# OPEN LETTER TO DISSENT - from an Anarchist Federation member



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 15, 2005)

*Open letter to dissent*

Dear friends,
I will not deny that my feelings towards the Dissent Network are ambivalent. On the one hand I have a lot of sympathy - despite their grave limitations -  for the people involved and its libertarian ethos (affinity groups, imaginative visions of the future, non-traditional mobilising methods...it had a great predecessor in the French March 22nd Movement in May '68...great stuff about that by Murray Bookchin in Post-Scarcity Anarchism). Also, Dissent has played an important role in keeping the post-G8 torch lingering in those smaller places where little in terms of libertarian organisations existed before. A few small, local groups which organised for G8 later even joined the Anarchist Federation.   

On the other hand, I'm very troubled with what I perceive as tendencies towards creating a self-sufficient shell where people could live more peacefully "in the movement" - but merely as "outside agitators" to the rest of the population. Does Dissent have intentions to root itself in the local communities where its members live and/or work? How? Does it intend to basically work as a minoritarian & militant ""lobby"" group, and/or does it believe it is the right and responsibility of the majority of the population to bring forward radical change in this country? If "it" (i.e. individual members & member-groups) agrees with the latter, does it believe in the concept of instilling revolutionary consciousness into people from outside, or it subscribes to the (philosophically) materialistic notion of organic conscientisation? Although these are only ideal types, I believe it is possible to strongly root oneself in either the first ("propaganda of the deed") or the second (historically materialistic) tradition, and I also believe that experience from countries with much more developed anti-capitalist struggles indicates the relative poverty of activist ghettoes and "subcultures of resistance" dedicated to largely symbolic and substitutionist direct action initiatives in comparison with more encompassing and integrated approaches to radical social change (take the late Lotta Continua in Italy as a short, flawed, but still brilliant example of the integrated approach). 

I'm not claiming there are other British organisations which have "discovered the formula", especially since more traditional groups lack in the genuine liberatory spirit, even if (or because?) they are closer to "ordinary" people. I would like to see a synthesis of both, and since I believe I'm in the minority in wanting this, and there is a general lack of political will and energy for these kinds of experiments, I hope maybe there's still some chance for working like this in East London at least.

I hope AF’s proposals (especially the last one on building a network of community based social centres) will get the serious and friendly (dare I say comradely) consideration that they deserve. Surely a dedicated libertarian organisation which has continually worked on various fields while (critically) supporting the anti-G8 initiative - although previously unaware of any official process in which federated groups were supposed to enter Dissent – isn’t going to be ostracised, not from a network which claims to be for the abolition of hierarchies and for direct democracy.  

In struggle,
Dan


----------



## rich! (Oct 15, 2005)

Hi, welcome to urban.

Everyone is supposed to have a packet of hobnobs somewhere. Until you get your own, have one of mine... (*)

By the way, if anyone asks you for a fiver, and their name has a 'v' in? don't do it. Really.


Anyway, are you sure you're not taking this question too seriously? Exactly how many people care about the philosophical difference between the AF, the PFJ, the ARH, the AMU, and the ARP?


----------



## 888 (Oct 15, 2005)

rich! said:
			
		

> Anyway, are you sure you're not taking this question too seriously? Exactly how many people care about the philosophical difference between the AF, the PFJ, the ARH, the AMU, and the ARP?



General forum is that way ---------------------------------->


----------



## rich! (Oct 15, 2005)

888 said:
			
		

> General forum is that way ---------------------------------->


I was just trying to stop 'm lending money to Dub?

Anyway, you're telling me you understand his point? (and pardon me for not doing so...)


----------



## blamblam (Oct 15, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> I hope AF’s proposals (especially the last one on building a network of community based social centres)


Have "the AF" proposed that??


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 15, 2005)

Yep, see http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/sheffield_draft_agenda.pdf under annex 'E'.


----------



## lostexpectation (Oct 15, 2005)

*say and do*

have the AF initiated any?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2005)

lostexpectation said:
			
		

> have the AF initiated any?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> Dear friends,
> as an individual AFer involved in the broader London scene, I will not deny that my feelings towards the Dissent Network are ambivalent. On the one hand I have a lot of sympathy for the people involved and its libertarian ethos (affinity groups, imaginative visions of the future, non-traditional mobilising methods...it had a great predecessor in the French March 22nd Movement in May '68...great stuff about that by Murray Bookchin in Post-Scarcity Anarchism). Also, Dissent has played an important role in keeping the post-G8 torch lingering in those smaller places where little in terms of libertarian organisations existed before. A few small, local groups which organised for G8 later even joined the Anarchist Federation.
> 
> On the other hand, I'm very troubled with what I perceive as tendencies towards creating a self-sufficient shell where people could live more peacefully "in the movement" - but merely as "outside agitators" to the rest of the population. Does Dissent have intentions to root itself in the local communities where its members live and/or work? How? Does it intend to basically work as a minoritarian & militant ""lobby"" group, and/or does it believe it is the right and responsibility of the majority of the population to bring forward radical change in this country? If "it" (i.e. individual members & member-groups) agrees with the latter, does it believe in the concept of instilling revolutionary consciousness into people from outside, or it subscribes to the (philosophically) materialistic notion of organic conscientisation? Although these are only ideal types, I believe it is possible to strongly root oneself in either the first ("propaganda of the deed") or the second (historically materialistic) tradition, and I also believe that experience from countries with much more developed anti-capitalist struggles indicates the relative poverty of activist ghettoes and "subcultures of resistance" dedicated to largely symbolic and substitutionist direct action initiatives in comparison with more encompassing and integrated approaches to radical social change (take the late Lotta Continua in Italy as a short, flawed, but still brilliant example of the integrated approach).
> ...


dear dan

whilst i applaud the sentiments behind yr open letter, i suspect that you and the af are wasting yr time putting a motion to dissent.

the dissent network showed its mettle in the run-up to, and during, the g8 conference in july. it was not a pretty sight. if they can't sort out things as simple as solidarity demonstrations for those arrested during the anti-g8 demonstrations, what can they do? i dread to think what might happen if those dissenters who organised the propaganda for the event ever attempted to put together a night of drunken debauchery in a brewery. or distillery. it just wouldn't work.

the interesting and worthwhile proposals from the af deserve some chance at least of success - so i both appalled and confused by them being submitted to dissent. as they are actually good ideas, it might be a better plot to bring them to a more ad hoc but better disposed body, perhaps through a meeting at the bookfair (if such has been organised) or through organising an af public meeting and publicising it at the bookfair.

frankly, yr wasting yr time going through dissent. and i would have thought that the g8 would have shown that the keenest dissenters were also the proud possessors of the anti-midas touch.

yrs fraternally,

Pickman's.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 15, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> Yep, see http://www.damtp.cam.ac.uk/user/jono/sheffield_draft_agenda.pdf under annex 'E'.


Here it is:


> Proposal from Anarchist Federation
> 3. That we consider forming a formal alliance with or become the organisers
> and promoters of a local social centres network, especially a network of
> "Dissent" social centres whose aim will be to outreach to communities to
> ...



For that to have been an AF proposal, that would have to be ratified by a national conference, right?

To me it sounds very unlikely they would agree to propose something like that...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2005)

something icepick found said:
			
		

> Proposal from Anarchist Federation
> 3. That we consider forming a formal alliance with or become the organisers
> and promoters of a local social centres network, especially a network of
> "Dissent" social centres whose aim will be to outreach to communities to
> ...



er...

where the fuck were all these thousands of people? i was under the impression that some thousands of people went to gleneagles for an afternoon, and many of them got a battering, including some lucky people who unwittingly met the scotland cricket team's star batsman.

but not 20,000 and not for a week...


----------



## blamblam (Oct 15, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> er...
> 
> where the fuck were all these thousands of people? i was under the impression that some thousands of people went to gleneagles for an afternoon, and many of them got a battering, including some lucky people who unwittingly met the scotland cricket team's star batsman.
> 
> but not 20,000 and not for a week...


Exactly that statement just sounds pretty illogical and very weird. Could any (other) AF person confirm it's genuine?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 15, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> the dissent network showed its mettle in the run-up to, and during, the g8 conference in july. it was not a pretty sight. if they can't sort out things as simple as solidarity demonstrations for those arrested during the anti-g8 demonstrations, what can they do? i dread to think what might happen if those dissenters who organised the propaganda for the event ever attempted to put together a night of drunken debauchery in a brewery. or distillery. it just wouldn't work.



what solidarity demo and what propaganda?


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 15, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Here it is:
> 
> 
> For that to have been an AF proposal, that would have to be ratified by a national conference, right?
> ...



It was agreed over our list - AF's not always that bureaucratic you know.


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 15, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> dear dan
> 
> whilst i applaud the sentiments behind yr open letter, i suspect that you and the af are wasting yr time putting a motion to dissent.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your support. To be honest, I don't think AF has either enough influence nor enough energy to start an initiative such as this. Also, unfortunately, there is an all to clear division of labour and skills among different groups, and people in Dissent seem to be most active and experienced in the social centres/squatting scene, so they are probably most likely to be able to pull it off.


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 15, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> but not 20,000 and not for a week...



I didn't write this and I don't know the numbers.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 15, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> It was agreed over our list - AF's not always that bureaucratic you know.


Right it just seems very very weird. Firstly cos the numbers are all wrong, and secondly cos it's just plain weird. Since when did the AF ever give a shit about "social centres"??


----------



## vimto (Oct 15, 2005)

God give me fucking strength


----------



## vimto (Oct 16, 2005)

Fight?  

You want a fight?

Keep it going and we'll all watch you doing exactly the same things that others have been doing since the dawn of time.  Fight among yourselves. It's pathetic...truly pathetic.

Where's your humanity for crying out loud?!

Where is it?


----------



## vimto (Oct 16, 2005)

Pours a Magners with ice


----------



## rednblack (Oct 16, 2005)

are you pissed?

i don't see any fighting on his thread...


----------



## vimto (Oct 16, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> are you pissed?
> 
> i don't see any fighting on his thread...


Fancy a fag?


----------



## vimto (Oct 16, 2005)

Blows smoke into rednblack's crumpled, ugly face


----------



## vimto (Oct 16, 2005)

Now that's fighting talk is it not?


----------



## poet (Oct 16, 2005)

And people wonder why I don't call myself an anarchist anymore...

Dissent are an ultimately meaningless social group masquerading as a political cause. Afed are an ultimately meaningless social group masquerading as a political cause. Unless everyone stops the in-fighting and pulls their finger out of their arse it's ging to stay that way for a very long time. For now I'm going to support anti-authoritarian groups that actually have any sort of influence like the cato institute. If that makes me a sellout then fuck yez, get back in your squatted ghetto.


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Oct 16, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> I'm not claiming there are other British organisations which have "discovered the formula", especially since more traditional groups lack in the genuine liberatory spirit, even if (or because?) they are closer to "ordinary" people.
> 
> 
> Dan


This is the problem mate, "ordinary people", the average thicko Essex chav like me reading this hasn't got a fucking clue what you are on about!   
Who are these "ordinary people" supposed to be?


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 16, 2005)

poet said:
			
		

> And people wonder why I don't call myself an anarchist anymore...
> 
> Dissent are an ultimately meaningless social group masquerading as a political cause. Afed are an ultimately meaningless social group masquerading as a political cause. Unless everyone stops the in-fighting and pulls their finger out of their arse it's ging to stay that way for a very long time. For now I'm going to support anti-authoritarian groups that actually have any sort of influence like the cato institute. If that makes me a sellout then fuck yez, get back in your squatted ghetto.



This letter isn't "in-fighting", and people who see it as that are really quite shallow. I can criticise present groups a lot, and I do it all the time, but I'm also a member of various other groups precisely to stimulate greater cooperation and more ambitious activities.

I wouldn't really call Cato Institute anti-authoritarian, they're "anarcho"-capitalists! If that's your alternative, you can keep it for yourself.


----------



## october_lost (Oct 16, 2005)

Will someone glarify the criticisms of the dissent network? I mean is there something I can read online...some people I knew who went to Gleneagles came back enthused about the level of co-operation and achievements of disrupting the states running of G8.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 16, 2005)

rich! said:
			
		

> Hi, welcome to urban.
> 
> Everyone is supposed to have a packet of hobnobs somewhere. Until you get your own, have one of mine... (*)
> 
> ...


 Mate you can't do the classics like 'have hob nob, don't lend dub fiver' with 300 poxy posts. At worst you look like your desperate to ingratiate yourself with the clique, at best trying too hard


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 16, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> This is the problem mate, "ordinary people", the average thicko Essex chav like me reading this hasn't got a fucking clue what you are on about!
> Who are these "ordinary people" supposed to be?


he's not talking to 'ordinary people' in his letter but to activists, inciting them to in fact talk more, to 'ordinary people'. The letter isn't going to be handed out to General Public in front of tesco's, its addressed to the libertarian network that trie to fuck with the G8 meeting in scotlnd this year.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 16, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> This letter isn't "in-fighting", and people who see it as that are really quite shallow. I can criticise present groups a lot, and I do it all the time, but I'm also a member of various other groups precisely to stimulate greater cooperation and more ambitious activities.
> 
> I wouldn't really call Cato Institute anti-authoritarian, they're "anarcho"-capitalists! If that's your alternative, you can keep it for yourself.


I wouldn't waste your time mate, he's a Hakim Bey fan for fucks sake


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 16, 2005)

By the way, am I the only one who hates it when a distinction is made between "activists" and "ordinary people"?  It smacks of vanguardism and contempt for the filthy masses, if you ask me.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 16, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> I wouldn't waste your time mate, he's a Hakim Bey fan for fucks sake


Does he support child rape and fascism like Hakim Bey as well? What a prick.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 16, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> Does he support child rape and fascism like Hakim Bey as well? What a prick.






			
				poet said:
			
		

> No, I still think TAZ is one of the finest anarchist texts ever written, I just think it's a bit sad that he's a nonce


The fact that Bey's noncery is an inextricable part of his political writing seems to have passed this numpty by.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 16, 2005)

poet said:
			
		

> And people wonder why I don't call myself an anarchist anymore...


WHAT PEOPLE?!


----------



## rednblack (Oct 16, 2005)

poet said:
			
		

> And people wonder why I don't call myself an anarchist anymore...



i never thought you were one, i knew you loved that nonce bey though, fucking temporary autonomus zones??  cop out, let's hope you're as much use to your fat racist buddy tom k&e as you were to 'anarchism'


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 16, 2005)

*jakapovich*

are ou from croatia/czeh region? Quit new to afed...?

Might know you from uluAA.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 16, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> This is the problem mate, "ordinary people", the average thicko Essex chav like me reading this hasn't got a fucking clue what you are on about!
> Who are these "ordinary people" supposed to be?


Ignoring the rest of this thread, which seems pretty pointless (and TBH I didn't really get what that article was about either, and not cos I'm from Essex ), this is silly. Firstly, Essex chavs aren't thickos - and nor are you. Well at least the same proportion are to everyone else, anyway.

Almost everyone has some kind of specialist knowledge or interest, and with specialised knowledge goes language and terminology. People outside that area won't understand a lot of internal dialogue. Intelligence doesn't have anything to do with it. I reckon "ordinary"'s a fair enough term to denote people outside any one specialist area, meaning "layperson" or something, even though of course every "ordinary" person will have their own different specialist interests as well.

IMVHO natch 

Poet's gotta be one of the weirdest posters on p-p


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 16, 2005)

yeah, pretty much. think he was in CW in the past, ask PM. I remember he used to post their stickers up.


----------



## 888 (Oct 16, 2005)

poet said:
			
		

> And people wonder why I don't call myself an anarchist anymore...


No one wonders. No doubt you'll be as much of an embarrassment to your new found Ayn Rand friends...


> For now I'm going to support anti-authoritarian groups that actually have any sort of influence like the cato institute.


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 16, 2005)

In Bloom said:
			
		

> By the way, am I the only one who hates it when a distinction is made between "activists" and "ordinary people"?  It smacks of vanguardism and contempt for the filthy masses, if you ask me.



I share your dislike of vanguardism if it's about trying to preserve an elite status, but it would be silly to deny reality and preach quasi-egalitarian bollocks that everyone's the same. Of course I wouldn't use that language for a regular leaflet - that would be quite stupid.


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 16, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> are ou from croatia/czeh region? Quit new to afed...?
> 
> Might know you from uluAA.



Yes, I'm from croatia. Yes, I was in ULU AA - what's happening with that, do you still meet? I have evening classes on Monday!

Can't think of who exactly you might be?


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2005)

SS , do you hover over all the boards, you seem omniscient!


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> fat racist buddy tom k&e


Not nice.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 17, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Not nice.



neither's racism


----------



## editor (Oct 17, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> neither's racism


Agreed. But right now I'm talking about your personal abuse. Kindly desist.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 17, 2005)

editor said:
			
		

> Agreed. But right now I'm talking about your personal abuse. Kindly desist.



fair enough


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 17, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> I share your dislike of vanguardism if it's about trying to preserve an elite status, but it would be silly to deny reality and preach quasi-egalitarian bollocks that everyone's the same. Of course I wouldn't use that language for a regular leaflet - that would be quite stupid.


Fair dos, funnily enough its my experience with dissent and the like that started my strong aversion to the activists vs. ordinary type stuff, a lot of people who call themselves anarchists seem to have worrying tendancy to display a fantastic ammount of contempt for the vast majority of people.

Edit: not that I'm accusing you of anything of the kind, just trying to explain why I said what I said


----------



## Stobart Stopper (Oct 17, 2005)

treelover said:
			
		

> SS , do you hover over all the boards, you seem omniscient!


Only when I see things I don't understand.
All this Dissent, SWP and Reclaim The Streets stuff, nobody around where I live understands any of it. And yet this is a working class area.


----------



## 888 (Oct 17, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> neither's racism



plus that wanker was going on about how great Pinochet was... probably a position that poet will soon come to agree with, given his laughable new faith.


----------



## treelover (Oct 17, 2005)

thats because there were/are very few W/C people in any of these groups, not even a decent balance.




> All this Dissent, SWP and Reclaim The Streets stuff, nobody around where I live understands any of it. And yet this is a working class area.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

*Open Letter to Dissent*

Dan dont waste your time.

I propose that all the patronising middle calss tossers/academic warriors chuck themselves in a canal with stones in  a sack.

Go back to exploring there alternative lifestyles and having hand signals at meetings of 3 in a pub.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 17, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> what solidarity demo and what propaganda?


the pisspoor big bother wankery. the solidarity demo on the friday organised by people who had their act vaguely together.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 17, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> the solidarity demo on the friday organised by people who had their act vaguely together.



the people who organised that had their act entirely together - it's not their fault if the dissent types let them down


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 17, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> Dan dont waste your time.
> 
> I propose that all the patronising middle calss tossers/academic warriors chuck themselves in a canal with stones in  a sack.
> 
> Go back to exploring there alternative lifestyles and having hand signals at meetings of 3 in a pub.



that's a bit radical. Anyway, the idea that we don't need the middle class on our side is very wrong. What we don't need is the "middle class" becoming a new elite.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 17, 2005)

innit.

Herbert, why aren't you in Class War rather than Afed? I've always wondered that.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 17, 2005)

... recommended for the few people that havent yet got one


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

Dan Jakopovich said:
			
		

> that's a bit radical. Anyway, the idea that we don't need the middle class on our side is very wrong. What we don't need is that the "middle class" becomes a new elite.



You can have the middle class on your side im for the canal.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 17, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> You can have the middle class on your side im for the canal.


i didnt think andy anderson was that well revered within the af, herbert? have times changed?


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> innit.
> 
> Herbert, why aren't you in Class War rather than Afed? I've always wondered that.



because im not 12

Why arent you in dissent organising the next symbolic protest


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> i didnt think andy anderson was that well revered within the af, herbert? have times changed?



canals as a dumping ground are well reverred up my end


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Oct 17, 2005)

Canals are water, not ground. Except on Mars.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Canals are water, not ground. Except on Mars.



only if they are full of water, plus no body except tools like you would say its a right dumping water over there in the canal.


----------



## Donna Ferentes (Oct 17, 2005)

That's kind of what canals are like, Herb. Full of water. Like rivers in that respect.


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 17, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> That's kind of what canals are like, Herb. Full of water. Like rivers in that respect.



No there is disused canals that are empty and full of junk. I cant believe im arguing about this  

I know why becuase i fucking love it


----------



## rednblack (Oct 17, 2005)

Donna Ferentes said:
			
		

> Canals are water, not ground. Except on Mars.



there are no canals on mars, shit no wonder you're so resentful towards oxford


----------



## free spirit (Oct 17, 2005)

RE. Anarchist Federation proposal.

dan - it's a shame that this didn't get posted a week ago as there was a national dissent gathering this weekend which I'm sure anarchist federation people would have been welcome to attend.

Unfortunately I couldn't make this meeting, and haven't actaully made it to any dissent gathering post g8 as the g8 effort completely wiped me out mentally, phisically and financially as I'm sure was the case for many of the people most heavily involved to various extents. I'm therefore not sure what the future holds for dissent as i've not been involved in the discussions.

In terms of AF joining dissent / working with dissent on a collaborative basis - essentially the dissent policy is as follows.



> Dissent! is open to anybody willing to work within the Hallmarks of Peoples' Global Action (PGA). These hallmarks being...
> 
> 1. A very clear rejection of capitalism, imperialism and feudalism; all trade agreements, institutions and governments that promote destructive globalisation.
> 
> ...



If AF works within these hallmarks as i suspect it does pretty much, then I can see no reason why there should be a problem with a link up, though I've no idea how AF would envisage this working in practice, and there'd probably need to be a fair amount of discussion to avoid any concerns about AF taking over dissent etc etc. as dissent is a relatively new and loose network of groups and individuals who essentially came together initially to facilitate protests at the G8, as well as trying to lay the foundations for a longer term network.

These are just some initial personal thoughts, and i'd in no way claim to be able to speak on behalf of the network, particularly given what i stated at the start about not having been at the recent gatherings.


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 17, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> RE. Anarchist Federation proposal.
> 
> dan - it's a shame that this didn't get posted a week ago as there was a national dissent gathering this weekend which I'm sure anarchist federation people would have been welcome to attend.
> 
> ...


IIRC, AF members have attended dissent gatherings and put forward proposals at them.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 17, 2005)

ah - yes i just read through the mimutes from the wales gathering and noticed that...


----------



## catch (Oct 17, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Only when I see things I don't understand.
> All this Dissent, SWP and Reclaim The Streets stuff, nobody around where I live understands any of it. And yet this is a working class area.



RTS is defunct as far as I know, although they did have some positive involvement in the liverpool dockers strike.

I don't understand the point of Dissent and the SWP, apart from to draw people interested in politics away from any potentially useful political activity they might do otherwise. They're both irrelevant to the vast majority of people and are likely to remain so.


----------



## blamblam (Oct 17, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> The Streets stuff, nobody around where I live understands any of it. And yet this is a working class area.


I mean it's pretty simple really. Safe to assume any weird bits that aren't immediately clear (i.e. about birds) are most likely drugs references.


----------



## Dan Jakopovich (Oct 17, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> RE. Anarchist Federation proposal.
> 
> dan - it's a shame that this didn't get posted a week ago as there was a national dissent gathering this weekend which I'm sure anarchist federation people would have been welcome to attend.



I only recently saw the draft agenda and alessio's comments.
Thanks for your positive remarks. Unfortunately some people were somewhat offended by the letter although I had good intentions - that the two general currents start sharing their fate more directly, for the sake of both and better prospects for our common goal - an egalitarian and autonomous society.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Oct 18, 2005)

Stobart Stopper said:
			
		

> Only when I see things I don't understand.
> All this Dissent, SWP and Reclaim The Streets stuff, nobody around where I live understands any of it. And yet this is a working class area.



Anarchism has a real problem in getting the message out to the people who should matter. I dont know the reasons for this as Im not involved in 'the scene' but given most working class peoples ambivolence/disillusionment with the current governmental system it appears a chance lost.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 18, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> I mean it's pretty simple really. Safe to assume any weird bits that aren't immediately clear (i.e. about birds) are most likely drugs references.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 18, 2005)

Barking_Mad said:
			
		

> Anarchism has a real problem in getting the message out to the people who should matter. I dont know the reasons for this as Im not involved in 'the scene' but given most working class peoples ambivolence/disillusionment with the current governmental system it appears a chance lost.


its a chance not yet really taken in a big way...


----------



## Barking_Mad (Oct 19, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> its a chance not yet really taken in a big way...



I agree. I don't want to critisise too much as there's people doing far more than me, but the anarchism 'scene' to me is something that you find rather than it finding you. Now that's fine for people who are actively interested in 'politics' and who might find their way into anarchism, bit like I did - but there's so many disallusioned people out there whose view of anarchism is little more than outright chaos. Bit of a waste in my view. If anarchism is going to become something more than a niche political idea then id have thought anarchists have to start doing more to spread the word. I realise that's easier said than done, but it needs a good shove in my view........


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 19, 2005)

i support the idea of to save up enough money (which the wombles have shown we can raise) to send a single sheet on what anarchism is and what it wants and why YOU, yes YOU mrse biggins of 46 Dunstall road lower brackbury, want it too. To Every Single Home In Britain. Can you imagine the attention such a gesture would get? Everyone would read it cos the media would make such a fuss.

It should be done at least once.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 19, 2005)

but what would it say of course.... 

cue more infighting.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 19, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> i support the idea of to save up enough money (which the wombles have shown we can raise) to send a single sheet on what anarchism is and what it wants and why YOU, yes YOU mrse biggins of 46 Dunstall road lower brackbury, want it too. To Every Single Home In Britain. Can you imagine the attention such a gesture would get? Everyone would read it cos the media would make such a fuss.
> 
> It should be done at least once.


 None. 

And what do you expect such a grand gesture to achieve? You have things upside down and back to front - you don't 'import' ideas into people, they come from their own life from their own relations, from their own experience - not from a leaflet by the enlightened and ideally they'd influence those 'in advance' (sic) of them to such an extent they'd drop such a silly suggestion.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 19, 2005)

butchersapron said:
			
		

> None.
> 
> And what do you expect such a grand gesture to achieve? You have things upside down and back to front - you don't 'import' ideas into people, they come from their own life from their own relations, from their own experience - not from a leaflet by the enlightened and ideally they'd influence those 'in advance' (sic) of them to such an extent they'd drop such a silly suggestion.


indeed.

I heard a similar hare brained suggestion a few years ago... actually it went further than a suggestion... it almost became a fundraising project, for a small pamphlet on 'What is anarchism?' with a print run of many millions to be distibuted. what a waste of money, paper and time


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 19, 2005)

yes i saw that coming. I think it would complement what other community work you were doing as well. Not in advance of, but at the same time as...

Guestimate the percentage of people who are anarchists and whose beliefs came entirely from their every day life without any reading or prompting whatsoever please.

Also could you tell me what the AF is doing right now today and tommorrow in workplaces and communities. 

This is not a challenge, i am trying to make my mind up about something


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 19, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> yes i saw that coming. I think it would complement what other community work you were doing as well. Not in advance of, but at the same time as...
> 
> Guestimate the percentage of people who are anarchists and whose beliefs came entirely from their every day life without any reading or prompting whatsoever please.
> 
> ...


so the reason that the working class havent revolted against capital is because they dont yet understand anarchism?!!! ffs... think about what youre saying for a minute


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> so the reason that the working class havent revolted against capital is because they dont yet understand anarchism?!!! ffs... think about what youre saying for a minute



if only they could undersatnd


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> This is not a challenge, i am trying to make my mind up about something



It does whatever the individaual members do, myself im involved with social centres, squatting and trade union struggle.


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> so the reason that the working class havent revolted against capital is because they dont yet understand anarchism?!!! ffs... think about what youre saying for a minute


no they have revolted and resisted in many many ways since the creation of the class, i am well aware of this; the question, is why there revolts have not often been anarchic, or being to achieve anarchy. I am actually thinking about what i'm saying.

e.g. Poll tax revolt; primarily against taxes, but federalised resistance, a brilliant example of how w/c organising can take on and win against the govt. But did those who participated do so out of a desire for anarchy? Maybe! Was that explicit? No.

Why are people tearing into me for suggesting a propaganda drive. You expect to spread resistance by osmosis? By telepathy? Yes people want to defend their communities and defend their rights and they want a freer world, but do the majority of people agree that in fact the entire system is stacked to do the opposite, to defend the rights of the few? Many say that kind of thing, but few act on it. Few genuinely believe the ONLY option is rebellion. Rebellions happen from time to time, isn't the idea to be the current trying to run through in between, to link and build the reasons WHY we rebel why we HAVE to? yes i know that sounds trotskyite/leninist, but thats the truth. We involve ourseles in struggle, but we also understand its always part of a bigger picture - THE struggle.

You seem ready to pigeon hole me in a certain stereotypes of a condescending wanker; is it because I is middle class?


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> It does whatever the individaual members do, myself im involved with social centres, squatting and trade union struggle.


why would you need a national federation to do what individauals want to do?
friendly q


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> You seem ready to pigeon hole me in a certain stereotypes of a condescending wanker;


 what have i said that suggests this?






			
				Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> no they have revolted and resisted in many many ways since the creation of the class, i am well aware of this; the question, is why there revolts have not often been anarchic, or being to achieve anarchy. I am actually thinking about what i'm saying....


well then... you conceive of the conditions for revolution as it being necessary first for everyone (or a significant enough majority) of people to subscribe to 'anarchism' or another ideology. Correct?


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> why would you need a national federation to do what individauals want to do?
> friendly q



to co ordinate and discuss


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> well then... you conceive of the conditions for revolution as it being necessary first for everyone (or a significant enough majority) of people to subscribe to 'anarchism' or another ideology. Correct?


No - the conditions for revolts (not neccessarily revolutions) are primarily economic, and a little bit social. If you want it to go further, it would help that people were aware of your arguments. I don't believe that if 56% of the population had read Marx/Kropotkin/an issue of Class War (delete as applicable to personal taste) then we would have a revolt. 

But it would help!




			
				Top Dog said:
			
		

> what have i said that suggests this?


 nothing really, it was more herbs commnet 'if only they would understand'. I appreciate you aren't be off


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> to co ordinate and discuss


Discuss i understand, and i see a very high level of discussion in organise.
But 'co ordinate', coordinate what? Your individual actions?

Still friendly mind


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

*just spotted this*




			
				Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> Herbert why aren't you in Class War?






			
				Herbert Read said:
			
		

> because im not 12


what do you mean? Your politics seem fairly bang on for CW; staunchly w/c, up for it, nihilistic, dislike of complex theory (from nihilist perspective), based in the here and now (again from your nihilist perspective), believe in riots as an insurgency and this as the way to gain power... Sounds like CW.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> I don't believe that if 56% of the population had read Marx/Kropotkin/an issue of Class War (delete as applicable to personal taste) then we would have a revolt.
> 
> But it would help!


Explain why it would help - you need to develop this? because _this_ is what differentiates a materialist analysis from an idealist one... and the latter is an accusation that many trots constantly complain (in the main, incorrectly) that anarchists are: idealists. 

Nothing you have added here changes what you are arguing, which is that it is ideas that come first, and action that follow from those ideas... ie. you need the _ideology_ in order to be revolutionary [sic]


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

hmmm... I see what you mean.

No i don't think it is a prerequisite, i just think it helps to have propaganda. Its not a neccessity. I thought anarchism had pretty much grown out of empiricism, at leat the kind we are interested (fuck individulists and liberals of the C18th)...
Ideology is a dirty word. Do you have an ideology? has reading ideological books ever helped you understand the material world?


----------



## blamblam (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> what do you mean? Your politics seem fairly bang on for CW; staunchly w/c, up for it, nihilistic, dislike of complex theory (from nihilist perspective), based in the here and now (again from your nihilist perspective), believe in riots as an insurgency and this as the way to gain power... Sounds like CW.


That's one way of putting it I suppose


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

the question about action or ideology is simplistic it is not either/or some people come to ideas of working class self organisation through reading about it, others through action both are equally valid


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> the question about action or ideology is simplistic it is not either/or some people come to ideas of working class self organisation through reading about it, others through action both are equally valid


Thank you! I owe you a pint


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

icepick said:
			
		

> That's one way of putting it I suppose


argh, no i'm not trying to insult anyone! Shit, i mean that kind of ideology, which AFAIK Herbert is proud to espouse, fits in best with CW. That is NOT the sum total of CW; i like CW, the paper, themebers i have met, the books and the ideas. I'm not trying to insult one with the other, the organisation or the person.

[bridges for bookfair unburnt]

You going to be there icepick?


----------



## kropotkin (Oct 20, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> the question about action or ideology is simplistic it is not either/or some people come to ideas of working class self organisation through reading about it, others through action both are equally valid



'd like to agree with you, but I still feel that I would be way cooler [and more effective] if i'd come to my politics through activity and struggle rather than reading!


----------



## Herbert Read (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> argh, no i'm not trying to insult anyone! Shit, i mean that kind of ideology, which AFAIK Herbert is proud to espouse, fits in best with CW. That is NOT the sum total of CW; i like CW, the paper, themebers i have met, the books and the ideas. I'm not trying to insult one with the other, the organisation or the person.
> 
> [bridges for bookfair unburnt]
> 
> You going to be there icepick?



what i post on the boards is a one dimensional caricature and is subjective, why do you wish to pigeon hole one person to certain groups who gives a fuck


----------



## blamblam (Oct 20, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> what i post on the boards is a one dimensional caricature


Thank god for that!

I find your anti-middle class rants very funny. Especially since I found out you were a social worker


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> what i post on the boards is a one dimensional caricature and is subjective, why do you wish to pigeon hole one person to certain groups who gives a fuck



it's revol68 with a different accent!


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

kropotkin said:
			
		

> 'd like to agree with you, but I still feel that I would be way cooler [and more effective] if i'd come to my politics through activity and struggle rather than reading!



you see, in a way i think it's cooler to come into it through reading, it's easy (to my mind) to come in via struggle as you soon learn that the others will sell you out sooner or later - but coming to it through reading i dunno just seems nicer?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

Taxamo Welf said:
			
		

> hmmm... I see what you mean.
> 
> No i don't think it is a prerequisite, i just think it helps to have propaganda. Its not a neccessity...
> 
> Do you have an ideology? has reading ideological books ever helped you understand the material world?


before the thread moves on any further, lets just be clear... i dont think anyone has suggested that ideas and action _should be_ seperated out. In fact the opposite is the case... its the very separation of the one from the other that is the problem. 

Secondly im not against propaganda _per se_, but it has a time and a place and that time and place is not from an unsolicited cold mailshot thru your letterbox next to a pizza hut flyer   Ideas have currency and potency during moments of struggle. By themselves they are just ideas. You cant _build_ a social movement out of 'winning over the masses' to an idea by itself and with no social context 

Thirdly we have moved on from talking about mailshoting the entire population to discussing how revolutionary minorities come to into politics - so lets not get the points jumbled up. So to answer your last question, i try to keep a big distance between myself and ideology (and so i tend not to align myself with any particular 'tradition' but rather acknowledge that there has been good and bad come from many traditions within revolutionary history). 

That hasnt always been the case tho. I expect for most of us it was a learning curve and my ideas have certainly changed as a result of my reading... but it is also the case that i found the anarchist movement rather than it finding me... and fucking difficult it was to find as well i can tell ya, <...remembers a world _before_ the internet   >


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 20, 2005)

Herbert Read said:
			
		

> what i post on the boards is a one dimensional caricature and is subjective, why do you wish to pigeon hole one person to certain groups who gives a fuck


.....

Ok.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> before the thread moves on any further, lets just be clear... i dont think anyone has suggested that ideas and action _should be_ seperated out. In fact the opposite is the case... its the very separation of the one from the other that is the problem.
> 
> Secondly im not against propaganda _per se_, but it has a time and a place and that time and place is not from an unsolicited cold mailshot thru your letterbox next to a pizza hut flyer   Ideas have currency and potency during moments of struggle. By themselves they are just ideas. You cant _build_ a social movement out of 'winning over the masses' to an idea by itself and with no social context
> 
> ...


So now you're some sort of vague "revolutionary"?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> So now you're some sort of vague "revolutionary"?


still a communist. There's nothing vague about me charlie


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

Anarchism 2000? Remind you of something?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Anarchism 2000? Remind you of something?


reminds me that there were one group arguing for that and another group arguing against it... now which camp were you in?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

Whether or not to let the trots try to jump on board? And whether it should be Anarchism 2000 or the fucking awful fudge as a result of RTS parachuting in for one meeting?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Whether or not to let the trots try to jump on board? And whether it should be Anarchism 2000 or the fucking awful fudge as a result of RTS parachuting in for one meeting?


so do you think it would have been a more popular event had it had a different name? an anarchist brand?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 20, 2005)

topdog did you ever get that expulsion letter framed? 




*retires to safe distance*


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> topdog did you ever get that expulsion letter framed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


no... but i had to find a safe house for all my old IBs   And bulletproofing my windows cost me an arm and a leg (almost literally!)


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

He was never expelled. He just cleared off- didn't tell us or anything, no letter, no explanation.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 20, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> He was never expelled. He just cleared off- didn't tell us or anything, no letter, no explanation.


i think drifted off is more accurate... but the rest, yeah... i regret not doing that. 

It'll all be in the memoirs tho   RnB has agreed to proof them


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

Clear off, drift off... what's the difference?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 20, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> so do you think it would have been a more popular event had it had a different name? an anarchist brand?


The idea was to try and put anarchism on the agenda. In fact it was you who was one of the people to think the thing up. Then along comes John Jordan, fucking Doctor Chris Knight and co and turns it into a vague "anticapitalist" event. Ha!
And I seem to remember, but correct me if I'm wrong. a certain person, sat on their hands on that one.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 20, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Then along comes John Jordan


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> The idea was to try and put anarchism on the agenda. In fact it was you who was one of the people to think the thing up. Then along comes John Jordan, fucking Doctor Chris Knight and co and turns it into a vague "anticapitalist" event. Ha!
> And I seem to remember, but correct me if I'm wrong. a certain person, sat on their hands on that one.


actually charles, you _are_ in need of correction here... i didnt side in the end with those wanting it to be a solely 'anarchist' event because i _agreed_ with the proposal to widen it out.* I think the conference's size, content, broad reach and heterogenous nature proved this to be the correct decision. 

* which isnt to say that to do so you puts you 'on the side' of Jordan et al... there was more than two sides to the thing as you well know...


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

Yes, there's the right side, the left side, the front side... and the backside. Which side are you on? in the words of the old American miners' song.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Yes, there's the right side, the left side, the front side... and the backside. Which side are you on? in the words of the old American miners' song.


well, allowing for a wee of artistic license with the words of Johnny Cash:

_"... the one on the right was on the left
And the one in the middle was on the right
And the one on the left was in the middle
And the guy in the rear was an Anarchist"_


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> actually charles, you _are_ in need of correction here... i didnt side in the end with those wanting it to be a solely 'anarchist' event because i _agreed_ with the proposal to widen it out.* I think the conference's size, content, broad reach and heterogenous nature proved this to be the correct decision.
> 
> * which isnt to say that to do so you puts you 'on the side' of Jordan et al... there was more than two sides to the thing as you well know...


apart from anything else, letting in the trots?


----------



## free spirit (Oct 21, 2005)

> actually charles, you are in need of correction here... i didnt side in the end with those wanting it to be a solely 'anarchist' event because i agreed with the proposal to widen it out.* I think the conference's size, content, broad reach and heterogenous nature proved this to be the correct decision.



was this the 2 day get together prior to the mayday guerilla gardening escapade you're on about? If so the only reason I and a contingent of 20+ from newcastle were there was the involvement of RTS, same went for most of the people i met there IIRC.   

<as you were>


----------



## Taxamo Welf (Oct 21, 2005)

nice one lads, only go and prove what that twat poet was saying on page two...


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

Taxamo, you weren't around for these events, as far as I am aware, so......


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> apart from anything else, letting in the trots?


and so what?

This discussion was done to death at the time... if you want to exclude trots by calling the thing an 'anarchist' event you succeed in excluding many more people than just trots. Was that what you wanted? an anarchist-only event? doesnt the bookfair provide exactly such an opportunity for that kinda thing? 

-- _As an aside, even if we had given a free stall to every lefty outfit in the country, (and they had no stalls) do you really think anyone in attendance would have had given them the time of day?! It would have been their loss not 'ours'_ --

But the conference was bigger than just an anarchist recruitment show and im very pleased and proud that it was. Being able to work together with people from other traditions in such ways - and yes _of course _ there would be tensions - is a gauge of the maturity and strength a movement has reached. I remember after Bradford Mayday 98 the ACF being very lovey-dovey with the rest of the milieu (- it was a very good period to be around)... But it sounds like this all got squandered if the AF then retreated back into sectarianism two years later...  tho i appreciate that these are your own views and not the fed's as a whole


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

No, we stopped WP and the SWP hijacking the event and you sat on your hands. Something I'll never forgive people who would have allowed this to happen.
There's a big difference between letting anyone attend- fine- and actually letting Trots run sessions, which is what you acquiesced on!
Strange the way you retreated so quickly from your original position.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> No, we stopped WP and the SWP hijacking the event and you sat on your hands. Something I'll never forgive people who would have allowed this to happen.
> There's a big difference between letting anyone attend- fine- and actually letting Trots run sessions, which is what you acquiesced on!
> Strange the way you retreated so quickly from your original position.


what exactly are you suggesting? that im some kind of closet trot sympathiser?

I notice you havent bothered to answer any of the points in my previous post

<and btw... you display a huge lack of confidence in your own politics and abilities if you really think that a maximum of 5 trots in total out of a regular attendance of 50+ anarchists/anti-capitalists could "hijack" the event the rest of were putting on!...>


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> apart from anything else, letting in the trots?


  

isn't there a trot gene we can eradicate from future generations?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Something I'll never forgive people who would have allowed this to happen.




don't you think that's a little bit histrionic?  never!?

jeez


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Something I'll never forgive people who would have allowed this to happen.


so not just the people who let it happen, but the people who would have let it happen if they'd thought of it or been there or felt that some of these trots might see the error of their ways?

and the people they know too?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

Pickman's model said:
			
		

> so not just the people who let it happen, but the people who would have let it happen if they'd thought of it or been there or felt that some of these trots might see the error of their ways?
> 
> and the people they know too?


i think charlie's being a bit of a drama queen this week...


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 21, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> i think charlie's being a bit of a drama queen this week...


a bit?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

And what would you have done under the circumstances? A straight answer, no farting around for once


----------



## free spirit (Oct 21, 2005)

quick question - is this the 2 day conferencey thing just before mayday 2000 you're talking about or something completely different?

and i'm just going to pick pickmans model up on a statement he made on the 1st page (sorry i should have done this earlier but...)


> the dissent network showed its mettle in the run-up to, and during, the g8 conference in july. it was not a pretty sight.


serious question, what exactly did dissent do to piss you off so much? I know it was pretty chaotic, but personally I thought everyone in dissent did pretty well to pull off what we did considering it was the first time most of the people in the network had worked together, and the network involved groups from all over the country pulling together to run convergence spaces in 3 cities, accomodate indymedia, run a 24/7 action medics team at all actions, run a 24/7 legal support team, legal observers, run a 10 minibus shuttle set up between 3 convergence spaces and gleneagles, have a trauma team on site, run these spaces as temporary autonomous zones with no police presence on site etc.

bear in mind that the campsite location was changed 6 times due to police pressure on landowners, with the last site only being found at 3 weeks notice after members of dissent basically threatened to squat half of stirling if a site wasn't found.



> if they can't sort out things as simple as solidarity demonstrations for those arrested during the anti-g8 demonstrations, what can they do?


 not sure what this is about... if it's about the prisoner solidarity demo that attempted to leave site on the thursday to support those in court that day, then I counted 80 riot vans outside the site, making over 800 riot police blocakding the site to prevent the demo leaving site.

In terms of prisoner support, dissent had to divert most of its minibus fleet to the job of picking up prisoners from courts all over scotland, yet we managed to meet and pick up most of the 600+ people arrested outside of the various courts. I'm not sure how the prisoner supports been going since then, but the team of people looking after the legal support and prisoner support side all seemed pretty dedicated.



> i dread to think what might happen if those dissenters who organised the propaganda for the event ever attempted to put together a night of drunken debauchery in a brewery. or distillery. it just wouldn't work.



I and a load of people involved in or most closely alligned to dissent (and i guess earth first / green party) in Newcastle run a free 2 day community environmental festival for 12,000 people every mayday, and I run monthly club nights for 5-900 people... your point is?

on the propaganda front are you criticising the lack of info about convergence spaces? if so then i'd point you to the bit above where dissent couldn't publicise the convergence space locations because we had no idea where they were going to be until the last minute. If it's the distribution, then yeah it could have gone wider and i'd have expoected more round london, but then half the london crew were running round scotland trying to find locations for the rural convergence space. Dissent did manage to attract hundreds of people from across europe, the US and beyond though, so it obivously wasn't too bad.

btw - I'm interested to hear constructive criticisms, and i've got a fair few of my own, but I still reckon that overall the dissent network pulled off a mini miracle for it's first major activity.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 21, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> And what would you have done under the circumstances? A straight answer, no farting around for once


who is that directed to? and what are you actually asking?


----------



## rednblack (Oct 21, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> people in the network had worked together, and the network involved groups from all over the country pulling together to run convergence spaces in 3 cities, accomodate indymedia, run a 24/7 action medics team at all actions, run a 24/7 legal support team, legal observers, run a 10 minibus shuttle set up between 3 convergence spaces and gleneagles, have a trauma team on site, run these spaces as temporary autonomous zones with no police presence on site etc.
> 
> .



the legal observers are nothing to do with dissent - the ldmg is an independent group who would have been there anyway
the action medics were mostly independent of dissent and so were the trauma group

how much money did the rest cost?


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> who is that directed to? and what are you actually asking?


Pickman's


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 21, 2005)

Anyway, see you all at the Bookfair!! Bye for now!!


----------



## catch (Oct 21, 2005)

Free spirit, I know it wasn't directed at me, but in my case you've at least partially answered your own question




			
				free spirit said:
			
		

> serious question, what exactly did dissent do to piss you off so much?





> run these spaces as temporary autonomous zones



And rednblack's points are salient.


----------



## free spirit (Oct 22, 2005)

> the legal observers are nothing to do with dissent - the ldmg is an independent group who would have been there anyway
> the action medics were mostly independent of dissent and so were the trauma group



bollocks 

dissent is a network of independent groups, so while these groups pretty much got on and organised themselves they were doing it as part of the dissent umbrella, took their budget from the same pot of money as the convergence spaces, were based out of the dissent organised convergence spaces, had representatives attending the dissent gatherings in advance.

by your rationale dissent actually did nothing as all the convergence spaces were organised by different groups, transport was organised by the transport group etc. but then you're totally misunderstanding the point that dissent is a network, and that's how it operates. 

Yes the legal observers team was based on an existing group, but what are you suggesting? That dissent should have ignored the fact that there was an experienced team of legal observers willing to work with dissent, told them to piss off and go observe elsewhere, then attempted to set up a new dissent team of observers... why would you advocate that? Had the existing team of legal observers not been prepared to work with dissent then another team of observers would have been pulled together, but that wasn't the case.



> how much money did the rest cost?


what the fucks that got to do with anything? are you saying dissent should have looked at the fact the G8 was in gleneagles, and the cost of mobilising and accomodating people nearby was going to be exhorbitant so fuck it we should just have given up and done nothing instead? As far as i'm aware the costs were covered so....



> Free spirit, I know it wasn't directed at me, but in my case you've at least partially answered your own question
> 
> Quote:
> Originally Posted by free spirit
> ...



Sorry i must be missing something, are you saying you'd have preferred these spaces to have allowed the police on site? if you fancied non TAZ style accomodation edinburgh council was running a campsite with big fences, 24/7 paid security guards and police on site. If that's more your cup of tea then that's your choice, but it wasn't mine so i got off my arse and helped organise an alternative (well actually the edingurgh campsite was only planned very last minute after the council panicked, so had dissent not got spaces sorted there may well have been nowhere for anyone to stay).


----------



## catch (Oct 23, 2005)

> non TAZ style




I'll spell it out. Temporary Autonomous Zones are phantoms that exist only in the brains of a few fantasists. The term itself was invented by a fascist sympathiser who uses the term to justify his and others' paedophilia.

From bey himself: http://www.t0.or.at/hakimbey/taz/taz3d.htm


> Therefore, from among the experiments of the inter-War period I'll concentrate instead on the madcap Republic of Fiume, which is much less well known, and was not meant to endure. Gabriele D'Annunzio, Decadent poet, artist, musician, aesthete, womanizer, pioneer daredevil aeronautist, black magician, genius and cad, emerged from World War I as a hero with a small army at his beck and command: the "Arditi." At a loss for adventure, he decided to capture the city of Fiume from Yugoslavia and give it to Italy. ...
> 
> In a huff, D'Annunzio decided to declare independence and see how long he could get away with it. He and one of his anarchist friends wrote the Constitution, which declared music to be the central principle of the State. .... The party never stopped. Every morning D'Annunzio read poetry and manifestos from his balcony; every evening a concert, then fireworks. This made up the entire activity of the government. Eighteen months later, when the wine and money had run out and the Italian fleet finally showed up and lobbed a few shells at the Municipal Palace, no one had the energy to resist.
> ... It was in some ways the last of the pirate utopias (or the only modern example)--in other ways, perhaps, it was very nearly the first modern TAZ.



From Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gabriele_D'Annunzio


> Angered by the proposed handing over of the city of Fiume (now Rijeka in Croatia) at the Paris Peace Conference, on 12 September 1919, he led the seizure by Italian nationalist irregulars of the city, forcing the withdrawal of the inter-Allied (American, British and French) occupying forces. The plotters sought to have Italy annex Fiume, but were denied. Instead, Italy initiated a blockade of Fiume while demanding that the plotters surrender. D'Annunzio then declared Fiume an independent state (the "Italian Regency of Carnaro") with a constitution foreshadowing much of the later Italian Fascist system, with himself as "Duce" (dictator).
> 
> ...
> The constitution established a corporatist state, with nine corporations to represent the different sectors of the economy (workers, employers, professionals), and a tenth (D'Annunzio's invention) to represent the "superior" human beings (heroes, poets, prophets, supermen). The Carta also declared that music was the fundamental principle of the state.
> ...








Annunzio and Mussolini.

For Bey's paedophilia see here: 
http://libcom.org/library/leaving-out-ugly-part-hakim-bey


----------



## blamblam (Oct 23, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> Sorry i must be missing something, are you saying you'd have preferred these spaces to have allowed the police on site? if you fancied non TAZ style accomodation edinburgh council was running a campsite with big fences, 24/7 paid security guards and police on site. If that's more your cup of tea then that's your choice, but it wasn't mine so i got off my arse and helped organise an alternative (well actually the edingurgh campsite was only planned very last minute after the council panicked, so had dissent not got spaces sorted there may well have been nowhere for anyone to stay).


Why waste all that time, money and effort organising a camp site if the council was doing it for free?

Instead of living in a council house would you rather build you own? Or nip down to a squat for some tea tree oil rather than use the NHS?

Please don't talk about that fascist paedo's TAZ as a good thing...


----------



## free spirit (Oct 24, 2005)

> Why waste all that time, money and effort organising a camp site if the council was doing it for free?



because until bob geldof caused edinburgh council to shit themselves by calling for a million people to head to the g8 they had no plans to run a campsite, and unless you had a crystal ball I don't see how you'd have known for sure this was going to happen. Also the council site was in edinburgh, and the G8 was meeting in Gleneagles, we wanted to be as close as possible to gleneagles, not sure why you think everyone being in edinburgh would have been a good plan, or why you favour placing all the protesters in the oh so caring hands of the local authorities. 

What would your tactic have been for forcing the councils hand... look mr councillor sir, it's like this, either you arrange and pay for a campsite for these protesters or we'll just not come...



> Please don't talk about that fascist paedo's TAZ as a good thing...


 I wasn't. I must admit i'd not known about the history of TAZ as stated here, but in terms of the dissent organised spaces they were Temporary, they were Autonomous (by the people for the people, with the minimum of involvement form the authorities) and they were a Zone as in a defined space. so by my reckoning a TAZ is a fairly accurate description, or are you saying that only facists are capable of organising TAZ's? or that anyone organising a TAZ must be a facist...



> Temporary Autonomous Zones are phantoms that exist only in the brains of a few fantasists.


 ok i'll admit it, I imagined it all


----------



## winjer (Oct 24, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> because until bob geldof caused edinburgh council to shit themselves by calling for a million people to head to the g8 they had no plans to run a campsite


Utter bollocks, the council were planning to provide camping in Niddrie long before Geldof called for anything.



> not sure why you think everyone being in edinburgh would have been a good plan, or why you favour placing all the protesters in the oh so caring hands of the local authorities.


And a campsite with one easily blocked entrance was a huge strategic advance over that? 



> What would your tactic have been for forcing the councils hand... look mr councillor sir, it's like this, either you arrange and pay for a campsite for these protesters or we'll just not come...


Obviously  the opposite is the better tactic, as it was in reality.


----------



## sovietpop (Oct 24, 2005)

I haven't read this entire thread, so apologies if I  de-rail the thread a little.

One thing that struck me strongly at the bookfair this year is that nobody was mentioning any victories that have occurred in the last few years. 

And I was thinking about this afterwards, and it occurred to me, that in the
context of years and years (decades?) of defeats, any success, no matter how minor or insignificant would be seized upon, publicised and gloried in.

And the only success I can think of was the G8 protests. Now I can understand that it is not the kind of social struggle that people want, that it was transient, perhaps periperhal etc etc, yet within its own (perhaps limited terms) it did succeed. 

So I just think it is weird, that so much time and enegry is spent running it down, as if summit protests were the problem. They aren't.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 24, 2005)

anyway how come the anarchist federation were selling pamphlets by a fascist sympathising pedononce ?! (in polish as well  )


*scarpers*


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> anyway how come the anarchist federation were selling pamphlets by a fascist sympathising pedononce ?! (in polish as well  )
> 
> 
> *scarpers*


I did wonder myself, nobody seemed to have any clue where those books came from or what they were doing there


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

rednblack said:
			
		

> anyway how come the anarchist federation were selling pamphlets by a fascist sympathising pedononce ?! (in polish as well  )
> 
> 
> *scarpers*


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

Some guy from Polish Anarchist federation gave us a lot of books in Polish so we put them on the stall for any Polish speaker to take free. Didn't notice that particular title among 'em at time, so there you have it. I s'pose Jack "Cock" Upton will make a big deal about it , though.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

Quite a difference between that and being a complete wuss by rolling over and letting the Trots walk over you,though, isn't it?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Quite a difference between that and being a complete wuss by rolling over and letting the Trots walk over you,though, isn't it?


oh... dear...


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

"Don't roll those bloodshoot eyes at me"

Bloodshot Eyes by either Wynonie Harris if you like jump blues or Hank Penny if you like Western swing


----------



## In Bloom (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Quite a difference between that and being a complete wuss by rolling over and letting the Trots walk over you,though, isn't it?


Que?


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

He's having a pop at _me_, In Bloom. However inaccurately or pointless


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 24, 2005)

Fun though! especially when you start getting jittery!!
Oh, and not inaccurate, I believe.


----------



## Top Dog (Oct 24, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> especially when you start getting jittery!!


Que?

 



			
				charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> Oh, and not inaccurate, I believe.


but all you've done so far is a bit of name calling   

...you never _did_ get round to answer any of the points i made several posts back. But if you wanna revisit the whole boring subject fine by me...

You never know, it _might_ mean you get a long overdue 'open' letter of resignation. Then we might see who gets jittery


----------



## free spirit (Oct 24, 2005)

winjer





> Originally Posted by free spirit
> 'because until bob geldof caused edinburgh council to shit themselves by calling for a million people to head to the g8 they had no plans to run a campsite'
> 
> Utter bollocks, the council were planning to provide camping in Niddrie long before Geldof called for anything.



ok - i accept I'm not sure exactly what edinburgh council had been planning when, and they probably had been working on campsite plans prior to geldofs announcement. What i guess i should have put was that afaik dissent weren't aware that anyone else was 100% confirmed to be sorting out campsite accomodation for people, or numbers, or any details until just after geldofs announcement, though i think some people had heard something about this being an unconfirmed possiblity.

maybe you're right, maybe everyone involved in dissent would have been better off relying on the council to sort everything out for us, leaving more time for bickering endlessly...


----------



## catch (Oct 25, 2005)

free spirit said:
			
		

> I wasn't. I must admit i'd not known about the history of TAZ as stated here,



I think you've misunderstood my post. I don't think anything can be autonomous under capitalism. If your definition is 



> by the people for the people, with the minimum of involvement form the authorities


then that's a loose enough definition to be meaningless. What "autonomous" often means a sense of liberty devoid of social content, independence rather than freedom; personalistic, atomised; the sort of liberty that sits very well under capitalism since it doesn't offer any real challenge as either a concept or practice. Bey discounts any possibility of social revolution in Temporary Autonomous Zone.



> or are you saying that only facists are capable of organising TAZ's? or that anyone organising a TAZ must be a facist...



I didn't call Bey a fascist, I called him a paedophilic fascist sympathiser. Despite promoting those views he's widely accepted as a lifestyle anarchist, his books are printed by (the otherwise excellent) AK Press etc. etc. So those who use the term I wouldn't call fascists, I'd call them other things though.



> ok i'll admit it, I imagined it all


You didn't imagine the campsite, but the idea that the campsite was somehow separate from the capitalist society we live in, autonomous from it, that's fantasy, yes.


----------



## rednblack (Oct 25, 2005)

catch said:
			
		

> You didn't imagine the campsite, but the idea that the campsite was somehow separate from the capitalist society we live in, autonomous from it, that's fantasy, yes.



and a dangerous fantasy at that, the state would love it if all libertarian minded people took themselves of to a "self organised commune" or whatever...


----------



## free spirit (Oct 25, 2005)

Autonomy.... In politics, a self-governing city or region... according to wickipedia

this would be my understanding of the meaning of the word, and in that sense we operated as aunomously as we could do within the framework of the capitalist state controlled society we live in. Yes we had to deal with the authorities, buy and rent equipment for the site, and didn't grow our own food etc. but the point i was trying to make was that we ran these spaces as autonomously as we could do, which was a vastly different way of operating than the edinburgh site IMHO.



> and a dangerous fantasy at that, the state would love it if all libertarian minded people took themselves of to a "self organised commune" or whatever...


I'm not quite sure i agree with you, but in any case this wasn't what I or Dissent were advocating, we were merely wanting to create a safe self managed space for people to come to for the period of the G8 protests.

Actually thinking about it, most of the examples I can think of would seem to indicate that the state doesn't like self organised communes or whatever... 





> And I was thinking about this afterwards, and it occurred to me, that in the
> context of years and years (decades?) of defeats, any success, no matter how minor or insignificant would be seized upon, publicised and gloried in.
> 
> And the only success I can think of was the G8 protests. Now I can understand that it is not the kind of social struggle that people want, that it was transient, perhaps periperhal etc etc, yet within its own (perhaps limited terms) it did succeed.
> ...


My thoughts exactly Sovietpop, the government deliberately put the G8 in the most inaccessible place possible in the belief that this would stop people being able to protest, yet we (and I don't just mean Dissent) managed to get thousands of people up there protesting and forcing them to have to bring in reinforcements via chinook helicopters to protect the meeting.

OK so we didn't shut the meeting down completely, or change the world, but we at least showed that we weren't going to take this shit lieing down.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

Top Dog said:
			
		

> Que?
> 
> 
> but all you've done so far is a bit of name calling
> ...


I've got absolutely nothing to get jittery about ( in your dreams)


----------



## cats hammers (Oct 25, 2005)

charlie mowbray said:
			
		

> I s'pose Jack "Cock" Upton will make a big deal about it , though.



Because, of course, selling a paedophiles literature isn't a big deal.


----------



## charlie mowbray (Oct 25, 2005)

Cock


----------



## rednblack (Oct 25, 2005)

jackwupton said:
			
		

> Because, of course, selling a paedophiles literature isn't a big deal.



it's a mistake, but tbh it's about as big a deal as 5 trots going to an anarchist conference...


----------

