# Death following arrest: Sean Rigg



## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2008)

There may be trouble ahead  



> *A 40-year-old man has died in police custody after being arrested on suspicion of assault.*
> 
> The unnamed man was reported to police in Atkins Road in Brixton, south London, on Thursday.
> 
> ...


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## rennie (Aug 23, 2008)

That's bad.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2008)

Apparently healthy young man


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/7578868.stm


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## nick h. (Aug 23, 2008)

Atkins Road is in Balham, not Brixton.  OK, he "fell ill" at Brixton nick. But it makes you wonder whether the BBC wants to put in as many mentions of Brixton as possible so they can hint at the dreaded r word.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 23, 2008)

nick h. said:


> Atkins Road is in Balham, not Brixton.  OK, he "fell ill" at Brixton nick. But it makes you wonder whether the BBC wants to put in as many mentions of Brixton as possible so they can hint at the dreaded r word.




He could have had a heart condition.  Lots of young people die each year with a previously undiagnosed heart condition


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## agricola (Aug 23, 2008)

Here is the IPCC link:

http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/pr220808_brixton_death.htm

As for the discussion over Atkins Road, its within the Brixton subdivision (there are three - Kennington, Streatham and Brixton) of Lambeth Borough in police terms, so I wouldnt read too much into it.


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## netbob (Aug 24, 2008)

and more: http://nds.coi.gov.uk/Content/Detail.asp?ReleaseID=377464&NewsAreaID=2


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## ViolentPanda (Aug 24, 2008)

nick h. said:


> Atkins Road is in Balham, not Brixton.  OK, he "fell ill" at Brixton nick. But it makes you wonder whether the BBC wants to put in as many mentions of Brixton as possible so they can hint at the dreaded r word.



Balham *and* Streatham/Brixton borders, if you bear in mind that most people think Streatham Place is Atkins Rd, IYSWIM.


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## brixtongirl78 (Aug 24, 2008)

I don't think this will start a riot. 

If there was ever going to be one then surely it would have been when that Brixton prison van driver murdered that woman.  Scenes on the ground that day were very ugly.


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## London_Calling (Aug 24, 2008)

I'm very sorry for his family, but hugely pleased to know 40 falls within the definition of "a young man".


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 24, 2008)

London_Calling said:


> I'm very sorry for his family, but hugely pleased to know 40 falls within the definition of "a young man".




Well I'm 42 so I'm not going to say old am I


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## Jonti (Aug 25, 2008)

brixtongirl78 said:


> I don't think this will start a riot.
> 
> If there was ever going to be one then surely it would have been when that Brixton prison van driver murdered that woman.  Scenes on the ground that day were very ugly.


I'm not so sure that Naomi Gully's death was a case of murder.  There hasn't been a trial or verdict yet, but (fwiw) I'd expect a manslaughter verdict.

I mean, did the driver really intend to kill her? Or was it (for example) more a case of recklessness on his part, exacerbated by poor training and support from his employer, Serco?


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## hendo (Aug 25, 2008)

Jonti said:


> I'm not so sure that Naomi Gully's death was a case of murder. There hasn't been a trial or verdict yet, but (fwiw) I'd expect a manslaughter verdict.
> 
> I mean, did the driver really intend to kill her? Or was it (for example) more a case of recklessness on his part, exacerbated by poor training and support from his employer, Serco?


 
Why not let the jury decide?


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## cliche guevara (Aug 25, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He could have had a heart condition.  Lots of young people die each year with a previously undiagnosed heart condition



That seems to be the most likely explanation. Guess we'll have to wait and see though...


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## Jonti (Aug 25, 2008)

hendo said:


> Why not let the jury decide?


That's pretty much what I'm saying here.  

I was replying to brixtongirl78's categorical statement here that the death was murder.


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## Agent Sparrow (Aug 25, 2008)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> He could have had a heart condition.  Lots of young people die each year with a previously undiagnosed heart condition



Restraint can cause heart attacks, at least in people with dodgy hearts anyway. I'm not sure of the biology though - something to do with blood pressure? I think that's caused a few deaths in psychiatric institutions. Restraint + certain psychiatric drugs which weaken the heart = death through heart failure. 

And the problem with restraint is that sometimes it's necessary and at other times it's not. Not convinced that there will be a fair analysis of the situation though, given from what I've heard about investigations into deaths in police custody.


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## brixtongirl78 (Aug 26, 2008)

I'm only calling it murder because thats what the police charged him with.  

There was probably a number of things they might have charged him with for example death by dangerous driving, careless driving and so on.  But they charged him with murder probably for a very good reason.  The police don't like to waste their time and persue charges unless the have very good evidence to present to the CPS.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 26, 2008)

He didn't die in Brixton Nick though, did he? It's only a 'death in custody' because he'd been arrested. It might be a situation like the man found in Clapham unconscious on a pavement a few years ago. The ambulance crew said he was drunk and got the police to take him to the station. The custody sergeant thought otherwise and got him straight to hospital where he died of a brain injury. Turned out he'd been attacked on the street in Clapham. That was regarded as a death in custody but the police were completely blameless.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 26, 2008)

brixtongirl78 said:


> I'm only calling it murder because thats what the police charged him with.
> 
> There was probably a number of things they might have charged him with for example death by dangerous driving, careless driving and so on.  But they charged him with murder probably for a very good reason.  The police don't like to waste their time and persue charges unless the have very good evidence to present to the CPS.



Or as DB pointed out, if he went 'no comment' throughout his interviews, they charge him with the Big One and let the court/jury take it from there. 

Probably best not to speculate too much on the interwebs.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 26, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He didn't die in Brixton Nick though, did he? It's only a 'death in custody' because he'd been arrested.


 

You're quite correct.  Feel free to amend title of this post


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## Louloubelle (Oct 6, 2008)

an update
http://www.blackmentalhealth.org.uk/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=443&Itemid=117


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## Louloubelle (Oct 6, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He didn't die in Brixton Nick though, did he? It's only a 'death in custody' because he'd been arrested. It might be a situation like the man found in Clapham unconscious on a pavement a few years ago. The ambulance crew said he was drunk and got the police to take him to the station. The custody sergeant thought otherwise and got him straight to hospital where he died of a brain injury. Turned out he'd been attacked on the street in Clapham. That was regarded as a death in custody but the police were completely blameless.



Only it's not anything like the above case as Mr Rigg was not unconscious when he was arrested.  He was physically very well when he was arrested, or at least appeared to be, and was certainly not unconscious.  He became unwell at Brixton police station, was rushed to hospital and died 2 hours and 9 minutes after his arrest.

He was arrested on a charge of assaulting a police officer, so one can safely assume that, at the time of his arrest, Mr Rigg was  in sufficiently good physical health to have allegedly assaulted a police officer, a hard thing to do if you are unconscious.


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## Louloubelle (Jan 10, 2009)

some interesting and important updates re this 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ut-at-ipcc-over-death-in-custody-1224480.html

http://www.yourlocalguardian.co.uk/...police_tried_to_cover_up_my_brother_s_death_/


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## Louloubelle (Jan 10, 2009)

Maybe the thread title could be changed to something like "death in police custody after man is restrained in the only area of the police station not covered by CCTV.  Actually it was covered by CCTV but the police initially said it wasn't and then subsequently claimed that it was but it was covered by the only camera in the police station to be not working" 

or something


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## XR75 (Jan 10, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Restraint can cause heart attacks, at least in people with dodgy hearts anyway. I'm not sure of the biology though - something to do with blood pressure? I think that's caused a few deaths in psychiatric institutions. Restraint + certain psychiatric drugs which weaken the heart = death through heart failure.



You could add a combination of pepper spray,tasers,being squashed or choked to that list.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jan 10, 2009)

Louloubelle said:


> Maybe the thread title could be changed to something like "death in police custody after man is restrained in the only area of the police station not covered by CCTV.  Actually it was covered by CCTV but the police initially said it wasn't and then subsequently claimed that it was but it was covered by the only camera in the police station to be not working"
> 
> or something





That will really stretch the page


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## Louloubelle (Jan 10, 2009)

Agent Sparrow said:


> Restraint can cause heart attacks, at least in people with dodgy hearts anyway. I'm not sure of the biology though - something to do with blood pressure? I think that's caused a few deaths in psychiatric institutions. Restraint + certain psychiatric drugs which weaken the heart = death through heart failure.
> 
> And the problem with restraint is that sometimes it's necessary and at other times it's not. Not convinced that there will be a fair analysis of the situation though, given from what I've heard about investigations into deaths in police custody.



Mr Rigg had not been taking his medication for some weeks prior to his arrest.  He did not have a heart condition

Just for the sake of clarification


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## agricola (Jan 10, 2009)

This is certainly a tragic case, but from the reporting some clarification does need to be made (I should also point out that these are personal views only, I have nothing to do with this case, and am not familiar with it):



> On 21 August last year Mr Rigg became disturbed after suffering a breakdown. Staff at his hostel made six 999 calls from around 5pm, asking for help in taking Mr Rigg to a place of safety. The police refused to attend.



The Police have no power to deal with mentally ill people on private premises, especially when those premises are the home address (as it is in this case) - the only Police power relevant is s136, which only applies in public.  When Police do section people in private premises it is always with social workers / mental health staff who have obtained a warrant.  The only thing the officers could do is attend and try to persuade the person to attend voluntarily, something which the staff should really already be doing.

Nor, could it be argued, is it really appropriate for Police to attend and "deal with" problems related to mental health at a mental health hostel, at which there are mental health trained staff who (one imagines) would have had far more training than the average relief Pc at Brixton will have.  From the reports it does not appear that any of the calls mentioned that Rigg was committing criminal acts at the hostel, so one wonders what Police could have done - this is possibly why Police refused to attend.   

That does of course lead on to something that has been oft mentioned on the forum - the woeful and entirely fatal lack of capacity in the mental health system for instances like this, both in terms of space for emergency/136 patients, and transportation for emergency patients that does not involve the police.


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## Louloubelle (Jul 24, 2009)

Mrs Magpie said:


> He didn't die in Brixton Nick though, did he? It's only a 'death in custody' because he'd been arrested. It might be a situation like the man found in Clapham unconscious on a pavement a few years ago. The ambulance crew said he was drunk and got the police to take him to the station. The custody sergeant thought otherwise and got him straight to hospital where he died of a brain injury. Turned out he'd been attacked on the street in Clapham. That was regarded as a death in custody but the police were completely blameless.



It looks like he did die in Brixton nick, or at least was given CPR at Brixton nick.. As CPR is an emergency procedure to save someone's life when either their heart or lungs stop working you can draw your own conclusions. 





> The IPCC has removed two press releases about the case of Sean Rigg from its website. This has been done at the request of Sean Rigg's family who have raised concerns about the misleading wording of the releases. The releases stated that Sean was "taken to Brixton police station but became unwell and was taken to hospital where he subsequently died at 9.24pm."
> 
> This should have read that Sean was "taken to Brixton police station where he was given CPR. He was then taken to hospital where he was formally pronounced dead at 9.24pm." The original releases also referred to Sean having been arrested for assault. This should have read "alleged assault".
> 
> The IPCC apologises for the distress this has caused to Sean Rigg's family.



source:
http://www.ipcc.gov.uk/news/pr260109_riggapology-2.htm


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## Louloubelle (Jul 24, 2009)

I didn't say anything before, but I know Sean's brother very well and have met his family (lovely people) and am friends with one of Sean's closest friends.

This whole thing has been devastating for me as Sean is the 2nd person who has died in police custody that I know of in a situation where I have been friends of their family and friends.  Both young men had African ancestry. 

I had been told a lot of information in confidence so didn't post here as I didn't really want to get involved in debates here where I might get really angry and post stuff I shouldn't. 

Some of this information is now on the public domain so I'm going to post some of it here. 

Please excuse the C&P

This is important and I wanted to highlight some aspects 

_http://www.seanriggjusticeandchange.com/News.html

Family hit out at IPCC over death in custody.
The police complaints commission is accused of failing to conduct an open investigation. Nina Lakhani reports
Sunday, 4 January 2009


What Sean Rigg needed, desperately, was help: urgent medical attention for his serious mental illness. What he got, instead, was restraint. He was taken into custody by police officers who failed to notice his illness. And within hours of being arrested, he was dead.

His grieving family pleaded with the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) to discover how he died. Four months later, their questions still unanswered, they have accused the IPCC of failing to conduct a fair and independent investigation. The investigators have refused to take even the basic step of interviewing the officers involved.

The family say they have been denied access to information they believe would explain why Mr Rigg, a physically fit 40-year-old man, died so suddenly, despite investigators' pledges to be open. The family's MP, Sadiq Khan, a human rights lawyer, is to meet investigators on Tuesday to discuss his concerns about the case.

Samantha Rigg-David, 38, sister of the dead man, said: "Our family had never come into contact with the police before this happened; our eyes have been opened to the injustice and discrimination suffered by many families at the hands of the police. But even worse is that we no longer believe the IPCC is independent and have lost faith in their investigation."

While Mr Rigg was physically well, he had a long-history of mental illness, and Brixton police had been involved in taking him to hospital on several occasions over the years. He lived in a supported hostel and was well known locally as a musician.

On 21 August last year Mr Rigg became disturbed after suffering a breakdown. Staff at his hostel made six 999 calls from around 5pm, asking for help in taking Mr Rigg to a place of safety. The police refused to attend.

Mr Rigg left the hostel in a disturbed state at 7pm and police approached him after a member of the public raised the alarm. Mr Rigg was restrained, handcuffed and arrested for a public order offence and alleged assault on a police officer. He was carrying his passport in his pocket at the time.

Mr Rigg arrived at Brixton police station in a van at 7.30pm but collapsed before he was transferred to the station. No one spotted that he was suffering from a mental illness or identified him as someone who had previously been detained under the Mental Health Act. A police surgeon and an ambulance attended, but he was pronounced dead at King's College Hospital at 9.24pm.

His family believe he was dead before he left Brixton police station. What exactly happened has proved impossible to establish independently. *The family was told there was no CCTV inside the van, and crucial footage from the police station yard is missing. The existence of a camera which overlooked where he collapsed was acknowledged by police only after Mr Rigg's siblings insisted on looking around the station. Police now claim the camera had not worked since May 2008.*

*Anna Mazzola, of solicitor Hickman and Rose, acting for the Rigg family, said: "The IPCC only agreed to make the disappearance of the CCTV part of the terms of reference following repeated representations on behalf of the family. Despite the manner of Sean's death, the IPCC are refusing to treat the matter as a criminal investigation. Nearly four months after Sean's death, no statements have been taken from the officers involved and no explanation put forward as to what happened on the way to the station."*

One of the family's complaints is that they were not informed of his death until almost six hours afterwards. They were not allowed to see his body for a further 36 hours.

*Mr Rigg's elder sister, Marcia Rigg-Samuel, 43, said: "We were told there was one visible injury to his face which was described as a scratch. We were then actively discouraged from seeing his body – by the police and the IPCC – but by this point the alarm bells were ringing, so we insisted.

"We were shocked when we saw a clear wound on his forehead and another on the side of his face – these had never been mentioned, and we believe the police did not want us to see them. I think we have been told lies and I think there is CCTV footage that would prove this. There have been attempts to obstruct our search and to cover up what happened to Sean."*

An independent pathology report points to a restraint-related death, but the family still awaits the official coroner's report. The IPCC denied them access to the police surgeon's medical notes.

Mr Rigg's death is one of 24 deaths in police custody last year. No fewer than 102 black and ethnic minority people have died in police custody in the past 16 years.

Deborah Cole from the campaign group Inquest said: "We are deeply, deeply concerned about the controversial circumstances in which another mentally ill black man has died and about the subsequent conduct of the IPCC. The family are right to express grave misgivings about this investigation, which so far seems to mirror mistakes of the past."

Ms Mazzola said: "There has been a clear unwillingness to reveal information. This is contrary to the overriding principle set out in the IPCC guidance on disclosure."

Deborah Glass, the IPCC deputy chair, insisted the watchdog has shared information with the family: "We understand and sympathise with their frustration but are sure that they, like us, want a thorough and impartial investigation to establish the truth about what happened to Sean."_

I still feel uncertain about posting too much here.  My distress at my friend's brother's death is insignificant compared to the immense distress of my friend and his family.  I worry about saying the wrong thing. 

I did attend a vigil outside Brixton police station where I met other members of Sean's family.  A woman stopped to speak to them.  She was the mother of Ricky Bishop, who also died in highly suspicious circumstances at Brixton nick.  Then I met lots of other people too and for a while it seemed like this kind of thing happens all the time.  Maybe it does?

The world seems to be separated into those people who have been affected by deaths in custody and those who have not. 

Anyway, enough about me.  This is not to do with me.  I would just like it if people could check out the details of this case and be supportive to Sean's family.

The family's campaign website for Sean is here 

http://www.seanriggjusticeandchange.com/index.html

please read this
http://www.seanriggjusticeandchange.com/Campaign.html
thanks


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## AnnO'Neemus (Jul 24, 2009)

Really sorry to hear about this.  And particularly sorry that the loss affects people here, and people known to urbanites.

I think this tragedy reflects is a general problem relating to failures in police training and awareness regarding people with mental health problems.  The majority of them are woefully ignorant.  As are the general public, for that matter, because of taboo and prejudice.


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## durruti02 (Aug 19, 2009)

UNITED CAMPAIGN AGAINST POLICE VIOLENCE

office@againstpoliceviolence.org.uk - www.againstpoliceviolence.org.uk
    Press: Patrick Ward 07894 49 7705

    PRESS RELEASE - For immediate release

    Friday 21 August
    ONE YEAR ON: REMEMBER SEAN RIGG – NO MORE DEATHS IN POLICE CUSTODY

    Friday 21 August - assemble 5.30pm Junction of Fairmount Road and Brixton Hill, Brixton, London
    Rally at Brixton Police Station, SW9 7DD – Candlelight vigil

    On 21 August 2008, at approximately 7.30pm, Sean Rigg was arrested and restrained by four Brixton police officers, placed in a van and driven to Brixton police station. Within approximately one hour of being arrested, Sean, a physically fit and healthy man, was dead.

    Since Sean’s death, his family have campaigned tirelessly for justice. But their commitment to seeing justice done has met with opposition from the supposedly Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC), whose weak, flawed investigation seems immensely biased towards the police.

    The United Campaign Against Police Violence fully supports this evening of remembrance, starting at the hostel at which Sean was staying to Brixton police station. We must ensure that justice is done, and that there are no more deaths in police custody.

    No justice – no peace!

    Samantha Rigg-David, Sean Rigg Justice and Change Campaign and sister of Sean Rigg, said:

    "Friday 21st August 2009 will be a year to the day since Sean died and we are still fighting for answers, answers that make sense. We have called for a robust and fair investigation, but still the IPCC continue to take the word, side and perspective of the police.

    “As a family it has been hard to grieve. Instead, we have had to campaign tirelessly and ask some very hard questions and almost conduct our own investigation into what happened to Sean on the night he died in Brixton police station. Our questions only raise yet more questions and lead us into further suspicion.

    “We can only continue in our quest for justice and hope that all those responsible for Sean's death, all those that failed him on that fateful day, will be called to account. These needless deaths need to stop, the police need to indeed work with us, the community, learn to treat us with the respect and care that we deserve in truly working together for 'a safer London' , not one where innocent people turn up 'dead' in the hands of the police."

    UNITED CAMPAIGN AGAINST POLICE VIOLENCE
office@againstpoliceviolence.org.uk - www.againstpoliceviolence.org.uk
    Press: Patrick Ward 07894 49 7705


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## detective-boy (Aug 19, 2009)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> I think this tragedy reflects is a general problem relating to failures in police training and awareness regarding people with mental health problems.


It is a much wider problem than that - how the police deal with the mentally ill is a symptom, not the cause - they shouldn't be fucking dealing with them in the first place.  They are not trained, equipped or organised to deal with them and never will be.  There is simply no way that a police officer can be trained to anything like a high enough level of skill and experience to deal properly with the mentally ill - it is a specialist medical role.  The fucking helath service should get off it's arse and provide the services, including mental health paramedics, reducing the police role to "first aid" in exactly the same way that the ambulance service does with physical health issues.

_Every_ time some tragedy like this happens (and it is only a matter of time before there will be another one), everyone starts slagging off the police and alleging that they have "killed" the victim ... and _every_ time all they succeed in doing is diverting attention from the _actual_ problem.


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> It is a much wider problem than that - how the police deal with the mentally ill is a symptom, not the cause - they shouldn't be fucking dealing with them in the first place.



An important fact a lot of armchair know-it-alls would do well to remember.

I'm not saying the police are perfect - but all too often it is convenient to blame them for things that were really out of their hands, and very easy to pass judgement on from the safety of behind the computer screen with the benefit of hindsight.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 19, 2009)

ah, is that what it is.

I got home to a message from b/f saying to be careful in Brixton tomorrow as there might be riots because someone's just been killed.

He gets things a bit muddled


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

Sounds like traffic disruption if they're going down the hill during the busy part of the day.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 19, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Sounds like traffic disruption if they're going down the hill during the busy part of the day.




yeah, I'm hoping I'll get back before they start


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

Looking at the site listed above, theres lots of leftie links, so expect the swappies and all the other hangers-on and professional protesters to hijack the protest.


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## nick h. (Aug 19, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> It is a much wider problem than that - how the police deal with the mentally ill is a symptom, not the cause - they shouldn't be fucking dealing with them in the first place.  They are not trained, equipped or organised to deal with them and never will be.  There is simply no way that a police officer can be trained to anything like a high enough level of skill and experience to deal properly with the mentally ill - it is a specialist medical role.  The fucking helath service should get off it's arse and provide the services, including mental health paramedics, reducing the police role to "first aid" in exactly the same way that the ambulance service does with physical health issues.
> 
> _Every_ time some tragedy like this happens (and it is only a matter of time before there will be another one), everyone starts slagging off the police and alleging that they have "killed" the victim ... and _every_ time all they succeed in doing is diverting attention from the _actual_ problem.



These are all good points but they seem to me to be of little relevance to this case. A physically fit man died because he had been restrained.  What are we to make of this 'restraint-related' death? One newspaper suggests this probably means he was deprived of oxygen. How on earth do four officers trained in restraint techniques fail to restrain one man without him dying as a direct result? His schizophrenia is irrelevant - even if he was going berserk it should be possible for four officers to restrain him safely. People go berserk when being arrested whether they're sane or not. The alleged failure of the CCTV camera, the apparent attempt to conceal the facial injuries from the family, the absence of a coroner's verdict after a year's wait, the Police refusal to release their surgeon's report to the IPCC, the misleading IPCC press releases which were withdrawn....it reeks of a cover-up of the classic 'he fell downstairs in the back of the van' variety.  I'm very disturbed by the whole thing and cannot conjure up any scenario in which innocent put-upon officers are doing their best.


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## nick h. (Aug 19, 2009)

ajdown said:


> Sounds like traffic disruption if they're going down the hill during the busy part of the day.





ajdown said:


> Looking at the site listed above, theres lots of leftie links, so expect the swappies and all the other hangers-on and professional protesters to hijack the protest.



You disgust me. Don't you feel any shame when you try to reduce this man's death to a poor excuse for a traffic jam? You should be banned. I'm flagging your post - I hope I'm one of many.


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

I don't know the guy, I have never had any trouble with the actions of the police, so wouldn't it be a little hypocritical to jump on the bandwagon as an excuse to protest?

Did you know him?  I doubt it.  So what's your reason to support this march?

Any untimely death is tragic, yes, regardless of the circumstances.  I fully support the right of people to voice their opinions on this issue, and if they wish to do a protest march down Brixton Hill and shout outside the police station about it then that's fine by me.  But what about the rights of people who just want to get home tomorrow evening?



> One newspaper *suggests *this *probably *means



Hype, rather than fact?


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## bluestreak (Aug 19, 2009)

cock off.


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## bluestreak (Aug 19, 2009)

no really, cock off.  you really are an arrogant pathetic selfish cunt of the highest order.


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## nick h. (Aug 19, 2009)

If you want to discuss your right to drive home nice and fast please start a separate thread about it. Please stop hijacking this thread with your banalities. It's disrespectful to the dead man, his family and friends. Leave this thread to people who value justice and human life more highly than the waste of three minutes of your precious time sitting in a traffic jam.


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

I notice nobody attacked 'minnie the minx' for posting a similar concern about traffic disruption *shrug*

Happy protesting tomorrow I guess.  I'm surprised the police allowed it during rush hour though.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 19, 2009)

ajdown said:


> I notice nobody attacked 'minnie the minx' for posting a similar concern about traffic disruption *shrug*
> 
> Happy protesting tomorrow I guess.  I'm surprised the police allowed it during rush hour though.




Yeah, well I was posting more about the fact that b/f had written me a rather confused note about avoiding Brixton Hill tomorrow and he wanted to warn me that something was going on and he's very worried.

He's not really aware what it's about though.  I was more speaking out loud reassuring him I'd be alright than stating that a protest would fuck up my journey, although to be fair, I didn't explain that.


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## ajdown (Aug 19, 2009)

You don't need to justify yourself.  Neither do I, or anyone else really.


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## detective-boy (Aug 20, 2009)

nick h. said:


> I'm very disturbed by the whole thing and cannot conjure up any scenario in which innocent put-upon officers are doing their best.


You have clearly never had to deal with someone kicking off big time in a situation where they need to be restrained, mentally ill or not.  It is NOT something you can do without using very significant amounts of force.  

As for _how_ the restraint was done, police officers are very well aware of the dangers of positional asphyxia and excited delirium - they have been taught as part of officer safety training for at least 10 years.  Whether or not they used appropriate restraint methods will be the focus of the investigation.

But you seem to be making the assumption that just because someone was fit and healthy before they kicked off and a couple of hours later they were dead then they _must_ have been killed by something done to them.  That is absolutely NOT the case - go and Google excited delirium and you will find that it is a recognised, but very poorly understood, condition.

But my original point stands: there is no way the police should have been left to transport someone suffering from mental illness in a police van and there is no way they should have been left to take him to a police station.  Sort out the causes (absolute lack of acute mental health provision), not the symptom (ill-trained, ill-equipped police officers being left to pick up the pieces because the fucking health service and every cunt else can't be fucking arsed ...)


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## nick h. (Aug 20, 2009)

OK, I've just read the wiki entry on excited delirium. And I can imagine that now and again people will die of positional asphyxia when police are sitting on them, which seems to be the standard way of restraining someone who has completely lost it.  I saw this up close in the US once - massive amounts of force were used - the guy was built like a brick shithouse and was completely irrational well before the police arrived. It looked like one guy versus a whole rugby scrum. But it was difficult to see what else the police could have done short of a taser or a dart gun with a tranquilliser. In Sean Rigg's case perhaps the police refused to attend because they looked up his file and didn't want to risk such a scenario?  I suppose we'll just have to wait for the inquest. 

If we had mental health paramedics what method would they use in these situations?


----------



## hotchiwitchi (Aug 20, 2009)

Probably call the Police if they felt that their own or the publics safety was in danger.Which illustrates that the police will be left to deal with and often blamed for other organisations failings.at present only the police have the capacity or capability to forcefully restrain perceived violent people in a public space.

  Mental health and social service support is predominately mon-fri  9 to 5.Look in any inner london emergency department on an evening and witness the large proportion of people there with Social problems as opposed to strictly medical.


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## detective-boy (Aug 20, 2009)

nick h. said:


> And I can imagine that now and again people will die of positional asphyxia when police are sitting on them, which seems to be the standard way of restraining someone who has completely lost it.


It's most definitely NOT the "standard" way at all.  In the initial stages of restraining someone it's probably inevitable to some extent (as the incident you witnessed in the US no doubt illustrated).  Once some degree of control is established, however, pressure should be removed from neck / chest / abdomen as soon as practicable (being transferred to spread arms and legs and possibly head (to prevent thrashing around)).  Monitoring of breathing should also be proactively done as soon as practicable and any difficulty in breathing addressed immediately.  Handcuffing is an issue too - it is the only means we have in the UK of restraining someone for transporting them and in itself, if done behind the back (which is the only effective method of taking arms out of commission, violence-wise)) it can itself restrict breathing ... which gives the police a Catch-22 situation ...



> If we had mental health paramedics what method would they use in these situations?


I don't think there is any real alternative to the initial restraint.  I think there is scope to make use of Taser and possibly some other less-lethal technology but, one way or another, you end up having to stop someone fighting.  Paramedics could make use of sedatives and drugs, where police cannot, so that would add another alternative and it would remove the need for significant physical force to be maintained for long periods of time (street, van, custody suite, cell ...).

The advantage would be that (a) they would have all the other monitoring and emergency resuscitation equipment in case the subject deteriorated; (b) paramedic vehicles would be designed to be as user-friendly as possible for a mentally ill patient (with different restraint equipment as used in mental hospitals), thus minimising risk to subject and (c) they would be taking them direct to a mental health facility, again designed specifically for mental health patients, not to a police station and a general cell.

I really, really think it would be far more useful if families and interest groups involved in cases like this could take a step back from their immediate, knee-jerk, "The police killed him, everything else is lies and cover-up" reaction and actually work _with_ the police to try and identify what can be done to stop it happening again.  Whilst there _may_ have been inappropriate or excessive force used, in the majority of cases all that has happened is that ill-trained and ill-equipped police officers have done their best with their limited resources to deal with something that is really beyond them.  _If_ that is the case, or largely the case, families and interest groups would get far, far further working _with_ the police rather than against them.


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## shakespearegirl (Aug 21, 2009)

Article in today's Guardian

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/aug/21/sean-riggs-police-death-cctv


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 21, 2009)

Did they actually have a march? 

I got off the bus at Blenheim Gardens at 5.15 and didn't see anyone on Fairmount Road


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## Jonti (Aug 21, 2009)

> Suzanne Wallace, a chief inspector who was in charge of the station, was caught on tape saying CCTV was working and recordings had been seized.
> 
> "I know that's been seized because on the night the officers from the DPS [Department of Professional Standards] were asking about the CCTV," she said. "And that was one of my questions: is the CCTV working, is it running, is there a tape in there? You know – very basic, but it's really, really important. And that was all to the affirmative.
> 
> ...


Suzanne Wallace is right: the fact the tape has "gone missing" does make people suspect a cover up.

Seems difficult to believe the theft and destruction of evidence concerning the death of Sean Rigg  could have been done by one "bad apple" cop acting alone


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## nick h. (Aug 21, 2009)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> Did they actually have a march?
> 
> I got off the bus at Blenheim Gardens at 5.15 and didn't see anyone on Fairmount Road



It's today. Starts at 5.30. http://www.seanriggjusticeandchange.com/


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## detective-boy (Aug 21, 2009)

Jonti said:


> Seems difficult to believe the theft and destruction of evidence concerning the death of Sean Rigg  could have been done by one "bad apple" cop acting alone


It's a big (and unjustifiable) leap from what is in the articles in the links to an allegation that the footage has been stolen and destroyed.  There is no specific statement to show that there was ever any footage from the particular camera(s) that covered the cage.  The Chief Inspector's statement _may_ be read in that way or it may be read as she had been assured the system was working and the recordings had been seized ... but she had not specifically seen the footage from a particular camera.

The system used to record on a single tape through a multiplex system when I worked at Brixton twelve years ago.  I cannot believe that it has been downgraded since then so that individual cameras record on individual tapes.  There will therefore be a single tape containing recordings from all cameras.  I would hope that the Chief Inspector actually checked the _specific_ camera tracks before making her statement ... but there is nothing in it which confirms that she did for sure so it may be that the camera(s) covering the external cage area were defective even though others were working and recording OK.  This was not an unusual situation when I was there (regarding different cameras at different times, not specifically the cage ones) and is not an unusual situation with any multi-camera system.  Better maintenance, checking and handover regimes for police station custody suite camera systems could definitely be introduced - they tend to be fairly low down the list of things checked and their importance in situations like this is not recognised until after the event by most officers.

If it is a multiplex system, it also makes your (entirely unjustified by any actual evidence) allegation that the tapes have been stolen and destroyed pretty impossible, unless all footage from all cameras has disappeared (and there is no indication of that at all).

And even if it has been lost somehow, it seems clear from the Chief Inspector's statement that Professional Standards seized the tapes at on just after the incident ... and so there is no way the officers involved in the incident could have interfered with them and you are expecting us to believe that officers from Professional Standards, absolutely uninvolved with the incident and employed to investigate incidents involving police officers have conspired with the officers involved to destroy evidence of some criminal wrongdoing (which there is no actual evidence of either, not least because it appears the cameras which do show some of the cage show Mr Rigg collapsing a couple of times, and even sufficient detail that an officer sort of nudged him with his foot, do not show any actual use of force whilst in the case area).  

There do appear to be some issues here in terms of how he was treated (in terms of first aid and general care) whilst at the station and if there was such a delay in calling for medical assistance as appears from the facts reported then there are certainly hard questions to be asked of the officers concerned ... but that is going to get lost in the noise if the allegation becomes that he was somehow beaten to death as seems to be the case at the moment.

As for the period held in the cage: whether or not that was right or wrong will depend on what else was happening in the custody office.  It is not the largest room in the world and it is absolutely standard practice for custody officers to "queue" incoming prisoners if they are already busy with previous ones (otherwise the custody office becomes too crowded and unmanageable).  If Mr Rigg was clearly ill (as would appear to be the case) the officers dealing with him could and should have brought that to the attention of the custody officer ... but the reported comments suggest that they, for whatever reason, decided he was faking his collapse (something which is not an unusual situation ...).  I certainly don't think the period held in the cage will turn out to be anything suspicious or malicious.


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## detective-boy (Aug 21, 2009)

shakespearegirl said:


> Article in today's Guardian


Interesting article.

The details of the IPCC investigation, particularly it's speed, suggest (as is often the case) that it has not been done as well as it could / should have been.  As I have commented many times before, the IPCC sacrificed competence and experience in appointing it's investigators for the symbolism of independence (i.e. they could not have any prior involvement with the police).  That may have played some part ... but the major issue will undoubtedly be their dire understaffing - from the day they were introduced they have had nowhere near enough staff to independently investigate even the relatively few top level cases referred to them.  

As well as the stuff I have mentioned earlier in terms of providing emergency paramedic support for dealing with people with acute mental health issues instead of abandoning them to the ill-trained and ill-equipped police, we need to review how we resource the IPCC if we are to expect them to deliver anywhere near the service we clearly (and rightly) expect of them.


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## nick h. (Aug 21, 2009)

If you are sitting alone in the cage why might you stop breathing? Can it happen as a result of excited delirium even when nobody is manhandling you?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 21, 2009)

I know that area of Brixton Police Station from when I was a lay visitor/appropriate adult. The word 'cage' is a bit misleading. It's a sort of large meshed area leading into the Custody Suite from a large yard. 

I often used to go in there with detainees for a ciggie (dunno if that's allowed now) but also I was there as an appropriate adult with someone who was really claustrophobic and we just hung out in there while I calmed them down because even sitting in the cell with the door open was not great because the corridor wasn't that big. 

Also if CS spray had been used detainees would get 'aired' there because it was acrid stuff. I have very sensitive eyes and I could tell straight away if CS spray had been used in an arrest because my eyes would hurt almost immediately I went through the door even if no one else was affected.


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## agricola (Aug 21, 2009)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I know that area of Brixton Police Station from when I was a lay visitor/appropriate adult. The word 'cage' is a bit misleading. It's a sort of large meshed area leading into the Custody Suite from a large yard.
> 
> I often used to go in there with detainees for a ciggie (dunno if that's allowed now) but also I was there as an appropriate adult with someone who was really claustrophobic and we just hung out in there while I calmed them down because even sitting in the cell with the door open was not great because the corridor wasn't that big.
> 
> Also if CS spray had been used detainees would get 'aired' there because it was acrid stuff. I have very sensitive eyes and I could tell straight away if CS spray had been used in an arrest because my eyes would hurt almost immediately I went through the door even if no one else was affected.



This is correct.  Most Met stations have a "cage", its usually used as either a waiting area for people who are waiting to be booked in to custody (where there are other detainees ahead of them in the queue), or as an area where detainees can go for a cig in the open air.

As for the CCTV, it is a bit odd - on the one hand people here appear to be suggesting its missing, on the other the Grauniad are saying that there is footage (albeit obscured) of Rigg in the cage:



> The van entered the police yard at 7.53pm and Rigg was left inside for about 10 minutes before officers escorted him to the cage. CCTV inside the station's custody area recorded obscured footage of Rigg in the cage. His family, who have watched the images, say they show him collapse repeatedly and lose consciousness.


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

nick h. said:


> If you are sitting alone in the cage why might you stop breathing? Can it happen as a result of excited delirium even when nobody is manhandling you?


You can certainly stop breathing without anyone manhandling you - people collapse and stop breathing with no-one near them at the point of collapse in all sorts of situations (perhaps sports collapses would be the best equivalent - lots of exertion and then collapse and breathing stops a little while later).  

The whole excited delirium thing is not at all well understood.  There used to also be something called SADS (Sudden Adult Death syndrome - an equivalent of Sudden Infant Death syndrome where there is collapse / death for no apparent reason) but I don't know whether that is still seen as a specific syndrome in it's own right or whether things have moved on.

There ARE some statistical things becoming apparent about excited delirium - it appears to affect black males disproportionately, there seems to be some correlation with drug and / or alcohol use and there seems to be some correlation with mental illness ... but I have not seen specific, peer-reviewed research establishing any of these things for sure and there are, of course, lots of other reasons why some or all of these features may co-occur without there being any actual link.  

As I have said before, whilst we go into all these types of cases with a "the police have beaten him to death" conclusion in our minds from the outset we will _never_ actually get to the bottom of what the causes _actually_are so that we can help make sure they don't happen again.  In any particular case the police _may_ have actually killed a prisoner by excessive use of force ... but that is only one of a number of explanations and, on the basis of the outcome of the enquiries which take place, a very unlikely one.  More likely is that a careless or slightly excessive use of force in restraint has caused / contributed to death, or that lack of care and attention has controbuted to it, even though all use of force has been lawful and justifiable.  Campaigners who immediately encourage families to go down the "beaten to death" route are not helpful.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> You can certainly stop breathing without anyone manhandling you - people collapse and stop breathing with no-one near them at the point of collapse in all sorts of situations (perhaps sports collapses would be the best equivalent - lots of exertion and then collapse and breathing stops a little while later).


it just seems to happen far more often to people in the good hands of the police than it does to, for example, the police themselves.


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

agricola said:


> As for the CCTV, it is a bit odd - on the one hand people here appear to be suggesting its missing, on the other the Grauniad are saying that there is footage (albeit obscured) of Rigg in the cage:


I think there is no footage from the camera(s) which have clear sight of the cage (if I remember rightly there was one on an external wall of the station pointed at the cage).  The footage referred to would seem to refer to cameras inside the custody suite and around it's door, which wouldn't have full, clear views of the cage (but, judging by the description of what was seen, sufficient to see that he was definitely not have seven bells of shit kicked out of him as seems to be being alleged ...).  If this is the case, and there is _some_ footage but not _all_ the footage because a camera was defective, would also explain why the Chief Inspector confirmed there was footage from the outset - her comments are not precise enough to know whether or not she meant all cameras were working 100% or just that there was some footage which had been viewed / secured.


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## agricola (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> I think there is no footage from the camera(s) which have clear sight of the cage (if I remember rightly there was one on an external wall of the station pointed at the cage).  The footage referred to would seem to refer to cameras inside the custody suite and around it's door, which wouldn't have full, clear views of the cage (but, judging by the description of what was seen, sufficient to see that he was definitely not have seven bells of shit kicked out of him as seems to be being alleged ...).  If this is the case, and there is _some_ footage but not _all_ the footage because a camera was defective, would also explain why the Chief Inspector confirmed there was footage from the outset - her comments are not precise enough to know whether or not she meant all cameras were working 100% or just that there was some footage which had been viewed / secured.



Thats probably more likely, its just a shame that the Guardian have put the story in such a way that one could easily take the view that there is no CCTV because it is "lost".


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

agricola said:


> Thats probably more likely, its just a shame that the Guardian have put the story in such a way that one could easily take the view that there is no CCTV because it is "lost".


I'm surprised that you're surprised at that ... like all the media they don't miss an opportunity to spin the story to suit their audience and prejudices and they know damn well that by careful phraseology they can influence what people actually read into what they print.


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## tarannau (Aug 22, 2009)

Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.

Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> I'm surprised that you're surprised at that ... like all the media they don't miss an opportunity to spin the story to suit their audience and prejudices and they know damn well that by careful phraseology they can influence what people actually read into what they print.


so it's all a media conspiracy then


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 22, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.
> 
> Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.


To be fair, the IPCC are *massively* overstretched and underfunded. I know someone who left them because they felt they were overwhelmed by the sheer volume of cases that deserved better scrutiny than they got.


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

tarannau said:


> Isn't this story a little too familiar, even to you DB? CCTV goes missing again, the family feel as though the IPCC are being obstructive and favour the police, they're misled about the extent of his injuries and misleading stories have reached the press.


It would be if those things were proven in lots of cases ... but they're not.

There is no evidence that CCTV has "gone missing" in this case.  From what is known, it would appear most likely that a camera was not being recorded at the time.  That is not the same as CCTV "going missing" and anyone who has had anything to do with a CCTV system will tell you, especially one which is old enough to still be recording on VHS tapes as this appears to be, that is not an unusual occurence.

The family's perception of the IPCC and the information they are provided is pretty commonplace ... but also pretty much inevitable because they have little if any understanding of the complexities of investigation and they tend to have massively too high expectations (not helped by the media, who also have ridiculous expectations) of what is and is not possible and of the timescaes.  I have actually been employed to act as an independent advisor to a family and their solicitors in a re-investigation case and the number of times they would have entirely misinterpreted what they were told had I not been their to add context and explanation even amazed me (their solicitors were certainly nobody's fool but even they read far more into what had been said than was actually there).  

Personally I think that whilst giving the family little updates all the time, whilst for admirable motives, may actually do more harm than good because it keeps raising hopes and expectations that maybe are not there and then, when something which was anticipated doesn't happen they start to believe that there is some sort of cover-up or fuck-up ... when that is just the nature of investigation - things appear and then disappear again.  I think there definitely needs to be more use of written briefings for families, stressing caveats and "what if's" so that there is no argument about what they are told.

The being "misled" about the extent of injuries is perhaps an example of this - in any PM there are pages and pages of details of the pathologists examination.  These include all sorts of notes of injuries, general health, signs of disease, etc.  The focus (understandably) is on anything which is connected to the cause of death and when details are summarised to be passed on, stuff that is considered non-relevant stuff tends to be missed out.  I doubt very much that the information provided was ever intended to be an absolute list of all injuries, etc.  It may have been mistakenly perceived as that, or when a question like "Were there any more injuries?" was answered "No, that was it" by an officer who has probably got a briefing about a briefing about a briefing about the actual PM report there may have been a misperception of how that answer would be interpreted.

As for "misleading stories reaching the press" we've been here a million times: there is absolutely no way you can use what the media publish as being absolute evidence of what they have been told.  They pick and choose what they wish to publish and they spin it their way to their hearts content.  (Classis example: JCdM and the persistent story that the police said he had been seen jumping the barriers wearing bulky coat, etc.  They didn't.  Some random "witness" put live to air by the media said that.  The police mistake was not to correct it later.  But they most definitely did not start the story.)



> Whatever happened in this affair, it's clear that the IPCC are about as independent as Matsui from Dixons.


Which is rather sad as they traded competence for independence and, through their mismanagement of cases, they haven't even established that ...  

Perhaps it is proof that symbolism is no substitute for competence and effectiveness.

Overall the damage caused by misinterpretation of partial information provided as soon as possible but treated as absolute gospel when it cannot possibly be is so bad that maybe we should go back to the old system of not releasing anything until it is absolutely known for sure, checked, double-checked, cross-checked, corroborated and confirmed ... but that would mean families knowing nothing for ages.


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## gabi (Aug 22, 2009)

*yawn* I'm assuming you're here defending the indefensible again db?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> (Classis example: JCdM and the persistent story that the police said he had been seen jumping the barriers wearing bulky coat, etc.  They didn't.  Some random "witness" put live to air by the media said that.  The police mistake was not to correct it later.  But they most definitely did not start the story.)


this is the first appearance of that story in the press according to nexis:





> Aberdeen Evening Express
> 
> July 22, 2005
> 
> ...


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 22, 2009)

Well a lot of those accounts are just plain wrong.


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## tarannau (Aug 22, 2009)

You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you? Jeeper, even I managed to check and maintain tapes in numerous pubs, maintain a decent service. There's a point when incompetence becomes unacceptable too.

Endless experience of similarly suspicious blank spots and tapes persists through cases like this condition me to fear the worst.. In other cases even camera phones belonging to urbanites have had been confiscated and wiped.


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## agricola (Aug 22, 2009)

tarannau said:


> You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you? Jeeper, even I managed to check and maintain tapes in numerous pubs, maintain a decent service. There's a point when incompetence becomes unacceptable too.
> 
> Endless experience of similarly suspicious blank spots and tapes persists through cases like this condition me to fear the worst.. In other cases even camera phones belonging to urbanites have had been confiscated and wiped.



That is somewhat misleading tbh - for a start, there are (usually) separate systems for custody and the rest of the station.  The custody system is treated evidentially - the individual tapes sealed, given a unique number, entered into an evidence book and retained, and from what the Guardian article does (and does not) say it seems as if they have the full tape from custody which shows Rigg for long enough, and in enough detail, for the family to state what they have stated.  

The system that covers the rest of the station may (I have no idea what they do at Brixton or what system it is) be treated in the same way, though this can vary from station to station (largely because of system differences).

Secondly, I am unaware of any recent case of a death in police custody where the custody cctv has been "lost" or was "broken", there are not "endless" examples of that happening.


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## Wilson (Aug 22, 2009)

maybe the camera was genuinely broken since may, maybe they found this to be more advantageous than not

i read the guardian article btw and didnt think it misleading about which cameras worked seemed quite clear


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

gabi said:


> *yawn* I'm assuming you're here defending the indefensible again db?


* yawn *  I'm assuming you're drawing an absolutely solid conclusion based solely on prejudice rather than actually reading, debating and thinking about the fucking facts again, gabi?


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> this is the first appearance of that story in the press according to nexis:


And your point is?

Does nexis include transcripts of all 24 hour rolling news programmes?


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> And your point is?
> 
> Does nexis include transcripts of all 24 hour rolling news programmes?


bad day at the bookies?


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

tarannau said:


> You'd think it'd not be beyond the police to maintain an adequate CCTV system in a place like Brixton's police station though, wouldn't you?


They should.  But they don't.  That incompetence is something which needs to be factored in to judging whether or not there has been any conspiracy.  And even if they did, what would you expect them to do if a camera went down?  Close the station?


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## detective-boy (Aug 22, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> bad day at the bookies?


Answer the fucking question or fuck off.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 22, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> Answer the fucking question or fuck off.



not if you're going to take that shitty attitude.


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## likesfish (Aug 23, 2009)

Hostel staff are not highly trained mental health experts .
  "your not felling very well how about sitting down and having a cup of tea and a chat"   While another member of staff franticly phones for help.
  that usually ends up being the police.
     Getting somebody sectioned is a farcical situation getting mad person doctor social worker and ambulance in the same place hoping said mad person can't keep it together in front of the experts . Fact he's being losing it big time in the last few days putting himself at risk from getting twated by another resident etc


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 23, 2009)

I was often called out as an appropriate adult because Mental Heal social workers were unavailable. The FME at Brixton was pretty good. I wasn't trained to help people with mental health issues. I always attended with ciggies, chocolate bars and a friendly and calm manner which worked every time. 

The vast majority of Custody Sergeants I came across (bar one, who was a nasty bloke with a shitty attitude to the entire world, including his colleagues) were good, compassionate people. I was involved in Lay Visiting/ Appropriate Adulting for nearly seven years on a regular basis up to 3 times a week so I did get to know the Custody Suite staff (civilian and otherwise) pretty well.


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 23, 2009)

I think the major problem with the police now is too many inadequately trained young coppers. It used to be that a probationer went out with an experienced officer. Since the massive recruitment drive there are probationers going out with young inexperienced officers. Also the quality of those getting through has dropped. I think standards generally have dropped a lot over the last few years in Brixton and there had been a vast improvement from before. All that ground gained has gone down the drain.


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## shave (Aug 23, 2009)

nick h. said:


> even if he was going berserk it should be possible for four officers to restrain him safely. People go berserk when being arrested whether they're sane or not.


??? - I've seen a bloke go 'berserk' before, and I wouldn't want to be one of four people trying to keep him under control. No way.  This ain't hollywood, bud.  You no making no sense...


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 23, 2009)

I did once have to accompany someone who went berserk in Brixton Nick to hospital. He had been arrested for assault on a random member of the public. It took about four officers to get him into a cell. He then started beating his head against the wicket (the little sliding window in the cell door) which I witnessed so no 'yeah, right  ' comments please. He gave himself quite serious lacerations and it took eight officers to get him to hospital for stitches x-ray etc.

I was asked to go too, I think mainly as an independent witness and to safeguard his interests (which is the basic role of an Appropriate Adult). It was really alarming and he wasn't even a particularly big guy either. Every single officer was needed to restrain him. Once he got to KCH he was sedated as there was no way his injuries could be dealt with otherwise. I followed up what happened and he ended up being sectioned. He had a history of psychosis.


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## agricola (Aug 23, 2009)

shave said:


> ??? - I've seen a bloke go 'berserk' before, and I wouldn't want to be one of four people trying to keep him under control. No way.  This ain't hollywood, bud.  You no making no sense...



You can restrain someone with four people, but you usually end up doing more damage to that person than if you do it with, say, eight people.  




			
				Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I think the major problem with the police now is too many inadequately trained young coppers. It used to be that a probationer went out with an experienced officer. Since the massive recruitment drive there are probationers going out with young inexperienced officers. Also the quality of those getting through has dropped. I think standards generally have dropped a lot over the last few years in Brixton and there had been a vast improvement from before. All that ground gained has gone down the drain.



One wonders what the actual effect of changing the initial training programme at Hendon from an 18 week residential course to the non-residential mix of Hendon and locally based IPLDP training has been, in light of the above post.


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## Wilson (Aug 23, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> They should.  But they don't.  That incompetence is something which needs to be factored in to judging whether or not there has been any conspiracy.  And even if they did, *what would you expect them to do if a camera went down?*  Close the station?



maybe getting it fixed in a bit less than four months would be an idea.


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## detective-boy (Aug 23, 2009)

Wilson said:


> maybe getting it fixed in a bit less than four months would be an idea.


Who says it was out of order for 4 months?  

But even an immediate call out, or even an on-site engineer, wouldn't mean that there would be gaps ... and sods law states quite categorically that the bit that is important is on the camera that isn't working properly right in the middle of the period is isn't working (this is an absolutely immutable law!)


----------



## Wilson (Aug 24, 2009)

Oh!, Sorry you're right I was over exaggerating.




> Convinced there were more outdoor cameras nearby, Rigg's family demanded an audit of security cameras at the station. IPCC investigators then conceded there were more cameras overlooking the cage. But two weeks later, they said they had *tried to obtain the tapes and found the recorders had not been working for three months.*


link


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 24, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> Answer the fucking question or fuck off.


i'm rather surprised you decided to take this attitude with a source which actually supported what you were saying. in the light of that, perhaps you'd care to reconsider your fucking pisspoor behaviour.


----------



## detective-boy (Aug 25, 2009)

Pickman's model said:


> i'm rather surprised you decided to take this attitude with a source which actually supported what you were saying. in the light of that, perhaps you'd care to reconsider your fucking pisspoor behaviour.


I've reconsidered.

Fuck off, you supercillious prick.


----------



## detective-boy (Aug 25, 2009)

Wilson said:


> Oh!, Sorry you're right I was over exaggerating.


Missed that.  If it really was three months out of order than _that_ is worthy of serious questions being asked and I doubt that nayone can justify it not being picked up within a much shorter time.


----------



## Pickman's model (Aug 25, 2009)

detective-boy said:


> I've reconsidered.
> 
> Fuck off, you supercillious prick.


i've previously found mrs m a good judge of character but i fear in your case she's made an error


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 21, 2012)

FYI, this case has finally reached the inquest stage.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 21, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> FYI, this case has finally reached the inquest stage.


I mentioned it at the Church Urban Fund meeting at Karibu on Tuesday. The (Christian) policeman opposite me didn't flinch. Don't know how some of these guys sleep at night!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 27, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18595637

copper lying in court.  well i never.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 27, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-18595637
> 
> copper lying in court. well i never.


Did they test him for drugs (Sulpiride, Haloperidol, Olanzaline - you know psychiatric drugs. I got injected like that in the Charter Nightingale at Lissom Grove, and that's a posh people's hospital. The doctors at the police station could have done anything - especially if  on an ATOS contract. ATOS probably requires their doctors to piss all over the Hippocratic Oath as an initiation ceremony!)


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 27, 2012)

i doubt it.  coppers don't tend to administrate drugs.  kickings, asphixiation, brutal restraint techniques etc etc.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 27, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> i doubt it. coppers don't tend to administrate drugs. kickings, asphixiation, brutal restraint techniques etc etc.


No - I got strip searched in Brixton Police Station whilst a "rookie" Lambeth Councillor in 1994.
They thought I was gay (never!) - and took me in and strip searched me.
I won't go on - but why does being gay make you a candidate for strip searching?
The pair who arrested me must have been into public humiliation (in the cells that is) - or maybe they just wanted a peek at what was in my underwear!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 27, 2012)

could be.  humiliation was (is?) a fairly traditional tactic by all accounts.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

CH1 said:


> No - I got strip searched in Brixton Police Station whilst a "rookie" Lambeth Councillor in 1994. The pair who arrested me must have been into public humiliation (in the cells that is) - or maybe they just wanted a peek at what was in my underwear!


I also remember being shocked that there seemed to be a stream of (very) young black men - 13,14,15 - going past the door of MY cell presumably for the same treatment.
The arresting officer donned rubber gloves.
I was told to take off all my clothes, part my buttocks, then "Open It!", and they peered into the interior of my body using a police-issue torch. I was so annoyed I shouted "You perverts!" at which they said "Get dressed" and escorted me to a back entrance to the Police Station and more or less pushed me out the door. I demanded the custody record, at which they said "Get it from the front desk!"
The front desk refused to give me the custody record (not yet written presumably). They would post it they said.  
I was so shocked and angry that I made a complaint on council-headed note paper (copy to Cllr Marietta Crichton Stuart-Lib Dem chief whip).  If I can find it I will put it up. Meanwhile here is the response I got:


----------



## two sheds (Jun 28, 2012)

You might want to take your name and address off that?

The call handlers' performance was also less than spectacular:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...who-later-died-in-police-custody-7893465.html



> Call handler Maurice Gluck, who is recorded telling the hostel manager, Angela Wood, to go and complain to her MP is she was unhappy with the police response, told the jury that people often exaggerated about the seriousness of a situation and at the time he felt the hostel should have been able to cope with Mr Rigg’s psychosis.
> 
> Mr Gluck admitted that he had behaved unprofessionally towards Ms Wood, who last week broke down in court as the recordings of her desperate 999 calls were played in court.
> 
> ...


----------



## Plumdaff (Jun 28, 2012)

There is a real problem with how to get ill people to places of safety. Sadly I think a proportion of people will always require assistance from the police so we need a huge improvement in training and behaviour, at the moment it's a lottery. I know db doesn't post here any more but I do want to point out that excited delirium is a controversial diagnoses only recognised by police forces in the UK and USA, usually put forward only by their defence teams in deaths in custody cases.


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

two sheds said:


> You might want to take your name and address off that?


If you are referring to me that is precisely why I put it up.
My address was at Lambeth Town Hall and I complained with the knowledge and approval of my party group on the council at that time (1994).
Of course the Police say they now have cameras everywhere, so such things cannot happen any more.
Can they?


----------



## CH1 (Jun 28, 2012)

lagtbd said:


> There is a real problem with how to get ill people to places of safety. Sadly I think a proportion of people will always require assistance from the police so we need a huge improvement in training and behaviour, at the moment it's a lottery. I know db doesn't post here any more but I do want to point out that excited delirium is a controversial diagnoses only recognised by police forces in the UK and USA, usually put forward only by their defence teams in deaths in custody cases.


Of course it doesn't help that Lambeth Social Services closed the Effra Day Centre (for the Mentally ill) - another stroke of cost-saving genius from Donatus if memory serves.
The correct procedure at the moment if you are in mental distress is to attend A & E. We warned you at the time!!!


----------



## two sheds (Jun 28, 2012)

CH1 said:


> If you are referring to me that is precisely why I put it up.


 
fair play


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jun 28, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Of course it doesn't help that Lambeth Social Services closed the Effra Day Centre (for the Mentally ill) - another stroke of cost-saving genius from Donatus if memory serves.
> The correct procedure at the moment if you are in mental distress is to attend A & E. We warned you at the time!!!


 
of course, if you are suffering from psychosis, in my experience at least, one doesn't feel it necessary to attend A&E. 

i would also like to say that the standard procedure on risk assessments for mentally ill people with a history of offending is, should an episode / relapse occur: "However if the  situation escalates,such as noticeable agitation,violence towards staff and deterioration of  his mental health leadig to life threatening situations,staff must call the police to intervene and then inform  the care team of the incident and all actions to be taken" - a direct quote from a standard form approved by Supporting People, probation, and the Health Services.

By ignoring this for many hours the police created a situation where SR was even more agitated, and then treated him appallingly rather than as a sick man.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jun 29, 2012)

> A Metropolitan police constable involved in physically restraining a man who died soon after in custody has been accused at an inquest of telling “a pack of lies” after photographic evidence confirmed he held the detainee's face down for far longer than he claimed.
> PC Richard Glasson was one of three officers involved in restraining Sean Rigg, an acutely mentally unwell man, who died in Brixton police station in south London in August 2008.
> PC Glasson was accused of using “inappropriate and excessive” physical force on Mr Rigg's back which could have caused him to asphyxiate.
> PC Glasson, giving evidence for a second full-day at the inquest in Southwark Coroner's Court, denied holding down Mr Rigg using his knee, elbow or knuckles.
> ...


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ck-of-lies-over-death-in-custody-7899857.html


----------



## CH1 (Jun 29, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ck-of-lies-over-death-in-custody-7899857.html


When i got arrested at the Oval for cottaging in 1985 PC Nugent (aged 20 -under the age of consent at the time) told a pack of lies. The case was dropped by the police just before the start of the trail (at the Bailey incidentally)
I was bound over in the sum of £25 to keep the peace. 
PC Nugent was kicked out of the force about 5 years later for beating a black man up in the back of a Police van.
Tell me about it!
I have the cuttings!


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 3, 2012)

they can't even get their story straight for the inquest.  also, callous fuckers.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...o-sean-rigg-despite-cctv-footage-7904328.html


----------



## el-ahrairah (Jul 30, 2012)

My colleague complaining today that the Chief Inspector Matt Bell MBE has been talking on the stand about a protocol they had with SR's hostel for sharing information and care planning.  She was somewhat surprised by this seeing as she has records that show that Lambeth nick had been ignoring requests for a meeting to put in place protocols of that sort for six years.  Lying sod.  She was able to collar him afterwards and ask him why he was fibbing, before being ignored for a week until (and i believe that she threatened to go to the media with the evidence) he has now booked a date for a meeting to put in place the joint protocols that her mentally ill clients need for their own protection and the protection of the community in Brixton.  and all it took was one killing, four years, one perjury, and a threat.

Jury likely to return today or tomorrow.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2012)

Verdict expected at 2.30.  No-one here expects any guilt to be found, despite numerous coppers lying under oath.  But you never know.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 1, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19049173

I am informed that something called a section 24 notice was served by the coroner at the beginning of the inquest, meaning that the jury were unable to return a verdict of unlawful killing.  this narrative verdict was about as harsh a response as was legally permissible, and should allow the family to file a civil lawsuit.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 1, 2012)

So the police used "unsuitable force" before his death, but still cannot be held responsible for his death. Sounds familiar...


----------



## colacubes (Aug 1, 2012)

Piece on Newsnight about this now.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 2, 2012)

PC Glasson, PC Forward, CI Bell all told porkies under oath but it's PC Paul White that gets the blame, presumably because he admitted it.

This is amusing for a number of reasons.  I must try and meet officer White sometime.


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 21, 2012)

Four years today that the police killed Sean Rigg in Brixton Police station.

There is a march/protest and memorial service tonight. 6.30pm at the town hall for the service, followed by a peaceful march to the police station at about 9pm. (There will also be a protest about the violent arrest outside the Ritzy on Sunday.)

More details here: http://www.facebook.com/events/453255738047315/


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 21, 2012)

About 150 people on the march tonight, from the town hall to the police station. I didn't get to the town hall meeting but people there were shown a new docu-film which included CCTV footage from Brixton police station on the night Sean Rigg was killed. It certainly seemed to have had an effect on many who watched it, given the conversations I had with people afterwards.

you can see the film at 

http://vim eo.com/46132509 [use this link, remove the space in the URL]

Good to see a few urbanites there, and my old neighbour (who's had more than his fair share at the hands of lambeth police). We walked the short distance down the high street to the police station with people chanting and loads of journos and photographers in tow. Lots of support from motorists and passers by. People linked arms outside the police station and Sean Rigg's sister read out the names of the police who caused his death. It was heartbreaking. Sean Rigg's mother (i think) made the point that the police station is going to be refitted at the cost of £10m, but that the Met had been stalling over spending £4m to fit cameras in cells. People attached photos and candles to the tree outside the police station. The woman who witnessed the violent arrest outside the Ritzy on Sunday made a speech describing what she'd seen, and said she was going to hand in a complaint to the police. The crowd swarmed up the steps into the police station after her and filled the lobby.....there's still people there now.

Lots of high-ranking coppers were there talking to press and attempting to reason with people, but they got a fair bit of verbal abuse. It was all peaceful though.

Photos to come...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Aug 21, 2012)

Apols for slightly poor quality - only had the pocket camera today. (Also managed to upload them in a way which meant I couldn't subsequently reduce the size, doh, ah well....)

Outside the Town Hall:






Outside the police station





Crowd enters police station to deliver the complaint about Sunday's arrest:





Memorials to Sean Rigg on the tree outside the police station. RIP.





http://imgur.com/a/gNWnb#ozfm6


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 22, 2012)

And a vid of the march going down Brixton Road from the Town Hall to the police station:


----------



## Onket (Aug 22, 2012)

Does look like a decent turn out.


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## el-ahrairah (Aug 22, 2012)

it was very good to see so many people.  terrible circumstances but some old-fashioned brixton unity.


----------



## shygirl (Aug 24, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> PC Glasson, PC Forward, CI Bell all told porkies under oath but it's PC Paul White that gets the blame, presumably because he admitted it.
> 
> This is amusing for a number of reasons. I must try and meet officer White sometime.


 
If it's the PC Paul White I think it is, the police have been wanting him out for some time.   Extra twattish, and a liability in terms of PR.

Good to see the photos and video of march.  Was in Wales so couldn't be there, but great to see solidarity like that.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 24, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> My colleague complaining today that the Chief Inspector Matt Bell MBE has been talking on the stand about a protocol they had with SR's hostel for sharing information and care planning. She was somewhat surprised by this seeing as she has records that show that Lambeth nick had been ignoring requests for a meeting to put in place protocols of that sort for six years. Lying sod. * She was able to collar him afterwards and ask him why he was fibbing*, before being ignored for a week until (and i believe that she threatened to go to the media with the evidence) *he has now booked a date for a meeting to put in place the joint protocols that her mentally ill clients need for their own protection and the protection of the community in Brixton*. and all it took was one killing, four years, one perjury, and a threat.


 
Any news on this?


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 24, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-19049173
> 
> I am informed that something called a section 24 notice was served by the coroner at the beginning of the inquest, meaning that the jury were unable to return a verdict of unlawful killing. this narrative verdict was about as harsh a response as was legally permissible, and should allow the family to file a civil lawsuit.


 
Just read this bbc report. The Coroners report say Sean was let down by Police, IPCC and the Hospital that was supposed to be looking after him. Quite staggering list of blunders, incompetence, poor training and callousness. 

All goes to show that people with mental health problems do not get much support in reality.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Aug 28, 2012)

DaveCinzano said:


> Any news on this?


 
As of the march he hadn't got back into contact.  She spoke to him then to "remind him", and he was wriggling.  It's pretty clear he has no intention of setting up the meeting or having any sort of protocol with Sean's former care home, no matter what he said in court.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 28, 2012)

Interesting...


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Sep 4, 2012)

el-ahrairah said:


> My colleague complaining today that the Chief Inspector Matt Bell MBE has been talking on the stand about a protocol they had with SR's hostel for sharing information and care planning. She was somewhat surprised by this seeing as she has records that show that Lambeth nick had been ignoring requests for a meeting to put in place protocols of that sort for six years. Lying sod. She was able to collar him afterwards and ask him why he was fibbing, before being ignored for a week until (and i believe that she threatened to go to the media with the evidence) he has now booked a date for a meeting to put in place the joint protocols that her mentally ill clients need for their own protection and the protection of the community in Brixton. and all it took was one killing, four years, one perjury, and a threat.
> 
> Jury likely to return today or tomorrow.





el-ahrairah said:


> As of the march he hadn't got back into contact. She spoke to him then to "remind him", and he was wriggling. It's pretty clear he has no intention of setting up the meeting or having any sort of protocol with Sean's former care home, no matter what he said in court.


There is a Sean Rigg public meeting on Tuesday 11th September 6:30 pm at the Stockwell Resource Centre, 1 Studley Road SW9. The police will be there, so perhaps they could be asked this question...


----------



## el-ahrairah (Sep 5, 2012)

i wil suggest it.  you'll appreciate i'm not going to take any action that puts my job at risk.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 10, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> There is a Sean Rigg public meeting on Tuesday 11th September 6:30 pm at the Stockwell Resource Centre, 1 Studley Road SW9. The police will be there, so perhaps they could be asked this question...


Just to remind people the meeting is at 6.30 Tuesday 11th September ...
I'm thinking of taking a bottle of Haloperidol tablets and inviting people to join in the Sean Rigg experience. Maybe after a few hours slumped in front of their TV set unable to focus on the screen they might understand why he skipped his injections.
To me this is the crux of the matter. It is all very well demanding to know why the SLAM staff failed to inject Sean Rigg regularly - but no-one who has had the experience of battling to get these mental health professionals to moderate their over-medication will understand things from Sean's point of view. 
If your rights are effectively taken away because you are labelled as mad, how is it better having a life sentence of inappropriate medication than being locked in an asylum? 
Anyone who has had to attend one of the SLAM "community bases" where patients attend for depot injections will observe how many patients are chronically over-weight and physically deformed by the treatment they are getting.
I never knew Sean, though someone I chat to outside the parade of shops in Coldharbour Lane did know him - as a fellow user of the Fanon Day Centre on Railton Road. "Nice guy - used to play the guitar at the day centre" he said.
When I was put on Haloperidol in 1997 I was lucky to get off it very quickly - but I was working, and as I was working at a disability charity dealing with "clients" with a similar diagnosis I was able to take repeat trips (from work) to ward rounds at S3 in the Maudsley to negotiate better medication for my own needs.
I imagine Sean would not have had any of that flexibility - being black, unemployed and automatically treated as Schizophrenic.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 11, 2012)

Last call - CPCGL meeting Stockwell Resource Centre 6.30 pm Tuesday 11th September
Personally I expect much wringing of hands - the Police Commander will doubtless be in full Pontius Pilate mode!
What a criminal and senseless waste of a life.


----------



## CH1 (Sep 11, 2012)

Last call - CPCGL meeting Stockwell Resource Centre 6.30 pm Tuesday 11th September
Personally I expect much wringing of hands - the Police Commander will doubtless be in full Pontius Pilate mode!
What a criminal and senseless waste of a life.
View attachment 22982


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 26, 2012)

CH1 said:


> Last call - CPCGL meeting Stockwell Resource Centre 6.30 pm Tuesday 11th September


 
What happened?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 27, 2013)

*Danny Shaw*@DannyShawBBC
IPCC arrest 2 serving and 1 former Met officers as part of inquiry into evidence given at inquest into death of Sean Rigg in police custody


----------



## Brixton Hatter (Mar 27, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> *Danny Shaw*@DannyShawBBC
> IPCC arrest 2 serving and 1 former Met officers as part of inquiry into evidence given at inquest into death of Sean Rigg in police custody


Cheers Butchers, well spotted. Interesting...so the fuckers are alleged to have lied in court and perverted the course of justice.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/27/police-arrested-custody-sean-rigg


----------



## Gramsci (Mar 28, 2013)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Cheers Butchers, well spotted. Interesting...so the fuckers are alleged to have lied in court and perverted the course of justice.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2013/mar/27/police-arrested-custody-sean-rigg


 



> The IPCC said officers arrested police sergeant A, 50, at his place of work on suspicion of perjury and perverting the course of justice, police constable B, 29, at an address in south London on suspicion of perjury and perverting the course of justice, and retired police constable C, 48, by appointment at a central London police station on suspicion of perverting the course of justice.
> An IPCC spokesman said: "Investigators have today arrested two serving and one retired Metropolitan police service officers in connection with the ongoing investigation into evidence given at the inquest into Sean Rigg's death.
> "IPCC investigators have carried out searches at their home addresses and the serving officers' workplaces. Mr Rigg's family have been told about today's developments through their solicitors."


 
I wonder what IPCC think really happened?
I remember that one reason there was a problem with this case was that Sean died in the police station. Whatever happened was not recorded as the CCTV in that part of the station was not working.
See this old Guardian article



> Rigg's family demanded an audit of security cameras at the station. IPCC investigators then conceded there were more cameras overlooking the cage. But two weeks later, they said they had tried to obtain the tapes and found the recorders had not been working for three months.
> Rigg's family suspect a cover-up. The IPCC's claim about CCTV contradicts repeated assurances given to the family by a senior police officer two days after Rigg died. Suzanne Wallace, a chief inspector who was in charge of the station, was caught on tape saying CCTV was working and recordings had been seized.
> "I know that's been seized because on the night the officers from the DPS [Department of Professional Standards] were asking about the CCTV," she said. "And that was one of my questions: is the CCTV working, is it running, is there a tape in there? You know – very basic, but it's really, really important. And that was all to the affirmative.


So I wonder if these arrests are about the missing tapes from the CCTV?


----------



## ymu (Mar 28, 2013)

Two perjuries, three perverting the course. So yeah, very plausible that it's to do with the conveniently absent CCTV.

Just like Hillsborough, Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson,... perhaps the IPCC have worked out what an MO is?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 28, 2013)

ymu said:


> Two perjuries, three perverting the course. So yeah, very plausible that it's to do with the conveniently absent CCTV.
> 
> Just like Hillsborough, Jean Charles de Menezes, Ian Tomlinson,... perhaps the IPCC have worked out what an MO is?


 
You're optimistic.




			
				IPCC said:
			
		

> We have been unable, based on the evidence made available to us, to establish, beyond any reasonable doubt, what a so-called 'MO' is.
> 
> Accordingly we find that the police have no case to answer, and declare this investigation closed.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 28, 2013)

DaveCinzano said:


> What happened?


Wish I'd noticed and responded to you at the time.
What happened at the meeting might well have contributed to the news events now. My recollection is hazy after 6 months, but:
1. Anna Tapsell gave an account of what happened to Sean Rigg immediately prior to the police taking him in, including that Sean had ceased taking the meds, behaviour had become erratic and perceived by staff as threatening. This resulted in the support staff at the hostel locking themselves in their office and calling the police. Police had not responded in a timely fashion - nor when they picked him up were they in any way observing correct procedures in dealing with someone in mental distress - in other words they were very much arresting him, not taking him to a place of safety. 
2. There were people there to speak for Lambeth Social Services and SLAM (the mental health service), though I only recall Jill Lockett from SLAM speaking. She was very uncomfortable - and admitted there had been failings in this case.
3. The woman from the IPCC (Dame Anne Owers) spoke - less than convincingly I thought. Full of excuses about the IPCC process.
4. Police area commander Neil Basu spoke authoritatively - admitting that this sort of thing could happen again whilst the mental system continues as is.
5. Samantha Rigg-David (sister) very much put the human side of what happened and how let down the family had been, Lee Jasper and Marcia Rigg (also sister) meanwhile put the political angle very forcefully.
Don't recall the Police Brixton Commander speaking.
Jill Lockett subsequently made a report to Lambeth Scrutiny Committee, which is available here
Personally I found it difficult listening to barn storming political analysis at the meeting, but there is a truth there, and if it were not for the commitment and support of radical voices it would all be water under the bridge - no justice done and no consideration of how improvements must be made.

I admire the family and their supporters for their quest for truth and change.


----------



## CH1 (Mar 28, 2013)

I would also like to add - though this was not aired at the meeting - that the hostel Sean was living in is apparently a high care hostel run on American lines by Penrose Housing Association. They specialise in addictions and criminal recidivism. Nothing I have heard about Sean Rigg necessarily puts him in that category.  Sean's medication (haloperidol) is very much consistent with treatment of alcoholism or heroin addiction and as along-term treatment could be viewed as punitive.
I wonder whether he was in the right sort of institution - and on the right sort of medication.
Haloperdiol has quite unpleasant side effects. I still question why no-one considers WHY Sean stopped taking the tabs.
SLAMs view (as per Jill Locketts report referenced above) only seems to think that the treatment should have been enforced - and that the failure was that Sean was not sectioned.


----------



## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2013)

5th anniversary of his death in custody on 21st August 2008. Two shot of memorial on Wednesday.


----------



## el-ahrairah (Apr 9, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-26954364

getting closer, maybe...


----------



## shygirl (Apr 12, 2014)

The arrested sergeant is a bully and an idiot.  He wasn't liked by the community he covered nor by his colleagues, cos he's one of those types who, when they put on a uniform or get a little power, become like a little fascist.  Incidentally, someone who witnessed Sean's arrest near the hostel reported that Sean was hit on the head with a shoe by one of the officers.   When he was dying in the cage outside the station, a doctor tried to attend to him but was prevented by one of the officers who said he was dealing with it.  There was so much wrong with the handling of this case, from start to finish.  The family have been amazing and will not rest until they get some justice for Sean.


----------



## MrSki (May 29, 2014)

shygirl said:


> The arrested sergeant is a bully and an idiot.  He wasn't liked by the community he covered nor by his colleagues, cos he's one of those types who, when they put on a uniform or get a little power, become like a little fascist.  Incidentally, someone who witnessed Sean's arrest near the hostel reported that Sean was hit on the head with a shoe by one of the officers.   When he was dying in the cage outside the station, a doctor tried to attend to him but was prevented by one of the officers who said he was dealing with it.  There was so much wrong with the handling of this case, from start to finish.  The family have been amazing and will not rest until they get some justice for Sean.


Officer resigns ahead of disciplinary investigation . Family call on Met to withdraw acceptance of resignation.
from Inquest


----------



## shygirl (May 29, 2014)

Its things like this that render any so-called commitment by the Met to root out wrong-doing completely fucking meaningless.  I totally blame Hogan fucking Howe for accepting this cowardly and extremely cynical resignation. They're nothing but a shower of c**ts.  Whatever trust I had has now been completely destroyed.


----------



## shygirl (May 29, 2014)

MrSki said:


> Officer resigns ahead of disciplinary investigation . Family call on Met to withdraw acceptance of resignation.
> from Inquest



Its not the same officer as the one I spoke about above, his name was Sgt jobsworth wanker White.


----------



## Ms T (May 29, 2014)

MrSki said:


> Officer resigns ahead of disciplinary investigation . Family call on Met to withdraw acceptance of resignation.
> from Inquest


The IPCC have also got involved.


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## Gramsci (May 29, 2014)

MrSki said:


> Officer resigns ahead of disciplinary investigation . Family call on Met to withdraw acceptance of resignation.
> from Inquest



So this is a well known tactic of police to avoid being investigated for misconduct.


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## Gramsci (May 29, 2014)

Inquest are doing a lot to help the family of Sean Rigg.

Where are the local politicians? Why are they not publicly supporting the family of Sean Rigg?


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## CH1 (May 30, 2014)

Gramsci said:


> Inquest are doing a lot to help the family of Sean Rigg. Where are the local politicians? Why are they not publicly supporting the family of Sean Rigg?



Marcia Rigg interviewed on this on Radio 4 (23 minutes in) http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b044j94q

Regarding politicians - the MPs responsible are Chuka and Tessa.
Personally I think Kate Hoey would have at least said something, had it been a Vauxhall issue.

Local politicians: who would now be responsible? Was Hopkins (now Jobs & Growth). There is no defined portfolio apparently containing policing and community issues as far as I can see. 
A bit worrying really.


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## butchersapron (May 30, 2014)

INQUEST suggesting he's going to be stopped from resigning.


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## MrSki (May 30, 2014)

Resignation withdrawn by Met.


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## shygirl (May 30, 2014)

MrSki said:


> Resignation withdrawn by Met.



Fantastic result!


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## MrSki (May 30, 2014)

Inquest press release


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## DaveCinzano (May 30, 2014)

_The family of a man who died in police custody have won their battle to stop an officer involved in the case resigning ahead of an official investigation.

Sean Rigg's relatives were outraged when the Metropolitan police accepted the PC's resignation before a new inquiry by the Independent Police Complaints Commission could formally place him under investigation.

Rigg, 40, died in 2008 after being restrained by police. The jury at his inquest condemned his treatment, saying the level of force was "unsuitable".

Now the Met has reversed its decision, hours before the Rigg family were due to go to the high court to ask a judge to injunct the police to prevent the officer from resigning. The Met announced on Friday that the officer, PC Andrew Birks, had been suspended and the acceptance of his resignation rescinded.

The decision to reverse the original decision, the Met said, was influenced by several factors including the imminent legal action by Rigg's family, and "the need for public confidence". The Met's climbdown came three hours before the Rigg family's attempt to gain an injunction was listed to be heard before a judge and the acceptance of his resignation came before the officer could be served with a formal notice that he was under investigation..._

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2014/may/30/sean-rigg-death-met-officer-resignation-rejected


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## MrSki (Jun 2, 2014)

Channel 4 news clip


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## Tolpuddle (Jun 22, 2014)

Bit of a bump here, but spot the similarities

http://www.standard.co.uk/news/crim...-in-street-outside-vauxhall-club-9551600.html

But I wonder how similar the outcomes will be?


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## butchersapron (Sep 17, 2014)

Birks' challenge now being heard in high court



DaveCinzano said:


> The family of a man who died in police custody have won their battle to stop an officer involved in the case resigning ahead of an official investigation.
> 
> Sean Rigg's relatives were outraged when the Metropolitan police accepted the PC's resignation before a new inquiry by the Independent Police Complaints Commission could formally place him under investigation.
> 
> ...




Met refused request by Andrew Birks to retire because it would mean he would not face inquiry over 2008 death of Sean Rigg




> A Metropolitan police officer facing investigation over the death of a man in custody says he wants to leave the force to become a minister in the Church of England, the high court has heard.
> 
> PC Andrew Birks was stopped from retiring from the force in June and is under investigation over the death of Sean Rigg, who died on the floor of a police station in 2008.
> 
> Birks is challenging the decision by the Met to refuse his request to retire, saying it breaches his human rights. If accepted it would have meant he would not have faced the investigation.


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## CH1 (Sep 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Birks' challenge now being heard in high court
> Met refused request by Andrew Birks to retire because it would mean he would not face inquiry over 2008 death of Sean Rigg


According to the BBC Birks "is due to be ordained on 28 September."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-29239371

This seems to take the church back into 18th century world of Rev John Newton, who after working on a slave ship repented, becoming famous for writing the hymn "Amazing Grace"

I would have expected the church to ask for a delay pending the outcome of the inquiries - not to rush ahead ordaining someone who might be found to have been criminally negligent or worse.

But then I'm not a bishop.


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## SpamMisery (Sep 17, 2014)

A criminally negligent or worse copper is probably only a mid-ranking wrongdoer by the Church's standards (if that)


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 17, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> Birks' challenge now being heard in high court
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jesus goat-felching Christ. It's "benefit of clergy" for the modern age - he's playing the "pity me, I'll become a priest" card!


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## MrSki (Sep 25, 2014)

High court has blocked Birks JR on his attempt to quit the Met to become a priest.

ETA


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## MrSki (Sep 25, 2014)

Inquest press release here.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

No charges against sergeant and constable for lies, due to “insufficient evidence”:

_...insufficient evidence to prove that the answers given were not mistakes and there is insufficient evidence to show that the custody sergeant had an intention to pervert the course of justice. With regards to perjury at the inquest, 4 years after Mr Rigg’s death, we have concluded that there is insufficient evidence that any statement made by the custody sergeant at the inquest was not his genuine belief and was a falsehood made wilfully..._

..._insufficient evidence to demonstrate that the police constable intended to pervert the course of justice..._

_...insufficient evidence that the officers conspired together to commit any offence..._​

http://blog.cps.gov.uk/2014/10/char...erjury-allegations-in-the-sean-rigg-inve.html


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## Pickman's model (Oct 7, 2014)

one law for them etc


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## el-ahrairah (Oct 7, 2014)

protecting their own as usual.


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## Mr.Bishie (Jul 8, 2015)

*Police officer in Sean Rigg case to face perjury charge over inquest evidence*

*http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...jury-charge-inquest-evidence?CMP=share_btn_tw*


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 8, 2015)

Mr.Bishie said:


> *Police officer in Sean Rigg case to face perjury charge over inquest evidence*
> 
> *http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/...jury-charge-inquest-evidence?CMP=share_btn_tw*


.
Maximum sentence 2 yrs, and he'll likely get a suspended sentence *if* convicted. Where the fuck is Frank Castle when you need him?


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## Winot (Nov 8, 2016)

CourtNewsUK is reporting Sergeant Paul White cleared.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 8, 2016)

Winot said:


> CourtNewsUK is reporting Sergeant Paul White cleared.


No surprise there then


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## GarveyLives (Nov 9, 2016)

Police Sergeant Found 'Not Guilty' of Perjury Following The Death of Sean Rigg in 2008  (click for more)


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## GarveyLives (Nov 14, 2016)




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## Gramsci (Nov 14, 2016)

GarveyLives said:


> Police Sergeant Found 'Not Guilty' of Perjury Following The Death of Sean Rigg in 2008  (click for more)



So its accurate to say the Police Sergeant made up a load of bollox to cover the police from any responsibility for Seans death.

And that he got off on a technicality.

One might conclude that this is not down to one officer lying ( a rotten apple in the barrel argument)but its that the police institutionally themselves who cover there arses.

Sean was someone with mental health issues. His death should never have happened.

Thanks for putting the link up. An informative read.

The family have been pursuing this with no help from local politicians.

Its been down to help from the legal profession. Like Doughty Chambers who do a lot of good work for people. Says something about politics in this country when its elements of the legal profession who stick up for the underdog.


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## CH1 (Nov 14, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> The family have been pursuing this with no help from local politicians.


Former councillor Anna Tapsell should be given some credit. She was very diligent in presenting the facts in the context of policing and mental health in Lambeth. I was at this keeting for example, where Anna Tapsell's presentation was a valuable summary of the events leading up to Sean's death, and the many situational problems - in Sean's hostel as well as the critical policing issues.

I am a great admirer of Anna Tapsell. Anna was a Labour councillor from 1986 until she was de-selected for radicalism in the early Blair years.


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## Brixton Hatter (Nov 17, 2016)

GarveyLives said:


> Police Sergeant Found 'Not Guilty' of Perjury Following The Death of Sean Rigg in 2008  (click for more)


Fucking disgrace 

So depressing.

No justice, no peace.


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## Gramsci (Nov 19, 2016)

CH1 said:


> Former councillor Anna Tapsell should be given some credit. She was very diligent in presenting the facts in the context of policing and mental health in Lambeth. I was at this keeting for example, where Anna Tapsell's presentation was a valuable summary of the events leading up to Sean's death, and the many situational problems - in Sean's hostel as well as the critical policing issues.
> 
> I am a great admirer of Anna Tapsell. Anna was a Labour councillor from 1986 until she was de-selected for radicalism in the early Blair years.
> View attachment 95521



I am sure her diligent presenting of the facts did not do her any favours with the Blairite mob.


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## CH1 (Nov 19, 2016)

Gramsci said:


> I am sure her diligent presenting of the facts did not do her any favours with the Blairite mob.


I would imagine she fell foul of them over stock transfers etc. Actually Cllr Davie - Thornton Ward - also took on board the dreadful chain of events leading to Sean Rigg's death, referring to the case in a MOPAC borough consultation meeting.

The problem with all things to do with health and mental health is rationing of resources.
1. Sean was in outsourced "supported accommodation" run along American lines. When he became distressed and potentially violent the staff didn't know what to do - locked the office and rang 999 (which wasn't answered).
2. Sean was picked up stripped and apparently raving by a passing police van. They presumably thought he was drunk, or affected by drugs - mental health protection being their last consideration.

Already your have several issues:
1. Is a profit making American-style drug rehab hostel appropriate for someone with long-term schizophrenia?
2. Why, when the Police were the last resort for staff unable to deal with a resident did they not come out at the request of the hostel?
3. Have police been adequately trained when casually picking up distracted people of the street.
4. Presumably max force is always a risk - to mentally ill people or people with zonked out on drink and/or drugs.

We know all this - and what seems to be an issue is getting individuals who have contributed to a death to take responsibility.

Plus the system is failing people with mental illness. I can remember a bitterly contested case of a patient over-dosed by psychiatrists in Tooting Bec hospital in the 1980s. 

Anna Tapsell did do a good job of documenting everything that went wrong in Sean Rigg's case. But her political crimes were more to do with resisting privatisation is council housing and council services.


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## GarveyLives (Nov 21, 2016)




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## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2016)

GarveyLives said:


>


what time's it on?


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## GarveyLives (Nov 22, 2016)

8.00 p.m.


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## GarveyLives (Dec 6, 2017)

The latest development ...

Sean Rigg's family say decision not to charge police is _shameful_ (click for more)


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## Maharani (Dec 6, 2017)

Despicable but sadly not surprising. Thanks for link...


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## GarveyLives (Feb 16, 2018)

... and now:

_"A Met Police officer facing a possible gross misconduct hearing following the death in custody of a mentally ill man is attempting to retire from the force ..."_

Sean Rigg death: Custody officer 'trying to retire'  (click more)


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## CH1 (Feb 17, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> ... and now:
> 
> _"A Met Police officer facing a possible gross misconduct hearing following the death in custody of a mentally ill man is attempting to retire from the force ..."_
> Sean Rigg death: Custody officer 'trying to retire'  (click more)


It's 10 years now. Who was it who said "Justice delayed is justice denied"?


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## GarveyLives (Mar 4, 2018)

... Sgt Paul White's attempt to leave the Metropolitan Police Force before he can face disciplinary proceedings seems to have failed:

Scotland Yard blocks retirement of officer over Sean Rigg death

In addition, the Independent Office of Police Conduct (IOPC) believes the five officers involved in Mr Rigg's death should face allegations including the alleged use of excessive force and use of inappropriate restraint techniques, failing to identify and treat Mr Rigg as suffering from mental health problems and failing to protect him from harm:

Exclusive: watchdog urges charges over death in custody


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## GarveyLives (Apr 13, 2018)

Nearly ten years after his death ...

_"The police watchdog has directed the Met Police to begin gross misconduct hearings against five officers over the custody death of a mentally ill man ..."

Sean Rigg custody death: Met directed to begin hearings (click for more)_


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## GarveyLives (Aug 25, 2018)

Amid the 'edginess', 'vibrancy' and 'diversity' of today's Brixton, a sad tenth anniversary passes without mention ..

Met police sets _2019_ date for hearings into death of Sean Rigg in 2008 (click for more)


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## Gramsci (Aug 30, 2018)

GarveyLives said:


> Amid the 'edginess', 'vibrancy' and 'diversity' of today's Brixton, a sad tenth anniversary passes without mention ..
> 
> Met police sets _2019_ date for hearings into death of Sean Rigg in 2008 (click for more)






> Deborah Coles of Inquest said: “There would have been a coverup if it was not for the persistence of Marcia Rigg and her family, at great personal cost to them, and it’s still going on into an 11th year.



Thry have been pursuing this with no help from politicians. All credit to them for persevering .


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## GarveyLives (Jan 21, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Amid the 'edginess', 'vibrancy' and 'diversity' of today's Brixton, a sad tenth anniversary passes without mention ..
> 
> Met police sets _2019_ date for hearings into death of Sean Rigg in 2008 (click for more) ...


The latest twist in the story of one family's quest to find out how their son and brother came to be killed after his arrest on Brixton Hill ...

Sean Rigg death: Met officers’ hearing could be _scrapped_ (click for more)


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## Gramsci (Jan 21, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> The latest twist in the story of one family's quest to find out how their son and brother came to be killed after his arrest on Brixton Hill ...
> 
> Sean Rigg death: Met officers’ hearing could be _scrapped_ (click for more)



This is Kafkaesque. The Police officers ( one now a priest) now say that such a long time has passed that the hearing should be stopped as its unfair on them. 

The Police have dragged their feet over this death for years. Trying to stop the family get any kind of justice. Now those directly involved say they won't get a fair hearing?

This is bollox. 




> Lawyers for the officers are considering telling the panel they cannot get a fair hearing after such a long period of time. The officers have protested their innocence and the case has been going on for so long one has retrained as a Church of England priest.


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## justin credible (Jan 21, 2019)

I was a good friend of Sean's brother Wayne when Sean died.  

The police conduct surrounding and following the death has been appalling. There are aspects to this story that I have been told in confidence and cannot repeat here, but the whole thing stinks.  

It is Kafkaesque.  

Criminal cult leaders do this.  They commit crimes and then get their lawyers to drag their legal cases out for years and then claim abuse of process / statute of limitations; just disgusting to see the police doing it.  The Rigg family have suffered so much, endured so much and with great dignity.  The family has also shown ingenuity and incredible resilience.  They conducted their own investigation. interviewed witnesses and collected evidence that the police couldn't be bothered to collect.  The lies the police told were exposed as such and yet still no justice.  I hope it is a case of better late than never but I'm not holding my breath.


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## GarveyLives (Feb 1, 2019)

justin credible said:


> I was a good friend of Sean's brother Wayne when Sean died.
> 
> The police conduct surrounding and following the death has been appalling. There are aspects to this story that I have been told in confidence and cannot repeat here, but the whole thing stinks.
> 
> ...



Sean Rigg custody death: Policemen *fail* to have misconduct case dropped (click for latest)






*PC Andrew Birks has since been ordained as a Church of England priest 

Amen !!!*​


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## CH1 (Feb 1, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> Sean Rigg custody death: Policemen *fail* to have misconduct case dropped (click for latest)
> 
> 
> PC Andrew Birks has since been ordained as a Church of England priest​


​
If I were a believer at that church I would probably change to a different parish, although in his wisdom Archbishop Cranmer laid down guidance for such situations:

*26 The sacraments are not rendered ineffectual by the unworthiness of the minister*
Although in the visible church the evil are always mingled with the good and sometimes evil people possess the highest rank in the ministry of the Word and sacraments, nevertheless since they do not do these things in their own name but in Christ's and minister by his commission and authority, we may use their ministry both in hearing God's Word and in receiving the sacraments. The effect of Christ's institution is not taken away by the wickedness of these people, nor is the grace of God's gifts diminished, so long as the sacraments are received by faith and rightly. The sacraments are effectual because of Christ's institution and promise, even though they may be administered by evil men.
Nevertheless, it belongs to the discipline of the church that investigation be made into evil ministers. Those who are accused by witnesses having knowledge of their offences and who in the end are justly found guilty, should be deposed.
(from the 39 articles)


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## CH1 (Feb 13, 2019)

I didn't know, but apparently this hearing into the conduct of the police officers involved in the death of Sean Rigg is open to members of the public to attend, subject to the conditions below:
https://www.met.police.uk/SysSiteAs...nduct-public-hearings-conditions-of-entry.pdf

These conditions ban filming, photography mobile phone use - including tweeting. Also banned are laptops - except for accredited press reporters.

Can't see that note taking is banned - so that might be OK. 

I'm not sure I would particularly fancy sitting through this hearing - which may still have three weeks to go, judging by the time set aside.

There is a general information page on the issue here:
Deaths in police custody

Be interesting to know what Lambeth Council & SLAM have learnt from this case, as their (?poor?) care provision must have been one of the contributing factors.


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## DietCokeGirl (Mar 1, 2019)

Sean Rigg: five officers cleared of misconduct over death in custody

Disappointing but sadly not surprising.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2019)

So...

IPCC (coppers) find the coppers innocent of any wrong-doing
The Inquest Jury finds the coppers guilty of wrong-doing
The Met has now investigated its own coppers and found them not guilty of any wrong-doing


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## Pickman's model (Mar 1, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> So...
> 
> IPCC (coppers) find the coppers innocent of any wrong-doing
> The Inquest Jury finds the coppers guilty of wrong-doing
> The Met has now investigated its own coppers and found them not guilty of any wrong-doing


How splendid British justice is


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Mar 1, 2019)

Pickman's model said:


> How splendid British justice is



Finest in the world


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## Chilli.s (Mar 1, 2019)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> IPCC (coppers) find the coppers innocent of any wrong-doing
> The Inquest Jury finds the coppers guilty of wrong-doing



This basic opposite opinion says that something is wrong with the way deaths like this are investigated. IPCC is broken or just never been fit for purpose.


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## Gramsci (Mar 1, 2019)

DietCokeGirl said:


> Sean Rigg: five officers cleared of misconduct over death in custody
> 
> Disappointing but sadly not surprising.



I remember at one of the Brixton Neighborhood Forums the head of Brixton police mentioning that Sean Rigg case. That if people had issues with police they should come and talk to him. The implication being that going to outside agencies was wrong.

I heard Cressida Dick, head of Met now, recently say the Met is now transformed since the days of Stephen Lawrence. She was arguing that Macpherson finding that Met is institutionally racist are no longer relevant as the new Met is caring and sharing PC organisation.

Cressida who ordered killing of innocent Brazilian.Never affected her career or fat salary.  But forget that she went to right university , came from right background and ticks the PC box as she is Gay. Heard hear on Desert Island discs last week. Winds me up people like her , same age as me, getting this privilege. The Police in general, in difference to Joe Public, are a privileged class in this country imo.

Here is  piece from Guardian article that says it all imo:


> Another witness, Insp Andrew Dunn, refused to give verbal evidence to the panel in protest at how long it had taken to bring proceedings. He referred lawyers to his written statement and even refused to say whether he recognised himself in CCTV footage from the station on the night Rigg died.



The police are a law unto themselves.



In reality Jo Public has little say.

With getting rid of Scarmans inspired Police-community consultative committees even less community oversight is possible.

The Sean Rigg case shows the difference between tokenism and actual real ability to challenge Met actions.


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## GarveyLives (Mar 4, 2019)




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## editor (Aug 5, 2019)

Great to see this issue highlighted so prominently in Brixton 






Brixton graffiti demands justice for Sean Rigg, ‘killed by the Brixton police’


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## CH1 (Aug 7, 2019)

I was trying to remember the name of the person who died having been through the treatment regime at Tooting Bec Hospital.
It was Orville Blackwood.

This PhD thesis surveys such cases.It is an interpretive sociological work rather than medical, containing extensive quotes from Foucault.
A bit like reading a history of Lambeth Council prefaced by extensive quotations from Marx.
http://researchonline.ljmu.ac.uk/id/eprint/10244/1/2019SpeedPhD1.pdf


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## GarveyLives (Aug 21, 2019)

editor said:


> Great to see this issue highlighted so prominently in Brixton
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Coming as it did, shortly before today’s anniversary of the killing of *Sean Rigg* in Brixton, this is an unorthodox, but welcome reminder of the fight for the truth that his family and their relatively small band of supporters and legal advisers have waged for the past 11 years. They should be commended for having kept this case (and through their work with the United Friends and Families Campaign, similar cases) in the public consciousness for so long that someone was moved to take such direct action.

A number of the early posts on this thread provide a sombre and disturbing reminder of the forces and attitudes that stood before them at the outset of their struggle.	



*Lest We Forget*​


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## editor (Aug 21, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> A number of the early posts on this thread provide a sombre and disturbing reminder of the forces and attitudes that stood before them at the outset of their struggle.


Exactly what do you mean? Which posts, by whom?


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## Gramsci (Aug 21, 2019)

GarveyLives said:


> A number of the early posts on this thread provide a sombre and disturbing reminder of the forces and attitudes that stood before them at the outset of their struggle.
> 
> 
> 
> *Lest We Forget*​




You still haven't answered editor question.

What posts are you talking about?

This thread imo has been sympathetic to the plight of the family of Sean.

So what exactly are you implying?


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## GarveyLives (Aug 21, 2020)

On the 12th anniversary of his killing ...

UK police brutality is worse – they use bare hands, says sister of man who died in custody


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## GarveyLives (Aug 22, 2021)

The Sean Rigg case was remembered by some in Brixton on the 13th anniversary of his killing ...

*Sean Rigg* custody death: Virtual statue unveiled outside Brixton police station to mark anniversary


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## CH1 (Aug 22, 2021)

editor Gramsci if you look at page one of this thread there are various post saying things like --- glad to see forty is still classified as a young man--- and ----could have had a heart condition----.
Apologies for my punctuation problem here - my Chromebook needs junking.

The point is a man has died and people are making sarcastic/satirical comments like this was Gilbert and Sullivan or Round the Horne.
I am with GarveyLives  if this is what s/he is getting at.


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## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2021)

CH1 said:


> editor Gramsci if you look at page one of this thread there are various post saying things like --- glad to see forty is still classified as a young man--- and ----could have had a heart condition----.
> Apologies for my punctuation problem here - my Chromebook needs junking.
> 
> The point is a man has died and people are making sarcastic/satirical comments like this was Gilbert and Sullivan or Round the Horne.
> I am with GarveyLives  if this is what s/he is getting at.



Just looked back at page one. Pretty standard U75. Ending with detailed post by someone who knew the family.

Garvey continually baits this forum, never answers questions on any statement he makes and cut and pastes with no real comment.

I don't have time for it tbf. Garveys little digs are never explained or clarified. Classic case of wind up Internet baiting. I've better things to do in my like than to bother with it anymore.


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## Gramsci (Aug 22, 2021)

Holding the Flame / Aswarm
					

The first in a series of Augmented Reality Statues inserted in Brixton and public spaces as interventions, offering an alternate possibility to the statues in our streets.




					www.aswarm.com
				




Its a virtual statue. Unfortunately at moment only works on apple app. Says android will come later.

So idea is to go the outside the police station. Use camera to see the virtual statue.

I think its clever idea.


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## CH1 (Sep 2, 2021)

This Guardian article includes a video  giving an account ifr the death of Olaseni Lewis in the Bethlem Hospital. Restraint by eight police officers.
Marcia Rigg appears at the beginning of the film








						RIP SENI director: why I made a film about a graffitied artwork, race and mental health
					

Daisy Ifama discusses her documentary about why graffiti was emblazoned outside the Bethlem royal, a psychiatric hospital in south London




					www.theguardian.com


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## BillRiver (Sep 2, 2021)

This is worth a watch. Lowkey interviewing Marcia Rigg about the murder of her brother Sean and the aftermath. Very moving.

https://youtube.com/c/apoliticalorg


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## GarveyLives (Aug 21, 2022)

Restrained to death ...







(Source:  www.independent.co.uk)

*Lest We Forget 21 August 2008*​


----------

