# Rioting in Belfast after City council vote to take union jack down.



## Deareg (Dec 3, 2012)

Loyalists are rioting after the council voted to restrict the flying of the butchers apron to 15 set days a year, they tried to storm the council chamber and are now reported to be attacking the Nationalist Short Strand area again, though that is not mentioned in the link.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20587538


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## LiamO (Dec 3, 2012)

... and quite right too. the Union flag should be flown from _every_ household in the prahvince at all times... two flags from catholic houses... by law... and any fenians who don't like it should have Poppies nailed to their chests... If they don't like the Union Jack they should fuck off back to Ireland



...oh... wait...


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## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

well funny, frothy dickheads, wish they'd get rid of that shitty flag from buildings in Wales too


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## Pickman's model (Dec 3, 2012)

And london


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## ddraig (Dec 3, 2012)

oh i'd love to see that demo!!


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## Fedayn (Dec 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Loyalists are rioting after the council voted to restrict the flying of the butchers apron to 15 set days a year, they tried to storm the council chamber and are now reported to be attacking the Nationalist Short Strand area again, though that is not mentioned in the link.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20587538


 
Attacked St Matthews chapel too.


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## Deareg (Dec 3, 2012)

It really sticks in their craw that they don't control Belfast city council anymore.


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## Deareg (Dec 3, 2012)

Fedayn said:


> Attacked St Matthews chapel too.


They always start with the chapel, if you are not familiar with the Strand, it stands right on the edge with the front right on the Newtonards rd.


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## Fedayn (Dec 3, 2012)

Deareg said:


> They always start with the chapel, if you are not familiar with the Strand, it stands right on the edge with the front right on the Newtonards rd.


 
I'm not familiar with it but it's a fairly 'famous' church and it's one of the few things I know about the area ie where it is.


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## Deareg (Dec 3, 2012)




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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2012)

Dunno whether I would classify their reaction as a proper riot ( we irish are fussy )
Compared to their huffing n puffing of gathering over 2000 to their antique protest ( Irish News used FB as their figures) ... 300 odd turnout imo signifies how things have changed somewhat... ffs... there were more people at the front at the xmas market?
 Loyalism/Unionism in their heyday would have dragged many more knuckle draggers... who can forget Paisley at the front of the Hall... declaring 'Ulster Says No... No Surrender!' with what over at least 50,000 in support...
Pity he wasn't rolling in his grave, even the Paisley dynasty didnt release any supportive statements or the DUP???

I'm Hearing there will be pockets of dickheads kicking off near the Markets and around the bottom of Antrim Road... Lets be straight just an average Friday night?

Riot... nah ameteurish and cheap easy shot..... lol.. No 'mainstream' loyalist orgs joined the bandwagon... merely using 'another' front....

btw: Trust me the Loyalist Community will be reeling come the new year when a heap of Paedo exposes happen... watch this space!

Feck em!!!!
TAL


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## DexterTCN (Dec 4, 2012)

Wait til they put up the _other_ flag.


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## LiamO (Dec 4, 2012)

Damned uppity fenians... they are even trying to stop us flying our flag in Magherafelt now! Sign this petition to stop them... and justify fire-bombing some catholic children (which is a traditional loyalist way of protesting) as a brucey bonus...

http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...moves-to-remove-british-flag-from-town-center

Magherafelt Borough Council will tonight debate a motion to 'fly the union flag' every day from Council buildings... who says the Ulster covenant is dead.


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## Deareg (Dec 4, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Dunno whether I would classify their reaction as a proper riot ( we irish are fussy )
> Compared to their huffing n puffing of gathering over 2000 to their antique protest ( Irish News used FB as their figures) ... 300 odd turnout imo signifies how things have changed somewhat... ffs... there were more people at the front at the xmas market?
> Loyalism/Unionism in their heyday would have dragged many more knuckle draggers... who can forget Paisley at the front of the Hall... declaring 'Ulster Says No... No Surrender!' with what over at least 50,000 in support...
> Pity he wasn't rolling in his grave, even the Paisley dynasty didnt release any supportive statements or the DUP???
> ...


I was watching it earlier on the news before it kicked off, the news said a thousand had gathered outside the city hall, but it looked no more than a couple of hundred, if that.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Damned uppity fenians... they are even trying to stop us flying our flag in Magherafelt now! Sign this petition to stop them... and justify fire-bombing some catholic children (which is a traditional loyalist way of protesting) as a brucey bonus...
> 
> http://www.change.org/en-GB/petitio...moves-to-remove-british-flag-from-town-center
> 
> Magherafelt Borough Council will tonight debate a motion to 'fly the union flag' every day from Council buildings... who says the Ulster covenant is dead.


The main issue there is to who actually owns the roundabout ( only in Ireland hey)
Its going too! I hope...


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I was watching it earlier on the news before it kicked off, the news said a thousand had gathered outside the city hall, but it looked no more than a couple of hundred, if that.


Was chatting to a few folk after I left observing along with a number of other bemused folk... and no way did they exceed 500 max.... Its a tight space as u know....

I reckon they may have included the continental xmas market too!


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## Deareg (Dec 4, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Was chatting to a few folk after I left observing along with a number of other bemused folk... and no way did they exceed 500 max.... Its a tight space as u know....
> 
> I reckon they may have included the continental xmas market too!


And the coppers.


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## LiamO (Dec 4, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> The main issue there is to who actually owns the roundabout ( only in Ireland hey)


 
it's... NOT... IN... IRELAND .... IT's  IN  THE  UK...FFS


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## LiamO (Dec 4, 2012)

Deareg said:


> And the coppers.


 
Wot? The on-duty ones in uniform or the off duty ones 'protesting'?


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## Deareg (Dec 4, 2012)

They should never have put a Fenian Christmas tree in Belfast city centre.


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## Fedayn (Dec 4, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Wait til they put up the _other_ flag.


 
Aye, be something to see a starry plough flying from that flagpole.


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## cantsin (Dec 4, 2012)

Pickman's model said:


> And london


 
and Cornwall


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## Louis MacNeice (Dec 4, 2012)




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## NA12 (Dec 4, 2012)

LiamO said:


> ... and quite right too. the Union flag should be flown from _every_ household in the prahvince at all times... two flags from catholic houses... by law... and any fenians who don't like it should have Poppies nailed to their chests... If they don't like the Union Jack they should fuck off back to Ireland
> 
> ...oh... wait...


 
Excuse me, i think it was our country first you fucking Hun!


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## frogwoman (Dec 4, 2012)

*opens bag of popcorn*


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 4, 2012)

NA12 said:


> Excuse me, i think it was our country first you fucking Hun!


 
Fuck off you're on the wrong boards here you Fenian twat. Go and have a chicken supper in the cell block Bobby - this is a Loyal board.


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## Random (Dec 4, 2012)

No surrender to the NRA! Ban Charlton Heston movies!


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## goldenecitrone (Dec 4, 2012)

This board was brought to you by, The future's bright, the future's orange.


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## JTG (Dec 4, 2012)

frogwoman said:


> *opens bag of popcorn*


*obligatory deckchair reference*


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## rekil (Dec 4, 2012)

NA12 said:


> Excuse me, i think it was our country first you fucking Hun!


You can talk of your fiddles, your harp or your lute but there's nothing could sound like the old orange flute.


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## rekil (Dec 4, 2012)

Random said:


> No surrender to the NRA! Ban Charlton Heston movies!


He can have my old orange flute when he takes it from my cold dead hands.


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## disco_dave_2000 (Dec 4, 2012)

<dons comedy bowler hat>


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 4, 2012)




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## CyberRose (Dec 4, 2012)

Replace all flags with this to make the world a better place...


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## Louis MacNeice (Dec 4, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Replace all flags with this to make the world a better place...


 
Beat you to it on previous page...'we won't be druv!'






Cheers from down south - Louis MacNeice


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## CyberRose (Dec 4, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Beat you to it on previous page...'we won't be druv!'
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yea but no one knows what that comedy flag's supposed to be! Plus can you really see the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or the Israelis or the Palestinians going for it? I can't. Yorkshire, on the other hand, everyone would love to be from Yorkshire and it would unite all nations on Earth, and probably the Klingons too.


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## Random (Dec 4, 2012)

I think it's Edward the Confessor's flag. Wessex?


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## JTG (Dec 4, 2012)

Sussex


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 4, 2012)

The murderer Billy Hutch (leader of the PUPs) now feels like a second class citizen in his 'own country'
ah diddums!

btw: well seeing it was a loyalist protest due to lack of police numbers... jaysus if it had of been a 'fenian' protest, the riot squads would have been well out in force?


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## audiotech (Dec 4, 2012)

Sleigh Bells Ring are you Listening
The Union Flag it is Missing
Loyalists Smash up the Town
The Butchers Apron is Down
Walking in a Fenian Wonderland


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## rekil (Dec 4, 2012)

"Argh ye ferssnn yebastard. No surrendaarrr!"

www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=n-eSmCZA9xg#t=105s

A meme is born.


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## Deareg (Dec 4, 2012)

Was a funny clip on the local news, a crowd of them stormed into the city hall unimpeded waving Union jacks and and roaring like a load of Vikings with sore arses, came to the unlocked and unguarded door that led up to the council chambers where the vote was taking place and just stopped dead in their own tracks looking like they hadn't a fucking clue what to do next!


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## Gingerman (Dec 4, 2012)

goldenecitrone said:


> This board was brought to you by, The future's bright, the future's orange.


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## LiamO (Dec 4, 2012)

NA12 said:


> Excuse me, i think it was our country first you fucking Hun!


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## CyberRose (Dec 4, 2012)

I went to the Guinness museum in Dublin and had a pint at the end of it, didn't pour it myself though (as is an option), made a point of making the Irishman pour it for me


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## Louis MacNeice (Dec 5, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Yea but no one knows what that comedy flag's supposed to be! Plus can you really see the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or the Israelis or the Palestinians going for it? I can't. Yorkshire, on the other hand, everyone would love to be from Yorkshire and it would unite all nations on Earth, and probably the Klingons too.


 
Yeah big brave Yorkshire hiding all the way back up there; pretending to be hard when they're just mean. Everybody loves a coward right. Sussex on the front line, generously doing what needs to be done for over a thousand years; 'we wont be druv'! Protestant and Catholic standing foursquare, shoulder to shoulder behind the martlets. Mind you we might have to do something about Lewes bonfire.

Louis Macneice


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## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 5, 2012)

If it wasn't for Sussex we would all be speaking French with German accents by now.


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## seeformiles (Dec 5, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Yea but no one knows what that comedy flag's supposed to be! Plus can you really see the Protestants and Catholics in Northern Ireland, or the Israelis or the Palestinians going for it? I can't. Yorkshire, on the other hand, everyone would love to be from Yorkshire and it would unite all nations on Earth, and probably the Klingons too.


 
If you laid on a vintage steam rally - that would seal the deal for me! Imagine all nations forgetting their differences as they cheer on a Fowler Straw-burning plough engine as it cruises majesically through Roundhay Park....


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## seeformiles (Dec 5, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Loyalism/Unionism in their heyday would have dragged many more knuckle draggers... who can forget Paisley at the front of the Hall... declaring 'Ulster Says No... No Surrender!' with what over at least 50,000 in support...
> Pity he wasn't rolling in his grave, even the Paisley dynasty didnt release any supportive statements or the DUP???


 
At that time Newtownards had a banner made for the council offices saying "Newtownards Says No!" and 2 years later had another that said "Newtownards Still Says No!".

I spent my school days in that loyalist hothole - you could stick an orange sash on a monkey and it would get elected in Strangford...


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## JimW (Dec 5, 2012)

Louis MacNeice said:


> Yeah big brave Yorkshire hiding all the way back up there; pretending to be hard when they're just mean. Everybody loves a coward right. Sussex on the front line, generously doing what needs to be done for over a thousand years; 'we wont be druv'! Protestant and Catholic standing foursquare, shoulder to shoulder behind the martlets. Mind you we might have to do something about Lewes bonfire.
> 
> Louis Macneice


Capitulated to the Danes soon enough - you're hard pressed to find a street name in York that's actually English! Big jessies.


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## CyberRose (Dec 5, 2012)

JimW said:


> Capitulated to the Danes soon enough - you're hard pressed to find a street name in York that's actually English! Big jessies.


We ARE the Danes!


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 5, 2012)

Seriously...
Can anyone locally see the influences of 'a protestant Ulster' dying?
10 years ago this would have been a major step...
today 'meh'


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 5, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> If it wasn't for Sussex we would all be speaking French with German accents by now.


 





They kept the fuzzy wuzzies out too


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## Deareg (Dec 5, 2012)

Silly bastards are still at it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20619259


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## SpookyFrank (Dec 5, 2012)

Do they put some kind of fucktard potion in the water over there or what?


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 5, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Silly bastards are still at it.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20619259


 
Prob the wrong attitude but i can't help  at their puny attempts against the alliance.. lets hope Ford bears this in mind whilst dealing with the POWs


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## Deareg (Dec 5, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Do they put some kind of fucktard potion in the water over there or what?


I wish it was that simple.


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## Deareg (Dec 5, 2012)

It's getting worse.


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## CyberRose (Dec 5, 2012)

Balls just about to post that!!


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## Deareg (Dec 5, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Balls just about to post that!!


I laughed my bollox off when I saw it.


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## Casually Red (Dec 6, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I was watching it earlier on the news before it kicked off, the news said a thousand had gathered outside the city hall, but it looked no more than a couple of hundred, if that.


 
the fact was though that even if it was a couple of 100 they were able to very easily smash their way into the city hall thanks to the new RUC deciding not to "provoke them" by trying to stop them in any meaningful manner .
The worst beating by far the peelers handed out was to an Associated press photographer who clearly identified himself prior to having his head opened up like a fish supper by the peelers batons. Appears they didnt take kindly to this being covered .


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## Casually Red (Dec 6, 2012)

An Alliance councillor has been advised to flee her home by the peelers after they received details of a number of threats against her following the vote


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## Casually Red (Dec 6, 2012)

another alliance party office, this time in Carrickfergus has been burned to the ground by loyalists after about 1500 of them took to the streets there . PSNI fired a number of plastic bullets . And the home of 2 alliance councillors in Bangor has also been attacked . Loyalists now taking to the streets of Lurgan as well .

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20619259


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## LiamO (Dec 6, 2012)

seeformiles said:


> loyalist* hot*hole ...


 
Can you not spell '_shit_'?


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## seeformiles (Dec 6, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Can you not spell '_shit_'?


 
To be fair - the landscape's pretty nice (Scrabo, Strangford Lough, etc.) so that's maybe a step too far. Also, I was born there, so can't hate it entirely.


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## LiamO (Dec 6, 2012)

I can't remember the last time loyalist were this hot under the collar about such a blatant attack on their 'britishness' without the support of unionist politicians and the tacit support of the unionist middle-class. You can see the results of this from the way the knuckledraggers have turned violently on the middle class liberals of the Alliance Party.

10 years ago they could have brought many thousands out... 25 years ago they could/would (in fact _did_) bring the whole place to a standstill.

Now, whilst Orange Lil and her mates are ; it seems the middle class are ; the politicians are ; and the vast majority of working-class unionists are .


Me? I'm just


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## Deareg (Dec 7, 2012)




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## Nylock (Dec 7, 2012)

Fair play, there are some fucked-up loons in norn'iron


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## Deareg (Dec 7, 2012)

Silly bastards are still at it, many schools are closing early today because loyalists are planning on blocking main roads again, if nationalists have sit down protests in their own estates their are batoned and dragged off the street and arrested.


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## Nylock (Dec 7, 2012)

Ulster Loyalists: Proving you don't have to be a spoilt child to act like one...


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## Teaboy (Dec 7, 2012)

Christ, if they're like this over a flag what are they going to be like when Ireland is reunified?


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## Deareg (Dec 7, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Christ, if they're like this over a flag what are they going to be like when Ireland is reunified?


Most of them will probably fuckoff back to Scotland.


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## Teaboy (Dec 7, 2012)

Rangers are going to need a bigger stadium.


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## marty21 (Dec 7, 2012)

My unionist colleage it outraged - accusing the Alliance of being wishy-washy liberals  I suggested flying the Irish flag as well as the Union Jack as a compromise - he nearly exploded in rage


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2012)

Not likely to happen anytime soon would you want those cretins?
 There not coming over here thats for sure
  What/who  exactly are they loyal too?


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## Teaboy (Dec 7, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Not likely to happen anytime soon would you want those cretins?


 
Perhaps, but it will happen though, its inevitable.


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## flypanam (Dec 7, 2012)

likesfish said:


> What/who exactly are they loyal too?


 
Their sense of victimhood and sense of superiority


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2012)

Teaboy said:


> Perhaps, but it will happen though, its inevitable.


 Not anytime soon with those barstards around.
     Ulster covenant my arse bunch of traitors if they'd been out back in the box home rule might have worked and ireland would be much better off either as part of the uk or independant and a few thousand people would still be breathing.


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## Deareg (Dec 7, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Not likely to happen anytime soon would you want those cretins?
> There not coming over here thats for sure
> What/who exactly are they loyal too?


The only thing that they are loyal to is their own bigotry and hatred.


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2012)

If they really wanted to be british they might just notice  England wales and most of scotland doesnt have a problem with catholics they might not actually know what a catholic or a protestant is and certainly dont care.
  If they come over here there paddy


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## Teaboy (Dec 7, 2012)

likesfish said:


> If they come over here there paddy


 
Blimey which part of the 70's do you live in?  I havent heard that phrase in England for donkeys years.  Outside of try-hard nobs trying to "do paddy's day"

Oh and _they're._


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## mattie (Dec 7, 2012)

likesfish said:


> If they really wanted to be british they might just notice England wales and most of scotland doesnt have a problem with catholics they might not actually know what a catholic or a protestant is and certainly dont care.
> If they come over here there paddy


 
You seem to be forgetting 700-odd years of near-enough constant aggro.


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## likesfish (Dec 7, 2012)

which most other people have as well had a neighbour who is going to catholic church to get his kids in to the catholic secondary school.
 distinct lack of anyone trying to burn his house down or make any sort of threats at all or care really.
  which is as it should be unlike the sick countie.


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 7, 2012)

Looks like it's gonna kick off proper this weekend.....
tbh: They are revealing themselves for the cavemen they are..... In my wee town they hung the 'butchers apron' outside the shinners office and have put a few flags up ( all taken down natch )
On the Crumlin Road (belfast) earlier 20 of them managed to block the road whilst the RUC looked on.... You know if it had of been a white-line picket or anything vaguely republican, all would have been scooped etc...
Interesting times.....


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## Deareg (Dec 7, 2012)

She is really gettin about!


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## likesfish (Dec 8, 2012)

Theres always east falkland its cold wet theres no trees theres even a catholic state trying to take there home perfect what more could they want ship them some alcohol and track suits it will be grand.
 Theres even a west falkland to be bigoted about


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## weepiper (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Most of them will probably fuckoff back to Scotland.


 
Fuck's sake, _we_ don't want 'em!


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## cemertyone (Dec 8, 2012)

I was in Sandy Row last night ( i live there now) and you should have seen the state of the best that
ulster loyalism had to offer..feral teenagers attacking people..blocking roads, attempting to hijack vans with little or no reaction from the PSNI..
They first gathered outside the bozzer opp Sandy row supporters club for a tank up and then off they marched....it was beautiful..Doctor Paisley would have been proud...


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## paolo (Dec 8, 2012)

Anyone here think the Alliance Party are cunts? Worth attacking homes?


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

paolo said:


> Anyone here think the Alliance Party are cunts? Worth attacking homes?


I have always thought that they were our version of the Liberals.


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Just heard that they are now attacking any cars turning up into the nationalist part of Ligoniel, this is after causing widespread disruption last night while the police just stood back and watched them.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 8, 2012)

so the psni are still as massively partian as the old ruc then.

moar no surrender mash ups pls, that no limits one is worthy to be a phone ringtone


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## likesfish (Dec 8, 2012)

Found this on another site 
The peelers are always standing there like Da's with spoilt kids. 

"Fuck if I smack them in public I'll never hear the end of it...childline...Eostre Ratzen...fuuckkkkk but they are doin my bap in, they need a right good hoofin."

We should probably have the riots in ASDA to make it truly authentic.

Wait my conspirometer ouija board says that the whole thing was organised by the Public Order training guys at Steeple...spirits say something about OT and the price of Skylanders Giants.


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Loyalists are rioting after the council voted to restrict the flying of the butchers apron to 15 set days a year, they tried to storm the council chamber and are now reported to be attacking the Nationalist Short Strand area again, though that is not mentioned in the link.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20587538


 
That is truly offensive.


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> It really sticks in their craw that they don't control Belfast city council anymore.


 
I don't see there being quite so many Alliance Party councillors after the next election. As always, the non voters really hold the balance of power, and there will be fewer of them next time round.

Protest is fine. Violent protest is not, and threatening people's lives over this is beyond insanity.

If you don't like what your council has done, change the council at the next election, but fire bombing of offices, and hurling stones through someone's window, never mind when there is a baby in the room, is despicable.


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is truly offensive.


It is indeed offensive.


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## peterkro (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> That is truly offensive.


It may be offensive to you but it's accurate.


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> I don't see there being quite so many Alliance Party councillors after the next election. As always, the non voters really hold the balance of power, and there will be fewer of them next time round.
> 
> Protest is fine. Violent protest is not, and threatening people's lives over this is beyond insanity.
> 
> If you don't like what your council has done, change the council at the next election, but fire bombing of offices, and hurling stones through someone's window, never mind when there is a baby in the room, is despicable.


You seem to be forgetting that this place was founded on violence and the threat of violence, so what makes you so shocked and outraged at them using violence everytime they do not like something?


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

peterkro said:


> It may be offensive to you but it's accurate.


 
I think we may have to disagree on this one. How would citizens of Eire like it if I described their flag as ' the Nazi collaborator's rag ' ?


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> You seem to be forgetting that this place was founded on violence and the threat of violence, so what makes you so shocked and outraged at them using violence everytime they do not like something?


 
I thought that they had grown up a bit, seems I was wrong.

Edited to add:

Not shocked and outraged, just sad. The last thing that any sane persons wants is an escalation of violence.


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## connollyist (Dec 8, 2012)

Actually this was the flag of the blue shirts, the Irish fascists...







As for the 'union jack' it's called the butchers apron for the reasons outlined in this indymedia article

These are the true flags of Ireland in my eyes anyways


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## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think we may have to disagree on this one. How would citizens of Eire like it if I described their flag as ' the Nazi collaborator's rag ' ?


 
ah, Irish 'collboration'. the siren call of the lesser spotted fuckwit.


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think we may have to disagree on this one. How would citizens of Eire like it if I described their flag as ' the Nazi collaborator's rag ' ?


I think the vast majority would have no idea what you were on about, especially as it is in no way historically accurate, I don't want to get into an argument with you here, but if you are looking for Nazi collaborators I suggest you start with numerous members of your own royal family.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 8, 2012)

I hold in my hands a piece of paper

that basically allows the retaking if the Sudetenland against the Versailles treaty and the 'annexation' of Czechoslovakia?

now thats collaboration


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## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

it's a huge assumption though. collaboration is working for the enemy. the british can only describe the irish as colaborating if they think they had the right to decide who ireland's enemies were. this is before we get onto the question of who churchill trusted with Britain's gold reserve when he was preparing for invasion.


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## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Uncle Andy saw it coming!


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I think the vast majority would have no idea what you were on about, especially as it is in no way historically accurate, I don't want to get into an argument with you here, but if you are looking for Nazi collaborators I suggest you start with numerous members of your own royal family.


 
So the reports of U-Boat refuelling etc... you're right. I haven't the energy either.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I hold in my hands a piece of paper
> 
> that basically allows the retaking if the Sudetenland against the Versailles treaty and the 'annexation' of Czechoslovakia?
> 
> now thats collaboration


 
Depends how you view it of course. Yours is one view, the year or so that it bought us to rearm is another...


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Ulster loyalist leader warns flag protests are close to spiralling out of control

I dunno... whats a happening...
I'm based in Tyrone... last night we removed a number of butchers aprons from our wee town.... (lol hard to find a 20 foot ladder at 2 a.m )
Are the loyalists really facing their last stand?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> So the reports of U-Boat refuelling etc... you're right. I haven't the energy either.



are u for real? please prove your accusations.......


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> ah, Irish 'collboration'. the siren call of the lesser spotted fuckwit.


 
Ad hominem attack. Cardinal sign of an arsehole without a valid argument. Thick arsehole at that, I suggest that you read the history of the time.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

connollyist said:


> Actually this was the flag of the blue shirts, the Irish fascists...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Indymedia! Who the fuck would take that dross as even being remotely acquainted with a fact, never mind facts. An oxymoron if ever there was one.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> I suggest that you read the history of the time.


 
and remember who wrote it.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> So the reports of U-Boat refuelling etc... you're right. I haven't the energy either.


Have you any proof of this happening?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> Depends how you view it of course. Yours is one view, the year or so that it bought us to rearm is another...


 
We'd been steadily re-arming for a few years before that. Molotov ribbentrop wasn't far different in motivation. But if we look at treating with nazis in that light, in the light of peoples readying themselves for conflict.....


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ad hominem attack. Cardinal sign of an arsehole without a valid argument. Thick arsehole at that, I suggest that you read the history of the time.


 

I can drag up dozens of examples where you call names, you just get all prissy when it gets thrown at you. pathetic really.

but i think that the main problem you have is that you've been drip fed a particular myth that the evidence does not support, but typically of people that prefer to believe these myths, you dismiss the people that prefer an evidence based approach because that does not fit the myth you choose to believe in. i come accross this a lot. People who are at the best believing, for example, an outdated simplified version of history that they were taught at school and just won't accept that the evidence now uncovered just does not support that viewpoint.

So you can take your own advice, and read some actual history, not the mythology that you're promoting here. I know the myths, I was raised to believe in them. taught in irish colaboration as fact. Then i read the history. examined the evidence. and realised that the version i'd been taught was bullshit.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Dec 8, 2012)

http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html

About the first four off Google. Hell of a lot of information there, and all wrong no doubt.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> So the reports of U-Boat refuelling etc... you're right. I haven't the energy either.


 
This is tired old bullshit. Like I said to Andrew Hertford the other week; stop trolling and stinking up threads with this historically inaccurate nonsense. Either grow a pair and start a thread - where we can definitively destroy your piss-poor propaganda - of fuck off.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Have you any proof of this happening?


There is absolutely no proof... maybes the old lad is getting confused with the Russell et al incident?
ffs: Dev set up internment camps against 'republicans' during the 'war period'.....


----------



## LiamO (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ad hominem attack. Cardinal sign of an arsehole without a valid argument. Thick arsehole at that, I suggest that you read the history of the time.


 
Start the thread or STFU... you boring boor.


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> Indymedia! Who the fuck would take that dross as even being remotely acquainted with a fact, never mind facts. An oxymoron if ever there was one.


considering your evidence free assertions in this thread, you've got some cheek complaining about someone else's sources


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


 
As i said earlier Russell etc hardly constitute an Irish sympathy with the Nazis... indeed my country has a proud tradition of opposing the fash... Spain etc....

Are you saying the free state gov sided with the Nazis? If you are you are a fool......


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> There is absolutely no proof... maybes the old lad is getting confused with the Russell et al incident?
> ffs: Dev set up internment camps against 'republicans' during the 'war period'.....


 
and churchill trusted dev with britain's gold reserve.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


 
Don't engage with this halfwit. He must have been at the cooking sherry again. He only comes on here when he's either pissed  - or looking for an excuse to get pissed. If you upset him it will be legal threats all round anyway.

Sass, I'll leave it to Violent Panda,  fellow british-army Veteran - one who actually saw a bit of combat, and who has sought to challenge and open his mind consistently since - to wipe the floor with your pathetic provocation.


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


 
you are seriously complaing about someone else's sources, then quoting wiki? seriously?


and again, go read some history. do you actually believe the free state gvt and the ira were the same organisation at this point?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> and churchill trusted dev with britain's gold reserve.


 
There you go again with your pesky facts!


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


 
Are you talking about Irish government allowing the refuelling (which is what I thought that you meant) or elements of the IRA, which is already well known, none of the links that you provided offer any actual evidence of U-boat refuelling at Irish ports and at least one of the links is frankly embarrassing on your part!, you may as well have linked to the UDA or UVF! But British royal family collaboration is well documented.


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Are you talking about Irish government allowing the refuelling (which is what I thought that you meant) or elements of the IRA, which is already well known, none of the links that you provided offer any actual evidence of U-boat refuelling at Irish ports and at least one of the links is frankly embarrassing on your part!, you may as well have linked to the UDA or UVF! But British royal family collaboration is well documented.


 
2 of them are embarassing, one is questionable and the other irrelevent.

If the IRA were promoting pro german actions in the US at a time when the us was at war with germany, then of course that was giving favour to the enemy of the US. that is not the issue. the issue is that supporters of the british government think they had the right to judge the actions of ireland, as though ireland was still a part of the union in '39-45.

eta; and they ignore the quite considerable amount of pro british bias of the actions of thre irish government during that time and the context of ireland's own internal politics. dev went as far as he could have gone in supporting the british without getting himself lynched


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


since you have time on your hands and a bigoted attitude... go google ' English *collaborators* with the nazis'

Anyhows back on topic... whats a happening in our statelet? Im hearing of loyalist actions with limited support?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> since you have time on your hands and a bigoted attitude... go google ' English *collaborators* with the nazis'
> 
> Anyhows back on topic... whats a happening in our statelet? Im hearing of loyalist actions with limited support?


You can always get people out for a good riot, no matter what the issue is.


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> since you have time on your hands and a bigoted attitude... go google ' English *collaborators* with the nazis'
> 
> Anyhows back on topic... whats a happening in our statelet? Im hearing of loyalist actions with limited support?


 

he could also go look at the records of the irishmen that served in the british army in ww2. i believe that did include a few former ira who thought the british were less of a threat than fascism.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> he could also go look at the records of the irishmen that served in the british army in ww2. i believe that did include a few former ira who thought the british were less of a threat than fascism.


My dad deserted the Irish army and joined the British army, he was ex IRA.


----------



## two sheds (Dec 8, 2012)

"Hurrah for the blackshirts."


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> You can always get people out for a good riot, no matter what the issue is.


I'm hearing they arent getting the numbers out, with RUC compliancy....
Flashpoints have 'eruptedish' but with no significant numbers? Jaysus 5 of us battered the flag brigade in my wee parish last night easily.. the ladder helped


----------



## toggle (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> My dad deserted the Irish army and joined the British army, he was ex IRA.


 
careful now, can the old boy digest any more of those pesky facts?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> I'm hearing they arent getting the numbers out, with RUC compliancy....
> Flashpoints have 'eruptedish' but with no significant numbers? Jaysus 5 of us battered the flag brigade in my wee parish last night easily.. the ladder helped


As has already been pointed out, they are numbering in the hundreds whereas in the past there would have been 10's of thousands of them and even Unionist politicians were forced to condemn them,,,, eventually!


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

toggle said:


> careful now, can the old boy digest any more of those pesky facts?


He will just ignore anything that disproves his beliefs, just like all good rightwingers.


----------



## rekil (Dec 8, 2012)

Ireland was of course one of the world's top oil producers so literally any old eejit was able to refuel a passing u-boat.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> He will just ignore anything that disproves his beliefs, just like all good rightwingers.


 
the sad fantasist will probably just slope off back to the fluffy threads were he's ideas won't get challenged for a few weeks that normally what he does.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> the sad fantasist will probably just slope off back to the fluffy threads were he's ideas won't get challenged for a few weeks that normally what he does.


'he' has gone silent as it goes?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

Deareg said:


> As has already been pointed out, they are numbering in the hundreds whereas in the past there would have been 10's of thousands of them and even Unionist politicians were forced to condemn them,,,, eventually!


 
kinda weird though innit?


----------



## YouSir (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> 'he' has gone silent as it goes?


 
I argued with him once then realised how pointless it was, on every thread, almost without fail, where his views are challenged he disappears. Then he comes back jokey and friendly until the next time he makes a twat of himself - rinse and repeat. Forget the blatant trolls and bigots, he remains my least favourite poster and, imho, a cunt to boot.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

from a friend:


> Just had a look around Belfast. Mostly quiet, some trouble at the village and loyalists gathering at ligonel, approx 100. Avoid these areas if you can.


----------



## Ld222 (Dec 8, 2012)

Protesters have took to a pitch at an Irish League game in Ballinamallard

https://twitter.com/...5007872/photo/1


----------



## Ld222 (Dec 8, 2012)

*Chris Lindsay*‏
@
*chrislindsay_*
Car burning earlier off newtonards road east
http://twitpic.com/bk6vl6


----------



## Deareg (Dec 8, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> from a friend:


My sons girlfriend works in the City hospital and could not get into work tonight.


----------



## Ld222 (Dec 8, 2012)

*Jim Dowson and Britain First on the streets of Belfast*







In the aftermath of the disgusting decision to remove the Union Flag from Belfast City Hall, Britain First’s Jim Dowson has addressed thousands of loyalists in Belfast.
Jim, along with Britain First activists, took to the streets and joined protests against this disgraceful, Sinn Fein led, attack on our flag.
We will never surrender, our flag should fly proud on every day of the year.
This attack on Ulster’s British identity will not succeed, our flag will never be trampled under the Sinn Fein/IRA jackboot.
No surrender, this is OUR flag – the bigots who would see it consigned to the dustbin of history will never be victorious.





http://www.britainfirst.org/news/jim-dowson-and-britain-first-on-the-streets-of-belfast/


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 8, 2012)

oh u mean the far-right scottish blow in Jim? (btw the link is to a fash site)
and further details....



> The controversial former BNP fundraiser [below with BNP leader Nick Griffin, right] and convicted thug not only runs his own fascist organisation to rival the BNP, he’s also the main fundraiser for the rival English Democratic Party.
> A controversial and unpleasant character, Dowson is the pit of all dubious far-right funding in the UK. His lust for publicity seems to have no limit.
> Dowson turned up at the demonstrations as a self proclaimed “Christian” minister as well as the head of another organisation that he claims to lead, ‘The UK Life League’


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 8, 2012)

Can't they just fly this instead?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 8, 2012)

Actually I have great sympathy for these protestors.

They are only behaving as they have always behaved... as they have been encouraged to behave... down through the generations... by their lords and masters... the unionist ascendancy. They are probably genuinely confused as to why the politicos are not falling over themselves to justify their outrage in words of more than one syllable.

In many ways they are like a middle-age drunk, still in the same pub 20 years on, boring the hole off young people going on about the 'good old days' before all his mates grew up, had kids, moved on.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 8, 2012)

weepiper said:


> Fuck's sake, _we_ don't want 'em!


Should be on the 'scotland independence' thread


----------



## love detective (Dec 9, 2012)




----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 9, 2012)

Lowering our flag is a shameful surrender to Ulster’s gangsters

good ol Daily Fail reporting... at first I thought it was the 'Onion'


----------



## flypanam (Dec 9, 2012)

Given all the guff about the centenary of The Covenant, the fact that loyalism can only get out 100's, even with DUP and UUP backing, is really quite remarkable.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 9, 2012)




----------



## sunny jim (Dec 9, 2012)

From the Peter Hitchens/Daily Fail article AKA put up


> I was amused to see that Mrs Hillary Clinton,* that nasty hard Leftist now aiming for the White House,* had her vote-winning visit to Northern Ireland spoiled by the flag riots on Friday.


 
On what planet is Hilary Clinton a hard leftist?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2012)

sunny jim said:


> From the Peter Hitchens/Daily Fail article AKA put up
> 
> 
> On what planet is Hilary Clinton a hard leftist?


 
Peter 'Bonkers' Hitchens eh


----------



## N_igma (Dec 9, 2012)

Looks like I'm missing absolutely fuck all back home.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 9, 2012)

sunny jim said:


> From the Peter Hitchens/Daily Fail article AKA put up
> 
> 
> On what planet is Hilary Clinton a hard leftist?


 

its the fail, anything left of pinochet counts as full blown communist


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> This is tired old bullshit. Like I said to Andrew Hertford the other week; stop trolling and stinking up threads with this historically inaccurate nonsense. Either grow a pair and start a thread - where we can definitively destroy your piss-poor propaganda - of fuck off.


 
How is it "historically inaccurate piss poor propaganda" Liam?


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> How is it "historically inaccurate piss poor propaganda" Liam?


 

he forgot to add that it's manufactured in the imaginations of those that wank over old empire maps


----------



## CyberRose (Dec 9, 2012)

Seems to be stirring up quite a lot of emotions of both sides of the divide for "just a flag"...


----------



## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Seems to be stirring up quite a lot of emotions of both sides of the divide for "just a flag"...


Both sides?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)




----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Seems to be stirring up quite a lot of emotions of both sides of the divide for "just a flag"...


 
like a huge temper tntrum from one side while the other watches and giggles a bit before feeling a bit sorry for the screaming hystercal shit making a twat of themselves.


----------



## CyberRose (Dec 9, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Both sides?


You have no strong feelings towards the "Butcher's Apron"?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> You have no strong feelings towards the "Butcher's Apron"?


Not enough to go out and start rioting, It has always flown in Nationalist areas, areas that used to be Unionist but have now changed still fly it every day of the year outside the local Orange halls with very few problems, anyone with any sense just ignores it.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> How is it "historically inaccurate piss poor propaganda" Liam?


 
Yawn. Either grow a pair and start the thread or fuck away off back to Troll-land...

... either way I am not stinking up another thread by engaging with your nonsense.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Yawn. Either grow a pair and start the thread or fuck away off back to Troll-land...
> 
> ... either way I am not stinking up another thread by engaging with your nonsense.


 
Instead of calling it propaganda and then running for cover, explain _why_ it's propaganda or simply shut the fuck up.


----------



## N_igma (Dec 9, 2012)

There is only one solution to this situation and that is to get a new flag and raise it at the city hall. One side should be green to represent the Republican side, one side should be orange to represent the Unionist side and there should be a white bit in the middle to represent peace.


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Instead of calling it propaganda and then running for cover, explain _why_ it's propaganda or simply shut the fuck up.


 
this has already been explained, in thre last thread where you started spewing this crap, and to sas in this one. there is nothing stopping you reading this. apart from your own choice to remain ignorant


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

N_igma said:


> There is only one solution to this situation and that is to get a new flag and raise it at the city hall. One side should be green to represent the Republican side, one side should be orange to represent the Unionist side and there should be a white bit in the middle to represent peace.


 
Some of them are so thick, you might even be able to sell that to them!


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> this has already been explained, in thre last thread where you started spewing this crap, and to sas in this one. there is nothing stopping you reading this. apart from your own choice to remain ignorant


 
Nothing was "explained" on the last thread I saw where this came up.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 9, 2012)

N_igma said:


> There is only one solution to this situation and that is to get a new flag and raise it at the city hall. One side should be green to represent the Republican side, one side should be orange to represent the Unionist side and there should be a white bit in the middle to represent peace.



I think 30 odd years of murder by one side wrapping itself in that flag has  rather ruined that ideal


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> Seems to be stirring up quite a lot of emotions of both sides of the divide for "just a flag"...


 
both sides?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Instead of calling it propaganda and then running for cover, explain _why_ it's propaganda or simply shut the fuck up.


 


LiamO said:


> Yawn. Either grow a pair and start the thread or fuck away off back to Troll-land...
> 
> ... either way I am not stinking up another thread by engaging with your nonsense.


----------



## CyberRose (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> both sides?


That's right, I went there


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

CyberRose said:


> That's right, I went there


 
Sorry I don't understand what you have posted at all.

You went where, specifically?

When, specifically?

And that means what, specifically?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

likesfish said:


> I think 30 odd years of murder by one side wrapping itself in that flag has rather ruined that ideal


 
Whereas pre-1968, Unionists embraced the spirit of the tricolour so enthusiastically?

BTW, Nigma was (wittily) taking the piss.


----------



## framed (Dec 9, 2012)

likesfish said:


> I think 30 odd years of murder by one side wrapping itself in that flag has rather ruined that ideal


----------



## two sheds (Dec 9, 2012)

likesfish said:


> I think 30 odd years of murder by one side wrapping itself in that flag has rather ruined that ideal


 
Bit longer than that - nearly 1500 years surely. It's a bit unfair calling it murder, though, they were really just squaddies doing what the British Government told them to do.


----------



## Kuso (Dec 9, 2012)

For those of you in Belfast> I've heard that tomorrow the protests are supposed to be moving to the Ormeau Road, so that might be an area to avoid from around tea time onwards.  It is just what I've heard locally and wouldn't necessarily take it as gospel but just a heads up in case.

Hope it really doesn't move that direction because any 'protest' around the Ormeau bridge area will most likely turn to trouble.  Plus, it'll be a nightmare for me to get home


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Yawn. Either grow a pair and start the thread or fuck away off back to Troll-land...
> 
> ... either way I am not stinking up another thread by engaging with your nonsense.


 
But on threads about the antagonism between the two communities, the much written about subject of nazi collaboration is inevitably going to be referred to now and then. If you don't want to discuss it here, then fair enough, but please at least feel free to pm me with your reasons for dismissing the whole thing as propaganda.


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> But on threads about the antagonism between the two communities, the much written about subject of nazi collaboration is inevitably going to be referred to now and then. If you don't want to discuss it here, then fair enough, but please at least feel free to pm me with your reasons for dismissing the whole thing as propaganda.


 
read the thread. all of it.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> read the thread. all of it.


 
But there's nothing there to say that an article like this for example is all lies:
http://www.historyireland.com/volumes/volume13/issue3/features/?id=113841

As I said to Liam, please pm me if you don't want it discussed here.


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

there is if you're literate.


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> But on threads about the antagonism between the two communities, the much written about subject of nazi collaboration is inevitably going to be referred to now and then. If you don't want to discuss it here, then fair enough, but please at least feel free to pm me with your reasons for dismissing the whole thing as propaganda.


 

Scraping the barrel though no? Obviously there may be many reasons why teenage loyalists are rioting over flag protocol but to bring in Irish Republican associations with the Nazis is a bit lame to say the least. It's only inevitable that it's going to be referred to if some people insist on throwing it into the mix because they have nothing else to say or insights to share about the 'antagonism between the communities' in the here and now. In this discussion at least it's as redundant as bringing in Loyalist associations with far right groups in the much more recent past. Isn't there some kind of rule about bringing the 'Nazis' into any discussion, it's over unless it's about Nazis of course, which this isn't. Evidently there's some baggage here with other people which everyone else couldn't give a toss about but do us all a favour and leave it out here or start another thread or something.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 9, 2012)

hmmm... seems like things are gonna be mental this week....
Just seen an internal doc issued by the Loyalists outlining the various towns etc where they will be protesting ( I wasnt allowed a copy of the doc )  
They are gonna be in my wee town tomorow eve... Kinda weird as the Shinners policy now is to ignore them?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Buckaroo said:


> ... but do us all a favour and leave it out here or start another thread or something.


 
this.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> As I said to Liam, please pm me if you don't want it discussed here.


 

yawn. STT or STFU.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

Buckaroo said:


> Scraping the barrel though no? Obviously there may be many reasons why teenage loyalists are rioting over flag protocol but to bring in Irish Republican associations with the Nazis is a bit lame to say the least. It's only inevitable that it's going to be referred to if some people insist on throwing it into the mix because they have nothing else to say or insights to share about the 'antagonism between the communities' in the here and now. In this discussion at least it's as redundant as bringing in Loyalist associations with far right groups in the much more recent past. Isn't there some kind of rule about bringing the 'Nazis' into any discussion, it's over unless it's about Nazis of course, which this isn't. Evidently there's some baggage here with other people which everyone else couldn't give a toss about but do us all a favour and leave it out here or start another thread or something.


 
It wasn't me that brought it into the discussion, I merely responded to Liam's 'it's all piss poor propaganda' attitude by asking him to explain why, because past events that _appear_ to have plenty of evidence and testimony to back them up should not be dismissed in that way without explanation imo. I've invited him to pm me if he doesn't want to discuss it here.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> yawn. STT or STFU.


 
I wouldn't know mate, I'm sure either would be fine. Sorry you feel historical accuracy is so boring.


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## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> It wasn't me that brought it into the discussion, I merely responded to Liam's 'it's all piss poor propaganda' attitude by asking him to explain why, because past events that _appear_ to have plenty of evidence and testimony to back them up should not be dismissed in that way without explanation imo. I've invited him to pm me if he doesn't want to discuss it here.


I am sure that there is no evidence at all of collaboration between the Irish government and the Nazi's which was the allegation that Sas made and then could not back up on this thread, there has been some between elements of the IRA and Nazi's though, but when you take into account that Republicanism has always been a broad front which took in all shades of political opinion it is not actually that surprising, shameful certainly, but not surprising.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I am sure that there is no evidence at all of collaboration between the Irish government and the Nazi's which was the allegation that Sas made and then could not back up on this thread, there has been some between elements of the IRA and Nazi's though, but when you take into account that Republicanism has always been a broad front which took in all shades of political opinion it is not actually that surprising, shameful certainly, but not surprising.


 
I agree, but I think 'some _elements_ of the IRA' is understating it.


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## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I agree, but I think 'some _elements_ of the IRA' is understating it.


How else would you describe it?


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

Deareg said:


> How else would you describe it?


 
I don't think we're supposed to keep discussing it here.... but although I'm sure not everyone was suddenly pro nazi, Sean Russell _was_ Chief of Staff.


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## Kaka Tim (Dec 9, 2012)

Any thing going down in Maghera in Derry? Its where the missus is from and pretty evenly split between the papists and the prods.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> I think we may have to disagree on this one. How would citizens of Eire like it if I described their flag as ' the Nazi collaborator's rag ' ?


 
The butchers' bill under the Union flag can only ever be described as far outweighing the collaborationism of a small section of the population of Eire, as I'm sure you know. Equating the two is the act of a dishonest muppet, Gonzo.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> Ad hominem attack. Cardinal sign of an arsehole without a valid argument. Thick arsehole at that, I suggest that you read the history of the time.


 
She has, much more deeply than you have. It's why her labelling you as a fuckwit in this matter is valid.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> http://globalsecuritystudies.com/Higley IRA.pdf
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_Republican_Army_–_Abwehr_collaboration_in_World_War_II
> http://www.topsecretwriters.com/2011/04/ira-collaboration-nazi-germany/
> http://www.victims.org.uk/nazi.html
> ...


 
Did the IRA comprise the entire Eirean polity then?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> As i said earlier Russell etc hardly constitute an Irish sympathy with the Nazis... indeed my country has a proud tradition of opposing the fash... Spain etc....
> 
> Are you saying the free state gov sided with the Nazis? If you are you are a fool......


 
De Valera's government had no need and no inclination to break their neutrality in favour of Axis, and in fact they impinged quite a bit on their neutrality in favour of the Allies, in matters that weren't primarily military. Anyone who seeks to say otherwise is either wilfully ignorant or fundamentally incapable of basic historical research of a standard a 15-yr old could manage.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> It wasn't me that brought it into the discussion, I merely responded to Liam's 'it's all piss poor propaganda' attitude by asking him to explain why, because past events that _appear_ to have plenty of evidence and testimony to back them up should not be dismissed in that way without explanation imo. I've invited him to pm me if he doesn't want to discuss it here.


 

Well in terms of this discussion it is 'piss poor propoganda' because it has fuck all to do with this. You didn't 'merely' respond to anything, you're making a point about current events and trying to validate it by dragging in historical associations which aren't relevant to this discussion. Who cares if you've pm'ed anyone, make a point, discuss it, whatever, fuck it. That's the rub, if you had anything to say, and there are loads of things to say on all sides, you would but you don't. Seriously have you got anything to say about this situation? If not then start a thread about Irish Republicanism and Nazis. If not then shut up. And please don't respond with some bullshit 'I didn't start it, he did.' Or pm me, but just fuck off this thread.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

N_igma said:


> There is only one solution to this situation and that is to get a new flag and raise it at the city hall. One side should be green to represent the Republican side, one side should be orange to represent the Unionist side and there should be a white bit in the middle to represent peace.


 
Nah, what you really need is Roman amphitheatre-type gangs, based on the colours gladiators wore. The Greens and The Oranges! Watch the gladiators chop fuck out of each other, then a ruck outside the stadium!!


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Whereas pre-1968, Unionists embraced the spirit of the tricolour so enthusiastically?
> 
> BTW, Nigma was (wittily) taking the piss.


 
Unfortunately, no-one would go for it, primarily because the Tricolour is a fucking awful Technicolor Yawn of clashing colours.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

No flags. Sorted.


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

Buckaroo said:


> Well in terms of this discussion it is 'piss poor propoganda' because it has fuck all to do with this. You didn't 'merely' respond to anything, you're making a point about current events and trying to validate it by dragging in historical associations which aren't relevant to this discussion. Who cares if you've pm'ed anyone, make a point, discuss it, whatever, fuck it. That's the rub, if you had anything to say, and there are loads of things to say on all sides, you would but you don't. Seriously have you got anything to say about this situation? If not then start a thread about Irish Republicanism and Nazis. If not then shut up. And please don't respond with some bullshit 'I didn't start it, he did.' Or pm me, but just fuck off this thread.


 
You pompous twat. I challenged someone's dismissal of historical fact. End of. I'd already commented on the 'Loyalist' flag protest.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> You pompous twat. I challenged someone's dismissal of historical fact. End of. I'd already commented on the 'Loyalist' flag protest.


 
Pompous?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I don't think we're supposed to keep discussing it here.... but although I'm sure not everyone was suddenly pro nazi, Sean Russell _was_ Chief of Staff.


It was still a small element of an organisation which at that time had no more than a few hundred members, if he hadn't held the rank that he did it is doubtful that he would have been able to act in the way that he did. Thousands of Irishmen and women enlisted in the British, American, Australian and Canadian armies to fight against Fascism but you Sas and Likefish would rather focus your attention on that dozen or so.


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## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> You pompous twat. I challenged someone's dismissal of historical fact. End of. I'd already commented on the 'Loyalist' flag protest.


 
oh dear. one of those. you're not actualy quoting a historical fact, you're quoting one interpretation, and a particularly biased one at that. I would suggest that your insistance in stating that your interpretation is fact shows that you have never undertaken any serious study of history and really don't understand anyhting about how history is written.


so, i'll take pity on you and try to explain this in simple terms.

what is a colaborator? i'd define it as someone who gives assistance to the enemy in time of war.

who defines who an enemy is? i'd suggest that the legitimte government of a state defines that.At this time, the legitimate government of ireland was situated in dublin, not westminster.

was Germany the enemy of Ireland? No. ireland was neutral as was decided by the government of ireland in dublin. Dev recieved an offer of irish unification from churchill in return for abandoning neutrality, which he turned down.

The only way in which you could define any actions of irish citizens in ireland as colaboration is if you think an external authority ie. the british government in westminster, had more right to decide who the enemy of ireland was than the legitimately elected government of ireland.

Some irish citizens gave aid to the germans. Many more irish citizens, including dev, gave assistance to the allies. Churchill certainly understood this when he entrusted the gold reserve to pay British troops to dev's care.and we certainly didn't turn away irish citizens willing to fight against the germans. legally the status of an irish citizen supporting the british government was equal to the legal status of an irish citizen supporting the german govenment. and this holds true whatever we think about the morality of that position.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Nah, what you really need is Roman amphitheatre-type gangs, based on the colours gladiators wore. The Greens and The Oranges! Watch the gladiators chop fuck out of each other, then a ruck outside the stadium!!


 
Sounds like Glasgow.


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## connollyist (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> was Germany the enemy of Ireland? No. ireland was neutral as was decided by the government of ireland in dublin. *Dev recieved an offer of irish unification from churchill in return for abandoning neutrality, which he turned down.*


 
I did not know that... not the greatest fan of Dev at all, I can understand he may have felt that he did not want to deal with another civil war that might have happened if he had accepted and he may have also truly believed in remaining neutral? Dev was for better or worse a man of his principles, though he principles above those of others as well.


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## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

connollyist said:


> I did not know that... not the greatest fan of Dev at all, I can understand he may have felt that he did not want to deal with another civil war that might have happened if he had accepted and he may have also truly believed in remaining neutral? Dev was for better or worse a man of his principles, though he principles above those of others as well.


 
supprised me the first time i read about it.

I think it was also about government by consent. The unionists would not have accepted unification, and dev did not believe he could or should force them unwillingly into the irish state. he wanted the north to come willingly.


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> oh dear. one of those. you're not actualy quoting a historical fact, you're quoting one interpretation, and a particularly biased one at that. I would suggest that your insistance in stating that your interpretation is fact shows that you have never undertaken any serious study of history and really don't understand anyhting about how history is written.
> 
> 
> so, i'll take pity on you and try to explain this in simple terms.
> ...


 
So the gist of your argument is that 'collaboration' is the incorrect word to use and that the nazis weren't at war with Ireland. Big fucking deal. As IRA chief of staff, Russell's eagerness to co-operate with the the nazis speaks for itself.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> So the gist of your argument is that 'collaboration' is the incorrect word to use and that the nazis weren't at war with Ireland. Big fucking deal. As IRA chief of staff, Russell's eagerness to co-operate with the the nazis speaks for itself.


 
Same old shit from the same old arsehole.


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## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> So the gist of your argument is that 'collaboration' is the incorrect word to use and that the nazis weren't at war with Ireland. Big fucking deal. As IRA chief of staff, Russell's eagerness to deal with the the nazis speaks for itself.


 
ti's every fucking deal, because it is about your right to think you get to define who people of another country get to deal with.it is about how british people think that because they used to run another country, they forever get to decide who everyone in that country should be loyal to.you have the freedom to choose, as long as you choose the way i tell you to. it's nost just britan that does this, but it certainly is a common legacy of british imperialism.

and it completely ignores that the amount of support given to the allies absolutely dwarfed the amount given to the germans.


and in the light of the history of the british rule in ireland, the levels of abuses tht took plce over centuries, that so many of the irish people and the irish government shoudl choose to support britain of their own free will says a lot about their willingness to forgive and forget. certainly a far greater ability to do so than someone who ignores this and focusses so much on the actions of a few men nd tries to tar a whole country with the same brush.

but you ignore the legalities and the facts, and happily hold on to your prejudices. just kindly stop derailing every fucking thread about ireland with them. it's boring to have to deal with your bigoted bullshit over and over again.


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## connollyist (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> So the gist of your argument is that 'collaboration' is the incorrect word to use and that the nazis weren't at war with Ireland. Big fucking deal. As IRA chief of staff, Russell's eagerness to deal with the the nazis speaks for itself.


 
No one is saying Russell was not a nationalist of maybe fairly blind morals, the Blueshirts, not fascists with support from the catholic church and an element of the Irish population were not fascists or at least sympathizers.. as were Mosley and his British fascists. However neither organisation represented a majority did it now? You cannot then tar the entire population of Ireland or all of the volunteers of the IRA with the brush of collaboration. Many of those in opposition to Russell joined the Republican Congress and then fought in the Connolly Column of the International Brigades.

I think the term 'the butchers apron' is quite appropriate since it has been flown by forces that carried out genocide on their own island and across the world in the name of the crown of 'great britain'. All of those of Irish Origins in this thread are Socialist Republicans _I believe_... not Irish nationalists or even purely republicans. None of us think the sun shines out of the thóin of erin as far as I'm aware either. In fact I have seen much justified criticism of Ireland. I would personely always choose to fly the starry plough above the tricolour any day at any rate


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> ti's every fucking deal, because it is about your right to think you get to define who people of another country get to deal with.it is about how british people think that because they used to run another country, they forever get to decide who everyone in that country should be loyal to.you have the freedom to choose, as long as you choose the way i tell you to. it's nost just britan that does this, but it certainly is a common legacy of british imperialism.
> 
> and it completely ignores that the amount of support given to the allies absolutely dwarfed the amount given to the germans.
> 
> ...


 
What we all need to bear in mind is that Mr. Hertford is the man who compared the riots that started in Tottenham to _Kristallnacht_. Nothing more need be said about what sort of ahistoric, intellectually-flabby no-mark he is.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 9, 2012)

connollyist said:


> No one is saying Russell and the Blueshirts, with support from the catholic church and an element of the irish population were not fascists or at least sympathizers.. as were Mosley and his British fascists. However neither organisiton represented a majority was it now? You cannot then tar the entire population of Ireland or all of the volunteers of the IRA with the brush of collaboration. Many of those in opposition to Russell joined the Republican Congress and then fought in the Connolly Column of the International Brigades.


 
Blueshirts only numbered in their hundreds across the whole of Eire, as far as I recall, and the BUF only at around 30,000 across the UK at it's peak.



> I think the term 'the butchers apron' is quite appropriate since it has been flown by forces that carried out genocide on their own island and across the world in the name of the crown of 'great britain'. All of those of Irish Origins in this thread are Socialist Republicans _I believe_... not Irish nationalists or even purely republicans. None of us think the sun shines out of the thóin of erin as far as I'm aware either. In fact I have seen much justified criticism of Ireland. I would personely always choose to fly the starry plough above the tricolour any day at any rate


 
Most flags of more than a century or so's vintage could wear the appellation, but few have quite the historical record of the United Kingdom.


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> ti's every fucking deal, because it is about your right to think you get to define who people of another country get to deal with.it is about how british people think that because they used to run another country, they forever get to decide who everyone in that country should be loyal to.you have the freedom to choose, as long as you choose the way i tell you to. it's nost just britan that does this, but it certainly is a common legacy of british imperialism.
> 
> and it completely ignores that the amount of support given to the allies absolutely dwarfed the amount given to the germans.
> 
> ...


 
I didn't derail the thread, I challenged Liam to justify one sweeping statement and a couple of planks like you waded in and blew it out of all proportion. I know most Irish people supported the allies, I know that they were free to support whoever they wanted and that a handful of cunts like Sean Russell were free to back the nazis if they wanted to. 

As a republican supporter since about 1980, as someone who's married into an Irish republican family, as someone who's family suffered GREATLY during the second world war and as someone who has Jewish friends who probably wouldn't even have been born if Russell had had his way, I reckon I also have a right to challenge tossers who try and deny that there was ANY collusion between the IRA and the nazis.


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## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> but you ignore the legalities and the facts, and happily hold on to your prejudices. just kindly stop derailing every fucking thread about ireland with them. it's boring to have to deal with your bigoted bullshit over and over again.


 
Well said.

Do the world a favour and bore off Andrew....


and take your mummy with you...


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## DotCommunist (Dec 9, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> What we all need to bear in mind is that Mr. Hertford is the man who compared the riots that started in Tottenham to _Kristallnacht_. Nothing more need be said about what sort of ahistoric, intellectually-flabby no-mark he is.


 

slipping blud, slipping. It was not the tottengham hoo-ha that led to Andrews  kristellnacht comparison but instead a few stoved in bank windows during the students expression of righteous disgust some months earlier to the duggsn storm. Which could never have happened if the OB weren't so busy co busy covering arse they neglected to tell the family they'd gunned down their son


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## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> and as someone who has Jewish friends who probably wouldn't even have been born...


 
  "Some of my best friends are Jewish"?...  For real?

Enough already


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## connollyist (Dec 9, 2012)

thank you for enhancing my post there Violent Panda. Although I also edited it to clarify some of my points as well.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> "Some of my best friends are Jewish"?...  For real?
> 
> Enough already


 

Identity Top Trumps


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

connollyist said:


> No one is saying Russell and the Blueshirts, with support from the catholic church and an element of the irish population were not fascists or at least sympathizers.. as were Mosley and his British fascists. However neither organisiton represented a majority was it now? You cannot then tar the entire population of Ireland or all of the volunteers of the IRA with the brush of collaboration. Many of those in opposition to Russell joined the Republican Congress and then fought in the Connolly Column of the International Brigades.
> 
> I think the term 'the butchers apron' is quite appropriate since it has been flown by forces that carried out genocide on their own island and across the world in the name of the crown of 'great britain'. All of those of Irish Origins in this thread are Socialist Republicans _I believe_... not Irish nationalists or even purely republicans. None of us think the sun shines out of the thóin of erin as far as I'm aware either. In fact I have seen much justified criticism of Ireland. I would personely always choose to fly the starry plough above the tricolour any day at any rate


 
I don't disagree with you one jot mate. Perhaps Liam could tell us whether or not he agrees with your first sentence, because whenever I as much as even imply something similar, he starts jumping up and down and calling me a cunt!


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## connollyist (Dec 9, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> Identity Top Trumps


Some of my friends were born unionists, one if still a little confused. I was gonna rate him as a playing card, but I could probably only get away with it if we were sat in the pub and he could take the piss out of this... other than the occasional loyalistic comments, his socialism is pretty sound.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> So the gist of your argument is that 'collaboration' is the incorrect word to use and that the nazis weren't at war with Ireland. Big fucking deal. As IRA chief of staff, Russell's eagerness to co-operate with the the nazis speaks for itself.


 

No Andrew, your eagerness to link Russel and IRA associations with Nazis as representative of Ireland's collaboration speaks for itself. We could talk about British aristocracy and press barons support for the Nazis but it wouldn't be relevant to this discussion. You are making a fundamental mistake in equating one aspect of Irish Republicanism in a particular time with the Irish people, the Irish state and this local, flag protocol problems of recent days in part of this island of Ireland. I understand your frustations in making a coherent point but your argument is weak. PM me if you need to but please fuck off this thread if you can't be bothered to think about current events without resorting to  the 'Nazi' thing. It's too cheap, easy and wrong.


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## connollyist (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> I don't disagree with you one jot mate. Perhaps Liam could tell us whether or not he agrees with your first sentence, because whenever I as much as even imply something similar, he starts jumping up and down and calling me a cunt!


I edited my post to clarify my points. No one is saying there have never been fascists in Ireland, but the reason I got innvolved in this thread, was this post by someone else who you seem to be willing to defend despite he having read a very selective, biased history written by those with dubious aims...



Sasaferrato said:


> I think we may have to disagree on this one. How would citizens of Eire like it if I described their flag as ' the Nazi collaborator's rag ' ?


 
I'm not looking for Liam's approval anymore than yours but I think you've made a few more sweeping statements here than he has in the debate about irish fascist collusion that seems to be side tracking this thread? Although I'm guilty of sidetracking it now to be fair.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

Buckaroo said:


> No Andrew, your eagerness to link Russel and IRA associations with Nazis as representative of Ireland's collaboration speaks for itself. We could talk about British aristocracy and press barons support for the Nazis but it wouldn't be relevant to this discussion. You are making a fundamental mistake in equating one aspect of Irish Republicanism in a particular time with the Irish people, the Irish state and this local, flag protocol problems of recent days in part of this island of Ireland. I understand your frustations in making a coherent point but your argument is weak. PM me if you need to but please fuck off this thread if you can't be bothered to think about current events without resorting to the 'Nazi' thing. It's too cheap, easy and wrong.


 
But I'm not equating the two, I merely said that in a thread about the antagonism between the two communities, the subject of IRA collusion with the nazis was likely to come up (which it did) and why shouldn't it be addressed? And I'm certainly not saying that the IRA spoke for the majority of the Irish people, they never have since this period.


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## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

Read all of this very interesting and being in Manchester,England catholic , father Irish catholic ! mother english protestant ( her grandfather half French ) , my wife protestant , kids were christened catholic so as to get them into school with a few white christian folk in it so taught about Christmas instead of Eid , really lads I am aithiest no body gives a toss who's what here as for flags burn the feckin lot nobody cares . the issue is global "the have's and the have nots" do you think it could be an issue here in england for the flying of the "butchers apron" as it is seen by many they say as offensive , but who is offended immigrants ? I think the worlds fucked and is now such a small place it has no hope . happy christmas/holidays to you all hope you find peace .


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## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

As for Nazis   come on lads if 2012 for fucks sake who gives a monkys pull


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## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Read all of this very interesting and being in Manchester,England catholic , father Irish catholic ! mother english protestant ( her grandfather half French ) , my wife protestant , kids were christened catholic so as to get them into school with a *few white christian folk* in it so taught about Christmas instead of Eid , really lads I am aithiest no body gives a toss who's what here as for flags burn the feckin lot nobody cares . the issue is global "the have's and the have nots" do you think it could be an issue here in england for the flying of the "butchers apron" as it is seen by many they say as offensive , but who is offended immigrants ? I think the worlds fucked and is now such a small place it has no hope . happy christmas/holidays to you all hope you find peace .


 
Hello Joe. You seem a little confused, old chap. 

I fear your sojourn here will be a brief one, so at least you have one 'like' before you go.


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## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

cheers !!!!


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## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> cheers !!!!


----------



## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> But I'm not equating the two, I merely said that in a thread about the antagonism between the two communities, the subject of IRA collusion with the nazis was likely to come up (which it did) and why shouldn't it be addressed? And I'm certainly not saying that the IRA spoke for the majority of the Irish people, they never have since this period.


 

But you brought it up, and you keep bringing it up and no one is saying it shouldn't be addressed but if you hijack every discussion with it then everytime we talk about anything to do with Ireland and we end up with the 'Nazi' thing then there is no discussion. Talk about this without reference to Nazis, why are there riots because of flag protocol in Belfast in recent days? Discuss.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> Perhaps Liam could tell us whether or not he agrees with your first sentence, because whenever I as much as even imply something similar, he starts jumping up and down and calling me a cunt!


 
That you consistently prove yourself to be a confounded liar surprises no-one.

That you actually seem to _believe_ your contrived confabulations _is_ somewhat sad though.

STT or STFU


----------



## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> Hello Joe. You seem a little confused, old chap.
> 
> I fear your sojourn here will be a brief one, so at least you have one 'like' before you go.


Your prob right , it plays such a little role in my life it's and issue I consider piontless


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

LiamO said:


> That you consistently prove yourself to be a confounded liar surprises no-one.
> 
> That you actually seem to _believe_ your contrived confabulations _is_ somewhat sad though.
> 
> STT or STFU


 
Seems we're all agreed now, except you.

In your case Liam, STFU.


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## LiamO (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Your prob right , it plays such a little role in my life it's and issue I consider piontless


 
joe, this is no place for a discussion about your penis. Any chance you could take this other penis with you when you go?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Read all of this very interesting and being in Manchester,England catholic , father Irish catholic ! mother english protestant ( her grandfather half French ) , my wife protestant , kids were christened catholic so as to get them into school with a few white christian folk in it so taught about Christmas instead of Eid , really lads I am aithiest no body gives a toss who's what here as for flags burn the feckin lot nobody cares . the issue is global "the have's and the have nots" do you think it could be an issue here in england for the flying of the "butchers apron" as it is seen by many they say as offensive , but who is offended immigrants ? I think the worlds fucked and is now such a small place it has no hope . happy christmas/holidays to you all hope you find peace .


You are only a kick in the arse off being an immigrant yourself you fucking tosser.


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Your prob right , it plays such a little role in my life it's and issue I consider piontless


 

Don't give up Joe2369, new to it myself, it's all very interesting, really clever people discussing the issues of the day in an intelligent way. No bullshit here that's for sure! Don't make any jokes until you've read everything, keep yer head down, some of these fuckers are angry and the rest have mental health problems.


----------



## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

Deareg said:


> You are only a kick in the arse off being an immigrant yourself you fucking tosser.


arnt we all ??   just a case of who we can communicate with :/


----------



## Joe2369 (Dec 9, 2012)

Buckaroo said:


> Don't give up Joe2369, new to it myself, it's all very interesting, really clever people discussing the issues of the day in an intelligent way. No bullshit here that's for sure! Don't make any jokes until you've read everything, keep yer head down, some of these fuckers are angry and the rest have mental health problems.


Ya right come across some of saville's victims already


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## Buckaroo (Dec 9, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Ya right come across some of saville's victims already


----------



## toggle (Dec 9, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> But I'm not equating the two, I merely said that in a thread about the antagonism between the two communities, the subject of IRA collusion with the nazis was likely to come up (which it did) and why shouldn't it be addressed? And I'm certainly not saying that the IRA spoke for the majority of the Irish people, they never have since this period.


 

so ti's collusion now, not collaboration. i take it that you have now conceeded that it is impossible for an irish citizen in ireland to have actually collaborated by supporting either side.......


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 9, 2012)

toggle said:


> so ti's collusion now, not collaboration. i take it that you have now conceeded that it is impossible for an irish citizen in ireland to have actually collaborated by supporting either side.......


 
No, despite your previous lecture on how to speak proper, collaboration is in my opinion the word that best describes what we're talking about and collaboration is the word that most commentators on this subject have used as well.

I was merely being diplomatic in your presence.


----------



## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> No, despite your previous lecture on how to speak proper, collaboration is in my opinion the word that best describes what we're talking about and collaboration is the word that most commentators on this subject have used as well.
> 
> I was merely being diplomatic in your presence.


 

because they have the same agenda you do. to continue to promote the idea that britain and not ireland should have had the final say in the actions of irish people.


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## Andrew Hertford (Dec 10, 2012)

My secret agenda has been rumbled, t'is the end for me.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2012)

Kaka Tim said:


> Any thing going down in Maghera in Derry? Its where the missus is from and pretty evenly split between the papists and the prods.


I believe Maghera has been peaceful so far... chatted to a buddy there... though I reckon there will be some small stupid insignafecent demo's there this week.....


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2012)

Jaysus can we get of this historic Russell discussion and 'his so called' colloboration with the Nazis.... The RA needed guns and were very weak during his tenure as 'leader'.... Indeed I believe part of the BS negotions were that the RA would provide 20,000 volunteers for Hitler... all BS and a scam so we could secure weaponry... In Russells time there was a weak army council and he could operate freely...
If people can't recognise the desperation of Irish folk then ( like now) they really need to get clued up..... Oh he got scooped along with other volunteers during this op, which came to nothing......
feck sake u may talk about Gaddafi et al supporting Irish freedom etc.....

Back on topic... gonna be interesting to see how weak the loyalists are now.....


----------



## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

No of course he wasnt a  Nazi collaborator he just got a lift on a fucking u-boat and had meetings with the abwher no defintly a good guy on the side of liberty and democracy.

No wait he was a fucking nazi collaborator who attempted to organise operation to aid the nazis


----------



## LiamO (Dec 10, 2012)

likesfish said:


> No of course he wasnt a Nazi collaborator he just got a lift on a fucking u-boat and had meetings with the abwher no defintly a good guy on the side of liberty and democracy.
> 
> No wait he was a fucking nazi collaborator who attempted to organise operation to aid the nazis


 
perhaps YOU could start the definitive thread on this matter, Likesfish. You at least, unlike the chronic confabulator Andrew, have some balls and the courage of your convictions. 

But please, let this subject lie - it has nothing to do with this thread.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

Exactly.
 Theres a mountain of bullshit on all sides involved.

Brighton townhall isnt flying the union flag and nobody is screaming abuse at the security guards in the normal part of the UK its not an issue .


----------



## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

Just a final word (hopefully) on this issue, Fascism was, and still is, such an evil ideology that I feel that collaboration is an apt word to use for anyone or any government who aids in any way a fascist regime. The IRA's collaboration with Hitler is a very dark stain on the republican movement and should be accepted as so by Republicans.


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## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

What the other side think of it all.


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## rekil (Dec 10, 2012)




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## rekil (Dec 10, 2012)

Everything is better with Dracula.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 10, 2012)

both sides should grow the fuck up! Childish fucking tribal cunts who make life a misery for people who couldn't give a fuck.

CUNTS.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 10, 2012)

both sides love it. like football hooligans love it. gets a chance to mob up and feel part of something. look at the fervor and joy and romance in the thick brain damaged eyes of Rangers and Celtic fans.

CUNTS.


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## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> both sides love it. like football hooligans love it. gets a chance to mob up and feel part of something. look at the fervor and joy and romance in the thick brain damaged eyes of Rangers and Celtic fans.
> 
> CUNTS.


Talk a load of shite much?


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 10, 2012)

plus, y'know, the whole 700 odd years of internecine sectarian violence exacerbated, by meddling external forces. That too.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Talk a load of shite much?


 
they love it. they love the whole problem. utter, utter CUNTs. Both sides.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 10, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> plus, y'know, the whole 700 odd years of internecine sectarian violence exacerbated, by meddling external forces. That too.


 
both sides should grow the fuck up.


----------



## weepiper (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> they love it. they love the whole problem. utter, utter CUNTs. Both sides.


 
horsecrap.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> No, despite your previous lecture on how to speak proper, collaboration is in my opinion the word that best describes what we're talking about and collaboration is the word that most commentators on this subject have used as well.
> 
> I was merely being diplomatic in your presence.


 
Would any decent published academic historian (so not Andrew Roberts or his ilk) do so? I'm betting you can't find even a handful who'd misuse the language in such a way.


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## MillwallShoes (Dec 10, 2012)

pure BIGOTRY.

CUNTS.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

Joe2369 said:


> Ya right *come across* some of saville's victims already


 
Dirty paedo cunt!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

Andrew Hertford said:


> My secret agenda has been rumbled, t'is the end for me.


 
Hardly secret. You're not sharp enough for that.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

Certainly a sub section of the old firm fans cant get enough of it 
 Famine songs / pro ira songs complaing the Huns are sectarian etc etc.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Just a final word (hopefully) on this issue, Fascism was, and still is, such an evil ideology that I feel that collaboration is an apt word to use for anyone or any government who aids in any way a fascist regime. The IRA's collaboration with Hitler is a very dark stain on the republican movement and should be accepted as so by Republicans.


 
The IRA as an organisation didn't collaborate. Elements of the IRA colluded with Nazi agents to further their own war aims, while a greater number of IRA members colluded with their formal enemy and joined the British military on a "hostilities only" basis. Both parties could be said to have acted in an instrumental manner, to serve their own greater purpose.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> both sides love it. like football hooligans love it. gets a chance to mob up and feel part of something. look at the fervor and joy and romance in the thick brain damaged eyes of Rangers and Celtic fans.
> 
> CUNTS.


 
Same could be said of Millwall fans when they spot someone wearing claret and blue.


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## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

weepiper said:


> horsecrap.


 
All over his MillwallShoes.


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## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> both sides should grow the fuck up! Childish fucking tribal cunts who make life a misery for people who couldn't give a fuck.
> 
> CUNTS.


 
from the looks of this current situation, one side has. refusal to recognise this could be construed as evidence of bias


----------



## flypanam (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> both sides should grow the fuck up! Childish fucking tribal cunts who make life a misery for people who couldn't give a fuck.
> 
> CUNTS.


 
It's people who didn't give a fuck in the first place i.e. The British Empire Establishment that has caused all the trouble for everyone else.


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## Sasaferrato (Dec 10, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> Did the IRA comprise the entire Eirean polity then?


 
No, of course not. A significant percentage of the populace, whilst not members, obviously supported their aims though.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 10, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, of course not. A significant percentage of the populace, whilst not members, obviously supported their aims though.


 
"Obviously"? How so?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2012)

Sas is a closet IRA supporter  he sees it as a mass movement supported by a 'significant percentage' of the populace.


----------



## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, of course not. A significant percentage of the populace, whilst not members, obviously supported their aims though.


 

are you trying to claim a significant percentage of the irish population supported the german cause? if so, your evidence for this is?

and please lets not fall into the obvious trap of declaring that irish neutrality or any anti british actions or words should be taken as being pro german. we've moved beyond that kind of propegnda.


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## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

Sasaferrato said:


> No, of course not. A significant percentage of the populace, whilst not members, obviously supported their aims though.


I can't help noticing that while you insist on calling the Irish people to account for some imagined transgression you completely ignore the proven collaboration of the British royal family, the very same royal family that you swore an oath to serve, Did you know about this collaboration before you took this oath?


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## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

Hearing that yet again a number of roads are being blocked, at least one school was forced to stay closed again today and parents are being prevented from collecting their children from others, all catholic by the way.


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## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

God its like a rerun of every othertime 
 just without the numbers have loyalists been dieing off ?
 I guess by the weekend they will have murdered someone

Maybe we could sell the place to the chinese?


----------



## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

likesfish said:


> God its like a rerun of every othertime
> just without the numbers have loyalists been dieing off ?
> I guess by the weekend they will have murdered someone
> 
> Maybe we could sell the place to the chinese?


 
why do you dislike the chenese so much that you think they deserve the loyalists?


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## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

no I just like the idea of fat blokes in tracksuits running from a tank column
  Although some of them could probably stop a tank column not by any act of bravery just by being able to gum up the tracks with there guts


----------



## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

toggle said:


> why do you dislike the chenese so much that you think they deserve the loyalists?


Ok the israelis they could meet there "lost tribe"
   Wasnt there some odder than normal loyalist who claimed ulster scots were the lost tribe of isreal or was that just the english in general?


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## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

i think we need to make a list of who hasn't claimed to be the lost tribe of israel, it would be shorter


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## likesfish (Dec 10, 2012)

The swiss sell them to the swiss they'd have to get jobs tidy the place up and generally wouldnt have time for rioting


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## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2012)

Kinda funny recent graffitee appearing in me wee town....


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Dec 10, 2012)




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## framed (Dec 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Just a final word (hopefully) on this issue, Fascism was, and still is, such an evil ideology that I feel that collaboration is an apt word to use for anyone or any government who aids in any way a fascist regime. The IRA's collaboration with Hitler is a very dark stain on the republican movement and should be accepted as so by Republicans.


 
The words are not really that important imho, however, the point that seems to be missed here is the political significance of a (revised) historical narrative led by left-revisionist 'historians'.

The largely insignificant 'collaborationist' role played by Irish republicans during WW2 is once again being hyped beyond its actual political importance, only this time around the revisionist viewpoint is led, not by the Cruiser or Ruth Dudley-Edwards, but by a left-wing 'doctor of letters' - Brian Hanley - in his recent analysis of the period and Sean Russell's role as alleged 'Nazi collaborator'.

The promotion of a left-revisionist interpretation of Irish history is no more honest than that of its right-wing counterparts. It is entirely subjective and it is imho a crude attempt to revise historical events in order to justify the good doctor's previous analyses of various periods in Irish history. Most notably it is a re-interpretation of Irish history along simplistic left-right paradigms as contained in his volume on the history of the Workers Party (Stickies) - _The Lost Revolution_.

If Hanley's revisionism is to be justified it has to present the left and right within republicanism in the crudest terms... and to reiterate that it has always been thus. From the foundations, to the splits over the treaty, to the 1930's, through the war and even including the splits between the Provies and the Sticks; this is right v left, _fascists v anti-fascists_... simple innit!?!

However, _as any fule kno_, history is a wee bit more complicated than that...

There used to be a sketch series on BBC Scotland called Chewing The Fat. One regular sketch featured someone being shown around a new office or building site by a co-worker whose introduction to the newbie consisted of him pointing at various other people on the site (or office) and referring to them as... _"Wank, wank, good guy... wank, good guy, etc etc."_

The left-revisionist view of Irish history appears to be based on a similar concept to that of the Scottish comedy show... _"Nazi, Nazi, good guy, Nazi, good guy... Nazi, Nazi, etc..."_


----------



## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)

framed said:


> The words are not really that important imho, however, the point that seems to be missed here is the political significance of a (revised) historical narrative led by left-revisionist 'historians'.
> 
> The largely insignificant 'collaborationist' role played by Irish republicans during WW2 is once again being hyped beyond its actual political importance, only this time around the revisionist viewpoint is led, not by the Cruiser or Ruth Dudley-Edwards, but by a left-wing 'doctor of letters' - Brian Hanley - in his recent analysis of the period and Sean Russell's role as alleged 'Nazi collaborator'.
> 
> ...


 
Framed, I am only referring to certain posters on this thread and had not even thought about that article when addressing them, I did not even know about it until fairly recently, I know and have pointed out that it was a small group of individuals and happened at a time when the IRA was in a very weak state and if it had not been so it is unlikely that Russell and co would have been able to act the way that they did.


----------



## framed (Dec 10, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Framed, I am only referening to certain posters on this thread and had not even thought about that article when addressing them, I did not even know about it until fairly recently, I know and have pointed out that it was a small group of individuals and happened at a time when the IRA was in a very weak state and if it had not been so it is unlikely that Russell and co would have been able to act the way that they did.


 
I realise that mate and I wasn't having a go at anything in particular that you wrote. I was venting a bit of frustration at previous posts (on here and elsewhere) that tend to go along with a full revision of republican history in order to make this _'IRA=Nazis'_ shit fit better with their already politically skewed interpretation of history.


----------



## toggle (Dec 10, 2012)

I always interpreted that as 'anyone but the brits', some breton nationalists flirted with the nazis as well on the grounds of 'anyone but the french'. the supprise to me is how few did this.

i've looked at ths from a british perspective which seems to be thinking more of donald sutherland than sean russell.


----------



## clickity click (Dec 10, 2012)

toggle said:


> I always interpreted that as 'anyone but the brits',


 
This is a recurring theme in Irish history.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 10, 2012)




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## weltweit (Dec 10, 2012)

Nasty again tonight, police car petrol bombed.


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## Sue (Dec 10, 2012)

Discussing this on R4 just now. Apparently it's an attack by 'Sinn Fein-IRA' on the Protestant way of life and a disproportionate amount of money has been spent on Catholic areas.


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## LiamO (Dec 10, 2012)

MillwallShoes said:


> both sides should grow the fuck up! Childish fucking tribal cunts who make life a misery for people who couldn't give a fuck.
> 
> CUNTS.


 
Both sides????!!!???


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2012)

Well...I think it's probably true that the other side has something to do with the flag being taken down...they should say something calming, instead of just letting it get worse.


----------



## Sue (Dec 10, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Well...I think it's probably true that the other side has something to do with the flag being taken down...*they should say something calming*, instead of just letting it get worse.


 
There's an idea...


----------



## Kuso (Dec 10, 2012)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Kinda funny recent graffitee appearing in me wee town....
> View attachment 26025


 
they spelt 'fleg' wrong


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## Kuso (Dec 10, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Nasty again tonight, police car petrol bombed.


 
probably the most widespread it's been from what I've heard/ seen


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## Kuso (Dec 10, 2012)

http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loyalists-against-Democracy/439581669430547


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## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2012)

Kuso said:


> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loyalists-against-Democracy/439581669430547


They don't look angry, they look scared and worried.


----------



## Andrew Hertford (Dec 10, 2012)

LiamO said:


> perhaps YOU could start the definitive thread on this matter, Likesfish. You at least, unlike the chronic confabulator Andrew, have some balls and the courage of your convictions.
> 
> But please, let this subject lie - it has nothing to do with this thread.


 
No it doesn't Liam, so please do just that.

I didn't come to this thread with the intention of even mentioning the nazi collaboration, but when I did arrive here, I find that YOU are not only already talking about it yourself, but have called me a 'troll' by name BEFORE I'VE EVEN POSTED ANYTHING! 

Who's the troll here?

Great stuff, keep it up. And what's this obsession with my balls darling?


----------



## two sheds (Dec 10, 2012)

Kuso said:


> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loyalists-against-Democracy/439581669430547


 
Great page. I like:


> Its our way or da highway, da A1 to be exact, take da bus and go home if you dont wanna live in an undemocratic northern ireland
> 
> 
> Cavan MckeeI'm sorry I couldn't understand this, who's da are you talking about?
> ...


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## Kuso (Dec 10, 2012)

two sheds said:


> Great page. I like:


 
Facebook has had some hilarious stuff posted on it over the last week or so- makes a change from what people had for breakfast anyway


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## DexterTCN (Dec 10, 2012)

Pretty much looks like the rangers forum, until you-know-who was banned.


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## Kuso (Dec 10, 2012)

https://soundcloud.com/groove-chicknball-holmes/chicknball-prank-call-to-no


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## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

Kuso said:


> they spelt 'fleg' wrong


 
That's how they say it.


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## Kuso (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> That's how they say it.


 
That was the joke, as it's spelt 'flag' in the pic...


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## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Well...I think it's probably true that the other side has something to do with the flag being taken down...they should say something calming, instead of just letting it get worse.


 
Just who is the 'other side', you buck eejit? 

The Alliance Party (aka the Unionist Cheese & Wine Party)? cos they are the ones who have borne the brunt of the protesters hate and vitriol living, as they do, in the same areas (albeit the slightly posher ones).

To attempt to muddy the waters by playing the 'one sides as bad as the other' card on this occasion is ludicrous - but I suspect you already know that perfectly well.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

Kuso said:


> That was the joke, as it's spelt 'flag' in the pic...


 
oops!


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2012)

posit: if unionist violence and hoo-harrery scores 'victories' and this snowballs and pulls in more unionist violence, re ignites uvf/uda passions and in turn raises the catlicks where the fuck does that leave the GFA? A treaty holds so long as the peoples who entered into it hold to it. If this spirals it would be worth what it is written upon.

liklihood of this spiraling, or last hurrah for a vocal splinter of irish prods?


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

last hurrah... raging against the dying light... also driving a (IMO) definitive wedge between ordinary prods, who are embarrassed to fuck about the whole thing and lumpen loyalists (god love them).

Puts me in mind of the last scene from the film 'The Field' where Bull Mccabe is attempting to beat back the tide with his stick.


----------



## Kuso (Dec 11, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> posit: if unionist violence and hoo-harrery scores 'victories' and this snowballs and pulls in more unionist violence, re ignites uvf/uda passions and in turn raises the catlicks where the fuck does that leave the GFA? A treaty holds so long as the peoples who entered into it hold to it. If this spirals it would be worth what it is written upon.
> 
> liklihood of this spiraling, or last hurrah for a vocal splinter of irish prods?


 
I dunno, speaking to people who I wouldn't have thought held particularly staunch unionist/ loyalist views they seem awfully upset- "they've gone too far this time" etc etc.  Who exactly "they" are is a whole different kettle of fish though.

But considering the long standing loyalist tradition of disrupting people trying to go about their business in their own areas, burning cars belonging to people to live in their 'own community' etc the violence and rioting doesn't seem to have very much support.  Or even the 'peaceful protests' as everyone knows what they descend into.  It was a fairly quiet summer/ marching season, perhaps this is just the prods trying get in their wee bit of 'recreational rioting' that they missed out on over the summer.

I'd say it'll get worse this week, peak at the weekend, then die down as people realise it's nearly Christmas.  There's been little in the way of 'antagonism' from Republicans- no 'counter-protests' or anything like that, that I'm aware of anyway, so it's just really directed at the police.

However, like all these situations, all it would take is for a catholic to be attacked walking home or whatever and it could easily flare up.  I think dissident republicans are just waiting for an excuse...


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> posit: if unionist violence and hoo-harrery scores 'victories' and this snowballs and pulls in more unionist violence, re ignites uvf/uda passions and in turn raises the catlicks where the fuck does that leave the GFA? A treaty holds so long as the peoples who entered into it hold to it. If this spirals it would be worth what it is written upon.
> 
> liklihood of this spiraling, or last hurrah for a vocal splinter of irish prods?


 
30 years ago, any move like removing the flag and you woudln't have seen small numbers out to complain, you would have seen thousands, every bloody unionist able to walk out onto the streets would have been protesting. think back to paisley's 'ulster says never' speach. don't know the exact numbers there, but the numbers out to protest tonight would have been lost in the crowd back then.

they've taken down the flag, the bloody flag. the flag being enough of a big deal that they had to set up a seperate discussion pannel on flags while negotiating good friday, cause no one was going to compromise on it. it was always gonna kick off when this happened, but the fact it's small numbers shows how far unionism has moved fowards. this lot will piss off their neighbours, who get that the republicans have compromised instead of taking the line of the complete removal of the flag, that they could have done (and perhaps wanted to do considering what tht flag means to them).

wring a chicken's neck and it will flap and kick for a while until it's body realises ti's dead. this is the flapping and kicking of hard line unionism, it's dead, it's just the twats out there throwing bricks haven't realised that yet. n


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 11, 2012)

Kuso said:


> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loyalists-against-Democracy/439581669430547


 
Love to think this is a pisstake but I went to school with people like this...


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> They don't look angry, they look scared and worried.


 
To me they look all three.

I feel for working class loyalists. Unionist politicians have portrayed every single reform of the last 50 years as a betrayal, as a defeat and thus a source of rage. Loyalists have traditionally been shamelessly manipulated and used as a pet Rottweiler by the fur-coat unionists - brought out periodically and whipped up into a frenzy to bark and growl at the Fenians and the brits whenever the scent of 'betrayal' is in the air.

Then slapped firmly back into line afterwards where they continue to be treated like shit by their 'betters'.

Many, many Republicans are just as disillusioned with the 'Peace Process'; with the Stalinistic tendencies of Sinn Féin; with the constant dilution of 'republican values' that engaging with unionists entails; and with the shady backroom deals constantly being brokered with the DUP (eg. the Girdwood barracks housing issue).

The difference is that the republican leadership has consistently promoted flexibility, dialogue and compromise _as an asset_ rather than a betrayal, as a sign of strength rather than weakness. Thus they are constantly preparing their own constituency for change. Thus most shifts (from decommissioning to shaking hands with the queen) are - after an indeterminate period of huffing and puffing, of outrage and 'not an inch' - ultimately greeted with a shrug of resignation rather than a violent backlash.

Some call this betrayal, more call it leadership. Whether you agree with this strategy or not is not the point here. You cannot, with any degree of seriousness and honestly, deny the effectiveness of it and their ability to carry this off (as distasteful as it may be for some) without large-scale feuding and mayhem is astonishing in terms of the last 100 years of Irish history.

Unionism has never had any leaders prepared to address the 'other community', to project compromise as a strength and to face down the more reactionary elements.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 11, 2012)

To be fair loyalism/unionism was flexible and pragmatic home rule could have worked or an all ireland state could have worked etc etc.
  Compromise flexibility and dialouge not really in the Unionist vocabulary.

Republicans never really appeared to have a satisfactory answer of how the unionists would be accommodated into ireland.
 Unionists tried to avoid the fact that catholics exsisted or had any problems with protetant rule.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 11, 2012)

Prods down to 48% of the norths population. Caths up to 45%. 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20677515


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

Red Storm said:


> Prods down to 48% of the norths population. Caths up to 45%.
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20677515


 
Which will only add to the loyalists' sense of impending doom.

Nationalists are in the majority of four of the six counties - and Belfast is now pretty evenly split.

There is also a long-standing and accelerating 'brain-drain' of young unionists. The northern universities have been 'taken over by taigs' and a disproportionate number of prods attend Uni in Britain. Most never go back.

The once die-hard unionist RUC has been displaced. "You know you are getting old when policemen start sounding... catholic"  Seriously, you have no idea the amount of (impotent and irrational) rage that encountering a cop called Finbarr or Fionnuala can induce in loyalists.

Ideally, the leadership should come from within loyalist communities... but they have an awful record of driving out anybody who dares to be different. David Ervine was on record as saying many times that the biggest threat to his life consistently came from loyalists rather than republicans.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Well...I think it's probably true that the other side has something to do with the flag being taken down...they should say something calming, instead of just letting it get worse.


Like anything Sinn fein could say will calm those silly bastards down!


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)




----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2012)

weltweit said:


> Nasty again tonight, police car petrol bombed.


 
What's nasty about that? It's cold out! Nothing like a nice open fire for staying warm!


----------



## ViolentPanda (Dec 11, 2012)

Sue said:


> Discussing this on R4 just now. Apparently it's an attack by 'Sinn Fein-IRA' on the Protestant way of life and a disproportionate amount of money has been spent on Catholic areas.


 
I'm afraid that if anyone uses the formulation "Sinn Fein-IRA" I automatically switch off because it's obvious that the person speaking/writing is either ignorant, mendacious or both.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)




----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)




----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

There  are wise words in his ranting


----------



## seeformiles (Dec 11, 2012)

And while the "superprods" are out burning stuff, they're missing some beautiful sights off the North Coast:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-17817085


----------



## cemertyone (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> The once die-hard unionist RUC has been displaced. "You know you are getting old when policemen start sounding... catholic"  Seriously, you have no idea the amount of (impotent and irrational) rage that encountering a cop called Finbarr or Fionnuala can induce in loyalists.
> .


 
I was stopped at Belfast city airport by two P.S.N.I officers called Bronagh and Grainnie...
They where doing a drugs search..so i says to the both of them "jesus girls those are queer Irish names you
got on your badges there"..i take it your not from Sandy Row..they were not amused.....


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> There are wise words in his ranting


This time, I am not convinced. The main thrust of his rant appeared to me to be "The British need to sling their fucking hooks!" which although one view, would not get rid of all the Northern Irish who identify as British.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> There are wise words in his ranting


 
The bloke is a grade A loon, having his support will probably do more to discredit the cause of a united free Ireland than anything else in the last 60 years.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The bloke is a grade A loon, having his support will probably do more to discredit the cause of a united free Ireland than anything else in the last 60 years.


 
I know he is a loon (hence the smilie) but even a broken clock is right twice a day


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The bloke is a grade A loon, having his support will probably do more to discredit the cause of a united free Ireland than anything else in the last 60 years.


 
i think little things like blowing up enniskillen and omagh might just top it tbh.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

weltweit said:


> This time, I am not convinced. The main thrust of his rant appeared to me to be "The British need to sling their fucking hooks!" which although one view, would not get rid of all the Northern Irish who identify as British.


 
this time? You mean you found his rants compelling before???!

I think the thrust of his argument is that the english government should 'sling their hook'... thereby removing the backing of the big brother which has enabled the spoilt unionist brat to behave like... well a spoilt brat. Thus compelling unionists to engage with the people they share the island with


----------



## weltweit (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> this time? You mean you found his rants compelling before???!


 
 I have only seen about 4 or 5 ... there is more rant than substance tbf 



LiamO said:


> I think the thrust of his argument is that the english government should 'sling their hook'... thereby removing the backing of the big brother which has enabled the spoilt unionist brat to behave like... well a spoilt brat. Thus compelling unionists to engage with the people they share the island with


 
They just have to learn to get along.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 11, 2012)

Well theres just one tiny problem with that.
 The fucking loyalists this is the result of not flying the flag every day and the cretins actually have some support fr there antics.
 Imagine if reunification happened tomorrow it woud be a total nightmare


----------



## NA12 (Dec 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Fuck off you're on the wrong boards here you Fenian twat. Go and have a chicken supper in the cell block Bobby - this is a Loyal board.


 
Oh go bow down to your retarded queen in BRITAIN! You loyalist git


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

weltweit said:


> They just have to learn to get along.


 

But that's the whole point. They have NEVER had to 'learn to get along'... previously they always had the british ruling class to back them up.

This is kindergarten stuff really... Now Billy... Sammy... don't be silly... you have to learn to SHARE (the island)


----------



## LiamO (Dec 11, 2012)

NA12 said:


> Oh go bow down to your retarded queen in BRITAIN! You loyalist git


 
is this the same buck eejit - with the irony/sarcasm by-pass as the other night?

CBA looking tbh.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Well theres just one tiny problem with that.
> The fucking loyalists this is the result of not flying the flag every day and the cretins actually have some support fr there antics.
> Imagine if reunification happened tomorrow it woud be a total nightmare


 
absolutely. but this is showing how much less of a nightmare their behavior is becoming. i was looking last night at someone saying that england might be best to pull out of the union now, because the last one out got lumbered with ulster. they are coming to terms with the fact tht no bugger wants them. eventually they will realise this is because they have been behaving like spoilt children. when they grow the fuck up, they get freinds to play with


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> is this the same buck eejit - with the irony/sarcasm by-pass as the other night?
> 
> CBA looking tbh.


 

yep


----------



## NA12 (Dec 11, 2012)

LiamO said:


> is this the same buck eejit - with the irony/sarcasm by-pass as the other night?
> 
> CBA looking tbh.


 
aye and i'm not afraid to burn your flag any day


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 11, 2012)

NA12 said:


> aye and i'm not afraid to burn your flag any day


 
You wouldn't say that to BillyMac's face


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)

If he is new here then he is not going to get any in jokes, ffs give him a break.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)

Catholics driving in and out of Ligoneil are still being attacked while the police stand and do fuckall.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 11, 2012)

Anyone on FB, take a look at the way the Police react to a few fella's having a laugh and compare it to the way that the bastards are standing back and watching while Loyalist block roads and attack people trying to get in and out of Ligoneil.

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=477520222291908

eta, http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=XbGm_7Gg3Ow


----------



## FUCK ALL HUN!!! (Dec 11, 2012)

shut the fuck up u stupid hun fucker go back to england u prick ireland was ours first so gyfr!


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2012)

dude, really


----------



## FUCK ALL HUN!!! (Dec 11, 2012)

go back to england then


----------



## weepiper (Dec 11, 2012)

FUCK ALL HUN!!! said:


> go back to england then


 
awesome.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 11, 2012)

FUCK ALL HUN!!! said:


> go back to england then


 

I am english, in england and from brit soldier stock as well. You aren't helping you know. In fact I suspect you are a duplicate account for that other bloke. or his mate. Either way, calm down. Peace and love.


----------



## FUCK ALL HUN!!! (Dec 11, 2012)

fuck all huns!!


----------



## weepiper (Dec 11, 2012)

You could at least have spelt your username correctly


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 11, 2012)

gyfr?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 11, 2012)

insert Gene Wilder Willy Wonka pic here


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 11, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> gyfr?


 
it's the Gaelic


----------



## framed (Dec 11, 2012)

FUCK ALL HUN!!! said:


> fuck all huns!!


 
...and after you've fucked them all, a trip to the clinic might be in order for you, Mr Hilarious.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 11, 2012)

Surely he can't fuck _all_ of them?   The logistics involved...


----------



## bendeus (Dec 11, 2012)

The median IQ of this board has just dropped significantly.


----------



## framed (Dec 11, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> it's the Gaelic


 
Gyfr... It's gaelic for twat.


----------



## framed (Dec 11, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Surely he can't fuck _all_ of them? The logistics involved...


 
I say, LET HIM HAVE A GO!

Never stand in the way of a man and his dream...


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

framed said:


> Gyfr... It's gaelic for twat.


 
learn something new everyday here.


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

still don't have a clue how to pronounce that though.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 11, 2012)

toggle said:


> still don't have a clue how to pronounce that though.


twat


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

absolutely


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Dec 11, 2012)

He actually reported someone else's post, too


----------



## toggle (Dec 11, 2012)

pmsl


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 11, 2012)

FUCK ALL HUN!!! said:


> shut the fuck up u stupid hun fucker ....


Consider the post and the name.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 12, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Consider the post and the name.


 
I am not convinced _at all_ about FAH's fenian bona fides.

I particularly don't like the way he bastardises the perfectly descriptive term 'Hun' into a term of sectarian abuse.

I suspect he may well be indeed be one... a Hun... and a troll.


----------



## JimW (Dec 12, 2012)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> it's the Gaelic


Very like the German, very guttural languages the pair of them.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 12, 2012)

LiamO said:


> I am not convinced _at all_ about FAH's fenian bona fides.
> 
> I particularly don't like the way he bastardises the perfectly descriptive term 'Hun' into a term of sectarian abuse.
> 
> I suspect he may well be indeed be one... a Hun... and a troll.


   I cant understand how anyone could think using the term hun is anything other than sectarian name calling?????


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 12, 2012)

likesfish said:


> I cant understand how anyone could think using the term hun is anything other than sectarian name calling?????


Sectarihun even


----------



## krink (Dec 12, 2012)

bignose1 said:


> Sectarihun even


 
hunbelievable p-hunnery


----------



## krink (Dec 12, 2012)

don't encourage the offensive irish puns or this thread will get bog-trotted down with them


----------



## rekil (Dec 12, 2012)

JimW said:


> Very like the German, very guttural languages the pair of them.


Myles away.


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2012)

I guess most people are aware of this 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/12/pat-finucane-murder-review-published

But see as we people are talking about 'collaboration' it seems rather suitable.


----------



## cemertyone (Dec 12, 2012)

Big meeting last night in sandy row..( i went incognito) and the general consensus was that it was
time to cool things down as the condemnation of the violence was getting in the way of the overall
"attack by SF on our culture"...etc etc...
The level of discourse was pretty poor..kinda scatter gun approach and a real victimhood mentality was the norm....."there taking over our wee country" was the general view and "we had better be ready to stand and fight" etc etc...
quite sad to see actually....
More reports from the front line to follow....


----------



## likesfish (Dec 12, 2012)

redsquirrel said:


> I guess most people are aware of this
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2012/dec/12/pat-finucane-murder-review-published
> 
> But see as we people are talking about 'collaboration' it seems rather suitable.


 Well as nobody apart from the family have seen let alone read te report at t moment.


----------



## bignose1 (Dec 12, 2012)

krink said:


> don't encourage the offensive irish puns or this thread will get bog-trotted down with them


I thought it was worth a punt....as an aside my favourite place in Donegal is Pundoran.
Edited cos it was shit


----------



## redsquirrel (Dec 12, 2012)

So? @likefish

It's a known fact that the British security services collaborated with Loyalist paramilitary groups to murder Finucane.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 12, 2012)

I don't believe they didn't know who the shankhill butchers were either


----------



## krink (Dec 12, 2012)

Kuso said:


> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Loyalists-against-Democracy/439581669430547


 
reading that page now - it is hilarious. some excellent trolling going on.


----------



## DaveCinzano (Dec 12, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Well as nobody apart from the family have seen let alone read te report at t moment.


The report is available on the Pat Finucane Review website:

Executive Summary
Volume 1 (HTML)
Volume 2 (PDFs)


----------



## likesfish (Dec 12, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> I don't believe they didn't know who the shankhill butchers were either


  Well they arrested and charged most of them. they knew who most members of the IRA were proving it in a court of law rather harder.
 The Britsh never went full mossad / cia phonenix programme thank fuck or milltown would be over flowing.
 Pat pissed off members of the ruc special branch and they gave the uvf his name fulton may or may not have mentioned this too his handlers if your agent stops every murder you dont have an agent anymore.


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 12, 2012)

seems like finacunes family aren't happy at all.


----------



## cemertyone (Dec 12, 2012)

likesfish said:


> Well they arrested and charged most of them. they knew who most members of the IRA were proving it in a court of law rather harder.
> The Britsh never went full mossad / cia phonenix programme thank fuck or milltown would be over flowing.
> Pat pissed off members of the ruc special branch and they gave the uvf his name fulton may or may not have mentioned this too his handlers if your agent stops every murder you dont have an agent anymore.


 #
This is brillant.... and i would expect nothing less from you....75% of the loyalist killings where directed by british agents withing the uvf/uda..organisied by mi5 and the FRU (lead by Br.gorden Kerr..where still chasing that bastard he will never spend a day at peace).no matter what his diplomatic satus says...
the finuncanes where neighbours of mine in lenadoon and Br kerr needs to know that despite the peace process hes a hunted man....
And despite all his "diplomatic" activities...hes a dead man walking....


----------



## audiotech (Dec 12, 2012)

Is Ernesto back? Oh he's gone. Pity.


----------



## cemertyone (Dec 12, 2012)

audiotech said:


> Is Ernesto back? Oh he's gone. Pity.


 

Of course what someone like you numbnuts ...has no idea about was what we went through at the beheast of the British military establishment...our entire estates turned into fortifired zones where you could not even walk the street without some cunt from newcastle ( some poor ignornat fucker that couldn`t even spell your name)...stopping you and questioning you about what street you where from etc etc.....
but of course people like you would prefer to forget all that and sure lets celebrate the dunkirk spirt........and forget your troops killings people in Iraq..afganistan..Ireland and every where else you had your nasty little foot print....
oh on ward and forward to wotton basset.........


----------



## Deareg (Dec 12, 2012)

The bastards are once again being allowed to block roads across Belfast during the evening rush hour.


----------



## framed (Dec 12, 2012)

It's a fcuking joke how the 'protests' of these arseholes are allowed to develop without intervention of any kind... until its too late!


----------



## LiamO (Dec 12, 2012)

Anybody know what happened at stormount today?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 12, 2012)

The cunts just can't help themselves.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 12, 2012)

Yes, but that rule is only supposed to apply to fenians and liberals... and anyway our britishness is under attack


----------



## framed (Dec 12, 2012)




----------



## Deareg (Dec 12, 2012)

I love how Loyalists are claiming that they are protesting about the butchers apron being taken down because their fathers or grand fathers fought or died for it. More Irish Catholics fought and died for that fucking rag than 6 county protestants.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 12, 2012)

and the four VC's awarded were all to taigs too IIRC.


----------



## framed (Dec 13, 2012)

Isn't it just typical of those fenian bassas to be brave too...


----------



## DotCommunist (Dec 13, 2012)

likesfish said:


> *Well they arrested and charged most of them.* they knew who most members of the IRA were proving it in a court of law rather harder.
> The Britsh never went full mossad / cia phonenix programme thank fuck or milltown would be over flowing.
> Pat pissed off members of the ruc special branch and they gave the uvf his name fulton may or may not have mentioned this too his handlers if your agent stops every murder you dont have an agent anymore.


 

yes after a victim managed to escape death. There were fucking months when the killings happened when the shankhill community kept schtum out of fear but knew. You recon the state agencies didn't know also, given how riddled the loyalist and unionist communities were with informants? bollocks.

they let it slide.


----------



## LiamO (Dec 13, 2012)

not just riddled with informants but also riddled with _wannabe_ informants.

From all accounts the brits had to work hard on 'turning' republicans... whereas many loyalists were voluntary walk-ins.


----------



## framed (Dec 13, 2012)

.


----------



## connollyist (Dec 13, 2012)

I'm sure I get blasted for sectarianism by those who don't read the below or realise what it's based on..

They took it down from the mast, Irish traitors
The fleg we Loyalists claim.
It can never belong ta Free Staters,
For we all support Scotland's Shame.

We have murdered both catholic and protestant freedom fighters,
We have butchered from the shankill road.
Our hands with their blood are all gory,
From doing the dirty work of the foe.

But we stand with Cromwell, King Billy and Paisley,
With conviction some of us are as bigoted as old.
We'll overplay the English connection,
Till they leave our wee country out in the cold.

So leave to those who are willing,
To uphold it against equality, democracy and peace.
Our masters they bade us to do killing
For the Queen and Westminster's tyranny never* will cease.

*Never! Never! NEVER!


----------



## cemertyone (Dec 13, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I love how Loyalists are claiming that they are protesting about the butchers apron being taken down because their fathers or grand fathers fought or died for it. More Irish Catholics fought and died for that fucking rag than 6 county protestants.


 
Strangley enough my dad was one of them..he served in the british army in Pal (before it became Isreal) and aden and oman (with those nasty special boys to fight the Com insurgancey there) and he`s the only man i know on the Falls Road with a "god save the queen" tatto...


----------



## connollyist (Dec 13, 2012)

you've taken the Ronnie Bunting Jr route yerself then I take it?


----------



## flypanam (Dec 13, 2012)

likesfish said:


> The Britsh never went full mossad / cia phonenix programme thank fuck or milltown would be over flowing.


 
The whole Shoot To Kill scenario would suggest otherwise.

UDA and UVF campaigns were state directed terrorism.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 13, 2012)

Except that was less than 30 people
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phoenix_Program 
Something like that in Ni would be roughly 2000 deaths!
Practically doubling the death tool.
 Just because somethings bad humans can always make it worse.


----------



## flypanam (Dec 13, 2012)

Except the Phoenix program was waged in Vietnam. Shoot to kill was waged on what (for now) was considered 'British' territory, and the action ie assassination carried out on Irish Republicans who under British law were British subjects.


----------



## likesfish (Dec 13, 2012)

Who were running around in organised groups killing other british subjects your point?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Dec 13, 2012)

It is perfectly legitimate for a capitalist state to behave in that way, within its own paradigm.

However it is also perfectly legitimate for people with a grievance against the way it has behaved to challenge the behaviour and to seek recompense in some way, if they can prove it.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 13, 2012)

DotCommunist said:


> yes after a victim managed to escape death. There were fucking months when the killings happened when the shankhill community kept schtum out of fear but knew. You recon the state agencies didn't know also, given how riddled the loyalist and unionist communities were with informants? bollocks.
> 
> they let it slide.


They did not arrest most of them, even of the gang you are probably thinking of, Lenny Murphy's, many of them went unpunished, their were in fact other butcher gangs completely separate to his doing the same thing.


----------



## audiotech (Dec 13, 2012)

cemertyone said:


> Of course what someone like you numbnuts ...has no idea about was what we went through at the beheast of the British military establishment...our entire estates turned into fortifired zones where you could not even walk the street without some cunt from newcastle ( some poor ignornat fucker that couldn`t even spell your name)...stopping you and questioning you about what street you where from etc etc.....
> but of course people like you would prefer to forget all that and sure lets celebrate the dunkirk spirt........and forget your troops killings people in Iraq..afganistan..Ireland and every where else you had your nasty little foot print....
> oh on ward and forward to wotton basset.........



Eh? What's all that to do with the post I made?

My family, fathers side, are Irish (Republic) btw and I know full well the brutality of the British state.


----------



## toggle (Dec 13, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I love how Loyalists are claiming that they are protesting about the butchers apron being taken down because their fathers or grand fathers fought or died for it. More Irish Catholics fought and died for that fucking rag than 6 county protestants.


 

shhhhhhhhhh, more of those facts will only confuse them.

I think i can sort of get hlding onto the past like this.  they are loyal to an ideal that no longer exists, part of a country where most of the other inhabitants think they are a bad joke. most of their identity is based on who they aren't and who they hate. their identity has been deliberately manipulated by a succession of power hungry bastards to create that hatred and without that, there isn't a lot left to tell them who they are.


----------



## shifting gears (Dec 13, 2012)

You do have to marvel at the not so delicious irony of recent events concerning NI - while the hardcore loyalists have their last hurrahs, over the (contextually) fairly trivial issue of the removal of their flag, we've got Cameron standing in Parliament fully admitting a large degree of collusion between loyalist paramilitaries and the British state during the height of The Troubles; a collusion that actually lead to an innocent lawyer's demise (amongst others). As yet, no enquiry ordered. Surely the Republican community now have reasonable grounds to take to the streets and have their protests while blocking roads in central Belfast during rush hour etc?


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2012)

Deareg said:


> I love how Loyalists are claiming that they are protesting about the butchers apron being taken down because their fathers or grand fathers fought or died for it. More Irish Catholics fought and died for that fucking rag than 6 county protestants.


Was there a difference in ratio?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 13, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Was there a difference in ratio?


Even ratio wise more Irish Catholics fought and died.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2012)

OK, do you have some idea of the ratio/numbers stuff - I don't have a clue.   I'm not disputing it but I'd be interested to know.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 13, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> OK, do you have some idea of the ratio/numbers stuff - I don't have a clue. I'm not disputing it but I'd be interested to know.


Not off the top of my head, I read quite a bit about it a few years ago, I am hopeless at searching for stuff on the web or I would have a look for you myself.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Not off the top of my head, I read quite a bit about it a few years ago, I am hopeless at searching for stuff on the web or I would have a look for you myself.


No probs.


----------



## framed (Dec 13, 2012)

Many Protestant workers in the Belfast shipyards were excused from military service because they worked in a key industry that was crucial to the 'war effort'. It was the same in the Clydeside shipyards as in Belfast.

There's a myth that grew up after the war about Catholics deserting Glasgow and Belfast for Donegal in order to avoid military service, but the truth is that most did not avoid serving in the army and, if you take Ireland as a whole, where thousands from the Free State signed up for the British Army in WW2, I think _deareg_ is probably right about proportionality.


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 13, 2012)

Makes sense.  My papa didn't serve in WWII because he was a game-keeper and farming was an exempting job as well.   That's what they told me, anyway.   I was 8.


----------



## framed (Dec 13, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> Makes sense. My papa didn't serve in WWII because he was a game-keeper and farming was an exempting job as well. That's what they told me, anyway. I was 8.


 
My paternal (Protestant) grandad avoided war service for all sorts of spurious reasons, I always reckoned he was a shirker... He was a bit of a wide boy being a street bookie for a while... a bit of a glesga spiv.

My ma's dad (also a Protestant) was well up for it, he'd have still been in the army in his dotage if they'd allowed it. He not only loved being in the army, he also seemed to thoroughly enjoy the war, he never stopped telling feckin' stories about his escapades.


----------



## toggle (Dec 14, 2012)

To give them their due, the ulster volunteers didn't aviod service and got hit pretty badly.


----------



## framed (Dec 14, 2012)

toggle said:


> To give them their due, the ulster volunteers didn't aviod service and got hit pretty badly.


 
WW1 doesn't count, the fodder signed up. Republicans and socialists, in general, did not.

Ma war, ma rules....


----------



## Kaka Tim (Dec 14, 2012)

My Irish grandad joined the American Army in WW1 because he didn't want to fight under the British flag. He ended up being a dispatch rider on a Harley Davidson.


----------



## toggle (Dec 14, 2012)

this is what i love about these threads on urban, every time there is one, someone tells another part of the story.


----------



## toggle (Dec 14, 2012)

framed said:


> WW1 doesn't count, the fodder signed up. Republicans and socialists, in general, did not.
> 
> Ma war, ma rules....


 
nods. but from what i can recall, these are the issues over which the modern divide and the ulster protestant identity really grew. dosen't matter what actually happened, cause they really beieve that they stayed loyal and died while the irish rebelled. you're fighting against a mythology they have created to support who they are. the truth isn't all that relavent to them


----------



## Deareg (Dec 15, 2012)

Fuckin hardcore.


----------



## Red Storm (Dec 15, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Fuckin hardcore.




What's the t-shirt he's got on?


----------



## Deareg (Dec 15, 2012)

Can't make it out but looks like it might be a flute band t-shirt.


----------



## framed (Dec 15, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Fuckin hardcore.





Jeez, that whiskey is good, I canny even remember being there!


----------



## framed (Dec 15, 2012)

International solidarity pouring in for the 'fleg' protests...

scottish-loyalists-to-protest-at-belfast-flag-move

The Scottish Loyalists are defending the 'fleg' too, so's they are. 


Note the comment from the liberal chump at the 'anti-sectarian' charity Nil By Mouth.
He might as well be saying, _'It's okay to be a bigot, just so long as you're a nice bigot...'  _


----------



## connollyist (Dec 15, 2012)

framed said:


> Jeez, that whiskey is good, I canny even remember being there!


I thought that was just your evil twin...?


----------



## framed (Dec 15, 2012)

connollyist said:


> I thought that was just your evil twin...?


 
I have a doppelganger on the Falls Road too... 

I always meant to quiz my da about what shenanigans he got up to when he was in the Merchant Navy...


----------



## DexterTCN (Dec 15, 2012)

framed said:


> International solidarity pouring in for the 'fleg' protests...
> 
> scottish-loyalists-to-protest-at-belfast-flag-move
> 
> The Scottish Loyalists are defending the 'fleg' too, so's they are. ...





> Protesters also gathered at Livingston's Civic Centre on Thursday night.


That's not the biggest protest area in the world but it is next to a fair few pubs.   We still have a bit of an old firm infestation in Livingston


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## connollyist (Dec 16, 2012)

framed said:


> I have a doppelganger on the Falls Road too...
> 
> I always meant to quiz my da about what shenanigans he got up to when he was in the Merchant Navy...


funnily enough my father in laws da was in the merchant. he always jokes how his ma wasn't aware of all his extra kids till they got married...


----------



## LiamO (Dec 16, 2012)

DexterTCN said:


> We still have a bit of an old firm infestation in Livingston


 
Yes. You do.


----------



## Deareg (Dec 16, 2012)




----------



## LiamO (Dec 18, 2012)

So, how did the attempt to bring 'this country' to a standstill at 6pm last night go?


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## nino_savatte (Dec 18, 2012)

Has the EDL sent a delegation over for the fleg protests?


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## krink (Dec 19, 2012)

some north east infidels were going to do a fleg demo with their wee poundshop lanterns but it got cancelled. i heard it may have been because their leader got bagged by cops on drugs charges and is still in custody so it all went tits up ha ha. no surre....oh ok then.

*update* he's been held on firearms charges in durham nick.


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## Deareg (Dec 19, 2012)

nino_savatte said:


> Has the EDL sent a delegation over for the fleg protests?


Not sure but the little dears are doing their best to help out.


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## nino_savatte (Dec 19, 2012)

Deareg said:


> Not sure but the little dears are doing their best to help out.


They still can't spell. lol

Besides, it should be "fleg" not "flag".


----------



## Deareg (Dec 23, 2012)




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## Casually Red (Dec 30, 2012)

toggle said:


> 30 years ago, any move like removing the flag and you woudln't have seen small numbers out to complain, you would have seen thousands, every bloody unionist able to walk out onto the streets would have been protesting. think back to paisley's 'ulster says never' speach. don't know the exact numbers there, but the numbers out to protest tonight would have been lost in the crowd back then.
> 
> they've taken down the flag, the bloody flag. the flag being enough of a big deal that they had to set up a seperate discussion pannel on flags while negotiating good friday, cause no one was going to compromise on it. it was always gonna kick off when this happened, but the fact it's small numbers shows how far unionism has moved fowards. this lot will piss off their neighbours, who get that the republicans have compromised instead of taking the line of the complete removal of the flag, that they could have done (and perhaps wanted to do considering what tht flag means to them).
> 
> ...


 

Ive heard a lot of catholics/nationalists over here saying this stuff and i completely disagree . Its just as irrational a reaction as that of this tiny percentage of lumpen unionists . The union jack is simply being flown from atop Belfast city hall on designated days in line with the rest of the united kingdom, Royal birthdays etc as opposed to 365 days a year. That most certainly does not signal the demise of unionism or anything remotely approaching it . Its simply british rule being modernised to make it more palatable and easy to live with . Drive up the road a bit and youve got sinn fein over the moon Derry is the UK city of culture . Thats far from unionism being in decline . Thats political unionism being more user freindly , noramlised, legitimised and embedded in Irish political and cultural life.


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## Casually Red (Dec 30, 2012)

ViolentPanda said:


> The IRA as an organisation didn't collaborate. Elements of the IRA colluded with Nazi agents to further their own war aims, while a greater number of IRA members colluded with their formal enemy and joined the British military on a "hostilities only" basis. Both parties could be said to have acted in an instrumental manner, to serve their own greater purpose.


 
just to be clear . Ireland wasnt at war with Germany , so any IRA volunteer..in this instance its chief of staff .. accepting german military aid wasnt collaborating with Irelands enemies any more than pearse and connolly were collaborators 20 years earlier. The IRA was however in a state of armed conflict with the British empire having embarked on an english bombing campaign in 1938 which continued regardless of european hostilities . Any IRA volunteer joining the enemy forces was at best guilty of desertion according to the IRAs own rules. There were absolutely no "elements of" the IRA joining the British army . Only ex IRA men . And as regards the mood in Ireland at the time the residents of the falls road burnt their gas masks en masse in acts of civil disobedience and refused to obey black out orders . Even after the luftwaffe bombed Belfast . The prevailing mood accross Ireland to the aerial bombing in england was simply the Britih empire getting a taste of its own medicine . These facts are unpalatable for some, but largely the truth .
In this instance Sean Russel was IRA cheif of staff, not merely an element of the IRA . He was in the United states and arrested at the behest of the British . He was facing not just deportation but possible extradition to Britian and pirrepoints noose . Even extradition to Ireland could have meant his immediate execution . It was in this context, when he was on bail,  that elements of the german regime offered him an escape route out of the USA . It was his duty like any officer to take it . He was also perfectly well within his rights to glean whatever technology and armaments were on offer . The first thing he asked for, and got,  was Frank Ryans freedom from a spanish fascist jailcell .


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## Kuso (Jan 3, 2013)

and if you thought Xmas/ New Years was the end of it...


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## LiamO (Jan 3, 2013)

as the world says... Yawn... zzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......


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## Deareg (Jan 4, 2013)

More roads blocked again last night while the police again stood by and watched, in East Belfast Loyalists again attacked the Short Strand area before turning on the police with petrol bombs and other missiles.


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## Red Storm (Jan 5, 2013)

Deareg said:


> More roads blocked again last night while the police again stood by and watched, in East Belfast Loyalists again attacked the Short Strand area before turning on the police with petrol bombs and other missiles.


 
Guardian reporting more disturbances.


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## bignose1 (Jan 5, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Not sure but the little dears are doing their best to help out.


 
Always knew they had ulterior motifs


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## Fedayn (Jan 5, 2013)

bignose1 said:


> Always knew they had ulterior motifs


 
Surely you mean Ulsterior motives or ulsterior motifs?!


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## Deareg (Jan 5, 2013)

More rioting in East Belfast, Nationalist Short Strand attacked again and UVF attack police using automatic weapons.


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## N_igma (Jan 5, 2013)

Fuck the huns


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## Buckaroo (Jan 5, 2013)

Love Ulster coming to Dublin next Saturday, peaceful protest? I predict a riot.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2013)

They are in their bollix... all bluff and bluster.


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## LiamO (Jan 5, 2013)

http://www.herald.ie/news/love-ulster-loyalist-plans-dublin-protest-3343145.html
"I would be very offended if I was living in Ireland and someone came and asked me to take the flag down. But that's exactly how we feel in Belfast."

Oor Wullie... who lives in Ulster... not Ireland... EVER!


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## Buckaroo (Jan 5, 2013)

That water cannon's gonna be busy!


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## Deareg (Jan 5, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> That water cannon's gonna be busy!


It would have been a lot busier and backed up by plastic bullets if it had been Nationalist who were rioting or even trying to block a single road.


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## N_igma (Jan 6, 2013)

Them cunts r going mad


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## bignose1 (Jan 6, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Surely you mean Ulsterior motives or ulsterior motifs?!


I could have said that but was going on their mis-spell feds.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 6, 2013)

To yer average-ish mainland resident such as me, openminded and well aware of history,  but not especially taking much active interest in Irish politics (  ), these people rioting over 'the flag' come over as extremists, absolutely bonkers and nutzoid.


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## toggle (Jan 6, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> To yer average-ish mainland resident such as me, openminded and well aware of history, but not especially taking much active interest in Irish politics (  ), these people rioting over 'the flag' come over as extremists, absolutely bonkers and nutzoid.


 
they are loyalists. there are valid arguements made that loyalist politics are borderline fascist. not so borderline in some cases tbh. it's hardly supprising that political views that extreme come accross as utterly bonkers


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## toggle (Jan 6, 2013)

Deareg said:


> It would have been a lot busier and backed up by plastic bullets if it had been Nationalist who were rioting or even trying to block a single road.


 
no changes there then....


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## Deareg (Jan 6, 2013)

No surrender to democracy, loyalists demand their undemocratic rights.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 6, 2013)

toggle said:


> they are loyalists. there are valid arguements made that loyalist politics are borderline fascist. not so borderline in some cases tbh. it's hardly supprising that political views that extreme come accross as utterly bonkers


 
True enough, but I wonder whether anyone within loyalism gives any kind of shit about how their actions come over to people who aren't in their tribe, especially outside NI?


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## toggle (Jan 6, 2013)

Deareg said:


> No surrender to democracy, loyalists demand their undemocratic rights.


 
as they always fucking have done.



William of Walworth said:


> True enough, but I wonder whether anyone within loyalism gives any kind of shit about how their actions come over to people who aren't in their tribe, especially outside NI?


 
nope.

the only people they ever gavae a crap about were the mainland brits. and the mainland has declared that they consider loyalism an embarassment and wish the whole fucking place was someoen else's problem. their attitude gets compared to aparthied era boers, or the israeli settlers and their supporters. anyone else's opinions won't change theirs. they really, really know they are right.


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## Deareg (Jan 6, 2013)

The penny has dropped!


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## Deareg (Jan 6, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> True enough, but I wonder whether anyone within loyalism gives any kind of shit about how their actions come over to people who aren't in their tribe, especially outside NI?


I doubt it very much, the only ones who would give a fuck are those who are just about able to see through their own bigotry and hatred enough to realise that they are harming their own cause, and that would be the only reason that they would care.


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## tbtommyb (Jan 6, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> True enough, but I wonder whether anyone within loyalism gives any kind of shit about how their actions come over to people who aren't in their tribe, especially outside NI?


 
It's hard to exaggerate how insular Northern Ireland is.


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## Casually Red (Jan 6, 2013)

tbtommyb said:


> It's hard to exaggerate how insular Northern Ireland is.


 
its an artifical state, created by Britian for one purpose and completely propped up by Britian . Thats why their followers are so insular , they only exist for one purpose .


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## Citizen66 (Jan 6, 2013)

toggle said:
			
		

> so ti's collusion now, not collaboration. i take it that you have now conceeded that it is impossible for an irish citizen in ireland to have actually collaborated by supporting either side.......



I think you need to check your definition of collaborate.


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## Casually Red (Jan 6, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Who were running around in organised groups killing other british subjects your point?


 
the vast vast majority of loyalist victims , victims of state collusion, were totally innocent civilains . Often both their killers and those who sent them out were state employees . And the killers were also largely armed by the state . A war of random terror and assassination was waged against a civilian population by the state using a proxy force of killers . Mostly soft targets gathered in pubs or walking home from the pub , watching a race in the bookies etc . Thats who 99 per cent of the targets actually were .

At least 6 identified agents were involved in pat finucanes murder . They and their weapons were sent there by the British special branch . The ground was prepared by a Conservative governemnt minister in westminster declaring that certain lawyers in the north of Ireland were _unduly sympathetic to the IRA - _that was lawyers who were actually good at doing their job . And Pat Finucane was very good to the point he became a thorn in the British states side . He was dead within weeks of that pronouncement .

The British government was using death squads to intimidate an entire population into lowering their political aims and accept a political compromise which would ensure British rule remained . By making it clear to them that death and massacre could befall them anywhere - at work, in the home, when socialisng . Anyone could be killed at any time until the people buckled under . That was the message being sent .


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 6, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> To yer average-ish mainland resident such as me, openminded and well aware of history, but not especially taking much active interest in Irish politics (  ), these people rioting over 'the flag' come over as extremists, absolutely bonkers and nutzoid.


 
Mainland?


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## Citizen66 (Jan 6, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:
			
		

> Mainland?



yes, Wales was 'ere first.


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## tbtommyb (Jan 6, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> its an artifical state, created by Britian for one purpose and completely propped up by Britian . Thats why their followers are so insular , they only exist for one purpose .


 
Nationalists are pretty much just as insular, ime.


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## Fedayn (Jan 7, 2013)

Deareg said:


> I doubt it very much, the only ones who would give a fuck are those who are just about able to see through their own bigotry and hatred enough to realise that they are harming their own cause, and that would be the only reason that they would care.



Jackie Macdonald the UDA godfather has recently come out and criticised the flag demos as playing into others hands. By others he means SF.


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## Deareg (Jan 7, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Jackie
> Macdonald the UDA godfather has recently come out and criticised the flag demos as playing into others hands. By others he means SF.


Yeah, saw that, he seems to be one of the few with any sense but I still think his reasoning has more to do with the harm he sees that these protests are doing, along with his quest for acceptabillity and probably because he is wary of the UVF who will be recruiting like mad on the backs of these riots.
A mate of my wife's actually went and knocked on his front door to ask him why her son was getting hassle from UDA members, he got it stopped for her!


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## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> I think you need to check your definition of collaborate.


 

i have. you apparently have not.

 the key thing you haven't taken into account is that collaboration requires someone to be working with a state that is an enemy. Ireland was not the enemy of germany, therefore any irish citizens working with germany were not collaborating.the only people who insist on the term collaborator being used are those that have difficulties with the idea that Irealnd was running her own affairs by this point and had the absolute right to determine who her enemies were.

I've got my own opinions on anyone idiot enough to have worked with the germans, but i also know enough about irish history to understand why they did. i also know how dev defined neutrality was quite interesting, but he always was a sneaky bastard.


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## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i have. you apparently have not.
> 
> the key thing you haven't taken into account is that collaboration requires someone to be working with a state that is an enemy. Ireland was not the enemy of germany, therefore any irish citizens working with germany were not collaborating.the only people who insist on the term collaborator being used are those that have difficulties with the idea that Irealnd was running her own affairs by this point and had the absolute right to determine who her enemies were.
> 
> I've got my own opinions on anyone idiot enough to have worked with the germans, but i also know enough about irish history to understand why they did. i also know how dev defined neutrality was quite interesting, but he always was a sneaky bastard.


 
Its just enemy of your enemy is my friend type stuff/realpolitik. There were Indian people etc who worked with the germans _against the british_ (this is the key point) to try and help overthrow colonialism, not because they agreed with the doctrines of National Socialism but because they were fighting a war against britain and saw the british empire as their primary enemy.

the british state was never shy of working with absolute cunts to further its own aims, or as far as nazi germany was concerned, capable of stunning naivety ("i have in my hand a piece of paper!") why the hell should ireland be any different,especially when they had in recent memory experienced atrocities at the hands of the people the british were fighting


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## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

the irish state is no different to any state so i am surprised at why anyone is surprised, and irish assistance of the nazis had very little impact on the eventual outcome of the war


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## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

there were bretons who actively worked with the germans for much the same reasons. i wish i had the language skills, a lot of paperwork on that is in wales.


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## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> the irish state is no different to any state so i am surprised at why anyone is surprised, and irish assistance of the nazis had very little impact on the eventual outcome of the war


 
i think a lot of the attitude towards the irish came from the fact that ireland had got independence because they made themselves too much of a pain in the bum for britain to keep, despite not being 'white' enough to be considered fit to self govern.they they didn't support britain's war effoct was just another example of how they should not be allowed to make those decisions for themselves. The focus on dev's condolences on hitler's death is a smokescreen for how far he pushed neutrality and how much risk he took to support britain.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 7, 2013)

well yeah, he wasn't a nazi or anything.


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## nino_savatte (Jan 7, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Its just enemy of your enemy is my friend type stuff/realpolitik. There were Indian people etc who worked with the germans _against the british_ (this is the key point) to try and help overthrow colonialism, not because they agreed with the doctrines of National Socialism but because they were fighting a war against britain and saw the british empire as their primary enemy.
> 
> the british state was never shy of working with absolute cunts to further its own aims, or as far as nazi germany was concerned, capable of stunning naivety ("i have in my hand a piece of paper!") why the hell should ireland be any different,especially when they had in recent memory experienced atrocities at the hands of the people the british were fighting


James Craig, one of the founders of the UVF, actually bought a shipment of guns from Imperial Germany in 1912. The same Ulster Volunteers would find themselves fighting the Germans in WWI. How's that for irony?


----------



## Fedayn (Jan 7, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Yeah, saw that, he seems to be one of the few with any sense but I still think his reasoning has more to do with the harm he sees that these protests are doing, along with his quest for acceptabillity and probably because he is wary of the UVF who will be recruiting like mad on the backs of these riots.
> A mate of my wife's actually went and knocked on his front door to ask him why her son was getting hassle from UDA members, he got it stopped for her!


 
Aye he's definitely far more long-sighted in terms of the effect the riots have on their grievance and how it looks as per loyalist PR. Seems to me, from what i;'ve read too, that it's the UDA who are the more 'moderate' here as in they aren't whipping it up like the blacknecks. Surprises me a bit to be honest but i'm not surprised Macdonald has said it as he appears a far more savvy operator than alot of those who claim that kind of mantle. Hutchison strikes me as following the mob rather than providing any kind of analysis and solution.


----------



## seeformiles (Jan 7, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> James Craig, one of the founders of the UVF, actually bought a shipment of guns from Imperial Germany in 1912. The same Ulster Volunteers would find themselves fighting the Germans in WWI. How's that for irony?


 
My great Grandad was one of the 1912 gun-runners. He gave my great-uncle a package to look after shortly after he married my Great-Auntie in 1922. My great-uncle (being more concerned with running a hotel in a catholic area near Derry) stuck it in the hotel attic where it stayed for 40 years. By the early 60s my great-uncle and auntie had pissed the business up the wall and the police supported a bailiffs action to seize his assets in order to pay his creditors. They searched the attic and found "the package" which contained several stripped down carbines and 2000 rounds or so of ammo....
Luckily the coppers believed him!


----------



## Deareg (Jan 7, 2013)

Someone just posted this on FB and I thought some my find it interesting.

https://harrietlong.wordpress.com/2...me-of-my-me-the-lower-newtownards-road-story/


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## nino_savatte (Jan 7, 2013)

seeformiles said:


> My great Grandad was one of the 1912 gun-runners. He gave my great-uncle a package to look after shortly after he married my Great-Auntie in 1922. My great-uncle (being more concerned with running a hotel in a catholic area near Derry) stuck it in the hotel attic where it stayed for 40 years. By the early 60s my great-uncle and auntie had pissed the business up the wall and the police supported a bailiffs action to seize his assets in order to pay his creditors. They searched the attic and found "the package" which contained several stripped down carbines and 2000 rounds or so of ammo....
> Luckily the coppers believed him!


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 7, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Someone just posted this on FB and I thought some my find it interesting.
> 
> https://harrietlong.wordpress.com/2...me-of-my-me-the-lower-newtownards-road-story/



Brilliant article.

She sounds like a better youth worker than the one who was being interviewed by the BBC the other day and was blaming republican youth for the violence.


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## cemertyone (Jan 7, 2013)

Its so fucking sad that the "big house " unionism has used them and then fucked off (again) when things have got a bit naughty..
why dont the protestant working ( or non-working ) class ever learn..
They simply dont realise that belfast of 2013 is not belfast of 1913 and the days of those idiots lording it over us our gone...


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## Deareg (Jan 7, 2013)

Why can't these thick fucking bastards take the same attitude towards the bastards who made them unemployed, cut their benefits, are stripping away the health service? how the fuck do we get through to them?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20936523


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## DexterTCN (Jan 7, 2013)

They should apply for asylum.


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## Buckaroo (Jan 7, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Why can't these thick fucking bastards take the same attitude towards the bastards who made them unemployed, cut their benefits, are stripping away the health service? how the fuck do we get through to them?
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20936523


 

They get fucked over by their own politicians and 'community' leaders everytime. NI working class protestants always took worse conditions compared to the rest of the UK, going back forever, for that 'privilege', for that flag. No peace dividend for them, just scum UVF/LVF gangsters running the show. Poor bastards, ten year olds rioting over a flag ffs.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 7, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Mainland?


 
Is Wales not part of the mainland? It still would be even if independent. I was deliberately avoiding 'UK', 'Britain' etc. Cos I'd imagine that Ulster Unionists don't have many fans in either England or Wales, and not even _most_ of Scotland.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Is Wales not part of the mainland? It still would be even if independent. I was deliberately avoiding 'UK', 'Britain' etc. Cos I'd imagine that Ulster Unionists don't have many fans in either England or Wales, and not even _most_ of Scotland.


 
Are you comparing Ireland to the Isle of Wight?


----------



## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

mainland isn't exactly an uncommon term when looking at the differences between ulster and the rest of the UK. stop trying to wind him up.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 7, 2013)

William of Walworth said:


> Is Wales not part of the mainland? It still would be even if independent. I was deliberately avoiding 'UK', 'Britain' etc. Cos I'd imagine that Ulster Unionists don't have many fans in either England or Wales, and not even _most_ of Scotland.


 
'Mainland' when referring to Ireland, any part of it, is offensive. It just is.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> mainland isn't exactly an uncommon term when looking at the differences between ulster and the rest of the UK. stop trying to wind him up.


 
Define Ulster


----------



## peterkro (Jan 7, 2013)

Fog in channel Continent cut off.


----------



## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Define Ulster


 


i'm a fucking grad student in anglo irish political history. you do not want to play this game.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'm a fucking grad student in anglo irish political history. you do not want to play this game.


 
You won't have any problem defining Ulster then will you?


----------



## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> You won't have any problem defining Ulster then will you?


 
i certainly don't have any trouble defining someone who is playing wind up games for the fucking sake of it. you for example. ulster has enough of it's own twats playing fucking idiot games without you joining in


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i certainly don't have any trouble defining someone who is playing wind up games for the fucking sake of it. you for example. ulster has enough of it's own twats playing fucking idiot games without you joining in


 
I don't see gangs of inbreds whinging about not being able to fly the Union Flag in Cavan right now


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'm a fucking grad student in anglo irish political history. you do not want to play this game.


 
Quoted for Posterity btw


----------



## Firky (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'm a fucking grad student in anglo irish political history. you do not want to play this game.


 
Oh toggle


----------



## thriller (Jan 7, 2013)

Fucking Unionists. All over a poxy flag.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 7, 2013)

thriller said:


> Fucking Unionists. All over a poxy flag.


Loyalists... they're Loyalists.


----------



## toggle (Jan 7, 2013)

firky said:


> Oh toggle


 
times i do get fucking fed up with offence claimed for the fucking sake of it. 

ireland is the whole of the land if erin. ulster is the bit claimed by the unionists/loyalists. and it was a fucking cornishman who first suggested partition to parliament as a 'solution'. cause land and identity and belonging mena something beyond simple definitions. if there was an easy solution, there woudln't have been a civil war in NI for years. and i hve better things to do than play games with someone who thinks it's all funny to wind someone else up over terms that are commonly used and generally not offensive.


----------



## peterkro (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'm a fucking grad student in anglo irish political history. you do not want to play this game.


Regardless of being right or not an appeal to authority isn't the way to go.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> ulster is the bit claimed by the unionists/loyalists. .


 
Really?

Donegal is still claimed by Loyalists?


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> and i hve better things to do than play games with someone who thinks it's all funny to wind someone else up over terms that are commonly used and generally not offensive.


 
you should have just let me carry on without getting involved then


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 7, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> Its just enemy of your enemy is my friend type stuff/realpolitik. There were Indian people etc who worked with the germans _against the british_ (this is the key point) to try and help overthrow colonialism, not because they agreed with the doctrines of National Socialism but because they were fighting a war against britain and saw the british empire as their primary enemy.


 
TBF though, some of Bose's followers/supporters were on the ethnic-cleansing kick w/r/t Hindu nationalism, but that's been the case with Hindu nationalists since the Mughals.


----------



## DexterTCN (Jan 7, 2013)

First they came for the flags.  Or was it the gypsum?  My memory's going.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 7, 2013)




----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 7, 2013)

toggle said:


> i have. you apparently have not.
> 
> the key thing you haven't taken into account is that collaboration requires someone to be working with a state that is an enemy.[...]


 
No; collaboration doesn't require the bizarre context you provide. Anyone can collaborate with anyone on any project.

Did you not even bother to check when you decided to continue to argue?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

They broke out the plastic bullets last night.
 Who or what  are they loyal to? Always seemed a bit of a mystery to me abuse from republicans understandable loyalists having a go whats up with that???
   Not that I agree with loyalism just seems an excuse to bully catholics.
   Both sides ought to spend  more time in church and bible study the bits about forgiveness and turning the other cheek rather than the smiting stufff


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> No; collaboration doesn't require the bizarre context you provide. Anyone can collaborate with anyone on any project.
> 
> Did you not even bother to check when you decided to continue to argue?


 
I did, apparently again, you did not or are incapable of understanding that word usage can change according to context

the definition of collaborate/collaboration that is_ relevent_ to this situation would be:





			
				 "dictionary.com" said:
			
		

> to cooperate, usually willingly, with an enemy nation, especially with an enemy occupying one's country: He collaborated with the Nazis during World War II.


 
it is specifically an accusation of working with the enemy. which can only be made against irish citizens if germany was their enemy


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> ulster is the bit claimed by the unionists/loyalists.


 
Erm...?


----------



## flypanam (Jan 8, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> Really?
> 
> Donegal is still claimed by Loyalists?


 
If those dirty Leinster wankers are claiming Monaghan, I'll join the lodge.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 8, 2013)

But she is a grad student in Anglo Irish political history !!!!!!!!! She must know best.


----------



## flypanam (Jan 8, 2013)

Pan Republican Front? Wtf?

Good to see some unionists move on from the good old days of Pan Nationalist Front.


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

temper_tantrum said:


> But she is a grad student in Anglo Irish political history !!!!!!!!! She must know best.


 
I'm trying to work out whether that means he's a supposed expert on Anglo-Irish relations or a so called expert on the Protestant Ascendancy


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> ireland is the whole of the land if erin.


 
In Irish the name for the island of Ireland is 'Éire'. Erin is a Hiberno-English derivative. In English, which you appear to be speaking, it is sufficient to say the island of Ireland.


----------



## cemertyone (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> They broke out the plastic bullets last night.
> Who or what are they loyal to? Always seemed a bit of a mystery to me abuse from republicans understandable loyalists having a go whats up with that???
> Not that I agree with loyalism just seems an excuse to bully catholics.
> Both sides ought to spend more time in church and bible study the bits about forgiveness and turning the other cheek rather than the smiting stufff


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

The diffrences between the republic of ireland and the Uk are miniscule certainly not worth killing over.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> They broke out the plastic bullets last night.
> Who or what are they loyal to? Always seemed a bit of a mystery to me abuse from republicans understandable loyalists having a go whats up with that???
> Not that I agree with loyalism just seems an excuse to bully catholics.
> Both sides ought to spend more time in church and bible study the bits about forgiveness and turning the other cheek rather than the smiting stufff


 
loyalism/unionism is based on a manufactured identity. started with the divide and rule thing, ended up with more layers of shite being added to it every time the poeple in charge wanted to make sure the 'other' were kept in their place. you may think the undemocratic unionists thing to be a bit of a joke, but there really is a history of working class unionists being pushed into fighting for the right not to get democratic rights, cause if they got those rights, they would have to share them with the 'other'.the best example of this is the fight against the civil rights movement, but If i remember correctly, there was also a lot of shit stirring when it looked like connoly's ideas were gaining a foothold in northern industries.

just take the worst kind of politically manipulated, flag waving patriotism you see from westminster every time they need a circus, cause they took away the bread, then try to imagine an identity based almost completely upon that. of course it seems nonsensical. it is nonsensical.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Garek said:


> In Irish the name for the island of Ireland is 'Éire'. Erin is a Hiberno-English derivative. In English, which you appear to be speaking, it is sufficient to say the island of Ireland.


 
language dosen't always have to be just sufficient. it can also be interesting. you clearly understood the context, but still choose to bicker.

you and a bunch of other cunts.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Garek said:


> I'm trying to work out whether that means he's a supposed expert on Anglo-Irish relations or a so called expert on the Protestant Ascendancy


 
he?

snorts. but if i was going to be the sort to bicker, i'd comment on your assumptions that anyone commenting on politics must be male and accuse you of blatently being a sexist. based on your use of one word.


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> snorts. but if i was going to be the sort to bicker, i'd comment on your assumptions that anyone commenting on politics must be male and accuse you of blatently being a sexst. based on your use of one word.


 
You tried to use your education as a trump card and then proceeded to get something wrong. No need to throw a wobbly and start calling people cunts.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Garek said:


> You tried to use your education as a trump card and then proceeded to get something wrong. No need to throw a wobbly and start calling people cunts.


 
and your excuse for making sexist assumptions is?


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> and your excuse for making sexist assumptions is?


 
I never made any such thing.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Garek said:


> I never made any such thing.


 
you made an evidence free assumption that i was male, therefore you are sexist.

this is the route you have chosen to take us down. if yu want to bicker over this, i'm happy to play. i'd rather be rubbernecking the loyalists though. they are far more entertaining.


----------



## Garek (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> you made an evidence free assumption that i was male, therefore you are sexist.
> 
> this is the route you have chosen to take us down. if yu want to bicker over this, i'm happy to play. i'd rather be rubbernecking the loyalists though. they are far more entertaining.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

Its fuckinf depressing the diffrence between working class prods and catholics are miniscule but lethal
   In England people wave the union jack for footy or the olympics or a royal wedding etc no riots needed


----------



## Deareg (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The diffrences between the republic of ireland and the Uk are miniscule certainly not worth killing over.


It is amazing how often you just don't get it.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 8, 2013)

You couldn't make these fuckers up.

http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/01/04/loyalist-flag-protests-meet-the-leadership/


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The diffrences between the republic of ireland and the Uk are miniscule certainly not worth killing over.


 


likesfish said:


> Its fuckinf depressing the diffrence between working class prods and catholics are miniscule but lethal
> In England people wave the union jack for footy or the olympics or a royal wedding etc no riots needed


you know it's more complicated than that.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Deareg said:


> You couldn't make these fuckers up.
> 
> http://sluggerotoole.com/2013/01/04/loyalist-flag-protests-meet-the-leadership/


 

well, you could. but no one would believe you.





> Willie is no stranger to these parts, having priors when it comes to flag-induced rage- though, on that occasion, Willie experienced a touch of colour blindness after it was revealed that the ‘Tricolour’ flying from the catholic primary school he deemed an ‘IRA training ground’ was in fact the Italian flag, being flown as part of a European exchange programme


 


> *Pastor Mark Gordon,* a reformed glue-sniffer, has been making noises in Bangor in recent years, accusing the North Down council of “working to a nationalist agenda which will inevitably see the diminution of our culture and heritage.” That’d be the North Down council to which a nationalist representative has never been elected…..


----------



## seeformiles (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> well, you could. but no one would believe you.


 
I knew Mark Gordon when he was a punk - he did too many shrooms one night and had a religious experience - became an insufferable twat afterwards....


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> you know it's more complicated than that.



Its still depressing


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> you made an evidence free assumption that i was male, therefore you are sexist.
> 
> this is the route you have chosen to take us down. if yu want to bicker over this, i'm happy to play. i'd rather be rubbernecking the loyalists though. they are far more entertaining.



Have you got to the bit in the textbook that tells you Ulster has nine counties yet?


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

temper_tantrum said:


> Have you got to the bit in the textbook that tells you Ulster has nine counties yet?


 
i think we've moved back to rubbernecking the unionists. please try to keep up.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jan 8, 2013)

You may have done. I'm still laughing.


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Its still depressing


 
especially if you believe many of the underlying problems were caused by deliberate manipulation of all the unionists for the personal gain of a small number of people.

I could possibly start to feel sorry for them, they have been used, manipulated and left in a position where I think even they know there's no place for them. but the stuff the loyalists come out with really does make it very, very hard for anyone with half a brain to empathise.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

True and home rule/republicanism mutated into some sort of catholic church obssessed backwater
  For the last  hundred years it seems everyone involved in ireland has chosen poorly


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 8, 2013)

what are you, the grail knight?


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

It seems a fair choice
 Home rule good idea
 Ulster covenant and backing the traitorous scum bad choice
1916 rebellion bad choice
1916 executing the prisoners very bad choice and it went on and on


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

likesfish said:


> It seems a fair choice
> Home rule good idea
> Ulster covenant and backing the traitorous scum bad choice
> 1916 rebellion bad choice
> 1916 executing the prisoners very bad choice and it went on and on


 
this really only works if you see the continued maintanance of the status quo as the goal. for example, i'm failing to see how supporting the civil rights movement was a bad choice. the decisions that led to the need for that movement, many of the reactions to it, bad choices IMO. but the call for democracy was not a bad choice.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:
			
		

> I did, apparently again, you did not or are incapable of understanding that word usage can change according to context
> 
> the definition of collaborate/collaboration that is relevent to this situation would be:
> 
> it is specifically an accusation of working with the enemy. which can only be made against irish citizens if germany was their enemy



So collaborating with fascists can only occur if they're your enemy?

collaborating with fascists is bad in any context from an anti fascist perspective.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 8, 2013)

.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 8, 2013)

toggle said:


> this really only works if you see the continued maintanance of the status quo as the goal. for example, i'm failing to see how supporting the civil rights movement was a bad choice. the decisions that led to the need for that movement, many of the reactions to it, bad choices IMO. but the call for democracy was not a bad choice.



That was one of the few good choices most of the rest were pretty poor though


----------



## toggle (Jan 8, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> So collaborating with fascists can only occur if they're your enemy?
> 
> collaborating with fascists is bad in any context from an anti fascist perspective.


 
i don't recall suggesting that working with fascists was a good idea.

I just see the accusation that the IRA collaborated with the germans as denying that ireland had the right to decide for herself who her enemies were. my personal expereince is that this has an unpleasent tendency to morph into accusations the irish government was pro german.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 8, 2013)

temper_tantrum said:


> You may have done. I'm still laughing.


 
"Simple things please simple minds", and all that!


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 9, 2013)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20943293

BBC interviewing that loyalist slug youth worker again.


----------



## newbie (Jan 9, 2013)

temper_tantrum said:


> You may have done. I'm still laughing.


You misunderstood.  Her maneuver is called 'the Laurie Penny' and she played it with aplomb.  You are now out of the game.

Laughter is inappropriate.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Flags up to day so it will only be celebratory rioting today


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 9, 2013)

So this has gone on far longer and been far more serious then I ever expected.  What are the chances that it might spread?  Is there any risk of republicans being drawn in?  Or even being targetted as a deliberate attempt to escalate the situation?  What are the chances of this becoming a really serious problem?


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 9, 2013)

they don't seem to have the backing of the UDA- surely it'll fizzle out now jackies back up


----------



## likesfish (Jan 9, 2013)

Think its only for the day outrage and rioting can start tomorrow


----------



## Deareg (Jan 9, 2013)

Loyalists attacked the homes of Nationalist on the Springfield Rd in the West of the city earlier this evening.


----------



## toggle (Jan 9, 2013)

ffs


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Loyalists attacked the homes of Nationalist on the Springfield Rd in the West of the city earlier this evening.



maybe not now but i wouldn't be surprised if it takes on a life of its own


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'd rather be rubbernecking the loyalists though. they are far more entertaining.








lenny murphy: famous entertainer





billy wright: portadown comedian


----------



## weltweit (Jan 9, 2013)

18 days in a year does not seem a lot for flying the Union Jack.
I am not surprised there is furore about it.
Ridiculous.


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2013)

weltweit said:


> 18 days in a year does not seem a lot for flying the Union Jack.
> I am not surprised there is furore about it.
> Ridiculous.


belfast leads the way. perhaps we can get hackney to follow suit.

oh - and you know it's only the union jack when it's flown at sea, don't you.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 9, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> ....
> oh - and you know it's only the union jack when it's flown at sea, don't you.


No I didn't know that.. what is it called when it flies over Bucks house?


----------



## Pickman's model (Jan 9, 2013)

weltweit said:


> No I didn't know that.. what is it called when it flies over Bucks house?


union flag. and it only flies there when the queen's away.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jan 10, 2013)




----------



## likesfish (Jan 10, 2013)

weltweit said:


> 18 days in a year does not seem a lot for flying the Union Jack.
> I am not surprised there is furore about it.
> Ridiculous.


  Which is what happens in the rest of the UK not being americans we dont need a flag every 10 feet to remember what country we are living in.
 In fact if you go to brighton pier you might see an irish tricolor flying and nobody is screaming about that.


----------



## weltweit (Jan 10, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Which is what happens in the rest of the UK not being americans we dont need a flag every 10 feet to remember what country we are living in.
> In fact if you go to brighton pier you might see an irish tricolor flying and nobody is screaming about that.


 
Wheras if you go to Yorkshire you will see the England flag flying in a lot of towns and on a lot of buildings, all year round.


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Which is what happens in the rest of the UK not being americans we dont need a flag every 10 feet to remember what country we are living in.
> In fact if you go to brighton pier you might see an irish tricolor flying and nobody is screaming about that.


I agree... But suspect that a lot of the disturbance is about insecurity. NI is neither clearly British nor Irish, it's in it's own complicated state, so people on either side get a bit rabid about anything that they suspect means the other side is winning. The Protestants are (justifiably) terrified that the British mainland is going to wash their hands of them (which I suspect would be quite popular here) and leave them to the untender mercies of a catholic majority who have a (legitimate) historical grievance. So they rail against what they see as a step in that direction, whereas to most people it's just a flag


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 10, 2013)

untender mercies of a Catholic majority?

I must have missed the horrors that the Protestants suffered in the Free State after it's formation!


----------



## likesfish (Jan 10, 2013)

Hey its Ni it doesnt have to have any basis in fact to start a riot


----------



## Teaboy (Jan 10, 2013)

Teaboy said:


> So this has gone on far longer and been far more serious then I ever expected. What are the chances that it might spread? Is there any risk of republicans being drawn in? Or even being targetted as a deliberate attempt to escalate the situation? What are the chances of this becoming a really serious problem?


 


Deareg said:


> Loyalists attacked the homes of Nationalist on the Springfield Rd in the West of the city earlier this evening.


 
This is beginning to worry me a lot.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> I agree... But suspect that a lot of the disturbance is about insecurity. NI is neither clearly British nor Irish, it's in it's own complicated state, so people on either side get a bit rabid about anything that they suspect means the other side is winning. The Protestants are (justifiably) terrified that the British mainland is going to wash their hands of them (which I suspect would be quite popular here) and leave them to the untender mercies of a catholic majority who have a (legitimate) historical grievance. So they rail against what they see as a step in that direction, whereas to most people it's just a flag


This post is just wrong on every single point or issue that you tried to raise, sorry but laughably so.


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> untender mercies of a Catholic majority?
> 
> I must have missed the horrors that the Protestants suffered in the Free State after it's formation!


I don't think either side have a moral high ground, and lots of Catholics would love a chance to settle some scores (my uncle is one of them). Catholics can make a case they have suffered more, but Protestants would counter that was because they haven't ever had the chance to even the score. Both sides can quote horrific things done by the other, and then get into tedious and pointless arguments about why x mattered more than y because more people died/it was more recent/there was collusion from the British army/Irish government/us/Colombians/ it derailed a peace process/it was one of the first atrocities/children were hurt (delete as required)

 It's growing up in a mixed catholic/Protestant family that has made me hate religion and all the bullshit it's used to justify so very, very much.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jan 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> NI is neither clearly British nor Irish,


 
If you go there you will find its very much northern irish. The people of both communities have far more in common with each other culturally, in terms of language, music, humour, food and attitudes than they do with people in england. The tradgedy is that its in the interests of the politicians on both sides to keep the two communities separate.
Why aren't the people stirring up the flag shit storm on the streets to demand jobs and decent housing? The working class of all communities in Norn Iron are being fucked over.


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> If you go there you will find its very much northern irish. The people of both communities have far more in common with each other culturally, in terms of language, music, humour, food and attitudes than they do with people in england. The tradgedy is that its in the interests of the politicians on both sides to keep the two communities separate.
> Why aren't the people stirring up the flag shit storm on the streets to demand jobs and decent housing? The working class of all communities in Norn Iron are being fucked over.


Completely agree (large part of family are there) and agree on divide and rule too.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 10, 2013)

Unfortunatly none of the political partys in NI can do the cross community stuff that needs to be done realisticly


----------



## N_igma (Jan 10, 2013)

Some amount of shite posted in the past few pages.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 10, 2013)

Interesting poll results from Red C.



> Whatever the rights or wrongs of that piece of cloth flying over, or not, Belfast City Hall - some unexpected results in the latest Red C poll on the issue (with the caveat that all polls are subjective commercial exercises).
> 
> UNION FLAG FLYING
> Over half of those that expressed an opinion (57%) suggest that they feel the Belfast City Council was
> ...



Source: Look Left Magazine Facebook.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 10, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> Interesting poll results from Red C.
> 
> 
> 
> Source: Look Left Magazine Facebook.


Most Nationalists/Reprublicans/Catholics really did not give a fuck whether it flew or not but I imagine that if the council were to back down to the usual Loyalist violence and sabre rattling that would change very quickly.

Among other things though it shows that the fact that this issue is so important to Sinn Fein how totally bereft of any policies they are that would benefit any of the working class anywhere in Ireland.


----------



## toggle (Jan 10, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> untender mercies of a Catholic majority?
> 
> I must have missed the horrors that the Protestants suffered in the Free State after it's formation!


 
i'm fairly certain there were some sectarian attacks at that time. but not a great deal considering the time and the context.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 10, 2013)

toggle said:


> i'm fairly certain there were some sectarian attacks at that time. but not a great deal considering the time and the context.


 
All sectarian attacks are a great deal regardless of time or context. More so when 'attacks' means murder of non-combatants which it does in this case.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> untender mercies of a catholic majority


 

I saw figures in the Irish News last year that quoted a debate in the Dail in (I think) 1937.

15 years after the formation of the Iriah Free State, Protestants (much less than 10% of the population) has 40-odd percent of the Civil Service jobs... and the percentage at senior level was even higher...

...practically a pogrom, eh?


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I saw figures in the Irish News last year that quoted a debate in the Dail in (I think) 1937.
> 
> 15 years after the formation of the Iriah Free State, Protestants (much less than 10% of the population) has 40-odd percent of the Civil Service jobs... and the percentage at senior level was even higher...
> 
> ...*practically a pogrom, eh*?


no, not saying that at all, the protestant hold on civil service jobs (and it is much *much* worse in the security services) is appalling.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> It's growing up in a mixed catholic/Protestant family that has made me hate religion and all the bullshit it's used to justify so very, very much.


 
What

a lot

of cock.

It is not now, nor has it ever been about 'religion'. That is laughably simplistic.


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

LiamO said:


> What
> 
> a lot
> 
> ...


er, I used the same terminology you used in your post.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 10, 2013)

Manter said:


> no, not saying that at all, the protestant hold on civil service jobs (and it is much *much* worse in the security services) is appalling.


 
You do know that I the figures are from the south... where they had been subject to the "_untender mercies of a catholic majority" _for 15 years at that point.

That is my point. 

You are talking about the north.


----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 10, 2013)

isn't all the talk of a catholic/protestant backlash either way a load of fucking nonsense since most fancy the temporary GFA solution rather than a return to the bad old days?

not that GFA solved anything except a laying down of arms really, but is this not what people want, an uneasy peace that is better than none- a peace that if it holds and the elements on the fringes don't fuck it up will hold for the generations long enough to normalise it?

I disclaimer this with 'I know not a lot about the on the ground situation'


Personally I'd like to see a unified ireland and an end to the two state solution but then what do I know...


----------



## LiamO (Jan 10, 2013)

Who said you's traitorous english cunts get to sell out us ulster britishers to the foreigners from the foreign country of Ireland... just cos ye can... and cos we are an embarrassment... and a bunch of reactionary halfwits...  who no-one likes... least of all actual British people ... if they don't like our fleg they should fuck off back to Ireland...  and take you's english traitors with them


----------



## Manter (Jan 10, 2013)

LiamO said:


> You do know that I the figures are from the south... where they had been subject to the "_untender mercies of a catholic majority" _for 15 years at that point.
> 
> That is my point.
> 
> You are talking about the north.


And you're talking about the early part of last century, I'm talking about now


----------



## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> All sectarian attacks are a great deal regardless of time or context. More so when 'attacks' means murder of non-combatants which it does in this case.


of course, context is irrelevent.


----------



## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> And you're talking about the early part of last century, I'm talking about now


 
you're trying to portray a situation where you claim that the protestant population will be subject to widespread retaliation. but there just isn't any evidence to support that allegation.There were some sectarian attacks straight after irish independence, but not many considering the context of the abuses at that time, or the chaos caused by the civil war. liam's comments regarding the irish civil service hold far more of the picture.

The fear within some elements of the loyalist community, that a nationalist government will allow them to be treated in the same way they have treated others, is real. but ti's a fear based on their own prejudices rather than a wide base of evidence. loyalism has a history of sectarianism. Republicanism and the irish republic does not.

I do not think we need to be all that considerate of an unfounded fear that a bunch of fascists might be treated like they hve treated others.


----------



## Manter (Jan 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> you're trying to portray a situation where you claim that the protestant population will be subject to widespread retaliation. but there just isn't any evidence to support that allegation.There were some sectarian attacks straight after irish independence, but not many considering the context of the abuses at that time, or the chaos caused by the civil war. liam's comments regarding the irish civil service hold far more of the picture.
> 
> The fear within some elements of the loyalist community, that a nationalist government will allow them to be treated in the same way they have treated others, is real. but ti's a fear based on their own prejudices rather than a wide base of evidence. loyalism has a history of sectarianism. Republicanism and the irish republic does not.
> 
> I do not think we need to be all that considerate of an unfounded fear that a bunch of fascists might be treated like they hve treated others.


I made the point that loyalists fear reprisals if they are no longer in power/protected so I think we are agreeing. Where we possibly disagree is I suspect both sides are as badly behaved as each other- I don't reserve my irritation for one side or the other.

E2a- I am not sure what happened a century ago in ireland is necessarily a good guide to what would happen now btw


----------



## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> I made the point that loyalists fear reprisals if they are no longer in power/protected so I think we are agreeing. Where we possibly disagree is I suspect both sides are as badly behaved as each other- I don't reserve my irritation for one side or the other.
> 
> E2a- I am not sure what happened a century ago in ireland is necessarily a good guide to what would happen now btw


 
it is continuing evidence that there is not a history of sectarianism within republicanism.any fears the loyalists have about potential reprisals are in their heads. and they have that in their heads because that is the way in which they have behaved towards their neighbours.

if you have any evidence for a history of sectarian activity wthin the republican movement, there are a lot of people who would be interested to hear that. cause it would be an entirely new perspective on the republican movement. otherwise, your opinions/suspicions are simply feeding into existing prejudices against catholics.

or i can ask if you actually know the difference between the tactics used by loyalists and repubicans were? and why the loyalist attacks were often described as sectarian?

cause loyalist fear of reprisals is bullshit. they are afraid their own tactics will be used against them and there is no evidence to suggest republicans will do that


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## Manter (Jan 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> it is continuing evidence that there is not a history of sectarianism within republicanism.any fears the loyalists have about potential reprisals are in their heads. and they have that in their heads because that is the way in which they have behaved towards their neighbours.
> 
> if you have any evidence for a history of sectarian activity wthin the republican movement, there are a lot of people who would be interested to hear that. cause it would be an entirely new perspective on the republican movement. otherwise, your opinions/suspicions are simply feeding into existing prejudices against catholics.
> 
> ...


My evidence is anecdotal- my catholic family and its links with violence and stated dislike of loyalists.  And I have already said I come from a mixed Protestant /catholic family, so yes of course I know the tactics used- I also know both sides have killed non combatants without so much as a flicker of conscience.


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## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> My evidence is anecdotal- my catholic family and its links with violence and stated dislike of loyalists. And I have already said I come from a mixed Protestant /catholic family, so yes of course I know the tactics used- I also know both sides have killed non combatants without so much as a flicker of conscience.


 
you know the value of anecdata.

and there is a difference between killing non combatants and intentionally targetting them. a huge difference. remind me which side was deliberately targeting civilians? would that be the same groups that are now claiming fear of reprisals?

your evidence has the same value as theirs. and is the same deliberate stoking of unfounded fears.

i'll also go back to your assertions that evidence from the history of ireland has no value, when you raised the supposed catholic reactions to 'historical' greivances. it seems the catholics are assumed to be looking back to find reason to cause shit for their neighbours, but we are not allowed to look back to find that they actually don't.


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## Manter (Jan 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> you know the value of anecdata.
> 
> and there is a difference between killing non combatants and intentionally targetting them. a huge difference. remind me which side was deliberately targeting civilians? would that be the same groups that are now claiming fear of reprisals?
> 
> your evidence has the same value as theirs. and is the same deliberate stoking of unfounded fears.


Ah, Catholics as innocents who have only ever accidentally hurt bystanders. That old saw...  

Afraid I think it's extremely naive to portray the conflict as goodies vs baddies, black and white. It is much more complicated than that and both sides are at fault. 

But what would I know? I've only lived it, so my experience is clearly irrelevant.


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## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

in other words, you don't want to bother to look at the evidence of difference because it might conflict with your opinions.

like the one you have displayed here that labels 'catholics' as perpetrators of violence.


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> in other words, you don't want to bother to look at the evidence of difference because it might conflict with your opinions.
> 
> like the one you have displayed here that labels 'catholics' as perpetrators of violence.


 
Are you saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts, forcing people out of their homes etc?


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## seeformiles (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Are you saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts, forcing people out of their homes etc?


 
They certainly did. My mate's family were burnt out of their home in the Upper Shankill in the late 60s (his brother nearly died) and rehoused on a new estate 12 miles away. His parents (and neighbours) were red-hot prods - embittered by the experience (no more surprisingly than a catholic family having a similar experience) - while he was quite philosophical about it and bore no ill-will to anyone. (RIP Scourty)


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## cemertyone (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Are you saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts, forcing people out of their homes etc?


 
Sweet heart why dont you look at the facts....the greatest forced migrantion of people in western europe since the end of the second world war (till 1970) was the removal of catholic people from areas of northern ireland by protestant  and unionist people.....you simply cant argue with that.......


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## cemertyone (Jan 11, 2013)

Pickman's model said:


> maybe not now but i wouldn't be surprised if it takes on a life of its own





we were burnt out of Bombay Street....then moved to freer street..where the first catholic family in lenadoon ..in falcarragh drive....and the only reson my dad was not killed by the tartan scum was because my dad was ex british army......
belfast of 2013 is not carsons belfast of 1913..
if the extremist elements of unionism want to burn there areas...comunitty centres and all else..let them the rest of us are moving on...
fuck them theres yesterdays people.....


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## cemertyone (Jan 11, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Loyalists attacked the homes of Nationalist on the Springfield Rd in the West of the city earlier this evening.


 what do you expect they cant even articulte there views on the radio/tv.......there ignorant has beens....and its over for them..
go back to watching Jeremy Kille...while the rest of us get on with our lives.......muppets


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 11, 2013)

cemertyone said:


> Sweet heart why dont you look at the facts....the greatest forced migrantion of people in western europe since the end of the second world war (till 1970) was the removal of catholic people from areas of northern ireland by protestant and unionist people.....you simply cant argue with that.......


 
I dont need the lecture on the history of the troubles. But that wasn't my point. You seem to be saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts. But I personally know people - and seeformiles makes the same claim above - who were violently intimidated out of their homes by republican paramilitaries (in the 80s in my case)
The IRA did many many utterly cuntish and cynical things in the name of 'the cause' - anyone who denies this is a partizan idiot IMO. That fact does not mean support for unionism, nor does it dismiss the historical oppression of the ulster catholics - but it does mean accepting that the situation is murky and its not a simple case of nasty prods and brave catholics.

The only way forward for northern ireland is anti-sectarianism. Unification with the republic is not going to happen and many many Catholics would not support it either. Meanwhile the province suffers some of the worst unemployment and poverty in the UK but its politicians seem more interested in perpetuating the divide between working class communities.


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## William of Walworth (Jan 11, 2013)

From bottom of page 19/top of page 20 :



weltweit said:


> 18 days in a year does not seem a lot for flying the Union Jack.
> I am not surprised there is furore about it.
> Ridiculous.


 



			
				likesfish said:
			
		

> Which is what happens in the rest of the UK not being americans we dont need a flag every 10 feet to remember what country we are living in.
> In fact if you go to brighton pier you might see an irish tricolor flying and nobody is screaming about that.


 



			
				weltweit said:
			
		

> Wheras if you go to Yorkshire you will see the England flag flying in a lot of towns and on a lot of buildings, all year round.


 
When you get comments so devoid of any awareness at all of NI history and politics, like weltweit's above, then all I can do is agree with this :




			
				N_igma said:
			
		

> Some amount of shite posted in the past few pages.


 
I don't even know much Irish history myself, but if I was as ignorant as weltweit appears to be, I'd prefer to read up and learn rather than _advertise_ my lack of knowledge.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

Anyone hearing anything about the rumour WFs crewleft an hour ago pointing to Dublin?


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

List of illegal protests up until January 27th...


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

Updated list of Tonights illegal protests


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

EPIC FAIL!!!!!! 

hint check the spelling


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## toggle (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Are you saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts, forcing people out of their homes etc?


 
my point is about the allegation that the union ists would be left to the 'tender mercies' of aggrieved catholics.

The most widespread examples of sectarian behavior, the organised sectarian attacks were carried out in the name of the unionist communities against catholics. as explainedby:


cemertyone said:


> Sweet heart why dont you look at the facts....the greatest forced migrantion of people in western europe since the end of the second world war (till 1970) was the removal of catholic people from areas of northern ireland by protestant and unionist people.....you simply cant argue with that.......


 
if there is a fear within the unionist community at this point, it is caused by the fear they will be treated as they treated others, not because there is any significant incidents that would leade to a genuine fear of attack.


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## LiamO (Jan 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> But what would I know? I've only lived it, so my experience is clearly irrelevant.


 
What. specifically, have you 'lived'?

I fear you are being disingenuous in lieu of a defendable position.

Please post up some examples of Pogroms carried out by republicans against their protestant fellow-countrymen and women. I won't hold my breath waiting.


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## LiamO (Jan 11, 2013)

Manter said:


> Ah, Catholics as innocents who have only ever accidentally hurt bystanders. That old saw...


 
An 'old saw' that nobody, not one person on this thread is putting forward.

Is OSABATO all you have? Really? You know that simply does not hold water. Please put up of shut up.


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## LiamO (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Are you saying that republicans never carried out sectarian acts, forcing people out of their homes etc?


 
Nobody is arguing there have never been sectarian republicans or sectarian acts carried out on occasion by people who may have regarded themselves as republicans.

Loyalism, on the other hand _is_ sectarian _by it's very nature_ and is entirely based on sectarian thought (or lack of it) and action.


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

seeformiles said:


> They certainly did. My mate's family were burnt out of their home in the Upper Shankill in the late 60s (his brother nearly died) and rehoused on a new estate 12 miles away. His parents (and neighbours) were red-hot prods - embittered by the experience (no more surprisingly than a catholic family having a similar experience) - while he was quite philosophical about it and bore no ill-will to anyone. (RIP Scourty)


 
i personally find this account very difficult to believe . In the late 1960s the IRA in belfast were virtually moribund . They didnt even have the weapons to defend nationalist areas let alone make incursions into the shankill road to burn sections of the population out . There are endless accounts of that era to back that assertion up , along with the evidence of entire nationalist districts from the lower falls to the ardoyne put to the torch with nothing to defnd them against ornage mobs puring out of the shankill . Ive never once heard of republican mobs descending onto the shankill road to burn homes, not once . And particularly not then . I strongly suspect your mate was telling you a load of old shit . As you admit hes an orange bigot, so that would make particular sense. The B specials, C specials, RUC ,Orange order etc must have been curiously asleep when this previously unheard of republican assault on the shankill road occured .
Worth bearing in mind that at the time your mate claims republicans burned out houses in the upper shankill ardoyne was being defended from orange mobs by little more than a .22 rifle and a legally held shotgun .

Thats not to claim for a second that individual republicans and those using republicanism as a flag of sectarian convenience have not committed heinous sectarian acts down the years . Simply that your mates account sounds like a load of shit due to the fact of it being a distinct physical impossibility during that particular period .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> The only way forward for northern ireland is anti-sectarianism. Unification with the republic is not going to happen and many many Catholics would not support it either. Meanwhile the province suffers some of the worst unemployment and poverty in the UK but its politicians seem more interested in perpetuating the divide between working class communities.


 
The British system actively promotes institutionalised sectarianism , is directly responsible for it. Therefore the way forward is an end to British rule . Weve had 18 years of a supposed peace process and sectarianism is still boiling and still very popular . Weve been listening to this "stages theory" of bullshit leftism for decades now and its been comprehensively proven to be a steaming pile of bullshit . You cant be anti sectarian without addre3ssing the issue which sustains sectarianism . Its british rule which does that . And a united Ireland has numerous alternatives within it  as a concept instead of just a 32 county free state . Anti sectarianism in the context of continuing colonial rule is just empty rhetoric . The north itself exists purely as a result of state sponsored sectarianism as a means of subverting Irish democracy . Blaming the natives for the system the imperialists have forced on them doesnt strike me as a particularly progressive or revolutionary way forward.


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

cemertyone said:


> what do you expect they cant even articulte there views on the radio/tv.......there ignorant has beens....and its over for them..
> go back to watching Jeremy Kille...while the rest of us get on with our lives.......muppets


 
its not over for them in the slightest . Right now its those people whom the unionist leaders are chasing after . Theyre setting the agenda .


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> If you go there you will find its very much northern irish. The people of both communities have far more in common with each other culturally, in terms of language, music, humour, food and attitudes than they do with people in england. The tradgedy is that its in the interests of the politicians on both sides to keep the two communities separate.
> Why aren't the people stirring up the flag shit storm on the streets to demand jobs and decent housing? The working class of all communities in Norn Iron are being fucked over.


 
they arent doing that because the british system has taught them over the centuries to vent their frustrations on their catholic neighbours as opposed to their betters . The people of the 6 counties didnt devise this system themselves . An imperialist country put it there . Itll only ever change when the imperialists get the fuck out of it and remove the political basis for sectarianism . The British state in Ireland exists only to foster and encourage sectarianism . It owes its very existence to the fostering and maintenance of sectarianism . That situation wont change until theres a completely different political dynamic, an end to colonial rule.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

Interesting how ITN news at ten just dwelled less than a minute on the riots.... Any wonder there are so many blinkered views....


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> So collaborating with fascists can only occur if they're your enemy?
> 
> collaborating with fascists is bad in any context from an anti fascist perspective.


 
you dont live in a country thats occupied by a foreign power so Ill make allowances . But it would be interesting for you to explain to us why accepting technology and know how from fascists who dont militarily occupy your country is worse than collaborating with rabid imperialists who militarily occupy your country . Presumably the best thing Frank Ryan should have done under the circumstances was to refuse to be released from a fascist jail cell in spain and insist he be shot rather than brought to safety in Berlin instead with a promise he would soon be home leading an anti imperialist insurrection . That would seem to have been the logical choice, under your logic .


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## Deareg (Jan 11, 2013)

Just heard that there was a report on the radio that some old fella was stopped from getting to the hospital to visit his dying wife.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 11, 2013)




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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> So collaborating with fascists can only occur if they're your enemy?
> 
> collaborating with fascists is bad in any context from an anti fascist perspective.


 
ok, lets say a bunch of scumbags are invading your home , beating up your family , sexually assalting your partner whatever . Doing pretty bad shit to you and yours and your too weak on your own to stop them . And the only people that happen to turn up and try to help you in your moment of desperate need are a bunch of EDL or BNP . I take it then youd insist on telling them to fuck off out of it and continue with the home invasion / rape/ robbery etc on principle rather than accept their help and be therefore somehow tainted.


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

likesfish said:


> True and home rule/republicanism mutated into some sort of catholic church obssessed backwater
> For the last hundred years it seems everyone involved in ireland has chosen poorly


 
it didnt just mutate . The biggest empire in the world told one of the smallest countries in the world that despite a series of elections were progressive republicanism was the most popular choice by far , if it did not accept the twin conservative religious bantustans it was imposing on it they would suffer all out war against their civilian population from one of the greatest military powers on earth . Navl artillery was to be turned on towns, the countryside studded with concrete blockhouses . While simultaneously arming and geeing up the orangemen, as theyd done for centuries to deal with social discontent . This led to splits and factionalising among the progressive forces, a counter revolution and civil war and a country divided against its peoples wishes with the conservatives implanted in power both sides of the border . To talk of choices in this context is laughable .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

toggle said:


> mainland isn't exactly an uncommon term when looking at the differences between ulster and the rest of the UK. stop trying to wind him up.


 
its widespread use is no less offensive . It means Irelands an offshore Island of the great mother country , rather than a nation in its own right.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 11, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Just heard that there was a report on the radio that some old fella was stopped from getting to the hospital to visit his dying wife.



SCUM....


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## Citizen66 (Jan 11, 2013)

Casually Red said:
			
		

> you dont live in a country thats occupied by a foreign power so Ill make allowances . But it would be interesting for you to explain to us why accepting technology and know how from fascists who dont militarily occupy your country is worse than collaborating with rabid imperialists who militarily occupy your country . Presumably the best thing Frank Ryan should have done under the circumstances was to refuse to be released from a fascist jail cell in spain and insist he be shot rather than brought to safety in Berlin instead with a promise he would soon be home leading an anti imperialist insurrection . That would seem to have been the logical choice, under your logic .



Since when do I fall into the other category? 

Anyway, my quarrel with toggle was purely pedantic. I couldn't give a shit if the IRA collaborated with fascists. I'm hardly an IRA fanboy given they're a hierarchical organisation,  am I?


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## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I saw figures in the Irish News last year that quoted a debate in the Dail in (I think) 1937.
> 
> 15 years after the formation of the Iriah Free State, Protestants (much less than 10% of the population) has 40-odd percent of the Civil Service jobs... and the percentage at senior level was even higher...
> 
> ...practically a pogrom, eh?


 
it was even higher among the senior banking positions . And there was Trinity . The head quarters of the Orange order was still in Dublin right into the 1930s .


----------



## Casually Red (Jan 11, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Since when do I fall into the other category?
> 
> Anyway, my quarrel with toggle was purely pedantic. I couldn't give a shit if the IRA collaborated with fascists. I'm hardly an IRA fanboy given they're a hierarchical organisation, am I?


 
fucks sake i forgot who you were . That son of a screw that believes in all that one world ballsology , but who still manages to be a unionist as well .


But i take its your belief that Frank Ryan should have refused to be released and opted for execution instead , regardless of your failure to answer the question .


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jan 11, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> An imperialist country put it there . Itll only ever change when the imperialists get the fuck out of it and remove the political basis for sectarianism .


 
Im sorry but that is such bollocks. Yes the sectarianism is  a result of several centuries of settlement, displacement, british rule enforced by violence and the institutionalised unionist supremacy. But that is not the situation now. From my experience most people in northern ireland just want to get on with their lives without paramilitaries or the british  army sticking guns in their faces.
Most of the catholics I meet over there get hacked off with the loyalist headbangers, but they do not see themselves as suffering under an armed occupation. Its more a case of a minority clinging on to a  sentimental, romanticised version of  nationalism that does nothing to address the real needs of the community. Its a comfort zone of tiocfaidh songs, symbols and flags that just as much of a reactionary poltical cul-de-sac as the orange nob heads banging on about the siege of fucking derry.  
What does 'an end to imperial rule in northern ireland' mean? A union with the corrupt, reactionary, quasi theocratic, economically fucked  and equally capitalist republic? A move that would be (very) violently opposed by the protestant community. What the point of fighting for that?
Nationalists striving for a united ireland  made  some sort of sense in 1972, in 2013 its just deluded, self indulgent sentimentalism.
Surely the only pragmatic, progressive cause is an independent northern ireland built on solid anti-sectarian principles and working class solidarity. Fighting for an 'end to imperial rule' means nothing to many catholics and instantly alienates half the population. Fight for things like decent wages, jobs and better homes for everybody.


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## Deareg (Jan 11, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Im sorry but that is such bollocks. Yes the sectarianism is a result of several centuries of settlement, displacement, british rule enforced by violence and the institutionalised unionist supremacy. But that is not the situation now. From my experience most people in northern ireland just want to get on with their lives without paramilitaries or the british army sticking guns in their faces.
> Most of the catholics I meet over there get hacked off with the loyalist headbangers, but they do not see themselves as suffering under an armed occupation. Its more a case of a minority clinging on to a sentimental, romanticised version of nationalism that does nothing to address the real needs of the community. Its a comfort zone of tiocfaidh songs, symbols and flags that just as much of a reactionary poltical cul-de-sac as the orange nob heads banging on about the siege of fucking derry.
> What does 'an end to imperial rule in northern ireland' mean? A union with the corrupt, reactionary, quasi theocratic, economically fucked and equally capitalist republic? A move that would be (very) violently opposed by the protestant community. What the point of fighting for that?
> Nationalists striving for a united ireland made some sort of sense in 1972, in 2013 its just deluded, self indulgent sentimentalism.
> Surely the only pragmatic, progressive cause is an independent northern ireland built on solid anti-sectarian principles and working class solidarity. Fighting for an 'end to imperial rule' means nothing to many catholics and instantly alienates half the population. Fight for things like decent wages, jobs and better homes for everybody.


I think you are confusing all that with a natural desire among nationalists for peace rather than armed conflict.


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## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> SCUM....



Seems their culture is alive and kicking still.


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## Casually Red (Jan 12, 2013)

[quote="Kaka Tim, post: 11873350, member:


> Im sorry but that is such bollocks. Yes the sectarianism is a result of several centuries of settlement, displacement, british rule enforced by violence and the institutionalised unionist supremacy. But that is not the situation now. From my experience most people in northern ireland just want to get on with their lives without paramilitaries or the british army sticking guns in their faces.


 
your the one talking bollocks . The current stormont system , like the one before it, is based entirely upon institutionalised sectarianism . The successful management and maintenance of sectarianism . You seem unable to differentiate between discrimination and sectarianism . Seperate but equal seems to have escaped you as a concept . Most people in the north of Ireland vote along tribal lines, despite the provos calling a ceasefire in 1994 . Despite devolved institutions being put in place in 1998 . Since the provo ceasefire in 1994 there have actually been more peacewalls built in belfast than prior to it . Sectarianism is worse now . Its been normalised, made respectable . Institutionalised. You havent a fuckijng clue what your talking about.




> Most of the catholics I meet over there get hacked off with the loyalist headbangers, but they do not see themselves as suffering under an armed occupation.


 
right now they arent under an armed occupation, as their political leaders have agreed to collaborate openly with the colonialist power . Theres only ever armed occupation when people resist occupation . Thats why Britian has been so keen on ulsterisation and normalisation. A stringof insurgent attacks will most certainly put uniformed troops back onto the streets and therell be no doubt about armed occupation then . Thats a matter of when and not if . As it always has been.



> Its more a case of a minority clinging on to a sentimental, romanticised version of nationalism that does nothing to address the real needs of the community. Its a comfort zone of tiocfaidh songs, symbols and flags that just as much of a reactionary poltical cul-de-sac as the orange nob heads banging on about the siege of fucking derry.


 
stick your british colonialism up your arse, thanks





> What does 'an end to imperial rule in northern ireland' mean? A union with the corrupt, reactionary, quasi theocratic, economically fucked and equally capitalist republic? A move that would be (very) violently opposed by the protestant community. What the point of fighting for that?


 
it means an end to british imperial rule in Ireland . Plainly your very much in favour of its continuance, due to the fact the natives are all hopeless romantics and need logical clear thinking rulers that their own island cant supply . Theres no denying that many protestants support imperialism, but them fighting for it to come back is just ridiculous . Their power rests primarily on their being supported by a superiuor military force, not some innate superiority over everyone else . The irih people arent afraid of them



> Nationalists striving for a united ireland made some sort of sense in 1972, in 2013 its just deluded, self indulgent sentimentalism.


 
its anti imperialism . And the results of your imperialist system have been all over the streets of belfast fopr the past month . You cant deliver anti sectarianism or peace to our country . Britiish imperialism is the poison at the heart pf the system .



> Surely the only pragmatic, progressive cause is an independent northern ireland built on solid anti-sectarian principles and working class solidarity. Fighting for an 'end to imperial rule' means nothing to many catholics and instantly alienates half the population. Fight for things like decent wages, jobs and better homes for everybody


 
an independent non sectarian northern Ireland..for fucks sake . You live in a dream world .It only exists because of sectarianiism and to sustain sectariansim . How are there going to be better wages and homes in a tiny state with no resources or economy that requires constant propping up from britian thanks to it being cut off from the rest of the nation ? That onmly exists because of a protestant refusal to live side by side with their catholic fellow countrymen . your a joker demanding that be sustained . Irelands only hope is to unite and put an end to all differences a colonial power has put inplace . The ownership of Ireland by the people of Ireland . Not little fucking bantustans that cant sustain themselves . Pragmatic and progressive my arse.[/quote]


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jan 12, 2013)

> your the one talking bollocks . The current stormont system , like the one before it, is based entirely upon institutionalised sectarianism . The successful management and maintenance of sectarianism . You seem unable to differentiate between discrimination and sectarianism . Seperate but equal seems to have escaped you as a concept . Most people in the north of Ireland vote along tribal lines, despite the provos calling a ceasefire in 1994 . Despite devolved institutions being put in place in 1998 . Since the provo ceasefire in 1994 there have actually been more peacewalls built in belfast than prior to it . Sectarianism is worse now . Its been normalised, made respectable . Institutionalised. You havent a fuckijng clue what your talking about.


 
Yes sectariansim has been institutionalised - and its in the interests of both sets of poltical leaders to keep it that way.



> right now they arent under an armed occupation, as their political leaders have agreed to collaborate openly with the colonialist power . Theres only ever armed occupation when people resist occupation . Thats why Britian has been so keen on ulsterisation and normalisation. A stringof insurgent attacks will most certainly put uniformed troops back onto the streets and therell be no doubt about armed occupation then . Thats a matter of when and not if . As it always has been.


 
So you think they should restart the armed struggle? Really?
And this 'colaboration' is seen by the overwhelming majority as infinitely superior to the shit that went before. Becasue now catholics are not routinely having there doors kicked in by squaddies and being marched off to long kesh. The present situation is fraught with contradictoins, tensions and fudges and it has instituionalised sectarianism - so what is the pragamatic progressive alternative?





> stick your british colonialism up your arse, thanks


 
Jesus wept ...




> it means an end to british imperial rule in Ireland .


 
Unification with the republic? Yes or No? If not that - what?



> Plainly your very much in favour of its continuance, due to the fact the natives are all hopeless romantics and need logical clear thinking rulers that their own island cant supply .


 
Yes thats exactly what i was saying. 



> its anti imperialism . And the results of your imperialist system have been all over the streets of belfast fopr the past month . You cant deliver anti sectarianism or peace to our country . British imperialism is the poison at the heart pf the system .


 
Most of the poeple of northern ireland do not recognise themselves as suffering under britsh imperialism. Perhaps they lack your level of enlightenment. Perhaps you should join up with the Cornish nationalists who are simarly suffering. Or maybe the posion at the heart of the system is romantic nationalism - particuarly afflicting the loyalists communities but also a few nationalist headbangers who want to go back to the simplicites of living directly under the guns.




> an independent non sectarian northern Ireland..for fucks sake . You live in a dream world .It only exists because of sectarianiism and to sustain sectariansim . How are there going to be better wages and homes in a tiny state with no resources or economy that requires constant propping up from britian thanks to it being cut off from the rest of the nation ? That onmly exists because of a protestant refusal to live side by side with their catholic fellow countrymen . your a joker demanding that be sustained . Irelands only hope is to unite and put an end to all differences a colonial power has put inplace . The ownership of Ireland by the people of Ireland . Not little fucking bantustans that cant sustain themselves . Pragmatic and progressive my arse


 
Well half the nations of the world only exist because of imperialism and sectarianism - but we are where we are. Any progressive way forward in northern ireland has to be based on promoting anti-sectarianism and cross community working class solidarity. Anything else is doomed to deepen the dividing lines. Or have the prods just got to lump it cos they had it there way up till now and its payback time?



> The ownership of Ireland by the people of Ireland


 
Its owned by the fucking banks - just like the rest of Europe.[/quote]


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Surely the only pragmatic, progressive cause is an independent northern ireland...


 
You sound like John McMichael. Congratulations.


----------



## frogwoman (Jan 12, 2013)




----------



## DotCommunist (Jan 12, 2013)

uh oh the son of man is getting involved


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 12, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> Im sorry but that is such bollocks. Yes the sectarianism is a result of several centuries of settlement, displacement, british rule enforced by violence and the institutionalised unionist supremacy. But that is not the situation now. From my experience most people in northern ireland just want to get on with their lives without paramilitaries or the british army sticking guns in their faces.
> Most of the catholics I meet over there get hacked off with the loyalist headbangers, but they do not see themselves as suffering under an armed occupation. Its more a case of a minority clinging on to a sentimental, romanticised version of nationalism that does nothing to address the real needs of the community. Its a comfort zone of tiocfaidh songs, symbols and flags that just as much of a reactionary poltical cul-de-sac as the orange nob heads banging on about the siege of fucking derry.
> What does 'an end to imperial rule in northern ireland' mean? A union with the corrupt, reactionary, quasi theocratic, economically fucked and equally capitalist republic? A move that would be (very) violently opposed by the protestant community. What the point of fighting for that?
> Nationalists striving for a united ireland made some sort of sense in 1972, in 2013 its just deluded, self indulgent sentimentalism.
> Surely the only pragmatic, progressive cause is an independent northern ireland built on solid anti-sectarian principles and working class solidarity. Fighting for an 'end to imperial rule' means nothing to many catholics and instantly alienates half the population. Fight for things like decent wages, jobs and better homes for everybody.


 
This sounds like the same waffle the SWP have been pitching in the Six Counties for the last few decades. Carping on about how "most Irish people think this...." and "most Irish people want that..." when their own organisations are increasingly irrelevant to the majority of working class people.

It must drive them crazy that figures such as James Connolly formed the cornerstone of modern Irish Republicanism. It's groups like this who intentionally reject the notion of any kind of progressive and anti-sectarian Irish Nationalism.

It's no surprise, as the view of sectarianism here is somewhat lacking. Just re-read the quote here: *"Yes the sectarianism is a result of several centuries of settlement, displacement, british rule enforced by violence and the institutionalised unionist supremacy. But that is not the situation now."*

It's a complete contradiction. On the one hand it's accepting that sectarianism is a symptom of colonial rule, but on the other hand it's claiming that such an analysis no longer applies. As Casually Red easily outlined, sectarianism is still a legacy in the Six Counties and has to be acknowledged as having purchase on the current state of both social and political life.

If the intention is to overcome sectarianism, then one has to address the issues surrounding competing claims of Sovereignty on the North. Simply trying to ignore this, and making out that we can all live in some workers utopia as long as we just 'shut up about the past' has proven to be (as you say) deluded.


----------



## N_igma (Jan 12, 2013)

It's hard to explain the situation in the North. But truth is, GENERALLY most Catholics and Protestants mistrust each other. I'll take generations to get over it.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 12, 2013)

N_igma said:


> I'll take generations to get over it.


----------



## Kaka Tim (Jan 12, 2013)

intersol32 said:


> If the intention is to overcome sectarianism, then one has to address the issues surrounding competing claims of Sovereignty on the North.


 
But what does this actually _mean_?

Most people in the north - including many catholics - dont want to be part of the republic. If I lived there (and I was brought up catholic  with irish grandparents) nor would I. Its a romantic attachment that doesn't make sense - anymore than the loyalist attachment to 'resisting papal oppression'. The catholics no longer suffer under the unionists supremacy and 'british rule' is no longer enforced at gun point. The border is open. Furthermore the republic is economically even more fucked than the UK, its politics as - if not more -  corrupt and it  still has a reactionary thread of theocracy running through it. Furthermore 'national identity' is increasingly meaningless - whats the point of fighting to be governed  by the same banks and corporations just with a different set of front men? 

Northern Ireland has a distinct identity and culture that's part Irish and part ulster scots - the loyalist desire to be 'british' and their veneration of the flag ignores the fact that they are not 'british' (whatever that means) but they are northern Irish.  They despise the british government because deep down they realise that they have been used as imperialist patsies, fighting tooth and nail against uppity natives for the empire, but who have now outlived their usefulness  .

Yeah all this is a legacy of the imperialism, oppression, division and conflict - but you cant change that past. The only way forward is to find a way to include the majority of the protestant community in progressive politics by addressing the real concrete needs of both communities. Banging on about an 'end to imperialism' instantly alienates at least half the population because they assume that means joining the republic - and what else can it mean? 

Irish nationalism has become a reactionary comfort blanket that smothers progressive politics. Its easy to laugh at the loyalist and their spittle flecked fury at living in the 21st centuary rather than the 17th (and I do) but what is republicanism offering and promoting? An equally divisive and institutionalised cultural/national identity and  a misty eyed desire to rejoin an imaginary nation? 

Why should anyone who believes in any form of socialism support that?


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 12, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> I strongly suspect your mate was telling you a load of old shit . As you admit hes an orange bigot, so that would make particular sense.


 
He didn't say his mate was an orange bigot. He said his mate was quite philosophical about his family being burnt out of their home and his brother nearly dying.


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 12, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> they arent doing that because the british system has taught them over the centuries to vent their frustrations on their catholic neighbours as opposed to their betters . The people of the 6 counties didnt devise this system themselves . An imperialist country put it there . Itll only ever change when the imperialists get the fuck out of it and remove the political basis for sectarianism . The British state in Ireland exists only to foster and encourage sectarianism . It owes its very existence to the fostering and maintenance of sectarianism . That situation wont change until theres a completely different political dynamic, an end to colonial rule.


In other words, classic British divide and rule.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> SCUM....



They must be feeling something akin to mild embarrassment because they are claiming it is a hoax!


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)




----------



## likesfish (Jan 12, 2013)

Well ireland can't afford the north and the majority of the north will still kick and scream if forced into the south.
  So nothings changing unless somebody comes up with a better plan.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Well ireland can't afford the north and the majority of the north will still kick and scream if forced into the south.
> So nothings changing unless somebody comes up with a better plan.


 
An All-Ireland referendum??


----------



## likesfish (Jan 12, 2013)

Don't think thats a terribly bright idea at the moment.
    What if the south says no?
 What if the south says yes
But the majority of the north says no? 
   Then theres the money  cant see anybody sane allowing a border vote until its not really a problem.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)




----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2013)

I hadn't realised it was a democratically taken decision - you'd think the unionists would fully support such a thing.



> The council, which now has a nationalist majority, voted to fly the flag at Belfast City Hall on a number of designated days, as opposed to every day of the year.


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20998867


----------



## toggle (Jan 12, 2013)

two sheds said:


> I hadn't realised it was a democratically taken decision - you'd think the unionists would fully support such a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20998867


 
and support democracy?

they don't exactly have a good record of that


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

two sheds said:


> I hadn't realised it was a democratically taken decision - you'd think the unionists would fully support such a thing.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20998867


I don't see why seeing as this place has never had democracy, but anyway,
Yeah it was a council vote, it was actually agreed on 14 or so years ago that a vote would at some stage take place.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> and support democracy?
> 
> they don't exactly have a good record of that


 
... but ... but ... they're 'loyalists' ...


----------



## Manter (Jan 12, 2013)

toggle said:


> in other words, you don't want to bother to look at the evidence of difference because it might conflict with your opinions.
> 
> like the one you have displayed here that labels 'catholics' as perpetrators of violence.


I have NEVER claimed only one side perpetrates violence.  BOTH sides are very heavily represented with extremists and nutters and both sides show horrifically little regard for human life.  Their justifications are different, but in my opinion, just as repellent.  I am NOT on the protestant side, stop making out that is the case- I hate the behaviour on both sides.


----------



## Firky (Jan 12, 2013)

One thing I have learned is you don't really know WTF you are talking about, STFU and read.

Interesting thread, have to say.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

Weird how the fleg will be flying on St. Patricks Day!!!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> fucks sake i forgot who you were . That son of a screw that believes in all that one world ballsology , but who still manages to be a unionist as well .



Are you fucking tripping? I'm neither a unionist or the son of a screw. Nor am I a CTist. Fuck knows who you're mixing me up with.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you fucking tripping? I'm neither a unionist or the son of a screw. Nor am I a CTist. Fuck knows who you're mixing me up with.


it may be revol?


----------



## Firky (Jan 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> Weird how the fleg will be flying on St. Patricks Day!!!


 
Yeh, I thought I had misheard.

Does anyone know why?

I pretend to be an American on March the 17th and bang on about how my great, great, great Grandad got pissed in Dublin before he got on a boat to NYC and how if you cut me I'll bleed green.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> it may be revol?



He isn't a CTist either afaik. No idea what his old man works as.


----------



## Firky (Jan 12, 2013)

Revol's fucking sound. He's not about at the moment so it is a bit unfair to chat shit about him.


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

Just trying to work out who he thinks I am. Didn't realise we couldn't mention people who are elsewhere. He never slipped me a goodbye note!


----------



## Firky (Jan 12, 2013)

Nah, it's a bit unfair to have a go at someone who isn't really around to defend themselves, that's all.

Hang on, he this your the owl? Ha!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> Nah, it's a bit unfair to have a go at someone who isn't really around to defend themselves, that's all.
> 
> Hang on, he this your the owl? Ha!



Well yeah, but how are we to know if he's around or not?


----------



## Firky (Jan 12, 2013)

Because he'd have got himself banned about a dozen pages back by now!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

I'll just check my u75 posters wall chart!


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> Because he'd have got himself banned about a dozen pages back by now!



Actually, fair point.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 12, 2013)

http://www.belfastcity.gov.uk/equality/docs/EQIA-flying-union-flag.doc

Those are the days not sure why st patricks day but


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> Yeh, I thought I had misheard.
> 
> Does anyone know why?
> 
> I pretend to be an American on March the 17th and bang on about how my great, great, great Grandad got pissed in Dublin before he got on a boat to NYC and how if you cut me I'll bleed green.


Ironically its a national holiday here!!!!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 12, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you fucking tripping? I'm neither a unionist or the son of a screw. Nor am I a CTist. Fuck knows who you're mixing me up with.


 
Ian Paisley?


----------



## Citizen66 (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> Because he'd have got himself banned about a dozen pages back by now!



Hang on. Now you're talking about him when he isn't here!


----------



## Manter (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> One thing I have learned is you don't really know WTF you are talking about, STFU and read.
> 
> Interesting thread, have to say.


don't be a cunt firky.  I know as much as some on here, I just happen to hate violence.  Whoever is throwing the bombs.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 12, 2013)

firky said:


> Revol's fucking sound.


 
He's a nasty bullying piece of shit to be fair.



> He's not about at the moment so it is a bit unfair to chat shit about him.


 
I doubt that would bother him if he wanted to have a go at someone, and its' not a rule generally applied to people who've left the boards (for example).


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

two sheds said:


> He's a nasty bullying piece of shit to be fair.
> 
> 
> 
> I doubt that would bother him if he wanted to have a go at someone, and its' not a rule generally applied to people who've left the boards (for example).


Thread topic thataway------------------------>


----------



## connollyist (Jan 12, 2013)

What the Loyalists cannot seem to admit, even if they have realized it is they are serfs to their masters... and what is even worse and seems to be the source of their greatest fear right now is they are no longer required. All this fleg waving, rioting and protesting is a massive tantrum, aimed at making themselves seen... like when your toddler throws a wobbler in the supermarket when you won't buy them a magazine or some sweets. Shame the people of the loyalist Ghetto's seem to have never heard of Wat Tyler...

The Irony is, the free state is quite happily servile to the crown again, both economically and politically. And the stooges in Leinster House, don't even seem to want the spoilt brat. 



> WE CANNOT CONCEIVE OF A FREE IRELAND WITH A SUBJECT WORKING CLASS, WE CANNOT CONCEIVE OF A SUBJECT IRELAND WITH A FREE WORKING CLASS- James Connolly


 
In other words (In My Opionion) we are going round in circles until we can remove ALL imperial power from Ireland .

Thomas Power also came to some pretty accurate conclusions when discussing the concept of a broad front/ mass movement against imperialism (I've taken those I feel are most relevant to the discusion here from where he discusses these concepts) in the fucking brilliant Ta Power Document



> 5/ Recognising that no country can be free and independent while it permits imperialist domination of its economic life, the anti-imperialist front, will oppose all forms of imperialist control over wealth and resources.
> 6/ The front rejects a federal solution and the continued existence of two separates in the 6 and 26 counties as a denial of the right of the Irish people to sovereignty and recognises that the only alternative as being the creation of a 32 democratic republic with a secular constitution.
> 7/ That the front demands the convening of an all Ireland constitutional conference representative of all shades of political opinion in Ireland for the purpose of discussing a democratic and secular constitution would become effective immediately following a total British military and political withdrawal from Ireland.


 
The issuse with the loyalists is they are deliberately blind to these sort of concepts, they've a long history of gouging out their own eyes so they can't recognise what they don't wanna see. They seem to think if they can continue to demonstrate their loyalty to THE FLEG that they will continue to get some sort of better deal, when the only people from their community who have enjoyed any sort of better life than the majority of republicans are their politicians and those who serve them directly. They live in the same poverty, the same oppression as on the other side of the peace wall (and I've been on both sides of that wall, the grass ain't greener on either side of the fence). Of course many of the republicans are trapped by the same problems. It's been put to me before that Sinn Féin have also read the Ta Power Document and have taken only what is useful to bringing power to them as vaguely Center Left Social Democrats. The Socialist end of Republicanism needs to become better at putting forwards its case, although unfortunately the left of Ireland has been as much a victim as the left elsewhere around the world with it's petty infighting and slavery to their own conclusions and positions. The IRSM still puts out some worthwhile analysis and does pick up some worthwhile campaigns. Much of what Éirígí has to say is accurate, in fact to take a quote they have used, in the words of Fintan Lalor “somewhere and somehow, and by somebody, a beginning must be made”.

Ireland needs to fundamentally be changed, as Connolly said in his last Statement 'the British Government has no right in Ireland, never had any right in Ireland, and never can have any right in Ireland, the presence, in any one generation of Irishmen, of even a respectable minority' and my eyes it doesn't matter if that minority is the loyalists, the stooges of Leinster House, Stormont or Westminster... immperalism in Ireland must be fought off what ever its colour or disguise and which ever flag it hides behind.


----------



## N_igma (Jan 12, 2013)

Kawabunga motherfucker


----------



## connollyist (Jan 12, 2013)

Formatting is fucked for some reason and can't seem to fix it...


----------



## connollyist (Jan 12, 2013)

N_igma said:


> Kawabunga motherfucker


My post was influnced by Connolly, Power, Lalor and the freedom of Ireland... was your's influenced by this







?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)




----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

connollyist said:


> My post was influnced by Connolly, Power, Lalor and the freedom of Ireland... was your's influenced by this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think he was actually agreeing with your post!


----------



## connollyist (Jan 12, 2013)

Yeah but my post comes from a man who once tried to persude the landlord of The Foggy Dew to sell me the whole bottle of bucky rather than just a glass... the request was politely refused... only in Glasgow and on occasion Belfast, could you buy bucky at the bar...

Anyways, I'm only playing with N_igma


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

anyone have any idea what's actually going on in Belfast atm?  Particularly east?  Plenty of 'copters about n that, but seems quiet either side of my estate, not police gathering or anything but then I suppose it's nowhere near an 'interface area'


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

Kuso said:


> anyone have any idea what's actually going on in Belfast atm? Particularly east? Plenty of 'copters about n that, but seems quiet either side of my estate, not police gathering or anything but then I suppose it's nowhere near an 'interface area'


Heard from a mate in the Strand a little while ago that it is quiet right now but police still out in numbers.


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

starting to really piss me off now- no one is heading out or up for anything... and see trying to get a smoke...


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2013)

Kuso said:


> starting to really piss me off now- no one is heading out or up for anything... and see trying to get a smoke...


 
Right Boys... that's us away... 'is here's gone way too fuckin far... fuck the fleg... wee Tuso can't buy his drugs cos we're flat out protestin'... wrap it up and let's go home... before the taig drug dealers steal all our customers as well as our fleg...


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2013)

All this OSABATO nonsensense irks me a little.

One of the more distateful practices in Apartheid-era townships was the rubber necklace ANC supporters gave to 'collaborators'. This consisted of a person having their hands tied behind their backs, then to their knees. Then an old tyre was placed around their neck, filled with petrol and the whole thing set alight. A grisly, public execution.

Funnily enough I don't remember too many british (or Irish) lefties condemning the ANC or indeed black people _en masse_ because of this barbaric practice. Nobody said "Well that justifies apartheid then" or "Oh look, black people can be nasty too... one side is clearly as bad as the other"

Yet all kinds of apolitical eejits think it's OK to pop in here and make all kinds of 19th-hole, 2-dimensional, ill-thought-out OSABATO comments here. Frankly, you are embarrassing.


----------



## intersol32 (Jan 12, 2013)

connollyist said:


> What the Loyalists cannot seem to admit, even if they have realized it is they are serfs to their masters... and what is even worse and seems to be the source of their greatest fear right now is they are no longer required. All this fleg waving, rioting and protesting is a massive tantrum, aimed at making themselves seen... like when your toddler throws a wobbler in the supermarket when you won't buy them a magazine or some sweets. Shame the people of the loyalist Ghetto's seem to have never heard of Wat Tyler...
> 
> The Irony is, the free state is quite happily servile to the crown again, both economically and politically. And the stooges in Leinster House, don't even seem to want the spoilt brat.
> 
> ...


 
Absolutely spot on. The Ta Power Document is essential reading, even though it's a fair few years old now it's still a great analysis.

Unfortunately the Left in both Britain and Ireland have (with one or two notable exceptions) been woeful in both their understanding and support for the Irish cause. Basically because it's easier to support the ANC and PLO a few thousand miles away, than any kind of revolutionary movement that's on your own doorstep. Also, the reason being that if you should objectively conclude that Irish Republicanism has any kind of merit or worth it'll be immediately assumed that you're "taking sides" and should prepare yourself for accusations of "tribalism" and sectarianism.

To give a quick example, I was sat in a bar in Belfast City Center a few years ago with some other Republican activists when two members of the SWP walked in. This was just after the murder of Lurgan solicitor Rosemary Nelson. After exchanging pleasantries I asked the pair if the SWP in Belfast were likely to help in the campaigns for both her, and Pat Finucane. At which point one of them turned and said "we're not interested in Republican conspiracy theories" and went on to explain how campaigns against water taxes and the like were more important in "bringing the communities together".


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Right Boys... that's us away... 'is here's gone way too fuckin far... fuck the fleg... wee Tuso can't buy his drugs cos we're flat out protestin'... wrap it up and let's go home... before the taig drug dealers steal all our customers as well as our fleg...



been a fairly big complaint actually, there was nowhere near as much about over xmas and new years as usual- there's people losing big money on that front because of all this


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2013)

good to see _you_ have your priorities right anyway.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 12, 2013)

Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
 As they should


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
> As they should


Me and my Comrades didn't.


----------



## connollyist (Jan 12, 2013)

Can't quote your post Intersol32 cos i'm on my phone and on my way into work, but yeah the words 'Gas and Water' socialism comes to mind for that kinda blinkered leftie?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

LiamO said:


> All this OSABATO nonsensense irks me a little.
> 
> .



what does that mean? (OSABATO)


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

LiamO said:


> good to see _you_ have your priorities right anyway.


I couldn't give a fuck about a flag, a spliff however is a different matter. But I wasn't talking about me, there's people losing big money because they can't move gear as easily ATM, I honestly don't think it'll be too long before that factors into the 'organization' of these protests.


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
> As they should


huh?
So anyone who supports a United Ireland would be lynched???
wow... are u English or from the deep South of the USA....
Yes massah?
feck that....
btw... I thought this thread was about events here, not an excuse to 'paddy bash'?


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 12, 2013)

AKA pseudonym said:


> what does that mean? (OSABATO)


 
guessing but think it's one side as bad as the other


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
> As they should


 
what? What the fucking fuckety fuck fuck?


----------



## AKA pseudonym (Jan 12, 2013)

Kuso said:


> I couldn't give a fuck about a flag, a spliff however is a different matter. But I wasn't talking about me, there's people losing big money because they can't move gear as easily ATM, I honestly don't think it'll be too long before that factors into the 'organization' of these protests.


 
Well the egypytians Shoukri buddy is one of the main driving forces behind recent events.... If the yuffers etc can't shift their gear... expect a bloodbath..


----------



## A380 (Jan 12, 2013)

Just a question for those that have thought about this more than me:

If Scotland does leave the UK would they take one or more of the six counties with them. If there is no more UK there couldn't be a UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore could there?

Who would Loyalists be loyal to then?


----------



## Deareg (Jan 12, 2013)

A380 said:


> Just a question for those that have thought about this more than me:
> 
> If Scotland does leave the UK would they take one or more of the six counties with them. If there is no more UK there couldn't be a UK of Great Britain and Northern Ireland anymore could there?
> 
> Who would Loyalists be loyal to then?


Loyalist are loyal to no one anyway, not even each other.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 12, 2013)

This thread has gone a bit mental, lynchings, smoke and scotland and such. Anyway, worst night of violence yet. Madness of reporting that nationalists attacked loyalists returning from a 'peaceful' protest, that's after 40 days of rioting! Media desperate to make it sectarian. More likely to do with Rangers being in the third division and the scobie loyalist yoof have no mileage in playing Berwick.


----------



## sunny jim (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
> As they should


 
Total fucking bollocks


----------



## LiamO (Jan 12, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Tbf once you started killing brits any fucking leftie who supported pira would get fucking lynched in the uk.
> As they should


 
Welcome to the wonderful, wild and wacky world of likesfish...


----------



## Boru (Jan 12, 2013)

two sheds said:


> ... but ... but ... they're 'loyalists' ...


Sheds, they were outvoted.. the majority on Belfast City Council is now.. whats the word.. 'Not loyalist/unionist'


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> This thread has gone a bit mental, lynchings, smoke and scotland and such. Anyway, worst night of violence yet. Madness of reporting that nationalists attacked loyalists returning from a 'peaceful' protest, that's after 40 days of rioting! Media desperate to make it sectarian. More likely to do with Rangers being in the third division and the scobie loyalist yoof have no mileage in playing Berwick.


 
tonight is? where abouts dya know? tates avenue by any chance?

actually, just seen it on nnc news ni, not tates, but i imaigine broadway will be loads of fun later


----------



## Boru (Jan 12, 2013)

Kuso said:


> tonight is? where abouts dya know? tates avenue by any chance?


Tonight it was returning from City Hall with a bit of bother near short strand and then heading for the station, closing the road, but hey, theirs no trains, just a bus service, trains between connolly and newry, tis back to the days of our youth..


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

regardless of the protest at city hall why were they allowed to 'return home' via the road itself and not footpaths?


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

wonder what the 'peace rally' will be like tomorrow?


----------



## Kuso (Jan 12, 2013)

sorry, but this is hilarious and I'm a bit drunk:


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Unionist majority my arse.


----------



## Boru (Jan 13, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Unionist majority my arse.


Does it really matter if its a green majority, if their politics is capitalism/liberalism / irish govt/uk govt / rich v poor/ same old same old is the dominant feature?


----------



## bolshiebhoy (Jan 13, 2013)

Worth saying that not all Protestants are Unionists and not all Catholics are Nationalists.


----------



## thriller (Jan 13, 2013)

simple way of dealing with this. Shoot the protesting little shites. dead. should be worrying about jobs and the economy. No. they want to protest about a poxy flag. Shoot 'em dead.


----------



## bolshiebhoy (Jan 13, 2013)

I didn't think anyone could make me sympathetic towards the flag protestors but thriller just got me very close. And there is a problem with the way many are reacting to this. We had friends round today, mostly Tory voters and the news was on TV. Someone said use the water cannon on them, they're all unclean little bastards. Everyone nodded agreement and looked over to me as the token Paddy and 'Nationalist' in the room to show their sympathy I think. I ended up defending these fuckers right to protest and asking people to think carefully about what exactly working class Protestants (or Catholics or frigging atheists) have to be thankful for about the new dispensation in NI.


----------



## goldenecitrone (Jan 13, 2013)

thriller said:


> simple way of dealing with this. Shoot the protesting little shites. dead. should be worrying about jobs and the economy. No. they want to protest about a poxy flag. Shoot 'em dead.


 
Tomorrow is Sunday.


----------



## Firky (Jan 13, 2013)

Manter said:


> don't be a cunt firky.  I know as much as some on here, I just happen to hate violence.  Whoever is throwing the bombs.



Interesting that you thought (wrongly) that post was directed t to you. Quite telling.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 13, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Me and my Comrades didn't.


And thats one of the many reasons the left has no relevance in the uk.
 Zero mps
Few councillors never mentioned in the media utterly irrelevant.


----------



## Red Storm (Jan 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> And thats one of the many reasons the left has no relevance in the uk.
> Zero mps
> Few councillors never mentioned in the media utterly irrelevant.


 
So if Deareg was hanged we'd have socialism? 

*plots*


----------



## mdc (Jan 13, 2013)

When are these people going to drag themselves into the 21st century? They are rioting over the flying of a flag that, with a bit of luck, will be redundant in a few years time.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Red Storm said:


> So if Deareg was hanged we'd have socialism?
> 
> *plots*


Oi!, I am gonna be keepin my bleedin eye on you!


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Boru said:


> Does it really matter if its a green majority, if their politics is capitalism/liberalism / irish govt/uk govt / rich v poor/ same old same old is the dominant feature?


Given Irelands history, yes it does matter


----------



## Invicta (Jan 13, 2013)

Civil unrest all over Belfast.. Business at a standstill... Buses and Cars being torched... Police being attacked with petrol bombs... Political party offices being guarded 24/7...          Baton rounds fired last night... 1...    The PSNI need to start looking after the best interests of Norn Iron and stop treating these delinquents like they are in a creche


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

bolshiebhoy said:


> I didn't think anyone could make me sympathetic towards the flag protestors but thriller just got me very close. And there is a problem with the way many are reacting to this. We had friends round today, mostly Tory voters and the news was on TV. Someone said use the water cannon on them, they're all unclean little bastards. Everyone nodded agreement and looked over to me as the token Paddy and 'Nationalist' in the room to show their sympathy I think. I ended up defending these fuckers right to protest and asking people to think carefully about what exactly working class Protestants (or Catholics or frigging atheists) have to be thankful for about the new dispensation in NI.


One wanky post, who would probably say the same if it were nationalists rioting, makes you feel sympathetic towards them? I don't really understand the rest of your post especially the bit about having friends who vote Tory.


----------



## thriller (Jan 13, 2013)

goldenecitrone said:


> Tomorrow is Sunday.


 
great. we can call it happy sunday


----------



## Boru (Jan 13, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Given Irelands history, yes it does matter


 
Ok, we're not talking about Irelands history - we're talking about the flag flying.
It seems that a Green majority is coming in Northern Ireland. The rioters are in the main working class Prod/Loyalist background.
Peace, such as it is, has come from the creation of a Catholic/Green middle class.
There exists both a Catholic/Green and Prod/Loyalist under class.
There exists both a Catholic/Green and Prod/Loyalist middle class who couldn't give a hoot and lives totally separate lives from each other.
There also seems to be the roots of a non-Irish /non-English but just Northern Irish identity - mostly within the middle classes.

Stormont works on a model of capitalism/Liberalism with the support of Irish and English Governments.
Northern Ireland could not support itself on its own and in my opinion will suffer economic hardship when such high levels of funding cease.
It is literally another country, with all that entails, but economically speaking is more like a county or a shire.

The rioters are already economically disadvantaged with low work and education prospects. Such areas exist in Belfast and Craigavon and other areas on the Catholic/Green side. Peace has not changed this - only the hue of their leaders have changed.
The policies of Stormont are Capitalism/Liberal.

This is what i meant when i said under your graph 'what does it matter if?'

Yes, it does matter but a rising tide of Catholic/Green is not a solution. Designated flag flying days has been agreed on councils with Unionist majorities.Belfast City Council could ban the flag altogether as the majority exists.
Is is the nature of this majority that i am observing.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Boru said:


> Ok, we're not talking about Irelands history - we're talking about the flag flying.
> It seems that a Green majority is coming in Northern Ireland. The rioters are in the main working class Prod/Loyalist background.
> Peace, such as it is, has come from the creation of a Catholic/Green middle class.
> There exists both a Catholic/Green and Prod/Loyalist under class.
> ...


I am still not sure what your actual point is but I think that you are wrong in a number of the assumptions that you make, firstly about a growing middle class in this time of recession and whether they are as detached from the national question as you claim.
I am well aware of the background of those taking part and also believe that the issue goes far deeper than the flag for some, the UVF have their own agenda and reasons for taking any chance that they can to flex their muscles, and for others it is merely a chance for a riot, I have seen enough rioting on the nationalist side to know that many only take part for the fun of it.
If there is ever going to be any kind of relevant left wing it will be founded, initially at least in Nationalist areas and strongly opposed in Unionist ones, so for that reason as well I would think the graph is important, not to mention the false argument about Unionist majority in the 6 counties.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 13, 2013)

So anything new in this thread or the usual..


----------



## Boru (Jan 13, 2013)

Deareg said:


> I am still not sure what your actual point is but I think that you are wrong in a number of the assumptions that you make, firstly about a growing middle class in this time of recession and whether they are as detached from the national question as you claim.
> I am well aware of the background of those taking part and also believe that the issue goes far deeper than the flag for some, the UVF have their own agenda and reasons for taking any chance that they can to flex their muscles, and for others it is merely a chance for a riot, I have seen enough rioting on the nationalist side to know that many only take part for the fun of it.
> If there is ever going to be any kind of relevant left wing it will be founded, initially at least in Nationalist areas and strongly opposed in Unionist ones, so for that reason as well I would think the graph is important, not to mention the false argument about Unionist majority in the 6 counties.


 
Hi, Sorry if that was a bit muddled.
There has been a growth of a Catholic/Green middle class since the start of the peace process, indeed since the start of free university education in the late sixties. As for their engagement with the 'national question' i think the growing portion of people who see themselves as Northern Irish is mostly in this Green/Unionist middle class.

My point is/was, (and you seem to agree), that the majority is changing, but even with a green majority is is still the same status quo - it is a capitalist/liberal government, albeit one supported by two other governments.
The rising green tide is not offering socialism of any hue, rather it is supporting the status-quo. It has no other choice at this stage.

There seems to me to be no left in UK or Ireland. We can only change ourselves.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Ax^ said:


> So anything new in this thread or the usual..


It hasn't turned into a shit throwing contest, which is unusual for debates on Ireland.


----------



## Ax^ (Jan 13, 2013)

Ah ok might read it later then


Only saw some cluster fuck with the "ira worked with the nazies" and expected the worse


----------



## likesfish (Jan 13, 2013)

Apart from the comrades are looking to you to commit the ultimate sacrifice to bring in the golden age of socalism.

Not sure you can grow socalism in a soil of stupid


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Not sure you can grow socalism in a soil of stupid


 
You sometimes post things from a (kind of) socialist perspective... thus disproving your own theory.


----------



## Kuso (Jan 13, 2013)

Invicta said:


> Civil unrest all over Belfast.. Business at a standstill... Buses and Cars being torched... Police being attacked with petrol bombs... Political party offices being guarded 24/7... Baton rounds fired last night... 1... The PSNI need to start looking after the best interests of Norn Iron and stop treating these delinquents like they are in a creche



Norn Iron  hate that term


----------



## Kuso (Jan 13, 2013)

peace rally will be happening round about now, i'm still up from last night and i'm in no state for day time crowds.  shame


----------



## likesfish (Jan 13, 2013)

Although the problem in NI is you have two communites that are poor and shat on and rather than recognise they have the same issues.
 They fight over flags and marches


----------



## Kuso (Jan 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Although the problem in NI is you have two communites that are poor and shat on and rather than recognise they have the same issues.
> They fight over flags and marches


 
who to represent them with and tackle those issues without either a unionist or nationalist agenda?  fuck the politics, what about the people?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2013)

thriller said:


> simple way of dealing with this. Shoot the protesting little shites. dead. should be worrying about jobs and the economy. No. they want to protest about a poxy flag. Shoot 'em dead.


 
Because that's worked so well previously, hasn't it? 
And are you going to do the shooting, and then volunteer to defend the lives of people in Northern Ireland when your cretinous acts of murder turn the whole of the six counties into a war zone?

You're as thick as fucking pigshit.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2013)

mdc said:


> When are these people going to drag themselves into the 21st century? They are rioting over the flying of a flag that, with a bit of luck, will be redundant in a few years time.


 
It's not the flag, noob. It's what the flag symbolises for them, and what its absence will also symbolise. These people are having to come to terms with reality. To not expect them to be somewhat alarmed at realising that the Protestant ascendancy is dead, is daft. Far better they get it out of their systems with some riots, than an upsurge in paramilitary activity against republicans and/or those *perceived* to be republican, don't you think?


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2013)

Invicta said:


> Civil unrest all over Belfast.. Business at a standstill... Buses and Cars being torched... Police being attacked with petrol bombs... Political party offices being guarded 24/7... Baton rounds fired last night... 1... The PSNI need to start looking after the best interests of Norn Iron and stop treating these delinquents like they are in a creche


 
RUC are about as likely to play fair as they are to all become honest.


----------



## Kuso (Jan 13, 2013)

PSIRA as they've now been christened


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 13, 2013)

Continuity RUC


----------



## toggle (Jan 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Although the problem in NI is you have two communites that are poor and shat on and rather than recognise they have the same issues.
> They fight over flags and marches


 
yes. that much is obvious.

the effect we are seeing ehre was intentionally created for the benefit of a very small number of unionists. every time it looked like the communities were coming close to working together, someone deliberately stirred up the pot of loyalism. the working class would then fight for the leaders, against their own interests, to stop catholics from getting a slice of the pie.

but that loyalism is now self perpetuating.


----------



## likesfish (Jan 13, 2013)

Unfortunatly defusing this poisionous legacy is almost impossible it would need a gerry or martin type coming from the ranks of the headcases to even start to have some credability.


----------



## connollyist (Jan 13, 2013)

Likefish your adding nothing of depth or even sense to this thread just a flow of barely connected slightly confused posts... yer might be better off leaving the debate?


----------



## toggle (Jan 13, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Unfortunatly defusing this poisionous legacy is almost impossible it would need a gerry or martin type coming from the ranks of the headcases to even start to have some credability.


 
snorts.

gerry, credible in what sence? he's populist, not trustworthy.

but i do get what you're saying. problem seems to be that the leaders are the loudest and biggest fucking idiots of the lot.


----------



## Invicta (Jan 13, 2013)

A good way to sort North-East Ireland out would be to stop segregation of religions in schools. If we grew up together and socialized with the crazies, maybe we could end up "learning them how til behave"


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Invicta said:


> A good way to sort North-East Ireland out would be to stop segregation of religions in schools. If we grew up together and socialized with the crazies, maybe we could end up "learning them how til behave"


My sons girlfriend a few others kids i know went to integrated schools and I heard the sectarianism among the kids was shocking, you can't force people to integrate, without some kind of political settlement it is nigh on impossible.


----------



## Kuso (Jan 13, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> Continuity RUC


 
I can't believe its not the RUC

edit:


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 13, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the flag, noob. It's what the flag symbolises for them, and what its absence will also symbolise. These people are having to come to terms with reality. To not expect them to be somewhat alarmed at realising that the Protestant ascendancy is dead, is daft. Far better they get it out of their systems with some riots, than an upsurge in paramilitary activity against republicans and/or those *perceived* to be republican, don't you think?


 
Depressing.

One would have expected the protests to have died away by now, but if anything, the violence appears to be increasing.

I can understand, to an extent, the anger of the Unionist community, the decision to stop flying the flag was an act of triumphalism by the Council, and unnecessarily provocative. They must have known what would happen, but I would imagine that they did not foresee the scale, and duration of the protests.

If this leads to a repeat of the deadly violence that has plagued Northern Ireland for decades, it will be a sad day.


----------



## thriller (Jan 13, 2013)

If I was a multinational company I would only invest in the nationalist side and sod the cunt unionists and loyalists. These fuckers should be shipped off to Australia.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

thriller said:


> If I was a multinational company I would only invest in the nationalist side and sod the cunt unionists and loyalists. These fuckers should be shipped off to Australia.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

Invicta said:


> A good way to sort North-East Ireland out would be to stop segregation of religions in schools. If we grew up together and socialized with the crazies, maybe we could end up "learning them how til behave"


 
Would you be interested in exploring this further? It's an interesting liberal soundbite but it's not going to happen anytime soon and IMO neither should it.

This would be perfectly feasible and perhaps desirable in Dublin or Doncaster but it is a plain stupid suggestion of rthe North of Irel;and currently


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> snorts.
> 
> gerry, credible in what sence? he's populist, not trustworthy.
> 
> but i do get what you're saying. problem seems to be that the leaders are the loudest and biggest fucking idiots of the lot.


 
I think Likesfish's point (and about one in 20 of his posts is bang on the money - unless he includes a second sentence... the stupidity of which negates the insight of his first) which is that it will require someone form _within_ Loyalism to shift it.

A bit like Gerry and Martin did _from within_ Republicanism.


----------



## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 13, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Would you be interested in exploring this further? It's an interesting liberal soundbite but it's not going to happen anytime soon and IMO neither should it.
> 
> This would be perfectly feasible and perhaps desirable in Dublin or Doncaster but it is a plain stupid suggestion of rthe North of Irel;and currently


 
I'm sure people argued the same in the southern States at some point as well.


----------



## toggle (Jan 13, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Depressing.
> 
> One would have expected the protests to have died away by now, but if anything, the violence appears to be increasing.
> 
> ...


 

interesting that you use this logic. i wonder if you would be so sympathetic if it was nationalists protesting.

you do realise that many nationalists see the british flag flying anywhere on the island as unnecessarily provocative?


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 13, 2013)

On the positive side of all this, unionist/loyalist violence in the seventies was a much bigger beast. After the Sunningdale agreement tens of thousands took to the streets. The Unionist workers strike shut the place down. The fleg protests have brought out a few hundred, a problem still but of a different scale. So progress of a sort i'd say.

Shit, that almost sounded optimistic.


----------



## weepiper (Jan 13, 2013)

We had a 'protest' outside Nicola Sturgeon (SNP Depute First Minister of the Scottish parliament) yesterday. Govan was unmoved.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> interesting that you use this logic. i wonder if you would be so sympathetic if it was nationalists protesting.
> 
> you do realise that many nationalists see the british flag flying anywhere on the island as unnecessarily provocative?


 
Northern Ireland is part of Britain, at least at present. I would regard anyone who rioted as a result of flying the national flag as more than slightly odd.


----------



## Sasaferrato (Jan 13, 2013)

Buckaroo said:


> On the positive side of all this, unionist/loyalist violence in the seventies was a much bigger beast. After the Sunningdale agreement tens of thousands took to the streets. The Unionist workers strike shut the place down. The fleg protests have brought out a few hundred, a problem still but of a different scale. So progress of a sort i'd say.
> 
> Shit, that almost sounded optimistic.


 
 I sincerely hope that you are right. Northern Ireland can do without this shit, especially during a time of economic slowdown.

Anyone who believes that this was not a ' triumphalist '  act by the Nationalists on the Council is being a tad naive. The Council are not blameless in this. Whereas I can understand why they did it, a consequence of Protestant/Unionist domination for decades, it was a foolish thing to do. The policing alone is heading towards £10m, money that could have been better spent elsewhere.

I can understand why the Unionists feel aggrieved, but that does not excuse their behaviour.


----------



## toggle (Jan 13, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Northern Ireland is part of Britain, at least at present. I would regard anyone who rioted as a result of flying the national flag as more than slightly odd.


 
what levels of provocation would lead you to have sympathy with nationalist protestors?


----------



## nino_savatte (Jan 13, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I can understand why the Unionists feel aggrieved, but that does not excuse their behaviour.


 
Surely you mean "Loyalists"? There is a difference, believe it or not.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> I'm sure people argued the same in the southern States at some point as well.


 
do expand. I am struggling to see the correlation.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

toggle said:


> you do realise that many nationalists see the british flag flying anywhere on the island as unnecessarily provocative?


 
No. He does not. The only difference between him and those on the rampage is manners really.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 13, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> I sincerely hope that you are right. Northern Ireland can do without this shit, especially during a time of economic slowdown.
> 
> Anyone who believes that this was not a ' triumphalist ' act by the Nationalists on the Council is being a tad naive. The Council are not blameless in this. Whereas I can understand why they did it, a consequence of Protestant/Unionist domination for decades, it was a foolish thing to do. The policing alone is heading towards £10m, money that could have been better spent elsewhere.
> 
> I can understand why the Unionists feel aggrieved, but that does not excuse their behaviour.


 
But it wasn't a 'triumpalist' act by nationalists on the council, it was the Alliance party that held the sway, the 'fleg' makers, which is why they're getting death threats. It was on the cards fifteen years ago, never a big priority for Nationalists in the overall scheme of things. I think it says something about the differant agendas, power sharing democracy vs identity. Working class unionists/loyalists feel they got sold out by their own side and some of them are angry about it. Not doing it would have been more provocative but I doubt it would have had the same consequences because Nationalists/Republicans learnt to pick their battles wisely.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

Sasaferrato said:


> Anyone who believes that this was not a ' triumphalist ' act by the Nationalists on the Council is being a tad naive.


 
Are you really this thick? Seriously?

The Alliance Party - the cheese and wine unionist party - voted FOR the decision (So did the Progressive Unionist Party nearly 20 years ago). This is simply tidying up little bits of unfinished business leftover from the out-workings of the GFA.

As VP pointed out above. It's not about the fleg. Never was, never will be. It's about letting the Croppies know who the bosses are... only they are not ant more.

Triumphalist me hole.


----------



## mdc (Jan 13, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> It's not the flag, noob. It's what the flag symbolises for them, and what its absence will also symbolise. These people are having to come to terms with reality. To not expect them to be somewhat alarmed at realising that the Protestant ascendancy is dead, is daft. Far better they get it out of their systems with some riots, than an upsurge in paramilitary activity against republicans and/or those *perceived* to be republican, don't you think?



That is not going to happen though is it? They have already threatened attacks on elected representatives, if they do not get their way they will continue and even escalate their violence. 

You are right though that it does have more to do with symbolism than just a flag but hey they world moves on, there is so much more to worry about than whether you are living under a red white and blue flag, or no particular flag at all.

The working classes should all be standing together, no matter what fictitious god they believe in or sect they are members of. If we don't stand together we will be trampled under foot, smashed into oblivion or enslaved on pitiful wages that mean no power to change our lives for the better. 

Sorry, almost went into a rant there


----------



## mdc (Jan 13, 2013)

weepiper said:


> We had a 'protest' outside Nicola Sturgeon (SNP Depute First Minister of the Scottish parliament) yesterday. Govan was unmoved.




The sooner Scotland separates itself constitutionally from NI the better. I get really annoyed with my fellow scots that seem to think that Belfast is in Scotland or Glasgow is in Northern Ireland.


----------



## Buckaroo (Jan 13, 2013)

mdc said:


> The sooner Scotland separates itself constitutionally from NI the better. I get really annoyed with my fellow scots that seem to think that Belfast is in Scotland or Glasgow is in Northern Ireland.


 
Just interested but do you think an Independent Scotland should leave Sterling and join the Euro?


----------



## mdc (Jan 13, 2013)

It would probably be Sterling for a good while but eventually I think the Euro would be taken on, once it's more stable.


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

Kuso said:


> PSIRA as they've now been christened


 
You know you are getting old when police men start looking... catholic.

Many's a true word spoken in jest it would seem.... who would've had the WTs down as fortune tellers?


----------



## LiamO (Jan 13, 2013)

nino_savatte said:


> Surely you mean "Loyalists"? There is a difference, believe it or not.


 
Yes. manners ands style.

loyalists are honest, straight-up, working-class unionists... generally I would prefer them over a sneaky, middle-class, whiny unionist any day of the week.


----------



## Deareg (Jan 13, 2013)

Just heard that the police have today gone around a number of houses in the Nationalist Ardoyne and cautioned people for taking part in a silent protest on the 3rd of December against Derry apprentice boys being allowed to parade past a flashpoint interface to a bus that they had previously arranged to wait further down the road for them, there was no trouble or even placards, the residents just stood in silence as they marched past.

I can't help but get the impression that the police over here go out of their way to be cunts to one community.


----------



## two sheds (Jan 13, 2013)

Yes interesting comparison between police handling of all this against that of the 'riots'.


----------



## ViolentPanda (Jan 13, 2013)

mdc said:


> That is not going to happen though is it? They have already threatened attacks on elected representatives, if they do not get their way they will continue and even escalate their violence.


 
Will they? How can you be sure? It's not as if Westminster will fall in behind them like they did once "The Troubles" bedded in. There's no mileage in Westminster getting the British army involved in defending the unionists. Even the most bumptious Tories have forgotten that they're the Conservative and Unionist Party.



> You are right though that it does have more to do with symbolism than just a flag but hey they world moves on, there is so much more to worry about than whether you are living under a red white and blue flag, or no particular flag at all.


 
Of course there is, but this is there and now, in their faces. It's not abstract politics, it's what they perceive to be salt rubbed in their wounds.



> The working classes should all be standing together, no matter what fictitious god they believe in or sect they are members of. If we don't stand together we will be trampled under foot, smashed into oblivion or enslaved on pitiful wages that mean no power to change our lives for the better.
> 
> Sorry, almost went into a rant there


 
There's always power to change. It merely depends on the price you're willing to pay/what you're prepared to lose in order for change to happen. Not enough people are prepared to stand up, yet. They may change their minds come the summer, when even more cuts will have bedded in.


----------



## mdc (Jan 14, 2013)

ViolentPanda said:


> Will they? How can you be sure? It's not as if Westminster will fall in behind them like they did once "The Troubles" bedded in. There's no mileage in Westminster getting the British army involved in defending the unionists. Even the most bumptious Tories have forgotten that they're the Conservative and Unionist Party.
> 
> I think I am talking from experience, it's pretty much been the story of NI that one of the communities don't get their way so the usual violent minority set out on a campaign of violence. Although I was glad to read in the guardian this morning that there were demonstrations by people demanding that the rioters stop.
> 
> ...



I hope you're right but, and again I feel that I speak from experience here, the UK government have become adept at using the media to rubbish both individuals, communities and other disparate parts of society that may raise their heads above the parapit to stand up for themselves.


----------



## seeformiles (Jan 14, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> i personally find this account very difficult to believe . In the late 1960s the IRA in belfast were virtually moribund . They didnt even have the weapons to defend nationalist areas let alone make incursions into the shankill road to burn sections of the population out . There are endless accounts of that era to back that assertion up , along with the evidence of entire nationalist districts from the lower falls to the ardoyne put to the torch with nothing to defnd them against ornage mobs puring out of the shankill . Ive never once heard of republican mobs descending onto the shankill road to burn homes, not once . And particularly not then . I strongly suspect your mate was telling you a load of old shit . As you admit hes an orange bigot, so that would make particular sense. The B specials, C specials, RUC ,Orange order etc must have been curiously asleep when this previously unheard of republican assault on the shankill road occured .
> Worth bearing in mind that at the time your mate claims republicans burned out houses in the upper shankill ardoyne was being defended from orange mobs by little more than a .22 rifle and a legally held shotgun .
> 
> Thats not to claim for a second that individual republicans and those using republicanism as a flag of sectarian convenience have not committed heinous sectarian acts down the years . Simply that your mates account sounds like a load of shit due to the fact of it being a distinct physical impossibility during that particular period .


 
You can certainly dispute his account - he was only 4 when it happened so he really didn't have a great deal to do with it and I may even have the dates wrong. I would like to ask him to verify things but unfortunately he died nearly 20 years ago so that rather rules it out. Btw I never said he was "an Orange bigot" - his parents may have fallen into that category for whatever reason but he was remarkably prejudice free - remarkable since most of his immediate neighbours were active UVF. Growing up nearby, I know that it was best to keep the religion of some of your friends and some of your own personal views secret from the real bigots - esp when they came round pubs and businesses to extort  collect money for "the cause".


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## Garek (Jan 14, 2013)

Interesting opinion. Not sure what I make of it yet.


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## Ld222 (Jan 14, 2013)

Short Strand being attacked tonight again.



> Buses suspended amid fresh trouble
> Published Monday, 14 January 2013
> 
> All buses have been suspended in east Belfast after fresh disorder erupted in the area on Monday night.
> ...


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## Deareg (Jan 14, 2013)

I hear homes in the Strand have been petrol bombed and St Mathews vandalised with paint.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2013)

Cunts should be tattoed with tricolours then they can beat one another up .
   Is anyone defending these gits?


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## LiamO (Jan 15, 2013)

If you contrast the way this has rumbled on and on as opposed to exploding like, say, Drumcree... I suppose you could say it represents an expression of changed times.

I have resisted posting this til now for fear of tempting fate, but the 'traditional' loyalist response to perceived slight or threat has usually been "Let's stiff a taig".

Whether that means murdering british-born and bred taxi diver Michael McGoldrick (apparently as a 'birthday present ' for Billy Wright) or burning alive the three Quinn children as they lay sleeping in their beds... it alll usually ends very badly for some unfortunate catholic(s).

That may yet happen here... but I think those with the capability (to match the longing) for such an action realise that times have changed and the ripple-out would not be good for them.

I do not blame the protesters. I do not blame the rioters. I lay the blame firmly at the door or unionism's so-called leaders who have perpetually portrayed every single step of the journey towards compromise as a defeat.

I do not agree with this article... http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0114/1224328803542.html originally posted above. I think it is fundamentally flawed and self-serving.


But I think it is a shocking dereliction of duty on the part of unionist and loyalist leaders that they never use such terms when addressing their own delinquent constituency.


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## Garek (Jan 15, 2013)

LiamO said:


> If you contrast the way this has rumbled on and on as opposed to exploding like, say, Drumcree... I suppose you could say it represents an expression of changed times.
> 
> I have resisted posting this til now for fear of tempting fate, but the 'traditional' loyalist response to perceived slight or threat has usually been "Let's stiff a taig".
> 
> ...


 
Could you explain in more detail what you issue are with the article? I personally think it is a weird thing for him to claim 'Unionism has won'. if it had the UUP would still be maintaining a one party Protestant state!

I certainly agree with you on the bit I have 'bolded'.


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## LiamO (Jan 15, 2013)

Haven't time to really get into this but basically republicans have worked hard (many would argue too hard) on making compromises which may 'stick in the craw' more palatable... of seeking positives where people may be inclined to find negatives. Thus each new compromise is framed as a step on the road to eventual unity.

Unionists on the other hand have worked hard on buttressing their traditional 'not an inch' stance. Thus every compromise is framed and denounced as a betrayal and a sell-out of their (undefined and often completely random) 'britishness'.

So even an article that seeks to highlight the benefits of the GFA for Unionist people does so in triumphalist terms and provocative point scoring.

I think the basic issue is that the GFA creates space for dialogue and for thinking - and unionism/loyalism still sees both of these as dangerous, thin-end-of-the-wedge concepts.

Hence all this raging at the dying light nonsense of recent weeks.

Incidentally, I see prominent UDA figures publicly suggesting the current strategy is not a good one and that they should stop. I wish I could say this marks the beginning of the emergence of effective leadership. But I suspect they have simply been bought off and are now simply turning off the tap they chose to turn on a few weeks ago. Until the next time.

Were I a cynic I might suggest the _entire strategy/pantomime_ was planned and encouraged by the DUP to make their (inevitable, forthcoming) hard-line attitude and backtracking seems relatively reasonable and an attempt to seek to stop the 'understandable but wrong' violence... which they are absolutely complicit in encouraging.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2013)

Nobody "won"
 Pira didnt achieve their aims
 Unionism didnt crush the taigs.
 UK goverment didnt manage to palm the whole sorry mess off onto someone else.
   The retarded thing is other councils in Ni with a unionist majority have agreed to the limited flag flying and no riots or protest.

The unionist veto is bullshit majority of people in the north still want to be british until that changes  no deal.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2013)

I think the basic issue is that the GFA creates space for dialogue and for thinking - and unionism/loyalism still sees both of these as dangerous, thin-end-of-the-wedge concepts.

Exactly


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## toggle (Jan 15, 2013)

LiamO said:


> Haven't time to really get into this but basically republicans have worked hard (many would argue too hard) on making compromises which may 'stick in the craw' more palatable... of seeking positives where people may be inclined to find negatives. Thus each new compromise is framed as a step on the road to eventual unity.
> 
> Unionists on the other hand have worked hard on buttressing their traditional 'not an inch' stance. Thus every compromise is framed and denounced as a betrayal and a sell-out of their (undefined and often completely random) 'britishness'.
> 
> ...


 
and in the meantime, they are treated with kid gloves. more compromise is suggested. because they must be kept happy. and they play the same fucking song over and over again cause it works every fucking time.


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## likesfish (Jan 15, 2013)

Unfortunatly beating some sense into them isnt going to work.
 Baton rounds have been used what do you want bloody sunday 2. Because that worked soooooooo well last time didnt it


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 15, 2013)

likesfish said:


> The unionist veto is bullshit majority of people in the north still want to be british until that changes no deal.


 
I dont think 'a majority want to be british'. Its more like a majority dont want to be part of the republic of ireland. I would say the trajectory for northern ireland is - as in scotland - a steadily increasing level of devolution from the UK government, with an increasing level of joint political-programmes with the republic. Its the internal logic of the situation with the republicans steadily increasing their political influence via the ballot box. The hardline loyalists sense this and fear it - hence their regular strops.


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## Fedayn (Jan 15, 2013)

Tommy McKearney's take on recent events.


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## Spanky Longhorn (Jan 15, 2013)

likesfish said:


> Nobody "won"
> Pira didnt achieve their aims
> Unionism didnt crush the taigs.
> UK goverment didnt manage to palm the whole sorry mess off onto someone else.
> ...


 
The winners were the people who got various others to sign up to and support the GFA. Blair and Mowlem included.


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## LiamO (Jan 16, 2013)

Fedayn said:


> Tommy McKearney's take on recent events.


 
Tommy is bang on the money.

All those unionist 'leaders' peddling this particular vein of bullshit the last few weeks also know this. They just deliberately choose to ignore it because it directly, conclusively, exposes the false sense of 'hurt' they are keen to foster and harvest.

Cunts.

They are right about one thing though. 'The Taigs' _do_ get a disproportionate amount of EU grant money - and the historical reasons for that are yet another indictment of the lack of leadership amongst unionists and the recalcitrant stupidity of loyalists.


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## likesfish (Jan 16, 2013)

Spanky Longhorn said:


> The winners were the people who got various others to sign up to and support the GFA. Blair and Mowlem included.


 
Plus the couple of hundred people who are still alive and  unmaimed


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## Deareg (Jan 17, 2013)

Loyalists and their mouthpieces are continually bleating (and rioting) about their culture being threatened and their voices not being heard and meanwhile in Derry in the run-up to the anniversary of Bloody Sunday they erect two Parachute regiment flags that can be quite clearly seen from the Bogside area where 14 people were murdered by that very same regiment.


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## cemertyone (Jan 17, 2013)

Deareg said:


> Loyalists and their mouthpieces are continually bleating (and rioting) about their culture being threatened and their voices not being heard and meanwhile in Derry in the run-up to the anniversary of Bloody Sunday they erect two Parachute regiment flags that can be quite clearly seen from the Bogside area where 14 people were murdered by that very same regiment.


 
Whats worse than that..is that the very social depravition that they alude to...is ten times worse in nationalist areas....
i live in Sandy Row ( a totally unioinst area...and there days of working in the ship yard and makies are over)...its like there striking out at all and sundry.....so now you understnd what catholics have had to deal with for the last 40 years..
Its not our fault if your kids our not doing well at school ..its not OUR fault if the jobs at the ship yard are not there any more....
DONT BLAME us because because the DUP and THE UUP dont represent your concerns...
DONT petrol our homes because you cant get off your asses and CHANGE..
Beflast of 20013 ....is not Carsons belfast of 1913...if the unionist political class cant bring ( Marxs LUmpen proletairt with them )....stop blaming the catholics you fuckers.....


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## Garek (Jan 17, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> I dont think 'a majority want to be british'. Its more like a majority dont want to be part of the republic of ireland. I would say the trajectory for northern ireland is - as in scotland - a steadily increasing level of devolution from the UK government, with an increasing level of joint political-programmes with the republic. Its the internal logic of the situation with the republicans steadily increasing their political influence via the ballot box. The hardline loyalists sense this and fear it - hence their regular strops.


 
The irony being that prior to '72 the north of Ireland had a level of autonomy that the Scottish Nationalists dream of.


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## Deareg (Jan 17, 2013)




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## Buckaroo (Jan 17, 2013)

“I am young, I am twenty years old; yet I know nothing of life but despair, death, fear, and fatuous superficiality cast over an abyss of sorrow. I see how peoples are set against one another, and in silence, unknowingly, foolishly, obediently, innocently slay one another.”

All quiet on the Western front?


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## N_igma (Jan 18, 2013)

Cemerytone - You live in sandy row? Fair play to ya wouldn't step foot in the place!


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## Deareg (Jan 18, 2013)

N_igma said:


> Cemerytone - You live in sandy row? Fair play to ya wouldn't step foot in the place!


There are a few mixed apartment blocks in and around Sandy Row now. Don't you remember the way the silly cunts reacted 7 or 8 years ago when some student hung a tri colour out his window?


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## N_igma (Jan 18, 2013)

Aye remember that alright. Still it's a taig no go area in my eyes. Although I do know there's a few apartment blocks there.


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 18, 2013)

N_igma said:


> Cemerytone - You live in sandy row? Fair play to ya wouldn't step foot in the place!


 
Took a wrong turn down there trying to get to the bus station a few years ago. Not a pleasant stroll. I remember hairs standing up on the back of my neck and thinking 'oh. fuck'.


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## N_igma (Jan 18, 2013)

Aye that mural has been taken down now but it's very forbiding.


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## CyberRose (Jan 20, 2013)

Belfast Council obviously aren't quite up with the latest fashion trends...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-21082793


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## Casually Red (Jan 20, 2013)

Garek said:


> Interesting opinion. Not sure what I make of it yet.


 
theres very little there that Id disagree with , a fairly succinct appraisal and analysis . Blairs spin doctor Alaisdair Campbell said the very same thing in his autobography when covering the issues surrounding the Belfast treaty and the reactions of the respective parties . He summed it up fairly well as the unionists being too stupid to realise theyd won completely, and the sinn fein leadership being too clever to admit theyd lost hands down . By that stage Blair and his cheif spy and cheif of staff Johnathon Powell of the foreign office were actually dictating word for word gerry adams speeches , which he was repeating verbatim to the party faithful as if it was a cunning ploy of his own that was outfoxing the brits . Powells autobiography and the BBC documentary accompanying it rubbed it in none too subtley , although all that still whooshes over the heads of the lumpen elements on both sides who still havent actually read the text of the fucking treaty . The very concept of republican seperatism, whether armed or pacifist in nature was completely destroyed as a political force and ethos by the Belfast treaty . Instead what you have is unionist anger being interpreted by nationalists as somehow evidence that theyve won something . Utterly idiotic , just as idiotic as the outraged unionists .

Go to the 18.50 minute mark of this senior MI6 cheifs speech




In order to assist Adams to persuade his base that theyd actually won something it required the patronage of the british government, the paid jobs for the party hacks and the confident and assured wafffling speeches about a never never land being just over the horizon to keep the deceit going . While having an anaesthetising effect on Adams support base it in turn has an inflaming effect on the unionist base , making them feel like losers . They see a few sinn fein hacks in fancy suits with good jobs and immediately assume that all the catholic population have them , and so their resent ment periodically erupts .

The british state in the north simply cannot be reformed, it simply perpetuates sectarian poison and has to go .


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## Casually Red (Jan 20, 2013)

LiamO said:


> I do not agree with this article... http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2013/0114/1224328803542.html originally posted above. I think it is fundamentally flawed and self-serving.
> 
> .


 
its , like it or not, factually correct and you dont point out where its factually incorrect . Go read the Belfast treaty and see what that says about British sovereignty in Ireland . Se what Blair was talking about with his "triple locks" as regards to British sovereignty in Ireland . Its fully legitmate and the Irish people have no right to exercise sovereignty over their national territory under it, thats illegitmate and indeed criminal . British sovereignty, British guns and British violence are all accepted as wholly lawful and legitmate , Irish resistance criminaI ( ten men starved to death asserting otherwise, supported by many who eschewed IRA/INLA violence but who still viewed Britians occupation as criminal and illegitmate) .

Irish democracy - the irish people deciding their own future as a unit - is completely undemocratic under it . Instead a minority veto - unionist- trumps it as a concept, defined ridiculously as " the principle of consentt". Its still the same stinking rotten undemocratic unionst veto , but nationalist leaders have given it a nicer sounding name and had their followers swallow it.

It also defines the unionist population as British and not Irish , cementing divisions that republicanism always asserted were artifical and delibertely fostered by imperialism to divide the Irish people . Its the uncontested triumph of British sovereignty over Irish sovereignty in Ireland, and a total ideological defeat for Irish republicanism as a political ethos . Everything asserted in the 1916 proclamation and our declaration of independence has been completely delegitimised as a political concept and principle , and they are the ideological foundation stones of republican seperatism . They lie in ruins, all that was asserted as a fundmantal right of the Irish people is now gone. What we have instead is constitutional nationalism of the Redmondite and Hume variety taking precedence over a democratic republican ethos . Irish politics being practised within the confines of a British constitutional apparatus, as opposed to Irish politics challenging the legitimacy of a British constitution in Ireland, and asserting Irish democracy and the right of the Irish people to the sole ownership of Ireland as the sole legitmate constitutional power in Ireland . Thats gone now, replaced by a sectarian chicken coop which derives its sovereign authority from westminster and not the Irish people themselves.

British imperialism won the ideological battle, and Irish constituional nationalism as been its willing and preferred accomplice in that ideological war against Irish republicanism . The union has never been safer and the article points that out fairly well . As does the belfast treaty if people actually bother to read it .


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## Casually Red (Jan 20, 2013)

now is that 2 sugars or one in your tea ?


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## Casually Red (Jan 20, 2013)

[quote="Kaka Tim, post: 11873525,


> Yes sectariansim has been institutionalised - and its in the interests of both sets of poltical leaders to keep it that way.


 
the institutions derive their sovereign authority, their funding ,thei manner in which their constituted , their very existence solely from westminster decrees and British military might . Therefore its primarily in the interests of the organ grinders as opposed to the monkeys . Your still peddling this "honest broker, piggy in the middle" bollocks





> So you think they should restart the armed struggle? Really?


 
it already has been restarted . Me pointing out its ineviatable that it will escalate, thanks to the fucking mess in the north of Ireland isnt me wanting to start one . Its already there .



> And this 'colaboration' is seen by the overwhelming majority as infinitely superior to the shit that went before. Becasue now catholics are not routinely having there doors kicked in by squaddies and being marched off to long kesh. The present situation is fraught with contradictoins, tensions and fudges and it has instituionalised sectarianism - so what is the pragamatic progressive alternative?


 
nationalists are still having their doors put in and being marched off to maghaberry by locally recruited british forces . Squaddies stopped routine arrests in the mid 1970s and the RUC were given primcy in this field, with the british army in a supporting role . Today the locally recruited forces still cannot live in nationalist areas without facing almost certain assassination , not to mention ostracisation and hostility . They travel routinely in heavily armoured vehicles, they are armed to the teeth in order to carry out routine duties . As yet they dont require military back up to patrol, or deliver court summons . That could change , and goven Irish historymost likely will at some point in future .
The progressive alternative to occupying and dividing a country while cementing sectarian divisions youve created in the first place is - by any idiots standards- not to . I realise im dealing with a mindset common yo British imperialism, which cant believe anyone would have an objection to their actual right to do this in the first place as if its perfectly natural and normal . But the fact is its not, its an act of criminal aggression against another weaker nation .

PS you dont have an automatic right to win the world cup either







> Unification with the republic? Yes or No? If not that - what?


 
how one dimensional is your mind ? Irish national unity does not have to be confined to a simple extension ofthe 26 county irish state over the entire island , republicans have never argued for this . The concept of its dissolution within an Irish constitutional framework seems to completely elude you . The notion of the Irish people being able to draft their own constituional future seems to elude you . Yet you lecture on progressive pragmatism. There are all sorts of alternatives for the Irish people to decide on . But it must be their decision free from foreign interference and threats.









> Most of the poeple of northern ireland do not recognise themselves as suffering under britsh imperialism. Perhaps they lack your level of enlightenment. Perhaps you should join up with the Cornish nationalists who are simarly suffering. Or maybe the posion at the heart of the system is romantic nationalism - particuarly afflicting the loyalists communities but also a few nationalist headbangers who want to go back to the simplicites of living directly under the guns.


 
its an imperialist system created and sustained by an imperialist power . Which you prefer to insist is the honest broker and piggy in the middle . As it has always insisted in public while fomenting mayhem and murder in the background. Your entire argument is completely contradicotory , not to mention reactionary .






> Well half the nations of the world only exist because of imperialism and sectarianism - but we are where we are.


 
occupying how many of them at present ? Britian has a right to occupy someones countyr because it always has done that sort of thing ? fucking hell .



> Any progressive way forward in northern ireland has to be based on promoting anti-sectarianism and cross community working class solidarity. Anything else is doomed to deepen the dividing lines. Or have the prods just got to lump it cos they had it there way up till now and its payback time?


 
what the fuck are you rambling about ? thats basically unintelligible . The political conditions for successfully countering sectarian politics can only be acheived by addressing the issue which sustains sectarianism in the first place . That would seem to be pretty obvious, but its plainly way over your head .






> Its owned by the fucking banks - just like the rest of Europe.[


 
you are the person repeatedly insisting the Irish people have no right to sovereign ownership of their country in the first place . Youd sit well with them . Imperialism and international capitalism are common bedfellows with a common enemy .

But sure we are where we are , eh ?[/quote]


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## Casually Red (Jan 20, 2013)

Citizen66 said:


> Are you fucking tripping? I'm neither a unionist or the son of a screw. Nor am I a CTist. Fuck knows who you're mixing me up with.


 
sincere apologies, i mixed you up with some other punter with 60 something after his name


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## LiamO (Jan 21, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> sincere apologies, i mixed you up with some other punter with 60 something after his name


 
and if you were too drunk to differentiate between citizen66 and revol68 you really should not have been posting.

And I take one sugar - but as _you're_ making it, put three in as it may be a little bitter.


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## Kaka Tim (Jan 21, 2013)

> the institutions derive their sovereign authority, their funding ,thei manner in which their constituted , their very existence solely from westminster decrees and British military might . Therefore its primarily in the interests of the organ grinders as opposed to the monkeys . Your still peddling this "honest broker, piggy in the middle" bollocks


 
The institutions were shaped by the GFA - the nature of which was determined by the politics on the ground - which included the influence of westminster, but also that of the loyalists and sien fein. Its a messy compromise, its instutionalised sectariansim but its pretty much stopped the violence. I haven't met a single person from northern ireland who wants to go back to pre-GFA. Except you. And Im not peddling any thing.








> it already has been restarted . Me pointing out its ineviatable that it will escalate, thanks to the fucking mess in the north of Ireland isnt me wanting to start one . Its already there .
> Nationalists are still having their doors put in and being marched off to maghaberry by locally recruited british forces . Squaddies stopped routine arrests in the mid 1970s and the RUC were given primcy in this field, with the british army in a supporting role . Today the locally recruited forces still cannot live in nationalist areas without facing almost certain assassination , not to mention ostracisation and hostility . They travel routinely in heavily armoured vehicles, they are armed to the teeth in order to carry out routine duties . As yet they dont require military back up to patrol, or deliver court summons . That could change , and goven Irish historymost likely will at some point in future .


 

The aggro there now is nothing like it was on the scale of the troubles - nor is it getting noticeably worse - despite the best efforts of the republican and loyalist headbangers. Nor are the divisions that drove the conflict as pronounced - the unionist supremacy - with all its gerrymandering and blatantly sectarian employment and housing policies - enforced by violence and ultimately by the british army.




> The progressive alternative to occupying and dividing a country while cementing sectarian divisions youve created in the first place is - by any idiots standards- not to . I realise im dealing with a mindset common yo British imperialism, which cant believe anyone would have an objection to their actual right to do this in the first place as if its perfectly natural and normal . But the fact is its not, its an act of criminal aggression against another weaker nation .
> 
> PS you dont have an automatic right to win the world cup either


 

This just in - I am not the british government. Or is anyone you disagree with a british imperialist? Or should I start having a go at you for killing all those shoppers in Omargh?

And what about the prods? Ireland is not kept divided by an occupying army - its divided because a significant chunk of the population of ulster dont want to join the republic and would have gone utterly apeshit if this had happened in 1926 - Ireland would have faced a full blown, drawn out civil war that would have destroyed the republic at birth.



> how one dimensional is your mind ? Irish national unity does not have to be confined to a simple extension ofthe 26 county irish state over the entire island , republicans have never argued for this . The concept of its dissolution within an Irish constitutional framework seems to completely elude you . The notion of the Irish people being able to draft their own constituional future seems to elude you . Yet you lecture on progressive pragmatism. There are all sorts of alternatives for the Irish people to decide on . But it must be their decision free from foreign interference and threats.


 
So not joining with the republic then? Something different but ill defined. How are the loyalists included? Is there consent required or do they have to just have to lump it?




> its an imperialist system created and sustained by an imperialist power . Which you prefer to insist is the honest broker and piggy in the middle . As it has always insisted in public while fomenting mayhem and murder in the background. Your entire argument is completely contradictory , not to mention reactionary


 

No Im still not the british government and have never fermented anything more sinister than some diassapoionting home made beer.




> what the fuck are you rambling about ? thats basically unintelligible . The political conditions for successfully countering sectarian politics can only be acheived by addressing the issue which sustains sectarianism in the first place . That would seem to be pretty obvious, but its plainly way over your head .


 
Whats sustaining sectarianism now? The political parties - because it the basis of their power. Separate community centres, seperate fucking bus stops, seperate housing and education. Its bullshit and until its addressed at ground level by the people of both communities no progress can be made.





> you are the person repeatedly insisting the Irish people have no right to sovereign ownership of their country in the first place . Youd sit well with them . Imperialism and international capitalism are common bedfellows with a common enemy .
> 
> But sure we are where we are , eh ?


 

Stop being so fucking infantile. If I dont support armed struggle I support imperialism? Is that it?
And the irish people on both sides of the border have as much soverign ownership of thier country as the people in the rest of the british isles - Fuck all.

Your support for Irish nationalism consistently side steps the question of what to do about the protestants by pretending they dont exist. Unless you have their consent for whatever new nation you envisage, then northern ireland will remain part of the UK. Thats not supporting imperialism - thats just the facts on the ground.

The activities of RIRA and the other headbangers will achieve nothing but feed the loyalist siege mentality and bring about the violent supression of the catholic community (you'd like that would you?). The PIRA could claim with _some_ legitimacy to be defending nationalist areas, but the present day splinter groups are just making it shit for everyone because they cant leave the comfort blanket of the cause, the romance, the songs, the martyrs and all that old shite that stops people actually thinking.
They are narcissistic cunts who are trying to drag the north back to 1972 and just as deluded as the knuckle draggers on the other side.[/quote]


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## LiamO (Jan 21, 2013)

Read a lot about this but only just watched it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b01pwdcf/The_Nolan_Show_Series_2_Episode_6/

 Loyalist 'leaders'

 Unionist 'leaders'

Still peddling the same old tired bullshit to their own people.

Gerry Kelly does really well considering how the audience was made up. Yer man off Blogger O'Toole makes aright cunt of gee-off-ray Donaldson @ 25.00

And David Ford hits the nail on the head at 38.00... this whole thing is being orchestrated by unionist politicians for electoral gain. Once again stupid loyalist attck dogs doing their master's bidding... til the master shortens the leash again.


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## frogwoman (Jan 21, 2013)




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## DotCommunist (Jan 21, 2013)

Unionist cat is unionist


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## weepiper (Jan 21, 2013)

frogwoman said:


> View attachment 27910


 
separated at birth


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## cemertyone (Jan 22, 2013)

N_igma said:


> Cemerytone - You live in sandy row? Fair play to ya wouldn't step foot in the place!


 
Ah well we (and i mean by that nationalists in general) have to reach out to the protestant working class people and let them know they have nothing to fear from nationalism..in fact we have more in common with each other than a unionist from sandy row has in common with some one from clapham...we are sharing the same geographical space but were miles apart (at the minute)...as working class protestant political politics develops (and its slow i agree)...theres opportuninty for change...
I would much rather be speaking to Jim Wilson than Sammy wilson...
But last night was a perfect example of how things dont change..
On the junction of the lisburn Road/sandy Road..50 people came to block the road ( 30 of them were 15-20 years old ) with about five adults in tow
there where 7 PSNI officers jeeps there with about 35 officers in tow..after telling them they were breaking the law....the PSNI officers accepted tea and coffee from the "protesters" bought from the spar at the corner and were laughing and joking with them fro the hour that they blocked the road..
The most desturbing thing about the night was when a doctor (who tried to get through the road block)tothe hosipital 100 yards up the road had to produce his ID to three 14 year old children to allow him to get to the hosipital...while 20 PSNI officers stood 20 feet away...
i was shocked and disgusted so much i went down to speak to the officer in charge to make a complaint..i told him i had it on video....ive made a compliant this morning to the police complants commission...He told me to FUCK off and mind my own business
Im gonna fuck him he didnt realise i was video the whole proceddings....


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## cemertyone (Jan 22, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> sincere apologies, i mixed you up with some other punter with 60 something after his name


 
thats revol 66..and she dont post here after the prison officer got stiffed....


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## DotCommunist (Jan 22, 2013)

68 you'll find


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## LiamO (Jan 22, 2013)

.


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## Deareg (Jan 22, 2013)

.


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## LiamO (Jan 22, 2013)

cemertyone said:


> Im gonna fuck him he didnt realise i was video the whole proceddings....


 
Are you gonna video you fucking him too? Please don't share it.


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## AKA pseudonym (Jan 27, 2013)

> Ulster People’s Forum Values Voices
> This statement reflects the voice of the Ulster People’s Forum which currently the majority of politicians, government departments and decision makers are refusing to value or represent. An event today enabled a process to take place to work towards progressing the vision, strategy and further actions of the Ulster People’s Forum.
> The process enabled over 150 re...presentatives from all walks of life from across Northern Ireland, to come together and represent their communities. People spoke passionately about the need for equality, fair representation and celebration of their British culture, tradition and history.
> Jamie Bryson, Ulster People’s Forum Chair, believes that involving people in creating a better way forward, is vital. "At a time when the Ulster Peoples Forum is being misrepresented and therefore misunderstood by many, we have come together to do the very thing that is so lacking in most of the political and decision making processes across Northern Ireland - that is listening to the people.”
> ...


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## Casually Red (Feb 3, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> The institutions were shaped by the GFA - the nature of which was determined by the politics on the ground - which included the influence of westminster, but also that of the loyalists and sien fein. Its a messy compromise, its instutionalised sectariansim but its pretty much stopped the violence. I haven't met a single person from northern ireland who wants to go back to pre-GFA. Except you. And Im not peddling any thing.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/quote]

answering this is like writing a fucking book, so i wont . However ill paraphrase the gist



> If I dont support armed struggle I support imperialism?


 
tut tut . My argument is solely that if you dont accept the Irish people have a right to exercise national sovereignty in Ireland then by plainly you support the right of westminster to exercise sovereignty in Ireland instead . Which by any definition is the support of imperialism . Irish sovereignty does not equate to armed struggle . But youd happily reduce the equation to that .

the rest of what you wrote is pretty much meaningless drivel thats best not engaged with .


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## Casually Red (Feb 3, 2013)

[quote="Kaka Tim, post: 11901921,



> And what about the prods? Ireland is not kept divided by an occupying army - its divided because a significant chunk of the population of ulster dont want to join the republic and would have gone utterly apeshit if this had happened in 1926 - Ireland would have faced a full blown, drawn out civil war that would have destroyed the republic at birth.


 
you do realise we actually did have an actual full blown civil war in 1922-23 ? and that the southern state didnt even start calling itself a republic until 1948 ? and that the republic was destroyed at birth in 1916 , when britain executed the entire provisional government ?

i don think you do

1926 ffs


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## Kaka Tim (Feb 4, 2013)

Casually Red said:


> [quote="Kaka Tim, post: 11901921,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


The civil war that would have erupted if partition had not happened would have been ten times worse and with even shitter repercussions down the years.

And yes I did know about the actual civil war as my grandad was in the IRA at the time.


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## Casually Red (Feb 5, 2013)

Kaka Tim said:


> The civil war that would have erupted if partition had not happened would have been ten times worse and with even shitter repercussions down the years.
> .


 
your just making that up off the top of your head, pulling fantasy facts out of your hole on a whim . Unionists were and remain a small minority in Ireland . It most certainly would not have been ten times worse , or anything else . Your simply indulging in the usual unionist ploy of threats and bluster of outright armageddon if unionists dont get their way, to portray any alternmative to british imperialism as simply unthinkable  .



> And yes I did know about the actual civil war as my grandad was in the IRA at the time


 
and despite that you never thought to mention the fact there actually was a civil war when warning of the possibility of a civil war .


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## Casually Red (Feb 5, 2013)

they split last week, unsurprisingly


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