# shooting outside macdonalds



## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

traffics all screwed up in case anybodys trying to get home


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## Pieface (Sep 28, 2006)

Fucking hell.  Could it be any busier round there?


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## Pieface (Sep 28, 2006)

I mean that as in a busy place to shoot somebody, not as in gosh the traffic's fucked up.


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## trashpony (Sep 28, 2006)

PieEye said:
			
		

> I mean that as in a busy place to shoot somebody, not as in gosh the traffic's fucked up.



Yeh right. You're unbelievably callous - we all know


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

currently the 2, 3, 37, 355 etc are all going up brixton hill. so avoid the busses. 

no busses are going down. 

i hear it may have been a kid that shot someone.


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## Skim (Sep 28, 2006)

Bloody hell


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## gaijingirl (Sep 28, 2006)

oh shit.  Shit for what's happened and shit 'cos I was about to get on the no.2 bus to Stockwell and I'm running incredibly late!

Brixton doesn't really need this.

WTF are these kids doing with guns...

makes me so....


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## Skim (Sep 28, 2006)

Is anyone injured?


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## walkssoftly (Sep 28, 2006)

So, was that the reason for the helecopter I saw desending over the rooftops then?


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

i belive both police and hems choppers were there. which would imply yes someone was injured. 

i've texted a few people at work but no reply yet


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## aurora green (Sep 28, 2006)




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## trashpony (Sep 28, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> i belive both police and hems choppers were there. which would imply yes someone was injured.
> 
> i've texted a few people at work but no reply yet





What's a hems chopper?


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## calno4 (Sep 28, 2006)

Helicopter Emergency Medical Service


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

Helicopter Emergency Medical Service - the ambulance sevice's helicopter that lands on the roof of the royal london. its bright red and sponsored by virgin.

carries a paramedic, doctor and pilot and can get anywhere within the M25 in 12 minutes.


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## RushcroftRoader (Sep 28, 2006)

Shootings coming thick and fast at the moment. Hope this is not the start of something.


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## trashpony (Sep 28, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> Helicopter Emergency Medical Service - the ambulance sevice's helicopter that lands on the roof of the royal london. its bright red and sponsored by virgin.



That's the one that lands in Ruskin Park by my sister's house. I always worry because there's usually loads of kids running round excitedly when it comes down - I'm scared they'll get blown away or squashed or something


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## Giles (Sep 28, 2006)

What was it over this time, I wonder? 

£100 worth of nasty drugs, or maybe one of them looked at the other one in a funny way? Definitely worth killing someone over either way! 

Pathetic.

Giles..


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## Skim (Sep 28, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> That's the one that lands in Ruskin Park by my sister's house. I always worry because there's usually loads of kids running round excitedly when it comes down - I'm scared they'll get blown away or squashed or something




I thought the whole area was a constant hot crime scene when I first moved here, before I clocked it was an air ambulance


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## magneze (Sep 28, 2006)

Ah that explains it - just had to walk home as the buses are diverted. The Police are stopping any traffic going down Acre Lane towards Brixton, presumably to stop complete gridlock. Everything's being directed down Kings Avenue instead...


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## trashpony (Sep 28, 2006)

Skim said:
			
		

> I thought the whole area was a constant hot crime scene when I first moved here, before I clocked it was an air ambulance





I'm sure I'd have thought the same thing only you can actually see it land from the upstairs windows at my sister's place


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

just got a txt simply saying 'shooting' which prolly means they've been a bit busy with it.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2006)

By Christ I'm getting bored with these pathetic cunts and their fucking guns.

Still another new yellow 'shooting incident' board will match the two others further along Coldharbour Lane.


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## Dubversion (Sep 28, 2006)

Magneze said:
			
		

> Ah that explains it - just had to walk home as the buses are diverted. The Police are stopping any traffic going down Acre Lane towards Brixton, presumably to stop complete gridlock. Everything's being directed down Kings Avenue instead...




innit 

just took me 45 minutes to get a cab from Kennington to Streatham Hill.


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## Agent Sparrow (Sep 28, 2006)

OMG, got home about half an hour ago and wondered why that part was all taped off.


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## gabi (Sep 28, 2006)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> innit
> 
> just took me 45 minutes to get a cab from Kennington to Streatham Hill.



U poor thing..callous doesn't begin to describe that


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## richtea (Sep 28, 2006)

How inconvenient for everyone!  

I hope the shooting victim is OK


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## Dubversion (Sep 28, 2006)

gabi said:
			
		

> U poor thing..callous doesn't begin to describe that




oh fuck off, i wasn't equating my inconvenience with someone being fucking shot, i was agreeing with the degree of disruption.

sanctimonious bitch


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## Agent Sparrow (Sep 28, 2006)

Um, before this thread descends into bunfights I'm sure it's possible for people to be shocked and saddenned by the shooting and also to comment on the disruption to the area. It's not like anyone has said the shooting was inconsiderate in re: to transport, unlike some responses I've heard on the tube when some poor bugger has ended up under a train.


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## Giles (Sep 28, 2006)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> Um, before this thread descends into bunfights I'm sure it's possible for people to be shocked and saddenned by the shooting and also to comment on the disruption to the area. It's not like anyone has said the shooting was inconsiderate in re: to transport, unlike some responses I've heard on the tube when some poor bugger has ended up under a train.



I think it is very selfish for people to throw themselves under trains at peak commuting times. It's all very well for them, they're dead in a few seconds, but what about everyone else? Not to mention the poor driver.

Giles..


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## Dubversion (Sep 28, 2006)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> Um, before this thread descends into bunfights I'm sure it's possible for people to be shocked and saddenned by the shooting and also to comment on the disruption to the area. It's not like anyone has said the shooting was inconsiderate in re: to transport, unlike some responses I've heard on the tube when some poor bugger has ended up under a train.




quite. i don't care about the length of the journey, it's just a good barometer of quite how much disruption has been caused. Takes a particularly sneering mentality to assume otherwise.


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## editor (Sep 28, 2006)

We'll have the inevitable 'revenge shootings' to look forward to now too...


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> It's all very well for them, they're dead in a few seconds, but what about everyone else?



actually many survive much longer than a few seconds and have full realisation that a tube is on top of their mangled body. many dont die


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## netbob (Sep 28, 2006)

its all getting a bit mental round here isnt it - the worry is starts becoming more common place, more people carry guns, more shootings, all very sad.


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## magneze (Sep 28, 2006)

It's all very worrying. What with the double shooting at the Fridge on Monday what's next?


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## milesy (Sep 28, 2006)

the school down the end of our road had to be shut early on police advice last friday, suppsoedly some shooting was planned or something, along with another in peckham, and there's rumours going round the teenager's school that their school is mixed up in it (but you know what kids can be like for rumours, it's still worrying though)

i managed to avoid brixton - usually get the 37 but got a tip off from the missus and got the 345 round that way. could see the blue lights in the distance as i went over to gresham road. hope whoever got shot isn't too badly hurt. and hope they get the fucker who did it


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## Agent Sparrow (Sep 28, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> I think it is very selfish for people to throw themselves under trains at peak commuting times. It's all very well for them, they're dead in a few seconds, but what about everyone else? Not to mention the poor driver.
> 
> Giles..


1) not all people who end up under trains were committing suicide
2) the whole debate about suicide and selfishness is quite involved, and tbh when someone is so desperate they are driven to take their own life I'm not sure if we can judge them by the same standards we'd use to describe other actions of selfishness. If we would then loved ones are pretty high up there as people justified in feeling angry, and yes, I concede the driver of the train. If commuters get caught up in the "they're so inconsiderate" debate for having their journey delayed by half an hour then frankly they can go fuck themselves IMO.


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## walkssoftly (Sep 28, 2006)

Just reported on LBC radio, 18 year old boy was shot inside McDs, taken to hospital, unknown if he's survived.....


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## TonkaToy (Sep 28, 2006)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> 1) not all people who end up under trains were committing suicide
> 2) the whole debate about suicide and selfishness is quite involved, and tbh when someone is so desperate they are driven to take their own life I'm not sure if we can judge them by the same standards we'd use to describe other actions of selfishness. If we would then loved ones are pretty high up there as people justified in feeling angry, and yes, I concede the driver of the train. If commuters get caught up in the "they're so inconsiderate" debate for having their journey delayed by half an hour then frankly they can go fuck themselves IMO.



In Japan the mess is cleared up within minutes.


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## netbob (Sep 28, 2006)

Just left the pub and the last cop car had gone. Really crap if its just a kid.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 28, 2006)

Just seen this, dreadful.  

I hope the lad survives and the twat with the gun gets caught.

And that no-one even dreams of trying to argue that it would have been less likely to happen if more people had the 'right to bear arms' in 'self defence'


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## magneze (Sep 28, 2006)

It's up on the BBC now. 2 people shot: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5390652.stm


> "The venue was very busy at the time of the shooting and those present - including families with young children - were shocked and terrified by this violent attack.
> 
> "We have only a brief description of the gunman at present - he was black and approximately 6ft 1in tall - but if anyone saw the incident or the suspect making off, we need to hear from you."
> 
> Police said the suspect ran down nearby Rushcroft Road and into Saltoun Road, heading towards Railton Road.


Must have been terrifying for the families.


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## dogmatique (Sep 28, 2006)

And how petty an argument it must have been.  Two seventeen year olds?  Geez. Dem must have shown a lack of respeck, innit.


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

i would be most suprised if McD didnt have fully working CCTV


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## phildwyer (Sep 28, 2006)

That McDonalds sells more gear than burgers.


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## zuszsa (Sep 28, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> i would be most suprised if McD didnt have fully working CCTV




Not to mention Crispy's webcam.

There's been a funny 'vibe' around Brixton for a couple of weeks now.  For the first time in my years of living here I've felt nervous and really hyper aware of whats happening about me.  I had thought I'd finally reached middle age, but maybe not.

Boo to guns and 'respect'


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

yeah since we decided to move i've been really conscious about the vibe in brixton being weird. i thought i'd see everything great about brixton but actually its pissing me off and i cant wait for a break. 

which is a shame as i've lived here for over 20 years and grown up here.


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

zuszsa said:
			
		

> Not to mention Crispy's webcam.



in fact from MD to to windrush sq is probably on CCTV.


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## RaverDrew (Sep 28, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That McDonalds sells more gear than burgers.



not true

not even near the truth

shooting up in the toilets, yes.

random nutters poncing a quid, yes.

dealing, little or nothing, the place is too hot.


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> not true
> 
> not even near the truth
> 
> ...



this is what the ignore button is for


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## wiskey (Sep 28, 2006)

btw in my first post i wasnt being off by just putting it was disrupting traffic - its just i had absolutely no other details and with stuff like this speculation is futile (the truth is normally more chillling)


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## trashpony (Sep 28, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> this is what the ignore button is for



I've said this before but I'll say it again - you are wise beyond your years


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## Blagsta (Sep 28, 2006)

Is there anyone left who _doesn't_ have dwyer on ignore?


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## Loki (Sep 28, 2006)

Just walked by there on my way back.

The McDonalds side is still cordoned off. I stood chatting to a woman PC, apparantly it was a double shooting inside McD's, when the unbelievable happened.

A bloke in a suit in his 40s herein after labelled Mr Fuckwit approached the PC.

Mr Fuckwit: I say, is it _really_ necessary to cordon off the whole road? It's an awful nuisance!
PC: I'm afraid with this type of incident it is, sir.
Mr Fuckwit: But that side of the road isn't cordoned off!
PC: That is because the double-shooting happened in McDonalds, sir.
Mr Fuckwit: Well, it's very inconvenient!

I said, listen mate if god forbid you get shot we won't bother doing anything, alright with you? As he walked off muttering.

The PC said my sentiments exactly, sir  I think I pulled.


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## kidtripod (Sep 28, 2006)

It's odd some of you have mentioned a strange vibe to the place, as a few weeks ago an old colleague of mine that had lived here for 10 years moved out of the area after an unfortunate incident, the nature of which I didn't quite get, but it clearly upset him a lot.

I'm certainly feeling that the life is being sucked out of the main town area now. Things seem to shut down and have nothing open in their place. I hope it's just a phase.


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## JHE (Sep 28, 2006)

What the fuck was this one all about?  _'You calling my burger a batty bwoy?'_


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## Treebeard (Sep 28, 2006)

kidtripod said:
			
		

> It's odd some of you have mentioned a strange vibe to the place, as a few weeks ago an old colleague of mine that had lived here for 10 years moved out of the area after an unfortunate incident, the nature of which I didn't quite get, but it clearly upset him a lot.
> 
> I'm certainly feeling that the life is being sucked out of the main town area now. Things seem to shut down and have nothing open in their place. I hope it's just a phase.



Sorry - I don't want you to get defensive here, but what places have closed down and not reopened as something else? It's just that everywhere I look, from the renovations at Loughborough Junction, to the buildings opposite the Moorlands, to the tube exterior, to new restaurants and bars on Railton, I see only investment and an improving outlook. This is a glitch, and the two incidents   (Fridge on Monday and McD's) are completely unrelated, the former being linked to triad gangs. I'm not saying any of this is welcome or that it doesn't worry me cus it does, but they're will be ups and downs on the way to a hopefully better Brixton.


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## Wednesdayite (Sep 28, 2006)

*Feeling Pessimistic*

The amount of shouting, arguments, screaming etc I hear from my bedroom window (Tunstall Rd backing onto Brighton Terrace) has got much worse over the last year. We do seem to be approaching a spike in activity, I agree that the weird vibe is back. It almost feels like when I lived up North Brixton (north of the then Bar Lorca) about three years ago. They never even cleaned Kevon Forsythe's blood up properly from inside the doorway of my local off licence. 

For a while, I was scared to go out my front door. I used to wake up in the morning occasionally to hear the absolute silence of Brixton Road having been cordoned off. 

I have a feeling it will be a bad winter. 

Firing in rush-hour McD's? There must be one seriously unhinged bastard out there.


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## Treebeard (Sep 29, 2006)

...or another kid into some pish rapper who glamourises it.


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## brixtonvilla (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That McDonalds sells more gear than burgers.



Got some evidence for that, have y...

*re-reads poster's username*

*shuts up*


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## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2006)

Not sure if this has been posted up before?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5390652.stm

I have to say I haven't noticed this bad vibe in Brixton myself.   Obviously I'm aware of the latest spate of shootings, but to my mind it hasn't really affected the vibe on the high road.

Although to be fair, it's not like I'm down there every day.  I go down maybe 4x a week and cycle straight through the other days.

I think we should all remain positive about Brixton though.  To my mind a lot of negative feelings can be self fulfilling.  I love it here and I think, like anywhere else, it has it's ups and downs.


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## editor (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> That McDonalds sells more gear than burgers.


Your habit of posting up trolling bollocks in the Brixton forum really has gone beyond joke, especially when the subject matter is so serious.

Anyway, back on topic:



			
				BBC said:
			
		

> Two teenagers have been shot in front of families with young children in a McDonald's restaurant.


I *really* hope the culprit(s) gets caught in double quick time because the cunt clearly has no respect for the people of Brixton.


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## wiskey (Sep 29, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Not sure if this has been posted up before?
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5390652.stm
> 
> ...




actually i was thinking about it overnight and i suspect my feelings recently have something to do with the huge numbers of opposing school kids facing up every day at the bus stops and shrieking endlessly about nothing 

i'm sure once the new term really gets started it will calm down as usual.


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## goldenecitrone (Sep 29, 2006)

That's scary. Executing people in the middle of a busy restaurant in the early evening. Very sad for Brixton.


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## girasol (Sep 29, 2006)

Treebeard said:
			
		

> This is a glitch, and the two incidents   (Fridge on Monday and McD's) are completely unrelated, the former being linked to triad gangs.



Are you 100% sure they are unconnected though?  My first thought when I heard about it was that it could all be part of another pointless gang war, as this seemed to be an execution style shooting.

I get on the bus from Wandsworth to Brixton about once a week in the afternoon, and practically every time there seems to be some sort of trouble involving teenage boys.


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## kidtripod (Sep 29, 2006)

Treebeard said:
			
		

> Sorry - I don't want you to get defensive here, but what places have closed down and not reopened as something else?



Just as an example I find it hard to justify going to pubs in Brixton now, there appears to have been an atmospheric shift. I've been in some recently to find they're ghost pubs for no apparent reason. There was a good deal of initial reaction stuff in that post as well.

My concern over these two incidents is that they will do a combination of scaring people into staying in (which appears to be worse now than say a year ago) and justifying the shutting down of any "problem" establishments for good, until eventually there's none left. The whole business with the schools shutting early the other week just looks bizarre now.


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## trashpony (Sep 29, 2006)

Iemanja said:
			
		

> Are you 100% sure they are unconnected though?  My first thought when I heard about it was that it could all be part of another pointless gang war, as this seemed to be an execution style shooting.
> 
> I get on the bus from Wandsworth to Brixton about once a week in the afternoon, and practically every time there seems to be some sort of trouble involving teenage boys.



The guys shot at the Fridge were Vietnamese. Not sure about these two. I don't know what's worse - them being related or them being two entirely separate incidents.


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## netbob (Sep 29, 2006)

I love the fact that the papers automatically albelled it Triad because its Viatmanease - do triads groups even come from there?


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## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> The guys shot at the Fridge were Vietnamese. Not sure about these two. I don't know what's worse - them being related or them being two entirely separate incidents.



All reminds me abit of Alby Starvation.. - all the hitmen roaming around Brixton.


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## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> All reminds me abit of Alby Starvation.. - all the hitmen roaming around Brixton.



have ya got a copy of alby starvation??? I lost mine... 

re: vietnamese triad stuff, my vietnamese friend said  most of the chinese take aways were paying some protection money to the triad and most of these shops are run by the vietnamese

re: Brixton weird vibe - it's Brixton  - you can't have moved here post 1981 riots thinking the place was all sunshine and roses...


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## boozybirdie (Sep 29, 2006)

Don't think they are related but there is an atmosphere in Brixton at the mo, it kicked off in Fridge bar last night and everyone was on edge.  It's not good


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## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

boohoo said:
			
		

> have ya got a copy of alby starvation??? I lost mine...




I am afraid I borrowed mine - in the name of the low consumption lifestyle.


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## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> I am afraid I borrowed mine - in the name of the low consumption lifestyle.



damm - I lent mine out years ago...never saw it again...


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## linerider (Sep 29, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> not true
> 
> not even near the truth
> 
> ...


I haven't been in macdonalds for about 6 months,but there were crack dealers in there then.
oh my god I've just agreed with Phildwyer


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## ovaltina (Sep 29, 2006)

I've just moved back to clapham/brixton after 12 years away and am glad this is the exception, not the rule. It's all a bit wild west. I walked past the McD's last night and thought it was a car crash, but no it's another shooting. Hope the police are on top of this.


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## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> oh my god I've just agreed with Phildwyer



don't make a habit of it, we'd have to put you down like a rabid dog.


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## linerider (Sep 29, 2006)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> don't make a habit of it, we'd have to put you down like a rabid dog.


I'm in a state of total shock and think i'll go and lay down in a darken room until I stop feeling so dirty.


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## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

you need one of London's special new badges. 

they were all the rage at offline last night. Can  you guess what they said?


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## linerider (Sep 29, 2006)

Dubversion said:
			
		

> you need one of London's special new badges.
> 
> they were all the rage at offline last night. Can  you guess what they said?


F.O.D.?


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## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

might be.


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## gaijingirl (Sep 29, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> F.O.D.?


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## Cid (Sep 29, 2006)

I saw this on my way to Brixton tube yesterday... Not the actual shooting but the police cordon and people getting loaded onto ambulances. Massive crowd of people staring, assumed it must have been a bus accident or something and walked on (don't like gawping at crime scenes). Didn't notice any air ambulances mind you, although it's possible they used ground ambulances to transport them to somewhere that the helicopter could land.


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## Giles (Sep 29, 2006)

It was probably over something REALLY IMPORTANT, like, the victim "dissed" the shooter by pushing in the queue for his Big Mac......


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## linerider (Sep 29, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> I haven't been in macdonalds for about 6 months,but there were crack dealers in there then.
> oh my god I've just agreed with Phildwyer


It does give a whole new meaning to being asked"do you want coke with your burger?"though.


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## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> It was probably over something REALLY IMPORTANT, like, the victim "dissed" the shooter by pushing in the queue for his Big Mac......




Thats the law of the street though innit.


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## editor (Sep 29, 2006)

What's worrying is that this fucking gun-toting psycho us still on the streets.


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## RushcroftRoader (Sep 29, 2006)

Re: the weird vibe. I think its partly due to the fact that now the police have been so successful in shuting down crack houses, the "chaotic" crack addicts are now donig a lot of late night shouting and screaming on the streets instead. 
The crack dealers are often not sorting out their customers to the early morning, according to people in the know. 
I would be amazed if the two shootings are connected. The Fridge was full of Vietnamese on Sunday night because of a big Vietnamese event at the Academy during the day.
The thought also occured to me that the drugs market might be getting tougher and less lucrative for the dealers, which might be causing more friction between rival gangs. No idea if this is true or not, but throwing it open for discussion. 
The worrying question is whether there is a new local source of guns for these guys?


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## Dave Mullen (Sep 29, 2006)

Its all happening in Brixton. I was having a quiet pint with a comrade in the beehive last night and in the space of about 20 minutes two fights kicked off.


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## William of Walworth (Sep 29, 2006)

This is all dreadful, but I hope I continue my 25 year streak of luck by not witnessing anything violent/fighty anywhere in Brixton tomorrow ....


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## William of Walworth (Sep 29, 2006)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Is there anyone left who _doesn't_ have dwyer on ignore?



Worked for me well mainly  

Numbers are growing, too, it seems. I seriously advise it ....


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## bluestreak (Sep 29, 2006)

i don't have dwyer on ignore, and i haven't really noticed a weird vibe in brixton recently.  but i am a) remarkably tolerant of mr dwyer's little ways, and b) relatively new to brixton.


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## aurora green (Sep 29, 2006)

RushcroftRoader said:
			
		

> ..
> The worrying question is whether there is a new local source of guns for these guys?



Yeah, this is what I've been thinking all morning...
Just where are all these guns coming from? How the fuck are teenagers getting hold of them?


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## editor (Sep 29, 2006)

I've heard that there was a big rumble on Coldharbour Lane recently, with big gangs slugging it out with baseball bats.

Anyone hear anything?


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## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Agent Sparrow said:
			
		

> If commuters get caught up in the "they're so inconsiderate" debate for having their journey delayed by half an hour then frankly they can go fuck themselves IMO.



I guess I can fuck myself then, because I do see it as inconsiderate. There are much easier ways of killing yourself that don't fuck things up for other people. 

Don't get me wrong, I have every sympathy that they're down enough to take their own life, but annoyance at them causing big disruptions and traumatising the driver isn't exclusive to that.


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## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

bluestreak said:
			
		

> i don't have dwyer on ignore, and i haven't really noticed a weird vibe in brixton recently.  but i am a) remarkably tolerant of mr dwyer's little ways, and b) relatively new to brixton.



I haven't noticed any new or particularly weird vibe... in fact I find it all rather jolly, whether passing the skunk weed man in Brixton market or going past the bloke looking for his crack last night which he dropped out of his homemade pipe.


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## DRINK? (Sep 29, 2006)

Doesn't surprise me, was in there about 2 years ago and two youth gangs started mouthing off at each other...almost came to blows when one lad pulled up his shirt to show he had a gun down his pants....funnily enough the other gang left quick, though thought at the time how many of them would be off to get tooled up asap. Tis all f*cked up one big ol vicious circle..can't see it getting anything but worse mind


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## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Hmm, there is a slight edge, but that's probably as a result of the shootings, not shootings as a result of he edge if that makes sense.

Very, very bad for Brixton though. Was just getting a good reputation and less ignorance and now it's right back at the top of the "rough shit hole list"


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## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Very, very bad for Brixton though. Was just getting a good reputation and less ignorance and now it's right back at the top of the "rough shit hole list"



Nah, not a chance, Chris.


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## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

RushcroftRoader said:
			
		

> Re: the weird vibe. I think its partly due to the fact that now the police have been so successful in shuting down crack houses, the "chaotic" crack addicts are now donig a lot of late night shouting and screaming on the streets instead.



I think that's part of Brixton's problem, yes.  Even if they don't commit crime, they can certainly be intimidating.  I think its an argument for localizing and isolating drug use by allowing it in particular, perhaps even supervized, circumstances--like that alkies compound in Brockwell Park.  Don't know if it would work with crack, but it does with heroin users.


----------



## magneze (Sep 29, 2006)

Apparently the victim that was "critical" is now "stable", which is good.

Still bloody worrying that someone who shoots two people in a crowded McDonalds at 5:30 in the afternoon is still around though!


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Nah, not a chance, Chris.



Judging by comments I've heard on the way to work and actually at work, then I'd say there was every chance!


----------



## Tank Girl (Sep 29, 2006)

Cid said:
			
		

> I saw this on my way to Brixton tube yesterday... Not the actual shooting but the police cordon and people getting loaded onto ambulances. Massive crowd of people staring, assumed it must have been a bus accident or something and walked on (don't like gawping at crime scenes). Didn't notice any air ambulances mind you, although it's possible they used ground ambulances to transport them to somewhere that the helicopter could land.



I went by on the bus just after it had happened, the air ambulance was parked on the patch of green over the road from st matthews church.


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 29, 2006)

I think the lesson we should take away from all of this is that McDonalds is bad for your health and best avoided!


----------



## editor (Sep 29, 2006)

DRINK? said:
			
		

> Doesn't surprise me, was in there about 2 years ago and two youth gangs started mouthing off at each other...almost came to blows when one lad pulled up his shirt to show he had a gun down his pants....


If only it had accidentally gone off at that point....


----------



## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Judging by comments I've heard on the way to work and actually at work, then I'd say there was every chance!



Yes - but in 1 weeks time, 1 months time.. its just today's flash news.

I can't imagine there's gonna be a mass exodus to Tottenham.. for example.


----------



## Roadkill (Sep 29, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> If only it had accidentally gone off at that point....



If only every gun-carrying scally could accidentally shoot their own willy off ...

<sorry, perhaps not the thread for flippant comments>


----------



## calno4 (Sep 29, 2006)

http://news.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-13544788,00.html

McDonald' said the pair had not been queuing for food as previously reported as CCTV footage showed them popping in and out of the restaurant.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Yes - but in 1 weeks time, 1 months time.. its just today's flash news.
> 
> I can't imagine there's gonna be a mass exodus to Tottenham.. for example.



Nah, I don't mean people who live in the area, but all the Tarquins and Julians will be saying "I knew it was a shithole all along" - it bothers me when people think Brixton is a shithole and whilst it could be a good thing that ignorant fucks think badly of Brixton, it still winds me up when people slag it off and haven't ever been anywhere near it. Apart from Living.


----------



## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2006)

I'm getting really sick and tired of all this shit.


----------



## Skim (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> I can't imagine there's gonna be a mass exodus to Tottenham.. for example.



Things couldn't get _that_ bad, could they?


----------



## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

Skim said:
			
		

> Things couldn't get _that_ bad, could they?




it would take a fuck of a lot of shootings in every other part of the country APART from tottenham for that to happen.


----------



## Loki (Sep 29, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> It was probably over something REALLY IMPORTANT, like, the victim "dissed" the shooter by pushing in the queue for his Big Mac......


Was talking to my mate last night, apparantly that was exactly what happened when someone was shot dead in McDonalds in Camberwell a while back.

It's the kind of thing that saps the will to live here.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

*..*




			
				Skim said:
			
		

> Things couldn't get _that_ bad, could they?



We're talkin' post-apocalyptic here...


----------



## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Yes - but in 1 weeks time, 1 months time.. its just today's flash news.
> 
> I can't imagine there's gonna be a mass exodus to Tottenham.. for example.



I might consider swapping my herne hill/Brixton base for a bit of Tottenham if you can get me either the vicarage by Bruce castle park - 18th house with fantastic metal workgate next to medieval church and large park with 500 year old oak or perhaps the oldest semi-detached house in London. Plus the  food is more varied and fresher up there!


----------



## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2006)

wiskey said:
			
		

> yeah since we decided to move i've been really conscious about the vibe in brixton being weird. i thought i'd see everything great about brixton but actually its pissing me off and i cant wait for a break.
> 
> which is a shame as i've lived here for over 20 years and grown up here.


I've been saying much the same for a while, now. I've lived here since the late 70s, and the last 7 years or so have seen things take a real nosedive from which it just doesn't seem to be recovering.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> I've been saying much the same for a while, now. I've livedhere since the late 70s, and the last 7 years or so have seen things take a real nosedive from which it just doesn't seem to be recovering.



Its purely a matter of economics though.  Once property prices go high enough relative to the surrounding areas, you can bet the streets of Brixton will be swept clean.


----------



## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2006)

kidtripod said:
			
		

> It's odd some of you have mentioned a strange vibe to the place, as a few weeks ago an old colleague of mine that had lived here for 10 years moved out of the area after an unfortunate incident, the nature of which I didn't quite get, but it clearly upset him a lot.
> 
> I'm certainly feeling that the life is being sucked out of the main town area now. Things seem to shut down and have nothing open in their place. I hope it's just a phase.


I've noticed this trend across London as a whole for a while, now. Urban decay? I think that's what it was once termed as.


----------



## Giles (Sep 29, 2006)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> Nah, I don't mean people who live in the area, but all the Tarquins and Julians will be saying "I knew it was a shithole all along" - it bothers me when people think Brixton is a shithole and whilst it could be a good thing that ignorant fucks think badly of Brixton, it still winds me up when people slag it off and haven't ever been anywhere near it. Apart from Living.



Look on the bright side - at least it will stop the gentrification of the area, won't it?  

Giles..


----------



## poster342002 (Sep 29, 2006)

boohoo said:
			
		

> I haven't noticed any new or particularly weird vibe... in fact I find it all rather jolly, whether passing the skunk weed man in Brixton market or going past the bloke looking for his crack last night which he dropped out of his homemade pipe.


Yeah - that scene is just a _ball_ of a warm, inviting atmospheare of freindliness. NOT.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> Look on the bright side - at least it will stop the gentrification of the area, won't it?
> 
> Giles..



I do wonder if a few people might be secretly pleased at the the recent trouble for this exact reason..


----------



## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

ChrisFilter said:
			
		

> I do wonder if a few people might be secretly pleased at the the recent trouble for this exact reason..



  Its a funny old world.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Its a funny old world.



It certainly is, Hollis, it certainly is


----------



## editor (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Its a funny old world.


You wouldn't get this kind of thing going on in the Cultural Quarter of Wood Green.

Brandy-fuelled arguments over Seurat's painting technique breaking out into mild fisticuffs, perhaps, but with all those Bo-Ho _artistes _about, most would react to street scuffles by knocking out a few salutary stanzas, or perhaps staging a short play.


----------



## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Yeah - that scene is just a _ball_ of a warm, inviting atmospheare of freindliness. NOT.



Well, you've lived in the area as long as I have - you kind of switch off from the rough stuff after awhile. As long as no-one bothers you.


----------



## Hollis (Sep 29, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> You wouldn't get this kind of thing going on in the Cultural Quarter of Wood Green.
> 
> Brandy-fuelled arguments over Seurat's painting technique breaking out into mild fisticuffs, perhaps, but with all those Bo-Ho _artistes _about, most would react to street scuffles by knocking out a few salutary stanzas, or perhaps staging a short play.



I entirely agree. We is a higher class of hoighty-toighty up in the Woode Green environs.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 29, 2006)

RushcroftRoader said:
			
		

> I think the lesson we should take away from all of this is that McDonalds is bad for your health and best avoided!



I know I shouldn't but ...


----------



## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> I entirely agree. We is a higher class of hoighty-toighty up in the Woode Green environs.



what, the rough bit with the shopping centre then.... 

Wood Green, the arsehole of north London*










*actually there are worse places.....


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> I haven't been in macdonalds for about 6 months,but there were crack dealers in there then.
> oh my god I've just agreed with Phildwyer



All that standing around dealing on the street can be hungry work y'know.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 29, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> I've noticed this trend across London as a whole for a while, now. Urban decay? I think that's what it was once termed as.



As someone else asked kidtripod, where's the physical signs of this process. What shops have shut down in Brixton and haven't been replaced?

TBH, although things have been disrupted by shootings more often recently, the atmosphere doesn't seem markedly different to me, apart from on the bus with the gossiping schoolkids perhaps. I suspect that pubs and venues have felt a little quieter because it was the end of the month, when bank accounts run low. Pubs were heaving for the football on Tues/Wed...

There's always some grim shit going on in Brixton sadly - an acquaintance was stabbed and killed just a couple of weeks back in Brockwell leading to much soulsearching and gossip down the locals- but this stuff's high profile and copyworthy (schoolchildren, triads, nightclubs, McD's). I'm not sure it really is that much worse for the average bod in Brixton, but I think it does compound the reputation of the place to outsiders.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> All that standing around dealing on the street can be hungry work y'know.



They're not even eating.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> All that standing around dealing on the street can be hungry work y'know.



Anyway, I think this topic is viewed as a bit of a distraction from this thread--I'll PM ya--if you'll empty your box


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 29, 2006)

I just saw this today in the Standard.  Could you imagine 10 years ago that there would be a fatal shooting during the day in McDonalds?  And if there was, it would be the top story on every news builten.  The sad thing that it doesn't even register today as a news story/tragedy.

TBH, I am glad I moved out of Brixton, as if I want that "vibe" then I hear South Central LA is nice this time of year.

A very sad day for where I was born and bred


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Anyway, I think this topic is viewed as a bit of a distraction from this thread--I'll PM ya--if you'll empty your box



phildwyer in anti thread-derailing shocker


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> phildwyer in anti thread-derailing shocker



Nothing if not public-spirited, me.  PM sent.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Sep 29, 2006)

*More info*

More info at Black Information Link.


----------



## urbanspaceman (Sep 29, 2006)

*I'm getting too old for this shit*

I've lived here for 22 years - bought a house and done it up. So I guess I'm one of the hated gentrifiers. But don't worry all you hep cats - Brixton hasn't gentrified - things are still just as cool and edgy and urban as ever. Just the way all the Nathan Barleys on this board like it. The police gave up any pretense of doing the job as soon as Commander Cannabis slackened the reins a little. And they've never bothered to take back control. 

I'm sick of the squalor (e.g. the ankle deep fired chicken detritus out the Ritzy), the public urination, the aggressive begging, constant drug dealing, the crackhead twitching and writhing in my front garden all last Sunday afternoon, and the fear of accidentally making eye contact on the street that might be misconstrued.

And Brixton is not a multicultural paradise - it's inhabited by two populations that rarely intersect - young professionals on the way up and through it, and a desperately culturally-degraded underclass, the children of whom are exposed daily to to put it mildly, negative roles models. And who know of nothing else.

If it wasn't for the huge advantage of the Tube, an umbilical that ties Brixton firmly into London as a whole, this place would be a fully-fledged combat zone.

Telegraph Hill looks nice - time to assemble the escape committee.


----------



## gabi (Sep 29, 2006)

I've also started questioning why I choose to live here anymore either to be honest... 

Pretty much had it with being hassled and whistled at by those fucking idiot oregano salesmen at the bus stops, having my arm grabbed by fucked up crackhead beggars outside the tube, and opening my front door to find someone happily pissing on it. Now we seem to have a new wave of gun crime.

Been spending more time out in east london with mates lately and yeh, am thinking what was once the unthinkable for me and giving up Brixton for the east end.


----------



## tarannau (Sep 29, 2006)

urbanspaceman said:
			
		

> And Brixton is not a multicultural paradise - it's inhabited by two populations that rarely intersect - young professionals on the way up and through it, and a desperately culturally-degraded underclass, the children of whom are exposed daily to to put it mildly, negative roles models. And who know of nothing




Maybe that's true for you (you patronising, reductive arse - 'who know of nothing indeed') but I can guarantee I don't feel the same. I'd love to know which one of the two groups you'd put me and my friends in - 'young professionals' or 'culturally degraded underclass.' It's a winning choice isn't it?


----------



## aurora green (Sep 29, 2006)

Steady on peeps!
I can't believe I live in the same town as some of you.
I've just been having a major dilemma about leaving here and moving to West Norwood, and although the move might still go ahead, my hearts not really in it...
Perhaps  on my estate things just aren't so on-top as on the high street, but really I don't recognise this somewhat hysterical picture thats being painted here.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

urbanspaceman said:
			
		

> it's inhabited by two populations that rarely intersect - young professionals on the way up and through it, and a desperately culturally-degraded underclass



Sorry, but that's bollocks.  The vast majority of Brixtonians fall into neither of these categories.  I'm amazed that you could live there for 22 years and retain this impression.


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I don't recognise this somewhat hysterical picture thats being painted here.



Innit, what I was thinkin.  

picking up on a bad vibe on the streets ?

more like picking up bad "vibrancy" on the street.

Anyway, I thought half you yuppies came here to see people get shot, be hip urban dudez, and live somewhere racy.


----------



## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

urbanspaceman said:
			
		

> I've lived here for 22 years - bought a house and done it up. So I guess I'm one of the hated gentrifiers. But don't worry all you hep cats - Brixton hasn't gentrified - things are still just as cool and edgy and urban as ever. Just the way all the Nathan Barleys on this board like it. The police gave up any pretense of doing the job as soon as Commander Cannabis slackened the reins a little. And they've never bothered to take back control.
> 
> I'm sick of the squalor (e.g. the ankle deep fired chicken detritus out the Ritzy), the public urination, the aggressive begging, constant drug dealing, the crackhead twitching and writhing in my front garden all last Sunday afternoon, and the fear of accidentally making eye contact on the street that might be misconstrued.
> 
> ...



what a heap of over-generalised, stereotype-ridden bullshit


----------



## agricola (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that's bollocks.  The vast majority of Brixtonians fall into neither of these categories.  I'm amazed that you could live there for 22 years and retain this impression.



That, and the comments by Dub, Taraunau and some others are spot on.  

The problems that have been described are, in all probability, the fault of a very small number (ie: in the low hundreds) of people (mainly between 14 and 25) who are operating as if mugging / drug dealing and gangsterism generally are cool, and who are doing it for their own selfish ends rather than as part of a depressed underclass.


----------



## Dubversion (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Steady on peeps!
> I can't believe I live in the same town as some of you.
> I've just been having a major dilemma about leaving here and moving to West Norwood, and although the move might still go ahead, my hearts not really in it...
> Perhaps  on my estate things just aren't so on-top as on the high street, but really I don't recognise this somewhat hysterical picture thats being painted here.




I feel much safer in Brixton of an evening than I used to in places like Poole - full of pissed up lads and squaddies looking for a ruck.

Much as it doesn't make young people dying any more palatable, this violence is rarely random.


----------



## boohoo (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> but really I don't recognise this somewhat hysterical picture thats being painted here.



Yer, I was much more worried when the man randomly attacked the cyclist with a machete outside MacDonalds in Camberwell....

we never hear much about the gun problems in Nottingham and Leicester....


----------



## linerider (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Sorry, but that's bollocks.  The vast majority of Brixtonians fall into neither of these categories.  I'm amazed that you could live there for 22 years and retain this impression.


Help,I've agreed with Phildwyer twice in one day. 
Dub will have me put down as a rabid dog.


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 29, 2006)

As I said in an earlier post, in many many years of visiting Brixton (and since 1991, from nearby -- so quite often) I've never encountered any significantly bad shit. OK call me lucky perhaps.

I agree with aurora though -- some people in this thread are painting an exaggerated, near hysterical even, picture ("South Central LA" indeed  ) that doesn't for me and others who know Brixton better, conform with the _usually_ much more humdrum reality.

Not in denial that's there's been some bad shit going on and Rushcroft Roader earlier suggested one or two reasons why conflict is going to be more apparant on the street at the moment than it was a while back. 

But what proportion of Brixton residents and visitors actually witness it, and how often?

Not wanting to minimise how terrible a shooting is when it does happen, nor do I want to belittle any victim's bad experience. But people should try and see the overall scene in perspective, and be informed by the insights of residents ...


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2006)

Brixton _can_ be grim - last Saturday morning, I saw a crack whore wanking a trampy fellow off in the phone booth opposite the tube station. Which was nice.


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 29, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Brixton _can_ be grim - last Saturday morning, I saw a crack whore wanking a trampy fellow off in the phone booth opposite the tube station. Which was nice.



Sorry about that.. I was really pissed and she was cheap.


----------



## goldman (Sep 29, 2006)

urbanspaceman said:
			
		

> I've lived here for 22 years - bought a house and done it up. So I guess I'm one of the hated gentrifiers. But don't worry all you hep cats - Brixton hasn't gentrified - things are still just as cool and edgy and urban as ever. Just the way all the Nathan Barleys on this board like it. The police gave up any pretense of doing the job as soon as Commander Cannabis slackened the reins a little. And they've never bothered to take back control.
> 
> I'm sick of the squalor (e.g. the ankle deep fired chicken detritus out the Ritzy), the public urination, the aggressive begging, constant drug dealing, the crackhead twitching and writhing in my front garden all last Sunday afternoon, and the fear of accidentally making eye contact on the street that might be misconstrued.
> 
> ...




This post seems fairly accurate to me. I've lived around here for 8 years and basically agree that the squalor, begging, crack epidemic and failure by the police to do anything about it have become totally out of control. Let's face it it's a shithole.


----------



## netbob (Sep 29, 2006)

goldman said:
			
		

> This post seems fairly accurate to me. I've lived around here for 8 years and basically agree that the squalor, begging, crack epidemic and failure by the police to do anything about it have become totally out of control. Let's face it it's a shithole.



If thats your opinion, why did/do you live there then? 

Not true to say that the polcie arent doing anything about it - crack/guns/poverty/prostitution etc arent exactly the kind of thing that can be fixed with a magic truncheon.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> Brixton _can_ be grim - last Saturday morning, I saw a crack whore wanking a trampy fellow off in the phone booth opposite the tube station. Which was nice.



pics or stfu  

just to add my tuppence worth. this is an appaling crime carried out by an idiot(s) fuelled, i guess, by drugs or the want of 'respect'. 

i think half the problem here is that it has happened right in the heart of brixton inside somewhere where, despite not always being the nicest place to visit, you dont expect shootings at that time of day. this will (and indeed has, judging by the sateillite trucks parked up near ritzy) attract much more attention than a shooting elsewhere in Brixton - even just across the road in CHL.

luckily crimes like this are a rarity even in the 'badlands' of Brixton.

Personally i would like to see this kind of outrage at every shooting that happens in London, not just ones that happen in places the wider public can associate with - maybe then the mindless loss of life can be addressed and not just relegated to a 'nib' in the metro.

Be interesting to see if this fuckwit gets turned in, i hope so.


----------



## goldman (Sep 29, 2006)

memespring said:
			
		

> If thats your opinion, why did/do you live there then?
> 
> Not true to say that the polcie arent doing anything about it - crack/guns/poverty/prostitution etc arent exactly the kind of thing that can be fixed with a magic truncheon.



I'm moving. I'm having a kid and I'm off to another part of London which isn't particularly posh, but it's quiet and boring. I want boring - a million times better than the shitty in yer face nightmare that Brixton has become. Plus I don't want the newborn sprog to be exposed to crackheads pissing all over the street, arguing, harrassing me for five pence toward the next rock. Or losers letting off firearms on the High Street.


----------



## Ms Ordinary (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> really I don't recognise this somewhat hysterical picture thats being painted here.



Neither do I - sometimes I read threads like this & wonder if I'm wandering around with my eyes shut because I don't notice these 'bad vibes on the street'  or live in fear of 'accidentally making eye contact' with someone.

And I still think its a decent place to bring up kids - not perfect, but everywhere has its problems.

I mean, fine to move out if you want to live in the countryside or whatever, but don't fool yourself that you'll be protecting your children by doing so. (this bit is obviously not directed at Aurora).


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 29, 2006)

One shooting doesn't make Brixton Gangland Central!!! 
But times must be tough, saw "got 5p mate?" crackhead begger guy this morning and he was only asking for a penny!!


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 29, 2006)

How lot can you shrug your shoulders and say, oh well, Brixton isn't that bad?

Someone went into McDonalds and opened fire, at a time when it would have been full of children.

If these "wanna be ganstas" want to shoot themselves to kingdom come in some crack house or back alley, then fair enough, but opening fire in McDonalds when familes are about is unforgivable and a worrying new devlopment too.

As someone who grew up in the area, I'd never thought I see the day when it got this bad and Brixton has never exactly been Henly-on-Thames.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2006)

Ms Ordinary said:
			
		

> Neither do I - sometimes I read threads like this & wonder if I'm wandering around with my eyes shut because I don't notice these 'bad vibes on the street'  or live in fear of 'accidentally making eye contact' with someone.



i think theres a few places where that would apply to - round the usual haunts in the small hours can be fucking grim.

but i have thought that everywhere i have lived tbh.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2006)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> How lot can you shrug your shoulders and say, oh well, Brixton isn't that bad?
> 
> Someone went into McDonalds and opened fire, at a time when it would have been full of children.
> 
> ...



i dont think anyone is downplaying how wrong this crime is one bit.

they are just also not saying brixton has become somewhere kurt russell would wear leather and ride a motorbike round wasting people.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 29, 2006)

Brixton has several parallel universes that occasionally overlap - yesterday was one of those occasions, but most of the time Brixton residents are blithely unaware of the other worlds


----------



## aurora green (Sep 29, 2006)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> How lot can you shrug your shoulders and say, oh well, Brixton isn't that bad?
> 
> Someone went into McDonalds and opened fire, at a time when it would have been full of children.
> 
> ...



No one is shrugging their shoulders. Everywhere I've gone today with my young son, this terrible incident was being discussed. I think this is a community in shock and horror at what has happened. This in no way is a normal or regular occurance,
I come back to same thing I posted earlier, where on earth are the youngsters getting these guns from? Who is supplying them? How come they fall so easily into the hands of youngsters?


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I come back to same thing I posted earlier, where on earth are the youngsters getting these guns from? Who is supplying them?



Most illegal guns originate in Eastern Europe, especially Serbia and Albania.


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 29, 2006)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> How lot can you shrug your shoulders and say, oh well, Brixton isn't that bad?
> 
> Someone went into McDonalds and opened fire, at a time when it would have been full of children.
> 
> ...



People are murdered on their doorsteps in Chelsea, Knightsbridge and Notting Hill as well. Its always shocking when it happens on your doorstep, buts lets just take a measured view here. 
The shooting is horrific and shocking because everybody can imagine being in the queue when it happened. It doesn't matter where you live, violence is potentially just yards away. 
Brixton is not descending into some sort of gangland hell. We have had two shootings in the space of a week. The first, in all likelihood, involved folk from outside the borough in all probability and the second is, at the moment, an isolated incident. 
Anyone who thinks this is a new problem should check out this article from 2002.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Most illegal guns originate in Eastern Europe, especially Serbia and Albania.



its a piece of piss to get guns these days.

dirt cheap too.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> its a piece of piss to get guns these days.
> 
> dirt cheap too.



Yep.  What happened was Eastern European arms factories lost their markets with the collapse of Communism, and they began to sell to criminals instead.


----------



## trabuquera (Sep 29, 2006)

It's interesting the sort of reactions that are coming out here. 
When I first heard about this I have to confess my reactions were a) shock, b) horror, c) annoyance and d) a prejudiced guess that this was a random shooting about something unbelievably minor (i.e. 'respect' shooting because of someone getting their foot stepped on or their gaze returned or some such bollocks.)

Then I heard from people who know more that it is very probably directly related to a stabbing a few weeks back (one of the mcD's gunshot victims was the only witness to the previous offence). So it was NOT an entirely random event. 

That doesn't make it any more excusable, it doesn't mean it's remotely acceptable to shoot teenagers (even if you're another teenager) and especially not in daylight in a place full of tiny kids. But it bears thinking about in case you are in danger of being swept up in the 'fort apache SW9, it's like south central out there' panic.

Crap like this brings out the law n'order bigot in me I have to confess, so I hope the police find this scumbag and throw the book at him. Preferably a very large very heavy leather-bound legal tome.  Incredibly bloody depressing when you think "well, thank god at least it was only a shotgun and not an automatic", because in that site at that hour things could have been oh so much worse.

It's a horrifying event, but it doesn't mean that Brixton is a horrifying place, if that makes sense.


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 29, 2006)

trabuquera said:
			
		

> It's a horrifying event, but it doesn't mean that Brixton is a horrifying place, if that makes sense.



Seconded


----------



## Dan U (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Yep.  What happened was Eastern European arms factories lost their markets with the collapse of Communism, and they began to sell to criminals instead.



thanks for stating the obvious phil


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 29, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> thanks for stating the obvious phil



Just following your lead, hombre.




			
				Dan U said:
			
		

> its a piece of piss to get guns these days.
> 
> dirt cheap too.


----------



## wiskey (Sep 29, 2006)

in brixton i dont believe much is very random - which is probably why so many people can get by without ever experiencing anything bad. i think from living here for a while that most things are retaliation or direct response to something else involving the victim.

i like brixton very much and i will be sad to go, i fully expect to come back one day (nobody ever really leaves as such ). having just spend the w/e in bristol i have to say that the streets here are spotless in comparison with an army of dilligent and very friendly sweepers working pretty much night and day. 

i think there is a problem with teenagers but thats cos the schools are busy, packed and far away. there is a problem with overcrowding because the pavements are too small and that leads to people invading others personal space a bit too much. and there is obviously a problem with scum persistent sometimes agressive dealers. 

i guess i get a view inside peoples homes at work and theres a lot fo disfunctional homes but that can be turned round with a bit of incentive and time and effort. 

i do worry that brixton fails children though. nto that theres a green and pleasant land just round the corner, but lots of children here have very slack role models and negative inputs. 

but its home


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2006)

goldman said:
			
		

> This post seems fairly accurate to me. I've lived around here for 8 years and basically agree that the squalor, begging, crack epidemic and failure by the police to do anything about it have become totally out of control. Let's face it it's a shithole.



Well of course you'd agree with urbanspaceman. About two-thirds of your entire posting history is taken up with your pissing, moaning and whining about how terrible the area is.

Do yourself a favour and move away, eh? That way we won't have to read your angst-ridden whingeing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2006)

goldman said:
			
		

> I'm moving. I'm having a kid and I'm off to another part of London which isn't particularly posh, but it's quiet and boring. I want boring - a million times better than the shitty in yer face nightmare that Brixton has become. Plus I don't want the newborn sprog to be exposed to crackheads pissing all over the street, arguing, harrassing me for five pence toward the next rock. Or losers letting off firearms on the High Street.



Ah, you *are* moving. Good for you, good for us, but probably a pain in the arse for the area you move too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Most illegal guns originate in Eastern Europe, especially Serbia and Albania.



There's been loads of FSU shite flloating around since '91, and there were quite a few handguns floating around when the wall came down too.
I'm just grateful that we've not had people importing fragmentation grenades too.


----------



## Loki (Sep 29, 2006)

Well I'm off to Tesco, if you don't hear from me it's prolly cos I've been shot while recieving a handjob from a crack whore.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Yep.  What happened was Eastern European arms factories lost their markets with the collapse of Communism, and they began to sell to criminals instead.



Bear in mind that like the US military, the Soviets maintained large caches of small arms in just about every region. Many of those caches were looted wholesale post '91, and the contents sold off for a fraction of their value.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 29, 2006)

Loki said:
			
		

> Well I'm off to Tesco, if you don't hear from me it's prolly cos I've been shot while recieving a handjob from a crack whore.



You wish!


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> You wish!



<sniggers>


----------



## Pip (Sep 29, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> It was probably over something REALLY IMPORTANT, like, the victim "dissed" the shooter by pushing in the queue for his Big Mac......



I'm sorry but I think that kind of attitude completely trivialises the whole problem.
I'm completely disgusted and saddened by what's happened, lets hope the two boys who were shot and everybody who witnessed such a horrific incident are okay.


----------



## Pip (Sep 29, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> Steady on peeps!
> I can't believe I live in the same town as some of you.
> I've just been having a major dilemma about leaving here and moving to West Norwood, and although the move might still go ahead, my hearts not really in it...



West Norwood's rough as fuck!


----------



## aurora green (Sep 29, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> West Norwood's rough as fuck!


thanks.


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> West Norwood's rough as fuck!



Fuck off  

dull as fuck maybe  

rough as fuck ? nope, we is all civilized down this way, unless you tread on our toes, or look at us funny


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 29, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> West Norwood's rough as fuck!



Fuck off  

dull as fuck maybe  

rough as fuck ? nope, we is all civilized down this way, unless you tread on one of our six toes, or look at us funny


----------



## Giles (Sep 30, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but I think that kind of attitude completely trivialises the whole problem.
> I'm completely disgusted and saddened by what's happened, lets hope the two boys who were shot and everybody who witnessed such a horrific incident are okay.



I am not trying to trivialise what happened - rather point out how fucking trivial the reasons for some (many) of these kind of incidents actually are.

Giles..


----------



## William of Walworth (Sep 30, 2006)

*West Norwood*




			
				RaverDrew said:
			
		

> dull as fuck maybe
> 
> rough as fuck ? nope, we is all civilized down this way, unless you tread on our toes, or look at us funny



Drew knows of what he speaks aurora .... Norwood is alright 

And if it gets too boring/dull, there's a train and a bus or two to get you to other places


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 30, 2006)

We don't usually take too kind to strangers aurora...







But for you we'll make an exception, cos you got yourself a mighty purdy name.


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

JHE said:
			
		

> What the fuck was this one all about?  _'You calling my burger a batty bwoy?'_


Occuptaional hazard of McD's advertising arm insisting on referring to "two all beef patties ..." instead of using proper English, what with urban pronunciation being what it is ...


----------



## brixtonvilla (Sep 30, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Occuptaional hazard of McD's advertising arm insisting on referring to "two all beef patties ..." instead of using proper English, what with urban pronunciation being what it is ...



Someone probably asked them if they "got beef".


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> More info at Black Information Link.


And there, in paragraph 2, is exactly why this is a waste of copy ...




			
				Black Information Link said:
			
		

> Church leaders, community activists and politicians put on a united front to overcome fears of giving evidence to the police.



Until there is a recognised voice of youth talking to youth then it will not hit home - I frequently found young (20s), London born and bred police officers tended to have more impact on young offenders that the majority of church leaders, community activists and politicians.  Only youth workers, who often tended to be younger, were, in my experience, more impactive on the group who need to be engaged.


----------



## aurora green (Sep 30, 2006)

RaverDrew said:
			
		

> We don't usually take too kind to strangers aurora...
> 
> 
> ...But for you we'll make an exception, cos you got yourself a mighty purdy name.




Aww...thanks.


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> luckily crimes like this are a rarity even in the 'badlands' of Brixton.


Apparently the "weekly average" this week has been about the same as usual, despite the media hype.  It's just that several of the incidents have caught their attention for some reason (e.g. the age of the victims and time / place of the Macdonalds one) and they've gone into one of their periodic moral panics.

That said, Brixton and other areas with large black populations, will statistically be more affected that other areas as there is indisputable evidence that young (under 24) black men are by far the most likely victims of shootings at present (I think I saw 30 times more likely somewhere - probably BBC News in a half asleep daze this morning).  They are also the most likely suspects as well. 

This is a very significant problem and it has been exercising the black community for some years.  Sadly no-one has yet worked out an effective way of undermining the desire to carry guns (this is usually the only considered, deliberate act - pulling it out and then using it tend to be immediate responses to things said or done).  Increasing penalties for carrying guns has been tried in stages for some years now and even though we are now talking about significant imprisonment for a first offence, the deterrent value does not yet seem to have kicked in.  As with many problems I suspect the answer to the causes are in education / social services / community acivity rather than in policing and criminal justice which tend to focus on the symptoms.  Perhaps some input on dealing with conflict for teenagers would help?


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> .. but opening fire in McDonalds when familes are about is unforgivable and a worrying new devlopment too.


Sadly it's not new (despite what the media would have you believe).  I remember dealing with shootings in fast-food restaurants, playgrounds and other venues where there were children about over fifteen years ago.  My first major enquiry when I took over a murder squad nearly ten years ago involved thirteen shots being fired at the victim and his vehicle with a street ful of kids playing football behind them (in a cul-de-sac just off Landor Road).


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> I come back to same thing I posted earlier, where on earth are the youngsters getting these guns from? Who is supplying them? How come they fall so easily into the hands of youngsters?


There are any number of supply routes but (and I regret to say that even I am forced to agree with phildwyer ... Note to Ed:  Please check because I think the user name "phildwyer" may have been hacked or cloned or something ...) Eastern Europe is very frequently found to be the root at present - transport from there within the effectively borderless EU is particularly easy.

Significant numbers of weapons are also imported and traded entirely *legally* as deactivated weapons, then being reactivated by those with the (very limited) skills needed.  Banning the trade and possession of deactivated weapons would be the only significant legal / policing change that I can see would have any major effect without having a huge civil liberties downside (most potential policing changes involving in increased stop / search at borders or generally).

The use of firearms by drug dealers has created a market for weapons which has encouraged the traders and re-activators.  And the use of increasingly young children as runners by drug dealers has brought teenagers into the world where a few questions will lead to a source and where the money required (which is not massive - just a few hundred quid at most) is readily available from their drug-running activities (and where the dealer they are running for has a vested interest in assisting with the protection of their staff in any event).  Those involved in this world (and there may not be massive numbers) also move in other mainstream teenage circles - music, venues, local groupings (a.k.a. "gangs").  Non-criminal members of these circles see a friend with a gun.  That person is seen to gain kudos for having one (the impact of rap etc. music comes into play here) and suddenly everyone wants one.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 30, 2006)

detective-boy said:
			
		

> Apparently the "weekly average" this week has been about the same as usual, despite the media hype.  It's just that several of the incidents have caught their attention for some reason (e.g. the age of the victims and time / place of the Macdonalds one) and they've gone into one of their periodic moral panics.
> 
> That said, Brixton and other areas with large black populations, will statistically be more affected that other areas as there is indisputable evidence that young (under 24) black men are by far the most likely victims of shootings at present (I think I saw 30 times more likely somewhere - probably BBC News in a half asleep daze this morning).  They are also the most likely suspects as well.
> 
> This is a very significant problem and it has been exercising the black community for some years.  Sadly no-one has yet worked out an effective way of undermining the desire to carry guns (this is usually the only considered, deliberate act - pulling it out and then using it tend to be immediate responses to things said or done).  Increasing penalties for carrying guns has been tried in stages for some years now and even though we are now talking about significant imprisonment for a first offence, the deterrent value does not yet seem to have kicked in.  As with many problems I suspect the answer to the causes are in education / social services / community acivity rather than in policing and criminal justice which tend to focus on the symptoms.  Perhaps some input on dealing with conflict for teenagers would help?



Could also try to control the UK's rampant arms industry - if we weren't making so many, they wouldn't be able to get hold of them so easily. Supply and demand, innit. 

But i agree with you on the education/SS/parenting aspects. Youth with little meaningful moral guidance, probably scared but acting the big man, cos no-ones ever taught them how to stand up for themselves without feeling the need to harm the person they got a beef with.

edited to add link to CAAT


----------



## detective-boy (Sep 30, 2006)

Paulie Tandoori said:
			
		

> Could also try to control the UK's rampant arms industry - if we weren't making so many, they wouldn't be able to get hold of them so easily. Supply and demand, innit.


Though I have no love for the arms industry, any sort of changes or controls at that level are way, way far too removed from this problem to have any short or medium term impact.  There are MILLIONS of guns in the world already.  Stopping the production of more will not have any impact on UK street crime for decades.

As with suicide bombers ("the only sure way to stop them is to stop them hating you so much they want to") the only answer is to stop the young people wanting to carry a gun.


----------



## Cid (Sep 30, 2006)

I'm sorry but all this stuff about Brixton being some kind of dark and evil place is frankly bollocks...

Anyone remember the shootings outside Turnmills? Don't see people saying 'ah, Farringdon - dodgy as fuck that place' do you? I remember when I was working in Covent garden - down one street you've got Carluccio's, stylish boutiques etc, few seconds away you've got people dealing crack. Back in Tufnell park (where I lived before) a mate of mine was stabbed to within an inch of his life near the tube... Avoiding muggings was a daily matter, even in the early morning/afternoon. And has anyone walked through Camden after all the gigs have finished and the teens have packed off back to wherever they go? Fucking dark place... Grim looking crack heads mouthing off at each other. And before anyone says 'if only we were like continental Europe' you can shut up too... Thinking of the Champs Elysee etc as the face of Paris is like associating London with the area around St Paul's.

Fact is in Brixton I've never felt threatened by the violence - admittedly that's probably because I live on Tulse Hill and never actually have to stray off the main roads but you could say that about so much of London. This incident has been shocking though it must be said...


----------



## ChrisFilter (Sep 30, 2006)

Enid Laundromat said:
			
		

> West Norwood's rough as fuck!



Fuck off is it! Sometimes head down there to get bitsand bobs from the High St and it's quiet, peaceful and no sign of trouble.. like Drew said, it's fucking dull, but not rough.


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 30, 2006)

I spend/have spent quite a bit of time in W. Norwood.  IMO it does sometimes give the outer appearance of being rough!  However, it's not so bad.  In fact some of it seems surprisingly affluent to me.  There are a lot of really leafy streets with big old houses (and people who describe their address as Dulwich   mixed in with the smaller terraces).

There is this little motley crew - 2 women and 1 man with shopping carts - who get on the buses there outside the Woolies very often.  I think they must all have mental health problems and they certainly live on the street.  Either way - the smell of shit guarantees that everyone else on the bus gets off at the next stop...   

I appreciate that some people might choose to live on the street - but surely no one chooses to actually be covered in shit?  There's another lady who I speak to very often in Brixton who also has problems.  She's lovely, but extremely paranoid and I do wonder if she's getting the help she needs.  

Sorry - gone a bit off topic there, but I do wonder how people who are so outwardly in need of help fall through the cracks - so to speak?!  Or maybe they just don't want help - I suppose you can't force people to accept a wash and a change of clothes.  

Anyway, all this talk of Brixton being scary and of W. Norwood being rough.  I remember that guy who had his head chopped off with an axe in the poshest bit of Belsize Park a few years ago.  Then there was the guy murdered on his doorstep in Kensington.  My mother, who lives in Bromley said that the number of yellow boards reporting violent crimes there is enormous these days.  A lot of it is to do with false perceptions and media stereotying AFAIC.


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 30, 2006)

"I live in a dodgier area than you!"

"NO you don't!"

"Yes I do."

"Fuck off, no you don't"

"I fuckin do". 

BLAH BLAH BLAH


----------



## gaijingirl (Sep 30, 2006)

Yeah.. but you win hands down on Rushcroft Road...


----------



## RaverDrew (Sep 30, 2006)

RushcroftRoader said:
			
		

> "I live in a dodgier area than you!"
> 
> "NO you don't!"
> 
> ...



Do get a life  

I don't see anyone on this thread bragging about what a dodgy hell hole they live in just to look cool. Infact I can only see the opposite.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 30, 2006)

re where guns come from in the UK

people like this who the police busted recently. frightening amount of weapons lurking in suburbia.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,1872055,00.html


----------



## goldman (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Ah, you *are* moving. Good for you, good for us, but probably a pain in the arse for the area you move too.



I'll be off now. You can go and cuddle a crackkhead. Bye.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 30, 2006)

You said you were off 6 weeks ago.  Get on with it.


----------



## linerider (Sep 30, 2006)

goldman said:
			
		

> I'll be off now. You can go and cuddle a crackkhead. Bye.


What a tosser.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> What a tosser.


You going to elaborate? Or are you just another internerd hard man wading in?


----------



## Dubversion (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> You going to elaborate? Or are you just another internerd hard man wading in?




what's to elaborate? any cursory glance at goldman's posts will confirm linerider's succinct precis of his character.

And what are you? are YOU Just another internerd hardman wading in?

oh,


----------



## Pip (Sep 30, 2006)

aurora green said:
			
		

> thanks.



Sorry, if you're seriously thinking about moving there that was a bit insensitive, but I look after two kids in W Norwood and their (hardened scouser) dad's in the process of moving because he thinks it's too rough. All I ever bloody hear when I go round there is how bad it and the locals are. No offence Drew 
The point is it doesn't matter whether you live in a city, the suburbs or the country, you're bound to experience some sort of trouble at some point because sadly, people can be right bastards sometimes. Stay where you and your kids are happy if you can.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 30, 2006)

Enid, I think it's a council transfer....my experience from moving from one estate to another is that it is toughest for the kids when you've not lived there for very long


----------



## linerider (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> You going to elaborate? Or are you just another internerd hard man wading in?


So if your too stupid to understand,Goldman slags Brixton off and accuses people who still like living here of sticking up for crackheads.I my view the actions of a tosser.


----------



## RushcroftRoader (Sep 30, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Yeah.. but you win hands down on Rushcroft Road...



Hey, I am at the nice end of Rushcroft!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

goldman said:
			
		

> I'll be off now. You can go and cuddle a crackkhead. Bye.



Yep, 'bye. Don't let the door hit your arse as you leave.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> You said you were off 6 weeks ago.  Get on with it.



If that's any indication of how slow he does stuff, he'll still be waiting to move from Brixton when his expected kid isold enough to start secondary school.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> You going to elaborate? Or are you just another internerd hard man wading in?



If anyone is an "internerd" I reckon it must be you, ya soapy twat.

Go on, do like I said on the previous page. Have a look at goldman's posting history. 50-odd posts, and two thirds of 'em are him whining about how shitty Brixton is.

Or do you prefer to shout the odds like you're accusing others of doing?


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> So if your too stupid to understand,Goldman slags Brixton off and accuses people who still like living here of sticking up for crackheads.I my view the actions of a tosser.



Nope, reading some of his posts he's pissed off and he's moving, do you think an exodus of people like him ie middle class,will be good for Brixton? I dont.
The fact is its getting to the point where people (black and white) dont feel safe enough to bring up their kids here.
The loss of vocal white middle classes who historically are most sucessfull at lobbying to improve local schools/services will do Brixton no favours.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> If anyone is an "internerd" I reckon it must be you, ya soapy twat.
> 
> Go on, do like I said on the previous page. Have a look at goldman's posting history. 50-odd posts, and two thirds of 'em are him whining about how shitty Brixton is.
> 
> Or do you prefer to shout the odds like you're accusing others of doing?


Oh dear post count willy waving.
Soapy twat - like that I'll be using that


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> So if your too stupid to understand,Goldman slags Brixton off and accuses people who still like living here of sticking up for crackheads.I my view the actions of a tosser.



Yep. His first post on this thread was " This post seems fairly accurate to me. I've lived around here for 8 years and basically agree that the squalor, begging, crack epidemic and failure by the police to do anything about it have become totally out of control. Let's face it it's a shithole."

One of his first contributions on the site was " Drug dealing scumbags.
If there's ever been a good reason to generally smarten up and dare I say it gentrify certain areas of Brixton, the vile parasites that hang around the corner of Saltoun Road and Windrush square must certainly be it. These sorry vermin crawl 0out at night and sell crack to junkies, and the cops do nothiong about it. Last night some pathetic junkie was sitting on my doorstep at 4 am getting high on my property. My girlfriend had to ask him to get ou the way so she could get through the front door. What a complete waste of space. This hopeless specimen actually asked her if he had to move. Well yes he did. And the cops should bust the wankers who sell him the stuff at the end of the road. If this is what keeping it real in Brixton is all about, then the sooner some developer that decrepit old shooting gallery by the square into luxury flats the better. The cops are cowards, the dealers the worst kind of lowlife and the junkies are sub-human."

There's a bit of a theme running through his bilious ramblings, don't you think?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Oh dear post count willy waving.


Where?
I mentioned goldman's *posting history*, nothing about "post counts", you terminally-dim blob of pondlife.


> Soapy twat - like that I'll be using that


It'd make a good tagline for your username, kind of warn people not to expect anything approaching rational thought from you.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Where?
> I mentioned goldman's *posting history*, nothing about "post counts", you terminally-dim blob of pondlife.
> 
> It'd make a good tagline for your username, kind of warn people not to expect anything approaching rational thought from you.



Calm down dear.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Nope, reading some of his posts he's pissed off and he's moving, do you think an exodus of people like him ie middle class,will be good for Brixton? I dont.


Yes, but his attitude (highlighted by his lovely turns of phrase when describing just about anyone he doesn't approve of in Brixton) is such that he's hardly likely to approach dealing with any "local problems" he has in a rational manner, is he?


> The fact is its getting to the point where people (black and white) dont feel safe enough to bring up their kids here.


But that's pretty much the same in *any* British inner city, in fact I'd rather live in Brixton than plenty of other inner cities.
It doesn't help that we have shit thrown at the area by the media either.
Did you see the headline for friday's _Standard_? "The HItman at MacDonalds" ffs! 
Now call me old-fashioned, but I thought that to call someone a hitman, they had to have been hired to kill someone, and I didn't notice the sub-_Standard_ producing any evidence of that.


> The loss of vocal white middle classes who historically are most sucessfull at lobbying to improve local schools/services will do Brixton no favours.


That's arse about face. The "vocal white middle classes" who have tended to educate their children *outside* the borough weren't doing Brixton any favours anyway.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Yes, but his attitude (highlighted by his lovely turns of phrase when describing just about anyone he doesn't approve of in Brixton) is such that he's hardly likely to approach dealing with any "local problems" he has in a rational manner, is he?.


Rational manner? Internets funny like that isnt it? Wont quote your previous post.



			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> But that's pretty much the same in *any* British inner city.


 That s ok then



			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> It doesn't help that we have shit thrown at the area by the media either.
> Did you see the headline for friday's _Standard_? "The HItman at MacDonalds" ffs! .


 Agreed,  didnt even make the nationals AFAIK though.



			
				ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> That's arse about face. The "vocal white middle classes" who have tended to educate their children *outside* the borough weren't doing Brixton any favours anyway.


Not for primary education they dont, unless they cant get their kids in to some of the excellent local schools, cant very well send them to a local secondary though can they?


----------



## linerider (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Yep. His first post on this thread was " This post seems fairly accurate to me. I've lived around here for 8 years and basically agree that the squalor, begging, crack epidemic and failure by the police to do anything about it have become totally out of control. Let's face it it's a shithole."
> 
> "The cops are cowards, the dealers the worst kind of lowlife and the junkies are sub-human."
> 
> There's a bit of a theme running through his bilious ramblings, don't you think?


I think these are the words of a tosser


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Nope, reading some of his posts he's pissed off and he's moving, do you think an exodus of people like him ie middle class,will be good for Brixton? I dont.
> The fact is its getting to the point where people (black and white) dont feel safe enough to bring up their kids here.
> The loss of vocal white middle classes who historically are most sucessfull at lobbying to improve local schools/services will do Brixton no favours.



Aha.  All middle class people are selfish whiney tossers are they?  Hmmmmm.


----------



## Blagsta (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Oh dear post count willy waving.



Eh?


----------



## suzee blue cheese (Sep 30, 2006)

Another thread bites the dust


----------



## kidtripod (Sep 30, 2006)

There is an important point, that you could end up with all the good people leaving, however I think the concern shown in this thread, and "out there" demonstrates people do actually care about the area, and would rather stay and help it improve than simply jump ship. To be honest it's that which is one of the reasons I ended up moving here in the first place - it has it's faults, but people do choose to live here and make a life here, not simply pass through as with so much of london.

I'd be depressed if the reaction was that this is all normal. But it isn't.


----------



## phildwyer (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> cant very well send them to a local secondary though can they?



Why on earth not?


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Sep 30, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Why on earth not?


Because there isnt one in brixton


----------



## readonly (Sep 30, 2006)

I always knew McDonalds was bad for you.......


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Rational manner? Internets funny like that isnt it? Wont quote your previous post.


Rather like you can't really quote your own, eh?


> That s ok then


No it isn't. It's far from okay.
But trying to imply that Brixton is singularly bad is also far from okay.


> Agreed,  didnt even make the nationals AFAIK though.


Not the front pages, anyway.


> Not for primary education they dont, unless they cant get their kids in to some of the excellent local schools, cant very well send them to a local secondary though can they?


That's the point though.
Why do you think that several secondary schools got closed down in the 1990s, after all, if not for a combination of demographic change in the amount of children in the borough combined with people sending their children further afield?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 30, 2006)

linerider said:
			
		

> I think these are the words of a tosser



Exactly.
It's not like most people in this forum don't acknowledge that Brixton has problems, some of them pretty damn bad, but goldman can't seem to find a single redeeming feature for the area.


----------



## linerider (Sep 30, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Exactly.
> It's not like most people in this forum don't acknowledge that Brixton has problems, some of them pretty damn bad, but goldman can't seem to find a single redeeming feature for the area.


Someone who calls junkies subhuman is beyond contempt.I'm an ex junkie,therefore I used to be subhuman.


----------



## Aitch (Oct 1, 2006)

bloody hell why do so many threads in brixton forum involve arguing???!!!!!  

and yes i did just say bloody hell


----------



## linerider (Oct 1, 2006)

Aitch said:
			
		

> bloody hell why do so many threads in brixton forum involve arguing???!!!!!
> 
> and yes i did just say bloody hell


No they don't


----------



## Aitch (Oct 1, 2006)

yes they do


----------



## linerider (Oct 1, 2006)

Aitch said:
			
		

> yes they do


Oh my god your right


----------



## linerider (Oct 1, 2006)

But to answer your question I think people feel passionate about Brixton even if they weren't born here.In my case I get wound up by people constantly slagging Brixton off,it's a place that has some problems but also has a vibe that I've never found anywhere else.


----------



## Aitch (Oct 1, 2006)

Yeah I know linerider I feel the same about Brixton,  it just seems that everytime I look in on the forum some argument is going on.  I shouldn't really wade in and make random comments.  I've been around on the boards for years and dont post much coz it all kind of winds me up  lol I'll stick to lurking me thinks


----------



## linerider (Oct 1, 2006)

With me it depends on how many pints I've had,sometimes I know it's silly to get involved but next thing I know I've posted a reply without realising I've written it.
Are you the Aitch that drinks down the Albert?.


----------



## Nixon (Oct 1, 2006)

Im surprised it wasn't in the KFC..

This shooting crap is so hard to get my head around sometimes.


----------



## chryss (Oct 1, 2006)

More in the Observer:  "Shot for showing disrespect" http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1884931,00.html


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Oct 1, 2006)

The Fridge wade into the story>

*'A source at Brixton's Fridge club, said: 'The press write stories about drugs and gang warfare, but in the end it all comes down to being an idiot.'*


----------



## JHE (Oct 1, 2006)

DJWrongspeed said:
			
		

> The Fridge wade into the story>
> 
> *'A source at Brixton's Fridge club, said: 'The press write stories about drugs and gang warfare, but in the end it all comes down to being an idiot.'*


Wisely, the source is left anonymous.  It would not be safe to be identified as one who disrespects gun-toting idiots.


----------



## DrRingDing (Oct 1, 2006)

Aren't there enough of you hairy arsed members of the great unwashed in Brixton to do someting about these egotistical melons?

You can even take your guard dogs on a string on patrol.




...I'll be off now


----------



## ska invita (Oct 1, 2006)

Can someone tell me if there has been any picture released of the shooter?

YOu would have thought that considering it was daylight rush hour on the high street there would at least be an artists impression?

There must be a thousand CCTV cameras around there...


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Oct 1, 2006)

niksativa said:
			
		

> Can someone tell me if there has been any picture released of the shooter?
> 
> YOu would have thought that considering it was daylight rush hour on the high street there would at least be an artists impression?
> 
> There must be a thousand CCTV cameras around there...


..and scores of witnesses who can name him, doubt they will release cctv if they have a name so that they dont compromise a trial.


----------



## Loki (Oct 1, 2006)

It takes a good few days for police to get hold of all relevant CCTV tapes, find relevant bits, match them with description and then release images. Bearing in mind this only happened Thurs evening...


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Oct 1, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Why do you think that several secondary schools got closed down in the 1990s, after all, if not for a combination of demographic change in the amount of children in the borough combined with people sending their children further afield?


Sorry about the derail but by that logic they would have closed the Primary schools down first then wouldnt they
70% of Lambeth’s 11 year olds have to leave the borough for their secondary education.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 1, 2006)

DJWrongspeed said:
			
		

> The Fridge wade into the story>
> 
> *'A source at Brixton's Fridge club, said: 'The press write stories about drugs and gang warfare, but in the end it all comes down to being an idiot.'*



I think the anonymous source waded in quite wisely actually ....


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 1, 2006)

Otherwise though, that Observer article was just a generically cliched and really superficial take on how inner city areas of London (code for 'black', but this was scarcely stated, just implied  ) are little else than ultra dangerous gun and crime and drugs infested hellholes.

Kind of media porn ... 

I'm not denying there are genuine problems -- detective boy summarised these well in his earlier posts.

I utterly loathe and detest gun-glorification attitudes yet I've been sneeringly condemned on these forums as having 'hysterical' (and 'liberal', thus evil no doubt   ) attitudes against guns because of my reaction. But I wonder whethner ANYONE who's attempted on Urban to argue for the broadening of the 'right to bear arms' for 'self defence' in this country can offer any single rational or logical argument in favour of loosening gun controls towards an American model. Yes, it's depressingly easy to get hold of guns in this country. That is NOT an argument for making it even easier ...

The real problem though is, as d-b said earlier, addressing why some people WANT to tote guns. I'm sure American cultural influences (whether US rap/street culture or Hollywood or even NRA) don't help in the slightest.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> I wonder whethner ANYONE who's attempted on Urban to argue for the broadening of the 'right to bear arms' for 'self defence' in this country can offer any single rational or logical argument in favour of loosening gun controls towards an American model.



I can.  But I can't be bothered.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> I'm sure American cultural influences (whether US rap/street culture or Hollywood or even NRA) don't help in the slightest.



But I will say one thing very clearly: knee-jerk anti-Americanism such as this can only make matters worse.


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 1, 2006)

Ignore lists are wonderful things. Mine has a membership of one ..


----------



## nonamenopackdrill (Oct 1, 2006)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Ignore lists are wonderful things. Mine has a membership of one ..



What's the point in repeating this over and over again. Are you trying to wind him up.

The whole point of having him on ignore is to ignore him and make things better - not keep using it to wind people up. You've repeated this over and over again.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

nonamenopackdrill said:
			
		

> What's the point in repeating this over and over again. Are you trying to wind him up.
> 
> The whole point of having him on ignore is to ignore him and make things better - not keep using it to wind people up. You've repeated this over and over again.



Don't worry mate, William's got as much chance of winding me up as he has of receiving oral sex from Jennifer Lopez of a moonlight midnight on Copacabana Beach while sipping a capirinha and snorting Peruvian flake through a thousand Real note.


----------



## nonamenopackdrill (Oct 1, 2006)

I recognise that I haven't made things better there.
I've no real wish to converse with you dwyer - I admire your ability to wind people up wth your combination of wit and faux-ignorance, but like a Harry Enfield character, I have to tell you that your actual posts are boring to me. And I'm not your mate.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

nonamenopackdrill said:
			
		

> I recognise that I haven't made things better there.
> I've no real wish to converse with you dwyer - I admire your ability to wind people up wth your combination of wit and faux-ignorance, but like a Harry Enfield character, I have to tell you that your actual posts are boring to me. And I'm not your mate.



Well mate, there's an easy solution available to you innit?  Fuck off and mind your own business.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Sorry about the derail but by that logic they would have closed the Primary schools down first then wouldnt they


You haven't thought this through very well, have you?
If you had then you'd have realised that you shouldn't refer to "logic" when you possess none of your own.

Who form the largest part of the "incomers" to Brixton in the last 20+ years?
That's right, Singles, and young couples, some of whom have...wait for it...children. Those children go to---you guessed it...primary schools before they need secondary schools, hence the primary schools have stayed open while the pressure for secondary places is a relatively recent (the last five years or so) phenomenon.

Try actually sitting down and thinking next time, eh? That way you won't embarrass yourself quite so badly! 


> 70% of Lambeth’s 11 year olds have to leave the borough for their secondary education.


I'm quite aware of that, thanks all the same.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Well mate, there's an easy solution available to you innit?  Fuck off and mind your own business.



Ah, dwyer playing the "internet hardman". Always an amusing sight.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Ah, dwyer playing the "internet hardman". Always an amusing sight.



You don't know who "Nonamenopackdrill" is do you?  Cos if you did you'd be doing your own well-known (and well-mocked) internet hard man act on him.


----------



## nonamenopackdrill (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> You don't know who "Nonamenopackdrill" is do you?  Cos if you did you'd be doing your own well-known (and well-mocked) internet hard man act on him.



Why wouldn't he? It's not a secret.
What's funny is your 'mate' then 'fuck off'. Make your mind up.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

nonamenopackdrill said:
			
		

> Why wouldn't he? It's not a secret.
> What's funny is your 'mate' then 'fuck off'. Make your mind up.



No, you make your mind up.  You come on here slagging off William, I agree with you, then you start slagging off me.  What are you hoping to achieve?  Make your mind up mate.  Or fuck off.


----------



## nonamenopackdrill (Oct 1, 2006)

I didn't slag William off. I told him not to be counterproductive. Then I pointed out that I wasn't your mate. No contradiction there.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

nonamenopackdrill said:
			
		

> I didn't slag William off. I told him not to be counterproductive. Then I pointed out that I wasn't your mate. No contradiction there.



You want a contradiction?  Here's a contradiction: you come on this peaceful thread telling William how to behave, I light-heartedly tell you there's no problem, then you turn on me, then you start bickering about counterproductivity.  I'd call that pretty counterproductive, wouldn't you?


----------



## nonamenopackdrill (Oct 1, 2006)

As I said, I admire your ability to wind people up.


----------



## Rune (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> I'd call that pretty counterproductive, wouldn't you?




He seems to have been productively winding you up.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

Rune said:
			
		

> He seems to have been productively winding you up.



Don't worry mate, he's got as much chance of winding me up as he has of doing Cameron Diaz from behind at sunset as the Miami surf softly sprays his spliff of finest Acapulco Gold.  Hang on we've been here before...


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Oct 1, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> You haven't thought this through very well, have you?
> If you had then you'd have realised that you shouldn't refer to "logic" when you possess none of your own.
> 
> Who form the largest part of the "incomers" to Brixton in the last 20+ years?
> ...



Describe what demographics were at work that the council felt they had* no *requirement to educate local kids over the age of 11?
Lets recall how you originally criticised middle class parents for sending their offspring out of the borough shall we? Do you want to repeat that criticism?
 Despite the fact that that its not just the middle classes its 70 % of all secondary school kids in the borough who have to look elsewhere for their schooling. 
The Secondary Schools Campaign In Lambeth (SSCIL) was actually formed in 2000 by parents and governors who recognised that, after years of school sell-offs, the borough needed to build new secondary schools to serve Clapham, Brixton and Herne Hill. Then, as now, more than 600 children leave year 6 from local primaries in the area.

I am bemused by your arrogant/ rude manner, do you get off trying to belittle people?
Does it makes you feel better? Poking fun of peoples intellect is on a par with mocking them for race/gender/disability IMO.


----------



## Rune (Oct 1, 2006)

Well, the way I see it
He posts, you tell him to fuck off.
He posts, you tell him to fuck off.
He posts, you have a little rant.


----------



## Blagsta (Oct 1, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> I am bemused by your arrogant/ rude manner, do you get off trying to belittle people?
> Does it makes you feel better? Poking fun of peoples intellect is on a par with mocking them for race/gender/disability IMO.



Oh the irony.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

Rune said:
			
		

> Well, the way I see it
> He posts, you tell him to fuck off.
> He posts, you tell him to fuck off.
> He posts, you have a little rant.



Oh the irony.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Oct 1, 2006)

"with teenagers now shooting each other for 'trivial motives' such as name calling, senior police officers warned last night." 
Could be trouble ahead if any of them are on Urban75


----------



## Rune (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Oh the irony.




You'll have to explain that to me.


----------



## Gixxer1000 (Oct 1, 2006)

Oh fuck the ironing.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

Rune said:
			
		

> You'll have to explain that to me.



If you've got to ask you'll never know.


----------



## Rune (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> If you've got to ask you'll never know.




Would you have told me, if I hadn't asked?


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

Rune said:
			
		

> Would you have told me, if I hadn't asked?



Good point.  This has all gone a bit wonky since William arrived hasn't it?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> You don't know who "Nonamenopackdrill" is do you?  Cos if you did you'd be doing your own well-known (and well-mocked) internet hard man act on him.



Phil, I know you love to flatter yourself that you're so much better informed than everyone else, but as usual you're full of hot air.
Of course I know who he is. His disguise was so flimsy that even with Fat Hamster attempting to out him over a week ago anyone with cognitive abilities more powerful than pondweed knew.

I suspect that *you* had to be told who he was.


----------



## phildwyer (Oct 1, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> His disguise was so flimsy



Well that's fooled you, because in fact I *didn't* know who he was.  I do now though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Well that's fooled you, because in fact I *didn't* know who he was.  I do now though.



I believe you.

Someone has to.


----------



## editor (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Don't worry mate, he's got as much chance of winding me up as he has of doing Cameron Diaz from behind at sunset as the Miami surf softly sprays his spliff of finest Acapulco Gold.


I really think you should stay out of the Brixton forum for a while, you know.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

Gixxer1000 said:
			
		

> Describe what demographics were at work that the council felt they had* no *requirement to educate local kids over the age of 11?


Mmm, you're implying something that's inaccurate if you're claiming that the council felt they had *no* requirement for capacity. What happened (AFAICR) was a combination of a misjudgement of available resources (they thought they could use some facilities that it turned out they couldn't) along with selling off (ill-advisedly and against local sentiment) assets like Dick Shepperd that could have been used as stop-gaps.


> Lets recall how you originally criticised middle class parents for sending their offspring out of the borough shall we? Do you want to repeat that criticism?


Why not?
It's one of the factors that influenced the original problems.


> Despite the fact that that its not just the middle classes its 70 % of all secondary school kids in the borough who have to look elsewhere for their schooling.


If a school's roster falls below "critical mass" it risks being shut down. I'm led to believe (by friends in the teaching prfession) that critical mass is about 30% bellow pupil capacity. If that happens the LEA starts looking to disperse pupils to other schools and shut the site down or mothball.


> The Secondary Schools Campaign In Lambeth (SSCIL) was actually formed in 2000 by parents and governors who recognised that, after years of school sell-offs, the borough needed to build new secondary schools to serve Clapham, Brixton and Herne Hill. Then, as now, more than 600 children leave year 6 from local primaries in the area.


The same year Labour Lambeth started the procedure for selling off Dick Shepperd, as I recall. Problem is that by 2000 we'd already lost (IIRC) 1 boys and one mixed secondary in the Tulse Hill/Brixton area. 


> I am bemused by your arrogant/ rude manner, do you get off trying to belittle people?


I'm bemused by your illogic, and as for belittling you, I don't need to.


> Does it makes you feel better? Poking fun of peoples intellect is on a par with mocking them for race/gender/disability IMO.


I agree with you. I *haven't* "poked fun" at your intellect, though. What I've *actually* done is commented on your seeming inability to think rationally and your lack of logic, not on your intellect.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

Blagsta said:
			
		

> Oh the irony.



And from so many perspectives too.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 1, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Good point.  This has all gone a bit wonky since William arrived hasn't it?



Not since *William* arrived, no.


----------



## Julie (Oct 2, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> Not since *William* arrived, no.


----------



## Loki (Oct 2, 2006)

Well done Phil, nearly a whole page trashed I see - you were on form yesterday. I'm with flims on this, your baiting does make me  sometimes but I wish you would confine it to less serious threads like that silly Lucy Gao one.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, he's being banned from this forum because of his thread trashing abilities. He's not even a Brixton resident (although in normal circumstances that is not a bar to posting here) but in terms of the grief he causes in this forum and the extra work he causes the moderators we have decided to take this action.


----------



## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, thanks to all this crap, my girlfriend is now *exremely* reluctant to come and stay over at my place in Brixton anymore.  

Hard to argue with her seeing as she's experienced the "delights" of having to zig-zag her way from the tube station, avoiding all the various "charecters" lunging out, the beard-man who stands outside KFC flailing his arms around demanding money and all the rest. Now we have *this* to cap it all off. 

Lets' face it: no neighbourhood should be experience situations like this. This *ain't* normal, folks.


----------



## fanta (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Well, he's being banned from this forum because of his thread trashing abilities. He's not even a Brixton resident (although in normal circumstances that is not a bar to posting here) but in terms of the grief he causes in this forum and the extra work he causes the moderators we have decided to take this action.



Pathetic.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

Who, him or me?


----------



## fanta (Oct 2, 2006)

I think the decision to ban him is pathetic Mrs M.

All posters derail threads now and again. And any extra work the moderators might have to deal with is probably caused by humourless posters addicted to hitting the report button all the time.


----------



## Loki (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Well, thanks to all this crap, my girlfriend is now *exremely* reluctant to come and stay over at my place in Brixton anymore.
> 
> Hard to argue with her seeing as she's experienced the "delights" of having to zig-zag her way from the tube station, avoiding all the various "charecters" lunging out, the beard-man who stands outside KFC flailing his arms around demanding money and all the rest. Now we have *this* to cap it all off.
> 
> Lets' face it: no neighbourhood should be experience situations like this. This *ain't* normal, folks.


That is over-reaction. As I said earlier in this thread, a similar shooting happened in McDonalds Camberwell, except the guy was shot dead, not a cause to abandon Camberwell though. Shootings happened when I lived in Hackney, no-one talked of upping and leaving. And DB has pointed out that there is no real statistical rise in shootings.

As for street beggars/drunks/crazies, they're part and parcel of most high streets I've lived by.


----------



## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

Loki said:
			
		

> That is over-reaction.


Well, she clearly doesn't think so. She doesn't come a rich area or anything - just one not beset with the exessive issues now affecting this one.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

fanta said:
			
		

> I think the decision to ban him is pathetic Mrs M.


Well he's taken the decision with good grace and is OK about it....if the 'fuck off dwyer' contigent had their way he would have been completely banned a long time ago. We really try our best you know. This is not an easy board to run...


----------



## Loki (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Well, she clearly doesn't think so. She doesn't come a rich area or anything - just one not beset with the exessive issues now affecting this one.


The problem is that the shooting happened in the high street and McDonalds was involved, therefore massive media coverage. The exact same incident on a back street wouldn't have elicited anything like the media coverage or public interest.

And as for "excessive issues now affecting this [area]", it's not gotten any more or less safe, gun crime is about the same, all that's changed is perception in some people.


----------



## pk (Oct 2, 2006)

Yeah.

Fuck off fanta.


----------



## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2006)

I do think people who are dismayed by the presence of beggars in Brixton should stop moaning and fuck off to Clapham or somewhere like it.
We must be living is separate worlds. You get accosted by a beggar. You either give them money, say sorry or ignore them. This terrible experience lasts for a matter of seconds. If just that gets to you, you're probably not cut out for urban living - maybe you should go live in a village somewhere, where nothing ever happens.


----------



## editor (Oct 2, 2006)

If anyone wants to discuss this moderating decision, please start a thread in community/feedback.


----------



## Loki (Oct 2, 2006)

Well, innit. (@ Orang)


----------



## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I do think people who are dismayed by the presence of beggars in Brixton should stop moaning and fuck off to Clapham or somewhere like it.
> We must be living is separate worlds. You get accosted by a beggar. You either give them money, say sorry or ignore them. This terrible experience lasts for a matter of seconds. If just that gets to you, you're probably not cut out for urban living - maybe you should go live in a village somewhere, where nothing ever happens.



Innit. I come to Brixton regularly at all times of day. I go there with my six-year old nephew. The odd beggar/crackhead is tiresome but not the dangerous and traumatic experience some people would have you believe.


----------



## fanta (Oct 2, 2006)

editor said:
			
		

> If anyone wants to discuss this moderating decision, please start a thread in community/feedback.



Ok.


----------



## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> The odd beggar/crackhead is tiresome but not the dangerous and traumatic experience some people would have you believe.


Depends if you find yourself being shouted at, swore at or actually threatened by such charecters just because you try walk past them without opening your wallet. Especially if you find it happening more than once per day. There's a limit to the number of times people can experience that before tolerance levels become depleted.

To Orang Utang: telling people who've lived here for 20+ years and who've gotten a bit fed up with developments that have occured within the last 7 to go an live in clapham or a village is not perticularly helpful, imo. For a start, perhaps they can't actually _afford_ to move anywhere? Why should they _have_ to?


----------



## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Depends if you find yourself being shouted at, swore at or actually threatened by such charecters just because you try walk past them without opening your wallet. Especially if you find it happening more than once per day. There's a limit to the number of times people can experience that before tolerance levels become depleted.
> 
> To Orang Utang: telling people who've lived here for 20+ years and who've gotten a bit fed up with developments that have occured within the last 7 to go an live in clapham or a village is not perticularly helpful, imo. For a start, perhaps they can't actually _afford_ to move anywhere? Why should they _have_ to?



Of course I have but I still find it an annoyance rather than scary. I've been attacked four times on the street/tube (never in Brixton incidentally) so I'm pretty good at telling the difference between empty shouty threats and something more serious.


----------



## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> Of course I have but I still find it an annoyance rather than scary. I've been attacked four times on the street/tube (never in Brixton incidentally) so I'm pretty good at telling the difference between empty shouty threats and something more serious.


Don't you just get tired of both? Have we all really started to forget that we shouldn't _have_ to suffer either verbal or physical assaults while going about our lives?

Maybe it's just me, but I don't think you (or I or anyone) should have to accept this as part of day to day life.


----------



## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Depends if you find yourself being shouted at, swore at or actually threatened by such charecters just because you try walk past them without opening your wallet. Especially if you find it happening more than once per day.




Sometimes, when I read things like this I think I must be living in a different place altogether.  This is so _not_ what I experience in Brixton...


----------



## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Sometimes, when I read things like this I think I must be living in a different place altogether.  This is so _not_ what I experience in Brixton...


Maybe some people get targeted more than others? Dunno why, mind you...


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

I do think that everyone has 'invincible' days & 'vulnerable' days (or maybe it's just me). Sometimes aggressive beggars and drug dealers have no impact whatsoever, other days I feel extremely threatened. I don't believe this is a Brixton phenomenon.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Don't you just get tired of both? Have we all really started to forget that we shouldn't _have_ to suffer either verbal or physical assaults while going about our lives?
> 
> Maybe it's just me, but I don't think you (or I or anyone) should have to accept this as part of day to day life.



I'm not going to come over all Daily Mail about it. I don't much like it but it's one of the downsides of city living - big cities attract drug users and the disenfranchised and I don't think Brixton is really any worse than most other inner city parts of London.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

It's better than some places in some respects, and worse in others. Not all places are alike. Lambeth has more young single people than most boroughs and Lambeth has a much higher proportion of people with mental health problems...can't remember where I read that, and I'm not saying the two are connected either, but I know I lifted that info from some official pdf document (deprivation index maybe?) for a grant application for a voluntary group some time ago.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

I was just talking about this in a thread in the London forum.  I have a few friends who have a very negative idea about Brixton - and sure enough, whenever they come here something does seem to happen to them!  I think that people can sometimes sense unease and just seem to know who to target.  I do always notice when there's some teenage rock band type thing going on at the Academy the beggars have a field day with nice, clean cut young fans... 

I think you're right about having "invincible" and "vulnerable" days.  I always feel that when I'm in Brixton I'm in my comfort zone - whereas if I go to somewhere like Clapham High Street or Putney I do feel distinctly fish out of water like!  It's just a case of getting used to your surroundings really.  I used to feel like that when I first worked in the City - but I soon got used to it.

On the other hand, it might just be that I tend to wander round Brixton looking like I've just been dragged backwards through a hedge - really quite shit - so no one bothers me!


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

No one has ever tried to sell me drugs in Brixton. I've always found that a bit disappointing


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> No one has ever tried to sell me drugs in Brixton. I've always found that a bit disappointing




Yeah... me too!  I very often stand at the no. 2 bus stop outside Woolies and see the guys trying to sell drugs.  NOT ONCE have they bothered trying to sell me drugs...


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

It happens to me all the time. It really bothered me when my son was 11 and 12 and he was accosted all the time as a possible punter.


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## Dubversion (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I do think that everyone has 'invincible' days & 'vulnerable' days (or maybe it's just me). Sometimes aggressive beggars and drug dealers have no impact whatsoever, other days I feel extremely threatened. I don't believe this is a Brixton phenomenon.



I know what you mean, i have the odd - very odd day - where it does get to me. When things feel a bit aggressive at the bus stops, I get begged by some of the more insistent beggars, when I see some heavy cop presence etc. It can really get to me. But this is rare and most of the time I'm glad to live in the area.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

Someone did say I get offered drugs  because I have half closed eyes because of my visual impairment and it makes me look slightly stoned all the time. When I'm tired the eye effect is apparently more pronounced.


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## colacubes (Oct 2, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> Yeah... me too!  I very often stand at the no. 2 bus stop outside Woolies and see the guys trying to sell drugs.  NOT ONCE have they bothered trying to sell me drugs...



I think it could be a boy thing to be honest.  I've hardly ever been offered drugs but memespring gets offered them quite frequently.

Frankly I think it's rather sexist but I've yet to take them to task on it


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> It happens to me all the time. It really bothered me when my son was 11 and 12 and he was accosted all the time as a possible punter.




..dble post


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> It happens to me all the time. It really bothered me when my son was 11 and 12 and he was accosted all the time as a possible punter.




Yeah... that is shit.  Surprised you get offered drugs all the time though... it just goes to show that there's no rhyme or reason!


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> To Orang Utang: telling people who've lived here for 20+ years and who've gotten a bit fed up with developments that have occured within the last 7 to go an live in clapham or a village is not perticularly helpful, imo. For a start, perhaps they can't actually _afford_ to move anywhere? Why should they _have_ to?


It's usually new residents that moan the most, but I take your point.
I've been in Brixton for 5 years (ish) and honestly say, that 'agressive' beggars only momentarily annoy me, say if I've had a bad day at work.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> It happens to me all the time. It really bothered me when my son was 11 and 12 and he was accosted all the time as a possible punter.




Soirry... no idea what's gonig on with my computer!!


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

nipsla said:
			
		

> I think it could be a boy thing to be honest.  I've hardly ever been offered drugs but memespring gets offered them quite frequently.
> 
> Frankly I think it's rather sexist but I've yet to take them to task on it




I had a young teenage friend from a quite notorious Battersea estate.  He looks very "chav"... baseball hat, hoody type style.  He refused to walk down Coldharbour Lane with me once - said he'd get too much hassle.  I remember laughing and saying to him.. "Don't be silly"... fuck me - walked down there with him and it was a completely different experience!


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> I had a young teenage friend from a quite notorious Battersea estate.  He looks very "chav"... baseball hat, hoody type style.  He refused to walk down Coldharbour Lane with me once - said he'd get too much hassle.  I remember laughing and saying to him.. "Don't be silly"... fuck me - walked down there with him and it was a completely different experience!



You and I look like girlguides


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## poster342002 (Oct 2, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> It's usually new residents that moan the most, but I take your point.


This is interesting, because my experience is the opposite: I find it's people who've lived here for many years who are most often saying that things have gotten really out of hand and silly during the last 7 or so.


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## gaijingirl (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> You and I look like girlguides




  

(in that case you must look right now, like a _very_ naughty girlguide!!)


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## Dubversion (Oct 2, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> (in that case you must look right now, like a _very_ naughty girlguide!!)




about standard for the girl guides i met, to be honest


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## ViolentPanda (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Well, thanks to all this crap, my girlfriend is now *exremely* reluctant to come and stay over at my place in Brixton anymore.


I'm really sorry to hear that. 


> Hard to argue with her seeing as she's experienced the "delights" of having to zig-zag her way from the tube station, avoiding all the various "charecters" lunging out, the beard-man who stands outside KFC flailing his arms around demanding money and all the rest. Now we have *this* to cap it all off.
> 
> Lets' face it: no neighbourhood should be experience situations like this. This *ain't* normal, folks.


I agree, it *isn't* normal, and shouldn't be allowed to *become* normal, but sadly Brixton not only has problems related to it's reputation for drugs, but also lies between a nick and a psychiatric hospital, which means you're always going to get these "characters". It used to be the same in the immediate area around Tooting Bec mental hospital; if you lived on the council estate at the top of Franciscan road, or used Tooting Bec tube you were virtually guaranteed an unpleasant encounter at least once a day.
Add to those problems a sub-culture of violence and the only sure way to make things better would be legalisation of drugs and much better psychiatric provision, and expanded drug-user and homeless provision. The first won't happen because it doesn't fit with any of our major political parties' "tough on crime" stance, the second won't happen because funding is too thin on the ground, especially with most PCTs going into the red, and the third, well IIRC there's a bit of a "NIMBY" problem involved. 

Not making excuses for the area, merely stating the facts.


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## Winot (Oct 2, 2006)

poster342002 said:
			
		

> Depends if you find yourself being shouted at, swore at or actually threatened by such charecters just because you try walk past them without opening your wallet. Especially if you find it happening more than once per day. There's a limit to the number of times people can experience that before tolerance levels become depleted.



Personally I find the charity collectors on High Holborn more annoying - the Brixton beggars could learn a few lessons from them.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

I tell over-insistent chuggers I'm an undischarged bankrupt with no bank account...complete lie of course but it shuts them up instantly...


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2006)

I just say no and keep walking, unless it's a pretty girl.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> I just say no and keep walking


Doesn't always work for me. I'm usually wielding bags full of fruit & veg and moving more slowly...little legs, see? You're a big tall bloke which I'm not....


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## Orang Utan (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Doesn't always work for me. I'm usually wielding bags full of fruit & veg and moving more slowly...little legs, see? You're a big tall bloke which I'm not....


Hmm, never seen it that way before.
By the way, when I said stopping for a pretty girl, I was referring to chuggers, not beggars.


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## tarannau (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Doesn't always work for me. I'm usually wielding bags full of fruit & veg and moving more slowly...little legs, see? You're a big tall bloke which I'm not....



Threaten to attack them with a marrow, breadfruit or whatever hefty shaped vegetable you happen to be toting. Works for me, as does the 'can't you fucking tell, I'm seriously laden down here - get out my way' face that I seem to have perfected.

After years dealing with chuggers & Scientologists by my old workplace in Tottenham Court Road, followed by donkey's years in Brixton, maybe I'm just a little desensitised to it all. It's not that much hassle surely?

I think it's worse if you're a woman mind. The whistlers and the '5p' brigade are bearable, but the amount of letches around never ceases to amaze me. Why, for example, some of the butchers think they'll score by shouting 'hey darling' (insert lewd comment here) in their blood-stained stinking white jackets, is beyond me.


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## LDR (Oct 2, 2006)

gaijingirl said:
			
		

> I was just talking about this in a thread in the London forum.  I have a few friends who have a very negative idea about Brixton - and sure enough, whenever they come here something does seem to happen to them!  I think that people can sometimes sense unease and just seem to know who to target.  I do always notice when there's some teenage rock band type thing going on at the Academy the beggars have a field day with nice, clean cut young fans...


I am hassled about 50% of the time I am in Brixton.  However, it’s nothing really worth worrying about.  It's just low-level stuff with dealers following me down the road despite me telling them no, I'm not interested.  They give up after a couple of meters.

I'm more worried by the guys on Coldhabour Lane that ask my Good Lady Wife for a kiss and follow her down the road despite her telling them directly to get fucked.  

I've a number of mates that won't come to Brixton anymore.   They had heard of the bad reputation that Brixton has but managed to put aside their prejudices as I told them the reputation is exaggerated only for one of them have an attempted mugging the first time he came.  I can understand why they won’t come back.  They don’t have anything to do with drug culture at all and are more than a little intimidated seeing drugs let alone someone trying to sell them stuff.

It comes down to the way you carry yourself and if you don't allow yourself to be intimidated and look like a target, you'll be fine most of the time.


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 2, 2006)

tarannau said:
			
		

> Threaten to attack them with a marrow, breadfruit or whatever hefty shaped vegetable you happen to be toting. Works for me, as does the 'can't you fucking tell, I'm seriously laden down here - get out my way' face that I seem to have perfected.......I think it's worse if you're a woman mind......


Ain't that the truth...I've had sometimes to become really aggressive which I really hate doing...one particular beggar, who just doesn't register faces, I don't think, stopped me 3 or 4 times (and I mean prevented me from moving past in an aggressive manner barely short of demanding money with menaces)  in the space of about an hour and I ended up screaming "What part of fuck off do you not understand? Remember my face because if you hassle me one more time I'll rip your bollocks off".


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## goldenecitrone (Oct 2, 2006)

I lived in Brixton for two years and never had any problems at all despite wandering around at all hours in various states of befuddlement. I think being nice to nutters is always the sensible thing. And people were always very nice to me.


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## Cid (Oct 2, 2006)

What I've always found ironic is people who live in places like Camden because they're 'safer' than Brixton. Um... You might wanna check the crime rate figures there guys. I find that in Brixton a lot of crime is restricted to inter-gang stuff that occasionally spills out into everyday life. In contrast Camden/bits of Holloway etc seem much more prone to violence against the general public. Of course this is mostly from personal experience, but I do feel safer in Brixton after hours than I did round Camden (even after living there since I was born). Yes, Lambeth has a fairly high number of crimes, but it's a large (for inner city) and pretty densely populated borough that encompasses some particularly deprived areas (Brixton being really not that bad) so that's somewhat inevitable. Iirc Camden is slightly higher, and westminster is _far_ higher. Waterloo was pretty bad for nutty beggars, a lot more threatening than Brixton where they seem to cluster round the station (Waterloo has the smackhead church) and any nasty experience is over as soon as you leave that bit. Sure it's not exactly pleasant, but it is very unlikely to end in violence. Also Brixton's pickpockets are shite compared to central London.


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## Mr Retro (Oct 2, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I ended up screaming "What part of fuck off do you not understand? Remember my face because if you hassle me one more time I'll rip your bollocks off".



Did he get the hint?


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## Dave Mullen (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> No one has ever tried to sell me drugs in Brixton. I've always found that a bit disappointing



I wouldn't get too disappointed cos what those numpties are selling isn't the real McCoy. I think there was something in the SLP a couple of years ago about someone getting knicked for trying to sell to the Borough Commander and when it was analysed it turned out to be moody. 

He still got banged up.

Getting back to the original subject of the thread does anyone have any ideas what the shooting was about?

Incidentally I haven't witnessed any more wild west brawls in the beehive since Thursday night.


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## trashpony (Oct 2, 2006)

Dave Mullen said:
			
		

> I wouldn't get too disappointed cos what those numpties are selling isn't the real McCoy. I think there was something in the SLP a couple of years ago about someone getting knicked for trying to sell to the Borough Commander and when it was analysed it turned out to be moody.



I'm just disappointed that I clearly look extremely unlikely to ever take illicit substances. I wouldn't actually buy drugs from someone on the street - I like deals to be done indoors if possible


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## aylee (Oct 2, 2006)

Cid said:
			
		

> What I've always found ironic is people who live in places like Camden because they're 'safer' than Brixton.



I agree with this.  I first moved to Brixton 12 years ago and people from Grantham, the town where my parents live (note: NOT my home town!) kept expressing horror at the fact that I was bound to be raped/shot/stabbed/mugged/beaten up at regular intervals.  I always had to point out that I had far more trouble in Grantham, particularly when I was out with mates who were Chinese and half Mauritian.  

Apart from the usual minor hassle from beggars and general nutters, I've never had any trouble in Brixton to speak of.  My girlfriend, who had never lived in South London until she came down to spend a year with me, quickly felt comfortable waiting for a number 3 bus to get home and she never got hassled by blokes when she was alone (and before you ask, she is gorgeous!  )

My early judgments on the Turnpike Lane area where I moved last week are that it has just as many dodgy-looking people hanging around as Brixton.  And just as in Brixton, if you don't stare at them or get in an argument with them, they don't bother you.


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## William of Walworth (Oct 2, 2006)

trashpony said:
			
		

> I'm just disappointed that I clearly look extremely unlikely to ever take illicit substances



I get shed loads of offers -- I wonder why  -- but I tend to say something along the lines of, Nah, I'm cool mate! and MOST of them understand/respect that 



> I wouldn't actually buy drugs from someone on the street - I like deals to be done indoors if possible



Absolutely ...


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## LadyMauritian (Oct 4, 2006)

Having read all these threads, its certainly comforting that most of you share my views, it is extremely frightening to hear of teenagers possessing guns - as a mother of a teenager myself, I am constantly on edge now when he's out with friends, although he lovely and sensible and wouldn't hurt a fly, that's not enough to not get yourself killed in this world!!  Very disappointed with the young shootings in Brixton - I love the place, its always buzzing, but these incidents do let the place down!!


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 4, 2006)

Mr Retro said:
			
		

> Did he get the hint?


 Yes, for quite a while, but he stopped me the other day so I think he either thinks I've forgotten his face or he's forgotten mine again. I just stood and stared at him with the hardest stare I could muster until he stood aside and let me pass.


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## TeeJay (Oct 4, 2006)

ViolentPanda said:
			
		

> I agree, it *isn't* normal, and shouldn't be allowed to *become* normal, but sadly Brixton not only has problems related to it's reputation for drugs, but also lies between a nick and a psychiatric hospital, which means you're always going to get these "characters". It used to be the same in the immediate area around Tooting Bec mental hospital; if you lived on the council estate at the top of Franciscan road, or used Tooting Bec tube you were virtually guaranteed an unpleasant encounter at least once a day.


Do you mean the Maudesley in Camberwell? Why would people from there end up in Brixton rather than Camberwell, Oval, Peckham, Walworth or Herne Hill etc. If you mean the Lambeth Hospital on Landor Road, again - it is right next to Clapham North / Clapham High Street.

I don't really think that that being "near" (not that near IMO) a psychiatric hospital means more people* end up in Brixton - if anything it is that people are allowed to get on and do what they want there, there is more going on and a better lay out (the indoor and outdoor markets, arches, alleyway, back roads and pedestrianised areas etc) and it is simply a better and more interesting and profitiable place for people to hang out. There is also a connection between chaotic drug use and poor mental health, and this would hold true even if the nearest psychiatric hospital was a few more miles away IMO.

* mentally unwell/mad/psychiatric patients etc...


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## Mrs Magpie (Oct 4, 2006)

Arrests have been made....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5408046.stm


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## editor (Oct 4, 2006)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> Arrests have been made....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/5408046.stm


Let's hope they've got/get the fucker.


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## Loki (Oct 4, 2006)

Orang Utan said:
			
		

> By the way, when I said stopping for a pretty girl, I was referring to chuggers, not beggars.


"Chugger"... another one I've had to look up ("charity mugger")


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