# Future of S4C



## Flagwaver (Nov 3, 2010)

Anyone here attending the protest on Saturday against cuts to S4C funding and incorporation into BBC?

I will go, but only to protest against the bleatings of the pampered Welsh speaking media set, who want to plead special ringfencing and protection for their cosy little set-up. Not that I want Welsh language broadcasting to be done away with entirely, but I think the present situation is a great opportunity for the Welsh (English-speaking) majority to make its voice heard. Which I intend to do.


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## ernestolynch (Nov 3, 2010)

R U BNP?


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## fogbat (Nov 3, 2010)

My sister and her bf will be there. But largely because he works at S4C, and his job may be at risk, rather than any great support for S4C's ethos (which, as far as I can understand, involves a commitment to producing crap Welsh-language versions of popular English-language programmes).


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## kyser_soze (Nov 3, 2010)

S4C is a joke. It doesn't have a single show that gets enough viewers to get a BARB rating point. Ever. It's a financial hole.


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## fogbat (Nov 3, 2010)

Not even Pobol y Cwm?


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## kyser_soze (Nov 3, 2010)

Nope. Fuck all.


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## Silurian (Nov 3, 2010)

fogbat said:


> ... a commitment to producing crap Welsh-language versions of popular English-language programmes.



What was the English equivalent of this then, the best show in British broadcasting history, ever?


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## lewislewis (Nov 3, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> S4C is a joke. It doesn't have a single show that gets enough viewers to get a BARB rating point. Ever. It's a financial hole.



O RLY?

The fact it is a minority language channel kind of defeats the point of getting BARB ratings.

It is not a financial hole, it supports 2,250 jobs in the independent TV production sector, and generates £87m of private sector revenue.

Here's the truth about the anti-Welsh fabrication that "S4C gets literally zero viewers"
http://broken-tv.blogspot.com/2010/10/you-have-not-been-watching.html

Haters gonna hate.


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## fogbat (Nov 3, 2010)

Silurian said:


> What was the English equivalent of this then, the best show in British broadcasting history, ever?




I'm not saying that's all they've ever done. I remember Pelydr X years back was a great Welsh-language satire series.

But they produce a hell of a lot of unoriginal dross 

Was never a big fan of Frank & Frank tbh.


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## lewislewis (Nov 3, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Nope. Fuck all.


 
You're misinformed mate.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 3, 2010)

I used to buy TV. C4 can't include S4C in it's ratings packages because it's viewing figures are sooo teeny. Just because it's a minority channel doesn't mean it's exempt from BARB ratings when it comes to buying ad space on it.


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## butchersapron (Nov 3, 2010)

I used to watch Sgorio when i was still into european football but i gave up a few years back. Seems like i wasn't the only one as it recored viewing figures of zero for an edition earlier in the year. Zero.


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## badlands (Nov 3, 2010)

495,000 watched the Cardiff City Bristol City match on S4C


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## lewislewis (Nov 3, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> I used to buy TV. C4 can't include S4C in it's ratings packages because it's viewing figures are sooo teeny. Just because it's a minority channel doesn't mean it's exempt from BARB ratings when it comes to buying ad space on it.


 
Yeah but it's a minority language channel, only 1% of the UK population can speak Welsh fluently, it isn't exempt from those ratings fair enough, but how is a minority language channel supposed to be commercially viable in terms of "ad space"? The role of S4C is cultural and creative, not to sell ad space. The viewing figures are relatively strong. Suggesting S4C is watched by nobody is an anti-Welsh con usually propagated by cultural imperialists and free marketeers. Not saying you're one- I have no idea who you are- but the anti-S4C agenda is being driven by right-wingers and neo-colonialists. It must be resisted.

I question whether "zero" actually means not a single human, it's more to do with terminology as far as I know, particularly as I know for a fact that Sgorio is one of the best S4C programmes.

S4C is an extremely productive use of public money and it is right that broadcasting should be state sponsored rather than market-driven.


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## butchersapron (Nov 3, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> <snip>
> 
> I question whether "zero" actually means not a single human, it's more to do with terminology as far as I know, particularly as I know for a fact that Sgorio is one of the best S4C programmes.
> 
> S4C is an extremely productive use of public money and it is right that broadcasting should be state sponsored rather than market-driven.


 
Zero means under 2500. It could be zero, or it could be 2499 but it appears in BARB as zero.


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## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I used to watch Sgorio when i was still into european football but i gave up a few years back. Seems like i wasn't the only one as it recored viewing figures of zero for an edition earlier in the year. Zero.


 
I watch sgorio still. Zero figure thing was a con - they have a thousand households across the UK which are recorded. If not one of those 1000 homes watches sgorio then it records zero. Bollocks. How many of that small sample can even recieve S4C?

I'd watched the sgorio they were banging on about having had no viewers, btw. So it had at least one.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 3, 2010)

> Not saying you're one- I have no idea who you are- but the anti-S4C agenda is being driven by right-wingers and neo-colonialists. It must be resisted.



Having it folded into the BBC would probably do more to safeguard it than expecting C4 - a commercial organisation - to keep fuding it.


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## butchersapron (Nov 3, 2010)

Proper Tidy said:


> I watch sgorio still. Zero figure thing was a con - they have a thousand households across the UK which are recorded. If not one of those 1000 homes watches sgorio then it records zero. Bollocks. How many of that small sample can even recieve S4C?
> 
> I'd watched the sgorio they were banging on about having had no viewers, btw. So it had at least one.


 That's handy eh?


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## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2010)

Admittedly I'd actually Sky plussed it.


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## 1927 (Nov 3, 2010)

Best thing would be to integrate so many hours a week into normal channels as used tobe the case, the language doesnt need its own tv channel to survive. Are we expected to believe that welsh speakers only watch s4C and that they are never tempted to watch Sky1 or Channel 5 or any other channel.


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## Proper Tidy (Nov 3, 2010)

Probably not channel 5, no.


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 3, 2010)

I watched a bit of BBC Alba last night trying to explain British minority languages to my French and Polish flatmates. 

I couldn't understand a thing


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## ernestolynch (Nov 3, 2010)

I watch it on Sky digi.

More BNP Unionist shite from the usual suspects...


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## Macsacel (Nov 3, 2010)

Good lord, you've been wrong in virtually every post you've made. I have access to BARB ratings and everything you've said about S4C's viewing figures are wrong. And its not funded by Channel4, its funded by the DCMS. I'm all in favour of an open debate about S4C (Christ knows its needed) but try using facts maybe?


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## littlebabyjesus (Nov 3, 2010)

1927 said:


> Best thing would be to integrate so many hours a week into normal channels as used tobe the case, the language doesnt need its own tv channel to survive. Are we expected to believe that welsh speakers only watch s4C and that they are never tempted to watch Sky1 or Channel 5 or any other channel.


 
That was sometimes really frustrating though, as a non-Welsh speaking Welsh person. When we used to get S4C and not Channel 4, we'd miss out on loads of good stuff, or it would be on two weeks later at 1 in the morning. 

Before that, I never saw Trumpton because of Welsh language children's shows. They used to pick on really odd things to replace. 

Not saying there shouldn't be Welsh language TV, just that as an English speaker, it was sometimes annoying that it meant missing out on English language stuff.

The Welsh language rock shows were good though.


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## lewislewis (Nov 4, 2010)

Macsacel said:


> Good lord, you've been wrong in virtually every post you've made. I have access to BARB ratings and everything you've said about S4C's viewing figures are wrong. And its not funded by Channel4, its funded by the DCMS. I'm all in favour of an open debate about S4C (Christ knows its needed) but try using facts maybe?


 
Finally, some sense!

The anti-S4C posters on here are mostly getting their facts wrong.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 4, 2010)

Anyone know what that welsh speaking series on SC4 was where live animals talked and drove cars? The main character was a duck. 80s.


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## ddraig (Nov 4, 2010)

told you before! Will Kwak Kwak

as to S pedwar C, leave it be you non Welsh meddlers!


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## lewislewis (Nov 4, 2010)

The truth about S4C has emerged with this article today- http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/c...et-them-spoil-a-good-headline-91466-27600820/

It literally explodes the myths the anti-S4C group of posters are peddling.

I am not saying S4C is some kind of amazing channel, just that it is useful and productive.


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## fogbat (Nov 4, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> The truth about S4C has emerged with this article today- http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/c...et-them-spoil-a-good-headline-91466-27600820/
> 
> It literally explodes the myths the anti-S4C group of posters are peddling.
> 
> I am not saying S4C is some kind of amazing channel, just that it is useful and productive.


 
Don't you think you're being a bit melodramatic with a phrase like "anti-S4C group of posters"?


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## Flagwaver (Nov 4, 2010)

fogbat said:


> Don't you think you're being a bit melodramatic with a phrase like "anti-S4C group of posters"?



Very good point. Many people in Wales, including those of us who consider ourselves flag waving patriots and so forth, have some misgivings about S4C and the rise and rise of the pampered bourgeois cultural 'elite'. Those seeking to create some false dichotomy black-vs-white scenario, where we either support S4C, or are critical and anti-Welsh, are close-minded and wrong. 

Lazy and dogmantic and cultish!


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## lewislewis (Nov 5, 2010)

What I find lazy and dogmatic is the perception of a pampered cultural elite. Most of the jobs that S4C supports is in independent film companies, typically in the north-west of Wales and sometimes in the south-west, where average wages are among the lowest in the UK. 

What I would accept is that the rhetoric I use on national issues is often melodramatic though, because the political thinkers that influenced me on the national question and anti-colonialism were usually writing from environments of much more current oppression and imperialism than the Welsh situation.


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## Ben Bore (Nov 5, 2010)

Pity S4C didn't come up with the piece in the Western Mail this week questioning BARB figures sooner as damage has already been done.

There's been loads on really really poor programmes on S4C (reality shows), or programmes that I just don't like (anything to do with music).  These are the ones that stick in peoples minds when they think of the channel and has caused the channel to fall off the radar of many Welsh speakers.

Thing is, if you can be bothered to have a look at the listing (which can sometimes be tricky if you only read London-centric newspapers), there's some decent stuff on it.  I personally like factual and arts programes

I'd currently recommend
Cartrefi Cefn Gwlad Cymru - looking at building styles of houses in Wales throughout history
Pethe - Arts/culture programme
Gwlad Beirdd - profile of leading poets of the 20th Century, putting their works in context with the times they lived in.


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## Gavin Bl (Nov 5, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Very good point. Many people in Wales, including those of us who consider ourselves flag waving patriots and so forth, have some misgivings about S4C and the rise and rise of the pampered bourgeois cultural 'elite'. Those seeking to create some false dichotomy black-vs-white scenario, where we either support S4C, or are critical and anti-Welsh, are close-minded and wrong.
> 
> Lazy and dogmantic and cultish!



You kicked off the thread denouncing S4C as part of the 'bourgeois cultural elite' - and now you're accusing people who disagreed of being dogmatic and creating a black and white scenario - which was exactly what you did in the opening post.

My last welsh teacher worked for BBC Cymru, and was so well paid that he took part-time work to make a decent living.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 5, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That was sometimes really frustrating though, as a non-Welsh speaking Welsh person. When we used to get S4C and not Channel 4, we'd miss out on loads of good stuff, or it would be on two weeks later at 1 in the morning.



Freeview, on which C4 is easily findable, has rendered this once-valid criticism out of date nowadays, as I'm sure you know.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 5, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Having it folded into the BBC would probably do more to safeguard it than expecting C4 - a commercial organisation - to keep fuding it.



From my limited knowledge, this seems at least a half way reasonable point in terms of sheer realism about finances?

I'd be interested to see responses to that point specifically from lewislewis and others mind.


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## Flagwaver (Nov 5, 2010)

Gavin Bl said:


> You kicked off the thread denouncing S4C as part of the 'bourgeois cultural elite' - .......
> My last welsh teacher worked for BBC Cymru, and was so well paid that he took part-time work to make a decent living.



Perhaps this cultural elite isn't as well-paid as their social attitudes suggest, but that would not detract from the fact that they are a cultural elite. Not all of them may be part of an 'economic elite', but they do tend to go to watch polo matches and that cannot be denied!


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## 8ball (Nov 5, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> That was sometimes really frustrating though, as a non-Welsh speaking Welsh person. When we used to get S4C and not Channel 4, we'd miss out on loads of good stuff, or it would be on two weeks later at 1 in the morning.


 
Yes, that was a pain in the arse.

I was never sure why they kicked the Welsh language programmes off the BBC in the first place.

FFALABALAMBALOOBALAMBALAYYYYY!!!


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## butchersapron (Nov 5, 2010)

8ball said:


> Yes, that was a pain in the arse.
> 
> I was never sure why they kicked the Welsh language programmes off the BBC in the first place.
> 
> FFALABALAMBALOOBALAMBALAYYYYY!!!



Steady on, you might re-awken Macsacel


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## Gavin Bl (Nov 5, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Perhaps this cultural elite isn't as well-paid as their social attitudes suggest



er, 'pampered bourgeois cultural elite'.


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## Brockway (Nov 5, 2010)

I've been enjoying _Pen Talar _and I like _Bandit_. I even quite like _Wedi 7_. S4C could definitely be improved but that's true of Welsh television in general. Welsh progs in English on BBC and ITV are far worse - stereotyping gone mad. Wales reduced to Katherine, Tom, choirs, rugby, religion and mining. Ewwwww. I like having S4C there - I think it makes Wales more culturally interesting. I'd rather money was spent on Welsh-language telly than the Royal Family or Sebastian Coe's Olympic ego trip.


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## 8ball (Nov 6, 2010)

Brockway said:


> I'd rather money was spent on Welsh-language telly than the Royal Family or Sebastian Coe's Olympic ego trip.


 
Faint praise indeed.


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## Dic Penderyn (Nov 7, 2010)

As a non-welsh speaker I am a regular viewer of S4C due to the rugby coverage. Sports journalism is fairly pointless and I enjoy the opportunity to talk over the telly.

They used to show French Top14, but not recently. Shame.


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## William of Walworth (Nov 7, 2010)

8ball said:


> Faint praise indeed.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Nov 8, 2010)

I think there should be a Welsh language channel, but it might as well be on the internet now.

a "chitiwb" if you like.


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## Silurian (Nov 9, 2010)

Prior to all this recent hoo-haah, I discussed w.others why it was that S4C hadn't been brought under Assembly control. My cynicism said that one reason why it hadn't been vigorously demanded was that S4C and its funding would then have to dangerously contend with English-speaking Wales. Some insurance therefore came from having S4C stay London-funded, since people from that end of the M4 just wouldn't dare to meddle (in the way Welsh Labour and others might well.)

My recipe for the future of S4C has been the same for some time. It ought to be brought into Welsh control, answerable to AMs and made more properly bi-lingual - i.e. not just this 'Subtitles are just as good' crap.


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## Ben Bore (Nov 9, 2010)

Silurian said:


> My recipe for the future of S4C has been the same for some time. It ought to be brought into Welsh control, answerable to AMs and made more properly bi-lingual - i.e. not just this 'Subtitles are just as good' crap.


 
With half the amount of Welsh language programming then?  Granted that the channel is full of repeats, but having to produce English language programmes would take more money away from creating Welsh lang content.

A novel idea would be to have Welsh interest programmes (in English) on BBC 2 Wales.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 9, 2010)

I would hate to lose Clwb Rygbi and Sgorio.  We even had a French rugby programme on there once.  That was class.  And the music programme, that I forget the name of.  Alsways good for checking the local bands.  

Nothing wrong with getting BBC to sort it though.  I'm sure it's qunatity rather than quality the Cymraeg-folk would want.  

Pontcanna is going to burn....


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## llantwit (Nov 9, 2010)

I third the vote for Y Clwb Rybgi - I really value having that on the box. And also value not having to listen to the comentary every now and then.


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## fogbat (Nov 9, 2010)

If they scrap Pobol Y Cwm, a couple of casinos in Cardiff will see their profits drop right off...


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## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Perhaps this cultural elite isn't as well-paid as their social attitudes suggest, but that would not detract from the fact that they are a cultural elite. Not all of them may be part of an 'economic elite', but they do tend to go to watch polo matches and that cannot be denied!


 
I'm aware you might be taking the piss, but that website isn't even bilingual.

It's a slur.

They are not a cultural elite at all.


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## la ressistance (Nov 9, 2010)

fogbat said:


> If they scrap Pobol Y Cwm, a couple of casinos in Cardiff will see their profits drop right off...


 

also, the coke dealers of cardiff are finding life tough enough in this resection without losing pobl actors.


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## Silurian (Nov 9, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> I'm aware you might be taking the piss, but that website isn't even bilingual.
> 
> It's a slur.
> 
> They are not a cultural elite at all.



There is a cultural elite developing, along such lines as would make Raymond Williams and other cultural nationalist campaigners turn in their graves. You don't have to be a Welsh-speaker to watch polo naturally, but that's not the point is it?! A brief search through the gallery on St David's Polo website will display ample evidence that S4C types make their presence strongly felt as such prestigious events, just look at them photos.

 And we're lucky that that damned 'Welsh Opera House' wasn't built, a close-run thing though as you know!






Ben Bore said:


> With half the amount of Welsh language programming then?  Granted that the channel is full of repeats, but having to produce English language programmes would take more money away from creating Welsh lang content.
> 
> A novel idea would be to have Welsh interest programmes (in English) on BBC 2 Wales.



More novel still, how about taking pains to truely instill S4C and THE Welsh boradcaster, enjoying the overwhelming lion's share of monies and catering to both 'communities' in the bi-lingual Wales. 

It would help greatly if the English speaking majority was able to fully embrace S4C as their favoured broadcaster, and to fight for its right to thrive, as opposed to having that Welsh majority merely lending tacit 'support'/compliance in opinion polls and occasioanl anecdotal thumbs-up gestrues in readers' letters pages and so forth. 



fogbat said:


> If they scrap Pobol Y Cwm, a couple of casinos in Cardiff will see their profits drop right off...



Its a 'slur' this kind of talk apparently.



la ressistance said:


> also, the coke dealers of cardiff are finding life tough enough in this resection without losing pobl actors.



Such has been the widely-held perception for some time now, amongst outsiders to this clique. Again, now confirmed as mere slur and trouble-making gossip tactics.


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## la ressistance (Nov 9, 2010)

Silurian said:


> Such has been the widely-held perception for some time now, amongst outsiders to this clique. Again, now confirmed as mere slur and trouble-making gossip tactics.



really? how do you know?


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## Silurian (Nov 9, 2010)

Lewislewis whispered it to me.


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## badlands (Nov 10, 2010)

My cousins go to the polo thing

and they are chavs

along with most of the people there


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## fogbat (Nov 10, 2010)

Silurian said:


> Its a 'slur' this kind of talk apparently.


 
Don't assume I agree with you, cheers.

I was just gossiping about one particular actor on one particular programme.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2010)

Silurian said:


> There is a cultural elite developing, along such lines as would make Raymond Williams and other cultural nationalist campaigners turn in their graves. You don't have to be a Welsh-speaker to watch polo naturally, but that's not the point is it?! A brief search through the gallery on St David's Polo website will display ample evidence that S4C types make their presence strongly felt as such prestigious events, just look at them photos.
> 
> And we're lucky that that damned 'Welsh Opera House' wasn't built, a close-run thing though as you know!
> 
> ...


 You think raymond williams was a cultural nationalist?


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> You think raymond williams was a cultural nationalist?


 
I know that he was. What's your opinion on this?


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

badlands said:


> My cousins go to the polo thing
> 
> and they are chavs
> 
> along with most of the people there


 
Most people who go to see polo matches are 'chavs' are they? S4C types and 'chavs', real nice.

Its amusing to think that the 'chav' housing estates of South Wales would empty half their unemplyed of a weekend to all go and 'subvert' a polo match by just turning and being themselves. If as you say 'chavs' have been turning up to watch polo in Cardiff, then I suspect any 'subverting' is posisbly in the other direction. I would like to see photos of 'chavs' goign to the polo though, if any are available.


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2010)

I know that he wasn't.


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## badlands (Nov 10, 2010)

I wrote a pilot for S4C in conjunction with ITV about a multi ethnic welsh speaking school in Cardiff Bay (sort of Grange Hill but in welsh)

S4C's response,

"wales is not ready for this"


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## butchersapron (Nov 10, 2010)

A  damning comment on wales and welsh attiitudes.


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> I know that he wasn't.



Good enough.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 10, 2010)

badlands said:


> I wrote a pilot for S4C in conjunction with ITV about a multi ethnic welsh speaking school in Cardiff Bay (sort of Grange Hill but in welsh)
> 
> S4C's response,
> 
> "wales is not ready for this"


 
Fucking appalling.

Let's take the fuckers down, squire!


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## lewislewis (Nov 10, 2010)

Silurian said:


> I know that he was. What's your opinion on this?


 
He really, really, wasn't.


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## Brockway (Nov 10, 2010)

Flagwaver said:


> Perhaps this cultural elite isn't as well-paid as their social attitudes suggest, but that would not detract from the fact that they are a cultural elite. Not all of them may be part of an 'economic elite', but they do tend to go to watch polo matches and that cannot be denied!



I can see a couple of BBC Wales newsreaders there. Who are the S4C people pictured at that charity event?


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## Brockway (Nov 10, 2010)

Silurian said:


> There is a cultural elite developing, along such lines as would make Raymond Williams and other cultural nationalist campaigners turn in their graves. You don't have to be a Welsh-speaker to watch polo naturally, but that's not the point is it?! A brief search through the gallery on St David's Polo website will display ample evidence that S4C types make their presence strongly felt as such prestigious events, just look at them photos.
> 
> And we're lucky that that damned 'Welsh Opera House' wasn't built, a close-run thing though as you know!



What's an S4C type? Do you mean Welsh-speakers? All I can see in those pictures are a bunch of middle-class people from areas like Cowbridge, Cyncoed and Radyr poncing around at a charity bash.


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> He really, really, wasn't.


 
I described RW thusly in the middle of writing a post on something else, but for sake of argument: Raymond Williams (a member of the nationalist Plaid Cymru) was interested in progressive forms of nationalism, and was too a cultural analyist. 

But the fact remains, that many in Wales feel considerably detached from S4C, its output, the social set that flounces aaround decked out in other people's money, and change is needed. Personally, I think the crachach has nothing about it that is progressive, leftist or any of the like.


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

Brockway said:


> What's an S4C type? Do you mean Welsh-speakers? All I can see in those pictures are a bunch of middle-class people from areas like Cowbridge, Cyncoed and Radyr poncing around at a charity bash.


 
Them's the ones. Oh, and that Pontcanna too!


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## Brockway (Nov 10, 2010)

Which part of Radyr do you live in then - the working-class ghetto part?


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Which part of Radyr do you live in then - the working-class ghetto part?



Ael-Y-Bryn.



fogbat said:


> Don't assume I agree with you, cheers.
> 
> I was just gossiping about one particular actor on one particular programme.


 
Otherwise known as empirical evidence.


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## Brockway (Nov 10, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> Fucking appalling.



I agree, that has to be one of the naffest and most patronising ideas for a TV show I have ever heard.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 10, 2010)

Brockway said:


> I agree, that has to be one of the naffest and most patronising ideas for a TV show I have ever heard.


 
Failing to see that.  But then I'm not a language-nazi with anti-Cardiff sentiments.  I suppose that for the usual white-centric 'old Welsh' folk, the idea that there might be a ground-swell of support for Cymraeg in inner-city Cardiff must be scary as fuck.  Imagine all those extra Welsh-speakers clogging up the employment chain and cocking up their own prospects.  Perish the thought!  Maybe one day Cymraeg will be granted the same status as English, rather than an exalted one that borders on untouchable.

And S4C effectively made the same programme with grown-ups and called it Caerdydd....


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## Brockway (Nov 10, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> Failing to see that.  But then I'm not a language-nazi with anti-Cardiff sentiments.  I suppose that for the usual white-centric 'old Welsh' folk, the idea that there might be a ground-swell of support for Cymraeg in inner-city Cardiff must be scary as fuck.  Imagine all those extra Welsh-speakers clogging up the employment chain and cocking up their own prospects.  Perish the thought!  Maybe one day Cymraeg will be granted the same status as English, rather than an exalted one that borders on untouchable.
> 
> And S4C effectively made the same programme with grown-ups and called it Caerdydd....



I don't think I've ever met a language Nazi. Can you name 10? I think we need to know who these people are - let's shame them. Your notion that all Welsh-speaking OAPs are somehow volkish fascists is a bit silly. As is the implication that all non Welsh-speaking people who live in working-class areas are salt of the earth, right-on types. You clearly have never lived on a council estate if you believe that racism doesn't exist in such places. I absolutely agree that it would good if more people spoke Welsh and that they came from working-class areas. That's why I think there should be an increase in Welsh-language schools. It amazes me that while a London government full of millionaires and ex-public school twerps is happily dismantling the state that some people are more preoccupied with indulging some rather odd prejudices that seem to involve a sinister cabal of Welsh-speaking druids. 

I saw _Caerdydd_. It wasn't a grown up version of Grange Hill at all. It was a bit crap though.


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## lewislewis (Nov 10, 2010)

Silurian said:


> I described RW thusly in the middle of writing a post on something else, but for sake of argument: Raymond Williams (a member of the nationalist Plaid Cymru) was interested in progressive forms of nationalism, and was too a cultural analyist.
> 
> But the fact remains, that many in Wales feel considerably detached from S4C, its output, the social set that flounces aaround decked out in other people's money, and change is needed. Personally, I think the crachach has nothing about it that is progressive, leftist or any of the like.


 
Raymond Williams was a cultural analyst, correct.

He was a Marxist. He was a socialist. He eventually subscribed to the political nationalism of Plaid Cymru.

He was not, at any point, a cultural nationalist. Gwyn Alf Williams, also a Marxist who subscribed to the political nationalism of Plaid Cymru, was also NOT a cultural nationalist.

Saunders Lewis was a cultural nationalist. Gwynfor Evans was a cultural nationalist. Ambrose Bebb, Lewis Valentine were cultural nationalists too. Raymond- wasn't. Gwyn Alf- wasn't.


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## Silurian (Nov 10, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> Raymond Williams was a cultural analyst, correct.
> 
> He was a Marxist. He was a socialist. He eventually subscribed to the political nationalism of Plaid Cymru.
> 
> ...



I knew that, I really REALLY did.


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## badlands (Nov 10, 2010)

Brockway said:


> I agree, that has to be one of the naffest and most patronising ideas for a TV show I have ever heard.



Oi, Basil Brush.

the idea was developed over a period of 9 months with S4C. They wanted a multi-cultural kids show. The idea came from a welsh speaking muslim guy. If you know fuck all about S4C you'll know who that is.

I was the hired hand (the writer)

We all grafted fucking hard on it, eventually got the script spot on and it was then after 9 long months that S4C decided to pull out. (cos they bottled it) 

boom boom


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## 1927 (Nov 11, 2010)

Brockway said:


> I agree, that has to be one of the naffest and most patronising ideas for a TV show I have ever heard.


 
Well you are the expert on patronising!


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## lewislewis (Nov 11, 2010)

Silurian said:


> I knew that, I really REALLY did.


 
I don't think you know enough about Raymond Williams, if you believe he was a cultural nationalist. But in a comradely fashion, i'd honestly be happy to point you to some links and articles.


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## Silurian (Nov 11, 2010)

lewislewis said:


> I don't think you know enough about Raymond Williams, if you believe he was a cultural nationalist. But in a comradely fashion, i'd honestly be happy to point you to some links and articles.



I was being flippant, but glad to offeryou an opportunity to shine!


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

.


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

badlands said:


> Oi, Basil Brush.
> 
> the idea was developed over a period of 9 months with S4C. They wanted a multi-cultural kids show. The idea came from a welsh speaking muslim guy. If you know fuck all about S4C you'll know who that is.
> 
> ...



Still sounds really awful. Ali?


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## badlands (Nov 11, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Still sounds really awful. Ali?



now you know the pain I went through


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

1927 said:


> Well you are the expert on patronising!



Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh. Are you the hardest man in Penarth?


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

badlands said:


> now you know the pain I went through


 
Is he still at Green Bay or did they have a falling out?


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## badlands (Nov 11, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Is he still at Green Bay or did they have a falling out?



I haven't seen him for a while.

I'd take a guess though,

fallen out.


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

Ah well. Good luck with the writing anyway.


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## badlands (Nov 11, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Ah well. Good luck with the writing anyway.



ta very much


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 11, 2010)

Brockway said:


> I don't think I've ever met a language Nazi. Can you name 10? I think we need to know who these people are - let's shame them. Your notion that all Welsh-speaking OAPs are somehow volkish fascists is a bit silly. As is the implication that all non Welsh-speaking people who live in working-class areas are salt of the earth, right-on types. You clearly have never lived on a council estate if you believe that racism doesn't exist in such places. I absolutely agree that it would good if more people spoke Welsh and that they came from working-class areas. That's why I think there should be an increase in Welsh-language schools. It amazes me that while a London government full of millionaires and ex-public school twerps is happily dismantling the state that some people are more preoccupied with indulging some rather odd prejudices that seem to involve a sinister cabal of Welsh-speaking druids.
> 
> I saw _Caerdydd_. It wasn't a grown up version of Grange Hill at all. It was a bit crap though.


 
Who the fuck mentioned OAPs?  It's the old-guard, the rich folk, the monied peeps who earned their cash through the media and other fields, not pensioners.  Note the '...' that I used.  

And dude, i grew up on two council estates, Ely and Pentrebane.  That's one in the eye for your assumptions (whatever the fuck point you were trying to make in the first place).

Aye.


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## Brockway (Nov 11, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> Who the fuck mentioned OAPs?  It's the old-guard, the rich folk, the monied peeps who earned their cash through the media and other fields, not pensioners.  Note the '...' that I used.
> 
> And dude, i grew up on two council estates, Ely and Pentrebane.  That's one in the eye for your assumptions (whatever the fuck point you were trying to make in the first place).
> 
> Aye.





And these language Nazis that you mentioned are? Can you name them? Give me ten names.

Oh, and congratulations on coming from a council estate. That's you, me, and half of Cardiff. You will be aware, then, that there is as much racism in Ely as there is in Pontcanna. Possibly more, it being a larger area. That's the point I was trying to make, if it helps.


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## Karac (Nov 11, 2010)

Hmmm-i think flagwaver and silurian are the same multiposting BNP/UKIP moron who infests the ICWALES messageboard/Betsans blog ad nauseam.
An extremely sad character with a lot of time on his hands and an unbalanced hatred of the Welsh language.


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## Gavin Bl (Nov 11, 2010)

Saying that you had one programme turned down because it involved non-white welsh speakers, doesn't prove any wider cultural dread of non-white welsh speakers (even assuming that was the reason the show was turned down)

You could just as easily argue the complete opposite and say, look at people like Nigel Walker, Roz Richards or Colin Charvis as welsh speakers, or learners - often in quite high profile campaigns. Or you could ask yourself why did S4C cover the Mela down in the bay? If its so full of people who want to keep ethnic minorities away from the language, why would that happen.


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## badlands (Nov 12, 2010)

Gavin Bl said:


> Saying that you had one programme turned down because it involved non-white welsh speakers, doesn't prove any wider cultural dread of non-white welsh speakers (even assuming that was the reason the show was turned down)
> 
> You could just as easily argue the complete opposite and say, look at people like Nigel Walker, Roz Richards or Colin Charvis as welsh speakers, or learners - often in quite high profile campaigns. Or you could ask yourself why did S4C cover the Mela down in the bay? If its so full of people who want to keep ethnic minorities away from the language, why would that happen.



I was talking about the drama department a few years a go.

The programme we worked on broke the ground for the 'foster parent drama' that came after (which I've never seen)

All I'm saying is that they wanted a 'type' of drama. They wanted a multi-cultural drama. One set in Cardiff. But in the end it was their idea of Cardiff they wanted to portray.

Not ours.


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## 1927 (Nov 12, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Ooooooooooooooooooooooooh. Are you the hardest man in Penarth?


 
QED.

Whats Penarth got to do with anything anyway?


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## Brockway (Nov 12, 2010)

Hi 1927. Everything OK? Smashing. 

If I were to draw up a Cardiff and its environs league table of snootiness I would put Penarth, Cowbridge, Rhiwbina, Lakeside, Lisvane, Radyr, Llandaff and Cyncoed above Pontcanna. Some people on this thread just really hate Welsh-speakers, which I find a bit disturbing.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 12, 2010)

Brockway said:


> And these language Nazis that you mentioned are? Can you name them? Give me ten names.
> 
> Oh, and congratulations on coming from a council estate. That's you, me, and half of Cardiff. You will be aware, then, that there is as much racism in Ely as there is in Pontcanna. Possibly more, it being a larger area. That's the point I was trying to make, if it helps.



My ex-missus was a language nazi.  If someone spoke inferior Welsh she'd look on them as subhuman.  If she was then say with 9 of her mates and someone else spoke 'poor' Cymraeg, those 10 folk (see where I'm going with this?) would rip them to pieces behind their backs.  Snobbery exists in the Welsh language from east to west (of course, it's well known the west speaks far superior Welsh...appararently) and then there's the north/south divide.  Then you get those who live in mid-Wales who speak it even better (according to them).  I can furnish you with ten names if you want them, but I might as well make them up for the use it'll be to you.

And why act so patronising about me living on council estates?  You said I'd probably never never lived on one, yet I gave you two I lived on (where my family still are for that matter) and then you turn it round on me.  Dude, you're like a woman with a vendetta.  I answered you and the only response you could throw up was a patronising one to mask the fact I met your point with a big WIN.  

Furthermore, what racism per se has to do with what we're talking about, i have no idea.  You seem to have made up a side-subject and thrown it into the mix.

I want to speak Welsh, wish I had the TIME to learn it, and also have a deep interest in it full stop.  I just don't like the clique that has formed, an elite if you will, within the language due to the media and led by S4C.  I'm glad the Beeb is getting hold of it and hopefully there'll be a cull there, getting rid of the dross.

I'm still puzzling over your racism bit, but it's clear you're a wind-up merchant rather than a poster with a point.


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## Brockway (Nov 12, 2010)

So you can’t actually name any language Nazis. That anecdotal, ahem, ‘evidence’ btw is laughable. Piss poor, in fact.

Your notion that Welsh-speakers are elitist snobs is just ridiculous. They are no more elitist than folk from anywhere else. As for your inference that people who are from “inner-city Cardiff” are somehow less prone to snobbery or racism is daft. That’s a patronising, dewy-eyed, romanticised view of people who live in urban areas. I live on a council estate and know that it is bollox.

Um, you introduced race into this debate not me you silly sausage. Here’s you doing precisely that: “But then I'm not a language-*nazi* with anti-Cardiff sentiments. I suppose that for the usual *white-centric 'old Welsh' folk*, the idea that there might be a ground-swell of support for Cymraeg in inner-city Cardiff must be scary as fuck.”

Hope that’s plain enough for you.


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## Silurian (Nov 12, 2010)

Karac said:


> Hmmm-i think flagwaver and silurian are the same multiposting BNP/UKIP moron who infests the ICWALES messageboard/Betsans blog ad nauseam.
> An extremely sad character with a lot of time on his hands and an unbalanced hatred of the Welsh language.


 
'*An extremely sad character with a lot of time on his hands*'? how ironic of you to say that. 

Had to think back then to some deluded prat earlier this years, labouring on and on at me with the exact same nonsensical disconnect. Vague recollections of having to help you out led me to look back through my posts, and I found you: 5th of June this year on the 'Anti-Nazi Rally' thread (post #108) and coming up with the exact same deluded dross. 

Who knows, perhaps some day your archenemy from ICWales and 'Betsans blog' (whatever that is) may well pursue you  here to U75; but for now please enjoy this appalled facepalm...  

Sorry, fella.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 12, 2010)

Brockway said:


> So you can’t actually name any language Nazis. That anecdotal, ahem, ‘evidence’ btw is laughable. Piss poor, in fact.
> 
> Your notion that Welsh-speakers are elitist snobs is just ridiculous. They are no more elitist than folk from anywhere else. As for your inference that people who are from “inner-city Cardiff” are somehow less prone to snobbery or racism is daft. That’s a patronising, dewy-eyed, romanticised view of people who live in urban areas. I live on a council estate and know that it is bollox.
> 
> ...


 
Language-nazi hardly constitutes racist.  It's a tongue-in-cheek expression.  Like rules-nazis or parking-nazis.  It's a way of highlighting an overbearing attitude towards something.

I have never once said that people from inner-city areas are racist, not racist, less racist or anything compared to anyone else.  Read the post again.

White-centric 'old Welsh' is just a way of explaining that most Welsh-speakers are white.  When Aled Brew speaks Welsh on S4C, it makes people pay attention.  I saw a programme Welsh TV last year (or possibly in the last few years - my memory is poor) about a black woman in rural Wales who spoke Welsh and the locals were scared as fuck.  Really opened their eyes.  So I have at least some basis for calling the Welsh language white-centric.  

And I told you I can indeed name ten folk, but the point remains that you wouldn't know them so the exercise would be pretty much pissing in the wind.

You must have magic eyes...


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## badlands (Nov 12, 2010)

cracking spat,

Infidel, I think we should invite everyone somewhere for an open debate.

I suggest The Neville as a venue,

over a Pimms.


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## Brockway (Nov 12, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> Language-nazi hardly constitutes racist.  It's a tongue-in-cheek expression.  Like rules-nazis or parking-nazis.  It's a way of highlighting an overbearing attitude towards something.
> 
> I have never once said that people from inner-city areas are racist, not racist, less racist or anything compared to anyone else.  Read the post again.
> 
> ...


 
... Yes, they are nice. Thanks for asking. 

You're wriggling like a wriggly thing there. If you wanted to say that Welsh-speakers are overbearing you could have just typed the word: overbearing. Instead you chose the word, Nazi, with all of its horrific connotations of fascism and racism. You then immediately followed it up by banging on about them being white, presumably to reinforce the point. Can't believe that you're still denying that you (not me) introduced the subject of race into this debate when it's there for all to see. And your above justification only confirms it. 

I'm not sure what your inference is, in saying that most people who speak Welsh are white. Most people who speak English in England are white. Most people who speak Finnish in Finland are white. The Welsh-language is available to everybody, whatever their ethnicity. It's up to folk, black or white, whether they want to continue studying it in school or not. Or are you suggesting that there is a sinister plot to stop black people from learning Welsh in our schools?

So, come on then Infidel - name and shame these evil Welsh-language Nazis. Not those fantasy girls that you made up - what about those "old" gits that you initially mentioned, who are they then? Have they got two Christian names with ap in the middle? I bet they go to Eisteddfodau, don't they? Do they live in posh houses in Pontcanna or just inside your head?


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## 1927 (Nov 13, 2010)

Brockway said:


> Hi 1927. Everything OK? Smashing.
> 
> If I were to draw up a Cardiff and its environs league table of snootiness I would put Penarth, Cowbridge, Rhiwbina, Lakeside, Lisvane, Radyr, Llandaff and Cyncoed above Pontcanna. Some people on this thread just really hate Welsh-speakers, which I find a bit disturbing.


 
And? I'm not from any of those places! And if you are a prime example its hardly surprising that folk hate welsh speakers.


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## Brockway (Nov 13, 2010)

Hi 1927. How's things? Good. 

Sorry if I've confused you with some other fella on here who is from Penarth. It's a shame that you hate me but, hey, I'll try and get over it. And I'm not a Welsh-speaker. All the best.


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## teqniq (Nov 13, 2010)

badlands said:


> I suggest The Neville as a venue,
> 
> over a Pimms.


Lol


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## Karac (Nov 13, 2010)

Silurian said:


> '*An extremely sad character with a lot of time on his hands*'? how ironic of you to say that.
> 
> Had to think back then to some deluded prat earlier this years, labouring on and on at me with the exact same nonsensical disconnect. Vague recollections of having to help you out led me to look back through my posts, and I found you: 5th of June this year on the 'Anti-Nazi Rally' thread (post #108) and coming up with the exact same deluded dross.
> 
> ...


 
Your the same troll UKIP/BNP or English Democrats who knows


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## Silurian (Nov 13, 2010)

Karac said:


> Your the same troll UKIP/BNP or English Democrats who knows



I hope you're senile, but either way I cannot help you. *shrug*


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## la ressistance (Nov 13, 2010)

i  slagged off the welsh language on here before and got called a racist. is it possible to be racist to speakers? i dunno. roll bloody eyes.


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## Silurian (Nov 14, 2010)

la ressistance said:


> i  slagged off the welsh language on here before and got called a racist. is it possible to be racist to speakers? i dunno. roll bloody eyes.


 
Interesting indeed. 

But I got labelled racist for criticising S4C as being too confined to a narrow social and cultural base, and for not spreading its reach to cater for the Welsh majority. 

I'd be interested to hear why you were 'slagging off' the Welsh language. Too many consonants? or did you mean the Welsh Language Industry and its touch-sensitive defenders? If the latter, then you're on good ground.

As is highly visible whenever this topic is raised, people tend to congregate around two unfortunate and opposing camps. My own tendency, as a monoglot English-speaker, is to diagnose problems in the way Welsh speaking Wales views itself and impacts upon the Welsh majority. And from the other side, as seen in this thread, those seeking to defend Welsh speaking Wales and its institutions are apt to see racist conspiracies and British nationalist smear-tactics, wherever someone dares to question the status quo. 

Some of the petty bickering in this thread alone would be a delight to anyone from the British authorities looking-on, and wanting to instill some old-fashioned Divide & Conquer. Which is what I suspect we are really dealing with here, since the difference which exist amongst those within or without the Welsh language are inflated disproportionately, and never to the benefit of Welsh people.

Its sad that many Welsh-speakers seek to follow RS Thomas' ethos in seeing 'true Welsh identity' as residing purely within the language, since 'One has to draw the line somewhere'. Considering the tiny population of Wales as a whole, attemps to sustain a sense of nationhood would be difficult enough already, without shrinking things back to a tiny rump of cornered communities in Y Fro Cymraeg and the better-off Cardiff suburbs. Plus the version of Welshness and the rather narrow backfooted attitudes rooted in such rural Welsh communities only sell Wales short - something written all over S4C's attitude and ouput, sadly.

We need to find a means to get beyond the phoney divide that has been cultivated by London, and helped no end by the upholders of professional Welshness. S4C could well be the means to achieve a huge chunk of that, not least by expanding its output and constituency to encompass the Welsh majority for the very first time. As for funding that, we need to get some fresh thinking on such matters. 

How about a subscription service, or perhaps large parts of the work involved in making S4C work could be given over to volunteer contributors. I am sure there is a vast reservoir of un-tapped talent in Wales, especially amongst all those former Media Studies students working in mundane jobs. Maybe they could all do their bit for the national channel as a kind of un-official National Service?


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## ernestolynch (Nov 14, 2010)

_Gymraeg_, Y Fro _Gymraeg_.


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## la ressistance (Nov 14, 2010)

Silurian said:


> I'd be interested to hear why you were 'slagging off' the Welsh language.



because it sounds horrible.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 15, 2010)

Brockway said:


> ... Yes, they are nice. Thanks for asking.
> 
> You're wriggling like a wriggly thing there. If you wanted to say that Welsh-speakers are overbearing you could have just typed the word: overbearing. Instead you chose the word, Nazi, with all of its horrific connotations of fascism and racism. You then immediately followed it up by banging on about them being white, presumably to reinforce the point. Can't believe that you're still denying that you (not me) introduced the subject of race into this debate when it's there for all to see. And your above justification only confirms it.
> 
> ...


 
You know what?  I'm going to stop here.  My mam told me never to mess with trolls.  I'll end on a couple of small points though:

The Welsh and English languages cannot be compared in the way you have in your post (one is a fringe language, the other the predominant language of business of most of the globe).

You write lots of words but choose to ignore in other's posts subtleties in language, idioms and other references.  You do this wilfully, judging by your attempts to 'trap' me.  That makes you a troll, of course.

I don't need to tell you any names of folk that I know as - once again - it's a futile exercise as you won't know them.  If you want some names though (and just to keep in the spirit of your evasive and purposeful play-dumb tack), here are a few:  Lewis Brewis, Hugh Pugh, Evan Bevan, Nerys, Cerys, Carys, Larynx, Spatula, Lleucu and Rhisiart.  That'll do.  You've got your names.





Some smiley faces there for you mate, just to add an element of mystique to my post (because it REALLY works for you).

Ta-ra fer now mate.  Reply if you want, but there will be no follow up from me.  I've probably gone outside of my mother's advice by even engaging this time, but I'm sure she'll understand this once.  As long as I don't do it again she'll let me off.  She's good like that see.


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## Infidel Castro (Nov 15, 2010)

badlands said:


> cracking spat,
> 
> Infidel, I think we should invite everyone somewhere for an open debate.
> 
> ...



I get the feeling that Brockers ain't the sort to do real-life situations mate!

But a pint down the local before Christmas would certainly do the trick.  For sure.  We can stand around then spitting feathers at the Welsh-influenced decor .


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## Brockway (Nov 16, 2010)

Infidel Castro said:


> You do this wilfully, judging by your attempts to 'trap' me.



Do you suffer from paranoia? Somewhere else you mentioned a "vendetta". Honestly, just because someone happens to disagree with you on some issue on an internet messageboard doesn't make them a troll. Don't take it so seriously. 

Cheers

Brockers


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## davesgcr (Nov 21, 2010)

£105M per annum subsidy ? (how much per genuine viewer) 

The language , thank God , is safe now - but is this  VFM ? Plan , do , moniter , review .....

(PS I come from a very Welsh speaking area of West Wales ,and I dont think "shak - S4C" really hit it off with my very "Local" community .


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## William of Walworth (Nov 23, 2010)

kyser_soze said:
			
		

> Having it folded into the BBC would probably do more to safeguard it than expecting C4 - a commercial organisation - to keep funding it.






			
				William of Walworth said:
			
		

> From my limited knowledge, this seems at least a half way reasonable point in terms of sheer realism about finances?
> 
> I'd be interested to see responses to that point specifically from lewislewis and others mind.



I know this exchange was ages ago but I'd be really interested to see some response from S4C-knowledgeable types to that one, because it did seem to make some sort of pragmatic sense in financial terms at least?


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## lewislewis (Nov 26, 2010)

davesgcr said:


> £105M per annum subsidy ? (how much per genuine viewer)
> 
> The language , thank God , is safe now - but is this  VFM ? Plan , do , moniter , review .....
> 
> (PS I come from a very Welsh speaking area of West Wales ,and I dont think "shak - S4C" really hit it off with my very "Local" community .


 
I wouldn't use the word 'subsidy', it's more of an investment of state money that mostly gets distributed to independent production companies and creative enterprises. It is a public service broadcaster as well.

With that said, there clearly need to be changes at S4C.


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