# Brixton's trams: archive photos and the underground station that never was



## editor (Oct 28, 2007)

http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/c/croydon_tramlink1950/tramlink_subway_brixton.jpg

Proposed in 1950, central Brixton was to get a substantial underground tram station, underneath the Brixton Road junction with Acre Lane and Coldharbour Lane.

It was to be part of a rapid transit tramway from Purley and Croydon to Brixton and Kennington.

"Twin-coach trains would be made up of long single-deck carriages (rail coaches) with a high power-to-weight ratio and rapid acceleration. Plenty of space would be provided for standing passengers, whilst resilient rubber wheels would reduce noise. Grass and flower borders would help make the reserved track sections more attractive and neat fencing would ensure pedestrians did not stray into the path of high-speed trams"

More: http://www.subbrit.org.uk/sb-sites/sites/c/croydon_tramlink1950/index.shtml


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## Skim (Oct 28, 2007)

Makes me think of the Robyn Hitchcock song:

Trams of Old London
Taking my baby into the past
And its trams of Old London
Blow my mind

Ludgate, Fenchurch, Highgate Hill
Rolling slowly up there still, uh huh
Waterloo and Clerkenwell
Up to Aldgate East as well, uh huh

On a clear night you can see
Where the rails used to be
Oh, it seems like ancient myth
They once ran to Hammersmith

Trams of Old London
Taking my baby into the past
And its trams of Old London
Blow my mind

Through Electric Avenue
Brixton Down and South-West Two, uh huh
Teddington and Kennington
Twickenham and Paddington, uh huh

In the Blitz they never closed
Though they blew up half the roads
Oh, it hurts me just to see 'em
Going dead in a museum

Trams of Old London
Taking my baby into the past
And its trams of Old London
Blow my mind
Trams of Old London
Taking my baby into the past
And its trams of Old London
Blow my mind


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## davesgcr (Oct 28, 2007)

If only ! What a lost opportunity.

The old LCC tram system was dead in the water by the late 1930's and starved of capital investiment - though only the war kept it going (and that with minimal maintenance).....this must have been part of the great Abercrombie town planning report - which the bitter reality of austerity Britain resulted in not a lot happening - the Victoria line for example didnt get completed till 1971 and we are still waiting for some of the other lines proposed.!

There is a good PhD here for some committed soul.


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## strung out (Oct 28, 2007)

picture doesnt work by the way!


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## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

I've grown a bit fascinated with Brixton's old tram network and have posted up a few 'then and now' shots here, with some articles to follow later.

It must have been well cool to trundle through Brixton on a tram....
http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-trams.html


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## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Well, it may not have captured the imagination of you lot, but the tram history section continues to grow and now has its own homepage!

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-trams-history.html


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, it may not have captured the imagination of you lot, but the tram history section continues to grow and now has its own homepage!
> 
> http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-trams-history.html


 

I like your tram pictures but I thought I'd seen them before


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## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> I like your tram pictures but I thought I'd seen them before


The first four pages of links are all newly scanned, as is the tram map!

More to come.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 29, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> The first four pages of links are all newly scanned, as is the tram map!
> 
> More to come.


 

oh right

*goes to check there's a Brixton Hill tram there*


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 29, 2007)

tsk tsk


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## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Minnie_the_Minx said:
			
		

> tsk tsk


Oy! Myopic one! Give me time.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 29, 2007)

the clock's ticking


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## editor (Oct 29, 2007)

Done! A 6 mile underground cable! They were damn clever those Victorians. 

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-hill-tram.html


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 29, 2007)

Those horses in the first picture look like they're really giving it some welly


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## Winot (Oct 29, 2007)

Bugger - I missed the Bon Marche "Remnants Oddments" sale.


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## teuchter (Oct 30, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Well, it may not have captured the imagination of you lot, but the tram history section continues to grow and now has its own homepage!
> 
> http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-trams-history.html



I have been enjoying the tram history section.

Particularly the bit about the cable tram going up Brixton Hill, San Fransisco style. Someone was telling me about the SF one the other day, and how they have to constantly patch in new strands of wire because the constant grabbing on/letting go of the tram cars tends to wear it down rather quickly.

I like the fact that all the "after" photos are taken on the most miserable day possible in the style of those "before and after" dieting adverts...


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## Gixxer1000 (Oct 30, 2007)

Interestingly the proposals are completely different to the current tram scheme.


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## Gixxer1000 (Oct 30, 2007)

strung_out said:
			
		

> picture doesnt work by the way!



Yeah, naughty


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 31, 2007)




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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

Amazing that the tram tracks are all still in place!






*1912* Sitting at the top of Brixton Hill opposite Telford Avenue is the London County Council tram depot, designed by London County Council Tramways' architect G. Topham Forest. 

Built in 1905, the depot had a capacity of 30 trams which replaced the cable-driven cars which had hauled trams from Kennington Junction up Brixton hill to Streatham hill from 1891. Read more here: Brixton Hill cable tram. 
(pic: Lambeth Archives)






*Aug 2009 * The depot remained in use until the last tram ran in 1951. The site has since been redeveloped as Brixton Hill bus garage, with the exterior looking in a rather forlorn state in this August 2009 view.





Entrance to the tram depot.





Looking inside the depot. Even though it's been over fifty years since the last tram left the depot, the tram tracks remain in place and look in excellent condition. 





Detail of the tram tracks.

More info: History of Brixton trams, horse drawn trams and cable cars.

http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/brixton-hill-tram-depot.html


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2009)

You should get a picture at night, about 11:30pm when it's full of buses. It looks pretty cool. (I might wander round one night this week, it's at the end of my road)


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## Crispy (Aug 3, 2009)

It's two different buildings  - look at the brick detailing, the angled walls, the lack of stone cornices and arches.


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It's two different buildings  - look at the brick detailing, the angled walls, the lack of stone cornices and arches.


 
Could be, or is it possible they knocked the right hand side down?


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## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2009)

Yeah, Crispy's correct, one is further down the road. Both on the same side but different buildings.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It's two different buildings  - look at the brick detailing, the angled walls, the lack of stone cornices and arches.


I'm a bit confused by that too, but those tram tracks date it to pre-1950. There was another bus depot further along but that looked even less like the original  (mind you, I was pedalling along at speed so I may have missed it).


Kanda said:


> You should get a picture at night, about 11:30pm when it's full of buses. It looks pretty cool. (I might wander round one night this week, it's at the end of my road)


That would be an ace addition to the page! If you get chance could you snap the other depot?


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## Crispy (Aug 3, 2009)

Here's the yellow brick one: 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...45853,-0.123929&spn=0.00229,0.005418&t=k&z=18

The major bus depot is further up the hill, on Streatham Hill proper. It's a concrete building completely replacing the old brick and stone one. This is the site of the cable tram depot, opposite Telford Avenue as per the cable tram history page.

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...42406,-0.123526&spn=0.00229,0.005418&t=k&z=18

The yellow brick building must have been for the electric trams that replaced the cable system.


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2009)

editor said:


> That would be an ace addition to the page! If you get chance could you snap the *other depot*?


 
Streatham Bus Garage?


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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Streatham Bus Garage?


Yes please!

Cheers for the update Crispy: I've now reworded the caption to say, "The building above has now been demolished and rebuilt as Streatham Bus Garage,  but this original LCC Tramways building a little further down the road towards  Brixton survives."

I can't find any archive photos of the tram depot I photographed which is a bit frustrating. It was built in 1923.


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2009)

Will do.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Will do.


Cheers fella. If you can find a view remotely similar to the archive one, that would be grand.


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## newbie (Aug 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Here's the yellow brick one:
> 
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...45853,-0.123929&spn=0.00229,0.005418&t=k&z=18



that's the big church on Christchurch Road, opposite the end of Palace Rd. 

mind you that's probably an artefact of google maps, which has become almost impossible to use since streetview.


try this
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=51....06,-0.12411&spn=0.00062,0.001742&z=20&iwloc=A


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 3, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It's two different buildings



Indeed.

The top photo (marked "Streatham Hill" but generally known as either Streatham or "Telford Avenue" depot) was completely demolished, and a new bus garage built on the site in 1951, the bus garage is still in use, as Arriva's Brixton garage (east side of Streatham Hill, opposite junction of Telford Avenue) - it was re-named "Brixton" in 1951 to avoid confusion with the existing Streatham Bus Garage (see later).

recent-ish photo here - http://s0.geograph.org.uk/photos/02/90/029051_17f32e3d.jpg

The second photo (the surviving building) was "Brixton Hill" tram depot which was (operationally) an annexe of Telford Avenue.  It was not needed for buses in the 50s, but was brought back into (bus related) use in recent years after being used for other purposes.

Historic photos of Brixton Hill depot at - http://www.tramway.co.uk/smx/photos/photo/?id=11275 and http://www.tramway.co.uk/smx/photos/photo/?id=11384

Streatham bus garage is neither of these two - it is / was on the west side of Streatham Hill, near the junction of Natal Road, and is now (I believe) used as a go-karting track (although part of the land is still used as a bus terminus.)  This building dates from the early 80s, and is on the site of an earlier (London General) bus garage.  Unfortunately, the optimism of the early-mid 80s that led to a number of bus garages being rebuilt or refurbished didn't last, and the cuts of the later 80s saw the (modern) garage closed.

recent photo here - http://assets1.qypecdn.net/uploads/photos/0024/7157/10651565_gallery.jpg?27767

There is an excellent book (I believe out of print now) titled "The Wheels Used to Talk to Us" - the reminiscences of a tram (later bus) driver who was based at Clapham and Telford Avenue depots from the 20s to the 60s, which contains a lot of pictures of the area from the cable tram days onwards.

Plenty more London tram photos at http://www.londontramways.net/index.php and http://www.tramway.co.uk/smx/photos/


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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

Puddy_Tat said:


> The second photo (the surviving building) was "Brixton Hill" tram depot which was (operationally) an annexe of Telford Avenue.  It was not needed for buses in the 50s, but was brought back into (bus related) use in recent years after being used for other purposes.


That's great - thanks. I'll update the article.


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## lang rabbie (Aug 3, 2009)

editor said:


> Yes please!
> 
> Cheers for the update Crispy: I've now reworded the caption to say, "The building above has now been demolished and rebuilt as Streatham Bus Garage,  but this original LCC Tramways building a little further down the road towards  Brixton survives."



Still wrong!

The bus garage on Streatham Hill opposite Telford Avenue is *Brixton Bus Garage*.  For years, people heading out of Brixton heading for Streatham Hill were confused by this, and stood at the bus stops by the tube while buses to Streatham Hill sailed past with misleading destination boards saying Brixton Garage.  

London Buses finally renamed the bus stop (and terminating point for bus routes) as Telford Avenue only about eight or nine years ago.

*Streatham Bus Garage* was next to Streatham Ice Rink (having been closed down following the privatisation of London Buses, the building is currently a Go-Kart track while waiting for Tesco to get their finger out with the "Streatham Hub" redevelopment)

The *Brixton Hill tramway depot *building was not used as a bus garage after the end of tram services.  It was occupied by Stratstone Garages, who created the now overgrown garden outside.   It was bought back by London Buses about five years ago (?) following the increase of bus services in the first Livingstone mayorship to provide the extra bus berthing capacity lost because of the sale of Streatham Bus Garage.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Aug 3, 2009)

Kanda said:


> Streatham Bus Garage?



Streatham Bus Garage is at the far end of Streatham isn't it, near the Go-Karting place


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## editor (Aug 3, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> Still wrong!
> 
> The bus garage on Streatham Hill opposite Telford Avenue is *Brixton Bus Garage*.  For years, people heading out of Brixton heading for Streatham Hill were confused by this, and stood at the bus stops by the tube while buses to Streatham Hill sailed past with misleading destination boards saying Brixton Garage.
> 
> ...


I'd actually corrected the page before you posted this, but there's some useful info in there, so I'll update it yet again.

This is hard work - but thanks very much for everyone's input!


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## lang rabbie (Aug 3, 2009)

There were tram tracks visible in the pavement surface outside the tramshed until very recently - when did those brick pavers get laid 

The Brixton Hill shed was apparently built to house "tram trailers" drawn behind a regular tram - but had only just been completed in 1923 when they were withdrawn from service.    Was there some horrific accident involving one in the mid/late 20s that meant a loss or public confidence?

http://www.brixtonsociety.org.uk/trams.htm


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## newbie (Aug 3, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> There were tram tracks visible in the pavement surface outside the tramshed until very recently - when did those brick pavers get laid




don't know, but (as elsewhere in London) there are still LCC Tramways manhole covers on the west pavement on Brixton Hill.


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 3, 2009)

lang rabbie said:


> Was there some horrific accident involving one in the mid/late 20s that meant a loss or public confidence?



Not that i am aware of.  the trailers had a number of drawbacks - 

the additional weight of pulling one meant that the tram (and any conventional trams behind it) could not travel as quickly

the trailers were open-top, which was less passenger-friendly (at this time, the LCC Tramways were pretty much in competition with the buses, and were able to use 'all enclosed' as a selling point before the buses could - buses improved considerably between 1913 when trailer trams first saw the light of day and 1922/3 when the decision was made to get rid of them)

they were a bit of a pain in the tail at terminus points, as (with a few exceptions) most London tram terminals involved a dead-end with the tram reversing and going back rather than going round a loop.  with a conventional tram (that's exactly the same at each end) a 'reverse' is quite simple, but less so if there's a trailer in the way.  Even on routes (like Embankment - Tooting) where there was a loop at each end, a trailer set would have been more difficult to turn back if there was an obstruction / problem.

http://www.londontramways.net/search/tram_picsview.php?pic_id=26653 has a picture of a tram / trailer set - somewhere on the Tooting - Embankment route.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I'd actually corrected the page before you posted this, but there's some useful info in there, so I'll update it yet again.
> 
> This is hard work - but thanks very much for everyone's input!


 

You might have to update your picture page Editor in light of tonight's fire


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## Mrs Magpie (Feb 19, 2011)

....a song commemorating the last tram, 1952.


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## teuchter (Feb 19, 2011)

I recently discovered there used to be a tram depot at Loughborough Junction... it's gone and been replaced with housing now but the street is still called "Tram Close"...

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...1.464188,-0.101506&spn=0.004258,0.010353&z=17


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## lang rabbie (Feb 19, 2011)

teuchter said:


> I recently discovered there used to be a tram depot at Loughborough Junction... it's gone and been replaced with housing now but the street is still called "Tram Close"...
> 
> http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&s...1.464188,-0.101506&spn=0.004258,0.010353&z=17


 
The Google pin is in the wrong place - Tram Close is off Hinton Road opposite the junction with Wanless Road

BTW I'm not sure the Tram Close site was a tram depot - I think that number 48 trams (normal destination West Norwood) were sometimes turned there around the one way tram line loop that used to run around the Wanless Road block


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## Puddy_Tat (Feb 20, 2011)

lang rabbie said:


> BTW I'm not sure the Tram Close site was a tram depot


 
Hmm.  Certainly not a depot in electric tram days (i.e. after 1908/9). 

The Norwood routes ran from Norwood Tram Depot, not to be confused with Arriva's Norwood bus garage which is a different building on a site that always was a bus garage.  Assuming it's not been demolished since Google Maps last updated, Norwood Tram depot appears now to be Access Self Storage, here - Norwood tram depot was never converted to be a bus garage, the allocation moving to the (then new) Stockwell garage when it opened.

The definitive history of the LCC Tramways has a section on the London Southern Tramways company, and refers to the company renting a number of railway arches from the LBSC Railway "at or near Cold Harbour Lane" as a secondary stables for sick horses, a granary and works.  The actual location is not identified, and this could well be the Hinton Road site.

Not every "tram" related building was a tram depot - the "Tram Shed" theatre in Woolwich was an electrical sub station...

</anorak>


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## teuchter (Feb 20, 2011)

You're probably right about the depot Lang Rabbie - I'm now trying to remember how I got it into my head that there was one there. I've got a 1914 map of the area - thought I'd seen it on there but I've just checked and frustratingly it's just off the edge of the map.


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## davesgcr (Feb 21, 2011)

Have you read Stan Collins' book "The Wheels used to talk to us" ? - the definitive social and economic history of Brixton and South London trams -

I have a much treasured copy  

Totally and utter superb - bought 25 years ago in the LT shop.


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## lordnoise (Feb 21, 2011)

Quick - pre-loved  but only £9.49 on Amazon !


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## lang rabbie (Feb 22, 2011)

teuchter said:


> You're probably right about the depot Lang Rabbie - I'm now trying to remember how I got it into my head that there was one there. I've got a 1914 map of the area - thought I'd seen it on there but I've just checked and frustratingly it's just off the edge of the map.


 
Just found my copy of the 1913 Brixton & Herne Hill map.  Looks as though I was slightly wrong - there were twin tram lines along Wanless Road and Herne Hill Road which then narrowed to single track for short stretch when they turned south into Milkwood Road.

According to the Herne Hill Society, the lower level rail bridge on Hinton Road had insufficient clearance to get a double decker tram under it so the route was changed. 



> Regular horse-tram services had arrived in Herne Hill in 1884. From Loughborough Junction, trams passed under the railway bridge at Hinton Road and along the length of Milkwood Road. Electrification and double-decker trams came in the early 1900s when the London County Council took over the service. The bridge over Hinton Road was too low; and part of Milkwood Road was too narrow to take two tram lines. The route one way was changed to Herne Hill Road, Wanless, Poplar and Lowden Roads, then taking the old route via Milkwood Road to Herne Hill station and Norwood. The trams were phased out in the 1930s in favour of buses.



So who suggested the name for the new Close???


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## editor (Feb 22, 2011)

Here's a pic of a tram on Milkwood Road:







http://www.urban75.org/brixton/history/milkwood.html


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## lang rabbie (Feb 22, 2011)

That must be the southern end though, with that northbound tram heading up the rest of Milkwood Road and you can see the southbound lines coming from the Lowden Road/Poplar Walk Road (now Poplar Road to avoid confusion with Poplar Walk!)  loop.   

Looking at the 1913 map, the one way working bit was a bit further south than I thought.


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## teuchter (Feb 22, 2011)

I've got a 1950 map of "Tram and Trolleybus" routes... here's the Brixton bit of it -


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 23, 2011)

Thread bump - there's another couple of transport related sites you might like to add sometime

Firstly, the Effra Road ticket / printing works (now site of the retail park at 51-53 Effra Road - Currys / Halfords)

Opened in 1928 by the London County Council tramways, the works was responsible for printing many of the tickets issued on London's trams and trolleybuses, making ticket rolls post 1950s, assorted printing tasks, and the maintenance of tram / bus ticket punches and machines.  The works superintendent from its early days into the 50s was Mr George Gibson, who designed and developed the 'Gibson' ticket machine.  The early prototypes were made at Effra Road, but production was at Tring, Herts.

The works was rebuilt post-war following air raid damage, and closed during the privatisations of the mid 80s.

I can't find photos of the building from the outside on either Lambeth or LT Museum website, but pictures of the works in action include this, this, this, this (described as 'Stockwell')

Secondly, the Waterworks Road garage which was the London General Omnibus Company's base for private hire coaches.  Opened in 1927, and closed in 1937 when the private hire fleet was moved to Old Kent Road garage instead.  

Building in 1936 - and today (or whenever Street View last updated)


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 25, 2011)

Also, going back to the cable trams - will this thread stretch as far as Kennington? (the northern end of the cable tram section - the traditional horses were used between Kennington and either Westminster or Blackfriars Bridge)

If so, the site at 20 Brixton Road, Kennington, is worth a mention.

This was (in cable tram days) a small depot (for one or two trams), stables, and office, as well as housing cable tensioning equipment. (described as having a central arch for the tram, an entrance for horses on one side of the centre, and an entrance for staff on the other)

At electrification, there was an electrical sub-station on the site, which was taken out of use in 1912 when a larger sub-station at Vauxhall was taken into use.

1912 picture on Lambeth 'Landmark' web page here

Today, the building is an Italian Catholic Mission Centre - Streetview image here

The history of the LCC tramways lists the sub-station as "20 Brixton Road, Brixton" and does not make any connection with the cable car depot, but I think the 1912 postcard demolishes that.

It is not entirely clear whether the current building was the cable car depot, whether it was a re-construction of it, or was built on the site of it.  I can't find any photos of the cable car depot as such (i suppose you can't expect too much for pre-1903) but the written description seems to match the current building fairly well.

The "Cable Restaurant & Snack Bar" at 8 Brixton Road commemorates the operation (when I worked in Kennington in 1986/7 and occasionally lunched there, it seemed to be the unofficial canteen for bus crews on the 3 and 159 routes based at Camberwell garage but having their breaks at Kennington.  And the unofficial office for the bus inspector)


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> 1912 picture on Lambeth 'Landmark' web page here
> 
> Today, the building is an Italian Catholic Mission Centre[/URL]



Chiesa del Redentore


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 25, 2011)

It's a church, rather than a 'mission centre' isn't it? I certainly know Italians in the area who go to mass there and there's not a whiff of the missionary about them.


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## Onket (Jul 25, 2011)

Cheers for that. I used to live just near(ish) to there.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 25, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Firstly, the Effra Road ticket / printing works ....



I think I have dropped a bollock - from further reading (it was that sort of weekend, and insomnia does this sort of thing) there were 2 sites in Brixton, Effra Road was the printing works, and Stockwell Road (hence the reference to Stockwell - can't find an actual address yet) was the ticket punch / machine works

From what I can gather, both got combined at Effra Road in the mid 50s - presumably when the latter was rebuilt after war damage.

More to follow if I can find it.



Mrs Magpie said:


> It's a church, rather than a 'mission centre' isn't it? I certainly know Italians in the area who go to mass there and there's not a whiff of the missionary about them.



I think it's "mission" in the sense of being an outpost abroad presumably staffed by Priests seconded from Italy, rather than "missionary" as in going out and trying to convert people.  I've used the description used on Lambeth Council's website and elsewhere.  

From what I can gather, yes there is a church / chapel within the building (I'm not quite sure what the difference is) as well as other functions (meeting rooms etc) in the building.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 25, 2011)

I know a lot of Italians who came here in the 1950s and they see it as their church.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 25, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> I know a lot of Italians who came here in the 1950s and they see it as their church.



Do you know how long it's been a church ?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2011)

I was expecting you to be impressed with my Chiesa del Redentore Puddy Tat


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 25, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Do you know how long it's been a church ?


I don't but they were so proud of having built it themselves (not the outer shell, but the interior). They used to have local businesses but are mostly retired now


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 25, 2011)

Minnie_the_Minx said:


> I was expecting you to be impressed with my Chiesa del Redentore Puddy Tat





sorry - my knowledge of italian (other than what i'd find on a menu) is very limited...


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 25, 2011)

It means Church of the Redeemer.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 25, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> sorry - my knowledge of italian (other than what i'd find on a menu) is very limited...


 


Mrs Magpie said:


> It means Church of the Redeemer.


 
I speak no Italian either but used to pass it every day for years on my way to work and see the words up there and wonder what they meant, 'til I googled it one day


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## T & P (Jul 25, 2011)

Question for the train buffs: as I understand it, trains don't like hills and anything bigger than 2% can prove problematic. Is it the same with trams? Only asking because I'd imagine sections of Brixton Hill must have a higher incline than 2%... Or perhpas trams use the power cable for extra grip?


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 26, 2011)

from Wiki



> From 1891 until the 1950s Brixton Hill was served by a regular London tram service; it was cable-drawn until 1904 when it was replaced by a conventional electric tram.[1] The tram depot at Streatham Hill, opposite Telford Avenue, housed the tram cars, horses and the steam powered winding gear for the cable. It is now a bus depot. Another tram depot remains intact at the top of Brixton Hill. This was designed by London County Council Tramways' architect G. Topham Forest, had a capacity of 30 trams[2] and can still be seen on the Brixton side of Christchurch Road, with tram rails flowing under the entrance gates.


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Jul 26, 2011)

More



> Brixton Hill was really too steep for two horses to pull a tramful of passengers so an Act of Parliament was obtained in 1890 to enable the London Tramways Company (the new name the Metropolitan Street Tramways Company had acquired after an amalgamation) to construct a cable line. This would replace the horse tram service from Kennington to Brixton Water Lane and would continue to the top of Brixton Hill at Telford Avenue. Cable traction was already in operation (and still is) in San Fransisco; it was first used in this country on Highgate Hill, North London, in 1884. The cable consisted of strands of steel wire wound round a rope, about an inch in diameter. It was nearly six miles long. That is, twice the length of the route. It ran underground between the tram lines through a concrete conduit which had a small open slot along the rope so that the cable could be gripped by the mechanism on the small man-operated tractor or "gripper" car; it was this car that pulled the passenger tramcar. A tramcar going from Brixton Hill to Westminster Bridge would have its gripper car detached at Kennington and replaced by a pair of horses; passengers remained in their seats. The cable moved all the time at a maximum speed of 8 m.p.h. A special depot was built on Streatham Hill opposite Telford Avenue to house not only cars and horses but the steam powered winding gear for the cable. The cable service started to operate in December 1892. In 1894 yet another Act was obtained - to extend the cable southwards to the Tate Library in Streatham High Road; this section was in use by the end of 1895. Cable cars ran until 1904.


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 26, 2011)

T & P said:


> Question for the train buffs: as I understand it, trains don't like hills and anything bigger than 2% can prove problematic. Is it the same with trams? Only asking because I'd imagine sections of Brixton Hill must have a higher incline than 2%... Or perhpas trams use the power cable for extra grip?


 
I think it's as much to do with power and braking power as much as grip.

Some of the gradients on the Docklands Light Railway (the bit where it's pretending to be a roller-coaster round Poplar) are a damn sight steeper than anything you'd find on a conventional railway.

Brixton Hill and Highgate Hill (London's other cable tramway) were too steep for horse trams, but electric trams managed, electric trams also ran on Dog Kennel Hill in Dulwich , and up Anerley Hill to Crystal Palace (not to mention hills in other parts of the UK and elsewhere)

Brixton Hill was probably less severe than Dog Kennel Hill (1 in 10 at its steepest - does this equate to 10%? I've never quite got the hang of expressing gradients in percentages to be honest.) - the latter was constructed 4 tracks wide (hence the road being much wider than most of a similar era) as two trams were not allowed on the same track in case one ran away - accident report here.  

The electric trams used on Highgate and Dog Kennel Hill were required to have special braking systems, I think the Anerley Hill ones did as well.  Those on Brixton Hill were standard.  More on Dog Kennel Hill here


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 26, 2011)

Ooh, the Brixton Hill Funicular Railway has a nice ring to it, don't you think? It could run all the way from the Italian Church!


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## T & P (Jul 26, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I think it's as much to do with power and braking power as much as grip.
> 
> Some of the gradients on the Docklands Light Railway (the bit where it's pretending to be a roller-coaster round Poplar) are a damn sight steeper than anything you'd find on a conventional railway.
> 
> ...


 Thanks


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## newbie (Jul 29, 2011)

Just for completeness, these are still in places along the route, but if anyone ever finds one marked up as London Tramways Company or Metropolitan Street Tramways Company please let me know


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## agricola (Jul 29, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> It is not entirely clear whether the current building was the cable car depot, whether it was a re-construction of it, or was built on the site of it.  I can't find any photos of the cable car depot as such (i suppose you can't expect too much for pre-1903) but the written description seems to match the current building fairly well.


 
That has to be a new building at 20 Brixton Road, the central door doesnt look anywhere near big enough for one of the cable trams - at least according to this picture (from here):


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## Puddy_Tat (Jul 29, 2011)

newbie said:


> Just for completeness, these are still in places along the route, but if anyone ever finds one marked up as London Tramways Company or Metropolitan Street Tramways Company please let me know



There are also a fair few around stamped "London Transport"

I am pretty sure these were for access to the electric supply cables, so I don't think you'd find any from pre-LCC operators.



agricola said:


> That has to be a new building at 20 Brixton Road, the central door doesnt look anywhere near big enough for one of the cable trams - at least according to this picture



You may well be right there - unless they only kept a gripper / dummy there and not the passenger trailer (the earlier method of operation) as per this


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## agricola (Jul 29, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> You may well be right there - unless they only kept a gripper / dummy there and not the passenger trailer (the earlier method of operation) as per this


 
Perhaps.  Actually, if you zoom out a bit from streetview it looks as if the church front is part of a facade - there is what looks to be part of an older building on a different alignment (more north-south than the front is, parallel with the back of 18 Brixton Road) inbetween the newer front and the large structure (the one with what looks like a skylight running along it and the weird angled back wall) at the rear.


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## newbie (Jul 29, 2011)

Puddy_Tat said:


> There are also a fair few around stamped "London Transport"
> 
> I am pretty sure these were for access to the electric supply cables, so I don't think you'd find any from pre-LCC operators.


 
you're probably right but I like the history we walk on every day and if it's there I'd like to see it.

If the dates quoted are correct the Brixton Hill tram started in 1891, a couple of years after the LCC replaced the Metropolitan Board of Works, so the chances of any pre-LCC artifacts of any sort are pretty slim.


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## lang rabbie (Jul 29, 2011)

Does anyone have the Godfrey Edition old Ordnance Survey map of Kennington & Walworth (sheet 89)?  Comparison of the 1894 and 1914 versions should show whether there were ever tram tracks into the the "substation" site at 20 Brixton Road.

Infuriatingly it just a bit too far north to be on the Camberwell & Stockwell sheet


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## Puddy_Tat (Aug 1, 2011)

lang rabbie said:


> Comparison of the 1894 and 1914 versions should show whether there were ever tram tracks into the the "substation" site at 20 Brixton Road.



There's a drawing in the (detailed) history of the LCC tramways that shows tram-tracks (single track from the south) into the 20 Brixton Road site.

We're pretty sure the site was a depot, but not whether the building that's still there was.



newbie said:


> you're probably right but I like the history we walk on every day and if it's there I'd like to see it.



Another faint memory occurred to me - there's another chunk of tramway history visible just up the road on the corner of Prima Road - this - the cast-iron black box thing with the London Transport logo on it is (or was) a "section box" or "feeder box" - the main purpose of these was to contain switches / fuses for each length of tram line.  

The bit at the top contained a telephone on LT's private network, for the use of either the point inspector, or in emergency by tram crews (since you can't shove a broken down tram to the side of the road and let others pass it, getting the message saying 'help' through to control is a matter of some urgency, especially if there's more than one tram a minute...)


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## newbie (Aug 1, 2011)

cheers for that, I've been past it a million times, I'll actually _look_ at it next time.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 29, 2014)

thread bump...

as is the way on the interweb, having thought I'd got as far as I could on 20 Brixton Road, I found the cable car guy website earlier.

Includes this piece on the Brixton Hill cable tramway

and this picture of the change from horse to cable operation being carried out outside 20 Brixton Road






so I think we can be fairly confident that the current frontage is largely original.

I have also found a reference in the definitive history of LCC Tramways (E R Oakley, 1989) to 3 'gripper dummy' cars being allocated to the 20 Brixton Road depot on take over by the LCC.


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## SarfLondoner (May 29, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> thread bump...
> 
> as is the way on the interweb, having thought I'd got as far as I could on 20 Brixton Road, I found the cable car guy website earlier.
> 
> ...


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## editor (Oct 30, 2015)

Just added this piece on Buzz:

Brixton history: trams and buses and the abandoned Brixton underground tram station scheme






*threads merged


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