# Welsh internal flights



## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

I've just read that climate protestors may travel to Cardiff airport:

ICwales linkage

Cardiff is target because the Assembly is supporting internal flights rather than other options.

What fucks me off about this is that they obviously know nothing about the welsh transport situation.

If we were in a prosperous area of England you can bet your life we'd have a decent north / south motorway by now. Instead it takes 5 hours to travel from Cardiff to Caernarfon by car. An astonishing fact when you take into account that I can travel to London in two and half and thats further away than Caernarfon.

Don't get me started on the rail option as that goes out of Wales before coming back into Wales again.

So the reason why flying is becoming the best option for internal welsh travel is London centric spending of the english government.

Go picket them to give us more money for a motorway network.


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## editor (Aug 14, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Go picket them to give us more money for a motorway network.


Surely a better option would be to call for reopening some of the cross-Wales rail routes trashed in the 60s and the upgrading of current rail services across Wales (and introducing cheaper fares)?

The last thing Wales needs is dirty great big motorways trashing the countryside.


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely a better option would be to call for reopening some of the cross-Wales rail routes trashed in the 60s and the upgrading of current rail services across Wales (and introducing cheaper fares)?
> 
> The last thing Wales needs is dirty great big motorways trashing the countryside.



We need both tbh.

Motorways aid regeneration. Look at all the new housing etc. they have built along the M4 corridor. Too much actually as the M4 can't cope with all the development being focused around it and is getting congested as a result.

We need a new motorway to facilitate further regeneration and sustainable housing without adding to congestion (creating additional carbon footprint through hundreds of cars idling away in traffic jams but going nowhere).


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## Ranbay (Aug 14, 2007)

or just move ?


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

Marius - I've never heard so much crap talked in just two posts.
We need a new motorway like we need a daily kick in the nads. As you've just inadvertantly observed with yer comments about the M4 motorways cause more congestion in the long run, not less. You build more roads more cars wil use them - it's always been the case.
We need new, imaginative, and sustainable transport options for Wales, and re-opening the railways and providing better, greener, cheaper rail travel is probably the best way to go. That would lead to more sustainable growtth, not more of what we've got around the M4 corridor.
To suggest that internal flights WITHIN WALES (!!!!) are an option is truly putting the mental back in environmental. People who take short-haul flights like that should be given ASBOs.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Motorways aid regeneration. Look at all the new housing etc. they have built along the M4 corridor. Too much actually as the M4 can't cope with all the development being focused around it and is getting congested as a result.


Like you say, motorways have always led to and facilitated further congestion. The history of road building since the 60s in the country has been one great big long march towards gridlock which is postponed every decade or so with yet more road building. More roads don't solve congestion, and they only ever lead to more cars, which is the last thing we need at the moment.



			
				Marius said:
			
		

> We need a new motorway to facilitate further regeneration and sustainable housing without adding to congestion (creating additional carbon footprint through hundreds of cars idling away in traffic jams but going nowhere).


The carbon footprint you talk about would only get bigger with more roads. It doesn't matter whether cars are standing still or driving around, they produce the same amount of carbon, and more growth in the car market can in no way be described as leading to 'sustainable' anything.


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Marius - I've never heard so much crap talked in just two posts.
> We need a new motorway like we need a daily kick in the nads. As you've just inadvertantly observed with yer comments about the M4 motorways cause more congestion in the long run, not less. You build more roads more cars wil use them - it's always been the case.
> We need new, imaginative, and sustainable transport options for Wales, and re-opening the railways and providing better, greener, cheaper rail travel is probably the best way to go. That would lead to more sustainable growtth, not more of what we've got around the M4 corridor.
> To suggest that internal flights WITHIN WALES (!!!!) are an option is truly putting the mental back in environmental. People who take short-haul flights like that should be given ASBOs.



No you've missed the point. Its lack of any other alternative motorway thats caused congestion along the M4. Wales has concentrated all its attention on the one and only motorway.
We aren't getting any more cars in Wales. What is happening is that the cars that already exist in Wales are moving to new developments along the M4 as their owners are led to believe they'll have easy access to jobs along the M4.
Businesses set up along the M4 because thats where the workers are now.

Cars that would otherwise have traveled non stop from home to work are now stuck in jams for ages creating more polution and consuming more fuel than they did before.

Its like trying to pour an entire bucket through one straw instead instead of spreading it out using an irrigation system.

An additional motorway would relocate some of this overload and reduce congestion.

Of course I'm missing the other alternative. Something we are experimenting with in Wales. Doing away with zoning and trying to create communities you don't need to travel out of. Your work, shopping and home are all contained with in it. Its going to take decades for such a change in town planning to make a difference over existing communities. Unless we get the bulldozers in.
Trying to find a link but can't. Prince of Wales is involved somehow I remember.


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> It doesn't matter whether cars are standing still or driving around, they produce the same amount of carbon



You are trying to tell me that if I drive a car 30 miles at a consistant 30 mph and that takes me hour I don't produce less carbon that a car that covers the same distance but has its engine running for an additional 30 minutes sat in traffic with the engine running.

Engine on for an hour.
Engine on for an hour and a half.

I know which one i believe gives out more carbon.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> You are trying to tell me that if I drive a car 30 miles at a consistant 30 mph and that takes me hour I don't produce less carbon that a car that covers the same distance but has its engine running for an additional 30 minutes sat in traffic with the engine running.
> 
> Engine on for an hour.
> Engine on for an hour and a half.
> ...


Fair enough - I didn't think that through.
But....


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

There's bags of research which pretty much proves that when you build more roads, congestion eventually catches up. The government has been trying to reduce congestion by building more roads for decades, now. But it's done the opposite. The more roads you build the more car-use exapands to fill them. Traffic levels on UK roads have doubled since 1980, and that's because we've kept building roads and not been investing in public transport. Time after time when a bypass, road or motorway is built or widened in a few years traffic on that road or in that area has increased hugely. 

And this is even without taking climate change into consideration, which should be THE major issue that guides transport policy for this century.

There are loads of things that can be done in the short term to reduce congestion and improve the transport situation.

There should be more emphasis on promoting car-sharing schemes, home working, and initiatives to encourage people to cycle or take buses, trams, and trains for short journeys (around a quarter of all car journeys cover distances of less than 2 miles).

Then we should start in earnest by spending the money we were going to spend on road building (an incredibly expensive affair) on paying for and  promoting cheap, widespread, and more sustainable and publicly accountable public transport. This can be (but doesn't have to be) accompanied by a sophisticated form of road charging which will further fund improvements in public transport, but which doesn't end up taxing the poor off the roads (congestion charging in London has cut traffic by 18%).

Start in the towns, where the problem of congestion is worst, and then invest in rail services between towns so people who don't want to drive their cars have a proper alternative. This would take the pressure off the motorways and free up roads for those who really need to drive. In Wales a priority should also be building or renovating a good (publicly accountable) rail network between the South and the North and West of the country.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

If I knew when and where I'd join plane stupid in protesting at Cardiff Airport tomorrow.
That the assembly is subsidising this shit is an utter disgrace.


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## zog (Aug 14, 2007)

Come on now every one. You're all missing the most fundamental point. It's not about how you get there it's more why would anyone want to travel from South to North Wales in the first place?


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

A rail link might work if you could do what they do with the chunnel. i.e. You are able to park your car on the train and take it with you. Have you tried getting around North Wales without a car? You can't. 

I happen to know that the taxi from the airport in North Wales to the nearest town is more expensive than the flight.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> A rail link might work if you could do what they do with the chunnel. i.e. You are able to park your car on the train and take it with you. Have you tried getting around North Wales without a car? You can't.
> 
> I happen to know that the taxi from the airport in North Wales to the nearest town is more expensive than the flight.



At the moment, yeah. But imagine what it'd be like if the (new) road-building budget was spent on public transport! It'd be great.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> Come on now every one. You're all missing the most fundamental point. It's not about how you get there it's more why would anyone want to travel from South to North Wales in the first place?


Fair comment.


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## rhys gethin (Aug 14, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> Come on now every one. You're all missing the most fundamental point. It's not about how you get there it's more why would anyone want to travel from South to North Wales in the first place?



Aw. come ON - where else would you meet all those lovely Lancastrians who can't pronounce ANY 'Welsh' name and who believe people change languages when they come into pubs?   We could easily cut the carbon footprint by shutting all roads between England and the North and building a decent - short - motorway from Carmarthen to Bangor.   I can't see the point in flying such a tiny distance myself.   Why not use boats, like the ancestors, if the green English forbid us roads?   We mustn't, of course, dream of having what England takes for granted - convenient transport!


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## MrFalafel (Aug 14, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> Come on now every one. You're all missing the most fundamental point. It's not about how you get there it's more why would anyone want to travel from South to North Wales in the first place?


Hey I'll be on the 8:55 flight from Angelsey to Cardiff this Friday. We're going down to watch the Rugby. Its only a 45 minute flight as opposed to 4 hours on the train. Thats the benefit.

And don't worry about this airline lasting too long. Its so incredibly heavily subsidised that once these subsidies are lifted the airline will stop the flights.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 14, 2007)

> *LETHAL WEAPON
> 
> There’s a lethal weapon
> Gleaming bright
> ...



The Assembly government should be building a high speed rail line from North to South.

The M4 will also endanger one of our top wetland wildlife sites.

Blair & Brown and the 4 neo-liberal parties in Wales all support the cutting back of public transport and more road building. More and more roads are not sustainable: we need an alternative. 

Other countries facilitate cycling - in Amsterdam over a quarter of journeys are by bike, in Copenhagen a fifth, in London barely 2%.

In the context of this thread, you might find very interesting a study by Lynn Sloman, this authorative report shows how local schemes such as school travel plans, workplace travel plans, etc., could cut urban traffic from between 15% and 33%. 

www.roadblock.org.uk/resources/LessTrafficWherePeopleLive.pdf

Also on a similar subject, Friends of the Earth did a good study on schemes to replace school buses and the "school-run" with the "walking bus":
www.foe.co.uk/resource/factsheets/walking_bus.pdf 

It is important to realise the detrimental impact that car driving has had on walking, trends in walking have changed.  I was reading a report today that states that 




			
				IEEP report said:
			
		

> One fifth of all journeys (22 per cent) are under one mile, a distance that can be easily carried out by foot. However in 1975/76 the proportion of journeys under one mile made by foot was 86 per cent, in 1985/86 and 1994/95 it was 81 per cent, and in 2005 it fell to 76 per cent. The majority of the remainder of trips under one mile (21 per cent) were by car.
> 
> Therefore, if today all main drivers (amounting to more than 26 million people) reverted to the walking patterns they had before owning a car (ie miles walked by people with no car), at least 11.1 Mt CO2 could be saved, amounting to 15.4 per cent of total emissions from passenger cars.
> 
> ...



Let's be clear, not only are cars fuelling runaway global warming, they are also fuelling obesity.

As Nelson Mandela said, "It's a long _walk _to freedom"

RESPECT campaigns for the money used for New Labour’s £30 billion road building programme and the £9 billion tax break received by the airline industry to be diverted into subsidised bus and train travel - afterall transport is the biggest source of emissions in the UK, yet under New Labour bus and train fares have rocketed while the cost of motoring has gone down!

In Preston, RESPECT councillors have made good progress in passing a major motion promoting public transport, rapid transport systems & trams which now have become part of Preston's overall transport plan.

But I think we also need a massive grassroots campaign to promote . . . walking!


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## MrFalafel (Aug 14, 2007)

Hang on, North Wales has one huge coastal windfarm and another is being built. There's a huge cycle path along the entire coast (that the locals fought against but gov't forced). The welsh mountains are full of wind farms as well. They are doing their bit for the planet to offset. Having a small prop plane with almost 100% utilisation flying back and forth a few times a day probably equates to half a dozen cars currently back-up on the M25.

Its a non-issue, really.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 14, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> And don't worry about this airline lasting too long. Its so incredibly heavily subsidised that once these subsidies are lifted the airline will stop the flights.



The entire air industry is subsidised to the tune of 9 billion pounds.  Railways receive half that - 4.5 billion.  Or they used to, the government has just slashed funding to the railways by 1.5 billion.  Fares will increase, as passengers pay for the cut.  The government is also talking about ending the cap it imposes on prices.  I'm not sure how pricing ordinary people off the railways is going to help tackle runaway global warming?

The first thing that needs to be done is to scrap business flights, then slash train and bus fares.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 14, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> The entire air industry is subsidised to the tune of 9 billion pounds.  Railways receive half that - 4.5 billion.  Or they used to, the government has just slashed funding to the railways by 1.5 billion.  Fares will increase, as passengers pay for the cut.  The government is also talking about ending the cap it imposes on prices.  I'm not sure how pricing ordinary people off the railways is going to help tackle runaway global warming?
> 
> The first thing that needs to be done is to scrap business flights, then slash train and bus fares.



No, what needs to be done to actually have any real effect is the banning of private car usage. Airplanes are a form of public transport and can be used more efficiently than they are now. Private cars are the things that are dumping HUGE amounts of crap in the air poisoning this planet.  Why don't we sprout some balls go for the real problem instead of targetting a tiny fraction of emissions?


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## editor (Aug 14, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Hey I'll be on the 8:55 flight from Angelsey to Cardiff this Friday. We're going down to watch the Rugby. Its only a 45 minute flight as opposed to 4 hours on the train.


Blimey, you sure get around. Four days in Camberwell, and then you're up in Anglesey and then before you know it - you're in Cardiff!


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 14, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Hang on, North Wales has one huge coastal windfarm and another is being built. There's a huge cycle path along the entire coast (that the locals fought against but gov't forced). The welsh mountains are full of wind farms as well. They are doing their bit for the planet to offset. Having a small prop plane with almost 100% utilisation flying back and forth a few times a day probably equates to half a dozen cars currently back-up on the M25.
> 
> Its a non-issue, really.



Wales has the highest CO2 emissions in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6932667.stm, but the First Minister, Rhodri Morgan thinks that clmate change could be good for tourism to Wales!  And totally opposes the Assembly setting binding targets to cut emissions in Wales by 3% every year

Carbon Offsetting is scientifically dubious.

I agree that roads and cars are a big problem.  Hence I mentioned slashing train and bus fares in order to facilitate a transition away from private motoring towards public transport (instead under New Labour train and bus fares have rocketed while the cost of private motoring has gone down).

A good comment by Monbiot on another roadbuilding programme in Wales:




			
				George Monbiot said:
			
		

> When the A55 from Chester to Bangor was upgraded 10 years ago, the people of north Wales were promised it would bring them jobs. It has all but completed the destruction of their residual economy.
> 
> As Friends of the Earth Cymru has pointed out, since the road was finished, the three westernmost counties through which it passes have qualified for funding reserved for Europe's poorest regions. It's not hard to see why. As transport costs are lower than warehousing costs, companies have taken advantage of the faster road link by centralising their depots in England.
> 
> ...






Welsh Energy Plan has been savaged by George Monbiot:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6696915.stm


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## editor (Aug 14, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Airplanes are a form of public transport .


Rarely for low income people.


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Wales has the highest CO2 emissions in the UK



Nothing to do with cars. Thats emissions from houses. 
Wales is a third world country in parts, many thanks to England's rule (and our lack of infrastructure over the decades that England has been building its massive network of roads). Poverty means you can't afford A rated gadgets, the latest energy efficient boiler and expensive insulation (we have grant schemes in Wales for loft insulation as many can't afford it).

There are few modern houses as construction companies prefer to build where they can sell their houses for the most. Although with high property prices lately thats improved a bit. But still the stone built terrace still rules the valleys.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 14, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> If I knew when and where I'd join plane stupid in protesting at Cardiff Airport tomorrow.
> That the assembly is subsidising this shit is an utter disgrace.



If you hear any news PM me, considering going up to the Climate Camp at the weekend.


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## King Biscuit Time (Aug 14, 2007)

I might come down too, just having a look for some cheap flights now.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 14, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I might come down too, just having a look for some cheap flights now.



hmm . . .


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## Gromit (Aug 14, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> I might come down too, just having a look for some cheap flights now.



Ooh good idea I bet prices are dropping like stones with the news of the protest n everything. See ya there


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## King Biscuit Time (Aug 14, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> hmm . . .



Only joking


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## zog (Aug 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Rarely for low income people.



It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.

I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.


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## editor (Aug 14, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.
> 
> I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.


Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?


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## zog (Aug 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?




but they may want to visit North Wales so they can feel better about their own situation.


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## lewislewis (Aug 14, 2007)

Look there needs to be a bloody motorway connecting north and south Wales. I would probably not get the chance to use it, I am not a driver, and yes it causes the environmental damage but that is besides the point. The argument about climate change if used in this way will keep Wales down forever. I'm sorry but I want a better life and I want to maybe visit the mountain ranges of my own country once in a while. It isn't my fault or the people of Caernarfon's fault that China is devastating the global environment.

England has a massive network of roads as Marius suggested, yet we aren't allowed one because it'd be bad for the environment?


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## lewislewis (Aug 14, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Yes, but people on low incomes don't tend to flit around the UK or jet over to Europe on awayday breaks or business trips, do they?



Well actually alot of people on low incomes do, think about all the cheap flights to Europe for holidays, think about the flights to Poland used by the migrant workers (Who don't exactly have thousands to splash around). I'm also working-class and on a low income but managed to fly to Europe twice this year, it's only like £30 return to Spain.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Look there needs to be a bloody motorway connecting north and south Wales. I would probably not get the chance to use it, I am not a driver, and yes it causes the environmental damage but that is besides the point. The argument about climate change if used in this way will keep Wales down forever. I'm sorry but I want a better life and I want to maybe visit the mountain ranges of my own country once in a while. It isn't my fault or the people of Caernarfon's fault that China is devastating the global environment.
> 
> England has a massive network of roads as Marius suggested, yet we aren't allowed one because it'd be bad for the environment?


Did you read the thread?
Climate change is a massive issue when it comes to road building, but the most effective argument is that building more roads doesn't cut congestion... it creates it.
What's wrong with a high-speed rail link?
Does your vision  of a truly independent Wales not run to independence from the UK's failed transport policies?


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## lewislewis (Aug 14, 2007)

Of course and I believe in sustainable development and renewable energy. Sweden is aiming to convert all of it's electricity to renewable sources by 2020. To have the resources to do this Sweden built a thriving economy with a motorway network linking the most remote parts of Sweden with each other.
I would also support a high-speed rail link, I would say that's essential especially as we want to move people out of cars onto trains.
You cannot develop a proper transport policy for Wales (a sustainable one) if the country is divided, and the economy is crap, and we're not getting much tax revenue from commerce etc!

Edit- Welsh internal flights are pretty popular and are part of the overall aim of improving Wales, we cannot have a green economy without any funds to develop it.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

Your green talk sounds like just that. Talk.
You can't argue for a sustainable economy with one breath and then talk about the need for a fuck off big new road down the middle of Wales with another.
It's a massive contradiction.
You say you want to encourage people out of their cars, but also that you have to build a motorway? That's a novel strategy.


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## llantwit (Aug 14, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Edit- Welsh internal flights are pretty popular and are part of the overall aim of improving Wales, we cannot have a green economy without any funds to develop it.


Improving Wales for who? Won't matter a fuck if most of it's underwater.
A truly green economy has no place for short-haul flights.


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## Karac (Aug 14, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Your green talk sounds like just that. Talk.
> You can't argue for a sustainable economy with one breath and then talk about the need for a fuck off big new road down the middle of Wales with another.
> It's a massive contradiction.
> You say you want to encourage people out of their cars, but also that you have to build a motorway? That's a novel strategy.


Its a massive contradiction-but the lack of transport between North and South Wales is a massive contradiction
Though id probably go with a revamping of Rail networks and "possibly" a dual carriageway between Cardiff and Bangor-"if" it was environmentally sound


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Blimey, you sure get around. Four days in Camberwell, and then you're up in Anglesey and then before you know it - you're in Cardiff!


Yep. Live in NoWa, work in London. 5 days a week in Camberwell with 2 days a week in a small village along the North Wales coast. And sometimes on the weekends I travel. Great life, innit?


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Rarely for low income people.



Bangor to Cardiff on the train = £29
Angelsey to Cardiff on the plane = £35

And since you're on the train for 4 hours, you'll wind up spending £6 on tea, beers and crisps.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Wales has the highest CO2 emissions in the UK: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/6932667.stm, but the First Minister, Rhodri Morgan thinks that clmate change could be good for tourism to Wales!  And totally opposes the Assembly setting binding targets to cut emissions in Wales by 3% every year
> 
> Carbon Offsetting is scientifically dubious.
> 
> ...



I like the idea but who would pay for these slashed rail fares? Are you suggesting that taxes be raised to subsidise privately owned rail services?

And does the CO2 emissions you speak of take into account the huge amount of wind generated electricity that Wales pumps back into the national grid?


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> It's cheaper to fly to london than get the train from here. In fact it's cheaper to fly most places in europe than get the train to london.
> 
> I'd imagine the cost of flying to North Wales is comparable to getting the train and having suffered that journey by rail a couple of times it would be a mite easier, quicker and more comfortable.



You can't fly to London from North Wales. And if you plan in right, you can get a 3 hour direct train that is actually very comfortable and only costs about £60 return. I understand NoWa trains are subsidised, hence the low fares.


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## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

Karac said:
			
		

> and "possibly" a dual carriageway between Cardiff and Bangor-"if" it was environmentally sound



Thats a motorway to us welsh. I don't think there is such a thing as a three laned road in Wales.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Thats a motorway to us welsh. I don't think there is such a thing as a three laned road in Wales.



A55 is four lanes 

A motorway through the valleys would ruin the tourist-friendly 'getting away from it all' aspect. Souping up the existing rail services for faster trains would be the most sensible long term answer.


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## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> A55 is four lanes
> 
> A motorway through the valleys would ruin the tourist-friendly 'getting away from it all' aspect. Souping up the existing rail services for faster trains would be the most sensible long term answer.



Screw the tourists. I don't want jobs that depend on outsiders turning up and giving us their money. We need self sustainable jobs. More welsh high paid jobs in research etc.

English tourists saying how lovely and unspoilt Wales is fucks me off because the price of that non development has been welsh poverty. Lets not make Wales propserous eh, we'd have no where to go on idylic day trips then.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Screw the tourists. I don't want jobs that depend on outsiders turning up and giving us their money. We need self sustainable jobs. More welsh high paid jobs in research etc.
> 
> English tourists saying how lovely and unspoilt Wales is fucks me off because the price of that non development has been welsh poverty. Lets not make Wales propserous eh, we'd have no where to go on idylic day trips then.


I disagree. I know a number of people who live wonderful lives in wonderful places all based on the tourist trade. There's nothing wrong with that. And tourism growth in Wales is not the kiss-me-quick rubbish in Rhyl, its the hillwalkers nature lovers that are bring in the money. And in my town, I can't walk down the street without bumping into Spanish, Italian, American and the rest tourist parties who all absolutely love what they are seeing.

And I don't know what you are talking about when it comes to prospertity. Property prices in Wales are incredibly high. Abersoch house prices are on par with London house prices. Welsh landowners are making a fortune and the people catering to well heeled tourists are doing quite well, too.

I would agree more quality jobs are required but not at the expense of building huge industrial parks and ruining what we already benefit immensely from.


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## llantwit (Aug 15, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> I like the idea but who would pay for these slashed rail fares? Are you suggesting that taxes be raised to subsidise privately owned rail services?


I'd suggest we take the railways out of the mess of private ownership we have at the moment and make them accountable again. Profit should not be made from a public service, and forcing companies to be environmentally responsible will never work.
Once that's done massive investment in the railways can be paid for out of the inflated road-building budget, by a complex system of road charging (mainly in the cities), and from taxes (as transport always was paid for).
That we've got to a stage where it's cheaper to fly than to use the trains beggars belief.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 15, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> I would agree more quality jobs are required but not at the expense of building huge industrial parks and ruining what we already benefit immensely from.


This is spot on. Just because we haven't followed the English example of ill-thought-out planning and unbridled expansion so far (admittedly not through choice) doesn't mean we have to start now. 
Wales can start using it's relative lack of crazy, ugly, and unsustainable development to its advantage in thinking of ways to create new forms of development based around a sustainable transport infrastructure and alternative ways of living.
The fact that vast swathes of the country don't loook like the South East of England is surely a good thing. To hold up that bloated, over-populated, over-'developed' mess as an example of what we want would be suicide.


----------



## MrFalafel (Aug 15, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> I'd suggest we take the railways out of the mess of private ownership we have at the moment and make them accountable again. Profit should not be made from a public service, and forcing companies to be environmentally responsible will never work.
> Once that's done massive investment in the railways can be paid for out of the inflated road-building budget, by a complex system of road charging (mainly in the cities), and from taxes (as transport always was paid for).
> That we've got to a stage where it's cheaper to fly than to use the trains beggars belief.



I would have to agree with you on this. But its not really going to happen is it? Re-nationalize the railways? Perhaps if we elected Hugo Chavez as PM...

And what really makes me chew bricks is that its cheaper for 4 people in North Wales to share a private car drive into Manchester than it is for 4 people to take the train for the same journey. Thats just madness.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 15, 2007)

I'm not so sure. In an independent Wales there would be more support for a move like that than in the UK.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> This is spot on. Just because we haven't followed the English example of ill-thought-out planning and unbridled expansion so far (admittedly not through choice) doesn't mean we have to start now.
> Wales can start using it's relative lack of crazy, ugly, and unsustainable development to its advantage in thinking of ways to create new forms of development based around a sustainable transport infrastructure and alternative ways of living.
> The fact that vast swathes of the country don't loook like the South East of England is surely a good thing. To hold up that bloated, over-populated, over-'developed' mess as an example of what we want would be suicide.



There is a lot of truth in that I'll admit.

But having roads a third world country would be ashamed of doesn't help attract high income jobs to Wales.

We don't need to go as mad as the english but we do need to raise our game. Buses use roads too remember. If a bus is stuck in congestion its not a viable means of public transport.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Bangor to Cardiff on the train = £29
> Angelsey to Cardiff on the plane = £35
> 
> And since you're on the train for 4 hours, you'll wind up spending £6 on tea, beers and crisps.


You've missed the point. Low income people don't enjoy your jetset/high mobility lifestyle.

Catching an internal flight for such a small journey is unforgivable in my book. And how much does it cost to get to/from the airports anyway? And how long does it take to get to the airports? You'll soon find your precious time advantage being eaten up.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You've missed the point. Low income people don't enjoy your jetset/high mobility lifestyle.
> 
> Catching an internal flight for such a small journey is unforgivable in my book. And how much does it cost to get to/from the airports anyway?



How much does the overnight stay in Cardiff costs because it takes too long to get back to North Wales? Can low income people afford that?

Every business trip I've taken to North Wales has had to be overnight stay or else it would be a 17 hour day and I'd be a danger on the roads driving home that tired.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> How much does the overnight stay in Cardiff costs because it takes too long to get back to North Wales? Can low income people afford that?


Err, how many low income people need to be regularly flying back and forth from north Wales to Cardiff? Who do you think uses these kind of short haul flights? Haven't you seen the CAA stats about the demographics of air passengers (posted on the Heathrow thread).



			
				Marius said:
			
		

> Every business trip I've taken to North Wales has had to be overnight stay or else it would be a 17 hour day and I'd be a danger on the roads driving home that tired.


You could have slept on the train. Or is this your way of proving that you somehow _need _to take the plane over such a short distance?


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

Hire car. When I went to N Wales I had to make the most of it and visit as many people across as many sites as possible as I knew I wouldn't be up there for ages afterwards. This was to do health and safety assessments for people with special requirements. If I took public transport only half of them would have got assessed and would have had to suffer until I next went up.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Hire car. When I went to N Wales I had to make the most of it and visit as many people across as many sites as possible as I knew I wouldn't be up there for ages afterwards. This was to do health and safety assessments for people with special requirements. If I took public transport only half of them would have got assessed and would have had to suffer until I next went up.


You could have enjoyed a relaxing train journey up and hired the car when you got there.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You could have enjoyed a relaxing train journey up and hired the car when you got there.



Its cheaper to just hire the car with our contract than car and train. 
I'd still be doing a 15 hour day. Pfft no thank you. So I'd still end up doing over night.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Its cheaper to just hire the car with our contract than car and train.


That's your choice, but the point being there  _was_ an alternative available to you, even if it using it would cause you a relatively minor inconvenience.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's your choice, but the point being there  _was_ an alternative available to you, even if it using it would cause you a relatively minor inconvenience.



More like the budget holder's choice. I have to go for the cheapest (and safest) option. Public accounting.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> More like the budget holder's choice. I have to go for the cheapest (and safest) option.


Getting a train is far, far safer than driving. And more environmentally friendly, of course.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 15, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Getting a train is far, far safer than driving.



Not with out rail system it ain't. I saw that undercover program on track inspections that would put you off train travel for life.


----------



## editor (Aug 15, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> Not with out rail system it ain't. I saw that undercover program on track inspections that would put you off train travel for life.


You can watch all the TV programs you like, but the fact remains that rail travel is far safer than driving. 

And I don't just mean a little bit safer: rail travel is _vastly_ safer than driving. Turn off your TV and go check the official stats.


----------



## lewislewis (Aug 16, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> This is spot on. Just because we haven't followed the English example of ill-thought-out planning and unbridled expansion so far (admittedly not through choice) doesn't mean we have to start now.
> Wales can start using it's relative lack of crazy, ugly, and unsustainable development to its advantage in thinking of ways to create new forms of development based around a sustainable transport infrastructure and alternative ways of living.
> The fact that vast swathes of the country don't loook like the South East of England is surely a good thing. To hold up that bloated, over-populated, over-'developed' mess as an example of what we want would be suicide.



That's more like it. Maybe we could have our own sustainable, properly developed country rather than copying England. The thing is, even with devolution we won't be allowed to develop that. 
The thing is i've been brought up with the idea drummed into my head that Wales is a divided country between north and south in every sense (cultural, economic etc) because those two parts of Wales are literally, physically divided in terms of transport and links.
I want Wales to be one country not dozens of different degrees of 'Welshness'.
If this link can be something other than a motorway then i'd go with it, a high speed rail link for example. 

With regards to energy, Wales is a net exporter of energy and has the majority of the UK's wind power. If all the wind farms in Wales were totalled together in terms of energy output, I wonder what percentage of Welsh energy it would amount to? Probably something more significant than alot of European countries. It is vital that Wales has control of it's own energy industries. If there's going to be sustainable development in Wales *we* have to do it, not sit around waiting for London to solve our problems.


----------



## chainsaw cat (Aug 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely a better option would be to call for reopening some of the cross-Wales rail routes trashed in the 60s and the upgrading of current rail services across Wales (and introducing cheaper fares)?
> 
> The last thing Wales needs is dirty great big motorways trashing the countryside.



The first thing Wales needs is the A483 widening for a few miles here and there so you can pass the fucking tourists/tractors/Kronospan lorries....


----------



## chainsaw cat (Aug 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> You can watch all the TV programs you like, but the fact remains that rail travel is far safer than driving.
> 
> And I don't just mean a little bit safer: rail travel is _vastly_ safer than driving. Turn off your TV and go check the official stats.



He's right, but the stats don't include suicides of rail travellers who, for years, dream of a better future.


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## Yossarian (Aug 16, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> The thing is i've been brought up with the idea drummed into my head that Wales is a divided country between north and south in every sense (cultural, economic etc) because those two parts of Wales are literally, physically divided in terms of transport and links.



Transport links haven’t done much to change the north-south divide in England, or in Italy, would Wales be any different?


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## lewislewis (Aug 16, 2007)

You can't compare Wales to England or Italy. I'm not saying transport links would eliminate the divide, but at least links would enable ordinary people from Caernarfon or Bangor to visit their own capital city.


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## davesgcr (Aug 16, 2007)

I recall the actual numbers of travellers Cardiff to west of Bangor by train is about 300 a day.Not a huge market - but relevant - small compared to E-W trips to / from England . 

Whilst the planes seem to reflect a "token" gesture - there is a much more sustainable plan to speed up the present xx20 2 hourly Cardiff to Holyhead by some line speed and signal improvements north of Newport and by partially redoubling the 17 miles of single line from Wrexham to Chester.Getting the trains to exploit their 100 mph capability makes a difference (albeit with political junketing about calls at smaller stations)   

Just a bit better than motorway / air madness I think.

(PS these trains could use a biofuel mix)


----------



## lewislewis (Aug 16, 2007)

One thing that keeps popping up in my head is 'other countries don't bother with the environment, they just exploit it and reap the rewards, why can't we?' 
I know it's a shallow point, but the fact is, if Wales leads the way in sustainable transport development and doesn't bother building motorways, nobody is going to praise us for it. We already have a renewable energy capacity that is more advanced than most comparable countries, but nobody considers this a big deal. We're one of the few countries in the European Union that is ruling private finance out of the health sector (I can't think of many others, Scotland, France, maybe some of the Scandinavian countries, Germany to an extent?), nobody cares (although maybe when this gets implemented across the board excitement will pick up). 

Re-nationalising the railways is not a fantasy or Chavez style idea either. Labour talked about the idea recently and the unions generally support it. It could be done and I think should be done eventually in Wales. The political will would be easy to find in Wales to renationalise the railways and like Llantwit says, although it's considered a crazy idea in England it's more realistic here.


----------



## zog (Aug 16, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> but at least links would enable ordinary people from Caernarfon or Bangor to visit their own capital city.




We keep the transport links poor down here for a good reason you know.




			
				davesgcr said:
			
		

> I recall the actual numbers of travellers Cardiff to west of Bangor by train is about 300 a day.Not a huge market - but relevant - small compared to E-W trips to / from England .
> 
> Whilst the planes seem to reflect a "token" gesture - there is a much more sustainable plan to speed up the present xx20 2 hourly Cardiff to Holyhead by some line speed and signal improvements north of Newport and by partially redoubling the 17 miles of single line from Wrexham to Chester.Getting the trains to exploit their 100 mph capability makes a difference (albeit with political junketing about calls at smaller stations)
> 
> ...



More seriously, one of the more sensible answers


----------



## davesgcr (Aug 16, 2007)

Would be nice if Wales got even a mile of electrified railway !


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## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't really understand the idea that others would have to 'praise' us or be 'excited' about to make sustainable transport and energy policies worthwhile. Smacks a bit of a will to impress political masters elsewhere to me LL. What happened to autonomy and self-determination. I would have thought those were two principles we could fairly easily agree on?
And I've got no sympathy whatsoever for the kind of attitude that goes, everyone else is doing it (unbridled, unsustainable, and damaging expansion) so we should too. Firstly it's like fiddling as Rome burns, and secondly, nothing would ever change for the better if everyone thought like this.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> We keep the transport links poor down here for a good reason you know.



Naughty


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

But nice.


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## Guruchelles (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't understand the more roads _creates_ more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

Guruchelles said:
			
		

> I don't understand the more roads _creates_ more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it.



I think the increase is due to:

Out of town shopping 
Poor and expensive public transport
A large reduction in car prices – Britain used to get seriously ripped off as us suckers are often prepared to pay more for stuff than our neighbours. Strong global competition from Asia has helped here. You couldn’t get a brand new car for £7k like you can now (even though £7k was worth more back then).


----------



## editor (Aug 16, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Yep. Live in NoWa, work in London. 5 days a week in Camberwell with 2 days a week in a small village along the North Wales coast.


Is that cottage left empty the rest of the week then?

*gets flaming torch






			
				MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Great life, innit?


Maybe for you if all that endless travelling is your thing. Not so good for others, I'd imagine.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Guruchelles said:
			
		

> I don't understand the more roads _creates_ more cars argument. Surely there have been other factors since 1980 (an increase in two-worker households springs to mind) that have lead to more cars being bought and used rather than simply people spotting an empty stretch of road and heading to the car dealer with their debit card so that they can fill it.


That's because that's not the argument. That would be too simplistic. It's not as if more roads magically create more cars, or that lemming-like we buy cars to fill all the available roadspace. There's more to it than that, and Marius has named a few of the interconnectinng reasons for more car use, but the fact that more roads have been built is a massive reason why we've got more cars now than ever before. 
It's a supply and demend, thing to an extent. But it's also linked in to loads of other factors. Roads are often built to allow easy access to out of town shopping centres, etc. In that case capitalist over-development has gone hand in hand with road building. Another factor is the combined and disproportionate power of the road-building industry, the car-building industry and the petrochemical industry pushing for more roads, more private car use, more unsustainable consumption of petrol, and consequently more wonga for a small bunch of people.
It's presented as the natural course of 'development', but actually it's far from natural - it's highly planned. It's also presented as 'what people want', but people were never presented with any real alternatives, so it's no surprise that there have been calls for more roads for ages now. It seems the logical thing to call for under the circumstances.
We _could _have planned things very differently, and if we did we'd have very different transport use in this country at the moment. One way things could have been planned differently is for governments to have used the vast sums of our money they've spent on roads on developing shit-hot public transport. If this had been done there'd be far less cars on the roads as there'd be no need for them.


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## Guruchelles (Aug 16, 2007)

I just can't help thinking that no matter how "shit hot" public transport was, if there were enough buses running in enough areas, and at frequent enough times to get myself and my children to where we needed to be, when we needed to be there with any level of convenience then there'd be so many of the damn things running that they would be unenvironmental too.


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## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Skewered. OK then, you win. Lets all keep building roads and driving everywhere.


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## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Seriously, this kind of lack of ability/will to imagine sustainable alternatives to our current hyper-distructive living habits is depressing as fuck. Take yer head out of the sand for fucks' sake.


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## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

Supporters of public transport are right in some respects but forget that it also depends on the location.

The trams in Amsterdam are very effective because Amsterdam is build like the hub of a wheel.

In Cardiff however public transport is hindered greatly by a city layout that doesn't lend itself to public transport. City planners were extremely shortsighted which resulted in few main arturies, most of them narrow and as a result all buses head into the centre and head back out again to get anywhere. There are very few circular routes and no hubs.

To have a decent transit system in Cardiff we'd need to knock down half the city and start again


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

I don't think so (surprise, surprise).
The town hasn't altered significantly since it actually had a trolley bus and tram system, for instance. Same big wide thoroughfares, for example. Plus, the town's an ideal size for a good tram system. No reason tram lines couldn't run: down Lloyd George avenue to the bay; along Newport Road and up Rhymney Hill; Along Castle St, Wellington St, and Landsdowne Rd, and Cowbridge Rd West or grand Avenue to cover Ely and Canton; Up Cathedral Rd and StationRd to cover Pontcanna; and Llandaff North and Caerphilly Rd to cover Heath. I think there also used to be a tram going down Crwys Rd, Witchurch Rd, and City Rd. 
You do that alongside a congestion charge on cars, cheap park and ride, and increased car-parking charges in the centre it'd be cool. There'd be less cars, a good public transport option, and more space on the roads to cycle if you want to. This is a wet dream, though, and would be expensive. But what a legacy for some aspiring politician/mayor! I would settle for cheaper, more reliable buses at the mo, though, I must admit.
At the moment they're increasing car parking charges without offering an alternative, which sucks.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

We're talking about a modern tram system here servicing a city with a significantly higher population to back then. 
Compare the width of Cardiff's roads to Amsterdam, Toronto and even Nottingnham. Ours are no where near as wide. 

I can't see it myself.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Is that cottage left empty the rest of the week then?
> 
> *gets flaming torchMaybe for you if all that endless travelling is your thing. Not so good for others, I'd imagine.



No, the house in Wales is my permanent home I just rent in Camberwell for work. My wife and cat live in North Wales full time. And the locals think I'm cool because I don't have an English accent and my wife is a Welsh speaker. Village life is all about the politics.

I'd love to be up in NoWa full time but the suit and tie jobs are all down in the City.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> We're talking about a modern tram system here servicing a city with a significantly higher population to back then.
> Compare the width of Cardiff's roads to Amsterdam, Toronto and even Nottingnham. Ours are no where near as wide.
> I can't see it myself.


You're a happy bastard aren't you.
I've read an article recently about Cardiff being exactly the right population size for a tram network, and the roads being plenty wide enough. Can't bloody remember where though, sorry.
This guy seems to think we can learn from transport policy in Baden Wuertemburg in Southern Germany (not the artile I'm thinking of, though):
http://www.iwa.org.uk/publications/pdfs/charvie.pdf
Scroll downto the last few paras for his opinion on cardiff and trams.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> You're a happy bastard aren't you.



No you have me all wrong. I am in fact a cynical pesimistic cunt.

Don't get me wrong. I'd love to see a effecient tram system in Cardiff.
I'm no expert, it could work, I just can't personally see it working.

Its been proposed more times than I can remember but never seems to happen. If it was that viable surely they'd have followed through with those proposals by now. Especially as reports have appeared in the press about us being more congested than London.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> No you have me all wrong. I am in fact a cynical pesimistic cunt.


----------



## zog (Aug 16, 2007)

> and increased car-parking charges in the centre it'd be cool



Fucks sake LLantwit. I got caught for £12.50 for 4 hrs a couple of weeks ago. they're robbin bastards as it is, don't go and encourage them.

As for stopping cars travelling down St Marys St 

All it does is shift all the trafic into Riverside and other residential areas. I work on St Mary's St and one of my co-workers who only has one leg has to hop from Westgate St to the office now as they won't even let disabled badge holders access the street.

It's all well and good makeing life more dificult for car drivers, but it really needs to go hand in hand with improved pubilc transport.


----------



## zog (Aug 16, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Is that cottage left empty the rest of the week then?
> 
> *gets flaming torchMaybe for you if all that endless travelling is your thing. Not so good for others, I'd imagine.




Sometimes people just click. You know what I mean? and I can tell you've just taken to Mr F.

By the way Mr F. Welcome to the boards.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

What you doing parking inb town for you lazy fucker!?"!@%£*^& You only live accross the bluddy road.
Totally agree, though. Gotta have public transport too.
As it is the council seem to be leaving it to 'market forces' to sort out the pubic transport while reaping the benefits of increased parking prces themselves.
It's gonna be impossible to commute to Cardiff with a car once they turn over all the voucher parking in the centre to metre parking. It'll be like four times the price or something!
eta: I like the idea of 'pubic transport' - would be an improvement on the smell of Cardiff buses.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 16, 2007)

zog said:
			
		

> Sometimes people just click. You know what I mean? and I can tell you've just taken to Mr F.
> 
> By the way Mr F. Welcome to the boards.



I have a feeling thats down to the first impressions generated in his "How do I illegally sneak underage girls into clubs" thread.


----------



## llantwit (Aug 16, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> I have a feeling thats  own to the first impressions generated in his "How do I illegally sneak underage girls into clubs" thread.


That'd do the trick then. Clearly a charmer.


----------



## chainsaw cat (Aug 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Is that cottage left empty the rest of the week then?
> 
> **gets flaming torch*Maybe for you if all that endless travelling is your thing. Not so good for others, I'd imagine.




..._PMs Editor with alibi_.....


----------



## Yossarian (Aug 19, 2007)

You want to burn his wife and his cat? That’s a little harsh – you haven’t even verified whether they’re English or not yet!


----------



## lewislewis (Aug 19, 2007)

Cardiff council is a good example of how not to run transport (public or otherwise), I think we can all agree on that- bunch of money grabbers. Why the fuck do residents of Cardiff vote Lib Dem?


----------



## Kameron (Aug 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Surely a better option would be to call for reopening some of the cross-Wales rail routes trashed in the 60s and the upgrading of current rail services across Wales (and introducing cheaper fares)?
> 
> The last thing Wales needs is dirty great big motorways trashing the countryside.


Amen to the last point but my understanding, and the maths isn't all that complex to crunch (it is done quite simplistically here but I've seen more high-brow analyzes), is that rail is no better than air. If you do the numbers it is better in terms of the carbon foot print to travel by car as long as you have four or more people in the car and aren't driving an SUV.

We can't extend that analysis to air travel because what the simplistic analysis done by Lancs Uni engineering department misses is the effect of con-trails but to be fair it isn't that Kemp doesn't know about con-trails it is just that it is a first year lecture and doesn't attempt to go into secondary environmental foot print, it is a strictly carbon foot-print model.


----------



## Gromit (Aug 19, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Cardiff council is a good example of how not to run transport (public or otherwise), I think we can all agree on that- bunch of money grabbers. Why the fuck do residents of Cardiff vote Lib Dem?



The buses and trains in Cardiff have been private for years. Long before the Lib Dems got in.


----------



## zog (Aug 19, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Cardiff council is a good example of how not to run transport (public or otherwise), I think we can all agree on that- bunch of money grabbers. Why the fuck do residents of Cardiff vote Lib Dem?



cos Labour are a shower of cunts and there ain't enought people living in Pontcanna to get Plaid in.


----------



## MrFalafel (Aug 19, 2007)

Just thought I post my experience in actually taking one of those internal Wales flights:

The airport in Anglesey is actually just part of RAF Valley. At roughly flight time, a chap with a uniform stands holding a gate open to allow passengers access to the modest parking lot. My taxi dropped us off at the nice new but tiny terminal.

The terminal has one check in desk and another desk for enquiries. The desk clerk takes the job very seriously and quizzes everyone about luggage contents, even the fluids thing. The waiting area has the usual fixed chairs, arrivals /departures screens (all 4 daily flights are listed in real time!) and a couple of vending machines. Everything is new looking. Nice photography artwork on the walls.

When called through to the seperate departure lounge you have to put your luggage through a proper xray machine and walk through the metal detector just like in normal airports. Must have been half a dozen people working in the airport that I saw.

Then the airplane (Jetstream 31)http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d4/Jetstream31.jpg landed and discharged its passengers via the airplane door that folds down and presents stairs to the ground. Perhaps half full. Pre boarding was announced and the little old lady in the wheel chair was wheeled out onto the tarmac and lifted into a seat. 

The plane seats 18 passengers in 6 rows of 3 seats: 2 seats together, then a tiny aisle and another seat. Its all quite small but there is sufficient legroom for a 6' person like me.

We all get settled and the stewardess (yes there is a full time stewardess on the flight) goes through the safety stuff and hands out boiled sweets. The twin turbo props are fired up and we taxi to the runway, the same runway used by fighter jets, and we join the queue to take-off/land. Its quite odd to be sitting there waiting to take off with a scary looking fighter aircraft sitting behind you...

Take off is smooth, we bank into the clouds an then above the clouds for an effortless flight down. Coffee/tea & biscuits are served during the 45 minute flight and then we make our descent passing a great view of Cardiff Bay and into Cardiff Airport, which is a bit of a dissapointment as far as transportation links into town.

It was a fun flight but its pretty clear the whole thing was constructed so AMs can fly to and from NoWa to Cardiff and back. The amount of ground crew to passengers and numbers of flights just doesn't add up. I say ride it while you can if you enjoy that kind of thing.


----------



## editor (Aug 19, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> In Cardiff however public transport is hindered greatly by a city layout that doesn't lend itself to public transport.


A good start might be to join the Coryton railway line up to Radyr to create an inner circle line.


----------



## editor (Aug 19, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> The terminal has one check in desk and another desk for enquiries. The desk clerk takes the job very seriously and quizzes everyone about luggage contents, even the fluids thing. The waiting area has the usual fixed chairs, arrivals /departures screens (all 4 daily flights are listed in real time!) and a couple of vending machines. Everything is new looking. Nice photography artwork on the walls.
> 
> When called through to the seperate departure lounge you have to put your luggage through a proper xray machine and walk through the metal detector just like in normal airports. Must have been half a dozen people working in the airport that I saw.


Compare with: get on train in middle of the city five minutes before departure and get off in the centre of the city of your destination. 

No long rides to out of the way airports,  no nosey parkers rifling through your bags and asking you personal questions, no metal detectors, no hanging about waiting for hours, no "you can't use your phone now" warnings, no tiny uncomfortable seats, no boring view of clouds and, of course, much less damage to the environment.


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## editor (Aug 19, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> The buses and trains in Cardiff have been private for years.


Not according to the blurb on their buses ("This bus belongs to you").


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## Col_Buendia (Aug 19, 2007)

We're not all up at Heathrow 

https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/en/2007/08/378962.html

https://publish.indymedia.org.uk/images/2007/08/378964.jpg


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 19, 2007)

lewislewis said:
			
		

> Why the fuck do residents of Cardiff vote Lib Dem?



They used to vote Labour but Labour were crap,  now many deceive themselves that LibDems are to the left of Labour.  

Many are voting LibDems as a perceived left-alternative to New Labour, For example, my parents are traditional Labour voters. After 1997 they voted SLP, Green & RESPECT, but recently have dangerously moved towards voting LibDem - the yellow tories.

In Cardiff Central where LibDems have their only MP in Cardiff, the student vote is essential.

Students now overwhelmingly vote LibDem.  Many would have in the past voted for Labour, but since tuition fees hardly any students would vote Labour.  The LibDems are also perceived as being an anti-war party.

Llantwit makes some good points, but I disagree with him over the idea of a congestion charge.  As I have discussed extensively in the past, Ken Livingstone's and the GLC policy in the 1980s of _radically slashing bus and tube fares _was far more effective in lowering congestion than his more recent congestion charge.

It was also a policy that was massively popular with working class people, surveys at the time showed almost three-quarters of Londoners approved.

This is important today because their is a danger of a popular backlash against climate change.  Many measures such as abolishing cheap flights and the mainstream parties obsession with green taxes mean that working class people could become quite negative about tackling global warming.  In actuality their are many measures to tackle climate change that would be hugely beneficial to working people.

The Scottish Socialist Party and many other left wing groups have been proposing the idea of Free Public Transport:
http://www.scottishsocialistparty.org/transport/index.html

This is not as utopian as it might seem.  In the 80s, leftwing Labour councils such as the GLC and Sheffield (led by then-left wing, David Blunkett) dramatically slashed fares for local transport.

Some European cities sucessfully implemented genuinely free public transport.  One of the most famous cases was in Red Bologna in the 70s.  One of the things they would do is set up car parks at the edge of the city, visitors and tourists would have to leave their cars in the parks and get on buses that would take them into the City.

Even in England today some local councils run limited free bus services in the city centre area: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FreeCityBus
There's no reason why Cardiff couldn't run a similar service to those in Leeds and Huddersfield.

The SSP website quotes an example from Belgium where free public transport dramatically reduced congestion:



> In the Belgian city of Hasselt, which covers an area double the size of Dundee, congestion was eliminated in the late 1980s after the introduction of a totally free public transport system. Within a year, bus passenger journeys rose by 870 per cent and have now increased by over 1000 per cent



They still run free public transport, see:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_transport_in_Hasselt

What ended cheap fares and free public transport was not unfeasibility but hostility from corporations and right wing politicians.  In Britain, backed by the Tories, the Law Lords took the GLC to court.

Some examples of zero-fares:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zero-fare_public_transport


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## Gromit (Aug 19, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Not according to the blurb on their buses ("This bus belongs to you").



Don't blame me


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## meurig (Aug 19, 2007)

Didn't the Tories privatise Cardiff buses back in the early 80s? Or did they just deregulate them?


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## ddraig (Aug 20, 2007)

thought it was owned by the council...
from the wiki


> Cardiff Bus (Welsh: Bws Caerdydd) is the dominant bus operator in the Welsh capital Cardiff and the surrounding area, including Barry and Penarth. The company is *wholly owned by Cardiff Council* and is one of the few municipal bus companies to survive the effects of UK bus deregulation in the late 1980s.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiff_Bus


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## MrFalafel (Aug 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Compare with: get on train in middle of the city five minutes before departure and get off in the centre of the city of your destination.
> 
> No long rides to out of the way airports,  no nosey parkers rifling through your bags and asking you personal questions, no metal detectors, no hanging about waiting for hours, no "you can't use your phone now" warnings, no tiny uncomfortable seats, no boring view of clouds and, of course, much less damage to the environment.



Well I did do the train back ot NoWa after taking the flight down to Cardiff so I can compare and contrast.

Walking through Cardiff bus station to the train terminal past the bums and drunks leftover from the following evening certainly wasn't the same as arriving at the clean and remote airport. And the bilingual warnings to watch for pickpockets and to keep an eye on your bags in Cardiff train station did add an air of magic for our journey home.

On the 3 hour train to Crewe (the first leg of the journey) I certainly enjoy stepping ito the bygone era of 1970s rolling stock, the graffitti hacked train tables shortened our journey as we marked the passage of the ages through the scratchings of passengers. Paying 90p for a packet of crisps wasn't as nice as getting a couple of free boiled sweets and a coffee on the plane, but it was certainly more substantial.

And the chaos at Crewe where the train split sending the first half to Manchester and the second half to NoWa was a great way to stretch ones legs, especially as the second half was now completely full and no seats were remaining. Imagine the jolly conversations had by the 12 people crammed into a veistible along with their luggage, all bound for Butlins in Prestatyn and static caravans in Rhyl. Wasn't it interesting to trade stories and views of current events with grimy fathers of 4 who were already on their 3rd can of Carling by 2pm? Isn't it great to run shoulders with all of Gods children in this manner?

And the elongated stops at Prestatyn and Rhyl while northwestern sub proletariat unloaded huge amounts of luggage and tranlsucent and/or obese children or the one week holiday among the soggy dunes allowed us a closer view of the center of these towns and the extent of their decay. Anthropology in action!

So what exactly is the carbon footprint of a fully laden twin turbo prop airplane running for 45 minutes vs an aging diesel train running for 4 hours while spewing its lavatory accumulation along the train tracks?


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## llantwit (Aug 20, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> Llantwit makes some good points, but I disagree with him over the idea of a congestion charge.  As I have discussed extensively in the past, Ken Livingstone's and the GLC policy in the 1980s of _radically slashing bus and tube fares _was far more effective in lowering congestion than his more recent congestion charge.


To be fair, I did say we needed both.


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## llantwit (Aug 20, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Well I did do the train back ot NoWa after taking the flight down to Cardiff so I can compare and contrast.
> 
> Walking through Cardiff bus station to the train terminal past the bums and drunks leftover from the following evening certainly wasn't the same as arriving at the clean and remote airport. And the bilingual warnings to watch for pickpockets and to keep an eye on your bags in Cardiff train station did add an air of magic for our journey home.
> 
> ...


Yes, I can see why you'd prefer a form of publicly subsidised non-sustainable transport appartheid. You don't have to mix with those ghastly proles as it is. You can exist in a nice clean middle class bubble between your city job, your country pad, and the odd jet down to Cardiff. Hurrah!
PS: Fuck off.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Walking through Cardiff bus station to the train terminal past the bums and drunks leftover from the following evening certainly wasn't the same as arriving at the clean and remote airport.


Gosh. It must have been so awful for you having to pass a handful of dreadful poor people on your way to the station.

Stupid snob.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 20, 2007)

On the congestion charge I oppose it, I will dig out the thread where I documented extensively the flaws and problems in it.  It is also a regressive tax.

I think Falafel does have one point that proponents of public transport have to answer.

There is an issue on evening trains of drunken and disorderly conduct.

In Cardiff, some women I know are afraid to travel on some of the late night buses, some drivers are too.  The late bus services into areas such as Llanrumney and Fairwater are often cancelled for long periods of time due to violence from passengers sometimes towards the drivers.

One solution might be to re-introduce conductors and employ more Guards.  Certainly that would create jobs.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2007)

Udo Erasmus said:
			
		

> I think Falafel does have one point that proponents of public transport have to answer.


Err, he wasn't complaining about that - he was whining that his long suffering eyes had to merely _gaze upon_ these "bums and drunks" as he hurried past on his way to his country pad.

He then went on to slag off the "northwestern sub proletariat" and their "tranlsucent and/or obese children," deriding them for only being able to afford  a "one week holiday among the soggy dunes."

The guy's an insufferable snob. And that's just about the politest way I can word it.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 20, 2007)

llantwit said:
			
		

> Yes, I can see why you'd prefer a form of publicly subsidised non-sustainable transport appartheid. You don't have to mix with those ghastly proles as it is. You can exist in a nice clean middle class bubble between your city job, your country pad, and the odd jet down to Cardiff. Hurrah!
> PS: Fuck off.


I ride the train from NoWa to London twice a week, son. Been doing it for years now. I know what I'm talking about.

Hop a weekend train from Chester to Rhyl sometime and tell me its a pleasant experience. Go ahead.


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## MrFalafel (Aug 20, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> Err, he wasn't complaining about that - he was whining that his long suffering eyes had to merely _gaze upon_ these "bums and drunks" as he hurried past on his way to his country pad.
> 
> He then went on to slag off the "northwestern sub proletariat" and their "tranlsucent and/or obese children," deriding them for only being able to afford  a "one week holiday among the soggy dunes."
> 
> The guy's an insufferable snob. And that's just about the politest way I can word it.


Hmm, my home is in NoWa and my country pad is in Camberwell, but some aren't interested in reality as myths are so much easier to cling to, especially for the unimaginative.

As I've pointed out before there is only £6 difference between riding a train and an airplane but some people would rather spend that £6 on a few cans of lager, I guess.

And another poster is correct: the trains into NoWa at night are downright scary. I've had Virgin train conductors announce on the tannoy for everyone to 'watch their bags' as we travelled between Prestatyn and Colwyn Bay on more than one occaison because of unsavoury characters on the train.

One can sit back and judge based on unreality or one can listen to those who live the life and learn from it. But then again, ignorance is such bliss for so many


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## King Biscuit Time (Aug 20, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> The buses and trains in Cardiff have been private for years. Long before the Lib Dems got in.




Cardiff bus is still owed by Cardiff City Council is it not?


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## Gromit (Aug 20, 2007)

King Biscuit Time said:
			
		

> Cardiff bus is still owed by Cardiff City Council is it not?



According to other posters it is. Which has me  as I was certain it was privatised yonks ago.


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## editor (Aug 20, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Hmm, my home is in NoWa and my country pad is in Camberwell, but some aren't interested in reality as myths are so much easier to cling to, especially for the unimaginative.


That's total gibberish, I'm afraid. Please explain what point it is you're trying to make.






			
				MrFalafel said:
			
		

> As I've pointed out before there is only £6 difference between riding a train and an airplane but some people would rather spend that £6 on a few cans of lager, I guess.


No, some people give a shit about the environment and *choose* to travel by train. People like me, for example.

I've no idea why you're bringing in comparisons with cans of lager either. What point are you trying to make? FYI, I very rarely have a drink on a train.






			
				MrFalafel said:
			
		

> One can sit back and judge based on unreality or one can listen to those who live the life and learn from it. But then again, ignorance is such bliss for so many


Once again, I've no idea what you're on about. Who's "ignorant"?


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## King Biscuit Time (Aug 20, 2007)

Marius said:
			
		

> According to other posters it is. Which has me  as I was certain it was privatised yonks ago.




Nah, buses were still full of signs saying 'This is *your* bus' yadda yadda yadda when I left Cardiff 6 months or so ago.

Fucking good job too - When they dropped dayriders to £3 it was like having the freedom of the city in your pocket - especially for evening drinking in other parts of town. Now I have to put with fricking First and Stagecoach in competition in Sheffield   .


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## MrFalafel (Aug 21, 2007)

editor said:
			
		

> That's total gibberish, I'm afraid. Please explain what point it is you're trying to make.No, some people give a shit about the environment and *choose* to travel by train. People like me, for example.
> 
> I've no idea why you're bringing in comparisons with cans of lager either. What point are you trying to make? FYI, I very rarely have a drink on a train.Once again, I've no idea what you're on about. Who's "ignorant"?



You certainly do not have a clue as to what I'm talking about  

I'll simplify it for you:

- I live in North Wales and rent a flat in Camberwell
- I haven't owned a car since 1989 and travel huge amounts of distances on trains
- One is more apt to encounter unsavoury people on a train then on an airplane as unsavory people quite often would rather spend money on lager then on upgrading their travel costs to be able to afford a flight.

So, while its totally groovy to use the train to save the earth, the reality is that for many people the unsavoury and unsafe nature of many trains makes  saving the earth in this manner not an option. So they can either take a flight or drive themselves.

And isn't' anyone going to tell me the carbon footprint of a propeller driven Jetstream 31 for 45 minutes vs a diesel engine running for 4 hours?


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## editor (Aug 21, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> - One is more apt to encounter unsavoury people on a train then on an airplane as unsavory people quite often would rather spend money on lager then on upgrading their travel costs to be able to afford a flight.


Yes, you've already delivered your snobbish lecture on how unpleasant you find poor people and the "sub proletariat " who obviously can't afford your self declared "great life."


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## llantwit (Aug 21, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> You certainly do not have a clue as to what I'm talking about
> 
> I'll simplify it for you:
> 
> ...


You are fucking unbelievable, 'son'.
'Unsavoury'. You fucking tosser.


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## chainsaw cat (Aug 22, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> Well I did do the train back ot NoWa after taking the flight down to Cardiff so I can compare and contrast.
> 
> Walking through Cardiff bus station to the train terminal past the bums and drunks leftover from *the following evening certainly *wasn't the same as arriving at the clean and remote airport.




Was it a train or a time machine?


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## pembrokestephen (Aug 27, 2007)

Guruchelles said:
			
		

> I just can't help thinking that no matter how "shit hot" public transport was, if there were enough buses running in enough areas, and at frequent enough times to get myself and my children to where we needed to be, when we needed to be there with any level of convenience then there'd be so many of the damn things running that they would be unenvironmental too.


Well, not sure about that.

Even a smallish bus can carry 15-25 cars' worth of people, and well-maintained buses have the potential to be particularly good on emissions, so the switch from cars to buses would represent a significant environmental benefit.

But good public transport (including those buses) would increase travel! True, that might negate their environmental benefits, but what it would do would be to hugely increase the economic opportunities. And, even if travel rose by, say, a factor of 4, we'd STILL be emitting LOADS less carbon dioxide than we were with crappy buses, and a quarter of the traffic driving itself around in cars.


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## pembrokestephen (Aug 27, 2007)

MrFalafel said:
			
		

> I ride the train from NoWa to London twice a week, son. Been doing it for years now. I know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Hop a weekend train from Chester to Rhyl sometime and tell me its a pleasant experience. Go ahead.


But that's not necessarily an inherent fault of the transport system itself.

Fair enough, you're comparing things as they stand at the moment, but this thread is about what to change for the *future*. At the moment, the WA is subsidising an air link from North Wales (can't bring myself to call it "NoWa" - maybe it's because I'm secretly an expat Sais in Pembrokeshire), and the government is doing its level best to unsubsidise rail. So you have an artificially low (but still high enough to dissuade the proles) air fare, against a somewhat more market-oriented rail fare. I'd argue that, if you're going to subsidise services, it should be the other way around.

The big factor in this is cars. It just shouldn't be able to cost less to go somewhere by car, even two-up, than it does by train: that's ridiculous. And it shouldn't really take twice as long to get somewhere by train as it does to make the same journey by car (though I'll admit that Wales has plenty of far-flung and remote bits that couldn't reasonably sustain direct train services).

And - to bolt another little bugbear of mine onto this thread - the transport infrastructure should be integrated. I ranted a while ago about the extant North-South link, viz the X40 bus that goes between Aberystwyth and Carmarthen, and thence to Swansea and (I believe Cardiff). This bus service arrives outside Aberystwyth Station *seven minutes* after the two-hourly rail service has departed. In other words, purely thanks to timetabling, there's an 1h50m penalty added onto any journey that involves a bus/train interchange at Aber. That's just madness, and is going to have pretty much anyone reaching for their car keys.

It's not even just north-south traffic. I live in Pembroke, and work variously in Haverfordwest, Carmarthen, and various points in between. Even in the winter, one of the major hassles with the A477 Pembroke to St Clears road is the level of heavy traffic, mostly lorries going to the ferry at Pembroke Dock. I can't believe that we're shifting stuff on what is, in effect a point-to-point link between (say) Swansea and Pembroke Dock/Fishguard in individual lorries. Why aren't they being put on the back of trains and taken to the ferry(ies) like that, freeing up a restricted road corridor (the A477 has two decent overtaking spots in its 25 miles between St Clears and Pembroke) for local traffic?

For that matter, why is a county that is hugely dependent on tourist traffic effectively forcing holidaymakers coming here to drive? We're just finishing building the Bluestone holiday complex in the middle of the National Park, miles from any serious public transport infrastructure - the only way to get there will be to drive, unless they've set up some kind of shuttle service from Carmarthen or Haverfordwest. And, meanwhile, the WA is talking about spending uge amounts of money on doubling the A40 Carmarthen-Haverfordwest-Fishguard road. It all seems very short-sighted.

Me, I'd go for a hydrofoil/SeaCat service from Swansea-Tenby-Milford Haven-Cardigan-Aberystwyth-Pwllheli.


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## Udo Erasmus (Aug 28, 2007)

It says a lot about the capitalist system that it is cheaper to fly to Italy than catch a train to Scotland.  It is cheaper to travel by car often than to travel by bus or train


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