# ULU president nicked and given extreme bail conditions



## DrRingDing (Nov 14, 2013)

http://www.independent.co.uk/studen...n-attack-on-the-right-to-protest-8940329.html


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## J Ed (Nov 14, 2013)

Just saw this, still not entirely clear on what he was exactly arrested for. Either way absolutely disgusting.


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## ska invita (Nov 14, 2013)

organising yesterdays protest without permission from the police, i think


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## ska invita (Nov 14, 2013)

ULU is going to get fucked


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## Greebo (Nov 14, 2013)

A bit OTT to say the least (the conditions set, I mean).


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## Nice one (Nov 14, 2013)

police bail, which this is, are always notoriously over the top, deliberately so.This should get thrown out, ot at least altered given his first appearance in court when proper bail conditions will be issued.

Was arrested for s11 public order act - failure to given advance notice of a public procession (as one of the organisers).


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## kenny g (Nov 16, 2013)

Co


Nice one said:


> police bail, which this is, are always notoriously over the top, deliberately so.This should get thrown out, ot at least altered given his first appearance in court when proper bail conditions will be issued.
> 
> Was arrested for s11 public order act - failure to given advance notice of a public procession (as one of the organisers).



Can't he just go to  magistrates court to challenge them straight away? i.e. doesn't need to wait for the police to get him to court.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Nov 16, 2013)

ska invita said:


> ULU is going to get fucked



ULU is already fucked - afaik the protest was against the decision to close it down.


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## Nice one (Nov 18, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Co
> 
> 
> Can't he just go to  magistrates court to challenge them straight away? i.e. doesn't need to wait for the police to get him to court.



point is he's not been charged with anything, so technically he's not been accused of committing a crime. It could be challenged by judicial review but that'd be a longer more drawn out process.

Police bail is a kind of pre-emptive sanction used on those they presume will be charged eventually and as such i think the courts are happy to leave things as they are. Of course on political activists it is used politically. The one good thing is that breaking police bail isn't a crime, so if he was brave enough could easily ignore the instructions issued.


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## TopCat (Nov 18, 2013)

Breaching police bail conditions may not be a crime but does this not decrease the chances of ever being granted bail in the future and get remanded in custody instead?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Breaching police bail conditions may not be a crime but does this not decrease the chances of ever being granted bail in the future and get remanded in custody instead?


no


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## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2013)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> ULU is already fucked - afaik the protest was against the decision to close it down.


ulu's been fucked for years


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## Wilf (Nov 18, 2013)

Don't want to get into some liberal type wailing about 'the erosion of our right to protest', but this shit is really, really depressing.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2013)

Someone should tell these students that they also have the right to protest about something other than what a dreadful time students are having. Maybe if they did that I'd give a shit. 

I've seen far worse police bail conditions, I've been given far worse police bail conditions in fact, but the way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.


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## Wilf (Nov 18, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone should tell these students that they also have the right to protest about something other than what a dreadful time students are having. Maybe if they did that I'd give a shit.
> 
> I've seen far worse police bail conditions, I've been given far worse police bail conditions in fact, but the way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.


 I don't think the insularity of student politics is the point here. It's the self confidence of the current regime to simply say 'no, it ain't happening'.  [Again, note to self: steer clear of liberal wailing.]


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## kenny g (Nov 18, 2013)

Nice one said:


> point is he's not been charged with anything, so technically he's not been accused of committing a crime. It could be challenged by judicial review but that'd be a longer more drawn out process.
> 
> Police bail is a kind of pre-emptive sanction used on those they presume will be charged eventually and as such i think the courts are happy to leave things as they are. Of course on political activists it is used politically. The one good thing is that breaking police bail isn't a crime, so if he was brave enough could easily ignore the instructions issued.



There is absolutely no need to go down the Judicial Review route to have pre-charge bail conditions rescinded. I first heard about this during the excellent session held at the @ bookfair by the LDMG. It was agreed that if legal aid was not forthcoming then it could be done in person at the magistrates Court, the Legal Defence and Monitoring Group could arrange someone to attend if needed. :-



> "Conditions imposed by an officer may be varied by the magistrates court on application by the suspect (section 47(1E) PACE). The magistrates can confirm the same conditions, impose different conditions, or direct that bail shall be unconditional. It continues to be police bail. See Criminal Procedure Rules, Part 19, bail in the magistrates' court and the Crown Court for further information."


 http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/bail/#a04 (pre-charge bail)



> (1E)A magistrates' court may, on an application by or on behalf of the person, vary the conditions of bail; and in this subsection “vary” has the same meaning as in the Bail Act 1976.


 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1984/60/section/47 



> “vary”, in relation to bail, means imposing further conditions after bail is granted, or varying or rescinding conditions


 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1976/63/section/2


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## Nice one (Nov 18, 2013)

kenny g said:


> There is absolutely no need to go down the Judicial Review route to have pre-charge bail conditions rescinded. I first heard about this during the excellent session held at the @ bookfair by the LDMG. It was agreed that if legal aid was not forthcoming then it could be done in person at the magistrates Court, the Legal Defence and Monitoring Group could arrange someone to attend if needed. :-
> 
> http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/a_to_c/bail/#a04 (pre-charge bail)
> 
> ...



you're absolutely right, and relatively straight forward too. 

Someone should get chessum on it. I do know the courts won't look too kindly on the phrase "to prevent re-offending" given it's not been established he offended in the first place.


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## kenny g (Nov 18, 2013)

Nice one said:


> you're absolutely right, and relatively straight forward too.
> 
> Someone should get chessum on it. I do know the courts won't look too kindly on the phrase "to prevent re-offending" given it's not been established he offended in the first place.



There are loads of people on overly restrictive bail conditions at the moment and I would love to see some of them going down the route of challenging them by heading down the magistrates court 

ETA:- And here's the form to do it with:- http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/app-magistrates-court-police-bail.doc from http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/formspage (under part 19.6 of the Criminal Procedure Rules)

And here is part 19 of the rules:- http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/2012/crim-proc-rules-2013-part-19.pdf 

I reckon mentioning the Human Rights Act v. briefly and study requirements etc. should do the job with a successful application to modify the conditions. Conditions need to be proportionate. The actual offence in this case attracts a level 3 fine. A good starting point might be that Bail conditions shouldn't be more restrictive than the maximum penalty available to the court for the offence potentially charged.


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 18, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yes



Ftfy.


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## Nice one (Nov 18, 2013)

kenny g said:


> There are loads of people on overly restrictive bail conditions at the moment and I would love to see some of them going down the route of challenging them by heading down the magistrates court
> 
> ETA:- And here's the form to do it with:- http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/docs/app-magistrates-court-police-bail.doc from http://www.justice.gov.uk/courts/procedure-rules/criminal/formspage (under part 19 of the Criminal Procedure Rules)



too right. Legal support groups should be banging this stuff out as a priority. You won't get much traction from law firms but then a quick abc of your rights and each arrestee could do it themselves - getting people used to the idea of challenging the authority of the police in the courts as well on the streets. Good work there mate.


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## everything2go (Nov 19, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Someone should tell these students that they also have the right to protest about something other than what a dreadful time students are having. Maybe if they did that I'd give a shit.
> 
> I've seen far worse police bail conditions, I've been given far worse police bail conditions in fact, but the way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.


http://www.ulu.co.uk/about/campaigns/currentcampaigns/3cosas/


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## co-op (Nov 19, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> but the way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.



Bail conditions, civil injunctions and chocolate teapots. All equally useful at getting the job done ime (although you could eat the teapot I suppose).


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## Wilf (Nov 19, 2013)

everything2go said:


> http://www.ulu.co.uk/about/campaigns/currentcampaigns/3cosas/


 Yeah, ULU were pretty good on the 3 Cosas campaign afaik.


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## Onket (Nov 19, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> the way to deal with them is to completely ignore them.


 
Does this extend to football related conditions, do you know?


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2013)

Onket said:


> Does this extend to football related conditions, do you know?



The key thing is whether the bail conditions have been issued by the police or the courts. 

The courts generally won't give you the sort of bail conditions that can easily be overturned as they will have a clear set of rules about what is and what isn't proportionate or necessary to reduce the risk of absconding from a trial or re-offending whilst on bail. The police on the other hand seem to have no restrictions on the sort of mad shit they can use as bail conditions.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2013)

everything2go said:


> http://www.ulu.co.uk/about/campaigns/currentcampaigns/3cosas/



OK fair enough. There's nothing like this going on at my local students unions though, IIRC they didn't even support their own striking lecturers


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## Onket (Nov 19, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> The key thing is whether the bail conditions have been issued by the police or the courts.


 
I have seen the court overrule the conditions previously set by OB, but have no experience of what would happen if 'caught' breaking the conditions prior to that.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2013)

Onket said:


> I have seen the court overrule the conditions previously set by OB, but have no experience of what would happen if 'caught' breaking the conditions prior to that.



Breaking police bail is not a crime in itself, but you may be arrested and taken to court if you break it. The court will decide whether to rescind your bail, which realistically they're not going to do. Particularly if you can argue in court that keeping to the conditions was 

Failure to turn up to a court date when on bail is a crime though.


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## Hocus Eye. (Nov 19, 2013)

I often wonder why the police in London act in such a politically partisan way. Surely they have enough on their plate without leading attacks on political protest?. It is as if they see themselves as the natural enemy of students. Are they just bored and in need of a bit of excitement or for that matter incitemen?


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## Jon-of-arc (Nov 19, 2013)

I'd be quite careful about completely ignoring bail conditions, even police ones. If you get caught you'll get nicked, and possibly held in custody until you go before a magistrate, who will then make a decision on the appropriateness of further bail.

Happened to me back in 2000. Specifically it was police bail that I breached (post charge, prior to first court date). Four very inconvenient days on remand for that one, and then much stricter conditions than I was originally given.

My experience of working in the courts a few years later, where I sat through more bail hearings than I care to remember, is that one of the key factors in getting bail is past compliance with bail conditions. 

I'm not saying don't do it. But don't get caught doing it.


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## Onket (Nov 19, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I often wonder why the police in London act in such a politically partisan way. Surely they have enough on their plate without leading attacks on political protest?. It is as if they see themselves as the natural enemy of students. Are they just bored and in need of a bit of excitement or for that matter incitemen?


 
Not just London.

http://iwwboston.org/2013/11/15/insomnia-cookies-brings-police-assault-down-on-legal-picket/


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2013)

You have to use some judgement with these things obviously. Sometimes a police bail condition will tell you not to do something that's already illegal anyway, better not to break that sort. Sometimes they'll give you conditions which amount to placing you under curfew, even for a trivial offence. You have to ask yourself if they're likely to bother parking an unmarked police car across the street from your house for a couple of months to make sure you don't slip out to the chippy after dark. 

Even if you get caught breaking police bail you might well get away with it if you can argue that it was unfair to place the conditions on you in the first place. If a curfew or an exclusion zone prevented you from working or seeing a partner or family member, that sort of thing.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I often wonder why the police in London act in such a politically partisan way. Surely they have enough on their plate without leading attacks on political protest?. It is as if they see themselves as the natural enemy of students. Are they just bored and in need of a bit of excitement or for that matter incitemen?



The police like telling people what to do, and beating people up. Protests provide them with ample opportunities for both. I don't think there's a huge amount of ideology at work tbh.

Also a protest is basically a deliberate challenge to the will of some authority or other. Police know there's a handful of police and a fucking shitload of people who are not police, and that many of those people actively hate the police. I suspect on some level they consider any kind of threat or challenge to any kind of authority to be an implied threat to them personally. Without the public's obedience and fear of authority every single copper in the country would be face down in a canal by teatime. Hardly surprising that they don't like disobedience. It's the same reason I don't like crocodiles.


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## kenny g (Nov 19, 2013)

Agree with spooky that for a lot of coppers public order work is an extension of  their duties re. keeping the peace, with the added potential of a fight.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 20, 2013)

Hocus Eye. said:


> I often wonder why the police in London act in such a politically partisan way. Surely they have enough on their plate without leading attacks on political protest?. It is as if they see themselves as the natural enemy of students. Are they just bored and in need of a bit of excitement or for that matter incitemen?


Ever since 2011 and the student riots, the Met police (and the police elsewhere I imagine) have been using bail conditions to control protest and prevent protestors from protesting - it's a way of attempting to control people who haven't even been charged/convicted. It's happened with anti-fash demos, critical mass/the Olympics, student protests, the UK Uncut actions etc etc. Using bail is just another police tactic.

The current police strategy seems to be a) wait for a big protest, b) book a load of buses, c) kettle/round-up the protestors, mass arrest them, stick them on the buses and take them to the cop shop, d) give them bail conditions saying they can't protest. Hey presto, hundreds of people suddenly banned from the next demo.


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## caleb (Nov 20, 2013)

In the immortal words of Bordiga, students are inter-classist fungi.


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## Santino (Dec 4, 2013)

Parts of Senate House have been occupied.


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## 19sixtysix (Dec 4, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> EThe current police strategy seems to be a) wait for a big protest, b) book a load of buses, c) kettle/round-up the protestors, mass arrest them, stick them on the buses and take them to the cop shop, d) give them bail conditions saying they can't protest. Hey presto, hundreds of people suddenly banned from the next demo.



How long can the police hold you if you refuse their unreasonable conditions. If you've not been charged how long till they have to release you these days without going to court. You see people who've been arrested and released on police bail waiting months for the cops to do anything? I wonder if it'd be better holding out for a bit to save months dangling on police string.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2013)

Santino said:


> Parts of Senate House have been occupied.


there's an article about this in the standard which made my blood boil, partly because of the ignorance of the comments by chris cobb, partly because of the police violence: http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...ir-hair-as-police-break-up-sitin-8984395.html

i think he'd find the suffragettes did somewhat more than block fire escapes and invade work spaces: and as an ex-lse man he should know something about occupations. and of course it's hardly democratic to abolish ulu without giving students some say in the matter. at least you expect the police to show some degree of brutality; i, for one, don't expect a senior university administrator to be such a shit in public.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2013)

Small but noisy demo outside Holborn cop shop last night.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 5, 2013)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Small but noisy demo outside Holborn cop shop last night.


yes it's mentioned in the link i posted


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## treelover (Dec 5, 2013)

Editor of London Student has been arrested today(in handcuffs!), ironically nothing on mainstream media.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 5, 2013)

I hear 35 folk have been nicked today. Students being held at Euston Square.....apparently.


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2013)

Lines of cop vans outside Holborn nick. Clearly expecting trouble.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 5, 2013)

> All people caught in kettles have been arrested, including the legal observers monitoring the police's behaviour. [URL='https://twitter.com/search?q=%23copsoffcampus&src=hash']#*copsoffcampus*


[/URL]
https://twitter.com/GBCLegal/status/408661039983890432
https://twitter.com/GBCLegal/status/408661039983890432


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## J Ed (Dec 5, 2013)

Arrests of students, bans on political protest at Sheffield Uni, suspension of students at Sussex Uni, physical assaults on students in London and now this...

Is this coordinated?


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## treelover (Dec 5, 2013)

http://www.rightnow.io/breaking-news/copsoffcampus_bn_1386258082037.html

and this isn't a news story?


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## ddraig (Dec 5, 2013)

lovely, all in a day's work


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 5, 2013)

Fucking cowards.


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## ddraig (Dec 5, 2013)

some decent pics by Lee Thomas
14 is great
http://www.demotix.com/news/3422680/students-clash-police-london#media-3422264


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## Wilf (Dec 5, 2013)

fucking cunts


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## ddraig (Dec 5, 2013)

has the punching coward one been posted?
http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...nches-student-university-london-protest-video


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## J Ed (Dec 5, 2013)

Coverage here http://www.channel4.com/news/univerity-cops-off-campus-protest-police-violence


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## Quartz (Dec 5, 2013)

Disgraceful! AIUI this demonstration was not violent in any way. Just people making their views on the matter public. The police should have just stood back.


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## Wilf (Dec 5, 2013)

Here's a cop punching a demonstrator (sorry for the advert you'll probably have to endure):
http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...nches-student-university-london-protest-video


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## Wilf (Dec 5, 2013)

ddraig said:


> has the punching coward one been posted?
> http://www.theguardian.com/world/vi...nches-student-university-london-protest-video


 ... and again.


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 5, 2013)

#copsoffcampus is now the number one trending topic on twitter now


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 5, 2013)

There's a demo called tomorrow at 3pm at ULU

I'm gonna go along after work. I'm sick of this shit


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2013)

There's a national mobilisation next Wednesday with the ULU gathering at 2pm: https://www.facebook.com/events/565580810188930/

I'm going to take the afternoon off work and go down

I'm not prepared to stand aside and watch young people be kicked around like a lump of shit


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## Divisive Cotton (Dec 6, 2013)

> In the past month universities across the country have been subject to unprecedented levels of violence from the police, targeting a resurgent wave of activism against the privatisation of the university system.
> 
> Across the country, students are initiating a vibrant, popular, winnable fight for democratic and public universities, free from exploitation and repression. We cannot be beaten if we stand together.
> 
> ...


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## ringo (Dec 6, 2013)

Union (UCU) email:

*Subject:* UCU London Region: UoL demo arrests 5 Dec - Statement - please sign and circulate


Dear UCU London Region colleague

Please consider adding your name to the statement below and forwarding it to branch lists and other networks. 

This is getting out of hand! Colleagues may not be aware, but numbers of staff as well as students were kettled and arrested tonight. 

This statement is purposely focused on UoL, although we are very conscious that students and staff are being targeted elsewhere.

Whether you are a trade union activist, academic, student or just concerned for the future of our universities and democratic rights, please add your name by emailing Molly Cooper <molly.cooper2@btinternet.com> 

The aim will be to get this into the _Guardian _and get wider circulation. Names for the _Guardian _statement deadline will need to be in before 1pm on Friday.

Sean Wallis
London Region (HE) Secretary
---*
DEFEND THE RIGHT TO PROTEST AT UNIVERSITY OF LONDONWe, the undersigned, unreservedly condemn the escalating use of police against peaceful protests at the University of London.

On 4 December, students were violently evicted from Senate House, University of London (UoL), by private security and police. On 5 December, a protest march in Bloomsbury in their support, calling for 'cops off campus', was attacked and kettled by police, and over 30 staff and students were arrested. 

We believe this marks an escalation in the level of force against student-led protests at the University of London which threatens the ethos of the University.

It seems clear that UoL Management are not negotiating with students and staff who protest - including occupying students - but are simply attempting to suppress dissent. We condemn the blanket injunction brought by the UoL against demonstrations or occupations across their many campuses.

We call on all who care about the future of our Universities to object to this invited invasion of the police onto campuses. Police intimidation has no place in a seat of learning. Many staff and students have fled repressive regimes. We are horrified at supposedly 'liberal' university managements adopting these tactics.

We demand an immediate repudiation of the injunction by UoL Management, no more police on campus, and for UoL Management to engage with students and staff about the concerns that led to the protests in the first place.Signed
Molly Cooper, UNISON Service Group Executive
Sean Wallis, UCU NEC & UCL UCU President
+++
To add your name, email Molly Cooper <molly.cooper2@btinternet.com> 

*


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## Onket (Dec 6, 2013)

ringo, can anyone email that address to get on the petition?


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## ringo (Dec 6, 2013)

Yes Onket , I believe this for anyone who wishes to join in.


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## Onket (Dec 6, 2013)

Been emailed this-

--------------------
In light of several recent events involving violent actions taken by the Metropolitan Police against students in London, you are urged to sign this petition defending the right to protest at the University of London. As fellow students, academics and education workers, we need to defend our students, and our universities, from police intimidation: http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/defend-right-to-protest-uni-of-london/
On Wednesday evening, around 100 students occupied managerial rooms at Senate House in the University of London. They had a number of demands, including providing support to outsourced workers who were recently on strike and objecting to the recent decision to sell student debt to private companies. Rather than dialoguing with their demands, the management of Senate House called the police, even though the sit-in was entirely peaceful. Between 1800 and 2030, riot police entered the building and violently evicted the students. Eyewitness accounts report police dragging students across the ground, hitting them with batons and even, as this video shows, punching them in the face: http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/dec/05/students-protests-police-repression-university-of-london
This incident was followed by another, last night, in which a “cops off campus” demonstration outside ULU was surrounded by police. Protestors were kettled, assaulted by police and arrested en mass, including legal observers and journalists. This video shows the kind of “robust” tactics the police were employing against students: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LyneEk5uMg&sns=tw . In total, some 36 protestors were arrested for breach of the peace. They were then given ludicrous bail conditions such as not being within 50 metres of SOAS and not assembling with more than four people in a public place: https://twitter.com/SHoccupation/status/408816808439717889/photo/1/large . As this article makes clear, this aggressive policing is part of observable trend, in which student activists have been targeted for incidents such as writing chalk messages in support of striking workers: http://indyrikki.wordpress.com/2013/12/06/copsoffcampus-protest-attacked-by-police-and-yet-another-mass-arrest/
Please support our students and defend the right to protest. Police intimidation has no place in a seat of learning.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 6, 2013)

Sign a petition?!

FFS.

People need to be down there, occupying, organinsing.


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## Onket (Dec 6, 2013)

I don't think the petition is instead of that.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 6, 2013)

Onket said:


> I don't think the petition is instead of that.



It's a device to make people feel like they've done something. When they haven't.


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## Onket (Dec 6, 2013)

People who were going to do nothing can now feel like they have done something, then.


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## DrRingDing (Dec 6, 2013)

Petitions are not an appropriate response to this.


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## Onket (Dec 6, 2013)

I'd agree it's not appropriate as the sole response. But I have already made that point.


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## free spirit (Dec 8, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Ever since 2011 and the student riots, the Met police (and the police elsewhere I imagine) have been using bail conditions to control protest and prevent protestors from protesting - it's a way of attempting to control people who haven't even been charged/convicted. It's happened with anti-fash demos, critical mass/the Olympics, student protests, the UK Uncut actions etc etc. Using bail is just another police tactic.
> 
> The current police strategy seems to be a) wait for a big protest, b) book a load of buses, c) kettle/round-up the protestors, mass arrest them, stick them on the buses and take them to the cop shop, d) give them bail conditions saying they can't protest. Hey presto, hundreds of people suddenly banned from the next demo.


I remember some of our lot getting bail conditions preventing them from entering Newcastle city centre following an RTS protest in 1999. As the main next protest we were planning was in London on J18 the next weekend it didn't do too much to prevent them protesting, but it was pretty much impossible for them to actually get to Uni by bus, or anywhere else really without passing through the centre.

I got an 18 month conditional discharge in 2001 that effectively meant if I attended any protests in that time I could be nicked and retried for the original charge.

So it's been going on a lot longer than 2011, though it may well  be being used a lot more since then (not really involved so don't know either way).


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## littlebabyjesus (Dec 11, 2013)

Hundreds of coppers gathered outside Holborn nick again...


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## 8115 (Dec 11, 2013)

I'm just watching this on the BBC London news.  The presenter is like disgusted of Tunbridge Wells.


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