# Brilliant news for Tipi Valley



## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 19, 2006)

Its legal HUURRAAAHHH 

a victory for alternative living


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## ddraig (Jan 19, 2006)

woooooooooooohooooooooooooooo

nice one, cheers!


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## Dubversion (Jan 19, 2006)

that's excellent news, and a long time coming. top stuff.


i mean..erm.. fuck the hippies. yeh, fuck em

(shuffles off hoping nobody noticed).


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## aurora green (Jan 19, 2006)

Good news for a change!
(I saw you Dub  )


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## ddraig (Jan 19, 2006)

yay! non abusive englanders invasion! you two can come over anytime


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## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2006)

Tally Valley hasn't got planning permission as a whole, Brig Oubridge has got it for 3 benders/tipis and a wagon. There's still another 100 or so people there without it.

Ground Elder chants the following mantra: "Dub's a hippy, Dub's a hippy"


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## Dubversion (Jan 19, 2006)

Ground Elder said:
			
		

> Tally Valley hasn't got planning permission as a whole, Brig Oubridge has got it for 3 benders/tipis and a wagon. There's still another 100 or so people there without it.



does Brig's success bode well for the others, or isn't it that simple?


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## ddraig (Jan 19, 2006)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> does Brig's success bode well for the others, or isn't it that simple?


 should do i hope, precedents and all that?
let's hope anyway


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## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2006)

I suspect it means the Council will be less likely to try and evict anyone who has been there for a while  

pdf with details of the in outs of Brig's case up to 1996.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 19, 2006)

sadly there was a case of some people living near Bishopston on the gower in what amounted to wooden huts/chalets a few years ago and the planning application meant some of them couldnt be evicted and yet others who were more recent and who hadnt got permenant sanitation, water supply etc etc could.  

Here 
are some details on Holtsfield, although it was all happening a few years ago i think some of it is still rumbing on. The developer who owns the land upped rents on the land and also tried to evict people. It got pretty nasty and alot seemed to come down to planning issues. there are similarities between tipi valley and Holtsfield. Hopefully other people will get similar permissions but its by no means certain or guaranteed.


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## Ground Elder (Jan 19, 2006)

There was an excellent, if traumatic, film about Holtsfield on one of the Undercurrents videos.

Brig Oubrige has got a certificate of lawful use, (think that's what they call them), rather than actual planning permission, because the development had been there over ten years. Any other applicants would have to prove that their dwellings had also been there for a significant amount of time. Had the decision gone against Brig, I expect the council would have swiftly moved in on the others, either serving enforcement notices or inviting them to put in a planning application.  

Holtsfield was a little different in that the residents didn't own the land their homes were on, just the chalets.


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## Redstar (Jan 19, 2006)

ddraig said:
			
		

> yay! non abusive englanders invasion! you two can come over anytime



 Yeah aren't they just a load of Sais dropouts who don't want to mix with the locals? It's a welsh speaking area but I bet none of em speak a word of Cymraeg...twt twt


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 20, 2006)

No, but their kids do, and without them the village school at Cwmdu would have closed years ago for lack of pupils. It's a relief for the local council too as the cost of rehousing all those families would have been astronomical. My ex-landlord* lives there and has done for about 28 years. They're a bit knitted yoghurt, some of them, but on the whole very nice folk.



*not a property owner, I had the spare room in his council house till the council demolished it to build a shopping centre, which is when he went there with his wife and three kids.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 20, 2006)

Oh, and there are Welsh Irish and Scots there. Brig is posh and English though.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 20, 2006)

I'm more interested in their right to live a peaceful alternative lifestyle which is pretty much eco friendly that who they are ethnically.
At least they arent  being anti social to their neighbours,wrecking the land and leaving devatastion behind them while they do it.
good on em


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 21, 2006)

I know that every summer they get problems with 'tourists' and there has been a perennial problem with 'tourists' dogs worrying and killing sheep.


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## Rik the Vic (Jan 31, 2006)

*About Tipi Valley*

Hi, I've just got a computer and I'm new to all this. I've lived in Tipi Valley since 1979, and most of our land is quite legally lived on, for the 10 years change of use rule applies whether you apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use or not. The Council has no intention of trying to get rid of us anymore. Brig's legal victory is purely symbolic from our point of view, and I don't think we'll go for it. But I am an amateur historian and archivist, and I have accurate records of where every dwelling has been situated for the last 26 years if we needed to. Living in the Valley is the best thing I ever did. Mother Earth, I love you!


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## ddraig (Jan 31, 2006)

Hi Rik
thanks for your post, that is indeed good to know   
welcome to urban, please stick around


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## mabinogi (Jan 31, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> Its legal HUURRAAAHHH
> 
> a victory for alternative living




Some sense in the madness at last!  Great news!


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## Mrs Magpie (Jan 31, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> Hi, I've just got a computer and I'm new to all this. I've lived in Tipi Valley since 1979, and most of our land is quite legally lived on, for the 10 years change of use rule applies whether you apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use or not. The Council has no intention of trying to get rid of us anymore. Brig's legal victory is purely symbolic from our point of view, and I don't think we'll go for it. But I am an amateur historian and archivist, and I have accurate records of where every dwelling has been situated for the last 26 years if we needed to. Living in the Valley is the best thing I ever did. Mother Earth, I love you!


*Waves at Rik, my all-time favourite C of E vicar and thanks you for the Christmas card*


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## LilMissHissyFit (Jan 31, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> Hi, I've just got a computer and I'm new to all this. I've lived in Tipi Valley since 1979, and most of our land is quite legally lived on, for the 10 years change of use rule applies whether you apply for a Certificate of Lawful Use or not. The Council has no intention of trying to get rid of us anymore. Brig's legal victory is purely symbolic from our point of view, and I don't think we'll go for it. But I am an amateur historian and archivist, and I have accurate records of where every dwelling has been situated for the last 26 years if we needed to. Living in the Valley is the best thing I ever did. Mother Earth, I love you!


 weclome to the welsh forum


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## durruti02 (Feb 6, 2006)

sorry to be negative .. but i knew a few ( unrelated) people who lived for a short while at tipi valley in the 8ts and they said it was nasty/horrible .. very very sexist .. women cooked and men sat around in the steam lodge .. said it was like some fucked up suburbia .. hunting sheep with dogs .. only time when people came together was for dole cheques .. everyone drinking special brew .. bloke went away and left his dogs in caravan .. with dead sheep or horse to eat   .. kids all with really bad bronchitis from smoke .. most locals hated them ?? etc etc etc .. i'd always liked the sound of it before then .. true or false??


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## citydreams (Feb 6, 2006)

durruti02 said:
			
		

> true or false??



Might be true for some, but it's not the experience I gained from meeting t.p. folk on a land reclamation in south london.  They were growing their own strawberries, had compostable toilets and communal meals.  Was a sound environment to grow up in.


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## Space Girl (Feb 7, 2006)

that's excellent news, I had a lot of friends who used (and might still) live there in the mid 80's, 

durruti02 - I never saw any of the things you mention however I was young and I suppose would have been oblivious to it anyhow, but I do recall going to the alamo where some people from the tally valley used to go to and quite often you would see vans of sleeping children parked outside with no adults around, but the same happens now when a parent pops into tescos leaving their child asleep in the car.


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 8, 2006)

I don't recognise any of that durruti02, but I wish I could say that going to live in a wonderful place like Tipi Valley has a St Francis-type transformative effect on people. But the truth is, if you're you're a wanker before you go to the Valley, going to the Valley isn't going to suddenly make you a nice person. The Valley has had to put up with some pretty awful people from time to time over the years, because it has always been an open community. Personal growth is a slow process. Valley people aren't morally superior to folks from anywhere else, and some of us are egocentric twats making the beautiful life seem impossible to achieve. My experience of the Valley tells me though that Paradise is possible on Earth. And the Valley is a very magical place. The dogs-killing-sheep problem was sorted out in 1983. There's no-one really dire living in the Valley these days, just one or two Minor Twats. Most of us are really nice, like you would expect to find in any locality. Alcohol doesn't help. But what's important is that Tipi Valley is there, that it's open for people to come and give the lifestyle a try (so long as they don't bring a dog). That's all for now. All love.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 8, 2006)

I;d go and live there, I just couldnt do without my central heating


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## Brockway (Feb 9, 2006)

What is it with hippies and Wales? We're like a poor man's India to them. How come Tipi Valley is in Wales and not say... the Lake District?


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 10, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> What is it with hippies and Wales? We're like a poor man's India to them. How come Tipi Valley is in Wales and not say... the Lake District?


What's this old "us and them" bollocks? None of the old Welsh-speaking inhabitants in Cwmdu where Tipi Valley is think in that way anymore.
After we'd learnt how to respect our neighbours, we soon found that the old locals, including the farmers, have been happy enough to accept us as neighbours and respect us too. Some of the farmers who once thought of us as "the hippy problem" are now amongst my best friends and I love them.
I must admit my Welsh speaking is pretty meagre, but I and some others do go to Welsh classes, again more out of respect for our neighbours than to be really fluent. My kids (now adults), both tipi-born, regard themselves as Welsh, though I'm English and Mum's Chinese.  All of us, whether we think of ourselves as Celtic or Anglo-Saxon, all share in a British gene-pool which started here 10,000 years ago at the end if the last ice age. We all belong to the good Earth.
The hippies don't destroy the old traditional Welsh culture, we help maintain it: e.g. my kettle and skillet and pans of cast iron, perfect for use on open fires, are antique Welsh ones abandoned to junk shops, the rushes we strew on our floors are the same sort that the locals used for the same purpose until the twentieth century. There are no elites anymore. If there's an us-and-them between some English and some Welsh it's a townie thing not a hippie thing. It's not as if we're part of the monied English who move to Wales and push up house prices forcing young local couples to have to move away. We're not displacing anybody and we contribute to the local economy and life, especially in the realm of folk-music. Cwmdu, tiny as it is, now has it's own Post Office, shop and Pub (all run by the local community) as a part of the revival of local life, of which we hippies are an accepted part (and not as claimants and pissheads anymore).
Enough of this cynical us-and-them claptrap. It's just not real, not round here anyway. Life is for living, not whinging. And P.S. The Lake District is a "Celtic" area too. Thanks for making the effort to read all this, but putting people down with vague generalisations is self-destructive and sad.


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 10, 2006)

LilMissHissyFit said:
			
		

> I;d go and live there, I just couldnt do without my central heating


  Ah! a chance to be pedantic!! Tipis do have central heating- literally!


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## Brockway (Feb 10, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> What's this old "us and them" bollocks? None of the old Welsh-speaking inhabitants in Cwmdu where Tipi Valley is think in that way anymore.
> After we'd learnt how to respect our neighbours, we soon found that the old locals, including the farmers, have been happy enough to accept us as neighbours and respect us too. Some of the farmers who once thought of us as "the hippy problem" are now amongst my best friends and I love them.
> I must admit my Welsh speaking is pretty meagre, but I and some others do go to Welsh classes, again more out of respect for our neighbours than to be really fluent. My kids (now adults), both tipi-born, regard themselves as Welsh, though I'm English and Mum's Chinese.  All of us, whether we think of ourselves as Celtic or Anglo-Saxon, all share in a British gene-pool which started here 10,000 years ago at the end if the last ice age. We all belong to the good Earth.
> The hippies don't destroy the old traditional Welsh culture, we help maintain it: e.g. my kettle and skillet and pans of cast iron, perfect for use on open fires, are antique Welsh ones abandoned to junk shops, the rushes we strew on our floors are the same sort that the locals used for the same purpose until the twentieth century. There are no elites anymore. If there's an us-and-them between some English and some Welsh it's a townie thing not a hippie thing. It's not as if we're part of the monied English who move to Wales and push up house prices forcing young local couples to have to move away. We're not displacing anybody and we contribute to the local economy and life, especially in the realm of folk-music. Cwmdu, tiny as it is, now has it's own Post Office, shop and Pub (all run by the local community) as a part of the revival of local life, of which we hippies are an accepted part (and not as claimants and pissheads anymore).
> Enough of this cynical us-and-them claptrap. It's just not real, not round here anyway. Life is for living, not whinging. And P.S. The Lake District is a "Celtic" area too. Thanks for making the effort to read all this, but putting people down with vague generalisations is self-destructive and sad.



I'm making a general point about the exoticisation of Wales by some English people. In the Romantic era, if you couldn't afford to go to Europe on the Grand Tour you went to north Wales. In the sixties and seventies if you couldn't afford a magic bus trip to India - you went to Wales. But why Wales? Why do we have more of a lure for hippies than say, Scotland and most of England (Glastonbury excepted)?

Oh and that stuff about sharing a British gene-pool is nonsense.


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## llantwit (Feb 10, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> What's this old "us and them" bollocks? None of the old Welsh-speaking inhabitants in Cwmdu where Tipi Valley is think in that way anymore.
> After we'd learnt how to respect our neighbours, we soon found that the old locals, including the farmers, have been happy enough to accept us as neighbours and respect us too. Some of the farmers who once thought of us as "the hippy problem" are now amongst my best friends and I love them.
> I must admit my Welsh speaking is pretty meagre, but I and some others do go to Welsh classes, again more out of respect for our neighbours than to be really fluent. My kids (now adults), both tipi-born, regard themselves as Welsh, though I'm English and Mum's Chinese.  All of us, whether we think of ourselves as Celtic or Anglo-Saxon, all share in a British gene-pool which started here 10,000 years ago at the end if the last ice age. We all belong to the good Earth.
> The hippies don't destroy the old traditional Welsh culture, we help maintain it: e.g. my kettle and skillet and pans of cast iron, perfect for use on open fires, are antique Welsh ones abandoned to junk shops, the rushes we strew on our floors are the same sort that the locals used for the same purpose until the twentieth century. There are no elites anymore. If there's an us-and-them between some English and some Welsh it's a townie thing not a hippie thing. It's not as if we're part of the monied English who move to Wales and push up house prices forcing young local couples to have to move away. We're not displacing anybody and we contribute to the local economy and life, especially in the realm of folk-music. Cwmdu, tiny as it is, now has it's own Post Office, shop and Pub (all run by the local community) as a part of the revival of local life, of which we hippies are an accepted part (and not as claimants and pissheads anymore).
> Enough of this cynical us-and-them claptrap. It's just not real, not round here anyway. Life is for living, not whinging. And P.S. The Lake District is a "Celtic" area too. Thanks for making the effort to read all this, but putting people down with vague generalisations is self-destructive and sad.



Nice post Ric - thanks. Informative and really interesting.


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## pogofish (Feb 10, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Why do we have more of a lure for hippies than say, Scotland?



Plenty in Scotland as well IME.  Just in most cases the remotness of the most favoured areas mean they can get on with their lives that bit further away from public gaze & I can think of plenty of places where various groups of hippies have integrated pretty well with the general community.

Of course the harsher winters in some parts may have a role too.  Those not willing to cooperate with/respect the established community & make a serious go of it tend not to stay that long.


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## loftiandpat (Feb 10, 2006)

*well Ric the Vic*




			
				Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> What's this old "us and them" bollocks? None of the old Welsh-speaking inhabitants in Cwmdu where Tipi Valley is think in that way anymore.
> After we'd learnt how to respect our neighbours, we soon found that the old locals, including the farmers, have been happy enough to accept us as neighbours and respect us too. Some of the farmers who once thought of us as "the hippy problem" are now amongst my best friends and I love them.
> I must admit my Welsh speaking is pretty meagre, but I and some others do go to Welsh classes, again more out of respect for our neighbours than to be really fluent. My kids (now adults), both tipi-born, regard themselves as Welsh, though I'm English and Mum's Chinese.  All of us, whether we think of ourselves as Celtic or Anglo-Saxon, all share in a British gene-pool which started here 10,000 years ago at the end if the last ice age. We all belong to the good Earth.
> The hippies don't destroy the old traditional Welsh culture, we help maintain it: e.g. my kettle and skillet and pans of cast iron, perfect for use on open fires, are antique Welsh ones abandoned to junk shops, the rushes we strew on our floors are the same sort that the locals used for the same purpose until the twentieth century. There are no elites anymore. If there's an us-and-them between some English and some Welsh it's a townie thing not a hippie thing. It's not as if we're part of the monied English who move to Wales and push up house prices forcing young local couples to have to move away. We're not displacing anybody and we contribute to the local economy and life, especially in the realm of folk-music. Cwmdu, tiny as it is, now has it's own Post Office, shop and Pub (all run by the local community) as a part of the revival of local life, of which we hippies are an accepted part (and not as claimants and pissheads anymore).
> Enough of this cynical us-and-them claptrap. It's just not real, not round here anyway. Life is for living, not whinging. And P.S. The Lake District is a "Celtic" area too. Thanks for making the effort to read all this, but putting people down with vague generalisations is self-destructive and sad.




Damn It Ric your more convincing than the leaflet   Keep it up   wouldnt mind getting in touch with you on another matter if you have a few mins .. if not no biggee..  love light peace..  Lofti


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## Brockway (Feb 10, 2006)

loftiandpat said:
			
		

> Damn It Ric your more convincing than the leaflet   Keep it up   wouldnt mind getting in touch with you on another matter if you have a few mins .. if not no biggee..  love light peace..  Lofti



What's convincing about that pile of colonialist bollocks? A bunch of (mostly) white middle-class English people colonise a part of Wales and he wants us to be grateful. He even manages to say some of my best friends are Welsh. Then he makes up some bollocks about the English and Welsh sharing the same gene-pool for 10,000 years. Hippies - yuk. Did I buy all those punk records in vain?   

And did he really say we're all of the earth? I now have to go to the hospital to have my toes surgically uncurled.


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## llantwit (Feb 10, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> What's convincing about that pile of colonialist bollocks? A bunch of (mostly) white middle-class English people colonise a part of Wales and he wants us to be grateful. He even manages to say some of my best friends are Welsh. Then he makes up some bollocks about the English and Welsh sharing the same gene-pool for 10,000 years. Hippies - yuk. Did I buy all those punk records in vain?
> And did he really say we're all of the earth? I now have to go to the hospital to have my toes surgically uncurled.


   
'Aw, give him a break Del. That's all a bit harsh, mate.
Hippies have rights too!!!


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## LilMissHissyFit (Feb 10, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> Ah! a chance to be pedantic!! Tipis do have central heating- literally!



LOL   yes yes
They have hot baths supplied direct by tap too? Oh and my footspa and hairdryer


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 11, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> What's convincing about that pile of colonialist bollocks? A bunch of (mostly) white middle-class English people colonise a part of Wales and he wants us to be grateful. He even manages to say some of my best friends are Welsh. Then he makes up some bollocks about the English and Welsh sharing the same gene-pool for 10,000 years.
> 
> 
> Brockway, who's the "us" you keep mentioning? How many members do you have? Do you imagine you are speaking for all Welsh people, or all Welsh people who actually live in Wales, or for Wales itself in some way? Well, at least you speak for yourself.  I think of myself as English because I was born in Hammersmith and was brought up in England. 4 out of my 8 great grandparents were Welsh. Does that mean I forfeit the right to live anywhere without being regarded as a colonist? Are none of your ancestors whatsoever English? I'm not at all sure about the "middle-class" bit, a few here may be. I do admit to being white though, sorry it really wasn't my choice, I just got born that way.
> ...


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## thefuse (Feb 11, 2006)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> does Brig's success bode well for the others, or isn't it that simple?


i know that a couple of sites in somerset have got temporary permission for benders and wooden shelters and im friends with a woman whos just got permission to keep her straw bale house after years of red tape and bullshit.
things do appear to be changing slowly


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## durruti02 (Feb 12, 2006)

Rik the Vic said:
			
		

> I don't recognise any of that durruti02, but I wish I could say that going to live in a wonderful place like Tipi Valley has a St Francis-type transformative effect on people. But the truth is, if you're you're a wanker before you go to the Valley, going to the Valley isn't going to suddenly make you a nice person. The Valley has had to put up with some pretty awful people from time to time over the years, because it has always been an open community. Personal growth is a slow process. Valley people aren't morally superior to folks from anywhere else, and some of us are egocentric twats making the beautiful life seem impossible to achieve. My experience of the Valley tells me though that Paradise is possible on Earth. And the Valley is a very magical place. The dogs-killing-sheep problem was sorted out in 1983. There's no-one really dire living in the Valley these days, just one or two Minor Twats. Most of us are really nice, like you would expect to find in any locality. Alcohol doesn't help. But what's important is that Tipi Valley is there, that it's open for people to come and give the lifestyle a try (so long as they don't bring a dog). That's all for now. All love.



fair play mate .. all my stories were from the early 8ts .. sounds like a lot of that stuff has been sorted .. and yes (strong) alcohol seems a curse on most attempts at communal living .. though i guess it is just a symptom of underlying problems .. i don't get why so few places though don't try to deal with it though .. to much live and let live!!  it's all anarchy


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## *Miss Daisy* (Feb 12, 2006)

Hippies Are Cool Mannnnnn!!!


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## loftiandpat (Feb 13, 2006)

*Dear Brock .. a few points to your point to point out the point of being free..*

But I'm not a warrior like you, I'm a softie (though physically quite strong) and I've had enough of this verbage. You live your way, and I'll live mine, and with this I say goodbye and all the best to you.

R the V 


Well I am,  I and people like me  brothers  Sisters and  blacks and whites  all of us fight and fought for you to have your say Brock to show the world how well you have been educated  but most of all to provide you with the freedom of speech you now enjoy ..Brock  but i dont expect thanks  i do, it seems, expect people  like yourself to stand and whine and moan about how we are the colonists  we are the hippys   and  you bought a punk record too huh? well done,  so did  i  but went the whole hog and listened to the real heavy metal that followed .. point ?  rebellion ?  rebel from what  society ??  ummm doesnt that make you .   the same as Ric and his  lets live in a tent on a hillside??   rebelling against england by moving to wales for what ever reason   you rebelled against society too and  look where it got you ??  

He even manages to say some of my best friends are Welsh. Then he makes up some bollocks about the English and Welsh sharing the same gene-pool for 10,000 years.

well yes He does and they well may be ..  but then some of my best freinds are welsh   and a few are scotish and dare i say it i even know a yellow skinned indian  whose great for producing  fire water .  my point?  i served with taffies, jocks,  pastie crunchers, The Irish    and some very odd people from a place called norfolk   i placed my life in their hands s  they did so for me ..  nothing changes  as we all did it for you and you didnt even know .. !! 

 Ric is right in saying you share the same gene pool with the english  but  he ommitted the Irish  and Scots  who you also swapped homes with around 2 thousand years ago   so hey you got a lot of celt in ya   but then so do most reading this board..  there is a old saying i think you should think over..    before typing engage brain .. We all belong to the good Earth. true enough  it does not belong to us how ever ..  we rent it from our kids and they from theirs..  so before you scream and wine about hippies being yuk and   its all bollox lets look at what the punk movement  actually contained  ok ?

In 1977, merely suggesting that the Queen was a moron (or a potential H Bomb) would get you banned from the charts. These days  The Sex Pistols could duet with Eminem, three strippers and a donkey and roll Her Majesty around Trafalgar Square in a barrel and nobody would give a damn. Times have changed.

Punk took Great Britain (the entertainment industry and the general public) completely by surprise. In the mid 1970s, the massive tornado of the British Invasion of the 60s was a fading memory whose survivors sat atop the charts with pale echoes of their best work. Disco and soft rock/pop were the trends of the day (as they were also in the USA).

Britain's economy was flailing and more and more teenagers left school to go straight on the dole with little hope of financial success or social stimulation.

Malcolm McLaren, who ran a boutique in London that catered to an ever-changing clientele seeking alternative fashion, was on the look-out for a band of loutish adolescents to use as a platform for his loosely held anarchist ideas.

He harboured aspirations to manage The New York Dolls, but when that band disintegrated he looked to even scruffier, younger musicians that frequented his store. In late 1975 the Sex Pistols began to perform with McLaren as their manager and mentor.

Throughout 1976, the Sex Pistols built up a fierce underground following with incendiary live shows which were often violence-ridden chaotic affairs.  Late in 76, their debut single Anarchy in the UK established punk's modus operandi - ear-splitting  guitars, hyperactive tempo and inflammatory and venomous lyrics . . . with raw energy carrying the lot.

Johnny Rotten was goaded into swearing on national television and Fleet Street descended on punk with horror headlines and outrage.

Other groups were already following the Pistols'  blueprint and quickly stepped into the breach. The most famous members of what came to be called the 'Class of '77' were The Damned, The Clash (who mixed punk and politics), The Jam (Mods who modelled themselves after the early Who) and The Buzzcocks (whose punk sensibilities did not hide their keen grasp of pop hooks). 

These bands were just the tip of an explosion that saw many minor but important groups adding their voices to the fray. Generation X, The Adverts, The Vibrators, The Saints (from Australia), X-Ray Spex, Slaughter & The Dogs and Chelsea are all esteemed by collectors for the one or two memorable songs they had in them.

Overnight, hordes of angry kids from huge, decaying council estates and soulless high-rise blocks, who were able to relate to the punk movement, chipped in to buy mini sound-systems and bashed away at cheap guitars.

London venues such as the Vortex, Nashville Room, 100 Club, The Roxy and The Marquee threw open their doors to thousands of safety-pinned, cropped top, pogoing punks. At the same  time, most council-owned halls barred any form of punk performance. 
Today, early British punk records still  sound exciting. At the time however, they were also the epitome of nihilistic shock. They could not have caused more of a sensation. 

The tempo was FAST (although hardcore eventually made it even faster!), the guitars and vocals were LOUD and the lyrics addressed politics, sex, depression and society with a frank realism that had rarely been heard in popular music.

The performers were not seasoned virtuoso's and they valued inspiration and attitude above professionalism. Some listeners viewed the end-result as unbearably crude. Others welcomed them as a necessary shot of air to blast rock & roll out of its complacency.

Punk never really took hold in the USA as it did in Britain (although those who were converted took up the music with a passion that equalled their British counterparts).  

The Sex Pistols found this out the hard way, with Johnny Rotten leaving the group in 1978 after the last show of a brief but legendarily chaotic American tour, where their album Never Mind The Bollocks stopped just short of the Top 100. 

Perhaps punk failed to take hold in the US because it was diametrically opposed to the American Dream. US rock audiences liked a working class hero - as long as he behaved like a star. So in the US in the mid-Seventies there weren't many takers for the notion of well brought-up, middle class kids ripping perfectly good clothes and pretending to have been born in the gutter.

Another reason Punk never took off in America (aside from the fact that the conventional music business chose to ignore it) was the sheer size of the country. Unlike in Britain, independent record labels could not reasonably expect to have anything more than a local hit.

In the end, punk did not so much die out as mutate and diversify. As liberating as the first wave of punk was, it was  impossible to perform an endless loop of hyper-fast, bile-filled anthems, as the musician's ambitions broadened and their musical skills improved.

The Jam remained huge stars in the UK through the early 80s, like The Clash who became stars in the USA at long last after 1979s London Calling LP, they refined their sound and incorporated reggae, R&B, soul and pop into their compositions without ever compromising their integrity.

Original British punksters like Generation X and Sham 69 played themselves out almost immediately and others went into arty minimalism (eg: Wire and The Fall), psychedelia (Soft Boys), pop (The Undertones) or new wave (Siouxsie & The Banshees).

By 1980, new wave had become the new label for a modified, tamed but no less innovative offspring of the original punk explosion.  

see the thing about  this is this brock.. punk only followed where others have trodden   the hippies you decry set the limits and boundries  that punk  flouted. In fact if it wasnt for the hippies   punk wouldnt and couldnt have happened.. here let me show you why in my next post ..


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## loftiandpat (Feb 13, 2006)

The Role of the Hippie in American Culture American society and culture experienced an awakening during the 1960s as a result of the diverse civil rights, economic, and political issues it was faced with. At the center of this revolution was the American hippie, the most peculiar and highly influential figure of the time period. Hippies were vital to the American counterculture, fueling a movement to expand awareness and stretch accepted values. The hippies’ solutions to the problems of institutionalized American society were to either participate in mass protests or drop out of society completely. The government and the older generations could not understand their way of life. Hippies were often portrayed as criminals, subversive to the morals and best interest of the public. 

Although misunderstood, the hippie had a great impact throughout the country, still surviving today in American culture. The term “hippie” itself became a universal term in the late sixties. It originated in a 1967 article in Ramparts, entitled “The Social History of the Hippies.” Afterward, the name was captured by the mass media as a label for the people of the new movement. (Yablonsky 28) Even before this, the word “hip” described someone who was “in” and “down”, wise to what was going on around him. By the 1960s, some of America’s youth created a gap between themselves and their parents. 

They grew their hair long because it was natural and therefore considered beautiful. At first, the idea of men with long hair was absurd and society considered it a sign of homosexuality. When it became clear that the establishment felt so strongly about hair, the attitudes of young rebels changed. One young man responded after being questioned about his unkempt appearance: Growing hair does not mean that I am or am not a homosexual. It does mean that I am willing to stand up for my rights as a human being an that includes my right to be harmless to all people. It also indicates my unwillingness to get on the treadmill of killing for a vast machine-like government. 

If I am scorned and called dirty because I allow hair to grow on my face and my head, then so much the better, for by this I indicate the seriousness of my belief. I scorn the society that has created this monstrous robot-like conformity that feeds the war machine as Hitler found robots to feed his war machine.

 (Perry 188) In contrast to the short crew-cut style that every young man adhered to during the fifties, the hippie popularized a diversity of hairstyles with no single ideal image to fit. The clothes worn by hippies were also chosen to express anti-establishment sentiments to the public. They tried to stay away from store-bought, expensive clothes. Their pants, shirts and dresses were made of comfortable, natural fibers like cotton and denim. Many articles of clothing were handcrafted, such as belts, shoes, necklaces, and headbands. As poverty spread, the hippie wardrobe grew increasingly shabby. They shopped at thrift shops and places like the Diggers’ Free Store. “Gray, dingy, torn clothes and broken shoes became the characteristic style of the hippies.” (Wolf 18) Spawned out of necessity rather than style, these clothes were another symbol of their retaliation against the system. The hippies’ approach toward life was much more relaxed and open-minded than the rest of society. They all agreed on the importance of brotherhood among people of all races and ethnicity. Preaching a motto of love and kindness, hippies tried to spread their beliefs into society. “By handing out flowers, singing songs, and making orations, these young people tried to make America hear its message of love.” (Kornbluth 250-253) People would share resources amongst each other, making sure everyone got a portion of the food, drink, clothes that the group managed to get. This was completely opposite to the government policies favoring sharp economic inequality, allowing starvation and poverty to continue. “The Diggers of San Francisco attempted to do their part, organizing free meals and handouts”. (Wolf 11) This charitable display demonstrated the kindness and gentleness of the hippies to the American public. They hoped that the rest of the population would follow in their example and help the indigent unfortunately they did not. 

The hippies, did however, gain respect in the eyes of the public as champions of the poor. Sex was a major issue associated with the hippie culture of the sixties. Society had built up barriers against intimate contact between the sexes for decades. Throughout American history, pre-marital sex was offensive and unacceptable to society. “The hippies challenged these limits by practicing sexual activities spontaneously an openly. Their promiscuity left the nation in disbelief: having multiple partners and engaging in casual sex with little emotional engagement.” (Mills 112-113) The female’s sensuality was actually realized and flaunted. These girls did not dress in conservative, concealing clothes to hide themselves. Hippies realized the beauty of the human body; as a result they found no need to hide it. One hippie’s remark about the women he associated with was quite noteworthy, “See the girls in the miniskirts? See the beautiful legs. Yes they lead to the …! & these girls do not tease… they *censored*. Can you take it?” (Kornbluth 206). Of course, society strongly disagreed with this behavior. The deviation from the nuclear family ideal imposed upon them was a vital step for the hippies. “Through this gesture, they abolished the possessiveness and materialism associated with marriage.” (Westhues 41-42) Illegitimate children and unrestricted sex created a negative stigma, but it brought the hippies even more attention from the American public. Although many people did not approve of the hippie lifestyle and some turned their heads, they made a lasting impression on social boundaries. The possibilities of sexual freedom they presented to the “straights” took root and eventually widened their boundaries as well.


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## loftiandpat (Feb 13, 2006)

The hippies openly advocated the use of drugs to enhance the monotony of daily life and to raise awareness. Marijuana and LSD were their most prevalent drugs of choice because of their psychedelic properties. “Grass” had been illegal since 1937, so dealing with it was a criminal offense. The hippies used marijuana for numerous purposes, unable to find the negative effects that the government had been spreading for decades. David Solomon, editor of The Marijuana Papers stated comically in regard to weed: Like Spearmint, it aids concentration and helps you do almost anything a little bit better. It grows hair on the palm of your hands, introduces you to a nice type of black man, overcomes impotence, improves appetite, banishes excess bat, constipation, and headaches, and relieves rheumatism…. In short, it’s a miracle drug. A pot nation is a powerful nation. Possible side effects: a feeling of dreamy nonchalance, heightened sense of awareness, bursts of introspection, mellowing attitude towards one’s fellow man, especially if he’s stoned beside you. (Neville 127) The continued use of marijuana, despite legislation and parental guidelines was another powerful means of rebellion. Many people were “turned on” to the hip “scene” by marijuana. (Yablonsky 242) Smoking grass soon spread into the suburbs and the rest of sheltered America. The popularization of LSD can easily be attributed to the hippies and the self-proclaimed leaders of the acid movement. Remaining legal until 1966, LSD gained great publicity from them and drew notoriety after it was criminalized. Timothy Leary’s studies were published and widely read, almost like bibles. His book The Psychedelic Experience, and a translated version of The Tibetan Book of the Dead soon became the guidebooks for passage through a successful trip. (Westhues 40-41) Through his writing, he spread the hippie motto of “Turn on, Tune in, Drop Out”. Ken Kesey’s acid tests and his adventures with the Pranksters drew further attention to the acid movement, as it came to be known. 

In The Electric Kool Aid Acid Test, an account of his adventures, he metaphorically states, “There are going to be times, when we can’t wait for somebody. Now, you’re either on the bus or off the bus. If you’re on the bus, and you get left behind, then you’ll find it again. If you’re off the bus in the first place- then it won’t make a damn. You’re either on the bus…or off the bus” (Wolfe 74). The hippies believed that LSD had the power to raise them to a higher consciousness, it helped you get “on the bus.” Hippies used acid limitlessly, tightening the bonds with each other and widening the gap between themselves and society. Americans could reluctantly tolerate marijuana usage, but after seeing the creative and frightening effects of LSD, would not accept the chemical in society. Individuality and identity are two very important ideals to the hippies.

 They feel that the establishment tries to control people through routine methods like organized work and leisure. “The idea of anything organized would instantly evoke boredom and restraint in the mind of the hippie.” (Cavan 162-163) Many of these young people devoted tremendous amounts of time to “doing their own thing”. This could have been anything, ranging from creative endeavors like painting and poetry to merely sitting on the grass meditating. Doing one’s “own thing” brought the person a unique sense of identity. This gave them a different approach to finding careers than their parents tried to teach them “If you get a job or something, you’re even more conforming to the system, and if you don’t agree with it, where do you turn? So you see you kind of invent your own lifestyle” (Mills 79).

 The dehumanizing effect of joining the American workforce was met with the hippies’ decision to exclude themselves from it, avoiding its negative effects. This placed them outside of the economy, separating them from the rest of society. Of course, they were further misunderstood and even despised for their refusal to work. Some hippies looked for solutions to the social problems plaguing the U.S. during the sixties. They staged massive demonstrations to draw attention and try to bring about change. Student activism reached a peak during the 1960s as bright, affluent college students fought against unfair legislation, abuse of human rights, racial discrimination, and U.S. involvement in Vietnam. 

These protestors were more than just hippies, they were the children of the upper middle class. The social status of these students ensured that their message was heard by the public and captured by the media. (Westby 254) Images of angry hippies burning draft cards and giving speeches to huge audiences spread across the country. During the mid 1960s, anti-war demonstrations flooded the nation’s capital. Led by the Students for a Democratic Society (SDS), some protests drew massive crowds of twenty-five thousand protestors or more. (Young 150-151) The commitment to a common was a unifying force among the hippies, surpassing any individual differences.

The protests were very important because they were nationally televised, placing the hippie at the center of the American home, in the living room. Another group of hippies thought the answer was merely to “drop out” of society completely. They chose to live together communally, generally in rural areas, and attempted to become self-sufficient. On these communes, they participated in food and clothing production, child rearing as well as devoting plenty of time to “do their own thing.” (Cavan 155) These hippies quickly learned that survival was very difficult without the aid of civilization. A commune could not function without a great deal of effort on behalf of the members. As they soon found out, organization was necessary to keep these communities running smoothly. Because most hippies came to the communes escaping the establishment, organization was not easy to impose upon them. (Westhues 194-195) The most famous hippie community was not a farm, it was the Haight-Ashbury area of San Francisco. People flocked from around the country to experience the phenomenon of merely being there, of “being in” (Perry 29-30). The brotherhood and kindness present in the community was hidden from the American public by the appearance and lifestyle of the inhabitants. 

Tour buses carried visitors through the neighborhood providing them with a superficial and confused view of the community: We are now entering the largest hippie colony in the world and the very heart and fountainhead of the hippie subculture. We are now passing through the ‘Bearded Curtain’ and will journey down Haight Street, the very nerve center of a city within a city…Marijuana, of course is a household staple here, enjoyed by the natives to stimulate their senses… Among the favorite pastimes of the hippies, besides taking drugs, are parading and demonstrating, seminars, malingering, and the ever-present preoccupation with the soul, reality, and self-expression such as strumming guitars, piping flutes and banging on bongos. (Yablonsky 200). The creation of hippie communities gave them a foundation in American society. Whether the public liked it or not, the hippies became a permanent part of our culture. 

The controversial messages of the hippies and their socially unacceptable lifestyle made them targets of very much negative publicity. They were all portrayed as drug pushers, prostitutes, and thieves by the media. (Mills 76-77) The belief that their subversive ideas could destroy society’s structure and values caused people to fear them. Following the 1960s, as many of these hippies grew older, the returned to normal society. They eventually bought into the establishment they once fought against, by getting married, moving into suburban homes and buying family cars. Some stubborn individuals never lost their hippie appearance and lifestyle. Many of these interesting individuals can still be seen in San Francisco and the East Village in New York. A large number of these hippies are even conveniently located in beautiful Ithaca. Their appearance is still the same, but now hippie gear is mass-produced for the department stores. Regardless of how their lives had changed, the impression that hippies left will last forever. 

They demonstrated the power of America’s youth as they fought to bring about change. The hippies taught people to appreciate nature and the beauty of the human body. *Most importantly, hippies broke social boundaries, setting an example that others would follow.*


Then of course we can say a few things about the state this governemtn has left us in  but if i did this post would be so long you`d skip it and  run to a smaller less hard work one to read.. 


So you see your agruement whilst colourfull to the  uneducated .. and whilst being amazingly blasting to Ric the Vic  was nothing more than  smoke and  beer  now of course i could offer you advice but i doubt you` d understand it or even take the advice as offered..  left to us in a room i`d offer you some green and papers and  show you how to calm down ..  but then  i`m a kinda  calming guy   and really nice   .. some say .. 


Love Light Peace Lofti .


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2006)

Blimey! A lot to say there!


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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 13, 2006)

Why are you giving us a history of punk and hippy?


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2006)

Dunno, but at least he makes use of paragraphs...normally such long posts have ne'er a break in the text so let's be grateful for small mercies.


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## loftiandpat (Feb 13, 2006)

Brock asked why he bought the records i thought idanswer  him and got  umm carried away ??  dang i need coffee     i hate it when i get on a soap box  sorry peeps   it must be monday   


Love Light peace


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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 13, 2006)

loftiandpat said:
			
		

> Brock asked why he bought the records i thought idanswer  him and got  umm carried away ??  dang i need coffee     i hate it when i get on a soap box  sorry peeps   it must be monday
> 
> 
> Love Light peace



Wasn't the death of hippy march in 1967?

And I know that punk died the day The Expolited formed.


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## llantwit (Feb 13, 2006)

Or alternatively, you could've just linked to the sites you nicked it all from:
Here or on this free essays site here.  
I think Brockway went a bit far with the ole vitriol on Ric the Vic, and think that it's sad that Ric doesn't feel he wants to post on here any more. I think Lofti an' Pat may have wanted to say something like that too, before they got carried away with the C&Ps.


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## thefuse (Feb 13, 2006)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> And I know that punk died the day The Expolited formed.


i hope that was a joke
well im still alive anyway and have always considered myself a punk more than anything else, 
never as a fashion statement though.

ric didnt say he was leaving did he?


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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 13, 2006)

What?! The Exploited and their like kicked punks corpse around the floor.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2006)

thefuse said:
			
		

> ric didnt say he was leaving did he?


Yup, but I have his email address and will attempt to lure him back, if only to suburban 75....


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## loftiandpat (Feb 13, 2006)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Or alternatively, you could've just linked to the sites you nicked it all from:
> Here or on this free essays site here.
> I think Brockway went a bit far with the ole vitriol on Ric the Vic, and think that it's sad that Ric doesn't feel he wants to post on here any more. I think Lofti an' Pat may have wanted to say something like that too, before they got carried away with the C&Ps.




yeah something like that  but pree caffine i get a bit umm ..  lol ooppss...


Ric said he doesnt want to return to post in here for a while Hes agentle sort and the attack on him was .. well massive..  my appologies if my c & p  was too intense ....



LLP  Lofti


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2006)

Tell him I've just sent him a nice newsy email....


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## llantwit (Feb 13, 2006)

loftiandpat said:
			
		

> yeah something like that  but pree caffine i get a bit umm ..  lol ooppss...
> Ric said he doesnt want to return to post in here for a while Hes agentle sort and the attack on him was .. well massive..  my appologies if my c & p  was too intense ....
> LLP  Lofti


  
Can empathise with the coffe thing. Talking of which, I'm off to put the kettle on.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 13, 2006)

Rik is indeed a gentle sort...I have very fond memories of him...lovely bloke. I'll never forget when he was off to his brother's wedding, dressed in home-cured rabbit skins carrying a lamb under his arm...he looked a bit like a cross between Ben Gunn and John the Baptist...even blasé 'seen it all before' Brixtonians looked somewhat taken aback....


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## thefuse (Feb 14, 2006)

loftiandpat said:
			
		

> yeah something like that  but pree caffine i get a bit umm ..  lol ooppss...
> 
> 
> Ric said he doesnt want to return to post in here for a while Hes agentle sort and the attack on him was .. well massive..  my appologies if my c & p  was too intense ....
> ...


which attack on him? is it in this thread?


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 15, 2006)

thefuse said:
			
		

> which attack?
> 
> o.k. sorry folks, maybe I did feel too sensitive about it, it is just words. Can we forget about that now and keep the thread interesting, before Mrs Magpie embarrasses me with more daft things I did the best part of  a quarter of a century ago.
> I wouldn't dare dress like that these days Mrs M, but the reaction at the time in different towns was interesting:  in Carmarthen it was looks of astonished horror (maybe John the Baptist is due to reappear just before The End of the World),  in London no-one batted an eyelid even when I went on the Underground dressed in goatskins carrying a lamb (good grief) but in Paris everyone was delighted and I had a great time.   Never again, I've even got a compuer now, though I'm not sure why.
> ...


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## *Miss Daisy* (Feb 15, 2006)

I personally think its great having a lovely self sufficient village(?), where people can live how they want to live,,,
my parents travelled for  awhile and lived in vans and squats in wales and Dorset(nice ones my mum tells me), anyway, what i'm trying to say is that, i couldnt have asked for a better childhood, even tho i was fed on nuts and berries(seriously) for a few yrs,
They had a huge network of friends all round the country, where they could drop in at any time and the same goes for then, their house was always open,, and festivals were great coz there would be a huge gathering of friends camped together, where everyone looked out for each others kids,,
the vibes were good,,life was good,,, 
its all good mannnn,,,, 

good on you Rik for living the life you want,, big repect


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

*Miss Daisy* said:
			
		

> good on you Rik for living the life you want,, big repect



Fair enough - but why can't they set up their utopia in their own country? Aren't there any fields in England they can colonize?   

The Welsh hinterlands are becoming an odd refuge for English drop-outs and "white flight" English fascists. 

I wouldn't mind if Tipi valley was peopled by say, Albanian refugees, but a bunch of English people deciding they quite fancy colonizing part of Wales seems a bit arrogant to me.


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## *Miss Daisy* (Feb 15, 2006)

are they all English?? I didn't realize, but that shouldn't matter really should it,,
people wanting to live like that in such a beautiful country, why not,, wales is big,, a commune isn't that big,,
I just think its good,, they aren't in your backyard are they,,
imo, they are no different to anyone else, they just want a better life and i dont blame them,,
I'm welsh, but live in England, in an English Council flat,, should i get back to my own country?

I dont want to argue anyway,, i just wanted to put my views across,,
please dont get annoyed  

 I dont think they are intentionally being arrogent, possibly wanting to live in peace in a beautiful country


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

*Miss Daisy* said:
			
		

> are they all English?? I didn't realize, but that shouldn't matter really should it,,
> people wanting to live like that in such a beautiful country, why not,, wales is big,, a commune isn't that big,,
> I just think its good,, they aren't in your backyard are they,,
> imo, they are no different to anyone else, they just want a better life and i dont blame them,,
> ...



Most of them are English yes. 

It's arrogant to occupy someone else's country and to impose your own cultural values.

No, they're not in my backyard. 

I didn't say they are any different to anyone else.

Everyone wants a better life - but couldn't they find theirs in the Cotswolds or the Lake District?

No, you shouldn't get back to your own country if you don't want to - you're the colonized not the colonizer - they owe you a living.

Hey, I'm not annoyed - this a forum for debate.


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## *Miss Daisy* (Feb 15, 2006)




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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 15, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Most of them are English yes.
> 
> It's arrogant to occupy someone else's country and to impose your own cultural values.
> 
> ...



Thing is though, if I went and lived there, I'd be just as much of an outsider.


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## thefuse (Feb 16, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Everyone wants a better life - but couldn't they find theirs in the Cotswolds or the Lake District?


im not an expert on land prices in the uk but i would have thought
that it was a factor in them choosing to be there

 i bought a huge farmhouse in brittany for 3000 quid in 95 because i couldnt afford to buy anything in my own country
 it became more and more obvious over the years that the bretons didnt want us there though so i left.


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## Col_Buendia (Feb 17, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> but why can't they set up their utopia in their own country?



Do you know how daft that sounds?

Have you ever read Utopia?

And in the meantime, let's rebuild Offa's Dyke and get a strip of anti-personnel mines down while we're at it.


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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 17, 2006)

Offas Dyke was to keep us out of England, another example of how we've been oppressed from stealing English pigs and goats


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## Brockway (Feb 17, 2006)

Col_Buendia said:
			
		

> Have you ever read Utopia?
> 
> And in the meantime, let's rebuild Offa's Dyke and get a strip of anti-personnel mines down while we're at it.



I'll go for whichever answer means you don't actually start telling me about Thomas More's _Utopia_.  

Not sure why you're going on about anti-personnel mines - I don't really want to kill hippies. If there's a smart bomb that can take out their record collections though....


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 17, 2006)

I've never seen a record player in a tipi, meself....


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## Brockway (Feb 17, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I've never seen a record player in a tipi, meself....



Not all hippies live in tipis.    

Talking of hippies - I'd definitely recommend _The Last of the Hippies _ by C J Stone. A very funny book which contains a big section on the hippy scene in Cardiff in the 70s. It's not really for or against them, as such, just attempts to explain the phenomenon from a personal perspective - he used to be one himself see. Stone writes for the _Big Issue_.


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 17, 2006)

He used to post here too...he may well still do, but there are now so many posts per day I may have missed him...


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## RubberBuccaneer (Feb 17, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Rik is indeed a gentle sort...I have very fond memories of him...lovely bloke. I'll never forget when he was off to his brother's wedding, dressed in home-cured rabbit skins carrying a lamb under his arm...he looked a bit like a cross between Ben Gunn and John the Baptist...even blasé 'seen it all before' Brixtonians looked somewhat taken aback....



Did he appear on TV once in a programe about pagans or earth mysteries?


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## mazin_aust (Mar 17, 2007)

Hey Ric, Bro, you seem to have stirred up a hornets nest. I am happy that Ric has been able to live a happy and fruitful life for the last 28 years, with positive results- TIPI Valley has revegetated, the local community respects,works with and benefits from their presence and you have managed to avoid Brocky. Great mate- PS the lamb mentioned previously was a wedding present for  our brother. Having moved to Australia 35 years ago and embracing an equality for all nationalities and social structures it is a bit bemusing to follow the perceived problem of people born out side Wales living in Wales, especially such a low impact of 100 people in a Valley that was useless for agriculture. Good on you and your fellow Valley community.
Cheers Peter


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## northernhord (Mar 17, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> What is it with hippies and Wales? We're like a poor man's India to them. How come Tipi Valley is in Wales and not say... the Lake District?



Its got fuck to do with hippies, when I used to live in vehicles and Benders we came from listening to Dub reggae, punk and metal, I was on the road with 4 workin class punks from Manchester.
As far as English folks exotification of Wales that's shite too, we never used to get that much hassle in Wales back in the day and also its a lovely place


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## Dandred (Mar 17, 2007)

I would love to give lot's of good vibes to the Tipi Valley people....





But, sadly I've met loads of them. 

At free festivals and at free parties.........


Very arrogant, self obsessed, wankers......

I've spent about 3-4 years in north and mid Wales at parties, (2 of the last years I was there putting on the parties) whenever the TP people turn up it's time to go home........ 

They treat the local people like scum......


I love to dance while the sun is coming up, but to have for some wanker telling me how good they are just because they live in a tent and have enough money to do that........................

TeePee people = arrogant wankers


Machynlleth is a good point, loads of rich hippies buying the land locals can't afford. 

CAT is a good example http://www.cat.org.uk/index.tmpl?refer=index&init=1

How many are from Wales 

Born and raised in wales myself.............wish I had loads of rich friends to put the money together to buy land from the locals and then preach hippy crap like the CAT people do......


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## northernhord (Mar 17, 2007)

^ I can appreciate the fact that there is some elitism goin on within the Travelling community, this is something I hated when I was on the road and it part and parcel of why I jacked it in.
But I still think that these permanent sites are a good thing.

English people buying up Wales is a big problem but that's down to the way things are with property in the UK with your second homers and downsizers


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## Dandred (Mar 17, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> ^ I can appreciate the fact that there is some elitism goin on within the Travelling community.



This is not the "Traveling community" these are people from rich London/other big city middle class families, who have bought land from the local people and are sneering  at the local people for not living up the their own ideals.




			
				northernhoard said:
			
		

> this is something I hated when I was on the road and it part and parcel of why I jacked it in.



I would hate that too.



			
				northernhoard said:
			
		

> But I still think that these permanent sites are a good thing.



So do I, but the same for everywhere in the UK, the local government shouldn't have to pay the bill when so few people live there.





			
				northernhoard said:
			
		

> English people buying up Wales is a big problem but that's down to the way things are with property in the UK with your second homers and downsizers



I think that any second homes should have 400% tax........


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## northernhord (Mar 17, 2007)

Dandred said:
			
		

> This is not the "Traveling community" these are people from rich London/other big city middle class families, who have bought land from the local people and are sneering  at the local people for not living up the their own ideals.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





I used to know a few peeps who lived in the valley years ago and they werent rich types but I can quite easily imagine the sons and daughter of lords and ladies bein up there and for that I am on the side of Welsh people, I also completely agree with you about a 400% on second homes, perhaps this could go someway towards recompensing local people for putting with this sort of thing.


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## Dandred (Mar 17, 2007)

Look at Aberdyfi, and look at amount of money it cost to own a house there.........

That's about 7 miles from where the CAT is........and the same from my old house.....



I was a really happy late teen dredlock hippy until I met the Tipi wankers and their spwan.....

I went to one party and was asked in a posh accent "Oh you work do you"?

Wankers, they think they are doing everything for the world in their own heads but forget everyone around them....

A few friends of mine live in very remote farms (they are son's and daughters of farmers) the people from the CTA who came to visit the farm were so angry that my firend's parents burnt coal!!!!!!!  What were that supposed to do? No gas there, no money for solar panels..... but the CAT wankers left feeling smug with their noses up each others areses.......


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## northernhord (Mar 17, 2007)

^ I have many issues with Middle class Hippies and their superior ethical smuggness posturing.
my old fellas family come from Wales and have expereinced similar to what you mention above.

My last job which I walked out of before Christmas was workin with gypsies (traditional) and New Age Travellers and the Northern New Age travellers I worked with were less airy fairy then many of the travellers i experienced years ago and there wasnt a sign of the kind of hgh brow judgementalism that you tend to get from Middle Class Southern Travellers.


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## Dandred (Mar 17, 2007)

northernhoard said:
			
		

> ^ I have many issues with Middle class Hippies and their superior ethical smuggness posturing.
> my old fellas family come from Wales and have expereinced similar to what you mention above.
> 
> My last job which I walked out of before Christmas was workin with gypsies (traditional) and New Age Travellers and the Northern New Age travellers I worked with were less airy fairy then many of the travellers i experienced years ago and there wasnt a sign of the kind of hgh brow judgementalism that you tend to get from Middle Class Southern Travellers.


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## Karac (Mar 17, 2007)

Dandred said:
			
		

> I would love to give lot's of good vibes to the Tipi Valley people....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Theres a load of that going on-apparently the CAT only employs 1 Welsh person out of 60 employees -and you get self-righteous middle-class dropouts lecturing the locals on how to manage the land.
It all started with that arrogant toss rag John Seymour


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## Portia (Mar 20, 2007)

Dandred said:
			
		

> Look at Aberdyfi, and look at amount of money it cost to own a house there.........
> 
> That's about 7 miles from where the CAT is........and the same from my old house.....
> 
> ...



yep some of them are wankers and the kids can be proper little shits- as i may have mentioned a couple of times... 
but most of the valley lot are sound as. up the top people have the same sort of attitude they have in shameless (probably why i like that programme so much) which is sort of fuck everyone else, stick by your mates... completely amoral. i find it kindof refreshing because it's so different from what i grew up with. not that i think it's good to be like that- but there's absolutely no point in aruging with them about it. plus they're good people to have as friends.

down the bottom people are more your typical fluffy hippies. they are nice people too though a few may be totally up themselves. they mean well though. i know what you mean about it all being totally hypocritical wank, lots of them have a place in town and a place in beneficio as well... what sort of hippy has 3 homes ffs? but they're still my mates.


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## Dandred (Mar 21, 2007)

Portia said:
			
		

> *yep some of them are wankers and the kids can be proper little shits-* as i may have mentioned a couple of times...
> but most of the valley lot are sound as. up the top people have the same sort of attitude they have in shameless (probably why i like that programme so much) which is sort of fuck everyone else, stick by your mates... completely amoral. i find it kindof refreshing because it's so different from what i grew up with. not that i think it's good to be like that- but there's absolutely no point in aruging with them about it. plus they're good people to have as friends.
> 
> down the bottom people are more your typical fluffy hippies. they are nice people too though a few may be totally up themselves. they mean well though. i know what you mean about it all being totally hypocritical wank, lots of them have a place in town and a place in beneficio as well... what sort of hippy has 3 homes ffs? but *they're still my mates*.



Well they were never my mates, just people I met in my local area......

*I will always remember their attitudes towards the local Welsh people.*


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## annajolene (Nov 12, 2007)

I Was Born In Tp Vally,along With 3 Sisters


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## co-op (Nov 12, 2007)

annajolene said:
			
		

> I Was Born In Tp Vally,along With 3 Sisters



Hi - I'd be interested to hear about what it was like from your p.o.v.


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## nellyphant (Dec 11, 2007)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Yeah aren't they just a load of Sais dropouts who don't want to mix with the locals? It's a welsh speaking area but I bet none of em speak a word of Cymraeg...twt twt



I think the point here isn't what language they speak but I do agree with Red Star that they should mingle with the local community in some form or other whether they choose to lead an 'alternative' or nomadic type lifestyle. If they choose to ring-fence themselves it could be detrimental in the long run.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

Yes Annajolene. Can we see your experience in Tipi Valley...your story of there?


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

She's not online. It's nearly a year since she posted.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*?*

*Are the differences between the Welsh Original Peoples and the Tipi People irreconcilable? Can they learn to appreciate each other?

What might they have in common. Love of the Earth? Tribal Instincts?

What do the Tipi People think that the Welsh are failing to do on their own land...besides burning coal?

Is the mentioned "arrogance" a natural English trait that is coming through the "Hippy" veneer of the new comers?

Are the woodlands depleted?

Is solar power feasible in that misty land?

Sincerely wondering, since i might be of Welsh heritage and Spiritual kindred to some of the Rainbow Peoples of Earth. Seeking enlightenment in these matters. This string has been fascinating so far.

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

Oh dear. Green ink. This does not bode well.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Thank You Mrs. Magpie*

*I'm sorry she didn't leave her story before she left.

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Ooops?*

*Mrs Magpie? Have I erred in some way. Is green not a good color for the Welsh or Tipi People?

Respectfully,  DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

It has a long, long history....
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_ink


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 30, 2008)

DAN 1 said:


> *Mrs Magpie? Have I erred in some way. Is green not a good color for the Welsh or Tipi People?
> 
> Respectfully,  DAN 1*



posting like you are busy brainstorming some sort of sociology essay probably isnt a good idea whichever colour you post in....
 respectfully... LMHF


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

Ground Elder said:


> Tally Valley hasn't got planning permission as a whole, Brig Oubridge has got it for 3 benders/tipis and a wagon. There's still another 100 or so people there without it.
> 
> Ground Elder chants the following mantra: "Dub's a hippy, Dub's a hippy"



*Uh...whuts uh "bender"?

DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

Google is your friend...handy little tool, google.
www.bbc.co.uk/kent/voices/horse_drawn.shtml


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Thanks Mrs. Magpie and LilMissHissyFit*

*I went and read the Wikepedia article. Fascinating stuff. Didn't know all that about myself.

Because of assumptions on your respective parts I seem to be off to a bad start here. 

But, I do see how one could imagine such things about me. Afterall, I do write a lot.

But, I really started here hoping I could learn more about Tipi Valley and its relationship to the Welsh. I am succeeding. Your responses seem to be "Old Tribal" in the sense that you do not welcome this stranger with common courtesy, but seem suspicious somehow of my entry into this string. I'm sorry if I frighten you, but I came in Peace and Friendship and do not wish you any harm. I could assume from this that you two are Welsh, but, I really am not sure. Are you?

At anyrate, you both are my very first contacts here and I appreciate your taking the time to respond to me. 

I do hope that there may be other responses to my questions...maybe even some of them a little more positive in nature.

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

Read the BBC article, the wiki article was helpful advice.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

btw, I'm not Welsh (apart from a great-great granny somewhere) and I don't live in Wales. I am however one of the moderators on this site. I saw you were hoping for a reply from someone who posted once a long time ago and never came back and was trying to save you wasted anticipation of a reply.

Seriously, ditch the green ink, it won't win you friends and you may influence people in an way that's unhelpful to your research.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Thank You Mrs Magpie*

*You are right. I will do my own research next time. Thank you for taking the time and making the effort to respond again. I think you are great...I now understand what a "bender" is.

Sort of like the "wickiups" in this part of the world. I will be building something similar soon.

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

What part of the world are you in?


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Yes mam*

*I am here to possibly make friends not enemies. I will take your sincere advice and ditch the green ink. Though it does feel like I am losing a part of what i am. Oh well. It is only here and I might have much to gain by complying.

Respectfully,  DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

Are you in the US or Canada?


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

I do know that a medicine man called Lame Deer visited the valley in Wales. I don't know, but he was Sioux, I think.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

This man I think....
www.ilkahartmann.com/members/jbrave/phototext.nsf/topiclu/E5096D62FDD7D14D88256D8D000119C8


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

*Ansering Mrs Magpie*

*I am in California Mrs Magpie. The "wickiups" I mentioned are built by the "Miwuk People" here. (As historic display). They are Original Americans. They cover their structures with pieces of bark. 

However, though they use poles like the Benders, they arrange them in a radial fashion and not in rows. 

Though the Miwuks are proud of their ancient heritage they have become strong in the "modern world" through the construction and operation of a couple of casinos. They have really set a good example of being beneficial to the communities around them through contributions.

Sorry. California...foothills of the Sierra Nevadas...Sonora.

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## DAN 1 (Oct 30, 2008)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I do know that a medicine man called Lame Deer visited the valley in Wales. I don't know, but he was Sioux, I think.



*He sure looks Sioux. Definately an Original People of Turtle Island Man.

I wonder what attracted him to Tipi Valley? You know...how did he find out? Did someone there invite him? Or was he guided there by Spirit.

And why did he go?

I'll see if I can find him online and get him to tell me about his experience in Tipi Valley, Wales.

Respectfully,  DAN 1*


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

I've heard of wickiups, I think that according to the general environment and weather conditions the covering can change. They're the same thing as a wigwam aren't they?

Actually, I'm not sure that link I posted of the medicine man is right. Looks a bit too young. Maybe his father visited. I used to live in the same house as a family who afterwards moved to the Valley and have been there for 30 years or more.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

He went because of a prophesy about the children of white men living in tipis.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 30, 2008)

My research tells me that the pic is of the same man....sadly, my research also tells me he died in 2001.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 31, 2008)

*Too Late To Talk To Lame Deer*

*I had hoped to ask him some things. I am sorry i am too late to do so. 

I did email the photographer and might be able to learn more from her. Still waiting for the reply.

But what you told me is good wood for my fire. To check out a prophecy indicates that he and maybe his people took the Tipi Folks in Wales seriously.

Maybe I can find out from the Sioux what became of Lame Deers mission.

So, Mrs Magpie? Are the inhabitants of the two "benders" Roma or "Gypsy"? And of the wagon? The term "Travellers" means Roma or Gypsy?

Respectfully,  DAN 1*


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## free spirit (Oct 31, 2008)

Traveller in the UK covers the range from Roma / gypsy to 'new age' traveller ie. people who took up the travelling lifestyle over the last few decades but don't come from travelling family backgrounds... also a fair few travellers with Irish roots who may or may not come from previous generations of Irish travellers.

as a quick rough overview.


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## DAN 1 (Oct 31, 2008)

*Thanks For The Overview Free Spirit*

* Good Morning to yuh.

I am grateful to you sir. What you have shared with me helps me to understand.

So, let me see if I have this right in my mind?

A long time ago the Roma came to Albion and continued their lifestyle. (Do you know when?)

Then some of the Celtic Irish decided to adopt the Roma lifestyle. (When did they do this?)  ((And did they copy Roma that had gone to Ireland or did the Irish come to England or Wales and take up the Roma lifestyle?)) (((or both?))) 

Did the decoration of the wagons and benders change with the Irish influence?
Did the Irish Travellers travel with the Roma Clans, or strictly on their own?
Then a few of the Flower Children in the late 60's or 70's took up this Traveller lifestyle? 
Did they also adopt the Roma style wagons? Did the decorations change even more?
All of this is really fascinating in my mind. Because I am very interested in Nomadic Lifestyles.

One last question in this post. Have any Welsh taken up the Roma Lifestyle?

Respectfully,   DAN 1*


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## Ground Elder (Oct 31, 2008)

> A long time ago the Roma came to Albion and continued their lifestyle. (Do you know when?)


*Timeline*




> Then some of the Celtic Irish decided to adopt the Roma lifestyle. (When did they do this?)  ((And did they copy Roma that had gone to Ireland or did the Irish come to England or Wales and take up the Roma lifestyle?)) (((or both?)))


 Irish Traveller history (pdf)
 



> Did the decoration of the wagons and benders change with the Irish influence?


 Not as far as I know. Benders weren't decorated.



> Did the Irish Travellers travel with the Roma Clans, or strictly on their own?


There was and still is some cross over, but Irish Travellers and Romanies are two distinct cultures. Irish and Romanies don't usually travel together, but do sometimes live side by side on local authority run sites. 



> Then a few of the Flower Children in the late 60's or 70's took up this Traveller lifestyle? Did they also adopt the Roma style wagons? Did the decorations change even more?


Most new Travellers used converted vans, lorries and buses and, more recently, caravans. There are a small number of horsedrawn new Travellers.

Another useful timeline here


 It's much less stressful on the retina in black and white


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## DAN 1 (Nov 1, 2008)

*Thanks Ground Elder*

*I'll check out these urls and learn what I can from them. It is kind of you to take the time and energy to supply them here.

I wont ask anymore questions until I have exhausted these resources.

But, I would love to see some photos of "New Traveler Horse Drawn Wagons"

Respectfully,  DAN 1*


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## Ground Elder (Nov 2, 2008)

Some here and here


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## ymu (Nov 2, 2008)

Better, but does it still have to be in bold?


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## DAN 1 (Nov 2, 2008)

Thanks again Ground Elder. I'll take a look at these new urls.

My goodness YMU. This discussion group does seem to be sensitive to writing variation. What's that all about? How did this exclusive standard get established anyway?

Respectfully,   DAN 1


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## ymu (Nov 2, 2008)

Loads better, thanks.

(It's about readability and not making people's eyes hurt.)


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## uncrunk (Jul 16, 2011)

I live in tipi valley which is why I am reading this thread, and I feel for Rik trying to communicate with some people on here.

Since she is a moderator of this forum, I would ask Mrs Magpie why she feels it necessary to chastise someone about their chosen font while allowing some others to spout racist and intolerant rants on here about people they (probably) don't know and places they (probably) have never been? I joined this forum specifically to make this response and I had to agree not to be, among other things, racist or offensive, so why has this thread been allowed to develop like this?

Whatever you say about CAT people, it's an educational establishment first and foremost, and quite well respected. They won't employ people based on ethnicity whether they're local or not!

Rik- noticed you've not been on here for ages, but I think the name "urban" 75 says it all, don't you? I don't want to just perpetuate the us and them mentality but all I can see is the attitude of people used to not trusting their neighbours or looking for any old reason to take issue with other people's ways of life. 

Has anyone heard of "divide and rule"?


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## spanglechick (Jul 16, 2011)

uncrunk said:


> I live in tipi valley which is why I am reading this thread, and I feel for Rik trying to communicate with some people on here.
> 
> Since she is a moderator of this forum, I would ask Mrs Magpie why she feels it necessary to chastise someone about their chosen font while allowing some others to spout racist and intolerant rants on here about people they (probably) don't know and places they (probably) have never been? I joined this forum specifically to make this response and I had to agree not to be, among other things, racist or offensive, so why has this thread been allowed to develop like this?
> 
> ...


 
it's not the moderators' job to tell people their opinions are wrong. Posters take each other to task on that account... otherwise things would conform to the opinions and agendas of a handful of people - very repressive.

but we do succumb to some 'oppressive' norms and consensuses regarding minor, administrative matters. sticking to the default font option is one of those - because it just makes it easier to read.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2011)

spanglechick said:


> sticking to the default font option is one of those - because it just makes it easier to read.


This. I'm partially sighted (and I'm not the only one) and bolded text in other colours is hard to read for many visually impaired people, also for synesthetes. As for the urban bit, the site was started by editor when he moved to Brixton because when he wanted to meet like-minded people in the area when he moved here but over the years it just grew and grew.


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## editor (Jul 16, 2011)

uncrunk said:


> Rik- noticed you've not been on here for ages, but I think the name "urban" 75 says it all, don't you?


For the record, I made the name up and used it because I liked it. It's got nothing to do with 'urban.'

It might as well been Dandelion75. Or Cheesy75.


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## Clint Iguana (Jul 16, 2011)

editor said:


> For the record, I made the name up and used it because I liked it. It's got nothing to do with 'urban.'
> 
> It might as well been Dandelion75. Or Cheesy75.



so what's significant about 75 then?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 16, 2011)

There are threads about that. There've been years of speculation.


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## fogbat (Jul 17, 2011)

It was the Ed's age when he started the site, I believe.


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## quimcunx (Jul 17, 2011)

I think changing the name to Cheesy75 would be a fitting tribute to the poster.


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## trampie (Jul 20, 2011)

Claiming land as their own aye, does anybody really own any land, in Mother Earth's eyes or God's eyes, does anybody have the right to call a patch of land theirs, what about the rabbits, badgers, birds ect ?


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## trampie (Jul 20, 2011)

Greedy capitalists.


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## lud (Dec 12, 2011)

trampie said:


> Greedy capitalists.


they are the ones buying old farmsteads and converting them not living lightly on the land in atipi


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## METH LAB (Dec 13, 2011)

whats all this about? my missis spent a night up the vally the other week when i had the house to meself and decided to make the most of it by havaing a lil 48 hour amphetamine sesh/lapse.

she said its great in the night if no cloud coz its litterally just the stars for night light like..i think she set off a few of them floating lantern thingys lol. Her and a mate of her's stayed in the visitors tent..all in all she liked it but the experiance was abit rough on her back..she in alot of pain and her mate did most the work for that reason but even so she tried to help best as pos but was deffinataly glad to come home..but did enjoy the experiance. Said everyone was freindly.

peace


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## ddraig (Dec 13, 2011)

what do you mean what is it about? 
what do you think it is about?
just people trying to live differently and have less impact on the earth etc
call em hippies if you like
you kow they've been there a long long time?

hope they were safe lanterns with no evil wires to kill cattle with or start fires!


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## METH LAB (Dec 16, 2011)

i just meant i havant read 5 pages coz not really botherd..but yea its nice apparantly.

they been there fuckin ages its not that far from me...still hard to find though, lots of lanes and that.

they were indeed safe lanters she also reckons she saw the milky way for the first time in her life..

peace


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## ddraig (Dec 16, 2011)

cool


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## METH LAB (Dec 16, 2011)

editor said:


> For the record, I made the name up and used it because I liked it. It's got nothing to do with 'urban.'
> 
> It might as well been Dandelion75. Or Cheesy75.



it should be MethLab75  (i kidding)

Dandelion sounds nice


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## Rik the Vic (Feb 19, 2012)

Just to let you know I'm alive and well and still living in a tipi in Tipi Valley. Hey Mrs Magpie, did you see that bit in New Scientist last week mentioning Mr Magpie? You know, I hear on the radio of drought in the east and south of England, a great shortage of rain. It's been the opposite here, since the fine spring weather of 2011, it's been a prolonged wet period from then til now, so some of the paths are muddier than they have been for 30 years, so anyone visiting - bring wellies!


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## editor (Feb 19, 2012)

How's life at Tipi Valley treating you, Rik? Give us some updates!


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## William of Walworth (Feb 19, 2012)

Rik the Vic said:


> Just to let you know I'm alive and well and still living in a tipi in Tipi Valley. Hey Mrs Magpie, did you see that bit in New Scientist last week mentioning Mr Magpie? You know, I hear on the radio of drought in the east and south of England, a great shortage of rain. It's been the opposite here, since the fine spring weather of 2011, *it's been a prolonged wet period from then til now, so some of the paths are muddier than they have been for 30 years*, so anyone visiting - bring wellies!


 
We visited back in a dryer time -- Easter 2010 I think?? 

Will bear your current mud warning in mind for our next visit Ric! 
Hope all is well up there generally


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