# East Brixton station (formerly Lougborough Park): abandoned station off Coldharbour Lane



## editor (Nov 19, 2003)

Just got a reply back from TFL stating that the 'costs would outweigh the benefits' of putting in a station on the extended East London Line - so no new train service for us.


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## the B (Nov 19, 2003)

I don't really like the East London line anyway  

I kind of think the Victoria line should go further south though.


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## MrSki (Nov 19, 2003)

What a load of wank.

The benefits of expanding any rail network in south London must outway the costs.

The more that interchanges are available on any transport route makes them more attractive. 

It might fuck up the ticketing but it keeps the brain active planning routes. 

Still if we get a tram.....


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## hatboy (Nov 19, 2003)

Ken Livingston promised this publically.

What's going on?

mayor@london.gov.uk

yourlondon@bbc.co.uk


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## Jay Emm (Nov 19, 2003)

And he changes his mind every 5 minutes.

Ed, try writing to the SRA.


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## Calva dosser (Nov 19, 2003)

I am afraid I think my Ex may have had a hand in this


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 19, 2003)

we don't want the Victoria Line extended.  One of the joys of it terminating in Brixton is that we can always get a seat   Well, most of the time


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## Loki (Nov 19, 2003)

e-mail despatched to Red Ken.


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## hatboy (Nov 19, 2003)

Me too. Please fire off a quick one for me folks. (Phnar, phnar).

 

PS I wonder whether you've been mis-informed Mike. Ken's promise was very emphatic. "New Line Will Stop at Brixton" on the front of the SLP:

http://tinyurl.com/vqi3

"And the East London Line, which runs directly over Brixton, will DEFINITELY stop in the town, he vowed."

What!!!!


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## editor (Nov 19, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *PS I wonder whether you've been mis-informed Mike. Ken's promise was very emphatic.  *


 So was the reply I received from TfL.

It's not coming to Brixton.


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## THE WARRIOR (Nov 19, 2003)

Could it be in order to secure the Tram coming to Brixton, and not being diverted from Stockwell to Clapham as has previously been mooted. Seems crazy that the East London Line was prioritised to go from Peckham to Clapham Junction, over Tulse Hill and Wimbledon to regenerate inner South London. It will stop at Denmark Hill, then the longest gap of almost 2 miles to Clapham (most stops are between 1/2 amd 3/4 mile apart). The sight of sleek trains running through might regenerate a trainspotter, but not much else. Do the wine bars of Clapham need regeneration?


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## lang rabbie (Nov 20, 2003)

It's another fine LU project management mess.   The ELL southern extensions project only got approved by central Government on the basis that it would be ridiculously cheap - just building a few hundred yards of track around the New Cross area mostly where there were Victorian railway lines.   Most of the rest of the approved cost is for new rolling stock.    

Any costs over and above this would need to come from TfL's own budget rather than central government.


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## lang rabbie (Nov 20, 2003)

Have just spoken to the East London Line project team's "Communications Manager".

He told me that the most recent estimate of costs for a new station on the high level line (the line that the ELL trains would have to use) had reached  £50 (FIFTY) million     
at which point they stopped working on further options as they could never justify payback even in regeneration terms.

Edited to add eeks


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## Loki (Nov 26, 2003)

The letter I got back from TfL just now:



> Dear norse deity,
> 
> EAST LONDON LINE EXTENSION
> 
> ...


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## lang rabbie (Nov 27, 2003)

> and the planned Cross River Transit services [woss that?]



It's the mythical tram following the 59 bus route from Camden and going over Waterloo bridge.    ETA 2012 at the earliest, so don't hold your breath!


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## hatboy (Nov 27, 2003)

Please can you reply to that email asking whether the last part therefore confirms that the tram WILL definitely come to Brixton and not Clapham then?


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## detective-boy (Nov 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by lang rabbie _
> *ETA 2012 at the earliest, so don't hold your breath! *



Still, not too late.  Still gives you 2hrs 48mins drinking time before closing.


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## Loki (Nov 27, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *Please can you reply to that email asking whether the last part therefore confirms that the tram WILL definitely come to Brixton and not Clapham then? *


OK.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Nov 27, 2003)

Rush hour on Brixton Hill with the Trams


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## Loki (Dec 12, 2003)

Here's the reply I got Hatboy:

11 December 2003 


TfL Ref: 29620A 


Dear norse deity

East London line extension

Thank you for your letter of 27 November.

Information on the Cross River Tram Scheme can be found on our website - http://www.tfl.gov.uk/trams/initiatives/ini_index_cr.shtml.  The future timescales will be dependent on funding and other approvals.

My colleagues in TfL Transport Planning have advised me that it is most unlikely that the Clapham proposals will be pursued further.  These have never been part of the core option, which is based on going to Brixton.  

Yours sincerely


David Marshall
TfL Customer Relations


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 12, 2003)

Great pic Minnie.

So does that reply mean that yes, the Tram is coming to Brixton? I *think* it does!!


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 19, 2003)

I got this reply from Transport for London. No ELL, as we thought (despite Mayor's public promise) and no commitment on the trams as yet either. But this Cross River Transit thing is defintely coming to Brixton - the link is below.
*************************

Thank you for your e-mail to the Mayor requesting clarification on the proposals for Tramlink and the East London Line extensions. I have been asked to reply on his behalf.

Mr Livingstone and Transport for London TfL accept that new stations at Brixton and/or Loughborough Junction would fit in very well with the objectives of the extended East London Line.  They would provide the opportunity for passengers to interchange from local, and predominantly radial, train services onto the new orbital link and thus gain access to a greater part of the rail network in London, and also help to promote local regeneration and greater social inclusion.  For these reasons TfL commissioned a feasibility study into how these stations could be provided.  Unfortunately, both sites are difficult in engineering terms, requiring the stations to be up on viaducts, substantial infrastructure changes and/or land take, in order to provide stations that would meet modern design standards for safety and access.  To provide such stations would be very costly, and unfortunately the costs would far outweigh the benefits.

In the circumstances, TfL and the Strategic Rail Authority, who are now taking the lead on the East London Line extension project, have concluded that it is not possible to proceed with new stations at Brixton and Loughborough Junction.  However, we will continue to look into what can be done to better integrate the existing bus, National Rail, Underground and the planned Cross River Transit services at Brixton.

A TfL sponsored study was carried out during 2002 to examine several possible tramway alignments around south London, and this produced four potentially viable extensions to the Croydon Tramlink system: 

South Norwood to Crystal Palace
Streatham to Purley
Tooting to Sutton
Wimbledon to Sutton

Further work is underway to establish a business case before the Mayor will be in a position to make a decision on whether to proceed with any of these proposals.

However Mr Livingstone has also given the go-ahead for the Cross River Transit scheme which will be heading to amongst other areas, Brixton and Peckham, please refer to the following link for more information:
click here 

Once again thank you for taking the time to contact the Mayor and I hope the above is of help.

Yours sincerely
Jasmine Howard
Customer Relations
********************************

So it looks like we'll have no trams connected to south London - but we will have trams connected to central London. Which I think is a strange decision, considering that links from Brixton to central London are already good, and links to the south/east are the ones that are really needed.


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## Loki (Dec 19, 2003)

Hatter:  That's pretty much identical information to the two letters I already posted, above


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## squidlet (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Brixton Hatter _
> *I So it looks like we'll have no trams connected to south London - but we will have trams connected to central London. Which I think is a strange decision, considering that links from Brixton to central London are already good, and links to the south/east are the ones that are really needed. *



Exactly !   It takes me 45 minutes on the comfort of the top deck of the 45 to get from Loughborough Junction to King's Cross.   And if I'm in a rush I can get Thameslink or the tube.   North -South is not the problmm.   I really think this tram thing is a re herring and waste of time.   I haven't seen how it works in Croydon but presumably there must be some pretty massive engineering / power-supply / road widening / remodelling that needs to be done.   And unnecessary,  certainly northbound.   Can that really be more expensive than opening up cross-London rail links by building on existing stations at LJ and Brixton ?   Its not exactly massive engineering to build upwards - not like digging a new tube station.   Has anyone looked at / critiqued the feasibility studies ?  And does anyone know when the next Forum meeting is ?


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## hatboy (Dec 20, 2003)

Well I want the tram. It will be a pleasure to use and to look at. Trams are beautiful.


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## Loki (Dec 20, 2003)

... if only they looked like Minx's pic, above .  Unfortunately the Wimbledon-Croydon trams are boringly functional looking.


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## lang rabbie (Dec 20, 2003)

*Cross River Transit by 2011!*

Just followed the link - TfL are now suggesting its possible that the Transit might be built by 2011 rather than 2012 as previously suggested.

Before I make my new year's resolution - to do as I would be done by in 2004, avoid cynicism, and avoid excessive use of   , there's just time for this jaded old hack to ask:

*Might the new date be because a promise of the tram "in seven years" would sound catchier during Ken's re-election campaign than a pledge that it will be here in eight years time?* _Mystical/rhetorical effect of prime numbers and all that_


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## hatboy (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by Loki _
> *... if only they looked like Minx's pic, above .  Unfortunately the Wimbledon-Croydon trams are boringly functional looking. *



I disagree. I think the Croydon tram is beautiful and it is necessary and would be excellent for this area.


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## editor (Dec 20, 2003)

This was the toughest 'Then and Now' to get right - I couldn't find any street level photos of the old East Brixton station anywhere until I unearthed a dog-eared, faded image from the lambethlandmark.com site that took some major Photoshoppery to salvage.

Things weren't helped by the image being incorrectly captioned (" view from Barrington Road looking towards railway bridges and Coldharbour Lane."  After several baffled attempts to take the photo from that angle I realised that the view is in fact from Coldharbour Lane!).

Anyway here it is at last! 
East Brixton station


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## Loki (Dec 20, 2003)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *I disagree. I think the Croydon tram is beautiful and it is necessary and would be excellent for this area. *


I don't disagree they'd be fantastic for Brixton, I just don't find them that special looking tho.  They look like the modern rectangular buses but on tracks to me.  But hey, beauty is in the eye of the beholder 

edit to add - nice pics ed


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## Pickman's model (Dec 21, 2003)

i thought that the real reason the east london line extension isn't going to brixton was so beautiful hackney doesn't get invaded by south londoners.


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## THE WARRIOR (Dec 21, 2003)

> _Originally posted by squidlet _
> *Exactly !   It takes me 45 minutes on the comfort of the top deck of the 45 to get from Loughborough Junction to King's Cross.   And if I'm in a rush I can get Thameslink or the tube.   North -South is not the problmm.   I really think this tram thing is a re herring and waste of time.   I haven't seen how it works in Croydon but presumably there must be some pretty massive engineering / power-supply / road widening / remodelling that needs to be done.   And unnecessary,  certainly northbound.   Can that really be more expensive than opening up cross-London rail links by building on existing stations at LJ and Brixton ?   Its not exactly massive engineering to build upwards - not like digging a new tube station.   Has anyone looked at / critiqued the feasibility studies ?  And does anyone know when the next Forum meeting is ? *



*next Coldharbour/Angell meeting on 14th Jan 7pm at St Matthews Church Lilford Rd. * Minutes/Agenda should be on website - Val Shawcross (Lambeth Southwark Assembly Member will be there


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## hatboy (Dec 22, 2003)

"Minutes/Agenda should be on website"

What website? Does Brixton Area Frorum have one?


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## THE WARRIOR (Dec 22, 2003)

LB Lambeth website


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## hatboy (Dec 22, 2003)

I don't know whether there's anything behind it, but I feel some council meetings are selectively minuted, perhaps (I say perhaps) leaving out comments from members of the public whoever is in charge thinks don't fit with the council's agenda.


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## calum (Jan 5, 2004)

i asked ken about the trams once a few years ago and he said they were too expensive and the costs of redoing the roads etc was prohibitive. the cryodon one went in at way more expensive than planned and as much as he'd like 'em he didn't see them coming back in a major way...


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## Streathamite (Jan 12, 2004)

one question I would raise: what makes peeps think there's a better logical case for putting the ELl extension in SW2 as opposed to(for instance) Lewisham, Camberwell or Dulwich? just curious, that's all


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## Loki (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by hatboy _
> *I don't know whether there's anything behind it, but I feel some council meetings are selectively minuted, perhaps (I say perhaps) leaving out comments from members of the public whoever is in charge thinks don't fit with the council's agenda. *


Wouldn't surprise me one little bit.


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## Loki (Jan 12, 2004)

> _Originally posted by calum _
> *i asked ken about the trams once a few years ago and he said they were too expensive and the costs of redoing the roads etc was prohibitive. the cryodon one went in at way more expensive than planned*


Maybe so but they've been bloody handy for me.  And the trams are always mostly full so obviously popular with Londoners.


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## calum (Jan 13, 2004)

i agree. makes you wonder why they ripped out the lines in the first place...


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## lang rabbie (Jan 21, 2004)

*"The London Tram"*

Just stumbled across a job advert on the Lambeth website for a Principal Project Officer - London Tram  paying a fairly serious salary.    So someone obviously thinks its still a runner.


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## citydreams (Aug 19, 2004)

Bump.. Just wondering if anything has happened now the money *is* available

Would Lambeth Planning have the proposed path of the ELL?


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## PacificOcean (Aug 19, 2004)

Edit:  Someone has already said it.


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## Isambard (Aug 19, 2004)

<Not really my forum, passes Hobnobs and stuff>

The idea to put a station in Brixton with direct trains to SE London has been doing the rounds in the railway trade press for at least 20 years. Anyone anoracky enough might find old stories in the archives of the publisher Ian Allan.

Sorry this story is just TYPICAL Britain when it comes down to public transport!    

It's not popular     but I'll put on my tin foil hat and guess that the costs of a new station in Brisxton have been massively overestimated for a reason!

<wanders back off to sex and diseases forum>


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## Errol's son (Aug 19, 2004)

http://www.ellp.co.uk/stations.htm

Hoxton seems to be getting a brand new fancy station on top of a viaduct.  That must cost a fair few million?

It seems that the ELL is not really there for the benefit of south Londoners.  All the expenditure is going to east London.  It is just being routed through exisiting south London stations on the cheap.


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## PacificOcean (Aug 19, 2004)

I don't see the point of the southern extention.  It goes around London rather than into it.  So for example getting on at Anerley will mean a FOURTEEN stations ride before reaching the first tube interchange miles away in Whitechapel.


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## Pickman's model (Aug 19, 2004)

i thought for a minute that the lack of east london line in brixton would be a bad thing - it would make it easier for me to get back from offline, the albert &c if the ell were extended that far - but then i realised that the positive side of the coin is south londoners being kept in south london. which can't be a bad thing!


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 19, 2004)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> I don't see the point of the southern extention.  It goes around London rather than into it.  So for example getting on at Anerley will mean a FOURTEEN stations ride before reaching the first tube interchange miles away in Whitechapel.


Surely the point is to give a tube station to hitherto unconnected areas of south London? Going across south London is quite difficult at present - try getting a bus from, say, Forest Hill to Putney and it would take you ages. Going IN to London is not a problem from most places in south London as most areas have an overground which gets to victoria/london bridge etc in about 10/15/20 minutes.


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## citydreams (Aug 19, 2004)

I guess it's handy to get from Anerley to that booming metropolis, Croydon


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## Ol Nick (Aug 19, 2004)

citydreams said:
			
		

> I guess it's handy to get from Anerley to that booming metropolis, Croydon


The planners seem to to want people not to leave Anerley. They could be said to be Anerley retentive.


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## PacificOcean (Aug 19, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> Surely the point is to give a tube station to hitherto unconnected areas of south London? Going across south London is quite difficult at present - try getting a bus from, say, Forest Hill to Putney and it would take you ages. Going IN to London is not a problem from most places in south London as most areas have an overground which gets to victoria/london bridge etc in about 10/15/20 minutes.



But it's not connecting anything new.  It's going over the same track as Southern trains, just branching off at New Cross instead.  Same tracks, different trains.  I just don't see the point, or am I missing something.


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## Errol's son (Aug 19, 2004)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> But it's not connecting anything new.  It's going over the same track as Southern trains, just branching off at New Cross instead.  Same tracks, different trains.  I just don't see the point, or am I missing something.



Clapham Junction is not on the tube.

Perhaps many well-heeled types living over there need an easier way to get to work in the Docklands without having to interchange in central London?


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## PacificOcean (Aug 19, 2004)

Errol's son said:
			
		

> Clapham Junction is not on the tube.
> 
> Perhaps many well-heeled types living over there need an easier way to get to work in the Docklands without having to interchange in central London?




Anaork Alert!!!!

Tecnichally Clapham Junction is already connected to the tube.  At East Putney the District Line branches off and connects to the bit between Putney and Clapham Junction on the South West Trains Line.


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## Errol's son (Aug 19, 2004)

Does anyone know how integrated the northern line will be at Clapham North when the ELL arrives at Claphma High Street?

I don't really call that integrated at the moment - between the tube and train - as you have to exit a station, walk a bit, cross a main road, walk a bit more and then enter a new station with a different name.  I wouldn't fancy that interchange if I was in a wheelchair, I don't think.


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## gaijingirl (Aug 19, 2004)

> The planners seem to to want people not to leave Anerley. They could be said to be Anerley retentive.


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## Isambard (Aug 19, 2004)

You know, it this worked out you could go Brixton - Clapham Junc, Clapham Junc-Willesden Junc, Willesden Junc- Highbury and Islington, making the Victoria Line superfluous! 

But the main point is, most European large cities have very good radial routes but shite tangental ones.


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## citydreams (Aug 19, 2004)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> Anaork Alert!!!!
> 
> Tecnichally Clapham Junction is already connected to the tube.  At East Putney the District Line branches off and connects to the bit between Putney and Clapham Junction on the South West Trains Line.



The Clapham Junction - High & I is Phase II of the plan... so there must be a need from some new line, otherwise the Clah'm Rangers would have their Dockland Express by now.


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## Poi E (Aug 19, 2004)

Wonder why they ever closed the spurs of the ELL that ran down to OLD Kent Road and Peckham? (you can still see the remains of the track bed as you head south past Surrey Quays.) I love the ELL. It has a fascinating history, having been used for freight, various steam excursons to Brighten in the old days, and now the tube. Not to mention the famous tunnel under the Thames. The trains just trundle sedately along and there is a very friendly driver with a Jamaican accent who intones "relax and enjoy the journey."  Right friendly guy. It's more of a toy train than a tube, IMO.

A real shame they closed East Brixton. I have a great book on the South London Line with some nice photos depicting the station at various times. Useful interchange.


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## Bob (Aug 19, 2004)

Double anorark alert - actually £50m for a station may sound a little pricey but the economic benefits they'd need to justify that are only about £2.5-3m a year (for any economists reading the government uses a real discount rate of 3%). Given the value they put on people's time (I seem to remember about £5-10 an hour) this would be justified by about 10,000 people saving 15 minutes each on 200 days a year. Maybe a train spotter type can tell us whether that sounds realistic for the benefits of a new tube connection - sounds fairly reasonable to me.


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## lang rabbie (Aug 19, 2004)

The "funding package" for the East London Line is only for "phase 1" - to Dalston Junction, West Croydon and Crystal Palace.    

The Clapham Junction branch running through Brixton is now in "phase 2", with no confirmed timetable.    (The northern extension to Highbury and Islington is similarly delayed.)

TFL press release 20 July

TFL map of initiatives including two phases of ELL

Sadly, I'm not surprised, as this is exactly what I predicted on 21 April  when Val Shawcross was making a song and dance about her support for the Brixton and Loughborough Junction stations (just before the local elections).


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## Brixton Hatter (Aug 20, 2004)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> Tecnichally Clapham Junction is already connected to the tube.  At East Putney the District Line branches off and connects to the bit between Putney and Clapham Junction on the South West Trains Line.


The Mayor *promised * to put Clapham Junction on the tube map a few years ago: he said he'd get them to redraw all the tube maps so that a little dotted line went from Victoria to Clapham Junction.   

(Not a bad idea IMHO, seeing as many people (esp tourists) don't realise that trains run from Victoria to Clapham Junction at pretty much the same frequency as most tube lines run trains - every 5 mins or so)


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## hatboy (Aug 20, 2004)

Lang, since these rail annoucements I can't get the mayor's office to confirm that the tram for Brixton will still come. They evade the question. Can you or others try?


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## lang rabbie (Aug 20, 2004)

hatboy said:
			
		

> Lang, since these rail annoucements I can't get the mayor's office to confirm that the tram for Brixton will still come. They evade the question. Can you or others try?



AFAIK No public change of stance (i.e. it is still usually described as a tram, not just as transit, which could be a segregated bus route), just no guarantee of money.  

Think that the likely timetable for Government to announce the rest of the transport plans following Gordon Brown's spending review is some time in November.

IMHO Priorities for the various tram/transit/tube/rail proposals are likely to favour docklands/east London if the Olympic bid is successful.


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## lang rabbie (Sep 9, 2004)

*From minutes of Mayor's Question Time - 15 July 2004*

For your information... 



> East London Line
> Question No: 858 / 2004
> Valerie Shawcross
> 
> ...


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## PacificOcean (Sep 9, 2004)

Brixton Hatter said:
			
		

> The Mayor *promised * to put Clapham Junction on the tube map a few years ago: he said he'd get them to redraw all the tube maps so that a little dotted line went from Victoria to Clapham Junction.
> 
> (Not a bad idea IMHO, seeing as many people (esp tourists) don't realise that trains run from Victoria to Clapham Junction at pretty much the same frequency as most tube lines run trains - every 5 mins or so)



What's in Clapham Junction that draws the tourists?


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## Poi E (Sep 9, 2004)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> What's in Clapham Junction that draws the tourists?



Britains busiest railway station, silly.


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## citydreams (Sep 9, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> For your information...



Which part of Transport for London will be looking at this?


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## lang rabbie (Sep 9, 2004)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Which part of Transport for London will be looking at this?



It won't be - LDA = London Development Agency, another part of the Mayor's family of bodies.    As I posted ages ago, I don't see any station being built unless there is a large scale redevelopment next door.


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## citydreams (Sep 9, 2004)

..and there isn't?  How much longer can the Loughborough estate go without redevelopment?


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## editor (Sep 9, 2004)

Bring back East Brixton station!


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## prunus (Sep 9, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It won't be - LDA = London Development Agency, another part of the Mayor's family of bodies.    As I posted ages ago, I don't see any station being built unless there is a large scale redevelopment next door.



How large scale do you mean?  Is this (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=81622) the kind of thing (102 flat block built on the site of the industrial buildings on Belinda Road), or do you mean something like a shopping/office centre being built on the Higgs Industrial Estate?


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## lang rabbie (Sep 9, 2004)

prunus said:
			
		

> How large scale do you mean?  Is this (http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=81622) the kind of thing (102 flat block built on the site of the industrial buildings on Belinda Road), or do you mean something like a shopping/office centre being built on the Higgs Industrial Estate?



Pass

Current health and safety, Disability Discrimination Act and other requirements for new railway infrastructure mean that new platforms at LJ will require widening the high level viaduct.   Cost figures I've heard bandied about were £15+ million (as against £50 million for Brixton).   

BTW I've never seen anything on paper to support these.  

I suppose they'd need to calculate some implicit value for the social benefits from the new station (e.g. easier access to jobs market for local residents) that would justify some extra public sector contribution, with the balance being expected to come from the development deal.

Edited to add: Just phoned my railway industry source, who mentioned that only this week the Strategic Rail Authority published a "Comprehensive guide to planning new railway stations"

Doesn't sound too encouraging...




			
				SRA press release said:
			
		

> The document explains that introducing new stations is a complex process that requires detailed assessment and appraisal. This work needs to consider a wide range of issues including the commercial / economic, operational and technical impacts of the proposal. It also makes clear that with limited funding available to the rail industry, the financing of proposed station developments - both in terms of capital costs and ongoing revenue support - should be considered from the outset.


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## boomclick (Sep 13, 2004)

latest TFL plans unveiled.  dunno about you but i think it looks quite promising...

http://www.colourcountry.net/images/south-london-underground.png




<editor: click on link for thumping great map>


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## boomclick (Sep 13, 2004)

ooops.  sorry.  that was bigger than i thought it was going to be...


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## lang rabbie (Sep 13, 2004)

plus there's the small matter of that map already having a thread all to itself


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## boomclick (Sep 13, 2004)

doh!   

that'll teach me to not read all the other threads before posting on one...


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## IntoStella (Sep 13, 2004)

boomclick said:
			
		

> doh!
> 
> that'll teach me to not read all the other threads before posting on one...


At least you're posting *something*... It's all a bit tumbleweed-tastic.


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## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2004)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> For your information...



   The consultants for the LDA are I notice going to do a study looking at LJ and Brixton both with and without a ELL station.Is this similar to the LDA ideas behind making certain areas "Cultural quarters" I wonder?I thought the LDA were already funding a worker looking at regeneration in Brixton and LJ.

  I can see the logice of putting Brixtion/LJJ station in the ELL.I wonder however if those who are keen on it realise it will make Brixton/LJJ more "desirable" for developers as certainly the land values/house prices will go up around where there are stations.

  This could lead to further gentrification of the area rather than more "social inclusion".I wonder if the LDA or TfL consultants are going to look at how this possible problem could be dealt with.

  Im going to the Coldharbour forum tonight for once-though i expect it will cover mainly this issue.


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## citydreams (Sep 15, 2004)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> The consultants for the LDA are I notice going to do a study looking at LJ and Brixton



How on earth do you know that...?  large pair of binoculars?


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## Gramsci (Sep 15, 2004)

citydreams said:
			
		

> How on earth do you know that...?  large pair of binoculars?



  Lang Rabbie posted it up earlier.


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## editor (Aug 4, 2005)

I've just added a new page about the now-vanished East Brixton station with lots of archive and modern pics.

Shame it looks like it's never going to reopen.


----------



## passenger (Aug 4, 2005)

just told my dad about this well cool


----------



## aurora green (Aug 4, 2005)

Makes me sad seeing those photos and realising just how much, that area has declined.


----------



## kea (Aug 4, 2005)

v interesting, ed - i always wondered why trains to peckham go through brixton but don't stop. it'd be damn convenient if it was re-instated!


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Aug 4, 2005)

I must go through there twice a day.

Wooden platforms, blimey.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 4, 2005)

Donna, you'd hate what has happened to the station. It's a club. Called 'Medussa'. As in;


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Aug 4, 2005)

Full of snakes, is it? Mirrors on the walls?


----------



## milesy (Aug 4, 2005)

there's a fishtank, but no snakes or mirrors. a few plastic chairs like a school hall when i last went there.


----------



## Bob (Aug 4, 2005)

milesy said:
			
		

> there's a fishtank, but no snakes or mirrors. a few plastic chairs like a school hall when i last went there.



I had a good night in there a few years back. Lots of pine on the walls...  

Is it still open?


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 4, 2005)

I think so, God, but the sign irritates me so much..I want to scrub out the extra s


----------



## Bob (Aug 4, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> I think so, God, but the sign irritates me so much..I want to scrub out the extra s



Does it actually have any sign that it's trying to be the Greek Medusa? 

And come to think of it the Greek Medusa would be written in Greek script so maybe there's more than one way of transliterating it.   

<ducks before he gets a slap>


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 4, 2005)

It's definitely meant to be Medusa, but the signwriter did Medussa. I know a couple of people who have worked there, including a guy who did a lot of the woodwork.


----------



## Giles (Aug 4, 2005)

Is it still open? I haven't seen anything advertised there for ages, and I know that they had an ongoing battle with the council over licencing and noise issues.

I always got the impression that they didn't quite have all the proper legalities in place to be a public nightclub, and were trying to get around the rules by claiming that events were "private parties" etc.

Giles..


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 4, 2005)

Why did the close it in the first place?  Something to do with the Victoria Line opening I assume?


----------



## rennie (Aug 4, 2005)

This morning, I saw a sign on a bus stop on Brixton Hill saying summthin abotu a garage night at medusa this weekend.


----------



## prunus (Aug 4, 2005)

Brilliant stuff!


----------



## Giles (Aug 4, 2005)

reNnIe said:
			
		

> This morning, I saw a sign on a bus stop on Brixton Hill saying summthin abotu a garage night at medusa this weekend.



They'll probably have some new bulletholes to fix next week then


----------



## oryx (Aug 4, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> I must go through there twice a day.
> 
> Wooden platforms, blimey.



They've still got wooden platforms at Queenstown Road & Battersea Park stations (though I'm not sure if they are still in use). I think they date from the same era as East Brixton.

Interesting pictures & article, editor.

It's a shame it's not re-opened, as it would be a useful link & would take pressure off the buses & Victoria Line - although maybe the site has changed, structurally, too much.


----------



## davesgcr (Aug 5, 2005)

Note the signals in the before and after shots have gone from 3 aspect to 4 aspect - ie greater capacity reinstalled when the route was resignalled in 1984. Technical detail I know.

I think it closed due to collapsing traffic levels and the cost of repair to the platforms etc - remember in 1975 - BR was on a tight budget and the priorities given to the Southern Region were to spend virtually nothing on inner suburban areas as overall traffic was falling and what little growth (then) was in the outer stretches.Come the evil day when the bridge examiner said it needed expenditure - then the case was made for closure.To be fair - the attractiveness of a 30 min service in an urban area was pretty low - I wold not think there is any hope of it repeoning due to cost and the huge pressure on the routes through Brixton into Victoria.

The whole timetable incidentally is "fixed" on the junctions near Canterbury Road - (as well as Herne Hill) and such is the pressure - even a 20 second saving on the "Atlantic and South London lines" - would be very welcome.


----------



## Wyn (Aug 5, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I've just added a new page about the now-vanished East Brixton station with lots of archive and modern pics.
> 
> Shame it looks like it's never going to reopen.


Very interesting  
So as there's a Camberwell Station Road presumably there was a Camberwell Station once upon a time - would it have been on the same line as East Brixton?


----------



## davesgcr (Aug 5, 2005)

You have made me get my Southern Region Track Plan book out now ! 

Camberwell Station was at Milepost 3.06 (from Blackfriars) - the Elephant Stn is 1.47m and Loughborough Jct is 3.48.There are 2 viaducts called Station Rd viaduct and Camberwell St viaduct - I think it closed in 1926 when the first colour light resignalling took place into Cannon St / Holborn Viaduct - even then - tram and bus competition slaughtered inner London stations. The railways were trying to be comptetive by quicker journeys into the City. "Southern Electric - fast , frequent trains to all parts" 

Lost in the same cull were Blue Anchor (3.31m from Charing Cross) and Spa Road (2.71) - between London Bridge and Deptford via Greenwich.Tram and bus competition on the Old Kent Rd in this case.     

East Brixton was on the up and down Catford loop lines between Canterbury Rd Jct and Cambria Jct - Canterbury Rd takes you from Victoria - via Brixton to Blackfriars - whilst Cambria faces west and takes you from Denmark Hill to Blackfriars etc. 

A very complicated piece of railway to plan and operate - one that takes years of experience to understand - the interactions are complex with flat junctions all over the place.


----------



## editor (Aug 5, 2005)

davesgcr - if you'd like to write a piece about the history and operational elements around East Brixton, I'd be happy to add it to the article!

editor <impressed with the level of knowledge being displayed!>


----------



## aylee (Aug 9, 2005)

Very interesting.

I really hope that once the Eurostars start running into St Pancras, we get a more frequent service on the Victoria to Orpington line.  Our part of South London has been neglected in the recent increase in services into and out of Victoria and London Bridge.  

In addition, Camberwell could desperately do with a station on the Blackfriars to Herne Hill line .... might reduce the traffic along Walworth Road as well.  Interesting to hear that there used to be one.


----------



## prunus (Aug 9, 2005)

aylee said:
			
		

> Very interesting.
> 
> In addition, Camberwell could desperately do with a station on the Blackfriars to Herne Hill line .... might reduce the traffic along Walworth Road as well.  Interesting to hear that there used to be one.




It was here:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.s...=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf
You can see where it was on the aerial photo - where the track separates and there is now greenery in the middle where the platforms were.

There was also another station between Loughborough Junction and Elephant at Walworth, here:
http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.s...=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf
- again you can see the space where it was, although it's much harder to see from the train - you can just make out where the stairs were (are?) although they are all blocked up now.

I see them most days!


----------



## Flavour (Aug 9, 2005)

This adds a whole new dimension to Mornington Crescent: Abandoned stations...

I saw this feature ages ago ed, it's been on the site for a while hasn't it? 

Top stuff anyway, the railways are underappreciated


----------



## Dhimmi (Aug 9, 2005)

Good piece, aside from the station shame the stone arch vanished somewhere between 48 and 76.


----------



## William of Walworth (Aug 9, 2005)

prunus said:
			
		

> There was also another station between Loughborough Junction and Elephant *at Walworth*, here:
> http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.s...=4&ar=Y&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf
> - again you can see the space where it was, although it's much harder to see from the train - you can just make out where the stairs were (are?) although they are all blocked up now.
> 
> I see them most days!



Must check this out!!!   

I'd like to see if there's any external traces just off John Ruskin St. Would be only a minor diversion en route to the Beehive (SE17) from my flat ...


----------



## prunus (Aug 10, 2005)

This thread piqued my interest again enough to go googling about, and I found this:
http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/l/loughborough_junction/index.shtml

- Look at the cool photo of Loughborough Junction in its heyday (first photo on page)!  'To The West End'!, 'To The City'!

Can anyone work out the modern angle equivalent for the photo?  It's not clear enough for me.  Like the bonnets though.


----------



## lang rabbie (Aug 10, 2005)

*Walworth station*




			
				William of Walworth said:
			
		

> Must check this out!!!
> 
> I'd like to see if there's any external traces just off John Ruskin St. Would be only a minor diversion en route to the Beehive (SE17) from my flat ...



Before the arrival of electric trams it was a very busy station

1876 cartoon


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 10, 2005)

prunus said:
			
		

> This thread piqued my interest again enough to go googling about, and I found this:
> http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/stations/l/loughborough_junction/index.shtml
> 
> - Look at the cool photo of Loughborough Junction in its heyday (first photo on page)!  'To The West End'!, 'To The City'!
> ...



It's looking up Loughborough Road from Hinton Road on the junction with Coldharbour Lane.  Looking at that old photo that little newsagents would be on the right.  Don't forget that it's all estates up that road now so the photo looks nothing like what it does now.


----------



## prunus (Aug 10, 2005)

PacificOcean said:
			
		

> It's looking up Loughborough Road from Hinton Road on the junction with Coldharbour Lane.  Looking at that old photo that little newsagents would be on the right.  Don't forget that it's all estates up that road now so the photo looks nothing like what it does now.



Ah I see, I was assuming it was looking along Coldharbour Lane in some way.

I'll get my shiny new digital camera down there and see if I can't replicate it as best I can.


----------



## editor (Aug 10, 2005)

I'm going to be doing a feature on Loughborough Junction next!


----------



## prunus (Aug 10, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I'm going to be doing a feature on Loughborough Junction next!



Ah, well in that case maybe I'll leave it to you - I don't think my photographic skills can compete.

Looking forward to it.


----------



## davesgcr (Aug 10, 2005)

When the Eurostars come off (April 07) - then there will be something like 4 slots an hour released on the Brixton - Orpington section (much of which is 2 track of course) - plus a lot more flexibilty in timetabling over the junctions at Herne Hill (from Blackfriars and towards Tulse Hill & Streatham) 

My best guess is that the first call for extra trains will be on the Thameslink routes which have bad crowding in the peaks - though outer suburban off Kent will also be recast with the inveitable chance for a better service pattern further in .

South London suburban generally is growing fast and there are some cunning plans being worked on now to (a) reduce overcrowding (b) get a better overall plan as there are bits which have less peak services than off peak because of the junction bottlenecks at Herne Hill / Tulse Hill and the Thameslink conundrums.

Trust me - there are some good folk out there using their train planning skills !l


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 10, 2005)

[anorak mode]Part of a housing development on Flaxman Road had to be demolished to make way for the railway viaduct at Loughborough Junction about 4 years after it was built. Also that viaduct is the longest in the world AND the bit where it branches off towards Denmark Hill is the tightest curve on a railway in the UK [/anorak mode]


----------



## oryx (Aug 11, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> [anorak mode]



   Over the last few years I have started to get really interested in this sort of thing. I have got to the stage where I want to take a camera down to Queenstown Road station to record the wooden platform & also the ancient booking hall complete with 50s British Rail signs (the sort of three stretched ovals on top of each other, which was superseded by the parallel lines with zigzags  ). When I pull into a station I look for really old trains in the sidings.

Maybe I misspent my teen years NOT trainspotting! 

(My brother's best mate was an inveterate trainspotter & went on to become head archivist at the Railway Museum, always said they should film his life & call it "Smack". <coat got & everything>)


----------



## supercity (Aug 11, 2005)

Cor, this discussion's getting intriguingly technical.

I've got a more basic question: why is it that the trains from Brixton overground terminate at Victoria? I've always thought that if Waterloo-bound trains made a stop at Brixton, more people would use the overground. Never understood why it replicates the underground route. Be handy for the West End, too.


----------



## lang rabbie (Aug 11, 2005)

Mrs Magpie said:
			
		

> [anorak mode]Also that viaduct is the longest in the world [/anorak mode]



World   
Possibly the longest brick viaduct in Europe?

According to Wikipedia (no source cited) The London Chatham & Dover Railway's main civil engineering achievements included:


> Viaduct carrying extension to Blackfriars: 742 brick arches, 94 girder bridges



BUT I thought the original 1836 London to Greenwich railway (now the track from London Bridge to just beyond Deptford Creek) still held the record for longest single viaduct with 978 arches covering something approaching four miles.







I know the Thameslinks are slow but is it really that far from Blackfriars to LJ.  

[rustles anorak and awaits arrival of Isambard]


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2005)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> I have to admit that I thought the original London to Greenwich railway (now the track from London Bridge to just beyond Deptford Creek) still held the record for longest single viaduct.


I thought Stockport's viaduct was the  largest brick viaduct in Europe:
http://www.stockport.gov.uk/content.../buildingsandstructures/railwayviaduct?a=5441
http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/ic7/49text.html

Facts!

At 111 feet or 33.85 metres high, Stockport's railway viaduct is Western Europe's biggest brick structure and represents a major feat of Victorian engineering.

Eleven million bricks were used in its construction - if laid end to end they would stretch 1,500 miles! At one stage, 600 workers were employed in shifts, day and night, to the complete the massive structure.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 11, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I thought Stockport's viaduct was the  largest brick viaduct in Europe:
> http://www.stockport.gov.uk/content.../buildingsandstructures/railwayviaduct?a=5441
> http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/ic7/49text.html
> 
> ...



It really is incredible in the flesh too.  It's very high and very long.  I was there at the weekend.  It's amazing to think they built that in the 19th Century.


----------



## PacificOcean (Aug 11, 2005)

supercity said:
			
		

> Cor, this discussion's getting intriguingly technical.
> 
> I've got a more basic question: why is it that the trains from Brixton overground terminate at Victoria? I've always thought that if Waterloo-bound trains made a stop at Brixton, more people would use the overground. Never understood why it replicates the underground route. Be handy for the West End, too.



Until Eurostar built a connection just after Wandsworth Road station, as far as I know there was no physical connection between Brixton and Waterloo.

Even if it did go to Waterloo, I doubt many would use it.  It only has trains every 30 mins and it's a bit of a badlands area, even in the day.

Most people would still use the tube.


----------



## lang rabbie (Aug 11, 2005)

Googling for viaduct FACTS  revealed that the "lost" page on the ultra-spoddish www.signalbox.org for the mysterious Loughborough Junction signal box  is back on line  








Time for another then and now photo, ed?


----------



## editor (Aug 11, 2005)

Oy! I'm already on the case of that oddball signal box and have (more or less) worked out where it was. Spot the vintage NF graffiti on the building next to it?


----------



## Droppin' (Aug 12, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I've just added a new page about the now-vanished East Brixton station with lots of archive and modern pics.
> 
> Shame it looks like it's never going to reopen.




Also, although not Brixton, this is quite cool in Clapham.

There are a few deep shelters built during the war in case of bombing, to house govt officials and papers etc.

The entrances are still there at the tube stations.

One was used as a temporary accomodation for loads of Jamaicans once.

http://freespace.virgin.net/roy.smith5/deepshelters.htm


----------



## supercity (Aug 12, 2005)

The deep level stations beneath the Northern Line were commissioned by home secretary Herbert Morrison during the war, for use as shelters. They follow the path of the Northern line, from Clapham up to Belsize Park, with shelters still visible at most points. The idea was to link them into a high-speed tube line after the war, like the RER in Paris. Needless to say, this being Britain, it never happened, and most of the shelters are now leased to a company called Security Archives, which keeps tapes for the BBC and government papers down there. The one at Tottenham Court Road is rumoured still to have wartime bunk-beds in place. Stockwell deep tube was used to house immigrants in the 50s, but is now leased by Security Archives. Conspiracy theorists will tell you that the line was actually at least partly built but the government decided it was too good for the people. 

I'll get me coat....

Oh, and if Brixton overground trains can't get to Waterloo, why not Charing Cross?


----------



## lang rabbie (Aug 13, 2005)

supercity said:
			
		

> Stockwell deep tube was used to house immigrants in the 50s...



The veracity of this statement, and other deep shelter miscellanea are still under debate on this thread in the London forum


----------



## St Elsewhere (Aug 13, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> I thought Stockport's viaduct was the  largest brick viaduct in Europe:
> http://www.stockport.gov.uk/content.../buildingsandstructures/railwayviaduct?a=5441
> http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/ewm/ic7/49text.html
> 
> ...


It can't compete with the Stockport Viaduct, but I was always impressed by the Dollis Brook Viaduct  between Finchley Central & Mill Hill East - at 60ft the highest point above street level on the tube network - it serves one station.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 13, 2005)

[disclaimer] My viaduct at Loughborough Junction facts were all gleaned from a local historian who has furnished me with many a railway fact. [/disclaimer]


----------



## JohnsonD (Aug 28, 2005)

I imagine those stations would be pretty horrible at night if they were around now-no shops or main roads particularly close


----------



## Red Faction (Oct 30, 2005)

just to clarify:

phase 2 of the ELL extension will include brixton but it will cost a lot and thats why its been put back?

or is it a DEFINITE no?

also
where about in clapham will it be?
it says clapham high street

that could be anywhere between clapham north and clapham common right?


----------



## laptop (Oct 30, 2005)

Red Faction said:
			
		

> phase 2 of the ELL extension will include brixton but it will cost a lot and thats why its been put back?



Brixton isn't on the Phase 2 map at all. 




			
				Red Faction said:
			
		

> that could be anywhere between clapham north and clapham common right?



No, it's the existing Clapham High Street station, right by Clapham North, 

TFL map (220k PDF) 

The TFL map shows what looks a lot like a Victoria exension to Herne Hill, though it's ambiguous...

Streetmap


----------



## Red Faction (Oct 30, 2005)

laptop said:
			
		

> Brixton isn't on the Phase 2 map at all.


   



			
				laptop said:
			
		

> No, it's the existing Clapham High Street station, right by Clapham North,


 oh- thats not too bad then



			
				laptop said:
			
		

> The TFL map shows what looks a lot like a Victoria exension to Herne Hill, though it's ambiguous...




cheers laptop


----------



## Poi E (Oct 31, 2005)

Bits of clearing being done down at New Cross and New Cross Gate. Installation of some substations or other equipment. I guess it's just reinstatement, really...


----------



## happyshopper (Oct 31, 2005)

Gramsci said:
			
		

> I can see the logice of putting Brixtion/LJJ station in the ELL.I wonder however if those who are keen on it realise it will make Brixton/LJJ more "desirable" for developers as certainly the land values/house prices will go up around where there are stations.
> 
> This could lead to further gentrification of the area rather than more "social inclusion".



This is true of any improvement in transport infrastructure. The logical extension of the argument is to campaign for the closure of the Victoria Line.


----------



## Dan U (Oct 31, 2005)

i wouldnt hold your breath on any of this..

my parents moved to sutton in the 70s when there was plans for the tube extending out there.. there still waiting! (no bad thing tho!)

TFL and LT etc before them have been banging on about the ELL and Tram extension for years. 

i think the ELL will happen. 

however, seeing whats happening in leeds with their much delayed tram project, i think that form of transit sadly is under a lot of pressure. 

Leeds just isnt happening, despite huge amounts of prep work and long periods of roadworks, compulsory purchases and the like. baffling.

dark mutterings of the financial viablity of croydon/manchester/sheffield..

lets hope ken see past all that..


----------



## William of Walworth (Oct 31, 2005)

Dan U said:
			
		

> <rapid transit/tram systems>
> 
> lets hope ken see past all that..



The glossy stuff I have about the Elephant redevelopment (which I'll post more about soon, honest  ) very definitely predicts the North South tram link will happen ...


----------



## Poi E (Nov 1, 2005)

Dan U said:
			
		

> i think the ELL will happen.
> .



It is happening!


----------



## Dan U (Nov 1, 2005)

William of Walworth said:
			
		

> The glossy stuff I have about the Elephant redevelopment (which I'll post more about soon, honest  ) very defisnitely predicts the North South tram link will happen ...



well thats good news for sure. the more public transport the better.

i had read this yesterday 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/story/0,,1604971,00.html

through a previous job a couple of years ago i was aware of the tram scheme in leeds and saw for myself all the prep works that were going on (roadworks etc)... and now all bets could be off and worse the National Audit Office calling the other tram networks 'a triumph of hope over experience'

its also my experience in london that lots of ideas are mooted and take a long time to come to fruition. the ELL has been on the cards in various guises for donkeys years.


----------



## upthejunction (Jan 12, 2006)

I have been writing to the East London Line Project about why it does not stop at either Brixton or Loughborough Junction despite going through both stations (as far as I could work out - the stops either side are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street).  They have replied it is not financially feasible and while it does not actually go through Loughborough Jn it goes v.close.  They have also suggested we have good enough public transport in Brixton.

I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest.  They appear to concede that the train actually has to go through Brixton BR station but are slightly more shy about conceding that the reason it does not stop here is be cause it is a "gentry class" train linking Highbury and Islington with Clapham.

My next step is to send a Freedom of Info Act request about the feasibility study and or finaces of the ELLP and then approach MPs, etc, or possibly even consider JR-ing them if it is totally outrageous.  I would prefer not to do all this myself and so am looking for anyone else who has doen, is doing, or will do something.  Apart from anything don't Brxtonites deserve every opportunity to leave Brixton that can be afforded them?


----------



## rennie (Jan 12, 2006)

but why don't you wanna stay in brixton? why this rush to leave? Take the tube, the victoria line is ok.


----------



## Callie (Jan 12, 2006)

upthejunction said:
			
		

> I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest.  They appear to concede that the train actually has to go through Brixton BR station but are slightly more shy about conceding that the reason it does not stop here is be cause it is a "gentry class" train linking Highbury and Islington with Clapham.




so youre saying it doesnt stop at Brixton because some rifraf might board?? or am i misunderstanding?


----------



## upthejunction (Jan 12, 2006)

*Pain*

Because it is a real pain at present to get quickly to Clapham or Clapham Junction by public transport.  The line uses pre-existing track and I enclose the proposed route - you decide whether it seems odd that it does not stop in the Brixton area

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-route-map.shtml


----------



## upthejunction (Jan 12, 2006)

*Irony*




			
				Callie said:
			
		

> so youre saying it doesnt stop at Brixton because some rifraf might board?? or am i misunderstanding?



I have suggested this to them, though obviously I do not believe it of a body dedicated to serving the population of london.  However, if you look at the route there seems to be a very large gap in the Lambeth/Brixton area which appears to be have a much longer disctance between stations than elsewhere on the line.


----------



## jimmer (Jan 12, 2006)

When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.


----------



## Derian (Jan 12, 2006)

I definitely want it to go to Brixton. Even Loughborough Junction or around there would be OK. I want to be able to have a tube journey straight to Brixton


----------



## rennie (Jan 12, 2006)

jimmer said:
			
		

> When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.




that's true. it's easier to get to central london than to south east london.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 12, 2006)

It's cos the Clapham line is the high-level one, which is not serviced by the current station) and it would therefore require an all-new station built way up in the air over existing shops and streets. In engineer's and planner's terms - a fucking nightmare


----------



## Derian (Jan 12, 2006)

Actually I remember a fairly long thread about this, Lots of useful info on there.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jan 12, 2006)

New readers start here:

www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-60693.html 

www.urban75.net/vbulletin/archive/index.php/t-73680.html

Edited to add - second link seems to be buggered!


----------



## Derian (Jan 12, 2006)

You found it! Well done.


----------



## silentNate (Jan 12, 2006)

I live in East London and it would be well handy if they did stop there...


----------



## Dan U (Jan 12, 2006)

(dons anorak)

any new public transport which crosses south london (as opposed to going from north to south) is a good thing in my book.

akaik there is only the

west croydon - balham loop (via w norwood)
thameslink loop (round sutton, wimbledon, slackbridge etc)
which connects up with the tram @ mitcham jct (wimbledon - beckenham)

surely it should connect up at all available stations, its not like the infrastructure isnt already there. 

its very difficult to traverse london, a train from brixton to clapham junction would also link up with the silverlink (iirc) loops round west london as well as the east benefits mentioned before.

i'll keep my eyes open for a petition


----------



## upthejunction (Jan 12, 2006)

*what ELLP have told me*

Their reply to me is:

"Further to our response to you in August last year regarding Brixton station, the reason this does not appear on the Phase 2 route is because the preferred site would have entailed building on an angled bend which is also on an incline (the station would be situated on a high viaduct). Accessibility to ground level would need to be included, and as previously informed, the total costs involved in building here would be prohibitively expensive. Loughborough Junction would entail building on an even higher viaduct, as it is at this point that it passes over the Thameslink Line viaduct.

Whilst stations at these points are not currently being considered, this does not preclude the opportunity to build them in the future if an appropriate source of funding could be found."

If anyone can tell me what they are talking about in Brixton (I think I know what they are talking about at LJ) I would be grateful as looking on the map it looks like the line from Denmark Hill to Clapham High St goes through the existing Brixton BR station. (see http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.s...srf&searchp=newsearch.srf&ax=531233&ay=175352)


----------



## corporate whore (Jan 13, 2006)

Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare. 

Imagine the chaos if huge cranes are sat in Atlantic Rd for weeks on end.

Loughbrough Junction's the pisser, though. Never has a station been so ill-named. So many services go _close_ to the station, but only one goes through..


----------



## upthejunction (Jan 13, 2006)

corporate whore said:
			
		

> Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare.



One Word.  Why?  Is the other track too smal or something.  Or is it too simple to use the existing track and station?  There is definitely a line that goes from Denmark Hill to Brixton and then to Clapham High St.  Has anyone got the feasibility study and how does C.Whore know the plan?


----------



## corporate whore (Jan 13, 2006)

Don't get me wrong, I'm not privy to TfL plans! I have, though, spent many a salubrious time waiting for trains at Brixton station, and know that the line from Denmark Hill to Clapham High Street passes above the line on which Brixton station is situated.

Thus, a station on that line would entail a new, second-level station being built above the existing station.

So, although I disagree with TfL's decision to bypass both Brixton and LJ on the ELL extension, I can see the point made in their reply to upthejunction.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 14, 2006)

corporate whore said:
			
		

> Doesn't go through, but over, the existing Brixton BR station. Would involve building new platforms 20 feet above the existing ones which, as someone already said, would be a logistical nightmare.
> 
> Imagine the chaos if huge cranes are sat in Atlantic Rd for weeks on end.
> 
> Loughbrough Junction's the pisser, though. Never has a station been so ill-named. So many services go _close_ to the station, but only one goes through..



whats a few weeks disruption in the greater scheme of things?


----------



## Callie (Jan 14, 2006)

Few few weeks? youre having a laugh arent you?!!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 14, 2006)

east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.

simple, really.

they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 14, 2006)

upthejunction said:
			
		

> One Word.  Why?  Is the other track too smal or something.  Or is it too simple to use the existing track and station?  There is definitely a line that goes from Denmark Hill to Brixton and then to Clapham High St.  Has anyone got the feasibility study and how does C.Whore know the plan?



It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.

I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.


----------



## Callie (Jan 14, 2006)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.
> 
> simple, really.
> 
> they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.




is now the time to tell you that the circle line isnt really a circle? and that the northern line goes south of the river? ((((pickman's))))


----------



## netbob (Jan 14, 2006)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.
> 
> I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.



That was why the council brought Brady's wasnt it? To demolish/alter it to make space for the ELL.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 14, 2006)

I've no idea,to be honest. I'm not an expert at all, I was just responding to the suggestion that what setting up the line was a very easy task, which it clearly isn't.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jan 14, 2006)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> It runs across the other track. It's a completely different line, there's no way you could use the track that the current platforms serve.
> 
> I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.



Am I right in thinking that all of the ELL plans have assumed that trains for the ELL would run all the way along the *"High Level" * (LB&SCR) line - the route currently taken by South London Line trains that stop at Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street, and now run fast through central Brixton to Denmark Hill and Peckham Rye.   Services on this line once stopped at the lost East Brixton  station,

What isn't clear is whether anyone has ever looked at the feasibility of running them along the *"Low Level" * (SE&CR) line?

The 1894 map of Brixton shows that the low level station used to have four platforms:






one of which used to be built out into Brixton Station Road:






These two northern platforms were served by trains running east-west, although (not having a Bradshaw's Railway Comapanion of the era to hand) I'm not sure of their exact pattern of services.

I suspect that what we have is a fossilised service pattern reflecting the division of Victoria station between the two rival Victorian railway companies - still obvious at Victoria until about 1990. 

Once the timetabling "slots" for Eurostar trains are no longer required when the terminus move from Waterloo to Kings Cross (from 2008?), I would have thought that more flexible timetabling allowing trains to move between the two sets of tracks between Brixton and Clapham High Street has to be a possibility.

[Edited add: removes anorak before going to pub]


----------



## jchanning (Jan 15, 2006)

I would like access to the East London line in Brixton because it links into the Jubilee line at Canada Water.  This would give much better access to Canary Wharf and a lot of East London and Essex from South London.


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2006)

<peers at anorak, realises it won't ever fit  >

Brixton is my local centre it's where I shop, socialise sometimes and so on.  It's also my local tube and train station.

It's also a terminus on a major tube line and a railway station, meaning it's a massive bus hub just where the trunk road to Brighton narrows.  It's expected to become a tram terminus.  It's one of the most important transport interchanges in London, used by countless people who don't live locally and wouldn't come anywhere near if they had some way of avoiding it.

How will campaigning for yet another transport interchange concentrated in the same small space improve the lives of local people, most of whom don't commute to Canary Wharf?


----------



## citydreams (Jan 15, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> It's one of the most important transport interchanges in London, used by countless people who don't live locally



Are you 100% confident that the tram is coming to Brixton?   I've not seen how TfL Trams is progressing with the plans.  But other cities are moving away from Trams due to the cost benefits of automated buses.

When the ELL is up and running Brixton will no longer be the preferred option for loads of commuters.

Opening up Brixton to the Docklands gives us access to jobs.  Allowing us transfer to Peckham would free up some of the road space - ever seen an empty 345 bus?  

You say that Brixton is a major hub, but it's not a patch on Clapham which suddenly finds itself with another two tube stations.


----------



## newbie (Jan 15, 2006)

I don't think the tram has been finalised yet.  It sems to me there's an implicit assumption that it's in the interests of brixton that both the tram and ELL line land here.  I'm not saying it's not, but I do think it's an assumption that needs to be investigated and explicitly proved.


----------



## jchanning (Jan 15, 2006)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Opening up Brixton to the Docklands gives us access to jobs.



Absolutely, the impact of this should not be understimated.


----------



## THE WARRIOR (Jan 17, 2006)

*links to questions raised by Val Shawcross*




			
				upthejunction said:
			
		

> I have been writing to the East London Line Project about why it does not stop at either Brixton or Loughborough Junction despite going through both stations (as far as I could work out - the stops either side are Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street).  They have replied it is not financially feasible and while it does not actually go through Loughborough Jn it goes v.close.  They have also suggested we have good enough public transport in Brixton.
> 
> I know there was a petition about htis some time ago but has there been any organised info digging with a view to a proper protest.
> 
> ...


----------



## citydreams (Jan 17, 2006)

If money was only available for one station then my preference would be for a stop at Loughborough Junction to add to the development of the area, served by a shuttle bus that goes around Brixton.


----------



## Yossarian (Jan 17, 2006)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> east london line trains should not stop at brixton or loughborough junction because neither brixton nor loughborough junction are in east london.
> 
> simple, really.
> 
> they should give something going to brixton or loughborough junction a different name.




A lot of the stations on the East London line are in areas most people would class as South London, are you planning to firebomb them in the name of the Pedant's Revolutionary Front?


----------



## tarannau (Jan 17, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> <How will campaigning for yet another transport interchange concentrated in the same small space improve the lives of local people, most of whom don't commute to Canary Wharf?



To be honest though I'd love a way of getting to work in Clapham Junction more quickly than at present - it used to take me less time to reach Camden in the mornings.



It's an unpleasant choice between the 35 and 37, thus meaning that you'll get stuck behind countless 4x4s as your crawl past the common at school run time. Failing that I can catch a tube to Vauxhall at extra cost and come back via train to Clapham Junction. Sucky, sucky, sucky....


----------



## lang rabbie (Jan 17, 2006)

Yossarian said:
			
		

> Are you planning to firebomb them in the name of the Pedant's Revolutionary Front?



Does the Lambeth cell consist of the same group of drinkers at the Priory Arms who claim to be the local chapter of the Militant Grammarians of Massachusetts.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 18, 2006)

*Any action planned?*

Looking at the proposed ELL map all the stations are pretty evenly spaced until you get to our bit of South London. It all looks very suspicious to me.

The question of expense seems a bit of a red herring to me. If they coped with all the problems of the Docklands Railway I'm sure they could build us a station in Brixton.

I would definitely agree with a Brixton station. Increasing transport links will increase opportunities for both residents and local businesses.

Is any action planned? Council meetings to lobby, etc. etc?


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2006)

tarannau said:
			
		

> To be honest though I'd love a way of getting to work in Clapham Junction more quickly than at present - it used to take me less time to reach Camden in the mornings.



Yeah, I understand that, and I sympathise with it.  But, as we've discussed before, increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation. There are no easy answers to any of this, which is why it's necessary to critically examine the assumption that better transport links is automatically a good thing for the people you and I both care about, as well as being good for those I, at any rate, am rather more ambivalent about. 



btw, depends where you live, obviously, but bus to Steatham Hill station and then a train to CJ works for me when I need it.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 18, 2006)

*How patronising*




			
				newbie said:
			
		

> Yeah, I understand that, and I sympathise with it.  But, as we've discussed before, increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation. There are no easy answers to any of this, which is why it's necessary to critically examine the assumption that better transport links is automatically a good thing for the people you and I both care about, as well as being good for those I, at any rate, am rather more ambivalent about.
> 
> 
> 
> btw, depends where you live, obviously, but bus to Steatham Hill station and then a train to CJ works for me when I need it.



There are a lot of people in Brixton who would actually approve of better transport  and higher propery prices. This is not just restricted to new residents but also  includes the multi-racial community that has been living here for generations.

For you to preach what opportunities Brixton residents should and shouldn't have I find very patronising. I think we are worth more that.


----------



## citydreams (Jan 18, 2006)

Hey timothysutton,

I'm sure Newbie will answer on his own accord, but he doesn't mean to be patronising.  I've found his point of view to be that one must explicitly prove how any change is beneficial.  He wants change as much as anyone, just not for the sake of change.  

hope that helps


----------



## billythefish (Jan 18, 2006)

Surely it's a no brainer that the ELL should link to tube stations where possible? There is a huge gap around Brixton, Loughborough which seems inexpicable to me. At the very least, it should link with the Victoria line at Brixton.


----------



## paolo (Jan 18, 2006)

billythefish said:
			
		

> Surely it's a no brainer that the ELL should link to tube stations where possible? There is a huge gap around Brixton, Loughborough which seems inexpicable to me. At the very least, it should link with the Victoria line at Brixton.



It's a cost thing.

When they are comitted to building new track (e.g. the Jubilee extension) then they will build the interchanges. This extensions is unfortunately a much lower budget thing - repurposing existing track.


----------



## newbie (Jan 18, 2006)

cheers citydreams, you & I have bickered before but it's nice to know that you don't distrust my motives whatever you think of my views 




			
				timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> There are a lot of people in Brixton who would actually approve of better transport and higher propery prices. This is not just restricted to new residents but also includes the multi-racial community that has been living here for generations.
> 
> For you to preach what opportunities Brixton residents should and shouldn't have I find very patronising. I think we are worth more that.



At least you're honest enough to equate massive public investment in a new station with higher property prices.  Usually it takes a few pages and more than 7 posts before that sort of agenda becomes apparent. 

There are a lot of people in Brixton full stop.  Of course there's a divergence of views.  I'll take your word for it that you can talk for the "multi-racial community that has been living here for generations" and know their priorities for the area.  No doubt they've all made a point of telling you that all they want is a few more grand on the price before they can sell up and move away.  Or is it only those that buy based on expectation of profit, proximity to transport and primary school catchment area that think like that, d'you reckon?


----------



## TeeJay (Jan 18, 2006)

upthejunction said:
			
		

> Because it is a real pain at present to get quickly to Clapham or Clapham Junction by public transport.  The line uses pre-existing track and I enclose the proposed route - you decide whether it seems odd that it does not stop in the Brixton area
> 
> http://www.tfl.gov.uk/rail/initiatives/ell-route-map.shtml


I would love to be able to go from Clapham Junction to Brixton. It would save me a *lot* of time and hassel.


----------



## TeeJay (Jan 18, 2006)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> I've no idea how much it would cost to put in a new platform but it would clearly be a massive job. A few weeks of disruption wouldn't even get close to how long it would take IMO.


I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.

Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 18, 2006)

*Ghetto Brixton*

Why are some people so frightened of change? It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change. Meanwhile the world passes by (quite literally if we don't get the railway station) and we miss out. What a tragic legacy to leave behind.


----------



## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jan 18, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.
> 
> Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?



I don't disagree, and I'm sure it's possible given the investment.

My post was only in response to the suggestion that it was a ridiculously easy job, which it isn't.


----------



## netbob (Jan 18, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> Why are some people so frightened of change? It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change.



People get frightened because they see change happening and feel priced out of it's outcomes (financially or socially).


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> It's this warped ghetto mentality that nothing should change.



what is?



In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?


----------



## Giles (Jan 19, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running - and why technology and know-how seems to have gone backwards since then, judging by how "impossible" so many things seem.
> 
> Or maybe its just that roads are now the number one priority whereas railways are treated like second-class projects?



It's not that things are "impossible", or that technology and know-how have been lost.

It must be remembered that a lot of suburban London was only really developed at the same time as, and largely because of, the newly built railways, so when the railways were being built, they were being built through largely open countryside.

And, the railways were not built with "taxpayers money" so there weren't endless arguments about which project should and should not received money.

Giles..


----------



## Crispy (Jan 19, 2006)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I wonder how the victorians managed to build so much railway infrastruture - many of which are still running



Probably because they had the massive wealth of the empire to fund it all. Plus far lower labour costs.


----------



## Veronicaball (Jan 19, 2006)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:
			
		

> I've no idea,to be honest. I'm not an expert at all, I was just responding to the suggestion that what setting up the line was a very easy task, which it clearly isn't.



The authorities are correct in reporting that the proposed East London line does not share the line of Loughborough Junction or Brixton Station as its "on the high line" that crosses these two other lines.  
HOWEVER the line rises from ground level after it runs along the north side of Ruskin Park before getting high enough to go above Thameslink just south of Loughborough Junction Station. This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station (there are signs that there used to be one called "Cambria Road").  There would then be a three to four minute walk to the existing Loughborough Junction station (and on many underground interconnections the walk between lines is as far).  
This would be a cheap and possible solution - but don't expect the powers that be to look at the really feasible answers for then the aurgument about costs would be revealed for what it is - an excuse!


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 19, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> what is?
> 
> 
> 
> In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?



As the poll is indicating, better transport links would be of great interest to a lot of people. Maybe if you got out more you would think that too.


----------



## citydreams (Jan 19, 2006)

Veronicaball said:
			
		

> This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station!



Agreed! It would be perfect for me personally 

But there's already a stop at Denmark Hill just a few hundred metres further.


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> As the poll is indicating, better transport links would be of great interest to a lot of people. Maybe if you got out more you would think that too.



Instead of yet another piece of gratuitous rudeness, how about answering the question.


----------



## Giles (Jan 19, 2006)

Crispy said:
			
		

> Probably because they had the massive wealth of the empire to fund it all. Plus far lower labour costs.



I don't know about "wealth of the empire" directly - the railways were all private companies, out to make a profit, when they were built.

Giles..


----------



## Isambard (Jan 19, 2006)

What gets my goat is that this line has been on the cards for YEARS, moving into DECADES now. The high flyover at Brixton and the issues with providing an interchange there were in the railway press in the mid 80s. 

In typical British short sightedness it seems they haven't found a solution or simply saved up the money over 20 years to make a capital investment. Typical! Short sightedness and minimum investment / profit orientated.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 19, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> what is?
> 
> 
> 
> In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?



As I have said, it appears from the poll that residents DO want a Brixton Station. I don't think any of their interests could be considered unlawful so why not? Your theory seems to be suggesting they shouldn't be given the choice.


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2006)

so you're not prepared to even try and answer the question.

You're new here, so maybe you're under the misapprehension that we expect contentless insults and sweeping generalisations rather than informed debate. Since you're clearly incapable of the latter, and are equally clearly speaking from property price based self-interest is there any reason to further engage with you?


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 19, 2006)

*Start another thread*




			
				newbie said:
			
		

> what is?
> 
> 
> 
> In whose interests is it to concentrate transport interchanges in Brixton, and whose interests does it work against?



In whose interest might it be? The travelling public that's who. Maybe a thread for discussing property prices may be a better place for this discussion?


----------



## newbie (Jan 19, 2006)

that'll be a no then


----------



## articletwo (Jan 19, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> that'll be a no then



Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!

Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!


----------



## colacubes (Jan 19, 2006)

articletwo said:
			
		

> Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
> 
> Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!



Shut up you twat!


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 20, 2006)

*Latest news*

I have asked my local councillor, Jackie Meldrum, who has asked Val Shawcross (London Assembly member for Lambeth and Southwark). This is her reply:

' I did a lot of petitioning (1,000 sigs +) and campaigning on this and brought residents including Tim Gaymer from Loughborough in to see Ken. The phase one is going ahead at the moment, e.g the line to Crystal Palace and West Croydon, but the phase 2 arm isn't yet agreed.

The route could yet be changed to Wimbledon via Streatham and Tulse Hill but if phase 2 goes ahead via Denmark Hill there aren't currently platforms at Brixton to take it so there would be a 2 kilometre gap between stations (Denmark Hill to Clapham).

Ken agrees with me it would be mad to take it past Brixton without stopping so he would look for regeneration funding to put a new high level platform on at Brixton.

Its pretty clear that there wouldn't be a cost benefit case to install any completely new stations.  However, as the phase 2 development is not even under discussion at this stage  campaigning has quietened off. We won't pick up this issue, routing or extra platforms, until the debate goes live on the ELLX phase 2 again...'

If I hear any more I will let you guys know.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 20, 2006)

articletwo said:
			
		

> Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
> 
> Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!



Hail! King Newbie.


----------



## newbie (Jan 20, 2006)

articletwo said:
			
		

> Why stop at stopping the ELL stopping in Brixton? That is years away. There is much work to be down now fighting to close down all the existing transport links - tube, train, bus - that dare to venture to Brixton. All of them bringing in property-price obsessed carpet baggers. And, even worse, possibly allowing local people to travel outside Brixton to places of employment! Quelle horreur!
> 
> Clearly, once Brixton is cut-off from the rest of London, the next stage is a big wide moat. With a drawbridge. And newbie posted there checking the credentials of all those who attempt to enter, ensuring the purity of Brixton is not sullied by nasty outsiders. Bliss!




so can you tell me which groups a new station will favour and which it will harm?  Or is low quality abuse all you have to offer as well?


----------



## prunus (Jan 20, 2006)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Agreed! It would be perfect for me personally
> 
> But there's already a stop at Denmark Hill just a few hundred metres further.



It's actually more like 600m, and that only as the crow flies (or indeed the railway runs) - walking it's a lot further, especially after dusk when Ruskin Park is closed - nearly a mile round Coldharbour lane/Denmark Hill.

I think this is an excellent idea.  How can we get it in the minds of the powers that be?


----------



## articletwo (Jan 20, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> so can you tell me which groups a new station will favour and which it will harm?  Or is low quality abuse all you have to offer as well?


Oh come on, I rather hoped it was at least medium quality abuse.

I imagine an ELL station will favour all those people who want to come and go, to work, to play, to interact with the rest of the world. In fact, all the people who normally benefit from a new bit of transport infrastructure. I struggle to see who it would harm.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 20, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> increasing the desirability of Brixton is two edged: whilst improving the lives of the existing, and longterm, residents it also increases the pressures which are pricing them out of the area. Meanwhile failing to regenerate reinforces deprivation.



i understand your arguement about the gentrification of brixton but who uses public transport as well as commuters - many of whom are brixton residents and not just using it as a hub? 

public transport is used by a significant proportion of people on lower incomes, particularly in the more suburban areas.

thats why i'm in favour of it.


----------



## netbob (Jan 20, 2006)

The ELL is set to become the Outer Circle Line. If it stopped at evey station nonone would get anywhere! !


----------



## newbie (Jan 21, 2006)

articletwo said:
			
		

> I struggle to see who it would harm.



ok, let's split this into groups.  

*Winners*
Brixton residents who want to travel would gain from a station. That may seem a bit obvious, but there we are.
add to that some other travellers
non-residents who want to visit Brixton
non-residents who use Brixton as a hub

then there's the two groups ts1 champions. Those who currently own property in Brixton could expect to gain from the increased desirability of the area.  Business would expect to capitalise on both increased commuter activity and the richer people buying into the area.

Then there's the same sharks who've got their eyes on Revitalise.  Property developers, construction companies and the rest who'll want to amalgamate a station project with redeveloping the area around the Rec and Popes Road carpark.  The bigger the scheme the greater the profit potential.

*Non-winners*
Brixton residents who seldom or never travel, or who have little desire to go to Clapham, Peckham or beyond will only gain indirectly, if at all.

Like memespring says, those who use the ELL from Peckham to Clapham will have increased journey times.

those ts1 conveniently ignores: the majority of locals who are not property owners, for whom rising local property prices reduces opportunities to rent or buy in the area. The quirky local businesses priced out as the multiples seek to capitalise as Brixton moves upmarket. 

And then there's the opportunity costs. Where is the money this station will cost _not_ being spent? LJ perhaps?  Is Brixton the place most in need of investment/ is this investment what Brixton needs most? 

Finally there might even be a few locals who don't want ever more people getting off buses, seething on the pavements, hopping on a train and leaving. And some who don't want a major construction site planted in the middle of the market, or who'd prefer a local shopping centre to an enhanced transport hub.



Ok that's a start.  It's not hard to identify other groups.  Maybe some of this is too broad, and needs to be defined more clearly. Some groups are numerically bigger than others, some economially more important, some have political clout, some are easily ignored.  Obviously there is overlap, individuals  don't fit into convenient boxes.  

Equally obviously in the minimum 5-10 years it'll take before there's any sign of this station many/most of the people reading this thread will have moved away from the area, so immediate, personal self-interest shouldn't be the sole consideration.


This station may be a good strategic investment of public funds. It may not.  The case hasn't yet even been argued, let alone proven. 




oh, and no, it was crap abuse


----------



## citydreams (Jan 21, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> This station may be a good strategic investment of public funds. It may not.  The case hasn't yet even been argued, let alone proven.



Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread?


----------



## cybertect (Jan 21, 2006)

Giles said:
			
		

> I don't know about "wealth of the empire" directly - the railways were all private companies, out to make a profit, when they were built.



To be perfectly honest, lots of people lost their shirts in the railway boom of the 1840s. It was like the Internet Bubble at the end of the 1990s with massive inflows of capital and very small returns being made on it.

The shake-out was with us all the way through the government legislated formation of the 'big four' railway companies (LNER, LMS, GWR and Southern) after WW1 and the nationalisation of rail after WWII through to the Beeching cuts of the 1960s when most of the smaller, wildly unprofitable lines disappeared.


----------



## netbob (Jan 21, 2006)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread?



You mean this one


----------



## Dan U (Jan 21, 2006)

but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links? 

would you deny those people the chance to get better jobs just because you dont want to see Brixton gentrifying? 

were you born in Brixton? or did you migrate in yourself? its a transistional area and has been for at least the last 50 years.


----------



## THE WARRIOR (Jan 21, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links?
> 
> As well as opportunities to travel faster than a 345 bus, by having interchange stations at all nodal interchanges the radial rail route can provide an efficient way to travel if a key route into central london is closed or experiencing delays, thereby saving a fortune in losses incurred due to transport delays, yet I do not think any finance model for a new station/interchange takes this into account


----------



## netbob (Jan 21, 2006)

For anyone who hasnt seen it before, this is what the transport map is due to look like one day (PDF):

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/downloads/pdf/press-releases/putting-transport-onthemap.pdf

One thing to bare in mind about the ELL not stopping in Brixton is that it isn't going to be a tube service, but a railway service run by TFL. Therefore it is bound to have less stops.


----------



## newbie (Jan 21, 2006)

citydreams said:
			
		

> Are you going to wait for a glossy magazine from the council before you vote on this thread?



I don't have enough of a view either way to vote.  I can see some advantages, some disadvantages, but overall I'm unclear, just now in 2006 when Revitalise, the road layout and the tram are all undecided, what the future of Brixton holds.  I'll do a kneejerk vote if you like, in which case it's against because the case for hasn't been properly made or proven.  But that's preliminary.

I don't understand why people lurch into a particular camp without asking, and expecting answers to, fundamental questions.  And what's more fundamental than 'whose interests does this serve'?

When the council or TfL produces a glossy I'll be asking the same question.


----------



## newbie (Jan 21, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> but Newbie what about the new areas of work that will be opened up by better transport links?
> 
> would you deny those people the chance to get better jobs just because you dont want to see Brixton gentrifying?



add that to the Pro side of the equation: better access for locals to jobs.  

There are lots of positives and negatives I haven't mentioned.  I'm trying to widen the discussion, not produce a definitive report.  A bunch of people saying they'd like to be able to get to Clapham Junction or Peckham easier than now is merely skimming the surface of this.




> were you born in Brixton? or did you migrate in yourself? its a transistional area and has been for at least the last 50 years.



I was born north of the river, but you might try explaining why the answers to the questions I've put are dependent on where I was born.  The questions are fundamental, who asks them isn't.  Whenever someone plays the man not the ball (as ts1 has been doing throughout) it's usually because their own arguments are poorly thought through and based on sectional self interest.


----------



## Maggot (Jan 21, 2006)

Veronicaball said:
			
		

> The authorities are correct in reporting that the proposed East London line does not share the line of Loughborough Junction or Brixton Station as its "on the high line" that crosses these two other lines.
> HOWEVER the line rises from ground level after it runs along the north side of Ruskin Park before getting high enough to go above Thameslink just south of Loughborough Junction Station. This patch which is beside EMPTY land - parallel with Bengworth Road (which has no residential dwellings) would be an obvious cheap place to put in a station (there are signs that there used to be one called "Cambria Road").  There would then be a three to four minute walk to the existing Loughborough Junction station (and on many underground interconnections the walk between lines is as far).
> This would be a cheap and possible solution - but don't expect the powers that be to look at the really feasible answers for then the aurgument about costs would be revealed for what it is - an excuse!


The land I think you're talking about has a huge London Electricity depot, on it and part of Kings College hospital, so it's not exactly empty.



I didn't know there was  Cambria Road station, I used to live there.


----------



## Dan U (Jan 21, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> I was born north of the river, but you might try explaining why the answers to the questions I've put are dependent on where I was born.  The questions are fundamental, who asks them isn't.  Whenever someone plays the man not the ball (as ts1 has been doing throughout) it's usually because their own arguments are poorly thought through and based on sectional self interest.



sorry, i wasnt playing the man and not the ball intentionaly.

the point i was trying to make is that Brixton has always been an area that has changed, people have left, people have come. it appeared to me from reading your posts that one of the reasons why you didnt want this interchange was a reluctance to see any further change in the area in a certain direction - i.e losing its feel and spirit and turning into just another clone suburb.

That I can understand, but only to a point.

connecting to an improved transport infrastructure is a bit of a no-brainer in my books, particularly this scheme.

As I've already mentioned about access to jobs (inwards and outwards) and also reduced traffic flows on the E-W roads - such as the S Circular has got to be a good thing. 

I dont neccesarily think it follows that a new station will be swiftly followed by an army of developers waving cheque books - can you see this happening in West Croydon when they get the tube (for example?)

There may be an increase in house prices i would agree but that isnt a big enough negative for me when balanced against all the positives.

anyway thats my views on it.


----------



## Maggot (Jan 21, 2006)

If it's not practical to build a station in the brixton area, then surely the whole argument about whether you want one or not is irrelevant.


----------



## newbie (Jan 21, 2006)

Dan U said:
			
		

> sorry, i wasnt playing the man and not the ball intentionaly.
> 
> the point i was trying to make is that Brixton has always been an area that has changed, people have left, people have come. it appeared to me from reading your posts that one of the reasons why you didnt want this interchange was a reluctance to see any further change in the area in a certain direction - i.e losing its feel and spirit and turning into just another clone suburb.
> 
> That I can understand, but only to a point.


no problem 

You're confusing me with someone else, possibly someone who no longer posts here.  I have some sympathy with the view, but it's not my primary concern, though it could be consequential.  

Desireability is increasingly polarising Brixton into an area lived in by an uneasy mix of people in social housing- who have limited choices- and youngish, prosperous people from elsewhere, who tend to stay for a few years and then move away. 

Some of the more vocal members of the latter group push schemes which benefit themselves and others like them, but which ignore, or harm, people who aren't like them. That is, they ignore the majority of people who live in the area.

So IMO it's worth being suspicious.  This is particularly true when major public investment is to be spent on something claimed as explicitly good for business and property owners.


----------



## articletwo (Jan 23, 2006)

You previously criticised a poster on this thread for "sweeping generalisations ". So let's examine this post against that test:



			
				newbie said:
			
		

> Desireability is increasingly polarising Brixton into an area lived in by an uneasy mix of people in social housing- who have limited choices- and youngish, prosperous people from elsewhere, who tend to stay for a few years and then move away.


What evidence is there that the mix is "uneasy" - e.g. is there opinion polling data that has examined this? What evidence is there that the mix is different from elsewhere in London, a city where rich and poor tend to live cheek by jowl? What evidence is there that people moving here are "youngish" - what is the average age of someone who moves to Brixton? How does that compare with the average age of people that move to London as a whole? What is the average length of time that people live in Brixton? What is the average length of time that people live in Brixton who have moved here in the last five years (to differentiate the average length of stay of an "incomer" from a long-term resident)? How does that compare to London as a whole?




			
				newbie said:
			
		

> Some of the more vocal members of the latter group push schemes which benefit themselves and others like them, but which ignore, or harm, people who aren't like them. That is, they ignore the majority of people who live in the area.



What evidence is there that one particular group is pushing particular schemes? Who are these vocal members? How do you know that some schemes ignore the "majority of people"? Examples please, with numbers benefitted and numbers dis-benefitted.




			
				newbie said:
			
		

> So IMO it's worth being suspicious.  This is particularly true when major public investment is to be spent on something claimed as explicitly good for business and property owners.



Evidence of the explicit claims of particular benefits to "business and property owners"? The TfL brochure on the ELL is headlined "Integration … Regeneration … Sustainability", and goes on to say that the "project will provide a catalyst for regeneration in some of the most deprived parts of the city."

Finally, the open-minded remain sceptical, examining the evidence. Only the paranoid are suspicious.


----------



## newbie (Jan 24, 2006)

there's this if you're after stats- the 'people' and 'housing' tabs paint the picture.  

If that doesn't work http://neighbourhood.statistics.gov.uk search on Lambeth (or on specific wards).

For the rest, I didn't come out of the egg yesterday and thems my observations.  You're welcome to find any evidence you can to show this station as universally a good thing.




			
				articletwo said:
			
		

> Finally, the open-minded remain sceptical, examining the evidence. Only the paranoid are suspicious.


Neat.  I'll try to remember that in future 

... whilst noticing that no-one is rushing forward to say that this station isn't likely to boost property prices and further squeeze housing for locals on lower incomes.


----------



## citydreams (Jan 24, 2006)

Newbie, with all your sitting on your hands waiting for the evidence (which I'm sure you'd be well qualified in producing) to materialise one can only assume that you're against the idea of a station until proven otherwise.


----------



## newbie (Jan 24, 2006)

I think that's exactly what I said above (#78): I'm open but agin it until someone shows different.  The onus is on those who think it's a good scheme to come up with some convincing reasoning about the social consequences.


----------



## citydreams (Jan 24, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> The onus is on those who think it's a good scheme to come up with some convincing reasoning about the social consequences.



Not at all.  The honus is on those that oppose change to prove that the status quo is better than the bright future.  

We're not talking about whether we should dig up the roads, or close post offices - this is about transport links for local people.  It's a no-brainer.  I could tell you how many man hours it would save to allow people a train-stop and you'd still prevaricate because not everyone has given their opinon yet.

*puts fence on the the pyre of local governement*


----------



## newbie (Jan 24, 2006)

You could but you haven't (and frankly you're a lot better at finding evidence than I'll ever be).  The social makeup of 'local people' will change if this station is built.

If a transport hub is such a no brainer why is increasing property prices the only wider social consequence anyone has suggested?  No-one seems prepared to think out loud about how it will affect those that aren't (currently) property owners.  I've watched prices shoot up and I've seen people reluctantly leave because they can't afford to move (buy or rent) within the area.  I don't see that as a no bainer good thing, sorry if my concerns are different from other peoples.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 24, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> ...The social makeup of 'local people' will change if this station is built.



Why not? If the social makeup of 'local people' hadn't changed we would still be living in a field.




			
				newbie said:
			
		

> ...increasing property prices is the only wider social consequence anyone has suggested?...



Wrong, I suggest you re-read.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 24, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> Why not? If the social makeup of 'local people' hadn't changed we would still be living in a field.
> 
> 
> 
> Wrong, I suggest you re-read.




Jesus Timothy, you're beginning to remind me of that patronising mini-git in that abysmal 'Sorry' sitcom. 

Whilst I'm not entirely in agreement with Newbie, there is a real issue about the changing characteristics of Brixton's population, which - for better or worse - has become an area heavily associated with immigration and a sense of community absent in many parts of London. The Windrush generation and a many generations of locals deserve better than to displaced by ever rising property value and a profit-before-community approach to property sales.

It's a wider issue than Brixton no doubt, but the discussion certainly deserves better than a shittily reductive jibe about people 'living in a field.'


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 24, 2006)

edit


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 24, 2006)

tarannau said:
			
		

> ...deserves better than a shittily reductive jibe about people 'living in a field.'



I am not being patronising or trying to make a cheap jibe. All I am trying to point out is that it was not that long ago Brixton WAS a green field:

Building started when Vauxhall Bridge first made the area a commutable suburb back in 1816. With the completion of the railway and tram in the late 1800s Brixton expanded radically and became a popular middle class neighbood. With the social upheavel of the turn of the century the middle class moved out and the working class moved in. By 1925 Brixton had become the major shopping and entertainment centre for South London with a notable Jewish population. Then in the 1940s and 1950s many of the immigrants who came to Britain from the West Indies settled in Brixton.

As you can see Brixton has, and always will, change. It's how it works.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 24, 2006)

Most of us are aware of the history of the area thanks. You're still coming across as a patronising twazzock. Either that or you really believe that grossly oversimplified nonsense about it having to work like that.

I'm not sure what 'it' is meant to be, but development doesn't necessarily have to follow the pattern of the past. Nor is it necessarily beneficial to hold your hands up and take no action to shape what happens next.


----------



## editor (Jan 24, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> I am not being patronising or trying to make a cheap jibe. All I am trying to point out is that it was not that long ago Brixton WAS a green field:


Err, I think regulars to this forum are fully acquainted with Brixton's past.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/index.html


----------



## Giles (Jan 24, 2006)

It's not only property owners who would benefit from better public transport links, surely? Anyone who commutes for work, or goes to and from to see friends, go out, etc, would also benefit. Might even mean less people driving, which is probably a good thing.

Giles..


----------



## Streathamite (Jan 24, 2006)

true; but the same could be said of the good folk of lewisham, camberwell, peckham, greenwich etc; the key thing is how would S London benefit as a whole from the various proposals....


----------



## lang rabbie (Jan 24, 2006)

It is only because Ken (and various other politicians of all colours) have been promoting the various routes proposed for the East London Line as a tube line that the estate agents and local papers have been over-selling it as a good news story for property-owners.

This is a big lie.
It will NOT run to tube frequencies
It will NOT have tube-type trains
AND (unless they completely reconstruct Canada Water's platforms, for which no budget has been identified) it will be limited to four car trains. 

It will be operated as an overground rail service by a network rail franchisee, with the Mayor's "London Rail" division of TfL providing some revenue funding. 

Despite this, I'm in favour of a Brixton station because it will give Brixton residents easier access to jobs in East London/Docklands.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 25, 2006)

*Brixton's past*




			
				editor said:
			
		

> ...acquainted with Brixton's past.
> 
> http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/index.html



Does this mean that you agree that change is inevitable?


----------



## tarannau (Jan 25, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> Does this mean that you agree that change is inevitable?



Do you only deal in gross, boneheaded oversimplifications timothy?

Of course some change is inevitable, but it's a nonsense to suggest that you can't help shape change. 

Without the efforts of squatters and the resistance of others for example- and I'm sure you'll know this from your local history - central  Brixton would have almost certainly turned out into another Elephant and Castle style concrete nightmare of high rises and flyovers.


----------



## timothysutton1 (Jan 25, 2006)

tarannau said:
			
		

> ...boneheaded oversimplifications?...



A simple "I agree" would have been more polite.


----------



## tarannau (Jan 25, 2006)

timothysutton1 said:
			
		

> A simple "I agree" would have been more polite.



But I don't agree with your statement, certainly not in the limited and leading way it's phrased.

As for politeness, may I suggest that you engage with the debate and the points made, not write smartarse leading statements in a patronising, oversimplified manner.


----------



## OpalFruit (Jan 25, 2006)

I agree with Lang Rabbie.

The other issues are more complex than 'better transport increases house prices and shaft the poor and the windrush generation' (meant as a short precis, not a dismissive parody).

Some of the Windrush generation in my family moved away because they wanted exactly the same things that the current genertion of property buyers want - good schools, less exposure to crime / drug dealers, and especially not to be associated with the more violent / drug-based opportunists. It wasn't poverty that forced them out.

Really poor people are not concerned with house prices, anyway. Even though Brixton is still lower than most other close-to-central London areas, home-owning has been out of reach for those living below the average wage.

The demographics of the area show high levels of unemployment, particularly male and  single - parent families (no judgment on their situation, must that it is economically harder). Lambeth also has a high ratio of residential to business and commercial property. What is needed is better education, better access to jobs, and more social housing. I don't see how a new transport links blocks these, and would surely increase the chnaces of people travelling to work, and attracting employers into the area.


----------



## newbie (Jan 25, 2006)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> I agree with Lang Rabbie.
> 
> The other issues are more complex than 'better transport increases house prices and shaft the poor and the windrush generation' (meant as a short precis, not a dismissive parody).



aye but even that level of complexity is better than the "sure beats a 37 bus" that we started with (also not intended as a dismissive parody).




> Really poor people are not concerned with house prices, anyway. Even though Brixton is still lower than most other close-to-central London areas, home-owning has been out of reach for those living below the average wage.



True, but those who grow up here are increasingly unable to compete with high achieving incomers to rent or buy and stay in the area.


----------



## newbie (Jan 25, 2006)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> It will NOT run to tube frequencies
> It will NOT have tube-type trains



Phase 2 (which is what we're talking about) is expected to run 16 trains each way per hour.  Every 4 minutes isn't far off tube frequencies.
source


----------



## OpalFruit (Jan 25, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> aye but even that level of complexity is better than the "sure beats a 37 bus" that we started with (also not intended as a dismissive parody).
> 
> I also agree (with you, I think) that it is worth examining the motives, aims and objectives of those proposing a scheme, as well as all the potential effects, whatever they may be.
> But I have seen much potentially beneficial action in Brixton in effect filibustered due to lengthy drawn out inability to make a decision, or collapsing in a chaos of in-fighting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 25, 2006)

...


----------



## newbie (Jan 25, 2006)

OpalFruit said:
			
		

> But I have seen much potentially beneficial action in Brixton in effect filibustered due to lengthy drawn out inability to make a decision, or collapsing in a chaos of in-fighting.



so true (along with corruption, incompetence and worse). There's still a need to scrutinise the benefits, costs and consequences of change though, because there are plenty of examples of change which has been done to this community and not for, or from, it.


----------



## lang rabbie (Jan 26, 2006)

newbie said:
			
		

> Phase 2 (which is what we're talking about) is expected to run 16 trains each way per hour.  Every 4 minutes isn't far off tube frequencies.
> source


What that refers to is the number of trains to all destinations served by the various branches of the southern ELL extension through the existing tunnel under the Thames...  



			
				TfL said:
			
		

> This equates to 12 trains per hour in each direction through the centre section. *When phase two is delivered, the frequency will increase to 16 trains an hour. * Phase one is expected to be in place by June 2010.


i.e. the route through Brixton gets 4 trains an hour - not a train every four minutes!


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 26, 2006)

fair enough, really, considering brixton's hardly ill-served by publick transport.


----------



## newbie (Jan 26, 2006)

lang rabbie said:
			
		

> i.e. the route through Brixton gets 4 trains an hour - not a train every four minutes!


----------



## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

Anyone got £15 million??!!




			
				Boris said:
			
		

> In a letter to Mr Hoon, Mr Johnson wrote: "I urge you to agree to this £15.5million contribution at the earliest opportunity." The extension to Clapham Junction would deliver "significant benefits for a relatively deprived area," he said.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...ail link/article.do?expand=true#StartComments


----------



## editor (Nov 20, 2008)

Without a new station interchange at Brixton, t'is rubbish.


----------



## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

Agreed..

Any idea how much extra is needed for that to happen?  

Any news on the Brixton Master Plan?


----------



## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Pickman's model said:


> fair enough, really, considering brixton's hardly ill-served by publick transport.



It can be ill served depending on where you're trying to get to, or if the Victoria line is out again.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

lang rabbie said:


> What isn't clear is whether anyone has ever looked at the feasibility of running them along the *"Low Level" * (SE&CR) line?
> 
> The 1894 map of Brixton shows that the low level station used to have four platforms:
> 
> ...



*picks up anorak*

So, fellow spods, why can't we do this? (existing phase 2 route in single orange line)






Add a flat junction inbetween Denmark Hill and Brixton, and reopen platforms on Brixton Station Road.

Who's got detailed train frequency knowledge?

And yes, I am drawing south london's rail network for fun


----------



## prunus (Nov 20, 2008)

Crispy I think I love you.

Anyway, and given it's been a three year bump on this thread I can't remember whether it was discussed, but could they not open the old East Brixton platforms more easily perhaps?


----------



## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

There's nothing left of East Brixton station - it would have to be all new platforms. And it's not as handy for interchange.
New platforms at Loughborough Junction are even harder to fit in btw. Railway platforms are long things...


----------



## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> Railway platforms are long things...



I think the carriages on the type of units that pass that way are 23.5m long?  A typical 8 carriage train would need a minimum of 188m (more like 200m probably) for a platform.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

The ELL trains are going to be 4-car units, so as long as main line trains won't be using the station, we can get away with 100m.


----------



## lang rabbie (Nov 21, 2008)

Crispy said:


> And yes, I am drawing south london's rail network for fun





(((Crispy)))


----------



## editor (Nov 21, 2008)

Crispy said:


> There's nothing left of East Brixton station - it would have to be all new platforms. And it's not as handy for interchange.
> New platforms at Loughborough Junction are even harder to fit in btw. Railway platforms are long things...


The problem with East Brixton was that the platforms were very narrow and the line is (apparently) on quite a slope.


----------



## laptop (Nov 21, 2008)

Crispy said:


> *picks up anorak*
> 
> So, fellow spods, why can't we do this? (existing phase 2 route in single orange line)
> 
> ...





Taking the length of the junction West of Peckham Rye [satellite] you'd be pushed to fit one between the underbridge ironwork where you've drawn it [here]. (Is it a camera artefact, or is there a nasty wobbly viaduct just east of there?) 

You could squeeze one in [here] but I mean "squeeze" - it'd butt straight onto an existing crossover.

If I read the photo correctly - a big if - [here] is a possibility. 

But, again, it's fairly close to other junctions, so I fear you may have to double or treble the impact on available paths compared to a new flat junction in open country.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 21, 2008)

Actually, looking at the satellite, there's scope for the junction just after you come out of the Denmark Hill bridge.


----------



## hipipol (Nov 21, 2008)

The cheapest and simplest solution is simply to reinstate the old platforms
However, it would mean points being laid on the bridge over the Blackfirars Herne Hill line(cheaper and more dangerous method) or by building flyover bridges - a bit tight on the old space along that line - unless it is done, before Denmark hill
I was looking at it on the way into work yeaterday- the prob being that some of the park, Warwick Gardens, would be lost - but then at one point that was going to be where the tunnelk for Eurostar was possibly going to emerge- dont recall much by the way of local opposition

Heres where I mean


----------



## lang rabbie (Nov 21, 2008)

hipipol said:


> I was looking at it on the way into work yeaterday- the prob being that some of the park, Warwick Gardens, would be lost - but then at one point that was going to be where the tunnelk for Eurostar was possibly going to emerge- dont recall much by the way of local opposition


 
Peckham Against the Rail Link (PEARL) were one of the most succesful campaign groups I've encountered.



> The campaigns against the Link were largely successful. The current route through London is the most acceptable route for many campaigning groups. The Parliamentary Commissioner for Administration reported in 1995 that one of the reasons for abandoning the route through Peckham, originally selected out of the four original proposals and abandoned in 1993, was the high levels of public opposition it aroused and which would have made it almost impossible for BR to secure planning permission. The success of the PEARL campaign can be attributed to the persistence of the campaigning group and the professional skills which it deployed:
> ‘I think the success of the organisation was that there were a lot of people round here of considerable acumen. It was not difficult to find lawyers, barristers and architects and professional people, all of whom were very able
> both to organise and to make themselves heard ... Many people regard it as one of the most effective campaigns, ever really. I've heard it said many times that it was a model of how a campaign should be organised.’
> (Kinrade interview, 2001).
> ...



Rootes, Adams, Saunders: Local environmental politics in England, University of Kent 2001


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## hipipol (Nov 24, 2008)

*Oh my*

And I lived just round the corner at the time....suspect twas in my wasted to fuck period!!!

Having examined the crossover just after Peckham Rye just this morning I realise there is actually no need for the bridges at all
The line to North Dulcih, Gypsy Hill etc already crosses tha London Bridge-Victoria line, a relaying of those points to permit cossing to the Catford - Victoria tracks as there is already a crossover in the other direction used by freight traffic would concentrate all at one point - thus reducing like fuck ups


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## PacificOcean (Nov 24, 2008)

I wonder why they never built a station at Brixton in the first place?

It also takes a strange detour from Victoria to Wandsworth Road via Battersea Park unlike the other lines going south east from Victoria,

I assume Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street used to be four platform stations as I saw a very old picture of Wandsworth Road station advertising trains Victoria, St. Pauls & Ludgate Hill and trains "to the coast".


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## ska invita (Nov 25, 2008)

jimmer said:


> When I was working in Brixton it was really annoying having to get buses from Lewisham to Brixton, if it did stop it would make it a lot easier to get around South London.



that must be the p4. at least after ken the service was improved, but before that ive waited a full hour for that bus on a sunday.

im still bitter about it!


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## Crispy (Nov 25, 2008)

I've been looking at trains per hour running through the various bits of track around Brixton, and it does look like switching the Overground trains through the old platforms is a no-go  There's too many trains coming through from Herne and Denmark Hills on that line, it'd get all snarled up.

My railway network diagram now stretches from Clapham Junction to New Cross To Croydon


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## hipipol (Nov 25, 2008)

PacificOcean said:


> I assume Wandsworth Road and Clapham High Street used to be four platform stations as I saw a very old picture of Wandsworth Road station advertising trains Victoria, St. Pauls & Ludgate Hill and trains "to the coast".








Ludgate Hill Station was on the bridge between Blackfriars(originally known as St Pauls) and High Holborn, the link still exists but is just used to movge empty stock around now. You can see the lines to the west of Loughborugh Junction


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## Crispy (Nov 25, 2008)

You can't hotlink subbrit images


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## hipipol (Nov 26, 2008)

oops, sorry

PS Whats a subbrit image?


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## lang rabbie (Nov 26, 2008)

hipipol said:


> oops, sorry
> 
> PS Whats a subbrit image?



an image on the Subterranea Britannnica "subbrit" website

Link to Ludgate Hill page on subbrit


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## citydreams (Mar 30, 2009)

*Update*

The London Assembly has renewed calls for the extended East London Line to include a station at Brixton.

Assembly members voted 19-1 in favour of a motion backing construction of a spur from the East London Line phase two route into Brixton town centre. The phase two project, scheduled for completion by 2012, would take over much of the existing South London Line route, which includes a viaduct between Denmark Hill and Clapham High Street stations passing above Brixton but without a station in what is a major population centre

http://www.transportbriefing.co.uk/story.php?id=5748


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

A _spur?!?_

How can that be cheaper?

EDIT: I've looked at the aerial photo and there's just no space for such a thing. Madness.


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## laptop (Mar 30, 2009)

hipipol said:


> Ludgate Hill Station was on the bridge between Blackfriars(originally known as St Pauls) and High Holborn, the link still exists but is just used to movge empty stock around now. You can see the lines to the west of Loughborugh Junction



Ludgate Hill was, as the map shows, on the viaduct North of Blackfriars - which was demolished when the line was dug into City Thameslink. 

And the line is the Thameslink line - not a empty stock route. You're thinking of a curve linking it to the centre of the universe just north of Brixton Tube, perhaps?


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

my brain's confused now 
I'm talking about a spur of the SLL at Brixton. This is the southernmost set of rails. There's just nowhere to put such a spur unless you demolish all sorts of stuff. See map


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## PacificOcean (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> my brain's confused now
> I'm talking about a spur of the SLL at Brixton. This is the southernmost set of rails. There's just nowhere to put such a spur unless you demolish all sorts of stuff. See map



"This image is no longer available" on the street view.


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## hipipol (Mar 30, 2009)

laptop said:


> Ludgate Hill was, as the map shows, on the viaduct North of Blackfriars - which was demolished when the line was dug into City Thameslink.
> 
> And the line is the Thameslink line - not a empty stock route. You're thinking of a curve linking it to the centre of the universe just north of Brixton Tube, perhaps?



Ludgate Hill was, as the name suggests, on Ludgate hill, it was actually partly on the viaduct, partly on the bridge that spanned the road, the tracks continuing on to High Holburn or to Snow Hill Sation and Farringdon - though at the time Ludagte hill was open it was still possible to get to Moorgate via snow hill and the City widened lines.

The curve remark is actually in reference to the right hand curve when looking southward towards Loughborough - it used to provide amongst other things connection between the LCDR at Blackfriars and the LBSCR at Victoria - its is now only used for empty stock


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## hipipol (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> my brain's confused now
> I'm talking about a spur of the SLL at Brixton. This is the southernmost set of rails. There's just nowhere to put such a spur unless you demolish all sorts of stuff. See map



It also arrive at quite a height at Brixton
It would be an insane proposition
Is it a Boris idea perhaps?????


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## London_Calling (Mar 30, 2009)

God I love these threads!


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

It would have to sit on either the market arcades, sainsbury's or the shops on the other side of the road. And it would be one-way only, so probably no trains to clapham (and reduced service from clapham too). It's a bonkers plan. Building any new track = new viaducts on land that would need purchasing = pricey. New station on the current viaduct = complicated engineering & logistics and land that would need purchasing = pricey. No cheap way round this problem that I can see.


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2009)

When you say 'southernmost set of rails', do you mean the high level bridge?


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

yep


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2009)

I assume that the old "East Brixton" station location is of no use whatsoever?

http://www.urban75.org/railway/east-brixton.html


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

Well a station could be built there, but it's not great for interchange with the other rail staion or the tube. If they did build a station there, it would most likely scupper any chance of a proper station at Brixton. The stated aim of the Overground network is to provide a circumferential service so that people travelling from one area of outer London to another don't have to go through the heavily congested central area. This means making transfers from radial routes to the circumferential route as easy as possible. So the only truly useful Brixton Overground station is one that sits over the tube/railway station.


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2009)

Looking at the aerial map, just east at Barrington Road you've got the lines that go east past Loughborough junction.  There's 4 tracks there, 2 of which go to the high level bridge and 2 go to the "station" lines.

Looking west, the "station" lines and the high level lines seem to parallel for some distance.

There's space at both for crossovers.

Is it simply down to capacity that they can't put crossovers in and run these extra trains through Brixton station?  

Would longer trains (platform extensions) mean less trains are needed, thus freeing capacity?

Would a 'freight diversion' somewhere else so they avoid Brixton free up paths?


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

The capacity isn't there unfortunately, I investigated this just in #130 ^^^^^^

The freight network is already hard up against capacity so I don't think that's an option. Does much freight come through Brixton anyway? During the day I mean.

Longer platforms for less trains means a less frequent service. A minimun of 4 trains/hour is _critical_ if people are going to be able to use the Overground as a 'turn up and go' service. Also, I think keeping the platforms short is the best way to keep the cost down!


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2009)

The trainsptters website - http://www.trainspots.co.uk/locpage.php?ts_number=54 - lists Wandsworth Road as a good location for photography, as most of the channel tunnel freight coming from the North has to come that way.

Having not had the pleasure of spending a weekday at Brixton station with camera taking numbers, I can't say for sure how much freight comes through on an average day - but I've certainly seen stone trains, engineers trains and freightliners passing.

This guy - http://chrisjeffery.net/?tag=wandsworth-road notes a spotting session generating 5 freight workings in an hour and a half.

Point the crispycam at the railway line one day, and I'll check it from work


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

Too far away, and you'd only see the high level line!


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## ajdown (Mar 30, 2009)

Guess I'll need to book a sickie some time then.  In 2½ years, I've never been on Brixton station.

It'd make a great model, if only I had the room, and the money.  Oh, and the right stock to run on it.


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

For brixtonites, the overland can be quicker than the tube for getting to Victoria. If the tube is shut south of victoria, it's not a bad replacement. The trouble is that the trains are only every 20 minutes even rush hour.


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## happyshopper (Mar 30, 2009)

... every 15 minutes outside the rush hour.

See http://southeastern.go-cms.co.uk/content/doc/pdf/timetables/timetable_120.pdf


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## happyshopper (Mar 30, 2009)

hipipol said:


> dont recall much by the way of local opposition





If think that you weren't paying attention.


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## Crispy (Mar 30, 2009)

happyshopper said:


> ... every 15 minutes outside the rush hour.
> 
> See http://southeastern.go-cms.co.uk/content/doc/pdf/timetables/timetable_120.pdf


Orly? That must be the thameslink programme helping things along. Now all they need to do is allow payg oyster!


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## lang rabbie (Mar 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> *Orly? *



Is there a secret rail-air link to Paris


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

I was browsing through the Lambeth Unitary Development Plan's major development opportunities document today (as you do) and found this snippet:



> (d) The part of the area north of the high level railway should be developed comprehensively, with active frontages on ground floors and flexible mixed-use space on upper floors. A provision of through pedestrian links under the arches should be created before the northern part is developed providing it safeguards a 12 carriage length area for high-level platforms for the proposed East London Line extension;



Which seems a little weird to me. Rotherithe and Wapping platforms are 4-car only, 6-car with selective door opening, so why safeguard a whole 12-car station? That's huge!






existing platforms in blue. those are for 8-car southeastern trains.  to fit a 6-car overground train in, the red platforms would only have to be half as long


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## London_Calling (Jun 2, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Which seems a little weird to me. Rotherithe and Wapping platforms are 4-car only, 6-car with selective door opening, so why safeguard a whole 12-car station? That's huge!


Wikipedia says this about Rotherhithe:

The station's future was in doubt for a while after the announcement of the East London Line extension, as Rotherhithe's platforms can only take 4 car trains and can not be lengthened. The planned new extensions can take trains of up to 8 cars.

 - no idea about Wapping.


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

same condition. I suppose 8 car trains would only open 1/2 their carriages at those two stations, or they'd have to close them. and Brixton would have to be 8-car too, so it's still strange to read Lambeth's requirement for 12...


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## London_Calling (Jun 2, 2009)

Sure, it's only a partial answer.

I agree; based on what's in the public domain 12 doesn't seem to make enough sense. I did wonder if Lambeth has their own agenda.

eta: Maybe you just run 8-car trains if it's taking the extension line.


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## cesare (Jun 2, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Wikipedia says this about Rotherhithe:
> 
> The station's future was in doubt for a while after the announcement of the East London Line extension, as Rotherhithe's platforms can only take 4 car trains and can not be lengthened. The planned new extensions can take trains of up to 8 cars.
> 
> - no idea about Wapping.



Wapping's tiny. Brunel tunnel, first foot tunnel under the river iirc. The platforms are very narrow and they've been trying to close it down for years - ongoing campaign from the residents to keep it open (till the extension malarkey started).


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## Crispy (Jun 2, 2009)

(Marc) Brunel's tunnel was designed for horse-drawn carriages


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## timothysutton1 (Mar 25, 2010)

*No Brixton station on East London Line Extension*

Does anyone know if there is any more news regarding Phase II of the East London Line Extensions and in particular whether Brixton is going to get a station or not:

http://www.alwaystouchout.com/project/3#Phases

Brixton
Two new stations on Phase Two are just possibilities. Brixton has no platforms on the South London line (the route to be taken between Peckham and Clapham) - but these could be built, given that Brixton is a very busy bus/tube interchange station. There used to be a station at East Brixton but this is some distance from the existing Brixton station.

Unfortunately, since the station at Brixton would be located on a brick viaduct, the cost would be high - around £50m-60m for this station alone.

It seems ridiculous to me that passengers will be whisked past Brixton and Loughborough Junction as if we are some kind of embarrassment to the rest of London! Like all other tax payers we are paying for this line so we should be allowed access.


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## editor (Mar 25, 2010)

*threads merged'n'tagged


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## ajdown (Mar 25, 2010)

I don't understand the thinking really as to why the 4th platform at Brixton can't be built, and the third (middle) bought back into use.

The Victoria-bound platform overhangs the pavement and is up on stilts.

On the other side, it would overhang the little market area so it's not even like it's going to close a road or anything - height of vehicles shouldn't be any more of a problem any more than it is the other side of the station.

I can't see how doing something similar would cost 60 million.


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## Crispy (Mar 25, 2010)

ajdown said:


> I don't understand the thinking really as to why the 4th platform at Brixton can't be built, and the third (middle) bought back into use.
> 
> The Victoria-bound platform overhangs the pavement and is up on stilts.
> 
> ...


You have your lines confused. The Northern low-level line is not the one that will be carrying the extension - it will be the Southern high-level line.

A high-level brixton station would probably be intimately connected with development of the derelict land to the East of the existing station, at the old Cooltan site. This was suggested in the development plans for the market arcades, IIRC.

I knocked up a schematic in gmaps

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ie...62838,-0.11158&spn=0.002717,0.005016&t=k&z=18

Those are platforms for 8-car trains, which is what the other new stations are built for even if they are only running 4-car for the foreseeable future. There was a thread on the market redevelopment, where did that go?


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## London_Calling (Mar 25, 2010)

Crispy - I don't know if you noticed but in that Google image there are two 8-carriage trains crossing each other about 200m to the west of Brixton Road. Kind of cool


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## timothysutton1 (Mar 25, 2010)

*No station thanks to Boris*

Copy of email from Valerie Shawcross today...

Tim

Boris has cancelled a huge raft of planned projects [previously passed by Ken].  We shouted very loudly about his 'bonfire of transport projects' on the media  and any additional voices of concern would be welcome.   


Val

Valerie Shawcross AM 
LONDON Assembly Member 
Lambeth & Southwark

City Hall 
The Queen's Walk 
London 
SE1 2AA

020 7983 4371

www.london.gov.uk


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## London_Calling (Mar 25, 2010)

All she seems to be saying is it was never more than a proposed station ("planned project"). Which is exactly the case, iifr.


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## ajdown (Mar 25, 2010)

Crispy said:


> You have your lines confused. The Northern low-level line is not the one that will be carrying the extension - it will be the Southern high-level line.



Understand.

Is it not possible to put in some pointwork to the east so trains can cross from the high level to the low level lines, and build the platform over the market by the leisure centre as I mentioned, or are the heights so different?

Is it simply a capacity issue?


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## timothysutton1 (Mar 25, 2010)

*More than a proposal*



London_Calling said:


> ...it was never more than a proposed station...



...a bit more than that; according to Councillor Toren Smith...

"I can confirm that Lambeth Council is proposing to safeguard the land any future East London Line station will require at Brixton (in the forthcoming Local Development Framework) so that it is able to be built without conflict from any new development."


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## Crispy (Mar 25, 2010)

ajdown said:


> Understand.
> 
> Is it not possible to put in some pointwork to the east so trains can cross from the high level to the low level lines, and build the platform over the market by the leisure centre as I mentioned, or are the heights so different?
> 
> Is it simply a capacity issue?


A junction to the east would have to come after the chord onto the thameslink route, whose trains are on the northern pair of tracks until that point. Immediately after the chord, the track runs over loughborough junction. If we want a station there, we can't put a junction in as well. In fact, building a junction here would be just as difficult as building a station. beyond there, we have the chord on the other side to deal with, after which the lines start to diverge vertically.

so, as well as it being a pathing problem (the northern tracks already have services running on them), it's a 3 dimensional junciton problem.

IMO, the only liekly solution is platforms to the east of the existing station, as in my google map. This allows construction to take place without interfering with the existing station or Atlantic road, and can be tied into the development that the council wants on the surrounding sites. This doesn't need junctions to the east, and therefore allows a station to be built at loughborough junction.

So many of south london's railways are poorly layed out, and things are complicated by each network wanting a west end and city terminus.


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## ajdown (Mar 25, 2010)

Crispy said:


> So many of south london's railways are poorly layed out, and things are complicated by each network wanting a west end and city terminus.



It's not necessarily the railways laid out per se, but also lack of urban planning over the last 50 or so years, sticking great big blocks of flats in on former railway land or building right up to the boundries with no thought of possible expansion in the future.


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## London_Calling (Mar 25, 2010)

timothysutton1 said:


> ...a bit more than that; according to Councillor Toren Smith...
> 
> "I can confirm that Lambeth Council is proposing to safeguard the land any future East London Line station will require at Brixton (in the forthcoming Local Development Framework) so that it is able to be built without conflict from any new development."


Of course they're going to safeguard land


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## editor (Jun 9, 2011)

Slightly overdue update! I managed to buy an East Brixton ticket on eBay for a massive £1.25, so have penned a short article about the station. 







http://www.urban75.org/blog/east-brixton-station-to-battersea-3rd-october-1969/


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## editor (Jun 9, 2011)

Can anyone find timetables for this station? I'm curious as to what kind of service it once had.


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## Crispy (Jun 9, 2011)

I can only find LBSCR timetables for the main line to Brighton etc. The national archives has copies of all their timetables, but you have to make a trip to Kew. Searching for South London Line timetables only gets you modern ones.


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## laptop (Jun 9, 2011)

Bet there's a Bradshaw in a local reference library.

Unless a trainspotter's nicked it...

M


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## editor (Jun 9, 2011)

I know it's a bad sad, but I was quite chuffed to get my hands on a little reminder of the station!

I wish I'd been able to buy the old 'East Brixton' enamel sign that went up for auction a while ago.  That would have looked lovely in the flat (although Eme may have disagreed).


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## Onket (Jun 10, 2011)

Worth £1.25 of anyone's money.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2011)

Onket said:


> Worth £1.25 of anyone's money.


I reckon if I go on the Antique's Roadshow in 10 years time, it might be worth as much as £2.25 by then.


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## Crispy (Jun 10, 2011)

editor said:


> Can anyone find timetables for this station? I'm curious as to what kind of service it once had.


 
Thinking about it, it's only ever been on the SLL, so probably no more than 4 trains an hour each way to Victoria/London Bridge.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2011)

Crispy said:


> Thinking about it, it's only ever been on the SLL, so probably no more than 4 trains an hour each way to Victoria/London Bridge.


It's a shame it's gone because the station would have been very useful for me.


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## laptop (Jun 10, 2011)

I looked up _Bradshaw's Railway Guide_ on amazon and they're going for £39 - £85 or over.

I'll see whether there's still my dad's old (1920s?) copy at me mam's, if I remember....


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## Meerkat (Jun 15, 2011)

I think both Camberwell and Walworth stations on the Thameslink line should be reopened as these areas are quite deprived economically while being poorly serviced by other modes of public transport. Buses on the Walworth Road to get to E&C tube are often painfully slow and there are, of course, no tube stations. The stations at Loughborough Junction and Elephant & Castle to and from Blackfriars re a fair distance for those who currently live in the area. 

Although some journey times might take longer as a result of having to stop at these stations, not all trains have to stop there if patronage levels don't warrant it.

East Brixton station was on the South London line to and from Victoria and London Bridge was it not? I am also perplexed as the why the East London Line Phase 2  to Clapham Junctions will not have a station at Brixton, whether it be Brixton mainline station or a re-opened East Brixton. To stop on the high-level tracks at Brixton would mean excellent connections to the Victoria Line. It just makes sense IMHO.


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## ajdown (Jun 15, 2011)

Meerkat said:


> East Brixton station was on the South London line to and from Victoria and London Bridge was it not? I am also perplexed as the why the East London Line Phase 2  to Clapham Junctions will not have a station at Brixton, whether it be Brixton mainline station or a re-opened East Brixton. To stop on the high-level tracks at Brixton would mean excellent connections to the Victoria Line. It just makes sense IMHO.


 
This was discussed a while ago in a long thread; it all boils down to the usual problem, someone has to spend money building a station in an awkward location and that will affect the shareholders profits, which any development is primarily for rather than to serve people living in the area.


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## laptop (Jun 15, 2011)

ajdown said:


> This was discussed a while ago in a long thread; it all boils down to the usual problem, someone has to spend money building a station in an awkward location and that will affect the shareholders profits, which any development is primarily for rather than to serve people living in the area.


 
Crispy drew maps 

But not graphs


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2011)

editor said:


> Can anyone find timetables for this station? I'm curious as to what kind of service it once had.


 
From the 1974/5 BR all lines timetable:

It was only served by the London Bridge - Denmark Hill - Victoria "wall of death" line.

Two trains per hour in each direction, closed on Sundays.

The 1,300+ page format of the timetable doesn't really lend itself to use of a scanner - I'll see what I can do about photographing the relevant page if you like.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> From the 1974/5 BR all lines timetable:
> 
> It was only served by the London Bridge - Denmark Hill - Victoria "wall of death" line.
> 
> ...


That would be ace! When was the first/last trains?


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2011)

photo of page here.  Feel free to save / use / do what you darn well like with.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2011)

Cheers. That line would provide a really useful connection now.  And it had a Sunday service


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 15, 2011)

editor said:


> And it had a Sunday service



East Brixton station didn't though.

1953 Railway Magazine article about the line here (opens as pdf)

I have a faint recollection of having seen a 1980s re-print of the timetable leaflet from 1909 (when the south london line was electrified) - I expect copies of this leaflet turn up now and then second hand.


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## editor (Jun 15, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> East Brixton station didn't though.


Yes, you're right. I wasn't paying attention.


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## lang rabbie (Jun 15, 2011)

From:
_THE ABC 
Railway Guide_ 
and Hotel Guide 
December 1963


> *EAST BRIXTON*
> (London)
> 3 3/4 miles
> From Victoria
> ...



Turning to 


> *Table 44 LONDON BRIDGE - DENMARK HILL - VICTORIA | 2nd class
> *



The service was:

MONDAYS TO FRIDAYS
First train East Brixton 531am arriving Victoria 542am
then trains every half hour until 731am
morning peak trains every 20 minutes until 1011am
offpeak service from 1027am every 30 minutes until 357pm
afternoon peak trains every 20 minutes from 431pm until 711pm
then evening service every 30 minutes 727pm until 1057pm

SATURDAYS
First train 529am arriving Victoria 539 am
then trains every 30 minutes from 557am until 1057pm

SUNDAYS 
No trains serving East Brixton

Will see if I can scan.


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## davesgcr (Jun 19, 2011)

According to the "bible" (Southern Electric by G T Moody) - the 1967 timetable saw the end of the East Brixton Sunday service (along with Morden Sth , Faygate , Plumpton , Cooksbridge , Collington and Southease)    

A fall in traffic in inner suburban stations of around 8% in the 1970's "saw for" the station - (along of course with the increasingly uncomptetive nature of the service with the new and shiny Victoria line.


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## Brainaddict (Jun 19, 2011)

ajdown said:


> This was discussed a while ago in a long thread; it all boils down to the usual problem, someone has to spend money building a station in an awkward location and that will affect the shareholders profits, which any development is primarily for rather than to serve people living in the area.


 
But wasn't that about a station in central Brixton? This East Brixton site would be easier, no? 

You look at the map of the overground extension and there's this massive gap between denmark hill and clapham, and brixton is still left in the position of having loads of north south transport and having a bloody nightmare if you want to go east west. I should declare an interest, as I live in New Cross and go to Brixton a lot. But still, it seems insane to leave that great gap in the line at a major zone 2 town and transport hub.


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## lang rabbie (Jun 19, 2011)

davesgcr said:


> According to the "bible" (Southern Electric by G T Moody) - the 1967 timetable saw the end of the East Brixton Sunday service (along with Morden Sth , Faygate , Plumpton , Cooksbridge , Collington and Southease)





But there was no Sunday service as early as December 1963 - the ABC Railway Guide timetable I quoted from.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jun 19, 2011)

lang rabbie said:


> But there was no Sunday service as early as December 1963 - the ABC Railway Guide timetable I quoted from.



It's possible (I don't have any 1960s timetables to hand) that it had a Sunday service during the "summer timetable" but not "winter timetable"


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## Callie (Jun 19, 2011)

the brickwork in the arches of east brixton station looks like a coral snake


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## Crispy (Jun 19, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> But wasn't that about a station in central Brixton? This East Brixton site would be easier, no?
> 
> You look at the map of the overground extension and there's this massive gap between denmark hill and clapham, and brixton is still left in the position of having loads of north south transport and having a bloody nightmare if you want to go east west. I should declare an interest, as I live in New Cross and go to Brixton a lot. But still, it seems insane to leave that great gap in the line at a major zone 2 town and transport hub.


 
It would be easier, but would only add to the overground's reputation of not having any useful interchanges. Reopening East Brixton would scupper any chances of a station at Brixton itself, which would be so much more useful


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## davesgcr (Jun 20, 2011)

From a train planning point of view - would be achievable , however the massive capital costs of stations (especially Brixton HL) , would make it a bit challenging.


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## Crispy (Jun 20, 2011)

I imagine they'll try and get maximum development value out of the old cooltan site and try and get the developer to (help) pay for it


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## davesgcr (Jun 21, 2011)

June 1948 - first train towards London Bridge at 0557 , then every 20 mins to 1125 pm - though every 30 mins from 756pm - fare 8d 

Towards Victoria , first train at 0526 (interestingly starting from Peckham Rye - where there were carriage sidings) - as above with last train at 1101 pm 

Sunday service , every 30 mins from 0556 am (interstingly not calling at Denmark Hill) to 934pm towards Victoria and towards London Bridge from 0619am to 959pm.


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## Crispy (Jun 22, 2011)

Hah! That's a better service than today's SLL, which is every 30 mins even in the peaks. Although the sunday service runs till midnight now.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 31, 2011)

1952 - every 20/30 minutes, with a Sunday (30 minute) service

Image of timetable (from Southern Region timetable book, 15.9.52 onwards, here

Again, feel free to borrow the image.


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## Bungle73 (Jul 31, 2011)

lang rabbie said:


> BUT I thought the original 1836 London to Greenwich railway (now the track from London Bridge to just beyond Deptford Creek) still held the record for longest single viaduct with 978 arches covering something approaching four miles.


That's what I've read as well. 

Edit: You can still see the remains of Spa Road station platforms, from a train, on the viaduct into London Bridge btw.


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## davesgcr (Aug 1, 2011)

London Railway Journal - recent edition has some pictures of East Brixton on the last day in service - signs being taken down before the last trains called (they probably ended up in a scrap bin ) 

If someone feels they can buy this hard core mag and scan the pix on ....?


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## editor (Aug 1, 2011)

I've never heard of the London Railway Journal - where can you buy it? Annoyingly, I heard about an East Brixton roundel going up for sale too late. I'd love to own one of them.


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## MAD-T-REX (Aug 4, 2011)

Crispy said:


> It would be easier, but would only add to the overground's reputation of not having any useful interchanges. Reopening East Brixton would scupper any chances of a station at Brixton itself, which would be so much more useful


The biggest problem with a station at Brixton is the lack of capacity on the Victoria line. The Herne Hill circular extension will probably never happen because an interchange with Thameslink and the wider catchment area would fill the trains before they got more than a few stops north. 

An interchange with LO has the same problem - if people start commuting into Brixton from Clapham or Peckham and travelling north then the line will seize up.

East Brixton would probably be the best place for an LO station. It would discourage people from using the LO to reach the VL while improving transport connections for locals.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 29, 2011)

Some colour photos of East Brixton Station in use in 1975 here - found while looking for something else


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## teuchter (Aug 30, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Some colour photos of East Brixton Station in use in 1975 here - found while looking for something else


nice - thanks for posting


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## se5 (Aug 31, 2011)

aylee said:


> In addition, Camberwell could desperately do with a station on the Blackfriars to Herne Hill line .... might reduce the traffic along Walworth Road as well. Interesting to hear that there used to be one.


`
I agree Camberwell could really do with a station to relieve pressure on other transport and also to give Camberwell 'a sense of place' as people tend to think about places in terms fo the transport links etc. Plus it was only shut it 1916 as I understand it as a temporary war time cost saving measure.

Southwark Council and others do propose reopening it from time to time as it would I think be relatively easy to do (track still there in Camberwell Station Road, station building still present, I would have thought that platforms could be easily rebuilt) but the latest I read was that Network Rail deemed it unviable for it and Loughborough Junction to be open as they were too close together


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 31, 2011)

se5 said:


> I agree Camberwell could really do with a station ...  Plus it was only shut it 1916 as I understand it as a temporary war time cost saving measure.



Slightly more to it than that - the other factor (a lot of inner London stations closed around that time) was that passenger numbers were falling - by that time the cheap and frequent electric trams in inner London had taken a lot of traffic from these stations which still (South London line apart) had relatively infrequent steam trains.

Re-opening stations on busy lines is a bit two edged.

Yes, it can be good for the local area, but if the trains are already bung full, it adds to the overcrowding problem (you can only run more trains if the line and terminus stations are not already at full capacity - the extensions of Thameslink may help with the terminus issues here)

Also, having trains stopping more often means slower overall speeds which means you can run less trains per hour overall - although the effect is less now with modern electric trains than it was with steam hauled trains in 1916...

You can get more trains per hour on a line with fancy modern signalling (when it works) like the underground is moving towards, but not sure how well this would work on the 'big' railway where you've got many more junctions where trains cross each others' paths, as well as complications of stopping and faster trains sharing the same tracks.


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## teuchter (Aug 31, 2011)

Speaking as a Loughborough Junction resident I enjoy speeding through the previous site of Camberwell station and getting into town without interruption. Therefore I think it should remain closed and the Camberwellians can just get the bus or something.


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## 19sixtysix (Sep 1, 2011)

If anyone is interested the book London's Elevated Electric Railway by G Goslin gives the beginning of the LBSCR overhead electric services through east brixton. The 1909 time table ran weekdays (mon to sat) 0511 - 0034 to Victoria and 0439-0030 London bridge sort of every 15 mins. Sundays and xmas day it was 1/2 hourly 7ish till midnight.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 10, 2012)

Kent Rail has done a page on East Brixton - not sure it adds a lot other than that the station was in imminent danger of falling apart when it was closed...


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## teuchter (Jan 10, 2012)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Kent Rail has done a page on East Brixton - not sure it adds a lot other than that the station was in imminent danger of falling apart when it was closed...


thanks for posting.


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## editor (Jan 10, 2012)

Interesting piece:


> After the SR alterations, little changed at this station for many years. Colour lights replaced semaphore signals here on 8th March 1959, when the Factory Junction to Denmark Hill section of the SLL was converted to this mode of operation. Thereafter, the station was allowed to decay, so much that by the 1970s parts of it were becoming structurally unsafe. In 1973, waiting accommodation was severely reduced when large chunks from the middles of both canopies were dismantled. This subsequently created four separate waiting shelters – two on each platform – made up from the remains of the original canopies. At this time, the SR’s Swan Neck lamps were also removed, these being replaced by standard metal lampposts. In spite of this ‘’upgrade’’, the end was nigh. Due to the financial burden of running the station, coupled to the fact that the platforms would fall down without structural remedial work, closure occurred on 5th January 1976.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jan 10, 2012)

> Thereafter, the station was allowed to decay



BR, from the Beeching era on, was quite good at this sort of thing - train services generally buggered up leading to loss of passengers then the station / line being closed due to few people using them, and so on...


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

The new Outer London rail orbital opened today:

http://news.bbcimg.co.uk/media/images/64609000/jpg/_64609708_lomap.jpg

Notice the huge gap in stations between Clapham High Street and Denmark Hill as trains rush through Brixton without stopping!

It was Boris who squashed Ken's plans to build an additional station on the second higher line that runs next to Sainsburys Local.

It would seem that rail lines are now built to add value to property developer's schemes rather than provide real 'public' transport (e.g. Nine Elms, Docklands, etc. etc).

How Lambeth let this go through without any public outcry is a disgrace. A real opportunity for Brixton lost.

Tim S.


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## lizzieloo (Dec 10, 2012)

That's quite a bump, and a sad one at that.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a question of money. A new station on the high level line would be very expensive, and would almost certainly have to be part of a large-scale redevelopment of the surrounding sites. Central govt. or TfL funding is highly unlikely.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2012)

In the spirit of all threads in this forum turning into gentrification debates - a new station (or even the promise of one) would have given the house prices/rents in the area another hefty shove upwards. So there not being one isn't all bad.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

It would also have made the victoria line even more rammed in the morning.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> In the spirit of all threads in this forum turning into gentrification debates - a new station (or even the promise of one) would have given the house prices/rents in the area another hefty shove upwards. So there not being one isn't all bad.


Yep. Also, It's not far to Clapham High Street anyway - a short walk or cycle up Landor Road/Ferndale Road. If you wanted to get to Dalston from Brixton or vice versa, this would still be a good option.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> Yep. Also, It's not far to Clapham High Street anyway - a short walk or cycle up Landor Road/Ferndale Road. If you wanted to get to Dalston from Brixton or vice versa, this would still be a good option.


 
Quickest way to Dalston from Brixton is Victoria line to H&I then the overground 2 stops. 30 minutes, rather than 45. It's no more expensive either, as the Overground goes through Zone 1 at Shoreditch.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

I understand this change also means the end of the London Victoria to London Bridge service, which goes via Denmark Hill. Presumably people will need to change at Clapham Junction or Peckham Rye now...


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## Garek (Dec 10, 2012)

Crispy said:


> It's a question of money. A new station on the high level line would be very expensive, and would almost certainly have to be part of a large-scale redevelopment of the surrounding sites. Central govt. or TfL funding is highly unlikely.


 
Exactly. This isn't a simple case of "of there's a gap, let's plonk a station here". Brixton is a complicated nightmare and it would be require serious redevelopment the add a stop.


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## Rushy (Dec 10, 2012)

Garek said:


> Exactly. This isn't a simple case of "of there's a gap, let's plonk a station here". Brixton is a complicated nightmare and it would be require serious redevelopment the add a stop.


Stephanie Buther, the ex Town Centre Manager was keen to get a station brought in. When looking at potential sites she, one of the problems she was told stood in the way was that the curve in the track would mean too large a gap between train and platform  to satisfy current H&S. I think that was in relation to the old East Brixton location.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

Rushy said:


> one of the problems she was told stood in the way was that the curve in the track would mean too large a gap between train and platform to satisfy current H&S.


I'm not sure how cast iron the rules are for that. This is my completely unsourced recollection, but I'm sure I've read of relaxations of those rules for stations that are impossible to fit in otherwise.

Any new station would have to be 8 carriages long (160m), for future-proofing. They'd also want to avoid construction works over the existing station and Atlantic Road, for safety and uninterrupted operation of the existing railway. That would mean platforms that stretch all the way from Pope's Road to Valencia Place.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Any new station would have to be 8 carriages long (160m), for future-proofing. They'd also want to avoid construction works over the existing station and Atlantic Road, for safety and uninterrupted operation of the existing railway. That would mean platforms that stretch all the way from Pope's Road to Valencia Place.


Yep...and in any case, the council want to build new buildings between the railway lines there. Can't ever see it happening in the short term...


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

IIRC, safeguarding for the platforms has already been built into the developments along coldharbour lane. I strongly suspect that it would also be the case for the other side of the tracks.

But yeah, no chance of this for at least 10-15 years.


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> ...gentrification debates - ... So there not being [a new station] isn't all bad.


...I don't think market traders would agree.
I also find it difficult to swallow that Lambeth can find millions of pounds for their new Town Hall but nothing for the Brixton regeneration this station would undoubtedly create.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

£50m at the last estimate. The council couldn't afford it. It would have to be mostly funded by Section 106 payments from developers, and to raise that sort of money would require BIG developments, like the one proposed for the Village. Ironically, listing the Village probably knackered the chances of a station ever happening.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2012)

timothysutton1 said:


> ...I don't think market traders would agree.
> I also find it difficult to swallow that Lambeth can find millions of pounds for their new Town Hall but nothing for the Brixton regeneration this station would undoubtedly create.


 
I'm sure Crispy will correct me if I'm wrong but I suspect building a new station is of a different order of magnitude altogether compared to a new town hall when it comes to cost.

Beyond that the market traders aren't the only people with a stake are they, and it's not unproblematic for them either. A new station might mean more customers but it would also mean higher rents in the medium and long term which would probably more than cancel the benefits out for some of them.

I'm not saying the idea of a new station is a 'bad thing' btw, just that it's not unambiguously a good thing either.


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Crispy said:


> ...The council couldn't afford it...


 
Lambeth seem to have a knack of 'affording' things when convenient. There is plenty of empty land round the back of the railway lines, and there is even talk of re-locating the Rec, so with a little imagination I am sure anything is possible. It depends on whether the council have any imagination?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Dec 10, 2012)

lang rabbie said:


> It's the mythical tram following the 59 bus route from Camden and going over Waterloo bridge. ETA 2012 at the earliest, so don't hold your breath!


 
From the first page. How's this one coming along then?


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

From Lambeth Web site: http://www.lambeth.gov.uk/Services/TransportStreets/PublicTransportTaxis/CrossRiverTram.htm

"Unfortunately, the proposals to build the CRT are now on hold due to constraints on TfL’s funding. Future work will concentrate on working with the boroughs, the London Development Agency and the Greater London Authority to assess potential alternatives to the scheme. Recommendations from the study will form part of a future bid to Government for more funding."


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## ajdown (Dec 10, 2012)

timothysutton1 said:


> Lambeth seem to have a knack of 'affording' things when convenient. There is plenty of empty land round the back of the railway lines, and there is even talk of re-locating the Rec, so with a little imagination I am sure anything is possible. It depends on whether the council have any imagination?


 
Along Atlantic Road, the westbound platform is up on stilts over the pavement.  Is there any real reason why this couldn't happen for the westbound platform that is non-existant at present, with reopening the currently disused third platform at the station - problem solved?  It shouldn't cause any more disruption to shops/market etc than the existing one does.


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

There are 2 lines that go through Brixton:

The lower has a station and platforms.

The upper (which goes behind Argos and not obviously visible from the existing station) has no station and no platforms. This is what needs to be built for Brixton to join the new line.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

3 lines. 2 low level, 1 high level. There are platforms on one of the low level lines. The other low level line used to have platforms and they could be reopened. But the Overground runs on the high level line, which has never had platforms.


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## timothysutton1 (Dec 10, 2012)

Atlantic Road facing east:
Left of picture shows the lower line with its station. Right is the upper line without station or platforms.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

great picture!


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

timothysutton1 said:


> Lambeth seem to have a knack of 'affording' things when convenient. There is plenty of empty land round the back of the railway lines, and there is even talk of re-locating the Rec, so with a little imagination I am sure anything is possible. It depends on whether the council have any imagination?


It's not really the Council's to build though. Transport for London are responsible for stuff like this (not Lambeth) and they're short of cash.

Much as I'd love a station on the high level lines, or the reopening of Brixton East station, it's not really a big priority at the moment. We have really good transport links in Brixton already.


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## Brixton Hatter (Dec 10, 2012)

It's a shame the new high level line trains on the London Loop extension bit (going from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction) can't just go along the low level lines then reverse into Brixton station to get alongside the platform. Not enough capacity I guess.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

Yeah, it's theoretically possible to get an Overground train onto the low level lines, but those are full of trains going to Victoria.


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## laptop (Dec 10, 2012)

Brixton Hatter said:


> It's a shame the new high level line trains on the London Loop extension bit (going from Surrey Quays to Clapham Junction) can't just go along the low level lines then reverse into Brixton station to get alongside the platform. Not enough capacity I guess.


 
Reverse?

Any idea what that would do to line capacity?




			
				crispy said:
			
		

> Yeah, it's theoretically possible to get an Overground train onto the low level lines, but those are full of trains going to Victoria.


 
Capacity is the issue - but I seem to remember that last year Google Maps wasn't showing a crossover, and it'd be damn difficult to fit one in without a massive rebuild of some underbridges.


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## Crispy (Dec 10, 2012)

My mistake! I had convinced myself there was a crossover between Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill.


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## prunus (Apr 22, 2013)

Crispy said:


> My mistake! I had convinced myself there was a crossover between Peckham Rye and Denmark Hill.


 
According to this quite fantasic map that I've just discovered, there is a partial one at Crofton Road Junction, and even a way back onto the high level after Brixton at Shepherd's Lane junction; even so changing from high level to low level is never going to happen I'd have thought, given the logisitics of dealing with the capacity issues.

However looking at this map does again make me want them to re-open East Brixton on the Overground - just look how beautifully it's placed.  Is there a campaign or anything to try doea anyone know?


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## Crispy (Apr 22, 2013)

While it would be great to have E.Brixton re-opened, it would scupper any chance at all of a proper interchange at Brixton. That _will_ happen some day - the benefits are so great. But it will come at the cost of substantial redevelopment of the area around the existing station.

It seems that TfL have studied the options for Brixton in detail: http://www.londonreconnections.com/...ng-of-overground-capacity-work/#comment-80214 - but nothing has been made available to the public...


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## CH1 (Apr 22, 2013)

Crispy said:


> While it would be great to have E.Brixton re-opened, it would scupper any chance at all of a proper interchange at Brixton. That _will_ happen some day - the benefits are so great. But it will come at the cost of substantial redevelopment of the area around the existing station.
> 
> It seems that TfL have studied the options for Brixton in detail: http://www.londonreconnections.com/...ng-of-overground-capacity-work/#comment-80214 - but nothing has been made available to the public...


Kings Cross Thameslink was a serviceable interlude before the grand opening of St Pancras International almost 20 years later. Surely it makes sense to push for reopening East Brixton - now that Medussa has closed.  The cost of tram-like interim platforms up there would only be a few thousands, surely?


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 22, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Kings Cross Thameslink was a serviceable interlude before the grand opening of St Pancras International almost 20 years later. Surely it makes sense to push for reopening East Brixton - now that Medussa has closed. The cost of tram-like interim platforms up there would only be a few thousands, surely?


 
I expect someone better qualified than me will come along to say I'm talking balls, but I wonder if, as a completely new station, any new structure would have to meet present day standards in terms of accessibility and so forth.  Hence 'tram like' platforms might not be an option.


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## Crispy (Apr 22, 2013)

Yeah, you'd need lifts. Not sure how big space for the island platform is up there.


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## Brixton Hatter (Apr 22, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Surely it makes sense to push for reopening East Brixton - now that Medussa has closed.


Medussa is in use as a photography studio at the moment


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## CH1 (Apr 23, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Yeah, you'd need lifts. Not sure how big space for the island platform is up there.


Loughborough Junction doesn't have lifts - nor does Brixton SR.  So now we can't bring back Brixton East because of the DDA? Franz Kafka meets the Daily Mail.   
Actually lifts could be provided less expensively these days - I've seen some lightweight lifts in Spanish stations with upgraded access. Not suitable for electrically powered scooters of course. 
BTW I didn't mean island type tram platforms - sorry.  I meant platforms could be strapped on the sides with the benefit of modern technology using aluminium or some other lightweight but sturdy materials.
Something lighter than cast iron, wood and brick as heretofore


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 23, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Yeah, you'd need lifts. Not sure how big space for the island platform is up there.


 
I don't think the viaduct is wide enough to put an island platform in



CH1 said:


> Loughborough Junction doesn't have lifts - nor does Brixton SR. So now we can't bring back Brixton East because of the DDA?


 
I may be completely wrong on this point - but I have a feeling that the situation is different for an existing station that's been in use for some time and for a brand new station.

And not necessarily Equalities Act (which has replaced DDA) - all sorts of building regulations apply to new buildings but not retrospectively.

I am fairly sure that a lot of existing London Underground stations would not meet the standards that any new underground* station would have to be built to, for example - there were new standards which I think have something to do with emergency access that came in in the aftermath of the Kings Cross fire.

* - by this, I mean a station that is underground, not necessarily an Underground station.


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## Crispy (Apr 23, 2013)

That's right, it's the building regulations, and existing buildings get a pass.
One of the platforms would have to be an island (albeit with nothing stopping on the North face), because it's only the southern pair of tracks we're interested in


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## laptop (Apr 23, 2013)

I'm pretty sure - from looking at examples rather than the regs - that if you build a new station the platforms have to be dead straight.

No idea whether you can "grandfather" the site of a station that's been closed and demolished for decades...


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## Crispy (Apr 23, 2013)

The rule isn't completely watertight, AFAIK. The thameslink platform extensions at Farringdon, for example, are curved _and_ sloped, and had to get special permission.

However, from a quick look on gmaps, the straight portion of the old East Brixton platforms are long enough to take a 4/5 car Overground train. But new stations on the OG are built with 8 cars in mind (if not the actual platforms). So, it could work as a stopgap station until the redevelopment cash comes in for Brixton proper, but I still have my doubts that it would be worth the money.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

CH1 said:


> Loughborough Junction doesn't have lifts - nor does Brixton SR. So now we can't bring back Brixton East because of the DDA? Franz Kafka meets the Daily Mail.
> Actually lifts could be provided less expensively these days - I've seen some lightweight lifts in Spanish stations with upgraded access. Not suitable for electrically powered scooters of course.
> BTW I didn't mean island type tram platforms - sorry. I meant platforms could be strapped on the sides with the benefit of modern technology using aluminium or some other lightweight but sturdy materials.
> Something lighter than cast iron, wood and brick as heretofore


 
Lifts needn't be expensive. Berlin managed to make most of their stations (U-bahn and S-bahn) accessible without breaking the bank, so whining about the DDA is bollocks. What Berlin did was use lifts with hydraulic rams to raise/lower the cabin, rather than cables. Easier to fit and maintain (no need to constantly re-tension cables), and the business part is on the lower level, so you're not having to find extra headroom on the platform for winding gear.


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Lifts needn't be expensive. Berlin managed to make most of their stations (U-bahn and S-bahn) accessible without breaking the bank, so whining about the DDA is bollocks. What Berlin did was use lifts with hydraulic rams to raise/lower the cabin, rather than cables. Easier to fit and maintain (no need to constantly re-tension cables), and the business part is on the lower level, so you're not having to find extra headroom on the platform for winding gear.


 
Indeed.

(West) Berlin had low floor, wheelchair accessible buses circa 1990.  (I can't remember if it was all the fleet at that time but certainly a good proportion.)

I don't really understand why here, more effort seems to be put into trying to come up with reasons why accessibility can't be done than into trying to come up with practical ways of delivering it...


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## CH1 (Apr 23, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Lifts needn't be expensive. Berlin managed to make most of their stations (U-bahn and S-bahn) accessible without breaking the bank, so whining about the DDA is bollocks. What Berlin did was use lifts with hydraulic rams to raise/lower the cabin, rather than cables. Easier to fit and maintain (no need to constantly re-tension cables), and the business part is on the lower level, so you're not having to find extra headroom on the platform for winding gear.


As in Spain. Looks as though what we need is a feasibility study.


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## ViolentPanda (Apr 23, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Indeed.
> 
> (West) Berlin had low floor, wheelchair accessible buses circa 1990. (I can't remember if it was all the fleet at that time but certainly a good proportion.)
> 
> I don't really understand why here, more effort seems to be put into trying to come up with reasons why accessibility can't be done than into trying to come up with practical ways of delivering it...


 
Because the money will *never* be found until they're (the Mayor, TfL) are compelled to legislatively, because accessibility isn't sexy. You only need look at how Boris rowed back from the project to make South Ken accessible (citing a supposed £50 million cost  ) to know they'd rather spend money on projects that get good press, rather than on worthy causes that wouldn't just make life easier for disabled people, but mums and/or dads with shopping and kids, too.


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## Crispy (Apr 23, 2013)

The deep-level tube is a special case, though. The U-bahn could have lifts added easily, as it's all cut and cover, like the met/district/h&c/circle (and it's a crime that all of those stations haven't been done). But driving lift shafts down to existing deep tube stations is an expensive business. It's why South Ken would have cost £50m, whereas Southfields, for example, had a complete refurbishment and new lifts for only $15m


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## laptop (Apr 23, 2013)

Crispy said:


> The deep-level tube is a special case, though. The U-bahn could have lifts added easily, as it's all cut and cover, like the met/district/h&c/circle (and it's a crime that all of those stations haven't been done). But driving lift shafts down to existing deep tube stations is an expensive business. It's why South Ken would have cost £50m, whereas Southfields, for example, had a complete refurbishment and new lifts for only $15m


 
But all the pre-1920 Tube stations already have lift shafts?

True, some of them come to the surface far from the current station entrances, many of which were built when the escalators were put in...


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## Crispy (Apr 23, 2013)

Having now looked into South Ken, it is indeed a disgrace that the existing lift shafts have not been re-used. They go directly from alongside the surface platforms and were in use as recently as 1974. It shouldn't cost £50m.


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 23, 2013)

laptop said:


> But all the pre-1920 Tube stations already have lift shafts?
> 
> True, some of them come to the surface far from the current station entrances, many of which were built when the escalators were put in...


 
Not quite sure about 'all' but certainly quite a few.  Although in a number of cases the lifts did not run from street level and / or to platform level.

e.g. at Angel (before it was rebuilt) there was a short flight of stairs from platform level to the lower landing of the lifts


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## Crispy (Apr 23, 2013)

They're going to have to do the same thing to the narrow Clapham stations one day soon. I'm amazed that people don't die there on a regular basis.


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## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Not quite sure about 'all' but certainly quite a few. Although in a number of cases the lifts did not run from street level and / or to platform level.
> 
> e.g. at Angel (before it was rebuilt) there was a short flight of stairs from platform level to the lower landing of the lifts


and at the angel you could go up in the lift if you were paying or up the stairs if you weren't.


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## leanderman (Apr 23, 2013)

Crispy said:


> They're going to have to do the same thing to the narrow Clapham stations one day soon. I'm amazed that people don't die there on a regular basis.


 
Exactly. It is a real shock getting on or off at Clapham Common.

Wapping, in East London Line days, was terrifying too


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## Puddy_Tat (Apr 23, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> and at the angel you could go up in the lift if you were paying or up the stairs if you weren't.


 
think the same thing applied at a few tube (and i mean tube not just underground) stations at the time - ticket checks were done by the lift operator.  I'm sure I went somewhere on the tube where the lift attendant also sold tickets (both prior to UTS / ticket gates)


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## Pickman's model (Apr 23, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> think the same thing applied at a few tube (and i mean tube not just underground) stations at the time - ticket checks were done by the lift operator. I'm sure I went somewhere on the tube where the lift attendant also sold tickets (both prior to UTS / ticket gates)


and there was rarely an attendant at mill hill east so you could swipe any discarded tickets, which frequently included one day travelcards that could be flogged on for a quid.


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## CH1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Used Denmark Hill station the other day, only to find the old entrance blocked off and a new fully accessible entrance open round the corner in Champion Park. It seems there is actually funding available for such upgrades. I guess in the case of East Brixton the problem is making a case for the need for the station.
Good to see mooted plans for improvements coming to fruition though (the new facilities have been in use since 5th August). http://www.rail-news.com/2011/01/05/new-images-show-denmark-hill-will-be-more-accessible-for-all/


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## Crispy (Aug 29, 2013)

The Denmark Hill improvements are peanuts compared to the major engineering required for a Brixton station.


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## CH1 (Aug 29, 2013)

Crispy said:


> The Denmark Hill improvements are peanuts compared to the major engineering required for a Brixton station.


 
You mean the problem of re-erecting platforms I assume. Only two lifts are needed at East Brixton compared to Denmark Hill's three.
Denmark Hill has a whole new gantry arrangement to support the walkways as can be seen in the design photo in the article above. I think you are exaggerating the comparison.


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## Crispy (Aug 29, 2013)

Oh, sorry didn't realise you said East Brixton  Sure, not so much of a big project. But it'll never happen while the possibility, however slim, of a "proper" station remains. If E.Brixton was open, why would anyone bother funding a new station a few hundred meters up the line? It's all or nothing, IMO.

"Just good enough" stopgap solutions are a perennial symptom of the short-term planning of infrastructure projects in this country.


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## editor (Aug 29, 2013)

Well, I'd like it if East Brixton reopened, thanks very much. It would provide a useful and necessary rail link.

Plus all those town planning types could then get excited about it "opening up Coldharbour Lane" with "increased footfall" and all that bollocks too.


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## Peanut Monkey (Aug 29, 2013)

editor said:


> Well, I'd like it if East Brixton reopened, thanks very much. It would provide a useful and necessary rail link.
> 
> Plus all those town planning types could then get excited about it "opening up Coldharbour Lane" with "increased footfall" and all that bollocks too.


 

Reopening up Brixton East wouldn't be great fun for all those who's flats back onto the line near where the station was (including mine).


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## editor (Aug 29, 2013)

Peanut Monkey said:


> Reopening up Brixton East wouldn't be great fun for all those who's flats back onto the line near where the station was (including mine).


Are you sure? The station was high up and I can't think of any flats that have been built close to it.


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## Peanut Monkey (Aug 30, 2013)

editor said:


> Are you sure? The station was high up and I can't think of any flats that have been built close to it.


 

It wouldn't be the station that'd be the problem more the braking of the trains as they approached it. We're in the houses that back onto the line between Barrington Road and Loughborough Junction.


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## fogbat (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> They're going to have to do the same thing to the narrow Clapham stations one day soon. I'm amazed that people don't die there on a regular basis.


Someone fell off the platform at Clapham North just a few weeks back. Thankfully he got pulled back onto the platform in seconds.


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## Garek (Aug 30, 2013)

It will happen though at some point. It can't not happen. It might just be awhile. Same with the Shoreditch Central Line-Overground interchange.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2013)

Garek said:


> It will happen though at some point. It can't not happen. It might just be awhile. Same with the Shoreditch Central Line-Overground interchange.


I wouldn't get too excited about that one tbh. There's plenty of places where lines cross without stations and nothing ever happens. Putting a new station on a running tube line is serious business indeed.


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## Garek (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> I wouldn't get too excited about that one tbh. There's plenty of places where lines cross without stations and nothing ever happens. Putting a new station on a running tube line is serious business indeed.


 

Yeah, but the business case for it is pretty strong. And it is something they are considering once Crossrail is out the way.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2013)

Garek said:


> Yeah, but the business case for it is pretty strong. And it is something they are considering once Crossrail is out the way.


Can you provide a citation for that? Cos all I've ever heard is "wouldn't it be nice" and echo-chamber speculation from rail nerds, but never any actual formal consideration by TfL.


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## Garek (Aug 30, 2013)

Crispy said:


> Can you provide a citation for that? Cos all I've ever heard is "wouldn't it be nice" and echo-chamber speculation from rail nerds, but never any actual formal consideration by TfL.


 

Oh really? I thought it was on London Reconnections? I am probably remembering incorrectly then.


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## Crispy (Aug 30, 2013)

Garek said:


> Oh really? I thought it was on London Reconnections? I am probably remembering incorrectly then.


I've read it loads of places too, but I went looking and couldn't find anything from the horse's mouth, as it were.


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## editor (Jan 31, 2014)

The Londonist has published a list of ‘15 Ways To Improve London’s Train Network‘ and included a plea to reopen East Brixton station.

Background: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/01/reopen-east-brixton-railway-station-says-london-news-website/


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## leanderman (Jan 31, 2014)

editor said:


> The Londonist has published a list of ‘15 Ways To Improve London’s Train Network‘ and included a plea to reopen East Brixton station.
> 
> Background: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/01/reopen-east-brixton-railway-station-says-london-news-website/



Surely the new station area masterplan will link Brixton to this line, if not Brixton East?


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## Belushi (Jan 31, 2014)

I like all the suggestions on that list, particularly splitting the District line creating a new 'Wimbleware' line


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## Crispy (Jan 31, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Surely the new station area masterplan will link Brixton to this line, if not Brixton East?


Yes, the current masterplan reserves space for high-level platforms, but there's no funding in place. It's aspirational, at best.


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## Ol Nick (Jan 31, 2014)

I like our train service. For the first time in years I needed to go to West Dulwich and then a week later to Beckenham Junction. It was like rolling two double sixes. If only I needed to get Orpington tomorrow it would have been Yahtzee.


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## Ol Nick (Jan 31, 2014)

Oh and I wouldn't want a station at East Brixton till they do something about that suspicious abutment.


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## technical (Feb 1, 2014)

fogbat said:


> Someone fell off the platform at Clapham North just a few weeks back. Thankfully he got pulled back onto the platform in seconds.



I always thought if you fell on the rails you were toast?


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## Crispy (Feb 1, 2014)

technical said:


> I always thought if you fell on the rails you were toast?



Only if you touch the third rail, which at stations is on the opposite side of the tracks from the platform.
The tube has a 4th rail as well, in between the tracks, so it's easier to fry yourself on that.


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## ViolentPanda (Feb 1, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Only if you touch the third rail, which at stations is on the opposite side of the tracks from the platform.
> The tube has a 4th rail as well, in between the tracks, so it's easier to fry yourself on that.



I spied a tottering dosser,
a-pissing on the track.
His todger near-exploded
as the voltage jumped back.


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## ska invita (Feb 3, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Only if you touch the third rail, which at stations is on the opposite side of the tracks from the platform.
> The tube has a 4th rail as well, in between the tracks, so it's easier to fry yourself on that.


iirc you have to touch the third rail and touch the ground with your other foot, or other body part - i have a vague memory from childhood of people jumping onto the third rail with two feet as a dare ... at least im pretty certain birds can land on it and not get fried


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## laptop (Feb 3, 2014)

ska invita said:


> iirc you have to touch the third rail and touch the ground with your other foot, or other body part - i have a vague memory from childhood of people jumping onto the third rail with two feet as a dare ... at least im pretty certain birds can land on it and not get fried



Correct. Bit *do not attempt to verify* 

I had a look for "pissing on the third rail" stories yesterday, and all of them involved the victim touching the third rail with something other than a stream of urine. BTW.


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## MAD-T-REX (Feb 3, 2014)

I've heard that a lot of tube engineers will, at some point or another in their careers, touch a third (or fourth) rail and get a hell of a kick out of it but avoid serious injury. I can see why they use the 'Death is certain' warnings though; don't want some idiot pushing their luck.


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## laptop (Feb 3, 2014)

Damarr said:


> I've heard that a lot of tube engineers will, at some point or another in their careers, touch a third (or fourth) rail and get a hell of a kick out of it but avoid serious injury. I can see why they use the 'Death is certain' warnings though; don't want some idiot pushing their luck.



The trick is to keep the contact (a) dry and (b) brief. With 230V AC, I estimate a tenth of a second is getting on for too long - for a young, healthy heart.


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## Smick (Feb 4, 2014)

My father in law is a builder and was helping us do some work on our flat. He unwired a lit bathroom cabinet and taped up the cable. He warned me about touching the live cable but instead of the instant death which I had imagined, he seemed to suggest extreme pain. Since then I have been quite fascinated by it, wondering what it would feel like.


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2014)

Smick said:


> My father in law is a builder and was helping us do some work on our flat. He unwired a lit bathroom cabinet and taped up the cable. He warned me about touching the live cable but instead of the instant death which I had imagined, he seemed to suggest extreme pain. Since then I have been quite fascinated by it, wondering what it would feel like.



I got thrown across the living room from very 
stupidly touching a live cable from the mains with a metal tool. 

It's terrifying but not that bad. I guess the circuit breaker in the consumer unit saved me from serious harm.


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## 19sixtysix (Feb 4, 2014)

ska invita said:


> .. at least im pretty certain birds can land on it and not get fried



It is safe to jump on the line because it being direct current at the same potential though out its length. Please note this can not always be said of a.c. lines especially the ones transporting shortwave electricity to the aerial. Birds were known to be electrocuted as they landed as the potential could rise steeply due to standing waves on the line. The evidence usually found was a dead bird beneath the line and two cooked legs left stuck on the line. Not a nice way to go.


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## Smick (Feb 4, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I got thrown across the living room from very
> stupidly touching a live cable from the mains with a metal tool.
> 
> It's terrifying but not that bad. I guess the circuit breaker in the consumer unit saved me from serious harm.


 
My last post could possibly be the opening paragraph from a Darwin Awards entry.


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## leanderman (Feb 4, 2014)

Smick said:


> My last post could possibly be the opening paragraph from a Darwin Awards entry.



Yep. 

Got a couple of light-circuit shocks from similar stupidity. They are quite mild and don't give the same sound and light show.


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## CH1 (Feb 21, 2014)

editor said:


> The Londonist has published a list of ‘15 Ways To Improve London’s Train Network‘ and included a plea to reopen East Brixton station. Background: http://www.brixtonbuzz.com/2014/01/reopen-east-brixton-railway-station-says-london-news-website/


There is an online petion: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60358
Greebo, Chilavert, Dexter Deadwood


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## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 21, 2014)

leanderman said:


> I got thrown across the living room from very
> stupidly touching a live cable from the mains with a metal tool.
> 
> It's terrifying but not that bad. I guess the circuit breaker in the consumer unit saved me from serious harm.


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## Dexter Deadwood (Feb 21, 2014)

CH1 said:


> There is an online petion: http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/60358
> Greebo, Chilavert, Dexter Deadwood



I've never been one for e petitions, clicktivism seems to have little impact in this system we call democracy but i'm open to persuasion.


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## CH1 (Feb 21, 2014)

Dexter Deadwood said:


> I've never been one for e petitions, clicktivism seems to have little impact in this system we call democracy but i'm open to persuasion.


So far there are 368 signatures. I don't know who started it.

Can you see any scope for having a kind of mini-referendum on this locally?
Coldharbour is a safe Labour Ward. I think it might be interesting to field candidates on specifically local issues.

I'm pissed off with democracy myself. Surely there is scope to advocate for a few specific local issues without the baggage of the currently dire party political stuff?


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Feb 21, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Can you see any scope for having a kind of mini-referendum on this locally?



TBH I don't see that there is. It's not really a 'local' issue in that sense because it's about the wider transport network and funding as well. So the people near there would like a new train station - that's fine but it doesn't in itself say why they should get one there ahead of lots of other places.


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## leanderman (Feb 22, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> TBH I don't see that there is. It's not really a 'local' issue in that sense because it's about the wider transport network and funding as well. So the people near there would like a new train station - that's fine but it doesn't in itself say why they should get one there ahead of lots of other places.



Exactly. It would be tough to show that - if a new Brixton station were to be opened - it should be at Brixton East. In fact, Brixton (central) seems more logical. Much more.


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## CH1 (Feb 22, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Exactly. It would be tough to show that - if a new Brixton station were to be opened - it should be at Brixton East. In fact, Brixton (central) seems more logical. Much more.


I don't agree at all.

Lambeth thinking is currently over-grandiose to the point where the Hollamby 50 storey office blocks/skyscrapers people fought against in the 1970s will arrive by default (if not by popular acclaim).

Apparently the cost of a grand interchange between Overground/South East trains & the underground at Brixton station is estimated at £70 million.

The upper-level line is too curved to use for platforms by modern standards, so not only do you have the problem of providing platforms in the sky - you also have to re-route the line somehow. One possibility considered was to get rid of the Railway Hotel/Bradys building (or the upper storeys). Alternatively trying to move the line slightly north-wards - which would impinge on Marks & Spencers.

All this might happen by 2030 if you are lucky.

The alternative at at East Brixton would be pocket money by comarison.

I have a further objection which no-body yet seems to be considering.
The problem with Brixton's development right now is a drift towards wine bars & standardisation (and piss poor architecture).
What do you think will happen if there is a mega interchange which needs cross-subsidy from property development then? "Heathrow" come from the same liguistic root as "Effra". Indeed.

Finally it is regularly remarked here that the tube station is closed in the rush hour due to platform overcrowding.
And you want MORE overcrowding?


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## leanderman (Feb 22, 2014)

CH1 said:


> I don't agree at all.
> 
> Lambeth thinking is currently over-grandiose to the point where the Hollamby 50 storey office blocks/skyscrapers people fought against in the 1970s will arrive by default (if not by popular acclaim).
> 
> ...



Might a train link actually reduce overcrowding on the Tube?


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## CH1 (Feb 22, 2014)

leanderman said:


> Might a train link actually reduce overcrowding on the Tube?


Not if it is coming from Peckham/Denmark Hill.
"Change at Brixton for Stockwell and Northern line, Vauxhall and all stations to Walthamstow" I can hear it now!


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## leanderman (Feb 22, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Not if it is coming from Peckham/Denmark Hill.
> "Change at Brixton for Stockwell and Northern line, Vauxhall and all stations to Walthamstow" I can hear it now!



Lambeth has commissioned a study into it all anyway.


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## Crispy (Feb 22, 2014)

CH1 said:


> Not if it is coming from Peckham/Denmark Hill.
> "Change at Brixton for Stockwell and Northern line, Vauxhall and all stations to Walthamstow" I can hear it now!


If you want the northern line from the Overground, change at Clapham North


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## CH1 (Nov 19, 2014)

The Lambeth Overground consultants report is out: http://lambeth.gov.uk/sites/default/files/ec-lambeth-overground-stations-study-report-2014.pdf

Many of the illustrations will be familiar from other documents such as the recent LJAG Loughborough Junction Masterplan and the Brixton Central consultations.

The conclusions are that access improvement works should be done at Wandsworth Road, Clapham High Street, Brixton SR and Loughborough Junction, all of which can be accomplished by 2019.

As for a new station to access the Overground in Brixton, this is pushed forward into the period post 2020 and all options are really ruled out.

Brixton too expensive and not certain to be physically feasible.

Loughborough Junction also too expensive and requiring lengthy route closure.

East Brixton - required lengthy line closure and dependent on progress of the Brixton Central development.

I would say the report is really a non-feasibility study.


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## Crispy (Nov 19, 2014)

It looks like any new stations would require rebuilding of the entire viaduct in order to achieve a straighter track. For the Overground, this would mean demolishing everything between the lines and popes road. However, it could allow the creation of a station with platforms on all three lines, which would be amazing. Cost ~£100m


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## editor (Apr 24, 2020)

Cracking pic here, just before closure 



A woman waiting for a train at East Brixton railway station, London, UK, 16th December 1975. (Photo by Evening Standard/Hulton Archive/Getty Images)


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## CH1 (Jan 2, 2022)

lang rabbie raised an issue on Twitter


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## lang rabbie (Jan 6, 2022)

CH1 said:


> lang rabbie raised an issue on Twitter



Not sure why embedded tweets aren't displaying. Here's a cut and paste:

"I had never realised East Brixton had a brief period as a terminus.  Wonder if that explains the odd layout of some of the local viaducts? One for @urban75"


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## CH1 (Jan 6, 2022)

lang rabbie said:


> Not sure why embedded tweets aren't displaying. Here's a cut and paste:
> 
> "I had never realised East Brixton had a brief period as a terminus.  Wonder if that explains the odd layout of some of the local viaducts? One for @urban75"
> View attachment 304830


Ta. Can't remember where it was posted but didn't editor writing something about the peculiar truncated siding at East Brixton.
In fact this is on the Catford loop side  isn't it? Therefore not on the erstwhile South London line side.

Maybe something might be revealed from an aerial view?


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