# Time to Dig Coal Again?



## lewislewis (Oct 14, 2005)

Labour MP for Ogmore, Huw Irranca-Davies, has suggested that the UK should begin extracting some of Wales remaining 250 million tonnes of coal to run a 'clean coal' energy programme for the future. Davies believes that damage to the landscape and environment can be limited, but i'm not convinced.
However if a 'clean coal' strategy does exist, this could be an interesting opportunity to revitalise our industrial towns and ports that were ruined by Thatcher. Wales was the first country to ever employ more people in industry than on farms, and a revival of Wales' industrial tradition is an interesting prospect.
What do people think?


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## niclas (Oct 15, 2005)

Anything proposed by a New Labour toady like Irranca the wanka should be treated with suspicion. This is no exception.

The potential for a sustainable energy policy for Wales is there - based on renewables such as hydro, solar, biomass and wind power as well as technologies that are still developing. 

But it will take a generation to develop and there will probably still be a need for fossil fuels over that period. Over the same generation, coal will become "economic" to mine again as oil and gas get much, much more expensive. 

Uwanca is probably flying a kite for opencast mining - the cheapest way to get coal out of the ground. No doubt New Labour's been lobbied by some firm who fancies a bit of the coal action now prices are more favourable. 

But do we need the coal - any more than we need the oil and gas in the Irish Sea? All depends on political will to develop renewables

A final question for Irranca... who the feck wants to go down a mine again? My guess is - like the abattoirs and food factories of this green and pleasant land - the people doing the dirty work will be Polish and Portuguese migrant workers.


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## nwnm (Oct 15, 2005)

You are probably right niclas, there probably are some private companies lobbying for open cast mines.

"The potential for a sustainable energy policy for Wales is there - based on renewables such as hydro, solar, biomass and wind power as well as technologies that are still developing. But it will take a generation to develop and there will probably still be a need for fossil fuels over that period. Over the same generation, coal will become "economic" to mine again as oil and gas get much, much more expensive"

Even more worrying is the lobbying of the nuclear fuel industry who are using a similar argument, 'it will take a generation to develope alternative energy'. They are even trying to portray nuclear power as a pro environmental alternative! No carbon emissions y'know..... I've always thought that 2 heads are better than one - but not on the same person


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## Combustible (Oct 15, 2005)

nwnm said:
			
		

> . They are even trying to portray nuclear power as a pro environmental alternative! No carbon emissions y'know.....


Whatever the motive of the nuclear power industry that is true to a certain extent.  Now whether or not the nuclear power stations are in the hands of the nuclear industry is a different matter.


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## Bernie Gunther (Oct 15, 2005)

Nuclear only looks like a good option if you fiddle the figures to ignore all the oil you burn mining the ore, processing it, extracting the uranium, purifying it, building the power station and so on. Even then, you only get more energy out as electricity than you put in (mostly) as oil, if you start with ores of high purity, of which there aren't enough to make nuclear a viable long-term option. That's before you start considering the security and waste disposal problems associated with the nuclear industry. 

They _do_ have expensive PR guys though, so facts probably won't make a huge amount of difference here.


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## niclas (Oct 15, 2005)

Spot on...

Even the best PR guys would find it difficult to factor in the cost of anti-aircraft guns outside the next Wylfa or Trawsfynydd


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## lewislewis (Oct 16, 2005)

Eugh i don't want dirty power, and i include nuclear in this classification.

Renewables all the way.


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## lewislewis (Oct 16, 2005)

Also if we become a coal resource for England this will tie us further into the Union : (


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## nwnm (Oct 16, 2005)

The UK ruling class are more interested in exploiting cheap Polish coalfields at the moment......


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## davesgcr (Oct 22, 2005)

There are a couple of major opencast expansions taking off - one near Merthyr and one near Brynamman. The only good thing is that it will be mostly moved by rail - with the reopening of the line through Ammanford being one of them.

There are vast supplioes of coal left in Wales - and even in the 1970s there were plans for a superpit near Margam / Port Talbot. If the economics go rihgt I dont see why they dont reopen some pits - though hopefully with the best technology and less impact on both people (workers) and the environment.Its got to be better than using child labour in Colombia or similar.  

Say what you wlll (and my dad worked 44 yrs in the industry so I am qualified to say this) - the renumeration after nationalisation wasnt bad - just conditions could have been much better.


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## Dai Sheep (Oct 25, 2005)

I cant see it happening here...the geology of the South Wales coalfield and labour costs means it is too expensive to extract coal from deep mines. Most of the best seems of coal were worked years ago. That said, it would be great to get the industry going again if there was a viable away, as long as people dont become over reliant on  the industry like  before.


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## zog (Oct 25, 2005)

I worked for the NCB up to 88 and even though they were closing everything down then,  there were still viable reservs left. It was a political decision not a purely economic one. 

Yea, the money was good when it was the NCB. I wouldn't trust a private company to pay anything decent.


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## Col_Buendia (Oct 25, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> I worked for the NCB up to 88 and even though they were closing everything down then,  there were still viable reservs left. It was a political decision not a purely economic one.
> 
> Yea, the money was good when it was the NCB. I wouldn't trust a private company to pay anything decent.



I didn't think they would have let you down a mine, Zog, at 88 years of age?

What did your grandchildren think?


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## nwnm (Oct 25, 2005)

anyone see this? http://icwales.icnetwork.co.uk/0100...generation---tyrone-o-sullivan-name_page.html 

Comments?


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## davesgcr (Oct 25, 2005)

The best hopes would be the Margam area - coastal plain - good geology apparantly. Betws New Mine nr Ammanford closed 2 years ago - but only sunk in 1974 - state of the art with monorail transport etc.

Plenty of reserves left - in the meantime they plan to recycle the old coal tips near Dowlais - full of small coal as in the 19thC miners were only paid for large lump coal so anything smaller than an apple sized lump went into the waste and onto the tips.

There may well be a new coal age - but not too soon.


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## zog (Oct 26, 2005)

> What did your grandchildren think?



please don't mock. my eldest is now of child rearing age. It's a touchy subject in the zog household.


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## Belushi (Oct 26, 2005)

According to this report Corus are considering mining coal at their site in Port Talbot.

As others have said there are large coal reserves left in South Wales, the decision to destroy the industry was political as much as economic. South Wales still produces a loot of coal by opencast mining; a hugely destructive process introduced as an emergency measure during WW2 I believe.


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## davesgcr (Oct 27, 2005)

Thats interesting about Port Talbot...thanks.

Opencast mining was sanctioned immediately after WW2 due to the crises of low coal production and massive demand .Turned out of course to be a ot cheaper than deep minng - especially with technological improvements i diggers and earth shifting material etc.(American inspired) - makes one hell of a mess of the environment and its never the same after so called "reinstatement" - any one unfortunate enough to live within a mile or so of one can vbouch for the effect on quality of life.


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## Belushi (Oct 27, 2005)

> any one unfortunate enough to live within a mile or so of one can vbouch for the effect on quality of life.



Aye, my dad lives in the Dulais Valley and they have a huge one, with a giant spoils tip looming over the village.

I hate the weaselly term 'opencast' and all, we should call it by its proper name, strip mining.


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## durruti02 (Dec 3, 2005)

couple of questions 

 has there been any advances in technology both for the environmnet and the worker that would make deep mining ok again??

and q.2 what was the reason cynheidre closed any ideas??

 and amazed that there was a mine at ammanford still going 2 years ago .. pased me by and get this .. yuppies in ammanford!!!! i suppose its on the motorway  

" ...At the time of the closure it was estimated that there are still 2 million tonnes of known coal reserves at Betws with another 5 million tonnes in untested seams. Yet within a year a yuppie housing estate was built on the site. .." 
http://www.terrynorm.ic24.net/ammanford collieries.htm


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## davesgcr (Dec 4, 2005)

The Ammanford (Betws) mine story is a very sad one - my old man was one of the undermangers there and it was the the pinacle of his career to develop and work in such a great drift mine  - they even had a a monorail and the best equipment going.Very good on the environment too in terms of visual impact etc.

The accountants wrote it off - it was "sold" to an MBO which used "traditional" methods - but it foundered due to the B**cks of not being able to get insurance.

So vast reserves of excellent high grade coal and the means of getting it pretty well thrown away.I suppose they could get at it again if the will was there.

Just glad my father never knew what happened to his workplace - it would have been a crushing dissapointment to him and all he worked for in his 44 years of service.

Ammanford incidentally is quite a reasonable place - which having lost its raison d'etre of coal is reinventing itslef as a commuter and service settlement - nonetheless it could do with some well paid local jobs in coal whcih doesnt involve ripping the environment to bits through opencast (which the Govt clearly thinks is the way forward -as well as importing through ports from anywhere else in the world)...

And as for gas imports - dont get me going ..


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## durruti02 (Dec 17, 2005)

i've relatives from brynamman way and a mate's rels are from cwmllynfell .. so i had a little look at a map the other day and it is really depressing seeing cwmllynfell surrounded by 3 massive open cast mines


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## davesgcr (Dec 18, 2005)

Too right its surrounded - and right on the Black Mountain / Brecon Beacons National Park too ! 

The area has been endlessly opencasted since the 1960s and the most recent one reckons on 12m tons of coal being extracted.

Only saving grace is it that its 50% moved by rail - hence the repoening of the local railway.

Note British coal deep mining in profit - so there may be hope if gas prices etc keep rising / become politically difficult.


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## fanta (Dec 18, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> What do people think?



Who in their right mind would want to be a miner?

I've been down a pit before on a site visit and that was enough. I'd rather stack shelves in shops than spend shifts down there.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Dec 18, 2005)

davesgcr said:
			
		

> There are a couple of major opencast expansions taking off - one near Merthyr and one near Brynamman. The only good thing is that it will be mostly moved by rail - with the reopening of the line through Ammanford being one of them.
> 
> There are vast supplioes of coal left in Wales - and even in the 1970s there were plans for a superpit near Margam / Port Talbot. If the economics go rihgt I dont see why they dont reopen some pits - though hopefully with the best technology and less impact on both people (workers) and the environment.Its got to be better than using child labour in Colombia or similar.
> 
> Say what you wlll (and my dad worked 44 yrs in the industry so I am qualified to say this) - the renumeration after nationalisation wasnt bad - just conditions could have been much better.



The coal is there but if the only way they intend to mine it is opencast they can keep it.
My dad worked as a senior planning officer in opencast mine projects in glynneath when I was younger and as far as I know as a nature lover and member of friends of the earth was appalled by it all


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## Dhimmi (Dec 18, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> However if a 'clean coal' strategy does exist, this could be an interesting opportunity to revitalise our industrial towns and ports that were ruined by Thatcher. Wales was the first country to ever employ more people in industry than on farms, and a revival of Wales' industrial tradition is an interesting prospect.
> What do people think?



It's a bit of a nostalgic dream though isn't it? Twenty years have passed since the NCB had a dedicated and economic workforce (which was the envy of the global mining industry) and the infrastructure and pitheads have all long gone.


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## lewislewis (Dec 18, 2005)

Dhimmi said:
			
		

> It's a bit of a nostalgic dream though isn't it? Twenty years have passed since the NCB had a dedicated and economic workforce (which was the envy of the global mining industry) and the infrastructure and pitheads have all long gone.



I agree. I don't support a return to mining, don't know why people think I do.


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## Dhimmi (Dec 18, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> I agree. I don't support a return to mining, don't know why people think I do.



I could support nostalgic dreams though. For years I hoped to see every Thatcher cut repaired... never happened though.


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## zog (Dec 19, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Who in their right mind would want to be a miner?
> 
> I've been down a pit before on a site visit and that was enough. I'd rather stack shelves in shops than spend shifts down there.




Having done both, I'd choose the mines if the pay was as it used to be. I saw it as a step up in the world going from shite shop work (Dixons) to the NCB, purely for financial reasons.

I doubt that if the pits were re-opened as private companies that wages would be comparable to how they were before.


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## fanta (Dec 19, 2005)

zog said:
			
		

> Having done both, I'd choose the mines if the pay was as it used to be. I saw it as a step up in the world going from shite shop work (Dixons) to the NCB, purely for financial reasons.
> 
> I doubt that if the pits were re-opened as private companies that wages would be comparable to how they were before.



I doubt the wages would be as good as they were. 

And anyway, even at the face I don't suppose the wages were _that_ good for such a dirty, physically hard, stressful and dangerous job. 

Day in day out that hellish drop into utter darkness, often working while either too cold or too hot. Probably not seeing daylight for long periods of time if you're on days in the winter. So much _worse_ than the factory floor.

Fuck that, I'd stick with the crappy boring shop work and go to college/training part time.

Let those who wax lyrical about having working mines be the first to put on their pit-hats.


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## lewislewis (Dec 19, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> Let those who wax lyrical about having working mines be the first to put on their pit-hats.



Like Tyrone O'Sullivan?


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## fanta (Dec 20, 2005)

I think that, like the military, anybody who is, er, shall we say _enthusiastic_ enough about wanting to work down the pit should be allowed to...

I mean, for fuck sake, just listen to the man opining about the last remaining pit in Wales :

_"This has never been just a place I've come to work," says O'Sullivan, 56, a veteran of six strikes between 1969 and 1984. "My great grandfather and two of his sons were killed in mining accidents. My father died at Tower when I was 17. I've seen 14 men die within arm's length of me -- more than many soldiers see in battle. But what else could I be but a miner? A cow gives birth to a calf, not a sheep."_

Oh dear. That is precisely why you don't want to be a miner!!!   

But then of course, is he not more a manager in a comfy office now than an actual miner sweating underground!?

Hmmm.


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## lewislewis (Dec 21, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> I think that, like the military, anybody who is, er, shall we say _enthusiastic_ enough about wanting to work down the pit should be allowed to...
> 
> I mean, for fuck sake, just listen to the man opining about the last remaining pit in Wales :
> 
> ...



No, he worked underground.

Edit- Typo.


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## Karac (Dec 21, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> But then of course, is he not more a manager in a comfy office now than an actual miner sweating underground!?
> 
> Hmmm.


AFAIK he was a major part in setting up a workers co-op in Tower colliery rather than it being closed down.
Dont know exactly how old he is now but he must be knocking on-prob not coal face material.


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## fanta (Dec 22, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> No, he worked underground.



I know he *worked* underground.

I said: _But then of course, is he not more a manager in a comfy office now than an actual miner sweating underground!?_

I'm asking does he work underground *now*?


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## lewislewis (Dec 22, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> I know he *worked* underground.
> 
> I said: _But then of course, is he not more a manager in a comfy office now than an actual miner sweating underground!?_
> 
> I'm asking does he work underground *now*?



Mate he's about sixty.


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## fanta (Dec 22, 2005)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Mate he's about sixty.



So the answer is no.

And quite right, too. That is my whole point - being a miner is such a dirty, damn hard, dangerous job that you've got to be mad to want to do it for the love of the job.

Would you fancy it?


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## lewislewis (Dec 24, 2005)

fanta said:
			
		

> So the answer is no.
> 
> And quite right, too. That is my whole point - being a miner is such a dirty, damn hard, dangerous job that you've got to be mad to want to do it for the love of the job.
> 
> Would you fancy it?



No way!


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## Redstar (Dec 27, 2005)

So what's the alternative? The point is North Sea oil and gas production has peaked and most of our Nuclear capacity is due to be decommissioned by 2020 (Wylfa B I think is the last Nuclear power station in Cymru - due to be decommissioned by 2010).

 We can't have it all ways. Either we start implementing new energy sources NOW - or we take a significant cut in our standard of living. Take your pick, peeps.


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## Pickman's model (Dec 27, 2005)

burn the rich.


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## nwnm (Dec 27, 2005)

"burn the rich." wot - and set fire to all that methane? imagine the contribution to global warming


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## davesgcr (Jan 30, 2007)

Anyone read todays Guardian ? 

Great article on the reopening of 2 mines near Aberpergwm - with maybe another 2 on the way. Million tons of best Welsh estimated production this year and the best thing is that a whole tranche of ex miners are back in work and seemingly enjoying the old job. 

Plans for  more mines and maybe 4 clean technology power stations. Even the long dreamed of superpit near Margam may be on the cards.

I was right - dammit - I was right. Economics are now in favour.!   

Lets train another generation they say - but lets be realistic on environmenal and social grounds.

PS Even the Ffestiniog Rly is now burning coal not oil - lets hope its Welsh.!!


(pours red wine to celebrate)


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## la ressistance (Jan 30, 2007)

davesgcr said:
			
		

> Anyone read todays Guardian ?
> 
> )




i did,and i loved it!
thank god wales is getting it's mines back.and reading how happy the miners at unity are to be back in the job made my day.

thatchers gonna die,and we'll have our mines back.
I LOVE IT


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## davesgcr (Jan 30, 2007)

My dad would have loved it - he did 41 years and enjoyed the job - one of the guys in the article worked with him.

Its really , really made my day !!!!!


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## rhys gethin (Jan 30, 2007)

I doubt there's many of us who don't have mining in the family background - but wasn't the point the long tradition of solidarity and the communities based on the pits?   Seen JUST as a job, and under modern conditions, it is okay for those old blokes in the Guardian picture maybe, but would you want your kids doing it?   What's gone's gone, I reckon.


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## la ressistance (Jan 30, 2007)

rhys gethin said:
			
		

> but would you want your kids doing it?   .




i'd be proud of my kids to be honest.
it's a hard back breaking job,but i personally would be far happier down a mine than in an office.


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## llantwit (Jan 30, 2007)

la ressistance said:
			
		

> i'd be proud of my kids to be honest.
> it's a hard back breaking job,but i personally would be far happier down a mine than in an office.


Then you're nuts. I'd have to be at rock fucking bottom to think of doing that job. You sure you're not romanticising it a bit?


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## zog (Jan 31, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Then you're nuts. I'd have to be at rock fucking bottom to think of doing that job. You sure you're not romanticising it a bit?



All depends on the money


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## llantwit (Jan 31, 2007)

It'd have to be pretty good, wouldn't it?
An' there's nothing to suggest it would be. Starting from a clean slate in a society without a strong labour movement, a market that means you compete with cheaper labour from abroad, and with no (or only a very weakened) miners' union, they could pay fuck all.

Most of the things that contribute to the pride the Rhys Gethin mentioned were to do with things from outside of the actual back-breaking dangerous work of hewing bits of fossil-fuel from the ground lump by lump... it was to do with cameraderie in the face of adversity, a community in which people had a place and a job, the trickle back of money from the mines, and a strong union that struggled for years to get better working conditions and decent pay.

If there was a re-opening of the mines the situation would be very different. The (weak) union would be dealing with a number of private mine owners (probably large multinationals), they wouldn't be bargaining with one nationalised company. This would mean that any kind of national collective bargaining would be very difficult if not impossible. Also, the scale of the welsh/UK industry compared with the size of the companies would be very small, and it would be a small part of a supply that includes lots of coal from abroad, so even if there was an attempt at colllective bargaining with numerous companies it would be from a weak position.


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## llantwit (Jan 31, 2007)

Plus, it's probably be all open cast, anyway, so definitely not as well paid, and even worse for the local environment.

And the most important point, for fucks sake - why are we even talking about digging up more pure carbon to burn up and further fuck the fragile world we inhabit. We should be planning and building small-scale units for the production of renewable energy, not digging up more potential carbon dioxide.


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## Belushi (Jan 31, 2007)

My Dad used to go mental when my brothers and I said we wanted to be Miners like him - that was a very common attitude in the valleys, kids encouraged to work hard at school and do 'better' than your parents.

Saying that some of the lads I grew up with would have been better off going down the mines if the jobs had still been there than the long term unemployment, drugs culture etc they ended up in.

I was down there last year and things do seem a lot better now than they were in the Eighties/early nineties.


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## Dic Penderyn (Jan 31, 2007)

totally with llantwt on this one. 

Max boyce summed it up very well with 'duw, its hard'

"They came down here from England
Because our output's low.
Briefcases full of bank clerks
That had never been below.
And they'll close the valley's oldest mine
Pretending that they're sad.
But don't you worry, Butty bach,
We're really very glad.

My clean-clothes locker's empty now,
I've thrown away the key.
And I've sold my boots and muffler
And my lampcheck 153.
But I can't forget the times we had,
The laughing midst the fear,
'Cos every time I cough I get
A mining souvenir.

I took my old helmet home with me,
Filled it full of earth,
And I planted little flowers there -
They grew for all their worth.
And it's hanging in the glasshouse now,
A living memory,
Reminding me they could have grown
In vases over me.

'Cos it's hard, Duw, it's hard
Harder than they will ever know.
And it's they must take the blame,
The price of coal's the same.
And the pithead baths is a supermarket now."


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## davesgcr (Aug 2, 2007)

They raised the first 5 tons of coal at Cwmgwrach yesterday ......

Recruitment is apparently a problem and 3 year apprentices on offer ! 

Resurgance of the industry ?


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## editor (Aug 2, 2007)

News report here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6925416.stm and there's a video of the first coal coming up.  Good job the railway's still there too!

There's lovely for you. Isn't it?


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## davesgcr (Aug 2, 2007)

And even better - they are actively talking about using the railway to shift the million tons a year production.

There's lovely .....


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