# Independence is viable?



## Dai Sheep (Feb 13, 2006)

According to this study, Phil Williams maintains Welsh independence is economically viable - contrary to the line maintained by the main British political parties, and that the British government greatly overstates Welsh budget defecits.

A long read, but interesting.

http://www.ylolfa.com/deunydd/graffeg/cynulliad/cynulliad03.pdf

(you need adobe acrobat reader to view this)


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## Ben Bore (Feb 14, 2006)

Have only managed to get half way through it so far - I have a short attention span, although it's large typeface and short paprgraph makes it quite an easy read.

Page 8 & 9 basically sets out the arguments aginst current 'Brit nationalist propoganda' regarding who's subsidising who.

I regularly read the 'Campaign for and English Parliment (CEP)' Blog.  I must say it's very interesting and many valid points are raised, especially the way in which the idea of an English civic or national identity (never mind a political one) is dismissed by the ruling Labour Party, who are prefer to try and drum home the idea of Britishness.  I have great sympathy for CEP on this issue, but it does irk me a little when the keep going on about how they are subsidizing the Welsh and the Scots, always with some stats or others.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 14, 2006)

Ben Bore said:
			
		

> Have only managed to get half way through it so far - I have a short attention span, although it's large typeface and short paprgraph makes it quite an easy read.
> 
> Page 8 & 9 basically sets out the arguments aginst current 'Brit nationalist propoganda' regarding who's subsidising who.
> 
> I regularly read the 'Campaign for and English Parliment (CEP)' Blog.  I must say it's very interesting and many valid points are raised, especially the way in which the idea of an English civic or national identity (never mind a political one) is dismissed by the ruling Labour Party, who are prefer to try and drum home the idea of Britishness.  I have great sympathy for CEP on this issue, but it does irk me a little when the keep going on about how they are subsidizing the Welsh and the Scots, always with some stats or others.




Yeah, this recent Gordon Brown idea oh British Day etc, is really irritating and patronising. 

Ive seen a couple of articles and English nationalist message boards and your right they are always spouting off how England subsidises the Welsh and the scots. They raise valid points regarding English political representation and identitiy. Although I have say Most of the business at Westminster, concerns English issues/affairs, so I think they overstate their case a bit sometimes. The one message board i've seen is pretty right-wing as well.


With regard to independence, this is something Plaid should trying to promote positively , with real debate and stop ducking the issue - they are trying to be all things to all people. They should get the debate in the open - especially in the south or it will always be an alien concept to many. I like the attitude of politicians like Leanne Wood in regard to Wales's future.

More research like this is what they need, to stop all the Blairites and tories giving the usual 'Wales isnt strong enough' crap. e.g. the likes of Hain, Kinnock et al.

Anyway thats just my opinion


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## Karac (Feb 15, 2006)

Its totally viable,
Not spending billions on dodgy wars.


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## Hollis (Feb 15, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> Although I have say Most of the business at Westminster, concerns English issues/affairs, so I think they overstate their case a bit sometimes.



You'll have to remind me how many people live in Wales.

I suspect the Welsh get disproportionate attention.. you'll still whine on though..


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 15, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> I suspect the Welsh get disproportionate attention.. you'll still whine on though..




I suspect your wrong...but your right about one thing; I'll still 'whine on'   

But then, ideally I'd like to see our own sovereign parliament so then you can shove Westminster. Then we can both be happy


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## Swan (Feb 15, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> You'll have to remind me how many people live in Wales.
> 
> I suspect the Welsh get disproportionate attention.. you'll still whine on though..



 Yeah but I wonder who'd be doing the whining without Welsh water and Scottish oil. I think you'll find that you need us more than we need you, mate.


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## big footed fred (Feb 15, 2006)

Pointless waste of time as Europe will take us over anyway.

Makes me laugh how Labour go on about Wales and Scotland having independant governments when they are trying to force us into a Euro super state.

At least the welsh nationalists are following what they consider true unlike the labour government .

I wonder how much the people of wales care. 



> Wales - 1997
> The question asked in the 1997 Wales referendum was:
> 
> '1. I agree that there should be a Welsh Assembly; or
> ...



So the thing was created on a yes vote of about 25% of those able to vote.
The rest said 'no' or didn't give a toss about it.

That's about 75%. Not a massive argument for escape from English rule.
Or have things changed ?


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 15, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> So the thing was created on a yes vote of about 25% of those able to vote.
> The rest said 'no' or didn't give a toss about it.
> 
> That's about 75%. Not a massive argument for escape from English rule.
> Or have things changed ?



Or the 50% who didn't vote thought the assembly didn't go far enough, or thought the result was a forgone conclusion, or they were hiding from the rent man or whatever. Who knows. Why do you care one way or the other?


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## big footed fred (Feb 15, 2006)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Or the 50% who didn't vote thought the assembly didn't go far enough, or thought the result was a forgone conclusion, or they were hiding from the rent man or whatever. Who knows. Why do you care one way or the other?



Don't care much but seemed like a good idea to mention that only about 25% said yes and that is not much of an argument for an indi wales.
Easy to claim popular support but where is it ?

If I want a tory government I vote for it


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

I don't know whether it's viable or not, but I doubt whether there's public support for it. It's a shame because an independent Wales would be a naturally more left-wing state than that strange land called "and Wales" governed from London that we live in at the mo'.


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## big footed fred (Feb 15, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> I don't know whether it's viable or not, but I doubt whether there's public support for it. It's a shame because an independent Wales would be a naturally more left-wing state than that strange land called "and Wales" governed from London that we live in at the mo'.



Another reason I would be tempted to support you. Puts the commons on a better track if all the welsh and scots are out. More chance of a better tory government if you dump a load of lefties.


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> Another reason I would be tempted to support you. Puts the commons on a better track if all the welsh and scots are out. More chance of a better tory government if you dump a load of lefties.



Why do you think Labour are so keen to promote a British identity? They just can't afford to lose valuable Welsh and Scottish voters. 

And from my point of view Fred, in an independent Wales we'd never have to endure the horrors of another Tory government EVER again.


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## big footed fred (Feb 15, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Why do you think Labour are so keen to promote a British identity? They just can't afford to lose valuable Welsh and Scottish voters.
> 
> And from my point of view Fred, in an independent Wales we'd never have to endure the horrors of another Tory government EVER again.



Can't argue with that.
Just think of the massive taxes while we have income tax at 10% and zero unemployment. You can have ID cards and invade Iraq while we just work on getting business working well.
No sneaking back as asylum seekers


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> You can have ID cards and invade Iraq while we just work on getting business working well.



Eh? No Welsh troops in Iraq mate - we'd need them to invade Chester, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Bristol to liberate our downtrodden countrymen and reclaim our ancient lands.


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## big footed fred (Feb 15, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Eh? No Welsh troops in Iraq mate - we'd need them to invade Chester, Shrewsbury, Hereford and Bristol to liberate our downtrodden countrymen and reclaim our ancient lands.




Are you sure ?
http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/newsItem_id=3125.htm

The rest is England mate. No good wanting freedom freedom from England and then wanting to keep some bits.
Saying that you can have Bristol, it's a shit tip.   

<waits for backlash from Bristol people>


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## Brockway (Feb 15, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> Are you sure ?
> http://www.operations.mod.uk/telic/newsItem_id=3125.htm
> 
> The rest is England mate. No good wanting freedom freedom from England and then wanting to keep some bits.
> ...


 
Oh I know there's Welsh troops in Iraq. But in an independent Wales there wouldn't be is what I'm saying. I bet those troops must have been de-fecking-lighted when Rhodri turned up handing out leeks ffs! They could have at least sent over Charlotte Church.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 16, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> Pointless waste of time as Europe will take us over anyway.
> 
> Makes me laugh how Labour go on about Wales and Scotland having independant governments when they are trying to force us into a Euro super state.
> 
> ...



There are various reasons  for these figures for example, the devolutuion 'deal' for wales was Crap, bullshitting/scaremongering by the oppostion etc etc, and incidentally 25% of the Welsh population are from outside Wales.


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## Hollis (Feb 16, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> ..and incidentally 25% of the Welsh population are from outside Wales.



..and?


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## Redstar (Feb 16, 2006)

Hollis said:
			
		

> ..and?



 And they're English. So they're obviously huge fans of welsh independence...


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## Hollis (Feb 16, 2006)

Redstar said:
			
		

> And they're English. So they're obviously huge fans of welsh independence...



..and?


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## big footed fred (Feb 16, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> There are various reasons  for these figures for example, the devolutuion 'deal' for wales was Crap, bullshitting/scaremongering by the oppostion etc etc, and incidentally 25% of the Welsh population are from outside Wales.




I love it. Election results are free and fair when you win but bullshitted into when the result is shite.
Spoken like a true bullshitter.   

Brockway,
If you know of a way to send Charlotte Church to Iraq please do. The buggers would soon pack it in after listening to crazy chick a few times.


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## lewislewis (Feb 16, 2006)

Wales can't afford not to be independent in some way or another.

The problem with the independence argument is that the argument for is very intellectual, and not easily put to the electorate. The argument against has always consisted of scaremongering and bullshitting, which is very easily put to the electorate by a compliant media.

Look how poor Ireland was when it became independent.
Look at Ireland now.

The Assembly has grown in 'popularity' since its inception, but the fact remains it is a glorified talking shop, doing very little, not standing up for Wales, not even using the meager tools it has been given. How can we improve Wales when we don't have the powers to do so?

England usually votes for the Tories, Wales never votes for the Tories. It is unfair that Welsh votes foist an unwanted Labour government on England, and equally unfair that in the past English votes put Thatcher in charge of Wales.


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## ZIZI (Feb 16, 2006)

I do not think it would be a good thing for Wales to be independent, But, I would like to see Wales have its own law making powers.

Are these one of the same thing? I am not qualified to say whether it is or not.

In a way I think most people would like to see Wales not dictated to by Westminster. Scotland have it, I know we always compare Scotland, but what is the point of having a WAG and the NAW if everytime we want to make something law we have to go running back to England to ask permission?

All we need to do is get rid of the muppets of the WAG, have a coalition Government at the Assembly which can make decisions in the best interests of Wales and not according to party politics. Surely its got to be better than what we have now-i.e. Rhodri 'speak no truth' Morgan.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> I love it. Election results are free and fair when you win but bullshitted into when the result is shite.
> Spoken like a true bullshitter.


As long as they don't start counting abstentions as yes votes like the tories did with some council house stock transfer votes then i will be happy.
There is nothing wrong with trying to understand the reasons behind turnouts etc. All people did was speculate as to the reason for the low turn out unlike yourself who despite not living in wales seem to know exactly why. Mindreader are you?


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## lewislewis (Feb 16, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> I do not think it would be a good thing for Wales to be independent, But, I would like to see Wales have its own law making powers.
> 
> Are these one of the same thing? I am not qualified to say whether it is or not.



I agree with every point you said.

I don't think independence should be discussed until Wales has its own law making powers. It's quite frankly a waste of time talking about it now.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> There are various reasons  for these figures for example, the devolutuion 'deal' for wales was Crap, bullshitting/scaremongering by the oppostion etc etc, and incidentally 25% of the Welsh population are from outside Wales.


I think this last fact is relevant. If i recall correctly one of the lowest turnouts was in Cardiff with the largest english population. But i don't think this necessarily implies hostility to welsh aspirations. I think a lot of people would have thought themselves unqualified to influence the decision. I didn't vote and one of the reasons was that i didn't expect to stay in wales for a great deal if time and i thought it unfair to help make the decison and then bugger off (which i did then came back again).
The fact as those of us who actually live in wales a great deal of people did feel that not to have parity with Scotland made the assembly an expensive waste of time even if they did not support independence. Law making powers seemed in some peoples minds to make the difference between a talking shop and a real parliament (or senedd). It might seem logical to have supported the assembly as a step towards a real parliament and no doubt many people voted on that basis but i have no doubt that many people abstained on that point as well. 
It would appear equally obvious to me that if the abstainers were that hostile to welsh self government in any form then they would have voted no. Surely ambiguity, indifference as well as dissatisfaction with the 'offer' form the answer to the question of the low turn out.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> I do not think it would be a good thing for Wales to be independent, But, I would like to see Wales have its own law making powers.
> 
> Are these one of the same thing? I am not qualified to say whether it is or not.


I think the problem with this is that independence rarely comes out of the blue but is a result of a process. The establishment of the welsh office in the 1950's started the real process of devolution and asked the question of why the political administration of the devolved powers was placed in westminster hence the creation of the assembly.
I think the establishment of law making powers would always pose the question of what would the scope of these powers be? If Wales can legislate for transport why not the police for example? Inevitably i think you would get a creeping de facto independence.


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## socialistcelt (Feb 16, 2006)

I do not think Independence would be Viable at this stage of the game.

I mean for god sake they can't even agree on a name for the 'new building'.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 16, 2006)

I dont think it would be politically viable YET either. But the document at the start of this thread says it is economically viable. But I am of the opinion independence would be a very positive step for Wales in the future - but not the very distant future I hope.

As for the new building, I dont think the name should be senedd because it is not yet a parliament (Senedd - noun, fem.= Parliament). so lets not try and pretend it is. 

Am I alone in this? what does everyone else think?


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## Portia (Feb 16, 2006)

I think independence is a nice idea. how much difference would it really make? since we'd still be in the EU presumably. if we were independant would we get more money from brussels? does anyone think we'd join the euro?


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## ZIZI (Feb 16, 2006)

Did anyone think we would win a Grand Slam last year?  

It is possible. But like I said, until we are able to make our own law making decisions I think it would be ffolish to want Independence at this early stage. We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests. Making decisons and policies that are reletive to Wales and not the rest of Britain and Europe.

We have tripe at the moment and hopefully sooner rather than later the opposition parties will get their act together, stick with their courage of their convictions and form a coalition Government.

Wales are capable of running their own affairs, if only people had the belief to do so. I for one do not want my children growing up under the English rule. But, the timing has also got to be right.


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## diond (Feb 16, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> Did anyone think we would win a Grand Slam last year?
> 
> It is possible. But like I said, until we are able to make our own law making decisions I think it would be ffolish to want Independence at this early stage. We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests. Making decisons and policies that are reletive to Wales and not the rest of Britain and Europe.
> 
> ...




English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy, whose 'workplace' just _happens_ to reside in England. (Although saying London is in England is open to interpretation by many as well.) A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too. They (the Government) certainly do not represent me as an English person, and I daresay many other English people would agree also. English rule, it certainly isn't.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 16, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too.


I say what a delightful chap you are. Thankyou for your delightful and insightful contribution to the Welsh Forum. Please feel free to go into greater detail. We are, as they say, agog.


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## ZIZI (Feb 17, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy, whose 'workplace' just _happens_ to reside in England. (Although saying London is in England is open to interpretation by many as well.) A good proportion of the remainder of the Government is run by runts and outcasts born from outside of England too. They (the Government) certainly do not represent me as an English person, and I daresay many other English people would agree also. English rule, it certainly isn't.




If its not English rule, then pray do tell.


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## big footed fred (Feb 17, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> We need a good strong and intelligent Government in place that concerns itself with Welsh principles and interests.



You have got fuck all chance mate. Show me a politician that gives a flying shit about anything except power and money and/or has a clue how to run a piss up in a brewery.

Dream on sunshine


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## diond (Feb 17, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> If its not English rule, then pray do tell.



I just have, or do I need to cut and paste my original post?


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## diond (Feb 17, 2006)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> I say what a delightful chap you are. Thankyou for your delightful and insightful contribution to the Welsh Forum. Please feel free to go into greater detail. We are, as they say, agog.



So what more do you need to know in me saying that a significant amount of the Government are runts and outcasts, young man?  I thought it was quite self evident. Unless you are in favour of this Government? If that's the case, then why so?


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## Karac (Feb 17, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> English rule?? What the fuck are you on about?? The last time I looked, this pathetic attempt at a Government was run by two Jocks and a Taffy


Whos the Taffy?


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## diond (Feb 17, 2006)

Karac said:
			
		

> Whos the Taffy?


Prescott, of course. Google can be your friend if you're really unsure.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 17, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> So what more do you need to know in me saying that a significant amount of the Government are runts and outcasts, young man?  I thought it was quite self evident. Unless you are in favour of this Government? If that's the case, then why so?


Absolutely. Please tell me more.


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## diond (Feb 17, 2006)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> Absolutely. Please tell me more.



Are you sure you're not an aspiring politician? Please answer the questions in relation to the nature that they were asked.


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## ZIZI (Feb 18, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> I just have, or do I need to cut and paste my original post?


If you feel the need to cut and paste then feel free. It still won't answer my question.

Wales want's a Government that runs Welsh Business and affairs, that has its own law making powers and so has the best interests of Wales in mind and not what is dictated by Westminster. 

At the moment we still  go running back to Westmister cap in hand and get permission to pass our own policies and law.

It isn't relevant if the British/English Government is run by  2 Jocks and a Taff or if it is run by 3 Ignoranuses. The fact is ,it is the British Government which is run in England which has its English interests first and foremost and for some reason doesn't want to let go of Wales. Why?

If you object to the Government in your country, and I take it you are English and that you can trace your family back and say you are 100% English and not a Runt or an Outcast or even a Halfbreed then move into a country which would like to move away from English Rule, eg Wales, Scotland and Ireland. I am sure we will find a place for you to fit in.


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## ZIZI (Feb 18, 2006)

big footed fred said:
			
		

> You have got fuck all chance mate. Show me a politician that gives a flying shit about anything except power and money and/or has a clue how to run a piss up in a brewery.
> 
> Dream on sunshine




Have you ever seen a pig that flies?


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 18, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> Are you sure you're not an aspiring politician? Please answer the questions in relation to the nature that they were asked.


Thankyou so much for your interest. I'm very sorry to hear about your confusion. I hope it clears up soon.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 18, 2006)

ZIZI said:
			
		

> If its not English rule, then pray do tell.



Last time I looked both Wales and England were ruled by a democratically elected government. The real question is in whose interests does that government rule? Certainly not in the interests of the working classes in England.


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## lewislewis (Feb 20, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Last time I looked both Wales and England were ruled by a democratically elected government. The real question is in whose interests does that government rule? Certainly not in the interests of the working classes in England.



It rules primarily in the interests of wealthy south-east England.


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## lewislewis (Feb 20, 2006)

diond said:
			
		

> Prescott, of course. Google can be your friend if you're really unsure.



LOL, how in office has Prescott exhibited any 'Welsh' behaviour? How has the 'two Jocks and a Taffy' government ruled to benefit Wales? You won't answer, because you're thick.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 20, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> It rules primarily in the interests of wealthy south-east England.



Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains millions of workers? Is it the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains the largest proportion of the 3 million foreign born workers who are often exploited by gangmasters? Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" where millions more are just about getting by? How is the govenrnment ruling in their interest exactly?


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 20, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains millions of workers? Is it the same "wealthy south-east of England" which contains the largest proportion of the 3 million foreign born workers who are often exploited by gangmasters? Is this the same "wealthy south-east of England" where millions more are just about getting by? How is the govenrnment ruling in their interest exactly?



no-one denies there are millions of workers in south-east England, but surely that is where the wealth and economic influence of the UK is concentrated - around the hinterland of London. 

I assume you're looking at this from a Marxist point of view, but this is not a view many people will adhere to. This thread is about giving priority to Wales not England, regarding government. The workers of south-east England are not our concern really.


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## Redstar (Feb 21, 2006)

jannerboyuk said:
			
		

> I think the problem with this is that independence rarely comes out of the blue but is a result of a process. The establishment of the welsh office in the 1950's started the real process of devolution and asked the question of why the political administration of the devolved powers was placed in westminster hence the creation of the assembly.
> I think the establishment of law making powers would always pose the question of what would the scope of these powers be? If Wales can legislate for transport why not the police for example? Inevitably i think you would get a creeping de facto independence.



 I think this is more to the point. Surely the point of a democracy is the power to LEGISLATE. We are told by the powers-that-be that we now have a nascent welsh democracy. Really? How can it be a democracy when it has no power to make real changes which effect the day-to-day lives of ordinary people, and how can we do this without law-making powers?

 As to the point about the police - isn't it obvious we need control over our own police forces when the English home secretary can steam roller through a merger of all the welsh forces and totally fly in the face of Welsh public opinion? 

 The logic of devolution will pull apart the UK. The sooner the better.


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## Dhimmi (Feb 21, 2006)

Independence is always viable. Even if it meant a lower standard of living it's preferable isn't it? 
You do need a voice in it though, and you'll rarely find that in Westminster. I'm English and keen on county independence, mainly to address the negative influence of London.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 21, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> no-one denies there are millions of workers in south-east England, but surely that is where the wealth and economic influence of the UK is concentrated - around the hinterland of London.
> 
> I assume you're looking at this from a Marxist point of view, but this is not a view many people will adhere to. This thread is about giving priority to Wales not England, regarding government. The workers of south-east England are not our concern really.



To be accurate this thread concerns whether or not independence is viable. Which question is not limited to questions of governance alone but economics too. It seems germane in this context to point out that the "wealthy south-east of England" does not benefit from Wales continuing as a part of the British state. The ruling class, that is the bourgeoisie, does.

In any case the workers of the south-east of England are "our concern" as to a considerable degree they are the consumers of products and services based in Wales. It is simply impossible to entangle the economies of Wales and England. Whether or not Wales chooses independence as an option the economies of the two countries will remain closely linked. 

In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?


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## neprimerimye (Feb 21, 2006)

Dhimmi said:
			
		

> Independence is always viable. Even if it meant a lower standard of living it's preferable isn't it?
> You do need a voice in it though, and you'll rarely find that in Westminster. I'm English and keen on county independence, mainly to address the negative influence of London.



Independence is politically viable but only if economic links are maintained. For the very good reason that otherwise living standards would not be lowered but would plmmet catastrophically. Only the most narrow of nationalists would welcome independence under such circumstances the mass of the population would not.


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## phildwyer (Feb 21, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?



Hang on a second, just because 20% of the population of Wales are English, it does not follow that 20% of Welsh-born people must be living elsewhere.  Wales has never been much of a nation of emigrants, because we had the Industrial Revolution.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 21, 2006)

phildwyer said:
			
		

> Hang on a second, just because 20% of the population of Wales are English, it does not follow that 20% of Welsh-born people must be living elsewhere.  Wales has never been much of a nation of emigrants, because we had the Industrial Revolution.



Phil birth rates in Wales and England are pretty much the same. Which would suggest that the over all population of Wales Should have experienced a large increase given the influx of the 20% of the population born in England.

Yet in reality Wales has not experienced a growth in population over and above that of England. It follows then that there must also be outward migration within Britain from Wales.

Indeed this is true of other 'regions' of Britain too is it not? Much of the north of England is in serious decline ouside the major cities with large sdale movements of population southward. This might be even more marked if age were factored in.

Moreover Wales has expwerienced serious outward migration since the industrial revolution. For example there were major movements of Welsh workers to the Midlands in the 1930 and 40s to take up employment in the car industry. There were also smaller movements of miners to the Kent coalfields as I recall from talking to lads there during the strike.

When you back here btw?


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## lewislewis (Feb 21, 2006)

I think independence will be the logical end result of devolution.

Long way off yet. Let's get a Parliament for Wales, initiate a programme of nation building, then take a look at how the UK works and whether we need to leave it.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 21, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> To be accurate this thread concerns whether or not independence is viable. Which question is not limited to questions of governance alone but economics too. It seems germane in this context to point out that the "wealthy south-east of England" does not benefit from Wales continuing as a part of the British state. The ruling class, that is the bourgeoisie, does.
> 
> In any case the workers of the south-east of England are "our concern" as to a considerable degree they are the consumers of products and services based in Wales. It is simply impossible to entangle the economies of Wales and England. Whether or not Wales chooses independence as an option the economies of the two countries will remain closely linked.
> 
> In another sense too the workers of south-east England are "our concern" as a rather large number of them happen to be Welsh. We know that birth rates are pretty much the same in both countries and that some 20-25% of the population here were born elsewhere. Given that the number of immigrants to Wales from outside britain is small most people born outside Wales then must come from England. In which case a similar number of Welsh born people must be living elsewhere most likely in the south-east of England. Are some hundreds of thouands of Welsh people then "not our concern"?



I meant the workers of soth east England are not our concern from a governmental/administrative point of view.

You're right in saying that alot of Welsh born people live in south-east England. But also in the south west amongst other areas. But if they are resident there, then No they are not our concern.

And incidentally about these "workers" 

"The Labour Force Survey found that among working age people born in Wales, those living outside the country were more highly qualified and more likely to belong to the higher social classes than those still living in Wales"

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=450

I mean considering the high cost of property/living in the south east, then most people who went there would surely have to have a well paid job?


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## neprimerimye (Feb 21, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> I meant the workers of soth east England are not our concern from a governmental/administrative point of view.
> 
> You're right in saying that alot of Welsh born people live in south-east England. But also in the south west amongst other areas. But if they are resident there, then No they are not our concern.
> 
> ...



That those Welsh workers living in England are more highly qualified, on average, than those remaining in Wales is probably true. But the conclusion that they are therefore not workers is wrong in that the Labour Force Survey, in common with other bourgeois sources, categorises many workers as managers or professionals. In fact many such groups are highly proletarianised and have none of the traditional autonomy of the liberal professions.

It may be true that from the purely governmental point of view those of our fellow nationals living in England are not our concern but that merely shows the limits of a narrow parochial nationalism. In the real world the fate of one's brother, sister, father or mother who happens to live in England is surely of real concern regardless of the idiotic borders drawn up by national chauvinists.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 21, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I think independence will be the logical end result of devolution.
> 
> Long way off yet. Let's get a Parliament for Wales, initiate a programme of nation building, then take a look at how the UK works and whether we need to leave it.



What does "nation building" mean?

I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.


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## Brockway (Feb 21, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What does "nation building" mean?
> 
> I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.



Just out of interest Nep, generally what _is_ your definition of a "worker" in this day and age? Would a call-centre person qualify for example? Or a farmer?


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## lewislewis (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> What does "nation building" mean?
> 
> I for one do not wish to be included into any imaginary community.



Nation building, to literally build the Welsh nation, give the people that inhabit it a firm national consciousness and identity, create new institutions for Wales and raise Wales' profile.

Nep, if you venture out into our communities you'll find that Wales is not an 'imaginary community' as the majority of people identify with it.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 22, 2006)

Brockway said:
			
		

> Just out of interest Nep, generally what _is_ your definition of a "worker" in this day and age? Would a call-centre person qualify for example? Or a farmer?



For what it may be worth I have no abstract definition of who is or is not a worker in the way you pose the question. My understanding of social class is that of Marx.

In which case it is obvious that those who work in call centres are workers and farmers are not. Farmers owning their means of production and often being employers of labour are capitalists not workers. Call centre workers being paid wages and having no control over their means of production, workers of course produce values not things, are thus proletarians every bit as much as any miner was.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 22, 2006)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Nation building, to literally build the Welsh nation, give the people that inhabit it a firm national consciousness and identity, create new institutions for Wales and raise Wales' profile.
> 
> Nep, if you venture out into our communities you'll find that Wales is not an 'imaginary community' as the majority of people identify with it.



So you want to win control of the Assembly and then convince us that we are Welsh? That is you want to use a public body and public monies to convince us that your political ideals are correct.

I live in "our communities" and have done all my live you twerp. Not that I've ever managed to locate any "communties" only dormitaries in which labour is conveniantly warehoused for the conveniance of the boss class.

One final point I find it amusing that you have to write that the majority of people "identify" with Wales as proof that Wales as a nation is not an imagined community. Are you unaware that this perceived identification is a form of consciousness? Thus by definition of the imagination. And in this particular case a false consciousness.


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## Redstar (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> For what it may be worth I have no abstract definition of who is or is not a worker in the way you pose the question. My understanding of social class is that of Marx.
> 
> In which case it is obvious that those who work in call centres are workers and farmers are not. Farmers owning their means of production and often being employers of labour are capitalists not workers. Call centre workers being paid wages and having no control over their means of production, workers of course produce values not things, are thus proletarians every bit as much as any miner was.



 Is this the same Marx who said "I am not a Marxist."? If Marx's ideas didnt work very well for 20th century Russia, they're certainly not going to work very well for 21st centruy Cymru.


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## Redstar (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> So you want to win control of the Assembly and then convince us that we are Welsh? That is you want to use a public body and public monies to convince us that your political ideals are correct.
> 
> I live in "our communities" and have done all my live you twerp. Not that I've ever managed to locate any "communties" only dormitaries in which labour is conveniantly warehoused for the conveniance of the boss class.
> 
> One final point I find it amusing that you have to write that the majority of people "identify" with Wales as proof that Wales as a nation is not an imagined community. Are you unaware that this perceived identification is a form of consciousness? Thus by definition of the imagination. And in this particular case a false consciousness.



 What planet are you on? The majority of people in the defined borders of this country identify themselves as WELSH and have for well over 1000 years (the difference being that we now identify ourselves largely in a language that has been imposed on us by a foreign power - England - the original term being Cymry or "fellow countrymen") whatever you are talking about is irrelevant to the way the majority of people in this country see themselves. 

 If national identity is a form of "false consciousness" then all I can say it's spreading across the globe faster than Asian Bird Flu. Since the end of the 2nd world war the number of nations in existence has grown vastly, and the trend continues year on year. People value their collective identity and will fight for it if necessary, and I think you'll find that national identities will far outlive the deluded rhetoric of terms like the "international proletariat".


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## neprimerimye (Feb 22, 2006)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Is this the same Marx who said "I am not a Marxist."? If Marx's ideas didnt work very well for 20th century Russia, they're certainly not going to work very well for 21st centruy Cymru.



The ideas of Marx explain very well indeed what happened in Russia and why. Marxists understanding that we live in a global economy argued against the idiotic theory of 'Socialism in One Country' put forward by counter-revolutionaries. By the same token Marxists today understand that there can be no socialism in Wales alone. For that matter capitalism in a Wales isolated from the world economy is an absurdity.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 22, 2006)

Redstar said:
			
		

> What planet are you on? The majority of people in the defined borders of this country identify themselves as WELSH and have for well over 1000 years (the difference being that we now identify ourselves largely in a language that has been imposed on us by a foreign power - England - the original term being Cymry or "fellow countrymen") whatever you are talking about is irrelevant to the way the majority of people in this country see themselves.
> 
> If national identity is a form of "false consciousness" then all I can say it's spreading across the globe faster than Asian Bird Flu. Since the end of the 2nd world war the number of nations in existence has grown vastly, and the trend continues year on year. People value their collective identity and will fight for it if necessary, and I think you'll find that national identities will far outlive the deluded rhetoric of terms like the "international proletariat".



Your hysterical rhetoric is unconvincing. There is no evidence that a majority of the people of Wales have understood themselves to be 'Welsh' for over a thousand years as you assert. At best the ruling elite may have had a consciouness of being a single people that long but this must be differentiated from the modern concept of nationalism which is unique to the capitalist mode of production.

Nationalism is a form of false consciousness and I note that you do not even attempt to construct an argument to the contrary. People do indeed value collective identities but this is why nationalism is but a form of imagined community as there can be no genuine shared interest between workers and bosses. As one or other class must dominate, history knows no exceptions, each nation at best a site for class conflict.

You are however correct that it is possible that nations will outlive the potential of the international proletariat creating a communist society as Rosa Luxemburg put it the choice facing humanity is socialism or barbarism. Nationalism cannot but lead to the latter.


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## phildwyer (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> When you back here btw?



I'm here now, in fact I do believe I just saw your brother in the library.  Meeting up with 1927 tonight, check yer PM's for details.


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## Redstar (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> Your hysterical rhetoric is unconvincing. There is no evidence that a majority of the people of Wales have understood themselves to be 'Welsh' for over a thousand years as you assert. At best the ruling elite may have had a consciouness of being a single people that long but this must be differentiated from the modern concept of nationalism which is unique to the capitalist mode of production.
> 
> Nationalism is a form of false consciousness and I note that you do not even attempt to construct an argument to the contrary. People do indeed value collective identities but this is why nationalism is but a form of imagined community as there can be no genuine shared interest between workers and bosses. As one or other class must dominate, history knows no exceptions, each nation at best a site for class conflict.
> 
> You are however correct that it is possible that nations will outlive the potential of the international proletariat creating a communist society as Rosa Luxemburg put it the choice facing humanity is socialism or barbarism. Nationalism cannot but lead to the latter.



 Well in one respect you are quite right nep. The majority of people in this country have understood themselves to be "Cymry" not "Welsh" which as I'm sure you are aware is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "Foreigner". 

 As to Socialism being less barbarous than Nationalism - remind me again how many of the people's of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus Lenin, Stalin and co. murdered and slaughtered in the name of the workers revolution...


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## neprimerimye (Feb 22, 2006)

Redstar said:
			
		

> Well in one respect you are quite right nep. The majority of people in this country have understood themselves to be "Cymry" not "Welsh" which as I'm sure you are aware is an Anglo-Saxon word meaning "Foreigner".
> 
> As to Socialism being less barbarous than Nationalism - remind me again how many of the people's of Eastern Europe and the Caucasus Lenin, Stalin and co. murdered and slaughtered in the name of the workers revolution...



Beyond empty assertion you have not and cannot provide any proof that a majority of people living in this country thought of themselves as being citizens of Wales/Cymru. That they did think of themselves as being "Cymry" rather than English or Irish is by no means the same thing. National consciousness is a modern invention belnging to the era of capitalism.

And again in relation to Lenin and Stalin you lack the facts to back up your empty claims. If you any ral knowledge of the question you would know that Lenins final struggle was against Russian national chauvinism in the Caucasus and against Stalin. Stalin in the Caucasus as in Russia the embodiement of Russian capitalism and thus national chauvinism.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 22, 2006)

neprimerimye said:
			
		

> That those Welsh workers living in England are more highly qualified, on average, than those remaining in Wales is probably true. But the conclusion that they are therefore not workers is wrong in that the Labour Force Survey, in common with other bourgeois sources, categorises many workers as managers or professionals. In fact many such groups are highly proletarianised and have none of the traditional autonomy of the liberal professions.
> 
> 
> 
> It may be true that from the purely governmental point of view those of our fellow nationals living in England are not our concern but that merely shows the limits of a narrow parochial nationalism. In the real world the fate of one's brother, sister, father or mother who happens to live in England is surely of real concern regardless of the idiotic borders drawn up by national chauvinists.



So the evidence that contradicts your assertions, is bourgeois?   

And as for  the point about concern for Welsh ex-patriates:

It's a practical reality - if they live in another country, then 99% of the time they will be governed by that country. I they reside in Wales, they will be governed by Wales. If you moved to spain tomorrow, how much government, administaration etc would you get from the UK? Very little, even if you are still a UK citizen. It is not "a narrow parochial nationalism", so stop trying to twist my words.

As much as slag nationalism and capitalism off, what is the alternative?

Capitalism has many faults, but it is much preferable to the repressive, brutal regimes that inevitably accompany communist governments. despite its idealistic appeal communism never works in reality. Your utopia, would be the vast majorities nightmarish dystopia, which is why your political ideology is supported by a tiny minority.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 23, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> So the evidence that contradicts your assertions, is bourgeois?
> 
> And as for  the point about concern for Welsh ex-patriates:
> 
> ...



The evidence that was cited supports my arguments and is most certainly bourgeois having been collected by an mpecably bourgeois body. What I dispute is the interpretation of the term class which is used.

As for your rather silly accusation that I'm twisting your words I simply disagree that an independent state is the way to go in Wales. It is a narrow parochial nationalism that says that the well being of hundreds of thopusands of outr fellow nationals who happen not to live here is not our concern.

Capitalism does have many faults on that at least you are correct. But you are quite wrong in your assertion that communism has peroduced repressive brutal regimes given that there have only been two countries cgoverned by communist regimes in modern history and both were suppressed by vicious capitalist counter-revolutions led by Horthy and Stalin.


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## Dai Sheep (Feb 23, 2006)

I have to say, I disagree with you totally. Clearly you do with me - so lets end it there or this will go on forever. This thread has already been completely de-railed, with all this Marxist hocus.


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## neprimerimye (Feb 24, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> I have to say, I disagree with you totally. Clearly you do with me - so lets end it there or this will go on forever. This thread has already been completely de-railed, with all this Marxist hocus.



Well it was you that derailed it you know by asking questions as regards my views. Like it or not Wales is not a self contained country that can simply break away from the rest of the world and then live happily ever after.

Even in an independent Wales chains like Walmart will still exploit and abuse their workforces. And campaigns to promote a Welsh national consciousness, which Malmart will without doubt be happy to sponsor, will not change a thing. Raising the profile of Wales sounds very nice but Malmart will still make very nice profits.

So wherein lie the advantages to the population of Wales if Walmart and the rest of the gang still exploit and oppress us? Real advantages mind not intangibles like national pride and similar bollocks.


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## ZIZI (Feb 24, 2006)

Plaid Cymru are changing their name or rather Identity-whatever that means.  

 So does that mean that they have finally realised that the majority of people in Wales do not want Independence yet until we have our own powers?


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## SparoHawk (Feb 24, 2006)

If Wales went Independent now or in the near future (next 10 yrs) it would be like shutting down our bank account and not taking out our moneyfirst. 

 Because of the way our economy is run we have a right to the profits of that income. 

As it is now, we still come off as big brothers poor cousins. We have a chance through devolution to gain our own powers and some Indepedence but not completely. It is not about wanting the cake and the icing, it is about what is rightfully ours in the first place.


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## jannerboyuk (Feb 24, 2006)

Dai Sheep said:
			
		

> with all this Marxist hocus.


"All that is solid melts into air..."


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