# Johann Hari admits copying and pasting interview quotes



## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Hair has finally been nailed for this piece of shit - for passing off whole sections of another interview as coming from his one, and he's been now been nabbed for doing it in other interviews as well.

Independent columnist Johann Hari admits copying and pasting interview quotes



> So far, so scurrilous. But what's really astonishing is that Johann Hari has now responded to the blog accusations. And cheerfully admitted that he regularly includes in interviews quotes which the interviewee never actually said to him.



The DSG thing pointing this out is here - do have a look at the stuff Hari just blatantly stole. It's pretty astonishing.

(original thread here)


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## frogwoman (Jun 28, 2011)

Bloody hell.


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## frogwoman (Jun 28, 2011)

I always knew hari was a bit of a tosser although he writes some good stuff occasionally


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## DrRingDing (Jun 28, 2011)

Bit of a tosser? 

His tubthumping for the Iraq war will not be forgotten.


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## frogwoman (Jun 28, 2011)

sorry, yep, that was an understatement. make that a lying bastard then ...


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## Crispy (Jun 28, 2011)

Deserves its own thread, no?


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Yeah, why not - just wanted to make sure it was tagged onto this thread that most people haven't seen so that they could see there was controversy about this interview (still the worst one i think i;ve ever read) at the time.


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

*interviews by hari*

johann hari is the top trending twitter hashtag (yeah, sorry) after being rumbled inserting quotes into his interviews as if the interviewee said them to him...

the sorry tale here

my favourite spoof so far: 



> Barnes articulated his philosophy. "You've got to hold and give," he said, "but do it at the right time". #interviewsbyhari


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## gawkrodger (Jun 28, 2011)

ha. Was just searching for this thread (for the above letter) after reading that Brian Whelan blog


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

didn't see this sorry.

mebe you should delete my thread while there's still only one post...


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## Crispy (Jun 28, 2011)

I moved it here instead


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

great stuff, it was the anarcho commie marxist at DSG that brought it to wider attention, then a mate of mine Brian Whelan jumped on it and finally the lil tubby lesbian looking fucker has got nailed.


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

That is one solid nailing and Hari is now guilty of just about the lowest journalistic practice.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> That is one solid nailing and Hari is now guilty of just about the lowest journalistic practice.


 
Really? He's guilty alright, but no more so than any other hack out there.


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## agricola (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> That is one solid nailing and Hari is now guilty of just about the lowest journalistic practice.


 
I would have thought recent history would have demonstrated that what Hari has done is nowhere near the lowest journalistic practice.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> great stuff, it was the anarcho commie marxist at DSG that brought it to wider attention, then a mate of mine Brian Whelan jumped on it and finally the *lil tubby lesbian looking fucker* has got nailed.



Unnecessary. Schadenfreude is one thing; that sort of phrase is another.


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## Deareg (Jun 28, 2011)

I was under the impression that this was standard practice among journalists? this and telling lies.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I was under the impression that this was standard practice among journalists? this and telling lies.


 
Yeah, the only reason I can see for this "outrage" is that he dared mix it up in an interview with that leftie poster-boy.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Have you ever seen one nailed so perfectly though? And let's be clear, he didn't make quotes up, i think we all expect a bit of that (justified in doing it or not) - he stole the words of others and pretended they were his. Seemed he thought it could get away with due to the obscurity of those he stole from and the language they wrote in.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Have you ever seen one nailed so perfectly though? And let's be clear, he didn't make quotes up, i think we all expect a bit of that (justified in doing it or not) - he stole the words of others and pretended they were his. Seemed he thought it could get away with due to the obscurity of those he stole from and the language they wrote in.


 
And? What's new? At least he didn't outright make lies up did he? Plagiarism is the bread and butter of what passes for journalism these days in any event.


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Really? He's guilty alright, but no more so than any other hack out there.


 
yeah, i noticed laurie penny rallying round too...


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And? What's new? At least he didn't outright make lies up did he? Plagiarism is the bread and butter of what passes for journalism these days in any event.


 
That's it is it? 'So what'? Ok, let's see the list of people caught doing exactly this recently please. Is that really it? he's guilty but others are guilty too? Ok, let's not worry, let's not bother exposing them and the whole thing that they're a part of. How lazy is that?


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's it is it? 'So what'? Ok, let's see the list of people caught doing exactly this recently please. Is that really it? he's guilty but others are guilty too? Ok, let's not worry, let's not bother exposing them and the whole thing that they're a part of. How lazy is that?


 
Can't be bothered to compile lists tbh. I'm just expressing surprise that you expected any better from Hari. Expose away, I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve is all. We're not disagreeing on the fact that what he did was wrong, lazy and fucked-up, btw.


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

Steel☼Icarus said:


> Unnecessary. Schadenfreude is one thing; that sort of phrase is another.


 
sorry but he does look like a tubby lesbian.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Can't be bothered to compile lists tbh. I'm just expressing surprise that you expected any better from Hari. Expose away, I'm not sure what you're hoping to achieve is all. We're not disagreeing on the fact that what he did was wrong, lazy and fucked-up, btw.


 
Who said that i expected better from Hari? It certainly wasn't me. The whole point of my criticisms of him on the original thread was precisely that i didn't. And that i didn't based on how much journalism - esp of the comment kind, works. And now i'm happy to see this proven beyond doubt  and proven in public. The game of saying they're all at it ends up in some extended  tu quoque and they all get off the hook that way.


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## Steel Icarus (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Have you ever seen one nailed so perfectly though? And let's be clear, he didn't make quotes up, i think we all expect a bit of that (justified in doing it or not) - he stole the words of others and pretended they were his. Seemed he thought it could get away with due to the obscurity of those he stole from and the language they wrote in.


 
I thought he'd taken bits of other people's work & passed them off as things they'd said in interview, explaining that it gives a clearer picture without all the ums and ah and what have you.


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## frogwoman (Jun 28, 2011)

i know why.


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

agricola said:


> I would have thought recent history would have demonstrated that what Hari has done is nowhere near the lowest journalistic practice.


Oh shit, I had clean forgotten about the ongoing Wapping saga! and  at self.
Yes, absolutely, this pales into insignificance via the widespread phone-hacking scandal, as that is after all 100% criminal behaviour.
I suppose what i was fumbling towards, is that it's a long time since I saw somebody so completely misrepresenting - and plagiarising - as this, and from a journo who (unlike the pondvermin on the NOTW and the _Sun_) presents himself as credible and authoritative, and with integrity


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## frogwoman (Jun 28, 2011)

yep and because he's come to be seen as left wing despite his cheerleading the iraq war


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

Deareg said:


> I was under the impression that this was standard practice among journalists? this and telling lies.


by and large, not outside of the tabloids, no it isn't


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Really? He's guilty alright, but no more so than any other hack out there.


Actually, I can think of more than a few who wouldn't ever stoop this low


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> Oh shit, I had clean forgotten about the ongoing Wapping saga! and  at self.
> Yes, absolutely, this pales into insignificance via the widespread phone-hacking scandal, as that is after all 100% criminal behaviour.
> I suppose what i was fumbling towards, is that it's a long time since I saw somebody so completely misrepresenting - and plagiarising - as this, and from a journo who (unlike the pondvermin on the NOTW and the _Sun_) presents himself as credible and authoritative, and with integrity


 
When we knew all along he wasn't - ie Iraq for starters.


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> When we knew all along he wasn't - ie Iraq for starters.


very true, but others don't, and he is presented, assertively, by his employer as a cut above the rest, award-winning etc


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> very true, but others don't, and he is presented, assertively, by his employer as a cut above the rest, award-winning etc


 
Others, meaning other than the people who've posted on here? Everyone on here knew.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> sorry but he does look like a tubby lesbian.


Post your photo up. The public have a prurient interest It's in the public interest.


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## love detective (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> then a mate of mine Brian Whelan


 
Are you mates with Bill Oddie as well 

I met Brian when he did the interview for the afa book for look left - as usual with libcommers, complete dick online but a nice guy in real life


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Post your photo up. The public have a prurient interest It's in the public interest.


 
my pic is in my  profile


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## manny-p (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> my pic is in my  profile


 
whats with the gimp mask?


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

love detective said:


> Are you mates with Bill Oddie as well
> 
> I met Brian when he did the interview for the afa book for look left - as usual with libcommers, complete dick online but a nice guy in real life


 
yeah, there does seem to be some sort of inverse relation between politeness on boards and real life, some of the people who come across polite on boards are very rude in real life.


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 28, 2011)

Nah, he's in denial about his posh origins, allybaba. That scarf is to hide his chinless wonder-ness.


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

allybaba said:


> whats with the gimp mask?


 
your mum likes it.


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Nah, he's in denial about his posh origins. That scarf is to hide his chinless wonder-ness.


 
posh?

first time i've been called that.


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## JHE (Jun 28, 2011)

Using stuff from an interviewee's writings and passing it off as part of the interview is less than scrupulous, but it is far less bad than making up quotes or distorting the interviewee's expressed opinions.  Unfortunately, those graver sins are pretty common in the British media.


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## manny-p (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> your mum likes it.


 
Your mum wears yours for her clients


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 28, 2011)

JHE said:


> Using stuff from an interviewee's writings and passing it off as part of the interview is less than scrupulous, but it is far less bad than making up quotes or distorting the interviewee's expressed opinions.  Unfortunately, those graver sins are pretty common in the British media.


Tell me about it. The Evening Standard did a double page spread that was supposed to be a vox-pop from the streets of Brixton but in truth was lifted from the Brixton forum. Unfortunately the lifter was unable to realise that comedy posts were not actually deadly serious.


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## scifisam (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> sorry but he does look like a tubby lesbian.


 
Kinda - in his main indy photo and twitter photo he looks like a tubby women who doesn't do make-up and girlyness, which is not all lesbians, but ISWYM because it's news to me that he's a he. 

In his other pictures (I just image search him) he looks more masculine. 

I've read a few of his articles, mostly after friends retweeting links to them, and he always seemed sound in those.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

JHE said:


> Using stuff from an interviewee's writings and passing it off as part of the interview is less than scrupulous, but it is far less bad than making up quotes or distorting the interviewee's expressed opinions.  Unfortunately, those graver sins are pretty common in the British media.


 
Hari did exactly that in the interview as well. That's why it's stuck in so many peoples minds for so long. At the time of the original interview the publicist wrote a letter that the independent refused to publish that straight up accused Hari of lying (amongst other things), here's the relevant part:



> As a footnote: I was the so-called 'publicist' mentioned in the article(I work for Continuum, the publishers of 'Time for Revolution', and was involved in organising the ICA event). A few minor, but incorrectly reported, details that I have personal knowledge of (eg, there was no taxi called, I didn't say the things ascribed to me, Negri wasn't behaving arrogantly as suggested, there was no angry confontation with ICA staff, etc) casts serious doubt on the veracity of anything that Hari says.


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## scifisam (Jun 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Tell me about it. The Evening Standard did a double page spread that was supposed to be a vox-pop from the streets of Brixton but in truth was lifted from the Brixton forum. Unfortunately the lifter was unable to realise that comedy posts were not actually deadly serious.


 
The TES newspaper often used to (and probably still does) include quotes from teachers that are actually quotes from people on the TES messageboards. At least they're their own messageboards, but they do nothing to verify that the people posting are really teachers, and some of the people there... well... I know lots of teachers are a bit mad, but some of them are WAY beyond compulsory retirement if they were ever teachers at all.


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Hari did exactly that in the interview as well. That's why it's stuck in so many peoples minds for so long. At the time of the original interview the publicist wrote a letter that the independent refused to publish that straight up accused Hari of lying (amongst other things), here's the relevant part:


 
not seen this mentioned elsewhere butch (not this time round anyway) - it certainly puts his claims no-one's ever complained in a different light. i assume you've ensured it's circulated...?


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Have a look on the first thread, i posted the full letter there. This was 7 years ago mind...


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

that's what i mean - i've only seen it here, and as it's 7 years ago it's possibly not surfaced elsewhere yet - so it may be a good idea to spread it around a bit...


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Others, meaning other than the people who've posted on here? Everyone on here knew.


I think the world in general is slightly bigger than the U75 community, actually! We're really not that represntative of mainstream opinion, nor necessarily of the readership of 'quality' newspapers, such as the _Indie_ purports to be


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Tell me about it. The Evening Standard did a double page spread that was supposed to be a vox-pop from the streets of Brixton but in truth was lifted from the Brixton forum. Unfortunately the lifter was unable to realise that comedy posts were not actually deadly serious.


do you mean the Crack squirrels classic?


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

killer b said:


> that's what i mean - i've only seen it here, and as it's 7 years ago it's possibly not surfaced elsewhere yet - so it may be a good idea to spread it around a bit...


 
Ah right, got you now. It's been in the some of the mainstream reports that i saw ealier, can't find where right now though.

The right wingers are really on his case now, that guidop fawkes knob has pressured this from the Media Standards Trust who fund Hari's Orwell Prize.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Who said that i expected better from Hari? It certainly wasn't me. The whole point of my criticisms of him on the original thread was precisely that i didn't. And that i didn't based on how much journalism - esp of the comment kind, works. And now i'm happy to see this proven beyond doubt  and proven in public. The game of saying they're all at it ends up in some extended  tu quoque and they all get off the hook that way.


 
Sorry, didn't see this. So where does this take us - what good will exposing Hari do?


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Sorry, didn't see this. So where does this take us - what good will exposing Hari do?


 
allows us all to laugh at the jumped up lil liberal cunt, who was the liberal mouthpiece for the Iraq war.

anything that shows up middle brow liberals is good by me, brings a smile to my face, a spring to my step and I'll be raising a toast to DSG and Weeler tonight for fucking the smug little liberals career up good.


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> The right wingers are really on his case now, that guidop fawkes knob has pressured this from the Media Standards Trust who fund Hari's Orwell Prize.


 
yeah, toby young is on it too. which is a touch ironic, as he's fairly lax with the truth himself, iirc.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Sorry, didn't see this. So where does this take us - what good will exposing Hari do?


 
Why these stupid questions? First 'so what' now 'what good will it do?' Why do things have to 'do good before 'i can enjoy them and any beneficial effects that may follow? What 'good' does you agreeing with me about his behaviour do? What 'good' does your question do?


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> allows us all to laugh at the jumped up lil liberal cunt, who was the liberal mouthpiece for the Iraq war.
> 
> anything that shows up middle brow liberals is good by me, brings a smile to my face, a spring to my step and I'll be raising a toast to DSG and Weeler tonight for fucking the smug little liberals career up good.


 
What, you think this is going to have serious repercussions for him? HAHAHAH!


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Why these stupid questions? First 'so what' now 'what good will it do?' Why do things have to 'do good before 'i can enjoy them and any beneficial effects that may follow? What 'good' does you agreeing with me about his behaviour do? What 'good' does your question do?


 
Fuck all. I'm just amused at people working up a nice righteous froth here. As for beneficial effects..... really? Fuck me, didn't think you were that naive butchers.


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

exposing crooks is always in and of itself a good thing, no?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> do you mean the Crack squirrels classic?


No. It was around the Paddick time and I think it was supposed to be a sort of "Living in Brixton is Shit Because of Paddick" piece I think.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Fuck all. I'm just amused at people working up a nice righteous froth here. As for beneficial effects..... really? Fuck me, didn't think you were that naive butchers.


Sorry, is this hard bitten realist tone you're most definitely _adopting_ doing any 'good'? If so, what?

Tbh you're sounding more like hey man, what good can hate and negativity do, than a cynical player.


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## gawkrodger (Jun 28, 2011)

just made it onto radio 4


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## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What, you think this is going to have serious repercussions for him? HAHAHAH!


 
yeah, i reckon it is. it certainly should.


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## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What, you think this is going to have serious repercussions for him? HAHAHAH!


depends on the value his employers place on his credibility, as that is now shot to fuck


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> What, you think this is going to have serious repercussions for him? HAHAHAH!


 
it is already, sure he'll continue on in some manner but his lil honeymoon as the liberal poster lesbian is gone, he'll have ahard time staying on at the Indie.

can't you just enjoy a smug liberal wanker getting his just desserts?


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Sorry, is this hard bitten realist tone you're most definitely _adopting_ doing any 'good'? If so, what?
> 
> Tbh you're sounding more like hey man, what good can hate and negativity do, than a cynical player.


 
Hey, maybe I misunderstood your motivations for posting up this stuff - if it was for a chuckle fair fucks cuz that's all it's gonna achieve, unless you think this and similar will unleash a tide of integrity and truth-telling in the MSM. I'm cynical alright, but hardly a player.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> it is already, sure he'll continue on in some manner but his lil honeymoon as the liberal poster lesbian is gone, he'll have ahard time staying on at the Indie.
> 
> can't you just enjoy a smug liberal wanker getting his just desserts?


 
Gloat away, I'm just saying in the bigger picture it's pretty inconsequential. Did he entirely misrepresent Negri's views?


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

I didn't start this thread - it was split off from a thread from 7 years ago. Seriously, why even suggest i may think 'this and similar will unleash a tide of integrity and truth-telling in the MSM'?


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Streathamite said:


> depends on the value his employers place on his credibility, as that is now shot to fuck


 
Seems to me that media memories are short. anyway, we shall see.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's it is it? 'So what'? Ok, let's see the list of people caught doing exactly this recently please. Is that really it? he's guilty but others are guilty too? Ok, let's not worry, let's not bother exposing them and the whole thing that they're a part of. How lazy is that?


 
This, butchers, kinda made it seem as if you thought this expose of Hari would achieve something, and I assumed you thought it was change for the better. Silly me, clearly.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> This, butchers, kinda made it seem as if you thought this expose of Hari would achieve something, and I assumed you thought it was change for the better. Silly me, clearly.


 
No it doesn't. You claimed that was Hari has been caught at is standard practice, i asked your for other examples to demonstrate this, that's all. I didn't invite you on a crusade - and you've filled in the gaps with some nonsense.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No it doesn't. You claimed that was Hari has been caught at is standard practice, i asked your for other examples to demonstrate this, that's all. I didn't invite you on a crusade - and you've filled in the gaps with some nonsense.


 
You're always on a crusade, BA, that's your USP after all. As for media shenanigans, do I really have to compile lists of people who've lied or misrepresented shit? Really?


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Gloat away, I'm just saying in the bigger picture it's pretty inconsequential. Did he entirely misrepresent Negri's views?


 
Yes, I remember the discussion on here at the time it was published and it ranks as one of the all time worst interviews I've ever read, it wasn't even a standard hatchet job, it was a mess and now we know why.

There is a certain reward in seeing him get nailed for it, especially after all this time.


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## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

Truxta what is up with you today, you've spent most of it defending the middle classes right to hire cleaners without being slagged off and now you're putting in an admittedly lacklustre defence for Hari?


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> You're always on a crusade, BA, that's your USP after all. As for media shenanigans, do I really have to compile lists of people who've lied or misrepresented shit? Really?


 
You said what hari did is normal. Fine, let's have some examples of this normality. Or you could stop this pointless combination of hole digging and forcing motivations down my throat


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Truxta what is up with you today, you've spent most of it defending the middle classes right to hire cleaners without being slagged off and now you're putting in an admittedly lacklustre defence for Hari?


 
I'm down with a flu and feeling cranky as fuck. You're in the way.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You said what hari did is normal. Fine, let's have some examples of this normality. Or you could stop this pointless combination of hole digging and forcing motivations down my throat


 
Actually Hari said that what he did was normal. I merely added that it's the MO for journos to make shit up/misprepresent, even when it serves no purpose. I already said I can't be fucked to compile lists - FFS there are entire websites devoted to this shit.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Simon Kelner, editor of the Independent has said in 10 years of Hari's work they've never had a single complaint about misrepresentation. He's lying - they had at least one about this article and they refused to print it.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Simon Kelner, editor of the Independent has said in 10 years of Hari's work they've never had a single complaint about misrepresentation. He's lying - they had at least one about this article and they refused to print it.


 
There, you just proved my point about normality. The Wapping stuff is another, any war coverage pretty much a third.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Actually Hari said that what he did was normal. I merely added that it's the MO for journos to make shit up/misprepresent, even when it serves no purpose. I already said I can't be fucked to compile lists - FFS there are entire websites devoted to this shit.



Is this flu effecting your memory or something?

Hari might have done, but you did too, without even mentioning that you were somehow supporting Hari's claim. 




			
				you said:
			
		

> And? What's new? At least he didn't outright make lies up did he? Plagiarism is the bread and butter of what passes for journalism these days in any event.



And as i pointed out in the post you were offering that reply to, this is not just simple misrepresentation, it's taking someone else's words and inserting them in your article, so you don't get off the hook by saying that all we know journalists misrepresent or lie - i was on about something different entirely. 

And yes, he did make up lies. Yet you say in the post quoted above that he didn't, but also now in this post that it's normal for them to do so - which is it? This is well sloppy i have to say.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> There, you just proved my point about normality. The Wapping stuff is another, any war coverage pretty much a third.


 
What, Simon kelner just inserted series of quotes into interviews and pretended they happened did he? I'm not sure that you know what you're being asked here. Do you really think i'm asking you if journalists misrepresent things or people?


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Is this flu effecting your memory or something?
> 
> Hari might have done, but you did too, without even mentioning that you were somehow supporting Hari's claim.
> 
> ...


 
Ok, I was a bit sloppy. And he plagiarised shit. What's new.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Do you really think i'm asking you if journalists misrepresent things or people?


 
I dunno mystic meg, you tell me.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Ok, I was a bit sloppy. And he plagiarised shit. What's new.


Nope, not interested anymore if that's it trucster.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Likewise.


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## Refused as fuck (Jun 28, 2011)

Communism 1 - 0 Hari. jajajajajajajajajjajajajjajjajajajajajajjajajajajajajajajja


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## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Truxta what is up with you today, you've spent most of it defending the middle classes right to hire cleaners without being slagged off and now you're putting in an admittedly lacklustre defence for Hari?


 
Johann is truxta's lesbian lover.


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## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Johann is truxta's lesbian lover.


 
Sweet of you to think of me like that.


----------



## Streathamite (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Plagiarism is the bread and butter of what passes for journalism these days in any event.


Not necessarily - or not at the 'quality' end of the market


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Sweet of you to think of me like that.


 
What, do you think I'm hooking you up with too high a class of carpet-muncher?


----------



## revlon (Jun 28, 2011)

thought the standard line was: people don't automatically believe what they read in the papers.

1. why would people believe what hari wrote about negri as being true?
2. why is it such a revelation when it turns out not to be true?

Surely the _perception is_ all journalists, like all politicans, lie. It's their job.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Jun 28, 2011)

Hari caught out in _2003_:

http://student.cs.ucc.ie/cs1064/jabowen/IPSC/articles/article0003736.html


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## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2011)

Five will get you ten that Hari is right this minute sitting in his Fortress of Cuntitude, clad only in  his undercrackers and laughing like a Bond villain.


'Dance monkeys, dance' he's saying as he contemplates his readership.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> What, do you think I'm hooking you up with too high a class of carpet-muncher?


 
Anyone, really, carpet-muncher or not.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 28, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> Five will get you ten that Hari is right this minute sitting in his Fortress of Cuntitude, clad only in  his undercrackers and laughing like a Bond villain.
> 
> 
> 'Dance monkeys, dance' he's saying as he contemplates his readership.


 
More like


----------



## love detective (Jun 28, 2011)

noticed owen 'the commodification of the working class by owen jones' jones is doing his best to defend hari


----------



## killer b (Jun 28, 2011)

hehe



> I spoke to @Simon_Kelner a few months ago, "no-one has ever complained about being misrepresented by you" he purred #interviewsbyhari


----------



## Idris2002 (Jun 28, 2011)

TruXta said:


>


----------



## revol68 (Jun 28, 2011)

it's going to be on Newnight, lol.


----------



## manny-p (Jun 28, 2011)

revol68 said:


> it's going to be on Newnight, lol.


 
Great will catch that on iplayer.


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## OneStrike (Jun 28, 2011)

I'm interested to read his defense in the I tomorrow and if he accepts that he owes an apology.  







Edit: that came out tiny, tomorrows front page,   Hari; what i think of the attacks on my professional integrity.


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## butchersapron (Jun 28, 2011)

Chomsky has previously accused hari of 'idiotic fabrications' as well. 

http://www.johannhari.com/2003/12/04/noam-chomsky-s-attack-on-johann


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## Pickman's model (Jun 28, 2011)

OneStrike said:


> Edit: that came out tiny, tomorrows front page,   Hari; what i think of the attacks on my professional integrity.


 he has professional integrity?  not any more he doesn't.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Hari's excuse today is that Negri (who he never once even mentions in his mea culpa as he knows it's far more damaging than the other one he concentrates on) is because Negri has bad english. _Maybe that's why a  translator was present at the interview eh?_ You've just dug the hole a bit deeper. The independent have now very honoursbly removed their link to the Negri interview - it was still working yesterday so here's another link to it.


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## revol68 (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Hari's excuse today is that Negri (who he never once even mentions in his mea culpa as he knows it's far more damaging than the other one he concentrates on) is because Negri has bad english. _Maybe that's why a  translator was present at the interview eh?_ You've just dug the hole a bit deeper. The independent have now very honoursbly removed their link to the Negri interview - it was still working yesterday so here's another link to it.



You just know the little shit never expected to get hauled up over the Negri hatchet job, especially nearly 7 years later, talking shit about some obscure Italian communist must have seemed like one of the safest bets. Unlucky for him he's so hated on the left and now 7 years after picking up his shilling for the Negri mash up he's sitting in a corner crying, as it was put on Newsnight. Brilliant.


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## Louis MacNeice (Jun 29, 2011)

It is not as if Hari couldn't have quoted from Negri's published work to show a clearer exposition of an idea put forward in the interview. He not only choose not to do so, but went further by inventing a context for the unacknowledged quote; presumably to cement it firmly in the interview as an actual event.

Louis MacNeice


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## eoin_k (Jun 29, 2011)

The independent seem to have a very tight grip of what comments/tweets they are publishing on this story.


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## 19sixtysix (Jun 29, 2011)

Isn't the word plagiarism relevant here. Has anyone asked his old university for comment on his university work?
Wikipedia "he graduated with a double first in Social and Political Sciences at King's College, Cambridge, in 2001."


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Caught in another one, not quite the same but very similar - taking quotes from another interview and making it look like they came from an interview with him. This sort of one is far more common than the other ones he's been exposed for i expect.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

...and even more


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## gawkrodger (Jun 29, 2011)

I msut confess I'm greatly enjoying this. I'm looking forward to more squirming  in the coming days


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## gosub (Jun 29, 2011)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ing-pretend-parkinson-interview-201106294011/


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## Barking_Mad (Jun 29, 2011)

haha!



> CHOIR-preacher Johann Hari has dismissed claims of plagiarism during a fantasy interview where he pretended he was talking to Michael Parkinson.
> 
> 
> 'Johann, tell me what it was like working with Doris Day?'
> ...



http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ing-pretend-parkinson-interview-201106294011/


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## strummerville (Jun 29, 2011)

His response today. Fair enough. He holds his hands up on Iraq as well. Describes his previous views as "shameful".  http://johannhari.com/2011/06/29/my...ns?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook


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## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

Fair enough? The man's a plagiarist.


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## gosub (Jun 29, 2011)

Holding his hands up over Iraq, highlights part of the problem with what he's been up to. People's attitudes change over time. His "interviews" undermine that, at the very least.


Tainted goods


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Another well sneaky one


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## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

It's considered one of the worst journalistic practices to do what Hari has done. It's dishonest, misleading and taking quotes from others and not crediting them is shoddy practice whether he's slightly altered them to resemble his own words or not. And yes, it is plagiarism. If he'd done this when writing an academic essay or during an academic exam then he'd quite likely be tossed out of whichever institution he was studying at. He's been caught about as red-handed as he could be and if any of the editors I've written for found me doing it then I'd probably not be writing for them again. Hari not only does this, he also seems to think it's perfectly OK to do this which, IMHO, is indicative of a shoddy, careless and dishonest attitude to writing and journalistic practice in general. Also, the fact that he's changed the wording of the original quotes suggests very strongly that he was well aware of what he was doing, which is why he altered the wording to try and conceal the fact of what he did.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Excellent, Kellner's made it worse by claiming it's all 'political' (i.e right wing) and "fabricated anger" - now they'll have the whole of the outraged liberal on-line community on their back. Apart from the cynical outraged liberals.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 29, 2011)

Yeah I just saw that shitty piece.
It's been lovely to see all the other journos rushing round to protect one of their own, fuck them all


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## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> Yeah I just saw that shitty piece.
> It's been lovely to see all the other journos rushing round to protect one of their own, fuck them all


 
Journalists often tend to protect their own, certainly, but there's another reason which is it could be well-known within the media that Hari has been plagiarising quotes, fabricating quotes and deliberately misleading the readership. If it is common knowledge that he's been doing this and he's obviously been doing it for some considerable time, then any colleague or editor who knew about it is open to accusations of having connived at Hari's shoddy working standards and lack of ethics. So they could well be rallying round as much to protect themselves as protect him.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Well, he's just shat all over them then. Yesterday he said his colleagues all do it and it's fine. Today he says that it and they are wrong. That's what they get for defending him.


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## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Excellent, Kellner's made it worse by claiming it's all 'political' (i.e right wing) and "fabricated anger" - now they'll have the whole of the outraged liberal on-line community on their back. Apart from the cynical outraged liberals.


 
That'll be me then.


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## Idris2002 (Jun 29, 2011)

Tempting though it is to assume that the Hari Lemon will crash and burn as a result of this, I think we'll have Johann Hari to kick around for some time yet.


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## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well, he's just shat all over them then. Yesterday he said his colleagues all do it and it's fine. Today he says that it and they are wrong. That's what they get for defending him.


 
And I don't doubt he'll end up paying for it behind the scenes. Journalists tend to have long memories and vindictive attitudes towards anybody who makes them look like idiots and it seems that Hari has just done exactly that. That and there'll be no shortage of ambitious cub reporters and wannabe columnists who'll most likely cry crocodile tears while looking at the most effective way to slip into Hari's spot, if he becomes enough of a liability to get the boot. If Hari had half the media savvy that he seems to think he's got, then he'd have simply held up his hands and eaten humble pie then dropped off the radar for a while until the fuss blew over and things had calmed down somewhat.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

I bet penny is shitting it right now. I suspect she's next.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

I've rarely been so angry reading a thread on here, or anywhere else, as I have reading this.

OK, probably there's some substance to the allegations against him. And I don't always agree with him. But _kick him around?_ A guy who, apart from many other scandals he's reported on over the years, has been out to the Congo reporting on the war fought over that material they put in mobile 'phones, which everyone else wants to try and forget about?

What have you, _ any_ of you, done with your lives to put against that?

Kick him around? A guy who's at least honest about the mistake he made in supporting the Iraq war?

Just because Hari isn't perfect, and probably he isn't, you think you all have the right to sit on your asses typing at a keyboard throwing shit at him. Fine - then do something yourself in this far from perfect world you live in to show him, and the rest of us, how to stick it to The Boss and really make him go back to Mummy and cry. With any luck you can link to it back here.

It's all so easy on an Internet board, isn't it?

Listen you self-righteous fuckers;

Sometimes you have to settle for what you can get. And Hari's better than most journalists out there. A lot better.

Guess I won't be getting a birthday thread on this sad excuse for a board after all.


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

you're angrier reading this than you were reading phora shit??


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## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

lol.


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## love detective (Jun 29, 2011)




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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Get to fuck - "OK, probably there's some substance to the allegations against him" - that's your standards is it, that's all you have you say on his journalistic ethics and what this says about journalism full stop? He's done some things you admire so you think he's entitled to do what the hell he likes? To be judged by different standards from the rest of us? And kick him around was an allusion to Nixon's moaning after losing the the presidential election. What pathetic double-standards whining.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> you're angrier reading this than you were reading phora shit??



Yep.


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> Yep.


 
not having a go ... just ... surprised. and disappointed.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Get to fuck



OK.

Let's see you do better.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Than your whining? Than your double standards? Already have done. Are you really going to just ignore what the rest of your post actually entails? That people who do things you like should be entitled to be judged by different standards than mere mortals.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> not having a go ... just ... surprised. and disappointed.



I don't expect better from many of the wankers on the Phora. I do expect better from people on here.

That's the difference.


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

how do you know he hasn't?


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## love detective (Jun 29, 2011)

what's the phora?


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

killer b said:


> lol.


 
I'm impressed by the brevity iof that. Not by its content.


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## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> I've rarely been so angry reading a thread on here, or anywhere else, as I have reading this.
> 
> OK, probably there's some substance to the allegations against him. And I don't always agree with him. But _kick him around?_ A guy who, apart from many other scandals he's reported on over the years, has been out to the Congo reporting on the war fought over that material they put in mobile 'phones, which everyone else wants to try and forget about?
> 
> ...


 
Hahahaha! Oooooooooooooooh, you're such a funny type.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> how do you know he hasn't?


 
How could i? This is what these idiots have reduced worthwhile political activity down to - oxbridge boys flying off to distant parts on the company dollar. That's what counts to them.


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## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Not a word on Hari's behaviour from meltingpot, not a single comment on the Negri article that sparked this off - nothing. But who is she to judge someone like Hari i suppose.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

love detective said:


> what's the phora?


 
You probably wouldn't want to know, but google for "The Phora" and you'll find it.


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## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

Fact is, Hari's not better than most journalists out there. If he was, he wouldn't be copying other people's works and then start blubbering when people found out would he? He's not even a piss-stain on the boots of someone like Pilger.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Fact is, Hari's not better than most journalists out there. If he was, he wouldn't be copying other people's works and then start blubbering when people found out would he? He's not even a piss-stain on the boots of someone like Pilger.


 
I disagree. Given time (Hari's still young) he could be another Pilger.

Pilger's one of his heroes anyway IIRC so it's not really fair to compare him to Pilger - any more than it would be to compare a young Bob Dylan to Woody Guthrie.


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

the point is that committing fraud devalues all the good that you might of done over the years. And indeed means that your claims to have done this are questionable anyway. If you are discovered to be partaking in this level of dishonesty it casts doubt on everything you might or might not of done, or at least your motives for doing it anyway. No wonder journalism is in such a fucking state.


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## past caring (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> I've rarely been so angry reading a thread on here, or anywhere else, as I have reading this.
> 
> OK, probably there's some substance to the allegations against him. And I don't always agree with him. But _kick him around?_ A guy who, apart from many other scandals he's reported on over the years, has been out to the Congo reporting on the war fought over that material they put in mobile 'phones, which everyone else wants to try and forget about?
> 
> ...



I am Mother Theresa reincarnated so do one you mug cunt.


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## love detective (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> You probably wouldn't want to know, but google for "The Phora" and you'll find it.


 
and is it less bad than people rightly pulling up hari for his smug pompous dishonesty and lack of integrity?


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> I disagree. Given time (Hari's still young) he could be another Pilger.


i guess at least he'll try writing his own stuff from now on. that's bound to bring him on as a writer.


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## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK.
> 
> Let's see you do better.


 
It's a simple matter of journalistic ethics. He plagiarised other people's work and didn't credit it to them as he should have done. He attributed those made-up quotes to people when they didn't actually say them. He misled the readership. He basically falsified parts of a number of his published pieces and passed them off as journalistic fact.

One of the worst and most looked down on practices in writing is plagiarism. One of the worst practices in journalism is falsifying parts of a published story. One of the things that journalists are specifically told NOT to do while they're training is exactly what Hari has been caught doing and it isn't simply a one-off error of judgement either. So what does he expect as a response? He knowingly and deliberately played fast and loose with journalistic tradition and best practice and was caught doing it, so he can hardly expect a Pulitzer for doing something that, had it been done by a cub reporter, would have resulted not only in their being immediately fired from wherever they worked, but also would have ruined any chance of a freelance career for the foreseeable future as well.

He broke the rules. He was caught. He'll be called to account for it. Simple.

Simply because he previously did some decent work doesn't entitle him, in any way, to fabricate parts of his output as and when he feels like it.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> I disagree. Gioven time (hari's still young) he could be another Pilger.


 
I sincerely doubt it. Time will tell I suppose but nothing he's done so far has particularly impressed me. That link butchers put up earlier about his trip to Iraq kinda put paid to any such notions. The man's a wannabe.


----------



## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not a word on Hari's behaviour from meltingpot, not a single comment on the Negri article that sparked this off - nothing. But who is she to judge someone like Hari i suppose.


 
Yeah, I know I post like a girl, you've told me so before...

I'll swallow that one though, there's more important things to worry about.


----------



## past caring (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> I disagree. Given time (Hari's still young) he could be another Pilger.



Forget the plagarism - he'd need to learn to write first. Fuck's sake. I could be another Karl Marx, yeah - I'm only 48.


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## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

past caring said:


> I am Mother Theresa reincarnated so do one you mug cunt.



I have my faults but I'm the last person you could call (s)mug.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

It's like that South Korean scientist who claimed to have cloned a dog, once his research got found out to be fraudulent it cast doubt , and a shadow, on everything he had done in his career. EVERYTHING.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's like that South Korean scientist who claimed to have cloned a dog, once his research got found out to be fraudulent it cast doubt , and a shadow, on everything he had done in his career. EVERYTHING.


 
Which is entirely as it should be. Everything he's written ought to be scrutinized, and he should offer an apology to everyone whose work he's ripped off.


----------



## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> It's a simple matter of journalistic ethics. He plagiarised other people's work and didn't credit it to them as he should have done. He attributed those made-up quotes to people when they didn't actually say them. He misled the readership. He basically falsified parts of a number of his published pieces and passed them off as journalistic fact.
> 
> One of the worst and most looked down on practices in writing is plagiarism. One of the worst practices in journalism is falsifying parts of a published story. One of the things that journalists are specifically told NOT to do while they're training is exactly what Hari has been caught doing and it isn't simply a one-off error of judgement either. So what does he expect as a response? He knowingly and deliberately played fast and loose with journalistic tradition and best practice and was caught doing it, so he can hardly expect a Pulitzer for doing something that, had it been done by a cub reporter, would have resulted not only in their being immediately fired from wherever they worked, but also would have ruined any chance of a freelance career for the foreseeable future as well.
> 
> ...



OK, this is what he says in response to that. I think it's a fair response.

http://www.johannhari.com/2011/06/29/my-response-to-yesterdays-allegations


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## past caring (Jun 29, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's like that South Korean scientist who claimed to have cloned a dog, once his research got found out to be fraudulent it cast doubt , and a shadow, on everything he had done in his career. EVERYTHING.



Trying to solve the world food shortage?


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Which is entirely as it should be. Everything he's written ought to be scrutinized, and he should offer an apology to everyone whose work he's ripped off.


 
yes.


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## redsquirrel (Jun 29, 2011)

MeltingPot said:
			
		

> OK, this is what he says in response to that. I think it's a fair response.
> 
> http://www.johannhari.com/2011/06/29...ys-allegations


No it's not, it's self-serving bollocks and you are a total mug for buying it.

You going address the Negri issue now or keep skipping around it.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK, this is what he says in response to that. I think it's a fair response.
> 
> http://www.johannhari.com/2011/06/29/my-response-to-yesterdays-allegations


 
How is it not plagiarism when he's "borrowed" the words of fellow journalists without crediting them, much less asking for permission? Come on, this is elementary stuff.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

I bet young Johann (32) can feel the future at his back now. _Never fuck with the autonomists - they always get their man._


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK, this is what he says in response to that. I think it's a fair response.
> 
> http://www.johannhari.com/2011/06/29/my-response-to-yesterdays-allegations


 
Have you looked at the Negri article?

What has happend to your critical reasoning?


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK, this is what he says in response to that. I think it's a fair response.
> 
> http://www.johannhari.com/2011/06/29/my-response-to-yesterdays-allegations


 
I've read that, and I don't have much faith in it if I'm honest. No editor would touch my work with a bargepole if I was exposed as having done what Hari has done, irrespective of whether or not there was a shitstorm about my having done it. When an editor accepts your work then they trust your credibility and ethics and risk the credibility of their own publication if you're then caught committing what remains a cardinal sin for journalists at any level. I don't see why Hari should be given a free pass when he's been caught doing something that would get many journalists fired and many freelancers effectively blacklisted simply because he's a well-known writer. It doesn't matter whether you're some big-league columnist or a part-time freelancer, what Hari has done is simply not on and, having been caught blatantly doing it, then he has to accept the resulting flak that goes with it.

He broke the rules, He got caught. He should accept the consequences of his having been caught. And that goes for any reporter at any level, not just Hari.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I_Never fuck with the autonomists - they always get their man._



that should be a t-shirt!


----------



## revol68 (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK.
> 
> Let's see you do better.


 
I would hazard that over 60% of those on urban's politics boards could do far better than that slug Johann Hari, if given some basic journalistic training, a wage and an expenses account with the Independent.

For a start we'd be able to understand (or atleast attempt to) Negri's "Empire" which puts us ahead of Hari who despite a double first from oxford couldn't even grasp the basics.

The fact is that a lot of us on these boards spend more time reading up on our shit than Hari and we also take the time to post our opinion in our own words for free, as opposed to that little slug.

And of course most of us didn't cheerlead the invasion of Iraq.

Hari is a cunt.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> IAnd Hari's better than most journalists out there. A lot better.



You have a point, and it's true that this case isn't really all that egregious.  But he lost all my sympathy, permanently, when he supported the invasion of Iraq.  I don't care how often he apologizes, he's not coming back from that in my estimation.


----------



## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> No it's not, it's self-serving bollocks and you are a total mug for buying it.
> 
> You going address the Negri issue now or keep skipping around it.



Sure. Yes, he should acknowledge Negri if he ripped him off (and apologise). But Hari's writing is aimed at political and other semi-illiterates like me. Negri's isn't.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I bet young Johann (32) can feel the future at his back now. _Never fuck with the autonomists - they always get their man._


 
In the spirit of Hari I've taken that for my facebook status.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> Sure. Yes, he should acknowledge Negri if he ripped him off (and apologise). But Hari's writing is aimed at political and other semi-illiterates like me. Negri's isn't.


 
You don't even know what this is about do you?


----------



## strummerville (Jun 29, 2011)

Oh come on, it's making the little twitter tories come all over their keyboards. Go and see Toby toadmeister fuckface or Guido fucking Fawkes or whatever he's called to see them jizzing as they write yet another oh so funny hashtag... Almost every low rent journo has done what Hari's done and the hypocrisy and self righteousness is pathetic from those scumbags. Fucksake Toby Young's made a career out of how he bullshitted and blagged his way through it. Yes he's been naive but this is a witchunt that has been driven by the right wing bloggers 100%.


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## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

No it isn't.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

strummerville said:


> this is a witchunt that has been driven by the right wing bloggers 100%.


 i'd say it's only about 20% right wing bloggers tbh.

hari is well-hated by people from all over the political spectrum.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> Sure. Yes, he should acknowledge Negri if he ripped him off (and apologise). But Hari's writing is aimed at political and other semi-illiterates like me. Negri's isn't.


Fuck, just like your hero you don't have the first clue what we're talking about and can't even be bothered to read up on it. 
You utter bluffing prat.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

also, there's been plenty of flak from people previously sympathetic.

seriously, he's a disgrace. the fact that some other writers are also a disgrace doesn't let him off the hook.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 29, 2011)

strummerville said:


> Oh come on, it's making the little twitter tories come all over their keyboards. Go and see Toby toadmeister fuckface or Guido fucking Fawkes or whatever he's called to see them jizzing as they write yet another oh so funny hashtag... Almost every low rent journo has done what Hari's done and the hypocrisy and self righteousness is pathetic from those scumbags. Fucksake Toby Young's made a career out of how he bullshitted and blagged his way through it. Yes he's been naive but this is a witchunt that has been driven by the right wing bloggers 100%.


 
This maybe all true but as butchersapron said to me with a wry smile as we shared a coffee and surveyed a now familiar Greek vista of black masks and tear gas, _"They didn't fuck with autonomists__, they always get their man"_


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I bet penny is shitting it right now. I suspect she's next.


 
IIRC, she's already been subject to accusations of falsifying some of her reportage. At the porn SHAFTA Awards, IIRC.

E2A: Yep, she claimed to have had a conversation with porn director Anna Span, who stated quite clearly that she didn't even attend the SHAFTA Awards. It's a tad difficult to have a conversation with someone who isn't even at the same event, I'd have thought.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/03/porn-industry-sex-hannah


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 29, 2011)

...and another one


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> ...and another one


 
It's looking increasingly as though this isn't a one-off or even an occasional lapse for Hari. It seems to me that he considers plagiarism and falsifying reportage to simply be a standard practice. I also notice that a certain Ms Penny seems to be keeping very quiet about the whole affair now that Hari has been forced to admit what he's been doing.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

she said yesterday she didn't condone his interviewing technique (lol), but can everyone leave him alone now 'cause it's getting homophobic.

i must have missed all the homophobic criticisms somehow.


----------



## Meltingpot (Jun 29, 2011)

OK, but just to continue the analogy with Hari;

Suppose there was a journalist who was doing an expose of the porn industry (and the exploitation etc.) and, assuming the allegations against Hari were true, making up imaginary interviews or copying someone else's without proper acknowledgement.

Other journalists out there were printing stories about how wonderful the porn industry was (knowing full well it wasn't the truth), defamatory lies about campaigners against abuses within the porn industry. joke articles about celebrities shagging other celebs and wannabees, etc.

Would you still think it was worth going after the journalist who was at least trying to report the abuses in the porn industry, as opposed to the others who weren't even trying to provide a fair and accurate picture?

That's all I'm saying here.

Redsquirrel; you're right, I haven't read the Negri article. Maybe I'll get round to it.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 29, 2011)

read it then because otherwise you won't really know what the whole thing is about.


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

killer b said:


> she said yesterday she didn't condone his interviewing technique (lol), but can everyone leave him alone now 'cause it's getting homophobic.
> 
> i must have missed all the homophobic criticisms somehow.


 
To be fair, I'm not sure whether her silence on the subject today is down to her knowing that Hari has been nailed bang to rights (and so she's trying to avoid any guit by association) or simply because of the amount of ridicule she attracted by making accusations of (seemingly non-existent) homophobia.


----------



## killer b (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> assuming the allegations against Hari were true


 
they aren't actually allegations are they? that suggests there's some doubt that he did it.


----------



## revol68 (Jun 29, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> IIRC, she's already been subject to accusations of falsifying some of her reportage. At the porn SHAFTA Awards, IIRC.
> 
> E2A: Yep, she claimed to have had a conversation with porn director Anna Span, who stated quite clearly that she didn't even attend the SHAFTA Awards. It's a tad difficult to have a conversation with someone who isn't even at the same event, I'd have thought.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/laurie-penny/2011/03/porn-industry-sex-hannah



I think she has kept that one ambiguous enough, as part of the piece we will naturally assume it was something said in conversation at the awards but she cleverly not stated it, rather she just reports that Anna Span says such and such. It's dishonest but it's not up there with Hari who fashioned self aggrandising scenarios in which the plagiarised responses were inserted.


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 29, 2011)

Meltingpot said:


> OK, but just to continue the analogy with Hari;
> 
> Suppose there was a journalist who was doing an expose of the porn industry (and the exploitation etc.) and, assuming the allegations against Hari were true, making up imaginary interviews or copying someone else's without proper acknowledgement.
> 
> ...


 
I'm even handed on the subject of plagiarists and liars, personally. I don't care whether they're left wing, centrist, right wing, whatever. Taking other people's work and passing it off as your own is plagiarism. Falsifying reportage (such as claiming to have had a conversation with someone who wasn't even at the same event, for example) is nothing short of outright lying. Anyone who engages in those practices and then claims credibility as a reporter, or even claims to actually BE a proper reporter, is also full of shit as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## Fruitloop (Jun 29, 2011)

revol68 said:


> I think she has kept that one ambiguous enough, as part of the piece we will naturally assume it was something said in conversation at the awards but she cleverly not stated it, rather she just reports that Anna Span says such and such. It's dishonest but it's not up there with Hari who fashioned self aggrandising scenarios in which the plagiarised responses were inserted.


 
That's the thing isn't it. It would be easy enough to say 'So and so says that' and neglect to mention that they said that somewhere else, perhaps with the excuse of brevity. But Hari goes much further and juxtaposes (dubious) details about the interview with the purloined quotes, in a way that seems to be deliberately designed to deceive.

Plenty of journalists get around the problem of spoken vs written words without deception - 'With an audible sigh, Mr X returns to the theme he espoused in his book _All about me_, that [begin quotes] blah blah blah'. It ain't rocket science.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jun 29, 2011)

There's one basic issue here. Why is there any possibility of Hari writing falsehoods in a major national newspaper and still having a job? The answer, of course, being that currently no British newspaper gives a toss about whether their journalists write facts or fiction so long as they sell papers and promote the views of the newspaper owner.


----------



## lazyhack (Jun 29, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> There's one basic issue here. Why is there any possibility of Hari writing falsehoods in a major national newspaper and still having a job? The answer, of course, being that currently no British newspaper gives a toss about whether their journalists write facts or fiction so long as they sell papers and promote the views of the newspaper owner.


 
A lot of other papers would have fired him the second the charges broke, or asked him to do the right thing. In the states its a much more serious offence to fuck about with quotes, hence Washington Post etc picking up on this. According to an Italian colleague you can potentially be jailed in many European countries for messing about with quotes. 

If he has to hand back his Orwell Prize then I can't see how he can hold onto his position - http://mediastandardstrust.org/mst-news/media-standards-trust-response-to-johann-hari-allegations/

As an aside - if you take a look at his claims he bucked a neo-nazi from the Groaner in 2002 and compare it to his article from the Indy in 2006 the guy (Russ Gustavson) suddenly stops being a nazi and becomes an anti-semitic lefty with a black girlfriend, who he didn't buck. Why would you try bed a neo-nazi and more importantly why would a neo-nazi try to bed Hari?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

Not particularly important today but it takes 10 seconds to post it, so, more, loads more here.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 30, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Why would you try bed a neo-nazi and more importantly why would a neo-nazi try to bed Hari?


 
Hate-fuck, wasn't that the idea? Class pic btw.


----------



## TruXta (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not particularly important today but it takes 10 seconds to post it, so, more, loads more here.


 
You gonna start doing a series on Mel Philips or Delingpole as well?


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 30, 2011)

revol68 said:


> This maybe all true but as butchersapron said to me with a wry smile as we shared a coffee and surveyed a now familiar Greek vista of black masks and tear gas, _"They didn't fuck with autonomists__, they always get their man"_


 
  You looking for an Orwell Prize nomination?


----------



## Bakunin (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not particularly important today but it takes 10 seconds to post it, so, more, loads more here.


 
Well, if any further confirmation were needed that Hari routinely falsifies his copy and routinely steals the work of other writers then then there it is. By any reasonable standards Hari's been proved to be an habitual plagiarist and his professional credibility and integrity (or lack thereof on both counts) have now gone right down the toilet. This will go either one of two ways, IMHO. One is that he's going to end up permanently blacklisted by any half-decent media outlet (I wouldn't be surprised if half the names in his contact book have already jumped ship by now or will as this goes on). The other is that he'll simply drop off the radar until things have blown over, then resurface doing the time-honoured 'I was a naughty boy, but now I've learned my lesson' routine and then try and rebuild from what's left of his career and credibility.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Not particularly important today but it takes 10 seconds to post it, so, more, loads more here.


 
possibly find another source tbh  

"where islam spreads, freedom dies"


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

The site who caught him in this latest slew is undoubtedly shit, but the evidence is there, regardless. It doesn't have to be tied to them. Now that it's public, they're effectively out of the picture. They're now irrelevant as to what hari did or didn't do.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

yeh, you could have picked a better one though !


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

There are no other ones. They found the examples.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

Oh, OK. i'm looking through it now ... lol there's tonnes of it!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

I think that one may end up being particularly damning - it seems almost the entire interview was just taken from her autobiography with him adding in descriptions of her doing something physical jusat before inserting the thievery in order to make it look like they came from the interview - a trick common to nearly all of these exposes


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I think that one may end up being particularly damning - it seems almost the entire interview was just taken from her autobiography with him adding in descriptions of her doing something physical jusat before inserting the thievery in order to make it look like they came from the interview - a trick common to nearly all of these exposes


 
Any more? I wonder why it took him so long to get found out! (although someone said something about it in 2003 iirc?)


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> This will go either one of two ways, IMHO. One is that he's going to end up permanently blacklisted by any half-decent media outlet (I wouldn't be surprised if half the names in his contact book have already jumped ship by now or will as this goes on). The other is that he'll simply drop off the radar until things have blown over, then resurface doing the time-honoured 'I was a naughty boy, but now I've learned my lesson' routine and then try and rebuild from what's left of his career and credibility.



I doubt that.  I think everyone's making more of this than it really is.  I think he'll carry on as usual.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Any more? I wonder why it took him so long to get found out! (although someone said something about it in 2003 iirc?)


 
Because people in general  didn't know and those who did know (professionally) either did it too or don't care. There was something wrong with that Negri interview that stuck in my craw, stuck in revols, stuck in gawrodgers and others for 7 years plus , there was something very wrong with it (beyond it's shitness i mean), DSG somehow found out what it was. No idea if it was lucky co-incidental reading or what.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

And the people who did complain never got their letter printed it seems ...


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 30, 2011)

I'm surprised more isn't being made of the material in Private Eye's Hackwatch.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> I'm surprised more isn't being made of the material in Private Eye's Hackwatch.


 
Yes, and most of that was _before_ the Negi interview.  Here i.e his bullshit lies about the death of Carlo Giuliani 



> (2) In an article on the death of Carlo Giuliani at the G8 summit in Genoa, Hari wrote that "when I saw the scene, I couldn't beleive so much blood had poured from just one body." Private Eye disputed that he was on the scene. "As several witnesses can attest, Hari wasn't there, having hailed a taxi to escape the scene some time before Giuliani was killed," the Hackwatch column stated.


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

that's sick to lie about someone's death like that.


----------



## phildwyer (Jun 30, 2011)

His editor's backed him.  His editor's no fool.  He's in the clear as far as I can see.


----------



## Athos (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, and most of that was _before_ the Negi interview.  Here i.e his bullshit lies about the death of Carlo Giuliani


 
That really is low.


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 30, 2011)

Wheras the claims that he made up a history of recreational drug use just makes him seem infantile.


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## frogwoman (Jun 30, 2011)

> In an article entitled "Sleeping with the Enemy", the subtitle reads "Most gay men either confront homophobic neo-Nazis and Islamists, or avoid them. But not Johann Hari – he seduced them instead". He described this as a "victory for gay rights." [23]


----------



## eoin_k (Jun 30, 2011)

The Orwell Prize council have begun an investigation....


----------



## Refused as fuck (Jun 30, 2011)

Yay!


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 30, 2011)

_Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. _


----------



## Athos (Jun 30, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Wheras the claims that he made up a history of recreational drug use just makes him seem infantile.


 
It all adds up to show him to be a dishonest, self-regarding prick.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 30, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _Get them in the crosshairs and take them down. _


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 1, 2011)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand Simon Kelner appears to have been given the boot from the Indy ...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

Lebdevor whatever his name is was talking about using him as the public face of his new shit hot anti-corruption unit last week.

Times up hari.


----------



## Sgt Howie (Jul 1, 2011)

New editor for the Indy. An easy way to make an immediate impact would be to sack Hari on his first day.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2011)

lol. he must be shitting himself.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 1, 2011)

I can see the vultures circling over the rotting corpse of Hari's media career, now that his protector Kelman is out of the picture. A new boss often likes to make an impact early, and firing Hari would be handy way to let all the Indy's hacks know that there's a new boss who isn't afraid to go scalphunting while at the same time restoring the Indy's credibility by making an example of a now thoroughly discredited hack.

Lebedev is unlikely to want it to look like he personally is interfering in the day to day running of the Indy, so bringing in a new boss as his personal hatchet man and dressing Hari's seemingly imminent sacking as a purely editorial decision is what springs to mind here.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2011)

no-one could see the timing of this and not assume hari's on his way in the next day or so, surely?


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 1, 2011)

killer b said:


> no-one could see the timing of this and not assume hari's on his way in the next day or so, surely?


 
They'd be pretty naive if they did, IMHO. I don't see how Hari can stay as his credibility is thoroughly shot through now, and the Indy's credibility won't be looking so great if they continue to employ a hack who's also a proven plagiarist who falsifies his copy on a regular and long term basis. Hari has to go for the good of the Indy's reputation, so the new editor can impose his authority over the rest of the newsroom and because he's a proven plagiarist and faker.

IMHO, it's a case of whether or not Hari gets the elbow, but where he goes from here. As I've said already, any decent media outlet will treat him like a leper, I'd be very surprised if his fellow hacks don't start distancing themselves from him (assuming they haven't started already) and to me it's simply a matter of whether or not he continues scrabbling a living as a freelancer or waits until the fuss has died down before doing the time honoured 'I've been a naughty boy, but I'm now thoroughly penitent and have learned my lesson' routine a few months down the line when things have simmered down for him.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 1, 2011)

Al Jazeera?


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 1, 2011)

Thinktank/research work I reckon. With the possible addition of a book at some future point. Then freelance columnist work off the back of the book, and back into the commentariat that way.
Alternatively/additionally, telly stuff - probably a documentary about summat with a good lefty pedigree.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 1, 2011)

Could be, t_t.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Al Jazeera?


 
macdonalds.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

Not sure he's clever enough for research stuff. I don't think much will change - the same circle will employ him one way or another. He'll bang out a lightweight journalist book at some point either way.

He reminds me of that hair killer bloke.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 1, 2011)

With the more political thinktanks and research-y places, intelligence is definitely second to personal politics. But yeah, he might still lack the intellectual rigour to produce that kind of stuff. Maybe more like lending his name to somewhere like the IPPR as a headliner? Get some cheap recent graduates to do the actual legwork.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 1, 2011)

@ BA  Who?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

TruXta said:


> @ BA  Who?



Danilo Restivo. Seeing Deborah Orr on newsnight mothering him though the telly reminds me of the relationships this freak sought to build up and use.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Jul 1, 2011)

I've written and sent him a resignation letter, he's bound to take the bait.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Maybe more like lending his name to somewhere like the IPPR as a headliner?


 
why would they want him?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

That's thing, his name on serious research - not what you want.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's thing, his name on serious research - not what you want.


 
I dunno, maybe he'd learn a thing or two.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 1, 2011)

Serious research, yes. Headline-grabbing pseudoresearch (of which there is a lot these days), if it helps with the donors, then possibly. It comes down to the question of whether he'd still have enough pull among the Islingtonistas to make it worthwhile for some organisation or other to give him a go. I don't know about that. He has a few defenders knocking around, though, so despite the parody he's getting online, his name isn't completely mud yet, it seems. 
Partly depends if he's outright sacked, or quietly 'agrees to move on' once things have died down in a few weeks. If the latter, he'll have much greater 'pull' factor.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

Even them though surely don't want him near them? It's not like he's a publicly known an well liked person who can get away with it. You might as well put a picture of a turd on your pseudo-research.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 1, 2011)

Barking_Mad said:


> I've written and sent him a resignation letter, he's bound to take the bait.


----------



## killer b (Jul 1, 2011)

he's demonstrably dishonest, and has been exposed very pubically. no-one would want his name on their research.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 1, 2011)

Well, that's me told.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

He's always going to be linked to this stuff though. Hugh trevor roper was a really good historian, wrote some of the most important immediate post-war stuff on nazi germany, mostly remembered for authenticating the hitler diaries today...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

More.

(They got him first eoin)


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> More.
> 
> (They got him first eoin)


 
Well, that should be the final nail in the coffin of Hari's media career. Bad enough that he's been caught out a few days ago for rampant dishonesty, but he's been caught before and seemingly not learned a thing from the experience. Time for him to board the cart of career failure and begin the long and lonely ride to the Tyburn Tree of outright professional oblivion IMHO.


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> More.
> 
> (They got him first eoin)


 
Yeah, but that's just homophobia.


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 1, 2011)

Ooh, look what I've found. Here's a piece in which Hari lifts no less than 42 quotes from an interviewee's book then bowdlerises them and passes them off as his own. Who'd have thought it? Still, it's an impresive feat to cram that vast an amount of plagiarism into a single piece, if nothing else.

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-walters/2011/06/afghanistan-joya-women


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

42 eh. In one interview.



> Nearly half of the entire piece consists of words that Joya used in the book. And, just to hammer this home - nearly every quote supposedly given to Hari was in fact taken from the book.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 1, 2011)

Sgt Howie said:


> New editor for the Indy. An easy way to make an immediate impact would be to sack Hari on his first day.


 
Oh great. Editor steps down amid a fuss about a dishonest and plagiarising columnist, and they replace him with somebody from the Evening Bloody Standard. That's really going to inspire confidence. It's like sacking a restaurants's chef because some of his staff have simply reheated packet meals, and then replacing him with a branch manager from Macdonalds.


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> Ooh, look what I've found. Here's a piece in which Hari lifts no less than 42 quotes from an interviewee's book then bowdlerises them and passes them off as his own. Who'd have thought it? Still, it's an impresive feat to cram that vast an amount of plagiarism into a single piece, if nothing else.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-walters/2011/06/afghanistan-joya-women


 
Just trying to make it clearer for the reader, apparently. You know, more like what the author meant. Though that doesn't explain why he chose to alter them slightly, does it. Hmmmmmm.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

Private school-->oxbridge. Thanks. You've proven our point johann.


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

By his method, I could produce a great interview with Jesus, or Napoleon, or Gandhi, or... well, anyone really.


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Private school-->oxbridge. Thanks. You've proven our point johann.


 
Sadly, that does mean that he'll have the social capital to bounce back from this.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

Bit he was _from a single mum council estate_ - not anymore. He'll be safe.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 1, 2011)

i wouldn't have thought he'd bounce back from this - not immediately, anyway.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

He's got 20 years of writing shit left. All his mate are on the papers...


----------



## Bakunin (Jul 1, 2011)

Athos said:


> By his method, I could produce a great interview with Jesus, out Napoleon, or Gandhi, or... well, anyone really.


 
True, I was discussing this last night during one of my many sojourns in the lowermost circles of Hell. Mussolini, himself a former journalist, commented on how standards are clearly slipping in the modern media, while Stalin commented on how the manipulation of the masses was so much easier in the pre-internet age. The Devil's chief of PR, a German gentleman named Goebbels, expressed surprise at someone having an even more flagrant disregard for the truth than he himself possessed during his heyday and, as we sat on the patio of the Hotel Inferno, surveying the endless and eternal fires of damnation while listening to the perpetual screams of the tortured souls of the damned and doomed, Richard Nixon happened to drop by, fixed me with a steely yet shifty glare, grasped me firmly by the shoulder and said:

'Hari may be a pinko Commie subversive. But he's MY KIND of pinko Commie subversive. When he gets down here tell him to give me a call and I might have a job for him...'


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> i wouldn't have thought he'd bounce back from this - not immediately, anyway.


 
Even if he gets sacked, he'll be in a similar job or better inside a year.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 1, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> True, I was discussing this last night during one of my many sojourns in the lowermost circles of Hell. Mussolini, himself a former journalist, commented on how standards are clearly slipping in the modern media, while Stalin commented on how the manipulation of the masses was so much easier in the pre-internet age. The Devil's chief of PR, a German gentleman named Goebbels, expressed surprise at someone having an even more flagrant disregard for the truth than he himself possessed during his heyday and, as we sat on the patio of the Hotel Inferno, surveying the endless and eternal fires of damnation while listening to the perpetual screams of the tortured souls of the damned and doomed, Richard Nixon happened to drop by, fixed me with a steely yet shifty glare, grasped me firmly by the shoulder and said:
> 
> 'Hari may be a pinko Commie subversive. But he's MY KIND of pinko Commie subversive. When he gets down here tell him to give me a call and I might have a job for him...'


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 1, 2011)

Athos said:


> Even if he gets sacked, he'll be in a similar job or better inside a year.


 
you're prob right, sadly


----------



## Athos (Jul 1, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> you're prob right, sadly


 
Jesus, I feel like LLETSA.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 1, 2011)

_Dirty Hari: I know what you're thinking. Did I only make up six quotes, or only five?_

(Guardian boards)


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> (They got him first eoin)


 
Guido is only a pawn in my game.


----------



## gawkrodger (Jul 1, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _Dirty Hari: I know what you're thinking. Did I only make up six quotes, or only five?_
> 
> (Guardian boards)


 
i laughed


----------



## sihhi (Jul 3, 2011)

I'm pretty sure he just makes up stuff up in his columns Private Eye exposed this about his visit to Iraq in 2002.

He also misquotes like this attack on Tony Benn 



> My great worry is that the history of the great and
> honourable Labour left – the legacy of Aneurin Bevan, Barbra [sic] Castle and Michael Foot – is being blotted out by the memory of Tony Benn and the appalling damage he inflicted on the Labour Party. This part of the Left
> that championed sexual freedom, nuclear disarmament, and the spread of democracy is at risk of being forgotten. The fact that there is now no Labour left worthy of the name is largely due to Benn’s appalling,
> egotistical behaviour in the 1980s, which has discredited the parliamentary left for generations. Benn destructively preferred a Labour Party
> ideologically pure and forever in opposition to the principled compromises that Bevan and Foot rarely shied away from. He even described the 1983 election – in which Foot and Labour were, thanks to Benn, humiliated and crushed – as “a great victory for Socialism,”.



He purposefully does this. He is Oxbridge smart enough to know Benn is talking about improvements in Labour party democracy in the 1980-1983 period. That's what his degree Social and Political Sciences was about - postwar party politics. He got a first 

Back then in July 2003 he was still pro-Iraq war:



> "If nuclear weapons continue not only to exist but to
> proliferate until every mad regime with a million quid
> has a nuke, sooner or later the air of a major city
> like London will be thick with ash and smoke and
> radioactive poisons."


I emailed him once about the Benn misquoting - nothing.

This is his attack on Noam Chomsky



> Just to go back to the markets. He has used the word “bullshit” to describe the idea that markets in any way generate wealth. I believe markets are a tool need to be extremely tightly regulated – markets will have a tendency to do things that are completely unacceptable like abuse workers’ rights or trash the environment, and that’s why you need to have very strict, tight democratic regulations and strong trade unions. But nonetheless, within those regulations and checked strong trade unions, markets do actually do something very important: they generate wealth. Chomsky denies that, and I think, therefore, there is this really big hole in his interpretative framework.
> ..
> I agree there are lots of other reasons why societies become wealthy, but markets are an essential ingredient. Obviously there are market fundamentists like the IMF who take this to an absurd extreme. I thought of a pretty lousy analogy to express this: if you want to make bread, you need yeast. But if you try to eat yeast alone and forget the other ingredients, you only have stinking fungus. The IMF and World Bank are ramming yeast down the throats of the poor – but Chomsky is chucking the yeast in the bin, and saying that nobody who believes in yeast is a defender of the likes of the IMF and World Bank.



He has removed his column from 2001 from his website about how the antiglobalisation movement can lead to massive death.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 4, 2011)

The more stuff of his I read the more offensive it seems. In one article he claimed that the anti-globalisation movement was effectively infiltrated by fascists:


> Democratic socialists like Tony Benn have tried to claim the anti-globalisation activists as soul-mates - but can a movement of Trots, anarchists and, now, fascists really be one we want to associate ourselves with?


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 4, 2011)

Perhaps Meltingpot could come back and explain what exactly it is about the two articles quoted above that make him better than the rest of the hacks.

I mean leaving aside the c&ping ,the articles shihi quotes from are just embarrassingly shit.


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## love detective (Jul 4, 2011)

yeah he's shockingly bad :- 




			
				hari said:
			
		

> markets do actually do something very important: they generate wealth



as you say plaiglarism aside, the fact that he comes out with crap like the above is completely hatstand


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## eoin_k (Jul 4, 2011)

> The anti-globalisation movement has many benign aspirations to enhance participatory democracy and curb corporate power. But it also has some violent and frightening adherents who are capable of the kind of terrorism being visited upon us by Muslim fundamentalists.


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

I don't remember even right wingers claiming the anti globalisation movement was capable of unleashing terrorism like Islamic fundamentalists, they generally just patronised it as silly hippies and leftie rabble rousers. 

Hari is such a little cunt, a snivelling little liberal prick, I've always maintained people like him are far worse than conservatives.


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

How are they worse than conservatives?


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## frogwoman (Jul 4, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> The more stuff of his I read the more offensive it seems. In one article he claimed that the anti-globalisation movement was effectively infiltrated by fascists:


 
to be fair, there were a few ... but hari is no leftist, he really does himself no favours


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## frogwoman (Jul 4, 2011)

TruXta said:


> How are they worse than conservatives?


 
Because, among other things, they help to discredit the left


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## frogwoman (Jul 4, 2011)

people like him are actually INCREDIBLY damaging, and do untold damage to the image, and the crediblity of anyone with ostensibly similar politics. hari actually uses (as we've seen in the negri interview and now his lies about the anti-globalisation movement above) his supposed views as a platform to attack others on the left. he is not on our side.


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

TruXta said:


> How are they worse than conservatives?


 
cos conservatives are more honest, they don't pretend to be radicals, cunts like Hari uphold capitalism by pretending that it can be somehow managed in a manner to alleviate all the bad things, a conservative will generally just say "that's the system, that's life". Wankers like Hari spread bullshit to those people who actually want a change. 

I don't expect you to agree cos you drip of the same shitty wet liberal pseudo leftism as Hari.


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

revol68 said:


> cos conservatives are more honest, they don't pretend to be radicals, cunts like Hari uphold capitalism by pretending that it can be somehow managed in a manner to alleviate all the bad things, a conservative will generally just say "that's the system, that's life". Wankers like Hari spread bullshit to those people who actually want a change.
> 
> I don't expect you to agree cos you drip of the same shitty wet liberal pseudo leftism as Hari.


 
Cheers for that little snipe, revol, just what I expected. I don't care two fucks what you label me as, suffice it to say I'm not against you, but I'm not for you either. Not that it matters to either of us I suspect. And I'm not a leftie, nor am I a liberal, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean these days.


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## killer b (Jul 4, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And I'm not a leftie, nor am I a liberal, whatever the hell that's supposed to mean these days.


 
has the meaning changed recently?


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

killer b said:


> has the meaning changed recently?


 
It seems to me to mean different things to different people. Whatever it is, I don't want any part of it. That should cover all my bases right?


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

Haha way to show people how you aren't a drippy liberal.


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## killer b (Jul 4, 2011)

left, or liberal? or both?


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Haha way to show people how you aren't a drippy liberal.



Is it now?



killer b said:


> left, or liberal? or both?


 
Both. Well, I think I've a slightly better handle on what leftie's supposed to be mean, but revol's "same shitty wet liberal pseudo leftism as Hari" leaves me nonplussed. Methinks he might be talking out of his bumhole. Revol, that is.

I wonder if a new term will come out of this situation, something like Hari-kiri? Suicide by plagiarism?


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

DSG already had the Hari-kiri joke as their headline.

also you are left liberal which is why you don't get Marx, or are you a left liberal because you don't get Marx?


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

Neither. I'm not a left liberal any more than you are a stalinofascist wankfest-proprietor. Hang on.....


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

the fact you describe my politics as some sort of "totalitarian" smash up of Stalinism and Fascism is only cementing your left liberal credentials, it's pretty much the position Hari has on Negri and most likely anyone with an actual class analysis.

now overlooking the truth value of either of us's politics, you share the politics of Hari.


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

I was making a joke, stop taking yourself so seriously ffs. And how do I share the politics of Hari?


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

sorry I didn't get the joke because it didn't really stand out as one against your posting history.


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

Well, consider yourself notified. You didn't answer my question tho. In what respects are my politics those of Hari's?


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

the wishy washy uncommitted I'm kind of a leftie but not really, oh I'm such a delicate little unique snow flake that I can't be labelled.

also you don't get Marx and your line of argument over CBT was dripping in liberal individualism.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2011)

More: Johann on Che: Hari even fabricates other people’s interviews


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh, that's certainly put me in my place. Your line of argument only showed that you know nothing of worth about CBT or indeed psychological and psychiatric therapies. We can always go back to the thread if you want more, as this is hardly the place for it.


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

like I said it wasn't the defence of CBT per se, certainly there can be a place for such things for individuals in need of short term relief, same goes for anti depressants, it was your inability to grasp how peoples critique of CBT as individualist and crudely instrumentalist was a social critique and not a individualist moral one.


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

revol68 said:


> like I said it wasn't the defence of CBT per se, certainly there can be a place for such things for individuals in need of short term relief, same goes for anti depressants, it was your inability to grasp how peoples critique of CBT as individualist and crudely instrumentalist was a social critique and not a individualist moral one.


 
Disagreeing isn't an inability to grasp whatever feeble point was made. Anyway, take it to the relevant thread if you wanna continue that line.


----------



## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

a feeble point shared by a great deal of critical psychologists and which is quite a pertinent issue as the medicalisation and pathologising of more and more people continues to rise as an attempt to avoid dealing with the root cause of so much despair, hopelessness and alienation?


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## TruXta (Jul 4, 2011)

Which part of taking it to the relevant thread was unclear? Besides, I've not got time for this now. Later.


----------



## Streathamite (Jul 4, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> And kick him around was an allusion to Nixon's moaning after losing the the presidential election.


ummm...I hate to be pedantic, but tricky said this after losing the '62 California gubernatorial election. [\pedant mode off]


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## pk (Jul 4, 2011)

He could have saved himself this shit by referencing the source of the quote, silly man.

Comes across as a cunt on the telly whenever he's wheeled out for an opinion on Newsnight or whatever.

And he does have something of the lardy kd lang fan about him ...


----------



## Streathamite (Jul 4, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Oh great. Editor steps down amid a fuss about a dishonest and plagiarising columnist, and they replace him with somebody from the Evening Bloody Standard. That's really going to inspire confidence. It's like sacking a restaurants's chef because some of his staff have simply reheated packet meals, and then replacing him with a branch manager from Macdonalds.


tbf, blackhurst is an old _Indy_ man, and his column in the _Standard_ is just about the most respectable part of the paper


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## Bakunin (Jul 4, 2011)

Oh dear. Naughty, naughty, Mr. Hari. He claims to loathe the Daily Heil, yet at the same time he can't resist 'borrowing' a rather sizeable quantity of copy from the Heil to spice up his own work:

http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-walters/2011/07/ann-leslie-india-hari-british

A liar, a plagiarist and a hypocrite. A truly sterling example of the most honourable, ethical, finest attributes of British journalism.


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## butchersapron (Jul 4, 2011)

There's _two lots_ of it in that as (iirc) he used quotes from Leslie's autobiography and pretended they were part of the interview, as well as lifting stuff from her article in the Mail 7 years previous:



> Last week, I showed you how Mr Hari appeared to have lifted 42 quotes from Malalai Joya's memoir for his supposed interview with her. What follows is another interview by Johann Hari that features a number of quotes lifted from another source. This one is a good 'un, because the interviewee is none other than Ann Leslie of the Daily Mail - a newspaper that Mr Hari states is "the enemy of everything - literally everything - I believe." It would appear that Mr Hari's hatred for the Daily Mail does not make him averse to lifting several hundred words for his Ann Leslie interview from a piece that appeared in August 1997 in the, er, Daily Mail.
> 
> This was an enormous piece - some 4000 words - and the beginning largely dealt with Ann Leslie's traumatic childhood in India. Readers of the Independent in 2004 would have been impressed by the revelations that Hari appeared to have elicited from Dame Ann. Of course, had they known that much of what they were reading had appeared in the Daily Mail some seven years before, they might have been less than impressed.


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## revol68 (Jul 4, 2011)

Has he done any legit interviews? How on earth has the little shit got away with this crap for soo long, even after complaints from Chomsky and Negri, though I suppose the rags are going to put the reputation of their little middle brow liberal columnist above the concerns of actual left wing intellectuals.

The worst part is that it isn't the plagiarism that was so shocking awful in his Negri piece but the pride the little cunt took in _Empire_ going so over his head and rather than being a source of embarrassment to someone with a double First from an Oxbridge College, it was used as a stick to beat Negri.


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## Streathamite (Jul 4, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> Oh dear. Naughty, naughty, Mr. Hari. He claims to loathe the Daily Heil, yet at the same time he can't resist 'borrowing' a rather sizeable quantity of copy from the Heil to spice up his own work:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-walters/2011/07/ann-leslie-india-hari-british
> 
> A liar, a plagiarist and a hypocrite. A truly sterling example of the most honourable, ethical, finest attributes of British journalism.


oh fucking hell, this is just getting beyond ridiculous now.
If blackhurst keeps him on, he'll have made the worst start possible as Editor


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2011)

Bakunin said:


> Oh dear. Naughty, naughty, Mr. Hari. He claims to loathe the Daily Heil, yet at the same time he can't resist 'borrowing' a rather sizeable quantity of copy from the Heil to spice up his own work:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/guy-walters/2011/07/ann-leslie-india-hari-british
> 
> A liar, a plagiarist and a hypocrite. A truly sterling example of the most honourable, ethical, finest attributes of British journalism.



You cannot hope to bribe or twist, 

Thank god, the British journalist.

But seeing what the man will do,

Unbribed, there's no occasion to.


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## frogwoman (Jul 4, 2011)

> "
> 
> Ann Leslie's article in the Daily Mail, 1997:
> 
> ...



bloody hell that's particularly shameless. 

Has he actually done any real interviews?


----------



## sihhi (Jul 4, 2011)

2003 column "Another country that wants a US invasion"  had a lie exchange with Noam Chomsky



> the brave and often inspirational African liberation movements from the 1950s to 70s called simply for Africans to be given their own space to develop freely. But the result of this approach, where it has been tried, has, alas, also been a disaster. Liberia, abandoned by America since the end of the Cold War, has sunk ever deeper in blood and psychosis.
> 
> There is, however, another way. It is described by Michael Ignatieff, the theorist of the Kosovo war and of humanitarian intervention, as "imperialism lite". This model requires rich countries (and not just the West: in comparative terms, South Africa, for example, is rich) to intervene in failed states, so long as the people in that state clearly want us, in order to ensure stability and a transition towards a more liberal democratic system.
> 
> The best possible example of this "imperialism lite" was carried out by our own government... The success of that country is now a standing retort to cynics like my historian friend. *Even Noam Chomsky, the chief critic of American and British foreign policy, told me at a New Statesman lunch that he thought Sierra Leone was "perhaps" the one genuine example of a humanitarian intervention - but, he added, "that's probably because I haven't looked into it properly."*



Chomsky's response:


> "I have no idea whether I met him at the lunch, but *I certainly didn't 'admit' anything of the sort.  Rather, I stated that Britain in Sierra Leone might be an authentic example of humanitarian intervention. And there was no 'although';* another flight of the Hari imagination.  Rather, I stated that I hadn't looked into it more closely.  The reasons are not his silly inventions -- which tell us a lot about him; more below -- but rather a moral truism, that I *have repeated to the point of boredom, and did again at the lunch: a person is responsible for the anticipated consequences of his or her own acts, and if capable if comprehending moral truisms, will therefore focus finite energy and attention on them -- +focus+, which does not mean, as the subservient intellectuals like to pretend, keep to them exclusively.*
> ...
> Those who do understand moral truisms and elementary facts will understand at once why, in a life with finite time and energy, I wouldn't undertake the kind of research project about Britain in Sierra Leone than I do about issues for which I share responsibility, which I can influence, and which therefore should take priority.  That would be true even if I had not again explained the obvious, in monosyllables, at that lunch.  The fact that he would* resort to these idiotic fabrications* tells us a lot about him; even more, perhaps, than his apparent utter inability to comprehend moral truisms." (Email to Media Lens, November 29, 2003)



Another dodgy Iraq interview from 2003. Who speaks like this in these quotes?



> The IPO will be starting a campaign calling for a mass movement across Britain and America that does not call simplistically for immediate withdrawal from Iraq, but instead urges the coalition to begin a steady transition to democracy, alongside the cancellation of all Iraqi debt. This will be launched in opposition to the End The Occupation rally on September 27 being organised by a coalition of Trotskyite and Islamic fundamentalist organisations. Yasser describes the demonstrations as "totally unhelpful. If the occupation did end tomorrow, _*Iraqis would be traumatised and appalled."*_ For information about the IPO campaign, see www.iprospect.org.uk.
> 
> Yasser adds: *"There's something I'd like to say to your readers. People who really care about Iraqis should join us in fighting for democracy in Iraq and for the debts accumulated by Saddam to be cancelled. Join Jubilee Iraq * [a group campaigning against Saddam's debt, conctactable at www.jubileeiraq.org]. *Argue for the Governing Council to be strengthened. Support us. Don't spend your time hoping that Iraq fails just so you feel better about opposing the war."*
> 
> He is holding Sama's hand. They smile. Suddenly, I have a strong sense that they – and perhaps Iraq – are going to be OK.



Incidentally the IPO was a media PR exercise to sell the war to Western public http://www.iprospect.org.uk/media.php

Children of Western-minded middle-class Iraqi exile families (not a criticism of them) don't berate Westerners by adding things like "just so you feel better about opposing the war".


I am also suspicious of Hari's 2008 column "Yes, for welfare you must be made to work"  about his friend Andy.

a. It's an open invitation to ruin a friendship by naming a friend in public as a dirty sponger, so why call him "my best friend from school".
b. A "best from school" ... you doss about aged 16, you go back to school, cambridge, edit the uni newspaper, write a prizewinning play staged at the edinburgh festival 2001 "I've been coming to Edinburgh for five years", then become a frontpage pictured columnist in the new statesman and indie ... after his 15 years of total unemployment until aged 31 you mention him to make sure left-wing people support cuts in welfare.



> If you want a parable of this lost potential, look at my best friend from school, Andy. When we were teenagers, we would skive off together and hang about in the Trocodero centre, playing arcade games and smoking spliffs in the toilets. After our GCSEs, we dropped out. For a year we mooched around London, watching old films, playing video games, and – as all teenage boys do – moodily hating the world.
> 
> But at the end of that year, some impulse, some need, made me go back to do my A-levels, while *Andy stayed in his house and mooched some more*. He went onto benefits – and, with a few brief swings around the New Deal, he has never come off; not in the 15 years since. He is clever and funny and he could be making an amazing contribution, but inactivity is infectious. Once you sink into it, it consumes you. The muscles of work soon atrophy; you become convinced you can't do anything. With each year that passed, he saw the world of work as more alien. Andy has reacted to his worklessness with listless depression; lots of other young men respond with aggression.
> 
> Andy is hardly a lone anecdote. There are more than a million young "Neets" – Not in education, employment or training – in Britain today. We have a higher proportion than any other OECD country. Go to the place where I was born – Glasgow East, site of the potentially Brown-busting by-election this Thursday – and you will see them spreading before you in great concrete estates of poverty. *You can taste the ennui in the air.* Ask the kids what they want to do when they grow up and they shrug with heartbreaking indifference and say, "Dunno".



This event from Finsbury Park Mosque bookshop from a 2001 interview with Abu Hamza also sounds like bullshit:



> As I browse in the mosque bookshop after the interview - deliberating whether to buy the video Jihad Combat Tips: for the armed and unarmed - a man in his early twenties rushes in. Not noticing me, in a state of extreme tension, he says to the three other blokes there: "The halal butcher was punched in the face this morning by a kaffir." "Where?" somebody asks, with perhaps a hint of scepticism in his voice. "Here!" he responds with irritation. "Everywhere! For years Sheikh Hamza has said we need to arm ourselves. He said we can't trust anyone. We didn't listen. Now we have to listen . . . We have to take out the bastard kaffirs before they take us out. I'm telling you, this is war."



Most Islamists rarely, if ever, swear, it's seen as a taboo. Usually they use kafir and munafik nothing else.

I call bullshit on this graffiti from Genoa too October 2001 Young, educated - and dangerous? "Anti-globalisation and al Qua'ida".



> The day after the destruction of the World Trade Center, the great symbol of global capitalism, graffiti appeared in Genoa. Next to a red star - the symbol of the most hard-core anti-globalisation groups - protesters had sprayed the words "Fly Osama Airlines".



In Genoa in Italy the only comprehensible word would be Osama. 
The Italian phrases are nothing 'fly' or 'airlines'.

P.S. Who on earth thinks a red star is for hardcore antiglobalisation?
The Brigate Garibaldi (Communist partisans in ww2) used the Italian flag with a red star in the middle. It means communism. 
If the graffiti was there in Genoa, the chances of it being a neofascist provocation and telling us nothing about the antiglobalisation movement are quite high.


The wisdom of Johann Hari

criticising an SDPer for criticising New Labour too much

"[Ex-Labour, founder of the SDP] David Marquand takes an excessively critical view on this change [New Labour abandoning demand-led policies], and argues that in the economic domain, New Labour is "egalitarian only in the sense that it wishes to give more people the opportunity to be unequal."

"The last thing Iraqis want is for British and American troops to leave now" 

"Blair should come out and tell the truth: He is a progressive politician" 

"Almost any discussion of paedophilia in Britain degenerates into expressions of the paediatrician-bashing mob mentality that has swept across this country for the past few years."


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## sihhi (Jul 4, 2011)

The October 2001 article "Anti-globalisation and al Qua'ida" 
was actually called 

"Young, educated - and dangerous?
Johann Hari Published 01 October 2001 

War on Terror: Anti-Globalisation Movement - Amid website ramblings, a proposal for an alliance: between fundamentalists and anti-capitalists. Johann Hari finds affinities between the two movements"

See here http://www.newstatesman.com/200110010016.htm

features this analysis of u75 way before i was a user:



> The terrorist attacks have forced the campaigners to ask themselves how far they would be prepared to go. In the aftermath, chatroom users excitedly discussed whether "we" might have been responsible. Some were horrified at the prospect, but others were more positive. One writer, on the anti-globalisation site urban75.org, said: "There has been much talk of terrorist organisations pulling together . . . Could this shift from military to economic targets herald a new era of co-operation between radical groups of completely different ideologies? By this I mean religious fundamentalist and anti-capitalist factions."





> The anti-globalisation movement has many benign aspirations to enhance participatory democracy and curb corporate power. But it also has some violent and frightening adherents who are capable of the kind of terrorism being visited upon us by Muslim fundamentalists.


----------



## killer b (Jul 4, 2011)

he's been lifting stuff off urban? that's glorious...


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## sihhi (Jul 4, 2011)

He repeatedly just misquotes people like this from a review of Tariq Ali's Bush in Babylon

http://johannhari.com/2003/11/22/-b...-ali-and-hegemony-or-survival-by-noam-chomsky



> In Bush in Babylon, he is trying to make the new Iraqi beat fit his old 1960s anti-imperialist tune, and the result is painful to hear. His ideological contortions have *twisted his internationalism *beyond all recognition. He says that the charities and NGOs such as the Red Cross are "like aliens from another planet", that will "descend on Iraq like a swarm of locusts and interbreed with the locals".* Interbreeding will never do.*



What Tariq Ali actually says is about the effect of private capital [charities, trusts, Soros etc] on Iraqi civil society ie its privatisation:



> If a referendum on this question alone were permitted, over 90 percent of the population would vote for Iraqi control of Iraqi oil. But this is imperialism in the epoch of neo-liberal economics. Everything will be _privatised_, including _civil society. Like aliens from another planet, once the cities are secured (if that ever happens), NGOs will descend on Iraq like a swarm of locusts and interbreed with the locals_. Intellectuals and activists of every stripe in all the major cities will be bought off and put to work producing bad pamphlets on subjects of purely academic interest. This has the effect of neutering potential opposition or, to be more precise, of confiscating dissent in order to channel it in a safe direction. The message from the donors is straightforward: make some noise, by all means, but if you do anything really political that seriously affects the functioning of the neo-liberal state on any level, your funds might not be renewed. And, as usually happens, participation in serious politics is likely to be forbidden. This is then characterised as _'civil society' or 'real grass-roots democracy', cleaner and more user-friendly than any political party._ Users may be limited, but the NGO salaries from the West are there to ensure that this remains the case. Some NGOs do buck the trend and are involved in serious projects, but these are an exception. Long-term experiments in Egypt and Pakistan have produced reasonable results. The main problem in both places is that religious groups have seized the day, filled the vacuum, and argued against consumerism as the dominant value in contemporary societies. There is no effective secular opposition in either country, both of which are presided over by military dictators.



It has nothing to with opposing "interbreeding", it's about stopping Western-money ruining democracy in Iraqi civil society.


----------



## gosub (Jul 5, 2011)

While further nailing Mr Hari into a coffin of ghost written autobiographies is worthy, has anybody checked the scribblings of those immediately who leapt to his defense? Wonder how wide spread it was?


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## eoin_k (Jul 7, 2011)

He has demonstrated some brass neck in the last couple of days by particpating in a panel discussion on free speech:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/media/press/tabloid-tactics-are-a-threat-to-free-speech-says-independent-chief-2307523.html


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## audiotech (Jul 7, 2011)

For an article, published in Indian newspaper, _The Statesman_, in the tradition accorded to the principles of India secularism, Johann Hari states: "Just afterwards three thousand Muslim fundamentalists rioted outside their offices calling for me, the editor and the publisher to be arrested, or killed.... Believe me, that puts a twitter hash-tag into context."



Well done Mr Hari.


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2011)

Hari, apart from praying to god for this murdoch shit to save him, has been maliciously editing wikipedia articles of journalists who've criticised him. Not since this shit kicked off, but from long before. According to this piece from the almost equally odious Nick Cohen.


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## frogwoman (Jul 8, 2011)

Lol yeah he must be thanking the lord that this has come at this time ...


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2011)

'praying to god'?

Source?


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2011)

You're not one who should be piping up on this thread are you really?


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2011)

Oh I forgot, you check all my posts, annoy you and should be shot.


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2011)

Don't post other people's stuff as your own and you won't be.


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2011)

Academically and literally pure.


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## butchersapron (Jul 8, 2011)

Don't get caught. What drives people like you to do it?


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## audiotech (Jul 8, 2011)

Eye problems mainly to do with a syndrome: "Can't see, can't wee, can't climb a tree."

Sorry don't have a source for that.


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## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2011)

Fresh from the hari changing peoples wiki expose, there's more to come as today regards this article: Johann Hari: How multiculturalism is betraying women


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## frogwoman (Jul 9, 2011)

Ugh. More plagiarism shit or something else? 

Has he written anything that ISN'T plagiarised?


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## Mrs Magpie (Jul 9, 2011)

Don't know whether this has been posted yet (search can't tell me and I'm about to go out).

http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2011/07/another-journalist-associated-with.html


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## killer b (Jul 9, 2011)

it's a pathetic defense tbh mrs m.


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## JHE (Jul 9, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Don't know whether this has been posted yet (search can't tell me and I'm about to go out).
> 
> http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2011/07/another-journalist-associated-with.html



Yes, some of Orwell's most interesting books - Homage to Catalonia, Down and Out in Paris and London, Road to Wigan Pier - were _fictionalised_ accounts of his experience.  This was made clear in Crick's biography of Orwell. (In the same book Orwell came across as a less nice person than I had imagined.  He was a bit of an ingrate to the people who helped and accommodated him.)

I can't see much similarity with Hari's rather dishonest write-ups of his interviews.


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## frogwoman (Jul 9, 2011)

killer b said:


> it's a pathetic defense tbh mrs m.


 
yep. got to agree with this.


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## Riklet (Jul 9, 2011)

So has the odious shitbag clung on then? Nice connections.... someone's pulled a string or three...

I would recommend anyone who hasn't read all of this thread to go back and read Melting Pot's anger at the Hari-Hatred for some epic lols.  Hari is a total saint because of _that thing he did in Africa or what-ever_ despite lying, plagiarising, bullshitting and faux-apologising ('I admit where i'm wrong' la la la).  Yeah ok! His kind of imagino-persuasive storytelling journalism is a fucking blight, although not sure if he can really be seen as a bigger 'threat' than more reactionary right-wing media types.  Either way they are baying for his blood now too...


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Jul 9, 2011)

killer b said:


> it's a pathetic defense tbh mrs m.


Eh? I am not Jack of Kent. I just thought it was interesting and quite funny. Blimey, you are a po-faced bunch. I am not doing any sort of defence of Hari (for a start I think I've only read two or three pieces of his, ever) Where do I say I agree? I nip out to get some baking powder and come back to a jumped conclusion. Heigh-ho.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2011)

He didn't say that it was _your_ defence jumper. It was comment on the shitness of the article you linked to.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2011)

Johann Hari, Wikipedia and a porn site: an extraordinary new development

wtf, this is getting mental, I'm  not sure this one is right tbh, but...it's out there now. If this is wrong it could be Hari getting very lucky once more....




> So this David Rose is a Cambridge friend of Hari, and at that time he works at the Independent as a sub on shifts. He is also well-known in the office for his disagreements with Hari.
> 
> David Rose is also something to do with Methuselah Productions. It is used as his hotmail address and (in abbreviated form) his Wikipedia address. Unfortunately whatever productions Methuselah Productions produced were not successful, as it has no easily identifiable trace on internet.
> 
> ...



edit: you really need to read the comments on this one as well, from the original article - here

edit2: for those just reading the quote, the suggestion is that David Rose is Hari.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 9, 2011)

It gets better...


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> edit2: for those just reading the quote, the suggestion is that David Rose is Hari.


 
seems fairly obvious from the article tbf.

fucking marvelous. what a total buffoon.


----------



## OneStrike (Jul 9, 2011)

Haha at the gay incest link, you couldn't make it up (someone else would have to).


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 9, 2011)

killer b said:


> seems fairly obvious from the article tbf.
> 
> fucking marvelous. what a total buffoon.



People are lazy though, they'll just read the quote. There is more to come on all sorts of hari-related stuff i'm told...


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 9, 2011)

Rose must be Hari.


----------



## killer b (Jul 9, 2011)

there's been more movement in the comments since earlier this evening, but nothing conclusive either way...


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 9, 2011)

Bloody hell.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 10, 2011)

killer b said:


> there's been more movement in the comments since earlier this evening, but nothing conclusive either way...


 
I wouldn't be surprised if it's never conclusively proven, but "everyone will know it's true".


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2011)

More Hari sock-puppetry? Here's something odd from that one as well 



> Niko does seem a bit obsessed with defending Hari. If you google ‘Niko’ ‘Johann Hari’ there are hundreds of results. Usually there follows a mention that Hari went to the Congo last year so he can’t be criticised.






			
				meltingpot said:
			
		

> OK, probably there's some substance to the allegations against him. And I don't always agree with him. But kick him around? A guy who, apart from many other scandals he's reported on over the years, has been out to the Congo reporting on the war fought over that material they put in mobile 'phones, which everyone else wants to try and forget about?
> 
> What have you,  any of you, done with your lives to put against that?



(Not saying it's you meltingpot, i just found it funny)


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

it's not meltingpot. But yeh, hari does obviously have previous for this sort of thing  Is it me or has the wikipedia thing been known about for quite some time?


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2011)

Yeah, there's been plenty in private eye about his many online personalities.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

i've just looked on the talk page of that sourcewatch article about hari - dave r claims to be a real person and gives the name of some blogger at lenins' tomb that will identify him. does anyone know if it was ever checked up one way or the other?


----------



## Combustible (Jul 10, 2011)

How does this journalistic calculus work then?  Does one Congo article get you a plagiarism pass for life or is there an exchange rate.  One worthy report allows you to make up 5 interviews.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> i've just looked on the talk page of that sourcewatch article about hari - dave r claims to be a real person and gives the name of some blogger at lenins' tomb that will identify him. does anyone know if it was ever checked up one way or the other?


 
Yep, you really need to read all the comments here to follow see how it's panning out...


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2011)

entertainingly, is the answer to that one.


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2011)

i'd be interested to find out what scurrilous info Archie Valparaiso and Bobby posted...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 10, 2011)

Very entertainingly! And if the latest is to be believed there's still more in the pipeline...

edit: yep, me too, hope they can back it up later, whatever it was


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

Bloody hell reading the comments now , the plot thickens


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Very entertainingly! And if the latest is to be believed there's still more in the pipeline...
> 
> edit: yep, me too, hope they can back it up later, whatever it was


 
I feel a bit sorry for that Times guy


----------



## killer b (Jul 10, 2011)

fuck him. he works for the times.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

> Curiouser and curiouser. The blogpost Archie Valparaiso links to suggests that if David Rose isn’t a real person then Hari’s a stranger guy than I thought. That post appeared 6 June 2005 and confirms that a guy called Dave was helping him run his website while doing a PhD but had to stop for lack of time. David r doesn’t start editing Wikipedia until 19 Oct 2006 whereupon he appears to have a great deal of time, much of which he devotes to upholding Hari’s reputation.
> 
> Prior to David r appearing on Wikipedia there were several apparent sockpuppets making changes, particularly with regards to the public school Hari went to. At first, they remove all mention of this, then they try to show that the school wasn’t actually that posh, and then they edit the page of the school itself (John Lyon School) to point out that Hari says it was “appalling” (on a radio show at 10pm which they all listened to). David r picks up the baton on this, and many other issues, when the sockpuppets fade away in 2007.
> 
> ...



omfg ...


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 10, 2011)

killer b said:


> fuck him. he works for the times.


 
I did say "a bit"


----------



## fogbat (Jul 10, 2011)

The AWL (mentioned in the comments on that JoK piece) have got an event in Archway this weekend. 

Have texted a mate who's there to see whether they've heard of David Rose.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 11, 2011)

http://johannhari.com/2002/01/09/forbidden-love

This article is clearly partly fictional - the bit where his "friend" Rob comes to him and his flatmate is a little bit of creative writing, even if we didn't know he makes things up it would surely be obvious.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

Hari's still a better writer than a hell of a lot of other journalists out there.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Hari's still a better writer than a hell of a lot of other journalists out there.


 
And that tells us what exactly? That he's not completely submerged beneath a tsunami of lies, half-truths and misrepresentations?


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Hari's still a better writer than a hell of a lot of other journalists out there.


 
Then he should do the honourable thing and label what he does as "fiction" and not pretend it's journalism.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And that tells us what exactly? That he's not completely submerged beneath a tsunami of lies, half-truths and misrepresentations?


 
Let's be honest, there's probably a fucking tidal wave of scandal in journalism, and in journalist's private lives. People are out for Hari's blood because he doesn't give a fuck who he offends, and he writes things that people don't want to read. Yeah, he made a major fuck-up over the Iraq war, but IMO he's made up for that a hundred times over in the ensuing years. Who give a toss if he or one of his friends edits Richard Littlejohn's Wiki page, he's a cunt anyway.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And that tells us what exactly? That he's not completely submerged beneath a tsunami of lies, half-truths and misrepresentations?


 
It tells us he may have a future as a novelist.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> Then he should do the honourable thing and label what he does as "fiction" and not pretend it's journalism.


 
I hardly think what he does is fiction. People are massively overreacting to what is essentially a bit of a stupid thing to do. Hardly earth shattering deception is it?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 11, 2011)

He went to the Congo, you know.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

Could somebody please condense what this is all about (haven't time to read 15 pages - sorry) and whether this is a smear campaign or the boy done wrong? Many thanks.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Hari's still a better writer than a hell of a lot of other journalists out there.


 
the letters page of _chicks with dicks_ also finds it difficult to find contributors who match up to his writing.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Could somebody please condense what this is all about (haven't time to read 15 pages - sorry) and whether this is a smear campaign or the boy done wrong? Many thanks.


 
They've got him bang to rights for plagiarism and making things up.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Could somebody please condense what this is all about (haven't time to read 15 pages - sorry) and whether this is a smear campaign or the boy done wrong? Many thanks.


 
About 90% from smear campaign and 10% from the boy done wrong. All a bit pathetic really.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> They've got him bang to rights for plagiarism and making things up.


 
Cheers. Who has him bang to rights?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> About 90% from smear campaign and 10% from the boy done wrong. All a bit pathetic really.


 
Name a single smear.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> About 90% from smear campaign and 10% from the boy done wrong. All a bit pathetic really.


 
hello johann.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Name a single smear.


 
That he's responsible for writing gay incest porn?


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

Aye that's it, anyone who defends someone who's being demonised HAS to be that person. Laughable. This is why the left is so fragmented, we concentrate on shitty little feuds rather than the bigger picture.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Aye that's it, anyone who defends someone who's being demonised HAS to be that person. Laughable. This is why the left is so fragmented, we concentrate on shitty little feuds rather than the bigger picture.


 
WTF has Hari got to do with the left?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Aye that's it, anyone who defends someone who's being demonised HAS to be that person. Laughable. _This is why the left is so fragmented, we concentrate on shitty little feuds rather than the bigger picture_.


 
Shhh! Don't say that! You'll be demonised, next


----------



## Santino (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Aye that's it, anyone who defends someone who's being demonised HAS to be that person. Laughable. This is why the left is so fragmented, we concentrate on shitty little feuds rather than the bigger picture.


 
*wrings hands*


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> That he's responsible for writing gay incest porn?


 
No one's actually said that - they've said that it's one of the few existing link to an email address of the person who has spent a near decade hunting Hari's critics down and that people have long suspected actually is Hari. It's not a smear, it's evidence in establishing just who this david rose is. Incidentally the almost equally odious Odone has now come out with this:

 I fell out with Johann Hari – then 'David Rose' started tampering viciously with my Wikipedia entry

Next smear please Plaid, given that we have achived 90% smearage here, there must surely be more?


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> WTF has Hari got to do with the left?


 
Fucking hell, did he edit all your Wikipedias or something? Mountain out of a molehill springs to mind.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No one's actually said that - they've said that it's one of the few existing link to an email address of the person who has spent a near decade hunting Hari's critics down and that people have long suspected actually is Hari. It's not a smear, it's evidence in establishing just who this david rose is. Incidentlly the almost equally odios Odeone has now come out with this:
> 
> I fell out with Johann Hari – then 'David Rose' started tampering viciously with my Wikipedia entry
> 
> Next smear please Plaid.


 
Bollocks. That article clearly implies Hari is David Rose, and that DR is responsible for writing gay incest porn. I hate it when people try to act all naive, that's a clear character assassination that implies he's been writing gay incest porn in the dark corners of the internet, and you know it.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Fucking hell, did he edit all your Wikipedias or something? Mountain out of a molehill springs to mind.



Call me old fashioned but I find plagiarism and dishonesty to be serious faults in a journalist.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Shhh! Don't say that! You'll be demonised, next


 
Similarly to Hari, people will always have a pop when you tell them truths they don't want to hear. I like Johann Hari, he writes good articles, always makes salient points, and pisses off cunts like Littlejohn, which is always good. I'm not going to defend everything he's ever done, because I'm not the President of his fan club, he's made fuck ups like everyone has. However, when there's bigger fish to fry people are getting way too obsessive over this. Journalism would be worse off without Hari, simply because not many other mainstream journos are prepared to slag off the coalition like he is.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Bollocks. That article clearly implies Hari is David Rose, and that DR is responsible for writing gay incest porn. I hate it when people try to act all naive, that's a clear character assassination that implies he's been writing gay incest porn in the dark corners of the internet, and you know it.



That article might well do - the original that we've been talking about and referring to doesn't. It's still there for you to read if you're so concerned. It's there as part of the necessary  building up a body and chain of evidence. So please, next smear. And whilst you're at it, can you tell us what the 10% he's been caught bang to rights is?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Similarly to Hari, people will always have a pop when you tell them truths they don't want to hear. I like Johann Hari, he writes good articles, always makes salient points, and pisses off cunts like Littlejohn, which is always good. I'm not going to defend everything he's ever done, because I'm not the President of his fan club, he's made fuck ups like everyone has. However, when there's bigger fish to fry people are getting way too obsessive over this. Journalism would be worse off without Hari, simply because not many other mainstream journos are prepared to slag off the coalition like he is.


 
You don't seem to know what this is all about. Could you tell us what you think it's about please? Also, why are people far more opposed to the coalition then Hari involved in this?


----------



## Riklet (Jul 11, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He went to the Congo, you know.









The David Rose stuff is really weird!


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

You're pissing in the wind here PlaidDragon. I'm not entirely disagreeing with you on the mountain from a mole-hill angle, but then again I'm happy to see Hari lose his job. He's working as a journalist and tries to pass as one, not a fiction writer. His writing contains lies, plagiarism and misrepresentations. What more do you need to know? Whether he's written gay incest porn is neither here nor there.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Similarly to Hari, people will always have a pop when you tell them truths they don't want to hear. I like Johann Hari, he writes good articles, always makes salient points, and pisses off cunts like Littlejohn, which is always good. I'm not going to defend everything he's ever done, because I'm not the President of his fan club, he's made fuck ups like everyone has. However, when there's bigger fish to fry people are getting way too obsessive over this. Journalism would be worse off without Hari, simply because not many other mainstream journos are prepared to slag off the coalition like he is.


 Would these truths be _uncomfortable_ by any chance? You don't don't seem to be so keen on them yourself to be honest.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

How is hari being demonised? He fucking admitted it ffs. And I don't see negri being exactly a friend of the coalition ..


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That article might well do - the original that we've been talking about and referring to doesn't. It's still there for you to read if you're so concerned. It's there are part of building up a body of evidence. So please, next smear. And whilst you're at it, can you tell us what the 10% he's been caught bang to rights is?


 
I really don't know what your issue is with him, it's like an obsession. He got nailed for writing that interviewers said things they didn't, which he had taken from either previous interviews or their published works. Hardly crime of the century. Continually banging on about it and bringing other aspects (especially unfounded ones like the Rose tangent) into the original issue is a smear campaign. It's trying to smear him with the tag of bad journalist, which he isn't. Naive and a bit foolish to do what he did? Certainly. Master plagiarist and Machiavellian internet troll? Nah.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You don't seem to know what this is all about. Could you tell us what you think it's about please? Also, why are people far more opposed to the coalition then Hari involved in this?


 
Don't fucking patronise me you cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

> It's trying to smear him with the tag of bad journalist, which he isn't



Anyone want to buy a plaid ostrich mug? Only one ever produced.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> I really don't know what your issue is with him, it's like an obsession. He got nailed for writing that interviewers said things they didn't, which he had taken from either previous interviews or their published works. Hardly crime of the century. Continually banging on about it and bringing other aspects (especially unfounded ones like the Rose tangent) into the original issue is a smear campaign. It's trying to smear him with the tag of bad journalist, which he isn't. Naive and a bit foolish to do what he did? Certainly. Master plagiarist and Machiavellian internet troll? Nah.


 
He's a journalist that indulges in lies. Why the fuck should he be given a get out of jail card? Because you sympathise with his politics? Get to fuck.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Don't fucking patronise me you cunt.



I'm not patronising you, you genuinely don't seem to have a grasp of what's going on here - what the importance of this is, how or why it matters. You're basically saying that people you like can do what they want, and the only grounds for disagreeing with you are because of the powerful 'truth' (sic) of Hari's word. And i bet that you're on your hight rockin' horse over the NOTW. Don't you have any standards? You um...rotter.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

Where is the rest of this 90% smears plaid?


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> He's a journalist that indulges in lies. Why the fuck should he be given a get out of jail card? Because you sympathise with his politics? Get to fuck.


 
I've read all of this thread, I must have missed the bit about lies (and I'm not being facetious). Can I have a link please? 

Unlike certain others I'm more than capable of changing my mind and admitting I'm wrong, instead of being a stubborn fucker.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not patronising you, you genuinely don't seem to have a grasp of what's going on here - what the importance of this is, how or why it matters. You're basically saying that people you like can do what they want, and the only grounds for disagreeing with you are because of the powerful 'truth' (sic) of Hari's word. And i bet that you're on your hight rockin' horse over the NOTW. Don't you have any standards? You um...rotter.


 
Bollocks of the fucking highest order. I've never said 'he can do what he wants because I like him'. Cut the bollocks and have a proper discussion about what I'm ACTUALLY saying instead of putting words into my mouth.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> I've read all of this thread, I must have missed the bit about lies (and I'm not being facetious). Can I have a link please?
> 
> Unlike certain others I'm more than capable of changing my mind and admitting I'm wrong, instead of being a stubborn fucker.


 
Are you this passsive-aggressive irl?

Grow a pair.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> It's trying to smear him with the tag of bad journalist, which he isn't.


 
but he is. otherwise he wouldn't have had to plagiarise the works of others in many, many articles.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Bollocks of the fucking highest order. I've never said 'he can do what he wants because I like him'. Cut the bollocks and have a proper discussion about what I'm ACTUALLY saying instead of putting words into my mouth.


 
You're a terrible debater arent you?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Bollocks of the fucking highest order. I've never said 'he can do what he wants because I like him'. Cut the bollocks and have a proper discussion about what I'm ACTUALLY saying instead of putting words into my mouth.


 
You did, you just don't realise it. Let's have the rest of these 90% smears please.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Are you this passsive-aggressive irl?
> 
> Grow a pair.


 
Pathetic.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> You're a terrible debater arent you?


 
Erm, Butchers did say that he said Hari can do what he likes because he likes him.


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You did, you just don't realise it. Let's have the rest of these 90% smears please.


 
Ah I see, you're going to press that point and use it as validation that you've 'won'. I'll wait for that link to see about his lies (which I cba searching for). It's funny how I've not actually said he's done nothing wrong, because he has. But people read what they want to read.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Erm, Butchers did say that he said Hari can do what he likes because he likes him.


 
Whoosh!


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> I've read all of this thread, I must have missed the bit about lies (and I'm not being facetious). Can I have a link please?
> 
> Unlike certain others I'm more than capable of changing my mind and admitting I'm wrong, instead of being a stubborn fucker.


 
Dude, go back to the first few pages, I tried the same shit as you, only my excuse was I was ill and spoiling for a fight. Read the links, it's all there.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

I think saying you spent a few months in Iraq and it actually being more like a few weeks, in order to bolster up your support for an illegal war, or saying things people have written in their books (usually out of context) and claiming they actually said them to you in an interview counts as "lying" tbh

also he doesn't have anything to do with the left, or opposing the coalition, and people like him are actually discrediting that opposition tbh 

he said that he "had no objection in principle to privitising the NHS" in one of his articles 

ffs


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Whoosh!


 
Terrible debate!


----------



## PlaidDragon (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> I think saying you spent a few months in Iraq and it actually being more like a few weeks, in order to bolster up your support for an illegal war, or saying things people have written in their books (usually out of context) and claiming they actually said them to you in an interview counts as "lying" tbh


 
There we go. Thank you frogwoman, for actually using facts. And I wasn't aware he did that, and that's fucking low.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Erm, Butchers did say that he said Hari can do what he likes because he likes him.


 
And he did, same as meltingpot did earlier. The argument goes like this _ok, he did a little tiny wrong, but because he's great and i agree with an like him he should be cut some slack, and because his wrong was so tiny compared to others it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, so stop attacking him._ Now tell me that's not the logic of plaid's shouty posts above. When does it stop? At which point does what Hari has done _matter_ for people who take this line? It can't until he's done at least equal to the NOTW -_ because there are bigger fish to fry._


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> There we go. Thank you frogwoman, for actually using facts. And I wasn't aware he did that, and that's fucking low.


 
You would have been if you read the thread. Because that's what it's about.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> There we go. Thank you frogwoman, for actually using facts. And I wasn't aware he did that, and that's fucking low.


 
So, is it still OK, because he's a great leftie and a fantastic journalist that shines a spot-light on areas that no-one else dare report?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Ah I see, you're going to press that point and use it as validation that you've 'won'. I'll wait for that link to see about his lies (which I cba searching for). It's funny how I've not actually said he's done nothing wrong, because he has. But people read what they want to read.


 
I'll press it as one point for sure, because it was your claim and if you can't back it up it will become clearer that you don't really know what this is all about - as the above posts demonstrate.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't understand why all those blokes in robes and shaven heads dancing down Oxford Street still support him: Hari, Johaan Hari!


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> And he did, same as meltingpot did earlier. The argument goes like this _ok, he did a little tiny wrong, but because he's great and i agree with an like him he should be cut some slack, and because his wrong was so tiny compared to others it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things, so stop attacking him._ Now tell me that's not the logic of plaid's shouty posts above. When does it stop? At which point does what Hari has done _matter_ for people who take this line? It can't until he's done at least equal to the NOTW.


 
Hrrmmm... this is why I asked for a summary of the whole sorry affair. I certainly don't approve of JHs actions, if they are true. Are they true?

It's disappointing because (apart from the whole Iraq thing) I used to find JH quite readable.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I don't understand why all those blokes in robes and shaven heads dancing down Oxford Street still support him: Hari, Johaan Hari!


 
Gay incest porn. #taps nose


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Hrrmmm... this is why I asked for a summary of the whole sorry affair. I certainly don't approve of JHs actions, if they are true. Are they true?
> 
> It's disappointing because (apart from the whole Iraq thing) I used to find JH quite readable.


 
Yes, they're true. And he doesn't seem to know what plagiarism actually means. So well done all around.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Hrrmmm... this is why I asked for a summary of the whole sorry affair. I certainly don't approve of JHs actions, if they are true. Are they true?
> 
> It's disappointing because (apart from the whole Iraq thing) I used to find JH quite readable.



Do yourself a favour, read the first few pages of the thread at least before offering all this comment.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Hrrmmm... this is why I asked for a summary of the whole sorry affair. I certainly don't approve of JHs actions, if they are true. Are they true?


 
yes


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Do yourself a favour, read the first few pages of the thread at least before offering all this comment.


 
Someone's blog and stuff about tubby lesbians. Disgraceful.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

So someone being an idiot is enough to discount what the whole thread is saying? Did butchers, truxta or anyone else apart from revol call anyone a tubby lesbian?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> So someone being an idiot is enough to discount what the whole thread is saying? Did butchers, truxta or anyone else apart from revol call anyone a tubby lesbian?


 
I thought I was being called the tubby lesbian?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> So someone being an idiot is enough to discount what the whole thread is saying? Did butchers, truxta or anyone else apart from revol call anyone a tubby lesbian?


 
I don't know what to believe anymore. NotW, JH or urban.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

It's not about here and it's not about what people are saying on here. You need to look at the evidence for yourself not just discount it because it comes from people you don't like. There is loads and loads of damning evidence that comes from all sides of the political spectrum, this whole thing started after an interview which made the italian communist academic (??) negri look like an extremist and supporter of terrorism, which is hardly the act of a brave leftie defying the establishment as I'm sure you'll agree. Hari has stated his lack of opposition to privatisation of stuff like the nhs in the past, he has supported the war in iraq and afghanistan, and he has basically acted like the poster-boy for the sort of soft liberal leftism that many people on this website dislike, i dislike him because he has helped to discredit the left. but even if you are right wing, surely you must agree that someone who plagiarises others peoples work and passes off other peoples work as their own, or distorts what they say, no matter what they think, no matter what their views are, is nothing short of contemptible, and i have nothing but contempt for someone like that 

sorry


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

btw i have nothing against you, i know you've got beef with plenty of people on this website, thats not my busienss, but surely you must be able to leave personal dislike of someone out of what you think about a topic, and not just assume that they are wrong just because someone you dislike said it


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> It's not about here and it's not about what people are saying on here. You need to look at the evidence for yourself not just discount it because it comes from people you don't like. There is loads and loads of damning evidence that comes from all sides of the political spectrum, this whole thing started after an interview which made the italian communist academic (??) negri look like an extremist and supporter of terrorism, which is hardly the act of a brave leftie defying the establishment as I'm sure you'll agree. Hari has stated his lack of opposition to privatisation of stuff like the nhs in the past, he has supported the war in iraq and afghanistan, and he has basically acted like the poster-boy for the sort of soft liberal leftism that many people on this website dislike, i dislike him because he has helped to discredit the left. but even if you are right wing, surely you must agree that someone who plagiarises others peoples work and passes off other peoples work as their own, or distorts what they say, no matter what they think, no matter what their views are, is nothing short of contemptible, and i have nothing but contempt for someone like that
> 
> sorry


 
No need to apologise, you get your point across clearly and concisely, without resorting to the tactics some here revel in. Plagiarism, is indeed, wrong and indefensible. I cannot take Hari remotely seriously until he fesses up. And even then it would be difficult. I can understand why people would be disappointed in him - and no, I am not a tory.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

Has the earthy frank talking welsh prole gone to read the thread or just gone?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

You scared him off with your musty balls.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> He went to the Congo, you know.


 
Which probably means he was drinking a carton of Um-Bongo while dreaming up the nuts and bolts of the Congo story.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> About 90% from smear campaign and 10% from the boy done wrong. All a bit pathetic really.


 
Please substantiate your figures.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

killer b said:


> hello johann.


 
Don't you mean "Hello David R"?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Aye that's it, anyone who defends someone who's being demonised HAS to be that person. Laughable.



Laughable? No. Amusing speculation? Yes.



> This is why the left is so fragmented, we concentrate on shitty little feuds rather than the bigger picture.


 
What does Hari *really* have to do with "the left", other than his insistence (and that of his mate David) that he supports "the left"? Look through his actions and words, and what emerges are the actions of a concerned liberal, not of a socialist.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Similarly to Hari, people will always have a pop when you tell them truths they don't want to hear. I like Johann Hari, he writes good articles, always makes salient points, and pisses off cunts like Littlejohn, which is always good. I'm not going to defend everything he's ever done, because I'm not the President of his fan club, he's made fuck ups like everyone has. However, when there's bigger fish to fry people are getting way too obsessive over this. Journalism would be worse off without Hari, simply because not many other mainstream journos are prepared to slag off the coalition like he is.


 
You're missing the point by a mile, which is that while he may well "slag off the coalition" and call himself left-wing, but by engaging in plagiarism, dishonesty and fantasy he taints the causes he purports to support.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

he has not and has never been a leftist, not that that should matter of course, someones personal opinion is completely irrelevant when it comes to this sort of stuff ...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Don't fucking patronise me you cunt.


 
Why not? You don't seem to have grasped the import of such a breach of (already thin) journalistic standards as Hari has committed. If you're *really* that naive you *deserve* to be patronised.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> he has not and has never been a leftist, not that that should matter of course, someones personal opinion is completely irrelevant when it comes to this sort of stuff ...


 
It does matter, though, when the label "left-wing journalist" get used about him. It taints left politics by association. I don't have a lot of time for "the left" as currently constituted, but I'd rather they weren't tarred with Hari's brush.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> So, is it still OK, because he's a great leftie and a fantastic journalist that shines a spot-light on areas that no-one else dare report?


 
And, of course, people are still going to treat his journalistic output as credible, regardless of his exposure as the Walter Mitty of _The Independent_.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> It does matter, though, when the label "left-wing journalist" get used about him. It taints left politics by association. I don't have a lot of time for "the left" as currently constituted, but I'd rather they weren't tarred with Hari's brush.


 
Exactly which is the point I've repeatedly made ... some people think that they are all like him !


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly which is the point I've repeatedly made ... *people* think that they are all like him !


 
Surely a generalisation, in itself?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Exactly which is the point I've repeatedly made ... people think that they are all like him !


 
They do? They think that all lefties were for the invasion of Iraq? Think about this froggy.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

no ffs , of course i don't mean everyone, but the fact that people like hari claim to be speaking for the left does do some damage imo ... have edited now anyway


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> no ffs , of course i don't mean everyone, but the fact that people like hari claim to be speaking for the left does do some damage imo ...


 
Of course it would but nobody actually speaks for the left (or the right). He may think he's speaking from a left leaning position...


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

Read the thread yet?


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Read the thread yet?


 
Had a skinful yet?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

Have you read the thread yet krtek a houby? If not, why are you commenting?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

you don't think that a supposedly left wing journalist plagiarising and lying and taking right-wing positions discredits the left as a whole? For example wouldn't someone with a proven record for lying who includes facts about (eg) cuts in his articles discredit those facts or at least cast doubt on them??


----------



## TruXta (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> you don't think that a supposedly left wing journalist plagiarising and lying and taking right-wing positions discredits the left as a whole? For example wouldn't someone with a proven record for lying who includes facts about (eg) cuts in his articles discredit those facts or at least cast doubt on them??


 
I don't, no.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> you don't think that a supposedly left wing journalist plagiarising and lying and taking right-wing positions discredits the left as a whole? For example wouldn't someone with a proven record for lying who includes facts about (eg) cuts in his articles discredit those facts or at least cast doubt on them??


 
As I said - plagiarism, is indeed, wrong and indefensible. I cannot take Hari remotely seriously until he fesses up. And even then it would be difficult. I can understand why people would be disappointed in him - and no, I am not a tory. 

Does it discredit the left as a whole? Is the left one big homogenous entity?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I don't, no.


 
he's let the left down, he's let journalism down, but most of all ...


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> As I said - plagiarism, is indeed, wrong and indefensible. I cannot take Hari remotely seriously until he fesses up. And even then it would be difficult. I can understand why people would be disappointed in him - and no, I am not a tory.
> 
> Does it discredit the left as a whole? Is the left one big homogenous entity?


 
no, i'm not saying it discredits the left as a whole, i'm not saying that everyone will take his writings as being representative of the left, but the fact is that he keeps claiming to be part of it while trying to advance his own (frankly tiwsted) agenda. hari has done some good articles in my opinion, but the fact is that his lying and plaigiarism casts doubt on the facts within those articles. he's also respected by a lot of people, gets invites to things (such as the awl thing, not saying the AWL are representative either, but anyway ...)


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 11, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> no, i'm not saying it discredits the left as a whole, i'm not saying that everyone will take his writings as being representative of the left, but the fact is that he keeps claiming to be part of it while trying to advance his own (frankly tiwsted) agenda. hari has done some good articles in my opinion, but the fact is that his lying and plaigiarism casts doubt on the facts within those articles. he's also respected by a lot of people, gets invites to things (such as the awl thing, not saying the AWL are representative either, but anyway ...)


 
I rather imagine the invites will dry up after all this.

He's managed to discredit himself, so I doubt the collective left will be damaged in the grand scheme of things. He may be a poster boy for the liberals or advancing a shady right wing agenda or affiliating himself with the left... but even if he's been displaying his duality; it comes across as duplicity, according to what I've seen here.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

> but even if he's been displaying his duality


what, even if he's been displaying his duality?
What does this mean?


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> I really don't know what your issue is with him, it's like an obsession. He got nailed for writing that interviewers said things they didn't, which he had taken from either previous interviews or their published works. Hardly crime of the century. Continually banging on about it and bringing other aspects (especially unfounded ones like the Rose tangent) into the original issue is a smear campaign. It's trying to smear him with the tag of bad journalist, which he isn't. Naive and a bit foolish to do what he did? Certainly. Master plagiarist and Machiavellian internet troll? Nah.


 
There's an either/or here that is important.

Either there is a skill to being an interviewer by which they get the interviewee to reveal something interesting. In which case stealing quotes from somebody else's interview and claiming them as your own is totally out of order. Or there is no skill involved at all and the whole thing is a waste of time anyway. Either way he's a bad journalist.

It's beyond naive and foolish, it's completely ignoring other people's intellectual property rights.

Something that Johann Hari himself seemed totally aware of last month when I interrupted him clambering out of next door's wheelie bin clad in a rather fetching combination of eau de nil tutu and brown biker boots. "A book has a different relationship to time than a TV show or a Facebook update. It says that something was worth taking from the endless torrent of data and laying down on an object that will still look the same a hundred years from now." He said, as he deftly evaded the doberman guard dog and legged it towards the bus stop.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

> Something that Johann Hari himself seemed totally aware of last month when I interrupted him clambering out of next door's wheelie bin clad in a rather fetching combination of eau de nil tutu and brown biker boots. "A book has a different relationship to time than a TV show or a Facebook update. It says that something was worth taking from the endless torrent of data and laying down on an object that will still look the same a hundred years from now." He said, as he deftly evaded the doberman guard dog and legged it towards the bus stop.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 11, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> I hardly think what he does is fiction. People are massively overreacting to what is essentially a bit of a stupid thing to do. Hardly earth shattering deception is it?


 
It's fiction. He is taking a quote given to somebody else in an interview or written in a book, and claiming it to be something given to him in an interview, and making up a fictional context to try to cover that up. It's not journalism. It's dishonesty and plagiarism. It's fair enough when writing fiction, but not appropriate in journalism.

Though admittedly these days there's not a lot that journalists don't currently seem to consider to be appropriate in journalism.


----------



## killer b (Jul 11, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> what, even if he's been displaying his duality?
> What does this mean?


 
balls on display?


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 11, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> It's fiction. He is taking a quote given to somebody else in an interview or written in a book, and claiming it to be something given to him in an interview, and making up a fictional context to try to cover that up. It's not journalism. It's dishonesty and plagiarism. It's fair enough when writing fiction, but not appropriate in journalism.
> 
> Though admittedly these days there's not a lot that journalists don't currently seem to consider to be appropriate in journalism.


 
As Johann Hari admitted to me the last time I sat with him, sipping his latte with the last ever copy of the News of the World, a Wikipedia page open on his Netbook


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 11, 2011)

Genius, pure teenage genius. He's been at it on amazon reviews too. The evidence mounteth.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 11, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I rather imagine the invites will dry up after all this.
> 
> He's managed to discredit himself, so I doubt the collective left will be damaged in the grand scheme of things. He may be a poster boy for the liberals or advancing a shady right wing agenda or affiliating himself with the left... but even if he's been displaying his duality; it comes across as duplicity, according to what I've seen here.


 
Oh great, a fucking Manichean!


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 12, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> Hari's still a better writer than a hell of a lot of other journalists out there.


 
So he's still shit, look at the appalling Negri article, look at the terrible articles shihi quoted from.

And they aren't just utterly shit pieces of journalism it's clear from them that Hari's politics are neo-liberalism to the core.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

David Allen Green (the bloke who uncovered all this new stuff - "Intellectual fraud on industrial scale.") is now _effectively_ saying that Rose is Hari, but that he can't _actually_ say it due to the libel laws. Guy Walters was also going into print with the claim in the New Statesman yesterday but appears to have met _something_ blocking him at the last minute. Hari has previously threatened legal action against a (shit) blog that merely said that a reviewer wouldn't want a reputation for getting facts wrong.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 12, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Oh great, a fucking Manichean!


 
Got no reply from the other chap, despite a dozen posts, how frustrating for you.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 12, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Got no reply from the other chap, despite a dozen posts, how frustrating for you.


 
Why would it be frustrating? I'd say that it's illustrative.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

Guy Walters now openly saying the New Statesman editors bottled out of printing his two stories on har/david rose.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

Looks like they'll be seeing the light of day elsewhere pretty soon...


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## krtek a houby (Jul 12, 2011)

This message is hidden because butchersapron is on your ignore list.


----------



## Santino (Jul 12, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Guy Walters now openly saying the New Statesman editors bottled out of printing his two stories on har/david rose.


 


butchersapron said:


> Looks like they'll be seeing the light of day elsewhere pretty soon...


 


krtek a houby said:


> This message is hidden because butchersapron is on your ignore list.


 
There you go.


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 12, 2011)

Santino said:


> There you go.


 
You're a bit of cunt, really aintcha


----------



## killer b (Jul 12, 2011)




----------



## fogbat (Jul 12, 2011)

Santino said:


> There you go.


 
They were posts all about krtek. Subtly, like.


----------



## Corax (Jul 12, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Guy Walters now openly saying the New Statesman editors bottled out of printing his two stories on har/david rose.


 
Where's that?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

On his twitter account:



> Sorry folks. Two blog posts planned to run in the @NewStatesman owing to lack of editorial appetite.


----------



## Corax (Jul 12, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> On his twitter account:


Cheers, and  @ this one:


> Or is it just that David Rose accidentally signed his comment 'Johann' on that one occasion?



According to Private Eye Hari worked for Jeffrey Archer for a bit.  Picked up a few tips it would seem.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 12, 2011)

http://blogs.oracle.com/christophersaul/entry/comments_on_johann_hari_s

Interesting ...

(altho reading the comments u get a slightly differnet picture)


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

Hari gone.


----------



## Fruitloop (Jul 12, 2011)

eh?


----------



## killer b (Jul 12, 2011)

Breaking: Johann Hari suspended for 2 months pending internal Independent Investigation by ex-editor Andreas Whittam-Smith


----------



## TruXta (Jul 12, 2011)

Oh good.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

Andreas Whittam-Smith was who it all happened under!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

It's coming hari (and i don't mean your underage  brother)


----------



## belboid (Jul 12, 2011)

ha, suspended!  http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14129308


----------



## krtek a houby (Jul 12, 2011)

Whatever happened to integrity


----------



## Refused as fuck (Jul 12, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Whatever happened to integrity


 

Johann Hari


----------



## Divisive Cotton (Jul 12, 2011)

I like the new editor of the Independent, Chris Blackhurst, i used to read his City column in the Evening Standard


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 12, 2011)

Fair play the BBC writer:



> book about Italian _communist_ Toni Negri.


----------



## JimW (Jul 12, 2011)

Italian communist does for English columnist


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 13, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Whatever happened to integrity


 
It was privatised. Now it's all been bought up. If you want integrity you'll have to rent some from either Murdoch or Branson, or you may be able to get cheap imported Chinese integrity on the black market if you know the right people.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Fair play the BBC writer:



Lower case too - nice.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

Should correct something -  Whittam Smith was not the editor at any point when Hari was writing for them.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

Another day, another lie


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

It kinda beggars belief that he thought to make stuff up from that particular interview.


----------



## killer b (Jul 13, 2011)

i see laurie penny is writing for the indie a bit now - do they need to keep up their quota of articles by lightweight soft-left fantasists or something?


----------



## Belushi (Jul 13, 2011)

killer b said:


> i see laurie penny is writing for the indie a bit now - do they need to keep up their quota of articles by lightweight soft-left fantasists or something?


 
One in, one out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Whatever happened to integrity


 
He got an ice-pick that made his ears burn.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 13, 2011)

TruXta said:


> It kinda beggars belief that he thought to make stuff up from that particular interview.


 
Why did he lie about something that was filmed???


----------



## Athos (Jul 13, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> Why did he lie about something that was filmed???


 
Habit.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

Probably. Still, what was he thinking?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 13, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Probably. Still, what was he thinking?


 
"I've got away with lying before, I'll get away with it again".


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> "I've got away with lying before, I'll get away with it again".


 
Where's meltingpot when you need her?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Probably. Still, what was he thinking?


 
He was thinking _you're all mugs and i'm better than you_


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He was thinking _you're all mugs and i'm better than you_


 
Now now, you're doing it again, butchers. I thought we sorted this out last night?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

I'll argue that in a court of law.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'll argue that in a court of law.


 
I'd like to see that.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

Me too. I'm here David.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

Rose? That you?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 13, 2011)

the sound of balls slapping


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

The sound of one ball slapping


----------



## TruXta (Jul 13, 2011)

...and labia flapping.


----------



## Athos (Jul 13, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Probably. Still, what was he thinking?


 
"I'll dash this shit piece off, then get round my younger brother's"?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

Mealy mouthed friggery. It's ok to suggest that you think that incest porn is not that normal. It's not. (didn't happen here but, what the hell)


----------



## Combustible (Jul 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Mealy mouthed friggery. It's ok to suggest that you think that incest porn is not that normal. It's not.


 
Well he is a Lib-Dem.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 13, 2011)

He's a member no less. Stuck his head above though.


----------



## Corax (Jul 13, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Mealy mouthed friggery. It's ok to suggest that you think that incest porn is not that normal. It's not. (didn't happen here but, what the hell)


 
That's just utterly bizarre.


> There is a distinction between criminal acts and their fictional representation. A murder novel is not an endorsement of murder in real life.


What a crap parallel.  Murder novels are not usually aimed at titillating those that fantasise about murdering people.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 14, 2011)

I think most people, "liberal" or not, would take offence at a murder novel that glorified the murderer and made him the hero of the piece. I think someone's cried homophobia and he's scared it might stick tbh, hope I'm wrong mind.

And I'd say it's homophobic to claim that criticising someone for writing in glowing terms about gay incest with a minor is homophobic. It suggests that all gays are somehow involved in incest, paedophilia and other forms of wrongness - otherwise why isn't it also heterophobic to have a go about people who talk about "straight" incest with a minor? It's clear, at least to me, that it's the _incest with a minor_ part rather than the _gay_ part that people find offensive.

However, I suppose Hari would rather we were talking about whether his "friend's" writings were acceptable when the alternative is to concentrate on his lies, plagiarism, fraud and various other crimes against journalism.


----------



## ymu (Jul 14, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> There we go. Thank you frogwoman, for actually using facts. And I wasn't aware he did that, and that's fucking low.


 
There's also the piss poor research in most of his articles. I've never read any of his interviews, but I am careful about which of his articles I use if the technicalities matter, They can be great drum-banging angry-making stuff (and therefore useful), but he is sloppy as hell when it comes to checking his facts/assumptions. Hence the Iraq idiocy - I respect the fact that he apologised more or less unreservedly, but there is and was no excuse for making the error in the first place. If he was a decent journalist and genuinely held the views he claims to, he could not and would not have made that 'mistake'.

He did too well too young, and he hasn't stopped to wonder if maybe he doesn't know it all just yet - like most of these over-privileged twats who try to assume the mantle of 'voice of the left'. And that is a huge fucking problem becaue he's been granted a very loud megaphone.

His behaviour over the UK Uncut/Black Bloc stuff on March 26th was disgraceful. He published and tweeted some really shameful, arrogant, divisive shit. I had a go at him about it on twitter and his self-righteousness was breathtaking. He just doesn't get it, and he never will if people keep letting him off the hook for shoddy, lazy work and inability to question his assumptions about the world. He's blown it, and he needs to learn from it - if he's capable of learning anything now that he's convinced himself that he knows it all already.


----------



## ymu (Jul 14, 2011)

Good to see that the News Corp scandal wasn't quite such good news for Hari, anyway. I wonder how much of his sacking was about the editor scrambling to be seen to act on this shit for once ...

Ah, the news is full of sweet, sweet joy at the moment.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 14, 2011)

.


----------



## Santino (Jul 14, 2011)

Combustible said:


> Well he is a Lib-Dem.


 


butchersapron said:


> He's a member no less. Stuck his head above though.


 
Not only that, he joined _after_ they formed the coalition.

Think about that for a moment.







*shudder*


----------



## manny-p (Jul 16, 2011)

Has anyone mentioned that it has been reported in some quarters that he is the author of some incest porn stories which he put out on the net.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2011)

it may have been mentioned. we don't miss many tricks round here.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 16, 2011)

allybaba said:


> Has anyone mentioned that it has been reported in some quarters that he is the author of some incest porn stories which he put out on the net.



Either he has a particularly devoted friend and assistant whose full-time job is defending him online, or he wrote it.

It wouldn't surprise me to find him writing gay incest porn anonymously, since he has written about incest, porn and being gay in sympathetic fashion under his own name.

Nor would I think less of him for doing so, probably.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2011)

yeah tbf it's the plagiarism that's the main issue here - the sockpuppet underage incest porn is just a bizarre diversion.


----------



## Athos (Jul 16, 2011)

phildwyer said:


> Either he has a particularly devoted friend and assistant whose full-time job is defending him online, or he wrote it.
> 
> It wouldn't surprise me to find him writing gay incest porn anonymously, since he has written about incest, porn and being gay in sympathetic fashion under his own name.
> 
> Nor would I think less of him for doing so, probably.


 
He's written about incest in sympathetic terms?


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 16, 2011)

Athos said:


> He's written about incest in sympathetic terms?


 
Aye.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2002/jan/09/familyandrelationships.features103


----------



## Athos (Jul 16, 2011)

phildwyer said:


> Aye.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2002/jan/09/familyandrelationships.features103


 
Blimey!


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2011)

I think killer b is right that for now this stuff is a sideshow, but here's an example of hari being dishonest etc over this issue as well.


----------



## Athos (Jul 16, 2011)

Nothing wrong with a war on many fronts.  And the taint of this sort of thing might make his media chums less keen to welcome him back into the fold, when the initial plagiarism stuff dies down.


----------



## manny-p (Jul 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I think killer b is right that for now this stuff is a sideshow, but here's an example of hari being dishonest etc over this issue as well.


 
Aye but some of his writings are about pimping out and shagging his wee brother.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2011)

Read the thread mate, you're weeks behind.


----------



## manny-p (Jul 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Read the thread mate, you're weeks behind.


 
Sorry didn't realise it had been mentioned before.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 16, 2011)

Just a few times! 

The danger is, if the person whose wrote that fantasy about underage incest turns out not to be Hari then it'll undermine everything else.


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 16, 2011)

Did he get suspended this week from the Indy?


----------



## Corax (Jul 16, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Did he get suspended this week from the Indy?


 
Yes.

And apparently there's some sort of connection with underage incest porn too.


----------



## manny-p (Jul 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Just a few times!
> 
> The danger is, if the person whose wrote that fantasy about underage incest turns out not to be Hari then it'll undermine everything else.


 
Yep sorry I usually read through the thread. Maybe it ain't him he looks the type though


----------



## revol68 (Jul 16, 2011)

The incest porn brings him up in my book, who knew the little liberal brat had the ability for such radical depravity in him, the absurd hyper masculinity of the piece is probably the most subversive thing the clown has ever written.



> Later that night, as he thanked me for the best birthday present he had ever received, I explained I was going to have his ass tattooed. `Property of Leroy Jones. Access strictly forbidden except to owner.' I had it done a week later. You might see us around, my boy and me. I'm the one with the sharp suit and the big dick. He's the one with the tight ass, staring at his brother with silent love, ready at a moment's order to drop to his knees or to part his ass cheeks for his boss. If you see us, come say hi and get your wallet ready. I have lots of fit, prime boys you can buy -- and one very special one you can't


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I think killer b is right that for now this stuff is a sideshow, but here's an example of hari being dishonest etc over this issue as well.


 
The porn doesn't really interest me, except in a strictly OMG kind of way - I totally understand why you'd want to keep such examples of your work pseudonymous. The sock puppetry is important though ( if indeed it is him), as it further shows the lengths he'll go to in his deceptions, and shows up his excuses as the lies they surely are...


----------



## Kid_Eternity (Jul 16, 2011)

Corax said:


> Yes.
> 
> And apparently there's some sort of connection with underage incest porn too.



Er what?


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2011)

From _Private Eye_ #1081 (30 May 2003):



> Despairing _Indie_ hacks have a new nickname for gormless "wunderkind" Johann Hari, the newspaper's star hiring to replace David Aaronovitch. He is now known as Bum Fluff.
> 
> *The teenage scribbler has already been caught dusting off copy penned for the New Statesman and passing it off as ground-breaking original thinking for his new bosses at the Indie. *But it is Bum Fluff's apparently startling ignorance of basic history and geography that has most startled colleagues.
> 
> "Is Casablanca an Arab country?" he recently asked them. This was almost as jaw-dropping as the thoughtful columnist's question about Britain's military past. "Did British troops actually fight the Japanese in World War Two?" The boy will go far.


----------



## revol68 (Jul 16, 2011)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Er what?


 


> Later that night, as he thanked me for the best birthday present he had ever received, I explained I was going to have his ass tattooed. `Property of Leroy Jones. Access strictly forbidden except to owner.' I had it done a week later. You might see us around, my boy and me. I'm the one with the sharp suit and the big dick. He's the one with the tight ass, staring at his brother with silent love, ready at a moment's order to drop to his knees or to part his ass cheeks for his boss. If you see us, come say hi and get your wallet ready. I have lots of fit, prime boys you can buy -- and one very special one you can't


----------



## sihhi (Jul 16, 2011)

*Hari dishonesty*

Assertion: Middle-class parents drug their kids with Ritalin, poor parents can't do this. 



> For poor kids, the area is desolate. No leisure centre, one scabby little park, no arcades, nothing. Middle-class parents deal with the absence of public play-space for their children through expensive hobbies and clubs, by buying houses with big gardens, or - increasingly - drugging their kids with Ritalin. These are not options available to poor parents.



False claim about the charity Kids Company being "shut down" in 2002:



> Yet - in a horribly apt example of how we treat these "feral children" throughout our society - Kids' Company is not being lauded by its local council or by its local MP, Harriet Harman. In fact, it is being shut down by populist Labour councillors who have whipped up fear among the local residents. They complain that it attracts "the wrong type of kids" to the area, although the vast majority of children using the arches live within ten minutes' walking distance.



http://www.johannhari.com/2002/09/23/feral-children-the-lies

Inability to see reality

http://www.johannhari.com/2007/12/17/the-new-lib-dem-leader-could-just-change-british-politics



> One of the most appealing things about Clegg is that he is both totally British and genuinely European. He speaks five languages, and chose to be a Member of the European Parliament before migrating to Westminster. He is happy to look at what they do right on the continent – and try to bring it home.





> But if he continues to call for these two bold progressive policies, it will be impossible for him to form a coalition with the not-so-secretly blue David Cameron. And Clegg just might – if he fights for them long and hard enough – help to change the increasingly lop-sided and ugly face of British politics.


Clegg fought for both policies [pupil premium and amnesty for illegals] and still formed a coalition with Cameron.


http://www.johannhari.com/2004/04/1...ns-who-appease-them-have-blood-on-their-hands


> Thirty thousand people have been killed in the past year in a Colombian civil war facilitated, funded and fostered by our failing "war" to keep cocaine off our streets.


30,000 people killed in 2004 in Colombian civil conflict, where does the number come from? That's 82 people being killed every day.

Attacking the NHS whenever possible.



> Some people have mislabelled this [transfering state taxation funds  to private companies] as "part privatisation", because the Government has sometimes used tax money to send Granny Bloggs to a spare bed in a private hospital if she has been waiting in agony for a space in an NHS hospital for months. But as long as the system is free at the point of use, as long as my gran gets the same treatment as a duchess, who cares? How is it privatisation if the Government pays?
> 
> It's important to separate out what matters in this debate from what doesn't. The absolutely sacrosanct principle is that we all collectively pay for each other's healthcare through tax, and you get treated according to your need, not your ability to pay. Any hint of co-payment, any question of up-front charges, would be a violation of that principle, and would be a scandal. But once the service is free, the question of where you actually get treated should simply be a matter of technocratic problem-solving: what works best?



http://www.johannhari.com/2005/09/2...ance-to-keep-the-nhs-free-at-the-point-of-use


----------



## TruXta (Jul 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I think killer b is right that for now this stuff is a sideshow, but here's an example of hari being dishonest etc over this issue as well.


 
Jesus fuck, that is hair-raising. Honestly, until now I've thought _meh, he's a dishonest prick but so are most journos_, but that's straight up malicious and sadistic. Not to mention fucking stupid.


----------



## Riklet (Jul 16, 2011)

What an odious moron, quoting some pro-paedo professor in regards to teenage boys not experiencing emotional consequences from sexual abuse etc.  Personally i am massively uninterested in what erotica Hari writes and what gets him off, but quoting spurious 'research' in his articles is pretty fucked up....

His name seems pretty tarnished at the moment, fingers crossed he's untouchable for at least a good while.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 16, 2011)

It's all a misunderstanding, Janet Street-Porter was visiting the _Indy_ offices for old times' sake, spotted Hari and suggested, in her mouth-full-of-teeth way, that he get involved with the Ramblers' Association.


----------



## Corax (Jul 16, 2011)

I won't lament his fall, but part of me thinks the celebration (not necessarily here) a little overdone when there are far worse offenders out there.


----------



## killer b (Jul 16, 2011)

Name one.


----------



## Corax (Jul 16, 2011)

killer b said:


> Name one.


 
I didn't know it was a test!

I dunno.  Let's start with the obvious one - Littlejohn?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 17, 2011)

The Sun and NOTW journalists using anonymous sources?


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 17, 2011)

_Leroy Jones...?_


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 17, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The Sun and NOTW journalists using anonymous sources?


 
That's what journalists are supposed to do.


----------



## manny-p (Jul 17, 2011)

sihhi said:


> http://www.johannhari.com/2004/04/1...ns-who-appease-them-have-blood-on-their-hands
> 
> 30,000 people killed in 2004 in Colombian civil conflict, where does the number come from? That's 82 people being killed every day.


 
I think its about40,000 people killed from when the civil war started till 2004. Still the daily death rate including civil war related killings is pretty shocking.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jul 17, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Later that night, as he thanked me for the best birthday present he had ever received, I explained I was going to have his ass tattooed. `Property of Leroy Jones. Access strictly forbidden except to owner.' I had it done a week later. You might see us around, my boy and me. I'm the one with the sharp suit and the big dick. He's the one with the tight ass, staring at his brother with silent love, ready at a moment's order to drop to his knees or to part his ass cheeks for his boss. If you see us, come say hi and get your wallet ready. I have lots of fit, prime boys you can buy -- and one very special one you can't


----------



## audiotech (Jul 17, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> That's what journalists are supposed to do.



I was referring to the anonymous sources that don't exist and used as a ruse to tell porkies.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 18, 2011)

Andrew Gilligan accuses Hari of journalistic impropriety!


----------



## manny-p (Jul 18, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Andrew Gilligan accuses Hari of journalistic impropriety!


 
Lol@“papier-mâché Muslim.”


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 18, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Andrew Gilligan accuses Hari of journalistic impropriety!


 
And Andrew Gilligan knows ALL about journalistic impropriety.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 18, 2011)

[derail]
To my shame I once helped prevent an anarchist mob from giving Gilligan a well deserved hiding.
[/derail]


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 18, 2011)

penny (or a mate of hers) appears to be accusing Brian Whelan of libel here: 

http://twitter.com/#!/brianwhelanhack


----------



## sihhi (Jul 18, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> [derail]
> To my shame I once helped prevent an anarchist mob from giving Gilligan a well deserved hiding.
> [/derail]


 
Andy  'I'm here as a supporter not a tabloid journalist' Gilligan at the 2005 Glasgow anti-G8 protests?

More Johann Hari

1. 





> The only proven way to slash homelessness: heroin prescription





> Sixty percent of the homeless Londoners you toss a few pennies at are addicted to heroin after a childhood of being ignored, beaten or raped. The evidence shows the only way to lift them out of the chaos of scrambling for their next fix – the only way for them to settle away from the streets – is to provide it, safely and securely, in a doctor’s surgery. Heroin is not like, say, crack. Every doctor agrees that once a heroin addict is given a legal, safe supply, they will regulate their use and live normal, happy lives...



No housing please, just heroin.

2. 





> Legalise prostitution now.





> Brett once told me, "When I was seventeen and I
> dropped out of school I went to work in a call centre.
> It was the worst three months of my life. I was
> stressed, miserable, constantly being told what to do,
> ...



legalisation, regulation and unionisation ... like in call centres  where no one is ever "stressed, miserable, constantly being told what to do"


3. He hates Eric Hobsbawm not because of his pro-Kinnock pro-SDP-Labour coalition new realism, but because he is "an unapologetic defender of Stalinism".



> He [Eric Hobsbawm] is the David Irvine [sic] of the left. Why do so many decent people associate themselves with him? I can only conclude that we have not seriously thought about the victims of the tyranny he defends.
> 
> I have been fretting about this recently because the new movie The Motorcycle Diaries is reviving another Stalinist icon. Che Guevara was sexy and, in some ways, idealistic; he was also a defender of Joseph Stalin and mass murder. On several occasions, he actually prostrated himself before portraits of Stalin while making political pledges. He advocated "relentless hatred of the enemy that [should] impel us over and beyond the natural limitations of man and transform us into effective, violent, selective, and cold killing machines".



That's a quote from what Che wrote (whilst active in Bolivia) about what new recruits need to become good guerrilla fighters in a short space of time to ease the burden on Vietnam. Plus severe ignorance about Guatemala and Che Guevara.



> Is this a man to celebrate? Did Andy Gilchrist - the smart, decent leader of the Fire Brigades Union who I've picked as a random example - think about all those innocent people as he hung a picture of Che in his office? Yes, Che was fighting against heinous right-wing forces, not least in Guatemala, where the US was backing a far-right coup on behalf of a big corporation, the United Fruit Company. But those forces had to be resisted with left-wing democracy - not a twin totalitarianism of the left.



Attacking Andy Gilchrist 'as a random example' - while the dispute was still live. Hmm...
Che was a visitor in Guatemala he never fought anyone there he escaped when the crackdown started going beyond a 'normal' coup and thousands of people were being rounded up. Those right-wing forces were being resisted with "left-wing democracy" from 1950-1954 in Guatemala, until the coup. People were following Johann Hari's advice in the early 1950s and it meant they were getting tortured and killed. 

4. Strong hatred of socialised healthcare (see earlier post)



> We have nationalised the elderly, because we are too busy to care for them.





> The real alternative to the ongoing misery of care homes is radical. We must shift care of the elderly from depersonalised care homes back on to the extended family. In Britain today we have nationalised our old people, handing them over to the Government so we can get on with our terribly busy lives. But the Government does not care for the old any better than it provides for children in care; governments should not be in the business of looking after people directly through institutions, because it always ends in disaster.
> 
> At the moment, we hand pounds 279 a week on average to a care home for each elderly person. Wouldn't it be far better spent not by the state but by families caring for their own relatives? My family and I would look after my gran, I suspect, far better than nurses who don't know her - so hand us the money to make it possible and we'll do the job, with the help of a hired nurse. This would reverse the existing ratios: not six elderly people per carer, but rather four or five carers (who happen to be family members) per elderly person. The numbers problem is solved in a flash, for all but the most incapacitated elderly. Those old people without families could be "adopted". This would transform the system without spending an extra penny.
> Such a shift would require, of course, a massive cultural change. It requires sacrifice, a word which is deeply out of fashion...



blah blah blah the family will solve all our problems...

5. I think I have another cut'n'paste section by Johann Hari culled from US right-wing email circulars 

See here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp

It features all the elements that Hari has listed in this October 2003 article,
http://johannhari.com/2003/10/29/the-real-threat-to-iraqis-is-coming-now-from-western-defeatists
except it states Iraqi teachers earn up to 25 times pre-invasion salaries Hari has modified this to make it only 15 times. 



> The real picture, away from the frantic TV cameras, is that Iraq is getting steadily better by the day. Iraqi teachers today are earning between *12 and 15 times their Saddam-era salaries, *and almost every primary and secondary school is now open. Doctors' salaries have octupled, and *22 million vaccination doses have been given to Iraqi children. * The Kurds have never been happier or safer (they have, for over a decade now, been living in a thriving democracy on the land clawed back from Saddam in the first Gulf War, but they wanted the threat of Saddam removed forever). All of Iraq's 240 hospitals and 400 courts are open and in business; 40,000 police are on duty.



Outright lies about salaries for doctors and teachers. I suspect dishonesty about the vaccination doses - the whole population in Iraq's borders at 2003 was estimated at 25 million, not to mention conflating the removal of the Oil-For-Food sanctions regime (which denied certain medicines) with Western invasion. 

6. Bizarrely fighting 100-years-ago law on incest. No sibling 'consensual incest' case has been prosecuted under the 2004 law. The 1908 law doesn't exist any more and real-life application of incest laws have also changed.



> He has drawn attention to the "unjust" 1909 case of R v Ball, where a seemingly happy brother-sister couple who had been living as man and wife were "outed" and thrown into prison. He describes them as "harmless and respectable".





> We should, however, be wary of damning incest on these grounds alone. To prohibit two people from having sex because their offspring may be "defective" or "inferior" is to adopt the standpoint of a eugenicist. Indeed, Dr Sean Gabb has clearly shown that the impetus behind the 1908 Punishment of Incest Act was just that: the proponents of the act were exactly the same figures who advocated the "sterilisation" of the "feeble-minded". If we prohibit incest on the grounds that it risks producing "defective" children, we must also prohibit reproduction by haemophiliacs and the carriers of a host of other "defects".
> 
> In any case, we must acknowledge that, with the rise of contraception, we have succeeded in separating sex from reproduction. Another unashamed participant in incest discovered in a chatroom, "daddysgirl", insisted: "We would never have a baby, it would be all screwed up and wrong. I use the coil." So has a window opened for "safe" incest? And if so, is our visceral disgust just a remnant from a vanishing age?



http://johannhari.com/2002/01/09/forbidden-love

Does anyone care anymore is it worth carrying on? Please tell me.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 18, 2011)

Can't see what's so wrong about the first two points - altho his arguments for them are pretty shite. Yes, legalising or decriminalising heroin would help homeless junkies a lot. Yes, legalising prostitution is a good idea.


----------



## Corax (Jul 18, 2011)

Agreed.  I can't see anything at all wrong with the heroin angle, and the prostitution argument certainly isn't unreasonable.


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 18, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Can't see what's so wrong about the first two points - altho his arguments for them are pretty shite. Yes, legalising or decriminalising heroin would help homeless junkies a lot. Yes, legalising prostitution is a good idea.


 
The problem with the first one is that it is factually incorrect. According to Homeless Link using local authority stats, 33% of rough sleepers have drug problems. That's any drug not just heroin. He's basically just made up a figure out of thin air. Typical of the political establishment "left", come up with any reason for people being homeless other than there being a shortage of affordable housing. Even if they have to lie to do it.

That's because the solution to homelessness is unpalatable to anyone who wants to play the current "political game". It means creating more affordable housing, which will cause house prices to stop rising or even drop. That would hurt the sort of aspirant middle class mortgage slaves that all the political parties target. So you aren't allowed to point out that the ONLY way to create an inflationary housing market is to have a shortage of affordable housing.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 18, 2011)

ericjarvis said:


> The problem with the first one is that it is factually incorrect. According to Homeless Link using local authority stats, 33% of rough sleepers have drug problems. That's any drug not just heroin. He's basically just made up a figure out of thin air. Typical of the political establishment "left", come up with any reason for people being homeless other than there being a shortage of affordable housing. Even if they have to lie to do it.
> 
> That's because the solution to homelessness is unpalatable to anyone who wants to play the current "political game". It means creating more affordable housing, which will cause house prices to stop rising or even drop. That would hurt the sort of aspirant middle class mortgage slaves that all the political parties target. So you aren't allowed to point out that the ONLY way to create an inflationary housing market is to have a shortage of affordable housing.


 
Can't say I disagree with much of that. I did say that his arguments were shit, but that the outcomes - legalising heroin (and other drugs) and prostitution - were sound. Even a broken clock and so on.


----------



## revol68 (Jul 18, 2011)

No demands, kill Johann Hari everyday!


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 18, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> [derail]
> To my shame I once helped prevent an anarchist mob from giving Gilligan a well deserved hiding.
> [/derail]


 
Hang your head in shame.

My contribution to the whole Hutton thingy was casting Susan Watts in the first play I directed at college. I have never met Gilligan, thank God.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 19, 2011)

revol68 said:


> No demands, kill Johann Hari everyday!



I have to say I'm not sure why everyone hates him quite so much.  Obviously he's silly and annoying, but surely less bad than the overt right wing.  Reminds me of the response to George Galloway around here.  Or is it just that everyone hates anyone who has anything to do with the mainstream media or politics?


----------



## maldwyn (Jul 19, 2011)

revol68 said:


> No demands, kill Johann Hari everyday!



 

What I've found amusing about this thread is the way some posters didn't mind who they quoted/referenced just put the to boot in just one more time.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 19, 2011)

Why did that amuse you malders? Please say who you mean and where.


----------



## Athos (Jul 19, 2011)

phildwyer said:


> I have to say I'm not sure why everyone hates him quite so much.  Obviously he's silly and annoying, but surely less bad than the overt right wing.  Reminds me of the response to George Galloway around here.  Or is it just that everyone hates anyone who has anything to do with the mainstream media or politics?


 
What people hate is when liberals appoint themselves as spokespeople for the left. He's not of the left, and he certainly doesn't speak for me.


----------



## revlon (Jul 19, 2011)

someone hack his website. icing on the cake.


----------



## phildwyer (Jul 19, 2011)

Athos said:


> What people hate is when liberals appoint themselves as spokespeople for the left. He's not of the left, and he certainly doesn't speak for me.



But did he ever appoint himself as such?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Can't see what's so wrong about the first two points - altho his arguments for them are pretty shite. Yes, legalising or decriminalising heroin would help homeless junkies a lot. Yes, legalising prostitution is a good idea.


 
The problem is that it *isn't*, despite what Hari says, as simple as prescribing heroin. Many of those homeless addicts will have physical and psychological issues that also need treatment before then can "live normal, happy lives...".


----------



## TruXta (Jul 19, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> The problem is that it *isn't*, despite what Hari says, as simple as prescribing heroin. Many of those homeless addicts will have physical and psychological issues that also need treatment before then can "live normal, happy lives...".


 
Agreed. But taking that bit out of the equation would help junkies a lot. That's what you spend your time on after all - chasing the money for the next hit.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 20, 2011)

Hari seems to have taken his site down.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 20, 2011)

Ooops:



> *Johann Hari 'invented quotes' in report from Central African Republic, says charity that took him there *
> 
> In 2007, a charity took Johann Hari, the Independent’s star columnist and plagiarist, to the Central African Republic. His highly coloured report – one of the articles for which he won the Orwell prize – horrified the charity so much that it complained to Simon Kelner, the editor of the Independent, and organisers of the prize. Nothing happened, because Hari was the darling of liberal England and, hey, what are a few dodgy quotes between friends?
> 
> ...



From the _Telegraph_.

Bit awkward for Simon 'Nobody Complained' Kelner, too.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jul 20, 2011)

Hari suicide watch.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 20, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Hari suicide watch.


 
Now that's a rolling news digital TV channel we can all get behind.


----------



## sihhi (Jul 20, 2011)

This is what I cut from my post because it was too long and I have a weak connection.

http://www.johannhari.com/2006/09/15/the-only-proven-way-to-slash-homelessness-heroin-prescription



> Sixty percent of the homeless Londoners you toss a few pennies at are addicted to heroin after a childhood of being ignored, beaten or raped. The evidence shows the only way to lift them out of the chaos of scrambling for their next fix – the only way for them to settle away from the streets – is to provide it, safely and securely, in a doctor’s surgery. Heroin is not like, say, crack. Every doctor agrees that once a heroin addict is given a legal, safe supply, they will regulate their use and live normal, happy lives: William Wilberforce, John Halstead (the founder of the Harvard Medical School) and Samuel Taylor Coleridge were all highly-functional heroin-heads.



There's no one called John Halstead. The reference must be William Halsted surgeon and head of John Hopkins. Do the examples mean anything I don't know. But It's totally dishonest to say it's "proven" heroin prescription is the best way to reduce homelessness. 

Does every doctor agree that supplying of  heroin leads to "normal. happy lives"? The College of GPs gave evidence against the extension of heroin prescription, the current head Claire Gerada said it was likely to become a way of making addicts for life. The RCN is split down the middle. 

From a capitalist view:
Methadone: cheap, heroin: slightly more expensive but much better than methadone, proper programmes of rehabilitation+detoxification+employment+housing for all: really expensive 

It's overblown and exaggerated.

He mentions the same person - Erin O'Mara editor of Black Poppy magazine - in two separate columns two years apart basically recycling that good example magzine editor who uses heroin at the same time. But each time the name appears as Erin O'Hara - yes that's the same (only) person used as an example of the success of heroin prescription but the wrong surname. 

http://www.johannhari.com/2004/03/06/the-best-treatment-for-addiction-free-heroin


Prostitution once brothels are legalised and regulated.



> Stripped of legal rights and driven underground, sex workers are turned into outlaws who cannot seek or expect protection from the police. In these circumstances, they get trapped in often abusive relationships with pimps because they have nobody else to turn to. Provide them with recourse to the law - in licensed brothels equipped with panic buttons, where working prostitutes can look out for each other and identify offenders - and the need for pimps disappears.


http://www.johannhari.com/2004/01/02/at-last-an-opportunity-to-legalise-prostitution

http://www.johannhari.com/2003/07/20/legalise-prostitution-now-

Brothels are legal in New Zealand, the Netherlands and Germany: you get two types of pimps one set run the licensed brothels (more expensive), another set control the unlicensed trade (cheaper). He knows this, I'm sure, but just doesn't mention it. It's just exaggeration. 

None of this means I am against people being prescribed as much heroin as is needed or against repealing laws that criminalise soliciting.

It's Johann Hari's general dishonest approach that's the problem.

Another example: him trumpeting how correct it was to throw Galloway out of the Labour Party, should have been done sooner etc., even though he admits Tony Blair is guilty of the same crimes.



> The truth is that, to all decent people, Galloway and his dwindling band of comrades were rotting in a political graveyard before any of these accusations emerged. We do not need allegations of financial crookedness; we already know that he is morally crooked. The evidence for his authoritarianism is clear (indeed, I had documented it at length in this column, and said that he should be expelled from the Labour Party long before the current scandal). He has said that he would describe himself as a Stalinist (death toll: 30 million) if it was not "making a rod for my own back". He describes the day the Soviet Union fell as "the worst day of my life". He supports the death penalty. He praised General Musharraf's coup in Pakistan, saying that "in poor third world countries like Pakistan, politics is too important to be left to petty squabbling politicians. Pakistan is always on the brink of breaking apart into its widely disparate components. Only the armed forces can really be counted on to hold such a country together ... Democracy is a means, not an end in itself." (I know Bush and Blair have also praised Musharraf; they too should be ashamed).


----------



## sihhi (Jul 20, 2011)

Hari's website really is down. Can someone please post this on a blog where people will see it:



> 5. I think I have another cut'n'paste section by Johann Hari culled from US right-wing email circulars
> 
> See here: http://www.snopes.com/politics/war/combatend.asp
> 
> ...



Hari's article with unsourced claims is on the paper website

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...raq-comes-from-western-defeatists-584995.html



> .. *nearly all of Iraq's 400 courts* are functioning.
> 
> .. the Iraqi judiciary is fully independent.
> 
> ...



That's six unsourced claims in just one paragraph that all appear in that US right wing email.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 20, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Now that's a rolling news digital TV channel we can all get behind.


 
Dick.


----------



## DrRingDing (Jul 20, 2011)

Remember him bleating that Oxbridge wasn't a bastion for the privileged?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

What do you have in mind to "revenge" that idiocy?


----------



## King Biscuit Time (Jul 21, 2011)

@holysmoke - on Twitter said:
			
		

> After talking to a friend of Hari, I believe it's time to cut him a bit of slack. He seems to be in a bad way.



.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 21, 2011)

Well, he should have thought of that before.


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 21, 2011)

If Damian Thompson is saying that then he must have heard something pretty serious, I am aware he was onto a lead that could bring down Kelner too, potentially.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 21, 2011)

@holysmoke - on Twitter said:
			
		

> After talking to a friend of Hari, I believe it's time to cut him a bit of slack. He seems to be in a bad way.


good


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 21, 2011)

King Biscuit Time said:


> .


boo fucking hoo


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 21, 2011)

So, apparently Hari is on the brink of suicide.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 21, 2011)

Jesus.... I for one would rather the guy grew a pair, owned up to his shenanigans and tried to put things right again in whatever capacity he might. Suicide over this? Selfish fucking twat.


----------



## Random (Jul 21, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Jesus.... I for one would rather the guy grew a pair, owned up to his shenanigans and tried to put things right again in whatever capacity he might. Suicide over this? Selfish fucking twat.


 
Maybe he's just making a move for victim staus. Everyone ganged up on me, I feel awful, etc. He must feel fairly terrible and sorry for himself, given the way he's gotten used to being important and all.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 21, 2011)

Random said:


> Maybe he's just making a move for victim staus. Everyone ganged up on me, I feel awful, etc. He must feel fairly terrible and sorry for himself, given the way he's gotten used to being important and all.


 
Of course he is, whether he admits to it or not. Fucking pathetic.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Jul 21, 2011)

Is suicide always a selfish act?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 21, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Is suicide always a selfish act?


 
Oh dear.... FWIW despite his many grave failings as a professional (and possibly as a person) I'd hate to see him off himself over this.


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 21, 2011)

Latest Private Eye puts the boot in with quite a few accounts of Hari making stuff up. Doesn't look good. He could even get his Orwell Award revoked - the irony being pretty obvious.


----------



## TruXta (Jul 21, 2011)

He should do the honourable thing - own up to any and all bullshit, take a looooong sabbatical and figure out what to do next.


----------



## revlon (Jul 21, 2011)

taffboy gwyrdd said:


> Latest Private Eye puts the boot in with quite a few accounts of Hari making stuff up. Doesn't look good. He could even get his Orwell Award revoked - *the irony being pretty obvious*.


 
orwell also looked like a fat lesbian?


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Jul 21, 2011)




----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

TruXta said:


> He should do the honourable thing - own up to any and all bullshit, take a looooong sabbatical and figure out what to do next.



He already did that in that vid I posted. "I did something wrong and idiotic" he said. Pretty clear.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

Did he fuck. What does 'any and all' mean? It doesn't mean offer a mealy mouthed attack on the people who caught your lies out posed as some sort of apology for the stuff he'd been caught for_ at that point._


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

Mr angry obviously has a different opinion.

I see you've edited your post to add more drivel.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

That does seem to be a very strange apology, though. 'I've learned a valuable lesson,' he says. So did he not understand before that his plagiarism and misrepresentation were wrong? He doesn't seem like much of an intellectual, if so. He apparently needed to hear what Chomsky had to say about the Iraq war to realise he was wrong about that too. Seems like a bit of a fool to me.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

Declaring himself "idiotic" covers it.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

When someone admits they are wrong, imo you have no choice but to forgive them. However, he still clearly thinks of himself as a person to be listened to. I agree with TruXta on that - a period of silence from him would be appropriate now.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

What about when someone tries to cover up _what_ it was they got wrong and the _extent_ of having got things wrong (as well as a host of other stuff) whilst offering that line? 

The truly shocking thing about that video was the wild applause he received as he walked out - treated like a hero.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What about when someone tries to cover up _what_ it was they got wrong and the _extent_ of having got things wrong (as well as a host of other stuff) whilst offering that line?


 
Has he done that? If so, clearly his apology is worthless. He is merely saying that he is sorry he was caught.

tbh he's in a hard place in terms of his future career. Admitting his guilt but trying to pretend he didn't think he was doing wrong shows him up as a complete idiot. Admitting that he knew full-well that what he was doing was wrong leaves him with little choice but to resign any position he has.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

Yes he has done that in his written apology an din that video. Since then stuff has come out over and over and over, it seemed to be almost daily in the week after that video was posted - not to mention conspiring with his then editor to lie about no one ever complaining about his work.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

Demanding that he do the "honourable thing" and now it's moved to stfu, Well, according to others on this thread his websites down, so that's being pretty "silent" IMHO.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

He wasn't silent in that speech, though, was he? 

Indeed, he even seemed to be _trying to teach others the valuable lesson he'd learned from it_. Kin cheek!


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

The diazepam has probably kicked in big time now. He can expect suicidal thoughts, nightmares, paranoia, sensitivity to loud mouths, potential seizure and rage when he decides to come off them little fuckers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Demanding that he do the "honourable thing" and now it's moved to stfu, Well, according to others on this thread his websites down, so that's being pretty "silent" IMHO.


 
Look, we know that you're spiritual kin with hari, but can you show us what "honourable thing" he's done as regards this? He hasn't stepped down? He continued writing in for the Independent in fact.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 21, 2011)

TruXta said:


> He should do the honourable thing - own up to any and all bullshit, take a looooong sabbatical and figure out what to do next.


 
The one thing holding me back from feeling some basic human sympathy for him at the moment is the thought of him gracing us with his opinions on newsnight in a few years time.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 21, 2011)

.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Look, we know that you're spiritual kin with hari, but can you show us what "honourable thing" he's done as regards this? He hasn't stepped down? He continued writing in for the Independent in fact.





The poor fucker will be in a dark corner somewhere.

I've already said what I felt needed to be said and as I understand it he has now resigned.

Don't let me get in the way of this little witch-hunt any further.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

As you understand it? No, you're wrong. What leads you to say that he's resigned? What is it about this thread that makes people post without bothering to read it?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

The bile that emanates from it?

If Hari hasn't resigned then he should.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 21, 2011)

I think it's laziness mixed in with ignorance and naivity myself.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

Yes, I'm 'lazy, naive and ignorant', whilst submitting a zillion documents I've written and preparing for the fight of my life. Do me a favour eh?


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 21, 2011)

Presumably if he had resigned, the Independent wouldn't have bothered to suspend him.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

And you can stuff your sarcasm.


----------



## killer b (Jul 21, 2011)

when i was training to be a journalist, i found myself falling into similar traps to hari - if you aren't brilliant at interviewing people & not very confident about it, it seems easier to take a bit from here, a bit from there to put your story together. although it ends up making more work in the end...

it's the reason i ended up deciding journalism wasn't really for me tbh. it's obviously not for him either.


----------



## Corax (Jul 21, 2011)

If he's really had enough of it, he's quite capable of removing himself from the public eye.  If he genuinely feels that way, he could retrain as anything he wanted and live a normal life doing 8+ hours of work each day for the kind of salary the rest of us get by on, without the perks that a life in the media bring with them.  He's not interesting enough to be hounded to the end of his days; within a couple of years it would just be a bit of interesting background he could tell people as an ice-breaker at corporate team-building events lol.

He's a 32 year old Oxbridge graduate, it's not like he doesn't have any other options.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2011)

killer b said:


> when i was training to be a journalist, i found myself falling into similar traps to hari - if you aren't brilliant at interviewing people & not very confident about it, it seems easier to take a bit from here, a bit from there to put your story together. although it ends up making more work in the end...
> 
> it's the reason i ended up deciding journalism wasn't really for me tbh. it's obviously not for him either.


 
What - you felt the temptation to repeatedly distort, plagiarise and invent quotes over a period of years? Steady on.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Declaring himself "idiotic" covers it.


 
To be frank, his apology sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught" than "I'm sorry I falsified and plagiarised".


----------



## killer b (Jul 21, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> What - you felt the temptation to repeatedly distort, plagiarise and invent quotes over a period of years? Steady on.


 
Well, no. No excuses... But I can see how a heady mixture of incompetence, stupidity & vanity got him where he is.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2011)

People who get caught out deceiving people _are_ often really, honestly upset about getting caught, particularly if they've built up a reputation (including assorted prizes) on the basis of what they've been bullshitting about that's now collapsing.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2011)

killer b said:


> when i was training to be a journalist, i found myself falling into similar traps to hari - if you aren't brilliant at interviewing people & not very confident about it, it seems easier to take a bit from here, a bit from there to put your story together. although it ends up making more work in the end...
> 
> it's the reason i ended up deciding journalism wasn't really for me tbh. it's obviously not for him either.


 
Thing is, there's two ways to work it:

1) You do your research, and you attribute material to the sources you've used, or

2) You write your piece so that it gives an overwhelming impression that all the material in it was sourced via your interview.

Now, Hari *may* have a little excuse in that being a "star" journo, he was expected to churn out this stuff by the bucket-load, but he didn't *have* to take option 2, just as he didn't have to selectively reinterpret parts of actual interviews he conducted. He *chose* to do it, and many journos don't.

Obviously, when you were a cub, you were another potential Hari.


----------



## killer b (Jul 21, 2011)

I was a shit journalist, tbf.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

killer b said:


> I was a shit journalist, tbf.


 
That doesn't stop most of them. There are an awful lot of shit journalists, sad to say.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2011)

killer b said:


> Well, no. No excuses... But I can see how a heady mixture of incompetence, stupidity & vanity got him where he is.


 
Well, it's not like it's somehow entirely out of explicable human behaviour that somebody might do that sort of thing, no. It is still worthy of condemnation. I don't think I'm really taking the moral high ground, for instance, by saying that I'm pretty sure I wouldn't have done the same. You wouldn't either as you point out.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2011)

killer b said:


> I was a shit journalist, tbf.


 
Me too. I was a slightly better sub, though.

E2A: Proper title at the time "editorial assistant". Basically asst to the sub ed and taking care of business when he was pissed and/or asleep.


----------



## killer b (Jul 21, 2011)

Totally. I certainly wasn't trying to suggest we should let him off the hook.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Jul 21, 2011)

.


----------



## killer b (Jul 21, 2011)

Oddly enough, I wasn't a bad sub either...


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 21, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The poor fucker will be in a dark corner somewhere.
> 
> I've already said what I felt needed to be said and as I understand it he has now resigned.
> 
> Don't let me get in the way of this little witch-hunt any further.


 
He hasn't resigned, he has been suspended for two months while under investigation. Despite everything he refuses to resign. Sympathy for the devil here...


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 21, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Now, Hari *may* have a little excuse in that being a "star" journo, he was expected to churn out this stuff by the bucket-load


 
Actually, as a star columnist Hari only had to write 2 pieces a week so had more than enough time to earn his generous wage with original and truthful work.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 21, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Actually, as a star columnist Hari only had to write 2 pieces a week so had more than enough time to earn his generous wage with original and truthful work.


 
In which case he's even less excuse for acting the cunt!


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> To be frank, his apology sounds more like "I'm sorry I was caught" than "I'm sorry I falsified and plagiarised".



I thought differently, but there you go.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 21, 2011)

I bet he's really, honestly sorry he falsified and plagiarised, because without that he'd not have got caught doing it.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> He hasn't resigned, he has been suspended for two months while under investigation. Despite everything he refuses to resign. Sympathy for the devil here...



You're a bit late to the party, that's already been pointed out. If you hang about for a mo butchersapron will be along to give you a bollocking for not reading the thread.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I bet he's really, honestly sorry he falsified and plagiarised, because without that he'd not have got caught doing it.


 
There's that word "idiotic" he'll have at the fore-front of his mind till the day he dies to consider.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 21, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Actually, as a star columnist Hari only had to write 2 pieces a week so had more than enough time to earn his generous wage with original and truthful work.



What? At the Star? You are joking right?


----------



## sihhi (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The poor fucker will be in a dark corner somewhere.
> 
> I've already said what I felt needed to be said and as I understand it he has now resigned.
> 
> Don't let me get in the way of this little witch-hunt any further.


 
Shame on you for calling this a witch hunt. 

He helped carry on the witch hunt of anti-globalisation protestors, antiwar / peace movement activists, Tariq Ali, John Pilger, Noam Chomsky, Toni Negri etc etc. It's important to see who is attacking who.

Hari-ism about Dubai http://www.thenational.ae/news/worl...i-to-task-over-portrayal-of-dubai?pageCount=0



> "All over the city," he claimed, "there are maxed-out expats sleeping secretly in the sand-dunes or the airport or in their cars."
> 
> The "utter implausibility of this section of the article", wrote Saul, "makes it hard to take anything seriously" - including the interview that closed the article, supposedly conducted with an anonymous and curiously loquacious Filipina serving behind the counter at a Pizza Hut restaurant.
> 
> ...


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The poor fucker will be in a dark corner somewhere.


good



> I've already said what I felt needed to be said and as I understand it he has now resigned.
> 
> Don't let me get in the way of this little witch-hunt any further.


how dare you contrast the banal inventions of hari with the burning of women at the stake


----------



## OneStrike (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> What? At the Star? You are joking right?



Heh


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> how dare you contrast the banal inventions of hari with the burning of women at the stake



Now that's what I call an invention.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

sihhi said:


> Shame on you for calling this a witch hunt.
> 
> He helped carry on the witch hunt of anti-globalisation protestors, antiwar / peace movement activists, Tariq Ali, John Pilger, Noam Chomsky, Toni Negri etc etc. It's important to see who is attacking who.
> 
> Hari-ism about Dubai http://www.thenational.ae/news/worl...i-to-task-over-portrayal-of-dubai?pageCount=0



Dubai, ruled by the Al Maktoum family since 1833, with many of its foreign workers living in conditions "less than human".

Any sources about the "witch-hunt" you ascribe to Hari?


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> What? At the Star? You are joking right?


 
At the Indy, where he is a 'star columnist'. Do keep up.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> At the Indy, where he is a 'star columnist'. Do keep up.



This is the post of yours I was commenting on:




			
				lazyhoack said:
			
		

> ]Actually, as a* star *columnist Hari only had to write 2 pieces a week so had more than enough time to earn his generous wage with original and truthful work.



My emphasis.

It's you who needs to "keep up". With your very own posts.


----------



## belboid (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> This is the post of yours I was commenting on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
you're not seriously trying to argue that, are you?  It's just silly.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm in a silly mood today, but I take your point.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Now that's what I call an invention.


 
Nah. We have historical proof, thanks to one of the Stuart monarchs being a bit of (as are most monarchs, to be scrupulously fair) a wanker. The who "burn them at the stake" thing was, after all, a Scottish punishment. South of the border, they were hanged, and in a majority of the German _lande_, strangled.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Now that's what I call an invention.


 



			
				mark twain said:
			
		

> Mark Twain, a long time resident of Heidelberg, wrote these thoughts about the witch hunt in his Europe and Everywhere notes, “During many ages there were witches.  The Bible said so.  The Bible commanded that they should not be allowed to live.  Therefore the Church, after eight hundred years, gathered up its halters, thumb-screws, and firebrands, and set about its holy work in earnest.  She worked hard at it night and day during nine centuries and imprisoned, tortured, hanged, and burned whole hordes and armies of witches, and washed the Christian world clean with their foul blood. Then it was discovered that there was no such thing as witches, and never had been. One does not know whether to laugh or to cry…”


 http://mygermantravels.com/2011/04/german-witch-hunt/


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah. We have historical proof, thanks to one of the Stuart monarchs being a bit of (as are most monarchs, to be scrupulously fair) a wanker. The who "burn them at the stake" thing was, after all, a Scottish punishment. South of the border, they were hanged, and in a majority of the German _lande_, strangled.


 
scottish, france, switzerland, scandinavia, ireland...


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 22, 2011)

Pickman's model said:


> scottish, france, switzerland, scandinavia, ireland...


 
More fun to blame the Jocks, though.


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> This is the post of yours I was commenting on:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Do you understand capitalisation and the difference between a Star journalist and a star journalist?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah. We have historical proof, thanks to one of the Stuart monarchs being a bit of (as are most monarchs, to be scrupulously fair) a wanker. The who "burn them at the stake" thing was, after all, a Scottish punishment. South of the border, they were hanged, and in a majority of the German _lande_, strangled.



I understand all that. An interesting book I read on the subject (sorry, I can't remember the title of it?), wrote of women with knowledge of healing processes, handed down from generations of women, being victims of these witch-hunts. It was put that these women were seen as a 'threat' to the emerging male, medical establishment and why they were abused, tortured, hanged, put to the stake, and very likely, all manner of other atrocities heaped upon them.

The invention I was referring to was Pickman's use of hyperbole to attack me.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Do you understand capitalisation and the difference between a Star journalist and a star journalist?



I do now.


----------



## sihhi (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> Dubai, ruled by the Al Maktoum family since 1833, with many of its foreign workers living in conditions "less than human".
> 
> Any sources about the "witch-hunt" you ascribe to Hari?


 
You used the term, Hari has distorted, misquoted and lied about all of those groups and people/their ideas painting them out as anti-democrats. See earlier in the thread.

Where is the evidence of the Dubai homeless expatriates? "maxed-out" expatriates just went and left Dubai in 2009, thousands of people left and the landlords couldn't find people to fill their houses. The conversation doesn't sound right. It's in direct speech marks but the speaker goes from saying "guy" to "boy" about a 27 year old. He is sentenced to 6 months but he will be out after 9 months. Does none of this strike you as iffy given Hari's record of falsification?



> Karen Andrews can't speak. Every time she starts to tell her story, she puts her head down and crumples. She is slim and angular and has the faded radiance of the once-rich, even though her clothes are as lined as her forehead now. I find her in the car park of one of Dubai's finest international hotels, where she is living, in her Range Rover. She has been sleeping here for months, thanks to the kindness of the Bangladeshi car park attendants who don't have the heart to move her on. This is not where she thought her Dubai dream would end.
> 
> Her story comes out in stutters, over four hours. At times, her old voice - witty and warm - breaks through. Karen came here from Canada when her boyfriend was offered a job in the senior division of a famous multinational. "When he said Dubai, I said - if you want me to wear black and quit booze, baby, you've got the wrong girl. But he asked me to give it a chance. And I loved him."
> 
> ...


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

I'm questioning your use of the term?




			
				sihhi said:
			
		

> He helped carry on the witch hunt of anti-globalisation protestors, antiwar / peace movement activists,...



I don't dispute what you post on Hari's article about Dubai, nonetheless, the point that it treats it's foreign workers "less than human", as expressed by 'Human Rights Watch' no less, still stands, as does the fact that Dubai has been ruled by one family since 1833.


----------



## sihhi (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I'm questioning your use of the term?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't dispute what you post on Hari's article about Dubai, nonetheless, the point that it treats it's foreign workers "less than human", as expressed by 'Human Rights Watch' no less, still stands, as does the fact that Dubai has been ruled by one family since 1833.


 
Sure it stands but the inconsistencies in the interview mean those aspects of the article can easily be dismissed.


----------



## frogwoman (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I'm questioning your use of the term?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't dispute what you post on Hari's article about Dubai, nonetheless, the point that it treats it's foreign workers "less than human", as expressed by 'Human Rights Watch' no less, still stands, as does the fact that Dubai has been ruled by one family since 1833.


 
And because of the damage hari's done it will mean that dodgy shit about dubai or whatever will be able to be able to be more easily dismissed as the rantings of a fantasist


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2011)

audiotech said:


> The poor fucker will be in a dark corner somewhere.
> 
> I've already said what I felt needed to be said and as I understand it he has now resigned.
> 
> Don't let me get in the way of this little *witch-hunt* any further.


 
Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you put yourself on ignore?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

If you say so.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2011)

It was a question not a statement.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Are you being deliberately obtuse or have you put yourself on ignore?



I would think that's beyond even NOTW hackers?


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2011)

That is a statement and not a question.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> It was a question not a statement.



That was to frogwoman.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> That is a statement and not a question.



You deserve a prize.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2011)

Audiotech - Has the irony of your position passed you by?  You are accusing people of carrying out a witch hunt for having made some well researched criticisms of a journalist who appears to have played fast and loose with the facts in his own published work.  Have you even read the Negri article?  Leaving the plagiarised quotes taken out of context and the allegations that he constructed an alternative context to the interview that makes Negri look like an arrogant prick.  Hari gives credence to the claim that Negri was behind the Red Brigades.  That is almost as absurd as him making a reference to anarchists being accused of the Bologna train station bombing without mentioning that they were actually carried out Neo Fascists working on behalf of elements within the Italian state.  At no point has Hari acknowledged this.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 22, 2011)

I didn't mean 'acknowledged this' - I meant to write acknowledge the substance of the allegation of plagarisim:  taking out of context and allegedly contriving a new context that colours ourview of the subject.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Audiotech - Has the irony of your position passed you by?  You are accusing people of carrying out a witch hunt for having made some well researched criticisms of a journalist who appears to have played fast and loose with the facts in his own published work.  Have you even read the Negri article?  Leaving the plagiarised quotes taken out of context and the allegations that he constructed an alternative context to the interview that makes Negri look like an arrogant prick.  Hari gives credence to the claim that Negri was behind the Red Brigades.  That is almost as absurd as him making a reference to anarchists being accused of the Bologna train station bombing without mentioning that they were actually carried out Neo Fascists working on behalf of elements within the Italian state.  At no point has Hari acknowledged this.



OK, I'm with you "strategy of tension". "Operation Gladio".

I haven't read the Negri article no, I'm assuming it's posted on this thread? Yes?

Point to it and I'll have a look.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, but "witch-hunts" I know about from present, personal experience and to add, it's not all "well researched criticisms" on this thread though is it?


----------



## audiotech (Jul 22, 2011)

..


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> OK, I'm with you "strategy of tension". "Operation Gladio".
> 
> I haven't read the Negri article no, I'm assuming it's posted on this thread? Yes?
> 
> ...


You twat.
No wonder you're defending Hari you're the same type of smug liberal moron he is. You accuse people of which hunts when you can't even be bothered to read a single article (linked to on the first page).


----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2011)

I'm a communist who combats institutions, not individuals. In this case I'll make an exception though - knobhead.


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jul 23, 2011)

I really can't understand what your problem is here audiotech. If the well founded criticisms of Hari can be described as a 'witchhunt' then what are Hari's evidence-free hatchet jobs on comminists and anarchists?


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> ...
> I haven't read the Negri article no, I'm assuming it's posted on this thread? Yes?
> 
> Point to it and I'll have a look.
> ...


 
With research skills like this you should be a journalist.  I hear their is a vacancy at the Independent.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I'm a communist who combats institutions, not individuals.



That's one piss-poor excuse for not reading an article!


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Jul 23, 2011)




----------



## audiotech (Jul 23, 2011)

I've already given reasons why haven't had time to read the article. Reading it, or not doesn't in anyway change my opinion on this attack on Hari, an individual, nor alter the fact that this thread includes some well, just out and out abuse really, revelling in Hari's situation. I merely pointed out that this is not really a Marxist position to take on the issue, but don't let me get in the way of any more of this puerile bollocks.


----------



## revlon (Jul 23, 2011)

SpineyNorman said:


> I really can't understand what your problem is here audiotech. If the well founded criticisms of Hari can be described as a 'witchhunt' then what are Hari's evidence-free hatchet jobs on comminists and anarchists?


 
kinda like sending out a massive expedition force to Yellowstone park to spend hours and hours with all the latest heating seeking infra red surveillance equipment to discover what bears do.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I've already given reasons why haven't had time to read the article. Reading it, or not doesn't in anyway change my opinion on this attack on Hari, an individual, nor alter the fact that this thread includes some well, just out and out abuse really, revelling in Hari's situation. I merely pointed out that this is not really a Marxist position to take on the issue, but don't let me get in the way of any more of this puerile bollocks.


 No you haven't. And you're wrong. A marxist postion means taking account of the facts - no matter how unpalatable. Fuck off.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 23, 2011)

revlon said:


> kinda like sending out a massive expedition force to Yellowstone park to spend hours and hours with all the latest heating seeking infra red surveillance equipment to discover what bears do.


 
_Hey people do bad things. Let's not expose them._ Is that any way to run a paper?


----------



## revlon (Jul 23, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _Hey people do bad things. Let's not expose them._ Is that any way to run a paper?


 
_journalists make stuff up hold the front page_

_and they lie about it pages 3/4/5 and 16_


----------



## redsquirrel (Jul 24, 2011)

audiotech said:


> I've already given reasons why haven't had time to read the article. Reading it, or not doesn't in anyway change my opinion on this attack on Hari, an individual, nor alter the fact that this thread includes some well, just out and out abuse really, revelling in Hari's situation. I merely pointed out that this is not really a Marxist position to take on the issue, but don't let me get in the way of any more of this puerile bollocks.


You've already spent more time coming up with crap excises about why you don't have the time to read the article than it would take to actually read the bloody thing.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Fuck off.



You fuck off. Oh, I remember you did that once and said you would never be back. Now you're here again with the same old, same old.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 24, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> You've already spent more time coming up with crap excises about why you don't have the time to read the article than it would take to actually read the bloody thing.



I will in my own time Corporal Clott.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 24, 2011)

Never happened as you have had pointed out to you on numerous occasions now. Which makes tour post dishonest.  Say something for once. Without stealing it from another site preferably.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 24, 2011)

redsquirrel said:


> You've already spent more time coming up with crap *excises* about why you don't have the time to read the article than it would take to actually read the bloody thing.


 
He's a revenooer?

Kill him!!!


----------



## audiotech (Jul 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Never happened as you have had pointed out to you on numerous occasions now. Which makes tour post dishonest.  Say something for once. Without stealing it from another site preferably.



Stolen:

Lie lie lie lie liar you lie lie lie lie
I think you're funny, you're funny ha ha
I don't need it don't need your blah blah
Should've realised I know what you are


----------



## articul8 (Jul 24, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _Hey people do bad things. Let's not expose them._ Is that any way to run a paper?


 
It's how most of them are run


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 25, 2011)

articul8 said:


> It's how most of them are run


 
So we should just ignore it when they get caught out?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2011)

wtf? They were going to take it away and then they get blackmailed by the Independent. Whose then editor Simon Kelner is covering his own arse. Not that it matters that much.



> Statement on Council of the Orwell Prize meeting about Johann Hari
> 
> July 25, 2011
> 
> ...


----------



## Random (Jul 25, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> wtf? They were going to take it away and then they get blackmailed by the Independent. Whose then editor Simon Kelner is covering his own arse. Not that it matters that much.


 
Hari threatened to kill himself if they took it away?


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2011)

Looks to me like the prize givers had made their decision and were prepared to back it up (as they would have to -line by line if need be), the independent is now looking like it's not doing an inquiry but a get out of jail operation.


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 25, 2011)

A few more weeks for audiotech to find the time to read that blogpost.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2011)

I love optimism.


----------



## revlon (Jul 25, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> So we should just ignore it when they get caught out?


 
should 'we' spend the same amount of time/energy exposing the fact that Sir Baskerville Hound didn't actually have sex with Lady Veranda Ball at eton like wot he sed in his column in the spectator? 

Does it matter?_ How much does it matter?_

The only reason to expose hari is that - his actions somehow reflect badly on journalism, his actions somehow reflect badly on 'the left wing', he really is an unlikable posh twat.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 25, 2011)

_In italics_

You're wrong btw, my personal enjoment is to the fore.


----------



## revlon (Jul 25, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> _In italics_
> 
> You're wrong btw, my personal enjoment is to the fore.


 
fair play. Put in the unlikable posh twat category.


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 26, 2011)

So to get the thread back on topic, it looks like he has been stripped of the Orwell Prize.  Hopefully that gives butchersapron a healthy dose of schadenfreude if nothing else.


----------



## sihhi (Jul 26, 2011)

There's zero joy to be had, we- the public - are doing the work of journalism teachers and editors without being paid.
Will Johann Hari or Simon Kelner give up any of their wealth?

I didn't know Kelner was such a liar either: @JohannHari101 has worked at @theIndynews for 10 years. In that time, we have not had a single complaint about his misrepresenting anyone' Just wow.


----------



## revol68 (Jul 26, 2011)

sihhi said:


> There's zero joy to be had, we- the public - are doing the work of journalism teachers and editors without being paid.
> Will Johann Hari or Simon Kelner give up any of their wealth?
> 
> I didn't know Kelner was such a liar either: @JohannHari101 has worked at @theIndynews for 10 years. In that time, we have not had a single complaint about his misrepresenting anyone' Just wow.


 
or maybe reporting and comment are going the way of the music industry and is for an increasing number of people is losing whatever authority it had, interesting piece here from DSG on such matters.

DSG would neither expect or desire to be paid for their role in nailing that lil cunt Hari.


----------



## sihhi (Jul 26, 2011)

revol68 said:


> or maybe reporting and comment are going the way of the music industry and is for an increasing number of people is losing whatever authority it had, interesting piece here from DSG on such matters.
> 
> DSG would neither expect or desire to be paid for their role in nailing that lil cunt Hari.



Who are DSG? Internet bods. Fine, but other people have done Simon Kelner's "job" for him and people should demand something from him. My point was if you choose to take on a Cambridge Double First graduate straight onto the comment page of the Guardian then Independent without training him in factchecking and corroboration [doesn't necessarily have to be a degree] and then do nothing about complaints and lie that none were ever made you shouldn't be paid according to sources from 2000.



> Hacks at the Independent say that Simon Kelner, its editor, receives about £250,000 - roughly £50,000 more than his predecessors Rosie Boycott and Andrew Marr.


http://www.newstatesman.com/200005220006

Simon Kelner has made _at the very least_ £2.5 million at his tenure. IN addition to leading the high-life visiting Tony Blair in the early days, Gordon Brown, Nick Clegg, first class flights, award shows with other people serving you etc etc.







Ultimately I guess Harigate is a sign of the weakness of our movement. The NUJ can't impose demands for training or full pay on trainee posts even where the newspaper is left wing. Johann Hari himself was never a member anyway. But he was treated as an honourable leftwinger for a long time invited to the Progressive London conference, invited to student left-liberal meetings.


No offence in this, but I didn't get much of the linked article at all. 



> The system of parliamentary democracy and capitalist media as it exists in Britain simply wasn’t designed as a transparent system, and technological developments, hitting at the same time as a restructuring crisis, are forcing open those contradictions. Faced with its Napster Moment, the parliamentary system has two options- either to acknowledge the changing conditions, or, like the music industry, to plough ahead with the current model, and use increasingly repressive and authoritarian tactics to enforce its legitimacy amongst its client base.



Parliamentary democracy is strong, the capitalist media is strong, we are weak. That's it.

I'm not sure there is any shift in power at all apart from US is losing, China is winning.



> The hacking scandal isn’t an event that will lead to a cleaning up of the media and a return to the “values” the NOTW hacks seemingly undermined; rather, it is the spreading of a process of delegitimisation running concurrently across societies worldwide, from the authoritarian regimes of North Africa to the War on Drugs in the US, or the rise of Lulzsec.



Lulzsec? No!



> The wider question that has been passing round militants in the DSG network: Is Murdoch’s “Wikileaks moment” symptomatic of the Establishment’s Napster Moment? The *corruption and nepotism of the closed circle of politicians, press and police was a disgusting necessity for the efficient running of the state in the interests of the status quo*, but it worked because it was hidden, neatly covered with the facade of the consensus of progressive patriotism, classless society rhetoric and the meritocracy. This _conspiracy was a vital tool of governance_, but now a precedent of bottom-up transparency has been set, whereby those of us who are excluded from the circles of power have the technological tools (and will) for the constant revelation of such scandals. An endless appetite for transparency, causing an infinite loop of scandal, resulting in a revolving door of administrations. The system of parliamentary democracy and capitalist media as it exists in Britain simply wasn’t designed as a transparent system, and technological developments, hitting at the same time as a restructuring crisis, are forcing open those contradictions. Faced with its Napster Moment, the parliamentary system has two options- either to acknowledge the changing conditions, or, like the music industry, to plough ahead with the current model, and use increasingly repressive and authoritarian tactics to enforce its legitimacy amongst its client base.



That conspiracy is not vital at all, normal non-closed capitalist media is fine too. In fact it helps revive the liberal press when they are attacked by politicians like when Blair called the Independent not a good newspaper but 'a viewspaper'. It's just swings and roundabouts.


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 26, 2011)

revol68 said:


> DSG would neither expect or desire to be paid for their role in nailing that lil cunt Hari.


 
I don't think you can assume to speak on their behalf.


----------



## audiotech (Jul 27, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> A few more weeks for audiotech to find the time to read that blogpost.



When I've finished this accident report. Don't ask.


----------



## revol68 (Jul 27, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> I don't think you can assume to speak on their behalf.


 
I can assume from their stated politics.


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2011)

The Hari emails about his CAR trip


----------



## FreddyB (Jul 27, 2011)

Hari's saved. The part scab Hundal is defending him http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/0...kers-dispute-allegations-against-johann-hari/


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 27, 2011)

FreddyB said:


> Hari's saved. The part scab Hundal is defending him http://liberalconspiracy.org/2011/0...kers-dispute-allegations-against-johann-hari/


 
Actually, those emails are even worse for Hari - http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/damianthompson/100098789/johann-hari-in-africa-the-crucial-emails/


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 27, 2011)

Yep, they are - i reckon Thompson kept them part back in order for some muppet like hundal to jump in - he must have known those other emails were doing the rounds the last few days. Even funnier is that loads of Hari's liberal defenders have jumped back into the fray, misled by the spin Hundal has put on it. They've been mugged _again_.


----------



## lazyhack (Jul 27, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yep, they are - i reckon Thompson kept them part back in order for some muppet like hundal to jump in - he must have known those other emails were doing the rounds the last few days. Even funnier is that loads of Hari's liberal defenders have jumped back into the fray, misled by the spin Hundal has put on it. They've been mugged _again_.


 
I think Thompson got clearance to publish the emails after Hundal published his ridiculous batch. The charity worker was keen not to get too involved again. 

Doing something like this might prompt the person sitting on emails revealing who David Rose really is to go nuclear.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 27, 2011)

One detail of his Central African Republic thing that stuck in my mind was that Hari claimed that children whose parents had been killed were carrying their parents' severed heads around with them. 

Because that is exactly what a traumatised African orphan would do. 

Of course, no bothered to fisk that one, because it's only Africa.


----------



## FreddyB (Jul 27, 2011)

Full of savages who do all kinds of crazy things Idris. Hari bringing us back these tales from darkest Africa is a real asset


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 27, 2011)

It's as if we had another Conrad walking among us. (NB, should that be 'amongst'?)


----------



## ericjarvis (Jul 27, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> It's as if we had another Conrad walking among us. (NB, should that be 'amongst'?)


 
NO!

It should be "It's as if we had another Conrad walking amongst penguins in the Antarctic". 

As Johann Hari told me last week, crying into his can of Tennants cheapest, "I’ve also been told that if I go back, I’ll be arrested or turned away at the airport."


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jul 27, 2011)

Idris2002 said:


> It's as if we had another Conrad walking among us. (NB, should that be 'amongst'?)


 
Only if you're referring to Conrad Black, who's also a liar and fantasist.


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 28, 2011)

The committee of retired Polish cavalry officers who do the Splintered Sunrise blog have an interesting post about L'affaire Johann:



> Again and again, we come back to Kelner. He hired a raw young star about whom doubts had already been expressed at the New Statesman, and relentlessly promoted and protected him. Hari didn’t get the firm editorial hand a young journalist needs; his columns don’t seem to have been subjected to fact-checking or serious editing (comparing Hari’s columns on the Indy site with his own site, one sees that Indy editorial broke up his long paragraphs and corrected a few obvious howlers, but little else); he clearly was never given the training or mentoring he needed (and if Hari thought he didn’t need training, Kelner should have insisted). Hari was given plenty of resources – one hears stories of Indy interns doing mountains of photocopying that would then be couriered over to the great man (couriered, I ask you, as if he was Peter fucking Mandelson) – but didn’t give him what he really needed, a guiding hand. More experienced hacks who had concerns about the infant prodigy’s work soon learned that the editor didn’t want to hear these criticisms.



http://splinteredsunrise.wordpress....nn-a-reflection-and-a-bit-of-a-rant/#comments


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 28, 2011)

I didn't realise the Polish cavalry had a division of gaelgoiri (sp?).


----------



## Idris2002 (Jul 29, 2011)

It was like, a metaphor?


----------



## eoin_k (Jul 29, 2011)

Verging on an oxymoron?


----------



## TruXta (Jul 31, 2011)

A little Indy bird whispered in my ear that Hari-kari is getting the boot soon.... Take with a pinch of salt of course as it's nowt but a newsroom rumour.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 1, 2011)

Even LibCon has turned its back on him


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 1, 2011)

Yes, that article makes things significantly worse for Hari. Originally the Der Speigel one just looked like he was being a lazy rip-off merchant, now he looks like an intellectually bankrupt quote chopper. Should say that the bloke who wrote that had a falling out with hundal over publishing it. How very _brave_ of suny.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2011)

Anyone got a summary of the latest allegations etc that appears in todays private eye?


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 2, 2011)

Indy threatened orwell prize with 2 legal letters citing 'human rights act'. The Eye also points out that the interns letters are more fuel to the fire, not a last minute redemption.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2011)

Ta. I just want him to come out fighting and die in flames now.


----------



## Brainaddict (Aug 2, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Yes, that article makes things significantly worse for Hari. Originally the Der Speigel one just looked like he was being a lazy rip-off merchant, now he looks like an intellectually bankrupt quote chopper. Should say that the bloke who wrote that had a falling out with hundal over publishing it. How very _brave_ of suny.


 
I assumed they had just spotted which way the wind was blowing  Sunny in particular seems good at that.


Has been interesting to see the Hari affair reveal on blogs and twitter how many 'leading' writers and liberal activists are friends with each other.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 2, 2011)

How many right wing ones are well. The Anne leslie skulling it on TV early on the day patting him on the head.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 2, 2011)

Brainaddict said:


> Has been interesting to see the Hari affair reveal on blogs and twitter how many 'leading' writers and liberal activists are friends with each other.


 
Same in any industry, you work with people one place then bump into them another, drink together after work, etc. It is a bit cosy and smug at the top though, I imagine.


----------



## eoin_k (Aug 2, 2011)

The statement by Council of the Orwell Prize is quite entertainingly worded:



> After extensive deliberation, the Council arrived at a clear and unanimous decision, which drew from the combined journalistic and academic expertise of its members...
> The Independent has now requested that the Council consider further representations by Johann Hari before announcing the decision. However, it would appear that Johann Hari is not permitted to make any further representations whilst The Independent’s investigation is conducted.
> In these circumstances, the Council of the Orwell Prize has reluctantly consented to delay any formal announcement as to the status of the 2008 Orwell Prize for Journalism until The Independent has completed its own investigation. We will take no further action and make no further statements until that time.



They haven't felt the need to make it difficult to read between the lines... Unless Johann was planning to appeal their decision not to strip him of the prize. I wonder if he will be expected to give the money back.


----------



## sihhi (Aug 2, 2011)

He hasn't exactly hidden how much he likes/socialises with other journalists/ MPs

Politicians

Just had a really interesting & v heated argument about religion with *Ann Widdecombe* for a documentary coming out in Easter... *I like her*

Other right-wingers I can't stand politically but like to talk to & as people: *Peter Hitchens*,* Boris Johnson*, Nigel Farage...[/B]
Oh some more: *Michael Gove, David Starkey, @frasernels*  - Fraser Nelson 

One of the cleverest people I know is *Michael Gove*, who I disagree with on almost everything

*Rory Stewart * once said one of the strangest & creepiest things anybody has ever said to me. Better not divulge it on Twitter though...

*@marycreagh_mp* His owl bolognaise was DISGUSTING. Everything we ate in Congo was MUCH nicer xx

Journos, literati, luvvies, businessperson

*@caitlinmoran* Your party was a thing of glorious awesomeness xx
*@caitlinmoran* I demand you and *@gracedent* go on Question Time and RE-ENACT Two Girls One Cup

*@GeorgeMonbiot* We MUST lure *Peter Wilby* onto Twitter - he'd love it...

*@sueperkins* Are you coming to the Stonewall party this Friday? xx

Really interesting talk on situation in Pakistan by *my friend* *@fbhutto* here: http://www.themonthly.com.au/video - Benazir's niece

Hooooray! *My friend* @*Deborah*Jane*Orr* - the brilliant Guardian columnist (formerly of the Indie) - has jointed Twitter! Give her Tweet-love...
My friend *Deborah Orr* is getting treatment for breast cancer, and is writing thru it. We all make errors at best of times. Give her a break (being pulled up over sloppy journism)

My friend *@jamiekilstein* did an AWESOME set on the Conan O'Brien Show: http://bit.ly/dQ7SMd

BeetleCarDriver : @johannhari101 What exactly is *@jemima_khan* brilliant at? Love to know...
@johannhari101: Did you read the issue of the New Statesman she edited? it was superb

Yaaaaay! The brilliant *@Jemima_Khan* has joined the Independent as an Associate Editor. Woop-woop!

*Damian_Barr* @johannhari101 which reminds me of that man we talked about over breakfast w Eric whose name escapes me...remind me? 

Gutted to hear *my friend Clive James* has cancer. You HAVE to read his masterpiece Cultural Amnesia: http://tinyurl.com/3g358e9

Woop-woop! My *friend **Liz Lochhead* has been named National Poet of Scotland, and *@pollytoynbee* just joined Twitter! #happydays

@johannhari101 You know if you read your articles whilst imagining Adam Curtis reading them out they are even more brilliant 
@johannhari101: Johann Hari @jarowdowsky Hah! *I know* *Adam Curtis* and once asked him to read out a paragraph. I SCREAMED with joy!

#ff @indiaknight and @lynnbaba - two of my favourite journalists, who I'm sharing a house with in Hay for the book festival. Woop-woop! - *Lynn Barber*
*@indiaknight * No rush! I don't need it for the next fortnight, and may see you before then xx

@*sarahchurchwell *Happy birthday lovely Sarah!

PaulLewis :Looking forward to @vincecable Vs @williamnhutton during the @howlightgetsin debate http://bit.ly/I0jSk Anyone going?
@*PaulLewis* Ooooh I am - shall we have a drink beforehand?

The attempted rape described by my friend *Tanya Gold* here happened in my flat: http://t.co/zRVIECj

My friend @*ianbirrell*- former deputy editor of Indie - is having a Twitter row with Rwandan President @paulkagame as we speak.

@johannhari101 will you speak to me on @lbc973 after 10am UK time and tell me US reaction in NYC? I'm on till 2pm.
@*IainDale* Oh shit - just got this - sorry Ian x

@*harikunzru* Have DMed you x

@VictoriaPeckham You called? xx - *Janice Turner*

Happy birthday to *@JosieLong* - one of the funniest and loveliest people in Britain x

*@laurenlaverne* All hail Queen Lauren xx

*@Marthalanefox* Thanks Martha! SCREAM! Very excited to hear from you x

@*IrshadManji* You were BRILLIANT on Bill Maher. -  See this piece http://johannhari.com/2005/05/28/islam-s-marked-woman-irshad-manji/



UNINTENDED IRONY:

@johannhari101 www.no2av-yes2pr.org are using your image to support voting no to AV. Doesn't that contradict your "vote yes" Indie piece?
johannhari101:  @copydex I asked them not to do it. It's shockingly dishonest of them.


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 3, 2011)

The best name-drop was the day the blogpost exposing hari started really going viral; he pretended at first it wasn't happening and kept tweeting at friends about how he had tried to get Stewart Lee onto twitter. No doubt knowing his stream was being watched by many and hoping mentioning the coolest liberal type in London would get him off the hook. Turns out Stewart Lee hates plagiarism - http://www.stewartlee.co.uk/plagiarists.htm

At one point Steven Fry posted a half-arsed defence of Hari, knowing how hari has been using Hundal as a proxy through all of this I wouldn't be surprised if he was calling in favours from big name friends. Some of them didn't try very hard defending him beyond their initial statements.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Aug 3, 2011)

Quick question. Am I right in thinking Hari never trained as a journalist but was just plucked from the blogosphere?


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 3, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> Quick question. Am I right in thinking Hari never trained as a journalist but was just plucked from the blogosphere?


 
Its stranger than that. As I understand it he never trained as a journalist, got the boot from the New Statesman in 2001/02? Had a handful of pieces in the Guardian and then got taken under Kelner's suspiciously uncritical wing for the guts of ten years. His big thing around 2003 was being the lying scumbag left liberal pro-war hack, inventing quotes from Iraqis asking to be bombed to shit.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 16, 2011)

More in this weeks private eye apparently. (Can't give hat tip without outing person though).


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Why does hari have the courage to break cover? When does the independent whitewash report back?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 22, 2011)

Might try and get an invite to that, could be fun


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 22, 2011)

Laurie Penny's going too


----------



## Edie (Aug 22, 2011)

Jesus he sounds like a fuckin PRICK from them twitter quotes. He's also mates with Caitlin Moran so enough said.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 22, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Laurie Penny's going too



All the more reason to go then!


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

She's got an exclusive interview with johhny pissmop as well.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Aug 22, 2011)

Edie said:


> He's also mates with Caitlin Moran so enough said.



She's awful isn't she.


----------



## Edie (Aug 22, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> She's awful isn't she.


Mate by the time I finished reading that book I couldn't look at her on the cover I wanted to punch her face in so bad. SCREAM! Urgh what a bitch. Chapter 9 was the final fuckin straw, when she went to watch lapdancers with her smug fuckin friend as said that girls who dance should be told to get down off the "podium" and get with the sisterhood. (burlesques fine, natch, cos its fucking middle class). I posted a rant on her 'let's discuss feminism' page of her website, in which I bearly swore (told her to fuck off ONCE!), and it was moderated off.

So yer, I dislike her. And her nobby, made-up-stories, simpering fuckin TWATS of mates. Caitlin Moran.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Aug 22, 2011)

Her middle class mates wrote the glowing reviews of her crap book.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

edie - you realise that yeah is spelt yeah, not yer don't you?


----------



## killer b (Aug 22, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> Her middle class mates wrote the glowing reviews of her crap book.



i just read a hilarious review of it in the guardian (where else?). jesus... some people i know enjoyed it too. they're off the christmas card list...


----------



## Edie (Aug 22, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> edie - you realise that yeah is spelt yeah, not yer don't you?


I say it yer.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

She was the voice of working class women 20 years ago when she liked slowdive. These people just want to be journos don't they?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Edie said:


> I say it yer.


Well  a) you're wrong to do so and b) it doesn't meant that you should spell it like that.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Is that the only word that you write as you speak? If so why have you chosen that one?


----------



## Edie (Aug 22, 2011)

Wtf who gives a toss how I spell it? Weirdo.


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Fook
burnage
burriee


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2011)

i followed moran briefly on the twitters, but she was so self-regarding, even for a twitter user, that she had to go.


----------



## killer b (Aug 22, 2011)

back to hari, why the fuck would anyone invite him to speak at their conference on 'rebellious media'? it doesn't really make them look good does it?


----------



## killer b (Aug 22, 2011)

_ladies & gentlemen, please welcome the keynote speaker to this year's help the aged conference on radical solutions to the problems facing the elderly in modern britain - dr harold shipman!_


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## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

I suspect the independent are whitewashing, so it's safe to...these people talk to each other...oddly enough, one of the the people that Hari lied about is also on the bill.


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## killer b (Aug 22, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I suspect the independent are whitewashing, so it's safe to...these people talk to each other...oddly enough, one of the the people that Hari lied about is also on the bill.


noam? he's a bit grumpy about it too isn't he... any chance of a slap-down?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Depends how they manage it. They're both there...


----------



## _angel_ (Aug 22, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i followed moran briefly on the twitters, but she was so self-regarding, even for a twitter user, that she had to go.


Im used to seeing transgressive violence on the screen as i suppose it's my 'hobby' to watch things that go beyond the pale.


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## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

dogs barking in italian


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Im used to seeing transgressive violence on the screen as i suppose it's my 'hobby' to watch things that go beyond the pale.


hello mr lustbather. why did you keep repeating that line over and over again on twitter?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

Leave him alone. Are you on facebook?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 22, 2011)

is that to lusty or me?


----------



## butchersapron (Aug 22, 2011)

It's a secret


----------



## editor (Aug 22, 2011)

_angel_ said:


> Im used to seeing transgressive violence on the screen as i suppose it's my 'hobby' to watch things that go beyond the pale.


Give it up, son.


----------



## Captain Hurrah (Aug 23, 2011)

killer b said:


> i just read a hilarious review of it in the guardian (where else?). jesus... some people i know enjoyed it too. they're off the christmas card list...



The Spiked review is funny.


----------



## love detective (Aug 23, 2011)

sorry for derail but seems to be a fair few weird 'feminist' books out at the moment - this for example



> *Honey Money: The Power of Erotic Capital *
> 
> Catherine Hakim's groundbreaking book reveals how erotic capital is just as influential in life as how rich, clever, educated or well-connected we are. Drawing on hard evidence, she illustrates how this potent force develops from an early age, with attractive children assumed to be intelligent, competent and good. She examines how women and men learn to exploit it throughout their lives, how it differs across cultures and how it affects all spheres of activity, from dating and mating to politics, business, film, music, the arts and sport. She also explores why erotic capital is growing in importance in today's highly sexualised culture and yet, ironically, as a 'feminine' virtue, remains sidelined.
> 
> _Honey Money _is a call for us to recognize the economic and social value of erotic capital, and truly acknowledge beauty and pleasure. This will not only change the role of women in society, getting them a better deal in both public and private life - it could also revolutionize our power structures, big business, the sex industry, government, marriage, education and almost everything we do


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## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

that looks diabolical LD


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## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

love detective said:


> sorry for derail but seems to be a fair few weird 'feminist' books out at the moment - this for example


The Guardian interview with the author made her out to be a proper academic fraud, who "denies her own views and the restates them with abandon" or similar.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 23, 2011)

Will Self seemed very taken with it, the cunt.


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Random said:


> The Guardian interview with the author made her out to be a proper academic fraud, who "denies her own views and the restates them with abandon" or similar.


you got a link mate? i could do with a laugh


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## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

Captain Hurrah said:


> She's awful isn't she.


No she's not, she's great. Am reading her book now and falling about laughing.


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## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> you got a link mate? i could do with a laugh


Here you are http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/19/catherine-hakim-interview


----------



## love detective (Aug 23, 2011)

Random said:


> No she's not, she's great. Am reading her book now and falling about laughing.



do you LURVE it Randy?


----------



## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

Edie said:


> Mate by the time I finished reading that book I couldn't look at her on the cover I wanted to punch her face in so bad. SCREAM! Urgh what a bitch. Chapter 9 was the final fuckin straw, when she went to watch lapdancers with her smug fuckin friend as said that girls who dance should be told to get down off the "podium" and get with the sisterhood. (burlesques fine, natch, cos its fucking middle class). I posted a rant on her 'let's discuss feminism' page of her website, in which I bearly swore (told her to fuck off ONCE!), and it was moderated off.


 Here point, iirc, was that seeing as how there's been thousands of years of sexual slavery of women, that women working as lapdancers, etc are the sexual equivalent of a minstrel show, or a cleaning company that only employed black people acting subserviant. She's got a point. There's nothing liberated about stripping, despite the anti-feminist backlash 'girl power' attempts to paint it that way.


----------



## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

love detective said:


> do you LURVE it Randy?


OH MY GOD! It's Hillarious!


----------



## love detective (Aug 23, 2011)

ARE YOU A FEMINIST RANDY? Y/N


----------



## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

love detective said:


> ARE YOU A FEMINIST RANDY? Y/N


Yes. And you?


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

Random said:


> Here you are http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/19/catherine-hakim-interview




ta


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

> Immediately, she starts barking at me; she tells me I'm using value-laden language, and that I've got to get over the idea that people can't change. "Look at Muslims! They turn against their cultural expectations within one generation of arriving here!" The people on the next table to us get up and move. I would argue that it's a lot easier to get over cultural expectation when you have the warm bath of a different culture, that you live in, ready to step into. But I don't say any of that because I'm worried that one or both of the people who have just moved might be Muslims, and there's always a chance she might start barking again.



oh my god


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

She sounds like a nightmare, im reading the review and cringing


----------



## Random (Aug 23, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> oh my god


I thought that was the most dishonest part of the interview, really. There's nothing racist or islamophobic about what Hakim said, but the interviewer seems to be implying that there was.


----------



## love detective (Aug 23, 2011)

Random said:


> Yes. And you?



of course, some of my best friends are women


----------



## frogwoman (Aug 23, 2011)

i dont think there is either, but to be honest, the whole interview sounds terrible on both sides and yeah that paragraph is a bit dishonest.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 23, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Will Self seemed very taken with it, the cunt.


no he didn't


----------



## lazyhack (Aug 23, 2011)

Sorry to de-rail, any opinions on Hari speaking of the 'Rebellious Media Conference' - http://rebelliousmediaconference.org/ - surely there is nothing more than rebellious than breaking all the rules, which he did. He is speaking alongside Chomsky, who is actually one of the people he fabricated an interview with. There are a bunch of other bores on the line up too; Laurie Penny, etc. I'm sure Owen Jones will be wheeled out and the anarchist NUJ president. Zizek recently said that conservatives who tell the truth are far more useful than liberals, I think he was spot on.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 23, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> no he didn't



Fair enough, I must have misremembered.






> Sorry to de-rail, any opinions on Hari speaking of the 'Rebellious Media Conference' - http://rebelliousmediaconference.org/ - surely there is nothing more than rebellious than breaking all the rules, which he did. He is speaking alongside Chomsky, who is actually one of the people he fabricated an interview with. There are a bunch of other bores on the line up too; Laurie Penny, etc. I'm sure Owen Jones will be wheeled out and the anarchist NUJ president. Zizek recently said that conservatives who tell the truth are far more useful than liberals, I think he was spot on.



Someone really needs to wind Chomsky up about it before he goes on...

I agree with Zizek on that, but then I'm a big Max Hastings fan​


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## Orang Utan (Aug 23, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Fair enough, I must have misremembered.


if you're talking about the review of Hakim's book, he was quite critical!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Aug 23, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> Sorry to de-rail, any opinions on Hari speaking of the 'Rebellious Media Conference' - http://rebelliousmediaconference.org/



See previous page.


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## love detective (Aug 23, 2011)

lazy fucking hack


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## belboid (Aug 23, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> if you're talking about the review of Hakim's book, he was quite critical!


thats putting it mildly!


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## Random (Aug 24, 2011)

link?


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## Spanky Longhorn (Aug 24, 2011)

So he was, I was obviously drunk by the time I got to the Review section


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## gosub (Sep 14, 2011)

Sorry (sort of) and off to learn how to do his job properly


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## Divisive Cotton (Sep 14, 2011)

has the daft fucker been sacked yet?


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## gosub (Sep 14, 2011)

unpaid leave and back in2012 after a journo couse in US


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## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

a pre-emptive strike by 'returning' his orwell prize. hmm.


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## love detective (Sep 14, 2011)

gosub said:


> Sorry (sort of) and off to learn how to do his job properly



what an utter cunt


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## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

it's all over now anyway.

piers morgan has come out in support of him.


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## Refused as fuck (Sep 14, 2011)

No mention of slander.


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## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Total whitewash of the sort Hari condemns. Previous editor gets nothing for repeatdly lying about the paper, about Hari and about his editorship. You're a laughing stock Independent. You are David Rose's bitch.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

Refused as fuck said:


> No mention of slander.



he does admit to the david rose stuff, if not admitting to specific cases. it's not much of an apology though, tbf. although the only apology i'd think was enough would be his resignation, and perhaps some sort of seppuku.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Even that apology is spinning - compare what he says he was accurate about about his trip to the CAR to what he's been accused of bullshiting about. Entirely different things. And that's only in the fist few paragraphs. FFS


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Hang on, he's returning a prize that had been taken away from him - the announcement of such pending the completion of this whitewash.


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## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Hang on, he's returning a prize that had been taken away from him - the announcement of such pending the completion of this whitewash.


yeah, that was laughable. wonder if they'll have anything to say about it?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Even when you catch 'em they come out on top.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2011)

Oh dear.

http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2011/07/who-is-david-rose.html

_David Rose is Assistant News Editor of The Times and says he hasn't had any contact with him for 10 years._


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Oh dear.
> 
> http://jackofkent.blogspot.com/2011/07/who-is-david-rose.html
> 
> _David Rose is Assistant News Editor of The Times and says he hasn't had any contact with him for 10 years._


You what?


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

why is he going to the USA to learn journalising? we've a perfectly good journalism school here in preston. i'd certainly welcome seeing him about town...


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## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Private journalism school in the US  -lower standards of entry


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## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You what?


The guy who he was pretending to be on wikipedia and other sites is asst news editor of the times and went to cambridge with him.


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Private journalism school in the US -lower standards of entry



our standards are quite low enough, i assure you.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2011)

http://twitter.com/#!/DRoseTimes


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> The guy who he was pretending to be on wikipedia and other sites is asst news editor of the times and went to cambridge with him.


Do yourself a favour and read the threads  -this one and the one you link to.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Do yourself a favour and read the threads -this one and the one you link to.


I didn't read all 27 pages and there isn't a search this thread function so apologies if it's already been posted.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Sep 14, 2011)

killer b said:


> he does admit to the david rose stuff, if not admitting to specific cases. it's not much of an apology though, tbf. although the only apology i'd think was enough would be his resignation, and perhaps some sort of seppuku.



That's not what I was talking about. I meant attributing quotes from completely different contexts into replies to his questions which don't make sense and also accuse the interviewed subject of hideous acts (e.g. the Negri interview). In the DRose case he doesn't mention child porn either.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> I didn't read all 27 pages and there isn't a search this thread function so apologies if it's already been posted.


You've posted the wrong stuff.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Private journalism school in the US -lower standards of entry



but where is he getting those 'standards' from?


----------



## sleaterkinney (Sep 14, 2011)

Fair enough


----------



## articul8 (Sep 14, 2011)

You seen he's been forced to hand back his Orwell prize?
http://theorwellprize.co.uk/news/press-statement-the-orwell-prize-for-journalism-2008/


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

was he forced? he says he decided to do it himself!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

sleaterkinney said:


> Fair enough


So we're clear, he is David Rose and he did do the incest paedo fantasy.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

he's so sneaky


----------



## killer b (Sep 14, 2011)

the orwell prize statement is fairly curt.

they do look like fucking mugs over this, tbf. more so now.


----------



## Belushi (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> was he forced? he says he decided to do it himself!



Well he decided to return it once it became clear he was going to be stripped of the prize.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

The Independent stitched them up - and becuse it's the same sort of middle class liberal running both operations they thought they wouldn't get turned over. They did though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

Belushi said:


> Well he decided to return it once it became clear he was going to be stripped of the prize.


i know, just been reading about it.
he can always earn a living doing peter griffin at cosplay events


----------



## Sue (Sep 14, 2011)

articul8 said:


> You seen he's been forced to hand back his Orwell prize?
> http://theorwellprize.co.uk/news/press-statement-the-orwell-prize-for-journalism-2008/



Just heard this on the radio. How the fuck did he ever win it in the first place? Orwell must be birling in his grave.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Until 2012. How long is that?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

He still thinks he's right to be a lying cunt as well - in fact, he was so right he foretold what would happen and why:


> In my work, I’ve spent a lot of time dragging other people’s flaws into the light. I did it because I believe that every time you point out that somebody is going wrong, you give them a chance to get it right next time and so reduce the amount of wrongdoing in the world.



A bit like not jesus, but one the greats - surely?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

_I lied because it would reduce the amount of wrongdoing in the world._


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

he lied for our sins


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

> In my work, I’ve spent a lot of time dragging other people’s flaws into the light. I did it because I believe that every time you point out that somebody is going wrong, you give them a chance to get it right next time and so reduce the amount of wrongdoing in the world.


I thought it was because you enjoyed getting risk free vindicative inaccurate lying cunt-faced kicks in at you enemies. Didn't realise that your apotheosis was in the post.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> he lied for our sins


And he'll rise again in 3 months.


----------



## Santino (Sep 14, 2011)

I wish I bought The Independent so I could stop buying it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

What could possibly be happening in the US in 2012 that a brit journo that's a laughing stock over here might need to cover?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Owen Jones defence of Hari was mentioned earlier. Can anyone remember what is was?


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 14, 2011)

you can't mean:


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Bingo!

Notice the i did two things wrong fail ti mention that he did both things wrongs for a decade and quite pretty bloody often. No, two offences are all that need to talked about to the world.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

the toad aslo implies that he wasn't properly trained cos he was fast tracked for being so brilliant.


----------



## Sgt Howie (Sep 14, 2011)

If he's smart he'll cut his losses and not come back. He's a joke in the UK now. There'll be plenty of liberal news outlets in the States stupid enough to take him on. That way everyone's a winner, good fucking riddence.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Not sure you need training for not being a lying cunt.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Sgt Howie said:


> If he's smart he'll cut his losses and not come back. He's a joke in the UK now. There'll be plenty of liberal news outlets in the States stupid enough to take him on. That way everyone's a winner, good fucking riddence.


Same people here, that's how he both managed to do this and now to get away with it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> the toad aslo implies that he wasn't properly trained cos he was fast tracked for being so brilliant.


So even as his mates save him he drops them in it - he blames them.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Why was Hari fast-tracked?


----------



## Sgt Howie (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Same people here, that's how he both managed to do this and now to get away with it.



True, but he can probably do without everyone apart from his mates sniggering behind their hands every time he writes something. To the rest of the country he'll be like Andrew Neil in his vest.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2011)

Edie said:


> I say it yer.


it's a very short hop from yer to yah

and we all know what someone who says yah, not yeah, is

i'll give you a hint


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Why was Hari fast-tracked?


well he did go to cambridge


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

And he was in trouble even then for this stuff. Why did he get this fast track?


----------



## Santino (Sep 14, 2011)

He had 'health problems' apparently.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> And he was in trouble even then for this stuff. Why did he get this fast track?


who are you asking? i don't know. i would imagine he had connections. or he was lucky with his scribblings.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Richard Seymour, the bloke who does lenins tomb confirmed that he knew David Rose in the middle of this. Not that he had met a David Rose, but _the_ David Rose. The one who had done all the stuff Hari has today half-admitted to and who wasn't at that time actually Hari.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> who are you asking? i don't know. i would imagine he had connections. or he was lucky with his scribblings.


I'm asking questions out loud mate. Not interrogating.


----------



## Santino (Sep 14, 2011)

Johann gave a wan smile as he ordered a latte. 'Do you think I got away with it?' he asked with a rueful grin.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 14, 2011)

Don't journo's requote things that are already on the record all the time?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

_Do you_? came the reply


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Don't journo's requote things that are already on the record all the time?


What?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 14, 2011)

Isn't that what he did - lifted quotes from other articles and inserted them in to his own?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

PlaidDragon said:


> butchersapron said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He is.


----------



## Santino (Sep 14, 2011)

'Yes, they may "requote" things,' said Butchers, rolling his eyes at the naive interjection.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Isn't that what he did - lifted quotes from other articles and inserted them in to his own?


Not really no. But also yes. He built a vast potemkin  empire upon that sort of tradition. Here's an idea, fund out what he actually did.


----------



## Santino (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Richard Seymour, the bloke who does lenins tomb confirmed that he knew David Rose in the middle of this. Not that he had met a David Rose, but _the_ David Rose. The one who had done all the stuff Hari has today half-admitted to and who wasn't at that time actually Hari.


New post here: http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/09/johann-hari-debacle.html


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Don't journo's requote things that are already on the record all the time?



Loads of people do, even on here. But it's standard accepted etiquette to credit the original authors. Anything else is plagiarism.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Santino said:


> New post here: http://leninology.blogspot.com/2011/09/johann-hari-debacle.html


Ta for that. I hadn't got round to checking his stuff yet. I am on a email list where he defended Hari through this Rose connection most strongly and accused people of having a paedo hunt. (Note, i _can_ back this up)


----------



## ignatious (Sep 14, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Here's an idea, fund out what he actually did.


He lifted quotes from other articles and inserted them in to his own. Perfectly normal behaviour in the world of mainstream journalism.

He also, and this I suspect is your gripe, cherry-picked quotes to suit his desired narrative. But he's a shite columnist, not a substantive reporter. And I'm the naive one?


----------



## Refused as fuck (Sep 14, 2011)

He had form for being a cunt before all this exploded in his face. Oh yeah, and _child porn_.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

ignatious said:


> He lifted quotes from other articles and inserted them in to his own. Perfectly normal behaviour in the world of mainstream journalism.
> 
> He also, and this I suspect is your gripe, cherry-picked quotes to suit his desired narrative. But he's a shite columnist, not a substantive reporter. And I'm the naive one?


No he didn't.Yes you are. You're too late pal. See his teary lying apology.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 14, 2011)

Santino said:


> He had 'health problems' apparently.


don't we all?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2011)

ignatious said:


> He lifted quotes from other articles and inserted them in to his own. Perfectly normal behaviour in the world of mainstream journalism.
> 
> He also, and this I suspect is your gripe, cherry-picked quotes to suit his desired narrative. But he's a shite columnist, not a substantive reporter. And I'm the naive one?



I actually enjoyed some of his columns, if not always his views on matters. But it isn't difficult to say, "Jo bloggs met him and discovered blah blah" and form an argument around it rather than disingeniously shoving Joe Bloggs out of the equation and pretending it was himself instead. In fact, I don't understand why he did it. Does he want to impress his readership with lies about his imagined derring-dos?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Ignatious, any examples of the sort of thing Hari did that spring to mind? It should be pretty abundant right? Blow our minds.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 14, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Loads of people do, even on here. But it's standard accepted etiquette to credit the original authors. Anything else is plagiarism.


well, his plagiarism was slightly different to the usual kind. he kind of did credit the originial authors, but suggested that they'd said these things directly to him.


----------



## Paulie Tandoori (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> well, his plagiarism was slightly different to the usual kind. he kind of did credit the originial authors, but suggested that they'd said these things directly to him.


martin luther king sighed and looked towards the window when i asked him how he was sleeping.

"_i have a dream_" he told me, directly.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> well, his plagiarism was slightly different to the usual kind. he kind of did credit the originial authors, but suggested that they'd said these things directly to him.


There was no kind of credit to the people who had elicited those answers full stop. And this was only half of his thievery the rest was usual plagiarism  -see his Orwell winning article on multi-culturalism. He did both.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 14, 2011)

He's been lying for over half of his adult life.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> well, his plagiarism was slightly different to the usual kind. he kind of did credit the originial authors, but suggested that they'd said these things directly to him.



Sorry, made it clearer in an edit. But perhaps I was wrong anyway, I was under the impression that he lifted the quotes from books that were written in other languages. Can anyone clarify this?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Sorry, made it clearer in an edit. But perhaps I was wrong anyway, I was under the impression that he lifted the quotes from books that were written in other languages. Can anyone clarify this?


He did for the Negri thievery and the multi-culturalism one.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

During this the New Statesmen were presented with evidence that Hari was David Rose by two different writers. They refused to publish -why?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ignatious, any examples of the sort of thing Hari did that spring to mind? It should be pretty abundant right? Blow our minds.



Not to hand, no. I'm not defending him, I'm just a bit surprised at the righteous indignation. If you post up any interview piece of your choosing that's been written by a hack with any kind of agenda I'll probably spot the odd part where he or she has tried to lead the reader. I'm sure you could too. It's what they do. He's just very, very shit at it, is all.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Ta. That's what I was led to believe. Didn't know the allegations ran further, mind.

Sorry, that was @ Butchers.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Not to hand, no. I'm not defending him, I'm just a bit surprised at the righteous indignation. If you post up any interview piece of your choosing that's been written by a hack with any kind of agenda I'll probably spot the odd part where he or she has tried to lead the reader. I'm sure you could too. It's what they do. He's just very, very shit at it, is all.


Keep walking lad.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Not to hand, no. I'm not defending him, I'm just a bit surprised at the righteous indignation. If you post up any interview piece of your choosing that's been written by a hack with any kind of agenda I'll probably spot the odd part where he or she has tried to lead the reader. I'm sure you could too. It's what they do. He's just very, very shit at it, is all.



He obviously made himself some enemies. When you opt to make yourself high profile and unpopular it's usually wise to ensure that your own knickers are always kept well laundered.


----------



## OneStrike (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> During this the New Statesmen were presented with evidence that Hari was David Rose by two different writers. They refused to publish -why?



Good question. The likes of David Allen Green were the ones pushing the story when clearly others held the hard evidence.

Edit. i'm drunk, ignore me!


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Keep walking lad.


How about you explain why you feel that this incident is of such magnitude? You havent done that yet. You've just chucked your toys out of the pram and then resorted to bully boy tactics when asked why you feel so let down by this news. Are you genuinely surprised that these things go on?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> How about you explain why you feel that this incident is of such magnitude? You havent done that yet. You've just chucked your toys out of the pram and then resorted to bully boy tactics when asked why you feel so let down by this news. Are you genuinely surprised that these things go on?


Now loyala that's not true is it? I invited you to _read the fucking thread_



> Later that night, as he thanked me for the best birthday present he had ever received, I explained I was going to have his ass tattooed. `Property of Leroy Jones. Access strictly forbidden except to owner.' I had it done a week later. You might see us around, my boy and me. I'm the one with the sharp suit and the big dick. He's the one with the tight ass, staring at his brother with silent love, ready at a moment's order to drop to his knees or to part his ass cheeks for his boss. If you see us, come say hi and get your wallet ready. I have lots of fit, prime boys you can buy -- and one very special one you can't


_
_


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> How about you explain why you feel that this incident is of such magnitude? You havent done that yet. You've just chucked your toys out of the pram and then resorted to bully boy tactics when asked why you feel so let down by this news. Are you genuinely surprised that these things go on?


Let down? Ah you're a good one. Seriously, fuck off, read the thread.


----------



## revol68 (Sep 15, 2011)

does Big Pimpin Bro Hari still have liberal muppets willing to defend his bare faced lying?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I invited you to _read the fucking thread_


No you didn't, but I did read your link in the OP.


butchersapron said:


> Later that night, as he thanked me for the best birthday present he had ever received, I explained I was going to have his ass tattooed. `Property of Leroy Jones. Access strictly forbidden except to owner.' I had it done a week later. You might see us around, my boy and me. I'm the one with the sharp suit and the big dick. He's the one with the tight ass, staring at his brother with silent love, ready at a moment's order to drop to his knees or to part his ass cheeks for his boss. If you see us, come say hi and get your wallet ready. I have lots of fit, prime boys you can buy -- and one very special one you can't



Who the fuck's loyola and what's this all about?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Well now is your opportunity. The link in the OP has been superceded by stuff that hari admitted to today. What the fuck do you think all these posts around yours are on about?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Who the fuck's loyola and what's this all about?



I never get this shit either. 

But do you see yourself in the narrative?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What the fuck do you think all these posts around yours are on about?


I think they're on about a media storm.


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 15, 2011)

Why are the Jesuits coming to Hari's defence.

This is like a Dan Brown novel.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> But do you see yourself in the narrative?


No, I just see a lot of latent sexual tension on the part of butchers!


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> I think they're on about a media storm.


Great phrase,can i use it? Oddly enough Hari feels that he's enough of a now known lying cunt to pretend to do something about it. Can you think of a comparable exercise?


----------



## revol68 (Sep 15, 2011)

it's more like Umberto Echo's Foucault's Pendulum, put with hilarious exploitation incest porn


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 15, 2011)

There is a passage in that novel that parodies Dan Brown before it was written...  Whichproves that I have read Dan Brown.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Great phrase,can i use it? Oddly enough Hari feels that he's enough of a now known lying cunt to pretend to do something about it. Can you think of a comparable exercise?


What, you mean can I think of someone in the public eye who's been found out and takes some sort of 'sabatical' by way of pennance? Not for the life of me....


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> What, you mean can I think of someone in the public eye who's been found out and takes some sort of 'sabatical' by way of pennance? Not for the life of me....


No, i mean a journalist who has been found out in the way Hari has. It's your point that they're ten-a-penny, so let's have 5 bobs worth.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

If you're as smug as Hari you think you're clever by having two fake names,sitting there thinking no one else knows.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No, i mean a journalist who has been found out in the way Hari has. It's your point that they're ten-a-penny, so let's have 5 bobs worth.



I'd say that most journalistic sins are those of omission rather than commission.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I'd say that most journalistic sins are those of omission rather than commission.


Well, thanks for that.Doesn't help our young Jesuit on his quest does it?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I'd say that most journalistic sins are those of omission rather than commission.


Oddly enough, you started this thread off saying the same thing as this other one.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Well, thanks for that.Doesn't help our young Jesuit on his quest does it?



I'm not gonna have this conversation all over again, and frankly things have moved on since this thread first started, but I still can't quite bring myself to care all that much that Hari is a lying shit. Most journos are either shit or lying or both. IME.

Edith:


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No, i mean a journalist who has been found out in the way Hari has. It's your point that they're ten-a-penny, so let's have 5 bobs worth.


Nope. But by the same token can you name a _columnist_ who relies solely upon their own research and writes every piece with searing objectivity?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Nope. But by the same token can you name a _columnist_ who relies solely upon their own research and writes every piece with searing objectivity?



Shiftin the post innit.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Shiftin the post innit.


I guess it depends on your definition of 'journalist'.


----------



## revol68 (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Nope. But by the same token can you name a _columnist_ who relies solely upon their own research and writes every piece with searing objectivity?



Hari isn't in shit for using other peoples research or for writing from a subjective partisan position, those are perfectly legitimate things to do.

He is in shit for being a lying little cunt who stole other peoples interviews/writings and presenting them as his own, as arising from interviews he gave.Oh and he;s also in bother for just outright lying.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> Nope. But by the same token can you name a _columnist_ who relies solely upon their own research and writes every piece with searing objectivity?


Yeah fuck off, they all do it, but i can't think of a single one. See them shit m/c trainers? Get them on.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of 'journalist'.


What's he aplogised for?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> I guess it depends on your definition of 'journalist'.



I didn't mean columnist vs journo, I meant "relying solely on own research" and "writing with searing objectivity". Noone does that. Research is always reliant on other sources and writing can never be searingly objective, unless we're talking maths.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Ignatious, are you a journo?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

Ignatious is David Rose.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

revol68 said:


> Hari isn't in shit for using other peoples research or for writing from a subjective partisan position, those are perfectly legitimate things to do.
> 
> He is in shit for being a lying little cunt who stole other peoples interviews/writings and presenting them as his own, as arising from interviews he gave.Oh and he;s also in bother for just outright lying.


you forget about the wikivandalism


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What's he aplogised for?


An 'error of judgement'.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ignatious, are you a journo?


I don't know what he is, but to be defending hari now is as fucking stupid as you can get. At least find out what it's about.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> An 'error of judgement'.


No, that's not what he says at all is it?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Ignatious, are you a journo?


No. Nowhere near that line of work.

I'm not defending him. I'm just surprised at the reaction of many people including you. I thought you'd be more 'well, obviously' about it all.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> No. Nowhere near that line of work.
> 
> I'm not defending him. I'm just surprised at the reaction of many people including you. I thought you'd be more 'well, obviously' about it all.


who did you used to be then?


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> No, that's not what he says at all is it?


It's a neat summary.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> who did you used to be then?


Eh?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

what was your old username?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Everytime something bad is exposed there's someone going _well are you surprised? _ No i'm not what? I can only like things that i didn't expect?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> It's a neat summary.


it's a hari-esque 'quote'


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> what was your old username?


This is my first and only username. What makes you ask that?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> This is my first and only username. What makes you ask that?


you seem overly familiar


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> it's a hari-esque 'quote'


He doesn't give much ground in his 'apology' is the point, unless you've seen otherwise?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

(tobes is that you? - not tobyjug) Glee at the expected death of an enemy. Expectations only come into it if they're caught -we 're not used to people being caught (hence your lack of examples). I didn't expect him to be caught. You're saying that you did and many more.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> you seem overly familiar


Dunno why. First time I've posted I think although I've read the boards from time to time.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

ignatious said:


> He doesn't give much ground in his 'apology' is the point, unless you've seen otherwise?





ignatious said:


> An 'error of judgement'.


He doesn't use this phrase once.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> (tobes is that you? - not tobyjug) Glee at the expected death of an enemy. Expectations only come into it if they're caught -we 're not used to people being caught (hence your lack of examples). I didn't expect him to be caught. You're saying that you did and many more.


Fair enough, I suppose I'd always assumed that it was a given that he was a bit of a charlatan.

No idea about your references to Toby. You're weird.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> He doesn't use this phrase once.


"I'm sorry, and I'm grateful to the people who pointed out this error of judgment. I will make sure I learn from it."

From here:-

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jun/29/johann-hari-apologises-interview-quotes


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

You mean the fake apology from months ago, the one he lied in. Say no fucking more.

Maybe you'd like to try the latest version of the apology to get up to date and all.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

hari-esque lifting of quote from different article again


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Maybe you'd like to try the latest version of the apology to get up to date and all.


You'll be pleased to learn that I have now read the latest apology. I'm now going to explode with rage that a member of such an honourable profession could act in such a manner.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

You're trying very hard to be cynical but you're not. you fllatten all things into one. You're the useful idiot that says _oh that's just journalism. _You're not much use to me like that_. _I know who'd like to hear more of what you have to say though.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Visiting his parents for the first time since he last needed money the young loyola told his parents they had to break the mould, stopping only to ask how and where you vote.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 15, 2011)

Who?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Who else would cyncical hard faces like ignatious  vote for. There's only one man for dem. They even went home to vote for him.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You're trying very hard to be cynical but you're not. you fllatten all things into one. You're the useful idiot that says _oh that's just journalism. _You're not much use to me like that_. _I know who'd like to hear more of what you have to say though.


Aren't I? Do I? Am I? Ok. Ok.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Who else would cyncical hard faces like ignatious vote for. There's only one man for dem. They even went home to vote for him.


Jesus, so anyone who's not frothing at the mouth over this is a tory? You need to get out more.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that you don't know what happened/haven't bothered to find out (evidenced throughout your posts) And that this lazy _hey he's on our side man_ marks you down ad a lib-dem voter. When allied with your belief that you're hard faced and cynical i think this marks you as the classic anarchist lib-dem. A laughing stock.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

> The other thing I did wrong was that several years ago I started to notice some things I didn’t like in the Wikipedia entry about me, so I took them out. To do that, I created a user-name that wasn’t my own. Using that user-name, I continued to edit my own Wikipedia entry and some other people’s too. I took out nasty passages about people I admire – like Polly Toynbee, George Monbiot, Deborah Orr and Yasmin Alibhai-Brown. I factually corrected some other entries about other people. But in a few instances, I edited the entries of people I had clashed with in ways that were juvenile or malicious: I called one of them anti-Semitic and homophobic, and the other a drunk. I am mortified to have done this, because it breaches the most basic ethical rule: don’t do to others what you don’t want them to do to you. I apologise to the latter group unreservedly and totally.



_I was mortified to find out that i'd done this over 10 years._ I don't do that.

Even the apology is a lie about what he actually did.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

> After it emerged that I had done this



genuis (being suitably mortified when it emerged that it had been you doing it, like some posh hound )


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

"some defenders of the powerful people I had taken on over the years for their wrongdoing saw an opportunity to try to discredit what I had written about them"

No they didn't. You got nailed by the left. The right were siting by picking up breadcrumbs. You lie.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

> Amid legitimate criticism of what I had done wrong, there were lots of untrue statements, but I’m hardly in a position to complain that some people saw it as an opportunity to take a free kick



You don't know what a free kick is and you decided to just smear everyone as making untrue statements. Why? What statements were true and what not? All the ones i've seen are unanswerable. Why try to smear them with (unstated) lies by association?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Apology? He's just told us all to fuck off and say thank you at the same time.


----------



## articul8 (Sep 15, 2011)

The upshot is that he's going on a crash course (until 2012 - three and a bit months away) in journalism and giving up an award that was being taken away anyway?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Read the thread! Stuff that people were loathe to print its more going to done out.


----------



## ignatious (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that you don't know what happened/haven't bothered to find out (evidenced throughout your posts) And that this lazy _hey he's on our side man_ marks you down ad a lib-dem voter. When allied with your belief that you're hard faced and cynical i think this marks you as the classic anarchist lib-dem. A laughing stock.


Wrong again. For someone who holds others to such high standards of account you don't half talk a load of assumptive shite.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2011)

Interesting bit in the New Staetsman by the JackofKent blogger. Turns out one of the reasons this went on for so long was Mr Hari's willingness to sue for deformation people whom raised it. I'm not sure how that tallies with " I believe that every time you point out that somebody is going wrong, you give them a chance to get it right next time and so reduce the amount of wrongdoing in the world."
Be interesting to see what those on the wrong side of David Rose, now they have an identity to persue through the courts, do now


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

'sue for deformation'
the elephant man's first lawsuit


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

i find being mortified by one's own behaviour rather chucklesome.


----------



## killer b (Sep 15, 2011)

gosub said:


> Be interesting to see what those on the wrong side of David Rose, now they have an identity to persue through the courts, do now


another reason to flee the country post-haste.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 15, 2011)

he just can't help himself:
http://themediablog.typepad.com/the-media-blog/2011/09/johann-hari-quotes.html


----------



## agricola (Sep 15, 2011)

How hasnt he been sacked?  Does the Indy really believe him when he says it wont happen again?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> he just can't help himself:
> http://themediablog.typepad.com/the-media-blog/2011/09/johann-hari-quotes.html



But he isn't contradicting himself; look:



> *Johann Hari, September 2011:* _"If I had asked *the many experienced colleagues I have here at The Independent*... they would have explained just how wrong I was. It was arrogant and stupid of me not to ask."_
> Or would they?​*Johann Hari, June 2011: *_"I called round...*other interviewers for British newspapers* and they said what I did was normal practice and they had done it themselves."_



He is referring to two completely different groups of people: 1) his work mates who perhaps don't interview people as part of their work and and 2) interviewers from rival papers. Further, in the September quote he _speculates_ on what his colleagues would have said whilst in the June quote he _states_ what hacks from other papers _did _say to him.

Whoever writes that blog is either disingenuous or dumb.

What makes Hari look like an idiot there is that he needs to _ask_ people something that should be common bloody sense; and certainly something that someone who writes for a living ought to know.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2011)

yeah but the whole thing arises from him "stating" what other people say to him.

 Should have handed in resignation at the meeting just before being sacked.

Wonder what hold Hari has over Kelner. Must be some fucked off people over at the Indy


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

gosub said:


> yeah but the whole thing arises from him "stating" what other people say to him.



Well what's wrong with 'stating' something that was indeed stated? I suppose he could be lying but I'm not furnished with the details of what private conversations he's had with other people in the industry so have to take it at face value. The blog is framed that he is contradicting himself, but he isn't.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> He is referring to two completely different groups of people: 1) his work mates who perhaps don't interview people as part of their work and and 2) interviewers from rival papers.


 So 'people who don't interview' are the ones he should have listened to? The Indy is notoriously short of proper journalists, so who are these otehr papers, who have even worse ones? I think he's probably making stuff up again, about having contacted other papers, implying that he talked to several people at several papers.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Well what's wrong with 'stating' something that was indeed stated? I suppose he could be lying but I'm not furnished with the details of what private conversations he's had with other people in the industry so have to take it at face value. The blog is framed that he is contradicting himself, but he isn't.


Take hari at face value?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> So 'people who don't interview' are the ones he should have listened to? The Indy is notoriously short of proper journalists, so who are these otehr papers, who have even worse ones? I think he's probably making stuff up again, about having contacted other papers, implying that he talked to several people at several papers.



He is talking about two separate things - one speculation the other not - involving two different sets of people. This is desperate bottom of the barrel stuff. There's enough to criticise him for without weakening your position by this piss poor stuff.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Take hari at face value?



Well, quite.  But best to have evidence for stuff, no?


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> He is talking about two separate things - one speculation the other not - involving two different sets of people. This is desperate bottom of the barrel stuff. There's enough to criticise him for without weakening your position by this piss poor stuff.


I've not got a position, really, I'm just idly guessing.

Edit: unless you're referring to my position that Hari is a tremendous liar, and I don't think anything can 'weaken' reality.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Well, quite.  But best to have evidence for stuff, no?


Both articles linked to on this thread...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Both articles linked to on this thread...



So I'm in the wrong? I only know what it says in those quotes on the blog. And from that he isn't contradicting himself. If there's more to it then the blogger should illustrate that because as it stands it looks disingenuous.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

it's not clear that he's not contradicting himself either though is it

Interviewers for British newspapers could well include the sub-set who were experienced journalists at the Independent

Also if he's not contradicting himself - what basis does he have to speculate that his experienced colleagues at the Independent would frown upon it, when he himself has actually spoken to Interviewers at British newspapers who have confirmed to him that it is normal practice? Surely based on the evidence he's actually collected from Interviewers at British newspapers he should be speculating that his experienced colleagues at the Independent would also view it as normal practice no?


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Who are these 'interviewers' andyway? Michael Winner? Jeremy Clarkson?


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2011)

more likely : Polly Toynbee, George Monbiot, Deborah Orr and Yasmin Alibhai-Brown


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

If Hari now accepts it's not normal practice and unacceptable - he surely now has a duty to expose these Interviewers at British newspapers who re-assured him that it's normal practice and have done it themselves (assuming of course they exist)


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> it's not clear that he's not contradicting himself either though is it
> 
> Interviewers for British newspapers could well include the sub-set who were experienced journalists at the Independent
> 
> Also if he's not contradicting himself - what basis does he have to speculate that his experienced colleagues at the Independent would frown upon it, when he himself has actually spoken to Interviewers at British newspapers who have confirmed to him that it is normal practice? Surely based on the evidence he's actually collected from Interviewers at British newspapers he should be speculating that his experienced colleagues at the Independent would also view it as normal practice no?



Because in my line of work, for example, there's set procedures of what is right and wrong. Now, not everyone goes entirely as the rule book states all of the time. If I asked people in a similar role to me who worked elsewhere if they had ever, for example, used a ladder to access some equipment to repair something then they're likely to say they have; even though H&S dictates we can only use ladders for inspection purposes. In fact I know they have.

If I were to ask colleagues in my department whether I should use a ladder to access somewhere to repair something, I imagine they'd tell me to demand the company provides me with a MEWP instead.

They certainly would if it was after I'd fallen off a ladder I asked for the advice.

It's two different questions. Have you done this? Do you think I should do this? To two different groups of people. Why should the answer be the same?

Why the desperation to prove he's lying? It strikes me that he perhaps isn't.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> It's two different questions. Have you done this? Do you think I should do this? To two different groups of people. Why should the answer be the same?


 Now you're the one going out on a limb. It's fairly obvious, he says in almost as many words, that he was asking them to pass judgement on whether what he was doing was ok.


----------



## gosub (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> He is talking about two separate things - one speculation the other not - involving two different sets of people. This is desperate bottom of the barrel stuff. There's enough to criticise him for without weakening your position by this piss poor stuff.


The desperate bottom of the barrel is the grited teeth apology, on the day of an enquiry ended.


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## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> To two different groups of people. Why should the answer be the same?



So there's absolutely no cross over between:-

a) Interviewers at British Newspapers, and

b) Experienced journalists at the Independent


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> If Hari now accepts it's not normal practice and unacceptable - he surely now has a duty to expose these Interviewers at British newspapers who re-assured him that it's normal practice and have done it themselves (assuming of course they exist)


He should expose them, or at least confront them in a jesus-loving kind of way and offer them the chance to redeem themselves by also jetting off to the Huffingdon Post or similar.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

if he doesn't he's part of a cover up - which itself should be exposed


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> So there's absolutely no cross over between:-
> 
> a) Interviewers at British Newspapers, and
> 
> b) Experienced journalists at the Independent



What's that got to do with the price of fish?

1) He's asking two different questions to two different groups of people.

2) One he gave the answer given while the other he speculatated on the response.

Why would the answers given be the same? I've just taken time to illustrate my train of thought. Do you think there's no cross-over between people in my department and maintenance workers elsewhere in my company?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

What's so difficult about it? 

Have you ever done this dodgy practice? Yes. Would you advise that I do this dodgy practice? no.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> If I asked people in a similar role to me who worked elsewhere if they had ever, for example, used a ladder to access some equipment to repair something then they're likely to say they have; even though H&S dictates we can only use ladders for inspection purposes. In fact I know they have.


 But what would your colleagues say if you said "I've done this, is it ok?" They'd probably warn you of the fact that it was against regulations and dangerous. In fact, they'd probably warn you of this even if they told you it was basically ok as long as you weren't found out.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> Now you're the one going out on a limb. It's fairly obvious, he says in almost as many words, that he was asking them to pass judgement on whether what he was doing was ok.



What people can advise on a professional level (especially in hindsight) and what they themselves are guilty of doing exist in different postcodes.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> What's that got to do with the price of fish?
> 
> 1) He's asking two different questions to two different groups of people.
> 
> ...



why do you keep insisting they are two different groups of people - there's nothing to say they are (or that they aren't)


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> But what would your colleagues say if you said "I've done this, is it ok?" They'd probably warn you of the fact that it was against regulations and dangerous. In fact, they'd probably warn you of this even if they told you it was basically ok as long as you weren't found out.



Ok, here's another angle. Just because I've hoovered up a shit load of drugs up my nostrils in my time doesn't automatically equate that I'd advise my girlfriend's daughter to do the same.

Have you taken drugs? Yes.

Would you advise that I should take drugs? No.

Have you ever plagiarised someone? Yes.

Should I plagiarise someone?

What answer would you give, in a professional capacity?


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> What people can advise on a professional level (especially in hindsight) and what they themselves are guilty of doing exist in different postcodes.


But you're saying they'd not even see it as being guilty of anything


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> why do you keep insisting they are two different groups of people - there's nothing to say they are (or that they aren't)



Ok forget the two different groups of people. It's two different questions. It's likely to get different answers from the same group of people. Experience tells me it does.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> But you're saying they'd not even see it as being guilty of anything



The question is posed concurrently with the shitstorm. Do you seriously suggest they'd tell him it's ok with this crap flying at him?


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> What's so difficult about it?
> 
> Have you ever done this dodgy practice? Yes. Would you advise that I do this dodgy practice? no.



if something is defined as 'normal practice' then surely this is sanctioning that behaviour?


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Ok, here's another angle. Just because I've hoovered up a shit load of drugs up my nostrils in my time doesn't automatically equate that I'd advise my girlfriend's daughter to do the same.
> 
> Have you taken drugs? Yes.
> 
> ...


Mate, look at the quote - he says that these interviewers basically said "it's cool, go ahead". You'd not do that to a kid who asked about drugs, would you? At the very least you'd mention that there are _some_ risks with drugs, and that they are illegal


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Look, this is meandering oceans away from what I said. I stated the quotes aren't contradictory. Let's stick to that. In what way are they contradictory? I mean, without inventing a narrative that suits your argument.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> The question is posed concurrently with the shitstorm. Do you seriously suggest they'd tell him it's ok with this crap flying at him?



well according to him, lots did


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> if something is defined as 'normal practice' then surely this is sanctioning that behaviour?



Provide evidence that the interviewers 'from British newspapers' that said that are one and the same as his colleagues. Otherwise it's pure conjecture.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Look, this is meandering oceans away from what I said. I stated the quotes aren't contradictory. Let's stick to that. In what way are they contradictory? I mean, without inventing a narrative that suits your argument.


How is it doing that, when I'm replaying directly to your post, and using your own hypothetical example?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> well according to him, lots did



No. He asked them if they had ever done it. They said they had. They said it was 'normal practice'. That isn't the same as telling someone something is ok.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Provide evidence that the interviewers 'from British newspapers' that said that are one and the same as his colleagues. Otherwise it's pure conjecture.


I have never argued that they were - i've only argued against your assertion that they were definitely two completely separate and mutually exclusive sets of people - i.e. you claimed it was impossible for the two things to contradict each other, i merely put forward the fact that they were possibly contradictory

but, assuming for the sake of argument they are not

do you believe Hari has a duty to expose those who have admitted to doing something that he now understands is unacceptable?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> How is it doing that, when I'm replaying directly to your post, and using your own hypothetical example?



Because my examples don't appear to be working. Either you can't or are unwilling to take the points on board. And it's ridiculous to start debating the example (which isn't hypothetical btw).

So I'm asking you to tell me why you think the quotes _are_ contradictory without inventing a narrative. Go by the words as they are presented only.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> No. He asked them if they had ever done it. They said they had. They said it was 'normal practice'. That isn't the same as telling someone something is ok.


"Yes son, me and your mother both snort coke"


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Because my examples don't appear to be working. Either you can't or are unwilling to take the points on board.
> 
> So I'm asking you to tell me why you think the quotes _are_ contradictory without inventing a narrative. Go by the words as they are presented only.


Oh, I'm not saying they're contradictory at all. I'm just saying that either he talked to equally dishonest journos, or he's lying about having asked anyone at all.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> I have never argued that they were - i've only argued against your assertion that they were definitely two completely separate and mutually exclusive sets of people - i.e. you claimed it was impossible for the two things to contradict each other, i merely put forward the fact that they were possibly contradictory
> 
> but, assuming for the sake of argument they are not
> 
> do you believe Hari has a duty to expose those who have admitted to doing something that he now understands is unacceptable?



They obviously don't think it is unacceptable. Neither does he. He does in hindsight, of course.

Would you expose people for unacceptable behaviour that you yourself had recently been caught doing? Seems a bit of a hypocritical position to adopt.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> Oh, I'm not saying they're contradictory at all. I'm just saying that either he talked to equally dishonest journos, or he's lying about having asked anyone at all.



Which is fair enough. But both are conjecture. It's a narrative that suits your views on hari. The words as they are on the screen on that blog aren't contradictory like the blog implies. That was my only argument.


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They obviously don't think it is unacceptable. Neither does he. He does in hindsight, of course.
> 
> Would you expose people for unacceptable behaviour that you yourself had recently been caught doing? Seems a bit of a hypocritical position to adopt.



seems a bit hypocritical to accept it's unacceptable but cover up for those who you know are/still doing it


----------



## JimW (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> He should expose them, or at least confront them in a jesus-loving kind of way and offer them the chance to redeem themselves by also jetting off to the Huffingdon Post or similar.


He should create an Internet persona and obsessively edit the information into their Wikipedia entries. I rang round a few fast-tracked Oxbridge pundits and apparently this is the way to go.


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Which is fair enough. But both are conjecture. It's a narrative that suits your views on hari.


It's conjecture, based on that way Hari has acted in the past, and in the way I'd expect a reasonable person to respond, if someone asked their advice about doing something dodgy (i.e. that they'd mention at least in passing that it was in fact dodgy)


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> seems a bit hypocritical to accept it's unacceptable but cover up for those who you know are/still doing it



I think you're stretching this a bit. If you got caught with a bit of weed, got hung drawn and quartered in the media and accepted (you may not, but you did for the purpose of this hypothetical situation) that it was wrong to take the heat off, you would then go and drop everyone else in it who had admitted doing the same? Only a complete drip would behave like that. Plagiarism is wrong imho. But then I think about my views on intellectual preoperty rights and it's not like they've been raping grannies, is it?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> It's conjecture, based on that way Hari has acted in the past, and in the way I'd expect a reasonable person to respond, if someone asked their advice about doing something dodgy (i.e. that they'd mention at least in passing that it was in fact dodgy)



Once a liar always a liar, eh?


----------



## love detective (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I think you're stretching this a bit. If you got caught with a bit of weed, got hung drawn and quartered in the media and accepted (you may not, but you did for the purpose of this hypothetical situation) that it was wrong to take the heat off, you would then go and drop everyone else in it who had admitted doing the same? Only a complete drip would behave like that. Plagiarism is wrong imho. But then I think about my views on intellectual preoperty rights and it's not like they've been raping grannies, is it?



crap analogy

if he's genuinely concerned about the overall integrity of the journalistic profession then he can't ignore it

if he does ignore it, then it makes his 'apologies' even more meaningless than they already are - because he's in private condoning the things that he's publicly stating are now unacceptable - not a great start to his 'clean slate' that is it


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## Refused as fuck (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Once a liar always a liar, eh?



READ HARI WITH NO ILLUSIONS


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> Once a liar always a liar, eh?


Not just once, was it? lol


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## Refused as fuck (Sep 15, 2011)

Not forgetting _the child porn_.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

love detective said:


> crap analogy
> 
> if he's genuinely concerned about the overall integrity of the journalistic profession then he can't ignore it
> 
> if he does ignore it, then it makes his 'apologies' even more meaningless than they already are - because he's in private condoning the things that he's publicly stating are now unacceptable - not a great start to his 'clean slate' that is it



It's hypocritical to hold people to a standard that you yourself wouldn't hold yourself to. Pick an analogy to suit.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> Not just once, was it? lol



So, we can just lift any old quotes from hari, state that he's lying because he's a liar, and then use them as the basis of a stick to beat him with?

Like I said earlier, it's piss poor and weakens your position to do that.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Refused as fuck said:


> Not forgetting _the child porn_.



He does look like he could be Ronnie Barker's son. Actually, aesthetically, he always reminded me a bit of Dubversion. Mixed with Harry Potter.


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> So, we can just lift any old quotes from hari, state that he's lying because he's a liar, and then use them as the basis of a stick to beat him with?


 Have I just done that, though? I've also said why I think it's unlikely that real living "interviewers" would have said it's ok, without at least mentioning the 13th Commandment.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> It's hypocritical to hold people to a standard that you yourself wouldn't hold yourself to. Pick an analogy to suit.


I reckon that most people probably have higher professional standards than hari. And in the case of plumbers and electricians I fervently hope so!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> Have I just done that, though? I've also said why I think it's unlikely that real living "interviewers" would have said it's ok, without at least mentioning the 13th Commandment.



They didn't say it was ok, though, did they? They admitted having done it. It's possible to do something that is wrong and know that it is unacceptable but still do it for whatever reason. And I suspect it's laziness rather than some kind of sinister motive behind it.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They didn't say it was ok, though, did they? They admitted having done it. It's possible to do something that is wrong and know that it is unacceptable but still do it for whatever reason. And I suspect it's laziness rather than some kind of sinister motive behind it.


Yes indeed, but isn't the whole point, that Hari says he asked people, and heard no warning bells from them about dodginess? How likely do you think that really is?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> I reckon that most people probably have higher professional standards than hari. And in the case of plumbers and electricians I fervently hope so!



Which is an important point. A dodgy sparky could create damage in a way that plagiarism could never achieve. Plagiarism is just dishonesty. But it's unlikely that the original author lost out financially out of the plagiarism in the same way that a script writer would be affected by an entire work being stolen.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> Yes indeed, but isn't the whole point, that Hari says he asked people, and heard no warning bells from them about dodginess? How likely do you think that really is?



Surely the dodginess is implicit? If someone asked me if I'd taken ketamine I could say I had yet assume that they already knew the dangers if they wanted to venture there themselves? Otherwise you assume that they're a muppet and hand them a leaflet on drugs or something, which wasn't what they actually enquired about.


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## sihhi (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> They didn't say it was ok, though, did they? They admitted having done it. It's possible to do something that is wrong and know that it is unacceptable but still do it for whatever reason. And I suspect it's laziness rather than some kind of sinister motive behind it.



The guy wanted good copy to be fawned over and loved. His excuse is I have no excuse. He shouldn't be a journalist any more. His editors shouldn't be editors. His sockpuppeting was particularly damaging accusing Christine Odone of antisemitism? WTF?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

sihhi said:


> The guy wanted good copy to be fawned over and loved. His excuse is I have no excuse. He shouldn't be a journalist any more. His editors shouldn't be editors. His sockpuppeting was particularly damaging accusing Christine Odone of antisemitism? WTF?



I agree. I'm not defending hari btw, just attacking that blog and playing devils advocate a bit for debate and boredom's sake.


----------



## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I agree. I'm not defending hari btw, just attacking that blog and playing devils advocate a bit for debate and boredom's sake.


Yes I know. Hari is such an obvious sleaze he's just fun to kick around, from whichever angle.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

We'll only get bored, you know, if we agree too much.


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

No we won't!


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

haha! good retort.


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## sihhi (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> No we won't!



What about the editors - how can they have wanted to protect him for so long? That's the real question.


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

sihhi said:


> What about the editors - how can they have wanted to protect him for so long? That's the real question.


It makes me suspect there's an institutional culture of bulshitting in the newspapers, and Haris was just noobish enough to get caught, whereas others have been doing it more skillfully.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

It's a combination of laziness and deadlines that created this particular monster. I don't think they always intentionally set out to lie. If they're not lifting quotes and passing them off as their own they're lifting half-researched material, adding their own condiments and then passing them off as facts. Y2K and the scary MMR jab are examples if this. I should quote a source really as it isn't my own work. Think it was Flat Earth News I read that in but the former was blatantly bollocks whilst the latter many people believed and placed their children in danger because of.


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## Random (Sep 15, 2011)

The big name columnists are expected to sell a newspaper like an A-lister sells a film. Hari was, I suppose, too valuable to the Indy to kill off. They have few big names writing for them, and he was skillful at getting attention and even seeming to set the agenda sometimes. With the Indy's lack of investigative journos, that was one of the paper's few selling points.


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## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Random said:


> The big name columnists are expected to sell a newspaper like an A-lister sells a film. Hari was, I suppose, too valuable to the Indy to kill off. They have few big names writing for them, and he was skillful at getting attention and even seeming to set the agenda sometimes. With the Indy's lack of investigative journos, that was one of the paper's few selling points.


And now it's their weak point. They are fucked


----------



## killer b (Sep 15, 2011)

surely no amount of laundering will make hari a selling point anymore? i'm baffled they think him worth saving tbh - a few colourful articles on the US elections aren't going to scrub the defamation, plagiarism and paedo incest porn out of people's minds is it... surely their opinion of their readership isn't that low?


----------



## killer b (Sep 15, 2011)

killer b said:


> surely their opinion of their readership isn't that low?


actually, it is isn't it?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

It sure is. They've just gobbed in all their readers tea and told them to drink it up.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

I actually enjoyed some of his columns on the rare occasion that I read the Indy.

Like this quote "*When I hear people ranting about chavs, I want to lock them on a council estate with £100 a week and three kids"  *(see how easy it is to quote, Johann?) from this article suggests his heart is in the right place. Which was quickly negated by his bizarre support of the Iraq war.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Are you in the mood for confusing yourself tonight c66?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Are you in the mood for confusing yourself tonight c66?



As always, yes. What have I done now?


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

It's actually a sneer at 'chavs'? I just like the quote. Will re-read the article


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

His heart is in the right place but is negated by supporting the war? So what's your case here?


----------



## killer b (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> It sure is. They've just gobbed in all their readers tea and told them to drink it up.


well, if twitter is any indication of the opinions of the readers of the independent (and i think this is one of the rare occasions where it probably is representative of something), they aren't buying it.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> It's actually a sneer at 'chavs'? I just like the quote. Will re-read the article


It's not a sneer at Chav's, i was on about your last line in that post. Owen Jones was bigging up Hari before. Two oxbridge boys standing up for the chavs.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

killer b said:


> well, if twitter is any indication of the opinions of the readers of the independent (and i think this is one of the rare occasions where it probably is representative of something), they aren't buying it.


It's just too blatant, too _fuck you._


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> His heart is in the right place but is negated by supporting the war? So what's your case here?



My case was, compared to the majority of mainstream pundits, he doesn't have an anti-working class agenda. Or doesn't appear to.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> My case was, compared to the majority of mainstream pundits, he doesn't have an anti-working class agenda. Or doesn't appear to.


Exactly why he shouldn't be a thieving lying cunt.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Exactly why he shouldn't be a thieving lying cunt.



Well of course. But I was referring to his commentary, not his practices.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 15, 2011)

Same thing to my mind


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

I knew you'd say that! And you're right, it is. But if you glance over the offending post again at post 1022 you'll see that I spoke in the past tense. I _enjoyed_ some of his columns before all this came about. If he ever writes again, which seems questionable, I doubt I'd take it in the same respect. But when I did read them this shit storm hadn't gathered.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> My case was, compared to the majority of mainstream pundits, he doesn't have an anti-working class agenda. Or doesn't appear to.



He does, just a Labour anti-w/c one- strong supporter of Labour's welfare-to-work programme/reforms.

Only strong deep revolutionary change will wash away the Independent's crimes.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

sihhi said:


> He does, just a Labour anti-w/c one- strong supporter of Labour's welfare-to-work programme/reforms.
> 
> Only strong deep revolutionary change will wash away the Independent's crimes.



Fair enough. I've only read the odd article on the rare occasions I've been in possession of an Indy; I'd never choose him as my specialist subject on mastermind.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 15, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I'd never choose him as my specialist subject on mastermind.



Workplace ladder practices on the other hand...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

DaveCinzano said:


> Workplace ladder practices on the other hand...



No metal ones, conductors of electricity. Wooden ones can become distorted if left in the rain, or the sun, and fibre glass ones are heavier than you'd expect! Manual handling issues!


----------



## DaveCinzano (Sep 15, 2011)

Angles! Don't forget the stuff about the angles!


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2011)

Terrible race of people.


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 15, 2011)

Where has Iggie gone?  I was enjoying Butcher's inquisition?


----------



## sihhi (Sep 15, 2011)

Good response here



> If this had happened in one interview, with only three quotes, the first option might be just about plausible. But the sheer scale of stolen quotes in Hari’s work suggests otherwise. Here’s an excerpt from Jon Lee Anderson’s 2001 interview with Hugo Chavez in the _New Yorker_:
> ‘“It is possible I have something of this . . . tragic sense of life,” he [Chavez] acknowledged. He recalled that on the eve of the 1992 rebellion he had said goodbye to his wife and three children, and led his soldiers out of their barracks. He was the last to leave. After locking the big front gate, he threw away the key. “I realized at that moment that I was saying goodbye to life,” Chávez said. “So it is possible that one has been a bit . . . imbued with that . . . ever since, no?”’​And here’s Hari’s ‘exclusive interview’ with Chavez from 2006:
> ‘The spectre haunting Latin America – the spectre of Hugo Chavez – furrows his big, broad brow, pats my knee, and tells me about the night he knew he was going to die. “I will never forget – in the early hours, I said goodbye to my wife and three little children. I kissed them goodbye and blessed them.” He knew in his gut he was not going to survive that long, bloody day in 1992, when he and his allies finally decided to stage a revolution against the old, rotten order loathed by the Venezuelan people. “I realized at that moment that I was saying goodbye to life,” he says, looking away. “So it is possible that, after surviving, one has been a bit... imbued with that sense ever since, no?”’​.......​
> what about Hari’s accounts _can _we trust? If some of the quotes in his articles are not the words Hugo Chavez or George Michael or Ann Leslie or Malalai Joya said to him, which ones are? How do we know that the bits in between the quotes are accurate? If Hugo Chavez gave Hari a garbled version of the same thing he said to Anderson, did he also look away when doing so, as Hari claims he did? How about the  part when Chavez patted Hari on the knee – did that really happen, or is it simply dramatic effect to heighten the interesting quotes he has stolen? Once you start reading Hari’s interviews and taking away the plagiarized quotes, you realize that there’s very little of substance left to the articles, but much melodramatic looking away, cigarette-smoking and knee-patting from the subjects. The details of body language he uses to surround so many of his plagiarized quotes don’t suggest a writer searching for clarity in order to offer an X-ray of his subjects’ ‘finest thoughts’, but rather one who has deliberately and systematically misled his readers.
> ...



He was nominated for being journalist of the year by the British Press Awards and won an Amnesty International Britain National Newspaper Media award (not Journalist of the Year) in 2010! All awards ceremonies should be swept away.

One interesting thing about the affair is that he has posted several thousand posts in Wikipedia mostly lying and spinning about himself with several alternative IP numbers - one from work, one from laptop, one from home - who knows?

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php...imit=500&target=David+r+from+meth+productions

A sample




			
				Hari sockpuppet said:
			
		

> (another user) inserted into his entry fictitious claims he went to the most exclusive public school in Britain when in fact his father is a bus driver, and, most crucially, inserted poorly sourced and legally disputed claims that he "fabricated" a story he wrote about. ... Private Eye. This is a British scandal magazine, which Hari was attacked by literally a week after he criticised its editor in print. One wiki administrator has said on this page it should be viewed with "a very jaundiced eye", another has said it is "at best 50 percent accurate", yet Felix is insisting on using it as a source. This fails both BLP and NOTE, since Private Eye attacks virtually all prominent journalists sooner or later.


 
Johann Hari in fact attended John Lyon School, a private school in North West London.
http://www.isc.co.uk/school_TheJohnLyonSchool_Harrow.htm

Private Eye exposed Hari's lying early on in with an article called "Hari's Game" that the Hari sockpuppets were desperate not to have/remove from Hari's Wikipedia. So he knew he was lying early on and he could get found out, but carried on lying and lying to stop it appearing on his wiki entry that anyone suspected him of lying.

He used a total of five sockpuppets to carry out these edit wars
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catego..._sockpuppets_of_David_r_from_meth_productions


----------



## taffboy gwyrdd (Sep 16, 2011)

http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/...ut-hari,-say-bullshit-merchants-201109154307/


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2011)

Chris morris' influence on a generation of university types is not always a good thing.


----------



## killer b (Sep 16, 2011)

jesus. that's impressively lame.


----------



## frogwoman (Sep 16, 2011)

that's shit and not funny


----------



## temper_tantrum (Sep 16, 2011)

Just wondering, I doubt the assertion that the Indy kept Hari because they needed to, to hang onto readers. It explained their having him in the first place, but not post-scandal, no.
He's staying because he wants to (clearly). Which makes me think ... Wondering if he's got some kind of angle, employment-law wise, which gave him leverage to cling on? Duty of care? Not adequately supervised/managed? Does anyone know enough to comment?


----------



## MellySingsDoom (Sep 16, 2011)

Wow, what a wadical and edgy attempt at "humour".


----------



## rekil (Sep 16, 2011)

frogwoman said:


> that's shit and not funny


The daily mash has never been funny but that's a new low.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 16, 2011)

temper_tantrum said:


> Just wondering, I doubt the assertion that the Indy kept Hari because they needed to, to hang onto readers. It explained their having him in the first place, but not post-scandal, no.
> He's staying because he wants to (clearly). Which makes me think ... Wondering if he's got some kind of angle, employment-law wise, which gave him leverage to cling on? Duty of care? Not adequately supervised/managed? Does anyone know enough to comment?



Nah, he hasn't got a leg to stand on. I haven't seen their P&Ps but I imagine it's gross misconduct.


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 16, 2011)

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...i/johann-hari-a-personal-apology-2354679.html


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 16, 2011)

http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/09/unethical-journalism

The economist refutes his apology


----------



## danny la rouge (Sep 16, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> http://www.economist.com/blogs/bagehot/2011/09/unethical-journalism
> 
> The economist refutes his apology


The Economist is correct in its analysis.

My favourite bit of the statement of regret (it isn't an apology), not including the stuff about all his subjects being incoherent, is the bit where he gives back the Orwell Prize.  Then says it was going to be taken back anyway.  Proper lolled at that.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 16, 2011)

Booted off the Rebellious media conference. Pity.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 16, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Booted off the Rebellious media conference. Pity.



He doesn't care about that he has a new  article in the New York Times, probably still the world's most important newspaper for Western intelligentsia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/18/books/review/three-famines-by-thomas-keneally-book-review.html

Why does everyone keep calling Mengistu Stalinist?

Odd and lame.


> It’s odd that he actually witnessed the Ethiopian famine of the late ’80s, but chooses not to provide any sense of what it looked or sounded or smelled like. It’s an unpleasant irony to say of a book about famine that it leaves you hungry for more, but this one does.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 16, 2011)

Mengistu was Stalinist, surely? Or at least practised 'Stalinism with Ethiopian characteristics'.

E2A: Ah, I see, Johann thinks Mengistu was doing a perfect imitation of Stalinist 'theology'. Actually, his rule had a lot of continuity with the Emperor's, only with much more repression.


----------



## big eejit (Sep 18, 2011)

Hari's lucky he didn't have to answer to Independent boss Alexander Lebedev. Here he is taking out a fellow guest on a Russian talk show.

http://themediablog.typepad.com/the-media-blog/2011/09/lebedev-punch-tv-video.html


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 18, 2011)

More Hari sockpuppets uncovered, including examples of him using here fake accounts to back up his other fake accounts, getting one fake acount to pretend to email another fake account to corroborate a fake account by a fake account. See comments from 16:03 onwards in particular. Plenty more to come, of the sort of disturbed actions such as _spending xmas eve/day last year editing Littlejohn's wiki entry._


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 18, 2011)

it's fascinating looking into this, the story just keeps on giving - the fact that people like this are so angry with him, means he hasn't got away with it yet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

Damn right it ain't over. The two groups of people Hari has manged to get away with it are 1) his journo mates and media liberals. People who helped hoist him  so high through a mix of professional and political nepotism. They are implicated in him and his rise and so have to defend him. Plus they're shameless unprincipled liars. 2) Those who haven't really followed the case very closely - the sort of readership that allowed the previous group to hoist Hari so high. The sort of lazy reader who decides on the truth or worth of an article by the closeness of their political views to those of the author. The sort of person who whines that Littlejohn does worse, without understanding that if this is true then hammering Hari to the utmost is their best weapon against people like them, that if they want to nail Littlejohn etc they must nail Hari as well. This group is also as utterly unprincipled as the first. Most people who have taken any interest in this come from neither group luckily.


----------



## revlon (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Damn right it ain't over. The two groups of people Hari has manged to get away with it are 1) his journo mates and media liberals. People who helped hoist him so high through a mix of professional and political nepotism. They are implicated in him and his rise and so have to defend him. Plus they're shameless unprincipled liars. 2) Those who haven't really followed the case very closely - the sort of readership that allowed the previous group to hoist Hari so high. The sort of lazy reader who decides on the truth or worth of an article by the closeness of their political views to those of the author. The sort of person who whines that Littlejohn does worse, without understanding that if this is true then hammering Hari to the utmost is their best weapon against people like them, that if they want to nail Littlejohn etc they must nail Hari as well. This group is also as utterly unprincipled as the first. Most people who have taken any interest in this come from neither group luckily.



did hari steal your girlfriend?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

From someone else.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

This is a great one from Brian Whelan:



> Pages and pages of wikipedia entries that Hari thought would be improved by adding himself to them


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

Wow, he is seriously ill.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

did he add himself to all of those entries though?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

All of them, prob not. I doubt it.  A load - yes.


----------



## Dan U (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This is a great one from Brian Whelan:



he's like a dog with a bone on this on Twitter.

i think he won't die a happy man unless he nails Hari and Sunny Hadal (for different reasons)


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

Johann Narcissus Hari?


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Wow, he is seriously ill.


That, I presume is why he is still being defended. Roy Greenslade is still doing the leave Britney Hari alone thing, and this is a man, as he points out himself now teaches ethics and journalism


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

gosub said:


> That, I presume is why he is still being defended. Roy Greenslade is still doing the leave Britney Hari alone thing, and this is a man, as he points out himself now teaches ethics and journalism


That's a reason not to defend him. Do you send a sick boy on a 4 month prestigious journalism course? Do you fuck.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

Greenslade does nowhere imply that Hari is ill or otherwise not compos mentis. On the contrary.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Feeling magnanimous, I have decided to forgive his trespasses.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Feeling magnanimous, I have decided to forgive his trespasses.


The trespass is not yours to forgive. So fuck off.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> The trespass is not yours to forgive. So fuck off.


There are worse scoundrels out there, in all fairness. Murdoch, Desmond, Littlejohn et al.

Let him be. Let him be disciplined and analysed. Or will you not be happy until he tops himself?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

A bee is firmly stuck in Butchers' bonnet.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> There are worse scoundrels out there, in all fairness. Murdoch, Desmond, Littlejohn et al.
> 
> Let him be. Let him be disciplined and analysed. Or will you not be happy until he tops himself?





> 2) Those who haven't really followed the case very closely - the sort of readership that allowed the previous group to hoist Hari so high. The sort of lazy reader who decides on the truth or worth of an article by the closeness of their political views to those of the author. The sort of person who whines that Littlejohn does worse, without understanding that if this is true then hammering Hari to the utmost is their best weapon against people like them, that if they want to nail Littlejohn etc they must nail Hari as well. This group is also as utterly unprincipled as the first.



Lazy reader. Thanks.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

What sort of stuff do murdoch and desmond write btw?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Lazy reader. Thanks.


I don't care who you rely on to telll you what to think and say but I forgive you, too. And you're a grade A cad.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> What sort of stuff do murdoch and desmond write btw?


Nothing that I'm aware of, they publish. They are stewards of evil empires, so they are far worse, by proxy - holding all that power.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Nothing that I'm aware of, they publish. They are stewards of evil empires, so they are far worse, by proxy - holding all that power.


So let's get them for writing crap journalism. Why do people like you always turn a blind eye whilst simulcasting your brave willingness to call out hypocrisy wherever you may find it. Even at your own expense. Fuck off and do it then.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

why is the fact that there are 'far worse' a reason for hari to escape public opprobrium?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> why is the fact that there are 'far worse' a reason for hari to escape public opprobrium?


There aren't far worse anyway. It's been a call since the first pages to produce these far worse, not a single example has been put forward.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> why is the fact that there are 'far worse' a reason for hari to escape public opprobrium?


It's a witch hunt. No, feck it - it's mass hysteria. He's fucked up, sure - and he deserves condemnation for bringing the art of journalism into disrepute. But this... this fucking glee from certain quarters... it's just as depressing and ugly.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

2)

How many years spent fucking up wikipedia entries is acceptable houby? Is not a sign of a moral collapse?


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> Greenslade does nowhere imply that Hari is ill or otherwise not compos mentis. On the contrary.


If you were defending someone, due to you being worried that were being hounded to suicide "Leave him alone, he's mental" is probably not the best public gambit


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 19, 2011)

danny la rouge said:


> http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...i/johann-hari-a-personal-apology-2354679.html


A bit self-justifying isn't it? He doesn't spell it out but does this mean that 'David Rose' is Johann Hari?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> It's a witch hunt. No, feck it - it's mass hysteria. He's fucked up, sure - and he deserves condemnation for bringing the art of journalism into disrepute. But this... this fucking glee from certain quarters... it's just as depressing and ugly.


i don't see a witch hunt, i see genuine outrage at such unprofessionalism and the fact that he's being allowed to get away with it
so you don't agree that he should be finished as a journalist for what he did?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> It's a witch hunt. No, feck it - it's mass hysteria. He's fucked up, sure - and he deserves condemnation for bringing the art of journalism into disrepute. But this... this fucking glee from certain quarters... it's just as depressing and ugly.


What did he do that  brought the art of journalism into disrepute?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

Mrs Magpie said:


> A bit self-justifying isn't it? He doesn't spell it out but does this mean that 'David Rose' is Johann Hari?


Yes it does.


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 19, 2011)

Ah, thanks, butchers. I lost interest in this hoo-ha for a while so I wasn't really up to speed.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i don't see a witch hunt, i see genuine outrage at such unprofessionalism and the fact that he's being allowed to get away with it
> so you don't agree that he should be finished as a journalist for what he did?



Fine; discipline him and get him to write for Viz. Whatever. He shouldn't be finished as a human being, though.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Fine; discipline him and get him to write for Viz. Whatever. He shouldn't be finished as a human being, though.


what's that supposed to mean? has anyone called for his public hanging?


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

I wonder, if Littlejohn had some underage incest fantasy that he went to the bother of writing about if the call could be that fantasies are theirs alone? Stop mentioning it? Someone else? A 'chav'?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> what's that supposed to mean? has anyone called for his public hanging?


Not in as many words. Read between the lines at comments from the likes of butchers & you can hear the noose being tightened.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Not in as many words. Read between the lines at comments from the likes of butchers & you can hear the noose being tightened.


jesus. we have a fantasist here.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Not in as many words. Read between the lines at comments from the likes of butchers & you can hear the noose being tightened.


You hadn't even read 5 posts up from when you entered the thread. You're not in a position to say what the thread is about or other posters motivations.


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> what's that supposed to mean? has anyone called for his public hanging?


But you've already said he is seriously ill, (something I entirely agree with), I'd give him his 4 months to regain his focus, and if he does go back to the Indy, start up again.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

gosub said:


> But you've already said he is seriously ill, (something I entirely agree with), I'd give him his 4 months to regain his focus, and if he does go back to the Indy, start up again.


who has said that he's ill?


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> You hadn't even read 5 posts up from when you entered the thread. You're not in a position to say what the thread is about or other posters motivations.


Don't stand. Don't stand. Don't stand so close to me.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> jesus. we have a fantasist here.


Yup. He's probably arranging an angry mob as we speak.


----------



## gosub (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> who has said that he's ill?


sorry, got you and butchers confused


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Yup. He's probably arranging an angry mob as we speak.


your posts on this thread make you sound like a twat


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> your posts on this thread make you sound like a twat


Because I disagree with the urban jury? Fair do; that's your opinion.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> Because I disagree with the urban jury? Fair do; that's your opinion.


there is no urban jury, angry mob nor mass hysteria - this is all coming from your mind.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> there is no urban jury, angry mob nor mass hysteria - this is all coming from your mind.


I am not Johann Hari. Perspective, please.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I am not Johann Hari. Perspective, please.


who said or implied that you were? what's wrong with you? be reasonable.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> who said or implied that you were? what's wrong with you? be reasonable.


I am the epitome of reason. Just because someone posts to the contrary of someone else does not mean it's all coming from their mind. Someone may just have different views. No need for animosity.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I am the epitome of reason. Just because someone posts to the contrary of someone else does not mean it's all coming from their mind. Someone may just have different views. No need for animosity.


This thread is too big for you to fuck up houby


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> I am the epitome of reason. Just because someone posts to the contrary of someone else does not mean it's all coming from their mind. Someone may just have different views. No need for animosity.


no animosity here. just surprised at the defence of the indefensible re hari and your peculiar characterisation of other posters as being part of some mob/jury.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> This thread is too big for you to fuck up houby


I have merely offered my opinions on the matter. You are the one who manages to muck up threads. I realise my presence on any thread offends you; the answer is quite simple. Stick me on ignore.

I'd love to stay on topic, so perhaps you could return the favour and do the same?

What punishment would be suitable for JH, in your opinion?


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

He ought to lose his job in the Indy, that much is clear.


----------



## krtek a houby (Sep 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> He ought to lose his job in the Indy, that much is clear.


That's reasonable. And his employers should be asking themselves a few questions, as well.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> That's reasonable. And his employers should be asking themselves a few questions, as well.



And when he doesn't lose his job after all, then what? A "witch-hunt"?


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 19, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> There aren't far worse anyway. It's been a call since the first pages to produce these far worse, not a single example has been put forward.


It's amazing that there's still some fools that aren't willing to hear a word against Hari. The Negri article in the OP is every bit as full of smears as anything you'll find.


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And when he doesn't lose his job after all, then what? A "witch-hunt"?



How many witch hunts are going to be alleged on this thread? Hari smears people with no regard for the truth and the people who point this out are the witch hunters.

At this rate our 'witch hunt' is in danger of turning into a martyrdom cult with Johann cast as Jesus.


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 19, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> At this rate Johann is Jesus.



/hari


----------



## Mrs Magpie (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> What punishment would be suitable for JH, in your opinion?


Only ever allowed to ghost-write for minor celebs.


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 19, 2011)

You've lost me:
Johann = Jesus/Hari
Is  this some sort of interfaith mathematical axiom?


----------



## rekil (Sep 19, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> You've lost me:
> Johann = Jesus/Hari
> Is this some sort of interfaith mathematical axiom?


He merely sexed up your quote in true Hari fashion.


----------



## Refused as fuck (Sep 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> And when he doesn't lose his job after all, then what? A "witch-hunt"?



It's a witch. burn it at the stake.


----------



## rekil (Sep 19, 2011)

krtek a houby said:


> What punishment would be suitable for JH, in your opinion?


Libdem speechwriter. Forever.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 19, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I actually enjoyed some of his columns on the rare occasion that I read the Indy.
> 
> Like this quote "*When I hear people ranting about chavs, I want to lock them on a council estate with £100 a week and three kids" *(see how easy it is to quote, Johann?) from this article suggests his heart is in the right place. Which was quickly negated by his bizarre support of the Iraq war.



But that article you quote from is full of exaggeration to say the least.



> As for homophobia, who is the latest chav icon - the Queen of the council estates - but Nadia Alamada, _Big Brother_'s transsexual winner?



http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...ari/who-are-you-to-laugh-at-chavs-532046.html

There's so much ludicrous untruths it's unreal:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinio...wo-sides-of-islam-go-head-to-head-852358.html

Apparently



> The 9/11 hijackers went to a strip-bar and got drunk before staging their cry for the construction of a Caliphate that would kill them for doing just that.



Also the people who wrote down the Quran synthesising several separate written sources were illiterate.



> Alex believes that Islam offers Absolute Judgements, immutably cast in stone in the Koran. These are (of course) hellishly patriarchal, since they were formulated by illiterate desert merchants in the seventh century AD.


----------



## rollinder (Sep 19, 2011)

Billy cunting Bragg has joined the fucking chearleaders over on facebook


> *Billy Bragg*
> *Getting a bit fed up with the voices lining up to kick poor old Johann Hari. Okay, he did bend the journalistic rules and alter some entries on Wikipedia, but all he has done, ultimately, is made a fool of himself. Unlike the News of the World phone hackers, he hasn't broken the law.*
> 
> *We were so right about Hari, say bullshit merchants*
> www.thedailymash.co.uk


----------



## killer b (Sep 19, 2011)

you care what some lib dem cunt thinks?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Sep 19, 2011)

hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
hari; hari, hari
krishna hari, hari, hari
hari; hari, hari


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> How many witch hunts are going to be alleged on this thread? Hari smears people with no regard for the truth and the people who point this out are the witch hunters.
> 
> At this rate our 'witch hunt' is in danger of turning into a martyrdom cult with Johann cast as Jesus.



I was exactly not alleging a witch-hunt. I think Hari deserves not to be a journo anymore. But then I think that about many journalists.


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 19, 2011)

TruXta said:


> I was exactly not alleging a witch-hunt. I think Hari deserves not to be a journo anymore. But then I think that about many journalists.


Aye, I realised that after posting.


----------



## TruXta (Sep 19, 2011)

eoin_k said:


> Aye, I realised that after posting.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 21, 2011)

Has anybody posted up this ridiculous hatchet job up yet? It could hardly be more inaccurate if he tried:

http://www.newstatesman.com/film/2007/04/slavoj-zizek-intellectual


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 21, 2011)

Jeff Robinson said:


> Has anybody posted up this ridiculous hatchet job up yet? It could hardly be more inaccurate if he tried:
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/film/2007/04/slavoj-zizek-intellectual





> At some level, Zizek knows this is preposterous; *he lived under Soviet tyranny*, and even joined the opposition.



Sadly, no.


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 21, 2011)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> hari; hari, hari
> krishna hari, hari, hari
> hari; hari, hari
> hari; hari, hari
> ...



He plagiarised for our sins.


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 21, 2011)

What have you got against comrade Tito?


----------



## Idris2002 (Sep 21, 2011)

My mum used to dress up as Marshal Tito as a kid.

She now claims that any photographs of these incidents were later lost. . .


----------



## Jeff Robinson (Sep 21, 2011)

Revisionist...


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 21, 2011)

sihhi said:


> But that article you quote from is full of exaggeration to say the least.



I'm not defending him or his exaggerations and untruths. But that article suggests he isn't as virulently anti-working class as the rest of the mainstream media's commentators which is why I enjoyed it.


----------



## sihhi (Sep 21, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not defending him. But that article suggests he isn't as virulently anti-working class as the rest of the mainstream media which is why I enjoyed it.



Any enjoyment for me is ruined by his completely anti-working class approach to his work as a defender of the working-class in print.


That Zizek piece has his usual hodge podge of quotes and written word misquoted:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...ook_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC0Q6AEwAA

Zizek gets the year right 1953, Hari misquotes him as 1956 - perhaps trying to link Brecht and Zizek to the repression of Hungary.


----------



## lazyhack (Sep 22, 2011)

He calls Lacan 'incomprehensible' twice, as if Hari's failure to understand someone's ideas is in itself a critique. He has a double first from Cambridge, I'd love to see some of the work he submitted.


----------



## lazyhack (Sep 22, 2011)

Citizen66 said:


> I'm not defending him or his exaggerations and untruths. But that article suggests he isn't as virulently anti-working class as the rest of the mainstream media's commentators which is why I enjoyed it.



He lives in a big house in Hampstead. His interest are not the interests of the working class.


----------



## gosub (Sep 22, 2011)

going on his wikipedia adventures, his interests are Johann Hari


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 22, 2011)

lazyhack said:


> He lives in a big house in Hampstead. His interest are not the interests of the working class.



Lolz

How many mainstream media pundits don't live in big posh houses? I didn't say he _was_ working class or that his interests lie there. have another read.


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 27, 2011)

I think I've been on Urban too long because when I clicked on this link I genuinely thought it was going to be about Hari.


----------



## Santino (Sep 27, 2011)

He didn't return the £2000 that came with the Orwell prize.

http://theorwellprize.co.uk/news/the-orwell-prize-and-johann-hari/


----------



## butchersapron (Sep 27, 2011)

Fantastic.


----------



## killer b (Sep 27, 2011)

more here

telegraph seems to have all the good stuff tonight.


----------



## binka (Sep 27, 2011)

"The Orwell Prize has no independent capacity to research the work that is submitted. It relies on the integrity of authors and of their publisher’s editorial practices."

theres usually about 12 on the longlist each year and each one has at most half a dozen articles submitted for consideration. if they havent got time to check up on an absolute maximum of 80odd articles then what do they do all day?

from wiki:
"The Orwell Prize is regarded as the pre-eminent British prize for political writing."

i think someone needs to edit that tbh


----------



## imposs1904 (Sep 28, 2011)

binka said:


> "The Orwell Prize has no independent capacity to research the work that is submitted. It relies on the integrity of authors and of their publisher’s editorial practices."
> 
> theres usually about 12 on the longlist each year and each one has at most half a dozen articles submitted for consideration. if they havent got time to check up on an absolute maximum of 80odd articles then what do they do all day?
> 
> ...


 
Maybe David Rose will take up your suggestion.


----------



## Bakunin (Sep 28, 2011)

imposs1904 said:


> Maybe David Rose will take up your suggestion.



I'm sure than Johann Hari could manage something suitably creative. How about:

'As I was sat at the dining table yesterday evening, pontificating about the meaning of life with the Dalai Lama and debating the pros and cons of Machiavelli with Alastair Campbell, all while managing to find common religious with a red-faced, cape-wearing gentleman whose name I seem to have forgotten, my stunning victory in the Orwell Prize brought a warm and healthy glow that easily topped that of the fine brandy and choice cigars passed round by our host, that fine and upstanding media titan and defender of free, fair, honest and unbiased reportage so redolent of the Fox Network and News International, Mr. Rupert Murdoch (who conveniently has some exciting job opportunities opening up at the moment), the Orwell Prize is still a benchmark for professional and aspiring writers everywhere. Although the evening was somewhat spoiled by some tall, gangling, pseudo-poor middle-class hack ranting on about Spain and the correct means of producing a decent cup of tea, for some reason.'

'After all, you only have to be as good as me to win an Orwell...'


----------



## eoin_k (Sep 29, 2011)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/sep/29/johann-hari-orwell-prize-offer?newsfeed=true

Now he is offering to repay the money.  He really isn't doing himself any favours with this blood out of a stone routine.


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2011)

Very Funny


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> Very Funny



Is it me or, regarding his serial sockpuppetry, does Hari suffer from an 'I'm Spartacus!' complex?

Or is he just a chiselling, dishonest hack writer who's totally banjaxed any credibility he might once have had and is only prepared to admit the fact when forced to/


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 15, 2011)

Whilst reading a Canadian news site, what do I spy? Surely not! Please tell me he hasn't... Please, no...


----------



## DaveCinzano (Nov 15, 2011)

..Oh, thank fuck for that!


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 5, 2011)

I think he's done his course now. Just waiting for everyone holding something back to flood the cunt when he does his next 5 grand (yes) for 600 words piece.

Into the ground.


----------



## gosub (Dec 5, 2011)

butchersapron said:


> I think he's done his course now. Just waiting for everyone holding something back to flood the cunt when he does his [bold]next 5 grand (yes) for 600 words piece.[/bold]
> 
> Into the ground.



Does that 600 words include stolen quotes? Or was 600 creative writing words to frame plagiarism?


----------



## maldwyn (Dec 5, 2011)

That's £8.33 per word!


----------



## sihhi (Dec 5, 2011)

Simon Kelner the Indie editor who loves johann hari has set up a foundation http://www.thejournalismfoundation.com/

Media bosses to the rescue of democracy:

http://www.thejournalismfoundation.com/2011/12/a-struggle-for-the-very-soul-of-democracy/#more-439


----------



## binka (Dec 5, 2011)

is rod liddle really the best they can do?


----------



## sihhi (Dec 5, 2011)

binka said:


> is rod liddle really the best they can do?



Rod Liddle doesn't matter. Tunisian liberals do. They want them to line up in favour of Ennahda's privatisations and against their fairly minimal Islamisation-ism.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 7, 2011)

In an exemplary example of linkbait for _The Spectator_, Nick Cohen blends together a pop at the _Telegraph_ with support for Laurie Penny, Polly Toybee and Melanie Phillips, and manages to shoehorn this gem about Hari:



> On Fleet Street it was common knowledge for years that Hari made it up...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 10, 2012)

Chris Blackhusrt up at levenson today:



> Johann Hari will return to the Independent as a columnist – but not an interviewer – in four or five weeks





> Hari produced his medical history "which showed that he acted in the way he did" in relation to the Wikipedia amendments.



(what's that even supposed to mean? We all know that "he acted in the way he did").

A direct quote from Blackhurst and 100% not true:



> I'm surprised you say there was cover-up in the sense there were inclings before because that is genuinely news to me. One of the problems … was that no one had ever complained … Nobody had alerted us to the fact he had drawn his information from somewhere else. If there was we might have nipped it in the bud but in fact it continued.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 10, 2012)

inclings


----------



## Balbi (Jan 10, 2012)

So they're saying he's on the spectrum to the point of behavioural issues affecting his professional competence, just in very couched terms. Poor.

Or alternately he got himself wrecked on substances 

Or is just a massive controlling egotistical wankbag


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

http://johannhari.com/2012/01/20/a-short-update/



> I’d like to thank the Independent for the privilege of working for them over the past nine years, and for offering me my job back, starting in a few weeks. But after nearly six months living in New York City, and plenty of time to reflect, I’ve decided to not take them up on their kind offer.
> 
> There are two reasons. I’m willing to take the flack for my errors myself: when you screw up, you should pay a price. But I’m not willing to see other people, who are played no part in those errors and are unimpeachably decent people, take the flack too. It’s not fair on them. The Independent has been great to me, and we need its principles in the public arena without distractions.
> 
> ...


If i can make it there..what a cunt...


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

hari said:
			
		

> There are two reasons. I’m willing to take the flack for my errors myself: when you screw up, you should pay a price.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jan 20, 2012)

That's a pretty awful price he paid. It must have been hell, those six months in New York. Thank god that living nightmare is over for him.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

> in the US, I’ve started working on a book on a subject I believe is important and requires urgent action. To be done properly it needs international travel and the kind of in depth focus _that’s not possible when you are writing a heavily researched column at the same time._



He laughs in your face whittam-smith you knob.


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

This has to be a joke?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

He's just been on a journo course and he writes this sentence:



> I’d like to thank the Independent for the privilege of working for them over the past nine years, and for offering me my job back, starting in a few weeks



has to be a joke.


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2012)

nowt on the indepentent website i can see. maybe they saw the light and told him to cunt off.


----------



## binka (Jan 20, 2012)

killer b said:


> maybe they saw the light and told him to cunt off.



they didn't see the light, backed him to the hilt, ruined their own reputation then got mugged off by him when he decides to decline their offer of a return. its quite funny tbh


----------



## rekil (Jan 20, 2012)

> your supportive letters and emails since last July



Numerous pms of support.


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 20, 2012)

" _But I’m not willing to see other people, who *are* played no part in those errors and are unimpeachably decent people, take the flack too."_

He didn't even proof read it?


----------



## killer b (Jan 20, 2012)

wishful thinking on my part i guess. i hate hari more than i hate the indie. just.


----------



## agricola (Jan 20, 2012)

Hang on, wasnt that Toby Young's "I am not coming back" letter?


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

How did i miss this before?


----------



## Santino (Jan 20, 2012)

This noble, noble man.


----------



## redsquirrel (Jan 20, 2012)

Total mugs at the Indie


----------



## butchersapron (Jan 20, 2012)

Remember that time i faked a speed ticket for you? The amount is nothing - it's the wound.


----------



## OneStrike (Jan 21, 2012)

redsquirrel said:


> Total mugs at the Indie



I've tried to think how they were in on this arrangement, but i can't see it.  He has fucked them over, probably living off Eltons millions and funds for his Internationally important book.  The indie have been utter mugs even if he has stitched them up, tbh.


----------



## The39thStep (Jan 22, 2012)

Three line message in the Independent which announces that  Hari has left the Independent


----------



## DaveCinzano (Mar 23, 2012)

Robert Fisk next up for a touch of the old scrutiny:

http://www.private-eye.co.uk/sections.php?section_link=street_of_shame&issue=1310


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 23, 2012)

Nothing at all there.


----------



## Barking_Mad (Mar 24, 2012)

..


----------



## butchersapron (Jul 31, 2012)

Another one bites the dust



> Writer Jonah Lehrer resigned from the New Yorker on Monday after admitting that he had fabricated quotes from Bob Dylan in his nonfiction book "Imagine: How Creativity Works." The book has been recalled by publisher Houghton Mifflin Harcourt.


 


> “Three weeks ago, I received an email from journalist Michael Moynihan asking about Bob Dylan quotes in my book ‘Imagine,’ ” Mr. Lehrer said in a statement. “The quotes in question either did not exist, were unintentional misquotations, or represented improper combinations of previously existing quotes. But I told Mr. Moynihan that they were from archival interview footage provided to me by Dylan’s representatives. This was a lie spoken in a moment of panic. When Mr. Moynihan followed up, I continued to lie, and say things I should not have said.”
> “The lies are over now. I understand the gravity of my position
> 
> 
> > I think we better check wikipedia.


----------



## Meltingpot (Sep 27, 2012)

I thought this article of Johann Hari's (which I've just read) was a good one;

http://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/commen...nn-hari-twitter-and-the-importance-of-critics


----------



## redsquirrel (Sep 27, 2012)

Fuck him, the shitty little toad.


----------



## maldwyn (Sep 27, 2012)

> *now with footnotes


----------



## sihhi (Jan 11, 2013)

The lying (is it still OK to call to call him that) Hari is in Switzerland writing his book about drugs 

https://twitter.com/johannhari101/status/287605754708516865

"I'm in Switzerland doing research for m'book. Impossible to say 'Ou est la gare?' without feeling like a 13-yr old GCSE student"
My guess for its conclusion: 'Legalisation will save Britain. Drugs are a choice, drug dealers provide a service'


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 12, 2013)

sihhi said:


> My guess for its conclusion: 'Legalisation will save Britain. Drugs are a choice, drug dealers provide a service'


 
If fairness, dealers do provide a service, just an illegal one. Some people want drugs and crooks will supply that demand whether it's legal or not. Organised crime in particular is essentially the continuation of corporate business by other means where supply and demand is the only law that's observed.


----------



## phildwyer (Jan 12, 2013)

sihhi said:


> https://twitter.com/johannhari101/status/287605754708516865


 
He's dropped about five stone.


----------



## Greebo (Jan 12, 2013)

phildwyer said:


> He's dropped about five stone.


That's hardly news, how is it relevant to his more recent work?


----------



## Sweet FA (Jan 12, 2013)

sihhi said:


> "I'm in Switzerland doing research for m'book. Impossible to say 'Ou est la gare?' without feeling like a 13-yr old GCSE student"



*The Firm* ‏@*TheFirmOnline*
@*johannhari101* A work of fiction, presumably?
*Details* 

 *Reply* 
 *Retweet* 
 *Favorite*


----------



## SpineyNorman (Jan 12, 2013)

sihhi said:


> The lying (is it still OK to call to call him that) Hari is in Switzerland writing his book about drugs
> 
> https://twitter.com/johannhari101/status/287605754708516865
> 
> ...


 
Great. The last thing an issue as sensitive, complex and important as drug addiction needs is Johan Fucking Hari.


----------



## Firky (Jun 18, 2013)

.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 19, 2013)

https://twitter.com/johannhari101/status/347337630628839426

Johann Hari is a fan of the Oxford student feminism project.

Can some of the Proletarian Democracy get him on these boards - there are still a few unanswered questions about some of the articles.


----------



## rekil (Jun 19, 2013)

sihhi said:


> https://twitter.com/johannhari101/status/347337630628839426
> 
> Johann Hari is a fan of the Oxford student feminism project.
> 
> Can some of the Proletarian Democracy get him on these boards - there are still a few unanswered questions about some of the articles.


https://twitter.com/ProletarianDem/status/347379188006793216

Let's see.


----------



## sihhi (Jun 19, 2013)

Also interested in the Wikipedia editing as explained by Christina Odone




> At the same time, a mysterious person also started tampering with Hari's enemies' Wikipedia entries. Mine started featuring all kinds of inaccuracies: I had been embroiled in rows over my *anti-semitism* and homophobia (not true); I'd been fired from the Catholic Herald (not true). Tellingly, my Wiki entry also included a long description of how I had attacked Johann Hari. This struck me as curious: in a professional life that included encounters with Pope John Paul II, Tony Blair, Mother Teresa, Gordon Brown and Kingsley Amis, I didn't quite see why Hari merited a paragraph, and the rest didn't get a look in.
> 
> I thought no more about it – until a "friend" of my mother's teased her about my Wikipedia entry. "Your daughter's not exactly a shining beacon of professional integrity," summed up her reaction. She read out the nastier bits of my potted (and manipulated) bio, and my mother was devastated.
> Edward Lucas, my husband, determined to find out what was going on. As Nick Cohen described in his excellent Spectator diary, he soon concluded that a certain "David R" was penning all the vicious attacks on me. The same David R went on to tamper with the Wiki entries of a host of other Hari critics – from Francis Wheen to Nick Cohen. The author's obsessive editing took place on a daily basis, often at dawn; at midnight one Christmas Eve, David R was busily messing up Richard Littlejohn's Wiki entry. Goodwill to all men.
> ...


 
How the hell does he still have a non-fiction book contract?


----------



## frogwoman (Jun 19, 2013)

What the fuck , that's a disgrace.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

It's shameful, and I hope that sub never gets work again.


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> It's shameful, and I hope that sub never gets work again.


It wasn't the sub.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

killer b said:


> It wasn't the sub.


 
No, the sub David Rose who tampered with the wiki entries of Hari's detractors. That's the sub I meant.


----------



## killer b (Jun 19, 2013)

Ah, I was under the impression rose was hari. Or that he'd been using his name to do the editing - didnt read that he'd actually owned up. I should probably read what people post eh?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> No, the sub David Rose who tampered with the wiki entries of Hari's detractors. That's the sub I meant.


 
That is hari. The sub is hari. Hari is David Rose. This was all cleared up ages ago. He dishonestly confessed 'all'.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> That is hari. The sub is hari. Hari is David Rose. This was all cleared up ages ago. He dishonestly confessed 'all'.


 
Really? Fuck. What a devious shite.

Sorry, brain is mushy at the moment. Painkillers.


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> Really? Fuck. What a devious shite.
> 
> Sorry, brain is mushy at the moment. Painkillers.


 
It's a very tangled web indeed!


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> It's a very tangled web indeed!


 
No shit! 

I'm assuming he hasn't pitched up here yet?

Also, is LP a friend of his or not?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> No shit!
> 
> I'm assuming he hasn't pitched up here yet?
> 
> Also, is LP a friend of his or not?


 
They are. When hari was caught out she suggested people pointing out his lies were motivated by homophobia. Never seen him here - i wouldn't be surprised if he'd had a peek though.


----------



## Belushi (Jun 19, 2013)

Did we ever find out who wrote the creepy incest porn?


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 19, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Did we ever find out who wrote the creepy incest porn?


 
Hari wrote the incest paedo porn.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jun 19, 2013)

At least he didn't nick it.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

butchersapron said:


> They are. When hari was caught out she suggested people pointing out his lies were motivated by homophobia.


 
It's the whole criticism & intersectionality thing all over again - the answer to legitimate criticism seems to be to suggest the critic is motivated to 'oppress' the writer in some way, in this case by using his sexuality as a stick to beat with with. Never mind that he has no integrity as a writer and he's blatantly ripping off others, the critics must be homophobes 

No wonder mainstream media is struggling.


----------



## equationgirl (Jun 19, 2013)

FridgeMagnet said:


> At least he didn't nick it.


 
That we know of...


----------



## Firky (Jun 19, 2013)

Belushi said:


> Did we ever find out who wrote the creepy incest porn?


 

Wasn't it Hari?


----------



## sihhi (Jun 19, 2013)

Firky said:


> Wasn't it Hari?


 
That seems to be the conclusion although we have no solid proof.

He also wrote that odd article winking towards "consensual incest" back in 2002:



> Consensual incest has been portrayed sympathetically in popular fiction for centuries, from John Ford's masterful 17th-century play 'Tis Pity She's a Whore to Ian McEwan's novel The Cement Garden and Steven Poliakoff's film Close My Eyes. The writer Kathryn Harrison caused a sensation in 1997 when she published The Kiss, a memoir of an affair with her father, and even in the popular medium of TV, from Jerry Springer (who has featured incestuous sisters on his show) to Brookside (which featured a love affair between siblings Nat and Georgia), incest has been depicted in a not unsympathetic, if somewhat salacious, manner.
> 
> ... snip ... All existing studies of inbred populations show that incest increases the rate of appearance of negative recessive genes.
> 
> ...


 
He also wrote an article 'Legalise Prostitution now' interviewing a male sex worker 'rent boy' which has bizarrely disappeared from his website  used to be here:

http://johannhari.com/2003/07/20/legalise-prostitution-now-/



> Brett once told me, "When I was seventeen and I dropped out of school I went to work in a call centre. It was the worst three months of my life. I was stressed, miserable, constantly being told what to do, running around all the time and I never had any money. Then I started doing rent, and suddenly, when I was working just one or two hours a week, I was earning a fortune. I could buy nice clothes, give money to my mum, and chill out. And I get treated with far more respect by my clients than I ever was in that call centre."


 
His sock-puppeting on Wikipedia was sensational, a user had tagged 'David R' as being an extreme Hari fan constantly deleting references to poor journalism and stuff, this was Hari's response as 'Dave':




> I am also concerned to stop Felix-Felix's persistent personal attacks suggesting that I am somebody else (and presumably libelling Hari in the process); Felix, please do e-mail me at methuselahproductions@hotmail.com and I can send you my phone number so we can talk and you can be assured that I am real and not Hari (I am five stone lighter and ten IQ points lower for a start). Either way, you should stop casting aspersions on me and on Hari, as Charles suggests - Dave


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jun 19, 2013)

quotes Sean Gabb of the nutty little Libertarian Alliance there


----------



## butchersapron (Jun 20, 2013)

Methusala productions were the ones who produced the paedo incest porn. That was the email used above to contact the author.


----------



## The Pale King (Jun 20, 2013)

Given Hari's form I take it 'Rob' from the article doesn't actually exist.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 6, 2014)

A bit of Hari nostalgia...

Recently Space Hijackers has been tweeting links to old event reports; tonight it was the turn of the opening of the Leicester Square branch of Starbucks (2001).

As noted:



> Incidentally this story has since appeared in the New Statesman Magazine in an article written by Johann Hari. Click here to read it
> 
> Curiosly Johann has managed to quote what we said without either being there or having contacted us, unsurprisingly there are several mistakes in his take on what we did. My favourite being a quote from me saying:
> 
> ...



http://www.spacehijackers.org/starbucks/html/lsq.html

cc Bristly Pioneer


----------



## rekil (Oct 7, 2014)

Tell them the link to the NS story doesn't work. It's here.

http://www.newstatesman.com/node/143190


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Tell them the link to the NS story doesn't work. It's here.
> 
> http://www.newstatesman.com/node/143190



It's not even a very interesting, exciting, empowering or titillating article. What's the point in making shit up if it's only to churn out a bog-standard, bland filler piece? Where's the aspiration? The ambition? The reaching for the stars? In fact those were the very words Buzz Aldrin said to me after I showed him the article, as he shook his space-worn salt-and-pepper topped head in scorn.


----------



## rekil (Oct 7, 2014)

Precariat journos gotta bump up the wordcount somehow. 

In a way, by diddling his employer like this, he was a kind of brainworker hero. And we crucified him.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Oct 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Precariat journos gotta bump up the wordcount somehow.



That's why we have adjectives and adverbs and thesauruses and the ability to find the first two in the last one


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2014)

B**brook's book on this.


----------



## Coolfonz (Oct 7, 2014)

DaveCinzano said:


> A bit of Hari nostalgia...
> 
> Recently Space Hijackers has been tweeting links to old event reports; tonight it was the turn of the opening of the Leicester Square branch of Starbucks (2001).
> 
> ...


That's the one I remember! Well, that is the one I could vaguely remember but not enough to actually remember.
What a fucking dick that man is.

Grubby, what you got on him cuz?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2014)

copliker said:


> Precariat journos gotta bump up the wordcount somehow.
> 
> In a way, by diddling his employer like this, he was a kind of brainworker hero. And we crucified him.


Because he was ripping off other writers left right and centre. Sure he got one over on his employer but at someone else's expense. He's no hero of the proletariat.


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2014)

He's due to author Noam Chomsky's 'auto'biography, according to pobitch


----------



## butchersapron (Oct 7, 2014)

belboid said:


> He's due to author Noam Chomsky's 'auto'biography, according to pobitch


The same chomksy who called him a liar?


----------



## equationgirl (Oct 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The same chomksy who called him a liar?


I reckon Noam would write it himself.


----------



## belboid (Oct 7, 2014)

butchersapron said:


> The same chomksy who called him a liar?


well, he knows he knows how to pass of his writing as someone else's


----------



## Bakunin (Oct 7, 2014)

belboid said:


> He's due to author Noam Chomsky's 'auto'biography, according to pobitch



Probably the first Chomsky's heard about it.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Oct 8, 2014)

equationgirl said:


> I reckon Noam would write it himself.


 
I think he'd say he's got about a hundred more interesting things to do than write an autobiography tbh. Or a thousand more interesting things than sit and talk to Johann Hari about himself.


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## DaveCinzano (Oct 8, 2014)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> I think he'd say he's got about a hundred more interesting things to do than write an autobiography tbh. Or a thousand more interesting things than sit and talk to Johann Hari about himself.


Which is why it is such a boon to have a ghost writer who doesn't even need to be in the same room, on the phone to or indeed in the same spatial dimension as the person whom he is ‘interviewing’.


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## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2015)

Bollocks

Johann Hari: ‘I failed badly. When you harm people, you should shut up, go away and reflect on what happened'


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## brogdale (Jan 2, 2015)

butchersapron said:


> Bollocks
> 
> Johann Hari: ‘I failed badly. When you harm people, you should shut up, go away and reflect on what happened'


Ghosted by Brand.


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## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2015)

Genius stuff here:

_I’ve got to know Hari a bit over the past two years..._

_I was the first person in my family to go to a fancy university _(the usual cred establishing I was the first person in my family to go to a university clearly not applying)

_But this is totally unrelated to the things I did wrong journalistically,” he says quickly. “This is really important. I did those things before and during the use of this drug. So I want to make it clear that I’m not in any way attributing anything I did to that drug use. They are totally separate things_. It's for you to conclude that i did.

My god, the new statesman flushed him out apparently.

Disassociation from actions:

_The humiliation must have been toe-curling, but when I ask how he dealt with it, he says, “I just think that would be asking people to see it from my point of view.” Sympathy should be for the people he smeared online, for the Independent and its readers: “Not for me.”

--

“It was incredibly humiliating, yes. It was absolutely devastating, and I fell apart. But I would not want to live in a culture where people could be horrible about other people under a pseudonym online, or act as if something someone had written had been said directly to you, and not pay a big price for it.”_


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## Pickman's model (Jan 2, 2015)

from butchersapron's link:





> Hari’s book turns out to be a page-turner, full of astonishing revelations.


and how many of them lies, i wonder.


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## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2015)

Guardian bubble writer talks to guardian bubble mate needing a favour for guardian bubble.


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## Citizen66 (Jan 2, 2015)

I used to quite like Hari. He could write quite persuasively, sort of the Indie's answer to Melanie Philips. Then he justified Iraq, I shifted further to the left and then didn't read him again really.


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## butchersapron (Jan 2, 2015)

Pickman's model said:


> from butchersapron's link:and how many of them lies, i wonder.


I'm not sure about lies but there are already serious questions about what he writes as compared to the recordings in his _honest phase._


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