# What Now for the BNP?



## intersol32 (Jan 9, 2012)

The title sums it up. But I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on the current state of Griffin's party and its possible future? I happened to wade through Andrew Brons' BNP Ideas website (in particular his volumic essay on the current corruption in the parent body), covering last years debacle.

The issues seem endless, but mainly come back to the root suggestion that it's Griffin's cack-handedness which is causing the ship to leak. Also his ineptitude at handling the finances of the party along with the outight claims that he's on the fiddle. Placing 'favoured' associates in positions over that of ordinary party workers.* (see note)

The Question Time shuttle-crash (which Brons is particularly scathing about - and I agree, a six-year old could have batted those 'difficult' issues aside). Also, the Panorama documentary unveiling much of the above.

All added to this is their power dive from attaining over 55 council seats across the country, to now lest than half that. Plus the revelations that the majority of those elected rarely turned up to a council meeting anyway, and the rest deciding to drop the Party tag and go as Independents.

So, as everything from an outsiders view seems to be imploding in a horrible fantastic mess, will this illustrious crop of characters stay the course within the Party and mount a forceful resurgence (as Brons seemingly decided recently) or will everyone start drifting away to form/join other groups?

What temptation do other British fascist groups have for those now feeling the cold? Certainly no one else appears to have a clear or defined political programme that would be capable of recreating the same advances seen in the last years?

* (Note). It's hilarious that many BNP members are accusing Griffin of being "a dictator". I can just imagine one of them saying privately "well, y'know me and Kevin joined a Fascist organization...but what d'ya know, we suddenly realized it was being run...by a load of bloody Fascists!!!".


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## frogwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

the bnp like the lib-dems seem to be a completely lost party, they don't seem to know what they want to be.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 9, 2012)

Where have any discontented BNPers got, that they can go to, is the question. I'd contend that the EDL isn't a tenable option for many of them, and joining the NF might well seem too much like regressing to some pre-Griffin ideological soup of Euro-fascist and US racist gibbering, with the collected recordings of Hitler's Nuremburg rally speeches thrown in.

So, I can see life in a post-Griffin BNP, but then bad ideas often survive the idiots that think them up.


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 9, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> the bnp like the lib-dems seem to be a completely lost party, they don't seem to know what they want to be.



That's always been the case with the Lib Dems though - in fact I'd say before they got the opportunity to expose themselves in government it was their greatest strength - they were all things to all people, which enabled them to win the support and membership of people ranging from anti-war (mainly left wing) labourites to disgruntled Tories. It's only become a problem for them since they've been forced to take sides.

Edit: I guess you could say the same about the BNP - their support comes from groups ranging from working class old labour types seeking social protection, through Monday Club type tories, right up to hardcore old school Nazis. Although these tensions didn't ought to have been ramped up to the same degree as they have in the Lib Dems, since they've never had the opportunity to gain any kind of government power, and so haven't had to choose which group they should favour.


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## intersol32 (Jan 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Where have any discontented BNPers got, that they can go to, is the question. I'd contend that the EDL isn't a tenable option for many of them, and joining the NF might well seem too much like regressing to some pre-Griffin ideological soup of Euro-fascist and US racist gibbering, with the collected recordings of Hitler's Nuremburg rally speeches thrown in.
> 
> So, I can see life in a post-Griffin BNP, but then bad ideas often survive the idiots that think them up.



Yes, that's true about the EDL. Whereas they seem to attract plenty of the old BNP skinheads, along with C18 and B+H types, they're completely adrift politically. It's probably these culprits that are pushing for attacks on the Occupy protestors etc, in an attempt to give the group impetus. Especially now their numbers are getting smaller regarding the Anti-Islam marches. Plus even the EDL are falling out with each other, so I doubt if there's a major attraction there.

Going back to the NF would also be political suicide. First off there's too much baggage attached, plus any middle-class support would take to the hills. They all understand that there needs to be forward momentum. In fact I'm getting the distinct feeling that some of those members will start wandering back to the Tories and UKIP with their tails between their legs.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2012)

The BNP name still has a decent pull, far more so than any of the emerging electorally focused far right parties. And the conditions are still very good for the right, nothing tangible emerging from the left, I wouldn't discount the BNP pulling through from this despite the organisational chaos they are in.


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## Ax^ (Jan 9, 2012)

All depends on what the next 12 months bring to the economy,

Sadly it could  favour these sorts of party's


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 9, 2012)

So how many people has Griffin actually pissed off? Only if it's a big enough section of the committed activists I'd say he probably has to go before they can make any further progress. Obviously activists aren't the be all and end all but they're an essential ingredient for any successful campaign.


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## intersol32 (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> The BNP name still has a decent pull, far more so than any of the emerging electorally focused far right parties. And the conditions are still very good for the right, nothing tangible emerging from the left, I wouldn't discount the BNP pulling through from this despite the organisational chaos they are in.



Fair point. Indeed the inability of anything challenging from the left is its eternal legacy - even faced with a financial crisis and the BNP falling apart. In fact they're unable to even admit they've been part of the problem all along: "Vote Labour with No Illusions" is still ringing in my head from the early 90's.


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## intersol32 (Jan 9, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> So how many people has Griffin actually pissed off? Only if it's a big enough section of the committed activists I'd say he probably has to go before they can make any further progress. Obviously activists aren't the be all and end all but they're an essential ingredient for any successful campaign.



One thing I can't suss about the activist base is why, after working hard to get elected, did many of the councillors not bother putting in the hours at council meetings? Some of them even got exposed for defaulting on their council tax payments for christ's sake.


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 9, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> One thing I can't suss about the activist base is why, after working hard to get elected, did many of the councillors not bother putting in the hours at council meetings? Some of them even got exposed for defaulting on their council tax payments for christ's sake.



I find the argument that all far-right types are morons incredibly wrong headed but, with regards to these particular people, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. As you say, compared with the work that goes into getting elected turning up to meetings ought to be a doddle.

One possible explanation that just came to me - were these councillors picked because they were "clean" - less evidence of obviously facsist/nazi past or criminal convictions etc.? If so they may have only been a front and the more dedicated, but less electable, activists did all the leg work. And so the people who got elected were the least active/committed? Might be total bollocks, I have no idea - just a thought.


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## intersol32 (Jan 9, 2012)

SpineyNorman said:


> I find the argument that all far-right types are morons incredibly wrong headed but, with regards to these particular people, it's hard to come to any other conclusion. As you say, compared with the work that goes into getting elected turning up to meetings ought to be a doddle.
> 
> One possible explanation that just came to me - were these councillors picked because they were "clean" - less evidence of obviously facsist/nazi past or criminal convictions etc.? If so they may have only been a front and the more dedicated, but less electable, activists did all the leg work. And so the people who got elected were the least active/committed? Might be total bollocks, I have no idea - just a thought.



Certainly sounds reasonable. I don't think many were vetted appropriately enough, as you say. If you watch the Panorama 'Secret Agent' episode from a few years back, the young undercover lad was only in them a few weeks before they'd asked him to stand as a candidate.

I get the feeling they tripped themselves up in the rush to get everything moving.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2012)

Lots of councillors are shit tbf, from all the parties and independents too. Lib dem cat killer for example, plenty of dealers, sex offenders, fraudsters etc from all of them. The threshold for selecting councillors often isn't very high.

The BNP do seem to have more than their fair share of completely inept and/or oddball councillors but I suppose they don't have a huge amount of choices about who stands - fairly small membership plus reluctance of many members to stand in elections equals we'll take anybody.

They've had effective ones too. That Alby Walker, the albino looking fella in Hanley, ex-poster boy of BNP councillors, he managed to build a strong reputation for community stuff before he fell out with the party and left.

That's the major obstacle for the BNP though isn't it - the loss of lots (most) of their activist base more than a loss of their electoral base?


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Lots of councillors are shit tbf, from all the parties and independents too. Lib dem cat killer for example, plenty of dealers, sex offenders, fraudsters etc from all of them. The threshold for selecting councillors often isn't very high.
> 
> The BNP do seem to have more than their fair share of completely inept and/or oddball councillors but I suppose they don't have a huge amount of choices about who stands - fairly small membership plus reluctance of many members to stand in elections equals we'll take anybody.
> 
> ...



Yeah, and there's two ways I can see for them to possibly overcome that. 1) recruit and train a new layer of activists. Neither the recruitment nor the training is easy - activism is something you have to learn through experience IMO - it can't really be taught parrot fashion, and are the potential recruits even out there? or 2) Get rid of Griffin and those around him so that those he's pissed off can return. This seems to me to be the most sensible route for them to take, but I seem to remember someone telling me once that the BNP constitution designed to make this virtually impossible, unless Griffin goes willingly.

So are either of these even possible? If I were on the far right I'd be desperate to keep the BNP going - it's a well known brand, a kind of nucleus the hard right can unite around for elections among other things. If they lost that they could well end up as weak and divided as the far left - the state of which ought to be a warning to them. I think I'd be trying to work out how to get rid of Griffin - something that the more sensible characters like Brons are already doing.


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## The39thStep (Jan 9, 2012)

Particularly ill infomed op. In what way was Question Time  a shuttle crash? It was imo, and others who I spoke to, an unprecedented bullying exercise in which those resposible for the rise of the BNP ( with the partial exception of Greer) were allowed to get away with exorcsising the demons of the far right but bore no responsibilty for their success. The BNP had  a quite ovewhelming number of enquiries following that programme.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> That's the major obstacle for the BNP though isn't it - the loss of lots (most) of their activist base more than a loss of their electoral base?



Yes.

I think it's impossible to guess where they're going to go this year, but I do agree with those who refuse to write them off.

The fact is there is a big pool of well over a million people prepared to vote for a credible far right party, and the BNP are the only ones to come near credibility any time recently, and they still have serious brand recognition among people who probably havent been following the ins and outs of all the internal shenanigans.

However on the other hand their activists are tired, pissed off, divided or have jumped ship or packed up and gone home altogether.

Could a change of leadership reinvigorate them? I suspect so, but I also don't see a white knight in the near distance, Brons is not it thats for sure.

Even without their activists they could probably still win in PR elections, which at the very least promises a half life of sorts.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2012)

Yeah from what I understand Griffin has control over pretty much everything in the party - although I note Brons' tendency has survived longer than any would in a far left party so he can't have it down that tight 

But I agree that the far right needs to salvage the BNP brand. Can't see any of the new wave of electoral far right parties/platforms thriving, simply due to the proliferation of them, although who knows.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 9, 2012)

The alleged "mass" entry of disgruntled activists into the English Democrats is interesting as they do have a limited profile of sorts in certain areas, but I suspect that they will if anything pull it down on top of themselves rather than provide a boost, and I really don't see the likes of British Freedom (which I think I may be a member of lol) have any scope for growth except the growth of their leaders egos.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The alleged "mass" entry of disgruntled activists into the English Democrats is interesting as they do have a limited profile of sorts in certain areas, but I suspect that they will if anything pull it down on top of themselves rather than provide a boost, and I really don't see the likes of British Freedom (which I think I may be a member of lol) have any scope for growth except the growth of their leaders egos.



British Freedom look like piss and wind. How the fuck are you a member?

English Dems have a bit of traction I suppose, do they still have that mental mayor in Doncaster with the Tory son? UKIP will probably attract most of the disillusioned supporters won't they, if not the activists?

What impact will voters moving over to labour as an anti-coalition/cuts vote impact on the BNPs electoral support?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> British Freedom look like piss and wind. How the fuck are you a member?



I joined up online, before they were a proper party and for free, I still get the emails. Curiosity naturally.

I agree they're nowt, a glossy website with lots of cheesy stock images and a handful of egos and numpties.

It's £30 to join now so needless to say I don't think I'll bother.


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## Proper Tidy (Jan 9, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I joined up online, before they were a proper party and for free, I still get the emails. Curiosity naturally.
> 
> I agree they're nowt, a glossy website with lots of cheesy stock images and a handful of egos and numpties.
> 
> It's £30 to join now so needless to say I don't think I'll bother.



You could stand in an election!


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## frogwoman (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> Yeah from what I understand Griffin has control over pretty much everything in the party - although I note Brons' tendency has survived longer than any would in a far left party so he can't have it down that tight



internal faction lol.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 9, 2012)

Proper Tidy said:


> You could stand in an election!



True.

*strokes chin*


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## intersol32 (Jan 10, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Particularly ill infomed op. In what way was Question Time a shuttle crash? It was imo, and others who I spoke to, an unprecedented bullying exercise in which those resposible for the rise of the BNP ( with the partial exception of Greer) were allowed to get away with exorcsising the demons of the far right but bore no responsibilty for their success. The BNP had a quite ovewhelming number of enquiries following that programme.



From an internal perspective it seems that many BNP members felt it was embarassing (Brons and his supporters partucularly). Publicly they claimed a rise in enquiries, but I'd question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up after the debacle. And that's another thing - it's not always about numbers, but the quality of those looking to join. It's no use if half of them are bat-shit mental.

Given the amount of viewers Question Time gets, even the "Campaign for the Pedestrianisation of Norwich City Center" would have got a "surge".

The question put to Griffin about sharing a platform with The Ku Klux Klan ilicited probably the most bizarre response of the evening: (Griffin) "Yes, but it was an entirely non-violent section of the Ku Klux Klan."

From a man who wrote the BNP Activists handbook, it was insane to seem him parroting the same words back to the interviewer. A better answer would have been "I often share a platform with those I don't agree with politically, as I am doing now" (turn to camera, slight smile, acknowledge rapturous applause from audience).


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 10, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> internal faction lol.



The "right platform"?


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## The39thStep (Jan 10, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> From an internal perspective it seems that many BNP members felt it was embarassing (Brons and his supporters partucularly). Publicly they claimed a rise in enquiries, but I'd question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up after the debacle. And that's another thing - it's not always about numbers, but the quality of those looking to join. It's no use if half of them are bat-shit mental.
> 
> Given the amount of viewers Question Time gets, even the "Campaign for the Pedestrianisation of Norwich City Center" would have got a "surge".
> 
> ...



Why would half of those enquiring be any more  bat shit mental than any one contacts any other political party. And whilst you might question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up  so what ?The BNP is still bigger than any left party.

This is internet anti fascism at its most bizarre.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 10, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Why would half of those enquiring be any more bat shit mental than any one contacts any other political party. And whilst you might question the integrity of anyone who wanted to sign up so what ?The BNP is still bigger than any left party.
> 
> This is internet anti fascism at its most bizarre.



BNP bigger than any left party? In terms of what? Members? But then you must differentiate between active members and non active. As far as I can see the BNP are doing nothing, the left parties have a larger profile. Around and Up here in the NE, once a hotbed, its completly flat for the BNP, they do nothing and have no profile, theres no discussion of them at all (in the papers/letters pages etc). The wider left (and @ as part of the left) is the opposition, despite itself and its lack of coherence - 10K of trade unionists and allies (de facto) on the streets in Toon on N30 2011 is the largest manifestation I have seen beyond the Miners Gala.


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## love detective (Jan 10, 2012)

yep, everywhere I go people are talking about the left and their ideas


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> BNP bigger than any left party? In terms of what? Members? But then you must differentiate between active members and non active. As far as I can see the BNP are doing nothing, the left parties have a larger profile. Around and Up here in the NE, once a hotbed, its completly flat for the BNP, they do nothing and have no profile, theres no discussion of them at all (in the papers/letters pages etc). The wider left (and @ as part of the left) is the opposition, despite itself and its lack of coherence - 10K of trade unionists and allies (de facto) on the streets in Toon on N30 2011 is the largest manifestation I have seen beyond the Miners Gala.



And how many of these people would have been motivated by the same insecurities and concerns as people who might be sympathetic to the BNP or a number of policies (or were the exact same people even?) ? As far as i can see the only group who ever made any headway on these people electorally up there was the BNP. And as pointed out many many times on here now, 10 000 people out there demonstrating over their conditions isn't a clear endorsement of your incoherent left - it's anger and it's anger that there's very little reason to assume is being channeled unambiguously leftwards at the present time.


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## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2012)

Immediate aims - organisational consolidation, re-uniting the central group around a series of leadership compromises (for now at least), keeping an eye on where and how any right-looking w/c responses to austerity etc manifest themselves, slow steady rebuilding of local electoral apparatus in the key areas, with a consequent testing out of the approaches suggested by the above - i expect in a more racially overt way (as part of one of the internal compromises), attempts to recruit any serious looking people from the EDL milieu. Eyes on the metropolitan unitary and district elections in may, so starting this stuff very soon. Unless of course, one of the demands raised against griffin that he has to agree to to be able to get into a position to get rid of the dissenters at a later date is less emphasis on elections this year - don't expect that though.

Not really much substantive merger/unity stuff that can take place with the rest of the far-right given the BNP have hoovered up the best activists for  the last decade - burnout or disillusionment on the part of these people will probably mean retirement of one sort of another - either total or within the UKIP or tories.


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## The39thStep (Jan 11, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> BNP bigger than any left party? In terms of what? Members? But then you must differentiate between active members and non active. As far as I can see the BNP are doing nothing, the left parties have a larger profile. _Around and Up here in the NE, once a hotbed, its completly flat for the BNP,_ they do nothing and have no profile, theres no discussion of them at all (in the papers/letters pages etc). The wider left (and @ as part of the left) is the opposition, despite itself and its lack of coherence - 10K of trade unionists and allies (de facto) on the streets in Toon on N30 2011 is the largest manifestation I have seen beyond the Miners Gala.



You were on here last year telling us that the North East was pretty much an anti fascist free zone due to autonomous anti fascism, the miners gala and bookfairs.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2012)

love detective said:


> yep, everywhere I go people are talking about the left and their ideas


So the right wing hegemony in the UK is strong, you're not telling us anything other than the bleeding obvious.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> And how many of these people would have been motivated by the same insecurities and concerns as people who might be sympathetic to the BNP or a number of policies (or were the exact same people even?) ? As far as i can see the only group who ever made any headway on these people electorally up there was the BNP. And as pointed out many many times on here now, 10 000 people out there demonstrating over their conditions isn't a clear endorsement of your incoherent left - it's anger and it's anger that there's very little reason to assume is being channeled unambiguously leftwards at the present time.



Poor butch, he tries soooo hard.

I think it was a 'left' demo, a contradictory manifestation though it was, its a mistake to think that the right were on that demo (though of course there may have been spotters). The BNP are going backwards fast in the NE, they do not exist other than in your imagination on an everyday level.

Just cos things are not going to a leftist or @ grouping at present doesn't mean critical mass won't be reached at some point. Not that the political situation is great, I try to keep things objective, and in the mean time continue to educate, agitate and organise.


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## ayatollah (Jan 11, 2012)

Whilst old grudge bearing bastards like me simply chortle with delight at the complete meltdown of the BNP - ALL that hard , community based, work pissed up the wall through internal squabbles, doctrinal differences, rival meglamanias, corruption, being set up by the establishment for a public lynching (Question Time)... Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years.

Noone doubts that as the world crisis deepens from now on the rising tide of working class anger at the austerity measures imposed by capitalism in the UK and worldwide can go a number of ways - but the rising tide of working class defensive response to these attacks IS an opportunity for the Left, in the UK just as much as the fascists -- more so in fact as they have NO real action based response to most of the capitalist attacks other than racist/nationalist scapegoatism. Scapegoatism is obviously a good'n as a tactic historically, but it doesn't help fight the cuts - wages, pensions, or social services - so plenty of workers are for the first time in decades open to the analysis and tactics of the Left.

Time to lose that misplaced "grudging admiration" for the strategy and growth of the BNP - they blew it big time, and I think in the UK they always will. The next significant/electoral threat from the Right in the future is likely to "blindside " us from an unexpected organisational,populist, direction, rather than from the old lags of the Nazi grouplets I suspect. Which could well leave the fascist activists and hangers on  fruitlessly engaging in more, and nastier, EDL style ,street activity as their national irrelevance becomes clear. In the meantime the time is opportune for the Left.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 14, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Particularly ill infomed op. In what way was Question Time a shuttle crash? It was imo, and others who I spoke to, an unprecedented bullying exercise in which those resposible for the rise of the BNP ( with the partial exception of Greer) were allowed to get away with exorcsising the demons of the far right but bore no responsibilty for their success. The BNP had a quite ovewhelming number of enquiries following that programme.



steps, it was the way he handled it as well. he looked like he didnt know what he was doing. however, the enquiries that followed are often only short term and many do not renew their membership when they realise that the bnp dont actually do much. the same happened with BUF after the olympia brawl. they were referred as 'july joiners' or something.


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## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> steps, it was the way he handled it as well. he looked like he didn't know what he was doing. however, the enquiries that followed are often only short term and many do not renew their membership when they realise that the bnp dont actually do much. the same happened with BUF after the olympia brawl. they were referred as 'july joiners' or something.



Actually many people felt that Griffin was bullied on Question Time and that the show departed from its normal format so that the pother panelists could gang up. he may have looked like to you that he didn't know what he was doing but the BNP went to poll over half a million votes  and  increased their  vote in Barking.


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## intersol32 (Jan 14, 2012)

Regardless. It's obvious that the BNP have dropped the ball. They were given a sniff of power through their councillors and instead just cocked it up. It's already been stated that most of those elected just didn't know what they were doing, didn't bother to turn up to council meetings or (in one instance) run up expenses of thousands by constantly making requests under the Freedom of Information Act (mainly trying to make connections between Black people and AIDS, Asians and Crime etc etc). Totally fucking useless.

But the important thing about this, is that despite all the crowing, it essentially had nothing to do with the actions of the so-called left.

Even if (as I stated earlier) Question Time was a balls-up, and as steps states there was an actual increase in enquiries to the party and a boost to their vote it was likely a signifier of the desperation of the working class in many areas. Certainly a section of the populace that's currently looking for an alternative (possibly radical) voice in their community.

This whole thing should maybe be a wake up call to the left, that there's potential to step into that space. But of course it's also going to depend on how serious people are. The tendency on the left is for many of its people to be "from the working class...but not of the working class". Too many see themselves as enlightened morally and academically, but stand back from actually engaging ordinary people unless they get their fucking hands dirty.

I remember at a meeting years ago in the midlands when I raised the issue about the problems on a nearby housing estate, stating the people there had complained there was an infestation of rats. A member of one of the Anarchist groups piped up "God! Well, you needn't think me and my boyfriend will be running around after rats!".

Which I think probably says it all. Many of them have excelled Lenin, Marx and Trotsky with the amount of theoretical leaflets and booklets they've put out. But if the old fella next door has a problem with the boiler you can pretty much forget it.

Likewise if the BNP were to turn up and get it sorted or actually pledge to help anyone, the only reply from the left is to stage a picket in the town center telling everyone "don't vote for a fascist".

I'm still wondering where the Fash will take it from here, but it's likely given the performance of this weak opposition that they'll be able to turn it around and come in for a counter attack within the not too distant future. Maybe because in the meantime 70% of the left are still hoping there'll be a "decent leader emerging from the Labour Party at some point".


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## malatesta32 (Jan 15, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Actually many people felt that Griffin was bullied on Question Time and that the show departed from its normal format so that the pother panelists could gang up. he may have looked like to you that he didn't know what he was doing but the BNP went to poll over half a million votes and increased their vote in Barking.


a lot of posters on VNNuk and shirtfront were very critical of griffin as well and the anti-griffclops lobby are still on about it. cant deny the vote increase but they have lost plenty of councillors sonce thru either incompetence, laziness or disillusionment.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> a lot of posters on VNNuk and shirtfront were very critical of griffin as well and the anti-griffclops lobby are still on about it. cant deny the vote increase but they have lost plenty of councillors sonce thru either incompetence, laziness or disillusionment.



Stormfront and VNN are hardly representative of your average BNP voter.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 15, 2012)

no but they tend to reflect the different strands of 'thought' in fash circles. as mentioned somewhere else, the voters and nazi posters are not the same thing but the latter can be useful for determining the drift of BNP politics.


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## The39thStep (Jan 15, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> no but they tend to reflect the different strands of 'thought' in fash circles. as mentioned somewhere else, the voters and nazi posters are not the same thing but the latter can be useful for determining the drift of BNP politics.



Same as saying that The Flat Earth Society represent sa strand of science. VNN has three people and a dog on it. Stormfront is just a rest home for internet Nazis, cobweb anti fascists and the state. The total number of hard core Nazis must only be about two to three hundred in the entire country.

The BNP wouldn't regard either site as an audience that they would be interested or influenced by.


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## 1%er (Jan 15, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Whilst old grudge bearing bastards like me simply chortle with delight at the complete meltdown of the BNP - ALL that hard , community based, work pissed up the wall through internal squabbles, doctrinal differences, rival meglamanias, corruption, being set up by the establishment for a public lynching (Question Time)... Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years.
> 
> Noone doubts that as the world crisis deepens from now on the rising tide of working class anger at the austerity measures imposed by capitalism in the UK and worldwide can go a number of ways - but the rising tide of working class defensive response to these attacks IS an opportunity for the Left, in the UK just as much as the fascists -- more so in fact as they have NO real action based response to most of the capitalist attacks other than racist/nationalist scapegoatism. Scapegoatism is obviously a good'n as a tactic historically, but it doesn't help fight the cuts - wages, pensions, or social services - so plenty of workers are for the first time in decades open to the analysis and tactics of the Left.
> 
> Time to lose that misplaced "grudging admiration" for the strategy and growth of the BNP - they blew it big time, and I think in the UK they always will. The next significant/electoral threat from the Right in the future is likely to "blindside " us from an unexpected organisational,populist, direction, rather than from the old lags of the Nazi grouplets I suspect. Which could well leave the fascist activists and hangers on fruitlessly engaging in more, and nastier, EDL style ,street activity as their national irrelevance becomes clear. In the meantime the time is opportune for the Left.


You raise some interesting points.

I read this board a lot during the build-up to the last election and the predictions of some posters about the BNP has been shown to be way off reality.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 15, 2012)

Who/where?


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## butchersapron (Jan 15, 2012)

1%er said:


> You raise some interesting points.


None of which you bother dealing with.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 15, 2012)

In short: The biggest factor is 2014 Euro results.

If they lose both seats they are as good as dead and buried.

If they keep 1 they will stagger on.

If they keep both or grow it will be presented as quite a success.

I can't really see the growth option working out.

But knocking out NG and AB is tricky in terms of galvanising any specific anti BNP votes. De hondt makes it hard to read, but Labour would probably need 3 votes for every vote Greens would need (but being in opposition in Westminster now that might not be so far out a prospect. UKIP would need 2 (I'm talking about Griffin in the NW here). The liberals would need a lot more votes than last time to get a second seat, which won't happen.

Some GPEW people think it was a misjudgement to have gone full tilt on the anti BNP thing last time around, though they would have probably hailed a success if the margin had been 0.3% (5 votes per ward) the other way. I can see both sides of the argument. How much is made of it next time around hasn't been had out yet.

There remains a solid amount of potential for any party indulging in far right rhetoric. Happily the BNP, EDL and BFP can't stop themselves from ballsing up, so it will continue to be Conservatives and UKIP who make more subtle overtures to that contingent.


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## butchersapron (Jan 15, 2012)

2014 is too long away to make it the immediate factor. Griffin will try and ensure good work and returns in the NW.

Your tory/labour/lib-dem/green  bloc will do the same anyone but the nazas  thing  again.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

griffin said he was resigning next year and possibly handing the reigns to princess jenny g which shd make interesting viewing. whether he does or not is open to speculation. he shd have enough cash now to nick off to his bolthole in croatia, without his skoda obviously.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> In short: The biggest factor is 2014 Euro results.
> 
> If they lose both seats they are as good as dead and buried.
> 
> ...


i don't think the bnp will be in a position to fight the 2014 elections due to a lack of money. you seem to think they'll stagger on till 2014, which i think extremely unlikely as they have always haemmorhaged members it's just for a while they were recruiting more than they were losing. now they are shedding members like there's no tomorrow, their finances are fucked and pretty much all the talent's left - butler, golding, kemp etc etc. who is going to do the legwork for the campaign? the bnp's fucked, it ain't holding on for another 30 months.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 16, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Who/where?


 It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?

"Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years." 

I couldn't agree more, but then we've covered the De facto  'bigging up the BNP' angle by self described antifascists so many times before, and I don't want to prolong those awful irrelevant debates anyway.

Whats far *more interesting are attempts to build the anarchist and/or marxist/left/socialist opposition*, and in particular *practical attempts* to do so - not far more inane and irrelevant cobweb intanet shite.


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## The39thStep (Jan 16, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?
> 
> "Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years."
> 
> ...



I can't recall anyone bigging up the BNP. What some of us have argued is that the BNP needed to be taken seriously as a political organisation and not just dismissed a nazis in cheap suits that could be no platformed by 'anti fascists'.

 Rather than trying to rebuild a left that has little or no relevance for working class communities  I would suggest that  building local working class organisation might be a more pressing need.


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## The39thStep (Jan 16, 2012)

On the what now for the BNP discussion: The far rights problem is simply that since the BNP split neither the BNP or the ED or EFP etc have enough capacity to position themselves as the organsiation that can repeat the success of the BNP in what should be favourable times for the far right ( ironically the same period should also be favourable for the far 'left').

I suspect that there will eventually be some sort of electoral deal/pact  that will be based around getting Brons releacted to Europe.


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## bignose1 (Jan 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> griffin said he was resigning next year and possibly handing the reigns to princess jenny g which shd make interesting viewing. whether he does or not is open to speculation. he shd have enough cash now to nick off to his bolthole in croatia, without his skoda obviously.


He got his Skoda back


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## LLETSA (Jan 16, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> It was already sed by Ayatollah - DID U MISS IT?
> 
> "Quite a few old anti fascists on here can't apparently contain their DISAPPOINTMENT that the predicted "unstoppable rise " of the BNP has fallen apart completely . Sometimes ones analysis just turns out to be wrong guys - lets face it we've all had a few political predictions knocked off the rails by the harsh reality of history over the years."
> 
> ...



Whatever happens to the BNP, they've created a pool of about a million people, most of them working class, who are prepared to vote for an overtly racist party.

You, meanwhile, will continue to hold your meetings in phone booths, and the opposition you speak of is entirely imaginary.


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## Frances Lengel (Jan 16, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Whatever happens to the BNP, they've created a pool of about a million people, most of them working class, who are prepared to vote for an overtly racist party.
> 
> You, meanwhile, will continue to hold your meetings in phone booths, and the opposition you speak of is entirely imaginary.


 
Sad though it is, this guy knows how it is.


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Whatever happens to the BNP, *they've created a pool of about a million people, most of them working class,* who are prepared to vote for an overtly racist party.
> 
> You, meanwhile, will continue to hold your meetings in phone booths, and the opposition you speak of is entirely imaginary.


Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that you believe it is the BNP that have "created the pool...."?


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## LLETSA (Jan 16, 2012)

1%er said:


> Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that you believe it is the BNP that have "created the pool...."?


 
In the sense that they gave this million or so people a party they could comfortably vote for, yes.


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> In the sense that they gave this million or so people a party they could comfortably vote for, yes.


Thanks for the clarification, it is an important distinction.


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## butchersapron (Jan 16, 2012)

1%er said:


> Am I reading this correctly? Are you saying that you believe it is the BNP that have "created the pool...."?


What predictions?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't think the bnp will be in a position to fight the 2014 elections due to a lack of money. you seem to think they'll stagger on till 2014, which i think extremely unlikely as they have always haemmorhaged members it's just for a while they were recruiting more than they were losing. now they are shedding members like there's no tomorrow, their finances are fucked and pretty much all the talent's left - butler, golding, kemp etc etc. who is going to do the legwork for the campaign? the bnp's fucked, it ain't holding on for another 30 months.



"who will campaign?" is a fair question, but there are still some active branches out there. Perhaps BNP voters are less bothered about being campaigned to, but with it being as close as it was last time that wouldn't keep them in. I certainly would caution against any kind of complacency. But as for making it to 2014 and onto the ballot: far smaller operations manage it. All you need is £5k and the paperwork done. I would be very suprised if they didn't muster that up.


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## ayatollah (Jan 16, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I can't recall anyone bigging up the BNP. What some of us have argued is that the BNP needed to be taken seriously as a political organisation and not just dismissed a nazis in cheap suits that could be no platformed by 'anti fascists'.
> 
> Rather than trying to rebuild a left that has little or no relevance for working class communities I would suggest that building local working class organisation might be a more pressing need.



I of course accept that it was important to demolish the myth that the fascists had been beaten in the 90's, and to point out that the BNP's electoral, "respectable"  right populism tack based on local community work was going like a train in terms of growth and influence. I do though  think many putting forward this  "Filling the vacuum" position, seguing as it did with your own version of "build it local in working class communities" strategy, were very slow to see the BNP strategy falter and fail in a catastrophic mix of infighting and corruption.

 Partly I would suggest because, just as "municipal fascism" is a very hard tactic to continue for long before the failure to make a big difference to the lives of ones supporters and voters at local level derails the movement, so , as Militant found in Liverpool in the 80's, a radical movement of Left OR right just can't get enough access to POWER and resources via localist strategies to break the wider political mould  - as it needs to do to maintain momentum.

 You may see no relevance nowadays in the socialist agenda, but in reality it is ONLY the socialist agenda that has any radical answer to the current world capitalist crisis . Localism based on some sort of concept of "a working class agenda" separate from socialism just aint going to deliver to working class communities I'm afraid. As the Radical Left who gained control of Berlin Council  recently discovered, in a capitalist crisis the resources at purely local level are so tight that a local party even of the radical Left , in isolation, ends up having to IMPLEMENT" the very austerity cuts it got elected to oppose. Only a national  working class movement with a socialist agenda , linked to an internationalist perspective, can DELIVER a coherent radical reponse to the capitalist crisis - alongside LOCAL organisation too obviously.
"


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

Sounds more like an article of faith than any real analysis, I'm afraid.

_Where_ - in even relatively recent times - has "a national working class movement with a socialist agenda , linked to an internationalist perspective" begun to "DELIVER a coherent radical reponse to the capitalist crisis"?

More to the point, what evidence is there of the left having even begun the process of critical self-examination that might allow it to come up with some answers to the central question of why it (and socialism) is seen as an irrelevance by the overwhelming majority of its target audience? Perhaps even more to the point, what evidence is there of the kind of honest accounting that might allow the left to recognise that this is how it is seen?

And to address your other point - what evidence is there of the BNP's vote having dropped _because of its failure to deliver on a local level?_ Whilst it may well be the case that it may have eventually run into the buffer that you describe, for that to have happened would surely have required the BNP to have been the controlling party in a local authority. Yes, the BNP's train does seem to have been derailed, but not for the reasons you have described (internal fallouts, much of which were state inspired are the real reasons for its present problems) and certainly not to the extent that _its politics_ have been discredited in the eyes of its former support. And that's the crucial thing.


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> _Where_ - in even relatively recent times - has "a national working class movement with a socialist agenda , linked to an internationalist perspective" begun to "DELIVER a coherent radical reponse to the capitalist crisis"?


It would appear that many countries at this time don't even have control of their own budgets, so little chance of funding any agenda other than that dictated by the market.


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

So _that's_ what's stopped the growth of a viable socialist/left politics on a national scale?


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## butchersapron (Jan 16, 2012)

1%er said:


> It would appear that many countries at this time don't even have control of their own budgets, so little chance of funding any agenda other than that dictated by the market.


What predictions?


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> So _that's_ what's stopped the growth of a viable socialist/left politics on a national scale?


No, it means what it says. If governments don't have control of the money they don't have control of the agenda/policy/spending.


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

So a fairly pointless comment, then.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> "who will campaign?" is a fair question, but there are still some active branches out there. Perhaps BNP voters are less bothered about being campaigned to, but with it being as close as it was last time that wouldn't keep them in. I certainly would caution against any kind of complacency. But as for making it to 2014 and onto the ballot: far smaller operations manage it. All you need is £5k and the paperwork done. I would be very suprised if they didn't muster that up.


the bnp's successes have always been based on their ability to mobilise canvassers - from beackon's victory in 1993 to the 2010 elections in barking, where the bnp vote went up, just not as much as the labour vote. the problem's also been one of supply of credible candidates: for every michael barnbrook there've had 20 tess culnanes. i accept that the far-right vote hasn't gone away because of the party's recent difficulties: but i think that it is unlikely to return to the bnp unless and until they regain the image of a potential winners. right now they look like a bunch of losers and that's likely to stay. when you consider griffin's demands for a modern database system as a precondition for the bnp to be able to take things to a new level, on his own terms they look a bit fucked. there are new nf branches opening up, such as one in essex recently. it's the other far-right parties which are doing better than the bnp at the moment. i don't doubt there will be a rump bnp in 2014: but whether they are in a position to do anything is, i think, extremely unlikely.

it's clear griffin is a busted flush. brons, the only other member of the bnp with any claim to being able, is no spring chicken. the young talent's left, and the action's going to be found in other ranks than those of the bnp.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 16, 2012)

spot on pickmans! they have a high turnover of activists, they are hampered by criminal convictions (pornographers, bombers, nazis) and altho the bnp brand is strong they cannot agree or get along enough to stabilise again (the infighting is apalling!) and the other grupuscules are too wee to be effective. griffin is on the way out, he has said so himself -it cant have been easy for him and hes getting old and too rotund { : 0 (  - and as for brons, blech! this is not to underestimate their possible revival but at the moment it aint looking good and hasnt since the last GE and there is no one who can recreate griffins relative success.


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## Cloud (Jan 16, 2012)

They all like fighting too much, almost like an excuse, jesus I even know of some that have the friends they are trying to get rid of. Tbh the nobhead I know is just up for a scrap, likes to take sides, like old days, one in red one in blue and have a right good fight.


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> So a fairly pointless comment, then.


Is it? Governments not having control of their agenda is "fairly pointless" that's an interesting view to hold.


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

We weren't talking about governments. We were talking quite specifically about the extra-parliamentary left and the reasons for the failure of its politics to have any purchase in the working class.


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## 1%er (Jan 16, 2012)

Your question was 





past caring said:


> So _that's_ what's stopped the growth of a viable socialist/left politics on a national scale?


Your question implies there is only one reason and clearly there isn't only one reason.


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## intersol32 (Jan 16, 2012)

past caring said:


> We weren't talking about governments. We were talking quite specifically about the extra-parliamentary left and the reasons for the failure of its politics to have any purchase in the working class.



Depends what you mean by the 'extra-parliamentary left'. If you're making reference to groups like the SWP etc I think it's already common knowledge.

They ditched the majority of their W/C activists throughout the 80's to concentrate (in their words) on "getting Marxism across to those who frequent the coffee shops and libraries". Which ironically tends to leave them outside the sphere of the majority of the population they claim to speak on behalf of. Which is also why they come across as outsiders when they parachute into areas on the back of things like the UAF. Interestingly Searchlight used to produce a booklet called _When Hate Comes to Town_, about campaigning against the BNP. I always wondered why no-one ever wrote a similar booklet called _When the SWP Comes to Town_ - seeing as they had an almost equal impact in literally pissing everyone off.

The sad thing is that since those years the left has fundamentally chosen to ignore these mistakes in favour of University/Middle Class recruitment and a fetish for 'lifestyle politics'. They can't relate to the Working Class, and in fact go out of their way to seemingly and intentionally alienate them. Most of these groups have academic leaderships that dictate strategy based on what _they think_ is best for the masses, rather than the other way round.

We have to acknowledge that it took the BNP to show the left the potential that could be gained through slogging away on those rainy council estates and listening to people's problems.

The failure of (many) of the extra-parliamentary left to have any purchase in working class areas is simply because they're useless and shamefully deluded.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 16, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Depends what you mean by the 'extra-parliamentary left'. If you're making reference to groups like the SWP etc I think it's already common knowledge.
> 
> They ditched the majority of their W/C activists throughout the 80's to concentrate (in their words) on "getting Marxism across to those who frequent the coffee shops and libraries". Which ironically tends to leave them outside the sphere of the majority of the population they claim to speak on behalf of. Which is also why they come across as outsiders when they parachute into areas on the back of things like the UAF. Interestingly Searchlight used to produce a booklet called _When Hate Comes to Town_, about campaigning against the BNP. I always wondered why no-one ever wrote a similar booklet called _When the SWP Comes to Town_ - seeing as they had an almost equal impact in literally pissing everyone off.
> 
> ...


i'd go a bit further than you and say that the concentration by many left groups - eg swp, awl - on recruiting students also shows the paucity of their support among the middle class. instead they target the vulnerable and isolated fresher, in the hopes of getting a few months work out of them before the student discovers sex and fucks off.


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## past caring (Jan 16, 2012)

1%er said:


> Your question implies there is only one reason and clearly there isn't only one reason.



It implies nothing of the sort.


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## The39thStep (Jan 17, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I of course accept that it was important to demolish the myth that the fascists had been beaten in the 90's, and to point out that the BNP's electoral, "respectable" right populism tack based on local community work was going like a train in terms of growth and influence. I do though think many putting forward this "Filling the vacuum" position, seguing as it did with your own version of "build it local in working class communities" strategy, were very slow to see the BNP strategy falter and fail in a catastrophic mix of infighting and corruption.
> 
> Partly I would suggest because, just as "municipal fascism" is a very hard tactic to continue for long before the failure to make a big difference to the lives of ones supporters and voters at local level derails the movement, so , as Militant found in Liverpool in the 80's, a radical movement of Left OR right just can't get enough access to POWER and resources via localist strategies to break the wider political mould - as it needs to do to maintain momentum.
> 
> ...



And the million dollar question is how such a national working class movement can emerge and whether or not it has to be 'socialist' in the cobweb left tradition using the same tired formulas and quotes.. Louis McNeice on here put together some suggestions about how and what such aims and aspirations could be that would make sense in the 21st century rather than 1917.

For those of us who were attracted to the 'socialism from below' agenda such a movement  would be precisely based on local working class organisation ( rather than it being 'alongside') otherwise we are into umpteen re runs of socilaist unity type quick fixes, rebuiding the fifth international , book fairs or waiting for the RMT.

Lets face it most of the existing left have never been active in local communities but prefer to go to page seven of 'linking to an international perspectice' . I can remember meting years ago some Trot who had joined the RMT who spent his time with a copy of the Daily Mirror in his pocket handing out articles about Cuba.

I read last year or reread Hobsbawns _Uncommon People_: _Resistance_, _Rebellion, and Jazz a_nd there is a marvellous and thoughtful chapter in there about a CP organised village festival in the 50s or 60s which describes just how local workers support for the CP was routed in a tradition of local organising and standing together as part of a working class community and equally just how hard that had been.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I can't recall anyone bigging up the BNP. What some of us have argued is that the BNP needed to be taken seriously as a political organisation and not just dismissed a nazis in cheap suits that could be no platformed by 'anti fascists'.
> 
> Rather than trying to rebuild a left that has little or no relevance for working class communities I would suggest that building local working class organisation might be a more pressing need.


There's been no end of threads of contradictory quality about the anti fascist issue, here's one of them. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/analysis-of-bnp-vote-in-b-d.250368/  and another  http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/griffin-and-bnp-strategy.134960/page-56#post-4463253
You just are in denial.

As for the left, and anarchist movements, and their relationship with the working class, only nuggets like you try to pose a difference. In reality, a dialectical reality, the working class movement IS the left and anarchists, and the left/anarchists are the working class movement, of course, you can argue indefinately about respective levels of leadership and influence and so on, but some of us would rather do it than argue ad infinitum on u75


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## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Whatever happens to the BNP, they've created a pool of about a million people, most of them working class, who are prepared to vote for an overtly racist party.
> 
> You, meanwhile, will continue to hold your meetings in phone booths, and the opposition you speak of is entirely imaginary.



Letsa, you're full of shite, you don't let reality get in the way of your inane windbag shite.

Our meetings are far from in 'phone booths', you are just projecting your own lack of numbers and credibility onto us. Whereas we do things LARGE

As you will see as the year unfolds, I'm quite confident of providing a leadership of ideas and practice in our wide area across the North East from inside the actually existing working class movement and beyond for this period. We (the various groups and organisations I am involved with) have been and we will be doing a combination of theory, practice, agitation, propaganda and action. TINA.

The opposition you try to argue out of existence is part of the tradition so ably described by EP Thompson, it IS the average and not so average union member, it is the 10K people who attended the march through Newcastle, it is the 100000 who attend the Durham Miners Gala, etc and there are working class organisations containing political differences. You just don't try to work with people who think differently to you, infact, I'm not convinced you do anything. xx


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## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> Sad though it is, this guy knows how it is.


No, he doesn't. That vein of critique was still born, and he's still using it years later.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> There's been no end of threads of contradictory quality about the anti fascist issue, here's one of them. http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/analysis-of-bnp-vote-in-b-d.250368/ and another http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/griffin-and-bnp-strategy.134960/page-56#post-4463253
> You just are in denial.
> 
> As for the left, and anarchist movements, and their relationship with the working class, only nuggets like you try to pose a difference. In reality, a dialectical reality, the working class movement IS the left and anarchists, and the left/anarchists are the working class movement, of course, you can argue indefinately about respective levels of leadership and influence and so on, but some of us would rather do it than argue ad infinitum on u75



Who do you mean by 'the left'.


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## past caring (Jan 17, 2012)

His funders.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2012)

past caring said:


> His funders.



  I wish I did get several thousands, come and bribe me


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## The Black Hand (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Who do you mean by 'the left'.


The Left is parts of the labour party, trade unions and to the left, all the different groups - LRC, SP, SLP the anarchists and so on. In Scotland, Ireland and Wales all the socialist/nationalist variants too. The political spectrum is wide, the labour party straddles the centre ground, to the right and a bit to the left, and so on. It would take ages to describe everything relevant so I'll leave it to your imagination.


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## 1%er (Jan 17, 2012)

If only the working-class understood what was good for them


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> The Left is parts of the labour party, trade unions and to the left, all the different groups - LRC, SP, SLP the anarchists and so on. In Scotland, Ireland and Wales all the socialist/nationalist variants too. The political spectrum is wide, the labour party straddles the centre ground, to the right and a bit to the left, and so on. It would take ages to describe everything relevant so I'll leave it to your imagination.



I was just fishing to see if the answer was 'SWP, SPEW et all'. I wasn't sure if you meant 'left' as in the labour movement or the far left. Your definition seems to be inbetween the two.


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## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> The Left is parts of the labour party, trade unions and to the left, all the different groups - LRC, SP, SLP the anarchists and so on. In Scotland, Ireland and Wales all the socialist/nationalist variants too. The political spectrum is wide, the labour party straddles the centre ground, to the right and a bit to the left, and so on.


 
All of which is condemned to go round in ever-decreasing circles.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> No, he doesn't. That vein of critique was still born, and he's still using it years later.


 
Whatever 'critique' you're on about, I'm unaware of it. I'm just describing what I see.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> All of which is condemned to go round in ever-decreasing circles.



*Yawn*


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## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> *Yawn*



Tell me why it isn't true, because this is actually what's been happening for decades.

All you're doing on here, with your inane 'rah, rah' stuff, is proving that even 'reds' these days are largely apolitical.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Tell me why it isn't true, because this us what's been happening for decades.
> 
> All you're doing on here, with your inane 'rah, rah' stuff, is proving that even 'reds' these days are largely apolitical.


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


>


 
See what I mean? Entirely content-free.

When did being 'red' become merely a posture?


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> See what I mean? Entirely content-free.
> 
> When did being 'red' become merely a posture?


----------



## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


>


 
Smilies do not amount to politics. If you're going to bother posting, tell me why I'm wrong.

(Are you by any chance still at school?)


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Smilies do not amount to politics. If you're going to bother posting, tell me why I'm wrong.
> 
> (Are you by any chance still at school?)



Annoying when someone posts things without evidence or any point to it really isn't it. 

Tell me why you're right. You made the statement.


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## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Annoying when someone posts things without evidence or any point to it really isn't it.
> 
> Tell me why you're right. You made the statement.


 
When it has bothered you enough to post up a childish symbol in response, it's really up to you to kick it off.

The left as described by TBH has been going round in ever-decreasing circles for at least three decades, probably more, in the sense that it has less and less influence almost everywhere and gets ever-smaller in most places, yet carries on doing the same things, sometimes in a thinly disguised way, while expecting a different result (a definition of madness.)


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> When it has bothered you enough to post up a childish symbol in response, it's really up to you to kick it off.
> 
> The left as described by TBH has been going round in ever-decreasing circles for at least three decades, probably more, in the sense that it has less and less influence almost everywhere and gets ever-smaller in most places, yet carries on doing the same things, sometimes in a thinly disguised way, while expecting a different result (a definition of madness.)



Wow, what a revelation. 

Black Hand was talking about attempts to build the left. I.e. stop what you said from continuing.


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## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Wow, what a revelation.
> 
> Black Hand was talking about attempts to build the left. I.e. stop what you said from continuing.



He was saying absolutely nothing new, merely continuing a messageboard feud with imaginary rivals. In, say, five years time, he will, like most people on here, be saying exactly the same thing having got precisely nowhere.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> He was saying absolutely nothing new, merely continuing a messageboard feud with imaginary rivals. In, say, five years time, he will, like most people on here, be saying exactly the same thing having got precisely nowhere.



Wow interesting.

Have you anything other than skeptism to say? Perhaps, how you think the left can grow or why the left can not grow.

You asked me for politics and yet produced none yourself.


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## LLETSA (Jan 17, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Wow interesting.
> 
> Have you anything other than skeptism to say? Perhaps, how you think the left can grow or why the left can not grow.
> 
> You asked me for politics and yet produced none yourself.



When did scepticism become an evil? I don't think the left in the sense it's being discussed here can grow; it can only decline. It belongs to an era that's disappeared. It can find no way into power-revolution is ruled out by its lack of support due in large part to a dubious past (especially when in power)-while capital has all parties that could possibly be elected by popular vote in its pocket (not that these could abolish capitalism anyway.)

I notice from another thread that you seem interested in Red Action. You'd be better going on their website (if it still exists?) and seeking out their critical articles on the left and their proposed way forward. At least they departed from the stale orthodoxies.


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## Red Storm (Jan 17, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> When did scepticism become an evil? I don't think the left in the sense it's being discussed here can grow; it can only decline. It belongs to an era that's disappeared. It can find no way into power-revolution is ruled out by its lack of support due in large part to a dubious past (especially when in power)-while capital has all parties that could possibly be elected by popular vote in its pocket (not that these could abolish capitalism anyway.)
> 
> I notice from another thread that you seem interested in Red Action. You'd be better going on their website (if it still exists?) and seeking out their critical articles on the left and their proposed way forward. At least they departed from the stale orthodoxies.



I never said it was 'evil'. I just thought you needed a push into actually saying something of worth. Which it seems has worked. 

I'd probably largely agree with your analysis. 

Thanks for the political education though. I've never thought of going to look at the Red Action website despite my interest in them.


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## ayatollah (Jan 18, 2012)

Don't waste your time debating with LLETSA, Red Storm, like Private Fraser in Dad's Army the only line he ever really has is "WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOMED". Utter defeatism and pessimism isn't a political viewpoint it is just the sad outlook of the utterly defeated.

Better to concentrate on being part of the undoubted national and international rising tide of resistance to the capitalist crisis than waste time with the barroom bores who always claim to have "done it all" "seen it All" , and "know" any sort of radical action is pointless. Then you discover they seldom actually left the pub even in their supposed heyday !


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## LLETSA (Jan 18, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Don't waste your time debating with LLETSA, Red Storm, like Private Fraser in Dad's Army the only line he ever really has is "WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOMED". Utter defeatism and pessimism isn't a political viewpoint it is just the sad outlook of the utterly defeated.
> 
> Better to concentrate on being part of the undoubted national and international rising tide of resistance to the capitalist crisis than waste time with the barroom bores who always claim to have "done it all" "seen it All" , and "know" any sort of radical action is pointless. Then you discover they seldom actually left the pub even in their supposed heyday !


 
I don't claim to have done any of those things, nor have I ever uttered the entirely meaningless statement that 'we're all doomed.'

It isn't me that's been defeated but socialism, for reasons that have been more than adequately articulated elsewhere. All that remains is the constant slog of protest and resistance to whatever attacks capital will continue to inflict. But don't shoot the messenger: he doesn't like it any more than you do.


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## krtek a houby (Jan 18, 2012)

It's the infighting that puts me off


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## LLETSA (Jan 18, 2012)

krtek a houby said:


> It's the infighting that puts me off



The infighting's what it's all about.


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## 1%er (Jan 18, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> The left as described by TBH has been going round in ever-decreasing circles for at least three decades, probably more, in the sense that it has less and less influence almost everywhere and gets ever-smaller in most places,...................


Is it the message that is fucked up or the messengers?


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 18, 2012)

1%er said:


> Is it the message that is fucked up or the messengers?



Surely the messangers are to some extent defined by their message; 'we are the people bringing you enlightenment, we are the enlightened'.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## 1%er (Jan 18, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Surely the messangers are to some extent defined by their message; 'we are the people bringing you enlightenment, we are the enlightened'.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


To "some extent"


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 18, 2012)

1%er said:


> Is it the message that is fucked up or the messengers?



State socialism/social democracy has been abandoned on an intellectual level even by the people who once espoused it. As a consequence the steady move to the right amongst all parties continues unabated.

The idiot notion that an unabashed neo-liberal party can today be described as 'holding the middle ground' is simply proof of what BTF refers to as 'the drift'.

Across Europe the radical ground; the visible and political opposition to the neo-liberal ethos is increasingly being staked out by the far right. Nationalism not socialism is the coherent response to globalisation. There is in short, no left, left.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


>


The yawn and slaphead smilie are totally appropriate for Letsa


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

1%er said:


> If only the working-class understood what was good for them


And your point is?


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## past caring (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> The yawn and slaphead smilie are totally appropriate for Letsa



There's one that's just _made_ for you, too.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> All of which is condemned to go round in ever-decreasing circles.


All of which are comdemned to go around in increasingly decreasing circles.

Do you have a point letsa? You cannot write off the the wide variety of the unions, left, anarchists and so on in the ultra left blanket fashion you do. There have been and are some successes.... Your generalism is nonsense in reality, in all those complicated, dynamic and varied geographically different spaces where we all exist.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Whatever 'critique' you're on about, I'm unaware of it. I'm just describing what I see.


What you say IS your 'critique' Letsa, even with all its theoretical and empirical shortcomings.


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## 1%er (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> And your point is?


My point is, you can have the best message in the world but if the people delivering it have little or no creditability, who is going to take the time to listen or more importantly to learn and try to understand the message?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

past caring said:


> There's one that's just _made_ for you, too.


Yawn slaphead knobhed etc. Well dun, now get a life.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

1%er said:


> My point is, you can have the best message in the world but if the people delivering it have little or no creditability, who is going to take the time to listen or more importantly to learn and try to understand the message?


Creditability is irrelevant to politics, credibility can be. More important are coherent and widespread attempts to influence the political situation through participation rather than irrelevant do nothing ultra leftist purist nonsense.


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## The Black Hand (Jan 18, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> He was saying absolutely nothing new, merely continuing a messageboard feud with imaginary rivals. In, say, five years time, he will, like most people on here, be saying exactly the same thing having got precisely nowhere.


I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.


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## LLETSA (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> All of which are comdemned to go around in increasingly decreasing circles.
> 
> Do you have a point letsa? You cannot write off the the wide variety of the unions, left, anarchists and so on in the ultra left blanket fashion you do. There have been and are some successes.... Your generalism is nonsense in reality, in all those complicated, dynamic and varied geographically different spaces where we all exist.


 
I never said there hadn't been successes. They are small successes within those ever-decreasing circles.


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## LLETSA (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.


 
As I said, TBH rails against his imaginary enemies again.


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## 1%er (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> Creditability is irrelevant to politics, credibility can be. More important are coherent and widespread attempts to influence the political situation through participation rather than irrelevant do nothing ultra leftist purist nonsense.


 Creditability/credibility sorry about that, I have my computer set up for Portuguese and write for this board in my emails as that is set to English only so I don't get all the symbols, it also has predicted  spelling so this happens 

I agree with you that if you want to influence others politically you need to work hard, just look at the success of the Muslim Brotherhoods political parties and groups that say they were inspired by the MB in recent elections. They have been rewarded for the years they have spent providing education, healthcare and social services etc.

They have built credibility in the region because they have walked the walk and not just talked the talk.


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## LLETSA (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> What you say IS your 'critique' Letsa, even with all its theoretical and empirical shortcomings.


 
Might be because I'm neither a theoretician nor an empiricist.

Other than that, everybody other than those who don't want to can see that what I'm saying is correct.


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.



I don't think you can denounce the IWCA as 'ultra-left'. Furthermore, considering how small they were they managed to achieve results in local elections which would make the trotskyist left have a wet dream. Most on the far left either ignored the IWCA's results or said they weren't relevant because they wasn't a socialist vote. 

I'm just waiting for a new Black Panther Party of Self Defence (with every reference to black changed to working class, except in the name).


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## intersol32 (Jan 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't think you can denounce the IWCA as 'ultra-left'. Furthermore, considering how small they were they managed to achieve results in local elections which would make the trotskyist left have a wet dream. Most on the far left either ignored the IWCA's results or said they weren't relevant because they wasn't a socialist vote.
> 
> I'm just waiting for a new Black Panther Party of Self Defence (with every reference to black changed to working class, except in the name).



Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.

In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.

Just as a brief example of its moronic mindset one only has to look at the rightward shift mainstream politics has taken (as Joe pointed out earlier), and the reaction adopted by the left. Tomorrow night in Leicester there will be a meeting held by the UAF/SWP to focus on the upcoming proposed EDL march through the city. Some of the local football casuals with EDL links have said they'll turn up to the event to "air their views". Which interestingly will be the first time in a long time that the SWP have ever had to deal with a contingent audience from the working class.

If the whole meeting doesn't explode into uproar, it will not be due to groups like the SWP finally accepting that the weakness of their political opposition is what has ultimately given rise to such organizations like the EDL.

Perhaps the left should have been present on those housing estates where many EDL or BNP members come from? Perhaps if they'd thought of a decent local strategy to deal with the kind of problems that Fascism thrives upon, they'd have been able to embed themselves within the community as a radical political alternative.

Had this happened the lads that are likely to turn up tomorrow night would have instead been there providing security for the event, rather than looking to turn it over!


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.



That was the point I was making. I didn't mean anything about the IWCA's political thought.



> In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.
> 
> Just as a brief example of its moronic mindset one only has to look at the rightward shift mainstream politics has taken (as Joe pointed out earlier), and the reaction adopted by the left. Tomorrow night in Leicester there will be a meeting held by the UAF/SWP to focus on the upcoming proposed EDL march through the city. Some of the local football casuals with EDL links have said they'll turn up to the event to "air their views". Which interestingly will be the first time in a long time that the SWP have ever had to deal with a contingent audience from the working class.
> 
> ...



I'm not 100% in agreement with the IWCA's thought but I think this analysis is largely correct.


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## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Don't waste your time debating with LLETSA, Red Storm, like Private Fraser in Dad's Army the only line he ever really has is "WE'RE ALL DOOOOOOMED". Utter defeatism and pessimism isn't a political viewpoint it is just the sad outlook of the utterly defeated.
> 
> Better to concentrate on being part of the undoubted national and international rising tide of resistance to the capitalist crisis than waste time with the barroom bores who always claim to have "done it all" "seen it All" , and "know" any sort of radical action is pointless. Then you discover they seldom actually left the pub even in their supposed heyday !



Equally there was Corporal Jones coming up with solutions that might have been fine 40 years ago but were ultimately out of date. Its not always the case but joining the 'national and international rising tide of resistance 'and the need for a national and internalist  socialist solution do remind me of the utter triumphalism and  optimism of my initially  starry eyed days in SWP in the 70s.


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## The39thStep (Jan 18, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> I up your 5 years with 20! Thats been the IWCA modus operandi for approx 20 YEARS! Achieving fek all in the process Thats cos its ultra left shite btw regardless of the better things within it.



why didn't we listen to you 20 years ago?


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## past caring (Jan 18, 2012)

Something to do with prophets not being honoured in their own land, doubtless.


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## ayatollah (Jan 18, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Agreed the IWCA's impact was limited, but it wasn't because their strategy or arguments were ill conceived. It was primarily because those involved in the organisation were small in number. The dialogue that was being called for to adopt this strategy, and to point out the problems that were likely to arise in working class areas that had no representation, was effectively shouted down by the rest of the left.
> 
> In essence it proved that the left had become increasingly redundant. But to accept that the IWCA (and before that RA) were correct, the left had to accept that its analysis for the past 20 years had been completely and utterly wrong. Not being able to wake up and adopt the necessary self-criticism is still leading them into the abyss.
> 
> ...



No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .

The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.

Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?


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## Red Storm (Jan 18, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .
> 
> The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.
> 
> Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?



I agree that socialism is the only solution to capitalism. But where I half agree with the others is that I don't see any radical left wing organisation as capable of bringing in large numbers of working class people. Not because of their politics but because of their method of putting their message out.

It can not be solely votes which are won but also activists to participate in the politics of working class communitees.

Do you think the working class from below will push to create a new organisation or change existing insitutions of the labour movement?


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## past caring (Jan 18, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I agree that socialism is the only solution to capitalism. But where I half agree with the others is that I don't see any radical left wing organisation as capable of bringing in large numbers of working class people. Not because of their politics but because of their method of putting their message out.



Part of the reason that I and others don't respond in detail as much as perhaps we ought to is that some of these debates have been done to death , 5, 6 and 7 years back on here. I know that neither you nor ayatollah were on here at the time, but it is difficult to revisit some of the same old ground. I'll try when I have time in the next few days to maybe post links yo some of the older threads if I can find them.....

Anyway, for now....

The problem is not just the way that left wing groups put their message out - it _is _their politics. Because the two are inextricably linked. The politics of Leninism - crystallised perhaps in the notion that the working class by itself is capable of no more than a "trade union consciousness" and requires a "socialist consciousness" to be brought to it from without by the intelligensia (i.e. middle-class intellectuals) - has proved to be an utter poison and represents the historic defeat of the kind of communism fought for in the Ist International. It gives carte-blanche for the leadership of lefty groups to patronise and belittle, to say in effect to the membership and the wider working class "We know best". It doesn't just reinforce the natural tendencies of such individuals, it makes such behaviour almost a political duty.

It's not everything, by far, but it is a major reason for the lack of audience and a major reason for the inability to hold onto to working class recruits.


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## dennisr (Jan 18, 2012)

past caring said:


> Anyway, for now....
> 
> The problem is not just the way that left wing groups put their message out - it _is _their politics. Because the two are inextricably linked. The politics of Leninism - crystallised perhaps in the notion that the working class by itself is capable of no more than a "trade union consciousness" and requires a "socialist consciousness" to be brought to it from without by the intelligensia (i.e. middle-class intellectuals) - has proved to be an utter poison and represents the historic defeat of the kind of communism fought for in the Ist International. It gives carte-blanche for the leadership of lefty groups to patronise and belittle, to say in effect to the membership and the wider working class "We know best". It doesn't just reinforce the natural tendencies of such individuals, it makes such behaviour almost a political duty.



Thats the version of "Leninism" you were taught in the SWP though PC


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## past caring (Jan 18, 2012)

It's the version of Leninism I've seen everywhere in practise - yes, of course, my most intimate experience of it was in the swerpers, but I've worked with individuals in other left groups plenty, including the London SA steering committee, for my sins. 

I am not wrong in suggesting that Lenin argued that, though, am I?

Do you take the view that other (revolutionary) left groups weren't/aren't infected by that way of operating? Is it _just_ the SP (in the UK) that is immune? If you do believe it to be immune, then why so? On the basis of what theoretical underpinning - a rejection of that aspect of Lenin's politics or a different interpretation? What organisational mechanisms/structures flow from that rejection or different interpretation?


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## LLETSA (Jan 19, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.
> 
> Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?



As somebody has said above, these assumptions are more articles of faith than any kind of analysis. Who would have thought in, say, the mid-1970s that within thirty years social democracy would be dead in all but name, inequality growing at a rate not seen for a century, Communist rule history almost everywhere, any potential government that refuses to endorse capital's strategies effectively shut out of power throughout most of the world, labour movements a shadow of their former selves throughout the West and beyond, neo-fascism the natural choice for millions of workers across Europe and the left disorientated as never before even in the deepest crisis of capitalism for decades? In this context, Stalinism is the last thing anybody need worry about, and there is no reason whatsoever to assume that the deepening crisis will cause millions to embrace an ideology that arose in an era that looked quite different in almost every respect, not least in its sunny outlook for the world which today's looming monsters (dwindling natural resources, nuclear weapons proliferation, unstoppable climate change, generalised and growing economic crisis threatening to spin out of control while immune to all economic and political nostrums etc etc) give the lie to. In today's context there is no reason whatsoever to assume that 'the socialist message' will strike a chord with sufficient numbers of people, particularly when that message has become both dated and confused, and the mass media now drums other messages into the heads of everybody twenty-four hours a day. The fact that fascists and others also have no answers is really neither here nor there. Of course resistance isn't futile, but it seems unlikely to go beyond mere protest and the occasional small-scale victory, particularly as 'the left' doesn't really have any coherent answers and no way of gaining power, as we see in the Middle East where workers and students do the protesting and the dying (unclear as to what they're actually fighting for other than 'democracy') while others reap the benefit.

Optimism and pessimism don't really come into it. The times are what they are-you just have to fucking get on with it.


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Anyone else not convinced that 'the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism.' as Ayotollah argued?


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Anyone else not convinced that 'the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism.' as Ayotollah argued?



Has the left, albeit slowly, not grown since 2007? I certainly think it has. When I joined the SP in 2006 there was five of us in Manchester branch which grew to about 20 by the time I left in mid/2008.

Plus Ireland's ULA did fairly well at the elections. 

I do believe that the crisis will push people towards socialism however it's what the left does with that which is key. I think the far left, the unions and labour  is failing to capitalise on it.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

That above arguments really weak but I've only just got up. I do think the left has experienced growth howeer


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> That above arguments really weak but I've only just got up. I do think the left has experienced growth howeer


 
Arguements  were a bit but I was impressed with the impact you had on the growth of Manchester SP.

Its nearly luchtime so get a brew, have a wash and have another think. If the crisis is pushing people towards socialism we don't really need the far left, unions and labour to pull them away from it do we. What is their role then?


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Arguements were a bit but I was impressed with the impact you had on the growth of Manchester SP.
> 
> Its nearly luchtime so get a brew, have a wash and have another think. If the crisis is pushing people towards socialism we don't really need the far left, unions and labour to pull them away from it do we. What is their role then?



Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth. 

I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.


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## LLETSA (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I do think the left has experienced growth howeer


 
I suppose it's more than you can say for the economy.


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## LLETSA (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth.
> 
> I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.


 
The crisis of the working class movement goes deeper than mere numbers, though.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

On Manchester SP. The working class members of the branch formed a section of Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance (plus others from other bits) and MAFA were able to bring in even more working class people into working class politics. All a chain. 

LLETSA, how does it go deeper?


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Whoa. I didn't say the growth was down to me. Far from it. I think it was because the Manchester SP branch was able to connect with working class people so it gained a really good group. Salford eventually got its own branch due to growth.
> 
> I unfortunately don't have time to ponder what you ask, as it is exam time. I don't think any current far left organisations can utilise a growth in working class support but I do think the Unions can. Who knows. I certainly don't have the answers nor can I be arsed trying to implement an answer but I certainly hope there are people willing to give up large portions of their life to do so.



I was joking when I implied the growth was down to you.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I was joking when I implied the growth was down to you.



I don't really know how to react to such an ambiguous and unnecessary insult.


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Hate to say it but I moved up to manchester in the mid 80s the left was a lot lot bigger. Withington, Longsight/Gorton branches of the Swp had about thirty plus  members in each and north manchester  about fourty.Take in the other GM branches and there would have been over 250.

The CP probably had about 100 or more with a larger layer of passive supporters.

Miklitant had about five members in Withington alone in the 80s but grew their GM organisation bigger from both Liverpool and the poll tax before collapsing after the split.

The SLP had a relatively short but impressive growth spell. Red Action had around 20-30. Then there was  the smaller trot groups like Socialist Organgrinder, Workers Power.


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't really know how to react to such an ambiguous and unnecessary insult.



Men make history but not necessarily in the circumstances of their own choosing.

Now get back to your revising


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Hate to say it but I moved up to manchester in the mid 80s the left was a lot lot bigger. Withington, Longsight/Gorton branches of the Swp had about thirty plus members in each and north manchester about fourty.Take in the other GM branches and there would have been over 250.
> 
> The CP probably had about 100 or more with a larger layer of passive supporters.
> 
> ...


 
You do realise that it's not the 80s don't you? 

Btw father christmas isn't real either.


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## The39thStep (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> You do realise that it's not the 80s don't you?
> 
> Btw father christmas isn't real either.



That is my point. I am still waiting for some evidence that the crisis is pushing people towards socialism as well.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> That is my point. I am still waiting for some evidence that the crisis is pushing people towards socialism as well.



I think there is electoral evidence in the Ireland. 

I think it would be difficult to prove in the UK because the left does so badly in elections.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 19, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .
> 
> The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation...



The point is that euro-nationalism properly applied uses marxist strategies for nationalist ends. As the FN put in the early 1980's 'we're on the landings no one else is'. Still true.

In fact the BNP do attempt to address through their own prism naturally, local grievances. But do they deliver you ask?

The point that has been made repeatedly is that in absence of an alternative, they don't have to. As Randall P Mc Murphy put it: 'At least I tried! At least I did that.'

'Only socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation?'

Really? Where's that then?

And who does it offer this coherent model to?

Certainly not the people 'on the landings'.

In summary the BNP's problems are essentially organisational in nature. The Left's problems are however, tactical, strategical, ideological and philosophical...and as past caring pointed out some way back, until the Left as a whole comes to terms with what went wrong and _when_, there never will be a renaissance.

The first hurdle is to actually come to terms with the fact that for the Left as a whole internationally a Rubicon does exist, that it must be located, and after appropriate discussion - it must be crossed.


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## LLETSA (Jan 19, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> On Manchester SP. The working class members of the branch formed a section of Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance (plus others from other bits) and MAFA were able to bring in even more working class people into working class politics. All a chain.
> 
> LLETSA, how does it go deeper?



For reasons I and others have already outlined. An extra few dozen (usually temporary)recruits to organisations way past their sell-by date indicates no political sea change, but only that small numbers of people interested in making a difference have nowhere else to go.


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## Red Storm (Jan 19, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> For reasons I and others have already outlined. An extra few dozen (usually temporary)recruits to organisations way past their sell-by date indicates no political sea change, but only that small numbers of people interested in making a difference have nowhere else to go.



They turned out temporary in the SP but they then went on to do anti-fascist work and now anti cuts work albeit independent. The membership of organisations may be temporary but becoming politically active within the labour movement can be longer lasting. 

However it is true that we have no where to go. An issue not easy to resolve.


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## intersol32 (Jan 19, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> No argument that the Left, however broadly that is understood, should indeed have been present on the housing estates where the EDL or BNP members come from. BUT you seem to move effortlessly from this statement to an assumption that the BNP (or EDL) had or have, or ever will have, a SOLUTION to the hardships faced by the poorer White working class, on big estates or generally. I think NOT. All they ever offer is scapegoatism - blame the blacks, Asians, Poles etc. Have the BNP ever delivered better housing, jobs, a fightback against the cuts ? Like hell they have. Where they won council seats, for instance in Stoke, they were simply a minority of Right Wingers unable to deliver ANYTHING but bile against "immigrants". And in many cases the BNP councillors were such crap quality they quickly pissed off their voting support .
> 
> The Right, with their nationalistic and racist and bogus radical sounding rhetoric have NO route out of the current world capitalist crisis. Fascism never has, it has always been "Fools's Socialism", peddling dreams and racist bile till it got hold of the state machine, and then its true totalitarian colours become clear. That so many across Europe fall for fascist rhetoric, yes, but so what.. people are easy prey to nationalism and racism, the POINT is to have an alternative, better vision to offer. ONLY socialism offers a coherent model of social organisation - yes, the danger of stalinism is always there, but again, what better model have ANY of you guys got ? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ! On this ENTIRE set of threads not ONE coherent model or set of non socialist action based proposals as to how to effectively fight the capitalist crisis has been offered by ANYONE, not ONCE! Just pessimism and defeatism. All so sad. Especially as many of you have such a fine personal radical history.
> 
> Fortunately the ever deepening capitalist crisis will itself act as the recruitment sergeants for socialism. The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again. TODAY the point for socialists is to be a part of the growing resistance to austerity, to show the passive and hopeless that resistance is not futile. Total pessimists need not participate. Maybe Prozac would help though ?



This seems to border on religious fervour, rather than a realistic assessment of strategy.

No one here is suggesting that the BNP offer concrete solutions. But the irony is that whilst the far-right have metaphorically dropped the ball after their 55+ councillors, there's still nothing standing in their way to prevent a resurgance and learn from their mistakes.

Let's not forget that rather than fill the void and connect with the working class, many on the left instead urged them to carry on voting for the Labour Party...or as in the case of Barking and Dagenham "even a Tory, as long as its not the BNP!". What a fucking nightmare.

To highlight this lack of foresight, I remember a few years back when the BNP were on one of the local estates whipping up the issue of immigration. The response from the left? Produce a poster that says "Asylum Seekers Welcome Here!" (where they meant by "Here" is not entirely certain, as they certainly weren't going to be housed in Hemel Hempstead where most of the protestors appeared to be from). In fact only a few weeks ago I saw another elderly lefty protestor at a UAF demo holding a sign that said "I love Mosques", so they obviously haven't learned.

To accuse many of us on here of "pessimism" is also a bit rich. Especially when you state that "The working class may see their salvation TODAY in passivity and buying a Lottery ticket, but once unemployment reaches 4 million or so, the welfare state is in tatters, and wages are cut to the bone, masses of people WILL be open to the socialist message again."

Brilliant. I'd like to see someone sell that message on the doorstep; "listen mate, I know youth unemployment has gone up, substance and alcohol abuse is rife, the financial system is fucked, everyone's in debt....but when it gets WORSE you'll finally understand that Socialism is your answer. Cheers."

It reminds me of the local vicar that suddenly turned up at my grandparents house after they were burgled. Prior to that he'd not shown his nose in the whole 50 years they'd lived there.

Despite all this I do have faith in the working class, but I don't rub my hands hoping that things will finally become so bad that they'll come running to us. It may become the case that a political movement of some sort will rise out of it at some point, but the only way anyone on the left can be sure of its direction is if they're in there living and breathing it. Not on the outside trying to flog them a newspaper and trying to get everyone along to a meeting about Palestine.


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## Falcon (Jan 19, 2012)

The BNP just has to wait.

The country will come apart at the seams as collapsing standards of living arising from the government's progressive default on the £4 trillion unfunded pension liability collide with escalating living costs as oil depletion inflates transportation, heating and food bills, global economic contraction, and the collapse of that great engine of middle class wealth - the 40 year housing bubble. As the penny drops that rolling power blackouts, round-the-block unemployment queues, soup kitchens and the paraphenalia of Depression society is not a "double dip recession" but rather the videotape of our parents' post-War oil surplus synthetic enrichment running backwards, all eyes will turn to the "other" in our midst, competing with "us" for diminishing resource.

Enter the BNP.

There is a reason why the Government is pre-emptively installing the infrastructure and legislation for massive public disorder control, and why the BNP sit in the front row of Transition planning meetings.


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## frogwoman (Jan 19, 2012)

Falcon said:


> why the BNP sit in the front row of Transition planning meetings.



do they?? what do you mean? (i don't know what you mean by this, sorry!)


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## 1%er (Jan 19, 2012)

Falcon said:


> There is a reason why the Government is pre-emptively installing the infrastructure and legislation for massive public disorder control, and why the BNP sit in the front row of Transition planning meetings.


Can you give me some examples of the infrastructure and legislation of which you speak?


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 19, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> do they?? what do you mean? (i don't know what you mean by this, sorry!)



It's not just you mate, I had a wtf? moment when I read that too but I didn't ask cos I was hoping someone else would and save me from looking thick lol


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## Pickman's model (Jan 19, 2012)

Falcon said:


> There is a reason why the Government is pre-emptively installing the infrastructure and legislation for massive public disorder control, and* why the BNP sit in the front row of Transition planning meetings.*


yes. a surprising number of bnp members are short-sighted and too vain to wear glasses.


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## Falcon (Jan 19, 2012)

The Transition Movement is a rapidly growing global movement that supports community led preparation for energy depletion and climate change. It's fluid (as you'd expect - no-one has ever operated an industrial society in reverse, they've always exploded so there is no manual). A significant aspect of the process is the systematic consideration of all the ways society will degrade as its operational fabric unravels (the "operational fabric" comprises the given conditions at any time that support system wide functionality. Examples include functioning markets, financing, monetary stability, operational supply-chains, transport, digital infrastructure, command & control, health service, sanitation, food production, institutions of trust, and sociopolitical stability. It is what we casually assume does and will exist, and which provides the structural foundation for any project we wish to develop. Since what we perceive as "society" is an emergent property of a complex system rather than something we designed, we don't actually know all of its critical subsystems, interdependencies and single points of failure, so this is quite a hard exercise). The reason the Transition Movement does it is to try and figure out ways to mitigate their failures with alternative social arrangements. The reason the BNP are interested in it is to learn what they are. It's like someone else doing your homework. They are regular attenders at the meetings I've been to.

The Civil Contingencies Act is one example of pre-emptive legislative change. The scope of its application is, inexplicably, limitless. It cannot be explained from a presumption of continuity of government through preservation of the rule of law. It is predicated on an assumption that discontinuity of government is a contingency for which an explicit legislative instrument is now required. The balance is now shifting from the logic of the legal system, which requires proof, to the logic of intelligence, which is based on suspicion. They have been slipped under the radar by splitting them, like binary weapons: (1) Introduce laws notionally targeted at "terrorists" (2) broaden the definition of "terrorist". Protestors at the 2004 Docklands arms fair were stopped and searched under the Terrorism Act 2000, not conventional police powers. Walter Wolfgang was removed from the Labour Party conference for heckling Straw - under anti-terror laws. Anti-terrorism powers were invoked to stop people approaching the 2007 Climate Camp at Heathrow, and against residents of a nearby village preparing to march to protest the loss of their homes to an airport expansion. The UK Government seized the assets of Icelandic bank Landsbanki in 2008 - under anti-terrorism laws. Wearing a T-shirt with an anti-government slogan can get you arrested in Britain - under anti-terrorism laws.

Legitimate political dissent and protest is now criminalised. You do it to the extent you are permitted, and that extent is discretionary. The anti-capitalist protest outside St Pauls is the precursor of mass civil disobedience. The scope of anti-capitalist protest is rather fundamentally circumscribed by new and unprecedented state powers.

If you tried to organise a protest to have the law repealed, you could be detained under the law.

The British achieved in a single legal instrument what it took the American neo-Conservatives years of patient, deep-state extra-legal stealth to install in their Constitution. I think we are in an even deeper coma than they are, if such a thing is possible. Imagine if the wrong lot got their hands on those toys, elected, say, on a ticket of restoring the glory of Britannia?


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## audiotech (Jan 20, 2012)

Well yes, but no but, yes but, but no but. 

A normative approach Falcon, which rightly assesses the here and now (well, sometime in the near future at least), but historical materialism does tend to throw up a few surprises that then is organised. Yes?

Seven million trade unionists dwarfs the BNP and in all likelihood the vast majority of shop stewards (how many these days?) at least despise them.


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Seven million trade unionists dwarfs the BNP and in all likelihood the vast majority of shop stewards (how many these days?) at least despise them.


Well, if you can't expect civil behaviour at that point in our civilisation when we've never had so much comfort and so little competition for resource (the functional definition of "peak"), when can you?

As far as I know, the citizens of the Weimar Republic weren't genetically or culturally predisposed to running the likes of Treblinka. Something happened to change the behaviour of shopkeepers and nice family men. That "something" was a variant of structural collapse, the creation of an entire underclass of very desperate people, and an artificially manufactured "other" (in their case, Jews, gypsies, etc., in our case "muslimsterrorists") who's existence explained the problem and who's elimination provided a solution and diversion and legitimated necessary legal and constitutional changes. (Interestingly, the Nazis went to some length to ensure that death camps were legal under German law).

As thoughtful creatures, we look beyond the next episode of "I'm a Celebrity" to speculate about how people's behaviour might change as we descend through Orlov's five stages of collapse (financial, commercial, political, social and cultural), based on observation of how it has always done so in the past.


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Well yes, but no but, yes but, but no but.
> 
> A normative approach Falcon, which rightly assesses the here and now (well, sometime in the near future at least), but historical materialism does tend to throw up a few surprises that then is organised. Yes?
> 
> Seven million trade unionists dwarfs the BNP and in all likelihood the vast majority of shop stewards (how many these days?) at least despise them.



Seven million (it used to be 12) trade unionists who are, and have been for many years effectively powerless, who can't even protect their pensions. Who are, the most of them, formally aligned to a political party that is overwhelmingly middle class and supports the cuts in their pay in public services and so on. And who, if opinion polls are to be believed are hardly immune to the anti-immigration stance that dictates core BNP policy either.


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

To nuance that: seven million with no pension capable of being protected; a middle class which is converting en-masse into the unworking class; and public services that are ceasing as their funding mechanism (debt transfer to the next generation) fails. But unionists are certainly sensitive to the value of a bit of organisation in service of pursuing a class interest.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2012)

So as we descend through the five rings of post-industrial hell, trade unionists, with their love of organisation and self interest, will fall into step with an emergent neo-fascist movement; where they will be joined by blood and soil eco-warriors? The only glimmer of hope in the impending apocalypse is provided by the recalcitrant stoic's beacon of rationality. I'm glad you're here Falcon.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Idris2002 (Jan 20, 2012)

Reasoning via historical analogy ("as in Weimar, so too in our period") is only helpful up to a certain point, and beyond that point actively impairs effective engagement with the realities of one's own time.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Reasoning via historical analogy ("as in Weimar, so too in our period") is only helpful up to a certain point, and beyond that point actively impairs effective engagement with the realities of one's own time.



It's certainly an odd thing to do you while simultaneously claiming that everything 'financial, commercial, political, social and cultural' (including the conditions which made possible the history with which the analogy is being made) is going to fall apart; this is known as Falcon's paradox.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> Reasoning via historical analogy ("as in Weimar, so too in our period") is only helpful up to a certain point, and beyond that point actively impairs effective engagement with the realities of one's own time.


Yes, but I'm not. Conversely, failing to recognise that our own time has no analogy is fatal to meaningful engagement. And there can be no greater disengagement from the realities of one's own time than the marvellously reassuring phrase: "This time, it's different".

Louis. Straw man argument. Engage with what I said, please, not with your fanciful distillations.


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## Idris2002 (Jan 20, 2012)

It's always different. Heraclitus taught us that, and that was a good three thousand years ago (roughly).


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## LLETSA (Jan 20, 2012)

Falcon said:


> The reason the Transition Movement does it is to try and figure out ways to mitigate their failures with alternative social arrangements. The reason the BNP are interested in it is to learn what they are. It's like someone else doing your homework. They are regular attenders at the meetings I've been to.



How widespread is this attendance, though? I went to a film showing they were advertising in a neighbouring area. The meeting was a bit of a shambles. The organisers arrived late and hadn't even set up the equipment so some of the locals left before it had even started. I'd gone along because the film they'd advertised was something apocalyptic and juicy-I forget what now, it was a while ago-but they'd somehow fucked that up and instead showed that Kunstler talk on the wastefulness of suburbia which you can see on YouTube. The discussion that followed was dominated by some bloke who was trying to sell them some corrugated iron for their allotment and two religious nutters who kept dragging everything back to Judgement Day. The organisers couldn't really handle them-the whackos were working class and they were teacher/lecturer types who clearly mix only with their own kind.* For that reason, I couldn't imagine them being too keen to deal with/tolerate BNP members either.

*The young woman was a very nice looking piece though.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2012)

Falcon said:


> Louis. Straw man argument. Engage with what I said, please, not with your fanciful distillations.



No straw men Falcon; just dissapointment that you won't be able to lead us to the promised land...for a moment there I thought you'd saved us all.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

Idris2002 said:


> It's always different. Heraclitus taught us that, and that was a good three thousand years ago (roughly).


It sounds like we are violently agreeing. Our time has no analogy. We can distinguish between observing certain properties of other situations, and asserting that the other situation is analogous. I think you made too much of the observation


LLETSA said:


> How widespread is this attendance, though?


Fair comment. Attendance is about what you would expect for the general level of knowledge about the basic facts and properties of our financial and energy system.


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

Louis your hostility is interesting. Can you explain a little bit more about why you feel this way? (I'm not being snarky - the psychology is fascinating)


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## intersol32 (Jan 20, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> How widespread is this attendance, though? I went to a film showing they were advertising in a neighbouring area. The meeting was a bit of a shambles. The organisers arrived late and hadn't even set up the equipment so some of the locals left before it had even started. I'd gone along because the film they'd advertised was something apocalyptic and juicy-I forget what now, it was a while ago-but they'd somehow fucked that up and instead showed that Kunstler talk on the wastefulness of suburbia which you can see on YouTube. The discussion that followed was dominated by some bloke who was trying to sell them some corrugated iron for their allotment and two religious nutters who kept dragging everything back to Judgement Day. The organisers couldn't really handle them-the whackos were working class and they were teacher/lecturer types who clearly mix only with their own kind.* For that reason, I couldn't imagine them being too keen to deal with/tolerate BNP members either.
> 
> *The young woman was a very nice looking piece though.



This sounds familiar. A few years ago we were setting up a local residents group and I received an invite to a meeting with a similar bunch of people. Real business suited types who tended to flick through a load of pie charts, Venn diagrams and use phrases that they seem to have made up.

It was obvious within five minutes that they hadn't a grasp of what was going on in the area. Afterwards they kept contacting the residents group in an attempt to set up more meetings, but by that time we were certain they were just a waste of time. At one point they even tried to get me to sit on some sort of committee they were arranging.

It was a load of bollocks. They were an odd bunch who essentially seemed out of their depth, and more than likely were failed office types who'd replied to some quirky add in the job centre for 'community liason' or something.


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## LLETSA (Jan 20, 2012)

Falcon said:


> It sounds like we are violently agreeing. Our time has no analogy. We can distinguish between observing certain properties of other situations, and asserting that the other situation is analogous. I think you made too much of the observation
> 
> Fair comment. Attendance is about what you would expect for the general level of knowledge about the basic facts and properties of our financial and energy system.



Presumably, among Transition types they don't bang on about immigration and suchlike for the reasons I've outlined. How in that case can you be sure they're BNP?

Having said all that, the middle class professionals who seem to dominate the Transition movement as with so much else on the green/ liberal-leftish scene are mostly anti-racist because they automatically absorb the fashionable notions of the day. If something happens to undermine the basis of these notions, this could change very quickly and I don't see why they would necessarily object to articulate and well-behaved fascists, especially if they were in broad agreement on a range of issues. 'Respectable racism' already seems to be on its way back (not that it ever really went away.) I don't know about anybody else, but I happened to start watching that Danish TV serial about the high-level political/journalistic scene over there currently being shown on the BBC (Borgen?) It's striking how politicians of all sides treat the leader of the neo-fascist 'Freedom Party' as just another politician. I don't know how accurate the portrayal is, but it's definitely what Griffin's BNP was aiming for.


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## LLETSA (Jan 20, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> This sounds familiar. A few years ago we were setting up a local residents group and I received an invite to a meeting with a similar bunch of people. Real business suited types who tended to flick through a load of pie charts, Venn diagrams and use phrases that they seem to have made up.
> 
> It was obvious within five minutes that they hadn't a grasp of what was going on in the area. Afterwards they kept contacting the residents group in an attempt to set up more meetings, but by that time we were certain they were just a waste of time. At one point they even tried to get me to sit on some sort of committee they were arranging.
> 
> It was a load of bollocks. They were an odd bunch who essentially seemed out of their depth, and more than likely were failed office types who'd replied to some quirky add in the job centre for 'community liason' or something.


 
I think the Transition types do mean well, and the work they put in does seem impressive (I know vaguely somebody who's been to have a look at their community allotments, as they invite people to.) I just feel it's destined to confine itself, partly deliberately and partly inadvertently, to the usual middle class liberal ghetto.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jan 20, 2012)

The Recalcitrant Stoic, by turns ladling out certitude and smugness. Personally comforted no doubt in these difficult times, but politically disabled in an age when (following RS's paradoxical lead) the necessities are mutual recognition and cooperation not hectoring leadership. But don't mind me, you carry on with being fascinated and tapping out your words of wisdom.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> Presumably, among Transition types, they don't bang on about immigration and suchlike for the reasons I've outlined. How in that case can you be sure they're BNP?


No, they make no contribution. You know who they are - it is not a secret organisation.

Transition cheerfully admits that it does not know "the answer", and Transition people cheerfully admit they are unqualified. How can it be otherwise - there is no precedent, and there are people now who would literally die if supermarkets and electricity stopped working. So its approach is to try and create a framework that organises lots of diffuse energy, figure out by trial and error what seems to work, and spread information to make learning as fast as possible.

But these are people who are growing their own food, building alternative currency systems and social support mechanisms, learning trades other than selling photocopy insurance, and reducing their dependency on systems that are, frankly, pretty ropey. If things go bad, they will be better placed. A lot of it is precisely the kind of thing they accused Maggie Thatcher of destroying with her "no such thing as society" philosophy. Labelling them as middle class twits is fun, but inaccurate.

You might feel there is nothing to worry about and that, even if there was, the Government are wise and qualified and foresighted enough to figure something out. Or you might feel that unfettered capitalism, the market, and human ingenuity will come up with something. In which it's easy to poke fun at it. In fact, I can imagine how it might be quite reassuring to. There is no doubt that getting involved is inconvenient.


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## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> But don't mind me, you carry on with being fascinated and tapping out your words of wisdom.


Well, I'm sorry you feel that way. It's an unpleasant subject and hard to talk about in a way that satisfies everyone.


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## LLETSA (Jan 20, 2012)

Falcon said:


> No, they make no contribution. You know who they are - it is not a secret organisation.
> 
> Transition cheerfully admits that it does not know "the answer", and Transition people cheerfully admit they are unqualified. How can it be otherwise - there is no precedent, and there are people now who would literally die if supermarkets and electricity stopped working. So its approach is to try and create a framework that organises lots of diffuse energy, figure out by trial and error what seems to work, and spread information to make learning as fast as possible.
> 
> ...


 
I don't think I've really poked fun at them: I've just describe my brief experience of the movement. And nor do I think there's nothing to worry about in terms of what you're saying. All societies have to collapse at some point, and who knows, what we're currently witnessing in the economy may be the start of it. The signs are not good.


----------



## Falcon (Jan 20, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> I don't think I've really poked fun at them: I've just describe my brief experience of the movement.


I didn't mean to imply you were doing wrong. I find involvement in it frustrating at times and I recognised the comments above. Transition is a (self-confessed) imperfect response, but better than nothing.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> On Manchester SP. The working class members of the branch formed a section of Manchester Anti-Fascist Alliance (plus others from other bits) and MAFA were able to bring in even more working class people into working class politics. All a chain.



MAFA also disbanded recently with a statement that not everyone agreed with. I wasn't aware that it was a specifically working class thing. If someone was in a "professional" with a mortgage and thus perhaps some bourgoise interests were they precluded from membership? Or was it just coincidence that none were?

I thought the MAFA leaflet was some of the best propaganda I have seen by the way.


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## Red Storm (Jan 20, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> MAFA also disbanded recently with a statement that not everyone agreed with. I wasn't aware that it was a specifically working class thing. If someone was in a "professional" with a mortgage and thus perhaps some bourgoise interests were they precluded from membership? Or was it just coincidence that none were?
> 
> I thought the MAFA leaflet was some of the best propaganda I have seen by the way.



There was no membership.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2012)

That's fair comment. I should have been more careful how I wo





Red Storm said:


> There was no membership.



fair enough. I should have worded it better. I appreciated what MAFA were about, how they came to exist and was sad to see them disband. I'm not sure really why they did and didn't find the closing statement too convincing. Perhaps there was something internal and undisclosed.


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## Red Storm (Jan 21, 2012)

The situation had changed too differently to what it had been when it was set up.

It had served its purpose


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## Gmart (Jan 21, 2012)

With voter turnout likely to go down in the next election, I would have thought that this would be an ideal time for the BNP to up the campaign rate. The immigration from the EU has stalled a bit with the recession, but with so many people losing their jobs it could be a period of growth, sadly.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2012)

Few things in life are certain, but the BNP will not win an MP seat next time out, or probably ever. Thank fuck. The far right probably need re alignment as much as the broad left. UKIP may complicate that for them even more than Labour and the SWP do for "us".


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 21, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Few things in life are certain, but the BNP will not win an MP seat next time out, or probably ever. Thank fuck. The far right probably need re alignment as much as the broad left. UKIP may complicate that for them even more than Labour and the SWP do for "us".



I'd say the left are in much worse condition than the far-right. The internet and other media may be buzzing about Griffin and pals mistakes, but as mentioned earlier, the left have little ability to step into the space that's there to try and represent the Working Class in their stead (in reality they seem almost criminally unwilling).

The Working Class across Europe are still prime for the Ultra Nationalist message, whilst the attempts of the left who were actually in government over the last number of years are being held responsible for its current problems. No one remotely associating themselves with these Parties will be trusted again for the next 50 years.

Even the large Anti-Capitalist protests and riots have not embedded themselves deep enough into either the consciousness, or every day community existence of the working class, to make a resurgent left a possibility.

To paraphrase Joe's comment earlier "they just aren't on the landings, but the far-right are".


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## intersol32 (Jan 21, 2012)

Gmart said:


> With voter turnout likely to go down in the next election, I would have thought that this would be an ideal time for the BNP to up the campaign rate. The immigration from the EU has stalled a bit with the recession, but with so many people losing their jobs it could be a period of growth, sadly.



Correct.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 21, 2012)

*intersol32*

_I'd say the left are in much worse condition than the far-right_.

I aint so sure. In electoral terms it would partially depend on how "left" you think Labour are and how "far right" you think UKIP are. There is general potential for a far right narrative, but don't overlook the sympathy that folks like UK Uncut and The Occupations have.

_...whilst the attempts of the left who were actually in government over the last number of years are being held responsible for its current problems. No one remotely associating themselves with these Parties will be trusted again for the next 50 years._

50 years is way too long to be talking about, but I get your point. Of course the idea that those governments were "left" is demonstrably laughable to many.

_Even the large Anti-Capitalist protests and riots have not embedded themselves deep enough into either the consciousness, or every day community existence of the working class, to make a resurgent left a possibility._

Hmm... I think the protests and riots could well lodge themselves in consciousness over the next few years. Things are hardly going to get better for people generally, but as you allude to ("criminally unwilling") it seems unlikely from where we are that an organised left would capitalise on it.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 21, 2012)

fascintating resignation from dave hannam on northwestnationalists forum. he resigned from the more general struggle last year. not posting link cos i get told off but well worth a squizz!


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## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> fascintating resignation from dave hannam on northwestnationalists forum. he resigned from the more general struggle last year. not posting link cos i get told off but well worth a squizz!


Whg can't you post the url while giving it an invalid hyperlink?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 21, 2012)

Gmart said:


> With voter turnout likely to go down in the next election, I would have thought that this would be an ideal time for the BNP to up the campaign rate. The immigration from the EU has stalled a bit with the recession, but with so many people losing their jobs it could be a period of growth, sadly.


and how do you propose the bnp finance this?


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## The39thStep (Jan 21, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> MAFA also disbanded recently with a statement that not everyone agreed with. I wasn't aware that it was a specifically working class thing. If someone was in a "professional" with a mortgage and thus perhaps some bourgoise interests were they precluded from membership? Or was it just coincidence that none were?
> 
> I thought the MAFA leaflet was some of the best propaganda I have seen by the way.



Reminds me I must decide whether to stick with a fixed term one or a tracker when I renew in March


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## malatesta32 (Jan 22, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> Whg can't you post the url while giving it an invalid hyperlink?



what on earth does that mean????


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 22, 2012)

hannams resignation letter!
http://nwnationalists.freeforums.org/dave-hannams-resignation-letter-t1605.html


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what on earth does that mean????



It means break the link by inserting a couple of spaces or summat. I'd do it now before we have the good people of nwn coming over and keeping us company.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 22, 2012)

Eg

http:// nwnationalists.freeforums .org/dave-hannams-resignation-letter-t1605.html


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2012)

no, it no longer works if you don't break it the first time. If you edit afterwards xenforo in its eagerness to please keeps it as a working link. You'd have to delete it entire then repost broken in a new post


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## Pickman's model (Jan 22, 2012)

You post the link while editing the url it goes to. There are two parts to a link - the text displayed and where it actually goes to. so you can have "this link" going to http , , and equally you can post a url which doesn't go anywhere





malatesta32 said:


> what on earth does that mean????


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> hannams resignation letter!
> http://nwnationalists.freeforums.org/dave-hannams-resignation-letter-t1605.html



Also check out Andrew Brons on his 'BNP Ideas' website (just google it). Headline article on a text message sent out to activists by Griffin. Appears to have got everyones back up.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 23, 2012)

am such a web pleb. need to get 'skilled up.'


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## barney_pig (Jan 23, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> Perhaps the left should have been present on those housing estates where many EDL or BNP members come from? Perhaps if they'd thought of a decent local strategy to deal with the kind of problems that Fascism thrives upon, they'd have been able to embed themselves within the community as a radical political alternative.
> 
> Had this happened the lads that are likely to turn up tomorrow night would have instead been there providing security for the event, rather than looking to turn it over!


But the left are present on these estates: from monday to friday 10.00 to 4.30 at least; they are the probation officers, the social workers, housing officers and social security staff, the teachers and truancy officers, the myriad faces of kid glove repression and panotopic control of the working class.
 on Friday afternoon they drive away from the estates to their edgy flats in their vibrant inner city areas, recently peppered with thrilling new bistros and art centres.
 on Saturday afternoons they come back, for an hour or two, hawking socialist worker and the socialist, its headlines declaring; _"YOUR sacrifice, YOUR suffering, YOUR blood, will bring US Victory!"_


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 23, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> But the left are present on these estates: from monday to friday 10.00 to 4.30 at least; they are the probation officers, the social workers, housing officers and social security staff, the teachers and truancy officers, the myriad faces of kid glove repression and panotopic control of the working class.
> on Friday afternoon they drive away from the estates to their edgy flats in their vibrant inner city areas, recently peppered with thrilling new bistros and art centres.
> on Saturday afternoons they come back, for an hour or two, hawking socialist worker and the socialist, its headlines declaring; _"YOUR sacrifice, YOUR suffering, YOUR blood, will bring US Victory!"_



Great response. Absolutely spot on.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> But the left are present on these estates: from monday to friday 10.00 to 4.30 at least; they are the probation officers, the social workers, housing officers and social security staff, the teachers and truancy officers, the myriad faces of kid glove repression and panotopic control of the working class.
> on Friday afternoon they drive away from the estates to their edgy flats in their vibrant inner city areas, recently peppered with thrilling new bistros and art centres.
> on Saturday afternoons they come back, for an hour or two, hawking socialist worker and the socialist, its headlines declaring; _"YOUR sacrifice, YOUR suffering, YOUR blood, will bring US Victory!"_



I think you will find that its about 3.30 Fridays and that most people off the estates will have to go to an office in the high street or centre of town these days.

and using a term like panotopic is really not on pal.


----------



## barney_pig (Jan 24, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I think you will find that its about 3.30 Fridays and that most people off the estates will have to go to an office in the high street or centre of town these days.
> 
> and using a term like panotopic is really not on pal.


Sorry, got over excited.


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## Red Storm (Jan 24, 2012)

UAF have begun their 'Griffin Must Go' campaign up in Manchester.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> UAF have begun their 'Griffin Must Go' campaign up in Manchester.



Go where? Do they want him repatriated to Wales?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 24, 2012)

They've started their campaign 2 years before the election? I can think of better things to do that would have more potential impact on the BNP vote in the NW than this. Always too good a contact/fund/member making/etc opportunity to resist for these people isn't it?


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## barney_pig (Jan 24, 2012)

Uaf desperate for funds rattle the bogeybones of cyclops


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## Red Storm (Jan 24, 2012)

They had a Gtr Manc conference last weekend. Now this weekend they're going leafleting in Newton Heath!


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> UAF have begun their 'Griffin Must Go' campaign up in Manchester.



Funny how a political slogan from an external left-wing opponent whose aim is to destroy the BNP seems to share its DNA and objectives with a protracted internal campaign by right-wing supporters to save the BNP.

Remember the scene from the Oliver Stone film JKF, where we discover that the pro and anti- Castro groups were sharing an office?

Just saying like...


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## malatesta32 (Jan 24, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Go where? Do they want him repatriated to Wales?



he is going mate! he'll be off to croatia next year to his retirment home!


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## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> But the left are present on these estates: from monday to friday 10.00 to 4.30 at least; they are the probation officers, the social workers, housing officers and social security staff, the teachers and truancy officers, the myriad faces of kid glove repression and panotopic control of the working class.
> on Friday afternoon they drive away from the estates to their edgy flats in their vibrant inner city areas, recently peppered with thrilling new bistros and art centres.
> on Saturday afternoons they come back, for an hour or two, hawking socialist worker and the socialist, its headlines declaring; _"YOUR sacrifice, YOUR suffering, YOUR blood, will bring US Victory!"_



with respect i don't think that's entirely true, i don't think you can say teachers, DWP staff etc aren't working class (although frequently they come from middle class backgrounds) but they're seeing attacks on pay and conditions etc same as everyone else, and what about teaching assistants and the like? i agree they often come from a relatively privileged position but to say they're not working class at all?

i agree with some of what you're saying, but in my SP branch we've got healthcare workers, council workers, builders, etc, no teachers or anything like that. and most of the people i know would despise gentrification and people who behaved in the way you described.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> he is going mate! he'll be off to croatia next year to his retirment home!



A lot of barns needing refurbishment out that way are there?


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## bignose1 (Jan 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> he is going mate! he'll be off to croatia next year to his retirment home!


Dubrov-nick


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## bignose1 (Jan 24, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> A lot of barns needing refurbishment out that way are there?


Fuck if its like his sprawl in Normandy circa mid 80's then that'll be mental...we had a poke round there and quite honestly it was like the Emmerdale farm set.


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 24, 2012)

I hope you were wearing respirators!


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## audiotech (Jan 24, 2012)

Quite, I heard the place was full of asbestos roofing sheets, with YNF members used to strip, then move it and no protective gear provided?


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## The39thStep (Jan 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> They had a Gtr Manc conference last weekend. Now this weekend they're going leafleting in Newton Heath!



which is the ward that the BNP  had their lowest vote in the last elections


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## frogwoman (Jan 24, 2012)

everyone's got to feel useful i guess!


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## Joe Reilly (Jan 24, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> which is the ward that the BNP had their lowest vote in the last elections



Maybe so, but it's still a step up from the ANL strategy of targetting predominately Asian estates.


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## Red Storm (Jan 24, 2012)

I'd be interested to know why they've picked Newton Heath.

Still not sure why they've started two years early. But here's why they've picked this weekend:



> North West UAF has called two Days Of Action this weekend, campaigning to get fascist Nick Griffin out of the European Parliament, and coinciding With Holocaust Memorial Day:



I wasn't going to put the email up on here but it looks like it's already on Redwatch


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 24, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> But the left are present on these estates: from monday to friday 10.00 to 4.30 at least; they are the probation officers, the social workers, housing officers and social security staff, the teachers and truancy officers, the myriad faces of kid glove repression and panotopic control of the working class.
> on Friday afternoon they drive away from the estates to their edgy flats in their vibrant inner city areas, recently peppered with thrilling new bistros and art centres.
> on Saturday afternoons they come back, for an hour or two, hawking socialist worker and the socialist, its headlines declaring; _"YOUR sacrifice, YOUR suffering, YOUR blood, will bring US Victory!"_



Have you finally gone mad? You're a canny fella but really

I don't know any people in those occupations who are SWP members, or who live in edgy "cool" flats in vibrant areas - are you really saying housing officers and DWP workers are either the forces of repression or generally "lefties"? How many working class people are we going to add to the shit list? It used to just be bailiffs, screws, and coppers!


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## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Have you finally gone mad? You're a canny fella but really
> 
> I don't know any people in those occupations who are SWP members, or who live in edgy "cool" flats in vibrant areas - are you really saying housing officers and DWP workers are either the forces of repression or generally "lefties"? How many working class people are we going to add to the shit list? It used to just be bailiffs, screws, and coppers!



I think he has overdosed on Foucault


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## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I'd be interested to know why they've picked Newton Heath.
> 
> Still not sure why they've started two years early. But here's why they've picked this weekend:
> 
> I wasn't going to put the email up on here but it looks like it's already on Redwatch



Best chance is to call for a vote for UKIP in the North West.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 26, 2012)

rather amusing snippet:
http://twitpic.com/8bo3g2
from us:
'Kieran Trent, the much vaunted rising star of the BNP’s youth wing, has had a terrible week. Little Twunt has been having an affair with Cheryl ‘Well’ Dunn and was on the receiving end of a pasting from her ex, who is now in prison. Chezzer’s ex is a fairly ‘colourful’ (though mostly white!) character called Peter King who she claims was abusive towards her and her kids as well as a previous partner. Twunt has also been pictured giving ‘a Roman salute’ – which his supporters have claimed is a photo-shopped Searchlight plot. Twunt is depicted looking straight at the camera with his right arm fully outstretched in the classic Hitler pose. No amount of ‘it must have been taken out of context’ justifies this. He’s a Nazi! He has also been depicted in front of ‘White Pride’ and loyalist flags and also with BNP ‘defector’ Chris Beverley holding English Democrat propaganda. Is he a little confused? There is a particularly scabrous slanging match on VNN UK Nazi forum between Cheryl and her detractors which is most amusing. '


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## Red Storm (Jan 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Best chance is to call for a vote for UKIP in the North West.



Weren't the Greens harping about No2EU stealing votes from them and thus allowing the BNP to just pip them to the seat?


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## The Black Hand (Jan 26, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> To paraphrase Joe's comment earlier "they just aren't on the landings, but the far-right are".



But they are incoherent idiots with no ability.  You and Joe are overplaying, 'bigging up', the far right, and playing down the left (and anarchist) working class traditions. Come along to the Durham Miners Gala in July and amongst the 100k present try to find some far right (you maybe able to find a couple btw).


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## The Black Hand (Jan 26, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't think you can denounce the IWCA as 'ultra-left'. Furthermore, considering how small they were they managed to achieve results in local elections which would make the trotskyist left have a wet dream. Most on the far left either ignored the IWCA's results or said they weren't relevant because they wasn't a socialist vote.
> 
> I'm just waiting for a new Black Panther Party of Self Defence (with every reference to black changed to working class, except in the name).


There have been others who have achieved those results, mainly community groups or independents who put work in (not related to the IWCA). The IWCA are ultra left 'cos all else has failed' and they go it alone (for 20 years in 3 areas. the 3 they started in), that is ultra left by definition.


----------



## The Black Hand (Jan 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> why didn't we listen to you 20 years ago?


You've cut your own path, well done. I'm just continuing to point out the flaws in my usual manner
My mantra is that class consciousness is constructed on the battleground of class struggle - & not localised pure political groups. Not enough people/groups have been encouraging and/or participating in class struggle and therefore we shouldn't be surprised there is fragmentation. The solution IS _*unity*_ in practice across the board, not some pseudo ideal type working class localised politics (which is just another form of fragmentation).


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## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2012)

And how are you helping this manifest itself in your neck of the woods?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> But they are incoherent idiots with no ability.  You and Joe are overplaying, 'bigging up', the far right, and playing down the left (and anarchist) working class traditions. Come along to the Durham Miners Gala in July and amongst the 100k present try to find some far right (you maybe able to find a couple btw).


to paraphrase stalin, how many divisions does tradition have?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> which is the ward that the BNP had their lowest vote in the last elections



Not counting the vast majority of wards in which they didn't stand at all, but you are right that it is an odd choice on the face of it.


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## Casually Red (Jan 26, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Quite, I heard the place was full of asbestos roofing sheets, with YNF members used to strip, then move it and no protective gear provided?



fucking excellent . Wish id thought of that .


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> with respect i don't think that's entirely true, i don't think you can say teachers, DWP staff etc aren't working class (although frequently they come from middle class backgrounds) but they're seeing attacks on pay and conditions etc same as everyone else, and what about teaching assistants and the like? i agree they often come from a relatively privileged position but to say they're not working class at all?
> 
> i agree with some of what you're saying, but in my SP branch we've got healthcare workers, council workers, builders, etc, no teachers or anything like that. and most of the people i know would despise gentrification and people who behaved in the way you described.


I'd hope all the people you know would despise gentrification


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## Casually Red (Jan 26, 2012)

jesus christ i almost feel sorry for those young NF chaps . Having to strip Griffins asbestos roofs one minute and climb Martin Websters wishing tree the next . Most likely without protection in either instance.


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## Red Storm (Jan 26, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> There have been others who have achieved those results, mainly community groups or independents who put work in (not related to the IWCA). The IWCA are ultra left 'cos all else has failed' and they go it alone (for 20 years in 3 areas. the 3 they started in), that is ultra left by definition.



Yeah some groups have achieved similar results, one being the Community Action Party in Wigan and Salford. However this doesn't detract from impressive results where the far left has often failed. 

I agree the IWCA does seem to right off socialism but that isn't ultra leftism, far from it in fact. The IWCA did start, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, as a coalition between Red Action and some other grouplets. Though i thought it was strange. Also working in local areas isn't a bad thing. Most left groups are strongest in a certain area, I.e. Militant and Liverpool and SPEW and Coventry. 

None of your arguments are the definition of ultra leftism.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jan 26, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> There have been others who have achieved those results, mainly community groups or independents who put work in (not related to the IWCA). The IWCA are ultra left 'cos all else has failed' and they go it alone (for 20 years in 3 areas. the 3 they started in), that is ultra left by definition.



The IWCA started pilot schemes in inner Glasgow, Hatfield, Islington, Hackney, Havering, Nottingham, Newtown in Birmingham, Manchester, Thurrock and in a series of wards in Oxford. Not all stood candidates. Not all lasted the course. It was in 2002 that the IWCA first stood candidates. The last election contested was in 2008.  From 2002 -2008 the average return was around 25%. Including 4 Cllrs and a 100 votes shy of two others in Clerkewell and Hackney. Meanwhile In Havering in the IWCA candidates in just two wards took 5,000 votes, roughly half of what the SLP took nationally. Guess who still has high hopes for the SLP?

PS:
{ BH plainly isn't numerate and has an unfortunate tendency to make things up when losing an argument, call people names and so forth, which some find very annoying.

However such behaviour though tiresome, can be more easily understood and forgiven, when you realise he really is only 6.]


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 26, 2012)

Problem, and this is general to all parties, is that they become victims of their own success if they get that far.

Success attracts carbet-baggers and more centrist influence. 

As I understand it, and I could be wrong, this seems to have been a factor in the development of Wigan CAP.


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## Red Storm (Jan 26, 2012)

I'm not sure what's going on with CAP at the moment. 

I do know that they are in a bizarre alliance with the English Democrats in the campaign for an elected mayor for Salford


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## josef1878 (Jan 26, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Yeah some groups have achieved similar results, one being the Community Action Party in Wigan and Salford. However this doesn't detract from impressive results where the far left has often failed.
> 
> I agree the IWCA does seem to right off socialism but that isn't ultra leftism, far from it in fact. The IWCA did start, I believe, correct me if I'm wrong, as a coalition between Red Action and some other grouplets. Though i thought it was strange. Also working in local areas isn't a bad thing. Most left groups are strongest in a certain area, I.e. Militant and Liverpool and SPEW and Coventry.
> 
> None of your arguments are the definition of ultra leftism.



The CAP in Wigan? Your having a fucking laugh. A bigger bunch of jokers i have never seen in this town. I have known a few of the people elected in their name and believe me it's self and not community they are interested in. Daily Mail believers to the core. More splits and splinter groupings than the far left. Law and order must be upheld unless it's spending all day drinking at a wake and then driving home with a senior council official at your side. They did a good job waving uaf placards when the bnp came to town and then did a runner sharpish when it got nasty. Do not hold them up as a good example of community organising.


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## josef1878 (Jan 26, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Problem, and this is general to all parties, is that they become victims of their own success if they get that far.
> 
> Success attracts carbet-baggers and more centrist influence.
> 
> As I understand it, and I could be wrong, this seems to have been a factor in the development of Wigan CAP.



Not centrist no. Right wing idiots.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 27, 2012)

josef1878 said:


> Not centrist no. Right wing idiots.


Sorry, you talking about Wigan CAP there? I'm not totally with the lowdown, but I know the original left tilt was severely diluted.


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 27, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Sorry, you talking about Wigan CAP there? I'm not totally with the lowdown, but I know the original left tilt was severely diluted.



Well I had a few encounters with CAP in Wigan as it happens, as Red Storm will probably be able to corroborate. I remember them standing alongside RESPECT, SPEW and some other left-wing groups in a mini united-front thing called Wigan People's Alliance in the 2009, I was at the launch at Wigan Labour Club in fact, and at that time they were very keen to appear left-wing, but how deep those tendencies actually went I'm not sure about. They definitely did manage to put up a decent electoral challenge to the BNP, and were absolutely hated by the local BNP for this as I recall.I also recall meeting a few other members at a meeting to do with the Tif bid referendum in manchester who didn't seem quite so left wing, so what you're saying about the CAP's right wing tendencies doesn't come as a surprise to me either. I didn't know they were working with the English Democrats in salford now, thats news to me.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 27, 2012)

Cheers Delroy. I was probably at that Tif bid meeting too btw. I know folk in the fairly new Wigan Green Socialists. I think quite they had a contingent who were part of CAP. They did more than decent, if I recall they had at least several council seats at one point - quite something for a local operation.


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## Red Storm (Jan 27, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Well I had a few encounters with CAP in Wigan as it happens, as Red Storm will probably be able to corroborate. I remember them standing alongside RESPECT, SPEW and some other left-wing groups in a mini united-front thing called Wigan People's Alliance in the 2009, I was at the launch at Wigan Labour Club in fact, and at that time they were very keen to appear left-wing, but how deep those tendencies actually went I'm not sure about. They definitely did manage to put up a decent electoral challenge to the BNP, and were absolutely hated by the local BNP for this as I recall.I also recall meeting a few other members at a meeting to do with the Tif bid referendum in manchester who didn't seem quite so left wing, so what you're saying about the CAP's right wing tendencies doesn't come as a surprise to me either. I didn't know they were working with the English Democrats in salford now, thats news to me.



Yeah I remember them being left-ish. We were asked to do security for that meeting because the BNP had disrupted an earlier meeting. Peter Franzen was particularly hated. 

I never kept up with them though. I know one of the guys running Wigan Green Socialists he's a sound guy. 

The CAP working with the ED is from a good source Delroy, you know him.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Jan 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Yeah I remember them being left-ish. We were asked to do security for that meeting because the BNP had disrupted an earlier meeting. Peter Franzen was particularly hated.
> 
> I never kept up with them though. I know one of the guys running Wigan Green Socialists he's a sound guy.
> 
> The CAP working with the ED is from a good source Delroy, you know him.



yeah I remember that, was the same the day we had a trip out to Wigan Mike's house?

Peter Franzen gave a banging speech at the Wigan People's Alliance thing, giving it 10-0 about Palestine, the BNP, New Labour, Academies, the lot. To the untrained eye it would've sounded like any other socialist speech. Although I remember speaking to Franzen and he was also convinced the security services were bugging his phone and other such stuff, so I dunno what to make of him tbh.

Now I think about it, there is some sense in them working with the ED's coz of this elected mayor business.  The ED's got a mayor elected in doncaster on a ritually low turnout, and no doubt the CAP see an opporunity for themselves there as well.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 27, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> yeah I remember that, was the same the day we had a trip out to Wigan Mike's house?
> 
> Peter Franzen gave a banging speech at the Wigan People's Alliance thing, giving it 10-0 about Palestine, the BNP, New Labour, Academies, the lot. To the untrained eye it would've sounded like any other socialist speech. Although I remember speaking to Franzen and he was also convinced the security services were bugging his phone and other such stuff, so I dunno what to make of him tbh.
> 
> Now I think about it, there is some sense in them working with the ED's coz of this elected mayor business. The ED's got a mayor elected in doncaster on a ritually low turnout, and no doubt the CAP see an opporunity for themselves there as well.



Haha forgot about that. 

Yeah I don't either to be honest. He was a bit of an egomaniac.


----------



## josef1878 (Jan 27, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Sorry, you talking about Wigan CAP there? I'm not totally with the lowdown, but I know the original left tilt was severely diluted.



I am yes. Was there ever a left tilt?


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## josef1878 (Jan 27, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Peter Franzen was particularly hated


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## josef1878 (Jan 27, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> yeah I remember that, was the same the day we had a trip out to Wigan Mike's house?
> 
> Although I remember speaking to Franzen and he was also convinced the security services were bugging his phone and other such stuff, so I dunno what to make of him tbh.



I wouldn't be surprised if he pops up here, megaphone in hand and a few leaflets to hand out. Think he stood down and his daughter Louise stood in his place.

Wigan Mike lived in Leigh, nobody from Leigh admits to being from Wigan.


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## Delroy Booth (Jan 27, 2012)

What you on about lad?


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 28, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Now I think about it, there is some sense in them working with the ED's coz of this elected mayor business. The ED's got a mayor elected in doncaster on a ritually low turnout, and no doubt the CAP see an opporunity for themselves there as well.



Not quite worthy of a separate thread, but Salford voted to have an a elected mayor last night on a 15% turnout.


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## josef1878 (Jan 28, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> What you on about lad?



Wigan CAP are not a good example of community organising. They are a good example of tories sneaking in through the back door on a 'community' ticket. I know where 'Wigan' Mike lived and it was in Leigh. Outsiders may not know the difference. hth.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 28, 2012)

Little more than email based rumour, but interesting nonetheless, especially regarding the admittance of the decline of the EDL.

http://www.blottr.com/uk/breaking-news/exclusive-british-far-right-about-merge


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## malatesta32 (Jan 28, 2012)

yet another call for far right unity. and then they all fall out!


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## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> yet another call for far right unity. and then they all fall out!



isn't that pretty much where the left and anrchists are at?


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## malatesta32 (Jan 28, 2012)

there arent those desperate calls for unity tho are there? folk tend to just get on with their own thing locally - whether its antifash, occupy, anticuts or other issues with their own groups. big turnouts like the anticuts demo last year are something way beyond the abilities of the fash.


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## frogwoman (Jan 28, 2012)

also there isn't the fatal (literally) consequences in an anarcho/trot split that a fash split can have. Have any trot parties' members ended up killing each other over their differences on the transitional programme? I don't think so.


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## Red Storm (Jan 28, 2012)

josef1878 said:


> Wigan CAP are not a good example of community organising. They are a good example of tories sneaking in through the back door on a 'community' ticket. I know where 'Wigan' Mike lived and it was in Leigh. Outsiders may not know the difference. hth.



Were talking about Wigan Mike the mad Neo nazi. Is that who you are talking about?


----------



## josef1878 (Jan 28, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Were talking about Wigan Mike the mad Neo nazi. Is that who you are talking about?



Yes


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## malatesta32 (Jan 28, 2012)

wigan mike fresh out of the pokey. some old blokes never know when to pack it in.
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/aryan-strike-farce/
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2010/08/12/nazis-jailed/


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## Red Storm (Jan 28, 2012)

I've seen him once in Wigan. Drove past him. He is a big cunt.

Do the older urbs know if he was about back in the day?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 30, 2012)

Ex-BNP chiefs accused of £1m fraud on GLA and taxman 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ccused-of-pound-1m-fraud-on-gla-and-taxman.do


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## DaveCinzano (Jan 30, 2012)

Here's Eddy Butler's take on it, spilling bean-by-bean:

http://eddybutler.blogspot .com/2012/01/gla-in-news.html


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## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Here's Eddy Butler's take on it, spilling bean-by-bean:
> 
> http://eddybutler.blogspot .com/2012/01/gla-in-news.html



In the comments sections in the next article down on Butlers blog is a response to the present recession:

Bring back manufacturing to England.
Double the minimum wage
Exposing the Banksters bailout and bonuses
Quantitative easing ( Printing Money, buy, buy savings)

One of the things that 'anti fascists'  miss when discussing the far right is that not only do they chime with sentiments on the EU, immigration, Islam but also on the economy.

Butlers comments on the BNP's decline might contain some sour grapes but  he does provide some insight:



> The fundamental reason is that the inherent weaknesses and contradictions that exist within a fringe and unnecessarily ‘extreme’ party came home to roost.
> 
> The BNP never shook off its ‘far far right’ legacy. It had positioned itself on the margins of society and attracted far too many fringe players and not enough people who were grounded and ‘normal’


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 5, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> to paraphrase stalin, how many divisions does tradition have?


 your catchphrases Pickyman are irrelevant. But really, you agree with me, thats the fragmentation I spoke of in my earlier post.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 5, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The IWCA started pilot schemes in inner Glasgow, Hatfield, Islington, Hackney, Havering, Nottingham, Newtown in Birmingham, Manchester, Thurrock and in a series of wards in Oxford. Not all stood candidates. Not all lasted the course. It was in 2002 that the IWCA first stood candidates. The last election contested was in 2008. From 2002 -2008 the average return was around 25%. Including 4 Cllrs and a 100 votes shy of two others in Clerkewell and Hackney. Meanwhile In Havering in the IWCA candidates in just two wards took 5,000 votes, roughly half of what the SLP took nationally. Guess who still has high hopes for the SLP?
> 
> PS:
> { BH plainly isn't numerate and has an unfortunate tendency to make things up when losing an argument, call people names and so forth, which some find very annoying.
> ...


I could never lose an argument to you lot, its so basic around here its embarrassing As you well know the discussions and events IWCA started in the early 1990s which is 20 yrs ago, so you're being disingenuous at least and positively muddying the water quite deliberately.  
You've mentioned areas which afaik have had very very little happening in them, to those with the bulk of your main groups in them, such as Oxford (one of the 3 core areas I identified), you've got next to nothing across the country and that is why I call it ultra left, the deluded belief, like some anarchists by the way, that their minute organisation is 'doing it'. This is just more purist fragmentation, as I have already said. The struggles lie elsewhere. I do not pretend there is an easy answer btw, but what I do know is that poverty of expectation leads to nowhere.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 5, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> I could never lose an argument to you lot, its so basic around here its embarrassing As you well know the discussions and events IWCA started in the early 1990s which is 20 yrs ago, so you're being disingenuous at least and positively muddying the water quite deliberately.
> You've mentioned areas which afaik have had very very little happening in them, to those with the bulk of your main groups in them, such as Oxford (one of the 3 core areas I identified), you've got next to nothing across the country and that is why I call it ultra left, the deluded belief, like some anarchists by the way, that their minute organisation is 'doing it'. This is just more purist fragmentation, as I have already said. The struggles lie elsewhere. I do not pretend there is an easy answer btw, but what I do know is that poverty of expectation leads to nowhere.


 
The people involved in the IWCA have always been quite frank regarding the limitations or mistakes that were made over that time period. The basic premise however was solid (that the Working Class needed an alternative voice rather than being told to vote Labour, vote for the usual 60's/70's lefty throwbacks or "vote for anyone but the BNP"). Pretty sure most can surmise that because the greater part of the Left have never been willing to accept this, it guaranteed that the success of the IWCA project would always be small.

Deluded, is defined in every post where you bang on about the bloody Durham Miners Gala being representative of some sort of bulwark against Fascist or Ultra-Nationalist ideas. It's a bit like saying that the collective number of folks who've paid for a Billy Bragg ticket during his career is indcative of how the people of this nation will never submit to Fascism.

You never had to be a member of the IWCA (nor Red Action previous to that) to agree with the analysis. That's why the appeal was originally sent out to other groups. We weren't so much thinking we were "doing it" but more of the opinion that "something must be done". Unfortunately, many of those groups declined to acknowledge it and felt safer retreating back into the routine of organising Saturday paper sales and 'Marxist Coffee Mornings'.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 5, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> I could never lose an argument to you lot,


that's because you're like the knight in monty python and the holy grail who shouts 'come back and i'll bite you' after having his arms and legs lopped off. you don't know when you're beaten.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Feb 6, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> As you well know the discussions and events IWCA started in the early 1990s which is 20 yrs ago...


 
Can you try that again using English this time. Cheers.


----------



## krink (Feb 9, 2012)

I know it's a long way from a return to the streets but I'm guessing it's been a long time since NG would have been happy to pose with this flag as he will know its common use as a white power symbol.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Feb 9, 2012)

It may be only me, but I detect a change of emphasis from NG.

In the past he denounced the EDL and BFP, even recently.

Now he appears to base his activity and wibble on whatever they are up to - the stance on the attack in Hyde being an even more recent example than the appalling behaviour over the Liverpool trial. ( I asked on his page if the BNP supported the long standing cherished British tradition of "innocent till proven guilty" - answer came there none)

With just over 2 years till he tries to cling on to his seat, and with various clusterfucks behind him, is it possible he is now just chasing votes from a fairly narrow bunch on the far right rather than any hope of broader appeal?

The 2 parties seeming most likely to deprive him of his seat are UKIP and the Greens, both of whom have upped their activity in the NW.

It is natural that he should indulge in electioneering, it is the character of that electioneering which is interesting. Will it succeed? Possibly. It will be fascinating to see if BFP field a slate and more fascinating to know of the BNP panic and possible discussions behind the scenes.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 9, 2012)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> With just over 2 years till he tries to cling on to his seat, and with various clusterfucks behind him, is it possible he is now just chasing votes from a fairly narrow bunch on the far right rather than any hope of broader appeal?
> 
> The 2 parties seeming most likely to deprive him of his seat are UKIP and the Greens, both of whom have upped their activity in the NW.
> 
> It is natural that he should indulge in electioneering, it is the character of that electioneering which is interesting. Will it succeed? Possibly. It will be fascinating to see if BFP field a slate and more fascinating to know of the BNP panic and possible discussions behind the scenes.


 
I think that Griffin has pretty much given up the BNP outside of the North West. He has Salford, Liverpool and Cumbria run by hand-picked morons and close allies, none of whom are particularly competent but they are loyal ie Tierney, Tumulty, Jefferson etc. Outside of that there's isn't much left in the BNP, and what little there is seems to be around Andrew Brons. I think he's just desperate to get re-elected into the EU parliament because it pays well, £120k a year or thereabouts, and he's not capable of other work, so he's clinging onto a few branches in the north-west, even if it means the rest of the party becomes moribund. 

Basically he's just in it for the money now.


----------



## krink (Feb 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> elected into the EU parliament because it pays well, £120k a year or thereabouts.


 
really? how do you get to be a euro mp then? that's 8 times what i earn.


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## audiotech (Feb 9, 2012)

It helps if one lies and cosy up to mugs like in the above image.


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## intersol32 (Feb 9, 2012)

It's a tactical move on behalf of Griffin and the BNP. Now the organization itself is fracturing they'll latch onto things like the EDL demo in order to retain a constituency of sorts (and maybe attract members from the EDL to boot). The EDL is a manifestation of the broad appeal of Right Wing or Fascist ideas. It wouldn't be wise for Griffin et al to start throwing dirt at the EDL as previous, instead it's better to cosy up and start talking "united fronts" which will maintain a degree of stability when both groups are undergoing pressure and fallouts from within.

I can imagine the Liverpool Court scenario and Hyde being replayed around the country. In areas where the BNP are weak or reluctant to show their faces, an EDL demo will provide numbers and impetus for them to come back out onto the streets.


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## Casually Red (Feb 9, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> none of whom are particularly competent but they are loyal ie Tierney, Tumulty, .


 
fuck me those irish names . Their ancestors..grandparents and even parents.. were shit on and worse by the likes of griffin.


----------



## Casually Red (Feb 9, 2012)

krink said:


> I know it's a long way from a return to the streets but I'm guessing it's been a long time since NG would have been happy to pose with this flag as he will know its common use as a white power symbol.
> 
> View attachment 16567


 
if ever there was a postcard for the master race...thats not it


----------



## 1%er (Feb 10, 2012)

Is there any indication that christian and christianity is becoming a bigger focus for the british far right groups being discussed in this thread?


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## intersol32 (Feb 10, 2012)

1%er said:


> Is there any indication that christian and christianity is becoming a bigger focus for the british far right groups being discussed in this thread?


 
It's possible Christianity is being used at present to bolster their Anti-Islamic stance (especially the EDL with their Christian - Crusader imagery etc). It'll certainly be used to highlight the differences in so-called British christian culture and an encroaching "alien religion".

Previously the BNP have been influenced and received direct support from American Far Right groups like the National Alliance. Nationalism in the U.S is heavily religious and Pro-White Christian, as you probably already know.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Feb 10, 2012)

I think that Dowson bloke, who seems (or at least seemed - he's the addlorries bloke) to have had a lot of influence within the BNP, is a conservative christian - pre-BNP he was best known as an anti-abortion activist.


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## Joe Reilly (Feb 10, 2012)

Casually Red said:


> fuck me those irish names . Their ancestors..grandparents and even parents.. were shit on and worse by the likes of griffin.


 
Griffin it itself an Irish name.


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## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2012)

Looks like an attempted partial return to the oldham/burnley tactics is taking shape, this time on the back of the edl mugs. Griffin publicising a 'stop racists attacks' demo in Hyde on the 25th.


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## The39thStep (Feb 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Looks like an attempted partial return to the oldham/burnley tactics is taking shape, this time on the back of the edl mugs. Griffin publicising a 'stop racists attacks' demo in Hyde on the 25th.


 
The Tameside attack has recieved quite a lot of coverage  with the victims family ( actually from Stockport, if they had been more local it could have had greater consequences ) saying it was racially motivated There could also be more to come out of the grooming investigations regionally as not only are there some more trials scheduled but also as govt policy on runaways and exploitation kick in.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2012)

krink said:


> really? how do you get to be a euro mp then? that's 8 times what i earn.


 
Big salary plus big allowances for housing, subsistence etc, and fairly lax (still!) expenses rules. If Griffin isn't rooking an extra £30,000-50,000 per annum of the Euro-Parliament, he'll be just about the only fucker who isn't.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2012)

1%er said:


> Is there any indication that christian and christianity is becoming a bigger focus for the british far right groups being discussed in this thread?


 
Nothing along the lines of US hard-right groups. In fact for the last 20 years or so, the two distinctive "pushes" haven't been towards Christianity, but toward first a Norse/"Northern Tradition" derivation, and later, toward a (irony of ironies!) Celtic one, due to the "new right" emphasis on "native" and "indigenous" culture.  A lot of European secular rightists still steer well clear of bogging down their politics in religion, which makes sense if you don't want to show yourself up for a hypocrite every time you open your arse to speak.


----------



## 1%er (Feb 11, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nothing along the lines of US hard-right groups. In fact for the last 20 years or so, the two distinctive "pushes" haven't been towards Christianity, but toward first a Norse/"Northern Tradition" derivation, and later, toward a (irony of ironies!) Celtic one, due to the "new right" emphasis on "native" and "indigenous" culture. A lot of European secular rightists still steer well clear of bogging down their politics in religion, which makes sense if you don't want to show yourself up for a hypocrite every time you open your arse to speak.


From what I've read and people I've spoken to, I got the impression that the far right on mainland Europe had started to move to a more religious focus and away from the racist focus over the last ten years or so, race is still clearly the main focus for many (my info comes mainly from Dutch and Germany friends). Maybe I misunderstood.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 11, 2012)

1%er said:


> From what I've read and people I've spoken to, I got the impression that the far right on mainland Europe had started to move to a more religious focus and away from the racist focus over the last ten years or so, race is still clearly the main focus for many (my info comes mainly from Dutch and Germany friends). Maybe I misunderstood.


 
Some of the religious focus is on pre-Christian "native" religion, though, or at least what they believe to be their indigenous pre-Christian religions, anyway. Right-wing flakes getting involved in neo-Paganism is getting to be old hat. The Christian thing is more of an issue for some of the eastern European and Baltic rights, and for those countries which have a large Catholic (the confluence between the hard right and the Catholic church hardly being surprising) majority anyway.  Anders Breivik made some noises about Christianity, but most of them were Crusader _schtick_ rather than any apparent adherence to Christian doctrine.


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## 1%er (Feb 11, 2012)

I thought it was because racism and immigration were sort of 20th century arguments and the far right had maxed out on the number of people they were likely to recruit from that pool and had moved to Christianity to try and widen their appeal and have Muslims as a common enemy. I'm thinking about the developed countries in the EU not the ex-soviet region or nouveau-eu as they were described to me recently


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## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2012)

The religious aspect - on a membership and activity level - is irrelevant to the far right. It has even less relevance to the general pool they seek to appeal to. The hardcore ideologues sure - but they're the ones who've been locked out of any significant influence in the rise of the far right, in fact it's been predicated on their exclusion from influence. Religion is not a driver of the far right, it's a just a surface expression of social issues - an easy flag to rally around and defend without looking and sounding like some wotan warrior clunking around with your armour being laughed out of boozer


----------



## 1%er (Feb 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The religious aspect - on a membership and activity level - is irrelevant to the far right. It has even less relevance to the general pool they seek to appeal to. The hardcore ideologues sure - but they're the ones who've been locked out of any significant influence in the rise of the far right, in fact it's been predicated on their exclusion from influence. Religion is not a driver of the far right, it's a just a surface expression of social issues - an easy flag to rally around and defend without looking and sounding like some wotan warrior clunking around with your armour being laughed out of boozer


Are you talking about the far right in the UK only or are you including Europe and worldwide in your above?


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 11, 2012)

I was talking primarily about the UK. But you can see examples of this sort of non-religous religion across europe.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 14, 2012)

BNP nutjob adam walker in court tomorrow in durham.
http://www.anti-fascists-online.com/2012/02/date-for-your-diary-15th-feb.html
waving knives at bmx kids!


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## ayatollah (Feb 14, 2012)

Whilst I acknowledge that plenty of the SS were practising Catholics, and that plenty of the Far Right US groups in particular have Far Right "Christian" claims in their bundle of ideological positions, isn't Christianity always a bit of an ideological bummer for the fascists .... because of that Jewish Bloke on the cross ? Most of the Nazi hierarchy quite correctly saw Christianity as a factional offshoot from Judaism historically - and therefore went for all that macho Nordic Paganist stuff instead. I know Fascism is a remarkably flexible system of ideas, but I think that its nowadays pretty firmly established fundamental hostility to the nature and "Jewish origins" of Christianity will always provide at least some difficulty to the fascists in holding themselves up as the "Christian " bastion against Islamicism (of course yet ANOTHER of the 3 world "religions of the book", ie, the Jewish old Testament essentially, as I understand it.) But maybe I'm being naive - historically fascism has been quite capable of arguing ten mutually contradictory positions at once - often quite successfully.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 18, 2012)

bizarre! fluffy british freedom paul weston to speak at the zionist centre toronto to the JDL. whatever happened to ZOG? this is too weird.
http://www.islamophobia-watch.com/i...y-leader-to-speak-at-jewish-defense-leag.html


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## The39thStep (Feb 18, 2012)

Had to smile at this: Harringtons wife ,Michelle Harrington  also known as Mish Bondage  has accused the BNP’s Andrew Brons of sexual and religious discrimination and unfair dismissal.

http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...s_into_city_bondage_punk_s_tribunal_1_2123362


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## malatesta32 (Feb 18, 2012)

steps, that has made me feel unwell.


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## The Black Hand (Feb 19, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> that's because you're like the knight in monty python and the holy grail who shouts 'come back and i'll bite you' after having his arms and legs lopped off. you don't know when you're beaten.


 Bollox Pickman, U and t'other ultra left nobs round here amount to nothing, serial underachievers, representative of nothing, that sees what it wants to see, that often organises nothing and certainly organises nothing ambitious, that tests nothing beyond the self referential gang backslapping and gangbanging. I do not need nor want your hot air, I've seen through it and many more have done and will too. I have far far better things to do than the Ultra lefties on U75 (and the limpcoks) there are.


----------



## The Black Hand (Feb 19, 2012)

intersol32 said:


> A) The people involved in the IWCA have always been quite frank regarding the limitations or mistakes that were made over that time period. The basic premise however was solid (_that the Working Class needed an alternative voice rather than being told to vote Labour, vote for the usual 60's/70's lefty throwbacks or "vote for anyone but the BNP")._ Pretty sure most can surmise that because the greater part of the Left have never been willing to accept this, it guaranteed that the success of the IWCA project would always be small.
> 
> B) Deluded, is defined in every post where you bang on about the bloody Durham Miners Gala being representative of some sort of bulwark against Fascist or Ultra-Nationalist ideas. It's a bit like saying that the collective number of folks who've paid for a Billy Bragg ticket during his career is indcative of how the people of this nation will never submit to Fascism.
> 
> C)You never had to be a member of the IWCA (nor Red Action previous to that) to agree with the analysis. That's why the appeal was originally sent out to other groups. We weren't so much thinking we were "doing it" but more of the opinion that "something must be done". Unfortunately, many of those groups declined to acknowledge it and felt safer retreating back into the routine of organising Saturday paper sales and 'Marxist Coffee Mornings'.


 A) That basic premis is sooo basic its abstract, you generalise far too much, and do not specify anything, its totally divorced from economics and struggles/protest, and any real group.
B) That's a straw man, not found in the reality of any of my posts.
C) Again, more simplistic generalisations, shouldn't that read 'next to nothing should be done' rather than "something must be done" btw? I know that's not genorous, but it seems more realistic in the totality of the real political picture to me.


----------



## intersol32 (Feb 19, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> A) That basic premis is sooo basic its abstract, you generalise far too much, and do not specify anything, its totally divorced from economics and struggles/protest, and any real group.
> B) That's a straw man, not found in the reality of any of my posts.
> C) Again, more simplistic generalisations, shouldn't that read 'next to nothing should be done' rather than "something must be done" btw? I know that's not genorous, but it seems more realistic in the totality of the real political picture to me.


 
Your posts would be fine, if they actually made any sense to anyone other than yourself. I think the above is what Orwell meant when he mentioned "political language" giving the appearance of solidity to pure wind.

It's a poor show when debate descends into theoretical and verbal gymnastics, rather than addressing the points with any substance.

Also, somewhat bizarre, you appear quite self-congratulatory when waffling about these theories of yours whilst making such basic errors as mis-spelling "premise" and "generous".

You're a strange chap, and I must say I'm quite bemused by the whole thing.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2012)

bizarre!
http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Art...folk/Ex_hooligan_and_hard_man_makes_pact.aspx


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## intersol32 (Feb 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> bizarre!
> http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Art...folk/Ex_hooligan_and_hard_man_makes_pact.aspx


 
Jesus fucking christ (literally).


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 19, 2012)

i know. this and paul weston from the fluffies talking to zionists has put me in right state!


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## Pickman's model (Feb 19, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> Bollox Pickman, U and t'other ultra left nobs round here amount to nothing, serial underachievers, representative of nothing, that sees what it wants to see, that often organises nothing and certainly organises nothing ambitious, that tests nothing beyond the self referential gang backslapping and gangbanging. I do not need nor want your hot air, I've seen through it and many more have done and will too. I have far far better things to do than the Ultra lefties on U75 (and the limpcoks) there are.


if that's the case, then

a) why do you bother posting here?

&

b) why did you bother replying to a post from two weeks ago?


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

a rare moment of clarity from BD forum. must get them to do a piece for 'malatesta blog.'
'I dont like Mark Collett. Not because ive ever met him but because of what he is. He is the problem with nationalism and whats held us back all these years. Not just him but many around him, Butler, Griffin, Dowson, Harrington, Barnes, Jefferson, Golding and many more all the way down to the bottom of the pile with the likes of Dalgliesh and Stafford. ALL these people are interested in one thing, themselves. They are the parasites that through their desire for greed, to self publicise, and to win one over on the other have destroyed what we once had. They are ALL to blame. Any comments on here are just me delighting in those getting just what they deserve ie me owning Collett on here, Butler getting a taste of his own medicine. We really have been lions led by sheep.
Why so bitter you ask? I put my whole life into the cause just to have it thrown back in my face. There is NO viable option for us now thanks to these ****. Heres a brief list of options:
 1. Stay in the BNP. No thanks its just a very expensive and shrinking Griffin cult.
 2. Follow Brons. He doesnt even know where he's going.
 3. English Democrats. Butler and Collett? Same iceberg, different ship.
 4. The party we cant mention. Interesting one. Stafford put me off this one initially with his constant ramming it down peoples throats but this partnership with the EDL is not built on solid ground. Barnes was a crackpot (and still is) and is still hugely influential on this.
 5. The EDL. Whats the point of travelling miles to be herded away from sight. The BNP and NF were doing it for years and look what difference its made.
6. Freedom Democrats. Haha behave.
7. Britain First. A great idea that has been bastar dised by Dowsons desire for money and Goldings desire for a job title (along with Howson).
 Nationalism has been run by egotists playing into the hands of our enemies for too long. Its about time that those of us who put the cause above ourselves tell the likes of Collett where to stick his leaflets!'


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## treelover (Feb 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> bizarre!
> http://www.networknorwich.co.uk/Art...folk/Ex_hooligan_and_hard_man_makes_pact.aspx


 
I think this is great, that a former nazi, hooligan, etc can turn his life around in such a way, though I notice he has joined the L/P, not much 'social justice' there at the moment


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

trees, hes a total fantasist - even the fash think hes a few intestines short of a haggis!


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## treelover (Feb 20, 2012)

http://www.edp24.co.uk/thetford_community_worker_to_carry_olympic_flame_1_1175006

btw, he is one of those who is going to carry the olympic flame..

he is a L/P councillor, a community worker, etc, six years ago he was living in the woods, that is some achievement...

and yes, he is a tinfoiler...


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## intersol32 (Feb 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> a rare moment of clarity from BD forum. must get them to do a piece for 'malatesta blog.'
> 'I dont like Mark Collett. Not because ive ever met him but because of what he is. He is the problem with nationalism and whats held us back all these years. Not just him but many around him, Butler, Griffin, Dowson, Harrington, Barnes, Jefferson, Golding and many more all the way down to the bottom of the pile with the likes of Dalgliesh and Stafford. ALL these people are interested in one thing, themselves. They are the parasites that through their desire for greed, to self publicise, and to win one over on the other have destroyed what we once had. They are ALL to blame. Any comments on here are just me delighting in those getting just what they deserve ie me owning Collett on here, Butler getting a taste of his own medicine. We really have been lions led by sheep.
> Why so bitter you ask? I put my whole life into the cause just to have it thrown back in my face. There is NO viable option for us now thanks to these ****. Heres a brief list of options:
> 1. Stay in the BNP. No thanks its just a very expensive and shrinking Griffin cult.
> ...


 
Amazes me how people join Fascist groups and then complain about a lack of democracy, and its attempts to create Cults of Personality within the movement.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

this is why so many join up and let their membership lapse. 1st they realise that the hardcore are nutters - imagine spending all night talking to someone like lecomber! - and that griffin is about as honest as nixon. complaining about fascist groups being authoritrian is like complainingthat drinking 10 beers makes you fall over. thats the point jimmy!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> http://www.edp24.co.uk/thetford_community_worker_to_carry_olympic_flame_1_1175006
> 
> btw, he is one of those who is going to carry the olympic flame..
> 
> ...


 
Where's the stuff about him being a tinfoil hat type?

To be fair to him, and reading past the shoddy writing in those articles, it does sound like he's done some decent community based stuff since getting away from the far-right. Whatever the limits he clearly has turned his life and ideas around and become a positive influence on his community.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

the stuff he was saying about working for israeli secret services, plod, terror groups etc.  i got the link from a nazo site and they were explaining what a fantasist he is. and if they think hes potty, he is!


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## frogwoman (Feb 20, 2012)

they think everyone is mad or a jew though.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 20, 2012)

Ah yes the stuff about working for Mossad, seems a bit unlikely, the SB stuff might be true though...


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> they think everyone is mad or a jew though.


thats cos they are froggy! dont you know!!!!! jewish islamist communist red searchlight photoshopping ira symapthising foreign the lot  of em!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Ah yes the stuff about working for Mossad, seems a bit unlikely, the SB stuff might be true though...


aye by saying' i worked for SB' means that he was compromised into giving over info. not unlike a certain mr tommy!


----------



## bignose1 (Feb 20, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Where's the stuff about him being a tinfoil hat type?
> 
> To be fair to him, and reading past the shoddy writing in those articles, it does sound like he's done some decent community based stuff since getting away from the far-right. Whatever the limits he clearly has turned his life and ideas around and become a positive influence on his community.


 Like a guy I met who said he made a fortune selling gloves...a right Walter Mitten. 
I worry about fantasists..got banged up cos of one.....oh and while Im on if DC/Demu reads this just to say the thief/fantasist who robbed a fair bit of till from the miners collections we did at the Poly during the strike ( we went to his girlfriends and Edge Hill College to ask for it back) Well he's alive and kicking in North Wales. TBC


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## malatesta32 (Feb 20, 2012)

hes back on and already the pun detector is smoking!


----------



## ayatollah (Feb 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> a rare moment of clarity from BD forum. must get them to do a piece for 'malatesta blog.'
> 'I dont like Mark Collett. Not because ive ever met him but because of what he is. He is the problem with nationalism and whats held us back all these years. Not just him but many around him, Butler, Griffin, Dowson, Harrington, Barnes, Jefferson, Golding and many more all the way down to the bottom of the pile with the likes of Dalgliesh and Stafford. ALL these people are interested in one thing, themselves. They are the parasites that through their desire for greed, to self publicise, and to win one over on the other have destroyed what we once had. They are ALL to blame. Any comments on here are just me delighting in those getting just what they deserve ie me owning Collett on here, Butler getting a taste of his own medicine. We really have been lions led by sheep.
> Why so bitter you ask? I put my whole life into the cause just to have it thrown back in my face. There is NO viable option for us now thanks to these ****. Heres a brief list of options:
> 1. Stay in the BNP. No thanks its just a very expensive and shrinking Griffin cult.
> ...


 
I just love all this !  It's "Life of Brian II - The Aryan version"


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## barney_pig (Feb 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> trees, hes a total fantasist - even the fash think hes a few intestines short of a haggis!


 malatesta you are rapidly becoming the John Laurie of U75


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## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> aye by saying' i worked for SB' means that he was compromised into giving over info. not unlike a certain mr tommy!


 
Well quite, I don't think he was an undercover officer, but they probably did get stuff off him.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 21, 2012)

barney_pig said:


> malatesta you are rapidly becoming the John Laurie of U75


aye thats cos we're doomed i tell ye, doooomed!


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 25, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Immediate aims - organisational consolidation, re-uniting the central group around a series of leadership compromises (for now at least), keeping an eye on where and how any right-looking w/c responses to austerity etc manifest themselves, slow steady rebuilding of local electoral apparatus in the key areas, with a consequent testing out of the approaches suggested by the above - i expect in a more racially overt way (as part of one of the internal compromises), *attempts to recruit any serious looking people from the EDL milieu.* Eyes on the metropolitan unitary and district elections in may, so starting this stuff very soon. Unless of course, one of the demands raised against griffin that he has to agree to to be able to get into a position to get rid of the dissenters at a later date is less emphasis on elections this year - don't expect that though.
> 
> Not really much substantive merger/unity stuff that can take place with the rest of the far-right given the BNP have hoovered up the best activists for the last decade - burnout or disillusionment on the part of these people will probably mean retirement of one sort of another - either total or within the UKIP or tories.


 
Today:

*An opportunity to be seized - Why we have lifted the proscription on the English Defence League*

Main article on main site.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 25, 2012)

BNP banners on the EDL rally today.


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## SpineyNorman (Feb 25, 2012)

So do you reckon it's simply an attempt to recruit the more politically minded EDL activists or do you think there's more to it than that? I don't mean a return to the streetfighter/march and grow tactics, more that they might be wanting to start having national and regional demonstrations or maybe even trying to push the EDL itself in a certain direction?

Guess I'm just wondering out loud here but I'd be interested to hear what people think about this.


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## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

they are trying to leech off the EDL - altho the EDL have been SERIOUSLY depleted recently. griffin may want to keep being MEP but the BNP are knacked financially - £850k by his own admission - so add a few bob on top of that. they are riven and the far right too spread to be effectual with all the wee grupuscules like the fluffies and that. courting the EDL, lifting the ban on members associating with them and piggy backing the Hyde thing have all the signs of desperation.


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## The39thStep (Feb 26, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> BNP banners on the EDL rally today.


 
Apparantly about sixty or so BNP members turned up mainly North West including Liverpool but also from Yorkshire and North East. Quite a shrewd if belated move from Griffin , the BNP have seen that the EDL membership is up for grabs and that politically the EDL aren't developing. He said that the BNP would be at the forefront of the grooming protests , against Mosques and extremism and they will have high hopes of delivering that now. Not only makes them visible but if they win some political hegemony; financially more viable with the potential to work on that protest vote for the Euro elections.

Could be some potential over the next months with more of these trials and investigations likely as Councils and Police  implement the
Tackling Child Sexual Exploitation Action Plans.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

oh dear: Griffin in my sex pest nazi hell expose!
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osed-glamour-model-car.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
apologies for the mail link! but is is rather interesting.


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly about sixty or so BNP members turned up mainly North West including Liverpool but also from Yorkshire and North East. Quite a shrewd if belated move from Griffin , the BNP have seen that the EDL membership is up for grabs and that politically the EDL aren't developing. He said that the BNP would be at the forefront of the grooming protests , against Mosques and extremism and they will have high hopes of delivering that now. Not only makes them visible but if they win some political hegemony; financially more viable with the potential to work on that protest vote for the Euro elections.
> 
> Could be some potential over the next months with more of these trials and investigations likely as Councils and Police implement the
> Tackling Child Sexual Exploitation Action Plans.


 
indeed steps. both are suffering in terms of popularity and numbers on demos and are desperate to widen their appeal. the pedos thing is emotive and they are OBSESSED with it. crivvens!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 26, 2012)

mind you seeing this ...


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## butchersapron (Feb 26, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly about sixty or so BNP members turned up mainly North West including Liverpool but also from Yorkshire and North East. Quite a shrewd if belated move from Griffin , the BNP have seen that the EDL membership is up for grabs and that politically the EDL aren't developing. He said that the BNP would be at the forefront of the grooming protests , against Mosques and extremism and they will have high hopes of delivering that now. Not only makes them visible but if they win some political hegemony; financially more viable with the potential to work on that protest vote for the Euro elections.
> 
> Could be some potential over the next months with more of these trials and investigations likely as Councils and Police implement the
> Tackling Child Sexual Exploitation Action Plans.


That's it in a nutshell. You're absolutely right in saying that it was a belated move - there were times over the last few years when this move could have taken place on the basis of the BNP's strength rather than weakness. Today it looks like they will need to allow the EDLs agenda to be the main driving force whilst they try and pick up people and influence - for now at least. Worth bearing in mind as well that many an initiative taken out of desperation has ended up being rather successful.

Other fronts, they are going to try and swing behind the march 7th fuel price protests - broadly in line with the social/class issues approach they've been trying to push recently.


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2012)

Griffin offering to pay Robert Downes' court costs. There will be/already is significant ramping up between now and May on this particular front (at least as much as they can).


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## The39thStep (Feb 28, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Griffin offering to pay Robert Downes' court costs. There will be/already is significant ramping up between now and May (at least as much as they can).


 
also opposing fracking and a new leaflet on Halal meat ( timely for the EDL recruitment?)


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## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2012)

Griffin already trying to drive a wedge betwen the harder eld types and the goons by arguing no-one but the leaders signed up to be stage props for a 'pc party' - i.e the BFP. Pretty naked. He's either going to be told to take a walk, opening up a wider rift, or some saps will fall for it. BNP get what they want and move on.


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## Casually Red (Feb 28, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oh dear: Griffin in my sex pest nazi hell expose!
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...osed-glamour-model-car.html?ito=feeds-newsxml
> apologies for the mail link! but is is rather interesting.


 
classy as ever


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2012)

Last night in Goresbrook (Barking and Dagenham):

Lab 1113 (57.8; +14.2)
BNP 593 (30.8; +3.5)
UKIP 91 (4.7; +4.7)
Con 81 (4.2; -8.9)
LD Robert Graham Hills 48 (2.5; -6.8)
[Ind (0.0; -6.8)]
Majority 520
Turnout 25.57%

Who is the opposition in B&D?


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## treelover (Apr 20, 2012)

Just watched the BNP mayoral candidate on DP, he came across as charming, well informed, far from bonkers, he is from Uruquay originally, though I wonder if he was part of the far right there,


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Last night in Goresbrook (Barking and Dagenham):
> 
> Lab 1113 (57.8; +14.2)
> BNP 593 (30.8; +3.5)
> ...


 
The BNP is claiming widespread postal fraud - alone they claim to have uncovered 120 dodgy postal votes - is there anyway this can be verified?


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## articul8 (Apr 20, 2012)

are they reporting it to the Electoral Commission?


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## Red Storm (Apr 20, 2012)

http://www.socialistworker.co.uk/art.php?id=28184

I can't believe the UAF/SWP are _still_ using the 'don't vote for Nazis' line.


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## The39thStep (Apr 20, 2012)

articul8 said:


> are they reporting it to the Electoral Commission?


 

They will hit the Council first.

We have seven BNP in our borough when we anticipated only two perhaps three, some new faces a which could be linked to the activity over the grooming cases in the North west or the racial assault in Oldham. they only got about 3% of the vote last time so not sure if this is more to do with building for the Euro elections. if they were canny enough they might want to put a candidate up for the GM police and Crime Commissioner in November but they might be wanting to see what Massey does after the Mayoral elections in Salford.


----------



## Red Storm (Apr 20, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> They will hit the Council first.
> 
> We have seven BNP in our borough when we anticipated only two perhaps three, some new faces a which could be linked to the activity over the grooming cases in the North west or the racial assault in Oldham. they only got about 3% of the vote last time so not sure if this is more to do with building for the Euro elections. if they were canny enough they might want to put a candidate up for the GM police and Crime Commissioner in November but they might be wanting to see what Massey does after the Mayoral elections in Salford.


 
Is your borough Stockport? I was surprised at the 7 candidates they've put up there. Never noticed them having much of a presence there.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Who is the opposition in B&D?


 
With no seats on Barking and Dagenham council it's not the BNP.


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## butchersapron (Apr 20, 2012)

audiotech said:


> With no seats on Barking and Dagenham council it's not the BNP.


I wasn't talking about the official council opposition. I was making a political point about what options people opposed to the council and the mainstream political parties have open to them and what (electoral) ones they are taking.


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## audiotech (Apr 20, 2012)

treelover said:


> Just watched the BNP mayoral candidate on DP, he came across as charming, well informed, far from bonkers, he is from Uruquay originally, though I wonder if he was part of the far right there,


 
This should go down well with voters:



> I am Argentine East, in other words, Uruguayan by birth, and I feel very emotionally linked to Argentina. In 1982 I volunteered to go to the Falkland Islands”.


Apparently, he also 'owned slaves' and 'met SS officers' in South America.

More here:

http://lancasteruaf.blogspot.co.uk/2008/05/daily-telegraph-part-deux.html

Here he is talking about "bloody immigrants" ("charming" fella). The irony eh? Comes across as a ranting loon in this:

http://www.nowpublic.com/world/carlos-cortiglia-bnp-mayoral-candidate-jan-2012


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## The39thStep (Apr 20, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Is your borough Stockport? I was surprised at the 7 candidates they've put up there. Never noticed them having much of a presence there.


 
They have had for years  but without too much local footprint more as a result of the national profile. The unit/branch was originally built around Richard Chadfield a veteran of the far right for years but the Griffinites forced him out.( Big Nose will remember him)

They held their Nort West meetings at a social club in Offerton untill the Council took the club back and around four /five years ago they got nearly 30% in a parish council election. Some recent  activity up in Woodley out of the race attack in Tameside but  little connection with the local EDL who mainly export their activity to places outside of Stockport

Duncan Warner is haphazardly the main  man now .An ex tory joined who has livened them up a bit. They are stalwart attenders at the RW&B .

Before Stockport  Antifa start dressing up and getting red and black flags out they really haven't quite turned to grow and march tactics..........http://www.bnp.org.uk/news/stockport-“old-timers”-man-bnp-stalls-bring-our-boys-home

We have got a couple of local Nazis though , there is 'Kruger' and his missus up in Brinnington and a neighbour of theirs a cockney bloke but they fell out after an unfortunate  episode of of 'amour' between Krugers misses and said cockney.

There is also a BM member over in Lancashire Hill  and a B&H member in Bredbury


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## The39thStep (Apr 20, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I wasn't talking about the official council opposition. I was making a political point about what options people opposed to the council and the mainstream political parties have open to them and what (electoral) ones they are taking.


 
Don't talk over his head


----------



## audiotech (Apr 20, 2012)

Hahahahaha. On cue.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 21, 2012)

What's with the BNP candidate Carlos in the London mayorality saying "give your 2nd prefs to Livingstone"?  Attempt to make a play for the disaffected Labour vote?


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2012)

Yes, and an attempt to counter UKIP. Griffin is currently pushing the line that the BNP vote is a w/c vote as opposed to the old colonel vote of the UKIP - he knows damn well that this isn't the true picture of the UKIP vote but needs something to put the w/c vote off them.


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## articul8 (Apr 21, 2012)

It is part of the UKIP vote!  The BNP mayoral candidacy is a bit of weird thing all round - a Uruguayian supporter of the Argie Junta?  Not the most obvious pole of attraction.   Suppose it's not impossible that BNP get a seat on the list.  UKIP's rebranding as a "Fresh Start for London" is quite clever though.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 21, 2012)

articul8 said:


> It is part of the UKIP vote! The BNP mayoral candidacy is a bit of weird thing all round - a Uruguayian supporter of the Argie Junta? Not the most obvious pole of attraction. Suppose it's not impossible that BNP get a seat on the list. UKIP's rebranding as a "Fresh Start for London" is quite clever though.


Who said that it wasn't part of their vote? What it isn't is a large part of their core vote in london given their relative rarity in that location. Which is precisely why the BNP are seeking to spread the idea that it is. You know -_politics_.


----------



## articul8 (Apr 21, 2012)

I'd reckon there was a fair few old-colonel types on the periphery - Harrow, Bexley, Wandsworth these kind of places.  Not enough to carry the day, granted.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2012)

Whether it's an indication of a political swing or not, the ballot paper for "London Members" in the local elections reads more worryingly than any previous one. Along with the usual Christian dingbats and indie loons, we've got the BNP, the NF, the English Democrats and (IIRC) UKIP (I've already filled my postal vote out and sent it back, hence the IIRC for UKIP).
First time, as far as I can recall, that there have been four *obviously* right-of-the-Tories parties contending for "top-up seats".


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 21, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> First time, as far as I can recall, that there have been four *obviously* right-of-the-Tories parties contending for "top-up seats".


 
Interesting, if there is a swing to the right from some quarters, it could be cancelled out electorally by splitting the vote too much despite the proportional nature of the election, however I would not be surprised to see UKIP getting some seats again if they keep their mouths shut.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Apr 21, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Interesting, if there is a swing to the right from some quarters, it could be cancelled out electorally by splitting the vote too much despite the proportional nature of the election, however I would not be surprised to see UKIP getting some seats again if they keep their mouths shut.


 
Yep, while I'm reasonably sanguine that such a choice will inevitably split the hard-right vote, I'm not sanguine that UKIP are going to see the bottom fall out of their world: The whole anti-Europe/anti-immigrant/anti-claimant/anti-welfare _schtick_ has too much of a history of playing well in some parts of London for them to do badly, especially when the "respectable classes" see them as merely being "more Tory than the Tories", rather than actively right-wing.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Apr 22, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Interesting, if there is a swing to the right from some quarters, it could be cancelled out electorally by splitting the vote too much despite the proportional nature of the election, however I would not be surprised to see UKIP getting some seats again if they keep their mouths shut.


 
With the Lib Dems currently placed to return just 7 MP's in a general election it again demonstrates that the default postion of the move to the right being a move further to the right. The numbers of right of Tory parties alone demonstrate this.

It also exposes the shrill and dangerously mis-leading optimism of liberal anti-fascism which routinely conflates the internal problems within the BNP with loss of support for far-right ideas generally. 

Not only is no evidence ever presented to show the public making any such connection, if the rash of race charges/accussations against the police, post riots, is anything to go by, the outlook is totally opposite.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2012)

Following the goresbrook result, they now also have their best opinion polling for some time - 6% in the midlands in yesterdays YouGov poll (pdf) - and that whilst UKIP also polled 10% in the same region.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 27, 2012)

articul8 said:


> The BNP mayoral candidacy is a bit of weird thing all round - a Uruguayian supporter of the Argie Junta? Not the most obvious pole of attraction.


 
Completely airbrushed from the BNP election broadcast.


----------



## butchersapron (Apr 27, 2012)

audiotech said:
			
		

> Completely airbrushed from the BNP election broadcast.


You mean the national party broadcast?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> You mean the national party broadcast?


 
I viewed it on-line. It specifically dealt with the London elections coming up.


----------



## treelover (Apr 27, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Following the goresbrook result, they now also have their best opinion polling for some time - 6% in the midlands in yesterdays YouGov poll (pdf) - and that whilst UKIP also polled 10% in the same region.


 

This is also while they have been said to have 'imploded'. There was a poll done last year? which showed over 50% would vore for a nationalist party if they renounced political violence, etc,


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Completely airbrushed from the BNP election broadcast.


 
They are not standing on a platform of back the Argies though are they ? Their line is the Falklands are British and the Govt should increase defence expenditure.


----------



## audiotech (Apr 28, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> They are not standing on a platform of back the Argies though are they ? Their line is the Falklands are British and the Govt should increase defence expenditure.


 
No need to state the obvious.

Their candidate from South America comes across as a liability on many levels, without including him volunteering to fight in the Falklands war on the side of a military dictatorship, i,e 'slave owner', apparently met with former SS members, ranting debating style and a "bloody foreigner" himself.


----------



## The39thStep (Apr 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


> No need to state the obvious.
> 
> Their candidate from South America comes across as a liability on many levels, without including him volunteering to fight in the Falklands war on the side of a military dictatorship, i,e 'slave owner', apparently met with former SS members, ranting debating style and a "bloody foreigner" himself.


 
Liability in this case will be the BNPs profile rather than the candidate.

You could probably make similar accusations about some of the FN's candidates in France but that doesn't stop them being elected.

 On the Falkland Islands question ,what was your position  when the war was on and now?


----------



## audiotech (Apr 28, 2012)

A load of old guano from start to finish.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Apr 30, 2012)

Breaking news: Mike Whitby the BNP Liverpool candidate has been arrested for electoral fraud.


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## Badgers (Apr 30, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:
			
		

> Breaking news: Mike Whitby the BNP Liverpool candidate has been arrested for electoral fraud.



Not their worst news this week


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## claphamboy (May 1, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Breaking news: Mike Whitby the BNP Liverpool candidate has been arrested for electoral fraud.


 
Looks like the Liverpool Echo has done a great job here...



> THE BNP’s Liverpool mayor candidate was arrested at his North Wales home on suspicion of electoral fraud – following an ECHO investigation.
> 
> Police broke down Mike Whitby’s front door today after he refused to cooperate for six hours.


 
He refused to open his door. 



> He was questioned at a police station in Wrexham on suspicion of making false statements and faking signatures on nomination election papers - an offence under Section 65A of the Representation of the People Act.
> 
> The ECHO alerted police after several Wavertree residents living in three neighbouring streets told our reporter they did not support Mr Whitby even though he claimed they had.
> 
> Under electoral law, a candidate must gather a proposer, seconder and 28 other signatures from electors in order to be eligible to stand as mayor.


 
He couldn't even collect 30 signatures of support, you couldn't make it up, although he did, allegedly. 



> Earlier this month the ECHO revealed how Mr Whitby, who lives in Wrexham, is only able to stand for mayor because he rents a redundant pigeon shed in the grounds of the Cricketers Club in Wavertree


 
Shurely, suitable accommodation for a bird brain?



> The ECHO also revealed how Mr Whitby is due to go before the Welsh equivalent of the Standards Board for England over a complaint that he brought the local parish council he sits on into disrepute by being jailed for two weeks last year for contempt of court.
> 
> Mr Whitby had been at the hearing in Birkenhead of a Wirral man who refused to pay his council tax, when a group of far-right activists attempted to “arrest” the judge for “treason”. Mr Whitby was jailed for refusing to give his name and address to the court.


 
Just to complete the madness, he appears to be a fucking Freeman. 

FULL STORY

ETA: Yep, the court demo was a Freeman fiasco, this BNP statement was posted on the David Icke forums:



> But Mr Hayes persisted and when he did not get an answer he was satisfied with, said: "Sir, I am obliged to arrest you for contempt of court and treason."
> 
> Two supporters of Mr. Hayes then attempted to arrest the judge but were stopped by police. More demonstrators then poured in and occupied Court Number One of Birkenhead County Court.
> 
> One demonstrator even took the judge’s seat, citing the right of a freeman to take over as Judge in a court if the Judge leaves! Police officers called for reinforcements and struggled with demonstrators. When one man was handcuffed, the crowd began chanting "take the handcuffs off".


 
http://forum.davidicke.com/archive/index.php/t-161125.html


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## Delroy Booth (May 1, 2012)

Interesting little digression. I don't reckon Mike Whitby is the only BNP electoral candidate who's engaged in this sort of thing with dodgy nominations, however usually it doesn't result in prosecution because those candidates who are unable to even get the handful of locals to sign their nomination forms never stand a chance of actually winning their seats, and councils who are aware of it tend not to prosecute because they don't want to turn someone who's politically marginal into a martyr for the far-right, which could lead to them becoming more popular. The fact Liverpool council and the ECHO are persuing this shows they're more bothered by the far-right than most nothern Labour councils are by the BNP.


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## Red Storm (May 1, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Interesting little digression. I don't reckon Mike Whitby is the only BNP electoral candidate who's engaged in this sort of thing with dodgy nominations, however usually it doesn't result in prosecution because those candidates who are unable to even get the handful of locals to sign their nomination forms never stand a chance of actually winning their seats, and councils who are aware of it tend not to prosecute because they don't want to turn someone who's politically marginal into a martyr for the far-right, which could lead to them becoming more popular. The fact Liverpool council and the ECHO are persuing this shows they're more bothered by the far-right than most nothern Labour councils are by the BNP.


 
I was surprised they bothered doing it too. 

Salford BNP regularly commit electoral fraud by lying about where their candidates live yet nothing has come of it. Probably because they aint gonna win anyway!


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## Delroy Booth (May 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I was surprised they bothered doing it too.
> 
> Salford BNP regularly commit electoral fraud by lying about where their candidates live yet nothing has come of it. Probably because they aint gonna win anyway!


 
Yeah Salford BNP was who I had in mind their nomination papers are a fucking joke, but the council won't do anything because they a) know they can never win and b) don't want to give them the publicity and ego boost that getting nicked would bring. The day they actually stand a chance of winning that'd be different, then they would, which is why the Liverpool guy getting done is interesting.

And it's not just Salford BNP mate you wanna see some of the blatant fraud that goes on in Yorkshire, or did rather as they don't seem to exist here any more, when it comes to nomination papers. Registering every single person in your branch at your address? That's routine.


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## claphamboy (May 1, 2012)

The Liverpool Echo made the complaint, leaving the police with no choice but to act.

Don't expect councils to complain, they are generally useless twats, make the complaint yourself or get your local rag to do it.


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## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah Salford BNP was who I had in mind their nomination papers are a fucking joke, but the council won't do anything because they a) know they can never win and b) don't want to give them the publicity and ego boost that getting nicked would bring. The day they actually stand a chance of winning that'd be different, then they would, which is why the Liverpool guy getting done is interesting.
> 
> And it's not just Salford BNP mate you wanna see some of the blatant fraud that goes on in Yorkshire, or did rather as they don't seem to exist here any more, when it comes to nomination papers. Registering every single person in your branch at your address? That's routine.


 
Is there a chance of that liverpool guy winning then?


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## claphamboy (May 1, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Is there a chance of that liverpool guy winning then?


 
No.

But, it wasn't the council that made the complaint.


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## frogwoman (May 1, 2012)

Didn't the English Democrats get one of theirs to be Mayor of Doncaster one year? 

If a fash party (not that the BNP is really fascist these days but anyway) got someone elected as mayor what would be the response from the council etc?  Would they actually try and depose them?


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 1, 2012)

The Mayor of Donny is an English Democrat yes.


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## audiotech (May 1, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> And it's not just Salford BNP mate you wanna see some of the blatant fraud that goes on in Yorkshire, or did rather as they don't seem to exist here any more, when it comes to nomination papers. Registering every single person in your branch at your address? That's routine.


 
Paul Cromie of Bradford BNP was under investigation by legal officers, after it came to light that he gave Xmas cards, each containing £5 "gifts", to 210 pensioners in a sheltered housing scheme.

http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/576/pensioners-appalled-at-bnp-councillor


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## Delroy Booth (May 1, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> Is there a chance of that liverpool guy winning then?


 
No I don't think there is, however i think the Labour council in Liverpool are more aware of the threat the far-right poses than your average nothern Labour council just because of how active fascist groups have been. Then of course you have the fact that the BNP tried having their annual conference in the city this year, which clearly pissed off the bigwigs in the council. That might be why this is has come about, whereas the dozens of other accounts of BNP electoral fraud are ignored.


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## A-C (May 2, 2012)

Election fraud is actually a really serious crime, I'm surprised if Councils aren't taking it seriously. I agree, make a complaint or get the local paper to, the police can't ignore it then.


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## frogwoman (May 2, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> No I don't think there is, however i think the Labour council in Liverpool are more aware of the threat the far-right poses than your average nothern Labour council just because of how active fascist groups have been. Then of course you have the fact that the BNP tried having their annual conference in the city this year, which clearly pissed off the bigwigs in the council. That might be why this is has come about, whereas the dozens of other accounts of BNP electoral fraud are ignored.


 
As a hypothetical situation, what would happen if the BNP or another fash party, say the NF, got control of a council? Assuming they made cuts, didnt set "needs budgets" etc and generally followed the cuts programme would the government / the county councillors try to get rid of them? The FN etc have controlled a few councils havent they?


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## Delroy Booth (May 2, 2012)

It's really hard to say because the BNP are a different thing to the Front National. The FN are at least competent, which is something that couldn't be said for the BNP or NF in this country. You also have to remember that local government in this country is incredibly weak when compared to other parts of Europe, central government has a great deal of control over what is permittable at local council level. My belief is that if the BNP ever did win a council, and Stoke and Dagenham and Barking nearly ended up with BNP councils not too very long ago, that the absolute incompetence of the BNP would lead to the council being suspended and taken over by central government very quickly indeed, even if they did follow the cuts programme. The Tories would have no problem doing this, historically centre-right parties have only gone into deals with fascists when Capital has been under serious threat from the left, it was this that led to all the big businesses in germany in the early part of the 1930's following the world depression to start funding the Nazi's, as they saw them as a bulwark against communism. No such communist or socialist threat exists today so I don't think that sort of arrangement would take place. Even in France the FN may be able to get a high vote, 18%, but they don't get 18% of the political funding available and they don't come close to matching the sort of big corporate donations that the UMP (Sarkozy's lot) can get. That matters a lot in bourgeois liberal democracy.


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## Red Storm (May 3, 2012)

A-C said:


> Election fraud is actually a really serious crime, I'm surprised if Councils aren't taking it seriously. I agree, make a complaint or get the local paper to, the police can't ignore it then.


 
Salford council do know about the electoral fraud of Salford BNP. The house the candidates are being registered to is a council house too, so they know who is and is not living there.

They'll act on it when it suits them.


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## Badgers (May 4, 2012)

They have had a great couple of weeks  any seats yet?


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## Gingerman (May 4, 2012)

Badgers said:


> They have had a great couple of weeks  any seats yet?


 http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/...griffin-with-bnp-set-to-lose-all-their-seats/


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## Gingerman (May 4, 2012)

Even by their dismal standards their performance in the London Mayoral election has been  spectacularly awful,comming last


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## Badgers (May 4, 2012)

Gingerman said:
			
		

> Even by their dismal standards their performance in the London Mayoral election has been  spectacularly awful,comming last



Great isn't it. I could almost see Billy Bragg smiling as he wrote his tweets today


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## ayatollah (May 4, 2012)

So I assume that we ALL now , at last recognise that the much vaunted, "unstoppable" rise of the BNP ....to mirror the success of the French NF - on the back of its shift from "march and build" street action into respectable local goverment oriented and parliamentary electoralism, now lies in complete ruins ?

As the many splinters from this failed strategy, including obviously the EDL, do increasingly engage in street provocations, marches, stunts, attacks on the Left and minority communitites, I hope there will be a lot less of the rubbishing of the role of anti fascist organisation in its many forms by some of the regular (often ironically  ex RA) posters on here in future.

Your analysis was right for a period guys.. but now history and politics, and REALITY, as ever, has moved on. I suggest you re-read the stuff about the unstoppable rise of the BNP posted at the start of this thread - and curl up with embarrassment !

This doesn't of course negate the need for the Left to engage with local communities at local level, - with SOCIALIST politics... but it certainly DOES also mean that in the immediate future the Left  ALSO has to reconstruct its anti fascist structures and operational practices at local level too - or be driven off the streets and meeting places by renewed fascist direct action.. in fact it's already started - as reports on Urban clearly show.


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 4, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> So I assume that we ALL now , at last recognise that the much vaunted, "unstoppable" rise of the BNP ....to mirror the success of the French NF - on the back of its shift from "march and build" street action into respectable local goverment oriented and parliamentary electoralism, now lies in complete ruins ?
> 
> As the many splinters from this failed strategy, including obviously the EDL, do increasingly engage in street provocations, marches, stunts, attacks on the Left and minority communitites, I hope there will be a lot less of the rubbishing of the role of anti fascist organisation in its many forms by some of the regular (often ironically ex RA) posters on here in future.
> 
> ...


 
Clearly you have learnt nothing...


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## Badgers (May 4, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:
			
		

> Clearly you have learnt nothing...



Seems like a good rant. I only skim read it after the first sentence.


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## Spanky Longhorn (May 4, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Seems like a good rant. I only skim read it after the first sentence.


 
It is a good rant, and I did not agree with those who said the BNP would recover from previous problems - I always said that there was a very good chance of them entering a spiral of decline.

However as always the danger of a big electoral defeat and virtual collapse of the main far-right party masks the real issues for many anti-fascists: there is not especially a need for anti-fascism but a need for build a pragmatic, broad and progressive movement for working class power - these elections were not a defeat for far-right ideas or a victory for working class anti-fascism, the turn out was low, and thousands of people still voted for far right candidates.

The ideas that brought the BNP to prominance and the social issues driving them have not gone away, and infact all the evidence seems to show that they have worsened.


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## butchersapron (May 4, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> So I assume that we ALL now , at last recognise that the much vaunted, "unstoppable" rise of the BNP ....to mirror the success of the French NF - on the back of its shift from "march and build" street action into respectable local goverment oriented and parliamentary electoralism, now lies in complete ruins ?
> 
> As the many splinters from this failed strategy, including obviously the EDL, do increasingly engage in street provocations, marches, stunts, attacks on the Left and minority communitites, I hope there will be a lot less of the rubbishing of the role of anti fascist organisation in its many forms by some of the regular (often ironically ex RA) posters on here in future.
> 
> ...


The NEED to VOTE tusc


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## butchersapron (May 4, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> So I assume that we ALL now , at last recognise that the much vaunted, "unstoppable" rise of the BNP ....to mirror the success of the French NF - on the back of its shift from "march and build" street action into respectable local goverment oriented and parliamentary electoralism, now lies in complete ruins ?
> 
> As the many splinters from this failed strategy, including obviously the EDL, do increasingly engage in street provocations, marches, stunts, attacks on the Left and minority communitites, I hope there will be a lot less of the rubbishing of the role of anti fascist organisation in its many forms by some of the regular (often ironically ex RA) posters on here in future.
> 
> ...


Bit quiet on the TUSC forever front.

What stuff at the start of the thread?


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## butchersapron (May 4, 2012)

> I suggest you re-read the stuff about the unstoppable rise of the BNP posted at the start of this thread - and curl up with embarrassment !


 
What stuff? Name names. Quote posts.


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## PlaidDragon (May 5, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Just to complete the madness, he appears to be a fucking Freeman.


Hilariously he tried to claim that his right to 'defend his property' was his under 'common law'. I don't suppose he was so bothered about that when he was mouthing off about being a Freeman of the Land when he got nicked in Liverpool a couple of months ago. The video of him getting nicked is on the BNP website, it's well worth a watch. The bloke is genuinely deranged. The sad thing is, he lives literally 5 minutes walk away from me and ran for community council this week. At 110 votes he's lost over 150, but it's still sad that 110 people in a small, close-knit village with strong benefits from immigration (very friendly nice shops run by a Sri Lankan family, Turkish kebab shop, Indian restaurant) would entertain this lunatic.


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## malatesta32 (May 5, 2012)

from hope not hate facebook:
'good news bnp Adam walker is in hospital wing of Holme House Prison, where he is serving an 18-week prison sentence chasing kids with a knive he is now a ruined man and he should be.'
cant find anyone else to substantiate it tho!


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## butchersapron (May 5, 2012)

That's from a year ago.


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## malatesta32 (May 5, 2012)

no wonder i cant find owt about it. hope not hate eh? cor!


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## Badgers (May 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:
			
		

> from hope not hate facebook:
> 'good news bnp Adam walker is in hospital wing of Holme House Prison, where he is serving an 18-week prison sentence chasing kids with a knive he is now a ruined man and he should be.'
> cant find anyone else to substantiate it tho!



http://www.journallive.co.uk/north-...f-chasing-children-with-knife-61634-29227512/


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## malatesta32 (May 5, 2012)

ta badgers and butchers! thought i was losing me touch!


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## ViolentPanda (May 5, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> So I assume that we ALL now , at last recognise that the much vaunted, "unstoppable" rise of the BNP ....to mirror the success of the French NF - on the back of its shift from "march and build" street action into respectable local goverment oriented and parliamentary electoralism, now lies in complete ruins ?


 
It's always a danger to assume that the ruin is complete.



> As the many splinters from this failed strategy, including obviously the EDL, do increasingly engage in street provocations, marches, stunts, attacks on the Left and minority communitites, I hope there will be a lot less of the rubbishing of the role of anti fascist organisation in its many forms by some of the regular (often ironically ex RA) posters on here in future.


 
I haven't seen a rubbishing of "anti-fascist organisation in its many forms". I've seen some rubbishing of the Searchlight/UAF axis for fighting with tactics that don't suit the times or the occasions, and for generally eschewing physical force anti-fascism, but the Searchlight/UAF axis hardly encompass the entirety of anti-fascist organisation, do they?



> Your analysis was right for a period guys.. but now history and politics, and REALITY, as ever, has moved on. I suggest you re-read the stuff about the unstoppable rise of the BNP posted at the start of this thread - and curl up with embarrassment !


 
You imply that the analysis is static, it isn't. You imply that it was wrong, while simultaneously admitting that it was right. *IF* the BNP were in the "complete ruins" you speak of, I might agree, but they're not. They've suffered a severe reverse, but they've recovered from those before, and if not the BNP, then some new organisation will come along, loaded with the same old character under a slightly different flag (of convenience).



> This doesn't of course negate the need for the Left to engage with local communities at local level, - with SOCIALIST politics... but it certainly DOES also mean that in the immediate future the Left ALSO has to reconstruct its anti fascist structures and operational practices at local level too - or be driven off the streets and meeting places by renewed fascist direct action.. in fact it's already started - as reports on Urban clearly show.


 
And whom do you propose socialists fall in behind/support?


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## Nigel Irritable (May 5, 2012)

Is the Hope Not Hate site correct that the BNP has now gone from 57 councillors to three? (Presumably not counting Parish councillors).


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## butchersapron (May 5, 2012)

Yes, but they have lost those seats over the last 3 or 4 years, not all this week. 57 was the high point of the last 10 year, since the cycle of their success began in Burnley in 2002. A cycle now over. For them anyway, not for the far right full stop as the social issues that drove the BNP still exist and still inform public political debate.


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## audiotech (May 5, 2012)

Yes, they'll be back, the pool they fish in has become both broader and firmer on the issues the far-right feed off.


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## ayatollah (May 6, 2012)

You've created an entire catalogue of Straw Men positions supposedly based on my post ,Violent Panda. If you read back on this extensive thread it is perfectly clear that the supporters of the "Filling the Vacuum" analysis, and other co-thinkers,  are  stuck in a rigid position that is now simply  outdated , and also turned out to be WRONG, ie, that the , for a long period very successful, turn to "respectable" electoralism by the BNP would lead to its unstoppable rise as a political force - mirroring the rise of the Far Right in Europe - and that  this electoral strategy would negate any return to "violent street action" by the Far Right.  There is quite enough hard evidence on this, and other threads, of a rubbishing of any attempts by the Left/anti fascist movement to confront the re -emerging "street action" by the EDL fascists and others, without me needing to detail it here. Just re-read this thread.

The reality is simply that the BNP's  " respectable electoralism" strategy has hit the buffers - it can't deliver results to its supporters in the new social crisis following the 2008 Crash. It's previous success was based almost entirely in its role, IN AN ERA OF ECONOMIC PROSPERITY, as a protest voting platform for those opposed to the growing multicultural reality of modern Britain. The BNP has no answer to the "austerity" measures following the 2008 Crash.

We are in a new era of struggle , post 2008, with both opportunities for a growing Radical Left, and obviously, continuing opportunities for the Fascist Right. This fascist Right is going to be increasingly represented by diverse "street action" and provocations ("March and Build") as WELL as continuing electoral action - but by a splintered and much more internally competitive Far Right.  For the Left to fail to build up its defensive structures and anti fascist activity levels to tackle the rise in "street activity" would be as foolish as not continuing to build up grass roots activity against the cuts in local communities.

I'm surprised you find this controversial, Violent Panda. Simply sneering at the current weakness of the Left in its many forms, is pretty pointless I would suggest. The point surely is to support the broadest range of Left activities and initiatives so as to build up the left  ?     Unless, like the miniscule IWCA rump of RA nowadays , Socialism itself is now seen as  politically impossible and undesirable ?  No-one is suggesting that us old grandads have to get back into our big boots and go back  onto the streets - but a new generation of young anti-fascists are doing-- and we should encourage them to do so.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You've created an entire catalogue of Straw Men positions supposedly based on my post ,Violent Panda.


 
Really? A whole catalogue? Don't you mean a field, or a meadow?



> If you read back on this extensive thread it is perfectly clear that the supporters of the "Filling the Vacuum" analysis, and other co-thinkers, are stuck in a rigid position that is now simply outdated , and also turned out to be WRONG, ie, that the , for a long period very successful, turn to "respectable" electoralism by the BNP would lead to its unstoppable rise as a political force - mirroring the rise of the Far Right in Europe - and that this electoral strategy would negate any return to "violent street action" by the Far Right. There is quite enough hard evidence on this, and other threads, of a rubbishing of any attempts by the Left/anti fascist movement to confront the re -emerging "street action" by the EDL fascists and others, without me needing to detail it here. Just re-read this thread.


 
Mmm, because a three month-old thread reflects what posters have got to say better than any of the older ones that make positions a lot clearer, and contain more nuance, don't they? 



> The reality is simply that the BNP's " respectable electoralism" strategy has hit the buffers - it can't deliver results to its supporters in the new social crisis following the 2008 Crash. It's previous success was based almost entirely in its role, IN AN ERA OF ECONOMIC PROSPERITY, as a protest voting platform for those opposed to the growing multicultural reality of modern Britain. The BNP has no answer to the "austerity" measures following the 2008 Crash.


 
Stop shouting, there's a good chap.
A few points:
1) To claim that the BNP's role in modern British politics was "based almost entirely" on the BNP being a convenient protest vote flies in the face of the BNP being elected consistently in some wards, and misses the fact that if "hard right" policies were sought by the electorate, then a more credible and socially-acceptable protest vote in the shape of UKIP exists. We didn't see UKIP gaining many council wards, for some reason.
2) The BNP has few answers to the "austerity" measures. Then again, no "mainstream" political party does, for the very good reason that they acknowledge having to function inside of the current political and economic systems, and by doing so restrict themselves to solutions that those conditions find amenable.



> We are in a new era of struggle , post 2008, with both opportunities for a growing Radical Left, and obviously, continuing opportunities for the Fascist Right. This fascist Right is going to be increasingly represented by diverse "street action" and provocations ("March and Build") as WELL as continuing electoral action - but by a splintered and much more internally competitive Far Right. For the Left to fail to build up its defensive structures and anti fascist activity levels to tackle the rise in "street activity" would be as foolish as not continuing to build up grass roots activity against the cuts in local communities.


 
I've seen "new eras of struggle" come and go every couple of years for the last 40. Guess what? We're still fighting the same struggle, with the same enemies, as we were then. The only difference between then and now is that the sort of social solidarities we had back then are dormant now, put in a coma by Thatcherism and its' descendents.
We have a "left" which is faced with a quandary of massive proportions - how does it do what you ask when the traditional basis by which it/we did so, has been eroded from under us?
The answer, of course, is that people struggle on and do what they can. That might not suit the various prescriptions people and organisations make for "the left", but the real world seldom does.



> I'm surprised you find this controversial, Violent Panda. Simply sneering at the current weakness of the Left in its many forms, is pretty pointless I would suggest.


 
Who's sneering? Not me. I'm saying that the idea or expectation that "the left" will coalesce into a united front, or that there will be a hegemonic left organisation any time soon that disparate socialists can unite behind, is pudding-pulling. "The left" is weak because much of the ideology of those elements of the left that support electoral politics (most of them, nowadays) may have a coherent vision of what they'd like to do "in power", but they have neither the strategy, or the tactics, to get there. Forget about numbers for a minute, and think on how many on the left actual give a monkey's dick about grassroots activity beyond swelling the ranks or occasionally engaging with a local issue? The SP, perhaps, but that's about it round here. Labour certainly don't give a fuck, and we haven't seen a Swappie on the doorstep for 15 years. There's loads of potential out there, but nothing to bring it together in the way that the old community structures (even the lowly "Tenants Associations") did.



> The point surely is to support the broadest range of Left activities and initiatives so as to build up the left ?


 
Uncritically? That appears to be what you're saying.



> Unless, like the miniscule IWCA rump of RA nowadays , Socialism itself is now seen as politically impossible and undesirable ? No-one is suggesting that us old grandads have to get back into our big boots and go back onto the streets - but a new generation of young anti-fascists are doing-- and we should encourage them to do so.


 
It's neither impossible or undesirable. What it is, though, is a lot more difficult, on a multitude of levels, than your remarks portray. I made a point on another thread a few days ago about differences between the economic situation now and 30-odd years ago: Back then we had plenty of community and local organisations to help us get by, especially in terms of welfare and financial advice and assistance. This time round, those things are going to the wall, and people with them, and what have "the left", as a force, done? Nowt, because building from the grassroots, rather than riding the coat-tails of disaffection, is too much like hard work.  The good work the few do is undermined by that, and guess what? You then get good "lefties" burning out because they're struggling to take up the slack of the fair-weather comrades.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 6, 2012)

lol


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 6, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> lol


 
Most informative post you've ever made.


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 6, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> You've created an entire catalogue of Straw Men positions supposedly based on my post ,Violent Panda. If you read back on this extensive thread it is perfectly clear that the supporters of the "Filling the Vacuum" analysis, and other co-thinkers, are stuck in a rigid position that is now simply outdated , and also turned out to be WRONG, ie, that the , for a long period very successful, turn to "respectable" electoralism by the BNP would lead to its unstoppable rise as a political force - mirroring the rise of the Far Right in Europe - and that this electoral strategy would negate any return to "violent street action" by the Far Right. There is quite enough hard evidence on this, and other threads, of a rubbishing of any attempts by the Left/anti fascist movement to confront the re -emerging "street action" by the EDL fascists and others, without me needing to detail it here. Just re-read this thread.
> 
> The reality is simply that the BNP's " respectable electoralism" strategy has hit the buffers - it can't deliver results to its supporters in the new social crisis following the 2008 Crash. It's previous success was based almost entirely in its role, IN AN ERA OF ECONOMIC PROSPERITY, as a protest voting platform for those opposed to the growing multicultural reality of modern Britain. The BNP has no answer to the "austerity" measures following the 2008 Crash.
> 
> ...


 
It used to be the Black Hand who routinely delivered evidence of such slightly bi-polar wishful thinking, but he to be fair did fall off the back of bus a couple of years previously, or so the story goes. You, on the other hand, as far as I know, have no excuse for repeatedly posting (while typically ducking any awkard questions) the same politically illiterate twaddle.


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## ViolentPanda (May 7, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It used to be the Black Hand who routinely delivered evidence of such slightly bi-polar wishful thinking, but he to be fair did fall off the back of bus a couple of years previously, or so the story goes. You, on the other hand, as far as I know, have no excuse for repeatedly posting (while typically ducking any awkard questions) the same politically illiterate twaddle.


 
There are many stories about The Black Hand, and to be honest, do we care whether they're true, as long as they're entertaining?


----------



## Joe Reilly (May 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, but they have lost those seats over the last 3 or 4 years, not all this week. 57 was the high point of the last 10 year, since the cycle of their success began in Burnley in 2002. A cycle now over. For them anyway, not for the far right full stop as the social issues that drove the BNP still exist and still inform public political debate.


 
As Matthew Goodwin put it in the Guardian - 'The question that remains is what will emerge to fill the vacuum?'


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, but they have lost those seats over the last 3 or 4 years, not all this week. 57 was the high point of the last 10 year, since the cycle of their success began in Burnley in 2002. A cycle now over. For them anyway, not for the far right full stop as the social issues that drove the BNP still exist and still inform public political debate.


 
Yes. The failure of the BNP to take advantage of favourable conditions does not imply that conditions all of a sudden aren't favourable for the far right to grow.

It is interesting though just how badly they seem to have botched their opportunities over the last three years. And the implosion of the BNP, with the subsequent rounds of demoralisation, fragmentation, bitterness and bickering may well have serious consequences in terms of limiting the ability of any other far right faction to take advantage of those same opportunities. Unfortunately for the far right you have to work with the human material you've got, and they really do attract a large proportion of incompetents, fantasists and oddballs, and there's likely to be less of a leavening of relatively serious and ambitious recruits in the near future.

Just because opportunities are there doesn't mean that there's anyone capable of taking them. Here in Ireland, for instance, at least in the South, we've been blessed by the low quality of our far rightists. There have been opportunities for them, but they are incapable of even getting a small, stable, group going, let alone holding public events or building public support.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 7, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Yes. The failure of the BNP to take advantage of favourable conditions does not imply that conditions all of a sudden aren't favourable for the far right to grow.
> 
> It is interesting though just how badly they seem to have botched their opportunities over the last three years. And the implosion of the BNP, with the subsequent rounds of demoralisation, fragmentation, bitterness and bickering may well have serious consequences in terms of limiting the ability of any other far right faction to take advantage of those same opportunities. Unfortunately for the far right you have to work with the human material you've got, and they really do attract a large proportion of incompetents, fantasists and oddballs, and there's likely to be less of a leavening of relatively serious and ambitious recruits in the near future.
> 
> Just because opportunities are there doesn't mean that there's anyone capable of taking them. Here in Ireland, for instance, at least in the South, we've been blessed by the low quality of our far rightists. There have been opportunities for them, but they are incapable of even getting a small, stable, group going, let alone holding public events or building public support.


so the failure of Fascists in the UK was down to the quality of Fascists in the UK?


----------



## The39thStep (May 7, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> so the failure of Fascists in the UK was down to the quality of Fascists in the UK?


 
Pretty much so


----------



## love detective (May 7, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> It is interesting though just how badly they seem to have botched their opportunities over the last three years. And the implosion of the BNP, with the subsequent rounds of demoralisation, fragmentation, bitterness and bickering may well have serious consequences in terms of limiting the ability of any other far right faction to take advantage of those same opportunities. Unfortunately for the far right you have to work with the human material you've got, and they really do attract a large proportion of incompetents, fantasists and oddballs, and there's likely to be less of a leavening of relatively serious and ambitious recruits in the near future.


 
It seems like something more wider, something about the quality of those outside the political mainstream in general in the UK.

As what you say above applies equally to the left as it does the right. Meaning the few individuals scattered around the various organisations that do have the right mixture of qualities have to bear a disproportionate burden of organisational activity across all spheres of that activity. Which not only restricts the ability of organisational activity to expand beyond a certain point (and places huge stresses on those individuals), but also exposes the whole venture to 'key man/woman' risk as everything is so dependent on a handful of key people

I think the points been made on here before, in relation to one of the reasons why the BNP has stumbled and that's because it didn't have a sufficiently embedded strata of capable 'middle management' in place at the time when it really needed them (one potential reason for this was that militant anti-fascism up to the mid 1990's ensured that the type needed were never likely to get involved with the far right at the time in any great numbers)


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

love detective said:


> It seems like something more wider, something about the quality of those outside the political mainstream in general in the UK.


 
All political organisations attract some odd people and some lonely people, fringe and mainstream parties alike. But in general, I don't think that the far left is lacking quite a lot of reasonably serious and competent people. Its problems are of a rather different sort. The far right, by contrast, does seem to be missing a capable cadre.

I don't think that the BNP would have had to be all that much more competent in order to have done considerably better from their position a few years back. The opportunities were there, and they had a workable political strategy to capitalise on them.


----------



## audiotech (May 8, 2012)

Quality!


----------



## love detective (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> All political organisations attract some odd people and some lonely people, fringe and mainstream parties alike.But in general, I don't think that the far left is lacking quite a lot of reasonably serious and competent people. Its problems are of a rather different sort. The far right, by contrast, does seem to be missing a capable cadre.


 
the problems of the left do not emanate from within the left itself then, in your opinion?


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> All political organisations attract some odd people and some lonely people, fringe and mainstream parties alike. But in general, I don't think that the far left is lacking quite a lot of reasonably serious and competent people. Its problems are of a rather different sort. The far right, by contrast, does seem to be missing a capable cadre.
> 
> I don't think that the BNP would have had to be all that much more competent in order to have done considerably better from their position a few years back. The opportunities were there, and they had a workable political strategy to capitalise on them.


 
The BNP did embark on building the middle management cadre that you describe. A series of conferences , training and development took place at the same time they were purging and banning some of the 'nutzis'.  Most of these were fairly new recruits , some had been political travellers but many hadn't been politicised before. I guess that a lot of them just didn't have the political backbone or experience for the widespread faction fighting that broke out and the haemorrhaging of some of the better BNP cadre to other organisations.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 8, 2012)

with a bit of deductive reasoning we can look at who is likely to fill the vaccuum:
NF - despite being a brand they are very keen on keeping it a white only do so will face problems that the bnp faced. its tenner to join and is only strong in a few places. they dont have any money but got a boost from the infidels link up. 
british peoples party - which is redwatch watmough and his horriendous wife have just kicked out david 'grizzly' jones who was their most prominentr candidate in todmorden. 
English democrats which is eddie ‘rights for whites’ are pushing a more moderate line, culutral nationalism rather than racial nationalism (or summat). 
British fluffy freedom have just linked up with the EDL which may get them votes and attention cos of mr. Tommy but he has such a BAD public image. 
England first is diamond jim dowsons latest front and far too wee. 
Which leaves ukip who are less tarnished with the overt racism of either the bnp or nf and have cannily excluded bnp-ers to avoid negative publicity. However they stil come across as maverick tories and in working class areas that is not too appealing. 
So 1 vaccuum requires far right party of FN, golden dawn to fill it ASAP. Any other takers? i saw something called national liberals yesterday but there are always far right grupuscules popping up and dying out. we shall see ...


----------



## malatesta32 (May 8, 2012)

oh england first party have got mark 'cash grab' cotterill on board who just polled a handful of ticks in preston. he has baggage re: his jaunt to america and fleecing that fascist magazine. rather amusing.


----------



## chilango (May 8, 2012)

AFAIK the "National Liberals" are some sort of post-Third Way hobby group of Harrington or someone.


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## malatesta32 (May 8, 2012)

_ah, national liberal party is patrick harirngton. should be as succesful as his made up union solidarity. _


----------



## bignose1 (May 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> oh england first party have got mark 'cash grab' cotterill on board who just polled a handful of ticks in preston. he has baggage re: his jaunt to america and fleecing that fascist magazine. rather amusing.


 And he's state


----------



## bignose1 (May 8, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> And he's state


 Before any one says 'pot, black, kettle'


----------



## malatesta32 (May 8, 2012)

well cotterill has very little credibility on the far right anyway. brons may have joined the fluffies according to shirtfront. how ye doing big man?


----------



## bignose1 (May 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> well cotterill has very little credibility on the far right anyway. brons may have joined the fluffies according to shirtfront. how ye doing big man?


Alrightish fellah...Ill send yer a PM later on. Looking forward to yer finishing your book.!!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 8, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It used to be the Black Hand who routinely delivered evidence of such slightly bi-polar wishful thinking, but he to be fair did fall off the back of bus a couple of years previously, or so the story goes. You, on the other hand, as far as I know, have no excuse for repeatedly posting (while typically ducking any awkard questions) the same politically illiterate twaddle.


Lazy Joe Lazy. The facts are that the movement is fekked; you, the labour party, anarchists, trade unions, everybody. You're all scrambling, some offereing slightly better initiatives, and politics than others. Nobody has the right to claim leadership, nobodies analysis and practice means much. Rather it is those seeking unity and practice of and within the new class compositions that have the best politics IMHO.

As for the bus, i find your post bizarre. If you want a serious exchange of politics rather than tittle tattle twaddle on U75 I would love to see it.


----------



## The Black Hand (May 8, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> There are many stories about The Black Hand, and to be honest, do we care whether they're true, as long as they're entertaining?


 Fekking ridiculous. We can all spread meaningless irrelevant shite and make stuff up as the ultra left do on U75, it fekking pathetic tho.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 8, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> Fekking ridiculous.


 
Are you claiming there aren't loads of stories about you doing the rounds? 



> We can all spread meaningless irrelevant shite and make stuff up as the ultra left do on U75, it fekking pathetic tho.


 
Yep, it's "pathetic" having a sense of humour and ribbing a self-important blow-hard, I agree.


----------



## The39thStep (May 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> with a bit of deductive reasoning we can look at who is likely to fill the vaccuum:
> NF - despite being a brand they are very keen on keeping it a white only do so will face problems that the bnp faced. its tenner to join and is only strong in a few places. they dont have any money but got a boost from the infidels link up.
> british peoples party - which is redwatch watmough and his horriendous wife have just kicked out david 'grizzly' jones who was their most prominentr candidate in todmorden.
> English democrats which is eddie ‘rights for whites’ are pushing a more moderate line, culutral nationalism rather than racial nationalism (or summat).
> ...


 
The problem for them all is that Labour are mopping up any opposition to the Coalition bar UKIP .Although the BNP vote held up a tad better than the Lib Dems in some places .Conceivably to respond to the UKIP threat Cameron will be under pressure to shift a bit but his room for manoeuvre is limited precisely due to the coalition.

In the same way as the left periodically look at joining forces  it could be that there is some form of a non aggression pact between the far right especially for the Euros, next year is a fallow election year for Councils in many places. Expect far right candidates in the Police and Crime Commissioner elections in November and more activity over the CSE trial at Liverpool and the upcoming ones .


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 8, 2012)

I think the police commisioner elections will be the next big push for various rightwing groups - however it will be independents who do best outside the big 2 parties (almost said big 3 but lol)


----------



## Red Storm (May 8, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> As Matthew Goodwin put it in the Guardian - 'The question that remains is what will emerge to fill the vacuum?'


 
FtV document has even been posted on Sabcat: http://sabcat.com/filling-the-vacuum/


----------



## malatesta32 (May 8, 2012)

steps mainly agree feller but the idea of unity on the far right - what with all the fallouts and emerging diffs between cultural and racial nationalism and ukips reluctance to take on ex-bnp i cannae see it. ukip will benefit in the short term but you never know with those unpredictable nazis!!!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

love detective said:


> the problems of the left do not emanate from within the left itself then, in your opinion?


 
That's not what I said at all. The problems of the left have both external and internal causes, but an activist base dominated by incompetents, oddballs, fantasists, drunks, mentalists, criminals and idiots isn't really one of those internal causes in the same way it is for the far right. Those people exist on the far left, and in the mainstream parties, but they don't set the tone in the same way.




			
				The39thStep said:
			
		

> The BNP did embark on building the middle management cadre that you describe. A series of conferences, training and development took place at the same they were purging and banning some of the 'nutzis'.


 
Now that is interesting, if only because it indicates that their top brass were also of the view that they had serious problems in terms of human material and were intent on doing something about it.


----------



## love detective (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's not what I said at all. The problems of the left have both external and internal causes


 
If the left, as currently constituted, is as irrelevant as it clearly appears to be today, during the deepest period of recession /depression /downturn /austerity /declining real wages in over 100 years - then to me that suggests the problems of the left are due more to internal, than external, causes.

We can however just blame it on external causes (the times not right etc..) and continue to do exactly the same thing with exactly the same type of people using the exact same thinking for the next 25 years, in a manner that Einstein suggested was definitional of a particular state of mind



Nigel Irritable said:


> incompetents, oddballs, fantasists, drunks, mentalists, criminals and idiots


 
this really does sum up a significant proportion of the left/anarchism to me


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

love detective said:


> If the left, as currently constituted, is as irrelevant as it clearly appears to be today, during the deepest period of recession /depression /downturn /austerity /declining real wages in over 100 years - then to me that suggests the problems of the left are due more to internal, than external, causes.


 
This leaves out what went before the present crisis: Twenty five years of the retreat of the workers movement, politically, organisationally, industrially, ideologically. And that's something which had rather bigger causes than the personal failings of the relatively small number of far left activists.

I do actually agree that there are internal causes too, but you simply aren't seeing the scale of the problem here.




			
				love detective said:
			
		

> this really does sum of a significant proportion of the left/anarchism to me


 
I wasn't really including anarchism in this discussion. You may well be right that the broad anarchist scene is like that. But the Trotskyist end of things isn't really. And I suspect that the more organised end of anarchism, as opposed to the anarchoid milieu, probably isn't either. Come to think of it, the Spartoid end of Trotskyism, might fit the bill too, but they are numerically insignificant even by the small standards of the far left.

I think I've been in six or seven branches of far left organisations in Ireland and Britain, and with one exception they've been dominated by pretty capable people. That exception was in the SSP in Glasgow - and that particular SSP branch was famous in the Glasgow SSP for containing a bizarre number of lunatics and for being unrepresentative in that regard. Some of those other branches had a punter or two who fit the description, but they never, ever, set the tone.


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I think I've been in six or seven branches of far left organisations in Ireland and Britain, and with one exception they've been dominated by pretty capable people. That exception was in the SSP in Glasgow - and that particular SSP branch was famous in the Glasgow SSP for containing a bizarre number of lunatics and for being unrepresentative in that regard. Some of those other branches had a punter or two who fit the description, but they never, ever, set the tone.


 
Really? You're obsession with the SSP is rather pathetic.....


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Back to the OP...

Some interesting remarks seem to have been uttered by Griffin. Talk of "London is now an occupied zone" BNP must "lead the resistance", "inner city immigrant fast breeders" and "flying columns" all being thrown into his remarks.....


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Really? You're obsession with the SSP is rather pathetic.....


 
What?

I think you've misread my post there. My SSP branch had a lot of nutcases in it. Really it did. But my point was that _this was not at all reflective of the SSP_ as a whole. SSP branches were generally run by competent, sane, people.

You might remember some of the people I was talking about if you think back a bit.


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> What?
> 
> I think you've misread my post there. My SSP branch had a lot of nutcases in it. Really it did. But my point was that this was not at all reflective of the SSP as a whole.


 
One less when you left, so every bit helps.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> What?
> 
> I think you've misread my post there. My SSP branch had a lot of nutcases in it. Really it did. But my point was that _this was not at all reflective of the SSP_ as a whole. SSP branches were generally run by competent, sane, people.
> 
> You might remember some of the people I'm talking about.


 
Mr Wallis?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> One less when you left, so every bit helps.


 
Christ.

You do know the branch I'm talking about and who was in it don't you?


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Mr Wallis?


 
Dunno where he was a member SSP wise as he was an inpatient in Manchester then ended up as an in-patient in a hospital a mile or so from me. He was, might I add, a member of a CWI/SP branch in Manchester where one of the active members kept a bell jar under his bed that he regularly put his deposits in.... So if we're pointing fingers...


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Christ.
> 
> You do know the branch I'm talking about and who was in it don't you?


 
Aye, you were described to me as one of the more bizarre members, but hey..... Btw there's a psychiatrist who was in that branch, i'll be sure to ask his opinion when I see him next.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (May 8, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Aye, you were described to me as one of the more bizarre members, but hey..... Btw there's a psychiatrist who was in that branch, i'll be sure to ask his opinion when I see him next.


 
There were two pretty reasonable Swaps and about three pretty normal ISMish people and after that it was a total fucking zoo.

There were people from Workers Unity, Glasgow Marxist Forum or whatever it was called, someone who'd been in the RCP and still had most of their politics, and people from other one and two man groups. And lots of them were clearly... peculiar.

As for bizarre, did your friend think that I was more or less so than a 50 year old man who still dresses up as part of a subculture from his youth?


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

I know the branch well, there was people I wouldn't socialise with, like plenty of other branches of the SSP and when I was in the CWI.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (May 8, 2012)

Was that old American bloke with the beard in that branch the one from the IWW? A total loon that one.


----------



## Fedayn (May 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Was that old American bloke with the beard in that branch the one from the IWW? A total loon that one.


 
He's in, what was, a different branch, I hardly know him. but he's not my cup of tea.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> Nigel Irritable said:
> 
> 
> > Yes. The failure of the BNP to take advantage of favourable conditions does not imply that conditions all of a sudden aren't favourable for the far right to grow.
> ...


and the evidence for this assumption is,,,,,,,,,,,?


----------



## The39thStep (May 9, 2012)

ResistanceMP3 said:


> and the evidence for this assumption is,,,,,,,,,,,?


 
http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-now-for-the-bnp.287021/page-14#post-11150176

I can add that both the far right and the far left got marginalised by Labour sweeping up the anti Coalition vote. in a few places like Salford the BNP vote not only held up but increased.


----------



## malatesta32 (May 10, 2012)

front have published their election results. 95% very poor indeed, GLA overall result 8,000 votes. so they wont be stepping into the vaccuum just yet then?


----------



## malatesta32 (May 10, 2012)

also as pointed out on shirtfront peter tierney/quiggins is very confrontational in his day to day antics. joey owens has been calling him an agent provocateur but he says that about everyone. but he may be right on this 1? are you out there googling yourself joey? or john the baptist  as he is on shirtfront.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 10, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/what-now-for-the-bnp.287021/page-14#post-11150176
> 
> I can add that both the far right and the far left got marginalised by Labour sweeping up the anti Coalition vote. in a few places like Salford the BNP vote not only held up but increased.


fair enough, but not a view I share.

I think if you look across Europe, there are fascists doing quite well,and those not so well. I doubt this is because the English are more stupid or less skilled than the French [for example].  I believe if you could transport the more skilled fascists in Europe to the UK to operate, their success would only be marginally better.  

The history/tactics of anti-fascism in this country has created an albatross for any party with a fascist lineage.  Whether these tactics will continue to work, we will see.  However, it seems, on this occasion they have once again achieved their aim.

[I suppose an interesting case study would be, pointing to a country in Europe that has used the same antifascist tactics as in the UK, but where the fascists have become a much bigger political force.)


----------



## The Black Hand (May 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you claiming there aren't loads of stories about you doing the rounds?
> Yep, it's "pathetic" having a sense of humour and ribbing a self-important blow-hard, I agree.


Same old same old is not funny tho.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> Same old same old is not funny tho.


 
Your words, not mine!


----------



## The Black Hand (May 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Your words, not mine!


 No they were very much your same old same old and those of the other ultra left around here.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2012)

The Black Hand said:


> No they were very much your same old same old and those of the other ultra left around here.


 
"Ultra left". 
Got any more buzzwords you want to trot out? Care to throw a "praxis" in there?


----------



## The Black Hand (May 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Ultra left".
> Got any more buzzwords you want to trot out? Care to throw a "praxis" in there?


 Buzzwords? More like standard political vocabulary, unless, like you, you are making a limp effort at a political point.


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Are you claiming there aren't loads of stories about you doing the rounds?
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, it's "pathetic" having a sense of humour and ribbing a self-important blow-hard, I agree.


it's amazing what the surgeons can do these days.


----------



## past caring (May 10, 2012)

So when are _you_ going under the knife?


----------



## TremulousTetra (May 10, 2012)

past caring said:


> So when are _you_ going under the knife?


Ow! Very cutting.


----------



## Red Storm (May 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "Ultra left".
> Got any more buzzwords you want to trot out? Care to throw a "praxis" in there?


 
He aint shit unless he says paradigm.


----------



## ViolentPanda (May 10, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> He aint shit unless he says paradigm.


 
He ain't shit unless he *misuses* the word "paradigm".


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 2, 2012)

This has just been put on the HnH blog - i'm just reporting it, not endorsing it:



> An Irish newspaper will tomorrow publish allegations against BNP leader Nick Griffin that for legal reasons we cannot repeat in full.
> 
> The Sunday World, which has editions both in the North and the Republic of Ireland, has taken advantage of a British law which excludes Northern Ireland from UK law banning the reporting of allegations made by a witness in a court case.
> 
> Although the basis of the allegations levelled against Griffin have been well known to us at Hope Not Hate for a number of years and we have been forced to remain frustratingly silent, the graphic and full extent of the wide ranging allegations made in the article in Ireland may well shock even the most ardent of Griffin remaining admirers.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 2, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> This has just been put on the HnH blog - i'm just reporting it, not endorsing it:


I hate that fucking rag, but I will get a copy in the morning.


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jun 3, 2012)

Has the story been published yet? Sounds intriguing.


----------



## Deareg (Jun 3, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Has the story been published yet? Sounds intriguing.


Yeah,It made some interesting allegations which if proved to be true should have serious consequences for Griffin and the BNP.


----------



## josef1878 (Jun 3, 2012)

Something called south west nationalists blogspot has a scan of the article. You will not be surprised.


----------



## JimW (Jun 3, 2012)

Villa in Italy? Seems a bit early for the Europa league fixtures to be out.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jun 4, 2012)

Here's a handy phrase that our favourite Cantabrigian cyclops might find useful whilst recruiting strapping young lads from 'neath the olive groves:



> Prego, potete rimuovere la mia amianto? Grazie!


----------



## scoobydoo (Jun 4, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Yes, they'll be back, the pool they fish in has become both broader and firmer on the issues the far-right feed off.


They will be crossing over to Britain first party etc.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 4, 2012)

Having now read the story, i'm a bit eh? How the hell can the minute details of the BNPs finances be brought up in a trial of bloke charged with blackmailing Griffin? He can say,_ sure i was after him because of this specific bit of money owed to me for printing_, but how on earth can they bring in the entirety of BNP's accounts from throughout the 90s into it? The judge isn't going to allow that is s/he? I think they've got a bit carried away with the stuff they've heard from Sloan's legal representation.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 4, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Having now read the story, i'm a bit eh? How the hell can the minute details of the BNPs finances be brought up in a trial of bloke charged with blackmailing Griffin? He can say,_ sure i was after him because of this specific bit of money owed to me for printing_, but how on earth can they bring in the entirety of BNP's accounts from throughout the 90s into it? The judge isn't going to allow that is s/he? I think they've got a bit carried away with the stuff they've heard from Sloan's legal representation.


 
This sounds very much like the usual Searchlight m.o. - frontload with allegations and promises of real treat, sell it to the papers/programmers on that basis, and then when the facts are sifted from the allegations, usually all that is left is 'what if's'. That last BNP 'expose' by the BBC was about the worst documentary ever commissioned.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 5, 2012)

joe, you obviously didnt see the doco on tommy robinson.


----------



## claphamboy (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Having now read the story, i'm a bit eh? How the hell can the minute details of the BNPs finances be brought up in a trial of bloke charged with blackmailing Griffin? He can say,_ sure i was after him because of this specific bit of money owed to me for printing_, but how on earth can they bring in the entirety of BNP's accounts from throughout the 90s into it? The judge isn't going to allow that is s/he? I think they've got a bit carried away with the stuff they've heard from Sloan's legal representation.


 
I think you could be right, although without knowing the details of the case and the defence it's difficult to tell, maybe, just maybe, the defence team have a trick up their sleeve that could allow such evidence to be brought forward - we can at least live in hope.

Court case starts 18th June, so not too long to wait.


----------



## scoobydoo (Jun 7, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> This sounds very much like the usual Searchlight m.o. - frontload with allegations and promises of real treat, sell it to the papers/programmers on that basis, and then when the facts are sifted from the allegations, usually all that is left is 'what if's'. That last BNP 'expose' by the BBC was about the worst documentary ever commissioned.


 
What can you expect from searchlight a zionist organisation. They do more harm than good. UAF is doing a better job.


----------



## past caring (Jun 7, 2012)

I'm not sure that zionism quite explains the shitness of Searchlight's politics and method - perhaps you could elaborate?

Be interested to know on what basis you're bigging up UAF, too, while you're about it.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 7, 2012)

a semi-fair appraisal would be that searchlight grew out of genuine antifascist activity and included veterans from the CP and the 62 group etc and only later developed more links with SB etc. AFA split with searchlight (see beating the fascists) following the class war smears and the realisation that info on militant AFs as well as fascists was also being given to plod. the early searchlights are pretty much the only documentation of day to day anti/fascist activity and they stayed on it whilst others - SWP, militant, etc - thought that antifascism was unneccesary. just been through a bunch from the 1980s and they are pretty much the only source of info.


----------



## scoobydoo (Jun 23, 2012)

Whos at the front of most anti fascist demo's in this country? Its mostly UAF. One of the biggest prejudices now is Islamophobia .What is searchlight doing for muslims?


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

scoobydoo said:


> What can you expect from searchlight a zionist organisation. They do more harm than good. UAF is doing a better job.


 
Searchlight aren't "Zionist", unless you're one of those thick shitsacks who buys what the BNP retails. Cable is a Jew whose son chose to live in Israel and serve the usual "national service" period in the IDF. Big fucking deal. Cable was a member of the CP, and some thick cunts equate Jew with "communist", but I'm willing to bet you can't provide me with any credible proof that Searchlight is a "Zionist organisation", because there isn't any.

And, as many posters on this board know, I'm a Jew, an anti-Zionist and someone who'd cross the street to kick Lowles and Cable in the bollocks.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

scoobydoo said:


> Whos at the front of most anti fascist demo's in this country? Its mostly UAF. One of the biggest prejudices now is Islamophobia .What is searchlight doing for muslims?


 
Fuck off with your "at the front at demos". In the rearguard hiding from the coppers and the aggro and shouting student slogans. Fucking Swappites going where Swappites always go, doing what Swappites always do.


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## audiotech (Jun 23, 2012)

With SWP meetings attacked recently your comments are not helpful VP. I would save energy and keep any rearranging of gonads to those that warrant it. Not other anti-fascists, who you clearly disagree with, but the senselessness of your approach is plainly daft. Try debate next time a meeting comes up.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 23, 2012)

audiotech said:


> With SWP meetings attacked recently your comments are not helpful VP.


 
They're not meant to be. UAF aren't an aid to anti-fascism, they're a diversion from it. Children shouting slogans about "Nazis", and not addressing why there might be a turn to racism and nationalism.



> I would save energy...


 
Fine. You do what you feel you must, I'll do the same.



> ...and keep any rearranging of gonads to those that warrant it. Not other anti-fascists, who you clearly disagree with...


 
Right, don't kick people in the bollocks because they're anti-fascists, even if they're happy to turn on "their own" whenever it suits them. Just turn the other cheek. Your advice is noted.



> ....but the senselessness of your approach is plainly daft. Try debate next time a meeting comes up.


 
I've tried debate often over the last 35 years, and it always gets you to the same place with the Swappites - nowhere. Same old posturing, same old tactics, same old whining about "solidarity" when they want physical force anti-fascists to protect them from getting their heads kicked in, same old knives in the backs of physical force anti-fascists *after* they've shown solidarity to the Swappites.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 24, 2012)

wasnt there an incident in manchester when UAF handed over a militant antifascist to plod at an anti EDL demo? UAF work with plod and willingly get penned in at times. although it is possible to argue against their tactics im glad theyre there. the fash just see everyone as against them and it demoralises them. EDL tried attacking an SWP meeting the other day but were soundly rebuffed. the SWP wising up at last. searchlight = zionist = BNP nonsense. searchlight and plod is a far bigger concern.


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## SpineyNorman (Jun 24, 2012)

Unfortunately from what I've seen, away from demos and on the estates, the UAF actively hinder antifascism and help the BNP to look like the radical alternative and the only ones who give a shit about local concerns. The vote labour to stop the BNP/asylum seekers welcome here (when the people carrying the banner aren't from "here" and so have no right to say who is and isn't welcome)/anyone who mentions immigration is a racist stuff is incredibly counterproductive. I'm convinced that antifascism would be strengthened if the UAF either stuck to anti-EDL demos or just fucked off.


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## Red Storm (Jun 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> wasnt there an incident in manchester when UAF handed over a militant antifascist to plod at an anti EDL demo? UAF work with plod and willingly get penned in at times. although it is possible to argue against their tactics im glad theyre there.


 
Yeah they did


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## malatesta32 (Jun 24, 2012)

shameful case that. its up to antifascists to steer clear of them if thats the case. to be fair, its the only 1 ive heard of.


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## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

I ran with some good, militant anti-fascists and then SWP members, who would strike fear in both fascists and any grass. Sadly the main players at that time are now dead, one still alive and not kicking, after a heart attack. It's in their honour that I post what I do. All this internet 'bollock kicking' is again just senseless posturing.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> wasnt there an incident in manchester when UAF handed over a militant antifascist to plod at an anti EDL demo? UAF work with plod...


 
Smith and Bennett (not a fan of either), both arrested at Bolton was it? How is that 'working with plod' pray tell?


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## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Yeah they did


 
Any details on that?


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Any details on that?



"it's them over there you want to look at"

Can't remember his name now.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> They're not meant to be. UAF aren't an aid to anti-fascism, they're a diversion from it. Children shouting slogans about "Nazis", and not addressing why there might be a turn to racism and nationalism.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
There all chidren? pfft

Turn the other cheek? I didn't say that, but your advice is bound to work.

Was the sum total of your intervention 'kick them in the bollocks' by any chance?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> "it's them over there you want to look at"
> 
> Can't remember his name now.


 
So very little detail it turns out.


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> There all chidren? pfft


"They're", and don't put words in my mouth, there's a good chap.



> Turn the other cheek? I didn't say that, but your advice is bound to work.
> 
> Was the sum total of your intervention 'kick them in the bollocks' by any chance?


 
No.

Got any more stupid, pointless questions you want to ask in order to try to paint yourself as less of an arse?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> "They're", and don't put words in my mouth, there's a good chap.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
You are the one looking like an arse with your 'bollock kicking' routine.


----------



## Red Storm (Jun 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> So very little detail it turns out.



Not much else to tell. He's a leading Swappy and pointed us out within earshot to the police


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Yeah they did


 
You mean when several UAF stewards at an anti-EDL protest in Leeds in 2009 actually blocked an Anarchist Federation member from returning to the lines of protesters, and then summoned the loitering OB over to arrest him?
Notice how unsurprised at the time a lot of activists were that Swappites would do such a thing? Wonder why that was? Perhaps because a lot of non-Swappite activists are clued-in on what Swappites will do.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> You are the one looking like an arse with your 'bollock kicking' routine.


 
Yes dear.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> You mean when several UAF stewards at an anti-EDL protest in Leeds in 2009 actually blocked an Anarchist Federation member from returning to the lines of protesters, and then summoned the loitering OB over to arrest him?
> Notice how unsurprised at the time a lot of activists were that Swappites would do such a thing? Wonder why that was? Perhaps because a lot of non-Swappite activists are clued-in on what Swappites will do.


 
I was there that day and I dispute your account. Anything to back that up?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Not much else to tell. He's a leading Swappy and pointed us out within earshot to the police


 
Fair enough Red Storm.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Jun 24, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Not much else to tell. He's a leading Swappy and pointed us out within earshot to the police


 
I think I might know the name of that individual, but tbh I don't want to put it on a public forum. There's enough shit-throwing going on between antifascists as it is.

On that note, UAF are still dire though.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

scoobydoo said:


> Whos at the front of most anti fascist demo's in this country? Its mostly UAF. One of the biggest prejudices now is Islamophobia .What is searchlight doing for muslims?


 
Last time I looked espousing the idea that ignoring extreme, Islamic fundamentalists was tantamount to shooting oneself in the foot. It's more than likely the UAF was in mind when this was put. I'm pretty certain that Muslims don't need any condescending trite from a member/supporter of a recruiting front for the SWP.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 24, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I was there that day and I dispute your account. Anything to back that up?


 
Besides the testimony of several AFEDers? No. But then you've nothing to back up your narrative except anecdote either, have you?


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Besides the testimony of several AFEDers? No. But then you've nothing to back up your narrative except anecdote either, have you?


 
I avoided the pen. I recall someone pointing out who they thought was an EDL supporter? That wasn't confirmed on the day, but I myself noticed one, or two EDL supporters (said so on the t-shirt) walking towards the counter demo. I also remember the massed ranks of 'revolution', who looked intent on a suicide mission. They even bought along a bog standard red flare to draw attention to themselves.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 24, 2012)

Anyone who got wound up by Scoobydoo is a fucking idiot -it's obvious he is a fash pretending to be a UAF supporter to stir shit up.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 24, 2012)

Other posts by said poster suggests he's not that bright either.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Fuck off with your "at the front at demos". In the rearguard hiding from the coppers and the aggro and shouting student slogans. Fucking Swappites going where Swappites always go, doing what Swappites always do.


 
Certainly not true of the SWP in the 70s around ANL Mark 1. And whilst I have very little time for the SWPs present politics who do you think is at the front at anti EDL/BNP  demos these days ?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Smith and Bennett (not a fan of either), both arrested at Bolton was it? How is that 'working with plod' pray tell?


hey techy! bolton was a very noticable reversal in plod tactics and im not sure why they went so heavy manners on antifascists - altho i think it backfired onp lod if i recall. as for working with plod, on the demos we have been on UAF have often been willingly kettled, told to go where plod says and often ended up penned in elsewhere after a diverted march somewhere which has diluted the numbers on the streets who use blocking tactics etc. there are some exceptions where the majority of antifascists avoided plod and operated in a fairly autonomous manner tho too many to list just now!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

you cannot take away the fact that the SWP organised the squads who were a crucial development in militant antifascism and reversed fascist street presence. the subsequent activity by the SWP CC is more than adequately covered in BTF book. disgraceful. the SWP then and during miners strike contained some serious growlers several who ended up in red action. as someone pointed out SWP were the chuck a brick party [?] and their militancy was a great part of their attraction. however, the SWSS and UAF are hardly militant and personally, i am embarassed by the 'nartzi scum - off our streets!' chant.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Last time I looked espousing the idea that ignoring extreme, Islamic fundamentalists was tantamount to shooting oneself in the foot. It's more than likely the UAF was in mind when this was put. I'm pretty certain that Muslims don't need any condescending trite from a member/supporter of a recruiting front for the SWP.


 
the commonly held beilief by the EDL is that antifascists are there to 'protect' muslims rather than being there to respond to fascist provocation. i get the feeling that even they dont believe their own criticism of UAF etc as 'pedo supporters' at court demos (a PR blunder by the way). antifascism is activity against fascism not patronising and misguided social work. i dunno about you, but non local fascists marching thru my town is provocation.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Certainly not true of the SWP in the 70s around ANL Mark 1. And whilst I have very little time for the SWPs present politics who do you think is at the front at anti EDL/BNP demos these days ?


steps, the UAF are at the front of many demos as a counter presence but in my experience there are always plenty of antifascists outside the kettle and police lines. enough now, massive caffeine rush over.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 25, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Certainly not true of the SWP in the 70s around ANL Mark 1. And whilst I have very little time for the SWPs present politics who do you think is at the front at anti EDL/BNP demos these days ?


 
Whoever UAF find to crouch behind.


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> steps, the UAF are at the front of many demos as a counter presence but in my experience there are always plenty of antifascists outside the kettle and police lines. enough now, massive caffeine rush over.


 
I would accept that . No matter how much I might disagree with UAFs tactics my experience is that their supporters do turn up and are often  at the front. For what purpose and to what avail is a debating point but I don't go along with VPs  position .


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## The39thStep (Jun 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> you cannot take away the fact that the SWP organised the squads who were a crucial development in militant antifascism and reversed fascist street presence. the subsequent activity by the SWP CC is more than adequately covered in BTF book. disgraceful. the SWP then and during miners strike contained some serious growlers several who ended up in red action. as someone pointed out SWP were the chuck a brick party [?] and their militancy was a great part of their attraction. however, the SWSS and UAF are hardly militant and personally, i am embarassed by the 'nartzi scum - off our streets!' chant.


 
That someone was me when  we met up.


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## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> That someone was me when we met up.


 
oops! http://www.koolbadges.co.uk/images/thumbnails/eejit-200x200.jpg


----------



## audiotech (Jun 25, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> i dunno about you, but non local fascists marching thru my town is provocation.


 
Absolutely, but organisations opposing need to look seriously at the required response to the provocation and what that provocation entails. Some provocation is calculated to get a reaction to benefit those doing the provocation. The NF and the BNP have a long history of organising "stunts" to which they hope to benefit from. It's one part of their development phase, as is lying through their teeth.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 25, 2012)

yes, im advocating an approrpiate and considered response - 'whatever it takes' - as there is propaganda, meetings, building in communities and with other orgs etc and do not see militancy as the only strategy or indeed for everyone (i dont expect my wee sis in SP to physically confront ANYONE!). the EDL stuff is mainly provocative as it is going into places with large asian presence to cause trouble. of course, it is also an afront to antifascists who oppose the EDL for other reasons as well. NF and BNP have been pretty much ignored by much media so have started up again on things like the charlene campaign, hijacking the 'grooming' issue and occupying rochdale town hall (tierney at the weekend). eejits!


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> UAF work with plod and willingly get penned in at times. although it is possible to argue against their tactics im glad theyre there. the fash just see everyone as against them and it demoralises them.


 
There is zero evidence to support the assertion that superior numbers alone demoralise fascists. Indeed if superior numbers are not properly deployed it just adds to the fascist sense of toxic importance - and for the young recruits in particular of being part of a defiant elite: 'the few'.


----------



## The39thStep (Jun 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is zero evidence to support the assertion that superior numbers alone demoralise fascists. Indeed if superior numbers are not properly deployed it just adds to the fascist sense of toxic importance - and for the young recruits in particular of being part of a defiant elite: 'the few'.


 
As the Martin Webster lone demo showed. I can remember big turn outs in Islington, Wood Green and elsewhere against the NF with no effect on them at all, it was only after Lewisham did the NF at my work place start looking after their backs and less like the master race.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jun 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> NF and BNP have been pretty much ignored by much media so have started up again on things like the charlene campaign, hijacking the 'grooming' issue...


 
It was in fact the BNP who were one of the first, along with possibly Anne Cryer, to draw attention to the grooming issue, at a time when the entire liberal left, media included, turned a blind eye: ' We see no groomers...' 'It's just the tabloids' etc

 So the idea that they are now 'hi-jacking' a campaign which was their initative to begin with, dosen't wash.


----------



## audiotech (Jun 26, 2012)

'The television coverage of England's Euro exit last night has been used to define Marxism, by a team of top intellectuals and respected social commentators...'​​https://p.twimg.com/AwL481ZCIAAYHcn.png​


----------



## bignose1 (Jun 26, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It was in fact the BNP who were one of the first, along with possibly Anne Cryer, to draw attention to the grooming issue, at a time when the entire liberal left, media included, turned a blind eye: ' We see no groomers...' 'It's just the tabloids' etc
> 
> So the idea that they are now 'hi-jacking' a campaign which was their initative to begin with, dosen't wash.


Just the tip Gary.....Ok Nick..


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It was in fact the BNP who were one of the first, along with possibly Anne Cryer, to draw attention to the grooming issue, at a time when the entire liberal left, media included, turned a blind eye: ' We see no groomers...' 'It's just the tabloids' etc
> 
> So the idea that they are now 'hi-jacking' a campaign which was their initative to begin with, dosen't wash.


the bnp may have started it but the casuals had reinvigorated the charlene campaign in blackpool as 1 of their little crusades and it was only after a year or so and some press coverage that nick griffin turned up there to capitalise on it. the casuals are fuming about this as it is the only thing they have achieved.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> There is zero evidence to support the assertion that superior numbers alone demoralise fascists. Indeed if superior numbers are not properly deployed it just adds to the fascist sense of toxic importance - and for the young recruits in particular of being part of a defiant elite: 'the few'.


i havent said its simply about numbers but that it's also about propaganda/media coverage and local community organisation. at the moment the EDL are the focus of antifascists and the EDL view things in terms of 'taking liberties' and 'numbers.' when the UAF and antifascists turn up in numbers the EDL go into denial mode and underplay it. when there isnt a large number of opposition they see it as a 'victory.' look at the liverpool court case and their crowing there. you only have to look at the screenshots from EDL newsxtra etc to see their soccer mentality and how they view things - 'we can have you lot anytime' 'let's meet up, you and me' etc. im talking about footsoldiers not party leaders here.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jun 27, 2012)

audiotech said:


> 'The television coverage of England's Euro exit last night has been used to define Marxism, by a team of top intellectuals and respected social commentators...'​​https://p.twimg.com/AwL481ZCIAAYHcn.png​


right, that's that sorted! i can bin me eagleton and williams books now! phew! soccer saves the day!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 3, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ta badgers and butchers! thought i was losing me touch!


Changed his plea to guilty to a lesser charge. Now adjourned for sentencing till august. Not a massive story or anything, just happened to notice it.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 3, 2012)

yeah i clocked it before. its just another embarassment for the 'law and order' party, like the recent kiddie porn bnp members  and the recent ... etc


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## The39thStep (Jul 7, 2012)

Even the Church is in the act now http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/07/church-of-england-vote-bnp


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 7, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Even the Church is in the act now http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/jul/07/*church-of-england-vote-bnp*


 
That's an unfortunate URL address.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 7, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> That's an unfortunate URL address.


 
If the BNP have got any sense they would use it


----------



## audiotech (Jul 7, 2012)

*By Election Result:Kingston Council, Grove Ward.*​Moll:Liberal Democrats 710​Amer:Conservative Party 687​South:Labour 440​Coley:Green Party 123​Watson:UKIP 56​*Child:BNP 23 (1.1%)*​Rudd:Christian Peoples Alliance 20​http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2019/bnp-crash-in-kingston​


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 7, 2012)

I'm more concerned about the Libdem result


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm more concerned about the Libdem result


 
Kingston isn't BNP material anyway


----------



## ItWillNeverWork (Jul 8, 2012)

audiotech said:


> *By Election Result:Kingston Council, Grove Ward.*​Moll:Liberal Democrats 710​Amer:Conservative Party 687​


Jesus Christ. What sort of dickheads live in Kingston?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 8, 2012)

ItWillNeverWork said:


> Jesus Christ. What sort of dickheads live in Kingston?


 
Wealthy ones?


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## audiotech (Jul 9, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Kingston isn't BNP material anyway



In that case a pointless exercise to stand a candidate there, chuck £500 in a lost deposit + cost of election material and in the process further alienate the dwindling number of BNP members.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2012)

audiotech said:
			
		

> In that case a pointless exercise to stand a candidate there, chuck £500 in a lost deposit + cost of election material and in the process further alienate the dwindling number of BNP members.


No deposits for local elections.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2012)

Ah, Griffin trying to keep the BNP brand out there by any means necessary then.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 9, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Ah, Griffin trying to keep the BNP brand out there by any means necessary then.


 
Second attempt but you right


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 9, 2012)

how long can they go on? theyve been staggering badly. the membership must be bled dry now and the local results are pitiful. you gotta give it to griffin - he's resilient!


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Jul 9, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> how long can they go on? theyve been staggering badly. the membership must be bled dry now and the local results are pitiful. you gotta give it to griffin - he's resilient!


 
Presumably it's mainly about the Euro elections now.


----------



## articul8 (Jul 9, 2012)

They'll get squeezed by UKIP.  Expect UKIP vote to rocket


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> how long can they go on? theyve been staggering badly. the membership must be bled dry now and the local results are pitiful. you gotta give it to griffin - he's resilient!


 
From this months _Searchlight_. Latest accounts showing a profit of £170,000, from a loss of £401,962 in 2010, which is some turnaround. Some talk of Patrick Harrington having joined, or joining the BNP, denied by the former NF drummer boy.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 9, 2012)

audiotech said:


> From this months _Searchlight_. Latest accounts showing a profit of £170,000, from a loss of £401,962 in 2010, which is some turnaround. Some talk of Patrick Harrington having joined, or joining the BNP, denied by the former NF drummer boy.


 
That will probably because they haven't included all the unpaid bills that would have resulted in their bankruptcy, or if they have included them, they have probably only listed them at 20p in the £, which is the amount they offered their creditors on the basis of take it or fuck off and don't get a penny.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 9, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> That will probably because they haven't included all the unpaid bills that would have resulted in their bankruptcy, or if they have included them, they have probably only listed them at 20p in the £, which is the amount they offered their creditors on the basis of take it or fuck off and don't get a penny.


 
Even "staff cuts", described as "quick but effective" have not solved the BNP's 'debt crisis'. Members informed of "several large bequeaths" this year, with the Proto-Germanic pagan "gushing" that "God is on our side", which begs the question, when's 'Thor' likely to strike?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 10, 2012)

there were rumours on the fash sites that there had been a significant inheritance left but am not sure how true that is. there was the case last week of the printer who threatened griffin over unpaid debts. for some reason, he griffin won the case. how odd!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 10, 2012)

NF flash demo in swansea on saturday. they say 30 turned up, all photos show 12, 1 dressed in ful nazi skin gear (scares passers-by, does little to change NF 1970s thug image). all holding 'hang pedos' banners. cops turn up after 20 minutes,confiscate banners, tazers drawn, 1 arrest. this apparently, is a 'succesful demo.' on opposite day!


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 10, 2012)

watmough's doing well then
http://twitpic.com/a5sy0v


----------



## Deareg (Jul 15, 2012)

That fella got two and a half years, good riddance to bad rubbish, just a pity that he did not take Griffin down with him.


----------



## krink (Jul 18, 2012)

Griffin is visiting the north to do some protest outside some sarnie shop tomorrow...

http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-meat-in-sunderland-sandwich-shops-1-4749561


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

Deareg said:


> That fella got two and a half years, good riddance to bad rubbish, just a pity that he did not take Griffin down with him.


which feller?


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

krink said:


> Griffin is visiting the north to do some protest outside some sarnie shop tomorrow...
> 
> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-meat-in-sunderland-sandwich-shops-1-4749561


 
why sunderland? theres subways everywhere. is this the last place he has any support. problem with things like this is that they are obviously publicity seeking and any counter-demo just publicises. an 'is it really worth it' dilemma.


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## Deareg (Jul 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> which feller?


Can't remember his name, he was charged with threatening Griffin and his family over an unpaid debt, I just realised I posted on the wrong thread.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

D, it was the printer david sloan who dowson offered 20p in the £ then eventually gave him nowt. then diamond jim nicked off from the BNP. total bugle.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 18, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Can't remember his name, he was charged with threatening Griffin and his family over an unpaid debt, I just realised I posted on the wrong thread.


 
Well that's understandable because the 'right thread' based on a Hope Not Hate declaration that the trial would finally expose Griffin for all sorts of corruption and deceit - the final nail in the coffin and so on - seems to have disappeared?


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 18, 2012)

krink said:


> Griffin is visiting the north to do some protest outside some sarnie shop tomorrow...
> 
> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-meat-in-sunderland-sandwich-shops-1-4749561


 
"It’s got nothing to do with religion.It’s all about the health and safety of the animals."


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## butchersapron (Jul 18, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well that's understandable because the 'right thread' based on a Hope Not Hate declaration that the trial would finally expose Griffin for all sorts of corruption and deceit - the final nail in the coffin and so on - seems to have disappeared?


Still here Joe.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 18, 2012)

krink said:


> Griffin is visiting the north to do some protest outside some sarnie shop tomorrow...
> 
> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-meat-in-sunderland-sandwich-shops-1-4749561


 
Well that answers the thread question, picketing a branch of Subway is about all they are good for now.


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## audiotech (Jul 18, 2012)

krink said:


> Griffin is visiting the north to do some protest outside some sarnie shop tomorrow...
> 
> http://www.sunderlandecho.com/news/...l-meat-in-sunderland-sandwich-shops-1-4749561


 
The BNP members (likely Griffin and minions) not doing well on the comments section.


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 18, 2012)

> WONKY-EYED MASTER RACE LEADER
> CAMPAIGNS FOR SUB HUMAN RIGHTS


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## krink (Jul 18, 2012)

boo they've turned the comments off. wish they'd turn the whole website off, it's a pile of shite that newspaper...


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

so, he has a problem with subway using halal but not when hes scoffing a curry with claudia dalgleish in a carpark.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...iffin-sex-pest-exposed-glamour-model-car.html


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## malatesta32 (Jul 18, 2012)

good HnH bit for when the BNP start up on 'pedos'
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/blog/article/2048/bnp-hypocrisy-over-paedophile
and dont go at me for the mail and HnH links either.


----------



## Gingerman (Jul 18, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> "It’s got nothing to do with religion.It’s all about the health and safety of the animals."


 
Im sure your average BNPer really gives a fuck about animal welfare when he visits his local kebab shop after a night on the piss


----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

another dismal BNP failure. turn up at subway then get moved on. all 6 of you! courtesy of matt collins.


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## bignose1 (Jul 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> another dismal BNP failure. turn up at subway then get moved on. all 6 of you! courtesy of matt collins.


Should have ciabattered them...


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## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

brilliant!


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## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Well that's understandable because the 'right thread' based on a Hope Not Hate declaration that the trial would finally expose Griffin for all sorts of corruption and deceit - the final nail in the coffin and so on - seems to have disappeared?


 
Is this the court case about debts and subsequent threats made? If so, not allowed by the order of the Judge.

Edited.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2012)

What wasn't?

(And it was crown court btw)


----------



## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> What wasn't?
> 
> (And it was crown court btw)


 
See my edit.


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## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Is this the court case about debts and subsequent threats made? If so, not allowed by the order of the magistrate.


Have you any info?


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## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

Yes, _Hope and Hate_ are saying this in a lengthy piece in their latest edition.


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## malatesta32 (Jul 19, 2012)

he was owed, he made noise, griffin snitched, guy got jail. griffin walks free again.


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## audiotech (Jul 19, 2012)

Just re-checked butchers and it was Crown Court (jaded after just going through two appeals and confusing this with the John Terry case - extreme stress over a four year period is a bugger), so according to HnH, the Judge didn't allow certain info on Griffin to be heard. He also directed the jury to ignore his past appearance on Question Time and not to carry out any internet searches on Griffin.

Edit: Loyalist paramilitary's involved too it seems.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Jul 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Is this the court case about debts and subsequent threats made? If so, not allowed by the order of the Judge.
> 
> Edited.


 The guy has been weighed off. It is surely  out of the judges hands now that the trial is over?


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## audiotech (Jul 20, 2012)

"Weighed off"? The man has been apprehended, charged, appeared in court and been convicted (acquitted on five other charges), so trial over. People can comment on the case now and they have.


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## The39thStep (Jul 20, 2012)

he has been sentenced hasn't he?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 20, 2012)

Two and a half years: http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/news/b...nick-griffin-1.975823?referrerPath=2.880/home


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## krink (Jul 20, 2012)

Just a quick note regarding yesterday's subway sarnie shop protest by the bnp - that useless tosser griffin never even showed up and the only bnp members they could get were from tyneside.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 20, 2012)




----------



## malatesta32 (Jul 21, 2012)

i believe the term 'pisspoor' is relevant for the above photo. griffclops didnt even turn up! what a fuck bugle!


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 21, 2012)

Piss poor or not the opportunities are there and sometime they come out of the blue.

I went to a meeting against a planning application for a mosque this week ( now withdrawn). Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/StockportSaysNoToTheBullsHeadMosque?ref=stream)  set up enabled  Leon mcCreery from the EDL to chair/lead   a local meeting with around 40 attending in a pub. The night before a number of residents had went to attend a local cllrs surgery and after a verbal confrontation with cllrs he persuaded them that they were wasting their time with cllrs and took them to a meeting in a church hall presumably to try and help build the meeting the following day. Couple of local BNP present and later an email intervention to the local Council by their Salford organiser offering to 'intervene'.

McCreery's line was that he was a local residents and community activist local resident is true)   and that the local community had to tick together. the area was forgotten by mainstream politicians and that when local residents stood together they would be labelled racist by those who were out of touch and only in politics for their own good. Big applause , local cllr shouted down and heckled. When someone shouted burn it down McCreery said no its a long hard campaign. and when he asked the audience would they vote for the cllrs again the audience said no and he then proposed that they would contest the next election. ( which is not for another 18 months or so). brief mentions  of mosques in Blackburn and recent events in Rochdale.When he spoke he got applauded , as I aid a few far right activists were there but the vast majority were local people.

In an area of rising unemployment and worsening local amenities the proposed conversion of a pub to a mosque isn't going to change anything but for some in the local community it is seen as part of a narrative that they live in a world that they cannot influence.Its who gets in there first with the local residents who have become energised by the planning application; the far right, Labour or something more progressive.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 28, 2012)

Heard a rumour that Nick Griffin has been slapped. Anyone heard this?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 28, 2012)

He turned up at a protest in Dalkeith about a violent rapist who's been rehoused close to the scene of his crime. Seems the protestors weren't too pleased to see him.


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 28, 2012)

Badgers said:


> Heard a rumour that Nick Griffin has been slapped. Anyone heard this?


 
Yeah, it was in last night's opening ceremony, how the fuck did you miss that?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 28, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-edinburgh-east-fife-19013637


----------



## Red About Town (Jul 28, 2012)

http://www.paisleydailyexpress.co.u...ven-arrested-during-bnp-demos-87085-31497154/


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 29, 2012)

There's a few pics in the Sun apparently.


----------



## ayatollah (Jul 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Piss poor or not the opportunities are there and sometime they come out of the blue.
> 
> I went to a meeting against a planning application for a mosque this week ( now withdrawn). Facebook page (http://www.facebook.com/StockportSaysNoToTheBullsHeadMosque?ref=stream) set up enabled Leon mcCreery from the EDL to chair/lead a local meeting with around 40 attending in a pub. The night before a number of residents had went to attend a local cllrs surgery and after a verbal confrontation with cllrs he persuaded them that they were wasting their time with cllrs and took them to a meeting in a church hall presumably to try and help build the meeting the following day. Couple of local BNP present and later an email intervention to the local Council by their Salford organiser offering to 'intervene'.
> 
> ...


 

I'm really touched by your concern that the local Stockport community will lose a vital "local amenity" if one of Stockport's huge number of pubs ceases to be a pub !   Of course the move to posher wine bars, and the fall in consumer spending power  means pubs are closing all over the UK.. because they aren't commercially viable. That is no doubt why the Bulls Head was available for sale for conversion to a Mosque.  So why do you appear to sympathise with those people in Stockport who rabidly object to a new mosque, the 39th Step ? The "reducing local amenities" line is bollocks. There simply is no "progressive" basis for opposing the creation of a mosque in Stockport to serve that local religious community of citizens...... only bigotry, Islamophobia  and racism, and mealie mouthed ,slippery,  concessions to racism and bigotry..... dressed up as a concern for local "amenities" , and sympathy for  "some people" in the local community feeling stressed out by rapid social change ... yup, that's the racists and bigots again.

Are the IWCA going to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the BNP on any local demos/pickets against the creation of this mosque if the application goes in again ? From a purely "progressive, pro working class position" of course !


----------



## Dreich (Jul 29, 2012)

Here's the link to the story in the Sun, top picture is a corker:
http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sco...P-chiefs-terror-in-clash-with-protesters.html
Griffin looks like he's about to burst into tears.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I'm really touched by your concern that the local Stockport community will lose a vital "local amenity" if one of Stockport's huge number of pubs ceases to be a pub ! Of course the move to posher wine bars, and the fall in consumer spending power means pubs are closing all over the UK.. because they aren't commercially viable. That is no doubt why the Bulls Head was available for sale for conversion to a Mosque. So why do you appear to sympathise with those people in Stockport who rabidly object to a new mosque, the 39th Step ? The "reducing local amenities" line is bollocks. There simply is no "progressive" basis for opposing the creation of a mosque in Stockport to serve that local religious community of citizens...... only bigotry, Islamophobia and racism, and mealie mouthed ,slippery, concessions to racism and bigotry..... dressed up as a concern for local "amenities" , and sympathy for "some people" in the local community feeling stressed out by rapid social change ... yup, that's the racists and bigots again.
> 
> Are the IWCA going to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the BNP on any local demos/pickets against the creation of this mosque if the application goes in again ? From a purely "progressive, pro working class position" of course !


I think that you need to re-read 39steps posts again, then have another go at a reply based on what he actually said rather (this sort of thing for example:'In an area of rising unemployment and worsening local amenities the proposed conversion of a pub to a mosque isn't going to change anything' which becomes in your febrile imagination 'concern that the local Stockport community will lose a vital "local amenity" - in which you also put the words of the EDL bloke into 39steps mouth - or where he highlights the narrative the BNP and edl are tring to sell as working class concern rather supporting it) than the rant-enabling strawman that you manged to come up with.

You should be ASHAMED of that post - politically and personally.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jul 29, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I'm really touched by your concern that the local Stockport community will lose a vital "local amenity" if one of Stockport's huge number of pubs ceases to be a pub ! Of course the move to posher wine bars, and the fall in consumer spending power means pubs are closing all over the UK.. because they aren't commercially viable. That is no doubt why the Bulls Head was available for sale for conversion to a Mosque. So why do you appear to sympathise with those people in Stockport who rabidly object to a new mosque, the 39th Step ? The "reducing local amenities" line is bollocks. There simply is no "progressive" basis for opposing the creation of a mosque in Stockport to serve that local religious community of citizens...... only bigotry, Islamophobia and racism, and mealie mouthed ,slippery, concessions to racism and bigotry..... dressed up as a concern for local "amenities" , and sympathy for "some people" in the local community feeling stressed out by rapid social change ... yup, that's the racists and bigots again.
> 
> Are the IWCA going to be standing shoulder to shoulder with the BNP on any local demos/pickets against the creation of this mosque if the application goes in again ? From a purely "progressive, pro working class position" of course !


 
Rather disingenuous.  

Cunt.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 29, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Piss poor or not the opportunities are there and sometime they come out of the blue.


 
How is a campaign against the opening of a mosque an "opportunity?"

An opportunity for what?


----------



## claphamboy (Jul 29, 2012)

Dreich said:


> Here's the link to the story in the Sun, top picture is a corker:
> http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sco...P-chiefs-terror-in-clash-with-protesters.html
> Griffin looks like he's about to burst into tears.


 
He's not happy, is he? 

This makes claphamboy a very happy chappy.


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## Badgers (Jul 29, 2012)

“I hope the people who are protesting us feel ashamed if their daughter or grand-daughter is raped next — maybe they would change their minds.”

He is a fucking class act isn't he ^


----------



## Ranbay (Jul 29, 2012)

Dreich said:


> Here's the link to the story in the Sun, top picture is a corker:
> http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sco...P-chiefs-terror-in-clash-with-protesters.html
> Griffin looks like he's about to burst into tears.


 
That photo is ace, one guy has a sweet in his hand and the other a fag and lighter.... lol


----------



## Gingerman (Jul 29, 2012)

Got some right aul meatheads around him


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## ayatollah (Jul 29, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I think that you need to re-read 39steps posts again, then have another go at a reply based on what he actually said rather (this sort of thing for example:'In an area of rising unemployment and worsening local amenities the proposed conversion of a pub to a mosque isn't going to change anything' which becomes in your febrile imagination 'concern that the local Stockport community will lose a vital "local amenity" - in which you also put the words of the EDL bloke into 39steps mouth - or where he highlights the narrative the BNP and edl are tring to sell as working class concern rather supporting it) than the rant-enabling strawman that you manged to come up with.
> 
> You should be ASHAMED of that post - politically and personally.


 

Do me a huge favour Butchers.. spare me your sanctimonious, dishonest, bullshit. An entire key element of the IWCA "offer" is to skirt slimely around , and compromise with, the issue of some backward, reactionery, sections of the white working class's generalised hostility to Black and Asian people, by your own special negative use of the term "multiculturalism", and to allude and indeed collude with the idea that "grooming" is an especially Asian crime . Indeed "Joe" seems in some of his posts to really rate the BNP's campaigning work to "expose" this (completely bogus) "asian problem", which it most definitely isn't - most young people are abused by their own white fathers, and abuse rings are overwhelmingly WHITE). You choose to select and to publicise on your own website a Daily Telegraph "expose" of the bogus crap that migrant workers destroy local jobs (whereas strangely enough Socialist Worker recently chose a completely different report/study to "prove" the exact opposite -- it all depends what you want to highlight and "prove" doesn't it ).

The Bulls Head is on Gorton Road in  Reddish, on the fringes of an area where there are a lot of asian residents, rather than Stockport itself. I know the area very well, and some of the key very long term fascists in the area. There is a large and extremely well rooted BNP branch in central Reddish, which is a classic run down area populated by relatively poor , unorganised, poorly educated, often unemployed, white working class people , who have managed to ensure through direct action that very few asians or blacks can live on some particular large housing estates where the BNP is strong. The asian population lives therefore in pretty segregated areas . This entire campaign is whipped up by the local BNP to feed on the fears and hopelessness. It is the absolute right of local Asian people to seek to purchase a building to practice their religion. The job of the Left (and indeed "progressives" surely ?)in this situation is to defend the right of Muslims, Jews, Hindus, etc, to peacefully pursue their religious practices. I don't suppose the39th Step spoke up for the right of free religious worship at the meeting he attended ? Simply stating the obvious that the Left or "progressives" need to work on these white estates to organise against local austerity /cuts/poverty issues, is a banal truism. At no point have you deigned to express any support for the absolute right of ethnic minorities to practice their religions, and legally acquire premises to do so. That is no accident. Try to compete with the BNP on an unprincipled, non socialist, platform amongst the white proletariat, and you soon end up in very strange political waters indeed.

Those "energised" from a racist direction by the issue of a planning application for a mosque are not in the short or medium term going to be open to "progressives" (whoever they are, not socialists apparently) arguing any sort of anti racist/ defending the rights of religious minorities" message. Better to campaign amongst the majority of Reddish residents who aren't "energised" by racism ands Islamophobia - as the majority of the people at the meeting will definitely have already been part of the Reddish BNP's historically large periphery and voting strength.

Shame on you, its all a LONG, long, way from the glory days of RA , in time and politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2012)

You're not going to even mention how you twisted 39 steps post, putting firstly, as his own the exact opposite to what he put forward, then following this up by putting the paraphrased words of the edl bloke in his mouth - despite these words again being the exact opposite of what 39teps actualy argued. Remember when people like you could identify what the far-right were doing and were able to describe it accurately without being bothered by flabby types squealing at you that you were echoing the fascists narrative? You are now the flabby squealer.

None of the above from you deals with - not even by accident - the points made by 39steps about the attraction of these sort of campaigns for the alienated, those who not only think, but know, they've been dumped in the bin. Of course the far-right are trying to use this  -  what else would they do? The question is why you cannot see anything here beyond this? Have you really blinded yourself so? To point out other - larger - social dynamics at work here, and the opps these open up (which you despite your alternate _hah see IWCA the fascists aren't coming_/_OMG global collapse the fascists are coming!! _posts) should be the start point of any sort of sustained campaign to engage with and help develop, further and re-make the sort of w/c solidarity that's requied before your dappy SOCIALISM now rhetoric can even start to mean a damn thing.

The above post from you is pure apoliticism. Come up with a program, proclaim it. Job done.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2012)

I wouldn't mind if Ayatollah could even gets his facts right about Reddish .


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2012)

Dreich said:


> Here's the link to the story in the Sun, top picture is a corker:
> http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/sco...P-chiefs-terror-in-clash-with-protesters.html
> Griffin looks like he's about to burst into tears.


 
And him a boxing blue too!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 29, 2012)

Gingerman said:


> Got some right aul meatheads around him


 
Meatheads?
Pie thieves, more like!!


----------



## where to (Jul 29, 2012)

worth noting and emphasising that it was, apparently, those who are protesting against the rehousing of the convicted rapist that took direct action against Griffin.  i.e. the mob that some would label fascist or whatever, blocking the fascist.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 29, 2012)

where to said:


> worth noting and emphasising that it was, apparently, those who are protesting against the rehousing of the convicted rapist that took direct action against Griffin. i.e. the mob that some would label fascist or whatever, blocking the fascist.


 
Yup - they want the rapist to fuck off out of their community but they're not interested in having that hijacked or made capital out of by the BNP


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 29, 2012)

where to said:


> worth noting and emphasising that it was, apparently, those who are protesting against the rehousing of the convicted rapist that took direct action against Griffin. i.e. the mob that some would label fascist or whatever, blocking the fascist.


 
I don't believe that's true. But im not 100%


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 29, 2012)

The chap who attacked NG was purely against the BNP.

Although I think its fair if the community doesn't want a rapist in its midst.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2012)

where to said:


> worth noting and emphasising that it was, apparently, those who are protesting against the rehousing of the convicted rapist that took direct action against Griffin. i.e. the mob that some would label fascist or whatever, blocking the fascist.


Interesting. I remember them rehousing paedo killer Robert Oliver (after trying to house cooke himself down here previously) down here a few years back and there was sustained local protest which the BNP tried to get a bit of - told to quietly leave. On here and elsewhere we were regaled of tales of right-wing mobs with pitchforks and so on. Lots of tutting.


----------



## fiannanahalba (Jul 29, 2012)

Dont know about the direct action but they were fully opposed to the BNP trying to latch onto their campaign and seen them as the racist/fascists they are. Fair play to the Dalkeith residents.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> I don't believe that's true. But im not 100%


 
You don't believe what isn't true?


----------



## weepiper (Jul 29, 2012)

This from the Edinburgh Evening News the day before

http://www.scotsman.com/news/bnp-ca...ck-griffin-plans-to-join-protestors-1-2435726



> Protest leader Kelly Parry said: “We were donated those placards and accepted them in good faith. These guys just turned up at the protest and began handing them out. They just read “Pro Fam: Protecting the Family”, nobody had a clue as to their political connotations. In actual fact we turned away a number of people who arrived wearing BNP T-shirts.
> “As a campaign we do not support or condone the views of the SDL or BNP in any way, in fact we strongly oppose their views.”


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 29, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> You don't believe what isn't true?


 
That the guy who attacked NG was there to be against the rapist and the BNP.

And it isn't true. The residents were there against the rapist and the BNP but not the lad who slapped NG.


----------



## weepiper (Jul 29, 2012)

and some background here

http://www.scotsman.com/scotland-on...tests-continue-over-da-vinci-rapist-1-2385952


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 29, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Interesting. I remember them rehousing paedo killer Robert Oliver (after trying to house cooke himself down here previously) down here a few years back and there was sustained local protest which the BNP tried to get a bit of - told to quietly leave. On here and elsewhere we were regaled of tales of right-wing mobs with pitchforks and so on. Lots of tutting.


Here is that thread.


----------



## love detective (Jul 29, 2012)

where to said:


> worth noting and emphasising that it was, apparently, those who are protesting against the rehousing of the convicted rapist that took direct action against Griffin. i.e. the mob that some would label fascist or whatever, blocking the fascist.


 
yep - kind of makes a mockery of those on here who equate those who want to regain some kind of control over their communities as reactionary/fascist etc..


----------



## where to (Jul 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> That the guy who attacked NG was there to be against the rapist and the BNP.
> 
> And it isn't true. The residents were there against the rapist and the BNP but not the lad who slapped NG.


 
you might be right re: the individual who attached Griffin and got lifted. my source was main stream media - hence "apparently". what's your source?

either way, the fact that the anti-beast protesters also turned out against griffin was as much my point.


----------



## Fedayn (Jul 29, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> That the guy who attacked NG was there to be against the rapist and the BNP.
> 
> And it isn't true. The residents were there against the rapist and the BNP but not the lad who slapped NG.


 
It wasn't just him who confronted the BNP by the way. The residents did too and are quoted quite clearly in their oppostion to his politics.


----------



## The39thStep (Jul 29, 2012)

I suspect Ayotolah will be on here in a minute to tell the Dalkeith resident off for not supporting the right to rehabilitation


----------



## Red Storm (Jul 30, 2012)

where to said:


> you might be right re: the individual who attached Griffin and got lifted. my source was main stream media - hence "apparently". what's your source?
> 
> either way, the fact that the anti-beast protesters also turned out against griffin was as much my point.


 
My source is the chap who slapped him. 

I don't know about the other protesters, I've not asked. 

It seems like there was a crew out for the BNP and then the residents protesting against the rapist and the BNP.


----------



## Dreich (Jul 30, 2012)

The whole weekend has been a humiliation for the far right in Scotland, first the SDL drop out of the BNP's anti-police demo in Glasgow as their collars start getting felt, then the BNP cancel their demo altogether, allegedly at the request of the police, despite the demo being to show how they weren't going to be pushed around by the state. Then three members of their splinter group Britannica turn up on the day to find themselves outnumbered 100 to 1 and then Griffin gets lamped in a photogenic fashion. 
The bungling BNP Scotland furher has actually thanked the press on the BNP Scotland blog for their coverage! Mind you, this is probably the first time he's managed to get the BNP in the papers without trading off his famous step-sister.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 30, 2012)

Dreich said:


> The whole weekend has been a humiliation for the far right in Scotland, first the SDL drop out of the BNP's anti-police demo in Glasgow as their collars start getting felt, then the BNP cancel their demo altogether, allegedly at the request of the police, despite the demo being to show how they weren't going to be pushed around by the state. Then three members of their splinter group Britannica turn up on the day to find themselves outnumbered 100 to 1 and then Griffin gets lamped in a photogenic fashion.
> The bungling BNP Scotland furher has actually thanked the press on the BNP Scotland blog for their coverage! Mind you, this is probably the first time he's managed to get the BNP in the papers without trading off his famous step-sister.


 
Who is his famous step sister?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Here is that thread.


 
I'd forgotten how fucking awful some of the shit on that thread was.


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## butchersapron (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm just glad i was banned at the time.


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## treelover (Jul 30, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I suspect Ayotolah will be on here in a minute to tell the Dalkeith resident off for not supporting the right to rehabilitation


 

slightly off topic but i have just found out that someone i have respected as a long time community campaigner and champion of the marginalised has in the past been prosecuted twice for child abuse, it was many years ago and they have served their time, I don't see this person very often now, but I really am wondering how i will respond if and when i see them again, I don't think i will be hounding them to leave the area though...


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 30, 2012)

treelover said:


> slightly off topic but i have just found out that someone i have respected as a long time community campaigner and champion of the marginalised has in the past been prosecuted twice for child abuse, it was many years ago and they have served their time, I don't see this person very often now, but I really am wondering how i will respond if and when i see them again, I don't think i will be hounding them to leave the area though...


 
Do you think this particular type of leopard (twice convicted child abuser) can change their spots?


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 30, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Do me a huge favour Butchers.. spare me your sanctimonious, dishonest, bullshit. An entire key element of the IWCA "offer" is to skirt slimely around , and compromise with, the issue of some backward, reactionery, sections of the white working class's generalised hostility to Black and Asian people, by your own special negative use of the term "multiculturalism", and to allude and indeed collude with the idea that "grooming" is an especially Asian crime . Indeed "Joe" seems in some of his posts to really rate the BNP's campaigning work to "expose" this (completely bogus) "asian problem", which it most definitely isn't - most young people are abused by their own white fathers, and abuse rings are overwhelmingly WHITE).


It seems you would prefer these very specific Muslim grooming circles (not asian) to be not highlighted at all. On the basis that it gives succour to reactionary sections of the  white working class. And of course in that you would not be alone. But it is precisely this mealy-mouth and proprietorial attitude in shaping 'anti-racism' that a) has caused many of the problems to begin with and b) has helped the BNP present itself as as the radical truth-givers on this issue and others, particulalry the working class areas abandoned by the left half a century ago.
Of course as soon as someone sets out the remedy that very specific and obvious failing they are immediately regarded as suspect and tagged with being a BNP fellow traveller. The question as to why sections of the working class appear to be increasingly 'reactionary' is never asked. Hilarious really. The real elephant in the room here is the spit-flecked contempt for 'WHITE' working class people by those who, who intellectually and emotionally have over time managed to convince themselves that there is no contradiction between being both anti-working class and left-wing, and be vocal about it. 'Anti-racism really does make it ok to hate the poor'.


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## Gingerman (Jul 30, 2012)

Badgers said:


> “I hope the people who are protesting us feel ashamed if their daughter or grand-daughter is raped next — maybe they would change their minds.”
> 
> He is a fucking class act isn't he ^


Sounds like wishful thinking on Fatboy's part


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## Dreich (Jul 30, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Who is his famous step sister?


 
KT Tunstall, she was adopted, met her mother as an adult but disowned her when she found out that her step dad and brother were BNP activists. He got sacked from his job as a bouncer at a local gay club when his political activities came to light. The local paper covered it, but the bulk of the article covered his relationship with his step sister, suggesting he'd to barter this for getting the story in.
http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...f-prejudice-says-sacked-bnp-bouncer-1-2354481


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## bignose1 (Jul 30, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It seems you would prefer these very specific Muslim grooming circles (not asian) to be not highlighted at all. On the basis that it gives succour to reactionary sections of the white working class. And of course in that you would not be alone. But it is precisely this mealy-mouth and proprietorial attitude in shaping 'anti-racism' that a) has caused many of the problems to begin with and b) has helped the BNP present itself as as the radical truth-givers on this issue and others, particulalry the working class areas abandoned by the left half a century ago.
> Of course as soon as someone sets out the remedy that very specific and obvious failing they are immediately regarded as suspect and tagged with being a BNP fellow traveller. The question as to why sections of the working class appear to be increasingly 'reactionary' is never asked. Hilarious really. The real elephant in the room here is the spit-flecked contempt for 'WHITE' working class people by those who, who intellectually and emotionally have over time managed to convince themselves that there is no contradiction between being both anti-working class and left-wing, and be vocal about it. 'Anti-racism really does make it ok to hate the poor'.


EEEEEEEEEEHaaaaaaaaaa Floyd got us here some nigger lovers....cant be having these jew boys down from the north solving our nigger problem...lets see what they say in the saloon...


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## Captain Hurrah (Jul 30, 2012)

I'm white and working class. Mrs Hurrah is not white and is working class. ayatollah is a white middle class MUPPET.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 30, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> View attachment 21656
> EEEEEEEEEEHaaaaaaaaaa Floyd got us here some nigger lovers....cant be having these jew boys down from the north solving our nigger problem...lets see what they say in the saloon...


 
It's for others to judge, but I'd say you've probably surpassed yourself there.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 30, 2012)

Dreich said:


> KT Tunstall, she was adopted, met her mother as an adult but disowned her when she found out that her step dad and brother were BNP activists. He got sacked from his job as a bouncer at a local gay club when his political activities came to light. The local paper covered it, but the bulk of the article covered his relationship with his step sister, suggesting he'd to barter this for getting the story in.
> http://www.scotsman.com/edinburgh-e...f-prejudice-says-sacked-bnp-bouncer-1-2354481


 
Cheers.


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## bignose1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It's for others to judge, but I'd say you've probably surpassed yourself there.


I think when it comes to surpassing oneself then youve won Olympic Gold on that. You bring shame on the anti fascsist movement, you besmirch its history with this pandering to the racist and fascists. Your ideology is poisonous and malign. And dangerous. You have no obligation now to antifascism so take your medal and fuck off. Your rhetoric is Strasserite. Thankfully in these places where you spout this nonsense you will have little influence bar a few cronies..a handful of sad men...thinking their still anti fascist heavy weights...when in reality your nothing.I await seeing your presence demonstrating against moqsues and lining up with the baying mobs at council meetings.... youll really do wonders for the proud legacy of Manchester Anti Fascism.
Oh yes I can hear it now...all the Searchlight bollox..but I tell you the many messages Ive had have fucked you right off....so go and reel out the same old shit...it doesnt work anymore. You should hang your heads in shame.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 31, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> I'm white and working class.


 
Vile racist


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## DaveCinzano (Jul 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Your rhetoric is Strasserite.


 
Now that's a step up from "You spilled my pint"


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## love detective (Jul 31, 2012)

'_overwhelming messages of support'_


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## articul8 (Jul 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It seems you would prefer these very specific Muslim grooming circles (not asian) to be not highlighted at all.


 
If (big if) you're correct that there is a culturally specific problem with certain communities with majority Pakistani populations (which is I assume what you're saying here, correct me if I'm wrong...), what do you suggest doing about it?


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## bignose1 (Jul 31, 2012)

love detective said:


> '_overwhelming messages of support'_


 Yeah thats right.....and these cunts think they can swagger through anti fascist history like they fucking own it. And any one who dares show anything different is either a spy, coward, grass, lefty, muppet, fantasist, wanker( and thats just me.) Oh yes me old china (stu is it?)people who may not feel up to posting because of the shite they get off this gang ....agree with the fact that most decent anti fascists wouldnt touch its ideology with a bargepole. Dangerous stuff, but hopefully because of the calibre/numbers of people behind it mean its sufficiently fucked to cause any real damage.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> I think when it comes to surpassing oneself then youve won Olympic Gold on that. You bring shame on the anti fascsist movement, you besmirch its history with this pandering to the racist and fascists. Your ideology is poisonous and malign. And dangerous. You have no obligation now to antifascism so take your medal and fuck off. Your rhetoric is Strasserite. Thankfully in these places where you spout this nonsense you will have little influence bar a few cronies..a handful of sad men...thinking their still anti fascist heavy weights...when in reality your nothing.I await seeing your presence demonstrating against moqsues and lining up with the baying mobs at council meetings.... youll really do wonders for the proud legacy of Manchester Anti Fascism.
> Oh yes I can hear it now...all the Searchlight bollox..but I tell you Ive had overwhelming messages of support on this....so go and reel out the same old shit...it doesnt work. You should hang your heads in shame.


 
Brilliant stuff. Your on a roll.


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 31, 2012)

love detective said:


> '_overwhelming messages of support'_


 
Yep, the silent majority.


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## bignose1 (Jul 31, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Brilliant stuff. Your on a roll.


No Im on Becks Vier premium...ice cold on the beach Gaz.


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## bignose1 (Jul 31, 2012)

love detective said:


> '_overwhelming messages of support'_


 Yeah does sound naff Ive changed it


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## audiotech (Jul 31, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> No Im on Becks Vier premium...ice cold on the beach...


 
As Tommy Trinder would have put it: "You lucky people".


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## Joe Reilly (Jul 31, 2012)

articul8 said:


> If (big if) you're correct that there is a culturally specific problem with certain communities with majority Pakistani populations (which is I assume what you're saying here, correct me if I'm wrong...), what do you suggest doing about it?


 
It's not so much a case of what you do - but what you don't do - you don't deny (uaf), you don't suggest it is all got up by the tabloids, (ayatollah), you don't try for mitigation by pointing the fingers at the victims, you don't try and censor debate (big nose) and you don't, at this late stage, address the question with 'a big if' (articlul8).
You don't in other words get locked in behind the 8 ball.

More broadly what is happening here is the erasing of the distinction between criticising minority's on egregious grounds, and the criticism of a minority on _any_ grounds, fgm, for example.


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## audiotech (Aug 1, 2012)

On the specific "cultural" issue? Someone, I think it was an article in _The Guardian_, asserted that grooming is "unheard" of in Pakistan? Don't know about that?

They also stated that a number of men (white males, apart from one Asian male) had been in court, convicted on similar offences to those in Rochdale, involving young, vulnerable girls and the media had largely ignored these. Although, it should be noted that these cases were all separate from one and other.

Denying that it happens? Clearly not. A crude attempt to shift the blame away from the men involved and blame the victims? No, the article condemned all the perpetrators. Blaming the media? Well, for ignoring the specific cases mentioned, yes certainly.

The question of what you do to address the abuse can't be avoided here, but those put forward aren't new; i,e to "counter stereotypes" and to 'stop the crimes happenning in the first place'. Well yes.

It is clearly politically inept to shy away from the "elephant in the room" - particularly when the person saying it is a British citizen, originally from Pakistan - that: "Asian men are disproportionately responsible for on-street grooming". He also goes on to state that: "There is no community where women and girls are not vulnerable to sexual attack and that's a fact." It is still a fact too that the majority of cases of sexual assault, including the Rochdale grooming offences, involve men as the perpetrators.

I'll go further and to say it's also important to expose those who seek to distort perceptions for their own agenda. Marai Larasi, a director of Imkaan and co-chair of the End Violence Against Women Coalition, warns:


> An excessive focus on some cases of sexual exploitation with a primary focus on ethnicity rather than the exploitation itself is misleading and fuels racist attitudes which ultimately won't help women and girls.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/09/rochdale-grooming-trial-race


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## malatesta32 (Aug 1, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> My source is the chap who slapped him.
> 
> I don't know about the other protesters, I've not asked.
> 
> It seems like there was a crew out for the BNP and then the residents protesting against the rapist and the BNP.


 
please pass on our bestest regards to the guy. i love the fact he's got a fag on. great pix.


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## articul8 (Aug 1, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> It's not so much a case of what you do - but what you don't do - you don't deny (uaf), you don't suggest it is all got up by the tabloids, (ayatollah), you don't try for mitigation by pointing the fingers at the victims, you don't try and censor debate (big nose) and you don't, at this late stage, address the question with 'a big if' (articlul8).
> You don't in other words get locked in behind the 8 ball.
> 
> More broadly what is happening here is the erasing of the distinction between criticising minority's on egregious grounds, and the criticism of a minority on _any_ grounds, fgm, for example.


 
Abusive and predatory sexual (group?) behaviour is a problem which takes a variety of forms across a variety of cultures - street grooming is one form, online another, girls are also frequently group raped by drugs gangs (both majority black and of mixed ethnicities), its victims include men as well as women (endemic male rape of civilians by both government and rebels in DRC for eg.) etc.. 

Certainly you don't exonerate any particular community where this becomes normalised.  But neither should you begin with an already demonised group and suggest they are somehow uniquely evil.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Certainly you don't exonerate any particular community where this becomes normalised. But neither should you begin with an already demonised group and suggest they are somehow uniquely evil.


 
What do you mean by 'begin with'? That white paedos had a free pass until Muslims started doing it and sort ruined it for everyone else? In fact as is often the case there is some evidence to suggest that precisely because it was Muslims involved and thus deemed 'sensistive' by the powers that be, it was they who got the free pass.

Finally, is not that the Muslim gangs involved are uniquely evil, but nor is it, as the Islamphobia lobby would have it, that they are _uniquely demonised _either_. _


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## ayatollah (Aug 1, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Abusive and predatory sexual (group?) behaviour is a problem which takes a variety of forms across a variety of cultures - street grooming is one form, online another, girls are also frequently group raped by drugs gangs (both majority black and of mixed ethnicities), its victims include men as well as women (endemic male rape of civilians by both government and rebels in DRC for eg.) etc..
> 
> Certainly you don't exonerate any particular community where this becomes normalised. But neither should you begin with an already demonised group and suggest they are somehow uniquely evil.


 
Quite right in part articul8, noone suggests that there aren't specific criminal gangs , who are Muslim in cultural background, who have engaged in criminal "grooming" of girls (and some boys) for prostitution purposes. However, we also have to remember, that most of these white girls were already abused by their white fathers and other family members (this is simply a well researched fact). also the majority of child/young people abuse rings in the UK are populated by members of the White community. To focus down solely on Muslim criminals,(and essentially ignore the others) as the BNP do, and as the IWCA  appear to do too in their selective interventions on this issue, is simply to play the racist game of demonisation of an entire ethnic/religious community, to pander to , and justify, the broader bigotry of sections of the white community. Other than pogroming/exterminating and deporting these demonised ethnic groups, as a "Final Solution", this ongoing scapegoating and bigging up of problem behaviour by a minority of minority ethnic groups, has no outcome other than to divide the multi ethnic UK working class (Yeh Joe most of these Muslims are WORKERS too !) in the face of the bosses' offensive.

As Bignose quite rightly says, there is, and poisonously has been for years, a strong element of confused "Lumpen Strasserism" in the dishonest, pseudo radical, positions and attitudes of the tiny rump of ex-RA posting on these threads. It was always going to be a danger that if a group oriented its political activity entirely towards a romanticised "they/we are the only real workers" orientation on the Lumpen White Working Class, in direct non-socialist competition with the BNP, it would eventually itself take on some of the most reactionery views and false priorities rampant amongst this particular hyper-oppressed but often profoundly reactionery sub-set of the wider UK Working Class. Tragically, this appears to be what has happened. Socialists beware.


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## love detective (Aug 1, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> It was always going to be a danger that if a group oriented its political activity entirely towards a romanticised "they/we are the only real workers" orientation on the Lumpen White Working Class, in direct non-socialist competition with the BNP, it would eventually itself take on some of the most reactionery views and false priorities rampant amongst this particular hyper-oppressed but often profoundly reactionery sub-set of the wider UK Working Class.


 
putting aside the extraordinary length of the above sentence

i'm amused that for some time now on boards like this, the IWCA has been attacked for pointing out the latent/potential/actual reactionary threat from within a section of the working class (rather than pretending it doesn't exist like most of the left).

Now however, it appears that those who previously attacked the IWCA for doing this, are using that exact same analysis that they objected to of the IWCA to now attack the IWCA with

The difference seems to be though that for the IWCA this 'lumpen' element is a potentially (and existing) dangerous minority within the wider working class of all colours, for ayatollah on the other hand it appears to be the white working class writ large

Socialists be beware indeed


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## cantsin (Aug 1, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> What do you mean by 'begin with'? That white paedos had a free pass until Muslims started doing it and sort ruined it for everyone else? In fact as is often the case there is some evidence to suggest that precisely because it was Muslims involved and thus deemed 'sensistive' by the powers that be, it was they who got the free pass.
> 
> Finally, is not that the Muslim gangs involved are uniquely evil, but nor is it, as the Islamphobia lobby would have it, that they are _uniquely demonised _either_. _


 
I could be wrong, but of the 100''s of peados Ive read/heard about via the media over decades, I can't remember hearing references to the religion of the perps ever until the 'Muslims' , so there is a'unique' _angle_ to their demonisation_ ?_


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2012)

[quote="ayatollah, post: 11397984, member: 50726[/quote]

_"As Bignose quite rightly says..."_


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I could be wrong, but of the 100''s of peados Ive read/heard about via the media over decades, I can't remember hearing references to the religion of the perps ever until the 'Muslims' , so there is a'unique' _angle_ to their demonisation_ ?_


 
In actual fact the media referred to them as 'Asian' to begin with anyway. It is Muslims who define themselves by their religion, that is the identity they choose for themselves. So it twists it more than a little bit to denounce the mass media for bringing religion into it - to say define the suicide bombers in any other way - when that is their reason for being  - and then not being.  Special pleading after the fact does no one any favours. It is in fact no more than an additional garland for the BNP et al


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## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I could be wrong, but of the 100''s of peados Ive read/heard about via the media over decades, I can't remember hearing references to the religion of the perps ever until the 'Muslims' , so there is a'unique' _angle_ to their demonisation_ ?_


you are wrong.

next.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 1, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I could be wrong, but of the 100''s of peados Ive read/heard about via the media over decades, I can't remember hearing references to the religion of the perps ever until the 'Muslims' , so there is a'unique' _angle_ to their demonisation_ ?_


So the catholic priests evaded you?


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## The39thStep (Aug 1, 2012)

cantsin said:


> I could be wrong, but of the 100''s of peados Ive read/heard about via the media over decades, I can't remember hearing references to the religion of the perps ever until the 'Muslims' , so there is a'unique' _angle_ to their demonisation_ ?_


 
There was little reference in reporting  to religious background for offenders aside from where the crime was suppose to have a 'religious context' ie sectarianism full stop. Decades ago it was Asian or black or white.

At the same time there were few  pressure groups amongst those from an Indian Subcontinent background that dwelt on being Muslim, by and large these groups were concerned with wider issues. Keen Malik looks at this in one of his books.

I suspect the whole cultural/religion labelling is actually not so much the result of some campaign to demonise anyone but ironically the result of pressure groups,' community leaders' and other people who find a niche in promoting the uniqueness of  'isms' in a political and financial context where class means nothing but 'isms' do.


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## cantsin (Aug 1, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> So the catholic priests evaded you?


 
true, but Priests/ like Teachers , ie : person in authority/the institution in which they abuse, seems the focus there ?


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2012)

cantsin said:


> true, but Priests/ like Teachers , ie : person in authority/the institution in which they abuse, seems the focus there ?


 
'The institution in which they abuse' in commonly known as the Catholic Church.


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## Riklet (Aug 1, 2012)

Primary identity:

[]Catholic Paedophile
[]Irish Paedophile
[]British Asian Paedophile
[x]Muslim Paedophile
[]Other Paedophile (please specify) _________

Since when did a load of blokes working in take away shops or whatnot who have done street grooming/abuse 'primarily identify as Muslim'? Where's the evidence for that? Seems total bollocks comparing it to institutional abuse within religious organisations or churches like with abuse in the Catholic church.

What context do people primarily identify by their religion and why? Is it a pressing priority here? I think lots of the IWCA type analysis of the street grooming stuff is good and avoids lefty hand wringing and those who won't focus upon the real issues but wtf, this focus upon 'Muslim' as a social/cultural category? Because that's how 'they' see themselves? That's total rubbish. It is in itself reverting to the identity politics and ethnic/religious pidgeon-holing and boxing that your position supposedly criticises.

...Unless i'm mistaken and this is an analsis of power, religion and cultural practises in general in terms of prospensity towards unequal power relations and the abuse that often results?


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 1, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> There was little reference in reporting to religious background for offenders aside from where the crime was suppose to have a 'religious context' ie sectarianism full stop. Decades ago it was Asian or black or white.
> 
> At the same time there were few pressure groups amongst those from an Indian Subcontinent background that dwelt on being Muslim, by and large these groups were concerned with wider issues. Keen Malik looks at this in one of his books.
> 
> I suspect the whole cultural/religion labelling is actually not so much the result of some campaign to demonise anyone but ironically the result of pressure groups,' community leaders' and other people who find a niche in promoting the uniqueness of 'isms' in a political and financial context where class means nothing but 'isms' do.


 
Quiet right. Up until the Salman Rushdie affair, Muslims had no political focus. Religious indentity and religious expression was an essentially private affair, or appeared to be from the outside. Now the cultural/political/regious are a blend. So any comment deemed by liberals or Muslim activists to be 'offensive' ie not slavishly congratulatory, is instantly condemned as 'racist'.


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## cantsin (Aug 1, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Quiet right. Up until the Salman Rushdie affair, Muslims had no political focus. Religious indentity and religious expression was an essentially private affair, or appeared to be from the outside. Now the cultural/political/regious are a blend. So any comment deemed by liberals or Muslim activists to be 'offensive' ie not slavishly congratulatory, is instantly condemned as 'racist'.


 
simplistic to see change in Islamic self - identification in pre/post Rushdie terms, or even pre-post Iran 79', it's part of a a global geo political shift centred around the post war US / Oil / Israel situation, but agree 100 % how that shift in self identification has played into the non classist/'dented shield'  labour politics of the 80's/early 90's and beyond, and has lead to over sensitivity any criticism of Islam etc . But all that said, doesnt then mean that the reporting of / reaction to the recent 'grooming ' cases has been accurate / fair minded .


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## articul8 (Aug 1, 2012)

There's a dodgy semantic chain lurking in the background here:
1) some groups of Pakistani muslim men in Britain in a number of areas have exhibited certain identifiable paedo behaviours in common - 2) the muslim community in Britain has a problem with paedo grooming 3)left/liberal politics gives a free pass to muslim paedos by deflecting the accusation from being put to them - 4) the EDL/BNP etc gain credibility through the failure to acknowledge the muslim paedo problem.

1 doesn't justify 2, 3 or 4 which equate British muslims with paedo threat.


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## audiotech (Aug 2, 2012)

'This is Religion'.


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## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2012)

cantsin said:


> simplistic to see change in Islamic self - identification in pre/post Rushdie terms, or even pre-post Iran 79', it's part of a a global geo political shift centred around the post war US / Oil / Israel situation, but agree 100 % how that shift in self identification has played into the non classist/'dented shield' labour politics of the 80's/early 90's and beyond, and has lead to over sensitivity any criticism of Islam etc . But all that said, doesnt then mean that the reporting of / reaction to the recent 'grooming ' cases has been accurate / fair minded .


 
Impossible to cover the wider global issue in a post .Read the Malik book for a fuller analysis


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## The39thStep (Aug 2, 2012)

articul8 said:


> There's a dodgy semantic chain lurking in the background here:
> 1) some groups of Pakistani muslim men in Britain in a number of areas have exhibited certain identifiable paedo behaviours in common - 2) the muslim community in Britain has a problem with paedo grooming 3)left/liberal politics gives a free pass to muslim paedos by deflecting the accusation from being put to them - 4) the EDL/BNP etc gain credibility through the failure to acknowledge the muslim paedo problem.
> 
> 1 doesn't justify 2, 3 or 4 which equate British muslims with paedo threat.


Actually 3 is one of the reasons why 1 isn't the perceived narrative.Without wanting to go through the arguments again on the grooming rings my view is that it is a peer related crime , as was mugging in the 70s, and each peer group will find a way of sanctioning and rationalising its behaviour.There will be therefore specific 'cultural' relationships to each case when they come before the courts or wider public analysis.

The principle in your point three ie the liberal left giving a free pass could easily be expanded into  the lack of appetite by the liberal left in dealing with both drug dealing and mugging issues where race enters the equation. The IWCA faced accusations of racism when it worked with a local community to drive muggers out in that area.

A couple of years ago I was at a domestic violence conference and when the issue of domestic violence against women from the Indian subcontinent there was a general frown  of lets not go there by the mainly white and middle class public sector audience.

Some of this is simply the fact that many of the public sector organisation set up to deal with crime and safeguarding issues have no links with any of the communities that they serve and therefore view things through a prism of theory rather than practise.There is often a sense of mistrust and fear that communities cannot be trusted to come up with solutions about how to deal with people behaviour because they might go against the perceiver wisdom and value base of professionals.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 2, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> The principle in your point three ie the liberal left giving a free pass could easily be expanded into the lack of appetite by the liberal left in dealing with both drug dealing and mugging issues where race enters the equation. The IWCA faced accusations of racism when it worked with a local community to drive muggers out in that area.
> 
> quote]


 
One of the amusing observations around the allegations of racism around the mugging question was that at the public meetings in the Newtown area, hundreds strong, all sections of the community were represented. The chair was an extremely large white man with scar down one side of his face, while his co-chair was an extremely large black man with a scar down the other side!
This is not to say there weren't tensions, and at time did threaten to spill over, neverthelss the campaign took off and proved hugely succesful. The attack from the Left, none of whom were at the meetings, nonetheless denounced the campaign as 'racist' working on the assumption that the only ones interested in solving a mugging problem would be exclusively - white. The implications being immediately obvious to everyone bar them.


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## articul8 (Aug 2, 2012)

I'm not sure what parallel is being drawn here.  You presumably didn't kick off the campaigning by saying "the black community has a mugging problem"?


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 2, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I'm not sure what parallel is being drawn here. You presumably didn't kick off the campaigning by saying "the black community has a mugging problem"?


 
Your not very bright are you?


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## articul8 (Aug 2, 2012)

I can spell "you're"


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## malatesta32 (Aug 2, 2012)

race mixing,granny porn,sexual swinging,date rape drugs,grown men attacking children,teachers making sick comments on line to school children,theft of members money,not paying small firms for work done,putting small firms out of business,not paying bnp staff and trying to blackmail prominent members of the bnp.​brilliant, great summation. from stormfront no less!


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 2, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I can spell "you're"


 
Yeah fair play. 10 out of 10 on the grammar. You ask where are the parallels between the discussion on grooming and the events in Newtown. What the issue of grooming, domestic violence within minority communities, (illustrated by 39th step) and the mugging epidemic in Newton have in common is of course the response of the liberal Left.
Essentially they turn a blind eye to the problem, and immediately cast aspersions on the people that confront them head on - either in theory or practise. Other areas considered verboten are forced marriages, female genital mutiliation and of course honour killings. So while these discussions are ostensibly about issues within the Muslim community, they are also about hypocrisy and contradictions and inadequacies within the Left, in either interacting with minority communities in a honest way or in dealing with the far-right with any degree of tactical acumen.

Another parallel is more personal. In a rather bizarre fashion you make the identical blunder as the critics of the IWCA in 1997 in alluding to the mugging issue being primarily, overwhelmingly, or exclusively 'a black problem'. In reality it was a Newtown problem. With perps and victims crossing the colour divide. Which is why the iWCA was able to tackle it head on in the way it did.
Obviously that must have been prior to the IWCA's turn to 'lumpen-Strasserism'. Or who knows maybe not?

Anyway top marks on the grammar - as for the rest - nil points.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

I know UAF went into denial about the reality of grooming, but I'm not sure that can be said of the left in general - there's a difference between tacking the problem, and indicting a whole community on the basis of a problem that is perceived to be specific to it (I didn't say mugging was a black issue by the way, I was suggesting this is how NOT to take up an issue).  The problem is that the far right seize on this kind of issue to "confront them head on", 'them' being muslims in general rather than the problem.  In this context, it is reasonable to acknowledge a problem but situate it as part the wider phenomenon of abusive/predatory sexual behaviour.

I don't see any of the issues you raise as verboten.  But they shouldn't be taken together as though they are evidence that muslim communities are somehow especially prone to breeding violent or abusive behaviours.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

Give it up articul8


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

another devastatingly incisive contribution - did the school fees buy that?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> another devastatingly incisive contribution - did the school fees buy that?


At your age you should be able to play more than one record.


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## butchersapron (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I know UAF went into denial about the reality of grooming, but I'm not sure that can be said of the left in general - there's a difference between tacking the problem, and indicting a whole community on the basis of a problem that is perceived to be specific to it (I didn't say mugging was a black issue by the way, I was suggesting this is how NOT to take up an issue). The problem is that the far right seize on this kind of issue to "confront them head on", 'them' being muslims in general rather than the problem. In this context, it is reasonable to acknowledge a problem but situate it as part the wider phenomenon of abusive/predatory sexual behaviour.
> 
> I don't see any of the issues you raise as verboten. But they shouldn't be taken together as though they are evidence that muslim communities are somehow especially prone to breeding violent or abusive behaviours.


So, in brief, it's important not to generalise or tar communities with the same brush, to view things as class/community issues - a brilliant example was given of how to do this was offered and your response to this specific example is to say that you shouldn't generalise or tar communities with the same brush as this gives the far right opportunities. What are we to think you're saying about the example given?

And please, that last para - stop with the banalities.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

as i said, articul8, give it up. you wouldn't know a class analysis if it leapt up and tweaked your nipple.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> So, in brief, it's important not to generalise or tar communities with the same brush, to view things as class/community issues - a brilliant example was given of how to do this was offered and your response to this specific example is to say that you shouldn't generalise or tar communities with the same brush as this gives the far right opportunities. What are we to think you're saying about the example given?
> 
> And please, that last para - stop with the banalities.


 
I'm asking whether Joe et al are bending the stick too far in overcompensating for an error they rightly identify.  Yes we should talk about and deal with real problems with a class analysis.  But not to the extent of inadvertently reinforcing a picture of one minority group as violent, abusive and particularly threatening.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> as i said, articul8, give it up. you wouldn't know a class analysis if it leapt up and tweaked your nipple.


go back to saying naughty words about the police


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## butchersapron (Aug 3, 2012)

Show where and how they are doing this please.

(And without mentioning strasserism - esp the crude understanding of what this entails that was thrown onto the thread earlier. Or basically only saying that it's good to do the right thing and bad to do the wrong thing).


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I know UAF went into denial about the reality of grooming, but I'm not sure that can be said of the left in general - there's a difference between tacking the problem, and indicting a whole community on the basis of a problem that is perceived to be specific to it (I didn't say mugging was a black issue by the way, I was suggesting this is how NOT to take up an issue).


^ this sentence is a fucking mess. can't you do better than that? some sort of elaboration of your 'i'm not sure that can be said of the left in general - why not? - would be useful if your post is to be more than fucking shit blather.





> The problem is that the far right seize on this kind of issue to "confront them head on", 'them' being muslims in general rather than the problem.


no, the problem is that THIS SORT OF THING HAPPENS IN THE FIRST PLACE. why don't you see that, and not what the far right make of it, as 'the problem'? 





> In this context, it is reasonable to acknowledge a problem but situate it as part the wider phenomenon of abusive/predatory sexual behaviour.


so, according to you, the problem is a) the far right seize on this kind of thing to have a pop at muslims and b) that the far-right seizing upon this is part of a wider problem of predatory sexual behaviour. you're all over the fucking shop you thick twat.



> I don't see any of the issues you raise as verboten. But they shouldn't be taken together as though they are evidence that muslim communities are somehow especially prone to breeding violent or abusive behaviours.


blah blah blah


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> go back to saying naughty words about the police


you're not even fit to lick the boots of the police.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

I didn't mention strasserism or say that's where IWCA were coming from.

Joe:


> Essentially they turn a blind eye to the problem, and immediately cast aspersions on the people that confront them head on - either in theory or practise. Other areas considered verboten are forced marriages, female genital mutiliation and of course honour killings.


 
I'm not sure where exactly these issues are considered "verboten" to the left - there is a certain sort of liberal social worker types who feel a bit squeamish about this, and some SWP/Respect types might reflect this.  But isn't tarring the whole of the left with this brush not a massive generalisation.

Also, there is a pretty obvious danger in saying - let's make a special effort to talk in isolation about issues in which muslims appear violent, coercive, sexually predatory, repressive, murderous etc - and "confront them head on".  EDL might well say, "yes let's confront the bastards, take on the islamic threat", rather than let's address these issues of concern to communities? 

I'm NOT saying these issues need to be buried until there is a less islamaphobic climate.  But there are an awful lot of issues which are of concern to muslim and maj white communities (from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries etc) - only after serious work to build cross-community solidarity can you realistically take up the more thorny issues without it appearing to be an external (and possibly racist) attack from without.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I'm NOT saying these issues need to be buried until there is a less islamaphobic climate. But there are an awful lot of issues which are of concern to muslim and maj white communities (from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries etc) - only after serious work to build cross-community solidarity can you realistically take up the more thorny issues without it appearing to be an external (and possibly racist) attack from without.


so what you're saying is that YOU couldn't tackle the more emotive issues until so much time has passed that the edge on the memory may be blunted.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> so, according to you, the problem is a) the far right seize on this kind of thing to have a pop at muslims and b) that the far-right seizing upon this is part of a wider problem of predatory sexual behaviour. you're all over the fucking shop you thick twat.
> blah blah blah


 the far right can seize on this kind of thing ONLY when it is taken in isolation.  When it is contextualised and addressed in ways that cross ethnic lines then this undercuts their ability to do it.

This is really very simple.  As are you.


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## butchersapron (Aug 3, 2012)

I didn't say that you did, I pointed out that another hysterical poster trying to make similar points to you did, and that it was neither helpful nor accurate. So would appreciate you not following his example. And yes, I think you have done that by your response to the newton example and by who are directing these points at. You may not want to openly state it but the target is pretty clear. I will respond to the rest when not typing on phone.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> so what you're saying is that YOU couldn't tackle the more emotive issues until so much time has passed that the edge on the memory may be blunted.


I'm saying they need to be and can be addressed but only in the context of a much wider attempt to build class solidarity across inter-ethnic lines.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I'm saying they need to be and can be addressed but only in the context of a much wider attempt to build class solidarity across inter-ethnic lines.


so by cross-community you in fact mean class solidarity.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> the far right can seize on this kind of thing ONLY when it is taken in isolation. When it is contextualised and addressed in ways that cross ethnic lines then this undercuts their ability to do it.


and how would you contextualise and address it in a way which undermines their ability to do it?


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 3, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> Quite right in part articul8, noone suggests that there aren't specific criminal gangs , who are Muslim in cultural background, who have engaged in criminal "grooming" of girls (and some boys) for prostitution purposes.


 
As usual you have got things back to front. What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community, they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board _existing_ business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities.  It isn't in other words criminal activity that creates the network; it is not necessary to create a _specific_ paedophile network, as might be found online say, any old common or garden network seems to do. In short it is the ability to easily access a network that creates the basis for the criminal activity, and makes it worthwhile.

And even though sexual abuse was rife in the Catholic Church, and was air-brushed by the authorities, it tended, (even though there were lots of them) to be down to predators working as individuals - lone wolves. Again the difference with the muslim grooming is that for the latter, there is evidence of group activity.

Which all points to a greater degree of tolerance/turning a blind eye to such activity within the Muslim community.
Which probably isn't that surprising considering the low regard in which Muslim women are held. And the even lower regard for women outside of the faith.


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## articul8 (Aug 3, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> and how would you contextualise and address it in a way which undermines their ability to do it?


 
By establishing a track record of working on the broader range of issues - from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries - which concern both muslims and other ethnic groups, and where class solidarity is required to defend and promote common interests.  It's not enough to have a rhetorical commitment to such work, or a record of doing a little bit on another issue somewhere else a few years ago.  It has to be done alongside, and ideally before, taking up issues of particular sensitivity to a minority ethnic community.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> As usual you have got things back to front. What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community, they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board _existing_ business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities. It isn't in other words criminal activity that creates the network; it is not necessary to create a _specific_ paedophile network, as might be found online say, any old common or garden network seems to do. In short it is the ability to easily access a network that creates the basis for the criminal activity, and makes it worthwhile.


 
This sounds like nonsense to me.  How are Muslim paedophiles unable to exploit existing business and family contacts to further their paedophile in ways in which the "white community" are unable to.  What is special about Muslim businesses that makes them more liable to infiltration by paedophile gangs?


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 3, 2012)

serious question btw.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 3, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> This sounds like nonsense to me. How are Muslim paedophiles unable to exploit existing business and family contacts to further their paedophile in ways in which the "white community" are unable to. What is special about Muslim businesses that makes them more liable to infiltration by paedophile gangs?


 
That they don't have to be _infiltrated_ by specially concieved gangs is the whole point.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> That they don't have to be _infiltrated_ by specially concieved gangs is the whole point.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 3, 2012)

articul8 said:


> By establishing a track record of working on the broader range of issues - from housing to drugs, anti-social behaviour to libraries - which concern both muslims and other ethnic groups, and where class solidarity is required to defend and promote common interests. It's not enough to have a rhetorical commitment to such work, or a record of doing a little bit on another issue somewhere else a few years ago. It has to be done alongside, and ideally before, taking up issues of particular sensitivity to a minority ethnic community.


and what of its peculiar senstitivity to, er, the majority ethnic community? seems to me you won't have much sway within either community if you steer clear of the tricky issues till it suits you.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> That they don't have to be _infiltrated_ by specially concieved gangs is the whole point.


 

No, i don't understand that either, are you saying that paedophilia naturally grows in Muslim communities in a way in which it doesn't in other communities?


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## bignose1 (Aug 3, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I didn't say that you did, I pointed out that another hysterical poster trying to make similar points to you did, and that it was neither helpful nor accurate. So would appreciate you not following his example. And yes, I think you have done that by your response to the newton example and by who are directing these points at. You may not want to openly state it but the target is pretty clear. I will respond to the rest when not typing on phone.


Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 3, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> No, i don't understand that either, are you saying that paedophilia naturally grows in Muslim communities in a way in which it doesn't in other communities?


 
No I'm not, and there's never been any evidence that I know of, that it does. The thing is as far as I can discern is that the actual ages of the females targetted are not the issue. It is in fact that the BNP who have labelled it paedophilia for the obvious return for them of a sort of double hit, though 'Muslim, suicide-bombing paedo's' would for them hit all the right places propaganda wise. But paedophilia to give it it's proper definition is a pathological attraction to pre-teens. Which is in the main  not the priority for these groomers. For them the core criteria is that they a) have access to them and b) they are malleable.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 3, 2012)

_Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!_

Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.

Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward and Woody Allen, make room on that pantheon.


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## audiotech (Aug 3, 2012)

Self-Deprecating humour was my first thought.


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## bignose1 (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> _Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!_
> 
> Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.
> 
> Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward and Woody Allen, make room on that pantheon.


Oh Gary do me a favour dearie........


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## bignose1 (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> _Hysterical poster??Fuck off you twat cunt arsehole knob who the fuck are you pissflap face youre all wankers so go and fuckkkkkkkkkkkk offfff!!_
> 
> Gore Vidal made be dead, but the art of the pithy put-down is alive and kicking. A star is born.
> 
> Dorothy Parker, Oscar Wilde, Mark Twain, George Bernard Shaw, Noel Coward,Woody Allen and Sean Birchall make room on that pantheon.


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## Delroy Booth (Aug 3, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> What identifies the Muslim grooming gangs as different is that unlike in the white community....


 
The white community?



Joe Reilly said:


> ....they are able to exploit entirely legal and otherwise above board _existing_ business (taxi firms, fast-food outlets) and family contacts to create a client base, which is then extended to other areas, and other cities.


 
A few years ago in Huddersfield there was a case similar to the Rochdale one, where predominantly muslim men had been involved in a peadophile ring. It was centred around a taxi firm, who would befriend and then groom young girls, often vulnerable and damaged, into being ferried around and dropped of to perform sexual favours. The "client base" of nonces using this service came from all sections of the community though, I think they were predominantly white, although Huddersfield's a predominantly white town so I wouldn't read anything into that.

In that instance those men being taxi-drivers, and the opportunity that brings to set up some ring like this, played a way more important then their religious idenity. That was marginal, but it was a factor. It's a pretty tight community, making it more difficult for police and social services to be able to shut it down, and I suppose that comes from being a religious minority in a profession where racist assaults are routine and even murders take place.

I think there's a similarity to Rochdale, speaking to people from there about the recent grooming case, and I'm lucky that I've got some asian friends from Rochdale who've got a decent insight into it, in their words these guys were more likely to be found in the pub than the mosque on a friday night, none of them were actively religious. It isn't seen as socially acceptable in the muslim community to do this. They preyed on predominantly white girls, firstly out of sheer opportunism, because they're the people you're most likely to come into contact with if you're a taxi driver doing 1am-5am in a grim nothern town, and partly because targeting muslim kids would risk word getting around that community that this was going on, and risking the whole operation getting exposed. It wasn't based on some religious conviction or a cultural belief, shared by the whole community, that it's ok to abuse non-muslim women, but their own self-preservation.

Now, this is where some of the left groups you've criticised go into denial, and refuse to acknowlege religion and cultural issues played any role at all in this, but I still don't see how it leads to conclusion the whole muslim community was deliberately turning a blind eye, and passively condoning these crimes.



Joe Reilly said:


> And even though sexual abuse was rife in the Catholic Church, and was air-brushed by the authorities, it tended, (even though there were lots of them) to be down to predators working as individuals - lone wolves. Again the difference with the muslim grooming is that for the latter, there is evidence of group activity.


 
I don't think that's true at all, I've never bought this "lone wolves" shit about Catholic priests. Peadophilia was too systematic, too institutionally tolerated and lasted too long despite full knowledge it was going on, to be blithely written off as spate of lone wolves. They were in a position were they could abuse young people, just as a taxi driver who works 1am-5am in a provincial northern town might be, and so it was exploited. And I still wouldn't draw for that some of the conclusion you're prepared to make about Muslims.



Joe Reilly said:


> Which all points to a greater degree of tolerance/turning a blind eye to such activity within the Muslim community.
> Which probably isn't that surprising considering the low regard in which Muslim women are held. And the even lower regard for women outside of the faith.


 
I think you're on shaky ground here personally, trying ascribes to the motives of a small group of peadophiles to an entire religion. And I don't dispute for a moment that women are often held in low regard by some muslims either, or share the denial and naivety that some left-wingers have in talking about this.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Aug 3, 2012)

EDIT: fuckup


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## Delroy Booth (Aug 3, 2012)

EDIT: sorry triple post


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 4, 2012)

That's ok it was a good post, maybe not worth reading 3 times in such quick succesion but still...


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 4, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> .
> 
> 
> I don't think that's true at all, I've never bought this "lone wolves" shit about Catholic priests. Peadophilia was too systematic, too institutionally tolerated and lasted too long despite full knowledge it was going on, to be blithely written off as spate of lone wolves. They were in a position were they could abuse young people, just as a taxi driver who works 1am-5am in a provincial northern town might be, and so it was exploited. And I still wouldn't draw for that some of the conclusion you're prepared to make about Muslims.


 
First who is 'blithely writing anything off'? And where is the evidence of _group_ attacks/collaboration by priests? All the evidence from case studies, witness affidavits, charges and convictions _world wide_, shows a pattern of behaviour that is entirely in the lone wolf category and thus different. Were the victims prostituted - sold to other churches for example? Oddly you seem to think that 'lone wolf' is in a less serious category.
Also, you seem to be confused with regard to the distinctions between taxi-drivers and priests. The latter have (or had) both power (of the church) and opportunity. Do Huddersfield taxi-drivers regularly ferry children around at 5 am? And if they do, what extraordinary power over them do they have? Or fast-food outlets for that matter? You also seem to suggest that anyone with the opportunity would naturally 'exploit' it in the same way?  Really? Well, the conviction rate for this type of grooming under discussion says different.


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## Delroy Booth (Aug 4, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Do Huddersfield taxi-drivers regularly ferry children around at 5 am? And if they do, what extraordinary power over them do they have?


 
Quick point, the "extraordinary power" comes from a process of grooming, slowly winning trust of vulnerable young people as a prelude to this type of exploitation. The rest follows after this grooming takes place.



Joe Reilly said:


> Oddly you seem to think that 'lone wolf' is in a less serious category.


 
Nope, I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. And I still don't accept that peadophilia in the catholic church was simply unconnected individuals. But that's a different topic and not one I want to talk about.



Joe Reilly said:


> You also seem to suggest that anyone with the opportunity would naturally 'exploit' it in the same way?


 
No, I suggest that _paedophiles_ would exploit the opportunity to abuse kids if they present themselves, not just anyone. What a strange assumption to make, like abusing kids is just default activity that anyone would love to do if they ever got the chance. Weird.

Please try and keep your replies to things I've actually said in future, rather than things you've imagined I've said.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 4, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Please try and keep your replies to things I've actually said in future, rather than things you've imagined I've said.


 
Actually, what I was struggling with was the things _you_ imagined _I_ said, and then with the things _you_ imagined _you_ said.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 5, 2012)

stromfront classic!
Yesterday was a most remarkable day!!! It was a very relaxed affair as we sat in the warm afternoon sunshine enjoying our drinks, from there we went to a friends house to enjoy the hostesses *excellent English curry buffet* whilst enjoying each other's company well into the evening - beats proper meetings any day​


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## malatesta32 (Aug 5, 2012)

VNN perspicacity for once! 

When the EDL first appeared Gri££in 'proscribed' them. He saw them as a threat to his income stream. As the BNP fell to bits Gri££in then tried to appeal to the EDL for more mugs he could fleece for donations. Didn't work. Now the the EDL and their new party, the BFP (who I think are a pile of shit), have publicly declared they want nothing to do with Gri££in so he goes on the attack. The Gri££in Family Business is losing members to the NF, BFP, and ED's hand over foot and this is Gri££ins last gasp at trying to prove he's a 'real nationalist'. He isn't. Gri££in is just another state protected con-man. What sort of cnut goes around yelling "BRITISH JOBS FOR BRITISH WORKERS" and then shafts Romac printers forcing them into liquidation and then getting the owner of said business jailed?


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## Gingerman (Aug 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> stromfront classic!
> Yesterday was a most remarkable day!!! It was a very relaxed affair as we sat in the warm afternoon sunshine enjoying our drinks, from there we went to a friends house to enjoy the hostesses *excellent English curry buffet* whilst enjoying each other's company well into the evening - beats proper meetings any day​


Lets hope the sight of Mo Farrah winning an Olympic gold medal for the UK made them choke on  their 'excellent English curry buffet'


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## malatesta32 (Aug 5, 2012)

the power of the naan is strong! even for devoted neo-nobheads!


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## bignose1 (Aug 5, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the power of the naan is strong! even for devoted neo-nobheads!


A bunch of nenanndethals.......heard their was some Kormabat 18 out with them!!


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## Nigel (Aug 5, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Yeah fair play. 10 out of 10 on the grammar. You ask where are the parallels between the discussion on grooming and the events in Newtown. What the issue of grooming, domestic violence within minority communities, (illustrated by 39th step) and the mugging epidemic in Newton have in common is of course the response of the liberal Left.
> Essentially they turn a blind eye to the problem, and immediately cast aspersions on the people that confront them head on - either in theory or practise. Other areas considered verboten are forced marriages, female genital mutiliation and of course honour killings. So while these discussions are ostensibly about issues within the Muslim community, they are also about hypocrisy and contradictions and inadequacies within the Left, in either interacting with minority communities in a honest way or in dealing with the far-right with any degree of tactical acumen.
> 
> Another parallel is more personal. In a rather bizarre fashion you make the identical blunder as the critics of the IWCA in 1997 in alluding to the mugging issue being primarily, overwhelmingly, or exclusively 'a black problem'. In reality it was a Newtown problem. With perps and victims crossing the colour divide. Which is why the iWCA was able to tackle it head on in the way it did.
> ...


Without wanting to seem too critical or argumentative many of the misogynistic characteristics you describe concerning southern asain Muslim communities is just as high if not more inherent in other communities of a similar ilk. Hindu caste system, propoerty relations in Panjab in relation to arranged marriages. As far as FGM is concerned it has more to do with tribal practices that crosses religous lines, Nigeria for example. Increase in grooming & prostitution and involvement is probably organised by Eastern Europeans as any other ethnic group & indigenous criminal groups have proved themselves to be just as insidious when it comes to child prostition.
Although I agree that openness and criticisim in this area and groups and individuals doing genuine not to the detriment or divisiveness of community as a whole,
to not realise that this is part of a campaign of Islamaphobia brought on by geo political interests just plays into the hands of racists.


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## ayatollah (Aug 5, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> The white community?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
This an important post Delroy Booth. You have IMO  identified the very nasty subtext in so many of "Joe's" postings over years on the issue of "grooming " by gangs who are Muslims. He is systematically  associating the crimes of a few criminals with some wider  "cultural sickness" in the entire Muslim community. On the other hand he is completely unwilling to recognise that the Catholic Priesthood has long contained within its ranks a huge paedophile network of co-operating/mutually protecting, abusers .

There is no "cultural rights" defence against crimes against women like genital mutilation, forced marriage, domestic violence, or any other offence. There are however perfectly adequate laws which need to be enforced to deal with these crimes. There is a huge problem of domestic violence, child abuse, within the family,( and via paedophile rings), in the wider "white" community too of course, and the police fail dismally to tackle these broader societal  problems too. Separating out just one  ethnic/religious minority already under almost daily attack by bigots across the UK,  for special attention for their supposed "special prediliction" to engage in crimes like "grooming", is not only selective nonsense, but simply panders to the obsessions of the natural support base of the BNP. How on earth does it deal with these problems in any useful way ?

Similarly to suggest that a group of local white bigots in a community campaigning against the right of their nearby fellow citizens to lawfully acquire a building as a religious centre, opens up any "radicalising potential" for "progressives", rather than fascists, is truly astonishing. It might open up opportunities for solidarity action in the local Muslim community for Left activists however, But that doesn't seem to be Joe or his friends' target group for political action. Yet not all Muslims are small business owners... many are simply workers, with the same relationship to capital as any white worker.

The Left should definitely reject any idea of "cultural specialness" that protects criminals from prosecution for breaking the law. The apparent long term "hands off" attitude of the police to the recently revealed  "forced labour" practices in some Traveller Communities, being another possible example, But just as these problems don't justify demonising the entire Traveller community, so there is no excuse for falling in behind the BNP ,( possibly to appeal to their  white bigot voter support base ?) in demonising the Muslim community.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 5, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> The Left should definitely reject any idea of "cultural specialness" that protects criminals from prosecution for breaking the law.


i don't believe 'cultural specialness' is any sort of legal defence. could you show me a) a definition of 'cultural specialness' and b) someone who thinks it is a legal defence?


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## ayatollah (Aug 6, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't believe 'cultural specialness' is any sort of legal defence. could you show me a) a definition of 'cultural specialness' and b) someone who thinks it is a legal defence?


 
For goodness sakes, Pickman's model,get a grip man... read my post a bit more carefully.....The "middle class"  Left has been constantly accused by the IWCA of "turning a blind eye" to "sins" by the Muslim community because of , the IWCA contends, a mistaken view that "multiculturalism" provides a " get off behaving badly" card to minority cultural groups. The IWCA is not entirely alone in this view. The BNP obviously say it loudly, and there was a recent  article in the Guardian, on the back of the recent "honour killing case" by a black Leftie again saying that too often the broad Left had turned a blind eye to  "culture-based crimes" in minority communities. I agree with you that in fact NOONE with any sense on the Left actually thinks that  the law should stand aside from dealing with crimes against women like genital mutilation and forced marriage, and I can find no evidence that this has ever been a significant position on the Left ... it is a Straw Man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 6, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> For goodness sakes, Pickman's model,get a grip man... read my post a bit more carefully.....The "middle class" Left has been constantly accused by the IWCA of "turning a blind eye" to "sins" by the Muslim community because of , the IWCA contends, a mistaken view that "multiculturalism" provides a " get off behaving badly" card to minority cultural groups. The IWCA is not entirely alone in this view. The BNP obviously say it loudly, and there was a recent article in the Guardian, on the back of the recent "honour killing case" by a black Leftie again saying that too often the broad Left had turned a blind eye to "culture-based crimes" in minority communities. I agree with you that in fact NOONE with any sense on the Left actually thinks that the law should stand aside from dealing with crimes against women like genital mutilation and forced marriage, and I can find no evidence that this has ever been a significant position on the Left ... it is a Straw Man.


i thought you were above that sort of thing. obviously i was wrong.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Aug 7, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> This an important post Delroy Booth. You have IMO identified the very nasty subtext in so many of "Joe's" postings over years on the issue of "grooming " by gangs who are Muslims. He is systematically associating the crimes of a few criminals with some wider "cultural sickness" in the entire Muslim community.


 
Ironically, this is exactly how the Catholic Church sounded when initially defending itself against 'excessive intrusion' and the supposed 'anti-Catholic' motivations of the whistle-blowers  before the full scale of the scandal began to emerge.  I guess you don't call yourself the Ayatollah for nothing.


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 7, 2012)

ayatollah said:


> I agree with you that in fact NOONE with any sense on the Left actually thinks that the law should stand aside from dealing with crimes against women like genital mutilation and forced marriage, and I can find no evidence that this has ever been a significant position on the Left ... it is a Straw Man.


 
The UAF argued that taking a stance on grooming etc was 'playing into the hands of the BNP', Anne Cryer was condemned as 'insensitive' for drawing attention to forced marriages, Jack Straw was accused of 'demeaning a whole religion' when commenting on the grooming issue, while an anti-pimping group in Leeds was accussed of being a 'front for the BNP'. 

While not too long back it was yourself on this forum that insisted the grooming issue was all 'got up by the tabloids'. 

Even the police admitted they were fully cognisant of the political nature of the inquiry and dragged their feet for years. How many more victims since 2004?

Of course no liberal ever formally says the 'law should stand aside', they are far too weasely to do that. But they definitely don't want to hear about it. Would far prefer it was kept behind closed doors, brushed under the carpet and try to cow into submission anyone who suggests different.

In short, the instinct (Iincluding yours) to smear anyone who dares to even broach the issue cannot be so easily dismissed as unrepresentative can it? 

And if that is what it is like for contributors on Urban, imagine the pressure within the Muslim community to stay silent, be quiescent and conform?


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## malatesta32 (Aug 23, 2012)

the death of the bnp apparently.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100177567/the-strange-death-of-bnp-england/


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the death of the bnp apparently.
> http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/edwest/100177567/the-strange-death-of-bnp-england/


 
Interesting to note that the two mentions of the Griffin expose of the EDL in the mainstream press have both been used to attack the BNP. 'The death of the BNP' etc when the more appropriate conclusion and headline should surely have been:'The strange death of the EDL'.


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## LLETSA (Aug 23, 2012)

An article that would apparently bear Griffin out with its soft treatment of the EDL in an establishment, pro-Israel paper.

Some bizarre claims also: "Unlike the NF or BNP, it is almost exclusively working-class, one of the reasons that leads Griffin to suspect there are shadowy forces behind it." This seems to be the exact opposite of what Griffin is saying.


----------



## krink (Aug 23, 2012)

At least they still agree with the EDL when it comes to sarnies. BNP plan on demonstrating outside Subway sarnie shop in Sunderland on Saturday for the second time in a month. It's because it sells islamic sarnies or something. Stupid twats.


*just noticed the alliteration in that post, makes me sound like a daily star sub editor


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## Joe Reilly (Aug 23, 2012)

LLETSA said:


> An article that would apparently bear Griffin out with its soft treatment of the EDL in an establishment, pro-Israel paper.
> 
> Some bizarre claims also: "Unlike the NF or BNP, it is almost exclusively working-class, one of the reasons that leads Griffin to suspect there are shadowy forces behind it." This seems to be the exact opposite of what Griffin is saying.


 
As Griffin has painstakingly identified exactly who are the main players and through email extracts extablished beyond plausibility the precise relationships between them there is no '_suspect_' in it. Either the people in question don't exist; don't know each other, or have opposite politics to those attributed to them - or - Griffin has established a prima facie case. Any other conclusion just adds to the sense of something being even more seriously untoward. With regard to the expose of Hope not Hate the same standard should be applied.


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## malatesta32 (Aug 24, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> Interesting to note that the two mentions of the Griffin expose of the EDL in the mainstream press have both been used to attack the BNP. 'The death of the BNP' etc when the more appropriate conclusion and headline should surely have been:'The strange death of the EDL'.


maybe its a mutual suicide pact?


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## malatesta32 (Aug 24, 2012)

anyone know about this guy? 
http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/2397/bloody-nasty-people-the-rise-of-britains-far-right


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> anyone know about this guy?
> http://www.hopenothate.org.uk/news/article/2397/bloody-nasty-people-the-rise-of-britains-far-right


 
He's an assistant editor at the New Statesman


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## malatesta32 (Aug 24, 2012)

ah, thanks! terrible title tho!


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 24, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> ah, thanks! terrible title tho!


 
I preffered Classwar's acrostic

Bigots
Nonces
Perverts


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## malatesta32 (Aug 24, 2012)

ha ha just reading bones bash the rich (on the toilet actually) and the acrostic is well in keeping with CW tone!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 25, 2012)




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## goldenecitrone (Aug 25, 2012)

butchersapron said:


>


 
Tsk. Mocking the afflicted.


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## bignose1 (Aug 25, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Tsk. Mocking the afflicted.


Bridge-ish National Party


----------



## audiotech (Aug 28, 2012)




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## bignose1 (Aug 28, 2012)

audiotech said:


>


*NO PASSA-VAN*


----------



## bignose1 (Aug 28, 2012)

''A bit of damage to the right wing as well officer''


truth truck more like roof fucked


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2012)

Wonder if they got ticketed for parking on double yellows?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2012)

Looks like the saddest little caravan in Christendom


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## bignose1 (Aug 28, 2012)

When your weary
Feeling small
When Jeffersons doing your nut
And youve heard it all

Im on your side
When times get rough
And friends just cant be found
Like a bridge that was just a little smaller
Than thought Clive the clown
Like a bridge that couldve been with being taller
Just as his pants turned brown

When your down and out
When your on the street
When you hear the roof cave in
I can hear you shout
(What the fuck!!)

You are a bunch of jokers
There til darkness comes
And embarrasment is all around
Like a bridge blocked by fools to the slaughter
Just let the tyres down
Like a bridge just an inch or too shorter
What Id give for it now

Drive on Silly boys
Drive on by
You gave us laughs galore
And your on your way

So next time you see a bridge
Tell Rodney no!!
Cos youll lose your no claims
And that'd be a blow
Like a bridge that you couldnt get under
I will ease your mind
Like a bridge that caused a top class blunder
Clive your one of a kind.

(c)simon and what the fuckle


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## Fozzie Bear (Aug 28, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> He's an assistant editor at the New Statesman


 
He is a friend of a friend - we talked about the book about a year ago. One of those "oh this guy also knows a bit about fascism!" introductions that are a bit excruciating. He struck me as more sound than you would expect someone who worked at New Statesman to be.

He emailed me this morning and offered to send a copy of the book, which was nice of him. I'm sure I'll disagree with some of it, but he's put the hours in so it should be worth reading... I'll try and put some thoughts on here when it turns up.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 7, 2012)

Walker pleaded guilty to dangerous driving in July and has been given a 6 month prison sentence suspended for 18 months.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

*Daniel Trilling - Blood Nasty People: The Rise of Britain's Far Right (Verso).*

It's quite good for a book published by Verso which is 234 pages long (inc 23 pages of index/references).

I'm sure there will be some disagreement about the conclusions drawn and some of the other aspects but it seems to do a good job of tracing the development of the BNP's transformation from "march and grow" to what we have today. It's a good "beginners guide".

Part One of the book basically covers Enoch Powell and the formation of the NF etc up to Beackon's election as a BNP Councillor on the Isle of Dogs in 1993.

The influence of militant fascism on the turn to electoralism is briefly mentioned as a key factor (along with Beackon's success and the FN in France). AFA/IWCA/"Filling The Vacuum" aren't explicitly mentioned, but "Beating The Fascists" is referenced.

Part two covers 1993 up to the 2010 election, with a bit on the EDL tacked onto the end. So we get the Oldham riots, the election of Griffin and Brons to Europe, Dagenham, Question Time, various internal splits, being forced to change the constitution to admit non-white members, the political and media landscape in terms of Islam, immigration, etc.

The conclusion consists of "ten myths about Britain's far right" which he rebuffs.

It's readable and covers most of the ground well. Trilling has interviewed a bunch of people - mainly Griffin and Eddy Butler from the BNP - as well as people on the ground (various bods running community centres, trade unionists, locals) and some politicians and other dignitaries (Blunkett, Hain, Hodge...).

Trilling seems quite keen on Hope Not Hate's campaigning around the 2010 election. Paradoxically he also notes that is counter-productive to call the BNP Nazis.

He also seems to think that the BNP of Nick Griffin is now a spent force (whilst recognising that the issues that lead to its success haven't gone away and are likely to intensify).

As with Owen Jones' "Chavs", the book seems to be aimed at a Guardian reading / left Labour audience. There is a lot of discussion of how the political establishment played into the BNP's hands by ignoring working class needs. There isn't anything on the need for an alternative to the establishment. Owen Jones is overtly romantic about the Labour Party of yesteryear, but Trilling simply identifies how New Labour etc have screwed up. Perhaps this is fair enough as it's a book about the far right, not anti-fascism.

I'll look forward to seeing what other people have to say...

[as I said above, the author is a friend of a friend. I have met him a couple of times over beers and briefly discussed his progress with writing it. Apparently this has merited a thank you at the end and a free copy, which is nice - but it's not like I've had any actual input into it.]


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## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Any chance of listing the ten myths fozzie? (No rush and no worries if not)


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Any chance of listing the ten myths fozzie? (No rush and no worries if not)


 
Well, since you asked...

*The conclusion consists of "ten myths about Britain's far right" which he rebuffs.*
1. The threat has passed
2. The rise of the BNP was a consequence of 'too much' immigration
3. Racism only played a minor role in driving BNP support
4. White people in Britain are discriminated against because of their skin colour
5. 'Tough talk' keeps the far right at bay
6. Anti-racism has been imposed on the white-working class by a politically-correct elite
7. The growth of the BNP and the emergence of the EDL indicate the failure of multiculturalism.
8. The BNP was Labour's problem alone
9. The BNP wasn't fascist
10. 'It couldn't happen here'


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well, since you asked...
> 
> 1. The threat has passed
> 2. The rise of the BNP was a consequence of 'too much' immigration
> ...


Lovely, cheers - that should give us some room to have a proper talk then. We could do them 1 by 1.


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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


>


arch enemies?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

no underpasseran?


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## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

'The threat has passed.' 
2. The rise of the BNP was a consequence of 'too much' immigration'

1/ well, the threat of the BNP has passed. it is unlikely griffclops will get MEP post back and to be honest i dont think he wants it. he has lost 1,000s of supporters, lost dozens of councillors, played it as canny as he could (nothing in his name ie debts) and apart from a few nostalgic fash, the far right hate him (see mr tommy calling uncle nick an F'ing C***!). in fact its the 1 thing the far right are united on. the conditions that created that support havent changed much. the EDL may have capitalised on it all but played it badly. they could have aligned with anyone but the clowns in the british fluffy party. the EDL capitalised on the immigration issue and the 'victimhood' of many white working class voters disenfranchised by labour etc and feeling 'minorities' were getting better deals. (that sounds just like the NF in the 70s).


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

'Tough talk' keeps the far right at bay

yes, lets get up to walsall and walthamstow and talk toughly to mr tommy!


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## love detective (Sep 10, 2012)

7 is total bollocks surely (bollocks that it's a myth that is)

given that political multiculturalism gifted the BNP the space, legitimacy, rhetoric, real & perceived grievances etc.. to operate how they did, and to do so within multiculturalism own terms and logic, how could this possibly be seen as anything but a failure for the top down political multiculturalism that we've seen in the UK over the last couple of decades


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


>


 
Illustrates how the politically-correct liberal elite who control Europe are oppressing our honest British patriots - clearly the Imperial-minded driver saw 12' 6" and figured he had space to drive through...

But 3.8m is only 12' 5 39⁄64"


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 10, 2012)

love detective said:


> 7 is total bollocks surely (bollocks that it's a myth that is)
> 
> given that political multiculturalism gifted the BNP the space, legitimacy, rhetoric, real & perceived grievances etc.. to operate how they did, and to do so within multiculturalism own terms and logic, how could this possibly be seen as anything but a failure for the top down political multiculturalism that we've seen in the UK over the last couple of decades


 

Depends on how you read it, and depends on how he is erading it and how has it failed. I would agree with his point that it failed. However, that's on the basis that Multiculturalism as practised has indeed been a failure not that we need 'more'.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

He is saying that's it's a _myth_ that multiculturalism failed.

I'm relucant to keep commenting much because I'll end up typing the whole book out, but I will say that he reckons that the picture of Britain painted by the right wing with ethnic ghettos and "no-go areas" for whites / non-muslims is an exageration and quotes some figures which suggest that there is also a fair bit of integration going on.

The book does mention "the muddled discourse" about race in the media, and the BNP's shift to "identity politics" but I think it should have been stronger on the increasing racialisation of culture/politics in some quarters.


----------



## love detective (Sep 10, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Depends on how you read it, and depends on how he is erading it and how has it failed. *I would agree with his point that it failed.* However, that's on the basis that Multiculturalism as practised has indeed been a failure not that we need 'more'.


 
his point is that it hasn't failed though, or if it has, it's failure in no way connected to the opening up of the legitimised space that the BNP quite skillfully filled - which is nonsense

segregation, identity politics, suspicion of the other, communitarian politics, reactionary ideas of fixed identity etc - all things that the BNP have played into have all stemmed from (or have been legimtised by) multiculturalism _as practiced_

so no idea how he can claim that it's a myth that the growth of the BNP and the failures of multiculturalism are not connected - the former was facilitated to a large extent by the later - it obviously wasn't sufficient in and off itself but it played a necessary part in the overall growth


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Let's do this one by one
1. The threat has passed:

Was there a threat? What was it? Why has it passed? What threat?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

as above
well, the threat of the BNP has passed. it is unlikely griffclops will get MEP post back and to be honest i dont think he wants it. he has lost 1,000s of supporters, lost dozens of councillors, played it as canny as he could (nothing in his name ie debts) and apart from a few nostalgic fash, the far right hate him (see mr tommy calling uncle nick an F'ing C***!). in fact its the 1 thing the far right are united on. the conditions that created that support havent changed much. the EDL may have capitalised on it all but played it badly. they could have aligned with anyone but the clowns in the british fluffy party. the EDL capitalised on the immigration issue and the 'victimhood' of many white working class voters disenfranchised by labour etc and feeling 'minorities' were getting better deals. (that sounds just like the NF in the 70s).​


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

That's just waffle. Have another go.


----------



## Fedayn (Sep 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> He is saying that's it's a _myth_ that multiculturalism failed.
> 
> I'm relucant to keep commenting much because I'll end up typing the whole book out, but I will say that he reckons that the picture of Britain painted by the right wing with ethnic ghettos and "no-go areas" for whites / non-muslims is an exageration and quotes some figures which suggest that there is also a fair bit of integration going on.
> 
> The book does mention "the muddled discourse" about race in the media, and the BNP's shift to "identity politics" but I think it should have been stronger on the increasing racialisation of culture/politics in some quarters.


 


love detective said:


> his point is that it hasn't failed though, or if it has, it's failure in no way connected to the opening up of the legitimised space that the BNP quite skillfully filled - which is nonsense
> 
> segregation, identity politics, suspicion of the other, communitarian politics, reactionary ideas of fixed identity etc - all things that the BNP have played into have all stemmed from (or have been legimtised by) multiculturalism as practiced
> 
> so no idea how he can claim that it's a myth that the growth of the BNP and the failures of multiculturalism are not connected - the former was facilitated to a large extent by the later - it obviously wasn't sufficient in and off itself but it played a necessary part in the overall growth


 
Aaaah right, my misreading, i'd certainly agree with ld's points and it's what I was getting at but looking at his view wrongly....
It is a bizarre reading of events that can lead anyone to think what we need to counter the BNP is more institutionalised/copperfastened social/cultural/demographic and logically and consequentially political dividing of communities along racial/ethnic/religious lines.... Beggars belief frankly....


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

It hasn't failed enough.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Let's do this one by one
> 1. The threat has passed:
> 
> Was there a threat? What was it? Why has it passed? What threat?


 
I think this bit is aimed at self-congratulatory people who thought it was "job done" after the 2010 elections.

So, in those terms, the threat is an electorally successful BNP.

Personally I think they still have excellent "brand recognition" and hundreds of thousands of people who have previously voted for them. There are worse places to be (the failures of the BNP are far more impressive than the successes of the far left).

Of course the _actual_ threat is the general climate of political discussion/priorities.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think this bit is aimed at self-congratulatory people who thought it was "job done" after the 2010 elections.
> 
> So, in those terms, the threat is an electorally successful BNP.
> 
> ...


 
Brand recog is a good way to look at it. NF still make money off it.

Going back to the posts, what is/was the threat?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Brand recog is a good way to look at it. NF still make money off it.
> 
> Going back to the posts, what is/was the threat?


 
Are you asking what I think, or what it says in the book? 

He doesn't make it explicit (there are a few paras for most of the 10 "myths").


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Are you asking what I think, or what it says in the book?
> 
> He doesn't make it explicit (there are a few paras for most of the 10 "myths").


What it says in the book.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 10, 2012)

I think you should buy the book rather than making Fozzie type it all out para by para


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 10, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think you should buy the book rather than making Fozzie type it all out para by para


Punish fozzie.That said, it's verso, give me a sec


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

Broadly:

_Nick Griffin's_ project to modernise the BNP is over. ("they never shook off their associations with neo-nazism and violence, and thanks in part to one of the largest anti-fascist mobilisations this country has ever seen, its support did not spread very far beyond a hard core of voters").

Yes they got thumped at the 2010 elections, but their vote went up and Brons and Griffin are still MEPs. "Small but apparently solid base of support".

Success of the English Democrats (Mayor of Doncaster 2009). EDL/British Freedom Party.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 10, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I think you should buy the book rather than making Fozzie type it all out para by para


 
I bet you a fiver he's typing all these questions _whilst sitting in a flippin' bookshop_.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

butchers, i'll paraphrase it as you cant be bothered to read through it properly. ​​BNP - no threat. far right split for now. things still shit but EDL failed to capitalise on something the BNP had made political capital out of - WWC victimhood. ​


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Brand recog is a good way to look at it. NF still make money off it.
> 
> Going back to the posts, what is/was the threat?


 
NF make money? what a tenner a year membership?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 10, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Well, since you asked...
> 
> *The conclusion consists of "ten myths about Britain's far right" which he rebuffs.*
> 1. The threat has passed
> ...


Cheers for the review Fozzie.

Couple of Qs, if you can be bothered.
From 7 and the discussion above, am I right in thinking that he doesn't see state promoted multiculturalism as one of the reasons for the BNP's rise?
At 9 he's arguing that the BNP _are_ a fascist party? Based on what, Griffins Holocaust denial and similar?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Sep 11, 2012)

redsquirrel said:


> Cheers for the review Fozzie.
> 
> Couple of Qs, if you can be bothered.
> From 7 and the discussion above, am I right in thinking that he doesn't see state promoted multiculturalism as one of the reasons for the BNP's rise?
> At 9 he's arguing that the BNP _are_ a fascist party? Based on what, Griffins Holocaust denial and similar?


 
I've not got the book with me today...

IIrc he reckons that the core of the party is fascist still. (He refers to Robet Paxton's definition of fascism in the intro) 

"State promoted multiculturalism" isn't specifically mentioned and seems less important than

a) media commentary about asylum seekers/Islam/scroungers. (and how this influences mainstream politics)
b) New Labour "triangulation" (focussing on middle class / middle england at the expense of the w/c).

Trevor Phillips' quote about "sleep walking to segregation" is mentioned as is the peculiarity of the BBC's "white season" treating the white w/c like a separate species.

He states that the creation of ethnic ghettos in a northern town (Burnley? Oldham?) was as the result of there being cheap rents there (because the area was near the industrial zone/mills etc) and that despite this there are still a large percentage of white people living there. I was under the impression that local authority housing policy was responsible for this situation in some areas.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 11, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Broadly:
> 
> _Nick Griffin's_ project to modernise the BNP is over... its support did not spread very far beyond a hard core of voters")


 
First of, it wasn't Nick Griffin's project. The switch to euro-nationalism happened years before he became leader. Secondly, how is this 'hard core' quantified when up to and including the GE election in 2010 the BNP vote continued on an upward spiral: 7000 votes in 1992 GE to 560,000 in 2010.

Or in the Euros from 100,000 in 1999, to a ten fold increase a decade later?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 11, 2012)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I've not got the book with me today...
> 
> IIrc he reckons that the core of the party is fascist still. (He refers to Robet Paxton's definition of fascism in the intro)
> 
> ...


Cheers for the reply.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Sep 11, 2012)

The truth truck's fitting under that bridge though - There's only about an inch clearance, but the roof isn't being shaved off so it is having it.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 11, 2012)

Frances Lengel said:


> The truth truck's fitting under that bridge though - There's only about an inch clearance, but the roof isn't being shaved off so it is having it.


Thanks to some local young rapscallions who thoughtfully repatriated some immigrant air from the tyres.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

political ambulance chaser?
http://www.facebook.com/OfficialNickGriffin/posts/10151166465303987


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 12, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Brand recog is a good way to look at it. NF still make money off it.
> 
> Going back to the posts, what is/was the threat?


 
re: brands. from hope not hate: 
We are also seeing more violent racist incidents from people who identify with the EDL, even if they have had no real contact with them. The EDL has become a ‘brand’ in its own right and it produces an imagery and temperament similar to the racist and violent image of the 1970s National Front.


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 13, 2012)

The "ten myths" (or at least edited version of them) have been printed in the Guardian, if anyone is interested.



> The BNP wasn't a fascist organisation.
> As the BNP's own Language and Concepts Discipline manual advised, Griffin wished his party to be perceived as a "rightwing populist party" that espoused "right-of-centre views traditional to ordinary working people who are not leftists'. In fact, throughout its existence, the BNP has remained profoundly fascist, dedicated to a "revolution" that would make Britain an ethnically "pure" society. The BNP had its roots in the most extreme sections of Britain's far right. Griffin developed his own personal ideology from a concoction of "leftwing" nazism, racist mysticism and ideas borrowed from the French Front National about how to pursue cultural hegemony in order to win political power.
> 
> After taking over the BNP, he attempted to fashion a respectable public image behind which these ideas could be hidden. Yet even as the BNP tried to distance itself in public from violence, it still attracted supporters who harboured fantasies about armed conflict. In 2006, former BNP member Robert Cottage was jailed for stockpiling explosive chemicals at his Lancashire home. Another ex-member, Terence Gavan, was jailed in 2010 for hoarding guns and homemade bombs in his bedroom. A rise in reported hate crime followed the election of BNP councillors in the West Midlands, London and Essex. What's more, while the BNP attracted a layer of working-class support, it kept some roots in the middle classes, the traditional bedrock of fascism. Griffin was the privately educated son of a businessman; party members included company directors, computing entrepreneurs, bankers and estate agents. The genesis of the EDL indicates similar foundations. It has enjoyed the perception, reflected across the national media, of being a spontaneous expression of working-class anger. The origin of this group, which was conceived in a £500,000 apartment and shaped by a group of anti-Muslim ideologues including a director of a City investment fund and a property developer, suggest a more complex picture. The EDL has displayed increasingly fascist-like behaviour, targeting not only Muslims but leftwing movements too.


Not a very convincing argument IMO.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 15, 2012)

things is looking up for the Burnley BNP and the NF then!
labour 493
lib 256
con 96
bnp 95
ukip 35
nf 26


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 15, 2012)

interview about the new fash book
http://www.live-magazine.co.uk/2012/09/bloody-nasty-people-interview-with-daniel-trilling/


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2012)

> Having been reporting on the far right since 2009, Trilling has...


 
Looks like a shit review of a shit book


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 15, 2012)

love detective said:


> Looks like a shit review of a shit book


 
Indeed. Interesting too, when the likes of Trilling, Owen Jones and Nigel Copsey decide that they are now sufficiently expert to write books on the state of the working class, fascism or anti-fascism they seem to busy themselves consulting everyone bar the very people with first hand knowledge the matters under focus -the people who might actually know what they're talking about. Challenged, Copsey was reduced to lying about it, while Jones, as the Yanks might put it, 'took the 5th'.


----------



## where to (Sep 15, 2012)

redsquirrel said:


> Not a very convincing argument IMO.


 
aye, some of his 'myths' were really badly argued against.  one of them was basically, i met a guy who was involved in workplace antiracism, therefore none of the subsequent government legislation was top-down.

he also argues that the BNP were forced to admit non-white members because 'times have changed' - he totally lost me with that one.

some good points in there too, but nothing new.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 15, 2012)

where to said:


> he also argues that the BNP were forced to admit non-white members because 'times have changed' - he totally lost me with that one.


 
Funny how this was applauded as a major coup in liberal circles at the time, and yet in the years since, has there been a single non-white applicant who took the plunge? The answer is probably no. Understandably. Afterall, part of the interview process would likely require a home visit at the very least. With all the implications that would follow such disclosures. Something that seemingly never crossed the dillettante cheerleaders at the time. But then again, despite all the propaganda to the contrary, race-mixing only really happens among the lower-orders so it was never something they, being 'hideously white' might ever have to consider on a personal level. The presumption from the outset being that 'other people would do that'.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Sep 15, 2012)

Can someone enlighten me on this. Is it true that when John Tyndall wrote the BNP constitution, the phrasing used for their definition of who was allowed to be a member, I think it might've been something like "Anglo-Celtic folk community" was directly translatied from the Nazi party constitution, the words folk community being a translation of "Volkreich". And is it true that other parts of the BNP's constitution deliberately used the Nazi party as a template in this way? I have made some efforts in the past to look this up, but never come to a conclusive answer.

Also, surely the period of John Tyndall's leadership, and the early BNP's open nazism, is a better example to point to for proof that the BNP is a fascist party than the things Daniel Trilling was saying in that top 10?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 16, 2012)

joe, despite the cosmetic change there has been very little diffference in BNP support. however, the change did pissed a lot of members off and they left claiming that the BNP was soft and also multicultural (and probably run by the jooos too!).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 16, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> Can someone enlighten me on this. Is it true that when John Tyndall wrote the BNP constitution, the phrasing used for their definition of who was allowed to be a member, I think it might've been something like "Anglo-Celtic folk community" was directly translatied from the Nazi party constitution, the words folk community being a translation of "Volkreich". And is it true that other parts of the BNP's constitution deliberately used the Nazi party as a template in this way? I have made some efforts in the past to look this up, but never come to a conclusive answer.


 
_Reich_ is empire or, more loosely, kingdom. Folk community is _VolksGemeinschaft_, so if Tyndall did use the constitution of the NSDAP he got it fundamentally wrong, as the NSDAP constitution refers specifically to the Aryan _volk_, and then defines Aryan.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Sep 16, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> _Reich_ is empire or, more loosely, kingdom. Folk community is _VolksGemeinschaft_, so if Tyndall did use the constitution of the NSDAP he got it fundamentally wrong, as the NSDAP constitution refers specifically to the Aryan _volk_, and then defines Aryan.


 
Cheers, I had a feeling Volkreich wasn't the right word.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Sep 16, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> joe, despite the cosmetic change there has been very little diffference in BNP support...


You sort of imply that there has been _some_ 'difference in BNP support': what does this amount to in practice?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 17, 2012)

'there has been very little diffference in BNP support'

apologies, i meant that the turnover of voters/members is what changes rather than the character. i dont think they have moved away from their 'traditional' support - and any 'middle class' support would appear to have been hoovered up by the tweedy UKIP.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 19, 2012)

Who is Trilling anyway?  What's his background?   I wonder how books like this get commissioned - did he just send a manuscript to verso and say "it's like chavs 2 - the revenge"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Who is Trilling anyway? What's his background? I wonder how books like this get commissioned - did he just send a manuscript to verso and say "it's like chavs 2 - the revenge"?


why don't you google him instead of showing yourself clewless?


----------



## articul8 (Sep 19, 2012)

ah OK, I did heat that, assistant editor of New Statesman.  Not a good sign


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 19, 2012)

articul8 I can no longer tell if you're serious or just trying to get a reaction from butchersapron


----------



## love detective (Sep 19, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Who is Trilling anyway? What's his background? I wonder how books like this get commissioned - did he just send a manuscript to verso and say "it's like chavs 2 - the revenge"?


 
as the review says, he's been reporting on the far right since as far back as 2009, so it seems only fair that he gets a book out of it after all these years committed to it

and given the lead time from initial idea to getting it on the shelfs can be a good year or two, he must have pretty much started writing it not long after he started reporting on the far right back in 2009 - yet book deal and publicity in the bag & sorted no problem


----------



## articul8 (Sep 19, 2012)

spotted a gap in the market - if only someone had written a book covering anti-fascism in the UK since the 70s


----------



## krink (Sep 21, 2012)

a good book about the 70s anti-fascists in that london:



the greek print version (so i'm told)



By the way if anyone is interested in the bnp/nf/edl/infidels' rotating demos in sunderland, if that mild irritation wasn't bad enough they've only inspired the local leninist to set up a uaf style group and at his launch meeting he's got weyman fucking bennett speaking...which i'll have to attend to see what's what...which is so unfair weyman fucking bennett.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

krink said:


> a good book about the 70s anti-fascists in that london:
> 
> View attachment 23273
> 
> ...


yeh, that is the greek version.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 21, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> articul8 I can no longer tell if you're serious or just trying to get a reaction from butchersapron


i don't think he's ever been serious since he admitted being a member of the labour party. but he'll never again reach the heights of hilarity he achieved when he announced his membership.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 21, 2012)

krink said:


> a good book about the 70s anti-fascists in that london:
> 
> View attachment 23273
> 
> ...


 
lux's book is very entertaining! however i have always doubted the wisdom of 'Mick' wearing his name on the back of his shirt on an anti-fash demo though. like the EDL flags that tell plod EXACTLY  where they have come from and where they are going after their carpark occupations.


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 26, 2012)

griffin actually makes sense (in amongst the usual bollocks!)
http://www.edlnews.co.uk/index.php/latest-news


----------



## articul8 (Sep 26, 2012)

krink said:


> he's got weyman fucking bennett speaking...which i'll have to attend to see what's what...which is so unfair weyman fucking bennett.


I often I have to see Mr. Bennett as I need to walk through the UAF office to get to mine.  I might be a bit paranoid here but they seem jumpy every time I walk in.  Perhaps they have a white prole detector that alerts them?


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 26, 2012)

articul8 said:


> I often I have to see Mr. Bennett as I need to walk through the UAF office to get to mine. I might be a bit paranoid here but they seem jumpy every time I walk in. Perhaps they have a white prole detector that alerts them?


 Can you not go another way man.....


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 26, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> lux's book is very entertaining! however i have always doubted the wisdom of 'Mick' wearing his name on the back of his shirt on an anti-fash demo though. like the EDL flags that tell plod EXACTLY where they have come from and where they are going after their carpark occupations.


 He was wearing a Men in Calvin Klein denim jacket


----------



## articul8 (Sep 26, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Can you not go another way man.....


 
Nope - one entrance and there's no way of avoiding them as they are right outside the door


----------



## bignose1 (Sep 26, 2012)

articul8 said:


> Nope - one entrance and there's no way of avoiding them as they are right outside the door


 Wayman...Weyman...no..no...!!?


----------



## malatesta32 (Sep 26, 2012)

hey bigman, there's a punfest on the simon & garfunkel thread calling your name!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2012)

so brons has left the bnp

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/16/bnp-andrew-brons-resigns-mep


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 16, 2012)

> Observers of the British far right predict Brons is set to launch a new party in competition with the BNP.


 
More division. Jolly good.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2012)

it's strange how searchlight hit the shops yesterday but their vaunted intelligence network within the far right didn't give them an inkling this was going to happen.

it's a pity that brons didn't pass this snippet onto his auld mate ray hill


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2012)

Ray Hill speaking at the Cambridge Union in 2009.

Have a listen Pickman's, to Ray talking about his windows being put through every week and a calor gas bottle placed outside his home, when the fascists attempted to "slaughter" Ray and his family, including his young son, in order to silence him. He does mention Brons btw.

A very powerful speech and every credit to Ray Hill for that.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 16, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Ray Hill speaking at the Cambridge Union in 2009.
> 
> Have a listen Pickman's, to Ray talking about his windows being put through every week and a calor gas bottle placed outside his home, when the fascists attempted to "slaughter" Ray and his family, including his young son, in order to silence him. He does mention Brons btw.
> 
> A very powerful speech and every credit to Ray Hill for that.


I already heard hill speak in manchester 18 or 19 years ago


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's strange how searchlight hit the shops yesterday but their vaunted intelligence network within the far right didn't give them an inkling this was going to happen.l


 
You must not have read last months _Searchlight_ Pickman's, because in that issue it is mentioned that a "Bradford based would-be alternative to the BNP", the Democratic Nationalists (DN), is "supported" by yes, you've guessed it, one Andrew Brons.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 16, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> I already heard hill speak in manchester 18 or 19 years ago


 
Yes, but the one posted is from 2009 and a lot has changed since 18/19 years ago, that is reflected in Hill's talk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> You must not have read last months _Searchlight_ Pickman's, because in that issue it is mentioned that a "Bradford based would-be alternative to the BNP", the Democratic Nationalists (DN), is "supported" by yes, you've guessed it, one Andrew Brons.


Ab supports x does not equal ab resigns from y


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2012)

I suspect 90% of the much vaunted intelligence network is now with HnH


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:
			
		

> You must not have read last months Searchlight Pickman's, because in that issue it is mentioned that a "Bradford based would-be alternative to the BNP", the Democratic Nationalists (DN), is "supported" by yes, you've guessed it, one Andrew Brons.



Why ever would searchlight say such a thing?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Thinking that Brons was about to jump ship?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2012)

It's not like searchlight to try and provoke internal turmoil by spreading rumours at all is it?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

The internal turmoil has been apparent for all to see for sometime now. Griffin et al are well aware of the MO of _Searchlight. _Did Brons jump, or was he pushed?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I suspect 90% of the much vaunted intelligence network is now with HnH


 
Bit of a spat with this one, as it appears HnH's intelligence is mainly trawling facebook and other social media, exposing openly fascists and racists, who are err fascists and racists.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> The internal turmoil has been apparent for all to see for sometime now. Griffin et al are well aware of the MO of _Searchlight. _Did Brons jump, or was he pushed?


Why does it matter if griffin is well aware of the MO of searchlight? What difference does that make to the way that searchlight operate and how _you _evaluate their claims?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Thinking that Brons was about to jump ship?


if you take a step forwards one month and bother reading this month's searchlight, you'll note that (in the article about fash watering holes) they state they want to stir things up. given that there has been much ink spilled over brons' relationship with the bnp over the last 18 months, him leaving has been on the cards for some time.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

I suspect _Searchlight's_ MO keeps Griffin on his guard at all times. _Searchlight_ would need to adapt to keep a step ahead and as for me evaluating their claims? I can, like others, only speculate as to what is going on.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

searchlight have adapted by stopping carrying news in briefs. the magazine's bloody awful nowadays.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> if you take a step forwards one month and bother reading this month's searchlight, you'll note that (in the article about fash watering holes) they state they want to stir things up. given that there has been much ink spilled over brons' relationship with the bnp over the last 18 months, him leaving has been on the cards for some time.


 
I have read this months _Searchlight _and I'm well aware that Brons position in the BNP has been under some pressure for some considerable time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> I have read this months _Searchlight _and I'm well aware that Brons position in the BNP has been under some pressure for some considerable time.


you are now.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> searchlight have adapted by stopping carrying news in briefs. the magazine's bloody awful nowadays.


 
It's been severely affected by the split.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> It's been severely affected by the split.


it hasn't been much good for years.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> you are now.


 
I was aware sometime ago. I understood it was only a matter of time before he went. I was surprised when Brons surfaced to stand as an MEP, as he'd gone under the radar here in Yorkshire.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 17, 2012)

What now for Searchlight?


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it hasn't been much good for years.


 
Debatable. There was an interesting report from a stormy meeting in Leeds not long back, with Collett wobbling like a jelly.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> What now for Searchlight?


 
Yes, this is the most pertinent question for _Searchlight_ now.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 17, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Debatable. There was an interesting report from a stormy meeting in Leeds not long back, with Collett wobbling like a jelly.


 
Obviously before he was expelled two years ago .I thought he was around the English Democrats now.


----------



## bignose1 (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> it's strange how searchlight hit the shops yesterday but their vaunted intelligence network within the far right didn't give them an inkling this was going to happen.
> 
> it's a pity that brons didn't pass this snippet onto his auld mate ray hill


Thats shows a lack of understanding re the intelligence game pickers....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Thats shows a lack of understanding re the intelligence game pickers....


only if you take everything i write at face value. it's only a cheap shot at searchlight, but then searchlight are famous for only sharing their information on their terms. clearly the october edition would never have said 'brons will defect in a few days'.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> Obviously before he was expelled two years ago .I thought he was around the English Democrats now.


 
I thought he'd prioritised making a stash of money.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 17, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> ...it's only a cheap shot at searchlight,....



Well I never.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> More division. Jolly good.


 
theyve been on at him to do something for ages. first he was going to lead a 'parallel party' rather than leave the bnp, then various cranks urged him to create a splinter group, and now he has been expelled. he has been at this for years - just been researching the harrogate campaign - and he has had it. he looks like a chuffin' old carthorse. but less sexy.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

from some fuckbugle on Brit Democracy forum
'He said as much at the John Tyndall Memorial meeting on Saturday. When asked what he plans to do if/when Griffin goes under. Brons said he will be 70 soon and has no wish to carry on in active politics after he steps down from the European Parliament in 2014. He wants to spend more time with his family and on other nonpolitical interests.'


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2012)

There is no national figure to head a re-alignment. No one.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

oh, and jefferson was hoofed out too. some are asking richard edmonds to front it but he is nearly 90. they truly are diminishing. bring back sid williamson! only he can save us now!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 17, 2012)

The academic types view. (last para very important)


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

HnH say they are organising the British Democratic Party
i am sure it will do just as well as the ED, fluffies, FD, DNP, BPP ...


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

"the EDL ... have radicalised somewhere in the region of 1,000-3,000 young, working class men into the orbit of far right and counter-Jihad politics. "
really? but with no leadership?


----------



## 1%er (Oct 17, 2012)

If the extreme right had a charismatic leader who could pull together the eurosceptics, anti-immigration and the pull the drawbridge up brigade, what would be the best % of voters they could get in the UK?


----------



## Red Storm (Oct 17, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> "the EDL ... have radicalised somewhere in the region of 1,000-3,000 young, working class men into the orbit of far right and counter-Jihad politics. "
> really? but with no leadership?


 
Just because they have no political direction doesn't mean the base hasn't been radicalised. 

These 3,000 working class blokes and ladies wouldn't have had the exposure to far right politics on any scale like they have had with the EDL.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 17, 2012)

'ladies?' you sure storm? anyway, i dont think they have become that much more radicalised, i think they have found an outlet. racist/anti 'paki' sentiment is hardly a recent development it has just been rejigged into 'anti-islamism' and 'islam is not a race.' in relation to the above posts, they are still leaderless and they have been direly affected by splits and factionalism tho i am far from optimistic.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 17, 2012)

Check out their anti grooming pamphlet (PDF)!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Check out their anti grooming pamphlet (PDF)!


the page you requested was not found


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2012)

1%er said:


> If the extreme right had a charismatic leader who could pull together the eurosceptics, anti-immigration and the pull the drawbridge up brigade, what would be the best % of voters they could get in the UK?


 
If like the BNP they managed to appeal to some of those abandoned by the left I dunno 20%?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 18, 2012)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> the page you requested was not found



Ah. I think it downloads from the yBNP Facebook page.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> The academic types view. (last para very important)


 
From local experience this has some legs. The EDL have produced some political cadre with a narrative that is cruder than the 'People like us' BNP campaign but very much on the same lines.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

but still fragmented and without a 'serious leader.' EDL wasted their impetus thru ineptitude - no membership retention etc - and infighting dented their impact seriously. as well as really shit publicity. attacking NUJ members - not only scab but stupid.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 18, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> but still fragmented and without a 'serious leader.' EDL wasted their impetus thru ineptitude - no membership retention etc - and infighting dented their impact seriously. as well as really shit publicity. attacking NUJ members - not only scab but stupid.


There is a problem with just focusing on leadership _at this stage of the game_ for this lot (i mean the general edl type far right, crossover, not the BNP) - leadership is a process, it's something that _grows_ out of action, out of demonstrated ability to do something and to get others to support it. The first step towards sifting out who has leadership potential is to actually produce the numbers and the actions that will allow people to be put to the test. Which is what i think is now taking place - and what the last para of that extremis article was really talking about. Have to look at this dynamically.


----------



## 1%er (Oct 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There is a problem with just focusing on leadership _at this stage of the game_ for this lot (i mean the general edl type far right, crossover, not the BNP) - leadership is a process, it's something that _grows_ out of action, out of demonstrated ability to do something and to get others to support it. The first step towards sifting out who has leadership potential is to actually produce the numbers and the actions that will allow people to be put to the test. Which is what i think is now taking place - and what the last para of that extremis article was really talking about. Have to look at this dynamically.


Anarchy in action


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

from crazy claire khaw who overestimates her influence somewhat.

It remains to be seen how adventurous and innovative Brons will be. His main problem was always too little, too late. I doubt if he and his associates did form a party they would have me in it. That is why I don't think they will get anywhere.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/...s-gay-couples-address-incites-homophobic-mob/

Is Nick in trouble here?


----------



## Firky (Oct 18, 2012)

Badgers said:


> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/...s-gay-couples-address-incites-homophobic-mob/
> 
> Is Nick in trouble here?


 
I reckon this is going to backfire spectacularly, their bookings will go through the roof (or up the garden hill) due to all the publicity they're going to get.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2012)

Badgers said:


> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/...s-gay-couples-address-incites-homophobic-mob/
> 
> Is Nick in trouble here?


 
Martin Webster might have something more to add to that.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 18, 2012)

I'm not sure about that tbh. I don't buy the all publicity is good publicity stuff, this is exactly the sort of thing stops the BNP from ever getting anywhere, the vanity and craven stupidity of Nick Griffin. He's so shit he takes the fun out of being anti-fascist.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 18, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> There is a problem with just focusing on leadership _at this stage of the game_ for this lot (i mean the general edl type far right, crossover, not the BNP) - leadership is a process, it's something that _grows_ out of action, out of demonstrated ability to do something and to get others to support it. The first step towards sifting out who has leadership potential is to actually produce the numbers and the actions that will allow people to be put to the test. Which is what i think is now taking place - and what the last para of that extremis article was really talking about. Have to look at this dynamically.


 
Yes, but that piece ignores the in-put from Geller and others, with Robinson as spokesperson, giving a clear anti-nazi message to his supporters. There's also the events in Blackburn, his recent verbals against Griffin and the BNP to consider. I don't see anyone within the breakaway groups from the EDL displaying any leadership potential. In fact they're seen as a laughing stock. This is the pond Griffin is fishing in and I don't see him reeling in any cadre of note. It seems to be the NF who are gaining recruits from this pool and they're going nowhere.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Oct 18, 2012)

Badgers said:


> http://politicalscrapbook.net/2012/...s-gay-couples-address-incites-homophobic-mob/
> 
> Is Nick in trouble here?


potential criminal offence surely? Incitement to violence?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> potential criminal offence surely? Incitement to violence?



How does this compare to recent people jailed for 'abuse' on social media?


----------



## elbows (Oct 18, 2012)

The police are investigating.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/18/bnp-nick-griffin-address-gay-couple


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

elbows said:
			
		

> The police are investigating.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/oct/18/bnp-nick-griffin-address-gay-couple



Good news. I hope this goes somewhere after the shit he gets away with.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

audiotech said:


> There's also the events in Blackburn, his recent verbals against Griffin and the BNP to consider. I don't see anyone within the breakaway groups from the EDL displaying any leadership potential. In fact they're seen as a laughing stock. This is the pond Griffin is fishing in and I don't see him reeling in any cadre of note. It seems to be the NF who are gaining recruits from this pool and they're going nowhere.


 
gotta admit this is right! blackburn was a decisive moment for an unfixable split. the breaksway groups of which there are dozens are fuck all. no leadership types at all. tony curtis? kev karol? snowy? paul james? eejits and bugles. griffin thinks there be lolly in the EDL or votes and, as the fluffy BF found out, there's neither. the EDL arent interested in anything but stella, charlie and attacking plod.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 18, 2012)

all the fash think griffclops is state - but they say that about everyone - and i dont go for it but this is another classic cock up. what is he thinking?


----------



## Badgers (Oct 18, 2012)

@nickgriffinmep twitter account suspended


----------



## elbows (Oct 18, 2012)

fashtags will never be the same again.


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 19, 2012)

Badgers said:


> @nickgriffinmep twitter account suspended


 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ZAHsXCVeiu70EWM3f5SBpSVLSCJei&expires_in=7047


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 19, 2012)




----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Yes, but that piece ignores the in-put from Geller and others, with Robinson as spokesperson, giving a clear anti-nazi message to his supporters. There's also the events in Blackburn, his recent verbals against Griffin and the BNP to consider. I don't see anyone within the breakaway groups from the EDL displaying any leadership potential. In fact they're seen as a laughing stock. This is the pond Griffin is fishing in and I don't see him reeling in any cadre of note. It seems to be the NF who are gaining recruits from this pool and they're going nowhere.


 
I suspect that the EDL's anti Nazi message has been as successful as UAFs anti nazi message. The BNP attract over a third of EDL votes ;that is the pool that Griffin is fishing in.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


>




that bloke comes over as just plain weird.


----------



## rekil (Oct 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> that bloke comes over as just plain weird.


I gave him 10 seconds. He has 23000 subscribers to his channel.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

He is he sort who if you have he misfortune to wander into he lichen at a party tries to bum a fag off you


----------



## yardbird (Oct 19, 2012)

Nick Griffin on R5 in a few minutes to defend his tweeting of gay couple's address


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I suspect that the EDL's anti Nazi message has been as successful as UAFs anti nazi message. The BNP attract over a third of EDL votes ;that is the pool that Griffin is fishing in.


 
you got a source on the vote thing steps? i havent heard that before so need to reconsider a coupla things!


----------



## Badgers (Oct 19, 2012)

Griffin on BBC London now


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> you got a source on the vote thing steps? i havent heard that before so need to reconsider a coupla things!


 
Demos -Inside the EDL:


The BNP is the most popular political party among EDL supporters
Although members of the BNP are not officially welcome at EDL
demonstrations, 34 per cent of EDL supporters vote for the BNP.


The received wisdom that the EDL is a street based movement comprised of young thugs needs to be revised
Supporters are older and more educated than many assume: 28 per
cent are over 30; 30 per cent are educated to university or college
level; and 15 per cent have a professional qualification.


They are disproportionately likely to be out of work
A significant percentage of supporters are unemployed – although
this is especially true of older supporters. Among 16–24-year-old
EDL supporters, 28 per cent are unemployed, compared with a
national average of 20 per cent for the same age group. Among 25–
64-year-olds, 28 per cent of EDL supporters are unemployed,
compared with a national average of 6 per cent.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

brilliant, thanks feller!


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

a certain mr copeland with mr and mrs tyndall.
aint seen this one before.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2012)

is that from just before Tyndall got a kicking?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

just after, and someone on ere said it wasnt AFa but actually SWP. it was in stratford. ow!


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 19, 2012)

He's back on twatter


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 19, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00zz8xd

LOL etc


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2012)

I'm sure he is lolling - gets the national publicity he was after which allows him to emphasise this traditional aspect of his parties views _and_ focuses attention away from brons.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

yeah, hes not mentioned the other MEP from BNP oddly enough. the gay thing and the fenian thing, is it just publicity cos EDL have sucked it all up?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2012)

Following his fenian remarks (which i think were pissed up rubbish rather than tactical) on twitter, i think he's decided this is an easy route to that publicity and one that allows him to attempt to give the BNP an impression of having that harder edge again - which is useful for attracting fishies from that pool at mr steps was talking off and in the wider intra-far-right competition.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 19, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> He's back on twatter


 
Yeah, saw that


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> a certain mr copeland with mr and mrs tyndall.
> aint seen this one before.


 
Its common currency on the Hnh road shows that Collins does


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

anything that is called 'the road show' be it collins, radio 1 or top gear is a massive no-no for me steps!


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Following his fenian remarks (which i think were pissed up rubbish rather than tactical) on twitter, i think he's decided this is an easy route to that publicity and one that allows him to attempt to give the BNP an impression of having that harder edge again - which is useful for attracting fishies from that pool at mr steps was talking off and in the wider intra-far-right competition.


 
well it smacks of desperate tactics. i cant imagine griffclops drunk tho oddly. i think yr spot on with the 'harder edge' as many have left cos they are perceived as too soft. theres a thread on shirtfront is the bnp the new ANL. i means, crivvens!


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> anything that is called 'the road show' be it collins, radio 1 or top gear is a massive no-no for me steps!


 
It was me that called it that.They are quite entertaining actually


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 19, 2012)

i think collins book is a cracking read. we gave it a good review on the blog. he is genuinely funny.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2012)

B0B2oo9 said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p00zz8xd


 
They asked for it? For their address to be posted on twitter?

So Nick won't mind if I protest outside his house & smash his windows cos he asked for it?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:
			
		

> They asked for it? For their address to be posted on twitter?
> 
> So Nick won't mind if I protest outside his house & smash his windows cos he asked for it?



Not that I condone what you suggest. But do you want his address?

Anyway, it's doing the rounds now so let's organise a rave?


----------



## past caring (Oct 19, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> a certain mr copeland with mr and mrs tyndall.22
> aint seen this one before.


 


malatesta32 said:


> just after, and someone on ere said it wasnt AFa but actually SWP. it was in stratford. ow!


 
Who gave him a slap? Correct - both involved also got nicked for their trouble and, if I remember right, got time as well.

Funnily enough, we were approached with the 'intelligence' of the meeting by Searchlight. Again funnily enough, considering the Stratford venue, said intelligence wasn't given to either the national AFA contacts or even to the East London branch. It came via a couple of individuals in South London who were known - how shall I put it - to have loyalties that were somewhat divided. All of which was enough to ensure we trod very carefully.

We did, however, have people in the area gathering intelligence - from which some of the first photographs of Copeland later emerged.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Not that I condone what you suggest. But do you want his address?
> 
> Anyway, it's doing the rounds now so let's organise a rave?


Fucking griffin would be running round in a state like ebeneezer good in the shamen video


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2012)

Am I ok to post it up? Or will I get my door kicked in and/or banned by the mods?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2012)

The whole world knows his address anyway


----------



## Dreich (Oct 19, 2012)

Up to the mods, but considering the source of his address was Griffin himself smugly displaying it on an envelope to some photographers, I'd assume he's put his own arse in the fire?


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 19, 2012)

Mr.Bishie said:


> The whole world knows his address anyway


 
Fair dos. I didn't know that.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2012)

FAO Phil
The Queens House
UK.


----------



## ddraig (Oct 19, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Not that I condone what you suggest. But do you want his address?
> 
> Anyway, it's doing the rounds now so let's organise a rave?


i'd like the cunt hounded out of Wales for starters, fucks sake


----------



## Ranbay (Oct 19, 2012)

ddraig said:


> i'd like the cunt hounded out of Wales for starters, fucks sake


 
yeah fucking immigrants


----------



## ddraig (Oct 19, 2012)

only the raccisst engerlisch tho init


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 19, 2012)

Just be careful of all the asbestos when you burn his barn down.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2012)

past caring said:


> Who gave him a slap? Correct - both involved also got nicked for their trouble and, if I remember right, got time as well.
> 
> Funnily enough, we were approached with the 'intelligence' of the meeting by Searchlight. Again funnily enough, considering the Stratford venue, said intelligence wasn't given to either the national AFA contacts or even to the East London branch. It came via a couple of individuals in South London who were known - how shall I put it - to have loyalties that were somewhat divided. All of which was enough to ensure we trod very carefully.
> 
> We did, however, have people in the area gathering intelligence - from which some of the first photographs of Copeland later emerged.


 
PC, what date was this about?


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 20, 2012)

Indy on BNP. 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-the-bnps-swiftly-sinking-ship-8219078.html


----------



## Kev Scott LTJ (Oct 20, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> Indy on BNP.
> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...on-the-bnps-swiftly-sinking-ship-8219078.html


 
According to the bnp site, the Grauniad is going bust and moving to an online version only..... and this is all down to a bnp campaign against them and the Observer...


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 21, 2012)

come on now, you sounds sceptical of the BNPs recent achievements.


----------



## audiotech (Oct 21, 2012)

The39thStep said:


> I suspect that the EDL's anti Nazi message has been as successful as UAFs anti nazi message. The BNP attract over a third of EDL votes ;that is the pool that Griffin is fishing in.


 
Some contradictions:





















Meanwhile, at a 'packed meeting' in Walthamstow


----------



## SlaveofSolitude (Oct 21, 2012)

If the BNP really is damaged beyond repair, and assuming that the splinter groups are incapable of doing much, where do their million or so voters go? Is this a victory for liberalism? And if it is, where is the safety valve for society's many racists?


----------



## Treacle Toes (Oct 21, 2012)

http://www.leightonbuzzardonline.co...697?utm_medium=twitter&utm_source=twitterfeed


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 22, 2012)

the voters are mainly disillusioned and will go for one of the less mental parties like ukip.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the voters are mainly disillusioned and will go for one of the less mental parties like ukip.


 Not the working class ones. Which should of course be a primary concern but it isn't of course and arguably never has been.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 22, 2012)

what?


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 22, 2012)

past caring said:


> Who gave him a slap? Correct - both involved also got nicked for their trouble and, if I remember right, got time as well.
> 
> Funnily enough, we were approached with the 'intelligence' of the meeting by Searchlight. Again funnily enough, considering the Stratford venue, said intelligence wasn't given to either the national AFA contacts or even to the East London branch. It came via a couple of individuals in South London who were known - how shall I put it - to have loyalties that were somewhat divided. All of which was enough to ensure we trod very carefully.
> 
> We did, however, have people in the area gathering intelligence - from which some of the first photographs of Copeland later emerged.


 


The AFA intelligence vid of events including Copeland we later sold to the BBC for a five figure sum. Given that Searchlight were involved behind the scenes meant that the Beeb had to pay up front - ie the cheque had to clear before delivery. The return of serve by Searchlight was to cut AFA from the credits, which had been the deal-breaker, as ITV were also in the bidding. AFA then sued the BBC over intellectual property rights. The Beeb pleaded not guilty.

The BBC were represented in court by a barrister costing some ridiculous sum as high as £1500 per hour if memory serves. 'Will the defendants stand' was how the two AFA reps on the other side of the table were used to being addressed, but the preparatory work had anticipated a slam dunk and so it proved. The BBC lost.


----------



## Joe Reilly (Oct 22, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> what?


 
The working class BNP vote will not transfer in mass to UKIP.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 22, 2012)

oh, i see.


----------



## articul8 (Oct 22, 2012)

Joe Reilly said:


> The working class BNP vote will not transfer in mass to UKIP.


UKIP would need to jettison it's Clarkson tendency and go hell-for-leather as anti-Europe and anti-cuts.  But this is not all what their golf-club set wants.


----------



## Dhimmi (Oct 23, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> the voters are mainly disillusioned and will go for one of the less mental parties like ukip.


 
Less mental? Back a while when this was a Labour maginal seat UKIP thought they could swing it and threw a lot of cash campaigning around here. Their doorstepping technique typically included delightful lines about _"Keeping the wogs out"_ something even the BNP campaign wouldn't even mention, although they did'nt do much canvassing as everyone already loathes them.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2012)

> Just in the dark @justinthelibsoc
> Just got info the BNP are planning an "anti-paedo" protest outside the BBC tomorrow.. more to follow



http://twitter.com/justinthelibsoc/status/261495826122166272

No idea how reliable this chap is.


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 25, 2012)

Horse bolted > Stable door.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 25, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> http://twitter.com/justinthelibsoc/status/261495826122166272
> 
> No idea how reliable this chap is.


 
I've followed for quite a while now, sound as a pound.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 25, 2012)

what are they gonna achieve? the disinterring then arrest of jimmy saveloy?


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

HnH say that Brons will be announcing his new party today. Treat with usual caution.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 2, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> HnH say that Brons will be announcing his new party today. Treat with usual caution.


 
It's basically the Democratic Nationalists, who've been running in local elections in west yorkshire for a while now. The most high-profile thing they've done so far is run a candidate against George Galloway in the Bradford West bye-election.

Didn't think Brons had the ambition for another crack at things at his age, and with the state the BNP is in. I suppose that EU money is better than teaching though.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

Not really about Brons though, about how the rest of the scene jump and who - if anyone - emerges with broad support for a wider regroupment. As you say, it ain't going to be Brons.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 2, 2012)

I still don't think a wider regroupment's going to happen in the near future. Infact I think all the falling out and infighting hasn't even reached it's peak yet. The EDL still has a lot more imploding to do.

I suspect that the first group to make a definitive positive move will attract members from the remaining groupsicles, and take the lead so to speak. Out of the long list of groups now in existence on the far-right, which would you say at this moment in times, stands the best chance of leading this "wider regroupment?"


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

Delroy Booth said:


> I still don't think a wider regroupment's going to happen in the near future. Infact I think all the falling out and infighting hasn't even reached it's peak yet. The EDL still has a lot more imploding to do.
> 
> I suspect that the first group to make a definitive positive move will attract members from the remaining groupsicles, and take the lead so to speak. Out of the long list of groups now in existence on the far-right, which would you say at this moment in times, stands the best chance of leading this "wider regroupment?"


I don't think there's going to be one.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 2, 2012)

If Macshane resigns his rotheram seat Brons/new party would be rubbing his hands. As would Griffin. Head to head?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 2, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> HnH say that Brons will be announcing his new party today. Treat with usual caution.


 
saw his national unity forum this morning. awful. absolutely shite. same as the all the other groupuscules. give it up.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 2, 2012)

got to agree with delroy here, the EDL are just starting to implode. griffin is retiring next year remember and he has been hanging on - with a few token attempts to court disenfranchised EDLers that failed - whilst he milks what he can out of the BNPs reluctant epididymis.


----------



## krink (Nov 3, 2012)

True Brits arise....

http://www.anti-fascists-online.com...rits-a-new-fascist-party-is-formed-in-britain


----------



## nino_savatte (Nov 3, 2012)

True Brits, is that supposed to be a play on "True Grit"? Fucking dickheads.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2012)

Puff piece from Hope not Hate followed by donate to combat them.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 4, 2012)

im expecting the usual euphoria and rapidly following depression with this one but quite a few of the ex-bnp have been stating that brons is a viable leader - he is quite avuncular despite being a vile racist with a pretty bad history! - and he has edmonds on board who although is a nutter has considerable experience and support. however ,what makes them different from all the others, ie, bnp, fluffyies, ED etc. and wheres the money coming from?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 4, 2012)

hope not hate piece gives good background on the usual suspects!
http://www.anti-fascists-online.com...rits-a-new-fascist-party-is-formed-in-britain


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 4, 2012)

krink said:


> True Brits arise....
> 
> http://www.anti-fascists-online.com...rits-a-new-fascist-party-is-formed-in-britain


 
It's Continuity MOBO you've really got to worry about


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> It's Continuity MOBO you've really got to worry about


eejits! simply eejits!


----------



## Billyboy (Nov 6, 2012)

The real problem we have is the Fascist UAF.....


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 6, 2012)

Shocking opinion. I am shocked. Proper shocked.


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 6, 2012)

Billyboy said:
			
		

> The real problem we have is the Fascist UAF.....



Why? What have the big scary UAF ever achieved?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 6, 2012)

methinks billyboy is fucking clueless.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 8, 2012)

hell hath no fury like a fascist scorned! from batty lee barnes re: BNP annual non-conference. the long haired tosspot makes sense for once! 
1. Why have we lost 3/4 of our members since 2009?
2. Why has the BNP gone from 60 plus councillors to 3 (that's non parish councillors, especially non-elected ones)?
3. Why have most of the leading activists, writers and organisers left for a variety of pastures new?
4. Why has the _Red, White & Blue_ which attracted some 1,500 people not been staged since 2009?
5. Why is there only the very occasional meeting being reported compared to five years ago when dozens attracting a hundred plus were being reported.
6. Why did HnH and the far left not even bother to mount demos against this year's BNP AGM?
7. Why did this year's AGM only attract half the attendance that Nick Griffin got when he addressed Northants BNP in 2007?


----------



## Citizen66 (Nov 8, 2012)

malatesta32 said:


> 6. Why did HnH and the far left not even bother to mount demos against this year's BNP AGM?


 
Is that a rhetorical question?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Nov 12, 2012)

I picked up a sodden BNP leaflet yesterday (there's a bye election round my way, I wasn't in my ward they wouldn't fucking dare round here).

btw the candidate "declined" to show at the main hustings event.

I can't scan it in, it's too fucked from rain. Will try and find an online incarnation but made some effort without success. 

Content wise it's interesting because it only mentions "immigrants" once. It mentions "local" lots of times. It's very much after the fashion and style of any other party leaflet. 

Keep in mind : This is the main city of the region where their only MEP hopes to keep a seat.

This speaks to me very much of a twin track approach :

Griffin is hoping to do what so few achieve - unite the far right, even if it's just for one X on one day 18 months hence. To do this he crops up like a bad smell around the sort of issues they fraternise - muslim paedophiles, terrible gay people who have the nerve to not like prejudice, occasional kind words for Cokeboy Lennon and his gaggle (amidst the sneering).

Only anti-fash notice this kind of thing very much. Most voters won't. The aim is probably to show tone things down to a minimum, the heart logo is probably part of the same thinking. 

For all those who have deserted, they still seem to have a semi clued in propaganda-meister. Paid?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 12, 2012)

Billyboy said:


> The real problem we have is the Fascist UAF.....


FUAF?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 12, 2012)

hmmm ...
http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/...m/121109/british-far-right-politics-extremism


----------



## teqniq (Jan 21, 2013)

Take action to stop the BNP getting €400,000



> In just two weeks’ time the European Parliament will be allocating money to pan-European political parties and their associated think-tanks to assist them with their work. The Alliance of European National Movements (AENM), made up of fascist and racist MEPs from the UK, France, Hungary and Bulgaria, is asking for money. Scandalously it appears that EU’s Secretary General is recommending that they get some.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2013)

the BNP conference with 'a large number of officials in attendance.' count em!


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 29, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> the BNP conference with 'a large number of officials in attendance.' count em!


A lot of them seem to be old codgers


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> A lot of them seem to be old codgers


 
they happen to be the future of british nationalism so watch out! they have zimmers!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 29, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> they happen to be the future of british nationalism so watch out! they have zimmers!


they'll be the underground nationalists soon


----------



## bignose1 (Jan 30, 2013)

I remain unzimmerthetic


----------



## ExtraRefined (Jan 30, 2013)

teqniq said:


> Take action to stop the BNP getting €400,000


 
Ideally we should stop the BNP getting EU funding by not giving any parties EU funding.


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2013)

indy story! 
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...-poor-it-should-sell-scrap-metal-8471793.html


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2013)

> watched by an academic from Nottingham University.


 
Must be Goodwin


----------



## malatesta32 (Jan 30, 2013)

BNP bring and buy sale?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Feb 22, 2013)

Been a while since I heard any BNP related stuff. But this caught my eye. BNP given £200,000 in record donation!

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...al-party-given-record-donation_n_2733268.html



> The far-right outfit was handed £200,000 in a two-part bequest from Albert Edward Stanmore, believed to be a former tube driver who was born in London.
> The second £100,000 tranche, from the final quarter of 2012, is revealed in the latest batch of party donations published by the Electoral Commission.
> BNP spokesman Simon Darby told The Huffington Post UK that the total donation was "probably" the largest in the party's history.
> He said: "Our people are very committed, they don't just do this as a hobby."
> ...


 
Quick one, Dan Hodges is a Hope Not Hate spokesman? Dan "I'm such a massive tory I work for the Telegraph" Hodges. Another very compelling reason why anyone with even vaguely radical sympathies should avoid them like the fucking plague.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Feb 22, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> Must be Goodwin


 
Soon people will be talking about "Goodwin's Law"


----------



## malatesta32 (Feb 22, 2013)

the 200k will only cover about 1/3 of their debts from what i can gather from info in the public. the money is 1 thing, their political collapse is another. griffin and derby are professional fascists.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 22, 2013)

talking of Goodwin he had a great Twitter spat with Rob Ford ( who co authored some publications with him)


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## 1%er (Mar 30, 2013)

It appears that the money came from a Mr Albert Starmore (not Stanmore), who was a train driver not a tube driver.

" Almost all the money received by the party last year came from legacies. On top of Mr Starmore’s £200,000 (paid in two installments of £100,000), a Brian Mincherton gave £35,000 in his will whilst an Edward Hart left £28,736.97. The only living donor registered was one Russell Webb, who gave the party £2,250."


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## bignose1 (Mar 31, 2013)

1%er said:


> It appears that the money came from a Mr Albert Starmore (not Stanmore), who was a train driver not a tube driver.
> 
> " Almost all the money received by the party last year came from legacies. On top of Mr Starmore’s £200,000 (paid in two installments of £100,000), a Brian Mincherton gave £35,000 in his will whilst an Edward Hart left £28,736.97. The only living donor registered was one Russell Webb, who gave the party £2,250."


 
Mincherton was an old time fash from the Tameside and at times Stockport area and as I remember an oppo of David Anthony Jones and Frank Dawber...old skool NF 60's/70's/80's. As was often the case when you got one NF'er in the family it usually meant the whole lot were connected so you'd have a generational thing. Some of those old boys who were around the NF from day one will be pushing on but you still hear the same surnames popping up. The relentless anti fascist attacks on them in the Manchester area led to many losing interest on a activist level and you only subsequently heard from them in the various letters pages whingeing on about the usual shite. Good riddance.

ps Derek Adams seems to have dissapeared since he got his massive 400k CP payoff for his shitty little pub...word is he renaged on a promise to tip up to Griffclops.


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## 1%er (Mar 31, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Mincherton was an old time fash from the Tameside and at times Stockport area and as I remember an oppo of David Anthony Jones and Frank Dawber...old skool NF 60's/70's/80's. As was often the case when you got one NF'er in the family it usually meant the whole lot were connected so you'd have a generational thing. Some of those old boys who were around the NF from day one will be pushing on but you still hear the same surnames popping up. The relentless anti fascist attacks on them in the Manchester area led to many losing interest on a activist level and you only subsequently heard from them in the various letters pages whingeing on about the usual shite. Good riddance.
> 
> ps Derek Adams seems to have dissapeared since he got his massive 400k CP payoff for his shitty little pub...word is he renaged on a promise to tip up to Griffclops.


Thanks for the background.

The BNP are a bit of a busted flush at the moment aren't they? From what I'm reading it would seem that UKIP will pick up many of the votes that went to the BNP, but many a slip between cup and lip


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## bignose1 (Mar 31, 2013)

1%er said:


> Thanks for the background.
> 
> The BNP are a bit of a busted flush at the moment aren't they? From what I'm reading it would seem that UKIP will pick up many of the votes that went to the BNP, but many a slip between cup and lip


 
Thanks...like your quote at the end....not got me head round the UKIP stuff...think parties like that tend to implode just as they seem to be breaking out into the mainstream...fmo


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## 1%er (Mar 31, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Thanks...like your quote at the end....not got me head round the UKIP stuff...think parties like that tend to implode just as they seem to be breaking out into the mainstream...fmo


UKIP seem to me to be Thatcherism without the restraints the tory wets managed to apply. 

What political options are there at elections in the UK for someone who is anti-migration and anti-immigration on economic grounds alone?


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## malatesta32 (Apr 1, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Thanks...like your quote at the end...._*not got me head round the UKIP stuff*_...think parties like that tend to implode just as they seem to be breaking out into the mainstream...fmo


 
yeah me too. not sure where to place UKIP at all and if their popularity will mean a dilution of policy.


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 1, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> yeah me too. not sure where to place UKIP at all and if their popularity will mean a dilution of policy.


 UKIP are the new radical alternative. And if they wish to retain that title there can be no dallying with 'dilution'. Indeed their current and future popularity rests on them doing precisely the opposite.


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Been a while since I heard any BNP related stuff. But this caught my eye. BNP given £200,000 in record donation!
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/201...al-party-given-record-donation_n_2733268.html
> 
> ...


 
Money down the pan...

oh, and I wonder what is said when they reach the pearly gates...


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

1%er said:


> UKIP seem to me to be Thatcherism without the restraints the tory wets managed to apply.
> 
> What political options are there at elections in the UK for someone who is anti-migration and anti-immigration on economic grounds alone?


 
Going by some of the new organisers, won't be Left Unity, I suspect they will ultimately have some open borders policy..


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## treelover (Apr 1, 2013)

Joe Reilly said:


> UKIP are the new radical alternative. And if they wish to retain that title there can be no dallying with 'dilution'. Indeed their current and future popularity rests on them doing precisely the opposite.


 
Are you saying they are BNP lite?, they have some barking policies, however, they haven't been under real scrutiny, it will be very revealing to see the contrast in media scrutiny between L/U and Ukip, if LU gets properly off the ground which seems very likely seeing the energy of its adherents


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## Casually Red (Apr 1, 2013)

their former bagman Jim Dowson managed to get himself nicked a wee while back over the union jack protests in Belfast . Some of his defence explanations are comical, particularly his claim that he wasnt leading a mob of 50 people down the street but actually trying to distance himself  from them but they just  followed him

http://www.heraldscotland.com/news/...im-dowson-appears-in-belfast-court.1362231055

since overseeing the collapse of their financial network and call centre in Belfast he seems to have joined that other BF outfit thats simply bizzare but right up his alley


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## Joe Reilly (Apr 1, 2013)

treelover said:


> Are you saying they are BNP lite?, they have some barking policies, however, they haven't been under real scrutiny, it will be very revealing to see the contrast in media scrutiny between L/U and Ukip, if LU gets properly off the ground which seems very likely seeing the energy of its adherents


 
As has been under discussion on other threads their transformation from more or less single issue protest party to genuine radical alternative is, at least in part, reliant on their courting of working class BNP voters and the latter responding. In that sense they are as much a threat to Labour as to the Tories. Even the Lib Dems have reversed liberal proposals on immigration following Eastleigh. Who or what 'nudged' UKIP to try and fill the vacuum, when there was a distinct absence of any evident ambition in that regard hitherto is the area of strategy that could probably do with a degree of media scrutiny, which is something 'LU' will never have to face.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 4, 2013)

didnt know where to post this: 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22019433


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## The39thStep (Apr 4, 2013)

Hasn't any relevance here


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## sihhi (May 6, 2013)

Poor results for the BNP - though UKIP benefit.
Leader's twitter says:
"I have served as an Election Monitor in Russia and Ukraine and have never seen or even heard allegations of blatant fraud on this scale." — Nick Griffin MEP


Can this really be true? 

If so will the allegations be put to the test?


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 28, 2014)

Thread bump - wasn't too sure where to stick this, so thought I'd bung it in here for now:  According to the CST blog (not everyone's fave reference point, I know), the BNP have started to use overtly anti-Semitic imagery once again, this time in support of the Greek Golden Dawn mob - see here for details: http://blog.thecst.org.uk/?p=4742

Is this the start of the BNP re-adopting a Tyndall/Edmonds position on Jewish people?  (Also: Griffin of course has 2 convictions for anti-Semitic writings from the 1990's).


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## malatesta32 (Jan 28, 2014)

the jewish community in this country are very integrated and maintain a very low visible presence (except outside synagogue on shabbat). most people dont know many 'Jews' so trhe antisemitic thing is pretty irrelevant. as is that ZOG shite and the international conspiracy. even BNPers admit that antisemitism is pretty useless as a policy and its better to go after the muslamics.


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## MellySingsDoom (Jan 28, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> the jewish community in this country are very integrated and maintain a very low visible presence (except outside synagogue on shabbat). most people dont know many 'Jews' so trhe antisemitic thing is pretty irrelevant. as is that ZOG shite and the international conspiracy. even BNPers admit that antisemitism is pretty useless as a policy and its better to go after the muslamics.



I'd certainly agree with all that, which makes me wonder why they've started using those specific images again right now - is it purely to support Golden Dawn, or is there summat else at play?  I'm not sure of the answer to that one myself, but it is rather...odd?  I mean, Griffclops binned anti-Semitism in favour of Islamophobia when he took over the BNP in 1999 (presumably taking a leaf out of Le Pen senior's book, there), and although I haven't kept up with BNP goings on for a good while, I presume that anti-Muslim paranoia is still high up on the BNP's agenda.   So why drag that stuff out of the woodwork again?  What's your take on it?

e2a:  Whilst I'd agree that anti-Semitism doesn't have that much currency in current "nationalist" circles in the UK, the situation w/regard to anti-Semitism in Europe is far more prevalent and worrying (see France, Greece, Hungary, Romania and Germany as immediate examples I can think of - I'm sure others here can cite more countries/examples)...


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## Citizen66 (Jan 28, 2014)

The Quenelle is in the news at the moment and a lot of people (including some supposedly left wingers  ) are arguing that it isn't anti-semitic because it's aimed at 'Zionists'. So Zionism is a bit of a current topic.

Good on him for piping up in order to make people run a mile from it though.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> , and although I haven't kept up with BNP goings on for a good while, I presume that anti-Muslim paranoia is still high up on the BNP's agenda.


you aint missed much melly. apart from corruption charges and imminent collapse!!!!


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## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2014)

MellySingsDoom said:


> I'd certainly agree with all that, which makes me wonder why they've started using those specific images again right now - is it purely to support Golden Dawn, or is there summat else at play?  I'm not sure of the answer to that one myself, but it is rather...odd?  I mean, Griffclops binned anti-Semitism in favour of Islamophobia when he took over the BNP in 1999 (presumably taking a leaf out of Le Pen senior's book, there), and although I haven't kept up with BNP goings on for a good while, I presume that anti-Muslim paranoia is still high up on the BNP's agenda.   So why drag that stuff out of the woodwork again?  What's your take on it?
> 
> e2a:  Whilst I'd agree that anti-Semitism doesn't have that much currency in current "nationalist" circles in the UK, the situation w/regard to anti-Semitism in Europe is far more prevalent and worrying (see France, Greece, Hungary, Romania and Germany as immediate examples I can think of - I'm sure others here can cite more countries/examples)...



anti-semitism in the UK is not the same as elsewhere, its much less obvious. also antifascism has been much more militant and kept fascist groups out of the mainstream discourse unlike other places (france, greece - tho not to discredit antifa there!!!). the target is not so much the point rather the manipulation of other peoples ire - blaming 'the joos' for everything whilst doing the boss classes work for them. we have had jews, irish, 'blacks' 'asians' travellers, 'asylum seekers' and are about to gird up our racist loins to attack syrian 'refugees.' it is so predictable and uses the same rhetoric. BNP failed to align itself with EDL so is reaching further out and courting GD.


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## malatesta32 (Jan 29, 2014)

from indymedia re: BNP donations: 'This could well be via the Northern Irish registered "Knights of Albion" organisation that made the UKIP donation in the summer. The circumstances and amounts are very similar. 
The BNP has also been receiving funds from Italy and France. The French National Front gave them £50,000 in August last year as part of what they called a "European support grant" and the National Alliance in Italy via a personal gift from Gianfranco Fini for what he described as "protection of democratic parties" loan. This flowing of funds between all the European Right is likely a tax avoidance scam as they mostly don't care that much about each other. *Fash watch* '
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2014/01/514999.html?c=on#comments


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## ca-nami (Jan 29, 2014)

We are a liberal democracy.

Let them run, despite how "evil" they are per modern morals.


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## SpineyNorman (Jan 29, 2014)

ca-nami said:


> We are a liberal democracy.
> 
> Let them run, despite how "evil" they are per modern morals.



What does this mean?


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## emanymton (Jan 30, 2014)

I have heard the BNP have been dishing our leaflets claiming Griffin stopped a war with Syria. Can anyone confirm if this is true?

ETA found it. 
https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.bnp.org.. uk /sites/default/files/syria_a5.pdf&sa=U&ei=OUXqUrWRBYS07Qad_oD4BA&ved=0CBQQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNEaluDg7N77gtmP1em2ifNuN5-4Qg

They claim a BBC and media blackout of the story. 

Urmm
http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23942041


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 30, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I have heard the BNP have been dishing our leaflets claiming Griffin stopped a war with Syria. Can anyone confirm if this is true?


 
Dunno about leaflets but he has certainly made that claim:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-23942041

Absolute bollocks, obv.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Apr 2, 2014)

Anyone interested in an anti feminism meetup group? 

Looks like Claire Khaw has started one, the loon - http://www.meetup.com/The-Ethics-of-Feminism/?gj=ej1b&a=wg2_grpn

Interestingly she's also a member of a Muslim one...


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## Pickman's model (Apr 2, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I have heard the BNP have been dishing our leaflets claiming Griffin stopped a war with Syria. Can anyone confirm if this is true?
> 
> ETA found it.
> https://www.google.com/url?q=http://www.bnp.org.. uk /sites/default/files/syria_a5.pdf&sa=U&ei=OUXqUrWRBYS07Qad_oD4BA&ved=0CBQQFjAD&usg=AFQjCNEaluDg7N77gtmP1em2ifNuN5-4Qg
> ...


"dishing our leaflets"? surely "dissing our leaflets"


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## elbows (Apr 2, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> "dishing our leaflets"? surely "dissing our leaflets"



Dishing out leaflets.

Or, perhaps, demonising our leotards.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 2, 2014)

claire khaw, a confused individual.


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2014)

I've had a few run ins with her via Facebook. Utterly mental


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2014)

*Introduction*
Female anti-feminist, legally-trained and politically aware, interested in answers to important and urgent questions others are too afraid to ask or answer truthfully.

*How would you define feminism?*
Feminism is about enforcing the doctrine of gender equality but only when it suits the interests and arguments of feminists. Feminism asserts the right of women to be as sexually promiscuous as men, even though they are the ones who end up holding the baby. Feminism claims that women are SIMULTANEOUSLY better than men, equal to men but also in need of the protection and financial support of men. Feminism says women are right even when they are wrong, and that men are wrong even when they are right. Feminism is the ideology that establishes the matriarchy, and the matriarchy is a society that condones and rewards female promiscuity. Primitive and declining societies are matriarchies and discovering that you live in a matriarchy is the equivalent of discovering that your society has cancer. It also causes immigration and paedophilia, makes men think and behave like women and turns women into thugs and sluts. Feminism is destroying free speech, marriage, families and civilisation.

*How would you define feminism?*
No answer yet

*Does feminism undermine marriage?*
Yes.

*Does feminism undermine marriage?*
No answer yet

*Is any ideology that undermines marriage inherently evil?*
Yes.


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2014)

http://benwoodhams.wordpress.com/2010/06/12/claire_khaw/

Heh heh


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 2, 2014)

> Feminism is about enforcing the doctrine of gender equality but only when it suits the interests and arguments of feminists. Feminism asserts the right of women to be as sexually promiscuous as men, even though they are the ones who end up holding the baby. Feminism claims that women are SIMULTANEOUSLY better than men, equal to men but also in need of the protection and financial support of men. Feminism says women are right even when they are wrong, and that men are wrong even when they are right. Feminism is the ideology that establishes the matriarchy, and the matriarchy is a society that condones and rewards female promiscuity. Primitive and declining societies are matriarchies and discovering that you live in a matriarchy is the equivalent of discovering that your society has cancer. It also causes immigration and paedophilia, makes men think and behave like women and turns women into thugs and sluts. Feminism is destroying free speech, marriage, families and civilisation.


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## frogwoman (Apr 2, 2014)

malatesta32 not being funny but why did you publish an interview with her on your site, especially one that's fairly uncritical? Not having a go but I wouldn't want to give people like that a platform. I know you probably did it to take the piss but still, not something I would do


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## elbows (Apr 3, 2014)

frogwoman said:


> malatesta32 not being funny but why did you publish an interview with her on your site, especially one that's fairly uncritical? Not having a go but I wouldn't want to give people like that a platform. I know you probably did it to take the piss but still, not something I would do



Was that interview real? I thought it was a spoof that lacked substance.


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## frogwoman (Apr 3, 2014)

elbows said:


> Was that interview real? I thought it was a spoof that lacked substance.


 it might have been a spoof, seemed unlikely tho!


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## The39thStep (Apr 3, 2014)

Not as good as the Exclusive Charlie Sargent one


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## elbows (Apr 3, 2014)

Well she is so wrong in the head that I could easily be mistaken. Anyway I won't be studying her further.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 3, 2014)

no it was real. it was to see how far any piss could be taken. occasionally, letting them speak is better than stopping them.


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## Larry O'Hara (Apr 4, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> claire khaw, a confused individual.


confusion is one explanation: there is a more likely less charitable one.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 4, 2014)

unlike a lot of people on here Larry, I am actually polite!


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## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> no it was real. it was to see how far any piss could be taken. occasionally, letting them speak is better than stopping them.


Have you any concept of the principle of No Platform?


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## malatesta32 (Apr 5, 2014)

khaw is an isolated individual who supplies enough rope for herself. she represents no one but a single, confused, deluded figure. no platform for loons?


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## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

That'll be a no then


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## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

Your defence of giving a unrepentant Nazi a platform is that she is a 'loon' who represents nobody but is a 'confused, deluded figure'. 
   I suppose being happy to endorse the classist hate fodder of EDLnews, and having no concept of what a picket line is for, taking the piss out of the mentally Ill is just par for the course.


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## malatesta32 (Apr 5, 2014)

barney, you are mentally ill.


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## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

Is that a criticism, an insult or what?


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## J Ed (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> barney, you are mentally ill.



Bigot. No wonder you pal around with the nasty classist, ableist right-wing EDL News crowd.


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## Corax (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> barney, you are mentally ill.


You fucking _what?_


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> barney, you are mentally ill.



Don't be such a fucking idiot.


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## Citizen66 (Apr 5, 2014)

I know some other political types who are fans of the mentally ill.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> barney, you are mentally ill.


i expected better from you.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Apr 5, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i expected better from you.



I didn't.


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## Corax (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> unlike a lot of people on here Larry, I am actually polite!


If that's the case, an apology's in order. And not just to barney_pig


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## malatesta32 (Apr 5, 2014)

barney_pig said:


> I suppose being happy to endorse the classist hate fodder of EDLnews, and having no concept of what a picket line is for, taking the piss out of the mentally Ill is just par for the course.



arsehole


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## malatesta32 (Apr 5, 2014)

Latest 'Malatesta'! Read All Abaht It! 
http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/edl-post-mortem/


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## barney_pig (Apr 5, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> Latest 'Malatesta'! Read All Abaht It!
> http://malatesta32.wordpress.com/2014/04/05/edl-post-mortem/


Why? Who's going to be target of your anti fascist wit this time? The mentally ill?, the poor?, trades unions?


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 6, 2014)

Citizen66 said:


> I know some other political types who are fans of the mentally ill.



Fans as in "I'd like to take them all to a purge party"?


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## manny-p (Apr 7, 2014)

malatesta32 said:


> barney, you are mentally ill.


Not cool. Especially after what happened to Audiotech.  Hang your head in shame you cunt.


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## frogwoman (Apr 7, 2014)

Ffs not on.


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## Welsh lad (Apr 7, 2014)

I remember in 2009 when the BNP had 940,000 votes in the European elections and got its first two Euro MPs elected. Things could not be more different today with a bankrupt leader and hardly any recognition in mainstream public life.


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## ddraig (Apr 7, 2014)

Croeso


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## Welsh lad (Apr 7, 2014)

Diolch.


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## Fozzie Bear (Jan 8, 2016)

Bureaucracy LOLZ.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2016)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Bureaucracy LOLZ.



it'll be 'come back nick griffin, all is forgiven'


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 8, 2016)

Their last leader once threatened me and even I struggle to recall his name.


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## skyscraper101 (Jan 8, 2016)

Seems like they're re-registering and claiming it was a 'small clerical error' now


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Seems like they're re-registering and claiming it was a 'small clerical error' now



it was of course an abject humiliation


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 8, 2016)

I'm rather disappointed there hasn't been any more Nick Griffin cooking shows since the excellent first one.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 8, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Seems like they're re-registering and claiming it was a 'small clerical error' now



theres a joke about clerics in here somewhere...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 8, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> I'm rather disappointed there hasn't been any more Nick Griffin cooking shows since the excellent first one.


and a fine show of roast books it was too.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Jan 8, 2016)

skyscraper101 said:


> Seems like they're re-registering and claiming it was a 'small clerical error' now




Master-race!


----------



## Kev Scott LTJ (Jan 8, 2016)

Its Ok, according to their webshite, it was an administrative oversight.... all hail the mightly Clive Jefferson.... fear not they will be back (if they can manage to raise £25 before Dec 2017.... oh........ they are screwed then!)


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## Artaxerxes (Feb 13, 2016)

Bollocks

BNP embarrassingly admit to supporters: we’re back on the register!


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## malatesta32 (Feb 13, 2016)

it wont stop their decline into obscurity.


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## Poot (Feb 13, 2016)

Artaxerxes said:


> Bollocks
> 
> BNP embarrassingly admit to supporters: we’re back on the register!


You know, if you click on the link within that article, it takes you to a DM article about BNP leadership. Anyone who suffers with high blood pressure should probably stay well away from the comments section.


----------

