# Being made redundant tomorrow- help!



## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

I've been on holiday for a week. I got a phone call from work saying we have a meeting about my redundancy tomorrow.
I've worked for this woman for 13 years. I had a contract at the beginning but the job has changed significantly since then. I have asked repeatedly for a new contract but none has appeared.
We have a strange sort of 'friends' relationship so much of my time there has been built on trust.
There is no union for what I do, I'm a theatrical agent working for one boss with just one other person doing pretty much the same as me (only she is full time and I have been part time on 29 hours per week). BECTU, EQUITY and the TUC can't help me. ACAS told me that I am entitled to 12 weeks notice with 14.5 weeks pay.
What else do I need to know? 
I'm trying not to panic but I am the main breadwinner of the family with no fucking transferable skills and I feel shat on.


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## Hocus Eye. (Sep 14, 2010)

I can't help you in practice but would like to express my sympathy. That sounds like a terrible deal. You will have lots transferable skills though as you will realise when the shock passes.


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## softybabe (Sep 14, 2010)

So sorry, it's not a good way to end your holiday....is there a reason you're being made redundant?  Any other role you could fill?


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## Pickman's model (Sep 14, 2010)

see my pm


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

Was there talk of redundancy before now or was this completely out of the blue?

Seems really nasty to spring it on you like that so please don't let them use this 'friend's relationship' on you when negogiating a proper payoff etc.


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## gabi (Sep 14, 2010)

Sorry to hear this, but as someone else pointed out you'd be surprised how many skills are transferrable. New employers in a different sector would also look favourably on having a former theatre agent come on board I think. I've often hired people from totally different sectors if poss to freshen things up. 

Good luck, get on reed.co.uk btw in case you aren't already.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks all. Right, am now determind to look on the positive. Never liked that stupid fuckarse job anyway

However, one pressing thing I'm not clear on, do you actually WORK out your notice when you have been made redundant? Is it like being sacked when you get marched from your desk like a criminal or am I expected to sit there and work hard to forward other people's careers when mine has been sold down the river? 
I mean, if I was a person of no integrity, I would fuck up the system and steal the clients for myself, wouldn't I? I'm not so I wouldn't but surely that must be in my employers mind so does that mean I go to work for the next 12 weeks with this shit hanging over me? 
Either way, nasty nasty nasty.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Thanks all. Right, am now determind to look on the positive. Never liked that stupid fuckarse job anyway
> 
> However, one pressing thing I'm not clear on, do you actually WORK out your notice when you have been made redundant? Is it like being sacked when you get marched from your desk like a criminal or am I expected to sit there and work hard to forward other people's careers when mine has been sold down the river?
> I mean, if I was a person of no integrity, I would fuck up the system and steal the clients for myself, wouldn't I? I'm not so I wouldn't but surely that must be in my employers mind so does that mean I go to work for the next 12 weeks with this shit hanging over me?
> Either way, nasty nasty nasty.


 
Some employers may put you on gardening leave to avoid any unpleasant atmosphere or you stealing clients. If it is a smaller outfit you may well have to work your notice, this however will be something you should bargain about during the meeting. Please don't let your friendship and the trust thing be used to manipulate you. 

Technically speaking, keeping the details of your contacts isn't stealing....


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

I absolutely will not let the 'friendship' thing effect this at all. I realised some time ago that it was fake and worthless. Part of the business I was in, I suppose

But I'm still not clear, do I want to fight to stay for the next 12 weeks or not? What puts me in the stronger position?
It's a fight to just get the best deal for myself now and I intend to win.

The good thing is, I have much better social skills than she does


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## yardbird (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Technically speaking, keeping the details of your contacts isn't stealing....



When I was in the music biz, I always kept an up to date duplicate filofax just in case - and it's not stealing.


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## Hocus Eye. (Sep 14, 2010)

As you haven't had your contract updated in years, your boss won't have been able to insert a clause preventing you from setting up on your own and taking her clients. Maybe you could work from home self-employed doing the same kind of work. All you need is the client telephone list.

I think you might be expected to continue working for the 12 weeks but there is no need to strain any muscles.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

I've PMd you but as this seems a fait accompli I suggest you let her totally fuck up the meeting tomorrow (seems likely that she will, she's already about to dismiss you without e.g. right of accompaniment). It will all be ammunition for when you negotiate for a better settlement.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I mean, if I was a person of no integrity, I would fuck up the system and steal the clients for myself, wouldn't I?



You'd be a mug not to if the option is there. Your employer only has themself to blame for 'letting you go'.


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 14, 2010)

Yuk.

Sorry to hear that.

This (from CAB) has plenty on redundancy procedures / law and so on.

Gut feeling is that if you are asked to work out your notice period, then you will have to.  Employer may choose to give you 'garden leave' or pay in lieu of notice - although i think you would not be able to claim the dole until the end of the time you're legally employed rather than the day you actually stop working there.

be aware that if you just walk out - or if you leave to start another job before the end of the redundancy period (the CAB says there is a legal procedure to follow if you do this) then you might bugger up your redundancy pay.  you are however allowed time off for job hunting (i guess to a 'reasonable' level)

just a little thought - why you chosen for redundancy?  i *think* that it is not lawful to discriminate against part time workers...


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

Re the notice and/or gardening leave issue - need to see contract. Tactics-wise, get as much info as possible and leave meeting in floods of tears saying you'll contact them later.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

No really, I don't want to set myself up as an independant agent. I would have done it long ago if I thought it was a goer. But Cesare, how do I sit back and let her fuck it up? I'm thinking of just maintaining a bit of a dignified silence until I hear what she is suggesting. Is that what you mean? I mean, she's not stupid unfortunately and her husband was something big in unions so she probably has been doing some homework about what she can get away with.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

Write everything she says down and check that you have heard/written correctly....As others with experience and knowledge have said she has not approached this in the right way and there's a fair chance that despite her husband's background she will cock up. This is a shit situation for you but it is important that you get all the details from her before deciding what to do next/understand fully what your position is.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> Re the notice and/or gardening leave issue - need to see contract. Tactics-wise, get as much info as possible and leave meeting in floods of tears saying you'll contact them later.


 
Aha, thank you, I can do that. All these years working with neurotic narcissists will not have been in vain


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> No really, I don't want to set myself up as an independant agent. I would have done it long ago if I thought it was a goer. But Cesare, how do I sit back and let her fuck it up? I'm thinking of just maintaining a bit of a dignified silence until I hear what she is suggesting. Is that what you mean? I mean, she's not stupid unfortunately and her husband was something big in unions so she probably has been doing some homework about what she can get away with.



Dignified silence is good. Then when she runs out of things to say, ask her a few questions (as appropriate from the facts so far and what she says in the meeting) e.g. what about my notice? Why me? What selection criteria did you use? Why is this the first I've heard about it?  Why didn't you offer me the right of accompaniment? Etc.

If her husband's big in unions I'm surprised she hasn't gone down the proper consultation process and handled this meeting properly. Maybe she hasn't asked him, or is a bit over confident that you'll just roll over and accept whatever she does?

In any event, getting overcome with emotion and leaving the meeting once you've found out as much as possible gives you an advantage. Emphasises your reaction to her poor behaviour & gives you opportunity to take advice as to next steps without having to work in the meantime.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

Puddy_Tat said:


> Yuk.
> 
> Sorry to hear that.
> 
> ...


 

I imagine that I was chosen over my colleague because
I am part time
I have a child with special educational needs who has been excluded from school twice and I have had to attend meeting/ tribunals because of this ( all with her apparent blessing at the time)
My colleague does the accounts for the company which I can't do ( I wasn't employed to do this however)
My colleague is full time
My colleague has no family and so is able to attend any theatre shows at any time, which I am not. These outings are not counted as overtime, you just get expenses and I have done as many as I am able over the years.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Aha, thank you, I can do that. All these years working with neurotic narcissists will not have been in vain


 
Ain't that the truth  'Neurotic narcissists' ... so many of them in that industry. Massage their egos whilst you're working, but when they fuck you over do it back tenfold.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I imagine that I was chosen over my colleague because
> I am part time
> I have a child with special educational needs who has been excluded from school twice and I have had to attend meeting/ tribunals because of this ( all with her apparent blessing at the time)
> My colleague does the accounts for the company which I can't do ( I wasn't employed to do this however)
> ...


 
Don't get drawn into any of this at the meeting though ... just hear what she has to say and make a note of it.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> I've PMd you but as this seems a fait accompli I suggest you let her totally fuck up the meeting tomorrow (seems likely that she will, she's already about to dismiss you without e.g. right of accompaniment). It will all be ammunition for when you negotiate for a better settlement.


 
Which will be pointless unless you have some sort of evidence of the contents of the meeting.

Unless someone is capable of causing damage to the business knowing they are leaving, usually the notice would be worked.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

And tomorrow it's VM boys first day at a secondary school which I had to threated with a tribunal before they would let him in because of his statement of sen.
Honestly, I feel a bit punch drunk but BRING IT FUCKING ON.......


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## Puddy_Tat (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> Don't get drawn into any of this at the meeting though ... just hear what she has to say and make a note of it.


 
indeed.  

it is better to go away and think about it, then have an argument when you've got over any shock.

i guess that if your colleague does duties that you don't, then that would (legally) be a valid reason.  *just* because you're part time possibly isn't.

ACAS have more info on redundancy - they also have a telephone advice line that individuals can ring, they don't just do high profile disputes.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Which will be pointless unless you have some sort of evidence of the contents of the meeting.
> 
> Unless someone is capable of causing damage to the business knowing they are leaving, usually the notice would be worked.


 So what are you suggesting and on what basis?


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> And tomorrow it's VM boys first day at a secondary school which I had to threated with a tribunal before they would let him in because of his statement of sen.
> Honestly, I feel a bit punch drunk but BRING IT FUCKING ON.......



You could just go sick and concentrate on VM boy. What they going to do in retaliation? Sack you? lol. Do it ... just phone in sick.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Which will be pointless unless you have some sort of evidence of the contents of the meeting.
> 
> Unless someone is capable of causing damage to the business knowing they are leaving, usually the notice would be worked.


 
Yes, but technically I would be able to cause damage. The boss has been hands off for years and I know more about the business than she does. Of course I won't use this- I'm not a bastard and I still feel some responsibility to the clients ( after all, I've known them for ages) but I could and she must know that.
Anyway, I will keep my powder dry and squeeze out some tears and see what happens. Shit.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> So what are you suggesting and on what basis?


 
Simply if there is no record of the contents of the meeting, _its irrelevant what she says_, because when it comes to the crunch its a he said she said situation. That will be no help to the OP. From here on in (and probbably should have been beforehand) there should be a paper trail.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Simply if there is no record of the contents of the meeting, _its irrelevant what she says_, because when it comes to the crunch its a he said she said situation. That will be no help to the OP. From here on in (and probbably should have been beforehand) there should be a paper trail.


 
Well she could take notes. check them and ask the boss to sign and date them before she leaves the meeting. Seeing as though they have not offered her the right to accompliment I think that would be a reasonable request.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> You could just go sick and concentrate on VM boy. What they going to do in retaliation? Sack you? lol. Do it ... just phone in sick.


 
Hmm, I am going to want the mother of all references, though, so perhaps I need her to keep feeing guilty?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> and squeeze out some tears and see what happens.


 
Cheap tactic that does not help you in any way. I dont know enough about the sector but in my industry, we dont have sales people work their notice because of the possible negative side effects.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> perhaps I need her to keep feeing guilty?


 
Shooting yourself in the foot, you need to be business like.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Well she could take notes. check them and ask the boss to sign and date them before she leaves the meeting. Seeing as though they have not offered her the right to accompliment I think that would be a reasonable request.


 
Yes.. however a written statement is really what should be looked for. Anything else is dodgy.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

Since I have no union, who could I have asked to represent me anyway? But I think writing it down and getting her to sign it sounds like a good idea, thank you.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

Grit, are you more supportive when you've had a joint? Just saying.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Grit, are you more supportive when you've had a joint? Just saying.


 
Nah I'm always a horrible cunt 

Sorry, I'm trying to be tough love here rather than nasty.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> *Since I have no union, who could I have asked to represent me anyway?* But I think writing it down and getting her to sign it sounds like a good idea, thank you.


 
I'm not sure. My sis in the past had a friend accompany her....this friend however was a employment lawyer...my sis's boss didn't know that at the time though and royally fucked up.

I think the point is to have a witness.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Simply if there is no record of the contents of the meeting, _its irrelevant what she says_, because when it comes to the crunch its a he said she said situation. That will be no help to the OP. From here on in (and probbably should have been beforehand) there should be a paper trail.


 
Unless there's a full objective record of each conversation/meeting, it always comes down to who a Tribunal choose to believe (if it gets that far). But none of it's irrelevant, and I don't think you should try and deter VM for pursuing unfairness on the basis of facts that aren't your fucking place to decide, chief.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> But none of it's irrelevant, and I don't think you should try and deter VM for pursuing unfairness on the basis of facts that aren't your fucking place to decide, chief.


 
If its not on paper, it never happened.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Nah I'm always a horrible cunt
> 
> Sorry, I'm trying to be tough love here rather than nasty.


 
You're doing IT forensic type shit rather than what actually happens in employment disputes. I don't see how you're helping here.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> If its not on paper, it never happened.



Total fucking bollocks.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> You're doing IT forensic type shit rather than what actually happens in employment disputes.



I'm dealing with facts and the concept that evidence of the situation is required to assist the OP. I think I've given pretty practical advice, get it on paper, hardly rocket surgery is it?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> Total fucking bollocks.


 
I can just see it "but but when we were having coffee you said blah blah blah", thats really going to be convincing to a third party isint it?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

Grit, I fear you are about to be eaten alive....shall I administer the last rites?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Grit, I fear you are about to be eaten alive....shall I administer the last rites?


 
I'm a big boy, I can look after myself 

However I appreciate the concern!


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

You're trying to tell someone who works in law how to do their job you thick twat.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You're trying to tell someone who works in law how to do their job you thick twat.


 
Then she should understand the importance of documentation dontcha think?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> I'm a big boy, I can look after myself



I don't doubt that however I do think you should leave the *unequivocal* (not anecdotal) advice to those who do this kind of thing for a living.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You're trying to tell someone who works in law how to do their job you thick twat.


 
Then she should understand the importance of documentation dontcha think?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

Grit, tough love is love afterall but I can only work with the tools I have now, which are fucking few. The world I work in is full of stupid cheap tactics and I'm not going to cheat- I probably will feel genuinely tearful and she probably will feel guilty. I'm just going to go with that as I have nothing else.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Hmm, I am going to want the mother of all references, though, so perhaps I need her to keep feeing guilty?



You know enough people in the industry to get personal references. Anyways, legally agreed reference from her would be part of settlement if we playthis right.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Then she should understand the importance of documentation dontcha think?


 
Because you know more than she does on the subject?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

dp


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Because you know more than she does on the subject?


 
You don't need to domain specific knowledge to know that you need it recorded for it to stand up to scrutiny. Is this not painfully obvious?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> You don't need to domain specific knowledge to know that you need it recorded for it to stand up to scrutiny. Is this not painfully obvious?


 
Is getting the minutes signed as already suggested not enough?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> I don't doubt that however I do think you should leave the *unequivocal* (not anecdotal) advice to those who do this kind of thing for a living.


 
Its not anecdotal though, its common sense. If a third party needs to become involved (lets hope not but just in case), doesn't it ring true that the OP would be in a far stronger position if she had evidence that the boss has fucked up rather than using *anecdotal evidence herself*??


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> You don't need to domain specific knowledge to know that you need it recorded for it to stand up to scrutiny. Is this not painfully obvious?


 
What's painfully obvious is that you don't have a clue about employment disputes.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Is getting the minutes signed as already suggested not enough?


 
I'd have a very strong preference for a written statement from the employer. If this was me, I wouldn't respond to anything until I had a document that outlined her position.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

I have nothing documented up to this point, but neither does she.
Tomorrow it will be in writing and signed. 
Should I really bring someone? It's such late notice I'm not sure how to do that now.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Its not anecdotal though, its common sense. If a third party needs to become involved (lets hope not but just in case), doesn't it ring true that the OP would be in a far stronger position if she had evidence that the boss has fucked up rather than using anecdotal evidence herself??


 
Grit, read what's already been posted/suggested etc. Oh and btw, I am sure that there have been tribunal cases where no written records were presented/existed. Of course it helps, as has been suggested but if she doesn't manage to get any she will just have her word.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I have nothing documented up to this point, but neither does she.
> Tomorrow it will be in writing and signed.
> Should I really bring someone? It's such late notice I'm not sure how to do that now.


 
What do you feel that you could achieve having someone else there, that you couldnt without (thats a genuine question btw).


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> I'd have a very strong preference for a written statement from the employer. If this was me, I wouldn't respond to anything until I had a document that outlined her position.


 
Yebbut, VM has to go (if she doesn't phone in sick) to the meeting tomorrow without any such document - you muppet.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I have nothing documented up to this point, but neither does she.


 
How do you know that?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> What do you feel that you could achieve having someone else there, that you couldnt without (thats a genuine question btw).


 
Isn't having another person there for support and to bear witness?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> Yebbut, VM has to go (if she doesn't phone in sick) to the meeting tomorrow without any such document - you muppet.


 
Its the boss that needs to supply the document ffs. I cower in fear on behalf of the people that you would represent in a legal situation, god help them.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

Grit, you are out of order and making yourself look stupid.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I have nothing documented up to this point, but neither does she.
> Tomorrow it will be in writing and signed.
> Should I really bring someone? It's such late notice I'm not sure how to do that now.



*One* of the strengths of your position is that she hasn't allowed you the right of accompaniment. That's extra £££s for that failure, so don't go rushing round trying to find someone last minute


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> What do you feel that you could achieve having someone else there, that you couldnt without (thats a genuine question btw).


 
What good do you think a witness would do in a meeting like this? Come on, you're the fucking expert.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Grit, you are out of order and making yourself look stupid.


 
I give as good as I get.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> What good do you think a witness would do in a meeting like this? Come on, you're the fucking expert.


 
Fuck all, thats what a *written record* is for!


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Fuck all, thats what a *written record* is for!


 
You really haven't got a fucking clue. Stick to web designing. Or not as the case may be.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> I give as good as I get.


 
Nah, you should have backed down before now, it was easy to do by saying you hadn't relised the the 'documentation' advice had already been given. Now you are having cheap shots and looking a bit silly.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> You really haven't got a fucking clue. Stick to web designing. Or not as the case may be.


 
Unless the person is trained in employment law or something similar they wont really have any effect.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Its the boss that needs to supply the document ffs. I cower in fear on behalf of the people that you would represent in a legal situation, god help them.



Fuck's sake  I regularly get people far more than they would normally get if they played by your rules you absolute employers' choice fucking muppet. Argh.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Unless the person is trained in employment law or something similar they wont really have any effect.



Out of interest, how many people have you represented in disciplinaries / employment tribunals?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Its the boss that needs to supply the document ffs. I cower in fear on behalf of the people that you would represent in a legal situation, god help them.


 
She certainly has nothing that I have signed. What could it have said, anyway ' I hearby give you leave to make me redundant with no disadvantage to you or recourse to the law'? 
Don't worry, I'm going to get this bollocks done as properly as I can.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Out of interest, how many people have you represented in disciplinaries / employment tribunals?


 
Never had to because I know how to play the game that I've never had to make use of such services


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Never had to because I know how to play the game that I've never had to make use of such services


 
Well stop handing out useless advice then.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> Well stop handing out useless advice then.


 
What part of, document everything is useless advice?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> What part of, document everything is useless advice?


 
If the employer doesn't follow procedure to the letter of the law then it's to the advantage of the employee. How about Vauxhall mum just prints off a PDF about it all and hand it over upon arrival?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> If the employer doesn't follow procedure to the letter of the law then it's to the advantage of the employee. How about Vauxhall mum just prints off a PDF about it all and hand it over upon arrival?


 
Can we agree she needs evidence to demonstrate the employer has failed to follow procedure?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> What part of, document everything is useless advice?


 
 Back to the beginning I see. 

Vauxhall Mum, i'm off to bed but wish you all the best tomorrow. Get as much info as possible as this will help you plan your next step.

Good luck!


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Back to the beginning I see.
> 
> )


 
Not by my choice thats for sure.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Can we agree she needs evidence to demonstrate the employer has failed to follow procedure?


 
That is what a tribunal would ascertain. Asking for documented evidence would set alarm bells fucking ringing.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> That is what a tribunal would ascertain. Asking for documented evidence would set alarm bells fucking ringing.


 
So your default position now is that she is going to have to go a tribunal, wonderful.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> That is what a tribunal would ascertain. Asking for documented evidence would set alarm bells fucking ringing.


 
So your default position now is that she is going to have to go a tribunal, wonderful.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> So your default position now is that she is going to have to go a tribunal, wonderful.


 
So your default position is that you should make sure the employer is following the letter of the law to help the employer and thus weakening your own bargaining position?


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> So your default position is that you should make sure the employer is following the letter of the law to help the employer and thus weakening your own bargaining position?


 
Well if she is following the letter of the law, than that makes sure she isint fucking the OP about yes?


----------



## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

No tribunal, no cheap stunts. Just information gathering and asking reasonably for my ' notes' to be signed as a correct record of what has been said. 
That's all I can do. Which is a better position than I was in a few hours ago, so thank you all. x


----------



## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> No tribunal, no cheap stunts. Just information gathering and asking reasonably for my ' notes' to be signed as a correct record of what has been said.
> That's all I can do. Which is a better position than I was in a few hours ago, so thank you all. x


 
Good woman, I wish you the best of luck, let us know how you get on.


----------



## Citizen66 (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Well if she is following the letter of the law, than that makes sure she isint fucking the OP about yes?


 
If she is following the letter of the law (and it doesn't sound like she is) she won't be fucking the op about and has nothing to worry about.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

Citizen66 said:


> If she is following the letter of the law (and it doesn't sound like she is) she won't be fucking the op about and has nothing to worry about.


 
So then its a good thing for her to do it! YAY for logic!


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 14, 2010)

(((Vauxhallmum)))


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

grit said:


> Good woman, I wish you the best of luck, let us know how you get on.



You're an employer's dream. And then you wish her luck. Cunt.


----------



## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

cesare said:


> You're an employer's dream. And then you wish her luck. Cunt.


 
and I dont even need to resort to personal insults 

Your calm composure and ability to articulate your arguments must serve you well in life


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 14, 2010)

Oi, I've lost my job, here! Naff off with your silly fights.


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## cesare (Sep 14, 2010)

.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Oi, I've lost my job, here! Naff off with your silly fights.


 
Only because you asked


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 14, 2010)

Okay, transferable skills:  

* time management skills, ability to prioritise and manage your workload (juggling different bookings, different clients, urgent jobs, client with a broken leg or fallen ill) - and doing all that when you work part-time earns you additional brownie points, I reckon
* managing a diary, making appointments
* marketing and selling skills - you're marketing and selling both your clients and your company's services
* negotiation skills - this is a really important skill, especially over a telephone
* processing relevant paperwork, drawing up contracts, ensuring that they've been signed, filing them, processing payments - raising invoices and paying invoices (well, you might be doing it yourself, or you might be instigating that process, delegating it to someone else?)

There will be more, this is just what I've thought of off the top of my head.


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## grit (Sep 14, 2010)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Okay, transferable skills:
> 
> * time management skills, ability to prioritise and manage your workload (juggling different bookings, different clients, urgent jobs, client with a broken leg or fallen ill) - and doing all that when you work part-time earns you additional brownie points, I reckon
> * managing a diary, making appointments
> ...



Glad someone else posted it, I don't know much about what the OP does but it seemed like she was doing herself a disservice with that comment.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 14, 2010)

You might find some of these links useful:

http://www.artsjobs.org.uk/
http://www.artsjobfinder.co.uk/
http://www.artsprofessional.co.uk/


ETA:  And keep checking the Arts Council website as well, in case they have any internal jobs.  I used to be an arts administrator (for music and drama, and then for dance and combined arts) for the North West Arts Board.  I'm sure that kind of thing is well within your capabilities.  Seriously, if I can do it...!  Snag is, they might be more likely to be laying people off than taking them on at the moment, but you never know, keep your eye out.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

I reckon you could broaden your horizons and consider:

* setting up yourself as a more general artistes/artists agent, i.e. don't restrict yourself to theatrical, try to expand into other areas, don't put all your eggs in one basket (actors, performance artists, musicians) - this way, you'd be your own boss and set your own working hours 
* try to find work with other theatrical agents
* try to find work with other agents - working for a publishing agent, there are loads of publishers in London, presumably a fair few publishing agents as well?  Cloo may or may not be able to mention a few names, give you a few pointers?  Or a musicians' agent (don't kow if they have separate agents, or whether it would mean working for a record label?)
* try to find work on the other side of the transaction, for a theatre company or film production company or television drama department?
* use your logistical, organising and planning skills in a related area, organising arts events or festivals, working for galleries or museums, booking their events, exhibition previews, seminars, educational workshops, fundraising events.
* again use your logistical, organising and planning skills in something that's not so arty, but still might welcome transferable skills, a conference venue or something?

Again, that's just off the top of my head, will come back to this when I think of more.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

* Part-time Outdoor Events Co-ordinator, City of London Festival
Dependent on experience but will not be less than £20,000 per annum pro rata
http://www.colf.org/uploaded_pdfs/Job description - Outdoor Events Co-ordinator.pdf

It's only half time (but full time for five weeks when festival's on).  Perhaps you could do something like this to get some steady regular income, and then do some freelance theatrical agent stuff on the side?


------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sadler's Wells Events Manager 
"We are recruiting an Events Manager to oversee internal and external use of space in our buildings and generate new business"
http://www.sadlerswells.com/page/vacancies

You've previously overseen the best use of human resources, as opposed physical building resources, you've generated business for your clients and your company. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------
This one's full-time 40 hours though.   Is there anyone you know who might be interested in applying for jobs on a job-share basis?  Or could you contact organisations and ask them about jobshare?  Again, jobshare might only be 20 hours, but you might be able to boost your income with some freelance theatrical agent stuff.
http://www.thealbany.org.uk/news/Head-of-Business-Development


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

And what about something like this?  Part-time (three days per week), it involves sending out press packs (don't you have to send out head shots and CVs and stuff? similar thing innit?), maintaining clippings file (don't you keep reviews and clippings about your clients?), dealing with enquiries, making bookings...
=========================================================== 

Somerset House Trust has an opportunity for an enthusiastic and motivated individual to join as part-time PR Assistant.

You will work closely with the PR Manager to ensure that media coverage of the Trust and all its cultural and artistic activities is managed efficiently and effectively.

You will have experience of working in a PR role and will be responsible for ensuring that projects and launches are handled in a professional manner.

The ideal candidate will have previously worked in the cultural and entertainment sectors, will have experience of liaising with media in a wide variety of forms, and will also have a keen interest in the Arts.

Please download the full job description and person specification using the link below.

> download job description   http://www.somersethouse.org.uk/about_somerset_house/job_opportunities/default.asp

Please submit your CV and covering letter to jobs@somersethouse.org.uk 

The closing date for applications is 1 October 2010.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

Basically, just make a list of all the theatrical venues and broader arts venues that you can think of and check their websites for vacancies, as well as checking those arts job listings, and the Guardian website.

And another thought just occurred to me, if you're used to dealing with actor/luvvy/celebrity types, another option might be to try to find a job working for a charity.  Lots of charities nowadays have a special section or department that deals with their patrons/famous brand ambassadors, booking their public speaking events, dealing with media and public requests http://charityjob.co.uk/


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

Wtf, head in hands. She's gonna be sacked after 13 years service tomorrow


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

I know it must seem really bloody terrifying, when you haven't been in the looking-for-a-job market for more than a decade, and you must have an awareness of the recession and how hard some people are finding it, so that can't be helping any, and there's the added pressure of you being the main breadwinner...   

*  But get yourself a cup of tea and some cake and sit down and make a list of transferable skills.  Google things like CV template and transferable skills and have a look and see what's listed, I reckon you'll be able to recognise some of them and write them down on your list.

* Make a list of contacts.  Email or phone people and say hello and just mention that you're looking for a job and you'd appreciate it if they hear anything on the grapevine if they'd let you know (the arts world operates very much on appointments being filled by word of mouth via the grapevine, because lots of organisations just don't have the budget to advertise vacancies widely or to go through an expensive recruitment process involving hundreds of applicants and shortlisting and loads of interviews, although then again, a lot of arts organisations are hot on equal opps).  The key thing is not to restrict yourself to just looking for a job by yourself, rope other people, your friends and contacts into looking for a job for you as well, get them to keep their ear to the ground and let you know of any opportunities.

* Start looking for current vacancies, on arts jobs websites, but also search for the websites of other organisations, to see if they've advertised a vacancy on their own website.

I think once you've done some of that, you'll start to feel more positive about your situation and your future options, they're not necessarily as doom and gloom as you're currently fearing.


----------



## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> Wtf, head in hands. She's gonna be sacked after 13 years service tomorrow


I know, it's shit.  Loyalty is all one way nowadays.  Companies expect their staff to work silly hours, work overtime for no extra pay, put up with loads of crap.  And then in return, they just treat people like disposable commodities.    It's a harsh world we're living in, that's for sure.


----------



## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

All good stuff Annie - but she's got to get through tomorrow first.


edit: step at a time. Not everything ends up in catastrophe. Sometimes you can fucking pwn them VM, gotta a couple of recent ones under my belt VM, don't give up and don't give in! Just listen then pwn them sweet.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 15, 2010)

Oh, erm, sorry.  

I wanted to try and post some constructive stuff, so as not to sink into despondency and lack of hope, but you're right, perhaps not the time or place.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Oh, erm, sorry.
> 
> I wanted to try and post some constructive stuff, so as not to sink into despondency and lack of hope, but you're right, perhaps not the time or place.


 
I dunno, they all seemed like really constructive posts, just reminding the OP how her skills are transferable is a great thing I think.

cesare: we cool now? I'd like to actually continue this thread.


----------



## Puddy_Tat (Sep 15, 2010)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> *  But get yourself a cup of tea and some cake and sit down and make a list of transferable skills.  Google things like CV template and transferable skills and have a look and see what's listed, I reckon you'll be able to recognise some of them and write them down on your list.



I'd definitely agree about the tea and cake.  

Probably stating the bleeding obvious, but make sure any web advice on CVs (and such) is a UK site - some people come a cropper using a US based site and do whatever "the done thing" is there, hence their CVs look odd here.

And bear in mind there's so much advice out there that you can't possibly ever do a CV that is "right" according to every site you look at (or every agency you go to.)

In the words of Hitch Hiker's Guide, Don't Panic...


----------



## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

I just want to nail VM's employer that's done this shit to her after 13 years service. She doesn't deserve this and I don't fucking care about the grief for suggesting how she might do it.


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

AnnO'Neemus said:


> Oh, erm, sorry.
> 
> I wanted to try and post some constructive stuff, so as not to sink into despondency and lack of hope, but you're right, perhaps not the time or place.


 
I wasn't being horrible, all those things are important. But she's go a fucking awful day ahead before that.


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> I dunno, they all seemed like really constructive posts, just reminding the OP how her skills are transferable is a great thing I think.
> 
> cesare: we cool now? I'd like to actually continue this thread.



Yeah, we're cool. I get far to embroiled with all this social justice shit  Soz, over to you.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

edit: best wait until we have an update.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

Thanks AnnO'neemus, actually that will be a great help in the weeks to come. I have lots of tea and fags, no cake as yet.
I think I only said no transferable skills because I'm feeling like I've been hit by a bus, sometimes my self esteem gets low but I've been really good at this stupid job for years and have gained the respect of all the clients and casting directors, I think. I'm going to gather up my confidence and change my life and perhaps that will be the best thing that's happened to me.
That's AFTER I've got all I sodding deserve for my years of service. HA!
Wish me luck, I'm going in......


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## yield (Sep 15, 2010)

Good luck!


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## Spark (Sep 15, 2010)

It seems to me there's a bit of jumping ahead going on here. The OP only says that vauxhallmum is invited to a meeting today. Maybe it's a done deal and the decission has been made. Alternatively maybe it's just a first meeting to discuss potential redundancy, such as the reasons, why she's at risk, timescales etc. The other employee may also have had such a meeting.  

I'd suggest trying to keep an open mind and expect them to disscuss all the above with you.  If they don't, that's when they'll be messing up. Don't be afraid to ask for an adjournment to allow you time to consider everything and respond properly, eg put forward any alternative proposals you can think of.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

first my colleague heard about it was when she overheard boss leaving me the message about my 'reduncancy meeting' on my mobile.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2010)

Or so she says...


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> first my colleague heard about it was when she overheard boss leaving me the message about my 'reduncancy meeting' on my mobile.


 
She might be telling the truth, it doesn't matter really unless you feel she has a responsibility to you.

Good luck with the meeting!


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## yardbird (Sep 15, 2010)

I've been thinking about you vauxhallmum - still am. Good luck today.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

Feel a bit sick tbh.
Anyone know how I import the whole email address book to my hotmail account? That's not super illegal is it?


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## Ms T (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> I just want to nail VM's employer that's done this shit to her after 13 years service. She doesn't deserve this and I don't fucking care about the grief for suggesting how she might do it.


 
Applauds.  

VM - it's a shitty way to treat someone who's given 13 years loyal service.  Make sure you screw the bitch.  The fact that she's not following redundancy procedure is a good start.  Best of luck with it.


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## miss minnie (Sep 15, 2010)

Import contacts in Hotmail


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## Ms T (Sep 15, 2010)

BTW - listen to Spark.  Employment law is her business.  

(And cesare, obviously.)


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

miss minnie said:


> Import contacts in Hotmail


 
God I wish I could concentrate enough to  read that properly


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## Ms T (Sep 15, 2010)

(((vauxhallmum)))


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## miss minnie (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> God I wish I could concentrate enough to  read that properly


If you have a USB stick take it along.

Open up the email client, find the 'export' option, select the option to export in CSV format to a file and save it on the USB stick.

Later you will be able to import that file into almost any other email client.


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## miss minnie (Sep 15, 2010)

Doh!  The server seems to be on a mission to bump up the forum postcount today.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Feel a bit sick tbh.
> Anyone know how I import the whole email address book to my hotmail account? That's not super illegal is it?


 
you using outlook?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

Pickman's model said:


> you using outlook?



Yes but struggling a bit to keep it together. No USB stick

Just trying to breathe


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## 1927 (Sep 15, 2010)

VM I guess letting it be known that you MIGHT set up on ya own wouldn't do any harm, she might just offer you a bit more redundancy not to (make sure yiou have copied all those contacts first tho). I'm also pretty sure that pay in lieu of notice is tax free so make sure she doesn't tax you if she takes that option.


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## miss minnie (Sep 15, 2010)

1927 said:


> I'm also pretty sure that pay in lieu of notice is tax free so make sure she doesn't tax you if she takes that option.


Ah, now that one I have first hand experience of.  It now depends on the contract.  If any mention is made of pay-in-lieu of notice it will be taxed.  If no mention then any pay is considered a gift and not taxable.

Whole bunch of us were caught out by stupid new American bosses who kindly changed our contracts to mention that they promised to pay us in lieu of notice.  Nice, but the law changed during the past decade so after consultation with lawyers we had to pay tax on our lieu.


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## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

Just got out of bed, VM, did you get your contacts exported ok?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Just got out of bed, VM, did you get your contacts exported ok?


 
No. but I suppose they are easily findable later.
From what I can gather, this meeting is going to be some sort of 'what can we do to turn this company around' conversation. If so, I don't know why her opening gambit was 'to discuss your redunancy' but fuck it, who knows.
So, since I have now decided that I want to be made redundant - breakdown of trust, feeling underappreciated etc etc, what should I suggest in this meeting?
A few ideas
We only represent clowns and chimney sweeps from now on
We answer the phone in the nude
We rename the company BP
Or do I have to really pretend to be contributing to a sensible conversation about where the fucking company goes from here?
I mean, I don't know! If I did know how to fix it I would have done it already.


----------



## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

The same tactics (overcome with emotion and feeling poorly) will buy you a couple of days to think about what you want to do, and work out a plan without the stress of being at work.


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## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> No. but I suppose they are easily findable later.
> From what I can gather, this meeting is going to be some sort of 'what can we do to turn this company around' conversation. If so, I don't know why her opening gambit was 'to discuss your redunancy' but fuck it, who knows.
> So, since I have now decided that I want to be made redundant - breakdown of trust, feeling underappreciated etc etc, what should I suggest in this meeting?
> A few ideas
> ...


 
When is it scheduled for, my advice is mouth shut ears open. Are you honestly 100% committed that you want to be made redundant?


----------



## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

It's in 50 mins. Yes I want out. Big fucking time.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> It's in 50 mins. Yes I want out. Big fucking time.


 
Ok fair enough, for what its worth I wouldn't say anything that would negatively impact you getting a reference, as I seem to remember that was quite important to you?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

I will act my little socks off and remain polite but DEVASTATED


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> I will act my little socks off and remain polite but DEVASTATED


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> If its not on paper, it never happened.


 
That'll be news to tribunals and courts throughout the land. I cordially suggest you acquaint yourself with contractual law.


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## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Then she should understand the importance of documentation dontcha think?


 
She does, as it pertains to employment. And far better than you do, obviously!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> Grit, you are out of order and making yourself look stupid.


 
No change there, then.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> I give as good as I get.


 
No, you only think you do, because you're not very well-informed on the subject you're holding forth on.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

Same thing again VP, read the whole thread before you reply, its really good practice, as with the police thread you are too late, this has all been covered.


----------



## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

Aaaaaanywaaaay. It's nearly one o'clock. Good luck VM.


----------



## ymu (Sep 15, 2010)

Yeah, but sometimes someone is just so spectacularly stupid, you just have to comment before getting to the end of the thread...

*looks sternly over top of glasses at grit


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> So your default position now is that she is going to have to go a tribunal, wonderful.


 
It's something that the boss should be considering. That's why there are set procedures that have been legislated.
Any employer that doesn't follow those procedures (and that includes providing some type of _pro forma_ detailing the ins and outs of the action being taken) deserves to be taken to a tribunal. It's the only way some employers learn that the regulations are there for a reason. It's really that simple.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> Wtf, head in hands. She's gonna be sacked after 13 years service tomorrow


 
By a dim-bulb who probably won't follow procedure, and will get all "why is my former employee persecuting me? It's political correctness gorn mad!!" if VM pulls her on it.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's something that the boss should be considering. That's why there are set procedures that have been legislated.
> Any employer that doesn't follow those procedures (and that includes providing some type of _pro forma_ detailing the ins and outs of the action being taken) deserves to be taken to a tribunal. It's the only way some employers learn that the regulations are there for a reason. It's really that simple.


 
Where did I claim that it wasn't the case that she didnt deserve to be taken to the tribunal if she fucked about. *It just shouldn't be the default position*, maybe just fucking maybe try to resolve it without going there would be better for the OP no?

A lot of you sound like you just want the day out, several posters by their own admission reactions have been rage induced, rahter than calm calculated actions, which is how its supposed to be done.


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

ymu said:


> Yeah, but sometimes someone is just so spectacularly stupid, you just have to comment before getting to the end of the thread...
> 
> *looks sternly over top of glasses at grit


 
The sum of my advice was get things recorded on paper, how is this stupid?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Same thing again VP, read the whole thread before you reply.


I did, and I do. 


> its really good practice, as with the police thread you are too late, this has all been covered.


No it hasn't. 
If you'd read the thread, as you recommend others do, you'd know that.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> Aaaaaanywaaaay. It's nearly one o'clock. Good luck VM.


 
Absolutely!!


----------



## ymu (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> The sum of my advice was get things recorded on paper, how is this stupid?


_"Tell them how to do it right!"_


----------



## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

ymu said:


> _"Tell them how to do it right!"_


 
That makes no sense.


----------



## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

ymu said:


> _"Tell them how to do it right!"_


 
Aye. If there's any doubt as to whether they're going to do it right or not - don't provide them with useful clues that might disadvantage your negotiating position later.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Where did I claim that it wasn't the case that she didnt deserve to be taken to the tribunal if she fucked about.


I wasn't aware that I'd claimed that you'd claimed any such thing, probably because I haven't.


> *It just shouldn't be the default position*...


I wasn't aware I'd claimed it should be, probably because I haven't stated that it should be the "default position".


> maybe just fucking maybe try to resolve it without going there would be better for the OP no?


Of course, but clean resolution is predicated on the employer following procedure, as I made clear. 

Are you sure you're actually bothering to *read* posts, rather than just skimming them for stuff you can react to?


----------



## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

really quickly as boss is still here
she says we have one week to think of alternatives and has handed me a letter
also given and email some expert sent her saying she has to compare mine and my colleagues performance over the following week
So should I stay this afternoon? I already said I was feeling too sick to stay but am waiting for colleague to come back from lunch before I leave.
But now I don't know what to do


----------



## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

really quickly as boss is still here
she says we have one week to think of alternatives and has handed me a letter
also given and email some expert sent her saying she has to compare mine and my colleagues performance over the following week
So should I stay this afternoon? I already said I was feeling too sick to stay but am waiting for colleague to come back from lunch before I leave.
But now I don't know what to do


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> really quickly as boss is still here
> she says we have one week to think of alternatives and has handed me a letter
> also given and email some expert sent her saying she has to compare mine and my colleagues performance over the following week
> So should I stay this afternoon? I already said I was feeling too sick to stay but am waiting for colleague to come back from lunch before I leave.
> But now I don't know what to do


i'd go if i were you, because of the stress - avoidable stress - yr boss is putting you under.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> The sum of my advice was get things recorded on paper, how is this stupid?


 
Because it misses a couple of points, which are that in certain circumstances (an interview pertaining to redundancy, for example), discussions can be construed (by a tribunal, for example) as forming an oral contract, and that any recording of events doesn't *necessarily* constitute a true record unless both parties agree that it does (which is why the employer should either be having the meeting minuted or be recording it (with the consent of all parties) themselves.


----------



## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> Where did I claim that it wasn't the case that she didnt deserve to be taken to the tribunal if she fucked about. *It just shouldn't be the default position*, maybe just fucking maybe try to resolve it without going there would be better for the OP no?
> 
> A lot of you sound like you just want the day out, several posters by their own admission reactions have been rage induced, rahter than calm calculated actions, which is how its supposed to be done.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> That makes no sense.


 
I suspect ymu is saying (rightly) that in effect you're asking VM to do her boss's job for her, which could very well be to VM's eventual detriment.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

rather than engage with a shitfer like grit, perhaps people could get back to the object of this thread, which is helping vauxhallmum


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> really quickly as boss is still here
> she says we have one week to think of alternatives and has handed me a letter
> also given and email some expert sent her saying she has to compare mine and my colleagues performance over the following week
> So should I stay this afternoon? I already said I was feeling too sick to stay but am waiting for colleague to come back from lunch before I leave.
> But now I don't know what to do


 
Obv without seeing it; that sounds like an 'at risk' letter ... starting the consultation process. But it has to be _meaningful _consultation. I'm a bit doubtful about using performance over the coming week as a selection method (if that's what she's saying) and in any event, in order for consultation to be meaningful you should be consulted about the selection method rather than it being presented as a fait accompli (if that's what's happened).


----------



## ViolentPanda (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> Aye. If there's any doubt as to whether they're going to do it right or not - don't provide them with useful clues that might disadvantage your negotiating position later.


 
Exactly!


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

yes selection method is set, it seems
Letter is an at risk letter
stay or cesare? I need to look like I want my job, don't I?


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

actually I'm going. feel sick


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## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

I think I'll leave you lot to it, best of luck VM, you're going to need it with this lot advising you to be as abrasive as possible. I hope your inevitable tribunal rules in your favour.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> yes selection method is set, it seems
> Letter is an at risk letter
> stay or cesare? I need to look like I want my job, don't I?


 
what i wonder is what sort of performance is yr boss looking for when she's fucked you about (lack of contract / job description) and is fucking you about, talking about making you redundant and only at the last minute introducing some sort of half-arsed scheme which is unlikely to make the next week in the office at all pleasant.


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> yes selection method is set, it seems
> Letter is an at risk letter
> stay or cesare? I need to look like I want my job, don't I?



Personally, I'd go home sick/stressed and take some time to think about what I wanted to do. If you decide you want to stay in the job, it would be unfair to count this afternoon against you in the circumstances. If you decide you want to be made redundant, then acting quickly by going home sick/stressed will help tactically.


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## Pickman's model (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> actually I'm going. feel sick


 
go and get some air and try to relax.


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> I think I'll leave you lot to it, best of luck VM, you're going to need it with this lot advising you to be as abrasive as possible. I hope your inevitable tribunal rules in your favour.


 
No-one has advised VM to be abrasive - quite the reverse.


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## grit (Sep 15, 2010)

cesare said:


> She doesn't deserve this and I don't fucking care about the grief for suggesting how she might do it.



.


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

grit said:


> .


 
But none of that suggests that she should be abrasive.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

I wasn't abrasive at all. I was 'too dumbfounded to comprehend'


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## Teaboy (Sep 15, 2010)

I do find it slightly surprising that your boss expects you to come up with the idea that'll save your job.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

Christ I need a drink. Is the sun over the yardarm yet?
And Grit, I know you've gone but for the record I totally saw your point of view. I'm not angling for a tribunal, just the best I can get in the circumstances. And I'm not rage induced- I'm just, as my mother would say 'terribly terribly disappointed'


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 15, 2010)

anyway, is this legal criteria for choosing over 2 colleagues when one is part time?

    You will the compare their capabilities over the week to determine the best one to keep

o       Performance, attendance, sickness record, are there any disciplinary meetings against them, attitude, flexibility, skills, experience, specific capabilities i.e. payment of clients and generally any other comparators you can think of


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## cesare (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> anyway, is this legal criteria for choosing over 2 colleagues when one is part time?
> 
> You will the compare their capabilities over the week to determine the best one to keep
> 
> o       Performance, attendance, sickness record, are there any disciplinary meetings against them, attitude, flexibility, skills, experience, specific capabilities i.e. payment of clients and generally any other comparators you can think of


 
They can _propose_ selection criteria which might include those, yes. They have to be careful not to include criteria that are unlawfully discriminatory in their effect though.


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## yardbird (Sep 15, 2010)

I'm useless in this area as so much has changed since I was an employer, the whole thing sounds like 'short straw' to me.
After the time that you've worked for this person I find what is happening to you despicable.
I would never have treated someone who worked for me in this manner.
No help to you at all, but my thoughts are with you.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> From what I can gather, this meeting is going to be some sort of 'what can we do to turn this company around' conversation. If so, I don't know why her opening gambit was 'to discuss your redunancy' but fuck it, who knows.


 
 I suspect she played her hand too quickly. Or told you that to put the fear of god into you...either way, she cocked up.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 15, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> yes selection method is set, it seems
> Letter is an at risk letter
> stay or cesare? I need to look like I want my job, don't I?


 
My gut tells me she has already decided and is doing this 'at risk' shit to look like she is doing things properly.

Did your colleague get invited into a meeting about being made 'redundant' before being told about the 'at risk' thing?


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## Citizen66 (Sep 15, 2010)

I agree. She didn't call you in for "a meeting." She called you in for "a meeting about your redundancy."

Plain and simple.


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## RubyBlue (Sep 15, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> My gut tells me she has already decided and is doing this 'at risk' shit to look like she is doing things properly.
> 
> Did your colleague get invited into a meeting about being made 'redundant' before being told about the 'at risk' thing?


 
Not really clued up but there is loads of advice here but what Rutita! says rings true  

Good luck VHM - I'm leaving my job in 2 weeks (voluntary redundancy) - it seems you're not getting a good deal - there are folk here who can help - I hope they will / can  Take care x


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 16, 2010)

My colleague is a rabbit in the headlights at the moment, as she knows that if/when I go she will have to do all my work as well as her own (the boss has 3 other businesses and 3 kids so is hardly ever in the office).
She didn't even notice the thing about the so called points system of criteria for selection for redundancy, I took a chance and pointed it out to her myself.
I have worked with this woman for 11 years and consider her a good friend, so the idea of pitting myself against her in order to save my job is just disgusting.
It occurs to me that this could just be a tactic to get me to suggest cutting my pay as an alternative to redundancy. Bollocks to it, I stand firm. Fuck.


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 16, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> It occurs to me that this could just be a tactic to get me to suggest cutting my pay as an alternative to redundancy. Bollocks to it, I stand firm. Fuck.


 
They may be hoping you'll both agree to a pay cut.


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## vauxhallmum (Sep 16, 2010)

Rutita1 said:


> They may be hoping you'll both agree to a pay cut.


 
then why go through this charade of making us fight each other for our jobs?


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## Treacle Toes (Sep 16, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> then why go through this charade of making us fight each other for our jobs?


 
Divide and rule.

(((VM)))


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## Maidmarian (Sep 16, 2010)

Gawd knows WHAT the employer has in mind, but I'd start a "Diary of events" now --- chronological list of time & dates of all meetings/letters/phonecalls to date & what is said. When emotions run high it's easy to get mixed up & you need to be able to present a coherent case, if it comes to it. Good luck on getting a fair deal.


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## Teaboy (Sep 16, 2010)

It sounds to me that her mind is already made up, there will be at least one redundency and the rest is just an arse covering exercise.

When I was made redundent a couple of years ago I got the same bollocks, 'can anyone think up anything which would negate the need for redundencies?'.  I actually went away and came up with a few but no one was listening, the decision had already been made.


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## Citizen66 (Sep 16, 2010)

Yeah she's just going through the motions. Which is a bit nasty as you either have to jump through the hoops and lose your job any way, or ignore the charade and then be made to feel you've collaborated in bringing the axe down on yourself.


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## AnnO'Neemus (Sep 18, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> ...(the boss has 3 other businesses and 3 kids so is hardly ever in the office)...




Then surely the obvious answer to the 'What can we do to turn this company around?' question is for the boss to show a bit more of an interest in the company, for the boss to devote more time to the company's affairs and drumming up new business?


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## sorearm (Nov 24, 2010)

how's things???


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## vauxhallmum (Nov 24, 2010)

sorearm said:


> how's things???


 
Things are OK, I've learned alot about myself in the last few months!

I was offered only stat min payoff and three months notice in which I was required to go into the office 
I could have argued it legally on the grounds that she did not follow correct procedure, but I figured I wouldn't get much more out of her whatever happened and that I needed her onside for my future career. So I negotiated with her over the notice period and am now working it out from home but accepting stat min.  I do feel slightly stung but feel I have retained at least some dignity over this. It is honestly wonderful to not have to work in that ridiculous and self serving environment anymore. I didn't realise how unhappy I was in it.
On the downside I can't get an interview for love nor money so am totally re-thinking what I want to do with my life. It's fucking biiiig deal, that one and I'm still a work in progress-  hence my 'how stupid is pet visiting as a job?' thread 
But it's good having this time to reflect on what the fuck I've been doing with the last 13 years and I'm enjoying making lots of crafts (hoping they might be good enough to sell one day) and listening to alot of radio 4.
So, it's a bit of a curate's egg, as my mum would say, 'good in parts'.
Thanks for asking, sorearm.


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## miss minnie (Nov 24, 2010)

I love being 'between jobs', its usually a very productive time!

The last time was November 2008, I chilled out and made all of my xmas presents for friends and ended up having a fantastic xmas and ny, I felt far more relaxed than usual for that time of year and vowed to not even think about job hunting until January.  Amazing what can happen when you 'file' your problems/resolutions instead of fretting about them, I got a call in the second week of January from an old friend offering me contract work which was just perfect!

You are doing all the right things imo, more power to your serendipity!


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## sorearm (Nov 24, 2010)

yes sounds like you're recharging your batteries and having one of those life-audits. Very valuable to do every so often, I'm having one of those atm. I'm signed off work as unfit for work due to the last 6 months of hell, and although I'm in a 'shock' stage and feeling a bit flat/depressed, no doubt soon that will change in the new year and time for re-appraising of things... it's all good. 

Keep a positive frame of mind, which it sounds like you are doing.

... curate's egg, I like that!


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## Streathamite (Nov 24, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> anyway, is this legal criteria for choosing over 2 colleagues when one is part time?
> 
> You will the compare their capabilities over the week to determine the best one to keep
> 
> o       Performance, attendance, sickness record, are there any disciplinary meetings against them, attitude, flexibility, skills, experience, specific capabilities i.e. payment of clients and generally any other comparators you can think of


when I have time, I will call you, and we will go through your work record together, and build you a first rate Cv on the lines I outlined before


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## vauxhallmum (Nov 24, 2010)

Thanks Streathamite, any help is truly appreciated. Thing is though, I think my CV might be infused with 'eau de reluctance' as they can smell that I don't really want to be in that world of narcissists and egoists. Trying to rethink what I really want to do, rather than what I might fit into if I really beg and debase myself.


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## Streathamite (Nov 25, 2010)

vauxhallmum said:


> Trying to rethink what I really want to do, rather than what I might fit into if I really beg and debase myself.


that is very sensible indeed


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