# Racial observations in kids TV drama: Grange Hill (1978)



## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

So I was watching Grange Hill the other day (series 1, ep 9) and I found it interesting to see how racial attitudes were dealt with, how that was reflected on TV, and how is may have reflected on attitudes around Britain at the time. Not least because unlike Love Thy Neighbour, Rising Damp et al. it was a drama rather than a comedy, and even more it was a children's drama.

In short, in this episode Trisha Yates and Benny Green are bunking off. Trisha because she was reprimanded for wearing makeup, Benny because he was being bullied for being black and poor. They end up bumping into each other in the civic centre and chatting about their situations.

What I found interesting was how saying 'coloured' was seen as a sincerely polite way to describe someone who is not white - something I also thought to be the case myself until a few years ago. But that it was used so casually in Grange Hill I thought was interesting and seemed to reinforce that this was just a general term of expression that was accepted back in the day and I wondered how this came to change?

Also noteworthy was the way Trisha says to Benny (in jest) "It's not your fault you're a nig nog"... to which Benny replies "It's not your fault you're a honky" - at which they both laugh. Would this have been acceptable now? It's sort of portrayed as light joshing on her part, but with no malice or racism intended. Perhaps its seen as less offensive because they're both kids or perhaps racism used in jest was more de rigueur in 1978. Seemingly it passed by without incident in '78 but I imagine this is the sort of thing that the Mail and the Beeb start campaigns about these days and ends up with a series pulled and heads rolling.

Anyway, interesting I thought.

From about 17:19



Also, how much does (Old Mitch) Mr. Mitchell look and sound like a relation of David Cameron?


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## zoooo (Sep 3, 2013)

God, I love watching old Grange Hills.


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## Athos (Sep 3, 2013)

I think there's more chance of the BBC reviving 'Jim'll Fix It' than allowing a children's programme containing the word 'nig-nog', nowadays.


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## Belushi (Sep 3, 2013)

They had a race riot at one point, old school Grange Hill was fucking excellent tv.


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## zoooo (Sep 3, 2013)

I seem to remember them addressing racism quite a lot through the '80s.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

Above example is from 78 though and seems to be lumped in with a wider storyline about Benny getting picked on for being poor. It's almost like the racism wasn't the bigger issue (compounded by the casual language of Trisha and Benny: "coloured" "nig nog" "honky" etc)


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## DotCommunist (Sep 3, 2013)

Coloured is not cool these days is it? I remember being told 'I'm not coloured I'm black' by an adult in the late 90's. Although it seems to be creeping back via americanism 'people of colour'


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

I picked up "coloured" from my mum who always used it with the kindest of intentions which is also how I only ever intended it to come across when young. Only later on the internets I found out it wasn't cool so it became 'black' 'asian' etc.


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## editor (Sep 3, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> What I found interesting was how saying 'coloured' was seen as a sincerely polite way to describe someone who is not white - something I also thought to be the case myself until a few years ago. But that it was used so casually in Grange Hill I thought was interesting and seemed to reinforce that this was just a general term of expression that was accepted back in the day and I wondered how this came to change?


I sometimes wonder if some old people - who finally realised that 'coloured' was not an acceptable term - now get confused now by the recent popularity of the US-tastic  'people of colour' phrase.


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## Stigmata (Sep 3, 2013)

My grandad said 'coloured'. Also 'Jew-boys'. He was from the East End so half his childhood friends were the latter


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## 8115 (Sep 3, 2013)

1978 is 35 years ago though.


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## Manter (Sep 3, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> Coloured is not cool these days is it? I remember being told 'I'm not coloured I'm black' by an adult in the late 90's. Although it seems to be creeping back via americanism 'people of colour'


Americans tell me 'coloured' is not cool because we are all a colour, just different one. Whereas 'people of colour' does seem to be widely used over there and sounds as odd to me on the same basis. But they also often use African American to mean black, much to the irritation of one of my colleagues who kept going 'I'm British! And my family is from Jamaica!'


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

editor said:


> I sometimes wonder if some old people - who finally realised that 'coloured' was not an acceptable term - now get confused now by the recent popularity of the US-tastic  'people of colour' phrase.



People of colour is a new one on me. It sounds very right on American. Not sure if I like it.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> Americans tell me 'coloured' is not cool because we are all a colour, just different one. Whereas 'people of colour' does seem to be widely used over there and sounds as odd to me on the same basis. But they also often use African American to mean black, much to the irritation of one of my colleagues who kept going 'I'm British! And my family is from Jamaica!'



I've also heard of a dislike to the term 'African American' where many people simply prefer the term 'American' or 'Black'

I can see their point, I mean what are white Americans, 'Euro Americans'?


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## Cribynkle (Sep 3, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> What I found interesting was how saying 'coloured' was seen as a sincerely polite way to describe someone who is not white - something I also thought to be the case myself until a few years ago. But that it was used so casually in Grange Hill I thought was interesting and seemed to reinforce that this was just a general term of expression that was accepted back in the day and I wondered how this came to change?


I remember the headmaster at primary school in the early 80s telling us that it was politest to say someone was coloured rather than black. But he was about 102 and we were in the wilds of Cornwall


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 3, 2013)

Cribynkle said:


> I remember the headmaster at primary school in the early 80s telling us that it was politest to say someone was coloured rather than black. But he was about 102 and we were in the wilds of Cornwall



I bet he wasn't the only one who thought that way. I feel a bit sorry for these people with the best of intentions being inadvertently offensive.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> People of colour is a new one on me. It sounds very right on American. Not sure if I like it.



IME it's more likely to be used by white folk wanting to come across as all enlightened and stuff than it is to be self-applied by people of whatever colour it is the phrase tangentally refers to.

I personally don't often find myself needing to refer to all non-white people as a single homogenous demographic, so I have little use for phrases like this.


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## Manter (Sep 3, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> I've also heard of a dislike to the term 'African American' where many people simply prefer the term 'American' or 'Black'
> 
> I can see their point, I mean what are white Americans, 'Euro Americans'?


Yeah, agree. It's potentially complicated. I tend to use whatever terminology people like to use about themselves, iyswim- if someone wants to be called Cuban American, Hispanic, Cuban in exile, American, liberated Cuban, Latino, Latin American, I'll go with it. I'll let academics and the government debate race vs nationality vs ethnicity without my involvement!


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 3, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> IME it's more likely to be used by white folk wanting to come across as all enlightened and stuff than it is to be self-applied by people of whatever colour it is the phrase tangentally refers to.



Nah, it's used by a lot of black people too over there, depends on the context. Also see: WoC = women of colour, used a lot in feminist circles.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2013)

Manter said:


> Yeah, agree. It's potentially complicated. I tend to use whatever terminology people like to use about themselves, iyswim- if someone wants to be called Cuban American, Hispanic, Cuban in exile, American, liberated Cuban, Latino, Latin American, I'll go with it. I'll let academics and the government debate race vs nationality vs ethnicity without my involvement!



Yeah, but this approach requires actually paying attention to people and treating them as individuals. Some people struggle with that concept and prefer to have one big category to shove everyone into instead. Whatever noncey name for this category happens to be de rigeur this week, it's really just a synonym for the word 'them', implying as it does an 'us' which is separate and distinct.


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## SpookyFrank (Sep 3, 2013)

Vintage Paw said:


> Nah, it's used by a lot of black people too over there, depends on the context. Also see: WoC = women of colour, used a lot in feminist circles.



I still hate it.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 3, 2013)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah, but this approach requires actually paying attention to people and treating them as individuals. Some people struggle with that concept and prefer to have one big category to shove everyone into instead. Whatever noncey name for this category happens to be de rigeur this week, it's really just a synonym for the word 'them', implying as it does an 'us' which is separate and distinct.



While I agree about treating people as individuals (and agree with Manter - I see no reason to do anything other than to refer to someone as they want to be referred to), the truth is that most people at some point or another refer to themselves as belonging to a particular community when talking about issues that relate to them as a part of said community. And when they do that, they'll use a particular name for that community. This isn't just woolly liberal white people picking catch-all names for 'others' - this is also people who think of themselves as a part of a community identifying what that community is (for them).

Now, there are plenty of ways we can critique why people choose the names they choose, but generally this isn't just a one-way street of oppressive white people lumping all 'others' into handy little reference groups. When that does happen, and it happens all the time, then it's of course important to point that out, but people of colour (my handy little catch-all for non-white people, used intentionally here) are allowed to name themselves and identify with communities if they want and how they want.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 3, 2013)

dunno really.

in terms of the "them and us" thing, when the "majority" stops seeing minorities as a "them", then minorities will be less likely to regard themselves as an "us"

i don't think we're quite at the post-racism / post-homophiobia / post trans-phobia (and so on) utopia just yet.


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## thriller (Sep 3, 2013)

1978. Year I was born.


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## Casually Red (Sep 3, 2013)

skyscraper101 said:


> I picked up "coloured" from my mum who always used it with the kindest of intentions which is also how I only ever intended it to come across when young. Only later on the internets I found out it wasn't cool so it became 'black' 'asian' etc.



it was definitely the pc term at the time, or considered as such . Bearing in mind what the distinctly  unpolite terms in common usage were .


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 3, 2013)

I know one or two older, generally well meaning but somewhat clueless, people who think it's not acceptable to say "black" in respect of a black person.

I don't quite understand why they think this, unless perhaps the message that it's not acceptable to refer to someone as a "black [insert expletive here]" has been misunderstood...

I have a vague memory of reading something about someone in america interviewing nelson mandela and referring to him as "african american" which he challenged in a good humoured sort of way.

Life is complicated.

There is discussion elsewhere on urban (on a thread that started about william hague and went downhill rapidly) about whether the "n word" is at all acceptable, and if so whether it's acceptable only when it's used by black people (and i wonder whether spelling it "-az" at the end may make a difference)

Likewise, there's chunks of the LGBTetc community who have 'reclaimed' the word "queer" which I'm old fashioned enough to feel uncomfortable with.

Then there's the question of how TV drama should reflect attitudes that exist out there in the real world without going too far in appearing to champion or condone them, rather than attempting to portray a utopia that doesn't yet exist.  (Although this is open to difficulty - not everyone got Alf Garnett)


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## zoooo (Sep 3, 2013)

I worked with some middle aged/mid 50s women recently who would whisper 'black' like they were saying something wrong.

They did the same on Gavin and Stacey with Gavin's mum. It's a thing some people of a certain age do.


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## Vintage Paw (Sep 4, 2013)

zoooo said:


> I worked with some middle aged/mid 50s women recently who would whisper 'black' like they were saying something wrong.
> 
> They did the same on Gavin and Stacey with Gavin's mum. It's a thing some people of a certain age do.



My nana took in a black cat. She called it Blackie. A few years later a black family moved in next door. My nana changed the cat's name to Suzie because she didn't want to offend them by standing on the back door step shouting 'Blackie' at all hours trying to get the cat in. Bless her. They (her and my aunt, who lived together) used to forget and sometimes call it Blackie anyway. Poor cat didn't know who the fuck it was in the end. 

Incidentally, she used to use the term 'blackies' or 'darkies' and yet I never once heard her express a racist sentiment. She was born in (I think) 1918. When it comes to terminology, when there's no ill-feeling sometimes I question the usefulness of challenging older people's language uses in those circumstances. I'm sure she would have been receptive to hearing that such words weren't said anymore and it was better to say x, y or z, but she would have fallen back into old usage and to make an issue of it would have been pointless.


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## ShiftyBagLady (Sep 4, 2013)

Edit: yeah, never mind, bit of a derail.


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