# Do we support Insulate Britain?



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Do we support Insulate Britain in here or not? They are doing it for a very good reason, and the Government isnt doing anything to tackle climate change. But, they are also stopping Ambulances. My mind goes from supporting them to not and back to supporting them and then not like clockwork. I mean the M25 is always at a standstill anyway. On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby, middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.


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## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Case study in how to alienate people from your very merit worthy aim.


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## kebabking (Oct 14, 2021)

Dead easy - I don't support then, in fact I oppose them, because I find it easy to differentiate between the aim/cause and anyone who supports it.

I take the view that their actions - including winding up middle class mums in SUV's - are actually turning people against the aim, given that it would make them more comfortable and save them money on heating bills, that they'd otherwise be supportive of.

I oppose EU membership, but I think Farage is an excreciable shit, I believe in healthcare free at the point of delivery, regardless of ability to pay, but I think the NHS is a monolith of inefficiency and bad outcomes...


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Case study in how to alienate people from your very merit worthy aim.


Your post is ambiguos. Does your post mean that you support them, or not sure if you support them, or dont support them?


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## brogdale (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Your post is ambiguos. Does your post mean that you support them, or not sure if you support them, or dont support them?


Who could reasonably disagree with their aim, but who could reasonably support their action?


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

brogdale said:


> Who could reasonably disagree with their aim, but who could reasonably support their action?


So you are in the not sure if you support them group?


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## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

Protest target - fail
Key demands - fail*

No I don't support them.

*The second of their two headline demands is "That the UK government immediately promises to produce within four months a legally binding national plan to fully fund and take responsibility for the full low-energy and low-carbon whole-house retrofit , with no externalised costs, of all homes in Britain by 2030 as part of a just transition to full decarbonisation of all parts of society and the economy."

I believe that if this demand were met it would have a negative impact on the UK meeting decarbonisation goals as a significant proportion of "all homes in Britain" would see only marginal CO2 savings from a state-funded insulation program and this would suck the training, workforce and resources from other potentially more beneficial programs.


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## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> So you are in the not sure if you support them group?


brogdale has been clear. Read their posts.


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## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Dead easy - I don't support then, in fact I oppose them, because I find it easy to differentiate between the aim/cause and anyone who supports it.
> 
> I take the view that their actions - including winding up middle class mums in SUV's - are actually turning people against the aim, given that it would make them more comfortable and save them money on heating bills, that they'd otherwise be supportive of.
> 
> I oppose EU membership, but I think Farage is an excreciable shit, I believe in healthcare free at the point of delivery, regardless of ability to pay, but I think the NHS is a monolith of inefficiency and bad outcomes...


Absolutely all this


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Insulating social housing isn't a bad aim Petition: Fund and require the insulation of all social housing by 2025 But it doesn't justify the nature of the action.  If it did then, I'd imagine those on the edge because of the cladding debacle doing it would probably garnish more sympathy, but they are not, thankfully.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> brogdale has been clear. Read their posts.


Aye, I suppose so, he/she says doesnt reasonably disagree with their aim (pro ), but doesnt reasonably support their action ( against ), so re-reading it, it seems he or she is against it because of their actions.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

I support their concerns over climate change, but not their on going action, the only thing they are going to achieve is even more powers for the police to break up protests.

Whilst it was amusing to see that middle class mum in her SUV getting upset yesterday, they were hitting a lot of working class folk just trying to get on with earning a crust, the lorry drivers, the guy that missed his job interview, and it's completely out of order blocking ambulances, people trying to get to hospital appointments, or to visit their sick loved ones.

They have little public support, despite all their media attention, their twitter account only has about 4,500 followers.

And, sooner or later, one or more of them are likely to get a good kicking, or run over, it's dangerous playing on the roads, they need to go home now.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Thread needs a poll.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

Insulate Britain is a spin off of XR (and has sprung 'into action' because of the failure of XR's 2 weeks of protest during the summer). Blocking roads is counter-productive and rightly enrages people. These activists, just like XR, are mainly white middle class folks, which is why they were initially treated with kid gloves by the police and I hear they were even brought cups of tea.

More effective forms of action would be occupations of buildings (such as corporate headquarters or empty commercial premises).

They are a wrong headed group and one that is ineffective and counter-productive. I, personally, do not support Insulate Britain.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

I've not totally made up my mind, but IMO any kind of action that stops people getting to work on time will turn many people against you, but only actions that cause significant disruption has any real chance of achieving your aims. So there's always going to be a tradeoff between these two things.


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## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

We need a strategy to upgrade insulation in much of the UK's housing stock, but if it's done too quickly to unrealistic targets with a poorly trained workforce it will be done badly, and that will be a massive waste, not least of insulation material which isn't exactly environmentally friendly to produce.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Thread needs a poll.


Thanks Cupid, thats a really good idea. I havent ever set a Poll before, am on a learning curve


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> More effective forms of action would be occupations of buildings (such as corporate headquarters or empty commercial premises).


what pressure does occupying empty commercial premises put on the state to act on climate change?


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## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

Uncertain how I feel about this. Agree with their aims but no doubt would have been pissed off if stuck behind them and had somewhere urgent to be.

Surely the Reclaim The Streets events in the 90s must have blocked ambulances as well as  mums in SUVs back in the day? I don’t know as I wasn’t there. 

One of these was supported by urban and no doubt these boards can or could claim more than a few participants. The other one, 25 years or so forward, seems to be very unpopular.


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Like everyone else on the thread so far, I support their aim but their actions are doing nothing more than pissing off people who can't do anything about it. Blockade Johnson's home or something so that HE is inconvenienced. Not ordinary people just trying to get to work/home/hospital/wherever.

Much like bloody Extinction Rebellion who just made it really difficult for me (and many others) to get home from work for 2 weeks when they were occupying Westminster Bridge.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I support their concerns over climate change, but not their on going action, the only thing they are going to achieve is even more powers for the police to break up protests.


Thats a really good point.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> what pressure does occupying empty commercial premises put on the state to act on climate change?


That's not something I should have to explain.


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## RainbowTown (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I support their concerns over climate change, but not their on going action, the only thing they are going to achieve is even more powers for the police to break up protests.
> 
> Whilst it was amusing to see that middle class mum in her SUV getting upset yesterday, they were hitting a lot of working class folk just trying to get on with earning a crust, the lorry drivers, the guy that missed his job interview, and it's completely out of order blocking ambulances, people trying to get to hospital appointments, or to visit their sick loved ones.
> 
> ...



And anyone who has the dullard Liam Norton as a spokesperson for their cause is onto a loser right from the start. The guy is an absolute tool. A complete embarrassment.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> That's not something I should have to explain.


could you though?


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> could you though?


The premise of your question comes across as stupid and devoid of thinking and imagination.

To me it's obvious, given some thought, how occupying such buildings is more effective than enraging people by blocking ambulances getting to their destinations.


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## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Do we support Insulate Britain in here or not? They are doing it for a very good reason, and the Government isnt doing anything to tackle climate change. But, they are also stopping Ambulances. My mind goes from supporting them to not and back to supporting them and then not like clockwork. I mean the M25 is always at a standstill anyway. On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby,* middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.*


Will no-one think of the middle class dads in their huge SUVs?


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Pretty much everything I would want to say somebody else as beaten me to it.
No I don't support them, they seem like a bunch of attention seeking prats.


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## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Uncertain how I feel about this. Agree with their aims but no doubt would have been pissed off if stuck behind them and had somewhere urgent to be.
> 
> Surely the Reclaim The Streets events in the 90s must have blocked ambulances as well as  mums in SUVs back in the day? I don’t know as I wasn’t there.
> 
> One of these was supported by urban and no doubt these boards can or could claim more than a few participants. The other one, 25 years or so forward, seems to be very unpopular.


That's because Urban is now full of middle aged people who drive everywhere and think their jobs are more important than anything else. You're completely right that the disruption is identical. I suspect support for RTS would be much lower amongst current urbanites than it was twenty years ago.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> The premise of your question comes across as stupid and devoid of thinking and imagination.
> 
> To me it's obvious, given some thought, how occupying such buildings is more effective than enraging people by blocking ambulances getting to their destinations.


It's not obvious to me, so could you talk me through it?


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## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Like everyone else on the thread so far, I support their aim but their actions are doing nothing more than pissing off people who can't do anything about it. Blockade Johnson's home or something so that HE is inconvenienced. Not ordinary people just trying to get to work/home/hospital/wherever.
> 
> Much like bloody Extinction Rebellion who just made it really difficult for me (and many others) to get home from work for 2 weeks when they were occupying Westminster Bridge.


Yeah and let's not forget the completely ridiculous tube thing .









						Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof
					

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.



					www.bbc.co.uk


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Will no-one think of the middle class dads in their huge SUVs?


Very good point Sue. I appologise as I said Mums as I was thinking about that Lady who they showed on the news who was shouting and dragging a protester ( plural noun is protestors apparently ) along the road to the curb.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby, middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.


You don't really care about them blocking ambulances then?


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Yeah and let's not forget the completely ridiculous tube thing .
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes - that was just mad IMO.
I totally understand that maximum disruption is the aim of actions like this but it's just alienating people who they really should be getting onside.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Grrr the poll is private, how am I supposed to keep my files up to date, if I don't know who's voted for the wrong option?


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## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Grrr the poll is private, how am I supposed to keep my files up to date, if I don't know who's voted for the wrong option?


I know who the only yes vote so far is and will tell you for five pounds.


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## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Yes - that was just mad IMO.
> I totally understand that maximum disruption is the aim of actions like this but it's just alienating people who they really should be getting onside.


Especially given the people affected by that were bloody using public transport.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> You don't really care about them blocking ambulances then?


No I do not support them stopping Ambulances at all, as I posted in the OP, of course I dont.


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> ...On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby, middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.


I actually find that quite offensive. All kinds of people are on the M25 every day, including women in SUVs who still need to get somewhere whatever your views on their lifestyle.


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Especially given the people affected by that were bloody using public transport.


Well quite.
And me trying to get home from work. On a bus. Which normally came over that bridge.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> I know who the only yes vote so far is and will tell you for five pounds.



You are already on the list.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Grrr the poll is private, how am I supposed to keep my files up to date, if I don't know who's voted for the wrong option?


Its the first time Ive done a Poll. I am not sure about how to change that and also am thinking it is correct to keep it private with just the results on show


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> That's not something I should have to explain.


You need to explain it to me, I can't imagine how occupying commercial buildings will pressure the Govt to do anything except possibly make it a criminal offence


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Do we support Insulate Britain in here or not? They are doing it for a very good reason, and the Government isnt doing anything to tackle climate change. But, they are also stopping Ambulances. My mind goes from supporting them to not and back to supporting them and then not like clockwork. I mean the M25 is always at a standstill anyway. On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby, middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.


this should be a public poll


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

I think most people are probably already aware of the threat posed by climate change anyway.


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## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> That's because Urban is now full of middle aged people who drive everywhere and think their jobs are more important than anything else. You're completely right that the disruption is identical. I suspect support for RTS would be much lower amongst current urbanites than it was twenty years ago.



RTS's protest tactics of reclaiming the streets aligned perfectly with their demand of reclaiming the streets. They wanted to block ambulances and SUV mums because they wanted to turn roads into pedestrian zones and acknowledged the consequences of that. People might not have agreed with their aims but nobody could claim that their protest method was counterproductive, because it was a direct temporary achievement of their demands.


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## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Its the first time Ive done a Poll. I am not sure about how to change that and also am thinking it is correct to keep it private with just the results on show



You can't change it to public, once people have voted.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> this should be a public poll


Is a Public Poll the common way of doing Polls in here? Or are they usually kept Private? I personally prefer Private because otherwise people might be swayed into voting with the Sheep to avoid persecution.


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> I know who the only yes vote so far is and will tell you for five pounds.


You were the number one suspect from the start


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> You can't change it to public, once people have voted.


OK thank you Cupid, I didnt know. That gets me out of it then


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is a Public Poll the common way of doing Polls in here? Or are they usually kept Private? I personally prefer Private because otherwise people might be swayed into voting with the Sheep to avoid persecution.


have you any actual evidence to support than opinion?


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Poll responses are not nuanced enough so I can't vote.


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is a Public Poll the common way of doing Polls in here? Or are they usually kept Private? I personally prefer Private because otherwise people might be swayed into voting with the Sheep to avoid persecution.


Voting with "the Sheep"?? 
Who are you? David Icke or something.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Voting with "the Sheep"??
> Who are you? David Icke or something.


maybe a kipper
i wouldn't be in the least surprised


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> have you any actual evidence to support than opinion?


Evidence? I personally can imagine a scenario whereby people who would vote one way, change their mind to vote the other way because they fear being victimised for it. The reason I favour Private is because it keeps a poll more honest.


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## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Do we support Insulate Britain in here or not? They are doing it for a very good reason, and the Government isnt doing anything to tackle climate change. But, they are also stopping Ambulances. My mind goes from supporting them to not and back to supporting them and then not like clockwork. I mean the M25 is always at a standstill anyway. On the other hand there is a satisfaction in them winding up gobby, middle class Mums, in huge SUV`s.


if this is the one you are talking about, theres a bloke there as well and they are both driving small hatchbacks, not suv's.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> You need to explain it to me, I can't imagine how occupying commercial buildings will pressure the Govt to do anything except possibly make it a criminal offence


Try giving it some thought. If you are incapable of seeing how occupying corportate headquarters and empty commercial buildings, and empty buildings in general, can not be effective then I don't see the point in attempting to explain it to you. I guess this is the problem, a lack of imagination and creativity - which is certainly the case with these Insulate Britain protests.

In general we need a movement that expropriates and requisitions from the the rich - seizing buildings is part of that. Taking back space and putting it to use, for us.

Taking back control.


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## Mrs Miggins (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Very good point Sue. I appologise as I said Mums as I was thinking about that Lady who they showed on the news who was shouting and dragging a protester ( plural noun is protestors apparently ) along the road to the curb.


"Lady"


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## Smokeandsteam (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> That's because Urban is now full of middle aged people who drive everywhere and think their jobs are more important than anything else. You're completely right that the disruption is identical. I suspect support for RTS would be much lower amongst current urbanites than it was twenty years ago.



I hate cars and car drivers: they make where I live much much much worse than it needs to be. They also cause sky high levels of pollution. Some car drivers shouldn't be in charge of anything outside of a padded cell. I also fully support the aims of IB. Yet, everything I see, read and hear about them indicates that Brogdale is essentially correct: they are alienating those who we need to win to our side. 

But you make a very good point about RTS though, more of us would have supported it, and did support it, when we were younger. I suspect we didn't concern ourselves much with how it played out in the wider constituency either.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> if this is the one you are talking about, theres a bloke there as well and they are both driving small hatchbacks, not suv's.



Good point. I have to be honest I cant take things very seriously sometimes and the Lady dragging a protester away was amusing. It was the one that stuck in my mind.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Blocking off that private airport was rad, was that them?


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

To be honest, and I haven't made up my mind about this, but I'm not sure about the whole idea of putting pressure on the government. Seems to me that it might be relying too much on people who have a vested interested in putting profits first.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Uncertain how I feel about this. Agree with their aims but no doubt would have been pissed off if stuck behind them and had somewhere urgent to be.
> 
> Surely the Reclaim The Streets events in the 90s must have blocked ambulances as well as  mums in SUVs back in the day? I don’t know as I wasn’t there.
> 
> One of these was supported by urban and no doubt these boards can or could claim more than a few participants. The other one, 25 years or so forward, seems to be very unpopular.


At RTS Brixton I seem to recall that a bus was let through the blockade fairly early on. 

I think "blocking ambulances" is a bit of a red herring - in the early stages of a roadblock both the traffic and the protestors would generally let them through afaik. After that, I assume the emergency services recalibrate and avoid the area.


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Try giving it some thought. If you are incapable of seeing how occupying corportate headquarters and empty commercial buildings, and empty buildings in general, can not be effective then I don't see the point in attempting to explain it to you. I guess this is the problem, a lack of imagination and creativity - which is certainly the case with these Insulate Britain protests.
> 
> In general we need a movement that expropriates and requisitions from the the rich - seizing buildings is part of that. Taking back space and putting it to use, for us.
> 
> Taking back control.


So no then, you can't explain it fair enough.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> To be honest, and I haven't made up my mind about this, but I'm not sure about the whole idea of putting pressure on the government. Seems to me that it might be relying too much on people who have a vested interested in putting profits first.


Not sure what other mechanism there is to roll out insulation nationwide? It's a reformist campaign.


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## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I assume the emergency services recalibrate and avoid the area.





Jeezus christ. They shouldn't have to avoid the area, it could lengthen their journey and cost lives. They're the emergency services FFS.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

100% support the protests.

In fact I think their demands are too moderate and - crucially - don't they're being disruptive enough.


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## RainbowTown (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Jeezus christ. They shouldn't have to avoid the area, it could lengthen their journey and cost lives.



Your cardiac arrest is being put on hold while we take a detour...............thank you for your patience.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> In fact I think their demands are too moderate and - crucially - don't they're being disruptive enough.


I wonder how disruptive a revolution would be.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Jeezus christ. They shouldn't have to avoid the area, it could lengthen their journey and cost lives. They're the emergency services FFS.



If we banned private cars the emergency services would be able to get everywhere quicker.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder how disruptive a revolution would be.



Still not as disruptive as climate change is already.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Is Climate Change really as bad as "they" sometimes make out that it is? The experts are saying there is huge evidence that Climate Change is due to current and past Human Society. The crux of it, is the question of whether Climate Change is due to us or or if it is due to the Earth going about its periodical changes.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

The evidence of climate change being caused by humans is so overwhelming that anyone saying otherwise is basically a flat earther. It's not a serious question.


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## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Jeezus christ. They shouldn't have to avoid the area, it could lengthen their journey and cost lives. They're the emergency services FFS.


Let's never do anything then?


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## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

If you obstruct people going about their lives you are gonna get punched at some point.


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## Maggot (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is Climate Change really as bad as "they" sometimes make out that it is? The experts are saying there is huge evidence that Climate Change is due to current and past Human Society. The crux of it, is the question of whether Climate Change is due to us or or if it is due to the Earth going about its periodical changes.


Of course it's caused by us. Natural changes to climate take many thousands of years.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> If you obstruct people going about their lives you are gonna get punched at some point.



True.

...but if you're gonna get punched, arrrsted and imprisoned you might as well go harder than they currently are and really bring things to a grinding halt.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> If you obstruct people going about their lives you are gonna get punched at some point.


You could make the same argument against train strikes. Or any protest or campaign that causes any kind of disruption. The disruption is the whole point though.


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> The evidence of climate change being caused by humans is so overwhelming that anyone saying otherwise is basically a flat earther. It's not a serious question.


I also am of the opinion that this is so. However it hasnt yet been proven, as far as I know. But then if I am putting my rollers in I am a bit dim.


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## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> If you obstruct people going about their lives you are gonna get punched at some point.


I was working in London for a week during the Extinction Rebellion protests in October 2019. 2 of the people I was working with were very late on the Wednesday due to XR blocking tube trains. One guy had climbed on top of one of them and glued his hand to it. Bit of an unwise move since some commuters had dragged him off (minus some skin presumably) and beaten him up.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> I also am of the opinion that this is so. However it hasnt yet been proven, as far as I know. But then if I am putting my rollers in I am a bit dim.


Its been "proven" for decades.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Evidence? I personally can imagine a scenario whereby people who would vote one way, change their mind to vote the other way because they fear being victimised for it. The reason I favour Private is because it keeps a poll more honest.


yeh but what evidence do you have - what is there to support - your view?


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is Climate Change really as bad as "they" sometimes make out that it is? The experts are saying there is huge evidence that Climate Change is due to current and past Human Society. The crux of it, is the question of whether Climate Change is due to us or or if it is due to the Earth going about its periodical changes.


I remember the climate debate 20 years ago, and it was all about stopping it melting the permafrost and making it self perpetuating.....

Did notice rather a lot of Siberia on fire a while back.


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## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Is Climate Change really as bad as "they" sometimes make out that it is?



Have you not been paying attention to the news recently? Entire parts of countries have been going up in smoke. Temperature records are being broken frequently. That kind of thing can only happen if global average temperatures are increasing.


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## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> I also am of the opinion that this is so. However it hasnt yet been proven, as far as I know. But then if I am putting my rollers in I am a bit dim.


it's been proven. it's just that the flat earthers own large parts of the media and donate huge sums to political parties in this case


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## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Maggot said:


> Of course it's caused by us. Natural changes to climate take many thousands of years.


I agree it points very much to this. However the Earth does cycle through Ice ages and what have you, periodically and some say it is this. I am of the opinion it is caused by us.


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## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> You could make the same argument against train strikes. Or any protest or campaign that causes any kind of disruption. The disruption is the whole point though.


Disruption only causes resentment and has little or no impact. Economics has impact. Money. Wealth. Capitalism.


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## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> If you obstruct people going about their lives you are gonna get punched at some point.


Excellent motto


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Disruption only causes resentment and has little or no impact. Economics has impact. Money. Wealth. Capitalism.



Yep. That's why the disruption needs to escalate to the point it hits profit.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Have you not been paying attention to the news recently? Entire parts of countries have been going up in smoke. Temperature records are being broken frequently. That kind of thing can only happen if global average temperatures are increasing.


Yes I have and absolutely agree with you. I have been saying it for decades about the weather changing since I was a kid. However am just saying objectively that some say it might be because of the Earth going through its periodical Ice age thing ( which I personally dont think is so ).


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> I agree it points very much to this. However the Earth does cycle through Ice ages and what have you, periodically and *some say it is this*. I am of the opinion it is caused by us.



Who is saying that? Shills for the fossil fuels industry?


----------



## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yep. That's why the disruption needs to escalate to the point it hits profit.


That won’t work either.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

...as we used say back in the EF! days "make the costs caused by the protests  greater than the profits they would've made".


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yeh but what evidence do you have - what is there to support - your view?


I dont need to go existential. My view is subjective and it is my choice.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> That won’t work either.


History suggests it does.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yep. That's why the disruption needs to escalate to the point it hits profit.


Yeah and you can't just erupt into that large scale disruption, it has to start somewhere.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Who is saying that? Shills for the fossil fuels industry?


Mostly, yes. Most Scientist seem to be of the opinion it is caused by us. Yes those that disagree seem to mostly be shills for oil comapny types.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> You could make the same argument against train strikes. Or any protest or campaign that causes any kind of disruption. The disruption is the whole point though.


what about bombs? should they use bombs? that would cause some disruption.
A strike is a collective class action. this is more akin to individual terrorism.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> That won’t work either.


What's your plan?

Bonus Q: Should we remove votes for women because of the disruption caused by the suffragettes?


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> what about bombs? should they use bombs? that would cause some disruption.


I think we have some way to go before the campaign for warm homes reaches its military phase, personally.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> Yeah and you can't just erupt into that large scale disruption, it has to start somewhere.


Yep.

If the "cost to business" caused by these protests starts to approach the cost putting in all that insulation I think we'd see them win pretty quickly afterwards.


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> What's your plan?
> 
> Bonus Q: Should we remove votes for women because of the disruption caused by the suffragettes?


pockets, it started with pockets.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Disruption only causes resentment and has little or no impact. Economics has impact. Money. Wealth. Capitalism



Stopping people getting to work has an economic impact


----------



## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I think we have some way to go before the campaign for warm homes reaches its military phase, personally.


the same path. individual actions instead of class based collective action.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> What's your plan?
> 
> Bonus Q: Should we remove votes for women because of the disruption caused by the suffragettes?



Did the suffragettes protests hasten or delay parliament extending votes to women?


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Mostly, yes. Most Scientist seem to be of the opinion it is caused by us. Yes those that disagree seem to mostly be shills for oil comapny types.



The consensus from the experts is overwhelming. Anthropogenic climate change is as nailed-on a certainty as you can get in science.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> class based collective action.


Do one of them then.


----------



## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> History suggests it does.


Could you give an example?


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> the same path. individual actions instead of class based collective action.



Yes.

A global general strike would bring about change pretty quickly.

In the meantime?


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Disruption only causes resentment and has little or no impact. Economics has impact. Money. Wealth. Capitalism.


Are you sure about this? Climate change is a significant political hot potato atm, one that they're at least making efforts to appear to take seriously. Would that be the case without the various campaigns that have sprung up over the last few years, especially the ones that have caused disruption? I wouldn't have thought so. Just because an action doesn't have an immediate measurable impact doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact...


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The consensus from the experts is overwhelming. Anthropogenic climate change is as nailed-on a certainty as you can get in science.


Yes it is and I agree with it being the reason. However some Scientists, from what I remember, as I might have been putting my rollers in, still say it might be because of the Earths periodical changes. I like to be as objective as I can be, and not base things on my own opinion.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Did the suffragettes protests hasten or delay parliament extending votes to women?


Is this the 'sugragettes alienated the public and liberal capitalism would have given them the vote quicker if left alone' argument? I've only ever heard obvious twats and Tories come out with this one (which is obviously unchanged by your using it). Do you have proof of any kind?


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> Could you give an example?



The government's road building programme of the 1990s.

An opencast quarry near Caerfilli.

The closure of the FE campus I studied at.

Bilingual road signs in Wales...


----------



## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Do one of them then.


i will when the opportunity arrives, or we collectively create that opportunity.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> the same path. individual actions instead of class based collective action.


This is indeed a problem with Insulate Britain. 

Class based collective action would also cause disruption though. Look at how het up people get during tube strikes.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Yes it is and I agree with it being the reason. However some Scientists, from what I remember, as I might have been putting my rollers in, still say it might be because of the Earths periodical changes. I like to be as objective as I can be, and not base things on my own opinion.



Scientific consensus isn't a matter of opinion. The germ theory of disease is scientific consensus, and it is not merely an opinion.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> I like to be as objective as I can be, and not base things on my own opinion.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yep.
> 
> If the "cost to business" caused by these protests starts to approach the cost putting in all that insulation I think we'd see them win pretty quickly afterwards.


The  cost of meeting their demands has been projected at £18 Billion, a few dozen nuts with near zero public support is going to have to up its game to cause that much disruption.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Is this the 'sugragettes alienated the public and liberal capitalism would have given them the vote quicker if left alone' argument? I've only ever heard obvious twats and Tories come out with this one (which is obviously unchanged by your using it). Do you have proof of any kind?



Most historians. Do your own reading.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> This is indeed a problem with Insulate Britain.
> 
> Class based collective action would also cause disruption though. Look at how het up people get during tube strikes.


look how het up people are got up during tube strikes, when only one side of the story appears in the media


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Most historians. Do your own reading.


most historians have never studied or written about the period let alone the cause of votes for women


----------



## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yes.
> 
> A global general strike would bring about change pretty quickly.
> 
> In the meantime?


this is how the red army faction got started.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> this is how the red army faction got started.


And we're not even allowed sports cars now.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Scientific consensus isn't a matter of opinion. The germ theory of disease is scientific consensus, and it is not merely an opinion.


Yes I agree and to reiterrate what I said, I personally agree with them. There are some Scientists who disagree. It is also a fact that some Scientists think that it is because of the Earths periodical. It is a fact that some scientists disagree, I personally think they are incorrect, but there are some Scientists who think it is caused by the Earths periodical.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

Yeah, fuck it, I support 'em. 

Bunch of softie boomers you lot nowadays


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 14, 2021)

Support? 

In principle yes, in practice no


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The  cost of meeting their demands has been projected at £18 Billion, a few dozen nuts with near zero public support is going to have to up its game to cause that much disruption.


Absolutely.

More disruption needed.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 14, 2021)

It's obvious to me we have a climate emergency.  For some people its too much to deal with so just ignore it, not an unusual human response in a crisis as see also Covid. Some people whether consciously or sub-consciously are doing a mental calculation that they will probably be dead by the time the shit really hits the fan.  Weirdly these people often have kids but that's another matter.

I think having a more targeted approach in itself is a decent approach.  The problem is so vast and complicated that having a single demand which you put all your focus into I'm not against at all.

I'm fortunate to live in a modern well insulated home and it's ace, it really is.  Our bills (before the latest chaos) have been hovering around £50 per month for years (gas & electric).  We've not got the heating on yet, generally it doesn't go on until late November.  Even when it does go on its only for a couple of hours in the morning and a couple in the evening.  We never need the heating on at night,, in fact we don't even have a winter duvet, we are fine with a light spring / autumn one. 

As I write this I am working from home with all our windows open.

The problems I have with Insulate Britain is that scale and complexity of insulating our old housing stock is mind blowing and the implications are far reaching.  I do think there is a 'law of unintended consequences' thing going on here as well and having read their website they seem pretty open about lacking expertise in the area.

I also think their current tactics whilst brave are more likely to alienate then win people to the cause.  Targeting government, business and the people who are the ones who have the power to bring about change would perhaps be more effective.  

In short, yes I think they're right but sadly I don't think they are going to achieve anything.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

discokermit said:


> this is how the red army faction got started.



Yeah. I do agree with you, but tbqh if they went all Baader-Meinhof on oil execs and the like I wouldn't shed any tears.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2021)

Now that runaway climate change has arrived and will be kicking the shit out of the world with increasing severity every year for the rest of our lives, would anybody argue that environmental protests in the '90s went too far?


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Yeah. I do agree with you, but tbqh if they went all Baader-Meinhof on oil execs and the like I wouldn't shed any tears.



...though such a campaign wouldn't be sustainable, just as Insulate Britain's isn't.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Now that runaway climate change has arrived and will be kicking the shit out of the world with increasing severity every year for the rest of our lives, would anybody argue that environmental protests in the '90s went too far?



Not far enough.


----------



## discokermit (Oct 14, 2021)

what makes me laugh is that despite their stupid backpacks providing a handy way for people to drag them out of the way, they are so middle class they can't abandon them.
i wonder how many of them are landlords.


----------



## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Are you sure about this? Climate change is a significant political hot potato atm, one that they're at least making efforts to appear to take seriously. Would that be the case without the various campaigns that have sprung up over the last few years, especially the ones that have caused disruption? I wouldn't have thought so. Just because an action doesn't have an immediate measurable impact doesn't mean it doesn't have an impact...


I would suggest that there has not been significant change or progress in reducing carbon emissions. And that there won’t be until there is an economic driver towards doing so. 

Maybe you are right and changing public opinion will be part of that economic driver, and that disruptive protest changes opinion. I remain unconvinced but it’s possible. Is this what you think? Maybe I’m too cynical.


----------



## Edie (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> The government's road building programme of the 1990s.
> 
> An opencast quarry near Caerfilli.
> 
> ...


I can’t tell if you’re being serious.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> with increasing severity


That reminds me of one of the Poems in Les Fleurs du Mal by Charles Baudelaire. Le Soleil.

Le Soleil (The Sun) by Charles Baudelaire

Along the old street on whose cottages are hung 
The slatted shutters which hide secret lecheries, 
When the cruel sun strikes with increased blows 
The city, the country, the roofs, and the wheat fields,


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 14, 2021)

I've been a bit torn on this. I'm not botherd about the disruption per se and have been on disruptive protests, but it does matter somewhat what other people think of you. Of course you're not trying to win over die-hard Tories or anything, but there are a lot of people floating in the middle. Ideally when working on an issue where broad consensus on change is one of the goals, you want to do actions that the passers-by want to join in.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> I can’t tell if you’re being serious.


All things that I've personal experience of seeing change caused by disruptive protests hitting the 'bottom line' of those making the decisions.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I've been a bit torn on this. I'm not botherd about the disruption per se and have been on disruptive protests, but it does matter somewhat what other people think of you. Of course you're not trying to win over die-hard Tories or anything, but there are a lot of people floating in the middle. Ideally when working on an issue where broad consensus on change is one of the goals, you want to do actions that the passers-by want to join in.


yeh you want actions which people are ready to replicate. and i daresay that blocking motorways is a rather niche pastime


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> I've been a bit torn on this. I'm not botherd about the disruption per se and have been on disruptive protests, but it does matter somewhat what other people think of you. Of course you're not trying to win over die-hard Tories or anything, but there are a lot of people floating in the middle. Ideally when working on an issue where broad consensus on change is one of the goals, you want to do actions that the passers-by want to join in.


Thing is that their stated goal is exactly to 'win over die hard tories', they want to force government to do stuff not individuals. 
Their website says the goal is 'That the UK government immediately promises to fully fund and take responsibility for the insulation of all social housing in Britain by 2025' .
That's a good goal. But their actions look like awareness raising, which imo is not any more what's needed, as people are aware. I am confused by it all and i ticked i dont know.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Brainaddict said:


> , you want to do actions that the passers-by want to join in.



I think this is a really important criticism.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

...what's that old line about "critical but unconditional support"?


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

I think Insulate Britain should blow up an ambulance, radicalise the moderates.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 14, 2021)

Or smash up a bus shelter.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

What if mass refusal to pay energy bills until you get insulation. If that’s their aim which they say it is.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2021)

Smother leading Tories in rolls of insulation.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Smother leading Tories in rolls of insulation.


yeh freeze them and wrap them in sustainable insulation - perhaps wool-based - to help preserve them on their way to the pengo factory in grytviken


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

For the nerds - this whole issue of class composition of green movements is identical to the stuff Midnight Notes was going on about with nuclear power in the late 1970s. 





__





						Midnight Notes vol 01 #01 (1979) – Strange Victories
					

First issue of the autonomist journal Midnight Notes. From http://www.midnightnotes.org/mnpublic.html




					libcom.org
				








__





						Midnight Notes vol 01 #02 – No Future Notes: the Work/Energy Crisis & The Anti-Nuclear Movement
					

Second issue of the autonomist Midnight Notes journal.




					libcom.org
				




What I like about them is their generosity and good humour I think. A recognition that perfect movements do not spring into the world from nowhere. That having something to criticise, that people can learn from, is better than having nothing.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Yes I agree and to reiterrate what I said, I personally agree with them. There are some Scientists who disagree. It is also a fact that some Scientists think that it is because of the Earths periodical. It is a fact that some scientists disagree, I personally think they are incorrect, but there are some Scientists who think it is caused by the Earths periodical.



Why are you so fixated on the tiny minority of scientists who don't think the current warming is anthropogenic? There's going to be a tiny minority of idiots in every profession, and scientists are no exception.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

You can't win with some people -- the old "you won't win any friends with that kind of protest" mob which many of you now belong to. All the victories the working class won were won through disruptive protest. Someone mentioned women's suffrage. I bet there were a lot of men at the time saying "Well yes of course in principle I think women should be allowed to vote, but these protests, well, it's all a bit too much isn't it? Almost turns one away from the idea!"

When XR blocked public transport they were rightly decried for targeting the very thing that they shouldn't. Now Insulate Britain are blocking roads -- i.e. private transport, not public, and we get a bunch of fucking moaning about inconveniencing "normal people".

Fuck's sake


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Why are you so fixated on the tiny minority of scientists who don't think the current warming is anthropogenic? There's going to be a tiny minority of idiots in every profession, and scientists are no exception.


Conversely, in History the majority of Scientists have agreed on one thing and a minority on another, and it turned out that the minority were correct. One always has to be objective where one can be. In truth most say it is and some say it isnt.. Thats a fact.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2021)

Edie said:


> I can’t tell if you’re being serious.


The successful attack at the Gleneagles Spar shop at the G8 summit


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Conversely, in History the majority of Scientists have agreed on one thing and a minority on another, and it turned out that the minority were correct. One always has to be objective where one can be. In truth most say it is and some say it isnt.. Thats a fact.



You've got it completely backwards. The way to be objective is to look at the _evidence_. The _evidence_ for anthropogenic warming is beyond all reasonable doubt, which is why the consensus exists among scientists.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I bet there were a lot of men at the time saying "Well yes of course in principle I think women should be allowed to vote, but these protests, well, it's all a bit too much isn't it? Almost turns one away from the idea!"


A man said this in this thread today.


----------



## Fedayn (Oct 14, 2021)

Their aim yes, laudable and should be welcome.
Their tactics screams of middle class tantrums, aimless, annoying and I think counterproductive.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> You've got it completely backwards. The way to be objective is to look at the _evidence_. The _evidence_ for anthropogenic warming is beyond all reasonable doubt, which is why the consensus exists among scientists.


No, you arent reading what I am saying. I am saying I agree very much so with the Scientist majority that it is us causing it. I am also being objective in truth that there is a tiny majority of Scientists who disagree and say its the natural periodical of the Earths changes. That is true, it is a fact, there ARE some Scientists who say it isnt, I dont agree with them, but it is true to say that there are!
Franz Mesmer or whatwashisname, ask him if you can, he was popular a while back too.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> You can't win with some people -- the old "you won't win any friends with that kind of protest" mob which many of you now belong to. All the victories the working class won were won through disruptive protest. Someone mentioned women's suffrage. I bet there were a lot of men at the time saying "Well yes of course in principle I think women should be allowed to vote, but these protests, well, it's all a bit too much isn't it? Almost turns one away from the idea!"
> 
> When XR blocked public transport they were rightly decried for targeting the very thing that they shouldn't. Now Insulate Britain are blocking roads -- i.e. private transport, not public, and we get a bunch of fucking moaning about inconveniencing "normal people".
> 
> Fuck's sake


Most of the suffragettes were largely middle class women with time on their hands (much like XR tbh)  working class women of the time were far too busy to worry about something as useless to them as a vote.
There has been some research that the 'tipping' point of protests effecting non-violent change is when from 3-5% of the population support it. 
There is a brilliant line in the film Suffragete where one of the characters says to a cop (the ever talented Brendan Gleason, can't remember the actress) "What are you going to do lock us all up? We're half the human race"
IB and XR are like 0.0000001% of the UK's population, they don't enjoy popular support and never will.


----------



## Brainaddict (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> You can't win with some people -- the old "you won't win any friends with that kind of protest" mob which many of you now belong to. All the victories the working class won were won through disruptive protest. Someone mentioned women's suffrage. I bet there were a lot of men at the time saying "Well yes of course in principle I think women should be allowed to vote, but these protests, well, it's all a bit too much isn't it? Almost turns one away from the idea!"
> 
> When XR blocked public transport they were rightly decried for targeting the very thing that they shouldn't. Now Insulate Britain are blocking roads -- i.e. private transport, not public, and we get a bunch of fucking moaning about inconveniencing "normal people".
> 
> Fuck's sake


It's not about making friends, it's about having a coherent strategy to get the change you want. We've got a government that doesn't give a fuck about this sort of thing, therefore I think their goal is to make the pressure on the govt so widespread that they have to give in and do it anyway. But to do that you need more people to join you so that it becomes normalised as an expectation of the government. Pissing off ordinary people is a funny way to do that. There are all sorts of protests and actions where popular opinion does not matter, but in this case it does. 

The whole thing is not a strategy I would use btw, that's not really my point, but in the strategy they've chosen, public opinion matters, and the form of their action isn't coherent with that.


----------



## A380 (Oct 14, 2021)

The tortuous thought process of deciding whether you support Insulate Britain or not
					

ONE minute you think they’ve got a point, the next they’re desperately annoying f**kwits blocking your route to Tesco. Do you support Insulate Britain or not?




					www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> No, you arent reading what I am saying. I am saying I agree very much so with the Scientist majority that it is us causing it. I am also being objective in truth that there is a tiny majority of Scientists who disagree and say its the natural periodical of the Earths changes. That is true, it is a fact, there ARE some Scientists who say it isnt, I dont agree with them, but it is true to say that there are!
> Franz Mesmer or whatwashisname, ask him if you can, he was popular a while back too.



Now you're not reading what *I* am saying. Mesmerism was rejected because there is no evidence to support it. It's the evidence that matters.

So what if there are climate scientists who reject the evidence? There are also Young-Earth Creationists with PhDs in Astrophysics. They're irrelevant.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Do I think they're making strategical mistakes? Yes.

Do I think they're making tactical mistakes? Yes.

Are some of them annoying middle-class wankers and hypocrites? It's certainly possible.

Do I _still_ support them? Yes.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

Yossarian said:


> Now that runaway climate change has arrived and will be kicking the shit out of the world with increasing severity every year for the rest of our lives, would anybody argue that environmental protests in the '90s went too far?


Exactly.


Brainaddict said:


> It's not about making friends, it's about having a coherent strategy to get the change you want. We've got a government that doesn't give a fuck about this sort of thing, therefore I think their goal is to make the pressure on the govt so widespread that they have to give in and do it anyway. But to do that you need more people to join you so that it becomes normalised as an expectation of the government. Pissing off ordinary people is a funny way to do that. There are all sorts of protests and actions where popular opinion does not matter, but in this case it does.
> 
> The whole thing is not a strategy I would use btw, that's not really my point, but in the strategy they've chosen, public opinion matters, and the form of their action isn't coherent with that.


Good job loads of people have tons of ideas for forms of protest which are nice and friendly and get lots of passerby involved in having a jolly good time without creating too much inconvenience then, isn't it. 

The disruption of capital is the only thing which can force government (and corporate action). We need both. As we've established many times, individuals recycling their glass bottles and turning the lights off when they're not in the room is not going to save the planet.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Most of the suffragettes are largely middle class women with time on their hands --  working class women are  far too busy to worry about something as useless to them as a vote.


Changed to present tense and deleted reference to XR to give us a snapshot of what urban would have been like if it had been founded in 1885 and the users were all a bunch of softie boomers by the time the suffragette protests came around. "Middle class" as an insult to protestors. Real _working class _people don't have time to protest for something _useless_


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 14, 2021)

There must be a more effective way for this protest to work.  Hold all the doors open in public buildings, all turn on the kettle at the same time, bombard town planning departments with spurious applications/inquiries...   don't know what but something better than pissing off the people who they need on their side


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> I wonder how disruptive a revolution would be.




Should go full Khmer Rouge. Anyone educated above GCSE level for the chop. Should lower the UK's CO2 emissions too, as the boffs seems to puff out a lot of hot air.


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Most of the suffragettes were largely middle class women with time on their hands (much like XR tbh)  working class women of the time were far too busy to worry about something as useless to them as a vote.



Worth a read: British Library


----------



## Chilli.s (Oct 14, 2021)

Successive governments aren't able to even build enough homes to house the population let alone insulate the current housing stock. It's just too challenging for them


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Someone mentioned women's suffrage. I bet there were a lot of men at the time saying "Well yes of course in principle I think women should be allowed to vote, but these protests, well, it's all a bit too much isn't it? Almost turns one away from the idea!"


This is a way in which inconveniencing and annoying people is a winner. People are conservative and are always looking for reasons to object. Allow them to object to your means, and it helps to build a consensus that your aims are sound.


----------



## BillRiver (Oct 14, 2021)

It does feel a bit wierd when so many sleep on the streets (and even more are in precarious renting situations) to be asking for insulation on homes not everyone has.

Mind, concensus on the psych ward last week (patients being predominantly working class women of colour/Irish women, including many with lived experience of homelesness) was very much in favour of them.


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Exactly.
> 
> Good job loads of people have tons of ideas for forms of protest which are nice and friendly and get lots of passerby involved in having a jolly good time without creating too much inconvenience then, isn't it.
> 
> The disruption of capital is the only thing which can force government (and corporate action). We need both. As we've established many times, individuals recycling their glass bottles and turning the lights off when they're not in the room is not going to save the planet.



Is this type of blocking traffic really disrupting capital, or is it really disrupting a mix of people doing a variety of things, only some of which will be a disruption of capital - unless you use a very expansive definition of that? One of my criticisms is that this type of action happens as those doing it (through no fault of their own) are largely unable to disrupt capital in any significant way, so end up doing things like this as it has a high impact publicity and disruption wise.

I'm not sure if I think this type of thing is  a good idea at all tbh, I am open to being convinced, but currently I'm erring that on balance it does much more damage support wise than it does forcing the governments hand to enact their demands. And I don't see it as a 'building a movement' type thing either. I also suspect that it might even harden the government's position as it can't be seen to give in to this type of thing.

(Haven't read the rest of the 6 pages, will go and do that now...).


----------



## T & P (Oct 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Poll responses are not nuanced enough so I can't vote.



If I had it my way all Urban polls would henceforth be conducted in this manner:


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Now you're not reading what *I* am saying. Mesmerism was rejected because there is no evidence to support it. It's the evidence that matters.


Exactly, and there were people who agreed with him. You are setting yourself up with a false opposition here. I am relating objective truth and you are arguing that the minority are wrong. I keep stating that I agree with the majority. There is a fact also that a minority of Scientists disagree. Are you denying that there is a minority of Scientists that disagree, or do you agree that they exist?


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

Not had chance to read this entire thread but some really shit thinking on display here.

I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.

There is or was a certain poster on here that armchair critiqued stuff the entire time - _I_ would have done blah, _they _haven't given any focus to blah - and well, just fuck off and protest yourself then eh? Not to mention the myriad sects of the left that will disown anything that isn't fully conformant with their one true path.

You can't criticise them for minor consequences either. An ambulance can't get through (not even true, IIRC). So what? The revolution will not be _convenient_. Even if you played this exactly right, someone will invent something to try and discredit you. Don't fucking _go with it_, FFS. And if it alienates people, even the majority, are we supposed to give a fuck? Again - you want what, focus grouped mild reformism? You know what else alienates the public? Dying in a flood or a fire.

And you definitely can't criticise them for enraging the government who bring in laws about it. You've got to be thick as mince to utter that.

You _can _criticise them - to an extent - for stuff like being long term holistically counterproductive, or just a self-indulgent waste of energy. I really don't have a very high opinion of XR for this kind of reason. But I'm still not totally comfortable slagging them off. They're doing something that I'm not. It could be much better but that's more on everybody else to muster that than it is on them to get it right.

TL;DR: get a fucking grip you liberal dickheads.


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2021)

Mrs Miggins said:


> Well quite.
> And me trying to get home from work. On a bus. Which normally came over that bridge.


I'm guessing that the choice of Westminster Bridge was at least partly symbolic, what with it being right outside the Houses of Parliament. 

As  a more general point, causing disruption by blocking roads is a pretty blunt instrument, and is always going to inconvenience some people who it would be better not to inconvenience or alienate (unless it's possible to allow buses and ambulances through, but not private cars, which I think would be impractical).

So does that mean (general question, not just for you) that any sort of protest which might cause disruption and inconvenience is off limits?


----------



## NoXion (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Exactly, and there were people who agreed with him. You are setting yourself up with a false opposition here. I am relating objective truth and you are arguing that the minority are wrong.



Because the _evidence_ says that they're wrong. The fact that they have qualifications in climate science is immaterial.


Serene said:


> I keep stating that I agree with the majority.



Which is precisely the wrong way to go about things. What is your assessment of the _evidence?_



Serene said:


> There is a fact also that a miority of Scientists disagree. Are you denying that there is a minority of Scientists that disagree, or do you agree that they exist?



I agree that they exist. But so fucking what? Flat Earthers exist. But what actually matters is what the _evidence_ shows.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> There must be a more effective way for this protest to work.  Hold all the doors open in public buildings, all turn on the kettle at the same time, bombard town planning departments with spurious applications/inquiries...   don't know what but something better than pissing off the people who they need on their side


They could start breaking into people's houses and illicitly installing insulation like Robert de Niro in Brazil, but I suspect that'd be quite difficult to organise?


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.


I don't agree. If shit activism turns people off what you're trying to achieve, surely it's better to work out what non-shit activism looks like before cracking on?

Sometimes doing nothing is definitely better than doing something if that something is rubbish/counterproductive.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Because the _evidence_ says that they're wrong. The fact that they have qualifications in climate science is immaterial.
> 
> 
> Which is precisely the wrong way to go about things. What is your assessment of the _evidence?_
> ...


All I said was that there is a minority of Scientists that disagree. It is a statement of fact, nothing more, nothing less. Just as I would say there was a single red car parked on a street earlier amongst the other colours of cars parked. It is a statement of fact.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Not had chance to read this entire thread but some really shit thinking on display here.
> 
> I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.
> 
> ...


You can also criticise them for having only one tool in their repertoire of action, which is blocking roads.

I don't think shit activism is actually worse than no activism - things that play poorly with a great number of people, eg the xr train bollocks or this spate of major road blockings - alienate a lot of people who are, or were, really or potentially sympathetic to the cause ib espouse. It poisons the well for other environmental groups with better politics.

You also presume ib are on the left, of which I'm not as persuaded as you are. I think their activism is substitutionist, elitist, and frankly misguided as it stands zero chance of achieving its stated goals. It's not even a good stunt


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> I don't agree. If shit activism turns people off what you're trying to achieve, surely it's better to work out what non-shit activism looks like before cracking on?
> 
> Sometimes doing nothing is definitely better than doing something if that something is rubbish/counterproductive.


Take the briefest look at the rich history of human protest. It's not a tapestry of perfect, universally applauded schemes, is it? Usually it's clumsy and grubby and contentious.

'Counterproductive' is subjective. Will Insulate Britain get what they want? Is what they want even remotely the answer? In my uninformed opinion, probably not on either count. But do they further normalise climate activism? Do they encourage others to do better? Maybe. So in a different scope it's no longer counterproductive, is it?


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> I don't agree. If shit activism turns people off what you're trying to achieve, surely it's better to work out what non-shit activism looks like before cracking on?
> 
> Sometimes doing nothing is definitely better than doing something if that something is rubbish/counterproductive.



Yes, the same principle applies to insulating homes. Perhaps civil servants are as we speak carefully working out a scheme that would be messed up if the government bounced them into pushing out some half-baked strategy in response to people sitting on motorways touting some half-baked demands.


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.



Assuming you need to have some definition of what your politics are though right, you don't just support any protest or actions no matter what? And then you have to have some coherence between your politics and the protests and actions?

I'm just not sure I can see much of a connecting line between my politics and Insulate Britain's road blocking. But I know things are messy, and movements can be contradictory, with 'good' and 'bad' bits, and the goal is to encourage the 'good' bits. But one way you do that is criticising the 'bad' bits surely? We're not publishing tracts in newspapers slagging them off, just thinking these things through on one thread on a small message board.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Assuming you need to have some definition of what your politics are though right, you don't just support any protest or actions no matter what? And then you have to have some coherence between your politics and the protests and actions?
> 
> I'm just not sure I can see much of a connecting line between my politics and Insulate Britain's road blocking.


I don't need to _support _them as such; that's distinct from criticising them or supporting their detractors.

Even a protest where I actively disagree with the goal is at least interesting. It demonstrates a capacity to organise, possibly against the interests of a common enemy (e.g. the state). It's evidence of a power that could be channelled more constructively. Probably better to think about how to leverage that than how to deride it.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> They could start breaking into people's houses and illicitly installing insulation like Robert de Niro in Brazil, but I suspect that'd be quite difficult to organise?


I insulated mine out of my own pocket, If they broke in and left a refund cheque on the kitchen table I would probably take a much more supportive view of them.


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Take the briefest look at the rich history of human protest. It's not a tapestry of perfect, universally applauded schemes, is it? Usually it's clumsy and grubby and contentious.
> 
> 'Counterproductive' is subjective. Will Insulate Britain get what they want? Is what they want even remotely the answer? In my uninformed opinion, probably not on either count. But do they further normalise climate activism? Do they encourage others to do better? Maybe. So in a different scope it's no longer counterproductive, is it?


An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.

Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.) 

Would doing nothing have been better on that occasion? Yes, yes it would.









						Extinction Rebellion protesters dragged from Tube train roof
					

Extinction Rebellion says it will "take stock" of the reaction to the action for future protests.



					www.bbc.co.uk


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> I don't agree. If shit activism turns people off what you're trying to achieve, surely it's better to work out what non-shit activism looks like before cracking on?
> 
> Sometimes doing nothing is definitely better than doing something if that something is rubbish/counterproductive.


Absolutely.

If that shit activism:

a) reduces the capacity of those activists in other, better, actions.
b) pushes people who would otherwise be moving towards starting take (better?) action away
c) the action itself materially harms whatever is being defended.

I'm not sure any if those apply to IB.

I don't think it's drawing activists and energy away from other, better, actions (at the moment)

I don't there's another, better, campaign in wings that people are being driven away from.

I have loads of reservations and criticisms of IB (and XR). 

Would I do this? No. 

Would I advocate or encourage others to do so? No. 

Would I prefer something else? Yes.

But, still, I continue to support it.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

I wonder if them suspending their action has anything to do with reports that paperwork is being completed to fast-track some of them to court, and off to prison.   

I bet once a few find themselves being locked-up, the other couple of dozen will melt away.









						Insulate Britain announces it's suspending its campaign of 'civil resistance' in letter to PM
					

The protest group, which has been causing chaos by blocking major roads around London in recent weeks, said it would suspend the campaign "ahead of COP26".




					news.sky.com


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes, the same principle applies to insulating homes. Perhaps civil servants are as we speak carefully working out a scheme that would be messed up if the government bounced them into pushing out some half-baked strategy in response to people sitting on motorways touting some half-baked demands.


_let's just sit tight and wait for the civil servants to rescue us, lads. _


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I wonder if them suspending their action has anything to do with reports that paperwork is being completed to fast-track some of them to court, and off to prison.
> 
> I bet once a few find themselves being locked-up, the other couple of dozen will melt away.
> 
> ...



Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.
> 
> Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.)
> 
> ...


It's slightly weird watching that knowing that somewhere in that crowd are at least 2 people I know, my memory is strong though. I thought they were late in on Wed but 17th Oct 2019 was a Thu. 
memory fading is a sign of getting older though.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

T & P said:


> If I had it my way all Urban polls would henceforth be conducted in this manner:
> 
> View attachment 292665


The paramilitary wing of Kraftwerk.


----------



## MickiQ (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.


community driven activism cuts both ways


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> An example of a shit action that was counterproductive was the XR tube action.
> 
> Wrong target, wrong strategy, unclear what they were hoping to achieve by it. (And I imagine the people affected by it now think XR are complete tossers.)
> 
> ...


Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you _really _don't like.

I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.

The question this inevitably confronts _you _with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Probably also due to the increasing willingness of the public to take direct action against the protesters I'd have thought. Some of them didn't look too comfortable the last few days.



Yeah, that as well, because so far the general public have been fairly restrained, but sooner or later some of protesters are likely to get a kicking.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Absolutely.
> 
> If that shit activism...


Is there a version of Godwin's Law about how long a thread about activism can go on for before someone posts that bit from As We See It? Or something from Give Up Activism, one or the other.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

I guess that my forthcoming unveiling of The Urban75 Workers' Truck Bomb is going to be met with some dismay.

Oh well, back to work.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is there a version of Godwin's Law about how long a thread about activism can go on for before someone posts that bit from As We See It? Or something from Give Up Activism, one or the other.



* deletes post *


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

Also, shit, I'm sure I remember seeing something really interesting about the triangle of movements being inclusive, democratic, and politically coherent, and how it's difficult/impossible to have all three - does anyone know/remember the thing I'm on about?


----------



## BillRiver (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you _really _don't like.
> 
> I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.
> 
> The question this inevitably confronts _you _with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?



I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.

Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.

I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you _really _don't like.


Targetting people who're already doing 'the right thing' by taking public transport by disrupting that public transport? Completely ridiculous.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Targetting people who're already doing 'the right thing' by taking public transport by disrupting that public transport? Completely ridiculous.


Which I think is widely recognised. But it's one example out of hundreds.


----------



## Sue (Oct 14, 2021)

Raheem said:


> Which I think is widely recognised. But it's one example out of hundreds.


Well hopefully. But it was more a point about the view that 'shit activism is better than doing nothing'. 🤷‍♀️


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

Sue said:


> Well hopefully. But it was more a point about the view that 'shit activism is better than doing nothing'. 🤷‍♀️


Getting it wrong once in a while is inevitable.


----------



## souljacker (Oct 14, 2021)

I support them. Aren't protests supposed to disrupt? If I rang my boss and told him I was late because the road was blocked by protesters, I'd expect him to understand just like if I was late because there was a crash and the road was blocked. It sucks but then not as bad as climate change sucks.


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Again I think, holistically, I disagree. Life at the current level of convenience is fairly obviously not sustainable, so disruption is inevitable, whether now and later. Embrace it before a much bigger force presents you with it in a way that you _really _don't like.
> 
> I would love to see a less shit version of XR engage the masses, but until then, someone's doing something.
> 
> The question this inevitably confronts _you _with is this: what are you going to do about it instead? Hope for better? Not enough, is it?



Disruption as a measure of action success is a dangerous road to go down though. Disruption to what, and who does it impact, and to what end?

If a logic of disruption as a sole metric generally is followed then people would be taking down random power stations etc.

Also agree, my/our support or not is largely irrelevant currently.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.
> 
> I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.


yeh i think that the situation is now no longer manageable, that things have gone too far in places like siberia. so yeh by all means let's reduce emissions to zero and start hoovering co2 out of the atmosphere. and maybe - just maybe - it won't all go to shit in a handcart. but let's not pretend that everything will be tickety-boo even if we pull down our emissions by the end of the decade.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.
> 
> I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.


Sadly that is precisely what the enemy want: for you to give up, to accept as inevitable the very worst, to stop fighting.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Sadly that is precisely what the enemy want: for you to give up, to accept as inevitable the very worst, to stop fighting.


and who is the enemy? how are you going to fight the chinese government to close all their coal plants and substitute renewables?


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

Serene said:


> Conversely, in History the majority of Scientists have agreed on one thing and a minority on another, and it turned out that the minority were correct. One always has to be objective where one can be. In truth most say it is and some say it isnt.. Thats a fact.


Have any of those been existential threats to all life on the planet? 🤔


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> You can't criticise them for minor consequences either. An ambulance can't get through (not even true, IIRC). So what?


Minor consequences?  Are you sure about that? You need to do better than just IIRC aswell. Where's your evidence to back up what you are saying? What is your source?

And is it true that an ambulance was obstructed or not?


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

Chilli.s said:


> Successive governments aren't able to even build enough homes to house the population let alone insulate the current housing stock. It's just too challenging for them


They are able, it's the willing that's the problem.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> And you definitely can't criticise them for enraging the government who bring in laws about it. You've got to be thick as mince to utter that.


It's the public who are enraged, not the government.


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

The premise that there exists a minority of experts denying climate change is probably false anyway.






						SAGE Journals: Your gateway to world-class research journals
					

Subscription and open access journals from SAGE Publishing, the world's leading independent academic publisher.




					journals.sagepub.com


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> The revolution will not be _convenient_.


Great slogan that.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Minor consequences?  Are you sure about that? You need to do better than just IIRC aswell. Where's your evidence to back up what you are saying? What is your source?


You're asking us to prove a negative. Where is your evidence that the emergency services have been significantly impacted because of these protests? Or Reclaim The Streets?


----------



## gosub (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> I guess that my forthcoming unveiling of The Urban75 Workers' Truck Bomb is going to be met with some dismay.
> 
> Oh well, back to work.


You have heard about the HGV drivers shortage?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

mauvais said:


> And if it alienates people, even the majority, are we supposed to give a fuck?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You're asking us to prove a negative. Where is your evidence that the emergency services have been significantly impacted because of these protests? Or Reclaim The Streets?


the city of london police certainly felt rather impacted on 18.6.99


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> You're asking us to prove a negative. Where is your evidence that the emergency services have been significantly impacted because of these protests? Or Reclaim The Streets?


I'm simply asking for the necessary evidence. We need to be clear about this.


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> and who is the enemy? how are you going to fight the chinese government to close all their coal plants and substitute renewables?



China has an enormous amount of renewable energy already operating. Unfortunately it's also fucking massive, and all the economic changes etc we're all aware of. But the point being that if you develop a load of genuinely useful renewable tech, build examples of it working etc, countries like China will adopt them.


----------



## Teaboy (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes, the same principle applies to insulating homes. Perhaps civil servants are as we speak carefully working out a scheme that would be messed up if the government bounced them into pushing out some half-baked strategy in response to people sitting on motorways touting some half-baked demands.



We don't need to drift off into an imaginary land of civil servants and mandarins beavering away behind the scenes to know what government policy is towards insulating homes.  We pretty much know what it is because the information is all out there.

For social & council housing it has been for a while funded by energy companies and councils.  Unfortunately we are in a post-Grenfell world and the energy companies are currently fucked so this is now not a sustainable policy.

For new homes its ever increasing and onerous targets with regards to u-values.  For private residential we're down to 0.11W/m2K which probably won't mean much to most but take it from me, that's a decent slab of insulation they are requiring the building to be wrapped in.

For existing private homes there is no policy at all beyond tinkering around the edges with loft insulation and cavity wall.  Nor do I think there will be.  It appears to me that the policy is to go all in on electricity whether it be cars or home heating and leave the problem of plentiful and renewable electricity generation to later generations (ha).


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

souljacker said:


> If I rang my boss and told him I was late because the road was blocked by protesters, I'd expect him to understand just like if I was late because there was a crash and the road was blocked.


Tbf, my current manager's not that bad, but I have definitely had bosses who I would 100% not expect to understand if I was late because there was a crash and the road was blocked.


Count Cuckula said:


> It's the public who are enraged, not the government.


It's not the public who are bringing in laws though, is it?


----------



## RainbowTown (Oct 14, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> I don't have any hope re climate change. I ran out of that many moons ago.
> 
> Extinction Rebellion didn't give me any hope, and Insulate Britain have not either.
> 
> I don't have a magic answer or an inspired protest to offer, I only have doom and despair.



And ultimately this..............................


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> It's the public who are enraged, not the government.


Who do you mean here by "the public"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> China has an enormous amount of renewable energy already operating. Unfortunately it's also fucking massive, and all the economic changes etc we're all aware of. But the point being that if you develop a load of genuinely useful renewable tech, build examples of it working etc, countries like China will adopt them.


yes, i am aware of all that, none of which addresses the simple fact that they are building more coal power stations - eg from yesterday China’s plan to build more coal-fired plants deals blow to UK’s Cop26 ambitions.


----------



## mauvais (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Minor consequences?  Are you sure about that? You need to do better than just IIRC aswell. Where's your evidence to back up what you are saying? What is your source?
> 
> And is it true that an ambulance was obstructed or not?


AIUI someone was delayed visiting a relative who had been taken in an ambulance to hospital. Someone else drove their mother to the hospital in their own car, got delayed, and she had a stroke en route.

I could link to LBC / Sun / etc stories which is seemingly exclusively where all of this stuff lives, but I think we'd all rather I didn't.

Are you going to determine the merits of what people do based on rumours and anecdotes?


----------



## JimW (Oct 14, 2021)

I support their tactics but not their aims, just to be different.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Of course ambulances have been caught up in these road blocks, it's inevitable, or do people think they are just levitate over the other traffic & continue on their journeys?  

There's even one video showing a paramedic helping to clear the twats off the road, so his ambulance could continue on it's journey.


----------



## souljacker (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Tbf, my current manager's not that bad, but I have definitely had bosses who I would 100% not expect to understand if I was late because there was a crash and the road was blocked.


They can't sack you for being late once.

I do feel for zero hours people as they won't get paid but the simple answer to that is ban zero hours working.


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> yes, i am aware of all that, none of which addresses the simple fact that they are building more coal power stations - eg from yesterday China’s plan to build more coal-fired plants deals blow to UK’s Cop26 ambitions.



Argument remains the same. Of course China is going to keep installing coal power stations while they're still the cheapest way of insuring consistent energy capacity. But citing them as some boogeyman that defeats the point of any other action on developing low carbon economies just doesn't get you anywhere. I'm not particularly hopeful about the situation in general, clearly, but the options are rather limited.


----------



## RainbowTown (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Of course ambulances have been caught up in these road blocks, it's inevitable, or do people think they are just levitate over the other traffic & continue on their journeys?
> 
> There's even one video showing a paramedic helping to clear the twats off the road, so his ambulance could continue on it's journey.


----------



## purenarcotic (Oct 14, 2021)

I suppose you could argue that if we continue to not act, people getting stuck and late for work are going to be the least of our concerns. But I don’t think these tactics are particularly helpful and I don’t think they bring people on side. I also think we spend lots of time arguing about the benefits or not of the action and not on discussing what we do about the impending doom or planning more actions or whatever. It feels to me that with nearly anything; the cuts to benefits, the climate etc, there is a horrible apathy and acceptance of it. We all increase our donations to food banks but don’t engage in any direct action or protest to try and change it. That’s not a criticism, I am as guilty of it as anyone, I feel really helpless and hopeless about it all. But I wonder how much time these groups spend on thinking about how to change that, or whether they just go gung ho into blocking motorways.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

If all these motorists are so concerned about ambulances getting stuck in traffic maybe they should get out their cars and start taking the fucking bus.

I'm not even joking.

Yes. Absolutely. Protests involving blocking roads need to plan in how to get ambulances, fire engines etc. through. Won't always work perhaps, but it is basic humanity to put that sort of emergency ahead of a protest.

...but, the crocodile tears of people who knowingly contribute to congestion that slows emergency vehicles daily? Fuck off.

You should see the traffic jams around the Royal Berkshire Hospital cause by people driving into Reading. Nobody needs to drive into Reading.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> I'm simply asking for the necessary evidence. We need to be clear about this.


I'm asking you to go first. I am unaware of any serious harm (medical, fire, drowning at sea) happening because the emergency services were negatively impacted by the Insulate Britain protests, or Reclaim The Streets parties. I imagine if there was concrete evidence for that happening it would have been plastered all over the right wing press with a heart wringing interview with the affected parties.

So where is your evidence?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> Argument remains the same. Of course China is going to keep installing coal power stations while they're still the cheapest way of insuring consistent energy capacity. But citing them as some boogeyman that defeats the point of any other action on developing low carbon economies just doesn't get you anywhere. I'm not particularly hopeful about the situation in general, clearly, but the options are rather limited.


the argument remains the same. so your solution entails a) designing renewable plants; b) getting planning permission; c) building them; d) attracting the attention of the chinese government; d) the chinese evaluating said plants; e) them going through stages a-c in a chinese context. and all this, we're told, before 2030. i suspect you'll agree that it's not really much of a plan. anyway, it's not just china, but china as the biggest current emitter (The World’s Top 10 Carbon Dioxide Emitters) does have rather a large part to play


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

i got a minicab one day last week when IB protests were on, the driver was full of contempt for them but he didn't say anything about ambulances or even delays he was very focussed on something he'd read about the leader of the movement owning a collection of diesel vehicles. If an ambulance had been delayed he'd have read about it but failing that there's always something else to print.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yes, the same principle applies to insulating homes. Perhaps civil servants are as we speak carefully working out a scheme that would be messed up if the government bounced them into pushing out some half-baked strategy in response to people sitting on motorways touting some half-baked demands.


"...And I would've insulated it too, if it weren't for those meddling kids!"


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

bimble said:


> i got a minicab one day last week when IB protests were on, the driver was full of contempt for them but he didn't say anything about ambulances or even delays he was very focussed on something he'd read about the leader of the movement owning a collection of diesel vehicles. If an ambulance had been delayed he'd have read about it but failing that there's always something else to print.


There are 'look at the hypocrite' stories in the tabloid press after every protest ever.


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the argument remains the same. so your solution entails a) designing renewable plants; b) getting planning permission; c) building them; d) attracting the attention of the chinese government; d) the chinese evaluating said plants; e) them going through stages a-c in a chinese context. and all this, we're told, before 2030. i suspect you'll agree that it's not really much of a plan. anyway, it's not just china, but china as the biggest current emitter (The World’s Top 10 Carbon Dioxide Emitters) does have rather a large part to play



And if China didn't get 26% of it's energy from renewables it would be a fuck of a lot more. It is a shit plan. It's slow and unresponsive (on this end at least, China isn't usually that bothered about planning permission). There are alternatives I'd prefer, but they would involve large scale international cooperation and a shitload of money being funnelled out of wealthy economies, which is... unlikely. Whatever else the solution is not 'fuck it, we're doomed'.


----------



## not-bono-ever (Oct 14, 2021)

The blocking ambulances line is a well used yeh but  trope already.see every other criticism all the time of the protesters everywhere in social media.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

...just a bit of a shame they can't roll out "the trouble was believed to have been caused by a hard-core of anarchists fuelled by high strength lager" anymore. I miss that.*

*Not high strength lager. I don't miss that.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the argument remains the same. so your solution entails a) designing renewable plants; b) getting planning permission; c) building them; d) attracting the attention of the chinese government; d) the chinese evaluating said plants; e) them going through stages a-c in a chinese context. and all this, we're told, before 2030. i suspect you'll agree that it's not really much of a plan. anyway, it's not just china, but china as the biggest current emitter (The World’s Top 10 Carbon Dioxide Emitters) does have rather a large part to play


Why the fuss over China's emissions particularly. It's still the most populous country in the world, it's always going to be the biggest emitter. And while I'm no fan of Xi, at least the country doesn't have the slavish devotion to markets that makes planned and coordinated action almost impossible in the west.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

magneze said:


> Great slogan that.


No it's not.

Surely if the revolution isn't convenient for people, if it isn't there for people, providing for them then people won't get behind it and it will fail.

This is very basic stuff. Kropotkin wrote about it in The Conquest of Bread.

It's also ridiculous to compare what Insulate Britain are doing to a revolution if you ask me and they are definitely not revolutionaries.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)




----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Why the fuss over China's emissions particularly. It's still the most populous country in the world, it's always going to be the biggest emitter. And while I'm no fan of Xi, *at least the country doesn't have the slavish devotion to markets that makes planned and coordinated action almost impossible in the west.*



Yeah, like direct action is embraced in China.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 14, 2021)

RainbowTown said:


>



Well there we have it


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Yeah, like direct action is embraced in China.


It isn't embraced here.


----------



## DotCommunist (Oct 14, 2021)

not-bono-ever said:


> The blocking ambulances line is a well used yeh but  trope already.see every other criticism all the time of the protesters everywhere in social media.





chilango said:


> ...just a bit of a shame they can't roll out "the trouble was believed to have been caused by a hard-core of anarchists fuelled by high strength lager" anymore. I miss that.*
> 
> *Not high strength lager. I don't miss that.


packed lunches and drinking money provided by 'insert enemy here' is another old classic, I saw it grimly updated with 'soros' in the provider of evil wages to protestors line not so long ago.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

DotCommunist said:


> packed lunches and drinking money provided by 'insert enemy here' is another old classic, I saw it grimly updated with 'soros' in the provider of evil wages to protestors line not so long ago.



Tbf I did get paid £10 for my lunch once by the TUC (or my local Trades Council) to go to some lobby thing at Parliament.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> It isn't embraced here.



It fucking is, compared to what would happen in China.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Surely if the revolution isn't convenient for people, if it isn't there for people, providing for them then people won't get behind it and it will fail.
> 
> ...


Hearing rumours that the Spanish Civil war did inconvenience some people? I assume that is just revisionism from Franco apologists and tankies though?


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> It fucking is, compared to what would happen in China.


There's loads of single-issue direct action on a local level in China.


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> No it's not.
> 
> Surely if the revolution isn't convenient for people, if it isn't there for people, providing for them then people won't get behind it and it will fail.
> 
> ...



I'd like to see details of any revolution or significant social change that's been 'convenient' for anyone!

I do agree that the point about what is and isn't revolutionary politics and political action, and then how those politics are often jumbled up and confused with activism, and then how often any activism gets criticized by revolutionaries for not being about revolution, whereas maybe it's just activism on a certain topic and revolutionary politics has nothing to do with it.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...just a bit of a shame they can't roll out "the trouble was believed to have been caused by a hard-core of anarchists fuelled by high strength lager" anymore. I miss that.*
> 
> *Not high strength lager. I don't miss that.


I've still never quite got over the time I saw a Stalinist meme implying that all anarchists drink La Croix sparkling water. The times they are a-changin'.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

It's not my revolution if I can't drive my SUV wherever I want to.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 14, 2021)

Driving an SUV doesn't make you middle class. Those of us relegated to the end of life car market get to drive anything we like.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I've still never quite got over the time I saw a Stalinist meme implying that all anarchists drink La Croix sparkling water. The times they are a-changin'.



I'm old enough that your post makes no sense to me at all.

Stallnist memes?
Wtf is La Croix?


----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> ...just a bit of a shame they can't roll out "the trouble was believed to have been caused by a hard-core of anarchists fuelled by high strength lager" anymore. I miss that.*
> 
> *Not high strength lager. I don't miss that.


Tennents Super still all the rage among the anarchist crowd in Italy I am sure you will be very pleased to know


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

HoratioCuthbert said:


> Driving an SUV doesn't make you middle class. Those of us relegated to the end of life car market get to drive anything we like.


I've not owned a car for 10 years (not smug about it, just don't need one where I am) so I have no idea what "the end of life car market" is? Just driving bangers or what?


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Wtf is La Croix?


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> I've not owned a car for 10 years (not smug about it, just don't need one where I am) so I have no idea what "the end of life car market" is? Just driving bangers or what?


I pretty much made up the term myself on the hoof but that's what I meant. To be scrapped in 12 months or less. Anything under 1000.


I've actually stopped driving now for the time being, good timing with the eye watering  petrol prices


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Tennents Super still all the rage among the anarchist crowd in Italy I am sure you will be very pleased to know



You can count on the Italians for many things...


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Fozzie Bear said:


> It's not my revolution if I can't drive my SUV wherever I want to.



I heard the 1st International split 'cos they couldn't agree mutually convenient dates for the next Congress. Marx could "only do Tuesdays" but Bakunin "had something on" and Blanqui wasn't prepared to travel more than 2 hours "for some boring Congress".


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I'm old enough that your post makes no sense to me at all.
> 
> Stallnist memes?
> Wtf is La Croix?


Overpriced fizzy water that comes in some quite nice colourful cans:








						La Croix sparkling water is little short of a religion among millennials - here's why
					

The sugar-free, flavoured drink is gaudy, moreish and huge in LA. But is it because of the look, or the taste?




					www.theguardian.com
				




And yes, I'm old enough to remember a time when the concept of "Stalinist memes" would also have sounded ridiculous, but here we are.


----------



## JimW (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Why the fuss over China's emissions particularly. It's still the most populous country in the world, it's always going to be the biggest emitter. And while I'm no fan of Xi, at least the country doesn't have the slavish devotion to markets that makes planned and coordinated action almost impossible in the west.


It's also doing a fair amount of the manufacturing for the rest of the industrialised world, particularly to lower end stuff that is more emissions heavy, so it's everyone else's CO2 in that sense as well.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> I heard the 1st International split 'cos they couldn't agree mutually convenient dates for the next Congress. Marx could "only do Tuesdays" but Bakunin "had something on" and Blanqui wasn't prepared to travel more than 2 hours "for some boring Congress".


And Proudhon missed the whole thing cos he was asleep outside the offy with his dog on a string.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Tennents Super still all the rage among the anarchist crowd in Italy I am sure you will be very pleased to know


Tenants Super has an ever slightly different rep in Italy though! Fancy bars with Tenants Super umbrellas on the piazza were commonplace in Milan.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Look at these selfish fuckers blocking ambulances.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.

Martin Luther King, Jr.


----------



## Fozzie Bear (Oct 14, 2021)

Maybe so, but what about the RNLI, eh? You unthinking bastards!


----------



## Raheem (Oct 14, 2021)

.
These fuckers even put up a banner, like blocking ambulances is something to be proud of.


----------



## HoratioCuthbert (Oct 14, 2021)

After reading the thread I am not sure, so probably what Brogdale and Teaboy said.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)




----------



## Flavour (Oct 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> You can count on the Italians for many things...
> 
> [/MEDIA]


----------



## Yossarian (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> The ultimate measure of a man is not where he stands in moments of comfort and convenience, but where he stands at times of challenge and controversy.
> 
> Martin Luther King, Jr.



But what about the customers inconvenienced by lunch counter sit-ins? Some of them might have been hungry paramedics.


----------



## Serge Forward (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> Is there a version of Godwin's Law about how long a thread about activism can go on for before someone posts that bit from As We See It? Or something from Give Up Activism, one or the other.


You say that like it's a bad thing


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> Whatever else the solution is not 'fuck it, we're doomed'.


You're like general melchett - if nothing else works a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're like general melchett - if nothing else works a total pig-headed unwillingness to look facts in the face will see us through



And you, as usual, are only interested in picking holes in straw men.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Look at these selfish fuckers blocking ambulances.


🤣 There is some good comedy on this thread.


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 14, 2021)

I support insulating Britain with a lot of organic hemp fibre. I really only see a lot of win-wins in such a scenario.


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2021)

In the meantime, it looks like someone from Insulate Britain has read this thread and they've seen the error of their ways

*Insulate Britain suspends road protests for 11 days*​


> Climate protest group Insulate Britain, which has caused disruption to major roads during the last five weeks, is to suspend its campaigning for 11 days. The activists have blocked motorways and roads in the London area, including the M1 and M25, and Thames crossings.





> In an open letter to Prime Minister Boris Johnson, the group says it will halt its "campaign of civil resistance" until 25 October. Insulate Britain said it "profoundly" acknowledges the disruption caused.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> In the meantime, it looks like someone from Insulate Britain has read this thread and they've seen the error of their ways
> 
> *Insulate Britain suspends road protests for 11 days*​


They are getting ideas from us? 😁


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

Why aren't they protesting outside Johnson's house? The same reason cops prefer to pick on motorists than real criminals. Motorists tend to not fight back, so these bored rich kids know they're less likely to get a good hiding blocking roads than blocking access to Johnson's gaff or #10.
They're doing nothing of worth, and it's only a matter of time before the public take the law into their own hands and start doling out physical warnings.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

Biff Whipster is a fantastic nom de guerre, or nom de roadblock or whatever.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Fuck off Saul, your schtick is getting boring.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Motorists tend to not fight back, so these bored rich kids know they're less likely to get a good hiding blocking roads than blocking access to Johnson's gaff or #10.


 fantastic. Everyone knows you can do whatever you want to a motorist and they won't get wound up, there's even a name for this well-known phenomenon: road calmness.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

What would protesting outside johnson's house accomplish? People do that from time to time and it does fuck all.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> What would protesting outside johnson's house accomplish?


Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families. Something these cunts don't have to worry about.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Fuck off Saul, your schtick is getting boring.


Have you read the shite you've posted here?


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families. Something these cunts don't have to worry about.


Any political action that stands a chance of actually doing something will annoy people on the way to work. It's inevitable.


----------



## The39thStep (Oct 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> In the meantime, it looks like someone from Insulate Britain has read this thread and they've seen the error of their ways
> 
> *Insulate Britain suspends road protests for 11 days*​


After reading this they’ve probsbly decided to buy some time to give those posters on here who support them the opportunity to join , take part in their activities or donate some money to them ?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> What would protesting outside johnson's house accomplish? People do that from time to time and it does fuck all.



And, you think these protests are going to achieve anything, beyond more powers for the police to break up protests?

Their demands are totally unrealistic, and could never be achieved in the time frame they set out, they live in the same fantasy world as all the numbnuts calling on private cars being banned, which is never going to happen in our lifetimes.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> And you, as usual, are only interested in picking holes in straw men.


A pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face. If you looked into the issue of arctic methane, at the way the Arctic is already damaged by soot which lowers the amount of sunlight reflected, at the feedback loops which build on this, the way the reduced ice is encouraging shipping along previously closed routes, therefore more soot - you wouldn't be so complacent. Barring a miracle - for which people should strain minds and muscles to deliver - it's all fucked. I'd love to see you bring out the science to show all that's bilge but I don't expect you to


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Any political action that stands a chance of actually doing something will annoy people on the way to work. It's inevitable.



That's not true though, plenty of political action has no chance of annoying people on the way to work. The type of political action that _does _annoy people on the way to work (or going anywhere) is a very small subsection of what can be done - it's just that that type of action has grown to dominate the tool box of political groups, I think largely for not great reasons.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Why aren't they protesting outside Johnson's house? The same reason cops prefer to pick on motorists than real criminals. Motorists tend to not fight back, so these bored rich kids know they're less likely to get a good hiding blocking roads than blocking access to Johnson's gaff or #10.
> They're doing nothing of worth, and it's only a matter of time before the public take the law into their own hands and start doling out physical warnings.



Yeah motorists are famously sanguine about speeding fines and there’s no reason at all why fuel duty has been static since he early 2000s

Those oppressed motorists are saints one and all


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Any political action that stands a chance of actually doing something will annoy people on the way to work. It's inevitable.


Why? What's wrong with picketing outside factories after people have arrived at work, and preventing trucks from entering or leaving? That way the workers get paid and it hits the companies.


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face. If you looked into the issue of arctic methane, at the way the Arctic is already damaged by soot which lowers the amount of sunlight reflected, at the feedback loops which build on this, the way the reduced ice is encouraging shipping along previously closed routes, therefore more soot - you wouldn't be so complacent. Barring a miracle - for which people should strain minds and muscles to deliver - it's all fucked. I'd love to see you bring out the science to show all that's bilge but I don't expect you to



You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with what you think I think.


----------



## maomao (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> A pig-headed refusal to look facts in the face. If you looked into the issue of arctic methane, at the way the Arctic is already damaged by soot which lowers the amount of sunlight reflected, at the feedback loops which build on this, the way the reduced ice is encouraging shipping along previously closed routes, therefore more soot - you wouldn't be so complacent. Barring a miracle - for which people should strain minds and muscles to deliver - it's all fucked. I'd love to see you bring out the science to show all that's bilge but I don't expect you to


Are you two even talking about the same thing? He was just saying we shouldn't give in to abject defeatism wasn't he?


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, you think these protests are going to achieve anything, beyond more powers for the police to break up protests?
> 
> Their demands are totally unrealistic, and could never be achieved in the time frame they set out, they live in the same fantasy world as all the numbnuts calling on private cars being banned, which is never going to happen in our lifetimes.


They don't have to achieve those demands to achieve something though do they? If insulating the housing stock of the UK is pushed up the political agenda - and it's certainly something a lot more people are aware of now - then they've achieved something. a lot more than they'd have been able to achieve by going and waving some placards outside downing street.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Why? What's wrong with picketing outside factories after people have arrived at work, and preventing trucks from entering or leaving? That way the workers get paid and it hits the companies.


which factories do you propose they picket?


----------



## andysays (Oct 14, 2021)

The39thStep said:


> After reading this they’ve probsbly decided to buy some time to give those posters on here who support them the opportunity to join , take part in their activities or donate some money to them ?


No, they've clearly seen the error of their ways after reading the well argued posts of Saul Goodman and others.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> which factories do you propose they picket?


They have enough time on their hands to work out who the worst offenders are.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

andysays said:


> No, they've clearly seen the error of their ways after reading the well argued posts of Saul Goodman and others.


They're welcome.


----------



## agricola (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> Any political action that stands a chance of actually doing something will annoy people on the way to work. It's inevitable.



TBF the one that XR did which stopped the Murdoch papers going out didn't (or at least the only people prevented going to work were those who worked there).  Its hard to think of anything XR did that got as much attention off the government (in terms of spooking it) as that did either.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> They have enough time on their hands to work out who the worst offenders are.


The worst offenders at... not insulating the existing housing stock of the UK? Well, they could picket my workplace I suppose, we don't do any of that at all.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> The worst offenders at... not insulating the existing housing stock of the UK? Well, they could picket my workplace I suppose, we don't do any of that at all.


Worst polluters. 
Or they could picket your place. Either is OK with me.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Worst polluters.


They aren't demanding less pollution though, they're demanding the government insulate the housing stock of the country?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> They aren't demanding less pollution though, they're demanding the government insulate the housing stock of the country?


Then by your reasoning, they should organise loft sit-ins, which I'm fine with.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> They aren't demanding less pollution though, they're *demanding the government insulate the housing stock *of the country?



Which would result in less pollution, that's their whole point, you complete numpty.


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Auto Struggles: The Developing War Against the Road Monster
					

From capital's point of view, the motor industry is both a vital element in a modern transport infrastructure, necessary for the expanded reproduction of a variety of sectors of the economy, and a locus of expansion in its own right. From the proletariat's perspective, the freedom offered by the...




					libcom.org


----------



## kebabking (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> They don't have to achieve those demands to achieve something though do they? If insulating the housing stock of the UK is pushed up the political agenda - and it's certainly something a lot more people are aware of now - then they've achieved something. a lot more than they'd have been able to achieve by going and waving some placards outside downing street.



One is tempted to wonder what they would have achieved in terms of awareness and support by buying a load of twitter and Facebook adverts...

They are pushing at an open door - I can make your house warmer, and cost you less in heating bills - and it's not really as if there's a huge cohort of the electorate unaware of climate change. 

They aren't pushing something that no one has heard of, they are simply pushing for a fairly technical change that will inconvenience no one - it might be expensive and pain to do - but that is broadly in line with wide(ish) public opinion.

Well, it was until they started this idiocy...


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Then by your reasoning, they should organise loft sit-ins, which I'm fine with.


sounds like just the kind of action that will get your campaign on the evening news bulletins.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

Here's them putting the case of what needs to be done & why: 


Which looks like it all makes total sense.
It seems like them blocking roads doesn't have much obvious connection with achieving this but then again i'd never otherwise have read anything about insulation, which tbh always seemed like one of the world's boringest subjects.
 eta oh i didnt expect to go all imbedded like that.


----------



## xenon (Oct 14, 2021)

I don’t want my flat insulated. It’s already too warm, especially in the summer. Would rather the money went to speeding up moving to non-fossil fuels.


----------



## bimble (Oct 14, 2021)

i'm going to try to insulate my kitchen, which is the only bit thats really bad, and cold. I can (weird house) access the underneath of the floor reasonably easily so should be able to just get some rolls of the right stuff and nail/ staple to the underneath of the floor.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> sounds like just the kind of action that will get your campaign on the evening news bulletins.


Yes, because nobody has ever heard of loft insulation. We need to make people aware of its existence! 
Blocking roads isn't going to force the government to do anything but introduce laws to stop people blocking roads.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Their demands are totally unrealistic, and could never be achieved in the time frame they set out, they live in the same fantasy world as all the numbnuts calling on private cars being banned, which is never going to happen in our lifetimes.


Bit early to make strong claims about what will happen to private cars, I have no prediction just yet. Also your particular claim is dependent on when the lifetimes you mention actually end.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> Bit early to make strong claims about what will happen to private cars, I have no prediction just yet. Also your particular claim is dependent on when the lifetimes you mention actually end.



The lifetime of those posting on here.

If anyone seriously thinks a government is going to ban private cars in the next 30-50 years at least, they need medical help.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> The lifetime of those posting on here.
> 
> If anyone seriously thinks a government is going to ban private cars in the next 30-50 years at least, they need medical help.


Sounds like you've got entirely the wrong impression about this century and the magnitude of the transition that looks likely.

This is not the same as me making a confident claim about when such a ban would be sure to happen. But I am loudly suggesting that to demonstrate such certainty about what will be normal in 30-50 years is incredibly stupid.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

kebabking said:


> One is tempted to wonder what they would have achieved in terms of awareness and support by buying a load of twitter and Facebook adverts...
> 
> They are pushing at an open door - I can make your house warmer, and cost you less in heating bills - and it's not really as if there's a huge cohort of the electorate unaware of climate change.
> 
> ...



Insulating the housing stock sounds like the sort of policy that all mainstream political parties should be advocating for. 

I fully expect that it will be pinched by the Tories, Johnson to be featured in a “hilarious” photo call attempting to roll out a bundle of loft insulation and falling through the ceiling plaster. The implementation will then be farmed out to Dido Harding and a bloke Kwasi Kwarteng played The Wall Game with at Eton and naturally be a total disaster.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

kebabking said:


> One is tempted to wonder what they would have achieved in terms of awareness and support by buying a load of twitter and Facebook adverts...
> 
> They are pushing at an open door - I can make your house warmer, and cost you less in heating bills - and it's not really as if there's a huge cohort of the electorate unaware of climate change.
> 
> ...


They are pushing at an open door, I agree - but I don't think insulation has been a very substantial part of this debate until now. I think most people have been kind of resigned to having shitly insulated houses, as the means to sort it out is beyond them. It is now. And it's not something that people are going to be against just because of the way it's been brought to their attention - it's one of those rare things, a proposal about combating climate change _which would also benefit them_: it's not saying drive less, don't fly places, give things up - it's saying pay less in bills and have a warmer home.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> You’re not arguing with me, you’re arguing with what you think I think.


I don't think you think


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

maomao said:


> Are you two even talking about the same thing? He was just saying we shouldn't give in to abject defeatism wasn't he?


Yeh a pig-headed refusal to face the facts, as I said


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> Sounds like you've got entirely the wrong impression about this century and the magnitude of the transition that looks likely.
> 
> This is not the same as me making a confident claim about when such a ban would be sure to happen. But I am loudly suggesting that to demonstrate such certainty about what will be normal in 30-50 years is incredibly stupid.



And, I would suggest anyone that thinks a government that pushes people to electric vehicles over the next 10-25 years, will then ban those a few years later, are incredibly fucking stupid.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, I would suggest anyone that thinks a government that pushes people to electric vehicles over the next 10-25 years, will then ban those a few years later, are incredibly fucking stupid.


Um. Wasn't there a great push to diesel not that long ago, encouraged by the government? So there is a precedent for them doing er a u-turn


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Um. Wasn't there a great push to diesel not that long ago, encouraged by the government? So there is a precedent for them doing er a u-turn



The push on diesels was years ago, and whilst new diesel sales will be stopped, they are not banning those already on the road.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> They are pushing at an open door, I agree - but I don't think insulation has been a very substantial part of this debate until now. I think most people have been kind of resigned to having shitly insulated houses, as the means to sort it out is beyond them. It is now. And it's not something that people are going to be against just because of the way it's been brought to their attention - it's one of those rare things, a proposal about combating climate change _which would also benefit them_: it's not saying drive less, don't fly places, give things up - it's saying pay less in bills and have a warmer home.


Oh I dont know, there have been subsidised insulation programmes on occasions in this country this century and work was done on some of the houses I can see out of my window as a result (external cladding).

In regards bills, likely they will soar to generally unaffordable levels and this will provide a new angle with which people will take the issue more seriously.

I'm not happy that some opportunities to improve building regulations this century to make recent additions to the housing stock more fit for purpose were squandered by watering down certain proposals.

The future picture in regards quite how much shit we'll be in with home heating is somewhat clouded by continued hydrogen hype and reliance on the idea that hydrogen will be a natural gas boiler replacement that can be made to work at the necessary scale. Maybe much is possible on that front, but maybe things related to hydrogen will turn out to be as empty a form of hype as they were last time future energy claims were pinned to a glorious 'hydrogen economy'. So I'm skeptical but since I dont like to make narrow assumptions about the future, I suppose I shouldnt rule it out.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Um. Wasn't there a great push to diesel not that long ago, encouraged by the government? So there is a precedent for them doing er a u-turn


They will continue to push whatever creates more revenue. When (if?) the next generation of batteries is invented, cars using the current (no pun) batteries will be taxed into oblivion, just to sell more cars. 
I don't think private cars are going away any time soon, and certainly not in my lifetime. I'd argue that they're never going away


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh a pig-headed refusal to face the facts, as I said



So you want people to 'strain minds and muscles' to deliver a miracle, whilst also giving in to abject defeatism. Seems sensible.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> And, I would suggest anyone that thinks a government that pushes people to electric vehicles over the next 10-25 years, will then ban those a few years later, are incredibly fucking stupid.



More likely is that people will be priced out of the market in stages, and norms and expectations will shift as a result. I dont rule out more dramatic action because I cannot rule out various shocks and crises that turn priorities and resource allocation on their head.


----------



## BillRiver (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Insulating the housing stock sounds like the sort of policy that all mainstream political parties should be advocating for.
> 
> I fully expect that it will be pinched by the Tories, Johnson to be featured in a “hilarious” photo call attempting to roll out a bundle of loft insulation and falling through the ceiling plaster. The implementation will then be farmed out to Dido Harding and a bloke Kwasi Kwarteng played The Wall Game with at Eton and naturally be a total disaster.



Was it not already in the Tory manifesto at the last election? I thought it was but I may be mistaken.


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> The push on diesels was years ago, and whilst new diesel sales will be stopped, they are not banning those already on the road.


Same thing could happen for private cars.


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> More likely is that people will be priced out of the market in stages, and norms and expectations will shift as a result. I dont rule out more dramatic action because I cannot rule out various shocks and crises that turn priorities and resource allocation on their head.


Also partial bans could be implemented. In cities for instance. Fairly easy to see this coming imho.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Was it not already in the Tory manifesto at the last election? I thought it was but I may be mistaken.


I havent checked but such things often pop up and there have been real subsidised programmes over the years. Complaints are often of the form that the commitments dont even begin to go far enough. I expect it is on the agenda to accelerate this stuff quite a lot this decade.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

aren't they about to ban cars from the centre of Birmingham?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

Banning cars from city/town centres is one thing, banning all private car ownership is totally different.


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

There you go. Not possible in my lifetime lol. Already happening. 😂


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

The pandemic offered various wake up calls for those who had unwisely decided that there is no need to think the unthinkable. Never say never! Otherwise my opportunities to be a tedious smartarse will persist.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Banning cars from city/town centres is one thing, banning all private car ownership is totally different.


as far as I can tell you're the person who's raised this, and I'm not really sure why.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

magneze said:


> There you go. Not possible in my lifetime lol. Already happening. 😂



Perhaps you need reading glasses?


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> So you want people to 'strain minds and muscles' to deliver a miracle, whilst also giving in to abject defeatism. Seems sensible.


There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.


----------



## hitmouse (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families. Something these cunts don't have to worry about.


I live next door to Boris Johnson and all these protests outside Boris Johnson's house are very inconvenient for me when I'm trying to get to my job as a doctor at a hospital for terminally ill and very cute kittens.


elbows said:


> Sounds like you've got entirely the wrong impression about this century and the magnitude of the transition that looks likely.
> 
> This is not the same as me making a confident claim about when such a ban would be sure to happen. But I am loudly suggesting that to demonstrate such certainty about what will be normal in 30-50 years is incredibly stupid.





elbows said:


> The pandemic offered various wake up calls for those who had unwisely decided that there is no need to think the unthinkable. Never say never! Otherwise my opportunities to be a tedious smartarse will persist.


Yeah, it's weird seeing this "easier to imagine the end of the world than the end of capitalism/cars" stuff still persists after a year or two when it suddenly became more or less illegal to go outside.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> as far as I can tell you're the person who's raised this, and I'm not really sure why.



It was raised on this thread earlier this morning, long before I commented on it, and has also been raised across various other threads.

So, do excuse me for filing your latest observation with your classic comment that Insulate Britain isn't campaigning to reduce pollution.


----------



## magneze (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Perhaps you need reading glasses?


Perhaps re-read the thread. 🤷


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

BillRiver said:


> Was it not already in the Tory manifesto at the last election? I thought it was but I may be mistaken.


They don't mention insulation once in their manifesto but even if they did you can't trust a Johnson pledge


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 14, 2021)

hitmouse said:


> I live next door to Boris Johnson and all these protests outside Boris Johnson's house are very inconvenient for me when I'm trying to get to my job as a doctor at a hospital for terminally ill and very cute kittens.


Move house. Win win.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 14, 2021)

Direct Action pissing people off. 

(Shock/horror)


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Not annoy working class people trying to get to work to feed their families.


lol


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 14, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Move house. Win win.


lol


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Direct Action pissing people off.
> 
> (Shock/horror)


Back in the day the slogan was direct action gets the goods. I can't see that being the case here, in part because there's a disconnect for me at least between what they're doing and why they say they're doing it. Leaving the pissed off people to one side, I think the notion this sort of limited blocking roads will lead to a great change in policy is daft. Either ramp it up and block roads across the country preferably simultaneously or don't bother.


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## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

Car bans









						List of car-free places - Wikipedia
					






					en.m.wikipedia.org


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.


If it helps then we can always try to separate two sides of the same coin.

For example I dont make any claims about the extent to which climate doom will be mitigated. But there is also the energy supply picture and what sort of ways of life people will be able to sustain for years. I expect a mix of successes and failures on the energy transition front.

I do think its possible to not be optimistic, and to recognise the magnitude of the challenge and the pain and changes that even success would bring, without automatically ending up being defined by defeatism. I look back to an era of 'peak oil awareness' and I was interested in all the aspects of it, but I couldnt help but notice that some people were only attracted to it because they were in some ways attracted to the idea of collapse. And thats an interesting subject, especially for people that hate the current status quo, but I think its possible to give such aspects a fair amount of attention without losing all the other aspects which combine to make the real full picture. The full spectrum of possibilities looks very messy but its still possible to gawp at it without the utter doom aspects obscuring everything else from view. Some people also lost interest in peak oil etc because a sense of imminency was required in order to hold their attention, and things on that front didnt collapse withint he timescales they envisaged. I'd rather find a way to frame things as long emergencies with action taking place over long time periods, albeit still with particular moments of acute woe.

I've certainly used the pandemic to help calibrate my senses on this. Trying to get the balance right, not being afraid to point out impending doom without forgetting the ways that life have a habit of carrying on to whatever degree people can manage. And that will be the case even if we end up in a situation where the god of growth dies, eliminating the economic order which we are accustomed to and reducing the total population of the planet back down to levels seen before we harnessed thousands of years of crushed ex-life as fuel, fertiliser etc. eg if the 'Green revolution in agriculture' seen last century comes undone then that will be some heavy shit right there. But I still wouldnt let it get in the way of trying to fix as much as possible.

And I need to steady my nerve because we've been through a period where terms like 'sustainable' lacked real bite, since we hadnt reached a point where the unsustainable could not be sustained for a moment longer. And we might expect 'sustainable' to get teeth via a serious of shocks that shake away complacency. Under such conditions, I will be tempted to sing songs about the sky falling in, but will probably have to come to terms with shit and carry on.


----------



## killer b (Oct 14, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> It was raised on this thread earlier this morning, long before I commented on it, and has also been raised across various other threads.
> 
> So, do excuse me for filing your latest observation with your classic comment that Insulate Britain isn't campaigning to reduce pollution.


You're right, chilango mentioned it in passing. 

This is a really odd argument tbh. Do you think environmental campaigners shouldn't have ambitious demands? Because I dunno if you've noticed but the world is burning and the only solutions that could have any impact on that have to be really fucking ambitious. Ambitious way beyond 'lets insulate the houses of the country' and 'lets stop using private cars'. But for you this just seems to be some nihilistic internet point scoring thing. Not sure I can be bothered tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> If it helps then we can always try to separate two sides of the same coin.
> 
> For example I dont make any claims about the extent to which climate doom will be mitigated. But there is also the energy supply picture and what sort of ways of life people will be able to sustain for years. I expect a mix of successes and failures on the energy transition front.
> 
> ...


Cheers - i think you have to try even if the result may be very likely shit. There's days none of this seems real and any problems are distant. Then something happens to bring it all back. But for there to be any reasonable future for young people today (and even those of us not so young) I don't think it's possible to lie down and die without giving it a good shot.


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Back in the day the slogan was direct action gets the goods. I can't see that being the case here, in part because there's a disconnect for me at least between what they're doing and why they say they're doing it. Leaving the pissed off people to one side, I think the notion this sort of limited blocking roads will lead to a great change in policy is daft. Either ramp it up and block roads across the country preferably simultaneously or don't bother.


Ramp it the fuck up then - but yeah, take your point. 
This country needs some ramped up DA right now, & if that means that the “working class can’t get to feed their families” then so fucking be it. Cos this shithouse of a gov or Saul certainly don’t give a fuck.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

chilango said:


> Car bans
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Car bans would lead to more pedestrians - so there’d be a much larger car ban footprint.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Car bans would lead to more pedestrians - so there’d be a much larger car ban footprint.


Worse, it might lead to more cyclists


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## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

Mr.Bishie said:


> Ramp it the fuck up then - but yeah, take your point.
> This country needs some ramped up DA right now, & if that means that the “working class can’t get to feed their families” then so fucking be it. Cos this shithouse of a gov or Saul certainly don’t give a fuck.



Ok, but then how does that work further down the line? Piss shit loads of people off by doing all this militant highly disruptive stuff trying to force the government to do what you demand. And then if they don't you've lost a base of support from the people you could have had on your side? Where then? Cos usually the answer is the State clamps down on you and nobody cares (or is pleased) as you've pissed them off so much.


----------



## LDC (Oct 14, 2021)

Direct action is not usually about doing stuff to ask (or force) the government to do other stuff.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Worse, it might lead to more cyclists


Let’s leave the anti cyclist stuff to the cesspit that is the anti-car propaganda thread


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Ok, but then how does that work further down the line? Piss shit loads of people off by doing all this militant highly disruptive stuff trying to force the government to do what you demand. And then if they don't you've lost a base of support from the people you could have had on your side? Where then? Cos usually the answer is the State clamps down on you and nobody cares (or is pleased) as you've pissed them off so much.


Do you think the pin-pricks the current protests inflict hurt capital at all? I think they more help it as the protestors are ineffective as well as being subjected to widespread condemnation. If they were able to bring disruption across the country all at once they'd not need to do it often, as the threat would have substance behind it.


----------



## Serene (Oct 14, 2021)

How long are they saying the Earth has before we all freeze to death?  In years.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Let’s leave the anti cyclist stuff to the cesspit that is the anti-car propaganda thread


I wasn't being entirely serious


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> There is at least the slightest chance of a miracle now, so obvs even that slight chance should be fought for. But yeh if facing the facts and realising the desperation of our position - and the utter inadequacy of anything being proposed remedying matters - is defeatism then I'm a defeatist. I'm not seeing you coming out with anything which contradicts my view that things have gone too far to make success in this a likely outcome.



That's not defeatism though is it? Defeatism isn't realising the fundamental desperation of a situation, it's having that realisation and saying that action against it is pointless. That's what I'm arguing against; when someone says there's no point in X action because of Y external force, that is defeatism. Miracles don't come from the void; they come from labour, from people working with belief that what they're doing might just yield something, with hope. Most of those might just end with some modest improvement in how we live now, I certainly don't think IB would achieve much more than that even were they successful. Many will just be dead ends. If there is a solution, it's likely to be a combination of many different efforts from many different fields. But fundamentally when you invoke something like the China boogeyman as a reason not to act, you're not just saying the situation is desperate, you're saying it's desperate and we might as well just give up.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 14, 2021)

Cid said:


> That's not defeatism though is it? Defeatism isn't realising the fundamental desperation of a situation, it's having that realisation and saying that action against it is pointless. That's what I'm arguing against; when someone says there's no point in X action because of Y external force, that is defeatism. Miracles don't come from the void; they come from labour, from people working with belief that what they're doing might just yield something, with hope. Most of those might just end with some modest improvement in how we live now, I certainly don't think IB would achieve much more than that even were they successful. Many will just be dead ends. If there is a solution, it's likely to be a combination of many different efforts from many different fields. But fundamentally when you invoke something like the China boogeyman as a reason not to act, you're not just saying the situation is desperate, you're saying it's desperate and we might as well just give up.


Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.


----------



## Cid (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.



Well, people can read back over the conversation and come to their own conclusion, in the highly unlikely event they want to.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> aren't they about to ban cars from the centre of Birmingham?



No.
There are three things which are happening/about to happen:

1) Clean Air Zone - if you want to go inside the ring road you need to pay I think £8/day unless you have an engine which meets a fairly easy emissions standard. This is already in place.

2) City Centre Segmentation - This will stop private cars from driving through the city centre, except on the A38 expressway (see next point). It involves creating a "giant Low Traffic Neighbourhood (LTN)" which means that filters will be placed so that drivers can access any place in the city centre but cannot drive through it. The ring road is used to go around to access a specific place if that's what you need. This will not stop anyone from being able to drive anywhere, just change the routes that are accessible to drivers. This is being put in place at the moment, some filters are already in place, others are under consultation to complete the work.

3) A38 expressway closure - This is being proposed, not even consulted on yet, and would close the A38 expressway to motor vehicles, I haven't looked at the full proposals yet, traffic would be diverted around the ring road rather than being able to cut through the centre as it is now. I think the expressway will be turned into a cycle way but tbh the overpasses and tunnels won't be very nice to cycle on anyway and I'd rather see the tunnels filled in and have surface level cycle lane on a bus only road, with wider pavements than exist now.

But it's important to note that none of these ban cars from the city centre at all, or even stop anyone from accessing anything by car they already can (there's no pedestrianisation proposals). You won't be able to drive through the city centre anymore, that's all.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Oh dear. I never said China was a reason not to act.


The picture there is quite interesting these days.









						Chinese coal prices hit record high and power cuts continue
					

Flooding in northern China is hitting a major coal production center hard, sending coal prices soaring and complicating efforts by Beijing to tackle ongoing power shortages.




					edition.cnn.com


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 14, 2021)

BigTom said:


> 3) I think the expressway will be turned into a cycle way but tbh the overpasses and tunnels won't be very nice to cycle on anyway and I'd rather see the tunnels filled in and have surface level cycle lane on a bus only road, with wider pavements than exist now.


The tunnels aren’t very nice at all to drive through. Agree they should be filled in.


----------



## BigTom (Oct 14, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> The tunnels aren’t very nice at all to drive through. Agree they should be filled in.


The whole inner ring road was awful, I'm glad it's mostly gone. This is basically the last section.

Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.

I'm sure there were many complaints about the disruption that caused.

That whole roadway no longer exists and it's almost impossible to remember what it was like now, even looking at photos.

The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.


----------



## elbows (Oct 14, 2021)

BigTom said:


> The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.


I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!


----------



## ska invita (Oct 14, 2021)

killer b said:


> They don't have to achieve those demands to achieve something though do they? If insulating the housing stock of the UK is pushed up the political agenda - and it's certainly something a lot more people are aware of now - then they've achieved something. a lot more than they'd have been able to achieve by going and waving some placards outside downing street.



yeah this, whatever else you can say about it they've managed to make the words Insulate Britain into a Thing and on the news every day for a couple of weeks in the run up to COP26 and im sure they'll be back during it and in the lead up to the big 'global day of action' on November 6th.








						Global Day of Action for Climate Justice - COP26 Coalition
					

800 actions were organised across the world. Hundreds of thousands of people mobilised under a call for climate justice and brought together movements to build power for system change – from indigenous struggles to trade unions, from racial justice groups to youth strikers.




					cop26coalition.org
				




Theres no way the government is ever going to bow to their demands, but the very notion of Insulating Britain is now much more of a thing than it was before, and there is a likelihood that the notion will become more central over the coming years. and it'll have been worth the traffic jams


----------



## Mr.Bishie (Oct 14, 2021)

elbows said:


> I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!


Custard Factory. Now there’s a blast from the past!


----------



## chilango (Oct 14, 2021)

BigTom said:


> Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.
> 
> I'm sure there were many complaints about the disruption that caused.


Bizarrely, the day after the RTS I was approached by someone from the Birmingham tourism people doing surveys to see if the city had made money from the influx of protesters.


----------



## elbows (Oct 15, 2021)

chilango said:


> Bizarrely, the day after the RTS I was approached by someone from the Birmingham tourism people doing surveys to see if the city had made money from the influx of protesters.



if Sunak hears that the activists activities help to stimulate the economy, he'll be tempted to launch a scheme that provokes them to go further.

Heat Out To Help Out.


----------



## BillRiver (Oct 15, 2021)

BigTom said:


> Some of us here might remember a Reclaim the Streets protest for the G8 Birmingham 1998 meet, held on masshouse circus (i think), the huge roundabout with the bulkring markets in the middle of it.



I remember it very well.

I was doing my nurse training up in Huddersfield. I'd done a 9 hour shift on placement in the ICU, then done an overnight shift at the local Samaritans, before getting the coach down to Birmingham early that morning.

A very memorable day. I'm now happily reminiscing and marvelling at how detailed my memories of it are. My short term memory is deeply dysfunctional yet I remember so much of that day, 23 years later!


----------



## two sheds (Oct 15, 2021)

BigTom said:


> The old bullring is missed for sure, the new one is just a bland shipping mall, but the area is soooo much nicer to walk around and now they are taking out the 6 lane road down digbeth high street and putting in tram lines, it'll be improved even further.



New one? The one I remember was 70s?, waiting for a bus with diesel fumes surrounded. Then I went back once in 80s? did have bland shopping mall but you could actually breathe and would want to wander up and look at nearby attractive looking shops (that I couldn't afford but that's not the point).

I'll swear I remember walking round the jewellers/watchmakers area in Birmingham - loads of old terraced houses with real charm. I think they pulled it down though .


----------



## Wilf (Oct 15, 2021)

mauvais said:


> Not had chance to read this entire thread but some really shit thinking on display here.
> 
> I find it useful to start from the baseline of never criticising someone's protest, and then breaking that rule requires justification. Not least because, generally speaking, shit activism is better than no activism.
> 
> ...


This.  

Must admit I, ahem, insulate myself from the news, so apart from knowing a group called insulate britain were stopping the traffic, I know nowt about the group itself.  From what I've read here, I'll go with the criticisms of it being middle class and, particularly, disconnected to people's lives. That's what I'd want to see, links to relevant unions and community campaigns around austerity and fuel poverty. That's a way to link climate change to class.  But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future.  In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 15, 2021)

Wilf said:


> But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future.  In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.


Loft insulation is a world level disaster? 
The arrogance of some people is astounding, thinking they can put even the slightest dent in the CO2 problem by throwing money at poorly insulated houses.   
There are answers to the problems we're facing but loft insulation isn't one of them. Desalination of sea water, coupled with irrigation and planting of deserts. They're the things that will save us in the long term, and oil companies, along with all other mega corps, should be forced to pay for it. Placing the onus on the individual is merely a con. It's classic smoke and mirrors bullshit to make people believe that their individual actions can somehow offset the actions of greedy capitalists... Look over there!


----------



## BigTom (Oct 15, 2021)

two sheds said:


> New one? The one I remember was 70s?, waiting for a bus with diesel fumes surrounded. Then I went back once in 80s? did have bland shopping mall but you could actually breathe and would want to wander up and look at nearby attractive looking shops (that I couldn't afford but that's not the point).
> 
> I'll swear I remember walking round the jewellers/watchmakers area in Birmingham - loads of old terraced houses with real charm. I think they pulled it down though .


That was the old bullring. By the time i knew it in the late 90s it was probably quite run down compared to the 70s/80s. Units were cheap so shops and stalls reflected that with affordable shops. The new bullring was built in the late 00s i think and is selfridges and debenhams. Looking to sell to a different group of people imo.

The change was necessary and overall good but the new markets were never the same as the old ones.




elbows said:


> I've not been since the Custard Factory days! I'd like to see it some time, will probably wait till that part of the tram is done, whats the schedule for it? Cheers!



The roadworks on the high street should finish summer next year but the tram line is not scheduled to be fully open until 2025 so i don't know what's going on there, maybe the section to link up the high street to the rest of the network is going to take that time.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 15, 2021)

chilango said:


> If we banned private cars the emergency services would be able to get everywhere quicker.


But if we banned private cars the economy would grind to a halt and there would be no taxes to pay for emergency services.


----------



## maomao (Oct 15, 2021)

1927 said:


> But if we banned private cars the economy would grind to a halt and there would be no taxes to pay for emergency services.


The economy probably needs to come to a halt. The vast majority of things people call 'work' are pointless.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 15, 2021)

Banning private cars is exactly the kind of wildly impractical authoritarian nonsense that gets environmentalists ignored by normal people. Because it's quite obviously indicative of a desire to reshape society according to some hippie vision, rather than any earnest proposal for curbing pollution or carbon emissions.

If someone proposed banning trains because the collectivist nature of their operation is communism by stealth, they'd be rightly dismissed as a wingnut.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 15, 2021)

maomao said:


> The economy probably needs to come to a halt. The vast majority of things people call 'work' are pointless.


Theres a bit of a problem with that idea.


----------



## maomao (Oct 15, 2021)

1927 said:


> Theres a bit of a problem with that idea.


There are several. And many more with continuing as we are.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2021)

The current shape of society is one that can't sustain human life for much longer - not sure why there's a problem with people wanting to reshape it.


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2021)

As, probably, the most vocal proponent of "banning cars" I should clarify before we get too de-railed.

I'm not demanding that the Government ban cars. I would like a shift in social culture so that private car use is no longer celebrated or defended but rather is widely regarded as a harmful act that people should strive a lot harder to avoid.

However...simply raising the idea of "banning cars" is a useful way of focussing attention on policy around transport.

Finally, car use as it currently stands is not only harmful, but also unsustainable. Incremental moves towards banning cars are already underway and have been for some time. The question is who drives* these moves? Communities or Capital?


*See what I did there?


----------



## LDC (Oct 15, 2021)

Wilf said:


> This.
> 
> Must admit I, ahem, insulate myself from the news, so apart from knowing a group called insulate britain were stopping the traffic, I know nowt about the group itself.  From what I've read here, I'll go with the criticisms of it being middle class and, particularly, disconnected to people's lives. That's what I'd want to see, links to relevant unions and community campaigns around austerity and fuel poverty. That's a way to link climate change to class.  But ultimately, fucking hell, this a world level disaster, genuinely, a catastrophe for now and a catastrophe for the future.  In that context I'm not that worried about someone's commute.



But it's not _really_ about delaying the commute for individuals that people that are saying is the problem is it? It's about whether pissing off some people by blocking traffic (and the accompanying 'bad press') is on balance a negative impact that's worth having to help achieve the aims of the action and the group (and wider change in society)?

And, if it is such an unfolding global catastrophe, why are they doing such lame and well behaved actions and protests? Their stated reason is to maintain 'public support' but somehow that doesn't seem to be a factor is this type of action?

It's 'be very passive and polite' but then do something that pisses off people and has no real impact in reducing carbon emissions or directly achieving the goals you want, which makes it a glorified publicity stunt, not direct action.


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But it's not _really_ about delaying the commute for individuals that people that are saying is the problem is it? It's about whether pissing off some people by blocking traffic (and the accompanying 'bad press') is on balance a negative impact that's worth having to help achieve the aims of the action and the group (and wider change in society)?
> 
> And, if it is such an unfolding global catastrophe, why are they doing such lame and well behaved actions and protests? Their stated reason is to maintain 'public support' but somehow that doesn't seem to be a factor is this type of action?
> 
> It's 'be very passive and polite' but then do something that pisses off people and has no real impact in reducing carbon emissions or directly achieving the goals you want, which makes it a glorified publicity stunt, not direct action.



* Mutters something Leninist about strategy and tactics. *

...yeah, it's a core problem with this kind of thing. The missing piece - which I don't think any of us have right now - is how to bridge the gap between these actions and mass collective acts of refusal.


----------



## LDC (Oct 15, 2021)

Also (and it's really obvious) but so much of what we think on stuff like this is shaped and directed by the media and what they say (even if we try and avoid it, or know it's biased and inaccurate) it's important to remember that if we're antagonistic or unsupportive of this action (and others like it), it is quite likely to be in some part that we've absorbed the negative press about it.


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> Also (and it's really obvious) but so much of what we think on stuff like this is shaped and directed by the media and what they say (even if we try and avoid it, or know it's biased and inaccurate) it's important to remember that if we're antagonistic or unsupportive of this action (and others like it), it is quite likely to be in some part that we've absorbed the negative press about it.



...and for all the - correct - criticisms we might have about Insulate Britain, even the perfect campaign would face the same manufactured opposition.


----------



## LDC (Oct 15, 2021)

chilango said:


> * Mutters something Leninist about strategy and tactics. *
> 
> ...yeah, it's a core problem with this kind of thing. The missing piece - which I don't think any of us have right now - is how to bridge the gap between these actions and mass collective acts of refusal.



Compared to other stuff that's happened/happening there's stuff about climate change that makes it very difficult tying effective and 'good' (on a wider more radical level) political action to it...

It's obviously a global problem and needs global solutions, it is in part also a problem due to people's behaviour and our individual and collective refusal to change, it is largely going to require State and corporate intervention to sort out, it's possible (even likely) it could get sorted in a way that's inequitable and terrible for many people, it's very hard to directly impact carbon emissions themselves, it very easily slips into personal lifestyle change (and that's not without validity), etc.


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Oct 15, 2021)

What I will just add, is that I'm sure Insulate Britain mean well, despite their counter-productive actions. And they are definitely not terrorists, that's just crazy talk by right wing loons.


----------



## Wilf (Oct 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Loft insulation is a world level disaster?


Y'know, is it just possible I was referring to climate change as a whole as the world level disaster?


----------



## Wilf (Oct 15, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> But it's not _really_ about delaying the commute for individuals that people that are saying is the problem is it? It's about whether pissing off some people by blocking traffic (and the accompanying 'bad press') is on balance a negative impact that's worth having to help achieve the aims of the action and the group (and wider change in society)?
> 
> And, if it is such an unfolding global catastrophe, why are they doing such lame and well behaved actions and protests? Their stated reason is to maintain 'public support' but somehow that doesn't seem to be a factor is this type of action?
> 
> It's 'be very passive and polite' but then do something that pisses off people and has no real impact in reducing carbon emissions or directly achieving the goals you want, which makes it a glorified publicity stunt, not direct action.


I'll admit, they probably fail on most criteria for a decent protest.  It's just in the context of things being so bad - and the absence of better protests/movements - I'm not going to be too critical. The other thing is, whilst pissing drivers off is a genuine problem, I can't conceive of piling in on anything that looks like 'defending motorists'* because that's ultimately part of the problem.  

* Realising you are not framing it like that.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2021)

Wilf said:


> Y'know, is it just possible I was referring to climate change as a whole as the world level disaster?


Saul isn't interested in a real discussion, he's just another nihilist. I wouldn't waste your time.


----------



## Flavour (Oct 15, 2021)

The ignore function is your friend


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> Saul isn't interested in a real discussion, he's just another nihilist. I wouldn't waste your time.


Obligatory


----------



## maomao (Oct 15, 2021)

I remember a bullshitting colleague years ago who was droning on about how none of the big political theories worked. He claimed to have 'tried' communism, socialism, fascism etc. and found them all to be ineffective. So just to try and outmanoeuvre him I told him I was a nihilist. He gave me a knowing look and said 'tried that, doesn't work'.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Why? What's wrong with picketing outside factories after people have arrived at work, and preventing trucks from entering or leaving? That way the workers get paid and it hits the companies.



It might annoy the truck driver though.


----------



## ska invita (Oct 15, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> What I will just add, is that I'm sure Insulate Britain mean well, despite their counter-productive actions. A



You cant prove their actions are counter-productive. If insulation (or general climate change prevention methods) move up the agenda faster than mightve otherwise then their actions are productive. There is no way of measuring that.
I would expect that their actions are productive. At the least they are adding to a culture of civil disobedience on the issue of climate change


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

ska invita said:


> You cant prove their actions are counter-productive. If insulation (or general climate change prevention methods) move up the agenda faster than mightve otherwise then their actions are productive. There is no way of measuring that.
> I would expect that their actions are productive. At the least they are adding to a culture of civil disobedience on the issue of climate change


be nice if you could offer more than your expectation that their actions are productive


----------



## Carvaged (Oct 15, 2021)

This is by far one of the most effective pro-environment campaigns of recent years. Well done to all the wankers involved. Better than starting up a shop on Amazon and channel on YouTube selling pro-insulation merch, I tell ya!


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

Carvaged said:


> This is by far one of the most effective pro-environment campaigns of recent years. Well done to all the wankers involved. Better than starting up a shop on Amazon and channel on YouTube selling pro-insulation merch, I tell ya!


perhaps you could outline the criteria against which you mark their effectiveness


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2021)

I think forcing your specific climate change tackling proposals into the evening news bulletins immediately before the country you live in hosts an international conference on climate change could prove to be very effective.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 15, 2021)

It's not effective if it moves things up the agenda or whatever. It's only effective if as a result: a) more homes are insulated more quickly, and b) this reduces CO2 more quickly than would otherwise have been the case.


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> I think forcing your specific climate change tackling proposals into the evening news bulletins immediately before the country you live in hosts an international conference on climate change could prove to be very effective.


i wish i could share your optimism: but there's getting something on the news and there's getting something on the news in such a way that it resonates with the wider population. i don't think that these elitist and substitutionist actions have quite the traction you suggest. if you had a thousand people blocking a motorway or blocking motorways around the country then they wouldn't be so easily derided


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 15, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It's not effective if it moves things up the agenda or whatever. It's only effective if as a result: a) more homes are insulated more quickly, and b) this reduces CO2 more quickly than would otherwise have been the case


if their aim is moving things up the agenda then they have been successful. but things can as easily descend as ascend the agenda.


----------



## maomao (Oct 15, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i wish i could share your optimism: but there's getting something on the news and there's getting something on the news in such a way that it resonates with the wider population. i don't think that these elitist and substitutionist actions have quite the traction you suggest. if you had a thousand people blocking a motorway or blocking motorways around the country then they wouldn't be so easily derided


We'll go and join in then. If your only criticism is that there's not enough of them. I'm sure the plan was for thousands of them to be doing it.


----------



## elbows (Oct 15, 2021)

Saul Goodman said:


> Loft insulation is a world level disaster?
> The arrogance of some people is astounding, thinking they can put even the slightest dent in the CO2 problem by throwing money at poorly insulated houses.
> There are answers to the problems we're facing but loft insulation isn't one of them. Desalination of sea water, coupled with irrigation and planting of deserts. They're the things that will save us in the long term, and oil companies, along with all other mega corps, should be forced to pay for it. Placing the onus on the individual is merely a con. It's classic smoke and mirrors bullshit to make people believe that their individual actions can somehow offset the actions of greedy capitalists... Look over there!


We need to focus on ALL the issues on every front, considering both climate change and availability and cost of fuels and peoples ability to stay warm etc.

The energy we use to heat our homes is significant. Using one particular source of numbers.....  (http://www.energyenvoys.org.uk/sites/default/files/What's energy used for_0.pdf )

61% of our domestic energy use is used for space heating!!! Obviously transport and industry make up large chunks of the total energy picture too, but to ignore the energy we use in homes is just bloody stupid.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It's not effective if it moves things up the agenda or whatever. It's only effective if as a result: a) more homes are insulated more quickly, and b) this reduces CO2 more quickly than would otherwise have been the case.


Your faith that the backroom boys are beavering away on a top-secret solution at some latter-day Bletchley Park and they mustn't be disturbed until they're ready is very charming, but I think it's reasonable for some people to worry that isn't happening and try to force the issue.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> Your faith that the backroom boys are beavering away on a top-secret solution at some latter-day Bletchley Park and they mustn't be disturbed until they're ready is very charming, but I think it's reasonable for some people to worry that isn't happening and try to force the issue.



Sure, but "moving things up the agenda" isn't forcing anything if it has no effect on insulating homes or carbon emission reduction. If protests are to be judged on headlines and chit chat rather than actual change then we should probably congratulate the EDL.


----------



## killer b (Oct 15, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If protests are to be judged on headlines and chit chat rather than actual change then we should probably congratulate the EDL.


Populist right wing politics and anti-immigrant rhetoric has disappeared totally in the last few years. The EDL totally failed.


----------



## Saul Goodman (Oct 15, 2021)

killer b said:


> Saul isn't interested in a real discussion, he's just another nihilist. I wouldn't waste your time.


I think realist is the word you were looking for.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 15, 2021)

chilango said:


> Incremental moves towards banning cars are already underway and have been for some time.



That's called a slippery slope fallacy. Just because there has been a trend towards things like traffic calming measures and pedestrianised areas, does not mean that trend will continue unabated all the way to banning private motor vehicles.


----------



## chilango (Oct 15, 2021)

NoXion said:


> That's called a slippery slope fallacy. Just because there has been a trend towards things like traffic calming measures and pedestrianised areas, does not mean that trend will continue unabated all the way to banning private motor vehicles.



Perhaps not. 

...but I'm not just talking about "traffic calming measures and pedestrianised areas," I'm talking about actual bans. Places that prohibit the entry or use of private motor vehicles.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 15, 2021)

elbows said:


> We need to focus on ALL the issues on every front, considering both climate change and availability and cost of fuels and peoples ability to stay warm etc.
> 
> The energy we use to heat our homes is significant. Using one particular source of numbers.....  (http://www.energyenvoys.org.uk/sites/default/files/What's energy used for_0.pdf )
> 
> ...



If the energy used by for home heating was derived entirely from nuclear fission and renewables, that would go a long way to reducing carbon emissions no matter what the state of home insulation is in this country.

Home insulation is of course worthwhile, but without a root-and-branch change in how the energy is generated in the first place, it's ultimately fussing around the the edges.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 15, 2021)

chilango said:


> Perhaps not.
> 
> ...but I'm not just talking about "traffic calming measures and pedestrianised areas," I'm talking about actual bans. Places that prohibit the entry or use of private motor vehicles.



It's still fallacious to think that such things would or should necessarily lead to banning private motor vehicles across the board. Banning private cars from a particular city centre or whatever is quite a different proposition from banning them across the entire country. You know this.


----------



## elbows (Oct 15, 2021)

NoXion said:


> If the energy used by for home heating was derived entirely from nuclear fission and renewables, that would go a long way to reducing carbon emissions no matter what the state of home insulation is in this country.
> 
> Home insulation is of course worthwhile, but without a root-and-branch change in how the energy is generated in the first place, it's ultimately fussing around the the edges.


I'm pretty sure most plans require a big chunk of the heavy lifting of climate change mitigation and energy transition to be handled on the demand side.

Perhaps this massive side of the picture is one of the key aspects that continues to elude quite a lot of peoples understanding of what the story of the century will involve, but I expect there will be moments to come that will make this aspect painfully clear to all.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 15, 2021)

elbows said:


> I'm pretty sure most plans require a big chunk of the heavy lifting of climate change mitigation and energy transition to be handled on the demand side.



Because the plans are being drawn up by the same idiots who think closing down nuclear plants and replacing them with Russian gas is a good idea. So I've not exactly got the greatest confidence in said plans.


----------



## elbows (Oct 15, 2021)

The demand side of things is not 'fussing around the edges'. It is fundamental to how much needs to be done on supply side, and how that compares to what is actually possible and sustainable. And also relevant to reallocating one use of energy to a different purpose, for example when having to deal with great reductions in the amount of liquid fuel available for transport.

I dont spend long seriously engaging with people who seek to diminish half the picture. Its absurd to be that narrow and misses the point.


----------



## 1927 (Oct 15, 2021)

If the achieved their aims it would make no difference to global warming! They are protesting against the wrong people!


----------



## NoXion (Oct 16, 2021)

elbows said:


> The demand side of things is not 'fussing around the edges'. It is fundamental to how much needs to be done on supply side, and how that compares to what is actually possible and sustainable. And also relevant to reallocating one use of energy to a different purpose, for example when having to deal with great reductions in the amount of liquid fuel available for transport.
> 
> I dont spend long seriously engaging with people who seek to diminish half the picture. Its absurd to be that narrow and misses the point.



The point is to reduce carbon emissions, or so I've been lead to believe. Improving the efficiency of energy usage can be helpful in that goal, but that energy has to be generated in the first place, and how that is done matters. 

I'm extremely leery of the solutions being pushed which are dominated by demand-side measures. People should not be forced to downgrade their lifestyles because of the petrofuels industry's desperate push to remain relevant.


----------



## Gramsci (Oct 16, 2021)

Insulate Britain - Insulate Britain
					

Humanity is at a pivotal crossroads: accelerated human-caused global heating is threatening to destroy human civilisation unless urgent action is taken to rapidly reduce our greenhouse gas emissions (GHG). The science is not disputed and now is the time to act. Improving the quality of our homes...




					www.insulatebritain.com
				




Had a look at their demands. Insulate all social housing. Plan to retrofit all housing with no externalised costs. By which I understand this would be state input not the ordinary Joe.

All sounds good to me.

They emphasise Just Transition.

This would imo be good as it would lower fuel bills, create useful work and be long term permanent improvement to countries infrastructure. Progressive Keynesianism.

I've seen how green measures have been attempted to be made in my area Lambeth. I think this campaign has learned lessons from way green measures have been implemented poorly. As in Lambeth.

Instead of taking something away from people it's showing that green measures could improve ordinary people's lifestyle.

In my experience there is section of green politics who are moralistic and put transition first and Just a poor second. Even if they say they are concerned about inequality.

So I'm do donating to their campaign. Donation for crowdfunder is linked to their website.


----------



## elbows (Oct 16, 2021)

NoXion said:


> The point is to reduce carbon emissions, or so I've been lead to believe. Improving the efficiency of energy usage can be helpful in that goal, but that energy has to be generated in the first place, and how that is done matters.
> 
> I'm extremely leery of the solutions being pushed which are dominated by demand-side measures. People should not be forced to downgrade their lifestyles because of the petrofuels industry's desperate push to remain relevant.



Part of the curse of fossil fuels is that there were periods of seemingly abundant supply which encouraged entirely inappropriate levels of consumption, waste, and a range of shit priorities and unsustainable activities and economic orders. And an entirely inappropriate sense of the true cost of energy.

There are all manner of demand-side measures which I will be unhappy about the implications of, and which will form a great part of the tales of woe to come. Plenty of countries have already faced dramatic political turmoil and disruption as a result of basic fuel subsidies for poor people being deliberately eroded. But that doesnt mean I will be ignoring the realities of how much consumption we need to stop indulging in. Rather the emphasis should be on equality and who ends up paying. eg people should have a right to a home that can be maintained at a decent temperature, an issue that must be tackled on numerous fronts including efficient use of energy.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 19, 2021)

A shocking clip here from the Thurrock protests. Having to get your 11 year old son by car isn’t an ambulance needing to reach a hospital, and at 11 most kids would be able to make their own way to school unless disabled I should think. 









						Video shows Range Rover pushing Insulate Britain activist at sit-in
					

Driver seen inching car forwards on to protesters blocking road in Thurrock as onlookers goad her on




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 19, 2021)

Why is it shocking? No one was hurt. They have chosen to sit in the road and chosen to remain there. If someone’s blocking a doorway and doesn’t move when I say excuse me, I’ll barge past them whilst being careful to ensure I don’t injure them.


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 19, 2021)

Not sure you can drive over someone without injuring them, however careful you may be.


----------



## WouldBe (Oct 19, 2021)

I voted No. I don't agree with how they are going about it but do agree that buildings should be a lot better insulated. They would do better if they went out and physically did some insulating.


----------



## l'Otters (Oct 20, 2021)

Not sure how useful a contribution to the discussion this is, but anything with "Britain" in the title puts me off.


----------



## NoXion (Oct 20, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> A shocking clip here from the Thurrock protests. Having to get your 11 year old son by car isn’t an ambulance needing to reach a hospital, and at 11 most kids would be able to make their own way to school unless disabled I should think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Block enough roads and sooner or later someone will try to push past you. It's naive to assume that everyone is going to be patient with such stunts.


----------



## platinumsage (Oct 20, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> Not sure you can drive over someone without injuring them, however careful you may be.



No one got driven over


----------



## mojo pixy (Oct 20, 2021)

It's only a matter of time. It's all escalating, egged on by media and politicunts  (sp?)

First person to get run down, odds...
Audi/BMW 3-1
White van 2-1
Range Rover evens


----------



## maomao (Oct 20, 2021)

Elpenor said:


> A shocking clip here from the Thurrock protests. Having to get your 11 year old son by car isn’t an ambulance needing to reach a hospital, and at 11 most kids would be able to make their own way to school unless disabled I should think.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I work quite near there in a newish town with lots of car-free foot paths and bike lanes. Barely anyone comes to the school from more than about 15 minutes walk away but there's a 45 minute traffic jam outside it every day because people are idiots. The wanker in that clip should be done for assault but she won't.


----------



## maomao (Oct 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If someone’s blocking a doorway and doesn’t move when I say excuse me, I’ll barge past them whilst being careful to ensure I don’t injure them.


While I'm aware that our images of people we communicate with online are rarely accurate, the mental picture that post gave me is comedy gold.


----------



## maomao (Oct 25, 2021)

It seems that far from being some unlikely plan to get their own homes insulated Insulate Britain were in fact cannon fodder hoping to be made martyrs. 









						Why aren’t we in prison, ask Insulate Britain protesters
					

Fresh wave of direct action is planned before Cop26 summit opens




					www.theguardian.com


----------



## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If someone’s blocking a doorway and doesn’t move when I say excuse me, I’ll barge past them whilst being careful to ensure I don’t injure them.


there may be a very good reason for them not to let you pass, for example a great hole in the floor.


----------



## bemused (Oct 25, 2021)

I support their aims, but their execution seems to be awful whenever they are on TV they get dragged into how much loft insulation they have. When I see XR are TV they seem to be much better at sticking to their core message and just hand wave away the silly stuff.


----------



## MikeMcc (Oct 25, 2021)

The overall aims are good, but isn't going to happen.  Their methods though are self-centred and counter productive.  They seem to be doing it to make themselves 'look good', but in doing so all they are doing is upset working people. It's not going to win them many friends or promote their aims beyond those that don't already understand the issues already.


----------



## Magnus McGinty (Oct 25, 2021)

There’s infinite ways to disrupt the movement of capital that doesn’t necessarily piss off workers going about their business.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

kebabking said:


> Dead easy - I don't support then, in fact I oppose them, because I find it easy to differentiate between the aim/cause and anyone who supports it.
> 
> I take the view that their actions - including winding up middle class mums in SUV's - are actually turning people against the aim, given that it would make them more comfortable and save them money on heating bills, that they'd otherwise be supportive of.
> 
> I oppose EU membership, but I think Farage is an excreciable shit, I believe in healthcare free at the point of delivery, regardless of ability to pay, but I think the NHS is a monolith of inefficiency and bad outcomes...


I attended an early IB meeting, & told Liam Norton that alienating people isn't a good way to make a political point stick in the mass consciousness. I also made it clear that with local authority funding the way it is, & with Tories likely to be in Downing St until 2029, LA funding won't get any better, so the retrofitting of council housing to Passivhaus or EnerPhit standard is a non-starter.
The daft thing is, campaigning hard - but not obstructively - to make housing refurb materials non-VATable would have lit a fire under retrofit in a way that blocking motorways never can.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

Count Cuckula said:


> Insulate Britain is a spin off of XR (and has sprung 'into action' because of the failure of XR's 2 weeks of protest during the summer). Blocking roads is counter-productive and rightly enrages people. These activists, just like XR, are mainly white middle class folks, which is why they were initially treated with kid gloves by the police and I hear they were even brought cups of tea.
> 
> More effective forms of action would be occupations of buildings (such as corporate headquarters or empty commercial premises).
> 
> They are a wrong headed group and one that is ineffective and counter-productive. I, personally, do not support Insulate Britain.


IB isn't a "spin-off", although there is some crossover (unsurprisingly). XR is a much more "arts-oriented" grouping than IB.
& to be fair, most of the XR activists I know, wouldn't be stupid enough to block a motorway, as they've been at the receiving end of violence just for blocking a road junction!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

Sue said:


> Will no-one think of the middle class dads in their huge SUVs?


No. No, I won't. You can't make me!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> You are already on the list.


Who do you think you are, ernestolynch?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

chilango said:


> 100% support the protests.
> 
> In fact I think their demands are too moderate and - crucially - don't they're being disruptive enough.


They need to directly inconvenience/disrupt those in power & those with influence - perhaps throw a cordon sanitaire around Hampstead, & another around Wimbledon?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

Edie said:


> Disruption only causes resentment and has little or no impact. Economics has impact. Money. Wealth. Capitalism.


Depends who/what you disrupt.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Oct 25, 2021)

Serge Forward said:


> Or smash up a bus shelter.


Gets you beaten up by angry grannies, that does!


----------



## Edie (Oct 26, 2021)

ViolentPanda said:


> Depends who/what you disrupt.


Yeh I kinda thought again about that statement with killer b responses


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 26, 2021)




----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 26, 2021)

Amazing reporting from the British media again.



For those reluctant to click “you can grow concrete” about sums it up.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Amazing reporting from the British media again.
> 
> 
> 
> For those reluctant to click “you can grow concrete” about sums it up.



Beat you to it 

Although mine was actually from talk radio


----------



## fishfinger (Oct 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Amazing reporting from the British media again.
> 
> 
> 
> For those reluctant to click “you can grow concrete” about sums it up.



Of course you can grow concrete. Haven't you noticed how tall some of those skyscrapers can get!


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 26, 2021)

ruffneck23 said:


> Beat you to it
> 
> Although mine was actually from talk radio



Yeah fuck em I'm not giving them the clicks


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 26, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Of course you can grow concrete. Haven't you noticed how tall some of those skyscrapers can get!


Only in concrete jungles though.


----------



## Artaxerxes (Oct 26, 2021)

If you can't grow it why are they called concrete plants?


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Yeah fuck em I'm not giving them the clicks


Fair enough


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 26, 2021)

Artaxerxes said:


> Amazing reporting from the British media again.
> 
> 
> 
> For those reluctant to click “you can grow concrete” about sums it up.




Mike Graham and Talk Radio are the epitome of shithole Britain.


----------



## ruffneck23 (Oct 26, 2021)

oh my word, 5 hours later they come up with this...


----------



## Elpenor (Oct 26, 2021)

fishfinger said:


> Of course you can grow concrete. Haven't you noticed how tall some of those skyscrapers can get!


They respond well to sandy ground and sunshine as can be seen in Dubai


----------



## 8ball (Oct 26, 2021)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Mike Graham and Talk Radio are the epitome of shithole Britain.



I love the last bit - "That was Cameron, he grows trees and then cuts them down and makes things from them... brilliant, marvellous...".


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Oct 26, 2021)

8ball said:


> I love the last bit - "That was Cameron, he grows trees and then cuts them down and makes things from them... brilliant, marvellous...".



Mike Gammon is quite right - a decent Christian country like Britain is no place for fucking carpenters.


----------



## Hollis (Oct 26, 2021)

Gotta amire Mike Graham - an incredibly well-thought out attack line..


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 16, 2021)

It's High Court day for nine activists, with a chance of prison sentences being handed out.









						‘I could be jailed for two years for blocking roads with Insulate Britain’ - The Big Issue
					

‘ I’m scared, but I have the feeling that I’m doing the right thing,' says an Insulate Britain activist ahead of High Court hearing



					www.bigissue.com


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 16, 2021)

Like ‘em or loathe them this is a ballsy as fuck statement to make to the High Court:

Taylor told the court that if the judges did not send him to prison he would “go out and block the highway at the earliest opportunity”, adding: “And I will continue to do so until the government makes a meaningful statement and fucking acts on it,” he said, spurring a rebuke from Sharp for his language.

“If you send me away to prison, 10 people will step forward in my place,” Taylor said. “If you send each of us away, 100 people will step forward and take our places. If you send 100 of us away, 1,000 people will step forward to take our place.

“If you somehow manage to stop all non-violent protests, then things will only turn violent.”


----------



## Sue (Nov 16, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Like ‘em or loathe them this is a ballsy as fuck statement to make to the High Court:
> 
> Taylor told the court that if the judges did not send him to prison he would “go out and block the highway at the earliest opportunity”, adding: “And I will continue to do so until the government makes a meaningful statement and fucking acts on it,” he said, spurring a rebuke from Sharp for his language.
> 
> ...


Not sure it's ballsy, more Spartacus delusional...


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Of course it all comes down to how important they are, the vanguard of a courageous movement that marks a paradigm shift in human history, how their perspective is the true one. It’s like the FOTLers but with more ego.


----------



## RainbowTown (Nov 17, 2021)

Insulate Britain mob jailed for blocking M25… but at least HMP has thick walls
					

NINE Insulate Britain protesters were banged up yesterday for their road-blocking antics — but at least their new home has extra-thick walls. Two eco-zealots were today handed three month sentences…




					www.thesun.co.uk
				












						Nine Insulate Britain activists are jailed at the High Court
					

Nine Insulate Britain activists were today jailed at the High Court for breaching an injunction designed to prevent the group's road blockades on the M25 around London.




					www.dailymail.co.uk
				




Jailed and apparently ordered to pay £91,000. Ouch.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Of course it all comes down to how important they are, the vanguard of a courageous movement that marks a paradigm shift in human history, how their perspective is the true one. It’s like the FOTLers but with more ego.



A lot of that stuff about these days.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

To avoid those Sun & Mail links -









						Nine Insulate Britain activists jailed for breaching injunction to prevent road blockades
					

Insulate Britain, an offshoot of Extinction Rebellion, is a campaign group calling for better insulation for UK homes to help tackle the climate crisis.




					news.sky.com
				






> Submissions made by Ben Taylor, 37, to the court on Tuesday were described by Dame Victoria Sharp as "inflammatory" and a "call to arms", and he was therefore given a longer sentence of six months "to deter (him) from committing further breaches".



Well, he asked for it, and got it, the twat.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> To avoid those Sun & Mail links -
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Submissions made by Ben Taylor, 37, to the court on Tuesday were described by Dame Victoria Sharp as "inflammatory" and a "call to arms", and he was therefore given a longer sentence of six months "to deter (him) from committing further breaches".



Dame Victoria Sharp, will she go home today and think to herself that she has served justice, protected the country and people of the UK from a threat, a menace? Load of wank.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Dame Victoria Sharp, will she go home today and thing to herself that she has served justice, protected the country and people of the UK from a threat, a menace? Load of wank.



Perhaps you’d think differently if they went around torching Audis instead of pissing off actual working class people.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Perhaps you’d think differently if they went around torching Audis instead of pissing off actual working class people.



Mee-ow!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Perhaps you’d think differently if they went around torching Audis instead of pissing off actual working class people.



Have they been committing arson too? Missed that. Good for them!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

Anyone who supports short custodial sentences for minor crimes is a fucking prick, btw.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Have they been committing arson too? Missed that. Good for them!



Breaking High Court injunctions are taken very seriously, as they were fully aware of, to stand up in court and say you will continue to do so, is not going to go down well, is it?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> To avoid those Sun & Mail links -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Talking back to the beak and daring her to lock you up is probably not the smartest legal strategy going


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Breaking High Court injunctions are taken very seriously, as they were fully aware of, to stand up in court and say you will continue to do so, is not going to go down well, is it?





MickiQ said:


> Talking back to the beak and daring her to lock you up is probably not the smartest legal strategy going



Of course not, that's why he said it.

_They wanted to be sent to prison_, that's the whole point in their action. Dame Sharp has facilitated their protest.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

He clearly sees himself as a bit of a martyr and is expecting that this will rally more new recruits to the cause, he is probably going to be disappointed though.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Of course not, that's why he said it.
> 
> _They wanted to be sent to prison_, that's the whole point in their action. Dame Sharp has facilitated their protest.



Breaking the HC injunction is contempt of court, and a serious matter, so what else could she do?


MickiQ said:


> He clearly sees himself as a bit of a martyr and is expecting that this will rally more new recruits to the cause, he is probably going to be disappointed though.



Well I've seen this sort of thing before, in support of pirate radio and against the cannabis laws, what tends to happen is support melts away, because most people are not twats that want to end-up in prison.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anyone who supports short custodial sentences for minor crimes is a fucking prick, btw.



Since when was breaching a court order a minor crime? Do you think people who breach restraining orders shouldn't be jailed either?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Breaking the HC injunction is contempt of court, and a serious matter, so what else could she do?



Community service, installing insulation.



cupid_stunt said:


> Well I've seen this sort of thing before, in support of pirate radio and against the cannabis laws, what tends to happen is support melts away, because most people are not twats that want to end-up in prison.



IB are an offshoot of XR, whose strategy is to get as many arrested as possible and enough people have been willing to do that. People seem to feel quite strongly about for the forthcoming collapse of the planet's ecosystems, amazingly with more passion than people supporting pirate radio or weed do, two activities that carried on unabated regardless of court edicts.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Since when was breaching a court order a minor crime? Do you think people who breach restraining orders shouldn't be jailed either?




Superb levels of whataboutery there. What if they burned a car you no longer own? What if they beat up their ex? Got any more, for the lols and that.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Superb levels of whataboutery there. What if they burned a car you no longer own? What if they beat up their ex? Got any more, for the lols and that.



No, we're not talking about sentences for blocking motorways or domestic abuse, we're talking about sentences for violating a court order, which don't depend on whatever crimes led to that order being issued in the first place.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> No, we're not talking about sentences for blocking motorways or domestic abuse, we're talking about sentences for violating a court order, which don't depend on whatever crimes led to that order being issued in the first place.




No, they are in prison for blocking motorways, an act which was banned by a court order. 


Are you one of these cunts who supports women being banged up for non payment of TV licences?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Are you one of these cunts who supports women being banged up for non payment of TV licences?


You were just throwing accusations of whataboutery around, right?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> You were just throwing accusations of whataboutery around, right?




Yep. Whatabout it?


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> No, they are in prison for blocking motorways, an act which was banned by a court order.
> 
> 
> Are you one of these cunts who supports women being banged up for non payment of TV licences?



No, they are in prison for 'Contempt of Court', that's the crime, and is considered to be serious, as set out in the 'Contempt of Court Act, 1981'.

And, there's no way the High Court would have handed out a community service order, when they made it clear that would continue to be in 'Contempt of Court', and just end-up straight back in court.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Breaking High Court injunctions are taken very seriously, as they were fully aware of, to stand up in court and say you will continue to do so, is not going to go down well, is it?


This is begging  the question. Why is injunction-breaking taken seriously?  Because it is. It’s legitimate, however, to query whether it _should_ be.

The reason breaking an injunction is taken so seriously is because it is a threat to the state rather than an individual, and it’s the state who gets to set the rules. Sorry, but I don’t have to go along with that as a good reason.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, they are in prison for 'Contempt of Court', that's the crime, and is considered to be serious, as set out in the 'Contempt of Court Act, 1981'.
> 
> And, there's no way the High Court would have handed out a community service order, when they made it clear that would continue to be in 'Contempt of Court', and just end-up straight back in court.



And all those women whose lives were destroyed were inside for not paying the court ordered fine for non payment of TV licences. Only a twat would argue that they are not there for non payment of the fucking TV licence. This crowd are being done for blocking motorways, as when they started the state realised that there was nothing much they could do about it, other than this injunction bullshit.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> No, they are in prison for 'Contempt of Court', that's the crime, and is considered to be serious, as set out in the 'Contempt of Court Act, 1981'.
> 
> And, there's no way the High Court would have handed out a community service order, when they made it clear that would continue to be in 'Contempt of Court', and just end-up straight back in court.


Yeh. And what is it they did to breach the injunction?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh. And what is it they did to breach the injunction?



Hiding behind contempt of court or non-payment of fines is the refuge of scoundrels.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> And all those women whose lives were destroyed were inside for not paying the court ordered fine for non payment of TV licences. Only a twat would argue that they are not there for non payment of the fucking TV licence. This crowd are being done for blocking motorways, as when they started the state realised that there was nothing much they could do about it, other than this injunction bullshit.



I don't believe in people being jailed for non-payment of small fines, there're other options available, this matter is far more serious.



> Dame Victoria Sharp, sitting with Mr Justice Chamberlain, imposed jail sentences of between three and six months, saying: “The blocking of a junction on a major motorway could be expected to and was intended to cause serious inconvenience to a large number of people.”
> 
> She said the action was taken with a “conscientious motive”, but said the group had “*broken the social contract under which in a democratic society the public can properly be expected to tolerate such peaceful protest*.
> 
> “This was bound to give rise to frustration and anger”, she added, saying *the action had risked the safety of protestors and others.*





> In her sentencing remarks, Dame Victoria said the protestors had sought to present themselves as “martyrs” but the right to protest can only be tolerated “up to a point”.
> 
> “*Ordinary members of the public have rights too, including the right to use the highways*,” she said.
> 
> “*The public’s toleration of peaceful protest depends on an understanding that, in a society subject to the rule of law, the balance between the protestor’s right to protest and the right of members of the public to use the highways* is to be determined not by the say-so of the protestors, but according to the law, as applied in the circumstances of the particular case by independent and impartial courts.”


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't believe in people being jailed for non-payment of small fines, there're other options available, *this matter is far more serious.*



"You are doing something for which you can't be jailed. Carry on doing it and you'll be jailed."


Does that not strike you as wrong?


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "You are doing something for which you can't be jailed. Carry on doing it and you'll be jailed."
> 
> 
> Does that not strike you as wrong?


Nope sounds like clear cut contempt to me


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't believe in people being jailed for non-payment of small fines, there're other options available, this matter is far more serious.


So why weren't they charged for obstruction of the highway?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "You are doing something for which you can't be jailed. Carry on doing it and you'll be jailed."
> 
> 
> Does that not strike you as wrong?



Must say I don't really think in terms of "right and wrong" when it comes to the legal system.
This is just the escalation that is to be expected when power is directly challenged.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> Must say I don't really think in terms of "right and wrong" when it comes to the legal system.
> This is just the escalation that *is to be expected* when power is directly challenged.



Doesn't mean it should be accepted though.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Doesn't mean it should be accepted though.



They had already accepted the idea of going to prison before they got started.
One of them said in court that he would keep doing it unless imprisoned, and got what he wanted.

I suppose they could have been let off to immediately block the roads again, but I can't see that being a popular result.

I don't think the judge had the power to insulate everyone's homes, which would appear to be the only third option.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Nope sounds like clear cut contempt to me


What’s actually wrong with having contempt?  Why is it so bad that somebody should go to jail for it as a crime in its own right?  Again, you’re just begging  the question, so used to the idea that showing contempt for court is a heinous crime that you just take it as a given that showing contempt is worthy of whatever punishment they say it gets.  

I don’t see why a minor misdemeanour becomes worthy of jail just because of a lack of deference to the institutions of state. There are far worse things that don’t get jail time.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Reminds me of the naked rambler. Deliberately annoy the rest of society enough and you'll get put away.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> They had already accepted the idea of going to prison before they got started.
> One of them said in court that he would keep doing it unless imprisoned, and got what he wanted.
> 
> I suppose they could have been let off to immediately block the roads again, but I can't see that being a popular result.
> ...


Why is it the judge’s problem to police what happens next?  He committed a misdemeanour, he got a punishment for it. If he does it again, let the police deal with it. It shouldn’t be the judge’s job to do whatever it takes to prevent him repeating his act.


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> What’s actually wrong with having contempt?  Why is it so bad that somebody should go to jail for it as a crime in its own right?  Again, you’re just begging  the question, so used to the idea that showing contempt for court is a heinous crime that you just take it as a given that showing contempt is worthy of whatever punishment they say it gets.
> 
> I don’t see why a minor misdemeanour becomes worthy of jail just because of a lack of deference to the institutions of state. There are far worse things that don’t get jail time.


Contempt is  there as learning curve.
Come back when you respect the seriousness of your situation.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Why is it the judge’s problem to police what happens next?  He committed a misdemeanour, he got a punishment for it. If he does it again, let the police deal with it. It shouldn’t be the judge’s job to do whatever it takes to prevent him repeating his act.



The judge's opinions about liability to re-offend are commonly taken into account when sentencing.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Contempt is  there as learning curve.
> Come back when you respect the seriousness of your situation.


You’re still taking it as a given that this should be the case

I think it’s an (unsurprising) abuse of power to punish people for not taking you seriously enough. Why is not taking something seriously a crime in its own right?


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> The judge's opinions about liability to re-offend are commonly taken into account when sentencing.


He didn’t get sentenced for the misdemeanour itself though, did he?  He got sentenced for contempt.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You’re still taking it as a given that this should be the case
> 
> I think it’s an (unsurprising) abuse of power to punish people for not taking you seriously enough. Why is not taking something seriously a crime in its own right?



If I knock on your door and say "Hi kabbes, just wanted to say hi" once you'll probably be mildly annoyed. If I do it every three minutes 24/7 for ever you'll want to make me stop. Just because the actual one-off action doesn't warrant a restraining order, doesn't mean that you won't eventually get fed up enough by it's repetition to try and obtain one.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> IB are an offshoot of XR, whose strategy is to get as many arrested as possible and enough people have been willing to do that. People seem to feel quite strongly about for the forthcoming collapse of the planet's ecosystems, amazingly with more passion than people supporting pirate radio or weed do, two activities that carried on unabated regardless of court edicts.


People do feel a lot more strongly about environmental issues these days and it is certainly an issue that is much more 'front and centre' in politics. The downside of this is that nutty fringe groups (who have always been with us) have a tendency to try and legitimise their actions by declaring their green credentials or claiming 'they're saving the planet' . IB and XB definitely fall into this category as far as I can see.
The irony of IB is that their stated aim of a large scale policy of insulating homes isn't really all that radical. Had they been willing to be take a longer term view and be less confrontational they might very well have got somewhere with it.


Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Doesn't mean it should be accepted though.


Yes it should, the court system imperfect though it may be is preferable to the alternative which is anarchy.


kabbes said:


> Why is it the judge’s problem to police what happens next?  He committed a misdemeanour, he got a punishment for it. If he does it again, let the police deal with it. It shouldn’t be the judge’s job to do whatever it takes to prevent him repeating his act.


Because it will go round and round like the Magic Roundabout, guy walks out of the courtroom, blocks the road, walks out of the courtroom, blocks the road, walks out of the courtroom, blocks the road until someone runs him over or he dies of old age.
Both the judge and the police are parts of the same system and acting otherwise makes a mockery of it.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> He didn’t get sentenced for the misdemeanour itself though, did he?  He got sentenced for contempt.



Yes, see what I said before about power and escalation.
I was answering your question about whether "what happens next" is the business of the judge.


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> You’re still taking it as a given that this should be the case
> 
> I think it’s an (unsurprising) abuse of power to punish people for not taking you seriously enough. Why is not taking something seriously a crime in its own right?



Think it can be a necessary use of power myself.  Though you are at liberty to bancrupt yourself and/  or escape and spend the rest of life on the run if you want to,  failing that come back once you've a better grasp of your circumstance.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If I knock on your door and say "Hi kabbes, just wanted to say hi" once you'll probably be mildly annoyed. If I do it every three minutes 24/7 for ever you'll want to make me stop. Just because the actual one-off action doesn't warrant a restraining order, doesn't mean that you won't eventually get fed up enough by it's repetition to try and obtain one.


But the repetition could be judged as an aggressive act in its own right.  It doesn’t require the concept of contempt to be involved.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> Yes, see what I said before about power and escalation.
> I was answering your question about whether "what happens next" is the business of the judge.


It is the business of the judge in imposing a sentence for a crime, yes.  That’s not what is happening here, though.  In this case, the man is getting a custodial sentence for committing the crime of contempt, end of story.  And people are so used to the idea of this being normal that they are arguing it is appropriate merely because _that’s the way it works_.  As if they way it works is an act of God rather than being an invention of the state.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It is the business of the judge in imposing a sentence for a crime, yes.  That’s not what is happening here, though.  In this case, the man is getting a custodial sentence for committing the crime of contempt, end of story.  And people are so used to the idea of this being normal that they are arguing it is appropriate merely because _that’s the way it works_.  As if they way it works is an act of God rather than being an invention of the state.



I wasn't arguing about appropriateness in any moral sense.  I was just pointing out that it's a natural outcome of a State that needs to defend its claim of monopoly on violence.

You raised a point about whether this should be accepted.  I'd say acceptance of this state of affairs was implied by the outburst which effectively was a command to be sent to prison.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Like ‘em or loathe them this is a ballsy as fuck statement to make to the High Court:
> 
> Taylor told the court that if the judges did not send him to prison he would “go out and block the highway at the earliest opportunity”, adding: “And I will continue to do so until the government makes a meaningful statement and fucking acts on it,” he said, spurring a rebuke from Sharp for his language.
> 
> ...



Well that worked didn't it? 

Ballsy as fuck, my arse!

The bloke's a fucking bellend extraordinaire. See how he feels when he gets out of stir and finds that as opposed to 10 people taking his place, support for this nonsense has melted away like snow on a stove!

Silly cunt.


----------



## gosub (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> It is the business of the judge in imposing a sentence for a crime, yes.  That’s not what is happening here, though.  In this case, the man is getting a custodial sentence for committing the crime of contempt, end of story.  And people are so used to the idea of this being normal that they are arguing it is appropriate merely because _that’s the way it works_.  As if they way it works is an act of God rather than being an invention of the state.


Judicary are independant of the State.  When my mum was a court reproter she had one who had the Head of the DVLA summonded to explain why his court was being mucked about.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

8ball said:


> I wasn't arguing about appropriateness in any moral sense.  I was just pointing out that it's a natural outcome of a State that needs to defend its claim of monopoly on violence.
> 
> You raised a point about whether this should be accepted.  I'd say acceptance of this state of affairs was implied by the outburst which effectively was a command to be sent to prison.


Oh yes, it’s unsurprising that the state acts to defend itself, like a wasp reacting to so attack on its nest. My objection is to people clapping it on when it does so.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Oh yes, it’s unsurprising that the state acts to defend itself, like a wasp reacting to so attack on its nest. My objection is to people clapping it on when it does so.



Agree there.  I see it was actually Bahnhof who raised the first point about whether it should be accepted.
Which brings it back round to your point I suppose - ie. there is a difference between accepting something and siding with it.

The standard legal justification of the concept of “contempt of court” is related to other offences involving interfering with the court’s ability to function.  Whether things such as “chewing gum and looking sullen” should come under this umbrella is up for debate.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> "You are doing something for which you can't be jailed. Carry on doing it and you'll be jailed."
> 
> 
> Does that not strike you as wrong?



Of course not. It's a perfectly reasonable warning.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Ridiculous assertion.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Ridiculous assertion.



Is this just a placeholder that you’ll be updating later?  Best to follow the style guide and use pointy brackets.

Eg.

<insert strawmanning attempt here>


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Oh yes, it’s unsurprising that the state acts to defend itself, like a wasp reacting to so attack on its nest. My objection is to people clapping it on when it does so.


The power of the state also defends individuals against each other, An order keeping an abusive husband away from his ex would be pretty pointless if the courts had no power to jail him for ignoring their order.
There needs to be a 'state' i.e. an actor who is stronger than any individual and can thus protect rights that individuals cannot protect themselves. There are certainly arguments for improved accountability, greater democratic control etc but it still needs to exist since there is always going to a certain percentage of the population that will always consider themselves not bound by whatever rules the rest agree to.


----------



## andysays (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> I don't believe in people being jailed for non-payment of small fines, there're other options available, this matter is far more serious.


Some might argue that the matter which they're protesting about is also quite serious.

We can argue the toss about whether their protest is likely to be effective,  whether some of them are unpleasant or delusional individuals, or even whether their actions are pissing off "actual working class people", but anyone who still thinks that the issue at the root of these protests isn't one of the most serious we currently face really hasn't been paying attention.

So if I have to pick a side between the protesters being sent down today and the state and various other powerful interests opposing them, I know who gets my support.


----------



## kabbes (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> The power of the state also defends individuals against each other, An order keeping an abusive husband away from his ex would be pretty pointless if the courts had no power to jail him for ignoring their order.
> There needs to be a 'state' i.e. an actor who is stronger than any individual and can thus protect rights that individuals cannot protect themselves. There are certainly arguments for improved accountability, greater democratic control etc but it still needs to exist since there is always going to a certain percentage of the population that will always consider themselves not bound by whatever rules the rest agree to.


There are ways to achieve all these things without normalising the idea that contempt of court is more serious than various crimes that injure actual people in the real world. You can deal with the specific harm, rather than placing it through the lens of a legal fiction.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

kabbes said:


> There are ways to achieve all these things without normalising the idea that contempt of court is more serious than various crimes that injure actual people in the real world. You can deal with the specific harm, rather than placing it through the lens of a legal fiction.


Such as what? How would you prevent this guy from going and blocking the road again?


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Judicary are independant of the State.




Are you taking the piss?

Family, Mags, Crown (clue in the name there), Supreme; all the courts have the coat of arms of the head of fucking state slapped on the wall behind the top judge's head.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 17, 2021)

andysays said:


> So if I have to pick a side between the protesters being sent down today and the state and various other powerful interests opposing them, I know who gets my support.



My support is for the rights of the majority of the general public to go about their business, without a tiny handful of protesters taking things beyond what is reasonable, and causing misery to thousands.

The general public have rights too.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Of course not. It's a perfectly reasonable warning.




Lickspittle.


----------



## andysays (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> My support is for the rights of the majority of the general public to go about their business, without a tiny handful of protesters taking things beyond what is reasonable, and causing misery to thousands.
> 
> The general public have rights too.


TBH, I think the idea that these protesters are genuinely causing misery to thousands is in itself a nonsense spread by the state and various other powerful interests opposing them.

It's a shame that you and other posters here who like to think of themselves as progressive or anti-authoritarian or even as having the ability to judge for themselves rather than being taken in by ideological propaganda have apparently been taken in to the extent you have.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> My support is for the rights of the majority of the general public to go about their business, without a tiny handful of protesters taking things beyond what is reasonable, and causing misery to thousands.
> 
> The general public have rights too.



How long should Reclaim the Streets have got?


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

There are no powerful interests opposing them, they make think there is but there isn't. The people they think they''re sticking it to don't care about them at all. A handful of self-centred nuts gluing themselves to the streets isn't challenging the social order it's just annoying other people who may or may not want the changes these clowns claim they want.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> There are no powerful interests opposing them, they make think there is but there isn't. The people they think they''re sticking it to don't care about them at all. A handful of self-centred nuts gluing themselves to the streets isn't challenging the social order it's just annoying other people who may or may not want the changes these clowns claim they want.


If that's the case then why don't the government just come out and say that? Why don't they sat 'we're on your side, there's no need to glue yourselves to the road and police vehicles, let us work together to publicise the insulation campaign' if as you say they're pushing at an open door


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> How long should Reclaim the Streets have got?



They didn't annoy the populace sufficiently to get this sort of injunction, which is only possible to get if you deliberately want to put yourself in prison to prove a point, like the naked rambler.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> They didn't annoy the populace sufficiently to get this sort of injunction, which is only possible to get if you deliberately want to put yourself in prison to prove a point, like the naked rambler.



Ehrm, repeatedly blocking roads, each time for far longer than IB, including one time planting a fucking tree in the middle of the carriageway of a motorway. So why do you think the populace was not sufficiently annoyed then but are now? Apart from the Mail not calling RTS "eco-zealots".


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 17, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Ehrm, repeatedly blocking roads, each time for far longer than IB, including one time planting a fucking tree in the middle of the carriageway of a motorway. So why do you think the populace was not sufficiently annoyed then but are now? Apart from the Mail not calling RTS "eco-zealots".



Following your/kabbes's argument, the state must have been less threatened by an organised group of anarchists than they are by a few middle class egotist guardian readers.


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> If that's the case then why don't the government just come out and say that? Why don't they sat 'we're on your side, there's no need to glue yourselves to the road and police vehicles, let us work together to publicise the insulation campaign' if as you say they're pushing at an open door


Because it has no need to do that either, why should it? the population isn't clamouring for it or demanding the government do anything, so why should a Govt that has just run up £2Trillion in public debt spend billions more to pacify a handful of noisy nobodies? If IB had focussed on getting the public to support them rather just trying to alienate them, they might have got much better results.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Lots of utter bollocks being posted here by people who really should know better. Contempt of court laws are also an enforcement device to prevent those convicted of offences from ignoring court rulings. The usual Urban75 hypocrisy is on show here in spades. When climate twats get on the wrong side of CoC, such laws are the embodiment of state power abuse, but when Tommy Robinson gets jailed for the same, they're the best thing since sliced bread and cause for celebration!


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Because it has no need to do that either, why should it? the population isn't clamouring for it or demanding the government do anything, so who should a Govt that has just run up £2Trillion in public debt spend billions more to pacify a handful of noisy nobodies? If IB had focussed on getting the public to support them rather just trying to alienate them, they might have got much better results.


That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read on the internet and as I'm sure you can imagine that's up against some stiff competition.

Should we really be a society where things only get done when people clamour for them? Should everything be done at the last minute? That's the sort of approach which leads to calamity. The position we're in isn't one any of us want - no one would wish to start working now to avert the worst climate change, but we are where we are. So it's unfortunate that we've only a few years to do fuck loads of work in but better to be indebted now and work to mitigate climate change than say sod it and leave a worse situation to young people down the line. I think ib must be onto something otherwise they wouldn't have garnered the coterie of reactionary scum who oppose them.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Lots of utter bollocks being posted here by people who really should know better. Contempt of court laws are an enforcement device to prevent those convicted of offences from ignoring court rulings. The usual Urban75 hypocrisy is on show here in spades. When climate twats get on the wrong side of CoC, such laws are the embodiment of state power abuse, but when Tommy Robinson gets jailed for the same, they're the best thing since sliced bread and cause for celebration!


Has anyone said that about the jailing of the abominable Robinson?


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Has anyone said that about the jailing of the abominable Robinson?



 Don't you remember the threads???


----------



## A380 (Nov 17, 2021)

gosub said:


> Judicary are independant of the State.  When my mum was a court reproter she had one who had the Head of the DVLA summonded to explain why his court was being mucked about.


They are one of the traditional three arms of the state. Legislature, Executive and Judiciary.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Don't you remember the threads???


I remember threads. I remember chuckling about his jailing. I don't remember raising a glass to British justice and legislation, the envy of the world


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's one of the stupidest posts I've ever read on the internet and as I'm sure you can imagine that's up against some stiff competition.
> 
> Should we really be a society where things only get done when people clamour for them? Should everything be done at the last minute? That's the sort of approach which leads to calamity. The position we're in isn't one any of us want - no one would wish to start working now to avert the worst climate change, but we are where we are. So it's unfortunate that we've only a few years to do fuck loads of work in but better to be indebted now and work to mitigate climate change than say sod it and leave a worse situation to young people down the line. I think ib must be onto something otherwise they wouldn't have garnered the coterie of reactionary scum who oppose them.


OK if things get done when people aren't demanding they get done, who gets to decide what is done?  Donald Trump? Boris Johnson? The Iluminati? Jeff Bexos? You?
Should things only get done when people clamour for them then hell yes otherwise how would we know as for the last minute no but that is a different and unrelated question.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> OK if things get done when people aren't demanding they get done, who gets to decide what is done?  Donald Trump? Boris Johnson? The Iluminati? Jeff Bexos? You?


 You're doubling down on dumb I see


----------



## MickiQ (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> You're doubling down on dumb I see


Come on you can do better than that, present an argument not insults


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I remember threads. I remember chuckling about his jailing. I don't remember raising a glass to British justice and legislation, the envy of the world



Can you remember the U75 outcry about the oh-so-inequitable contempt of court laws that he fell foul of?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Come on you can do better than that, present an argument not insults


I can indeed do better than that. But I see no reason to indulge you. Wtf has trump or 'bexos' or the Illuminati to do with this? Yeh the government of the day will decide - which is a great pity because they'll condemn those of us unlucky enough not to die in the next few years to a hellish existence, a life which may well be nasty, brutish and short.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can you remember the U75 outcry about the oh-so-inequitable contempt of court laws that he fell foul of?




Remember being miffed they didn't do the cunt for inciting racial hatred and giving him the maximum 7 years. Like the abusing ex strawmen lurking upthread, his actions related to committing unlawful violence upon the public, not delaying their journey by half an hour.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can you remember the U75 outcry about the oh-so-inequitable contempt of court laws that he fell foul of?


Not that clearly. Was it one of the episodes of the Athos show?


----------



## NoXion (Nov 17, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> Such as what? How would you prevent this guy from going and blocking the road again?



Confining him would seem to be a workable solution, one that the judge seems to agree would work. I suppose they could have given the gentleman an electronic tag, but considering his statements to the court, it wouldn't actually stop him, it would merely rat him out for straying too far from the house. Not sure what other options the judge may have had.

He directly and openly challenged the authority of the court. Fair play to him, and I hope he was fully aware of the potential consequences when he did so. But this idea that being punished for judicial defiance, especially when that defiance clearly includes the message that one will continue breaking the law, is somehow this unique and special outrage, when it is in fact the very function of the court - any court of law, come to think of it - to ensure that the law continues being upheld in one way or the other.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 17, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not that clearly.



No. 

Neither do I.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 17, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> No.
> 
> Neither do I.


Must have been a good night then


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2021)

this is so cuntish


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2021)

I dont think its funny...the Crusties...Tarquins...Glue Them To The Bars....Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha stuff is dangerous


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think its funny...the Crusties...Tarquins...Glue Them To The Bars....Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha stuff is dangerous


I see Aaron Tinney former editor of loaded and now freelance Aaron Tinney returns to freelance work - ResponseSource


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think its funny...the Crusties...Tarquins...Glue Them To The Bars....Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha stuff is dangerous



It's the Daily Star ffs.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It's the Daily Star ffs.


Nothing gets past you


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I dont think its funny...the Crusties...Tarquins...Glue Them To The Bars....Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha stuff is dangerous



I don't think the schadenfreude would be anywhere near as great if that fuckwit hadn't gobbed-off in court.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> I don't think the schadenfreude would be anywhere near as great if that fuckwit hadn't gobbed-off in court.


There are indeed times it is better to keep quiet and be thought a fool than pipe up and prove yourself one.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It's the Daily Star ffs.


I know

Theres already violent hostility against climate change activists, not just at flashpoints but pub chat is full of it
 this whole thing isnt all about to fade away, its only going to escalate as time goes on. Feels like someone will get hurt before long
Front pages like this just increase the chance of that


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> I know
> 
> Theres already violent hostility against climate change activists, not just at flashpoints but pub chat is full of it
> this whole thing isnt all about to fade away, its only going to escalate as time goes on. Feels like someone will get hurt before long
> Front pages like this just increase the chance of that


Climate change activists have set themselves in direct conflict with the public. Why have they done this?


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> Climate change activists have set themselves in direct conflict with the public. Why have they done this?


Be quiet and keep your little protests nicely and orderly confined to the pedestrianized square on Saturday afternoons _only _


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Be quiet and keep your little protests nicely and orderly confined to the pedestrianized square on Saturday afternoons _only _


False dichotomy


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> Be quiet and keep your little protests nicely and orderly confined to the pedestrianized square on Saturday afternoons _only _



 I have a strange feeling that there are a wide variety of possible protest activities when to it comes to climate change that would receive widespread public support, other than simply standing in a pedestrianised town square.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> False dichotomy


"direct conflict with the public" -- what are they doing, attacking them, bombing them? get a grip


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I have a strange feeling that there are a wide variety of possible protest activities when to it comes to climate change that would receive widespread public support, other than simply standing in a pedestrianised town square.


no shit


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

Blockade Australia: anti-coal activists vow more disruption despite warnings of 25-year jail sentences
					

Climate activists have used their bodies, rope and glue as part of ‘destructive action’ to block part of the coal supply chain in the Hunter




					www.theguardian.com
				




"direct conflict with the public"


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> "direct conflict with the public" -- what are they doing, attacking them, bombing them? get a grip



Except that conflict is exactly what they have chosen in many instances. They have stopped people going where they wanted to go and where they _needed_ to go, and not even by damaging infrastructure, but by sitting in the road directly in front of them, with no attempts at meaningful dialogue.  All of this in the hope of influencing politicians - not building a movement, but influencing them regardless of the views of anyone else.  They have shown contempt for the general public and as a result they are marginally less popular than scabies.

It's quite an achievement considering that the idea of improving home insulations is actually fairly popular.


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> "direct conflict with the public" -- what are they doing, attacking them, bombing them? get a grip


Conflict isn’t restricted to direct contact. These activists are setting themselves directly in conflict with ordinary Londoners. Unsurprisingly, they’re pissed off. That’s their intention isn’t it. What do I need to get a grip on?


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> "direct conflict with the public" -- what are they doing, attacking them, bombing them? get a grip



Basically they're imposing a police kettle on them. On the roads they're gluing themselves to, there's no escape if you can't drive forwards.


----------



## andysays (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> Conflict isn’t restricted to direct contact. These activists are setting themselves directly in conflict with ordinary Londoners. Unsurprisingly, they’re pissed off. That’s their intention isn’t it. What do I need to get a grip on?


I'm an ordinary Londoner, and I don't feel they're setting themselves directly (or even indirectly) in conflict with me, in the least.

But I suppose unlike some posters on this thread, I don't unthinkingly swallow the position of the Daily Star on every current issue.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Basically they're imposing a Section 60 kettle on them. On the roads they're gluing themselves to, there's no escape if you can't drive forwards.



You could leave your car, walk away from the evils of capitalism and live in the woods with the faerie folk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Basically they're imposing a police kettle on them. On the roads they're gluing themselves to, there's no escape if you can't drive forwards.


I don't think you know what a police kettle is. It's not a line of police in front of you, being kettled entails being surrounded by police


----------



## Athos (Nov 18, 2021)

I take no pleasure from them being imprisoned.  But they've been daft in how they've gone about things.

The overwhelming majority of people have sympathy with their aim to slow climate change, and most would stand to gain financially from the state footing the bill for insulation.  So, for IB to have made themselves so unpopular speaks volumes about how misconceived this tactic is.  (I get that they're demonised by the right-wing press, but the IB lot have presented them with an open goal.)

There's loads of things they could've done that'd impact on those whose policies need to change (whereas the current actions don't), and which the public would be happy to see (rather than just pissing them off).


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I don't think you know what a police kettle is. It's not a line of police in front of you, being kettled entails being surrounded by police



It has the same effect, they can't leave without abandoning a car in a dangerous position.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It has the same effect, they can't leave without abandoning a car in a dangerous position.


It is a facile comparison


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm an ordinary Londoner, and I don't feel they're setting themselves directly (or even indirectly) in conflict with me, in the least.
> 
> But I suppose unlike some posters on this thread, I don't unthinkingly swallow the position of the Daily Star on every current issue.


I suspect you are in a minority but I could be wrong. The reaction of drivers and passers by would suggest you might be tho.

I’m not unsympathetic to the cause. I just think what absolute fucking whoppers these older middle class people are making of themselves, cos they bring the issue to the attention of people whilst simultaneously alienating them from it.

Making people late for work, kids late for school, raising peoples blood pressure, putting lives at risk… these things make people affected think your a cunt. I mean yeh sure, they may also become aware that home insulation could form part of the solution to climate change. But the risk is they then think, but only cunts think that.

I mean correct me if I’m wrong. That would just seem the reasoning to me.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> Conflict isn’t restricted to direct contact. These activists are setting themselves directly in conflict with ordinary Londoners. Unsurprisingly, they’re pissed off. That’s their intention isn’t it. What do I need to get a grip on?


the fact that there _needs to be disruption _to the "ordinary"


----------



## andysays (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> I suspect you are in a minority but I could be wrong. The reaction of drivers and passers by would suggest you might be tho.
> 
> I’m not unsympathetic to the cause. I just think what absolute fucking whoppers these older middle class people are making of themselves, cos they bring the issue to the attention of people whilst simultaneously alienating them from it.
> 
> ...


Again, I think the number of people who have been seriously affected has been significantly exaggerated, as has the level of genuine public animosity. No one I know has been affected by their actions, even in passing, and perhaps more significantly, no one I know has ever made a  comment like "have you seen what these Insulate Britain twats have been up to now?"

I don't agree with their tactics, and some of them may well be unpleasant middle class twats, but I also don't think they deserve the level of vitriol they're getting from sections of the press and from some posters here.

ETA And ordinary people in London are made late for work, kids late for school, peoples blood pressure raised, lives put at risk everyday, by the sheer amount of traffic on the roads.

A few extra roads being blocked occasionally is barely noticeable.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm an ordinary Londoner, and I don't feel they're setting themselves directly (or even indirectly) in conflict with me, in the least.



That's because you haven't been trapped by them. Imagine they had glued themselves to your front door, trapping you inside just before you had to leave for a hospital appointment. That's the actual affect they are having on people. And I'm not talking about consequential delay due to traffic jams - it's the placing of themselves in front of specific individuals and telling those individuals that they don't care about their lives that is literally "setting themselves up directly in conflict with the public".


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> I don't agree with their tactics, and some of them may well be unpleasant middle class twats, but I also don't think they deserve the level of vitriol they're getting from sections of the press *and from some posters here.*



Hang on, they knew what they were doing, the injunctions were a warning, they knew they could end-up in prison, but they were happy with that, so excuse me if I laugh at the twats.


----------



## andysays (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That's because you haven't been trapped by them. *Imagine they had glued themselves to your front door, trapping you inside just before you had to leave for a hospital appointment*. That's the actual affect they are having on people. And I'm not talking about consequential delay due to traffic jams - it's the placing of themselves in front of specific individuals and telling those individuals that they don't care about their lives that is literally "setting themselves up directly in conflict with the public".


Maybe I missed this story, but can you please link to where anyone from Insulate Britain has glued themselves to someone's front door, trapping them inside just before they had to leave for a hospital appointment, unless it's just a figment of your over-active imagination.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That's because you haven't been trapped by them. Imagine they had glued themselves to your front door, trapping you inside just before you had to leave for a hospital appointment. That's the actual affect they are having on people. And I'm not talking about consequential delay due to traffic jams - it's the placing of themselves in front of specific individuals and telling those individuals that they don't care about their lives that is literally "setting themselves up directly in conflict with the public".


You're being somewhat overblown and excitable here. Has Roger hallam forced you to stay at home?


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

Of course they didn't, but presumably when they blocked a road they will have made someone really working class really late for something really important and therefore they're all cunts


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> Maybe I missed this story, but can you please link to where anyone from Insulate Britain has glued themselves to someone's front door, trapping them inside just before they had to leave for a hospital appointment, unless it's just a figment of your over-active imagination.



I asked you to imagine it, because you seem to have some trouble putting yourself in the shoes of those drivers who have had someone run into the road and glue themselves in front of their car, trapping them there for hours. Perhaps you're just incapable of empathy.


----------



## Flavour (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I asked you to imagine it, because you seem to have some trouble putting yourself in the shoes of those drivers who have had someone run into the road and glue themselves in front of their car, trapping them there for hours. Perhaps you're just incapable of empathy.


I tend not to get that angry if my private car journey is disrupted by protest marches or strike activity as long as they're not no-vax or fash , personally. I understand that people need to protest


----------



## andysays (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I asked you to imagine it, because you seem to have some trouble putting yourself in the shoes of those drivers who have had someone run into the road and glue themselves in front of their car, trapping them there for hours. Perhaps you're just incapable of empathy.


I can certainly imagine it, and I can even have empathy for someone in the imaginary situation where it happened, but it has nothing with the subject under discussion, it's just yet more of your nonsense.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

Flavour said:


> I tend not to get that angry if my private car journey is disrupted by protest marches or strike activity as long as they're not no-vax or fash , personally. I understand that people need to protest



Incidental disruption by crowds, perhaps because you took a wrong turn or didn't plan ahead, is an entirely different thing.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> I can certainly imagine it, and I can even have empathy for someone in the imaginary situation where it happened, but it has nothing with the subject under discussion, it's just yet more of your nonsense.



You obvsouly don't get it, because you compared being trapped for hours by someone gluing themselves in front of you to the delays caused by general traffic jams in London.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 18, 2021)

andysays said:


> I'm an ordinary Londoner, and I don't feel they're setting themselves directly (or even indirectly) in conflict with me, in the least.
> 
> But I suppose unlike some posters on this thread, I don't unthinkingly swallow the position of the Daily Star on every current issue.



But why are they blocking _your_ path? Making you late for whatever isn't going to empower you in any meaningful way, and if the government can't be bothered to mount a proper response to climate change, then they're not going to give a shit about you being inconvenienced. I can easily understand why someone might get pissed off with such protests, because they don't seem to be actually capable of anything other than making peoples' lives more difficult.

Like, I can agree with the need for more radical action, and still think that that getting in the way of ordinary people is a stupid and counter-productive thing to do.


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

NoXion said:


> But why are they blocking _your_ path? Making you late for whatever isn't going to empower you in any meaningful way, and if the government can't be bothered to mount a proper response to climate change, then they're not going to give a shit about you being inconvenienced. I can easily understand why someone might get pissed off with such protests, because they don't seem to be actually capable of anything other than making peoples' lives more difficult.
> 
> Like, I can agree with the need for more radical action, and still think that that getting in the way of ordinary people is a stupid and counter-productive thing to do.


Absolutely. I think many more people would support them supergluing themselves to Parliament or the Shell offices or LA housing offices. But to do it blocking ordinary people going about their lives is just fucking dense. And arrogant.

As to whether people are or aren’t calling them twats, I have no doubt they aren’t in your circles andysays


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

Wonder if these angry drivers kick off as much every other day of the year when thousands of other twats in cars stop them from getting anywhere.

The endless, 'ere, wotchoo doin in frant of mah motah you facking slag' accents in the videos make it a lot easier for me to not give a shit about the angry motorists as well.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

cupid_stunt said:


> Hang on, they knew what they were doing, the injunctions were a warning, they knew they could end-up in prison, but they were happy with that, so excuse me if I laugh at the twats.



Injunctions aren't a 'warning' they're a scam used to criminalise stuff that isn't actually a crime.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The endless, 'ere, wotchoo doin in frant of mah motah you facking slag' accents in the videos make it a lot easier for me to not give a shit about the angry motorists as well.



I haven’t watched EastEnders in ages.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Wonder if these angry drivers kick off as much every other day of the year when thousands of other twats in cars stop them from getting anywhere.



No because that doesn't happen.



SpookyFrank said:


> The endless, 'ere, wotchoo doin in frant of mah motah you facking slag' accents in the videos make it a lot easier for me to not give a shit about the angry motorists as well.



Yeah, working class accents are so annoying.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> No because that doesn't happen.



Traffic jams don't happen?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yeah, working class accents are so annoying.



Honest working class lads in their 60 grand range rovers.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Traffic jams don't happen?



Comparing those to the protesters is like comparing rain to someone pouring piss on your head.


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Injunctions aren't a 'warning' they're a scam used to criminalise stuff that isn't actually a crime.



For someone that claims to be a trained pilot, you do a great impression of a space cadet.


----------



## ddraig (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Comparing those to the protesters is like comparing rain to someone pouring piss on your head.


Get a grip


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Comparing those to the protesters is like comparing rain to someone pouring piss on your head.



Yeah, because getting piss poured on your head is an unpleasant inconvenience but rain kills thousands of people every year.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah, because getting piss poured on your head is an unpleasant inconvenience but rain kills thousands of people every year.



(((All those people dying in stationary cars)))


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> (((All those people dying because of pollution from stationary cars)))



Cfy


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Cfy



Fortunately Insulate Britain can help fix thay by gluing themselves to the road


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Honest working class lads in their 60 grand range rovers.



You’d think the bloody oiks would at least have the decency to be poor, wouldn’t you?  
Awful, awful people.  

Bet their tellies are absolutely humongous…


----------



## Storm Fox (Nov 18, 2021)

I cannot see how IB can achieve their goals with the method of protest they are using. They need to find a method that will engage more people and then this will put pressure on the government. At the moment they are either being ignored by most people or turning people off of a cause most people agree with, but with all that is going on people need to be encouraged to make it a priority. 

If IB were protesting against something then the tactics being used would have an effect. A small group of can shutdown a company by blocking access to their building or blocking new roads. 
But protesting for something needs different tactics; I don't know what,but they need to encourage people.


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> The endless, 'ere, wotchoo doin in frant of mah motah you facking slag' accents in the videos make it a lot easier for me to not give a shit about the angry motorists as well.


True colours


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> You’d think the bloody oiks would at least have the decency to be poor, wouldn’t you?
> Awful, awful people.
> 
> Bet their tellies are absolutely humongous…



One minute I hate people for being working class the next I hate them for being rich. And no, you can't be both.

What I actually hate is people who phyiscally attack others because they've been mildly inconvenienced. And yes the entitled, usually male, tone of voice that goes with it sounds jarring to my ears. That's not so much an aesthetic response as an emotional one.


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> One minute I hate people for being working class the next I hate them for being rich. And no, you can't be both.
> 
> What I actually hate is people who phyiscally attack others because they've been mildly inconvenienced.


Mildly inconvenienced is missing a bus, waiting for someone to get ready for five minutes, a 20 min delay because the train driver is changing over, road works adding a traffic jam to your route. Not being locked into the M25 for hours on end.

It’s this utter moral superiority that makes people hate the fucking left. Your attitude is literally ‘everyone else is so stupid they need to have their awareness raised by people like me, and if they get mad they just don’t realise it’s for their own good’. Just fuck off ya cunts 🖕🏻


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

Left and right don't enter into it. If you use violence to avenge non-violent acts, you're a danger to society.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

Edie said:


> Mildly inconvenienced is missing a bus, waiting for someone to get ready for five minutes, a 20 min delay because the train driver is changing over, road works adding a traffic jam to your route. Not being locked into the M25 for hours on end.
> 
> It’s this utter moral superiority that makes people hate the fucking left. Your attitude is literally ‘everyone else is so stupid they need to have their awareness raised by people like me, and if they get mad they just don’t realise it’s for their own good’. Just fuck off ya cunts 🖕🏻


Not sure ib or xr actually espouse socialism

Anyway all of this is a very mild inconvenience in comparison to 2⁰ of global warming


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> Yeah, because getting piss poured on your head is an unpleasant inconvenience but rain kills thousands of people every year.



You’d tolerate the piss-pourer and shake your fist at the clouds no doubt.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

I don't even like IB's tactics. I think getting yourself sent to prison on purpose is a very silly thing to do and shows a pretty poor understanding of what prison is actually like. But their victims? Meh. One way or another this toxic culture of private vehicles will end, if only because Audis don't start underwater. If a few people need some practice coming to terms with that concept without embarassing their species, no bad thing.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure ib or xr actually espouse socialism



No but congealing everything you don't like under the heading of 'the left' is a convenient substitute for having anything at all with which to defend the actions of the right.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> No but congealing everything you don't like under the heading of 'the left' is a convenient substitute for having anything at all with which to defend the actions of the right.


Haven't the biggest deniers of climate change been on the right?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 18, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Not sure ib or xr actually espouse socialism



A few XR peeps I know seem to be moving well away from the world of “market-based solutions”.
On the whole, the movement pretends to be apolitical.


----------



## Peter Painter (Nov 18, 2021)

I support Insulate Britain's cause. How could any reasonable person not support it?

But their tactics are naive and counter-productive. Their actions aren't gaining them any new supporters. Worse than that, they're alienating potential supporters by disrupting the lives of random members of the public. 

Their objective seems to be some nebulous notion of putting pressure on the government. But instead of achieving their aim they've simply played into their target's hands.

I'd like to believe that the majority of people in this country wouldn't want to see non-violent protesters sent to prison. But I've got a horrible feeling that too many people will either be pleased to hear that the IB protesters have been jailed, or at least will find it amusing.

None of it is amusing, least of all the bigger picture.

i've just seen this, not sure if it's been mentioned already or not:









						Insulate Britain activist starts hunger strike in jail
					

‘Our demand will save lives - I must take the fight wherever I go,’ says scientist




					www.independent.co.uk


----------



## T & P (Nov 18, 2021)

Even if one doesn’t give a shit about the plight of any drivers caught up by their protests, I can’t imagine many people agreeing with them blocking emergency vehicles, or a crying woman following her dying mother in the ambulance in front begging them to let her through. All in front of TV crews filming the incident for good measure, which shows a remarkable level of naivety.

And then telling those people, or the media in subsequent interviews ‘you’ll probably thank us for this in a few years anyway’, or that they see nothing wrong with delaying emergency vehicles and they’ll gladly do it again at the next protest, is next level stupid and pretty much guarantees you’re going to lose the public no matter how worthy your cause might be. Which is exactly what has happened here.


----------



## Edie (Nov 18, 2021)

T & P said:


> Even if one doesn’t give a shit about the plight of any drivers caught up by their protests, I can’t imagine many people agreeing with them blocking emergency vehicles, or a crying woman following her dying mother in the ambulance in front begging them to let her through. All in front of TV crews filming the incident for good measure, which shows a remarkable level of naivety.
> 
> And then telling those people, or the media in subsequent interviews ‘you’ll probably thank us for this in a few years anyway’, or that they see nothing wrong with delaying emergency vehicles and they’ll gladly do it again at the next protest, is next level stupid and pretty much guarantees you’re going to lose the public no matter how worthy your cause might be. Which is exactly what has happened here.


It’s just… weird isn’t it. I mean how’d you get to the point where you think it’s a good idea


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> A few XR peeps I know seem to be moving well away from the world of “market-based solutions”.
> On the whole, the movement pretends to be apolitical.


That's a curious post. It is a political campaign in that it desires an alteration in government policy. So it clearly isn't apolitical.


----------



## l'Otters (Nov 18, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Can you remember the U75 outcry about the oh-so-inequitable contempt of court laws that he fell foul of?


If what people are generally saying is the contempt of court concept is a load of shite  why would they bother commenting on that detail? If you view the entire justice system as totally fucked there’s nothing to say. Stopped clock is right twice a day. 
Being pleased that Yaxley Lennon came unstuck does not equal agreeing with the particulars of the laws which got him.


----------



## Spymaster (Nov 19, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> If what people are generally saying is the contempt of court concept is a load of shite  why would they bother commenting on that detail? If you view the entire justice system as totally fucked there’s nothing to say. Stopped clock is right twice a day.
> Being pleased that Yaxley Lennon came unstuck does not equal agreeing with the particulars of the laws which got him.


Place marker


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a curious post. It is a political campaign in that it desires an alteration in government policy. So it clearly isn't apolitical.



It’s really not curious at all.  38 degrees also used to pretend to be apolotical.  It’s nonsense, but it’s not uncommon.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> It’s really not curious at all.  38 degrees also used to pretend to be apolotical.  It’s nonsense, but it’s not uncommon.


Yes, nonsense is the word I sought because you've not said anything to change mu mind and view xr or ib as socialist


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2021)

I'd have expected you to have a better political analysis than having a go at people's accents SpookyFrank, not to mention your spurious rich/working class confusion and lack of clarity.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, nonsense is the word I sought because you've not said anything to change mu mind and view xr or ib as socialist



Are citizen's assemblies socialist? Because that's what XR seem to be about. Replacing some functions of an elected parliament with a body of randoms fed curated evidence from experts and cajoled by professional facilitators seems like some sort dystopian veiled technocracy to me.


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2021)

Something written here about IB Devastate to insulate?


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> That's a curious post. It is a political campaign in that it desires an alteration in government policy. So it clearly isn't apolitical.



I've had this argument/discussion with a bunch of XR people who consider politics to solely mean parliamentary party politics. No idea where they got that from, maybe some training they do or book they all read, but was surprised it was so commonplace.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've had this argument/discussion with a bunch of XR people who consider politics to solely mean parliamentary politics. No idea where they got that from, maybe some training they do or book they all read, but was surprised it was so commonplace.



Exactly the same as what 38 degrees used to say.  I expect there’s a PR person in there somewhere.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Are citizen's assemblies socialist? Because that's what XR seem to be about. Replacing some functions of an elected parliament with a body of randoms fed curated evidence from experts and cajoled by professional facilitators seems like some sort dystopian veiled technocracy to me.



Yeah, they’re not keen on this reading of things.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I've had this argument/discussion with a bunch of XR people who consider politics to solely mean parliamentary politics. No idea where they got that from, maybe some training they do or book they all read, but was surprised it was so commonplace.


Yeh well obvs if they're trying to change government policy then on those terms they are a political organisation


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yes, nonsense is the word I sought because you've not said anything to change mu mind and view xr or ib as socialist



What gave you the impression I was trying to do that?


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Yeh well obvs if they're trying to change government policy then on those terms they are a political organisation



I missed the 'party' bit in my earlier post have edited now, sorry, yeah it is obvious, but to lots of them politics=parliamentary party politics.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> What gave you the impression I was trying to do that?


Just your post


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I missed the 'party' bit in my earlier post have edited now, sorry, yeah it is obvious, but to lots of them politics=parliamentary party politics.


Yeh but surely even for xr trying to influence a parliamentary political party must in itself be a political act, before the field is widened under the skunk anansie axiom


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Just your post


If you mean #613 you'll see I was talking about individuals I know, not the organisation (maybe the word "movement" was ambiguous).
The organisation is pretty fudgy on the matter in an attempt to not alienate people.

Also, the way it is organised is pretty weird.  The leadership seems pretty unreachable to the rank and file.  A good deal of "tyranny of structurelessness" going on, too.


----------



## l'Otters (Nov 19, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Place marker


?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 19, 2021)

l'Otters said:


> ?


he's going to eat his dinner off that post


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> I'd have expected you to have a better political analysis than having a go at people's accents SpookyFrank, not to mention your spurious rich/working class confusion and lack of clarity.



Oh well.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 19, 2021)

I've just read IB's open letter to the British public

"You have a choice. To act, to come and join us help change the tide of history, or to be a bystander and be complicit in enabling genocide."

That's their egotistical zealotry on full display. You're either with them or against them. Fail to glue yourself to a motorway to get the government to use general taxation to stuff everyone's home with Kingspan by 2025 or you're a genocide enabler.


----------



## Teaboy (Nov 19, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> That's their egotistical zealotry on full display. You're either with them or against them. Fail to glue yourself to a motorway to get the government to use general taxation to stuff everyone's home with Kingspan by 2025 or you're a genocide enabler.



Hopefully not everyone's home what with Grenfell still being pretty fresh in our minds.


----------



## LDC (Nov 19, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> "You have a choice. To act, to come and join us help change the tide of history, or to be a bystander and be complicit in enabling genocide."



That really is quite bonkers stuff to come out with on a number of levels.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

LynnDoyleCooper said:


> That really is quite bonkers stuff to come out with on a number of levels.



Red pill or blue pill, Neo.  
The Sentinels are on the way...


----------



## Chilli.s (Nov 19, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I've just read IB's open letter to the British public
> 
> "You have a choice. To act, to come and join us help change the tide of history, or to be a bystander and be complicit in enabling genocide."
> 
> That's their egotistical zealotry on full display. You're either with them or against them. Fail to glue yourself to a motorway to get the government to use general taxation to stuff everyone's home with Kingspan by 2025 or you're a genocide enabler.


yeah it's stupid

There's plenty of places to glue yourself without inconveniencing the public or emergency services. I would suggest tourist attractions, that railing fence at downing st or buck house

they have a good idea that they are spoiling


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 19, 2021)

When it comes to the angry motorists, speak with an emergency worker and they'll tell you it's nothing new, as they cut the dead and dying from cars on motorways, the one lane left open is filled with savagely angry abuse from those who's life has been ruined by missing Eastenders and so on.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> When it comes to the angry motorists, speak with an emergency worker and they'll tell you it's nothing new, as they cut the dead and dying from cars on motorways, the one lane left open is filled with savagely angry abuse from those who's life has been ruined by missing Eastenders and so on.



That is bizarre.  You'd think they could have someone record these people and their reg numbers and pass their details to the police - have them do something useful.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> That is bizarre.  You'd think they could have someone record these people and their reg numbers and pass their details to the police - have them do something useful.




It's not (much of) a crime to shout 'wanker!' at someone, and when there's literally 100's doing the same thing....


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> It's not (much of) a crime to shout 'wanker!' at someone, and when there's literally 100's doing the same thing....



I think you could argue easily enough that shouting insults at the emergency services while they may be trying to save someone's life qualifies as obstructing the actions of the emergency services.  Max £10,000 fine.  Enough to make even the relatively wealthy consider the utility of not being a cunt.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> I think you could argue easily enough that shouting insults at the emergency services while they may be trying to save someone's life qualifies as obstructing the actions of the emergency services.  Max £10,000 fine.  Enough to make even the relatively wealthy consider the utility of not being a cunt.




I guess the emergency workers are busy with other shit...


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I guess the emergency workers are busy with other shit...



Sorry, thought it was clear I didn't mean an emergency worker.
Police could just find a PCSO who knows how to set up a reasonably covert camera.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> Absolutely. I think many more people would support them supergluing themselves to Parliament or the Shell offices or LA housing offices. But to do it blocking ordinary people going about their lives is just fucking dense. And arrogant.





Chilli.s said:


> they have a good idea that they are spoiling



I'm starting to seriously consider the possibility that XR and its offshoots are secretly sponsored by the fossil fuels industry, in order to make climate change activists look like a bunch of bull-headed incompetents. Because the other explanation is that they really _are_ that daft.



platinumsage said:


> I've just read IB's open letter to the British public
> 
> "You have a choice. To act, to come and join us help change the tide of history, or to be a bystander and be complicit in enabling genocide."
> 
> That's their egotistical zealotry on full display. You're either with them or against them. Fail to glue yourself to a motorway to get the government to use general taxation to stuff everyone's home with Kingspan by 2025 or you're a genocide enabler.



The part of that message which actually addresses the general public is just absolutely fucking awful. A lot of people are feeling powerless in the face of government foot-dragging and corporate green-washing when it comes to tackling climate change. So how the fuck does saying, in effect, "join us or be complicit in genocide" win anyone like that over?


----------



## AmateurAgitator (Nov 19, 2021)

Edie said:


> Absolutely. I think many more people would support them supergluing themselves to Parliament or the Shell offices or LA housing offices. But to do it blocking ordinary people going about their lives is just fucking dense. And arrogant.


This


----------



## 8ball (Nov 19, 2021)

It’s a bit like saying “accede to my demands or the puppy gets it” to someone who really doesn’t like puppies.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 20, 2021)

my take on  people who have disrupted my life as a car driver in the last 6 months


how many daft dick heads  who were bring roads to a standtill because the cars fuild tank was just slight below half way
parking in queues, double parking, fighting and forcing traffic to slow down around every petrol station in the country


muppets with their hearts in the right place

vs

muppets looking out for themselves


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2021)

Some of your posts are like crazy poems.


----------



## Ax^ (Nov 20, 2021)

.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 20, 2021)

Wonder how people feel about this protest RAC demands retailers cut petrol by 6p as filling family car hits £80


----------



## 8ball (Nov 20, 2021)

Good show!

Road deaths would be negligible if 5mph was the maximum speed anyone could go.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Nov 20, 2021)

If only there was some kind of tax rebated diesel available for agricultural uses. 

They could dye it red or something.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Nov 20, 2021)

Spymaster said:


> Well that worked didn't it?
> 
> Ballsy as fuck, my arse!
> 
> ...






> > 100 blocking Lambeth Bridge today.



Melting away…


----------



## A380 (Nov 20, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> If only there was some kind of tax rebated diesel available for agricultural uses.
> 
> They could dye it red or something.


It's probably going for a lot of users, but not farmers.





__





						Reform of red diesel and other rebated fuels entitlement
					






					www.gov.uk


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2021)

A380 said:


> It's probably going for a lot of users, but not farmers.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I am surprised then you aren't proffering a view on the protest I mention in 654


----------



## A380 (Nov 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> I am surprised then you aren't proffering a view on the protest I mention in 654


I delight in the sparkle of surprising people.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Wonder how people feel about this protest RAC demands retailers cut petrol by 6p as filling family car hits £80
> 
> View attachment 297541



He wants the petrol stations to reduce their profits? Haha, good luck. He'll need it.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I've just read IB's open letter to the British public
> 
> "You have a choice. To act, to come and join us help change the tide of history, or to be a bystander and be complicit in enabling genocide."
> 
> That's their egotistical zealotry on full display. You're either with them or against them. Fail to glue yourself to a motorway to get the government to use general taxation to stuff everyone's home with Kingspan by 2025 or you're a genocide enabler.


The letter is OK until the last section you quote.

I'm starting to find this kind of attitude common in Green groups. Not just Insulate Britain. I'm finding it in my area. It shows a contempt for ordinary people. The either 100per cent for them or your against them is common view from those who hold Green ideas.

So someone like me who is sympthatic it puts me off. I've found this kind of attitude personally aggravating.


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2021)

Double post


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2021)

Double post


----------



## mojo pixy (Nov 21, 2021)

It's a bit like anti fascists isn't it. I'm pretty opposed to fascism myself but when thugs start blocking the road and shouting "they will not pass!" and getting in everyone's way it just pisses me off, I mean who do they think they are eh.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It's a bit like anti fascists isn't it. I'm pretty opposed to fascism myself but when thugs start blocking the road and shouting "they will not pass!" it just pisses me off, I mean who do they think they are eh.



Anti-fascists tend to block fascist marches, which is directly achieving the literal aim of their protest. IB want the government to insulate homes, blocking roads has nothing whatsoever to do with this. If anti-fascists started blcoking randoms on the M25 everyone would think WTF are they doing?


----------



## NoXion (Nov 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It's a bit like anti fascists isn't it. I'm pretty opposed to fascism myself but when thugs start blocking the road and shouting "they will not pass!" and getting in everyone's way it just pisses me off, I mean who do they think they are eh.



Pretty sure that anti-fascists stick to kicking fascists' heads in, as far as I know they don't go out of their way to inconvenience non-fascists.


----------



## A380 (Nov 21, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> It's a bit like anti fascists isn't it. I'm pretty opposed to fascism myself but when thugs start blocking the road and shouting "they will not pass!" and getting in everyone's way it just pisses me off, I mean who do they think they are eh.


At least they made their boilers run on a timer…


----------



## Gramsci (Nov 21, 2021)

Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think any Anti fascist groups hector the public to join up or they are complicit in genocide if they don't.

I personally don't have a problem with Insulate Britain blocking roads.

I do have a problem with their letter to the British public as I've already posted.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Pretty sure that anti-fascists stick to kicking fascists' heads in, as far as I know they don't go out of their way to inconvenience non-fascists.


lots of non-fascists were inconvenienced the day of waterloo as the station was shut. as was charing cross. on the poll tax riot i encountered an auld posh couple done up to the nines (man with crest on blazer etc) who asked what was going on. i said 'it's a riot' to which the woman replied 'they can't do that, they'll make us late for the opera'.

sadly people will be inconvenienced by lots of things.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> lots of non-fascists were inconvenienced the day of waterloo as the station was shut. as was charing cross. on the poll tax riot i encountered an auld posh couple done up to the nines (man with crest on blazer etc) who asked what was going on. i said 'it's a riot' to which the woman replied 'they can't do that, they'll make us late for the opera'.
> 
> sadly people will be inconvenienced by lots of things.



You should have said “I’ll just pop over and ask them if they can tone it down for a bit..”


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 21, 2021)

8ball said:


> You should have said “I’ll just pop over and ask them if they can tone it down for a bit..”


it's always the way, you think of the perfect riposte 31 years 8 months after the event


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 21, 2021)

At least the poll tax rioters didn't base their protest solely on stopping people getting into opera houses. That would have been about as meaningful as IB blocking roundabouts.


----------



## ska invita (Nov 21, 2021)

is this true? I thought their demands went well beyond any Tory manifesto pledges?


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2021)

ska invita said:


> is this true? I thought their demands went well beyond any Tory manifesto pledges?




I don’t expect much sense from them.  I had a post pop up on Fb earlier where they were described as ‘political prisoners’.


----------



## 8ball (Nov 21, 2021)

Dp


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> lots of non-fascists were inconvenienced the day of waterloo as the station was shut. as was charing cross. on the poll tax riot i encountered an auld posh couple done up to the nines (man with crest on blazer etc) who asked what was going on. i said 'it's a riot' to which the woman replied 'they can't do that, they'll make us late for the opera'.
> 
> sadly people will be inconvenienced by lots of things.



Poor comparison, unless the anti-fascists told the old couple to join them or be complicit in genocide.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Poor comparison, unless the anti-fascists told the old couple to join them or be complicit in genocide.


the anti-fascists famously at waterloo on 12.9.92, the poll tax riot 31.3.90


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the anti-fascists famously at waterloo on 12.9.92, the poll tax riot 31.3.90



Well I was barely older than 5 years when any of that happened, so forgive me for mixing up the dates during a period in which I was mostly dribbling. But my point still stands, I don't believe that those involved threw out carelessly-written open letters accusing the general public of complicity in genocide. Having to take a small detour around a fashie getting their skull boxed in is going to be received much differently than encountering someone whose actual short-term goal involves stopping you from wherever you're going.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Well I was barely older than 5 years when any of that happened, so forgive me for mixing up the dates during a period in which I was mostly dribbling. But my point still stands, I don't believe that those involved threw out carelessly-written open letters accusing the general public of complicity in genocide. Having to take a small detour around a fashie getting their skull boxed in is going to be received much differently than encountering someone whose actual short-term goal involves stopping you from wherever you're going.


the post i addressed said nothing about letters, so i wasn't dealing with that at all. if you want your point about this letter to stand take it up with someone who has taken issue with it.


----------



## platinumsage (Nov 22, 2021)

I see they're invoking AIDS victims now. Also doubling down on the genocide enabling, and the government is engaging in "a crime against humanity" by failing to summarily stuff everyone's home with sheets of Kingspan.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> the post i addressed said nothing about letters, so i wasn't dealing with that at all. if you want your point about this letter to stand take it up with someone who has taken issue with it.



So you are walking back your defence of the silly "anti-fascists also inconvenienced people so therefore IB are justified" nonsense I take it?


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So you are walking back your defence of the silly "anti-fascists also inconvenienced people so therefore IB are justified" nonsense I take it?


i said nothing of the sort. disappointing to see you invent quotes.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> i said nothing of the sort. disappointing to see you invent quotes.



It's called a paraphrase, I use quote boxes for actual quotes. But you know this, of course.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

NoXion said:


> It's called a paraphrase, I use quote boxes for actual quotes. But you know this, of course.


it's an invented paraphrase in that it doesn't reflect anything i have said. it is a confection of your devising rather than a reflection of my writing. to  be plain, it is a lie.


----------



## NoXion (Nov 22, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> it's an invented paraphrase in that it doesn't reflect anything i have said. it is a confection of your devising rather than a reflection of my writing. to  be plain, it is a lie.



It's not anything I've attributed to you, in fact. If you read more carefully you'll see that I'm criticising you for defending it, not for saying it. Since you're not stupid, I have to wonder whether _you_ are now lying.


----------



## LDC (Nov 22, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I see they're invoking AIDS victims now. Also doubling down on the genocide enabling, and the government is engaging in "a crime against humanity" by failing to summarily stuff everyone's home with sheets of Kingspan.



Just looked about and I assume this is what you mean Insulate Britain response to the solidarity rally | Insulate Britain and for those that can't be arsed to look, its this bit at the end, "We don’t know if we will win, but we can no longer afford to lose. As the great Larry Kramer, founder of ACT UP, screamed, as gay men died in their thousands from Aids: “get in the streets or you’re gonna fucking die."

Their social media accounts (and XR's) are a proper torrent of abuse and dickhead comments aimed at them, predictable, but quite depressing tbh.


----------



## Pickman's model (Nov 22, 2021)

NoXion said:


> So you are walking back your defence of the silly "anti-fascists also inconvenienced people so therefore IB are justified" nonsense I take it?





NoXion said:


> It's not anything I've attributed to you, in fact. If you read more carefully you'll see that I'm criticising you for defending it, not for saying it. Since you're not stupid, I have to wonder whether _you_ are now lying.


if you're paraphrasing - summarising - what people say why not summarise what people have said instead of inventing bits? just a thought like. i'm not defending the paraphrase in 682 because i didn't express those sentiments


----------



## cupid_stunt (Nov 27, 2021)

Another 9 have been summoned to appear at the High Court on 14th Dec.

17 still waiting on being summoned.









						Nine more Insulate Britain activists face jail
					






					morningstaronline.co.uk


----------



## teqniq (Nov 29, 2021)

Hunger strike eh? 

HMP BRONZEFIELD MOVE EMMA SMART TO HOSPITAL WING AS HUNGER STRIKE ENTERS 13TH DAY


----------



## ska invita (Dec 17, 2021)

Woman who 'nudged' Insulate Britain protester with 4X4 charged with assault
					

A mum who allegedly nudged an Insulate Britain protester with her Range Rover to try and move her out of the road in Essex has been charged with assault.




					www.lbc.co.uk


----------



## 8ball (Dec 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Woman who 'nudged' Insulate Britain protester with 4X4 charged with assault
> 
> 
> A mum who allegedly nudged an Insulate Britain protester with her Range Rover to try and move her out of the road in Essex has been charged with assault.
> ...



And yet so many posters on here are fine with ‘nudging’ when it comes to vaccinations.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Dec 18, 2021)

8ball said:


> And yet so many posters on here are fine with ‘nudging’ when it comes to vaccinations.



This is some weak bullshit as I suspect you know.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 18, 2021)




----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> Woman who 'nudged' Insulate Britain protester with 4X4 charged with assault
> 
> 
> A mum who allegedly nudged an Insulate Britain protester with her Range Rover to try and move her out of the road in Essex has been charged with assault.
> ...


Why label her as “a mum”.  That’s some bullshit attempt to lead a narrative right there.


----------



## ska invita (Dec 18, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Why label her as “a mum”.  That’s some bullshit attempt to lead a narrative right there.


true, though there was the whole "going to school" aspect + her kid gave it some heckling too iirc


----------



## kabbes (Dec 18, 2021)

ska invita said:


> true, though there was the whole "going to school" aspect + her kid gave it some heckling too iirc


They open their report with “A mum who allegedly…”. The moment they start with “a mum”, they are calling on popular discursive resources of ”mums” (not even just  “mothers”!).  It has taken-for-granted associations that are being made salient by bringing up her mum-ness — caring, nurturing, helpful, beloved — creating a context within which  all what follows will be read.  How can a “mum” be guilty of assault? It goes contrary to what we associate with being a mum.  That’s some powerful cognitive dissonance right there.  And then we have “nudge”…

Imagine the difference if they said, for example, “A woman driving a car that is over 50% heavier than the average hatchback is accused of using the £50,000+ vehicle to assault a pedestrian.  The woman is alleged to have committed this assault in front of her child.”


----------



## 8ball (Dec 18, 2021)

SpookyFrank said:


> This is some weak bullshit as I suspect you know.



Premium content as always.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 18, 2021)

Frail lady lying in road battered by 2-tonne-machine-wielding yob.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 18, 2021)

How about "Stupid idiot fucks about in the road and gets assaulted by another stupid idiot"?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> How about "Stupid idiot fucks about in the road and gets assaulted by another stupid idiot"?


And we're into the narrative of some protestors can block the road and good luck to them and other protestors who do the same are beyond the pale.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And we're into the narrative of some protestors can block the road and good luck to them and other protestors who do the same are beyond the pale.



I’m probably not properly awake yet, but who are the first group?


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And we're into the narrative of some protestors can block the road and good luck to them and other protestors who do the same are beyond the pale.



Obviously. No one in these days of culture wars supports the right of people to protest if they disagree with the protestors' aims. What an absurd twentieth century idea!


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

8ball said:


> I’m probably not properly awake yet, but who are the first group?


Youre right, you're not properly awake yet. So many groups have blocked roads and been greatly supported by people here. I daresay a great minority of people here, perhaps even a majority, have blocked roads while part of an organisation or just on a demonstration (intending to block roads not simply as part of an a to b march). And I can think of several occasions cars have pushed through blockages like that at demonstrations I've been on.


----------



## 8ball (Dec 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> Youre right, you're not properly awake yet. So many groups have blocked roads and been greatly supported by people here. I daresay a great minority of people here, perhaps even a majority, have blocked roads while part of an organisation or just on a demonstration (intending to block roads not simply as part of an a to b march). And I can think of several occasions cars have pushed through blockages like that at demonstrations I've been on.



Ok, wasn’t sure whether you were talking about those protests mostly from some time back, or talking about anti-vaxxers, who have caused disruption much more recently.

Getting out of bed and getting some caffeine in system once house warms up a bit…


----------



## NoXion (Dec 19, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> And we're into the narrative of some protestors can block the road and good luck to them and other protestors who do the same are beyond the pale.



Who said anything about what people can or can't do? I'm not calling for new laws, nor even the stricter enforcement of current ones. I'm calling them stupid idiots. Which is what someone is if they think they can push for action on climate change by blocking ordinary commuters going about their business. I'm sure the fossil fuels industry is quaking in their boots right? Actually I think slower traffic burns more fuel, so if anything what happened was a win as far as they are concerned.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Who said anything about what people can or can't do?


no one. it's a straw man. excellent stuff.


----------



## Storm Fox (Dec 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Who said anything about what people can or can't do? I'm not calling for new laws, nor even the stricter enforcement of current ones. I'm calling them stupid idiots. Which is what someone is if they think they can push for action on climate change by blocking ordinary commuters going about their business. I'm sure the fossil fuels industry is quaking in their boots right? Actually I think slower traffic burns more fuel, so if anything what happened was a win as far as they are concerned.


This. Their form of protest doesn't sense.
Protest against car use:  Block roads or refineries
Protest against building a road: Disrupt the construction
Protest against fossil fuel use: Block power stations.
Protest for increased insulation: Block roads and annoy people they need support from.

One these things is not the like the others.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 19, 2021)

I think anyone including these people have the right to protest about anything any want. What no-one has is the right to expect eveyone else to support their cause and not react angrily when their lives are disrupted for a cause they don't support.


----------



## NoXion (Dec 19, 2021)

Polling shows that three quarters of British adults worry about climate change. Two-thirds of US adults think the government should be doing more. Climate change and its consequences are in the mainstream news all the time, with even Sky News having a Daily Climate Show. I don't think the lack of meaningful action can be blamed on a lack of public awareness. At this point I think it's quite obvious that more pressure needs to be placed on governments and big business.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 19, 2021)

NoXion said:


> Who said anything about what people can or can't do? I'm not calling for new laws, nor even the stricter enforcement of current ones. I'm calling them stupid idiots. Which is what someone is if they think they can push for action on climate change by blocking ordinary commuters going about their business. I'm sure the fossil fuels industry is quaking in their boots right? Actually I think slower traffic burns more fuel, so if anything what happened was a win as far as they are concerned.


I remember blocking the junction at old street in an action against the Iraq war back in '03. Blocking Euston road against council cuts six or so years ago. To name but two examples. Would it have any impact in the war or the cuts? No. Sure we've all blocked the odd ordinary commuter going about their business: tho why you privilege going too or from work I don't know. There isn't always the linkage you seem to insist on between the end - the object - and all the means taken to get there. I don't know why you insist on it in this instance. I don't know why you think the intent of the protest was against the fossil fuel industry when ib's clear and often stated objective is to change government policy on insulation. Yeh have a pop at ib but why do it from a position of abject ignorance?


----------



## kabbes (Dec 19, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I think anyone including these people have the right to protest about anything any want. What no-one has is the right to expect eveyone else to support their cause and not react angrily when their lives are disrupted for a cause they don't support.


They do have the right to expect that people won’t drive 2 tonne vehicles into them though, no matter how late their precious is for school.  That’s out-and-out assault.


----------



## MickiQ (Dec 19, 2021)

kabbes said:


> They do have the right to expect that people won’t drive 2 tonne vehicles into them though, no matter how late their precious is for school.  That’s out-and-out assault.


And that right is being enforced since the driver is going to be prosecuted


----------



## kabbes (Dec 19, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> And that right is being enforced since the driver is going to be prosecuted


So we’re all in agreement then


----------



## 8ball (Dec 20, 2021)

MickiQ said:


> I think anyone including these people have the right to protest about anything any want. What no-one has is the right to expect eveyone else to support their cause and not react angrily when their lives are disrupted for a cause they don't support.



Actually afaik what Insulate Britain want is a fairly popular idea with the public.  It is down to their particular brand of tactical genius that most people would sooner be associated with pubic lice than with them.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 20, 2021)

you dont get to nudge anyone with a range rover.
  what next  Hamas slightly annoyed by an airstrike?
 nudging karen has become some sort of Icon for utter cockwombles. Personally think insulate Britain's aims are great just direct action possibly not the best tactic


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> They do have the right to expect that people won’t drive 2 tonne vehicles into them though, no matter how late their precious is for school.  That’s out-and-out assault.



Whilst I agree it seems to be assault in this case, it certainly wouldn't be in every case. A defence to assault by driving a 2 tonne vehicle at someone with the intention of nudging them so that they refrain from committing an offence of obstruction would be that the force used was necessary and reasonable in the circumstances for the defence of another or prevention of the crime.

It would be quite unlikely for a court to regard nudging as excessive force if there was clearly no intention to injure, so in most cases it would depend on whether the action was necessary. For a child being late to school, probably not, but if someone in the vehicle had a relevant medical condition or was visiting a seriously ill child in hospital or whatever, the court could easily decide that the defendant honestly beleived that the course of action they took was reasonable and necessary.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Whilst I agree it seems to be assault in this case, it certainly wouldn't be in every case. A defence to assault by driving a 2 tonne vehicle at someone with the intention of nudging them so that they refrain from committing an offence of obstruction would be that the force used was necessary and reasonable in the circumstances for the defence of another or prevention of the crime.
> 
> It would be quite unlikely for a court to regard nudging as excessive force if there was clearly no intention to injure, so in most cases it would depend on whether the action was necessary. For a child being late to school, probably not, but if someone in the vehicle had a relevant medical condition or was visiting a seriously ill child in hospital or whatever, the court could easily decide that the defendant honestly beleived that the course of action they took was reasonable and necessary.


I'm sorry, but this is bullshit.  It is entirely foreseeable that hitting somebody with a solid metal, two-tonne object could cause serious, life-altering injury, even at very low speeds.  "Intent to injure" doesn't really come into it.  You can't do something that is clearly foreseeable as dangerous just because you don't _mean _to hurt the people that get hurt.  Aside from anything else, the eggshell skull principle is well established.  You might be able to get away with something violent if you are arguing defence of a person, if you can also show it was reasonable force.  If you want to argue prevention of a general crime, however, your barrier for reasonable force is much tougher.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> I'm sorry, but this is bullshit.  It is entirely foreseeable that hitting somebody with a solid metal, two-tonne object could cause serious, life-altering injury, even at very low speeds.



It didn't though. It's the actual level of force used that is relevant, not what might have happened if the defendant had driven faster or the protester had been frail and become seriously injured. This should be obvious to you - it is foreseeable that hitting somebody in the head with a hand can cause serious life-altering injury, but giving someone a gentle slap is not treated the same as knocking someone out so that their head hits the ground.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It didn't though. It's the actual level of force used that is relevant, not what might have happened if the defendant had driven faster or the protester had been frail and become seriously injured. This should be obvious to you - it is foreseeable that hitting somebody in the head with a hand can cause serious life-altering injury, but giving someone a gentle slap is not treated the same as knocking someone out so that their head hits the ground.


you don't need to knock someone out so their head hits the ground. as any reasonable person can imagine, a sharp push could easily cause someone to strike their head on the ground and be knocked out though they were conscious before hitting the ground. a palm strike is often held up as gentle but can kill. your 'gentle slap' might lead to consequences you had no intention of causing: any force used against another person will be undertaken in ignorance of what it might cause.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

Pickman's model said:


> you don't need to knock someone out so their head hits the ground.


I didn't say you did, did I?


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I didn't say you did, did I?


you were using that as an extreme of violence and it's not. if i pushed you down and you struck your head on the pavement you could easily receive an injury as severe as being knocked out by a punch. the spectrum of force you propose doesn't in fact exist.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> It didn't though. It's the actual level of force used that is relevant, not what might have happened if the defendant had driven faster or the protester had been frail and become seriously injured. This should be obvious to you - it is foreseeable that hitting somebody in the head with a hand can cause serious life-altering injury, but giving someone a gentle slap is not treated the same as knocking someone out so that their head hits the ground.


There’s no such thing as a “gentle slap” when it comes to hitting somebody with a car. The moment you do that on purpose, you have automatically crossed the line into serious violence. If the person isn’t hurt, that’s pure luck.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> There’s no such thing as a “gentle slap” when it comes to hitting somebody with a car. The moment you do that on purpose, you have automatically crossed the line into serious violence. If the person isn’t hurt, that’s pure luck.



Theres clearly a massive spectrum of levels of violence where the driver might be charged with assault but not with injuring the victim. This ranges from driving towards someone extremely slowly with no intent to actually make contact with them, through to driving at someone with such speed that they would inevitably die if hit and where they have little chance of taking avoiding action.

You may think that both of these constitute serious violence, but thankfully the legal system has a different view.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

A “nudge” is clearly on the side of “actually hit somebody” on that scale. It isn’t a threat of violence, it’s extant violence.  It isn’t possible to hit a person with a car safely.


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> A “nudge” is clearly on the side of “actually hit somebody” on that scale. It isn’t a threat of violence, it’s extant violence.



Not “serious violence” though, when considered against the spectrum of assaults of varying seriousness.


----------



## magneze (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Not “serious violence” though, when considered against the spectrum of assaults of varying seriousness.


Deliberately hitting someone with your car is serious violence, you twonk.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Not “serious violence” though, when considered against the spectrum of assaults of varying seriousness.


you fucking plonker  using a car as a weapon is serious violence.


----------



## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Not “serious violence” though, when considered against the spectrum of assaults of varying seriousness.


I honestly find this position astonishing and I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue for here. I am saying her actions were reprehensible and extremely dangerous, certainly as much as a person swinging a punch at somebody or aiming an iron bar at them. What are you saying?  It was kind of okay really?


----------



## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

magneze said:


> Deliberately hitting someone with your car is serious violence, you twonk.



Hitting and pushing aren’t the same thing.



kabbes said:


> I honestly find this position astonishing and I don’t understand what you’re trying to argue for here. I am saying her actions were reprehensible and extremely dangerous, certainly as much as a person swinging a punch at somebody or aiming an iron bar at them. What are you saying?  It was kind of okay really?



If this incident was equivalent to twating someone with an iron bar the protester would be in hospital. The protester was pushed forwards while sitting down, which is why the driver was not charged with a more serious offence.


----------



## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> If this incident was equivalent to twating someone with an iron bar the protester would be in hospital.


that doesn't follow

i know of someone who was dubbed a knight with an iron bar and the new knight never attended hospital


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## liquidindian (Dec 20, 2021)

I wonder what other crimes are acceptable if you do them in a car. Ram raiding is just extreme shopping if you think about it.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidindian said:


> I wonder what other crimes are acceptable if you do them in a car. Ram raiding is just extreme shopping if you think about it.


out of hours shoplifting


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## Cado (Dec 20, 2021)

They're just a group of assholes looking for a cause, rent-a-mob. Half the issues I don't even agree with. I take it for granted they're probably against the freedom to protest here therefore are doing everything in their power to ban themselves. They're doing something wierd in Glasgow today/yesterday because they want MORE immigrants in. Wouldn't be surprised if they all speak funny because they went to funny special schools.


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## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

Who said it was acceptable? I said it was assault in this case, but that not every incident where someone is touched by a car constitutes serious violence, and some such incidents may not even be regarded as assault.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

Cado said:


> They're just a group of assholes looking for a cause, rent-a-mob. Half the issues I don't even agree with. I take it for granted they're probably against the freedom to protest here therefore are doing everything in their power to ban themselves. They're doing something wierd in Glasgow today/yesterday because they want MORE immigrants in. Wouldn't be surprised if they all speak funny because they went to funny special schools.


link pls for this glasgow thing


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## Cado (Dec 20, 2021)

Extinction Rebellion activists block Home Office building in Glasgow


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

Cado said:


> Extinction Rebellion activists block Home Office building in Glasgow


there are two groups, one called extinction rebellion and the other called insulate britain. this is a thread about the latter.


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## Cado (Dec 20, 2021)

There's a difference   good for dyslexics then.


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## magneze (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidindian said:


> I wonder what other crimes are acceptable if you do them in a car. Ram raiding is just extreme shopping if you think about it.


Just do it slowly. 👍


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## magneze (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Who said it was acceptable? I said it was assault in this case, but that not every incident where someone is touched by a car constitutes serious violence, and some such incidents may not even be regarded as assault.


Touched by a car. I'm embarrassed for you.


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## Mrs Miggins (Dec 20, 2021)

I bet it was bloody terrifying having an irate woman start driving her car into your back.


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## liquidindian (Dec 20, 2021)

I do like this new game of starting with a crime and working backwards to find unusual circumstances that might make it acceptable. Can we do it with dropping a piano on someone's head next?


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidindian said:


> I do like this new game of starting with a crime and working backwards to find ways that it might be acceptable. Can we do it with dropping a piano on someone's head next?


make it a synthesizer the sound set as a piano and we can start talking


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## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Who said it was acceptable? I said it was assault in this case, but that not every incident where someone is touched by a car constitutes serious violence, and some such incidents may not even be regarded as assault.


Word to the wise — you’re making yourself look more and more preposterous


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## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

kabbes said:


> Word to the wise — you’re making yourself look more and more preposterous



In this tiny niche here perhaps. But you won't find many people in the real world who would regard being uninjuredly bumped by a car traveling at less than walking speed as "serious violence".


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## mojo pixy (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> In this tiny niche here perhaps. But you find many people in the real world who would regard being uninjuredly bumped by a car traveling at less than walking speed as "serious violence".



No you're right. It's a bit like, say, being tapped - stroked even - with the blunt back edge of a knife. Not even a hint of violence, who would ever mind?


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## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> No you're right. It's a bit like, say, being tapped - stroked even - with the blunt back edge of a knife. Not even a hint of violence, who would ever mind?



Yeah there are no degrees of anything, for example if someone puts their hand your shoulder it's serious violence - no different from being stabbed.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> But you find many people in the real world who would regard being uninjuredly bumped by a car traveling at less than walking speed as "serious violence".


i'm pleased and surprised that you've changed your view


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## mojo pixy (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yeah there are no degrees of anything, for example if someone puts their hand your shoulder it's serious violence - no different from being stabbed.


I don't think you're making sufficient allowance for 'implicit threat level' .. or more importantly, for 'what's the worst that could happen if this goes wrong?'


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

mojo pixy said:


> I don't think you're making sufficient allowance for 'implicit threat level' .. or more importantly, for 'what's the worst that could happen if this goes wrong?'


he is taking the platinumsage


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## Storm Fox (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> Yeah there are no degrees of anything, for example if someone puts their hand your shoulder it's serious violence - no different from being stabbed.


There is no way in the world you can fuck up putting your hand on someone's shoulder that is going to kill them. However it very easy to fuck up just nudging someone with a 2 tonne car producing over a hundred Horsepower / kW. and kill them or give that person life changing injuries.


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## platinumsage (Dec 20, 2021)

Storm Fox said:


> There is no way in the world you can fuck up putting your hand on someone's shoulder that is going to kill them. However it very easy to fuck up just nudging someone with a 2 tonne car producing over a hundred Horsepower / kW. and kill them or give that person life changing injuries.



I don't see how it's more risky than stopping at a zebra crossing while someone crosses in front of the car. In fact there's less chance of the driver's foot coming off the brake or them accidentally going for the wrong pedal.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I don't see how it's more risky than stopping at a zebra crossing while someone crosses in front of the car. In fact there's less chance of the driver's foot coming off the brake or them accidentally going for the wrong pedal.


There are none so blind as those who will not see


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## Storm Fox (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> I don't see how it's more risky than stopping at a zebra crossing while someone crosses in front of the car. In fact there's less chance of the driver's foot coming off the brake or them accidentally going for the wrong pedal.


Because a normal pedestrian will check the speed of on-coming vehicle before crossing.  Also if you look at diagram 52 here The Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2016 the minimum distance between the stop line and the start of the pedestrian crossing area is 1.1m and up to 3 metres. So if a driver's foot slipped they have a chance to slam the breaks on and the pedestrians get out of the way. If you are touching someone with your car, you have no time to react and correct that person is sitting they have no chance of getting out of the way.
I cannot believe I need to type this,  but 1.1m is a BIGGER distance the 0mm.


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## liquidindian (Dec 20, 2021)

Is it riskier to hit someone with a car, or not hit someone with a car? Quite the mystery.


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## kabbes (Dec 20, 2021)

This is so stupidly crazy that I am left to assume that platinumsage is on a wind up.  Nobody is that divorced from the reality of risk and threat.  This is at the level of, "nu-huh, I just put my fist there, you didn't have to put your head in the way."


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## 8ball (Dec 20, 2021)

likesfish said:


> Personally think insulate Britain's aims are great just direct action possibly not the best tactic



Given their aims, I wouldn’t call it “direct action” unless it involved insulating something


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## 8ball (Dec 20, 2021)

liquidindian said:


> Is it riskier to hit someone with a car, or not hit someone with a car? Quite the mystery.



Depends what the situation is.  If you were knocking someone out of the path of a fast-moving train, then you are transferring a lot of risk from the person on the train tracks onto yourself.

Letting them get obliterated by the train is definitely the best course if you are concerned about personal safety and the potential for litigation.


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## 8ball (Dec 20, 2021)

platinumsage said:


> In this tiny niche here perhaps. But you won't find many people in the real world who would regard being uninjuredly bumped by a car traveling at less than walking speed as "serious violence".



Usually it’s not being done on purpose, to be fair.  It seems odd for serious violence to be defined by intention, but then I suppose there are other cases this applies to.
Being tased and being defibrillated have quite a lot in common, for example.


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## Ground Elder (Feb 10, 2022)

Made me laugh -  


> Environmental campaign group buys Cornwall MP's constituency office





> The Insulate Britain supporters have been using the rent money to help cover legal fees


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## Dystopiary (Apr 13, 2022)

The judge who fined 12 Insulate Britain activists has told them that they've "inspired" him. 



> Leake said: “They have inspired me and personally I intend to do what I can to reduce my own impact on the planet, so to that extent your voices are certainly heard,” while adding: “I have heard your voices.”
> 
> Despite saying their actions were inspiring, Leake added that his role was to “apply the law” and said their actions had caused “significant disruption” to the motorway. “These are difficult cases for us judges because we have to apply the law and that is what we have sworn our judicial oaths to do.”



Insulate Britain protesters praised by judge who fined them


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## stavros (Apr 14, 2022)

I haven't read the whole thread, so apologies if this has already been discussed. Does the fact that the government don't like the type of people in Insulate Britain and their methods make it less likely that they, the government, adopt any of the ideas IB are campaigning for?


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