# The Holocaust in entertainment



## Santino (Jul 4, 2012)

I am reading The Atrocity Archives, by Charles Stross - basically, a book about an IT support worker who battles Lovecraftian interdimensional beings.

In it, it is revealed that the Nazi holocaust - SPOILER ALERT - was part of a mass campaign of human sacrifice in order to open an interdimensional gateway for aforementioned Lovecraftian beings.

I found this ... weird. It undermines the complicated and not-at-all-fantastical reasons behind the real events. It felt a bit cheap. In a low key way.

Discuss. Is the use of the holocaust in entertainments such as this effective? Is it distasteful? Illustrate your answer with examples. (500)


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## dylanredefined (Jul 4, 2012)

In the laundry books it makes sense as magic is real and just needs a lot of maths and blood to do terrible things.I don't think it cheapens the holocaust.The nazis are still evil and doing an evil thing for evil reasons.
     Nazis did have an intrest in the occult and old religions though a lot less than a lot of
fiction would have you beleive.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

well. on a wider point nazis are used to 'spice' narratives sometimes- it is a little cheap the way stross does it but its down to the fact that his pacy, punchy gabby prose is hardly invested with the sort of gravitas you expect when dealing with such a serious subject as the holocaust. 

examples of 'how to make this cooler and more edgy? add SS uniforms' include the werewolves from true blood and the zombies from Dead Snow. You can almost hear the discussion in the scriptwriters room. Possibly they were smoking weed cos the just-add-nazis school of excitement raising is very stoner.


not really adressed your point at all have I. , its getting posted anyway


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

also having nazis gives you characters that can be completely written off as pure evil and thusly the writer can do what he wants to them. We've all grown up watching nazis being used in this manner so we are used to it and don't even blink when herr flick gets stabbed in the cock- they've become 2-d baddies for lazy writers now.


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## gamma globulins (Jul 4, 2012)

Hellboy venns somewhat with the OP I guess, though there it's always tangential to the war, more of a side line, and Mignola doesn't actually touch on the holocaust, which I think is probably a more sensitive approach.

At the same time those who actively believe in magic etc probably think the holocaust had all kinds of spiritual outcomes*; but does saying that the holocaust was the work of the devil rather than that of those who actually put in the effort also cheapen it? I suspect it does to some, others probably struggle to process the idea of humans being capable of evil on such a scale. I wonder which side the survivors tend to come down on.

* I have heard some who think that Haiti's issues today come from 'evil voodoo' (etc) practiced during the initial rebellion, that their independence was a deal with the devil etc.


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## Reno (Jul 4, 2012)

Santino said:


> I am reading The Atrocity Archives, by Charles Stross - basically, a book about an IT support worker who battles Lovecraftian interdimensional beings.
> 
> In it, it is revealed that the Nazi holocaust - SPOILER ALERT - was part of a mass campaign of human sacrifice in order to open an interdimensional gateway for aforementioned Lovecraftian beings.
> 
> ...


 
I probably would find that a bit on the distasteful side, because a supernatural context almost rationalises the evil of the Holocaust as having a "higher purpose". The real reasons were in part so horrendous because they were so mundane and so 'human' and they still repeat themselves over and over (Serbia, Rwanda, Syria, etc.). If not rooting the Holocaust in this recurring human flaw of demonising what is foreign or different, then it removes the lesson to be learned from it. A sacrifice to summon Lovecraftian god would make it a singular event driven by more than petty stupidity, ignorance and plain everyday evil. I don't like the idea of evil as being something "other" or supernatural. It lets humanity off the hook to easily and means people are not on guard in checking realistic evil impulses that are in all of us. The next step is end up demonising others as witches and shit.

Then again, it's only fiction and it's not offensive enough for me to lose sleep over it. I nearly always find the use of the Holocaust in fiction slightly dodgy, sometimes more (the film of Sophie's Choice) and sometimes less so (The X-Men).


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

anyway, Stross nicked the idea from 'Illuminatus!'. in that it was said that hitler was using the holocaust to 'ascend' to becoming immortal, made of an energy matrice- and for this reason the illuminati also seek to 'immanetize the eschaton' and become as gods

another example- the short story collection 'The Coming of Vertumnus'

theres a piece about a bible written in the blood of rabbis from the camp era- an occultist project by the prussian nazi running a camp. The conciet is that in a place where God is completely absent there is room for other powers to come in (harpy, sphinx, clown)

again, the goal was immortality.

interesting actually come to think on it how some writers have seen the vast death and horror and considered the idea that surely such an atrocity could only have been enacted out of an urge for eternal life.


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## Santino (Jul 4, 2012)

I award points to Dotty for effort and demonstration of background reading.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

hang on, he also nicked the lovecraftian angle from illuminatus. That I hadn't noticed this shameless idea theiving before now annoys me more than his using the holocaust. Its all right their on the fucking pages! I'm glad I just stole the epub versions now.

and shea did it better- yog sohhoth was already here, trapped in the pentagon (designed to house it) and being fed the decaying souls of all those RTA's that happen everyday in america.


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## Santino (Jul 4, 2012)

I prefer the Stross short story that starts with the Soviets parading two Shoggoths past the Kremlin as their strategic deterrents.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

'a colder war'


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

I feel to send him a stern email now demanding that he include shea in the 'thanks' section at the start of his jennifer morgue stuff. Although if we all did that who knows where it would end. How far back do you go 'i'd like to also thank pliny the elder for the idea about giant blue ants'


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## Santino (Jul 4, 2012)

Actually, I've abandoned the Atrocity Archives, partly because of the Nazi cheapness, and partly because of the by-numbers writing and plotting.

_eta_ Also: aha ha ha ha, the narrator really likes strong black coffee. How QUIRKY and INTERESTING and REVEALING OF CHARACTER.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

in his books geeks are all ultra cool as well. mary-sue. Theres a bit of that in neals Cryptonomicon but you let it slide cos the ideas ARE cool


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## krtek a houby (Jul 4, 2012)

James Herbert "The Spear" deals with some leftover nazis from ww2 searching for relics, bit like in Indiana Jones. Also, I remember Maximan fighting a supernazi in ww2 (he was possessed by a Lovecraft old god)


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## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I feel to send him a stern email now demanding that he include shea in the 'thanks' section at the start of his jennifer morgue stuff. Although if we all did that who knows where it would end. How far back do you go 'i'd like to also thank pliny the elder for the idea about giant blue ants'


 
Do that. I will enjoy the spectacle of Professor Stross eating you for breakfast, in the manner of an Elder God feasting on the souls of the damned.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 4, 2012)

better not, I am intimidated now cos you've used his professional title- and also I'll forgive him anything for the ultra-paranoia of Glasshouse


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## Idris2002 (Jul 4, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> better not, I am intimidated now cos you've used his professional title- and also I'll forgive him anything for the ultra-paranoia of Glasshouse


 
He's not actually a Professor, you know.


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## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2012)

you are trying to goad me into having my arse handed to me on a silver platter. I see through your ploy idris, I see right through it.


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## samk (Jul 5, 2012)

Would an alt-history novel where hitler was a harmless artist  be offensive? How far does the taboo stretch?


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## DotCommunist (Jul 5, 2012)

you'd have to explain how the gas that fucked him up in the eyes was not present and thusly he was pretty good rather than average.


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## samk (Jul 5, 2012)

It could have inspired a new style like monet


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

Santino said:


> I am reading The Atrocity Archives, by Charles Stross - basically, a book about an IT support worker who battles Lovecraftian interdimensional beings.
> 
> In it, it is revealed that the Nazi holocaust - SPOILER ALERT - was part of a mass campaign of human sacrifice in order to open an interdimensional gateway for aforementioned Lovecraftian beings.
> 
> ...


 
Hard to know how effective it is without reading the book.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

I think movies like Sophie's Choice rely heavily on the Holocaust in their theme/plot development.

Playing For Time also comes to mind. Schindler's List. There's another one I saw a while ago: the Nazis use a group of jews in a concentration camp to print counterfeit money. The name escapes me at the moment.

Some of these movies are more effective than others.


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## The39thStep (Jul 5, 2012)




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## albionism (Jul 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> I think movies like Sophie's Choice rely heavily on the Holocaust in their theme/plot development.
> 
> Playing For Time also comes to mind. Schindler's List. There's another one I saw a while ago: the Nazis use a group of jews in a concentration camp to print counterfeit money. The name escapes me at the moment.
> 
> Some of these movies are more effective than others.


Aye, see "The Pawnbroker"


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## killer b (Jul 5, 2012)

krtek a houby said:


> James Herbert "The Spear" deals with some leftover nazis from ww2 searching for relics, bit like in Indiana Jones. Also, I remember Maximan fighting a supernazi in ww2 (he was possessed by a Lovecraft old god)


the supernazi was called masterman. no mention of the holocaust mind, although they do nuke berlin.


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## Reno (Jul 5, 2012)




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## Reno (Jul 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There's another one I saw a while ago: the Nazis use a group of jews in a concentration camp to print counterfeit money. The name escapes me at the moment.


 
Funnily enough it's called The Conterfeiters. 

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813547/

That one was actually pretty good and by being quite self contained and concentrating on one particular aspect of one man's Holocaust experience it sidestepped a lot of the problems I have with many Holocaust dramas.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

Reno said:


> Funnily enough it's called The Conterfeiters.
> 
> http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0813547/
> 
> That one was actually pretty good and by being quite self contained and concentrating on one particular aspect of one man's Holocaust experience it sidestepped a lot of the problems I have with many Holocaust dramas.


 
What problems do you have with many holocaust dramas?


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## Reno (Jul 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> What problems do you have with many holocaust dramas?


 
I don't think a fictional film can come even close to do the real thing justice. I also feel very uncomfortable when films exploit the Holocaust for melodrama like Sophie's Choice does or when a director is emotionally manipulative about it, like Spielberg was with Schindler's List with the scenes of the girl in the red coat. Having gown up in Germany in the 70s when the country only just started to come to grips with it and when many people who were there, were still alive this particular subject matter cuts very close for me. On the whole I always prefer seeing a good documentary on the Holocaust rather than a drama, which I feel can quickly end up exploitative.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

Reno said:


> I don't think a fictional film can come even close to do the real thing justice. I also feel very uncomfortable when films exploit the Holocaust for melodrama like Sophie's Choice does or when a director is emotionally manipulative about it, like Spielberg was with Schindler's List with the scenes of the girl in the red coat. Having gown up in Germany in the 70s when the country only just started to come to grips with it and when many people who were there, were still alive this particular subject matter cuts very close for me. On the whole I always prefer seeing a good documentary on the Holocaust rather than a drama, which I feel can quickly end up exploitative.


 
There is an element of unreality to all film, given what it is.

If the girl in the red coat creates emotion in the viewer, is it an error on the director's part? Given the emotions that accompanied the actual events, and given a director's desire to try to impart at least some of that emotion, why should they not use such devices as the girl in the red coat?


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

As for 'melodrama'; is it possible to exaggerate the emotions associated with the Holocaust?


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## Reno (Jul 5, 2012)

Johnny Canuck3 said:


> There is an element of unreality to all film, given what it is.
> 
> If the girl in the red coat creates emotion in the viewer, is it an error on the director's part? Given the emotions that accompanied the actual events, and given a director's desire to try to impart at least some of that emotion, why should they not use such devices as the girl in the red coat?


 
We've already seen loads of people die horrible deaths by that point, but because it's a cute little girl we are suddenly alerted that we should feel something special. Its just crass and clumsy and it's gilding the lilly. I don't need Spielberg to to show me a scale of casualties where at the top there are cute little moppets.

BTW. you are welcome to feel differently about these things, I'm just telling you how I feel about Holocaust dramas. On another thread not too long ago I have already tried to convey what it was like growing up in the shadow of that horror in Germany at that time and why I may just feel a little differently about this particular issue than someone would who has a little more distance. I don't have the time and inclination to repeat myself about it right now.


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 5, 2012)

Reno said:


> We've already seen loads of people die horrible deaths by that point, but because it's a cute little girl we are suddenly alerted that we should feel something special. Its just crass and clumsy and it's gilding the lilly. I don't need Spielberg to to show me a scale of casualties where at the top there are cute little moppets.
> 
> BTW. you are welcome to feel differently about these things, I'm just telling you how I feel about Holocaust dramas. On another thread not too long ago I have already tried to convey what it was like growing up in the shadow of that horror in Germany at that time and why I may just feel a little differently about this particular issue than someone would who has a little more distance. I don't have the time and inclination to repeat myself about it right now.


 
No need to always get so defensive. Yes, we can have different points of view. One of the small pleasures of life, imo at least, is sharing those points of view.

I didn't grow up in Germany, but I did grow up in a place where a lot of displaced European people ended up living. My first barber had a concentration camp number tattooed on his forearm. A Romanian guy at my first job had stories of the German Army coming to his village, machinegunning all the Jews, and dumping them in a lime pit. Most recently, I met a very eminent doctor who, as it turns out is jewish, and whose family escaped, with him, in about 1938. He has done so much humanitarian work in his life, that wouldn't have happened, had they not made it out.

I think the little girl helps to personalize the emotion. We've become too familiar with megadeath. We acknowledge it for a bad thing, but how much emotion does it engender anymore?

Many people have children, and can relate on a personal level to a story device like Spielberg's little girl. In my opinion, of course.


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## Reno (Jul 5, 2012)

I'm not talking about meeting people who were in camps and learning a history lesson from that. I've been there many times too. I'm talking about growing up in a country that was only one generation from the Holocaust and realising that this particular evil runs very deep and is still around you and that people you have grown up to love may have been implicated.

One of the best films about the Holocaust I've seen only deals with it indirectly. It's called The Nasty Girl and was based on the real case of a a school girl who wrote an essay about her town in the Third Reich and who got a big shit ball rolling.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Das_schreckliche_Mädchen

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anna_Rosmus


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## Johnny Canuck3 (Jul 6, 2012)

Reno said:


> I'm not talking about meeting people who were in camps and learning a history lesson from that. I've been there many times too. I'm talking about growing up in a country that was only one generation from the Holocaust and realising that this particular evil runs very deep and is still around you and that people you have grown up to love may have been implicated.
> 
> One of the best films about the Holocaust I've seen only deals with it indirectly. It's called The Nasty Girl and was based on the real case of a a school girl who wrote an essay about her town in the Third Reich and who got a big shit ball rolling.
> 
> ...


 
I thought The Night Porter was good, also.


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## scifisam (Jul 6, 2012)

Grimm, which is a rather good fantasy-in-the-real-world TV series, very briefly had Hitler (on a video) as one of the worst kinds of 'creatures' in that show, a creature who had supernatural powers of persuasion, rather than as human.

It was only very brief so it doesn't detract from the show, really, but it's an example of the way I don't like the Holocaust being used - not just because it's using Hitler as a lazy cypher for Eeevil but because it kind of excuses the humans who were actually involved in it. Oh, they weren't actually otherwise ordinary humans doing totally horrific things because of complex human dynamics and politics, they were just being persuaded by a magic evil being. 

Sounds like the same kind of thing you're talking about. I've noticed it elsewhere - there might even be a TV Tropes page for it - but can't think of any other examples right now.

Also, I guess there aren't many survivors of the holocaust around now (though there are still some), but there were a lot for the previous few decades. They must have repeatedly just been watching some action movie or crime drama or something and seen their own experience being used out of the blue in really rather a casual way.


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