# Richard Herring's Objective



## Mation (Nov 8, 2011)

Brilliant start to this (the second?) series, with a programme on golliwogs.

All sorts of daft things I've encountered, such as the claims that "they're _not_ gollywogs - they're _gollys_", "they're not meant to be black people" and "it wasn't racist then", are covered very well indeed 

On iPlayer here.


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## xenon (Nov 8, 2011)

Yeah, was good. Alerted to this from his podcast with Andrew Collin(g)s. They had a little chat on that about the Jervais mong thing too.


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## Mation (Nov 8, 2011)

xenon said:


> They had a little chat on that about the Jervais mong thing too.


What was that?


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## xenon (Nov 8, 2011)

Not sure, don't use Twitter much. I think Herring had a go at him over his use of the word mong and got a bit of flack from Jervais' fans. Accusing him of jumping on band wagon and so on. Despite the fact Herring's work with Scope for the last few years and generally spoken up against mockery of disabled peple. He and Collins were just chatting about the stupidity of denying the word's origin and those tryign to defend it as it's usage being now removed from that meaning.


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## OneStrike (Nov 8, 2011)

Herring won the 'mong' debate, Gervais accepts he was wrong and now calls people twongs and such like (not sure Herring gets all the credit, but he was probably the most famous and relevant sleb on board).

eta, the programme has passed me by, will dig it out.


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## Mation (Nov 8, 2011)

xenon said:


> Not sure, don't use Twitter much. I think Herring had a go at him over his use of the word mong and got a bit of flack from Jervais' fans. Accusing him of jumping on band wagon and so on. Despite the fact Herring's work with Scope for the last few years and generally spoken up against mockery of disabled peple. He and Collins were just chatting about the stupidity of denying the word's origin and those tryign to defend it as it's usage being now removed from that meaning.


Ah. yes, I know a few people who don't really see a problem with the word. Granted, they genuinely thought of it as a 'context-free' insult, but they can't quite get the hang of stopping now they know where it comes from. No ill-intention, but still not good enough.


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## fogbat (Nov 8, 2011)

Mation said:


> Brilliant start to this (the second?) series, with a programme on golliwogs.
> 
> All sorts of daft things I've encountered, such as the claims that "they're _not_ gollywogs - they're _gollys_", "they're not meant to be black people" and "it wasn't racist then", are covered very well indeed
> 
> On iPlayer here.



Cheers - big Herring fan


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

But for me, the truth came out a bit. I've never owned a Gollywog, i never said i have been "Wogged" (Robbed) i have never said called anyone a "wog" even when the word was current (70's etc.) Herring, a Middle-class countryside Boy where no ethnics lived, who did do those things and now feeling guilty is lecturing all other white people about being "Racist", I think his anti-racism is just to expunge his personal guilt, it annoys me.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> Herring, a Middle-class countryside Boy where no ethnics lived, who did do those things and now feeling guilty is lecturing all other white people about being "Racist", I think his anti-racism is just to expunge his personal guilt, it annoys me.



He admits his guilt and its a whole series about objects that cause controversy - I don't think there's anything wrong with acknowledging that something isn't right and is something we should be moving away from.


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

But he shouldn't be lecturing people who have never done those things and taking a high minded attitude to them, he did it, not us/me. I think he is a bit of a Wanker.

He is saying "you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't this.." "Mate, you are the only one who was doing it".


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> He is saying "you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't this.." "Mate, you are the only one who was doing it".



I think _*was *_is definitely an important word there.


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

I feel lectured to and I'm thinking he did it not me and don't fucking lecture me you little middle class twat, him telling people they are not allowed to do something that only he was doing in the first place.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

It wasn't just him, though, was it?


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

I liked the info and knowledge and the history even looked it up on the internet for more info I just didn't like that reveal bit when he admitted he owned a Gollywog and he used the word Wogged I thought now we know the real motivation guilty little richard had. he shouldn't tar all people with the same brush.


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

8ball said:


> It wasn't just him, though, was it?


I don't think a lot working-class people children owned one probably not that many middle-class people/children did either, he did though.


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## killer b (Nov 8, 2011)

it was on radio 4.

R4's core audience is guilty middle class types who used to own golliwogs. i expect the programme was very relevant to a huge number of it's listeners...


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I don't think a lot working-class people children owned one probably not that many middle-class people/children did either, he did though.



They were very common in the 70s and 80s.


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## killer b (Nov 8, 2011)

not that common by the 1980s ime. although i did have that 'little black sambo' book.


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

8ball said:


> They were very common in the 70s and 80s.


Honestly? I don't remember any, only that jam jar robinson thing going on, don't know if they still use the image.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

killer b said:


> not that common by the 1980s ime. although i did have that 'little black sambo' book.



I think they tailed off through the 80s as kids toys, though the Robinson's jam logo kept the imagery fresh enough in the school playground.  The only person I know who ever mentioned a 'little black sambo' book was extremely posh...


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> Honestly? I don't remember any, only that jam jar robinson thing going on, don't know if they still use the image.



Ah yes, the old 'get back on your jam jar, wog' jibe.  Brings back happy memories...


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

a bit of a sore point? I can see why you would react more than me to it then.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> a bit of a sore point? I can see why you would react more than me to it then.



Well, I'd be happy to see them fade into history.  It's not so much about accusing those kids who had those toys of racism, there was no intent of any kind there, but having the dolls and the imagery allowed racists to hurl insults and then claim there was no intent, and that the maligned party was being oversensitive or playing some kind of 'race card'.

I saw Craig Charles on some rubbish show like the The Word years ago totally demolishing the 'harmless lovable children's toys' argument, but I doubt it's on youtube or anything...


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

I'm not keen on them and think /thought they had faded away along time ago, but I think they are becoming slightly popular amongst the anti-"PC" crew deliberately choosing this toy as a form of defiance.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I'm not keen on them and think /thought they had faded away along time ago, but I think they are becoming slightly popular amongst the anti-"PC" crew deliberately choosing this toy as a form of defiance.



I was staying in Devon (week away surfing) earlier this year and they had some in a shop in Ilfracombe (which was otherwise mostly full of touristy stuff). I figured it was a 'rural area, lots of old people' thing, not seen any since, apart from in some story about a neighbour dispute.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

i have spotted a golliwog in a shop window in every single seaside town i've been to in recent years


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> i have spotted a golliwog in a shop window in every single seaside town i've been to in recent years



That would be a ' at self' for me, then.  Didn't see any in Woolacombe (though that's a very 'surfy' place), and don't recall seeing any in Tenby in recent years.  I need to get to more seasides...


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I feel lectured to and I'm thinking he did it not me and don't fucking lecture me you little middle class twat, him telling people they are not allowed to do something that only he was doing in the first place.


says the chap who once started a thread about 'oriental' women's vaginas


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

8ball said:


> That would be a ' at self' for me, then. Didn't see any in Woolacombe (though that's a very 'surfy' place), and don't recall seeing any in Tenby in recent years. I need to get to more seasides...


it's become a bit of a habit now - gollywog spotting.


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> it's become a bit of a habit now - gollywog spotting.



I took a photo of the one in Ilfracombe.


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## Greebo (Nov 8, 2011)

8ball said:


> I took a photo of the one in Ilfracombe.


They're on sale by mail order as "nostalgic items".


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## 8ball (Nov 8, 2011)

That's a great euphemism.


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## Orang Utan (Nov 8, 2011)

Greebo said:


> They're on sale by mail order as "nostalgic items".


i wonder if you can get those cigarette dispensers and money banks in the shape of a gross caricature of a black man.


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## xenon (Nov 8, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I don't think a lot working-class people children owned one probably not that many middle-class people/children did either, he did though.



I had one as a 3 year old, 1979. Think it was my cousins prior. Course at the time I didn't see it as a black person, it didn't look like a real person. Never known the word wog as anything other than racist though. And no, I didn't feel lectured. Because he was talking about the contempory twatts that refuse to acknowledge the racist connnertations of the toy. The fuckwits who feel their freedom is being violated because they can't buy an out of date, offensive kids toy. Why should those peple not feel lectured or mocked?


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## Next2China (Nov 8, 2011)

Maybe you are right, it seems it only me and 8Ball who never owned one.


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## Greebo (Nov 9, 2011)

Next2China said:


> Maybe you are right, it seems it only me and 8Ball who never owned one.


I didn't own one, and my relatives weren't the most politically correct in the world. The only child I knew who owned one was several years younger, and his parents were most definitely middle class progressive parents  (the sort who never said "no" or anything because it would hinder creativity).


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## Mation (Nov 9, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I feel lectured to and I'm thinking he did it not me and don't fucking lecture me you little middle class twat, him telling people they are not allowed to do something that only he was doing in the first place.


If you didn't have one/dont defend them, he wasn't lecturing you. Plenty of people did and do, though. As I said in the OP, I've encountered lots of gollywog defence, so I do think the programme was worthwhile. It made some very sound points with gentle humour.


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## Next2China (Nov 9, 2011)

Herring sums up what wrong with the left, a spoilt privileged boy from from a safe rural middle-class background lecturing poor urban people about crimes that only he and his ancestors committed.


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## xenon (Nov 9, 2011)

LOL


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## fogbat (Nov 9, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> says the chap who once started a thread about 'oriental' women's vaginas


Ohh, is it THUNK?


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## Onket (Nov 9, 2011)

Next2China said:


> Herring sums up what wrong with the left, a spoilt privileged boy from from a safe rural middle-class background lecturing poor urban people about crimes that only he and his ancestors committed.



Are you actually claiming that only the middle class in rural areas are (and have been) racist?!


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## King Biscuit Time (Nov 9, 2011)

Or that only poor people from urban areas have Gollywogs?
What's your point?


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## Next2China (Nov 9, 2011)

Onket said:


> Are you actually claiming that only the middle class in rural areas are (and have been) racist?!



ermm, but they are the ones doing the lecturing aren't they, taking a holier-than-thou attitude, a patronising lecturing attitude towards every one else.

Well, I've put up the mirror.


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## Onket (Nov 9, 2011)

You're off your head, mate.


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## Santino (Nov 9, 2011)

Uncomfortable Truths


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## Onket (Nov 9, 2011)




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## Balbi (Nov 9, 2011)

Next2China said:


> I liked the info and knowledge and the history even looked it up on the internet for more info I just didn't like that reveal bit when he admitted he owned a Gollywog and he used the word Wogged I thought now we know the real motivation guilty little richard had. he shouldn't _*tar all people with the same brush*_.



You're saying he's secretly trying to get us to black up?

I reckon Herring's remarkably honest, and would rather the issue be dealt with than concealing it. He gained nothing from revealing his personal past, and stood to lose more from hiding it.


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## Mation (Nov 9, 2011)

Balbi said:


> You're saying he's secretly trying to get us to black up?
> 
> I reckon Herring's remarkably honest, and would rather the issue be dealt with than concealing it. He gained nothing from revealing his personal past, and stood to lose more *[than]* from hiding it.


shirley?


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## Cid (Nov 9, 2011)

Next2China said:


> Herring sums up what wrong with the left, a spoilt privileged boy from from a safe rural middle-class background lecturing poor urban people about crimes that only he and his ancestors committed.



I'm not sure radio 4's main demographic is the urban poor tbh...


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## Shippou-Sensei (Nov 9, 2011)

Orang Utan said:


> says the chap who once started a thread about 'oriental' women's vaginas



i think i have quite a lot of those manga


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## Corax (Nov 9, 2011)

The notion that Herring was talking _*directly to you*_ brings five.org.uk to mind tbh.


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## Cid (Nov 9, 2011)

fogbat said:


> Ohh, is it THUNK?



If it is then he's give up on spelling evreefin wiv his fonetik jeeneus.


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## Corax (Nov 10, 2011)

Cid said:


> If it is then he's give up on spelling evreefin wiv his fonetik jeeneus.


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