# Class and Taste



## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2012)

New series with Grayson Perry starts next week on Channel 4. Looks interesting. Episode 1 is looking at the working classes in Sunderland. 

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/...rayson-perry/episode-guide/series-1/episode-1


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## butchersapron (May 30, 2012)

I bet this is proper thorough.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I bet this is proper thorough.


 
I thought of you when I saw this being advertised. I thought, this sounds right up butch's alley.


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## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

It better not be fucking patronising.


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## silverfish (May 30, 2012)

He'll be huffing bags of glue, stealing cars and filling in second rate students within the week


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## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

'Perry' lol. Is he Bourgeois? I know who he is but not much about him. Upper Middle class?


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## Edie (May 30, 2012)




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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> 'Perry' lol. Is he Bourgeois?


 
No, that's Louise you're thinking of.


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## Citizen66 (May 30, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> No, that's Louise you're thinking of.


 
Is that his alter Ego. Just realised his first name is 'Grayson' not Perry. Lower upper class?


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## killer b (May 30, 2012)

He's from Chelmsford, so probably not.


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## goldenecitrone (May 30, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Is that his alter Ego. Just realised his first name is 'Grayson' not Perry. Lower upper class?


 
Nope. His alter ego is Claire.


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## Edie (May 30, 2012)

This is WELL confusing


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## Greebo (May 30, 2012)

Edie said:


>


OMG I want to try making that with bronze wire!


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## Greebo (May 30, 2012)

Greebo said:


> OMG I want to try making that with bronze wire!


Edited for clarity:  Just to see if it could be made from a continuous piece of wire without soldering or brazing.  Not because I could see myself wearing it.


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## sim667 (May 31, 2012)

This will be patronising as fuck.


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## fractionMan (May 31, 2012)

Chanel 4 can Fuck the Fuck off.


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## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

fractionMan said:


> Chanel 4 can Fuck the Fuck off.


Chanel 5 can also fuck the fuck off, for being expensive and not smelling right on my skin.


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## Reno (May 31, 2012)

So much for keeping an open mind. Grayson Perry never struck me as in the least bit patronising, btw.


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## High Voltage (May 31, 2012)

Greebo said:


> OMG I want to try making that with bronze wire!


 
It goes wrong where the L joins the o

the o v e however is do'able


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## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> It goes wrong where the L joins the o
> 
> the o v e however is do'able


Not if I use a lower case l instead, or have tiny loops bent back on the first and last letters to join onto the finger loops.  Can you tell I've had all night to think about this?


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## High Voltage (May 31, 2012)

Hmmm!! not sure, to get either an L or an l to join up with an o is going to take some seriously tiny loops bent back on themselves at some very un-natural angles

There's very little difference between a cap L and a lower case l in how they finish up - you've got to get from there to the top of the lower case o

Can you tell that my job is drawing letters - amongst other things


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## QueenOfGoths (May 31, 2012)

This looks great. Grayson Perry's recent exhibition at the British Museum was fantastic, one of the best things I have seen for a very long time.

Plus he spoke, within the exhibition, very well about art, the nature of art, reactions to art etc..


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## killer b (May 31, 2012)

i like grayson perry and his art, but the format looks proper cringe. still, he may pull it off.


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## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> Hmmm!! not sure, to get either an L or an l to join up with an o is going to take some seriously tiny loops bent back on themselves at some very un-natural angles
> 
> There's very little difference between a cap L and a lower case l in how they finish up - you've got to get from there to the top of the lower case o
> 
> Can you tell that my job is drawing letters - amongst other things


Join up the l and the o at you would a t and an o. Then do a looped o instead of the garlanded one on that ring. Job done.


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## High Voltage (May 31, 2012)

Greebo said:


> . . . Then do a looped o instead of the garlanded one on that ring. Job done.


 
WELL 

"IF" you're going to change it like that, why not just get a bit of wire and just screw it up and stick it on your finger instead - that would be even EASIER 




So why not still do the Cap L and use a looped o - you might just have to put a bit more "swish" on the L but it'd be a lot "classier"

Would you be able to do a "Hate" one for the other hand??


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## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> <snip>Would you be able to do a "Hate" one for the other hand??


Let's not get ahead of ourselves here, my works in progress have enough of a tendancy to run out of steam as it is.


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## High Voltage (May 31, 2012)

Love and Hate WOULD BE CLASS though


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## krink (May 31, 2012)

I'm looking forward to this as I think it will be a fair, balanced and accurate portrayal of my town.


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## Greebo (May 31, 2012)

High Voltage said:


> Love and Hate WOULD BE CLASS though


Damn!  Now I'll need to complete the set with a linked word bracelet "no-war-but-the-class-war"...


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## Ceej (Jun 1, 2012)

I can just hear my late dad - 'Taste and Class? You can't buy either of them....'


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## silverfish (Jun 7, 2012)

Just watched this, I think he pulled it off, it certainly wasn't patronising reality wank.

I will be watching further. Genuinely enjoyed the insights.

its a wee bit louis theroux (not seen any of his stuff but just read a book about revisiting USA oddballs)

whats this style of "Presenting" called?


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

*you* think he did?


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## krtek a houby (Jun 7, 2012)

I'd quite like to see this, I'm fascinated by the obsession with "class", as a member of the upper side down class I feel I could learn quite a bit.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

I turned it off 'i'm from a working class background". Like something from the 1830s- if it didn't have a middle class fav it would not have got made. How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human.


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## sojourner (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I turned it off 'i'm from a working class background". Like something from the 1830s- if it didn't have a middle class fav it would not have got made. How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human.


Can't understand this post - your syntax goes to shit towards the end.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 7, 2012)

sojourner said:


> Can't understand this post - your syntax goes to shit towards the end.


 
I think he's basing his review on what happened after he turned it off.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

sojourner said:


> Can't understand this post - your syntax goes to shit towards the end.


It does not


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

krtek a houby said:


> I think he's basing his review on what happened after he turned it off.


I missed the big reveal did i? It got much better as i turned it off.


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## sojourner (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It does not


Did you edit fast?


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Nope. ( i would do a wink, but i didn't change anything)


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## sojourner (Jun 7, 2012)

Pretty fucking sure it didn't read quite like that when I quoted you, especially this bit... _How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human._


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## Vintage Paw (Jun 7, 2012)

This is relevant to this thread, maybe:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Distinction

I shall have to try to watch this.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I turned it off 'i'm from a working class background". Like something from the 1830s- if it didn't have a middle class fav it would not have got made. How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human.


 
You're right, it wouldn't have been made without Grayson Perry, mainly because the main premise of the programme is how he finds inspiration for his work.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

sojourner said:


> Pretty fucking sure it didn't read quite like that when I quoted you, especially this bit... _How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human._


Nope.


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## kittyP (Jun 7, 2012)

Greebo said:
			
		

> Edited for clarity:  Just to see if it could be made from a continuous piece of wire without soldering or brazing.  Not because I could see myself wearing it.



It would be pretty cool to have love and hate on each hand. 
Old cool style


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> You're right, it wouldn't have been made without Grayson Perry, mainly because the main premise of the programme is how he finds inspiration for his work.


 
No it's not, Did you watch it?


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## sojourner (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Nope.


Well then I apologise - my eyes must be shot to shit


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

sojourner said:


> Well then I apologise - my eyes must be shot to shit


Or did i?


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## sojourner (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Or did i?


You fucker


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## krtek a houby (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I missed the big reveal did i? It got much better as i turned it off.


 
Have you put Grayson Perry on ignore?


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I turned it off 'i'm from a working class background". Like something from the 1830s- if it didn't have a middle class fav it would not have got made. How's that perry? Before you start, no he wasn't. Look w/c people are human.


Was it boring? I guessed it would have bordieu.


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

Thought this was weird. Watched it with the other half and it was like it was 'explaining the working class to the middle class' with a vague sense of him reassuring himself that the bits of his taste that he's always been embarrassed about are actually ok cos they are working class and not just tacky. At one point at the end he was saying that working class taste should be protected like tribal culture from the Amazon or somesuch


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Santino said:


> Was it boring? I guessed it would have bordieu.


Poppy for this boy. I now thieve.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Edie said:


> Thought this was weird. Watched it with the other half and it was like it was 'explaining the working class to the middle class' with a vague sense of him reassuring himself that the bits of his taste that he's always been embarrassed about are actually ok cos they are working class and not just tacky. At one point at the end he was saying that working class taste should be protected like tribal culture from the Amazon or somesuch


Did it explain how tacky is produced?


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Poppy for this boy. I now thieve.


I've been waiting a week to post it.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Santino said:


> I've been waiting a week to post it.


Like trifle.


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

I never post trifle. It makes the most tremendous mess landing on someone's doorstep.


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

Now waiting for someone to set me up for a Gilles Deleuze pun.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2012)

Breaking news: some working class people find the middle classes with their range rovers, wellies, wax jackets and Gymkhanas a little bit odd too.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Santino said:


> Now waiting for someone to set me up for a Gilles Deleuze pun.


These thick beetroot cunts. Will this do?


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## frogwoman (Jun 7, 2012)

Edie said:


> Thought this was weird. Watched it with the other half and it was like it was 'explaining the working class to the middle class' with a vague sense of him reassuring himself that the bits of his taste that he's always been embarrassed about are actually ok cos they are working class and not just tacky. At one point at the end he was saying that working class taste should be protected like tribal culture from the Amazon or somesuch


 
that sounds utterly cringeworthy


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> Breaking news: some working class people find the middle classes with their range rovers, wellies, wax jackets and Gymkhanas a little bit odd too.


Then they're idiots if they think that's what marks out the middle classes.


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## Santino (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> These thick beetroot cunts. Will this do?


It's been built up too much now.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 7, 2012)

Santino said:


> Then they're idiots if they think that's what marks out the middle classes.



So the same as this program then.


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Did it explain how tacky is produced?


Don't understand the question as usual  But nah it was just kinda going 'look the china ornaments your Nan used to have are tacky cos they're not art but it's ok to like them cos they signify a full life'. I think  Although that point was slightly lost on me and kinda merged with a point about degree photos and social mobility.

The explanation for why girls like to get properly dressed up was about escaping reality, becoming someone different for a night so far as I could tell. But... it kind of somehow missed the point that women dress up just cos they look BETTER dressed up, and that's... just enough of a reason if you are on the pull or out having fun? He was proper lol himself, dressed up as a cross dresser but epicly badly, like a parody of a woman.

Thinking on the entire programme was a bit confusing. What point it was making. Very sentimental and patronising.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> No it's not, Did you watch it?


 
Most of it. Turned it off towards the end and got stuck into Martin Amis's latest offering.


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

I think what it was that was weird was it was nostalgic. But then it was set in Sunderland where there is reason for nostalgia.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

Edie said:


> I think what it was that was weird was it was nostalgic. But then it was set in Sunderland where there is reason for nostalgia.


What class was. Ok.


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## FabricLiveBaby! (Jun 7, 2012)

Edie said:


> Thought this was weird. Watched it with the other half and it was like it was 'explaining the working class to the middle class' with a vague sense of him reassuring himself that the bits of his taste that he's always been embarrassed about are actually ok cos they are working class and not just tacky. At one point at the end he was saying that working class taste should be protected like tribal culture from the Amazon or somesuch


 

Yeah,  this rings true.  But then you're not going to start explaining the working class to the working class, cos that would be pointless.  I still enjoyed it for what it was.  He seemed to me like a bloke that was at war with himself.  I guess that would happen if you've been in the art-world for so long - people in it can be right pretentious knobs who'll disregard you for the smallest of reasons.

I'm quite looking forward to the middle class one.


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## krtek a houby (Jun 7, 2012)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> I'm quite looking forward to the middle class one.


 
Part one; the middle classes - part two; the upper middles?


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## Thora (Jun 7, 2012)

I didn't really understand the point he was trying to make.  I didn't think it was particularly patronising, more superficial.  I suspect you could just watch an episode of TOWIE followed by an episode of Made in Chelsea and learn just as much about class/culture.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

FabricLiveBaby! said:


> Yeah, this rings true. But then you're not going to start explaining the working class to the working class, cos that would be pointless. I still enjoyed it for what it was. He seemed to me like a bloke that was at war with himself. I guess that would happen if you've been in the art-world for so long - people in it can be right pretentious knobs who'll disregard you for the smallest of reasons.
> 
> I'm quite looking forward to the middle class one.


how?


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

Thora said:


> I didn't really understand the point he was trying to make.  I didn't think it was particularly patronising, more superficial.  I suspect you could just watch an episode of TOWIE followed by an episode of Made in Chelsea and learn just as much about class/culture.


Yer I didn't get the point either but maybe there wasn't one  I didn't understand why he set it there and not Essex where he was from I think.


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## butchersapron (Jun 7, 2012)

i do


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## Raminta (Jun 7, 2012)

Something definitely got wrong with working class.  There are some confusions if we don't go to gym blowing our muscles or don't listening some kind of pop crap music, or don't dress like celebrities we are scum.


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## Thora (Jun 7, 2012)

Edie said:


> Yer I didn't get the point either but maybe there wasn't one  I didn't understand why he set it there and not Essex where he was from I think.


Because then he could say WC men like cage fighting and football because they aren't working in mines anymore.  Where there many mines in Essex?


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 7, 2012)

Don't we all. His show opened today.

http://www.victoria-miro.com/exhibitions/_429/


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

The tapestries were amazing!


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## Riklet (Jun 7, 2012)

Santino said:


> Was it boring? I guessed it would have bordieu.


 
Worth the week wait...  

Will have to wait until this gets the youtube/torrent site treatment to give it a watch, but this thread isn't completely selling it really!


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## Edie (Jun 7, 2012)

Thora said:


> Because then he could say WC men like cage fighting and football because they aren't working in mines anymore. Where there many mines in Essex?


Shipbuilding and mining tbf, so you are saying he chose Sunderland cos it's stereotypically working class but Essex isn't. I guess so. Maybe also cos Essex has been done to death with TOWIE.


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## silverfish (Jun 7, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> *you* think he did?


 
well I didn't turn it off, do you have another point?


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## binka (Jun 7, 2012)

Thora said:


> I didn't really understand the point he was trying to make. I didn't think it was particularly patronising, more superficial. I suspect you could just watch an episode of TOWIE followed by an episode of Made in Chelsea and learn just as much about class/culture.


ive seen towie and i dont remember anyone in it being working class. iirc they all seem to own their own businesses or have rich parents who they work for / get money off. in fact exactly the same as made in chelsea.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2012)

silverfish said:


> well I didn't turn it off, do you have another point?


 
I'm only fifteen minutes in and have quite a bit to say on it already tbh.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2012)

*Men*

Grayson introduces the episode by focusing on a group of muscle-flexing young men communally masturbating over a Subaru. So far so very typical of the w/c. He's intersted to learn whether the owners think they have made a sound 'investment' with the purchase? He comments on how showy this particular pastime appears to be. Are cars like these merely a dick extension? Are Aston Martins? Will be interesting to see if that connection is made in later episodes. He draws the conclusion that this behaviour is a 'primitive' sexual display which, perhaps it is, perhaps it isn't. But not something that is w/c specific in my view.

He moves onto the w/c's interest in art. Or, rather, body art. Attention is drawn again to the price of such work with the obvious inference of thread-bare carpets at home and kids left below the bread line in order to carry out such an endevour. He has automatically assumed the type-cast of person who has tattoos, how much they earn and what their financial priorities must be. Perhaps for the sake of the audience.

The editing cuts smoothly from body art into cage fighting, which probably reflects less than five percent of working class men. But important to include none-the-less. Everything so far so caveman.

Which leads perfectly into that other working class-specific pastime: football. Or, rather, supporting it.
Sticking with his neanderthal theme one didn't have to wait long for the anticipated buzzword: Tribal. He makes the connection that the beautiful game replaces the pride and comradeship of the mines and ship yards of yesteryear. Like football supporting in Sunderland doesn't pre-date the closures.

He finishes his view on w/c men in a working men's club where he finally plumbs the depths. With depressing piano in the background and a dog-eared flag held on with tie wraps fluttering in the steel breeze against a grey sky (14:14) He finally attacks the w/c's detractors. It brought to mind an accusation he "kept 'hearing' about working class taste: was a lot of it just wallowing in that fuzzy feeling for something that wasn't that great in the first place?" He then focusses on people crying at a working club singer and refutes the 'many people who say it's sentimental slush' with "Do you cry a more vintage kind of tears at Glyndeborne" Which gives the unlikely idea that that these 'mystery' people sneering at the w/c frequent Glyndeborne and have also frequented many a working men's club in order to offer their critique on them. Perhaps it was just his mates as he showed them the rushes pre-edit?

Oh yes, he's creating tapestries, he reminds us. Based on these selective stereotypes.

*Women*

He admits he has a preconception of working class girls being 'Big hair, big heels, short skirts and fake tan'. Hopefully they won't let him down.

Unfortunately he immediately concentrates his efforts on Boutique proprietors: the petit bourgeois. Perhaps it's living in Sunderland itself that makes you working class, as opposed to your relationship with capital and the means of production?

So it's on with the fake tan, but not a w/c female in sight. Interesting. He then moves onto a 'celebrity hair dresser' to ask his views on why he thought working class women spent (thread-bare carpets, starving kids!) so much on looking the way they do. He can't be a very good celebrity hair dresser if working class women can afford him. Hopefully we'll soon get round to their views.

The 'celebrity hairdresser' then explains some comic book style image that all 'northern' (not working class now, it's regional) women adhere to to make their own, and Grayson says his keyword again: 'Tribal'.

The 'celebrity hairdresser' adds that the poor wee lassies are 'missing out' because they can't live up to their Friday night alter-ego every day of the week. Presumably because they can't afford his prices. Grayson agrees whilst getting his own hair lacquered and we're yet to actually speak to a working class woman. 'Celebrity hair dresser' concludes that working class girls escape the hum-drum of the factories by becoming 'beautiful' on a weekend. Inference: They're not beautiful through the week.

Finally, at last, we move onto a w/c household getting ready for a night out. It's a 'bonding ritual' (Tribal, neanderthal) before the alcopops. Unlike the men's cock extensions, this display was for the ladies only and not to impress car-loving cage-fighting men! Grayson concludes: where Middle class women put a lot of effort into looking like they haven't made an effort, working class girls put a lot of effort into creating the dream version of themselves. In layman's terms: too much make-up.

I'll comment on the rest of the episode if I find time to watch it.


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## discokermit (Jun 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> men communally masturbating over a Subaru.


they am pretty quick.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> He then focusses on people crying at a working club singer and refutes the 'many people who say it's sentimental slush' with "Do you cry a more vintage kind of tears at Grimeborn?" Which gives the unlikely idea that that these 'mystery' people sneering at the w/c frequent Grimeborn and have also frequented many a working men's club in order to offer their critique on them. Perhaps it was just his mates as he showed them the rushes pre-edit?


 
I wonder why you heard it as Grimeborn?

http://glyndebourne.com/


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## Thora (Jun 8, 2012)

binka said:


> ive seen towie and i dont remember anyone in it being working class. iirc they all seem to own their own businesses or have rich parents who they work for / get money off. in fact exactly the same as made in chelsea.


I don't know, I've not actually watched TOWIE - maybe it's just the TOWIE "look" then, big hair, fake tans etc.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> I wonder why you heard it as Grimeborn?
> 
> http://glyndebourne.com/


 


> *Grimeborn* is an annual musical theatre and opera festival which coincides with the world famous Glyndebourne Opera Festival.


 
It's a pisstake.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 8, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> It's a pisstake.


 
Right. Not very clear from your review.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 8, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Right. Not very clear from your review.


 
I thought the opening line introduced the idea that I would be using some hyperbole in places.



> Grayson introduces the episode by focusing on a group of muscle-flexing young men communally masturbating over a Subaru.


 
I've changed it to prevent confusion. Cheers.


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## Edie (Jun 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> i do


I want to know what you think


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## butchersapron (Jun 10, 2012)

It was set in sunderland because to a commissioning editor or production company owner from a certain type of background to be working class means to be northern and it means to speak in a different way from them, to be a different race almost - essex is not going to show that quite as much as Sunderland.


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## Edie (Jun 10, 2012)

ah, ok, cheers


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## Geri (Jun 10, 2012)

This programme sounds like a crock of shit


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## Citizen66 (Jun 10, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> It was set in sunderland because to a commissioning editor or production company owner from a certain type of background to be working class means to be northern and it means to speak in a different way from them, to be a different race almost - essex is not going to show that quite as much as Sunderland.



It was explicitly expressed in the program too so your predictive analysis is spot on. They sought out people to fit their stereotypes and asked for an explanation from patronising wankers who probably live in spitting distance from the King's road in Chelsea.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

I agree, it was all a bit dull, apart from Grayson's contribution. Maybe things will pick up in the next episode. It would help if he actually interviewed some interesting people.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> It was explicitly expressed in the program too so your predictive analysis is spot on. They sought out people to fit their stereotypes and asked for an explanation from patronising wankers who probably live in spitting distance from the King's road in Chelsea.


I've time for Grayson, i've read and heard interesting stuff from him - makes it all so much shitter. And a victory for prejudice.


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## Athos (Jun 11, 2012)

I've not seen it. Does any of the analysis focus on people's standing in relation to the means of production? Or is it all what ornaments and tattoos you have?


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## Captain Hurrah (Jun 11, 2012)

Not sure if any cleaners were interviewed.  That might be in the middle class episode.


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## magneze (Jun 11, 2012)

It was a bit of a strange programme. Grayson Perry is engaging and interesting, but the need to "make art" out of the experience jarred somewhat. It also seemed a bit superficial in its analysis - cars, tats, spray tan & skirts. Watchable though.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2012)

Athos said:


> I've not seen it. Does any of the analysis focus on people's standing in relation to the means of production? Or is it all what ornaments and tattoos you have?


 
The latter, it seems.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Not sure if any cleaners were interviewed. That might be in the middle class episode.


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## Athos (Jun 11, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:
			
		

> Not sure if any cleaners were interviewed.  That might be in the middle class episode.



Too easy. 

But it was a genuine question.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Not sure if any cleaners were interviewed. That might be in the middle class episode.


As might be the program makers. In a _self-critcal reflexive_ style. These programs always end up telling us more about the middle class and their unstated prejudices than anything else.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 11, 2012)

TBF on Grayson, I think too much is being read into his prog - hes an artist, not someone with a PhD in Dialectics - its coming across as a nostalgic traispe through the stereotypes of class.Im sure the MC one will likely not reflect contemporary MC values either.


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## Citizen66 (Jun 11, 2012)

I wonder if a nostalgic traipse through the stereotypes of race would make it beyond the cutting room floor.


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## purenarcotic (Jun 11, 2012)

Citizen66 said:


> I wonder if a nostalgic traipse through the stereotypes of race would make it beyond the cutting room floor.


 
Every TV drama about gangs probably applies to this.  Did you know all young black people shoot each other and deal drugs?  They live on a council estate too, don't you know.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 11, 2012)

GP goes for the Kitsch aspect - you can see it in his art - the programme seems to be geared towards what he picks out as interesting. As I said, I can imagine the MC one may not be entirely reconisable as commonplace MC mindset/ attitudes.

As previously hinted at, Sunderland is going to give a different result to other WC areas for obvious reasons - maybe its an extreme and yes, maybe its a stereotype too far , but I dont think the prog isnt meant as anything apart from his take on things.

ETA, When I say HIS take on things, I should really have said - what the producers may have thought WAS his take on things , combined with an easy programme to watch


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

not-bono-ever said:


> GP goes for the Kitsch aspect - you can see it in his art - the programme seems to be geared towards what he picks out as interesting. As I said, I can imagine the MC one may not be entirely reconisable as commonplace MC mindset/ attitudes.
> 
> As previously hinted at, Sunderland is going to give a different result to other WC areas for obvious reasons - maybe its an extreme and yes, maybe its a stereotype too far , but I dont think the prog isnt meant as anything apart from his take on things.
> 
> ETA, When I say HIS take on things, I should really have said - what the producers may have thought WAS his take on things , combined with an easy programme to watch


'Meant'  -who constructed what it meant? What did it mean? Who made the trailers that told us _this_ is what it meant?


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 11, 2012)

aaaargh  why do all of your posts end in a "?"


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> 'Meant' -who constructed what it meant? What did it mean? Who made the trailers that told us _this_ is what it meant?


 
Channel 4. The bastards.


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## Athos (Jun 11, 2012)

not-bono-ever said:
			
		

> aaaargh  why do all of your posts end in a "?"



Surely they should be:

Why do all of your posts end in a '?'?


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Channel 4. The bastards.


Is this some sort of response? Why do you - 10 years down the line a) never say anything b) never say anything funny - even i get some lucky ones.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

not-bono-ever said:


> aaaargh why do all of your posts end in a "?"


It's the law. Answer me.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Is this some sort of response? Why do you - 10 years down the line a) never say anything b) never say anything funny


 
b) surely follows a).


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## bluestreak (Jun 11, 2012)

Thora said:


> Because then he could say WC men like cage fighting and football because they aren't working in mines anymore. Where there many mines in Essex?


 
no, essex had docks, factories, and all that shite.

wait, there were no puns in this post.  sorry.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> b) surely follows a).


Indeed. You're caught in a loop.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 11, 2012)

you are goading me to say that the snotty smug bastards who produced the programme ensured it was delivered in a manner as to tick the boxes a la Big fat Gypsy wedddings..yes ?


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Indeed. You're caught in a loop.


 
Of your devising. Cunning.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

not-bono-ever said:


> you are goading me to say that the snotty smug bastards who produced the programme ensured it was delivered in a manner as to tick the boxes a la Big fat Gypsy wedddings..yes ?


I'm asking you why you think it got made and why it got made in this way - then on top of that why the trailer was a lie, so the same two questions again.


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## bluestreak (Jun 11, 2012)

tbh, the thing is, IME, the working classes understand the middle classes.  the middle classes don't understand the working classes.  but the middle classes are the ones with all the education and the working classes are supposed to be the simple ones.  what does that say about things.





god that was a shit point.  pretend i said something actually clever.


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## not-bono-ever (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> I'm asking you why you think it got made and why it got made in this way - then on top of that why the trailer was a lie, so the same two questions again.


 
a) ultimately, for profit - but this is a crude reduction
b) Trailers are like book covers - do you buy books 'cos you like the covers ?


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

a)It was made in a culturally specific form for profit? It could have been made other ways for profit. Why this way - or was this the only profit making option?
b) I know what they are, i'm asking why it was decided to make it this way.


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## Greebo (Jun 11, 2012)

not-bono-ever said:


> aaaargh why do all of your posts end in a "?"


A way of provoking further discussion?


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## bluestreak (Jun 11, 2012)

the socratic method.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

Just give him the hemlock.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> Just give him the hemlock.


gc doesn't like dissent. He can't articulate why.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> gc doesn't like dissent. He can't articulate why.


 
Why not?


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Because he doesn't know why. It's just...them.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Because he doesn't know why. It's just...them.


 
Who?


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## Fedayn (Jun 11, 2012)

Thought it was an interesting programme personally.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Them, the racists, the others, the _pile_._ God i hate everyone. I wonder what today will bring to my hate distributions centre said gc as he fed bits of things he had heard about on the internet into his shit machine. _


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Thought it was an interesting programme personally.


 
Care to elaborate?


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Them, the racists, the others, the _pile_._ God i hate everyone. I wonder what today will bring to my hate distributions centre said gc as he fed bits of things he had heard about on the internet into his shit machine. _


 
Are you feeling ok?


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Thought it was an interesting programme personally.


In what way fed?


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## Fedayn (Jun 11, 2012)

Because unlike alot of programmes about class, the rather twee patronising aside, there wasn't any mocking of working class culture. I found the tattoo chats interesting. Tattoos given creedence as art, real art with real history and a part in history. Those who tattooed and are tattooed not played as stereotypes, but people who like a certain type of art. The comment that C66 I think 'misses' was Perry rather sharply skewering middle-class travellers who look at cultures round the world and laud the customs of people from around the world when there's entirely legitimate, human, interesting and absolutely valid cultures on their own doorstep and that if they didn't have their own m/c prejudices they'd see it too.
I thought the bit when he dragged up was funny too. The two Mackems he spoke to it seems didn't realise he was a cross-dresser/TS,k when they found out they just carreid on the conversatio0n without a blip. All too often the media plays that kind of conversation of defence and attack and yet there was none of it. I found him quite sympathetic and as 'proud' defensive and positive about working-class lives. loves and likes as anyone i've seen on such a programme.


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## youngian (Jun 11, 2012)

Lets hope he doesn't do anymore karoke.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Because unlike alot of programmes about class, the rather twee patronising aside, there wasn't any mocking of working class culture. I found the tattoo chats interesting. Tattoos given creedence as art, real art with real history and a part in history. Those who tattooed and are tattooed not played as stereotypes, but people who like a certain type of art. The comment that C66 I think 'misses' was Perry rather sharply skewering middle-class travellers who look at cultures round the world and laud the customs of people from around the world when there's entirely legitimate, human, interesting and absolutely valid cultures on their own doorstep and that if they didn't have their own m/c prejudices they'd see it too.
> I thought the bit when he dragged up was funny too. The two Mackems he spoke to it seems didn't realise he was a cross-dresser/TS,k when they found out they just carreid on the conversatio0n without a blip. All too often the media plays that kind of conversation of defence and attack and yet there was none of it. I found him quite sympathetic and as 'proud' defensive and positive about working-class lives. loves and likes as anyone i've seen on such a programme.


But it was 'on telly' - he knows that changes things. Perry is not what i'm on about here anyway. It's prior to that. And dear old perry is part ofd that world.


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## Fedayn (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> But it was 'on telly' - he knows that changes things. Perry is no what i'm on about here anyway. It's prior to that.


 
Oh I get that he's got a lot less 'wriggle' room given the wider and far more w/c audience it's possible to reach. That doesn't make a number of the points and jibes at the middle-class any less valid though. It might develop into something intreesting, it might not.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I thought the bit when he dragged up was funny too. The two Mackems he spoke to it seems didn't realise he was a cross-dresser/TS,k when they found out they just carreid on the conversatio0n without a blip. All too often the media plays that kind of conversation of defence and attack and yet there was none of it. I found him quite sympathetic and as 'proud' defensive and positive about working-class lives. loves and likes as anyone i've seen on such a programme.


 
Could you have imagined bumping into him in Mr.Smiths, back in the day? He's certainly got balls has Mr.Perry.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Oh I get that he's got a lot less 'wriggle' room given the wider and far more w/c audience it's possible to reach. That doesn't make a number of the points and jibes at the middle-class any less valid though. It might develop into something intreesting, it might not.


Fed mate, i  din't meant that stuff had to change _because '_it was on the telly' but that it was on the telly because it told a story certain people were happy with.


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## Fedayn (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Fed mate, i din't meant that stuff had to change _because '_it was on the telly' but that it was on the telly because it told a story certain people were happy with.


 
I think it works both ways, I mentioned the twee patronising and I think that was certainly part of a narrative that played into the views and prejudices of the people you mean. However I still think it was double-edged enough to enjoy and find interesting. Perhaps it was a wee backstab at the very prejudices that were allowing him to do the programme.


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## butchersapron (Jun 11, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> I think it works both ways, I mentioned the twee patronising and I think that was certainly part of a narrative that played into the views and prejudices of the people you mean. However I still think it was double-edged enough to enjoy and find interesting. Perhaps it was a wee backstab at the very prejudices that were allowing him to do the programme.


Fair dos. One of these days i'll actually watch a program i talk about...


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 11, 2012)

butchersapron said:


> Fair dos. One of these days i'll actually watch a program i talk about...


 
Pervert's Guide to Cinema. Right up your alley.


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## goldenecitrone (Jun 13, 2012)

Well, last night's episode wasn't up to much. They managed to find a group of middle class people even duller than the working class people they dredged up last week. Poor show Grayson.


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## sojourner (Jun 13, 2012)

I liked it.  Nearly choked at the Jamie at home parties


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## QueenOfGoths (Jun 26, 2012)

Have now watched the first two programmes and enjoyed them. Agree with what fed said above about the first one. Thought the point he made up about the financial and cultural 'tribes' of the middle class interesting and I cringed at the hanging heart motid he included in one tapestry as I have one just like it 

Plus I wanted to kill the bloke with the gun and the gastro pubs!

I like Grayson Perry though and I like his art


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## fakeplasticgirl (Jun 28, 2012)

What a nice programme - I have a big crush on Grayson Perry now  I especially liked the middle class episode, teehee

he was so non-judgemental too. I, however, wouldn't have been so kind


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2012)

i watched the posh one the other week, it was fucking dreadful.

the tapestries were pretty though.


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## youngian (Jul 8, 2012)

He spent a lot of time interviewing married women about taste and stuff.
Most men regardless of their class are happy with a near empty room with just a sofa, big telly, PC,  loud sound system and a fridge for the beer.


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## Vintage Paw (Jul 8, 2012)

youngian said:


> He spent a lot of time interviewing married women about taste and stuff.
> Most men regardless of their class are happy with a near empty room with just a sofa, big telly, PC, loud sound system and a fridge for the beer.


 
That post is worth an entire programme of its own


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## youngian (Jul 8, 2012)

Vintage Paw said:


> That post is worth an entire programme of its own


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