# Anarchist Bookfair 2013 October 19th



## jakethesnake (Sep 21, 2013)

http://anarchistbookfair.org.uk/

Who's going? I'm really looking forward to this as I haven't been able to get to one since 1999.


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## emanymton (Sep 21, 2013)

What I can't bring my dog on a string that's me out then!


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## jakethesnake (Sep 21, 2013)

emanymton said:


> What I can't bring my dog on a string that's me out then!


Tell them it's a guide dog, specially trained to alert you to the presence of undercover old bill, trots and revolutionary communists.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 22, 2013)

I won't be in attendance this year.


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## JTG (Sep 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> What I can't bring my dog on a string that's me out then!


Tell us another one Bernard


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## sunny jim (Sep 22, 2013)

Missed it last year due to illness so I'm definitely going.


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 22, 2013)

I am down for a shift on the Datacide stall and possibly helping with one of the radical history things. 

So yeah!


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## steeplejack (Sep 22, 2013)

always an entertaining thread this...fourteen pages of intense theoretical house-to-house fighting over whether it was the right move to "defend the workers' stereo" in Wetherspoon's...about the wrong guy taking a slap in the pub on the basis of someone else's WUM messageboard posts..accusations of lifestyleism, poor hygiene, mental health issues....

...mah...hope you all enjoy it and look forward to reading about the debates and sessions.


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## frogwoman (Sep 22, 2013)

i'll try and be there.


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## The39thStep (Sep 22, 2013)

Will be creosoting a fence , sorry.


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## DotCommunist (Sep 22, 2013)

how you gonna manage that when creosote has been banned for at least five years


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## seventh bullet (Sep 22, 2013)

I can't think of anybody I know who has ever heard of it.


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## love detective (Sep 22, 2013)

even curly wurly fagot face?


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## seventh bullet (Sep 22, 2013)

Who?


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## love detective (Sep 22, 2013)

Mr J, thought he was a fellow Kendallite?


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## seventh bullet (Sep 22, 2013)

I met him once, about five years ago. We had a few beers and an amusing chat about middle class anarchists. Other than that it was online.


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## barney_pig (Sep 23, 2013)

I will try, as I do every year to be there. This year I won't be working, but also won't have started the new job. Therefore I will be skint.


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## TopCat (Sep 23, 2013)

If I go this year it will be to the conference and not just to a massive piss up.


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 23, 2013)

i might be there for a bit but i need to be in milton keynes late afternoon


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 23, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i might be there for a bit but i need to be in milton keynes late afternoon


Ugandan discussions?


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 23, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Ugandan discussions?



if only


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## stethoscope (Sep 23, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I am down for a shift on the Datacide stall and possibly helping with one of the radical history things.
> 
> So yeah!



Should be going - if I do, try and meet up if you're about?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 23, 2013)

I'll be at IKEA that weekend but have fun everyone!


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## Fozzie Bear (Sep 23, 2013)

steph said:


> Should be going - if I do, try and meet up if you're about?



That would be great!


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## kenny g (Sep 24, 2013)

Will be there on the eternal quest to find someone who is an actual anarchist. Always a good day though.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Will be there on the eternal quest to find someone who is an actual anarchist. Always a good day though.


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## Badgers (Sep 25, 2013)

Will be popping along to do some catching up


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## Brixton Hatter (Sep 25, 2013)

I may pop along (if I can fit it around Dulwich Hamlet FC's brave ongoing fight against capitalism)


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## treelover (Sep 25, 2013)

Can someone tell me what the bulk of the anarchists who attend do in between bookfairs?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful book fair and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.

genuine question


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 25, 2013)

treelover said:


> Can someone tell me what the bulk of the anarchists who attend do in between bookfairs?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful book fair and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.
> 
> genuine question



work and raise families, same as most people who are struggling to survive.


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## ffsear (Sep 25, 2013)

"Like all really good ideas Anarchy is pretty simple when you get down to it - human beings are at their very best when they are living free of authority, deciding things among themselves, rather than being ordered about."

Then goes on to say your not allowed to bring your dog


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 25, 2013)

Ho ho ho.







Amirite?!?! Youcouldn'tmakeitup!!!!


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## The Black Hand (Sep 26, 2013)

Can someone tell me what the bulk of the anarchists who attend do in between bookfairs?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful book fair and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.
genuine question


el-ahrairah said:


> work and raise families, same as most people who are struggling to survive.


 
Tbf I think it is a good point - there so very easily could be better politics encouraged, promoted and participated in by most anarchists if they dropped the barriers that prevents them from operating outside of their comfort zones. Of course, there are a very few notable exceptions, but certainly across large areas anarchists seem to prefer to do nothing, or what they do is destined for irrelevance. They seem to be scared of losing control.


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## el-ahrairah (Sep 26, 2013)

so we should quit our jobs, ditch our families, and become roving vagabonds dedicated to taking down the state?


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 26, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> so we should quit our jobs, ditch our families, and become roving vagabonds dedicated to taking down the state?


So long as you stick the Gala into your diaries, yes.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 26, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:
			
		

> so we should quit our jobs, ditch our families, and become roving vagabonds dedicated to taking down the state?



Or at least pretend that's the case online.


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## DaveCinzano (Sep 26, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Or at least pretend that's the case online.


There is no work but the work of Angkar!

There are no families but the family of Angkar!


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## kenny g (Sep 26, 2013)

The Black Hand said:


> Can someone tell me what the bulk of the anarchists who attend do in between bookfairs?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful book fair and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.
> genuine question
> 
> 
> Tbf I think it is a good point - there so very easily could be better politics encouraged, promoted and participated in by most anarchists if they dropped the barriers that prevents them from operating outside of their comfort zones. Of course, there are a very few notable exceptions, but certainly across large areas anarchists seem to prefer to do nothing, or what they do is destined for irrelevance. They seem to be scared of losing control.



Agreed.Last year I saw plenty of @'s handing out fuck loads of flyers to other @'s at the bookfair advertising the bookfair. Completely pointless but far less risky than actually handing them out to Joe public.


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## Kate Sharpley (Oct 11, 2013)

There's a radical history area planned for the bookfair: some individuals from Bristol Radical History Group and Past Tense, among others:

"have put together a series of talks which we hope people will find interesting, but also useful. We don't see 'history' as a dry 'subject'; it isn't separate from our own experiences and the struggles, andsituations we are part of now, and the ideas and movements we hope can help build a freer future"

Details of the talks and exhibitions are available via http://www.past-tense.org.uk/
It's on the third floor, room 315.

11.00 - 12.00 - Solidarity: Martial Law - Capitalism in Poland, 1980-1989
Speaker: Marcin Wawrzyn
12.00 - 1.00 - Running down Whitehall with a black flag: memories of anarchism in the 1960s
Speaker: Di Parkin
1.00 - 2.00 - Anarchist Visual Art, Then and Now?
Speakers: Kev Caplicki and Gee Vaucher
2.00 - 3.30 - Occupying is Good for your Health?
Speakers: Rosanne and Myk.
3.30 - 5.00 - British armed forces' strikes and mutinies in 1918-19: a radical
history project for the anniversary of World War I
Speakers: Roger Ball, Neil Transpontine.


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## kropotkin (Oct 11, 2013)

The first and final talks there sound excellent- especially the last.


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## butchersapron (Oct 11, 2013)

kropotkin said:


> The first and final talks there sound excellent- especially the last.


There's a far wider year long project going on around that K. We have a public meeting on it next tuesday:

Date: Tuesday 15th October, 2013 
Time: 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm
Venue: The Hydra Bookshop
Price: Free



> Nationally there are plans to ensure that attention is given to the real causes and effects of the war, rather than an opportunity for our government to re-habilitate this war in particular or war in general. Bristol has long radical traditions and we know there are groups and individuals across the city who will want to ensure that there are events locally remembering the reality of World War 1. We want to facilitate this. We want to encourage the widest possible range and number of events – meetings, music, theatre, film, exhibitions etc. What might be organised (and how) will largely be determined by the individuals and groups who get involved. The involvement of a wide spectrum of people and groups will ensure a greater cross-fertilisation of ideas; events can be publicised more widely; and they can reach a wider audience. So if you are interested in participating please come along to this meeting.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There's a far wider year long project going on around that K. We have a public meeting on it next tuesday:
> 
> Date: Tuesday 15th October, 2013
> Time: 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm
> ...


there's a lot in local papers which seems to have escaped publick consciousness, for example suicides in hackney due to being unable to take the strain of bombing any more.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 11, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Agreed.Last year I saw plenty of @'s handing out fuck loads of flyers to other @'s at the bookfair advertising the bookfair. Completely pointless but far less risky than actually handing them out to Joe public.


yeh avoiding the danger of talking to people you don't know.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> there's a lot in local papers which seems to have escaped publick consciousness, for example suicides in hackney due to being unable to take the strain of bombing any more.


 
I'd be really interested in a Hackney angle for any of this - presumably that is Hackney Archives job? If you have any resources let me know...


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## kropotkin (Oct 11, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There's a far wider year long project going on around that K. We have a public meeting on it next tuesday:
> 
> Date: Tuesday 15th October, 2013
> Time: 7:00 pm to 9:00 pm
> ...


That is excellent. If I can get back from work in time I'll try to get to that.
Glad to hear that this sort of work is going on


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## The Black Hand (Oct 11, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> so we should quit our jobs, ditch our families, and become roving vagabonds dedicated to taking down the state?


Give over, there's a failure of political ambition, it's blindingly obvious. And I say this not as a roving vagabond, but with a 'fully integrated family' and not a dysfunctional one.


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 11, 2013)

The Black Hand said:


> Give over, there's a failure of political ambition, it's blindingly obvious. And I say this not as a roving vagabond, but with a 'fully integrated family' and not a dysfunctional one.


 
ah, the voice of the last true anarchist in england.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 11, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> ah, the voice of the last true anarchist in england.


Is that the new Levellers single?


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 12, 2013)

He looked like a professor
Reminded me of a girl called Tessa
Met him at a Gala
Was a bit of a palaver
He called me ultra-leftist
Then raised up his left fist
Singing The Internationale
Made me feel a bit gnarly
So I went and had a brew
No, then I went and had two...
_Two brews, two brews
He gave me a thirst
Now I feel cursed
Two brews, two brews
Meeting the very last true anarchist
In England made me wanna get pissed_


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## jakethesnake (Oct 12, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> He looked like a professor
> Reminded me of a girl called Tessa
> Met him at a Gala
> Was a bit of a palaver
> ...


Needs chord diagrams


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 12, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> Needs chord diagrams


Your rules are anathema to a free spirit like me.


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## lazyhack (Oct 12, 2013)

Can someone tell me what the bulk of the bronies who attend do in between bronycon?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful bronycon and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.

genuine question


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## Citizen66 (Oct 12, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Can someone tell me what the bulk of the bronies who attend do in between bronycon?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful bronycon and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.
> 
> genuine question



Mainly taking the piss out of whatever the Guardian is going on about.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 12, 2013)

Genuine question for work or pleasure? (Genuine question)


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## butchersapron (Oct 12, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Can someone tell me what the bulk of the bronies who attend do in between bronycon?, I know some do very positive work, here they have a very successful bronycon and then they seem to be invisible till the next time.
> 
> genuine question


Form brony cells. Which lets you write shite about brony cells and get paid.


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## JHE (Oct 12, 2013)

The Black Hand said:


> Give over, there's a failure of political ambition, it's blindingly obvious.



No.  The problem is NOT that anarcho-wotsits lack ambition.  The problem is that anarcho-wotsits utterly utterly fail to persuade the generality of the population of the desirability and feasibility of their programme.  Your ideas are unpersuasive, not unambitious.


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## lazyhack (Oct 12, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Form brony cells. Which lets you write shite about brony cells and get paid.








_Friendship is magic_


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## JHE (Oct 12, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> _Friendship is magic_



I'd like to think that poster's a piss-take, but I don't think it is.

"For total war and the end of civility"!  It's not exactly designed to win the support or sympathy of Jo Public, is it?


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## Citizen66 (Oct 12, 2013)

It doesn't load for me.


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## jakethesnake (Oct 12, 2013)

JHE said:


> "For total war and the end of civility"!  It's not exactly designed to win the support or sympathy of Jo Public, is it?


or even most anarchists


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## manny-p (Oct 13, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> _Friendship is magic_



Anarcho- Primitivists?


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## The Black Hand (Oct 13, 2013)

JHE said:


> No.  The problem is NOT that anarcho-wotsits lack ambition.  The problem is that anarcho-wotsits utterly utterly fail to persuade the generality of the population of the desirability and feasibility of their programme.  Your ideas are unpersuasive, not unambitious.


Bollocks JHE - you're projecting and stereotyping all at the same time.


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## The Black Hand (Oct 13, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> ah, the voice of the last true anarchist in england.


THat's not argument, it is stereotyping and simplistic.


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## jakethesnake (Oct 13, 2013)

Jacques Erere said:


> I'd consider coming to this if they could guarantee a good latte.


bourgeois separatist


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 13, 2013)

The Black Hand said:


> THat's not argument, it is stereotyping and simplistic.



this isn't arguments, it's insults.  you snot-nosed twit.


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## TopCat (Oct 14, 2013)

I don't think I can be bothered going this year.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 14, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I don't think I can be bothered going this year.


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## JHE (Oct 14, 2013)

The Black Hand said:


> Bollocks JHE - you're projecting and stereotyping all at the same time.



Perhaps I grossly underestimate the popularity of Autonomous Class War or Mayday, Mayday... or whatever your one-man band is currently called.


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## kenny g (Oct 15, 2013)

JHE said:


> Perhaps I grossly underestimate the popularity of Autonomous Class War or Mayday, Mayday... or whatever your one-man band is currently called.



Or perhaps your estimates count for very little in the great scheme of things. Do you actually understand politics?


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## JHE (Oct 16, 2013)

No, obviously not.

Perhaps you and Brigadier Black Hand can enlighten me.


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## jakethesnake (Oct 16, 2013)

Why not come along to the bookfair and read some books, go to some talks?


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## JHE (Oct 16, 2013)

Is Dr Black Hand giving his usual talk on fag-smuggling, fox liberation and the praxis of praxis?


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

Just fuck off eh.


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## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

The timetable looks much better this year.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 16, 2013)

Yes, I am looking forward to it.


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## love detective (Oct 16, 2013)

other than the session on erotic anarchy (i think the left overall have had enough problems with individuals trying to introduce the erotic into the movement) it does look pretty good this year


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## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

love detective said:


> other than the session on erotic anarchy (i think the left overall have had enough problems with individuals trying to introduce the erotic into the movement) it does look pretty good this year


Oh yes, that one was a bit _unusual_


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## love detective (Oct 16, 2013)

I thought the thread below was about recent efforts by notable individuals to introduce the erotic into anarchism

Strange button flashing behaviour..


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## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

love detective said:


> I thought the thread below was about recent efforts by notable individuals to introduce the erotic into anarchism
> 
> Strange button flashing behaviour..




the button


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

There was a Yugoslav filmer whose name escapes me for now who made 'erotic-socialist' films. Does this help?


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There was a Yugoslav filmer whose name escapes me for now who made 'erotic-socialist' films.



Tighto?


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tighto?




_Confessions of a wartime partisan_. No, that doesn't really work does it.


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## cesare (Oct 16, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Tighto?


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## redsquirrel (Oct 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There was a Yugoslav filmer whose name escapes me for now who made 'erotic-socialist' films. Does this help?


Am I the only person who want's to see one of these films now?


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> Am I the only person who want's to see one of these films now?


It's doing my head in trying to think of the blokes name. I know i've mentioned him on here to gorski before but i didn't name him. Think he was mentioned in the Richard Porton Book Film and the anarchist imagination but the index isn't particularly useful.


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## sunnysidedown (Oct 16, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's doing my head in trying to think of the blokes name. I know i've mentioned him on here to gorski before but i didn't name him. Think he was mentioned in the Richard Porton Book Film and the anarchist imagination but the index isn't particularly useful.



Dušan Makavejev?


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## butchersapron (Oct 16, 2013)

sunnysidedown said:


> Dušan Makavejev?


That's the boy i think. Cheers. I knew there was some Reich-connection in there.


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## sunnysidedown (Oct 16, 2013)

Sweet Movie is a classic.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 16, 2013)

Raspberry Reich


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## manny-p (Oct 17, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


>


Thats a 6 month sanction for getting sacked at the old job centre unless you have the bank of mummy and daddy to support you- which as most so called anarchists I have met that is usually the case.


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## TopCat (Oct 17, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Thats a 6 month sanction for getting sacked at the old job centre _*unless you have the bank of mummy and daddy to support you*_- which as most so called anarchists I have met that is usually the case.


This is just untrue, a load of bollocks.


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## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

TopCat said:


> This is just untrue, a load of bollocks.


To be fair, he said "so called anarchists" ie not actual ones.


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## TopCat (Oct 17, 2013)

cesare said:


> To be fair, he said "so called anarchists" ie not actual ones.


it's just lazy stereotyping done for political purposes.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 17, 2013)

That sticker is a bit shit though. And it does pander to the idea that anarchists can somehow live magical lives devoid of the pressures that most people face.


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## cantsin (Oct 17, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That sticker is a bit shit though. And it does pander to the idea that anarchists can somehow live magical lives devoid of the pressures that most people face.



I think  there's an element of aspiration to that sticker/the idea it represents, rather than it being some (abstract) call to arms  - ie : struggling towards  a world beyond shit, uneccessary exploitative work, the idea of the the right *not *to work etc...it's an important message imo.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 17, 2013)

cantsin said:


> I think  there's an element of aspiration to that sticker/the idea it represents, rather than it being some (abstract) call to arms  - ie : struggling towards  a world beyond shit, uneccessary exploitative work, the idea of the the right *not *to work etc...it's an important message imo.


 
I think it can be interpreted in different ways.


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## love detective (Oct 17, 2013)

I think we should celebrate and recognise the important of labour to human beings while seeking to abolish waged-labour and other exploitative forms of it

I mean, what's not to like about this:-

_Labour is, in the first place, a process in which both man and Nature participate, and in which man of his own accord starts, regulates, and controls the material re-actions between himself and Nature. He opposes himself to Nature as one of her own forces, setting in motion arms and legs, head and hands, the natural forces of his body, in order to appropriate Nature’s productions in a form adapted to his own wants.

By thus acting on the external world and changing it, he at the same time changes his own nature. He develops his slumbering powers and compels them to act in obedience to his sway. We are not now dealing with those primitive instinctive forms of labour that remind us of the mere animal....We pre-suppose labour in a form that stamps it as exclusively human. A spider conducts operations that resemble those of a weaver, and a bee puts to shame many an architect in the construction of her cells. But what distinguishes the worst architect from the best of bees is this, that the architect raises his structure in imagination before he erects it in reality. At the end of every labour-process, we get a result that already existed in the imagination of the labourer at its commencement.

He not only effects a change of form in the material on which he works, but he also realises a purpose of his own that gives the law to his modus operandi, and to which he must subordinate his will. And this subordination is no mere momentary act. Besides the exertion of the bodily organs, the process demands that, during the whole operation, the workman’s will be steadily in consonance with his purpose. This means close attention. The less he is attracted by the nature of the work, and the mode in which it is carried on, and the less, therefore, he enjoys it as something which gives play to his bodily and mental powers, the more close his attention is forced to be._

There be no place for generalised laziness in any communist utopia


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## sunny jim (Oct 17, 2013)

Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?


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## Kizmet (Oct 17, 2013)

Wailing, gnashing of teeth and drinking of beer.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 17, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?



I expect there will be a fight


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## cesare (Oct 17, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?


There's a couple of things advertised on the website


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## jakethesnake (Oct 17, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?


Culture Shock gig in Tottenham


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## sunny jim (Oct 17, 2013)

Who's up for going to see Clapton Town v Barking with the Clapton Ultras? They're playing at home, 1.30pm kick off so plenty of time to get back to the land of black hoodies afterwards!
http://claptonultras.tumblr.com/


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## Fedayn (Oct 17, 2013)

seventh bullet said:


> I can't think of anybody I know who has ever heard of it.



Is this who I think it is?


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## redsquirrel (Oct 17, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?


Someone should organise a showing of one of Makavejev's movies. (Thanks sunnysidedown)


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## Onket (Oct 17, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> That sticker is a bit shit though. And it does pander to the idea that anarchists can somehow live magical lives devoid of the pressures that most people face.



It's more than 'a bit' shit! Who the fuck is it aimed at?!


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 17, 2013)

Onket said:


> It's more than 'a bit' shit! Who the fuck is it aimed at?!


Council street furniture clean-up crews


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## ska invita (Oct 18, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Anybody know of anything going on in the evening after the book fair?


theres a disident island thing i think (bands and djs) - not sure if thats the same as the Siren Sound System thing http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/siren-sound-system.316056/#post-12625642


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## sunny jim (Oct 18, 2013)

.


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## manny-p (Oct 18, 2013)

TopCat said:


> This is just untrue, a load of bollocks.


The anarchist 'movement' in the uk ain't like it is in Spain for example. In spain it is largely made up of working class folk and always had an amazing anarchist working class history and tradition unlike here. Think you miss understand where I am coming from.


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## Red Cat (Oct 18, 2013)

manny-p said:


> The anarchist 'movement' in the uk ain't like it is in Spain for example. In spain it is largely made up of working class folk and always had an amazing anarchist working class history and tradition unlike here. Think you miss understand where I am coming from.



Is that still the case in Spain?


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## manny-p (Oct 18, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> Is that still the case in Spain?


Aye from folk i hav met from there it seems to ring true but cud b wrong.


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## barney_pig (Oct 18, 2013)

↑
"Thats a 6 month sanction for getting sacked at the old job centre _*unless you have the bank of mummy and daddy to support you*_- which as most so called anarchists I have met that is usually the case."


"The anarchist 'movement' in the uk ain't like it is in Spain for example. In spain it is largely made up of working class folk and always had an amazing anarchist working class history and tradition unlike here. Think you miss understand where I am coming from."

I think you are trying to be a clever, funny, cunt. But you know fuck all and hide behind lazy stereotypes straight from the Daily Mail and a half remembered half read copy of Orwell.
 Or am I miss understanding you?


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## TopCat (Oct 18, 2013)

The programme does look good this year. I may change my mind and come to the bookfair but not the pub.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 18, 2013)

manny-p said:


> The anarchist 'movement' in the uk ain't like it is in Spain for example. In spain it is largely made up of working class folk and always had an amazing anarchist working class history and tradition unlike here. Think you miss understand where I am coming from.


do you think posting ignorant bollocks makes you look big and clever?


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

TopCat said:


> it's just lazy stereotyping done for political purposes.



What 'political purposes'? For calling out middle class/upper class folk who are highly influential in UK anarchist movements-who turn off/alienate working class people from anarchism/libertarian communism. Your the one that is being lazy here.


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> do you think posting ignorant bollocks makes you look big and clever?



It's fucking reality. Jesus fuck. I am making an honest observation from a working class point of view. Don't intend to be big and clever-whats that got to do with it?


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> ↑
> "Thats a 6 month sanction for getting sacked at the old job centre _*unless you have the bank of mummy and daddy to support you*_- which as most so called anarchists I have met that is usually the case."
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah you are you daft fucking prick. How about reading some of Abel Paz's books and get back to me you fucking toss pot. Cos youse are being called out on the middle class domination of the anarchist 'movement' in the UK youse are getting all defensive. This is not just the anarchist movement btw but is a general theme of the left in the UK with its middle class domination. If you want to put your head in the sand- carry on by all means you fucking cunt but don't try and be patronising to me.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Yeah you are you daft fucking prick. How about reading some of Abel Paz's books and get back to me you fucking toss pot. Cos youse are being called out on the middle class domination of the anarchist 'movement' in the UK youse are getting all defensive. This is not just the anarchist movement btw but is a general theme of the left in the UK with its middle class domination. If you want to put your head in the sand- carry on by all means you fucking cunt but don't try and be patronising to me.


Not just badgers moving the goalposts.


----------



## Badgers (Oct 19, 2013)

barney_pig said:
			
		

> Not just badgers moving the goalposts.



Hullo?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> It's fucking reality. Jesus fuck. I am making an honest observation from a working class point of view. Don't intend to be big and clever-whats that got to do with it?



are you saying working class people are small and stupid?


----------



## kenny g (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> are you saying working class people are small and stupid?



Some must be. Others are probably big and stupid. Some are  big and clever.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> It's fucking reality. Jesus fuck. I am making an honest observation from a working class point of view. Don't intend to be big and clever-whats that got to do with it?


i'm simply wondering why you think ignoring the history of the @ movement in the uk, which makes you look a stupid idiot, advances the point you wish to make: which point is a fact-free assertion.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 19, 2013)

So why not tell us something about that then? You know, for the benefit of those in ignorance. Some of us may find it interesting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> So why not tell us something about that then? You know, for the benefit of those in ignorance. Some of us may find it interesting.


you could do worse than read 'the slow-burning fuse'


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2013)

Could do with being republished & made more accessible.


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you could do worse than read 'the slow-burning fuse'



It's a bit pricey! But will look around.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> It's a bit pricey! But will look around.



20 quid for a copy in (used) good condition is the cheapest I've seen.


----------



## JimW (Oct 19, 2013)

Used to be up online but only the first half as presume the kind soul typing it out (this was back before OCR scanning IIRC) must have run out of time.
Oh, here we go: http://www.geocities.com/~johngray/fusetitl.htm
ETA: Butchers will hopefully be along in a minute with a mediafire link to it in seven formats including braille and pop-up book, as he does


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

Half of it's online at lib-com (via the old John Gray site). But i'd suggest Albert Meltzers' autobiography which extends the narrative of native working class anarchism post war - you can get it on-line here or from AK or cheaper 2nd hand from a number of places.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

JimW said:


> ETA: Butchers will hopefully be along in a minute with a mediafire link to it in seven formats including braille and pop-up book, as he does



I had a spare paperback copy of up until a few weeks ago that i would have been happy to pass on.


----------



## JimW (Oct 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I had a spare paperback copy of up until a few weeks ago that i would have been happy to pass on.


I managed to get it from the library back when as I recall - not sure if that was on interlibrary loan as this was years ago. But you have failed me here - usually one mention of some long lost classic and you're there with the goods. This will not do.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

JimW said:


> I managed to get it from the library back when as I recall - not sure if that was on interlibrary loan as this was years ago. But you have failed me here - usually one mention of some long lost classic and you're there with the goods. This will not do.


There were people scanning it at libcom but they seem to have given up rather easily. And i did hear talk of a reprint a few years back  (Maybe AK, can't remember) but tat also seem to have come to naught.


----------



## JimW (Oct 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There were people scanning it at libcom but they seem to have given up rather easily. And i did hear talk of a reprint a few years back  (Maybe AK, can't remember) but tat also seem to have come to naught.


Do you know anything about the author? Is he still alive? Can't recall him doing anything else.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

JimW said:


> Do you know anything about the author? Is he still alive? Can't recall him doing anything else.


I think he's involved in one of the london radical historian groups - he promised to write a history of the old Solidarity group when he retired a few years back, so he's hopefully on it right now. But, it's been a long time since i heard anything about any progress.


----------



## chilango (Oct 19, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 20 quid for a copy in (used) good condition is the cheapest I've seen.



There's a few sub£20 ones on AbeBooks at the mo. £12 plus p&p seems the cheapest.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

On Quail, here's the note from a back issue of Rev hist:



> KEN Weller has informed us that there is now a Solidarity History Project underway, which will be written by John Quail. Ken adds: ‘Questionnaires flying around like confetti, cellars, attics and garden sheds being turned out, some surprising and interesting stuff being turned up, it is surprising how one’s memory plays tricks.’ He says that it will take several years, and that they are just at the stage of collecting materials. He ends: ‘In the unlikely event that any of your iron-hard Leninist readers know of caches of materials, could they let me know?’ Ken can be contacted via his email address kenweller@ukonline.co.uk, or through Revolutionary History.



Ken himself is an old solidarity stalwart, but i hear he recently gave his entire archive away, which may not auger well for the project.


----------



## chilango (Oct 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Half of it's online at lib-com (via the old John Gray site). But i'd suggest Albert Meltzers' autobiography which extends the narrative of native working class anarchism post war - you can get it on-line here or from AK or cheaper 2nd hand from a number of places.



I've a surplus copy of the Meltzer which will be going spare if I ever get around to clearing my books from my parents attic. It could be a few months still.. frogwoman I haven't forgotten, there'll be books/pamphlets for you one day!


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> are you saying working class people are small and stupid?


You are a cunt of the highest order.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2013)

Looks like JQ has made some progress at least.


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you could do worse than read 'the slow-burning fuse'


Cheers for the suggestion. Listen I don't mean to put down all anarchists in the UK, I know some great working class people who are in anarchist groups and are some of the soundest communists I know. But from my experience there are alot of middle class/upper class people involved who are a massive turn off to working class people especially when they go on about striking and stuff when you know if things went awry for them they could easily just step out and go back to mummy and daddy to bail them out.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Yeah you are you daft fucking prick. How about reading some of Abel Paz's books and get back to me you fucking toss pot. Cos youse are being called out on the middle class domination of the anarchist 'movement' in the UK youse are getting all defensive. This is not just the anarchist movement btw but is a general theme of the left in the UK with its middle class domination. If you want to put your head in the sand- carry on by all means you fucking cunt but don't try and be patronising to me.


Unsure how re reading a historian of the Spanish civil war and the resistance to Franco will teach me about the class background of the modern british anarchist movement. I would direct you to consider the political positions who are the posters on here who have challenged middle class ideas within the socialist and anarchist movement on numerous threads on urban 75, but that would be wasted on you, as you have proved yourself a troll, pure and simple.


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm simply wondering why you think ignoring the history of the @ movement in the uk, which makes you look a stupid idiot, advances the point you wish to make: which point is a fact-free assertion.


I am more talking about now in 2013. In the past if you go back in time abit. Freedom used to be controlled by some people who were liberal as fuck and who had dodgy class politics(if any). Before that some of best working class activists were anarchists especially in the east end of london. Although if you are talking about history the working class anarchists in spain are hard to compare against. As anarchism was never and is not the dominant communist current/school of thought in the UK.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> On Quail, here's the note from a back issue of Rev hist:
> 
> 
> 
> Ken himself is an old solidarity stalwart, but i hear he recently gave his entire archive away, which may not auger well for the project.


Visiting him a few years back resulted in me virtually unable to lift the bags of pamphlets he pressed on me


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Unsure how re reading a historian of the Spanish civil war and the resistance to Franco will teach me about the class background of the modern british anarchist movement. I would direct you to consider the political positions who are the posters on here who have challenged middle class ideas within the socialist and anarchist movement on numerous threads on urban 75, but that would be wasted on you, as you have proved yourself a troll, pure and simple.


If you read my comments- I am anything but a troll. You came out all guns blazing with me cos u thought I was and now look at u. Also that is a complete strawman argument as I mentioned Abel Paz's books cause you claimed that I had read half of Homage to Catalunia and was giving my opinion on the Spanish Anarchist movement from that.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> You are a cunt of the highest order.


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


>



Stop posting images of yourself and stop pm-ing me pics.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Stop posting images of yourself and stop pm-ing me pics.



are you on drugs again?


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2013)

chilango said:


> There's a few sub£20 ones on AbeBooks at the mo. £12 plus p&p seems the cheapest.



Cheers for that, I'll order a copy forthwith!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Cheers for the suggestion. Listen I don't mean to put down all anarchists in the UK, I know some great working class people who are in anarchist groups and are some of the soundest communists I know. But from my experience there are alot of middle class/upper class people involved who are a massive turn off to working class people especially when they go on about striking and stuff when you know if things went awry for them they could easily just step out and go back to mummy and daddy to bail them out.


i appreciate your pov but ime the movement is not dominatedby the people you identify, although like you i have encountrred this phenomenon


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> If you read my comments- I am anything but a troll. You came out all guns blazing with me cos u thought I was and now look at u. Also that is a complete strawman argument as I mentioned Abel Paz's books cause you claimed that I had read half of Homage to Catalunia and was giving my opinion on the Spanish Anarchist movement from that.


for the record have you read all of homage to catalonia?


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> for the record have you read all of homage to catalonia?


Lol yep I have.


----------



## chilango (Oct 19, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Cheers for that, I'll order a copy forthwith!



Always worth checking yer local charity bookshop too. Someone has dumped a load of their old Anarcho/lefty ones in our local oxfam. Their politics shelf is now dominated by AK Press titles.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 19, 2013)

I ll pop in and have a look.


----------



## chilango (Oct 19, 2013)

chilango said:


> Always worth checking yer local charity bookshop too. Someone has dumped a load of their old Anarcho/lefty ones in our local oxfam. Their politics shelf is now dominated by AK Press titles.



I don't know why you're all liking this...it wasn't me, and they're not AK's best either!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

chilango said:


> I don't know why you're all liking this...it wasn't me, and they're not AK's best either!


why do you think they were dumped? as someone who gives to ak by standing order i get a copy of all their books, and believe me few of them make their way onto my bookshelves.


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 19, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> 20 quid for a copy in (used) good condition is the cheapest I've seen.



*Re: Slow Burning Fuse.* 

Somebody should scan it in and put it on libcom. Not Quail himself. That lazy git is still working on his history of Solidarity.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> *Re: Slow Burning Fuse.*
> 
> Somebody should scan it in and put it on libcom.



Half of it has been scanned, according to a previous butcher's post.


----------



## cesare (Oct 19, 2013)

We had to get there early this year cos the banner was needed for the stall, so having accomplished that mission plus a quick snoop we went and had breakfast in Spoons before going back. Met the lovely steph and we had a better look round again before back to Spoons with Steph.

The venue was good, much better and bigger with natural light and more rooms. Decent amount of people and smell not too bad  Not sure what it'll be like later post rain  Good to briefly meet ska invita too 

Was good


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 19, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> *Re: Slow Burning Fuse.*
> 
> Somebody should scan it in and put it on libcom. Not Quail himself. That lazy git is still working on his history of Solidarity.


slow scanning quail


----------



## manny-p (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> are you on drugs again?


aye. rather drug myself up that bare the smell of the place although there was some great looking talks I would have liked to have seen. Anyone know if they are putting some of them on youtube?


----------



## stethoscope (Oct 19, 2013)

Ace to finally meet @cesare and @the button, and @Fozzie Bear (cheers for the record trade ) as well as @ska invita and @frogwoman 

Managed to not get to any meetings once again


----------



## Onket (Oct 19, 2013)

steph said:


> Ace to finally meet @cesare and @the button, and @Fozzie Bear (cheers for the record trade ) as well as @ska invita and @frogwoman
> 
> Managed to not get to any meetings once again



A whos who of sound posters.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

yup!


----------



## krink (Oct 19, 2013)

on twitter they said there was trouble with anon? i just want to know about the fights.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 19, 2013)

I had a great day. Been going on and off for 25 years now and I reckon this was the best. 

On my phone so I won't name check everyone, but top crew basically.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 19, 2013)

krink said:


> on twitter they said there was trouble with anon? i just want to know about the fights.



Me and Steph got ninja-flyered by someone from Anonymous. Dunno about anything else.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Freedom used to be controlled by some people who were liberal as fuck and who had dodgy class politics(if any)..


the newspaper? the bookshop? or the publishing house? or the concept in general?


----------



## kenny g (Oct 19, 2013)

It was good this year. Plenty of new faces and good contributions to discussions.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 19, 2013)

missed it again.

as usual

d'oh.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 19, 2013)

krink said:


> on twitter they said there was trouble with anon? i just want to know about the fights.



Clocked a load of that earlier. Not just annon apparently. Some very unhappy & pissed off folk.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 19, 2013)

I was going to go to the meeting about why not to use Prof Harvey's lectures when reading Capital. I assumed it would be a handful of earnest nerds like me and two loons from the ICC. 

I couldn't get in the room - it was rammed out with people who looked like they were in their 20s and 30s. 

I think that's fantastic.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 19, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Clocked a load of that earlier. Not just annon apparently. Some very unhappy & pissed off folk.



Been going for years and yet to see a fight, this year included. Who were the unhappy folk?


----------



## Balbi (Oct 19, 2013)

I'm hearing they put the radical feminism stall next to the sex worker stall. That was clever.

And Assange supporters, recording film of people arguing with them about the rape allegations


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I'm hearing they put the radical feminism stall next to the sex worker stall. That was clever.
> 
> And Assange supporters, recording film of people arguing with them about the rape allegations


fucking hell


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Oct 19, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I'm hearing they put the radical feminism stall next to the sex worker stall. That was clever.
> 
> And Assange supporters, recording film of people arguing with them about the rape allegations


there aren't enough facepalms in the world.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

why wouldn't you put the lasses together?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

sorry frogwoman my phone died, did look round but couldn't find you, looks like you met up with some people though

I did get to meet up with Oxpecker and Sovietpop among others which was cool...

The bookfair did stink to high heaven though, the Wetherspoons was a blessed relief.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> why wouldn't you put the lasses together?


you're joking, right?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> you're joking, right?


 of course, fucking hell it's mad!


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 19, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> of course, fucking hell it's mad!


my irony detector's on the blink tonight


----------



## JHE (Oct 19, 2013)

kenny g said:


> It was good this year.



Yes.  It was great.

For me, the highlight was the Anti-Militarist Men's Body-Painting Workshop.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 19, 2013)

JHE said:


> Yes.  It was great.
> 
> For me, the highlight was the Anti-Militarist Men's Body-Painting Workshop.



Yawn.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 19, 2013)

the old ones are not always the best especially when it comes to nude anarchists


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Half of it's online at lib-com (via the old John Gray site). But i'd suggest Albert Meltzers' autobiography which extends the narrative of native working class anarchism post war - you can get it on-line here or from AK or cheaper 2nd hand from a number of places.



Oh that looks like my kind of thing


----------



## Red Cat (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> We had to get there early this year cos the banner was needed for the stall, so having accomplished that mission plus a quick snoop we went and had breakfast in Spoons before going back. Met the lovely steph and we had a better look round again before back to Spoons with Steph.
> 
> The venue was good, much better and bigger with natural light and more rooms.



Wasn't it in Queen Mary again?

What was your stall cesare?


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Red Cat said:


> Wasn't it in Queen Mary again?
> 
> What was your stall cesare?


Yes, Queen Mary again. This year it was just off Library Square. It was the solfed stall, but not mine (I'm not a member). 

It sounds a small thing, but I really liked the red and black bunting that they'd hung around the entrance and across the square


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> There were people scanning it at libcom but they seem to have given up rather easily. And i did hear talk of a reprint a few years back  (Maybe AK, can't remember) but tat also seem to have come to naught.



Freedom Press were going to do it. I emailed them a while back to ask about it but they never replied. 

I think Libcom were asked not to scan the rest of it because of the reprint?

ETA: http://www.libcom.org/forums/history/john-quails-slow-burning-fuse-help-needed-07092011


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Looks like it may have fallen between two stools then.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2013)

I stayed at home and did five loads of washing and tidied up the house.

Hope you all had a great time.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 20, 2013)

TopCat said:


> five loads of washing



It's the drying that kills you, mind


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> And Assange supporters, recording film of people arguing with them about the rape allegations


From what I saw it was more the other way round. A group of feminists trying to stop someone with an Australian accent doing an outdoor meeting in the square by chanting "rape apologist" and "no platform". I thought anarchists used to defend free speech. It appears that some are only opposed to the state restricting this, prefering direct action as the way to do it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> From what I saw it was more the other way round. A group of feminists trying to stop someone with an Australian accent doing an outdoor meeting in the square by chanting "rape apologist" and "no platform". I thought anarchists used to defend free speech. It appears that some are only opposed to the state restricting this, prefering direct action as the way to do it.


If someone wants to broadcast rape apology outside the Bookfair, they can pretty much expect a reaction to it


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> From what I saw it was more the other way round. A group of feminists trying to stop someone with an Australian accent doing an outdoor meeting in the square by chanting "rape apologist" and "no platform". I thought anarchists used to defend free speech. It appears that some are only opposed to the state restricting this, prefering direct action as the way to do it.


Was s/he doing rape apologism?

And no, it's you and your SPGB with the fetishism of bourgeois free-speech. Note though, you don't have the same fetishism over freedom of response.


----------



## Balbi (Oct 20, 2013)

I'm with no platforming Assange until he bottles up and goes to Sweden tbqh. But thanks, I had got one set of information, now I have another.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Was s/he doing rape apologism?


As far as I could hear he was congratulating Manning and Snowden for being whistleblowers as well as talking about his Irish-Australian background and various prisons he'd been in. He was quite amusing. At one point he said he had met a bank robber in prison who told him (he said) that people won't stop robbing banks until banks stop robbing people. Pity the meeting got broken. I think that, in the absence of Assange, they were taking it out on him. Is "No platform for wikileaks" now the policy? He used to speak in Hyde Park but his meetings there were never broken up.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

So you don't actually know if he was doing rape apologism?


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> As far as I could hear he was congratulating Manning and Snowden for being whistleblowers as well as talking about his Irish-Australian background and various prisons he'd been in. He was quite amusing. At one point he said he had met a bank robber in prison who told him (he said) that people won't stop robbing banks until banks stop robbing people. Pity the meeting got broken. I think that, in the absence of Assange, they were taking it out on him. Is "No platform for wikileaks" now the policy? He used to speak in Hyde Park but his meetings there were never broken up.


How on earth can you term some random speaking outside the Bookfair as a "meeting"?


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So you don't actually know if he was doing rape apologism?


I never heard him say anything like that and I doubt if he would. He'd have to be an idiot to do so.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> How on earth can you term some random speaking outside the Bookfair as a "meeting"?


Well, he was standing on a bench or something with people standing or sitting and listening to him (just like at Hyde Park). Actually, his main theme was anti-war and anti-imperialism.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> I never heard him say anything like that and I doubt if he would. He'd have to be an idiot to do so.


So what you're saying is that he might have been doing some public rape apologism but you don't really know?


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> Well, he was standing on a bench or something with people standing or sitting and listening to him (just like at Hyde Park). Actually, his main theme was anti-war and anti-imperialism.


He wasn't part of the Bookfair, he just decided to wander in to Queen Mary's for his own purposes. It's entirely up to Queen Mary's whether or not they let him do it on their grounds but he was clearly nothing to do with the event so your use of "meeting" is dishonest. And public Speaker's Corner is nothing like University grounds so the comparison is daft.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> So what you're saying is that he might have been doing some public rape apologism but you don't really know?


No, I'm not. I listened to him for about 15 minutes before he was shouted down. He never said anything about rape. Why would he? That wasn't his subject. I have the advantage of having been there. I don't think much of your logic. It is true that at the meeting organised by the Marxist-Humanists on class consciousness the speaker might have been doing some public rape apology but I don't really know. This is when did you stop beating your wife stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> No, I'm not. I listened to him for about 15 minutes before he was shouted down. He never said anything about rape. Why would he? That wasn't his subject. I have the advantage of having been there. I don't think much of your logic. It is true that at the meeting organised by the Marxist-Humanists on class consciousness the speaker might have been doing some public rape apology but I don't really know. This is when did you stop beating your wife stuff.


You don't like my logic? Ok, let's get this straight. Did you hear the entirety of his shouting in the square?


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> He wasn't part of the Bookfair, he just decided to wander in to Queen Mary's for his own purposes. It's entirely up to Queen Mary's whether or not they let him do it on their grounds but he was clearly nothing to do with the event so your use of "meeting" is dishonest. And public Speaker's Corner is nothing like University grounds so the comparison is daft.


I don't know what your point is. I never said it was part of the event or suggested that it was an "official" meeting, but it was broken up by some of those attending the event, more the sort of thing you expect at an SWP rather than an anarchist event.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

It was the main bloke from Catholic Worker by the sound of it, and there has been a background from a few months ago of him respondng in a sexist way and attempting to bully some women who asked him quite politely to stop posting about all the Assange stuff on one of the email lists. 

I didn't see the incident yesterday so no idea what happened then, but I wouldn't be surprised if there was a conection to the previous spat.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> You don't like my logic? Ok, let's get this straight. Did you hear the entirety of his shouting in the square?


Actually I did until the meeting was broken up. I left at 5pm so I don't know what might have happened after that but I can say categorically that until the meeting was broken he was only talking about war, imperialism, Manning, Snowden and his own Irish-Australian origins. If you've got any witnesses that say otherwise bring them forward.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

How do I know I can trust what you say? Because, going from your posts on here, I don't. Can you say for sure he hadn't said anything before you arrived? Or  as suggested above, elsewhere?


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## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It was the main bloke from Catholic Worker by the sound of it


Yes, he did say he was a "Catholic anarchist" and that was his theme when he spoke at Hyde Park.


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> I don't know what your point is. I never said it was part of the event or suggested that it was an "official" meeting, but it was broken up by some of those attending the event, more the sort of thing you expect at an SWP rather than an anarchist event.


You characterised it as an outside "meeting" in the context of an event which had a timetable of meetings inside at the _ actual event_. In short, the way you described it sounded as though it was part of the event  but outside rather than inside. You also drew a comparison with Hyde Park, which is ridiculous as Speakers Corner is an established public space for anyone to get on their soapbox. Queen Mary's is not an established public space for people to get on their soapboxes. 

He decided that wandering into a University and standing outside the Bookfair for his protelytising was a good idea. Obviously some people agreed or at least were listening. Other people didn't agree and their freedom of response was just as valid as his freedom of speech. If you pick an audience where a sizeable majority aren't particularly receptive, then you've no reason to whinge if it doesn't go down well


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> How do I know I can trust what you say? Because, going from your posts on here, I don't. Can you say for sure he hadn't said anything before you arrived? Or  as suggested above, elsewhere?


I don't know what he might have said elsewhere since I wasn't there, but I was there when he started speaking till he was forced to stop. During that period he did not defend rape or even mention it.


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## Mr.Bishie (Oct 20, 2013)

http://pastebin.com/uEyAmLUQ


----------



## Balbi (Oct 20, 2013)

There's so many 'wah, there's people younger than me' points in that post, isn't there? 'New Dogma', because you can't teach the old dogma new tricks. Reference to the Women Against Rape article in the graun as well, which http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2012/aug/23/women-against-rape-julian-assange I seem to recall got the shit kicked out of it when it was published in August 2012 for being based on, er, not very fucking much.



> Currently of course Assange is living in the Ecuadorian embassy to avoid extradition to Sweden where two allegations of rape have been made. His supporters allege that that this is merely the first step towards an eventual extradition to the U.S where he will suffer the same fate as Manning. Given the nature of Realpolitik and the global reach of U.S power this seems likely.



No it doesn't.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 20, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I stayed at home and did five loads of washing and tidied up the house.
> 
> Hope you all had a great time.



I fucked off to Portugal for five days and made the best of the Eurozone crisis


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

Sounds like there was quite a lot more in the way of shouting and rowing than just the incident involving the Australian dude outside. Twitter is full of anarcho-intersectionalists giving out about how terrible everything was, but as they tend to talk in terms of how generally fucked everything was, and how threatened it made them feel rather than in more specific terms, I'm not really clear what the other incidents were.

I suppose in an anarcho-intersectionalist versus Assangist-Guy Fawksist row we have to offer critical but unconditional support to the intersectionalistas.


----------



## rioted (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I suppose in an anarcho-intersectionalist versus Assangist-Guy Fawksist row we have to offer critical but unconditional support to the intersectionalistas.


Drama queens, the lot of them.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 20, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I was going to go to the meeting about why not to use Prof Harvey's lectures when reading Capital. I assumed it would be a handful of earnest nerds like me and two loons from the ICC.
> 
> I couldn't get in the room - it was rammed out with people who looked like they were in their 20s and 30s.
> 
> I think that's fantastic.


i was queuing at veggies and it was taking ages, so got talking to the guy infront, asked him if he'd been to any good talks - he highlighted this one, and did his best to explain what their problem with Harvey was - i didn't really understand a word of it, but seems like not only did it draw a crowd, at least some people understood it too. If you'd like to recap Fozzie, go for it! 

Anarchism & Marxism talk was also packed with people not able to get in, though i thought the talk was a bit of a let down (mainly going over bolshevik shenannigans, historical stuff with little about the present). The fact so many people wanted to be there was the most interesting thing about it. I think anarchism has definitely had a big influence on young marxists, who are a lot less tolerant of hierarchical party structures for one. The issue that didnt really get gotten to is is there room or a desire for the relationship to go the other way too? The speaker (a communist, i forget which group) was trying to encourage anarchists to organise into a coherent whole (whether using the term 'party' or 'federation' or whatever), and felt that the movement was too fractured, but there wasnt really much time to get into it deeper.

Did anyone catch the Panthers? How was that?

Oh and the talk about Solidarnosc was fascinating. An opportunity lost and a lesson in power and corruption.


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## kenny g (Oct 20, 2013)

One of the first questions to the two speakers related to the ex-Black Panther members concerned Eldrige Cleaver's conviction for rape and the speakers therefore alleged  association with convicted rapists. The speaker's answer appeared to be taken on board by the questioner who did not follow up. Hearing about what happened later outside, I wonder why the two speakers were not shouted down and denied a platform? Perhaps it is easier to pick on a man standing on  a bench than two people behind a desk in a lecture theatre. In both cases, denying someone a platform should be reserved for specific circumstances. I would consider it for Assange as he is a fugitive from sex offence allegations - I have strong doubts about denying any platform for people who wish to defend Wikileaks.


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Were the speakers providing a platform for some sort of rape apologism. FFS think about what you just said.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 20, 2013)

Di Parkin was great on being an anarchist in the 60s. (And superbly facilitated, cough cough)

The meeting on World War 1 was brilliant. (The much missed Sihhi attended and was on great form).


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Di Parkin was great on being an anarchist in the 60s. (And superbly facilitated, cough cough)
> 
> The meeting on World War 1 was brilliant. (The much missed Sihhi attended and was on great form).


Di is great full stop. I'm waiting for the BRHG group debrief later.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 20, 2013)

I will reiterate that I was there from 10am until about 6 and I saw no dramas. 

From twitter you would think that the entire day was dominated by these huge slanging matches and that such and such an attitude is somehow representative of the event and the UK anarchist movement. 

I think it's right that wikileaks people are challenged about Assange, though.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Di is great full stop. I'm waiting for the BRHG group debrief later.



The WW1 guy from Bristol was great too. Something in the water down there...


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> The WW1 guy from Bristol was great too. Something in the water down there...


That's RB, lives next door to me. Bald cunt.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 20, 2013)

I can only imagine the chats over the garden fence. 



butchersapron said:


> That's RB, lives next door to me. Bald cunt.


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

> LaDIYfest Sheffield
> In the day-time, workshops will be held at the Quaker Meeting House by the Cathedral, running between 11am - 5:30pm with vegan food and refreshments for sale, plus zines, stalls, a quiet room and a supervised children's area.
> Workshop themes include:
> MEN AND FEMINISM
> ...


 
Looks like the intersectionalistas are growing, national Ladyfest event, no mention(yet) of such trivia as the Bedroom Tax and even more so Zero Hours Contracts which are massively impacting WC women.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

LM from Newcastle talking of historians


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

The twitter intersectionalistas are asking for people who had oppressive experiences at the bookfair to send emails to one of them who is constructing a timeline of events. So we'll soon have the other side of the story to that "poor Catholic Anarchist dude" piece linked to above.


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I can only imagine the chats over the garden fence.


Other people borrow a power drill, but with these two it's all traffic in dusty pamphlets.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The twitter intersectionalistas are asking for people who had oppressive experiences at the bookfair to send emails to one of them who is constructing a timeline of events. So we'll soon have the other side of the story to that "poor Catholic Anarchist dude" piece linked to above.



fucking hell they're everywhere like rats


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> fucking hell they're everywhere like rats



The more radical end of the intersectionalistas/privilegists on twitter generally identify as anarchists.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The more radical end of the intersectionalistas/privilegists on twitter generally identify as anarchists.


Prove it. What does radical mean here?


----------



## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The twitter intersectionalistas are asking for people who had oppressive experiences at the bookfair to send emails to one of them who is constructing a timeline of events. So we'll soon have the other side of the story to that "poor Catholic Anarchist dude" piece linked to above.


 

any links?


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Prove it. What does radical mean here?



Prove it? Seriously? You still think I'm making this up even after the WSM published intersectionalist stuff, the AF women's caucus produced a lengthy intersectionalist document, etc?

Go take a look at twitter. People like Stavvers and Sam Ambreen, two of the most prominent UK twitter intersectionalists. What does it say in their profiles? Anarchist and intersectional. This is a real thing. There is a crossover between some more feminist inclined anarchists and some more left inclined intersectional liberals. There are many less prominent examples (neonblack1871, mediocre dave, just intersectional etc etc). This is why the intersectionalists are doing their timeline thing: quite a few of them were actually there.

By "radical" here I meant not the most impassioned but the most generally left wing, some of whom also try to fit this stuff into a class analysis (or perhaps try to fit a class analysis into this stuff).


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## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

I think the anarchist naming of itself is not accurate. (edit: on review i don't know what that means  but i like it) I also still don't think it's happening. We've been through you misunderstanding the AF doc as policy a well. These others, passing - no commitment to organisation politics. In the sane way that people used to pretend to be marxist to scare their parents. This is *not *happening.


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

Just looked at their blogs, where have these people come from?, there were always some like that around RTS, etc, but not so prominent, social media, I guess.


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## treelover (Oct 20, 2013)

Btw, Femen are planning to set up a Uk network and are 'in talks with feminists' they will focus on FGM and sex trade, be very interesting to see how the above and much of the left respond.


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## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I think the anarchist naming of itself is not accurate. (edit: on review i don't know what that means  but i like it) I also still don't think it's happening. We've been through you misunderstanding the AF doc as policy a well. These others, passing - no commitment to organisation politics. In the sane way that people used to pretend to be marxist to scare their parents. This is *not *happening.



I fully understand that the AF women's caucus document was a women's caucus document and not AF policy. But the fact that it was produced by the women's caucus indicates that those ideas have some purchase in that milieu. Just as the WSM publishing intersectional material indicates the same, even though they haven't actually replaced their position papers with privilege politics. But the spread of these ideas has been faster in disorganised parts of anarchism, certainly.

As for "the anarchist naming of itself" bit, well that's another issue. A lot of these people are essentially liberals, adopting the anarchist tag. But there are also people coming out of "proper anarchism" in the same circles, having the same twitter conversations, with the same people. This stuff has a pull. I mentioned before being stunned to find an SP intersectionalist on twitter. Look at how it's at least tolerated on libcom of all places (and I'm sure you remember how identity politics stuff of any stripe used to go down there).


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> fucking hell they're everywhere like rats


I actually properly laughed out loud at that.


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Can anyone from the AF explain why they were flogging Durrutti stuff?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I fully understand that the AF women's caucus document was a women's caucus document and not AF policy. But the fact that it was produced by the women's caucus indicates that those ideas have some purchase in that milieu. Just as the WSM publishing intersectional material indicates the same, even though they haven't actually replaced their position papers with privilege politics. But the spread of these ideas has been faster in disorganised parts of anarchism, certainly.
> 
> As for "the anarchist naming of itself" bit, well that's another issue. A lot of these people are essentially liberals, adopting the anarchist tag. But there are also people coming out of "proper anarchism" in the same circles, having the same twitter conversations, with the same people. This stuff has a pull. I mentioned before being stunned to find an SP intersectionalist on twitter. Look at how it's at least tolerated on libcom of all places (and I'm sure you remember how identity politics stuff of any stripe used to go down there).


It was one yank from a private college. (AF that is)

Sorry nigel, this is still not my experience.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> Can anyone from the AF explain why they were flogging Durrutti stuff?


Eh?


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Eh?


I would have thought that the syndicalism aspect (Durutti being a bit of a poster boy for it) would signal the difference that traditionally keeps them at opposite ends of the hall?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> I would have thought that the syndicalism aspect (Durutti being a bit of a poster boy for it) would signal the difference that traditionally keeps them at opposite ends of the hall?



he was FAI though wasn't he?


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> I would have thought that the syndicalism aspect (Durutti being a bit of a poster boy for it) would signal the difference that traditionally keeps them at opposite ends of the hall?


Or, being an anarcho-communist sol-fed can't sell books about him.


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)




----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It was one yank from a private college. (AF that is)[/quote
> 
> Sorry nigel, this is still not my experience.



Sure, and the driving force behind the WSM giving this stuff an outing is probably one or two people. And those libcommers who now favour it probably aren't exactly legion either. And the twitter conversations involve no more than dozens. I'm not claiming that it has taken over. Just that it's now present and acceptable and growing in anarchist circles. And that's how the most left-inclined twitter intersectionalists factually do describe themselves.

I doubt if this stuff is too much of a force on the ground as of yet, but if you follow a bunch of anarchists and feminists on twitter you can't avoid it.


----------



## cesare (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Sure, and the driving force behind the WSM giving this stuff an outing is probably one or two people. And those libcommers who now favour it probably aren't exactly legion either. And the twitter conversations involve no more than dozens. I'm not claiming that it has taken over. Just that it's now present and acceptable and growing in anarchist circles. And that's how the most left-inclined twitter intersectionalists factually do describe themselves.
> 
> I doubt if this stuff is too much of a force on the ground as of yet, but if you follow a bunch of anarchists and feminists on twitter you can't avoid it.


All this tells us is that you think that a few active anarchist twitterers represent anarchists.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Sure, and the driving force behind the WSM giving this stuff an outing is probably one or two people. And those libcommers who now favour it probably aren't exactly legion either. And the twitter conversations involve no more than dozens. I'm not claiming that it has taken over. Just that it's now present and acceptable and growing in anarchist circles. And that's how the most left-inclined twitter intersectionalists factually do describe themselves.
> 
> I doubt if this stuff is too much of a force on the ground as of yet, but if you follow a bunch of anarchists and feminists on twitter you can't avoid it.



It's fair to say that intersectionalism is growing generally in leftist and liberal circles but it does seem to be overwhelmingly concentrated in the younger more studenty and mobile (dare I say rootless) elements a bit like how in the past Crimethinc and Primitivism stuff has been with some... However the adaptability of intersectionalism might well suggest it will have more staying power than those, and certainly a much broader reach. Do not think the CWI is immune.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

as an aside I pushed in front of one of the ICC loons at the bar in the Wetherspoons, thought to myself for a second shall I let him go first? Nah.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

cesare said:


> All this tells us is that you think that a few active anarchist twitterers represent anarchists.



It really shouldn't. Saying that the more radical end of the twitter intersectionalists tend to call themselves anarchists is a statement of fact, but it in no way implies that a large percentage of anarchists are intersectionalists. The intersectionalists are noisy and growing but still relatively few, particularly at the more radical end of their spectrum (which is where the crossover happens).


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Do not think the CWI is immune.



Certainly not.

For overlapping but slightly different reasons, the Anarchists and the SWSS groups were the easiest places on the far left for this stuff to get a few footholds, but if this stuff continues to spread and proves tenacious, then everyone will be effected. Lots of potential recruits will encounter intersectionalist arguments on social media long before they come across any left group. 

The CWI's general policy of eying any fashionable idea suspiciously for at least a decade and a half before deciding whether we want anything to do with it may make sure that the organisation itself doesn't actively encourage it. But these sort of ideas will still come in from below, with new members. As I said above, I've already seen one on twitter, which took a bit of the shine off any schadenfreude I might have been inclined towards.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> The CWI's general policy of eying any fashionable idea suspiciously for at least a decade and a half before deciding whether we want anything to do with it


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 20, 2013)

treelover said:


> Looks like the intersectionalistas are growing, national Ladyfest event, no mention(yet) of such trivia as the Bedroom Tax and even more so Zero Hours Contracts which are massively impacting WC women.


have you even *heard* of ladyfest before? or what they usually put on?
they are primarily an arts and music event ffs.

have you got a link for LadyFest Sheffield's 'national event'? it's just that we had LadyFest Leeds here this weekend, and it seemed fairly local to me.

actually - apologies - i misread their name 
laDIYfest.  my mistake.







i'm assuming you've been actively involved in letting them know what they're failing to do, and they've excluded you and ignored your suggestions?

and thank you for the link - i'm going to try and get to this event. couldn't go to ladyfest leeds one because it was at the venue that your rapey mate goes to, and i'm not setting foot in there (oh, the irony).

same with the bookfair - the several pies with his fingers in had stalls yesterday. Someone did suggest that part of the reason i didn't go is because i'm an undercover and 'have 'Clearly pissed off and been ostricised' (rightfully) by the Activist Community' for speaking out about my rape. but they are the ones Doing It Right. cheers for that, editor of freedom newspaper!
(edit: my mistake. i've re-read her rants. she didn't suggest it because i wasn't at the bookfair, but because i've said that although the police have been utterly monstrous with me this year, they've treated me relatively humanely when i've reported sexual assault in the past. so, my not agreeing 100% with acab seems to be the root of her fucking weird episode. glad there's someone responsible steering the Anarchist Press Ship)

been a bit of a trigger weekend - apologies for the rant. i think i needed it.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

I must admit, group of women get together and decide to plan fun stuff they like doesn't seem like crime of the century.


----------



## caleb (Oct 20, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It was one yank from a private college. (AF that is)
> 
> Sorry nigel, this is still not my experience.



I think it's not your experience because these people don't really have any presence beyond the internet and student politics. It's not a case of seasoned anarchists suddenly all taking up "intersectionality", but of intersectionalists identifying as anarchists - and Nigel is right, take a look at twitter and there's certainly a sizeable group of such people like this, whose politics are essentially liberal (despite proclamations of 'FULL COMMUNISM'), and in that sense you hit the nail on the head when you said "the naming of itself is not accurate".

edit: Another popular self-descriptor is "autonomist" actually


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

caleb said:


> I think it's not your experience because these people don't really have any presence beyond the internet and student politics. It's not a case of seasoned anarchists suddenly all taking up "intersectionality", but of intersectionalists identifying as anarchists - and Nigel is right, take a look at twitter and there's certainly a sizeable group of such people like this, whose politics are essentially liberal (despite proclamations of 'FULL COMMUNISM'), and in that sense you hit the nail on the head when you said "the naming of itself is not accurate".


So they're coming this way --> anarchsim--<and i'm coming this way, and i'm not using it as a fashion term.


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## gawkrodger (Oct 20, 2013)

now I haven't been to a bookfair for years, and have little interaction with the anarchist 'mileau', but what the fuck is 'intersectionalism'?

oh, and a summary (or recording) of the Harvey discussion would be good


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> now I haven't been to a bookfair for years, and have little interaction with the anarchist 'mileau', but what the fuck is 'intersectionalism'?
> 
> oh, and a summary (or recording) of the Harvey discussion would be good


intersectionalism is a sign someone's up their own jaxi


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> now I haven't been to a bookfair for years, and have little interaction with the anarchist 'mileau', but what the fuck is 'intersectionalism'?
> 
> oh, and a summary (or recording) of the Harvey discussion would be good




privilege theory rebranded


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> privilege theory rebranded


not a very good rebranding


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 20, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> privilege theory rebranded



oh fuck that for a game of jokers


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> oh fuck that for a game of jokers




some of the less edifying twitter meltdowns are beginning to resemble weather underground self criticism sessions


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 20, 2013)

joking aside there is a clear tonal link between intersectionlistas and 60s US Maoists.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> joking aside there is a clear tonal link between intersectionlistas and 60s US Maoists.




yep, I've been reading about the weather underground and the loonier fringe of the SDS and the parallels are clear


----------



## TopCat (Oct 20, 2013)

I must be getting old, I don't know what the fuck you are all on about.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> joking aside there is a clear tonal link between intersectionlistas and 60s US Maoists.



There's a straightforward theoretical link too in privilege theory, which originated around the heterodox fringes of US Maoism and was adopted by its main "orthodox" pro-Chinese faction.

The CPGB/Weekly Worker has been pushing the notion that "safer spaces" have their origins in Maoism too, but they haven't documented what they allege to be the historical development of the idea. They've just been arguing by drawing parallels. So I'm sceptical about this one.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 20, 2013)

tufty79 said:


> same with the bookfair - the several pies with his fingers in had stalls yesterday. Someone did suggest that part of the reason i didn't go is because i'm an undercover and 'have 'Clearly pissed off and been ostricised' (rightfully) by the Activist Community' for speaking out about my rape. but they are the ones Doing It Right. cheers for that, editor of freedom newspaper!
> 
> been a bit of a trigger weekend - apologies for the rant. i think i needed it.



Jesus, sorry to hear this and hope you are alright.


----------



## frogwoman (Oct 20, 2013)

i didn't run into anyone except steph and my flatmate, i wasn't there for very long tho tbf. some of the talks looked interesting but i wasnt sure i could sitthrough the whole thing so just went to wetherspoons

i bought a paper off the SPGB though, i told them that i'd met some of their the comrades at an ICCC meeting and then they said "oh were you the one who did the blog about the icc meeting"  i was


----------



## Wilf (Oct 20, 2013)

Balbi said:


> I'm hearing they put the radical feminism stall next to the sex worker stall. That was clever.


 Alphabetic stall arrangement as provocation. 



> And Assange supporters, recording film of people arguing with them about the rape allegations


 Don't that other Cult, the Scientologists, do the same?


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 20, 2013)

Well I've been hearing from several folks that a few meetings were disrupted by these anon-assange-manning-occupy twats.

From just sticking theirs hands up and asking disruptive dickish questions to pointing at and abusing a trans woman "look it's a bloke in a dress".

They should have been  told to fuck off and if they refused thrown out.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Well I've been hearing from several folks that a few meetings were disrupted by these anon-assange-manning-occupy twats.
> 
> From just sticking theirs hands up and asking disruptive dickish questions to pointing at and abusing a trans woman "look it's a bloke in a dress".
> 
> They should have been  told to fuck off and if they refused thrown out.


Well, here's a thread to collect real examples of stuff seen:


----------



## Belushi (Oct 20, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Well I've been hearing from several folks that a few meetings were disrupted by these anon-assange-manning-occupy twats.
> 
> From just sticking theirs hands up and asking disruptive dickish questions to pointing at and abusing a trans woman "look it's a bloke in a dress".
> 
> They should have been  told to fuck off and if they refused thrown out.


 
They deserve a kicking for the abuse of the trans woman.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 20, 2013)

Belushi said:


> They deserve a kicking for the abuse of the trans woman.



They were also going around apparently taking pictures of people they were abusing.

Some pictures of the abusers would be handy.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I fucked off to Portugal for five days and made the best of the Eurozone crisis


a cheap holiday in other people's misery


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

gawkrodger said:


> a summary (or recording) of the Harvey discussion would be good


I went to that talk on "Don't read Marx with Harvey". The organisers handed out a sheet containing the following statement made by Harvey at a meeting in New York last 14 November in which he talked of an alternative money:



> Representation of value in the money form is a perversion of what value is about, it's a contradiction.[...] What this would suggest is that if you want to prevent class formation, if you want to prevent the individual appropriation of social value, then you would have to come up with a money form that is anti accumulation. Marx says that gold and silver are the money commodities because they are not oxidisable. [...] They maintain their character. You can accumulate value, social power. And we see what happens in societies... But if you had a money form that dissolved, that is oxidisable, we would end up with a very different kind of society. You would have a money form would aid circulation but that would not facilitate accumulation.



The speaker's case was that this showed that Harvey had not understood that in the opening chapters of _Capital_ Marx was criticising the whole concept of exchange, of producers working separately and then exchanging their products to get what they needed to live, and that this had led him to think that Marx was objecting only to money that could be accumulated but not to one that couldn't be.

It was presented as Harvey misunderstanding the difference between "socially necessary labour" and "abstract labour". This may be the case but the point would have been clearer if the speaker had simply said that, as Harvey was speaking of a new form of money that could not be accumulated, he had completely misunderstood Marx who clearly held that the end of capitalism meant the end of exchange, money and valueat


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 21, 2013)

I had a great time... didn't get to any talks but did catch up with a couple of good friends, got loads of stickers and literature. We were amused to watch the dreadlocked bloke who liked the sound of his own voice be shouted down by a small claque of women chanting "rape apologist"...they deserved each other.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2013)

Sam Ambreen's account of the day:
http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/there-is-no-anarchism-without-feminism/


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Sam Ambreen's account of the day:
> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/there-is-no-anarchism-without-feminism/





> Here’s the thing: we don’t give a shit about the average man. We’re not teachers, we’re not leaders, we’re not going to break it down for you in a language you understand.



Well, quite


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Sam Ambreen's account of the day:
> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/there-is-no-anarchism-without-feminism/


Cheers, will have a read in a sec.

I do find (refering to the above) meetings that are about an individuals completely "misunderstood Marx" make me cry.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Wow, anachy as therapy:



> Here’s the thing: we don’t give a shit about the average man. We’re not teachers, we’re not leaders, we’re not going to break it down for you in a language you understand. We are expressing ourselves, nothing more, nothing less. We say these extreme things because, powerless as we are, sometimes it is the only thing in our arsenal. Words are powerful, yes, and for those fleeting few seconds, we are in control and you can’t hurt us



There are no winners here - a dick being a dick and someone saying that anarchism is rhetorical therapy.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I do find (refering to the above) meetings that are about an individuals completely "misunderstood Marx" make me cry.


 
Oh I agree, but I quite like the group who put it on and figured it would be a good way to rekindle my reading of Capital.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2013)

I like the Scum Manifesto as much as the next man, but chanting "Kill All Men" and simultaneously demanding that the Anarchist Bookfair be a "safe space" is not fucking on.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Joke people. Pretty angry now.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

That person is and idiot, if they were in my membership group i would be moving they were expelled right now. Maybe a little buit of rhetorical racism next time, or _chavs out?_ Just to make the point yeah?


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 21, 2013)

What is it with them and chanting anyway? I was reminded of Animal Farm and the sheep chanting "four legs good..." to close down debate.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That person is and idiot, if they were in my membership group i would be moving they were expelled right now. Maybe a little buit of rhetorical racism next time, or _chavs out?_ Just to make the point yeah?


Only patriarchists are in _member_ship groups. 

We're talking 'bout a "_*close knit activist group*_".


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Only patriarchists are in _member_ship groups.
> 
> We're talking 'bout a "_*close knit activist group*_".


All the better to drop the ties that bind when that internship comes up.


----------



## chilango (Oct 21, 2013)

This is why we can't have nice things


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That person is and idiot


I'm getting lost. Which person?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I like the Scum Manifesto as much as the next man, but chanting "Kill All Men" and simultaneously demanding that the Anarchist Bookfair be a "safe space" is not fucking on.


Oh dear. I am glad I stayed at home and did the laundry.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

This person who demands that 'we all exist together' whilst chanting 'kill all men' (thereby showing that both are mere rhetoric)


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2013)

there's no easy way of saying this but all sides of that confrontation appear to be as mad as each other


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

love detective said:


> all sides of that confrontation appear to be as mad as each other



BRUNOIST


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This person who demands that 'we all exist together' whilst chanting 'kill all men' (thereby showing that both are mere rhetoric)


Oh, I see. Her.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> BRUNOIST


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


>



Does he do winebar counters too?


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2013)

totally bonkers bruno indeed




			
				sam ambreem said:
			
		

> He randomly accused two of our group of killing 11 people in Northern Ireland



this is bonkers as well, but if they're going around shouting kill all men.....


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 21, 2013)

Who was chanting "Kill all men"?


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2013)

Sam Ambreem (never heard of her before now)



> The crowd around us got bigger, comrades very much on our side and the others, men who seemed utterly heartbroken (pissed off) that we were chanting “kill all men”. One well-meaning chap explained how his mum was a feminist and how he had support for women but he felt alienated by phrases such as the one we were using. Assuming he was an anarchist, I asked him if he’d ever said ‘ACAB’ or ‘eat the rich’ and then whether he said these in the absolute belief that there wasn’t a single good cop in the world or that he might actually munch on the upper classes because if he was saying it, then he obviously he meant it. There was a slight pause before he understood what I was saying but he persisted in advising that we were pushing the average man away.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

love detective said:


> (never heard of her before now)



You disgust me


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

I am now laughing:



> What can be done about Anarchism? This was my first experience of anarchists outside of my close knit activist group. I am hoping we are the majority and we can eliminate the patriarchal fucks intent on maintaining power and control structures otherwise I am seriously going to have to rethink my identity.



Talk about undermining all that bollocks about identity - the historical side of it which is very powerful-  - and turning it intoconsumer choice, and once you make your choice you have statutory rights. _These people._


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 21, 2013)

"Kill All Men" seems to be an intersectional hashtag trend thing like "fuck cis people" was a while back.

ETA: Oh actually, here goes: http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/kill-all-men/

"On the other hand, it’s pretty difficult to mention SCUM (or indeed just cry “kill all men”) without the misogynists crawling in, crying misandry."


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

It's like Polly toynbee asking _what are we anarchists to do_ after having tea at the ritz with laurie. I'll tell you, go away. have a re-think. Understand what you so lightly profess as identity.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2013)

Were there any actual fights this year? You know, with people actually hitting each other?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "Kill All Men" seems to be an intersectional hashtag trend thing like "fuck cis people" was a while back.
> 
> ETA: Oh actually, here goes: http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/kill-all-men/
> 
> "On the other hand, it’s pretty difficult to mention SCUM (or indeed just cry “kill all men”) without the misogynists crawling in, crying misandry."


why stop at men?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Were there any actual fights this year? You know, with people actually hitting each other?


you know it's years since there was a *fight*, it's almost always handbags


----------



## chilango (Oct 21, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> "Kill All Men" seems to be an intersectional hashtag trend thing like "fuck cis people" was a while back.
> 
> ETA: Oh actually, here goes: http://stavvers.wordpress.com/2013/05/07/kill-all-men/
> 
> "On the other hand, it’s pretty difficult to mention SCUM (or indeed just cry “kill all men”) without the misogynists crawling in, crying misandry."


Don't do it then posho.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

TopCat said:


> Were there any actual fights this year? You know, with people actually hitting each other?


Yes, the Irish-Australian bloke was pushed around by some men half his age. Ageism?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> a cheap holiday in other people's misery



I like to think that I brought them a bit of comradely cheer in these difficult times. Shall I ask them to keep the bunting up for when you arrive?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I like to think that I brought them a bit of comradely cheer in these difficult times. Shall I ask them to keep the bunting up for when you arrive?


tell them to keep it up for when i leave


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Jean-Luc said:


> Yes, the Irish-Australian bloke was pushed around by some men half his age. Ageism?


What they should have got people his age to do it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> What they should have got people his age to do it?


run him out of town tarred and feathered on a telegraph pole


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2013)

love detective said:


> Sam Ambreem (never heard of her before now)



In the 70s I went to a play about rape which had the unifying rallying cry of 'all men are rapists'. I made my excuses and left.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

The39thStep said:


> I made my excuses and left.


----------



## treelover (Oct 21, 2013)

> The crowd around us got bigger, comrades very much on our side and the others, men who seemed utterly heartbroken (pissed off) that we were chanting “kill all men”.


 
mid 80's redux, thank god I missed that bit and am not involved in anything now, pity the young comrades having to cope with this rubbish

btw, wonder what the women who chanted the same in the 80's are doing now?


----------



## treelover (Oct 21, 2013)

> What can be done about Anarchism? This was my first experience of anarchists outside of my close knit activist group.


 
Bizarre, how long has she been around?, if its not long, some humility is in order.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> mid 80's redux, thank god I missed that bit and am not involved in now, pity the young comrades having to cope with this rubbish
> 
> btw, wonder what the women who chanted the same in the 80's are doing now?


something more sensible i hope


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

After talking to those of my lot who are now back the general sense was: great meetings/shit people. It's usually shit meetings/great people.


----------



## treelover (Oct 21, 2013)

what about the benefit workshops, well attended, etc?


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 21, 2013)

It certainly had a very studenty vibe and was quite different to the last one I went to at Conway Hall. The Culture Shock gig was good though.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

One for all you budding new statesman interns reading this - never, and i mean never, start an article (or anything) with:



> Strolling out of the bookfair yesterday in search of a Veggies burger


----------



## smokedout (Oct 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> what about the benefit workshops, well attended, etc?



not packed, but pretty decent attendance and some new faces.  not much can be achieved really in an hour, but good to meet some folk from other places and some good new ideas emerging.  none of the shit that people are discussing on twitter, didnt see any of that but then I only went to the two welfare workshops and then was in the pub


----------



## Wilf (Oct 21, 2013)

For anybody like me who couldn't make the London Bookfair, I've just seen the Manchester and Salford one is 23rd November:
http://bookfair.org.uk/


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> i didn't run into anyone except steph and my flatmate, i wasn't there for very long tho tbf. some of the talks looked interesting but i wasnt sure i could sitthrough the whole thing so just went to wetherspoons
> 
> i bought a paper off the SPGB though, i told them that i'd met some of their the comrades at an ICCC meeting and then they said *"oh were you the one who did the blog about the icc meeting"*  i was



ah, the wonders of google alert.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> Bizarre, how long has she been around?, if its not long, some humility is in order.


"This was my first experience of anarchists" ie a few hours.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 21, 2013)

Any more links the mighty blogosphere where the various antics of sat get discussed?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 21, 2013)

> “Your culture,” he spat, “has invaded my culture for the last 800 years!” I must admit, I was a little confused by this. I might be British by birth but it certainly wasn’t my choice



In the same piece where she explains that there is no problem with chanting "Kill All Men".

I've been reading radical feminists rants about Trans this morning and whilst they are absolute tosh, they do at least have the benefit of logical consistency.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

revol68 said:


> “Your culture,” he spat, “has invaded my culture for the last 800 years!” I must admit, I was a little confused by this. I might be British by birth but it certainly wasn’t my choice


I think that your problem is that you're trying to use cones to do the job of rods.


----------



## Geri (Oct 21, 2013)

treelover said:


> btw, wonder what the women who chanted the same in the 80's are doing now?



Driving around Stab Towers in a mobility scooter.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

> “Your culture,” he spat, “has invaded my culture for the last 800 years!”


That was the Irish Republican (or even simple Irish Nationalist) in him. Same old divisive shit as her.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 21, 2013)

Is this the self publicist?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaron_O'Reilly


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

That is the O' reilly yes.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 21, 2013)

love detective said:


> Sam Ambreem (never heard of her before now)



Prominent twitter intersectionalist, previously notable for a particularly extended feud with Helen Lewis.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 21, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Sam Ambreen's account of the day:
> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/20/there-is-no-anarchism-without-feminism/



Music of the future.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Prominent twitter intersectionalist, previously notable for a particularly extended feud with Helen Lewis.


She's seems a very bitter person from reading her various stuff today - do these people just turn on each anther one after another about perceived little personal slights rather than anything political?


----------



## Geri (Oct 21, 2013)

That blog has to be a spoof. 

Either that or it's ghost written by a 15 year old.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> She's seems a very bitter person from reading her various stuff today - do these people just turn on each anther one after another about perceived little personal slights rather than anything political?


 
It really does seem like this from the outside. It's a wonder anyone new ever goes to these things.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> It really does seem like this from the outside. It's a wonder anyone new ever goes to these things.


She is new, tbf.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> She is new, tbf.


 
Turning on another new person?


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Turning on another new person?


Not liking "kill all men" doesn't disappear cos she's new


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

This is what annoys me - there is political stuff going on. Say the anti-blacklisting campaign - currently a few autonomous groups are forming as they're fed up of official inaction. That's something to be talked about and debated - something political . But this doesn't happen with these people because it's all about the individual. You'll not hear a word about stuff like that from them.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Not liking "kill all men" doesn't disappear cos she's new


 
I'm not 100% I'm sure what you mean. I was just agreeing with butchersapron. I'd like to go to this one year. I'd like to go to a lot of other meetings and groups that I see advertised. But without fail the ones I have been to, have been cliquey and in-fighty, and not at all welcoming. I've not got enough time or money to keep going to everything until I find one that isn't, and I've not got enough energy to go anyway and ignore or particularly engage with the nut-buckets.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I'm not 100% I'm sure what you mean. I was just agreeing with butchersapron. I'd like to go to this one year. I'd like to go to a lot of other meetings and groups that I see advertised. But without fail the ones I have been to, have been cliquey and in-fighty, and not at all welcoming. I've not got enough time or money to keep going to everything until I find one that isn't, and I've not got enough energy to go anyway and ignore or particularly engage with the nut-buckets.


Don't think either of the meetings I attended were cliquey or infighty. One was a bit pointless, and the other could've done with more discussion and less lecture, but didn't feel like either were unwelcoming.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I'm not 100% I'm sure what you mean. I was just agreeing with butchersapron. I'd like to go to this one year. I'd like to go to a lot of other meetings and groups that I see advertised. But without fail the ones I have been to, have been cliquey and in-fighty, and not at all welcoming. I've not got enough time or money to keep going to everything until I find one that isn't, and I've not got enough energy to go anyway and ignore or particularly engage with the nut-buckets.


Oh, sorry. I misunderstood what you meant. I thought you thought people were being unreasonably mean to a newcomer.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Don't think either of the meetings I attended were cliquey or infighty. One was a bit pointless, and the other could've done with more discussion and less lecture, but didn't feel like either were unwelcoming.


Which ones?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


>



CxF - the In Occupied Europe years


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Which ones?


The education one - which needed to be way less focused on "radical pedagogy" and more focused on organising and confronting the government, and the SolFed anarcho-syndicalism one, which was a lot of information, but could've done more with people talking about current campaigns and day-to-day activity (cause the contribution from members dotted around the room on that were great).


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> The education one - which needed to be way less focused on "radical pedagogy" and more focused on organising and confronting the government, and the SolFed anarcho-syndicalism one, which was a lot of information, but could've done more with people talking about current campaigns and day-to-day activity (cause the contribution from members dotted around the room on that were great).


Cheers.


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> The education one - which needed to be way less focused on "radical pedagogy" and more focused on organising and confronting the government, and the SolFed anarcho-syndicalism one, which was a lot of information, but could've done more with people talking about current campaigns and day-to-day activity (cause the contribution from members dotted around the room on that were great).


Was the second one the What is anarcho syndicalism one, or the Workplace  Organisation one?


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Is this the self publicist?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaron_O'Reilly


I didn't know all that and to be honest that's quite a good anti-war record despite his catholicism and Irish nationalism. Maybe next year his feminist opponents will give him a white feather.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> Was the second one the What is anarcho syndicalism one, or the Workplace  Organisation one?



What is a-syn. Tbf, maybe it was all covered in the second one, but I figured that the "what is a-syn" one was more or less a pitch for people to join SolFed and bigging up what you do as an organisation is the best advert for that ...


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> What is a-syn. Tbf, maybe it was all covered in the second one, but I figured that the "what is a-syn" one was more or less a pitch for people to join SolFed and bigging up what you do as an organisation is the best advert for that ...


So did they stick to describing anarcho syndicalism generally rather than being about the solfed then?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

cesare said:


> So did they stick to describing anarcho syndicalism generally rather than being about the solfed then?


The first half and a bit was, yeah, some stuff about the principles of revolutionary unionism, history of a-syn etc., and the shorter discussion part focused a bit more on what they get up to (aside from a Trot derailing it with their standard "excellent record of class struggle, but failure to lead the class in '36" schtick). It was a good meeting in general, I think I'd have just tipped the balance slightly in the other direction though.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Don't think either of the meetings I attended were cliquey or infighty. One was a bit pointless, and the other could've done with more discussion and less lecture, but didn't feel like either were unwelcoming.


 
Good. 

Like I said, I've never been to the bookfair but I'd like to go, one year.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Good.
> 
> Like I said, I've never been to the bookfair but I'd like to go, one year.



If only there was some kindly old person who made dreams come true to whom you could write


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> If only there was some kindly old person who made dreams come true to whom you could write


 
 Fuck off!


----------



## cesare (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> The first half and a bit was, yeah, some stuff about the principles of revolutionary unionism, history of a-syn etc., and the shorter discussion part focused a bit more on what they get up to (aside from a Trot derailing it with their standard "excellent record of class struggle, but failure to lead the class in '36" schtick). It was a good meeting in general, I think I'd have just tipped the balance slightly in the other direction though.


Yes, the other double slot meeting was a bit like a taster for the one-day course they run in the practicalities of workplace organisation (from what I understand).


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Fuck off!


Now then, now then


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

.


----------



## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Now then, now then


 
I'll send you a PM, then?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> She's seems a very bitter person from reading her various stuff today - do these people just turn on each anther one after another about perceived little personal slights rather than anything political?



It's a mistake to try to separate the two with this bunch. For them political action is in large part about "calling out" people for being "shitty people". It's one reason why the gang war between mainstream media liberal feminists and the more radical liberal intersectionalistas on twitter is such compulsive viewing - both sides are vigorously concerned with policing who is in and who is out of their respective circles.

The Lewis v. Ambreen feud is emblematic of the whole thing. Ambreen botched a "call out". She later apologised, but Lewis scented blood and made an example of her. You can work out much of any given uk twitter feminist's politics by seeing what side they took.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

It's like a right-on Heathers.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Good.
> 
> Like I said, I've never been to the bookfair but I'd like to go, one year.


dont be put off by this stuff onket, ive always found it friendly and the meetings welcoming and interesting on the whole - i didnt spot any drama the whole day, but its a big event so something is bound to happen somewhere. Its all a lot more civilised than you might be imagining


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> It really does seem like this from the outside. It's a wonder anyone new ever goes to these things.


people only go to poke fun at the loons. that's it, really. the stalls do no trade and the meetings are empty as everyone's outside shouting things at the truthers.


----------



## weepiper (Oct 21, 2013)

> @SamAmbreen





> Check out the menz waaah-ing on this thread http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/anarchist-bookfair-2013-october-19th.315271/page-10…



https://twitter.com/SamAmbreen/status/392287956611772416


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> https://twitter.com/SamAmbreen/status/392287956611772416


Bizarre. Still, good to see that a squirt of WD40 has sorted out the Vanity Google button


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Is this the self publicist?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciaron_O'Reilly


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> people only go to poke fun at the loons. that's it, really. the stalls do no trade and the meetings are empty as everyone's outside shouting things at the truthers.


I'm in it mostly for the stickers really.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> https://twitter.com/SamAmbreen/status/392287956611772416





> I am a woman who oozes hefty privileges. I am white, cis, able bodied, and functionally middle class and I have an education



She's better than us.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> I'm in it mostly for the stickers really.


yeh no one wants the dull old books


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> She's better than us.


what's cis? classically insipid student?


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh no one wants the dull old books


I got a t-shirt too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> I got a t-shirt too.


but not, i note, a book


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 21, 2013)

Refused stole the book I was gonna buy


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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Refused stole the book I was gonna buy


that'll learn you to fiddle about with your change at the crucial moment.


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## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

I want to go for the fair.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I want to go for the fair.


But life ISN'T fair.


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Refused stole the book I was gonna buy


In past years i put a book down that i was reading on our table and it was sold. Something similar happened at the stall at the panthers events here last week.


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## Onket (Oct 21, 2013)

Fuck it then, not going.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> Fuck it then, not going.


Next year you do the washing and TopCat can iron.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

Onket said:


> I want to go for the fair.


you'll enjoy the dodgems.


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## DrRingDing (Oct 21, 2013)

> *SAmityville Ambrains* ‏@SamAmbreen1h
> heh. blac bloc's defending ciaron o reilly. all you need to know.



Is "black bloc" someone who posts on twitter or is she claiming to have received the secret communique?


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## butchersapron (Oct 21, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Is "black bloc" someone who posts on twitter or is she claiming to have received the secret communique?


This is "black bloc" 

A London-based 'anarchist' going by the name of Seamus Colligan (aka O’Colgan) has started a campaign to 'out' anarchists and feminists.

Using his twitter accounts @blacbloc and @JamesLa30236317 he has been posting personal details of people who have stood up against sexual violence and abusive behaviour, in particular those who have been vocally anti-Assange, those who signed the AWOL statement about Paul Cunliffe and those who challenged Seamus about his own alleged sexually violent behaviour. In addition to copying the Met Police into these tweets, he has been contacting people's employers, local fascists and local police forces naming people as anarchists and providing home addresses. This man is a tout and cannot be trusted.

Be careful what you post about yourself and others.
Do not use other people's names or say anything that may identify them.
Do not pass on details of comrades to third parties.
Review your online security - keep personal details separate from public social media accounts.

the circle is squared (_by the menz_ or something - appropriation of minority culture language, little bit racist)


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## weepiper (Oct 21, 2013)

This whole 'menz waaah' thing is utterly tiresome even to a fairly rabid feminist such as myself.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 21, 2013)

In its own way the argument with the unidentified sympathetic but not quite with the program dude in Ambreen's account is quite interesting.

The whole issue is posed as one of his feelings ("pissed off", "heartbroken", "alienated") versus the self-actualisation of the chanters, and their ability to feel powerful, "in control" and beyond being hurt for a few moments. In such a balance the feelings of the oppressed are more important, and he should just suck it up. Now that's actually reasonable enough in some ways - if you take it as a given that progressive politics really do come down to expressing your justified individual ire, exposing "shitty people" and so on.

But even in her account, his feelings aren't all there are to his objection. There is also a tactical element: deliberately over the top, meant-to-shock, slogans are from his point of view likely to annoy rather than convince those who aren't already convinced. Now there are arguments to be had about whether this kind of slogan is always and everywhere counterproductive. It isn't always necessary to moderate language. Being provocative isn't always mistaken. But Ambreen isn't interested in engaging on that ground at all. Instead, having any form of tactical concern for things like winning over the not already convinced is dismissed out of hand -

"Here’s the thing: we don’t give a shit about the average man. We’re not teachers, we’re not leaders, we’re not going to break it down for you in a language you understand. We are expressing ourselves, nothing more, nothing less. We say these extreme things because, powerless as we are, sometimes it is the only thing in our arsenal. Words are powerful, yes, and for those fleeting few seconds, we are in control and you can’t hurt us."

This is a manifesto for politics as a personally satisfying howl into a void. A shout of rage as the method and more shouts of rage as the end goal. It's actually much more interesting in what it says about the politics at work here than the "kill all men" chant itself, which is too obviously silly to get worked up about.

That said, I'll take this lot over Guy Fawksist types throwing around slurs against transgendered people any day.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> This whole 'menz waaah' thing is utterly tiresome even to a *fairly rabid feminist such as myself*.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2013)

Aaaaaahhhh.......


----------



## Wilf (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> This is "black bloc"
> 
> A London-based 'anarchist' going by the name of Seamus Colligan (aka O’Colgan) has started a campaign to 'out' anarchists and feminists.
> 
> ...


Your link doesn't seem to work, but this one leads you to what I presume is the same photo.
http://www.soundthealarm.org.uk/seamus-colligan/
I don't know the case but the guy sounds _very_ bad news.

Hope this doesn't make the mods too twitchy, but I think Butchers is right to post these details up.


----------



## Sue (Oct 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> https://twitter.com/SamAmbreen/status/392287956611772416


Oh God, it's going to go all lauriepenny now... Can anyone be arsed..?


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 21, 2013)

Sue said:


> Oh God, it's going to go all lauriepenny now... Can anyone be arsed..?



Don't say that, you'll be accused of demanding all women have to enjoy anal sex.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 21, 2013)

Looking forward to LP writing her way into this in the New Statesman on Friday. 

_Also;_


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## ska invita (Oct 21, 2013)

weepiper said:


> Check out the menz waaah-ing on this thread
> https://twitter.com/SamAmbreen/status/392287956611772416


bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?


Pickman's model said:


> yeh no one wants the dull old books


even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going, according to twitter she "didn't even get to see any literature")

i like how she illustrated her post about the bookfair with this:




and then went on to justify her Kill All Men thing as being forced to ignore reasonable debate, backed with "we don’t give a shit about the average man". i recommend a bit more of the sticking together.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

ska invita said:


> bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?
> 
> even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going)
> 
> ...


----------



## seventh bullet (Oct 21, 2013)

Who says 'menz' in real life?  I suppose being normalz is pretty cool in that sense.


----------



## Belushi (Oct 21, 2013)

I was just watching the news about that old Asian gent murdered by the Ukrainian fascist in the midlands. Sam must have been delighted.


----------



## love detective (Oct 21, 2013)

small whiskies all round


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 21, 2013)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> Well, here's a thread to collect real examples of stuff seen:



Exactly. And even with photo and video evidence, it's not like everyone is who they claim to be.


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## lazyhack (Oct 21, 2013)

_Trigger warning_


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 21, 2013)

Belushi said:


> I was just watching the news about that old Asian gent murdered by the Ukrainian fascist in the midlands. Sam must have been delighted.



That's a bit of a cheap shot.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 21, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> That's a bit of a cheap shot.


Belushi's not going to break it down for you in a language you understand. He's expressing himself, nothing more, nothing less.


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## fogbat (Oct 21, 2013)

ska invita said:


> bit sexist to presume its menz iznt it?
> 
> even Sam only went there for the badges it sounds like (she did get two, so thats not bad going, according to twitter she "didn't even get to see any literature")
> 
> ...



Is that a robot fist in the bottom right? Cyborg solidarity?


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## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2013)

fogbat said:


> Is that a robot fist in the bottom right? Cyborg solidarity?


i think the whole is supposed to be some sort of throwing star


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## fogbat (Oct 21, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i think the whole is supposed to be some sort of throwing star



I think you need to check your organic privilege.


----------



## caroline1973 (Oct 22, 2013)

I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'


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## revol68 (Oct 22, 2013)

caroline1973 said:


> I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'



Standard ultra left position, bit crass but there is a point there.


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## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

caroline1973 said:


> I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'



Be a big shame if he got ill then.


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## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Standard ultra left position, bit crass but there is a point there.



Are the CNT ultra left enough for you?


> This is only a very brief look at the collectivisation that happened. In keeping with anarchist beliefs the revolution did not stop there. For the first time in Spain many workers had the benefit of a health service - organised by the CNT Federation of Health Workers. The Federation consisted of 40,000 health workers - nurses, doctors, administrators and orderlies. Once again the major success was in Catalonia where it ensured that all of the 2.5 million inhabitants had adequate health care.
> 
> Not only were traditional services provided but victims of the Civil War were also treated. A programme of preventive medicine was also established based on local community health centres. At their 1937 Congress these workers developed a health plan for a future anarchist Spain which could have been implemented if the revolution had been successful.



From this website http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm


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## revol68 (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Are the CNT ultra left enough for you?
> 
> 
> From this website http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm



What relation does that bear to the NHS, now or indeed ever?


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## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

revol68 said:


> What relation does that bear to the NHS, now or indeed ever?



Just the idea of free health care not just being a democratic socialist idea, but an idea thought of by anarchists before that.

But apologies if I've misunderstood your point about the NHS being oppressive in some way or form. (Its late and I'm a bit tired)


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## barney_pig (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Just the idea of free health care not just being a democratic socialist idea, but an idea thought of by anarchists before that.
> 
> But apologies if I've misunderstood your point about the NHS being oppressive in some way or form. (Its late and I'm a bit tired)


The nhs is state managed rationing of health care, the cnt example was mutual aid.
What's wrong with ultra left?


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## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> The nhs is state managed rationing of health care, the cnt example was mutual aid.
> What's wrong with ultra left?



Nothing is wrong with the ultra left. I was just saying the provision of free health care shouldn't be dismissed as just a democratic socialist idea to answer this point from caroline1973 
↑"I wasn't too impressed with the guy who told me that by 'defending the nhs is defending your own oppression'"

And this point by revol68
"Standard ultra left position, bit crass but there is a point there"


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## barney_pig (Oct 22, 2013)

Neither myself, revol68, nor afaict the chap at book fair has any problem with free health care. Why would you feel such provision can only be provided by the state?
If you were replying to caroline1973, then quoting her rather than revol68 would have been clearer.


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## Delroy Booth (Oct 22, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Neither myself, revol68, nor afaict the chap at book fair has any problem with free health care. Why would you feel such provision can only be provided by the state?
> If you were replying to caroline1973, then quoting her rather than revol68 would have been clearer.



To play devils advocate* because providing world class universal free at the point of use healthcare for a nation of 60 million people is a gargantuan undertaking, that requires masses of material resources to be utilised and directed. It requires a huge amount of money, that needs to be reliable for years upon years in advance, not to mention the massive costs involved in researching and producing the drugs and other medical technologies, years upon years of training for doctors and nurses, the infastructure and follow up care and all the rest of it. This requires a lot of planning, which of course could be done democratically, but not without some degree of centralisation. Perhaps nationalisation is more suited to that kind of undertaking than people realise, as the state is in a much better position to provide those necessities than voluntary organisations of working class people? And wouldn't any democratic planning organisation that took on this role in an anarchist society end up becoming a de facto state or authority of some kind?

And as much as I admire what took place in revolutionary Spain, can it be compared in both scale and sophistication to the modern NHS? Has any anarchist society been able to come close to this? Furthermore would an anarchist reject the NHS in favour of a non-state organised system, even if that system was unable to provide the same high level of care we so often take for granted?

There's also another point which is the NHS was seen by Bevan and much of the democratic socialists who helped create it as an extension of the principles of mutual aid and collective provision into the post-war era. For them it was the logical conclusion to a centuries worth of experimentation and DIY mutualism in providing welfare system that has its roots in funeral societies and co-ops and so on. Which is why the insurance principle was rejected outright, and why it is based on medical need and not ability to pay, and even to this day in an otherwise neo-liberal society healthcare is not seen by British people as a commodity as it is in other societies that had state-backed private insurance healthcare systems.

*so don't necessarily take all this as if it's what I feel is best or ideal, just want to see what people think of this.

As for the Anarchist bookfair rows, it seems like the stuff which was restricted to the internet making its presence felt. They're not going away infact the rhetoric is basically all out war against any anarchist who doesn't conform to their notions of fighting the Kyriarchy. It's quite explicit _you're either with us or against us_ stuff I don't think it's possible for these to co-exist without it becoming an utter and total farce.

I know people will say "it's just a small minority of idiots" and perhaps that's true but I don't share that optimism. I already think for a lot of young people with a vague interest in radical politics Anarchism means something very different to what it's historically meant.

Then you've got the anonymous/wikileaks people, who are fucking awful too infact given the choice i'd much rather have the worst intersectionalista brat than some of these Assange groupies. They really are stuck between the devil and the deep blue sea.

Would I be a pessimist or a realist if I said it looks more and more like this movement is a total dead end in terms of instigating substantive political change? And I really take no pleasure in it whatsoever before anyone suggests otherwise.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Neither myself, revol68, nor afaict the chap at book fair has any problem with free health care. Why would you feel such provision can only be provided by the state?
> If you were replying to caroline1973, then quoting her rather than revol68 would have been clearer.



If you look at my post 409, you'll see I was giving an example of free health care being provided by the CNT, who could be classed as ultra left. So I obviously havent said health care can only be provided by the state. Which bit of that cant you understand?


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> If you look at my post 409, you'll see I was giving an example of free health care being provided by the CNT, who could be classed as ultra left. So I obviously havent said health care can only be provided by the state. Which bit of that cant you understand?


I think the problem here is that you, and possibly caroline1973, seem to have misunderstood the point that the guy at the Bookfair made to caroline. The main reason for that is that the guy at the Bookfair made the point in a way that might have been immediately clear to an anarchist but not so immediately clear to anyone that thinks of the NHS as a national treasure to be preserved at all costs, without necessarily thinking of it as a mainly State-led provision as it stands at the moment. That's an issue with the way the guy made the point - if he'd said it that way to me I'd probably have reacted in a similar way (or started laughing because of the Python-esque way it was delivered).


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth Were you at the Bookfair?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> Delroy Booth Were you at the Bookfair?



No I'm just going on what i've read on here and a few other blogs. 

I've been to a few up north but never in London.


----------



## chilango (Oct 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> As for the Anarchist bookfair rows, it seems like the stuff which was restricted to the internet making its presence felt. They're not going away infact the rhetoric is basically all out war against any anarchist who doesn't conform to their notions of fighting the Kyriarchy. It's quite explicit _you're either with us or against us_ stuff I don't think it's possible for these to co-exist without it becoming an utter and total farce.
> 
> I know people will say "it's just a small minority of idiots" and perhaps that's true but I don't share that optimism. I already think for a lot of young people with a vague interest in radical politics Anarchism means something very different to what it's historically meant.
> 
> ...



It doesn't really matter.

Yes, it may be that the "anarchist scene" is infected with this shite for a generation, perhaps even to the point of paralysing the orgs. But it's survived worse. Hippies in the 60s, pacifists in the 70s, "Punx" in the 80s. Another generation will come along and discover the ideas hidden in the dusty old pamphlets hawked by the old guys with beards at demos. C'est la vie.

Away from the scene, and away from the bubble of twitter activism, nobody gives a shit about any of this, for good or bad, and are getting on with their lives. This is where the battle is.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> I think the problem here is that you, and possibly caroline1973, seem to have misunderstood the point that the guy at the Bookfair made to caroline. The main reason for that is that the guy at the Bookfair made the point in a way that might have been immediately clear to an anarchist but not so immediately clear to anyone that thinks of the NHS as a national treasure to be preserved at all costs, without necessarily thinking of it as a mainly State-led provision as it stands at the moment. That's an issue with the way the guy made the point - if he'd said it that way to me I'd probably have reacted in a similar way (or started laughing because of the Python-esque way it was delivered).



Do you mean the guy in question at the bookfair was a lifestyle anarcho primivitist type? I fail to see his beef with the NHS if he wasnt.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 22, 2013)

There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Do you mean the guy in question at the bookfair was a lifestyle anarcho primivitist type? I fail to see his beef with the NHS if he wasnt.


Not necessarily. But from the way that caroline1973 described it (and as revol68 ) noted, it was a crass way to make the point that (a) we don't need a state to provide free health care, and (b)  support of <whatever> state-led provision lends credence and reliance on the State. 

It's the kind of point to be made during a decent conversation, not as a throw-away comment to a stranger.


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> To play devils advocate* because providing world class universal free at the point of use healthcare for a nation of 60 million people is a gargantuan undertaking, that requires masses of material resources to be utilised and directed. It requires a huge amount of money, that needs to be reliable for years upon years in advance, not to mention the massive costs involved in researching and producing the drugs and other medical technologies, years upon years of training for doctors and nurses, the infastructure and follow up care and all the rest of it. This requires a lot of planning, which of course could be done democratically, but not without some degree of centralisation. Perhaps nationalisation is more suited to that kind of undertaking than people realise, as the state is in a much better position to provide those necessities than voluntary organisations of working class people? And wouldn't any democratic planning organisation that took on this role in an anarchist society end up becoming a de facto state or authority of some kind?
> 
> And as much as I admire what took place in revolutionary Spain, can it be compared in both scale and sophistication to the modern NHS? Has any anarchist society been able to come close to this? Furthermore would an anarchist reject the NHS in favour of a non-state organised system, even if that system was unable to provide the same high level of care we so often take for granted?
> 
> ...




Its a very good question whether in an anarchist society a national free health care system would have worked, one we would have only known the answer to if the Spanish civil war/social revolution had had a totally different outcome ie the fascists were defeated by the libertarian communist militias and the Stalinist parties didnt get as powerful as they became. The idea was definitely there, but would it it have worked in practise? No one can be sure of the answer.

eta : It was working for 2.5 million people in the libcom/anarchist held areas in Catalonia as was explained in my earlier post, with the CNT having a 40,000 strong collective of doctors, nurses and other health workers.


----------



## newbie (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> This is a manifesto for politics as a personally satisfying howl into a void. A shout of rage as the method and more shouts of rage as the end goal. It's actually much more interesting in what it says about the politics at work here than the "kill all men" chant itself, which is too obviously silly to get worked up about.
> 
> That said, I'll take this lot over Guy Fawksist types throwing around slurs against transgendered people any day.


so will I.

Their politics may not stand up to scrutiny among those here with well developed, consistent and intellectually rigorous positions but for myself (with none of those) I have a great deal of sympathy for howls of rage, whether into the excitable void of twitter or into the face of a political opponent. I don't suppose I'm the only one on this rather middleaged board who did a fair amount of it once and I'm not going to take much issue with those with the passion now.

Soapboxing there, then on that particular issue was always going to be confrontational. I'm curious about how the various traditions represented here think such an obvious trigger provocation should be dealt with?  If not howl him down then what, ignore him, strongarm him, debate with him, demand something of the organisers?

e2a them not him


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something



I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.


----------



## Jean-Luc (Oct 22, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> There's other arguments that go along the lines of "the NHS is the capitalist states way of subsidising the costs of maintaining and reproducing the labour force by making taxpayers rather than employers pay for the healthcare of the workers" or something


Actually, strictly speaking and from an economic point of view, that's true under capitalism, but not a reason for opposing it, any more than for opposing any reform that benefits people under capitalism even if such reforms are always under pressure of being whittled away. It's actually a reason for getting rid of capitalism altogether so that there can be a fully free and secure health service (and other services)..


----------



## caleb (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.



Jesus Christ mate, many of us rely - or have relied, or will - on the NHS but it's also possible to be critical of it and its function in capitalist society, to appreciate the fact it plays both a positive and negative role for the working class. Why do you think it was introduced, from the goodness of the heart's of the bourgeoisie? this is lowest common denominator shit, do you think we shouldnt say anything bad about it?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.



To be fair that's actually marxist as much as it is anarchist I believe. And maybe in a capitalist society the NHS does perform the role of reproducing the labour force and keeping it healthy. And perhaps it's better for companies and the ruling class that the costs of that are dealt with by the state? Even so I can live with that.

I had an eye infection recently. On my way home from the dole office I went into my GP surgery for an appointment. I walked in and asked for an appointment on thursday afternoon, and they got me one the very next morning. I got my appointment the next day, got a prescription for some eye-drops with antibiotics in them, and because I'm on JSA I didn't have to pay a penny. The whole experience from start to finish took less than 30 minutes and no-one at any point asked me about my financial status until it came to getting the prescription, which was of course free.

I know it sounds cheesy but as I was walking home from the surgery I could've fucking cried. I'd spent the last few days looking at the arguments over Obamacare in the USA and the grief and misery the healthcare costs in the USA cause people, and it's hard to believe that for all we've lost in this country in the last 30 years here in one little village in Yorkshire the system works. 

Thanks Nye Bevan.

I swear to god I'd take up arms to defend the NHS. It's not just cheesy Labourist nostalgia is an incredible achievement.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

The NHS represents the enclosure of collective health provision by capital and the state away from society - the return of that function to society doesn't mean getting rid of the NHS burning down hospitals, it means that it is put on a different footing and set of relationships. Pretty straightforward.


----------



## JimW (Oct 22, 2013)

I came across a good Morris Brinton piece on the NHS from the 70s (after following a link to something else from here I think), where he looks at the bureaucratisation of it: http://radicalhistorynetwork.blogspot.com/2013/10/thoughts-of-maurice-brinton-on-nhs-1978.html


> When Aneurin Bevan spoke of the NHS as inaugurating an era when ‘poverty would not be a disability, and wealth not an advantage’, he was speaking through his hat. He had himself described politics as ‘the language of priorities’. Those of a social structure that had only been tampered with were soon to assert themselves.
> 
> That NHS priorities over the last 10 years have been ‘wrong’ is certain. But the ‘errors’ were no accident. They were an essential feature of how bureaucratic societies function. They show the sort of issues such societies can sweep under the carpet, the sort of pressures they respond to, even the nature of their responses. People like health. They get angry when health facilities are cut back. The bureaucrat reasons that people won’t miss what they haven’t had. The lower limits of expenditure on health are therefore always determined by fears of political backlashes (i.e. lost votes).


----------



## treelover (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Are the CNT ultra left enough for you?
> 
> 
> From this website http://www.english.illinois.edu/maps/scw/anarchist.htm


 
But isn't it the case that without their private training, there wouldn't have been  all these trained doctors, nurses, etc. mutual aid is all very well, but who would train all the medics, etc and what about social care?


----------



## cantsin (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.



seems a pretty obvious and self evident kernel of truth in that - do you think Atlee and co intro'd the NHS cos they were such benevolent reformists, or cos they knew they had to start rebuilding the most crucial part of capitalisms infrastructure sharpish - the workers. ?


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## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> Jesus Christ mate, many of us rely - or have relied, or will - on the NHS but it's also possible to be critical of it and its function in capitalist society, to appreciate the fact it plays both a positive and negative role for the working class. Why do you think it was introduced, from the goodness of the heart's of the bourgeoisie? this is lowest common denominator shit, do you think we shouldnt say anything bad about it?



Nye Bevin bourgeoisie? Seriously? A son of a coal miner and himself an ex coal miner, by definition, cant be bourgeoisie. He even resigned his position of health secretary when the Labour government introduced fees for eye and dental treatment. Dont confuse him with any New or Old Labour types of recent times, he's totally different from them and as for the actual bourgeoisie of the Tory Party he had this to say ......
"No attempt at ethical or social seduction can eradicate from my heart a deep burning hatred for the Tory Party. So far as I am concerned they are lower than vermin"

I have got the upmost respect for the NHS after they saved my life twice, once when I had cancer 3 years ago and the other time this year when I had a serious kidney disease and so the only critical aspect I have of it is the PFI debacle and the gross underfunding and job losses that are happening in it. But those are problems with who's running it not the institution itself.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 22, 2013)

'A son of a coal miner and himself an ex coal miner, by definition, cant be bourgeoisie.'

thats a bold contention


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's like a right-on Heathers.


That makes these daft "fights" sound interesting though.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!


How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!


Class is a social relation etc.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> He went to work in the coal mines at the age of 13, hardly the type of work somebody from the bourgeoisie would be doing at that age!



Note your use of "from the bourgeoisie"...

the NHS wasn't actually produced by one individual and certainly wouldn't have happened if the "bourgeoisie" had saw no interest in it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?


that's not the sort of work someone of 13 should be doing either


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> I hope thats not your argument Delroy, because thats the biggest load of bollocks I've heard in a long time. The NHS should be emulated into a libertarian society, not dismissed by some daft pseudo anarcho nonsense.


we should have a fragmented health system crippled by pfi debt and overburdened with an internal market and bureaucracy?


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2013)

The issue for me is that a) I don't neccessarily think state provsion can be the only provision b) what ever the provsion it should have a huge imput from and accountability to users , their relatives and workers in how it is shaped.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Class is a social relation etc.


 
Love is a battlefield


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 22, 2013)

I wanna know what love is


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 22, 2013)

but I don't want 39steps to show me


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> How about when he was quaffing champagne at Lord Beaverbrooks?



The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then? 
PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
> PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.


 Brendan Bracken said those things across Beaverbook's dinner table as Bevan was sat across it drinking the pro-fascist arsehole's champagne.



> You Bollinger Bolshevik, you ritzy Robespierre, you lounge-lizard Lenin, look at you, swilling Max's champagne and calling yourself a socialist


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. *Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2*, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
> PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.


You seem to be confusing Aneurin Bevan and Ernest Bevin


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> The only info I can find for that is from a Tory MP Brendan Bracken, who called him a 'Bollinger Bolshevik' and was spearheading a campaign to discredit Bevin. This included paying a prostitute to physically fling herself at Bevin with a photographer waiting to take shots nearby - Bevin pushed the woman away and walked on. Bevin was a member of the war cabinet during WW2, did this champagne drinking episode happen then?
> PS I've drunk champagne, cava and prosecco in my life and I still aint bourgeoisie.


This is Bevan we're talking about.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 22, 2013)

redsquirrel said:


> You seem to be confusing Aneurin Bevan and Ernest Bevin


aneurysm beven


----------



## sunny jim (Oct 22, 2013)

Lo Siento. said:


> Brendan Bracken said those things across Beaverbook's dinner table as Bevan was sat across it drinking the pro-fascist arsehole's champagne.



Have you got a link for this, I couldnt find any that went into any depth and weren't behind a paywall. And taking the word of Bracken, who was most likely behind the prostitute incident, is not something I'm going to do without a few shovelfuls of salt to go with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Have you got a link for this, I couldnt find any that went into any depth and weren't behind a paywall. And taking the word of Bracken, who was most likely behind the prostitute incident, is not something I'm going to do without a few shovelfuls of salt to go with it.


This is in every single biogrpahy - even Foots (also a beaverbrook groupie) hagiography. This is just standard very well known political history.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 22, 2013)

sunny jim said:


> Have you got a link for this, I couldnt find any that went into any depth and weren't behind a paywall. And taking the word of Bracken, who was most likely behind the prostitute incident, is not something I'm going to do without a few shovelfuls of salt to go with it.


http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=2XrPoA9AqMIC&pg=PA18&lpg=PA18&dq=bevan bollinger bolshevik&source=bl&ots=a4rJ17MS0W&sig=8hFsPI6oKNVEssYC4rrTDeekl3o&hl=en&sa=X&ei=EGFmUvXRO6mM0AW6h4H4CQ&ved=0CD0Q6AEwAw

From a Bevan bio. Note the Michael Foot confirmation of the content.

Nothing wrong with enjoying life, everything wrong with doing it with Lord Beaverbrook.


----------



## caleb (Oct 22, 2013)

Let's not forget Bevan's association with Mosley's pre-but-proto-fascist New Party, and how he sold out on nukes, either. Not the pure, saintly figure some would have.

But making it about Bevan misses the point anyway, and buys into sunnyjim's hagiography. The NHS is an entirely different kettle of fish, and would have existed in some form with or without Bevan.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2013)

Glad to here that there were no cider fuelled happy slapping incidents that the Weekly Worker reported on a few years ago


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2013)

It was almost always handbags to be fair. It's a long time since Pete Mastin made an arse of himself chasing a comrade around Conway Hall before being neutralised by a female Red Action/Class War comrade


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

One of the other noteworthy bits about that intersectionalist account of the bookfair is the aside about the anarcha-feminist meeting. Some (not adequately intersectionalised?) anarcha-feminist suggested that at a future conference they should have time to discuss controversial issues like abortion and sex work. And then gets shot down on a rather interesting basis:

"As was rightly pointed out by one of our irl comrades, we come to an anarcha fem space safe in the knowledge that if you are identifying as an anarchist you have rejected the system and discussions such as the one proposed are had by anarchists every day when combatting bigotry. This should not be the starting point; we should already have come to the conclusion that our feminism is inclusive. We might have our own feelings about sex work and abortion, heck, I have my own feelings about some Muslims but I’m not about to force my feelings on others because of the twisted experiences I have personally had"

Now this is rather vague, but in so far as I can extract meaning from it, it seems to amount to this: to have a different view to the writer on the feminist debates around prostitution is not just wrong, but threatening, inappropriate and not allowed in anarchist "space".


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It was almost always handbags to be fair. It's a long time since Pete Mastin made an arse of himself chasing a comrade around Conway Hall before being neutralised by a female Red Action/Class War comrade


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Now this is rather vague, but in so far as I can extract meaning from it, it seems to amount to this: to have a different view to the writer on the feminist debates around prostitution is not just wrong, but threatening, inappropriate and not allowed in anarchist "space".



I would hazard a guess that to disagree with Sam on any basis is akin to a violent assault or worse.

I am glad I did not attend to be honest. I am not sure how well I would handle shouty people shouting _kill all men_ in my face.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 22, 2013)

Also, briefly drummed for Black Sabbath.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Also, briefly drummed for Black Sabbath.


???


----------



## Wilf (Oct 22, 2013)

TopCat said:


> ???


 Bevin/an - okay, I'm a page too late.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Bevin/an - okay, I'm a page too late.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/yes-kill-all-men/

A follow up.

The core of it is that "these three words" "empower us somewhat with your reactions". Which is to say it's again justified not in tactical terms (eg convincing others) but in internal psychological terms.

The rest of it is largely straw man stuff (or to be fair, perhaps arguments against actual twitter responses. There is after all no stupidity too profound for twitter). With an amusing touch of collective responsibility in her hope that someday some random man at an event will sincerely apologise for the wrongs done by all men. Get on it male intersectionalists and post pictures!

Perhaps its time for Proletarian Democracy to set up a men's caucus for the specific purpose of issuing formal apologies? If our intersectionalist bros don't step up to the plate?


----------



## ska invita (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/yes-kill-all-men/
> 
> A follow up.
> 
> The core of it is that "these three words" "empower us somewhat with your reactions". Which is to say it's again justified not in tactical terms (eg convincing others) but in internal psychological terms.


aside from all this Kill All Men stuff it sounds like the "Assangists" were completely out of order - the taking pictures and filming people bit is very suspect. Is there any other report of this other than Sams blog?


----------



## caleb (Oct 22, 2013)

On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.



Vegan cupcakes rule over communist attendance - so I hear


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2013)

ska invita said:


> aside from all this Kill All Men stuff it sounds like the "Assangists" were completely out of order - the taking pictures and filming people bit is very suspect. Is there any other report of this other than Sams blog?



Mullet man with the camcorder should have rightly, had that camcorder rammed up his arse.


----------



## newbie (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.


what will happen if 'communists' turn up and soapbox?  How should provocative and confrontational opponents be treated?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

ska invita said:


> aside from all this Kill All Men stuff it sounds like the "Assangists" were completely out of order - the taking pictures and filming people bit is very suspect. Is there any other report of this other than Sams blog?



Just twitter conversations so far, other than the "poor Assangists" indymedia piece and Ambreen's account. The feminist side were gathering reports though to produce a time line, so I'd expect a more comprehensive telling soon.


----------



## chilango (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.




Really? How so?


----------



## JimW (Oct 22, 2013)

Was most of the response really on just those words? Not followed as don't do twitter (or care very much) but she'd sort of have a point then. It's a daft sentiment and as pointed out above poor tactically but hardly a big deal. They won't be killing a pint, let alone all men. Dropping down to her lot's level to get too bothered by it IMO.
The chanting bit is more worrisome to me just because it seems so Moonie (as opposed to a more of a piss-take across the battle lines like you see at some demos)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2013)

chilango said:


> Really? How so?



No statement as of yet, but there's an email going round afaik.


----------



## chilango (Oct 22, 2013)

Mr.Bishie said:


> No statement as of yet, but there's an email going round afaik.



What is meant by "communists"? Trots? or is it a more specific continuation of a historical feud with the ICC or something?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

chilango said:


> What is meant by "communists"? Trots? or is it a more specific continuation of a historical feud with the ICC or something?



I think it specifically arose because some recent departee from the AF has a publication with communist in the name and was told he couldn't book a stall.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 22, 2013)

chilango said:


> What is meant by "communists"? Trots? or is it a more specific continuation of a historical feud with the ICC or something?



Fuck knows, I've not read the email. All will be revealed no doubt.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> http://samambreen.wordpress.com/2013/10/21/yes-kill-all-men/
> Perhaps its time for Proletarian Democracy to set up a men's caucus for the specific purpose of issuing formal apologies? If our intersectionalist bros don't step up to the place?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


>



We could issue individualised apologies, to each intersectionalist.


----------



## chilango (Oct 22, 2013)

Fucking idiots all around....


----------



## JimW (Oct 22, 2013)

Not sure I'm man enough to represent all men, and that despite once being man enough to represent our local at right back.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.



Pity that as I had provisionally arranged to have the annual Kronstadt memorial re-enactment staged across the road.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

caleb said:


> On another note, communists aren't welcome at the Manchester and Salford Anarchist Bookfair... liberals and hippies are though, of course.


Yet they are allowing the stalinists of the International Brigade Memorial Trust to have a stall. But not an anarchist. Embarrassment.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

The Dublin one is pretty easygoing about that sort of thing, to their credit. If I remember correctly, they've let left groups from way outside the anarchist spectrum have stalls. That way they don't end up in a position where they are trying to evaluate the anarchist merits of vegan bakers versus communists or whatever.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 22, 2013)

A few years back there was a hoo-ha at the bristol one when i tried to book a stall on a basis they felt was not anarchist enough. Last week i saw people stopping the local maoist selling his paper at a meeting as well.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> A few years back there was a hoo-ha at the bristol one when i tried to book a stall on a basis they felt was not anarchist enough. Last week i saw people stopping the local maoist selling his paper at a meeting as well.



Clowns.


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

Did the SWP end up setting up shop outside later in the afternoon, btw? I only saw the SP up til about 12.45


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Oct 22, 2013)

cesare said:


> Did the SWP end up setting up shop outside later in the afternoon, btw? I only saw the SP up til about 12.45



I very much doubt it. They would be aware that it would mean a set piece row of a sort they have nothing to gain from. Then again, party notes is encouraging SWP members to attend the London reclaim the night and the forthcoming London feminist conference, so perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for good sense.

(Also, I will never understand the English SP's love of morning stalls. And at an anarchist event of all places to assume your prospective audience will be up and about).


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I very much doubt it. They would be aware that it would mean a set piece row of a sort they have nothing to gain from. Then again, party notes is encouraging SWP members to attend the London reclaim the night and the forthcoming London feminist conference, so perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for good sense.
> 
> (Also, I will never understand the English SP's love of morning stalls. And at an anarchist event of all places to assume your prospective audience will be up and about).


I think they probably thought discretion was the better part of valour, but I was curious.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I very much doubt it. They would be aware that it would mean a set piece row of a sort they have nothing to gain from. Then again, party notes is encouraging SWP members to attend the London reclaim the night and the forthcoming London feminist conference, so perhaps I'm giving them too much credit for good sense.
> 
> (Also, I will never understand the English SP's love of morning stalls. And at an anarchist event of all places to assume your prospective audience will be up and about).


No 4am industrial sales for you then, Nigel?


----------



## chilango (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> (Also, I will never understand the English SP's love of morning stalls. And at an anarchist event of all places to assume your prospective audience will be up and about).



Morning sales avoid wasting valuable pub time.


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## barney_pig (Oct 22, 2013)

Years back, I remember having a chat over a drink in the RISC bar after an swp meeting in the rooms above, and being informed that as the (empty) bar was a 'gay night' our heterosexual presence was intimidatory and we were not welcome.


----------



## Sue (Oct 22, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> (Also, I will never understand the English SP's love of morning stalls. And at an anarchist event of all places to assume your prospective audience will be up and about).


 
Saturday mornings in Hackney, the SWP sell their papers outside Marks and Spencer and the SP sell theirs a bit further down outside Paddy Power. Can never work out if there's some symbolism there and if so, if it's un/intentional...


----------



## emanymton (Oct 22, 2013)

My local SWP branch sells outside Ann summers


----------



## Wilf (Oct 22, 2013)

emanymton said:


> My local SWP branch sells outside Ann summers


 Basque struggles.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Basque struggles.


----------



## cesare (Oct 22, 2013)

Wilf said:


> Basque struggles.


----------



## gamerunknown (Oct 22, 2013)

Sue said:


> Saturday mornings in Hackney, the SWP sell their papers outside Marks and Spencer and the SP sell theirs a bit further down outside Paddy Power. Can never work out if there's some symbolism there and if so, if it's un/intentional...



SWP are Social Darwinists, SP Provos?



Delroy Booth said:


> Which is why the insurance principle was rejected outright



I don't think it was - in fact, I think it was expanded, which is how I can justify "supporting" the NHS from an anarchist perspective.




			
				Kropotkin said:
			
		

> Fire, theft and accident insurance (especially in villages where equality of conditions permits the charge of an equal premium for all inhabitants), the arrangement by which great English stores will supply for 1s. per week all the fish which a small family may consume, clubs, the innumerable societies of insurance against sickness, etc., etc.. This mass of institutions, created during the 19th century, are an approach towards Communism with regard to part of our total consumption.






			
				Proudhon said:
			
		

> Now I say that, to establish equality among men, it is only necessary to generalize the principle upon which insurance, agricultural, and commercial associations are based.



It is a little odd to recognise how the state has shifted, quite often as a result of popular pressure (rather than merely resolutions of contradictions within capitalism). One may now answer yes to some of these questions:




			
				Berkman said:
			
		

> What rôle does the government play in your existence? Does it help you live? Does it feed, clothe, and shelter you? Do you need it to help you work or play? If you are ill, do you call the physician or the policeman? Can the government give you greater ability than nature endowed you with? Can it save you from sickness, old age, or death?



Of course, in an anarchist society, healthcare would end up being transformed - there would be no hierarchical organisation of function. Different aspects of what healthcare will look like must be acknowledged though. The first is that (accepting the labour theory of value) employer or union funded healthcare within a state capitalist system is more regressive than utilising a progressive income tax. The second, again accepting the labour theory of value, is that resources must be rationed according to how much socially useful labour can be reified*. How resources are voluntarily allocated will likely depend on such measures as "Quality Adjusted Life Years", which is the standard way of doing so, but involve participation from the mass of the community. To be fair, there has been some support for involving the community in decisions of the NHS, possibly fuelled by classical liberal attempts to generate choice from above, rather concordant with the internal market. Of course, barriers to entry for working class people prevent attendance at independent reviews and healthwatch panels. In an anarchist society, one can only hope that the level of socially useful labour necessary is low enough for people to be involved in administering healthcare voluntarily.

* Thus the following argument from the otherwise excellent "The Floodgates of Anarchy" doesn't really hold:




			
				Christie/Meltzer said:
			
		

> But, the bewildered reformer cries, if the rich were not taxed they would be buying second yachts while there would be no funds available for artificial teeth under the National Health Service! It may be wondered if they suppose that a yacht builder can make false teeth, or a dental mechanic uses seasoned timber? Liberalism, like parliamentary socialism, ignores the con trick of the money system, sharing Tory thinking on the real value of money.



The other two points depend on nationalism and internationalism. Should anarchism reign in a single nation, with porous borders "in", one could expect capital flight. This would not necessarily lead to a collapse of healthcare under old liberal principles - one of the artificial barriers to practicing healthcare would be abolished, namely that of accreditation. Now, in most cases, I don't deny that gruelling training is wonderful. I rely heavily on Quackwatch (sawbones _ain't_ sawbones!) and dump any books on "homeopathy" or "natural healing" straight into the bin where I volunteer (I would recycle them, but there's no facility to, unfortunately). However, I hold that it's entirely possible for most individuals to learn the basic principles of triage and get acquainted with one type of surgical procedure. This would normally the province of a specialist that would have to learn the Latin names of every bone in the body before going near someone. The alternatives are to hold that every person with the knowledge and expertise to command a higher entitlement exchange would willingly give that privilege up because of a commitment to egalitarianism, or to accept permanent inequality. The former assumption is drastically at odds with the anarchist conception of human nature - in fact, as Gerald Cohen noted in "If You're an Egalitarian, How Come You're So Rich", if everyone were a perfectly informed angel, capitalism would proceed without contradictions - a single individual with a huge hoard of capital would invest it so as to maximise group utility. The latter is no less at odds with communist anarchism, though would be in accord with Rawlsian justice and the basis of a currency like "Ithaca Hours" (which value the labour time of dentists and doctors above that of the proletaire). An internationalist health service following an anarchist revolution would probably mean lots of hard work just getting places like the Central African Republic, Sierra Leone and Lesotho up to par, without a lot of return for the nations funding them (other than the benefits of having more productive workforces globally). Which leads to the following:




			
				Meltzer said:
			
		

> The Peckham Health scheme was a fine example of communal practice combining prevention with cure which many felt was an example of how an anarchist society might operate.



One of the criticisms levelled at centralised planning in the USSR by Bookchin (IIRC, can't find the quote), was that steel produced at one factory was shipped halfway across the country while it was needed by a manufactory next door, which had to halt production. The same principle occurs in capitalist economies (countries with high rates of malnutrition may export food) and could even occur in countries where the needs of the population were considered (by taking into account opportunity costs of shifting steel and having an accurate scale to determine "need"). A similar problem would occur with voluntary systems of healthcare along local lines - a motive for rescission would remain, individuals would still underestimate the likelihood of their falling ill or having an accident and distinctions between regions would become entrenched (if I were living in South Kensington, would I want my healthcare insurance shared with individuals from Tower Hamlets, for instance?). This problem is known as the "Inverse Care Law" in socialist literature (a pun on the "inverse square law" in physics). 




			
				Orwell said:
			
		

> Moreover, the national health insurance has partly done away with the idea that a working-class patient is a pauper who deserves little consideration. Well into this century it was usual for ‘free’ patients at the big hospitals to have their teeth extracted with no anaesthetic. They didn't pay, so why should they have an anaesthetic — that was the attitude. That too has changed.



Of course, the opposition to monopolies from Andrade could be invoked by right-libertarians claiming "Pareto-efficiency", just as Proudhon's opposition to communism due to their neglect of the "country" or "family" (v.s) is latched on to by crypto-fascists. 




			
				Delroy Booth said:
			
		

> They're not going away infact the rhetoric is basically all out war against any anarchist who doesn't conform to their notions of fighting the Kyriarchy.



But anarchists look equally bizarre to the parliamentary left.


----------



## gawkrodger (Oct 22, 2013)

chilango said:


> Fucking idiots all around....



and here is the pithy summary I was looking for!


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 23, 2013)

sad EDL offshoot threatened to 'attack' the book fair. im assuming it didnt happen?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> sad EDL offshoot threatened to 'attack' the book fair. im assuming it didnt happen?


Unless they were the "kill all men" posse then no.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 23, 2013)

quel surprise! it would have been entertaining if nothing else.


----------



## malatesta32 (Oct 23, 2013)

watch out bristol, the EDL are on their way to build community cohesion.


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## kenny g (Oct 23, 2013)

All this shows to me is how detached the webs can be from political reality. I WENT to the fayre - saw some talks, bought a few pamphlets, had a few chats, went home. The event I went to bears very little relation to all the noise here, however amusing it may be. 

I suppose a parallel would be three thousand people go out on the town. A few have a row and post fuck loads of tweets about it. It certainly doesn't define the night out.


----------



## cesare (Oct 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> All this shows to me is how detached the webs can be from political reality. I WENT to the fayre - saw some talks, bought a few pamphlets, had a few chats, went home. The event I went to bears very little relation to all the noise here, however amusing it may be.
> 
> I suppose a parallel would be three thousand people go out on the town. A few have a row and post fuck loads of tweets about it. It certainly doesn't define the night out.


Yes, see also people that form views of what's going on by reference to twitter alone, then reference twitter as a thermometer despite any "haven't seen that here" views to the contrary.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yes, see also people that form views of what's going on by reference to twitter alone, then reference twitter as a thermometer despite any "haven't seen that here" views to the contrary.



Who would have believed that after 20 years of the internet many peeps seem to prefer a reality based on 140 character messages? I suppose in another 20 people will be blipping dots at each other.

Must be getting old.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

cesare said:


> Yes, see also people that form views of what's going on by reference to twitter alone, then reference twitter as a thermometer despite any "haven't seen that here" views to the contrary.


As a medium twitter is perfect for empty sloganeering, jumping on and calling out, oh that and every twat trying to be Oscar Wilde.

I actually detest it.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 23, 2013)

revol68 said:


> As a medium twitter is perfect for empty sloganeering, jumping on and calling out, oh that and every twat trying to be Oscar Wilde.
> 
> I actually detest it.




 But it caused all those revolutions, and the broom army.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

kenny g said:


> But it caused all those revolutions, and the broom army.


The Broom Army need shooting.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 23, 2013)

revol68 said:


> The Broom Army need shooting.



Charming




*England riots: Are brooms the symbol of the resistance?*
*http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-14475741 *


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

Broom army, make and mend, pop up restaurants, river cottage, Alex James, Jamie Oliver, Mumford and Son and the Big British Bake off can all fuck off.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh and frank "DIY" fucking Turner.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 23, 2013)

Beeny and McCloud?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Beeny and McCloud?


Yup let's add them up till we have an authoritive list. McCloud strikes me as the archetype Audi owner, the smug fuck.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 23, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Oh and frank "DIY" fucking Turner.




avowed libertarian ex eton twat


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

Posters can also submit testimony arguing for the removal of people from this list but if such an appeal is unsuccessful the Committee of Public Safety reserves the power to add you to the list.

Remember tolerance in the service of middle class twattery is no virtue.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 23, 2013)

Oh dear, I have liked 4 posts of revol. What does this tell me? Perhaps i should twitter that question?


----------



## revol68 (Oct 23, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> avowed libertarian ex eton twat



Grew up on an estate you know and was there on a scholarship...


----------



## Frances Lengel (Oct 24, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Broom army, make and mend, pop up restaurants, river cottage, Alex James, Jamie Oliver, Mumford and Son and the Big British Bake off can all fuck off.



You forgot the repugnant Kirstie Allsop.


----------



## bamalama (Oct 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You forgot the repugnant Kirstie Allsop.


And her smug sister and that baldy bollocks on her show


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You forgot the repugnant Kirstie Allsop.



please don't speak of my guilty celebrity crush in that tone of voice.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 24, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> please don't speak of my guilty celebrity crush in that tone of voice.



A Girondin speaks...


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2013)

revol68 said:


> A Girondin speaks...



No, St Etienne is my french footie team of choice. Don't  know why. Probably something to do with Rocheteau and Platini.


----------



## barney_pig (Oct 24, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> please don't speak of my guilty celebrity crush in that tone of voice.


Impossiblism in action


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Impossiblism inaction



corrected it for you


----------



## cantsin (Oct 24, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Grew up on an estate you know and was there on a scholarship...



his dad and grandad were both Eton / and bankers - you can imagine the kind of estate he grew up on, and the scholarship is bollocks.

Revelling in others failure is bad for the soul, but got to confess am enjoying his career, built on utter fakery, stalling .


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2013)

cantsin said:


> Revelling in others failure is bad for the soul,


i am always pleased to see a tory fail. does that make me bad?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

the IWW internal list has been buzzing today with a public spat sparked by an incident in the wetherspoons after the bootsale.  good grief.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i am always pleased to see a tory fail. does that make me bad?



bad, no.  human, yes.


----------



## Geri (Oct 24, 2013)

Frances Lengel said:


> You forgot the repugnant Kirstie Allsop.


 
And her cousin with her twee smelly handbags.


----------



## Onket (Oct 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> the IWW internal list has been buzzing today with a public spat sparked by an incident in the wetherspoons after the bootsale.  good grief.


 
Are you on that too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> the IWW internal list has been buzzing today with a public spat sparked by an incident in the wetherspoons after the bootsale.  good grief.


good to see the wobblies concentrating on the important events of the day


----------



## Onket (Oct 24, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> good to see the wobblies concentrating on the important events of the day


 
There has also been talk about the important events of the day, tbf.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

Onket said:


> Are you on that too?



yup.  i read it but rarely post seeing as i haven't yet managed to get to a branch meeting in a year of membership


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> yup.  i read it but rarely post seeing as i haven't yet managed to get to a branch meeting in a year of membership


Well, time is tight when you're an industrial worker, sweating in the furnace light of the forge or caked in coal dust down the colliery


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Well, time is tight when you're an industrial worker, sweating in the furnace light of the forge or caked in coal dust down the colliery



that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it.


----------



## Onket (Oct 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's my excuse and i'm sticking to it.


 
I'm using the same excuse!

If it looks like you might make it to something ever, let me know!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Well, time is tight when you're an industrial worker, sweating in the furnace light of the forge or caked in coal dust down the colliery


Can't believe i have the chance to get in on this first! The industrial part of the IWW name refers to organising across all sectors/companies/etc of an industry as opposed to craft unions (i.e organisation by specific trade or skill) -  not to industrial working.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

wait, you mean i've joined a union that lets in _office workers_??? yuk.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2013)

It starts with office workers.

Then come the ‘freelances’.

Before you know it, you're balls-deep in juggler co-ops and hubs of webpreneurs.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 24, 2013)

ironic union flags


----------



## Citizen66 (Oct 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> A few years back there was a hoo-ha at the bristol one when i tried to book a stall on a basis they felt was not anarchist enough. Last week i saw people stopping the local maoist selling his paper at a meeting as well.



Anarchists and their bloody rules.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> ironic union flags


Union? Flags?

This calls for a wee bit o'Wullie!


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 24, 2013)

gamerunknown said:


> SWP are Social Darwinists, SP Provos?
> 
> I don't think it was - in fact, I think it was expanded, which is how I can justify "supporting" the NHS from an anarchist perspective.
> 
> ...



Interesting analysis, though I didnt see any definite conclusions. I'd like to know how you see functions like research and development into health/care being maintained within a voluntary healthcare system. And also with regard to access to specialisms. Seems a huge problem.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 24, 2013)

Nice to see Wilfred from the bash street kids getting a day out there


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Can't believe i have the chance to get in on this first! The industrial part of the IWW name refers to organising across all sectors/companies/etc of an industry as opposed to craft unions (i.e organisation by specific trade or skill) -  not to industrial working.




okay smart arse.  Help me out with this one. Why have so many books and articles down the years referred to the IWW as the 'International Workers of the World'? *Who* was the historian and/or political commentator who made the original cock up in print? (I'm presuming it was the one bloke  . . . and all the others have just carried on with the mistake ever since.)

I'd love to know the answer to that particularly annoying niggle and you're my only hope Obi-Wan Apron.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> okay smart arse.  Help me out with this one. Why have so many books and articles down the years referred to the IWW as the 'International Workers of the World'? *Who* was the historian and/or political commentator who made the original cock up in print? (I'm presuming it was the one bloke  . . . and all the others have just carried on with the mistake ever since.)
> 
> I'd love to know the answer to that particularly annoying niggle and you're my only hope Obi-Wan Apron.


INT workers of the world split from the IND workers of the world in 1902


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2013)

international workers of the world http://www.anarchy.no/iwwai.html

industrial workers of the world http://www.iww.org/


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 24, 2013)

btw i was lying about the 1902 thing


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2013)

Careful with that Norway link


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 24, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> international workers of the world http://www.anarchy.no/iwwai.html
> 
> industrial workers of the world http://www.iww.org/



It predates that Norway link. I seen them mistakenly referred to as the International Workers of the World in articles and books that date back 30/40  years.

If Butchers' stumped I'll just pin the blame on A.L. Morton for the sake of it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 24, 2013)

Don't know off top of head but will check refs when back later.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 24, 2013)

Emails from Norway

"**** Uplifting, anthemic" Q magazine


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 24, 2013)

kenny g said:


> But it caused all those revolutions, and the broom army.



I prefer the Broon Army


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 24, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I prefer the Broon Army








A tight little crew


----------



## Nice one (Oct 24, 2013)




----------



## krink (Oct 24, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I prefer the Broon Army



oi! you thieving southern git! that's my idea!!


----------



## gamerunknown (Oct 24, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> Interesting analysis, though I didnt see any definite conclusions. I'd like to know how you see functions like research and development into health/care being maintained within a voluntary healthcare system. And also with regard to access to specialisms. Seems a huge problem.



No doubt, but I think research (in itself) doesn't pose a particularly crucial threat to free communism. People are interested in investigating phenomena and sharing the results of their investigations. Should rent seeking be eliminated, I hope the balance between freer access to the published results (no more paywalls for journals or textbooks) will offset some of the the privileges that are currently bestowed on successful researchers. The same principle can be seen in germinal form in "Freedom of the Sea" and expounded on further in "Socialism and Superior Brains".

As for specialisms - that's a concern, without a doubt. Some part of it will be countered by higher rates of participation and collective decision making, which can sometimes trump the opinion of a well informed expert. Experience will eventually accumulate too, but that in turn creates a new opportunity for rent seeking as people would be willing to alienate labour for more experienced surgeons.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 25, 2013)

D


krink said:


> oi! you thieving southern git! that's my idea!!


great minds and all that


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 25, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> ironic union flags


Jumpers for goalposts


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 25, 2013)

gamerunknown said:


> No doubt, but I think research (in itself) doesn't pose a particularly crucial threat to free communism. People are interested in investigating phenomena and sharing the results of their investigations. Should rent seeking be eliminated, I hope the balance between freer access to the published results (no more paywalls for journals or textbooks) will offset some of the the privileges that are currently bestowed on successful researchers. The same principle can be seen in germinal form in "Freedom of the Sea" and expounded on further in "Socialism and Superior Brains".



No, research in itself raises no issues. But r and d in health applications require hundreds of test subjects and expensive machinery which itself needs to be r and d'd.

Access to machinery itself is a limited resource and thus needs to be allocated. How is that done?

I'm not expecting an answer to such a specific question.. I realise that its almost impossible, so I bring it up as an example of the need for an infrastructure that enables such access.



> As for specialisms - that's a concern, without a doubt. Some part of it will be countered by higher rates of participation and collective decision making, which can sometimes trump the opinion of a well informed expert. Experience will eventually accumulate too, but that in turn creates a new opportunity for rent seeking as people would be willing to alienate labour for more experienced surgeons.



What it suggests is Even without rent seeking some measure of access to specialisms must be available.

And therein lies the rub. This cannot be acheived voluntarily. So we are talking state or privately funded infrastruture. Could you envisage such an infrastructure in free commumism?


----------



## gamerunknown (Oct 25, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> No, research in itself raises no issues...
> 
> Access to machinery itself is a limited resource and thus needs to be allocated. How is that done?
> 
> ...



I think these issues are quite similar and the response to them is the same. We can find examples of cooperation for limited resources even in the extant _verrückt_ system. For instance, we do not require an authority to vacate occupied seats in order that a blind or pregnant person may sit while using public transport. Capitalism itself can only exist with the (coerced) consent of the governed - workers can be shot to death, but not to work. 

Anyway, I think resources can be allocated according to how they afford the greatest quality of life outcomes, as determined by the mass of the people. There will always be discontent - people will feel that their concerns or those of their first "circle of sympathy" are more pressing, even when faced with majority opposition and countervailing evidence. The issue may be that vulnerable people will not be able to command much attention (the most voluble will not be those with communication impairments nor those with difficulty accessing public meetings), though this problem is amplified under capitalism where their voice is merely in proportion to their purchasing power. 

But I don't regard mass participation as a "state or privately funded infrastructure" - I'm not an anarchist against organisation. 

As for medical test subjects: these could be allocated randomly like jury service or use a ream of volunteers.


----------



## krink (Oct 26, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> D
> 
> great minds and all that



worst of all neither of us even got a like!


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

No one likes you.


----------



## krink (Oct 26, 2013)

...we don't care!


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 26, 2013)

love detective said:


> Sam Ambreem (never heard of her before now)



Sounds like another wannabe 'Anything to get noticed' commentariat type to me. First they need to get noticed and then their supposed 'firebrand' persona waters down in direct proportion to their increased media appearances, income and inflated ego.


----------



## newbie (Oct 26, 2013)

Bakunin said:


> Sounds like another wannabe 'Anything to get noticed' commentariat type to me. First they need to get noticed and then their supposed 'firebrand' persona waters down in direct proportion to their increased media appearances, income and inflated ego.


maybe.  or maybe she's just angry, articulate and motivated.  I see no reason to dismiss or belittle her simply because her opinions aren't exactly my own.

she posted this yesterday  specially for you, the disbelieving oppressor



_I’m not middle class or a student or mixed race or even white.

I was born to immigrant parents, a mechanic and housewife bought here for the purpose of marriage. He worked but she raised us on child benefit. She remained in an abusive relationship until aged 16 I made her seek a divorce. I ended my education after my GCSEs.

For the next 12 years, I would live in over 30 different addresses.

I have been out of work for a few years now with PTSD and a spinal injury.

You don’t know me, you cannot dismiss my experiences with accusations of bourgie aspirations or reject my experiences because of my physical appearance. You cannot derail my lived oppressions with your judgmental and often wrong opinions.

Why would you believe me? You are after all, the oppressor._


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

> I am a woman who oozes hefty privileges. I am white, cis, able bodied, and functionally middle class and I have an education



Pick and choose menz.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 26, 2013)

.


----------



## krink (Oct 26, 2013)

I DIDN'T ASK TO BE BOOOOOORRRRRRRN!!!


----------



## newbie (Oct 26, 2013)

interesting.  will the real Sam please stand up.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

newbie said:


> interesting.  will the real Sam please stand up.


I have to confess, hidden in the open words that intro the piece, she says it's from a comrade. Big fuck up on my part. One that demonstrates that who you know is who you know though.


----------



## revol68 (Oct 26, 2013)

eta ffs butchers


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

revol68 said:


> eta ffs butchers


I'm on a roll today, i knocked on the door next to my mates earlier.


----------



## newbie (Oct 26, 2013)

well yes, you know who you know, and obviously deserve attacks because of it. especially the ones you know online. 

It's a bit tenuous.

I'm not about to cheerlead her politics, they're not mine and never will be, and I'm perfectly happy to see them deconstructed.  But the lazy smear, ...commentariat... income...ego...... who she knows... does nothing useful.  It's just drawing the waggons into a circle, demonstrating the essence of her last line

_Why would you believe me? You are after all, the oppressor._


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

newbie said:


> well yes, you know who you know, and obviously deserve attacks because of it. especially the ones you know online.
> 
> It's a bit tenuous.
> 
> ...


What smear? Can you point to someone arguing that logic? Isn't this itself a smear? Unless you can evidence it up of course.


----------



## newbie (Oct 26, 2013)

Bakunin's post and the bit of yours.  your initial point, and subsequent retraction, fine, no problem at all.  so why the sting in the tail?

By their associates so ye shall know them?  come on, that's not a worthy attack and never will be, especially if you have no clue how well they know their associate.  at best it's a little bit of supporting rhetoric, at worst a simple sneer.


----------



## tufty79 (Oct 26, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> I have to confess, hidden in the open words that intro the piece, she says it's from a comrade


it took me *ages* to find that.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 26, 2013)

newbie said:


> Bakunin's post and the bit of yours.  your initial point, and subsequent retraction, fine, no problem at all.  so why the sting in the tail?
> 
> By their associates so ye shall know them?  come on, that's not a worthy attack and never will be, especially if you have no clue how well they know their associate.  at best it's a little bit of supporting rhetoric, at worst a simple sneer.





> commentariat... income...ego.?


Where did i suggest this? Where did i even hint at it?


----------



## newbie (Oct 26, 2013)

you didn't, bakunin did, which was what my initial post was a response to.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Pick and choose menz.



When she says "menz" I'm pretty sure she doesnt mean people like you.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Even though she explicitly says that she does. Ooze elsewhere.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Even though she explicitly says that she does. Ooze elsewhere.



I'll ooze where I like thank you. Trust me, if she knew you she'd work out pretty quick that you barely qualify.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Yes, _you'll do anything you want to anyone you want_. That's the problem with you.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

No, thats YOUR problem with me. Plain old simple jealousy.

Go ahead.. claim I did something to someone and fail to back it up again. Rumour and pettiness...thats all you got.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

I am jealous of your gropey tendencies, i am jealous of your bullshit to justify it? That's really what you think? Wow.

edit: nice unacknowledged edit  btw.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> No, thats YOUR problem with me. Plain old simple jealousy.
> 
> Go ahead.. claim I did something to someone and fail to back it up again. Rumour and pettiness...thats all you got.


You _know _that i have more than that, you know that _others _do too. Hence these posts of yours. Your long running attempts at policing discussions about sexual assault are part of that knowledge.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

Justify what? Something you made up?

Its only long running cos you keep bringing it up hoping that other easily led folk will believe it through repetition. 

It works, but then thats how fuckers like you do politics.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

Its also the reason why people like Sam are a cut above you. Misguided or not at least she is honest and believes what she says. Whereas you get everything you say out of a book.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

_It's only long running because you keep bringing it up. _Genius logic_._ I haven't convinced a single person about you as far as i know. Your own actions, though, have.

Look at this oozing last post, you openly say that to think you're dodgy is to agree with me, to agree with someone that you probably don't like, and if you get past that then you're some kind of sheeple. _Policing_. You know that you're fucked.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

I'm content to be the bad guy for you and all your lame internet mates. I just wish you had the balls to actually tackle me in some subject instead of making up rumours over and over again.

But since you got your arse handed to you every time you tried I dont blame you for being a bit scared.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I'm content to be the bad guy for you and all your lame internet mates. I just wish you had the balls to actually tackle me in some subject instead of making up rumours over and over again.
> 
> But since you got your arse handed to you every time you tried I dont blame you for being a bit scared.



Not sure i even need reply to this post, beyond highlighting that this arrogance is how it happens.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Not sure i even need reply to this post,



But you will anyway... because its true... and it stings.



> beyond highlighting that this arrogance is how it happens.



This arrogance is how it started. Because you think you should be the only one allowed to be arrogant. And the jealousy started when you realised that my arrogance is mostly self confidence whereas yours is as faked as one of your partners orgasms.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Wow. Def getting rid of the sex-case 'rumours' with that post.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

To be honest I dont even know what you are blathering on about half the time... much less care. Because of your deep seated repression... to you a sex-case is anyone who ever had sex and enjoyed it. I cant really get myself too worked up over it. But please do feel free to blather on about it.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Keep policing those threads about sexual assault kizmet. It won't help you when the pressure does drop.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

Well, since we are offering out advice.. heres mine... go get yourself a self-help dvd about repression and take some time away from the internet. Go spend some serious quality time with the missus. Learn to cook and look after yourself, you're a full grown man fer chrissakes! Put down those fucking books and learn to live a little.

Learn to be proud of yourself butchy, not full of yourself.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Ugh, it tried to touch me whilst smiling.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

It?

You're an ugly one inside and out, aintcha? Now I'm not smiling.

You should back away from this now before I poke you into exposing more about just what kind of person you really are.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> It?
> 
> You're an ugly one inside and out, aintcha? Now I'm not smiling.
> 
> You should back away from this now before I poke you into exposing more about just what kind of person you really are.


Let's play that game. Let's see who ends up where.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2013)

I think the Sam Ambreen derail was more interesting.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Let's play that game. Let's see who ends up where.



For those people who are honest... its not a game.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I think the Sam Ambreen derail was more interesting.



I know Sam, shes an honest, caring and open person. Regardless of her politics she means well. Much of the speculative comments about her have been ill informed and some spiteful.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> For those people who are honest... its not a game.


It's not is it. It's not a game.

That we find you on the inside of this stuff is pretty telling.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's not is it. It's not a game.
> 
> That we find you on the inside of this stuff is pretty telling.


That we find you contradicting yourself within two posts is even more telling.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 28, 2013)

That you can't and that you need to construct a fantasy 'we' is far more revealing.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

It is. I used it as wordplay based on your post... you used it because you are a pack animal who only feels brave when surrounded by cohorts.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That you can't and that you need to construct a fantasy 'we' is far more revealing.


he's taking the wee


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

And here they come....


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> It is. I used it as wordplay based on your post... you used it because you are a pack animal who only feels brave when surrounded by cohorts.


traditionally pack animals followed the cohorts rather than being situated in the middle of them.


----------



## TopCat (Oct 28, 2013)

Kizmet said:


> I know Sam, shes an honest, caring and open person. Regardless of her politics she means well. Much of the speculative comments about her have been ill informed and some spiteful.


I agree with a lot of her professed political positions. I think she is a self obsessed hypocrite though.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

Pickman's model Thats nice.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I agree with a lot of her professed political positions. I think she is a self obsessed hypocrite though.



Then she'll make a great politician.


----------



## emanymton (Oct 28, 2013)

once again kizmet comes across as seriously creppy.


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 28, 2013)

Yeah, of course. And people bringing up old rumours is perfectly normal in your world.

In fact it probably is. Some of you guys live for this shit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 28, 2013)

emanymton said:


> once again kizmet comes across as seriously creppy.


shurely 'crappy'


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 28, 2013)

emanymton said:


> once again kizmet comes across as seriously creppy.



yep


----------



## newbie (Oct 29, 2013)

TopCat said:


> I agree with a lot of her professed political positions. I think she is a self obsessed hypocrite though.


seriously hypocritical or merely contradictory?


----------



## TopCat (Oct 29, 2013)

newbie said:


> seriously hypocritical or merely contradictory?


The former.


----------



## krink (Oct 30, 2013)

haha it's the 'scene and heard' in private eye!!


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 30, 2013)

krink said:


> haha it's the 'scene and heard' in private eye!!



What happened in room 326 then?


----------



## krink (Oct 30, 2013)

I want to know if that's anyone from here with the full communism shirt


----------



## krink (Oct 30, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> What happened in room 326 then?



what happened in room 326 stays in room 326


----------



## JimW (Oct 30, 2013)

Where's me scan of said article?


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 30, 2013)

krink said:


> haha it's the 'scene and heard' in private eye!!


I'll  try and scan it and stick up. Thought he could have made more it tbh.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 30, 2013)

Someone on twitter scanned it in already: (@*thatpointagain*)


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 30, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Someone on twitter scanned it in already: (@*thatpointagain*)



A bit naff, innit?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 30, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> A bit naff, innit?


 ... but, but, it has a joke a anarchits not being organised.  Shurely _that's_ funny!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 30, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Someone on twitter scanned it in already: (@*thatpointagain*)



that's basically anti-anarchist propaganda masquerading as a light dig for those in the know.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 30, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's basically anti-anarchist propaganda masquerading as a light dig for those in the know.



It's a little odd for sure.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 30, 2013)

The thing is there's loads they could have legitimately taken the piss out of, but the cartoonist being essentially a lefty liberal type himself was clearly struggling.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 30, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> It's a little odd for sure.


do you find its just this Scene & heard thats odd, or all of them?

how good it is depends on what quotes he overhears I guess


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 30, 2013)

Scene & Heard is always one of the weaker features of Private Eye imo.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 30, 2013)

Private Eye is shite anyway I have no idea why people place so much faith in what they write


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 30, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> Scene & Heard is always one of the weaker features of Private Eye imo.


yeah I rarely read it


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 30, 2013)

failed to make a dogs on string/cider/smelliness gag so fails.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 30, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> failed to make a dogs on string/cider/smelliness gag so fails.



I couldn't find any cider for sale this year from any of the stalls.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 30, 2013)

kenny g said:


> I couldn't find any cider for sale this year from any of the stalls.



And dogs are banned nowadays.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 30, 2013)

kenny g said:


> I couldn't find any cider for sale this year from any of the stalls.




smelliness is still maintained though?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Oct 30, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> smelliness is still maintained though?



It was worse this year than for a long time...


----------



## love detective (Oct 30, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The thing is there's loads they could have legitimately taken the piss out of, but the cartoonist being essentially a lefty liberal type himself was clearly struggling.



And the standing outside shops thing is just a plagiarism from sol fed types taking the piss out of themselves, so doesn't really work at all as satire


----------



## redsquirrel (Oct 30, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The thing is there's loads they could have legitimately taken the piss out of, but the cartoonist being essentially a lefty liberal type himself was clearly struggling.


Yeah, it's just so fucking weak. They need to go see 39Steps.


----------



## cesare (Oct 30, 2013)

love detective said:


> And the standing outside shops thing is just a plagiarism from sol fed types taking the piss out of themselves, so doesn't really work at all as satire


The cartoonist probably just wandered up to one of them and asked them what they did. "Stand outside shops and go to meetings".


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> that's basically anti-anarchist propaganda masquerading as a light dig for those in the know.



Hysteria. Everything is a conspiracy against the anarchists.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Hysteria. Everything is a conspiracy against the anarchists.



That's especially ironic considering it comes from someone who seems to be doing their best to slander and demonise anarchists in a professional capacity.

You get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left. That's what you do. Bit rich of you to accuse them of hysteria really.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> That's especially ironic considering it comes from someone who seems to be doing their best to slander and demonise anarchists in a professional capacity.
> 
> You get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left. That's what you do. Bit rich of you to accuse them of hysteria really.



Yes, I get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left, you fucking fantasist.

Richard Ingrams, the old Eye editor calls himself an anarchist. This sketch, fyi, is not primarily a comedy piece.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Yes, I get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left, you fucking fantasist.



Yeah I just invented the ANARCHO TERROR NETWORK!!! story you wrote. Pure fantasy. 

Do one you gobshite.


----------



## jakethesnake (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Yes, I get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left, you fucking fantasist.


 More of a hobby then is it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Yes, I get paid a salary to attack the anarcho-left, you fucking fantasist.


i think the claim you have a job's a fantasy.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah I just invented the ANARCHO TERROR NETWORK!!! story you wrote. Pure fantasy.
> 
> Do one you gobshite.



Yes, I'm on a retainer just in case anarchists do something to move the needle again, ever.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> Yeah I just invented the ANARCHO TERROR NETWORK!!! story you wrote. Pure fantasy.
> 
> Do one you gobshite.



Link?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

jakethesnake said:


> More of a hobby then is it?



More like a calling.



DrRingDing said:


> Link?



http://www.urban75.net/forums/threa...lling-in-bristol.293927/page-23#post-12510114


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

You ever written owt for the Eye Brian?


----------



## imposs1904 (Oct 31, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> It was worse this year than for a long time...



I'm sure it'll never ever reach the rich pungency one would wade through when attending the Anarchist Bookfair at Conway Hall.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 31, 2013)

Brian, were you compelled to use that pathetic language?


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Brian, were you compelled to use that pathetic language?



Pathetic and inaccurate too. 

But who cares about technicalities? We've got Anarchists to sling in jail.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> You ever written owt for the Eye Brian?


I have, even been to the infamous lunch. That's where I was initiated into the _MSM anti-anarchist conspiracy_, even though I regularly give the ultra-left a voice in articles.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Even though I regularly give the ultra-left a voice in articles.



By calling them terrorists? 

I'm sure the ultra-left are very grateful for the platform you so kindly gave them.

You know Steve Kingston?


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

I do apologise, what's the word again for someone who threatens to shoot their political opponents and sabotages public transport?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> I do apologise, what's the word again for someone who threatens to shoot their political opponents and sabotages public transport?


politician


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> I have, even been to the infamous lunch. That's where I was initiated into the _MSM anti-anarchist conspiracy_, even though I regularly give the ultra-left a voice in articles.


more of a scaffold than a platform


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> what's the word again for someone who threatens to shoot their political opponents



General? _"War is the continuation of politics with the admixture of other means"_

By the definition you're employing all political violence is terrorism. Every war ever fought in human history is terrorism. It's stupid sensationalist tabloid shit that you deliberately chose to smear in the most dangerous way the wider anarchist movement. Only someone deliberately trying to smear Anarchists would go out of their way to mis-use a term like that.

I'd go into the details but somehow I think you're smart enough to know what I'm on about. I'm not buying this faux-sincerity for a moment.

Someone going out of their way to brand them terrorists, knowing full well the draconian anti-terror legislation in this country and what it would mean should these people be caught, you might as well be working for the police I mean you're doing their job for them as it is.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> I do apologise, what's the word again for someone who threatens to shoot their political opponents and sabotages public transport?



Oh please, you watched from the other side as the Evening Standard and The Daily Mail churned out ridiculous alarmist bullshit about anarchists stockpiling grenades and so on - you know what utter horseshit it is and you know the (fairly mundane) reality of most anarchist groups. I can't believe even you thought that article you wrote was anything more than specious nonsense.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

It is curious how the _movement _is far more concerned with covering up the emergence of the IAF than dealing with the fallout that these people are going to bring down on them - regardless of media attention or not. That the police haven't lifted a single IAF member should ring alarm bells. I point at the moon, you look at my hand.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> It is curious how the _movement _is far more concerned with covering up the emergence of the IAF than dealing with the fallout that these people are going to bring down on them - regardless of media attention or not. That the police haven't lifted a single IAF member should ring alarm bells. I point at the moon, you look at my hand.


I think the thread that your story was first posted on should tell you that this picture is not true at best and self-serving (_i did you a favour_) nonsense at worst.


----------



## Lo Siento. (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> It is curious how the _movement _is far more concerned with covering up the emergence of the IAF than dealing with the fallout that these people are going to bring down on them - regardless of media attention or not. That the police haven't lifted a single IAF member should ring alarm bells. I point at the moon, you look at my hand.


Covering up? I've seen enough tabloid bullshit stories and know enough about the (pretty tame) reality of our groups to discount even the merest possibility that it exists in any serious way.

(As you should've done. What was it? First draft you submitted handed back with a request for more drama?)


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> That the police haven't lifted a single member should ring alarm bells.



And what's your theory about this? If you have important information or insight the _movement_ ought to know, perhaps you should share it? Or do your loyalties lie elsewhere now*

For what it's worth this IAF lot look like a bunch of sub-Angry Brigade cretins. I'd be loathed to call it terrorism, since by their own logic they're not trying to instigate political change by terrorising the populous, which is generally seen as the definition of terrorism, but trying to disrupt the infastructure capitalism needs to exist - a laughable approach and not one I agree with, but at least get it right.

_*bit of a rhetorical one that_


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> It is curious how the _movement _is far more concerned with covering up the emergence of the IAF than dealing with the fallout that these people are going to bring down on them - regardless of media attention or not. That the police haven't lifted a single IAF member should ring alarm bells. I point at the moon, you look at my hand.


seeing if your rings are worth anything


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2013)

Wheels piece was basically a local update of another sexy (far-right/far left/hooligans/violence) piece from wheels other mates at wait for it....Vice.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Hysteria. Everything is a conspiracy against the anarchists.



i don't know about everything.  but that cartoon is basically the same as the person who thought they were being clever when they commented that 'dogs weren't allowed'.  i assume you did it then?  are the digs in it meant to be friendly digs?


----------



## el-ahrairah (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> I point at the moon, you look at my hand.



yes, but you're pointing at the moon and calling it OMG EVIL ANARCHIST MOON COMING TO CRUSH US.  we're looking at your hand to make sure you're not holding anything dangerous.


----------



## Balbi (Oct 31, 2013)

The idea of the moon being an evil anarchist moon coming to crush us is beautiful


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)




----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> It is curious how the _movement _is far more concerned with covering up the emergence of the IAF than dealing with the fallout that these people are going to bring down on them - regardless of media attention or not. That the police haven't lifted a single IAF member should ring alarm bells. I point at the moon, you look at my hand.


Are you seriously saying that you wrote that piece to highlight spooks at work in anarchist groups? Why didn't you suggest anything of the sort or link it to past examples then?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are you seriously saying that you wrote that piece to highlight spooks at work in anarchist groups? Why didn't you suggest any of the sort or link it to past examples then?


for lazyhack read shithack


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i assume you did it then?  are the digs in it meant to be friendly digs?


 Why would you assume I did it? It is one of the few Eye pieces that actually carries a byline. The clue is on the page.


----------



## lazyhack (Oct 31, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> for lazyhack read shithack


 
Mods, is it too late to change my username?!


----------



## Kizmet (Oct 31, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> Are you seriously saying that you wrote that piece to highlight spooks at work in anarchist groups? Why didn't you suggest anything of the sort or link it to past examples then?



"His mates" at vice did, though.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2013)

Most amusing how the totalitarian so called anarchists on here try so hard to attack a cartoon. And apparently the cartoon must be part of a conspiracy!!

FWIW IAF actions look pretty terroristic to me. And whoever is doing them would be idiots if they didn't expect a robust state response. As for the so called anarchists who bleat that they should never be considered a threat by the state, the absurdity of their position speaks for itself.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 31, 2013)

I can see why you're so respected Kenny.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Oct 31, 2013)

Kenny the only person who used the word "conspiracy" was Brian, not the anarchists.

And I didn't think it was a particularly good cartoon, but Scene and Heard is regularly one of Eye's least interesting and amusing features so I don't see much evidence of a conspiracy, or even an deliberate anti-anarchist bias.

There's a horrible sneering tone to Private Eye's humour. It's regularly featured sexist reactionary and witless crap as humour, Viz-reject standard.

And the reporting is often really shockingly poor. The literary review (Bookworm?) is fucking dire. Remember the MMR stuff they were pushing concerning Andrew Wakefield? They kept flogging that dead horse for ages. No wonder they don't put names on the bylines of their articles. 

The only thing that's consistently any good is the City stuff at the back, and not being a City type much of the things he's referencing go over my head, but at least there's a consistent standard there but otherwise Eye is really very poor. The stuff about football in particular is excellent.

I'd like to start a "Why Private Eye is going down the Pan" thread coz I got left a mountain of back issues when my ex's dad died, but I really want to avoid spending too much time here coz i've got real world commitments to deal with.


----------



## kenny g (Oct 31, 2013)

Delroy Booth said:


> I really want to avoid spending too much time here coz i've got real world commitments to deal with.



Fully appreciate  that.  I  agree about Private Eye - stopped reading it years back. The cartoon wasn't exactly biting satire, and heavens knows there was enough material this year.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

Bookfairtimeline.wordpress.com

Here's the anti-O'Reilly side of the story in considerable detail. It certainly makes the Assangists look like complete dicks.

I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Bookfairtimeline.wordpress.com
> 
> Here's the anti-O'Reilly side of the story in considerable detail. It certainly makes the Assangists look like complete dicks.
> 
> I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.



He and his entourage should of got slapped. I'm not a violent person but that is taking the piss.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 1, 2013)

Infact he should be invited next year for sport.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Bookfairtimeline.wordpress.com
> 
> Here's the anti-O'Reilly side of the story in considerable detail. It certainly makes the Assangists look like complete dicks.
> 
> I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.



"A woman in the anarcha-feminist conference planning meeting, identifying herself as a radical feminist, described sex work and abortion as ‘contentious issues’ within anarchist feminism." Is absurd as supposed evidence of a lack of a safer space.


I am not really sure what the timeline authors want the bookfair organisers to do. Should they close it down? Have SIA registered security on the doors and in the courtyard? Publish a longwinded safer spaces policy that excludes contentious issues being raised? I would support a brief statement saying that anyone fighting, filming, drunk, or engaging in generic hate speech will be told to leave. This would cover both people saying "Kill all men" and all the transphobic crap that was being said. PLUS free hugs are obviously well out of order. HOWEVER - there is no way anyone can say that because they choose to be offended by someone saying sex work and abortion are contentious issues this should not be discussed at the book fair.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 1, 2013)

imposs1904 said:


> I'm sure it'll never ever reach the rich pungency one would wade through when attending the Anarchist Bookfair at Conway Hall.


re: smell, the main room is too hot and the windows dont open. any well attended bookfair in there would get a bit smelly


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 1, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Why would you assume I did it? It is one of the few Eye pieces that actually carries a byline. The clue is on the page.


 
i don't know who you are and I don't read Private Eye.  I'd never even noticed your username before you accused me of being hysterical because I suggested that the cartoon might not be entirely sympathetic to the anarchist cause.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.


 
i agree with this.  whilst there are some areas of anarchist thought that you need to agree with to be an anarchist, there are others where there is no agreement.  how dare these people try and present those areas as Problems because it doesn't fit in with their interpretation.  I mean, FFS, O'Reilly's behaviour gets censured because he's a dickhead and fair enough, but he's a fucking catholic and they don't critique that but anarcho-feminists holding a talk are?


----------



## TopCat (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Bookfairtimeline.wordpress.com
> 
> Here's the anti-O'Reilly side of the story in considerable detail. It certainly makes the Assangists look like complete dicks.
> 
> I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.


It's a hilariously partial account.


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 1, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> I suggested that the cartoon might not be entirely sympathetic to the anarchist cause.


You said; "anti-anarchist propaganda"

_"Two men fought quite violently in the main courtyard, punching each other and knocking over tables. One man smashed a bottle very near to the other’s head. It appeared to be a completely consensual fight, but made many people in the area feel nervous and unsafe."_

Presumably none of these people have been to an estate pub in their lives?


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2013)

I've seen more rucks in town pubs than estate ones


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 1, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> You said; "anti-anarchist propaganda"
> 
> _"Two men fought quite violently in the main courtyard, punching each other and knocking over tables. One man smashed a bottle very near to the other’s head. It appeared to be a completely consensual fight, but made many people in the area feel nervous and unsafe."_
> 
> Presumably none of these people have  been to an estate pub in their lives?


Now, think, who are you quoting? Who are you asking?


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 1, 2013)

cesare said:


> I've seen more rucks in town pubs than estate ones



I've seen plenty of handbags in town pubs but for real drunk pugilism its all about the locals


----------



## cesare (Nov 1, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I've seen plenty of handbags in town pubs but for real drunk pugilism its all about the locals


This anarchist one doesn't sound particularly "real drunk pugilism".


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 1, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> You said; "anti-anarchist propaganda"


 
i'm sorry, i'll try and avoid using sarcasm or nuance in your presence.  as a writer i thought you'd be able to get it.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 1, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> You said; "anti-anarchist propaganda"
> 
> _"Two men fought quite violently in the main courtyard, punching each other and knocking over tables. One man smashed a bottle very near to the other’s head. It appeared to be a completely consensual fight, but made many people in the area feel nervous and unsafe."_
> 
> Presumably none of these people have been to an estate pub in their lives?


Whelan your article was abit sensationalist you got to admit. That shit sells though I guess.

Plus did you give the private eye guy the lowdown on what happened at the boot sale?


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

TopCat said:


> It's a hilariously partial account.




Well, yes, but I don't really doubt their claim that the Assangists, once the confrontations began were dishing out anti-trans slurs. Or that a boozing Anon clown started shouting about the feminist movement sucking his dick. That stuff has the ring of truth about it.

The interesting thing about the presentation isn't really the information it presents about the Assangists. I've no problem siding with the intersectionalistas on that one. It isn't really its partiality either (it could hardly be otherwise). It's more what it reveals about the intersectionalist mental landscape. They initiate a set piece confrontation, but in so far as the arseholes they are confronting shout back, the issue is then presented largely in terms of how "unsafe" the responses made various individuals feel. Their desire to delegitimise disagreement, to drive it out of discussion altogether, doesn't end with Nazis (the traditional target of "no platform" stances, directly invoked by an intersectionalist as a comparison in the timeline piece), nor with Assangist crusties but extends in a less dramatic way even to that unlucky anarcha-feminist who was, as far as our writers are concerned, off message on what can and can't be discussed in "our spaces".

It's cheating a bit, as it doesn't come from the timeline, but some of the same people were blowing a gasket on twitter because one of the Novara people said he'd like to get Russell Brand on. The response wasn't "that's a good idea, but it's vital that the interviewer is a feminist who can raise Brand's views on gender while arguing a hard line pro women's liberation point of view". It was a bunch of stuff about how even raising the possibility was "upsetting" people, and listening to him would "hurt us". It then escalated towards an explicit demand for No Platform. There were also rather blunt hints that the Novara dude shouldn't be arguing his point of view on account of his penis. Again the interesting thing about this wasn't that they hate Brand - I certainly think that kind if celebrity "radical" needs to be approached with a healthy skepticism. It was that their response isn't to argue, but to seek to exclude from "our spaces". Even when that's entirely absurd, given the size of the platform in question in comparison with the platform already available to a Brand. They can't actually no platform Russell Brand. What they can do is police the ideological purity of radical "spaces".


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

It's not the personal as political, it's the personal in place of politics.

Fuck off with your feelings, an emotion isn't a reasoned argument.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

Refusing to discuss something because it makes you feel "unsafe" is pathetic, it would be pathetic from a conservative or liberal it's contemptible from supposed radicals and revolutionaries.

I wonder how these people deal with the world outside their political/activist/student union bubbles.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> It's not the personal as political, it's the personal in place of politics.
> 
> Fuck off with your feelings, an emotion isn't a reasoned argument.



Ah now, revol68, you've just left yourself wide open to a barrage of claims that you are seeking to silence the anger of the oppressed, committing sexist micro aggression and denying the truth of their lived experience.


----------



## rioted (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Fuck off with your feelings, an emotion isn't a reasoned argument.


People who talk of revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints - such people have a corpse in their mouth.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Ah now, revol68, you've just left yourself wide open to a barrage of claims that you are seeking to silence the anger of the oppressed, committing sexist micro aggression and trying to undermine the truth of their lived experience.



Nonsense, when I said "kill all women" I was making a structural critique aimed at "women" as a construct of feminity under patriarchy.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

rioted said:


> People who talk of revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints - such people have a corpse in their mouth.



To be fair to the twitter intersectionalists, anarchism (or semi anarchism) has long had an indigenous strand of this stuff. As rioted so kindly demonstrates.


----------



## Delroy Booth (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Again the interesting thing about this wasn't that they hate Brand - I certainly think that kind if celebrity "radical" needs to be approached with a healthy skepticism. It was that their response isn't to argue, but to seek to exclude from "our spaces". Even when that's entirely absurd, given the size of the platform in question in comparison with the platform already available to a Brand. They can't actually no platform Russell Brand. What they can do is police the ideological purity of radical "spaces".



That last point is really interesting and insightful. Advocating No Platform not in a general sense but within a certain bubble/mileu whatever you want to call it.

It's quite an inward looking clique really isn't it?

Also agree with you in siding with the intersectionalista crew over these Anon types. Perhaps it's because we've discussed the former lot so much on here in the past that they're getting the most attention here, but let's make no mistake that kind of abusive misogynistic behaviour that comes from that Anonymous tendency is totally unacceptable, in any kind of scenario.

It's weird because I've felt in this position before - I don't agree with much of the logic but on the issue itself I tend to come down on the same side as the intersectionalista, albeit with a different set of reasonings leading up to it.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

rioted said:


> People who talk of revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints - such people have a corpse in their mouth.



He didn't mean that you should reduce politics to going on about your feelings. 

Everyday life isn't just your emotions, some private sphere.

Why is it people fondest of quoting the situationists never seem to understand them.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> He didn't mean that you should reduce politics to going on about your feelings.
> 
> Everyday life isn't just your emotions, some private sphere.
> 
> Why is it people fondest of quoting the situationists never seem to understand them.



Ah, that was Debord?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Ah, that was Debord?



Vaneigem. And Revol is right about every day life.

ETA: I think one of the protagonists in the bookfair debacle (Stavvers?) quoted that on twitter recently.


----------



## newbie (Nov 1, 2013)

I'm somewhat shocked by the explicit anti-trans abuse.  I know it's been going on among US feminists but had no idea that any men attending an anarchist event in this country would behave like that. Why?  Are these just random bigots or are they underpinned by an ideological position (as in the US), anyone know?


----------



## gawkrodger (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Refusing to discuss something because it makes you feel "unsafe" is pathetic, it would be pathetic from a conservative or liberal it's contemptible from supposed radicals and revolutionaries.
> 
> I wonder how these people deal with the world outside their political/activist/student union bubbles.



This x1000


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

newbie said:


> I'm somewhat shocked by the explicit anti-trans abuse.  I know it's been going on among US feminists but had no idea that any men attending an anarchist event in this country would behave like that. Why?  Are these just random bigots or are they underpinned by an ideological position (as in the US), anyone know?



I would suspect that it was mostly opportunistic. There were trans women amongst the hostile crowd. They were easy to single out and victimise. That certainly means that there was an underlying transphobic prejudice there, but its probably of the common or garden variety found throughout society rather than a specialist political theory of the kind found amongst transphobic variants of radical feminism.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2013)

rioted said:


> People who talk of revolution and class struggle without referring explicitly to everyday life, without understanding what is subversive about love and what is positive in the refusal of constraints - such people have a corpse in their mouth.


everyday life not usually an emotion.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> everyday life not usually an emotion.



What's love got to do with it.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> What's love got to do with it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Bookfairtimeline.wordpress.com
> 
> Here's the anti-O'Reilly side of the story in considerable detail. It certainly makes the Assangists look like complete dicks.
> 
> I note that the unfortunate anarcha-feminist who was so inadequately intersectionalised that she suggested having room to debate sex work and abortion gets listed under "other incidents". In its own way that says more about the drive to delegitimise disagreement running through this form of politics than the main set of incidents.


I was wondering if and when that was going to arrive on this thread, and what the responses to it would be.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I was wondering if and when that was going to arrive on this thread, and what the responses to it would be.



What's your own view?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> What's your own view?


I don't really have much connection to the "anarchist" part, but I do have some to the trans/gender area which was where I came across the report. It sounds like the people concerned were throwing out some unacceptable abuse to me, on first glance, and I'm not sure how further glances would excuse it somehow. While I didn't think anyone here was involved, I'm interested to hear what resulted in a more general sense, if anything at all.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

A person I trust says that just prior to the incident a number of those involved in the shenanigans had been gleefully discussing "going trolling".


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I don't really have much connection to the "anarchist" part, but I do have some to the trans/gender area which was where I came across the report. It sounds like the people concerned were throwing out some unacceptable abuse to me, on first glance, and I'm not sure how further glances would excuse it somehow. While I didn't think anyone here was involved, I'm interested to hear what resulted in a more general sense, if anything at all.



Jesus, I should hope that nobody here would be involved in abusing trans women.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> A person I trust says that just prior to the incident a number of those involved in the shenanigans had been gleefully discussing "going trolling".


Sorry, which "those involved" are we talking about here?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> Jesus, I should hope that nobody here would be involved in abusing trans women.


I would also hope not.

I'm more interested to hear what happened after this incident though.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Sorry, which "those involved" are we talking about here?


Not the "rape apologists", the "genocidal murder of half the population as a structural metaphor apologists".


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> Not the "rape apologists", the "genocidal murder of half the population as a structural metaphor apologists".


I'm finding that a little difficult to turn into something referring to the real world. Could you just say?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm finding that a little difficult to turn into something referring to the real world. Could you just say?



That's because the whole episode had no reference to the real world.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Okay so that's a "what oh never mind it was just made up Internet bullshit" then.


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Okay so that's a "what oh never mind" then.



It's hardly that cryptic 

It was part of the ones who ended up chanting Kill All Men that were gleefully asking about going "twollin", as my mate retold it.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> It's hardly that cryptic
> 
> It was part of the ones who ended up chanting Kill All Men that were gleefully asking about going "twollin", as my mate retold it.


They deserved it?


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 1, 2013)

revol68 said:


> That's because the whole episode had no reference to the real world.



I sat around the next day with a disparate bunch of anarchos who weren't together at the bookfair. They all were bemused with different scenes they witnessed. 

The twats making a scene sound like Internet anarchos and/or state actors.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Still interested to hear what the longer term effect was.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Still interested to hear what the longer term effect was.



Of what?


----------



## revol68 (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They deserved it?



Deserved what? 

I'm saying that they came up to a person my friend was speaking to and said "are we going trolling", a short time after they got themselves in a shouting match with the Catholic Worker guy and chums.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 1, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Of what?


Global warming


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I'm finding that a little difficult to turn into something referring to the real world. Could you just say?



In practice, it will probably add some pressure on bookfair organisers to establish a "safer spaces" policy.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> In practice, it will probably add some pressure on bookfair organisers to establish a "safer spaces" policy.


I'd guessed something like that yeah.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 1, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Still interested to hear what the longer term effect was.



To early to say, I would think?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Nov 1, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> To early to say, I would think?


Not really IMO, if there's a change it won't be from this.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 2, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Not really IMO, if there's a change it won't be from this.



You've lost me now. Past my bedtime.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 2, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You've lost me now. Past my bedtime.


Coming soon: Fridge & Butchers Present... Gnome Sweet Gnome


----------



## sunnysidedown (Nov 2, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> some of the same people were blowing a gasket on twitter because one of the Novara people said he'd like to get Russell Brand on. The response wasn't "that's a good idea, but it's vital that the interviewer is a feminist who can raise Brand's views on gender while arguing a hard line pro women's liberation point of view". It was a bunch of stuff about how even raising the possibility was "upsetting" people, and listening to him would "hurt us". It then escalated towards an explicit demand for No Platform. There were also rather blunt hints that the Novara dude shouldn't be arguing his point of view on account of his penis.



That was a very interesting interaction, I think it was Butchers (apols if not) who made the _Heathers_ comment on another thread, they played it out impeccably.


----------



## krink (Nov 2, 2013)

just like when 'heathers' was originally mentioned, the above mention reminds me what a canny little film it is. so here's the whole thing;


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

manny-p said:


> Plus did you give the private eye guy the lowdown on what happened at the boot sale?


No, the cartoonist went, talked to people and wrote down their response.

On the Millbank generation of twitter full communists (who really aren't communists), I never understand why _after _they swarm on someone who breaks orthodoxy, _calling them a cunt or telling them to kill themselves in a total group frenzy_, their twitter exchanges between themselves read like this;

_"I just wanted to say that you're amazing & right."

"thank you <3 & all solidarity appreciated so much xxx"_

It all looks like a weird cult from the outside, people in their mid twenties and early thirties treating politics basically like Myspace drama.


----------



## Bun (Nov 3, 2013)

A number do seem genuinely damaged individuals with a pack of self indulgent narcissists feeding off them by proxy. If this really takes hold on the left it will have even less chance of conecting to the outside real world.


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

Bun said:


> A number do seem genuinely damaged individuals with a pack of self indulgent narcissists feeding off them by proxy. If this really takes hold on the left it will have even less chance of conecting to the outside real world.


The Trots really dodged a bullet when they failed to pull significant numbers out of the student movement in 2010.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 3, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> On the Millbank generation of twitter full communists (who really aren't communists), I never understand why _after _they swarm on someone who breaks orthodoxy, _calling them a cunt or telling them to kill themselves in a total group frenzy_, their twitter exchanges between themselves read like this;
> 
> _"I just wanted to say that you're amazing & right."
> 
> ...



libcom?


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

Nice one said:


> libcom?


It makes libcom look like a golden age.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 3, 2013)

There are some great people who came out of the student movement also.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 3, 2013)

Fozzie Bear said:


> There are some great people who came out of the student movement also.


Though TBF some said that about the AYN 

Okay, _no one _said that about the AYN.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 3, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> Though TBF some said that about the AYN
> 
> Okay, _no one _said that about the AYN.


there are some people  who came out of the ayn


----------



## andysays (Nov 3, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> No, the cartoonist went, talked to people and wrote down their response...



and then he threw that away and drew his cartoon based on the most obvious cliche, stereotypical shit he could come up with, eh?


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

andysays said:


> and then he threw that away and drew his cartoon based on the most obvious cliche, stereotypical shit he could come up with, eh?


But people have admitted to saying those things to him "standing outside shops" etc.

Not difficult to find _obvious cliche, stereotypical shit _at the bootfair mind.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 3, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> But people have admitted to saying those things to him "standing outside shops" etc.
> 
> Not difficult to find _obvious cliche, stereotypical shit _at the bootfair mind.



Compared to lots of political events it is remarkably diverse though. I saw very very few stereotypes there.


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Compared to lots of political events it is remarkably diverse though. I saw very very few stereotypes there.


Just like Bronycon.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 3, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Not difficult to find _obvious cliche, stereotypical shit _at the bootfair mind.



For those who are lazy minded may see anarchists as the outgroup. From that position it would be easy to stereotype like what you have just done.

Which brings us to the question, what ingroup do you identify with?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Compared to lots of political events it is remarkably diverse though. I saw very very few stereotypes there.



Rubbish it is was not even slightly diverse - I don't think the honest of the PE cartoonist is in question just the lack of satirical bite and the lack of ability to find the really funny stuff, which was I would argue down to his own liberal politics


----------



## lazyhack (Nov 3, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> what ingroup do you identify with?



Wow!


----------



## kenny g (Nov 3, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Rubbish it is was not even slightly diverse



Many ages, many self defined genders and sexualities, plenty of income disparity, different languages, a range of skin tones. Massive range of poltical beliefs. Seemed pretty diverse to me.


----------



## Nice one (Nov 3, 2013)

kenny g said:


> *plenty of income disparity*



how did you gauge this? Let's be honest the london bookfair has always been a glorified student union bar free-for-all where the arrogant posh boys can go around pretending to be working class irl for day rather than just online.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 3, 2013)

Nice one said:


> Let's be honest the london bookfair has always been a glorified student union bar free-for-all ...


 It hasn't and isn't.


----------



## cesare (Nov 3, 2013)

Nice one said:


> how did you gauge this? Let's be honest the london bookfair has always been a glorified student union bar free-for-all where the arrogant posh boys can go around pretending to be working class irl for day rather than just online.


That'll explain you being a regular feature, then


----------



## revol68 (Nov 3, 2013)

tbf i'm always amazed at how posh english anarchists often are but I don't think they are any posher than say trot groups, though deffo posher than the EDL who are just lumpen.


----------



## Geri (Nov 3, 2013)

Most of the anarchists and Trots I know are working class or lower middle class at most. They are mostly ex Class War or Militant though.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 3, 2013)

most of the anarchists i know, i know through urban, so they're not generally working class.  but the ones i know through real life (i.e. activism) are pretty much all of working class background.  funny old world that.


----------



## tufty79 (Nov 3, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> the ones i know through real life (i.e. activism) are pretty much all of working class background.  funny old world that.



It's been the polar opposite for me


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 3, 2013)

Depends on the "activism". Eco anarcho types are the poshest IME.

I know one with blue blood.


----------



## emanymton (Nov 3, 2013)

Most of the anarchists, I know have come from well of backgrounds but where, downwardly mobile I guess you could call it, at least while they are active. While most of the socialists were from pretty poor backgrounds but where upwardly mobile.


----------



## KarlMarx (Nov 3, 2013)

I would like to go to an anarchist bookfair but at the same time I feel I do not belong.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2013)

KarlMarx said:


> I would like to go to an anarchist bookfair but at the same time I feel I do not belong.


We'll maybe if you hadn't expelled poor old Bakunin from the 1st International...


----------



## krink (Nov 3, 2013)

i'm really surprised when i meet any left/anarcho/green activist who has a regional accent. it's so rare. listen to the chants on any lefty demo anywhere in england and the accent is always the same!


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 3, 2013)

Don't encourage him, it's that dwyer chap. He invented the wolf bagging thing mentioned elsewhere. Shocking stuff. BTW there's a vegetarian option involving cubed Tempeh on a string. Disgusting.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2013)

Dwyer has been to the book fair though, I met him there a few years ago


----------



## Buckaroo (Nov 3, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Dwyer has been to the book fair though, I met him there a few years ago


 Did he have a moustache?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 3, 2013)

No but then it wasn't Movember


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

i was thinking about the whole Kill All Men thing earlier.  when the Ambreenists shouted Kill All Men, did they include women-at-birth men who had transitioned?


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 4, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Wow!



Well this shows either your arrogance or your ignorance.....or both.

Hack, indeed.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

kenny g said:


> Many ages, many self defined genders and sexualities, plenty of income disparity, different languages, a range of skin tones. Massive range of poltical beliefs. Seemed pretty diverse to me.


quite a range of muscle tone too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

el-ahrairah said:


> i was thinking about the whole Kill All Men thing earlier.  when the Ambreenists shouted Kill All Men, did they include women-at-birth men who had transitioned?


which part of 'kill all men' are you having trouble with?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 4, 2013)

krink said:


> i'm really surprised when i meet any left/anarcho/green activist who has a regional accent. it's so rare. listen to the chants on any lefty demo anywhere in england and the accent is always the same!


for regional read provincial.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Nov 4, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> which part of 'kill all men' are you having trouble with?



that would be identity-shaming though, which is a worse crime than anything else, i thought?  i am worried about the inconsistent message i am receiving here.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> watch out bristol, the EDL are on their way to build community cohesion.



No they're not.


----------



## DrRingDing (Nov 5, 2013)

lazyhack said:


> Just like Bronycon.



Just out of interest, what other groups of folk do you find stereotypes in?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2013)

krink said:


> i'm really surprised when i meet any left/anarcho/green activist who has a regional accent. it's so rare. listen to the chants on any lefty demo anywhere in england and the accent is always the same!



why do you assume anarchists are chanting amongst the 'leftys.' i have a very regional accent and i never fucken chant 'narzi scum' cos like many other anarchists we are out and about away from any kettles etc. typical U75 stereotyping as usual. bet theres no middle class wankers on ere is there?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> No they're not.



anti fascist network tweet: 'EDL demo Bristol Dec 7th "postponed". They say new date “soonish” What’s the betting it's never heard of again?'


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 5, 2013)

no surrender? oh go on then!


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 5, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> why do you assume anarchists are chanting amongst the 'leftys.' i have a very regional accent and i never fucken chant 'narzi scum' cos like many other anarchists we are out and about away from any kettles etc. typical U75 stereotyping as usual. bet theres no middle class wankers on ere is there?


Here not ere


----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> why do you assume anarchists are chanting amongst the 'leftys.' i have a very regional accent and i never fucken chant 'narzi scum' cos like many other anarchists we are out and about away from any kettles etc. typical U75 stereotyping as usual. bet theres no middle class wankers on ere is there?



who pissed on your cornflakes?


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 6, 2013)

oh no one, just lazy stereotyping from people who should know better. i am actually trying to make a point that reductionist arguments against anarchists are as futile as any other reductionism.


----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

you need to cheer up.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 6, 2013)

well happy mate. just dont like 'all anarchists are middle class.' it is a stupid  lazy reductionist statement.


----------



## Frances Lengel (Nov 6, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> well happy mate. just dont like 'all anarchists are middle class.' it is a stupid  lazy reductionist statement.



As well as being patently untrue - Some anarchists are upper class.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 6, 2013)




----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

i didn't say that though. 



krink said:


> i'm really surprised when i meet any left/anarcho/green activist who has a regional accent. it's so rare. listen to the chants on any lefty demo anywhere in england and the accent is always the same!


----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> for regional read provincial.



what's the difference? i googled it but couldn't make sense.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

krink said:


> what's the difference? i googled it but couldn't make sense.




there is no difference, people in capital cities call the regions 'provinces' for the lols. At one point Northampton was the seat of the King and capital of England so fuck you London.


----------



## DotCommunist (Nov 6, 2013)

never getting it back mind. Gave cromwell all them boots and breastplates. The aristocracy never forget.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there is no difference, people in capital cities call the regions 'provinces' for the lols. At one point Northampton was the seat of the King and capital of England so fuck you London.


 
SOME people in capital cities. 

I am SICK of people in London being stereotyped in this fashion.

(actually I'm not, I just felt like I had to join in the OUTRAGE here).


----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> typical U75 stereotyping as usual.



isn't that a bit reductionist or something?


----------



## JimW (Nov 6, 2013)

You can always boil it down to something reductionist.


----------



## barney_pig (Nov 6, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> well happy mate. just dont like 'all anarchists are middle class.' it is a stupid  lazy reductionist statement.


The pal of the edlnews crew complaining about lazy reductionism


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2013)

krink said:


> what's the difference? i googled it but couldn't make sense.


when people say 'regional accent' they mean yorkshire or black country or geordie etc. they don't mean london or the south-east. but as you should have worked out london and the south-east is a region itself. so, what you meant is an accent from the provinces - that is, provincial.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there is no difference, people in capital cities call the regions 'provinces' for the lols. At one point Northampton was the seat of the King and capital of England so fuck you London.


there is a difference as i pointed out in my last post.


----------



## krink (Nov 6, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> when people say 'regional accent' they mean yorkshire or black country or geordie etc. they don't mean london or the south-east. but as you should have worked out london and the south-east is a region itself. so, what they mean is an accent from the provinces - that is, provincial.



Right. well, i meant I rarely hear a voice that has enough of an accent so you can tell which part of the country they're from. that includes cockney wankers.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 6, 2013)

krink said:


> Right. well, i meant I rarely hear a voice that has enough of an accent so you can tell which part of the country they're from. that includes cockney wankers.


no, what you meant is you rarely hear a voice that has enough of an accent that YOU can tell what part of the country they're from, which is different. get your lugs cleaned out and the situation may change.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 6, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> there is no difference, people in capital cities call the regions 'provinces' for the lols. At one point Northampton was the seat of the King and capital of England so fuck you London.



1. I have never called the provinces the provinces for the LoLs. 

2. "At one point" being the operative phrase.


----------



## krink (Nov 7, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> no, what you meant is you rarely hear a voice that has enough of an accent that YOU can tell what part of the country they're from, which is different. get your lugs cleaned out and the situation may change.



yes mam.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> The pal of the edlnews crew complaining about lazy reductionism



i hang around with lots of people i don't necessarily agree with politically. i know matt collins and larry o hara and hang around with leftists and anarchists but i dont agree with all they say either.


----------



## manny-p (Nov 7, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i hang around with lots of people i don't necessarily agree with politically. i know matt collins and larry o hara and hang around with leftists and anarchists but i dont agree with all they say either.


edl news are class enemies though. bunch of scumbags.


----------



## malatesta32 (Nov 7, 2013)

bit harsh.


----------



## Nigel Irritable (Nov 9, 2013)

http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/11/513484.html

The bookfair row emerges in Liverpool.


----------



## kenny g (Nov 9, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/11/513484.html
> 
> The bookfair row emerges in Liverpool.



Not sure I can take much more of this drama. I remember last years Anacrisp book fete  thread was about three pages long.

Evidence wise some of that statement on the indymedia page is a bit rich:-

"Then the woman with the blond dreds, made to pick up the large plant pot to the left and I am sure she had the intent to throw it." http://pastebin.com/SwdmkaqX

How the fuck can the witness be sure of someone else's intention? The whole thing reeks of an untold back story. Who is Seamus, that is referred to by one of the women in the mp3?

All this DIY justice by internet and street threats is certainly preferable to SWP secret committees but part of me does think a decent hearing of both sides to this recurring fracas might be a good idea. Who would like to host the event though?

ETA:- This is Seamus, who answers some questions. 

EETA - should have recognised the name http://www.soundthealarm.org.uk/seamus-colligan/

EEETA - The indymedia comment with an interview with Ciaron has an interesting quote:- 



> CIARON: You get better justice from the British state in my experience (eg right to examine evidence, cross examine witnesses). This is a lynch mob approach that will lead us to barbarism. Once you get to barbarism, people will choose fascism or authoritarianism eg. Sharia Courts in Somalia, early Taliban (seminarian) response to the rapist war lord agenda, Provo community policing in West Belfast - all had a popular base as the alternative appeared to be barbarism.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 9, 2013)

Nigel Irritable said:


> http://indymedia.org.uk/en/2013/11/513484.html
> 
> The bookfair row emerges in Liverpool.



I would never trust anyone who refers to an Indymedia "journalist"


----------



## barney_pig (Nov 9, 2013)

Looks like Indymedia has appointed itself the new redwatch


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## chilango (Nov 9, 2013)

pathetic.


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## DrRingDing (Nov 9, 2013)

barney_pig said:


> Looks like Indymedia has appointed itself the new redwatch



What the fuck are they doing making that a feature?


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## disco_dave_2000 (Nov 11, 2013)

bang out of order


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## DrRingDing (Nov 11, 2013)

Is anyone here involved with Indymedia?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 11, 2013)

DrRingDing said:


> Is anyone here prepared to admit to being involved with Indymedia?


corrected for you


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## Larry O'Hara (Dec 13, 2013)

malatesta32 said:


> i hang around with lots of people i don't necessarily agree with politically. i know matt collins and larry o hara and hang around with leftists and anarchists but i dont agree with all they say either.


 
careful use of language: hows the book coming along?


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## malatesta32 (Dec 14, 2013)

AK said it should be out next autumn!!! finished it 6 months ago but just have to add robinsons defection and the collapse of the EDL. cheers L!


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