# A song of ice and fire (AKA the spoiler thread)



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

To remove some tension from the other thread.

So  what  do people think of  the   adaptation in terms   of  the book series?

who are you looking forward to seeing?  who do you think they might do well and  where do you think they  might  fail?

what do you think of the books overall?  where do you think it's all going?


personaly  i'm really hyped  for  a dance with dragons  as  i felt  a feast for crows  started to drag in places.  i particularly    felt  bored  by the   iron islands  sub plot.   the  most intresting bit  is  seeing  cersi  crash and burn

the evolution of jamie has been intresting  it seems the losing of a hand  has  been his  making.

talking of which wasn't Brienne's  cliff hanger ending a bitch?


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

Shiiit, I hardly remember any of this. Might as well re-read the books now that the last two are coming out. Overall I'm very pleased about the adaptation - maybe a tad less sex and a bit more killing would've improved things, but 9/10 from me so far.


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## ericjarvis (Jun 21, 2011)

I'll be re-reading the books from the beginning in a couple of months time. I've forgotten quite a lot, particularly about what happens in which particular book.

I'm looking forward to what they do with the north of the Wall stuff in the TV series, and the continuing development of Daenerys into a full scale warrior empress accidentally liberating huge numbers of people entirely as a by-product of attempting to gather an army to take back the seven kingdoms.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

i'm really  looking forward to  dance with dragons  because  of  all the  wall and Daenerys  stuff


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## flypanam (Jun 21, 2011)

Me too! The book seems to signal to start wrapping up of the series. I guess the Starks are Ice and Daenerys the fire of the title. Personally I'm on the Starks side, I'd like to see if and how Sansa, Ayra, Bran, Rickon and Jon reconvene. Also Dondarrion who is epic yet weary in the book see what game he plays...Also howland Reed to do some serious damage to Roose Bolton and Reek.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

i think it's the whole   death vs life thing   with   the ice  being the others  and  the  long winter  and  the fire  being  humanity and the summer   and  more specifically  dyneris being  the key     the bringer of dragons who will be able to halt the advance of the others  or at least  unify humanity  to  face their real foe


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

oh     and   second video   37 min in     song of ice and fire  the role playing game

http://spoonyexperiment.com/2010/11/06/vlog-11-6-10-health-update-more-dd-unboxing/


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i think it's the whole   death vs life thing   with   the ice  being the others  and  the  long winter  and  the fire  being  humanity and the summer   and  more specifically  dyneris being  the key     the bringer of dragons who will be able to halt the advance of the others  or at least  unify humanity  to  face their real foe


 
this - ice refers to what lies beyond the wall.


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## flypanam (Jun 21, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i think it's the whole   death vs life thing   with   the ice  being the others  and  the  long winter  and  the fire  being  humanity and the summer   and  more specifically  dyneris being  the key     the bringer of dragons who will be able to halt the advance of the others  or at least  unify humanity  to  face their real foe



Then, this will end up, like every other fantasy novel i've read as a work of untter Conservatism. Total shame.


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> Then, this will end up, like every other fantasy novel i've read as a work of untter Conservatism. Total shame.


 
You haven't read the right fantasy books then. Good and evil doesn't readily map onto a Conservatism-Socialism spectrum.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2011)

a lot of fantasy does go that way but it is by no means all of it. so like all other stories.


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## flypanam (Jun 21, 2011)

I think literature would be all the poorer is that was all that was offered. I like the series first off beacuse it's a gripping story, fairly well told though in truth he can be very heavy handed. Secondly because it's based on the 'War of the Roses' I do expect a quite conservative ending. However i don't see that this series has any sense of good or evil, the Others/Wrights (notwithstanding) the grey shades are overwhelming. And for that reason alone I would like something more than Daenarys sitting on the throne at the end, rubbing away any of interregnums(sp) history...

This probably ain't the form but what would you suggest for the "right" fantasy books?


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

"Right" is pretty vague... I'd try out some of Gene Wolfe's stuff. He's a bit of a love it/hate it type of author, quite literary.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2011)

gene wolf, le guin, china meiville.


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

M_*ie*_ville!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## wtfftw (Jun 21, 2011)

Oooh. It the A Dance With Dragons release date actually really real then?


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## TruXta (Jun 21, 2011)

Apparently really really really real.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2011)

flypanam said:


> I think literature would be all the poorer is that was all that was offered. I like the series first off beacuse it's a gripping story, fairly well told though in truth he can be very heavy handed. Secondly because it's based on the 'War of the Roses' I do expect a quite conservative ending. However i don't see that this series has any sense of good or evil, the Others/Wrights (notwithstanding) the grey shades are overwhelming. And for that reason alone I would like something more than Daenarys sitting on the throne at the end, rubbing away any of interregnums(sp) history...
> 
> This probably ain't the form but what would you suggest for the "right" fantasy books?



although I will agree with you on the grey moral ground, or as I prefer to call it 'shower of cunts'. Its hard to like anyone in 'Clash of Kings', hence me sacking the series off. I'll have to read the rest now to see whats going to happen in the prog.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

as much as it does have grey moral ground characters  it  does have it's fair share  of  evil characters i mean  it's prety hard to class  the mountain and his gang  as  anything but  evil. 
 it  does quite well in showing   that supposed   bad guys like the wildlings  are  also    grey  morally  


i think    they  key  here is  to see what happens  with  the others.


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## Stigmata (Jun 21, 2011)

Jon will be king, Daenerys will be queen and Tyrion will be hand. You heard it here first.

Also Jon Snow is blatantly Rhaegar & Lyanna's son. So he's Daenerys' nephew. Um.



It would be more satisfying if the kingdom splits for good, I reckon.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 21, 2011)

that is  disturbingly possible

although  i can't  see   jon actually leaving the nioghts watch i  do imagine   a   changed north  where  he is seen  as  both air to  winterfell a king beyond the wall and   lord comander of the nights watch.   a senareio that     the king of the north   means  to be     the holder of the wall  and  a  go between  for the wildlings an d the south


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## wtfftw (Jun 21, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Apparently really really really real.


 
Zomg. Basically.


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## DotCommunist (Jun 21, 2011)

How did danerys manage to have all her clothes burned off but not the barnet?


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## Stigmata (Jun 21, 2011)

It's called platinum blonde for a reason


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## ericjarvis (Jun 22, 2011)

flypanam said:


> This probably ain't the form but what would you suggest for the "right" fantasy books?


 
Guy Gavriel Kay, in particular Tigana and A Song For Arbonne. Quite similar in many ways to George RR Martin in that it's high on grit and low on magic, has interesting characters often working against archetypes, and loads of political machinations to go with the background of casual violence. However Kay is a far better writer, and they are actually novels not parts of a huge epic sequence that may never get finished.

They aren't technically fantasy (or any other genre really) but I highly recommend Mary Gentle's books if you can handle some fairly disturbing stuff. She uses more historically accurate settings, and rather than magic uses the pre-Newtonian idea of "hermetic science" as if it actually worked. In that sense it's sort of sf but with deliberately wrong science. Wonderfully strange stuff and generally brilliantly written. The best is Ash: A Secret History and its sequel Ilario, though 1660 and the White Crow books are excellent too.


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## ericjarvis (Jun 22, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i think it's the whole   death vs life thing   with   the ice  being the others  and  the  long winter  and  the fire  being  humanity and the summer   and  more specifically  dyneris being  the key     the bringer of dragons who will be able to halt the advance of the others  or at least  unify humanity  to  face their real foe


 
I strongly disagree.

The overarching theme is the use and abuse of loyalty. What Daenerys has isn't dragons, that's just what she thinks she has, but her real strength is that she has followers who owe her their freedom. The Starks have a code of honour that is rigid to the point of being dangerous, and the Lannisters have a code of honour that basically consists of fuck everyone before they get the chance to fuck you and then claim you are doing the right thing and kill anyone who disagrees. All of them are badly flawed and the books detail those flaws pretty thoroughly.

I'm expecting a conclusion that implies that after all the mayhem and death, nothing has really changed for the vast majority of people.


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## TruXta (Jun 22, 2011)

I'm expecting a conclusion where near everyone (and I do mean everyone) is dead.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

i don't think ice is the Starks  because  by nolw   there are only  two and a half  of them  left  and  they  don't   present the  same  dynamic as ned  did

also  where  does  the lannisers  come into the title  then? a song of ice, fire and dangerous cunts?


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

Stigmata said:


> Also Jon Snow is blatantly Rhaegar & Lyanna's son. So he's Daenerys' nephew. Um..



But Jon was Nedd's kid. His mother was a milk maid somewhere down south. I think that's made known in ASoS part 2.




Stigmata said:


> It would be more satisfying if the kingdom splits for good, I reckon.



Agreed.


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i don't think ice is the Starks because by nolw there are only two and a half of them left and they don't present the same dynamic as ned did
> also where does the lannisers come into the title then? a song of ice, fire and dangerous cunts?



It's the dynamic, honour will out in most fantasy novels. The Starks are being tested and scattered. However like Ayra dreams of being a wolf leading a pack, Jon, Bran (maybe Rickon) do to. I imagine that Jon will be the rallying point for the Starks beacuse he makes some pretty strong decisions as Lord Commander of the Wall. I think he'll have to become embroiled in the Westeros conflict leading Bran etc to the wall. Ayra will return as a faceless woman and carry out some mad bad moves. 

As for the Lannisters i don't think they have actually anything to do with the series title. They are just utter shits.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

well if they are honour then  what is daenerys.

plus so far i feel  that  for the  starks  it's a story of  change.  jon  is now a black brother   arya  is  now  becoming a faceless   stansa is  now  littlefingers pawn  and  bran is off to become the winged wolf.  even the mum is  now  zombie bitch from hell.

the same  in a way goes  for the  lannisters   they  were  powerful but internal conflict  has  torn them  apart.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

after seeing spoony talk about it  i got myself  this

http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1934547131/ref=ox_ya_os_product


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

'There must always be Stark in Winterfell' 'The lone wolf dies while the pack survives' little gems like this make me think the Straks are there to the end. 

As for Jon, Cersei has sent 100 men to the wall to take Jon out. Despite Jon protesting and writing that the watch has nothing to do with the wars of the realm, the realm see's him giving aid to Stannis. Cersei has effectively decleared War on the Black Watch. The Watch for it's survival will have no other option but to foght. And will become a rallying point for the remaining Starks. Ayra, because she hid Needle, cannot quite let go of her Stark heritage. All imho.


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## teecee (Jun 22, 2011)

This thread is a bad idea - my books only arrived today and I have no willpower so if I click on this thread and spoil anything I'll be most put out and heads may well roll

bastards


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

But it's a spoiler thread


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

well they have  left the possibility  open  with the  fact  that  robb  named jon as his successor

and i think the freys  might be for the chop   they have  fucked off everyone


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> and i think the freys  might be for the chop   they have  fucked off everyone



Amen, brother!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

it does look like  it's  coming to the point where  everyone is after peace.  cersei and tywin look to be out of the picture   jamie is  getting some humility and nobility.  on the stark side only jon really remains  and his priority is to support the realm.  the only big problem now is stannis.


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## TruXta (Jun 22, 2011)

Where you at Shippy?


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

Not only Stannis but the Brynden Tully escaped Riverrun, a more capable and rousing man than Edmure and sworn to the Starks.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Where you at Shippy?


 
finished  feast for crows  and i have  dance for dragons on preorder


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

wait was tully at the meeting where robb named jon as the successor?


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## flypanam (Jun 22, 2011)

I think he was.


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## teecee (Jun 22, 2011)

flypanam said:


> But it's a spoiler thread



That's like having a big red button labelled "Whatever you don't push this big red button"


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## Stigmata (Jun 22, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> stansa is  now  littlefingers pawn


 
Don't count her out. A much maligned character, but she's being inducted into Littlefinger's world of power games and plots, and I think when she figures out he was the one who properly shafted her dad, she'll turn her new skills against him. I think letting himself get close to Sansa (because she reminds him of her mum), is going to prove to be his one fatal misjudgement.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 22, 2011)

Oh i'm not counting her out   perhaps pawn  isn't  the best term.  Hers  is also a story of change.  She has moved from being  an unwitting pawn in the game of thrones  to being  an informed accomplice  and  she may well start taking on the role of a player.


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## andy2002 (Jun 23, 2011)

Thought Tyrion got a bit short-changed (ho ho) in episode nine - in the book he armours up and gets stuck in to the battle, in the ep he's knocked over and trampled into unconsciousness! Because he fought in the battle, it then made sense that his dad would ask him to go and rule at King's Landing. The series has been superb apart from the odd slip though.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 23, 2011)

yeah that  was  a bit of a poor show.  

i get why. battles are difficult and expensive.


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## janeb (Jun 26, 2011)

Finished Game of Thrones last night so starting A Clash of Kings today. Waterstones have the books on a '3 for 2' offer at the moment if, like me, coming to these new.


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## flypanam (Jun 27, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Guy Gavriel Kay, in particular Tigana.



Started this last night. Promising.


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## flypanam (Jun 27, 2011)

Sorry for all of those on this thread who have not read the whole series (so far) but what do the rest of you make of the religious aspect of the books? With the Seven gaining an army, R'holler and the Red Priest/ess, The weirwood and the Many Faced God. Is there gonna to be a clash of 'fundamentalisms'? Off this topic in AFfC I found the Dornish chapters a drag except for the last one so what is Doran Martell up to?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 27, 2011)

i found the dornish and the iron born chapters a bit boring.   the  iron born  one  was  particularly a bit jarring  because  it    suddenly went all viking on us.   i guess it's  just  showing another aspect of life in the kingdoms  but  i just  kinda lost interest after a bit

i guess it  show  both  how much and  how little  the  war  did.    it nearly  destroyed  the riverlands  and  has had implications  on the   idea of single  kingship  but  it  has barley  touched  dorn or the iron  islands

what i want to know  is  what  about the  rest of the north   what happened  up there?  or is it  just  so sparsely populated no one  gives a damn?


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 27, 2011)

and although  i think  the  religious stuff might be interesting   especially  the    power the sept  may now have over  the  throne   i'm  not  sure  how  much   some of the other religions  come into the  story.     the old  gods   might be worshipped  but they  don't  seem to be  active   and  the fire god  guy   seems  not to have that many followers in the kingdoms yet.  plus  the  drowned god   seems to be a minority god


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## Stigmata (Jun 27, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i found the dornish and the iron born chapters a bit boring.   the  iron born  one  was  particularly a bit jarring  because  it    suddenly went all viking on us.   i guess it's  just  showing another aspect of life in the kingdoms  but  i just  kinda lost interest after a bit


 
Jaime was then star of the last book IMO. Loved the bit where he knocked down the guy who was badmouthing Brienne. Also the scenes where he confides in the tongueless knight.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 27, 2011)

he is evolving as a character.   the loss of the hand  could be his making.

the adventures of Brienne and Podric  weren't too bad either although  that was an evil cliffhanger  to end on.     leaving just enough room  to  leave a get out clause.

actually  i think   martin does  this  with a lot of his charactors   just incase  he want to  do something with them.

the waterdancer  guy  has  a get out clause.   the hound too  technically   could be alive  although it looks  quite unlikely now   although  that monk could be hiding something.   the rock climber guy   is still missing too.

it might  just be the nature of POV  writing      but    it could be  he is saving them up.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 6, 2011)

came to a good bit in the third one today and thought of a song to the tune of copacupana



Spoiler: jamie



He fucked his sister, his hand cut cut off
in realm far way jaime's had a shitty day
There's boobage and swords and dothraki hordes
on westros, continent westros



this is as far as I've got


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 6, 2011)

his name was jamie, he was a kingsguard
with golden curly hair he's half of an incestuous pair.
he won tourneies and built up his pride
so when the tables turned  he tried out regicide

etc


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## Stigmata (Jul 7, 2011)

Early reviews for the next book seem pretty positive


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## DotCommunist (Jul 12, 2011)

dropping like flies! 

question



Spoiler: succesion



does joggreys richly deserved death strengthen stannis' claim to the iron throne? or has Cersie got another spawn she claims as being from roberts loins?



and the starks have the shittiest luck in the world. They've been getting mugged off more or less constantly for the whole of books 1-3


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 12, 2011)

amazon says  my copy of  the next book arrives tommorow


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 12, 2011)

Cersie  has  three kids   jeoff     the female one and tommen


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## gawkrodger (Jul 13, 2011)

half way through the third at the mo. Pleased I did start to read them after the first season of the TV show finished


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## Pickman's model (Jul 13, 2011)

a third of the way through the fifth


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 13, 2011)

my copy is   next door as  the postie  came  while i was at work.  annoyingly they  were no longer in when i got home.


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## Stigmata (Jul 14, 2011)

I'm going to hold out until my 12hr flight in a couple of weeks. It'll be a challenge, not least to avoid JON SNOW DIES LOL type spoilers on the internet.


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## flypanam (Jul 14, 2011)

My copy of A dance with Dragons arrives today. Take a week to read to the 1,000+ pages and then wait 6 years until 'The Winds of Winter' is on sale then Martin will be dead and the last one won't get published. Bummer.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 14, 2011)

23 pages into  DwD 

so far so awesome


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## flypanam (Jul 15, 2011)

Started Adwd today. Mind is already racing about possibilities...


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 18, 2011)

finished a dance with dragons.  it's really  long (959 fucking pages. 1015 if you count the  list of houses) yet  for some reason it  feels  like not  very much happened.  

i guess that because  the story is told  from so many different viewpoints what you  get is  a more  personal view of a time of change.

this book as  with just about all the other  doesn't  really  work as an individual book.  this  is  the next instalment  but the point  where  one  book ends  and  another begins  feels  somewhat arbitrary.

it  seems  that  for  ever piece we lose in the  game  of thrones  we  gain another, sometimes  two. one  of the slightly  annoying things  was  the  amount  of  time  we  spend  with characters  we  don't have much  investment in. 


ok  going into  spoiler territory  here   and  although this is the spoiler thread    i think   i'll  give those  who haven't finished the book yet  a  bit  of  a chance.



Spoiler: vader is lukes father



Shitting hell is  jon dead?  

if  so  as much as i'll respect the  book  i think  my  enjoyment  of  it  might  slip  a little.  he  was one of the last characters  that i felt  i had  real investment in.    for me  only tyrion  feels  like  more of  a main character.  this  is  why  all through  the  last  book  i felt  a little   detached.  the only one  i really   connected with in that  book was  sam. the books  will be  epic  but   i'm not sure  if  they can stay  engaging. 

part of  this i suppose  is  the  desire  for  heroes.  we want  jon to  be   an aragorn.  a scruffy  ranger of the north  but  in him flows  the  blood of  kings.   and  he   has  the  trappings  of this. he is  desended  from  the king of the north.  he  has   magical powers that he  does  not  yet  fully master.  he  rose up  from  the ranks  to  become a leader of men.   and  he dies  with  a knife in his  back for upsetting the balance.

he may well be  dead  however  as   that  could  just  be  the  means  to  set him free from the wall.   there was   a large  amount  said about  wargs  moving into other  bodies   if  dying     and  Melisandre  was hinting to use  his power  in his time of need  not to mention red priests have  been known to resurrect  bodies   before.  hell the  experience may even  be the  true  awakening of his powers. 

i guess it's  up in the  air  at the moment  and   we  won't find out till the  next  book  if  this  will be   a  defining  moment  to mark the weakness of man  or  simply the  tempering of  the steel  forged to stand against the winters night.

i dunno   if  it  was all  just  a  pretence  and  jon  was just   injured i will fell that was  just  a big  tease.   if  he   gets out  magically  that   feels kind of  wrong too.   so far  the   magical assistance  has  been  very slim   and  using it  now  in a big  way  would  be strange.    if  he is  dead... i dunno   for  every    reason i thing  he  should  live   i also think... valar morghulis


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jul 18, 2011)

interesting  theories   being bandied  about    online

http://towerofthehand.com/blog/2011/07/12-speed-readers-spoiler-thread/index.html#a,81


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## flypanam (Jul 22, 2011)

Half way through Adwd. I'm liking it, not so much the Danys stuff though. There are a couple of shockers when I've had to put the boojk down, shake my head and shout 'Really? REALLY? C'mon George!!!'

However the stuff on the Wall and White Harbour has been excellent.


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## gawkrodger (Jul 24, 2011)

just finished A feast for Crows. Will have to pick up ADWD tomorrow.

Have to say I thought of all the series so far, AFFC is the weakest book


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## flypanam (Aug 11, 2011)

Spoiler: vader is lukes father



No my man. Not in my opinion. Left for. But not.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 11, 2011)

i think the story is sort of getting lost in the books

the first three books  managed to hold together  as they were doing the north vs south thing    but  in the last two books i feel that events  are almost in a holding pattern.  a couple of big things have been hinted especially in the north  such as what's going on with the boltons  and stannis  but  nothing was  cleared up

this  book kinda felt like a big tease for the next one


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## Stigmata (Aug 11, 2011)

I thought the Barristan Selmy bits were really good, as were most of the Jon Snow chapters. There were enough good secondary characters (Selmy, Tormund Giantsbane) to make up for the annoying ones (that dwarf girl). The Reek chapters were quite unpleasant. The early Jon chapter with Janos Slynt was probably my favourite bit overall.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 17, 2011)

yeah what you find out about house bolton and their house  guests is  fairly eye watering


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## xenon (Aug 26, 2011)

Excuse the spellings here, haven't got books to hand But this is puzzleing me. The Frog Woman. The old mystic crone  Sersalie thretts over, who told her she would be queen. Does this incident occur in the first book or is it just through Sersalie's recollections we know of it? Not a massive point but it keeps cropping up and is bugging me.

I'm half way through Feast of Crows ATM. SO if there's a spoiler regarding the above, ignore me.


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## xenon (Aug 26, 2011)

Actually I shouldn't read this thread, should I. 
*closes lid*


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## xenon (Aug 26, 2011)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> i don't think ice is the Starks  because  by nolw   there are only  two and a half  of them  left  and  they  don't   present the  same  dynamic as ned  did
> 
> also  where  does  the lannisers  come into the title  then? a song of ice, fire and dangerous cunts?



OK, OK, I read first page. But the title's pretty self evident no? Ice, The waking death of the others the whites beyond the wall and the encroaching winter, ying, to the yang, summer, fire of life,. To be restored through Deneries.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2011)

xenon said:


> OK, OK, I read first page. But the title's pretty self evident no? Ice, The waking death of the others the whites beyond the wall and the encroaching winter, ying, to the yang, summer, fire of life,. To be restored through Deneries.


perhaps you should read a little more.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2011)

gawkrodger said:


> just finished A feast for Crows. Will have to pick up ADWD tomorrow.
> 
> Have to say I thought of all the series so far, AFFC is the weakest book


why?


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## Stigmata (Aug 26, 2011)

xenon said:


> Excuse the spellings here, haven't got books to hand But this is puzzleing me. The Frog Woman. The old mystic crone Sersalie thretts over, who told her she would be queen. Does this incident occur in the first book or is it just through Sersalie's recollections we know of it? Not a massive point but it keeps cropping up and is bugging me.
> 
> I'm half way through Feast of Crows ATM. SO if there's a spoiler regarding the above, ignore me.



It's a memory from her childhood. IIRC she and a friend visit the fortune teller in Lannisport, who prophesises that Cersei's children will die and she'll be murdered by her brother. Cersei later murders her friend, which was also prophesised on the same night.


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## xenon (Aug 26, 2011)

I meant first page of the thread. Reading FoC at the moment...


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## xenon (Aug 26, 2011)

Stigmata said:


> It's a memory from her childhood. IIRC she and a friend visit the fortune teller in Lannisport, who prophesises that Cersei's children will die and she'll be murdered by her brother. Cersei later murders her friend, which was also prophesised on the same night.



Aha. OK I'm definitely out of this thread now, I've seen too much.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 26, 2011)

xenon said:


> Aha. OK I'm definitely out of this thread now, I've seen too much.


too much but never enough


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## Shippou-Sensei (Aug 27, 2011)

xenon said:


> OK, OK, I read first page. But the title's pretty self evident no? Ice, The waking death of the others the whites beyond the wall and the encroaching winter, ying, to the yang, summer, fire of life,. To be restored through Deneries.



that seems a little too...  good/evil.  dragon/other  i could get  as they are somewhat elemental  but      the  summer = life hope  etc  sounds  too    nobel hero and evil lord  for  this world


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## Stigmata (Aug 27, 2011)

I hope Bran doesn't turn into a tree


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## DotCommunist (Aug 27, 2011)

I think he will. You'l never walk again but you will fly is a hint of that I recon


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## Stigmata (Aug 27, 2011)

What I particularly like are some of the speculations about that final Jon Snow paragraph, wrt the big prophecy that keeps being mentioned.



> "When the red star bleeds and the darkness gathers, Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt."


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## janeb (Sep 25, 2011)

Right, starting Dances With Dragons...


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## xenon (Sep 25, 2011)

I finished ADWD, well last week. I presume John hasn't actually been killed. Fucked up for sure. But he wouldn't have had him attacked at the end, just to kill him off, surely. That would be all kinds of dramatic wrongness. Anyway, he's either one of Robert's Bastards or Aries I reckon. (Although I can't remember what John looks like. Is he described particularly.)

Has Brienne killed Jamie

Reak, Reak, it rymes with eek. Are the Boltons gonna get it in the next book I wonder.

...


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## xenon (Sep 25, 2011)

janeb said:


> Right, starting Dances With Dragons...



That's a bit coincidental . I honestly didn't post here because you bumped it. In fact I used the search function to find the thread again. I know it's the spoiler thread but I would have left it a bit had I seen your post first. Of course, if you've read this, bit late now.


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## Stigmata (Sep 26, 2011)

Jon is described as looking much more 'Stark' than any of Ned's legitimate children, with the exception of Arya. Sansa and the others all take after their Tully mother. The most common fan speculation is that he's the son of Lyanna Stark and Rhaegar Targaryen (making him Dany's nephew, and grandson to the mad king).


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## xenon (Sep 26, 2011)

I'm gonna go back over a couple of bits. Didn't Mellicinda practically tell John who his mother was. Or someone did.

This is probably what comes of reading down the pub.


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## janeb (Sep 27, 2011)

xenon said:


> That's a bit coincidental . I honestly didn't post here because you bumped it. In fact I used the search function to find the thread again. I know it's the spoiler thread but I would have left it a bit had I seen your post first. Of course, if you've read this, bit late now.



No worries   I already knew the Jon thing -can't resist a spoiler no matter how much I try


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## Dandred (Oct 28, 2011)

Bran didn't crop up much yet in A Dance with dragons, but he seems to be the most interesting character so far............

I predict (I haven't got to the end of the book yet) he will become a dragon or at least be able to control it wrag style.....

In future books at least


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## Orang Utan (Nov 17, 2011)

I gave up on A Dance With Dragons a third of the way in. It's way too baggy and far too many new characters to care about. i wanted to know what was happening with the remnants of the Stark family, not all these Dorne and Targaeren pretenders.
Got fed up of Martin's tiresome fake mediaeval language too. I only really rated three of the books, A Game Of Thrones, A Clash Of Kings and A Storm Of Swords. The latter half of A Storm Of Swords is possibly the most exciting plots I've ever read. Loads of 'What? Nooo/Yesss!' moments.
The series has jumped the shark and also my resolve has been somewhat battered after learning there a two more books in the series. Martin will probably be dead before he finishes, so it's time to cut my losses and move on to reading something else.


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## Stigmata (Nov 17, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> I gave up on A Dance With Dragons a third of the way in. It's way too baggy and far too many new characters to care about. i wanted to know what was happening with the remnants of the Stark family, not all these Dorne and Targaeren pretenders.
> Got fed up of Martin's tiresome fake mediaeval language too. I only really rated three of the books, A Game Of Thrones, A Clash Of Kings and A Storm Of Swords. The latter half of A Storm Of Swords is possibly the most exciting plots I've ever read. Loads of 'What? Nooo/Yesss!' moments.
> The series has jumped the shark and also my resolve has been somewhat battered after learning there a two more books in the series. Martin will probably be dead before he finishes, so it's time to cut my losses and move on to reading something else.



I would at least read all the Jon Snow chapters. Also Cersei's brief appearance is good and Ser Barristan gets a bit of page space towards the end. The epilogue has a nice twist in it.

The rest I could take or leave, but I think he's just setting the pieces up for the final act.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 17, 2011)

Oops, I just deleted it n all, but I read about what happens anyway.


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## Stigmata (Nov 17, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> Oops, I just deleted it n all, but I read about what happens anyway.



Shame. The Cersei chapter in particular is well written (if a bit sadistic, but it's Cersei so that's ok). And the Wildling chief Jon negotiates with is quite entertaining, a bit of a Brian Blessed type.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 17, 2011)

i'll just d/l it again. no worries


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 17, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> I gave up on A Dance With Dragons a third of the way in. It's way too baggy and far too many new characters to care about. i wanted to know what was happening with the remnants of the Stark family, not all these Dorne and Targaeren pretenders.
> Got fed up of Martin's tiresome fake mediaeval language too. I only really rated three of the books, A Game Of Thrones, A Clash Of Kings and A Storm Of Swords. The latter half of A Storm Of Swords is possibly the most exciting plots I've ever read. Loads of 'What? Nooo/Yesss!' moments.
> The series has jumped the shark and also my resolve has been somewhat battered after learning there a two more books in the series. Martin will probably be dead before he finishes, so it's time to cut my losses and move on to reading something else.



No Leyalty you people... *coughs*


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## Stigmata (Nov 17, 2011)

I mislike these fair weather fans


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 18, 2011)

Wish I'd waited till he'd finished them...read them all in ten days then found I have to wait years for the next ones.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 2, 2012)

i've just started wheel of time

that might last me  a while as i wait


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## DotCommunist (Apr 3, 2012)

If HBO did WoT they would so leave all the sub bdsm themes in


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## Stigmata (Apr 3, 2012)

It couldn't be as awful as that Terry Goodkind TV series (which was still better than the books)


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## SpookyFrank (Apr 3, 2012)

I just finished Dance with Dragons and yeah, it was pretty disappointing. The pacing was completely shot, with the first half of the book focussing on Stannis who then completely disappears for the remainder of the book. Pretending to kill off the characters is starting to wear thin too; Brienne, Arya, Asha, Tyrion and now (probably) Jon have all had chapters ending with something that should have killed them, only to be carelessly deus ex machina'd back in later on. As gutted as I was to see Robb Stark get it, I was at least thankful that he stayed dead.

Quentyn's storyline was a complete non-sequitur as far as I can see, his meagre contributions to the plot could easily have been dealt with by other characters. Victarion's story could easily have been covered in a single chapter, assuming that his part of the story isn't just going to fizzle out like Quentyn's did.

A lot of the dramatic effect of the earlier books came from events happening off-camera so to speak, like Robb's campaign against the Lannisters. With so many more point of view characters cropping up that effect has been watered down, and we now find ourselves following people we don't really know or care about, mostly as they travel laboriously from one place to another and hatch plans that never come to anything.


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## Stigmata (Apr 4, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Quentyn's storyline was a complete non-sequitur as far as I can see


 
“_When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east_, then you shall return to me, my sun and stars”

Theory is that his role could be as an omen of something, Martell's sigil being the sun.


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 16, 2012)

the TV show is making me  feel sorry for theon.   he  drew the short straw.   

but haven't they changed  the roles about?  in the  book  it  was   bolton jr egging  him on  wasn't it?  

kinda makes a big  diffrence    when you find  out  what they do.


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## Stigmata (May 16, 2012)

Yes it was. They've started changing shedloads of things. The Xaro Xhoan Daxos in my mind was played by Richard O'Brien.


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 16, 2012)

ok   that  kinda bugs me

i kinda feel  that was important   it  sets up a lot of what happens  with theon     his  downfall and  his  finding of  some new  nobility


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## Stigmata (May 16, 2012)

It's not quite the same when Finchy from The Office is the one leading you astray, that's for sure


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 16, 2012)

doesn't rhyme with leek


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 24, 2012)

It's getting a bit funny seeing this much of rob in the show. I guess they are going to end this season with another stark death to mirror the first season.


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## janeb (May 24, 2012)

Ive not minded the changes to be honest, it's quite good being surprised from time to time but I would be pissed off if they fucked around with the red wedding. Unless they tried to squeeze into the end of this series but that's rushing that storyline somewhat!!


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 25, 2012)

sorta.

the only bit i do  mind is  the missing reek


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## Shippou-Sensei (May 25, 2012)

oh and the swamp kids.  they need to turn up


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## DotCommunist (May 25, 2012)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> sorta.
> 
> the only bit i do mind is the missing reek


 

I also find it remarkable that a character whose entire story is based on intense, agonising torture and how he is broken by it doesn't feature more. Those lazy adaptationing fucks!


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## SpookyFrank (May 25, 2012)

I too will be pissed off if Robb's death gets crammed into this series of GoT. 

And I'm not happy about the Reed kids, two of my favourite characters from the books, not showing up at all in the TV series.

The guy who plays Xaro Xhoan Daxos is great though so I've got no problems with him.


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## Stigmata (May 25, 2012)

I was a bit peeved when they killed off the two of Daenerys' servants that I like, and not the one who actually dies in the books.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 4, 2012)

TV series    season 2  was  kinda good

they might even  be able  to  make  the story drag  less.


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## The Octagon (Oct 16, 2012)

Raced through ASOS and over halfway through A Feast For Crows now (so not spying the rest of the thread), but just wanted to say I cannot wait to see how non-readers react to the events in Seasons 3 and 4, I was reading some chapters with my mouth hanging open.

So basically anytime there's a wedding in Westeros, get the fuck away from it 

Looking forward to seeing how they do Dorne too.


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## thriller (Nov 3, 2012)

well. finally finished the last book. must say, theon's chaters were cracking read.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Nov 4, 2012)

Can we spoil up to the end of the books? I need to talk about 'smoking wounds'


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## Stigmata (Nov 4, 2012)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> Can we spoil up to the end of the books? I need to talk about 'smoking wounds'


 
And bleeding stars, and salt?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 4, 2012)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> Can we spoil up to the end of the books? I need to talk about 'smoking wounds'


That's the idea of the thread!


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 16, 2012)

yeah in here we assume every one has read up to the latest book

i assume there will be a period of grace for a month or so after the release of the next one....... in about 10 years


so yes  jon got shanked  ceaser style.

possibly  as part of a prophecy


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## The Octagon (Nov 28, 2012)

Just finished the last book, raced through them during a couple of long train journeys. Must have looked a bit odd to the other passengers when my mouth kept opening in shock 

Proper moment of "Rah" when Jon read Ramsey's letter and immediately decided to go fuck him up, shortly followed by "what?! WHAT?! what the fuck?". Definitely can't see him staying dead, there's a Red God resurrection coming I think. Not so sure about Stannis, Ramsey claimed he was dead, a trick hopefully (maybe Manderley's men will report him dead and bring his sword to Bolton, drawing the forces within Winterfell out to be surrounded by Stannis' men).

Still not sure what I want to happen to Theon, despite everything I still want him to survive (and it sounds like Asha had plans to challenge the kingsmoot because of his absence).

Do we think Aegon / Griff is actually Rhaegar's son? Loved Tyrion convincing him to attack Westeros to prove himself worthy to Dany, would she support his claim or want the Iron Throne herself?

Wonder if Lena Heady has read ahead for Cersei's later scenes 

I'd almost forgotten about Varys until that last chapter, very interesting.

More than anything while I was reading, I was thinking "How the fuck will they film some of this?".

When is Winds Of Winter meant to come out?


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## flypanam (Nov 28, 2012)

Its been ages since I read DoD. I don't think JS is dead I think he's injured and some of the loyal members of the watch save and protect him.


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## Firky (Nov 28, 2012)

Fuck John Snow, it's all about Ser Barristan's battle


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## PursuedByBears (Nov 28, 2012)

flypanam said:


> Its been ages since I read DoD. I don't think JS is dead I think he's injured and some of the loyal members of the watch save and protect him.


I think there's going to be some warging-type transference into Ghost.


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## Stigmata (Nov 28, 2012)

firky said:


> Fuck John Snow, it's all about Ser Barristan's battle


 
Pit fighter vs pensioner? It can only go one way


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## marty21 (Nov 28, 2012)

on the last book, progress slow - too big to cart about so it's by my bed - 300 odd pages in and only now is it getting more interesting


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## Firky (Nov 28, 2012)

Stigmata said:


> Pit fighter vs pensioner? It can only go one way


 
It's about a year, maybe more since I read the last of the series but I put it down with a smile, Barristan suddenly comes into his own. No longer a gentle wise old knight but one tough fucking ol' boy who loves the art of battle. That's what it is to Barristan, an art 



*HUGE SPOLIERS | **HUGE SPOLIERS*





Riding out from a besieged city into a vast army with him at the helm... just lots of FUCK YEAH!!!! 

Now we just have to wait half a decade to find out what happens and hope Martin doesn't die from fat-bastarditis inbetween


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## Stigmata (Nov 29, 2012)

The Octagon said:


> Do we think Aegon / Griff is actually Rhaegar's son? Loved Tyrion convincing him to attack Westeros to prove himself worthy to Dany, would she support his claim or want the Iron Throne herself?


 
I'll eat my halfhelm if he's legit. Daenerys had a vision in the warlock's house that suggested he would be a dud.



> More than anything while I was reading, I was thinking "How the fuck will they film some of this?".


 
They're pretty much shafted. Something like 12 storylines on the go at the moment, each in a different location with a different set of characters. And until we know how it pans out it's impossible to say which stories can be safely dropped.


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## The Octagon (Nov 29, 2012)

Found a couple of preview chapters that Martin has apparently been reading at events



Spoiler: Winds of Winter preview



Victarion about to smash the fuck out of the Yunkai / Volantene fleets just as Barristan the Bold leads his army to attack from the other side, with Tyrion sat in the middle trying to convince the Second Sons to swap sides AGAIN 


 
I really wish I hadn't raced through the books now, I've got to suffer the waiting that everyone else has put up with


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## Firky (Nov 29, 2012)

Couldn't believe what he had in store for Ol' Barry, proper, "GAN ON, SON"  


Proper knightage


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## Stigmata (Nov 29, 2012)

"He was like an artist that only painted in red" - Jaime Lannister


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## Firky (Nov 29, 2012)

Stigmata said:


> "He was like an artist that only painted in red" - Jaime Lannister


 
I have a feeling that was pinched from the First World War, in which the Germans nick named the British Maxim Machine Gun the "Devil's Paintbrush".


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 29, 2012)

Stigmata said:


> I'll eat my halfhelm if he's legit. Daenerys had a vision in the warlock's house that suggested he would be a dud.
> 
> 
> 
> They're pretty much shafted. Something like 12 storylines on the go at the moment, each in a different location with a different set of characters. And until we know how it pans out it's impossible to say which stories can be safely dropped.


 
I can think of two or three of the storylines from 'Feast' in particular which could either be dropped entirely or merely touched on without doing much damage to the plot.

The thing that annoyed me the most about the last two books is that there are so many things going on that keep threatening to come to some sort of resolution but never do. A big part of the reason the earlier books were so good was that the balance between resolution and suspense was handled really well, but now there are more loose ends than I can keep track of and there are cliffhangers left over from the end of book three which still haven't been addressed yet.



Spoiler



And Jon, Brienne and Stannis (and possibly someone else I've forgotten) have all been left hanging in a state of near or probable death. That would be sloppy writing on a TV show, but in books it's just absurd.


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## The Octagon (Jan 16, 2013)

Just been reading a quality thread on the dedicated ASOIAF boards, basically stuff you might not have put together / noticed.

Link - http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/79116-wow-i-never-noticed-that/

My favourites (some quoted from that thread):

Shireen's fool Patchface singing prophecies left right and centre - "Fool's blood, king's blood, blood on the maiden's thigh, but chains for the guests and chains for the bridegroom, aye aye aye."


> An ah-ha moment for me was when I read about Shae lying in Tywin's bed. It tripped a memory of the conversation Varys and Tyrion had about the tunnel and how it was made for a previous Hand of the King whose honor would not permit him to be seen frequenting a brothel.
> 
> Tywin was that Hand!!!


Oberyn Martell poisons Tywin Lannister during a breakfast with Mace Tyrell, hence why he is on the toilet when Tyrion kills him, and why his body stinks so badly during the funeral.



> The Freys that keep going missing in Winterfell are killed by Lord Manderley's men and served in pies to their relatives (hence Manderley drunkenly calling himself "the Rat Cook" in reference to the tale Bran and the Reeds are told earlier on)


 
Quentyn Martell being the "sun that rises in the west and sets in the east" from Dany's prophecy (the Sun and Spear being the sigil of House Martell, and him dying trying to tame the Dragons)



> The parallels between the 'Lightbringer' story and the births of Dany/Jon/Tyrion. Azor Ahai forged Lightbringer on his 3rd attempt, but had to kill Nissa Nissa to do so. Dany, Jon & Tyrion are all 3rd children who killed their mothers in childbirth. Possible 3 dragon riders?


 
*awaits slew of people saying "we knew all of those, duh"*


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## Stigmata (Jan 16, 2013)

Yeah that's a good thread. I liked that some people inferred Pyat Pree the warlock was now in the Iron Islands, from a couple of offhand quotes in different books. Cleverly written stuff.


----------



## Stigmata (Jan 20, 2013)

I love this- it's the song Mance Rayder sings in the chapter that introduces him:


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## Stigmata (Jan 20, 2013)

/


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## Firky (Jan 20, 2013)

The Octagon thread bookmarked for reading another day, good sutff


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## DotCommunist (Jan 20, 2013)

that thread is an object lesson in why I shouldn't read while half cut. Can't believe I missed the poison/tywin thing. Seems so obvious in now its been said


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## The Octagon (Jan 20, 2013)

Stigmata said:
			
		

> Yeah that's a good thread. I liked that some people inferred Pyat Pree the warlock was now in the Iron Islands, from a couple of offhand quotes in different books. Cleverly written stuff.



That was a good one, to borrow from another HBO show "all the pieces matter".


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## Stigmata (Mar 24, 2013)

So the bearded one has been reading out preview chapters of the next book at events. Records are available here and there. I've pinched the (fairly detailed) account below from the official forum.



Spoiler: Ser Barristan 1 and 2



*SER BARRISTAN I*

The chapter begins with a gory description of the bodies of plague victims being thrown into the city by the trebuchets. Only the northern districts across the river are far enough away to avoid being hit.

Barristan rides into the large market by the western gate wearing his new Queensguard armor and riding the silver horse that Drogo gave to Dany. He feels that this is presumptuous, but thinks that even while the queen is missing it is important to have some symbol of her around to improve morale. Three of his lads ride with him: Tumco Lho, Larraq, and the Red Lamb.

In the marketplace (featuring landmarks like the statue of the chainmaker and the spire of skulls), at the “hour of the wolf,” the main forces that will participate in the attack gather. There are five thousand unsullied, the Storm Crows, a ragged band of about twenty dothraki and the pitfighters. The Shavepate’s beasts are manning the city walls in place of the unsullied. They will serve as the city’s last line of protection if Barristan’s attack fails and Dany has not returned.

The attack will leave from three gates (north, south, and west), but Barristan will lead the charge against the main Yunkai’i forces directly to the west. Barristan thinks that the attack is against all of his instincts, as the basic numbers are against them and success hinges on trusting sellswords -- in particular, trusting the in the Tattered Prince’s greed.

He meets with his commanders (including the Widower, Jokin, Grey Worm, and some of the pitfighters). Their plan is to lead with the horse and flank the defending legions, taking out the trebuchets and burning the pavilions. The pitfighters will advance after the horse and focus on intimidation and slaughter. Finally, the unsullied will line up outside the gate, which should be successful if the Yunkai’i don’t mount an immediate counterattack.

Barristan reminds the commanders that they must retreat or advance when they hear the Red Lamb blow the horn. The Windower asks what to do if there is no horn blast -- that is, if Barristan and his lads are all dead. Barristan knows that this is likely, as he intends to be first through the lines of the Yunkai’i, so he just says that in that case, the Widower will be second in command. Barristan then remembers that Lord Commander Hightower had once told him to never speak of defeat before a battle, since the gods might be listening.

It will be dawn soon. Someone says “A red dawn,” and Barristan thinks “A dragon dawn.” Previously, he had prayed to each of the seven for various things, ending with a plea to the stranger for mercy. Though he knows all men must die eventually, Barristan would like to live through the day.

More bodies fall from the sky. Barristan notices Tumco Lho’s reaction and sees that the lad fears the pale more more than the foes outside the gates. Barristan then gives a stirring pep talk about how every man fears every battle. At first, the Red Lamb is defiant, saying that doesn’t fear death because at that point he’ll get to meet the Great Shepherd -- when he plans to break his shepherd’s crook in two and castigate the shepherd for creating such a peaceful people in such a violent world.

Barristan continues his lecture, saying that there is “nothing more terrible, nothing more glorious, nothing more absurd” than war. Even Barristan admits that he shat his pants in his first battle. He is interrupted by a murmur among the soldiers -- a fire is lit at the harpy on top of one of the pyramids, presumably to signal the men at each gate to begin the attack. The gate opens and Barristan sounds the call to attack.

[At this point he says there will be a Victarion and Tyrion chapter (perhaps the ones he has already read), in some order, at which point we return to...]

*SER BARRISTAN II*

His gut feels twisted from nervousness as he rides through the gates. He knows that the feeling will go away when time slows down in the chaos of battle. Dany’s horse is easily outpacing the lads and the rest of the cavalry; Barristan is pleased because he intends to outrun the Widower and strike the first blow. The Yunkai’i are totally unprepared and Barristan closes in on the Harridan, the largest of the trebuchets. The stormcrows take up the cry, “Daario!” and “Stormcrows, fly!” Barristan thinks that he will never again doubt the valor of sellswords.

There are only thirty yards between the horse and the Yunkai’i legions by the time any defense is mounted. The air fills with arrows. A squire for the stormcrows is killed, and a bolt pierces Barristan’s shield. There are three horn blasts and the pitfighters emerge from the gate behind them.

Barristan glances back to see the pitfighters. There are about two hundred of them, but they make enough noise for two thousand. One woman stands out, wearing nothing but greaves, sandals, a chainmail skirt, and a python. Barristan is a bit shocked and, watching her breasts bouncing around, thinks that this day is sure to be her last. The pitfighters are mostly shouting “Loraq!” and “Hizdar!” but some do call out “Danaerys!” Larraq is hit in the chest with an arrow, bringing Barristan’s attention forward, but the squire keeps the banners held high and shakes it off.

Barristan has reached the Harridan, but a Ghiscari legion six thousand strong has lined up to protect the huge trebuchet. They are six ranks deep -- the first rank kneels and holds their spears pointing out and up, the second rank stands and holds their spears out at waist height, and and the third rank holds the spears out on their shoulders. The rest have small throwing spears and are ready to step forward when their comrades fall.

Barristan knows that a maester’s chain is only as strong as his weakest link, and identifies the companies of the Yunkish lords as the weakest of his immediate foes, certainly weaker than the slave legions. In particular, Barristan targets the Little Pigeon and his herons. The slaves chosen to be herons were freakishly tall before they were put on stilts, and wear pink scales and feathers and steel beaks. But Barristan sees that they will be blind because of the dawn rising over the city, and like to break ranks easily, so Barristan turns away from the legion guarding the trebuchet at the last minute and heads for the herons.

He cuts the head off of one of the herons and his lads join the fray. Dany’s horse knocks a heron into three others and they all fall over. In a moment, the herons are scattering and running away, led by the Little Pigeon himself. Unfortunately for the Little Pigeon, he trips over the fringes of his bird armor and gets caught by the Red Lamb. The Little Pigeon begs for mercy, saying that he will fetch a large ransom. The Red Lamb just says “I came for blood, not gold” and knocks in the Little Pigeon’s head with his mace, splattering blood all over Barristan and Dany’s silver horse.

The unsullied begin marching through the gates, and Barristan sees that the Yunkai’i have missed their chance to effectively launch a counterattack. As he watches more of the slave legions get slaughtered, mostly those who were chained together and could not retreat, he wonders where the sellsword companies like the treacherous Second Sons have gone. The unsullied finish lining up outside the gates, implacable even when one of their own number falls with a crossbow bolt to the neck.

Tumco draws Barristan’s attention to the bay, asking “Why are there so many ships?” Barristan remembers that yesterday there were twenty, but now there are thrice that many. His heart sinks when he reasons that the ships from Volantis must have arrived, but then sees that some of the ships are crashing together.

He asks Tumco, whose young eyes can see more clearly, to identify the banners. Tumco says “Squids, big squids. Like in the Basilisk Isles, where sometimes they drag whole ships down.” Barristan replies, “Where I’m from, we call them krakens.”

Realizing that the Greyjoys have arrived, his first thought is “Has Balon joined with Joffrey, or the Starks?” But he realizes that he’s heard that Balon is dead, and wonders if this has something to do with the Balon’s son, the boy who was a ward of the Starks. He sees that ironmen are coming ashore, fighting the Yunkish, and says, surprised, “They are on our side!” The sellswords did not come to meet his charge because they were already preoccupied with the ironborn!

Barristan is almost gleeful. “It’s like Baelor Breakspear and Prince Maekar, the hammer and the anvil. We have them! We have them!”


----------



## Firky (Mar 25, 2013)

I fucking love Ser Barristan but... eek! You're teasing me something rotten, Stigmata 

If I read it through my fingers then it doesn't count as spoiling it... does it?


----------



## Firky (Mar 25, 2013)

Haha I just took a peek and stopped at the first then second paragraph. This is torture, fuck you Stigmata you uber kant


----------



## Stigmata (Mar 31, 2013)

Happy Easter one and all! The day we remember the Messiah Prince Who Was Promised, who is probably gonna be Daenerys isn't it


----------



## The Octagon (May 2, 2013)

thriller


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Jun 7, 2013)

What do you think the long term effects of the red wedding might be on the TV series and....



How might people lose their shit over what happens with jon in the latest books



I never  got invested with  robb the way i invested with jon.   it might be the fact that jon was never a POV charactor.    it night be becuase  more hope was placed on  jon

for me robb was only ever  ned 2.0     he wasn't nad  but i never really felt for him.    I kinda want   to re-read  the books  with  the TV robb in my head.




what i do feel is   fuck robb  and  lets skirt  jon......


if they ever suggest ariya dying i will lose my shit.   

no fucking joke.





that and tyrion.


if they actually kill tyrion or ariya   i may well just burn  my copy of the books



i will respect the  guy    but   i might just call it done.  jon is pushing it   but    i can take it.


----------



## Stig (Jun 7, 2013)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> What do you think the long term effects of the red wedding might be on the TV series and....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

There's no way Aria will ever die. I feel I may be on more shaky ground with Tyrion, but would like to think that is also the case. And I'll throw in Bran too.


----------



## Stigmata (Jun 7, 2013)

Arya may be on a path that's unredeemable except through self-sacrifice.

I'm not sure why but I really want Cersei to go down fighting, defiant to the end.


----------



## xenon (Jun 7, 2013)

Is there one more episode in the TV season? I read they're likely to move the Joffry and Tywin murders til next year. But then what would be left for episode 10. Aria running off to... Bravos. That city with the death temple thing. 

John won't be apparently killed for quite some time yet. I'm only presuming he'll be reserected or something in the next book anyway. TV audience will be accustomed to the MO by then.


----------



## xenon (Jun 7, 2013)

edited. I misread the wiki entry for Winds of Winter.


----------



## Stigmata (Jun 7, 2013)

xenon said:


> Is there one more episode in the TV season? I read they're likely to move the Joffry and Tywin murders til next year. But then what would be left for episode 10. Aria running off to... Bravos. That city with the death temple thing.
> 
> John won't be apparently killed for quite some time yet. I'm only presuming he'll be reserected or something in the next book anyway. TV audience will be accustomed to the MO by then.


 
Not sure how they're going to end this series but they've built up Joffrey's wedding so it has to feature. I'm hoping we'll get the full hat trick with Balon Greyjoy being offed as well. That could be a great scene, potentially.


----------



## Stig (Jun 7, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> Not sure how they're going to end this series but they've built up Joffrey's wedding so it has to feature. I'm hoping we'll get the full hat trick with Balon Greyjoy being offed as well. That could be a great scene, potentially.


 
That would make for an amazing finale. But the wedding is quite a way through the second half of the 3rd book IIRC so how could they squeeze it into this series?


----------



## The Octagon (Jun 7, 2013)

No way will they have the Purple Wedding this season, they need to introduce the Dornish (or at least the Red Viper) first surely?

I think Arya has one last bit of business (getting Needle back from Polliver, possibly in the tavern fight) before she leaves the Hound for dead and heads to Braavos.

As regards the book, the most plausible scenario for Jon is that he Wargs into Ghost at the point of death (John's Ghost, geddit  ) and then Melisandre resurrects him (as Thoros was doing to Beric, except Jon will come back whole because his conciousness was saved inside Ghost).

At this point Mel switches her belief from Stannis being the saviour of Westeros, to Jon instead. To round this out, newly minted Faceless (wo)Man Arya is sent to take out Melisandre, and Jon, not recognising her, kills his baby sister with Longclaw, fulfilling the Azor Ahai prophecy (killed his loved one to forge his sword) and Longclaw becomes Lightbringer.

But as this is all far too tidy for George Martin, fuck knows


----------



## Stigmata (Jun 7, 2013)

Stig said:


> That would make for an amazing finale. But the wedding is quite a way through the second half of the 3rd book IIRC so how could they squeeze it into this series?


 
Well there's no evidence of it in the trailer so you may be right. It would be a missed opportunity though. The very end of this series will be the resurrection of Catelyn Stark (I can see that pissing the audience off a LOT).


----------



## The Octagon (Jun 7, 2013)

Lady Stoneheart shouldn't show up yet either, but I think you're right, I can't see them having another ending quite as impactful.


----------



## xenon (Jun 7, 2013)

Stigmata said:


> Not sure how they're going to end this series but they've built up Joffrey's wedding so it has to feature. I'm hoping we'll get the full hat trick with Balon Greyjoy being offed as well. That could be a great scene, potentially.




Dam I've forgotten that. Who kills Balon Greyjoy?


----------



## TitanSound (Jun 7, 2013)

xenon said:


> Dam I've forgotten that. Who kills Balon Greyjoy?


 

He "falls" from a bridge.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Jun 7, 2013)

TitanSound said:


> He "falls" from a bridge.


 
Strongly implied that it's a Faceless Man.  Sent by Tywin or Stannis, I can't remember?


----------



## xenon (Jun 7, 2013)

Not Melisandre's work?  I'm a bit hazy on a lot of it now.


----------



## Stigmata (Jun 7, 2013)

PursuedByBears said:


> Strongly implied that it's a Faceless Man. Sent by Tywin or Stannis, I can't remember?


 
The relevant prophecy, as I quoted on the other thread:



> "I dreamt of a man without a face, waiting on a bridge that swayed and swung. On his shoulder perched a drowned crow with seaweed hanging from his wings."


 
The implication is that it was a Faceless Man, acting for Euron Greyjoy ("Crow's Eye") who reappears after years at sea straight after his brother's death. Melisandre's curse on all the pretender kings may have played a role, although the most recent book implies that most of her power lies in prophecy and that she foresees events rather than controlling them.


----------



## Stigmata (Sep 8, 2013)

So there's been some promising casting news of late, with a few nice roles being filled by decent actors.

Indira Varma as Ellaria Sand
Pedro Pascal as Oberyn Martell, the Red Viper
Mark Gatiss as Tycho Nestoris of the Iron Bank of Braavos
Roger Ashton-Griffiths as Mace Tyrell, Lord of Highgarden

Also Daario Naharis has been recast with Michiel Huisman in the role

I don't know the chap they've got playing the Red Viper, and there are grumblings that he's a bit 'whiter' than people imagined, but they've made consistently great casting decisions in the past so i'm optimistic.


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 9, 2013)

Bringing in Nestoris earlier than I would have expected, but Iike Gatiss for the part.

Also strange with some of the recastings recently, I understand recasting Tommen as his character has a little more stuff to do coming up, but changing Daario is going to be odd for TV viewers as he was quite prominent in Dany's storyline last season. Similarly, they have again recast The Mountain, I wonder if his duel with the Red Viper will have as much impact, given Clegane has barely been seen in the last 2 seasons.


----------



## Stigmata (Sep 9, 2013)

Clegane was always somebody known more by his reputation, even in the books. If he'd ever had a POV chapter we'd probably have discovered he was a sensitive soul who loved his gran and liked painting watercolours of birds


----------



## The Octagon (Sep 19, 2013)

Just lost an hour - http://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/1iwfc1/spoilers_all_the_grand_northern_conspiracy_parts/


----------



## ringo (Oct 23, 2013)

Finally got round to reading A Dance With Dragons. The phrase "many and more" is really starting to grate.


----------



## trabuquera (Oct 23, 2013)

Nice (if overlong and a bit beard-strokey) literary analysis here of the cycle and its TV adaptations. A few spoilers but nothing to ruin your life.

I just find it amusing that it's getting serious lit-crit attention (there was another rhapsodic piece about it in the London Review of Books recently too...) and even more hilarious that the author below ends up concluding that it is actually ... wait for it ... going to end up as one big feminist tract. bwahahahaha!
http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2013/nov/07/women-and-thrones/


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 23, 2013)

Glad to hear they've replaced the bloke playing Daario Naharis, the previous guy was really annoying and didn't help with the fact that most of Dany's scenes are pretty dry anyway thanks to Emilia Clarke's general rubbishness.


----------



## The Octagon (Oct 23, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Glad to hear they've replaced the bloke playing Daario Naharis, the previous guy was really annoying and didn't help with the fact that most of Dany's scenes are pretty dry anyway thanks to Emilia Clarke's general rubbishness.



Really? I thought he played the part of a massive douche pretty effectively tbh.


----------



## JimW (Oct 23, 2013)

ringo said:


> Finally got round to reading A Dance With Dragons. The phrase "many and more" is really starting to grate.


I read 'em all in one go and reckon you could spot where martin had learned a new word he liked, as then it would crop up too often for my tastes - "leal", an archaic way of saying "loyal" being one that stood out.
Anyway, I saw somewhere else that they're going to be filming Bernard Cornwell's Saxon series with what looks like a goood cast, so we shally be spoiled for sword and skulduggery.


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 23, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Glad to hear they've replaced the bloke playing Daario Naharis, the previous guy was really annoying and didn't help with the fact that most of Dany's scenes are pretty dry anyway thanks to Emilia Clarke's general rubbishness.



They need to give him the blue hair and gold tooth


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 24, 2013)

The Octagon said:


> Really? I thought he played the part of a massive douche pretty effectively tbh.



He did indeed, but I actually quite liked Daario in the books and I didn't much care for the 'massive douche' angle they went for with ponytail guy.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Oct 24, 2013)

ringo said:


> Finally got round to reading A Dance With Dragons. The phrase "many and more" is really starting to grate.



'Little and less' on the other hand, I quite like. But less is definitely more with these sorts of phrases, ideally they should be reserved for use by specific characters IMO. Especially in a work with billions of characters some of whom become increasingly difficult to tell apart.


----------



## ringo (Oct 24, 2013)

Probably a tricky thing, to put across the notion that there are stock phrases in use across his world, without over-using them so that they become tedious. In our reality this happens all the time; we quickly get sick of over-used tropes such as "like you do", OMG, etc, but others stay fresh and can be used ad nauseum, like "Thatcher's dead".


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 24, 2013)

Mislike is the worst. Kind of used wrongly to, if we're using proper English


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2013)

mislike is fine, I use it myself on occasion. It downplays what could be outright distaste


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 24, 2013)

Mis- is not the same as Dis- though


----------



## Stigmata (Oct 24, 2013)

On the plus side he has a good line in catchphrases. "Winter is Coming", "Dark Wings, Dark Words", "What is dead may never die" etc. I'm waiting for Roy Walker to add these to his repertoire


----------



## ringo (Oct 25, 2013)

Mummers farce - surly he knows another phrase for this.


----------



## The Octagon (Mar 27, 2014)

Speaking of mummers (that worked out nicely), Martin has just released another excerpt from Winds of Winter - http://www.georgerrmartin.com/excerpt-from-the-winds-of-winter/

Now hurry up and finish the damn book.


----------



## InfoBurner (Mar 27, 2014)

Cracking little crowd pleaser of a chapter


----------



## The Octagon (Mar 27, 2014)

InfoBurner said:


> Cracking little crowd pleaser of a chapter



Innit, some great references to earlier stuff and current plot points, hope the rest lives up to it.


----------



## Lea (Apr 2, 2014)

I have come to the TV series and the books only very recently. Now up to date with the TV series so have started to read the books where Season 3 has left off. I am enjoying immensely both the TV series and the books. I haven't got very far in the books. Only started a couple of days ago. I've been reading the spoilers on the internet too. I hope to stay ahead in the books before each TV episode of Season 4 comes out. Is anyone safe?


----------



## strung out (Apr 2, 2014)

How many spoilers do you want? 

I could tell you exactly who dies and who lives in the books given that this is the spoiler thread, but I'm not sure you'd like to know what happens to everyone, to be honest.


----------



## Lea (Apr 2, 2014)

strung out said:


> How many spoilers do you want?
> 
> I could tell you exactly who dies and who lives in the books given that this is the spoiler thread, but I'm not sure you'd like to know what happens to everyone, to be honest.


 No don't encourage me. I've already read too many spoilers. It's a nice shock everytime another death is revealed so don't tell me as it will take away the surprise element.


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 2, 2014)

Lea said:


> No don't encourage me. I've already read too many spoilers. It's a nice shock everytime another death is revealed so don't tell me as it will take away the surprise element.


 
Get out of the thread, it's nothing but spoilers


----------



## Idris2002 (Apr 3, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> What do you think the long term effects of the red wedding might be on the TV series and....
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 3, 2014)

I welcome the death of any character if it is dramatic or bloody enough


----------



## Gromit (Apr 3, 2014)

strung out said:


> How many spoilers do you want?
> 
> I could tell you exactly who dies and who lives in the books given that this is the spoiler thread, but I'm not sure you'd like to know what happens to everyone, to be honest.



Book knowledge is power.

Apparently a teacher was fed up of his students misbehaving and so he threatened that unless they behaved he was going to start writing the names of all the characters in the next TV series that died. 



> When faced with a noisy auditorium, the teacher threatened to write the names of all the characters who die in Game of Thrones series three on the board.
> 
> After discovering the majority of his students watched Game of Thrones, he said: “Well, I’ve read all the books. If there is too much noise again, I will write the names of the dead on the board.”
> 
> Belgian newspaper nieuwsblad.be reports him as saying: “They [the dead] are enough to fill the whole year and I can even describe how they die.”


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 5, 2014)

Should I let my 15yr old daughter watch this?  She really wants to watch citing all her friends watch it. Of course. Wife is not to keen and I'm not sure
The slab of books that compose the series puts me off from getting into it tbh.


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 6, 2014)

Yes you should, it's the best thing on telly and you will get massive cool dad points for it!

And it's really tightly plotted and enough to fill a politics 101 syllabus.  Depends on how comfortable you are with sexposition scenes...


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 6, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> Should I let my 15yr old daughter watch this?  She really wants to watch citing all her friends watch it. Of course. Wife is not to keen and I'm not sure
> The slab of books that compose the series puts me off from getting into it tbh.



Make sure you've explained sex-related things to her first.

'You see, when a dwarf and a prostitute love each other very much...'


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 6, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Make sure you've explained sex-related things to her first.
> 
> 'You see, when a dwarf and a prostitute love each other very much...'


----------



## PursuedByBears (Apr 6, 2014)

Probably a pea roast but still funny IMO


----------



## Lea (Apr 8, 2014)

I don't dare post anything close to a spoiler in the other thread. I haven't read all the books yet but is the following true about who Jon's parents are?



Spoiler: Jon's parents



Ned's sister and the old Targaryen King


----------



## strung out (Apr 8, 2014)

Never been revealed. There's plenty of speculation, hints and clues, but at the moment it could be anyone.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 9, 2014)

In the TV show Oberon Martell drops a clanger about Rhaegar that isn't as obviously stated in the books...


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 9, 2014)

dylanredefined said:


> Should I let my 15yr old daughter watch this?  She really wants to watch citing all her friends watch it. Of course. Wife is not to keen and I'm not sure
> The slab of books that compose the series puts me off from getting into it tbh.



Tell her she can watch it. If she reads all the books first...


----------



## dylanredefined (Apr 9, 2014)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> Tell her she can watch it. If she reads all the books first...


	   Oh god no. I got enough "It was nothing like the books "with harry potter ,twilight,Percy Jackson and now divergent
Brought the first 2 series on dvd . I will watch it with her also getting sky back as virgin kindly gave it too me when I suggested I might go elsewhere.
so either we will like it or not. She wants to watch hannibal which I'm pretty sure is not suitable.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 10, 2014)

theres way less sex and profanity in Hannibal but its quite dark in terms of murder and gore.


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 10, 2014)

Lea said:


> I don't dare post anything close to a spoiler in the other thread. I haven't read all the books yet but is the following true about who Jon's parents are?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
No need for spoiler coding in this thread I thought?

EDIT - Just seen you're not up to date, get out of the thread 



Spoiler: Jon



The most widely held theory is that Jon is the son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark, but nothing has been confirmed yet.

The only man alive who knows has yet to make his appearance, Howland Reed


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 10, 2014)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> In the TV show Oberon Martell drops a clanger about Rhaegar that isn't as obviously stated in the books...


 
Which is?


----------



## Gromit (Apr 15, 2014)

Last night's GOT's  episode veered in a few ways from the books to make it more dramatic / graphic / obvious.

I'm a little disappointed as it removed a character from later on that is useful in telling Tyrion's story (to be replaced by someone else or just skipped?). The female dwarf / pig rider. Where were the pigs in fact? Did the animal rights people forbid it?
It spelt everything out instantly rather than the slower reveal. He was so obviously poisoned rather than did he choke and was Cersei casting blame of poison through irrationality?
Tyrion was stood there with the cup in hand dumbly and slowly suspecting the truth and putting himself in a vulnerable position like an idiot. Whereas in the book he is quite quick to catch on and is trying to get the goblet to hide the wrongly damning evidence.


----------



## mango5 (Apr 17, 2014)

The dwarf re-enactment of the battle of 5 kings was completely new, I wonder how they're going to deal with the 'missing' female dwarf and pig later on.  I was a bit disappointed by the Jaime/Bron tutoring, was looking forward to morose Ilyn Payne doing the honours.  I get the need to squeeze things together and mess up the timelines a bit, but Brienne popped up far too much in this episode (S4E2).


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 17, 2014)

the guy playing  Ilyn Payne had terminal cancer  and is  doing a final tour  with his band.   they posible  thought this was better than recasting


----------



## mango5 (Apr 17, 2014)

Aha, makes sense.


----------



## xenon (Apr 17, 2014)

Gromit

It's been a  while since I read them but the pig riding dwarves. That's not until A Dance With Dragons. After Tyrian has escaped to Easteros or somewhere. And ended up being captured by slavers. Where Ser Joro is captured too.


----------



## xenon (Apr 17, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> the guy playing  Ilyn Payne had terminal cancer  and is  doing a final tour  with his band.   they posible  thought this was better than recasting




The guy playing him was Wilko Johnson yep.


----------



## The Octagon (Apr 17, 2014)

xenon said:


> Gromit
> 
> It's been a  while since I read them but the pig riding dwarves. That's not until A Dance With Dragons. After Tyrian has escaped to Easteros or somewhere. And ended up being captured by slavers. Where Ser Joro is captured too.


 
No, he's right, it's Penny and her brother who 'joust' on a dog and a pig at Joffrey's wedding, the brother is later killed by people looking for Tyrion and randomly decapitating dwarves. Penny tries to kill Tyrion in Essos, they meet Ser Jorah and are sold into slavery later on.


----------



## Gromit (Apr 17, 2014)

xenon said:


> Gromit
> 
> It's been a  while since I read them but the pig riding dwarves. That's not until A Dance With Dragons. After Tyrian has escaped to Easteros or somewhere. And ended up being captured by slavers. Where Ser Joro is captured too.



They originally appear at Joffrey's wedding. Then he sees her later whilst on the run. She obviously know who he is because she's seen him in person previously. Some of his actions are then dictated by a desire to protect one of them. That aspect is going to be lost. I guess he'll just be protecting his own neck minus the noble aspect of him looking to protect her (a weak powerless companion who constantly wants to roll over and play the part life has chosen for her upto that point of her life, with Tyrion as her fellow stooge).


----------



## xenon (Apr 17, 2014)

Cheers. I'm going to have to read a recap.


----------



## mango5 (Apr 28, 2014)

So, yeah. The surprise ending. And the Jaime /Brienne slush


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 28, 2014)

Well, TV series is deviating quite drastically from the books now, and IMO really not for the better. Between the massive changes and the added gratuitous rape in the last two shows, for the first time I'm wondering if I want to keep on watching. 

I was pleased that they kept Sir Pounce though  Though think they've shot themselves in the foot with Tommen's casting though-he's easily going to come of age before he's meant to!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 28, 2014)

the last book?


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 28, 2014)

Ser pounce was  alsp aged up it seems


----------



## machine cat (Apr 28, 2014)

Filler episode today.

Although the bit beyond the wall was good.


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 28, 2014)

Isn't he about 8 in the books though? Given the rate if events in the book I wouldn't be surprised if he isn't meant to come of age by the end of the series. In fact if that prophecy of Cersei's is correct, he's probably going to get deaded before the end. 

However, if the actors are going to age 2 years for each book and they've already picked an older actor (is he meant to be 13 in the show?) he'll be ready to rule himself at the start of A Dance with Dragons!


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 28, 2014)

I'm wondering if  they might  drop Coldhands altogether


actually  more likely   he  will rescue   the  three   before jon  turns  up ..


i just   thought  the  end  of  the  tv  show  was him  for a second.


----------



## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 28, 2014)

shouldn't dany have banished ser Jorah by now?


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 28, 2014)

Btw Shippou-Sensei, I saw your post regarding book spoilers on the other thread. Tbf I don't think Olenna and Littlefinger outright admitting their part in the murder is much of a spoiler because whilst it's not explicitly stated in the books, it becomes very bloody obvious. 

One of the previous annoying deviations from the books was Littlefinger's early obvious interest in Sansa's wellbeing in the TV series, just because it takes away the surprise of being rescued by him on the boat. I remember in the books that was one of my genuine "OMG, WTF?!?" moments. This all seemed a bit "meh". But maybe because I'm comparing.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 28, 2014)

It  was't  obvious  to me  at all


only read through the  books  once  but  i  still had  it  up in the air.


intrestingly  G RR M stated that  he  felt  little  finger   was  massivly obvious in intent  in the tv  series  compared to the books


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 28, 2014)

I was quite pleased with myself for guessing the correct murders of John Arryn fairly early on, way before it was confirmed.


----------



## Shippou-Sensei (Apr 28, 2014)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> shouldn't dany have banished ser Jorah by now?



book timeline  yeah  but  the change  of   Ser Barristan   turning up diffrently   changes  that whole bit


----------



## Agent Sparrow (Apr 28, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> intrestingly  G RR M stated that  he  felt  little  finger   was  massivly obvious in intent  in the tv  series  compared to the books


Coming back to this, Littlefinger isn't half the magnificent bastard in the TV show as he is in the books.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 29, 2014)

Shippou-Sensei said:


> intrestingly  G RR M stated that  he  felt  little  finger   was  massivly obvious in intent  in the tv  series  compared to the books



Because so many important things in the books are revealed inside the characters' heads so to speak, they have to flag things up a bit more obviously in the TV series sometimes. 

But Martin himself does overdo certain plot points himself. The number of times he mentions Robert smashing Rhaegar Targaeryen with his warhammer at the Trident, pretty much in those exact words over and over again. Seems a bit silly when so many other key facts are mentioned once, vaguely and in passing, before suddenly becoming really important two and a half books later.


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 29, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Because so many important things in the books are revealed inside the characters' heads so to speak, they have to flag things up a bit more obviously in the TV series sometimes.
> .


Though surely that only applies to the POV characters. Littlefinger was never a POV character, in fact I think it would ruin the character to attempt it. It was a mistake to make Cersei a POV character IMO because her bitterness and vindictiveness is just way over done.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 30, 2014)

So who in the books is the evil dude sent by bolton to be friends with john snow in the tv show??


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 30, 2014)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> So who in the books is the evil dude sent by bolton to be friends with john snow in the tv show??


He's no one afaik. New character.


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## strung out (Apr 30, 2014)

He's a new character, but he was based on Vargo Hoat I think, or at least he took the place of Vargo Hoat in the narrative for the purpose of cutting off Jaime's hand, leading the Brave Companions (Bloody Mummers).

Vargo Hoat wasn't sent north in the books though, he stayed at Harrenhal where he eventually died.


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## Agent Sparrow (Apr 30, 2014)

Sorry yes, as strung out points out his earlier role is covered in the book, but this latter stuff isn't.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 30, 2014)

So the question is whether JonSnow kills him defending Bran in the upcoming set to at Krasters or he hangs around to stab him in the back in series 8 or whatever...


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## strung out (Apr 30, 2014)

Nah, I don't think Jon Snow and Bran are going to meet at all. Coldhands to rescue Bran et al, with Jon to turn up to a blood bath/deserted keep.


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## xenon (Apr 30, 2014)

strung out said:


> He's a new character, but he was based on Vargo Hoat I think, or at least he took the place of Vargo Hoat in the narrative for the purpose of cutting off Jaime's hand, leading the Brave Companions (Bloody Mummers).
> 
> Vargo Hoat wasn't sent north in the books though, he stayed at Harrenhal where he eventually died.




Died horribly, bit by bit at the hands of Ser Gregor.


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## bouncer_the_dog (Apr 30, 2014)

strung out said:


> Nah, I don't think Jon Snow and Bran are going to meet at all. Coldhands to rescue Bran et al, with Jon to turn up to a blood bath/deserted keep.



awesome


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## The Octagon (May 2, 2014)

I seem to recall Cersei intended to send a Kettleblack brother to the wall with the intention of taking Jon out, but can't remember if it actually transpired before her fall from power.

I think it's fairly likely that Locke will either die at the keep or be an antagonist to Jon ongoing, but I also think his natural hatred of 'high borns' could eventually lead to a rehabilitation of sorts and respect for Jon when he becomes LC.

Either way I hope he sticks around, the actor and character are great.


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## The Octagon (May 2, 2014)

Also, this (posted by Shippy in the other thread, possibly spoilers for the books as well as the show, so only read if you don't mind speculation) - http://io9.com/this-accidental-game-of-thrones-spoiler-just-changed-1568796246

If true, and not an error, then the show is definitely going to take us to places not yet seen in some character's book arcs, to make up for a lack of screentime they would have suffered in Season 5.


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## bouncer_the_dog (May 2, 2014)

The show is already spoilering the books.. the King of Winter being the prime example. The way O.Martell talks about Rhaegar T. being a more subtle hint that shores up the L+R=J internet speculation..


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## Agent Sparrow (May 2, 2014)

bouncer_the_dog said:


> The way O.Martell talks about Rhaegar T. being a more subtle hint that shores up the L+R=J internet speculation..


I do sometimes wonder if George R. Martin originally planned that to be the outcome, but because everyone has guessed will change it to be contrary. 

Edit: although maybe because I am in agreement with said theory, I think there's a lot less subtle hints in the books.


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## SpookyFrank (May 4, 2014)

The Octagon said:


> I seem to recall Cersei intended to send a Kettleblack brother to the wall with the intention of taking Jon out, but can't remember if it actually transpired before her fall from power.



Janos Slynt also got sent there by Tyrion, but I don't think he's appeared in the TV show at all. He was one of the candidates to become the new Lord Commander. I'm thinking his role in the story will probably be played by Hoat instead.


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## strung out (May 4, 2014)

Janos Slynt is in the TV show, he's this bloke...







He's mainly been chumming up with Ser Alliser Thorne


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## The Octagon (Apr 2, 2015)

Another sample chapter was released by Martin yesterday - Read it here (if you want to)

Quite an interesting one regarding



Spoiler: character featured



Sansa / Alayne





Spoiler: Details



Looks like this new sassier / seductive Sansa will dovetail nicely with the depiction coming up on Season 5 of the show too


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 24, 2015)

original and still the best


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## Yata (Jun 8, 2016)

extra on IMDB saying he saw "former female main cast member done up as zombie" in a tent at bastardbowl, walked in with his phone and just took a picture without knowing what was going on and got paid 5k to sign an NDA (but then blabbed it on IMDB of all places?) seems like bollocks but there was also a video of what looks like SH


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## strung out (Jun 8, 2016)

So things which haven't yet happened in the TV show, but might still:

* Lady Stoneheart's reintroduction
* Aegon Targaryen (or someone claiming to be him) turning up in the Eastern Kingdoms
* Victarion Greyjoy heading off to woo Daenaerys (I think)

Anyone got anything else?


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## Gromit (Jun 8, 2016)

strung out said:


> So things which haven't yet happened in the TV show, but might still:
> 
> * Lady Stoneheart's reintroduction
> * Aegon Targaryen (or someone claiming to be him) turning up in the Eastern Kingdoms
> ...


There's all the Sam at the citadel stuff that's in the books. Obz on its way. 
Maester intrigue.


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## FNG (Jun 8, 2016)

Minor continuity problem glitch in matrix when jh busted arya out of harrenhal he adopted the apprentice face that he used to poison pate, when. Tv decided to amalgamate jh with the kindly man he was using the jh face again, if he turns up at the citadel what face will he be using and what implications will that have?


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## The Octagon (Jun 8, 2016)

strung out said:


> So things which haven't yet happened in the TV show, but might still:
> 
> * Lady Stoneheart's reintroduction
> * Aegon Targaryen (or someone claiming to be him) turning up in the Eastern Kingdoms
> ...



Too late for the latter two, they'd have mentioned Victarion if he existed in the show (like Willas and Garland Tyrell, who've also been cut to make Loras the sole heir), and Aegon just seems like a giant red herring they've discussed with George Martin and decided to leave out.


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## Orang Utan (Jun 8, 2016)

The Octagon said:


> Too late for the latter two, they'd have mentioned Victarion if he existed in the show (like Willas and Garland Tyrell, who've also been cut to make Loras the sole heir), and Aegon just seems like a giant red herring they've discussed with George Martin and decided to leave out.


Euron just turned up


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 8, 2016)

strung out said:


> So things which haven't yet happened in the TV show, but might still:
> 
> * Lady Stoneheart's reintroduction
> * Aegon Targaryen (or someone claiming to be him) turning up in the Eastern Kingdoms
> ...



In the books I think Euron sends Victarion to acquire Daenerys for him, on telly it seems like he's just gonna go do it himself.

Also that Martell lad who goes all the way to Meereen in order to die pointlessly and do nothing to advance the plot seems to have been cut out of the TV show, more's the pity.


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## FNG (Jun 10, 2016)

i'm just getting to the martell voyage on my read through and oh boy its a slog,no wonder most fans hate those chapters,cant see the show bothering at all with him given how they dropped a bridge on the entire dorne storyline.

Manderlays frey pies has to make the cut,they are doing the ground work making Glover and Umber heels at the moment.
If brienne is heading south it sets up a confrontation with the false hound at saltpans with the real hound in the proximity taking the gendry role, the fight with rorge and biter would make a great choreographic scene


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 12, 2016)

FNG said:


> i'm just getting to the martell voyage on my read through and oh boy its a slog,no wonder most fans hate those chapters,cant see the show bothering at all with him given how they dropped a bridge on the entire dorne storyline.
> 
> Manderlays frey pies has to make the cut,they are doing the ground work making Glover and Umber heels at the moment.
> If brienne is heading south it sets up a confrontation with the false hound at saltpans with the real hound in the proximity taking the gendry role, the fight with rorge and biter would make a great choreographic scene



On the TV show the entire Martell clan is now dead, so prince whatever his name is either never existed or has been killed.


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## FNG (Jun 12, 2016)

They really botched the dorne plot Jamie and bron sneaking into the kaisers garden reminded me of Carry on spying/follow that camel.


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## FNG (Jun 12, 2016)

theres still the sands ready to burst into any scene like the spanish inquisition, whose three main weapons are suprise,a complete disregard for canon,stealth and a big stabby spear...!four...! ad infinitum


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## SpookyFrank (Jun 12, 2016)

FNG said:


> theres still the sands ready to burst into any scene like the spanish inquisition, whose three main weapons are suprise,a complete disregard for canon,stealth and a big stabby spear...!four...! ad infinitum



I'd say their most dangerous weapon is badly written dialogue.


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## Agent Sparrow (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm now not sure I can be bothered reading further books because it's obvious from what has been left out of the TV series what the red herring/filler plots are. As said many of them are the more dull ones anyway. Knowing the outcome will make fuck all difference to the overall story is just going to make them unbearable. 

Mind you it is interesting the things that have been kept in, albeit set up differently or with other characters. I definitely clocked that Brienne and Jaime's stories were being set up to converge again. Also I wonder whether the decision to keep the stone man infection story via Jorah suggests that there's going to be some greater significance to that, other than a bit of world detail and a miserable death.


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