part of shipping wine in bulk is related to tax and finishing the manufacturing process in the destination country. Not just for environmental reasons.

Food is the bigger issue as Australian farms have economy of scale and our farmers simply cannot compete on cost because of it. You need to be a pretty hardcore brexiteer to see the good in this deal.


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I refer you to post #9,902
> 
> Clearly there might be a small number of specialist exceptions but as a generality, it's almost always better to buy goods produced locally where possible, and if not, import those goods from nearby countries with direct rail links, rather than encouraging trade from countries some 10,000 miles away.


You think that post 9902 is proof of your unequivocal statement that distance is all that matters?


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

Here's the impact of importing Australian (and NZ)  wine. 



> The results show that viticulture is the main hot spot in the life cycle of wine, contributing on average 41% to the impacts; this is mainly due to the life cycles of pesticides, fertilisers and fuels. *Transport is the next largest contributor adding on average 32% to the impacts, largely from the shipping of wine to the UK from Australia. For instance, shipping generates around 0.33 kg CO2 eq. per bottle of wine. *The impacts of packaging are also significant, contributing on average 24%, mainly owing to the production of glass bottles
> 
> 
> 
> ...





> Over the course of a year, the UK imports 220 million litres of wine from Australia alone – producing 96 thousand tonnes of CO2 emissions. This is roughly equivalent to heating 35 thousand UK homes for a year. Importing wines from New Zealand adds an extra 19 thousand tonnes of CO2 to that total. It becomes even more astonishing when considering the import impact of wines from South Africa, South America and the USA.
> 
> *Although the UK imports three times as much wine from France and Italy than it does from New Zealand, shipping wine from the New World still generates far more CO2 than buying from countries closer to home.*
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You think that post 9902 is proof of your unequivocal statement that distance is all that matters?


Please read the post above, carefully focussing on this conclusion: 

"Although the UK imports three times as much wine from France and Italy than it does from New Zealand, shipping wine from the New World still generates far more CO2 than buying from countries closer to home."


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's the impact of importing Australian (and NZ)  wine.


You realise that shows the opposite of your statement that it is just a matter of distance, right?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

editor said:


> Please read the post above, carefully focussing on this conclusion:
> 
> "Although the UK imports three times as much wine from France and Italy than it does from New Zealand, shipping wine from the New World still generates far more CO2 than buying from countries closer to home."


Do you think this is about me stating that it’s better to ship from Australia than France?

 Besides, that still leaves out of the equation what would be happening to the ships in the counterfactual in which the wine wasn’t taking the space.  Would they be simply returning empty?  It’s marginal cost that matters, not absolute cost.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2021)

precisely 2 weeks to go before hundreds of thousands of people are going to find themselves deportable, unable to work, rent, access healthcare etc


----------



## editor (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Do you think this is about me stating that it’s better to ship from Australia than France?
> 
> Besides, that still leaves out of the equation what would be happening to the ships in the counterfactual in which the wine wasn’t taking the space.  Would they be simply returning empty?  It’s marginal cost that matters, not absolute cost.


This 'returning empty' argument really is the worst. If the stuff isn't being exported in greater numbers, there'd be no extra ships there in the first place. And you agree what we should be reducing the distance that food and drink is being transported, especially when there's equally good  goods almost on our doorstep?


----------



## kabbes (Jun 16, 2021)

Hang on  a minute.  That article is totally misleading.  It says

“Although the UK imports three times as much wine from France and Italy than it does from New Zealand, shipping wine from the New World still generates far more CO2 than buying from countries closer to home."

But it also says

“Over the course of a year, the UK imports 220 million litres of wine from Australia alone – producing 96 thousand tonnes of CO2 emissions. … Importing wines from New Zealand adds an extra 19 thousand tonnes of CO2 to that total.”

The second statement means that we import about 5 times as much wine from Australia than from New Zealand.  That means the first statement — saying French and Italian imports only comprise three times the NZ import — says nothing at all about New World vs French and Italian impact!

It’s a clever piece of misdirection designed to make you think something is true despite not actually saying it.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Yes, I don’t know which is actually the environmentally better option.  No idea, because it’s complicated.  The fact that wine is transported from Australia in sacks rather than glass bottles, can be shipped on the ocean and can make the return journey in ships that would otherwise be empty are all factors in its favour though.  Contrast wine from, eg, Bulgaria transported in glass bottles in small batches on the road.


You're asking to use an imaginary scenario as a comparator, though. Bulgarian wine comes to the UK by sea (normally), because it is much cheaper. Australian wine will typically spend more time on the road before it leaves the country.

(Also, if the wine makes the return journey, that's very inefficient.)


----------



## TopCat (Jun 16, 2021)

ska invita said:


> precisely 2 weeks to go before hundreds of thousands of people are going to find themselves deportable, unable to work, rent, access healthcare etc


Please do update us with figures of how many were actually impacted.


----------



## Spymaster (Jun 16, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Hang on  a minute.  That article is totally misleading.  It says
> 
> “Although the UK imports three times as much wine from France and Italy than it does from New Zealand, shipping wine from the New World still generates far more CO2 than buying from countries closer to home."
> 
> ...



Ooh. So it does.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Please do update us with figures of how many were actually impacted.


will do
some stats for now
13,000 brits in france havent done their paperwork
Approx. 300,000+ in UK have applied but wont have legal status in time
employers, landlords, nhs, will be breaking the law if they dont refuse their services from 1st july, with large fines in place

this is what one deportation can look like


----------



## MrSki (Jun 16, 2021)

TopCat said:


> It was a fad. Dry steaks with little fat.


Tastes a bit like chicken...


----------



## Maltin (Jun 17, 2021)

Looks like we are going to have to eat more langoustines, mackerel and Australian meat.









						Meat sector warns of Brexit production squeeze
					

UK faces shortage of home-reared chickens as EU workers stay away, says trade group.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## ska invita (Jun 17, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Looks like we are going to have to eat more langoustines, mackerel and Australian meat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"But migrants have been returning to their home countries due to Brexit effects including a weaker pound, a trend exacerbated by the coronavirus crisis, the British Poultry Council (BPC) said. Once they get home, many decide not to return."

_Decide not to return_? Its illegal for them to work here now.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 17, 2021)

Intersting article on the RTP website in Portugal ( probably extracted from some UK media )




> *The findings show a clear downward trend in job search in the UK among citizens of the 27 Member States.*While interest in jobs in the UK declined across the board in 2020 due to the Covid-19 pandemic, the platform concludes that surveys by non-EU citizens have since recovered to pre-pandemic levels, in reverse. interest of EU citizens.
> According to numbers from _Indeed_ , *job searches in the UK by EU applicants were down 36 percent in May from 2019 average levels and 45 percent since 2016, the year of the referendum. If we look at the demand for low-paying jobs such as hotels, healthcare and warehouses – the most affected by post-Brexit immigration rules – the drop is even greater, dropping to 41 percent.
> 
> For high-paying jobs in technology, finance, medicine, engineering, the Indeed platform estimates that low demand from EU residents can be offset by interest from non-EU citizens*
> ...


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Intersting article on the RTP website in Portugal ( probably extracted from some UK media )


That economist suggesting at the end of you quote that higher wages might be necessary to attract UK workers to particular roles is obviously crazy. Next he'll be suggesting that UK employers might have to train their own employees rather than getting them ready trained from other countries.

No surprise to see the original quote is from the Guardian...


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 18, 2021)

It might even result in greater personal dignity and less reliance on food banks. Crazy days.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It might even result in greater personal dignity and less reliance on food banks. Crazy days.


Ah, I think I can see where you're coming from. And you've got blond hairs all over yourself...


----------



## ska invita (Jun 18, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Intersting article on the RTP website in Portugal ( probably extracted from some UK media )


correct me if Im wrong please
why would anyone from the EU be looking at these job ads at all - its illegal  for them to work here now isnt it? and no doubt the jobs too low paying to be able to get a work visa - threshold is around £26k pa IIRC


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> correct me if Im wrong please
> why would anyone from the EU be looking at these job ads at all - its illegal  for them to work here now isnt it? and no doubt the jobs too low paying to be able to get a work visa - threshold is around £26k pa IIRC


You've made this claim about it being illegal for anyone from the EU to work here in the UK a few times recently.

Could you please either post something to substantiate it or admit that you've made a mistake and retract it.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> You've made this claim about it being illegal for anyone from the EU to work here in the UK a few times recently.
> 
> Could you please either post something to substantiate it or admit that you've made a mistake and retract it.


Read the post again, it's not a claim its a request for clarification from someone who knows the rules


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Read the post again, it's not a claim its a request for clarification from someone who knows the rules



30 seconds on Google tells you there are diff kinds of worker visas. Temp worker = under 12-months, etc.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Read the post again, it's not a claim its a request for clarification from someone who knows the rules


It is a claim only it's a claim with a please tell me if I'm wrong attached. A request for clarification looks like here's something I'd like clarification on, rather different. And as Loose meat points out, a moment on Google shows you're talking out of your fundament.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 18, 2021)

Googled.  .gov.uk website says minimum earnings to get visa must be 25600£ pa


----------



## ska invita (Jun 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It is a claim only it's a claim with a please tell me if I'm wrong attached. A request for clarification looks like here's something I'd like clarification on, rather different. And as Loose meat points out, a moment on Google shows you're talking out of your fundament.


To a pedant I can see how confusing life must be


----------



## Ax^ (Jun 18, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It might even result in greater personal dignity and less reliance on food banks. Crazy days.



send em all down the mines


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Googled.  .gov.uk website says minimum earnings to get visa must be 25600£ pa



You just wrote its "illegal".  Google still available. 25.600 euros is about £22, 500 - min wage comes out at just under £19K now.


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Read the post again, it's not a claim its a request for clarification from someone who knows the rules


It's not just that one post (which could be interpreted as a request for info but could just as easily be a statement couched in the form of a question) it's a whole series of similar posts you seem to have made recently.

So let's be clear - it is not illegal for EU citizens to work in the UK.

What has happened is that various administrative procedures have changed, which has certainly caused serious problems in some cases, but by suggesting what you have repeatedly suggested you do your argument no favours, TBH


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Googled.  .gov.uk website says minimum earnings to get visa must be 25600£ pa


Is this to start a new job or continue in an existing one?


----------



## Loose meat (Jun 18, 2021)

.....


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> To a pedant I can see how confusing life must be


What's confusing is why you posted this drivel. I look forward to the next time you whine about ad homs reminding you how happy you are to dish it out and how reluctant you are to take it


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> That economist suggesting at the end of you quote that higher wages might be necessary to attract UK workers to particular roles is obviously crazy. Next he'll be suggesting that UK employers might have to train their own employees rather than getting them ready trained from other countries.
> 
> No surprise to see the original quote is from the Guardian...


It’s the job of workers to train themselves these days, and pay for it, hence university fees and internships. Gone are the days when people like my dad did about a decade of day release and night school, paid for by the company. Fuck it, you’re on your own now. Neoliberalism says you have to ‘invest in yourself’, if you have the capital.


----------



## existentialist (Jun 18, 2021)

Dogsauce said:


> It’s the job of workers to train themselves these days, and pay for it, hence university fees and internships. Gone are the days when people like my dad did about a decade of day release and night school, paid for by the company. Fuck it, you’re on your own now. Neoliberalism says you have to ‘invest in yourself’, if you have the capital.


Or someone will lend it to you, and you get to spend the first decades of your working life in hock.


----------



## TopCat (Jun 18, 2021)

existentialist said:


> Or someone will lend it to you, and you get to spend the first decades of your working life in hock.


Or worse, living a teenagers life into your forties, no ambition as it triggers loan repayments.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2021)

Some evidence of the trading impacts of the post-Brexit arrangements:


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Some evidence of the trading impacts of the post-Brexit arrangements:



If there any attempt there to separate out the effects from Brexit with those from COVID?

If the fall in sales was similar across EU and non-EU states, that would suggest to me it was mostly the result of COVID, but it there was a significant difference, then that difference would presumably give us some idea of how much was the result of Brexit.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> If there any attempt there to separate out the effects from Brexit with those from COVID?
> 
> If the fall in sales was similar across EU and non-EU states, that would suggest to me it was mostly the result of COVID, but it there was a significant difference, then that difference would presumably give us some idea of how much was the result of Brexit.


Can't speak to the methodology of the number crunching, but this was the follow-up tweet from the BBC:


----------



## Raheem (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> If there any attempt there to separate out the effects from Brexit with those from COVID?
> 
> If the fall in sales was similar across EU and non-EU states, that would suggest to me it was mostly the result of COVID, but it there was a significant difference, then that difference would presumably give us some idea of how much was the result of Brexit.


You can see from the graphic that the fall was exclusively / almost exclusively related to EU states.


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Can't speak to the methodology of the number crunching, but this was the follow-up tweet from the BBC:



Yeah, it certainly looks from the original graphic that the EU figures have fallen more than the non-EU ones, but it's not clear to me how much, or how significant that is.

If we're interested in overall import/export balances*, we also need to factor in reductions in imports from the EU.

*this isn't the only thing we should be interested in, but it is a significant part of the overall picture.


----------



## Cerv (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> If there any attempt there to separate out the effects from Brexit with those from COVID?
> 
> If the fall in sales was similar across EU and non-EU states, that would suggest to me it was mostly the result of COVID, but it there was a significant difference, then that difference would presumably give us some idea of how much was the result of Brexit.


the graph is labelled in blue and red for the EU and non-EU bars in the stack.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Yeah, it certainly looks from the original graphic that the EU figures have fallen more than the non-EU ones, but it's not clear to me how much, or how significant that is.
> 
> If we're interested in overall import/export balances*, we also need to factor in reductions in imports from the EU.
> 
> *this isn't the only thing we should be interested in, but it is a significant part of the overall picture.


tbf, it looks pretty clear to me.


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

Cerv said:


> the graph is labelled in blue and red for the EU and non-EU bars in the stack.


Thanks. I can see that, but on my little screen I can't get that great an idea of the relative size of the changes.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Thanks. I can see that, but on my little screen I can't get that great an idea of the relative size of the changes.


Does this help?


----------



## andysays (Jun 18, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Does this help?
> 
> View attachment 274132


I think that's pretty clear that it's Brexit not COVID.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 19, 2021)

Food and drink exports of course never go to hospitality environments that have been closed for the first half of this year...


----------



## brogdale (Jun 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Food and drink exports of course never go to hospitality environments that have been closed for the first half of this year...


Yep, that's explicitly accepted in the source article explaining that both Brexit & Covid have impacted adversely on the numbers. What's not so easy for Brexit fans to explain away is the marked difference between the EU & non-EU data, given that the pandemic and its impacts have been global.


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yep, that's explicitly accepted in the source article explaining that both Brexit & Covid have impacted adversely on the numbers. What's not so easy for Brexit fans to explain away is the marked difference between the EU & non-EU data, given that the pandemic and its impacts have been global.


I'm trying to find some sort of equivalent figures to see how food imported into the UK from the EU has changed in a similar period, but most of the focus appears to be on how exports are down.

The best I can come up with so far is this from Dec 2020

How dependent is the UK on the EU for food?​This seems to ignore the financial cost of imports, and focus instead on the possibility of food shortages, so if anyone has any figures relating to the change in value of EU food imports to the UK, I'd be interested in seeing them.

Again, balance of payments isn't the only thing we should look at, but if it turns out that imports have gone down in value by a similar amount to exports, that would help put the fall in export figures into some sort of context.


----------



## gosub (Jun 19, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm trying to find some sort of equivalent figures to see how food imported into the UK from the EU has changed in a similar period, but most of the focus appears to be on how exports are down.
> 
> The best I can come up with so far is this from Dec 2020
> 
> ...


I know when I looked into dairy, we ended up a net exporter off the back of a fall in imports


----------



## andysays (Jun 19, 2021)

gosub said:


> I know when I looked into dairy, we ended up a net exporter off the back of a fall in imports


Interesting, thanks


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2021)

Just in case the arts hasn't been fucked over enough because of Brexit:  EU prepares to cut amount of British TV and film shown post-Brexit | European Union | The Guardian


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

editor said:


> Just in case the arts hasn't been fucked over enough because of Brexit:  EU prepares to cut amount of British TV and film shown post-Brexit | European Union | The Guardian


Reading that article, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that these proposals are motivated by a combination of protectionism and spite on the part of whoever in the EU has come up with them.

They're also based on the questionable idea that "European" means "part of the EU".

But there may at least be some positive consequences for us in Britain if the proposals do go ahead



> Industry figures said a move to define UK content as something other than European, leading to a loss of market share, would particularly hit British drama, as the pre-sale of international rights to shows such as Downton Abbey and The Crown has often been the basis on which they have been able to go into production.


----------



## Elpenor (Jun 22, 2021)

Spiteful act of self-harm which will damage the subtitle and dubbing industries within the EU. Probably led by France who are protective other their language being corrupted by Anglophone influences


----------



## ska invita (Jun 22, 2021)

Grumpy contrarian  post incoming


andysays said:


> Reading that article, it's difficult to avoid the conclusion that these proposals are motivated by a combination of protectionism and spite.
> 
> They're also based on the questionable idea that "European" means "part of the EU".
> 
> But there may at least be some positive consequences for us in Britain if the proposals do go ahead


i took you to be pro-protectionism? 

personally anything that helps diminish the british period drama / top gear industry is welcome - anglophone media in general tbh - soft power is another word for propaganda really. 
according to this link analysts "crowned the UK as the world’s leading soft power in 2018"








						The UK’s soft power challenge | British Council
					

The UK’s soft power pre-eminence is vital for its post-Brexit future, but increasingly being challenged. Insight looks at the latest evidence.




					www.britishcouncil.org
				




again from the link the point of such power is for the UK to be seen "as open and welcoming, with a free and fair justice system and world-leading arts and culture, and with a government that treats everyone in the country fairly, contributes its fair share to aid, works constructively with others around the world." so painting rosy pictures over the much grimmer reality is basically the point of it

British TV, especially bbc output, is increasingly small c and big C conservative, un-innovative, twee, pap. The fact it sells so well is pretty depressing. The myth of it being stuff like Python (mentioned in that British Council link) is 40 years out of date

anyway i expect this story is being over-egged - as the article says at present the UK is still considered part of Europe, even if those dastardly french people take over the presidency next year. Will they ditch other European non-EU content too? 


Elpenor said:


> Spiteful act of self-harm which will damage the subtitle and dubbing industries within the EU. Probably led by France who are protective other their language being corrupted by Anglophone influences


other languages media shown in foreign countries still needs subtitling no?


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

Could have gone in polling thread, but hey ho...those of you with a dog in this fight can fill yer boots here:


----------



## Smangus (Jun 22, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Spiteful act of self-harm which will damage the subtitle and dubbing industries within the EU. Probably led by France who are protective other their language being corrupted by Anglophone influences


 Reclaiming nos TV, airwaves, le Netfix etc.....


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Grumpy contrarian  post incoming
> 
> i took you to be pro-protectionism?
> 
> ...


I'm certainly not pro protectionism in all circumstances. 

I just thought it was a little ironic that someone who was and continues to be pro remain and pro EU, would choose to highlight this proposal which doesn't really support the idea that absolutely *everything *is the fault of those stupid xenophobic anti-creative Brexit voters.


----------



## Raheem (Jun 22, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Spiteful act of self-harm which will damage the subtitle and dubbing industries within the EU. Probably led by France who are protective other their language being corrupted by Anglophone influences


Afaict, it's a story about someone in Brussels being asked to write a report about something the EU doesn't actually have powers to do anything about (because the relevant rules fall under the Council of Europe, which the UK is still a member of), and which would probably just end up hurting EU broadcasters if they did.


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Could have gone in polling thread, but hey ho...those of you with a dog in this fight can fill yer boots here:



So apart from right wingers, most people think it's been a fucking disaster.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

editor said:


> So apart from right wingers, most people think it's been a fucking disaster.


Not really "most", but of those expressing a response either way, it's 38% badly  : 25% well.

But with 38% meh or D/K it's quite difficult to make too much of the numbers.


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Not really "most", but of those expressing a response either way, it's 38% badly  : 25% well.
> 
> But with 38% meh or D/K it's quite difficult to make too much of the numbers.


Only a quarter of the public think it's gone well.
68% of Labour voters and 71% of LD voters think it's gone fairly badly or very badly.
Only 11% of Tories think it's gone really well.

Anyway - poll here The big urban poll: Do you think Brexit has gone well or badly?


----------



## TopCat (Jun 22, 2021)

editor said:


> So apart from right wingers, most people think it's been a fucking disaster.


No not most. You are extrapolating too hard and throwing shit like right wingers about. Try harder.


----------



## gosub (Jun 22, 2021)

Legal tiptoeing: the Integrated Review, Data-Sharing, and the EU »
					

Data sharing is critical to intelligence. But what does the UK's Integrated Review say about sharing data with the EU and what does it mean?




					wavellroom.com


----------



## editor (Jun 22, 2021)

TopCat said:


> No not most. You are extrapolating too hard and throwing shit like right wingers about. Try harder.


Oh, the denial. The only people who think it's gone 'really well' are Tories.

With only 25% of the public thinking it's gone well, it's quite correct to conclude that 'most' people don't think its gone well at all.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 22, 2021)

editor said:


> Only a quarter of the public think it's gone well.
> 68% of Labour voters and 71% of LD voters think it's gone fairly badly or very badly.
> Only 11% of Tories think it's gone really well.
> 
> Anyway - poll here The big urban poll: Do you think Brexit has gone well or badly?


Yes, but that "71% of LD voters" in the 2 'badly' categories equates very closely to the roughly 5% of the (GE 2019) electorate that are the Tory voters who think it's gone very well.


----------



## Poot (Jun 22, 2021)

What an odd question. Well compared to what? Which bits?


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

Poot said:


> What an odd question. Well compared to what? Which bits?


It is a slightly odd question. Lots of it appears to have gone quite badly, and a fair bit to have gone very badly indeed, though it's a little too early to know how things will work out in the long run.

But it's worth remembering that people voting that Brexit has gone badly in the last six months doesn't equate to people thinking that Brexit was a bad idea all round and they wish they'd never voted for it.


----------



## Poot (Jun 22, 2021)

andysays said:


> It is a slightly odd question. Lots of it appears to have gone quite badly, and a fair bit to have gone very badly indeed, though it's a little too early to know how things will work out in the long run.
> 
> But it's worth remembering that people voting that Brexit has gone badly in the last six months doesn't equate to people thinking that Brexit was a bad idea all round and they wish they'd never voted for it.


Yes. Or vice versa. Some of us are a little tickled that wages have gone up and we aren't treating Romanians like our slaves anymore. Especially because it probably pisses the Tories off. But on the other hand it depends what you thought Brexit was in the first place. And the bad stuff has been masked by Covid. So who knows whether it's 'gone well.'


----------



## Brainaddict (Jun 22, 2021)

Mixed so far. It's going to take a good ten years to settle isn't it, and even then the overall economic effects may be hard to tell. Some industries hit hard, others growing. Wages rising in some sectors, but that might be balanced out by loss of higher-paying jobs in other sectors (i.e. hospitality might pay more but if you only take that job because your higher-paying job in a hi-tech factory went then it won't seem like much of a victory). 

It also depends significantly on what the new trade deals look like, and they are unlikely to be positive for most people. Anyone who thinks the Tories who wanted Brexit wanted it because they wanted _more restrictive_ trade is in fantasy land. People who want to make it all about the victory of the working class forget that the ruling class was also quite split on this, and that was partly because some of them sniffed the possibility of trade deals that would benefit them more than EU trade deals. That process is going to be a while rolling out. There will be some resistance to shit trade deals but often people don't realise how bad they are until they get hit a couple of years down the line after the deal is done. I'm not optimistic that there will be much immediate resistance, though perhaps further down the line.


----------



## philosophical (Jun 22, 2021)

Nothing is going to settle down until the land border between the EU and the UK voted for by brexiters and fucking lexiters is sorted.
Settling down implies to me a peaceful co existence according to the international treaties.
No hope of that, but the notion that it will take a decade (or more?) to settle is straight out of the Rees Mogg ‘can down the road’ playbook.


----------



## andysays (Jun 22, 2021)

ska invita said:


> personally anything that helps diminish the british period drama / top gear industry is welcome - anglophone media in general tbh - soft power is another word for propaganda really.
> according to this link analysts "crowned the UK as the world’s leading soft power in 2018"
> 
> 
> ...


Just to come back to this, it does appear that the original article and the post linking to it are pretty much uncritical of the way in which the British film and TV industry has increasingly become a way for the projection of soft power, largely nostalgia for the days when the aristocracy was still in charge and the rest of us knew our place.

I wasn't sure if the British Council was still going - maybe struggling creatives could apply to them for financial assistance in projecting a bit more of that soft power around Europe and elsewhere.


----------



## brogdale (Jun 23, 2021)

5 years ago today  :


----------



## quiet guy (Jun 24, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jun 25, 2021)

UK facing summer of food shortages due to lack of lorry drivers
					

Loss of 100,000 hauliers due to Covid and Brexit will cause food ‘rolling power cuts’, experts warn




					www.theguardian.com
				




No mention that in the UK one has to pay oneself all the costs of becoming an HGV driver and when qualified being grateful to barely make minimum wage. 

They could of course pay drivers to train then pay enough to retain them but this would lessen profits so can’t happen.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jun 25, 2021)

TopCat said:


> UK facing summer of food shortages due to lack of lorry drivers
> 
> 
> Loss of 100,000 hauliers due to Covid and Brexit will cause food ‘rolling power cuts’, experts warn
> ...




The world was a much better place when truckers were Romanian and lived out of the back of their trailers for months on end, a workers' paradise that.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 25, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> View attachment 275152


Redwood is either the greatest or the worst troll to have ever lived.


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The world was a much better place when truckers were Romanian and lived out of the back of their trailers for months on end, a workers' paradise that.


Naturally you boycotted all the goods produced through this system, yes? Or is your sudden concern more ideologically based?

But look how Brexit has improved the lot of these workers. Oh no, wait...



> Fishing has long been known as a hard, oft-uncomfortable way to graft a living. Now fishers across the UK say their trade has been made even more difficult – by Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal.
> 
> On the fifth anniversary of the vote to leave the EU, many say their industry has been betrayed by an agreement that has effectively sacrificed one of the key promises of the Leave campaign – to keep European trawlers out of British waters – while simultaneously ending frictionless access to continental markets.
> 
> ...











						‘Stitched up and sold out’ - UK’s fishing crews outraged at Brexit betrayal five years after referendum
					

On the fifth anniversary of the vote to leave the EU, many in the fishing industry feel betrayed by a trade deal that effectively sacrificed one of the key promises of the Leave campaign




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2021)

No shit, Sherlock: 



> The deterioration in relations with the EU, partly driven by the Northern Ireland “sausage war”, has come as a surprise to those, who campaigned to leave the bloc five years ago, the government has admitted.
> 
> The Brexit minister, David Frost, said they had dreamed of a sovereign Britain, which could set forth on a global mission while maintaining friendly relations with its neighbours.
> 
> ...











						Leave campaigners ‘surprised’ by decay in relations with EU, says David Frost
					

Brexit minister says dispute over border checks in Northern Ireland main barrier to better relationship




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## editor (Jun 25, 2021)

And more from the amazeballs Australia trade deal









						Brexit not so sweet for UK’s sugar beet farmers
					

The National Farmers’ Union is ‘extremely concerned’ about a glut of sugar imports as a result of the UK-Australia trade deal.




					www.politico.eu


----------



## Dogsauce (Jun 25, 2021)

editor said:


> And more from the amazeballs Australia trade deal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, but the Queensland sugar farmers move their stuff around on little narrow gauge railways, which is all cool in my book, so more power to this deal. (U.K. rail-borne sugar traffic ended in the early 80s)


----------



## glitch hiker (Jun 25, 2021)

editor said:


> No shit, Sherlock:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The unelected Brexit minister who doesn't understand his own deal


----------



## quiet guy (Jun 25, 2021)

You'd think that they hadn't even read and understood what they signed up to


----------



## TopCat (Jun 27, 2021)

‘Our ministers are philistines’: Elton John outraged as Brexit hits musicians
					

Singer attacks Boris Johnson’s administration for having no grasp of huge income generated by British artists




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

quiet guy said:


> You'd think that they hadn't even read and understood what they signed up to



This is exactly what the left EU MPs said about the EU and the Astra Zeneca deal


----------



## andysays (Jun 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> ‘Our ministers are philistines’: Elton John outraged as Brexit hits musicians
> 
> 
> Singer attacks Boris Johnson’s administration for having no grasp of huge income generated by British artists
> ...


Someone really should start a thread...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 27, 2021)

andysays said:


> Someone really should start a thread...


Great guy apparently


----------



## brogdale (Jun 27, 2021)

TopCat said:


> ‘Our ministers are philistines’: Elton John outraged as Brexit hits musicians
> 
> 
> Singer attacks Boris Johnson’s administration for having no grasp of huge income generated by British artists
> ...


Enough of this anti-semitism


----------



## bimble (Jun 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> .. there’ll soon be a massive long list of exceptions (‘shortage occupations’, like fruit & veg picker is already a special case, others will join maybe including barrista, bar staff etc where employers will not have to meet these rules to get non Brit workers), or else jobs and incomes for British people will rise as businesses will find a way to adjust without migrant labour lowering wages.
> The last ones the hope isn’t it, i think the first two more likely.



and so it goes.  

"The CBI said ministers needed to act on advice from the government’s migration advisory committee published in September, which recommended that certain roles – including butchers, bricklayers and welders – be added to the UK’s shortage occupation list."..


----------



## andysays (Jun 29, 2021)

bimble said:


> and so it goes.
> 
> "The CBI said ministers needed to act on advice from the government’s migration advisory committee published in September, which recommended that certain roles – including butchers, bricklayers and welders – be added to the UK’s shortage occupation list."..


Interesting to see this idea buried in paragraph four



> employers needed to take greater responsibility to address labour shortages by investing in the skills of the domestic workforce, and by taking a chance on jobseekers who might otherwise be overlooked



The main reason we're seeing shortages in particular roles is because of employers' failure to invest in the skills of the domestic workforce (why train, when you can import ready trained workers from elsewhere), and although they're half heartedly acknowledged this, they're still trying to avoid take the necessary action to sort themselves out.

Given the dependency on pre-trained EU workers, and given that Brexit was always likely to affect their ability to recruit in this way, from a combination of restrictions on new workers entering and at least some of those already here leaving, they really should have done something to recruit and train from the existing domestic workforce* well in advance, rather than expecting the government to bring in special dispensations to suit them at the last minute.

*in which I include the estimated 5m EU workers who have been granted or applied for settled status - this is not just a "Jobs for Brits" thing


----------



## ska invita (Jun 29, 2021)

andysays said:


> I*in which I include the estimated 5m EU workers who have been granted or applied for settled status - this is not just a "Jobs for Brits" thing


just to add, those with settled status, precarious though it may be (particularly will have to wait and see just how shit pre-settled status is), are hopefully on the way to getting citizenship - they are essentially "Brits" already. Always were in my mind


----------



## andysays (Jun 29, 2021)

ska invita said:


> just to add, those with settled status, precarious though it may be (particularly will have to wait and see just how shit pre-settled status is), are hopefully on the way to getting citizenship - they are essentially "Brits" already. Always were in my mind


In my mind too, if they want to be. I was just emphasising that point to hopefully avoid being misrepresented as I have been recently on another thread.

And as I posted on that other thread, EU national colleagues I have spoken to don't report any of the problems with getting settled status than many here have claimed would occur, so I don't think your claim that settled status will necessarily turn out to be precarious is one which should be taken for granted at this stage.


----------



## ska invita (Jun 30, 2021)

new VAT rules kick in for trade within the EU tomorrow morning
Its so fucking complicated, and the government portal isn't even ready in time, nightmare

Here;s the effect on one sector, Discogs 














,
Great news! As new UK and EU supply of goods VAT regulations come into effect on July 1, Discogs will ensure buying and selling with the UK and EU remains viable by collecting supply of goods VAT on your behalf for orders placed on and after July 1st.
The following changes impact sellers worldwide who sell into the UK or EU, buyers located in the UK placing an order with a seller outside the UK, and buyers in the EU placing an order with a seller outside the EU.

*When and how is supply of goods VAT charged?*
There are two supply of goods VAT scenarios: 1) sales where Discogs is responsible for collecting VAT as a deemed supplier and 2) sales where sellers are responsible for collecting VAT. Discogs is responsible for VAT when goods are imported into either the EU or UK and the buyer is not VAT registered. Sellers are responsible for VAT when goods are sold within the EU or within the UK and the buyer is not VAT registered.
As the “deemed supplier”, Discogs will apply supply of goods VAT to all orders imported into the UK from outside the UK or into the EU from outside the EU. Supply of goods VAT will be applied at or under a certain low value goods threshold, as follows:

The UK low value goods threshold is £135
The EU low value goods threshold is €150

Supply of goods VAT is to be paid by the buyer as part of the total order cost. UK and EU VAT will be automatically calculated and added to the order total to be paid by the buyer. The supply of goods VAT amount will be added to your monthly Discogs sales fee invoice, and we will file the VAT returns and remit the VAT to the appropriate tax authority.
As a service to EU sellers who sell to buyers also located in the EU, and UK sellers who sell to buyers also located in the UK, Discogs will apply supply of goods VAT to all orders where the buyer is not VAT registered. We are providing this service to make sellers’ job of determining what is VAT taxable and what isn’t VAT taxable easier by supporting sellers’ requirements to collect and remit supply of goods VAT on intra-UK and intra-EU orders.

*A commercial invoice must accompany all cross border shipments*
Sellers will be required to attach a commercial invoice to the shipment for all cross-border sales.
If you are a seller who is outside the UK and EU, and are shipping an order to a buyer in either the UK or the EU, the commercial invoice includes harmonized tariff codes for each item to speed customs clearance — essentially, a seller declaration that the invoice accurately represents the shipment, and any VAT charges.
This allows customs authorities to determine whether VAT has been paid, if applicable. This can be printed from the order page. Simply click the “Print” button available in the top right section of your Order page.
For buyers, the order receipt has also been updated to include full VAT invoice requirements, including harmonized tariff (HS) codes for each item purchased.

*VAT exemptions with a valid VAT ID*
If you have a valid UK or EU VAT ID, please enter this into your Settings under Tax Information on Discogs. Providing your VAT ID will exempt you from VAT charges on Discogs whether you sell on Discogs or buy, even occasionally. If your VAT ID becomes invalid, we will notify you and request that a new, valid VAT ID be entered into your Seller Settings.
Add your VAT ID to your Settings »
For complete information on Discogs’ compliance efforts regarding new UK and EU VAT regulations and how they affect you, please see the latest blog post.
Sincerely,
Discogs

Great news lol. At least Discogs are trying to sort something out here, and seem to understand it and have some systems in place
Flurry of panicked emails going around some traders i know today...


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> Interesting to see this idea buried in paragraph four
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is an excellent point Andy


----------



## editor (Jun 30, 2021)

ska invita said:


> new VAT rules kick in for trade within the EU tomorrow morning
> Its so fucking complicated, and the government portal isn't even ready in time, nightmare
> 
> Here;s the effect on one sector, Discogs
> ...


It's a fucking mess, and it's ridiculous expecting small seller/buyers to have to try and work it out.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 1, 2021)

Yeah, fuck it.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 1, 2021)

editor said:


> It's a fucking mess, and it's ridiculous expecting small seller/buyers to have to try and work it out.


update on this
to avoid customers paying VAT at their end you have to register with a thing (IOSS), basically an offshore agency - cost £300 registration + £2000 annual fee
so yeah ANY sale into the EU, however small, will incur the receiver having to pay a VAT fee at their end on receiving envelope, unless you set that up
that includes anyone in NI buying from mainland UK


----------



## editor (Jul 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> update on this
> to avoid customers paying VAT at their end you have to register with a thing (IOSS), basically an offshore agency - cost £300 registration + £2000 annual fee
> so yeah ANY sale into the EU, however small, will incur the receiver having to pay a VAT fee at their end on receiving envelope, unless you set that up
> that includes anyone in NI buying from mainland UK


That is fucking ridiculous.  What a load of fucking shit Brexit is.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 1, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, fuck it.




This has been on the cards for ages. What it will mean is that the UK financial services sector will aggressively compete with the EU's.

Expect to he wholesale deregulation of UK financial reporting requirements.

This is what hardcore City Brexiteers wanted. There's going to be a proper scrap!


----------



## Dogsauce (Jul 2, 2021)

ska invita said:


> update on this
> to avoid customers paying VAT at their end you have to register with a thing (IOSS), basically an offshore agency - cost £300 registration + £2000 annual fee
> so yeah ANY sale into the EU, however small, will incur the receiver having to pay a VAT fee at their end on receiving envelope, unless you set that up
> that includes anyone in NI buying from mainland UK


When I’ve sold stuff on eBay in the past (old SW toys etc) a lot of it has been bought by Germans, Dutch etc., probably most of the higher end items. No bother at all. Can’t even be bothered trying to list stuff now until this gets sorted out. It’s the ‘small people’ getting fucked again.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 3, 2021)

I’d love to believe Brexit is working. But why are there so many weird shortages? | Zoe Williams
					

Haribo supplies are under threat. I’m already struggling to buy Um Bongo and seaweed salad. What does this tell us – except that I need to improve my diet, asks Guardian columnist Zoe Williams




					www.theguardian.com
				




Has anyone other than Zoe noticed empty shelves and shortages?


----------



## andysays (Jul 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’d love to believe Brexit is working. But why are there so many weird shortages? | Zoe Williams
> 
> 
> Haribo supplies are under threat. I’m already struggling to buy Um Bongo and seaweed salad. What does this tell us – except that I need to improve my diet, asks Guardian columnist Zoe Williams
> ...


TBH, I don't normally buy either Um Bongo or seaweed salad, so wouldn't notice any shortages of those particular items, which I'm sure must be simply devastating to those experiencing them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’d love to believe Brexit is working. But why are there so many weird shortages? | Zoe Williams
> 
> 
> Haribo supplies are under threat. I’m already struggling to buy Um Bongo and seaweed salad. What does this tell us – except that I need to improve my diet, asks Guardian columnist Zoe Williams
> ...


It's hard to tell at our local Sainsbury's which has been soviet for some years now


----------



## brogdale (Jul 3, 2021)

At least the ration-books will be blue!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’d love to believe Brexit is working. But why are there so many weird shortages? | Zoe Williams
> 
> 
> Haribo supplies are under threat. I’m already struggling to buy Um Bongo and seaweed salad. What does this tell us – except that I need to improve my diet, asks Guardian columnist Zoe Williams
> ...





TopCat said:


> Has anyone other than Zoe noticed empty shelves and shortages?


Just trying to make anybody who sees a downside of Brexit being posh and out of touch.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 3, 2021)

So the vote was for the UK to leave the EU.
And only posh people recognise that the land border in Ireland that separates the UK from the EU as being a problem, a downside?
Brexit as voted for is not happening, and whatever is actually happening is fucking up a lot of lives.
Still, Lexit eh?


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 3, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> It's hard to tell at our local Sainsbury's which has been soviet for some years now


No shortage of jars of blueberries then


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2021)

Brexit: fucking up small businesses and the environment like a pro: 



> A Scottish fisherman says it's "cheaper and quicker" to export his shellfish to Asia than it is to France under post-Brexit rules.
> 
> Because the UK is out of the single market, British fish exports to Europe are now subject to new customs and veterinary checks.
> 
> Jamie McMillan says this means three hours of paperwork every morning to get his shellfish to the EU. He told BBC Panorama he had turned to Asian markets to keep his business afloat and save his employees' jobs.











						Exporting my fish to China is easier than to France
					

A Scottish fisherman says post-Brexit rules means three hours worth of paperwork for each EU order.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2021)

Nearly one-third of British companies that trade with the EU have have now suffered a decline or loss of business; 17 per cent that previously did business with the bloc have halted it, for now or for good. Businesses are facing costs from rejigging operations and supply chains.



> The pandemic, which suppressed business and leisure traffic, masked the upheavals. A reawakening economy will make more apparent the government’s sacrifices of market access in pursuit of sovereignty. Brexit’s real impact, moreover, was always going to be longer-term. Early evidence supports economists’ consensus views: erecting barriers with the UK’s nearest and largest market — for which there is no comparable substitute — will harm growth over time.
> 
> Though businesses are adjusting, signs point to an inexorable decoupling. Increased frictions in EU trade, and the costs of shifting to more distant non-EU markets, are prompting many small companies, in particular, to turn inwards on the UK. Businesses overall will benefit less from economies of scale, lowering productivity growth







__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## TopCat (Jul 5, 2021)

Gridlock, empty shelves, medicine shortages, mass unemployment, civil strife. All of this was confidently predicted but hasn’t come to pass. 
Most people would think it’s all gone pretty smoothly.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 5, 2021)

There were empty shelves in Tesco this morning. I am short on Broccoli and Cauliflower.

I mean, I'd add a smiley but why ruin the fun?

Brexit's effects are incoming, many are continually being kicked into the long grass. We aren't implementing the protocol right now, just whining about it. There aren't border checks being carried out.

People will start to notice, particualrly when the government stops killing us through 5G  Corona mismanagement

Also best I heard: the big trade boat the Tories want to spaff nurses pay on will have to be put out to tender thanks to them. Which means the EU could build the boat we'll be sailing in to sign trade deals with them


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> There were empty shelves in Tesco this morning. I am short on Broccoli and Cauliflower.
> 
> I mean, I'd add a smiley but why ruin the fun?
> 
> ...


i don't think monday morning's the best time to go shopping. perhaps ask one of the staff members next time you pop in when they get vegetable deliveries and time your visit accordingly. or just go to a local independent who will be very happy for your trade.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think monday morning's the best time to go shopping. perhaps ask one of the staff members next time you pop in when they get vegetable deliveries and time your visit accordingly. or just go to a local independent who will be very happy for your trade.


It's never been an issue before. I go to Tesco because a) there are no local independents anymore and b) because those shops are hugely dearer (Coop). 

I'm not saying the shop was completely empty, I'm saying that food shortages are happening. This isn't a controversial claim


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It's never been an issue before. I go to Tesco because a) there are no local independents anymore and b) because those shops are hugely dearer (Coop).
> 
> I'm not saying the shop was completely empty, I'm saying that food shortages are happening. This isn't a controversial claim


i don't care if it's controversial or not, i want to know if it's true. and from the evidence of my own eyes if i can't get something in eg sainsburys they will have it down the way in marks and spencer or in the local market or one of the local independents.


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't care if it's controversial or not, i want to know if it's true. and from the evidence of my own eyes if i can't get something in eg sainsburys they will have it down the way in marks and spencer or in the local market or one of the local independents.


And they did have those products in stock in the other shop I mentioned, which may or may not speak to the claim. The problem for me, as I say, is that I can't afford their prices. 

I'm sure if, people facing food shortages, cast their net wide enough they might find somehwere that does have the products they want. But for many that's not going to be practical affordable or possible. It isn't for me and it doesn't speak to the veracity of the claim. I offered the evidence of my own eyes, nothing more.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> And they did have those products in stock in the other shop I mentioned, which may or may not speak to the claim. The problem for me, as I say, is that I can't afford their prices.
> 
> I'm sure if, people facing food shortages, cast their net wide enough they might find somehwere that does have the products they want. But for many that's not going to be practical affordable or possible. It isn't for me and it doesn't speak to the veracity of the claim. I offered the evidence of my own eyes, nothing more.


obviously not everything's in stock all the time but if you ask the people in tesco i bet they'd say, yes we'll have it for you soon. sainsbury's and tesco can be shocking in what they don't keep in stock, it's been that way for years tho and isn't anything new.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> obviously not everything's in stock all the time but if you ask the people in tesco i bet they'd say, yes we'll have it for you soon. sainsbury's and tesco can be shocking in what they don't keep in stock, it's been that way for years tho and isn't anything new.


Sainburys is one of the retail corporations saying that shortages will begin to occur:


----------



## andysays (Jul 5, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> It's never been an issue before. I go to Tesco because a) there are no local independents anymore and b) because those shops are hugely dearer (Coop).
> 
> I'm not saying the shop was completely empty, I'm saying that food shortages are happening. This isn't a controversial claim


It isn't (or shouldn't be) a controversial claim, but I think it needs a bit of unpicking before we can be sure it's simply down to Brexit.

There are other possible reasons why your local Tesco might not have broccoli and cauliflower available when you went in this morning.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Sainburys is one of the retail corporations saying that shortages will begin to occur:
> 
> View attachment 277015


no one will notice at our nearest one, they'll just think it's business as usual.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> It isn't (or shouldn't be) a controversial claim, but I think it needs a bit of unpicking before we can be sure it's simply down to Brexit.
> 
> There are other possible reasons why your local Tesco might not have broccoli and cauliflower available when you went in this morning.


Whilst correct, I think this is a little harsh; most of us have only our own limited experience to go on and if posters are experiencing shortages then information like that might inform our bigger picture, no?

FWIW, (& I'm well aware of the dangers of taking the words of interested parties at face value), capital is citing Brexit as one of the key factors behind the sector's supply side issues.



This does appear logical, tbh.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 5, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't care if it's controversial or not, i want to know if it's true. and from the evidence of my own eyes if i can't get something in eg sainsburys they will have it down the way in marks and spencer or in the local market or one of the local independents.


And yet, if I were to hear someone say they went all round town and finally found broccoli in Marks and Spencers, I wouldn't take that as evidence of no food shortages.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 5, 2021)

glitch hiker said:


> And they did have those products in stock in the other shop I mentioned, which may or may not speak to the claim. The problem for me, as I say, is that I can't afford their prices.
> 
> I'm sure if, people facing food shortages, cast their net wide enough they might find somehwere that does have the products they want. But for many that's not going to be practical affordable or possible. It isn't for me and it doesn't speak to the veracity of the claim. I offered the evidence of my own eyes, nothing more.


Lidl shelves are full as are the shelves in every other shop.


----------



## andysays (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Whilst correct, I think this is a little harsh; most of us have only our own limited experience to go on and if posters are experiencing shortages then information like that might inform our bigger picture, no?
> 
> FWIW, (& I'm well aware of the dangers of taking the words of interested parties at face value), capital is citing Brexit as one of the key factors behind the sector's supply side issues.
> 
> ...


TBH, I'm not surprised that the Chief Executive of the Road Haulage Association is blaming Brexit (and the restrictions imposed during the pandemic) for the shortages of drivers within his industry, or that he's calling on the government to make an immediate response, which means bending the rules so they can continue to import cheaper workers from overseas like they've been doing for many years.

But I am slightly surprised that you appear to be falling for his line, especially as we've seen (possibly on a parallel thread; I'm struggling to keep up) that the problems with shortages of drivers in the haulage industry, according to some of the workers themselves rather than the head of the bosses group, are long term issues mainly relating to pay and conditions and have been there far longer than either Brexit or Covid.


----------



## Smangus (Jul 5, 2021)

My corner shop has run out of cans of White Lightning, Brexit fuking sucks dude


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> It isn't (or shouldn't be) a controversial claim, but I think it needs a bit of unpicking before we can be sure it's simply down to Brexit.
> 
> There are other possible reasons why your local Tesco might not have broccoli and cauliflower available when you went in this morning.


Rise of local veganism probably


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I'm not surprised that the Chief Executive of the Road Haulage Association is blaming Brexit (and the restrictions imposed during the pandemic) for the shortages of drivers within his industry, or that he's calling on the government to make an immediate response, which means bending the rules so they can continue to import cheaper workers from overseas like they've been doing for many years.
> 
> But I am slightly surprised that you appear to be falling for his line, especially as we've seen (possibly on a parallel thread; I'm struggling to keep up) that the problems with shortages of drivers in the haulage industry, according to some of the workers themselves rather than the head of the bosses group, are long term issues mainly relating to pay and conditions and have been there far longer than either Brexit or Covid.


I don't think I'm falling for a particular line from capital; of course they want to see their supply side 'flexibility' returned. But just because they're rotten capitalist scum does not make the point invalid that Brexit appears to have worsened the longer-term trends of recruitment issues that you mention.

It's pretty obvious and logical, tbh and looks like just another one of those issues that the useless vermin never concerned themselves with.


----------



## andysays (Jul 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Lidl shelves are full as are the shelves in every other shop.


If people are witnessing shortages of goods in the shops they usually shop in, I don't think it's that great an argument to suggest they should go to different shops, or to say that your local shops aren't experiencing shortages.

Apart from anything else, many people genuinely don't have a range of reasonably priced shops to buy food in within reasonable travelling distance; they effectively have only one shop and if that shop is out of stock, that's the end of it.

But the question surely is *why* are these shortages occurring, and the answer appears to me to be far more complicated than them simply being an inevitable result of Brexit.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Gridlock, empty shelves, medicine shortages, mass unemployment, civil strife. All of this was confidently predicted but hasn’t come to pass.
> Most people would think it’s all gone pretty smoothly.


Anyone spotted these queues of sun tanned geriatic expats from the Costa del Sol that were going to be overwhelming our NHS


----------



## andysays (Jul 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Rise of local veganism probably


Shortage of local allotments


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> Shortage of local allotments


Love a bit of summer cabbage with black pepper and  butter


----------



## Raheem (Jul 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> But the question surely is *why* are these shortages occurring, and the answer appears to me to be far more complicated than them simply being an inevitable result of Brexit.


IMO it must be mainly Covid. Here are my workings out.

Assume that the problem is a shortage of domestic drivers. The number of EU drivers that left the country due to Brexit is said to amount to 2-3% of the national workforce. My guess is that this is enough to cause headaches but not shortages. It also seems a bit too coincidental if it is the case that shortages are happening now and are about to get worse, at the same time as rising Covid case numbers. Why would it take six months for this slight drop in the number of drivers to bite?

Alternatively, if shortages are down to EU suppliers not wanting to send produce to the UK, or to produce spoiling in transit due to delays, then that might be attributable to Brexit. But there doesn't seem to be evidence of those things happening.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

Raheem said:


> IMO it must be mainly Covid. Here are my workings out.
> 
> Assume that the problem is a shortage of domestic drivers. The number of EU drivers that left the country due to Brexit is said to amount to 2-3% of the national workforce. My guess is that this is enough to cause headaches but not shortages. It also seems a bit too coincidental if it is the case that shortages are happening now and are about to get worse, at the same time as rising Covid case numbers. Why would it take six months for this slight drop in the number of drivers to bite?
> 
> Alternatively, if shortages are down to EU suppliers not wanting to send produce to the UK, or to produce spoiling in transit due to delays, then that might be attributable to Brexit. But there doesn't seem to be evidence of those things happening.


I suspect that one of the factors here is occupational 'churn' with HGV drivers, or potential HGV drivers, finding alternative employment opportunities in the home delivery sector and opening up sectors.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2021)

brogdale said:


> I suspect that one of the factors here is occupational 'churn' with HGV drivers, or potential HGV drivers, finding alternative employment opportunities in the home delivery sector and opening up sectors.


There's a bit of a pay difference tbh


----------



## brogdale (Jul 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> There's a bit of a pay difference tbh


Agreed, but there are other, non-remuneration, issues that might well be in play.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 5, 2021)

Smangus said:


> My corner shop has run out of cans of White Lightning, Brexit fuking sucks dude


Tell me about it - you try buying scaffolding boards they're like golddust


----------



## editor (Jul 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Gridlock, empty shelves, medicine shortages, mass unemployment, civil strife. All of this was confidently predicted but hasn’t come to pass.
> Most people would think it’s all gone pretty smoothly.


Most people who don't give a flying fuck about the music and entertainment industry that is.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Gridlock, empty shelves, medicine shortages, mass unemployment, civil strife. All of this was confidently predicted but hasn’t come to pass.
> Most people would think it’s all gone pretty smoothly.


Those that have managed to convince themselves that anything sort of a zombie apocalypse is a success.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 5, 2021)

The vote was for the whole of the UK to leave the EU, which hasn’t happened.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 5, 2021)

I'm quite pleased about the shortage of HGV drivers, because there are too many lorries on the roads. It's a good time to switch stuff to rail. Tesco apparently is having fewer problems than other supermarkets because it already shifts some of its goods by rail.

My understanding is that it's partly due to an overall increase in demand for deliveries and delivery drivers, rather than a shortage of drivers caused by drivers disappearing.

A good time for road haulage drivers to demand better pay and conditions. One of the road haulage industry's advantages over rail is that it doesn't have a unionised workforce with relatively high pay.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 5, 2021)

ive often wondered what Alan Partridge think about Brexit...now we know








						Alan Partridge vs Malcolm Tucker: The Great Big Brexit Grudge Match - The Big Issue
					

Yes, Malcolm Tucker and Alan Partridge go head to head on Brexit. Churchill, Paul Hollywood, balloon animals... the HDP (heavy-duty politics) is all here!



					www.bigissue.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 6, 2021)

Thought provoking  piece on how work patterns in some industries changed with EU labour 





__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					t.co
				














__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The vote was for the whole of the UK to leave the EU, which hasn’t happened.


Well many regard NI as a mere aberration in the history of that great island of Ireland and have never accepted it is part of the UK


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The vote was for the whole of the UK to leave the EU, which hasn’t happened.


It has, you know.  A bit got special arrangements, but it’s still legally not a member of the EU.


----------



## editor (Jul 6, 2021)

Another great win for Brexit 









						Out! How Brexit sent one UK tennis kit firm to Romania
					

A company specialising in children’s sports clothing has relocated to avoid the costs and bureaucracy caused by leaving the EU




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## gosub (Jul 6, 2021)

editor said:


> Another great win for Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


"expanding a business with worldwide markets to its full potential from the UK these days can mean extra barriers because of Brexit, delays to shipping, and far higher costs to customers. "

How does that work? As far as I can tell trading with non EU rest of the world hasn't changed, whats changed is wanting to trade with EU now has the additional bureaucracy that those trading globally would already be familiar with


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> It has, you know.  A bit got special arrangements, but it’s still legally not a member of the EU.



I said what the vote was for.
No special arrangements were mentioned on the ballot paper.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

editor said:


> Another great win for Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


if only wimbledon would move abroad.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well many regard NI as a mere aberration in the history of that great island of Ireland and have never accepted it is part of the UK


Yet many decided to vote for something that damages Ireland.
Probably because those voters are cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yet many decided to vote for something that damages Ireland.
> Probably because those voters are cunts.


do you think it's as damaging to ireland as successive governments in dublin have been, including the current grand alliance between fianna fail and fine gael?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> "expanding a business with worldwide markets to its full potential from the UK these days can mean extra barriers because of Brexit, delays to shipping, and far higher costs to customers. "
> 
> How does that work? As far as I can tell trading with non EU rest of the world hasn't changed, whats changed is wanting to trade with EU now has the additional bureaucracy that those trading globally would already be familiar with




Curious that out of the 27 EU nations they chose to set up shop in the one with the lowest staff wage rates, must be a coincidence.


----------



## gosub (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> if only wimbledon would move abroad.


Supporters were pretty pissed off when they moved to Milton Keynes


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

gosub said:


> Supporters were pretty pissed off when they moved to Milton Keynes


i was thinking more of the all england lawn tennis and croquet club


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I said what the vote was for.
> No special arrangements were mentioned on the ballot paper.


Lots of things weren’t mentioned in the ballot paper, but the fact remains that the six counties are not in the eu.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yet many decided to vote for something that damages Ireland.
> Probably because those voters are cunts.


It’s made a united ireland slightly more plausible which will benefit the Irish people.  Unless you’re a cunt, of course.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think it's as damaging to ireland as successive governments in dublin have been, including the current grand alliance between fianna fail and fine gael?


You told me you have me in ignore because you regard me as contemptible.
Please keep me on your ignore.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Lots of things weren’t mentioned in the ballot paper, but the fact remains that the six counties are not in the eu.


Where is the land border between the six counties and the EU then?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> It’s made a united ireland slightly more plausible which will benefit the Irish people.  Unless you’re a cunt, of course.


Only cunts want to rewrite history to suggest the vote to leave was at the time framed as a vote for a United Ireland.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Only cunts want to rewrite history to suggest the vote to leave was at the time framed as a vote for a United Ireland.


No one said it was and only a cunt would say they did.  


philosophical said:


> Where is the land border between the six counties and the EU then?


I see you’re attempting to gain the goalpost shifting award from *****


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> No one said it was and only a cunt would say they did.
> 
> I see you’re attempting to gain the goalpost shifting award from *****


No I am not.
I have referenced the ballot paper and what was on it.
A goalpost fixed into the ground for all to see.
Your comment above ‘a bit got special arrangements’ suggests to me an attempt to alter goalposts much more than my revisiting the original vote.
It takes a particular kind of doublethink for anybody to now frame the vote to leave as a vote for a United Ireland.
And another kind of doublethink for anybody to suggest the six counties have left the EU along with the rest of the UK whilst there is no change to the land border on the island of Ireland.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> No I am not.
> I have referenced the ballot paper and what was on it.
> A goalpost fixed into the ground for all to see.
> Your comment above ‘a bit got special arrangements’ suggests to me an attempt to alter goalposts much more than my revisiting the original vote.
> ...


God you’re an idiot.  Quite why you choose to rewrite what is plainly written is a mystery.  Hey ho, you’ll never change even when fact after fact proves you wrong.  

If there’s an Irish remake of The Bridge, I know the perfect role for you.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> God you’re an idiot.  Quite why you choose to rewrite what is plainly written is a mystery.  Hey ho, you’ll never change even when fact after fact proves you wrong.
> 
> If there’s an Irish remake of The Bridge, I know the perfect role for you.


ah yes in the opening episode


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> God you’re an idiot.  Quite why you choose to rewrite what is plainly written is a mystery.  Hey ho, you’ll never change even when fact after fact proves you wrong.
> 
> If there’s an Irish remake of The Bridge, I know the perfect role for you.


You have not provided any facts (after facts) that the vote to leave as written on the ballot paper has been honoured.
You are reduced to personal abuse (‘god you’re an idiot’) because when challenged you struggle to provide a reasoned response.
I will ask you again.
If the whole of the UK has left the whole of the EU as voted for, how come there is a wide open land border in Ireland?


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You have not provided any facts (after facts) that the vote to leave as written on the ballot paper has been honoured.
> You are reduced to personal abuse (‘god you’re an idiot’) because when challenged you struggle to provide a reasoned response.
> I will ask you again.
> If the whole of the UK has left the whole of the EU as voted for, how come there is a wide open land border in Ireland?


The man calling everyone who disagrees with him a ‘cunt’ is complaining about personal abuse? Ohh the ironing.  

Now kindly go fuck yourself.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You told me you have me in ignore because you regard me as contemptible.
> Please keep me on your ignore.


soz where did i say that?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yet many decided to vote for something that damages Ireland.
> Probably because those voters are cunts.


Keep taking the tablets dear.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> The man calling everyone who disagrees with him a ‘cunt’ is complaining about personal abuse? Ohh the ironing.
> 
> Now kindly go fuck yourself.


I have not called everybody who disagrees with me a cunt.
You are struggling with reality.
Your exhortation that I go fuck myself is a smokescreen to divert from your inability to make a reasoned argument.
If the whole of the UK has left the whole of the EU _as voted for on the ballot paper _how has the land border on the island of Ireland between those two separate systems manifested itself?
It hasn’t, therefore ‘leave’ has not happened as voted for.
Now if only for entertainment purposes, if you wish to continue with the personal abuse could you make it more creative and original?


----------



## ska invita (Jul 6, 2021)

Records mentioned already, books here, though in fact these new rules this month effect every thing sold to the EU and NI whatever the value




__





						Post-Brexit charges hit retailers as presses call for government support on VAT | The Bookseller
					






					www.thebookseller.com
				




Post-Brexit charges hit retailers as presses call for government support on VAT​


> UK retailers say they are being impacted by post-Brexit costs as indie publishers call for the government to assist on VAT charges that have halted EU deliveries.
> 
> Following the UK’s exit from the European Union and the end of the transition arrangement, new rules kicked in this month requiring businesses to register for VAT, which is now applicable on all sales at the rate charged in the customers' country. Sellers may choose to charge the rate and complete the required submission on the One Stop Shop — a government system that removes the requirement for a business to have multiple VAT registrations in EU countries — or pass on the charge to the customer, to be paid before the product is received.
> 
> ...


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> soz where did i say that?


In your personal message to me.
When I asked you if I should post that message out in the forum you firstly said to do it, then immediately said not to because posting personal messages is not allowed.
Actually I was grateful that you changed your mind and warned me not to.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Keep taking the tablets dear.



I believe that previously you have said you voted leave.
If I am right, that might go some way to explain your personal antipathy to me which conveniently replaces any reasoned argument you fail to provide.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I have not called everybody who disagrees with me a cunt.
> You are struggling with reality.
> Your exhortation that I go fuck myself is a smokescreen to divert from your inability to make a reasoned argument.
> If the whole of the UK has left the whole of the EU _as voted for on the ballot paper _how has the land border on the island of Ireland between those two separate systems manifested itself?
> ...


I did, but you’re too much of a monomaniac mumpsimus to have realised.  

it is a fact that the entire uk has left the eu.   The ballot paper made no mention of borders, land or otherwise.  Hence it is you adding non-existing requirements to a  simple proposition that has been carried through (albeit atrociously).


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> I did, but you’re too much of a monomaniac mumpsimus to have realised.
> 
> it is a fact that the entire uk has left the eu.   The ballot paper made no mention of borders, land or otherwise.  Hence it is you adding non-existing requirements to a  simple proposition that has been carried through (albeit atrociously).


I disagree.
The ballot paper mentioned ‘the UK’ which is an entity within borders.
I think it is you who has failed to realise that ‘leave’ as voted for has not happened.
If you have evidence pertaining to the changes on the land border in Ireland since the vote, then post the links as I am open to further facts and knowledge in that area.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I disagree.
> The ballot paper mentioned ‘the UK’ which is an entity within borders.
> I think it is you who has failed to realise that ‘leave’ as voted for has not happened.
> If you have evidence pertaining to the changes on the land border in Ireland since the vote, then post the links as I am open to further facts and knowledge in that area.


So you agree that it is you adding words which aren’t there.  That’s a start.  

So now I’m sure you’ll be able to find pieces from the British government and the EU that states the six counties are full members of the EU.  

Come back as soon as you’ve done that, but not before.  Thank you.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> So you agree that it is you adding words which aren’t there.  That’s a start.
> 
> So now I’m sure you’ll be able to find pieces from the British government and the EU that states the six counties are full members of the EU.
> 
> Come back as soon as you’ve done that, but not before.  Thank you.


Adding words to what was on the ballot paper?

For clarity this is a copy of the 2016 ballot paper:


What words have I added to this?


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Adding words to what was on the ballot paper?
> 
> For clarity this is a copy of the 2016 ballot paper:
> 
> ...


Six letters.  Starts with a B


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Border. Repeatedly.


If there are two entities side by side as in the UK and the EU, then what seperates them is commonly called a border.
If you want to disappear down a rabbit hole to suggest that a border isn't implied by the ballot paper I'll leave you to it.
To me the concept of 'leave' means a border.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In your personal message to me.
> When I asked you if I should post that message out in the forum you firstly said to do it, then immediately said not to because posting personal messages is not allowed.
> Actually I was grateful that you changed your mind and warned me not to.


it seems you haven't taken my warning to heart

from the faq

post reported


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If there are two entities side by side as in the UK and the EU, then what seperates them is commonly called a border.
> If you want to disappear down a rabbit hole to suggest that a border isn't implied by the ballot paper I'll leave you to it.
> To me the concept of 'leave' means a border.


I see you added the word ‘imply’.  Good, you are almost accepting your wrongness.  The wording ‘implies’ many things, but implications don’t count, only agreed facts.

Which returns me to my previous exhortation:

I’m sure you’ll be able to find pieces from the British government and the EU that states the six counties are full members of the EU.  

Come back as soon as you’ve done that, but not before. Thank you.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it seems you haven't taken my warning to heart
> 
> from the faq
> View attachment 277219
> post reported


You asked in public 'where did I say that'?
And I told you.
If you are now using a clever maneuver to try to get me banned then so be it, I would hope those in charge can see the alleged offence for what it is.
A trick played by you.


----------



## andysays (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Where is the land border between the six counties and the EU then?





philosophical said:


> If you have evidence pertaining to the changes on the land border in Ireland since the vote, then post the links as I am open to further facts and knowledge in that area.


We've been over this at least once, possibly more.

The location of the border between the UK and Eire (and hence now between the UK and the EU) is exactly where it's been since the partition of Ireland on 3 May 1921.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You asked in public 'where did I say that'?
> And I told you.


you posted up something from a private conversation. and then you posted up some more from a private conversation. and this after being clearly told that this was against the rules of the boards, as you acknowledge.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> I see you added the word ‘imply’.  Good, you are almost accepting your wrongness.  The wording ‘implies’ many things, but implications don’t count, only agreed facts.
> 
> Which returns me to my previous exhortation:
> 
> ...


This really is circular.
The 'fact' is the word 'leave' was printed.
Leave hasn't happened in a practical sense on the land border between the EU and the UK.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> This really is circular.
> The 'fact' is the word 'leave' was printed.
> Leave hasn't happened in a practical sense on the land border between the EU and the UK.


I’m sure you’ll be able to find pieces from the British government and the EU that states the six counties are full members of the EU.  

Come back as soon as you’ve done that, but not before. Thank you.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you posted up something from a private conversation. and then you posted up some more from a private conversation. and this after being clearly told that this was against the rules of the boards, as you acknowledge.


I answered your question.
I answered by mentioning *part *of something you wrote to me as a helpful answer to your enquiry.
What I was told was that copying the contents of the *whole *of a conversation was against the rules.
Not helpfully answering your question with a reminder which is what I have done.
Anyway, well played if you have tricked me into being banned, you love a no platforming I'll wager.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

andysays said:


> We've been over this at least once, possibly more.
> 
> The location of the border between the UK and Eire (and hence now between the UK and the EU) is exactly where it's been since the partition of Ireland on 3 May 1921.


This is what the border used to look like in places:


This is what it looked like at the time of the referendum:



Can you tell me what has changed since the vote to leave?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I answered your question.
> I answered by mentioning *part *of something you wrote to me as a helpful answer to your enquiry.
> What I was told was that copying the contents of the *whole *of a conversation was against the rules.
> Not helpfully answering your question with a reminder which is what I have done.
> Anyway, well played if you have tricked me into being banned, you love a no platforming I'll wager.


i never told you anything of the sort, and i haven't tricked you into anything.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i never told you anything of the sort, and i haven't tricked you into anything.


Re-vist your private messages to me on May 14th and you will see that I am right.
(Am I allowed to even reference that you sent any private messages at all?)


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Now if only for entertainment purposes, if you wish to continue with the personal abuse could you make it more creative and original?


You suck diseased dogs cocks.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You suck diseased dogs cocks.


Should be ‘dicks’ for full alliterative effect.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

Coming late to this discussion, it looks a little odd.
Why would anyone want to argue that NI is still in the EU when it's a matter of factual record that it's only in the supra-state's single market, not its political union?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> Should be ‘dicks’ for full alliterative effect.


Exactly.
Needs more work.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Coming late to this discussion, it looks a little odd.
> Why would anyone want to argue that NI is still in the EU when it's a matter of factual record that it's only in the supra-state's single market, not its political union?


Perhaps the way to look at it not that NI is still in the EU, but that the UK hasn't left the EU.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Perhaps the way to look at it not that NI is still in the EU, but that the UK hasn't left the EU.


M8 you really need to keep up with current affairs.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Perhaps the way to look at it not that NI is still in the EU, but that the UK hasn't left the EU.


You’re name implies you should be knowledgeable of key philosophical concepts.  Ones like logic and causation.  Yet this is contradicted by what you post.   Almost as if their can be false implications.









						2.3: Implications
					






					math.libretexts.org


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

brogdale said:


> M8 you really need to keep up with current affairs.


My stance has been that in a practical sense the border is completely open.
My argument has been that it seems illogical that if the UK is supposed to have left then changes would not be manifest on the land border.
The shenanigans, as yet seemingly unresolved, regarding the 'border in the Irish Sea' point to the notion that once leaving is supposed to have happened some kind of border somewhere is established.
Recent developments have led to resistance to the notion of the Irish Sea Border (a confirmation that both the EU and the UK see 'a' border as a consequence that flows from leaving). The practical realities indicate that the 'leaving' has at the very least not fully happened, which is my point about that _isn't_ what was voted for...a partial dogs dinner kind of leaving...the vote was simply (sic) to leave.
I don't know if you think leaving has happened in terms of all border issues being neatly sorted and agreed, but it doesn't look like that from my perspective.
It looks like a wide open bit of territory across which anything goes.
If the concept of leaving only applies to laws and paperwork and declarations and rules and such like...not practicalities, then maybe a clever lawyer can point to the paperwork and declare 'lo! The UK has left the EU', but that looks like an Emperor's New Clothes scenario, the UK has left the EU if you believe hard enough, but the *practicalities* are a different matter, just as you'll freeze your bollocks off in cold weather if you start to wear the same clothes as the Emperor.
Current affairs are the start of the Marching Season, and you may well find resentment about the sea border rearing its head during the time of those events.
You may well decry my references to a border as you have done above, but it is still a live issue.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 6, 2021)

Fuck all the Orange marching bastards.


----------



## Des Kinvig (Jul 6, 2021)

the issue of a border is surely down to the single market, rather than the eu, no? we could have left the eu and remained in the single market, therefore having no controlled borders, but we would have still left the eu. what defines being in the eu or not isn’t whether or not you have a controlled border with it.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

belboid said:


> You’re name implies you should be knowledgeable of key philosophical concepts.  Ones like logic and causation.  Yet this is contradicted by what you post.   Almost as if their can be false implications.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Isn't it more complex than that?
For example is 'freedom' a viable concept, or is such a state better described as the absence of restrictions because as Rousseau points out.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

Des Kinvig said:


> the issue of a border is surely down to the single market, rather than the eu, no? we could have left the eu and remained in the single market, therefore having no controlled borders, but we would have still left the eu. what defines being in the eu or not isn’t whether or not you have a controlled border with it.



Being in a single market would probably have resolved the border issue at a stroke, but my perception is that brexiters would see that outcome as rule takers not rule makers, and rejected it.
Hence the separation, between which there is usually something commonly known as a border.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Isn't it more complex than that?
> For example is 'freedom' a viable concept, or is such a state better described as the absence of restrictions because as Rousseau points out.


bloody hell, that must half a dozen set of borders you've shifted those goalposts over


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> My stance has been that in a practical sense the border is completely open.
> My argument has been that it seems illogical that if the UK is supposed to have left then changes would not be manifest on the land border.
> The shenanigans, as yet seemingly unresolved, regarding the 'border in the Irish Sea' point to the notion that once leaving is supposed to have happened some kind of border somewhere is established.
> Recent developments have led to resistance to the notion of the Irish Sea Border (a confirmation that both the EU and the UK see 'a' border as a consequence that flows from leaving). The practical realities indicate that the 'leaving' has at the very least not fully happened, which is my point about that _isn't_ what was voted for...a partial dogs dinner kind of leaving...the vote was simply (sic) to leave.
> ...


I genuinely can't fathom what it is you don't get.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 6, 2021)

I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.


----------



## belboid (Jul 6, 2021)

I don’t think anyone thinks it is done and dusted, nor that it will be within the next five years. 

That the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland is no longer legally a member of the European Union, however….


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.



Shut up.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 6, 2021)

philosophical said:


> I don’t get the notion some people hold that leave as voted for is now done and dusted.


But it was you that posted the facsimile ballot paper, above, with the wording _Leave the European Union; _that happened at 23:00 GMT on 31 January 2020.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 6, 2021)

Philosophical, it's a bit of an odd position for a remainer to be saying that what's happening doesn't really count as Brexit. I'm not stopping you, just making an observation.

Don't you recall before the referendum, there were people talking about how their could be different versions of Brexit, like the Norway model, the Canada model and so on? All that's happened is they picked the who-gives-a-toss-about-Northern-Ireland model.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Looks more like an attempt at a turn a blind eye model.
I have said the practical reality of the vote to leave is not happening.
Especially as Northern Ireland is treated differently to the rest of the UK, which was certainly not on the ballot paper.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> But it was you that posted the facsimile ballot paper, above, with the wording _Leave the European Union; _that happened at 23:00 GMT on 31 January 2020.


The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 7, 2021)

No, it wasn't on the ballot paper. Lots of things that weren't on the ballot paper have happened. But whether or not Brexit has happened is only really to do with what was on the ballot paper. Anything else is a bonus.


----------



## Des Kinvig (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Being in a single market would probably have resolved the border issue at a stroke, but my perception is that brexiters would see that outcome as rule takers not rule makers, and rejected it.
> Hence the separation, between which there is usually something commonly known as a border.



being in the single market would have meant an open border in ireland, the same as it is now. but out of the eu.

if two people were leaving a pub, could there be an argument that they didn’t actually leave, because they didn’t go to the same place after, or one of them climbed out the bog window and the other went out the door?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
> Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
> I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.


NI cannot be and is not a member state of the EU supra-state; why are you wasting your time fretting that it is?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The wording also included ‘should the United Kingdom’ didn’t it?
> Whatever happened was not what was voted for due to what is called the Norther Ireland Protocol.
> I don’t see how treating Northern Ireland differently was what was on the ballot paper we have both referenced.


The wording was as you say should the UK leave. So the result showed a larger number saying yes the UK should leave. That's all. There's nothing there about 'we will legislate to enshrine the result in law'.


----------



## belboid (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.


Brings us? It’s all you’ve talked of for three years.  In which time your opinion hasn’t changed one iota and you’ve just said ‘but, but, but, the _border_!!’  Around 2,850 times.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.


You think those should have been on the ballot paper too?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> Brings us? It’s all you’ve talked of for three years.  In which time your opinion hasn’t changed one iota and you’ve just said ‘but, but, but, the _border_!!’  Around 2,850 times.


Maybe not such a high number but essentially you're right. 
The land border issue remains unresolved. 
I have posted other stuff on other threads too.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You think those should have been on the ballot paper too?


Yes.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Which brings us to the practicalities of the open land border in Ireland.


In what way is it impractical?
The two signatories to the WA & TA, the UK state and EU supra-state, have reached agreement about the open border via the NI protocol. But then, you know that, don't you?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Yes.


But your point falls because your interpretation of the question is to say the least idiosyncratic and perverse, promoting the ballot paper to the central document in this matter above the previous six months of campaigning and all the documents issued by government and the various campaigns.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> NI cannot be and is not a member state of the EU supra-state; why are you wasting your time fretting that it is?


Who is the MEP for NI? I must have missed their election.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

brogdale said:


> In what way is it impractical?
> The two signatories to the WA & TA, the UK state and EU supra-state, have reached agreement about the open border via the NI protocol. But then, you know that, don't you?


Yes I know that.
And it is proving to be an impractical load of nonsense.
And not what was voted for.


Pickman's model said:


> But your point falls because your interpretation of the question is to say the least idiosyncratic and perverse, promoting the ballot paper to the central document in this matter above the previous six months of campaigning and all the documents issued by government and the various campaigns.


If you mean the Brexit campaign can you remember references to the Irish land border in particular?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> If you mean the Brexit campaign can you remember references to the Irish land border in particular?


To refresh my memory I searched the Nexis database of newspapers and there were loads including in the ft. On phone atm but quite happy to crush you under the weight of articles later


----------



## belboid (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> And not what was voted for.


You have no idea why people voted the war they did in the referendum.  But they then voted again and elected Tory cunts. Said cunts (eventually) agreed this plan and they got re-elected.  

tough shit if you don’t like it or think it’s contradictory.   If it’s taken you this long to work out that that’s life under late capitalism you’ve been a lucky motherfucker.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> To refresh my memory I searched the Nexis database of newspapers and there were loads including in the ft. On phone atm but quite happy to crush you under the weight of articles later


Go for it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Go for it.


Being as your entire corpus of posts is built on the sandy claim that no one ever ever thought of the border before 23.6.16 it will be a pleasure


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> You have no idea why people voted the war they did in the referendum.  But they then voted again and elected Tory cunts. Said cunts (eventually) agreed this plan and they got re-elected.
> 
> tough shit if you don’t like it or think it’s contradictory.   If it’s taken you this long to work out that that’s life under late capitalism you’ve been a lucky motherfucker.


In the absence of knowing for certain why people voted the way they did (I have speculated as many others have done) we are left with only the ballot paper to go by aren’t we?
No I don’t like it, nor the Tory government and it is indeed tough shit.
That doesn’t rule out moaning about it, and taking what practical steps that may present themselves, including attempting to make the Brexit voters reflect on what damage they have caused.
Have you seen any recent pictures of wall slogans in Northern Ireland that say no sea border? The vote to leave is going to create conflict for many years to come.
I am certainly not sorting out my contribution to the festival of Brexit Britain intended to ‘bring the country together’. Leave voters have called on the conflict and I will engage with it as best I can.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Being as your entire corpus of posts is built on the sandy claim that no one ever ever thought of the border before 23.6.16 it will be a pleasure


Go for it.
Score as many internet points as you like, the land border will remain a huge problem.


----------



## belboid (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> In the absence of knowing for certain why people voted the way they did (I have speculated as many others have done) we are left with only the ballot paper to go by aren’t we?


no


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Go for it.
> Score as many internet points as you like, the land border will remain a huge problem.


Goalposts strapped to his back and a big line of speed. Watch him move.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> no


Lucky you if you know why people voted leave.
I am not inclined to go by what people say in this instance, but by how the leave vote is manifested in practical terms.


----------



## belboid (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Lucky you if you know why people voted leave.
> I am not inclined to go by what people say in this instance, but by how the leave vote is manifested in practical terms.


Ffs you’re either the dumbest fucker on the planet or a really dull troll.  Either way you add nothing so welcome to ignore.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Go for it.
> Score as many internet points as you like, the land border will remain a huge problem.


Yes, we have thousands of your posts saying that. you asked whether there'd been discussion of the matter during the referendum campaign. The answer is yes, yes there was. I'll add some evidence to support that later but it's a bit fucking rich of you to fart on about point scoring when I'm just answering your shitty question


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Lucky you if you know why people voted leave.
> I am not inclined to go by what people say in this instance, but by how the leave vote is manifested in practical terms.


This makes no sense


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This makes no sense


I will explain. He didn’t like the way you undermined his argument with facts. So he changed his point of reference. Again. 
Responding to the tedious cunt just drags the thread through the shit.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

belboid said:


> Ffs you’re either the dumbest fucker on the planet or a really dull troll.  Either way you add nothing so welcome to ignore.


Good.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, we have thousands of your posts saying that. you asked whether there'd been discussion of the matter during the referendum campaign. The answer is yes, yes there was. I'll add some evidence to support that later but it's a bit fucking rich of you to fart on about point scoring when I'm just answering your shitty question


You offered to provide the evidence. I didn't demand it of you. So I await the results of all your research clearly indicating the issues pertaining to the land border in Ireland published and made widely available to everybody during the leave/remain campaign.
Go for it and make good your offer.
I will help you by suggesting that there is a video of Theresa May mentioning the issue...So you now have that to get you started.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You offered to provide the evidence. I didn't demand it of you. So I await the results of all your research clearly indicating the issues pertaining to the land border in Ireland published and made widely available to everybody during the leave/remain campaign.
> Go for it and make good your offer.
> I will help you by suggesting that there is a video of Theresa May mentioning the issue...So you now have that to get you started.


Goalposts moved again. I’m thinking of campaigning for thread bans for you.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I will explain. He didn’t like the way you undermined his argument with facts. So he changed his point of reference. Again.
> Responding to the tedious cunt just drags the thread through the shit.


 
I have not had my positioned undermined by facts.
Am I right in assuming you voted leave?
If so in terms of 'not like (ing)' things it explains your abusive reaction to me.
As well as your total misrepresentation of what has happened.
Enjoy your festival of Brexit.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Goalposts moved again. I’m thinking of campaigning for thread bans for you.



I have not moved goalposts. The fact that others say I have been banging on about the same thing for years indicates how consistent I have been.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> This makes no sense


If somebody deliberately burns your house down then I am less inclined to believe them when they say they didn't mean it and more inclined to survey the smoking ruin.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> You offered to provide the evidence. I didn't demand it of you. So I await the results of all your research clearly indicating the issues pertaining to the land border in Ireland published and made widely available to everybody during the leave/remain campaign.
> Go for it and make good your offer.
> I will help you by suggesting that there is a video of Theresa May mentioning the issue...So you now have that to get you started.


Yeh I'm still out but here's one for now


----------



## andysays (Jul 7, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Goalposts moved again. I’m thinking of campaigning for thread bans for you.


Either than or restricting him to his very own thread where he can drone on about the border to his heart's content.

I've got him on ignore again now but this thread is more or less pointless while he's posting.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I'm still out but here's one for nowView attachment 277330



Keep going.
If your contention is that everybody clearly knew, or ought to have known, that a vote to leave would have serious and damaging consequences for the land border in Ireland, because the sources you cite were widespread and embedded, yet happily voted for that damage then it indicates their depth of cuntishness to me.
And with the knowledge of something like the necessity of a controlled border after a vote to leave we have no land border and the dogs dinner of the Northern Ireland protocol.
I don’t know how you gather your evidence by the way, it looks as if you have simply typed in ‘Ireland’ and ‘Border’ into a search engine or document of some kind (judging by the yellow highlights) and it has thrown up something partial and incomplete.
Perhaps you can complete the paragraph that reads ‘…the EU that would allow trade to continue unhindered across the border with Ireland. Boris Johnson the London Mayor who has become a leading…’ because as linked it makes no sense.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)

philosophical said:


> Keep going.
> If your contention is that everybody clearly knew, or ought to have known, that a vote to leave would have serious and damaging consequences for the land border in Ireland, because the sources you cite were widespread and embedded, yet happily voted for that damage then it indicates their depth of cuntishness to me.
> And with the knowledge of something like the necessity of a controlled border after a vote to leave we have no land border and the dogs dinner of the Northern Ireland protocol.
> I don’t know how you gather your evidence by the way, it looks as if you have simply typed in ‘Ireland’ and ‘Border’ into a search engine or document of some kind (judging by the yellow highlights) and it has thrown up something partial and incomplete.
> Perhaps you can complete the paragraph that reads ‘…the EU that would allow trade to continue unhindered across the border with Ireland. Boris Johnson the London Mayor who has become a leading…’ because as linked it makes no sense.


Yeh I'm out atm doing something positive, I'm not sat at work there just to do your bidding


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 7, 2021)




----------



## philosophical (Jul 7, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh I'm out atm doing something positive, I'm not sat at work there just to do your bidding


It isn't really my bidding is it? I am following up on your offer.


----------



## andysays (Jul 8, 2021)

Sorry to interrupt this thread dedicated solely to the issues of the Irish border, but here's another story which suggests that the shortage of lorry drivers and shortages of goods on supermarket shelves some may have experienced is not simply the result of "Brexit", and also that the government doesn't want to take the necessary steps to solve the problem.

*Backlash against longer hours to ease lorry driver shortage*


> A temporary extension of lorry drivers' working hours has been met with backlash from the industry who say the government is applying a "sticking plaster" to driver shortage problems. HGV drivers can increase their daily driving limits from nine to 10 hours or change weekly rest patterns on Monday.





> Transport Secretary Grant Shapps said the move would give flexibility to drivers to make slightly longer trips. But the Road Haulage Association said the move wouldn't make any difference. The RHA believes there is currently a shortfall of about 60,000 lorry drivers and said the relaxation on driving hour limits was a "sticking plaster".


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Population 38k


----------



## Raheem (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 277572
> 
> Population 38k


And not even a proper trade deal, I don't think, just an acknowledgement of the UK-EU one.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Raheem said:


> And not even a proper trade deal, I don't think, just an acknowledgement of the UK-EU one.


Of course.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 8, 2021)

brogdale said:


> View attachment 277572
> 
> Population 38k




Massive banking centre though.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 8, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Massive banking centre though.


Even better.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 12, 2021)

a little brexit anecdote; saw my friend this weekend, his brother moved to spain end of the 90s and overtime came to buy a small and cheap house in the outback...was living cheap there ever since... ffwd to brexit, wanted to apply to remain but doesnt have the provable income, so has been forced to move back to uk this year and is now living on a dank canal boat moored up under the a1 near bedford and is deeply deeply gutted and generally fucked.
it'll be interesting to hear stats as to how many people come back from the continent, though i guess there is no reason anyone would've noted his return so as to count it, so stats might not be available


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2021)

Here's the current business view on Brexit



> More than eight in 10 business owners believe Brexit will have a long-term negative impact on trading with almost half reporting a hit from the UK’s exit from the European Union at the turn of this year, a survey conducted for i has found.
> 
> Conducted six months after Brexit, the survey of firms by tax and advisory firm Blick Rothenberg also found that 80 per cent of respondents found the Covid-19 pandemic has hit firms harder than Brexit, but that in the longer term the ending of free trade with the EU will have a more detrimental effect.
> 
> Alex Altmann, head of the Brexit advisory team at Blick Rothenberg, said: “While 47 per cent of the responders said that the first six months after Brexit had either a negative or very negative impact to their business, close to 80 per cent said the disruptions due to the pandemic had an even more negative impact to their business than Brexit.











						Eight in 10 businesses believe Brexit will cause long-term hurt for UK economy
					

An exclusive poll for i shows that firms feel the Government had not done enough to support them through Brexit




					inews.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2021)

And in NI:








						'It's two steps forward, 10 steps back:' Brexit, shifting demographics and familiar tensions stoke divisions in Northern Ireland
					

Niamh Burns is organizing a special 20-year reunion for her schoolmates this year. But while the accomplishments of the "Courageous Classes of 2001" are worth celebrating, the date they are commemorating is not.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Humberto (Jul 13, 2021)

There was no one offering what you wanted at the time though was there? Cameron and Osborne? Who?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> a little brexit anecdote; saw my friend this weekend, his brother moved to spain end of the 90s and overtime came to buy a small and cheap house in the outback...was living cheap there ever since... ffwd to brexit, wanted to apply to remain but doesnt have the provable income, so has been forced to move back to uk this year and is now living on a dank canal boat moored up under the a1 near bedford and is deeply deeply gutted and generally fucked.
> it'll be interesting to hear stats as to how many people come back from the continent, though i guess there is no reason anyone would've noted his return so as to count it, so stats might not be available


Did they threaten to kick him out? I’m surprised as I know several people living in Spain with no residency who have had no hassle. Can’t leave for the uk easily but otherwise no problems.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

editor said:


> And in NI:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So loyalists remain cunts. Brexit is making them more cuntish if that were possible. So what. Fuck them. Soon just a footnote.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's the current business view on Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Anti capitalists for capitalism.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> a little brexit anecdote; saw my friend this weekend, his brother moved to spain end of the 90s and overtime came to buy a small and cheap house in the outback...was living cheap there ever since... ffwd to brexit, wanted to apply to remain but *doesnt have the provable income*
> , so has been forced to move back to uk this year and is now living on a dank canal boat moored up under the a1 near bedford and is deeply deeply gutted and generally fucked.
> it'll be interesting to hear stats as to how many people come back from the continent, though i guess there is no reason anyone would've noted his return so as to count it, so stats might not be available[/B]




**


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did they threaten to kick him out? I’m surprised as I know several people living in Spain with no residency who have had no hassle. Can’t leave for the uk easily but otherwise no problems.


Got very little sympathy for those who flaunt a countries residency rules tbh. How much are dank canal boats in Bedford these days?


----------



## philosophical (Jul 13, 2021)

Fuck me it's Stanley (the Irish will always shoot each other) Johnson posting above.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Got very little sympathy for those who flaunt a countries residency rules tbh. How much are dank canal boats in Bedford these days?


Twenty grand plus then mooring costs or continuous cruising.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

So could of rented a flat.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 13, 2021)

and after 3 years he's got nothing while his way he'll still have a canal boat. If it's as bad as that where he is he can always go for a little jaunt up the canal.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 13, 2021)

two sheds said:


> and after 3 years he's got nothing while his way he'll still have a canal boat. If it's as bad as that where he is he can always go for a little jaunt up the canal.


He can fish his own dinner!.


----------



## andysays (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> a little brexit anecdote; saw my friend this weekend, his brother moved to spain end of the 90s and overtime came to buy a small and cheap house in the outback...was living cheap there ever since... ffwd to brexit, wanted to apply to remain but doesnt have the provable income, so has been forced to move back to uk this year and is now living on a dank canal boat moored up under the a1 near bedford and is deeply deeply gutted and generally fucked.
> it'll be interesting to hear stats as to how many people come back from the continent, though i guess there is no reason anyone would've noted his return so as to count it, so stats might not be available


What does "doesn't have the provable income" mean in this case?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> What does "doesn't have the provable income" mean in this case?


Got to show income of x per year. Can’t remember how much.


----------



## andysays (Jul 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Got to show income of x per year. Can’t remember how much.


I know that, I'm wondering why ska invita has specifically used the word "provable"


----------



## editor (Jul 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Anti capitalists for capitalism.


Yeah, fuck all the businesses, man. All of them. Even the small ones. And the people they employ. And musicians, bands, artists, actors, performers, stage crew too.  Because Brexit is just soooo worth it.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> I know that, I'm wondering why ska invita has specifically used the word "provable"


You have to be able to evidence the income. Bank statements and such.


----------



## andysays (Jul 13, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You have to be able to evidence the income. Bank statements and such.


I realise you're trying to be helpful, but I'm actually asking ska invita to answer my question as to why this specific person in their anecdote doesn't have sufficient provable income, and I'm still hoping to get a answer from them, not from you or anyone else.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> What does "doesn't have the provable income" mean in this case?


Doesn't earn anywhere near that much


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

Cant tell you anymore about this person as it's my friends brother and I've passed on everything he told me.


----------



## andysays (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Doesn't earn anywhere near that much


So it's not an issue of provability, simply one of not earning enough?

I'm slightly surprised that they're apparently able to afford to buy property, but don't earn over the income threshold, but maybe that's more reflection of the Spanish property market not being as ridiculous as here in Britain.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 13, 2021)

quite the horticultural part of the world. Online, vacuum sealing, you can absorb a reasonable level of 'wastage' as well.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

andysays said:


> So it's not an issue of provability, simply one of not earning enough?
> 
> I'm slightly surprised that they're apparently able to afford to buy property, but don't earn over the income threshold, but maybe that's more reflection of the Spanish property market not being as ridiculous as here in Britain.


I don't know his financial details but I have two close friends in Spain and know of (not personally but via friends) many more, including some old free party peeps... There's definitely a network of Brits living out there on the cheap... There's all kinds of cheap land and near abandoned houses in Spain


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Doesn't earn anywhere near that much


Not being funny Ska but this bloke had about a decade or more  to apply for residency pre December 31st  2020. Even though theres nearly always been a 'sufficient financial means ' test on paper it was rarely applied pre Dec 31st . Once you are in they dont ask you when you renew.


----------



## ska invita (Jul 13, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Not being funny Ska but this bloke had about a decade or more  to apply for residency pre December 31st  2020. Even though theres nearly always been a 'sufficient financial means ' test on paper it was rarely applied pre Dec 31st . One you are in they dont ask you when you renew.


dont know about that, but i do know hes thinking of moving to portugal because of the lower threshold there


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 13, 2021)

ska invita said:


> dont know about that, but i do know hes thinking of moving to portugal because of the lower threshold there


Takes note to speak to Portuguese Socialist Party about higher income thresholds for UK  hippies


----------



## teuchter (Jul 14, 2021)

I don't quite get the reasons for the line of questioning here - is the implication that 'he's probably a drug dealer or something so it serves him right'?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2021)

teuchter said:


> I don't quite get the reasons for the line of questioning here - is the implication that 'he's probably a drug dealer or something so it serves him right'?


No implication like that at all.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Yeah, fuck all the businesses, man. All of them. Even the small ones. And the people they employ. And musicians, bands, artists, actors, performers, stage crew too.  Because Brexit is just soooo worth it.


You forgot advert jingle composers.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> You forgot advert jingle composers.


And there you go again. Belittling musicians and the creative industry. Shameful, really.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 14, 2021)

It's genuinely fascinating to see just relentless negativity. You have to be so dedicted to be that myopic.  U75 is truly a niche internet environment.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> And there you go again. Belittling musicians and the creative industry. Shameful, really.


Ad jingles don't just make themselves you know and it's disappointing to see you belittle the skill and thought that goes into crafting them.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 14, 2021)

a partial, one-week summary:


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Ad jingles don't just make themselves you know and it's disappointing to see you belittle the skill and thought that goes into crafting them.


That's precisely not what I'm doing.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> That's precisely not what I'm doing.


i'm sure TopCat had in mind the people who wrote and performed such material as 'shake and vac' 'go compare' and of course 'just one cornetto', which may not often feature in the annals of popular music but have had such an effect on millions of people


----------



## TopCat (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> And there you go again. Belittling musicians and the creative industry. Shameful, really.


Not a mite shameful especially compared with demands to ignore the vote of 17 million leave voters.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not a mite shameful especially compared with demands to ignore the vote of 17 million leave voters.


Who's been making those 'demands' to 'ignore' those votes here?


----------



## andysays (Jul 14, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Not a mite shameful especially compared with demands to ignore the vote of 17 million leave voters.


That's "17 million *anti-creative* Leave voters" if you don't mind.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> That's "17 million *anti-creative* Leave voters" if you don't mind.


Nice quote! Where's it from?


----------



## andysays (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Nice quote! Where's it from?


It isn't a direct quote, but you have a number of times described those of us who voted Leave as being anti-creative, as well as implying that those of us who don't work in the "creative industries" are somehow lesser beings, so I think it captures your position (or at least how your position often comes across to me) quite well.

Call it creative licence if you like.


----------



## editor (Jul 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> It isn't a direct quote, but you have a number of times described those of us who voted Leave as being anti-creative, as well as implying that those of us who don't work in the "creative industries" are somehow lesser beings, so I think it captures your position (or at least how your position often comes across to me) quite well.
> 
> Call it creative licence if you like.


Well that fact-free, rather bizarre and slightly paranoid stream of unhinged nonsense  is certainly all coming right out of your head.

No one has accused you or anyone else of being 'lesser beings,' you weirdo.

But some posters certainly have appeared to have depressingly dismissive and belittling attitudes to musicians and those in the creative industries in previous posts. Remind me why they're going on about 'jingles' again?

*typo corrected


----------



## brogdale (Jul 14, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> a partial, one-week summary:



Partial being the operative word here in trolley land.


----------



## andysays (Jul 14, 2021)

editor said:


> Remind me why they're going on about 'jungles' again?


I dunno, is that a style of music the young people are into these days?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 14, 2021)

First they came for the ski instructors
Then they came for the bongo drummers


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 14, 2021)

here's something from the ... _checks notes_ ... creative arts >>


----------



## brogdale (Jul 14, 2021)

_Checks notes _is an anagram of #craftywank


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 15, 2021)

but won't someone think of road managers >>


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> but won't someone think of road managers >>



So in your opinion, every single job you've posted here is a direct result of Brexit, and wouldn't have existed without it? Or are you just acting like some hyperbolic Tory PR outlet, where we're supposed to celebrate every new job being created (while ignoring the jobs being lost, the hardships being suffered by others and the shitty working conditions for many)?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's the current business view on Brexit
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It's a factual response to the relentlessly negative bollocks you put up about tambourine players, etc, Mr Creative guy

That's factual jobs for 6,000 familes. One announcement, today.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a factual response to the relentlessly negative bollocks you put up about tambourine players, etc, Mr Creative guy
> 
> That's factual jobs for 6,000 familes. One announcement, today.


So you are asserting that all these jobs are being solely created because of Brexit then.  Could you explain how?


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> So in your opinion, every single job you've posted here is a direct result of Brexit, and wouldn't have existed without it? Or are you just acting like some hyperbolic Tory PR outlet, where we're supposed to celebrate every new job being created (while ignoring the jobs being lost, the hardships being suffered by others and the shitty working conditions for many)?



The sad part is that "lol, fuck your stupid fake job, loser" is probably official Conservative Party policy.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Here's some more facts. From today:









						Tory MPs who hyped Brexit fishing benefits have abandoned us, fishermen say
					

National Federation of Fisherman’s Organisations says European Research Group have gone ‘very quiet’ on issue




					www.independent.co.uk
				












						David Frost admits Brexit has made it ‘too much trouble’ for firms to trade with Northern Ireland
					

It’s ‘reasonable’ for British firms to give up, says deal negotiator – adding, ‘They decide it’s just not worth it’




					www.independent.co.uk
				








__





						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				




And from the last 24 hours









						'Devastating': Crops left to rot in England as Brexit begins to bite
					

Brexit -- the effects of which kicked in at the start of the year -- means hiring migrant pickers from eastern Europe is now much harder.




					www.euronews.com
				












						EU academics are doing their research… and they don’t like the look of post-Brexit Britain
					

Attracting academics from the EU to the UK has become challenging because of #Brexit – and it’s vital we adapt to avoid getting left behind in science and technology. Much has been made of the brain drain to Europe. Recent data from the Higher Education Statistics Agency showed that more...




					www.fenews.co.uk
				












						Government legal bills leap by 27% due to Brexit
					

Government legal bills have surged to a four-year high, with Brexit driving a billing bonanza for City law firms advising Whitehall, research has revealed.Over




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				




Go wave your flag to that lot.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> It's a factual response to the relentlessly negative bollocks you put up about tambourine players, etc, Mr Creative guy
> 
> That's factual jobs for 6,000 familes. One announcement, today.


I'm not saying it's not wonderful, but it appears to be a speculative planning application with no money behind it, rather than "factual jobs".


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> So you are asserting that all these jobs are being solely created because of Brexit then.  Could you explain how?



Here's merely copying the continuity remain loons who post on here and claim that every job lost or bottle of Gin unsold is a direct result of voting to leave. Both sides have got their crank fringe.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's some more facts. From today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


could you explain the nature and relevance of your links as per the faq? i'm not sure which of the facts in the reports you link to are the ones you're trying to share with us.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Smokeandsteam said:


> Here's merely copying the continuity remain loons who post on here and claim that every job lost or bottle of Gin unsold is a direct result of voting to leave. Both sides have got their crank fringe.


Sorry, who has done that? Could you give some examples?

From my own personal experience, Brexit has indeed fucked me over although I know the concerns of the 'jingle writers' and 'tambourine players' (i.e. the music industry) are quick to be dismissed and belittled here.

Oh and what's a 'continuity remain loon'?


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> could you explain the nature and relevance of your links as per the faq? i'm not sure which of the facts in the reports you link to are the ones you're trying to share with us.
> View attachment 278586



Good job I added both words and context to those links, you woefully backfiring smartarse.   😂  

But feel free to report the post and see how far you get with the other mods.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Sorry, who has done that? Could you give some examples?



There is an entire thread full of it on here. Every job loss, the stats from food and drunk bosses. I am sure you know the one...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Good job I added both words and context to those links, you woefully backfiring smartarse.   😂


yes, you added some words. which explain neither the nature nor the relevancy of the links. and you say nothing here of which facts in those links are the ones you wish to share. indeed, a lot of your links aren't facts (which are things by definition true) but opinion, eg that the erg have abandoned the fishermen.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, you added some words. which explain neither the nature nor the relevancy of the links. and you say nothing here of which facts in those links are the ones you wish to share. indeed, a lot of your links aren't facts (which are things by definition true) but opinion, eg that the erg have abandoned the fishermen.


By Christ, I hope I never get as bored as you must be. There is nothing wrong with my post. It is completely on topic and an entirely reasonable counterpoint to the post I was responding to. And to stop this thread being dragged off topic with your dull pedantry and being needlessly disrupted further, I'm going to ignore you for a few hours. So there really is no need for you to have the last word, although you are free to report the post to the mods.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> By Christ, I hope I never get as bored as you must be. There is nothing wrong with my post. It is completely on topic and an entirely reasonable counterpoint to the post I was responding to. And to stop this thread being dragged off topic with your dull pedantry and being needlessly disrupted further, I'm going to ignore you for a few hours. So there really is no need for you to have the last word, although you are free to report the post to the mods.


what post were you responding to?

i hope i never descend to the depths where posting up a shedload of articles takes the place of being able to cobble together an actual argument.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 15, 2021)

Government legal bills leap by 27% due to Brexit
					

Government legal bills have surged to a four-year high, with Brexit driving a billing bonanza for City law firms advising Whitehall, research has revealed.Over




					www.thetimes.co.uk
				






> bonanza for City law firms


  

This was the City that the anarchists and anti-capitalists here were fretting Brexit would kill off. I'm sure their share portfolios will be be relieved to see they were wrong on that score.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Government legal bills leap by 27% due to Brexit
> 
> 
> Government legal bills have surged to a four-year high, with Brexit driving a billing bonanza for City law firms advising Whitehall, research has revealed.Over
> ...


Who do you think pays for those increased legal bills in the end? Or is some whataboutery about anti capitalist protests in 1999 the main thing here for you?



> Whitehall’s legal costs leapt by 27 per cent to more than £237 million over the past year. Last year was the highest expenditure as the UK left the bloc, with the second highest in 2016-17, the year of the referendum vote on membership.
> 
> Researchers attributed the rising expenditure of taxpayer funds to lawyers as the result of “administrative changes resulting from the UK leaving the EU”.



And that _'bonanza for city law firms_' that you're giving the thumbs up to is entirely due to Brexit. Great to see that you're so happy for them.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 15, 2021)

Here is a link to an interview with John Bruton former Taoiseach of the Republic of Ireland and EU Ambassador to Washington.
I would imagine in terms of trade round and about he is influential, although maybe not totally across car battery plants in the UK post 'brexit'.
However judging by the tone of the article Loose meat might be heartened to contemplate all the border and security jobs that might be created due to the monumentally damaging Tory continuing policy in Ireland.
It also gives his take on the mindset of those driving 'brexit' in relation to the UK, because Northern Ireland is supposed to be the UK at the moment. Isn't it?
I know I reference the Irish border from time to time, it remains an issue that to me is both symbolic, and practical in terms of what 'leave' means. I will be criticised for mentioning it again as is the nature of this site, but maybe Loose meat has an as yet unrevealed workable solution.
It is still a mess, and no amount of car battery plants in little England will resolve the mess.






__





						John Bruton: UK ministers need to read the NI protocol they signed
					






					www.irishtimes.com
				




Edit, interview dated July 7th 2021


----------



## MrSki (Jul 15, 2021)

This could prove tricky with new trade deals if conditions are in place that UK must honour its current treaties.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 15, 2021)

Raheem said:


> I'm not saying it's not wonderful, but it appears to be a speculative planning application with no money behind it, rather than "factual jobs".



well, kind of. It does say this in the very first para. If Coventry are going to turn down their own planing applications we might as well all jump off the imaginary Brexit cliff. clutching tambourines:



> A planning application for a new battery gigafactory situated at Coventry Airport has been submitted by a newly formed joint venture partnership between* Coventry City Council* and Coventry Airport.


----------



## belboid (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> but won't someone think of road managers >>



I was reading about this this morning. Oddly enough, it has nothing to do with brexit, there is nothing in this proposal that would have been impossible within the EU. If you want to show that Brexit has been good for manufacturing you'll need to show more than 'investment hasn't collapsed 100%' and that it has increased since pre-brexit days


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 15, 2021)

Of course it has little to do with Brexit. The world economy, climate change and decarbonisation doesn't revolve around Brexit. What it shows is that the UK isn't driving off Remoaner Starmer's much-repeated economic cliff.

I don't have to show anythng  -look at £/euro, £/$, gilt rates, low paid wage rises, unemplyment 4.7% (accepting reducing furlough), 800,000 advertised vacancies ...


----------



## belboid (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Of course it has nothing to do with Brexit. The world economy, climate change and decarbonisation doesn#t revolve around Brexit.
> 
> I don't have to show anythng  -look at £/euro, £/$, gilt rates, low paid wage rises, unemplyment 4.7% (accepting reducing furlough), 800,000 advertised vacancies ...


riiiight, so your post was....pointless.  And you DO have to show things, thats how you make an argument. Otherwise your just regurgitating someone elses vomit


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 15, 2021)

My post was a response to Mr Tambourine Man and his relentless negativity.

You, on the other hand, are a failed keyboard bully - so you can fuck off. Now, please. You sad little shit.


----------



## belboid (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> My post was a response to Mr Tambourine Man and his relentless negativity.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are a failed keyboard bully - so you can fuck off. Now, please. You sad little shit.


blimey, you're a little tetchy.  I  thought we were meant to be the ones who just threw abuse about?   It's almost as if you are making it up as you go along.


----------



## editor (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> My post was a response to Mr Tambourine Man and his relentless negativity.
> 
> You, on the other hand, are a failed keyboard bully - so you can fuck off. Now, please. You sad little shit.


I'm in the music industry. Give me a nice big list of Brexit related reasons why I - and others in the industry - should now be feeling a-quiver with positivity.

And please, calm down.


----------



## Raheem (Jul 15, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> well, kind of. It does say this in the very first para. If Coventry are going to turn down their own planing applications we might as well all jump off the imaginary Brexit cliff. clutching tambourines:


No, look at the end of the article. There's no money behind the application. They are just looking to get planning permission as a first step (or, more likely, in the hope they can convince Tesla to buy the land in a few years' time). It's just property speculation, in other words.

Always, always check your notes.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 15, 2021)

MrSki said:


> This could prove tricky with new trade deals if conditions are in place that UK must honour its current treaties.



Supra-state exerting a price for NZ's trade deal.
Crafty.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 15, 2021)

editor said:


> Here's some more facts. From today:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think they're so much into _waving _flags as shagging them. Or maybe having a #craftywank over one.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> No, look at the end of the article. There's no money behind the application. They are just looking to get planning permission as a first step (or, more likely, in the hope they can convince Tesla to buy the land in a few years' time). It's just property speculation, in other words.



This is the same site - the airport, so maybe there is a plan.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 16, 2021)

Relentless posting of the social media output of capital's propaganda arms; what I come to Urban for.


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm in the music industry. Give me a nice big list of Brexit related reasons why I - and others in the industry - should now be feeling a-quiver with positivity.


Still waiting Loose meat 

You must have _something_ in your state propaganda file, no?


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 16, 2021)

hang on, are there two threads on Brexit >>>>


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 16, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Relentless posting of the social media output of capital's propaganda arms; what I come to Urban for.



Lamenting when capital feels pain seem to be the sole purpose of these threads, is that why you come here?


----------



## gosub (Jul 16, 2021)

editor said:


> So in your opinion, every single job you've posted here is a direct result of Brexit, and wouldn't have existed without it? Or are you just acting like some hyperbolic Tory PR outlet, where we're supposed to celebrate every new job being created (while ignoring the jobs being lost, the hardships being suffered by others and the shitty working conditions for many)?


Nope those jobs a result of some interesting litium finds in Cornwall and Batteries' made here being awarded pretty much Single Market status (well in comparison to those made in Asia anyway)


----------



## brogdale (Jul 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Lamenting when capital feels pain seem to be the sole purpose of these threads, is that why you come here?


Nah, I only sing when the oppo is losing.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> hang on, are there two threads on Brexit >>>>



Filled with corporate shills, of late, strangely enough.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Filled with corporate shills, of late, strangely enough.


Can’t get enough of updates from Sainsbury’s at the mo


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Can’t get enough of updates from Sainsbury’s at the mo



On the edge of the seat stuff, for sure


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> On the edge of the seat stuff, for sure


Surprised their server hasn’t crashed with millions flicking to check on the petit pois situation


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Surprised their server hasn’t crashed with millions flicking to check on the petit pois situation



Who needs microscopic embryonic peas anyway, FFS?


----------



## spitfire (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Who needs microscopic embryonic peas anyway, FFS?



Me! Going to take the delivery driver hostage until they send some over.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Who needs microscopic embryonic peas anyway, FFS?


They are lovely. A lot more tasty than bullet peas.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

spitfire said:


> Me! Going to take the delivery driver hostage until they send some over.



Petit pois bourgeois


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

MrSki said:


> They are lovely. A lot more tasty than bullet peas.



That's what they want you to think


----------



## Raheem (Jul 16, 2021)

If it comes to it, I'll just make my own petits pois by forcing marrowfats through a sieve.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If it comes to it, I'll just make my own petits pois by forcing marrowfats through a sieve.



Making the peas kind of mushy.

This could catch on.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 16, 2021)

Raheem said:


> If it comes to it, I'll just make my own petits pois by forcing marrowfats through a sieve.


When I said there were no petit pois in Sainsbury's a few weeks ago I also said there were no peas of any sort or frozen beans for that matter.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 16, 2021)

MrSki said:


> When I said there were no petit pois in Sainsbury's a few weeks ago I also said there were no peas of any sort or frozen beans for that matter.



Nobody really eats them, anyway. No big loss.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 16, 2021)

krtek a houby said:


> Nobody really eats them, anyway. No big loss.



Nobody does anymore that's for sure.


----------



## spitfire (Jul 16, 2021)

My Sainsbury's delivery just arrived sans petits pois. I remonstrated with the young man and expressed my displeasure.

He said, "fuck off you middle class tiny pea eating cunt."

I laughed, he laughed, we all went down the pub for a pint of rosie lea.

I can also confirm that there is no shortage of Peroni and 6 bottles (large) of MC Stella currently in the fridge to help me through the rest of my isolation.

Saluti!


----------



## editor (Jul 16, 2021)

Brexit continues to deliver:



> Over half of British haulage firms have already made or are considering moving some operations into the EU due to a "perfect storm" of post-Brexit red tape impacts and driver shortages still hitting the sector, a new report has found.
> Haulage Exchange, a company that provides technology for the logistics industry, polled management at 16 of the UK's largest haulage companies with operations in Europe.
> The survey revealed that ongoing border delays, driver shortages, and increased admin time and costs are all major challenges being faced by firms in the sector.
> 
> ...











						Over half UK hauliers considering EU ops move post-Brexit, study finds
					

Haulage Exchange, a company that provides technology for the logistics industry, polled management at 16 of the UK's largest haulage companies for the report




					www.standard.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jul 17, 2021)

I dug for victory and grew my own peas.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 17, 2021)

ah yes: "considering moving". Them and the bankers.

"some operations" - might that be the £10 an hour cross-channel jobbies those guys with a tractor license in Bulgaria are up for (minimum wage, about £3.40 now?)


----------



## andysays (Jul 17, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I dug for victory and grew my own peas.


Now that's what I call creative **


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 19, 2021)

toblerone3 said:


> Regarding the coat from Canada. Yes the duty is clearly due to Brexit. Both the courier and the supplier are explicitly saying both the delays and the import charges are due to Brexit and with the supply chain involving shipment via Frankfurt and Cologne there is a plausible reason for it to be related to Brexit.
> 
> Why do you not believe this?   Why do you think being charged import duty on a coat is normal. It is not and _eventually _the supplier Arcteryx did actually refund the import duties.  Why would they do that if its just_ normal?_
> 
> I suppose the next thing is that you will have to accept that you were wrong it is due to Brexit but then go on to just echo the government's line that it is just "teething troubles".



Good news!

I received this from Arc'teryx this morning.



It's a jacket, purchased on their website and, as you can see, shipped from Germany via UPS.

The delivery bloke just asked me to sign his machine, wished me good day, and I wasn't asked for a penny more in duty.

It also arrived just 3 working days after I ordered it.

Weird eh?


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

Some interesting stuff here



> “No-one on Earth” knows whether Brexit was a good idea for Britain, the driving force behind the Vote Leave campaign has admitted.
> 
> Dominic Cummings, who went on to mastermind Boris Johnson’s election victory on a “get Brexit done” platform, said that he personally regards EU withdrawal as “a good thing” but admitted it could have been “a mistake”.





> What about Vote Leave lawbreaking?​Thread here from Carole Cadwalladr from _The Observer _asking how Cummings was able to make it all the way through the hour-long interview with Laura Kuenssberg without being asked about illegal spending by Vote Leave during the Brexit campaign.
> The leave campaign, which Cummings was at the reins of, was found to have broken legal spending limits by donating several hundreds of thousands of pounds to an affiliate pro-Brexit group days before the EU referendum in 2016.
> Ms Cadwalladr helped expose the law-breaking, which led to the Vote Leave campaign being fined £61,000 by the Electoral Commission











						Dominic Cummings admits Brexit may have been ‘mistake’  - follow live
					

Follow the latest updates from Westminster and beyond




					www.independent.co.uk
				




And the clusterfucks continue:



> UK sets collision course with EU under plans to redraw Brexit deal​
> The UK will on Wednesday put itself on a collision course with Brussels by unveiling a new set of demands that would radically overhaul post-Brexit trading arrangements between Great Britain and Northern Ireland. In a move that officials called a “wholesale change of approach”, Lord David Frost, Cabinet Office minister, will outline a strategy that seeks to eliminate most of the checks on the Irish Sea trade border that came into force in January. And in a warning that Britain could suspend the Northern Ireland protocol in its Brexit deal with the EU if the bloc does not give way, Frost will claim the UK is already within its rights to activate the Article 16 override clause in the agreement.








						Subscribe to read | Financial Times
					

News, analysis and comment from the Financial Times, the worldʼs leading global business publication




					www.ft.com
				












						Brexit row over Gibraltar escalates as UK accuses EU of undermining British sovereignty
					

Rocky start to talks amid concerns Spain wants to extend sovereignty over territory




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

The reason for the shortage of HGV drivers, according to the Guardian: 


> They say the shortage of drivers can only be fixed if EU drivers are allowed back in the country.   It estimates a shortage of 90,000 HGV drivers including an estimate 25,000 EU truckers who have gone home following Brexit. On top of that there is a backlog of 25,000 applications for trucker driving licences.



HGV licence fast-track won’t stop UK food shortages, industry warns | Transport policy | The Guardian


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)

An interesting twitter account to follow regarding food distribution.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 21, 2021)

Several nasty lorry accidents on motorways in the last couple of weeks, got to wonder what the circumstances were regarding them. very dangerous for everybody


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

The joy of empty claims on the internet; 14 hours drivig becomes 9 1/2 in two tweets.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> The joy of empty claims on the internet; 14 hours drivig becomes 9 1/2 in two tweets.


A 14 hour shift. In case you didn't know lorry drivers are limited in the hours they are legally allowed to drive for safety reasons. This has been extended to help with the shortage which might not be a good idea if accidents increase.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

I know exactly what he was doing, and once the dumb fool realised his claim was illegal he withdrew it. Totally internet.


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

doubley


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 21, 2021)

Lorry driver hours have been de restricted. So now a 14 hour shift is not illegal.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> I know exactly what he was doing, and once the dumb fool realised his claim was illegal he withdrew it. Totally internet.


I don't know if you're _trying _to come over as an agenda-driven, inflexible cunt, but if you are, you're doing a fine job of it. If you're not, then I would suggest suing your keyboard for defamation.


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 21, 2021)

Hear that noise? that's the sound of someone doing their own research


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Please 'like' the above insights. Let's get these valued contributors off to a flying start today.


----------



## Spymaster (Jul 21, 2021)

existentialist said:


> I don't know if you're _trying _to come over as an agenda-driven, inflexible cunt, but if you are, you're doing a fine job of it.


He’s hardly the only one!


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

Aww nobody liking your posts Loose meat ? Diddums


----------



## Loose meat (Jul 21, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Lorry driver hours have been de restricted. So now a 14 hour shift is not illegal.


Well this is a cracker. Are you sure it's not 20 hours shifts? Maybe it is, maybe the whole country is at risk from zombie death  drivers. I'm sure the folks here will have all the detail-free internet anecdotes.


----------



## existentialist (Jul 21, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> He’s hardly the only one!


No, he's not. But he's a bit more simplistic, transparent, and easily caught out than most...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

Loosening drivers hours regs is a very big risk.


----------



## MrSki (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## NoXion (Jul 21, 2021)

editor said:


> The reason for the shortage of HGV drivers, according to the Guardian:
> 
> 
> HGV licence fast-track won’t stop UK food shortages, industry warns | Transport policy | The Guardian



Of course the truck companies say that letting EU drivers back in is the "only" option. They're the fucking bosses, _of course_ they don't want to shell out any more money if they can help it at all.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

Lidl being arseholes 



> Lidl shoppers could feel the effects of the country’s lorry driver shortage more than most this week because of a “boycott” by haulage firms.
> 
> The UK is experiencing a severe shortage of HGV drivers with Brexit, changes to the tax system and a large backlog of driving tests caused by the pandemic contributing to an estimated shortfall of 100,000.
> 
> ...











						Lorry drivers 'boycott' Lidl for being inflexible over staff shortages and delivery delays
					

Brexit, tax changes and driving test delays have left the UK with a severe driver shortage - and it's impacting retailers in different ways




					inews.co.uk


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Loose meat said:


> Please 'like' the above insights. Let's get these valued contributors off to a flying start today.



You seem overly concerned with "likes".

Are you feeling undervalued?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 21, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Hear that noise? that's the sound of someone doing their own research



It's the sound of notes being shuffled


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

MrSki said:


>



They assume anyone listened to the git in the first place.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

editor said:


> Lidl being arseholes
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am doing big late night Lidl shop tomorrow. I will report on shortages.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I am doing big late night Lidl shop tomorrow. I will report on shortages.


They're short of at least one vowel in their stupid company name


----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> They're short of at least one vowel in their stupid company name


How dare you. I love Lidl like some adore Waitrose.


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> How dare you. I love Lidl like some adore Waitrose.


I like their stuff, but the name grates every time I read it or hear it. Especially when used as a jokey replacement for 'little'


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

I love Lidl and I adore Waitrose when there's any yellow labels. Mind you, that goes for any other retail corp as well!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Of course the truck companies say that letting EU drivers back in is the "only" option. They're the fucking bosses, _of course_ they don't want to shell out any more money if they can help it at all.







> It estimates a shortage of 90,000 HGV drivers including an estimate 25,000 EU truckers who have gone home following Brexit. On top of that there is a backlog of 25,000 applications for trucker driving licences.



25,000 drivers returned to Europe and 25,000 applications from UK people wanting to become HGV drivers. There's a certain neatness to all this.


----------



## Maltin (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> 25,000 drivers returned to Europe and 25,000 applications from UK people wanting to become HGV drivers. There's a certain neatness to all this.


Except would still leaves a shortage of 65,000 drivers.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

Maltin said:


> Except would still leaves a shortage of 65,000 drivers.



A jobs bonanza.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> A jobs bonanza.


A job only exists if an employer can find someone able and willing to do it at the wage offered.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> A job only exists if an employer can find someone able and willing to do it at the wage offered.




And if they can't, what options do they have?


----------



## Maltin (Jul 21, 2021)

I did also read in one of the articles that the driver shortage is acting as a cover for wider supply problems so even if they did miraculously manage to fill 90,000 jobs quickly, product shortages would still likely continue.


----------



## Maltin (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And if they can't, what options do they have?


We all starve?


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And if they can't, what options do they have?


Re-invest accumulated profit into paying for training, raising wages, lobbying the 'government' for some exemption like the fruit farmers, downsize their business, sell-up, go bust....but I'm no expert on these matters.


----------



## Flavour (Jul 21, 2021)

Should I move back to the UK and become a truck driver? sort of tempting tbh


----------



## Jeremiah18.17 (Jul 21, 2021)

The problem for most people wishing to become truck drivers is the cost. To get licensed for class one and two usually requires taking out a mahoosive loan if you haven’t got a lot of savings. Then there has been the problem of getting work to pay back the cost - companies in the past often stipulated “experienced drivers only” . People used to join the forces to get logistics licences and experience in the past.  Another route was auxiliary fire service work (which people in e.g. mining industry used to do to get licensed so they could move into transport industry). I understand the situation is a little better now because of the shortage of drivers, but some companies still put obstacles in the way of the newly qualified.
Don’t get me started on how the UK Govt and local authorities treat drivers as regards parking up, facilities etc, or the crap terms and conditions in parts of the transport industry with lower levels of union organising......


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Jeremiah18.17 said:


> The problem for most people wishing to become truck drivers is the cost. To get licensed for class one and two usually requires taking out a mahoosive loan if you haven’t got a lot of savings. Then there has been the problem of getting work to pay back the cost - companies in the past often stipulated “experienced drivers only” . People used to join the forces to get logistics licences and experience in the past.  Another route was auxiliary fire service work (which people in e.g. mining industry used to do to get licensed so they could move into transport industry). I understand the situation is a little better now because of the shortage of drivers, but some companies still put obstacles in the way of the newly qualified.
> Don’t get me started on how the UK Govt and local authorities treat drivers as regards parking up, facilities etc, or the crap terms and conditions in parts of the transport industry with lower levels of union organising......


Yep, when capital shirks the costs of training its own workers it can't really complain when people decline the opportunity to subside their bottom line.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

Running rings around the desperate Lewis, Frost & co.


----------



## Yossarian (Jul 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Of course the truck companies say that letting EU drivers back in is the "only" option. They're the fucking bosses, _of course_ they don't want to shell out any more money if they can help it at all.



Yep, treating the EU as the solution to all Britain's problems is as dumb as treating it like the underlying cause - there was a massive driver shortage both in the UK and EU countries years before Brexit and COVID. They could maybe fix it with a massive investment in attracting more young people and women to the profession and improving pay, conditions, facilities, etc., but they'll probably just spend the money investing in self-driving trucks instead.


----------



## editor (Jul 21, 2021)

What could possibly go wrong?









						UK says it wants to substantially rewrite Northern Ireland Brexit protocol
					

Blueprint for alternative arrangement published as sources say protocol was flawed at conception




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Running rings around the desperate Lewis, Frost & co.



Well talk loud and carry a big stick until the inevitable EU fudge as they have done with every ‘crisis’ in implementing the Brexit agreement .


----------



## TopCat (Jul 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I like their stuff, but the name grates every time I read it or hear it. Especially when used as a jokey replacement for 'little'


Just rid your life of people who do the latter.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 21, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Well talk loud and carry a big stick until the inevitable EU fudge as they have done with every ‘crisis’ in implementing the Brexit agreement .


Today's line from the supra state is that the fudge can only been made _within the red lines _of the agreed international treaty.
Can't see why they'd say anything other than that to the blustercunts.


----------



## andysays (Jul 21, 2021)

Just had my bi-weekly Sainsburys delivery, and one of my regular boxes of Belvita Breakfast Biscuits was unavailable and has been substituted with a box of a different flavour of biscuits 

#Brexitageddon


----------



## two sheds (Jul 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Just rid your life of people who do the latter.


ladr


----------



## glitch hiker (Jul 21, 2021)

editor said:


> What could possibly go wrong?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uk wants to farm unicorns


----------



## mojo pixy (Jul 21, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Just rid your life of people who do the latter.


But Lidl do it themselves 
It's more than a lidl annoying


----------



## editor (Jul 22, 2021)

Well, this is awkward:



> The EU Commission president tweeted: “Boris Johnson called to present the UK Command paper on the Irish/Northern Irish Protocol. The EU will continue to be creative and flexible within the Protocol framework. But we will not renegotiate.”











						EU will not renegotiate Northern Ireland Protocol – follow Brexit live
					

Follow the latest updates from Westminster and beyond




					www.independent.co.uk
				



And then there's this:



> Recruiters say they have watched the number of available workers dry up because of restrictions on free movement imposed under the UK Government’s Brexit plans.
> 
> One said they had seen nothing like it in two decades, while another said some sectors were suffering more than others.
> 
> Nationally there has already been a big shortage of HGV drivers – partly due to European drivers heading home during the pandemic and now feeling that Brexit will make their return harder.











						Recruitment firms: ‘EU workers have left and aren’t returning'
					

Warnings include suggestions that 60 per cent of vegetable packers have said they’re leaving or left




					www.business-live.co.uk


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

Tesco put their hand in their pocket to recruit lorry drivers. Excellent news and I hope it becomes a sector norm. 








						Tesco offers lorry drivers £1,000 signing-on fee due to shortage
					

The effects of Brexit, Covid and tax changes have led to competition for workers between UK supermarkets




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Tesco put their hand in their pocket to recruit lorry drivers. Excellent news and I hope it becomes a sector norm.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


They're not putting their hands very far in their pockets.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> They're not putting their hands very far in their pockets.


A thousand quid is not insubstantial.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> A thousand quid is not insubstantial.


About 5/8 of a month's (gross) wages. Be better if they said ~£10.50 an hour isn't enough and we'll start our drivers pay at £15 from now on. Yeh a grand is nice but Tesco's are filthy rich and could easily afford rather more.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Fantastic,  Penguin Cafe are playing in Lisbon and Porto in November . I could double that up with a tour of the artisan beer micro breweries.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Fantastic,  Penguin Cafe are playing in Lisbon and Porto in November . I could double that up with a tour of the artisan beer micro breweries.



Turn up with a South Georgia new homes for the rich poster and confuse the fuck out of them


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Fantastic,  Penguin Cafe are playing in Lisbon and Porto in November . I could double that up with a tour of the artisan beer micro breweries.



Nice to see a British band touring Europe. They said it couldn't be done...


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2021)

much easier for penguins to get visas


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> much easier for penguins to get visas


Lots of work in zoos at the moment


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2021)

The border issues continue with the EU yet again being generous with the time they allow the UK to renegotiate the protocol already negotiated and agreed. That was news yesterday over five years since Brexit voters deliberately voted to leave, but voted with no regard to the situation in Ireland.
The issue is really about two different systems side by side with a land border in Ireland a special feature. When will exit voters especially tell us the solution they had in mind for that border?
Any variation on ‘I voted strategically in order to bring about a United Ireland, and that was in the forefront of my mind when in the polling booth’ is disingenuous lying bollocks in my mind.
Lexiters got firmly and deeply into bed with the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel and others and no amount of backsliding revisionist equivocation changes that.
Go on Lexit voters, there is a 300 ish mile land border between the two different systems you created, with over 200 crossing points, and people who inhabit property spanning the border…sort that one out.
Cue a personal attack on me for mentioning it…again.
Good way of wriggling out of responsibility for the mess Lexiters created.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

philosophical said:


> The border issues continue with the EU yet again being generous with the time they allow the UK to renegotiate the protocol already negotiated and agreed. That was news yesterday over five years since Brexit voters deliberately voted to leave, but voted with no regard to the situation in Ireland.
> The issue is really about two different systems side by side with a land border in Ireland a special feature. When will exit voters especially tell us the solution they had in mind for that border?
> Any variation on ‘I voted strategically in order to bring about a United Ireland, and that was in the forefront of my mind when in the polling booth’ is disingenuous lying bollocks in my mind.
> Lexiters got firmly and deeply into bed with the likes of Rees Mogg and Patel and others and no amount of backsliding revisionist equivocation changes that.
> ...


I’m just smiling reading your latest post.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2021)




----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

philosophical said:


> View attachment 280983


Wow, your meme just opened my eyes to my failings.


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2021)




----------



## existentialist (Jul 28, 2021)

Well, that got passive-aggressive quickly...


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

philosophical said:


> View attachment 281000


Who is this?


----------



## TopCat (Jul 28, 2021)

Both memes have the same font. Did you make them yourself philosophical ?


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Nice to see a British band touring Europe. They said it couldn't be done...


Who said that no British bands could tour Europe play two dates in Portugal, any more?


It's never been a problem for the more well established bands.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Nice to see a British band touring Europe. They said it couldn't be done...





editor said:


> It's never been a problem for the more well established bands.


Yes they’ve got a cult profile mainly aided by the Penguin Cafe Orchestra legacy . They are good in their own but benefit from the lineage .


----------



## philosophical (Jul 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both memes have the same font. Did you make them yourself philosophical ?


Question time is it?
Did you vote leave?
If you did, what solution did you have in mind for the land border on the island of Ireland with two different systems on either side?


----------



## two sheds (Jul 28, 2021)

> Yes they’ve got a cult profile mainly aided by the Penguin Cafe Orchestra legacy . They are good in their own but benefit from the lineage .



I was looking at them thinking "you're never in your 60s "


----------



## gosub (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> About 5/8 of a month's (gross) wages. Be better if they said ~£10.50 an hour isn't enough and we'll start our drivers pay at £15 from now on. Yeh a grand is nice but Tesco's are filthy rich and could easily afford rather more.


every little helps.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

two sheds said:


> I was looking at them thinking "you're never in your 60s "


I think the originals still play now and again but they might not make the flight here


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

Actually I spent a good morning looking for a Penguin Cafe artwork poster last week. Really interesting if bizarre art work on their original albums designed by the woman who was the subject of ‘See Emily play’ by Pink Floyd .


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Nice to see a British band touring Europe. They said it couldn't be done...




People will sneer that this isn't a real tour.


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> People will sneer that this isn't a real tour.


Two dates in one single country isn't a 'European tour.' Not even for a stylist or a celebrity.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> People will sneer that this isn't a real tour.



In fact they'll be right snobby cunts about it and mock the creative's work in arranging anything in these Covid times. The same kind of cunts that think a few dates in Germany equates to a European tour.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 28, 2021)

editor said:


> Two dates in one single country isn't a 'European tour.' Not even for a stylist or a celebrity.


I’m not bothered if it’s a tour or not , I like them , I’m pleased that they are over here .


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I’m not bothered if it’s a tour or not , I like them , I’m pleased that they are over here .


I'm delighted for you, honestly. And I'm happy the band  have managed to make it work as it's really not easy.


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> In fact they'll be right snobby cunts about it and mock the creative's work in arranging anything in these Covid times. The same kind of cunts that think a few dates in Germany equates to a European tour.


Sorry, who are you going on about here? And why?


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Both memes have the same font. Did you make them yourself philosophical ?


I'd just like to say that in fact they don't use the same font or even typeface.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 29, 2021)

Did we have this?








						Labour must say it out loud: Brexit needs to be reversed
					

In Northern Ireland, the Leavers’ folly is now manifest. How can the opposition stay silent about the root cause of the crisis?




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Did we have this?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jesus died for somebody's sins but not mine


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 29, 2021)

18 months when you have seen major changes in the economic consensus - the FED, the FT, the ECB, the IMF all now convinced that state investment is not only desirable but required, and all this prick can talk about is the UK leaving the EU.


----------



## editor (Jul 29, 2021)

Brexit has cost Lambeth taxpayers around £200,000









						Lambeth Council to spend extra £196,000 on Windrush Square bollards because of Brexit price hike
					

Lambeth Council is to spend an extra £196,847 to complete the security bollards that are being installed around Windrush Square.



					www.brixtonbuzz.com


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit has cost Lambeth taxpayers around £200,000
> 
> 
> 
> ...


“Labour Cllr Linda Bray abstained as she thought she was taking part in a training session. She admitted she hadn’t read the Council report.”

Jesus 😂


----------



## wemakeyousoundb (Jul 29, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit has cost Lambeth taxpayers around £200,000
> 
> 
> 
> ...


they should just keep the concrete blocks, at least you can sit on those.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 30, 2021)

Ten thousand pounds per bollard.


----------



## andysays (Jul 30, 2021)

editor said:


> Brexit has cost Lambeth taxpayers around £200,000
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think that should probably say "Lambeth Council blame Brexit for cost increases" TBH.

Had Brexit really damaged your critical faculties so much that you're reduced to churning out this stuff unthinkingly?


----------



## editor (Jul 30, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think that should probably say "Lambeth Council blame Brexit for cost increases" TBH.
> 
> Had Brexit really damaged your critical faculties so much that you're reduced to churning out this stuff unthinkingly?


I'm sorry that the news doesn't fit your political narrative, but insulting me won't change that.


----------



## gosub (Jul 30, 2021)

editor said:


> I'm sorry that the news doesn't fit your political narrative, but insulting me won't change that.


I'd probably have gone with fear of homicidal nutters costs Lambeth 1.5 mil


----------



## TopCat (Jul 31, 2021)

“ James Reed, chairman of Reed, one of the UK's biggest recruitment sites, told Radio 4's PM programme that pay for jobs in hospitality and catering had gone up 18% on the jobs advertised on their sites, and 14% for all jobs paying £25,000 or less.
No wonder people have suggested that in a post-Brexit, post-Covid world, worker power is back.”









						Employee shortages: Where have all the workers gone?
					

From hospitality to road haulage, firms say they can't get staff. So are employees now calling the shots?



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> I think that should probably say "Lambeth Council blame Brexit for cost increases" TBH.
> 
> Had Brexit really damaged your critical faculties so much that you're reduced to churning out this stuff unthinkingly?


Tbh it's very likely these measures wouldn't have been needed if different decisions had been made at various times over the past 20 years around Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria abroad and responses to sept 11, 7/7 and so on here. The landscape of cities has changed from promoting a convivial atmosphere in public spaces to landscapes of defence. There was a post recently about a little kid in America who'd been at or near two shootings and said she always expected something to happen. To my mind bollards to prevent vehicle terrorist attacks are at least as sad be they these bollards or the barriers on London bridges or the walls on Whitehall: or the barriers outside parliament which divide MPs from the public they affect to serve. Millions upon millions has been spent on these measures - which only serve to emphasise how much politicians still have to do to make not only their foreign policies but domestic policies ethical. But under neither labour nor Tory parties have they ever really tried. Which is why vast sums are spent one things like this while everyone remains under siege.


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Tbh it's very likely these measures wouldn't have been needed if different decisions had been made at various times over the past 20 years around Iraq, Afghanistan, Syria abroad and responses to sept 11, 7/7 and so on here. The landscape of cities has changed from promoting a convivial atmosphere in public spaces to landscapes of defence. There was a post recently about a little kid in America who'd been at or near two shootings and said she always expected something to happen. To my mind bollards to prevent vehicle terrorist attacks are at least as sad be they these bollards or the barriers on London bridges or the walls on Whitehall: or the barriers outside parliament which divide MPs from the public they affect to serve. Millions upon millions has been spent on these measures - which only serve to emphasise how much politicians still have to do to make not only their foreign policies but domestic policies ethical. But under neither labour nor Tory parties have they ever really tried. Which is why vast sums are spent one things like this while everyone remains under siege.


This is all true, but I think the immediate point of the story is supposed to be that the cost of the bollards has gone up. This has been blamed by Lambeth Council on the price going up as a result of Brexit., and this claim has been quoted as fact by editor without examination, presumably because it's "handy" and fits his anti-Brexit position.

It's almost as if projects like this have never been subject to cost rises prior to Brexit, or that those responsible have never looked around for ways to avoid taking any of the blame themselves...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is all true, but I think the immediate point of the story is supposed to be that the cost of the bollards has gone up, and this has been blamed by Lambeth Council on the price going up as a result of Brexit., and this claim has been quoted as fact by editor without examination, presumably because it's "handy" and fits his anti-Brexit position.
> 
> It's almost as if projects like this have never been subject to cost rises prior to Brexit, or that those responsible have never looked around for ways to avoid taking any of the blame themselves...


Oh yeh on those levels you're quite right. But that these bollards were thought necessary in the first place is in large measure down to many many years of government policies


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh yeh on those levels you're quite right. But that these bollards were thought necessary in the first place is in large measure down to many many years of government policies


Sorry mate, this is the big Brexit thread, we don't want any of your historical perspective and nuance here, kindly take them elsewhere.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> Sorry mate, this is the big Brexit thread, we don't want any of your historical perspective and nuance here, kindly take them elsewhere.


Yeh shallow ill-informed burble here


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh shallow ill-informed burble here


And especially no references to issues which existed during the prelapsarian times before Brexit


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

and on the other side no references to issues that were actually caused by Brexit  .


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> and on the other side no references to issues that were actually caused by Brexit  .


I'm not up with the world of steel , could you explain what the impact of Brexit was on steel prices?


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> and on the other side no references to issues that were actually caused by Brexit  .


It's true, a few people are doing that.

But from my perspective it seems more common on these threads for Remainers to claim Brexit as the sole cause, and then get upset when asked to justify their claim.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> I'm not up with the world of steel , could you explain what the impact of Brexit was on steel prices?


I have a similar level of expertise as yourself


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's true, a few people are doing that.
> 
> But from my perspective it seems more common on these threads for Remainers to claim Brexit as the sole cause, and then get upset when asked to justify their claim.


Ah but if you're a brexiter then you'll notice those more and not-notice those on the other side.

Eta and you won't notice other brexiters getting upset because you'll have some sympathy with their view. 

I don't dress one side or the other and I have no clue which side is doing it more because that would normally need quite a thorough study of each issue.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> This is all true, but I think the immediate point of the story is supposed to be that the cost of the bollards has gone up. This has been blamed by Lambeth Council on the price going up as a result of Brexit., and this claim has been quoted as fact by editor without examination, presumably because it's "handy" and fits his anti-Brexit position.
> 
> It's almost as if projects like this have never been subject to cost rises prior to Brexit, or that those responsible have never looked around for ways to avoid taking any of the blame themselves...


1. I didn't write the article
2. Lambeth themselves have blamed Brexit for the price rise

It's almost like you're so keen to defend Brexit that you'll try and blame others for bad news.


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> 1. I didn't write the article
> 2. Lambeth themselves have blamed Brexit for the price rise
> 
> It's almost like you're so keen to defend Brexit that you'll try and blame others for bad news.


My whole point is that you appear to have accepted without question Lambeth's claim that Brexit is to blame for the price rise, I suspect because it handily fits your anti-Brexit narrative.

I'm not seeking to blame anyone for this cost increase, some of which may indeed be linked to Brexit, I'm questioning the motives of Lambeth Council in blaming Brexit, and criticising you for simply regurgitating those claims on this thread.

Do you normally accept the pronouncements of Lambeth Council without question, or do you ever attempt to look behind what they're saying and wonder why they're saying it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> 1. I didn't write the article
> 2. Lambeth themselves have blamed Brexit for the price rise
> 
> It's almost like you're so keen to defend Brexit that you'll try and blame others for bad news.


A quick look at the price of steel shows it has risen due to covid and this report about spiralling costs on a project in hull separates steel price rises from shite from brexit Spiralling extra costs of flagship council schemes in Hull top £24m


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

This fortune article talks about the rising price of steel Steel prices are up 200%. When will the bubble pop?

Don't think brexit has really had that much impact in the USA


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> My whole point is that you appear to have accepted without question Lambeth's claim that Brexit is to blame for the price rise, I suspect because it handily fits your anti-Brexit narrative.
> 
> I'm not seeking to blame anyone for this cost increase, some of which may indeed be linked to Brexit, I'm questioning the motives of Lambeth Council in blaming Brexit, and criticising you for simply regurgitating those claims on this thread.
> 
> Do you normally accept the pronouncements of Lambeth Council without question, or do you ever attempt to look behind what they're saying and wonder why they're saying it?


Oh, that sounds mysterious.  Please elaborate on Lambeth's subterfuge and be sure to back it up with some proof rather than pro-Brexit bluster.

Meanwhile, here's proof of Brexit causing an increase in steel prices.



> However, the future is unclear as the global picture remains fluid, the company added. *Brexit and the introduction of the protoco*l have been challenging, particularly in relation to price rises for materials, demand and navigating customs.
> 
> *Quotas introduced by both the European Union and the UK* has led to an increase in prices over the last six months to the end of June.
> 
> ...











						Price explosion has building contractors staring into abyss
					

“Prices are rising at the drop of a hat, where’s it going to end?” Clive May, owner of Briar-Grove Developments, a small bricklaying business in Mold, north




					www.thetimes.co.uk


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, that sounds mysterious.  Please elaborate on Lambeth's subterfuge and be sure to back it up with some proof rather than pro-Brexit bluster.


TBH, I've got better things to do with my time than respond to your increasingly nonsensical posts.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> TBH, I've got better things to do with my time than respond to your increasingly nonsensical posts.


10/10 for the swerve. You suggested that Lambeth weren't being straightforward in their statement. So I asked you to back that up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

Anyway I am sirpri


editor said:


> Oh, that sounds mysterious.  Please elaborate on Lambeth's subterfuge and be sure to back it up with some proof rather than pro-Brexit bluster.
> 
> Meanwhile, here's proof of Brexit causing an increase in steel prices.
> 
> ...


Right.so the world wide rise in the price of steel - proved by the link in my last post - is down to brexit. Glad we have that cleared up


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> 10/10 for the swerve. You suggested that Lambeth weren't being straightforward in their statement. So I asked you to back that up.


They aren't being straight-forward in their statement


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> Oh, that sounds mysterious.  Please elaborate on Lambeth's subterfuge and be sure to back it up with some proof rather than pro-Brexit bluster.
> 
> Meanwhile, here's proof of Brexit causing an increase in steel prices.
> 
> ...


The quotas mentioned in the Belfast telegraph article have been in force for years. They are not new. UK to extend quotas and tariffs on most steel imports


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> The quotas mentioned in the Belfast telegraph article have been in force for years. They are not new. UK to extend quotas and tariffs on most steel imports


Perhaps you missed this line: "*Brexit and the introduction of the protocol* have been challenging, particularly in relation to *price rises for materials*, demand and navigating customs."


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> Perhaps you missed this line: "*Brexit and the introduction of the protocol* have been challenging, particularly in relation to *price rises for materials*, demand and navigating customs.


Perhaps you could point out where it occurs in the article in my post


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

andysays said:


> It's true, a few people are doing that.
> 
> But from my perspective it seems more common on these threads for Remainers to claim Brexit as the sole cause, and then get upset when asked to justify their claim.


Also remember that Remainers lost the vote so all of the things they hate about Brexit (whether real or imagined) are happening. You'd expect them to be more bitter. 

And again - most people on here who voted remain are on the left. And a lot of the things they're complaining about have come from cunts of tories being in power rather than left wingers voting for Brexit being responsible. 

It's lazy language from remainers when they talk about 'brexiters' being responsible for all of the shit we're getting, though. The referendum was before the 2017 election where there was a reasonable chance of a Labour government being in charge. So 'Brexiter's couldn't have totally predicted  the tories being in power.


----------



## TopCat (Jul 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> “ James Reed, chairman of Reed, one of the UK's biggest recruitment sites, told Radio 4's PM programme that pay for jobs in hospitality and catering had gone up 18% on the jobs advertised on their sites, and 14% for all jobs paying £25,000 or less.
> No wonder people have suggested that in a post-Brexit, post-Covid world, worker power is back.”
> 
> 
> ...


I’m just bumping this as it’s more important than bollards.


----------



## Poot (Jul 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m just bumping this as it’s more important than bollards.


Literally the next 2 paras after the ones you quoted say:

_However, there is another theory as to what has been going on: that we are simply in a temporary post-pandemic rut, and normal service will resume before long. On this account, we haven't yet recovered from the spanner that Covid has thrown in the everyday workings of our labour market.
The argument goes like this: the pandemic has pulled the rug from certain kinds of activity, while pumping up demand elsewhere. It has switched demand for retail jobs to online shopping and delivery for example; it's taken jobs from city centre sandwich shops and put them in to the suburbs where you find people working from home._

I'd love to think worker power is back but I don't think it's as straightforward as that. Things have changed significantly during the pandemic. So a brief shake-up seems about right.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

Poot said:


> Literally the next 2 paras after the ones you quoted say:
> 
> _However, there is another theory as to what has been going on: that we are simply in a temporary post-pandemic rut, and normal service will resume before long. On this account, we haven't yet recovered from the spanner that Covid has thrown in the everyday workings of our labour market.
> The argument goes like this: the pandemic has pulled the rug from certain kinds of activity, while pumping up demand elsewhere. It has switched demand for retail jobs to online shopping and delivery for example; it's taken jobs from city centre sandwich shops and put them in to the suburbs where you find people working from home._
> ...


Yep. They're only paying more because they have to._ For now._ Trying to claim this as some kind of long term win for workers all because of Brexit is wildly disingenuous.


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

Since we're playing "let's pick out the bits that we think support our position and ignore the rest", thought I'd throw this in



> Add Brexit into the equation, and the old assumption that companies can just hire extra people from Eastern Europe to fill any gaps can no longer be taken for granted.



This is why it *may* be more than just a short term shake up. Only time will tell, of course.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 31, 2021)

Each.Bollard.Costs.Ten.Thousand.Pounds.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

They should just use cones


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> They should just use cones




They already have a truck-proof thing there, concrete blocks. Ten grand a bollard, ffs, more backhanders than Wimbledon fortnight down Lambeth Town Hall.


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Each.Bollard.Costs.Ten.Thousand.Pounds.


This does seem utterly mental.  If nothing else, I’m not taking advice on procurement costs from anybody that views £10,000 a bollard  as being the right amount to spend. At best, they’re incompetent.


----------



## brogdale (Jul 31, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Each.Bollard.Costs.Ten.Thousand.Pounds.


6 or 7 Band D Council tax-payers could gather around each individual bollard and celebrate their personal, annual contribution to the enhanced security of the collective.


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Steel costs $167 a tonne, by the way.  Even if they use a preposterous 500kg of steel power bollard, the _entire cost_ of that raw material still only amounts to about 0.5% of the cost of the bollard.  You’re not telling me that a movement in the price of the thing that is less than 0.5% of the overall price gives a material impact to that price


----------



## Chilli.s (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> This does seem utterly mental.  If nothing else, I’m not taking advice on procurement costs from anybody that views £10,000 a bollard  as being the right amount to spend. At best, they’re incompetent.


Someone somewhere is skimming a hefty sum for nothing, well probably more than one person


----------



## andysays (Jul 31, 2021)

If Lambeth Council say it's all down to Brexit, I don't think anyone posting on this thread is in a position to challenge that.

I mean, what exactly are you suggesting?


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

I'll look forward to some posters spinning this into something wonderfully positive









						It’s not Covid that’s damaging British trade. It’s Brexit | Philip Inman
					

Report after report is reaching the same conclusion: exporters, including many in the red wall, will be suffering for a long time




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 31, 2021)

TopCat said:


> I’m just bumping this as it’s more important than bollards.



never mind the bollards


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

And bad news for pet owners



> The UK is facing a critical shortage of vets that is set to intensify in the coming months as new EU export rules kick in, industry insiders have warned.
> 
> The pandemic has sparked a surge in pet ownership in the past 18 months, while Brexit rules demand more vets to sign export health certificates to move animals or meat between the UK and the EU.
> 
> But the number of EU vets arriving to work in Britain – which has traditionally plugged the shortfall in UK-trained vets – has dropped dramatically.











						UK faces vet shortage due to Brexit export rules amid surge in pet ownership during lockdown
					

The number of EU vets arriving to work in Britain - which has traditionally plugged the shortfall in UK-trained vets - has dropped dramatically after Brexit




					inews.co.uk


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

And look at the heartache and hassle it's causing some people:



> *Some EU nationals in Wales may not be aware they need to apply for their children to be allowed to stay in the UK, according to charities.*
> Organisations which help applicants to the EU Settlement Scheme (EUSS) also said some parents struggled to provide the necessary documents.











						Brexit: 'EU citizens in Wales unaware children need to apply to stay'
					

The 30 June deadline to apply to stay has passed, but some late applications will be allowed.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> And bad news for pet owners



Are you a pet owner?


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Are you a pet owner?


Why yes I am. Why do you ask?


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> Why yes I am. Why do you ask?


Have you noticed a problem with getting a vet?


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## Supine (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Have you noticed a problem with getting a vet?



Does one persons experience decide if this is a thing or not?


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## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> Does one persons experience decide if this is a thing or not?


In the recent case of petit pois , yes .


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> Does one persons experience decide if this is a thing or not?


I think before taking breathless newspaper reports on board as if they are gospel truth, it helps to engage at least a modicum of critical faculty, to be honest.  Editor keeps on just throwing us out these reports without any sign of engagement with the accuracy of what each one is claiming and every time this is questioned, he first gets a bit arsey and then just ignores it and moves onto the next report.

That vet report is mostly actually pointing out that lockdown has seen an unfortunate and ill-advised explosion in pet ownership (which includes in no small part those who have not had pets before).  I can well believe that it will be hard to accommodate all these extra pets, with or without Brexit.  But there have been some interesting advances made too in the last few years in online vets, which can help pick up some of that slack.  What’s more, with animal shelters now filling up with unwanted lockdown pets that  in many cases may end up being put down, I think I want to see ground reports of how all this plays out in practice before I just buy that Brexit has deprived us all of vets.


----------



## two sheds (Jul 31, 2021)

Private Eye has been going on for ages about the lack of vets and poor pay and conditions for vets in abattoirs, and with all the small abattoirs going out of business. Not sure how this affects brexit - anyone with a better grasp of this?


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## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Private Eye has been going on for ages about the lack of vets and poor pay and conditions for vets in abattoirs, and with all the small abattoirs going out of business. Not sure how this affects brexit - anyone with a better grasp of this?


Nope but I was going to ask Mr Ski about his detailed knowledge of electric car production in the U.K. .


----------



## brogdale (Jul 31, 2021)

Not really my cup of Tea, but today's edition of Aaronovitch's _The Briefing Room _explored UK labour shortages in various sectors.









						BBC Radio 4 - The Briefing Room, Where Are All the Workers?
					

As the economy opens up again, is the UK short of workers?




					www.bbc.co.uk
				




tl/dl or can't stomach Aaronovitch & his guests from liberal/capital? Précised: it's complex and causes vary between sectors and cohorts, but there's some pandemicy factors, some Brexity factors and some that are neither. One take away for me was how with FoM capital became addicted to hunger wage rates and shite conditions, happy to let other consolidator states pay for the education & training of their labour.


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Have you noticed a problem with getting a vet?


I'll be able to tell you that the next time I need to take Ziggy to a vet, although I didn't realise the entire accuracy of the story could be instantly thrown into doubt if my personal experience didn't match the concerns expressed in the story.


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> I'll be able to tell you that the next time I need to take Ziggy to a vet, although I didn't realise the entire accuracy of the story could be instantly thrown into doubt if my personal experience didn't match the concerns expressed in the story.


It would just be nice if any of these stories came from some kind of authentic perspective or personal expertise rather than just trawling the liberal press for “omigehd!” stories that somebody somewhere has found an angle to blame on Brexit.

You had that with the music industry stuff and I for one took your points on board, recognising just how much the Tory government has unnecessarily fucked over musicians just for the sake of their ideology.  But you dilute those good points when you suggest e.g. that a marginal change in the cost of 0.5% of the input factor into bollards has somehow added 10% to their costs, or pick some story that is speculative and in an area that you don’t really care about just to try to create a “gotcha” moment.

I suspect you’ll just get all offended at being questioned now but on the off-chance you might actually be interested in how this is coming across, there it is.


----------



## Supine (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I think before taking breathless newspaper reports on board as if they are gospel truth, it helps to engage at least a modicum of critical faculty, to be honest.  Editor keeps on just throwing us out these reports without any sign of engagement with the accuracy of what each one is claiming and every time this is questioned, he first gets a bit arsey and then just ignores it and moves onto the next report.
> 
> That vet report is mostly actually pointing out that lockdown has seen an unfortunate and ill-advised explosion in pet ownership (which includes in no small part those who have not had pets before).  I can well believe that it will be hard to accommodate all these extra pets, with or without Brexit.  But there have been some interesting advances made too in the last few years in online vets, which can help pick up some of that slack.  What’s more, with animal shelters now filling up with unwanted lockdown pets that  in many cases may end up being put down, I think I want to see ground reports of how all this plays out in practice before I just buy that Brexit has deprived us all of vets.



I’ve not read the article but my understanding is vet shortages are for new veterinary checks required for transporting animals between uk / eu. Not for getting your pooch seen to.


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## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> I’ve not read the article but my understanding is vet shortages are for new veterinary checks required for transporting animals between uk / eu. Not for getting your pooch seen to.


The article conflates the two.  Not least because newspapers are utterly shit at dealing with anything remotely technically challenging, which is why quoting them as evidence of anything is so pointless.


----------



## Supine (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The article conflates the two.  Not least because newspapers are utterly shit at dealing with anything remotely technically challenging, which is why quoting them as evidence of anything is so pointless.



can’t disagree with the state of journalism. the concept of vet shortages due to a huge extra requirement and no planning to fix the issue sounds very real though. very much Brexit / Tory related I’d imagine


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## MrSki (Jul 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Nope but I was going to ask Mr Ski about his detailed knowledge of electric car production in the U.K. .


If you were going to ask me about anything then it might be helpful to either quote me or mention me The39thStep otherwise how am I supposed to know? 

Anyhow for an answer my knowledge of electric car production in the UK is limited because I don't drive & don't really give a fuck about cars but I do know that the amount the government paid to Nissan to keep their Sunderland electric car thing going has been kept secret so one can wonder how much is Nissan been granted to allow production? I don't know & nor does anyone else.
Please next time you want to ask me a question or quote me then please have the decency to quote or mention. Otherwise I won't know about it.
Thanks.


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> can’t disagree with the state of journalism. the concept of vet shortages due to a huge extra requirement and no planning to fix the issue sounds very real though. very much Brexit / Tory related I’d imagine


The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions.  As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product.  This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.


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## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


> If you were going to ask me about anything then it might be helpful to either quote me or mention me The39thStep otherwise how am I supposed to know?
> 
> Anyhow for an answer my knowledge of electric car production in the UK is limited because I don't drive & don't really give a fuck about cars but I do know that the amount the government paid to Nissan to keep their Sunderland electric car thing going has been kept secret so one can wonder how much is Nissan been granted to allow production? I don't know & nor does anyone else.
> Please next time you want to ask me a question or quote me then please have the decency to quote or mention. Otherwise I won't know about it.
> Thanks.


Wasn’t intentional, I’m in a bar watching football and didn’t put the @ in .


----------



## Raheem (Jul 31, 2021)

two sheds said:


> The referendum was before the 2017 election where there was a reasonable chance of a Labour government being in charge. So 'Brexiter's couldn't have totally predicted  the tories being in power.


The 2017 election was unscheduled, though. In fact, many people thought an election was impossible because of the Fixed Term Parliaments Act.


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## Supine (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions.  As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product.  This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.



Sounds like you have beef with editor rather than the story. I’m also a vegetarian but realise vets are also used for zoo’s, pets, race horses etc etc. Brexit has made it all more difficult. It might not be the biggest issue in the world but it’s just one of many issues that Brexit has made worse.  At least some people get to enjoy the colour of their passports i suppose.


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## MrSki (Jul 31, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> Wasn’t intentional, I’m in a bar watching football and didn’t put the @ in .


Well there was also a space between Mr & Ski but I will believe you this time.   

Also am a bit pissed so will call it a day. What footie are you watching?


----------



## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

Supine said:


> Sounds like you have beef with editor rather than the story. I’m also a vegetarian but realise vets are also used for zoo’s, pets, race horses etc etc. Brexit has made it all more difficult. It might not be the biggest issue in the world but it’s just one of many issues that Brexit has made worse.  At least some people get to enjoy the colour of their passports i suppose.


I honestly have no beef.  I’m just a bit fed up in this thread that he seems to be posting up newspaper report after newspaper report with no real critical engagement.


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## The39thStep (Jul 31, 2021)

MrSki said:


> Well there was also a space between Mr & Ski but I will believe you this time.
> 
> Also am a bit pissed so will call it a day. What footie are you watching?


Just finished the Sporting / Braga Supercup which is like the Charity Shield game


----------



## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It would just be nice if any of these stories came from some kind of authentic perspective or personal expertise rather than just trawling the liberal press for “omigehd!” stories that somebody somewhere has found an angle to blame on Brexit.
> 
> You had that with the music industry stuff and I for one took your points on board, recognising just how much the Tory government has unnecessarily fucked over musicians just for the sake of their ideology.  But you dilute those good points when you suggest e.g. that a marginal change in the cost of 0.5% of the input factor into bollards has somehow added 10% to their costs, or pick some story that is speculative and in an area that you don’t really care about just to try to create a “gotcha” moment.
> 
> I suspect you’ll just get all offended at being questioned now but on the off-chance you might actually be interested in how this is coming across, there it is.


Ah. So it's the_ liberal press to blame._ Would you rather I sourced stories from the Daily Mail? Is that what you'd prefer?


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## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I honestly have no beef.  I’m just a bit fed up in this thread that he seems to be posting up newspaper report after newspaper report with no real critical engagement.


You asking if I've got a pet is what counts for 'critical engagement' yes? 

But I'm enjoying this Trumpian disregard for any story that challenges your views. Don't like the story? Blame it on the liberal press!



kabbes said:


> The thing is, I’m pretty sure editor isn’t actually a fan of transporting food animals between jurisdictions.  As an advocate of vegetarianism, he should be welcoming things that make it harder for UK capital to subcontract its meat-rearing to jurisdictions with fewer welfare controls and then reimport to the UK to astroturf its product.  This is what I mean by engaging with what is reported rather than just putting it up there.


I'd like there to be more vets looking after animal welfare, not fewer. Not sure what my diet has to do with all this, mind.


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## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

What views do you think are my views?  My only expressed view here is that quoting newspaper reports — any newspaper reports — as if they comprise credible sources of information about complex issues just shows up the one quoting as somebody that doesn’t understand how research actually works.  There’s a good reason why newspapers are not accepted as citations for anything other than straightforward reports of events within peer-reviewed articles.  Putting up what amounts to opinion pieces from newspapers as if they show, well, anything really just makes you look bad. The Guardian is no better than the Mail in that regard.


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## editor (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What views do you think are my views?  My only expressed view here is that quoting newspaper reports — any newspaper reports — as if they comprise credible sources of information about complex issues just shows up the one quoting as somebody that doesn’t understand how research actually works.  There’s a good reason why newspapers are not accepted as citations for anything other than straightforward reports of events within peer-reviewed articles.  Putting up what amounts to opinion pieces from newspapers as if they show, well, anything really just makes you look bad. The Guardian is no better than the Mail in that regard.


Right. So you think all newspaper articles can be dismissed out of hand unless they contain 'peer reviewed research,' and any direct statements from those affected from Brexit should be completely discounted, unless its backed by sufficient studies and documentation? 


Unless they're pro-Brexit presumably.


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## kabbes (Jul 31, 2021)

I voted against Brexit and think the Tories have made a right balls-up of it.


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## Pickman's model (Jul 31, 2021)

editor said:


> Right. So you think all newspaper articles can be dismissed out of hand unless they contain 'peer reviewed research,' and any direct statements from those affected from Brexit should be completely discounted, unless its backed by sufficient studies and documentation?
> 
> 
> Unless they're pro-Brexit presumably.


I don't like kabbes and we have each other on ignore. But I peeked behind the curtain and you mischaracterise what he's saying about journal articles, which is they view newspaper articles as of limited evidentiary value. He's not saying anything of the sort you claim.


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## Supine (Jul 31, 2021)

If you expect urban to become a peer reviewed information source i think you will be very disappointed.

There could be a good discussion about which media sources are credible but I’m not sure that’s what you want.

I just read today that The Daily Mail isn’t allowed as a citation source on Wikipedia. I have no idea if the Guardian or Telegraph are the same. It’d be interesting to know who can be trusted.


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## ska invita (Jul 31, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I voted against Brexit and think the Tories have made a right balls-up of it.


What should they have done differently?


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## kabbes (Aug 1, 2021)

ska invita said:


> What should they have done differently?


Rejected capitalism


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## andysays (Aug 1, 2021)

Supine said:


> If you expect urban to become a peer reviewed information source i think you will be very disappointed.
> 
> There could be a good discussion about which media sources are credible but I’m not sure that’s what you want.
> 
> I just read today that The Daily Mail isn’t allowed as a citation source on Wikipedia. I have no idea if the Guardian or Telegraph are the same. It’d be interesting to know who can be trusted.


I don't think anyone is expecting urban to become a peer reviewed information source.

But it would be good, IMO, if people gave a little thought sometimes to the origins of the stories they post up here and engage in a minimum of critical thinking about why those stories say what they do, rather than just post up any old stuff which appears to support their position.

It would also be good if people avoided, or at least attempted to avoid, the unnecessary polarisation of discussion we often see here, when any questioning of stories or sources is immediately dismissed as Trumpian disregard for any story that challenges your views, especially when the dismisser doesn't even take the trouble to establish what those views are, but simply assumes or creates their own ridiculous parody.


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## gosub (Aug 1, 2021)

two sheds said:


> Private Eye has been going on for ages about the lack of vets and poor pay and conditions for vets in abattoirs, and with all the small abattoirs going out of business. Not sure how this affects brexit - anyone with a better grasp of this?







__





						Brexit: a missed opportunity
					

Brexit: a missed opportunity




					www.eureferendum.com


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2021)

So it's Brexit to blame. 

The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000.  The RHA  puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.

Since then there have been moves to shift that blame on to the growing number of drivers in self-isolation after being in contact with Covid. But mounting evidence suggest that’s not the main factor.

The Road Haulage Association conducted a survey of its members and a report posted on its website yesterday said the results showed the main reason perceived for the current crisis was Brexit.

*The report said 58% of those who responded said Brexit was a reason behind the shortage*. It stated: ‘’The current vacancy levels additionally show that there are not enough UK drivers who are trained and currently willing to be employed to fill the vacancies in the industry. From the perspective of SMEs, Brexit is the main reason for the driver shortage, followed by retiring drivers and drivers leaving for another industry.’’









						Brexit to blame for food shortage crisis … not 'pingdemic'
					

Brexit remains the main factor to blame for food shortages in shops and supermarkets as attempts to make the so-called ''pingdemic'' a scapegoat are increasingly undermined. Warnings about empty shelves in shops and supermarkets began when Boris Johnson imposed his woeful Brexit trade deal which...




					www.businessforscotland.com


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## TopCat (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> So it's Brexit to blame.
> 
> The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000.  The RHA  puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.
> 
> ...



Well here is the actual report from the RHA. It makes interesting reading and makes it clear Brexit is a minor factor in the driver shortages area. 


			https://www.rha.uk.net/Portals/0/News/Policy%20and%20Campaigning/Policy%20and%20Campaigning%20Documents/RHA%20Driver%20Shortage%20Actions%2004.06.21.pdf?ver=2021-06-04-172031-887


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## DotCommunist (Aug 5, 2021)

58 to 42 % eh? the cursed ratio strikes again


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## editor (Aug 5, 2021)

TopCat said:


> Well here is the actual report from the RHA. It makes interesting reading and makes it clear Brexit is a minor factor in the driver shortages area.
> 
> 
> https://www.rha.uk.net/Portals/0/News/Policy%20and%20Campaigning/Policy%20and%20Campaigning%20Documents/RHA%20Driver%20Shortage%20Actions%2004.06.21.pdf?ver=2021-06-04-172031-887


It actually says:



> The driver shortage for HGVs is hitting crisis level in the UK.
> 
> A combination of factors (many of them long-standing) has contributed to the current situation. Recovery from Covid 19 is increasing demand across supply chains, the impact is already being seen with the increased opening of “non-essential” retail and parts of the hospitality sector in recent weeks. The recovery is exacerbating the already existing shortage. *Brexit has contributed too*. So has the loss of about 12 months of driver training and testing.
> 
> The long-term ineffectiveness of apprenticeships for lorry drivers and the general hostility from authorities and Government towards lorries and road transport in general is also unhelpful in recruiting and retaining drivers. Changes around IR35 have not helped either, adding cost and uncertainty for many operators. Overall cost pressures are increasing, it is the case now that freight customers should expect higher freight rates to feed through to the end of 2021 at least.



Why are you discounting the opinions of the polled drivers?




> Almost 90% of those who responded to a recent Believe in Scotland survey have noticed more empty shelves in shops and supermarkets.
> 
> A total of 89.3% had noticed shortages, compared to 6% who had noticed no difference and 4.7% who were unsure.
> 
> ...











						BiS survey confirms widespread food shortages - Believe In Scotland
					

Almost 90% of those who responded to a recent Believe in Scotland survey have noticed more empty shelves in shops and supermarkets. A total of 89.3% had noticed shortages, compared to 6% who had noticed no difference and 4.7% who were unsure. When asked about the shortage of lorry drivers, 93.3%...




					www.believeinscotland.org


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## TopCat (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> It actually says:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well you had to go far (Scotland) to get a comment piece on the RHA report but the report does not reflect the piece at all. 
As for the polled drivers you mention I ignore well they were not polled drivers but respondents to a “Believe in Scotland” survey.


----------



## gosub (Aug 5, 2021)

editor said:


> So it's Brexit to blame.
> 
> The Road Haulage Association (RHA) estimated the UK was 60,000 drivers short of the number needed to operate properly, even before Covid. They now put that figure as high as 100,000.  The RHA  puts the bulk of the blame on Brexit.
> 
> ...


 Whst were the relevent Unions saying/doing during the decade or so their members pay and conditions were clearly being undermined by imported cheap ;labour?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2021)

The RHA is a long standing Tory donating bosses organisation  which funded a researcher to prepare for Brexit five years ago  and placed her in a Tory MPs office. Said MP went to jail for sexually harassing the researcher. Essentially the RHA have for years overseen an aging low paid work force with terrible conditions bolstered by short term recruitment from the EU.


----------



## andysays (Aug 5, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> The RHA is a long standing Tory donating bosses organisation  which funded a researcher to prepare for Brexit five years ago  and placed her in a Tory MPs office. Said MP went to jail for sexually harassing the researcher. Essentially the RHA have for years overseen an aging low paid work force with terrible conditions bolstered by short term recruitment from the EU.


I dunno mate, sounds legit to me.

If you can't trust a long standing Tory donating bosses organisation who have for years overseen an aging low paid work force with terrible conditions bolstered by short term recruitment from the EU when they tell you these problems aren't their fault but are all the result of Brexit, who can you trust?


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 5, 2021)

Summary of how retail is responding to driver shortage  (from Retail Gazette)



> *Tesco*
> 
> Tesco is offering a £1000 joining bonus to lorry drivers who join the Big 4 grocer until September 30.
> 
> ...


----------



## gosub (Aug 5, 2021)

andysays said:


> I dunno mate, sounds legit to me.
> 
> If you can't trust a long standing Tory donating bosses organisation who have for years overseen an aging low paid work force with terrible conditions bolstered by short term recruitment from the EU when they tell you these problems aren't their fault but are all the result of Brexit, who can you trust?


Yeah, but Tiddles doesnt eat Rabbit flavour Whiskas so half the country can go fuck itself


----------



## The39thStep (Aug 7, 2021)




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## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Cue the 'pork markets' clip X 1000....


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## Ax^ (Sep 2, 2021)

so now all they have to so is make British pork cheaper than us pork

sure British farmers can compete with the over producing United States

flawless logic


----------



## mx wcfc (Sep 2, 2021)

Ax^ said:


> so now all they have to so is make British pork cheaper than us pork
> 
> sure British farmers can compete with the over producing United States
> 
> flawless logic


And if we can add to carbon emissions, by flying the stuff across the Atlantic, then why not?


----------



## Raheem (Sep 2, 2021)

They can have the sausages that would have gone to Belfast.


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## brogdale (Sep 2, 2021)

Ah, it's that time, again, when the food bosses update us with news from the sunlit uplands...



Loads more here


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## Raheem (Sep 2, 2021)

Focus on the salmon, gammon.


----------

