# Higgs Boson has been 'discovered'. Possibly. Announcement on 4th July



## editor (Jul 2, 2012)

The full announcement is coming on Weds (surely they're not being so crass as to time it with US Independence Day?) but it appears that they have finally found/nearly found the elusive Higgs Boson.


> The hunt for the “God Particle” could be close to completion as scientists prepare to announce the latest results from the Large Hadron Collider experiment before a major conference next week.
> 
> Scientists from the Cern laboratory in Switzerland will announce on Wednesday whether the tantalising “hints” of the existence of the Higgs Boson, which they presented in December, have been strengthened or grown weaker over the past six months.
> 
> ...


​


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## Greebo (Jul 2, 2012)

editor said:


> The full announcement is coming on Weds (surely they're not being so crass as to time it with US Independence Day?) but it appears that they have finally found/nearly found the elusive Higgs Boson.


It's taken decades to get this far, a couple more days is immaterial.  IMHO some clearer proof either way would be interesting.


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## maldwyn (Jul 2, 2012)

Is it funding renewal time already?


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## Greebo (Jul 2, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Is it funding renewal time already?


You might very well think that, I couldn't possibly coment.


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## Badgers (Jul 3, 2012)

So 08:00 UK time tomorrow then


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## Hocus Eye. (Jul 3, 2012)

I am not sure that I believe in the God particle. I am a bit agnostic about it.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 3, 2012)

Does Bill Murray really have the qualifications to be the deputy physics coordinator at Cern?


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## tendril (Jul 3, 2012)

It's my birthday on the 4th. Now would I rather have higgs Bosun, or a Big ho, son???


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## T & P (Jul 3, 2012)

But other than to confirm a widely-held belief, will we be better off or the wiser for it?


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## OneStrike (Jul 4, 2012)

Owen Jones has a brother working there, as is Dave Nellists' Daughter.  The science is a bit much for me but from my little understanding of Higgs, Quartz, Photons e.t.c I know it is exciting and I wanted to get an early post in the thread.


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)

T & P said:


> But other than to confirm a widely-held belief, will we be better off or the wiser for it?


 
It will be the confirmation of a prediction of a theoretical model. One of the most powerful things about scientific theory is that it can make predictions about what should be found in the natural world if the model is correct. When predictions are confirmed by evidence they thus validate theory. If it is found It will mean that one of the last pieces of the jigsaw in particle physics has been found and we will have answered one of the fundamental questions in physics,namely why particles have mass. It will be the deepest level of reality that the human race has ever discovered. As such it will be the crowning achievement of half a century of physics.

As I understand it, the higgs field is the force that gives different masses to different subatomic particles. The moment the universe began all particles existed in symmetry and were massless and were all zipping around at the speed of light. All particles in the universe were perfectly distributed across the universe. All the forces of nature had the same strength and all matter particles had the same mass (zero) There was no gravity because there was no way for gravity to act on a universe of perfect symmetrical distribution of massless matter.

Then the higgs field switched on in the first trillionth of a second and broke that symmetry, broke the perfection, like someone at a dinner party picking up a glass and ruining the symmetry of the table arrangement and it was this, this falling into disordered a-symmetry which meant that some particles took on mass and some didn't. Gravity now could do its stuff, pulling on particles of different masses and from that we get structures and ultimately the galaxies, stars, planets and us.

It was imperfection and disorder that made the universe as we know it possible. There is an irony here, existance owes itself to disorder and imperfection and not the other way around. If the universe had remained symmetrical then nothing would have mass and would be just a perfect, symmetrical soup of massless particles. The breaking of symmetry was a vital stage for existence


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## Greebo (Jul 4, 2012)

T & P said:


> But other than to confirm a widely-held belief, will we be better off or the wiser for it?


Possibly, yes, eventually.


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## claphamboy (Jul 4, 2012)

OneStrike said:


> Owen Jones has a brother working there....


 
Oh Christ, does that mean he will end-up being rolled out all over the place to comment on any findings?


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## Balbi (Jul 4, 2012)

http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html

Here's the cast.


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## Fez909 (Jul 4, 2012)

5-sigma discovery confirmed!


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> 5-sigma discovery confirmed!


not... not 5-SIGMA?


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## Pickman's model (Jul 4, 2012)

claphamboy said:


> Oh Christ, does that mean he will end-up being rolled out all over the place to comment on any findings?


in a barrel with spikes on the inside.


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## spitfire (Jul 4, 2012)

dylans said:


> /snip......The breaking of symmetry was a vital stage for existence


 
Thanks dylans, I didn't really understand what the big deal was until you posted that. I've nicked it and posted it elsewhere for my mates to read, hope that's OK.


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)

Fez909 said:


> 5-sigma discovery confirmed!


Wow. So a confirmed discovery then. It means they are 99.9999 sure.

Someone is going to get a Nobel prize


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## Fez909 (Jul 4, 2012)

Yep, although they've stopped short of saying it is the Higgs. Just that the new discovery behaves like the Higgs.


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 4, 2012)

I won't believe it's real until I've seen its long-form birth certificate


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## FridgeMagnet (Jul 4, 2012)

(not actually my joke, to be fair)


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## mwgdrwg (Jul 4, 2012)

These muppets are using Comic Sans to present their findings.


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## krink (Jul 4, 2012)

dylans said:


> The breaking of symmetry was a vital stage for existence


 
as an enthusiastic but easily confused follower of this stuff, thanks for that, dylans. made perfect sense!


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## King Biscuit Time (Jul 4, 2012)

mwgdrwg said:


> These muppets are using Comic Sans to present their findings.


 
That's classic scientist. Oooh - lets make this easier to understand by putting things in Comic Sans!

Not me though - I put my presentations in Gill Sans to lend my research an air of authority.


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## Limejuice (Jul 4, 2012)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I won't believe it's real until I've seen its long-form birth certificate


That's a perfectly fair attitude.

Lloyds Bank won't believe I'm real until I turn up with a passport and an electricity bill. What's sauce for the bank is sauce for the boson.


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## krink (Jul 4, 2012)

King Biscuit Time said:


> I put my presentations in Gill Sans to lend my research an air of authority.


 
didn't eric gill fuck his dog?

sorry for this surreal derail.


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## King Biscuit Time (Jul 4, 2012)

And his daughter I think.

Still I don't think you can tell that just by looking at the font.


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## gentlegreen (Jul 4, 2012)

Only realised today that my dad may have been in the same class at school with Higgs...


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)

krink said:


> as an enthusiastic but easily confused follower of this stuff, thanks for that, dylans. made perfect sense!


 
Good accessible article on symmetry breaking here 
http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec18.html


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## The Octagon (Jul 4, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Only realised today that my dad may have been in the same class at school with Higgs...


 
There the kids were, all lined up neatly in rows with their pencils sharpened, not doing much, then in stumbles Higgs, who knocks a few tables over and shits in the paper bin.


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## krink (Jul 4, 2012)

now they've probably found the Higgs Boson, where does the search go next? what's the next big thing to find?


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## BoxRoom (Jul 4, 2012)

krink said:


> now they've probably found the Higgs Boson, where does the search go next? what's the next big thing to find?


The Mother of God particle?


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## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

krink said:


> now they've probably found the Higgs Boson, where does the search go next? what's the next big thing to find?


 
1. What are the HB's properties?
2. Are there more than one type of HB?
3. What, the living fuck, is Dark Matter? Seriously, figure this one out guys, please.


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## cesare (Jul 4, 2012)

Isn't dark matter a theory to explain what happens when other theories don't always work?


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## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

cesare said:


> Isn't dark matter a theory to explain what happens when other theories don't always work?


No, it's quite a detailed theory. It affects the motion and shape of the universe in multiple consistent ways. We know it's there, just not what it's made of.

Dark Energy is even weirder.


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## fractionMan (Jul 4, 2012)

dylans said:


> Good accessible article on symmetry breaking here
> http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec18.html


 
That's pretty interesting.  Not heard of the inflationary universe before (or the flatness/horizon problems)


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## cesare (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> No, it's quite a detailed theory. It affects the motion and shape of the universe in multiple consistent ways. We know it's there, just not what it's made of.
> 
> Dark Energy is even weirder.



I should have said "detailed" theory and left it at that


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## sunnysidedown (Jul 4, 2012)

live link: http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html

Apparently it's _a_ Higgs Boson, not _the_ Higgs Boson.


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## stuff_it (Jul 4, 2012)

sunnysidedown said:


> live link: http://webcast.web.cern.ch/webcast/play_higgs.html
> 
> Apparently it's _a_ Higgs Boson, not _the_ Higgs Boson.


Have they named it? (((Dave the boson)))

They should make it a tiny cake.


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)

It should be called the priest particle, not the god particle 

Because it gives mass


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## 8ball (Jul 4, 2012)

So, they _think_ they've found something that is quite similar to, but not quite like, the Higgs particle suggested by the Standard Model.  So they sort-of think that once some kinks have been worked out they may have an explanation for 2% of the mass of the baryonic matter in the Universe.  Assuming something else entirely isn't going on. 

And then there's the Dark Energy and Dark Matter conundrum throwing a massive spanner in the works.

Could there be a big grant application coming?


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## gentlegreen (Jul 4, 2012)

.. and the 4th of July is an interesting day to choose ...


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## Crispy (Jul 4, 2012)

8ball said:


> So, they _think_ they've found something that is quite similar to, but not quite like, the Higgs particle suggested by the Standard Model.


 
They're "5 Sigma" certain or 99.999% certain (count the nines). Remember that these are scientists speaking science and that they'll bend over backwards to avoid declaring universal truth.


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## 8ball (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> They're "5 Sigma" certain or 99.999% certain (count the nines). Remember that these are scientists speaking science and that they'll bend over backwards to avoid declaring universal truth.


 
They're 5-sigma that they've found something in the right energy range.  Was listening to a physicist on R4 this morning explaining how it's not quite like what they were expecting, though, and they're not sure whether these 'kinks' are something that can be worked out.

There are also issues like neutrino oscillations that don't fit into the Standard Model at all.

It's encouraging at least that the media aren't reporting it in terms of 'we've found the God particle - it's all sewn up', I suppose.


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## krtek a houby (Jul 4, 2012)

Awesome! In your face, God!!


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## cesare (Jul 4, 2012)

It's a pretty significant margin of error when multiplied by infinity    /facetious


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## krink (Jul 4, 2012)

dylans said:


> Good accessible article on symmetry breaking here
> http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/ast123/lectures/lec18.html


 
dunno about symmetry but my bloody printer has broken printing this out to read later.


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## beesonthewhatnow (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> 1. What are the HB's properties?
> 2. Are there more than one type of HB?
> 3. What, the living fuck, is Dark Matter? Seriously, figure this one out guys, please.


And, more to the point, when are we getting our fucking hoverboards?


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## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

still a couple of years for them to sort that out.


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## T & P (Jul 4, 2012)

Crispy said:


> 1. What are the HB's properties?
> 2. Are there more than one type of HB?
> 3. What, the living fuck, is Dark Matter? Seriously, figure this one out guys, please.


 How about more research into anti-matter and possible ways to mass produce it and exploit as a source of nearly limitless energy? Or is that just the premise of science fiction films?


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## 8ball (Jul 4, 2012)

T & P said:


> How about more research into anti-matter and possible ways to mass produce it and exploit as a source of nearly limitless energy? Or is that just the premise of science fiction films?


 
Fusion is a better bet in the meantime.


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)

Some cool images from CERN





This is the simulated decay path of a Higgs Boson – so this is what scientists have been looking for. The Higgs Boson decays into four ‘muons’ – a type of heavy electron, which are shown in red.






his another simulated model for Higgs Boson, showing the particle decaying into two jets of hadrons and two electrons, with energy
 deposits shown in blue

.
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	



This ‘event’ was recorded on 18 June, and shows the muon tracks in red, and the electron tracks coloured in green.






This ‘event’ recorded earlier this year, shows a collision between two protons, and, according to Cern, ‘shows characteristics expected from the decay of the SM Higgs Boson’.




This view also shows the results of a collision between two protons, with the four red lines showing the high-energy muons shooting out. Cern says this also shows evidence of Higgs Boson.


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## Yetman (Jul 4, 2012)

So now what for the LHC? Could get a lot for the scrap metal...


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## 8ball (Jul 4, 2012)

Yetman said:


> So now what for the LHC? Could get a lot for the scrap metal...


 
Next they shut it down for a few months, upgrade it, run again at higher energies to try and get a better look at what's happening.


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## Hocus Eye. (Jul 4, 2012)

Regardless of the pretty pictures they have produced, perhaps from some free downloaded graphics software, I think that the whole thing is a money making scam that makes the banks' one look like a kid putting foreign money in a chocolate bar machine. For a start no self respecting particle would walk around with a name like Higgs Boson. It is made up. Even the name is an anagram of 'bison hoggs'. As for 5 Sigma - no need; 3 Sigma will to get you the emergency services.











probably


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## TheHoodedClaw (Jul 4, 2012)

dylans said:


> Someone is going to get a Nobel prize


 
That might be tricky though. There are 5 people still alive (out of 6) from the 3 teams that independently came up with the theory. The Nobel committee only awards the prize to a maximum of three people. Higgs is a shoe-in as he described the required particle, but who else gets in...More here:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2012/jul/04/higgs-boson-nobel-prize-headache?newsfeed=true

Obviously the three person rule is massively outdated, but will they change it for this?


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## gentlegreen (Jul 4, 2012)

So is the cat dead ?
Is it a particle, a wave or a plane ?
And is this, even with all the maths, just another layer ?


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 4, 2012)




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## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

ATOMIC SUPLEX said:


>


why does anyone give a shit?


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## dylans (Jul 4, 2012)




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## quimcunx (Jul 4, 2012)

Not sure which of those two I feel more drawn to.


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## ATOMIC SUPLEX (Jul 4, 2012)

quimcunx said:


> Not sure which of those two I feel more drawn to.


 
I like the second one.

I just thought it was funny, comic sans isn't standard, someone must have set it to that and that nice blue colour.


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## killer b (Jul 4, 2012)

i think someone was having a joke.


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## Blagsta (Jul 4, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> Only realised today that my dad may have been in the same class at school with Higgs...


That was the Higgs Bozo


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## teqniq (Jul 4, 2012)




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## Termite Man (Jul 5, 2012)

so let me get this right,

they have found a boson which may or may not be the one belonging to higgs and there has been no black hole which will destroy the earth. 

I have to say I'm slightly disappointed in the outcome of all this


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## ericjarvis (Jul 5, 2012)

Termite Man said:


> so let me get this right,
> 
> they have found a boson which may or may not be the one belonging to higgs and there has been no black hole which will destroy the earth.
> 
> I have to say I'm slightly disappointed in the outcome of all this



Don't worry. Somewhere in the data they haven't yet examined in detail is the evidence that the boson was stolen from Dirac by Higgs, and thus there are holes in the standard model after all. After all the effort hawking the Higgs boson around it will be discovered that, due to all the physicists sitting on the fence, it's all been a complete waste of time, and that John Butler did it.


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## cesare (Jul 5, 2012)

"hawking"


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## Termite Man (Jul 5, 2012)

ericjarvis said:


> Don't worry. Somewhere in the data they haven't yet examined in detail is the evidence that the boson was stolen from Dirac by Higgs, and thus there are holes in the standard model after all. After all the effort hawking the Higgs boson around it will be discovered that, due to all the physicists sitting on the fence, it's all been a complete waste of time, and that John Butler did it.


 

still not an earth destroying black hole though is it.


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## Lord Camomile (Jul 5, 2012)

cesare said:


> "hawking"


Glad I wasn't the only one


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## stuff_it (Jul 5, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> So is the cat dead ?
> Is it a particle, a wave or a plane ?
> And is this, even with all the maths, just another layer ?


Cat takes off.


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## ericjarvis (Jul 5, 2012)

cesare said:


> "hawking"



Bless you, have a tissue.


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## ericjarvis (Jul 5, 2012)

gentlegreen said:


> So is the cat dead ?



This one was settled by experiment long ago. The cat is bloody furious.


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## T & P (Jul 5, 2012)

So much for the early techincal problems of the LHC actually being acts of sabotage from time travellers to prevent humanity from destroying itself


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2012)

Crispy said:


> No, it's quite a detailed theory. It affects the motion and shape of the universe in multiple consistent ways. We know it's there, just not what it's made of.


 
Quorn.


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## ViolentPanda (Jul 5, 2012)

Hocus Eye. said:


> Regardless of the pretty pictures they have produced, perhaps from some free downloaded graphics software, I think that the whole thing is a money making scam that makes the banks' one look like a kid putting foreign money in a chocolate bar machine. For a start no self respecting particle would walk around with a name like Higgs Boson. It is made up. Even the name is an anagram of 'bison hoggs'. As for 5 Sigma - no need; 3 Sigma will to get you the emergency services.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And, of course, the Higgs Boson is very easily Spoonerised into the Bigg Hoaxon.
Coincidence? I think not!


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## 2hats (Jul 6, 2012)




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## alsoknownas (Jul 8, 2012)

For some reason caption 1 of that IKEA mockup (with the little wooden stub thingies) made me cackle like an idiot .


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## SpookyFrank (Jul 12, 2012)

Here is the Higgs Boson result converted, via some unfathomably complicated process, into a rather nice piece of music:

http://www.geant.net/Media_Centre/Media_Library/Media Library/Higgs_Boson_Atlas.mp3

Explanation (sort of) here:

http://www.geant.net/Media_Centre/Pages/Higgs-like-Boson-Sonification.aspx


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## Fruitloop (Jul 12, 2012)

SpookyFrank said:


> Here is the Higgs Boson result converted, via some unfathomably complicated process, into a rather nice piece of music:
> 
> http://www.geant.net/Media_Centre/Media_Library/Media Library/Higgs_Boson_Atlas.mp3
> 
> ...


 
It's kind of tinkly. Who knew.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 19, 2013)

http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-interview-underlying-incompetence#

interview


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## fractionMan (Dec 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> http://www.theguardian.com/science/2013/dec/06/peter-higgs-interview-underlying-incompetence#
> 
> interview



a true legend


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## xenon (Dec 19, 2013)

Ha.  That's great. I didn't know much about him, other than the as it turns out, somewhat eronious image of a quiet out of touch academic.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 19, 2013)

xenon said:


> Ha.  That's great. I didn't know much about him, other than the as it turns out, somewhat eronious image of a quiet out of touch academic.




ennit I love the idea that people thinking on the edge of physics are sort of irritated by reality and academic scrabbles for funding.


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## xenon (Dec 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> ennit I love the idea that people thinking on the edge of physics are sort of irritated by reality and academic scrabbles for funding.



Yep. But also in his case, politically active and a bit bolshy. The kinda academic you'd want as a tutor.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 19, 2013)

xenon said:


> Yep. But also in his case, politically active and a bit bolshy. The kinda academic you'd want as a tutor.




my old creative writing lecturer. Did philosophy with lifers in local prisons. Thick glasses, crap coat, a shitty old citroen to drive. Proper lefty academic sort- at some times when the discussions got heated he'd say 'I'm going for a smoke' and leave us all hammering out the issues at hand. Thats what you want in a tutor.


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## white rabbit (Dec 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> my old creative writing lecturer. Did philosophy with lifers in local prisons. Thick glasses, crap coat, a shitty old citroen to drive. Proper lefty academic sort- at some times when the discussions got heated he'd say 'I'm going for a smoke' and leave us all hammering out the issues at hand. Thats what you want in a tutor.


I didn't know you were a lifer. Was it your paedo uncle, or did you do a copper because he knew too much?


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## white rabbit (Dec 19, 2013)

When I think about the simplistic ideas I had in my 20s, a philosophy course at that age seems like an utter waste of time. I can't believe I didn't see Williams' moral luck as a critique of utilitarianism instead of some perverse existentialist branch. Why was I so resistant to Kant. Was I really in thrall to Wittgenstein's insanity? On the other hand, how would I have read Hume. Thanks to him I know the tree in the forest makes no sound! I gained a healthy distrust of anyone in the European tradition from Sartre on. In fact, apart from Kierkegaard, fuck the lot of them. And, of course, that nothing means anything. And we all knew that to start with.


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## DotCommunist (Dec 19, 2013)

white rabbit said:


> I didn't know you were a lifer. Was it your paedo uncle, or did you do a copper because he knew too much?



I killed for my country. I ran black ops out of Sudan arming rebel Kurds in Iraq. During the Cold war I organised and shipped yemeni guns to separatists throughout the Congolese region. And for this they deny me my liberty and donuts.


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## Crispy (Dec 19, 2013)

DotCommunist said:


> I killed for my country. I ran black ops out of Sudan arming rebel Kurds in Iraq. During the Cold war I organised and shipped yemeni guns to separatists throughout the Congolese region. And for this they deny me my liberty and donuts.


Show us yer scars


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