# Explaining dismissal to potential employers?



## cdg (May 14, 2013)

I've got to start looking for a new job after being dismissed for my previous job. If the subject of how I came to be unemployed arose how could I get around telling them? I'm willing to risk blatantly lying.

I don't need to be told I shouldn't be lying to a potential employer I just need advice on how to do it/what to tell them. I was dismissed from last job for two instances of not following absence notification procedures btw.


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## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

you'll have to do better than that.

i'd say that you left as there was a clash of personalities, with you being the clashee.


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

.


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> you'll have to do better than that.
> 
> i'd say that you left as there was a clash of personalities, with you being the clashee.


 
Are you being facetious?


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## trashpony (May 14, 2013)

how long were you at the last job?


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## tar1984 (May 14, 2013)

I've had this problem, I just said I left because I wasn't happy there.  Apparently when they request a reference the old company just provides the dates you worked there, not the reasons for leaving?


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

trashpony said:


> how long were you at the last job?


 
two and a half years.


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## UhOhSeven (May 14, 2013)

There's nothing to stop a prospective employer picking up the phone to call your old boss 'off the record' -- this is quite common practice. If you tell any porkies about why you left, you'll almost certainly get busted. Difficult situation.


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## Gnome Chompsky (May 14, 2013)

cdg said:


> I've got to start looking for a new job after being dismissed for my previous job. If the subject of how I came to be unemployed arose how could I get around telling them? I'm willing to risk blatantly lying.
> 
> I don't need to be told I shouldn't be lying to a potential employer I just need advice on how to do it/what to tell them. I was dismissed from last job for two instances of not following absence notification procedures btw.


Contact your former employer and ask them to sign an agreement of non-disclosure. Then you can say you were on a fixed-term contract when prospective employers ask you why you left your previous job.


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## sim667 (May 14, 2013)

Open ended temporary contract


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## cdg (May 14, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Open ended temporary contract


 
Good.


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## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Open ended temporary contract


zero hour contract perhaps?


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## sim667 (May 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> zero hour contract perhaps?


 
Anything will do it really. OP's main problem with be reference, should have negotiated non-disclosure at their hearing.


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## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Anything will do it really. OP's main problem with be reference, should have negotiated non-disclosure at their hearing.


i will bear that in mind when i leave my job


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## sim667 (May 14, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> i will bear that in mind when i leave my job


 
Its only really an issue if you're getting fired/disciplined. If you're leaving just because you want a new job there's no need.


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## Pickman's model (May 14, 2013)

sim667 said:


> Its only really an issue if you're getting fired/disciplined. If you're leaving just because you want a new job there's no need.


i gathered that.


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## Puddy_Tat (May 14, 2013)

tar1984 said:


> Apparently when they request a reference the old company just provides the dates you worked there, not the reasons for leaving?


 
Depends on the organisation.  Some will just provide dates, some will go into more detail.

The idea that "it's illegal to give a bad reference" is something of an urban myth, although one that a few employers believe.

It is illegal* to give a reference which is untrue and / or malicious, but if someone was sacked, it's not illegal to say so.

A lot of employers now prefer to avoid the risk of any future legal action and do just give dates, it's also increasingly common only to give information that is fact (e.g. number of days off sick) rather than opinion (e.g. whether you were any good at your job)

* - in my opinion, i'm not a lawyer or anything resembling one.

The non-disclosure thing - I don't see how you can ask for this retrospectively, and to some extent, it tends only to happen when the (soon to be ex-) employee has some bargaining power, e.g. where there's a compromise agreement which rules out any unfair dismissal claim. 

If someone was bang to rights and got dismissed for misconduct, and then requested a non disclosure agreement, I think the employer would be within their rights to say "bollocks" or words to that effect.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

I don't think a previous employer would sign up to a non-disclosure agreement after you've left, and even if they did you might find yourself constrained in other ways with (for example) a very restrictive covenant thrown in for good measure. They would perhaps rely on you not reading it or not getting legal advice. I see no advantage to them in having such an agreement, and think it's incredibly unlikely this would happen.

And, with respect cdg follow the procedures next time. Don't hand an employer an excuse, however tiny, to get rid of you.


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## cesare (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> I've got to start looking for a new job after being dismissed for my previous job. If the subject of how I came to be unemployed arose how could I get around telling them? I'm willing to risk blatantly lying.
> 
> I don't need to be told I shouldn't be lying to a potential employer I just need advice on how to do it/what to tell them. I was dismissed from last job for two instances of not following absence notification procedures btw.


How long ago were you dismissed?


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

cesare said:


> How long ago were you dismissed?


 
Was given 2 weeks notice which ended on 10th may.


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> And, with respect cdg follow the procedures next time. Don't hand an employer an excuse, however tiny, to get rid of you.


 
Ye. There had been other problems last year and I had managed to get myself personal problems under wraps, but then this came up literally within weeks of my previous warning expiring. My own fault, I know that.


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## cesare (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> Was given 2 weeks notice which ended on 10th may.


That's a bit harsh - to sack you after two instances of not following absence procedure, after 2.5 years service. Were the absences because of a particular medical condition/disability? Did you appeal against the dismissal? I'm asking because there might be a way of you negotiating with the old employer now if they've not done this properly.


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

I've got an appeal meeting tomorrow. I think they have got themselves covered. I did a thread here:

http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/friend-dismissed.309538/


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## cesare (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> I've got an appeal meeting tomorrow. I think they have got themselves covered. I did a thread here:
> 
> http://www.urban75.net/forums/threads/friend-dismissed.309538/


Ah! Have you got someone to accompany you? This is your chance to make them think they're in for a long and costly (to them) fight (whether or not you've got that intention). They might reinstate you, but if not the appeal hearing will pave the way for you to protect your self re references etc.


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## existentialist (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> Are you being facetious?


I think it's good advice. You're leapfrogging over the embarrassing problem by offering a credible explanation as to why it happened. 

Be ready with a plausible explanation for the nature of the personality clash and why it's not going to be a problem with the new employer, though.


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

existentialist said:


> I think it's good advice. You're leapfrogging over the embarrassing problem by offering a credible explanation as to why it happened.
> 
> Be ready with a plausible explanation for the nature of the personality clash and why it's not going to be a problem with the new employer, though.


 
I didn't grasp PM's post, I thought he was taking the piss initially. I could say we clashed over dangerous working conditions, which isn't exactly a lie.


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

cesare said:


> Ah! Have you got someone to accompany you? This is your chance to make them think they're in for a long and costly (to them) fight (whether or not you've got that intention). They might reinstate you, but if not the appeal hearing will pave the way for you to protect your self re references etc.


 
Not got anybody to accompany me no. Yes, I've been thinking of ways I could hint at tribunals etc, which I am willing to go through with btw.


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## cesare (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> Not got anybody to accompany me no. Yes, I've been thinking of ways I could hint at tribunals etc, which I am willing to go through with btw.



So you've done all your preparation cos of the other thread?  If they've taken a bit of a chance on it, thinking you'll just go quietly ... They might not be expecting you to be prepared. Things like being ready to take notes of what they say, asking them to repeat so you can write it down, asking for a copy of the notes they've taken for themselves before you leave, asking for a break if you need one. Having a list of questions written out before you go, so you can write in their response as you go (this saves you some time writing too). These are all things that send a message that it's not going to be easy for them - but without doing anything as blatant as threats, which doesn't work (at this stage). Pile on the "I can't believe you've done this right in the middle of me getting treatment for this very serious medical condition" and "it's obvious there was a trend of improvement, were you just looking for an excuse to dismiss me?" and "to what extent did you take into account my mitigating circumstances" and "is this the way you treat everyone or just me with my illness" etc


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## Teaboy (May 15, 2013)

Honestly, I'd fess up bit spin it in a way to make it not sound too bad.

Say something along the lines 'At that point in my life I was having a few family problems and I fell foul of a very strict absence policy, there was no slack in the system at all.  I'm glad to say now that all those problems are resolved and I understand the importance of policies etc'.

Most employers are human and recognise people have shit from time to time, if that alone puts them off employing you then you've probably dodged a bullet anyway.  I've always been pretty honest in interviews and its always served me well.


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## equationgirl (May 15, 2013)

cdg said:


> Ye. There had been other problems last year and I had managed to get myself personal problems under wraps, but then this came up literally within weeks of my previous warning expiring. My own fault, I know that.


I still think it was way too harsh though. Completely unreasonable over something for which there were valid reasons. I'm sorry you lost your job but I am glad you don't work for such a bunch of jobsworth arseholes anymore.

Sorry, my post last night was probably a bit blunt


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## cdg (May 15, 2013)

equationgirl said:


> I still think it was way too harsh though. Completely unreasonable over something for which there were valid reasons. I'm sorry you lost your job but I am glad you don't work for such a bunch of jobsworth arseholes anymore.
> 
> Sorry, my post last night was probably a bit blunt


 
That's OK.

Actually the HQ and the branch that I work for are in different parts of the country, the boss at my branch is a nice guy and an old school veggy anarchist to boot He often regales me with his tails of being friends with chumbawumba and seeing Bjork in concert before she was famous, as well as having anarcho punk pop quizzes, especially when very busy

Anyway, meeting tomorrow. I'll keep yous updated.


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

Bah, it didn't go very well.


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## cesare (May 16, 2013)

cdg said:


> Bah, it didn't go very well.


Ach. What happened (if you don't mind posting it)?


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

Well basically, I signed an induction form 2 and a bit years ago which says I was informed of procedures. I could have spat on the cocky bastard when he showed me it My response was that I was told to read my staff handbook and contract and then tick and sign the induction form because all I needed to know was in them.


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## cesare (May 16, 2013)

cdg said:


> Well basically, I signed an induction form 2 and a bit years ago which says I was informed of procedures. I could have spat on the cocky bastard when he showed me it My response was that I was told to read my staff handbook and contract and then tick and sign the induction form because all I needed to know was in them.


Did you go over that stuff I mentioned yesterday, trend of improvement etc?


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

Ye, which he acknowledged and gave credit. He said he needs to clarify a few things but I can't see him finding in my favour after my job position has already been taken.


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## Boris Sprinkler (May 16, 2013)

A tricky one, I would give as much detail as you are prepared to give without making yourself look bad. 

As an example a manager at my company was fired the day after starting because he failed to mention he had previously been fired for gross misconduct in a previous role at our parent company. His fault, he failed to mention it. On the plus side I did get his new iPhone.


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## cesare (May 16, 2013)

cdg said:


> Ye, which he acknowledged and gave credit. He said he needs to clarify a few things but I can't see him finding in my favour after my job position has already been taken.


Your job's been taken! So if they don't reinstate you, you'd go down the route of "well the outcome of the appeal hearing was clearly predetermined". I hope they do reinstate you but if not there's loads here to make them uncomfortable with and open up the possibility of some kind of deal.


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## Corax (May 16, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> Honestly, I'd fess up bit spin it in a way to make it not sound too bad.
> 
> Say something along the lines 'At that point in my life I was having a few family problems and I fell foul of a very strict absence policy, there was no slack in the system at all. I'm glad to say now that all those problems are resolved and I understand the importance of policies etc'.


I was thinking similarly.  Human error, fell victim to a heartless machine.  I may even finish it off with a line about how disappointed I was about it, because "I was really delivering tangible results for them and I was excited to see how far I could take that" or some other such bullshit.


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

cesare said:


> Your job's been taken! So if they don't reinstate you, you'd go down the route of "well the outcome of the appeal hearing was clearly predetermined". I hope they do reinstate you but if not there's loads here to make them uncomfortable with and open up the possibility of some kind of deal.


 
lol, you are ace. Like a crusader for disgruntled employees. Can I drop you a pm for a bit of advice when I get the decision?


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

I've just thought as well. The job was listed on the jobcentre site a week before I was given notice. Should they be doing that without knowing if I was going to appeal?


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## cesare (May 16, 2013)

cdg said:


> I've just thought as well. The job was listed on the jobcentre site a week before I was given notice. Should they be doing that without knowing if I was going to appeal?


 
That's brilliant! Well, not brilliant cos they've sacked you of course. Brilliant in the sense that even the outcome of the dismissal hearing was pre-determined  Did you take a photo of it? Or some other way of proving it?

Of course, pm, no problem


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## cdg (May 16, 2013)

No, bummer But the fact is they filled my position prior to my notice ending... I was on garden leave during notice btw.


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## cesare (May 16, 2013)

cdg said:


> No, bummer But the fact is they filled my position prior to my notice ending... I was on garden leave during notice btw.


You could ask someone in the jobcentre for a copy of the ad I suppose


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## seeformiles (May 22, 2013)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Depends on the organisation. Some will just provide dates, some will go into more detail.


 
IME a previous employer only providing dates of employment with no detail is code for "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"


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## Pingu (May 22, 2013)

seeformiles said:


> IME a previous employer only providing dates of employment with no detail is code for "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"


 
you also have to be careful when saying nice things just in case the person changes tack and turns into a proper cunt at the now company. cue call "you fucking said he was a hard working self starter..."


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## trashpony (May 22, 2013)

seeformiles said:


> IME a previous employer only providing dates of employment with no detail is code for "If you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all"


It depends on the company. I've worked in places where they're so scared of this:


Pingu said:


> you also have to be careful when saying nice things just in case the person changes tack and turns into a proper cunt at the now company. cue call "you fucking said he was a hard working self starter..."


that they won't say anything over and above employment dates and number of sick days ie facts, not opinion. It's just accepted that's the industry standard


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