# iOS 11 will 'render older iPhones, iPads and apps obsolete'



## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

Bed news Apple fans. 


> Apple has announced that its new iOS 11, launched at its developer conference in San Jose, will only operate on 64-bit devices, making the iPhone 5 and 5C, among other devices, obsolete and meaning some apps and games may stop working.
> 
> The new version of iOS features a new interface and redesigned App Store, but also removes support for 32-bit devices and apps. Apple’s iPhone and iPads have both used 64-bit processors, which allow the system to use larger amounts of memory among other speed advantages, since the A7 processor came with the iPhone 5S and iPad Air in 2013.
> 
> ...


iOS 11 will render older iPhones, iPads and apps obsolete


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 6, 2017)

It's hard to blame Apple for their unscrupulous business model, when their customers fans gladly put up with any amount of shit, screaming 'give me more!'


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> It's hard to blame Apple for their unscrupulous business model, when their customers fans gladly put up with any amount of shit, screaming 'give me more!'


What's that you say? £99 for an Apple Pencil?


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## joustmaster (Jun 6, 2017)

iPhone 5 was discontinued 4 years a go. Which is a fair enough time to stop supporting it. 
But the 5c was only discontinued 2 years ago. Which is a little bit shit.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> iPhone 5 was discontinued 4 years a go. Which is a fair enough time to stop supporting it.
> But the 5c was only discontinued 2 years ago. Which is a little bit shit.


But don't forget: "But it also means that for users of Apple’s newer smartphones and tablet computers, including the latest iPhone 7 and iPad, some apps that are 32-bit-only and not coded to operate in a 64-bit system will cease to work once their devices are updated to iOS 11."


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## bi0boy (Jun 6, 2017)

Old software in not supported shocker!

In other news my ipad doesn't have a floppy disk drive. The injustice!


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 6, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Old software in not supported shocker!
> 
> In other news my ipad doesn't have a floppy disk drive. The injustice!


As if to prove my point


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## joustmaster (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> But don't forget: "But it also means that for users of Apple’s newer smartphones and tablet computers, including the latest iPhone 7 and iPad, some apps that are 32-bit-only and not coded to operate in a 64-bit system will cease to work once their devices are updated to iOS 11."


I don't think thats a huge worry.
Apple have been telling developers to update their apps since the beginning of 2015.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Old software in not supported shocker!
> 
> In other news my ipad doesn't have a floppy disk drive. The injustice!


Get out your wallet AND START UPGRADING!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2017)

So my 5 year old iPad won't get any further updates but will continue to function perfectly well, exactly as it does now?

OMG THE HORROR.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So my 5 year old iPad won't get any further updates but will continue to function perfectly well, exactly as it does now?
> 
> OMG THE HORROR.


What if you bought a 5c last year?

No, I already know your answer. It's Apple so it's OK.

PS Security updates? Pfft! Who needs them?!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> What if you bought a 5c last year?
> 
> No, I already know your answer. It's Apple so it's OK.


The 5c bit is somewhat harsh, yes. But it's not as if it will suddenly cease to function, the phone will continue to do everything it ever has.

Much like all those Android phones out there still running older versions of the OS, no?


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## maomao (Jun 6, 2017)

My wife has an iPad (3?) that has to be 4 or 5 years old. Still in perfect condition and used daily. Is this likely to affect her? She doesn't need to be downloading new apps. She needs to browse the Internet and put Peppa Pig on for the bairn.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> The 5c bit is somewhat harsh, yes.


Understatement of the year.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

maomao said:


> My wife has an iPad (3?) that has to be 4 or 5 years old. Still in perfect condition and used daily. Is this likely to affect her? She doesn't need to be downloading new apps. She needs to browse the Internet and put Peppa Pig on for the bairn.


It won't get any security or system updates as it can't run the new 64 bit OS.


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## pengaleng (Jun 6, 2017)

lol i aint updated my os for like 2 years, can never be fucked


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## pengaleng (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> So my 5 year old iPad won't get any further updates but will continue to function perfectly well, exactly as it does now?
> 
> OMG THE HORROR.




this lol


am surprised anyone gives a fuck tbh let alone someone whos sucking off android devices


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## souljacker (Jun 6, 2017)

Just for balance, my Nexus 6p, released in September 2015, will stop receiving updates in sept 2017. It will get security updates until sept 2018.

So that's a 3 year support life cycle making Apples support for old devices (until now) pretty good.

But yeah, 5c users will be annoyed.


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> iPhone 5 was discontinued 4 years a go. Which is a fair enough time to stop supporting it.
> But the 5c was only discontinued 2 years ago. Which is a little bit shit.


 They are basically the same anyway. 

 I still use my five for some things.  There are apps on it now not supposed to work. I just won't update them.  The security thing is a concern though.


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## pengaleng (Jun 6, 2017)

well the C stood for crap so they should purchase  the S for stability


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## pengaleng (Jun 6, 2017)

like if you got facebook then this really shouldnt bother you

you cant be all about security features if willing to use that piece of shit


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

I thought Google only support the pixel phone  for two years as well.


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## EastEnder (Jun 6, 2017)

souljacker said:


> Just for balance, my Nexus 6p, released in September 2015, will stop receiving updates in sept 2017. It will get security updates until sept 2018.
> 
> So that's a 3 year support life cycle making Apples support for old devices (until now) pretty good.
> 
> But yeah, 5c users will be annoyed.


_So_ annoyed, they'll go out and give Apple more lovely cash!!

Surely by now everyone knows that getting into bed with Apple means periodically shelling out big time just to stay in the game. Any fanboi who's crying into their avocado toast over this needs a serious reality check.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2017)

maomao said:


> My wife has an iPad (3?) that has to be 4 or 5 years old. Still in perfect condition and used daily. Is this likely to affect her? She doesn't need to be downloading new apps. She needs to browse the Internet and put Peppa Pig on for the bairn.


It won't make one single difference to her. It will continue to function perfectly.


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

I know it's quite a shocking thing to take on board.  But not everyone that owns an iPhone is an Apple fan boy.  I don't intend upgrading from my 6S this year.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jun 6, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> Surely by now everyone knows that getting into bed with Apple means periodically shelling out big time just to stay in the game.


Well, I'm typing this on a nearly 5 years old laptop and my iPad is a similar age. Both function as well as they did the day I bought them and I see no reason to replace either for years yet. 

So while their initial cost was a bit more than any PC/Android equivalents I'm fairly sure they'll cost me less in the long run as well as being far nicer to use. Win win!


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## EastEnder (Jun 6, 2017)

xenon said:


> I thought Google only support the pixel phone  for two years as well.


The comparison with Google, or more specifically Android, is not entirely equivalent, simply for the reason that, due to the open marketplace of Android devices, it's possible to buy _cheap_, *new* phones easily. The only way to get cheap Apple devices is on the secondhand market - one where OS obsolescence is far more problematic.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> far nicer to use.


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## EastEnder (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, I'm typing this on a nearly 5 years old laptop and my iPad is a similar age. Both function as well as they did the day I bought them and I see no reason to replace either for years yet.
> 
> So while their initial cost was a bit more than any PC/Android equivalents I'm fairly sure they'll cost me less in the long run as well as being far nicer to use. Win win!


My laptop & desktop are both way older than that & still work fine - and they run Linux, so were cheap to buy, super cheap to run & still work well today!


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## pengaleng (Jun 6, 2017)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Well, I'm typing this on a nearly 5 years old laptop and my iPad is a similar age. Both function as well as they did the day I bought them and I see no reason to replace either for years yet.
> 
> So while their initial cost was a bit more than any PC/Android equivalents I'm fairly sure they'll cost me less in the long run as well as being far nicer to use. Win win!




I been using a 2009 iMac for all this time, still functions perfectly


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> The comparison with Google, or more specifically Android, is not entirely equivalent, simply for the reason that, due to the open marketplace of Android devices, it's possible to buy _cheap_, *new* phones easily. The only way to get cheap Apple devices is on the secondhand market - one where OS obsolescence is far more problematic.




 And do they all get security updates for 3+ years?  KitKat, lollipop whatever those devices are running.


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## EastEnder (Jun 6, 2017)

xenon said:


> And do they all get security updates for 3+ years?  KitKat, lollipop whatever those devices are running.


You've missed the point - you can buy *new*, *cheap* Android devices that run the _latest_ version of Android. The only way to buy cheap iOS devices is on the secondhand market.

Obviously you can also buy new, expensive Android devices. The point is that if you're strapped for cash, the only way to become to a fanboi is to buy secondhand, and then you run into the OS obsolescence trap.


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## alex_ (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> What if you bought a 5c last year?
> 
> No, I already know your answer. It's Apple so it's OK.
> 
> PS Security updates? Pfft! Who needs them?!



Which phone do you use which gets updates in perpetuity ?

Alex


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## bi0boy (Jun 6, 2017)

Who has been claiming that Apple phones are cheaper than Android ones


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## alex_ (Jun 6, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Who has been claiming that Apple phones are cheaper than Android ones



No one who understands numbers !


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## Sea Star (Jun 6, 2017)

Nemesisuk - got anything to contribute?


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

alex_ said:


> Which phone do you use which gets updates in perpetuity ?
> 
> Alex


*checks previous posts

Nope, never made that claim. Any more strawmen to present?


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## souljacker (Jun 6, 2017)

EastEnder said:


> You've missed the point - you can buy *new*, *cheap* Android devices that run the _latest_ version of Android.



They'll be shit though


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## alex_ (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> *checks previous posts
> 
> Nope, never made that claim. Any more strawmen to present?



So what are you criticising Apple for exactly ?

"Security updates? Pfft! Who needs them?!"

Something which happens to every operating system ?

Alex 

Just realised I've fallen for clickbait.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

souljacker said:


> They'll be shit though


Thing is, they're not. You can pick up perfectly good phones for around a £100. Really.


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## bi0boy (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> Thing is, they're not. You can pick up perfectly good phones for around a £100. Really.



If only all those apple buyers were aware of this. I also suggest telling Audi drivers you can get a perfectly good new car for under £10k, such as the Dacia Duster.


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## souljacker (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> Thing is, they're not. You can pick up perfectly good phones for around a £100. Really.



Please don't tell me that the motos are good phones. I had one. It was shite.


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## Nemesisuk (Jun 6, 2017)

AuntiStella said:


> Nemesisuk - got anything to contribute?




Apple cheaper than Android phones. Utter nonsense as most Android phones are nowhere near the price of even the cheapest Apple phone.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

souljacker said:


> Please don't tell me that the motos are good phones. I had one. It was shite.


I've no interest in trying to interfere with the Apple Reality Distortion Field.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 6, 2017)

souljacker said:


> Please don't tell me that the motos are good phones. I had one. It was shite.



I'm pleasantly surprised with the G4 and that's coming to from a Note 4. Never done a budget phone before as when I've used them they'd always been crap, but this runs everything I need with no slowdown and I didn't want another expensive contract.  Main thing that bugs me is the camera isnt as good as my Samsung, but its a fraction of the price, so it's understandable.


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## souljacker (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> I've no interest in trying to interfere with the Apple Reality Distortion Field.



That doesn't make any sense.


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## moomoo (Jun 6, 2017)

I've just got a 5SE. Presumably that's going to be fine?


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## Winot (Jun 6, 2017)

moomoo said:


> I've just got a 5SE. Presumably that's going to be fine?



Do you mean an SE or a 5S? Anyway both are fine according to this (scroll to bottom):

iOS 11 Preview


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> iPhone 5 was discontinued 4 years a go. Which is a fair enough time to stop supporting it.
> But the 5c was only discontinued 2 years ago. Which is a little bit shit.


I don't see this as particularly big news tbh. Hardware is still improving at quite a pace and I think it's perfectly reasonable for a company to stop supporting older hardware. The average length of time that folks keep their mobiles for is about 2 years so I don't think dropping support after 4/5 years is outrageous. In most cases the older phones/tablets will continue to function ok (batteries will probably be the first thing to conk out), and any critical security holes will most likely be fixed with emergency patches even after official support has ended. Nothing to see here. The 5c was really a repackaged 5 with the same internals that were introduced in 2012, so nearly 5 years old, which is a long time in phone technology years.


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## joustmaster (Jun 6, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> I don't see this as particularly big news tbh. Hardware is still improving at quite a pace and I think it's perfectly reasonable for a company to stop supporting older hardware. The average length of time that folks keep their mobiles for is about 2 years so I don't think dropping support after 4/5 years is outrageous. In most cases the older phones/tablets will continue to function ok (batteries will probably be the first thing to conk out), and any critical security holes will most likely be fixed with emergency patches even after official support has ended. Nothing to see here. The 5c was really a repackaged 5 with the same internals that were introduced in 2012, so nearly 5 years old, which is a long time in phone technology years.


But they were selling the 5c  as "new" until 20 month ago. And, apparently, as new in India until 16 months ago.


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## lefteri (Jun 6, 2017)

What's really annoying about apple is that their hardware is really well made and long outlasts the software and apple and other developers' support for it. Of course it makes capitalist sense but it's hugely wasteful of resources when it has the potential not to be.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> But they were selling the 5c  as "new" until 20 month ago. And, apparently, as new in India until 16 months ago.


I hear what you're saying, but it wasn't really "new", it was repackaged "old". The IOS11 announcement doesn't mean that existing 5c's will stop working overnight. I presume that they'll still be working with IOS10 until they die. My father is still using the £50 handmedown iphone 4s which I think is running IOS10 and it's still functional. I don't think this is as big a story as the clickbait headlines are making it out to be.


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## alex_ (Jun 6, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> But they were selling the 5c  as "new" until 20 month ago. And, apparently, as new in India until 16 months ago.



Incidentally 20 months support would be a lenghty support period in the android world.

Would be interesting to know if the cheap android phones mentioned ever get an up to date version of android. 

Alex


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

I forgot, I've still got an Ipod 3g too. Jailbroken and still works fine, though slow. I forget which iOS it's on, should have stuck with the previous one. It's on 6 I think. The battery is predictably fucked of course but works fine as a little media player / ereader.


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 6, 2017)

Re: The Xperia Z3 isn’t even two years old yet, but it’s not getting Nougat



editor said:


> I'm not really bothered as I'll be dumping that as soon as I catch a whiff on the next Nexus!
> 
> It's a shitty thing for Sony to do, mind.



Nother really bothered when it happens on Android eh?


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

mwgdrwg said:


> Nother really bothered when it happens on Android eh?
> 
> (when Sony phones less than 20 months old don't get the latest OS)


Wait, you're referencing a different thread about a different phone - but it's one where I clearly state that dropping support in two years is a shitty thing to do?  So what is your point caller? 

It's a shitty thing for Sony to do and it's a shitty thing for Apple to do, but clearly a fuck load more people will be affected by Apple's decision as it's not just about one, relatively minor, phone, but a slew of more expensive devices.


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## mwgdrwg (Jun 6, 2017)

Different thread, but pertinent.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

lefteri said:


> What's really annoying about apple is that their hardware is really well made and long outlasts the software and apple and other developers' support for it. Of course it makes capitalist sense but it's hugely wasteful of resources when it has the potential not to be.


I have not bought into the apple ecosystem myself, but my understanding is that the older hardware will continue to work with the previous versions of the OS, it just won't have the very latest updates. I don't think that's such a big deal tbh. There are quite a lot of people that if they were given the choice can't be arsed with updates. In the Android world, less than 5% of android users are on Nougat. There are still twice as many users of Jellybean which is nearly 5 years old compared to Nougat. The most popular Android version currently in use is Lollipop. So users don't always want or need the latest version.  I also get the impression that sort of people who buy iphones are the ones that frequently upgrade their hardware and that it's the second hand users that are most likely to be the ones that are affected by older hardware no longer supported by the latest ios.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> In the Android world, less than 5% of android users are on Nougat. There are still twice as many users of Jellybean which is nearly 5 years old compared to Nougat.


Your figures are way off, by the way.

But don't forget a lot of people on Android are on rock bottom cheapo handsets often with quite undemanding needs, and crucially haven't shelled out hundreds of pounds for a premium handset like the iPhone.

But dropping support after 2 years = shitty thing to do, whoever is making the handsets.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> Your figures are way off, by the way.
> 
> But don't forget a lot of people on Android are on rock bottom cheapo handsets often with quite undemanding needs, and crucially haven't shelled out hundreds of pounds for a premium handset like the iPhone.
> 
> But dropping support after 2 years = shitty thing to do, whoever is making the handsets.


Well they were not my figures, but I suppose it depends on who you ask and how they do the counting. Anyway regardless, even though I'm not an apple user I don't think it's a big deal and I don't think it's particularly shitty at all. Only one particular model fits into the "dropped after 2 years" category (the 5c) and its not as if it's going to stop working as soon as ios11 comes out. The people who buy into the apple ecosystem and can afford to shell out hundreds of pounds to buy those handsets are also the ones who update their handsets regularly. Those of us on the outside looking in are not affected. I think the headlines are a bit overdramatic, but then exaggeration and hype is what sells papers isn't it.


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## xenon (Jun 6, 2017)

It's longer than two years.  The iPhone 5 came out in 2012.  The 5C  2013.  And as I said before it's the same phone as the five just in a different case.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

xenon said:


> It's longer than two years.  The iPhone 5 came out in 2012.  The 5C  2013.  And as I said before it's the same phone as the five just in a different case.


Yeah but I think they're referring to the date when it stopped being sold. I agree it was basically a repackaged 5 so the innards are 5 years old now which is ancient in phone years.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> Well they were not my figures, but I suppose it depends on who you ask


That's from April.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 6, 2017)

editor said:


> That's from April.


Doesn't really matter, the second one was from May and neither of them were that far off, but anyway it doesn't change the point I was making which was that unless they are forced to, a lot of people find upgrades too much of a hassle and they won't be that bothered and will quite happily stick with what they have. The screaming headlines make it sound like it's almost going to be the end of the world and that everything will suddenly stop working as soon as iOS11 comes out. Hype over substance.


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## editor (Jun 6, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> The screaming headlines make it sound like it's almost going to be the end of the world


Err, what were you saying about hype?


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## sim667 (Jun 7, 2017)

Well my ipad 4 won't be supported, but its not the end of the world to be honest.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

sim667 said:


> Well my ipad 4 won't be supported, but its not the end of the world to be honest.


Asus lost interest in updating my old Transformer tablet/laptops. Again, not the end of the world, but a bit fucking annoying.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Err, what were you saying about hype?


What?  I take it that you haven't seen your own clickbaity thread title then?  
There is no need for users of said older iOS devices to panic or to be overly concerned, they will still be usable.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> What?  I take it that you haven't seen your own clickbaity thread title then?
> There is no need for users of said older iOS devices to panic or to be overly concerned, they will still be usable.


The title seems pretty self explanatory to me. A clickbait title would be worded very differently.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

A lot of people seem to be missing the point.
It's all well and good saying "_*I*_ don't update my phone's software, so it doesn't matter", but what if _I_ want to update _*my*_ device to the latest firmware/operating system?

I have a Samsung Galaxy S4 and an S5. Both are old phones and both are running the latest Android 7.1.2 Nougat.








I even have an old Nokia Lumia 625 Windows phone, which I commandeered from my mother when I converted her to Android. The Lumia is running windows 10.






I think it's bad form when a 2 year old iPhone can't be updated to the lastest OS.


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## joustmaster (Jun 7, 2017)

It will be interesting to see how many 32bit app's are removed from the store, when the developers lose interest in supporting two copies of their apps. 
I wonder how long until the app store is a ghost town for older devices.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

joustmaster said:


> It will be interesting to see how many 32bit app's are removed from the store, when the developers lose interest in supporting two copies of their apps.
> I wonder how long until the app store is a ghost town for older devices.


That's an excellent point/question.


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 7, 2017)

Tbh the constant updates are annoying.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2017)

Given the majority of users are probably not running these old devices I doubt it's that big a deal. Besides, tech moves on and as we saw with the big attack on the NHS the one thing you don't want is to support old machines for too long.


.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Old software in not supported shocker!
> 
> In other news my ipad doesn't have a floppy disk drive. The injustice!



Yep funny how no one is getting irate about all those android phones from 2010 no longer being supported.


.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2017)

moomoo said:


> I've just got a 5SE. Presumably that's going to be fine?



Yep.


.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 7, 2017)

For those who want to actually understand beyond the bleating of the  editor this is about the move to 64bit architecture.


.


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## NoXion (Jun 7, 2017)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Given the majority of users are probably not running these old devices I doubt it's that big a deal. Besides, tech moves on and as we saw with the big attack on the NHS the one thing you don't want is to support old machines for too long.
> 
> 
> .



If XP was still supported then the NHS wouldn't have suffered as badly. It's the lack of support that degrades security, not the age of the software or the hardware.


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## NoXion (Jun 7, 2017)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Yep funny how no one is getting irate about all those android phones from 2010 no longer being supported.
> 
> 
> .



They all do the planned obsolescence thing, but as has been pointed out earlier on this thread, it's particularly bad with Apple because the turnover is quick and customers are effectively locked-in hardware wise. I suppose it's possible to run iOS on say, a Samsung phone but I've never heard of it happening, probably because it's a pain in the arse to do.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Magnus McGinty said:


> Tbh the constant updates are annoying.


That is a common complaint nowadays and a lot of people are a bit fed up with it even if they are told that they are safer with updates.



Saul Goodman said:


> A lot of people seem to be missing the point.
> It's all well and good saying "_*I*_ don't update my phone's software, so it doesn't matter", but what if _I_ want to update _*my*_ device to the latest firmware/operating system?


That option may or may not be available depending on how old your hardware is and what new hardware/software/os advances have been made.



Saul Goodman said:


> I have a Samsung Galaxy S4 and an S5. Both are old phones and both are running the latest Android 7.1.2 Nougat.


I presume you had to root them with custom ROMS. Where there's a will there's a way. I don't know exactly how these things work but I presume that iphones can also be jailbroken for those desperate enough to try to get the latest features working on their older hardware. (99% of people can't be arsed with all that).



Saul Goodman said:


> I even have an old Nokia Lumia 625 Windows phone, which I commandeered from my mother when I converted her to Android. The Lumia is running windows 10.


We also have a Lumia 625 in our house, excellent battery life, not used much because sonny cracked the screen, but it's still running Windows 8 and there is no desire to upgrade it.



Saul Goodman said:


> I think it's bad form when a 2 year old iPhone can't be updated to the lastest OS.


As has been pointed out earlier, it's only the 5C that falls into that category and it's innards are 5 years old and the 5c wasn't one of their big sellers.  I don't think there'll be too many people complaining about this, non iphone users appear to be more bothered about this than iphone users.  If users were genuinely being screwed over then they would stop buying iphones, but Apple makes more money just from iphone sales than all of Microsoft so it would seem that people and developers are voting with their wallets and app development.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Kid_Eternity said:


> Given the majority of users are probably not running these old devices I doubt it's that big a deal. Besides, tech moves on and as we saw with the big attack on the NHS the one thing you don't want is to support old machines for too long.


It's much ado about nothing. All technology has a shelf life and it's a little naive to expect that the expensive cutting edge bling device you buy today will work forever. Having said that it would of course be better if we had less of the "built in obsolescence" and throw away/disposable attitude to our devices, but I think we will eventually get closer to that as Moores Law comes to an end and things settle down a bit. Right now we are still in the middle of big advances in processing, storage and miniaturisation and things have moved on quite a bit since the first iphone was introduced.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> non iphone users appear to be more bothered about this than iphone users.



Could that be because non iPhone users generally aren't fanbois and brand snobs, who put up with anything Apple decides to throw at them, because Apple?




PaoloSanchez said:


> If users were genuinely being screwed over then they would stop buying iphones



No, they wouldn't.


----------



## pengaleng (Jun 7, 2017)

this whole obsession with mnerrrrrr apple is fucking pathetic, get a phone, dont get a phone, only you gives a fuck.


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> this whole obsession with mnerrrrrr apple is fucking pathetic, get a phone, dont get a phone, only you gives a fuck.


Yet here you are, still posting away about it.


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> As has been pointed out earlier, it's only the 5C that falls into that category and it's innards are 5 years old and the 5c wasn't one of their big sellers.


Yes. it only managed to scrape by on a paltry 24 million sales.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> Could that be because non iPhone users generally aren't fanbois and brand snobs, who put up with anything Apple decides to throw at them, because Apple?


I guess that's a possibility, but if a product is really that crap or hideously poor value for money, they wouldn't sell, even with the slickest advertising. The customers must be reasonably happy and that appears to be reflected in the profits and sales. I suspect that there's a touch of Apple envy here, and a bit of Google is god fanboyism. All of the techno companies have their good side and bad side/dodgy practices. Apple just happens to be quite good at packaging decent quality hardware/software that "just works"...or at least works better than many other hardware/software combinations.

...and no, I'm not an Apple fanboy, I do not own any Apple products myself but there are a couple of 12 year old ipods knocking around...and they still work.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Yes. it only managed to scrape by on a paltry 24 million sales.


Indeed, which is Apple small beer and a relative flop for them, but still outsold all the Android flagships around at the time. Of those users still using a 5c, their phones aren't going to stop working because ios11, and those non-iphone users aren't affected anyways, so what's the problem?


----------



## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> Indeed, which is Apple small beer and a relative flop for them, but still outsold all the Android flagships around at the time. Of those users still using a 5c, their phones aren't going to stop working because ios11, and those non-iphone users aren't affected anyways, so what's the problem?


Oh, OK. There's no problem.


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## bi0boy (Jun 7, 2017)

NoXion said:


> If XP was still supported then the NHS wouldn't have suffered as badly. It's the lack of support that degrades security, not the age of the software or the hardware.



It is supported - the latest update is called Windows 10.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

NoXion said:


> If XP was still supported then the NHS wouldn't have suffered as badly. It's the lack of support that degrades security, not the age of the software or the hardware.


XP was fully supported but admins declined to download the upgrades leaving them with an out of date, unpatched and vulnerable system - much like people who are on truly unsupported systems.


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## Vintage Paw (Jun 7, 2017)

Him indoors is still using my old 3G and he's still coping just fine.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> I guess that's a possibility, but if a product is really that crap or hideously poor value for money, they wouldn't sell, even with the slickest advertising. The customers must be reasonably happy and that appears to be reflected in the profits and sales. I suspect that there's a touch of Apple envy here, and a bit of Google is god fanboyism. All of the techno companies have their good side and bad side/dodgy practices. Apple just happens to be quite good at packaging decent quality hardware/software that "just works"...or at least works better than many other hardware/software combinations.
> 
> ...and no, I'm not an Apple fanboy, I do not own any Apple products myself but there are a couple of 12 year old ipods knocking around...and they still work.



You seem to assume sales volume is related to quality.
I'm definitely no fanboi, of any brand, nor do I have "Apple envy". I have owned an iPhone, on which the home button broke... twice! I currently own Huawei, Samsung, Nokia, Xiaomi and Vernee phones, and all of them are, in my opinion, much better value for money than any iPhone.

I want only one thing from a phone. Good value for money. I have absolutely no problem with anyone purchasing any phone they desire, but Apple products don't, to me, represent good value for money.

The 'best' phone I currently own is a Xiaomi Mi5s. It has 4G of RAM, 128G storage, the same camera as the Google Pixel XL, and is, IMHO, a much better phone than an iPhone 7... at 1/3 of the price.



PaoloSanchez said:


> Indeed, which is Apple small beer and a relative flop for them, but still outsold all the Android flagships around at the time. Of those users still using a 5c, their phones aren't going to stop working because ios11, and those non-iphone users aren't affected anyways, so what's the problem?



Are only (current) iPhone users allowed an opinion?


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

editor said:


> XP was fully supported but admins declined to download the upgrades leaving them with an out of date, unpatched and vulnerable system - much like people who are on truly unsupported systems.



I think what happened was, and I stand to be corrected, that due to budget cuts, the NHS could no longer afford the Microsoft service plan, which meant no updates, leading to vulnerabilities.

The problem with upgrading to another version of Windows is that the softwares used by hospitals, even if it could even be replaced with versions compatible with a newer Windows OS, would cost far more than the NHS could possibly afford to spend. Thanks to Jeremy Hunt and the Tories.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2017)

You can't beat the hardware, its tough. I mistakenly sat on my ipad mini for a whole day yesterday (it was under a cushion on a hard chair), I dropped it, the dog has sat on it, three years on, all still works. My mate is considering finally replacing her Mac laptop which is now 8. 
Ive a moto g android phone, cheap, yes. But the screen cracked after just one week, which is shit. Im never having another Samsung as it went to shit, too quickly.  I love android as an os, but I wish the hardware was a bit better. 
I always use pcs and I love win 10 but the build quality/battery life (its a yoga 2 pro) is not the same as apple although the screen is a higher resolution and it actually has an identical processor to the macbook air. Three years of use and the ssd is failing. I will buy another yoga again though, I use it as a monitor in tent mode.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2017)

maomao said:


> My wife has an iPad (3?) that has to be 4 or 5 years old. Still in perfect condition and used daily. Is this likely to affect her? She doesn't need to be downloading new apps. She needs to browse the Internet and put Peppa Pig on for the bairn.


My friend is a writer and still uses her ipad 1. It does what she wants it to do, which is to write when shes at her familys beach house, where a laptop would be impractical. My partner has my old ipad 3. I dont think he updated the os in two years. He uses it for reading graphic novels and playing games. Horses for courses and all that.


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## editor (Jun 7, 2017)

pinkmonkey said:


> You can't beat the hardware, its tough. I mistakenly sat on my ipad mini for a whole day yesterday (it was under a cushion on a hard chair), I dropped it, the dog has sat on it, three years on, all still works. My mate is considering finally replacing her Mac laptop which is now 8.
> Ive a moto g android phone, cheap, yes. But the screen cracked after just one week, which is shit. Im never having another Samsung as it went to shit, too quickly.  I love android as an os, but I wish the hardware was a bit better.
> I always use pcs and I love win 10 but the build quality/battery life (its a yoga 2 pro) is not the same as apple although the screen is a higher resolution and it actually has an identical processor to the macbook air. Three years of use and the ssd is failing. I will buy another yoga again though, I use it as a monitor in tent mode.


Samsung make the screens for many Apple products and there's plenty of cracked iPhone screens out there - it's mainly down to bad luck unless you pay for the top of the line line stuff or extra tough ones like the Moto X Force. I'd say Thinkpads are easily the match for Apple products when it comes to durability too - and they're easier to fix.


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## elbows (Jun 7, 2017)

From a tech point of view, dropping 32 bit support at some point makes sense. It would have been much better if they had waited longer since the last time they sold brand new 32 bit devices before doing this though.

Personally in the past I've felt screwed by both Apple and Google - Apple when a new iOS version made my iphone 3G stupidly slow before its time, and Google over a Nexus tablet which, given what the Nexus name was marketed as representing, did not even come close to living up to my expectations in terms of how many years I could get new android versions for it. Both of these caused me to switch companies the next time I bought a device.

Built in obsolescence is a primary reason why I cannot take the 'green credentials' of IT hardware companies seriously. Only if we ever get past this sort of business model will I start to think we have gone beyond the easy greenwashing phase of saving the planet.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> I suspect that there's a touch of Apple envy here, and a bit of Google is god fanboyism.


There are only really 2 contenders for operating systems in the consumer mobile phone market. iOS and Android. Fortunately, only Apple uses iOS, so if you own pretty much any other phone, it will be running Android.
Unfortunately, some people tend to compare a £100 phone running Android, to a £1000 phone running iOS. Excuse the pun, but you're not comparing Apples to apples.


pinkmonkey said:


> I love android as an os, but I wish the hardware was a bit better.


See above... 'Android' is an operating system, not hardware, but Google have now branched into the hardware side, with the Pixel, which is, in my opinion, much better than its iPhone 'equivalent'.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

elbows said:


> From a tech point of view, dropping 32 bit support at some point makes sense. It would have been much better if they had waited longer since the last time they sold brand new 32 bit devices before doing this though.



This is the thing. As soon as Apple got the opportunity to relieve their fans of more money, they grasped it with both claws, which seems to be their business model... Either buy our new shit or fuck you!

For a company with so much money, how hard/costly would it be for them to continue supporting hardware they sold to loyal customers just a few years ago? 
I can still run software/games that I ran on Windows 95 on Windows 10. It's just pure greed that's stopping them.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> There are only really 2 contenders for operating systems in the consumer mobile phone market. iOS and Android. Fortunately, only Apple uses iOS, so if you own pretty much any other phone, it will be running Android.
> Unfortunately, some people tend to compare a £100 phone running Android, to a £1000 phone running iOS. Excuse the pun, but you're not comparing Apples to apples.
> 
> See above... 'Android' is an operating system, not hardware, but Google have now branched into the hardware side, with the Pixel, which is, in my opinion, much better than its iPhone 'equivalent'.


I was referring to my crappy phone hardware, all the android phones I've had have been 'squidgy' rather than sturdy.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

pinkmonkey said:


> I was referring to my crappy phone hardware, all the android phones I've had have been 'squidgy' rather than sturdy.


How many Android phones have you owned that cost the same as an iPhone?
I currently own a Xiaomi Mi5s and a Vernee Apollo. Both have a unibody alloy structure, and both are flagships from their respective manufacturers.
The Vernee Apollo I bought purely for the screen resolution. It's a 2K display, which I'm using for 3D and FPV, and it's an amazing bit of kit for less than £200, and extremely robust. As for the Xiaomi Mi5s. It also has a unibody alloy frame, which is extremely tough, and, obviously, much more sturdy than any plastic body/back phone. In real world use, it's far better than the iPhone 7, yet it's 1/3 of the price. It's actually a better phone than the iPhone 7... for 1/3 of the price.

As I stated above. Compare apples to apples. If you want to compare Apple's phones to a phone running an Android OS, then compare like for like, or as close as you can.
And if you want to talk about hardware issues, and physical weaknesses in phones, take a look at the iPhone 6, which bent like a banana if you sat on it in your back pocket.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 7, 2017)

I always had high end phones in the past, I had a samsung galaxy note 2, that was the last high end phone I had before I lost interest and got a cheapo one on a payg sim. It was flimsy as hell and became unusuable. Although my moto g is cheap and the screen cracked at least it still works.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

lefteri said:


> What's really annoying about apple is that their hardware is really well made and long outlasts the software


No, it really doesn't.


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## bmd (Jun 7, 2017)

Apple isn't making enough money so they're attempting to mothball models that would otherwise handle the latest apps and games. 

Or not? Where's Kid_Eternity when you need him?!


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

bmd said:


> Apple isn't making enough money so they're attempting to mothball models that would otherwise handle the latest apps and games.
> 
> Or not? Where's Kid_Eternity when you need him?!


Why can't their OS handle both 32bit and 64 bit software?


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## Magnus McGinty (Jun 7, 2017)

pinkmonkey said:


> You can't beat the hardware, its tough. I mistakenly sat on my ipad mini for a whole day yesterday (it was under a cushion on a hard chair), I dropped it, the dog has sat on it, three years on, all still works. My mate is considering finally replacing her Mac laptop which is now 8.
> Ive a moto g android phone, cheap, yes. But the screen cracked after just one week, which is shit. Im never having another Samsung as it went to shit, too quickly.  I love android as an os, but I wish the hardware was a bit better.
> I always use pcs and I love win 10 but the build quality/battery life (its a yoga 2 pro) is not the same as apple although the screen is a higher resolution and it actually has an identical processor to the macbook air. Three years of use and the ssd is failing. I will buy another yoga again though, I use it as a monitor in tent mode.



I dropped my first iPad several times. The screen was wrecked but it still worked fine.


----------



## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> You seem to assume sales volume is related to quality.


I don't know how you managed to arrive at that conclusion. An overpriced poor quality device is unlikely to sell in the kinds of numbers that Apple has managed with the iPhone. Sales is not the only metric. Customers on the whole appear to be satisfied with the quality of the goods and the service. No amount of brainwashing and marketing is going to be enough to mask a properly shit product, so even if one were to argue that they are overpriced, their customers appear to be ok with it, enough to pay the Apple tax and enough to keep the iphone consistently at the top of the smartphone sales charts. Now it could be that there are a whole bunch of really stupid people who are easily conned out of their money, however I don't believe that to be the case.



> I'm definitely no fanboi, of any brand, nor do I have "Apple envy". I have owned an iPhone, on which the home button broke... twice!


Well you may not be a "fanboi" but there is a strong whiff of google fanboi-ism knocking about the urban 75 house. ( mentioning no names   ).



> I currently own Huawei, Samsung, Nokia, Xiaomi and Vernee phones, and all of them are, in my opinion, much better value for money than any iPhone.
> 
> I want only one thing from a phone. Good value for money. I have absolutely no problem with anyone purchasing any phone they desire, but Apple products don't, to me, represent good value for money.


Good for you, whatever tickles your doo daa. As I said earlier, there are enough people who are happy to pay the asking price to own an iphone and have voted with their dollars, pounds, shillings, pence, yuan, rupees and roubles, enough to make Apple billions on iphone sales alone. On the whole the Apple punters appear to be very satisfied according the various rating agencies like JD Power.



> The 'best' phone I currently own is a Xiaomi Mi5s. It has 4G of RAM, 128G storage, the same camera as the Google Pixel XL, and is, IMHO, a much better phone than an iPhone 7... at 1/3 of the price.


...and yet the iphone still outsells every other smartphone. All those dumbasses buying the wrong phone, what's up with that? As you said, sales aren't everything, but they are a reasonably good indicator of an items popularity, and the iphone has been consistently the most popular smartphone, in spite of it's highish price tag. They must be doing something right, either that or Apple doing a Bill Cosby and (allegedly) slipping something into peoples drinks before financially raping them. If they were doing that, just like Mr Cosby, it'll catch up with them eventually. Your mention of Xaomi reminded me of this bit of analysis from a tech vlogger that I like to watch.




> Are only (current) iPhone users allowed an opinion?


Nobody is stopping anybody else from having an opinion, it just seems a bit odd that the vociferous critics appear to be people who are not Apple customers or hate Apple with a passion for whatever reason. Meanwhile the people that actually matter to Apple, ie their customers, are still happy to buy iphones. The mad fools.

As Brian Ferry sang, nothing lasts forever, and Apples time as the smartphone leader will possibly end soon enough. I myself am not one of their customers, I don't particularly like using smartphones and am more of a laptop user myself and I'm not comfortable paying the £500+ prices for any of the flagship phones be they ios, android or wm.


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## lefteri (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> No, it really doesn't.



Well all mine has


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> Your mention of Xaomi reminded me of this bit of analysis from a tech vlogger that I like to watch.



That video pretty much sums up the market. It doesn't matter how good the phone is, it's the hype, and how many celebrities you can pay to endorse your product that matters... to iPhone users.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> There are only really 2 contenders for operating systems in the consumer mobile phone market. iOS and Android. Fortunately, only Apple uses iOS, so if you own pretty much any other phone, it will be running Android.
> Unfortunately, some people tend to compare a £100 phone running Android, to a £1000 phone running iOS. Excuse the pun, but you're not comparing Apples to apples.


I didn't quite understand what you were getting at there to be honest. Apple operates almost exclusively in the high end market, so I'm not sure where you saw the comparison between low end Android hardware and Apple hardware, I don't recall making it.

iOS is indeed exclusively Apple and there appears to be some advantage to having the os optimized and tightly coupled to the hardware which makes for a more consistent and smoother user experience. Android is a bit more like Windows in this regard in that it runs on lots of different hardware, which is good in terms of widespread adoption, however the disadvantage is that it can't really be as slick as Apples offerings. It's like off the peg vs bespoke tailoring. To some people this makes a lot of difference and it's these little details, fit and finish, that some people are prepared to pay a bit extra for.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

lefteri said:


> Well all mine has


What, the software disintegrated before the phone did?


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> How many Android phones have you owned that cost the same as an iPhone?
> I currently own a Xiaomi Mi5s and a Vernee Apollo. Both have a unibody alloy structure, and both are flagships from their respective manufacturers.
> The Vernee Apollo I bought purely for the screen resolution. It's a 2K display, which I'm using for 3D and FPV, and it's an amazing bit of kit for less than £200, and extremely robust. As for the Xiaomi Mi5s. It also has a unibody alloy frame, which is extremely tough, and, obviously, much more sturdy than any plastic body/back phone. In real world use, it's far better than the iPhone 7, yet it's 1/3 of the price. It's actually a better phone than the iPhone 7... for 1/3 of the price.
> 
> ...



This is intresting. I've got a Moto G 4 I'm pretty happy with apart from the camera and I use it a fair bit. Been looking, but can't justify a S8. Is the camera on Xiaomi that good?


----------



## Saul Goodman (Jun 7, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> a more consistent and smoother user experience.



Compared to what? Compared to a £100 phone with an Android OS or compared to a £300 phone with an Andriod OS?

The cheapest iPhone is probably as expensive as an Android phone that will run rings round the most expensive iPhone.


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## lefteri (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> What, the software disintegrated before the phone did?



no it just became unusable because the applications I needed to use wouldn't run on the highest OS installable on the hardware - this also happened to the macbook I own


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 7, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> That video pretty much sums up the market. It doesn't matter how good the phone is, it's the hype, and how many celebrities you can pay to endorse your product that matters... to iPhone users.


I agree, the marketing does play a big part, HOWEVER, you can only get so far marketing a crap product, eventually word will get out and people will buy something that they feel is better bang for the buck or they find more satisying There is probably very little difference between the hardware of any of the flagship phone makers, and at the top end they are all around the same price, Nexus/Pixel, S8, iphone7.


Saul Goodman said:


> Compared to what? Compared to a £100 phone with an Android OS or compared to a £300 phone with an Andriod OS?
> 
> The cheapest iPhone is probably as expensive as an Android phone that will run rings round the most expensive iPhone.


Any current ios phone compared with any current Android phone, even the high end flagships. It's not just about benchmarks, it's about overall user experience, and the users and reviewers tend to agree that the iOS user experience is "better" and for some worth the extra monies. Another kinda related example is the Mac trackpads compared to any Windows laptop trackpad, the user experience is much better. The fit and finish appears to be very good, so even if the underlying hardware is the same or better on cheaper laptops, some people are prepared to pay a bit more to get something that has good form and function. Again, I'm not in that market and don't want to be spending that kind of money, but I can understand why some people might.


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## pengaleng (Jun 7, 2017)

editor said:


> Yet here you are, still posting away about it.




I dunno what you gain by this one man crusade against apple, did you have a mac that blew up once in the 80's?

what other people spend there money on aint anyone elses concern but theirs is it.

i dunno how anyone can get so wound up about a poxy phone.


----------



## pengaleng (Jun 7, 2017)

pinkmonkey said:


> You can't beat the hardware, its tough. I mistakenly sat on my ipad mini for a whole day yesterday (it was under a cushion on a hard chair), I dropped it, the dog has sat on it, three years on, all still works. My mate is considering finally replacing her Mac laptop which is now 8.
> Ive a moto g android phone, cheap, yes. But the screen cracked after just one week, which is shit. Im never having another Samsung as it went to shit, too quickly.  I love android as an os, but I wish the hardware was a bit better.
> I always use pcs and I love win 10 but the build quality/battery life (its a yoga 2 pro) is not the same as apple although the screen is a higher resolution and it actually has an identical processor to the macbook air. Three years of use and the ssd is failing. I will buy another yoga again though, I use it as a monitor in tent mode.




i threw my phone out my first floor window swatching a fly and it flew out my case, just a minor scratch on the edge


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 8, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> This is intresting. I've got a Moto G 4 I'm pretty happy with apart from the camera and I use it a fair bit. Been looking, but can't justify a S8. Is the camera on Xiaomi that good?


The camera on the Mi5s is very good. It doesn't have optical image stabilisation, so if you have shaky hands, it may not be for you. Although it does have electronic image stabilisation, whatever that is.
I've only taken kitten pictures with mine, so I can't really offer up any good shots, as they never sit still!






The camera on the Vernee Apollo is also very good. It's 21 megapixel (if that makes any difference), and the phone is less than £200


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 8, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> i threw my phone out my first floor window swatching a fly and it flew out my case, just a minor scratch on the edge


A Sherman tank ran over my phone and the tank blew up


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## editor (Jun 8, 2017)

pengaleng said:


> I dunno what you gain by this one man crusade against apple, did you have a mac that blew up once in the 80's?
> 
> what other people spend there money on aint anyone elses concern but theirs is it.
> 
> i dunno how anyone can get so wound up about a poxy phone.


It's a discussion forum. Where people talk about things. Anything they like. Funnily enough, you seem to be getting more wound up than anyone else here.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 8, 2017)

Had an iphone...once.
I hated the whole apple account nonsense...from day one...not being able to buy it and use it without setting it up online and having to get that stupid apple account. Made the mistake of buying  some music through my apple account. Not much...but just a few pieces.
I got really sick of the phone....mainly the size of it.
Cleared it...did a factory reset and was about to give it to someone when I heard that your skype app or your social contact equivalent app could still be phoned even on the newly reset apple. A friend of mine sorted that out...
This was an iphone 4...so it's a while ago...but I doubt I would want to have another one. 
I've had samsung galaxy phones since.
Droppes one in the toilet last year and it's working still.  Great camera...great free apps.... I've not had any problem with an sg any number. 

Looked at the Samsung tablets ... was thinking of gettinv one for my birthday . But I have a little 7" screen android tablet...it works fine. Also the kindle fire is great...so I'm actually not in need of one. And the sg phone has the full Microsoft suite of word, excel, powerpoint etc so I use it instead of a laptop.....quite often...

Not sure it's all relevant but I think apple are quite a greedy lot...and this new development makes me think they clearly just want to make more sales.


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jun 8, 2017)

Tbf an Android device is at its best with a Google account.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 8, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Tbf an Android device is at its best with a Google account.



At least it's not compulsory...


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 8, 2017)

UnderAnOpenSky said:


> Tbf an Android device is at its best with a Google account.


This is true, It's pretty standard nowadays to be almost forced into setting up an account to properly use a mobile device that is connected to the internet.



bubblesmcgrath said:


> Had an iphone...once.
> I hated the whole apple account nonsense...from day one...not being able to buy it and use it without setting it up online and having to get that stupid apple account. Made the mistake of buying  some music through my apple account. Not much...but just a few pieces.


Keeping track of accounts and passwords can be a bit if a faff and is off putting to a lot of folks. On windows and android you can sort of get away with not having to have an account, but you can't install any store apps without an account. With Apple I think it's possible to use an ipad without needing a Apple Id as long as you are ok with the delivered apps and don't need to install anything else. With an iphone you have to have an appleid account.


bubblesmcgrath said:


> Not sure it's all relevant but I think apple are quite a greedy lot...and this new development makes me think they clearly just want to make more sales.


This might be true, companies are out to make profits, but that is not something particularly unique to Apple. They're all at it. It is how this capitalist system works, profits before ethics (if you can get away with it). All of the big boys have been guilty of some dodgy practices and skullduggery to try and stop competition and maximise their profits, avoid paying taxes, sweatshop labour etc etc. I don't believe any of them are without fault.

Seven Reasons Why Europe's Antitrust Cases Against Google Are A Big Deal

U.S. appeals court revives antitrust lawsuit against Apple

https://www.wired.com/2000/11/microsoft-7/

https://www.counterpunch.org/2017/02/15/amazon-has-some-serious-anti-trust-issues/

Terix to pay Oracle $58M in settlement over Solaris support

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/18/technology/facebook-european-union-fine-whatsapp.html?_r=0


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## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 8, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> This is true, It's pretty standard nowadays to be almost forced into setting up an account to properly use a mobile device that is connected to the internet.
> 
> Keeping track of accounts and passwords can be a bit if a faff and is off putting to a lot of folks. On windows and android you can sort of get away with not having to have an account, but you can't install any store apps without an account. With Apple I think it's possible to use an ipad without needing a Apple Id as long as you are ok with the delivered apps and don't need to install anything else. With an iphone you have to have an appleid account.
> 
> ...



When I said they're a greedy lot....I was speaking from personal experience particularly with regard to their chargers which change with new models and dont last as long as one would like. They wont sell a universal model because their apple version is special.
It bugged me also that apps were not free.
I use plenty apps on my sg phone and only opt for free ones. For  me personally I've been able to find a free version for android of any app I've wanted. And I can put all my books on my phone without faffing about. 

For me...my iphone experience was not great. The SG is a better fit for me and has worked out to be easier and less expensive in every way.


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 8, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> When I said they're a greedy lot....I was speaking from personal experience particularly with regard to their chargers which change with new models and dont last as long as one would like. They wont sell a universal model because their apple version is special.


The Apple chargers and lightning cables do seem to be overpriced imo, but having said that you can buy alternative cables like Belkin (quality may vary...and some don't work). There was a bit of a hoo haa when Apple replaced their old 30 pin wide "ipod" connector with the new fangled lightning one. USB-C was not available at the time and they chose not to go with micro-usb, and they have been criticised for that, and that criticism might have some merit. Although in my opinion lightning is a better connector than micro-usb. They may choose to go with usb-c for their iphones and ipads in future models as they have done in their laptops.



bubblesmcgrath said:


> It bugged me also that apps were not free.
> I use plenty apps on my sg phone and only opt for free ones. For  me personally I've been able to find a free version for android of any app I've wanted. And I can put all my books on my phone without faffing about.


Even though I don't own an iphone myself I have bought several for relatives and have ended up being "support". All of the apps that I installed on those phones were free, so I'm not sure what you mean by "apps are not free", because there are plenty of free apps. There are also lots of paid apps, but it's the same on Android.


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## bubblesmcgrath (Jun 8, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> The Apple chargers and lightning cables do seem to be overpriced imo, but having said that you can buy alternative cables like Belkin (quality may vary...and some don't work). There was a bit of a hoo haa when Apple replaced their old 30 pin wide "ipod" connector with the new fangled lightning one. USB-C was not available at the time and they chose not to go with micro-usb, and they have been criticised for that, and that criticism might have some merit. Although in my opinion lightning is a better connector than micro-usb. They may choose to go with usb-c for their iphones and ipads in future models as they have done in their laptops.
> 
> 
> Even though I don't own an iphone myself I have bought several for relatives and have ended up being "support". All of the apps that I installed on those phones were free, so I'm not sure what you mean by "apps are not free", because there are plenty of free apps. There are also lots of paid apps, but it's the same on Android.



It's 5 years since I had an iphone...and the hassle of getting out of apple has put me off...
Maybe there were free apps then? I just didnt find any I wanted.
I'm not 100% happy with Samsung but I do think I'll stick with android in all future phone purchases...


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 9, 2017)

bubblesmcgrath said:


> It's 5 years since I had an iphone...and the hassle of getting out of apple has put me off...


Perhaps it was harder to move across 5 years ago, but it's quite easy to move content from between mobile OS's nowadays, but it can also depend on the apps. Photos and contacts are the main things that people transfer, relatively straightforward. If you've got paid itunes music that can be uploaded to google play. It is not unusual for software that you've paid for on one platform to not be transferable to another (eg you can't play XBOX Fifa 2017 on PS4)



bubblesmcgrath said:


> Maybe there were free apps then? I just didnt find any I wanted.


As far as I know there have always been useful free apps on both iOS and Android, and mobile developers more often than not release iOS apps before Android for various reasons, and apparently better quality even though Android has over 80% of the mobile market share. I think one of the reasons is that even though everyone wants freebies/something for nothing, it actually costs money to develop and maintain software, and iOS users generate more revenue than Android users do so it's more worth their while because they don't get paid as much for their Android apps.





Source



bubblesmcgrath said:


> I'm not 100% happy with Samsung but I do think I'll stick with android in all future phone purchases...


I currently do not have my own phone and have borrowed my wife's OP3T. I've never been a big mobile phone user and I'm not overly keen on either Android or iOS tbh, I would prefer Microsoft to get it's act together and make Windows a viable alternative on mobile devices. Maybe that will happen when Corbyn becomes PM.


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## editor (Jun 9, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> Perhaps it was harder to move across 5 years ago, but it's quite easy to move content from between mobile OS's nowadays, but it can also depend on the apps. Photos and contacts are the main things that people transfer, relatively straightforward. If you've got paid itunes music that can be uploaded to google play. It is not unusual for software that you've paid for on one platform to not be transferable to another (eg you can't play XBOX Fifa 2017 on PS4)
> 
> As far as I know there have always been useful free apps on both iOS and Android, and mobile developers more often than not release iOS apps before Android for various reasons, and apparently better quality even though Android has over 80% of the mobile market share. I think one of the reasons is that even though everyone wants freebies/something for nothing, it actually costs money to develop and maintain software, and iOS users generate more revenue than Android users do so it's more worth their while because they don't get paid as much for their Android apps.
> 
> ...


That article is totally out of date: 
Android app revenue on track to beat iOS in 2017


And in the news now: 
Apple controversially taking 30% cut of donations sent via Chinese social network apps to content creators


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 9, 2017)

editor said:


> That article is totally out of date:
> Android app revenue on track to beat iOS in 2017


Er, it isn't actually. Of course Androids overall revenue should be higher than iOS with it having over 80% mobile market share, however iOS still gets more money per user and the developers get more for their apps and they still develop first and more often better quality stuff on iOS. If you read the article you linked to you would have seen :-



> Despite Android taking the larger share of overall app revenue via Google Play and third-party apps stores, the iOS App Store will continue to have the single-most lucrative app store. Total global consumer spend in apps reach more than $139 billion, and global app downloads are expected to exceed 128 billion, by 2021.




Source

Anyway, like I said, I'm waiting for that Windows mobile revival to shut up all the Android/iOS fanbois.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 9, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> Er, it isn't actually. Of course Androids overall revenue should be higher than iOS with it having over 80% mobile market share, however iOS still gets more money per user and the developers get more for their apps and they still develop first and more often better quality stuff on iOS. If you read the article you linked to you would have seen :-
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't believe a word of it. 
I do believe that Apple receive a greater revenue, but not the app maker.
On the initial app sale, obviously, but on subsequent micro transactions (which is where the money is), I fail to see how Apple can possibly win.


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## alex_ (Jun 10, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> I don't believe a word of it.
> I do believe that Apple receive a greater revenue, but not the app maker.
> On the initial app sale, obviously, but on subsequent micro transactions (which is where the money is), I fail to see how Apple can possibly win.



More details here 

iOS torches Android when it comes to developer profits

You dont believe that those crazy iOS users with money to burn on their phones don't spend more money on apps too ?

Alex


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## bi0boy (Jun 10, 2017)

Does it really matter which OS has more money spent on it?

You're not a better sort of anti-capitalist for choosing a product with a lower profit margin or something.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Does it really matter which OS has more money spent on it?
> 
> You're not a better sort of anti-capitalist for choosing a product with a lower profit margin or something.


I don't give much of a shit to be honest. There's zillions of apps out there and most app writers make fuck all or close to fuck all.
Even less when Apple is doing its thing: Apple controversially taking 30% cut of donations sent via Chinese social network apps to content creators


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## bi0boy (Jun 10, 2017)

editor said:


> Even less when Apple is doing its thing: Apple controversially taking 30% cut of donations sent via Chinese social network apps to content creators



Shop owner takes a less than 50% cut surprise! Very generous of Apple.


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## pinkmonkey (Jun 10, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> The Apple chargers and lightning cables do seem to be overpriced imo, but having said that you can buy alternative cables like Belkin (quality may vary...and some don't work). There was a bit of a hoo haa when Apple replaced their old 30 pin wide "ipod" connector with the new fangled lightning one. USB-C was not available at the time and they chose not to go with micro-usb, and they have been criticised for that, and that criticism might have some merit. Although in my opinion lightning is a better connector than micro-usb. They may choose to go with usb-c for their iphones and ipads in future models as they have done in their laptops.
> 
> 
> Even though I don't own an iphone myself I have bought several for relatives and have ended up being "support". All of the apps that I installed on those phones were free, so I'm not sure what you mean by "apps are not free", because there are plenty of free apps. There are also lots of paid apps, but it's the same on Android.


I just use lightening cables from the £1 shop for my ipad mini, they work. I'm not forking out for an Apple one, I hate itunes too, but theres absolutely no reason why you should need to actually use it, either.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Shop owner takes a less than 50% cut surprise! Very generous of Apple.


You're actually defending Apple taking a cut of _donations_?


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## bi0boy (Jun 10, 2017)

editor said:


> You're actually defending Apple taking a cut of _donations_?



They are commercial payments, the software developers aren't charities. Why would Apple host their products for free?


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## editor (Jun 10, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> They are commercial payments, the software developers aren't charities. Why would Apple host their products for free?


Apple are already taking their juicy cut from the app sales but now they're taking a fat cut of any _donations on top_ that users wish to give to the developers. It's like a rich restaurant boss grabbing tips meant for the waiters.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 18, 2017)

NoXion said:


> They all do the planned obsolescence thing, but as has been pointed out earlier on this thread, it's particularly bad with Apple because the turnover is quick and customers are effectively locked-in hardware wise. I suppose it's possible to run iOS on say, a Samsung phone but I've never heard of it happening, probably because it's a pain in the arse to do.



No it's not Apple's support turn over is actually not much different than Androids. Try getting the latest Android OS on a phone four years old.


.


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## Saul Goodman (Jun 18, 2017)

Kid_Eternity said:


> No it's not Apple's support turn over is actually not much different than Androids. Try getting the latest Android OS on a phone four years old.
> .


I think you're missing the point.



> That means anyone with an iPhone 5 or 5C will no longer receive software updates for either new features, or more importantly security fixes.



No security updates for a 2 year old phone. Security updates are still being released for Android 4.4, because Google acknowledge the fact that a lot of people are still using phones with the KitKat OS. I'm pretty sure Apple are also aware that the majority of iPhone users are still using phones that Apple have decided they will no longer be supporting.


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## alex_ (Jun 18, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> I think you're missing the point.
> 
> 
> 
> No security updates for a 2 year old phone. Security updates are still being released for Android 4.4, because Google acknowledge the fact that a lot of people are still using phones with the KitKat OS. I'm pretty sure Apple are also aware that the majority of iPhone users are still using phones that Apple have decided they will no longer be supporting.



86% of iOS users are on the latest version.

App Store - Support - Apple Developer

Alex


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## PaoloSanchez (Jun 18, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> No security updates for a 2 year old phone.


Once again, this is a bit of a hyped up exaggeration, and it is also not something that is unique to Apple.



Saul Goodman said:


> Security updates are still being released for Android 4.4, because Google acknowledge the fact that a lot of people are still using phones with the KitKat OS.


 
What is this bullsh*t, Google? Nexus phones starved of security fixes after just three years



Saul Goodman said:


> I'm pretty sure Apple are also aware that the majority of iPhone users are still using phones that Apple have decided they will no longer be supporting.


What??? You better check your figures. I'm pretty damn sure that the majority of iPhone users are NOT using phones that will be unsupported. 



iOS Version Stats - David Smith


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## Kid_Eternity (Jul 6, 2017)

There's an amazing lack of outrage about this in the world. Barely any coverage of the horrors to come. Funny that.[emoji848]


.


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## peterkro (Jul 6, 2017)

xenon said:


> I forgot, I've still got an Ipod 3g too. Jailbroken and still works fine, though slow. I forget which iOS it's on, should have stuck with the previous one. It's on 6 I think. The battery is predictably fucked of course but works fine as a little media player / ereader.



I've still got a fully functioning 3rd Gen Firewire 30Gb iPod.Not only a great music player but with an OS stuck on it will boot any Mac with a firewire connection.Fucking good diagnostic tool.Batteries by the way are about a tenner with tools and instructions to change.


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## editor (Jul 25, 2017)

And just to update this: Google and Samsung catching Apple on in-app revenue generation?


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## keybored (Jul 25, 2017)

Who would have thunk 30 years ago that in 2017 people would have heated arguments over telephones?


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## PaoloSanchez (Jul 25, 2017)

keybored said:


> Who would have thunk 30 years ago that in 2017 people would have heated arguments over telephones?


lol, 30 years ago it was vi vs emacs and vms vs unix and c64 vs Atari.
The more things change the more they stay the same. Fanbois are heavily emotionally invested in their choice of techmology.


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## bi0boy (Jul 25, 2017)

Turns out my iPad4 will be affected by this. Fucks given = zero. It's five years old and iOS 10 will see me through a good long while until I feel the need to upgrade.


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## ChrisFilter (Jul 26, 2017)

Popped back here as I'm working out my notice and am less than busy. It's heartening to see that editor is still banging the anti-Apple drum whilst enthusiastically championing Samsung devices


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## PaoloSanchez (Jul 26, 2017)

bi0boy said:


> Turns out my iPad4 will be affected by this. Fucks given = zero. It's five years old and iOS 10 will see me through a good long while until I feel the need to upgrade.


That is likely the position of a lot of users of older devices, be it ios, android or windows. A lot of people find the constant nagging for updates/upgrades to be a bit of a pain, and whilst it may be a necessary evil because of all those nasty malware creators sitting out there in the ether ready to pounce, it's still a bit of an irritant that many users would quite happily do without. This was more tech media hysteria (like the demise of mspaint) than something of genuine concern for most people imo. Nothing to see here.


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## elbows (Sep 19, 2017)

The 'old apps that havent been updated to 64 bit wont work on ios 11' aspect of this is becoming mainstream news in the final runup to ios 11 coming out:

Apple's iOS 11 upgrade kills off old apps


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 20, 2017)

I just put iOS11 on my iPhone 7 Plus and it seems slower now. Quelle surprise.


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## 8ball (Sep 20, 2017)

Is there any reason why they can't have a 'run in 32-bit mode' option for these older programs?


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## cybershot (Sep 20, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I just put iOS11 on my iPhone 7 Plus and it seems slower now. Quelle surprise.



There's nearly always a fair bit of stuff going on in the background after a major update. You'll know for sure if it gets a bit hot. Should sort itself out.

Personally I always wait for my phone to tell me it's available, let the early adopters find all the bugs first.


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## elbows (Sep 20, 2017)

8ball said:


> Is there any reason why they can't have a 'run in 32-bit mode' option for these older programs?



They did that for a couple of years but have now ditched it. This is not what the world is used to with other 32->64 bit transitions where 32 bit has been allowed to live on for very many years.

I dont actually care myself and am glad to see the back of that side of things, but I can fully understand why people will be unhappy with old apps not working anymore. It isnt very hard for devs to update their apps to 64 bit, but this is no help for the large number of apps (including older games) where the developers have moved on and will never update those apps again.


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## PaoloSanchez (Sep 20, 2017)

elbows said:


> They did that for a couple of years but have now ditched it. This is not what the world is used to with other 32->64 bit transitions where 32 bit has been allowed to live on for very many years.
> 
> I dont actually care myself and am glad to see the back of that side of things, but I can fully understand why people will be unhappy with old apps not working anymore. It isnt very hard for devs to update their apps to 64 bit, but this is no help for the large number of apps (including older games) where the developers have moved on and will never update those apps again.


I think it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't malarkies. Although I can understand the frustrations of those using older applications/software/hardware I think obsolete software/hardware is and unfortunate side effect of progress and that users either have to suck it up and stick with the older stuff until it no longer works or go through the pain of upgrading/finding alternatives. Creating and maintaining software isn't always a trivial exercise and keeping umpteen versions of a program working can be quite a drain on resources so I can understand why software builders might want to minimise their maintenance costs.


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## makerspender (Sep 22, 2017)

PaoloSanchez said:


> I think it's one of those damned if you do, damned if you don't malarkies. Although I can understand the frustrations of those using older applications/software/hardware I think obsolete software/hardware is and unfortunate side effect of progress and that users either have to suck it up and stick with the older stuff until it no longer works or go through the pain of upgrading/finding alternatives. Creating and maintaining software isn't always a trivial exercise and keeping umpteen versions of a program working can be quite a drain on resources so I can understand why software builders might want to minimise their maintenance costs.



Too right, unfortunately. It's a simple matter of cost versus reward, and the fact that developing for compatibility for old phones and OS's requires a management team that finds value in spending 50% of the developing time on reaching 5% of the users.


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## PaoloSanchez (Sep 22, 2017)

makerspender said:


> Too right, unfortunately. It's a simple matter of cost versus reward, and the fact that developing for compatibility for old phones and OS's requires a management team that finds value in spending 50% of the developing time on reaching 5% of the users.


I think this is likely to remain an issue as long as new faster/better hardware keeps appearing at it's current pace. The OS and software updates are more likely to settle down when the hardware does. Currently I think that a 2 to 5 year life expectancy for mobile phones is about right, although some might not be too happy with that if they're spending £800+ on a phone.


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## Saul Goodman (Sep 22, 2017)

8ball said:


> Is there any reason why they can't have a 'run in 32-bit mode' option for these older programs?


Yes. It doesn't sell new phones to people who don't need a new phone.


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## 8ball (Sep 25, 2017)

Saul Goodman said:


> Yes. It doesn't sell new phones to people who don't need a new phone.



I'd expect ditching legacy apps is just likely to nudge people to other mobile OS's.


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## PaoloSanchez (Sep 25, 2017)

I thought this article was quite interesting on the subject of planned obsolescence. 
----------------------
_Lightbulbs and various other technologies could easily last for decades, many believe, but it’s more profitable to introduce artificial lifespans so that companies get repeat sales. “That’s sort of the conspiracy theory of planned obsolescence,” says Mohanbir Sawhney, a professor of marketing at Northwestern University.

So is this conspiracy theory true? Does planned obsolescence really exist?

The answer: yes, but with caveats. Beyond the crude caricature of greedy companies wantonly fleecing their customers, the practice does have silver linings. To an extent, planned obsolescence is an inevitable consequence of sustainable businesses giving people goods they desire. In this way, planned obsolescence serves as a reflection of a ravenous, consumer culture which industries did create for their benefit, yet were hardly alone in doing so. 

“Fundamentally, firms are reacting to the tastes of the consumers,” says Judith Chevalier, a professor of finance and economics at Yale University. “I think there are some avenues where [businesses] are kind of tricking the consumer, *but I think there are also situations where I might put the fault on the consumer.*”_
.
.
.
_For a fully modern example, consider smartphones. These handsets often get discarded after a mere couple years’ use. Screens or buttons break, batteries die, or their operating systems, apps, and so on can suddenly no longer be upgraded. Yet a solution is always near at hand: brand new handset models, pumped out every year or so, and touted as “the best ever”._
------------------------


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## sim667 (Sep 25, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I just put iOS11 on my iPhone 7 Plus and it seems slower now. Quelle surprise.


Really? 

My iPhone 6 is running just fine.


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## Saratoga (Sep 27, 2017)

Where can I see on my iPhone if an app is 32 or 64 bit?


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## fishfinger (Sep 27, 2017)

Saratoga said:


> Where can I see on my iPhone if an app is 32 or 64 bit?


How to find the 32-bit apps on your iPhone or iPad that won't work in iOS 11 at all


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## Saul Goodman (Sep 27, 2017)

8ball said:


> I'd expect ditching legacy apps is just likely to nudge people to other mobile OS's.


A lot of people will be too heavily invested in Apple's walled garden at this stage and will have no choice but to 'upgrade'. Whilst others will just buy a new phone because Apple.


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## paolo (Sep 27, 2017)

skyscraper101 said:


> I just put iOS11 on my iPhone 7 Plus and it seems slower now. Quelle surprise.



Grande surprise. If anything, I’d say my SE is faster.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 27, 2017)

It's not going to make any difference at all. If you're relying on an app that's not been updated in over two years, and there's no replacement you can use, you're frankly a bit of a fool (or in the case of corporate apps, you're run by fools) and you're definitely in a big minority.

It will kill off a bunch of my old iPhone games and I'll be sorry to see the last of the original Drop7 but life moves on. I can't use Appleworks any more or play my GBA games on my Switch either.


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## 8ball (Sep 28, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It's not going to make any difference at all. If you're relying on an app that's not been updated in over two years, and there's no replacement you can use, you're frankly a bit of a fool (or in the case of corporate apps, you're run by fools) and you're definitely in a big minority.



Sometimes people just like the stuff they've got.  If you piss them off by making it stop working, you can hardly whinge when they go elsewhere.


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## FridgeMagnet (Sep 29, 2017)

8ball said:


> Sometimes people just like the stuff they've got.  If you piss them off by making it stop working, you can hardly whinge when they go elsewhere.


They literally cannot go elsewhere if they want to keep the stuff they've got. The only thing they can do is stick with iOS but not upgrade (which is always an option I guess).


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## 8ball (Oct 1, 2017)

FridgeMagnet said:


> They literally cannot go elsewhere if they want to keep the stuff they've go.



They can switch to an OS which is more likely to let them do so, once they've got used to it.

Though anecdotal evidence suggests to me that people who switch from iOS tend to go back after a bit.


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## FridgeMagnet (Oct 1, 2017)

8ball said:


> They can switch to an OS which is more likely to let them do so, once they've got used to it.
> 
> Though anecdotal evidence suggests to me that people who switch from iOS tend to go back after a bit.


They _could_ switch to Android, if they got the idea in the first place that it would prevent their applications from becoming obsolete (which I think would be a little far fetched). I suspect that the number of people who thought it through to that point of changing OS, out of the group who relied on iOS apps that hadn't been updated for two years and didn't use open data formats, would be pretty small and ignorable by Apple.


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## NoXion (Oct 1, 2017)

8ball said:


> They can switch to an OS which is more likely to let them do so, once they've got used to it.
> Though anecdotal evidence suggests to me that people who switch from iOS tend to go back after a bit.


 Stockholm syndrome.


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