# Okasional Cafe Returns To Manchester



## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 17, 2011)

This time we are in Fallowfield, 362 Wilmslow Road, towards Withington from Owens Park Campus. Opp. Ram and Shackle pub with a ramp leading up to the door.

More here:

http://okcafe.wordpress.com/

Hope to see some of you there


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## The39thStep (Oct 18, 2011)

Menu is disappointing , what is this obsession with vegan food?


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Menu is disappointing , what is this obsession with vegan food?



Theoretically it's to be as inclusive as possible but if that were the case it would be acceptable to prepare both vegan and non-vegan dishes. In reality it's because most of the people who organise this project are vegans and as we know vegans invariably have a puritanical streak and an authoritarian one to match. Just don't tell them I said that.

But seriously, I think serving vegan food at this sort of thing is a good idea. I just don't see why it's not possible to offer both cow's milk and soy milk to go in your tea for example. Those claiming to be anarchists should realise that offering a free choice between my way or the highway is not that much like anarchism and quite a lot like, say, Stalinism.

e2a: I would in all honesty probably be vegan by now were it not for the attitude of certain vegans I have encountered.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 18, 2011)

Why vegan?

Non violent.

Non expoiltative

Sustainable

Inclusive.

Hope this helps.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 18, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Why vegan?
> 
> Non violent.
> 
> ...



Yeah, that attitude there. Sarky, holier-than-thou and patronising. Four bullet-pointed value judgements do not a cogent argument make.

If you have a go at people because of what they eat you're attacking their morality, their upbringing, their culture and, a lot of the time, their intelligence. Nothing is as black and white as you seem to think this horrendously complex issue is. Let's take sustainability for example, that's a very vague word. In terms of those who depend on animal husbandry for their livelihood, not a small number by any means, everyone giving up eating meat is not very sustainable at all. We might also stop to consider the animals, particularly those which might face extinction in a post-cheeseburger world.

I understand the necessity for humanity as a whole to eat less meat for reasons of sustainability. I also know that people do not like being preached at. You only get to choose one person's lifestyle in this world. I know that sucks when you're smarter than everyone else and with better morals to boot, but them's the rules.


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 19, 2011)

meat eaters just need to free their minds to the idea that meals dont always have to contain meat!

most non-meat eaters (like myself) dont feel the need to preach about it. I find it is meat eaters that often seem to be offended/threatened by vegetarians, vegans etc, rather than the other way round.

good luck with the cafe.


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## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2011)

Brixton Hatter said:


> *meat eaters just need to free their minds to the idea that meals dont always have to contain meat!*
> 
> most non-meat eaters (like myself) dont feel the need to preach about it. I find it is meat eaters that often seem to be offended/threatened by vegetarians, vegans etc, rather than the other way round.
> 
> good luck with the cafe.



and what better way to spark that creative mind flow than to impose a vegan menu on those who might want to support the cafe initiative and to completely marginalise such a project in worthy lifestylism.

Is there a license by the way or can you bring your own cider?


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## Brixton Hatter (Oct 19, 2011)

I've no desire to start another endless meat v veggie debate.....so here, have a smilie and a virtual cider


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## Red Storm (Oct 19, 2011)

The vegetarian curries they did at the OK Cafe in the Northern Quarter were pretty amazing. Probably the only meals (not counting breakfast) I've had in 5 years without meat in it. 

It's really not a big issue, them having vegan food only, if you want meat then just go over the road to the kebab houses


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## chilango (Oct 19, 2011)

It all depends on who the intended "audience" for the social centre is really.

If the main intention is to provide a hub for activists, sympathisers and so on and to try and draw a sympathetic periphery into the better, closer contact, then vegan food (and other counter-cultural elements) are fine. And there is nothing wrong with this. Too often there is a guilty tokenist "outreach" line on centres like these - which is often not going to happen. Sometimes, in some places, consolidation of acitivist scenes is a worthwhile objective in itself.

If however the Manchester scene is already pretty consolidated and they want to engage a wider audience, then vegan food etc is not, and should not be a priority. The overt counter-cultural tones of many social centres does (rightly or wrongly) put much of wider public off. More important, most important would be the social centre providing a space for community social, educational and self-help initiatives. I have vague memories of kids cinemas in Hulme for example being a good example of this.

With the ongoing cuts, and the retreat of the state and local authorities from many areas there is a vacuum begging to be filled by self-managed social centres.


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## The39thStep (Oct 19, 2011)

Red Storm said:


> The vegetarian curries they did at the OK Cafe in the Northern Quarter were pretty amazing. Probably the only meals (not counting breakfast) I've had in 5 years without meat in it.
> 
> It's really not a big issue, them having vegan food only, if you want meat then just go over the road to the kebab houses



With having an allotment I probably eat more veg than the veggies do. There are some amazing non meat dishes and it was only a matter of time before that  Hugh Fearnley-Whittingtsall veggie book would have an impact on anarchism in the student part of South Manchester.

Equally the vegans could just nip across the road and get a tofu burger leaving the rest of us to enjoy lamb hotpot with red cabbage.

Is it ok if I bring my Staffie with me btw?


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 19, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> Is it ok if I bring my Staffie with me btw?



At previous cafes there have been problems with troublesome dogs (or, more accurately, troublesome dog owners) but it should be fine if he's well behaved and kept on a lead.


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## kenny g (Oct 19, 2011)

If you saw the animal waste that comes out of a combine harvester you would start to question the ethics of veganism. If all species are equal it is probably most ethical to eat large animals such as whales as only one entity needs to be killed for a very large amount of protein - compared to colossal amounts of field mice for some lentils.


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## taffboy gwyrdd (Oct 19, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah, that attitude there. Sarky, holier-than-thou and patronising. Four bullet-pointed value judgements do not a cogent argument make.
> 
> If you have a go at people because of what they eat you're attacking their morality, their upbringing, their culture and, a lot of the time, their intelligence. Nothing is as black and white as you seem to think this horrendously complex issue is. Let's take sustainability for example, that's a very vague word. In terms of those who depend on animal husbandry for their livelihood, not a small number by any means, everyone giving up eating meat is not very sustainable at all. We might also stop to consider the animals, particularly those which might face extinction in a post-cheeseburger world.
> 
> I understand the necessity for humanity as a whole to eat less meat for reasons of sustainability. I also know that people do not like being preached at. You only get to choose one person's lifestyle in this world. I know that sucks when you're smarter than everyone else and with better morals to boot, but them's the rules.



No one is being attacked. Why are you imagining they are?  It's not sarky or holier than thou. I was asked the reasons for the cafe to be vegan, they are the reasons as typed in something of a hurry.

Neither is it "imposing" anything, nor do I see why it is alienating. There's just some food made. Folk can eat it or not. They can pay or not.

Seeking to portray that as "imposing" is actually imposing an unqualified impression. But many a necrofage seems to be easily angered and percieving of straight answers as an "attack", I'm quite used to it, but I do wonder why it is.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 19, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> No one is being attacked. Why are you imagining they are? It's not sarky or holier than thou. I was asked the reasons for the cafe to be vegan, they are the reasons as typed in something of a hurry.
> 
> Neither is it "imposing" anything, nor do I see why it is alienating. There's just some food made. Folk can eat it or not. They can pay or not.
> 
> Seeking to portray that as "imposing" is actually imposing an unqualified impression. But many a necrofage seems to be easily angered and percieving of straight answers as an "attack", I'm quite used to it, but I do wonder why it is.



See, I was with you up to 'necrophage' (note correct spelling). If that's not a term designed to belittle those it doesn't anger then I'm a fucking leopard seal. It's not even biologically accurate, not that someone who objects to animals eating other animals can have much of a grounding in biology.

And I'm not saying you impose your choices on anyone, only that you would if you could. If only you could make it all the way to the end of a brief post on the subject without insulting people. Frankly you're making me hungry for a baby seal sandwich right now.


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## IC3D (Oct 19, 2011)

I went a few times back in the day, really nice to hear its up and running again I would come but I live in London these days, good luck and all that tg.


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## Captain Hurrah (Oct 19, 2011)

Looking at one of the programs, only the language courses look sort of okay.  Not sure I want to juggle skittles or ride a unicycle en-route to communism, however.


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## Kidda (Oct 20, 2011)

Nice one

I hope it goes well. Wish i could pop up for a visit.

Shame you have to put up with the students at the Ram and Shackle though, it will always be 'The Drop Inn' for me, i have fond memories of that dodgy little watering hole before the student takeover.


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## Random (Oct 20, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Neither is it "imposing" anything, nor do I see why it is alienating. There's just some food made. Folk can eat it or not. They can pay or not.


 Who decides what food is made? From my involvement in past OK Cafe's I'd guess that there's be an almighty row if someone said that they wanted to also offer non-vegan food.


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## Yu_Gi_Oh (Oct 20, 2011)

.


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## The39thStep (Oct 20, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> At previous cafes there have been problems with troublesome dogs (or, more accurately, troublesome dog owners) but it should be fine if he's well behaved and kept on a lead.



She's a she Frank but thanks. I have a muzzle for her.


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## chilango (Oct 20, 2011)

Any chance of a bbq with poached game? Eco-friendly and class war. Mmm.


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## Yelkcub (Oct 20, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> See, I was with you up to 'necrophage' (note correct spelling). If that's not a term designed to belittle those it doesn't anger then I'm a fucking leopard seal.



Just so I'm clear here, are you a lepoard seal?


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## JimW (Oct 20, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Looking at one of the programs, only the language courses look sort of okay. Not sure I want to juggle skittles or ride a unicycle en-route to communism, however.


Improves hand-eye coordination and balance for later hoying of Molotovs, obviously!


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 20, 2011)

Random said:


> Who decides what food is made? From my involvement in past OK Cafe's I'd guess that there's be an almighty row if someone said that they wanted to also offer non-vegan food.



There would be an almighty row about it yes. What there would not be is a sensible discussion and an attempt to arrive at a mutually acceptable solution, despite the direct democracy principles of the organisers.

Most of the people in this country are not vegan, yet these clowns would deny those folk a say in what happens at a so-called community project. These people spend large chunks of their lives writing incredibly worthy statements about how they are actively opposed to all kinds of oppression and prejudice and yet they're more than happy to display overt prejudice against, err, most people in the world because of what they eat. It's pathetic.


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## Red Storm (Oct 20, 2011)

I just hope they have a parties in this one like they had in the Lord Nelson one.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 20, 2011)

Never mind the veganism, is there a good reason for misspelling _occasional_?


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## Random (Oct 20, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> Never mind the veganism, is there a good reason for misspelling _occasional_?


The answer lies back in the mists of Manchester activist scene lore. Iirc it's because the first one was in a squatted place that was actually called the OK Cafe.


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## Random (Oct 20, 2011)

SpookyFrank said:


> These people spend large chunks of their lives writing incredibly worthy statements about how they are actively opposed to all kinds of oppression and prejudice and yet they're more than happy to display overt prejudice against, err, most people in the world because of what they eat.


 Who wants to be tolerant of violent exploitative necrophages? Anyway, for me this isn't about food, really. It's about the attitudes that this is part of - that people need to be converted to an all-embracing lifestyle change, when ends up with allowing a handful of people into a small scene. About ten years ago iirc an ex-black panther, now anarchist, came to Manchester to do a talk and one of the crowd asked him "you say you're against the state, yet you eat meat". A few people took the idiot to task, but this sort of mindnumbingly petty attitude is one reason why anarchism is not about to become a wider social movement in the UK or north america.


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## SpookyFrank (Oct 20, 2011)

Random said:


> Who wants to be tolerant of violent exploitative necrophages? Anyway, for me this isn't about food, really. It's about the attitudes that this is part of - that people need to be converted to an all-embracing lifestyle change, when ends up with allowing a handful of people into a small scene. About ten years ago iirc an ex-black panther, now anarchist, came to Manchester to do a talk and one of the crowd asked him "you say you're against the state, yet you eat meat". A few people took the idiot to task, but this sort of mindnumbingly petty attitude is one reason why anarchism is not about to become a wider social movement in the UK or north america.



My thoughts exactly. People aren't going to bother engaging with your worldview if the first thing you do when they walk in is to hand them a flyer explaining to them in friendly bullet points why their lifestyle is evil and wrong.


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## Kidda (Oct 20, 2011)

Random said:


> Who wants to be tolerant of violent exploitative necrophages? Anyway, for me this isn't about food, really. It's about the attitudes that this is part of - that people need to be converted to an all-embracing lifestyle change, when ends up with allowing a handful of people into a small scene. About ten years ago iirc an ex-black panther, now anarchist, came to Manchester to do a talk and one of the crowd asked him "you say you're against the state, yet you eat meat". A few people took the idiot to task, but this sort of mindnumbingly petty attitude is one reason why anarchism is not about to become a wider social movement in the UK or north america.



I agree with that (longtime no see btw, hope your well  ) 

another part of it surely is that its a lot easier to feed more people if everyone is included. Vegan food can be fed to everyone, but food that contains meat would mean other meals having to be cooked to include those who couldn't.

That said there is never an excuse for Soya milk, that nasty shit should be left in the skip.


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## danny la rouge (Oct 20, 2011)

Random said:


> The answer lies back in the mists of Manchester activist scene lore. Iirc it's because the first one was in a squatted place that was actually called the OK Cafe.


There's nothing wrong with a good pun.


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## Captain Hurrah (Oct 20, 2011)

Random said:


> Who wants to be tolerant of violent exploitative necrophages? Anyway, for me this isn't about food, really. It's about the attitudes that this is part of - that people need to be converted to an all-embracing lifestyle change, when ends up with allowing a handful of people into a small scene. About ten years ago iirc an ex-black panther, now anarchist, came to Manchester to do a talk and one of the crowd asked him "you say you're against the state, yet you eat meat". A few people took the idiot to task, but this sort of mindnumbingly petty attitude is one reason why anarchism is not about to become a wider social movement in the UK or north america.



Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin?  I read a blog post of his years ago, in which he ranted about middle class college kids putting working class people off being interested in anarchism in the United States.  One of the gripes he had was vegans.


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## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2011)

There doesn't seem to be much on for girls in that programme either


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## stethoscope (Oct 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> There doesn't seem to be much on for girls in that programme either


'girls'?

And what things in particular do you have in mind in the programme especially for us?


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## danny la rouge (Oct 21, 2011)

stephj said:


> 'girls'?
> 
> And what things in particular do you have in mind in the programme especially for us?


Well, you presumably already know how to use sewing machines and cook Greek food.  So maybe motorcycle maintenance, or a putting the bins out workshop.


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## stethoscope (Oct 21, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> Well, you presumably already know how to use sewing machines and cook Greek food. So maybe motorcycle maintenance, or a putting the bins out workshop.



I can't do any of those. I'd rather learn how to make molotov cocktails and violently overthrow the state.

After some juggling practise obviously.


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## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2011)

stephj said:


> 'girls'?
> 
> And what things in particular do you have in mind in the programme especially for us?



I am not on the committee steph.


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## past caring (Oct 21, 2011)

There's not any more for boys, either, tbf. "Acrobatics and juggling skills" ffs - what the fuck is wrong with a good old game of "war"? Though I suppose one of them juggling skittles might, in a pinch, make do as a useful cosh.


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## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2011)

Someone might bring in a Wii. I think Monty's social spaces had a fuller programme and were licensed.


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## The39thStep (Oct 21, 2011)

This imo sets the benchmark for occupied social spaces:



> Beyond the Future
> 
> A carnival of resistance and revolution
> 
> ...


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## LLETSA (Oct 21, 2011)

Random said:


> Who decides what food is made? From my involvement in past OK Cafe's I'd guess that there's be an almighty row if someone said that they wanted to also offer non-vegan food.


 
I think we have a clue here as to why these things never get anywhere.


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## LLETSA (Oct 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> This imo sets the benchmark for occupied social spaces:



'Beyond the future is about reaching out to the wider community and breaking out of the ghetto, it’s about a coming together of rebels, activists, youth, squatters, the precarious, the disobedient, the disaffected, the disempowered, the disordinate and the dismembered. In every generation there are those who refuse, those who resist, those who carry the seed of a new world in their hearts. We will be making links and tearing down fences, taking our dreams for reality and demanding the impossible. A fair trade café will run throughout the day.'

Is it only me who feels a little queasy about the prospect of getting together with the dismembered?

Never seen the sense in demanding the impossible either, although I suppose some people enjoy chasing their tails.


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## LLETSA (Oct 21, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Lorenzo Kom'boa Ervin? I read a blog post of his years ago, in which he ranted about middle class college kids putting working class people off being interested in anarchism in the United States. One of the gripes he had was vegans.


 
I think the vegans might be the least of the problem actually.


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## chilango (Oct 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> This imo sets the benchmark for occupied social spaces:



Where's this from?


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## Kidda (Oct 21, 2011)

The39thStep said:


> This imo sets the benchmark for occupied social spaces:


LOL
_
_
_''14.15-14.30 - Break for wacky, spontaneous, surrealist art intervention by two Italian indymedia activists_ ''

15 minutes isn't long enough for a break. This is why shit never got done.
The revolution demands proper break times!!!!


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## Captain Hurrah (Oct 21, 2011)

LLETSA said:


> I think the vegans might be the least of the problem actually.



Possibly.  I think it's a load of bollocks myself.


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## emanymton (Oct 21, 2011)

Kidda said:


> another part of it surely is that its a lot easier to feed more people if everyone is included. Vegan food can be fed to everyone, but food that contains meat would mean other meals having to be cooked to include those who couldn't.


Bah the Bolton Socialist Club (shit website BTW) manages a meant dish and a vegetarian dish!! Admitadly it only serves food for about 3 hours on a Saturday.


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## Gmart (Oct 23, 2011)

I remember much fun with this - we took over the Hacienda just before it got flattened and built on - amazing building


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## Random (Oct 25, 2011)

chilango said:


> Where's this from?


Apparently written by someone from North Wales. Or a yank, judging by the way they use 'protest'.


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