# Blackwood man faces terrorism charges



## niclas (Oct 27, 2009)

Is this of the BNP "let's start a race war" variety of terrorism? Compared to some high-profile police raids on the Muslim variety, it's very hush hush.



> A 24-year-old man was charged under the Terrorism Act tonight.
> 
> Darren Tinklin, of Blackwood, Gwent, was questioned by the Metropolitan Police Service Counter Terrorism Command after being arrested on Wednesday.
> 
> ...


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## Corax (Oct 27, 2009)

Damn.  I was hoping it was Richard.


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## kained&able (Oct 28, 2009)

danm. i was going to do that joke corax.


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## LilMissHissyFit (Oct 28, 2009)

given that its been all over the national news this evening Id hardly call it hush hush compared with muslim arrests....

You want the BNP to start a race war youre helping them by drawing comparisons


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## bluestreak (Oct 28, 2009)

Has no-one mentioned Richard yet FFS?


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## Corax (Oct 28, 2009)

Corax said:


> Damn.  I was hoping it was Richard.





kained&able said:


> danm. i was going to do that joke corax.





bluestreak said:


> Has no-one mentioned Richard yet FFS?


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## spartacus mills (Oct 28, 2009)

A quick google search turned up this


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## ddraig (Oct 29, 2009)

LilMissHissyFit said:


> given that its been all over the national news this evening Id hardly call it hush hush compared with muslim arrests....
> 
> You want the BNP to start a race war youre helping them by drawing comparisons



yes but i reckon if it was a muslim more would be made of it and for example it would be the main story on the bbc Wales news website with a pic rather than one of the links on the right hand side.
also it was on the news for one evening, not 2/3/4 evenings

dodge


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## LilMissHissyFit (Nov 1, 2009)

It was on the main page... on the BBC website for at least one day. It was also the main story on the BBC wales website for the same amount of time

Ridiclous this "Oh if he was a muslim" bollocks.... hes been arrested, hes been charged
 Just as he would have been if he was christian, buddist etc


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## magneze (Nov 1, 2009)

<insert Richard Blackwood joke here>


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## Grandma Death (Nov 1, 2009)

Ive lived pretty much 34 yrs of my life in blackwood and four of them in the street where this arrest took place. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest this. There is active BNP support up the valleys and real hostility to ethnic minorities despite there's hardly any black or asian people living in blackwood.


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## Clint Iguana (Nov 2, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Ive lived pretty much 34 yrs of my life in blackwood and four of them in the street where this arrest took place. It doesn't surprise me in the slightest this. There is active BNP support up the valleys and real hostility to ethnic minorities despite there's hardly any black or asian people living in blackwood.



I have lived in Blackwood ALL my life and while i have no doubt there are people who support the BNP about, you make it sound like racism is the norm, which is not correct. There is a huge amount of support for anit fascist activity in blackwood as well.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 2, 2009)

Clint Iguana said:


> I have lived in Blackwood ALL my life and while i have no doubt there are people who support the BNP about, you make it sound like racism is the norm, which is not correct. There is a huge amount of support for anit fascist activity in blackwood as well.



Its my experiences of blackwood as someone who has lived there most of my adult life and still experience it everytime I go back.

Whereabouts in blackwood you from?


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## phildwyer (Nov 3, 2009)

Let's be realistic here.  The socialist tradition runs too deep for the BNP ever to gain a significant foothold in Blackwood.  Or anywhere in South Wales for that matter.  Can you imagine them getting elected to local councils, as they do in England?  No chance.


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## Brockway (Nov 3, 2009)

It's ironic that he comes from somewhere called Blackwood.


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## Clint Iguana (Nov 3, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Its my experiences of blackwood as someone who has lived there most of my adult life and still experience it everytime I go back.
> 
> Whereabouts in blackwood you from?



Cefn Fforest.

i suppose it depends on the circles you move in.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 3, 2009)

Clint Iguana said:


> Cefn Fforest.
> 
> i suppose it depends on the circles you move in.



Yeah you got that right...I was brought up in the Penllwyn


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## lewislewis (Nov 4, 2009)

There's a huge difference between having a typical insular attitude towards ethnic minorities, and active political support for the BNP or any other section of the far-right. They've never even stood a candidate in Caerffili council borough or RCT as far as I know. If they did they would probably get physically deterred. 

I think the Valleys parts of Wales do have significant problems with racism and bigotry but it doesn't translate to political attitudes. They're most likely to be solid Labour voters to be honest. 

Its interesting to look at the European Elections, in the Valleys seats Labour and Plaid are still the big boys with the Tories and Lib Dems barely registering north of Pontypridd. Of the right-wing parties, it was UKIP that did reasonably 'ok' rather than the BNP.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 4, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> There's a huge difference between having a typical insular attitude towards ethnic minorities, and active political support for the BNP or any other section of the far-right. They've never even stood a candidate in Caerffili council borough or RCT as far as I know. If they did they would probably get physically deterred.
> 
> I think the Valleys parts of Wales do have significant problems with racism and bigotry but it doesn't translate to political attitudes. They're most likely to be solid Labour voters to be honest.
> 
> Its interesting to look at the European Elections, in the Valleys seats Labour and Plaid are still the big boys with the Tories and Lib Dems barely registering north of Pontypridd. Of the right-wing parties, it was UKIP that did reasonably 'ok' rather than the BNP.



I would agree in part with that analysis but your theory can't be tested because the BNP have never stood a canditate in the valleys-but I'm sure it'll come. I couldn't say either way they'd be physically deterred. A once very good friend of mine who has for a long time suffered mental health problems has now joined the BNP after a failed suicide attempt at the peak of his depression. Prior to that he was in the SWP. He proudly walks around my hometown with his BNP badges on and shouting the odds in the local pub. He's also an activist and leaflets for them. Thus far he's had no problems at all.
The last time I was in my local I left in disgust after having a massive argument with the locals and friends over immigration. This in a place where there is no immigration. The people that were arguing with me were pretty clear in their support for the BNP.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 4, 2009)

This been done yet?







?


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## lewislewis (Nov 4, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> I would agree in part with that analysis but your theory can't be tested because the BNP have never stood a canditate in the valleys-but I'm sure it'll come. I couldn't say either way they'd be physically deterred. A once very good friend of mine who has for a long time suffered mental health problems has now joined the BNP after a failed suicide attempt at the peak of his depression. Prior to that he was in the SWP. He proudly walks around my hometown with his BNP badges on and shouting the odds in the local pub. He's also an activist and leaflets for them. Thus far he's had no problems at all.
> The last time I was in my local I left in disgust after having a massive argument with the locals and friends over immigration. This in a place where there is no immigration. The people that were arguing with me were pretty clear in their support for the BNP.



Going around the pubs in any Welsh town might give you the impression that we're on the verge of a BNP takeover. 

Take Llanelli for example, there was even an article in the Guardian saying that the BNP was on the rise there with photos and apparent 'Welsh discontent against Polish people'. The BNP did street stalls in Llanelli and leafleted it. But their vote actually fell there in the subsequent Euro elections.

It's pretty obvious that in the most populated parts of Wales the overall attitude towards immigration is not more progressive than in comparable parts of England. Politically though, the left  (i'm including the left-of-centre in this) is considerably stronger electorally, better organised, and more genuinely part of local communities. People will always grumble in the pubs.


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## phildwyer (Nov 4, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> Going around the pubs in any Welsh town might give you the impression that we're on the verge of a BNP takeover.



That certainly isn't my experience.  

Maybe you might think we're on the verge of an alcoholic collapse or amphetamine psychosis, but hardly a BNP takeover.  I've been drinking all over South Wales for many years and can count the number of politically active racists I've encountered on no fingers.  Unless you count anti-Saes.


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## phildwyer (Nov 4, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> I would agree in part with that analysis but your theory can't be tested because the BNP have never stood a canditate in the valleys-but I'm sure it'll come.



Bollocks.  Any BNP candidate in the Valleys would be torn to pieces by an angry mob.  There's a reason why they don't stand there.


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## phildwyer (Nov 4, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> The last time I was in my local I left in disgust after having a massive argument with the locals and friends over immigration. This in a place where there is no immigration. The people that were arguing with me were pretty clear in their support for the BNP.



I'm sorry, but that sounds like a self-aggrandizing fantasy to me.  

You go into your local pub, sit down with your friends and the regulars, discover they support the BNP and walk out in disgust?

I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 4, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Bollocks.  Any BNP candidate in the Valleys would be torn to pieces by an angry mob.  There's a reason why they don't stand there.



Post 1238


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## Grandma Death (Nov 4, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> I'm sorry, but that sounds like a self-aggrandizing fantasy to me.
> 
> You go into your local pub, sit down with your friends and the regulars, discover they support the BNP and walk out in disgust?
> 
> I'm afraid I'm going to have to call bullshit on this one.




Post 1238


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## Grandma Death (Nov 4, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> Politically though, the left  (i'm including the left-of-centre in this) is considerably stronger electorally, better organised, and more genuinely part of local communities. People will always grumble in the pubs.




This idea that the valleys are traditionally on the left is in part right. In terms of electoral indications that would be right and of course there is a history of trade unionism in the valleys that cant be ignored. The ideas of racism though are in my experience rife and I say that as someone brought up there for decades. At the moment though working class people are in some areas turning to the BNP and if you look at working class areas up north thats pretty obvious. I think the valleys are ripe for the BNP at this moment in time-and its naive to suggest that the working class won't turn to them in the same way they have done so in other parts of the UK.


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> I think the valleys are ripe for the BNP at this moment in time



Horseshit.

If the Valleys were "ripe for the BNP," the BNP would already be there in force.  They'd be standing for elections, and even getting elected.  They're not.  I've never even met a single BNP supporter in South Wales.  Which makes me strongly suspicious of the following anecdote:



Grandma Death said:


> The last time I was in my local I left in disgust after having a massive argument with the locals and friends over immigration. This in a place where there is no immigration. The people that were arguing with me were pretty clear in their support for the BNP.



Sooo... you go into your local pub, in the town where you've lived all your life, and sit down with your "locals and friends."  To your horror, they all turn out to be BNP supporters.  You'd never known this about your friends before, but like a heroic moral crusader, you get up and self-righteously storm out in indignation.

Sorry, but I don't believe you.


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> This idea that the valleys are traditionally on the left is in part right.



Gotta love that "in part."

Paris is in part the capital of France.

One plus one in part equals two.

Grandma Death is in part an idiot.


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## fogbat (Nov 5, 2009)

I understand that there is no truth to the rumour that he was made suggestible by fumes from his keyboard.


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

fogbat said:


> I understand that there is no truth to the rumour that he was made suggestible by fumes from his keyboard.



It is true in part.


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## fogbat (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> It is true in part.



Which part?


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## lewislewis (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> That certainly isn't my experience.
> 
> Maybe you might think we're on the verge of an alcoholic collapse or amphetamine psychosis, but hardly a BNP takeover.  I've been drinking all over South Wales for many years and can count the number of politically active racists I've encountered on no fingers.  Unless you count anti-Saes.



I said "might".


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## lewislewis (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> This idea that the valleys are traditionally on the left is in part right. In terms of electoral indications that would be right and of course there is a history of trade unionism in the valleys that cant be ignored. The ideas of racism though are in my experience rife and I say that as someone brought up there for decades. At the moment though working class people are in some areas turning to the BNP and if you look at working class areas up north thats pretty obvious. I think the valleys are ripe for the BNP at this moment in time-and its naive to suggest that the working class won't turn to them in the same way they have done so in other parts of the UK.



'They' (Valleys peeps) had a chance to turn to them a few months ago when the BNP was on every single ballot paper in Wales. They didn't. Disaffected people are more likely to not vote at all, or to vote for a different party.

I do agree with Phil but not as solidly, I think the BNP could increase their support in the Valleys but they probably wouldn't be able to win a seat there ever. People who are so racist that it infringes on their political choices will not bother voting, especially in areas with high levels of deprivation. 

The idea that the Valleys are some kind of racist backwater should also be challenged, they've had migration for years, be it Italians, other Europeans, or Asians. The various communities across the Valleys have spawned some very progressive political tendencies and currents, not just in the industrial period but more recently.

I think we (sane people of all political persuasions) are doing a good job of keeping out the BNP in Wales, their main momentum does not come from political factors here it comes from Welsh people reading The Sun and British newspapers every day which have no bearing on their daily lives and the reality of life here. If you only read the British newspapers you'd have no idea that Wales even had an Assembly or its own ministers and you'd be under the impression that foreigners are streaming in. The British media's dominance in Wales- unseen in Scotland- creates a right-wing false consciousness amongst alot of working class people.


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> I do agree with Phil but not as solidly, I think the BNP could increase their support in the Valleys but they probably wouldn't be able to win a seat there ever.



Aye.  

It's also worth noting that Cardiff has _always_ been a multi-racial city, and that despite one or two minor hiccups, the longevity of its immigrant communities has largely spared it the kind of overt racial tension to be found in the cities of England.  Until they were dispersed by the Bay development, the people of Butetown offered a model of successful multiculturalism unmatched throughout the UK.


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## Brockway (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Aye.
> 
> It's also worth noting that Cardiff has _always_ been a multi-racial city, and that despite one or two minor hiccups, the longevity of its immigrant communities has largely spared it the kind of overt racial tension to be found in the cities of England.  Until they were dispersed by the Bay development, the people of Butetown offered a model of successful multiculturalism unmatched throughout the UK.




Well, sort of. Cardiff has always (as a city) had a multi-racial dimension but for a long time that was largely confined to just Butetown. Butetown, itself, has always been a model of multiculturalism. But that can't be said of the _whole_ of Cardiff. Above and below the bridge was a strong dividing line.

Also worth noting that the dispersal of the Butetown community was partial, not total.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Horseshit.
> 
> If the Valleys were "ripe for the BNP," the BNP would already be there in force.  They'd be standing for elections, and even getting elected.  They're not.  I've never even met a single BNP supporter in South Wales.  Which makes me strongly suspicious of the following anecdote:
> 
> ...



Post 1238


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Gotta love that "in part."
> 
> Paris is in part the capital of France.
> 
> ...



Post 1238


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Post 1238



Really Grandma, this isn't very constructive even by your standards.  Can you not have a sensible discussion for a change?


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

> People who are so racist that it infringes on their political choices will not bother voting, especially in areas with high levels of deprivation.



That doesn't explain the growth of the BNP in northern towns that are considered to be deprived areas. 



> The idea that the Valleys are some kind of racist backwater should also be challenged, they've had migration for years, be it Italians, other Europeans, or Asians.



I would agree that the valleys are not some sort of racist backwater-but racist attitudes are prevelant-although I would accept thats my own experiences. I do however reject that migration has occurred on a _large_ scale into the valleys. Cardiff and newport are a totally different matter but the valleys have not seen large scale migration and established migrant communities in my lifetime and experience.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Really Grandma, this isn't very constructive even by your standards.  Can you not have a sensible discussion for a change?



Ive got two options-block you but then I miss out on the debate. So I've chosen to ignore you this way until you give up trolling.

Post 1238


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Ive got two options-block you but then I miss out on the debate. So I've chosen to ignore you this way until you give up trolling.
> 
> Post 1238



How am I trolling?  I've argued against you in an intelligent and relevant manner.  It's just boring and pathetic to repeat yourself all the time like this.  I wouldn't even mind a lively exchange of abuse, but this is so tedious and unproductive.  Can't you move on, for the sake of others here if not for mine?


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> How am I trolling?  I've argued against you in an intelligent and relevant manner.  It's just boring and pathetic to repeat yourself all the time like this.  I wouldn't even mind a lively exchange of abuse, but this is so tedious and unproductive.  Can't you move on, for the sake of others here if not for mine?



Phil you're whole existance is about winding people up. Stop quoting me and simply put you wont get the same tedious and unproductive answer-can't be any fairer than that.

Post 1238


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Phil you're whole existance is about winding people up. Stop quoting me and simply put you wont get the same tedious and unproductive answer-can't be any fairer than that.
> 
> Post 1238



No.  I'll respond to you if I feel like it.  

You're perfectly free to ignore me.  But just to repeat yourself over and over like this will destroy this thread and bore everyone to tears, as well as making yourself seem petty and ridiculous.  Seriously, just give it up man.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> No.  I'll respond to you if I feel like it.



Great stuff

Post 1238


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Post 1238



Just don't respond.  Ignore me.  You don't have to _put _me on ignore, if you're worried about missing the debate.  Just ignore me.  If you keep on doing this, all you'll achieve is wrecking every single thread you appear on.  Won't that be jolly fun?

Give it up Grandma--now.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Ignore me..



Great idea.


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## phildwyer (Nov 5, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> Great idea.



Finally.  

Now make absolutely sure that you stick with this new-found resolve.  I'll be watching.


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## Clint Iguana (Nov 5, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> No.  I'll respond to you if I feel like it.
> 
> just to repeat yourself over and over like this will destroy this thread and bore everyone to tears, as well as making yourself seem petty and ridiculous.  Seriously, just give it up man.



THIS (have not sussed how to do upward pointing arrows  )

I have spotted Nothing troll like in your responses, far more intersting than personal abuse.


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## ddraig (Nov 6, 2009)

Clint Iguana said:


> THIS (have not sussed how to do upward pointing arrows  )
> 
> I have spotted Nothing troll like in your responses, far more intersting than personal abuse.



shif + 6 ^^^^


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## lewislewis (Nov 6, 2009)

Grandma Death said:


> That doesn't explain the growth of the BNP in northern towns that are considered to be deprived areas.



Maybe in the strongly Welsh-identifying Valleys a 'British' party is not going to have the same purchase as in northern England. Also there is an alternative to Labour in the Valleys in Plaid Cymru.

Shame the rest of this thread has been tarnished somewhat. It was a worthy discussion.


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## phildwyer (Nov 6, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> Also there is an alternative to Labour in the Valleys in Plaid Cymru.



Unfortunately, Plaid can attract the kind of nationalists who would gravitate towards the BNP in England.  Their history is tarnished by racism too.  It's a real shame, because I know several committed socialists who are PC members, but for me (and I suspect many others) they've sailed too close to the right-wing wind.


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## Clint Iguana (Nov 6, 2009)

ddraig said:


> shif + 6 ^^^^



^^^^^ simples! 

cheers


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## niclas (Nov 6, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Unfortunately, Plaid can attract the kind of nationalists who would gravitate towards the BNP in England.  Their history is tarnished by racism too.  It's a real shame, because I know several committed socialists who are PC members, but for me (and I suspect many others) they've sailed too close to the right-wing wind.



Can't let you get away with that kind of smear, sorry. One of Plaid's founders - Saunders lewis - was a dodgy cultural nationalist but equally another one was an anarcho-syndicalist. Ambrose Bebb in the 1930s also had a very suspect affinity to the French rightwing of the time. Are you saying they were racist?

That was back when Plaid was a pressure group and still developing any coherent ideology.

 For the past 20+ years it's been an avowed left-wing party where the "right wing" would be on the left of the Labour Party. It's far from perfect (shall I prepare a list of let Adamski butt in? ) but it's a party that's been consistently progressive and is home to a growing number of socialists in Wales, myself included.

So tell us what "right-wing wind" is Plaid currently sailing too close to.


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## Grandma Death (Nov 6, 2009)

I have to say I've never considered PC to sail anywhere near racism but thats my own experiences of what I know of them.


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## phildwyer (Nov 6, 2009)

niclas said:


> Can't let you get away with that kind of smear, sorry. One of Plaid's founders - Saunders lewis - was a dodgy cultural nationalist but equally another one was an anarcho-syndicalist. Ambrose Bebb in the 1930s also had a very suspect affinity to the French rightwing of the time. Are you saying they were racist?
> 
> That was back when Plaid was a pressure group and still developing any coherent ideology.
> 
> ...



As I said, I'm aware that there are many socialists in PC.  Though exactly how deep their socialism runs is not at all clear to me--the example of the former soi-disant Marxist Dafydd Ellis-Thomas looms large.  Every day when he wakes up he thanks the Welsh he's "Lord." 

Basically I think that nationalism in general is inherently susceptible to co-option by the right, and I do believe that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP in England often gravitate to PC in Wales.  "Cultural nationalist" is a very kind term for Saunders Lewis--some would call him a fascist (and he was English anyway).  And I also find their concentration on the language to be elitist, seeing as it is the language of a small minority.  Plaid is still the party of the _crachach_ as far as I'm concerned.

OK, fire away...


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## lewislewis (Nov 7, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> As I said, I'm aware that there are many socialists in PC.  Though exactly how deep their socialism runs is not at all clear to me--the example of the former soi-disant Marxist Dafydd Ellis-Thomas looms large.  Every day when he wakes up he thanks the Welsh he's "Lord."
> 
> Basically I think that nationalism in general is inherently susceptible to co-option by the right, and I do believe that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP in England often gravitate to PC in Wales.  "Cultural nationalist" is a very kind term for Saunders Lewis--some would call him a fascist (and he was English anyway).  And I also find their concentration on the language to be elitist, seeing as it is the language of a small minority.  Plaid is still the party of the _crachach_ as far as I'm concerned.
> 
> OK, fire away...



I'm at a loss as to why anti-immigration voters ('people who are attracted to the BNP') would gravitate to Plaid Cymru, when Plaid's immigration policy is practically open borders. Unless of course, you mean anti-English immigration, but I don't think they would be attracted to the BNP, which after all as a 'British' party does not recognise Wales as separate from England.
I think you are just making a schoolboy error because of the word 'nationalist'.

I'm an activist for Plaid and not aware that they concentrate on the language at all. They are a bilingual party, treating both languages equally. It is an honourable position.

There's an issue here because we can't let ignorant people make these kind of claims about racism, when Plaid is part of the anti-racist movement in Wales. 

Nationalism depends entirely on the character of the nation or constituency that it represents. I don't think nationalism in South Africa, Cuba, Mozambique or India was/is of the right. I don't think Mandela, Ghandi or Malcolm X were right-wingers at all.

More comparably to Wales, nationalism in Catalunya, Scotland and the Basque country is generally progressive and linked with some degree of social democratic aims or even explict socialism. In Catalunya for example pretty much the entirety of the left supports independence and Catalan nationalism. That's important because like Wales it has a linguistic dimension. If you're a Catalan socialist and you advocate keeping them in with Spain, you would never get as far as if you advocate independence or fuller self-rule. In the Basque country its a little bit different as the centre-right establishment is nationalist, but the radical far-left in Euskadi and its Communist Party is also extremely nationalist.

I see myself as a left nationalist, the two causes for me are inseperable- we are not going to get the kind of society I want to see as part of the UK. Devolution means to be different, and I can think of many good things about being different to the way politics is run in Westminster. 

There's no other party like Plaid that is so popular and established but also contains a prominent number of socialists and leftists. Even the right of the party, is social democratic.


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## phildwyer (Nov 7, 2009)

You make some sound points.  To be honest, I've been coming closer to your position over the last few years, and may well end up voting for Plaid soon.

However: (a) I'm still suspicious of nationalism _per se._  I'm an internationalist.  (b) I don't think you can discard the dodgy history of Plaid so easily.  Lewis may not have been a racist, but he was certainly an anti-semite.  (c)  I disagree that they treat both languages equally.  I find that they favor Welsh, and Welsh-speakers.  I suspect that they want _everyone_ to speak Welsh, and that given the chance that would be their policy.

Having said all that, I think they're the best choice for Wales at the moment.  The best of a very, very, very bad lot.


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## niclas (Nov 8, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> You make some sound points.  To be honest, I've been coming closer to your position over the last few years, and may well end up voting for Plaid soon.
> 
> However: (a) I'm still suspicious of nationalism _per se._  I'm an internationalist.  (b) I don't think you can discard the dodgy history of Plaid so easily.  Lewis may not have been a racist, but he was certainly an anti-semite.  (c)  I disagree that they treat both languages equally.  I find that they favor Welsh, and Welsh-speakers.  I suspect that they want _everyone_ to speak Welsh, and that given the chance that would be their policy.
> 
> Having said all that, I think they're the best choice for Wales at the moment.  The best of a very, very, very bad lot.



Phil - the Plaid you talk of is not the party I recognise but there's obviously some deeply felt views here.

I doubt this thread is the place to tease them out, but I'd like to try to answer your a, b and c.

Firstly, the civic nationalism of Plaid is entirely compatible with the internationalism of progressive campaigners - this is not an exclusivist identity but a liberation issue.

b. Saunders Lewis wasn't an anti-semite as far as I know - he wrote a very powerful play outlining the persecution of the Jewish people called Esther. You've got to substantiate these claims if they're going to be taken seriously

c. Plaid is criticised by some Welsh-language activists for not doing enough for the language, by some English speakers for doing too much. That tells me something. The principle of equality of opportunity is an important one, e.g. the right to have your kids educated in Welsh, to have services in Welsh if you choose. If Plaid doesn't fight for these things, no other political party will. Plaid's linkage to the language struggle (and it has been a struggle) has harmed it politically, but it has also helped define it as a party not afraid of direct action, law-breaking and defying the establishment. I don't want everyone to have to speak Welsh - but I do want everyone to have the opportunity should they choose it. Very different things.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 8, 2009)

niclas said:


> Phil - the Plaid you talk of is not the party I recognise but there's obviously some deeply felt views here.
> 
> I doubt this thread is the place to tease them out, but I'd like to try to answer your a, b and c.
> 
> ...



As you say, this might not be the right thread, but since the topic has come up, let me respond briefly.  

We've been through all this before, and each time I find myself less and less convinced of my previous positions.  But I'm still not convinced of yours either.  Then again, you know more about Plaid than I do, so please treat these musings as inquiries rather than assertions.

Yes, Plaid's nationalism is liberationist rather than exclusivist.  It is still nationalism, however.  In one of your previous posts (I think it was you), you mentioned Plaid's policy on non-British immigration to Wales, indicating that they're in favor of it.  If that's true, then I'm convinced.  Is it?

With regard to Lewis's anti-semitism, there is this notorious quote:

"In 1936, in the midst of the turmoil of Tân yn Llŷn, Lewis praised Adolf Hitler when he said "At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders_Lewis

However, in the context of the 1930s, that was hardly the most egregious form of anti-semitism.  Lewis did support Franco and _Action Francaise,_ but I take it that few members of Plaid today are great admirers of him anyway, except as a symbol/figurehead.  Am I right?

And I admit that my evidence for Plaid's preferential treatment of Welsh-speakers is anecdotal--but then it would be, wouldn't it, as they're hardly going to shout it from the rooftops.  Are you telling me that English-speakers will be treated equally in education, government, media, the professions etc in a Plaid-ruled Wales?  

Finally, what is Plaid's current position on independence?  That is, obviously they favor it, but when and how?

I haven't voted in a British election for over a decade, but I might just make an exception for PC in future...


----------



## llion (Nov 8, 2009)

Niclas - Out of interest, which one of Plaid Cymru's founders was an anarcho-syndiacalist? Did he write anything about anarcho-syndicalism, as I'd be very interested to read it if so? I know there was a pamphlet about Anarchism written in Welsh in the 1940s as part of the 'Cyfres Pamffledi Heddychwyr Cymru' (Welsh Pacifists Leaftlets Series) which I've never been able to track down a copy of one (it's called Anarchistiaeth by J.Gwyn Griffiths).

One point I'd make about Saunders Lewis and Plaid Cymru is that Lewis distanced himself from Plaid from the forties onwards precisely because he didn't think they were putting enough emphasis on the Welsh language. His 'Tynged yr Iaith' (Fate of the Language) speech, which partly led to the establishment of Cymdeithas yr Iaith (Welsh Language Society) and the campaign of civil disobedience to improve the language's status can be interpreted as a clear dig at Plaid and its leadership for concentrating more on electoral campaigns/success than on the language. Needless to say this pissed a lot of people in Plaid of no end at the time. In fact, Lewis seemed to delight in winding Plaid up as he got older e.g. he wrote sympathetic pieces supporting the Free Wales Army, when Gwynfor Evans etc were unequivocal in their condemnation. The relevant point here is that Saunders Lewis's politicial ideas/development diverged clearly from those of Plaid Cymru from a very early stage. In fact, prominent members of Plaid such as Phil Williams who didn't speak Welsh are far more representative of Plaid's development over the past 40 years than Saunders Lewis.


----------



## niclas (Nov 9, 2009)

Not sure my few years in Plaid qualifies me to know more about it than you but here goes... 
I'm not aware of any Plaid policy on "non-British immigration" as such but here's the most recent manifesto quote (from the European election of 2009):



> We recognise the invaluable contribution that migration has made to Europe, socially, culturally and economically over many years, and believe that this positive contribution will continue in future. Migration is a natural process in human life and it is in all our interests for the EU to deal with this as effectively and efficiently as possible. Equally, we recognise the potential shared benefits of greater co-operation in asylum and immigration at EU level, and the important role that Europe could play in assisting the integration of new migrants including in the languages of the stateless nations. We believe that we share a duty to uphold and defend people's right to seek asylum and we will work to ensure Europe's proud tradition of offering refuge to the persecuted continues.






			
				phildwyer said:
			
		

> With regard to Lewis's anti-semitism, there is this notorious quote:
> 
> "In 1936, in the midst of the turmoil of Tân yn Llŷn, Lewis praised Adolf Hitler when he said "At once he fulfilled his promise — a promise which was greatly mocked by the London papers months before that — to completely abolish the financial strength of the Jews in the economic life of Germany."
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saunders_Lewis
> ...



I followed the link and this is attributed to a speech by anti-Welsh Labour MP Llew Smith, so there's no real proof or even context. But I wouldn't defend him. The musings of Saunders Lewis 70 years ago are irrelevant to Wales today.  




			
				phildwyer said:
			
		

> And I admit that my evidence for Plaid's preferential treatment of Welsh-speakers is anecdotal--but then it would be, wouldn't it, as they're hardly going to shout it from the rooftops.  Are you telling me that English-speakers will be treated equally in education, government, media, the professions etc in a Plaid-ruled Wales?



Ah, the hardy perennial of Plaid having a secret conspiracy to force everybody to learn Welsh (usually known as "forcing the language down our throats"). There's no doubt that Plaid has traditionally been seen as the party of the Welsh language and enjoys higher support amongst Welsh speakers but I think that's changed over the past few decades. Plaid rules Gwynedd, where the internal language of the council is officially Welsh (the only one in Wales) and where non-Welsh speaking staff are given time to learn the language. That's hardly a secret. Caerffili council is also run by Plaid and led by a non-Welsh speaking council leader in Lindsay Whittle - so it's horses for courses. A bilingual Wales - where both languages enjoy equal status - would be an aspiration but that's going to take generations even with the right government and policies in place.
 The biggest problem for me, as a parent of two kids in Welsh schools where 90% of the kids come from English-speaking homes, is that the opportunities for kids to speak the language outside the school environment are very limited. Consequently my 13 yr old thinks everyone in the world should speak English (the language of films, games, music and labels). You can take a horse to water... 




			
				phildwyer said:
			
		

> Finally, what is Plaid's current position on independence?  That is, obviously they favor it, but when and how?



Yes, for independence but who the hell knows what the next year will bring. It will only happen if people want it. Getting thinking progressives to vote Plaid next time is a small step...


----------



## niclas (Nov 9, 2009)

Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
 He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 9, 2009)

niclas said:


> Plaid rules Gwynedd, where the internal language of the council is officially Welsh (the only one in Wales) and where non-Welsh speaking staff are given time to learn the language.



See, this is why I won't vote for them.  I don't want to learn Welsh.  If anyone told me I had to learn Welsh in order to work in Wales, I'd see it as a violation of my civil liberties.  

And I, like the 80% of Welsh people who don't speak Welsh, am every bit as patriotic as Plaid.  They can fuck off with their "given time to learn Welsh."


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2009)

niclas said:


> Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
> He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.



He was also a very successful boxer!


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> See, this is why I won't vote for them.  I don't want to learn Welsh.  If anyone told me I had to learn Welsh in order to work in Wales, I'd see it as a violation of my civil liberties.
> 
> And I, like the 80% of Welsh people who don't speak Welsh, am every bit as patriotic as Plaid.  They can fuck off with their "given time to learn Welsh."



Plaid has never said that! Several of their Assembly Members don't speak Welsh including one of their cabinet Ministers Jocelyn Davies, the number would be even higher if they got more AMs in traditional "Labour" areas and Valleys seats. Really, both languages are equal.

Leanne Wood one of Plaid's most high-profile politicians does not speak Welsh and comes from a Valleys socialist background, but fully supports the language and campaigns for it. 

Plaid is currently jointly running Wales and they haven't forced anyone to learn Welsh. If you live in Gwynedd and don't speak the majority language then of course there's an issue there, how can you take part in society?

With you I'm pretty sure we're talking about south Wales/Cardiff, where there is no such issue. You could be a Plaid Assembly Member, leader of a council, MP or whatever and not have to speak Welsh if you don't want to. The Welsh language belongs to everyone even those who do not speak it.

With regards to immigration, we should judge Plaid on what they do. Now, they were part of the campaign to defend Ama Sumani, alongside the anarchists, and stop her being deported, and also for the Azerbaijani poet whose campaign received alot of support from this forum. Adam Price also fought against the deportation of a family from his Carmarthen East constituency, successfully. Considering it is a mainstream party focused on winning elections, Plaid's record on internationalism puts the other 'big' parties to shame. I would go even further to argue that support for ethnic minorities forms a crucial part of Plaid's modern philosophy.

I think this discussion is missing an important point though, that Plaid Cymru is to some extent involved now in the Welsh establishment and is a mainstream political party, signed up to all the imperfections and compromises that come with running local authorities and being in coalitions, similar to the Greens and the SNP. But at the same time, Plaid is the only mainstream player in Wales that is 100% democratically controlled by its members and not funded by or in the pocket of big business or outside interests.


----------



## butchersapron (Nov 9, 2009)

niclas said:


> Llion - D J Davies was one of the six founding members. A miner, he had been a trade union activist in Wales, the USA and later got very involved in the cooperative movement in Denmark.
> He argued that the mines should be taken over by the workers and not be nationalised as Labour advocated - a fundamental difference between libertarian and state socialisms.


That doesn't mean he was an anarchist or a syndicalist though, never mind an anarcho-syndicalist. The idea of socialism necessarily meaning total state control only won its dominant postion after WW2. If the wiki article is in any way accurate his politics were clearly state-interventionist anyway - a proponent of classic old school keynsianism.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 9, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> If you live in Gwynedd and don't speak the majority language then of course there's an issue there, how can you take part in society?



But I could say the same about Cardiff: "If you want to participate in civil society there, you must speak the majority language, which is English."

But I don't say that.  I'm happy for civil society to be bilingual.  Unfortunately, Plaid don't extend the same courtesy in Gwynedd.

My suspicion is that if they ever gain real, consolidated power in Wales as a whole, they will extend this policy nationwide.  Anyone who wants to participate in civil society or the professions will have to speak Welsh, or will be "given time to learn it."  Monoglot anglophones will be second-class citizens.


----------



## lewislewis (Nov 9, 2009)

How do you think Plaid could possibly gain or consolidate 'real' power in Wales if they wanted to extend the language over everyone? 

Don't you think your view is paranoid? Plaid would be alienating sections of its own party and support. They're geared towards winning the support of English-only speakers accoridng to their latest party broadcast (costing a huge amount of money by the look of things), why they would deliberately undermine their own work is beyond me.


----------



## phildwyer (Nov 9, 2009)

lewislewis said:


> How do you think Plaid could possibly gain or consolidate 'real' power in Wales if they wanted to extend the language over everyone?



I _don't_ think they can.  

And the reason is precisely because a lot of people share my suspicions about their intentions regarding the language.  If they can convince anglophones like myself that we'd be treated equally in a Plaid-ruled Cymru, many (more) of us will vote for them.  But given their history, and also given their current policy in places like Gwynedd, they've got a long way to go.


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## ddraig (Nov 9, 2009)

llion
http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=170694


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## llion (Nov 9, 2009)

ddraig - thanks for the link above. Very interesting reading.


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## niclas (Nov 10, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> But I could say the same about Cardiff: "If you want to participate in civil society there, you must speak the majority language, which is English."
> 
> But I don't say that.  I'm happy for civil society to be bilingual.  Unfortunately, Plaid don't extend the same courtesy in Gwynedd.
> 
> My suspicion is that if they ever gain real, consolidated power in Wales as a whole, they will extend this policy nationwide.  Anyone who wants to participate in civil society or the professions will have to speak Welsh, or will be "given time to learn it."  Monoglot anglophones will be second-class citizens.



The difference is that every Welsh speaker HAS to speak English when dealing with vast swathes of the public sector now - we have no choice in the matter. If you are an English speaker in Gwynedd you get treated just the same way as a Welsh speaker - that's equality.

You choose not to learn Welsh, which is up to you, and that excludes you from a small minority of jobs - e.g. teaching Welsh, reading the news, working in bilingual call centres and other jobs where the language is deemed essential. 

So there's no need to go off on one and construct a huge conspiracy based around one council's decision to use Welsh as its primary means of *internal* communication.


----------



## Riklet (Nov 17, 2009)

Best thing about Blackwood was seeing a gig there where don ross (i think?) was crackin jokes in the wee theatre old miner's institute place and was all "ahhh... we thought we were playing a Chinese takeaway at first, 'd' missing off the sign yaknow!"

 Well, it was funny at the time.  Very offtopic, probably not as funny as being packed off to jug for making can bombs man.

Dual language is pretty cool btw, don't think in most of S. Wales you can really say there's "discrimination" against English speakers or those lacking in Welsh skillz


----------



## ddraig (Dec 16, 2009)

ddraig said:


> yes but i reckon if it was a muslim more would be made of it and for example it would be the main story on the bbc Wales news website with a pic rather than one of the links on the right hand side.
> also it was on the news for one evening, not 2/3/4 evenings
> 
> dodge



case in point
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8415451.stm

the man is being charged, yes it has been on the news but in a very brief way.
if this was a non white extremist there would have been more fuss and more news. it is not even the main story on the bbc Wales news page.




			
				bbc said:
			
		

> A 58-year-old man from south Wales is to appear in court charged with soliciting murder and offences under the Terrorism Act, say police.
> 
> He was arrested in Hirwaun, Rhondda Cynon Taf, last week and taken to west Yorkshire for questioning.
> 
> He also faces a charge of using threatening abusive or insulting words likely to stir up racial hatred.



so another screw loose sicko racist


----------



## Clint Iguana (Dec 16, 2009)

ddraig said:


> case in point
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8415451.stm
> 
> the man is being charged, yes it has been on the news but in a very brief way.
> ...



I work with a boy from Hirwaun, apparently he (the guy arrested, not my mate) is well known as being a BNP member.... I hasten to add, I have no proof of this


----------



## butchersapron (Dec 16, 2009)

Doesn't appear on either of the leaked lists.


----------



## LilMissHissyFit (Dec 16, 2009)

Interesting.....


----------



## Col_Buendia (Dec 16, 2009)

Why the fuck was he taken to West Yorkshire? Can South Wales Police not think of any interesting questions to ask him themselves??


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## ddraig (Dec 16, 2009)

praps they're in the middle of painting paddington green a different colour?


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## Clint Iguana (Dec 16, 2009)

Col_Buendia said:


> Why the fuck was he taken to West Yorkshire? Can South Wales Police not think of any interesting questions to ask him themselves??



have you ever been to Hirwaun?


----------



## Col_Buendia (Dec 16, 2009)

Here, is this something to do with the Zaskar thread? If so, I'm off out of here...


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## Udo Erasmus (Dec 17, 2009)

There's a piece on indymedia that mentions the hirwaun guy:
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/2009/12/443645.html


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## butchersapron (Dec 17, 2009)

His name has been reported in the media since yesterday.


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## Col_Buendia (Dec 17, 2009)

Well, is it known if he's been nicked for the fuss they stirred up in Swansea, or else why has this bloke been shipped off to West Yorkshire? Curious like.


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## Karac (Dec 17, 2009)

phildwyer said:


> Basically I think that nationalism in general is inherently susceptible to co-option by the right, and I do believe that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP in England often gravitate to PC in Wales....


Thats a load of total bullshit-BNPers tend to be total rightwing morons and english nationalists thered be no way theyd gravitate to Plaid Cymru


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## Dic Penderyn (Dec 26, 2009)

Karac said:


> Thats a load of total bullshit-BNPers tend to be total rightwing morons and english nationalists thered be no way theyd gravitate to Plaid Cymru



I have to agree. Looking at the voting patterns I'd say that the kind of people who are attracted to the BNP (& UKIP) in England often gravitate to the BNP (& UKIP) in Wales as well!



llion said:


> Niclas - Out of interest, which one of Plaid Cymru's founders was an anarcho-syndiacalist? Did he write anything about anarcho-syndicalism, as I'd be very interested to read it if so? I know there was a pamphlet about Anarchism written in Welsh in the 1940s as part of the 'Cyfres Pamffledi Heddychwyr Cymru' (Welsh Pacifists Leaftlets Series) which I've never been able to track down a copy of one (it's called Anarchistiaeth by J.Gwyn Griffiths).



I have a copy of that, pm me and and I'll get you a copy. YOu might find some of the articles here of interest too: http://anarchol.wordpress.com


----------



## Bakunin (Jan 14, 2010)

He's admitted the explosives charges in court now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8459125.stm


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## lewislewis (Jan 14, 2010)

Interesting.

I wonder if we can get a statistic for the number of people arrested in Wales under offences related to the Terrorism Act, and then an ethnic breakdown?

And whether we can get a similar stat on convictions (if there have ever even been any?) and an ethnic breakdown on those.

It might even be that white British people would be the biggest alleged "terrorists" in Wales.


----------



## niclas (Jan 14, 2010)

BBC also quote the judge as saying he was a member of a far-right organisation. I take it that's the BNP.

Any hack going to ask Griffin about his members' extra-curricular activities?

PS Phil Dwyer's comments about BNP voters gravitating towards Plaid are just a joke.


----------



## 1927 (Jan 15, 2010)

Karac said:


> Thats a load of total bullshit-BNPers tend to be total rightwing morons and english nationalists thered be no way theyd gravitate to Plaid Cymru



Portraying all BNPers as right wing morons would suggest you are missing the point. There are many dissaffected voters, who are not right wing morons, who are considering voting BNP. From my experiences I know of a few people who, if no BNP candidate was available, are voting Plaid because they see that its a party that does atleast stick up for Wales.

If you seriously think that all BNPers are right wing morons your position is not disimlar to the stance of the 3 main parties who are unwilling to tackle the issues that make the BNP popular for that very reason.


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## lewislewis (Jan 15, 2010)

1927 said:


> Portraying all BNPers as right wing morons would suggest you are missing the point. There are many dissaffected voters, who are not right wing morons, who are considering voting BNP. From my experiences I know of a few people who, if no BNP candidate was available, are voting Plaid because they see that its a party that does atleast stick up for Wales.
> 
> If you seriously think that all BNPers are right wing morons your position is not disimlar to the stance of the 3 main parties who are unwilling to tackle the issues that make the BNP popular for that very reason.



I don't know any such people (BNPers who would vote Plaid) but i'm willing to accept they exist.

That said, Plaid is known for being "soft" and "politically correct" on immigration (different to in-migration), so I suppose it would depend what "kind" of BNP voter they are. If they are the kind that is xenophobic in a British sense and wants the Union Jack plastered all over the place i'm not sure they'd be disposed to vote for what they see as separatism. But if they're the kind who dislike the political establishment and put that as a priority ahead of their racism, then they might cast a vote for Plaid. I think there are too many variables for the numbers of these people to be significant. 

Welsh nationalism also crowds out British nationalism, the two can't really co-exist in the mind of the same voter, not in terms of Plaid politics anyway. That's why the BNP in Wales identified Plaid as their main obstacle to getting anywhere. You'll also find that compared to the other mainstream parties, Plaid activists are in my experience more likely to commit to anti-fascism, particularly anti-BNP activity, because they oppose the whole idea of Britishness. And as much as I am reluctant to admit it that opposition to Britishness is the main reason we won't hold power in Wales in the near future except as part of a coalition with other forces. Long-term though i'm more confident.


----------



## Grandma Death (Feb 25, 2010)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8532758.stm

3 yrs


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 28, 2010)

as i understand it the highest vote for the bnp in the euroelections was in this constituency. local anti-fascists/unite against fascism members have called a meeting -  7.00 pm  Friday 5th March   @ Memo, Newbridge


----------



## ymu (Feb 28, 2010)

Grandma Death said:


> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8532758.stm
> 
> 3 yrs



Three years for making bombs, yet a Muslim kid got eight years for mere possession of materials which are widely available on the internet and some teenage boasting to students and teachers that he was going to become a terrorist.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2010)

Udo Erasmus said:


> as i understand it the highest vote for the bnp in the euroelections was in this constituency. local anti-fascists/unite against fascism members have called a meeting -  7.00 pm  Friday 5th March   @ Memo, Newbridge



Do you mean the highest vote in Wales?


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 28, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Do you mean the highest vote in Wales?



yes


----------



## Clint Iguana (Feb 28, 2010)

Udo Erasmus said:


> as i understand it the highest vote for the bnp in the euroelections was in this constituency. local anti-fascists/unite against fascism members have called a meeting -  7.00 pm  Friday 5th March   @ Memo, Newbridge



Are you seriously suggesting the BNP are a bigger problem in Gwent than anywhere else in Wales?

Where do you live? do you have any local experience of the area?


----------



## lewislewis (Feb 28, 2010)

Clint Iguana said:


> Are you seriously suggesting the BNP are a bigger problem in Gwent than anywhere else in Wales?
> 
> Where do you live? do you have any local experience of the area?



I haven't checked the figures, he might well be right but I think the BNP did better in a different constituency. I've got the data somewhere i'll dig it up.


----------



## butchersapron (Feb 28, 2010)

Swansea east was the best result.


----------



## Udo Erasmus (Feb 28, 2010)

i was told this info by a councillor in the area, but it could well be wrong, politicians are not always right you know


----------



## Clint Iguana (Feb 28, 2010)

butchersapron said:


> Swansea east was the best result.



Yes, i am sure swansea is the biggest hostpot for the fash. Wrexham and caerphilly are also problem areas.

I am aware that there has been BNP leafleting in newbridge before, but i dont think they have a lot of support in the area. May have been at it again, hence the meeting in newbridge memo (which, as it happens, is miles from where this guy in Blackwood lives).

i know a lot of people that way that are dead against the fash.


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 1, 2010)

There was alot of BNP leafleting in Llanelli as well but they did badly there.


----------



## niclas (Mar 3, 2010)

Clint Iguana said:


> Yes, i am sure swansea is the biggest hostpot for the fash. Wrexham and caerphilly are also problem areas.



BNP in Wrecsam seems to be imploding - no sign of Ennys Hughes at a recent BNP branch meeting in a local club. Rumour has it that she's had enough of the back-biting.

Also BNP Wales organiser Bill Murray has quit the party, possibly because of the admission of non-white members.


----------



## Clint Iguana (Mar 4, 2010)

Udo Erasmus said:


> as i understand it the highest vote for the bnp in the euroelections was in this constituency. local anti-fascists/unite against fascism members have called a meeting -  7.00 pm  Friday 5th March   @ Memo, Newbridge



Meeting off due to the current upheaval in the Islwyn Labour Party


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 5, 2010)

LOL. The Islwyn Labour Party is fucked. London HQ imposing shortlists on them and the locals getting pissed off. Four councillors have left and will be supporting Cllr David Rees as an Independent candidate at the next GE.

Rees describes himself as a 'democratic socialist', but is a member of the anti-devolution/anti-Assembly group 'True Wales' which is led by such bright sparks as the openly racist right-wing Tory MP for Monmouth David Davies. Happy to share platforms with UKIP as well. I hope he isn't Udo's local contact!

Still, if Rees does well enough it will let Plaid's Steffan Lewis in, so i'm all for this Labour split!


----------



## Grandma Death (Mar 5, 2010)

Clint Iguana said:


> Yes, i am sure swansea is the biggest hostpot for the fash. Wrexham and caerphilly are also problem areas.
> 
> I am aware that there has been BNP leafleting in newbridge before, but i dont think they have a lot of support in the area. May have been at it again, hence the meeting in newbridge memo (which, as it happens, is miles from where this guy in Blackwood lives).
> 
> i know a lot of people that way that are dead against the fash.



I know the person who has been responsible for some of the leaflets distributed in penllwyn some time ago. He's very active for the BNP so it wouldn't suprise me if he's pulling together numbers for for leaflets in the surrounding area.


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## Udo Erasmus (Mar 5, 2010)

Clint Iguana said:


> Meeting off due to the current upheaval in the Islwyn Labour Party



that is a bit crap & frankly should be irrelevant, if you are based in the area and there are other people with their heads stuck on, maybe they should get stuck into getting some local anti-fascism off the ground


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 9, 2010)

I know a fair few people in Islwyn but they are all doing election work for Plaid at the moment. The BNP may not even stand there, and if they do at least Plaid is offering some kind of alternative?


----------



## butchersapron (Mar 9, 2010)

The Welsh seats where the BNP have announced PPC's as of last weekend are (as far as i can see):

Aberavon
Newport East
Clwyd South
Wrexham


----------



## LC1980 (Mar 9, 2010)

Swansea is the only part of Wales where the jac-yr-undeb is popular.


----------



## lewislewis (Mar 9, 2010)

LC1980 said:


> Swansea is the only part of Wales where the jac-yr-undeb is popular.



Isn't it only one section of Swansea East though (where there is a silver jubilee mural)? 
Swansea as a whole is mainly Welsh identifying rather than British, the BNP flop there and a friend of mine also maintains most of the Swansea City support is not right-wing or Unionist, it's a small but vocal cadre.


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