# Tristram Hunt resigns as MP



## killer b (Jan 13, 2017)

Tristram Hunt to resign as Labour MP

looks a bit sus after that guy in cumbria.


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## gawkrodger (Jan 13, 2017)

toodlepip!

Tristram Hunt to quit as MP to become V&A director


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

on yer way tristram 

e2a: he can fuck off from the v&a as well


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## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Didnt fancy the wait to 2025/2030 or the boundary battle in Stoke I guess.


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## J Ed (Jan 13, 2017)

Good riddance scab


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## J Ed (Jan 13, 2017)

Literally crossed a picketline to do a lecture about Marx


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## Orang Utan (Jan 13, 2017)

No one called Tristram should be allowed to be a Labour MP


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## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> No one called Tristram should be allowed to be a Labour MP


Anyone called Tristram is allowed to do whatever they like. Apparently.


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## Lord Camomile (Jan 13, 2017)

I thought it was Jeremy for way too long 

Got all excited


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## JimW (Jan 13, 2017)




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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jan 13, 2017)

Has he finally worked out that Tories traditionally stand as MPs for the Conservatives and not Labour?


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## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> on yer way tristram
> 
> e2a: he can fuck off from the v&a as well



Fortunately they dont have mandatory reselection there.


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## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Ukip will be getting all excited ,Nuttall to stand ?.No doubt Momentum will flood in to save the day.

Could be another one for May 4.Tricky again for Corbyn and for the other two Labour mps in Stoke as it could throw a real competitor into the selections post boundary changes .3 into 2 wont go.


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## Wilf (Jan 13, 2017)

This is just about as bad a prospect as Copeland for Labour. Only chance of keeping it will be if ukip and Tories end up with something like an even split of the non-Labour vote.  If Labour are canny though they'll have a go at trying a 'populist' candidate.  No idea what the politics of the Stoke Party are (or do they still parachute candidates in for by-elections?).


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Are they really going to wait until May 4th for these by-elections?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Literally crossed a picketline to do a lecture about Marx



Urban myth that it was about Marx, but he's still a scab.

Anyway, called it (although I admit an unfair advantage in that respect).

Interesting times to come around here. The world and his wife will be scrambling to decide whether to put in now.


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## Wilf (Jan 13, 2017)

Maybe Labour will go with another right wing historian...


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Maybe Labour will go with another right wing historian...



One of Trissy's crowning achievements was introducing the Stoke Literary Festival. Guest star, David Starkey. No joke'


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## billy_bob (Jan 13, 2017)

Don't let the door hit your valet's arse on the way out, you big-faced Tory prick.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

Orang Utan said:


> No one called Tristram should be allowed to be a Labour MP


no one called tristram should be allowed to be a museum director.


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## Wilf (Jan 13, 2017)

As I'm not exactly into 'Parliamentary Cretinism' I'm an odd to be pissed off when MPs resign, but it still fucking annoys me.  It's that despite all the shite they come out with about it being an honour to represent constituency X, they're happy to fuck off when they see there's no chance of a cabinet post in the next decade or a wheelbarrow of money comes along.  There's also the cost of by-elections (somebody said it was in the 10s of thousands on the Copeland thread I think).


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

The Independent touting the line



> The resignation is the second by a moderate Labour MP...



whilst the gruan can tell us his new job at the V&A comes with a salary of £140,000

pass the sick bag.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> no one called tristram should be allowed to be a museum director.




Sadly, at the V & A especially, there's a strong public school tradition at the highest levels  ... and at a fair few other big musuems also.

The German who resigned his V & A directorship recently** was an aberration 

**No doubt his main plan was to trigger an interesting by-election for a laugh


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Cant find Herr Ex-Direktor's name** just now ... will soon

Meanwhile, here's the V&A's statement on the new boss

**ETA : It was Martin Roth


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Wilf said:


> As I'm not exactly into 'Parliamentary Cretinism' I'm an odd to be pissed off when MPs resign, but it still fucking annoys me.  It's that despite all the shite they come out with about it being an honour to represent constituency X, they're happy to fuck off when they see there's no chance of a cabinet post in the next decade or a wheelbarrow of money comes along.  There's also the cost of by-elections (somebody said it was in the 10s of thousands on the Copeland thread I think).



Agreeing 100%.

Also, I reckon there should be strict** LP rules about triggering by-elections unnecessarily (ie for any other reason whatsoever than DEATH ... and then only sudden/unexpected ... )

**A former Labour MP who provoked a needless by-election, didn't seem to be aware of the new Party Rules ...


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Cant find Herr Ex-Direktor's name** just now ... will soon
> 
> Meanwhile, here's the V&A's statement on the new boss
> 
> **ETA : It was Martin Roth



surely once someone has a phd no one gives a fuck whether they got a first or a third in their first degree. 

apart from the v&a it seems.


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

Not that I particularly have high hopes for the Labour party but they are better off without him.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Independent said:
			
		

> The resignation is the second by an extremist Labour MP...



Corrected for them ...


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)




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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Well spotted teqniq .... I've got a faint memory of that (2011) story, but I'd completely forgotten it ..... when I get a chance, I'm going to speak to my musem contact and get him find out whether charging plans might _really_ be on the horizon. Now!

It's not a certainty is my guess. The current model of free general entry but paid for (and sponsored  ) big exhibitions seems to keep the visitor numbers  pretty healthy, the latest I knew.

Hunt would also have to either persuade directors of other big free museums to charge as well, or break ranks himself, which would never be a good look, V & A image-wise ...


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

William of Walworth not me, luckily it was in my Twitter feed as it was retweeted by the person below who I follow.


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## Lazy Llama (Jan 13, 2017)

<threads merged>


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## Fez909 (Jan 13, 2017)

I don't think it would be up to Hunt to implement fees or not, would it? 

I thought Labour were the ones who abolished fees for museusm and such, making it a government/law decision, not the whims of some posh cunt.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

I suppose a follow-on question from this is how on earth he got the V&A job - after all, he has zero experience of running (or even helping to run) a museum or a similar institution, and the field in which the V&A operates is not one in which he has that much academic experience (or interest, it seems) either.  The other candidates who were mooted for the job (that the Guardian mentions in its article) are all vastly more qualified for the role.  Perhaps Theresa did rather more than just "confirm" his appointment?

edit:  as a comparison, here is a list of former Directors


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> I suppose a follow-on question from this is how on earth he got the V&A job - after all, he has zero experience of running (or even helping to run) a museum or a similar institution, and the field in which the V&A operates is not one in which he has that much academic experience (or interest, it seems) either.  The other candidates who were mooted for the job (that the Guardian mentions in its article) are all vastly more qualified for the role.  Perhaps Theresa did rather more than just "confirm" his appointment?
> 
> edit:  as a comparison, here is a list of former Directors


from the guardian article:

the "2010 piece" was in fact written in er 2011


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> from the guardian article:
> View attachment 98755
> the "2010 piece" was in fact written in er 2011



Perhaps he will revisit that, given that the Potteries Museum is free to visit now.


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## Chilli.s (Jan 13, 2017)

Yeah good riddance, in it for himself, lets everybody down, politics/democracy at its worst. Mps should face some sanction if they fail to complete their term in office representing the people they are supposed to serve.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

When did the museum ever charge to get in? Maybe when the Staffordshire Hoard was here? It's been free every time I've been. They ask for a voluntary donation iirc (it's been a while).


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> I suppose a follow-on question from this is how on earth he got the V&A job - after all, he has zero experience of running (or even helping to run) a museum or a similar institution, and the field in which the V&A operates is not one in which he has that much academic experience (or interest, it seems) either.  The other candidates who were mooted for the job (that the Guardian mentions in its article) are all vastly more qualified for the role.  Perhaps Theresa did rather more than just "confirm" his appointment?
> 
> edit:  as a comparison, here is a list of former Directors


Establishment connections obvs. Being as how he is very much part of it I would surmise, what with the Cambridge degree and a name like that.


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## Dogsauce (Jan 13, 2017)

It's UKIPs to take, isn't it? The labour-hating Tory vote will tactically go to them, the BBC etc. will talk it up because they'll see it as an 'interesting story' (the Labour/UKIP showdown has been eagerly awaited for years), the Guardian etc. will be quietly cheering them on so as to give Corbyn a bloody nose.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Establishment connections obvs. Being as how he is very much part of it I would surmise, what with the Cambridge degree and a name like that.



I am not sure it can be attributed to that - if you look at the list of former directors there, or indeed the heads of the other major London museums, there are very few of them (if any) who had zero experience of running / working at a senior level in museums when they were appointed.   You can't even say that his academic study is that relevant.


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> I am not sure it can be attributed to that - if you look at the list of former directors there, or indeed the heads of the other major London museums, there are very few of them (if any) who had zero experience of running / working at a senior level in museums when they were appointed.   You can't even say that his academic study is that relevant.


Well that's kinda made my case. Totally unsuited toff gets plum job he's not even remotely qualified for.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> It's UKIPs to take, isn't it? The labour-hating Tory vote will tactically go to them, the BBC etc. will talk it up because they'll see it as an 'interesting story' (the Labour/UKIP showdown has been eagerly awaited for years), the Guardian etc. will be quietly cheering them on so as to give Corbyn a bloody nose.



UKIP is collapsing though.

The peculiarities of the area will come into play. I expect the City Independents may run, maybe Gary Elsby (who must be salivating right now), who was in the news when Trissy was parachuted in, because his nose was put out of joint and he left the party. A lot of people who hate parachuting and hate Tristram and hate Blair spoke out on the side of Elsby without realising, of course, that he's a massive bell end and would have been a terrible MP, but specifics are often ignored at times like this, which is understandable.

The internal race for Labour nominee will be interesting. Already lots of potential local names floating around.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2017)

What is going to be fascinating is who is selected to fight this seat (and also Cumbria) by Labour. 

If they choose corbynista candidates and they lose two heartland seats then all bets off. I don't know much about Cumbria but UKIP polled 22.7% at the last election and will definitely fancy a punt at Stoke.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Well that's kinda made my case. Totally unsuited toff gets plum job he's not even remotely qualified for.



I know that was what you were saying - my point was that history of that job (even in times when the establishment was much stronger than it is now) is not replete with people like him getting that job; in fact its probably unique for someone with such an utter lack of experience to get it.


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## Smokeandsteam (Jan 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> UKIP is collapsing though.
> 
> It is polling 12% natiionally, it has a base in the city and it's a byelection.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> I am not sure it can be attributed to that - if you look at the list of former directors there, or indeed the heads of the other major London museums, there are very few of them (if any) who had zero experience of running / working at a senior level in museums when they were appointed.   You can't even say that his academic study is that relevant.


his academic study is by its nature solitary: he seems to me to have fuck all experience managing people. you wouldn't want a librarian in charge of a library with no experience of people management nor of attracting funding etc - nor of overseeing the organisation of large-scale events like exhibitions. nor of conservation for that matter.


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## teqniq (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> I know that was what you were saying - my point was that history of that job (even in times when the establishment was much stronger than it is now) is not replete with people like him getting that job; in fact its probably unique for someone with such an utter lack of experience to get it.


In the grand old tradition of taking the piss.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> his academic study is by its nature solitary: he seems to me to have fuck all experience managing people. you wouldn't want a librarian in charge of a library with no experience of people management nor of attracting funding etc - nor of overseeing the organisation of large-scale events like exhibitions. nor of conservation for that matter.



Indeed.


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## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

Malcolm blames Jeremy.


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## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Is it refreshing that some mps recognise there is more to life than politics or are these moderate types lacking in moral fibre, weak and feeble -hardly Gaitskell- will fight fight and fight again etc

Back to some issues.Currently

1.Will jezzas preferred candidate be selected and elected in Copeland .

2.Ditto Stoke 

3.And just to be thought about in the longer term -if Labour were to lose both what should the left do next-see comments by Abbott,Livingstone etc .


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

Already two lefties declared they're seeking selection for Labour.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

That the seat is to be abolished in the boundary review must be taken into consideration, as it will effect who decides to put themselves forward, and those who do not.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

Lib Dem odds have just been slashed.


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## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2017)

So Tristram Hunt does a Mensch. How unsurprising of the petulant self-serving cunt.


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## kebabking (Jan 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Already two lefties declared they're seeking selection for Labour.



_fairly_ Lefties - both, assuming you're talking about Copeland, are fervantly pro-nuclear, both power and weapons. they would be unlikely to roll over on those issues to make the sainted one happy.

Stoke is going to come down to the issue (perception?) of immigration - if a lefty can square the circle they stand a very good chance, if they can't then they are fucked.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

I'm talking about Stoke. One is in Red Labour.


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## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

Tristram Hunt tells Oxbridge Labour students that 'the top 1 per cent' must lead Labour again


> The way you serve the Corbyn leadership is to be as dissenting and creative as possible… You are the top one per cent. The Labour Party is in the shit. It is your job and your responsibility to take leadership going forward.



Not a great loss.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 13, 2017)

The funniest bit is him moaning about not getting to put his big ideas into practice - which basically were 'more flag flying'. 

The Labour party's gain is the V&A's loss.


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## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Urban myth that it was about Marx, but he's still


It was part of his teaching course on  Marx, Engels and the making of Marxism.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Tristram Hunt tells Oxbridge Labour students that 'the top 1 per cent' must lead Labour again
> 
> 
> Not a great loss.


yeh.

cos he's clearly leaving public life. 

newsflash: he's not! he's taking over the directorship of an important cultural institution on a whopping great salary.

twat.


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## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

I meant "not a great loss to the HoC".

Late book returns got you cranky, Rowena?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> I meant "not a great loss to the HoC".


why not say what you mean to start off with?



> Late book returns got you cranky, Rowena?


no, oswald.


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

How many threads are you two planning on pissing over?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

hunt's assumption of the v&a directorship doubtless means more stories like this MA defends IWM’s disposal of films, books, pamphlets and periodicals | Museums Association


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## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub
Take a look at the posts I made. I was quietly posting on-topic anout Tristram Hunt till Pickman began stalking my posts again.


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## emanymton (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> How many threads are you two planning on pissing over?


Lets hope Trump doesn't hear about it.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> How many threads are you two planning on pissing over?


we're not in cahoots.

next.

e2a: join in: the more the merrier.


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2017)

kebabking said:


> _fairly_ Lefties - both, assuming you're talking about Copeland, are fervantly pro-nuclear, both power and weapons. they would be unlikely to roll over on those issues to make the sainted one happy.


You can't be anti-nuclear in Cumbria - the only jobs up there are at BNFL.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> You can't be anti-nuclear in Cumbria - the only jobs up there are at BNFL.


not so. there are also posts at grasmere, at wordsworth's former home.


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> You can't be anti-nuclear in Cumbria - the only jobs up there are at BNFL.



wot apart from the ones building nuclear subs for BAe?


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## kebabking (Jan 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> You can't be anti-nuclear in Cumbria - the only jobs up there are at BNFL.



oh i know that - and of course while Barrow isn't in the constituancy, its close enough and big enough that a 'problem' with building the successor boats would have a big impact on Copeland.

i wonder if Corbyn will try and go for a kind of federal system - so he'd prefer, obviously, MP's who are broadly supportive of him and his wider programme, but he'd allow them to be free to disgree and vote against on specific issues that are critical in their constituancy? so in Cumbria it might be over nuclear, and in Stoke it might be on immigration...


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## killer b (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> not so. there are also posts at grasmere, at wordsworth's former home.


I doubt there'll be any anti-wordsworth candidates in the mix either


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

kebabking said:


> oh i know that - and of course while Barrow isn't in the constituancy, its close enough and big enough that a 'problem' with building the successor boats would have a big impact on Copeland.
> 
> i wonder if Corbyn will try and go for a kind of federal system - so he'd prefer, obviously, MP's who are broadly supportive of him and his wider programme, but he'd allow them to be free to disgree and vote against on specific issues that are critical in their constituancy? so in Cumbria it might be over nuclear, and in Stoke it might be on immigration...



Perhaps, though if he just managed to get rid of central interference in candidate selection (which is after all how the worst of the PLP got their safe seats) then he has won anyway.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

"It isn't that much of a risk", proclaims the Guardian.


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> Perhaps, though if he just managed to get rid of central interference in candidate selection (which is after all how the worst of the PLP got their safe seats) then he has won anyway.



This is why Labour is lost.  Its focus is on the internal battles about shaping the Labour party, rather than shaping the country.


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## cantsin (Jan 13, 2017)

After this weeks 'repositioning' push, Hunt resignation a good chance for Corbo 2.0 to encourage CLP to select more Lexit orientated candidate in a solidly Leave constit ?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> "It isn't that much of a risk", proclaims the Guardian.


even for the guardian that article's shit

no mention of his (in)ability to lead a large organisation 

no mention of his (lack of) knowledge about art history 

at least appointing someone to the national gallery who was editor of the burlington magazine was appointing someone who had some vague inkling about fine art and management.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> This is why Labour is lost.  Its focus is on the internal battles about shaping the Labour party, rather than shaping the country.



They can't do the second without sorting the first out, though.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> even for the guardian that article's shit



The bit about Gregory Doran is my favourite:



> The question of big organisation management experience is not one generally asked in other arts areas. Rufus Norris is director of the National Theatre and Gregory Doran is director of the Royal Shakespeare Company. Both are leaders steeped in the creative process. *Doran does not even have a computer in his office.*


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

On Hunt as V & A director :




			
				agricola said:
			
		

> "It isn't that much of a risk", proclaims the Guardian.



The supposed parallel with Neil McGregor is nonsense. At least McGregor's previous editing of the Burlington Magazine meant he had a scholarly background in art history and cultural history research -- it's a highly academic magazine with footnotes galore attached to the major articles. A few of the articles he wrote himself.

Hunt has no background at all in art history, or much if anything that's V & A relevant. It's possible, I suppose, that his studies took him to the Great Exhibition (foundation stone of the V & A's early collections).

But his main field of history is quite a distance away.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> On Hunt as V & A director :
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Empire and elephants: Tristram Hunt on how the Victorians sculpted for Britain

i bet that a glance at the catalogue for the exhibition would reveal certain er similarities and correspondences between the articles within, and hunt's text in the guardian piece.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

That Guardian article does partly contradict what I said above, at least a bit, I have to admit ... 

Should have checked before posting


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> They can't do the second without sorting the first out, though.



If they lose both by-elections, then there will be a repeat of the vote of no confidence


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> That Guardian article does partly contradict what I said above, at least a bit, I have to admit ...
> 
> Should have checked before posting


tbh i don't think it does entirely. it's one thing to plagiarise write a review of an exhibition for a newspaper, and quite another to have the actual expertise which allows you to speak with authority on matters artistick: would he be be so conversant, for example, with textiles from central asia or georgian china?


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> If they lose both by-elections, then there will be a repeat of the vote of no confidence


and it'll be goodbye to the 2025 election as well then, if that's not cancelled due to wartime.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> That Guardian article does partly contradict what I said above, at least a bit, I have to admit ...
> 
> Should have checked before posting



Not really, millions of people go to the Tate every year (and see better exhibitions than that was, like that Hogarth one some years ago) and yet don't get appointed as Director of the V&A on the back of it.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

agricola said:


> Not really, millions of people go to the Tate every year (and see better exhibitions than that was, like that Hogarth one some years ago) and yet don't get appointed as Director of the V&A on the back of it.


anyone who has studied victorian culture at undergraduate or taught postgraduate level would be able to write a review like hunt's. it's certainly nothing special.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 13, 2017)

Oh, the main point that there are far better candidates with much more relevant experience definitely stands.


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> and it'll be goodbye to the 2025 election as well then, if that's not cancelled due to wartime.


there are over 80 Labour MP's with a smaller majority than Hunt had


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> there are over 80 Labour MP's with a smaller majority than Hunt had


not sure of the relevance of that, i mean that the incessant infighting in the labour party has almost certainly already cost them the next election and we're now looking to see what manner of defeat they'll get in 2025.


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## agricola (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> there are over 80 Labour MP's with a smaller majority than Hunt had



are there that many PR / "leader" jobs that don't require relevant experience out there?


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## gosub (Jan 13, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> not sure of the relevance of that, i mean that the incessant infighting in the labour party has almost certainly already cost them the next election and we're now looking to see what manner of defeat they'll get in 2025.



means theres some very motivated people for a change in direction. But yep, if Corbyn stood his ground again , it would be a death spiral past 2025.

2020 isn't a done deal, room for some major bust ups yet.


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## cantsin (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> This is why Labour is lost.  Its focus is on the internal battles about shaping the Labour party, rather than shaping the country.



what a load of old gubbins - JC ( rightly or wrongly) not willing at this stage to try and speed up any change in the make up of the PLP due to risk of of chaos ( from the PLP side ), but the grassroots have to see some reflection of their politics in the PLP over time, or they're going to leave - its going to take time to sort itself, but has to happen -  its just silly to claim the Party should be 'shaping the country', has to sort itself out, and has v little input re; shaping the country at this stage, other than JC playing his part  in the  usual ritualised punch n judy show that the meejah demand.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

gosub said:


> means theres some very motivated people for a change in direction. But yep, if Corbyn stood his ground again , it would be a death spiral past 2025.
> 
> 2020 isn't a done deal, room for some major bust ups yet.


even theresa may's best efforts unlikely to lead to a labour victory


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## cantsin (Jan 13, 2017)

wouldn't be surprised if the timing of all this was linked to looming 'quandaries' re; the education of his kids - as Shad Educ., he was notoriously cagey about private vs state choices for his own kids in the future, and even a shameless goon like him was going to stuggle with the deluge of hypocrisy accusations when the inevitable decision came  ( "putting family first, blah blah ") .

Tristram Hunt won't 'rule out' private school for his children


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## Smangus (Jan 13, 2017)

He can do what he likes with the v&a , the main thing is he's out of parliament, that's got to be a good thing.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

Smangus said:


> He can do what he likes with the v&a , the main thing is he's out of parliament, that's got to be a good thing.


not for the v&A


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

It's interesting he used term being impartial in his new job. He has no politics, so it won't be difficult.


----------



## killer b (Jan 13, 2017)

He certainly does have politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> He certainly does have politics.


just shit ones


----------



## killer b (Jan 13, 2017)

Of course. we need to get away from the idea that Hunt and his ilk are operating without a strong ideological framework though - they are, absolutely.


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

Tristram Hunt may bring great Victorian ambition back to the V&A


> For the message is clear enough that he is leaving Corbyn’s ghost train for a glamorous top job at one of the best museums in the world. He’ll be musing over which William Morris wallpaper to choose for his office while former comrades are reading their latest batch of Twitter abuse and awaiting the reselection meeting.



So after the swipe at Corbyn from on high, the loathsome waxes lyrical about jolly old Victorian England



> Victorians used the arts and education to try to create cohesive communities,





> You can see why Hunt, one of today’s most enthusiastic champions of the energy of the Victorian age, is in heaven here.





> this could be a second great Victorian age for the V&A.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Go to twitter.


----------



## Sprocket. (Jan 13, 2017)

All in all probably his best day's work he has ever done for Labour.


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Go to twitter.



Whose twitter?
What will I find there?
Can't you just post it here?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> Of course. we need to get away from the idea that Hunt and his ilk are operating without a strong ideological framework though - they are, absolutely.



Hunt's main priority is himself and his career. He may have ended up in the camp of those working against Corbyn, but he has no strong ideological drive to turn the Labour Party into this or that beyond his own career interests. Of course, 'everything is political', but I'm talking about his specific aims in a different sense.

My comment about 'no politics' is based on his day-to-day operating as an MP, where he displayed no ideological drive in the sense many would expect an MP to have, but rather was a bumbling fool who didn't really know what he wanted, and showed little understanding of how internal Labour Party politics worked (certainly at a local level, and nationally too -- and I mean in terms of interests and who controls how things get done, the cynical stuff that makes up party political reality), and little interest in wanting to understand.

During the coup, the media seemed to position him as some sort of leading light in it all, but he doesn't have the nous to be able to strategise in the way they supposed he was doing.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 13, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> the Guardian etc. will be quietly cheering them on so as to give Corbyn a bloody nose.


thinly vieled relish rather than quiet cheering I think.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Whose twitter?
> What will I find there?
> Can't you just post it here?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 13, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> Tristram Hunt may bring great Victorian ambition back to the V&A
> 
> 
> So after the swipe at Corbyn from on high, the loathsome waxes lyrical about jolly old Victorian England


you think using art and education in an attempt to create cohesive communities is a bad idea, i see.

do you know much about william morris or the victorian age?


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Some betting on Libdems at 50/1.


----------



## hot air baboon (Jan 13, 2017)

...oh its the _museum_ is it....I thought he might be making a move into the licensed trade....


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 13, 2017)

Close to Mandelson who prob still fancies himself as a Labour leader talent spotter.Like milord,and the milibands and blair he ended up representing a seat most unlike him.

He will have a better and happier life in London with his family doing something he enjoys and is good at.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Some betting on Libdems at 50/1.


Evidence?


----------



## brogdale (Jan 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Evidence?


Smithson, no doubt.

5's now.


----------



## TheHoodedClaw (Jan 13, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Evidence?





The odds are way in now, so most likely money been piled* on

* it wouldn't have been _piled_ on to move the odds I suspect


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

UKIP the only potential there. I think this is a safe labour win around the same % on obv lower turnout. Not really a prob for corbyn.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

From 50s to 5s, doesn't sound like much has been laid. A grand might shift that.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 13, 2017)

Never mind the betting, the idea the lib-dems will win is beyond sickness and illogic itself.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jan 14, 2017)

killer b said:


> Tristram Hunt to resign as Labour MP
> 
> looks a bit sus after that guy in cumbria.



Nah he just knows two things:

Corbyn isn't going anywhere which means he can never be leader due to the membership
He'll probably lose to UKIP at the next election anyway
He's young, connected and well spoken which means he'll have a high flying career outside politics and if one day Project Corbyn dies on it's ass and the membership come to their senses he can always appeal to a new leader for a safe seat parachute...


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 14, 2017)

gosub said:


> there will be a repeat of the vote of no confidence



and



gosub said:


> means theres some very motivated people for a change in direction....room for some major bust ups yet.



and yet



gosub said:


> This is why Labour is lost.  Its focus is on the internal battles



So Labour under Corbyn is lost but if it isn't we'll keep trying till it is.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2017)

You need help to stop seeing we everywhere.

What have you done to support corbyn and labour?


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> You need help to stop seeing we everywhere.



I think it is pefectly clear what the personal pronounn was meant to convey. You don't have to pick up where Pickman's model left off.



butchersapron said:


> What have you done to support corbyn and labour?



I am not at inclined to divulge my political activities or lack thereof to you or other members of this board at this stage, thank you very much.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> I think it is pefectly clear what the personal pronounn was meant to convey. You don't have to pick up where Pickman's model left off.
> 
> 
> 
> I am not at inclined to divulge my political activities or lack thereof to you or other members of this board at this stage, thank you very much.


Yes, your functional paranoia was clear to see.

You don't do anything except display that self serving paranoia on the internet.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2017)

Are you even in the labour party?


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Are you even in the labour party?



I'm not. (think you know that). They are very much a token effort locally.  Still want an effective opposition though, which is 'gubbins' apparently.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 14, 2017)

gosub said:


> I'm not. (think you know that). They are very much a token effort locally.  Still want an effective opposition though, which is 'gubbins' apparently.


I mean this witchfinder general, not you. The one utterly reliant on the existence of blairites.


----------



## gosub (Jan 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> I mean this witchfinder general, not you. The one utterly reliant on the existence of blairites.



Knew that. Just helping him reappraise the "we everywhere"


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 14, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> UKIP the only potential there. I think this is a safe labour win around the same % on obv lower turnout. Not really a prob for corbyn.



Seeing as they have held it since the 1950s and are in opposition in theory should be a piece of piss. In practice though they have to fudge the EU question which could mean losing some votes to LD and UKIP.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2017)

mikey mikey said:


> I am not at inclined to divulge my political activities or lack thereof to you or other members of this board at this stage, thank you very much.


yeh everyone else should but yours must remain veiled in secrecy, probably because they don't exist.

Never mind seeing we everywhere, you should stop posting wee everywhere


----------



## vanya (Jan 14, 2017)

Goodbye to Tristram 

All That Is Solid ...: Goodbye to Tristram


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 15, 2017)

Left and Right unite -Hunt is a disgrace.


Tristram Hunt is a disgrace «  Labour Uncut


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 15, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> Are you even in the labour party?










butchersapron said:


> I mean this witchfinder general, not you.


Says the person asking me what I am or am not a member of and what political activities I get up to, as if that somoehow bore any relevance to anything.



butchersapron said:


> The one utterly reliant on the existence of blairites.


You mean you doubt their existence?

Anyway, that article from the Indie I posted earlier describes Jeremy so:







gosub said:


> Knew that. Just helping him reappraise the "we everywhere"



When did I use the phrase "we everywhere"?


----------



## Chilli.s (Jan 15, 2017)

Mp s should be made to take what is actually public service bit more seriously, you cant ring up and stop going half way through jury service just because you got an offer you couldn't refuse.

Wtf are we paying them for.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 15, 2017)

Chilli.s said:


> Mp s should be made to take what is actually public service bit more seriously, you cant ring up and stop going half way through jury service just because you got an offer you couldn't refuse.
> 
> Wtf are we paying them for.



For being middle class, careerist knobshines.

HTH.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

There are plenty of MPs for whom the title Blairite is just easy pigeonholing with no substance other than an axe to grind, but for Tristram it's true. He followed the Blairite line. When he made his somewhat laughable attempt to stand for leader, he was - if you think about it in such terms - next to Liz Kendall on the spectrum, and Kendall is also another who you can rightly call a Blairite. There is still a core of Blairites in the PLP, but they have next to no power now, and there are plenty of others who have more of a voice. It's not especially useful to use the term Blairite because it doesn't particularly reflect what this Corbyn moment (or movement, or whatever the heck it is) is meant to be against, which is more broadly the liberal tendency, of which there are many MPs in many different camps that may or may not come with a fancy ex-leader's moniker to describe them.


----------



## gosub (Jan 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> There are plenty of MPs for whom the title Blairite is just easy pigeonholing with no substance other than an axe to grind, but for Tristram it's true. He followed the Blairite line. When he made his somewhat laughable attempt to stand for leader, he was - if you think about it in such terms - next to Liz Kendall on the spectrum, and Kendall is also another who you can rightly call a Blairite. There is still a core of Blairites in the PLP, but they have next to no power now, and there are plenty of others who have more of a voice. It's not especially useful to use the term Blairite because it doesn't particularly reflect what this Corbyn moment (or movement, or whatever the heck it is) is meant to be against, which is more broadly the liberal tendency, of which there are many MPs in many different camps that may or may not come with a fancy ex-leader's moniker to describe them.



will be interesting to see who Labour select....a Blairite secured 39.3% of the vote in 2015...


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

Well, it won't be a Blairite. Just how to the left they will be remains to be seen. There are a few decent-ish local names tentatively considering throwing their hats in the ring at the moment. Since that's the bit I know about, what I'm most interested in is who from outside Stoke will be putting themselves forward, and whether any of them will have NEC or leader's backing. Unless it's someone particularly strong, I think this time it'll go to a local person - if for no other reason than Hunt's parachuting being the big story it was last time and earning a lot of animosity.


----------



## gosub (Jan 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Well, it won't be a Blairite. Just how to the left they will be remains to be seen. There are a few decent-ish local names tentatively considering throwing their hats in the ring at the moment. Since that's the bit I know about, what I'm most interested in is who from outside Stoke will be putting themselves forward, and whether any of them will have NEC or leader's backing. Unless it's someone particularly strong, I think this time it'll go to a local person - if for no other reason than Hunt's parachuting being the big story it was last time and earning a lot of animosity.



Agree, but that logic paints to a corner if vote share falls


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

Turnout will be even lower than 2015 GE because it historically is for a by-election, and as we all know turnout here in the GE was abysmal. Vote share for Labour is up in the air at the moment. Locally, Labour people believe they can win it, but aren't under any illusions that it's a foregone conclusion - as is wise.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

vanya said:


> Goodbye to Tristram
> 
> All That Is Solid ...: Goodbye to Tristram



A few names of local people expected to stand for selection will probably be on here later.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Well, it won't be a Blairite. Just how to the left they will be remains to be seen. There are a few decent-ish local names tentatively considering throwing their hats in the ring at the moment. Since that's the bit I know about, what I'm most interested in is who from outside Stoke will be putting themselves forward, and whether any of them will have NEC or leader's backing. Unless it's someone particularly strong, I think this time it'll go to a local person - if for no other reason than Hunt's parachuting being the big story it was last time and earning a lot of animosity.



someone with Lexit leanings might be useful /interesting, if available / up for it / cut out it for it


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 15, 2017)

There's a Red Labour Corbyn supporter planning on standing - jolly nice bloke he is too - but I don't know his feelings re Brexit/Lexit. I can with some confidence say the person who wins the nomination won't be of the Lexit variety. But what do I know? Politics is really weird at the moment.


----------



## Zabo (Jan 15, 2017)

Never mind the politics. He's fulfilling his secret desire to be the curator of Thatcher's wardrobe. To describe his lifelong lust for Thatcher would be too much for Urban's readers.

What he will sniff first I shall leave to your imagination.

The flowers and the power: Thatcher's outfits join V&A collection


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 16, 2017)

All That Is Solid ...: A Political Guide to Stoke-on-Trent Central

A little bit on the politics in the city, as well as a few names of some of those standing (or likely to stand) for selection.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jan 16, 2017)

As a bare minimum, he should be told to pay back the wages he's taken this term. In capitalist terms, he's broken his contract to go to a better-paid job.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 16, 2017)

cantsin said:


> someone with Lexit leanings might be useful /interesting, if available / up for it / cut out it for it


Stanley Matthews?


----------



## mikey mikey (Jan 16, 2017)

Martin Rowson met Tristram Hunt back in 1997


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 16, 2017)

Apart from Nye and Brown, every other person in  that fascinating story of upper class socialist life is private school and/or oxbridge.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2017)

I guess this will be the official by-election thread. So here's some crystal balling about how the parties are placed and what their fortunes might hold: All That Is Solid ...: Previewing the Stoke-on-Trent Central By-Election


----------



## Wilf (Jan 18, 2017)

butchersapron said:


> UKIP the only potential there. I think this is a safe labour win around the same % on obv lower turnout. Not really a prob for corbyn.


Wonder why you think that?  On the face of it it's got all the components of a ukip win.  Ukip's biggest problem is whether they got their mojo back and find a role after Brexit - that _might_ be enough for Labour to hang on (or perhaps if the brexity ukip vote gets split between ukip and the Tories). But in terms of people being pissed off with Labour/politicians, Stoke looks like a good ukip prospect.  Admittedly, after the last 12 months I should have given up trying to predict anything...

Edit: one thing against ukip winning is that, of course, they usually _don't win_.  Carswell is different in some ways being a sitting MP/defector.  Heywood and Middleton was close (600 votes) but I have a feeling Labour may be more vulnerable in Stoke. The town (6 towns, I suppose) had a major flirtation with the BNP, which doesn't map onto ukip voting, but does show a willingness to desert Labour.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 18, 2017)

Reports that Nuttall will run.


Ukip leader Paul Nuttall set to run in Stoke Central by-election after Labour's Tristram Hunt quit

Ukip goes all in.

With the tories becoming ukip nuttall has to win this or it could be a slow death


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2017)

Considering the thing that pissed off most people about Hunt was that he was an outsider parachuted in, this might not be the win for UKIP they think it is.

His presence would motivate people who hate UKIP to come out and vote more strongly than if it was some nobody. And in the meantime on the doorstep it can be hammered home that he's being parachuted in in a cynical way to bolster his career just as Hunt was, while Labour stand a local candidate.


----------



## cantsin (Jan 18, 2017)

its tight-ish according to the  bookies :

By-election winner
Labour
4/5
UKIP
2/1
Liberal Democrats
7/1
Conservatives
10/1


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 18, 2017)

Labour selection timetable:

* application deadline: Monday 10am
* longlisted interviews: Tuesday
* shortlist selection all members vote: Wednesday evening

Members who joined before 13th July 2016 are eligible to vote (there has always been that 6 month rule, so it's nothing new).


----------



## billy_bob (Jan 19, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Considering the thing that pissed off most people about Hunt was that he was an outsider parachuted in, this might not be the win for UKIP they think it is.
> 
> His presence would motivate people who hate UKIP to come out and vote more strongly than if it was some nobody. And in the meantime on the doorstep it can be hammered home that he's being parachuted in in a cynical way to bolster his career just as Hunt was, while Labour stand a local candidate.



That should make perfect sense, but the last few years' evidence don't necessarily support sense winning the day...

UKIP have done quite well on the 'anti-establishment' ticket even though, in the person of Farage at least, they're clearly anything but. And I think when people complain about 'outsiders parachuted in', what's really pissing them off is the arrogance of the parachuting, the taking-it-for-granted-you'll-vote-for-us of someone being foisted on them just because he/she happens to suit the parliamentary/national party, the emotional and political distance between them and the candidate, rather than necessarily that he/she physically doesn't come from down the road.

I think people have got so comfortable with cognitive dissonance in their voting behaviour now that plenty will be happy to vote for a non-local UKIP candidate over a local Labour candidate _still _on the basis that the UKIP is more in touch with local concerns.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2017)

I wonder if May's Brexit announcements this week will have an effect on UKIP's fortunes? They're not needed now, are they? The kippers have got their Brexit, they've got their end to free movement, they've got the hardest of hard Brexits... it's difficult to see what their message is now. Especially since Corbs has said today he'll whip the PLP to vote to trigger A50.

Anyway, a bit weird that so many in the media are saying Nuttall is the UKIP candidate. They've not had their selection meeting yet -- it's tomorrow night. The Nuttall sway isn't as strong as that of Farage, so I'm certain a few in the local party will need persuading that they should make way for this new pretender.


----------



## J Ed (Jan 19, 2017)

I think UKIP can do it


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 19, 2017)

Reports -By election to be held on same day as Copeland (and soon ).


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 19, 2017)

It will be soon, yes.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 20, 2017)

Tonights council byelection -Tory hold in Bromsgrove -but 11 per cent swing from tory to labour ,no ukip candidate last time and they took 16 percent which will prob have harmed the tories.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2017)

I'll be saying an official goodbye to Trissy tomorrow, as he tenders his resignation proper to the CLP. Any parting words you'd all like me to give?


----------



## teqniq (Jan 20, 2017)

Off you jolly well fuck to your £140,000 p/a job you arsehole.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 20, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'll be saying an official goodbye to Trissy tomorrow, as he tenders his resignation proper to the CLP. Any parting words you'd all like me to give?


When someone like Trissy resigns (actually that's a bit familiar and even Tristram sounds a bit informal. Surely the formal address must be something like Tristranicus?) it's hard to imagine them turning up to another meeting. A bit like thinking Mandy still shows up to run the Hartlepool CLP jumble sale.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 20, 2017)

teqniq said:


> Off you jolly well fuck to your £140,000 p/a job you arsehole.


*scabby* arsehole.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2017)

Tristranicus 

He will indeed be there tomorrow. If for no other reason than it's all part of the formalities - tendering the resignation to the CLP.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jan 20, 2017)

Tell him to kill himself.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2017)

No.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 20, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Tristranicus
> 
> He will indeed be there tomorrow. If for no other reason than it's all part of the formalities - tendering the resignation to the CLP.


I hope there'll be a collection for him?


----------



## Wilf (Jan 20, 2017)

Anyway, what are the plans for his leaving do? I hope to see him stotious with a traffic cone up his bum on 24 Hours in A&E.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jan 20, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> No.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Jan 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> When someone like Trissy resigns (actually that's a bit familiar and even Tristram sounds a bit informal. Surely the formal address must be something like Tristranicus?).



Hermes Trismegistus


----------



## BigMoaner (Jan 20, 2017)

even his name annoys me.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2017)

BigMoaner said:


> even his name annoys me.


good


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 20, 2017)

By election to be Feb 23,shortlist next Tuesday.Cast of locals inc normal councillors ,ex candidates and doctor and army reservist.Wonder who corbyn aides want ?.


----------



## tim (Jan 20, 2017)

Tipu's Tiger is one of my favourite artifacts at the V & A.



Perhaps Vintage Paw could borrow a tiger from the Stoke menagerie for Tristam's grande finale.


----------



## Wilf (Jan 20, 2017)

tim said:


> Tipu's Tiger is one of my favourite artifacts at the V & A.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps Vintage Paw could borrow a tiger from the Stoke menagerie for Tristam's grande finale.



If he's stayed as an MP and combined the 2 jobs maybe he could have worked out a deal. "Stoke City announce the V&A as their new shirt sponsors".


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 20, 2017)

tim said:


> Tipu's Tiger is one of my favourite artifacts at the V & A.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps Vintage Paw could borrow a tiger from the Stoke menagerie for Tristam's grande finale.



i don't think stoke has a menagerie.

would a meir cat do?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 20, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> i don't think stoke has a menagerie.
> 
> would a meir cat do?


sit on golda's lap

next


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 20, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'll be saying an official goodbye to Trissy tomorrow, as he tenders his resignation proper to the CLP. Any parting words you'd all like me to give?



Please pass on "cunt off, you dilettante fucknut" from me.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 20, 2017)

Cant see him getting much of a sendoff -the left think hes a tory and the right think hes a coward.

I just think he is a historian who should never have listened to Lord Guacamole .Stick to the day job next time.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2017)

It was a very pleasant affair this evening. He opened a tab for us and did the rounds. He is indeed as sweary as the Rowson piece suggests, but in an altogether more grown up way since his student days. 

It's quite strange - for all the opposition he has in the local party (and it's vocal opposition), everyone gets on with him very well. 

The campaigning begins in earnest now. Region are already on the ground. Chain of command has been decided: Jack Dromey will be running the campaign, and Ruth Smeeth will be candidate aide. The nec panel is pretty evenly split so if Watson was planning a stitch up it's not necessarily going to be as easy as he would want. 

That said, there are on the hush-hush favourites amongst many in the CLP (and everyone and their dog is applying), and it's highly likely one of them will be the front runner - the most likely is well liked locally, not just in the party but with past voters too. They have the ability to appease the left and right of the party as they have tendencies of both persuasions, and would most likely be good at the job. They are a proper local person, and the importance of that is known. We will have to wait and see if they make it on the shortlist but it's likely.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 20, 2017)

Both Nuttall and Suzanne Evans were at tonight's UKIP selection meeting. Pretty clear it's going to be Nuttall, which is likely to put th local UKIP leader's nose out of joint. 

It's going to be an interesting month.


----------



## BigTom (Jan 21, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'll be saying an official goodbye to Trissy tomorrow, as he tenders his resignation proper to the CLP. Any parting words you'd all like me to give?


Don't say anything, just reach out your hand as if to shake his then pull it away, up to your nose, thumb on nose, fingers waggling, tongue stuck out. Classic. He'll know what it means by how it makes him feel.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 21, 2017)

As Nuttall is selected ,Labour finds this.


Labour launches attack ad on Paul Nuttall ahead of by-election challenge


----------



## Raheem (Jan 21, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> As Nuttall is selected ,Labour finds this.
> 
> 
> Labour launches attack ad on Paul Nuttall ahead of by-election challenge



I love it when it's obvious that a politician has been made to learn something by rote but then didn't practice it enough. Just the odd way he says "more free market" as if it's an intangible quality or something. 

He almost gets every phoneme of "monolithic", though, so fair play.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2017)

Got a Paul Nuttsack leaflet through my door today. Fucking cunts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 23, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Got a Paul Nuttsack leaflet through my door today. Fucking cunts.


Shit on it and post it back to them. No stamp!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2017)

Him indoors has always had a thing for creating lists. Used to be the charts when he was a teenager. Now it's favourite song round-ups, popular bloggers, books he's read, and that. He's collecting leaflets from the by-election to make an archive of them. Ostensibly for 'interesting political purposes' but really I know he's just scratching that list itch.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2017)

The long list names are starting to filter through. There will be a full list later.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2017)

Partial long list - should prob be at least one more name to still emerge: All That Is Solid ...: Stoke-on-Trent Central Labour Long List

Edited with full list and short backgrounds on them.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 23, 2017)

So there's only one person on the final long list who has no links to the area, being based in London. Safe to say she won't have much of a chance. She's also a lefty. Everyone else either lives in the city or has pretty strong links to it. Interviews are in London tomorrow, and of course the shortlist should be out by tomorrow night ready for selection on Weds night. 

It's very exciting, and utterly terrifying.


----------



## Dogsauce (Jan 24, 2017)

Tories won't be trying very hard at this one, will they? A Nuttall victory would be a gift for them, defining UKIP as an alternative to Labour rather than them and putting Labour in disarray. Nuttall is also likely to be less attractive to the traditional blazer-clad golf club bigot tories that have given their vote to Farage in recent times, so they may come back to the fold, particularly with May being talked up as Maggie II. Win-win for them.


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## Old Spark (Jan 24, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> Tories won't be trying very hard at this one, will they? A Nuttall victory would be a gift for them, defining UKIP as an alternative to Labour rather than them and putting Labour in disarray. Nuttall is also likely to be less attractive to the traditional blazer-clad golf club bigot tories that have given their vote to Farage in recent times, so they may come back to the fold, particularly with May being talked up as Maggie II. Win-win for them.



No they wont but they were only a handful of votes behind ukip in 2015 so its a genuine three/fourway marginal   .Candidate selection is key to this one methinks.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

While Nuttall's been traipsing round Stoke he's looked every bit the Farage stand-in - going for the landed gent look.

Long list interviews are going on until 5 today. There will be a shortlist of 4, which is a little unusual but they want to ensure there's as broad a field as possible due to the unrest at what happened during Hunt's selection (which was a very obvious stitch up).

There was, sadly, a lack of lefties applying. As in proper Corbyn lefties and the like. That said, many of the others who applied aren't out and out evil-doers. There are a lot of things to take into consideration but the pragmatist has to understand that beating UKIP is essential and making a stand by having the leftest of the left as the candidate isn't going to necessarily achieve that goal. I know one name who is going to be on the shortlist (well nothing is certain but it's as certain as can be) and they're not a lefty but neither are they a rabid blairite. They're not a Corbynite and probably would have been the sort to sign the no confidence against him, but at the same time they're not the type to have made a song and dance about it like some. Another front runner (who may have something working against them wrt getting on the shortlist) considers themselves a socialist, has had proper fisticuffs with fascists in their past, but also has some strange ways of acting like a socialist (went to bat for academies in the city for example) but genuinely loves the city and parents are proper working class stokies. They are also very loyal, and while not a vocal Corbynite it's likely they wouldn't kick off and would stand by him because they realise that's important. 

I wish a competent proper lefty had stood but to be honest Stoke CLPs haven't exactly been the place to incubate one of these over the past few years.


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## killer b (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:
			
		

> they want to ensure there's as broad a field as possible due to the unrest at what happened during Hunt's selection (which was a very obvious stitch up).


more likely they want to ensure the left vote is split so the centrist gets the nom...


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

killer b said:


> more likely they want to ensure the left vote is split so the centrist gets the nom...



That depends which 'they' you are talking about. One 'they' will follow your line of thinking, the other mine. Or rather, it's more likely your 'they' will want one bad lefty so they can say there was a lefty and everyone will feel compelled to vote for the good candidate of whatever stripe. This is what happened during Hunt's selection and it caused a lot of anger. Members want their seat to be won, so whatever the person's politics they won't vote (in any number) for someone who can't tie their own shoelaces. 

I added to my previous post. It was a longer edit than intended, apols


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## Old Spark (Jan 24, 2017)

Old chinese bear who is this Chesterfield councillor doctor comrade ? If you are superstitious no problem


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

I don't know much about him. He is a lefty of some sort to my knowledge. I can find out more.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

About an hour ago I got a pamphlet through the door from one of the longlisters aimed at members arguing for their selection on Weds. This is the person I alluded to earlier who is more or less a shoe-in for the shortlist, but considering the interviews were still going on it feels a little cynical. They're a nice person by all accounts, but still. That said, considering there's not a whole bunch of time for campaigning ahead of tomorrow's selection meeting I suppose you can't blame them.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

Cynical me supposes Sonia Klein might make the shortlist for several reasons: 1) gender balance; 2) she's the only BAME candidate who made it to the long list; 3) she's a lefty who ticks all the typical 'right on' boxes, enough so to wind people up; 4) she's the only London parachute.

That said - other me isn't certain how cynical the relatively-evenly-split nec interview panel will be, or rather which bits of cynicism will make it to the fore. The shortlist will be a strategic one, but what various strategies are at play can be analysed once the list is public.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

I have reason to believe cynical me may have been wrong.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> There was, sadly, a lack of lefties applying. As in proper Corbyn lefties and the like. That said, many of the others who applied aren't out and out evil-doers. There are a lot of things to take into consideration but the pragmatist has to understand that beating UKIP is essential and making a stand by having the leftest of the left as the candidate isn't going to necessarily achieve that goal. I know one name who is going to be on the shortlist (well nothing is certain but it's as certain as can be) and they're not a lefty but neither are they a rabid blairite. They're not a Corbynite and probably would have been the sort to sign the no confidence against him, but at the same time they're not the type to have made a song and dance about it like some. Another front runner (who may have something working against them wrt getting on the shortlist) considers themselves a socialist, has had proper fisticuffs with fascists in their past, but also has some strange ways of acting like a socialist (went to bat for academies in the city for example) but genuinely loves the city and parents are proper working class stokies. They are also very loyal, and while not a vocal Corbynite it's likely they wouldn't kick off and would stand by him because they realise that's important.


Join Labour to make a _difference_!

Perfect illustration of how those you joined Labour to use the party as a vehicle are in actually fact the ones being used. It's not about labour it's about Labour and how it's _essential_ (for who) that UKIP don't win.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

Here is all I know about Hitchin after asking: loves the NHS (doctor, figures), loves Cuba (married to a Cuban, figures). That is, woefully, all I have on his creds. 

Shortlist will be on the All That Is Solid blog at 6pm.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Join Labour to make a _difference_!
> 
> Perfect illustration of how those you joined Labour to use the party as a vehicle are in actually fact the ones being used. It's not about labour it's about Labour and how it's _essential_ (for who) that UKIP don't win.



I'd guess it's essential for quite a lot of people that UKIP don't win.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'd guess it's essential for quite a lot of people that UKIP don't win.


It's certainly essential for those in the Labour Party. It's not essential for labour to have another _pragmatist_ Labour MP attacking them.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

So you'd rather UKIP than Labour? Interesting.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Brilliant, really you'd couldn't be a better example of why joining the LP is a dead end. Vote Labour! (Never mind the continuing attacks by Labour councils on workers)

Don't know why you don't put your name forward, with the type of doublethink and dishonesty you've shown in the last few posts you'd make an excellent MP.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

So that's a yes.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Yeah, I love UKIP me, wish I could go there and campaign for them. FFS were you this shit before joining the LP or is it something that happened since then?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

I'm curious as to what alternative strategy you would propose for the current by-election.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Again, you couldn't have a better example of the how the LP acts as a block rather than enabling pro-wc action.

The current by-election is everything, it's essential! (Well it is for the LP, but is it for the working class, is it fuck) And to think otherwise is to want a UKIP win. Urgh, the shitness of LP politics at it's finest. Fuck the working class it's the party that counts.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

The current by-election is a reality. It can't be wished away. The result will have tangible effects on the people who live here. What is the alternative?


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

What's the aim?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

Of asking what your alternative is? To get something more concrete other than your anger.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Of your politics.


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## littlebabyjesus (Jan 24, 2017)

We have a shit system that forces these shit choices. But given the shit system an anti-ukip vote shouldn't need to be seen as pro the other party. People feel forced into tactical voting to keep the cunts out. Sometimes that might be all you can aim for with an election.


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## Dom Traynor (Jan 24, 2017)

There is no alternative, not that voting Labour is that worthwhile but it is slight comfort for a slightly more progressive politics which is the best that can be achieved right now.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

Shortlist: All That Is Solid ...: Stoke-on-Trent Central Labour Shortlist


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

littlebabyjesus said:


> We have a shit system that forces these shit choices. But given the shit system an anti-ukip vote shouldn't need to be seen as pro the other party.


No but a LP member arguing that it's essential that the party doesn't lose (and thus the need to be _pragmatic_ over the choice of candidate), implying that those critical of the party are UKIP supporters - how is that not pro-LP? It's LP hackery from start to finish, in six months time VP will be arguing that voting non-Labour is giving a vote to the Tories/UKIP.


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## Wilf (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Of asking what your alternative is? To get something more concrete other than your anger.


I'm not going to personalise this, I don't know at what point you joined, this is more about the wider approach.  It started with the mass meetings, the hundreds of thousands joining up, but this is where it ends up. Labour faffing about whether they should have a three line whip over article 50, momentum seemingly splitting into camps and nothing more than the possibility of a ghastly MP being replaced by someone slightly less bad.  And even if the whole project were to work and Labour come to power, the promise would only be amelioration _for_ the working class (as opposed to neo -liberalism under new labour).  At no point has Corbyn, momentum or any of them engaged with the working class or explored the possibility that Parliamentary stuff might only be part of something, not the thing in itself.  Corbyn isn't as bad as Clinton, but when it comes to learning the lessons of brexit and trump he's equally clueless.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

I understand and agree with much of what you say, Wilf.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

On the very last page you claimed that it's _essential_ the UKIP don't win (and Labour do). You made the classic smear that criticism of Labour was pro-UKIP (or BNP, Tory, whatever). So what parts of Wilf's post do you actually agree with?


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## imposs1904 (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Shortlist: All That Is Solid ...: Stoke-on-Trent Central Labour Shortlist



who was on the NEC panel?


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

imposs1904 said:


> who was on the NEC panel?



Rhea Wolfson, Keith Vaz, Glenis Willmott, Keith Birch from Unison.


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## Dom Traynor (Jan 24, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm not going to personalise this, I don't know at what point you joined, this is more about the wider approach.  It started with the mass meetings, the hundreds of thousands joining up, but this is where it ends up. Labour faffing about whether they should have a three line whip over article 50, momentum seemingly splitting into camps and nothing more than the possibility of a ghastly MP being replaced by someone slightly less bad.  And even if the whole project were to work and Labour come to power, the promise would only be amelioration _for_ the working class (as opposed to neo -liberalism under new labour).  At no point has Corbyn, momentum or any of them engaged with the working class or explored the possibility that Parliamentary stuff might only be part of something, not the thing in itself.  Corbyn isn't as bad as Clinton, but when it comes to learning the lessons of brexit and trump he's equally clueless.


Labour would be in a far better position without Corbyn but here we are. There is no mass working class movement there is no critical mass of organisers or leaders capable of triggering one. There are a raft of competing tendencies the two strongest of which in terms of influence among the class are UKIP/Brexit and progressives. A small progressive victory might draw things out a bit longer and will not have any bad consequences that I can see.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> On the very last page you claimed that it's _essential_ the UKIP don't win (and Labour do). You made the classic smear that criticism of Labour was pro-UKIP (or BNP, Tory, whatever). So what parts of Wilf's post do you actually agree with?



I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about your alternative strategy for this by-election.


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## redsquirrel (Jan 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I'm still waiting for you to answer my question about your alternative strategy for this by-election.


I'll give you it right after you give me an alternative strategy for hitting your wife.

Or if that's not plain enough - the very question dictates the importance of this by-election (and electoral politics more generally) and it puts political parties at the centre while writing out the most important actor - the working class. It makes the Labour Party the end not the means (exactly as a number of us said would happen on previous threads).


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 24, 2017)

That is the sort of reply I expected.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

Hitchin has withdrawn.


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## Old Spark (Jan 25, 2017)

1/2 on a woman candidate then-according to all that is solid none voted for JC.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

I think it's between McGuinness and Snell.


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## Old Spark (Jan 25, 2017)

Labour Leave ring round masquerading as a poll.Dont think any of the three were leavers (no doubt they will say but we are where we are)

UK Polling Report


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

To my knowledge they were all remain. I expect they'll follow Ruth Smeeth's line on this (seeing as they'll work closely together and already know her anyway), which is that she will vote to trigger A50 because that's what her constituents wanted.

Anyway, I'll post the result as soon as it's called.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

Voting going on at the moment. 129 members here, larger turnout than for Tristram's selection. 

To correct an earlier point, Allison is a Corbynite - I don't think anyone in the party knew that. 

Corbyn's coming down for a meeting with members tomorrow night. It'll be interesting if the new candidate ends up being one who voted for Smith (as Trudie and Gareth both did). 

'Unity' was very much a theme of the night - with plenty of frustration over the coup last year and the way it showed the party up as a pile of shit unable to be effective in any way. All the candidates at the very least talked the talk on that one. 

Counting is happening now so I'll post when I know.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

It's Gareth Snell.


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## Old Spark (Jan 25, 2017)

Does he have the necessary to beat Nuttall.?

Is the constituency much changed in the boundary proposals ?


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## Old Spark (Jan 25, 2017)

Tories have also chosen their candidate.


Tories choose candidates for Copeland and Stoke Central byelections


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Does he have the necessary to beat Nuttall.?
> 
> Is the constituency much changed in the boundary proposals ?



He won a lot of people around tonight with his speech and answers to questions. Does he have what it takes? I think so but that all depends on how the campaign goes on both sides. 

Central will be abolished in the boundary review, it'll be subsumed by North and South constituencies. Of course, that doesn't mean Gareth would no longer represent the city because there will have to be some sort of process to work out who gets to represent who. I don't actually know how that process works. I believe a sitting MP has some kind of right or call to the new constituency if over 40% of their old one is in it, but tbh I don't know. And I don't know if there would be open selections or if it would be just amongst those MPs with a stake. I'm guessing open selections with the former MPs having an automatic spot on the shortlist if they indeed have that 40% in the new constituency - but this is speculation. It's a way away yet.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 25, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Tories have also chosen their candidate.
> 
> 
> Tories choose candidates for Copeland and Stoke Central byelections



The tory is presiding over the closure of the city's children's centres, which is a local issue people will be pissed off about. 

The biggest hurdle in the media certainly for Gareth is him being a remainer, but his stance is that of most Labour MPs - that he would vote to trigger A50 because that's what people voted for, and it'd be stupid not to, but that doesn't mean you stop trying to get a decent deal that doesn't fuck people over. The usual stuff. 

Rather amusingly a tweet he made from Sept is now doing the rounds (he's often been quite the tweeter) where he made up a little ditty calling brexit a massive pile of shit so you can imagine how that's going down


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## Old Spark (Jan 26, 2017)

Ah that social media it will always bite you in the bum.I think you have the boundary commission selections procedure correct.Not that they are a certainty given mays small majority and the dup having local problems.

Ukip need May to make a mess of brexit to seriously challenge for Labour seats .Ironically her alleged successes recently and going to see Trump will help Labour both by the Tory vote in stoke holding up and putting a lid on ukips growth.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Ah that social media it will always bite you in the bum.I think you have the boundary commission selections procedure correct.Not that they are a certainty given mays small majority and the dup having local problems.
> 
> Ukip need May to make a mess of brexit to seriously challenge for Labour seats .Ironically her alleged successes recently and going to see Trump will help Labour both by the Tory vote in stoke holding up and putting a lid on ukips growth.


Ukip make a mess of everything they do


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## gosub (Jan 26, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Ah that social media it will always bite you in the bum.I think you have the boundary commission selections procedure correct.Not that they are a certainty given mays small majority and the dup having local problems.
> 
> Ukip need May to make a mess of brexit to seriously challenge for Labour seats .Ironically her alleged successes recently and going to see Trump will help Labour both by the Tory vote in stoke holding up and putting a lid on ukips growth.



The type of mess May could make of Brexit : too far; too fast; too soon; is exactly what UKIP is calling for.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 26, 2017)

It's worth noting the tories were only a handful of votes behind ukip last time, so keeping them split in those numbers - so in other words the status quo - is what Labour would want. Although of course that supposes all the ukip voters came from the tories, which they clearly didn't.


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## Old Spark (Jan 26, 2017)

Wonder whether any of the pollsters will do a poll -constituency polls by ashcroft werent very accurate in 2015.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 26, 2017)

Old Spark said:
			
		

> Ukip need May to make a mess of brexit to seriously challenge for Labour seats .Ironically her alleged successes recently and going to see Trump will help Labour both by the Tory vote in stoke holding up and putting a lid on Ukips growth.



Old Spark You might be underestimating this earlier factor though :



billy_bob said:


> That should make perfect sense, but the last few years' evidence don't necessarily support sense winning the day...
> 
> UKIP have done quite well on the 'anti-establishment' ticket even though, in the person of Farage at least, they're clearly anything but. And I think when people complain about 'outsiders parachuted in', what's really pissing them off is the arrogance of the parachuting, the taking-it-for-granted-you'll-vote-for-us of someone being foisted on them just because he/she happens to suit the parliamentary/national party, the emotional and political distance between them and the candidate, rather than necessarily that he/she physically doesn't come from down the road.
> 
> I think people have got so comfortable with *cognitive dissonance* in their voting behaviour now that plenty will be happy to vote for a non-local UKIP candidate over a local Labour candidate _still _on the basis that the UKIP is more in touch with local concerns.



*'cognitive dissonance*' 

Good euphemism for *some* tempted by UKIP ...


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## The39thStep (Jan 26, 2017)

Labour as the opposition party really should be looking to increase their majority in a seat they have held for years.


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## Old Spark (Jan 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Labour as the opposition party really should be looking to increase their majority in a seat they have held for years.



Yeah right- yougov has Labour on 24 percent nationally tonight,tories on 40,ukip, 13,libdems10.

C2DE the working class -Tories 35 Labour 25 ukip 21 libdems 5

ABC1 the middle class -Tories 43 Labour 24 ukip 10 Libdems 14


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## gosub (Jan 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Labour as the opposition party really should be looking to increase their majority in a seat they have held for years.



Absolutely, and the 14% dip when central office shoe-in Tristram Hunt got the seat should be reversed (chances are it won't, and I think by some weird counter logic Mark FIsher gets trashed)


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## The39thStep (Jan 27, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Yeah right- yougov has Labour on 24 percent nationally tonight,tories on 40,ukip, 13,libdems10.
> 
> C2DE the working class -Tories 35 Labour 25 ukip 21 libdems 5
> 
> ABC1 the middle class -Tories 43 Labour 24 ukip 10 Libdems 14


Apparantly Since 2015 Labour have achieved an average 5% increase in their share of the vote in by elections where they previously held the seat.


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## Old Spark (Jan 27, 2017)

Nuttall advocates waterboardlng(if it saves lives).

Quite how he would know whether it does or whether it costs lives is unclear.

Who does he think he is Nigel Trump.

All he had to do was blether on about Brexit.Zero political judgement methinks.


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## Pickman's model (Jan 27, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Nuttall advocates waterboardlng(if it saves lives).
> 
> Quite how he would know whether it does or whether it costs lives is unclear.
> 
> ...


Let's send nuttall on a waterboarding vacation


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## killer b (Jan 27, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Apparantly Since 2015 Labour have achieved an average 5% increase in their share of the vote in by elections where they previously held the seat.


This (and Copeland) is the first by-election in a seat they previously held since brexit isn't it? Labour were floating just under the tories up until then.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 27, 2017)

With this Stoke one, I can only hope that the Nuttall being parachuted factor may help him not being elected .....


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 28, 2017)

Here's a write-up of the selection meeting: All That Is Solid ...: Inside Stoke Central's Selection Meeting


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## The39thStep (Jan 28, 2017)

killer b said:


> This (and Copeland) is the first by-election in a seat they previously held since brexit isn't it? Labour were floating just under the tories up until then.


I think you are right.


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## killer b (Jan 28, 2017)

there was a story in the staggers the other day which paints a bleak picture - I forget how shit Stephen Bush is, but it all sounds plausible to me

Why has Jeremy Corbyn committed Labour to voting for Article 50?


----------



## J Ed (Jan 28, 2017)

killer b said:


> there was a story in the staggers the other day which paints a bleak picture - I forget how shit Stephen Bush is, but it all sounds plausible to me
> 
> Why has Jeremy Corbyn committed Labour to voting for Article 50?



He is pretty shit but this seems like an accurate assessment to me.


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 28, 2017)

J Ed said:


> He is pretty shit but this seems like an accurate assessment to me.



Yes all down hill for Lab since the referendum and still dropping.

If this Bush account stacks up -then certain mps are in big big trouble -miliband,soubry,owen smith,hoey,clarke,morgan ,stuart ,brake?

As were hunt and reed


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## ferrelhadley (Jan 28, 2017)

killer b said:


> there was a story in the staggers the other day which paints a bleak picture - I forget how shit Stephen Bush is, but it all sounds plausible to me
> 
> Why has Jeremy Corbyn committed Labour to voting for Article 50?


By May 2020 the UK will be out of Europe (barring something spectacular). Having the same position at the government will mean that if the economy gets bumpy there is no capital for Labour to blame the governments handling of Brexit. By seeming to jump from anti EU, to pro and now for Brexit it looks to people like he is insincere on the issue. Labours Brexit policy should be aimed at reaping potential rewards in 2020 not farting about with by elections in 2017. There are 50 seats up in Scotland, they are not going to move SNP>Lab with this policy. (Actually Corbyn does not seem to know Scotland exists). Demanding a second referendum, "let the British people descide if the deal is one they want to go through with" is the kind of fudge that would kick the issue onto the back burner for the internal party politics, give them something to take into to Scotland and Labour areas that are pro Remain and be sellable in Eurosceptic marginals "why do you think the people do not deserve the final say on this deal, a second referendum is Labour trusting the people". Might not be a vote winner there but it is unlikely to be a big vote loser. 

I liked to joke about Cameron\Osborne that they were all tactics and no strategy, that blew up in their faces over Brexit, short term compromises that came home to roost. 

There is another elephant in this room. Corbyn. He is not a vote winner in low income areas outside of the inner cities and big cities. While people can dismiss it as not relevant but his, ambiguous shall we say, relationship with things like Hamas, Hezb'allah and the IRA, the public mess that was last years obsessing with Vanguard replacement, seen as generally not patriotic, these things all add up in subtle ways that make him appear every bit as distant and out of touch as the Tories and the Blairites in places like Stoke.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 28, 2017)

What does the first one mean? Politically.


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## Old Spark (Jan 28, 2017)

Labour back as favourite ,just,with some bookmakers after nuttall endorses trump on waterboarding.


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## Vintage Paw (Jan 28, 2017)

Every Labour MP and their aunt has been in Stoke today canvassing and delivering leaflets. Jess Phillips was up my street earlier. Corbyn was around too. Pictures abound of Ruth Smeeth with Gareth and Corbyn tucking into some oatcakes together in the caff. 'Unity' being the watchword of the moment.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jan 28, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Pictures abound of Ruth Smeeth with Gareth and Corbyn tucking into some oatcakes together in the caff.


 


oatcakes means oatcakes


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 28, 2017)

We could do with an old bear in copeland on here-my impression is the bulk of the resources are going to stoke and it would be interesting to know whats going on up there.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Jan 29, 2017)

It's easier to get to Stoke -- not that I'm implying that might have anything to do with the willingness of some to make the trip...


----------



## Old Spark (Jan 29, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> It's easier to get to Stoke -- not that I'm implying that might have anything to do with the willingness of some to make the trip...



Fair enough -the trek was one reason that reed packed it in.




ferrelhadley said:


> By May 2020 the UK will be out of Europe (barring something spectacular). Having the same position at the government will mean that if the economy gets bumpy there is no capital for Labour to blame the governments handling of Brexit. By seeming to jump from anti EU, to pro and now for Brexit it looks to people like he is insincere on the issue. Labours Brexit policy should be aimed at reaping potential rewards in 2020 not farting about with by elections in 2017. There are 50 seats up in Scotland, they are not going to move SNP>Lab with this policy. (Actually Corbyn does not seem to know Scotland exists). Demanding a second referendum, "let the British people descide if the deal is one they want to go through with" is the kind of fudge that would kick the issue onto the back burner for the internal party politics, give them something to take into to Scotland and Labour areas that are pro Remain and be sellable in Eurosceptic marginals "why do you think the people do not deserve the final say on this deal, a second referendum is Labour trusting the people". Might not be a vote winner there but it is unlikely to be a big vote loser.
> 
> I liked to joke about Cameron\Osborne that they were all tactics and no strategy, that blew up in their faces over Brexit, short term compromises that came home to roost.
> 
> There is another elephant in this room. Corbyn. He is not a vote winner in low income areas outside of the inner cities and big cities. While people can dismiss it as not relevant but his, ambiguous shall we say, relationship with things like Hamas, Hezb'allah and the IRA, the public mess that was last years obsessing with Vanguard replacement, seen as generally not patriotic, these things all add up in subtle ways that make him appear every bit as distant and out of touch as the Tories and the Blairites in places like Stoke.



Corbyn cant win -if he said oppose A50 the revolt amongst his mps who represent constituencies who voted to leave would be massive and he would be accused of going against the will of the people risking wipe out north of watford.

The vote to support A50 avoids all that-Labour will almost certainly oppose the final deal and the secondary  legislation that flows from the great repeal bill .These are the big fights to come.

Corbyn would support A50 even if there were no byelections -he has seen the polling.

If he loses support amongst members well that always happens to leaders ,its time they woke up and realised labour is in a really bad place.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 29, 2017)

6 out of the top nine seats that voted leave but have the the smallest parliamentary majorities are Tory.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 30, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Jess Phillips was up my street earlier.



((((People of Stoke)))


----------



## kebabking (Jan 30, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> 6 out of the top nine seats that voted leave but have the the smallest parliamentary majorities are Tory.



it doesn't really matter - apart from a few exceptions the remain Tory MP's have swung behind, or quietly stepped out of the way of, brexit. 

they will also be able to say 'we have delivered Brexit' regardless of their personal feelings on the matter, and as everyone knows, the vast majority of seats are decided not on the quality/views of the particular candidates but on national party affiliation - so if the Tories are still doing well in the polls in 2020 (and yes, theres a great deal of water still to flow under that bridge yet..), then the individual MP's will be ok, regardless of the mismatch or otherwise between their views and those of their constituants.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 30, 2017)

kebabking said:


> it doesn't really matter - apart from a few exceptions the remain Tory MP's have swung behind, or quietly stepped out of the way of, brexit.
> 
> they will also be able to say 'we have delivered Brexit' regardless of their personal feelings on the matter, and as everyone knows, the vast majority of seats are decided not on the quality/views of the particular candidates but on national party affiliation - so if the Tories are still doing well in the polls in 2020 (and yes, theres a great deal of water still to flow under that bridge yet..), then the individual MP's will be ok, regardless of the mismatch or otherwise between their views and those of their constituants.


Would that apply to remain Labour MPs ?


----------



## kebabking (Jan 31, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Would that apply to remain Labour MPs ?



given that Labour aren't in government, probably not...


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2017)

kebabking said:


> given that Labour aren't in government, probably not...


It was the bit when you said the majority of seats are decided on party affiliation rather than personal views which I thought was a reasonable point. But you are saying that it wouldn't apply to parties not in government ? Surely not.


----------



## kebabking (Jan 31, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> It was the bit when you said the majority of seats are decided on party affiliation rather than personal views which I thought was a reasonable point. But you are saying that it wouldn't apply to parties not in government ? Surely not.



sorry, no, it was't that, it was that if the government are still 10%+ ahead at the next GE (unlikely, but thats not important..) then those tory MP's who were remain will just get swept along in the general vote, not least because they've changed, or moderated, their tone on Brexit.

Labours problem is that there are enough Lab MP's making noise about stopping, or what sounds like stopping, Brexit that the party is begining to be tarred with the anti-Brexit (and here i very specifically mean ignoring/overturning the referendum result, rather than the pro's or cons of a particular policy) brush even though thats absolutely not party policy.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 31, 2017)

kebabking said:


> sorry, no, it was't that, it was that if the government are still 10%+ ahead at the next GE (unlikely, but thats not important..) then those tory MP's who were remain will just get swept along in the general vote, not least because they've changed, or moderated, their tone on Brexit.
> 
> Labours problem is that there are enough Lab MP's making noise about stopping, or what sounds like stopping, Brexit that the party is begining to be tarred with the anti-Brexit (and here i very specifically mean ignoring/overturning the referendum result, rather than the pro's or cons of a particular policy) brush even though thats absolutely not party policy.


I agree it's stuck between appeasing its middle class vote and it's working class vote. It can make a little bit of hay on Trump but opposition to him isn't a monopoly of the Labour Party and and they need to be careful on what issue, even a majority of Labour voters would like to see less immigration .


----------



## kebabking (Jan 31, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> I agree it's stuck between appeasing its middle class vote and it's working class vote. It can make a little bit of hay on Trump but opposition to him isn't a monopoly of the Labour Party and and they need to be careful on what issue, even a majority of Labour voters would like to see less immigration .



Trump is a double-eged sword - he is an odious, nasty man, but he's also many thousands of miles away, and when people are demonstrating in the UK streets about his immigration policies, or Radio 4 are doing interviews about his attitudes to abortion provision in the first 15 minutes of their flagship news programme at the same time that MP's are debating enabling the withdrawl from the EU, there are are going to be a very large number of people who ask themselves where these people were when a patient died of a brain aneurism after lying on a trolley in my local hospital for two days, or why UK border control consists of 6 people, a rowing boat and a broken computer.

the number of voters who have any US domestic political issue in their top ten concerns is going to infitesimally small, and if Labour were to try and use Trump as a crutch there will very quickly alienate very large numbers of voters, and i would suggest they will be overwhelmingly target voters, who may well dislike Trump, but who simply don't care about how difficult other, probably much better off, people find it to get into America, or how his stuffing of the US Supreme Court affects women in Nebraska while it takes them 3 weeks to get a doctors appointment.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 1, 2017)

Nuttall outed (as telling porkies) and like le pen and le farage allegedly fiddling(from the EU)

Some might say he is therefore ideal mp material ,not me tho(and hopefully the good people of stoke).

Paul Nuttall's Stoke byelection papers gave address he had not moved into


Nigel Farage among Ukip MEPs accused of misusing EU funds


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 1, 2017)

The BNP are standing as well. I wonder how many votes they'll take from UKIP. I'm going to say not many, but even a few hundred might make a difference in this election.

Also:


----------



## binka (Feb 1, 2017)

Good old Michael Crick sneering at some locals on C4 News just now


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 1, 2017)

binka said:


> Good old Michael Crick sneering at some locals on C4 News just now


What was he saying?


----------



## binka (Feb 1, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> What was he saying?


Just asking them about Farage and Trump and was aghast that any of them thought we need a Trump here. Probably me reading too much into it but I had the impression of 'listen to these fucking simpletons'


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 1, 2017)

They were deliberately picked no doubt, and probably not at all representative, but they weren't exactly the sharpest knives were they?

He should have concentrated on the Nuttall story. I fucking hate TV news vox pops on any subject


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 1, 2017)

Crick's salty today because he didn't get his interview with Gareth Snell. Gareth works for Unison, and had stuff to do for them today. Apparently it's beyond the pale that a candidate a) might not be rolling in it and needs to continue to work; and b) might still have ongoing commitments that need tying up before (if) they leave.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 2, 2017)

binka said:


> Just asking them about Farage and Trump and was aghast that any of them thought we need a Trump here. Probably me reading too much into it but I had the impression of 'listen to these fucking simpletons'



tbh if they think that then are pretty fucking simple.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 2, 2017)

Police called in to investigate Nuttall and his nomination papers.


politicalbetting.com  » Blog Archive   » It’s blindingly obvious that Paul Nuttall is a scouser so why try to hide it?


Paul Nuttall under police investigation over election fraud claims


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 3, 2017)

The progressive alliance rides again.Probably on balance not very helpful in stoke or copeland.

Labour looks at collaborating with Lib Dems and Greens in Stoke


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 3, 2017)

As I said in the Corbyn thread



> It is worth bearing in mind that there isn't a single quote from any Labour source there, not even an anonymous one, while at the same time there's LD arse-licking aplenty, it's clearly part of the the Guardians own agenda.
> 
> That said there are people, both inside and outside the LP, that want to see this type of progressive alliance (urgh) and would cheer over an anti-UKIP message. And [billy_bob is] completely right that this is the type of shit that is why people are voting for UKIP and merely strengthens the hard-right vote.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 4, 2017)

It's exactly the same politics that says vote Fillon or Macron over LePen in France. This idea that somehow the centre/centre right can and wants to deliver for working people instead of being outright hostile to workers and their organisations.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 4, 2017)

If Labour loses heavily in 2020 after the jocks go for it in 2018 and Lewis and Chuka lead the party it will have serious legs but currently JC and Momentum agree with DT and the squirrel so this is either a guardian invented story or comes from a malevolent labour insider.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 4, 2017)

I've tried but I can't decode that. But the idea that an LP lead by brain-dead self-interested filth like Umunna will have "serious legs" well, says everything.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 4, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> I've tried but I can't decode that. But the idea that an LP lead by brain-dead self-interested filth like Umunna will have "serious legs" well, says everything.



Well jeepers there scurius vulgaris you have such a way with abuse,not really much of a substitute for rational argument tho..Them grey boys sent you a bit angry and loopy la la.

Decode it ? Just read and understand it -you dont like it I get that.Poor old chuka -is it cos he not a white boy like your goodself.

Wheres your destination young man -where do you wanna go like.Capice.?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 4, 2017)

Yeah, that's right I'm a racist. Love UKIP/BNP me. You fucking moron.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 4, 2017)

You funny person angry vulgaris.

Chill man chill -no wonder you is almost extinct like innit.

How do I know you aint a racist -what do you get up to in yer spare time .You not one of those evangelicals.?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 4, 2017)

I hear on the grapevine that the LibDems are going around to various local Asians telling them that they can't rely on whiter-than-white Snell to look after their interests. And that of course the good Dr Ali will.

I fucking hate the LibDems.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 4, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:
			
		

> I fucking hate the LibDems



So do I -- they might as well be directly campaigning for Nuttall,  spreading shite like that. Twats.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Well jeepers there scurius vulgaris you have such a way with abuse,not really much of a substitute for rational argument tho..Them grey boys sent you a bit angry and loopy la la.
> 
> Decode it ? Just read and understand it -you dont like it I get that.Poor old chuka -is it cos he not a white boy like your goodself.
> 
> Wheres your destination young man -where do you wanna go like.Capice.?



Mention Chuka Umunna round here in the poorer part of his constituency, and you'll hear a lot of teeth-sucking and name-calling, because as a constituency MP he's fucking shit.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> Mention Chuka Umunna round here in the poorer part of his constituency, and you'll hear a lot of teeth-sucking and name-calling, because as a constituency MP he's fucking shit.



Does that mean hes not very good ?I was merely pointing out that he was ,with Lewis,a leading known supporter of the progressive alliance notion -not surprising as he like clive supports pr.

Be interesting how the boundary changes play out dawn in sarf london then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Feb 5, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Does that mean hes not very good ?I was merely pointing out that he was ,with Lewis,a leading known supporter of the progressive alliance notion -not surprising as he like clive supports pr.
> 
> Be interesting how the boundary changes play out dawn in sarf london then.



He's a good politician as far as modern politicians can be measured - he knows how to grease people, and to make deals. He's a natural schmoozer - but as far as being a decent constituency MP, he's shite. 

Possible boundary changes will affect him, and he's long noised it about that he wants to be MP of a constituency that includes Brixton, possibly because he deludes himself that Brixton's BAME population will vote for him unthinkingly. A lot of people down here still remember him purporting to speak for Brixton when he condemned the "Thatcher's Dead!" party in Windrush Sq - he wasn't speaking for most of them, because they remembered under whose watch the riots occurred, and who had the greatest hand in amended immigration legislation.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 5, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> You funny person angry vulgaris.
> 
> Chill man chill -no wonder you is almost extinct like innit.
> 
> How do I know you aint a racist -what do you get up to in yer spare time .You not one of those evangelicals.?





Old Spark said:


> Does that mean hes not very good ?I was merely pointing out that he was ,with Lewis,a leading known supporter of the progressive alliance notion -not surprising as he like clive supports pr.
> 
> Be interesting how the boundary changes play out dawn in sarf london then.



you were merely pointing out blah blah and then throwing the raco card about in apparent defence of a Nu Lab smarmo douche...: lame


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> you were merely pointing out blah blah and then throwing the raco card about in apparent defence of a Nu Lab
> 
> Blah blah old bean - nowt to do with thee lad sure the old squidgle is quite capable of responding himself -tho it will probably will be more abuse .Got any snickers.?


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 5, 2017)

ViolentPanda said:


> He's a good politician as far as modern politicians can be measured - he knows how to grease people, and to make deals. He's a natural schmoozer - but as far as being a decent constituency MP, he's shite.
> 
> Possible boundary changes will affect him, and he's long noised it about that he wants to be MP of a constituency that includes Brixton, possibly because he deludes himself that Brixton's BAME population will vote for him unthinkingly. A lot of people down here still remember him purporting to speak for Brixton when he condemned the "Thatcher's Dead!" party in Windrush Sq - he wasn't speaking for most of them, because they remembered under whose watch the riots occurred, and who had the greatest hand in amended immigration legislation.



As it happens I wouldnt trust him as far as I could throw him but I agree with him on pr and a federal uk which would potentially  allow the socialists and the social democrats to separate instead of fighting like ferrets in a sack.

Some of the corbynite left (tho not McDonnell)  and all the trade union brownite hard right are opposed so it could take another two or three  election defeats to move the argument forward.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> As I said in the Corbyn thread





> That said there are people, both inside and outside the LP, that want to see this type of progressive alliance (urgh) and would cheer over an anti-UKIP message. And [billy_bob is] completely right that this is the type of shit that is why people are voting for UKIP and merely strengthens the hard-right vote.



Indeed you wouldn't to be in government with an alliance with lib dems, but I don't understand why one party standing down when they can't win a constituency is so bad.

I'd have thought people were more likely getting disillusioned with party politics because of the number of MPs with financial interests in what they're voting on, and the expenses claims, and the fact that they keep voting lib dem or labour in a constituency where their combined vote is much higher than the tories but they still get a fucking tory mp

Eta and a fucking tory government.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 5, 2017)

forgive me, haven't about that much of late, are you the new mr wacky on the block ?


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2017)

cantsin said:


> forgive me, haven't about that much of late, are you the new mr wacky on the block ?



must be  anything in particular?


----------



## cantsin (Feb 5, 2017)

two sheds said:


> must be  anything in particular?



lol, soz, not you


----------



## two sheds (Feb 5, 2017)

awwww


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 6, 2017)

Bush says shock cant be ruled out .

Will Labour lose in Stoke?


----------



## kebabking (Feb 6, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Bush says shock cant be ruled out .
> 
> Will Labour lose in Stoke?



wasn't a particularly researched article though was it?

'they _may_ lose _if _a number of factors come together'. well shit me, i can tell you what the weather _might_ be like on 23rd November 2034, but i offer no probabilities, and make no forecast on the basis of research. which is about the strength of that article.

from talking to people who've been knocking on doors and making phone calls, i'm predicting a narrow Labour win (majority of 2,000), on a shit 25-30% turnout, with UKIP in second place and the LD's being their normal dupicitous and awkward selves, but miles behind UKIP and squabbling with the Tories for third place.

i shall be forwarding my CV to the Spectator this very day...


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 6, 2017)

I've been legit doorknocked this weekend -- and in my 17 years of living at this address this has never happened before. Local Labour leaflet and campaign all year round, but tend to stick to specific areas of interest. For example, my ward is pretty solid Labour with a large (relatively speaking) Asian population and a well-known Asian Labour councillor, so isn't necessarily seen as a target. But all the stops are out this time, with blanket leafletting and doorknocking. People are travelling from all over, not just at the weekend but during the week as well. UKIP simply can't command that kind of coverage or support.


----------



## gosub (Feb 6, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I've been legit doorknocked this weekend -- and in my 17 years of living at this address this has never happened before. Local Labour leaflet and campaign all year round, but tend to stick to specific areas of interest. For example, my ward is pretty solid Labour with a large (relatively speaking) Asian population and a well-known Asian Labour councillor, so isn't necessarily seen as a target. But all the stops are out this time, with blanket leafletting and doorknocking. People are travelling from all over, not just at the weekend but during the week as well. UKIP simply can't command that kind of coverage or support.



no doubt Michael Crick will be pointing a finger at 'iffy' expenses


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 6, 2017)

If there's any problem with election expenses it's with UKIP. They've sent franked letters to people with pre-paid envelopes included inside, which will cost a lot depending on how many it went out to. There are a couple of other things too, but it's being kept an eye on...


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 6, 2017)

Vintage Paw -- how are reactions going on the doorsteps, as far as you're aware? I bet you know more than Stephen Bush does


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 6, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> with pre-paid envelopes included inside, which will cost a lot depending on how many it went out to.


 
that could get expensive if people start mailing them argos catalogues / bricks / bags of shite


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 6, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Vintage Paw -- how are reactions going on the doorsteps, as far as you're aware? I bet you know more than Stephen Bush does



Mostly positive, and getting more positive as the campaign goes on. Doing nothing to thwart stereotypes, of those saying they'll vote ukip they're mostly all older blokes. More Labour people than don't knows (next largest group) and kippers -- but it's hard to get a real handle on it because a) the city is large and diverse and there are no detailed breakdowns of this stuff (this is all just anecdote, observations of a handful of people I know); and b) you might find that if you're a kipper doorknocking you get more ukip voters than Labour -- people often only tell you what they're comfortable telling you.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2017)

gosub said:


> no doubt Michael Crick will be pointing a finger at 'iffy' expenses



Sheff was denied taking a bus as it would affect the level of expenses allowed, squeaky clean on this one.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2017)

> Stoke byelection: this is Britain on the edge, torn between hope and despair | Polly Toynbee
> 
> I found voters there teetering between Labour and Ukip. They’re choosing not just an MP but an identity



Polly's take, she has been there.


----------



## gosub (Feb 7, 2017)

treelover said:


> Sheff was denied taking a bus as it would affect the level of expenses allowed, squeaky clean on this one.


If people are turning up from all over that means transport expenses and if they are staying overnight that means hotel bills..Not just Labour, assume UKIP doing the same


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 7, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Mostly positive, and getting more positive as the campaign goes on. Doing nothing to thwart stereotypes, of those saying they'll vote ukip they're mostly all older blokes. More Labour people than don't knows (next largest group) and kippers -- but it's hard to get a real handle on it because a) the city is large and diverse and there are no detailed breakdowns of this stuff (this is all just anecdote, observations of a handful of people I know); and b) you might find that if you're a kipper doorknocking you get more ukip voters than Labour -- people often only tell you what they're comfortable telling you.




Which is why a poll is probably the only way to get any sense of the way its going -constituency polling commissioned by Ashcroft   was quite common in the 2015 general election but much less accurate than the nationals.I guess Banks would finance one for ukip ,just as Ashcroft would for the Tories in Copeland.Presumably Labour will have a private pollster as well.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 7, 2017)

gosub said:


> If people are turning up from all over that means transport expenses and if they are staying overnight that means hotel bills..Not just Labour, assume UKIP doing the same


You've obviously never been involved in an election campaign.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

treelover said:


> Polly's take, she has been there.


has she really? what two identities did she teeter between?


----------



## hash tag (Feb 7, 2017)

Thats another fine mess.....

Nigel Farage and Paul Nuttall pelted with eggs in Stoke-on-Trent


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

hash tag said:


> Thats another fine mess.....
> 
> Nigel Farage and Paul Nuttall pelted with eggs in Stoke-on-Trent


i don't know what paul nuttall thinks he looks like, but his dress sense leaves something to be desired. i think he's wearing farage's cast-offs.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i don't know what paul nuttall thinks he looks like, but his dress sense leaves something to be desired. i think he's wearing farage's cast-offs.



Silly fool trying to pretend he is a toff-if you ever go horse racing you seen hundreds of hooray henrys dressed like this in a sort of green tweed with different coloured lines on the jackets and hats-tells you they support hunting with dogs as well.

Appeals to the false royalist subservience in the tug your forelock ukip mindset.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Silly fool trying to pretend he is a toff-if you ever go horse racing you seen hundreds of hooray henrys dressed like this in a sort of green with different coloured lines on the jackets and hats-tells you they support hunting with dogs as well.
> 
> Appeals to the false royalist subservience in the tug your forelock ukip mindset.


if you look at farage's suit, it's cut quite well, but if you look at nuttall the line, the edge of the jacket, goes straight down and he looks a loon.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look at farage's suit, it's cut quite well, but if you look at nuttall the line, the edge of the jacket, goes straight down and he looks a loon.



Farage is stockbroker chic-well he should know it was his career,nuttall is all pretend and obviously false.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 7, 2017)

A journos take after a day in Stoke.


politicalbetting.com  » Blog Archive   » Stoke Central’s down to whether BREXIT’s a big enough issue for ordinary voters to come out an give LAB a kicking


----------



## gosub (Feb 7, 2017)

Dom Traynor said:


> You've obviously never been involved in an election campaign.



Not recently. But have in past, at up to regional level.  Have gathered from press, all parties got so complacent with rule bending the Electoral Commision investigation into last election came as a bit of a shock.  Was caused by Crick, who now probably has a better grasp of election law than most agents and returning officers ..and he's noseing about in Stoke,


----------



## Wilf (Feb 7, 2017)

kebabking said:


> wasn't a particularly researched article though was it?
> 
> 'they _may_ lose _if _a number of factors come together'. well shit me, i can tell you what the weather _might_ be like on 23rd November 2034, but i offer no probabilities, and make no forecast on the basis of research. which is about the strength of that article.
> 
> ...


I was pretty confidently predicting Labour would lose both Stoke and Copeland, in that they have all the elements in place for, respectively a ukip and tory victory.  Must admit, I'm a bit less confident now.  In both cases, but particularly Stoke, I'm _guessing_ it's now about whether the feelings that produced brexit will translate into by election votes (well, _obviously_ it's about that). There's just about nothing good going on for Labour at the moment, but maybe the ukip/brexit impulse is a bit flaccid at the moment.  Right! Full on prediction time: erm, I don't know.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2017)

> 'Im beginning to question the right I have to judge the people of Stoke. Yet I undoubtedly do.
> 
> In my eyes, UKIP are an abhorrent party. However, I live in London, read the guardian, like to buy organic produce at farmers markets and enjoy regular city breaks in Europe. While I don't consider myself rich, I certainly enjoy a level of privilege above many of those in Stoke.
> 
> ...



Posted on Polly's article(above in comments)


----------



## teqniq (Feb 7, 2017)

Re: Nuttall






what a scumbag.


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2017)

Btw, on Momentum FB there is a poster commenting on an admittedly awful man who ripped a Niquab off, by describing his facial features and saying "just look at his face"!, who was the last to do that, 1930's/40's in Germany?


----------



## killer b (Feb 7, 2017)

I'm sure it's happened many times since then tbf.


----------



## agricola (Feb 7, 2017)

killer b said:


> I'm sure it's happened many times since then tbf.



Barry Davies used it at least twice in commentary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

treelover said:


> Btw, on Momentum FB there is a poster commenting on an admittedly awful man who ripped a Niquab off, by describing his facial features and saying "just look at his face"!, who was the last to do that, 1930's/40's in Germany?


gunther nissenbaum of augsburg, in the newsletter of st agatha, augsburg, august 25, 1940, p17

next


----------



## treelover (Feb 7, 2017)

Any reports of the UKIP rally last night, numbers, etc?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

treelover said:


> Any reports of the UKIP rally last night, numbers, etc?


yes. yes there are.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 7, 2017)

gosub said:


> If people are turning up from all over that means transport expenses and if they are staying overnight that means hotel bills..Not just Labour, assume UKIP doing the same



As a general rule, people turn up under their own steam, so travel doesn't go towards election expenses. Seasoned Labour activists are a dedicated lot, and will travel regardless.

UKIP, however... that may have been one of the other things I mentioned that was being kept an eye on.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 7, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> if you look at farage's suit, it's cut quite well, but if you look at nuttall the line, the edge of the jacket, goes straight down and he looks a loon.



It's an overcoat. But everything else stands.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 7, 2017)

gosub said:


> Not recently. But have in past, at up to regional level.  Have gathered from press, all parties got so complacent with rule bending the Electoral Commision investigation into last election came as a bit of a shock.  Was caused by Crick, who now probably has a better grasp of election law than most agents and returning officers ..and he's noseing about in Stoke,



George Sinnot (regional director) is very aware that considering the importance of this race, this is the very last place you'd want to invite any kind of criticism or legal action over anything that might appear dodgy in terms of election law. Down to us all needing to show photo ID on selection night.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Down to us all needing to show photo ID on selection night.


that sort of shit drives me mad, the w/c are less likely to be registered to vote for many reasons that we don't need to bore off with because we know but you pay council tax. You are the only Dotcommie from 76 Arsehead road. Where's my fucking vote. They made us all re-register in kettering last year. The place is a tory safe seat ffs. Electoral fraud doesn't operate at lower levels like that of Tower Hamlets and the boot full of ballot papers as normal. Its easier to do it higher. The volounteers (250 quid! yay) are normally sorts who take our process very seriously. Its just using cries of 'shennanigans' to keep out the w/c vote via means gross and subtle. Same as they do to unions, hamstring them with a level of democratic accountability they never hold themselves to. Whither now the show of hands


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 7, 2017)

treelover said:


> Any reports of the UKIP rally last night, numbers, etc?


Have you found one yet?


----------



## agricola (Feb 7, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> that sort of shit drives me mad, the w/c are less likely to be registered to vote for many reasons that we don't need to bore off with because we know but you pay council tax. You are the only Dotcommie from 76 Arsehead road. Where's my fucking vote. They made us all re-register in kettering last year. The place is a tory safe seat ffs. Electoral fraud doesn't operate at lower levels like that of Tower Hamlets and the boot full of ballot papers as normal. Its easier to do it higher. The volounteers (250 quid! yay) are normally sorts who take our process very seriously. Its just using cries of 'shennanigans' to keep out the w/c vote via means gross and subtle. Same as they do to unions, hamstring them with a level of democratic accountability they never hold themselves to. Whither now the show of hands



As opposed to how it goes in the US, where its "now show the withered hands".


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 7, 2017)

agricola said:


> As opposed to how it goes in the US, where its "now show the withered hands".


nobody can beat Uncle Joe and Jeremy Beadle when it comes to the withered hand.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 8, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> that sort of shit drives me mad, the w/c are less likely to be registered to vote for many reasons that we don't need to bore off with because we know but you pay council tax. You are the only Dotcommie from 76 Arsehead road. Where's my fucking vote. They made us all re-register in kettering last year. The place is a tory safe seat ffs. Electoral fraud doesn't operate at lower levels like that of Tower Hamlets and the boot full of ballot papers as normal. Its easier to do it higher. The volounteers (250 quid! yay) are normally sorts who take our process very seriously. Its just using cries of 'shennanigans' to keep out the w/c vote via means gross and subtle. Same as they do to unions, hamstring them with a level of democratic accountability they never hold themselves to. Whither now the show of hands


Selection night not election night


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 8, 2017)

Dom Traynor said:


> Selection night not election night


oh I see. Then my wrath is misplaced. I shall have to put it to some other use. Might go and punch a tree.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 8, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> oh I see. Then my wrath is misplaced. I shall have to put it to some other use. Might go and punch a tree.


Ok


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 8, 2017)

treelover said:


> Any reports of the UKIP rally last night, numbers, etc?


So what numbers have you seen reported?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2017)

Nuttall's Hillsborough claims looking very shabby.

The only supporting evidence coming from _a 'UKIP official at the European parliament' _and Nuttall's father...who rather amusingly got his boy's age wrong.


> Ukip produced two statements. The statement from Nuttall’s father begins: *“I am and always have been the father of Paul Nuttall, leader of the UK Independence party.*” It goes on to state that Nuttall had been 13 years old at the time of the disaster. He was actually 12.
> 
> The second statement is said to be from a Ukip official at the European parliament. This said that the two men had been friends for 35 years and were both at Hillsborough.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2017)

That bloke just can't stop lying about himself, can he?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 10, 2017)

Lied about where he lives, lied about having a PhD, lied about being a lecturer, lied about playing football professionally. Seems compulsive to me.


----------



## two sheds (Feb 10, 2017)

*“I am and always have been the father of ..."
*


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2017)

two sheds said:


> *“I am and always have been the father of ...LIES"
> *


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Nuttall's Hillsborough claims looking very shabby.
> 
> The only supporting evidence coming from _a 'UKIP official at the European parliament' _and Nuttall's father...who rather amusingly got his boy's age wrong.
> ​


bet he was at orgeaves too


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 10, 2017)

It didn't do Trump any harm and this won't do Nuttall any harm, doesn't mean he will win but if he loses it won't be because of this.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 10, 2017)

Dom Traynor said:


> It didn't do Trump any harm and this won't do Nuttall any harm, doesn't mean he will win but if he loses it won't be because of this.


The other stuff probably won't but I think the Hillsborough one could. _If_ he's found to lie about that then I think that could be really harmful. 

Also transporting the success of Trump's methods across the here should be done with caution. For a start the UK political culture is different to the US there's no reason to simply assume what might play well there will necessarily play well here. Second, I don't think he's got Trump's front, who just comes out with shit and then moves on, in contrast Nuttall/UKIP have got bogged down in detail, wheeling out not very convincing witnesses, which then are shown up.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> The other stuff probably won't but I think the Hillsborough one could. *If he's found to lie about that then I think that could be really harmful. *
> 
> Also transporting the success of Trump's methods across the here should be done with caution. For a start the UK political culture is different to the US there's no reason to simply assume what might play well there will necessarily play well here. Second, I don't think he's got Trump's front, who just comes out with shit and then moves on, in contrast Nuttall/UKIP have got bogged down in detail, wheeling out not very convincing witnesses, which then are shown up.



Yep, I reckon that would sink him properly. 
Not sure how the claims/doubts are easily proven, through.


----------



## tim (Feb 10, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> bet he was at orgeaves too



And behind the wheel of the white Fiat Uno.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2017)




----------



## brogdale (Feb 10, 2017)

In his response to questioning, Nuttall's hyperbolic response sounds suspiciously like an attempt to close down further questioning,discussion or investiagtion....



> He claims to have been present, along with his father and two uncles, when 96 Liverpool fans were crushed to death, and has said only *“scum of the earth”* would suggest this was not true.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 10, 2017)

They're having a live hustings on the Daily Politics (probably the local version) on Sunday morning. Then there's a hustings at the local uni on Monday night. There was a hustings at the 6th Form College and Nuttsack didn't turn up. "Press engagements" apparently.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 10, 2017)

well he was probably busy saving puppies and manuscripts from the library at alexandria


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 10, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> The other stuff probably won't but I think the Hillsborough one could. _If_ he's found to lie about that then I think that could be really harmful.
> 
> Also transporting the success of Trump's methods across the here should be done with caution. For a start the UK political culture is different to the US there's no reason to simply assume what might play well there will necessarily play well here. Second, I don't think he's got Trump's front, who just comes out with shit and then moves on, in contrast Nuttall/UKIP have got bogged down in detail, wheeling out not very convincing witnesses, which then are shown up.


I'm not saying Nuttall is importing Trumpismo over to the UK or that such tactics would work if he did merely that being caught out in lies doesn't seem to hurt rightwingers and populists, perhaps better comparators would be Galloway or IDS both of whom got away with being polarising fibbers.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 11, 2017)

Ukip leader Paul Nuttall forced to move house over safety concerns


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 11, 2017)

Fucking snowflake

Also, "move out" *does exaggerated air-quotes*


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 12, 2017)

More about that Hillsborough cobblers from UKIP scumbag Paul Nuttall here


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2017)




----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 12, 2017)

Fucking hell.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2017)

teqniq said:


>



'kinnel.

Smethwick '64 meets Goebbels.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2017)

He looks to have deleted the retweet now - at least I can't see it on his timeline. However he's still retweeting stuff from the same guy.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 12, 2017)

teqniq said:


> He looks to have deleted the retweet now - at least I can't see it on his timeline. However he's still retweeting stuff from the same guy.


It's still there, amongst all the other filth.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 12, 2017)

brogdale said:


> It's still there, amongst all the other filth.


Ah right ta. I really couldn't be dealing with trawling though it all tbh.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 13, 2017)

Talking of tweets paul staines has a long reach so just consider what you tweet in case you get selected for whoever in twenty years time.


Labour's Stoke byelection candidate apologises for offensive tweets aimed at women


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Talking of tweets paul staines has a long reach so just consider what you tweet in case you get selected for whoever in twenty years time.
> 
> 
> Labour's Stoke byelection candidate apologises for offensive tweets aimed at women



Tweets he made years ago apparently, except Twitter hasn't been around for years: twat.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

it's been around 10 years. Either way, thin gruel.


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 13, 2017)

brogdale said:


> 'kinnel.
> 
> Smethwick '64 meets Goebbels.



He's apologised for not noticing the similarity between this tweet and the Smethwick slogan.

Ukip spokesman apologises for retweet of racially charged slogan

Other than that I guess he's OK with it.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

That's a disgraceful headline from the graun btw, clearly meant to make out he's some kind of rampant misogynist beast.


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> it's been around 10 years. Either way, thin gruel.



Ten years is a blink of the eye for people of my age, and by the look of him Snell too; as to his misogyny casual and petty rather than rampant, but misogyny nonetheless. Not the kind of idiot you might want to represent you, but not as unpleasant and useless as Nutall. Not living in Stoke, however, the ideaof Nutall beingableto humiliate himself and his party in parliament has acertain appeal. The problem with Douglas Arseswell, currently their only MP, is that he comes across asbeing fairly bright and not especially obnoxious.


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

Dogsauce said:


> He's apologised for not noticing the similarity between this tweet and the Smethwick slogan.
> 
> Ukip spokesman apologises for retweet of racially charged slogan
> 
> Other than that I guess he's OK with it.



Of course he is, he's a racist. I don't for a minute, however, believe his claim of ignorance with regard to Smethwick.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 13, 2017)

teqniq said:


>



Hasn't seen this till now.   Was about to post that ukip had managed that most rare of things, the moral high ground vis a vis Labour candidates sexist tweetery:
Labour's Stoke byelection candidate apologises for offensive tweets aimed at women
Seems not. Our kipptastic friends manage to drag defeat from the jaws of victory.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

TBH the most surprising thing about those Snell tweets is that they were still there - surely the first thing you do as a candidate is go through your twitter and delete anything that could be used against you? How many times has Guido used this exact technique now?


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 13, 2017)

tim said:


> Tweets he made years ago apparently, except Twitter hasn't been around for years: twat.


And you cant read farron or if you can you are the twat -just dont do it today if you want to be a clean skin down the road matey.




killer b said:


> TBH the most surprising thing about those Snell tweets is that they were still there - surely the first thing you do as a candidate is go through your twitter and delete anything that could be used against you? How many times has Guido used this exact technique now?



Well it also means he glossed over stuff if he had an nec interview because they are bound to ask about skeletons.But who helps staines with this stuff if its been deleted.?


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> TBH the most surprising thing about those Snell tweets is that they were still there - surely the first thing you do as a candidate is go through your twitter and delete anything that could be used against you? How many times has Guido used this exact technique now?



Since, he was presumably stupid enough to make such comments when he was a local councillor or perhaps even council leader, it would be optimistic to assume that merely being made a parliamentary candidate would lead him to suddenly start reflecting upon the need for self-censorship.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Well it also means he glossed over stuff if he had an nec interview because they are bound to ask about skeletons.


these were totally inconsequential tweets made 5 years ago when he was watching telly in his pants - there's no reason he'd remember them - that's why you'd do a sweep through them when you decided to run, to pick up stuff like this. 





> But who helps staines with this stuff if its been deleted.?


I don't know. I don't think there's anything that can be done to find people's deleted tweets after they've been deleted- unless someone's screenshotted them.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

tim said:


> Since, he was presumably stupid enough to make such comments when he was a local councillor or perhaps even council leader, it would be optimistic to assume that merely being made a parliamentary candidate would lead him to suddenly start reflecting upon the need for self-censorship.


you don't really understand twitter do you?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

tim said:


> Ten years is a blink of the eye for people of my age, and by the look of him Snell too; as to his misogyny casual and petty rather than rampant, but misogyny nonetheless. Not the kind of idiot you might want to represent you, but not as unpleasant and useless as Nutall. Not living in Stoke, however, the ideaof Nutall beingableto humiliate himself and his party in parliament has acertain appeal. The problem with Douglas Arseswell, currently their only MP, is that he comes across asbeing fairly bright and not especially obnoxious.



I can say Snell is not a misogynist. Stupid tweets if he had the idea back then he might ever want to stand, but then I don't suppose it was at the forefront of his mind.

And living in Stoke, I can say oh that it was such a luxury to be able to not give a shit if Nuttall won.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

also, it shouldn't be down to him to do it anyway - they should have staff at labour HQ who go through this shit


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

killer b said:


> you don't really understand twitter do you?



Of course I don't.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

He made the decision to stand very late in the day. Not to excuse the non-deletion of those tweets (I agree it should have been the very first thing he did), there simply wasn't very much time. The timetable for the selection process was brutal.


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I can say Snell is not a misogynist. Stupid tweets if he had the idea back then he might ever want to stand, but then I don't suppose it was at the forefront of his mind.
> 
> And living in Stoke, I can say oh that it was such a luxury to be able to not give a shit if Nuttall won.



His tweets are misogynistic, though. 

As to Nutall, I wouldn't like him as my MP either, my point was merely that he can do more damage to UKIP from inside parliament than from outside.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> _I can say Snell is not a misogynist_. Stupid tweets if he had the idea back then he might ever want to stand, but then I don't suppose it was at the forefront of his mind.


 That was my impression from the tweets, just the general waffle of twittering away about the telly really.  'Sour faced' isn't a great term, not is calling someone a 'girl', but it would be stretch to convict of him of sexism off the 3 comments they seem to have unearthed. All's fair in love and by-elections, but my point was more about the absolute brass necked shitting hypocrisy of ukip accusing anyone of, well, *anything*.


----------



## killer b (Feb 13, 2017)

tim said:


> Of course I don't.


It's not much different to here really - people talk about telly, argue, talk about politics, call each other cunts, muse about the great issues of the day, etc. And while in theory there could be a global audience for your tweets, in practice you're mostly talking to your mates so lots of people are totally unguarded (or were - stuff like this has changed it significantly).

He's made 21,000 tweets since 2009. I know I couldn't stand by my own record on twitter, and I've made barely 2000.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

I agree, those tweets are shit - you'll get no argument from me there. I can only speak from having known him for a long time.


----------



## treelover (Feb 13, 2017)

Nigel Farage (EX TORY).
Stuart Wheeler (EX TORY).
David Silvester (EX TORY).
Mark Reckless (EX TORY).
Douglas Carswell (EX TORY).
Amjad Bashir (WAS EX TORY NOW DEFECTED BACK TO TORIES).
Paul Richard Oakden (EX TORY).
Bill Etheridge (EX TORY).
Roger Helmer (EX TORY).
Janice Atkinson (EX TORY).
Neil Hamilton (EX TORY).
William Legge ( EX TORY).
Mike Taylor (EX TORY).
Jean Taylor (EX TORY).
Michael McCabe (EX TORY).
Peter Rodberg (EX TORY),
David Campbell.Bannerman (EX TORY).
David Meacock (EX TORY).
Michael Skeels (EX TORY).
Dawn Skeels (EX TORY).
Steve St Clair-Haslam (EX TORY).
Eric Munday (EX TORY).
Caroline Jones (EX TORY).
Chris Smart (EX TORY).
Suzanne Evans (EX TORY).
Richard Hilton (EX TORY).
Richard Barnes (EX TORY).
Paul Oakley (EX TORY).
Alexander Fermor.Hesketh (EX TORY).
Edward Board (EX TORY).
Ben Walker (EX TORY).
Ed Rose (EX TORY).
Will Davison (EX TORY).
Jim Tucker (EX TORY).
Chris Neal (EX TORY).
Mel Molyneux (EX TORY).
Chris Lagdon (EX TORY).
Ron ScrIvens (EX TORY).
Ian Molyneux (EX TORY).
Paul BeIlls (EX TORY).
Graham Dawson (EX TORY).
Lee Gilroy (EX TORY).
Karl Williamson (EX TORY).
David Sprason (EX TORY).
Michael Read (EX TORY).
Terry Goodman (EX TORY).
Edward Griffin (EX TORY). 
Stuart Mutton (EX TORY). 
Brian Silvaster (EX TORY). 
Tim Aker (EX TORY).
Jacqui Baxter (EX TORY).
Caroline Dyos (EX TORY).

Paul Nuttall (EX TORY). 
first stood as a Tory back in 2002.

Posted elsewhere, the party of the working class?


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

Wilf said:


> That was my impression from the tweets, just the general waffle of twittering away about the telly really.  'Sour faced' isn't a great term, not is calling someone a 'girl', but it would be stretch to convict of him of sexism off the 3 comments they seem to have unearthed. All's fair in love and by-elections, but my point was more about the absolute brass necked shitting hypocrisy of ukip accusing anyone of, well, *anything*.





killer b said:


> It's not much different to here really - people talk about telly, argue, talk about politics, call each other cunts, muse about the great issues of the day, etc. And while in theory there could be a global audience for your tweets, in practice you're mostly talking to your mates so lots of people are totally unguarded (or were - stuff like this has changed it significantly).
> 
> He's made 21,000 tweets since 2009. I know I couldn't stand by my own record on twitter, and I've made barely 2000.



The difference is it's all said under your own name, although with idiots like me that is at least partially true here. I suppose what I don't understand is why someone who is politicallyactive, albeit at a local level, and so likely to have political enemies would be so casual about public  pronouncements

With regard to the dangers of Twitter my real sympathy, as I've mentioned several times before, goes to our own "Peter Dow" who has got a criminal conviction for making a silly comment about the queen Peter Dow's political defence -v- "criminal tweets" charge


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

treelover said:


> Nigel Farage (EX TORY).
> Stuart Wheeler (EX TORY).
> David Silvester (EX TORY).
> Mark Reckless (EX TORY).
> ...



No party of shits, but we all know that already


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 13, 2017)

treelover said:


> <snipped>
> Paul Nuttall (EX TORY).
> first stood as a Tory back in 2002.
> 
> Posted elsewhere, the party of the working class?


Considering they've had hundreds of councillors elected over the last four years what exactly does that list prove, that there are former Tories present in the party. No shit. 

If you're going to make some claim about who votes for/is a member/where the leadership of UKIP comes from do it properly. Don't just post some random list of names. I mean you've got MPs, MEPs, Welsh Assembly members (councillors?) all mixed up there.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

I've told him indoors that it would never be a good idea for him to stand (not that he plans to) because while his tweets are impeccable mine are a fucking disaster zone and there's no way in hell I'd censor myself and it'd be wall-to-wall "Candidate's wife calls all party members CUNTS" across the front page of every morning edition 

*bookmarks this post in case it ever needs deleting*


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I've told him indoors that it would never be a good idea for him to stand (not that he plans to) because while his tweets are impeccable mine are a fucking disaster zone and there's no way in hell I'd censor myself and it'd be wall-to-wall "Candidate's wife calls all party members CUNTS" across the front page of every morning edition
> 
> *bookmarks this post in case it ever needs deleting*




Are you really Ms Vintage Paw? If not you probably needn't worry.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

Am I really what? Sorry, think I'm being thick and don't understand the q.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 13, 2017)

You would think the Party would be street savvy enough to go thru the twitter history of any by election candidate as soon as they were selected.I mean the future of civilisation/the future of the party is at stake.

If he had cleaned his account up staines is very very bad news -though what can be done about him isnt clear.He seems to be very ukip orientated these days .


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

There's been a hustings this evening at the local uni. It was pegged as one of the big ones, but I don't know where the tickets were advertised because it seems only half the people there were from inside the constituency, and the parties have got a bunch of people down for support. If it was only advertised amongst the parties it's a bit shit - no votes will have been won over, and everyone knew who they would vote for already. Anyway, it'll be reported on I guess, extending its reach.

Highlight of the evening was Chris Spence asking Nuttall about torture, to which Nuttall said that if he felt he could get some intel about a potential attack, he would torture, or sanction the torture of, a 10 year old child soldier. Oh dear, Paul. Oh dear. "So you'd torture a 10 year old?" Whoops.

Gareth was roundly roasted about his tweets. He gave a very good answer about the women ones, saying that you do a lot of growing up in your 20s, and since he was leader of Newcastle Council he put money into women's services, fought for low paid women, and stood shoulder-to-shoulder with his sisters (he has a long history of good trade unionism). It was precisely the right reply, really.

Gareth's pretty laid back about the tweet stuff. At a meeting when Corbyn came down he joked "you should have seen the ones I _did_ delete," and has said that if anyone's writing a book on social media he'll be the example they use about how not to do it. Will it sway some votes? Honestly I doubt it. The people who are going to vote UKIP are going to vote that way anyway. If he ends up as MP it could cause some annoyances more generally, but for the local race it's unlikely to do much.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> You would think the Party would be street savvy enough to go thru the twitter history of any by election candidate as soon as they were selected.I mean the future of civilisation/the future of the party is at stake.
> 
> If he had cleaned his account up staines is very very bad news -though what can be done about him isnt clear.He seems to be very ukip orientated these days .



Here's the timetable: Gareth decided to run right before the deadline. The long list was drawn up the day after. The interviews happened in London the day after that, and the shortlist was announced that night. The selection was the night after. And yes, plenty of people do understand the importance of a clean bill of social media health, but in the very short time frame many things were overlooked. This is only going to become more prevalent as time goes on, and more and more of our MPs have spent their formative years online. Anyway, it doesn't seem to have done Mhairi Black much harm.


----------



## gosub (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> ....
> Highlight of the evening was Chris Spence asking Nuttall about torture, to which Nuttall said that if he felt he could get some intel about a potential attack, he would torture, or sanction the torture of, a 10 year old child soldier. Oh dear, Paul. Oh dear. "So you'd torture a 10 year old?" Whoops....
> .



wtf.  24 has a lot to answer for.  Who would have a ten year old sit in when planning an attack?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

The way the question was worded was apparently quite canny. I wasn't there, so I'm not certain exactly, but it was along the lines of asking about what he'd sanction a soldier to carry out that he wouldn't be prepared to carry out himself, with the emphasis about it being a 10 yr old child soldier waterboarded while strapped to a chair or something. It was worded a bit like a trap really, and he fell into it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 13, 2017)

treelover said:


> Posted elsewhere, the party of the working class?



can't possibly be.

theresa may says the tories are


----------



## gosub (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> The way the question was worded was apparently quite canny. I wasn't there, so I'm not certain exactly, but it was along the lines of asking about what he'd sanction a soldier to carry out that he wouldn't be prepared to carry out himself, with the emphasis about it being a 10 yr old child soldier waterboarded while strapped to a chair or something. It was worded a bit like a trap really, and he fell into it.


found it, last question 1:13:45  WATCH: Candidates clash at biggest by-election hustings yet


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

The Monster Raving Loony dude, during the opening statements, decided to read out the BNP candidate's statement (he was sitting next to him). When asked how to aid the NHS he said he'd turn the civic centre into a space port and invite aliens here to bring new nurses. I know who I'm voting for.

For a question on integrating adult social health care, the Christian People's Alliance dude said he'd bring Kingdom of the Lord to Stoke-on-Trent so the blessings of the Lord could heal people.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 13, 2017)




----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 13, 2017)

My ex-housemate, Alex, pissed on the steps of the civic centre when we were coming home from the student union one night. She didn't care there was a camera.

tbf we lived a fucking hike away from there.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 13, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> The Monster Raving Loony dude, during the opening statements, decided to read out the BNP candidate's statement (he was sitting next to him). When asked how to aid the NHS he said he'd turn the civic centre into a space port and invite aliens here to bring new nurses. I know who I'm voting for.
> 
> For a question on integrating adult social health care, the Christian People's Alliance dude said he'd bring Kingdom of the Lord to Stoke-on-Trent so the blessings of the Lord could heal people.



tbh, both of them sound more credible than the tories...


----------



## ska invita (Feb 13, 2017)

I was going to post a thing that Paul Mason said this week at a Novara Media panel about Stoke UKIP voters...

“They’re not working class Tories… most of the UKIP people are either people who haven’t voted or have flipped in a radical way from Labour. They are toe-rags, basically. They are the bloke who nicks your bike.
“No, seriously, that’s who it is, it’s the bloke who does all the anti-social things.“

...but didnt bother.

Now it turns out the comments have got back to UKIP and the Telegraph are helping pinning Labour to the mast over it
Labour now third most popular party among working class voters, poll reveals


> Commenting on the remarks Ukip's media spokesman said: "Paul Mason has lifted the lid on what the radical left think about long time Labour voters who have lost faith with that party and moved across to UKIP.
> 
> "He thinks they are “toe-rags”, presumably for feeling a sense of patriotism, for feeling concerned about open door immigration and for supporting Brexit. “Any voters who care about these issues but were pondering whether to still vote Labour have their answer:
> 
> "Mr Mason and the radical metropolitan left think they are scum. We in UKIP understand and share their concerns and will always treat them with respect.”



---

The quote was very bizarre but is _very slightly_ taken out of context - well, there is some bigger context, if not actually taken out of context....theres a bit theyve edited out in that quote for example at the dots... 
you can listen to it in full in the link - he says it right in the first few minutes


----------



## tim (Feb 13, 2017)

tim said:


> Are you really Ms Vintage Paw? If not you probably needn't worry.



It was just a comnent on the fact that unlike on twitter you are unlikely to be posting here under your real name.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 14, 2017)

oic - I understand now.

It's not strictly/entirely my real name on twitter, but people know who I am. And I make no secret on here - I follow plenty of urbs on twitter and vice versa. The likes of Staines wouldn't have much trouble putting two-and-two together. But it's neither here nor there, since it's not an issue anyway.


----------



## treelover (Feb 14, 2017)

ska invita said:


> I was going to post a thing that Paul Mason said this week at a Novara Media panel about Stoke UKIP voters...
> 
> “They’re not working class Tories… most of the UKIP people are either people who haven’t voted or have flipped in a radical way from Labour. They are toe-rags, basically. They are the bloke who nicks your bike.
> “No, seriously, that’s who it is, it’s the bloke who does all the anti-social things.“
> ...



If that gets traction it could do some real damage, going by the package on newsnight, some ex LP voters think that is what the party thinks of them anyway

Paul Mason is getting to be a bit of a loose cannon.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2017)

Even taking into context, it was a bizarre and ill-thought line to go down. Mason's turned into a right cock imo the last two years. UKIP are cunts enough without lending them this sort of ammo.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2017)

Still, easier to do shit discussions for Novara and crap Grauniad columns than actually getting out there in communities and trying to solve fucking economic and social problems people face.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 14, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Even taking into context, it was a bizarre and ill-thought line to go down. Mason's turned into a right cock imo the last two years. UKIP are cunts enough without lending them this sort of ammo.



He's been all over the place with some of the stuff he's been saying recently. I saw a thing yesterday where someone was saying "Paul Mason is right, we've pandered to racists for too long and we're a nastier country as a result" -- only a few months ago Mason was peddling some immigration fuckery though, I seem to remember.


----------



## ska invita (Feb 14, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Still, easier to do shit discussions for Novara and crap Grauniad columns than actually getting out there in communities and trying to solve fucking economic and social problems people face.


as it happens the context of what he was saying was (IIRC)
 hes not going to do anymore easy lefty platforms for a while, hes only going to talk in ukip areas with potential ukip voters....
that those conversations require a different language and (IIRC) "intersectional feminists'" wont be comfortable with the way those conversations go
that his home town (lee?) never had a far right vote in 100 years, the a few years back registered a little BNP vote and now has 9000 UKIP voters...
he then says, I know exactly who in his town votes Ukip...what streets...something about ex mining areas...and the people who voted ukip are toe-rags

I think the point he was trying to make is broadly the one you are, though he did it in a very clumsy way (that's the most generous I can be).


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2017)

ska invita said:


> I think the point he was trying to make is broadly the one you are, though he did it in a very clumsy way (that's the most generous I can be).



Well they're going to welcome him with open arms from London, talking to people where their communities and industries have been shafted by neoliberalism, and on top of that they feel they're being called 'toe-rags' for voting UKIP, or that they're 'bad working class'!


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Well they're going to welcome him with open arms from London, talking to people where their communities and industries have been shafted by neoliberalism, and on top of that they feel they're being called 'toe-rags' for voting UKIP, or that they're 'bad working class'!


If only these _toe-rags _would embrace the existential threat to capitalism posed by open-source platforms.


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2017)

brogdale said:


> If only these _toe-rags _would embrace the existential threat to capitalism posed by open-source platforms.



Novara? Yeah, still driving one mate.


----------



## cantsin (Feb 14, 2017)

ska invita said:


> as it happens the context of what he was saying was (IIRC)
> hes not going to do anymore easy lefty platforms for a while, hes only going to talk in ukip areas with potential ukip voters....
> that those conversations require a different language and (IIRC) "intersectional feminists'" wont be comfortable with the way those conversations go
> that his home town (lee?) never had a far right vote in 100 years, the a few years back registered a little BNP vote and now has 9000 UKIP voters...
> ...



that at least makes some vague sense, ie : Mason wasn't talking purely from a position of hostility, but what a daft way to frame it, all things considered.

What was the event itself like ?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 14, 2017)

Nuttall forced to admit he lied about having close friends who died at Hillsborough (and being there himself):
Ukip leader admits claim that he lost close friends at Hillsborough was false
Edit: he _doesn't_ admit he lied about being there, but the evidence is lining up against him.  Prediction: he'll be forced into admitting he just had a sense of 'solidarity' with those who lost loved ones.


----------



## tim (Feb 14, 2017)

Nuttall admits that he lied about losing close friends at Hillsborough

Paul Nuttall admits claim he lost close friends at Hillsborough is not true

Surely, he's fucked up his chances now


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

Showing just how low.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

Shithead.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

Just as well he's spending so much time away from Merseyside.


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 14, 2017)

bet he's one of those cunts who swallowed the state and media lies 100% as well and argued people down over the truth etc.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> bet he's one of those cunts who swallowed the state and media lies 100% as well.


_The truth_


----------



## stethoscope (Feb 14, 2017)

With even such a shitcunt of a UKIP candidate, it'll be interesting to see how well/bad Labour do still. Low turnout I expect.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

Interesting that the cunt was squirming on about having people who would stand up in court and back his claim of being at Hillsborough...wonder why he hasn't sued anyone for slander, then?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 14, 2017)

Even though he's now downgraded to 'someone he knew' rather than good friends, he hasn't said who it was afaik.  In the circumstances, if he really was even just an _acquaintance_ of someone who died, he'd be entitled to name them.  Lying, dirty, grubby shitcunt.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 14, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> bet he's one of those cunts who swallowed the state and media lies 100% as well and argued people down over the truth etc.



Well he was a tory back when they were still in full force arguing that it was all because of the fans. Standing for the tories, no less.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 14, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> With even such a shitcunt of a UKIP candidate, it'll be interesting to see how well/bad Labour do still. Low turnout I expect.



It's going to be an incredibly low turnout anyway. We got the lowest in the country during the GE. So it's going to be less than that, and that was low.

The fight for votes happened a long time ago, it's not happening in these 4 weeks. A few might be swayed, and a few more might come out to stop Nuttall when ordinarily they probably wouldn't have bothered. But UKIP's support is shored up through things external to a few leaflets and doorknockers and those minds won't be changed because "Nuttall did a bad thing." And Stokies might sound a bit like Scousers, but they don't have any loyalty to them or Hillsborough beyond any your average footie fan might have. The same people doing their nut over Tristram being a parachute are the ones defending Nuttall being a parachute. So Nuttall said he'd sanction the torture of a 10 year old? They don't care. So would they (or so they think), it's them or us. So Nuttall potentially committed electoral fraud when he put that Stoke address as his home address? So what? It was that elite toff Michael Crick who came down here being all patronising making a big deal of it, and we hate those people.

Liberals (not you, lol) make the mistake time and time again thinking that everyone finds the same things abhorrent. They're so blinkered to their way being the obvious right way. And yeah, maybe a few people might be swayed by this stuff, and it's worth trying to convince people, but the large majority of these votes were won and lost a long time ago.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 14, 2017)

So in short Vintage Paw , do you feel like turning on your future-predicting machine and sticking your neck out on who'll win in this by-election? Or is it all too uncertain even for locals on the ground to predict safely?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Shithead.




Like I said elsewhere, compulsive liar


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Like I said elsewhere, compulsive liar


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2017)

brogdale said:


>




HE is still claiming that he is afaik, just stating that the close friend bit is false


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

J Ed said:


> HE is still claiming that he is afaik, just stating that the close friend bit is false


He's got to stop the truth emerging for 8 days; can't see him doing it tbh.



> Steve Kelly, a member of the Hillsborough Justice campaign whose brother Michael died in the Leppings Lane end, urged the under-pressure Ukip leader to provide further evidence if he was at Hillsborough that day.
> 
> *“He’s claimed that he can back all this up. Well, if that’s the case, that’s all he’s got to do to clear his name,*” he said.


----------



## J Ed (Feb 14, 2017)

brogdale said:


> He's got to stop the truth emerging for 8 days; can't see him doing it tbh.
> 
> ​



Question is, how much do the people of Stoke care about Hillsborough? I would imagine they do a bit, and it's a sign of general untrustworthiness, but is it enough to stop him being elected if he otherwise would win?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Question is, how much do the people of Stoke care about Hillsborough? I would imagine they do a bit, and it's a sign of general untrustworthiness, but is it enough to stop him being elected if he otherwise would win?


Alot of people who enter the ballot box _think_ the person they're voting for is a bit of a cunt...it'll be different with Nuttall.


----------



## tim (Feb 14, 2017)

brogdale said:


> He's got to stop the truth emerging for 8 days; can't see him doing it tbh.
> 
> ​



Except, it doesn't seem totally improbable that he was one of the thousands of Liverpool fans at the match and that he might be able to prove it. In which case he'll let the pressure build a bit more, produce the proof, and portray himself as a victim of political bullying.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

tim said:


> Except, it doesn't seem totally improbable that he was one of the thousands of Liverpool fans at the match and that he might be able to prove it. In which case he'll let the pressure build a bit more, produce the proof, and portray himself as a victim of political bullying.


Maybe, but form suggests otherwise.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

How would you go about _proving _that you were at a particular match in 1989?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 14, 2017)

Patsy found.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 15, 2017)

tim said:


> Except, it doesn't seem totally improbable that he was one of the thousands of Liverpool fans at the match and that he might be able to prove it. In which case he'll let the pressure build a bit more, produce the proof, and portray himself as a victim of political bullying.


He would have provided the proof by now if he had it (whatever that would be anyway) he hasn't got the bottle, even if that was a good strategy. 

Will it cost him the election? Not by itself and not if it had gone away sooner but in my view it will have damaged him slightly I'm sure as he does look more untrustworthy every day, but voters will give a politician a lot of leeway if they like what else they saying.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 15, 2017)

He is an utter arse and I'm in favour of putting it about that he claims he was there at the destruction of the monasteries, the civil war, the Blitz (he probably pulled people from the wreckage), Kings Cross, 9/11... and the latest avalanche in the Alps.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> How would you go about _proving _that you were at a particular match in 1989?



You'd think he'd at least be able to have found a couple of people who supposedly travelled with him on the day. Or an even bigger group of people willing to say, 'yeah, I saw him the week after the game, he was in bits'.  Unlikely there's a paper trail still there, but he would surely have a few people he could at least roll out to save him _politically_.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 15, 2017)

J Ed said:


> Question is, how much do the people of Stoke care about Hillsborough? I would imagine they do a bit, and it's a sign of general untrustworthiness, but is it enough to stop him being elected if he otherwise would win?


It's not going to stop UKIP supporters but those who are less supporters and more tempted to vote UKIP as a protest vote (i.e. the soft support), I can see it have some effect on them.


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 15, 2017)

(I should add that each time this thread pops up on my newsfeed I get a little thrill from the title, all over again.)


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> It's going to be an incredibly low turnout anyway. We got the lowest in the country during the GE. So it's going to be less than that, and that was low.
> 
> The fight for votes happened a long time ago, it's not happening in these 4 weeks. A few might be swayed, and a few more might come out to stop Nuttall when ordinarily they probably wouldn't have bothered. But UKIP's support is shored up through things external to a few leaflets and doorknockers and those minds won't be changed because "Nuttall did a bad thing." And Stokies might sound a bit like Scousers, but they don't have any loyalty to them or Hillsborough beyond any your average footie fan might have. The same people doing their nut over Tristram being a parachute are the ones defending Nuttall being a parachute. So Nuttall said he'd sanction the torture of a 10 year old? They don't care. So would they (or so they think), it's them or us. So Nuttall potentially committed electoral fraud when he put that Stoke address as his home address? So what? It was that elite toff Michael Crick who came down here being all patronising making a big deal of it, and we hate those people.
> 
> Liberals (not you, lol) make the mistake time and time again thinking that everyone finds the same things abhorrent. They're so blinkered to their way being the obvious right way. And yeah, maybe a few people might be swayed by this stuff, and it's worth trying to convince people, but the large majority of these votes were won and lost a long time ago.


Why do you reckon turnout is so low in this part of the world? Anything you can think of that would change that?  And is there anything that might change it before the BE?


----------



## Dogsauce (Feb 15, 2017)

Don't worry, Hillsborough wasn't that big a deal anyway.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

Nuttall lies about his lying...



> Paul Nuttall, North West Euro MP for UKIP, said: "This is a cover-up of a cover-up.
> "What are the Tories frightened of? The people of Liverpool will be disgusted by these cowardly moves to hide the truth.
> "Revealing the facts on Hillsborough is hardly a matter of national security, it is a matter of natural justice."
> "The briefings in question are the private memos that were sent to the then Prime Minister Margaret Thatcher.
> "Without them being made public we will never get to the bottom of that appalling tragedy when 96 Liverpool fans including *close personal friends of mine lost their lives.*"


 
"The people of Liverpool will be disgusted by these cowardly moves to hide the truth."


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2017)

Whoops.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 15, 2017)

Not sure if this takes it any further: Liverpool Echo interview where he says he was there with his Father _and 2 uncles_ (think he's already said his Father backs him up)
UKIP's Paul Nuttall admits claims he "lost close personal friend" at Hillsborough are FALSE
Still nobody outside his family backing him up on the attendance issue and no name from him in terms of the 'personal contact' who died.

Edit: sorry, no, the bit about the uncles has been in the news for a couple of days. Not new.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 15, 2017)

Imagine Labour will have had fevered discussions on how far to push this.  As mentioned by brogdale on the last page, it's hard to prove a negative in terms of attendance. Suspect the story isn't going to go much further, unless of course nuttall miraculously 'finds' his ticket stub.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

Forensic undermining of Nuttall's latest lie about the untruths he told over his false claim.

Really wouldn't put any money on him actually having been at Hillsborough.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

Our local paper, The Sentinel, is edited by a total right-wing cunt. No surprise then, that the extent of coverage about this Hillsborough stuff is in a 2-part article shared with news about Gareth's tweets, whereby the tweets stuff takes up the majority of the article, and Nuttall's stuff is described as a gaffe. 

The fucker is retweeting guido shit about Gareth atm.

Yesterday they did a story about the Tories focusing on literacy in the city, with a picture of the Tory candidate, Brereton. 

No one should underestimate the sway the paper will have with local people. Fucking shitcunts.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> Why do you reckon turnout is so low in this part of the world? Anything you can think of that would change that?  And is there anything that might change it before the BE?



Maybe it's the nature of the industry around here - I don't know the history of trade unionism wrt the potbanks and that. Obviously there was a lot of mining here, and steel with Shelton BAR, all long since gone. There's still a bit of pottery work, but nowhere near as much. I expect it's a combination of things. Labour taking the place for granted for so long (although not necessarily in the most recent years, where they campaign all year round). The obvious stuff about the decimation of industry and communities ripped apart - and there's been one heck of a lot of compulsory purchase over the last decade, where the land now stands largely empty because there's no money to redevelop. Maybe the physical structure of the city has something to do with it as well, with our 6 towns (or 5, depending on who you talk to), and no real focal point (I can't understate the effect this 6 town structure has on the shitness of the city in various ways), with all 6 towns being left to rot and fierce tribalism between different areas. It's a very poor city, and has seen zero investment for a long time (there's a bit more going on in Hanley (which is the city centre and one of the 6 towns) recently - we've got a Cineworld ). There's a strong sense of local pride and identity, but it doesn't translate into engagement. But then, no one outside of Stoke wants to engage with us, so perhaps that has something to do with it. Who the fuck knows anything about Stoke?

What would change it? Stuff that addresses all of the above, I suppose. It's a problem long in the making, and can't be undone quickly - certainly not in time for the by-election. idk, maybe we'll be surprised and turnout will be up since it's a highly publicised event? Grassroots engagement with people, outreach, etc. idk what that looks like.

Ken Loach is here tonight giving a free screening of I, Daniel Blake (organised by Momentum). What I want to see is more of this engagement from outside _after_ the election is done. I don't want Stoke to go back to being that place in the midlands no one gives a shit about. But it will. And then everyone will say with zero awareness, "but how did it get so bad in Stoke?"


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 15, 2017)

Thanks, Vintage Paw - that's interesting, and depressing. 





> Who the fuck knows anything about Stoke?


Not enough people, clearly.


----------



## treelover (Feb 15, 2017)

> What would change it? Stuff that addresses all of the above, I suppose. It's a problem long in the making, and can't be undone quickly - certainly not in time for the by-election. idk, maybe we'll be surprised and turnout will be up since it's a highly publicised event? Grassroots engagement with people, outreach, etc. idk what that looks like.



Another TRUMP! demo?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

The Loach thing is at the Jubilee Working Men's Club, and there's an anti-UKIP gig on there on Saturday night too. Someone from Syriza London is going to be speaking. It's tabled as 'cross-party' but we all know it's probably only going to be Labour folk.

Still, more of that kind of thing wouldn't go amiss. Stuff that people can come along to, situated in the community, with left ideas being talked about. UKIP's rise has in part been because of the shift of the centre to the right, and the normalisation of a right-wing terms of debate. Left wing talking points have been shoved out of the way, to the point where the most basic of democratic socialist stuff Corbyn comes out with is considered loony left (I mean, I know the left are always demonised in the media, but this stuff is pervasive amongst regular people too, and that's the big problem). Just the action of having lots of opportunities for left ideas to be talked about and considered normal and for people to have a pint or two in their community and talk about shit - all that will have a drip-drip effect. It's not 'the' answer, but it's part of an answer. You can't expect people to just suddenly start being left wing or engaging with stuff. It happens after a culmination of things, just like the move to the right has.

Right now I don't have high hopes of this stuff going on after the election though, whatever the result.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

Punters obviously think Nuttall's Hillsborough fabrications have damaged him...


----------



## andysays (Feb 15, 2017)

bluescreen said:


> He is an utter arse and I'm in favour of putting it about that he claims he was there at the destruction of the monasteries, the civil war, the Blitz (he probably pulled people from the wreckage), Kings Cross, 9/11... and the latest avalanche in the Alps.



Apparently he was also at the Sex Pistols' gig at the Lesser Free Trade Hall *and* the "Midnight Special" at the Screen on the Green


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

I've found out a bit more about potbank trade unionism. It was CATU, and it was shit. The way employment was set up in the potbanks was so as to deliberately pit people against each other, with weird pay grades and levels of job. So it was really difficult to properly organise, which was the goal. So there was a culture of competition amongst the workforce, and CATU themselves were absolute shit, wouldn't answer the phone, all sorts.

Stoke's a pottery town before it's a mining or steel town, and so that's the backdrop it has wrt trade unionism and collective workplace solidarity: there was none (or very little). Probably explains quite a bit.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 15, 2017)

Source of brogdale 's poll (for quick reference)

How reliable are betdata do you think? Any other polls about?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Punters obviously think Nuttall's Hillsborough fabrications have damaged him...
> 
> View attachment 100536



I saw that earlier. I also saw another that had the LibDems move into 2nd. Which... really?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I saw that earlier. I also saw another that had the LibDems move into 2nd. Which... really?


It's mentioned in revelations 16:3-5


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Source of brogdale 's poll (for quick reference)
> 
> How reliable are betdata do you think? Any other polls about?


It's not a poll.


----------



## William of Walworth (Feb 15, 2017)

brogdale said:


> It's not a poll.




Just their odds then is it? Thus unreliable, surely. But that's true of any polls/odds alike I suppose.

Would still like to see any actual polls, no doubt there'll be others ahead of next Thursday.

(Apols for not digging any out myself, for the moment, but I've got  to go to bed shortly ... )


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Just their odds then is it? Thus unreliable, surely. But that's true of any polls/odds alike I suppose.


It is what it is, a reliable record of punters' sentiment as expressed by £ wagered.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

Liverpool mayor calls on Paul Nuttall to resign as MEP over Hillsborough claims


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Liverpool mayor calls on Paul Nuttall to resign as MEP over Hillsborough claims


Radio guy nails it...


> “I was disappointed that he plays the victim very quickly, saying he was offended and his family are upset. That’s what’s gone down very badly. It suddenly becomes a personal thing about him,” said David Easson, of Radio City News.
> 
> Easson said that Nuttall had asked to go on the show in an attempt to counter suggestions that he was not at Hillsborough.


----------



## teqniq (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Liverpool mayor calls on Paul Nuttall to resign as MEP over Hillsborough claims



But I reckon he won't, he has no shame. Also he's already deployed the 'it's somebody else's fault' card.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

There was something floating around earlier, showing he's got form for blaming other people for the stuff he says and writes.

He wrote an essay or something at uni, and he referenced David Irving. When challenged about it he said it wasn't him, his girlfriend got the references off the internet and put them in there.

Come on, Nuttsack, you don't look good whichever version of that story is true.


----------



## killer b (Feb 15, 2017)

it isn't the first time he's even employed the _I didn't write that/it must've been someone in PR _gambit is it? Sure I remember him coming out with something similar...


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

Yeah, about the "I want to privatise the NHS" statement on his website. Apparently written by someone else too. Despite the video footage, etc.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

It is heartening, I must say, to see him being dog-piled so thoroughly.

Might have been useful if this shit had started back when ukip were in their fledgling days, rather than treating them like an equal partner at the table.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

Media: "Later on the show we have Farage, telling us about why he's awesome."

Also the media: "Later on the show we have Jess Phillips, explaining why Corbyn is a sack of shite."

Also the media: "Later on the show we try to work out why the working classes have abandoned Labour and become so right wing, cuz we really can't work it out."


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

paulnuttallmep.com as of this evening:


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 15, 2017)

One of Eddie Hitler's former history teachers claims he referenced David Irving in an essay about the causes of the holocaust and then when confronted about it he blamed his girlfriend for downloading the references to Irving’s book from the internet. Just like how he's now blaming others for the content of his website.

My student; the anti-Semite


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

^ Yep, that's what I was referring to earlier.

I wonder if it's always women he gets to take the fall for him or if it's just a coincidence?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> ^ Yep, that's what I was referring to earlier.
> 
> I wonder if it's always women he gets to take the fall for him or if it's just a coincidence?


When it emerges that he wasn't ever in that upper tier he'll blame his mum for not letting him go.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> ^ Yep, that's what I was referring to earlier.
> 
> I wonder if it's always women he gets to take the fall for him or if it's just a coincidence?



Assuming he was actually telling the truth he admitted that somebody else did his research for him. And whether he told the truth or not, he snitched on his girlfriend. And if he lied, he knowingly promoted a holocaust denier. He comes up rotten however you look it at.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yeah, about the "I want to privatise the NHS" statement on his website. Apparently written by someone else too. Despite the video footage, etc.


And the playing professionally for Tranmere and the completed PhD


----------



## tim (Feb 15, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I saw that earlier. I also saw another that had the LibDems move into 2nd. Which... really?



Which really sugests that they still know how to take advantage of any opportunity.  Maybe Chris Reynard has been rehabilitated and been sent out to spin stories to his gullible chums in the media.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 15, 2017)

I've probably mentioned this already, but the LibDem literature is all focused on going after Labour rather than Nuttall. I mean, it makes sense, but it's still a dastardly thing to do and shows up exactly what they mean when they talk about a 'progressive alliance'.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 16, 2017)

PaulNuttallMemories (@NuttallMemories) on Twitter


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> And the playing professionally for Tranmere and the completed PhD


I'll be pitching a 'Celebrity Fake CVs' format to Channel 5. 'In episode one, Paul Nuttall goes up against Iain Duncan Smith and Gordon Ramsay.'


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'll be pitching a 'Celebrity Fake CVs' format to Channel 5. 'In episode one, Paul Nuttall goes up against Iain Duncan Smith and Gordon Ramsay.'


_Monkey tennis?_


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 16, 2017)

Youth Hostelling with Paul Nuttalls


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

The Great British Fake Off.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

Who Do You think You Are (Not)


----------



## treelover (Feb 16, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> It is heartening, I must say, to see him being dog-piled so thoroughly.
> 
> Might have been useful if this shit had started back when ukip were in their fledgling days, rather than treating them like an equal partner at the table.



Expect them to return it in spades, with Corbyn, McDonnell though.


----------



## treelover (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> One of Eddie Hitler's former history teachers claims he referenced David Irving in an essay about the causes of the holocaust and then when confronted about it he blamed his girlfriend for downloading the references to Irving’s book from the internet. Just like how he's now blaming others for the content of his website.
> 
> My student; the anti-Semite




Not defending Nuttall, but Dave Renton is ex long time SWP member, barrister, etc.


----------



## killer b (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Not defending Nuttall, but Dave Renton is ex long time SWP member, barrister, etc.


Does that mean his article is unreliable?


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

killer b said:


> Does that mean his article is unreliable?


it means that treelover doesn't like him. he has it in for anyone to the left of neil kinnock


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Not defending Nuttall, but Dave Renton is ex long time SWP member, barrister, etc.


an ex long time swp member? and that invalidates his views how?


----------



## killer b (Feb 16, 2017)

He's got two settings atm, it's dull as fuck:

1. Something about the SWP
2. Something about _I, Daniel Blake_


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

Jeff Robinson said:


> One of Eddie Hitler's former history teachers claims he referenced David Irving in an essay about the causes of the holocaust and then when confronted about it he blamed his girlfriend for downloading the references to Irving’s book from the internet. Just like how he's now blaming others for the content of his website.
> 
> My student; the anti-Semite


I'll start with the obligatory 'I'm Not Defending Paul Nuttall' declaration.  A. he's lying and blaming others to get out of the shit he's caused B. he is when all's said and done, quoting David Irving and C. he's Paul Nuttall.  But Renton should have stuck with that - it's enough to show he's a racist cunt. I did think the bit about the Hungarian uprising was a bit of a stretch.


----------



## treelover (Feb 16, 2017)

Thats my point, Renton has an agenda.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Thats my point, Renton has an agenda.


yeh and you of course don't


----------



## tim (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Thats my point, Renton has an agenda.



Unlike you!


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Not defending Nuttall, but Dave Renton is ex long time SWP member, barrister, etc.


I'm sure the story is essentially true, particularly about Nuttall quoting Irving to push buttons and give his anti-Semitism a run out.  Just got the impression Renton was giving an incomplete account.  He's broken the implicit confidentiality of the marking process - something I don't have a problem with in the circumstances (and it is a while ago anyway). But he doesn't quite tell the full story - did he fail him? Was he anti-Semitic in the classroom? What happened next?

edit: anyway, this is a derail on my part. The issue is Nuttall.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 16, 2017)

Nuttall legs it.

Ukip leader Paul Nuttall just failed to turn up at a hustings amid Hillsborough controversy


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Nuttall legs it.
> 
> Ukip leader Paul Nuttall just failed to turn up at a hustings amid Hillsborough controversy


No website, no pressers, no tweeting and no show; fucking lying coward.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 16, 2017)

treelover said:


> Expect them to return it in spades, with Corbyn, McDonnell though.



Ridiculous. Everyone knows the press loves Corbyn and McDonnell.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

brogdale said:


> No website, no pressers, no tweeting and no show; fucking lying coward.



Afterwards, he'll tell people he was there.


----------



## andysays (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Afterwards, he'll tell people he was there.



...and threaten to sue anyone who suggests he wasn't.

(A few posters here might want to edit their comments accordingly  )


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

andysays said:


> ...and threaten to sue anyone who suggests he wasn't.
> 
> (A few posters here might want to edit their comments accordingly  )


i will 

so when he sees my comments, he will sue and i will win and i will countersue and i will take all his money


----------



## gosub (Feb 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> i will
> 
> so when he sees my comments, he will sue and i will win and i will countersue and i will take all his money


I think its wrong to go out of your way to pick a fight with a decorated war hero


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

gosub said:


> I think its wrong to go out of your way to pick a fight with a decorated war hero


it may be wrong but it feels oh so right


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

brogdale said:


>



Actually, if you look hard enough, I'm sure you'll see he's in the picture somewhere. We should make it a game: _Finding Nutto_.


----------



## gosub (Feb 16, 2017)

Is very odd.   Tranmere don't have game til Saturday.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

gosub said:


> Is very odd.   Tranmere don't have game til Saturday.


Dr Nuttall does academic work on Thursdays, he's a visiting gobshite at Trump University. A Man for All Seasons.


----------



## gosub (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Dr Nuttall does academic work on Thursdays, he's a visiting gobshite at Trump University. A Man for All Seasons.



Oi! Thats Professor Nuttall to you


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

gosub said:


> Oi! Thats Professor Nuttall to you


Sorry, yes I forgot! It came through just in time to coincide with his Nobel Prize for Literature. Which was nice.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

Whether the correct address should be _His Excellency Archbishop Professor, Warden of the North, Nuttall_ or _Archbishop, His Excellency, Professor Muad'Dib Nuttall _is a tricky one. I'll leave it to Debretts.


----------



## hot air baboon (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> We should make it a game: _Finding Nutto_.



_*Where's*_ Nutto shurely..?	Finding Nutto will be the Pixar comedy film version of the Stoke by-election at your local multiplex in time for Xmas


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Whether the correct address should be _His Excellency Archbishop Professor, Warden of the North, Nuttall_ or _Archbishop, His Excellency, Professor Muad'Dib Nuttall _is a tricky one. I'll leave it to Debretts.


fortunately his title abbreviate into a handy acronym: WANKER - worshipful archbishop nuttall, king of england and the rest of the world


----------



## gosub (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Whether the correct address should be _His Excellency Archbishop Professor, Warden of the North, Nuttall_ or _Archbishop, His Excellency, Professor Muad'Dib Nuttall _is a tricky one. I'll leave it to Debretts.



commander of the Armies of the North, General of the Felix Legions, loyal servant to the true emperor, Nigelus Faragus. Father to a murdered son, husband to a murdered wife.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> fortunately his title abbreviate into a handy acronym: WANKER - worshipful archbishop nuttall, king of england and the rest of the world


----------



## brogdale (Feb 16, 2017)




----------



## tim (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm sure the story is essentially true, particularly about Nuttall quoting Irving to push buttons and give his anti-Semitism a run out.  Just got the impression Renton was giving an incomplete account.  He's broken the implicit confidentiality of the marking process - something I don't have a problem with in the circumstances (and it is a while ago anyway). But he doesn't quite tell the full story - did he fail him? Was he anti-Semitic in the classroom? What happened next?
> 
> edit: anyway, this is a derail on my part. The issue is Nuttall.



Sadly, I doubt that, be it positive or negative manner, I ever made such an impression on anyone who tutored me at university. 

So that must make me "worse than Nutall".


----------



## Wilf (Feb 16, 2017)

tim said:


> Sadly, I doubt that, be it positive or negative manner, I ever made such an impression on anyone who tutored me at university.
> 
> So that must make me "worse than Nutall".


Must admit I wondered about that bit myself.  You might well remember the fact of someone quoting David Irving, but the idea of having such clear memories from 18 years ago was a bit


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 16, 2017)

Depends what impact they made at the time, surely? I remember incidents, people, events, happenstance occurrences, from jobs I had 18 years ago.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 16, 2017)

Apparently 2,500 new people have registered to vote in the constituency, and it seems most are students.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Must admit I wondered about that bit myself.  You might well remember the fact of someone quoting David Irving, but the idea of having such clear memories from 18 years ago was a bit


Yeh? I can remember things from yesteryear like they were yesterday. I don't find it incredible at all.


----------



## Dom Traynor (Feb 16, 2017)

I think Renton is fairly plausible unlike Nuttall - I don't think Renton would make something like this up and I suspect only people like us will ever see this story.


----------



## tim (Feb 16, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Apparently 2,500 new people have registered to vote in the constituency, and it seems most are students.



That is where your Liberal Democrat surge is going to come from.


----------



## WellRounded (Feb 16, 2017)

Surely if Brexit voters = Trump voters, Nuttall should doubled down on his Hillsborough lie. Perhaps lie 3 or 4 more times. A day. 

If its good enough to win the presidency, surely its good enough to win Stoke? 

Joking aside, I'm not sure if Leavers give a f**k if Nuttall was a Hillsborough or not


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 16, 2017)

WellRounded said:


> Surely if Brexit voters = Trump voters, Nuttall should doubled down on his Hillsborough lie. Perhaps lie 3 or 4 more times. A day.
> 
> If its good enough to win the presidency, surely its good enough to win Stoke?
> 
> Joking aside, I'm not sure if Leavers give a f**k if Nuttall was a Hillsborough or not


Grand. Let us know when you've made up your mind on the question.


----------



## WellRounded (Feb 16, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Grand. Let us know when you've made up your mind on the question.



There is not enough evidence to make up my mind, but thanks for the interest


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 16, 2017)

It's UKIP's spring conference this weekend. Spectacularly timed, so as to assure everyone of note in the party and all their activists will be busy elsewhere during the last, and undoubtedly busiest, campaigning weekend of the by-election.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 16, 2017)

Well...



Indeed, they both voted to trigger A50. That's some brazen fucking lying right from the very top.


----------



## Supine (Feb 16, 2017)

Nittall is probably too busy inventing the next Drum & Bass to be there.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2017)

Stoke byelection candidate arrested over anti-immigrant comments

Unfortunately not Nuttall.

Jesus, what a spread of candidates.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 17, 2017)

yup, its like an embarrassment of riches, but... err, _different._


----------



## tim (Feb 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Stoke byelection candidate arrested over anti-immigrant comments
> 
> Unfortunately not Nuttall.
> 
> Jesus, what a spread of candidates.




None of this Namby-pamby Eurobollocks for this lady She's campaining for the repeal of Magna Carta and the return of the workhouse.

Meanwhile the Liberals are accusing Labour of exerting undue spiritual influence on the electorate.

Stoke byelection: Lib Dems alert police over text urging Muslims to vote Labour https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/feb/16/stoke-byelection-lib-dems-alert-police-over-text-urging-muslims-to-vote-labour?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2017)

What an utter cluster-fuck of a by.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Stoke byelection candidate arrested over anti-immigrant comments
> 
> Unfortunately not Nuttall.
> 
> Jesus, what a spread of candidates.


I wonder if she'll be charged or if it'll dropped later. Either way I'm not sure that this doesn't help UKIP


----------



## tim (Feb 17, 2017)

The fact that Nutalk may be forced to repay vast amounts to the European Parliament for expenses to which he is not entitled could I suppose leave him financially as well as morally bankrupt.

He might then be sent of to one of these new workhouses to pick oakum


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Stoke byelection candidate arrested over anti-immigrant comments
> 
> Unfortunately not Nuttall.
> 
> Jesus, what a spread of candidates.



Yes, I heard about this a few days ago. And yet, I just got a leaflet from her today 

In other news, Gareth has secured a ringing endorsement from no other than the good man Nello  Being that Gareth was well known when he was a student at Keele, of course he knew Nello well while he was there. It would had been better had the quote and picture not been hidden away in a small corner of the pamphlet but there you go. Neil is a proper Labour supporter, it's not just a stunt by Gareth. He was there when Corbyn came last year, front and centre listening to him speak and meeting him after.

In fact, I got a glut of leaflets all in one go today. The BNP leaflet goes after UKIP, which is hilarious. Saying don't be fooled by them, and situates them squarely alongside Labour and the Tories. I can but hope it has the effect of drawing a bit of their support away.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yes, I heard about this a few days ago. And yet, I just got a leaflet from her today
> 
> In other news, Gareth has secured a ringing endorsement from no other than the good man Nello  Being that Gareth was well known when he was a student at Keele, of course he knew Nello well while he was there. It would had been better had the quote and picture not been hidden away in a small corner of the pamphlet but there you go.
> 
> In fact, I got a glut of leaflets all in one go today. The BNP leaflet goes after UKIP, which is hilarious. Saying don't be fooled by them, and situates them squarely alongside Labour and the Tories. I can but hope it has the effect of drawing a bit of their support away.


Clowns...pretty much sums it up.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

You'd best not be slagging off Nello.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> You'd best not be slagging off Nello.


But he's openly clown, no?


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yes, I heard about this a few days ago. And yet, I just got a leaflet from her today


Does it say have more than 





> calls for all immigrants to be repatriated and warns of a “seeping tide of Islamic warriors”.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

brogdale said:


> But he's openly clown, no?



Yes. And a wonderful man.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Does it say have more than



It doesn't say much, other than the queen should be the head of the government, there should be no car tax, and police and prison officers should be 'elevated' whatever that means. She's not a well woman, is my understanding.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> She's not a well woman, is my understanding.


Really, makes the arrest sound even stupider then. 

Not that the reported stuff isn't racist bilge, just that if that's it then I don't see much chance of a conviction (even of that was desirable).


----------



## Wilf (Feb 17, 2017)

Don't worry, Nuttall's Hillsborough attendance has been backed up by Farage! Says he told him about it when Nuttall was 26...
Paul Nuttall tells Ukip Hillsborough claims are 'cruel smear campaign'
... then of course has to admit that Nuttall wasn't even in the party when he was 26.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

Nuttall's further in the shit over the address stuff, having, it seems, put himself down on the electoral register for that address before he moved in. Which is an offence.


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Yes, I heard about this a few days ago. And yet, I just got a leaflet from her today
> 
> In other news, Gareth has secured a ringing endorsement from no other than the good man Nello  Being that Gareth was well known when he was a student at Keele, of course he knew Nello well while he was there. It would had been better had the quote and picture not been hidden away in a small corner of the pamphlet but there you go. Neil is a proper Labour supporter, it's not just a stunt by Gareth. He was there when Corbyn came last year, front and centre listening to him speak and meeting him after.
> 
> In fact, I got a glut of leaflets all in one go today. The BNP leaflet goes after UKIP, which is hilarious. Saying don't be fooled by them, and situates them squarely alongside Labour and the Tories. I can but hope it has the effect of drawing a bit of their support away.



I thought you meant Dave Nellist, that would have been strange


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

Both legends in their own right


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Nuttall's further in the shit over the address stuff, having, it seems, put himself down on the electoral register for that address before he moved in. Which is an offence.


Sorry, are you saying something new has arisen on this or is it still just being investigated?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 17, 2017)

I was speaking today with someone who lives in Stoke, usually a Labour voter I think but I didn't ask directly, totally convinced that UKIP will win based on the people he knows who have not voted in the past but who want to vote UKIP now.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Sorry, are you saying something new has arisen on this or is it still just being investigated?



Has someone already mentioned this then? Apols I didn't see it.

There was the initial thing, whereby he put on his nomination form that his home address was this place in Stoke, when in fact it wasn't. That was what all the hoo-ha was about a while back. But yesterday (I think) Crick tweeted about something else - that he'd also registered himself on the electoral roll as being at that address, but that he registered before he'd moved in. So two separate things, both making him a very naughty boy, both potentially offences, both potentially due for a trip to court if it turns out there's enough evidence against him. So, separate offences, both related to him not living at that address when he said he was.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 17, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Has someone already mentioned this then? Apols I didn't see it.
> 
> There was the initial thing, whereby he put on his nomination form that his home address was this place in Stoke, when in fact it wasn't. That was what all the hoo-ha was about a while back. But yesterday (I think) Crick tweeted about something else - that he'd also registered himself on the electoral roll as being at that address, but that he registered before he'd moved in. So two separate things, both making him a very naughty boy, both potentially offences, both potentially due for a trip to court if it turns out there's enough evidence against him. So, separate offences, both related to him not living at that address when he said he was.


Ah, I'd seen the first one but not the second. Ta.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 17, 2017)

J Ed said:


> I was speaking today with someone who lives in Stoke, usually a Labour voter I think but I didn't ask directly, totally convinced that UKIP will win based on the people he knows who have not voted in the past but who want to vote UKIP now.



Waterson from buzzfeed did a piece today. He went to Bentilee (which he called a UKIP heartland, which is somewhat misleading considering its 2 councillors are both Labour and were both elected 2015) and spoke to people there. He spoke to some long-time UKIP supporters who said the Hillsborough stuff had turned them away from Nuttall. 

So the picture's not clear at all. It's a big old mess really.


----------



## treelover (Feb 17, 2017)

> We aim to defeat Ukip’s politics of hate in Stoke with Labour’s politics of hope and community,” Corbyn will say. “Hatred won’t build homes. It won’t create jobs, and it won’t fund health and social care. It won’t bring our people dignity or bring our communities together.”



Corbyn visits this weekend, he is going to say

He may be right, but people who may be thinking of voting for UKIP, probably won't take that message on board, it will just sound like hectoring, a stance which voters across the world are rebelling against.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 18, 2017)

treelover said:


> Corbyn visits this weekend, he is going to say
> 
> He may be right, but people who may be thinking of voting for UKIP, probably won't take that message on board, it will just sound like hectoring, a stance which voters across the world are rebelling against.


No he isn't 

Next


----------



## flustercuck (Feb 18, 2017)

Did you know that, according to wikipedia, he survived the Beckinsale Air disaster of 1993? Neither did I! Wikipedia says "Excluding the four dead villagers, many other bodies were found all over the village. Politician Paul Nuttall survived unscathed, though he lost a "close, personal friend".

Phew, what a close call that was


----------



## Wilf (Feb 18, 2017)

Here's another one:
Ukip leader Paul Nuttall is facing fresh allegations about his honesty
((((Nuttall's press secretary))))


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 18, 2017)

Most of my anger atm is directed towards the LibDems. UKIP gonna UKIP, but the LibDems are pond slime.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 18, 2017)

WATCH: Corbyn: 'The campaign to win by-election is going well'


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 18, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Most of my anger atm is directed towards the LibDems. UKIP gonna UKIP, but the LibDems are pond slime.


twas ever thus.


----------



## agricola (Feb 18, 2017)

The latest (in this Express article, but beware the usual ads):



> When quizzed by the Express.co.uk if he thought Labour were to blame, he said: “Oh yes. For years the Labour party have tried to keep him out of the whole Hillsborough debate purely for party political reasons.
> 
> “*He has tried in the past to join the various groups and he has literally been excluded from them.*
> 
> “I think they picked on an issue with which they thought they could divert him from the by-election and it’s obviously something he feels very passionate about.”



It should perhaps surprise few that "the various groups" dispute this.


----------



## treelover (Feb 18, 2017)

> "The commitment, comradeship and sheer effort was astonishing." - RRKC
> 
> Everyone who supports the Labour party should be both grateful for & proud of this - we should all say "Thank you so much for the effort you are all putting in."
> 
> This is what working together looks like - it looks a damnside more constructive than tearing each other to bits all the time.




Lots of supporters in Stoke, apparently this was at its quietest.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 18, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Most of my anger atm is directed towards the LibDems. UKIP gonna UKIP, but the LibDems are pond slime.



what are the lib dems pretending to be there?  i don't remember there being much of a liberal / SDP / salad (or whatever the heck it was at the time) presence in north staffs in my time there (early 90s)

i can't see their general 'you thick plebs got it wrong on brexit' going down that well...


----------



## Wilf (Feb 19, 2017)

agricola said:


> The latest (in this Express article, but beware the usual ads):
> 
> 
> 
> It should perhaps surprise few that "the various groups" dispute this.


I'm reluctantly reaching the conclusion that these ukip chappies don't, in fact, uphold the highest standards of truth.


----------



## flustercuck (Feb 19, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm reluctantly reaching the conclusion that these ukip chappies don't, in fact, uphold the highest standards of truth.



What? Really? ;-)

I suspect you are right ....


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 19, 2017)

treelover said:


> Lots of supporters in Stoke, apparently this was at its quietest.




It's been incredibly busy, even during the week. Canvassers have been able to return to the same areas multiple times, right across the city, rather than having to pick a few key areas and hope they manage to get to them the once. Lots of people flooding in from outside to help.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 19, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> what are the lib dems pretending to be there?  i don't remember there being much of a liberal / SDP / salad (or whatever the heck it was at the time) presence in north staffs in my time there (early 90s)
> 
> i can't see their general 'you thick plebs got it wrong on brexit' going down that well...



Dr Ali, who tends to stand for them all the time, has been pumping out more leaflets and letters than Labour - at least to my house. They're focusing heavily on the NHS, since he's a doctor, and on Brexit, and they're going heavily after Labour rather than UKIP. 

Like I said, pond slime.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Like I said, pond slime.



that bit goes without saying...


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 19, 2017)

I mean, they've got to know there is no way in hell they'll take every single one of Labour's votes from last time - it's an impossibility. And so, the only thing they can hope to do is draw away enough of Labour's vote that the tories or kippers win instead. That's literally the only possible outcome that could in any way be construed as a 'success' for them.

Lower than scum.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I mean, they've got to know there is no way in hell they'll take every single one of Labour's votes from last time - it's an impossibility. And so, the only thing they can hope to do is draw away enough of Labour's vote that the tories or kippers win instead. That's literally the only possible outcome that could in any way be construed as a 'success' for them.
> 
> Lower than scum.


Sorry but this rubbish. The LibDems are scum yes but they aren't scum because they are campaigning against Labour. 

They oppose the politics of your party, to say that they shouldn't go out and campaign against you is an either utterly one eyed party hackery or a argument for a wet lib-lib alliance. If the LDs shouldn't campaign against you here then you shouldn't have campaigned against them in Richmond, or any other LD-Tory marginal. And what about the Greens, they should just go come everywhere but Brighton? I mean the above leads to this type of crap.

This is exactly the type of blinkered nonsense that is the problem with electoral politics.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 19, 2017)

I'm not getting into this again. It would be fucking awful for the people of Stoke to have Nuttall as their MP. I don't want that to happen. Since the revolution isn't going to happen before Thursday, the most reliable way to ensure he doesn't is that Labour is elected. I don't particularly care whether you think that's bullshit or not, but you don't live here and you aren't faced with that prospect. I refuse to debate that point anymore with you.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2017)

Right so Greens, LibDems, PC, any other parties to the left of Labour should all stand aside and simply let the Labour Party have a free shot. Does this apply in every seat? Only the seats where UKIP have a significant presence? Should the IWCA not have stood against Labour?



Vintage Paw said:


> Since the revolution isn't going to happen before Thursday, the most reliable way to ensure he doesn't is that Labour is elected.


Fine, argue for people to vote for you on that basis then (though I think arguing for a vote Labour to keep UKIP basis is stupid and only going to ensure the support of UKIP grows) but to claim that it's morally illegitimate for other parties to stand against you, sorry but that's just pathetic hackery, the Labour Party doesn't have some divine right to this seat (or any other)

Just viewing from the perspectives of those parties it's utter lunacy to argue that they shouldn't stand against the Labour Party, how else are they going to any progress. It's clearly to the LibDems (and Greens) benefit to stand, and indeed to campaign, against Labour. To argue that they are wrong to do so that they should simply roll over everytime the Labour Party tells them to is mad. They exist to build their party the best way to do that is to go out and campaign.

EDIT: And how far does this extend? Are you going to argue against Labour standing in South Thanet and Clacton? They're letting the UKIP vote in. You've ensured that the people of Clacton have to suffer Carswell. Should Méléchon stand down for Hamon? Should the Australian Greens stand aside for the ALP (an argument the ALP constantly makes). Fuck that.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2017)

Also if you think arguing that other parties shouldn't stand against you is going to win over voters I'd talk to Scottish voters, it doesn't seem to have worked very well there.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2017)

yes, but weren't the lib dems criticising labour for not standing aside at the richmond by-election a few months back, and talking about a 'progressive alliance'?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 19, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> yes, but weren't the lib dems criticising labour for not standing aside at the richmond by-election a few months back, and talking about a 'progressive alliance'?



yes


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2017)

to clarify - I'm far from convinced that parties stepping aside to allow others a clear run is a good idea.  If voters want to vote tactically, that should be up to them not something stitched up between the party machines.

The point here is the (usual) variable messages from the lib dems - pretending to be 'progressive' one week, then campaigning in a way that's most likely to benefit the UKIP vote the next.

Absolutely nothing new from the lib-dems and SLD / SDP and so on...


----------



## tim (Feb 19, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> yes, but weren't the lib dems criticising labour for not standing aside at the richmond by-election a few months back, and talking about a 'progressive alliance'?



Yes, well these are the progressive Liberals that went into coalition with the Tories six years ago. Surely, you should have realised by now that consistency is not one of their strengths. 

Their objective in Stoke is to get enough votes, to show that they're still a national party. They'll use their old tactics of having a Ffocus on pertinent local issues and finding a national issue they can make their own. Europe is that issue, even in "Brexit" areas there are probably enough alienated remainers to give them a boost.  Vintage Paw mentioned that there has been a substantial increase in young voters registering. I suppose the Liberal hope is that many of the new cohort of students will be too young to remember the promises six years ago about tuition fees, and fired up enough about Europe to trust them with their votes.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 19, 2017)

tim said:


> Surely, you should have realised by now that consistency is not one of their strengths.



I realise that absolutely (see post 582) - I currently live in a fairly safe tory seat where the LD's come second, mum-tat lives in a fairly safe labour seat where the LD's come second.  The similarity in the LD's "it's a two horse race - [party] can't win here" bumf we get, with the only difference being that they are pointing in opposite political directions, is striking...


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 19, 2017)

Puddy_Tat said:


> yes, but weren't the lib dems criticising labour for not standing aside at the richmond by-election a few months back, and talking about a 'progressive alliance'?


Oh, don't get me wrong, the LDs are cynical hypocritical opportunistic fucks and VP is completely right that they are slime. I just think I arguing that parties are slime because they are standing against Labour in Stoke and might cost them the seat leads to some very crap conclusions.

EDIT: I mean does the same argument not apply to the Greens?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2017)

Ukip bod pisses on fence of the woman he'd just leafleted, then tries to push his way into her house to use the toilet:
UKIP canvasser is caught on CCTV URINATING on pensioner's fence while campaigning for Paul Nuttall
They are forced to apologise, but only after suggesting online that it was a Labour Party member out to discredit them. Wow!


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2017)

2 Merseyside ukip chairs quit over Nuttall (and Banks):
Two Ukip chairmen quit in protest over Paul Nuttall's Hillsborough falsehood - Politics live


----------



## ska invita (Feb 20, 2017)

From facebook:

So I went canvassing for Labour in Stoke yesterday with Hackney Momentum ppl and others. 
1) cos i'd never been to Stoke 
2) to stop that fucking eejit Nuttalls from getting elected and 
3) to speak to UKIP supporters to try to get an idea what they're thinking. 
So! Did several hours / two rounds in working class/lower middle class areas
- spoke to a dozen or so people [most ppl out/didn't open door/voter fatigue etc] 
- i got a majority UKIP [ though split evenly between all of us] 
- the kippers seemed to be mainly ex Tory Thatcherite types
- Brexit came up a couple of times, immigration once 
- two first time kippers refused to say why they were going to vote UKIP and I sensed racism but maybe just they're just donuts
- lots of hatred, but unclear/unspecific, for Labour, and not apparently from the Left, just kinda anger. 
- some feeling that even though people might vote UKIP Nuttall not a good candidate
- little strong feeling for Snell [ Labour candidate] nor that he was local 
- strong sense all around of abandonment 
- some bizarre exchanges - one woman blamed factpry closures in Stoke in the 1980s on the then Labour govt and wasn't interested when I said it was a Tory govt then. 
- Labour got the blame for everything wrong that has happened
- one Labour said how damaging Tristram Hunt had been
- No one was a fan of Corbyn. Labour voters felt he is weak


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2017)

ska invita said:


> From facebook:
> 
> So I went canvassing for Labour in Stoke yesterday with Hackney Momentum ppl and others.
> 1) cos i'd never been to Stoke
> ...


That sounds about right, in the sense of how a lot of long term stuff is ultimately playing out as a decision to vote one way or the other (or not at all).


----------



## brogdale (Feb 20, 2017)

Wilf said:


> Ukip bod pisses on fence of the woman he'd just leafleted, then tries to push his way into her house to use the toilet:
> UKIP canvasser is caught on CCTV URINATING on pensioner's fence while campaigning for Paul Nuttall
> They are forced to apologise, but only after suggesting online that it was a Labour Party member out to discredit them. Wow!



Skwarkbox has this as a former BNP activist; no wonder UKIP won't name the offender.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 20, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Skwarkbox has this as a former BNP activist; no wonder UKIP won't name the offender.


(((Ukip's ground game))))


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2017)

Nuttall claims he spent 3 hours giving 'witness statement' to Operation resolve....yesterday.


----------



## redsquirrel (Feb 21, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Nuttall claims he spent 3 hours giving 'witness statement' to Operation resolve....yesterday.


Well surely that one has to be true (at least on some level), it'll just be too easy for journalists to check, and after the last week they're going to be all over it like a rash. If he's bullshitted there he's an total and utter moron.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2017)

redsquirrel said:


> Well surely that one has to be true (at least on some level), it'll just be too easy for journalists to check, and after the last week they're going to be all over it like a rash. If he's bullshitted there he's an total and utter moron.


Surely even Nuttall wouldn't be dumb enough to fabricate such an easily verifiable fact? Which leaves the other prospect (if he never was there?) that he fabricated the 'evidence' given to resolve? 
Whole move shows quite how rattled the fucker is.


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2017)

ska invita said:


> From facebook:
> 
> So I went canvassing for Labour in Stoke yesterday with Hackney Momentum ppl and others.
> 1) cos i'd never been to Stoke
> ...


"Sense racism" even though they didn't say anything lol


----------



## The39thStep (Feb 21, 2017)

Stokes going to be close . both UKIP and Labour are damaged goods .


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> Stokes going to be close . both UKIP and Labour are damaged goods .


Yeh but labour's been damaged goods for longer than ukip have


----------



## DotCommunist (Feb 21, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> "Sense racism" even though they didn't say anything lol


that did leap out. Is it some special antenna do you think, something like The Force


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2017)

DotCommunist said:


> that did leap out. Is it some special antenna do you think, something like The Force


It's when you see racism in their aura


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2017)

The39thStep said:


> "Sense racism" even though they didn't say anything lol




The new modern left, well liberal left, has lost the plot, the identity based politics which many have them have wanted for decades is now here, with class and economics based ones now seen as dinosaurs, pale, male, stale, lets see how it develops when the next crash comes, etc.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Nuttall claims he spent 3 hours giving 'witness statement' to Operation resolve....yesterday.


Well, that ups the anti. Given that operation resolve is a criminal investigation he could presumably be charged with wasting police time if it turns out he wasn't there.  Phil Scraton is clearly unconvinced (from Guardian also).  Must admit, I genuinely don't know whether to believe him or not.  At one level he's if not quite an absolute fantasist, prone to exaggerating things that have a core of truth - started a PhD = has a PhD; visited a charity several times = on the board; football trainee = played for Tranmere.  It's possible to see somebody who went to matches regularly morphing into/presenting himself as an actual attendee at Hillsborough.  But it's an astoundingly risky thing to do and if it was proved he didn't attend that's him finished - right through to the potential charges that would follow from going to the police yesterday.  People have claimed they were holocaust survivors, so it's not unheard of to take that risk, but in a relatively small city the chances of being exposed were always high.  It would be such a crazy thing to claim, I _almost_ believe him.



> In the light of Paul Nuttall’s revelation that he gave a witness statement to the police about Hillsborough yesterday, this is worth a read. It’s an article in the Liverpool Echo yesterday by *Prof* *Phil Scraton*, the lead researcher and main author of the Hillsborough Independent Panel’s report, about what Nuttall should give a statement about Hillsborough.
> 
> Here is an excerpt.
> 
> ...


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

... the other thing is, operation resolve should have said 'fuck off and come back after the election. We're not taking part in your grubby little political game'.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

... further random thought: having made a statement to a criminal investigation, does that allow him to deflect, 'make no further comment' till after Thursday?


----------



## brogdale (Feb 21, 2017)

Wilf said:


> ... further random thought: having made a statement to a criminal investigation, does that allow him to deflect, 'make no further comment' till after Thursday?


_*If *_he's telling the truth about the 3 hours of evidence, it sounds like he's also bound in his family member witnesses as well....just in case they felt like wobbling and not backing his claim?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

brogdale said:


> _*If *_he's telling the truth about the 3 hours of evidence, it sounds like he's also bound in his family member witnesses as well....just in case they felt like wobbling and not backing his claim?


On the face of it he's 'given a statement' - '3 hours'. Is that plausible?  No idea how operation resolve works, but this must have been arranged in the last few days as the heat on him increased.  Would his solicitor have been able to make a call and get him in there straight away?  I'm sure he was _in the building_ yesterday - even he couldn't make _that_ up -  but as with so much about Nuttall... who knows? Maybe an initial appointment, not 3 hours of forensic detail?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

Anyway, all this 'statementing' leaves him no time to sort his website:


> Site is offline for maintenance


----------



## treelover (Feb 21, 2017)

It really is going to the wire in Stoke.


----------



## rutabowa (Feb 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> It really is going to the wire in Stoke.


Most elections do really, in that no one knows the result until they have actually happened. Otherwise there would be no point in elections.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 21, 2017)

treelover said:


> It really is going to the wire in Stoke.


I see it's stating the bleeding obvious day today.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 21, 2017)

Anyone have a grasp of postal voting in Stoke?

Is there any data on what proportion of votes is postal, whether it's any particular demographic, political persausion, or whether it's swing voters or 'solids', or even when people vote postally - do they vote on the first day they can or in the last week..?

I'm wondering if UKIP postal voters have voted before the UKIP train started to come off the tracks..?


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 21, 2017)

Conservative home thinks its volatile.

http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/02/can-the-conservatives-win-in-stoke.html


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 21, 2017)

Old Spark said:


> Conservative home thinks its volatile.
> 
> http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/02/can-the-conservatives-win-in-stoke.html



That's actually an interesting piece, regardless of the source.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Feb 21, 2017)

So hard to call. Nuttall is a lying freak, but Snell is a charisma black hole and looks like a paedo. Could the Tories win this?


----------



## killer b (Feb 21, 2017)

no.


----------



## agricola (Feb 21, 2017)

Wilf said:


> On the face of it he's 'given a statement' - '3 hours'. Is that plausible?  No idea how operation resolve works, but this must have been arranged in the last few days as the heat on him increased.  Would his solicitor have been able to make a call and get him in there straight away?  I'm sure he was _in the building_ yesterday - even he couldn't make _that_ up -  but as with so much about Nuttall... who knows? Maybe an initial appointment, not 3 hours of forensic detail?



Interestingly, the Operation Resolve website lists its "witness appeal" section as closed and had reported that they had passed their evidence to the CPS for review and charging decision on the 12th of January.  They held at least eight separate media and witness appeals for information - some admittedly for specific bits of the ground - without Nuttall ever making a statement before this morning.


----------



## gosub (Feb 21, 2017)

agricola said:


> Interestingly, the Operation Resolve website lists its "witness appeal" section as closed and had reported that they had passed their evidence to the CPS for review and charging decision on the 12th of January.  They held at least eight separate media and witness appeals for information - some admittedly for specific bits of the ground - without Nuttall ever making a statement before this morning.


Healey's Law of holes applies... Appalled


----------



## teqniq (Feb 21, 2017)

Anyone who votes for Nuttall either has rose-tinted glasses or blinkers or lastly and sadly is a bigot.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 21, 2017)

Wolveryeti said:


> So hard to call. Nuttall is a lying freak, but Snell is a charisma black hole and looks like a paedo. Could the Tories win this?



Goodness. Well, I think he looks more like a geography teacher (he even has jackets with the elbow patches), but as for the charisma thing it's precisely his ability to speak eloquently and be witty that got everyone behind him in the selection meeting. He's come across not at all like he is usually in the press I've seen him do, most likely because a) he's not done this before, and b) he's being 'managed' to hell and back.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

agricola said:


> Interestingly, the Operation Resolve website lists its "witness appeal" section as closed and had reported that they had passed their evidence to the CPS for review and charging decision on the 12th of January.  They held at least eight separate media and witness appeals for information - some admittedly for specific bits of the ground - without Nuttall ever making a statement before this morning.


I saw something similar earlier today about it being closed, which gives you a sense of how pissed off the Operation Resolve officers must have been to go through the charade of taking his statement.  They must also have been pissed off as to him not coming forward before, that is, if they believed him at all. The wording of their confirmation that they had interviewed him was 'terse' to say the least: 





> An Operation Resolve spokesman said: "Our role is to investigate the causes of the Hillsborough disaster and to establish whether any individual or organisation is criminally culpable and, in that context, *Mr Nuttall met criteria for taking a statement*."


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 21, 2017)

I have no idea if this is true or not.



Their van was, however, apparently parked right outside their office in Hanley (the city centre) earlier today, which is a no parking or loading area. The weight of evidence against them and their diabolical nature increases.


----------



## Wilf (Feb 21, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I have no idea if this is true or not.
> 
> 
> 
> .



True, how could it not be true? Didn't Paul Nuttall write the song during one of his residencies at The Cavern?


----------



## ska invita (Feb 22, 2017)

Storm Doris hits on Thursday, Labour theorising their half -arsed voters least likely to come out in a gale, and potentially will hand it to the Tories


could be damage limitation talk


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 22, 2017)

There's no denying weather has an effect on election turnout. Whether it is more likely to affect one group of voters or another though? 

I wonder if there have been studies?


----------



## killer b (Feb 22, 2017)

It affects labour voters the most.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 22, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> There's no denying weather has an effect on election turnout. Whether it is more likely to affect one group of voters or another though?
> 
> I wonder if there have been studies?


Yes


----------



## bluescreen (Feb 22, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> There's no denying weather has an effect on election turnout. Whether it is more likely to affect one group of voters or another though?
> 
> I wonder if there have been studies?


Does the weather affect voter turnout?

tldr John Curtice says No. 





> I asked him whether turnout was more about poverty and geography rather than politics and he said "yes".


----------



## hash tag (Feb 22, 2017)

I think it was Harold Wilson who said he was worried that Steptoe and Son would affect the turnout. Steptoe and Son!!!
On Thursday I see there is The Great Porrtey Throw Down


----------



## kebabking (Feb 22, 2017)

I suppose it's too much to hope for that an arrest for making a false statement, wasting Police time and attempting to pervert the course of justice might shoot the UKIP fox...

Do we have a book running on the return of the Falange by Easter?


----------



## Wilf (Feb 22, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I suppose it's too much to hope for that an arrest for making a false statement, wasting Police time and attempting to pervert the course of justice might shoot the UKIP fox...


I'm sure those issues were swirling around in the minds of the coppers who interviewed him. Also, the whole thing must have been done through gritted teeth given that they knew they were being played in a crude and obvious political game. I like to think the 3 hours was a 5 minute interview and Nuttall being kept waiting for 2:55.  What a cunt, he either had worthwhile evidence which he has withheld or he's got nothing at all and he's, literally, wasting their time to manage a bad news story. I honestly think this stunt with the police is every bit as bad as the 'close friends' claim on his website.


----------



## kebabking (Feb 22, 2017)

If he does manage to win tomorrow, it will be interesting to see if that ends up having a negative effect on UKIP  - unlike Carswell he'll be universally loathed within parliament, and unlike Carswell, it seems pretty obvious that there'll be 649 MP's trying hard to make him look like an utter cunt and a completely out of his depth - I'm wondering if the combination of their leader being made to look bad every time they see him on TV, and Theresa May ticking most of the UKIP boxes, that it's electoral and indeed membership support might take a bit of a hammering...?

It's obvious that Nutter is well out of his depth, that he's no Falange, and that worst of all he's been caught - is 'wanting to spend more time with his family/PhD/Tranmere Rovers/dead friends' on the horizon?


----------



## agricola (Feb 22, 2017)

Wilf said:


> I'm sure those issues were swirling around in the minds of the coppers who interviewed him. Also, the whole thing must have been done through gritted teeth given that they knew they were being played in a crude and obvious political game. I like to think the 3 hours was a 5 minute interview and Nuttall being kept waiting for 2:55.  What a cunt, he either had worthwhile evidence which he has withheld or he's got nothing at all and he's, literally, wasting their time to manage a bad news story. *I honestly think this stunt with the police is every bit as bad as the 'close friends' claim on his website.*



If anything its probably even worse - this statement is going to come out, and its going to come out with hundreds of other statements, video footage and other evidence that will demonstrate how true it is.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Feb 22, 2017)

kebabking said:


> it seems pretty obvious that there'll be 649 MP's trying hard to make him look like an utter cunt and a completely out of his depth



not sure they will need to try very hard...


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 22, 2017)

This is well worth a watch for two reaosns:

1. It perfectly demonstrates the predictable results of sending middle class students into working class communities. 
2. It provides a glimpse of the massive gulf between political parties and ordinary people - including UKIP.  As one of the residents interviewed says 'they aren't anything to do with us'. He's right. 

'They don't care about us': the anger and apathy behind the Stoke byelection – video


----------



## FabricLiveBaby! (Feb 22, 2017)

Smokeandsteam said:


> This is well worth a watch for two reaosns:
> 
> 1. It perfectly demonstrates the predictable results of sending middle class students into working class communities.
> 2. It provides a glimpse of the massive gulf between political parties and ordinary people - including UKIP.  As one of the residents interviewed says 'they aren't anything to do with us'. He's right.
> ...



Liked for the vid. It is a good one.


----------



## treelover (Feb 22, 2017)

Snell doesn't seem very endearing.


----------



## Old Spark (Feb 22, 2017)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Liked for the vid. It is a good one.
> 
> It is.Well for the lad who said -they dont care -keeping him out if prison would be the first priority or if that proved impossible making his next time in prison more about rehabilitation.Restorative justice maybe.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 22, 2017)

treelover said:


> Snell doesn't seem very endearing.



In person he's chalk and cheese. Affable, amusing, very dry, with the ability to rub some people entirely up the wrong way.

Of every bit of video I've seen of him during the campaign, I haven't yet seen Gareth. 

Someone asked about postal votes earlier: 6000, and historically postal votes have favoured Labour here. Who knows if this remains the case?

Doris has arrived. It's been raining for a couple of hours now. Meant to be very strong gale-ish winds tomorrow, but with breaks in the rain.

The last time the weather was an issue around here was in 2011 during full council elections. In the end, the BNP vote was down considerably, but nothing else notable. Whether that had anything to do with the weather or whether it was because there had been a concerted effort to drive them back I don't know, but we had 9 BNP councillors in 2009 and they lost 4 in 2010, and in 2011 they lost the final 5, so I doubt it was entirely because of good old mother nature.


----------



## belboid (Feb 22, 2017)

killer b said:


> It affects labour voters the most.


Kipper voters were barely included when they did those surveys tho. It will surely affect there former labour voters as much as current labour voters


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2017)

treelover said:


> Snell doesn't seem very endearing.


Yeh but you don't, I believe, live in Stoke so snell does not need to endear himself to you.


----------



## Smokeandsteam (Feb 23, 2017)

treelover said:


> Snell doesn't seem very endearing.



His face constantly looks like he's stepped in something. The people of Stoke deserve much much better than a snivelling litle careerist like Snell.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 23, 2017)

He's not a careerist. 

Anyway, the weather is absolutely fucking abysmal. It's definitely going to have an effect.


----------



## Pickman's model (Feb 23, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> He's not a careerist.
> 
> Anyway, the weather is absolutely fucking abysmal. It's definitely going to have an effect.


yeh labour will be blown away


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2017)

Nuttall parks company car outside his Potteries pied-à-terre.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2017)

Is that a Renault?


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 23, 2017)

Just got back from my local polling station.

They said it it picked up a lot more this afternoon and they didn't think it'd been too bad at all (it's a pretty small ward anyway). I mean, that's relatively speaking.

Labour, LibDem and UKIP tellers outside. According to Labour people who've been campaigning all day, that's the only LibDem anyone's seen, and the Tories have been entirely absent. UKIP have been doorknocking a little bit, but seem to have focused most of their energy and resources on tellers at every polling station. Labour have been campaigning lots to get out the vote. Even this morning when the weather was at its worst (and it has been shocking - roads closed because of collapsed roofs and trees down and stuff) there were people who'd said they'd already been out and voted.

Results expected around 4am they say. It'll be live on BBC Two. Feel a bit sick.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Just got back from my local polling station.
> 
> They said it it picked up a lot more this afternoon and they didn't think it'd been too bad at all (it's a pretty small ward anyway). I mean, that's relatively speaking.
> 
> ...



The regressive alliance alive & well, eh?


----------



## J Ed (Feb 23, 2017)

No exit polling for either Stoke or Copeland, is there?


----------



## killer b (Feb 23, 2017)

no, they only do them for generals


----------



## tim (Feb 23, 2017)

killer b said:


> no, they only do them for generals



So they've got time to get the coup underway if the wrong side has won.


----------



## brogdale (Feb 23, 2017)

Don't know what this is based upon, but a pretty credible source....


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 23, 2017)

I've seen reports all over the place, but by-election turnout is usually 15-20 points lower than a GE, and to add to it there are trees lying uprooted in roads... it's been a touch windy today.

That's not at all to discount the lack of engagement. But I don't think anyone should have expected a much higher turnout than that.


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Turnout 38%


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> I've seen reports all over the place, but by-election turnout is usually 15-20 points lower than a GE, and to add to it there are trees lying uprooted in roads... it's been a touch windy today.
> 
> That's not at all to discount the lack of engagement. But I don't think anyone should have expected a much higher turnout than that.


Official: it's 38%


----------



## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Turnout 38%


Snap!


----------



## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Postal votes were 4,300 some, not the 6000 I'd heard previously.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Anyway, that's about 12 points below the GE, which looks like is the same for Copeland as well. Perfectly in keeping with a by-election. I did expect it to be lower here, especially because of Doris. God only knows who was motivated enough to come out. 

All the papers are saying senior people from this and that party (but not Labour) are saying Labour hold, and more comfortably than expected, but Labour aren't buying into it - not that they would even if they believed it. I did see in a rando tweet that UKIP's betting odds suddenly got better though, so who knows? My gut says the tories pose more of the threat, but these are really strange times.

Bit sick of people refusing a nuanced analysis by blindly saying "an opposition party at this stage of a government shouldn't have a problem holding a seat" without any kind of discussion about the huge changes in politics in recent years. I mean, yeah, that's what you'd have expected in times gone by, but everything's a massive pile of balls atm and nothing is 'normal'.


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## Sue (Feb 24, 2017)

So if Labour hold the seat, what then?


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

I'd like to think this whole process will have opened some eyes. Not necessarily just locally, but in the national party as well. 

Nationally, I expect a fresh assault on the leadership will make any chance of learning lessons entirely useless.

Locally, I don't know. Firstly it depends if any of those new members who got involved during this campaign stay involved and help reinvigorate local engagement. The local party is reasonably Corbyn-supportive. It can't be understated though how much people are ground down. And what happens at the national level affects that too. I'd hope there would be a realisation that there has to be a lot more going into communities, being visible, giving platforms and opportunities for people here to be heard. 

Something has to drastically change. But of course, there's still a Tory-UKIP-Indy council, so everyday services and that are out of Labour's hands right now, and previous Labour councils have got a lot to answer for.

Everything's a massive clusterfuck and it's not going to be as easy as "and here's how it gets fixed."


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## lefteri (Feb 24, 2017)

tim said:


> So they've got time to get the coup underway if the wrong side has won.



Surely the whole point of British democracy is that there is no wrong side?


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

From Faisal Islam


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

They're predicting the Tories take Copeland with a margin of 1,000.


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## belboid (Feb 24, 2017)

Sue said:


> So if Labour hold the seat, what then?


Forward to socialism!


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)




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## William of Walworth (Feb 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> They're predicting the Tories take Copeland with a margin of 1,000.




Who -- Channel 4 or BBC?


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## William of Walworth (Feb 24, 2017)

Massively higher GE turnout in Copeland than in Stoke!


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Who -- Channel 4 or BBC?



Tories, according to Sky. Obviously all these things are pinch-of-salt, but it's interesting seeing them all predicting.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> Massively higher GE turnout in Copeland than in Stoke!



Yeah, we were the lowest in the country.


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## William of Walworth (Feb 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> Tories, according to Sky.



The Tories would have to be quite confident to suggest a Copeland margin of as much as 1,000


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

I've got Sky, Guardian and Mirror open. Resisting watching Andrew Neil. Will turn it on when they're close to an announcement. Heard Widdecombe was on earlier. Dodged a bullet there.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

William of Walworth said:


> The Tories would have to be quite confident to suggest a Copeland margin of as much as 1,000



It's the rural areas that have done it, it seems.

2015:







There were cautious suggestions it could be Labour until the rural boxes started coming in.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)




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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

The Tory on This Week just failed to name the Tory candidate here 

To be fair, he is utterly forgettable.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Shit, there might be a result soon. Candidates have been summoned over to the doubtful pile.


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## free spirit (Feb 24, 2017)

It looks like Ukip have been caught breaking election law in Stoke with a rosetted teller caught on camera sat inside the polling station.














source

Probably just incompetence / inexperience but still I hope they get their wrist slapped. It's a bit odd that they didn't get kicked out by those running the polling station.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Ruth Smeeth and Jack Dromey apparently 'high-fived' as her and Gareth arrived. Glad I didn't witness that.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

free spirit said:


> It looks like Ukip have been caught breaking election law in Stoke with a rosetted teller caught on camera sat inside the polling station.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They were inside mine too, and inside others campaigners were walking past earlier. The people who need to be informed have been informed. And about all the other potential election expense issues that they've been engaging in too. There's a bit of a dossier.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

They're going to announce any minute I think.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Exclusive: I don't think things are looking good for the Monster Raving Loony Party's The Amazing Flying Brick.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)




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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

Had the misfortune to catch Widdecombe earlier, full on swivel eyed call for"bold thinking on the NHS" - gut it and mentioning benefit scroungers etc. Just turned back on to catch whoever this Labour bloke is with the terrible tie.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

That is a bad tie.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Sounds like it's still on a knife's edge in Copeland. Different issues at play here and there. Very local issues re the NHS and nuclear up there, whereas more general malaise and national brexit stuff here, even though our hospital is in really dire condition.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Results coming it seems. They're meeting the returning officer.


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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

Vaguely amusing UKIP joke shocker!


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

I lol'd.


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## belboid (Feb 24, 2017)

Sky declaring labour have won stoke


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

I'm hearing Labour increased their majority. Goodness.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Yes. Wow.


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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

Majority close on two thousand by sounds of it.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Only 2000 some in it. I thought the Tories might creep ahead of UKIP.


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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

Over two and a half thousand looking at the numbers.


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## belboid (Feb 24, 2017)

Looks like pretty much exactly the same percentages as at the GE, libscum gaining a few from the greens


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Reduced share, but not by a huge amount. Tories neck and neck with UKIP.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Bonkers night.


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## ska invita (Feb 24, 2017)

My impression is Snell is a shit candidate....should be factored in a bit


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Tories have taken Copeland


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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

And by a fair margin.


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## JimW (Feb 24, 2017)

And she's straight into Corbyn.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

Naturally.


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## Vintage Paw (Feb 24, 2017)

It can't be confirmed, but it certainly looks like the UKIP vote went to the Tories, and a smaller portion of Labour vote went to the LibDems.

I expect this will be happening a lot more frequently, and May will be triangulating to win as much of the crumbling UKIP vote as possible.


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## ferrelhadley (Feb 24, 2017)

Let the excuses begin.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

Treelover will be rubbing his hands with glee at the copeland result


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## Louis MacNeice (Feb 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Treelover will be rubbing his hands with glee at the copeland result



Not as much as Progress supporting ex-Labour MP Jamie Reid will be as he makes his way to work as head of development and community relations at Sellafield this morning.

Cheers - Louis MacNeice


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Not as much as Progress supporting ex-Labour MP Jamie Reid will be as he makes his way to work as head of development and community relations at Sellafield this morning.
> 
> Cheers - Louis MacNeice


Job done; Sir Jamie Reid.


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## rubbershoes (Feb 24, 2017)

7 years of Tory austerity and Labour lose a bye election.

Well done Jeremy.


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## stethoscope (Feb 24, 2017)

rubbershoes said:


> 7 years of Tory austerity and Labour lose a bye election.
> 
> Well done Jeremy.



Jeremy or no Jeremy it makes fuck all difference. The problems of Labour, long term abandonment of the working class, and pursuing of neoliberalism are all part of the problem.


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## kebabking (Feb 24, 2017)

John McDonnell talking bollocks on both Radio 4 and BBC breakfast...

Apparently, the people of Stoke have turned their backs on the politics of UKIP and done us all a favour - it's a pity that more of them voted UKIP, and less of the voted Labour yesterday than they did a mere 2 years ago.

We are then told that the politics of Copeland are unique, that the nuclear industry means it's a no-go area for a 'left' Labour party - how odd then that Labour won Copeland with decent majorities all through its stridently anti-nuclear years in the Eighties.

Utterly, utterly pathetic.


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Jeremy or no Jeremy it makes fuck all difference. The problems of Labour, long term abandonment of the working class, and pursuing of neoliberalism are all part of the problem.


Sticking plasters don't even stick anymore.


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> John McDonnell talking bollocks on both Radio 4 and BBC breakfast...
> 
> Apparently, the people of Stoke have turned their backs on the politics of UKIP and done us all a favour - it's a pity that more of them voted UKIP, and less of the voted Labour yesterday than they did a mere 2 years ago.
> 
> ...


They were voting for a tory (Baron Cuntingham of Falling) throughout that time, though.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Sticking plasters don't even stick anymore.


The beer is sour and the sandwiches curled


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## Old Spark (Feb 24, 2017)

This is London.

On  23rd June 2016 by popular assent the good people of england and wales ,and despite the advice of their traditional representatives,declared war on the EU(not literally of course but to many leavers and remainers thats what it feels like.

We are still in the phoney war,not a shot has been fired in anger-we havent even got our act together to tell the other side we are at war.Why would any of the prowar faction suddenly give up and throw in the towel.And of course those who want war have no alternative but to back the leader who sounds more warlike .Its a no brainer really -a pacifist who tends his allotment or ,and you sense there is nervousness behind their support -a robot that keeps saying parrot fashion war means war ,redwhite and blue.

The pacifist knows theres a war on but his hearts not in it tho he is becoming more street savvy -voting for article 50 relieved Stoke and saved his job as big chief.But he couldnt save Copeland too many of his traditional supporters wanted war.

And the jocks say not in our name and are going to get very very angry before this shout is over.

2020 will be a general election all about the deal ,2025 will be all about the economic consequences of the deal -that is if Trump hasnt blown the world up.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

Oh you needn't worry about Trump blowing up the world, East Asia should satisfy him


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## kebabking (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> They were voting for a tory (Baron Cuntingham of Falling) throughout that time, though.



And this time they could have voted for a decent local candidate who, like Cunningham, was fiercely protective of the nuclear industry while the party at a national level was in deranged fuckwit mode - but they chose not to.


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## Raheem (Feb 24, 2017)

stethoscope said:


> Jeremy or no Jeremy it makes fuck all difference. The problems of Labour, long term abandonment of the working class, and pursuing of neoliberalism are all part of the problem.



Not that I actually disagree, but you need a bit more to explain why their loss in the Tories' gain.


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## hot air baboon (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> John McDonnell talking bollocks on both Radio 4 and BBC breakfast...



Nuttall on Radio 4 ( defiant voice ) : _  ".....UKIP isn't going anywhere and I'm not going anywhere...!"_


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## kebabking (Feb 24, 2017)

hot air baboon said:


> Nuttall on Radio 4 ( defiant voice ) : _  ".....UKIP isn't going anywhere and I'm not going anywhere...!"_



I have the full confidence of the Board...


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

Raheem said:


> Not that I actually disagree, but you need a bit more to explain why their loss in the Tories' gain.


Given that 35% of their supporters voted Leave, I'm surprised that the Lab -> Con swings were not higher. In Stoke Central it was only 2%.


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> I have the full confidence of the Board...


The vermin will certainly be hoping he stays in post. The dopey fucker thinks his target is Labour voters.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

Vintage Paw said:


> He's not a careerist.
> 
> Anyway, the weather is absolutely fucking abysmal. It's definitely going to have an effect.


yeh the aged ukip voters stayed away in droves


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## kebabking (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> The vermin will certainly be hoping he stays in post. The dopey fucker thinks his target is Labour voters.



Half right, imv - I think that post-Brexit UKIP's only real avenue is to go after Labour voters, but that they will continue to be electorally unsuccessful while they've got someone so utterly ridiculous as Nutter as their front man.

The Tories are laughing their tits off.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> The Tories are laughing their tits off.


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Half right, imv - I think that post-Brexit UKIP's only real avenue is to go after Labour voters, but that they will continue to be electorally unsuccessful while they've got someone so utterly ridiculous as Nutter as their front man.
> 
> The Tories are laughing their tits off.


Tory voters 61% L, Lab 35% = fishing in the smaller pond.


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## belboid (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> And this time they could have voted for a decent local candidate who, like Cunningham, was fiercely protective of the nuclear industry while the party at a national level was in deranged fuckwit mode - but they chose not to.


Labour have never been anti nuclear power, not even in the eighties. And they only just won the seat then. If the ukip vote had fallen like it did last night, tories would have won it eighteen months ago too. 

A bad result, but hardly unexpected whoever was leading labour


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## kebabking (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Tory voters 61% L, Lab 35% = fishing in the smaller pond.



Only if you assume that 61% of Tories are unhappy, or likely to be unhappy, with Tory policy on BREXIT - the Tories *were* the bigger pond, but with May and BREXIT they are an inhospitable, dried up saltflat of a pond for UKIP to fish in. Labour on the other hand present rich pickings, or at least potentially rich pickings...


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

kebabking said:


> Only if you assume that 61% of Tories are unhappy, or likely to be unhappy, with Tory policy on BREXIT - the Tories *were* the bigger pond, but with May and BREXIT they are an inhospitable, dried up saltflat of a pond for UKIP to fish in. Labour on the other hand present rich pickings, or at least potentially rich pickings...


Yeah, the point being there is no point to UKIP now.


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

Copeland graph...



Obviously doesn't show swing/churn...but gives quite good clues.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Copeland graph...
> 
> View attachment 101061
> 
> Obviously doesn't show swing/churn...but gives quite good clues.


makes my tum churn


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> Yeah, the point being there is no point to UKIP now.


not since 24/6/16


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## rubbershoes (Feb 24, 2017)

I wonder what it would take for some of the posters on this thread to accept that JC is not the right man for the job.

He's got principles in abundance but if Labour aren't elected he might as well whisper them to his dog


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## killer b (Feb 24, 2017)

I think most of us think there _isn't _a right man for the job.


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## killer b (Feb 24, 2017)

'the job' itself is impossible.


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## tedsplitter (Feb 24, 2017)

Thing about Copeland is while there is heavy industry, there's a lot less than there used to be (there used to be mining and shipbuilding and lots of stuff coming in and out of the ports), pretty high unemployment and poverty and vestiges of deindustrialised working class trad-Labourism, and there's also a lot of farmers and middle class people who live there because it's cheaper than buying in the Lake District. It's not a "safe" one or the other seat, it's a historically Labour seat that has seen a lot of industrial decline and deprivation, decline in traditional working class organisations, and is also somewhat geographically isolated (compared to, say, Carlisle). My mum knows a councillor there who said that Labour Party and trade union organisation in the area are largely hollowed out shells of what they used to be - in line with national trends I suppose.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 24, 2017)

killer b said:


> I think most of us think there _isn't _a right man for the job.



So you're saying Liz Kendall then?


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## treelover (Feb 24, 2017)

Pickman's model said:


> Treelover will be rubbing his hands with glee at the copeland result



Disgusting comment, you really are pathetic, then again ex public schoolboys ostensibly on the left, always have to overcompensate.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

treelover said:


> Disgusting comment, you really are pathetic, then again ex public schoolboys ostensibly on the left, always have to overcompensate.


yeh. it's disgusting. but it's a true comment.

i see you're quite happy to play the auld records as though they had some sort of merit. why do you believe a public school education would undermine the opinions i espouse?


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## brogdale (Feb 24, 2017)

killer b said:


> 'the job' itself is impossible.


A point born out by trying to imagine an Owen Smith led party defending Stoke central.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> A point born out by trying to imagine an Owen Smith led party defending Stoke central.


cue a downfall video


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## emanymton (Feb 24, 2017)

killer b said:


> I think most of us think there _isn't _a right man for the job.


There is also the question of exactly what the job is.


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## gosub (Feb 24, 2017)

brogdale said:


> A point born out by trying to imagine an Owen Smith led party defending Stoke central.


February is a bad month for bbq's and icecream vans


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 24, 2017)

BBC news front page: LABOUR KNEECAPPED IN COPELAND, CORBYN NOT RESIGNING FOR SOME REASON. Stoke? Never heard of it.


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## SpookyFrank (Feb 24, 2017)

killer b said:


> I think most of us think there _isn't _a right man for the job.



Even if you're a believer in parliamentary democracy, the PLP is clearly beyond saving. All they've done for the last two years is shit on their own doorstep.


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## gosub (Feb 24, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> BBC news front page: LABOUR KNEECAPPED IN COPELAND, CORBYN NOT RESIGNING FOR SOME REASON. Stoke? Never heard of it.


Man bites dog.


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## Pickman's model (Feb 24, 2017)

SpookyFrank said:


> Even if you're a believer in parliamentary democracy, the PLP is clearly beyond saving. All they've done for the last two years is shit on their own doorstep.


in that case they've been rather kinder to the electorate than the tories, who for the past seven years have shat on the country.


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## Buckaroo (Jul 8, 2017)

Tristram is on TV now. In a museum. Finally.


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## Vintage Paw (Jul 9, 2017)

He's not missed.


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