# Do you have a job which doesn't make you feel alienated and depressed?



## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

If so, what job is it?


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## chilango (Nov 13, 2015)

No. No I don't.


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 13, 2015)

Some of the time.


(FE Teacher, There is a camaraderie of sorts among us on the front line.)


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## wayward bob (Nov 13, 2015)

yes. i have a years "incubation space" residency at the art school i graduated from this year. studio space, business support and mentoring, helping us to set up as practising artists and/or makers. i've no idea how viable it is to make a living but i'm giving it my best shot and i've already had a load of opportunities i wouldn't otherwise have had. i'm pretty much unemployable except working for myself...


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes. Self Employed HR consultant. Get to choose my hours and my clients. I love organisational change as well.


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## 8ball (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> Yes. Self Employed HR consultant. Get to choose my hours and my clients. I love organisational change as well.


 
Some people would seem to be completely immune to alienation.


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## Treacle Toes (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes, I work for an anti-poverty charity but thankfully a small one that has a good culture of walking their talk. It's not perfect but I seriously lucked out getting a job here and I try to remember that when the drudge of routine and the SHEER weight of inequality niggles at me. I'd ideally like to work a four day week and have more free time for life stuff/interests/projects and hopefully that will happen in the new year. The time/space will be worth the pay cut.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

8ball said:


> Some people would seem to be completely immune to alienation.


Sorry not sure what you mean? I'm self employed, get to work with some nice and interesting people, experience  different organisations on a regular basis.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> Yes. Self Employed HR consultant. Get to choose my hours and my clients. I love organisational change as well.


woohoo you love sacking people


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## JimW (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't mind my warehouse job picking and packing too much, tiny (three people) subsidiary of a much bigger business, so not much faceless management to deal with day to day but also backed so not precarious.
Work physical but not very, unsupervised and steady rather than busy.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> Yes. Self Employed HR consultant. Get to choose my hours and my clients. I love organisational change as well.



Bet you're a right cunt


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> woohoo you love sacking people


No the opposite, I like helping employers make the right decision and follow the correct procedures, which when it comes to real change needs to involve consultation as well.


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## Miss-Shelf (Nov 13, 2015)

Sometimes. ....
I am a senior Lecturer in a subject I like and I get to work with interesting and varied students.  I am well respected in my job from the students and I really value being a part of the massive transformation  in their lives that occurs during their study.   My colleagues on the whole are compassionate and interesting people

Downside 
Massive workload
Still here at 7 30 on a Friday and loads of work to take home too
Boo


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Bet you're a right cunt


Did you get up on the wrong side of bed today dear?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> No the opposite, I like helping employers make the right decision and follow the correct procedures, which when it comes to real change needs to involve consultation as well.


organisational change? do you ever advise organisations to downsize?


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> Did you get up on the wrong side of bed today dear?



Is that what you tell people when they ask you how they are going to feed their kids?


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

I fucking hate HR


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## mentalchik (Nov 13, 2015)

not yet but am working on it


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

I like my job and feel that some of what i do is worthwhile, but it does make me feel alienated and depressed. i feel alienated by my managers and some of my colleagues, and by the structure of the system i work in and i feel depressed because whatever i do as an individual, it's not enough.


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## purenarcotic (Nov 13, 2015)

I love my job but sometimes it monumentally depresses me. We have still such a long, long way to go in giving abuse victims the right responses and having the right attitudes surrounding DV, sexual violence etc and it can feel like a neverending slog up Mount Everest sometimes.


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## JimW (Nov 13, 2015)

I still freelance translate too and that's usually much more of a grind.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> organisational change? do you ever advise organisations to downsize?


No, they have decided what they want to do before I get involved, I help them make the changes they want to make in a way that works for everyone, I'm particularly keen on flatter structures, smaller pay gaps and developing the potential of women employees in particular. 

Organisational change is not just about "down sizing" but can be about releasing the potential of all workers, introducing proper consultative mechanisms, flexible working, hot desking, remote working, it's endlessly fascinating.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

Why do people hate HR? They were lovely to me. Sorted my annual leave, helped with my pensions contribution and were very understanding when my pony had a hysterectomy.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 13, 2015)

posted twice for some reason there, sorry!


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Nov 13, 2015)

I find my job fucking hard. It can leave me miserable and angry, but at times very rewarding.


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## Plumdaff (Nov 13, 2015)

My job regularly frustrates the hell out of me. I often feel very powerless in the face of structural forces seemingly designed to increase mental health problems. But moments... this week a woman told me the work I'd helped her do had profoundly changed her ability to control her depression and improved her life. Moments like that are unbeatable. Plus I work with a nice bunch, have a kind, if slightly useless, boss and work my hours over four days so I have every Friday at home with my daughter. 

It could be a lot worse.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> No, they have decided what they want to do before I get involved, I help them make the changes they want to make in a way that works for everyone, I'm particularly keen on flatter structures, smaller pay gaps and developing the potential of women employees in particular.
> 
> Organisational change is not just about "down sizing" but can be about releasing the potential of all workers, introducing proper consultative mechanisms, flexible working, hot desking, remote working, it's endlessly fascinating.


so you're the grease that makes the shafting easier. well done.


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## youngian (Nov 13, 2015)

Had a promising career as a press officer for a skills provider which was far better than 95% of jobs but was nevertheless tediously soul destroying. I quit to become a carer for my disabled mother so she's not bunged in a home to rot. That is immensely satisfying. The government recognises my contribution to propping up the creaking social care system by paying me £60 per week. But at least the hours are fairly flexible, I don't face bullshit appraisals and have my own workstation where I can jerk off to the internet with a few numbers after lunch.


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## adidaswoody (Nov 13, 2015)

Saw operator  I love it, cut cut cut


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Why do people hate HR?



My experience of HR is that they exist to snitch to management and let people now they are being sacked in a totally inappropriate sing songy tone with an RP accent which they think is comforting to the people losing their jobs.


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## spanglechick (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes (I'm a teacher - secondary age Drama).

I feel connected to the world in the most enormously meaningful way, and i mostly feel massively uplifted...


But it comes at a cost.


I work ten hours in the school building on a standard day, sometimes longer (up til nine).  I almost always work at home in the evenings for between 1-4 hrs on average.  And much of it is full-on work.  It's like doing a six-hour stand-up routine, five days a week.  To a TOUGH audience.  Then...  well, the data analysis, the planning, the assessment... it all fucking *matters* so much: you can't cut corners.

And the money isn't bad, at my age, but it's not fair recompense for the hours, responsibility, or the impact it has on my life.  I do NOTHING else.  I can't go to a book group, I can't visit my mum of a weekend...  I have my job, and i sleep - pretty much that's it.

And it's much, much easier for me because I'm good at it.  Not being a concieted dick, but my personality suits the job, and my brain works the right way.  I think a lot of teachers find it much harder.




So yes, now, I don't feel alienated or depressed, despite all the negatives.  In fact, it's often joyous. 


Worth saying, too, that in my last job, at a large adcademy chain, I was destroyed.	I'm very lucky, right now.


edit - bit verbose?  I'm fairly pissed.


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## fishfinger (Nov 13, 2015)

adidaswoody said:


> Saw operator  I love it, cut cut cut


I've seen all your films


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## Thora (Nov 13, 2015)

I work with very small children.  It has its frustrations but I never feel alienated or depressed.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

J Ed 

Is it the job or is it you? Be honest.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> J Ed
> 
> Is it the job or is it you? Be honest.



Well, I work in a supermarket for slightly more than minimum wage and I would assume that it is the job, rather than me, making me feel bad when I am shouted at because I cannot make a self-service till work while I am serving another customer, or when I am personally blamed for the 5p bag change or when it is made very clear to me that it is my fault that the supermarket is out of pak choi.

Then again I suppose that for a Blairite cunt like you I'm part of the 'Corbynjugend' I'm not being aspirational enough because I don't enthusiastically embrace the cognitive dissonance necessary to perform the emotional labour involved in customer service that means I don't starve.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> J Ed
> 
> Is it the job or is it you? Be honest.


surely it's the system? nearly all jobs are alienating and depressing. all of them are at times.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

J Ed said:


> Well, I work in a supermarket for slightly more than minimum wage and I would assume that it is the job, rather than me, making me feel bad when I am shouted at because I cannot make a self-service till work while I am serving another customer, or when I am personally blamed for the 5p bag change or when it is made very clear to me that it is my fault that the supermarket is out of pak choi.



Sounds like you don't like the customers. Can't you transfer to the warehouse?


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Sounds like you don't like the customers. Can't you transfer to the warehouse?


oh fuck off


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

I am sorry you haven't had a positive experience with HR jed. I never looked at it like that. 

Do you think HR attracts a certain personality type then?


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

So the people on here who are alienated and depressed are alienated and depressed because their jobs make them alienated and depressed. It's all capitalism's fault. 

I suggest that there is no utopia, no perfectly ordered society in which either Orang Utan or J Ed would be rays of sunshine. And it's the poor sods who can't get their pak choi that I feel for.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> So the people on here who are alienated and depressed are alienated and depressed because their jobs make them alienated and depressed. It's all capitalism's fault.
> 
> I suggest that there is no utopia, no perfectly ordered society in which either Orang Utan or J Ed would be rays of sunshine. And it's the poor sods who can't get their pak choi that I feel for.


you're a wally. you fail to recognise that people are inevitably alienated by their jobs and suggest they jump from the frying pan into the fire.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Sounds like you don't like the customers. Can't you transfer to the warehouse?



You are being flippant and rude but, I am sure without meaning to, you actually do raise a fairly good point with your question. In the average population there is always going to be a relatively high number of people who are introverts, no one likes doing the emotional labour in low value low skill work but it undoubtedly comes easier to people who are extroverted. In late neoliberalism there has been a huge shift to the service economy, and with it a huge shift towards 'customer-facing' roles but has there been a corresponding increase in the amount of extroverts in the general population? I doubt it. 

The idea that if someone simply does not like a job like this then they should do another really does expose the fraud of neoliberal choice theory. Clearly if I had a choice I would not be doing this job, just as millions of people in this country would not be performing emotional labour as their job if they had a choice.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> poor sods who can't get their pak choi that I feel for.



You know, I've always wondered what sort of person berates someone working on a shop floor for something that is so far beyond their means to control just for the fuck of it. It's you.


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## wayward bob (Nov 13, 2015)

while nothing like the drain of spanglechick's people-facing hours my hours are also lonnnng. i've maybe had one full day off (as in weekend day) since i started back 2 months ago. i'm not customer facing in general thank god, but i can easily be working 12 hours a day without more than a bus-ride and a sandwich at my desk as a break. because my work is so varied i can flit from one task to another without taking a breath and i have to keep an eye on that. my family see even less of me now than when i was studying...


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> you fail to recognise that people are inevitably alienated by their jobs.



I hope you don't take this absurdity out on the kids. They deserve better even than the pak choi buyers.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> I hope you don't take this absurdity out on the kids. They deserve better even than the pak choi buyers.


what absurdity? it is a fact that employment inevitably leads to alienation.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> what absurdity? it is a fact that employment inevitably leads to alienation.



Nah we are all consumers with infinite choices available to us. If you think otherwise he compares you to the Hitler youth.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't hate my job, but I don't relish it when it's my basic bread and butter of editing cop shows. Luckily I only have to work half the year, but that doesn't stop me worrying about getting more work when I am out of it (freelance).
I wish I got more music work (where I am generally on my own) I find it very soul enriching, I am much more happy with myself working at home at my own pace and feeling some self worth. I also pays pretty good, but the jobs are few and far between these days, so sitting down and editing cops all day has to be done. . . better than a log of of jobs. Better than a lot of editing jobs.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> what absurdity? it is a fact that employment inevitably leads to alienation.



It's certainly a central tenet of Marxist theory. I'm not sure that it's generally accepted by people with jobs.


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## J Ed (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It's certainly a central tenet of Marxist theory. I'm not sure that it's generally accepted by people with jobs.



Yes, I have been told by bigots like you 'at least I have a job' while literally serving them in a customer service role. These days for (Red) Tory scum like you it's not enough to be employed you're also scum if you're in low paid low status work. What a hateful cunt you are.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It's certainly a central tenet of Marxist theory. I'm not sure that it's generally accepted by people with jobs.


most people hate their jobs.


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> most people hate their jobs.


I don't. The pension, 15% discount on a travel card, flexible working. Could be worse.


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## Hellsbells (Nov 13, 2015)

alot of the time, yes, apart from when I'm actually in the classroom teaching. 
I'm a sessional (crappy zero hours) teacher so tend to come into college just to teach my class and then leave. I don't have a desk or a phone. Once I've finished teaching, I stop being paid so although the work doesn't stop (ha ha - I wish), I'm normally reluctant to stay in the college building so tend to spend most of my non teaching time working at home, by myself, or in coffee shops, by myself. I hated the boredom of working in admin before I started teaching, but it was nice to be part of a team I saw every day.


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## bi0boy (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't work any more and fucking love it, because I hated my job.


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## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2015)

I'm an engineer,  I work in r&d. I like the job itself but the politics and petty point scoring and general fuckwittery do depress me. I feel alienated every day because I'm a woman and there are at least five different ways how this happens.


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## Cheesypoof (Nov 13, 2015)

spanglechick said:


> Yes (I'm a teacher - secondary age Drama).
> 
> I feel connected to the world in the most enormously meaningful way, and i mostly feel massively uplifted...
> 
> ...



Secondary school teachers in the UK have it the worst - it sounds like exploitation from hundreds of stories online from stressed out, overworked teachers. Some say they work 60 hour weeks, and always have to work at weekends. One said she quit cos she hadn't seen her kids! It seems that Offsted's ridiculous demands and neverending paperwork is ruining the teaching profession in the UK. Some stats say that over 50% of qualified teachers leave the profession within 5 years of qualification, which is scary. Actually, recruiters were over from the UK to Ireland recently to try to recruit Irish people, offering to train them for FREE in England. They had a site on Facebook presenting a sugarcoated view and got thousands of angry posts from teachers telling the real story of what life is like as a teacher in England.


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

8ball said:


> Some people would seem to be completely immune to alienation.


Ahh now.

I can answer yes to this thread, even though the job is nothing special - secretary/admin in a lawfirm.  The reason why I'm happy with it is that is it just that, a JOB.  I don't expect a "career", just a job whereby I get money, then go home at the end of the day and forget about it.  I've been working as a legal secretary for over ten years and I've enjoyed it (even though lawyers and lawfirms are fairly evil - I haven't worked in one of the non-evil ones).

That said, I'm probably not going to back after maternity leave


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

I like my job. Great perks such as a gym, dental care and a new mobile phone every year.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> I like my job. Great perks such as a gym, dental care and a new mobile phone every year.


I don't get suspicious about newbies and prefer to take them for their word, but fuck off Ninjernky


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

I get a laptop and phone so I can WFH when I want. I don't really like it in the office. The lighting's shit. But I'll go in a couple of days a week if I fancy talking to people.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

Because I like my job I am suspicious? What if I lied and said I did not like my job?


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Because I like my job I am suspicious? What if I lied and said I did not like my job?



Then the ginger monkey would trust you again. Bizarre, I know.


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## Maharani (Nov 13, 2015)

adidaswoody said:


> Saw operator  I love it, cut cut cut


Watch those digits. I met an old boy in the hospital today who sliced his forefinger off with a circular saw. Said he didn't feel a thing!


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Because I like my job I am suspicious? What if I lied and said I did not like my job?


No, because you list secondary benefits which not every one is privileged to enjoy


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Then the ginger monkey would trust you again. Bizarre, I know.


Fuck off Toryboy - I like my job too.


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## jakethesnake (Nov 13, 2015)

I've been alienated and depressed to a greater or lesser extent pretty much all my life; work has usually exacerbated this... at the grand age of 45 I've come to a sort of understanding with life - I accept I'm going to have to work and earn money but I have found a way that doesn't kill my soul too much. I have two jobs because neither one is paid enough to fund my profligate lifestyle (three children who insist on being housed, clothed and fed) but I can do these jobs without feeling too much of a cunt at the end of the day; both jobs are for small charities actually helping people on a very basic day by day level - the street homeless and people who have just left psychiatric hospital. In both jobs there is a very minimal level of bull shit and the managers leave me to get on with it. I would like to be paid more though and work less hours.


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> I don't get suspicious about newbies and prefer to take them for their word, but fuck off Ninjernky


witch hunt?


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

People shouldn't be expected to take shit.  People shouldn't be expected to work for low money.  People shouldn't be expected to work so many hours they have no time for hobbies and family.  People shouldn't be expected to do a job that emotionally drains them and be told "you're lucky to have a job"


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## 8115 (Nov 13, 2015)

Chick Webb said:


> People shouldn't be expected to take shit.  People shouldn't be expected to work for low money.  People shouldn't be expected to work so many hours they have no time for hobbies and family.  People shouldn't be expected to do a job that emotionally drains them and be told "you're lucky to have a job"


100% this.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Fuck off Toryboy - I like my job too.





Orang Utan said:


> what absurdity? it is a fact that employment inevitably leads to alienation.



Not that I care in the slightest whether you are happy in the library, but if you can't even stay consistent in one thread it's difficult to take anything you say about your employment seriously.


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## snadge (Nov 13, 2015)

I love my job, I'm superb at it, there is always a bad side though, I scare my superiors because I know more than them, so I get penalized because of that, I have had a lot of empolyers but that does not phase me at all, I still enjoy my work.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Not that I care in the slightest whether you are happy in the library, but if you can't even stay consistent in one thread it's difficult to take anything you say about your employment seriously.


The fact that you perceive inconsistencies speaks volumes


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

Yes it's much better than my first full time job where I was an errands dogsbody. The perks are why I like my job of course. Free vending machines as well (but no booze lol).


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Whatever anyone does, they generally end up pissing around on here all day anyway.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Yes it's much better than my first full time job where I was an errands dogsbody. The perks are why I like my job of course. Free vending machines as well (but no booze lol).


What about the actual job itself? You can only bear it because of the perks? Have a nice sweet to bite on while we fuck you over


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> Fuck off Toryboy - I like my job too.


I'm also a marxist who likes my job.


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

machine cat said:


> Whatever anyone does, they generally end up pissing around on here all day anyway.


Hey, I'm on maternity leave!  I should be pissing around on Urban more.


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## Agent Sparrow (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't feel alienated because there's actually a really good team dynamic/camaraderie atm, plus I (and everyone) really values the nature of the work. The reason for that camaraderie though is that we're being shafted by higher management, and in turn they are by the government, so the reasons for that are still pretty depressing. And we are all horribly overworked.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

Well some days aren't very good. Everyone has bad days but I it's nice not to have that feeling of dread on a Sunday. The most important thing for me is I don't have targets and pushy manager.

Still get an anxiety that this is going to end though. That they'll figure out I am not very good at my job and fire me. Or I'll let them down. Worry about it ending when it has only just begun.


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## chilango (Nov 13, 2015)

chilango said:


> No. No I don't.



To expand...

...most of my work these days is in child protection. It's really emotionally and psychologically gruelling. I have to work pretty hard at locking that stuff away mentally. There aren't enough victories for it to be rewarding, but every day without defeat is something. 

in return my working day is mercifully short. I don't/won't/can't take work home with me. I have a decent level of autonomy over my work. I'm woefully underpaid. My working conditions though are pretty good.

Someone still profits from the surplus value of my labour of course, I'm not entirely sure who or how though.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Well some days aren't very good. Everyone has bad days but I it's nice not to have that feeling of dread on a Sunday. The most important thing for me is I don't have targets and pushy manager.
> 
> Still get an anxiety that this is going to end though. That they'll figure out I am not very good at my job and fire me. Or I'll let them down. Worry about it ending when it has only just begun.


That's alienation right there. And material perks contributing to false consciousness


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

It's up to me to say if it is alienation. I don't feel it is. I used to get the same anxiety when I first met my partner.


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

chilango said:


> To expand...
> 
> ...most of my work these days is in child protection. It's really emotionally and psychologically gruelling. I have to work pretty hard at locking that stuff away mentally. There aren't enough victories for it to be rewarding, but every day without defeat is something.
> 
> ...


When I worked in the not-quite-so-hardcore-but-vaguely-similar job of teaching art to very "at risk" teenagers, what I used to do was try ignore the daily grind of bad things and amplify the tiny victories.   But you know about doing that, I'm sure.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Do you think HR attracts a certain personality type then?


 
quite possibly


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## purves grundy (Nov 13, 2015)

I've a really good job but subject is defo separated from object


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

Ah everyone's being mean to Teenage Cthulhu.  Come on, some of ye must know the feeling of thinking you're a fraud and about to be found out?  I often feel like that when doing grown up things, even though I'm 35.


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> It's up to me to say if it is alienation. I don't feel it is. I used to get the same anxiety when I first met my partner.


I'd have to say I agree with this. I can't comment on the anxiety part. No experience there I'm afraid. 

I get quite a few perks from my job and the likes of flexible working hours helps with childcare.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 13, 2015)

Chick Webb said:


> Ah everyone's being mean to Teenage Cthulhu.  Come on, some of ye must know the feeling of thinking you're a fraud and about to be found out?  I often feel like that when doing grown up things, even though I'm 35.


everyone feels that!


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> everyone feels that!


No they don't.


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> everyone feels that!





machine cat said:


> No they don't.


I guess we know which table everyone will be sitting at in the cafeteria at recess.


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## JimW (Nov 13, 2015)

Orang Utan said:


> everyone feels that!


I don't as I've already been found out.


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Chick Webb said:


> I guess we know which table everyone will be sitting at in the cafeteria at recess.


Recess?


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 13, 2015)

I love my job, I get paid to do something I love and have a huge passion for. I'm also fucking good at it.


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## Chick Webb (Nov 13, 2015)

machine cat said:


> Recess?


Sorry, I thought everyone could see my inner vision of all of us on this thread being high school movie stereotypes.


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## equationgirl (Nov 13, 2015)

Teenage Cthulhu said:


> Well some days aren't very good. Everyone has bad days but I it's nice not to have that feeling of dread on a Sunday. The most important thing for me is I don't have targets and pushy manager.
> 
> Still get an anxiety that this is going to end though. That they'll figure out I am not very good at my job and fire me. Or I'll let them down. Worry about it ending when it has only just begun.


That's common, don't worry, I have that feeling when I start a new job too.


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## machine cat (Nov 13, 2015)

Chick Webb said:


> Sorry, I thought everyone could see my inner vision of all of us on this thread being high school movie stereotypes.


I don't understand.


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 13, 2015)

Thank you


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## adidaswoody (Nov 14, 2015)

Maharani said:


> Watch those digits. I met an old boy in the hospital today who sliced his forefinger off with a circular saw. Said he didn't feel a thing!


Haha it's got so close so many times when I'm half asleep  who needs a thumb anyway though?


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## Pickman's model (Nov 14, 2015)

my jobs would be grand if it wasn't for the senior management.


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## adidaswoody (Nov 14, 2015)

fishfinger said:


> I've seen all your films


I want to play a game.


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## emanymton (Nov 15, 2015)

I hate my job, and I basically get paid to be pedantic and picky these days. Mind you I do work for a bank.

In general I think it's more complex than just liking or not liking your job. For many people it is not necessarily the job itself that they hate, but the experience of working for someone else. I imagine this is especially true for people who do a job that they feel is in some way worthwhile and positive (nursing or teaching for example). And when we are talking about alienation, it is something we all feel in and outside of work, as the nature of work distorts are experience of the world and obscures the fact that all work is about relationships between people and ultimately about meeting some human need somewhere. Look at the op even when dealing with people face to face sometimes we are still unable to see the other person as human and treat them more like a machine. Then there is the fact that when we go to work, we give up our freedom and liberty and make ourself subservient to another, we live in a society which tells us we are free and equally, yet fails to apply them to one of the most central parts of our lives.


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## Winot (Nov 15, 2015)

emanymton said:


> I hate my job, and I basically get paid to be pedantic and picky these days. Mind you I do work for a bank.
> 
> In general I think it's more complex than just liking or not liking your job. For many people it is not necessarily the job itself that they hate, but the experience of working for someone else. I imagine this is especially true for people who do a job that they feel is in some way worthwhile and positive (nursing or teaching for example). And when we are talking about alienation, it is something we all feel in and outside of work, as the nature of work distorts are experience of the world and obscures the fact that all work is about relationships between people and ultimately about meeting some human need somewhere. Look at the op even when dealing with people face to face sometimes we are still unable to see the other person as human and treat them more like a machine. Then there is the fact that when we go to work, we give up our freedom and liberty and make ourself subservient to another, we live in a society which tells us we are free and equally, yet fails to apply them to one of the most central parts of our lives.



Good post. It's stressful and unpleasant when someone else (that you don't necessarily get on with) has control over you. There are studies (from the civil service) which show that the lower down the pecking order you are, the more stress you are likely to feel. 

It's a shame the thread had become at times focused on "you are a bad person because of your job".


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## neonwilderness (Nov 15, 2015)

Rutita1 said:


> I'd ideally like to work a four day week and have more free time for life stuff/interests/projects and hopefully that will happen in the new year. The time/space will be worth the pay cut.


I've recently changed jobs and now work a four day week and can highly recommend it  

Also the people you work with can have a big effect on things. Previously I was beginning to hate my job, but now I'm working with a decent bunch again I'm finding it much easier even though I'm doing they same work as before.


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## Agent Sparrow (Nov 15, 2015)

emanymton said:


> I hate my job, and I basically get paid to be pedantic and picky these days. Mind you I do work for a bank.
> 
> In general I think it's more complex than just liking or not liking your job. *For many people it is not necessarily the job itself that they hate, but the experience of working for someone else. I imagine this is especially true for people who do a job that they feel is in some way worthwhile and positive (nursing or teaching for example). *And when we are talking about alienation, it is something we all feel in and outside of work, as the nature of work distorts are experience of the world and obscures the fact that all work is about relationships between people and ultimately about meeting some human need somewhere. Look at the op even when dealing with people face to face sometimes we are still unable to see the other person as human and treat them more like a machine. Then there is the fact that when we go to work, we give up our freedom and liberty and make ourself subservient to another, we live in a society which tells us we are free and equally, yet fails to apply them to one of the most central parts of our lives.


I dunno, I find working for the NHS as an organization feels empowering in many ways; that I'm part of something that is incredibly socially important and is made up of a multitude of individuals who care about doing something meaningful and helpful. Yes there are of course frustrations, particularly so in the climate of cuts and budgets, and yes there is a level of management that makes things difficult for me, but I'm pretty removed from them so the people I see myself as working for are my immediate bosses (often under similar pressures), the specific trusts I'm associated with and the big organization as a whole. 

It would, of course, be a completely different kettle of fish if I was working for a private health company. I would be a lot unhappier, and yes, possibly feeling quite alienated and resentful.


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## MsMouse (Nov 15, 2015)

I'm a library assistant. Pay is pretty crap but the work is decent and positive.


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## campanula (Nov 15, 2015)

I had many reasonably well-paid positions within the social work/voluntary sector and came to hate and loathe nearly every aspect of it. I now garden for a living, am often cold, bored, always broke but never, ever anywhere near as alienated, disillusioned and furious as I was working in an increasingly cynical social work industry. I only have the freedom to make this choice now I have no dependents...if it rains for 2 weeks, I eat baked potatoes and read a lot.


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## RubyBlue (Nov 16, 2015)

I really enjoy my job, the work is interesting, dress as I please and work with a great team - even my manager is good!


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## sim667 (Nov 16, 2015)

I was an FE teacher, but the way they are being treated currently meant I ended up bailing out, as there's only so much being told "you're not good enough" on shit pay I could take (even the best teachers are consistently found to be at only "satisfactory" standard in observations).

Now I work in a small local IT company, and the lack of travel, and much better pay are really good, but I do feel a little unfulfilled...... But I can't help feeling that the lack of fulfilment is as much to do with my day to day life as it is with my job.


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## existentialist (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm in a job which, a good 80% of the time, feels worthwhile, valuable, and, if not "enjoyable" then certainly satisfying.

Until August last year, though, I was working for an employer who increasingly failed to value the work I (and my team) was doing and our professionalism - we found ourselves being increasingly micromanaged and investigated in everything we did. Leaving that job was a wrench: it felt, at quite a gut level, like I was betraying my clients. And, in many ways I was. But if I'd stayed, I knew that I would be increasingly prevented from doing what needed to be done for those who needed it, and that I, personally, would not be able to withstand the stress and aggravation from "upstairs" very much longer. The sense of relief I had when I finally went was palpable, and I realised that, far from getting out before it was too late, I'd probably only just got out in time, as far as my mental health was concerned.

I still do a similar job, but mostly freelance now - that has its own challenges, but even so, the balance between reward and aggravation makes it positive.


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## Artaxerxes (Nov 16, 2015)

No.

40 more years and I'm free.


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## Pickman's model (Nov 16, 2015)

Artaxerxes said:


> No.
> 
> 40 more years and I'm free.


good luck


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## Sweet FA (Nov 16, 2015)

Agent Sparrow said:


> It would, of course, be a completely different kettle of fish if I was working for a private health company. I would be a lot unhappier, and yes, possibly feeling quite alienated and resentful.


But richer


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## Teenage Cthulhu (Nov 16, 2015)

Today I hate my job and I am feeling rather naive for saying what I did earlier in the thread.


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## BigTom (Nov 16, 2015)

Yes, I'm a project manager for a cycle training company. The job fits my personality and skills really well, small team and we all get along no politics or personal bullshit, and I support the aims/outcomes of the project we're working on.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 16, 2015)

Work for myself and enjoy the work. Stupidly long hours though, almost every evening and weekend day too. Some prick even emailed on Christmas day last year, that got ignored.


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## Virtual Blue (Nov 16, 2015)

i hate my job but the company keeps me sane.


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## Agent Sparrow (Nov 16, 2015)

Sweet FA said:


> But richer


Don't think I would be if talking about tendered mainstream services. In fact if terms and conditions weren't protected I assume wages and benefits would be far worse.


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## Poot (Nov 16, 2015)

I love my job. It's so varied! Today I was trudging through mud and cow pats up to my knees in search of badger setts. Then I went back to my cosy office and typed up some statutory notices and discussed some surveys, then I went home and changed so I could meet with a pissed-off property developer who didn't like our plans, on a building site in a city. 

All this and I only work for 5 hours a day!!


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## Poot (Nov 16, 2015)

I mean, obviously it would be better if my job description wasn't secretary and I wasn't on just slightly more than minimum wage but, well, they're sexist


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## lazythursday (Nov 16, 2015)

I work for myself, and my clients are mostly in the not-for-profit sector. I am quite good at what I do and I even enjoy parts of it but it's still often alienating and depressing. It's great not having to turn up somewhere 9-5 and great not having a manager peering over my shoulder but I am still totally at the mercy of my clients who sometimes squeeze me dry and effectively make me work for minimum wage or less. And sometimes don't pay at all.

I am lucky in that I earn a lot more than people I know who rely on food banks but it's still well below the national average and I just don't seem to be able to increase my income. The unreliability of income is sometimes frankly terrifying and that makes me hoard money, which means I never seem to be able to make myself spend it on things I really need, or do things like borrow money to get things done on my falling-apart house. 

And it can be lonely and isolating both on a day-to-day basis and in having to be totally self-reliant without others / an organisation to lean on. And sometimes I get asked to do things which are just stupid and pointless and I do them anyway cos I need the money, and that makes me feel like a dancing monkey or something. But fundamentally no-one tells me what to do and people do treat me with at least a surface level of respect and that's a huge positive.


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## trabuquera (Nov 16, 2015)

Alienation and depression are vital parts of my job description


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## catinthehat (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm pretty fortunate to be doing a job I love in the tea time of my days.  I was a university and college lecturer for around 20 odd years and for the last 8 have been collaborating with an Icelandic not for profit NGO run by a person whose books and theories I have always admired.  In August I started working with them as my main job.  We do several things but mainly training teachers, ed psychs and policy people in anti discriminatory education and intercultural pedagogy.  We travel a lot as part of the job.  We can be as critical as we like as we are not government funded or tied to any business, we don't need to make a profit just enough to live and we are located in Iceland which means my taxes go on stuff like education and health and not military etc.  Its also consistently voted as the best country to be a woman in.  So not in the least alienated and depressed by my job now.  Apart from the fact of 'why did it take till Im 58 to be doing something I actually like'.


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## billy_bob (Nov 16, 2015)

I do. I manually masturbate caged animals for artificial insemination.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 16, 2015)

billy_bob said:


> I do. I manually masturbate caged animals for artificial insemination.



This thread is about your jobs, not your hobbies.


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## Boycey (Nov 16, 2015)

events carpenter, workshop hand, art fitter...

i have jobs which exhaust me, make me just enough to live on with the occasional treat but no- they do not make me feel alienated or depressed. for the most part i work for/with friends where there is mutual love and respect which makes me feel exceptionally fucking lucky. there are a few occasions where i have to deal with a multi-faceted clusterfuck of bureaucracy but they're few and far between and pay me more money.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 16, 2015)

I would find it bewildering to think there are people out there who think all jobs are automatically alienating and depressing, until I remember that many jobs are and some people have no experience of empowering jobs, or degrees of work autonomy. I think it's partly down to a failure of our education and training approach which doesn't support the idea of workers taking more control over their own work. This has means not just the rank and file worker, but also managers.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> I think it's partly down to a failure of our education and training approach which doesn't support the idea of workers taking more control over their own work.



Management don't support it either, probably because management only exists because of the false notion that workers can't be trusted to do their own jobs properly without adult supervision.


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## J Ed (Nov 16, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> I think it's partly down to a failure of our education and training approach which doesn't support the idea of workers taking more control over their own work.



No, the thing you're thinking of here is capitalism.


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## moomoo (Nov 16, 2015)

I get paid for driving round the countryside, looking at sheep and listening to the radio. And I only do it two days a week. What's not to like?


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Management don't support it either, probably because management only exists because of the false notion that workers can't be trusted to do their own jobs properly without adult supervision.


That's what I said - managers are workers, and they don't believe in their own power or that of other workers to make organisations work better.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> managers are workers, and they don't believe in their own power or that of other workers to make organisations work better.



Probably because the best way to make an organisation work better is too shoot all the fucking managers.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

moomoo said:


> I get paid for driving round the countryside, looking at sheep and listening to the radio. And I only do it two days a week. What's not to like?



My dad's mate drives the local library book bus round north cornwall two days a week. I've never been more jealous of someone else's job.


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## billy_bob (Nov 16, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> This thread is about your jobs, not your hobbies.



Just because I might be doing it anyway, even if I wasn't getting paid, that doesn't mean it's not my job


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## 8ball (Nov 16, 2015)

moomoo said:


> I get paid for driving round the countryside, looking at sheep and listening to the radio. And I only do it two days a week. What's not to like?



PM me if they ever have any jobs going.


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## Addy (Nov 16, 2015)

I love my job.
Identifying problems and working out root cause analysis and solutions with suppliers to our industry.
Travel overseas to identify and develop new suppliers for our company to use.
Mentoring a new team of engineers to pass on manufacturing and problem solving knowledge.

Market is down at the moment and reduced hours are being negotiated, but bring on the 4 day week, that would be the icing!


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## Roadkill (Nov 16, 2015)

I love my job.  There's a lot wrong with it and it's properly hard work sometimes, but when it goes well there's a tremendous sense of achievement.  Today has been one of those days.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Almost any work can be enjoyable as long as your boss isn't an arsehole.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Almost any work can be enjoyable as long as your boss isn't an arsehole.





> Probably because the best way to make an organisation work better is too shoot all the fucking managers.





How many managers are there in this country? How many of them earn squillions more than their fellow colleagues?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Almost any work can be enjoyable as long as your boss isn't an arsehole.



Mine's a right cunt.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 16, 2015)

Pretty fucked off with mine at the moment, and I'm self-employed.


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## Addy (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> Almost any work can be enjoyable as long as your boss isn't an arsehole.



My ex manager was a complete old skool bully type of cunt.
Would I work for him again?	....Definately!
I knew how to manage him!
How to stay 1 step ahead and be able to answer all his questions before he even asked them.
Never show weakness even if they are your manager providing you have the answers and you know more than they do.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> How many managers are there in this country? How many of them earn squillions more than their fellow colleagues?



It's not about earnings, it's about the fact that management is a wholly unnecessary thing invented to give the rich an excuse to be rich. It's about the fact that a bad manager can sack a good worker, or a stupid manager can tell a smart worker what she should be doing.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

You can go to school to learn management ffs. As if it's an actual thing like bricklaying or heart surgery.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 16, 2015)

It is. 

I put it to you that you are describing supervision, which is not the same thing as management.


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## Sherman Tank (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm not sure you understand how society works Spooky??


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Sherman Tank said:


> I'm not sure you understand how society works Spooky??



If I didn't understand how society works, I wouldn't be so cross about it.


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## SpookyFrank (Nov 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> It is.
> 
> I put it to you that you are describing supervision, which is not the same thing as management.



It's a thing in the same way that 'being a twat' is a thing, it's not a thing that actually needs doing.


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## billy_bob (Nov 16, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> Pretty fucked off with mine at the moment, and I'm self-employed.



My feelings exactly. You wage slaves think you've got it bad? Your boss's jokes are shit? I even know which shit joke my boss is going to tell before I tell it.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> You can go to school to learn management ffs. As if it's an actual thing like bricklaying or heart surgery.


Of course it's a thing, what a monumentally stupid thing to say.


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## Favelado (Nov 16, 2015)

I've been sick of TEFL for years but just started at a school that's actually well run and gives us tonnes of resources to work with. I'm really enjoying it.


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## mauvais (Nov 16, 2015)

I have a job that lets me post here with surprising regularity should I so desire, so in answer to the question, no.


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## existentialist (Nov 16, 2015)

SpookyFrank said:


> It's not about earnings, it's about the fact that management is a wholly unnecessary thing invented to give the rich an excuse to be rich. It's about the fact that a bad manager can sack a good worker, or a stupid manager can tell a smart worker what she should be doing.


In certain kinds of organisation, that may well be true - but it's not typical of what a manager is and does, or how the relationship with staff should work.

A competent manager will recognise that he is a generalist, co-ordinating the work of specialists. His role is to ensure that they are able to operate effectively together, and to act as a specialist regarding his department to the generalists upstairs, who in turn report...etc.

Because the alternative is either some kind of headless chicken co-operative where everyone on the "shop floor" is automagically co-operating and co-ordinating horizontally with each other or some kind of People's Committees running things, of the workers, for the workers, by the workers. That can work in small enterprises, but doesn't scale very well.


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## spanglechick (Nov 16, 2015)

I'm really good at managing - which is rare in education.  I'm a crap "leader"  I can't be arsed with vision and change and aspiration.  But I'm good at making sure things get done at the right times, and looking for ways to save my collegues and me time in our boring admin duties.


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## Puddy_Tat (Nov 16, 2015)

my work intranet sort of thingy has a 'health and wellbeing' section which includes a page on 'depression and suicide'



wonder what the reaction would be if a few of us leave it visible when the manager is wandering round...


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## J Ed (Nov 17, 2015)

Favelado said:


> I've been sick of TEFL for years but just started at a school that's actually well run and gives us tonnes of resources to work with. I'm really enjoying it.



I am glad that things are going a bit better for you mate, is the school in Spain?


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## Favelado (Nov 17, 2015)

J Ed said:


> I am glad that things are going a bit better for you mate, is the school in Spain?



Thank you. Life is a bit better. Still in Madrid. Health is 80% better too. Teaching is good when they give you the tools to do it properly


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## hot air baboon (Nov 17, 2015)

existentialist said:


> In certain kinds of organisation, that may well be true - but it's not typical of what a manager is and does, or how the relationship with staff should work.
> 
> A competent manager will recognise that he is a generalist, co-ordinating the work of specialists. His role is to ensure that they are able to operate effectively together, and to act as a specialist regarding his department to the generalists upstairs, who in turn report...etc.
> 
> Because the alternative is either some kind of headless chicken co-operative where everyone on the "shop floor" is automagically co-operating and co-ordinating horizontally with each other or some kind of People's Committees running things, of the workers, for the workers, by the workers. That can work in small enterprises, but doesn't scale very well.




.....W Edwards Deming basically invented post-war industrial management...a prophet without honour in his own country the Japanese absorbed everything he had to teach & then proceeded to methodically wipe out or render terminally uncompetitive vast sectors of western industry.......at which point the executives surveying the wreckage suddenley became interested in what he had to say...

_Although the core of his method to improve quality was the use of statistics to detect flaws in production processes, he developed a broader management philosophy that emphasized problem-solving based on cooperation. He exhorted managers to "drive out fear," so that workers would feel free to make improvements in the workplace.

Mr. Deming denounced management procedures like production quotas, performance ratings and individual bonuses, saying they were inherently unfair and detrimental to quality. He said customers would get better products and services when workers were encouraged to use their minds as well as their hands on the job._

www.nytimes.com


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## Miss-Shelf (Nov 17, 2015)

that thing about workload ....i am up late doing admin and UCAS reference


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## friedaweed (Nov 17, 2015)

Most of the time I love my job. It fits in with my life and fulfills a part of me that pastry doesn't reach.


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## Dharmakhameloen (Nov 17, 2015)

Love my 'job', I started doing it as a volunteer at 15 and I'm still kind of doing the same thing at 42. I haven't had an employer as such for a good 15 years... I doubt anyone would have me now, which suits me fine.

Even though I really enjoy what I do, last actual job I had - supposedly a 'dream' position - the environment was just fucking awful. Dreadful wankers on coke and empire builders around every corner. Four weeks in I decided I'd do exactly one year and bail... never regretted it. It wasn't a good year, but it was a lot easier knowing I was going to leave.

I still get a weird nervous feeling just walking past the building.


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## emanymton (Nov 17, 2015)

Does being self employed count as a job? I've always used job to specifically mean employed by someone else. Is that just me?


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## Tropi (Nov 17, 2015)

No.


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## Winot (Nov 17, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Does being self employed count as a job? I've always used job to specifically mean employed by someone else. Is that just me?



I'm self-employed and I count it as a job.  My clients can piss me off as much as a boss can.  Obviously I can choose not to work for them, but if I do that with too many, I don't earn anything.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Does being self employed count as a job? I've always used job to specifically mean employed by someone else. Is that just me?



I'm employed by my own company...


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## existentialist (Nov 17, 2015)

emanymton said:


> Does being self employed count as a job? I've always used job to specifically mean employed by someone else. Is that just me?


I think being self employed most definitely does count as a job, yes.


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## Maurice Picarda (Nov 17, 2015)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm employed by my own company...



I thought you were part of a mega bucket shop chain. Is it kind of like a franchise model or do you have a free choice of suppliers and back office services?


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2015)

Maurice Picarda said:


> I thought you were part of a mega bucket shop chain.



Could not be further away.



> Is it kind of like a franchise model



A tiny bit.



> or do you have a free choice of suppliers and back office services?



Yes, 100%.

Tis my company, my VAT returns, my HMRC bullshit etc.


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## Yetman (Nov 17, 2015)

Worked for 10 years in a safe job with decent pay, my own hours, work from home, pension all that but the thought of still doing it when I was 60 terrified me. Left it last year and went to uni to do something that I'm actually interested in. Best decision I ever made.


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