# Microsoft's new 'Courier' tablet/booklet mobile device



## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

If this is real, the video shows a very impressive piece of technology, although the interface seems a bit on the complex side. It's clearly a prototype of some type, but I can see the potential.



> Courier is a real device, and we've heard that it's in the "late prototype" stage of development. It's not a tablet, it's a booklet. The dual 7-inch (or so) screens are multitouch, and designed for writing, flicking and drawing with a stylus, in addition to fingers. They're connected by a hinge that holds a single iPhone-esque home button. Statuses, like wireless signal and battery life, are displayed along the rim of one of the screens.



http://gizmodo.com/5365299/courier-first-details-of-microsofts-secret-tablet


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## Sunray (Sep 23, 2009)

That looks great. I like the concept of the interface apart from actually writing?  

I'm not sure that technology can make it natural enough yet?  Current high tech screens don't allow my pen to touch exactly where I write and I find that slightly disconcerting. The glossy nature of the screen does similar.


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## RaverDrew (Sep 23, 2009)

It's like a space-age filofax


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## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

I love the idea of physically swiping pictures and text from a web site and putting it into my 'journal' on the other screen.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 23, 2009)

I like the look of it.

In fact I've been waiting for ages for something like this to come out. It's like a better version of a kindle (albeit a bit less portable) - BUT something that you can surf web on, write notes on, download books, news/mags on and probably everything else in between. I want one.


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## Crispy (Sep 23, 2009)

it's a slightly odd interface. "...so I look him up on the map..." and "...so I give him access to this journal..." are the same interaction - swip from one screen to the other, with no vidual clue as to what will happen when you do it.

Also, fingers _and_ stylus? The demo shows multi-touch, so it's a capacative screen, which means a special stylus, not any arbitrary pointy thing...


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## London_Calling (Sep 23, 2009)

The business applications seem straightforward but I can also see it as a place to keep interesting 'stuff' you come across in everyday life. Would work very well as a journal/life diary/travel diary kind of thing for the yoof (and others!)

I think it's a big deal and the market will eventually be huge.

Does it combine text or email yet?

The name is a bit iffy, isn't it?


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## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

I don't think we're seeing the final thing, but the 'book' concept looks very intuitive and a real innovation, especially for students and researchers. It sure makes Kindle - which I also like - look like something out of the Stone Age too.


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## jæd (Sep 23, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> The business applications seem straightforward but I can also see it as a place to keep interesting 'stuff' you come across in everyday life. Would work very well as a journal/life diary/travel diary kind of thing for the yoof (and others!)
> 
> I think it's a big deal and the market will eventually be huge.
> 
> ...



I've never used it, but apparently Microsoft's One Note software is supposed to be the bees-knees of note-taking software. If they replicate that in a more portable format, they're onto a winner. And even if this is just vaporware (or one several ideas : http://news.cnet.com/8301-13860_3-10359367-56.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20 ) it will hopefully push others (ie, Apple) to release tablets...


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## jæd (Sep 23, 2009)

editor said:


> I don't think we're seeing the final thing, but the 'book' concept looks very intuitive and a real innovation, especially for students and researchers. It sure makes Kindle - which I also like - look like something out of the Stone Age too.



Kindle has _always_ looked like it comes from the Stone Age...


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## themonkeyman (Sep 23, 2009)

that is very cool, I like the look fo that.  Nice find, I like the way that you can share things with people on the fly.  I would love one of them for my work now


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## kained&able (Sep 23, 2009)

that is very very cool indeed.


dave


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## nick h. (Sep 23, 2009)

This guy says Gizmodo's got it wrong - he says it's called the Codex and it's smaller: 

http://www.beingmanan.com/wp/2009/0...c-prototype-in-action-images-video/#more-1819


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## dogmatique (Sep 23, 2009)

He's crapping on about an obviously early prototype - the Courier is very hot off the press, unlike the lab stage Codex.  As Gizmodo state, the Courier is an actual device at "late prototype stage".


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## editor (Sep 23, 2009)

Gizmodo seem pretty confident of its source, promising 'lots more info' later this week.


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## dogmatique (Sep 23, 2009)

It's actually going on display at the Gizmodo show isn't it?


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## editor (Sep 29, 2009)

New video here, possibly of a more polished version: http://gizmodo.com/5369493/the-courier-files-how-microsoft-thinks-well-use-their-secret-tablet

I think it's a really great idea.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 29, 2009)

It looks great. I want one now.

I wonder what the inevitable apple version will be though? It would be nice for them to be on the back foot for once.


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## editor (Sep 29, 2009)

I'll almost guarantee that the Apple tablet won't use a pen - and I think that's the Courier's greatest strength.


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## cybertect (Sep 29, 2009)

editor said:


> New video here, possibly of a more polished version: http://gizmodo.com/5369493/the-courier-files-how-microsoft-thinks-well-use-their-secret-tablet



Are Microsoft encouraging copyright infringement of photographs posted on the web in that video?

"And if you need to find the perfect photo for your presentation, just launch your browser, scroll through your favourite sites until you find the missing piece. Just clip it and drag it into your presentation.

And with one more click you can surf your contacts and share your inspiration with everyone on your team."


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

Some more videos have emerged and it looks to be a* very* interesting concept.

It's certainly got me a lot more excited than another content-shifting tablet device coming up on the horizon:

http://www.wirefresh.com/microsoft-courier-revolutionary-tablet-device-more-photos-and-details/


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## themonkeyman (Mar 8, 2010)

it does look nice


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## LC1980 (Mar 8, 2010)

I want one!


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## beesonthewhatnow (Mar 8, 2010)

Am I the only person here that thinks it looks quite funky but will actually be utterly shit then?

By the look of things it relies on handwriting recognition. So it will be useless.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

I like the fact that it's got stylus and finger control with the two screens. The problem with tablets is that you have to have the things flat on a desk to use them - and people can easily look at what you're doing. A 'book' style twin screen tablet looks far more attractive too me.


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

The whole idea of a two screen UI using a blend of finger touches and a fucking stylus promises to be made of fail, particularly given that it's from MS. Looks lovely though


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 8, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Am I the only person here that thinks it looks quite funky but will actually be utterly shit then?
> 
> By the look of things it relies on handwriting recognition. So it will be useless.






			
				editor said:
			
		

> I like the fact that it's got stylus and finger control with the two screens. The problem with tablets is that you have to have the things flat on a desk to use them - and people can easily look at what you're doing. A 'book' style twin screen tablet looks far more attractive too me.



I think its a great idea, handwriting fits the form factor perfectly. I can write a lot faster on my mates HP tablet then I can use an onscreen keyboard on any phone I've used.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

beesonthewhatnow said:


> Am I the only person here that thinks it looks quite funky but will actually be utterly shit then?
> 
> By the look of things it relies on handwriting recognition. So it will be useless.


Even the handwriting recognition on my Android worked just fine but I imagine there'll be a onscreen keyboard too.

If it lives up to its promise I think we'll be seeing something really revolutionary here. I like the folded twin screen concept (with a tablet you're basically showing the world what you're doing) and for some tasks, a stylus is WAY better than smudging hefty fingers about.


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## LC1980 (Mar 8, 2010)

The success of that Nintendo DS has shown how twin screen gadgets can work.


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

I fundamentally disagree - outside of designers and Wacom tablets, folks shouldn't be asked to go back to stylii any time soon. Retrograde step imo, introducing an extra level of confusion and fudge to the UI. And something else to lose as well.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

tarannau said:


> I fundamentally disagree - outside of designers and Wacom tablets, folks shouldn't be asked to go back to stylii any time soon. Retrograde step imo, introducing an extra level of confusion and fudge to the UI. And something else to lose as well.


Last night I played Scrabble on Eme's Palm Centro after playing it on my iPhone solidly for months. Guess which interface was the fastest and the easiest to use?

There's loads of times I've wished my iPhone had a stylus as fingers aren't particularly precise things on small screens, and unless you really persevere at it, are awful for sketching and writing on.

I'm withholding judgement until I see the thing, but I think the twin screen concept is a real breath of fresh air. It certainly looks a lot more innovative and exciting than some similar products currently being touted.


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2010)

If it's capacative touch, then the stylus needs a special nib. If it's resistive touch, then anything will work as a stylus, but multitouch is out, as is anything approaching smoothness. Do we know which they're using yet?

Seems weird to still have the stylus tbh. WM7 is all about fingers, with big buttons and physical interaction.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Seems weird to still have the stylus tbh. WM7 is all about fingers, with big buttons and physical interaction.


I just showed Eme the videos and she *loved* the fact you could sketch on the thing, as do I. 

I'd have no problem using both a stylus and fingers and reckon a lot of people will feel the same - in fact some iPhone users have started using  both courtesy of  snack sausages used as iPhone styluses (!).


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

I have no problem using both, but it's just daft and archaic for the vast majority of purposes. If your controls are that small that it requires near-pinhead control then it's almost always a sign that the interface is designed badly or the screen's overbusy.


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## LC1980 (Mar 8, 2010)

Touch screen things have always annoyed me, i'm glad developments are shifting away from them.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

tarannau said:


> I have no problem using both, but it's just daft and archaic for the vast majority of purposes. If your controls are that small that it requires near-pinhead control then it's almost always a sign that the interface is designed badly or the screen's overbusy.


It could be argued that if you need massive, screen-hogging child-like buttons to accomplish any task, then perhaps there's room for improvement in the interface.

It's obvious the Courier's not for you, but I'm finding the concept very interesting indeed. I'd rather be interacting with a small, book-like device in a cafe or pub than laying a tablet flat on the table for all to see, and as a designer, I'd find the stylus a lot easier for sketching out ideas than smudging a finger around.


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## themonkeyman (Mar 8, 2010)

editor said:


> I just showed Eme the videos and she *loved* the fact you could sketch on the thing, as do I.
> 
> I'd have no problem using both a stylus and fingers and reckon a lot of people will feel the same - in fact some iPhone users have started using  both courtesy of  snack sausages used as iPhone styluses (!).



erm - http://www.topiphoneresource.info/best-iphone-gloves/


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

I have no idea if it's for me or not, given that it's nowhere near released yet.  

Graphics tablets have existed for years as have stylii, neither of which have gained mass traction with joe public. For specific users perhaps, but there's a limited number of people who'll use them anything other than awkwardly or as some kind of etch-a-sketch style novelty. 

Sell them as optional extras by all means, but potentially compromising the UI to entertain stylii when you've already got 2 screens of finger real estate seems to show a lack of confidence and clarity in the interface already.,


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## LC1980 (Mar 8, 2010)

editor said:


> It could be argued that if you need massive, screen-hogging child-like buttons to accomplish any task, then perhaps there's room for improvement in the interface.
> 
> It's obvious the Courier's not for you, but I'm finding the concept very interesting indeed.



I think iPhone fanboys are worried that their toy will look very basic now. There's only so many people you can impress with silly 'apps' that have no real use.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 8, 2010)

I never thought I'd say this but this thing from MS actually is more interesting and exciting to me than the iPad....


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2010)

Just doing some basic scaling off those new images, the courier seems to be about 11.5x7.5 inches, unfolded, and 5.75x7.5 folded. The ipad, for comparison is 9.5x7.5. The courier's screens seem to be 8" and the ipad has a 9.7" screen (the courier has 35% more total screen area)

I'll be buying tablet of some sort, I think, and this thing is very interesting. Will definitely provide some much-needed competition for the ipad.


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

MS do give good demos though. Rememeber that flashy multotouch table thing amongst others?

It's the execution and not serving up a compromised dogs dinner thing they struggle with more


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

tarannau said:


> Sell them as optional extras by all means, but potentially compromising the UI to entertain stylii when you've already got 2 screens of finger real estate seems to show a lack of confidence and clarity in the interface already.,


How is offering both finger and stylus input showing a "lack of confidence" and displaying a lack of "clarity"? 



From what I've seen of the Courier interface it seems extremely straightforward and quite revolutionary, and as a note taker it looks _leagues ahea_d of the current competition (if it delivers on its promises, natch).


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## Crispy (Mar 8, 2010)

If the stylus is only used for handwriting/drawing _and_ there are no interface elements too small for fingers _and_ there are alternative input methods in case you lose the stylus _and_ those methods work well and don't compromise the user experience, _then_ I can see it working


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## tarannau (Mar 8, 2010)

You don't think that Stylus and multitouch controls don't beneft from specific interface designs then? Either allowances are made for bigger fingers, the stylii features are limited, or there are compromises and possible inconsistencies in handling both


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

Crispy said:


> If the stylus is only used for handwriting/drawing _and_ there are no interface elements too small for fingers _and_ there are alternative input methods in case you lose the stylus _and_ those methods work well and don't compromise the user experience, _then_ I can see it working


Well, exactly. 

Some interfaces on my iPhone would really benefit from the ablity to use a more precise stylus. As it is, some task lists are almost unusable because they stretch on for miles on-screen with their massive tick boxes.


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## Pie 1 (Mar 8, 2010)

I really like this Courier thing.

As I've said before, I would welcome a combination of stylus & multi touch - for creatives, a pen like device is still a very instinctive tool. (also, some of apps such as photo post processing apps & their finer features like rubber stamp/clone tools,  are pointless if a meaty finger is your only control.



> expected to run the mobile OS Windows Mobile 7



This is what will unfortunately probably mean I don't go near it with a 10 ft stylus. 
I hope I'm proved wrong 'cause I really want one.


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 8, 2010)

Vapourware.

That's all that needs to be said.


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## editor (Mar 8, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Vapourware.
> 
> That's all that needs to be said.


Nah, it's too far down the line and there's been too many "leaked" videos for this to be vapourware. 

The technology seems do-able, the concept looks sound and MSoft need something to hit back at the iPad with. And if they don't run with it someone else will, and I'm not bothered who makes it!


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 8, 2010)

Leaked videos mean nothing, afaik they're all CGI ones too aren't they? Not a single one of a working prototype in action?


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 8, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Not a single one of a working prototype in action?



No. I don't believe they have the hardware development in secret to launch in Q3/4 either; these things take time. As I said on the other thread, all it indicates is that MS seem to be exploring new UI ideas and product concepts, which is a good thing of course, but it's not an actual product (and it certainly wouldn't make me think twice about getting an iPad - one thing I can pretty much guarantee is that it will not be Mac compatible anyway).


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 8, 2010)

I'd love to see some decent UI in a format that isn't tied to such a god awful system as the app store. Sadly I don't think it's likely in the short term and not really probable in the medium term either.

Nor am I convinced they've got the drive to take it through. The windows 7 phone does show a hint of light at the end of the tunnel but i'm afraid MS will learn the wrong lesson: Innovate with the UI and you piss off your core customers (Office 2007).


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 9, 2010)

tarannau said:


> The whole idea of a two screen UI using a blend of finger touches and a fucking stylus promises to be made of fail, particularly given that it's from MS. Looks lovely though



Because the Nintendo DS has been a complete failure, due to it's two screen UI using either touch or stylus?



Bob_the_lost said:


> Leaked videos mean nothing, afaik they're all CGI ones too aren't they? Not a single one of a working prototype in action?



How long do you reckon it will take HTC to knock out a gadget like that, and for either MS to add splitscreen functionality to Mobile 7, or Google to add it to Chrome/Android?

Seriously, I will be gobsmacked if we do not see a device like this out this year.  Microsoft have been banging on for sometime that they're predicting the death of the desktop, and people instead using cloud based services accessed by simple, mobile devices.  This fits into their model.  Google & HTC are both about to get serious legal attacks from Apple, and will be looking eagerly for a way to show that they're not just following apple's ideas and form factors.

Well, here you have a form factor that has many clear advantages over a single large tablet form, and fits in with the goals of a number of apples competitors.  That means its only a matter of time before someone brings it to market.


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## Crispy (Mar 9, 2010)

The hardware is the easy bit.


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## editor (Mar 9, 2010)

There's already similar twin-screen devices hitting the market, although none have the elegance of the Courier - but that's only a matter of time.

I'm really excited by this book-like format. I couldn't see myself wanting to sit in a cafe tapping way on an iPad, but the Courier seems to offer a great form factor....


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> The hardware is the easy bit.



No.  One reason Apple has done so well is that hardware is an easy thing to do wrong.  It's easy to make a device that will physically do a job, but to come up with a design that is actually enjoyable to use and desirable takes a lot more work and insight.  That said, there's a lot of smart people out there, and a lot of industrial design types who'd love a chance at Jonathan Ives title.

But I guess what you're saying is that the real trick is to get the software right.  Now that's very true, but none of the tricks shown in the concept videos are actually hard to implement, or even not already available.  With multi touch monitors at work I'm already able to flip content from one panel to the next, or open a document on my desktop and have it open in a another display.  My biggest concern from the videos (and Mobile 7) is that there's quite a lot displayed that seems gimmicky rather than clean and effective.  If either MS or Google can avoid the temptation to include every possible bell and whistle, and keep the UI as coherent as possible, then there's no real reason preventing this sort of system coming out soon.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 9, 2010)

editor said:


> There's already similar twin-screen devices hitting the market, although none have the elegance of the Courier - but that's only a matter of time.
> 
> I'm really excited by this book-like format. I couldn't see myself wanting to sit in a cafe tapping way on an iPad, but the Courier seems to offer a great form factor....



If it's anywhere near as good as that demo I'll be seriously tempted by this, love the dual screen and the ability to turn it round and type like it's a laptop.


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 9, 2010)

Lemon Eddy said:


> No.  One reason Apple has done so well is that hardware is an easy thing to do wrong.  It's easy to make a device that will physically do a job, but to come up with a design that is actually enjoyable to use and desirable takes a lot more work and insight.  That said, there's a lot of smart people out there, and a lot of industrial design types who'd love a chance at Jonathan Ives title.
> .



Apple use off the shelf hardware. They just limit the options their software will run on. It's* all *software.

The ipod's hardware is/was midrange, the only way it shone was the scroll wheel. That's it and I doubt anyone would put it's amazing sucsess down to a flaky and problem prone feature like that (in early versions).

Apple macs are rarely that amazing performance wise, frequently they suck donkey balls. There have been issues with the laptops in terms of hardware, the ipod touch had a shitstorm over the screen, no one cares. It's all down to the software.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 10, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Apple macs are rarely that amazing performance wise, frequently they suck donkey balls. There have been issues with the laptops in terms of hardware, the ipod touch had a shitstorm over the screen, no one cares. It's all down to the software.



I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.

People pay a premium for Apple gear because the user experience is (generally) more pleasing than it's competitors, in terms of both software and hardware.  There's plenty of touchschreen, media playing, web browsing phones out there - but I challenge you to name one that has the same instant appeal in touch and feel?  

As for the iPod, I'm afraid you're very wrong.  The simple, industrial design  (all white perspex front, 4 backlit buttons, stainless steel back) means it's still viewed as a design icon - and the scroll wheel was a fantastic feature that really pissed all over the interface of every other mp3 player on the market at the time.

As for the software, there was very little to tell it apart from other machines.  Funnily enough they all allowed you to view by artist/album/title, they all allowed you to drill into a folder.  I'll need to do some digging, but I even recall that Apple were sued by another firm for infringing some patent they had on such a UI.

As such, I have to yet again state that the idea that the success of a product is just down to the software it runs on is absolutely wrong.  The initial wow factor has a lot to do with the initial appearance and feel of a device, and that's where apple has often got things absolutely right.    For instance, the choice of a wider/slimmer form factor for it's phones, recognising that it's more pocket friendly.  The use of a scrollwheel for flicking through long lists, single handed (far quicker than a button, and much better for telling if someone is trying to scroll quickly or slowly).  The use of accelerometers to tell the orientation of a device.  Light level sensors to control backlights...for portable devices, these issues are often more useful/distinctive for buyers than the seemingly logical main ones.  The lack of SD card support, the inability to change battery, the ridiculous lack of support for bluetooth...many factors that logically should have really put people off were actually ignored on the grounds of how good they felt in the hand, how good they looked, how well they worked on a day to day basis.


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 10, 2010)

You seem to think that the UI is down to hardware. It's not, not alone and not even for the most part.



Lemon Eddy said:


> I'm sorry, but I completely disagree.
> 
> People pay a premium for Apple gear because the user experience is (generally) more pleasing than it's competitors, in terms of both software and hardware.  There's plenty of touchschreen, media playing, web browsing phones out there - but I challenge you to name one that has the same instant appeal in touch and feel?


Software, all software.

You don't buy apple because the keyboard has a nicer layout, because it's got excellent key response, because the mouse is more sensitive ergonomic and better weighted. Media playing isn't down to hardware, (well it is but that's way over the level of this discussion and apple don't do particulary well there either), web browsing isn't down to hardware. It's not bloody hardware.

There is nothing special about the ipod's screen, it's a nice one but it's not the best res, biggest or unique in being resistive.

There is literally nothing special about apple desktops or laptops anymore, with the exception of software. Even the iphone et. al use a variant of the ARM core that everyone else uses. Even when they were using the Motorola PowerPC chip they were reliant on the software, because their hardware sucked. By the time G4 rolled out the inability to scale the PPC was so horrific that it was a joke trying to pretend they were competitive.


> As for the iPod, I'm afraid you're very wrong.  The simple, industrial design  (all white perspex front, 4 backlit buttons, stainless steel back) means it's still viewed as a design icon - and the scroll wheel was a fantastic feature that really pissed all over the interface of every other mp3 player on the market at the time.


The scroll wheel was good, no question but it's a bit big to claim that it was the scroll wheel alone that made the ipod so sucsessful.


> the initial appearance and feel of a device, and that's where apple has often got things absolutely right.


Feel? They pay attention to the ergonomics but it's the software when you try to do something that really makes or breaks it.
It's not the presence of an accelerometer that makes the iphone cool, it's the fact that "there's an app for that". 

So: Apple; no or little unique hardware (depending on model) but what's widely accepted the best UI around. Which one do you think is going to be the telling difference?

It's the software, the hardware just gets you to the race, the software wins it.

Edit: now why does this matter? MS have shown a very very hit and miss approach to software. Windows mobile sucked donkey balls, although 7 looks ok. Vista was a disgrace, although SP2 (W7) is pretty nice. The Zune was a flop and the XBox 360 UI is only mediocre imo. The demos are of slick smooth software. If the software is unreliable, it's going to bomb, if the software isn't as slick then it'll bomb and that's just assuming they ever release it, which is a big if. No if MS want to win the tablet race they need to come out with something that beats apple at it's own game and get the OS perfect. Then use it's leverage with software houses to get every possible application and remote desktop program they can ported over. That's how they beat apple, "Want to run word on your tablet? There's no app for that, buy a courier"


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Mar 10, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Then use it's leverage with software houses to get every possible application and remote desktop program they can ported over. That's how they beat apple, "Want to run word on your tablet? There's no app for that, buy a courier"



Since it appears MS are going to have this, the next Zune and phones all running the same OS this would make a lot of sense. They don't want to lose the mobile war and they're throwing a lot resources that way. It will be interesting to see how it scales across devices though.


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 10, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> There is literally nothing special about apple desktops or laptops anymore, with the exception of software.



This is such a spec-spod thing to say  "Oh look it uses components that anyone else could buy, therefore it's the same"  It just doesn't bear out in practice; design, structure, weight, balance, look, feel _are_ things that are contributory when it comes to people buying machines. (One might prefer different designs of course.)


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 10, 2010)

FridgeMagnet said:


> This is such a spec-spod thing to say  "Oh look it uses components that anyone else could buy, therefore it's the same"  It just doesn't bear out in practice; design, structure, weight, balance, look, feel _are_ things that are contributory when it comes to people buying machines. (One might prefer different designs of course.)


Guilty as charged 

Sony do good look and feel. Hell their hardware is as pretty and ergonomic as apple stuff is for the most part (and have two fucking buttons on their mice!). Apple have generally maintained excellent excellent physical design teams and don't put out many ugly computers and more importantly have a reputation for design.

But they're not gods, there's nothing that Apple have done (in terms of physical components) that the competitors haven't. Hell in many cases the competitors had done it first. Great PR, great advertising and the best UI around to back up the first two. Without that UI, which is 95% software, they wouldn't be the tech reviewer's standard to which everything else should be measured.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 10, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> You seem to think that the UI is down to hardware. It's not, not alone and not even for the most part.



No, I do not.  I said:



> People pay a premium for Apple gear because the user experience is (generally) more pleasing than it's competitors, in terms of *both software and hardware.*



And I repeat that argument.  Trying to claim it's all down to software is just out and out wrong.  It's down to a combination of both factors - and one area where Apple are well known to beat their competition is in terms of design of the hardware.  Trying to say that because they only use off the shelf components they aren't doing anything special in terms of design is just silly.  Look at all the plaudits that have been thrown at Ive and Apple, and you must - if you're honest - admit that the physical design of Apple products is one of their main selling points.

Tell you what, let me demonstrate.  Let me give you some quotes from various reviews:

Ipod touch:
"the iPod touch is still a heartbreakingly beautiful thing to hold, arguably more so than the iPhone with its even more svelte form and simply delicious weight. It's just the right size to slip into your jeans pocket and almost forget that it's there; a breathtaking feat of engineering. "


The iphone:
"I really have to mention the other area where Apple continually excels - product design. Even by Apple's own high standards, the iPhone is a beautiful looking product. The glossy black screen fascia, is offset by a solid chrome surround, while the back of the device is also metal, giving the whole thing a quality feel. Some may be put off by the 145g weight, but personally I feel that the weight adds to the solid, high quality feel of the iPhone."

And you know fine I could do this all day, linking to reviews of how beautifully designed the hardware is.  You know fine this is true.  And being blunt, I reckon you also know fine that the success of the these products is down to the combination of well designed hardware and software.


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 10, 2010)

Lemon Eddy said:


> And you know fine I could do this all day, linking to reviews of how beautifully designed the hardware is.  You know fine this is true.  And being blunt, I reckon you also know fine that the success of the these products is down to the combination of well designed hardware and software.



And I could spend all day linking to sites that have reviews of the competition saying the same things. Or worse I can pick up the first thing in the article you're quoting:



> First up, let me say that everything you may have heard about the iPhone interface being revolutionary is completely true, and then some! I honestly can't describe to you how much of a pleasure the iPhone is to use, and compared to pretty much any other mobile device, it's in a completely different league


The interface for the iphone is a touchscreen and software. That's it. The touchscreen wasn't revolutionary just well done. The software was and is brilliant and that's what made the phone and the touch really stand out. Hell why aren't people flocking after the Nexus or the HTC Hero in such huge numbers as the iPhone? The hardware is pretty much equal in most ways, often weighted away from Apple.

The software is what makes apple products really work.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 11, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> And I could spend all day linking to sites that have reviews of the competition saying the same things. Or worse I can pick up the first thing in the article you're quoting:



First, I truly doubt you will find even a fraction numbers of reviews for competing hardware that talk about them being as well designed as the products I've mentioned.  What I reckon you will find is lots of "this almost feels as good as an iPod/iPhone".  

And secondly, and more importantly, I repeat yet again that my point is purely that *it is the combination of good hardware and software that makes products such as the iPhone as succesfull as they are*.  I honestly cannot believe you actually disagree with this - you reckon if I ported iPhone OS to a device twice the size and shit in build quality it'd sell, even at half the price?  If MS come up with a good OS for this device, but it feels like shit in your hand or is awkward to hold, it will fail.


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## Bob_the_lost (Mar 11, 2010)

Lemon Eddy said:


> First, I truly doubt you will find even a fraction numbers of reviews for competing hardware that talk about them being as well designed as the products I've mentioned.  What I reckon you will find is lots of "this almost feels as good as an iPod/iPhone".
> 
> And secondly, and more importantly, I repeat yet again that my point is purely that *it is the combination of good hardware and software that makes products such as the iPhone as succesfull as they are*.  I honestly cannot believe you actually disagree with this - you reckon if I ported iPhone OS to a device twice the size and shit in build quality it'd sell, even at half the price?  If MS come up with a good OS for this device, but it feels like shit in your hand or is awkward to hold, it will fail.


Volume means squat, iPhones are popular and well marketed, there's going to be a lot of reviews.
First review i found for the Nexus one:


> the shape and size of the phone is absolutely fantastic; even though the surface of the device houses a 3.7-inch display, the handset generally feels trimmer and more svelte than an iPhone, Hero, and certainly the Droid.


So: A better form factor. The Nexus one has a camera that spanks the iphone, hell virtually everything does. The 3G chip is possibly slightly better there too. Battery life is better  and it's removable.

The iPhone doesn't lead in hardware at all, not quality nor form factor and definitely not components. To say that good hardware is required is so obvious it's not worth doing. However you've failed to show that the hardware is anything above the norm for premium end products, while we all know that the software is.


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## Crispy (Mar 11, 2010)

this is one of the more ridiculous arguments on this thread, tbf


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## tarannau (Mar 11, 2010)

I know. It's about the integration and whole package rather than a dispassionate analysis of hardware ve software as a driver of success.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 11, 2010)

Fair 'nuff.  I apologise for the hijack, and will give up on trying to convince Bob that Apple are good at design.


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## editor (Mar 11, 2010)

I don't give a fuck about this hardware/form factor argument, I just want the Courier to be as advertised and sat in my lap pronto. 
I fucking love the idea of being able to sketch on the thing and two screens in folding book format = sizeable win.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 11, 2010)

editor said:
			
		

> I don't give a fuck about this hardware/form factor argument, I just want the Courier to be as advertised and sat in my lap pronto.
> I fucking love the idea of being able to sketch on the thing and two screens in folding book format = sizeable win.



This times 1000!


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 11, 2010)

Bloke I was just talking to in the pub, who works for Microsoft at the moment, reckons the Courier has two A4 panels that fold out, and that he's held prototypes.

He was quite hammered mind you.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 11, 2010)

FridgeMagnet said:
			
		

> Bloke I was just talking to in the pub, who works for Microsoft at the moment, reckons the Courier has two A4 panels that fold out, and that he's held prototypes.
> 
> He was quite hammered mind you.



A4? Seems a bit on the big side..?


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## FridgeMagnet (Mar 11, 2010)

Well that's what I thought. I would doubt he was entirely making it up but he may have seen some other prototype.


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## Lemon Eddy (Mar 11, 2010)

FridgeMagnet said:


> Bloke I was just talking to in the pub, who works for Microsoft at the moment, reckons the Courier has two A4 panels that fold out, and that he's held prototypes.









May not be the technological advance we were hoping for, lads.


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## editor (Mar 31, 2010)

Every time I read a bit more about the Courier, the more I want it.

For all the hype about the iPad, this is one massively innovative concept that people are getting _very_ excited about.

Even if it turns out to be Microsoft vapourware, the good news is that so much has been leaked about the project already, I've no doubt that a ton of knock-offs are being assembled right now. 








> And while the iPad represents a new device category, Apple is counting on the familiarity of the iPhone and iPod touch to flatten its already narrow learning curve. The Courier videos, on the other hand, describe a device that is all about productivity, a pursuit in which Microsoft has a storied and profitable heritage. However, rather than the eye-glazing grids of text one might find in an Excel spreadsheet or Access table, Courier presents a digital reinvention of the scrapbook. Its "infinite journal" provides a pasteboard for collecting digital inspirations scavenged from the device's camera, and contributions from others on shared pages.
> 
> And it does this in high style. The Courier user interface is a showcase of gestures, pen input, and novel user interface conventions such as docking items in a virtual spine for visual copy and paste or drawing a rectangle around a list of items to turn them into a sticky "to do" note. The Courier concept is so captivating that it's easy to overlook the question as to who the product is for apart from artists and designers. Whereas previous Microsoft products have called upon IT to make it work, Courier may evoke those words from Tim Gunn. We've likely not seen all that that Courier can do, but one way to make the product more broadly relevant to those who must apply creativity to create some kind of mind-mapping or outlining capability.



http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/30/switched-on-courier-courts-the-creative/


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2010)

It's almost a bit holy Grail like, reckon it'll disappoint but until then we can dream...


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## stupid dogbot (Mar 31, 2010)

You're just as bad as the Apple fanbois.


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## editor (Mar 31, 2010)

stupid dogbot said:


> You're just as bad as the Apple fanbois.


Hardly. The enthusiasm is for the _product_, not the _brand_.

See the difference?


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## stupid dogbot (Mar 31, 2010)

editor said:


> Hardly. The enthusiasm is for the _product_, not the _brand_.
> 
> See the difference?



Jesus, lighten up, Mr Sneery.


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## Kid_Eternity (Mar 31, 2010)

stupid dogbot said:


> You're just as bad as the Apple fanbois.


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## Pie 1 (Mar 31, 2010)

stupid dogbot said:


> Jesus, lighten up, Mr Sneery.



No chance!
Having to maintain strict double standards is a very serious business, don't you know


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## editor (Mar 31, 2010)

Pie 1 said:


> Having to maintain strict double standards is a very serious business, don't you know


What 'double standards' are these please, Mr Shit-stirrer?


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## elbows (Apr 1, 2010)

Im not sure if Microsoft will make one of these devices themselves because unlike Apple they tend to work with hardware partners on a range of platforms, and Im not sure they would want to spoil any of those relationships by competing themselves. They may well develop the concept and suitable OS platform, but then it will be down to others to make it happen. This has some advantages and some drawbacks, and Ive no idea if it will happen in this case, we still havent seen quite what the new gen of tablets to compete with Apple will actually be like, such as that prototype that Steve Balmer was waving around months ago. 

I am a fan of the concept of having 2 screens that open like a book.


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## gabi (Apr 1, 2010)

editor said:


> What 'double standards' are these please, Mr Shit-stirrer?


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## elbows (Apr 1, 2010)

On further reflection I think the price point that Apple have set for the ipad (& netbook pricing in general) will slow down the tablet competition, especially a 2-screen affair like this courier concept which I will assume cannot be delivered at the right price point for some time to come.


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 10, 2010)

This is , gives you an idea of how possible the courier is...

Was talking with someone today about the iPad, they were saying it looked cool, got them to take a look at the courier tech demo and they were literally blown away saying they're not gonna bother with the iPad and wait for the courier. At this point I tried to dampen expectations by mentioning it's a demo and doesn't exist as such just yet...but still...


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## sunnysidedown (Apr 10, 2010)

editor said:


> Hardly. The enthusiasm is for the _product_, not the _brand_.
> 
> See the difference?



speaking as someone who has used Apple products for the past 20 years I would no-doubt get called a 'cool-aid drinking Apple fanboy' by some, I don't _yet_ own any Apple branded underpants, maybe I should get some.

On topic:

elbows makes a good point, what is the supposed _conceptual_ price for this?


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## editor (Apr 10, 2010)

sunnysidedown said:


> speaking as someone who has used Apple products for the past 20 years I would no-doubt get called a 'cool-aid drinking Apple fanboy' by some, I don't _yet_ own any Apple branded underpants, maybe I should get some.


I've no idea what a 'cool-aid drinking Apple fanboy' is or why you're posting up this irrelevant nonsense on a thread about Microsoft's Courier. 

Back on topic, HTC have just filed this patent. 





http://www.techradar.com/news/computing/htc-courier-dual-screen-patent-appears-682301

Some interesting related concepts here too: (I see KE has already posted this too)


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## sunnysidedown (Apr 10, 2010)

editor said:


> I've no idea what a 'cool-aid drinking Apple fanboy' is or why you're posting up this irrelevant nonsense on a thread about Microsoft's Courier.



it was a reply to _your_ post cheeky chops! 

what would you expect the price to be for this device? roughly?


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## editor (Apr 10, 2010)

sunnysidedown said:


> it was a reply to _your_ post cheeky chops!
> 
> what would you expect the price to be for this device? roughly?


I've no idea, but possibly somewhere comparable with the more expensive iPads, with cheaper variants after.


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## elbows (Apr 12, 2010)

A NY Times article (that I also mention in the ipad thread) has some stuff about the Courier, not a lot mind, facts will be elusive for some time to come I expect:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/12/technology/12slate.html



> But Microsoft engineers have concerns about the battery power needed to keep the two screens going, these people said. And internally the company is struggling to identify the right market. At first the idea was to market the Courier for designers and architects, but lately the company is thinking of a broader market of consumers and so would include e-books, magazines and other media content on the device.
> 
> Microsoft engineers have talked about getting the Courier out by early 2011, though no firm decision has been made to sell the product.


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## editor (Apr 29, 2010)

Catastrophe!
The Courier's a goner.
http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/29/microsoft-confirms-kills-courier-in-one-fell-swoop/


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## Kanda (Apr 30, 2010)

Bob_the_lost said:


> Vapourware.
> 
> That's all that needs to be said.





editor said:


> Nah, it's too far down the line and there's been too many "leaked" videos for this to be vapourware.
> 
> The technology seems do-able, the concept looks sound and MSoft need something to hit back at the iPad with. And if they don't run with it someone else will, and I'm not bothered who makes it!


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## Kanda (Apr 30, 2010)

HP Slate having issues too:http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/29/hewlett-packard-to-kill-windows-7-tablet-project/

Didn't someone have a bet on that one ^^


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## themonkeyman (Apr 30, 2010)

editor said:


> Catastrophe!
> The Courier's a goner.
> http://www.engadget.com/2010/04/29/microsoft-confirms-kills-courier-in-one-fell-swoop/



bugger, was looking forward to this.  I would have really used it a lot


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## tarannau (Apr 30, 2010)

Blimey, there must be some face-eggage on here. Predictions of vapourware and fatal UI/who to market to flaws seem to have come true

Seems strange that everyone's letting Apple have a clear tilt at building up a big old lead in the tablet market.


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## editor (Apr 30, 2010)

Kanda said:


>


Like I said in that quote, "if they don't run with it someone else will, and I'm not bothered  who makes it."

I've no interest in a walled garden iPad device that comes with no built in USB, no SD card slot, no ability to hook up external HDs and all the usual Apple restrictions, so I'm happy  to wait for someone else to knock out a Courier-like device.

In the meantime I'll keep on using my netbook - and as for HP, I'd suggest that their acquisition of Palm may have a big impact on future slate products.


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## Kanda (Apr 30, 2010)

Why are you bringing up iPad in a thread about the courier??

(You have a go at us bringing up Palm in Apple threads)


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## stupid dogbot (Apr 30, 2010)

Now _there's_ a surprise!


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## editor (Apr 30, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Why are you bringing up iPad in a thread about the courier??
> 
> (You have a go at us bringing up Palm in Apple threads)


Try looking at the post above mine, trollboy.


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## Kanda (Apr 30, 2010)

I expected you to pick him up on it tbh... 

Not a troll, just a little joke.


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## tarannau (Apr 30, 2010)

No fair you two. Plenty of mentions of Apple on p1 of this thread, including from the Ed.

Besides I mentioned the competitive situation briefly, not slagged off another alternative based on my often stated personal requirements (again). It's like groundhog day about no cut and paste on the iphone and a list of other assorted gripes.


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## themonkeyman (Apr 30, 2010)

editor said:


> I've no interest in a walled garden iPad device that comes with no built in USB, no SD card slot, no ability to hook up external HDs and all the usual Apple restrictions, so I'm happy  to wait for someone else to knock out a Courier-like device.



same here, it's a shame though, the concept was awesome


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## elbows (Apr 30, 2010)

Its just not possible to make a 2-screen device of that sort at a price-point that even vaguely fits the market at this stage.


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## elbows (Apr 30, 2010)

This news may be even bigger:



> Hewlett-Packard has killed off its much ballyhooed Windows 7 tablet computer, says a source who’s been briefed on the matter.
> 
> The device was first unveiled by Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer at CES 2010 in January and was supposed to hit the market in mid 2010. But our source tells us that HP is not satisfied with Windows 7 as a tablet operating system and has terminated the project (something CrunchGear mentioned months ago).
> 
> HP may also be abandoning Intel-based hardware for its slate lineup simply because it’s too power hungry. That would also rule out Windows 7 as an operating system.



Read more: http://techcrunch.com/2010/04/29/hewlett-packard-to-kill-windows-7-tablet-project/#ixzz0mZhCr5eO

Not at all surprising from a technical point of view, and considering HP buying Palm they now have an alternative.


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## Crispy (Apr 30, 2010)

Good. Windows is completely unsuitable for a tablet. WebOS is a much much better fit.


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## Kid_Eternity (Apr 30, 2010)

Lame...


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 30, 2010)

Shame


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## elbows (Apr 30, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Shame



Nah, think of all the people who would have wasted their money on another genration of painful windows/intel tablets and then been let down.

Even for people that hate Apple, they have been useful in demonstrating that the world can do better with technologies that exist today.


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## editor (Apr 30, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Good. Windows is completely unsuitable for a tablet. WebOS is a much much better fit.


Yep. webOS could be sensational on a tablet.


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## skyscraper101 (Apr 30, 2010)

elbows said:


> Nah, think of all the people who would have wasted their money on another genration of painful windows/intel tablets and then been let down.
> 
> Even for people that hate Apple, they have been useful in demonstrating that the world can do better with technologies that exist today.



Well maybe. I'm no Apple hater or Windows lover. I'd just like to see something that does a whole range of useful tasks, and something that preferably communicates with a PC/Mac seemlessly. Thats the thing with the iPad, I've no doubt its purposely designed to communicate smmothly with OSX, even if its not OSX itself. If Microsoft could do something which does similar with Windows then there'd be more of a direct comparison.

Perhaps Google will mimic Apple and create a pad device which emulates much of Andriod and synchs with your PC. I just can't see it taking off unless it successfully captures the business market for emails, documents and presentations, which is why I'd hoped the courier would happen.


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## FridgeMagnet (Apr 30, 2010)

There's no difference between syncing the iPhone/Touch/Pad family with Windows and syncing it with OS X. Well, obviously it syncs to different calendar/address book/etc programs but that's it.


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## elbows (Apr 30, 2010)

Yeah I dont quite get the syncing point either. The email, address book & calendar on OS X are not as feature-rich and enterprise-ready as Outlook. Support for Microsoft Exchange is generally what business needs on that front, and the iPhone already makes a reasonable job of that.

What exactly will Google do a better job of syncing with? Their approach is all about the cloud, they are more interested in getting people to use online software instead of ms office, eg Google Docs. Im not entirely sold on all the hype about the cloud, but things are certainly moving in that general direction, to what extent remains unclear.

I would expect that most tablet devices will get apps that enable office-compatible presentation software stuff.


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## editor (May 16, 2011)

Well, no Courier like device has emerged yet (although the HTC Flyer sort of comes close) but I thought I'd revive this thread as I gave a talk a couple of days ago and ended up doing an 'after talk' with some people about technology/tablets and the like. 

I showed them the promo for the doomed Courier and every one of them - including one or two iPad owners - said that it was *exactly* what they wanted and they'd gladly pay a fair premium for the device.

So on the remote chance any influential manufacturers are reading this - can we have a Courier-like device now please?


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## Kid_Eternity (May 16, 2011)

Well said brother!


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## editor (Nov 1, 2011)

The inside story of why Courier was scrapped is being released. Turns out it was in a fairly advanced state of development.

It still looks incredible today.



> "We were on the cusp of something really big," said one Courier team member.
> In late 2009, before the iPad had launched, the Courier team recognized the market for tablets was ready to explode. It laid out a detailed engineering schedule and made the case to Microsoft's top brass that Courier could be a revolutionary device that would define a new product category. The team put forward a vision that Microsoft could create a new market rather than chasing down a leader or defending an established product.
> http://news.cnet.com/8301-10805_3-2...y-of-how-microsoft-killed-its-courier-tablet/



And some pics to reminsice over:

















And here's the videos for old time's sake:


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## elbows (Nov 1, 2011)

Interesting. I still think that they would have had trouble getting the right balance of weight, battery, performance & price, especially given the 2 screens. And Im not convinced that the software side would have been completely fit for purpose either, at least not to start with. But the article suggests that it wasn't any of these things that killed it, it was Microsofts desire to stick to one kind of Windows OS, and to err on the side of protecting their Exchange & Office products. That Bill Gates originally thought the XBox should run windows says it all.


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## editor (Jun 10, 2015)

It stil looks like a pretty damn exciting concept.


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## Kid_Eternity (Jun 17, 2015)

Agreed! Damn shame it was Microsoft that had it...


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## editor (Oct 27, 2015)

Oooh another tease of what we might have had...



> In David Pierce’s Wired exclusive, where Surface VP Panay laid out all the behind-the-scenes facts of trying to keep the Surface Book as secret as possible, he also took a quick detour talking about the now-alive-only-in-myth Surface Mini:
> 
> One night about two years ago, Panos Panay couldn’t sleep. This happens a lot, waking up in the middle of the night with loud thoughts rattling around in his head. Panay popped off the pillow, reached for his new Surface Pen and his old Surface Mini, and wrote himself an email. (He loves the Mini, a small tablet his team built but never shipped. “It was like a Moleskine,” he says. “It was awesome.”)
> 
> ...


Funny how the stylus is now back in vogue too.


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## editor (Jul 24, 2017)

Ooh - we're getting closer!


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## elbows (Jul 24, 2017)

editor said:


> Ooh - we're getting closer!



I wish we were, I really do. I would love clam-shell type devices, be they tablet or phone, that once unfolded had a single screen. But for years now I see prototypes based on current flexible screen tech and neither I or manufacturers seem too convinced that such stuff is really ripe to be used in viable products that will fly off the shelves. The compromises involved are currently at a weird stage, eg its so much harder to get the screen to fold on itself (dont think anyone has solved this stuff at all yet, only tried to work around it) so you get weird devices like the one in that video.

Someone might come up with a good use for the tech in its present form, but it seems like quite a challenge and the years are flying by. Curved and flexible screen manufacturers would I'm sure love someone to come up with something good so they could make a lot of money, but it looks like this is much easier said than done with the way the tech is at the moment. And I'd be quite amazed if such a winning product ended up having much to do with the courier type device this thread is about, I just dont think we are anywhere close to getting that sort of foldability in screens. I'm not trying to be negative, I want such devices, but weird progress in the bendable screen prototype sector so far contains nothing that helps me to have even a wild guess at timescales for a screen that could fold straight over on itself whilst meeting the required spec and durability.


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## editor (Jul 2, 2018)

It's back! Possibly. 







Microsoft has been dreaming of a pocketable dual-screen Surface device for years


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## elbows (Jul 2, 2018)

Yeah I thought of you when I saw the rumours about this device firing up again (I saw it on macrumors of all places lol).

I really hope it happens, though I still suspect the foldable screen technology is not quite ripe yet (getting there though, slowly).


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## UnderAnOpenSky (Jul 3, 2018)

Seeing that Samsung can do clever stuff like edge screens, does it need to fold. Or could you just have two screens next to each other with no bezel? Sounds more achievable.


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## elbows (Oct 2, 2019)

I'm pretty happy that its back in the form of the Surface Neo, and that its two screens rather than a bendable nightmare waiting to happen.


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## elbows (Oct 2, 2019)

Although for many scenarios I expect their new phone with the same approach hits a much sweeter size point.

Anyway I havent linked to any news articles or whatever because I only just heard about this stuff and went off half-cocked. I havent even looked at the spec yet.


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## elbows (Oct 2, 2019)

Hmm sounds like there will be a year+ wait for that tablet, and being Microsoft they are doing a special version of Windows 10 for it. And I dont usually trust them to fully pull off everything correctly on the OS/UI side of things. So I'll just have to wait to see if they can prove me wrong. Would like to think that they've been toying with the concept for so long that they have some great ideas, but I have my doubts.


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