# The decline of Brixton's street markets - can more be done to encourage restaurants to use them?



## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> When I look at the Brixton news thread, I like to see it have at least a page per day of the month. So today I'm sad to see it running at 10 pages on the 11th of the month. When the month ends and we haven't reached 31 pages like last month it gets my following month off to a bad start.
> 
> September on the other hand was a cracker.
> As you were.


This may liven it up a bit: I was talking to a couple of Electric Avenue traders earlier today and they were saying that they're really struggling now as barely any of the nu-restaurants are buying from them, despite the traders offering competitive prices. 

Duck Egg was cited as one that actually does use market-sourced produce as opposed to the ones that say they do.


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## Crispy (Nov 10, 2014)

IIRC the issue is that the market doesn't operate at the hours when the restaurants need to get their shopping. There needs to be some sort of advance order and delivery system to make it work.


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

Crispy said:


> IIRC the issue is that the market doesn't operate at the hours when the restaurants need to get their shopping. There needs to be some sort of advance order and delivery system to make it work.


What time do they need their shopping? It's not like a lot of them open at the crack of dawn.


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## Crispy (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> What time do they need their shopping? It's not like a lot of them open at the crack of dawn.


Dunno, just hazily IIRC-ing from the last time this was discussed...


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## leanderman (Nov 10, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Dunno, just hazily IIRC-ing from the last time this was discussed...



One problem is the opening hours not matching those of households. Not sure what can be done about that.


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

leanderman said:


> One problem is the opening hours not matching those of households. Not sure what can be done about that.


Well maybe, but that's a different argument to the one about nu-restaurants apparently not using the markets (while having promotional material that suggests that they do).

That said, maybe the recent gentrification means that there's less locals around in the day, with many of the nu-residents having jobs in the City or whatever*.

*this is a top of my head theory so probably needs work


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## leanderman (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> Well maybe, but that's a different argument.



Of course - but it is a potential avenue for extra sales, especially with the added pressure of online supermarkets.


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## Rushy (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> Well maybe, but that's a different argument to the one about nu-restaurants apparently not using the markets (while having promotional material that suggests that they do).


Is  this allegation accompanied by any specifics or are we being treated to a generous spreading of innuendo jam du villaaaage?


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## Mr Retro (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> Well maybe, but that's a different argument to the one about nu-restaurants apparently not using the markets (while having promotional material that suggests that they do).


I'm coming from a position of relative ignorance but I don't see why restaurants wouldn't want to buy from the market. Surely they are not getting trade prices so much cheaper elsewhere that it makes sense to travel outside the market? 

It's true quality can be variable in the market, maybe that's the reason?


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Is  this allegation accompanied by any specifics or are we being treated to a generous spreading of innuendo jam du villaaaage?


It is not an "allegation" and I haven't mentioned the Village. There's new restaurants all over central Brixton. However, I hope to be doing a feature on one of the stall holders in the near future and you'll be free to try disagree with what he says.


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm coming from a position of relative ignorance but I don't see why restaurants wouldn't want to buy from the market. Surely they are not getting trade prices so much cheaper elsewhere that it makes sense to travel outside the market?
> 
> It's true quality can be variable in the market, maybe that's the reason?


If that was the case, why would Duck Egg continue to buy their produce from the street traders?


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## Rushy (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> It is not an "allegation" and I haven't mentioned the Village. There's new restaurants all over central Brixton. However, I hope to be doing a feature on one of the stall holders in the near future and you'll be free to try disagree with what he says.


 So no one has alleged that restaurants are telling customers that they source ingredients from the market when they don't?


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

Rushy said:


> So no one has alleged that restaurants are telling customers that they source ingredients from the market when they don't?









I appear to have stepped into Rushy's fantasy version of Crown Court.


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## Ms T (Nov 10, 2014)

Restaurants generally buy wholesale, I would have thought.


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## Rushy (Nov 10, 2014)

editor said:


> I appear to have stepped into Rushy's fantasy version of Crown Court.



I prefer the court of Judge Judy. "If it doesn't make sense, it usually isn't true".


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## teuchter (Nov 10, 2014)

It would be good if we could get Judge Judy in as guest moderator of the Brixton thread. I don't know what her fees are but I'm willing to put in at least £5.


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## editor (Nov 10, 2014)

teuchter said:


> It would be good if we could get Judge Judy in as guest moderator of the Brixton thread. I don't know what her fees are but I'm willing to put in at least £5.


Send it in and I'll see what I can do for you.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> If that was the case, why would Duck Egg continue to buy their produce from the street traders?


Fair point. I don't know, maybe Duck Egg shop around more, maybe they have put the effort into finding the best and most consistent supply and made a good agreement with those suppliers? The point on variable quality is true though and maybe it puts some (most) off.

For me I don't think it matters where they _claim_ to get their produce from. The point is _why_ they don't get it from the market? It should be such an obvious choice. 

If I was involved in some way I would be proactively talking to restaurants and the market traders trying to organize a mutually beneficial arrangement. I would try to sort out some sort of agreement where the market and the restaurants meet halfway, the restaurants use the market and the market guarantee supply and quality and comparative costs. Everybody wins.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

Where in the market  does one purchase a duck egg when one needs one?


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> However, I hope to be doing a feature on one of the stall holders in the near future and you'll be free to try disagree with what he says.



Looking forward to that. I know you are busy enough but it would be great to find a restaurant that doesn't buy from the market and ask why, even if it was anonymously, to get the other side like.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Restaurants generally buy wholesale, I would have thought.


Market traders will give a discount to the trade. Would it still be much cheaper to buy wholesale? I just don't know the answer.


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## Ms T (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Market traders will give a discount to the trade. Would it still be much cheaper to buy wholesale? I just don't know the answer.


I would have thought so. It's one more person who has to make a profit, innit?


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## ska invita (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Where in the market  does one purchase a duck egg when one needs one?


theyre in the hamper behind the veuve click to the right of the white stilton stand


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair point. I don't know, maybe Duck Egg shop around more, maybe they have put the effort into finding the best and most consistent supply and made a good agreement with those suppliers? The point on variable quality is true though and maybe it puts some (most) off.
> 
> For me I don't think it matters where they _claim_ to get their produce from. The point is _why_ they don't get it from the market? It should be such an obvious choice.
> 
> If I was involved in some way I would be proactively talking to restaurants and the market traders trying to organize a mutually beneficial arrangement. I would try to sort out some sort of agreement where the market and the restaurants meet halfway, the restaurants use the market and the market guarantee supply and quality and comparative costs. Everybody wins.


Many of the points have been discussed one here from time to time. The reasons aren’t very exciting. Reliability of stock, consistency of quality, variety (e.g. for all the fruit and veg stalls, why isn’t there an obvious organic vendor?), credit facilities, payment facilities, documentation (e.g. receipts), being able to get enough of what you need from one place, delivery services. There are plenty of businesses set up to provide catering supplies for small businesses – they understand the business requirements and make themselves as useful as possible. If traders want a larger part of that market – and why wouldn’t they? – they need to understand their potential customers and their needs. And then meet them.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm coming from a position of relative ignorance but I don't see why restaurants wouldn't want to buy from the market. Surely they are not getting trade prices so much cheaper elsewhere that it makes sense to travel outside the market?



Restaurants buy from the wholesaler, like the market trader.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Market traders will give a discount to the trade. Would it still be much cheaper to buy wholesale? I just don't know the answer.


The trader I spoke to said that they were able to match the prices restaurants were paying from other suppliers.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> The trader I spoke to said that they were able to match the prices restaurants were paying from other suppliers.


That's a good start but there are lots of businesses who could presumably do that. Did they have a view on why they were not being used?


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> why isn’t there an obvious organic vendor?



Is Esme still around, opposite Rosie's cafe?


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## teuchter (Nov 11, 2014)

Do old-Brixton pubs and restaurants buy their supplies from outside of the market or is it only nu-Brixton establishments?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair point. I don't know, maybe Duck Egg shop around more, maybe they have put the effort into finding the best and most consistent supply and made a good agreement with those suppliers? The point on variable quality is true though and maybe it puts some (most) off.


I'm not entirely convinced of this 'variable quality' claim when you're dealing with smaller, non-upmarket restaurants - I've worked in several food outlets and the fruit and veg coming in from suppliers every day was always a bit variable. 

More to the point, why would a reasonable successful venture like Duck Egg take the risk if the quality wasn't good enough? (they always buy from one market supplier, by the way).



Mr Retro said:


> For me I don't think it matters where they _claim_ to get their produce from. The point is _why_ they don't get it from the market? It should be such an obvious choice.
> 
> If I was involved in some way I would be proactively talking to restaurants and the market traders trying to organize a mutually beneficial arrangement. I would try to sort out some sort of agreement where the market and the restaurants meet halfway, the restaurants use the market and the market guarantee supply and quality and comparative costs. Everybody wins.


Well, exactly. There's no shortage of restaurants giving the impression that they buy from market (just do a search for 'locally sourced,' 'sourced from local markets'  etc).

Would be great if some positive ideas were discussed here, rather than the thread turn into another point-scoring fest.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> That's a good start but there are lots of businesses who could presumably do that. Did they have a view on why they were not being used?


I shall ask him but my guess will be that some of the new restaurants have had no local connections so are continuing to use whatever suppliers they used in the past. Or maybe it's more convenient to do it online rather than have to deal with market traders.


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## colacubes (Nov 11, 2014)

Tbf 'locally sourced' and 'sourced from local markets' could include New Covent Garden for fruit and veg which is the local wholesale market.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

colacubes said:


> Tbf 'locally sourced' and 'sourced from local markets' could include New Covent Garden for fruit and veg which is the local wholesale market.


I don't think I'm the only one who would assume 'local markets' to mean the ones in the actually locality rather than the mega one over three miles away.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> I shall ask him but my guess will be that some of the new restaurants have had no local connections so are continuing to use whatever suppliers they used in the past. Or maybe it's more convenient to do it online rather than have to deal with market traders.


If that is the case it would be worth asking why he thinks they should drop a relationship which is working for them?

When I was sourcing materials for construction it took ages to find a consistently reliable supplier at a reasonable price. One I had them I needed to be given a very good reason to change. I only really changed when I felt service standards were dropping.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> If that is the case it would be worth asking why he thinks they should drop a relationship which is working for them?


Ultimately it boils down to whether the new restaurants have much of an interest in working with the street markets and playing their part on keeping a real local market alive.

I really fear for the future of some of the market traders.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> I shall ask him but my guess will be that some of the new restaurants have had no local connections so are continuing to use whatever suppliers they used in the past. Or maybe it's more convenient to do it online rather than have to deal with market traders.



And maybe they've already developed a good relationship with a wholesaler, who gives them an affordable, reliable service and a line of credit and the occasional freebie thrown in, so changing suppliers would be equally risky? The market is retail not wholesale.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Ultimately it boils down to whether the new restaurants have much of an interest in working with the street markets and playing their part on keeping a real local market alive.
> 
> I really fear for the future of some of the market traders.



I think you're conflating two issues. 

Aren't you asking a business model to pay more to buy it's produce to support a supply chain that's not set up to serve that business model!


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> I think you're conflating two issues.
> 
> Aren't you asking a business model to pay more to buy it's produce to support a supply chain that's not set up to serve that business model!


Perhaps you missed the bit where the trader said that they _could match the prices_ they're paying from other suppliers?


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Perhaps you missed the bit where the trader said that they _could match the prices_ they're paying from other suppliers?



Rushy dealt with that with this sentence:

"If that is the case it would be worth asking why he thinks they should drop a relationship which is working for them"?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Rushy dealt with that with this sentence:
> 
> "If that is the case it would be worth asking why he thinks they should drop a relationship which is working for them"?


Then wouldn't it be great if some sort of initiative was set up - perhaps by our wonderful co-op council - to make it easier for them to buy off the local traders, and thus keep an essential part of Brixton's culture alive? And wouldn't such an initiative be helped if locals expressed an interest in supporting such a thing?

Sad to say, there doesn't seem a lot of enthusiasm here for that, though.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Then wouldn't it be great if some sort of initiative was set up - perhaps by our wonderful co-op council - to make it easier for them to buy off the local traders, and thus keep an essential part of Brixton's culture alive? And wouldn't such an initiative be helped if locals expressed an interest in supporting such a thing?



Local traders get there stuff from wholesalers, why should they act as middlemen to the restaurants which also get there stuff from wholesalers? Restaurants already have a reliable supply chain in place.  Plus, what about the specialist ingredients these restaurants use?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Local traders get there stuff from wholesalers, why should they act as middlemen to the restaurants which also get there stuff from wholesalers? Restaurants already have a reliable supply chain in place.  Plus, what about the specialist ingredients these restaurants use?


How do you know all these FACTS? Have you inside knowledge? And how do you think Duck Egg manages to buy locally if it's as difficult as you are suggesting?


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Perhaps you missed the bit where the trader said that they _could match the prices_ they're paying from other suppliers?



So you're suggesting in addition to the local New Cov Gdn Market, a sub holding wholesale market should be set up in Brixton to reduce the 3 miles of travel from Brixton to Nine Elms? 

As 299 old timer has pointed out, they're buying from the same wholesaler. If Brixton Mkt traders buy from wholesalers at the same prices as restaurants all they're going to do is increase turnover, and that means that they'll have additional storage costs and time spent managing the zero profit trade to restaurants which takes them away from selling produce with a mark up to people like you and me.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

"FACTS"
Coming from Mr. Innuendo that's mighty grand.
Yes, I know someone in the trade.
If Duck Egg buys locally that's fine, if it suits there business model.


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## T & P (Nov 11, 2014)

After all the mocking and derision the owners of Off the Cuff got in the other thread when they said that they were trying to do the right thing and engage with the local community by sourcing their cheeses locally, perhaps Urban now owes them a collective apology.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> 299 old timer has pointed out, they're buying from the same wholesaler


And you know this to be true? How? And which one is it?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

T & P said:


> After all the mocking and derision the owners of Off the Cuff got in the other thread when they said that they were trying to do the right thing and engage with the local community by sourcing their cheeses locally, perhaps Urban now owes them a collective apology.


You don't 'engage with the local community' by opening up an exclusive £100/year private members club.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> If Duck Egg buys locally that's fine, if it suits there business model.


So it's entirely possible to run a restaurant by shopping locally, and help support the market then. 

Given that the street traders are struggling to survive, do you think it would be good to have an initiative to encourage other restaurants to shop from the local market too? What ideas do you have to sustain their future?

Or aren't you that bothered if the fruit and veg stalls in the market survive or not?


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Who did you use?


Initially I was fairly broadly spread but developed a really good relationship with a guy at Fulham timber. Their reliability was hugely important to my business. When he left the service deteriorated hugely so I tendered out and moved to Acrelane. I also used Screwfix a lot for smaller stuff  because you could order at 6pm and have a delivery before 10 the next day. 

Price was important but some places didn't think twice about, for example,  sending out 3x2s which were not fit for purpose. Or a "first thing" delivery would turn up late afternoon, screwing up plans . They just didn't "get" their role in my  business.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> So it's entirely possible to run a restaurant by shopping locally, and help support the market then.
> Given that the street traders are struggling to survive, do you think it would be good to have an initiative to encourage other restaurants to shop from the local market too? What ideas do you have to sustain their future?
> Or aren't you that bothered if the fruit and veg stalls in the market survive or not?



It depends on the business model of each restaurant.If I'm running a Tapas bar I'll need those Spanish potatoes to make patatas bravas. Can the market supply me? I need a quality mozzarella for my pizzas, can the market supply me?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> It depends on the business model of each restaurant.If I'm running a Tapas bar I'll need those Spanish potatoes to make patatas bravas. Can the market supply me? I need a quality mozzarella for my pizzas, can the market supply me?


Yes, those are the questions that have to be asked although I'm not sure New Covent Garden does a lot of mozzarella. So, have you any positive ideas that might help secure the market's future?


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, those are the questions that have to be asked although I'm not sure New Covent Garden does a lot of mozzarella.



http://www.vincenzoltd.co.uk/mozzarella.htm


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, those are the questions that have to be asked although I'm not sure New Covent Garden does a lot of mozzarella. So, have you any positive ideas that might help secure the market's future?



Just a thought, based on observation:
The market has been going downhill for years. I'd place particular emphasis on the role of the high street supermarket for the market's decline, not "nu" restaurants.


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## Crispy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, those are the questions that have to be asked although I'm not sure New Covent Garden does a lot of mozzarella. So, have you any positive ideas that might help secure the market's future?


Late opening/closing days to serve evening demand.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Just a thought, based on observation:
> The market has been going downhill for years. I'd place particular emphasis on the role of the high street supermarket for the market's decline, not "nu" restaurants.


Supermarkets have certainly paid a role although there's been supermarkets right next to the market for many, many years.


snowy_again said:


> http://www.vincenzoltd.co.uk/mozzarella.htm


So a different wholesaler then.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Late opening/closing days to serve evening demand.


Do you think that there would be sufficient demand? It would be tough for the traders though, given that they're usually family run concerns that have to get up very early indeed.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

The implication seems to be that the arrival of new restaurants is threatening the market by not placing new business with then. Is it not really a failure of the traders to adapt and take advantage of the opportunity that these new businesses present?  If indeed some are  not doing so already?


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Supermarkets have certainly paid a role although there's been supermarkets right next to the market for many, many years.



Such as? That crappy Tesco down the end of Electric Avenue? What else was there right next to the market in the late 70s/80s? M&S?


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Late opening/closing days to serve evening demand.



This... Possibility of delivery, recipe boxes. Adapting to a changing customer base


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

You're doing this thing again where you posit a conversation you've had in a pub that points the finger of blame to new people for a non related issue (in this case the demise of selling Fruit and Veg from stalls). When people unpick the rationale of the argument and your resolution and point out from experience that

A) it may not be economically viable or suitable,
B) if it was that simple, and financially viable someone would have done it already; or
C) logistically isn't that feasible (the items Duck Egg buys for example are going to be wildly different from Mama Lan)

You then get your back up, and accuse people of 'not caring' and seem to suggest that we want to actively cause the demise of an existing retail fruit & veg market.  It feels disingenuous. I shop at Brixton Mkt every week. I shop at the HH grocers, despite knowing its more expensive than elsewhere because I want to support my local shops. 

If the street market is struggling to survive, it's not the fault of your disliked 'nu-businesses'. It's down to change in people's shopping and eating habits (the reduction in regularly bought fresh fruit & veg over bulk supermarket purchases) car parking, public transport access, small supermarkets growth etc. etc. a whole heap of reasons, not a small number of food businesses. Some of them have adapted and market themselves towards the Celebrity Chef / Food Porn theme, others don't. 

20 or so restaurants buying food with very little profit margin from a market trader isn't going to be an answer to the change in the wider public's buying habits. 
What you're proposing is potentially in danger of making them less viable and at risk of losing money – the maths, investment required and practicalities just don’t seem to stand up.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

I would see the market traders do what they are good at, sourcing and supplying ingredients. The restaurants do what they do, preparing and cooking them. Hopefully both benefit. 

Surely there is a cost for the restaurant to go and find and transport ingredients? So it must cost them more to get ingredients than a trader. What if they paid the difference to a trader and have the ingredients on your doorstep each day?  

Maybe it's not possible and I am naive but unless there is some positivity and attempts made to help nothing will happen. In the meantime the markets dies by degrees


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Just a thought, based on observation:
> The market has been going downhill for years. I'd place particular emphasis on the role of the high street supermarket for the market's decline, not "nu" restaurants.


Nobody would argue that point. Why not try to address the decline by entering into a mutually beneficial agreement with businesses who share the same area?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Such as? That crappy Tesco down the end of Electric Avenue? What else was there right next to the market in the late 70s/80s? M&S?


Iceland has been there for years as has M&S, then there was the Kwik Save/Tesco in Pope's Road and the brief super cheap supermarket where Joy was, amongst others.


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yes, those are the questions that have to be asked although I'm not sure New Covent Garden does a lot of mozzarella. So, have you any positive ideas that might help secure the market's future?



Organic veg boxes delivered locally (cf. Abel & Cole).


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The implication seems to be that the arrival of new restaurants is threatening the market by not placing new business with then. Is it not really a failure of the traders to adapt and take advantage of the opportunity that these new businesses present?  If indeed some are  not doing so already?


I think this is a good point. Maybe all it needs is somebody to bring both parties together to help is a way to go? Sometimes people need help to realize they have to change how they do things. Nobody is comfortable with change.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> You're doing this thing again where you posit a conversation you've had in a pub that points the finger of blame to new people for a non related issue (in this case the demise of selling Fruit and Veg from stalls).


It would help your case if you didn't start off with a blatant lie. I didn't have a "conversation in a pub" and far from "pointing the finger of blame to new people," I simply related what was told to me.

I posted it up because I am concerned about the market's future and it's something I care very much about. I think there may be ways some of the new businesses could be encouraged to use the markets more, and that's something I'd like to talk about. 

So do you have any actual positive ideas that may help the market survive or are you more interested in having a point-scoring argument?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Winot said:


> Organic veg boxes delivered locally (cf. Abel & Cole).


Thank you. That would see a good idea. I get the feeling that some of the old school market traders could maybe use some help in adjusting the business model of nu-Brixton. Maybe we could collectively throw up some ideas here, and maybe some may even be worth forwarding on...


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Maybe all it needs is somebody to bring both parties together to help is a way to go? Sometimes people need help to realize they have to change how they do things. Nobody is comfortable with change.


Yes, that's what I was hoping to get at.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I would see the market traders do what they are good at, sourcing and supplying ingredients. The restaurants do what they do, preparing and cooking them. Hopefully both benefit.



So does a wholesaler. It's 15 mins to New Covent Garden which inevitably will have *more *choice at the *same *price.


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Thank you. That would see a good idea. I get the feeling that some of the old school market traders could maybe use some help in adjusting *the business model of nu-Brixton*. Maybe we could collectively throw up some ideas here, and maybe some may even be worth forwarding on...



Hey! I've been here almost 20 years I'll have you know!


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> So, have you any positive ideas that might help secure the market's future?



How about "olde" restaurants buy wholesale from market traders? If it seems that those traders are willing to put the extra leg work in for no extra cost, as you suggest above, why has no-one jumped upon this excellent business opportunity?
The market has been going downhill from late 80s on, from my ragged memory. Particularly distressing was the lack of genuinely fresh local produce. Farmers markets have helped partially fill that void at least.
Ask yourself why customers don't use it as much in the past, and what are the traders doing about it, rather than somehow forge a disingenuous link between new local business and market decline.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

I would cancel my Riverford weekly delivery if the market could offer something similar at around the same price, I'd even be happy to pay a premium to help support the market. 

Ideas seem to float around (like the bike delivery), but nothing comes to fruition.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Where in the market  does one purchase a duck egg when one needs one?


Exactly, I can't imaging much of "duck eggs" produce comes from Brixton. Maybe a bit of veg or the tea bags but certainly not the meats/eggs which make up the majority of the dishes. I found duck egg to be expensive for a basic fry up that's dressed up as some sort of artisan feast.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm surprised at the negativity here. People are only throwing around ideas. They might be totally wrong ones but at least they are an attempt to be positive. 

I agree about the late opening, what of as part of helping to increase sales the market stall holders agreed to open late on say Thursday? What if the council got behind it and helped with an advertising campaign? 

It might be a shit idea and bomb. It might be so good that the market finds they need to open Tuesday late too to cater for demand. But it's trying to do something at least.


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## tompound (Nov 11, 2014)

This is an interesting discussion, thanks for highlighting this Ed. The Brixton Pound has been looking at this for a while, and trying to encourage the businesses and restaurants that 'could' source from the local market to do so. However it hasn't been a formal programme of ours and perhaps that's what we need to do. 

We are also hopeful that we'll soon be setting up buying groups, primarily for people on low-incomes but potentially available to all, whereby people within close proximity can bulk order directly from the markets and pay a preferential rate. 

As others have alluded to though, it's not just the restaurants that could do more. 90% of the food spend by households in Lambeth goes to supermarkets. Just 10% of that redirected towards local markets would have a massive impact on Brixton's economy. Obviously a core of people do shop at the market, however I get the impression that many people, particularly those who are relatively new in town, don't do so not out of lack of interest in supporting the local economy, but because they are unaware of what is on offer in the markets. Again, something to address, and good to be openly discussed.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

tompound said:


> This is an interesting discussion, thanks for highlighting this Ed. The Brixton Pound has been looking at this for a while, and trying to encourage the businesses and restaurants that 'could' source from the local market to do so. However it hasn't been a formal programme of ours and perhaps that's what we need to do.
> 
> We are also hopeful that we'll soon be setting up buying groups, primarily for people on low-incomes but potentially available to all, whereby people within close proximity can bulk order directly from the markets and pay a preferential rate.
> 
> As others have alluded to though, it's not just the restaurants that could do more. 90% of the food spend by households in Lambeth goes to supermarkets. Just 10% of that redirected towards local markets would have a massive impact on Brixton's economy. Obviously a core of people do shop at the market, however I get the impression that many people, particularly those who are relatively new in town, don't do so not out of lack of interest in supporting the local economy, but because they are unaware of what is on offer in the markets. Again, something to address, and good to be openly discussed.


I'm happy to meet up and throw around a few ideas too if you think they may prove useful. 

I have some thoughts that I think may help...


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> I'm surprised at the negativity here. People are only throwing around ideas. They might be totally wrong ones but at least they are an attempt to be positive.


Yep. I couldn't agree more and it's rather depressing.


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## aussw9 (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yep. I couldn't agree more and it's rather depressing.



I think if the original question/issue had been phrased differently, there may have been a different response.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

So: 

Bike Delivery
Veg Boxes 
Flexible Market Hours 
Bidding for the High St. / Market Devt Funds to promote the market use 
Bulk / Communal purchasing / Buying groups 
*Changing public Supermarket habits (and this seems to be the key one if 90% of Lambeth Food spend goes to supermarkets). *


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> it's rather depressing.



Not really. As a shopper on the hunt for fresh veg and fruit at an affordable price I don't want to purchase tired looking goods. That's why I prefer the farmer coming to town and cutting out the middleman.
Perhaps I've been spoilt by markets abroad where produce is cheap and fresh.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Not really. As a shopper on the hunt for fresh veg and fruit at an affordable price I don't want to purchase tired looking goods.


What's this 'tired goods' slur? I have no problem finding excellent fruit and veg from the market when I go shopping.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> I think if the original question/issue had been phrased differently, there may have been a different response.


Here is the original post. It simply puts across the point that was made to me by the traders. 





editor said:


> This may liven it up a bit: I was talking to a couple of Electric Avenue traders earlier today and they were saying that they're really struggling now as barely any of the nu-restaurants are buying from them, despite the traders offering competitive prices.
> 
> Duck Egg was cited as one that actually does use market-sourced produce as opposed to the ones that say they do.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Yep. I couldn't agree more and it's rather depressing.



Perhaps I can politely suggest not starting it off as a issue related to 'nu-brixton restaurants' and said more generally 'How can we make the Brixton fruit & veg markets better and attractive to local people', that way you probably would have got a more constructive response.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> What's this 'tired goods' slur? I have no problem finding excellent fruit and veg from the market when I go shopping.



Green beans that have seen better days, same with aubergines, peppers, cauliflowers, lemons, you name it. If your post is accurate perhaps there is an improvement.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

Anyway, as Tuesday morning click bait, it's certainly worked.


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## tompound (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm happy to meet up and throw around a few ideas too if you think they may prove useful.
> 
> I have some thoughts that I think may help...



Sounds good to me!


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## Crispy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Do you think that there would be sufficient demand? It would be tough for the traders though, given that they're usually family run concerns that have to get up very early indeed.


My homebound commute goes past the market. If I'm bang on time leaving work, I go past before 6pm and can still pick stuff up. Otherwise I go to Sainsbury's on Water Lane. Just another hour would make a difference.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Anyway, as Tuesday morning click bait, it's certainly worked.


It's actually something I care about rather passionately. I've grown to know some of the traders very well over the years and I think Brixton would be much the worse if they disappear.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> What's this 'tired goods' slur? I have no problem finding excellent fruit and veg from the market when I go shopping.



When I used to use the market very regularly, I tended to buy day by day as the quality/shelf life of the market fruit and veg wasn't as good as supermarkets/veg boxes. Perhaps that has changed now, but I'd often see quite tired/old looking veg in the market.


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## aussw9 (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> What's this 'tired goods' slur? I have no problem finding excellent fruit and veg from the market when I go shopping.





shakespearegirl said:


> When I used to use the market very regularly, I tended to buy day by day as the quality/shelf life of the market fruit and veg wasn't as good as supermarkets/veg boxes. Perhaps that has changed now, but I'd often see quite tired/old looking veg in the market.



I shop at the market at least once a week and have the same issue. A lot of searching is needed to find what you're after. 

On that note, the older traders see me there more often than years gone by as I purchase quite a bit after visiting a 'nu-brixton' establishment.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> What's this 'tired goods' slur? I have no problem finding excellent fruit and veg from the market when I go shopping.


I have found it increasingly harder to find fruit/veg that isn't on the turn or running out of shelf life. It's okay if you need small amounts or bits and pieces,Not all people have the time to go to market every couple of days and that's the only way i have found (most) London markets to be of any use. I must add that the big supermarkets quality in fruit and veg sometimes is no better but more expensive.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> It's actually something I care about rather passionately. I've grown to know some of the traders very well over the years and I think Brixton would be much the worse if they disappear.



Then please start it as a new thread, rather than a conversation in the Rumours thread that will be locked in 20 days time.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Then please start it as a new thread, rather than a conversation in the Rumours thread that will be locked in 20 days time.



A dedicated thread is a really good idea. I'm a supporter of the market both old and nu, but all involved (stallholders, council, restaurants, residents new and old) need to help preserve it and help it become something that is more viable.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> A dedicated thread is a really good idea. I'm a supporter of the market both old and nu, but all involved (stallholders, council, restaurants, residents new and old) need to help preserve it and help it become something that is more viable.


Yep, I'll get on it after lunch (mainly made from ingredients from the street market!)


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## aussw9 (Nov 11, 2014)

I'm still not sure how the new traders not purchasing from retail outlets has had a negative effect on the electric avenue retail traders?

The question has been asked, what more established Brixton Businesses purchase from the current market holders? Why have they not been singled out too?

If we are to have a serious discussion about this then we need to look at how the current traders can improve and change their business so they can continue to service the community for years to come rather then blame a certain section of local businesses for not propping up others at a risk to their own livelihoods.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> I'm still not sure how the new traders not purchasing from retail outlets has had a negative effect on the electric avenue retail traders?
> 
> The question has been asked, what more established Brixton Businesses purchase from the current market holders? Why have they not been singled out too?
> 
> If we are to have a serious discussion about this then we need to look at how the current traders can improve and change their business so they can continue to service the community for years to come rather then blame a certain section of local businesses for not propping up others at a risk to their own livelihoods.



Indeed, how many of them use 3663 and the like?


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## Ms T (Nov 11, 2014)

I think a lot of people who prefer to buy their veg from a market now use the Sunday Farmer's Market. The produce there is seasonal, and generally a lot fresher as it is grown in Lincs/Kent.  There's certainly not much left by closing time. I have also found that a lot of my preferred Brixton market vendors have gone/retired -- eg 2 of the ones that used to be on Pope's Rd.

Or they go to Nour, which is open late (I shop there, but the quality is very variable). I have also seen people pay top dollar for herbs in particular from the Farmer's Market, when they could buy a massive bunch for half the price from Nour.

Opening hours are definitely a factor. Most people work now and are not able to shop during the day.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> I'm still not sure how the new traders not purchasing from retail outlets has had a negative effect on the electric avenue retail traders?
> 
> The question has been asked, what more established Brixton Businesses purchase from the current market holders? Why have they not been singled out too?



This point has become a bit muddled up. I think the initial point was newer restaurants are claiming to use the market to buy their produce and trying to get brownie points for doing so, when in fact the counter claim is they buy no produce from the market.

Going forward it doesn't matter who buys from the market once more people do. I don't like though if people claim they are buying from the market when they are not, weather they are new, old or indifferent.


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## Ms T (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> This point has become a bit muddled up. I think the initial point was newer restaurants are claiming to use the market to buy their produce and trying to get brownie points for doing so, when in fact the counter claim is they buy no produce from the market.
> 
> Going forward it doesn't matter who buys from the market once more people do. I don't like though if people claim they are buying from the market when they are not, weather they are new, old or indifferent.


Which restaurants are claiming this?


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Which restaurants are claiming this?


Read back to the editors original claim a few pages back. I personally am not claiming any do. I'm clarifying the point, which as I say seems to have become misunderstood in the back and forward.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

Popping this food link here as well as the general thread: 
http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/farming-and-food/local-foods/item/download/2096


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Which restaurants are claiming this?


Several have done so in the the past - have a Google. I don't know whether they do or they don't, but Honest Burgers were one. 

Others regularly employ rather vague phrases like "sourced from local markets" in press releases that often gush about the 'Brixtoness' of everything, which - I would suggest - rather strongly gives the impression that they've come from the nearby street markets.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Popping this food link here as well as the general thread:
> http://www.cpre.org.uk/resources/farming-and-food/local-foods/item/download/2096


What is it please? It's just a link to a PDF download.


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## Crispy (Nov 11, 2014)

Surely the issue is bigger than just encouraging restaurants to use the market? It's primarily a retail market, not wholesale.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

it's an evaluation report from teh Campaign to Protect Rural England on the changes in food production and shopping across the UK. Not Brixton specific, but outlines definitions of how 'food webs' can be developed and supported.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Surely the issue is bigger than just encouraging restaurants to use the market? It's primarily a retail market, not wholesale.


Sure, but it's just one of the issues that could be addressed.


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## Ms T (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Several have done so in the the past - have a Google. I don't know whether they do or they don't, but Honest Burgers were one.
> 
> Others regularly employ rather vague phrases like "sourced from local markets" in press releases that often gush about the 'Brixtoness' of everything, which - I would suggest - rather strongly gives the impression that they've come from the nearby street markets.


Honest Burgers always said they sourced their meat from the Ginger Pig. I don't recall any other claim. Cornercopia made a point of using local suppliers and I regularly see the owner in local stores.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Honest Burgers always said they sourced their meat from the Ginger Pig. I don't recall any other claim. Cornercopia made a point of using local suppliers and I regularly see the owner in local stores.


Pretty sure their menus said "market vegetables," you know.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

How near is nearby?

100 metres, 1 mile, 3 miles, 5 miles. You'd be hard pushed to get fish from that close. 

And what's more important? 

The local Brixton cogs in a supply chain or the food miles the produce has travelled?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

I've no idea if they use vegetables from the market or not but their descriptions seem to change.


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## tompound (Nov 11, 2014)

Lots of restaurants might struggle to get their main ingredients exclusively from local market traders, however condiments, fruit and veg, tinned items, and even things like cleaning products are all available very cheaply (this applies to household shoppers as well of course).

For household shoppers, opening hours will be an issue if you work during the day. Nour closes at 7pm and is generally among the last ones open. So it's not impossible to go there after work - I wonder how many people get off the tube at 6pm and go straight into the Sainsburys? I still don't think it's just a case of opening hours though. There is a knowledge gap in terms of what is available (and from which stores), and I think there is a cultural divide too. We've been reared on crap food from supermarkets, the way that the food is branded/marketed etc. Farmers markets seem like a bridge to those who are attracted to shopping 'locally', but who are perhaps a bit intimidated to shop somewhere they don't know their way around.


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> I've no idea if they use vegetables from the market or not but their descriptions seem to change.
> 
> View attachment 63638



Was the lower photo earlier or later? The claim seems pretty clear that they are using vegetables from Brixton Village.  If they aren't, it's a straightforward lie.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> The question has been asked, what more established Brixton Businesses purchase from the current market holders? Why have they not been singled out too?



Yes, the original post holds no credibility until it is shown that a great many established businesses do buy regularly from the market.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> I'm still not sure how the new traders not purchasing from retail outlets has had a negative effect on the electric avenue retail traders?
> 
> The question has been asked, what more established Brixton Businesses purchase from the current market holders? Why have they not been singled out too?
> 
> If we are to have a serious discussion about this then we need to look at how the current traders can improve and change their business so they can continue to service the community for years to come rather then blame a certain section of local businesses for not propping up others at a risk to their own livelihoods.


The changes have to come from right across the board - both old and new businesses - but perhaps you will agree that newer, younger, more dynamic businesses may be be better placed to make those changes.

For premises that are part of national chains, then it clearly may be more of a challenge.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Yes, the original post holds no credibility until it is shown that a great many established businesses do buy regularly from the market.


So aside from supposedly selling "tired goods", you're now saying that the market trader has "no credibility"?


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> So aside from supposedly selling "tired goods", you're now saying that the market trader has "no credibility"?



Why not answer the question? The hole you dig for yourself gets deeper with each disingenuous post you make.
The story:
Editor has a chat with some markets traders who say that "nu" businesses don't buy from them. Editor says this is a bad thing for the market as he has known these people for a while. Meanwhile there has been no counterpoint to the story by telling that a great many established businesses do buy regularly from the market. 
Can editor kindly verify that many established businesses do in fact purchase regularly from the market, and if appropriate, give examples.
Hearsay, rumour and innuendo isn't enough.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

Winot said:


> Was the lower photo earlier or later? The claim seems pretty clear that they are using vegetables from Brixton Village.  If they aren't, it's a straightforward lie.



From the price rise I'd say the bottom photo was earlier.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> The story:
> Editor has a chat with some markets traders who say that "nu" businesses don't buy from them. Editor says this is a bad thing for the market as he has known these people for a while. Meanwhile there has been no counterpoint to the story by telling that a great many established businesses do buy regularly from the market.
> Can editor kindly verify that many established businesses do in fact purchase regularly from the market, and if appropriate, give examples.
> Hearsay, rumour and innuendo isn't enough.


I've just posted up what I was told by a trader - someone's whose opinion on the matter I trust a lot more than yours.

If you want to dispute what he said, why don't you toddle off and provide a list of these "great many established businesses" that _are_ buying their fruit and veg off the local market?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> From the price rise I'd say the bottom photo was earlier.


I've dropped them a line.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> The changes have to come from right across the board - both old and new businesses - but perhaps you will agree that newer, younger, more dynamic businesses may be be better placed to make those changes.
> 
> For premises that are part of national chains, then it clearly may be more of a challenge.


The changes need to come from the traders. It's not up to busy restaurant owners, who probably already have a supply chain which works for then,  to run around the market all day at a time which suits the market stall holders, jostling with daily shoppers, adjusting their menus to which stall might happen to have of what  available or looks fresh enough. How are the market traders supporting them? It will only happen in any meaningful way if it is a genuine two way relationship.


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> From the price rise I'd say the bottom photo was earlier.


Elementary, my dear Winot!



Our should that be alimentary?


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

Market vegetables is a generic term and if Honest Burgers hadn't started out in the market I wouldn't have read that it came from the Brixton Food Market


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> I've just posted up what I was told by a trader - someone's whose opinion on the matter I trust a lot more than yours.
> 
> If you want to dispute what he said, why don't you toddle off and provide a list of these "great many established businesses" that _are_ buying their fruit and veg off the local market?



I'm not denying he said it, and have accepted that you reported it. Why not balance your article with a list of local established businesses that do buy from the market? You have wilfully avoided this question.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I'm not denying he said it, and have accepted that you reported it. Why not balance your article with a list of local established businesses that do buy from the market. You have wilfully avoided this question.


WTF? How can I "wilfully avoid a question" that I don't know the answer to? I have already stated the one business I know for sure is buying locally. Off the top of my head I think Cornucopia do (or used to as I think they're not serving food any more) and so did the gluten free place (which has been renamed).

If you're asserting that there are in fact loads of businesses queuing up every day to buy their produce from the market, that's fantastic news. So can you name them all please?


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

Honest Burgers certainly used to buy their gluten free burger buns from the shop opposite.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> WTF? How can I "wilfully avoid a question" that I don't know the answer to?



I think the emphasis has to be made on the word "nu", and your readiness to jump on it and publish the story to use as a springboard for your obsession with new businesses in the area.


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## Ms T (Nov 11, 2014)

Honest is a small chain now so perhaps has centralised its buying?


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I think the emphasis has to be made on the word "nu", and your readiness to jump on it and publish the story to use as a springboard for your obsession with new businesses in the area.


Can you list some of these businesses that are using the market like I asked please?


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Can you list some of these businesses that are using the market like I asked please?



Can you? It's your article, you should know. Slip and slide as much as you like.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Can you? It's your article, you should know. Slip and slip as much as you like.


So you really can't actually name any then? OK.


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## AnotherAmbition (Nov 11, 2014)

I guess Honest started out buying from the market when they had a single branch however the success allowed them to realise multiple branches and it would no longer make sense to source separately rather than realise the economy of scale a multi site operation affords you, sounds like simply good business.

On a side note when ever I have used any of the Halal meat places on Electric Av the quality has been very low, cheap prices but for example chicken massively plumped up with salty fillers. I think most of those places are into these kind of nasty practices, if I was a restaurant owner I certainly would not purchase my meat from there.

Disclaimer - I do believe there are some other less offending places in the internal markets, however these do seem to be comparatively higher price, seems like a case of you get what you pay for.


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Market vegetables is a generic term and if Honest Burgers hadn't started out in the market I wouldn't have read that it came from the Brixton Food Market



Yeah it looks like they have changed practice. I don't think "market vegetables" is misleading.


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## Winot (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Elementary, my dear Winot!
> 
> 
> 
> Our should that be alimentary?



No shit Sherlock!


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> So you really can't actually name any then? OK.



I have no idea. But I do have an issue with your decision to report the "nu" aspect of the traders woes without any counterbalance. It clearly suits your viewpoint, as your many posts on the subject illustrate.
Back on subject, perhaps the market should concentrate on pulling customers away from supermarkets?


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## tompound (Nov 11, 2014)

In reality it's the same issues that are stopping restaurants and individuals from shopping at the markets (lack of information, possible cultural differences, convenience, etc). However none of these issues are in any way unsurmountable. The markets have a lot in their favour, and with just a fraction of the resources that supermarkets have, solutions could be found to give them a leg up.

We obviously have a good 'in' with a lot of the restaurants/cafes and some of the market traders, so will look in more detail as to what we can develop to help broker these new relationships. Ideas of course welcome!


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

The market traders need to work more cohesively.  At the moment there are too many stalls competing with eachother selling largely the exact same thing. It's a race to lowest prices and that impacts on margin and quality.  Which then alienates  more people. I don't think things will improve without a little consolidation and diversification. There was a chap on here who used to post as something like  Friends of Brixton Market. He spent a lot of time with the traders federation (not sure what it is called)  and felt that there was a lot of resistance to change .  tompound has access to a lot more resources than he did and might have more success.

As habits change,  the stall holders have become less valuable to shoppers as they use them less and less. It's reasonable to ask people to think about their shopping behaviour. But it is not realistic to expect  them to put themselves out on a regular basis just to keep a market, which they already have an alternative to (or else we would not be talking about it),  alive. They are going to have to reinvent themselves a bit.

Think not what the shoppers can do for you but what you can do for the shoppers!


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> There was a chap on here who used to post as something like  Friends of Brixton Market. He spent a lot of time with the traders federation (not sure what it is called)  and felt that there was a lot of resistance to change


If that's the case the market is doomed.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

tompound said:


> Ideas of course welcome!



Here's an idea, do a survey of customers of Iceland and ask them why they prefer Iceland fruit and veg over that of the market. Price? Convenience? Can't be quality, that's for sure!


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## Rushy (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> If that's the case the market is doomed.


The way I understood it was that everyone seemed to appreciate that changes were needed but when it came down to it people were only prepared to make very tiny concessions themselves . But we are now a few years down the line. Maybe there would be more enthusiasm /urgency now?


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## leanderman (Nov 11, 2014)

I  wish a delivery service was feasible, then I'd get everything from Nour, Dombey, A&C and Illias (fish).


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Here's an idea, do a survey of customers of Iceland and ask them why they prefer Iceland fruit and veg over that of the market. Price? Convenience? Can't be quality, that's for sure!



IF this thread is about getting restaurants to use the market, shouldn't a survey be done with the restaurant owners? If both the restaurant traders and the stall holders are getting the same(ish) rates from the wholesale market the the only attraction will be convenience for the restaurant traders. 

One of my best friends owns a florist in Australia, nowadays he is prepared to pay a small mark up to a third party to get his buying done a couple of days a week. Its taken him 15 years to be prepared to pay this premium.. He still treks out to the wholesale market at 4am 3 times a week, as he needs to maintain the relationship he has with the wholesalers to get the best price and best stock on the days he goes out there.


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## Onket (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> IF this thread is about getting restaurants to use the market, shouldn't a survey be done with the restaurant owners? If both the restaurant traders and the stall holders are getting the same(ish) rates from the wholesale market the the only attraction will be convenience for the restaurant traders.



The thread title relates to just one aspect of a wider issue, based on a chat someone had.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 11, 2014)

Sadly it seems the street markets have hit a brick wall,Along with Brixton, East street market,Petticoat lane,Peckham indoor, George street in Croydon, Once upon a time they sold almost everything, nowadays they all tend to trade in the same old tired products be it Vegetables,Cosmetics,Wigs, Fake trainers/tracksuits,Poorly made Childrens toys,Fake Rizlas,Exploding lighters, Shite batteries and cd's that may or may not work.The traders need to up there game and give the punter something they need and with quality assured and lots of variation.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> IF this thread is about getting restaurants to use the market, shouldn't a survey be done with the restaurant owners?



Sure, it might prove beneficial. But I think traders need to examine their relationship with what has traditionally been their primary customer, the average person on the street. As was mentioned above in the thread, the market is retail not wholesale.


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> Sadly it seems the street markets have hit a brick wall,Along with Brixton, East street market,Petticoat lane,Peckham indoor, George street in Croydon, Once upon a time they sold almost everything, nowadays they all tend to trade in the same old tired products be it Vegetables,Cosmetics,Wigs, Fake trainers/tracksuits,Poorly made Childrens toys,Fake Rizlas,Exploding lighters, Shite batteries and cd's that may or may not work.The traders need to up there game and give the punter something they need and with quality assured and lots of variation.



I had a Saturday job in the little unit just as you enter Granville from Popes Road in 1988/9. It sold tat & swag - most of the items you listed above ('Duracel' batteries, 5 lighters for a pound etc.), along with china figurines. Couldn't stock enough of the latter. It also meant that Brixton was the first place in the UK to see Rubik's Snake (which isn't a euphemism).


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Sure, it might prove beneficial. But I think traders need to examine their relationship with what has traditionally been their primary customer, the average person on the street. As was mentioned above in the thread, the market is retail not wholesale.



I think you are right. The demographic of brixton has changed over the years and customers want varied high quality produce and flexible shopping hours. 

If someone could band traders together to do something like a daily service where you could collect small orders/ingredient boxes on the way home from work I think it would be popular


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

On a side note when ever I have used any of the Halal meat places on Electric Av the quality has been very low, cheap prices but for example chicken massively plumped up with salty fillers. I think most of those places are into these kind of nasty practices, if I was a restaurant owner I certainly would not purchase my meat from there.

I have just remembered a business boasting of using market sourced products, it was the awful tapas bar (coke dealers/nightclub) just up from the Dogstar. I took one bite of the chicken they served and sent it back. This was many many years ago though!


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## cuppa tee (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> On a side note when ever I have used any of the Halal meat places on Electric Av the quality has been very low, cheap prices but for example chicken massively plumped up with salty fillers. I think most of those places are into these kind of nasty practices, if I was a restaurant owner I certainly would not purchase my meat from there.



A bit shocked by this post, the halal butchers in Station Road is very good quality, I have bought chicken from there many times and never had a problem with it, likewise their lamb and beef, the last time I was in for mince they had run out and ground up a nice bit for me, no fat to speak of and didn't leak a load of water like certain supermarkets I could mention......


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## leanderman (Nov 11, 2014)

Dombey's is unflashy and reliable for meat.

Never had consistent luck with fruit and veg


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I have no idea. But I do have an issue with your decision to report the "nu" aspect of the traders woes without any counterbalance. It clearly suits your viewpoint, as your many posts on the subject illustrate.


For hopefully the very last time: _I was reporting on what the trader told me. _


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> For hopefully the very last time: _I was reporting on what the trader told me. _



Yes I understood that. Certainly set off a discussion though.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 11, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> I had a Saturday job in the little unit just as you enter Granville from Popes Road in 1988/9. It sold tat & swag - most of the items you listed above ('Duracel' batteries, 5 lighters for a pound etc.), along with china figurines. Couldn't stock enough of the latter. It also meant that Brixton was the first place in the UK to see Rubik's Snake (which isn't a euphemism).


I always got my batteries off of the geezer outside the tube station


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Here's an idea, do a survey of customers of Iceland and ask them why they prefer Iceland fruit and veg over that of the market.


How do you know most customers of Iceland don't use the market? I certainly use both.


299 old timer said:


> Can't be quality, that's for sure!


And there you go again, slagging off the market. 

FYI, I almost always get better fruit off the market at a much better price.


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Yes I understood that. Certainly set off a discussion though.


Then why keep repeating something you know to be untrue?


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> Then why keep repeating something you know to be untrue?



What is untrue? Your cluelessness as to how restaurants operate?


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> What is untrue? Your cluelessness as to how restaurants operate?


If you can't even remember what you've just posted up and can only respond with abuse, I'll just have to ignore you.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> How do you know most customers of Iceland don't use the market? I certainly use both.
> And there you go again, slagging off the market.
> 
> FYI, I almost always get better fruit off the market at a much better price.



LOL! Read the message again. I was mentioning Iceland's poor quality. Dear oh dear.


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## discokermit (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> If you can't even remember what you've just posted up and can only respond with abuse, I'll just have to ignore you.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 11, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> A bit shocked by this post, the halal butchers in Station Road is very good quality, I have bought chicken from there many times and never had a problem with it, likewise their lamb and beef, the last time I was in for mince they had run out and ground up a nice bit for me, no fat to speak of and didn't leak a load of water like certain supermarkets I could mention......



Only the second paragraph is mine!


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## cuppa tee (Nov 11, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Only the second paragraph is mine!


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## snowy_again (Nov 11, 2014)

It's an erroneous quote pulled in from AnotherAmbition's post earlier.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Rushy said:


> The way I understood it was that everyone seemed to appreciate that changes were needed but when it came down to it people were only prepared to make very tiny concessions themselves . But we are now a few years down the line. Maybe there would be more enthusiasm /urgency now?


Indeed, maybe it takes the situation to get to the brink before something actually happens. People don't like change until there is no other choice.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I have no idea. But I do have an issue with your decision to report the "nu" aspect of the traders woes without any counterbalance. It clearly suits your viewpoint, as your many posts on the subject illustrate.


Why do you keep banging on with this point? Your presence on this thread had been nothing except negative or irrelevant.  



299 old timer said:


> Back on subject, perhaps the market should concentrate on pulling customers away from supermarkets?


Thats exactly what's being discussed while you were being irrelevant like the rats on the young ones fridge. We'll done for catching up.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> fridge. We'll done for catching up.





Mr Retro said:


> Why do you keep banging on with this point? Your presence on this thread had been nothing except negative or irrelevant.
> 
> 
> Thats exactly what's being discussed while you were being irrelevant like the rats on the young ones fridge. We'll done for catching up.



Kindly refer to post 53 thank you.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Why are you so negative though? Why are you trying to score points on a thread such as this? This whole discussion to try and help the market might be naive, but it's genuine. Try to be helpful or if you think the discussion is a dead end, say so and leave us to it.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Why are you so negative though? Why are you trying to score points on a thread such as this? This whole discussion to try and help the market might be naive, but it's genuine. Try to be helpful or if you think the discussion is a dead end, say so and leave us to it.



I'm not negative but to survive the market needs to move with the times I'm afraid. I agree with the sentiment of your  earlier post that there may be some business done between the relevant parties that are beneficial to both.
Why can't we question the og poster? Others took umbrage at how he framed his words?
I'm just an ordinary local bod. How can the market traders lure me back?


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## friendofdorothy (Nov 11, 2014)

I *love* the market - it's great it's cheap, interesting and unique.
Sorry - cant be bothered to read the whole of this slanging match, so incase someone hasn't already said it -

Why don't all punters of Brixton Village and other Nu Brixton eateries, who want to support the Market, ask them 'do you buy ingredients from the Market?' and tell them it's a shame if they don't. If they already claim to - check. Use your buying power.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> Why don't all punters of Brixton Village and other Nu Brixton eateries, who want to support the Market, ask them 'do you buy ingredients from the Market?' and tell then it's a shame if they don't. If they already claim to - check. Use your buying power.


That's what I've been thinking about and have already started by asking perhaps the most successful new local restaurant if their 'market vegetables' actually come from the market instead of some generic 'market' elsewhere.

I can't say I've been too encouraged by some of the responses here, but I'd like to think it might matter to some customers who are interested in trying to safeguard the future of the street markets.


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## Twattor (Nov 11, 2014)

It feels like this whole thread is based on a false premise; the veg market is failing because "nu-brixton" incomers don't buy from them.  How did they cope in the old days when what is now "brixton village" was virtually derelict?

The nature of consumption changes. Some, such as Nour and Dombey will prevail because they are unique and provide a wonderful service. Others who have a generic product will need to work harder to survive.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> It feels like this whole thread is based on a false premise; the veg market is failing because "nu-brixton" incomers don't buy from them.  How did they cope in the old days when what is now "brixton village" was virtually derelict?


The biggest false premise of all is that Brixton Village was once "virtually derelict."

It was never _anywhere near derelict_. Sure, it was run down because of the dodgy developers were hoping to be able to pull it down to build their hideous development and a number of the units were empty, but derelict? No, nowhere near it: and I have the photos to prove it.


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> The nature of consumption changes. Some, such as Nour and Dombey will prevail because they are unique and provide a wonderful service. Others who have a generic product will need to work harder to survive.


Except Nour very nearly didn't survive.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> Why don't all punters of Brixton Village and other Nu Brixton eateries, who want to support the Market, ask them 'do you buy ingredients from the Market?' and tell them it's a shame if they don't. If they already claim to - check. Use your buying power.


For me this misses the whole point totally. It doesn't matter who uses the market, the market needs to be used more across the board. 

People deciding not to eat in the new village restaurants, that don't get their produce from the market will make no difference to the longevity of the market whatsoever.


----------



## Twattor (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> The biggest false premise of all is that Brixton Village was once "virtually derelict."
> 
> It was never _anywhere near derelict_. Sure, it was run down because of the dodgy developers were hoping to be able to pull it down to build their hideous development and a number of the units were empty, but derelict? No, nowhere near it: and I have the photos to prove it.



Oh, come on. I remember going there five or six years ago because a colleague of mine wanted some "rasta stuff" to decorate his garage and i thought i might be able to find something there.  There were only about two occupied units in there.  I got a shit scarf for him.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> It feels like this whole thread is based on a false premise; the veg market is failing because "nu-brixton" incomers don't buy from them.  How did they cope in the old days when what is now "brixton village" was virtually derelict?



A lot of customers from the 'old days' who liked cheap food from from all over the world, can't afford to live near brixton area anymore and have moved away. New Brixtonites are more likely to order groceries online and eat out more.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> Oh, come on. I remember going there five or six years ago because a colleague of mine wanted some "rasta stuff" to decorate his garage and i thought i might be able to find something there.  There were only about two occupied units in there.  I got a shit scarf for him.


If you thought that there was only "two occupied units" in the whole of Brixton Village 5 or 6 years ago, then you must have been puffing VERY heavily on the "rasta stuff."


----------



## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> A lot of customers from the 'old days' who liked cheap food from from all over the world, can't afford to live near brixton area anymore and have moved away. New Brixtonites are more likely to order groceries online and eat out more.


Yep. With just about all the squatters and co-ops emptied out from the centre of Brixton thanks to the 'co-op' council, and sky-rocketing rents forcing out a lot of the less cash-rich, I think it's fair to say that a fair chunk of the market's traditional customer base has moved away.


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## Twattor (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> If you thought that there was only "two occupied units" in the whole of Brixton Village 5 or 6 years ago, then you must have been puffing VERY heavily on the "rasta stuff."



Living in terror - i'd only been here six years and was still too scared to stay there long enough to check them both out


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## Mr Retro (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> It feels like this whole thread is based on a false premise; the veg market is failing because "nu-brixton" incomers don't buy from them.


Nobody is claiming this. Please leave it go?

The market is failing by degrees and something needs to be done. One thing that might be done is restaurants and stall holders working together in a way that is mutually beneficial. That's all.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

For reference: Brixton Village, Feb 2008. Busy. Lots of units open.


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## editor (Nov 11, 2014)

Twattor said:


> Living in terror - i'd only been here six years and was still too scared to stay there long enough to check them both out


You found Brixton Village scary? WTF!!!


----------



## Twattor (Nov 11, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Nobody is claiming this. Please leave it go?
> 
> The market is failing by degrees and something needs to be done. One thing that might be done is restaurants and stall holders working together in a way that is mutually beneficial. That's all.



don't get me wrong; i entirely applaud


editor said:


> You found Brixton Village scary? WTF!!!



Yeah.  That was before the welcoming arms of C&F


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## Crispy (Nov 11, 2014)

editor said:


> puffing VERY heavily on the "rasta stuff."


tagline


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> For me this misses the whole point totally. It doesn't matter who uses the market, the market needs to be used more across the board.
> 
> People deciding not to eat in the new village restaurants, that don't get their produce from the market will make no difference to the longevity of the market whatsoever.



Exactly. But more fun to blame 'Nu-Brixton' restaurants for the fate of what seems to be a retail market


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> On a side note when ever I have used any of the Halal meat places on Electric Av the quality has been very low, cheap prices but for example chicken massively plumped up with salty fillers. I think most of those places are into these kind of nasty practices, if I was a restaurant owner I certainly would not purchase my meat from there.



Me neither. The meat from the Farmer's Market is far superior to anything I've bought in the market.  I'm not a fan of Dombey's. Once you've had chicken that actually tastes of chicken and properly hung beef there's no going back.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Nobody is claiming this. Please leave it go?
> 
> The market is failing by degrees and something needs to be done. One thing that might be done is restaurants and stall holders working together in a way that is mutually beneficial. That's all.



But probably much less important than trying to get locals like me buying there more often.

And we don't know the extent to which restaurants can, could or don't buy within the market


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> I'm not a fan of Dombey's.



How dare you!


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Me neither. The meat from the Farmer's Market is far superior to anything I've bought in the market.


I'm guessing the price is far superior too, but then farmers' markets are generally more expensive overall compared to traditional street markets.


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm guessing the price is far superior too, but then farmers' markets are generally more expensive overall compared to traditional street markets.


And often the ' farms ' are as intensive and mechanised as any, the only difference being that the final product can be divided into smaller batches for sale at markets instead of supermarkets.


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## brixtonblade (Nov 12, 2014)

leanderman said:


> How dare you!



They dont sell free range chicken so I dont go there.  Is a shame as it means I cant do a full shop in the market.


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## Onket (Nov 12, 2014)

Can a mod please update the thread title now it's been established that it's not just down to local restaurants to reverse the decline of the markets?


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I'm guessing the price is far superior too, but then farmers' markets are generally more expensive overall compared to traditional street markets.


It actually compares quite favourably, especially if you go later in the day, and is all free range.


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> And often the ' farms ' are as intensive and mechanised as any, the only difference being that the final product can be divided into smaller batches for sale at markets instead of supermarkets.


It's all free range and you can definitely taste the difference, as Mr Sainsbury might say.


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

leanderman said:


> How dare you!


The butcher on Dulwich Rd is better, and nearer your house!


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## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

The way people shop has been changing. People are going online for their products. They might go to a shop, look at what they want to buy, go home and order it online from the retailer they visited or somewhere cheaper. 

With food shopping, more people are buying their weekly/monthly shop online because it saves time and energy. If the market adds no extra value to a food shopping except maybe saving a few pennies, then those who don't need to save will not use the market. 

With cheap food shops such as Lidl and Aldi being used my all sorts including the traditional market shopper, then the market stall traders need to look at why these customers have left them. I imagine convenience of doing all the shopping in one place will be a reason. 

Market stall holders need to figure out to improve their service. It's not the responsibility of other businesses to look after them.


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

I suspect the fact that women are much more likely to work these days is a big factor too.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> The butcher on Dulwich Rd is better, and nearer your house!



True. 

But Michael and his team are lovely and have even bothered to learn our names. Can't jilt them!


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> It's all free range and you can definitely taste the difference, as Mr Sainsbury might say.


And I'd imagine that the same cuts from the same beast wind their way into Mr Sainsbury's fridges as well.

I have no doubt that if you enjoy the market experience, can afford to splash a few quid, spend a bit of time thinking about and cooking your beef then it will be a wonderful experience. But if you think there is a qualitative difference between what's at the farmers market and what's in Lidl then you are wrong.


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> And I'd imagine that the same cuts from the same beast wind their way into Mr Sainsbury's fridges as well.
> 
> I have no doubt that if you enjoy the market experience, can afford to splash a few quid, spend a bit of time thinking about and cooking your beef then it will be a wonderful experience. But if you think there is a qualitative difference between what's at the farmers market and what's in Lidl then you are wrong.


No i'm not.  You're making assumptions about me. I've bought free range chicken thighs from Lidl too and the farmer's market ones from Boarstall Meat are better - more tender, more "chickeny". Same goes for the steak. Even Hendo who is not as much of a foodie notices the difference. And the price is competitive. That's why they sell out, and have all sorts of Brixtonites as customers, not just the well-heeled. They even sell goat, if you ask for it.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> No i'm not.  You're making assumptions about me. I've bought free range chicken thighs from Lidl too and the farmer's market ones from Boarstall Meat are better - more tender, more "chickeny". Same goes for the steak. Even Hendo who is not as much of a foodie notices the difference. And the price is competitive. That's why they sell out, and have all sorts of Brixtonites as customers, not just the well-heeled. They even sell goat, if you ask for it.



We need to do a double blind taste test!


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## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

I can do a weekly meat shop for 2-3 people for £20 from Borstall, and still have a relatively full freezer by the following Sunday morning.


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## DotCommunist (Nov 12, 2014)

I'm putting this entire forum on ignore now. Tedious moaning about markets and restaurants and bellendry. You people don't know you're born, try getting a decent market shop done in the satellite town of a regional shire

#ketteringtilidie


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> No i'm not.  You're making assumptions about me. I've bought free range chicken thighs from Lidl too and the farmer's market ones from Boarstall Meat are better - more tender, more "chickeny". Same goes for the steak. Even Hendo who is not as much of a foodie notices the difference. And the price is competitive. That's why they sell out, and have all sorts of Brixtonites as customers, not just the well-heeled. They even sell goat, if you ask for it.


There is no way that a farm can generate its entire income through going to a single farmer's market.

In fact, I believe it is quite difficult for a farmer to get access to his own beef as they cannot slaughter it themselves. It is bought from the farmer at market and then goes to the abbatoir. I suppose some farmer could go to the abbatoir, ask them to slaughter the animal, butcher it themselves and bring it to the farmer's market but why would he do that? His job is on the farm.

What is actually happening in these farmers' markets is that the same meat wholesalers who sell to Lidl, Asda etc. sell some to people who will sell them at farmers' markets. And some of the retailers are part of a massive organisation who is selling as much meat for Sunday dinners as Morrisons is, but is doing it dotted out around the country at farmers' markets.

As for the markets themselves, I love buying fruit and veg in Electric Avenue. It's as good quality as supermarket stuff, if not better, cheaper than the supermarket and the people working there are very friendly. But throw a bit of muck on to their spuds, stick up a banner behind declaring that you come from some farm or other, and you could triple the price and sell it at the farmers' markets. People would lap it up.


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## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

Hmm, you might want to go and speak to the people who run Borstall, cos that's the exact opposite of what happens with them.


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## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Market stall holders need to figure out to improve their service. It's not the responsibility of other businesses to look after them.


I would have thought that there's no reason why the market traders couldn't shape their services to provide for a changing Brixton if the businesses started a dialogue with them. I suspect this hasn't happened much.

Clearly it's possible and practical as some successful restaurants are able to source some of their ingredients from the local markets. Why can't more?

We don't all live in isolation, and if I started a food business in Brixton, I would certainly take a very strong interest in using local traders and services wherever possible. That's what being part of a community is all about to me: keeping it local and supporting local traders.


----------



## SarfLondoner (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> There is no way that a farm can generate its entire income through going to a single farmer's market.
> 
> In fact, I believe it is quite difficult for a farmer to get access to his own beef as they cannot slaughter it themselves. It is bought from the farmer at market and then goes to the abbatoir. I suppose some farmer could go to the abbatoir, ask them to slaughter the animal, butcher it themselves and bring it to the farmer's market but why would he do that? His job is on the farm.
> 
> ...


Get a supermarket


Smick said:


> There is no way that a farm can generate its entire income through going to a single farmer's market.
> 
> In fact, I believe it is quite difficult for a farmer to get access to his own beef as they cannot slaughter it themselves. It is bought from the farmer at market and then goes to the abbatoir. I suppose some farmer could go to the abbatoir, ask them to slaughter the animal, butcher it themselves and bring it to the farmer's market but why would he do that? His job is on the farm.
> 
> ...


I have found a huge difference in quality when buying free range or farmers market as opposed to supermarket chicken. The supermarket meat is full of fluid and the bones break easily. A free range chicken has none of the above issues, The bones don't just snap and my oven tray is not swimming with water and it actually tastes of what it's supposed to be.


----------



## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Hmm, you might want to go and speak to the people who run Borstall, cos that's the exact opposite of what happens with them.


And they do lots of markets, not just one.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I would have thought that there's no reason why the market traders couldn't shape their services to provide for a changing Brixton if the businesses started a dialogue with them. I suspect this hasn't happened much.
> 
> Clearly it's possible and practical as some successful restaurants are able to source some of their ingredients from the local markets. Why can't more?
> 
> We don't all live in isolation, and if I started a food business in Brixton, I would certainly take a very strong interest in using local traders and services wherever possible. That's what being part of a community is all about to me: keeping it local and supporting local traders.



I don't think its fair to put this onto the new businesses to sort out. If the market traders want to shift their traditional business from retail to wholesale, surely its up to them to be approaching the restaurants to see if there is a way they can work together. 

The traders also need to adapt to the existing (changing) retail customer needs. I think their energies would be better focussed on finding ways to make themselves attractive to this market rather than supplying trade customers where the mark up will be minimal.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> I don't think its fair to put this onto the new businesses to sort out.


I wasn't only referring to new businesses, although the successful new restaurants - with their more dynamic, flexible, set ups - appear to be a conspicuous missed opportunity.

And yes, the markets have to look at appealing to other shoppers too.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I wasn't only referring to new businesses, although the successful new restaurants - with their more dynamic, flexible, set ups - appear to be a conspicuous missed opportunity.
> 
> And yes, the markets have to look at appealing to other shoppers too.



I don't see how the new restaurants are more dynamic and flexible than the existing restaurants in the area. The majority are all small businesses, although some may have made a success and opened more branches (Honest).


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## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> new restaurants - with their more dynamic, flexible, set ups



Please explain what this means, and how they differ from other restaurants, thanks.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> We don't all live in isolation, and if I started a food business in Brixton, I would certainly take a very strong interest in using local traders and services wherever possible. That's what being part of a community is all about to me: keeping it local and supporting local traders.



Doesn't this assume that new businesses are completely new start ups when they set up though? 

Most of the ones I know are either people leaving one establishment and starting out on their own, or people bringing a smaller enterprise to new premises in the market. 

Both of those sets will already have networks of existing suppliers they've worked with and trust over a period of time.  Starting a business is stressful enough without adding an untested new supplier, or network of suppliers into the situation.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> I don't see how the new restaurants are more dynamic and flexible than the existing restaurants in the area.


Really? They're usually young starts up, _very_ media savvy, pop-up ready, well educated and often with access to cash reserves*. How do you think that compares with, say, a traditional market business?

*(Not necessarily a criticism, just an observation)


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## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> Doesn't this assume that new businesses are completely new start ups when they set up though?


I was referring to the new style of Brixton businesses: e.g. Honest Foods, Shrub and Shutter etc.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Really? They're usually young starts up, _very_ media savvy, well educated and often with access to cash reserves*. How do you think that compared with, say, a traditional market business?
> 
> *(Not necessarily a criticism, just an observation)



We aren't talking about traditional market businesses though, we are talking about existing Brixton restaurants. Plenty of whom seemed to have embraced on-line ordering either on their own or through portals like Hungry House, so I don't think they are un-media savvy. 

Some of the market restaurant start ups make have borrowed from the bank of mum and dad or have backing but I'm sure the existing restaurants outside the market had some of this as well. 

If the market traders want to stay relevant in a changing world that is up to them. I'd support and encourage them, but the onus seems to be put on everyone but them


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> We aren't talking about traditional market businesses though, we are talking about existing Brixton restaurants. Plenty of whom seemed to have embraced on-line ordering either on their own or through portals like Hungry House, so I don't think they are un-media savvy.
> 
> Some of the market restaurant start ups make have borrowed from the bank of mum and dad or have backing but I'm sure the existing restaurants outside the market had some of this as well.


I wasn't making that claim but I am finding it hard to keep up with this discussion that keeps jumping about all over the place. I've already stated that existing businesses need to targeted too, as do regular shoppers.

But - in the last few posts - we were specifically discussing the newer businesses. That is the point I was responding to.

I am only trying to think of ways to possibly help the markets. I don't claim to have solutions but I think it's an important discussion to have because I care about the markets.


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Really? They're usually young starts up, _very_ media savvy, pop-up ready, well educated and often with access to cash reserves*. How do you think that compares with, say, a traditional market business?
> *(Not necessarily a criticism, just an observation)



So in contrast to the existing businesses, new businesses are 

exposed to greater risk (they're untested), and therefore more prone to fail 
they're less stable (limited tenancies on premises), 
They're new to the wider market (and therefore need to sell themselves cheaply and creatively to new customers in a wider geography), 
They have no or little existing client base 
Less experienced / more naive / but might have some certificates proving they can pass exams 
Have capital but no revenue stream


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I wasn't making that claim but I am finding it hard to keep up with this discussion that keeps jumping about all over the place. I've already stated that existing businesses need to targeted too, as do regular shoppers.
> 
> But - in the last few posts - we were specifically discussing the newer businesses. That is the point I was responding to.
> 
> I am only trying to think of ways to possibly help the markets. I don't claim to have solutions but I think it's an important discussion to have because I care about the markets.



Ok, lets go back to the existing title thread. 

If there could be a kite mark scheme that showed the restaurant had sourced all/a large % of their produce in Brixton Market that would make me more likely to take my custom to that particular restaurant. 

Tied into the suggestion of veg/recipe boxes, a restaurant takes turn each week to develop a seasonal recipe box with a market trader and have those boxes available for pick up from the trader or restaurant. 

A blog/facebook/twatter account for the market that highlights what fresh seasonal produce is new this week and links to recipes provided by restaurants. 

A local produce evening once a week, where restaurants commit to using locally market sourced produce in their recipes. Could tie that in with wine from Market Row Wines.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Ok, lets go back to the existing title thread.
> 
> If there could be a kite mark scheme that showed the restaurant had sourced all/a large % of their produce in Brixton Market that would make me more likely to take my custom to that particular restaurant.
> 
> ...


That's exactly the kind of thing I'd like to see too. All good ideas.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

Just to repeat a point I think is relevant: Brixton is famous for its street markets. Internationally famous, probably. 

So when a restaurant says it's using 'market vegetables' or 'food sourced from local markets,' I don't think it's unreasonable that people will assume that they've come from the local, famous markets. 

I think it would be good to get this clarified.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Tied into the suggestion of veg/recipe boxes, a restaurant takes turn each week to develop a seasonal recipe box with a market trader and have those boxes available for pick up from the trader or restaurant.


Come to think of it, wasn't something similar suggested here about five years ago?


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

The kite scheme's what the Sustainable Restaurant Association does: 

http://www.thesra.org/what-we-offer/sustainability-rating/ 
http://www.thesra.org/about-us/what-is-sustainability/society/


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Just to repeat a point I think is relevant: Brixton is famous for its street markets. Internationally famous, probably.
> So when a restaurant says it's using 'market vegetables' or 'food sourced from local markets,' I don't think it's unreasonable that people will assume that they've come from the local, famous markets. I think it would be good to get this clarified.



But New Covent Garden Market in Vauxhall is 2.3 miles away - that's very much still local. And even then, if they bought it from brixton market stalls, most likely it's still coming from Vauxhall.  

There's still the economics of it - can you outline the cash incentive for the public retail market stall holders to service the restaurant trade?


----------



## Dan U (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> There is no way that a farm can generate its entire income through going to a single farmer's market.
> 
> In fact, I believe it is quite difficult for a farmer to get access to his own beef as they cannot slaughter it themselves. It is bought from the farmer at market and then goes to the abbatoir. I suppose some farmer could go to the abbatoir, ask them to slaughter the animal, butcher it themselves and bring it to the farmer's market but why would he do that? His job is on the farm.
> 
> ...


Bollocks


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> But New Covent Garden Market in Vauxhall is 2.3 miles away - that's very much still local. And even then, if they bought it from brixton market stalls, most likely it's still coming from Vauxhall.
> 
> There's still the economics of it - can you outline the cash incentive for the public retail market stall holders to service the restaurant trade?


All I can say is that the are trader said that they could match the prices the restaurants were paying. And clearly it is possible - Duck Egg do it.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Ok, lets go back to the existing title thread.
> 
> If there could be a kite mark scheme that showed the restaurant had sourced all/a large % of their produce in Brixton Market that would make me more likely to take my custom to that particular restaurant.
> 
> ...


 Great ideas


----------



## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> All I can say is that the are trader said that they could match the prices the restaurants were paying. And clearly it is possible - Duck Egg do it.



But you agree that New Covent Gdn is also a close and famous market?

From having eaten a couple of times at Duck Egg, i think there's a limited amount of fresh fruit & veg as it's basically a high end greasy spoon isn't it?


----------



## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Dan U said:


> Bollocks



Very eloquently put Dan.

Care to elaborate?


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> I would have thought that there's no reason why the market traders couldn't shape their services to provide for a changing Brixton if the businesses started a dialogue with them. I suspect this hasn't happened much.
> 
> Clearly it's possible and practical as some successful restaurants are able to source some of their ingredients from the local markets. Why can't more?
> 
> We don't all live in isolation, and if I started a food business in Brixton, I would certainly take a very strong interest in using local traders and services wherever possible. That's what being part of a community is all about to me: keeping it local and supporting local traders.



Market traders can also start the dialogues with other businesses too. There is no reason both can't support each other to flourish.

Not everybody is into the keeping it local idea and supporting local traders and business. Lots of people like the idea of local gift shops and book shops but still buy it all from Amazon. Or get a similar product from a big retailer because they trust the brand. If I was starting a food business in Brixton, I would like to support local business but only if it worked with my schedule, the costs were right and the produce was good.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> If I was starting a food business in Brixton, I would like to support local business but only if it worked with my schedule, the costs were right and the produce was good.


But maybe if turned out that - thanks to a local campaign - customers started to express a preference for businesses supporting the local economy, you'd be more inclined to try and engage with local traders?


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> But you agree that New Covent Gdn is also a close and famous market?


Brixton's identity is very closely linked with it street markers, and I don't see any obvious association with New Covent Gdn.

Given the trend for locally sourced goods (and increased likelihood of it customers), how close do you think a wholesaler has to be to Brixton to be able to use the phrase "market vegetables"?

Personally I think it's a bit misleading, but I'm sure you don't agree.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> But maybe if turned out that - thanks to a local campaign - customers started to express a preference for businesses supporting the local economy, you'd be more inclined to try and engage with local traders?



I think this would be an incentive to engage with the market traders. If they could match the wholesale prices and type and quality of stock required.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Brixton's identity is very closely linked with it street markers, and I don't see any obvious association with New Covent Gdn.
> 
> Given the trend for locally sourced goods (and increased likelihood of it customers), how close do you think a wholesaler has to be to Brixton to be able to use the phrase "market vegetables"?
> 
> Personally I think it's a bit misleading, but I'm sure you don't agree.



Sorry, I don't agree. Market vegetables and Market Price are very generic terms. Brixton Market Vegetables is a completely different matter.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> If they could match the wholesale prices and type and quality of stock required.



I'd be interested to know how they would do this. A lot of extra effort for very little return.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Sorry, I don't agree. Market vegetables and Market Price are very generic terms. Brixton Market Vegetables is a completely different matter.


What's 'market price' got to do with it?


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I'd be interested to know how they would do this. A lot of extra effort for very little return.


Mr Gloom speaks again.

It works for Duck Egg so why wouldn't it work for some others?


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> What's 'market price' got to do with it?



Both Market Vegetables and Market Price are widely used terms in the restaurant business. Market Vegetables refers to a selection of vegetables available at the market today, Market Price refers to something (say a whole fish) being sold at the per gram/kilo price at The Market today


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> Very eloquently put Dan.
> 
> Care to elaborate?


It's well within the abilites of a farmer to produce their own veg, meat is more complicated but it can be done.

The stuff in the farmers market is different to the supermarket and the street market so I'm not sure where you're point is from?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Mr Gloom speaks again.
> 
> It works for Duck Egg so why wouldn't it work for some others?



Good for them! I was more referring to the market trader who by passing on wholesale prices to the restaurant won't make a profit, but with all the extra work involved. In effect he is acting as a courier without getting paid.


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> But maybe if turned out that - thanks to a local campaign - customers started to express a preference for businesses supporting the local economy, you'd be more inclined to try and engage with local traders?



There are a fair amount of keep it local and local retail days. Everything helps towards keeping a diverse high street that isn't over run by chains. 

If those customers were regular customers that I risked losing who were essential to my business making enough money to keep going than of course it would be the best thing to do. I'd still want to make sure the local traders could be reliable and offer a decent product.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Good for them! I was more referring to the market trader who by passing on wholesale prices to the restaurant won't make a profit, but with all the extra work involved. In effect he is acting as a courier without getting paid.


Why on earth would he offer to do that?


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> There are a fair amount of keep it local and local retail days. Everything helps towards keeping a diverse high street that isn't over run by chains.
> 
> If those customers were regular customers that I risked losing who were essential to my business making enough money to keep going than of course it would be the best thing to do. I'd still want to make sure the local traders could be reliable and offer a decent product.


Has anyone got any actual evidence of what seems to be the widely presumed unreliability of the market traders?


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Has anyone got any actual evidence of what seems to be the widely presumed unreliability of the market traders?



If i was starting a food business I might want to head to the wholesaler with years of experience rather than the retailer who  is doing wholesale. When I am a bit more established I might want to head towards a more local model and support the market retailers.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Why on earth would he offer to do that?



You said they could offer wholesale prices.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> If i was starting a food business I might want to head to the wholesaler with years of experience rather than the retailer who  is doing wholesale.


Even when you're starting a very small local business? Sometimes you can get a lot more flexibility from people you get to know and see everyday rather than dealing with some distant mega-wholesaler. 

We made a point of using a local start up brewery for our beers and I think we'll benefit more in the long term from establishing such local connections.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> You said they could offer wholesale prices.


And exactly where did they say that they would make no profit and "act as a courier without getting paid"?


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

editor - it might not be a mega-wholesaler - it might just be someone in Brixton with established wholesale experience. Having dealt with mega menswear brands and little menswear brand,the relationship with the supplier is key to flexibility regardless of the size of the company. Actually big companies can be a lot more flexible than little ones.

Anyway here my old blog post about shopping local in Brixton: http://littlelambeth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/12/keeping-it-local-part-1where-can-i-find.html


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> And exactly where did they say that they would make no profit and "act as a courier without getting paid"?



Jeez. If the market stall holder (as you mentioned above near the beginning of the thread) could offer wholesale prices to the restaurant, I assumed there would be no profit margin and therefore they are doing all the leg work without any retail mark up. A very generous business model I might add. Perhaps they'd like to extend this generosity to the public?
I'm curious as to how it would work.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Jeez. If the market stall holder (as you mentioned above near the beginning of the thread) could offer wholesale prices to the restaurant, I assumed there would be no profit margin and therefore they are doing all the leg work without any retail mark up. A very generous business model I might add. Perhaps they'd like to extend this generosity to the public?
> I'm curious as to how it would work.


Do you think the other trader supplies Duck Egg out of the goodness of his heart then?


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Do you think the other trader supplies Duck Egg out of the goodness of his heart then?



Answer the question please, you sound like a broken record.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Answer the question please, you sound like a broken record.


Answer what question? You keep making daft things up and then asking equally nonsensical questions.

Unless you can provide proof that the trader is supposedly supplying Duck Egg at a loss (which is, frankly, HUGELY improbable) then this whole 'doing it for nothing' scenario is just a fantasy existing inside your own noggin.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Answer what question? You keep making daft things up and then asking equally nonsensical questions.
> 
> Unless you can provide proof that the trader is supposedly supplying Duck Egg at a loss (which is, frankly, HUGELY improbable) then this whole 'doing it for nothing' scenario is just a fantasy existing inside your own noggin.



I don't know the Duck's relationship with the supplier, do you?

An earlier statement by yourself:
"The trader I spoke to said that they were able to match the prices restaurants were paying from other suppliers"
Ok, probably wholesale prices with a mark up for labour etc. Again, very generous. Can they pass these prices onto the public so we can all benefit?


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I don't know the Duck's relationship with the supplier, do you?
> 
> An earlier statement by yourself:
> "The trader I spoke to said that they were able to match the prices restaurants were paying from other suppliers"
> Ok, probably wholesale prices with a mark up for labour etc. Again, very generous. Can they pass these prices onto the public so we can all benefit?


It's usual practice for suppliers to give a discount to the trade, to build up a relationship paid back by regular custom. When I was in Uni I worked lunches in a pub and used to have to go to the same traders to pick up supplies as the pub owner had worked out a deal

It worked for the pub owner because he was a mean prick and would have gone elsewhere if it didn't. It worked for the stall holders because otherwise they wouldn't have supplied them. So it works, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it doesn't. 

But then your not on the thread to do anything except be a tedious negative prick


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> It's usual practice for suppliers to give a discount to the trade, to build up a relationship paid back by regular custom. When I was in Uni I worked lunches in a pub and used to have to go to the same traders to pick up supplies as the pub owner had worked out a deal
> 
> It worked for the pub owner because he was a mean prick and would have gone elsewhere if it didn't. It worked for the stall holders because otherwise they wouldn't have supplied them. So it works, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it doesn't.
> 
> But then your not on the thread to do anything except be a tedious negative prick



Charming.
I ask questions to get answers for understanding and generate debate. Some people appear not to like to be questioned in such a manner so they keep shifting the goalposts, probably because they don't have answers. In your case you have given a good example, which is very welcome.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> Charming.
> I ask questions to get answers for understanding and generate debate. Some people appear not to like to be questioned in such a manner so they keep shifting the goalposts, probably because they don't have answers.


This isn't true. You have added nothing here, you just being exhausting in a thread whose intentions at least are to try help out a much loved local resource.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> It's usual practice for suppliers to give a discount to the trade, to build up a relationship paid back by regular custom. When I was in Uni I worked lunches in a pub and used to have to go to the same traders to pick up supplies as the pub owner had worked out a deal





As I understand it, this is a retail seller, who would be buying at wholesale price, then selling at the same wholesale price the restaurant could get from wholesalers, I can see why people are dubious


----------



## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> It's usual practice for suppliers to give a discount to the trade, to build up a relationship paid back by regular custom. When I was in Uni I worked lunches in a pub and used to have to go to the same traders to pick up supplies as the pub owner had worked out a deal
> 
> It worked for the pub owner because he was a mean prick and would have gone elsewhere if it didn't. It worked for the stall holders because otherwise they wouldn't have supplied them. So it works, I'm not sure why you keep insisting it doesn't.
> 
> But then your not on the thread to do anything except be a tedious negative prick



I feel inclined to gently stick up for 299 old timer on this. I don’t think he has made any particularly controversial points beyond questioning the premise behind the thread and he has a valid point about the divisive way these topics are so often initiated and conducted. It’s not a simple question about how we can help the market - the implication, as ever, is that the root of the problem is heartless, selfish, insensitive, greedy, nu-residents and/or nu-businesses (whatever they may be). If you don't agree with the mod line – or be so bold as to ask for some evidence or justification of their view - you either don't care about where you live, or are somehow against it. You are part of the problem. You simply don’t understand. You are characterised by a severe personal failing or you are even just plain stupid. Then it just becomes a matter of who backs down / gives up. This is a quirk of the moderation style on this board which we all reluctantly buy into by contributing here –mostly because we all have an interest in Brixton and the board is full of interesting people, knowledge, opinions and, not least, distracting chit chat. I totally get your frustration at the type of exchanges this brings with it (both from being in them and listening in on them) and I’d agree that a change would be nice. But if free and open discussion is what you would like, then I don’t see that there is much to gain by posters telling eachother to get off the board – as you suggested in an earlier post - whilst ignoring the elephant in the room. It is no more interesting to read than the other catty posts and probably just fuels the flames.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> This isn't true. You have added nothing here, you just being exhausting in a thread whose intentions at least are to try help out a much loved local resource.


One of the intentions was to blame the new restaurants, when the market serves a different type of customer entirely.  Why not mention people using supermarkets in the op?


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

Perhaps the local traders want to find out how to do deliveries to local old people stuck at home. I think they should help the local community by going to meet the needs of the local elderly. My mum gets all her stuff online because she just can't get out the house to shop however she would probably be quite keen if a local delivery scheme from local traders came along to support the needs of the local elderly.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> One of the intentions was to blame the new restaurants, when the market serves a different type of customer entirely.  Why not mention people using supermarkets in the op?



I did earlier mention the negative effect the supermarkets had had on the street market, which was corroborated by tompound. Inevitable really, what with the convenience of doing all your shopping in one place, and loading it into the boot of the car in the parking space. It's a shame, a high street where some friends live was devastated by the arrival of a mega Sainsburys.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Perhaps the local traders want to find out how to do deliveries to local old people stuck at home. I think they should help the local community by going to meet the needs of the local elderly. My mum gets all her stuff online because she just can't get out the house to shop however she would probably be quite keen if a local delivery scheme from local traders came along to support the needs of the local elderly.


But who would finance that and provide the necessary resources (transport/logistics etc)? It's not like the market traders are raking it in.


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I don't know the Duck's relationship with the supplier, do you?
> 
> An earlier statement by yourself:
> "The trader I spoke to said that they were able to match the prices restaurants were paying from other suppliers"
> Ok, probably wholesale prices with a mark up for labour etc. Again, very generous. Can they pass these prices onto the public so we can all benefit?


So now you're asking market traders to sell to the public at wholesale prices? Jeez. That's going to really help them.


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

Contrast and compare would be an interesting exercise. Does the Brixton traders association have any formal / informal links with East St market traders? For example it would be informative to discover if East St market traders supply local restaurants and to what extent / how did they achieve this etc. Also what initiatives do they have to lure shoppers away from the supermarkets and into the market.


----------



## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

Another thought: A Brixton Market loyalty card, but instead of the customers getting rewarded, traders could donate goods/produce to the Brixton Soup Kitchen or similar


----------



## Dan U (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> Very eloquently put Dan.
> 
> Care to elaborate?


Yeah fair point. I lost signal on my phone and meant to edit to say more. 

I was questioning the idea about farmers markets containing people pretending to be selling meat from farms and in fact selling it from the same wholesalers as tesco etc. 

Do you have evidence of this? 

Certainly the farms local to me who sell their own produce send their animals off to slaughter at the local abattoir (as I believe they are legally obliged to do)  and then get the carcasses back to hang, butcher etc which they then sell to the public. Farming may be their 'job' but in order to survive some of them also sell their own products directly as they can make more money doing so. 

You do get meat vans at markets, but this isn't the same thing

Anyway that isn't what this thread was about really was just interested in why you thought that happened.


----------



## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Dan U said:


> Yeah fair point. I lost signal on my phone and meant to edit to say more.
> 
> I was questioning the idea about farmers markets containing people pretending to be selling meat from farms and in fact selling it from the same wholesalers as tesco etc.
> 
> ...



No, I have no evidence beyond what I have read in various dubious papers and the like.

My points are these: Firstly, farmers' market sales are a sideline for most farms. A farm will not survive on them alone. Their meat is entering the supermarkets and butchery supply chain as well as these markets. Secondly, many sales in farmers' markets come from companies who are selling huge volumes in multiple farmers' markets and sell the same volume of produce at the weekend that some retail chains do. Finally, there is a massive pricing premium charged on goods sold at farmers' markets which is based on some phoney-romantic notion of agriculture. Buying from a supermarket or butcher is likely to be less expensive, more hygienic and more convenient.


----------



## Mr Retro (Nov 12, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I feel inclined to gently stick up for 299 old timer on this. I don’t think he has made any particularly controversial points beyond questioning the premise behind the thread and he has a valid point about the divisive way these topics are so often initiated and conducted. It’s not a simple question about how we can help the market - the implication, as ever, is that the root of the problem is heartless, selfish, insensitive, greedy, nu-residents and/or nu-businesses (whatever they may be). If you don't agree with the mod line – or be so bold as to ask for some evidence or justification of their view - you either don't care about where you live, or are somehow against it. You are part of the problem. You simply don’t understand. You are characterised by a severe personal failing or you are even just plain stupid. Then it just becomes a matter of who backs down / gives up. This is a quirk of the moderation style on this board which we all reluctantly buy into by contributing here –mostly because we all have an interest in Brixton and the board is full of interesting people, knowledge, opinions and, not least, distracting chit chat. I totally get your frustration at the type of exchanges this brings with it (both from being in them and listening in on them) and I’d agree that a change would be nice. But if free and open discussion is what you would like, then I don’t see that there is much to gain by posters telling eachother to get off the board – as you suggested in an earlier post - whilst ignoring the elephant in the room. It is no more interesting to read than the other catty posts and probably just fuels the flames.


Fair enough Rushy. It's not my intention to cause (more) conflict at all, I have enough of it at work.

Apologies to 299 old timer. You are entitled to your line of questions


----------



## Winot (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> Another thought: A Brixton Market loyalty card, but instead of the customers getting rewarded, traders could donate goods/produce to the Brixton Soup Kitchen or similar



You're on fire today!


----------



## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair enough Rushy. It's not my intention to cause (more) conflict at all, I have enough of it at work.
> 
> Apologies to 299 old timer. You are entitled to your line of questions



Ha, no problem. I just feel that to get at the cause of the decline of the street market one has to look in all areas. It's obviously not a Brixton only phenomena.


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

Dan U said:


> Yeah fair point. I lost signal on my phone and meant to edit to say more.
> 
> I was questioning the idea about farmers markets containing people pretending to be selling meat from farms and in fact selling it from the same wholesalers as tesco etc.
> 
> ...


I met a guy at the Herne Hill farmers market who was thinking about setting up a mobile slaughter house so that farms could have better control over meat they produce. It is definitely true for the sheep farmers I know that they are unable to sell direct. Everything goes to a slaughter house and that's the end of it. So to speak. Obviously there must be ways around it but I got the impression that it is quite difficult.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

I am in the last few days of my current job and have nothing much to do. Will be unemployed next week watch out


----------



## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> I am in the last few days of my current job and have nothing much to do. Will be unemployed next week watch out


What's that? You'd like to write for Brixton Buzz?

Consider yourself hired


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> Fair enough Rushy. It's not my intention to cause (more) conflict at all, I have enough of it at work.
> 
> Apologies to 299 old timer. You are entitled to your line of questions


I knew you'd be trouble from the moment you said you were coming back .


----------



## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> But who would finance that and provide the necessary resources (transport/logistics etc)? It's not like the market traders are raking it in.



If their business is quiet, surely they have time to consider other alternatives?


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## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> If their business is quiet, surely they have time to consider other alternatives?


Sorry, but I can't see how expecting them to fund manpower, delivery vehicles, packing materials, storage and assembly space - and all the related logistics to provide one-to-one home delivery in an area where they have no particular current expertise - is likely to help them in any way at all.


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## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

But that's exactly the same reason why I said that them selling to restaurant trade wouldn't necessarily be worth their while. 

The biggest profit margin is from buying wholesale, splitting it up and then selling retail. 

If even that's not working well at the moment (due to change in shopping habits) selling to restaurants won't alleviate the problem; they'll just be competing against an already established sector which meets restaurants needs, without the buying power.


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## editor (Nov 12, 2014)

snowy_again said:


> But that's exactly the same reason why I said that them selling to restaurant trade wouldn't necessarily be worth their while.
> 
> The biggest profit margin is from buying wholesale, splitting it up and then selling retail.


Except they'd get a regular customers buying in bulk, with all the extra discount possibilities that can bring. 

Not sure how that compares with them starting an entirely new door to door delivery service, mind.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> But who would finance that and provide the necessary resources (transport/logistics etc)? It's not like the market traders are raking it in.



I really like the idea of local deliveries, especially meat and fish.

But the logistics could be tricky.

It costs big supermarkets something like £25 to deliver an online order  - meaning that internet shoppers are heavily subsidised by those who journey to stores.


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## snowy_again (Nov 12, 2014)

But where do they store the bulk goods, and do the profits of doing that outweigh the cost of more travel, more staff, greater storage costs, launch a new strand of their business. How much of an £ increase is it compared to the restaurant driving 20 mins up the road and buying it direct? 

They're both changing a business model*

*I'm currently channelling that scene from Arrested Development


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## Dan U (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> No, I have no evidence beyond what I have read in various dubious papers and the like.
> 
> My points are these: Firstly, farmers' market sales are a sideline for most farms. A farm will not survive on them alone. Their meat is entering the supermarkets and butchery supply chain as well as these markets. Secondly, many sales in farmers' markets come from companies who are selling huge volumes in multiple farmers' markets and sell the same volume of produce at the weekend that some retail chains do. Finally, there is a massive pricing premium charged on goods sold at farmers' markets which is based on some phoney-romantic notion of agriculture. Buying from a supermarket or butcher is likely to be less expensive, more hygienic and more convenient.



Yeah ok that is a fair enough expansion. 
I definitely agree on buying from a local butcher, we use ours over any supermarket as much as possible. 

I don't tend to buy from farmers markets as they can be expensive but I do buy from our local normal market (usually fish and fruit and veg) and from farms directly -  if you know where to look and have a chest freezer (I don't sadly)  you can get half a butchered pig or lamb for about 100 quid which is about as cheap as buying meat gets. Not much use in Brixton though I know. 

Usual squabbling aside this is an interesting thread.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Except they'd get a regular customers buying in bulk, with all the extra discount possibilities that can bring.
> 
> Not sure how that compares with them starting an entirely new door to door delivery service, mind.



At least the latter would be serving their target customers


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> What's that? You'd like to write for Brixton Buzz?
> 
> Consider yourself hired



You never know!


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## sleaterkinney (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> No, I have no evidence beyond what I have read in various dubious papers and the like.


Ok.


> My points are these: Firstly, farmers' market sales are a sideline for most farms. A farm will not survive on them alone. Their meat is entering the supermarkets and butchery supply chain as well as these markets. Secondly, many sales in farmers' markets come from companies who are selling huge volumes in multiple farmers' markets and sell the same volume of produce at the weekend that some retail chains do. Finally, there is a massive pricing premium charged on goods sold at farmers' markets which is based on some phoney-romantic notion of agriculture. Buying from a supermarket or butcher is likely to be less expensive, more hygienic and more convenient.


Firstly, I've never heard anyone claim otherwise? .Secondly - do you have any evidence of this? The people at farmers markets look like small operations to me. Thirdly, I shop there when I can as it cuts out the supermarkets and their price gouging. There is no romantic notion of agriculture, that's what food looks like, not the sanitised stuff you get in the shops.


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

sleaterkinney said:


> Ok.
> 
> Firstly, I've never heard anyone claim otherwise? .Secondly - do you have any evidence of this? The people at farmers markets look like small operations to me. Thirdly, I shop there when I can as it cuts out the supermarkets and their price gouging. There is no romantic notion of agriculture, that's what food looks like, not the sanitised stuff you get in the shops.


At point of sale it all looks the same! What I'm talking about is a banner with "Holy Farm" on it and some man in a flat cap selling the meat. The lovely rural way of life.

I'll shop at butchers where I can as I can get advice off the butcher and it's often less expensive than supermarkets. I'll go to the MFC on Streatham Hill or, for a treat, DuGard and Daughters or Rose on Lordship Lane. A lot less expensive than farmers markets. They are still going to be there next week if there is a good poisoning scare and there is proper hand washing, storage, pest control facilities. For a bit of mince or some sausages, I'll go to the supermarket.


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

Dugard and daughters is considerably more expensive than Boarstall Meat at the Brixton Farmer's Market. You seem to be stating your opinion as though it's fact.


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

I reckon the proposed makeover for Electric Avenue could help. The market does not need to go premium but I don't think it's future is in competing for lowest prices. They cannot compete with Aldi or Lidl. They need to make it more about the experience. With a little tidying up, consolidation of existing offerings and diversification into new product, arm  all the traders with contractless card readers for  small payments, put in fabric canopies to make it more comfortable to go from store to store in poor weather,  open a little later and suddenly Electric Avenue offers as much as if not more than a large supermarket but  with 10 times the personality.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Dugard and daughters is considerably more expensive than Boarstall Meat at the Brixton Farmer's Market. You seem to be stating your opinion as though it's fact.



Dugard and daughters is more expensive that the farmers market, but it's a great example of a well researched new independent business catering well for local shoppers. 

Good location, a wide range of produce to compliment its core business and long opening hours to take advantage of commuters


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## cuppa tee (Nov 12, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I reckon the proposed makeover for Electric Avenue could help. The market does not need to go premium but I don't think it's future is in competing for lowest prices. They cannot compete with Aldi or Lidl. They need to make it more about the experience. With a little tidying up, consolidation of existing offerings and diversification into new product, arm  all the traders with contractless card readers for  small payments, put in fabric canopies to make it more comfortable to go from store to store in poor weather,  open a little later and suddenly Electric Avenue offers as much as if not more than a large supermarket but  with 10 times the personality.



tbh that sounds fucking grim, like spitalfields


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## tompound (Nov 12, 2014)

I did a bit of digging around old research that the Brixton Pound carried out about 2-3 years ago. Quality of produce and not supplying the right items seems to be the issue for a lot of the restaurants (I don't know which restaurants were asked but I am happy to guess that we're talking those in and around the indoor markets). So on the B2B side of things, while I am sure that there are still lots of small bits that businesses could source from the markets (tinned stuff, cleaning products, etc), it will require a shift in what the market traders are selling if they are to properly scale this up. This of course is not across the board and there will be examples of some traders and some restaurants for whom this can work, but more widely this appears to be a barrier. 

Retail to customers is where I think there is a much easier way to boost trade. Is it really more convenient to trek it up to Tesco or Lidl, or pay over the odds for limited options in a mini Sainsburys? I think that lots of people could be swayed to shop at the market, and some of the suggestions in this thread like slightly longer working hours (though I am generally uncomfortable expecting market traders who get up at silly o'clock to work later, perhaps this is something that also needs thinking about), more e-payment facilities, and maybe better signage about what traders have in-store, would be a start.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> tbh that sounds fucking grim, like spitalfields



It need not be


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> Dugard and daughters is considerably more expensive than Boarstall Meat at the Brixton Farmer's Market.



They don't sell shrink wrapped meat out of the back of a Transit van either.



> You seem to be stating your opinion as though it's fact.



That is all that anyone does! I don't claim to be an expert, just to have opinions. And there is no way that the farmers' market offers value. Whether the stalls are expensive to rent or just that they need to charge a lot because they have to make their profit in one or two days only, I don't know.

But I avoid them like the plague.


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> tbh that sounds fucking grim, like spitalfields



Yep. Identical. We could even rename it Spitalfields so that there is no doubt.


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## Thimble Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> They don't sell shrink wrapped meat out of the back of a Transit van either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I buy mince regularly from the farmers market regularly because it's cheaper than the supermarket equivalent.


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I buy mince regularly from the farmers market regularly because it's cheaper than the supermarket equivalent.


I must just not have had good experiences at such markets. If there is a German stand, I might buy a Black Forest ham or the like, but it will be expensive. I wouldn't buy anything which can be bought elsewhere, and I reckon DuGard and daughters is priced favourably compared to the market in Herne Hill and is as pleasant an experience.


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## cuppa tee (Nov 12, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Yep. Identical. We could even rename it Spitalfields so that there is no doubt.


lol, I flung in Spitalfields as one example of grim rather than the only example, nonetheless what you are suggesting as the solution would actually be the end of the market as we know it to all intents
sooner or later it would only be open evenings and weekends and would cater to a completely different demographic......if I was a cynic I might think the pop up night markets that are being trialled in the square will one day move into electric lane


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> ....if I was a cynic...


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 12, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I reckon the proposed makeover for Electric Avenue could help. The market does not need to go premium but I don't think it's future is in competing for lowest prices. They cannot compete with Aldi or Lidl. They need to make it more about the experience. With a little tidying up, consolidation of existing offerings and diversification into new product, arm  all the traders with contractless card readers for  small payments, put in fabric canopies to make it more comfortable to go from store to store in poor weather,  open a little later and suddenly Electric Avenue offers as much as if not more than a large supermarket but  with 10 times the personality.



I think diversification is key. There are too many stalls selling exactly the same thing


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> They don't sell shrink wrapped meat out of the back of a Transit van either.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I haven't tried Dugard and Daughters but I have no problem with the quality of the meat I buy at the Farmer's Market. And you have been pontificating on the market experience like you know something about farming, which it transpires you do not!


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## Ms T (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> I must just not have had good experiences at such markets. If there is a German stand, I might buy a Black Forest ham or the like, but it will be expensive. I wouldn't buy anything which can be bought elsewhere, and I reckon DuGard and daughters is priced favourably compared to the market in Herne Hill and is as pleasant an experience.


But double the price of the other butcher in Herne Hill, and more expensive than Waitrose (by some margin) for deli items.


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> I haven't tried Dugard and Daughters but I have no problem with the quality of the meat I buy at the Farmer's Market. And you have been pontificating on the market experience like you know something about farming, which it transpires you do not!


I don't know about the specifics of farming or retailing, but I do understand simple numbers.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 12, 2014)

Become a veggie! You only have to worry about fruit and veg prices then


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## Thimble Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

Smick said:


> I must just not have had good experiences at such markets. If there is a German stand, I might buy a Black Forest ham or the like, but it will be expensive. I wouldn't buy anything which can be bought elsewhere, and I reckon DuGard and daughters is priced favourably compared to the market in Herne Hill and is as pleasant an experience.



I find the herne hill market to be more expensive than the station road farmers market. I also go towards the end bc you can get stuff on deals. I get three packs of mince for a fiver. Individually priced, and earlier in the day, they would be more than a tenner.

Some wider ramblings: I do most of my shopping (veg and tinned stuff) from the normal market and surrounding shops because it's so much cheaper than supermarket. I used to find market shopping a bit daunting because I wasn't used to it, how to check for freshness etc.

Supermarkets seem easier for people for reasons already stated but also because everything has dates on and it's quite a sanitised experience iykwim. I think if there was a way to show people how easy and cheap market shopping is that could help encourage people back to the market. I don't think it's an easy thing to do tho. And with more wealthy people moving into brixton they don't 'need' to shop in the market because they can afford to shop elsewhere...


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## Smick (Nov 12, 2014)

Ms T said:


> But double the price of the other butcher in Herne Hill, and more expensive than Waitrose (by some margin) for deli items.


The other butcher is good. I've bought some bits and pieces in there and the older guy is happy to talk about how it should be cooked. 

DuGard and daughters is good for a treat. I considered their three bird roast for last Christmas but it was just too pricey.


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## billythefish (Nov 12, 2014)

I really miss my days of working from home when I could browse the markets and shops of Brixton of an afternoon. Sadly, I am now rarely back before 7 pm. And when I am, there are hoards of people making their way from the tube to various bus stops, right past the main entrance to the market - which is usually full of street sweepers and empty boxes. What an incredible missed opportunity to tap into such footfall.

So, later opening is one idea already mentioned, but I also think the market needs to appear more 'user friendly' to those habitually shopping with the big supermarkets. My suggestion would be to put up signage at all the entrances with a map showing where different stalls and products are located. These can be signs that are changeable as-and-when stallholders change or have their days off - I've seen examples in shopping malls like Bicester Village. These signs won't only show where things are, but advertise what is available (I had lived here eight years before I discovered Nour FFS! - and that was thanks to these boards). 

I also think it would help if stallholders had names on their stalls - so people can refer to 'so-and-so's deal on King Edwards' and know where to go. And perhaps invest in card-readers rather than taking cash only.

The bottom line is that I already see Brixton as a giant supermarket because I now know where things are and what the deals are like, but it took years to reach that state, and it could be made much easier for new-comers / passers by.


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## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

Surrounding market shops need to be buggy friendly  (Put this point in for Rushy  ) Really difficult to shop with push chair in quite a few smallish shops. I  often avoid one of my local shops which has a great selection of spices and fresh veg because it is difficult to navigate.


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## Thimble Queen (Nov 12, 2014)

billythefish Oh your map idea gave me a linked idea maybe some kind of little foldable illustrated map that could be given out to shoppers. Something that would fold down into the size of an oyster holder... it might not have any mileage and would obviously cost to produce but I thought I'd share it in case.


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## leanderman (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Surrounding market shops need to be buggy friendly  (Put this point in for Rushy  ) Really difficult to shop with push chair in quite a few smallish shops. I  often avoid one of my local shops which has a great selection of spices and fresh veg because it is difficult to navigate.



Nour can be quite a squeeze!


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## boohoo (Nov 12, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Nour can be quite a squeeze!



Trapped in Nour - the Movie!


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## Crispy (Nov 12, 2014)

editor said:


> Except they'd get a regular customers buying in bulk, with all the extra discount possibilities that can bring.


As a market trader, you want to buy in bulk and sell in small quantities with a markup on each sale. Buying in bulk and selling in bulk doesn't have much profit in it. 


leanderman said:


> Nour can be quite a squeeze!


Unless there's a third exit hiding in the back somewhere, it's really dodgy from a fire safety POV


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## Rushy (Nov 12, 2014)

boohoo said:


> Surrounding market shops need to be buggy friendly  (Put this point in for Rushy  ) Really difficult to shop with push chair in quite a few smallish shops. I  often avoid one of my local shops which has a great selection of spices and fresh veg because it is difficult to navigate.


You're missing the point boohoo. We're trying to come up with ways to _help_ the traders.


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## snowy_again (Nov 13, 2014)

The suggestion about tidying up the Boots / Iceland entrance is a very good one, as is getting Lambeth to do some better street cleaning, deep clean of the cobbles / paving / fixing the dirty water filled pot holes.

Can we change the thread title please?


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

poptyping said:


> I find the herne hill market to be more expensive than the station road farmers market. I also go towards the end bc you can get stuff on deals. I get three packs of mince for a fiver. Individually priced, and earlier in the day, they would be more than a tenner.
> 
> Some wider ramblings: I do most of my shopping (veg and tinned stuff) from the normal market and surrounding shops because it's so much cheaper than supermarket. I used to find market shopping a bit daunting because I wasn't used to it, how to check for freshness etc.
> 
> Supermarkets seem easier for people for reasons already stated but also because everything has dates on and it's quite a sanitised experience iykwim. I think if there was a way to show people how easy and cheap market shopping is that could help encourage people back to the market. I don't think it's an easy thing to do tho. And with more wealthy people moving into brixton they don't 'need' to shop in the market because they can afford to shop elsewhere...


Lidl have that board outside which outlines offers. Something similar could work at the Iceland entrance. Daily price comparison to Tesco Sainsburys and Iceland for a variety of products, and who stocks them, could help.

I think I mentioned something like this when we were discussing the market a couple of years ago. Kind of pointless unless someone is liaising with the traders federation.


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## snowy_again (Nov 13, 2014)

The HH Sunday market meat traders are grumpy and never up for any haggling on prices. I gave up on them ages ago.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 13, 2014)

Crispy said:


> As a market trader, you want to buy in bulk and sell in small quantities with a markup on each sale. Buying in bulk and selling in bulk doesn't have much profit in it.


They can buy in bulk and sell to restaurants in fair quantities but not in bulk. So they still make money and the restaurant get a discount too. 

In West Cork this summer I was talking to a day boat crab and lobster fisherman. He was telling me he supplied some locals with mackerel too. On their own it wouldn't be worth going out for the mackerel. But as he is out there anyway and there was some demand he brings them back. His exact words were "it's not a lot of money but it's a few bob". 

I see the same analogy with the markets and the restaurants. If the traders are going to New Covent Garden themselves, they may as we'll fill some restaurants orders too. They won't make a lot of money but it might cover their petrol expenses. It all counts


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

Mr Retro said:


> They can buy in bulk and sell to restaurants in fair quantities but not in bulk. So they still make money and the restaurant get a discount too.
> 
> In West Cork this summer I was talking to a day boat crab and lobster fisherman. He was telling me he supplied some locals with mackerel too. On their own it wouldn't be worth going out for the mackerel. But as he is out there anyway and there was some demand he brings them back. His exact words were "it's not a lot of money but it's a few bob".


In Black Sod the crabbers often  just leave  them in buckets for the locals to collect. Sadly I hate mackerel.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> I was talking to a couple of Electric Avenue traders earlier today and they were saying that they're really struggling now



I think (without skimming through the whole thread again) that this is the only mention of how the market traders are actually doing financially. Is it the same across the board, or are some doing better than others?


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> I think (without skimming through the whole thread again) that this is the only mention of how the market traders are actually doing financially. Is it the same across the board, or are some doing better than others?


I've spoken to quite a few and all report lean times.


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

How many small veg traders are there? And how many restaurants? Anyone have any idea?


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> How many small veg traders are there? And how many restaurants? Anyone have any idea?


I was going to try and have a count up tomorrow, I will report back!


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I was going to try and have a count up tomorrow, I will report back!


remember to take a pencil and paper to help you avoid double counting.


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## Winot (Nov 13, 2014)

And don't mistakenly compare apples with oranges.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> I've spoken to quite a few and all report lean times.


There always seems to be a downturn in spending between the back of summer and December, I know of a few bars and cafe's that are experiencing a lean spell, The owners put this down to the pressures put on people with christmas being around the corner and most people only having 2 pay days left before the new year arrives.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> There always seems to be a downturn in spending between the back of summer and December, I know of a few bars and cafe's that are experiencing a lean spell, The owners put this down to the pressures put on people with christmas being around the corner and most people only having 2 pay days left before the new year arrives.


For sure, but I've been hearing this for some time now, whatever the season.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 13, 2014)

Winot said:


> And don't mistakenly compare apples with oranges.


Don't worry, I know my onions.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> How many small veg traders are there? And how many restaurants? Anyone have any idea?


We've got way over a 100 restaurant reviews on B Buzz.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> For sure, but I've been hearing this for some time now, whatever the season.


Yes, Also peoples shopping habits have changed dramatically in recent times,Sadly to the detriment of the independents! Big business seems to be wiping the floor with sole traders at a relentless pace.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> remember to take a pencil and paper to help you avoid double counting.


Yes dad


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## cuppa tee (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Lidl


Kind of ironic that this thread keeps referring to Lidl when their latest ad on telly tries to conjure up the illusion they are like a market so markets must be doing something right
as an aside I will take this opportunity to relate one favourite memory of Brixton Market and why I like it.....
Standing in line for my weekly veg shop
the woman in front of me reached the head of the queue
she asked the guy serving if he had any_ jacket _potatoes
he apologised and said no, he only sold _normal_ potatoes but she might find what she was looking for in M and S.... you don't get that sort of wit in Tesco's


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

cuppa tee said:


> Kind of ironic that this thread keeps referring to Lidl when their latest ad on telly tries to conjure up the illusion they are like a market so markets must be doing something right
> as an aside I will take this opportunity to relate one favourite memory of Brixton Market and why I like it.....
> Standing in line for my weekly veg shop
> the woman in front of me reached the head of the queue
> ...


Actually, when trying to buy a broom and giant African snails  in Tesco,  I was advised by a manager to try the market! I'm not keen on Tesco bit there are nice helpful people everywhere. 

OK. I made up the snails bit.


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## Ms T (Nov 13, 2014)

I was in Mama Lan today and it says on their menu that they get their meat from Moen and vegetables from Brixton market.

Also, the price of purple sprouting broccoli on the market was the same as at the farmer's market on Sunday.


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## aussw9 (Nov 13, 2014)

I'd be interested to know what the local trader that you had a conversation with has done in order to engage with the local restaurants apart from what he has stated an ability to match prices?

Has the trader or gone out and investigated what ingredients and supplies restaurants may be using? If he currently doesn't stock them is he willing to change his business in order to open up an opportunity to improve his business?

Is he as flexible as current wholesalers in delivery times, payment terms? Is his produce going to be a consistent standard? How is he going about proving that he is going to be a better option than their current suppliers?

Its a big gamble for a restaurant to change suppliers and I'd want to be very certain of who I am going into business with. Price is only one factor that a business has to consider when selecting its suppliers.

Personally I find the whole idea that the restaurants being the solution (as they are not the market stall holders target market) strange. They should be only a small portion of who the electric avenue guys should be targeting. Perhaps market stall holders should be looking at visitors to the market as potential customers. Heck I usually pop via the farmers market on a Sunday after grabbing a morning coffee. Why? Better variety and produce. This without blowing the budget.

I agree with a lot of the sentiments here, that there is no differentiation in products, quality, service or shopping experience coupled with hours that arent convenient with a lot of locals.

This is being looked at backwards. I couldn't think of a reason that a successful small restaurant would change their formula to aid another business. It should be the market traders looking to change their offering to succeed. 

Also, ive got a vote for a change of thread name. Just seems another swipe at some small businesses being to blame for all of Brixtons woes.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

aussw9 said:


> I'd be interested to know what the local trader that you had a conversation with has done in order to engage with the local restaurants apart from what he has stated an ability to match prices?


I've already posted up what I know. At some point I hope to get a proper interview, but instead of relying on me, why not go down and ask a few traders yourself? 

Perhaps the ones I spoke to were the exception and the rest are minting it.


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## Boudicca (Nov 13, 2014)

I think I've mentioned this before, but when I had a shop in Granville Arcade (a long time ago, I am old school nu-Brixton), a lot of the veg stalls were owned by the same bloke. He was actually the largest importer from the Caribbean to the UK and quite a big cheese.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

Ms T said:


> I was in Mama Lan today and it says on their menu that they get their meat from Moen and vegetables from Brixton market.


That's good to hear.

I'm really stretched at the moment, but if anyone here fancies taking on the task of asking local restaurants if they use produce from the markets, and - more importantly - find out what's stopping them if not (and asking what they'd like to see changed for them to do so) - then we may come up with something that may prove useful.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 13, 2014)

If the idea of local restaurants buying foodstuffs from market traders actually happens, do you think all foodstuff selling market traders will be involved so all get a fair share, or will it be the province of a select few?


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

299 old timer said:


> If the idea of local restaurants buying foodstuffs from market traders actually happens, do you think all foodstuff selling market traders will be involved so all get a fair share, or will it be the province of a select few?


Are you really this desperate to nitpick your way into some pointless argument?

I imagine the ones who want to trade with the restaurants will put naturally themselves forward, and if they can offer the right price, the right goods and the right service, then they'll become part of this (sigh) "select few." 
How else do you expect it to happen?


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> That's good to hear.
> 
> I'm really stretched at the moment, but if anyone here fancies taking on the task of asking local restaurants if they use produce from the markets, and - more importantly - find out what's stopping them if not (and asking what they'd like to see changed for them to do so) - then we may come up with something that may prove useful.


Surely this is a job for your trader buddy? If he's not prepared or able to speak to businesses that is probably a large part of the problem. These are, after all, the folk he wants  to deal with on a daily basis.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> Surely this is a job for your trader buddy? If he's not prepared or able to speak to businesses that is probably a large part of the problem. These are, after all, the folk he wants  to deal with on a daily basis.


The problem is that he's not in the best of health, and hardly has the time to go around doing surveys of all the traders around him. That's where I thought we could help rather than just throwing it back at him.


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> The problem is that he's not in the best of health, and hardly has the time to go around doing surveys of all the traders around him. That's where I thought we could help rather than just throwing it back at him.


In all seriousness, sympathy to him . But if he's in ill health and does not have time to meet potential new clients , he doesn't sound like an ideal bet for a business to rely on, do you think?


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> In all seriousness, sympathy to him . But if he's in ill health and does not have time to meet potential new clients , he doesn't sound like an ideal bet for a business to rely on, do you think?


Oh for fuck's sake.  He manages to get into work every day to work long hours and I'd wager that that he works a damn sight harder than you do.


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> Oh for fuck's sake.  He manages to get into work every day to work long hours and I'd wager that that he works a damn sight harder than you do.



That's terribly unfair. You know very well just how taxing it can be flouncing around Brixton all day with a laptop and pda, sipping flat whites and posting clever stuff on Urban.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> That's terribly unfair. You know very well just how taxing it can be flouncing around Brixton all day with a laptop and pda, sipping flat whites and posting clever stuff on Urban.


I guess at least you're now showing off your true colours here.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> That's terribly unfair. You know very well just how taxing it can be flouncing around Brixton all day with a laptop and pda, sipping flat whites and posting clever stuff on Urban.


perhaps you should try posting clever stuff on urban one day. you never know, you might be good at it.


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## Onket (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you should try posting clever stuff on urban one day. you never know, you might be good at it.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Onket said:


>


there's scant danger of you posting anything clever.


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## Onket (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> there's scant danger of you posting anything clever.


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## Rushy (Nov 13, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> perhaps you should try posting clever stuff on urban one day. you never know, you might be good at it.


I would certainly never kid myself that I could ever come up with a riposte so very clever as that. And so quickly too. But you inspire me to keep trying.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 13, 2014)

Rushy said:


> I would certainly never kid myself that I could ever come up with a riposte so very clever as that. And so quickly too. But you inspire me to keep trying.


and maybe one day you'll succeed.


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## 299 old timer (Nov 13, 2014)

editor said:


> Are you really this desperate to nitpick your way into some pointless argument?



Not particularly, but as I pondered over the situation, and your efforts to get something started for the traders via this thread, I wondered how it would work on the ground. A formal agreement between the respective parties? An ad hoc agreement? What about competition to drive a harder deal? These are some of the thoughts that entered my mind.
Clearly there is a lot of work to be done still, tompound said earlier in the thread that he hopes that the respective parties can come together for the mutual benefit of both, which is great.


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## editor (Nov 13, 2014)

I quite like the way this crowd-funded pop up lot make _not_ buying locally a virtue!



> Bucking the trend for only using local suppliers for ingredients, Beehive Place will act as a dramatic showcase for producers across the length and breadth of the UK, delivering amazing produce from farmers to fisherman to foragers, cheese-makers and beyond.
> http://grubclub.com/beehive-place-dinner-beehive-place/1853


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## Mr Retro (Nov 14, 2014)

Boudicca said:


> I think I've mentioned this before, but when I had a shop in Granville Arcade (a long time ago, I am old school nu-Brixton), a lot of the veg stalls were owned by the same bloke. He was actually the largest importer from the Caribbean to the UK and quite a big cheese.


Interesting to read that because we were only discussing this in The Canterbury tonight and somebody who knows what they are talking about told me this too. It was news to me. As was the fact this practice is no longer allowed and now you have to staff your own stall.


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## Mr Retro (Nov 14, 2014)

editor said:


> I quite like the way this crowd-funded pop up lot make _not_ buying locally a virtue!


I don't mind that per se because by this I think they mean they are not being supplied by farms etc. within x radius of miles of the pop up, but are taking the best ingredients they can find in the UK. 

I don't mind this because in an ideal world where all the restaurants in Brixton only used the Brixton market traders, they wouldn't be using local suppliers either. Probably far from it given most ingredients would come from New Covent Garden anyway. But they would be using local traders, thus keeping the market alive.

It's actually likely that pop up will have less food miles in total than if restaurants were served totally by the traders.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 14, 2014)

I had a quick count up whilst in the market today,,,

Electric Avenue-  4 actual fruit and veg stalls,  12 meat and fish outlets, Many of these also have fruit and veg available. There was 22 stalls trading today at 2pm.

Market Row- 4 outlets selling fruit and veg,  4 meat and fish outlets, 17 cafes/ eateries.

Station Road- 1 veg stall,  5 other stalls selling cooked food, There was 15 stalls in total at 2pm ish.

Popes Road- 2 veg stalls plus 1 shop front with veg, There was 14 stalls in total mainly selling clothes.

Atlantic Road- 5 outlets with veg and other foods, 6 meat and fish outlets many also selling a smaller selection of veg.

Granville Arcade- 3 meat and fish outlets, 6 veg outlets, 29 cafes/eateries. 

7,209 beards and about 9.4 million prams.


Disclaimer, I may have missed a few eateries in Granville because it was very difficult to get down one particular bit.


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## boohoo (Nov 14, 2014)

SarfLondoner you leave out the pram count!!!


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 14, 2014)

boohoo said:


> SarfLondoner you leave out the pram count!!!


I was in one of them


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 14, 2014)

boohoo said:


> SarfLondoner you leave out the pram count!!!


Lambeth have missed a trick here, In austere times, Pram bays and permits could be a good little earner.


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## leanderman (Nov 14, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I had a quick count up whilst in the market today,,,
> 
> Electric Avenue-  4 actual fruit and veg stalls,  12 meat and fish outlets, Many of these also have fruit and veg available. There was 22 stalls trading today at 2pm.
> 
> ...



I always wonder what happens to the unsold food.


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## SarfLondoner (Nov 14, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I always wonder what happens to the unsold food.


I would like to think the Local soup kitchens get it passed on to them.


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## editor (Nov 14, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I always wonder what happens to the unsold food.


Any wastage is terrible but what happens in the street markets will be pale into significance compared to the obscene amounts of food waste generated by supermarkets:


> It is estimated Britain wastes 15 million tonnes of food each year.
> 
> The bid to dramatically reduce our waste mountain follows Tesco putting its hands up and admitting it binned 28,500 tonnes of grub in the first six months of last year alone.
> 
> ...





> Supermarkets urged to scrap buy-one-get-one-free as shoppers waste 222m tons of food a year
> 
> Supermarkets and food retailers are today accused of failing to take responsibility for the UK's food-waste crisis, contributing to 15 million tons of produce being thrown away unnecessarily every year.
> 
> ...


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## T & P (Nov 14, 2014)

SarfLondoner said:


> I had a quick count up whilst in the market today,,,
> 
> Electric Avenue-  4 actual fruit and veg stalls,  12 meat and fish outlets, Many of these also have fruit and veg available. There was 22 stalls trading today at 2pm.
> 
> ...


 That sounds like _a lot_ of competing traders in a small area. Could it actually be that since the arrival of the supermarkets we have reach saturation levels, and there simply isn't enough demand to keep every trader in business? In which case it is only inevitable that a few traders will fail eventually, until demand can sustain the remaining traders.


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## shakespearegirl (Nov 24, 2014)

I was reading about the restaurant at the English Market in Cork on the weekend. 

http://www.farmgate.ie/corkhome.htm

Their website is pretty crap, but it seems they source the ingredients from the market below. 

I've been to the market and its a busy working market, selling a huge range of goods from fresh food to tatt. Also a tourist attraction. 

How about a restaurant with all the ingredients sourced from the market?


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## Mr Retro (Nov 24, 2014)

shakespearegirl said:


> I was reading about the restaurant at the English Market in Cork on the weekend.
> 
> http://www.farmgate.ie/corkhome.htm
> 
> ...


That market is brilliant. Though I'm biased I think it's the best market in the world and I've been in many. The farmgate cafe is fantastic too. When I go home to Cork it's the first place I make a beeline for.

This is a radio podcast of the English market in Cork, well worth listening to if you love markets and the history of them: http://www.rte.ie/radio1/doconone/2...umentary-corks-hidden-village-english-market/

Kay Harte the owner of the Farmgate is interviewed and she rattles off where every ingredient in her restaurant comes from. It's inspiring and gives me goosebumps. It's how a market can be successful.


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