# Welsh Republican Army - latest communique



## ernestolynch (May 4, 2004)

(Source withheld)

Meibion Glyndwr - Sons of Glyndwr - began their Armed Resistance  Campaign of second (empty) homes burning in December 1979 in protest at what they realised was a growing trend of homes in rural our Welsh Hearlands'  being sold as holiday cottages to wealthy incommers from England who were destroying the Heartland of Cymru- its language, identity and culture- some villages can be traced back for centuries. 

 Around 300 properties were targeted during a campaign lasting until the mid-1990s. 

Now the former head of North Wales CID Gareth Jones has told BBC Wales' Taro Naw programme that some officers in the force, but who were outside the unit investigating the arsonists, supported the actions of Meibion Glyndwr.  If Mr Jones suspected that some officers were "perverted the course of justice" then his complaints should have been made at the appropriate time, not to Taro television programme.  Or could it be that this man was acting out his racism against fellow  Cymraeg Speaking Officers? 

Mr Jones, who is now retired, said: "It was a very exciting time - a very difficult time for the police. At the time there was great political pressure.

"What you had were massive local potests from secretive communities in Wales breaking the law night after night and there was pressure on the chief constable to catch those responsible. 

"There's no doubt that some police outside this unit were supportive of what was going on. 

"I have no doubt about that and we had to co-operate and work with those people, but nobody was open about it at the time of course." 

Also in the programme, Mr Jones creates a map of where he believes members of Meibion Glyndwr lived, based on the pattern of arson attacks.   

Meibion Glyndwr - named after 15th Century rebel leader Owain Glyndwr - said in 1989 that "every white settler" was a target for their campaign. 

But the group has not been active since the mid-1990s. 

Historian Dr John Davies said the widespread sympathy for the campaign in certain areas of Wales was such that fresh arrests from a new police investigation could lead to the start of a similar campaign. 

The MP for Clwyd West and solicitor Gareth Thomas said he was "mystified" as to why the force had now decided to re-open the investigation. At the time Police were accused in some quarters of targeting anyone who was a Welsh nationalist.  Could it be that the upsurge in Welsh Nationalism and the plain truth of the Independent Wales Party/ Cymru Annibynnol  has caused Whitehall to shiver? 

Mr Wolfendale said on Tuesday: "We have a policy of going back and looking at serious crimes and we have started to reinvestigate the campaign to burn cottages".  That's a lie. What we see here is just the begining of  England's terror tactics used against the Welsh, just as they were used against other colonies.

Prince Owain disappeared. So have his sons. If  Wolfendale has sense, he will leave sleeping dogs lie. Anyone arrested will be deemed by Nationalists to be regarded as Republican Prisoners of War. That's a scenario no-right minded person wants. But we will not be intimidated, accused or threatened. England's done that for 400 years. No more. Never again. The price of loosing our Nation is too high a price to pay. To save Cymru, many brave Warriors are ready to shed  blood. The Police will stand behind us, our Army and our communities- England think twice!   Beware, we are no longer your slaves. Fe godwn ni eto!


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## butchersapron (May 4, 2004)

Source witheld? It's all on the BBC website ern - it's not some mysterious secret that the investigation has been re-opened.


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## TeeJay (May 5, 2004)

Who are the Walsh?


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## ernestolynch (May 5, 2004)

They're like the Inglish but better lookin'.


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## Col_Buendia (May 5, 2004)

I've occupied central Cardiff on behalf of the 10,000 strong Wombles army - I'm expecting them to pass through any minute now on their way home from Dublin, collect a few virgins, exact a few tributes and then head back on to London.

Nobody seems to mind round here.


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

Hmmm. 

This Owain Glyndwr chappie kind of reminds me of that David 'nail bomber' Copeland chappie. 

He too was probably concerned about 'loosing his nation' and sought to fight against 'incommers' to stop the erosion his native language, identity and culture.

Of course Copeland wasn't a fucking upper-class aristocratic murderous dickhead like Owain Glyndwr - he was just a murderous dickhead!

Go on, have another drink Ernie!


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

Definitely the winner of the historically illiterate troll of the year....


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## llantwit (May 5, 2004)

Who's trolling Dr C?
I'd be interested to hear what you think about this thread.


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## maldwyn (May 5, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> This Owain Glyndwr chappie kind of reminds me of that David 'nail bomber' Copeland chappie.


Owain Glyndwr


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

maldwyn said:
			
		

> Owain Glyndwr



No thoughts of your own then?

So what don't you agree with?

That he wasn't upper-class? 

That he wasn't an aristocratic? 

That he wasn't murderous? 

Or that he wasn't a dickhead?

Okay - he might not have been a dickhead - but he was certainly all of the first three!


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

I'm with fanta on this:  Glyndwr - self-serving aristo.  Bit like Robert the Bruce.

Certainly not a figurehead for any progressive movement.


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## DaveCinzano (May 5, 2004)

well, when he had a guest spot on 'robin of sherwood' he was cool as fuck.

and ray winstone was will scarlett


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

Gave the Saes a kickin', though (for a while). Sends him shooting up the ranks of cool Taffies as far as I'm concerned


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

Llantwit- comparing a warlord from the fifteenth century with a fscist nailbomber at the end of the twentieth century is probably the most ludicrous historical comparison I think I've ever seen.

Yers, he was an aristo, yes he was a brutal warlord- so were most people who wielded power in the Ynys Prydenig at that time.

I must confess I'm not sure what 'fanta's point is- other than a fairly poor troll of ern.


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I must confess I'm not sure what 'fanta's point is- other than a fairly poor troll of ern.



Well scroll up and slowly read Pilchardman's post then Doc!

Troll of Ern's post indeed - LOL  - what the fuck do you think Ern's whole thread is itself!?

Well duh!


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

You answered first- pilchardman's views have got fuck all to do with this.

Do you usually look to semi-legendary figures from the Middle Ages as templates for 'progressive' political movements?


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

Pilchardman and I agree (I think) that this Glyndwr is an absurd example to have as a template for 'progressive' political movements.

It sounds like you think so to.

Oh hum.


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Pilchardman and I agree (I think) that this Glyndwr is an absurd example to have as a template for 'progressive' political movements.


Absolutely.  And lauding him does serious damage to the notion of progressive, "civic" nationalism.


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

well it looks like we're all agreed then.


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Absolutely.  And lauding him does serious damage to the notion of progressive, "civic" nationalism.




You're absolutely right of course. Myths and legends do tend to hijacked for all kinds of purposes. Unfortunately, as a 'successful' symbol of Welsh resistance and self-determination he's about all we've got.


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

Am I also right in assuming, then, that both Fanta and Pilchardman consider Meibion Glyndwr to have been a 'progressive' political movement? Certainly better than the Free Wales Army, mind.


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

My grammar may have been lax.  I think it fair to point out that I don't think there is such a thing as a progressive, civic nationalism.


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## fanta (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Am I also right in assuming, then, that both Fanta and Pilchardman consider Meibion Glyndwr to have been a 'progressive' political movement? Certainly better than the Free Wales Army, mind.



Progressive? Well I suppose burning property is better than burning people. 

But they were Wales for the Welsh and nobody else nationalists, right? 

Well that is crap. I don't want England just for the English and nobody else.


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> My grammar may have been lax.  I think it fair to point out that I don't think there is such a thing as a progressive, civic nationalism.



The thread on the world politics forum is discussing that self same subject right now. I do.


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## kea (May 5, 2004)

ern, yesterday:


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Progressive? Well I suppose burning property is better than burning people.
> 
> But they were Wales for the Welsh and nobody else nationalists, right?
> 
> Well that is crap. I don't want England just for the English and nobody else.



I feel that your contention is fairly simplistic and don't believe that the dynamic is exactly the same. What Meibion Glyndwr were attempting to do was to preserve Welsh culture. If our language was a building, it would have UNESCO world heritage status. It defines the country and is a potent symbol of resistance against the (ongoing) English imperialist adventure. Welsh survived in pockets as a result of those pockets being isolated and economically unviable but sadly in our times such places are incredibly marketable due to their beauty. English inmigration is (and was) pushing up property prices in predominantly Welsh speaking areas forcing local people and especially the young to move elsewhere to buy homes. This in turn is diluting the beating heart of the Welsh language, which cannot survive simply as a second language spoken by the middle classes in the affluent south. Given that Welsh defines, to a greater degree, our nationhood, and given that the language is now under greater threat than ever before, I would contend that Meibion Glyndwr were attempting (however misguidedly in some people's eyes) to ensure that Wales remains Wales for future generations rather than an emasculated 'England West'.

Welsh History 

We were a people taut for war; the hills
Were no harder, the thin grass
Clothed them more warmly than the coarse
Shirts our small bones.
We fought, and were always in retreat,
Like snow thawing upon the slopes
Of Mynydd Mawr; and yet the stranger
Never found our ultimate stand
In the thick woods, declaiming verse
To the sharp prompting of the harp. 

Our kings died, or they were slain
By the old treachery at the ford.
Our bards perished, driven from the halls
Of nobles by the thorn and bramble. 

We were a people bred on legends,
Warming our hands at the red past.
The great were ashamed of our loose rags
Clinging stubbornly to the proud tree
Of blood and birth, our lean bellies
And mud houses were a proof
Of our ineptitude for life. 

We were a people wasting ourselves
In fruitless battles for our masters,
In lands to which we had no claim,
With men for whom we felt no hatred. 

We were a people, and are so yet.
When we have finished quarrelling for crumbs
Under the table, or gnawing the bones
Of a dead culture, we will arise
And greet each other in a new dawn. 

R.S. Thomas

The Old Language 

England, what have you done to make the speech
My fathers used a stranger to my lips,
An offence to the ear, a shackle on the tongue
That would fit new thoughts to an abiding tune?
Answer me now. The workshop where they wrought
Stands idle, and thick dust covers their tools.
The blue metal of streams, the copper and gold
Seams in the wood are all unquarried; the leaves'
Intricate filigree falls, and who shall renew
Its brisk pattern? When spring wakens the hearts
Of the young children to sing, what song shall be theirs? 

R.S. Thomas


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## ernestolynch (May 5, 2004)

Chwara' teg, bendeus...chwara' teg...


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

> English inmigration is (and was) pushing up property prices in predominantly Welsh speaking areas forcing local people and especially the young to move elsewhere to buy homes


Exactly the same thing happened in my home village in Highland Scotland.  My first house with my partner was a static caravan because of this phenomenon.

However, the issue is not an ethnic issue; it's a class issue.  The ethnicity of the middle class settlers is not the salient fact.  Their spending power is.

In my area we had the phenomenon of Clearance and eviction.  These were real effects, but not due to the actions of _English_ landowners, but rather due to the actions of _landowners_, many of whom were Scots (albiet educated in private schools and with unScots sounding accents).

My problem with nationalism is that it obscures the class issue.  My sympathy always lies with anti imperialist movements, but when the anti imperialists see the problem as being the ethnicity of their oppressors rather than the oppression itself, then I have trouble believing that movement to be progressive.


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> However, the issue is not an ethnic issue; it's a class issue.  The ethnicity of the middle class settlers is not the salient fact.  Their spending power is.
> 
> My problem with nationalism is that it obscures the class issue.  My sympathy always lies with anti imperialist movements, but when the anti imperialists see the problem as being the ethnicity of their oppressors rather than the oppression itself, then I have trouble believing that movement to be progressive.



Very good point, but it still fails to address the underlying issue of language and culture. I would contend that wealthy Welsh polyglots moving into the area would be better than wealthy English monoglots simply because the former would be able to integrate with the communities they are entering more effectively and more sympathetically. Naturally, neither would be preferable, because both have the same effect on property prices, but if faced with the choice....


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Very good point, but it still fails to address the underlying issue of language and culture.


No it doesn't.

What about Gujurati and English speaking polyglots moving into the area?


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## Hollis (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> English inmigration is (and was) pushing up property prices in predominantly Welsh speaking areas forcing local people and especially the young to move elsewhere to buy homes. This in turn is diluting the beating heart of the Welsh language, which cannot survive simply as a second language spoken by the middle classes in the affluent south. Given that Welsh defines, to a greater degree, our nationhood, and given that the language is now under greater threat than ever before, I would contend that Meibion Glyndwr were attempting (however misguidedly in some people's eyes) to ensure that Wales remains Wales for future generations rather than an emasculated 'England West'.



I really don't get this sort of nationalism.  Should I go home and watch afew 1960s Ealing comedies & then take a walk around Haringey lamenting the death of English culture?


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> My problem with nationalism is that it obscures the class issue.  My sympathy always lies with anti imperialist movements, but when the anti imperialists see the problem as being the ethnicity of their oppressors rather than the oppression itself, then I have trouble believing that movement to be progressive.



Sorry, but where does modern Welsh, Scots or Cornish nationalism see the problems of their nation as resulting from the 'English'?

I'd love to see you produce a quote from an SNP, Plaid or MK spekesperson stating that.

Cause I've been active in both the SNP and Plaid for nearly a decade and I've yet to hear _any_ front line representative ever state that.

indeed, ordinary mebers who have voiced such opinions have been kicked out (Settler Watch and the 1320 Club from the SNP, and also individuals from Plaid).


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

Hollis said:
			
		

> I really don't get this sort of nationalism.



That's because it's bloody obvious that you;ve little interest in engaging with the problems other than to belittle them.


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> I'd love to see you produce a quote from an SNP, Plaid or MK spekesperson stating that.


I have no interest in the pronouncements of those parties.  I merely point you to the views of bendeus, above.  ^^


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> No it doesn't.
> 
> What about Gujurati and English speaking polyglots moving into the area?



Point taken mate. I think there are answers, and I don't want to sound like some rabid 'Wales for the Welsh' loony. 

Provided such polyglots were prepared to assimilate, provided that they attempted to learn the local language, provided that they were mindful of where they were and did not view their new home as simply a pretty spot surrounded by surly locals to be avoided at all costs, and provided that these theoretical inmigrants paid a surcharge on the property they bought, the profits of which was ringfenced to subsidise local first time homes for people from the area, no problem.

The sad fact is that holiday home owners fit into none of these categories and neither do many English inmigrants who perpetuate the tiresome and risible "I walked into the pub and they all started speaking Welsh" garbage.

If they wanted to inmigrate to a non-Welsh speaking area then none of the above need apply. I just believe radical measures are required to preserve a very beautiful, necessary and historically important language. 

A final point - very few Gujiratis in the wilds of Wales, hence the presence of the really nasty apotheosis of the blanco, Saesneg inmigrant - Nick Fucking Griffin, who as we know doesn't like to see non-Whites too often, in our fair land. If there was ever a candidate for a home burning....


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I don't want to sound like some rabid 'Wales for the Welsh' loony.


Fair enough.  And I'm all for cultural diversity, and maintaining local culture.  I come from an area that formerly spoke Gaelic.  I know a little Gaelic.  But the problem isn't the ethnicity of the incomers, it's the disparity between their spending power and that of the locals.

There are interesting debates to be had about housing and community self help.  Ethnicity doesn't need to come into it.


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## Dr. Christmas (May 5, 2004)

so you have no interest in engaging with their pronouncements, yet you're happy to smugly assert that 'I don't believe them to be progressive'?


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## Hollis (May 5, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> That's because it's bloody obvious that you;ve little interest in engaging with the problems other than to belittle them.



Nah, that's bollocks.  What problem - nationalisms' co-exisitng maybe? Oh being able to have a pride in your nation without labelling problems as being one of English immigirants etc.. of dealing with cultural change maybe?


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> so you have no interest in engaging with their pronouncements, yet you're happy to smugly assert that 'I don't believe them to be progressive'?


Did you read my posts?  Or are you just assuming that nationalism is only represented by the official press releases of the nationalist parties of Scotland and Wales?


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> Fair enough.  And I'm all for cultural diversity, and maintaining local culture.  I come from an area that formerly spoke Gaelic.  I know a little Gaelic.  But the problem isn't the ethnicity of the incomers, it's the disparity between their spending power and that of the locals.
> 
> There are interesting debates to be had about housing and community self help.  Ethnicity doesn't need to come into it.



Seem to be going round in circles here. I know these may seem to be extreme examples but would you make the same contention for Han inmigrants in Tibet or ethnic Javanese in Kalimantan? That is most definitely ethnic, not economic. I respect your points but still feel you are missing the wider one of a need to preserve ethnic and cultural identity against the rising tide of one size fits all, monolithic McCulture. The metropolis/dominator culture will always squeeze out the satellite/oppressed culture economically, but there is an ethnic dimension to the dynamic that you cannot ignore.

With you being 'all for' ethnic diversity, would you care if 'Wales' died out as an entity or would you see it as a great stride towards a nationless world in which people find common cause through community and shared experience rather than a 'perceived' sense of kindred spirit stemming from a common birthplace?


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> With you being 'all for' ethnic diversity, would you care if 'Wales' died out as an entity


I'm not sure what the entity you call Wales consists of.

I can tell you about the entity people call Scotland, and in my view no such entity exists now, never mind in the future.  The cultural heritage of the North East - the bothy ballads, skirlie-in-the-pan, Doric.  None of these are mine.  There are many cultures within Scotland.  And, I assume, Wales.  My sympathy is more with the Liverpudlian worker than with the Aberdeen landowner.

I'd like to see the break up of the UK, yes.  But not into substates that have no more reality than "Britain".


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

> “Tower Hamlets was a predominantly English speaking area but all the Asians moving in are forcing up the house prices and now when I walk down the street I can’t hear anyone speaking English”, isn’t that the sort of bollox you read in BNP leaflets and crap like that and to me it is no different just because it is said about a different country.



You forget the metanarrative. The En-ger-land racism evinced by those who hate asians moving into their area is the chauvenistic, aggressive ethnic racism of the oppressor towards the oppressed - kick 'em when they're down style. The 'racism' you claim to have weeded out of my statements is that of the oppressed against the oppressor - a hearty fatigue with the ongoing takeover of my country by another nation. A takeover whose roots go back centuries. You're very wrong, mate.


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## pilchardman (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> The 'racism' you claim to have weeded out of my statements


I made no such claim.  And neither would I.


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

pilchardman said:
			
		

> I made no such claim.  And neither would I.



Sorry, Pilchardman. I was replying to BuzzSw9's post - should have made myself clearer.


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## Hollis (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> You forget the metanarrative. The En-ger-land racism evinced by those who hate asians moving into their area is the chauvenistic, aggressive ethnic racism of the oppressor towards the oppressed - kick 'em when they're down style. The 'racism' you claim to have weeded out of my statements is that of the oppressed against the oppressor - a hearty fatigue with the ongoing takeover of my country by another nation. A takeover whose roots go back centuries. You're very wrong, mate.



Surely the greater process is that of on-going mobility of people within and between nations.  D'you really think there's a need for seperate Welsh 'enclaves' as you suggest, is Welsh culture not strong enough co-exisit like the numerous other cultures do in England?


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## bendeus (May 5, 2004)

Hollis said:
			
		

> Surely the greater process is that of on-going mobility of people within and between nations.  D'you really think there's a need for seperate Welsh 'enclaves' as you suggest, is Welsh culture not strong enough co-exisit like the numerous other cultures do in England?



Judging by the ongoing decline of the language, no.


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## Hollis (May 5, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> Judging by the ongoing decline of the language, no.



But is that really anything to do with English/Scottish etc moving to Wales?  Comes back to people seeing beyond the county boundary these days.


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## fanta (May 6, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I feel that your contention is fairly simplistic and don't believe that the dynamic is exactly the same. What Meibion Glyndwr were attempting to do was to preserve Welsh culture. If our language was a building, it would have UNESCO world heritage status. It defines the country and is a potent symbol of resistance against the (ongoing) English imperialist adventure. Welsh survived in pockets as a result of those pockets being isolated and economically unviable but sadly in our times such places are incredibly marketable due to their beauty. English inmigration is (and was) pushing up property prices in predominantly Welsh speaking areas forcing local people and especially the young to move elsewhere to buy homes. This in turn is diluting the beating heart of the Welsh language, which cannot survive simply as a second language spoken by the middle classes in the affluent south. Given that Welsh defines, to a greater degree, our nationhood, and given that the language is now under greater threat than ever before, I would contend that Meibion Glyndwr were attempting (however misguidedly in some people's eyes) to ensure that Wales remains Wales for future generations rather than an emasculated 'England West'.



What a silly pointless task. Language and culture change and evolve. It is what makes them interesting and exciting. To resist their evolution is futile anyway. Who wants roots anyway? Roots can mean you're stuck in one place or time. Better to be recpetive to different influences and changes. Mix it up.

Edited to add:

ern, yesterday:


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## rednblack (May 6, 2004)

i do believe it is possible to have a progressive civic nationalism, i believe that plaid cymru, mebyon kernow etc provide that sort of outlook, i believe that it would be possible to have an equivelent party in england. but i don't see the point, yeah i think that cultural survival is important to some extent, i think it makes things more interesting to live in a multilingual society, to be able to go to different parts of the country where different languages are spoken and both indegionous and immigrant cultures retain some independence. but i do not believe in cutural presevation it is not possible to preserve human cultures in aspic, things move on, languages change, attitudes and customs change. natural evolution is not what happened to celtic culture or many others however there was a systematic attempt to erase them in favour of a ruling class impearialistic one. that is why it is understandable that some militants and others seek various sometimes dodgy methods to defend them.

that does not change the fact that the problems of most welsh people stem from the fact they are working class and are esentially identical to the problems of english workers.


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## Random (May 6, 2004)

rednblack said:
			
		

> plaid cymru, mebyon kernow etc provide that sort of outlook, i believe that it would be possible to have an equivelent party in england



Cornwal is officially in England.  If you looked closer at 'English' identities you'd find they broke up too -- into Cumbrian, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Dorset, etc. identities.  When we're looking at threatened communal traditions they are usually as diverse as fuck -- and hard to squeeze into any one 'national' identity.


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## rednblack (May 6, 2004)

so actually maybe will see the emergence of "county" or regional parties

ssshh dont tell dr christmas that cornwall is in england


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## bendeus (May 6, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> What a silly pointless task. Language and culture change and evolve. It is what makes them interesting and exciting. To resist their evolution is futile anyway. Who wants roots anyway? Roots can mean you're stuck in one place or time. Better to be recpetive to different influences and changes. Mix it up.



There is, however, a difference between being receptive and, as you quaintly put it, 'mixing it up' and being annihilated. Rednblack's point is salient, that the decline of 'Celtic' cultures and linguistic traditions were, for the greater part, the result of systematic policies of centuries long cultural genocide on the part of Anglo conquerers (see my blue books post earlier in the thread). The job started by rapacious and racist English elites is now conveniently being finished off by globalisation. 

Following on from your argument, I would contend that you are an apologist for empire, conquest and culture war. Would you extend the same laissez faire attitude towards the North American indians? The aborigine? The Maya? Should they also just sit back ('cos who wants roots anyway?) and allow 'progress' to swallow them whole? Should violent and ethnically based land grabs be excused because the original occupants of those lands are clinging onto outdated and moribund cultures and linguistic traditions, and generally getting in the way of 'interesting and exciting' cultural shifts. If language changes by osmosis that is one thing, if language changes by right of conquest and opression that is entirely different. You sneer at a linguistic group's right to self-determination without any real grasp of the facts. Are you by any chance English?


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## TeeJay (May 6, 2004)

rednblack said:
			
		

> i do believe it is possible to have a progressive civic nationalism, i believe that plaid cymru, mebyon kernow etc provide that sort of outlook, i believe that it would be possible to have an equivelent party in england.


Yes - its called the Green Party.  I admit there is the current outstanding issue of the Green party in Wales running against Plaid Cymru, but generally it actually cooperates a lot with PC (for example working with Plaid Cymru MPs on the Home Energy Conservation Bill etc) and has recently made an agreement with MK as well. I am a Green party supporter (not currently a paid-up member although I was when I was living in London), but despite this I *still* see a lot of value in people/regions/countries choosing to remain part of the UK and even if I were a paid-up GP member/activist etc I would still be allowed to have my own opinion about various policies, as long as I didn't try and pretend that they were the agreed national GP policy, and as long as they weren't contrary to the basic values of the GP. I believe that belonging to the UN, the EU or the UK doesn't preclude other levels of government and doesn't preclude having stonger local government, comunities or recognition of diverse cultural identites.


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## ernestolynch (May 6, 2004)

Random said:
			
		

> Cornwal is officially in England.  If you looked closer at 'English' identities you'd find they broke up too -- into Cumbrian, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Dorset, etc. identities.  When we're looking at threatened communal traditions they are usually as diverse as fuck -- and hard to squeeze into any one 'national' identity.



Czechoslovakia was 'officially' in Germany in 1940 you prat. Since when have you been a trumpeteer for de jure officialdom?


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## RubberBuccaneer (May 6, 2004)

Can i point out that durin the MG campaign, the people burnt out were called 'White settlers' to delibrately distance themselves from any racist claims.
There were also Welsh peoples homes burnt e.g. from other parts of Wales using them as second homes.

BTW re OG did you know that Che and Castro were inspired by him?


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## JTG (May 6, 2004)

rednblack said:
			
		

> so actually maybe will see the emergence of "county" or regional parties
> 
> ssshh dont tell dr christmas that cornwall is in england



Well the Wessex Regionalist party is still around innit?

Not sure I'd want to vote for Lord Bath and his mates though...


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## pilchardman (May 6, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> Czechoslovakia was 'officially' in Germany in 1940 you prat. Since when have you been a trumpeteer for de jure officialdom?


Didn't you understand his point, or are you just being obdurate for the fun of it?


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## TeeJay (May 7, 2004)

RubberBuccaneer said:
			
		

> Can i point out that durin the MG campaign, the people burnt out were called 'White settlers' to delibrately distance themselves from any racist claims.


So how is giving your victims a "racial" label suppose to not be racist? Tonight I heard the ("black" Ugandan-born) Rev. John Sentamu - the Bishop of Birmingham - on 'Question Time' denouncing Mugabe as a "racist dictator" for his treatment of white farmers in Zimbabwe. I think these people are a bit confused about what racism actually is.


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Llantwit- comparing a warlord from the fifteenth century with a fscist nailbomber at the end of the twentieth century is probably the most ludicrous historical comparison I think I've ever seen..


I have to say that I've seen worse, but it sure was a daft comparison to make.


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## fanta (May 7, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> There is, however, a difference between being receptive and, as you quaintly put it, 'mixing it up' and being annihilated. Rednblack's point is salient, that the decline of 'Celtic' cultures and linguistic traditions were, for the greater part, the result of systematic policies of centuries long cultural genocide on the part of Anglo conquerers (see my blue books post earlier in the thread). The job started by rapacious and racist English elites is now conveniently being finished off by globalisation.
> 
> Following on from your argument, I would contend that you are an apologist for empire, conquest and culture war. Would you extend the same laissez faire attitude towards the North American indians? The aborigine? The Maya? Should they also just sit back ('cos who wants roots anyway?) and allow 'progress' to swallow them whole? Should violent and ethnically based land grabs be excused because the original occupants of those lands are clinging onto outdated and moribund cultures and linguistic traditions, and generally getting in the way of 'interesting and exciting' cultural shifts. If language changes by osmosis that is one thing, if language changes by right of conquest and opression that is entirely different. You sneer at a linguistic group's right to self-determination without any real grasp of the facts. Are you by any chance English?



The Welsh are not and will not be annihilated. Neither is their language. If Welsh ceases to be spoken in the future then so what? It will be replaced by something just as interesting. The same goes for English and any other language spoken where there have been centuries of human interaction.

There really are other more serious issues to get soooo emotional about.

I'm not an apologist for anything and I think your weak attempt  to draw an analogy of the suffering of Native American Indians, Aboriginies and Maya with the biggest victims in history, er, the Welsh to be risible nonsense. 

Languages change, they always have done and always will. There is nothing wrong with studying and speaking old and/or dying languages, but people should not use these old and/or dying languages to justify their own xenephobia or prejudice should they?

Am I English? There is no such thing really. 

We are a bastardised race. 

We are all mongrels. 

We are not pedigrees or pure.

We've been mixed up and thank God for it too! 

We have Celtic, African Indo-European blood running through our veins. 

Our genes are a kaleidoscope of human kind.

In our cities we speak up to fourteen languages - not just fucking one pal!

For these reasons I think we're great!

(and you're probably okay too  )


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## fanta (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I have to say that I've seen worse, but it sure was a daft comparison to make.



Nah! They were both passionate haters of foreigners.


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

Hollis said:
			
		

> D'you really think there's a need for seperate Welsh 'enclaves' as you suggest, is Welsh culture not strong enough co-exisit like the numerous other cultures do in England?


The language is one of the main things that defines Welsh culture, and it's important to remember that the English did their very best to destroy it forever. 

In 1870, the English banned the language that had been spoken for untold centuries from schools. _Banned it! _ 

Imagine a bunch of Johnny Foreigners steaming into your classroom and telling you that from now on you have to speak a different language to your parents and forebearers - or take a beating.

The change was immediate: 75% of the population spoke Welsh in 1851. By 1891 it was 54%.

Immigration, two world wars, the depression and industrialisation m

I think the Welsh have every right to try and defend a thousand year old culture that has come under sustained social and economic attack.

Personally, I think it is _entirely reasonable _ to expect English (and Asian etc)  immigrants moving in to strong Welsh speaking languages to trouble themselves to learn the language. How about you?


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Nah! They were both passionate haters of foreigners.


Are you really going to pursue this idiotic comparison? 

David Copeland was a lone, cowardly, sick, racist bigot, hell bent on murdering and maiming random people for no other reason that he didn't like their colour or sexuality.

No matter how you try and twist history, that description does not fit Glyndwr's popular rising.


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## Snorkelboy (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it is _entirely reasonable _ to expect English (and Asian etc)  immigrants moving in to strong Welsh speaking languages to trouble themselves to learn the language. How about you?



Out of interest, what % of locals would need ot speak welsh before you'd apply this expectation.


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## fanta (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> The language is one of the main things that defines Welsh culture, and it's important to remember that the English did their very best to destroy it forever.
> 
> In 1870, the English banned the language that had been spoken for untold centuries from schools. _Banned it! _
> 
> ...



Fine. Then learn the language. Speak it. And let immigrants learn it too.

But let us not use what the English ('English' whatever that means!) ruling classes did generations and centuries ago as an excuse for childish prejudiced anipathy towards modern 'English' people.

And if some Welsh people want to use a fifteenth century aristocratic thug as a figurehead to exalt Wales and Welshness then I'm absolutely delighted for them old chap!


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## mwgdrwg (May 7, 2004)




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## editor (May 7, 2004)

Snorkelboy said:
			
		

> Out of interest, what % of locals would need ot speak welsh before you'd apply this expectation.


I'd say that's obvious: if you move into a village and the predominate language in the shops, cafés and pubs is Welsh, then I'd do my best to be able to converse with locals in their tongue rather than adopting the time honoured Britishers-in-Spain approach and SHOUTING IN ENGLISH.

How about you?


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## Snorkelboy (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I'd say that's obvious: if you move into a village and the predominate language in the shops, cafés and pubs is Welsh, then I'd do my best to be able to converse with locals in their tongue rather than adopting the time honoured Britishers-in-Spain approach and SHOUTING IN ENGLISH.
> 
> How about you?



Yeah - I'd agree with that.


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## fanta (May 7, 2004)

mwgdrwg said:
			
		

>



Very handsome. A *regal* flag for the Welsh *Republican* Army?

Lovely.


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

fanta said:
			
		

> Very handsome. A *regal* flag for the Welsh *Republican* Army?


I'll tell you one thing: the Welsh National Anthem _kicks ass _ compared to the brown-nose, dreary drone of God Save Our Queen.


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## King Biscuit Time (May 7, 2004)

Anything knocks that tired old dirge into a cocked hat though doesn't it!

Burkina Faso, Now Theres an Anthem!


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## fanta (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll tell you one thing: the Welsh National Anthem _kicks ass _ compared to the brown-nose, dreary drone of God Save Our Queen.



Indeed. But wasn't that royalist ditty written by a German? In fact isn't that silly old fart German too? Or Greek? Or summat?

I think I'd prefer a nice Gregory Isaacs tune anyway...


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## Hollis (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I think the Welsh have every right to try and defend a thousand year old culture that has come under sustained social and economic attack.
> 
> Personally, I think it is _entirely reasonable _ to expect English (and Asian etc)  immigrants moving in to strong Welsh speaking languages to trouble themselves to learn the language. How about you?



I'd say toleration and mutual respect is what calls for.  And I'm not sure forming legal enclaves to protect certain cultures is the way forward. - Globalisation etc - its inevitable that local cultures are going to have to redefine themselves, but I don't think withdrawing into ones own ethnicity is the way forward.


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## TeeJay (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Personally, I think it is _entirely reasonable _ to expect English (and Asian etc)  immigrants moving in to strong Welsh speaking languages to trouble themselves to learn the language. How about you?


Conversely what about "expecting" people to learn English? Personally I'd just let people learn whatever they find useful, although I would always *encourage* people to learn the languages of the people around them, and do my best to provide free lessons and fund cultural events and facilities. I would also provide public services in a way that allowed people to get equal access, including the easiest language for them. You could even provide for a range of languages on urban75 although it might be harder to moderate.

¿Aprender las personas opuestamente qué tal "esperando" inglés? Personalmente acabo de personas de permitir aprende cualquier ellos encuentran útil, aunque haga siempre *alenta* personas para aprender los idiomas de las personas alrededor de ellos, y hacer mi proporcionar mejor las lecciones libres y financiar los acontecimientos y las facilidades culturales. Proporcionaría también los servicios públicos de una manera que permitió a personas para obtener el acceso igual, inclusive el idioma más fácil para ellos. Usted puede proporciona aún para una gama de idiomas en urban75 aunque quizás sea difícil de moderar. 

Réciproquement et "prévoir" les gens pour apprendre l'anglais? Personnellement je ferais juste a laissé des gens apprennent quoi qu'ils trouvent utile, bien que je ferais toujours *encourage* les gens pour apprendre les langues des gens autour d'eux, et faire mon mieux fournir des leçons libres et subventionne des événements et des facilités culturelles. Je fournirais aussi des services publics dans une façon qui a permis des gens obtenir l'accès d'égal, y compris la langue la plus facile pour eux. Vous pourriez pourvoir même à une gamme de langues sur urban75 bien qu'ez pourriez être plus dur à modérer. 

Umgekehrt was um Erwartenleute zu lernen Englisch? Persönlich werde ich nur läßt Leute lernen was auch immer sie finden nützlich, obwohl ich werde immer *ermutigt* Leute zu lernen die Sprachen von den Leuten um sie, und mein Bestes zu versorgen freie Lektionen und zu fundieren kulturelle Ereignisse und Einrichtungen macht. Ich würde auch Staatsdienste versorgen in gewisser Hinsicht, der Leute erlaubt hat, gleichen Zugang zu erhalten, einschließlich der leichtesten Sprache für sie. Sie können sogar liefert einen Bereich der Sprachen auf urban75, obwohl es härter sein könnte, zu mäßigen.

"expecting" についての逆に何; 英語を学ぶ人々か。個人的にI'd はちょうど私が常にそれらのまわりで* 励ますため* 人々人々の言語を学ぶ見つけ自由なレッスンを提供し、文化でき事及び設備に資金を供給するために私の最もよいするが人々が有用ものは何でも学ぶことを可能にする。私はまたそれらに人々が同等のアクセスを得ることを可能にした最も容易な言語を含む方法で公共事業を提供する。緩和することは堅いかもしれないが urban75 で言語の範囲を提供できる。


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> I would also provide public services in a way that allowed people to get equal access, including the easiest language for them. You could even provide for a range of languages on urban75 although it might be harder to moderate.


If you'd care to provide the funding for multi-lingual versions of urban75 and provide 24/7 multi-lingual moderating cover, I'd be delighted to oblige.


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## editor (May 7, 2004)

Buzz sw9 said:
			
		

> When was it that God Save the Queen (the National anthem of Great Britain and the United Kingdom) became the National anthem of England?


I didn't make that claim, although you'd be hard pressed to find a Welshman who considers 'God Save the Queen ' to be their national anthem.


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## TeeJay (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I'll tell you one thing: the Welsh National Anthem _kicks ass _ compared to the brown-nose, dreary drone of God Save Our Queen.


Anything that makes it harder to fetishise symbols of nationalism uis fine by me. Make all national symbols as boring and uninspiring as possible and hopefully people won't want to go and "kick arse" or 'get their blood up' when the hear them. The less mystical codswallop and ethnic mythology people attach to their legal citizenship (which consists of their legal rights to reside, work, pay-taxes, abide by laws, vote and so forth) the better in my book. Someone's 'ethnicity' (ie language, religion, culture etc) is different from their nationality (ie citizenship) and different from their so-called "race" (ie their physical appearance to other people, or if you are being slightly more generous, the sum total of their genetic inheritance from all their ancestors). Above and beyond this all people are unique individuals. What kind of role does a "rousing national anthem" play in all helping these people get along? Which people does it bring together and which people does it separate people from?


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## TeeJay (May 7, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> I didn't make that claim, although you'd be hard pressed to find a Welshman who considers 'God Save the Queen ' to be their national anthem.


But the Queen is their head of state. When a Welsh athlete competes in the Olympics they march under the UK union flag and listen to the national athem when they win a medal. I have never seen any of them protest about this or demand that there be dragons etc. Of course when they compete for the Welsh team it would be different.

Personally I think that there is a strong case for putting a dragon somewhere on the union flag (since England, Scotland and NI all have representation). Alternatively you could just take satisfaction in know that it is the "Hidden Dragon" (Crouching Tiger?) behind the flag, and its been left off so as not to scare people too much.


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## TeeJay (May 7, 2004)

bendeus said:
			
		

> I just believe radical measures are required to preserve a very beautiful, necessary and historically important language.


We could start havig more Welsh (any Welsh for that matter) used or introduced to other parts of the UK. Why is it that I spent many years at school learning French _"because it is our nearest European neighbour"_ yet I do not know a *single* word of Welsh? Why is it that I can find so many resources (eg online) for learning or translating other languages but none for Welsh? Why have I never seen any Welsh on TV or heard any on radio, even the BBC? If this was being taken seriously, everyone in the UK would have at least some knowledge of some basic Welsh words and phrases. I can't help thinking that in fact this is not all down to English or British neglect, but in some ways Welsh speakers maybe don't *want* other people learning their language maybe, since it might have an unfortunate effect culturally? I don't know if this is true, but I do wonder why noone seems to really bother pushing this forwards as most English-speakers are hardly that sympathetic to France or Germany and would probably be willing to learn at least some basic Welsh if the BBC and the UK school system actually introduced it. This is what makes me suspect that actually people are dragging their feet, since they want to maintain control over the language and not let it become a wider phenonmena which could slip out of their control - in the same way as 'American English' has taken over from 'British English' as the 'standard' in many places.


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## me_again (May 8, 2004)

mmmmm the welsh?? having to work in wales,and seeing first hand their treatment of 'outsiders' i'd have to say i'm with ann robinson on this one.
Welsh culture huh?? all i see is english football club shirts worn,and never heard anyone speaking welsh in the canteen...The welsh can keep wales,dont they know too much grass is bad for you!!


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## Hollis (May 8, 2004)

I can't really be arsed with this thread anymore.. 

What I would say though.. is that the last time I was in Wales - 3-4 years ago - down in a village near Brecon - I had a great laugh with aload of pissed up taffs in the afternoon.  They were suitably derogotory about their country  "there's nothing to do in this place except get pissed, boyo".. And that's the way I like it..


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## editor (May 8, 2004)

TeeJay said:
			
		

> But the Queen is their head of state. When a Welsh athlete competes in the Olympics they march under the UK union flag and listen to the national anthem when they win a medal.


Err, I don't think athletes in the British athletics team are representative of the average Welsh person.

Unlike English fans, you won't hear Welsh fans singing 'God Save The Queen' or 'Rule Britannia'.

In fact, next time you're in Wales, try starting up a rousing chorus of 'God Save The Queen' at any large gathering of people and see how many people join in with you...


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## ernestolynch (May 8, 2004)

wear a crash helmet and have a getaway car running outside mind....


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## editor (May 8, 2004)

me_again said:
			
		

> mmmmm the welsh?? having to work in wales,and seeing first hand their treatment of 'outsiders' i'd have to say i'm with ann robinson on this one.
> Welsh culture huh?? all i see is english football club shirts worn,and never heard anyone speaking welsh in the canteen...The welsh can keep wales,dont they know too much grass is bad for you!!


Isn't there a word for people who form negative and derogatory opinions about entire cultures and nations based on their own tiny set of personal experiences?


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## Pingu (May 8, 2004)

shall we piss in his pasta?


Although I am Welsh you wouldnt know it if you met me, I have a scouse(ish) accent and dont have cymru am byth tattooed on the back of my neck.

I lived for a short while in a small village just outside of Llanrwst, its a farming community and whilst not quite up there with parts of Caernarfon it wasnt exactly noted for its tollerance of the english. When I first moved there (its was a mates house and I needed somewhere to live and also to get away from everything for a while) no-one knew I was Welsh.

So you have a small farming community thats plagued by,mainly, english squaddies from the camp at Capel Currig, seeing a "scouser" move into a house that could have been occupied by a local lad... A recipe for disaster (or at least a good kicking every now and then). However I made an effort to integrate into the local community. My Welsh is patchy but I was accepted as an OK bloke who made an effort to fit in with the local community. Over a period of a few weeks the whole english thing was forgotten and I became just another member of the village community. I even joined in the slagging off of "imports" who made no effort to integrate. Yes I am Welsh (and very proud of it) but I wanted the people to accept me for who I was rather than just because I was Welsh - to this day I dont think they knew I was Welsh

The point of all this? Its not who you are or where you are from that causes the problems its your actions. I would guess that even ern would not think as badly about an english person who moved into his road provided that they made an effort to integrate and belong to the local community.

I fully understand the whole "forcing house prices up" thing but the flip side of this is there are Welsh people obviously prepared to sell to the rich "imports". 100% of the blame for the inflation can not be placed at the feet of the Sais.


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## TeeJay (May 8, 2004)

editor said:
			
		

> Isn't there a word for people who form negative and derogatory opinions about entire cultures and nations based on their own tiny set of personal experiences?


Ernestolynchs?


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## Dr. Christmas (May 8, 2004)

Random said:
			
		

> Cornwal is officially in England.



Er, sorry, that's bollocks.

Cornwall is a duchy ('Duke of Cornwall' is another of Charlie Big-Ears' many pointless official titles) and Cornwall has a roughly equivalent *legal* status to Scotland and Wales.

It's just that Westminster chooses to ignore it or downplay it (there was a separate Cornwall office until the 80s which the Tories abolished).

Culturally many people _perceive_ Cornwall to be a part of England but _legally_ it's not.


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## Dr. Christmas (May 9, 2004)

*Sorry, couldn't resist....*

_Teyr hannas Kernewek eth dhe Loundres hedhyw rag keskusulya gans an governans a-dro dhe'n Konvenshon Europek. Rag lies blydhen, kenedhlow kepar ha'n Skotyon yn Ulster hag erell re gavas skoedhyans arghansek rag aga gonisogeth, byttegyns pupprys Kernow o gesys a-denewan. Hedhyw, Kslr Bert Biscoe, Dr Nigel Hicks ha John Angarrack a ros kas Kernow. Herwydh Mr Angarrack, kemmerys yn ta ens gans an venysters. Dell grys ev, yma chons krev lemmyn bos skoedhyans ow tos dhe Gernow kyns re bell rag dyski agan gonisogeth ha taves y'gan skolyow, hag arghans rag an media keffrys. Ny wra pub tra hwarvos yn uskis gans taklow a'n par ma, mes herwydh govenek an gaskyrghoryon, yn blydhen po diw, y fydhyn ni ow kweles an studh ow tos ha bos gwell, hag arghans rag kowethasow kepar ha Kowethas An Yeth ha Kesva an Taves._

The above is an extract from a Cornish language news site, featuring a meeting recently between political and cultural activists from Kernow, and officials from the Home Office. As well as things like the language devolution was discussed extensively, and although no guarantees were given, the Kernow delegation left feeling much progress had been made on 'official' recognition of Cornish cultural & political difference from central government. This arises partly out of the recognition & guarantee of minority languages/cultures from the European Convention process.


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## TeeJay (May 9, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> Cornwall is a duchy ('Duke of Cornwall' is another of Charlie Big-Ears' many pointless official titles) and Cornwall has a roughly equivalent *legal* status to Scotland and Wales.


So does the "Duchy of Cornwall" actually cover *all* of Cornwall or just large parts of it? Maybe you could take up the issue with "old big ears" himself?


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## Dr. Christmas (May 9, 2004)

> The Duchy of Cornwall refers to the land owned by the Duke of Cornwall, and not to the County of Cornwall. As far as I can ascertain the Duchy owns 51,885 hectares, mostly in the south of England (and not necessarily all in Cornwall, in fact over half the estate is on Dartmoor in Devon) , which is run on a commercial basis - tenanted out to some 200 farms, plus 2400 acres of woodland, a few castles and mineral rights over the whole county.



but also



> In 1760 the Crown gave up its estates to the nation in exchange for an income, but the Duchy of Cornwall estates were not included in this deal. The power of the Duchy politically can be seen in the fact that Cornwall returned 44 MP's to parliament until 1832 - the same number as the whole of Scotland. Today Cornwall is represented by only 5 MP's in a much larger House of Commons.



Thus the status of both the 'Duchy' and 'County' is legally ambiguous and certainly apart from thr rest of England in a manner similar to other 'Celtic' nations. The laws recognising the Cornish Stannary parliament have never been repealed. During the Poll tax protests of the late 80s/early 90s, the CSP issued shares in a company called 'the Cornish Tin Miner's company' or some such which many people bought one pound shares in. In doing so, they laid legal claim to an exemption of Cornish tinners to English taxes. The legal status was not challenged in court by the UK govt.

There's no internet source for this before you come back sqwauking for an internet link, but it is in the recently published history of Mebyon Kernow by Bernard Deacon & others ( it's on the UK politics reading list somwhere)


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## TeeJay (May 9, 2004)

Dr. Christmas said:
			
		

> There's no internet source for this before you come back sqwauking for an internet link, but it is in the recently published history of Mebyon Kernow by Bernard Deacon & others ( it's on the UK politics reading list somwhere)


I don't know why you think I would be "squawking" about anything, and I don't understand why you choose to be so rude without any provocation. It kind of devalues what you say, the facts of which seem fair enough. All I did was ask for clarification about the Duchy of Cornwall, and I am very interested that over 50% of it is actually in Devon. I wonder what percentage of Cornwall the estate owns?


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## ernestolynch (May 9, 2004)

You do squawk though.


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## Gwyn ha Du (May 9, 2004)

The ownership of the Duchy is v. ambiguous: the Duchy is secretive and unco-operative about questions of ownership, land distribution, etc.

I recommend John Angarrack's books _Our Future is History_ and _Breaking the Chains_ for more details on the 'constitutional' position Dr C mentions.


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## zog (May 11, 2004)

i found that recently welsh speakers in my area were on the increase. all getting tasty jobs in s4c and the assembly. in fact they seemed to price me out of the area i used to live in. down here it seems a very middle class language. when i worked in the mines and when i was a steelworker i never knew one welshy.

should we be burning out the second home owning welsh speakers from pontcanna?


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## llantwit (May 11, 2004)

zog said:
			
		

> i found that recently welsh speakers in my area were on the increase. all getting tasty jobs in s4c and the assembly. in fact they seemed to price me out of the area i used to live in. down here it seems a very middle class language. when i worked in the mines and when i was a steelworker i never knew one welshy.
> 
> should we be burning out the second home owning welsh speakers from pontcanna?


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## durruti02 (May 11, 2004)

it's a bit scary some of the ignorence on here to the history of the welsh language ..

my dad only learnt english at school and as he grew up ..his home language was welsh ...and this in a w/c family in an industrial town ... he remembers the prejudice there was against speaking welsh and the punishment from teachers for doing so ... this is not a language that no one wanted ... it was for hundreds of years a language being exterminated by laws (founded on prejudice and cultural memories) made in westminster ...  .. as time went by of course it became more irrelevant to the ordinary people ... you couldn't buy a newspaper in welsh ..you couldn't listen to radio or watch tv in welsh ..or bank or fill in tax forms in your native tongue so what was the point in your kids speaking welsh??? ..welsh became a language that survived to a large extent in the chapels ( as did the irish resistence in the roman church)  ... many socialists in the south also saw the language as being divisive .. this makes sense , but to be honest this is not true .. many swfed/num branches acted bilingually up into the 20ts quite happily and in many parts of the world bi or multi lingualism is taken for granted ... e.g catalunya..switzerland .. my dad is bilingual as are most immigrants to england and they think nothing of it .. it is only the people of the ruling nation that have a problem with having to learn more than the state language 

i am  not however a nationalist ... what i belive in is autonomy .. in many parts of wales that means struggles for the langauge, and against second homes ... it is clear that local and MG objections to second homes are not racist .. foreigners ( did you know lovely saxons that your word for the west britons was er foreigner or in your language ..welsh!!!) who in welsh speaking areas who want to be part of the community are welcomed .. especially if they are young ..

there is also a big problem with welsh as a national language ... as zog illustrates, though i think there is a good line in the RS Thomas poem for what he says .. clearly welsh is a real minority lanaguage ... i am not sure that having an objective of everyone speaking welsh is neccessary or welcome ... also clearly though, there are still many obstacles to welsh speakers  which should be removed .. i belive wales can become a strong multi cultural community drawing on all it's cultures as part of a wider britain and europe and world!


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## Seahorse (May 15, 2004)

There's a vast difference between the jingoistic, violent, xenophobic nationalism of right-wing parties and the various republican/independence movements of Wales. It is a classic Tory/right-wing slur to label Plaid Cymru a 'nationalist' party. That's like calling the ANC a nationalist party during the apartheid years, when they were merely seeking liberation from a colonial power. I'm surprised there are so many unreconstructed British Nationalists on this forum.


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## zog (May 15, 2004)

pissing myself laughing

plaid cymru = the anc

once we sent david ellis thomas to barry island for 20 years we can think about it. is pontcanna the first bantusan?


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## ernestolynch (May 15, 2004)

dafydd elis thomas you racist prick


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## zog (May 15, 2004)

temper temper


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## fanta (May 16, 2004)

ernestolynch said:
			
		

> But we will not be intimidated, accused or threatened. England's done that for 400 years. No more. Never again. The price of loosing our Nation is too high a price to pay. To save Cymru, many brave Warriors are ready to shed  blood. The Police will stand behind us, our Army and our communities- England think twice!   Beware, we are no longer your slaves. Fe godwn ni eto!




Stirring stuff Ernie, and I think the message is getting through to the youth:

_'The Welsh language and identity is being threatened by the white flight of native-born Britons who are moving to Wales to escape the growing number of immigrants entering England,'_

 - Jennifer Griffin. Founder of Young BNP Supporter's Group for children aged 14 to 16, a key organiser of the Young BNP's Camp Excalibur and a helper at the party's Red, White And Blue annual family festival.

Fantastic stuff! Tomorrow belongs to you Ernie! 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/farright/story/0,11981,1218008,00.html


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