# London buses to go cashless 6 july



## shagnasty (Apr 12, 2014)

I don,t know if this as been posted but from the 6th july you will not be able to pay cash for a ticket.I am not suprised by this move because most people use oyster or concessionary passes

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/london-buses-will-go-cashless-on-6-july-9255312.html


----------



## weltweit (Apr 12, 2014)

How easy is it to buy an Oyster card?

I don't live in London btw.


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 12, 2014)

The reason fewer people pay by cash is because the fare is double that of using an Oystercard. 



weltweit said:


> How easy is it to buy an Oyster card?


It's keeping it topped-up which can be tricky, I still see loads of people caught short.


> TfL has said it will introduce a “one more journey” system, allowing passengers to use the bus if they have a positive balance on their card, but not enough for a single journey.


This and one touch-creditcard should help.


----------



## Johnny Canuck3 (Apr 12, 2014)

We're going to a system where you have to scan a card when you get on and off. It's going to be a huge clusterfuck.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Apr 12, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> It's keeping it topped-up which can be tricky, I still see loads of people caught short.


Don't get why people don't register for auto-top-up. It's well convenient.


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 12, 2014)

Wolveryeti said:


> Don't get why people don't register for auto-top-up. It's well convenient.


Some people are on tight budgets, it's well annoying.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 12, 2014)

Wolveryeti said:


> Don't get why people don't register for auto-top-up. It's well convenient.


Because it never lets you drop below a certain amount:  In addition to the deposit charged on the card, you'll never dip into that minimum balance (£5 at lowest, although some people set it at £10 or more) before the Oyster dips into your bank account and tops itself up.  Handy for the journey, but a nightmare when you're getting close to payday.

The one touch credit card option may be convenient but if you pay with that there's no price cap for the day, unlike with the Oyster.

Also, register my Oyster?  No thanks.  And before you ask, my phone is PAYG.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 12, 2014)

The alleged 'consultation' came out a while back - thread about it here.

Fairly high majority of those responding were against the idea, but it's going ahead as planned...


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 12, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> I still see loads of people caught short.



It really is scandalous how few public loos there are these days. 

Hardly surprising they've decided to go completely cashless - it's been going that way for years, jacking up the cash fare to try and nudge people onto Oyster and so on, and now with contactless debit cards they can argue there's another payment option in place so even less need for cash.  Still a crap decision, though.


----------



## dessiato (Apr 12, 2014)

This is going to cause me a lot of problems. I take students around around London in the summer, they seldom need a card for more than one or two trips during their stay. I suppose I'll have to get a load of cards and distribute them hoping I have enough cards.


----------



## Belushi (Apr 12, 2014)

I have an oystercard but I'd be fucked off if I lost it and couldn't get the bus home because they wont accept cash.


----------



## DotCommunist (Apr 12, 2014)

> TfL has said it will introduce a “one more journey” system, allowing passengers to use the bus if they have a positive balance on their card, but not enough for a single journey.



sounds wide open for abuse lol.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 12, 2014)

It already exists on the tube - I thought it was on the busses too.

Given that the amount you can go into the red is always going to be less than the deposit you pay in the first place it hasn't caused issues so far.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 12, 2014)

I believe they're going to allow one "unpaid" journey on an empty card, that then gets taken off your next top-up. Handy, but all it will do is shift the zero point downwards. People will use their "free" journey, not realise and then come a cropper on the next bus.

Also, they should _really_ get around to allowing multiple bus trips on one "ticket".


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 12, 2014)

At least you won't have it like it is here in Birmingham - cash only, but they don't give any change, you have to have the exact amount. It's a royal pain in the arse


----------



## Blagsta (Apr 12, 2014)

I usually under pay in Birmingham.


----------



## beesonthewhatnow (Apr 12, 2014)

Blagsta said:


> I usually under pay in Birmingham.


Yeah, have lots of coppers and 5p's, nobody can tell then


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 12, 2014)

Stupid, stupid idea. What if someone doesn't have an Oyster Card?  A lot of banks haven't even rolled out contactless payment yet......


----------



## emanymton (Apr 12, 2014)

Won't this hit tourists and occasional visitors the hardest?Or are most outsiders like me and just use the tube because the buses are too fucking complicated?


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 13, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Stupid, stupid idea. What if someone doesn't have an Oyster Card?  A lot of banks haven't even rolled out contactless payment yet......



I agree, but tbh I can see TfL's side of the argument too.  Handling cash imposes costs of its own, and also risks: AFAIK there have been one or two robberies, although they're extremely rare (there are richer pickings than a bus driver's float!) and probably not a major factor.  The other thing is that cash payment does slow things down.  One thing I used to notice when I came up here visiting from London was how long buses waited at stops whilst people paid.  You could construct a case for saying that ending cash payment will make buses more punctual.  Meanwhile, Oyster cards are easy to obtain (and they get three quid out of you for the card on top of the fares!), even outside London, and easy to use.  They, and contactless card payment, are clearly the way things are going.

The oddest thing about this decision is how badly it integrates with getting rid of all the tube ticket offices, since it's tourists and out-of-towners who are least likely to have an Oyster card, and now the obvious place to buy one on arrival in London is about to disappear.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Apr 13, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> The oddest thing about this decision is how badly it integrates with getting rid of all the tube ticket offices, since it's tourists and out-of-towners who are least likely to have an Oyster card, and now the obvious place to buy one on arrival in London is about to disappear.



They should make Oyster cards available in the main London airports.


----------



## weltweit (Apr 13, 2014)

Perhaps if they also have an automatic machine on the bus selling oyster cards... quid, couple of quid, fiver ..


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 13, 2014)

Most public toilets now have Oyster card dispensing machines


----------



## Garek (Apr 13, 2014)

Be good if the could make an Oyster with a small screen that could tell you how much you have left. Or one you can scan with your phone. Or an Oyster aPp.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 13, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> I agree, but tbh I can see TfL's side of the argument too.  Handling cash imposes costs of its own, and also risks: AFAIK there have been one or two robberies, although they're extremely rare (there are richer pickings than a bus driver's float!) and probably not a major factor.  The other thing is that cash payment does slow things down.  One thing I used to notice when I came up here visiting from London was how long buses waited at stops whilst people paid.  You could construct a case for saying that ending cash payment will make buses more punctual.  Meanwhile, Oyster cards are easy to obtain (and they get three quid out of you for the card on top of the fares!), even outside London, and easy to use.  They, and contactless card payment, are clearly the way things are going.
> 
> The oddest thing about this decision is how badly it integrates with getting rid of all the tube ticket offices, since it's tourists and out-of-towners who are least likely to have an Oyster card, and now the obvious place to buy one on arrival in London is about to disappear.


Where can you get an Oyster card outside of London? What if someone is in London, and they don't have an Oyster card, and they need to make a bus journey and all the shops are shut?


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 13, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Where can you get an Oyster card outside of London?



Online, and I'm pretty sure a limited number of shops - mainly at or near stations - in other cities sell them for people travelling to London.  At least one train operator - Hull Trains - also sells them on London-bound services.



> What if someone is in London, and they don't have an Oyster card, and they need to make a bus journey and all the shops are shut?



They're buggered.  Which is why, despite setting out a few ideas for TfL's reasoning, I did also say I agreed with you...


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 13, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> I agree, but tbh I can see TfL's side of the argument too.  Handling cash imposes costs of its own, and also risks: AFAIK there have been one or two robberies, although they're extremely rare (there are richer pickings than a bus driver's float!) and probably not a major factor.  The other thing is that cash payment does slow things down.  One thing I used to notice when I came up here visiting from London was how long buses waited at stops whilst people paid.  You could construct a case for saying that ending cash payment will make buses more punctual.  Meanwhile, Oyster cards are easy to obtain (and they get three quid out of you for the card on top of the fares!), even outside London, and easy to use.  They, and contactless card payment, are clearly the way things are going.
> 
> The oddest thing about this decision is how badly it integrates with getting rid of all the tube ticket offices, since it's tourists and out-of-towners who are least likely to have an Oyster card, and now the obvious place to buy one on arrival in London is about to disappear.



I think it's getting towards the point where the costs of handling the cash are more than the actual cash received.

But I can see the delay caused by paying cash being replace by delay in arguments with people who don't have a valid card...


----------



## moochedit (Apr 13, 2014)

Locals will be ok but I bet that will be a pain in the arse for visiters.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

moochedit said:


> Locals will be ok but I bet that will be a pain in the arse for visiters.


Loads of Londoners are skint, or disorganised, or drunk, or absentminded enough to be fucked over by this. I've lost count of the times i've had to pay by cash cos I can't find my oyster card (usually only to find it in another pocket after sitting down).


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Loads of Londoners are skint, or disorganised, or drunk, or absentminded enough to be fucked over by this. I've lost count of the times i've had to pay by cash cos I can't find my oyster card (usually only to find it in another pocket after sitting down).



Fucked over by this? Surely fucked over by their own drunken stupidity and lack of foresight?

If you lose your front door keys on a night out do you blame your front door lock, or do you blame yourself?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Fucked over by this? Surely fucked over by their own drunken stupidity and lack of foresight?
> 
> If you lose your front door keys on a night out do you blame your front door lock, or do you blame yourself?


People still need to get home, stupid/drunk/disorganised or not


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> People still need to get home, stupid/drunk/disorganised or not



Then they can borrow an Oyster card off someone else, or get a taxi.

Same way when you drunkenly lose your front door key you get a spare you left with a neighbour or call a locksmith.


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> If you lose your front door keys on a night out do you blame your front door lock, or do you blame yourself?


I'd blame the front door and give it a damned good kicking.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Then they can borrow an Oyster card off someone else, or get a taxi.


Neither is ann option for many people.
You can't borrow oyster cards anyway. You can only swipe once.
The cash option is a necessary one and it's daft to give it up


----------



## Ax^ (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> If you lose your front door keys on a night out do you blame your front door lock, or do you blame yourself?



i blame the sky


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Neither is ann option for many people.
> You can't borrow oyster cards anyway. You can only swipe once.



One of your group could carry a spare?  I have three fwiw.

If a bus not excepting coins is going to leave you unable to think of any way to get home or find somewhere safe to stay until morning, perhaps you shouldn't be straying so far from your place of residence and getting so drunk in the first place?

You cant blame bus payment methods for all of your first world problems.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

What if you're on your own? A very likely scenario at the end of a night.


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What if you're on your own? A very likely scenario at the end of a night.



Do whatever it is that you'd do if you were on you're own and had lost your wallet/purse


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Do whatever it is that you'd do if you were on you're own and had lost your wallet.


Walk home? It's daft. They need to keep the cash option, if only for safety reasons.


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Walk home? It's daft. They need to keep the cash option, if only for safety reasons.



What if you're drunk and Oysterless but not near a bus route? Should they offer a free taxi service to the nearest bus stop?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> What if you're drunk and Oysterless but not near a bus route? Should they offer a free taxi service to the nearest bus stop?


Fancy expecting to be able to pay for something with actual money. What are they thinking........

Ridiculous argument.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> What if you're drunk and Oysterless but not near a bus route? Should they offer a free taxi service to the nearest bus stop?


You're being ridiculous now. They just need to be able to accept cash on night buses.
No need to be a bellend about it.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 13, 2014)

I can feel an outbreak of hmm coming on...


----------



## Greebo (Apr 13, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> I can feel an outbreak of hmm coming on...


Pre-Easter weekend, too much time and not enough money, young uns bored or skiving off revision... I don't know what it is, but something around this time of year certainly brings out the more tiresome varieties of troll.


----------



## Garek (Apr 13, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Fucked over by this? Surely fucked over by their own drunken stupidity and lack of foresight?
> 
> If you lose your front door keys on a night out do you blame your front door lock, or do you blame yourself?



Hmm...


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 13, 2014)

Garek said:


> Hmm...



That wasn't her fault or the bus driver's fault it was the rapist's fault.

How about this one? Should she have waited for a bus for which she had the means to pay?


----------



## mack (Apr 13, 2014)

Garek said:


> Be good if the could make an Oyster with a small screen that could tell you how much you have left. Or one you can scan with your phone. Or an Oyster aPp.



Theres an app for android which does this and more.

https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.hanimobile.oysterads


----------



## nagapie (Apr 13, 2014)

It's annoying. My nearest shop doesn't do Oyster so if I need to get a bus that I hadn't planned for, I'll have to walk pretty far before I can even get on one.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 13, 2014)

nagapie said:


> It's annoying. My nearest shop doesn't do Oyster so if I need to get a bus that I hadn't planned for, I'll have to walk pretty far before I can even get on one.


Same as - and although the nearest place which does Oyster is nearer to me than you, even that one often hasn't got the machine working.


----------



## UnderAnOpenSky (Apr 13, 2014)

Garek said:


> Be good if the could make an Oyster with a small screen that could tell you how much you have left. Or one you can scan with your phone. Or an Oyster aPp.



That would be great for me. I only visit London a couple of times a year, so am far more likely to remember where my phone is before I go then an oyster!


----------



## toblerone3 (Apr 13, 2014)

Perhaps the Oyster card could be expanded so that it covers a wider area. Luton and Brighton would be zone 12 and Birmingham zone 18.


----------



## trabuquera (Apr 14, 2014)

I think it's a bad idea ... although I understand that operating in cash is a PITA for the operator, safety considerations (and considerations of catering to visitors / foreigners / drunk people / women / people who often run into unexpected situations) mean that buses definitely do need a cash option... imho making cash fares an extortionate multiple of the oyster fares, which they do already, is enough.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

You can pay for your bus fare on a contactless card, most people have those these days...surely?


----------



## RedDragon (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> You can pay for your bus fare on a contactless card, most people have those these days...surely?


You're so 2035. Why would I have a card I'm not in contact with?


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> You can pay for your bus fare on a contactless card, most people have those these days...surely?


Nope. And I won't for more than 18 months. And not everybody ever will.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

RedDragon said:


> You're so 2035. Why would I have a card I'm not in contact with?


 
That one has gone right over my head....sorry....


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Apr 14, 2014)

nagapie said:


> It's annoying. My nearest shop doesn't do Oyster so if I need to get a bus that I hadn't planned for, I'll have to walk pretty far before I can even get on one.



Couldn't you plan for that unplanned journey by always leaving £1.40 or whatever on the card?


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Nope. And I won't for more than 18 months. And not everybody ever will.


 
This new system "cashless system" will only be really difficult to navigate for people who don't have contactless cards or don't have an idea of how much they need on the oyster card if they don't have auto top up set up?  https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/link/sso/0002.do

Surely if you plan your journey for the week, top up your card and add an "emergency" amount you will be fine?....

Of course withdrawing cash payments on the bus isn't ideal...it's an inconvenience, but one that many people will most likely forget about it pretty quickly.


----------



## nagapie (Apr 14, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Couldn't you plan for that unplanned journey by always leaving £1.40 or whatever on the card?



I'm actually quite an organised person but even I'm not *that* organised.

And then wouldn't you have the same problem coming home anyway, bearing in mind that there are so many places that it's not that easy to find a nearby shop that does top-up.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

TodayIsCaturday said:


> Couldn't you plan for that unplanned journey by always leaving £1.40 or whatever on the card?


Nope - next!


Cowley said:


> <snip> Surely if you plan your journey for the week, top up your card and add an "emergency" amount you will be fine? <snip>


No.  Perhaps your life is more structured than mine:  One fortnight, I can just about make £15 stretch to cover all my off peak bus fares, the next, it doesn't.  All to do with the offpeak cap and when it cuts off.


nagapie said:


> I'm actually quite an organised person but even I'm not *that* organised.


^This.


----------



## nagapie (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> You can pay for your bus fare on a contactless card, most people have those these days...surely?



Ah, I didn't realise this. That would sort me out, but I appreciate it won't for others.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Nope - next!
> 
> No.  Perhaps your life is more structured than mine:  One fortnight, I can just about make £15 stretch to cover all my off peak bus fares, the next, it doesn't.  All to do with the offpeak cap and when it cuts off.


 
Get a bike, that's what most people tend to do in London these days.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> Get a bike, that's what most people tend to do in London these days.


Indeed?

Sweetie, I live in a flat which is up a flight of steps, on an estate near the top of a hill, and I have intermittent but lasting joint injuries (knee, ankle, and a shoulder problem).  It's going to be a long time before cycling is a realistic form of transport for me.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Indeed?
> 
> Sweetie, I live in a flat which is up a flight of steps, on an estate near the top of a hill, and I have intermittent but lasting joint injuries (knee, ankle, and a shoulder problem).  It's going to be a long time before cycling is a realistic form of transport for me.


 
Ah sorry to hear that. I suppose your only "realistic" option would be to go auto top up on a oyster card, that's assuming you don't have or make use of the "contactless card" option?


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> Ah sorry to hear that. I suppose your only "realistic" option would be to go auto top up on a oyster card, that's assuming you don't have or make use of the "contactless card" option?


That is unrealistic.

No suitable card, no wish for a contactless card, and I have a deep-seated loathing of enabling anything to automatically dip into my accounts. 

This isn't paranoia, it's multiple bad experiences (extremely serious banking errors) which came from having a very common surname and a few incompetent banks.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> That is unrealistic.
> 
> No suitable card, no wish for a contactless card, and I have a deep-seated loathing of enabling anything to automatically dip into my accounts.
> 
> This isn't paranoia, it's multiple bad experiences (extremely serious banking errors) which came from having a very common surname and a few incompetent banks.


 
It's not unrealistic, if you manage your oyster card balance efficiently then nothing will automatically come out of your account. Money is only topped up if your balance falls below £10...see below;

https://oyster.tfl.gov.uk/oyster/link/sso/0002.do



> Your Oyster card is topped up every time your pay as you go balance falls below £10 and you make a journey


 
If you don't want what the system requires then it will clearly be difficult.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> It's not unrealistic, if you manage your oyster card balance efficiently then nothing will automatically come out of your account. Money is only topped up if your balance falls below £10...see below <snip>If you don't want what the system requires then it will clearly be difficult.


Sweetie, I am fucking poor, okay?  I don't like the demeaning red tape (repeated every few months) to get a discounted Oyster, so I don't use that.

Instead, I pay full fucking Oyster PAYG fare, which I can just about afford.  A £10 perpetual float on the bloody card is not a viable option, I don't even have access to an overdraft.  £10 is probably just a couple of London pints to you, but to me it's the difference between whether I make ends meet or not.

As for being insufficiently organised, oh my aching sides!  I coordinate two diaries, a complex medication regime, a schedule of various appointments and calls, I issue reminder and repeat reminders to make sure that things are done on time, and all this is on top of managing my own time with plenty of time-sensitive tasks.  

BTW thank you so much for assuming that I hadn't already checked that website and looked into all the options.  Patronising twunt.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> Sweetie, I am fucking poor, okay?  I don't like the demeaning red tape (repeated every few months) to get a discounted Oyster, so I don't use that.
> 
> Instead, I pay full fucking Oyster PAYG fare, which I can just about afford.  A £10 perpetual float on the bloody card is not a viable option, I don't even have access to an overdraft.  £10 is probably just a couple of London pints to you, but to me it's the difference between whether I make ends meet or not.
> 
> BTW thank you so much for assuming that I hadn't already checked that website and looked into all the options.  Patronising twunt.


 
I'm not exactly flush with cash myself, don't understand why the conversation is heading in this direction anyway?

On your previous post you stated that you had no wish for a contactless card and loathing of anyone automatically dipping into your bank account, that seems to me like a choice you have made, hence why I have pressed you on it and the options to hand.

So you don't like the cashless system and that's that? conversation closed? thread closed?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> You can pay for your bus fare on a contactless card, most people have those these days...surely?


No.  I'm with Santander and received a new debit card a few months ago, and it isn't contactless.  It's not due to expire until 2018.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Why would anyone want a contactless debit card anyway? Why not just set up a direct debit to every thief in town?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why would anyone want a contactless debit card anyway? Why not just set up a direct debit to every thief in town?


I'm not sure what you're getting at?


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> No.  I'm with Santander and received a new debit card a few months ago, and it isn't contactless.  It's not due to expire until 2018.


 
I was under the impression most banks in the UK are rolling out new debit cards as contactless. I can't remember where I was reading it, I'll try and find the link. I didn't get my contactless card because I asked for it, it was given to me by default when my old one expired. I can't speak for Santander but I am with HSBC and they do roll them out.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> I'm not sure what you're getting at?



Well, if your card can be charged without it physically touching anything, then it can be charged without you even knowing about it.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> I was under the impression most banks in the UK are rolling out new debit cards as contactless. I can't remember where I was reading it, I'll try and find the link. I didn't get my contactless card because I asked for it, it was given to me by default when my old one expired. I can't speak for Santander but I am with HSBC and they do roll them out.


All I know is my old one expired, and that's the one they sent me to replace it.


SpookyFrank said:


> Well, if your card can be charged without it physically touching anything, then it can be charged without you even knowing about it.


But it needs to be touching the reader, or at least be close to it, doesn't it?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

I don't go to London, not least because of the horrendously visitor-unfriendly public transport system. Is it possible to buy an oyster card with cash? That is, can you get on a bus without using a card which can be traced to you somehow?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> But it needs to be touching the reader, or at least be close to it, doesn't it?



I dunno, I never really found putting my card into the little thingy to be that much of a hassle so I never bothered to look into it.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

A business needs to make things easy for all of its customers to pay, not just a select few early adopters of technology. And a low cpst transport service needs to provide for the many and increasing customers who live hand to mouths. Going cashless isn't going to help matters.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't go to London, not least because of the horrendously visitor-unfriendly public transport system. Is it possible to buy an oyster card with cash? That is, can you get on a bus without using a card which can be traced to you somehow?


Yeah, that's how you get one
 Some people register them but you don't have to


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Why would anyone want a contactless debit card anyway? Why not just set up a direct debit to every thief in town?


 
It has to touch a reader, on the bus...an oyster card reader, in the shops on the chip/pin reader.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Cowley said:


> It has to touch a reader, on the bus...an oyster card reader, in the shops on the chip/pin reader.



So when they say 'contactless' they're not really telling the truth are they?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> I don't go to London, not least because of the horrendously visitor-unfriendly public transport system. Is it possible to buy an oyster card with cash? That is, can you get on a bus without using a card which can be traced to you somehow?


Visitor unfriendly? What?


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> A business needs to make things easy for all of its customers to pay, not just a select few early adopters of technology. And a low cpst transport service needs to provide for the many and increasing customers who live hand to mouths. Going cashless isn't going to help matters.



No, but London is hardly run for the benefit of the masses is it? The only visitors Boris cares about are the ones who drive about in limos and buy up housing estates like they were tuna sandwiches.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> So when they say 'contactless' they're not really telling the truth are they?


 
No they should just call it "touch and go" or something like that. It does sound a bit confusing I got to admit.


----------



## SpookyFrank (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Visitor unfriendly? What?



Last time I got a bus in London was maybe ten years ago. Even then attempting to buy a bus ticket with money seemed like it might be enough to get me stabbed to death and left there at the bus stop as a warning to others.

The reason London's public transport seems unfriendly is not the complicated routes or the baroque payment systems, it's simply the fact that it's all staffed by Londoners.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Last time I got a bus in London was maybe ten years ago. Even then attempting to buy a bus ticket with money seemed like it might be enough to get me stabbed to death and left there at the bus stop as a warning to others.
> 
> The reason London's public transport seems unfriendly is not the complicated routes or the baroque payment systems, it's simply the fact that it's all staffed by Londoners.


When I go up to London I purchase a combined train ticket/Travelcard then sail around on the buses (although I hardly ever use them tbh), Tube and rail, going to where ever I need to go, to  my heart's content.  It's simplicity itself.


----------



## rover07 (Apr 14, 2014)

Last time I tried to get on a London bus with no money, the driver told me to do one.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

rover07 said:


> Last time I tried to get on a London bus with no money, the driver told me to do one.


I've been let on for free a few times. Which is nice.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> When I go up to London I purchase a combined train ticket/Travelcard then sail around on the buses (although I hardly ever use them tbh), Tube and rail, going to where ever I need to go, to  my heart's content.  It's simplicity itself.


Simplicity itself if you know what to do. Not so easy if you're new in town or a tourist


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> But it needs to be touching the reader, or at least be close to it, doesn't it?



Yes, it does.  On the other hand you don't have to put in a pin, so if someone nicks your card they can use it freely until it's cancelled, albeit only up to a pretty low limit.  Apparently there are concerns about the data being easily harvested by fraudsters as well.  Theoretically data should be transmitted no further than 10cm, but some researchers found last year they were able to pick it up at up to half a metre away.  

My bank has just sent me a contactless card, but I've no intention of using it.  I can see how it would be useful when paying for a coffee or something, but I always do that in cash anyway.  And although I don't live in London any more, I do still have an Oyster card which it's hardly a great hassle to maintain a few quid's credit on, and which gives you the travelcard cap etc, which you don't get with contactless debit cards.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Simplicity itself if you know what to do. Not so easy if you're new in town or a tourist


What difficult about it?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

I've used my contactless card by mistake twice already


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> What difficult about it?


You have to buy it in advance don't you?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> You have to buy it in advance don't you?


Buy what in advance?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Buy what in advance?


Combined train ticket/travelcard. Don't you have to pay online?
The train fare system in this country is byzantine enough to a native. Fuck knows how it must seem to a tourist.
I found India's fare system easier to understand


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've used my contactless card by mistake twice already



I thought you weren't meant to be able to do that!

The more I read about contactless cards, the more inclined I am to ring my bank up and tell them that, since it's a) useless and b) a security risk, I'd like it either disabled or replaced with a normal card.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Combined train ticket/travelcard. Don't you have to pay online?
> The train fare system in this country is byzantine enough to a native. Fuck knows how it must seem to a tourist.
> I found India's fare system easier to understand


Um, no. You go to the station and ask for a Travelcard.  The only reason I do it online is  because I get points and cashback from RSH.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Travelcard or oyster card? Simplicity itself!


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Travelcard or oyster card? Simplicity itself!


It's not "Travelcard  or Oyster".  Oyster is simply a payment method. You can put a Travelcard on an Oyster card. The reason I don't have Oyster is because it doesn't make financial sense for me. It's cheaper for me to purchase the paper combined train ticket/Travelcard.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

The only reason a visitor might want a paper Travelcard is so they can take advantage of the 2-for-1 offers.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've been let on for free a few times. Which is nice.


So've I.  I had an Oyster on me but just hadn't realised that it had run out.  Anyway, I only needed to go a few stops.  Not that I'd rely on it - they only seem to let you on for free if you're neither taking the piss nor taking the favour for granted.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> The only reason a visitor might want a paper Travelcard is so they can take advantage of the 2-for-1 offers.


Simplicity itself


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> It's not "Travelcard  or Oyster".  Oyster is simply a payment method. You can put a Travelcard on an Oyster card. The reason I don't have Oyster is because it doesn't make financial sense for me. It's cheaper for me to purchase the paper combined train ticket/Travelcard.


Simplicity itself


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've used my contactless card by mistake twice already





Roadkill said:


> I thought you weren't meant to be able to do that!<snip>


One way around it seems to be to keep your contactless card wrapped in foil except when using it (as mentioned on Moneybox).  NB: you do this at your own risk as I haven't tried it myself.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Simplicity itself





Orang Utan said:


> Simplicity itself




You're determined to make out that it's complicated, even when it isn't, aren't you?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> You're determined to make out that it's complicated, even when it isn't, aren't you?


It is complicated.
There are too many ways of doing it. Too many different fares. And not enough explicit information at point of sale for what to do when you want to go from A to B, esp if you want to go to C on the way


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> It already exists on the tube - I thought it was on the busses too.



No it doesn't. You can still buy a ticket with cash on the tube. If you're taking out a child under 18 using the trains, you're best off buying them an all-zones travelcard for £3. The oystercard fare with a junior oystercard is more. And that's if the kid you're taking out even has an oyster.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> No it doesn't. You can still buy a ticket with cash on the tube. If you're taking out a child under 18 using the trains, you're best off buying them an all-zones travelcard for £3. The oystercard fare with a junior oystercard is more. And that's if the kid you're taking out even has an oyster.


Simplicity itself


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> No it doesn't. You can still buy a ticket with cash on the tube. If you're taking out a child under 18 using the trains, you're best off buying them an all-zones travelcard for £3. The oystercard fare with a junior oystercard is more. And that's if the kid you're taking out even has an oyster.


I meant the go-into-the-red thing


> TfL has said it will introduce a “one more journey” system, allowing passengers to use the bus if they have a positive balance on their card, but not enough for a single journey.


already existed on the tube. Not tried on the bus.


----------



## lazythursday (Apr 14, 2014)

And now Oyster-type cards are slowly starting to appear in other cities, but they're all called something different, and have slightly different rules / pricing structure... why can't we just have one fucking system that works nationwide?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

lazythursday said:


> And now Oyster-type cards are slowly starting to appear in other cities, but they're all called something different, and have slightly different rules / pricing structure... why can't we just have one fucking system that works nationwide?


That would be lovely.
Local transport prices vary so much though.
£2.70 off peak for a bus out of town in Leeds!


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> It is complicated.
> There are too many ways of doing it.


Too many ways of doing what?  You buy an Oyster Card, then top it up.  I don't see where the problem is?  The paper Travelcard for the 2-for-1s is a way of saving money.  No one forces anyone to use it........



> Too many different fares. And not enough explicit information at point of sale for what to do when you want to go from A to B, esp if you want to go to C on the way


Yes, the system isn't set up to deal with simpletons.  Honestly, I don't know what you expect it to be like?  London is HUGE with a MASSIVE train, bus, Tube, rail and tram network. If someone doesn't know what to do they can either, research on that little thing called the Internet, ask at the station, or go the Trip Advisor London forum and post a question.

Honestly, when I went to Newcastle for a few days I had no idea how the Metro system worked, but I didn't come on here bleating about how "complicated" it is.  I did the research necessary to make sure I bought the ticket that was right for me.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

'I did the research necessary'
What if you turned up without knowing beforehand?
Millions do


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Btw the system NEEDS to work for 'simpletons' not just weirdly obsessive rail enthusiasts with a weird agenda


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

It's Easter. My daughter's friends are all going to comic-cons and other geeky meet-ups. I bet good odds that at least one of them will lose or have stolen their junior oystercard before the holidays are over, and just not be able to get home unless a bus driver is nice to them. They can't pay cash, they definitely don't have contactless cards (they're teenagers), and they probably won't have the extra fiver (+fare) to stump up to buy an extra oystercard at a station, if it's open. Much easier to ask your friends for a bus fare than a bus fare + a fiver.

I hate to say think of the children, but really, think of the children. They don't have tons of money, they don't have contactless cards, they aren't well organised, and they are vulnerable. 

So are drunk people. A lot of late-night central London business thrives on drunk people, so it's not as if they're a tiny minority.

There will be a lot of people let on free, I reckon.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> 'I did the research necessary'
> What if you turned up without knowing beforehand?
> Millions do


Yes, it makes sense to turn up at a MAJOR CAPITAL CITY, and do no research whatsoever beforehand....

I mean it's not like there's a whole forum over at Trip Advisor dedicated to answering people's queries about London, nor helpful staff in ticket offices and stations, nor a whole Internet full of information.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Btw the system NEEDS to work for 'simpletons' not just weirdly obsessive rail enthusiasts with a weird agenda



Yeah. The system is there for everyone - drunks, children, the disorganised, the poor - and this makes it harder for them to access it. It's not like you have to pass a driving test to be a bus passenger.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

Despite being very used to the London transport system I often fall foul of it for one reason or another, such as losing my Oyster card, having to make unexpected journeys or simply being forgetful. Visitors are even more likely to hit trouble. If you're stuck nowhere near a tube station or in the middle of the night it can be very hard to charge Oysters, let alone buy new ones.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I meant the go-into-the-red thing
> 
> already existed on the tube. Not tried on the bus.



Ah, fair enough. That is a good idea.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Millions do


And millions of people manage to use London's transport network with no problems whatsoever.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Yes, it makes sense to turn up at a MAJOR CAPITAL CITY, and do no research whatsoever beforehand....
> 
> I mean it's not like there's a whole forum over at Trip Advisor dedicated to answering people's queries about London, nor helpful staff in ticket offices and stations, nor a whole Internet full of information.


Not everyone is so anally prepared about stuff. It needs to be easy enough for people to work out with no prior knowledge. Not everyone uses the internet, or uses it to plan trips


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> And millions of people manage to use London's transport network with no problems whatsoever.


So fuck the sizeable amount who do have a problem


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> And millions of people manage to use London's transport network with no problems whatsoever.


In fact this is bollocks. There are often problems.
Do you work for tfl? Are you Boris? Name makes sense


----------



## Winot (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Not everyone is so anally prepared about stuff. It needs to be easy enough for people to work out with no prior knowledge. Not everyone uses the internet, or uses it to plan trips



What would you do to make it easier? You can pick one thing but answer in detail please.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Not everyone is so anally prepared about stuff. It needs to be easy enough for people to work out with no prior knowledge. Not everyone uses the internet, or uses it to plan trips


Soooooo making preparations for a a trip is being "anal" is it.....? 

You're having a laugh.

You still haven't stated how it could be made "better".....and that's better in a realistic way, not some pie in the sky idea.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> So fuck the sizeable amount who do have a problem


The "sizeable amount" being you?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> Ah, fair enough. That is a good idea.


It is good but it's more use on the tube, when one journey can involve changes. If you had to change buses and ran out on the first one you'd be stuck. Perhaps it could let you go, say, £2 overdrawn.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

I always use a lens hood on my Oyster by the way, that helps.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> The "sizeable amount" being you?



I'd wager that most people on here - who don't have a travelcard - have had to pay a cash fare at some point due to their oyster being lower than they'd thought (it's not always easy to gauge how much you've spent and there's no way of checking till you swipe your card).

Plus children, drunk people, people with learning difficulties, people that have just been robbed... This is a big city, there are plenty of them.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Winot said:


> What would you do to make it easier? You can pick one thing but answer in detail please.


I'd make the fares more universal. It's hard to work out how much you've spent that day and how much you've got left, esp if you use overground, underground and national rail. All stations need to be gated so you can't forget to swipe out and get charged loads. Keep cash transactions and make them cost the same. 
It all needs renationalising of course.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> The "sizeable amount" being you?


No, everyone but you


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 14, 2014)

Greebo said:


> One way around it seems to be to keep your contactless card wrapped in foil except when using it (as mentioned on Moneybox).  NB: you do this at your own risk as I haven't tried it myself.



I can imagine that would work, but it has such a strong whiff of tinfoil hat about it that I think I'd rather take the risk!


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> I can imagine that would work, but it has such a strong whiff of tinfoil hat about it that I think I'd rather take the risk!


I know, but it's something to do with the type of signal - it's weak enough that a piece of foil can block it.  Or you can buy an aluminium card case to do the same job.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'All stations need to be gated so you can't forget to swipe out and get charged loads.


They have to open the gates if there isn't an employee present at the station.


----------



## friendofdorothy (Apr 14, 2014)

Wolveryeti said:


> Don't get why people don't register for auto-top-up. It's well convenient.


Because we don't trust them.  Modern technology, large faceless organisation what could possibly go wrong...


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> They have to open the gates if there isn't an employee present at the station.


Well, you know what the answer to that is!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Well, you know what the answer to that is!


Seems sensible to me not to have guards at the exits of all stations at all times, tbh.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Excuse that facepalm, please littlebabyjesus . it wasn't for you - my phone won't let me delete smilies


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)




----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> I'd wager that most people on here - who don't have a travelcard - have had to pay a cash fare at some point due to their oyster being lower than they'd thought (it's not always easy to gauge how much you've spent and there's no way of checking till you swipe your card).
> 
> Plus children, drunk people, people with learning difficulties, people that have just been robbed... This is a big city, there are plenty of them.


Not sure what has to do with the argument I'm currently having with Mr. Utan?


Orang Utan said:


> No, everyone but you


LOL! You are having a laugh.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'd make the fares more universal. It's hard to work out how much you've spent that day and how much you've got left, esp if you use overground, underground and national rail. All stations need to be gated so you can't forget to swipe out and get charged loads. Keep cash transactions and make them cost the same.
> It all needs renationalising of course.


Um, get a Travelcard on it. Anyway Oyster has a daily cap doesn't it?


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 14, 2014)

friendofdorothy said:


> Because we don't trust them.  Modern technology, large faceless organisation what could possibly go wrong...



That and the fact it only works at tube stations - or used to, anyway - which was little good to me when I lived in south-east London and got around mainly by bus and overground train.  It's not a lot of help to infrequent visitors to London either.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Seems sensible to me not to have guards at the exits of all stations at all times, tbh.


Seems even more sensible to man all stations all of the time.
In any case, it's easy to get through the gates if there's no-one there. (only if you are able-bodied, mind!)


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Not sure what has to do with the argument I'm currently having with Mr. Utan?
> 
> LOL! You are having a laugh.


I'm not really sure what the argument is, beyond you being aghast that not everyone is as clever and as organised as you and that the system should only be designed to work for peope like you


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> In any case, it's easy to get through the gates if there's no-one there. (only if you are able-bodied, mind!)


Not surprising given the gates are left open...................

And there are wide gates.


----------



## purenarcotic (Apr 14, 2014)

SpookyFrank said:


> Well, if your card can be charged without it physically touching anything, then it can be charged without you even knowing about it.



It needs to be touching the reader and it only allows it on payments under 15quid I think.


Orang Utan said:


> Combined train ticket/travelcard. Don't you have to pay online?
> The train fare system in this country is byzantine enough to a native. Fuck knows how it must seem to a tourist.
> I found India's fare system easier to understand



I get a zone 1-6 travel card from the tube machine ticket thingys when I come to London as I always lose my Oyster.  I have never had to pay for this in advance, unless you mean something else?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Um, get a Travelcard on it. Anyway Oyster has a daily cap doesn't it?


Not if you also use national rail trains.
I rarely know what I've spent if i've been travelling round SE London


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'm not really sure what the argument is, beyond you being aghast that not everyone is as clever and as organised as you and that the system should only be designed to work for peope like you


The only thing I'm aghast at is how you keep claiming it's "complicated" when it isn't.  Tell me what is complicated about a Travelcard?


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Not if you also use national rail trains.
> I rarely know what I've spent if i've been travelling round SE London


If you're "travelling around" why aren't you buying a Travelcard?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 14, 2014)

Roadkill said:


> That and the fact it only works at tube stations - or used to, anyway - which was little good to me when I lived in south-east London and got around mainly by bus and overground train.



and to avoid confusion, i take it you mean trains that run overground as part of the national rail network (e.g south eastern) not a London Overground train (the ones you go downstairs to get when you change from the underground at Whitechapel)



To be honest, I'd be inclined to argue that the fares structure on London's transport system is still a bloody sight simpler than it is in the deregulated environment you get in the other UK cities, where you have multiple bus (and in a few cases tram) operators, each of whom sell their own 'one day ticket' as well as (in most cases) there being a multi-operator version.  

Or Birmingham (etc) where Travel West Midlands have an 'exact fare only' policy, with last time I went graduated fares (i.e. higher fares for longer journeys) with no fares info at bus stops, and fares like 87 pence...


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Not surprising given the gates are left open...................
> 
> And there are wide gates.


Thank fuck for those. And you can often get away with hopping over other gates if you are desperate. Not ideal for everyone though


----------



## Roadkill (Apr 14, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> and to avoid confusion, i take it you mean trains that run overground as part of the national rail network (e.g south eastern) not a London Overground train (the ones you go downstairs to get when you change from the underground at Whitechapel)



For the benefit of the pedantic (  ), yes!


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Not if you also use national rail trains.


Um, that's not it says here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/price-capping


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> If you're "travelling around" why aren't you buying a Travelcard?


I dunno. I haven't bought one since oystercards came out. I thought oystercards were supposed to replace travelcards. Simplicity itself.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Thank fuck for those. And you can often get away with hopping over other gates if you are desperate. Not ideal for everyone though


You can't have closed gates without a human being present to help if help is needed. On the tube, where gates are open, you can get on a train and pay at the other end. Seems a sensible, pragmatic solution to me. You're just going to have to get better at remembering to touch out, I'm afraid.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You can't have closed gates without a human being present to help if help is needed. On the tube, where gates are open, you can get on a train and pay at the other end. Seems a sensible, pragmatic solution to me. You're just going to have to get better at remembering to touch out, I'm afraid.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I dunno. I haven't bought one since oystercards came out. I thought oystercards were supposed to replace travelcards. Simplicity itself.


You thought wrong.  As I said earlier, Oyster is a payment method.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Pay as you go turns into a one-day travelcard if you use it enough on a single day. It doesn't replace weekly or monthly, but it does replace daily.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> You thought wrong.  As I said earlier, Oyster is a payment method.


Simplicity itself.
If I get the train to work, then the train back, then an overground and some tubes out for the night, then some nightbuses home, don't expect me or many other people to know exactly how much they are going to have left


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pay as you go turns into a one-day travelcard if you use it enough on a single day. It doesn't replace weekly or monthly, but it does replace daily.


So if you live in London and are an occasional commuter and regular weekend user of all transports, it's still best to stick with oyster?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> So if you live in London and are an occasional commuter and regular weekend user of all transports, it's still best to stick with oyster?


If you mean oyster PAYG then yes. I used to do that when I was freelancing as often I wouldn't need to go anywhere on a given day.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> So if you live in London and are an occasional commuter and regular weekend user of all transports, it's still best to stick with oyster?


To stick to pay as you go, you mean? Quite possibly, yes. You'll need to do the sums, tbh. The travelcard gets put on your oyster too.

It shouldn't be hard to work out. See how much you spend on oyster per week and compare it to the travelcard that you would get. TBH a yearly travelcard probably would save you money still.

Edit: Missed the 'occasional'. If you're occasional, fm's right, you're probably best off with payg.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

What do you mean by PAYG? Not having a season ticket? Simplicity itself! Sorry to bore. But don't tell me that this isn't complicated!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

pay as you go. Hold the card on a reader at the machines, pay an amount, see that amount on the card. 

It is possible to buy weekly and monthly travelcards for an oyster too.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> What do you mean by PAYG? Not having a season ticket? Simplicity itself! Sorry to bore. But don't tell me that this isn't complicated!


this isn't complicated for most people. but it seems beyond your grasp.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> pay as you go. Hold the card on a reader at the machines, pay an amount, see that amount on the card.
> 
> It is possible to buy weekly and monthly travelcards for an oyster too.


Ah, I thought travel cards were separate entities to oyster cards. 
Tourists must find all this _so _easy


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> this isn't complicated for most people. but it seems beyond your grasp.


So we have a system where you can buy either a PAYG oyster card, a daily travel card, a weekly travel card, a monthly travel card, a yearly travel card, a daily travel card on an oyster, a weekly travel card on an oyster, a monthly travel card on an oyster, a yearlt travel card on an oyster, a single fare that varies on time of day and type of vehicle and requires to you to swipe every time you switch method of transport (or not, sometimes it's fine not to) and the price varies according to when you get on and when you get off. 
Not  a complicated system, no.


----------



## Greebo (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> So we have a system where you can buy either a PAYG oyster card, a daily travel card, a weekly travel card, a monthly travel card, a yearly travel card, a daily travel card on an oyster, a weekly travel card on an oyster, a monthly travel card on an oyster, a yearlt travel card on an oyster, a single fare that varies on time of day and type of vehicle and requires to you to swipe every time you switch method of transport (or not, sometimes it's fine not to) and the price varies according to when you get on and when you get off.
> Not  a complicated system, no.


That's about the size of it.  That's before you allow for whether you enter zone 1 or not.


----------



## Pickman's model (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> So we have a system where you can buy either a PAYG oyster card, a daily travel card, a weekly travel card, a monthly travel card, a yearly travel card, a daily travel card on an oyster, a weekly travel card on an oyster, a monthly travel card on an oyster, a yearlt travel card on an oyster, a single fare that varies on time of day and type of vehicle and requires to you to swipe every time you switch method of transport (or not, sometimes it's fine not to) and the price varies according to when you get on and when you get off.
> Not  a complicated system, no.


not really


----------



## scifisam (Apr 14, 2014)

The pricing system between zones, and at different times of day, does make it difficult to judge how much you've spent. 

Then you'll get the occasional time when you really have tapped in and out, and your friend has seen this so you know you're not fooling yourself, and you still get charged the maximum fare as if you hadn't tapped out and the next day you have no money left, even though you should. 

A call to a premium rate number will get you your money back but will cost more than you were overcharged.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> not really


It is complicated, although there are simple solutions, often. For instance, I use payg and top up about every week or so, then more or less forget about it. But I would struggle to tell you all the fares, even on the routes I use. 

tbh this system is good for tfl in that they can sneak in fare rises with people barely noticing. I doubt many people could give you a run down of the various fares even on the routes they use.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Pay as you go turns into a one-day travelcard if you use it enough on a single day. It doesn't replace weekly or monthly, but it does replace daily.


Not if you mix and match underground and NR travel.

In fact, travelling on NR with Oyster is such a massive web of complexity, even this specialised website finds it hard to make clear: http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

scifisam said:


> The pricing system between zones, and at different times of day, does make it difficult to judge how much you've spent.
> 
> Then you'll get the occasional time when you really have tapped in and out, and your friend has seen this so you know you're not fooling yourself, and you still get charged the maximum fare as if you hadn't tapped out and the next day you have no money left, even though you should.
> 
> A call to a premium rate number will get you your money back but will cost more than you were overcharged.


I checked my oyster history the other week, just out of curiosity, and found that I'd been charged a max fare last year without even realising. I bet this happens to a lot of payg people like me, who shove 20 quid on at a time and don't really follow it after that.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not if you mix and match underground and NR travel.


Didn't know that. That is shit.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> I checked my oyster history the other week, just out of curiosity, and found that I'd been charged a max fare last year without even realising. I bet this happens to a lot of payg people like me, who shove 20 quid on at a time and don't really follow it after that.


Yep. It's like auto top-up on PAYG phones. Easy to just let it pay for you and you end up paying more than if you'd got a contract.


----------



## Winot (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I'd make the fares more universal. It's hard to work out how much you've spent that day and how much you've got left, esp if you use overground, underground and national rail. All stations need to be gated so you can't forget to swipe out and get charged loads. Keep cash transactions and make them cost the same.
> It all needs renationalising of course.



Yes, universal fares would make things simpler. But that would inevitably mean some fares increasing in price, wouldn't it, which would piss off those people who presently pay only those fares. 

Also, putting in barriers at every station, whilst I'm sure is the eventual objective, costs money which has to come from somewhere. Maybe accelerating the barriers would mean fares had to rise to pay for it, which again wouldn't be popular. 

Keeping cash transactions at the same price as Oyster fares would mean no incentive to switch to Oyster. The reason they want that is that handling cash is expensive (meaning fares would go up) and slows down transaction times (London buses have improved their punctuality partly because of the switch to Oyster). 

This isn't necessarily meant to be an argument against your desired change - only to point out that changes such as this have consequences which need to be thought through carefully before making the change.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not if you mix and match underground and NR travel.
> 
> In fact, travelling on NR with Oyster is such a massive web of complexity, even this specialised website finds it hard to make clear: http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/


And millions of people commute or visit London in the evening via National Rail.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Not if you mix and match underground and NR travel.
> 
> In fact, travelling on NR with Oyster is such a massive web of complexity, even this specialised website finds it hard to make clear: http://www.oyster-rail.org.uk/


I thought I was right about that. Phew.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Didn't know that. That is shit.


Actually, I take it back, I think I'm misinformed.

I can't find an authoritative source, however


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I thought I was right about that. Phew.


Yeah, sorry, I don't use NR routes. That's really massively shit.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Actually, I take it back, I think I'm misinformed.
> 
> I can't find an authoritative source, however


Aaargh.
See, it is confusing!


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Aaargh.
> See, it is confusing!


It's even confusing transport geeks.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

tbh, given the wailing noises that the South London TOCs made about the issue, it's a wonder we can use Oyster on them at all.

The sooner all metro rail gets taken over by TFL, the better.

They're getting the lion's share of the Liverpool Street metro services, which will be a test of whether they can do the rest. The next round of franchises will be interesting.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Actually, I take it back, I think I'm misinformed.
> 
> I can't find an authoritative source, however


Um.........



Bungle73 said:


> Um, that's not it says here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/fares-and-payments/oyster/using-oyster/price-capping


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Um.........


Simplicity itself that page


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> The sooner all metro rail gets taken over by TFL, the better.


So the trains used by people who don't live in London and have no vote in the London elections will be controlled by a London transport organisation? Nice.....


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Apr 14, 2014)

Lens hoods _and_ filters


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Simplicity itself that page


Do you always have a nervous breakdown when faced with more than two choices of something?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> So the trains used by people who don't live in London and have no vote in the London elections will be controlled by a London transport organisation? Nice.....


They will benefit from an improved, integrated system. And many of them work in London. What's not to like.


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Do you always have a nervous breakdown when faced with more than two choices of something?


I'm just glad I don't live in Cheshunt or Chorleywood


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Um.........


Thank you 

The actual fares themselves are all over the place though. NR fares are set by NR, not TfL.


Bungle73 said:


> So the trains used by people who don't live in London and have no vote in the London elections will be controlled by a London transport organisation? Nice.....


No, the long distance trains can carry on as normal. The metro services, ie the ones that stay largely within the city, should go to TfL. The Sutton loop. Everything that terminates at Dartford. Hayes. Epsom Downs, Caterham, Tattenham Corner. Kingston loop. etc.
And then long term, the long distance trains need to be taken off those tracks entirely. Tunel through the Zones and leave the dense network of metro stations to vastly increase their capcity for actually moving people around the city instead of in and out of it.

London's population is going to grow like crazy in the next 50 years. A long distance train takes up the pathing space of many many more local services. They will need to be segregated, so the track can be put to optimum use.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 14, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Thank you
> 
> The actual fares themselves are all over the place though. NR fares are set by NR, not TfL.
> 
> No, the long distance trains can carry on as normal. The metro services, ie the ones that stay largely within the city, should go to TfL. The Sutton loop. Everything that terminates at Dartford. Hayes. Epsom Downs, Caterham, Tattenham Corner. Kingston loop. etc.


How are defining "metro"?  Southeastern's metro services extend all the way to Sevenoaks, and Gillingham:
http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/download/518.7/network-map/



> And then long term, the long distance trains need to be taken off those tracks entirely. Tunel through the Zones and leave the dense network of metro stations to vastly increase their capcity for actually moving people around the city instead of in and out of it.
> 
> London's population is going to grow like crazy in the next 50 years. A long distance train takes up the pathing space of many many more local services. They will need to be segregated, so the track can be put to optimum use.


Can't see it happening.


----------



## Crispy (Apr 14, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> How are defining "metro"?  Southeastern's metro services extend all the way to Sevenoaks, and Gillingham:
> http://www.southeasternrailway.co.uk/download/518.7/network-map/
> 
> 
> Can't see it happening.


Something's got to give, or South London will seize up.


----------



## emanymton (Apr 15, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> Soooooo making preparations for a a trip is being "anal" is it.....?
> 
> You're having a laugh.
> 
> You still haven't stated how it could be made "better".....and that's better in a realistic way, not some pie in the sky idea.


I am a pretty cautious person who tends to plan things out in advance. But unexpected stuff happens and that is when this will screw people over. If they are promoting 'contactless' as the alternative they should wait until the vast majority of people have them not just a handful otherwise people will be stuffed if they suddenly need to make an unexpected trip. And Fucks knows what you do if you loose you wallet it's not like you will be able to just borrow a couple of quid of someone to get you home.


----------



## Cowley (Apr 15, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I am a pretty cautious person who tends to plan things out in advance. But unexpected stuff happens and that is when this will screw people over. If they are promoting 'contactless' as the alternative they should wait until the vast majority of people have them not just a handful otherwise people will be stuffed if they suddenly need to make an unexpected trip. And Fucks knows what you do if you loose you wallet it's not like you will be able to just borrow a couple of quid of someone to get you home.


 
I wouldn't be overly surprised if they wanted to push the oyster card "auto top up" scheme as an alternative method too, makes them money after all. I am not saying it's right, just pointing it out.


----------



## Radar (Apr 15, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> I've used my contactless card by mistake twice already


How did you manage that ??

As long as you don't keep your oyster in the same wallet, why would you be waving your card near a reader in the first place ?


----------



## Orang Utan (Apr 15, 2014)

Radar said:


> How did you manage that ??
> 
> As long as you don't keep your oyster in the same wallet, why would you be waving your card near a reader in the first place ?


By moving my card to the reader to key in my PIN, only to be told it had already gone through. Happened in Lidl and WH Smith IIRC


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 15, 2014)

emanymton said:


> I am a pretty cautious person who tends to plan things out in advance. But unexpected stuff happens and that is when this will screw people over. If they are promoting 'contactless' as the alternative they should wait until the vast majority of people have them not just a handful otherwise people will be stuffed if they suddenly need to make an unexpected trip. And Fucks knows what you do if you loose you wallet it's not like you will be able to just borrow a couple of quid of someone to get you home.


That reply has zero to do with my post. I never mentioned anything about contactless payment.  The discussion was about something entirely different.....


----------



## yardbird (Apr 15, 2014)

How am I going to cope with all this payment chaos?
I'm a slightly befuddled OAP.
Does my West Sussex free bus pass work in London?


----------



## Radar (Apr 15, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> By moving my card to the reader to key in my PIN, only to be told it had already gone through. Happened in Lidl and WH Smith IIRC


yeah; some of the terminals seem to operate in "I'll accept either" mode, rather than the more traditional use whatever mode the till tells you to use.

Even so, the usual method of confusion relating to oysters seems to be keeping a contactless card in the same wallet as your oyster and getting card clash when using the oyster. Once you keep the oyster on its own the problems go away.


----------



## Bungle73 (Apr 15, 2014)

yardbird said:


> Does my West Sussex free bus pass work in London?


Yes, it works all over England, but only on buses.  It should have stated this in the info you received with it.


----------



## scifisam (Apr 15, 2014)

yardbird said:


> How am I going to cope with all this payment chaos?
> I'm a slightly befuddled OAP.
> Does my West Sussex free bus pass work in London?



Yes, it does, don't worry.  If you were to lose it I bet the drivers would let you on, too. They're much kinder to pensioners than teenagers.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Apr 15, 2014)

yardbird said:


> How am I going to cope with all this payment chaos?
> I'm a slightly befuddled OAP.
> Does my West Sussex free bus pass work in London?



Yes, but only on buses.  And 'bus' does include the 'heritage Routemasters' on routes 9 and 15 but not the 'sightseeing tour' buses.

(London Councils fund free travel on trains /underground / trams / DLR for London resident older / disabled people, but people with passes issued by councils outside London don't get this.)   

Likewise you can use it on bus services anywhere in England (and I do mean England; Wales Scotland and NI have separate schemes) - although legally only between 0930 and 2259 Mon - Fri, any time weekends and bank holidays.  In some areas you can use any concessionary pass at other times, in some areas you can only use local ones.  Similarly, the pass does not legally have to be valid on things like tram / metro systems - in some places, local pass-holders get free travel, other people don't (e.g. Nottingham trams accept Nottingham City / Nottinghamshire County passes, but not passes from anywhere else.)

this TfL page (aim towards the bottom of the page) seems to suggest that you can use England (not London) passes at any time on London buses - the 0930-2259 rule doesn't apply.  

It also says that the yellow Oyster Card reader on London buses won't know what your pass is, so you should just show it to the driver.  (London developed Oyster Card before - different - national smart card standards were agreed...)


----------



## Belushi (Jul 8, 2014)

The buses are cashless now, bet loads of folks are going to get caught out.


----------



## clicker (Jul 8, 2014)

any idea what the drivers have been advised re school kids getting on who have lost their zipcard on the way to school?


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2014)

clicker said:


> any idea what the drivers have been advised re school kids getting on who have lost their zipcard on the way to school?



Tell them to walk 
Did us no harm 
Etc


----------



## clicker (Jul 8, 2014)

Watched one of them trying that approach last September to a girl about 11 - brand new uniform which was miles too big for her, obviously new at secondary school - some kids don't know the 4 mile walk home yet .. she was pleading with him to be let on, middle of blackheath and  crying her eyes out. I paid her fare.


----------



## Belushi (Jul 8, 2014)

clicker said:


> Watched one of them trying that approach last September to a girl about 11 - brand new uniform which was miles too big for her, obviously new at secondary school - some kids don't know the 4 mile walk home yet .. she was pleading with him to be let on, middle of blackheath and  crying her eyes out. I paid her fare.



Good work. I've paid for people stuck in town before now, problem is we cant do that anymore.


----------



## clicker (Jul 8, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Good work. I've paid for people stuck in town before now, problem is we cant do that anymore.


exactly  just hoping they've been given some advice that borders on humanitarian.


----------



## Badgers (Jul 8, 2014)

clicker said:


> exactly  just hoping they've been given some advice that borders on humanitarian.



I would be very surprised if they have not


----------



## clicker (Jul 8, 2014)

Letting it be known wouldn't hurt - put a notice on the buses so the kids know and don't have to deal with a mr grumpy at the end of a shift. The garage told me last year that the girl should have been let on and given a yellow slip of paper? She wasn't.


----------



## Winot (Jul 12, 2014)

Just seen my first cashless-bus row: 3 mates get on and tap in; the 4th tries to tap in but has no credit left on his Oyster. 

They were quite reasonable about it (at first) - offered to pay by cash, Visa, their mate's Oyster. 

No sign of the 'last trip home' working.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 12, 2014)

clicker said:


> any idea what the drivers have been advised re school kids getting on who have lost their zipcard on the way to school?


ascertain which gang they're in and drop them in the territory of their opponents.


----------



## kittyP (Jul 12, 2014)

Orang Utan said:


> Simplicity itself if you know what to do. Not so easy if you're new in town or a tourist


Like the capitals of most countries.


----------



## Mr Smin (Jul 22, 2014)

Belushi said:


> Good work. I've paid for people stuck in town before now, problem is we cant do that anymore.


I can. I normally carry my oyster plus at least one bank card. Mrs Smin insists that none of her contactless bank cards are working and she regularly forgets to top up her oyster


----------



## Bungle73 (Jul 22, 2014)

My bank doesn't even issue contactless cards.


----------



## TodayIsCaturday (Jul 22, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> My bank doesn't even issue contactless cards.



http://www.contactless.info/updateonukrollout.asp
http://www.which.co.uk/money/bank-a...ank-account/how-to-switch-your-bank-account-/


----------



## nagapie (Jul 22, 2014)

While it's been easier for me as I've got a contactless card, my partner just changed banks and got a brand spanking new card that is NOT contactless. 

Also the other day a guy got on the bus and tried to pay with money. When the bus driver said no, he told the bus driver that he was in trouble and looked out of the bus nervously. The bus driver made him get out


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2014)

nagapie said:


> Also the other day a guy got on the bus and tried to pay with money.


the wrong sort of money


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2014)

i carry neither an oyster nor a contactless card and manage quite alright.


----------



## Metal Malcolm (Jul 22, 2014)

Saw an interesting one a few days ago.

3 people got on in a group. One used his oyster, the second used a contactless card.

Third one tried his oyster, but it was out. Asked to pay by cash - not allowed. The second person then tried to pay for them on their card, but couldn't as they'd already paid for themselves. In the end, all three ended up getting off. Bit of a shitter, no?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2014)




----------



## nagapie (Jul 22, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> i carry neither an oyster nor a contactless card and manage quite alright.



Heh? Is that because you've got the Batmobile?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2014)

nagapie said:


> Heh? Is that because you've got the Batmobile?


no, it's because i have an auld-style card travelcard.

like this one







but valid


----------



## nagapie (Jul 22, 2014)

Pickman's model said:


> no, it's because i have an auld-style card travelcard.
> 
> like this one



So will ye olde season tickets stay or will that be changing too?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jul 22, 2014)

nagapie said:


> So will ye olde season tickets stay or will that be changing too?


i hope they stay for some time yet! i don't like oyster cards.


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jul 22, 2014)

So you can pay by contactless card. Does it work the same way as an oyster or is there another sensor that picks up the data? i don't have an Oyster and rarely come into the Great Wen except on the tube. I would hate for the bus to take all of the money in my current account. Do you also have to click out when you get off.

Don't bother to answer this I have done a search and got the answer.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 22, 2014)

Hocus Eye. said:


> So you can pay by contactless card. Does it work the same way as an oyster or is there another sensor that picks up the data? i don't have an Oyster and rarely come into the Great Wen except on the tube. I would hate for the bus to take all of the money in my current account. Do you also have to click out when you get off.
> 
> Don't bother to answer this I have done a search and got the answer.



for the benefit of others who may read the thread

a) you just beep the card on the card reader on the bus / at the station - it's the same reader whether it's oyster or contactless card.

b) with buses, you just beep on boarding - the fare is the same however many journeys long a journey you make

c) with trains / underground / DLR, you need to beep on entering and leaving, so it knows what fare to charge.  If you fail to register out, I think it will charge you the maximum for a London journey.  Remember this even if there's no ticket barriers.

d) there are some journeys by rail (usually those involving one of the orbital 'overground' routes) where with Oyster, you're supposed to beep on a pink card reader where you change trains to prove you've stayed in zone 2 and not gone through central london.

One thing that may be worth mentioning though, Oyster has a 'daily price cap' - i.e. .when you've reached the equivalent cost of a one day travelcard / one day bus pass for the travel you've made so far that day, you stop paying any more (unless you go into a further zone) - to the best of my knowledge, contactless bank cards don't do that so if you're doing a lot of travel on one day, it could get expensive.

(edited to clarify balls-up)


----------



## Hocus Eye. (Jul 22, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> for the benefit of others who may read the thread
> 
> a) you just beep the card on the card reader on the bus / at the station - it's the same reader whether it's oyster or contactless card.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that further info. When I come into Sin City I buy a one day Travelcard for the Over/Underground. It doesn't work on the buses though.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 22, 2014)

Contactless is only for buses I thought, not the tube/train.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 22, 2014)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Thanks for that further info. When I come into Sin City I buy a one day Travelcard for the Over/Underground. It doesn't work on the buses though.



huh?  

one day travelcards are - and always have been - valid on 'Transport for London' buses - that's almost anything bus shaped inside greater london with the exception of commuter coaches and the open top sightseeing tour buses.  (there are a few complications on routes right on the fringes of london - it depends on whether it's a TfL bus that ventures outside London or a non TfL bus that ventures in to the Greater London Area.)

it's also valid on all the 'used to be BR' type trains, the underground, this new fangled overground thing, the croydon trams, and the docklands light railway.

if it's a paper travelcard, you have to show it to the bus driver (or wave it in their general direction while they ignore you) rather than beep it on the ticket machine.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 22, 2014)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Thanks for that further info. When I come into Sin City I buy a one day Travelcard for the Over/Underground. It doesn't work on the buses though.


You don't tap in on buses wth a travelcard, just wave it at the driver as you pass.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 22, 2014)

Crispy said:


> Contactless is only for buses I thought, not the tube/train.



 at me.



> You can already use contactless payment cards on buses, but later in 2014 you'll be able to use them on Tube, tram, DLR, London Overground and most National Rail services in London, as well.



from here.

The amount of publicity about them, I thought you already could.  I should stick to talking about buses...

I must admit that I don't have a contactless card and I never pay on TfL services these days.  (  )


----------



## scifisam (Jul 22, 2014)

Puddy_Tat said:


> for the benefit of others who may read the thread
> 
> a) you just beep the card on the card reader on the bus / at the station - it's the same reader whether it's oyster or contactless card.
> 
> ...


The fare is the same however many via journeys you make? Is that new? I've always been charged per bus journey. Or did you mean however far you travel?


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Jul 22, 2014)

scifisam said:


> The fare is the same however many via journeys you make? Is that new? I've always been charged per bus journey. Or did you mean however far you travel?



another  at me.

i think it's time i went to bed.

yes, i meant however far you travel on any one (tfl) bus it's the same fare.

obviously, with a bus pass / travelcard, then you can make as many journeys as you darn well like.

and with oyster pay as you go (but not contactless) there's the 'daily capping' i mentioned earlier.


----------



## Bungle73 (Jul 22, 2014)

Metal Malcolm said:


> S The second person then tried to pay for them on their card, but couldn't as they'd already paid for themselves.


What?  What if one person wants to pay for several people? 



Pickman's model said:


> i hope they stay for some time yet! i don't like oyster cards.


Why not? If it's some conspiracy theory bollocks I'm not interested.


----------



## Bungle73 (Jul 22, 2014)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Thanks for that further info. When I come into Sin City I buy a one day Travelcard for the Over/Underground. It doesn't work on the buses though.


Why did you think it didn't work on buses?  Travelcards are valid on all public transport within London (with a few exceptions).

Also, if you come in on a train, you should purchase a combined train ticket/Travelcard which is usually cheaper than two separate tickets.


----------



## Metal Malcolm (Jul 22, 2014)

Bungle73 said:


> What?  What if one person wants to pay for several people?



Err... 'tough shit' I believe is the answer.


----------

