# English Democrats Party to stand in Welsh Assembly elections



## lewislewis (Apr 1, 2007)

Bizarrely, the English Democrats are having candidates in Newport East, Newport West and Monmouth in the election, campaigning on the single issue that there should be a referendum to return historical Monmouthshire (an entity which I presume includes Newport due to their candidates there?), to England.

They are calling for a "democratic and open debate about the future of Monmouth".

Can you really imagine the people of Newport deciding they're not part of Wales?!

This all seems harmless and will be a bit of a laugh, the EDP is pretty right-wing and stupid but there's no harm in them standing, twp buggers.


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## biff curtains (Apr 1, 2007)

That's really funny.  Dicks!


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## Gavin Bl (Apr 2, 2007)

maybe they are (clumsily) trying to make a point - West Lothian question, and all that.

Either that, or they are a load of Saes nutters!


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## Django's dad (Apr 2, 2007)

I heard that Garry Bushell is standing in Monmouth.

Standing on a platform of Knotted hankies & fish & chips apparently. 

Time he went home I thinks !!


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## Karac (Apr 2, 2007)

Heres the English Democratic Partys treatise on Monmouth by a certain Elwin Jones-great name for an English nationalist


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 3, 2007)

There is nothing bizaare about the English Democrats standing in Monmouthshire and offering the people there a referendum on their national status.

What was bizaare (and underhand) was how Monmouthshire was moved from England to Wales. No Monmouthshire MP was involved with the move and the people of Monmouthshire were never even informed let alone consulted on the change. For change it was, which is why the "debate" (all of 2 minutes)took place in a virtually empty House of Commons at 11.55pm.

Anyway the English Democrats believe in democracy (now considered a "right wing" philosophy apparently) and referenda. This is exactly why Monmouthshire was chosen as a place to broadcast our policies.

At least the matter will be resolved if the English Democrats get their way and not be suppressed as it has been until now.

When speaking to a researcher on BBC Wales yesterday, I explained how the English Democrats want a federal United Kingdom with each consituent nation (yes England is a nation) having its own devolved parliament with fiscal powers. "Not unlike Plaid Cymru" was the response. However, Plaid Cymru is not described as right wing as far as I am aware.

The difference between Plaid and ourselves is that we would offer the English electorate (and that will probably include the old county of Monmouthshire) a referendum on England's EU membership. Plaid Cymru would offer no such thing to Wales.

Unlike self-styled Europhiles, we would abide by the will of the English people expressed in all referenda. Not for nothing has the EU become known as the EUSSR. Its mantra has become "this is going to happen whether you like it or not".

Well we intend to change that oppressive stance.

We are not only standing for a referendum on Monmouthshire's status, but also for local democracy as a principle, which no other part is. In England regions have been foisted upon us (unelected) and unitary authorities are being imposed with no consultation of the electorate.

Well we intend to change that too.

Welshman the Rt Hon John Prescott siad "there is no such nationality as English as laid down by various Acts of Parliament and Accession".

Well we'll see about that.

The late Robin Cook (a Scot) said on BBC Radio " England is not a nation it is just a collection of regions".

Well we'll see about that.

Far from being right wing (whatever that means) we are the most democratic party in the UK.

Stephen Gash
Welsh Assembly Candidate


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## Brockway (Apr 3, 2007)

"Welshman the Rt Hon John Prescott siad "there is no such nationality as English as laid down by various Acts of Parliament and Accession"."

There is no such nationality as English. Most of you are of Teutonic descent.

It's quite amusing that you are upset about what you perceive to be a territorial wrong against Ingurland but at the same time you are conveniently forgetting that Ingurland has colonised Wales. If you think Monmouth should go back to England then we have every right to suggest that you fuck off back to Germany. Simple innit.


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## llantwit (Apr 3, 2007)

Tosser.


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 3, 2007)

The point is we are standing on a democracy ticket. Whatever the history is, none of it was based on democracy and least of all with the consent of the people.
The May elections are likely to have a comparatively low turnout. All the other parties wring their hands about it, but are perfectly happy to talk about "victories" after the elections where only 35% of the electorate voted.
What was the actual percentage of the electorate which voted for the Welsh Assembly? It was even lower in Monmouthshire.
Only 44% of Scots voted for their parliament.
People are fed up with it and at least we are attempting to do something about it.
We don't deserve to be labelled as right wing for what we are attempting, but hey! That's politics in Britain these days.


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## zog (Apr 3, 2007)

ha ha

I thought Stephen Gash was a made up name until I checked. Does taunting at school turn you into a nationalist nutter?

I heard Plaid want to anex Chester n all. next stop Bristol. 

I can't see the people of Monmouth rushing to go back to England, not with free prescriptions and WAG grants. I some how think you aint gonna do too well.


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## rhys gethin (Apr 3, 2007)

'What was bizaare (and underhand) was how Monmouthshire was moved from England to Wales.'

The Annexation of 1536 made all of Cymru part of England, and the only difference between Gwent and the rest was that it was put in a different court circuit.   Other parts, added to existing English counties, are still not represented in the Assembly.   I wish people could be persuaded to read some history before they expose their ignorance in public.


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## Belushi (Apr 3, 2007)

I'd like to have Ludlow back, tis lovely.

Do you think the Saes will swap it for Newport?


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## lewislewis (Apr 3, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> There is nothing bizaare about the English Democrats standing in Monmouthshire and offering the people there a referendum on their national status.
> 
> What was bizaare (and underhand) was how Monmouthshire was moved from England to Wales. No Monmouthshire MP was involved with the move and the people of Monmouthshire were never even informed let alone consulted on the change. For change it was, which is why the "debate" (all of 2 minutes)took place in a virtually empty House of Commons at 11.55pm.
> 
> ...



Oi Gash

It isn't really relevant where Cook, Prescott were born. Ethnicity, and indeed history also aren't relevant in the context you're standing in the Assembly on. The Assembly is the government of Wales, and you are an explicitly English party. Of course there is nothing stopping you from standing, you are legal, and aren't hateful, so I am not calling for you not to stand.
It's clear that you are wasting your £150 deposit by standing. Do you honestly think that the people of Newport consider themselves part of England? Have you ever been to Newport? Are you from Wales?

I described you as a right-wing party because you do not have a progressive social agenda or any policies as such. Do you want to take parts of Wales out of the EU? That would destroy the economies of those areas.
Plaid is not considered a right-wing party because they have centre-left policies. 
You bring up ethnicity, the English, alot, which I worry about because you seek to divide Wales by taking our English citizens of Wales (in Monmouthshire) out of our country.
We should also test the waters here...what do you think about immigration?

I would not oppose a referendum either, i'm all for self-determination, but at the moment there is no sufficient support for a referendum whatsoever, and probably never will be.


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## llantwit (Apr 3, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Oi Gash
> ... what do you think about immigration?


Oddly enough, that's what I was about to ask.


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## lewislewis (Apr 3, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Oddly enough, that's what I was about to ask.



Maybe he thinks it's a load of stephen gash


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## Gavin Bl (Apr 3, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> . Not for nothing has the EU become known as the EUSSR.



Now, I have my criticisms of the EU, insisting on kilos rather than lbs was unneccessary for example - but comparing them to a police state that killed millions of people is exactly how people might get the impression that you are a tad right wing.

I have no problem with you standing, not that you need my permission, its just that you'll have to excuse those Welsh people who are somewhat unimpressed that apparently England is suffering at the hands of these dreadful Celts, when of course, the English-Welsh relationship has always been one of absolute equals...it sticks in the craw just a bit, that after a few years of a Welsh Assembly, suddenly its all unequal and poor old England.


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## Jonny Elvis III (Apr 3, 2007)

Gash haha and don't you talk it.

let's go back a bit further and throw all the Anglo Saxons out of this Island shall we. FFS grow up you sad get and get a life


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

It's always refreshing to have a joke candidate though isn't it, like the Monster Raving Looney's, Captain Beany, UKIP etc.


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Well so far I've received a few taunts about my name and a dodgy history lesson.
Unsurprising really as this is about the level of political debate the UK has descended to.
However, to return to what the English Democrats Party is all about I will reiterate that we would campaign for Monmouthshire to have a referendum on its status. Sould an English Democrats candidate be voted into the Welsh Assembly we would consider this mandate enough for such a referendum.
We would also campaign for a referendum to be held in Wales on the EU constitution.
Unlike French politicians we would stand by the results of such referenda.
We would support Wales having a full parliament not a Monster Raving Looney yacking shop it currently has.
We would fight for full fiscal powers for Wales in a federal UK. 
We would campaign for a similar parliament for England and fewer UK politicians.


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

We would then demand a UK wide referendum on EU membership


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

You welshies really get your knickers in a twist don't you? If the man wants to stand for election then so be it. If you don't agree with his version of history, debate it. If you want to know his other policies, ask him.

The chips on your shoulders don't seem to let you get beyond playground taunting, shrill ranting and dodgy statements about racial heritage.


Just to make it clear I couldn't give a flying fuck if the whole of Monmouthshire fell into the sea.


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I described you as a right-wing party because you do not have a progressive social agenda or any policies as such. Do you want to take parts of Wales out of the EU?


We have policies to protect industry and believe in international reciprocation. In other words we do not agree, for example, that countries disallowing their own industry to be taken over should be allowed to take over our companies (as is the case with Switzerland for example). We would hope to extend this into other areas, besides business. Strategic industries would be protected as they are in the USA and France, but currently not so in the UK (well at least not outside a narrow band of defence manufacturing for example).

We want elected public officers where practicably possible. These are progressive policies.



> You bring up ethnicity, the English, alot, which I worry about because you seek to divide Wales by taking our English citizens of Wales (in Monmouthshire) out of our country.


What concerns us is that the English identity is uniquely being abolished as well as England itself. Only in English schools is "Britishness" to be rammed down chidrens' throats. This was admitted on TV by Harriet Harman and Geoff Hoon. So naturally Englishness is uppermost in our thoughts. You describe it as an ethnicity, we prefer both a civic and ethnic English identity.
I would sooner have an Englishman like former England footballer Ian Wright standing shoulder to shoulder with me, than fellow "Brit" Gordon Brown bagpiping his way to Westminster to vote in measures that deny lifesaving medicines to patients in England. With friends like that, who needs enemies?


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

I think, Stephen, that you are a suspect group, with _some_ reasonable propositions. 

However my suspicion is greater heightened by your own election campaign which is not only certain to be a losing one, but is deliberately targetted to be a provocative one.

Also you bandy around concepts of nationhood without any paritcularly sophisticated discussion about such things. What is Englishness? What would be your ideal England? What would you say about Cornish Nationalism for example?


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Immigration. Our policy is a points system similar to those in Canada and Australia. 
As we favour a move out of the EU into EFTA (subject to the English electorate's approval) the open door policy for EU members would become defunct.
Where immigrants were required to fill posts then obviously they would be welcomed. This would mean a return to the sensible policies of pre-EU immigration.
FYI I voted to remain in the European Common Market in the only referendum we have had on what became the EU. The only other political party I have been a member of is the Social Democrats Party. I voted against merger with the Liberals, because in my experience self-styled liberals have a list as long as your arm of all the things they wish to ban.
Top of the banning list is free speech. Next on the list is democracy.
The SDP would have been a real force now in my opinion if it had held its nerve. Instead it became a very ordinary party which has gained the reputation among other parties, for applying the dirtiest electoral tactics. Anybody remember the bogus Plaid Cymru website which appeared during the 2001 elections campaign? Now which party put up that site? Anybody remember?


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> What concerns us is that the English identity is uniquely being abolished as well as England itself. Only in English schools is "Britishness" to be rammed down chidrens' throats.


What does this 'ramming' actually amount to? Could you give some concrete (ie. non-tabloid headline) examples?


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Immigration. Our policy is a points system similar to those in Canada and Australia.


You are going to be fairly unpopular in the rural areas as they rely on cheap migrant labour for agricultural work. Are you in favour of price rises for groceries?


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I think, Stephen, that you are a suspect group, with _some_ reasonable propositions.
> 
> However my suspicion is greater heightened by your own election campaign which is not only certain to be a losing one, but is deliberately targetted to be a provocative one.
> 
> Also you bandy around concepts of nationhood without any paritcularly sophisticated discussion about such things. What is Englishness? What would be your ideal England? What would you say about Cornish Nationalism for example?


Only English people are asked to define their nationality.
Cornwall? Read our manifesto
http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/manifesto.php
It is a pdf doc

We would give Cornwall greater autonomy. However, as we would re-establish the old county borders (before Heath arrogantly tore our 1000 year-old heritage apart) and return local democracy to where it belongs, the counties, greater autonomy would be achieved for all counties anyway.

We would promote counties working together for whatever projects were relevant to the respective counties. For example coastal erosion is a major problem down the east coast of England, so Northumbeland, durham, Yorkshire, Lincolnshire, Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Kent would devise a strategy to combat this. Inland counties would have no interest in cosstal erosion. This is one of the miriad of reasons we dislike regions.
However, if certain counties wished to form a region, the electorate would decide the matter, as we have a policy of referenda on constitutional changes.


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Will counties have seperate tax raising powers?


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2007)

> Cornwall? Read our manifesto
> http://www.englishdemocrats.org.uk/manifesto.php
> It is a pdf doc
> 
> We would give Cornwall greater autonomy. However, as we would re-establish the old county borders (before Heath arrogantly tore our 1000 year-old heritage apart) and return local democracy to where it belongs, the counties, greater autonomy would be achieved for all counties anyway.



Thats not really answering the question is it?

What do you say about Cornish *Nationalism?*


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> You are going to be fairly unpopular in the rural areas as they rely on cheap migrant labour for agricultural work. Are you in favour of price rises for groceries?


Like the NHS needs cheap nurses? The whole labour market is a mess. We import nurses from places like the Phillipines yet 3600 British trained nurses leave every year to go to Australia. Why bother with the expense of training them?
Students having to pay their top-up fees used to work in agricultural jobs, but have been ousted by cheap labour, so many are on the dole for the summer (a cost deflected from the food bill to taxes).
Half of London's homeless are reportedly from Eastern Europe, what about that cost? Immigrant workers are living many to a house, not reflected in the council tax for that house. What is the cost for that? It is not as simple as saying "cheap food". The social costs and economic costs rarely enter the equation.
The trouble is we have allowed sensible discussion to be dissipated and replaced by a polarised bellowing match.
I find it bemusing that CBI spokespersons say the economy would collapse without immigrants undercutting mortgage payers in England. They say the market determines workers' wages. Curiously, the same market forces drive up directors' pay. Higher pay brings higher quality directors if you believe directors.
Maybe we could do with a few Polish directors (or Chinese) at a quarter of the cost. And for that matter, why not a few Czech MPs at a fifth of the price?


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

I think a move to create greater local democracy is a great thing. What if northern county decides it wants to be a part of the EU? Or Shropshire decides it wants to be a part of Wales? How fixed is your notion of England and it's borders?


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## liampreston (Apr 4, 2007)

The Annexation of 1536 made all of Cymru part of England, and the only difference between Gwent and the rest was that it was put in a different court circuit. Other parts, added to existing English counties, are still not represented in the Assembly. I wish people could be persuaded to read some history before they expose their ignorance in public.


This doesn't read like a dodgy history lesson to me, Stephen


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Anyway gotta go


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2007)

> Students having to pay their top-up fees used to work in agricultural jobs, but have been ousted by cheap labour, so many are on the dole for the summer (a cost deflected from the food bill to taxes).



You haven't been able to sign on in the summer as a student since the early 1980s as far as I'm aware.

Top-Up fees were introduced last year.


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Like the NHS needs cheap nurses? The whole labour market is a mess. We import nurses from places like the Phillipines yet 3600 British trained nurses leave every year to go to Australia. Why bother with the expense of training them?



Again a good point and an important issue. So would you propose signficant  increases in nurses wages? And how would you pay for such increases?



> Students having to pay their top-up fees used to work in agricultural jobs, but have been ousted by cheap labour, so many are on the dole for the summer (a cost deflected from the food bill to taxes).



Students can't claim benefits over the summer months I'm afraid. Would you propose allowing them to if there was a dip in the agricultural sector - the sector you would encourage them to work in?



> Half of London's homeless are reportedly from Eastern Europe, what about that cost? Immigrant workers are living many to a house, not reflected in the council tax for that house. What is the cost for that? It is not as simple as saying "cheap food". The social costs and economic costs rarely enter the equation.
> The trouble is we have allowed sensible discussion to be dissipated and replaced by a polarised bellowing match.


Now this is where the problem lies Stephen. Half of London's homeless are _reportedly_ from Eastern Europe. Which report? 

The cost of people living in a house is insignificant on a national scale. We could perhaps re-jig the entire tax structure in order to tax immigrants in crowded houses, but I doubt if it would reduce anyone's tax bill by even a pound. And such a restructure would be extremely expensive to implement.

The polarised bellowing you refer to, alas, seems something you are regrettably party to. You are waving ill-defined, but legitimate problems and then proclaiming even more ill-defined solutions to them. You are doing the politician's trick of telling us about a problem that none would deny, and then claiming that you therefore have the solution that none would deny.


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## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

A quick reply then I've really got to be off

http://www.24dash.com/news/1/12523/index.htm

Now the obvious response will be to shoot the messenger, but that doesn't help. A sensible immigration policy should be drawn up on need, not on crude market forces. 

On the question of England's borders, we naturally will retain the integrity of England and will insist on maritime borders being reassigned according to international law. Anything Gordon Brown negotiates on England's behalf will be reviewed, more than likely.

Our goal is a federal UK with full national parliaments. Once achieved anything after is a matter for England. 

The questions about Cornwall and other English counties applies equally to other parts of the UK, most notably the Shetland Islands, here all the oil is. So Alex Salmond had better think twice before coming down to Cornwall to talk about its status within England if he doesn't want reciprocal questions asked about the Shetlands. well, that's only fair isn't it?

The English were never asked about devolution. We never let the screaming genie out of the bottle. The dangers of devolution were made clear before Scotland's referendum. Yes we all now have to live with the consequences.

Labour and the Lib Dems could not have handled devolution worse if they had tried. Prescott, fool that he is, assumed we would vote for the destruction of England. Then for Labour to tell us we don't exist and England is not a nation was like a red rag to a bull.

The Liberal Democrats were as bad. Charles Kennedy to Scottish Liberal Democrats said "in England devolution is moving at such a pace that it is bringing into question the very existence of England itself". This may not be verbatum but its meaning is crystal clear.

In the relatively short time I've been actively campaigning for an English Parliament, I've seen calls for England's independence rise from being next to nothing, to approaching half. And still Labour and the Lib Dems say everything is OK.

The Tories started it all in the 70s and also foisted regions on us. 

Anyway, I really do have to go.


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2007)

> On the question of England's borders, we naturally will retain the integrity of England





> The questions about Cornwall and other English counties applies equally to other parts of the UK,



So if Cornwall were ever to vote to secede from England youd support their right in doing so?


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2007)

> A quick reply then I've really got to be off
> 
> http://www.24dash.com/news/1/12523/index.htm
> 
> Now the obvious response will be to shoot the messenger, but that doesn't help. A sensible immigration policy should be drawn up on need, not on crude market forces.



You do realise that refers Westminster and not London?


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Immigration. Our policy is a points system similar to those in Canada and Australia.
> As we favour a move out of the EU into EFTA (subject to the English electorate's approval) the open door policy for EU members would become defunct.
> Where immigrants were required to fill posts then obviously they would be welcomed. This would mean a return to the sensible policies of pre-EU immigration.
> FYI I voted to remain in the European Common Market in the only referendum we have had on what became the EU. The only other political party I have been a member of is the Social Democrats Party. I voted against merger with the Liberals, because in my experience self-styled liberals have a list as long as your arm of all the things they wish to ban.
> ...



I wouldn't take the jokes about your name seriously at all, in posting on this forum just realise it can be a bit silly, urban75 isn't a serious political website it's more of a cultural site, but there is good debate here if you look for it.

Ok so I don't think you're loons or right-wing nutjobs, in fact your ideas about fiscal powers for Wales, elected public officers, and promoting national identities instead of the phantom 'British' identity, are valid and progressive to an extent.
On Europe we clearly disagree, and also on immigration. I don't think you're a suspect group or racist in that respect but I do think you're on the right, although some of your propositions are reasonable.

Then again, England does stray to the right whereas Wales strays to the left, so maybe it is a legitimate expression of Englishness that England's nationalist party opposes the EU ? 
A key difference between your stance and Plaid Cymru's is that the EDP is the English party, representing the English identity only, whereas Plaid is not the Party of the Welsh but the party of Wales, representing all of the identities within Wales (as well as protecting the original Welsh culture and language etc). Maybe you would broaden your appeal if you embraced all of the cultures in England (even if they weren't born there) and united them underneath that banner?

But Stephen mate I still think the Monmouth stuff is a load bollocks   spend those election resources in England instead. But we can't ban you so have a nice election, you'll almost certainly lose your deposits.

I dare you to try and canvass Newport in the election, and tell the people on the doorstep that you want Newport to become part of England. This really is an insane venture! Have you ever been to Newport/Casnewydd? 

Your standing in Wales means people in Wales won't take you seriously, and will even take a dislike to you. 
It's sad that this will do serious damage to your party's credibility, when England needs a proper independent party.


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

There is also a huge contradiction here that Stephen's England (not apparently representative to the England envisioned in the mainstream) wishes to take territory off other countries like Wales and Scotland. You don't see the nationalist movements in Wales and Scotland ever demanding territory. The EDP seems to encompass outward nationalism, probably as a legacy of the British Empire that England ran. As much as i'd love to see a progressive national party in England, the EDP isn't it, it is a parochial and right-wing organisation that is missing out on a huge opportunity.

Really, Wales HAS to advance to full powers for our Assembly before we get even further drawn into the shambles of Britain.


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Our goal is a federal UK with full national parliaments. Once achieved anything after is a matter for England.


That far I would agree on. I think it is a sound principle. But then you charge off the point here. Stick to a principle rather than hunting the myriad degrees of hypocracy you are bound to find in other politicians:



> The questions about Cornwall and other English counties applies equally to other parts of the UK, most notably the Shetland Islands, here all the oil is. So Alex Salmond had better think twice before coming down to Cornwall to talk about its status within England if he doesn't want reciprocal questions asked about the Shetlands. well, that's only fair isn't it?



If you are in favour of regional self determination, then say so and Cornwall and Shetland can have their vote. If you are against it, then fair enough, but don't confuse things by bringing Alex Salmond's too-ing and fro-ing into it. 



> The English were never asked about devolution. We never let the screaming genie out of the bottle... Yes we all now have to live with the consequences.



This comment I find very odd. It sounds as if the notion of an English parliament and a set of regional assemblies is not based on any principle but a petulant response to Welsh and Scottish Devolution. If you believe in devolution and seperate parliaments, then be in favour of it. Why are you trying to propose it on the back of some imagined attack on Englishness? Such a line will doubtless sell well on the front of the Mail, but it is intellectually vapid.

Surely when Charles Kennedy said "in England devolution is moving at such a pace that it is bringing into question the very existence of England itself" what he would mean was that England would now have to justify itself as an independent nation without Scotland, Wales, NI and maybe Cornwall. Surely that's what you want? You should be shaking the man's hand.

You see Englishness and England as a thing under siege, something diminishing that needs to be defended. You see an English Parliament as spiteful revenge against devolution, not as a positive opportunity. I get the impression you would be happier with the United Kingdom as it was in 1960. 

It's the wrong mindset. There is no greater political and intellectual dead-end than hankering after the past or clinging on to some half-remembered idea that never really was. Put forward a positive agenda. See an English Parliament as something you actually believe in, because from where I am sitting it seems that I am more convinced of it than you and you are standing for election under that banner.


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

And of course restricting your candidates to England would be a big bonus


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> And of course restricting your candidates to England would be a big bonus


Yeah exactly. I mean the sensible thing is to get elected in England, then simply overun Wales and take what you want


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Yeah exactly. I mean the sensible thing is to get elected in England, then simply overun Wales and take what you want



Like the good old days where England conquered territory from Wales...oh wait a minute that's what Stephen Gash wants !


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

I believe there is nothing more artificial and anhistorical than attempting to revert to some old imagined border. The point in history one chooses for such a border says everything about your current intents and principles and has zeor historical significance.


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## lewislewis (Apr 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I believe there is nothing more artificial and anhistorical than attempting to revert to some old imagined border. The point in history one chooses for such a border says everything about your current intents and principles and has zeor historical significance.



Exactly  , the border existing nowadays should be based on people's consciousness, rather than some historical anomalies. If we're rearranging the UK based on history then crikey, we've got some work to do. For starters, didn't all of Ynys Prydain belong to the Welsh? 

If the people of Newport and Monmouthshire consider themselves part of Wales (which they do), why should they join England.

I bet the EDP candidates aren't from Wales and are from the north of England or somewhere. The only real explanation for this is that they have never visited Newport in their lives. It's not even as if Newport is heavily 'anglicised', it is a Welsh city through and through, about 13% of Newport's folk even speak Welsh. Do they not know about Caerleon? Newport's contribution to Welsh industry? The GLC? Nathan Blake? St. Cadoc?The poet W.H Davies of Pillgwenlly? I am convinced Stephen Gash has never been to Newport and knows nothing of it's history. What conceivable grounds are there to claim Newport is English?!


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## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Yeah you can keep Newport - it's a dump. Isn't it the post pub violence capital of the UK? 

Some bits of Monmouthshire are quite pretty though.


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## Belushi (Apr 4, 2007)

> Do they not know about Caerleon? Newport's contribution to Welsh industry? The GLC? Nathan Blake? St. Cadoc?The poet W.H Davies of Pillgwenlly?



John Frost & the Newport Uprising!


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## Ben Bore (Apr 4, 2007)

I don't know if the English Democrats have stood in England at any level yet, but standing in Wales is just going to provide ammunition to those who want to mock it (rightly or wrongly)

I have sympathy with English nationalists and enjoy reading the posts (if not the comments) on the Campaign for an English Parliament blog (unrelated to the EDP).  

It is a bit nuts that Scotland, Wales and England have three different levels of governments within one state.   But as far as I know, the call for a proper English parliament only goes back a few years (after Welsh and Scottish devolution), while there have been calls for Welsh/Scottish Parliaments since the end of the 19th century.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Personally I think we have an English Parliament. What we need to do is detatch it from Wales and Scotland and create a seperate body which co-ordinates between the countries.

And get rid of all the other silly regional nonsense that has been created.


----------



## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> What does this 'ramming' actually amount to? Could you give some concrete (ie. non-tabloid headline) examples?


Geoff Hoon said that Englishness could perhaps be taught in English schools during the World Cup. He agreed that Britishness would only be taught in English schools.
That's ramming Britishness down English children's necks as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Stephen Gash (Apr 4, 2007)

Here's the Questiontime debate about "Britishness" starts about 39.15 mins in and the point about "Britishness" being taught only in English schools at 45.45 mins

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6300000/newsid_6301700/6301717.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm


----------



## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Geoff Hoon said that Englishness could perhaps be taught in English schools during the World Cup. He agreed that Britishness would only be taught in English schools.
> That's ramming Britishness down English children's necks as far as I'm concerned.


Hardly comes close to qualifying as a 'ramming'. Sounds like the Government of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland don't feel that they have any place to sanction or direct any notion of English nationalism (be it a benign form or otherwise).

I can't see why you would expect them to to be honest. Obviously the state is going to promote some notion of state unity, rather than the culture of one region of that state.

If the regions, or countries of the union did formally detatch then it would be fair enough, until they do, it would probably be, at best, uncouth, at worst unconstitutional.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 4, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Here's the Questiontime debate about "Britishness" starts about 39.15 mins in and the point about "Britishness" being taught only in English schools at 45.45 mins
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/newsid_6300000/newsid_6301700/6301717.stm?bw=bb&mp=wm



He skirted the issue, hardly much to extrapolate on.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 4, 2007)

a fucking ukip towable billboard was outside county hall in Cardiff today giving it 'vote ukip and abolish the Welsh assembly'   odious cunts


----------



## Karen Eliot (Apr 4, 2007)

Do you not believe in democracy craig? Would you remove their right to pay for this billboard?


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

less of the craig please.

where did i say i want to remove their democraatic right?  
jus that they're odious cunts, which they are no?


----------



## Karen Eliot (Apr 5, 2007)

Why didn't you do something craig? What did you do?


----------



## Idaho (Apr 5, 2007)

ddraig said:
			
		

> a fucking ukip towable billboard was outside county hall in Cardiff today giving it 'vote ukip and abolish the Welsh assembly'   odious cunts


 Why so cross about it? It's called democracy. A strange system where people are actually allowed to have opposing views believe it or not.


----------



## Brockway (Apr 5, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Why so cross about it? It's called democracy. A strange system where people are actually allowed to have opposing views believe it or not.



Craig   can be cross about whatever he chooses. If I saw the BNP holding a demo, for instance, I'd be miffed - wouldn't you? Even if I recognised their right to do so.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 5, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Craig   can be cross about whatever he chooses. If I saw the BNP holding a demo, for instance, I'd be miffed - wouldn't you? Even if I recognised their right to do so.


The BNP encourage violence and hatred. The UKIP are a bunch of deluded old farts who want to change the apparatus of government. They aren't hurting anyone.

If Craig  thinks support for a democratic Welsh Assembly is so fragile that it needs to be so aggressively defended, then perhaps he should rethink the very notion of it being democratic.


----------



## Brockway (Apr 5, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> If Craig  thinks support for a democratic Welsh Assembly is so fragile that it needs to be so aggressively defended, then perhaps he should rethink the very notion of it being democratic.



I think you're putting thoughts into Craig's head there. He hasn't expressed any opinion about the supposed fragility of the Welsh Assembly. You're making an assumption - that's unfair on Craig.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 5, 2007)

((((Craig))))

He hasn't directly. But he got pretty damn cross at the sight of a UKIP billboard. Why worry? UKIP have as much chance of success in Wales as I do.


----------



## Brockway (Apr 5, 2007)

Maybe it was blocking his view of Cardiff Bay. I'd be annoyed too if I couldn't see the Billy Banks in their full glory.


----------



## lewislewis (Apr 5, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Maybe it was blocking his view of Cardiff Bay. I'd be annoyed too if I couldn't see the Billy Banks in their full glory.



Soon to be knocked down and replaced with a 'Penarth Heights' development


----------



## llantwit (Apr 5, 2007)

Karen Eliot said:
			
		

> Do you not believe in democracy craig? Would you remove their right to pay for this billboard?


What's someone's right to advertise on a huge billboard got to do with democracy. Democracy's about equal participation, not unequal participation based on the ability to stump up a bunch of cash for an advertising hoarding.
And anyway, Craig didn't say anything about their 'right' to air their views - he merely expressed an opposing view, so don't get yer knickers in a twist.
Go Craig!


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

oi u buggers! 
no real names inint!


----------



## zog (Apr 5, 2007)

Stop yer moanin Craig


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> Stop yer moanin Craig


you as well  

wots on dis weekend then groover?
<cough>portia alledges multi</cough> hmmm


----------



## munkeeunit (Apr 5, 2007)

The English are having a hard enough time convincing the English to give a toss about being English, so why are they bothering Newport?

Still, they might just focus all their energies on getting Newport 'back', only to find that while their attention is turned, Cornwall goes independent, Bristol declares itself a Celtic City, and the rest of England turns mysteriously French.

Newport will be all they have left, before shortly being caste into the Bristol Channel (which will now be the National Territorial waters of Bristol, leading them all to be promptly arrested, snuffing out the remnants of England once and for all).


----------



## FaradayCaged (Apr 5, 2007)

being newport born and raised, and one very patriotic welsh guy, i would jump off the nearest bypass if newport became part of england......


----------



## Karac (Apr 5, 2007)

munkeeunit said:
			
		

> The English are having a hard enough time convincing the English to give a toss about being English, so why are they bothering Newport?


Good point-anyone who thinks Newport is in England needs their head felt


----------



## Karen Eliot (Apr 5, 2007)

Craig goes very quiet all of a sudden.


----------



## zog (Apr 5, 2007)

ddraig said:
			
		

> you as well
> 
> wots on dis weekend then groover?
> <cough>portia alledges multi</cough> hmmm




With child at mo. if I'm free I'm thinking of going over brizzle for fruity antics. someone from nrk records headlining.

Will plant the welsh flag when I'm over the border. part from that aint been paying much attention. 

Deffo childless from saturday on so a multi event sounds up my street.


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

Karen Eliot said:
			
		

> Craig goes very quiet all of a sudden.


sorry but like what are you on about please?


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> With child at mo. if I'm free I'm thinking of going over brizzle for fruity antics. someone from nrk records headlining.
> 
> Will plant the welsh flag when I'm over the border. part from that aint been paying much attention.
> 
> Deffo childless from saturday on so a multi event sounds up my street.


ok, have a good one mate


----------



## Karen Eliot (Apr 5, 2007)

I was talking about your sullen defiance of the UKIP craig. What did you actually do after getting so spectacularly wound up?


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

Karen Eliot said:
			
		

> I was talking about your sullen defiance of the UKIP craig. What did you actually do after getting so spectacularly wound up?



just frothed at the mouth a bit and carried on eating my ciabatta pannini with sunblush tomatoes in what the fudge else should i do?


----------



## ddraig (Apr 5, 2007)

anyway, i ain't craig ok fair dinkum!!11!!11!1!!!1!!!!!!!11!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Karen Eliot (Apr 5, 2007)

What *should* you do craig?


----------



## llantwit (Apr 7, 2007)

Karen Eliot said:
			
		

> What *should* you do craig?


You are one weird fish Eliot Karen. 
Stop victimising Craig.


----------



## biff curtains (Apr 8, 2007)

What is the ED position on trade unions and workers rights?


----------



## llantwit (Apr 8, 2007)

biff curtains said:
			
		

> What is the ED position on trade unions and workers rights?


I guess that would depend whether they were English trade unions or English workers, wouldn't it?


----------



## pembrokestephen (Apr 10, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> You welshies really get your knickers in a twist don't you? If the man wants to stand for election then so be it. If you don't agree with his version of history, debate it. If you want to know his other policies, ask him.


Easy, tiger. I don't think he's getting any harder a ride than any other apparently (though somewhat coyly) anti-EU nationalist stylee politico would be getting on here.

And, unless you have some grasp of Welsh cultural issues (I've been here 2 years, and I might claim only to have the slightest hint of them), you're really in no position to cast aspersions on the way Welsh people choose to express their national pride. Sod knows they waited long enough for it, and the days of kids being beaten in school for the crime of speaking Welsh are still in living memory for some of them.


----------



## ska invita (Apr 10, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> Our goal is a federal UK with full national parliaments. Once achieved anything after is a matter for England.



To be honest, I couldnt care less what else the EDP stands for - i support this vision of the UK. The EDP will never win elections out right, but may succeed in making this a reality. Once it happens they will fade into obscurity...

 Small, localised government is a step in the right direction - Proudhon would be proud.

Who knows in reality what kind of a future it would really bring, but one thing is for certain, Westminster is hugely threatened by it. Good.

SNP are looking possible winners in May - this issue isnt going away.

EDIT: It's possible to not be a nationalist and support this federal vision - the EDP are nationalists and show signs of right-wing thinking on other issues - that doesn't mean that a federal system is of itself nationalist - it is however certainly anti-state.

EDIT 2: That whole bit about Monmouthshire is clearly nationalist shit stirring by the EDP though - although its fair enough to have a referendum.


----------



## durruti02 (Apr 13, 2007)

mr gash did not say that the EDP have a e-petition for a referendum  on the govt website 

..when i looked it had 174 supportters so far .. all or none who may have been from (historic county) of monmouth!  ... so can't see demand .. yet .. 

true though that majority of county did not support assembly either time .. but was that residual labour anti nat supportters? and welsh speaking almost non existent for many years .. much less than croesowallt!


----------



## brianx (Apr 16, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Yeah you can keep Newport - it's a dump. Isn't it the post pub violence capital of the UK?
> 
> Some bits of Monmouthshire are quite pretty though.



Well looking out of my window this morning our dirty old town's looking particularly lovely.
Next time you're in Newport post pub why don't you let people know what you think of the place and you'll find out.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 16, 2007)

brianx said:
			
		

> Well looking out of my window this morning our dirty old town's looking particularly lovely.
> Next time you're in Newport post pub why don't you let people know what you think of the place and you'll find out.


The crapness of Newport, and the propensity for general violence, let alone any I would be stupid enough to draw on myself, make my ever visiting the place again highly unlikely.

I'm not picking on Newport in particular. There are plenty of other shit places on this island, just that Newport ranks highly amongst them.


----------



## brianx (Apr 16, 2007)

If we were to leave Wales it probably wouldn't be into the arms of Mother England although it's flattering to be courted like. Now if the Trinidad or St Lucia Democrats were to stand in Gwent.
If Gwent did decide to "rejoin" England wouldn't the English people be given a vote to decide if they want us? If a drunken, violent old hobo wants to move into your house you do have the right to tell him to bugger off.


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Apr 16, 2007)

If the Trinidad or St Lucia Democrats were to stand in Gwent, I'd be really tempted to vote for them, they'd have to have strong policy's on the weather though!!!


----------



## Dic Penderyn (Apr 16, 2007)

by the way Newport really, really isn't that violent, it's just 
a) we want to scare away people from our fine city
b) cardiff is soft as shite and thinks everywhere is violent.


----------



## Stephen Gash (Apr 19, 2007)

niksativa said:
			
		

> EDIT: It's possible to not be a nationalist and support this federal vision - the EDP are nationalists and show signs of right-wing thinking on other issues - that doesn't mean that a federal system is of itself nationalist - it is however certainly anti-state.
> 
> EDIT 2: That whole bit about Monmouthshire is clearly nationalist shit stirring by the EDP though - although its fair enough to have a referendum.


Left wing and right wing are outmoded concepts. The only criticism that has been levelled at us is our policy on a points system for immigration - which has been introduced this week by the Labour Government for non-EU citizens.
As we offer the English electorate a referendum on EU membership then this would more than likely be extended, to present EU citizens outside the UK.

We cannot be described as right wing. I would sooner have an Englishman like Ian Wright standing shoulder to shoulder with me for England than the Scots and Welsh "British" MPs voting through legislation which impoverishes England when compared to the other parts of the laugably named United Kingdom.

Welsh Nationalists have been stirring in English matters for decades regarding Cornwall, so it is a bit rich to accuse us of doing a bit of stirring ourselves.

Alex Salmond has been doing the same, and if he does it again we will be reminding the Shetlanders of their Nordic roots and suggesting they could become an oil rich Dubai of the north, if they were independent.

The English now have a nationalist party willing to fight for England and to use the same tactics employed by other nationalist parties against England, but in reverse. Any whining about English nationalism is frankly risible.

Sauce for the goose springs to mind. 

England and Englishness have been attacked with impunity - until now

I remind everybody, the title of the campaign is "Letting Monmouthshire Decide" which should have been the case in 1972.

It would sem that devolution has exposed the fact that a sense of fair play is not a "British" characteristic, but an English one.

Please name me a law that selectively disadvantaged Wales compared to England before devolution.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 19, 2007)

Yeah but surely some basic polling of the electorate in Monmothshire would suggest that you haven't got a hope in hell. So why choose this?

This bit looks like an awkward cut and paste from a list of quotes:


> We cannot be described as right wing. I would sooner have an Englishman like Ian Wright standing shoulder to shoulder with me for England than the Scots and Welsh "British" MPs voting through legislation which impoverishes England when compared to the other parts of the laugably named United Kingdom.



Other than the statement struggling to maintain any cohesive internal logic, it doesn't really make much of a statement about your stance on right and left.

What is your policies about recent curtailing of Trade Union rights?


----------



## llantwit (Apr 19, 2007)

Stephen Gash said:
			
		

> England and Englishness have been attacked with impunity - until now


Awww, boo fucking hoo. The poor English being picked on by everyone.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 19, 2007)

Watch it welshy - you'll be queing up on Offa's Dyke with begging bowls once we cut you loose


----------



## llantwit (Apr 19, 2007)

Not once we turn the water off, I won't!
Half of Birmingham'll be crawling to us gasping parched pleas for mercy and offering us free Cadburies chocolate.


----------



## Idaho (Apr 19, 2007)

Hehehehe... water - about the only thing abundant in Wales - with the possible exception of unsolicited violence


----------



## llantwit (Apr 19, 2007)

........[punches Idaho and wanders off for drink]


----------



## Belushi (May 4, 2007)

Anyone know how Mr Gash did in the elections?


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 4, 2007)

Belushi said:
			
		

> Anyone know how Mr Gash did in the elections?


Mr Gash doesn't appear in the results listings for any of the 3 areas.

But the "ED" results were as follows - 

Monmouth - Ed Abrams, 804 votes, 2.7%
Newport East - Michael Blundell, 429 votes, 2.2%
Newport West - Andrew Constantine, 634 votes, 2.7%

So, a consistent showing, even if it was consistently shit.

ETA: Went to http://www.englishdemocraticparty.org.uk/ to try and find out a bit more. Their website is an object lesson in garishly horrible design - they sounded like amateurs already, but the website makes them LOOK like amateurs, too...


----------



## Idaho (May 4, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> Mr Gash doesn't appear in the results listings for any of the 3 areas.
> 
> But the "ED" results were as follows -
> 
> ...



Tbh I am amazed they got that many votes. That's actually a pretty good showing considering how bizzare it was for them to stand in those areas.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Tbh I am amazed they got that many votes. That's actually a pretty good showing considering how bizzare it was for them to stand in those areas.


Well, maybe it was a combination of stupid people, expat nutter English, and more stupid people.

If the crappy website is anything to go by, this party's probably no more than a gang of misty-eyed old men hankering for the days of Empire, sorting out Johnny Foreigner by giving him a taste of cold British...er, sorry, English steel, and The Few. I mean, "fighter squadrons", ferfuxache??? I'm surprised their policies didn't include compulsory cricket, and village greens in every London postcode area.

Idiots.


----------



## Idaho (May 4, 2007)

As me and a few others have said, it is a shame they are so crap, as there is a kernel of a decent idea behind the concept of a progressive English nationalist party. Instead it has been taken up by these odd folk as a petulant 'told you so' to the devolution movement.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> As me and a few others have said, it is a shame they are so crap, as there is a kernel of a decent idea behind the concept of a progressive English nationalist party. Instead it has been taken up by these odd folk as a petulant 'told you so' to the devolution movement.


I can't agree. What they seem to be after is some idealistic and hopelessly unachievable return to days of yore. There's any number of eurosceptic parties, if that's your bag, and the idea of suddenly cutting loose all the provinces is laughably stupid, in any case. We can "honour our gracious Queen" without having to join a political party that even tells those interested to go and vote UKIP in any case, and any outfit that talks of "ships of the line" and "fighter squadrons" has been spending far too much time watching "They Also Serve" and "Battle of Britain" style films.

World calling English Democrats - the Hun are on OUR SIDE NOW


----------



## Idaho (May 4, 2007)

You misunderstand me. I don't think _they_ have any decent ideas, but the _general concept_ of a progressive English nationalist could be a good one. If Wales, NI and Scotland are moving toward independance, then it is only sensible that England create an image of itself to move forward with. It can't go on being the sad remains of an old empire. It does still have things to do.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> You misunderstand me. I don't think _they_ have any decent ideas, but the _general concept_ of a progressive English nationalist could be a good one. If Wales, NI and Scotland are moving toward independance, then it is only sensible that England create an image of itself to move forward with. It can't go on being the sad remains of an old empire. It does still have things to do.


Fair point. I re-read your post and realised I'd missed your premise.

Actually, I probably missed it because I think the idea of a separatist Wales, NI, Scotland is a bit of a dumb one, and I fell into my prejudicial "aww, look at pwoar England, wowwying about being left out, pwoar ickwle lion" attitude when I think I see people griping about it (which I'll accept you probably weren't).

I think the kind of independence the provinces mostly have is a great one, but I really do believe that our heritages are so intertwined that separatism isn't the way to go: the way to go is for England (in particular) to start recognising the debt and the honour it shares to be partnered with the countries it is. I'd add the RoI to that, too - these are all peoples who, despite our differences, have fought for, with, (ok, and occasionally against) us, share so many of our ideals (and brewing techniques), and whom we have both supplied and been supplied by with all the essentials of existence. They have taught our children, as we have trained their adults. They have written our songs, as we have sung theirs. We're siblings, really, and all it takes, I think, is for the English (in particular) to stop seeing our countries as some outfit that deserves all kinds of things, and accept their existence in conjunction with the provinces, as equals on all kinds of bases.

And let's leave the petty-minded nationalists and those who MUST see difference everywhere they look to their tawdry agendas and centuries-old slights. We don't need that crap any more...


----------



## Idaho (May 4, 2007)

I generally agree with that. I would probably take the analogy of syblings a bit further. I think these islands have more tribes than just those lumped together under the titles of the 4 nations. I think that there are sometimes sharper differences within England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland than between them.


----------



## pembrokestephen (May 4, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I generally agree with that. I would probably take the analogy of syblings a bit further. I think these islands have more tribes than just those lumped together under the titles of the 4 nations. I think that there are sometimes sharper differences within England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland than between them.


*nods*


----------



## Karac (May 5, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Tbh I am amazed they got that many votes. That's actually a pretty good showing considering how bizzare it was for them to stand in those areas.


Not really
Blundell, Mike ............Eng Dem 429 (2.16%) 
Constantine, Andrew....Eng Dem 634 (2.68%) 
Abrams, Ed..................Eng Dem 804 (2.72%) 

Beany, Captain..........Bean Party 840 (4.09%) 
I reckon anyone could get 2-3% of the vote with a few leaflets and a bit of publicity


----------



## Idaho (May 5, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> Not really
> Blundell, Mike ............Eng Dem 429 (2.16%)
> Constantine, Andrew....Eng Dem 634 (2.68%)
> Abrams, Ed..................Eng Dem 804 (2.72%)
> ...




I suppose in that context...

Although he was a joke candidate - so is going to get more than a misguided 'serious' candidate.


----------



## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

pembrokestephen said:
			
		

> Fair point. I re-read your post and realised I'd missed your premise.
> 
> Actually, I probably missed it because I think the idea of a separatist Wales, NI, Scotland is a bit of a dumb one, and I fell into my prejudicial "aww, look at pwoar England, wowwying about being left out, pwoar ickwle lion" attitude when I think I see people griping about it (which I'll accept you probably weren't).
> 
> ...



Every analysis of Scottish and Welsh nationalism seems to miss the point of our aspirations for independence. This is probably our fault (the nationalists' that is) !

Gwynfor Evans developed Plaid's idea of independence, in which we'd be completely independent of London rule, ruling ourselves. But in that respect, we'd also be independent to co-operate with London (whereas at the moment the relationship between Wales and London is not fully co-operative), including such things as remaining a member of the Commonwealth (and keeping the Queen- although personally i'd love to see the old bitch gone) if the electorate voted for it, having a customs union (which would be essential to Gwynfor's vision, that the borders would be open between Wales and England and we wouldn't need new passports, which would divide our nations further) and generally working together with the United Kingdom.

Under this scenario, Wales obviously wouldn't be a member of the United Kingdom, but we'd still geographically and culturally be part of a wider British idea, there could be room for a 'British Union' within the EU, which would work out alot more fairer and proportional than the current (dis)United Kingdom we have!

Hope that maybe clears something up? The idea that Welsh nationalism comes from real political goals and the needs of our country today, rather than starry-eyed 19th century sovereignty concerns!


----------



## Brockway (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I generally agree with that. I would probably take the analogy of syblings a bit further. I think these islands have more tribes than just those lumped together under the titles of the 4 nations. I think that there are sometimes sharper differences within England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland than between them.



Well Ireland, Scotland, and Wales could be seen as siblings but not England. If you wanted to personify England it would have to be as a bullying German lodger who barged his way into your home and decided to stay.

As for tribes the Anglo-Saxons would have more in common with other Germanic tribes than with us.


----------



## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Well Ireland, Scotland, and Wales could be seen as siblings but not England. If you wanted to personify England it would have to be as a bullying German lodger who barged his way into your home and decided to stay.
> 
> As for tribes the Anglo-Saxons would have more in common with other Germanic tribes than with us.


I realise that is an attractive notion held dear to many in the 'celtic' nations, but the science of genetics and movement of human populations tends to tell a vastly different picture.


----------



## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> As for tribes the Anglo-Saxons would have more in common with other Germanic tribes than with us.


And where do you think the various celtic tribes came from? Atlantis


----------



## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

Does that really matter, looking at Wales and England today?

If I look at the two countries I can see they both desperately need to govern themselves. Independence. 

I don't give a shit about tribes at all. Does anyone on the street care about tribes anymore? It is great history and of course to know about Welsh politics you have to understand the history of Wales, but nowadays birth doesn't always correlate with nationality. 

Welsh nationhood is now in the conscience rather than through an accident of birth, which is why Plaid for example has Welsh people in the Assembly now who were born in Pakistan, Newcastle, Colchester etc. Welsh national consciousness is alive and growing.


----------



## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

I agree completely. It's sad that some welsh people still cling to a negative identity of 'not-English' rather than constructing something meaningful anew.


----------



## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I agree completely. It's sad that some welsh people still cling to a negative identity of 'not-English' rather than constructing something meaningful anew.



The Welsh identity is by and large a positive one which has indeed been constructed anew during this and the previous century.

It is however fully understandable that some Welsh people feel marginalised and feel that their language is being threatened by incomers (whatever their nationality) moving into areas dominated by the Welsh language, and not learning to speak Welsh.
Any migrant, economic or otherwise, should be welcomed into their community but should only expect this welcome if they're prepared to learn the local language. This applies as much to parts of Wales as it does to Spain, France etc where people from the British Isles (probably including Welsh people, funnily enough)) also sometimes disregard the native tongue. 

If we resolve this issue, and also correct the relationship between Wales and London (Wales needs to be treated seperately, not as part of some phantom 'England & Wales' entity), Welsh-English bitterness will be confined to the sports field.


----------



## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Any migrant, economic or otherwise, should be welcomed into their community but should only expect this welcome if they're prepared to learn the local language. This applies as much to parts of Wales as it does to Spain, France etc where people from the British Isles (probably including Welsh people, funnily enough)) also sometimes disregard the native tongue.


Do you think migrants to England should be obliged to learn english?


----------



## lewislewis (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Do you think migrants to England should be obliged to learn english?



Yes I do, although the English language is not under threat in the same way as Welsh, it is essential so that migrants can access the various services they're entitled to. When walking down a street I would love to hear many different languages being spoken


----------



## Brockway (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I agree completely. It's sad that some welsh people still cling to a negative identity of 'not-English' rather than constructing something meaningful anew.



Well you would said that - you are the colonizer.

I think it's great myself. It's always good to remind the English that they are of Germanic descent and that they are an interloper, colonizer nation. 

Maybe those whining Chechens should just get on with being Russian? How about the Basques, perhaps they should put their culture to one side and concentrate on being good, obedient Spanish citizens? I would say it's crucial to both that they define themselves by stressing their difference to the coloniser.


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## Brockway (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> And where do you think the various celtic tribes came from? Atlantis



 

Paid a mallu cachau.


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## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Well you would said that - you are the colonizer.
> 
> I think it's great myself. It's always good to remind the English that they are of Germanic descent and that they are an interloper, colonizer nation.


I'm the coloniser? Cool. 

As for Germanic decent - that Ladybird book of the history of the British Isles may have served you well for your short years, but the gaps are starting to show. There is so much wrong with the notion of the english being german, I don't know where to start.


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## Idaho (May 6, 2007)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Paid a mallu cachau.


Wakanai


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## Brockway (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Wakanai



Pen pidyn


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## Karac (May 6, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> I realise that is an attractive notion held dear to many in the 'celtic' nations, but the science of genetics and movement of human populations tends to tell a vastly different picture.


It does indeed-at least according to this guy-http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.html
But that might piss english people off more if they knew they were mainly Celtic rather than Germanic


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## Idaho (May 7, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> It does indeed-at least according to this guy-http://www.bradshawfoundation.com/stephenoppenheimer/origins_of_the_british.html
> But that might piss english people off more if they knew they were mainly Celtic rather than Germanic


Tbh I don't think 98% of them would give a toss.


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## rhys gethin (May 8, 2007)

Idaho said:
			
		

> Tbh I don't think 98% of them would give a toss.



Well, I think that about 70% of those of the English who can read seem currently to believe, against all the evidence, that they are descended from the  perpetrators of one of the greatest racial massacres and/or ethnic cleansings yet imagined in history, they being 'Anglo-Saxons'.   Current research seems to suggest there may really have been as few as 10,000 or these mercenary German boat-people, and certainly not more than 100,000, so they must have had a great number of extermination camps and vast supplies of Zyklon B to deal with the three-to-four million inhabitants of the province that had kicked out the Roman officials in 410.   Alternatively, those millions could all have moved west and lived on good 'Welsh' grass, of course.   They were very talented people, obviously!

In fact, as Oppenheimer points out in Prospect for last October -
www.prospect-magazine.co.uk/article_details.php?id=7817
- none of the peoples of this Archipelago is either 'Celtic' or 'German':  we are mostly descended from those who followed the retreating ice north, and are genetically closest to the modern Basques.   The English are just British people who have been conquered more often than the rest of us.

_(I thought I'd posted something like this a few days back, but it seems to have escaped.   Forgive me if you've read it already)_


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