# Barclays/TFL cycle hire scheme in London



## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

TfL have published details of the cycle hire scheme for London that they hope to introduce by 2010. 

Tfl say "The scheme will allow you to pick up a cycle at a docking station, use it as you like, and then return it to any docking station.

Initially, cycles will be available in an area approximately equivalent to fare Zone 1 in central London, although the area may be enlarged and the number of docking stations and cycles increased in future."

And they promise initially
*  6,000 cycles
* 400 cycle stations
* 10,500 docking points (allowing approximately 1.7 per cycle should ensure users can return bicycles to the docking point of their choice)
* An area of 43km2

See http://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/roadusers/cycling/cycle-hire-scheme/ for further details


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

*waits for someone to come along moaning at what a crap idea this is, how all the bikes will be nicked etc etc*

I think it's a great idea, just a shame London didn't do it first, and that it's taken so long to get funding and approval...


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

How much taxpayer money is this dumbass idea wasting?


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> I think it's a great idea, just a shame London didn't do it first, and that it's taken so long to get funding and approval...



They'd be much better off introducing a compulsory cycling standards test and licensing system, so that a) fuckwits who jump red lights can be caught, and b) it becomes safer for other road users, knowing that they are less likely to have some idiot on a bike cut them up and put them at risk of damaging their vehicle when they hit the bike, or another car hits them because of the evasive action they had to.

How do you sue a cyclist that causes you to have an accident when you can't identify them, and they have no insurance to claim on?


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

Ah, how unexpected, it's ajdown and his 'the world is against me' spiel.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Not at all, just putting things into perspective that bicycles create more problems than people think they solve.

I notice also on the tfl website there's a poll, and "I won't/can't use it" and "what a dumbass idea" are conspicuous by their absence.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Not at all, just putting things into perspective that bicycles create more problems than people think they solve.



Oh? How so? How many RTAs are cycles responsible for compared to cars? How much room does a cycle take up on the road compared to let's say, the average estate car? 

Let's hear these myriad "problems".


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## Wolveryeti (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> They'd be much better off introducing a compulsory cycling standards test and licensing system, so that a) fuckwits who jump red lights can be caught, and b) it becomes safer for other road users, knowing that they are less likely to have some idiot on a bike cut them up and put them at risk of damaging their vehicle when they hit the bike, or another car hits them because of the evasive action they had to.



I think you should be forced to register so I know who to run over, lol


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> They'd be much better off introducing a compulsory cycling standards test and licensing system, so that a) fuckwits who jump red lights can be caught, and b) it becomes safer for other road users, knowing that they are less likely to have some idiot on a bike cut them up and put them at risk of damaging their vehicle when they hit the bike, or another car hits them because of the evasive action they had to.
> 
> How do you sue a cyclist that causes you to have an accident when you can't identify them, and they have no insurance to claim on?



Spoken like a dyed-in-the-wool anti-cycling motorist. You talk as though there are no idiot motorists who jump red lights and are a danger to other road users. I can't count the numbers of motorists who have tailgated me. That is dangerous driving in anyone's book.


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

When I wrote the initial article I wondered how long it would take before aj offered a negative comment - and the answer is: 12 minutes.

Maybe, just maybe it will be a success and increase the number of cyclists on the roads of London meaning that car drivers have to take more account of cyclists making the streets calmer and much more people friendly.


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

We worked out that the net cost to TfL of each km cycled by these hire bikes is about £2.50

Looking forward to blowing this one out of the water


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Ideas like this fail to take into account that for many people it is just not practical to use a bike for part or all of their journey.  Then the predictable environmental lobby come into play trying to make you feel guilty for exercising your right to choose not to participate.


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

Cars are far more of a menace to pedestrians than cycles. Lets just look at the figures: the DfT shows that in England (and I think Wales too) around 240-250 people are killed on the pavement or on pedestrian crossings each year by cars. The equivalent figure for the number of people killed by cyclists is 2-3 a year - a statistically insignificant number (in many years the figure is zero, or one: these really are freakish accidents from which no general pattern can be found)


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## zenie (Nov 20, 2008)

se5 said:


> When I wrote the initial article I wondered how long it would take before aj offered a negative comment - and the answer is: 12 minutes.


 
Predictable isn't it? 

I do need to ask though, how are TFL making sure people don't take them home?


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Indeed, so dumb ideas like removing the barriers in Central Brixton to let pedestrians wander in and out of the traffic as they please to cross the road, rather than at designated crossing points, contributes to the problem rather than solves it.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Ideas like this fail to take into account that for many people it is just not practical to use a bike for part or all of their journey.  Then the predictable environmental lobby come into play trying to make you feel guilty for exercising your right to choose not to participate.



It isn't always practical to use a car, yet people do. Some would rather drive 100m down the road than walk. Given the levels of traffic in London, it isn't really efficient to drive anywhere...unless you have to.

Then I look at some of those who sit behind the wheel and I see how unhealthy they look and I think "I'm glad I cycle".


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Ideas like this fail to take into account that for many people it is just not practical to use a bike for part or all of their journey.



Agreed but for many people arriving into say Waterloo or Victoria stations it would be very easy for them to cycle the one or two miles to their ultimate destination and so this scheme would allow them so to do which means that there is slightly less pressure on public transport. It brings public health benefits too as the people who cycle are far less likely to duffer from health problems in old age.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

zenie said:


> I do need to ask though, how are TFL making sure people don't take them home?



You pay per use, and if it isn't returned to a base within 24 hours of taking it out, apparently you get charged to your credit card the full cost of replacement of the bike.

It'll be interesting to see how the daily cost (which I don't think they've worked out yet) compares to a day travelcard.


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## zenie (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Indeed, so dumb ideas like removing the barriers in Central Brixton to let pedestrians wander in and out of the traffic as they please to cross the road, rather than at designated crossing points, contributes to the problem rather than solves it.


 

That's safer then what was currently happening, people cross halfway and then walk up the middle of the road along the barrier til they find the gap. Or do you want jaywalking to be an offence now?


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

I've seen people using these schemes in Paris and Barcelona and they seem very popular and well used. Bicycles are a convenient way of getting around in a city center. For trips around or under a mile, it's by far the quickest.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> It isn't always practical to use a car, yet people do. Some would rather drive 100m down the road than walk.



That's obviously silly, driving that short a distance.  But it's not just distance that's the factor, you have to take into account many other things that will be different for each person.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> It'll be interesting to see how the daily cost (which I don't think they've worked out yet) compares to a day travelcard.



Hein?


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Indeed, so dumb ideas like removing the barriers in Central Brixton to let pedestrians wander in and out of the traffic as they please to cross the road, rather than at designated crossing points, contributes to the problem rather than solves it.



But Brixton is a first and foremost a town centre for _people_ not for cars - the barriers are there for the benefit of cars to allow them to go faster knowing that people will not wonder out. If there is more uncertainty drivers will have to take more account of the needs of people


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

TBH aj, if the people for whom using a motor vehicle is beneficial or necessary - disabled persons, couriers, delivery types - were the only people driving in London things would be a lot smoother, but they aren't. Someone commuting or driving into central London to shop, 'do lunch' or other leisure activity are only making lives harder for themselves and everyone else. 

A company director driving to his company parking space in a 5 series beemer could just as easily take public transport as a choice, but chooses to sit in traffic and making an unecessary car journey.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> That's obviously silly, driving that short a distance.  But it's not just distance that's the factor, you have to take into account many other things that will be different for each person.



Yet many motorists do it. What are these "other things"?

Btw, I see a lot of motorists using the pavement for parking when there is no sign telling them that it is permitted. This results in broken paving flags, which can cause accidents and makes life for those with mobility problems unbearable.


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I've seen people using these schemes in Paris and Barcelona and they seem very popular and well used. Bicycles are a convenient way of getting around in a city center. For trips around or under a mile, it's by far the quickest.



Quite 
The research over the years show that in London for journeys of up to about five miles bikes are the fastest way of getting around.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

My commute is 9.6 miles and it's 20 mins quicker on my bike than either car or PT...


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

The average speed of a car in London is around 2mph. Cars are hardly practical or efficient in urban environments.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> TBH aj, if the people for whom using a motor vehicle is beneficial or necessary - disabled persons, couriers, delivery types - were the only people driving in London things would be a lot smoother, but they aren't. Someone commuting or driving into central London to shop, 'do lunch' or other leisure activity are only making lives harder for themselves and everyone else.
> 
> A company director driving to his company parking space in a 5 series beemer could just as easily take public transport as a choice, but chooses to sit in traffic and making an unecessary car journey.



You may well be right, but "could just as easily" isn't always an option.  From where I live to where I work takes 30 minutes by car, or just over an hour on two buses.  For some high powered businessman, that 30 minutes each end of the day saved by using their own car could mean a lot of money made (or lost).

I personally wouldn't drive through Central London, simply because it's so damn confusing (although now I have a sat nav it helps) I find it easier comign down from North to head M11/A102M/A13/Tower Bridge/Bricklayers Arms/ Camberwell than the direct route via the A1


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> The average speed of a car in London is around 2mph.



Really? Fuck me, people should buy faster cars! 

Problem solved!


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> The average speed of a car in London is around 2mph. Cars are hardly practical or efficient in urban environments.



average speed for a car ranges from 7 to 12 mph depending on who you ask from the look of it:

http://www.google.co.uk/search?sa=N&tab=nw&q=average car speed in london

The more interesting point is that this has remained pretty constant since the earliest days of motoring - which is an indicator that improved traffic management really does work!!


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> For some high powered businessman, that 30 minutes each end of the day saved by using their own car could mean a lot of money made (or lost).



Does empathising with "high-powered businessmen" in big cars give you a bit of a secret stiffy, aj?


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Where did I 'emphathise' with them?  I merely mentioned a possible scenario that had probably been overlooked.

What is it with people round here and a fixation on my genitalia?  It's mine, and I'm not sharing.


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## Pat24 (Nov 20, 2008)

As a cyclist myself, i think it would be wiser to invest on good cycle lanes (that mean actual cycle lines, not just green painted bits of the road that end suddenly) before thinking of getting new bikes on the road. Many people i speak to say that they would love to cycle to work, but are too scared of being crushed by a lorry or bus, which honestly, is very likely to happen. I have been very lucky because i am also cautious, but i think i would enjoy my cycling a lot more if i was safer. 

So, in a nutshell, invest in cycle lanes and then bikes for everyone!!


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

Pat24 said:


> but are too scared of being crushed by a lorry or bus, which honestly, is very likely to happen.



If you're fucking stupid.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Pat24 said:


> Many people i speak to say that they would love to cycle to work, but are too scared of being crushed by a lorry or bus, which honestly, is very likely to happen.



Simple things like not riding up the inside of a left turning lorry on a corner would help reduce that risk.

I thought it was a great idea to have that lorry parked in Trafalgar Square that time so cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and see just how difficult they are to see from the driver's point of view, when they are cycling without due care and attention, weaving in and out of traffic.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

Pat24 said:


> As a cyclist myself, i think it would be wiser to invest on good cycle lanes (that mean actual cycle lines, not just green painted bits of the road that end suddenly) before thinking of getting new bikes on the road. Many people i speak to say that they would love to cycle to work, but are too scared of being crushed by a lorry or bus, which honestly, is very likely to happen. I have been very lucky because i am also cautious, but i think i would enjoy my cycling a lot more if i was safer.
> 
> So, in a nutshell, invest in cycle lanes and then bikes for everyone!!



The thing is, most cycle lanes are badly designed or dangerously positioned. A lot of cycle lanes will be painted next to give way lines at junctions. 

People only get crushed by lorries or buses because they take stupid risks by undertaking them at junctions. More cycle training is the answer, not more cycle lanes.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, the more you separate cyclists out from other road users, the less likelt they are to be aware or take notice of you when you do have to use 'open road'; and the whole lorry business, nino's right, rider training would be more useful than more cycle lanes...


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Simple things like not riding up the inside of a left turning lorry on a corner would help reduce that risk.
> 
> I thought it was a great idea to have that lorry parked in Trafalgar Square that time so cyclists could sit in the driver's seat and see just how difficult they are to see from the driver's point of view, when they are cycling without due care and attention, weaving in and out of traffic.



And a lot of motorists will move their vehicle as close to the kerb as they can possibly get, which is why cyclists and motorcyclists have to filter through traffic. This is not "weaving", as you put it.

Putting a dirty great big lorry in Trafalgar Square is not the answer, more cycle training is what is needed.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

> when they are cycling without due care and attention, weaving in and out of traffic.



I cycle with huge amounts of due care and attention when I'm weaving in slow moving or stationery traffic.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> And a lot of motorists will move their vehicle as close to the kerb as they can possibly get, which is why cyclists and motorcyclists have to filter through traffic. This is not "weaving", as you put it.
> 
> Putting a dirty great big lorry in Trafalgar Square is not the answer, more cycle training is what is needed.



Why shouldn't cyclists wait in their place in the queue with everyone else that uses the same stretch of road? 

I certainly support more cycle training, at the expense of the cyclist of course, rather than wasting taxpayer's money on government funded schemes.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Why shouldn't cyclists wait in their place in the queue with everyone else that uses the same stretch of road?
> 
> I certainly support more cycle training, at the expense of the cyclist of course, rather than wasting taxpayer's money on government funded schemes.



Because we don't take up as much space on the road and if motorists like you are taking loads of space on the road (pulling up flush to the kerb, for example), we have every right to filter through. I'm not cycling in the gutter.

What would you rather see the taxpayer's money spent on?  Bailing out banks and irresponsible corporations?

You don't cycle, do you?


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

Why bother Nino?  The man is a complete tool.. sorry, troll.


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Putting a dirty great big lorry in Trafalgar Square is not the answer, more cycle training is what is needed.



I think the lorry thing is useful. IIRC, it's part of an education program for cyclists _and_ HGV drivers.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

citydreams said:


> Why bother Nino?  The man is a complete tool.. sorry, troll.



Isn't he just?


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Why shouldn't cyclists wait in their place in the queue with everyone else that uses the same stretch of road?



Because they take up very little space and can therefore move forwards when larger, less practical, vehicles cannot. Just like motorbikes, or indeed small cars vs. big lorries.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I think the lorry thing is useful. IIRC, it's part of an education program for cyclists _and_ HGV drivers.



Sure but I'd prefer it if cyclists were actually trained, that way they'd know about blind spots and turning circles. I've seen plenty of cyclists who don't even look over their shoulder when pulling out or turning into a side road. Training would solve this.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> Because we don't take up as much space on the road and if motorists like you are taking loads of space on the road (pulling up flush to the kerb, for example), we have every right to filter through. I'm not cycling in the gutter.



Which bit of "no you don't have any right to filter through" are you having difficulty comprehending?



nino_savatte said:


> You don't cycle, do you?



Of course not.  I used to as a kid, but once I was old enough to learn to drive, I did the normal thing and upgraded to a car.  Who'd be silly enough to get cold and wet on two wheels when you can be warm, dry and comfortable on four?

Oh yeah, half this board.

Most of the people here are also lefties.

Strange that.  Left leaning political views _and_ stupid often go together, don't they.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

No more so than being right wing and a cunty idiot.


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Which bit of "no you don't have any right to filter through" are you having difficulty comprehending?



Why don't they??


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Strange that.  Left leaning political views _and_ stupid often go together, don't they.



Please can we ban him now?

please

please

please


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

> Which bit of "no you don't have any right to filter through" are you having difficulty comprehending?



Where does it say in the Highway code that cyclists aren't allowed to progress through traffic by changing lanes?


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Which bit of "no you don't have any right to filter through" are you having difficulty comprehending?



Citydreams is right: you're not worth bothering with.



> Of course not.  I used to as a kid, but once I was old enough to learn to drive, I did the normal thing and upgraded to a car.  Who'd be silly enough to get cold and wet on two wheels when you can be warm, dry and comfortable on four?



Ah, it's the old "bicycle is a toy" or "only kids cycle" canard. You also don't get very far in cities; have to spend lots on insurance, maintenance, petrol and there's the MOT, without which you can't go on the road. "Upgrading" to a car is not "normal".




> Most of the people here are also lefties.



Irrelevant.



> Strange that.  Left leaning political views _and_ stupid often go together, don't they.



Projecting, are you?

When was the last time you read and understood the Highway Code?


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Why do you think cyclists _should_?  I just don't get how cyclists think they own the road when they contribute nothing to the costs of providing them.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

You haven't read the Highway Code, have you?


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

Where in the Highway code does it say I can't progress through traffic aj? Where?

Ah, so now it's you don't 'think'...well, that's obvious...


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

nino_savatte said:


> "Upgrading" to a car is not "normal".



Of course it is.  How many people look forward to learning to drive and getting their own car, compared to how many people think "I could learn to drive but I'm going to decide to keep getting cold and wet on a bike".


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Of course it is.  How many people look forward to learning to drive and getting their own car, compared to how many people think "I could learn to drive but I'm going to decide to keep getting cold and wet on a bike".



You're full of shite. "Normal" is a value-loaded word btw.


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Where in the Highway code does it say I can't progress through traffic aj? Where?



It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

How many cyclists/motorcyclists/motorists do you tailgate, aj? I get the feeling that you're one of those red-faced, angry motorists who flies into a rage whenever you see a roaduser behaving sensibly.


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Why do you think cyclists _should_?  I just don't get how cyclists think they own the road when they contribute nothing to the costs of providing them.



Cyclists pay taxes too. Car taxes are not ringfenced for roads.


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.



That's bollocks.


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Of course it is.  How many people look forward to learning to drive and getting their own car, compared to how many people think "I could learn to drive but I'm going to decide to keep getting cold and wet on a bike".


I have learnt to drive, but I'd much rather cycle 4 miles in London than drive.


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.



Ah, so what it comes down to is you feel agfgrieved that you're stuck in your car waiting in traffic while cyclists get ahead? 

Easy solution to that, get a bike and stop bitching.


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## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.



What about on pavements? When there's a single old man shuffling along, should all other pedestrians slow down to his speed in order to show consideration?


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.



lol.. really?? that's what you think?


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Why do you think cyclists _should_?  I just don't get how cyclists think they own the road when they contribute nothing to the costs of providing them.



All of us cyclists pay income tax, VAT, council tax, all of which contribute to general taxation which pays for roads. We may not pay vehicle excise duty (if we dont own cars: I persoanlly do as I'm a car owner as well as cyclist) but this does not mean we dont pay for roads.


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

I'm a cyclist and own a car, a big fuck off 4x4. 

Am I entitled to overtake??


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## ajdown (Nov 20, 2008)

Labour goverments hate car users because it gives people the chance to be independent.  They just want everyone to follow what the State decides they should think without questioning.


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## Kanda (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Labour goverments hate car users because it gives people the chance to be independent.  They just want everyone to follow what the State decides they should think without questioning.



So that'll be why a Tory Mayor is bringing this program in...


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Labour goverments hate car users because it gives people the chance to be independent.  They just want everyone to follow what the State decides they should think without questioning.









go 

play

with 

traffic


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## kyser_soze (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Labour goverments hate car users because it gives people the chance to be independent.  They just want everyone to follow what the State decides they should think without questioning.



You're getting really, really desparate now aren't you, resorting to standard tory flim flam about freedom vs the state...when in fact a bike gives you more freedom than any other form of transport since you aren't reliant on oil, govt to provide infrastructure to drive on and a legal framework to control the use of vehicles...so even this argument is made of fail...


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## nino_savatte (Nov 20, 2008)

kyser_soze said:


> Ah, so what it comes down to is you feel agfgrieved that you're stuck in your car waiting in traffic while cyclists get ahead?
> 
> Easy solution to that, get a bike and stop bitching.



Hammer-nail-head.


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## Spark (Nov 20, 2008)

ajdown said:


> Labour goverments hate car users because it gives people the chance to be independent.  They just want everyone to follow what the State decides they should think without questioning.



I feel most independent and free when I'm on my bicycle though (and i am quite obsessive about following road rules and tend not to filter).  I can travel door to door, don't need to pay anything, look for parking spaces, worry about timetables or wait for the next bus/tube to come along.


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## se5 (Nov 20, 2008)

Spark said:


> I feel most independent and free when I'm on my bicycle though (and i am quite obsessive about following road rules and tend not to filter).  I can travel door to door, don't need to pay anything, look for parking spaces, worry about timetables or wait for the next bus/tube to come along.



Exactly - if anything cycling empowers the individual so that they dont have to rely on the state to provide for their transport needs - a rightwing idea if ever I saw one, and remember Norman Tebbit speaking urging people to "get on their bikes" and of course our glorious Tory Mayor is best known for being a cyclist.


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

*back to the OP*

I have the full feasibility study for the Cycle hire Scheme..

This bit irks me the most:
"There is a significant market from after rail commuters.  However, sufficient space to cater for the full demand is unlikely to be available.  Hence, it is not recommended to cater for this market initially."

..or ever.


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 20, 2008)

citydreams said:


> I have the full feasibility study for the Cycle hire Scheme..
> 
> This bit irks me the most:
> "There is a significant market from after rail commuters.  However, sufficient space to cater for the full demand is unlikely to be available.  Hence, it is not recommended to cater for this market initially."
> ...



"Unlikely to be available" - says who? 

They've just shot themselves in the foot big style.


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## citydreams (Nov 20, 2008)

Well, there is space, but it's being used by taxis or, er, cycle parking

In the end I think it comes down to 'profit', sorry, 'value for money'.  Commuter (as in rail station) demand would likely mean that the bikes are only used two or three times a day (am journey into work, pm journey home, and maybe an evening trip).

For any kind of return on investment the hire scheme is looking at 7 trips per bike a day.  Apparently Barcelona gets 15 trips/day for its 6000 bikes, for which there are 200,000 registered users.


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## HackneyE9 (Nov 20, 2008)

I lived in Paris and experienced the velib first hand. I suspect it won't work in London because:

* They are not putting enough bikes in. It has to be SWAMPED. Paris works because you don't have to know where the bikes or docking stations are - they are everywhere.
* Paris is cheap beyond chips. 29 euros for a year's (sic, year) pass. Ie 20 quid. Every journey (under 30 mins) then free.
* Paris is compact and dense.
* Paris (inside peripherique) has no crime, graffiti or feral hoodies.
* Paris has no HGV or large delivery lorries.

None of these logistical details, which make the difference between winning and losing, I suspect Boris will put his mind to.


----------



## Crispy (Nov 20, 2008)

HackneyE9 said:


> * Paris has no HGV or large delivery lorries.



I hadn't noticed this but now I think about it you're right. must be a law, right?


----------



## HackneyE9 (Nov 21, 2008)

Crispy said:


> I hadn't noticed this but now I think about it you're right. must be a law, right?



Yes there is a law (but, ahem, don't ask me the details  ). You don't see HGV at any time of day or night. Deliveries seem to be done by transit-size van early in the morning.

BTW - another good thing about Paris is there are no overhead flights at all. Ever. You don't notice an omission immediately, but that is a real godsend.


----------



## Crispy (Mar 6, 2009)

A few snippets of new info: http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2009/03/mayors-questions-0209-on-yer-bike.html

The hire bikes will not have locks, so you _have_ to return them to a docking point when you finish your journey. This is because most of the thefts in the Paris scheme were made when the bikes were locked up away from Docks. However, this seems crazy - you can't pop into a shop and leave the bike locked up outside. It reduces convenience massively.


----------



## teuchter (Apr 27, 2009)

Looks like this may be in place in about a year's time...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8019383.stm

Which is good news.


----------



## George & Bill (Apr 30, 2009)

ajdown said:


> They'd be much better off introducing a compulsory cycling standards test and licensing system, so that a) fuckwits who jump red lights can be caught, and b) it becomes safer for other road users, knowing that they are less likely to have some idiot on a bike cut them up and put them at risk of damaging their vehicle when they hit the bike, or another car hits them because of the evasive action they had to.
> 
> How do you sue a cyclist that causes you to have an accident when you can't identify them, and they have no insurance to claim on?



Instead of arguing with these remarks, I will simply say:

HAAHAAHAAHAAHAAA

Your ideas have not even been acknowledged by any public body, whereas the idea you oppose looks set to become reality in the near future.

SHAME


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

Crispy said:


> A few snippets of new info: http://londonreconnections.blogspot.com/2009/03/mayors-questions-0209-on-yer-bike.html
> 
> The hire bikes will not have locks, so you _have_ to return them to a docking point when you finish your journey. This is because most of the thefts in the Paris scheme were made when the bikes were locked up away from Docks. However, this seems crazy - you can't pop into a shop and leave the bike locked up outside. It reduces convenience massively.



Incorrect. The velib bikes have little wire locks on them you can loop through fences, gates, lighting stands and what not.


----------



## George & Bill (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> Incorrect. The velib bikes have little wire locks on them you can loop through fences, gates, lighting stands and what not.



Yes, hence the thefts in the Paris scheme, and hence the bikes in the London scheme will not have such locks


----------



## teuchter (Apr 30, 2009)

Will there be a charge for using these or will they be covered by a travelcard?

It would seem to make sense that they should be included on a travelcard, if the idea is to reduce the strain on tubes and buses etc.

If I've already got a travelcard, the likelihood of my using the bikes is very much reduced if I have to pay extra.


----------



## jæd (Apr 30, 2009)

slowjoe said:


> Yes, hence the thefts in the Paris scheme, and hence the bikes in the London scheme will not have such locks



Ah, I see. Nothing stopping you using your own lock though...


----------



## George & Bill (Apr 30, 2009)

jæd said:


> Ah, I see. Nothing stopping you using your own lock though...



True, although it then only takes one further step to use your own bike!


----------



## se5 (May 1, 2009)

Map with all the proposed initial locations at http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/apr/27/cycling-transport


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (May 1, 2009)

<edit..sorry didn;t see the other three pages of the thread>


Sorry, I'm anyhow this morning. Will re-read this thread when I've got time.


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 1, 2009)

se5 said:


> Map with all the proposed initial locations at http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2009/apr/27/cycling-transport



Would have been a bit more useful if they supplied a larger map to actually see the exact locations in detail.

I wonder what these bikes will look like. I hope their nothing like the godawful yellow and green jobbies that seem to be in place in Hammersmith and Fulham. I wouldn't be seen dead riding one of those.


----------



## sim667 (May 1, 2009)

ajdown said:


> It's queuejumping.  Not giving consideration to other road users.



I queue jump in my car too.....

Break the mould


----------



## mattie (May 1, 2009)

HackneyE9 said:


> I lived in Paris and experienced the velib first hand. I suspect it won't work in London because:
> 
> * They are not putting enough bikes in. It has to be SWAMPED. Paris works because you don't have to know where the bikes or docking stations are - they are everywhere.
> * Paris is cheap beyond chips. 29 euros for a year's (sic, year) pass. Ie 20 quid. Every journey (under 30 mins) then free.
> ...



I used the Paris bikes for a week or so back in 2007, when there were still bugs to be ironed out but the concept had obviously been successful.

The main problem was the return of bikes - many, many peple all make the same types of journey at the same time, so that if I wanted to ride down to the Louvre from the Science park in the morning I'd struggle to find a bike at the start and then struggle to find a free bay at the end.  The situation reverses in the late afternoon.  

There were vans travelling round servicing the bikes and 'seeding' the racks, but I would argue you need a far greater number of bays than bikes to make sure you don't have to cylce further away than you started in order to drop the bike.  Is there space in London, near tube stops or attractions, to locate these?  This happened a couple of times in Paris, once by the Eiffel Tower and once near a restaurant we were meeting in (forget where). 

Re. the inability to lock the bikes to anything else, the point is that there should be enough bikes to dock one, do your shopping, walk the few hundred yards to the bays and take another.  As you only have 1/2hour of hire time (the charges are really there to discourage longer hires) in my opinion it's really intended to support 1-way hire.  Encouraging round trips would mitigate the need for more bays, but I think commuting was where the problem lay.

Of course, this is all Paris' interpretation/implementation, I suspect London may need to do things differently.  I worry about how the cycle paths would work, Paris kerbed off set cycle lanes on the major roads, would that work in London, or would we end up with touritsts riding on pavements?

Also, the Paris scheme is essentially funded by advertising rights on the bays, so expcet loads more hoardings about the place.


----------



## se5 (May 1, 2009)

skyscraper101 said:


> Would have been a bit more useful if they supplied a larger map to actually see the exact locations in detail.
> 
> I wonder what these bikes will look like. I hope their nothing like the godawful yellow and green jobbies that seem to be in place in Hammersmith and Fulham. I wouldn't be seen dead riding one of those.



A member of the London Cycling Campaign in Lambeth has plotted the proposed Lambeth locations on a google map - http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?ms...1.499179,-0.124111&spn=0.044188,0.132179&z=14 which offers more detail


----------



## skyscraper101 (May 1, 2009)

Useful. If I'm ever in Lambeth I guess.


----------



## se5 (May 1, 2009)

Looking further the spreadsheet the Guardian article links to has a listing of the sites - see http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=rz6fDPld_pCqaSFw1cMM9DQ Click on the borough name at the bottom of the page (probably some nerd is creating an appropriate google map at this very moment). As I undertsand it these are only proposals and subject to getting planning consent etc so when its actually rolled out the locations might be slightly different.


----------



## beeboo (Jun 15, 2009)

*bump* because I was in Paris this weekend, used the Velib scheme, loved it and am now very excited about it arriving in London 

I think it could totally change the way you engage with the city.  As tourists we hopped about all over the place in an unplanned way because it was so easy to zip about backwards and forwards, and I can see how that could translate back to my home environment too - journeys that would be too far to walk and either impractical or hassle-y to make by tube will suddenly become easy.  



mattie said:


> Re. the inability to lock the bikes to anything else, the point is that there should be enough bikes to dock one, do your shopping, walk the few hundred yards to the bays and take another.  As you only have 1/2hour of hire time (the charges are really there to discourage longer hires) in my opinion it's really intended to support 1-way hire.



I can see how there would be more demand for that in Paris, with the different style of shopping - I saw quite a few people leaving the bikes outside boulangaries and the like, because they're popping in to make a transaction that's going to take 5 mins tops.  It suits the way they shop.  

The devil is definitely in the detail with this though.  We didn't find any problems in Paris with the distribution of bikes - we never came across a dock which didn't have bikes, or that didn't have a few spaces - although some were close to empty and others close to full, so you could see how it could easily happen.  If you can't be fairly confident of getting a bike when you need one and dropping it off where you want to, then the system falls to pieces.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 15, 2009)

I think London is totally ready for this. Most excellent.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 16, 2009)

beeboo said:


> The devil is definitely in the detail with this though.  We didn't find any problems in Paris with the distribution of bikes - we never came across a dock which didn't have bikes, or that didn't have a few spaces - although some were close to empty and others close to full, so you could see how it could easily happen.  If you can't be fairly confident of getting a bike when you need one and dropping it off where you want to, then the system falls to pieces.



Yeah, I hope they don't make the mistake here of installing it half-heartedly, then watching it fail because it has been done half-heartedly, and then saying, oh well, what a shame that didn't work.


----------



## beeboo (Jun 16, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Yeah, I hope they don't make the mistake here of installing it half-heartedly, then watching it fail because it has been done half-heartedly, and then saying, oh well, what a shame that didn't work.



I read the feasibility study that TfL did, and they did acknowledge that you couldn't do a pilot exercise or anything because the scale of the scheme would be critical to its success - ie you've got to do it wholeheartedly, or it will fail.

They've been able to learn from a couple of other big cities, so they shouldn't make any rookie errors.  My only worry is some unexpected 'London Factor' confounds it.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 16, 2009)

beeboo said:


> My only worry is some unexpected 'London Factor' confounds it.



..and he goes by the name of Boris Johnson.

There's been so much pressure on TfL to deliver this for May next year that safety concerns have been decidedly overlooked.  Thankfully it looks like the _go live _date has to be rolled back until suppliers can deliver the scheme..  if ever..


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 16, 2009)

Any word on pricing yet?

CD, you are saying this won't be ready for next May?


----------



## citydreams (Jun 16, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> Any word on pricing yet?
> 
> CD, you are saying this won't be ready for next May?



Pricing is still dependent upon awarding the winning bid to supply the scheme.. There has been some modelling work done, but it's all finger in the air type stuff.

The only real news comes from Mayor's Question Time



			
				BoJo in response to Question No: 925 / 2009 said:
			
		

> In the original business plan, £5m was set aside for cycle hire in 2009/10 and £41m in
> 2010/11. The latest approved plan provides £52m in 2009/10 and a net £3m the following
> year. No money has been brought forward on other cycling projects.



I think the May date is way too optimistic..  the rumour is that no-one can deliver the bikes in time.


----------



## ddraig (Jun 16, 2009)

slim chance this or something similar 'may' come to Cardiff as well!


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 16, 2009)

citydreams said:


> Pricing is still dependent upon awarding the winning bid to supply the scheme.. There has been some modelling work done, but it's all finger in the air type stuff.



Obviously don't answer this question if you are not allowed to, but is it likely to be in the same ball park as a one day travel card?

BTW I know your politics differs from the Mayor's but I don't think it is *neccesarily* a bad thing that Mayor Johnson is putting you under pressure to deliver for a specific date. Ultimately it is your job (TfL's I mean) to deliver services, and the Mayor's job to hold you to account in doing so.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 16, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> Obviously don't answer this question if you are not allowed to, but is it likely to be in the same ball park as a one day travel card?



We didn't get to see the original pricing model..  Internal politics of TfL has gone crazy over bike policy (try finding out what the cycle working group has achieved in 6 months of arse scratching!!)

We hypothesised on the basis of 6000 bikes used 6 or 7 times a day with a budget of around £140 million written off over a five year period.. meaning each trip would 'cost'  £1.85.

Then, suddenly, the assumed number of trips per day increased. Fancy that..!

Unfortunately it seems that the oyster card cannot be used with the cycle hire scheme on roll out due to technological incompatability..  And pricewise, nothing is competely certain.  We're still a long long way from being able to speculate on who/when/where &c the cycles will be used.  



> BTW I know your politics differs from the Mayor's but I don't think it is *neccesarily* a bad thing that Mayor Johnson is putting you under pressure to deliver for a specific date. *Ultimately it is your job (TfL's I mean) to deliver services, and the Mayor's job to hold you to account in doing so*.



Aye, but we should also have a duty of care to the public.  That seems to be forgotten in the race to deliver the Mayor's re-election campaign, sorry, cycle improvments.


----------



## teuchter (Jun 16, 2009)

Like i said earlier in the thread...surely this ought to be included in the cost of a travelcard, not in addition to it? If the intention is to reduce the demand on other modes of transport.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 16, 2009)

Massive fail if you can't use Oyster


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 16, 2009)

citydreams said:


> We hypothesised on the basis of 6000 bikes used 6 or 7 times a day with a budget of around £140 million written off over a five year period.. meaning each trip would 'cost'  £1.85.


Revenue projection: 6.5 x £1.85 x 7 = £84.17 per bike per week.

Oh I see, the scheme breaks even at 6.5 journey's per day and  £1.85 per journey.


The scheme breaking down, per bike, to £2,330 over the four years - at that £1.85 per journey.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 16, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Massive fail if you can't use Oyster



Agree totally.


----------



## christonabike (Jun 17, 2009)

> Unfortunately it seems that the oyster card cannot be used with the cycle hire scheme on roll out due to technological incompatability



I know this may be a niave question, but why aren't problems like these ironed out first?

If people on a bullitin board can ask about these things, how come no-one else in a position to do something about it didn't say so? Something along the lines of: "Well, people need to be able to use their Oyster Cards with this scheme, it's not rocket science, lets do it......"

Ta


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> Agree totally.


I'll reiterate - massive intense mega-fail. Velib can use Navigo, so this should use Oyster. Point 1 on the agenda guys!


----------



## citydreams (Jun 17, 2009)

Not our fault!!

Boris wants cycle hire at whatever cost.  Doesn't matter that he stood for "value for money".  He's going to spunk as much money as possible on shiny new bikes.

p.s.. This is the same Boris who 'lost' several bikes left unlocked outside Westminster Palace because he expected the security guards to look after them.  Parp! Parp!


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

So if he's spunking money, why can't some be spent on oyster integration? Is there any way of making my opinion known to someone who counts?


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 17, 2009)

How is Paris costed - do we know if it breaks even?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

It's a secret. Velib is financed by an advertising company (they get free access to half the hoardings associated with the scheme)

http://newmobilityagenda.blogspot.com/2009/02/reports-of-velibs-demise-greatly.html


> The basic structure of the Vélib contract works like this. JCDecaux runs the whole system in exchange for the rights to 1,600 outdoor displays, turning its profit from selling that ad space. The city of Paris keeps the revenue from Vélib user fees, so it can claim to provide the service at no taxpayer expense.





> It's difficult to know the exact figure -- and how much is profit -- because JCDecaux guards the data like a nuclear secret. Even the precise cost of replacing one Vélib bicycle remains unknown to the public. Inquiries we sent to JCDecaux's headquarters in Paris have not been returned.



I have no idea how the London scheme will be funded.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 17, 2009)

citydreams said:


> Not our fault!!
> 
> Boris wants cycle hire at whatever cost.  Doesn't matter that he stood for "value for money".  He's going to spunk as much money as possible on shiny new bikes.



I'm sorry, Citydreams, this just doesn't add up. Now I realise you post on these boards voluntarily, on a personal basis, and not as some sort of spokesman for TfL. But if there really is loads of money being 'spunked' on this, then how come you can't make it Oyster compatitable. It isn't rocket science, as another poster said. 




> p.s.. This is the same Boris who 'lost' several bikes left unlocked outside Westminster Palace because he expected the security guards to look after them.  Parp! Parp!



I really don't get the relevance of this at all.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> So if he's spunking money, why can't some be spent on oyster integration? Is there any way of making my opinion known to someone who counts?



That's the thing.  Procurement is already in place for the preplanned Oyster upgrade.  Contracts already stipulate when they need to deliver by.  More money will be spent on Oyster integration, but only once money has already been spent on some other type of payment channel to ensure that cycle hire can happen by May 2010.

If Boris held off on the cycle hire scheme for another year then it could all be done at once.

I think it's worth writing to your London Assembly Member more than TfL.  It's not their decision.

Another bugbear is that even once Oyster is intergrated into the cycle hire scheme, that doesn't mean that you will be able to use your travelcard to take a bike.  There are no plans in place for that.  That would require a Mayor with cajones to neogtiate with the Train Operation Compaines for a resettlement over travelcard revenue.  I can't see it happening.  The TOCs have only just finished twisting our arm over the introduction of the Oyster barriers.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 17, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> I really don't get the relevance of this at all.




Basically, the financing of the cycle hire scheme is left to someone who can't even be bothered to lock his own bike up, no mater how many times it gets nicked from the same place.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

citydreams said:


> That's the thing.  Procurement is already in place for the preplanned Oyster upgrade.  Contracts already stipulate when they need to deliver by.  More money will be spent on Oyster integration, but only once money has already been spent on some other type of payment channel to ensure that cycle hire can happen by May 2010.
> 
> If Boris held off on the cycle hire scheme for another year then it could all be done at once.
> 
> ...


Well I wouldn't expect to use my travelcard to hire the bike - I was thinking more along the lines of only allowing registered Oysters to hire bikes, and for the hire cost to come out of PAYG.

The cycle scheme just needs to make sure their cards and readers are technically the same as Oyster, so that the switch-over can be as smooth as possible.


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

Well, I've emailed tfl using their cyclehire@tfl.gov.uk address, asking about Oyster, so let's see what the official line is...


----------



## t0bytoo (Jun 17, 2009)

The scheme in Barcelona requires you to register with a credit card and (iirc) 150 euro deposit. It takes ages to get the card, so is only available to residents - which is probably fair enough.

I think it's a great scheme for any city. Some of the things I noticed:

When they first started running the scheme the big headache was that everyone wanted to park the bikes in the same place at the same time. e.g. beach, centre of town, etc. You'd end up going back to where you started to leave the bike. They do a fair bit of ferrying bikes around in big trucks to sort this out.

In the first few months I saw a lot of accidents. Some quite bloody. Struck me that a lot of people were getting on bikes after years and years not riding them, and doing stupid things.

After a couple of years most of the bikes were really tatty. They don't last long. That'd get expensive.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Jun 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well, I've emailed tfl using their cyclehire@tfl.gov.uk address, asking about Oyster, so let's see what the official line is...



Will you post up any reply?


----------



## Crispy (Jun 17, 2009)

absolutely


----------



## beeboo (Jun 17, 2009)

t0bytoo said:


> In the first few months I saw a lot of accidents. Some quite bloody. Struck me that a lot of people were getting on bikes after years and years not riding them, and doing stupid things.



One thing that struck me about the Paris Velibs was that the bikes are incredibly heavy (for good reason) and were in variable states of repair (eg dodgy brakes).  They were fine for cruising along, but I found the lack of speed and agility quite unnerving - I'm normally confident riding in traffic but I wasn't comfortable at all on a busy road with a Velib.

Paris specific problem, but I didn't like the way that the bus/cycle lanes were curbed-off from the rest of the road - it meant that there wasn't much room for taxis and buses to give you a decent berth when passing, unless you were riding in the gutter.


----------



## citydreams (Jun 17, 2009)

GLA Budget & Performance Committee said:
			
		

> the bicycle hire project, which accounts for about a quarter of proposed environment spend, and over 80 per cent of the increase in the budget for this year, appears as yet to offer no targets and fit no strategic plan towards environmental mitiagation or improvement.



If anyone spots an air quality strategy, please let me know.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 17, 2009)

Crispy said:


> It's a secret. Velib is financed by an advertising company (they get free access to half the hoardings associated with the scheme)
> 
> I have no idea how the London scheme will be funded.


Instinctivley you think secrecy isn't good, but - based on citydreams' numbers - the cost (of the scheme) for one company to bear seems extremely high. Perhaps Paris has a very different model . . .


citydreams - My assumption is the Olympics provides the entire context now for delivery of the scheme?


----------



## mincepie (Jun 17, 2009)

Bus stops in some towns in the UK are funded the same way i think. Seems to work?


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 17, 2009)

mincepie said:


> Bus stops in some towns in the UK are funded the same way i think. Seems to work?


As I understand it, the scheme for London (6000 bikes) is costed at £140 million.


----------



## London_Calling (Jun 18, 2009)

In the newly revamped TfL Cycling site - London Cycle Hire scheme

The second pdf looks like it might be worth a nosey - tomorrow.


*Key facts*

Approximate numbers for the planned launch will include:

    * 6,000 cycles
    * 400 cycle stations
    * 10,500 docking points (allowing approximately 1.7 per cycle should ensure users can return bicycles to the docking point of their choice)
    * An area of approximately 44km2

Whether you are a commuter, shopper, local resident, business traveller, leisure user or a visitor to London, the Cycle Hire scheme offers greater choice of transport as well as being an environmentally friendly and healthy way to travel.

The Cycle Hire scheme will:

    * Be easy to use for short trips around Central London
    * Be available 24 hours a day, 365 days a year
    * Alleviate congestion on the Tube and buses
    * Offer a sustainable and low emission form of transport
    * Provide a shift from car usage to cycling
    * Encourage local trips within central London 

The scheme will offer an innovative addition to London's transport network. It will be good for London, good for Londoners and good for the environment.

We are in partnership with the boroughs of Camden, City of London, City of Westminster, Hackney, Islington, Lambeth, The Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea, The Royal Parks, Southwark and Tower Hamlets, to identify locations for the cycle stations. 




 - see the link for more info.




I do love a realistic 'artists impression'


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

It's official 




			
				Dave Hill said:
			
		

> the contract to set up and operate Mayor Johnson's flagship London Cycle Hire scheme has been won by Serco, the Richmond-based company that runs the Docklands Light Railway and the Woolwich Ferry.


http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2009/aug/12/boris-johnson-serco-bike-hire-london

There goes £140,000,000

or £4,000 per bike per year.

Chicken feed.


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> It's official
> 
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2009/aug/12/boris-johnson-serco-bike-hire-london
> ...



That seems quite expensive.  Does that costing include the initial set up?  ie - Will it be cheaper once the infrastructure is in place?

How does that compare with overall spend per head on things like Rail, Tube, Road?

P


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2009)

Sounds like that does include installation:



> TfL describes the deal as, "valued at approximately £140m over six years, split between installation and operation of the scheme"



TfL press release


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Well, I've emailed tfl using their cyclehire@tfl.gov.uk address, asking about Oyster, so let's see what the official line is...





Oswaldtwistle said:


> Will you post up any reply?





Crispy said:


> absolutely



So no reply nearly 2 months later?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> There goes £140,000,000
> 
> or £4,000 per bike per year.




"The contract with Serco is valued at approximately £140m over six years, split between installation and operation of the scheme. Revenue from the scheme will be paid directly to TfL"

When I looked at this a while ago, the software issue was a nightmare and I can't quite recall why . . . wasn't it to do with integrating it with Oyster . . . 

It's so difficult to price this project in terms of cost/value/benefit because different aspects of the project have radically different lifespans as well as different maintenance projections - at least in my non-professional opinion.

The physical and electronic infrastructure (400 docking stations and the software) do seem to be pretty much a one-off expense that can be written down over an extended period . . . those aspects aren't a write-off over the initial six-year period.

No mention of sponsorship yet?


----------



## Crispy (Aug 12, 2009)

skyscraper101 said:


> So no reply nearly 2 months later?


 yes, they replied ages ago



> Dear Mr Crispy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

Hmmmm:


> There will be 6,000 bikes provided under a system described as being "based on, but not identical to," Montreal's BIXI scheme. TfL's press release continues:



This is an overview of the BIXI scheme - interestingly, it only launced 3-4 months ago.


Promo on YouTube:



Official explanations:
http://www.bixisystem.com/bixi_system/


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Hmmmm:
> 
> 
> This is an overview of the BIXI scheme - interestingly, it only launced 3-4 months ago.
> ...









Those docking stations seem to suggest a high incidence of buckled front wheels to me.


----------



## beeboo (Aug 12, 2009)

So Serco get £140m over 6 years to deliver the scheme, and all the revenue goes back to TfL?  

Is there an assumption that this will break even?  Given that individual journeys will be low/no cost, where will the revenue come from.  I can't imagine they can make any money on this.  Not that is a reason for not doing it, but the benefits aren't going to be economic are they? 

Also I'd be interested to know if/how Serco will be incentivised to maximise the number of journeys made.  As has been seen in Paris and elsewhere, reliability is key, which means that they bikes have to be well maintained and available to pick up and drop off where you want (so you need redistribution of bikes).  How will Serco's performance on this kind of reliability be measured?


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

BigPhil said:


> How does that compare with overall spend per head on things like Rail, Tube, Road?



Bus, tube and rail are currently subsidised at around 10 pence per passenger kilometer.

Say revenue per bike is £1 per half hour, and that each bike is ridden 3 hours per day = £2000/annum

Then if average speed is 10km/hour = 30km/day

Subsidy would = 15pence/km (excluding any costs bourne by TfL for administration, network management, additional accidents, pollution...)


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

I suppose, arguably, part of the initial £140m cost for this will come from the Congestion Charge - after the Congestion Charge has paid for all those bus lane cameras and part paid for the busses. Again, more up-front capital expenditure that can be written down over extended periods - and, of course, the CC just keeps giving year after year.

All quiet on the sponsorship front - Virgin, anyone? Right up the capitalist hippy's street, this.

Determined to look green and efficient for 2012 aren't they.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> I suppose, arguably, part of the initial £140m cost for this will come from the Congestion Charge -.




Not sure... I wonder how much the removal of WEZ is costing TfL..   Funding is coming from the pot of money set aside to improve air quality    see http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9287747&postcount=127

Unfortunately, no one seems interested that dumping a lot of cycles in central London is going to slow speeds considerably for all road users... leading to more pollution.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

Dave Hill's blog said:
			
		

> the start up element of the cost of the scheme is £71 million - quite a lot more than the estimate of £52 million provided to Jenny Jones a while back in answer to a qestion to the Mayor.



http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/davehillblog/2009/aug/12/boris-johnson-serco-bike-hire-london


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> Unfortunately, no one seems interested that dumping a lot of cycles in central London is going to slow speeds considerably for all road users... leading to more pollution.


Has this been the experience elsewhere? It must surely be dependent on cycle lane provision. And I'm also a little confused how lower speeds increase pollution, assuming lower speeds and stationary traffic congestion aren't the same thing.

I presume this is also all linked with the super highway plan as well . . .


----------



## Crispy (Aug 12, 2009)

The super highway plan doesn't tie in with the cyclehire scheme at all. Most of the 'highways' terminate before they reach the center, which is where the hire scheme will operate. One's for commuters, the other's for occasionals and tourists.


----------



## beeboo (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> Not sure... I wonder how much the removal of WEZ is costing TfL..   Funding is coming from the pot of money set aside to improve air quality    see http://www.urban75.net/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=9287747&postcount=127
> 
> Unfortunately, no one seems interested that dumping a lot of cycles in central London is going to slow speeds considerably for all road users... leading to more pollution.



Arguably cramming the roads full of incompetent tourist cyclists will frustrate other road users to such degree that they stop driving in central London altogether 

But seriously I'm not really clear on how it's supposed to help reduce air pollution - surely most of the journeys are either going to be new/generated (trips which wouldn't have been made by any mode if not for the scheme) or substituting public transport (tube or bus).  I can't imagine there is going to be much substitution from car.  Although I suppose it might free up more space on public transport which encourages substitution from car > PT.

I still think it is A Good Thing, but it's hard to pin the benefits down to something other than 'making London a nicer place'.


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 12, 2009)

City Dreams - I'm interested in your comment about more bikes meaning the city will be more polluted.  Do you know any evidence to show this?  Surely replace oil powered transport with pedal powered there must be less pollution.  It's because the car is there in the first place that there is pollution.  If the car struggles to overtake it's because there are cars coming the other way stopping it.

I get your point about bikes sometimes slowing cars - but my experience when I ride is any vehicle that overtakes I come across again at the next set of lights.  If anything I would have thought when cycles act to calm the traffic between lights.  There traffic maintains a more average speed and are more efficient.  I've heard people say that the average cycling speed is faster than the average speed of driving.


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 12, 2009)

beeboo said:


> Arguably cramming the roads full of incompetent tourist cyclists will frustrate other road users to such degree that they stop driving in central London altogether
> 
> But seriously I'm not really clear on how it's supposed to help reduce air pollution - surely most of the journeys are either going to be new/generated (trips which wouldn't have been made by any mode if not for the scheme) or substituting public transport (tube or bus).  I can't imagine there is going to be much substitution from car.  Although I suppose it might free up more space on public transport which encourages substitution from car > PT.
> 
> I still think it is A Good Thing, but it's hard to pin the benefits down to something other than 'making London a nicer place'.



I'd be interested if the Paris scheme has had any knock on effects of how people get around.

After using the Velib and realising how easy it is to get around on a bike perhaps people who rarely ride a bike now do so regularly.  Not just the Velib bikes but they start to use their own bikes again rather than their car - even if they don't regularly go to areas covered by the Velib scheme.

Also in Paris I believe they have a far better cycle infrastructure now.  Surely as it get easier for people to get around on bikes people will use their cars less?


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

BigPhil said:


> City Dreams - I'm interested in your comment about more bikes meaning the city will be more polluted.  Do you know any evidence to show this?  Surely replace oil powered transport with pedal powered there must be less pollution.  It's because the car is there in the first place that there is pollution.  If the car struggles to overtake it's because there are cars coming the other way stopping it.



A study was done looking into the Parliament Square scheme to try to determine the pcu (passenger car unit - basically a measure of effect on the network) value for bicycles.  Traditionally a value pof 0.25 is used as a global value, but obviously bikes take up different amounts of space depending where they are (e.g. they take up less space on the main body of a road than at a junction..) and how many bikes there are &c.. 

Using the results of the Parliament Square study (and comparing to traditional 0.25 PCU values), models were run for investigating the possibility of increasing cycle levels in London to meet Boris' vision of a 4-fold increase.  

As most new cycle trips in Central London would be coming from public transport rather than from cars, the net effect would be increase demand on the network by about 10% (i.e 1 bus = 3 pcus. 1 bus carries 25 people.  If 5 left the bus to become cyclists, then 5/25 * 3 pcus are removed, but 5 * 0.25 pcus are added).

The net effect is that speeds in central London would fall by around 6% in equilibrium.

A 6% fall in speeds in central london is equivalent to....  <starts computer....>


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

Fwiw, I find it very difficult to look at any aspect of the transport policy in isolation - whether it's start-up costs or immediate consequences - it's just all so complicated, and it seems impossible to predict how the public react, especially indirectly.

I suppose, above all, it's a process perhaps begun with Oyster and the CC, developed with the income from the CC (to, for example, police bus lane compliance with CCTV), more busses, upgrading the tube, and now moving forward with the cycle scheme.

I have no idea how far London is through this 'journey' but it's been a pretty amazing 6 years since Oyster.


p.s. here's the grandest version of the super highway scheme


----------



## Crispy (Aug 12, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> p.s. here's the grandest version of the super highway scheme



Clearly shows the lack of cross-center routes. Unsurprising considering how narrow and congested most of them are. Although I reckon a Strand/Embankment East-West route really should be included to link some of them up. Those are wide roads that can cope with nice big cycle lanes.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

A 6% fall in speeds in central london is equivalent to....  

a 4% increase in CO2 to 21,000 tonnes/year in Central London

a 5% increase in PM to 3 tonnes/year in Central London

a 4% increase in NOX to 76 tonnes/year in Central London

This doesn't include any effects of changes in speeds in inner & outer London resulting from central london congestion..  but there will be a knock on effect as queues will build back from central London across the network.

(Change in PM does not include tyre & brake wear).


----------



## Crispy (Aug 12, 2009)

BUT, the scheme could increase takeup of cycling in more general terms, thus reducing local car trips to the shops etc.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

ok.. hazard a guess at the change in veh-km in Inner/Outer London and I'll run the resulting change in emissions...


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 12, 2009)

Citydreams, I agree only a handful of these trips will be switches from private cars, and the majority will be switches from public transport.

However I'm willing to bet a sizeable minority will be switches from taxis which will certainly benefit the environment


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> However I'm willing to bet a sizeable minority will be switches from taxis which will certainly benefit the environment



but the taxi will still be driving around looking for a pick up..


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Clearly shows the lack of cross-center routes. Unsurprising considering how narrow and congested most of them are. Although I reckon a Strand/Embankment East-West route really should be included to link some of them up. Those are wide roads that can cope with nice big cycle lanes.


It's glaring isn't it. I thought about the Embankment, but also Marylebone/Euston Road/City Road - or  rather a jink to the south.

Maybe it'll be a process.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> but the taxi will still be driving around looking for a pick up..


If ever there was a case for electric bloody cars . . .


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> A 6% fall in speeds in central london is equivalent to....


but why is this?

This is slower speed not traffic becoming stationary: Higher speed = less pollution


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> A study was done looking into the Parliament Square scheme to try to determine the pcu (passenger car unit - basically a measure of effect on the network) value for bicycles.  Traditionally a value pof 0.25 is used as a global value, but obviously bikes take up different amounts of space depending where they are (e.g. they take up less space on the main body of a road than at a junction..) and how many bikes there are &c..
> 
> Using the results of the Parliament Square study (and comparing to traditional 0.25 PCU values), models were run for investigating the possibility of increasing cycle levels in London to meet Boris' vision of a 4-fold increase.
> 
> ...



How does this fit in with the fact that TfL have been promoting cycle use quite heavily for a few years now? As in, this is not just a Boris thing - it was being promoted during the Ken era too. Why, if the studies suggest it will worsen congestion?


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> A study was done looking into the Parliament Square scheme to try to determine the pcu (passenger car unit - basically a measure of effect on the network) value for bicycles.  Traditionally a value pof 0.25 is used as a global value, but obviously bikes take up different amounts of space depending where they are (e.g. they take up less space on the main body of a road than at a junction..) and how many bikes there are &c..
> 
> Using the results of the Parliament Square study (and comparing to traditional 0.25 PCU values), models were run for investigating the possibility of increasing cycle levels in London to meet Boris' vision of a 4-fold increase.
> 
> ...



Thanks for that.

But to me one study of a junction / square cannot really be translated to a whole city's infrastructure.

I also very much doubt that every new journey by bike will be someone who used to travel by bus.

It does not also take into account the cultural change that may happen when people get used to making journeys by bike, rather than relying on their car. 

I just started looking for other ways to measure this kind of thing - there's masses out there, including this site suggesting that bikes are easier to accommodate that buses but I should be working now so no time to take it in!

http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm104.htm


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

teuchter said:


> How does this fit in with the fact that TfL have been promoting cycle use quite heavily for a few years now? As in, this is not just a Boris thing - it was being promoted during the Ken era too. Why, if the studies suggest it will worsen congestion?



TfL were previously promoting *safer* cycling.. They were funding cycling networks away from the main traffic, publishing maps, providing training, and improving infrastructure..

This is a Boris thing.  He has a list of policies that *must* happen.. seriously.  This is on his list.  It will happen, no matter what.

Cycle hire was on Ken's list too, and we'll never know how he would have administered the scheme, but I know who I would rather push it through..


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

BigPhil said:


> But to me one study of a junction / square cannot really be translated to a whole city's infrastructure.



it isn't a study of just one square.. That was the historic background.. an analysis of PCU values allowed for some new analysis on cycling.. 




> I also very much doubt that every new journey by bike will be someone who used to travel by bus.



the figures I quoted don't use that assumption.. more like 40%



> I just started looking for other ways to measure this kind of thing - there's masses out there, including this site suggesting that bikes are easier to accommodate that buses but I should be working now so no time to take it in!
> 
> http://www.vtpi.org/tdm/tdm104.htm



wrong country


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> but why is this?
> 
> This is slower speed not traffic becoming stationary: Higher speed = less pollution



emission curves are parabolic..   even if you're not going anywhere you're still emitting pollution..


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> TfL were previously promoting *safer* cycling.. They were funding cycling networks away from the main traffic, publishing maps, providing training, and improving infrastructure..
> 
> This is a Boris thing.  He has a list of policies that *must* happen.. seriously.  This is on his list.  It will happen, no matter what.
> 
> Cycle hire was on Ken's list too, and we'll never know how he would have administered the scheme, but I know who I would rather push it through..



My impression (simply as someone who has been living in London for the last ten years or so, seeing adverts and so forth as I go about my business) has very much been that in, say, the last five years or so, cycling has been quite heavily promoted as a means of getting about in London. I've seen posters suggesting that people get on their bikes, not just measures to improve safety.

I don't see it as a particular change of policy attributable to Boris (I'm not a Boris fan by the way). Like you say, the Velib scheme was instigated by Ken.

In actual fact, I have always been a little sceptical about cycling being a solution to London's transport problems, for various reasons (I remember starting a thread a couple of years back asking why it was promoted when it's one of the most dangerous modes of transport there is - the answer seemed to be that the health benefits were calculated to outweigh the safety risks). Intuitively, it has seemed to me that once there a lot of bikes on the road, they are likely to cause congestion, and also that they appear a less efficient use of roadspace than buses. But I know that TfL carries out a lot of study into these things, and that its policy decisions (under Ken at least) are generally quite well informed by these studies.

So I'm a little surprised to learn about these studies you mention. It's just a bit confusing. Either Ken wasn't paying attention to them, or there was a miscommunication of a message which I interpreted as "use bikes more".


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

The Centre of Cycling Excellence @ TfL had targets to increase cycling in London as cycling had been on the decline for certain age groups / genders.  And cycling levels elsewhere were so small as to be practically dangerous.

The studies I've mentioned are post-Ken.

The difference now is that cycling has become much more popular.. roughly 10% of vehicles crossing Vauxhall Bridge at certain hours of the day, so the marginal effect of each additional cyclist on road congestion is that much larger.

And the other difference is that we now have a legal obligation to improve air quality in London or else face heavty fines from the EU.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> emission curves are parabolic..   even if you're not going anywhere you're still emitting pollution..


I haven't explained my confusion at all well; if I understoof you correctly, the argument is that lower vehicle speeds (induced by higher cycling uptake) equals more vehicle pollution i.e 


> A 6% fall in speeds in central london is equivalent to....
> 
> a 4% increase in CO2 to 21,000 tonnes/year in Central London
> 
> ...


Is the increased pollution  inferred from the belief that lower vehicle speeds must mean longer journey times?


----------



## citydreams (Aug 12, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Is the increased pollution  inferred from the belief that lower vehicle speeds must mean longer journey times?



Yes, but also from the fact that speeds in central London are on the downward slope of the emissions-curve.  i/e an increase in speeds means engines work more efficiently and produce less emissions .. the marginal improvement in emissions continues until the engine reaches its sweet spot, where the gradient on the parabola is zero.  So, taking the current situation, a decrease in speeds means a move up the slope = more emissions/km as the engine is working harder. 

This was all explained to Boris, in person.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> but the taxi will still be driving around looking for a pick up..



In the short term,yes. In the longer term, might this scheme mean slightly fewer taxis? 

IMHO they are not a particularly 'green' form of transport, despite their Congestion Charge exemption.....


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> Yes, but also from the fact that speeds in central London are on the downward slope of the emissions-curve.  i/e an increase in speeds means engines work more efficiently and produce less emissions .. the marginal improvement in emissions continues until the engine reaches its sweet spot, where the gradient on the parabola is zero.  So, taking the current situation, a decrease in speeds means a move up the slope = more emissions/km as the engine is working harder.
> 
> This was all explained to Boris, in person.


Thanks for that. Very interesting.

Kick him in the nuts for me.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> IMHO they are not a particularly 'green' form of transport, despite their Congestion Charge exemption.....



I think there's an argument that if they can fill the gaps at the ends of journeys otherwise made by public transport, they are worth allowing.

ie. the kind of people who would get a train into London and then a taxi, instead of a bus, to their final destination: at least that's better than them driving all the way which might be their second choice.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 12, 2009)

teuchter said:


> I think there's an argument that if they can fill the gaps at the ends of journeys otherwise made by public transport, they are worth allowing.
> 
> ie. the kind of people who would get a train into London and then a taxi, instead of a bus, to their final destination: at least that's better than them driving all the way which might be their second choice.



Would be better still if they caught a train then got one of these bikes.

I accept this would need a major culture shift.


----------



## fjydj (Aug 12, 2009)

Crispy said:


> Clearly shows the lack of cross-center routes. Unsurprising considering how narrow and congested most of them are. Although I reckon a Strand/Embankment East-West route really should be included to link some of them up. Those are wide roads that can cope with nice big cycle lanes.



Arrrgh there is still no convenient and safe way to cycle into the west end from South London 

7 routes end at the edges of the City, one ends at Vauxhall and the other at Hyde Park Corner...using their numbers 12 and 8 need to be linked together as should 10 and 2.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

I actually really enjoy the back roads from Vauxhall Bridge around the back of Westminster into Horseguards, etc. Interesting area.

Agree, the City into the West End isn't ideal though it's not that far, tbf.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 12, 2009)

At this point I should declare an interest. 

From a purely selfish, self idulgent point of view I long to ride through Bloomsbury on a crisp early spring morning.

If it launches in Summer 2010 it looks like I'll have to wait til March 2011 for that, though.

I also like Boris. That means my replies here are not unbiased.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> dumping a lot of cycles in central London is going to slow speeds considerably for all road users



Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?


----------



## flash (Aug 12, 2009)

ExtraRefined said:


> Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?



No but it's just the general concept of having these dumped around with some inevitably on the carriageway effectively acting like a form of traffic calming it will inevitably slow traffic down, or take up lane space/capacity increasing saturation of the traffic flow.

Incidentally have these been approved from a planning application point of view yet?


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 12, 2009)

I've stated my bias. Notwithstanding that, I doubt we'll see PM jump 5%. The improvements in this between the vehicles of 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, and modern diesel vehicles are so great, 5% would be wiped out in a year, as older cars/buses/trucks are scrapped.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 12, 2009)

ExtraRefined said:


> Do you have any evidence to support this assertion?



He does, read on.


----------



## George & Bill (Aug 12, 2009)

citydreams said:


> A study was done looking into the Parliament Square scheme to try to determine the pcu (passenger car unit - basically a measure of effect on the network) value for bicycles.  Traditionally a value pof 0.25 is used as a global value, but obviously bikes take up different amounts of space depending where they are (e.g. they take up less space on the main body of a road than at a junction..) and how many bikes there are &c..
> 
> Using the results of the Parliament Square study (and comparing to traditional 0.25 PCU values), models were run for investigating the possibility of increasing cycle levels in London to meet Boris' vision of a 4-fold increase.
> 
> ...



Unless there's more to it, this method of analysis is so crude as to be near-useless, because it only operates on the level of the simple amount of space taken up by any given vehicle, rather than looking at how vehicles of widely varying sizes differ in the way they move within the flow of traffic. That is to say, bikes don't move around in rigid car-shaped groups of four, but instead filter flexibly through (or are filtered past, depending on the speed of the traffic). A large part - probably the majority- of the time, they occupy spaces within the flow of traffic that would otherwise be empty, and at these times their effect on congestion is almost nil.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 13, 2009)

The main part of a bike's pcu value is measured at intersections.  after all, it is the capacity at junctions that determines the speed on the network.
You then have to model the probability of a bike moving to the front of a queue (which depends on the size of the queue, which depends on the probability of a bike being at the front of the queue....).

If you can come up with a better way of estimating the effects of additional bicycles on the road network, please do let me know..


----------



## citydreams (Aug 13, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> I've stated my bias. Notwithstanding that, I doubt we'll see PM jump 5%. The improvements in this between the vehicles of 20 years ago, even 10 years ago, and modern diesel vehicles are so great, 5% would be wiped out in a year, as older cars/buses/trucks are scrapped.



not in central london... where taxis are over 15 years old already.. and tfl can't afford any new buses..  and people are swapping their petrol cars for diesels that pollute more... nope.. actually pollution is going up..


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 13, 2009)

Do you include the disincentive to drive - and even own a car - implicit in slower journey times?


----------



## ddraig (Aug 13, 2009)

*OYBike Confirmed for Cardiff*

the one we're having in Cardiff is OY BiKE
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/south_east/8197153.stm



			
				bbc said:
			
		

> Cardiff's Sustainable Travel City Scheme will be phased in up to and including 2011 and will be added to over the next five years.
> 
> The bike scheme, which is due to be run in Cardiff as a commercial venture by OYBike, is similar to a successful project in Paris and is set to begin on 22 September.
> 
> Blocks of bikes will be stationed in and around the city centre and once a bike is finished with it can be returned to any of the available stands.


and the pedestrianisation of the main city centre street also confirmed 




			
				bbc said:
			
		

> One of Cardiff's busiest streets will be fully pedestrianised by early 2010.
> 
> The traffic using St Mary Street has been restricted since August 2007 in a bid to cut pollution and noise.
> 
> The council is also introducing a bike scheme next month where the public can hire and ride bikes throughout the city centre, Cathays and Cardiff Bay.


----------



## fredfelt (Aug 13, 2009)

citydreams said:


> The main part of a bike's pcu value is measured at intersections.  after all, it is the capacity at junctions that determines the speed on the network.
> You then have to model the probability of a bike moving to the front of a queue (which depends on the size of the queue, which depends on the probability of a bike being at the front of the queue....).
> 
> If you can come up with a better way of estimating the effects of additional bicycles on the road network, please do let me know..



A bike moving to the front of a queue if anything probably has a calming effect on traffic.  I guess it could even help traffic flow better where there is heavy traffic.

Rather than traffic speeding ahead and then having to brake harder for the next junction traffic would maintain a more steady speed.  Less stop start driving = less pollution.

Another effect of this could be to make it easier for traffic to emerge from side streets as there are gaps in the traffic.

I see the point about if people move from buses to bikes and can see how this could perhaps slow down traffic - but I'm not convinced.  It's got to be really hard to develop a model to reflect all of these behaviours.  

One thing I find for sure is that any city that I go to that makes a proper effort to minimise cars is always a much more pleasant place to be in.

Must say I did not realise that I was such a nerd to be thinking about stuff like this!  At least I keep it contained in quiet moments at work.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 13, 2009)

anyone here been on a OYBike?






 thought the advertising would be on the stations, not the actual bikes


----------



## citydreams (Aug 13, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Do you include the disincentive to drive - and even own a car - implicit in slower journey times?



yup... convergence of equilibrium between speed with respect to flow, and demand with respect to speed.


----------



## citydreams (Aug 13, 2009)

BigPhil said:


> A bike moving to the front of a queue if anything probably has a calming effect on traffic.  I guess it could even help traffic flow better where there is heavy traffic.



ha haa.. you don't cycle in London do you..  

The reason the parliament square study was so important was because it showed that cyclists could actually prevent cars from getting round.. as the traffic signal only have enough green time to let bikes through..!   



> Rather than traffic speeding ahead and then having to brake harder for the next junction traffic would maintain a more steady speed.  Less stop start driving = less pollution.



no.. smoother traffic means more chances for cars to enter the flow of traffic, therefore increasing the number of cars on the network.



> Another effect of this could be to make it easier for traffic to emerge from side streets as there are gaps in the traffic.



again, no..  bicycles tend to pull away from traffic lights faster than cars, and thus prevent anyone further down the road from turning.



> It's got to be really hard to develop a model to reflect all of these behaviours.



all in a day's job


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 13, 2009)

It's become a very interesting question . . . I take if TfL are on the leading edge of trying to understand these issues . . . quite a business opportunity in terms of around-the-world consultation . . .

I shall ponder the slower driving speed further . . .


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## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 13, 2009)

citydreams said:


> not in central london... where taxis are over 15 years old already..



which brings us back to my point about cycle hire replacing taxis. A ten year rolling age limit for taxis would be a no brainer IMHO



> and tfl can't afford any new buses..



Well if we weren't spending vast sums on Crossrail and HS1, we might be able to afford a decent bus service in this country. Yeah I know, different pots of money...

Anyway I thought London was having new buses to replace the bendies?




> and people are swapping their petrol cars for diesels that pollute more...



This, however, I agree with. Not sure what the answer is, but it certainly isn't to blame cyclists for slowing the traffic down!


----------



## citydreams (Aug 13, 2009)

Oswaldtwistle said:


> which brings us back to my point about cycle hire replacing taxis. A ten year rolling age limit for taxis would be a no brainer IMHO



It's on the cards, but the PCO are resisting heavily (suprise, suprise).    It won't come into effect till about 2014/5 anyway, as it would need to be introduced slowly..  But London needs to meet EU PM levels by 2011, and NOX by 2015..  The DfT are sympathetic, but aren't going to bail Boris out..




> Anyway I thought London was having new buses to replace the bendies?



Already have... but you need 1.5+ buses for each bendy you replace so you end up polluting more..

What I mean is, there is no money left for additional buses on top of the existing spending plan e.g hybrid buses would solve a lot of the pollution problems, but they're now out of our price range.. but £140,000,000 on cycle hire, no problem!!


----------



## handyman121 (Aug 13, 2009)

Has anyone mentioned the fact that lots of people would probably like to cycle and own a bike but they don't have anywhere to keep it. Lot's of people live in flats, which might mean leaving it ouside or in the hallway, blocking up fire exits etc. To be able to hire a bike and then just leave it for someone else to worry about maintenance, pumping up the tyres, checking the lights is a great plus for thousands.


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## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 13, 2009)

citydreams said:


> but £140,000,000 on cycle hire, no problem!!



Is that just for the cycle hire, or the whole shebag (superhighways, the lot)?


£140 mil is a lot of money, although stuff like crossrail is costing far, far more.


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## Cobbles (Aug 13, 2009)

se5 said:


> TfL have published details of the cycle hire scheme for London that they hope to introduce by 2010.
> 
> Tfl say "The scheme will allow you to pick up a cycle at a docking station, use it as you like, and then return it to any docking station.
> 
> ...



Why on earth would someone want to rent a self-propelled 2 wheeler that looks like something out of a 50's Ealing comedy when they can get into a nice dry taxi instead?

Do they float? - as far as I can see, their most useful function would be as canal landfill to allow the building of toll based high speed roads.


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## teuchter (Aug 13, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Why on earth would someone want to rent a self-propelled 2 wheeler that looks like something out of a 50's Ealing comedy when they can get into a nice dry taxi instead?



The answer to this

reveals itself

to the enlightened


----------



## ddraig (Aug 13, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Why on earth would someone want to rent a self-propelled 2 wheeler that looks like something out of a 50's Ealing comedy when they can get into a nice dry taxi instead?
> 
> Do they float? - as far as I can see, their most useful function would be as canal landfill to allow the building of toll based high speed roads.



come on cobbles TRY HARDER!


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## Cobbles (Aug 13, 2009)

ddraig said:


> come on cobbles TRY HARDER!


OK:

http://wheels.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/02/11/vandalism-vexes-paris-bike-rental-system/

_According to the BBC, Remi Pheulpin, JCDecaux’s director general, told Le Parisien that replacement and maintenance costs are “so high that a private business cannot handle it alone, especially as it’s a problem of public order. If we want the Velib setup to keep going, we’ll have to change the business model.”

_Presumably to one where the Local Authority that gets stitched up has to fund the entire capital costs up front, as well as replacement costs.

Oh well, it was a _nice idea (for the folks who got paid for the bikes/racks/payment machines).
_


----------



## teuchter (Aug 13, 2009)

Only 14 minutes googling effort!


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## London_Calling (Aug 13, 2009)

Scary:

PARIS CYCLE SCHEME IN NUMBERS
20,000 bicycles
1,250 stations
Cost 400 euros each to replace
7,800 "disappeared"
11,600 vandalised
1,500 daily repairs
Staff recover 20 abandoned bikes a day
Each bike travels 10,000 km a year
42 million users since launch

*Source: Velib*


----------



## Cobbles (Aug 13, 2009)

teuchter said:


> Only *14 minutes* googling effort!



Apparently about as long as the average velib boneshaker lasts.........


----------



## ddraig (Aug 13, 2009)

Cobbles said:


> Apparently about as long as the average velib boneshaker lasts.........



source?


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## flash (Aug 13, 2009)

As an FYI my comment about planning permission last night - they have permission for at least 25% of the docking stations apparently.


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## Crispy (Aug 13, 2009)

I did read somewhere that network rail isn't allowing any outside their stations. Can't find a link. Say it ain't so?


----------



## flash (Aug 13, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Scary:
> 
> PARIS CYCLE SCHEME IN NUMBERS
> 20,000 bicycles
> ...



Isn't it being based on the Montreal Bixi scheme?? (only 15% of the bikes vandalized since May 2009)


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## London_Calling (Aug 13, 2009)

flash said:


> Isn't it being based on the Montreal Bixi scheme?? (only 15% of the bikes vandalized since May 2009)




Where are we now, August? That's alright then !


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I did read somewhere that network rail isn't allowing any outside their stations. Can't find a link. Say it ain't so?



I vaguely recall hearing similar...


----------



## flash (Aug 13, 2009)

flash said:


> Isn't it being based on the Montreal Bixi scheme?? (only 15% of the bikes vandalized since May 2009)



Sorry I want to correct that - it's 15% of the docking stations that have been vandalised since May (it appears the paper in questions only visited 10% of the stations though 30 out of 300 - sorry my French is shocking - so it's not exactly solid figures or reporting). Approx. 20% of bikes vandalised over the same period and they are already looking at revised docking stations designs. And this is the one we are basing our scheme on?

Report is here:

http://www.cyberpresse.ca/actualites/regional/montreal/200907/05/01-881358-robuste-le-bixi.php

oh and also what you can do with the Paris bikes (I'm sure someone will make a British version somewhere on the South Bank):


----------



## deadringer (Aug 13, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> Scary:
> 
> PARIS CYCLE SCHEME IN NUMBERS
> 20,000 bicycles
> ...




so do those stats make it worthwhile or a waste of money?


----------



## deadringer (Aug 13, 2009)

handyman121 said:


> Has anyone mentioned the fact that lots of people would probably like to cycle and own a bike but they don't have anywhere to keep it. Lot's of people live in flats, which might mean leaving it ouside or in the hallway, blocking up fire exits etc. To be able to hire a bike and then just leave it for someone else to worry about maintenance, pumping up the tyres, checking the lights is a great plus for thousands.




or somewhere safe to leave it at night at stations, etc. think so many people are put off shelling out for a bike for fear of it getting robbed, vandelised, ect


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## Oswaldtwistle (Aug 13, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I did read somewhere that network rail isn't allowing any outside their stations. Can't find a link. Say it ain't so?



Found a link now http://www.eta.co.uk/London-cycle-hire-locations-revealed/node/12042 

"

A spokesperson for the Environmental Transport Association (ETA) said: “We wish this scheme every success, but it seems a shame that it appears there will be no docking stations at railway stations or in the Royal Parks.” 

"


----------



## flash (Aug 13, 2009)

deadringer said:


> so do those stats make it worthwhile or a waste of money?



Depends how tight the contract is and who has to pick up the bill for any fallout (if it's all tied in with the supplier - I have no issue with this as I think that they will be looking into a bottomless black hole). It's a blatant vanity project for Boris along with his Super Highways that you'll be able to cycle on with your hired bike.


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## ddraig (Aug 13, 2009)

velib v motorbike 



e2a another one!


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 13, 2009)

deadringer said:


> so do those stats make it worthwhile or a waste of money?


I suppose I'd think of it as a reality check. In fact another reality check  after citydreams explained the impact on pollution of greater cycling uptake.

Bit of a double-whammy. It's still a process though - six years since Oyster,  a few since the CC, who knows how the next 6 or 12 years of this process will bring . . .


----------



## citydreams (Aug 28, 2009)

http://www.transportxtra.com/magazines/local_transport_today/news/?id=17393


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## Mr T (Aug 28, 2009)

Crispy said:


> I did read somewhere that network rail isn't allowing any outside their stations. Can't find a link. Say it ain't so?



I'm pretty sure its not that Network Rail aren't allowing them, TfL aren't putting them near the stations to begin with because the initial feasibility study (pdf link) recommended against it, partly on the basis that they would be unlikely to be able to satisfy demand - it would look pretty silly if no-one arriving at Euston/Waterloo after about 7.30am was able to get on one because they'd all gone!  The Mayor has already committed to serving the major rail termini in a future phase of it I think.

The plan may be to monitor how the bikes in the 'Phase 1' deployment next May come to be used, and then plan 'Phase 2' on the basis of this evidence, because obviously its not just a case of putting them outside the stations, you'd need to have xx number more spaces in the rest of central London to park them.  There was an article in LTT last year about the Barcelona scheme which showed that much of the custom for the hire bikes was rail commuters switching from metro to bike for the last leg of their journey - good for relieving tube crowding but the impacts on the surface networks would need to be carefully considered, as well as actually finding the space for hundreds of extra bike racks outside eg Liverpool Street which would be a challenge.

One thing that has struck me about the recent progress of the scheme is the lack of Oyster-compatibility, which was originally promised.  A lot of the columnists comment about Boris as Mayor that he's not to good on details and is too easily given excuses by officials, and this would certainly seem to be evidence of it - I can't imagine Ken accepting this kop-out, which I would think will threaten the viability of the scheme much more than not serving the major stations.


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## teuchter (Sep 24, 2009)

I was in Lyon recently and they have one of these schemes there which I used several times. I thought it was pretty good. There are enough bike stations that you can just cycle around a bit till you find one and leave your bike there. A day card costs €1 for the first half hour and €2 for ever subsequent half hour (you have to give your card details for a €150 deposit too).

The bikes themselves are pretty heavy; built I guess to be vandal-proof. So I wouldn't have fancied cycling up a steep hill for any distance on one. But on the flat they are fine.

I suppose I took about 7 or 8 bikes over the course of a couple of days. Of those, on one the gears weren't working, one had a missing pedal and on one the chain was all jammed up. Not really a problem though because I just put them back and took another. There were a few occasions where there were no bikes left at a station but the computerised system let you know how many bikes were at other nearby stations.

They seemed to be pretty well used: I saw quite a lot of people out and about on them.

So from a user perspective, I'd say the scheme was working pretty well. I've no idea how it's doing in terms of costs/vandalism etc though. I did wonder about how long the bikes would last in London.


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## ddraig (Sep 24, 2009)

the ones in Cardiff 'OYBIKE' have started appearing and i was watching some cabbies confusedly inspecting one outside Cardiff central BR this morning.

not seen anyone on them yet mind (what with all the grief to register and have to be topped up at all times)
and one of the papers sent an idiot reporter out on one who concluded they'd prefer their warm car! 

i did crash one of terminals seeing how they work


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 7, 2009)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/local/london/hi/tv_and_radio/newsid_8293000/8293273.stm


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## mincepie (Dec 11, 2009)

It's pretty pricey!!!

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/london/8407715.stm

Hmmm


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

No cheaper than getting the bus, in many cases, then.

It's a rather strange pricing structure: price per hour _increases_ the longer you have it?


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## London_Calling (Dec 11, 2009)

The pricing is fine for me, the Oyster thing is crazy - though I understand the cost of integration was deemed too high. Great, great shame.


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## christonabike (Dec 11, 2009)

They are meant for small journeys

Park up

Do your stuff

Get another bike

Loved the one in Paris, got about all over 

Pity the docking stations are zone one, means you can't cycle from town to Brixton, and then pick up another bike and go back to town

Also, most of the scheme is north of the river and the docking stations aren't marked on the Tfl map

Doh!

The docking stations were all over Paris and I think this is why it worked


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## beeboo (Dec 11, 2009)

teuchter said:


> No cheaper than getting the bus, in many cases, then.
> 
> It's a rather strange pricing structure: price per hour _increases_ the longer you have it?



'cos they want to encourage short journeys, not people taking them off for a day trip down the Thames.  Similar pricing in Paris etc.

I don't understand the £1 'access fee' - is that per use?  In which case the first half hour isn't free, it's £1.


----------



## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

beeboo said:


> 'cos they want to encourage short journeys, not people taking them off for a day trip down the Thames.  Similar pricing in Paris etc.



Thinking about it, it does make sense if you want to keep as many bikes available at any time as possible.



> I don't understand the £1 'access fee' - is that per use?  In which case the first half hour isn't free, it's £1.



Yes I think so. This is how the one I used in Lyon works.

That's a bit rubbish that they are all in Zone 1 though. The main use I can imagine having for them would be to get home from town if I'd missed the last tube and couldn't be bothered hanging about for a night bus.


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## beeboo (Dec 11, 2009)

I just checked tfl press release and the 'access fee' is £1 a day, £5 a week or £45 a year.  Which is v. similar to Paris.  I'l. Def be tempted to pay the £45 for access for a year - as long as the distribution of bikes is good, can see me using it a lot.


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## London_Calling (Dec 11, 2009)

So £45.00 gets you 30 mins. a day for 12 months?


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> So £45.00 gets you 30 mins. a day for 12 months?



If it does, then that's pretty good. I'd be likely to go for that.


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## beeboo (Dec 11, 2009)

It gets you as many 30 mins per day as you want.  It's just limited to 30 mind at a time (between taking a bike and docking it again)


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## temper_tantrum (Dec 11, 2009)

What if you take it and don't dock it back in again? (Sorry if the answer is somewhere on the thread already)


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

beeboo said:


> It gets you as many 30 mins per day as you want.  It's just limited to 30 mind at a time (between taking a bike and docking it again)



In that case I fully approve of the pricing structure.


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

temper_tantrum said:


> What if you take it and don't dock it back in again? (Sorry if the answer is somewhere on the thread already)



You'll lose your deposit presumably. The French one I used, you had to pay a deposit of €150 or so, on your debit/credit card.


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## skyscraper101 (Dec 11, 2009)

I'm a bit pissed off the boundary ends at Notting Hill gate. Why not extend it down into Shepherds Bush? Its not as if there's not a bloody big shopping centre just two minutes further down the hill that people might want to access.


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## temper_tantrum (Dec 11, 2009)

teuchter said:


> You'll lose your deposit presumably. The French one I used, you had to pay a deposit of €150 or so, on your debit/credit card.



Oh right, I see - so if I nick off with a bike and cycle it home, and then cycle it in again tomorrow morning, I get charged whatever the relevant fee is onto my card?

Does this mean you have to have a card in order to use them?


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

Think so yes.


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## skyscraper101 (Dec 11, 2009)

Rickshaws for hire would be good actually.


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## London_Calling (Dec 11, 2009)

The full feasibility study  makes for interesting reading. They looked in depth at Paris, Lyon, Brussels, Barca, Berlin, Stuttgart and the OYBike scheme - a broad range of schemes.


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## teuchter (Dec 11, 2009)

London_Calling said:


> The full feasibility study  makes for interesting reading. They looked in depth at Paris, Lyon, Brussels, Barca, Berlin, Stuttgart and the OYBike scheme - a broad range of schemes.



Interesting reading indeed.

I liked this bit:



> 107. In October 1993, Cambridge implemented a
> cycle hire scheme but it was considered to
> be a failure. Within 24 hours, all 300 bicycles
> had been stolen, ending up in rivers, ditches or
> ...



The smaller London scheme they looked at, though hasn't had major problems with theft.

Also, they pointed out that although theft was initially a problem in Paris it has decreased over time, possibly because a lot of theft was a result of users unfamiliar with the scheme not docking the bikes properly.


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## FunkyUK (Feb 3, 2010)

They've just started installing the docking bays in the City - one on Wood Street, one by the Museum of London


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## toblerone3 (Feb 3, 2010)

Oooh This is exciting I think.


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## ddraig (Feb 3, 2010)

i actually saw someone on the OYbikes for the first time here in Cardiff the other week! had to stop and ask them and they seemed happy enough with them, two young tourists


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## quimcunx (Jul 9, 2010)

Near my work there are now docking stations for the bikes and a pillar with a map and instructions and tarriffs.  

I think the tarriffs are a bit of a pisstake, frankly.  £1 for half an hour is fine but £35 for between 3 and 6 hours....

Also one of the instructions suggests there is no way to lock the bike except in a docking station.  Would that be right?


e2a:  it was free for half hour (after daily access) actually, and maybe £1 for an hour...


----------



## richl (Jul 9, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> Also one of the instructions suggests there is no way to lock the bike except in a docking station.  Would that be right?



Yeah. The Paris ones come with a built-in lock, but it was decided early on with the London ones that this was more trouble than it was worth.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 9, 2010)

Bit shit and pointless then, as far as I'm concerned.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 9, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I think the tarriffs are a bit of a pisstake, frankly.  £1 for half an hour is fine but £35 for between 3 and 6 hours....



I think the idea is to stop people taking the bikes for any longer than they are actually using them. Apparently £1 will get you as many half hours you like during a day.

So you can take a bike, cycle for 25mins, dock it, go to some shops for half an hour, cycle for 20 mins, dock it, have lunch for an hour and a half, cycle for 20 mins, dock it and that will all cost you £1.

Whereas if you took the bike for three and a bit hours and didn't dock it while you were at the shops or having lunch it would cost you £35 or whatever. I imagine the idea is to keep as many bikes available as possible at any time, rather than having them sitting unused locked up outside cafes and stuff. The inability to lock them goes along with this I suppose.

Of course, it does depend on there being enough docking stations that there is always one pretty close to where you're going.

Seems to work OK in Paris.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 9, 2010)

Hm.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 9, 2010)

Is there a map of the docking stations somewhere. *Goes to look on TfL website*


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## toblerone3 (Jul 9, 2010)

No maps of the docking stations as far as I can see. Just a map of the general hire area.


----------



## Black Halo (Jul 9, 2010)

teuchter said:


> So you can take a bike, cycle for 25mins, dock it, go to some shops for half an hour, cycle for 20 mins, dock it, have lunch for an hour and a half, cycle for 20 mins, dock it and that will all cost you £1.



This will cost you £0 (assuming you have paid the £45 for the year).

From here:
The first 30 minutes of *each* journey are free.



toblerone3 said:


> No maps of the docking stations as far as I can see. Just a map of the general hire area.


At Camden Green fair (and maybe at the Urban Green Fair in Brickwell Park later in the year) they had a info stand and were handing out a map which had a load of stands marked on it but it did say it was not all of them but it had a huge amount. Surprised it isn't online actually. The planned locations are easy to find they are marked by a series of black squares on the pavement (e.g. beside Tesco in Vauxhall/Kennington and near the old Lilian baylis school )

EDIT:
Actually locations:
Spreadsheet - https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AlyaxVAWYL6GdE1FamJjT2NrbldORXlMcU43LXI2cFE&hl=en#gid=0
Small map embedded in this page - http://cyclehireapp.com/locations.html

RE-EDIT:
Just the map on a page - http://cyclehireapp.com/map.html


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 9, 2010)

It's still so frustrating they couldn't incorporate this into Oyster. Really, very.


----------



## joustmaster (Jul 9, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> It's still so frustrating they couldn't incorporate this into Oyster. Really, very.



it does strike me as massive balls up. i can't see why it would be so difficult either.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2010)

joustmaster said:


> it does strike me as massive balls up. i can't see why it would be so difficult either.


It's to do with getting money out of you if you don't return the bike. How do you charge someone's Oyster £300 (or whatever it is) without their permission? How do you know that the Oyster's owner is actually holding the card? (Oyster has no PIN)


----------



## Cobbles (Jul 9, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> I think the tarriffs are a bit of a pisstake, frankly.  £1 for half an hour is fine but £35 for between 3 and 6 hours....



Cheaper to hire a group A car or use taxis.

No contest................


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2010)

The whole point is that they're for short journeys - you wouldn't hire one for 5 hours while you were shopping - you'd hire one for 15 minutes there, dock it, then another one 15 minutes back.


----------



## joustmaster (Jul 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> It's to do with getting money out of you if you don't return the bike. How do you charge someone's Oyster £300 (or whatever it is) without their permission? How do you know that the Oyster's owner is actually holding the card? (Oyster has no PIN)



i guess that makes sense. my oyster is registered with my bank card. Couldn't they just limit it to people who do that?


----------



## Cobbles (Jul 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> The whole point is that they're for short journeys - you wouldn't hire one for 5 hours while you were shopping - you'd hire one for 15 minutes there, dock it, then another one 15 minutes back.



That's what taxis are for (no need to hunt around fruitlessly for a dock near where you want to start from/end up either)!

NB - their carrying capacity is a bit better than a bicycle as well.


----------



## joustmaster (Jul 9, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> That's what taxis are for (no need to hunt around fruitlessly for a dock near where you want to start from/end up either)!
> 
> NB - their carrying capacity is a bit better than a bicycle as well.



£


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> That's what taxis are for (no need to hunt around fruitlessly for a dock near where you want to start from/end up either)!
> 
> NB - their carrying capacity is a bit better than a bicycle as well.


Taken a taxi in london recently? You'd still be sitting in traffic while I'd be parking my bike at the other end. The docks are 300m apart. If you can't walk 150m, then I'm very sorry for you


----------



## Cobbles (Jul 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Taken a taxi in london recently? You'd still be sitting in traffic while I'd be parking my bike at the other end. The docks are 300m apart. If you can't walk 150m, then I'm very sorry for you



Who's shelling out to inflict yet another piece of pointless nonsense every 300M across London's pavements?

Anyway, why would I want to bother dragging 6 bags of Waitrose's finest (plus a couple of wine carriers) that far?

So, they're useless for shopping.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 9, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> That's what taxis are for (no need to hunt around fruitlessly for a dock near where you want to start from/end up either)!
> 
> NB - their carrying capacity is a bit better than a bicycle as well.





Crispy said:


> Taken a taxi in london recently? You'd still be sitting in traffic while I'd be parking my bike at the other end. The docks are 300m apart. If you can't walk 150m, then I'm very sorry for you



Yes for all your cynicism Cobbles cycles in central London will be quicker, cheaper, less polluting and safer than taking a taxi.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 9, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> Who's shelling out to inflict yet another piece of pointless nonsense every 300M across London's pavements?
> 
> Anyway, why would I want to bother dragging 6 bags of Waitrose's finest (plus a couple of wine carriers) that far?
> 
> So, they're useless for shopping.


So are taxis, unless you're rich.


----------



## Black Halo (Jul 9, 2010)

Crispy said:


> you wouldn't hire one for 5 hours


Also from reports I have heard from Dublin (similar bikes) you would have to be a proper Sadomasochist to cycle it for any length of time, heavy as fook apparently.


----------



## snowy_again (Jul 9, 2010)

I borrowed one last week. They are top heavy, but the cockpit is relatively well designed, even if the turning circle is quite large. 

They'll be hard to trash, as there's actually not much on them to trash, although they're so heavy I wouldn't want someone to crash into me on one. The gearing's sensible, but as has been pointed out above, they're not for long or hilly journeys. The half hour thing makes perfect sense.  

The rear lights are placed low down on the stays, and that's about as far as I can get to criticising it.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 9, 2010)

I was reading up about this the other day, and for me, the biggest deterrent to using this would be the lack of guarantee of being able to get hold of another bike to get back to where I started.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 9, 2010)

RubyToogood said:


> I was reading up about this the other day, and for me, the biggest deterrent to using this would be the lack of guarantee of being able to get hold of another bike to get back to where I started.



Suck it and see.


----------



## RubyToogood (Jul 9, 2010)

That's the point, I wouldn't want to suck it and see. If I'm going to make a journey I need to be sure I can get back again.

Although actually when I think about it I just wouldn't use the scheme anyway as I always go into zone 1 by motorbike, so I can't see any advantage in swapping to bicycle for the last bit.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 13, 2010)

toblerone3 said:


> Is there a map of the docking stations somewhere. *Goes to look on TfL website*




I've found an unofficial map of the docking stations 

http://bbarker.co.uk/cycleHire/


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

There's not a single docking station in Shepherds Bush, and the furthest west location is Kensington Olympia  

I might have actually considered hiring one to get back home from late nights in the west end but I honestly don't think I'll bother seeing as I wouldn't be able to 'dock' it anywhere when I got back, and it's still more expensive than getting on a bus.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 13, 2010)

It'll be fascinating to look at the patterns of use.

And also to see if it acts as a stepping stone to get more people to buy and use their own  bikes.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 13, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's not a single docking station in Shepherds Bush, and the furthest west location is Kensington Olympia
> 
> I might have actually considered hiring one to get back home from late nights in the west end but I honestly don't think I'll bother seeing as I wouldn't be able to 'dock' it anywhere when I got back, and it's still more expensive than getting on a bus.




Well that's just the limit of the scheme at the moment. Its not designed for typical bike commuters either. It doesn't cover Brixton, Hackney, Camden, Camberwell or Clapham either! 

Its purely for people moving within the central area of London.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

It seems to me that unless you're someone who goes to central London for any length of time, and then need to move around from place to place, in a short space of time, this would probably be ideal. However, if you live an easy cycle ride away in surrounding zone 2 areas and may want to pop to central London and back on a bike - they haven't considered you.


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## Crispy (Jul 13, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> It seems to me that unless you're someone who goes to central London for any length of time, and then need to move around from place to place, in a short space of time, this would probably be ideal. However, if you live an easy cycle ride away in surrounding zone 2 areas and may want to pop to central London and back on a bike - they haven't considered you.


Nor should they, IMO - commuting would shove all the zone 2 bikes into the center in the morning (leaving racks empty, or making the resupply vans shuttle back and forth), and then back out again in the evening, leaving the center empty.

This scheme is intended (in part) to replace the last leg of your public transport journey - ie. the last bus or tube that you'd catch after getting off a mainline train. It's also for making quick cross-center trips during a working/shopping/out-and-about day.


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## Black Halo (Jul 13, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> It seems to me that unless you're someone who goes to central London for any length of time, and then need to move around from place to place, in a short space of time, this would probably be ideal.


As Crispy has noted that is the point of the scheme. Want to commute by bike? Get your company to sign up for the cycle-to-work scheme.


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## London_Calling (Jul 13, 2010)

Indeed.

skyscraper101 - it's not a substitute for bike ownership. The scheme serves entirely different purposes.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

It seems that the Paris velo network is a lot more expansive though. Why can't it be the same in London? For example, you can get a velo in the middle of Paris say (eg. Paris Town Hall) and ride it out as far west as Boulogne - Pont de Saint-Cloud - a good 10km away. Yet if I wanted to pick up a bike at a similarly central London location, eg. Big Ben - the furthest west I could go is Olympia, a mere 5km away.

Why can't London have a bigger network like Paris?


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## Crispy (Jul 13, 2010)

The Paris network has been expanded significantly since it started - twice the bikes and dock sites. But even at the beginning, it was larger - 750 compared to 400 docking sites in Paris vs. London. Money and good old British aversion to change are to blame IMO.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

I don't like the way that they have 'Barclays' plastered all over the back either.


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## Kanda (Jul 13, 2010)

Who would be your prefered sponsor??


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

Crispy said:


> The Paris network has been expanded significantly since it started - twice the bikes and dock sites. But even at the beginning, it was larger - 750 compared to 400 docking sites in Paris vs. London. Money and good old British aversion to change are to blame IMO.



That's the odd thing isn't it. Paris seem to manage more sites and without turning each bike into an advertising board for a major bank on the back. So much for Boris's claim that we'll have the "Rolls-Royce of bicycles" on London's streets. The Paris ones look relatively cooler in comparison.


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## snowy_again (Jul 13, 2010)

Wouldn't coolness lead to more theft? I imagine the ugliest bike possible is a theft deterrent.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Who would be your prefered sponsor??



Preferably nobody, like in Paris.

But if absolutely have to have a sponsor seeing as Johnson has created such a massive black hole in the transport budget - then it could at least be something a lot cooler than a bank like Barclays.


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## Crispy (Jul 13, 2010)

The Paris scheme is sponsored by the advertising giant JCDeceaux, who take all the profit from the advertising hoardings on the docking stations.


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## teuchter (Jul 13, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Nor should they, IMO - commuting would shove all the zone 2 bikes into the center in the morning (leaving racks empty, or making the resupply vans shuttle back and forth), and then back out again in the evening, leaving the center empty.
> 
> This scheme is intended (in part) to replace the last leg of your public transport journey - ie. the last bus or tube that you'd catch after getting off a mainline train. It's also for making quick cross-center trips during a working/shopping/out-and-about day.



I don't see that there's necessarily a problem with more bikes being in the centre during the day - after all, that's when most people wanting bikes will be in the centre too.

In any case, if people use them to get from mainline rail stations to work, won't the same problem apply (loads of bikes outside stations overnight, and then a shortage in the day)?

I reckon that in any case, people wanting to regularly commute from Z2 or further out would get their own bike on account of the clunky design of the velib ones.

Either way - I'll be pleased if the scheme does eventually extend to Brixton and other places... I can see it being pretty useful for me if it does.


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## teuchter (Jul 13, 2010)

The London docking stations are nicer than the Paris ones I reckon.


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## London_Calling (Jul 13, 2010)

I detest the advertising. Mind you, if I had my way I'd ban it from bus shelters, those god awful billboards, black cabs, busses and, actually, pretty much everywhere. If they want to impress with their product, use the money saved from advertising and reduce prices. Thank you. Merry Christmas.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

I don't mind so much having sponsorship on the docking facilities like Paris but why should we all be turned into mobile advertising boards for Barclays bank while peddling round central London? They look _really_ crap IMHO.


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## London_Calling (Jul 13, 2010)

They look like they might come off easily enough . . .


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 13, 2010)

. . .an ad buster target if ever I saw one


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## ddraig (Jul 13, 2010)

the Oy bikes in Cardiff have ads on them as well
only noticed ones from the council about the bikes themselves on them so far!


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## flash (Jul 13, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Preferably nobody, like in Paris.
> 
> But if absolutely have to have a sponsor seeing as Johnson has created such a massive black hole in the transport budget - then it could at least be something a lot cooler than a bank like Barclays.



Mmmm like a bank that has to get taxpayers to bail it out (RBS or Lloyds)? Odds on Barclays will write the £25 million off as a business expense to lower their tax bill or something like that, whilst getting loads of free advertising. 

Look forward to them standing by it though when the first person looks the wrong way and goes straight through a buses windscreen, with an awkward photo ending up on the front page of the Standard. Odds on at least a couple of serious hospital admissions within August especially with the Super Highways being unveiled shortly.


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## Monkeygrinder's Organ (Jul 13, 2010)

flash said:


> Mmmm like a bank that has to get taxpayers to bail it out (RBS or Lloyds)? Odds on Barclays will write the £25 million off as a business expense to lower their tax bill or something like that, whilst getting loads of free advertising.
> 
> Look forward to them standing by it though when the first person looks the wrong way and goes straight through a buses windscreen, with an awkward photo ending up on the front page of the Standard. Odds on at least a couple of serious hospital admissions within August especially with the Super Highways being unveiled shortly.



For all his many faults, I think Boris will be able to brush that off pretty easily when it (inevitably as you say) happens.


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## teuchter (Jul 13, 2010)

Have just been reading in the Lambeth propaganda circular about the "Barclays cycle superhighway". I can just about cope with advertising being stuck onto the bikes themselves but not when it is attached to nouns


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## flash (Jul 13, 2010)

Monkeygrinder's Organ said:


> For all his many faults, I think Boris will be able to brush that off pretty easily when it (inevitably as you say) happens.



It will happen - it hate to be a pessimist but it's inevitable - throwing potentially new cyclists in to the middle of zone 1 without a crash helmet - like that's not going to cause problems. Anyone want to take a spread on the number of first month casualties? I think there is going to be some pretty negative media on this one (the amount of schemes that have been shelved to effectively fund this is interesting, certain pots of money are suddenly empty apparently.....). Does have a touch of a vanity project about it, the fact that he tried to get a dock in his road in Islington (that was refused planning permission) says it all. Hope it goes well for him though.


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## flash (Jul 13, 2010)

teuchter said:


> Have just been reading in the Lambeth propaganda circular about the "Barclays cycle superhighway". I can just about cope with advertising being stuck onto the bikes themselves but not when it is attached to nouns



Well they couldn't stick it on the carriageway or on any of the signs without getting planning permission so they had to stick it somewhere (as it's effectively advertising - I've had to get planning permission for moving a public notice board before given the size of the posters on it - planning laws are beyond belief)


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## Open Sauce (Jul 13, 2010)

RubyToogood said:


> I was reading up about this the other day, and for me, the biggest deterrent to using this would be the lack of guarantee of being able to get hold of another bike to get back to where I started.



Mine would be the lack of guarantee of an empty bay to park it - but we shall see.


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## Crispy (Jul 13, 2010)

Bikes will outnumber docks by 2:1


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## Open Sauce (Jul 13, 2010)

flash said:


> It will happen - it hate to be a pessimist but it's inevitable - throwing potentially new cyclists in to the middle of zone 1 without a crash helmet - like that's not going to cause problems. Anyone want to take a spread on the number of first month casualties? I think there is going to be some pretty negative media on this one (*the amount of schemes that have been shelved to effectively fund this is interesting, certain pots of money are suddenly empty apparently..*...)



Links / details? Sorry, but you do sound like a typical negative person.




> Does have a touch of a vanity project about it, the fact that he tried to get a dock in his road in Islington (that was refused planning permission) says it all. Hope it goes well for him though.



More likely to prevent being called a hypocrite when encouraging others to accept them in their street


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## Miss-Shelf (Jul 14, 2010)

I'd love the scheme to replace the first bit of a comute - say the cycle down Tulse Hill (when the buses go by full ) to the tube or the bus down through Victoria Park to the tube 

these parts of the commute can be slow and frustrating to all concerned and only 5 mins by bike compared to 25 potentially waiting for and getting the bus


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Bikes will outnumber docks by 2:1



Do you mean the other way around?


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2010)

Personally I am looking forward to the first youtube films of people doing stunts on the bikes.


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## snowy_again (Jul 14, 2010)

teuchter said:


> Personally I am looking forward to the first youtube films of people doing stunts on the bikes.



Christ, I tried when I had one on loan. You can stand on 'em, Superman style, but they're hardly things that will wheely / endo / turn in a circle that's not 15 foot wide. 

They even reduced the size of the front basket to stop you putting people in them.


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> Christ, I tried when I had one on loan. You can stand on 'em, Superman style, but they're hardly things that will wheely / endo / turn in a circle that's not 15 foot wide.
> 
> They even reduced the size of the front basket to stop you putting people in them.



Someone will manage to do stunts on them, and they will put it on youtube. It's simply nature's way.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 14, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> Christ, I tried when I had one on loan. You can stand on 'em, Superman style, but they're hardly things that will wheely / endo / turn in a circle that's not 15 foot wide.
> 
> They even reduced the size of the front basket to stop you putting people in them.



In your opinion from the test bike, how easy would you say it would be to smash off the barclays sign? What was it made of, and how was it attached?


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## teuchter (Jul 14, 2010)




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## Cobbles (Jul 14, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> In your opinion from the test bike, how easy would you say it would be to smash off the barclays sign? What was it made of, and how was it attached?



More to the point, how much will be deducted from your credit card for repairs should you indulde in such a pitiful act of vandalism.


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## JWH (Jul 14, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> In your opinion from the test bike, how easy would you say it would be to smash off the barclays sign? What was it made of, and how was it attached?



No sponsorship = no bikes for everyone else. Fuck off and smash up an actual Barclay's.


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## rover07 (Jul 14, 2010)

So 400 people will be able to cycle the last mile to work...

How many people work in central London!


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 14, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> More to the point, how much will be deducted from your credit card for repairs should you indulde in such a pitiful act of vandalism.



None if you don't actually hire it.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 14, 2010)

JWH said:


> No sponsorship = no bikes for everyone else. Fuck off and smash up an actual Barclay's.



I didn't say I was actually gonna smash one off. I probably won't even bother registering on the system anyway seeing as the bike system doesn't even extend to the far and distant land of Shepherds Bush.

I was just interested to find out how easy it would be for a few anti capitalist types to come along and smash off the 'Barclays' advertising. I gather it would be pretty easy to just respray it whilst it's sat in the dock or something no?

How would TFL know who caused the damage anyway? Surely they can't charge it back the last person who hired it. What's to stop anyone from just coming up to bikes in the docks and just vandalising them after they've been returned safely?

Who accounts for damages? And how do they know if it has been caused by the last user, or someone after. I'm genuinely interested.


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## Cobbles (Jul 14, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> I didn't say I was actually gonna smash one off. I probably won't even bother registering on the system anyway seeing as the bike system doesn't even extend to the far and distant land of Shepherds Bush.
> 
> I was just interested to find out how easy it would be for a few anti capitalist types to come along and smash off the 'Barclays' advertising. I gather it would be pretty easy to just respray it whilst it's sat in the dock or something no?
> 
> ...



Splendid - if a load of peurile knobheads continually vandalise the bikes then the scheme'll soon fold and the trash will be removed from pavements..............


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 14, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> Splendid - if a load of peurile knobheads continually vandalise the bikes then the scheme'll soon fold and the trash will be removed from pavements..............



Maybe they should have thought of that before plastering a big corporate banking giant's logo on the back of each bike. Why not do what the French did and have all your sponsors on the docking station area, rather than turning each person hiring a bike into a mobile advert. Just a thought.


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## snowy_again (Jul 14, 2010)

Woop! Smash the System - X! 

Nope, no smashing required. It's a simple laminate on the rear rack and wheel / chain guard thing. 

And yes, people with better skillz than me will use them for tricks. However the general design and fork crown (which only permits you to turn to a particular degree) seems to have minimised opportunities for most fun things.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 14, 2010)

That's interesting. The bikes look ok except for the Barclays sign. I bet they become the first thing to get routinely defaced.


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## Dovydaitis (Jul 15, 2010)

I wouldn't mind having a go when I'm next in London


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## teuchter (Jul 15, 2010)

rover07 said:


> So 400 people will be able to cycle the last mile to work...
> 
> How many people work in central London!



400 docking sites. Not 400 bikes.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 15, 2010)

So can anyone answer how TFL will be deciding who is responsible for damage if you return a bike in a good condition, and then someone comes along and vandalises it?

Seems a bit unfair to charge it back to the last user. But how could it be proved either way? Who's going to be monitoring these things, and how regularly?


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## JWH (Jul 15, 2010)

You'll be charged for all damage. You specifically.


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## snowy_again (Jul 15, 2010)

What makes you say that JWH?

Close up photos of the bikes:

http://www.bicycleimages.com/main/gallery.php?gid=77&page_num=2&sort_by=date&sort_order=ascending


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## Placid Casual27 (Jul 15, 2010)

I sat on one today. They are heavy but feel good. High handlebars mean you sit upright. The inbuilt lights are wicked. 3 gears. They look alright and I really hope it works

6000 bikes, 400 docking stations every 300-400 metres

I have a leaflet w docking stations on it, pm me if you want one


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## JWH (Jul 16, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> What makes you say that JWH?



I'm teasing skyscraper101 who is apparently obsessed with the topic of damage to these bikes and who will pay for it, despite saying he's got no intention of using them.


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## teuchter (Jul 16, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> What makes you say that JWH?
> 
> Close up photos of the bikes:
> 
> http://www.bicycleimages.com/main/gallery.php?gid=77&page_num=2&sort_by=date&sort_order=ascending



There's something really, really wrong about the way the LT roundel and the Barclays logo are combined together. Also the way the blue used for the bike scheme seems to have kind of co-opted the Barclays blue. I don't like it at all. The LT roundel and associated typefaces and so on are kind of sacred and stand for one of the world's greatest public tranport systems. It shouldn't be compromised like this. Would I be right to say it's unprecedented?


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## London_Calling (Jul 16, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> So can anyone answer how TFL will be deciding who is responsible for damage if you return a bike in a good condition, and then someone comes along and vandalises it?
> 
> Seems a bit unfair to charge it back to the last user. But how could it be proved either way? Who's going to be monitoring these things, and how regularly?



No one. Think of it like a supermarket trolley with a £1 deposit slot. You're really having trouble with this whole concept . . . . 


More generally, I suppose radicals could spray over the Barclays logo in a pale blue, or otherwise deface it without ripping the whole thing off. Entire racks of them, late at night, even.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 16, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> No one. Think of it like a supermarket trolley with a £1 deposit slot. You're really having trouble with this whole concept . . . .
> 
> 
> More generally, I suppose radicals could spray over the Barclays logo in a pale blue, or otherwise deface it without ripping the whole thing off. Entire racks of them, late at night, even.



Yes but supermarket trolleys don't have registered users on a big database where they can find a defaced/damaged bike and then track it back to the last user.

I'm presuming that these bike docking stations do not have 24-7 attendees. So if you were to return a damaged bike, the only way for them to pay for repair would be to track it back to the last person who hired it.

BUT. If someone comes along to a docking station, damages a bike, and then walks off. How do they know it was not caused by the previous user?


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## toblerone3 (Jul 16, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes but supermarket trolleys don't have registered users on a big database where they can find a defaced/damaged bike and then track it back to the last user.
> 
> I'm presuming that these bike docking stations do not have 24-7 attendees. So if you were to return a damaged bike, the only way for them to pay for repair would be to track it back to the last person who hired it.
> 
> BUT. If someone comes along to a docking station, damages a bike, and then walks off. How do they know it was not caused by the previous user?



If somebody vandalises a phone box does the last person who made a call from that phone box get charged?


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 16, 2010)

toblerone3 said:


> If somebody vandalises a phone box does the last person who made a call from that phone box get charged?



No, not as far as I know. But the point of the bike deposit thing is that people who return damaged bikes get charged for the damage  because they can track it back to the last user. What I want to know is how can they know for sure that a bike was damaged by the last user or just a random person in the street.

By the way, for the record, I'm not into damaging these things. I actually want the system to work. And despite my dislike of having a banking giant turn these into mobile adverts for themselves - I'm not advocating wrecking these bikes and causing it to fail.

However, I'm thinking ahead and I can just see a situation occurring (eg. May 1st protests or something) where obvious targets such as bank logos are fair game for getting vandalised. A rack of bikes with plastic 'Barclays' logos plastered on the back seems too obvious for that not to happen. So my genuine question is how would damage to these bikes be accounted for if it was carried out by some random ne'er do good while they were parked up?


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## quimcunx (Jul 16, 2010)

teuchter said:


> There's something really, really wrong about the way the LT roundel and the Barclays logo are combined together. Also the way the blue used for the bike scheme seems to have kind of co-opted the Barclays blue. I don't like it at all. The LT roundel and associated typefaces and so on are kind of sacred and stand for one of the world's greatest public tranport systems. It shouldn't be compromised like this. Would I be right to say it's unprecedented?



Maybe it's just coincidence that their designers came up with something that looks like the LU logo.  

yesyes.

No bikes at my docking station yet.


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## beeboo (Jul 17, 2010)

so much negativity!

I for one am hugely excited about the bikes and think they're going to be really useful.


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## Pat24 (Jul 17, 2010)

beeboo said:


> so much negativity!
> 
> I for one am hugely excited about the bikes and think they're going to be really useful.


 
Me too! I can't wait!


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## Black Halo (Jul 19, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> No bikes at my docking station yet.


Doesn't start till the 30th of this month so assume the bikes won't appear till late the 29th?


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## ferrelhadley (Jul 19, 2010)

They were being delivered to one of the parking thingamy bobs just south of the Tate Modern this evening. 

Ugly ugly ugly fuckers. Look real heavy too. But its a great idea, I can see myself using them from time to time in the coming years.


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## Mr T (Jul 19, 2010)

Front page of the standard today:

"Delay puts spoke in Boris Johnson's London bike hire scheme"
http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/stand...-in-boris-johnsons-london-bike-hire-scheme.do

Sounds like a bit of a cock-up on Serco's part


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## joustmaster (Jul 22, 2010)

a full set of bikes out side my work near southwark tube this morning.


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## Crispy (Jul 22, 2010)

Ok, so if anyone wants to be able to use this at the start (ie. before they've fixed their cockups and got all the bikes and docks sorted), you should register at http://www.tfl.gov.uk/roadusers/cycling/12444.aspx from 6pm on friday 23rd (tomorrow)


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## Motown_ben (Jul 23, 2010)

Iv just signed up for this, Im quite excited about it, im sure me and my g/f will use it occasionally around town. Dunno what the bikes look like though, anyone got any photos ?


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## joustmaster (Jul 23, 2010)

it wont let me sign up. keeps say there is an error and i should try later.
Ihave tried hitting the side of the monitor but this hasn't really helped


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## joustmaster (Jul 23, 2010)

wobbly dp


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## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

I have signed up as a member.

You have to pay a one-off £3 for the "key" that you use to release the bikes.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

It doesn't take American Express cards


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## Crispy (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> It doesn't take American Express cards


 
who does these days?


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

Crispy said:


> who does these days?



Everyone else on TFL for one.


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## salem (Jul 23, 2010)

I've signed up, process was easy enough apart from the stupid password requirements (8+ characters, with at least one capital letter, one lowercase letter and a number). I'm sure no one cares that much.

I'm a little confused by the 'access fee'. Is this is separate to the actual hire fee? I've paid for the £1 day fee but there is a £45 yearly option and I presume that doesn't give all you can eat access 

I've had a go on these bikes before and they are nice enough. They seem totally over engineered when compared with the ones in Barcelona and I have a feeling that they are going to be more prone to failure.

The one thing that concerns me a little is getting blamed for damage after it gets returned to the stand.

Overall it's a good thing though and I'm looking forward to using it. A real shame it couldn't be integrated into the oystercard system though. For the price of the system you'd think that would be possible.


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## Crispy (Jul 23, 2010)

well, I've signed up for a key, will be interesting to see how it all works out.

basically, you get charged your fee if the previous period has run out. So the £1 plan gets charged to your account when you unlock the bike. Any 30 min rides in the next 24h are free. Longer rides attract charges. You don't pay anything else until you next unlock a bike on another day, at which point you get charged £1 and get another 24h period

The 7-day plan means that you could undock the bike on monday, then all 30 minute rides that week are free. The yearly plan makes all 30-min rides all year free.


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## kyser_soze (Jul 23, 2010)

Load of base stations being installed on Kensginton Church street this morning...


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## Pat24 (Jul 23, 2010)

I've signed up for a 24 access membership and got two keys (one for Mr Pat24) - I'll have a go as soon as I get them and if i think i'll be using it loads I will go for the full year membership.


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## DJWrongspeed (Jul 23, 2010)

Velo Charges

it looks pricey for anything over 90mins.  Perhaps that's the intention.  Definitely no good if you're a tourist and want one for a whole day.

A load of docking stations just installed this morning by LSE.


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## Crispy (Jul 23, 2010)

if you're a tourist, you won't be leaving the central zone, so you just dock at your location and get a new one when you move on. no worries


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

I signed up to it to see how simple it all was and on the off-chance I may need to use it in central London. If they extended it further out of the centre like Paris seem to have managed to do, then I may have even gone for a year's access. Anyway...

I ended up having to use Mastercard in the end. Very annoying given that for every other means of transport I can use Amex. Also very annoying is the fact it's not integrated in any way with your TFL account through Oyster, so you have to create a new account, with a new complicated upper case, lower case, containing one number must-be-over-8-characters-long password 

I still can't see any answer the question as to if people will get charged if someone comes along and trashes the bikes after you've hired and returned one to the docking station. This seems to be a fundamental flaw to the system? How do they prove whodunit?


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## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> I still can't see any answer the question as to if people will get charged if someone comes along and trashes the bikes after you've hired and returned one to the docking station. This seems to be a fundamental flaw to the system? How do they prove whodunit?


 


> Non-Return Charge and Damage Charge
> 
> If a Cycle is lost or stolen during the Period of Use, we may charge you the sum of £300 for each Cycle that is lost or stolen within this period ("Non-Return Charge").
> If a Cycle is damaged during the Period of Use, then depending on the extent of the damage to the Cycle, we may charge you a sum up to the maximum sum of £300 for each Cycle that is damaged within this period ("Damage Charge").
> ...



They would have to prove that the damage occurred during the time you were using the bike. Given that the bikes are stored in the open I think it would be pretty hard to make a case against you that you had caused any damage, unless they had specific evidence. 

I reckon the cost of vandalism is factored into the cost of the scheme. It'll probably be pretty rare that they'd take the £300 off people except in cases of non-return.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

But what's to stop them charging you anyway, and then when you protest, they insist that YOU have to prove you didn't cause the damage in order to be refunded? It's still pretty ambiguous.


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## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> But what's to stop them charging you anyway, and then when you protest, they insist that YOU have to prove you didn't cause the damage in order to be refunded? It's still pretty ambiguous.


 
Because that's not how the law is supposed to operate, as far as I'm aware.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legal_burden_of_proof


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## Kanda (Jul 23, 2010)

teuchter said:


> They would have to prove that the damage occurred during the time you were using the bike. Given that the bikes are stored in the open I think it would be pretty hard to make a case against you that you had caused any damage, unless they had specific evidence.
> 
> I reckon the cost of vandalism is factored into the cost of the scheme. It'll probably be pretty rare that they'd take the £300 off people except in cases of non-return.


 
CCTV.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 23, 2010)

I was wondering about punctures . . . I'm not sure what though.

I suppose you just walk it to a docking station - assuming you know where the nearest one is - and just dock it. But then the next person comes along and undocks it without checking and . . .  I suppose they can re-dock and pick another . . . . maybe.


----------



## salem (Jul 23, 2010)

I agree that the damage issue is a little shortsited. I think legally it would be difficult for them to charge it and I'd be surprised if they took the money from your card without warning (would lead to lots of chargebacks which the credit card companies will have to deal with and kick up a fuss).

It won't put wanton vandals off as they don't need to hire the bikes to damage them. Wear and tear needs to be factored into the general cost of the scheme as that obviously can't fall on the back of the last person to hire which leaves what kind of damage? People hopping them off kerbs or doing stunts? Which I can't be a major factor.

So the only thing I can see it doing is to plant the seed in peoples mind that they might be liable depsite having no control over the bikes after return which is obviously a bad thing. They should be shouting from the rooftops that it's a worry free way of cycling.

I suppose if the stands all have CCTV then damage issue should be easier to prove/disprove but I'm surprised they are being so coy about how it works in practice as it seems to be an issue that lots of people are curious about (judging by their stand that the Camden Green Fair and various comments online)

The other thing I find interesting is that there is no provision for helmets which goes against everything that has been drummed into us over the years by cycling organisations. I understand that requiring helmets would make the system unworkable and broadly support the scheme (I generally don't bother with a helmet myself and find it interesting that very few people wear helmets on the continent either) but it'll make for interesting media when the inevitable happens (that + the bikes being very distinctive = perfect front page photo opp). Hopefully people will understand that it's just one of those things.

Also didn't realise that non-members could hire using a credit card. A very good idea, I wanted to use the Barcelona one before and was disapointed to learn that I couldn't.


----------



## salem (Jul 23, 2010)

I think there is a button to press when you return it which allows you to report a defect, in which case it'd get taken out of service until the van next comes around.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

Kanda said:


> CCTV.


 
In which case there would be specific evidence so as long as you hadn't caused any damage you'd have nothing to worry about.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

salem said:


> I think there is a button to press when you return it which allows you to report a defect, in which case it'd get taken out of service until the van next comes around.


 
There is, yes.


----------



## joustmaster (Jul 23, 2010)

well  now i can get further through the registration page, but when it gets to the card auth screen, it 404s.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

Kanda said:


> CCTV.


 


teuchter said:


> In which case there would be specific evidence so as long as you hadn't caused any damage you'd have nothing to worry about.



Yes but there aren't purposely installed CCTV cameras at all the stands.

The green button thing is a good idea but how then does that stop people hiring a bike, wrecking it, and then returning it with a push of the button saying it was 'broken' when they hired it. It still seems flawed.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes but there aren't purposely installed CCTV cameras at all the stands.
> 
> The green button thing is a good idea but how then does that stop people hiring a bike, wrecking it, and then returning it with a push of the button saying it was 'broken' when they hired it. It still seems flawed.


 
Would someone pay £1 for the pleasure of vandalising a bike? I think most vandals prefer to pursue their sport for free, and with less effort than hiring a bike, taking it somewhere, breaking it, and then returning it would entail.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

teuchter said:


> Would someone pay £1 for the pleasure of vandalising a bike? I think most vandals prefer to pursue their sport for free, and with less effort than hiring a bike, taking it somewhere, breaking it, and then returning it would entail.


 
But...

a) You don't need to hire a bike to wreck it in its docking station
b) I don't buy it that people wouldn't hire it with the best intentions, then act irresponsibly with it and return them damaged saying that they were broke when they got it. With way to prove otherwise, who cops the bill?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> But...
> 
> a) You don't need to hire a bike to wreck it in its docking station
> b) I don't buy it that people wouldn't hire it with the best intentions, then act irresponsibly with it and return them damaged saying that they were broke when they got it. With way to prove otherwise, who cops the bill?


 
The runners of the system. The regular usage tariffs probably won't cover all the repair/replacement costs and the service will run with a subsidy, just like all the other comparable schemes in Europe, and just like most public transport. Whether the amount of subsidy will be seen as good value remains to be seen.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 23, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Yes but there aren't purposely installed CCTV cameras at all the stands.


 
Do you know how much CCTV is in London already? They don't need to install anymore I would have thought.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 23, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Do you know how much CCTV is in London already? They don't need to install anymore I would have thought.



You'd have thought, but looking at very recent examples of how effective CCTV is in Oxford Street - one of the most CCTV covered streets in the world - I'd bet against it.

Recent thread

and

http://cyclistneedshelp.blogspot.com/


----------



## Mr T (Jul 23, 2010)

tfl are pretty hot at the moment on the recent crime and disorder act, which has a section basically required pubic sector orgs like tfl to assess the risk of crime in all their projects - which would probably have made cctv coverage a requirement for the docking station locations - and its not like there is a lack of it in central london anyway.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Local authorities are worried that that the Velohire scheme will cause an increase in accidents involving inexperienced hire cyclists in London how would you devise cycle training to help prevent this?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 23, 2010)

toblerone3 said:


> Local authorities are worried that that the Velohire scheme will cause an increase in accidents involving inexperienced hire cyclists in London how would you devise cycle training to help prevent this?


 
Get training, get free hire credits?


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 23, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Get training, get free hire credits?



Fantastic!


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 25, 2010)

Saw a couple of the new bikes in use yesterday, feels like it's really gonna happen at last.  I wonder whether the docking stations are in the right place. A lot of the planned stations were rejected by councils.  There are loads by the Imperial War museum but it that the right kind of place ?

I hope it kicks start a huge cycling take up really and not just from the hire scheme.  There are far too many buses in central London.  If the cycling numbers improve it would be great to see more road space for cyclists,  Oxford street for example.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 25, 2010)

DJWrongspeed said:


> I hope it kicks start a huge cycling take up really and not just from the hire scheme.  There are far too many buses in central London.  If the cycling numbers improve it would be great to see more road space for cyclists,  Oxford street for example.



I hope so too.


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 25, 2010)

The overall economics were hugely optimistic the last time I saw - might have been earlier in this thread or elsewhere.

Don't know how much Barclay's are paying to be involved but it'll need to be a fortune for this to make sense based on the earlier numbers.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 25, 2010)

But the amount of advertising they'll be getting out of it by plastering their logo on the back of each bike will probably more than cover the cost.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 25, 2010)

Strangely coincidental also that the system is sponsored by Barclays and whilst you can hire the bikes with a Visa or Mastercard (both offered on Barclaycard), you cannot do so on American Express. TFL had no answer for this when I spoke to them and pointed out that you can use Amex for everything else on TFL but not the 'Barclays' cycle hire.

It's bullshit, its just like the London Olympics making everyone pay on VISA because of sponsorship reasons.


----------



## strung out (Jul 26, 2010)

i always thought the reason most people don't take amex is because it's more expensive for the vendor to process amex payments, when relatively few people use it.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 26, 2010)

strung_out said:


> i always thought the reason most people don't take amex is because it's more expensive for the vendor to process amex payments, when relatively few people use it.


 
Bur seeing as the rest of TFL do at any tube/train station and to top up Oyster online etc, it seems far too coincidental that the 'Barclays' cycle hire is the only one that doesn't take it.


----------



## Black Halo (Jul 26, 2010)

To be fair regarding vandalism/breakages/costs etc when they launched this in Dublin it was expected that all the bikes would be trashed and thrown in the Liffey/canal within a week and it didn't happen and (as a ex-native) Dublin is a shithole sometimes compared to London. So I am being optimistic regarding how well the bikes/stands will be treated here.



Pat24 said:


> I've signed up for a 24 access membership and got two keys (one for Mr Pat24)


If you have 2 keys can they be used at the same time? i.e. get 2 keys, pay £45 and both people get annual access and you can hire at the same time?


----------



## Pat24 (Jul 26, 2010)

Black Halo said:


> If you have 2 keys can they be used at the same time? i.e. get 2 keys, pay £45 and both people get annual access and you can hire at the same time?



I don't think so, because I got two keys and got charged for two separate memberships.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 26, 2010)

Anyone know if there's a docking station near Waterloo station?

If so this could be great for me.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 26, 2010)

Black Halo said:


> To be fair regarding vandalism/breakages/costs etc when they launched this in Dublin it was expected that all the bikes would be trashed and thrown in the Liffey/canal within a week and it didn't happen...


 
Dublin's bikes didn't have a banking giant's logo emblazoned on the rear wheel iirc.


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 26, 2010)

FFS, the map of docking stations isn't even up and running yet


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 26, 2010)

There's an unofficial map here already.

http://bbarker.co.uk/cycleHire/

Bahnhof there seems to be a fair few around Waterloo


----------



## Crispy (Jul 26, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Waterloo Bahnhof


 
I see what you did there 


EDIT: Oh you edited


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 26, 2010)

Crispy said:


> I see what you did there
> 
> 
> EDIT: Oh you edited



Oh..yeh I saw too  thought better of it


----------



## temper_tantrum (Jul 26, 2010)

Oh, thanks Skyscraper 
What a moronic thing to do, not to have the map ready on the official site  How can I know if I'm interested in registering if I can't see where the sites will be?!


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 26, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> There's an unofficial map here already.
> 
> http://bbarker.co.uk/cycleHire/
> 
> Bahnhof there seems to be a fair few around Waterloo



Thanks, looking good.





And if you ever have a query about Taipei...


----------



## Pat24 (Jul 26, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Anyone know if there's a docking station near Waterloo station?
> 
> If so this could be great for me.


 
I think the nearest one is by Lambeth North tube st. Hopefully there is another one closer to Waterloo than that one.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2010)

Seen a docking station close to where I work, no bikes (maybe they've all been taken?!). The map only showed 1 other station and this is in central london. If london were more bike friendly I could see this taking off but I don't think it will.


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## temper_tantrum (Jul 26, 2010)

It's a shame that there aren't any docking stations at Waterloo or London Bridge stations, I woulda thought these would be ideal for people who commute into town from further out - it could divert substantial traffic off the tubes ...


----------



## Giles (Jul 26, 2010)

Why do some people think that there will be very high levels of vandalism of these bikes?

I mean, yes, a minority of people are vandals, but still: thousands of people park their cars (which are much more vandalisable than push-bikes) all over London, and although there are break-ins and damage, its not at mad levels, is it? 

Maybe initially the novelty factor will cause some kids to mess about with the new hire bikes, but after a while they will just be "part of the furniture" and not subject to vandalism. 

Even the Barclays logo thing isn't a big deal to most people. There are hundreds of Barclays branches all over London, do they get graffitied, windows smashed, etc all the time? 

No......

Giles..


----------



## ddraig (Jul 26, 2010)

would you walk around in a barclays jacket?
if so you just don't get it do you


----------



## Giles (Jul 26, 2010)

People walk around with shopping bags with brand names of big companies on them, travel in buses, tubes and taxis with adverts plastered all over them, inside and out. Mostlyl they don't seem to be overcome with an overwhelming urge to rip down or deface the adverts.

So why on these bikes?

And are Barclays considered somehow particularly "bad" to most people? I remember that they WERE many years ago due to their apartheid South Africa connections, but now?

Giles..


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 26, 2010)

Well in what way are they connected to bikes and transport?. it just seems a bit cynical - no purpose besides branding.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 26, 2010)

Giles said:


> Why do some people think that there will be very high levels of vandalism of these bikes?
> 
> I mean, yes, a minority of people are vandals, but still: thousands of people park their cars (which are much more vandalisable than push-bikes) all over London, and although there are break-ins and damage, its not at mad levels, is it?
> 
> ...



The difference with cars is that they're not a public service sponsored by a banking giant which has insisted on turning everyone into a mobile advertising service.

People don't regularly smash up banks in the high street true, but remember the G20 riots last year? Banks within the riot zone were fair game and got targeted for vandalism despite the seriousness of the crime and the amount of police in the area. I don't think it impossible to imagine that a few half arsed people will target the plastic barclays logo on the bikes knowing that the likelihood of being caught is a lot less and the consequences of being caught are less serious. All it would take is a facebook campaign and enough willingness to stick it to the banks by smashing off their logo.

At the very least I expect people to start adbusting them within weeks of the scheme coming into effect. It'd be very easy for a flyering crew to make their own fleet of mobile bike ads for a club night or whatever.


----------



## Black Halo (Jul 27, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Dublin's bikes didn't have a banking giant's logo emblazoned on the rear wheel iirc.


Are you trying to suggest that mindless vandalism is actually driven by a deep-rooted anti-commercialism? Or are you telling us that you plan on trashing as many bikes as you can find in retaliation for TfL's need to get a private firm to sponsor the scheme? Mindless vandalism is just that mindless, it has no ulterior motive other than boredom (possibly). From my experience Dublin is worse for that kind of damage, I'm unsure what you and your "anarchist" friends get up to or how much damage* you will be able to inflict but keep us updated please.

*I don't think ad-busting is mindless vandalism but actually funny and making a point but you seem to be suggesting smashing up the bikes purely because they have Barclay's logos (or that someone will)



Pat24 said:


> I don't think so, because I got two keys and got charged for two separate memberships.


Cool, thanks.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2010)

I am now in posession of a key.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 27, 2010)

Black Halo said:


> Are you trying to suggest that mindless vandalism is actually driven by a deep-rooted anti-commercialism? Or are you telling us that you plan on trashing as many bikes as you can find in retaliation for TfL's need to get a private firm to sponsor the scheme?



Neither. Actually I don't think there will be much in the way of mindless vandalism of the bikes (we've had a very crappy bike rental thing around Shep Bush in the past and the bikes seemingly didn't get trashed). However, I do expect that come the next big demo which targets the banking sector, there will be a few hundred easy targets symbolising corporate greed which will be easy pickings for demonstrators.



Black Halo said:


> I'm unsure what you and your "anarchist" friends get up to or how much damage* you will be able to inflict but keep us updated please.



Feel free to tell me exactly where I have suggested that I intend to smash up these bikes. If you actually bother reading back a few posts you'll see that I said, and I quote:




			
				skyscraper101 said:
			
		

> ...for the record, I'm not into damaging these things. I actually want the system to work. And despite my dislike of having a banking giant turn these into mobile adverts for themselves - I'm not advocating wrecking these bikes and causing it to fail.



_Moi_? An anarchist? Lol as if.



Black Halo said:


> *I don't think ad-busting is mindless vandalism but actually funny and making a point but you seem to be suggesting smashing up the bikes purely because they have Barclay's logos (*or that someone will*)



Indeed. Someone will. Not me. As I said, _I'm_ not going to intentionally cause any damage to them. I likely won't even use them that much - but you can't say that it's impossible to imagine that a barclays branded bike wouldn't at some point be considered an obvious target for wreckage, or at the very least some kind of adbusting hijack. Last year one person caused £40,000 of damage to RBS's branch in Threadneedle St in protest during the G20 riots many others were witnessed smashing up symbols of banking. I'm not advocating it. I'm just saying is all.


----------



## DJWrongspeed (Jul 27, 2010)

Giles said:


> Why do some people think that there will be very high levels of vandalism of these bikes?



Because that has been the experience in Paris although the scheme is much bigger and well established there.  I believe the scheme loses quite a few bikes.  Link  .'Losing' as in ending up the Seine.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2010)

My understanding is that there were a lot of bikes lost/vandalised in the Paris scheme but that was mainly period soon after it was implemented. They made some changes to the docking stations as far as I recall, and the rates of loss/damage have now settled down to a significantly lower level.


----------



## Ted Striker (Jul 27, 2010)

Did I read correctly that there's a £250 charge if you bring it back after 24 hours? (and £300 if you lose it forever)

An expensive mistake to make! (and sounds like a revenue generator rather than a traditional fine/cost approach)


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2010)

Seems fair enough - I don't see how you could "accidentally" not bring it back before 24hrs seeing as you can only lock it up at a docking station.


----------



## co-op (Jul 27, 2010)

sleaterkinney said:


> Well in what way are they connected to bikes and transport?. it just seems a bit cynical - no purpose besides branding.


 
Barclays are obviously completely and utterly ignorant of anything to do with cycling; they published a 2-page advertorial for their various cycling ventures (the really totally bollocks "cyclng superhighways" are also sponsored by them) in the middle of Lambeth Life a couple of weeks ago. It had a series of statements about cycling that included this one, under the heading "cyclists have every right to be on the road"; "cyclists do not pay road tax as their vehicle does not cause wear and tear"...

This is so facepalm it's sad...one of the great stupid claims routinely made by the anti-cycle lobby is that cyclists 'don't pay road tax'. Er, no one does, it was abolished in the 1930s. Local roads are paid for out of Council Tax, major roads out of central govt tax. Anyone even half aware of the issues to do with cycling would know this - it's one of the hoary old cliches of what passes for debate between cyclists and motorists. For Barclays to repeat this bullshit is extraordinary; they can't even be bothered to get someone with a little knowledge in to right their ad copy. Pathetic.


----------



## Giles (Jul 27, 2010)

But riots like the ones you described bring together people in an angry mood, many who have come to smash up something. 

Do most of even these people go around breaking and destroying symbols of corporate power every day, or just when they have come together for a protest once every few years?

Giles..


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 27, 2010)

People don't go about smashing bank windows because the consequences are serious and the effect of doing so is to bring immediate attention onto oneself as a potential bank robber or something. I'm not surprised that people don't regularly go about doing it.

However, a bunch of barclays hire bikes - sat in the street after dark and a particularly bored, anti banking type person deciding to take out his or her frustration on the plastic logo on the back? I could see that happening. Easy to do, petty crime, hardly worth the police bothering with.

If they were thoughtful enough they could just damage the logo and still leave the bike free to use.


----------



## toblerone3 (Jul 27, 2010)

Just applied for my key. Wonder how long it will take to arrive.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Jul 27, 2010)

Giles said:


> But riots like the ones you described bring together people in an angry mood, many who have come to smash up something.
> 
> Do most of even these people go around breaking and destroying symbols of corporate power every day, or just when they have come together for a protest once every few years?
> 
> Giles..


There's a reason why signs are on banks etc, but that is no reason to stick a sign on everything else. Is there nothing that shouldn't be branded in your opinion?


----------



## Giles (Jul 27, 2010)

sleaterkinney said:


> There's a reason why signs are on banks etc, but that is no reason to stick a sign on everything else. Is there nothing that shouldn't be branded in your opinion?


 
Well, most forms of public transport carry advertisements - buses, taxis, trains and trams. The money raised from the ads presumably helps to reduce the cost of travelling.

This is not a new phenomenon, or a particularly controversial one - buses have had adverts since the 1920s at least.

Why should these bikes be exempt?

Giles..


----------



## stuff_it (Jul 27, 2010)

toblerone3 said:


> Just applied for my key. Wonder how long it will take to arrive.


 
Key, really?

WTF?

I just asked to borrow an angle grinder....


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 27, 2010)

Giles said:


> Why should these bikes be exempt?


 
Paris and Dublin have managed fine without a major sponsor slapping a big logo on each bike. Why should the people of London be turned into mobile bank adverts?

ETA. Got my key today. Guess whos logo is on it.


----------



## Crispy (Jul 27, 2010)

Mine will be sponsored by gaffa tape


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2010)

Giles said:


> Well, most forms of public transport carry advertisements - buses, taxis, trains and trams. The money raised from the ads presumably helps to reduce the cost of travelling.
> 
> This is not a new phenomenon, or a particularly controversial one - buses have had adverts since the 1920s at least.
> 
> ...


 
For me, it is the intrusiveness of the branding that is the difference.

The barclays branding is too closely intertwined with the London Transport branding. Even to the extent that the corporate Barclays colours have been used for the cycle hire logo. The impression created is not that it is a TfL scheme which gains advertising revenue from Barclays, but that it is a scheme run jointly by TfL and Barclays. To me that is a significant difference and it seems to me without precedence on London's public transport system. It compromises the whole notion of what "public" transport is about.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 27, 2010)

How about we rebrand Boris instead? He can be the Barclays Mayor of London, be forced to dress in bright blue and the revenue generated can be used to fund the cycle scheme.


----------



## Pat24 (Jul 28, 2010)

teuchter said:


> How about we rebrand Boris instead? He can be the Barclays Mayor of London, be forced to dress in bright blue and the revenue generated can be used to fund the cycle scheme.




speaking of which, i have my keys now and i have activated them whoohoo!


----------



## TitanSound (Jul 28, 2010)

I was in a pub in King's Cross last night and I saw loads of vans towing big racks full of the bikes.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Why should the people of London be turned into mobile bank adverts?



We already are. I have two bikes of my own, one has 'Specialized' splashed all over it, the other 'Dahon'.

If it keeps the costs down, who gives a fuck?

Though the colour of the scheme being the same as Barclays' is dodge, same for the super highway thing, don't think it's a coincidence.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2010)

I didn't know Specialized was a bank.


----------



## ruthyruth (Jul 28, 2010)

I'd rather have a sponsored scheme than no scheme at all. 

When is this going to be open to tourists/daytrippers?


----------



## fredfelt (Jul 28, 2010)

As well as Blue cycle routes sponsored by Barclays lets have Red roads, perhaps to mark the congestion zone, sponsored by Tesco's.  Yellow roads with blue cycle paths would look lovely - lets get McDonalds to help pay for these.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 28, 2010)

teuchter said:


> I didn't know Specialized was a bank.


 
Yes they are, mine even has a cashpoint.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2010)

ruthyruth said:


> I'd rather have a sponsored scheme than no scheme at all.
> 
> When is this going to be open to tourists/daytrippers?


 
In about a month.


----------



## ruthyruth (Jul 28, 2010)

teuchter said:


> In about a month.



Thanks. So how will this work for non-Londoners? Do I put my credit/debit card into the terminal and enter my PIN?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 28, 2010)

ruthyruth said:


> Thanks. So how will this work for non-Londoners? Do I put my credit/debit card into the terminal and enter my PIN?


 
Yep. It'll charge you £1 regardless, for the day, then topups for any trips you make over 30 minutes. And the full £300 or whatever it is if you fail to re-dock the bike after 24h.


----------



## ruthyruth (Jul 28, 2010)

That's pretty cheap. I think I can live with a Barclays sign at that price. Cheaper than the tube!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Yep. It'll charge you £1 regardless, for the day, then topups for any trips you make over 30 minutes. And the full £300 or whatever it is if you fail to re-dock the bike after 24h.


 
Presumably you'd need to have £300 available for them to freeze on the card until its returned no?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 28, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Presumably you'd need to have £300 available for them to freeze on the card until its returned no?


 
good question. no idea.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Presumably you'd need to have £300 available for them to freeze on the card until its returned no?


 
This is how it's worked in the French schemes I've used, I think. So, yes, probably.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2010)

Interestingly, this doesn't seem to be the case with the regular key system when I applied for my key. Just the £1 and the £3 for registration was taken.

So what happens if someone registers for the bike using a pre-paid mastercard with 4 pounds on it - then after the first rental of the bike, fails to return it?

How do TFL account for it?


----------



## Crispy (Jul 28, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Interestingly, this doesn't seem to be the case with the regular key system when I applied for my key. Just the £1 and the £3 for registration was taken.
> 
> So what happens if someone registers for the bike using a pre-paid mastercard with 4 pounds on it - then after the first rental of the bike, fails to return it?
> 
> How do TFL account for it?


 
I imagine the account is checked when you put the key in.


----------



## strung out (Jul 28, 2010)

they'll probably send you a bill


----------



## salem (Jul 28, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Interestingly, this doesn't seem to be the case with the regular key system when I applied for my key. Just the £1 and the £3 for registration was taken.
> 
> So what happens if someone registers for the bike using a pre-paid mastercard with 4 pounds on it - then after the first rental of the bike, fails to return it?
> 
> How do TFL account for it?



It's probably just one of those things they'll have to take the loss on. They have your address they sent the key to so would probably send you a bill and then take you to court for it if you don't pay. You could use a false name and rent a flat for a month to get the key but it's an awful lot of planning and bother in order to sabotage the scheme for 1 bike. The bikes would be near worthless (they're not exactly inconspicuous). The £300 is just to put people off taking them home after the pub and dumping them.



Crispy said:


> I imagine the account is checked when you put the key in.


 
I hope that they don't do that as I rarely have £300 available on my card which would make the scheme useless for me and I'd guess a good proportion of citizens.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2010)

Crispy said:


> I imagine the account is checked when you put the key in.



If this is the case, it will be interesting if a lot of people have registered for the system using a card with a small limit on it. So if your total spend limit is say £200, you won't be able to hire a bike because the card won't authorise it.

(likewise whatever limit is on your card and you're nearing your limit with less than £300 to spare)



strung out said:


> they'll probably send you a bill


 
If this is the case, it would be very easy to dodge "sorry, doesn't live here. Never heard of em" etc.


----------



## strung out (Jul 28, 2010)

perhaps


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## ruthyruth (Jul 28, 2010)

Ted Striker said:


> Did I read correctly that there's a £250 charge if you bring it back after 24 hours? (and £300 if you lose it forever)
> 
> An expensive mistake to make! (and sounds like a revenue generator rather than a traditional fine/cost approach)



from reading the website, looks that that particular sin is £150. Still an expensive mistake, mind!


----------



## netbob (Jul 29, 2010)

Before







After






(Green scouring pad and a sharp knife for the edges)


----------



## Pat24 (Jul 29, 2010)

/\ haha good one, will do the same.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 30, 2010)

memespring said:


> Before
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
Ha! I started doing that to mine and then decided life was too short.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 30, 2010)

They're out!  I was walking for about 20 mins through shoreditch tonight and passed about three docking stations half full of bikes.   None at the one nearest my work yet though.   

It'll take a big scouring pad to get the barclays logo off the bikes.


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## teuchter (Jul 30, 2010)

^Psst.

sp.


----------



## quimcunx (Jul 30, 2010)

It's late.  

Time for sleep.


----------



## Wolveryeti (Jul 30, 2010)

The velib fairy done delivered. Who will be the first to post a report? Not me, I only just registered now


----------



## Miss Potter (Jul 30, 2010)

I might try to get a quick ride in at lunchtime just to see how it works. Got my key activated etc and there's a docking station right outside my building (well, there would be as I work next to City Hall)


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## temper_tantrum (Jul 30, 2010)

Adbusting the Barclays logo ...

http://twitpic.com/29tf1o


----------



## fredfelt (Jul 30, 2010)

temper_tantrum said:


> Adbusting the Barclays logo ...
> 
> http://twitpic.com/29tf1o


 
I like!


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## Ted Striker (Jul 30, 2010)

So, to confirm, from a standing start, there's not way of using these for "free free" - any use (even the 30 minute tinkle) will require registration, the minimum of which is £1 for 7 days?

(Apols if this has been covered!)


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## Crispy (Jul 30, 2010)

The charging is split in two

First you pay an "access charge" - this is £1 for 24h, £5 for a week, £45 for a year
The access period begins when you undock the bicycle
Then you pay for each ride over 30 minutes you make in that access period


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 30, 2010)

temper_tantrum said:


> Adbusting the Barclays logo ...
> 
> http://twitpic.com/29tf1o


 
heh.. as predicted.


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## teuchter (Jul 30, 2010)

I've just been for a wee spin on one. The docking/undocking is very swift and straightforward with a key - no messing about typing codes in or anything like that.

My only complaint is that the 3rd gear could do with being a bit faster, as I think someone else mentioned earlier.


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## teuchter (Jul 30, 2010)

Also all the docking stations near me are full - so had to return the bike where I got it from. I'm sure this will not normally be the case though.


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## colacubes (Jul 30, 2010)

I had a go and the gears thing is my only complaint.  Feels like there should be 1 more gear.  Otherwise, very straightforward and the bikes ride well.  I might walk to Kennington and get one into work on days when I don't bring my own bike in


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## Biddlybee (Jul 30, 2010)

ooh where did you go from and to, and was there space where you wanted to leave it?

They said this morning that a van would drive around redistributing the bikes if thy found that docks were getting too full/others empty


----------



## netbob (Jul 30, 2010)




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## Biddlybee (Jul 30, 2010)




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## netbob (Jul 30, 2010)

First gear is useless and third-gear is not high enough. Other than that they are really very good. I had loads of people stop me to ask what they were like on the way back. Maybe they will make London more chatty too?


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## ruthyruth (Jul 30, 2010)

memespring said:


> First gear is useless


 
In what way? Too low? I like low gears


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## netbob (Jul 30, 2010)

ruthyruth said:


> In what way? Too low? I like low gears


 
It's really really low, so if you accidentally slip into it your legs start spinning round like roadrunner.


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## London_Calling (Jul 30, 2010)

Is the 'basket' actually a *basket*, iyswim? Would it hold, say,  a bag of shopping from Tesco?


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## Crispy (Jul 30, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> Is the 'basket' actually a *basket*, iyswim? Would it hold, say,  a bag of shopping from Tesco?


 
No, it's quite small - to prevent people sitting in it apparently. Any handbag will fit though. It has a built-in bungie cord for strapping things in


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## kyser_soze (Jul 30, 2010)

Boris Bike has sex with your wife's bike

Tee hee hee


----------



## London_Calling (Jul 30, 2010)

Cheers Crispy.

 On the lunchtime news, Johnson said Barclays paid £25 million for the privilege - did I read it's a five-year contract, I'm unsure?

The twat of an interviewer was going on about calling them 'Boris bikes', like he had anything to do with the idea. Fucking BBC idiot reporters again.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Jul 30, 2010)

So how many will be on critical mass tonight?


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## toblerone3 (Jul 30, 2010)

Just had a quick spin from Kings Cross to Oxford Street and back 17 minutes each way at a very easy pace. Bike is pretty heavy. Agree about the first gear being almost useless. I wonder where in the central area of London there is a hill steep enough to warrant its use. But the gear might me useful for less fit and elderly people to use. To me the bike feels sturdy like a postal bike. In this spirit I feel strongly it should be painted red. Used a key but the first three bikes didn't work. Just went to orange but not to green.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 30, 2010)

will many people other than tourists be using these? i fear their safety. i've hired bikes in berlin, but that's a very different place for bikes than london. when i first started riding here, it was well scary and it was a bit wobbly. there's gonna be lots of wobbly tourists skittering under lorries!


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## Dheffo (Jul 30, 2010)

Do these bikes have lights on em? I'm a bit peeved they're not extending them to zone 2 atm :/


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## teuchter (Jul 30, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> will many people other than tourists be using these?


 
I think so.

But safety is certainly an issue, more so in London than other cities I reckon.


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## Crispy (Jul 30, 2010)

In the middle of the handlebars, completely unmissable, is a big warning, with very legible diagram, saying DON'T GO UP THE LEFT OF LORRIES. I like this


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## kyser_soze (Jul 30, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> will many people other than tourists be using these? i fear their safety. i've hired bikes in berlin, but that's a very different place for bikes than london. when i first started riding here, it was well scary and it was a bit wobbly. there's gonna be lots of wobbly tourists skittering under lorries!


 


teuchter said:


> I think so.
> 
> But safety is certainly an issue, more so in London than other cities I reckon.



This can only work to the good tho. It means either:

1. Safer road conditions for cyclists in central London

2. Less tourists


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## ferrelhadley (Jul 30, 2010)

So many new cyclists 



((((((((urbanblues sanity))))))))))


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## beeboo (Jul 30, 2010)

Got my key this morning so I'll be giving them a go over the weekend.    I'm so confident I've already signed up for the year.


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## snowy_again (Jul 30, 2010)

Dheffo said:


> Do these bikes have lights on em? I'm a bit peeved they're not extending them to zone 2 atm :/



Yup, there's dynohubs built in, and lights on both sides of the rear stays. A bit low down mind, but they're there and keep going for 15 seconds once you've stopped.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 30, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> This can only work to the good tho. It means either:
> 
> 1. Safer road conditions for cyclists in central London
> 
> 2. Less tourists


how?


----------



## salem (Jul 31, 2010)

ferrelhadley said:


> So how many will be on critical mass tonight?


 
Myself and a mate decided to have a bit of a ride about tonight with these. Few beers, few pubs etc and with a stroke of luck ended up coming across Critical Mass. So yes, there were at least 2 of them on it!

After we left critical mass we went cruising around Shoreditch, Liverpool Street, South Bank, Soho etc and were asked our opinions on the bikes at least 10-15 times in the space of an hour or two actually riding them (general public after CM). People were literally stopping us on the streets. And all positive reactions too (even 2 black cab drivers wanted to chat at the lights!). Seems to have caught the imagination. Hopefully that momentum won't be lost by the fact it's a bit of a pain to actually get the key to use the bikes. Such a shame they couldn't have used the oyster card system but I'm sure there's good reasons for that.

Didn't have any problems with the 5 bikes I used, my friend had a bit of trouble docking one of them but that was about it.

Also found the bungee cords on the front will strap a can of beer in quite snugly. You'd want to drink half of it first to avoid spillage and allow for deformation though.


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## 19sixtysix (Jul 31, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> will many people other than tourists be using these?



I will. For me it is the perfect lunchtime pleasure and useful for trips to bank etc. I can now scoot much further a field than a half hours walk.
I hope my key arrives soon.

Just realised I could be classed as a lunchtime tourist


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Jul 31, 2010)

My key arrived this morning, was keen to activate and was not near a puter, so called the customer line...English clearly not the first language. We didn't get past my first name before I gave up. Looking forward to Monday and seeing how the commute goes...


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## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2010)

london residents - wouldn't it be cheaper and easier just to buy a bike?


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## ruthyruth (Jul 31, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> london residents - wouldn't it be cheaper and easier just to buy a bike?


 
I'm not so sure. 12 months membership of this is £45...so £90 for 2 years or £135 for 3. Thats right at the bottom of the new bike market. Ok you could get a decent second hand bike for that price, but you've still got to add lights and a decent lock if you're to have even a half-chance of it not getting nicked. 
So at best, it's the same price, not cheaper.

Easier? Well only if you've got room at home to store a bike without humping it up stairs or through the house to the back garden. And if you live outside zone 1 and don't fancy riding all the way into town, you can forget taking your bike on the tube or bus.


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## 19sixtysix (Jul 31, 2010)

Quite impressed. Registered yesterday and key arrived today. Just arrived at work for nights so will go for a ride on my lunch tonight.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2010)

ruthyruth said:


> I'm not so sure. 12 months membership of this is £45...so £90 for 2 years or £135 for 3. Thats right at the bottom of the new bike market. Ok you could get a decent second hand bike for that price, but you've still got to add lights and a decent lock if you're to have even a half-chance of it not getting nicked.
> So at best, it's the same price, not cheaper.
> 
> Easier? Well only if you've got room at home to store a bike without humping it up stairs or through the house to the back garden. And if you live outside zone 1 and don't fancy riding all the way into town, you can forget taking your bike on the tube or bus.


you can get a second hand bike for about 50 quid and by the looks of it, you might have a better quality bike. it seems a lot of bother to hire one. surely owning one and being able to take it anywhere is much better value than hiring one?
i live in a tiny flat and there's a corridor for two bikes and room at the foot of my bed for the other - there's room for one bike even in a studio flat!


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## 19sixtysix (Jul 31, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> you can get a second hand bike for about 50 quid and by the looks of it, you might have a better quality bike. it seems a lot of bother to hire one. surely owning one and being able to take it anywhere is much better value than hiring one?
> i live in a tiny flat and there's a corridor for two bikes and room at the foot of my bed for the other - there's room for one bike even in a studio flat!


 
I don't think its actualy about the cost. I have a bike but if I'm in town by train I now have a supply of bikes I can use whenever I like to go from a to b quicker than the bus or tube. Its perfect as I can use them when and if I want even for a one way journey.


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## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2010)

fair enough - finding it difficult, being a twat and as a bike owner, to imagine why hiring one is better than owning one. glad to be enlightened!


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## Open Sauce (Jul 31, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> london residents - wouldn't it be cheaper and easier just to buy a bike?


 
Costs a bit more to employ a man to ride your bike to wherever you want it, then ride it home when you get pissed


----------



## Orang Utan (Jul 31, 2010)

??? 
what do you mean?


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## Open Sauce (Jul 31, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> ???
> what do you mean?


 
Friday, I leave work, get a hire bike to the pub, get the tube home. As I own a bike, I'd have to pay a man to cycle my bike home from the pub to get the same benefit. That would cost me more that £45 a year.

Sometimes, I don't want to cycle into zone 1, but could use a bike to cross zone 1, again, I'd have to employ a man to cycle my bike in, be available in case, one a whim, I felt like cycling for 15 mins across z1, surely not cost effective.

I've yet to get the £45 key, but, in the last 2 days would have used one 3 or times.

It's not a replacement for my commute obviously, but it could well be good for those zone 1 trips - make sense?


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## Orang Utan (Aug 1, 2010)

i'm puzzled by your use of the term zone 1? what difference is travelling in zone 1?
i see what you mean about pubs. i've never considered going straight out after work though and if i do, i leave the bike at home. why would you want to get all sweaty before going out? always want to go home first. but people is people.


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## teuchter (Aug 1, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> fair enough - finding it difficult, being a twat and as a bike owner, to imagine why hiring one is better than owning one. glad to be enlightened!


 
The main reasons I don't use a bike in London are to do with not wanting to have to worry about locking it up and whether it'll get stolen, and also, having set out on a bike, then being committed to returning on it too.

The hire scheme removes both those issues. It also costs next to nothing (unlike owning a bike).


----------



## salem (Aug 1, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm puzzled by your use of the term zone 1? what difference is travelling in zone 1?
> i see what you mean about pubs. i've never considered going straight out after work though and if i do, i leave the bike at home. why would you want to get all sweaty before going out? always want to go home first. but people is people.


 
They are lazy bikes to ride. It's quite an important step IMHO to move cycling towards something done by regular people in regular clothes going at their own pace rather then making the mistake that many make which is to try and go as fast as possible to keep up with the traffic.

I rode about a few pubs yesterday with a mate and neither of us got sweaty. It was no more exerting then a brisk walk (and that's mainly I think because I've not cycled in a few months).

You have to consider how they cycle in Holland for example, no lycra, no flash lightweight bikes, no hurry etc. People often cycle to the pub there and they don't get sweaty.

And I presume the zone 1 references are because the scheme is only running in Zone 1.


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## Open Sauce (Aug 1, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i'm puzzled by your use of the term zone 1? what difference is travelling in zone 1?
> i see what you mean about pubs. i've never considered going straight out after work though and if i do, i leave the bike at home. why would you want to get all sweaty before going out? always want to go home first. but people is people.



I'd not expect to get sweaty on such a short trip were more of the time will be going slower than normal due to traffic. I work on zone 1, I tend to leave the bike at work if going out and if going out in zone 1 after work I can get a hire bike to the pub / gig / cinema


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## Pat24 (Aug 1, 2010)

I tried the bikes for the first time yesterday; a trip from Kennington Park post office to the Strand. It took me about 20 minutes as I kept being stopped by people asking me what the bike felt like, etc. I thought the bikes felt very comfortable and stable; I felt the heaviest gear wasn't heavy enough for me, and I wanted to go faster and I had to pedal like crazy to achieve more speed, but besides that really enjoyed the ride. 

One thing that I thought was quite funny and I'm so glad I realized on time, as i was waiting by the lights on the imax roundabout, the side of the right handlebar came off and dropped...i heard it drop and picked it up and put it back on, it hadn't been screwed on properly! 

I then docked the bike in and met Mr Pat nearby, who I later convinced to get hire a bike, which we got from Covent Garden. We rode to Mornington Crescent, where I went to pick my own bike and rode back to Lambeth North. 

Mr Pat24 found the bike comfortable, but isn't sure about being a barclays riding advert 

I'll definitely use the bikes again


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## beeboo (Aug 2, 2010)

I went to try out the bikes yesterday.  Armed with my official map of docking points,  I went to find the docking station nearest to my office....which apparently doesn't actually exist.  Went to look for the next nearest one...that doesn't exist either, nor the once after that (which is supposed to be outside the TfL offices!).  

The fourth one I went to look for was in fact where it was supposed to be, but by that point I'd walked so far I was already at one of the nearest docking stations to my destination, so ended up completing the journey on foot.  


However i can vouch for the fact it's bringing Londoners together - I ended up talking to someone else who was also on a frustrated search for a docking station.

I'm still keen on the idea but I wouldn't use them for anything time critical at the moment - I was trying to catch a train and luckily I'd left myself enough time to walk it, if I'd have been relying on getting a bike I'd have been stuffed.


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## beeboo (Aug 2, 2010)

Having just checked the TfL map online, at least the phantom docking stations aren't marked on there so officially don't exist other than on the TfL printed maps 

It also reveals that my office is in the middle of a massive docking station dead zone which renders the scheme much less useful to me, given it's a 10min walk to the nearest docking point.  <sigh>  

Wonder if it's too late to get my money back?


----------



## Kanda (Aug 2, 2010)

They're not really phantom docking stations, they just haven't been completed yet due to delays. It would be stupid to have the expense of printing out maps with the incomplete ones left out then have to do another print run when they are added.... 

Get your money back? All £3??


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2010)

Hmmm....tried the bike this morning and found it ridiculously hard work. First gear was pointless, second and third were just not comfortable. Maybe I'd drunk too much yesterday or something, but I was fucked after a short ride from Waterloo to Victoria. Am I doing it wrong or something?


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 2, 2010)

Lots of them haven't been set up well by SERCO apparently... they've over tightened the rear drum brake, which makes it feel like you're constantly pedalling up hill. I guess that will wear off in a week or so.


----------



## ExtraRefined (Aug 2, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> Hmmm....tried the bike this morning and found it ridiculously hard work. First gear was pointless, second and third were just not comfortable. Maybe I'd drunk too much yesterday or something, but I was fucked after a short ride from Waterloo to Victoria. Am I doing it wrong or something?



The gearing is apparently 32 gear inches for the lowest gear, and 60 for the highest. A road bike would usually have a range or something like 37 to 112 GI, so the lowest gear on the boris bikes is very low indeed, and the highest isn't that high. You'd need a cadence of 120rpm to do 21mph.

Reports say taht a lot of them have the brakes overtightened so far they're rubbing, which might also account for it.



salem said:


> You have to consider how they cycle in Holland for example, no lycra, no flash lightweight bikes, no hurry etc. People often cycle to the pub there and they don't get sweaty.



That's because they're feckless continental communists. Where's the fun in pootling about.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 2, 2010)

So, geared for a more lesuirely ride rather than tanking along....


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 2, 2010)

Kanda said:


> So, geared for a more lesuirely ride rather than tanking along....


 
Seems so and I was prepared for a leisurely ride, but was out of breath and dripping with sweat after such a short ride. Which is odd, on Saturday I cycled over 40 miles on my bike with no problems at all.

Hopefully it's just the brakes rubbing and this will get better.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 2, 2010)

It must be tricky when you know your market for the same set up will range for active old dears to young school kids and from 30 stone Americans to athletic 20-somethings. Not a substitute for your own, I suppose.


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## beeboo (Aug 2, 2010)

Kanda said:


> They're not really phantom docking stations, they just haven't been completed yet due to delays. It would be stupid to have the expense of printing out maps with the incomplete ones left out then have to do another print run when they are added....
> 
> Get your money back? All £3??



You'd have thought it wouldn't be in their interests to annoy the would-be early adopters by frustrating them with a map that isn't accurate.  

As for the money - it's the £45 I'd paid for the year on the assumption there's a docking station a couple of minutes walk from my office.  It's not worth me having an annual membership until that one exists, as I reckon most of my usage is going to be heading-somewhere-after-work.


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## Kanda (Aug 2, 2010)

You paid £45 without looking at a map of locations? 

I'm going to try it this week, if it's any good, I'll go for the annual membership. It says in the bottom right corner of the map that it's not the final list of docking stations though, they're adding more all the time apparently.. I guess if demand is there.


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## Mapped (Aug 2, 2010)

beeboo said:


> You'd have thought it wouldn't be in their interests to annoy the would-be early adopters by frustrating them with a map that isn't accurate.


 
....and a registration system that doesn't work. I've filled in the form on-line a few times today and get a 'website unavailable' message each time. 

I've a docking station near work and one a few minutes walk from my flat so this scheme suits me pretty well. I'm getting my own bike on work's cycle hire scheme in a few months so I'll probably use it less when I've sorted that out. I like the fact that you can have up to 4 keys on your membership, that will be pretty useful for when guests come from out of town.


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## salem (Aug 2, 2010)

There were issues with planning permission on some of the stations too. Perhaps the area of your work is fully of NIMBY's?

Frustrating but the map I had of docking stations mentioned that they were subject to change.

Actually I felt a map of docking stations on the bike might have been a good idea (how it'd work in practice I'm not sure)


----------



## ShiftyBagLady (Aug 2, 2010)

Do they have bikes for short people?


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## Mapped (Aug 2, 2010)

dp


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## salem (Aug 2, 2010)

The seat is easily adjustable and seems suitable for most heights.


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## London_Calling (Aug 2, 2010)

Is that £45 going to look like value on a wet/freezing Nov-March day  . . . I suppose it'll depend on lifestyle, convenience and hardiness . . .


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## beeboo (Aug 2, 2010)

Kanda said:


> You paid £45 without looking at a map of locations?


 
Of course I looked at the map, that's what led me to believe there were a number of docking stations in the vicinity of my office 

As the map says they're adding more all the time, I kind of thought the ones that are already on the map would actually exist.  



> There were issues with planning permission on some of the stations too. Perhaps the area of your work is fully of NIMBY's?



I work near Parliament Square, so yeah, probably


----------



## kyser_soze (Aug 3, 2010)

> It must be tricky when you know your market for the same set up will range for active old dears to young school kids and from *30 stone Americans *to athletic 20-somethings.



Nah. I reckon that for many Americans, bikes=communism, so this kind of social bike hire scheme would = ultracommie. No Real American would partake.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 3, 2010)

Had a go this morning. Rode from Oxford Circus to work, Broadwick St. All docks were full so I had to ride half way back to another dock and walk 

So, quicker to walk that little trip


----------



## colacubes (Aug 3, 2010)

BiddlyBee said:


> ooh where did you go from and to, and was there space where you wanted to leave it?
> 
> They said this morning that a van would drive around redistributing the bikes if thy found that docks were getting too full/others empty



Just realised I never answered.  On Friday it was only from Southwark Road to Tower Bridge, but yesterday I rode from Tower Bridge back to Oval after work.  There were plenty of docking spaces there.

One tip though, check how the back wheel spins before you get a bike.  They've really overtightened the brakes (I think ) on a lot of them and the one I had yesterday was really stiff to ride and felt like very hard work unlike the one I had on Friday.


----------



## Biddlybee (Aug 3, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Had a go this morning. Rode from Oxford Circus to work, Broadwick St. All docks were full so I had to ride half way back to another dock and walk
> 
> So, quicker to walk that little trip






salem said:


> The seat is easily adjustable and seems suitable for most heights.


I don't think some people know this from what I saw this morning


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2010)

There's a very neat free Android app that lets users know where the bike stations are and if any bikes/slots are available:







http://www.wirefresh.com/cycle-hire-widget-for-android-lets-londoners-find-tfl-cycles-quickly/


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2010)

Aye, there's one that does the same for the iPhone too 'London Cycle'.


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## editor (Aug 3, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Aye, there's one that does the same for the iPhone too 'London Cycle'.


Why didn't you use it?


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## Crispy (Aug 3, 2010)

editor said:


> Why didn't you use it?


 
You don't need to, the docking stations have all that information on them anyway.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 3, 2010)

editor said:


> Why didn't you use it?


 
I used it before I got on the Tube, there was 8 spaces outside work. That obviously changed in the 20 mins it took to get there


----------



## editor (Aug 3, 2010)

Crispy said:


> You don't need to, the docking stations have all that information on them anyway.


 But what if you're _on your way_ to a docking station? Or looking to pick up a bike?


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## Crispy (Aug 3, 2010)

editor said:


> But what if you're _on your way_ to a docking station? Or looking to pick up a bike?


 
Ah, well _then_ you'd use it, obviously.


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## Kanda (Aug 3, 2010)

editor said:


> http://www.wirefresh.com/cycle-hire-widget-for-android-lets-londoners-find-tfl-cycles-quickly/


 
Ha! That video is right outside my work, the one that was full this morning


----------



## teuchter (Aug 4, 2010)

system seems to be screwed at the moment. Have tried 3 different docking locations and none will let me take a bike. And the terminals aren't responding.


----------



## ferrelhadley (Aug 4, 2010)

Boris's true motives have been rumbled by an astute US politician......



> Three months ago, Denver Mayor and Colorado gubernatorial candidate John Hickenlooper (D) helped start an ambitious bike share program that has already attracted 14,000 memberships and been a big success.  As TP reports, one of Hickenlooper’s opponents in the Governor’s race sees something sinister lurking behind the mayor’s policies:
> 
> Republican gubernatorial candidate Dan Maes is warning voters that Denver Mayor John Hickenlooper’s policies, particularly his efforts to boost bike riding, are “converting Denver into a United Nations community.”
> 
> ...


Climate Progress


----------



## Cobbles (Aug 4, 2010)

editor said:


> There's a very neat free Android app that lets users know where the bike stations are and if any bikes/slots are available:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

So much technology - for nothing.

Leave the phone in your pocket and just hail a cab.........

It'll take you from where you are to your destination, not a point a couple of hundred yards from your destination, oops, no that's full, I'll have to go on another half a mile etc.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 4, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> So much technology - for nothing.
> 
> Leave the phone in your pocket and just hail a cab.........
> 
> It'll take you from where you are to your destination, not a point a couple of hundred yards from your destination, oops, no that's full, I'll have to go on another half a mile etc.



I imagine the tax included in your taxi fare helps pay for the bicycles, so everyone's happy!


----------



## Mapped (Aug 5, 2010)

I used one of these bikes to get to work this morning and it went pretty smoothly. There were loads of bikes at the point behind the N1 centre at Angel, so it didn't matter that the 1st two I tried didn't unlock. The journey was pretty smooth, but it is more or less all downhill.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 5, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> So much technology - for nothing.
> 
> Leave the phone in your pocket and just hail a cab.........
> 
> It'll take you from where you are to your destination, not a point a couple of hundred yards from your destination, oops, no that's full, I'll have to go on another half a mile etc.


 
It'd cost about 15x as much, of course, and take up 6x as much road space, but these are minor factors compared to personal comfort.


----------



## kyser_soze (Aug 5, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Nah. I reckon that for many Americans, bikes=communism, so this kind of social bike hire scheme would = ultracommie. No Real American would partake.


 


ferrelhadley said:


> Boris's true motives have been rumbled by an astute US politician......
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
And there was me thinking I was making a joke about the yanks thinking it was commie...


----------



## co-op (Aug 5, 2010)

Cobbles said:


> So much technology - for nothing.
> 
> Leave the phone in your pocket and just hail a cab.........
> 
> It'll take you from where you are to your destination, not a point a couple of hundred yards from your destination, oops, no that's full, I'll have to go on another half a mile etc.


 
Spot the out-of-towner. 

Taxis are great when you can find one (the more likely you are to want one, the more likely they are to be all busy) and there aren't any traffic jams (middle of the night? - don't forget black cabs take you on special Knowledge routes that strangely involve semi-impassable traffic lights and suchlike and you will spend a good deal of time sitting stock still) and of course when you happen to have limitless dosh on you.

That London, eh?


----------



## kyser_soze (Aug 5, 2010)

C'mon co-op, you know Cobbles of old. It's his standard troll.


----------



## co-op (Aug 5, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> C'mon co-op, you know Cobbles of old. It's his standard troll.


 
Well that's true but he likes to imply that he's been around a bit, knows how it 'really' works for the elite he thinks he belongs to  etc etc. So it's worth pointing out that not only is he a tory no-mark troll, but he's also a bit of a yokel.



Taxi!


I say TAXI!


*chuckles*


----------



## salem (Aug 6, 2010)

Anyone else waiting on a key? I applied for mine online 2 weeks ago and it still hasn't turned up. I called them today and the woman said she could see my account on the system but the key just hadn't been sent out for some reason. 

She said she'd seen a few similar cases. So if you anyone hasn't got a key but applied for one, then perhaps give them a bell.


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 6, 2010)

What bugs me about this scheme is the fact you currently need a credit card to register, thus making it a predominately middle class resource.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

Having a debit or credit card makes it middle class???? You're fucking joking right??


----------



## Crispy (Aug 6, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> What bugs me about this scheme is the fact you currently need a credit card to register, thus making it a predominately middle class resource.


 
At the moment it's registration only. When it's fully running, you can walk up and use a bank card directly at the dock, no registration required.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> What bugs me about this scheme is the fact you currently need a credit card to register, thus making it a predominately middle class resource.


 


Since when has owning a credit card been middle class? Anyone can get one unless you've a bad credit history. Even if you have a bad rating you can get a pre-paid one. Cashless is always my preference.

Anyway, the simple answer is they probably need credit cards (with £300 spare on them) in order to ensure if you nick the bike, then can take the £300 owing.

I agree that is going to be frustrating for anyone who doesn't have a spare £300 knocking around on a credit card (youngsters / less well off people etc.)


----------



## kyser_soze (Aug 6, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> What bugs me about this scheme is the fact you currently need a credit card to register, thus making it a predominately middle class resource.


 
Define middle class for the purposes of your comment pls.

According to the OFT(p11, 4.9)-, 44% of UK cardholders are from C2DE demographics, and 71% of Britons own one.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 6, 2010)

Crispy said:


> At the moment it's registration only. When it's fully running, you can *walk up* and use a bank card directly at the dock, no registration required.


 
Oh hark at you, walking up indeed, fooking middle class 'walking up' wanker.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Aug 6, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Since when has owning a credit card been middle class? Anyone can get one unless you've a bad credit history. Even if you have a bad rating you can get a pre-paid one. Cashless is always my preference.
> 
> Anyway, the simple answer is they probably need credit cards (with £300 spare on them) in order to ensure if you nick the bike, then can take the £300 owing.
> 
> I agree that is going to be frustrating for anyone who doesn't have a spare £300 knocking around on a credit card (youngsters / less well off people etc.)


 
You don't need £300 on your card.


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 6, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Having a debit or credit card makes it middle class???? You're fucking joking right??


 What I'm saying is having £300 spare on a *credit *card before being able to register is restrictive to those on a low income.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 6, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> What I'm saying is having £300 spare on a *credit *card before being able to register is restrictive to those on a low income.


 
Well, I registered on a debit card so somehow I tricked the system.

And you don't need £300 spare on your card.


----------



## Crispy (Aug 6, 2010)

T&Cs here: http://www.tfl.gov.uk/termsandconditions/15869.aspx

nothing about having the required amount on the card, just that you must have one.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> What I'm saying is having £300 spare on a *credit *card before being able to register is restrictive to those on a low income.


 
you don't need £300 on it. It's not a deposit scheme...


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 6, 2010)

In case some didn't know, you can get PAYG mastercards now, or pre-paid Mastercards, or, well, that kind of thing. You don't put money on them until you want to use them - no credit history required.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

If you don't need £300 on them - how do they bill you for non-returned bike?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 6, 2010)

Go on, see if you can think it through.


----------



## Pat24 (Aug 6, 2010)

I used my debit card to register, so the person who said something about credit card is not correct. 
oh I am no way middle class. 
I am a working class immigrant.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> Go on, see if you can think it through.



Well other than sending a letter to whichever address you used to sign up with and continually chasing the name on the card which you provided (which could be any name if you signed up for a pre-paid credit card) - I don't know how they account for it.

I know with rental cars it comes under insurance paid for and guaranteed by photocopies of driving licenses etc - but this seems too easy to get away with, especially if you're a foreigner with no fixed UK address. How they gonna chase you up? Interpol?


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 6, 2010)

> which could be any name if you signed up for a pre-paid credit card


 . . . is where the plan goes wrong.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> . . . is where the plan goes wrong.


 
Not really. Aren't they registered to an address??


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

So the short answer is, they can't do anything but chase the details they hold on account 

Let's see how many bikes end up going missing before the system is forced to change and/or the cost is passed onto bus/tube passengers etc.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

They're fucking shit bikes though, why bother nicking them?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Not really. Aren't they registered to an address??


 
Yes, but who's address? I could register a card to any address - doesn't need to be a credit check against it or anything linked to it. I could register to my mate's nan's brother-in-law's place and TFL would be sent on a merry-go-round of chasing up someone who could just cancel their card once they got the bike and disappear forever.

And then there's still the question of foreigners. I can hardly see them spending money on international revenue collection agencies for the sake of £300. It'd cost them more than that to try and retrieve the cash.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 6, 2010)

.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kanda said:


> They're fucking shit bikes though, why bother nicking them?


 
Well, quite. But all kinds of crap bikes get nicked all the time. If someone works out they could punt them on for £40/£50 outside of London or something - it could be worth doing.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

This is just like repeating the last 22 pages 

Read the thread?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

yeah yeah... theory is TFL will write it off.

But it's just a flaw I'm highlighting. A possibility. Can't see who'd want to buy a nicked Boris-bike myself either - but stranger things have happened.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

Boris has already announced he's getting another few thousand bikes to expand it to Mainline stations.


----------



## toblerone3 (Aug 6, 2010)

I didn't use a credit card to register just a debit card.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 6, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> yeah yeah... theory is TFL will write it off.
> 
> But it's just a flaw I'm highlighting.


 It's not a "flaw". It's a balance between being responsible and accessibility, and it's a process as well.  On the one hand there's you going on about nicking them, and just above there's someone else who thinks it's "middle class" . . .


If it doesn't work out well, they'll presumably exclude pre-paid and debit cards.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Kanda said:


> Boris has already announced he's getting another few thousand bikes to expand it to Mainline stations.


 
It's just a proposal and talks are only in 'early stages' apparently.  Also this is subject to TFL approving the £81 Million required. No word at all on if it will roll out any further west than Kensington. Meanwhile in the east...




			
				Evening Standard said:
			
		

> Mr Johnson also wants to expand the scheme in east London for the 2012 Games, although cycling is banned inside the Olympic Park.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 6, 2010)

Chris Hoy must be gutted


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> It's not a "flaw". It's a balance between being responsible and accessibility, and it's a process as well.  On the one hand there's you going on about nicking them, and just above there's someone else who thinks it's "middle class" . . .
> 
> 
> If it doesn't work out well, they'll presumably exclude pre-paid and debit cards.



Well, I agree - its a balance they've struck and a risk they've accepted. I'm just pointing out the possible pitfalls is all. I'm just concerned that if it does fail, they'll end up paying higher insurance premiums funded by a hike in the costs (or it will get passed on to bus/tube passengers).

Maybe there is no win win situation. It would totally suck for those on low incomes, or without £300 to spare having to freeze this amount on their card every time they want to hire a bike. I expect they've studied he Paris system and decided on the way forward.


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 6, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> ...and just above there's someone else who thinks it's "middle class" . . .


That was me. 

Jenny Jones of the London Assembly has suggested the current charges could put some low-income Londoners off the scheme completely. 


I stand corrected on the needing a credit card to register, I was misinformed.


----------



## Giles (Aug 6, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> It's not a "flaw". It's a balance between being responsible and accessibility, and it's a process as well.  On the one hand there's you going on about nicking them, and just above there's someone else who thinks it's "middle class" . . .
> 
> 
> If it doesn't work out well, they'll presumably exclude pre-paid and debit cards.


 
I can understand not accepting these anonymous prepaid cards, for the reasons mentioned about difficulty in tracing the person if they steal the bike.

But why are debit cards less "good" than credit cards? 

More people have a debit card than have a credit card. 

A debit card takes money out of someone's main bank account. In the case of both debit and credit cards, if TFL tried to take £300 out if the bike disappears, it may or may not work, depending if the hirer has any money in their bank / an overdraft facility / is below their credit limit.

What is the difference?

Giles..


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 6, 2010)

Giles said:


> What is the difference?



Aren't banks more likely to let you go over your limit, in order to charge you fees for doing so?


----------



## Giles (Aug 6, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Aren't banks more likely to let you go over your limit, in order to charge you fees for doing so?


 
If they do this, they could do it with both debit AND credit cards, couldn't they? 

Pretty much all card transactions nowadays are authorised online to your bank, so the bank can decline a transaction that goes over a set limit.

When people go over their overdraft limits, its usually because of direct debits, cheques, standing orders etc.


----------



## Sunray (Aug 7, 2010)

Giles said:


> I can understand not accepting these anonymous prepaid cards, for the reasons mentioned about difficulty in tracing the person if they steal the bike.
> 
> But why are debit cards less "good" than credit cards?
> 
> ...


 
Quite a bit, once you authorise a Credit Card payment, I challenge you to take it back.  You can cancel the card and in the future, someone charges you to that cancelled card, you'll still get sent letters asking for the money and it'll get move to a debt collector and they'll take you to court to get the money back.  Not so for a debit card.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> That was me.
> 
> Jenny Jones of the London Assembly has suggested the current charges could put some low-income Londoners off the scheme completely.



 I watched it and she doesn't directly address your claim. She does compare costs with other cities but you could do that with anything from housing to tube travel as well and London would come out as more expensive.

I struggle to see how this disadvantages those on low-income when it's cheaper than public transport alternatives?


----------



## beeboo (Aug 7, 2010)

Had my first go on one the other day - I'm used to riding my own bike so the heaviness and slowness took a bit of getting used to.

Then I suffered the indignity whilst on my own bike to be overtaken by someone on a Boris Bike


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 7, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> I watched it and she doesn't directly address your claim. She does compare costs with other cities but you could do that with anything from housing to tube travel as well and London would come out as more expensive.I struggle to see how this disadvantages those on low-income when it's cheaper than public transport alternatives?



After watching the video I sent her an email and in her reply she acknowledged the charges were a concern and for those without a credit card the scheme was in inaccessible. The green group our putting together a report for TFL from all the comments she gets and hopes to see improvements quite rapidly.


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 7, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> I struggle to see how this disadvantages those on low-income when it's cheaper than public transport alternatives?


 
One example, roughly calculated as I’m on my way out:

A significant number of people on benefits don’t have a bank account and have their benefits paid into a post office card account (lets assume borisbike’s now accept these) Unless you have the £48 to pay the annual membership up front you’ll either have to pay £5 per week or £1 a day to access the scheme - compare these cost with a subsidized weekly bus pass of £8.30.


----------



## Giles (Aug 7, 2010)

If the person is at or near their limit, then if TFL tried to charge an extra £300, it would just be declined. Haven't you ever had a credit card transaction declined because you are at your limit?

Giles..


----------



## Kanda (Aug 7, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> One example, roughly calculated as I’m on my way out:
> 
> A significant number of people on benefits don’t have a bank account and have their benefits paid into a post office card account (lets assume borisbike’s now accept these) Unless you have the £48 to pay the annual membership up front you’ll either have to pay £5 per week or £1 a day to access the scheme - compare these cost with a subsidized weekly bus pass of £8.30.



So my guess is they'll get a bus. These bikes aren't exactly an essential part of daily life are they...


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 7, 2010)

Kanda said:


> So my guess is they'll get a bus. These bikes aren't exactly an essential part of daily life are they...


Still, the option would be nice - don't ya think?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 7, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> After watching the video I sent her an email and in her reply she acknowledged the charges were a concern and for those without a credit card the scheme was in inaccessible. The green group our putting together a report for TFL from all the comments she gets and hopes to see improvements quite rapidly.



She needs to get her facts straight before expressing her opinion.


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 7, 2010)

teuchter said:


> She needs to get her facts straight before expressing her opinion.


 
How do you mean?

If you're referring to the 'credit card' remark I assumed she used the term to cover bank cards in general.


----------



## Kanda (Aug 7, 2010)

maldwyn said:


> Still, the option would be nice - don't ya think?


 
I'd quite like the option of a small boat on the coast... Can you whittle one for me please?


----------



## maldwyn (Aug 7, 2010)

Kanda said:


> I'd quite like the option of a small boat on the coast... Can you whittle one for me please?


 
But your small boat wouldn't be a publicly funded resource


----------



## Crispy (Aug 7, 2010)

How could you modify the system to make it more accessible?


----------



## teuchter (Aug 7, 2010)

Maybe you could allow people to register by their address with some proof that they lived there.


----------



## Open Sauce (Aug 7, 2010)

Crispy said:


> How could you modify the system to make it more accessible?


 
Don't see why they couldn't have a similar discount for job seekers like they do on the buses and trams (why not off-peak tube?) 

http://www.tfl.gov.uk/corporate/media/newscentre/11482.aspx

Loss / damage provision could be made by properly registering, presumably pay back at a similar rate to any other fine. Would need big joined up government for that though.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 7, 2010)

tbf, I don't think 60p a bus journey is too bad to be getting on with. 

If and when a group representing people who feel excluded make a case, that might be a time to think about an issue that hasn't yet been raised.


----------



## laptop (Aug 7, 2010)

salem said:


> The other thing I find interesting is that there is no provision for helmets which goes against everything that has been drummed into us over the years by cycling organisations.




What I thought when I saw people actually using them for the first time...



salem said:


> I understand that requiring helmets would make the system unworkable and broadly support the scheme...



Not impossible? Is it possible to make a helmet that adjusts to head size? With a sturdy strap at the back, that you leave attached to the bike...

Apart from the nits problem, anyway. 



salem said:


> it'll make for interesting media when the inevitable happens (that + the bikes being very distinctive = perfect front page photo opp)



Yesterday I tried to open a book on "First screaming _Fail_ headline about Boris Bike Bloodbath" but there were no takers  I say 7 September.


----------



## salem (Aug 10, 2010)

BBC said:
			
		

> People using London's cycle hire scheme are being charged an access fee for every key they hold, even if they use just one to release a bicycle.
> 
> Link



Just seen this which seems utterly utterly stupid. I really don't get how they can get something so fundamental wrong. The ideal solution would be that one key could unlock 2 bikes so you can ride with an unregistered partner. The two keys method is a bit annoying in that you have to carry two around. But to charge the access fee for each key even if you use only one! Utterly stupid and will now no doubt lead to lots of people cancelling their extra keys (if not their whole account).

As someone who's so far only on the £1/day access fee scheme this essentially doubles the cost for me to use it.


----------



## London_Calling (Aug 10, 2010)

That's really annoying.

Elsewhere, I'm pretty surprised the media hasn't come up with stories of disaffected yoofs forming giant bonfires of stolen bikes. In fact, I haven't seen any major negativity yet. Apart from what's his name on here.


----------



## Mapped (Aug 10, 2010)

salem said:


> Just seen this which seems utterly utterly stupid. I really don't get how they can get something so fundamental wrong. The ideal solution would be that one key could unlock 2 bikes so you can ride with an unregistered partner. The two keys method is a bit annoying in that you have to carry two around. But to charge the access fee for each key even if you use only one! Utterly stupid and will now no doubt lead to lots of people cancelling their extra keys (if not their whole account).
> 
> As someone who's so far only on the £1/day access fee scheme this essentially doubles the cost for me to use it.



This put me off getting an extra key. They explained it would double my charges at any subscription length so I said no thanks. It's a bit mad that we've got to set up another account with a different card if we want a spare key at a reasonable cost.


----------



## gaijingirl (Aug 10, 2010)

London_Calling said:


> That's really annoying.
> 
> Elsewhere, I'm pretty surprised the media hasn't come up with stories of disaffected yoofs forming giant bonfires of stolen bikes. In fact, I haven't seen any major negativity yet. Apart from what's his name on here.



I read a story yesterday that said that so far there's been one theft and 3 cases of vandalism - but massive take up of the scheme - think it was on the BBC... I agree, it's been overwhelmingly positive so far.  I'm pleased.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 10, 2010)

people may find this interesting: 
http://ibikelondon.blogspot.com/2010/08/national-travel-survey-cyclings-canary.html


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 11, 2010)

It's totally stupid you can't use one key to access two bikes. In just the same way you can't use your TFL oyster account to access the system. So if you're already manage your oyster card online and want a key for you and a key for your partner/friend/whatever you have to have three separate accounts online.

More fuckwittery from TFL.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 11, 2010)

My cycle hire trip today.

\start lunch hour

Get bike.
Get caught in one way system that doesn't go the way I want to
Wait at traffic lights.
Get caught in one way system that doesn't go the way I want to
Wait at traffic lights.
Get shouted at by Taxi driver
Get caught in one way system that doesn't go the way I want to
Inexplicably find myself on pedestrian area
Look for docking station near to intended destination
Fail to find docking station near to intended destination
Consult TfL docking station map on phone
Wait for TfL docking station web page to load on phone and be not really suitable for use on a mobile device
Head towards docking station
Wait at traffic lights.
Get caught in one way system that doesn't go the way I want to
Find docking station
Docking station full
Docking station terminal has crashed so can't claim extra 15 minutes
Head off to alternative docking station
Get caught in one way system that doesn't go the way I want to
Wait at traffic lights
Find alternative docking station
Dock bike with 1 min 34 seconds left on half-hour allowance
Walk to intended destination
No time left to actually do intended stuff at intended destination
Get on tube back to work

/end lunch hour


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 11, 2010)

OMG those terminals are STILL crashing?! It's been like what, a couple of weeks now!

They have seriously screwed up launching this system.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 11, 2010)

I think "seriously screwed up" is a bit excessive. It's a massive scheme and it's only been up and running for, as you say, a couple of weeks. I'm surprised there haven't been more problems.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 11, 2010)

teuchter said:


> My cycle hire trip today.
> 
> \start lunch hour
> 
> ...


 
On the bright side at least you were exercised. 

/cunning wordplay]


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 11, 2010)

teuchter said:


> I think "seriously screwed up" is a bit excessive. It's a massive scheme and it's only been up and running for, as you say, a couple of weeks. I'm surprised there haven't been more problems.


 
Alright, it's not Terminal 5 quite yet. But all this is just on top of the system failing sometimes to register bikes as returned, failing in some places to let you remove a bike, failing to even be delivered on time to some areas, failing to integrate it with your most likely already existing Oyster account to manage it. Not to mention the one account per bike only rule, and the convenient omission of Amex as a payment method.

What was is Boris said? the "Rolls Royce" of bike hire schemes or something. Hardly.


----------



## snowy_again (Aug 11, 2010)

I think I read something today about TFL making Serco install the system within a much shorter time frame than originally planned, hence some of the teething problems.


----------



## sleaterkinney (Aug 11, 2010)

Bike agenda spins cities toward U.N. control says Republican gubernatorial candidate Dan Maes


http://www.denverpost.com/election2010/ci_15673894


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2010)

quimcunx said:


> On the bright side at least you were exercised.
> 
> /cunning wordplay]


 
I don't get it. Not cunning enough.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2010)

teuchter said:


> I don't get it. Not cunning enough.


 
''exercise - to engage the attention and energy of, esp. so as to worry, perplex, or harass: used esp. in the passive: greatly exercised about the decision''


----------



## 19sixtysix (Aug 12, 2010)

My ride today.

Got lift to bike station near blackfriers. Cycled down to get No 3 bus. Put bike back at  kennington road where staff were removing excess bikes. Walked across road caught bus. Another 1.20 bus fare saved and I did some more exercise. Fuck all wrong with that.


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2010)

the other day there were only 3 outside my work.  Today and yesterday none.  They are digging up the road just beside so maybe there is something wrong.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2010)

do they take them away at night?


----------



## quimcunx (Aug 12, 2010)

Don't think so. I walked past several loaded up bays about 10pm the other week.


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 12, 2010)

it's just that i saw a lorry delivering a load to an empty docking station in earl's court this morning. seems like a major operation if they do.


----------



## teuchter (Aug 12, 2010)

They don't take them away at night as far as I know but they do redistribute them during the day. There is a kind of little electric vehicle which tows a trailer around, upon which the bikes can be stowed.

I'm guessing that it's going to take a few weeks monitoring the usage patterns before they'll have a good picture of when and where the docking stations tend to get empty or full, and then they'll hopefully be able to redistribute more effectively than at present.

Loads of stations in the bond st/oxford st/regent st area were completely empty when I walked through there this evening.


----------



## gentlegreen (Aug 12, 2010)

sleaterkinney said:


> Bike agenda spins cities toward U.N. control says Republican gubernatorial candidate Dan Maes
> 
> 
> http://www.denverpost.com/election2010/ci_15673894


 
Today, bicycles, tomorrow ...

The Yanks do paranoid lunacy so much better than we do ...


----------



## Wolveryeti (Aug 15, 2010)

Things that annoy me about the cycle hire scheme:

1) If you buy more than one key, each time you use one, you get charged an access fee for all of your keys. 

2) There's a 'cooling off' period after you drop off a bike during which you can't take out any bikes from that block of docking bays, and I don't know how long it is. 

3) The 'basket' is utterly crap and pointless. 

4) They are too slow, and about 50% of them are set up with brakes that rub on the back wheel in ordinary motion.

5) The map with the red dots on it lies. 

6) It's going to make me extra paranoid about losing my keys. 

I'm still probably going to use it though. There are nights out when bringing your own bike just isn't practical.


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## salem (Aug 16, 2010)

I've had a fair few problems with docking stations refusing to give me a bike. Light goes red when the key is put in. Walking to another station and it's fine.

Still unsure how to renew a 1 day access period. The website tries to sell you another key with it, the terminals don't seem to have the facility yet and the auto-renew feature will cost me double.


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## Crispy (Aug 17, 2010)

Ok, I'm committed to taking my first trip on one of these today. Barbican to Regent's Park. Wish me luck.


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## quimcunx (Aug 17, 2010)

May god be with you, crisps.


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## Crispy (Aug 17, 2010)

In the hard times, there will be one bicycle track in the sand, where He was giving me a backie.


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## Placid Casual27 (Aug 18, 2010)

I have joined and used it 6 times this week Moorgate to Tooley Street and back again, has cut the 25 min walk each way to 8 mins and it is a buzz being so much quicker than the walk.

The basket on the front, I now realise the wire thing can be taken off the hooks at the front to make it bigger to go over your rucksack (on Monday I did not know this and crammed my rucksack into the tiny space, thus looking a fool).

The gears are shit in the sense even in 3rd you have to pedal a lot so it is a bit knackering (but not overly so)

Only gutting thing so far was my key didn't work this morning on either of the 2 bikes at the docking station so had to walk to another one.

Assuming they are ironing out glitches (which is part of the point of having it membership only til mid-Sept) it is pretty good on the whole. 

I burned a Merc at the lights and to be fair that was worth a year's membership in itself


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## IMR (Aug 18, 2010)

Friend of mine was very upbeat about it this evening and despite not liking the Barclays branding thinks the London bikes are better than the Parisian ones.


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## Crispy (Aug 18, 2010)

my trip was uneventful, but slower than I would have normally cycled. They really have set the gears to incredibly slow, a bit slow and slow. I'll use it again, anyway, and I saw plenty of other people pootling about on them. Good stuff


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## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2010)

muffins


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## bi0boy (Aug 18, 2010)

I visited London for the day last Monday and went up to a bike place with the intention of using one. There were some French tourists there trying to get bikes also.

Then I read the "bugger off unless you registered online already" sign.

We all left slightly bemused. Surely we should have been able to put our credit cards in the card reader and had the security/deposit/charge/authorise stuff work straight away off of that.


----------



## ddraig (Aug 18, 2010)

wrong thread OU


----------



## Crispy (Aug 18, 2010)

bi0boy said:


> I visited London for the day last Monday and went up to a bike place with the intention of using one. There were some French tourists there trying to get bikes also.
> 
> Then I read the "bugger off unless you registered online already" sign.
> 
> We all left slightly bemused. Surely we should have been able to put our credit cards in the card reader and had the security/deposit/charge/authorise stuff work straight away off of that.




it's still in the "testing" phase
(or the "it's not ready yet but we've got a deadline and Boris is breathing down my back so let's get _soemthing_ going" phase)


----------



## Orang Utan (Aug 18, 2010)

ddraig said:


> wrong thread OU


oops!


----------



## braindancer (Aug 19, 2010)

Apologies if this has already been posted: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyl...ey-puts-the-Boris-bike-through-its-paces.html

Some fairly unawesome stunts on a Boris Bike


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## braindancer (Aug 19, 2010)

I've not seen anyone riding one after dark as yet but the impression I get from seeing them in the day is that while the front light looks adequate the two rear lights look particularly inadequate - they are very low down and I would worry about their visibility.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Aug 19, 2010)

Wolveryeti said:


> Things that annoy me about the cycle hire scheme:
> 1) If you buy more than one key, each time you use one, you get charged an access fee for all of your keys.



OMG have they STILL not fixed this?! How long is this going to go on for?



Wolveryeti said:


> 2) There's a 'cooling off' period after you drop off a bike during which you can't take out any bikes from that block of docking bays, and I don't know how long it is.



WHAT? Who decided on this?! I've never heard that one before.

The whole point of returning within half an hour is so that you can dock, and then undock a bike again and continue to use it for free as many times as you want. This is utterly ridiculous of TFL. And to not even tell you how long the cooling off period is is also stupid.


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## teuchter (Aug 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> OMG have they STILL not fixed this?! How long is this going to go on for?



It's in the T&Cs - it's not unintentional.

It is explained (admittedly not very clearly) on the page where you sign up to multiple keys.


----------



## bi0boy (Aug 19, 2010)

braindancer said:


> I've not seen anyone riding one after dark as yet but the impression I get from seeing them in the day is that while the front light looks adequate the two rear lights look particularly inadequate - they are very low down and I would worry about their visibility.


 
Yes I noticed this. Not sure but the lights don't look bright enough to meet the required 4 candela, the rear ones are also pretty close to the legal minimum height above the road of 35cm.


----------



## 19sixtysix (Aug 19, 2010)

braindancer said:


> I've not seen anyone riding one after dark as yet but the impression I get from seeing them in the day is that while the front light looks adequate the two rear lights look particularly inadequate - they are very low down and I would worry about their visibility.


 
I've been using the bikes after dark on my nightshift lunches. The back light are low but there is one each side so I doubt they can't be seen. Front isn't much use in really dark spots but in central london its never that dark.


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 19, 2010)

teuchter said:


> It's in the T&Cs - it's not unintentional.
> 
> It is explained (admittedly not very clearly) on the page where you sign up to multiple keys.


 
So what's the reasoning behind it?


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## teuchter (Aug 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> So what's the reasoning behind it?


 
I don't know - I'm not TfL

I agree it's a strange arrangement.


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## teuchter (Aug 22, 2010)

I did Mornington Crescent to Oval last night. Would have done it in under half an hour if the first docking station I went to hadn't been full.

I'm not sure whether it really saved any time compared to the night bus but it was quite fun to whistle through central London at 2am.


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## bi0boy (Aug 22, 2010)

teuchter said:


> I did Mornington Crescent to Oval last night. Would have done it in under half an hour if the first docking station I went to hadn't been full.


 
What proportion of the spaces are meant to be empty? Most I have seen have been full or quite full. 

You might conceivably have had to cycle back again and get the bus.


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## Sgt Howie (Aug 23, 2010)

Had a go over the weekend. They're crap bikes but fine for what they are. Can see me using it a couple of times a month.


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## skyscraper101 (Aug 24, 2010)

Lots of people reporting problems again this morning on LBC


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## teuchter (Sep 3, 2010)

If there's not a dedicated bike hire app for your phone ... this website has appeared which is designed to be usable on a mobile browser. Have tried it on mine and it seems to work ok:

http://dockr.co.uk/



> Announcing Dockr.co.uk
> http://dockr.co.uk is a little web app to find your nearest docking stations for the recently launched London Barclays Cycle Hire scheme.
> 
> There’s been a bit of a rush to build apps for the scheme and so I thought I’d have a go and see what happens. It was a challenge combining stuff that interests me: making websites, mobile web, geolocation, bikes and London. So on Tuesday morning I set about building an app and at about 1.3oam on Wednesday I launched Dockr.co.uk.
> ...


http://blog.edeverett.co.uk/2010/08/announcing-dockr-co-uk/


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 6, 2010)

So had my first experience on these bikes on Saturday on two seperate rides.

First one was from Queensway to Haymarket in the afternoon. Negotiating Marble Arch, Oxford Street, Regent Street and Piccadilly Circus along the way. It was ok. A bit heavy for when you need to lift and move the bike off the road. But over all not too bad. The lowest gear is way to light for anything other than starting from still, but it is actually quite useful for all the traffic light stops you need to accelerate from quickly when you've got multiple double decker buses up your arse. Only real complaint about the bikes themselves is the nobbing barclays sign.

Second leg I rode from Haymarket to Kensington Olympia station at night, down Piccadilly, past Green Park, Hyde Park Corner (scary roundabout or scary tunnel - I chose roundabout), Knightsbridge, High St Ken and then Russell Gardens - the furthest west stop. Mnaged both journeys in less than half an hour so both free after the daily deposit. Win.


----------



## editor (Sep 6, 2010)

*I've changed the thread title for accuracy

I've yet to have a go on one of these things but am definitely going to sign up.


----------



## teuchter (Sep 6, 2010)

editor said:


> *I've changed the thread title for accuracy


 
Maybe it should just say "TfL cycle hire scheme in London" so Barclays doesn't get any more advertising than they already have?


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## Orang Utan (Sep 6, 2010)

teuchter said:


> Maybe it should just say "TfL cycle hire scheme in London" so Barclays doesn't get any more advertising than they already have?


 
but it might not bring enough new customers to the site


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## doddles (Sep 7, 2010)

Just got back from Paris where we used Velib a few times, so will be interesting to try out the London one and compare. Impressions of the Paris one were good, except that i) 1/3 times the machine would not accept payment for a day pass, though didn't say why not. We guessed that it had run out of the paper tickets that it prints your number on, and ii) a few times the destination station was full. In the worst case, this resulted in a 45 minute search for a space, passing 8 - yes 8 - full Velib stations before finally finding a place. This last experience was enough to cause us to give up on Velib for the last couple of days when we needed to meet people at certain places and times.


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## Open Sauce (Sep 8, 2010)

doddles said:


> Just got back from Paris where we used Velib a few times, so will be interesting to try out the London one and compare. Impressions of the Paris one were good, except that i) 1/3 times the machine would not accept payment for a day pass, though didn't say why not. We guessed that it had run out of the paper tickets that it prints your number on, and ii) a few times the destination station was full. In the worst case, this resulted in a 45 minute search for a space, passing 8 - yes 8 - full Velib stations before finally finding a place. This last experience was enough to cause us to give up on Velib for the last couple of days when we needed to meet people at certain places and times.


 
Well London is still registered users only. As for full / empty stations, this is obviously still going to be a learning exercise for the operator where it will take some time for things to settle in terms of usage / demand


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## teuchter (Sep 8, 2010)

The full/empty station thing continues to be a problem. I know today was a bit of a special case with the tube strikes but I had to try 4 different places to find one this evening, and 2 to return it.

One thing that could be improved is that when you get to a station and it's full, and you press the button that gives you 15 more minutes to find another one, instead of just giving you a list of nearby stations why can't they be displayed on a map instead? I can't see that it would be difficult technology-wise, seeing as this is possible on some of the mobile phone apps.

A list of docking stations by street name isn't much use if you're in an area you don't know.


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## Placid Casual27 (Sep 8, 2010)

But there is at least one map of the local area on the side of the terminal so you look on that, no?

Even yesterday my Moorgate-Tooley Street return was perfect, no probs


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 8, 2010)

Now that quite a few of us have used these bikes, what's the consensus on the gears?

A lot of people were originally saying how they disliked first gear because it is way too low and useless for going any distance in, but I found it was actually really useful when starting from still - especially at traffic lights when you need to get a bit of speed quickly which is quite difficult in a high gear due to the weight of the bikes. Second and third seemed about right for me, and the interchange was almost flawless.


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## teuchter (Sep 8, 2010)

I agree first gear is actually quite useful, but third is too slow. Maybe that is deliberate, to stop people going too fast on them.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 14, 2010)

Used the bikes again, twice, at the weekend. Each time for a four and a half mile trip from Olympia to Haymarket. Managed each journey in under half an hour so saved over a quid on getting the bus.

The scariest part was negotiating hyde park corner. Battle with five lanes of traffic at the roundabout or brave the diana car crash-esque tunnel that runs underneath to Piccadilly? I went with the roundabout the first time and got the wrong lane so had to nip off to the side and re join it again when there was a break in the traffic. On the way back I braved the tunnel and it was shit scary hearing cars coming up behind you knowing that they could literally smash you into the wall and you'd be dead.

Fortunately I survived both times. Not sure I fancy cycling through the tunnel again though


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 14, 2010)

Speaking of accidents on boris bikes, I note the standard has reported the first serious collision between bike and bus 

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23877858-boris-bike-cyclist-collides-with-bus.do


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## kyser_soze (Sep 14, 2010)

Umm...isn't it illegal to ride a bike through the Hyde Park Underpass? I'd take the roundabout any day.


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## teuchter (Sep 14, 2010)

If you like maps and graphs and whatnot you'll like this:

http://www.oobrien.com/vis/bikes/

More:

http://oliverobrien.co.uk/2010/08/london-cycle-hire-visualisation/


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## Crispy (Sep 14, 2010)

Lovely


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## teuchter (Sep 14, 2010)

[off topic]

This is nice too


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## kyser_soze (Sep 14, 2010)

OO, I like the FedEx one. Has anyone done one for Tesco?


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 14, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Umm...isn't it illegal to ride a bike through the Hyde Park Underpass? I'd take the roundabout any day.


 
Is it? I didn't see any signs, but it did cross my mind.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 14, 2010)

teuchter said:


> If you like maps and graphs and whatnot you'll like this:
> 
> http://www.oobrien.com/vis/bikes/
> 
> ...


 
Here's a video of that map showing bikes flooding into central London in the morning and then vacating in the evening. Pretty sweet.


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## salem (Sep 15, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Speaking of accidents on boris bikes, I note the standard has reported the first serious collision between bike and bus
> 
> http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23877858-boris-bike-cyclist-collides-with-bus.do


 
Hmm, that page seems to have been removed. It's the only reference to the story on Google News that I can find too. I wonder why it's been removed?


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 15, 2010)

Odd. It was apparently around parliament square IIRC.


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## editor (Sep 15, 2010)

I can't wait to have a go!

(My key is in the post)


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## salem (Sep 15, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Odd. It was apparently around parliament square IIRC.


 
And even odder the brief text from that article that's still on google news says "A cyclist using one of the Mayor's hire bikes collided with a double-decker bus near St Paul's Cathedral this morning. The male cyclist, who is believed to"


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## salem (Sep 15, 2010)

.


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## teuchter (Sep 15, 2010)

One thing I am learning from the use of this scheme is that London's cycle lanes are a bit rubbish. Even the 'cycle superhighways' - for example the one going from Kennington to Elephant. Nice blue painted lane all the way down the nice straight road where you don't really need it - next thing you know, it's disappeared and dumped you right onto the E&C roundabout!


----------



## toblerone3 (Sep 15, 2010)

teuchter said:


> One thing I am learning from the use of this scheme is that London's cycle lanes are a bit rubbish. Even the 'cycle superhighways' - for example the one going from Kennington to Elephant. Nice blue painted lane all the way down the nice straight road where you don't really need it - next thing you know, it's disappeared and dumped you right onto the E&C roundabout!



Thats because the route turns off to the left before you reach the Elephant and Castle roundabout.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 17, 2010)

Yesterday morning the rack on Ecclestone Bridge Road was full of bikes. Someone had put stickers on everyone of them, the same colour blue as the Barclays advert, same font in white, stuck just above the word Barclays, simply saying FUCK.

This morning one still had it on.


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## tommers (Sep 17, 2010)

funnily enough we were just discussing this in our office.  Somebody has taken a photo and everything.  Obviously a disgruntled Barclays customer.


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 17, 2010)

tommers said:


> funnily enough we were just discussing this in our office.  Somebody has taken a photo and everything.  Obviously a disgruntled Barclays customer.


 
Ooo...post the photo up.


----------



## tommers (Sep 17, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Ooo...post the photo up.



would do but it's not on my phone.  And the guy has gone out of the office. 

Maybe tomorrow.


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## Kanda (Sep 17, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Ooo...post the photo up.


 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-scheme-anti-Barclays-sticker-campaign.html


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## editor (Sep 17, 2010)

Kanda said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-scheme-anti-Barclays-sticker-campaign.html


There's one sensible reader comment about the "vandalism" from all the usual Daily Mail knee jerking:



> To call this vandalism as though the bikes have been damaged is wrong, particularly when the banks themselves have done so much damage to the country with their continued ripoff practices,and if anything is obscene here its the banks profits at their customers expense, not a tiny little sticker that merely states what millions of people in this country think anyway.


When I take my bike out tomorrow I'll try and find one with the sticker on.


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## editor (Sep 17, 2010)

One question: if I have one key, can I take out two bikes? One website says you can, but there's no mention of it on the official one.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 17, 2010)

this made me lol:
sounds to me it's the work of left-wing loony s , the kind of people who will sit on the M25 to please bob crow. 
- david jamesuk, uk, 17/9/2010 12:06 

You can't sit on the M25 now David. If you scratch your nose, stretch or eat a sarnie, you end up with you face in the DM being told youve broken the law !!
- F, B'ham, 17/9/2010 13:10


and someone else makes a good point about helmets? where are they?


----------



## Lord Camomile (Sep 17, 2010)

Kanda said:


> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...re-scheme-anti-Barclays-sticker-campaign.html






			
				Photo tagline said:
			
		

> The exact scope and meaning of the attack is unclear


_Really_?? I'd say the meaning is pretty clear


----------



## Placid Casual27 (Sep 17, 2010)

I think they didn't issue helemts as they are not compulsory, and they could not design one that would fit everyone. It's pretty easy to carry a helmet with you wherever you go, no?

Dread: do you mean two bikes at the same time? No, don't think so mate. Enjoy them it is well cool. I will be using one to get to Lpl Street before the schlep up to Ipswich


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## braindancer (Sep 17, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Ooo...post the photo up.


 
Some good photos on londonist: http://londonist.com/2010/09/limited-edition_boris_bikes_hit_str.php?gallery0Pic=4#gallery


----------



## teuchter (Sep 17, 2010)

Spotted in my lunchbreak just now


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## editor (Sep 17, 2010)

teuchter said:


> Spotted in my lunchbreak just now


Is that your pic? Can I use it on my blog, please? Has anyone else got any others (preferably bigger if poss)


----------



## teuchter (Sep 17, 2010)

editor said:


> Is that your pic? Can I use it on my blog, please? Has anyone else got any others (preferably bigger if poss)


 
Yes, took it just half an hour ago in Hyde Park. Bigger version here


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 17, 2010)

I had an idea to do something like that (but better, tbf) and I was accused of being a teenager.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

I know it's probably mentioned but this thread is 27 pages long.

Anyhoo, what about the helmets?  Do you have to carry one around on the off chance you want to use one of these bikes?


----------



## Crispy (Sep 19, 2010)

Cycle helmets are not compulsory


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Cycle helmets are not compulsory


 
But they do help in you not being killed while hit by a car/taxi/bendy bus.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 19, 2010)

Couple more barclays stickers here:

http://youcanstickit.blogspot.com/


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## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

I used the bikes yesterday to catch up with the Pope protest. It's an absolutely fabulous idea.


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## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> But they do help in you not being killed while hit by a car/taxi/bendy bus.


Then bring your own helmet along.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Then bring your own helmet along.


 
This was my point.

Are you supposed to walk around all day with a helmet all day on the off chance you need use one of these bikes - or are us and tourists supposed to take our lives in our own hands helmetleness against HGV's and Bendy buses?


----------



## Sgt Howie (Sep 19, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> Used the bikes again, twice, at the weekend. Each time for a four and a half mile trip from Olympia to Haymarket. Managed each journey in under half an hour so saved over a quid on getting the bus.
> 
> The scariest part was negotiating hyde park corner. Battle with five lanes of traffic at the roundabout or brave the diana car crash-esque tunnel that runs underneath to Piccadilly? I went with the roundabout the first time and got the wrong lane so had to nip off to the side and re join it again when there was a break in the traffic. On the way back I braved the tunnel and it was shit scary hearing cars coming up behind you knowing that they could literally smash you into the wall and you'd be dead.
> 
> Fortunately I survived both times. Not sure I fancy cycling through the tunnel again though


 
Went round that roundabout on a Boris bike today, got honked to fuck by a load of taxis. It's Sunday ffs


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> This was my point.
> 
> Are you supposed to walk around all day with a helmet all day on the off chance you need use one of these bikes - or are us and tourists supposed to take our lives in our own hands helmetleness against HGV's and Bendy buses?


Cycling without a helmet is not "taking your life in your own hand," but if you're that concerned, then you are perfectly at liberty to wear your own helmet, or not use the service.

I've got no interest in wearing a helmet for short cross town trips and forcing people to wear one would be hugely problematic.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2010)

It's a reasonable point, though. Someone else posted about the hairy experience of cycling around Hyde Park Corner. I've only cycled it once, and decided I would not do it again. 

This is a great scheme, advertising a cunty bank notwithsanding, but it is not enough. London remains, generally, a poor city to cycle around. 

Some of the cycle lanes are worse than useless. The really narrow ones on certain busy roads (around Catford, for instance, but there are lots of them) force cyclists right into the gutter and encourage motorists to think that they can drive past them without slowing down at all. I'd prefer no cycle lane at all to a lane that's too narrow – that way, I can cycle a bit further out into the road and make motorists take notice of me.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> It's a reasonable point, though. Someone else posted about the hairy experience of cycling around Hyde Park Corner. I've only cycled it once, and decided I would not do it again.


Then the common sense answer is to only use the bikes for the routes you're comfortable to cycle along and walk/get public transport for the rest.


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Then the common sense answer is to only use the bikes for the routes you're comfortable to cycle along and walk/get public transport for the rest.



If you know what those routes are in advance!


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Cycling without a helmet is not "taking your life in your own hand,"


 
Shall we run a sweepstake on the date of the first lawsuit as someone was severely brain damaged due to no helmets being provided?


----------



## littlebabyjesus (Sep 19, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Shall we run a sweepstake on the date of the first lawsuit as someone was severely brain damaged due to no helmets being provided?



Given that there is no legal requirement to wear a helmet, that lawsuit will lose.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

editor said:


> Then the common sense answer is to only use the bikes for the routes you're comfortable to cycle along and walk/get public transport for the rest.


 
And find a docking point and then get a bus?

Why not just get the bus in the first place?


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 19, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Given that there is no legal requirement to wear a helmet, that lawsuit will lose.


 
Well then that is idiocy, you have to wear a seat belt in a car.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> And find a docking point and then get a bus?
> 
> Why not just get the bus in the first place?


That's certainly your choice - no one's forcing you to use them and if you feel uncomfortable or unsafe without a helmet - and can't be arsed to carry one around, - then it's clearly not for you.

Seeing as there is no legal compulsion to wear a helmet when cycling, I see no reason why the bike hire scheme should be burdened with such a restriction too.


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Well then that is idiocy, you have to wear a seat belt in a car.


How are the two linked?

Forcing cyclists to wear helmets would see a dramatic reduction in people using bikes, and most likely see an increase in traffic, congestion and pollution and - quite possibly - _more_ accidents.

The bike hire scheme is all about encouraging people to ride more and about offering attractive alternatives to traffic-clogged inner cities. The more car drivers that ride the bikes, the more they'll become aware of cyclists when they're driving.

Besides, the case for wearing helmets isn't exactly clear cut:





> By wearing helmets, cyclists are at best only marginally reducing their chances of being fatally or seriously injured in a collision with a motor vehicle which is the predominant cause of these injuries. Even the most expensive ones provide little protection in these circumstances. Moreover, the argument in favour of helmets would have validity if there were proof that behaviour does not change in response to perceived risk. But there is no such proof. Safety devices encourage higher levels of risk-taking. As a result, cyclists are likely to ride less cautiously when wearing a helmet owing to their feeling of increased security. After all, the message of the advocates of helmet wearing is that such a practice will protect the cyclist's head adequately in the event of any accident, not just a minor one when cyclists are hit by very slow-moving vehicles or fall off and hit their heads on the ground. Cyclists may be less likely to have an accident if they are not wearing a helmet, and are therefore riding with greater care owing to an enhanced sense of their vulnerability.
> 
> Furthermore, people are discouraged from cycling if their perception is heightened that it is a 'dangerous' form of travel and that it is only safe to do so if a helmet is worn. The result of this is that the considerable latent demand for cycling - an ideal mode for the majority of the population for most of their journeys - continues to be suppressed. As cycling is also a convenient and routine way of maintaining fitness, a significant route to public health is prejudiced.
> 
> ...


----------



## editor (Sep 19, 2010)

And...


> Legal evidence
> Solicitors who specialise in cyclist injuries have written that, in their experience, the use of cycle helmets has not reduced the likelihood of serious injury [28] [29] [30]. In the UK, the courts have so far not supported claims that wearing a helmet would have made any difference to injuries suffered by cyclists in the cases they have considered. Senior neuro-surgeons have given evidence that cycle helmets afford very limited head protection that would make no significant difference in cases involving serious injury [28]. Experience suggests that doctors are much more cautious in their assessment of cycle helmets when they give evidence on oath and are subject to cross-examination and the high standards of evidence required by the courts.
> 
> Helmet mechanics
> ...


----------



## Sunray (Sep 19, 2010)

The made them compulsory in Australia in 1990 and its done nothing but reduce the number of people that use bikes.  

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/

Its 20 years now, the facts are in and its pretty much done and dusted that its done nothing for rider safety, actually making it less safe and reduces the number of people cycling.

Decent cycle lanes would make a difference,  not making people ride with helmets.


----------



## snowy_again (Sep 20, 2010)

Can we have the cycle helmet debate on some other thread that I don't have to look into please!


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> Can we have the cycle helmet debate on some other thread that I don't have to look into please!


I think we've put that particular strawman to bed now.

I can't wait to have another spin on the bikes!


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 20, 2010)

Sunray said:


> Decent cycle lanes would make a difference,  not making people ride with helmets.


 
I'm inclined to agree.

What annoys me about the cycle lanes I've seen here compared to ones in Holland is that they're not physically separated from the traffic. There's just a marked line which motorists can easily impede on. I understand that we have space restrictions on roads which weren't originally designed with bicycle lanes in mind, however, I don't see it being a massive inconvenience to at least put a rumble strip as a separating marker. That way, it is more obvious that a motorist shouldn't cross into the lane unless absolutely necessary. And there is a bit of added protection for the cyclist.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> That's certainly your choice - no one's forcing you to use them and if you feel uncomfortable or unsafe without a helmet - and can't be arsed to carry one around, - then it's clearly not for you.
> 
> Seeing as there is no legal compulsion to wear a helmet when cycling, I see no reason why the bike hire scheme should be burdened with such a restriction too.


 
i do think it is a shame that cycling helmets aren't available, practical considerations aside. i thought the scheme was intended to be attractive to tourists, not just locals with knowledge of the roads.


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i do think it is a shame that cycling helmets aren't available, practical considerations aside. i thought the scheme was intended to be attractive to tourists, not just locals with knowledge of the roads.


Perhaps there's an entrepreneurial niche for someone to set up shop selling them if you think there's the demand?

I'm not sure how the absence of helmets makes it so unattractive myself - when we were in Holland, we barely saw anyone wearing one, and *everyone* cycles there.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> Perhaps there's an entrepreneurial niche for someone to set up shop selling them if you think there's the demand?
> 
> I'm not sure how the absence of helmets makes it so unattractive myself - when we were in Holland, we barely saw anyone wearing one, and *everyone* cycles there.


 
You don't need a helmet in Holland because the cycle lanes are so good. And the cyclist is king there – any motorist who knocks over a cyclist faces a looooong time in jail, and there is always a presumption that it is the motorist's fault in any accident.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> Perhaps there's an entrepreneurial niche for someone to set up shop selling them if you think there's the demand?
> 
> I'm not sure how the absence of helmets makes it so unattractive myself - when we were in Holland, we barely saw anyone wearing one, and *everyone* cycles there.


 you can't expect a tourist to buy a helmet just so he can feel safe clattering down park lane.
it would be nice to be able to hire them as well as the bike, though i can see how it might be impossible to run such a scheme.


----------



## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> you can't expect a tourist to buy a helmet just so he can feel safe clattering down park lane.
> it would be nice to be able to hire them as well as the bike, though i can see how it might be impossible to run such a scheme.


I wouldn't expect a tourist to go clattering along Park Lane to be honest - I would have thought they'd rather go through Hyde Park, myself.

Have you actually ridden one of these bikes, btw? They're built like tanks and it's quite a different experience to pedalling along on a racer.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I wouldn't expect a tourist to go clattering along Park Lane to be honest - I would have thought they'd rather go through Hyde Park, myself.
> 
> Have you actually ridden one of these bikes, btw? They're built like tanks and it's quite a different experience to pedalling along on a racer.


 
no, i have a bike already, so i doubt i'll ever use one. ugly things.
anyway, the bike may be built like a tank, but unfortunately our soft pulpy heads aren't.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> You don't need a helmet in Holland because the cycle lanes are so good. And the cyclist is king there – any motorist who knocks over a cyclist faces a looooong time in jail, and there is always a presumption that it is the motorist's fault in any accident.


 
Yes, because the cycle paths in Holland are made out of soft squidgy material that means if you fall off your bike you won't injure your head...

I'm very anti-helmet FWIW, and thoroughly approve of the lack of them on the Boris bikes.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

how can you be 'anti-helmet'?  
i can see how you may choose not to wear one, but...


----------



## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

Turn of phrase. I will adopt a 'They're worthless' stance during arguments about them with Aussie mates.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

tell that to my braindamaged friend who got hit by a lorry and landed on his head. he wasn't wearing one.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

If the notes in the post above are correct, it wouldn't have made any difference anyway, since they only work in low speed, low impact injuries.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

quite, this was exactly that. i'd imagine many cycling accidents are low speed/low impact.


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 20, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> Yes, because the cycle paths in Holland are made out of soft squidgy material that means if you fall off your bike you won't injure your head...


 Why do people fall off their bikes? 

The only time I've come off my bike since the age of about five is because a car has been trying to run me over. 

Hence, with proper cycle lanes and a properly pro-bicycle culture, far fewer people fall off their bikes, and when they do, they are less likely to hit their heads as they won't have been hit by a car. 

Have a  back.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

i don't want cycling lanes in london, i want safer traffic/roads to cycle in/on.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why do people fall off their bikes?
> 
> The only time I've come off my bike since the age of about five is because a car has been trying to run me over.
> 
> ...


 
Do you commute in London? I see plenty of people wobbling around on bikes they can barely ride. Look there. 

Altho I'm against helmets, I agree with OU on mixed use roads. I don't want segregated travel (and lets face it, anyone who rides with any pace would still be using the roads), I want a properly integrated system which is based on the sliding scale of size of road user (subject to an idiocy clause).


----------



## snowy_again (Sep 20, 2010)

Given the range of sizes and shapes of people's heads, providing them with Kencycles isn't really an option. They're fragile and damage easily. 

I see enough people riding around with badly fitting helmets, or ones on backwards, or one with the strap hanging loose, or unconnected, to think that people would be able to select an appropriately fitting one, or to wear it correctly. 

Besides, whilst not wanting to get into a helmet pointless debate, the majority of cyclist injuries in serious accidents is squashing of bodies, not heads, unless they act as some sort of magic halo?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 20, 2010)

kyser_soze said:


> I don't want segregated travel (and lets face it, anyone who rides with any pace would still be using the roads), I want a properly integrated system which is based on the sliding scale of size of road user (subject to an idiocy clause).



What do you have against segregated travel? I would feel much safer with a dutch style cycle lane to cycle in personally.

(Not that I have anything against those who want to join in with the traffic at speed either)


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> What do you have against segregated travel? I would feel much safer with a dutch style cycle lane to cycle in personally.
> 
> (Not that I have anything against those who want to join in with the traffic at speed either)


ime cycle lanes are too slow if you use your bike to keep fit as well as commute. i don't have any experience of these dutch-style cycle lanes so maybe they are different to british ones, but looking at, say, the one that goes over chelsea bridge, they're next to worthless if you want to ride safely faster than 10 miles per hour.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

skyscraper101 said:


> What do you have against segregated travel? I would feel much safer with a dutch style cycle lane to cycle in personally.
> 
> (Not that I have anything against those who want to join in with the traffic at speed either)


 
It doesn't help either cyclist or driver. Cyclists can behave like they're in a risk-free environment, so can cars. A more fitting, and properly enforced, set of punishments for road users (and I include cyclists in this) coupled with mixed-use roads would teach both groups to behave better, and doing so without having to spend truckloads building separated lanes and the rest of the infrastructure required. I despair of the number of people who I see riding who literally never bother looking behind them, for example.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Sep 20, 2010)

But for those who want to travel safely or leisurely, they're great no? People who want to get places at speed could always just join the road too.

EDIT: that was in reply to OU (boards being really slow at the moment). Kyser, I take your point about people assuming risk free status and acting like idiots.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

oh right, so in holland, people aren't compelled to use cycle lanes then?


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## skyscraper101 (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm not sure if its compulsory there.

I'd favour the choice between lane or road though. I think it would be unfair to compel cycle couriers or speedy types to share a slow lane with others, but I think it would encourage more people onto bikes if we had a segregated lane - even if, as I've suggested it be done with a rumble strip, or raised marker. Just something that acts as more of a defining line than, a painted line.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

in my experience so far, on-road cycle lanes are actually quite helpful, but only as an indication where NOT to cycle. cycle outside it and you'll be fine. cycle inside and you'll ride over some glass or a pothole or get overtaken just a little too close for comfort. i'm not sure a bump would help.


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## kyser_soze (Sep 20, 2010)

Yeah. Removing ironworks from anywhere near the kerb would be nice, as would an effective programme of road laying and maintainance.


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> no, i have a bike already, so i doubt i'll ever use one. ugly things.
> anyway, the bike may be built like a tank, but unfortunately our soft pulpy heads aren't.


And compulsory helmets would most likely make no difference at all safety-wide and would only succeed in making _less_ people use the bikes, thus rendering the entire cycle hire scheme a waste of time and money -  so what's your point here?

You've said you're not interested in usng them anyway, so what's your beef?


----------



## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> oh right, so in holland, people aren't compelled to use cycle lanes then?


You can blame the Nazis for that one.


> WWII: Use of cycle tracks made compulsory in Netherlands, under Nazi occupation.



If only we shook of our raging car-uber-alles culture, we might end up with something as good as what they've got. 
http://www.cycletourer.co.uk/cycletouring/holland.shtml


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> And compulsory helmets would most likely make no difference at all safety-wide and would only succeed in making _less_ people use the bikes, thus rendering the entire cycle hire scheme a waste of time and money -  so what's your point here?
> 
> You've said you're not interested in usng them anyway, so what's your beef?


 i have no beef, they're just not for me as i have a perfectly good bike already


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i have no beef, they're just not for me as i have a perfectly good bike already


I have as well, but that's not really what the scheme is trying to replace.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> I have as well, but that's not really what the scheme is trying to replace.


i would have thought it was for tourists and bikeless people who want another way of getting round town


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> i would have thought it was for tourists and bikeless people who want another way of getting round town


It's equally designed for cyclists who don't want to/can't take their bikes into town, or for people who just need a bike for a quick hop around town, perhaps to a business meeting or for some shopping or to grab a coffee or whatever.

It's all about short term hops, not traditional bike hire.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

hmmmm


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> hmmmm


Just look at the pricing if you don't believe me:



> Up to 30 minutes
> FREE
> 
> Up to an hour
> ...


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

fuck me!


----------



## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

I like the itemised bills you get:


> 18 Sep 2010
> 15:51 	18 Sep 2010
> 16:05 	Panton Street, West End  -	Endsleigh Gardens, Euston 	Hire 	£0.00
> 
> ...


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

wow, fair enough, still can't imagine ever wanting to use one still, but that's just me


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## PacificOcean (Sep 20, 2010)

So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


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## Cobbles (Sep 20, 2010)

littlebabyjesus said:


> Why do people fall off their bikes?



Poorly maintained road surfaces with protruding manhole covers slick with bus diesel exhaust dribblings.

Oh, and tramlines - a nineteenth century abomination that can be brought back into play by a vain Labour Council.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8400094.stm

_"Cyclists are to be given classes on how to navigate Edinburgh's roads after tram tracks were unveiled in the city centre.

The move follows reports of six accidents on Princes Street since the road was reopened with new tram lines just over a week ago."_


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

well, lots of people seem to be enjoying using them, so let em have their fun


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> wow, fair enough, still can't imagine ever wanting to use one still, but that's just me


I wasn't sure what I thought of them until I tried them out on Saturday and loved the sense of freedom. I was trying to find the Pope Protest march and could see helicopters in the distance, so hopped on a bike and rode to the march, and put the bike in a rack.

Then when I wanted to get up to Kings Cross, I grabbed another bike and took a pleasant ride north, all for free. It's a brilliant scheme.


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


Tens of thousands of people already safely cycle "with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic" every day, and your tabloid style sensationalism is a little weird to be honest. 

Have you ever ridden one of these bikes? When was the last time you cycled through central London? Apart from a few major roads, it's hardly a heaving mass of rabid HGVs.



Cobbles said:


> Poorly maintained road surfaces with protruding manhole covers slick with bus diesel exhaust dribblings.
> 
> Oh, and tramlines - a nineteenth century abomination that can be brought back into play by a vain Labour Council.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/edinburgh_and_east/8400094.stm


Oh for fuck's sake. Mr Bike-Hating Irrelevant is back banging on about fucking Edinburgh again.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


 
I used to do the safety checks whilst working in maintenance at Thorpe Park. I'd often come in tripping my tits off...


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## PacificOcean (Sep 20, 2010)

editor said:


> Tens of thousands of people already safely cycle "with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic" every day, and your tabloid style sensationalism is a little weird to be honest.
> 
> Have you ever ridden one of these bikes? When was the last time you cycled through central London? Apart from a few major roads, it's hardly a heavy mass of rabid HGVs.
> 
> :


 
Oh come on - when was the last time you watched BBC London news without a cheery "and finally" piece about some experienced cyclist being decapitated by a 25?

Add to the mixture the people who probably haven't rode a bike since six and tourists where they drive on the right - all without a helmet.

I give this two months before someone is killed.


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## PacificOcean (Sep 20, 2010)

.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 20, 2010)

And OU, they work great for me. I work in Victoria, but in the mornings my train goes fast in to Waterloo, meaning 3 trains to get to Victoria. So I giot a fold up bike to get from Waterloo to work.

Then I got hit by a lorry, without a helmet, *shock.horror*. Once my arm & ribs had healed I was back to folding up, but it's a pain to have to take it on busy trains and for the return journey trains stop at Clapham to whick me home, so it's quick to train it all the way.

So the bike hire scheme works great for me, a 15 minute ride from Waterloo in the morning and all for £45 a year.

Sure they're not fast bikes, but there's nowt wrong with them as such and it's quite a novel experience to potter along the roads.


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## Bahnhof Strasse (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Oh come on - when was the last time you watched BBC London news without a cheery "and finally" piece about some experienced cyclist being decapitated by a 25?
> 
> Add to the mixture the people who probably haven't rode a bike since six and tourists where they drive on the right - all without a helmet.
> 
> I give this two months before someone is killed.




I'm not a medic, and I'm happy for a doctor to correct me on this; but I'm fairly sure that when you are decapitated, the bump your head takes as it falls to the ground is not the greatest of your worries.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Oh come on - when was the last time you watched BBC London news without a cheery "and finally" piece about some experienced cyclist being decapitated by a 25?


 er...i've never seen a london news with that item. you really are hysterical. get some perspective.


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## editor (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Oh come on - when was the last time you watched BBC London news without a cheery "and finally" piece about some experienced cyclist being decapitated by a 25?


I'm having trouble thinking of any recent cyclist decapitations, to be honest. Could you provide some examples? And were they wearing a helmet at the time?



Bahnhof Strasse said:


> I'm not a medic, and I'm happy for a doctor to correct me on this; but I'm fairly sure that when you are decapitated, the bump your head takes as it falls to the ground is not the greatest of your worries.


Indeed. It's an idiotic, sensationalist argument that flies in the face of all the medical evidence and studies that has been posted thus far. 

Sadly, I've no doubt that sooner or later someone will get killed riding one of these bikes - it's a risk all cyclists take in big cities, helmet or not - but, I haven't seen any massive rise in deaths since the scheme started.

Besides, most inexperienced cyclists are hardly likely to take to the main streets - I imagine most will just pootle along the south bank/Soho/ Covent Garden and through parks etc, etc.


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## Orang Utan (Sep 20, 2010)

i'm nor sure if a helmet would prevent decapitation unless it was a vader mask made of steel or something


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## Open Sauce (Sep 20, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


 
Straw man, millions of people get into cars daily without safety checks on their cars or their own well being, resulting in about 2500 deaths a year in Britain.


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## Open Sauce (Sep 20, 2010)

x


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## FunkyUK (Sep 21, 2010)

I live out in the sticks in Hertfordshire, and can't be arsed to lug a bike (folding or otherwise) down to london on the train in rush hour, so the hire bijkes are ideal for me.  Stonking value at £45 a year, (kings cross to St pauls, 12 mins) and i don't have to traipse up and down to the underground, and cram onto a tube at KX.  I use the bikes to pop to shops / meet friends for lunch etc,  and can't imaigne ever needing to rent for more tnan 30 mins at a time.  Fucking awesome TFL.


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## Crispy (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


 
You know what's even worse? Every day, literally _millions_ of people walk on hard, head-damaging surfaces, mere inches away from many tonnes of moving metal, all controlled by flawed humans who most likely are not skillful enough. And, get this, _no safety equipment is provided_. It's scandalous, I tell you.


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## editor (Sep 21, 2010)

I've done a little feature (and used your quote funky - hope that's OK!): http://www.urban75.org/blog/we-salute-the-london-tflbarclays-cycle-hire-scheme/



Crispy said:


> You know what's even worse? Every day, literally _millions_ of people walk on hard, head-damaging surfaces, mere inches away from many tonnes of moving metal, all controlled by flawed humans who most likely are not skillful enough. And, get this, _no safety equipment is provided_. It's scandalous, I tell you.


You can't be serious?  There must be decapitations all over the place.


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2010)

What are the expansion plans / proposed times on these? 
I would like to see more of this caper filling the city zone by zone. 

Just sorting out our membership this week


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## ozzage (Sep 21, 2010)

I love these bikes.  I joined up early and use them one or two days a week on average - not massively.  Sometimes after work I take one part-way home before jumping on the tube just to get some air and movement.

On the weekends if we're in central London my g/f I use them to just explore, or to get to specific places where we might have otherwise walked or taken the bus/tube.

Best of all for me though, is that having become confident riding in central London thanks to the hire bikes, I've now commuted twice from home on my own bike (2nd time today) which I would never have even considered otherwise and find myself generally using my bike much more even in my local area.  Somehow the Boris Bikes have been a catalyst for me to rediscover the joy of being on a bike!


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## Crispy (Sep 21, 2010)

ozzage said:


> I love these bikes.  I joined up early and use them one or two days a week on average - not massively.  Sometimes after work I take one part-way home before jumping on the tube just to get some air and movement.
> 
> On the weekends if we're in central London my g/f I use them to just explore, or to get to specific places where we might have otherwise walked or taken the bus/tube.
> 
> Best of all for me though, is that having become confident riding in central London thanks to the hire bikes, I've now commuted twice from home on my own bike (2nd time today) which I would never have even considered otherwise and find myself generally using my bike much more even in my local area.  Somehow the Boris Bikes have been a catalyst for me to rediscover the joy of being on a bike!


 
Awesome 

A hard-boiled cynic might even think you were being paid to praise the system so highly, but IMO, I think it's just as fantastic as you make it out


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## Black Halo (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> I give this two months before someone is killed.


It has almost been two months (9 days left) already, I can't see your prediction being fulfilled to be honest.

I also am unaware of these "cheery" pieces discussing the decapitation of a cyclist, maybe I haven;' been paying enough attention though


----------



## Badgers (Sep 21, 2010)

Would a motorist give these things a bit of a wide berth? 
Given the press attention, the bright blue colour and such? 
Probably not but do you think it makes a difference?


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## littlebabyjesus (Sep 21, 2010)

Black Halo said:


> It has almost been two months (9 days left) already, I can't see your prediction being fulfilled to be honest.
> 
> I also am unaware of these "cheery" pieces discussing the decapitation of a cyclist, maybe I haven;' been paying enough attention though


 
Ban roads, I say. Ten people per day are killed on Britain's roads, which are maintained by the State!


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## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

ozzage said:


> I love these bikes.  I joined up early and use them one or two days a week on average - not massively.  Sometimes after work I take one part-way home before jumping on the tube just to get some air and movement.
> 
> On the weekends if we're in central London my g/f I use them to just explore, or to get to specific places where we might have otherwise walked or taken the bus/tube.
> 
> Best of all for me though, is that having become confident riding in central London thanks to the hire bikes, I've now commuted twice from home on my own bike (2nd time today) which I would never have even considered otherwise and find myself generally using my bike much more even in my local area.  Somehow the Boris Bikes have been a catalyst for me to rediscover the joy of being on a bike!


 
Does't it fuck your suit up though?


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

Black Halo said:


> It has almost been two months (9 days left) already, I can't see your prediction being fulfilled to be honest.
> 
> I also am unaware of these "cheery" pieces discussing the decapitation of a cyclist, maybe I haven;' been paying enough attention though


 
Maybe I was being flippant.

But if you throw tourists, non bike riders, and the general public in the mix of London roads, no helmets and bikes... Can I change my estimate?

As you have to jump through hoops to register, then it's only people who know how to ride bikes and can be arsed registering - if they realise the point of the scheme and anyone can turn up and use them - I give it one week from then.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

...


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Maybe I was being flippant.
> 
> But if you throw tourists, non bike riders, and the general public in the mix of London roads, no helmets and bikes... Can I change my estimate?
> 
> As you have to jump through hoops to register, then it's only people who know how to ride bikes and can be arsed registering - if they realise the point of the scheme and anyone can turn up and use them - I give it one week from then.


How will a helmet protect a cyclist from decapitation? How many deaths have there been on London's streets in the last year that would definitely have been saved if the rider had been wearing a helmet?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2010)

knowing how to ride a bike is 'jumping through hoops' is it?


----------



## Termite Man (Sep 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> knowing how to ride a bike is 'jumping through hoops' is it?



it is if your a stunt bike rider . Sometimes the hoops are even set on fire .


----------



## snowy_again (Sep 21, 2010)

Or you're wearing a flaming suit. That might be a bit dangerous in an office though.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

editor said:


> How will a helmet protect a cyclist from decapitation? How many deaths have there been on London's streets in the last year that would definitely have been saved if the rider had been wearing a helmet?


 
"Maybe I was being flippant"

- Pacific Ocean


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> knowing how to ride a bike is 'jumping through hoops' is it?


 
No, to register is though.

Did you even bother to read my post before jumping in and starting?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> No, to register is though.
> 
> Did you even bother to read my post before jumping in and starting?


 yes, i did, it was all bollocks. so hard to separate one bit of crap from the other.


----------



## salem (Sep 21, 2010)

Interestingly that accident being reported last week appears to have been just someone toppling off their bike rather then the initial over zealous (and since retracted) reports of someone being hit by a bus.

So we've gone almost 2 months and over half a million journeys have been made without any major incident. That's better then I expected to be honest.

It's inevitable that someone will be seriously injured or killed at some point but then being a pedestrian is pretty dangerous too and people are seriously injured or killed every day walking to work.


----------



## strung out (Sep 21, 2010)

of course, what they should be looking at is the figures for accidents on bikes normally and the figures for people riding these hire bikes. that would give a far better indication of exactly how much attention they should be paying to the safety of boris bike users.


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

Orang Utan said:


> yes, i did, it was all bollocks. so hard to separate one bit of crap from the other.



Much like your own posts then - you flipflop more than a Mancunian on holiday in Malaga.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> "Maybe I was being flippant"
> 
> - Pacific Ocean


So what actual facts have you got to support your hysterical arguments here? Anything?


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

editor said:


> So what actual facts have you got to support your hysterical arguments here? Anything?


 
Well watching BBC London, and from even this board where a cyclist and popular poster was killed.


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Well watching BBC London, and from even this board where a cyclist and popular poster was killed.


Was he riding a Barclays bike at the time and would a helmet have definitely saved his life?

Unless the answer to both questions in yes, you're just posting up reactionary, irrelevant nonsense.


----------



## rover07 (Sep 21, 2010)

Have any been stolen yet?

And if not ...WHY NOT?


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

salem said:


> It's inevitable that someone will be seriously injured or killed at some point but then being a pedestrian is pretty dangerous too and people are seriously injured or killed every day walking to work.


 
By what?


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 21, 2010)

editor said:


> Was he riding a Barclays bike at the time and would a helmet have definitely saved his life?
> 
> Unless the answer to both questions in yes, you're just posting up reactionary, irrelevant nonsense.


 
Well do you *not* think wearing a helmet would have saved his/her life?

Have you have evidence?


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Much like your own posts then - you flipflop more than a Mancunian on holiday in Malaga.


 
you're rubbish at arguing.


----------



## Orang Utan (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> By what?


 
traffic


----------



## editor (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Well do you *not* think wearing a helmet would have saved his/her life?
> 
> Have you have evidence?


You're really rubbish at this. 

Who is this deceased person you're talking about?
Were they riding a TFL bike? Did they have a helmet on or not? What did they die of?

If their internal organs were squashed by a HGV I'm  pretty sure a helmet wouldn't have been much use... and then there's all that general research about the disputed effectiveness of helmets that was posted up earlier to consider..


----------



## Open Sauce (Sep 21, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Well do you *not* think wearing a helmet would have saved his/her life?
> 
> Have you have evidence?


 
Why do you think a helmet would make any difference? Have you read any studies or is it "obvious"?


----------



## ozzage (Sep 21, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Awesome
> 
> A hard-boiled cynic might even think you were being paid to praise the system so highly, but IMO, I think it's just as fantastic as you make it out


 
yes I can see it might look like that but no you're right I just love them - as well as my own bike!  To be fair I did get a new bike (2 months ago) so that's probably helping my current bike-love too as my old one wasn't the best.

As for my suit for the other poster I don't always wear one being lucky enough to be in IT but I haven't noticed any wear on anything.  Millions of people ride bikes daily in other countries in normal clothes without any major issues so I can't really see how it can be such a disaster!


----------



## Sgt Howie (Sep 22, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> So, Thorpe Park have to go on safety checks every morning, just for the one in million chance that there may be a defect -but TFL are giving bikes away to Londoners and tourists as long as your credit card can afford it, with no helmets against HGVs and frantically, manic London traffic - I don't see how this is a good idea?


 
You've got a lot of faith in a flimsy piece of plastic and foam if you think helmets are that essential.

It's pretty straightforward. I cycle regularly so I have no qualms about going up Park Lane on a boris bike on the occasions when I hire one. Most people feel otherwise so they'll stick to pottering about the back streets of Fitzrovia and Mayfair.


----------



## FunkyUK (Sep 22, 2010)

I've been impressed with the redistribution of the bikes too.  Especially at Kings Cross.   When I arrive at KX in the evening there's a team of Serco? employees undocking the bikes as soon as they are docked to free up space, and in the mornings, as the demand is high, they are restocking the docks from a removals-type truck as quickly as the bikes are being undocked, so there are bikes for all.    .......and this morning, I wasn't even decapitated once


----------



## deadringer (Sep 23, 2010)

FunkyUK said:


> I've been impressed with the redistribution of the bikes too.  Especially at Kings Cross.   When I arrive at KX in the evening there's a team of Serco? employees undocking the bikes as soon as they are docked to free up space, and in the mornings, as the demand is high, they are restocking the docks from a removals-type truck as quickly as the bikes are being undocked, so there are bikes for all.    .......*and this morning, I wasn't even decapitated once*



you must have been wearing a helmet!


----------



## PacificOcean (Sep 23, 2010)

deadringer said:


> you must have been wearing a helmet!


 
Fuck off the lot of you.  I just tried to bring up a serious point, that may have been wrapped in emotive language, but a serious point none the less. 

I have been on these boards for six odd years and at first I could spend a whole afternoon at work killing time on here, but as the two twats above proves, no wonder all the good posters have left.  I read U75 for about five minutes now.

I rescinded my comment, yet, they still poke fun.

Bollocks - the internet is supposed to be an enjoyable distraction - why do people take BB boards so seriously?  Maybe get some mates? 

* Flounces* (I think is the term).


----------



## editor (Sep 24, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Bollocks - the internet is supposed to be an enjoyable distraction - why do people take BB boards so seriously?  Maybe get some mates?
> 
> * Flounces* (I think is the term).


Jeez. And you accuse others of taking things too seriously? You made a bit of an arse of yourself on this thread and got called up on it, that's all. 

If you're too thin-skinned to take the mild rebukes you got here in exchange for your daft posts, perhaps you'd best stick to status updates on Facebook.


----------



## Sgt Howie (Sep 24, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> Fuck off the lot of you.  I just tried to bring up a serious point, that may have been wrapped in emotive language, but a serious point none the less.
> 
> I have been on these boards for six odd years and at first I could spend a whole afternoon at work killing time on here, but as the two twats above proves, no wonder all the good posters have left.  I read U75 for about five minutes now.
> 
> ...


 
Maybe you could wear a helmet next time you go online?


----------



## doddles (Sep 24, 2010)

Sgt Howie said:


> Maybe you could wear a helmet next time you go online?


 
I think we should all be wearing helmets most of the time. e.g. Car drivers suffer far more head injuries than cyclists, so they should probably be wearing helmets.


----------



## salem (Sep 24, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> By what?


 
Well by anything.People are injured or killed by many things. If the scheme is going to be used for millions of journeys then people will inevitably be injured or killed in time.

It may be that you are right and the lack of helmets and the number of people who are injured/killed is disproportionate to general cycling or other methods of transport. So far it doesn't seem that way but there haven't really been enough journeys to say for sure.

I remember seeing a breakdown of accident stats for various modes of transport which showed walking as more dangerous than cycling. I can't find it now though so take that with a pinch of salt. The point was that people get run over every day, it's possible that if pedestrians wore a helmet then the number of fatalities of pedestrians would fall. But in the grand scheme of things not that many pedestrians are killed and we don't bother wearing helmets as a result. I personally feel the same way about cycling, I don't wear a helmet because I don't think it's worth the hassle even though it would make me more likely to survive an accident.


----------



## joustmaster (Sep 25, 2010)

I used a cycle hire cycle for the first time last night. I used it in the way they were designed - drunk, at night, without a helmet, and laughing manicly. 

they work well for what they are. the gearing leaves you wanting a bit more on flats and down hill though.


unfortunately I had a bit of a problem and my head came clean off my body.


----------



## deadringer (Sep 25, 2010)

decapitated? oh no.




not _another_ one


----------



## editor (Sep 25, 2010)

Tip: if you're cycling into Soho on a Saturday afternoon, don's do it with two minutes left of your 30 mins hire, expecting to instantly find a slot!

I took a couple of bikes out again today. Loved it!


----------



## _pH_ (Sep 25, 2010)

editor said:


> Tip: if you're cycling into Soho on a Saturday afternoon, don's do it with two minutes left of your 30 mins hire, expecting to instantly find a slot!
> 
> I took a couple of bikes out again today. Loved it!



I think I'm right in saying that if you get to a docking station and all the slots are full there's an option on the terminal screen which you can press and it treats it as though you've finished your hire there. It then tells you where the nearest empty slots are and you get a certain amount of time to take the bike to that docking station at no extra charge.

I cycled back to London Bridge after we were talking about it last night - took me 26m 16s according to the little journey record print out thing. I don't know if that's quick or not, didn't really know where the fuck I was going tbh. The only drawback was that the nearest docking station is on Tooley St, so it's a 5-10 minute walk back to London Bridge. It would be nice if there could be a docking station right outside the station, where the buses stop. Maybe they'll put one in in the future once the work associated with the Shard's all done, dunno.


----------



## mango5 (Oct 1, 2010)

After seeing _pH_ cycle merrily away as I waited for a bus home I registered for this.  Got 2 keys on one account (day access).  Anyone know if I can use 'em both at the same time?  I'd be happy to be charged twice.


----------



## salem (Oct 1, 2010)

Yes you can but be aware that even if you use only one you'll still be charged twice. Crazy and my biggest bugbear of the system.

TFL are looking at getting it changed but no indication on time so you might find that if there will be times you'll use it alone then you might want to cancel the second key.


----------



## mango5 (Oct 1, 2010)

Ah, that's a bit shit. Thanks.


----------



## toblerone3 (Oct 4, 2010)

rover07 said:


> Have any been stolen yet?
> 
> And if not ...WHY NOT?



Five have been stolen according to an article in The Independent on 27 September. Compare this to the 3,000 stolen in Paris during the first six months of the Velib scheme.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Oct 4, 2010)

Stealing is a rubbish idea. The bikes are heavy as a tank, only an idiot would want to actually own one for personal use.


----------



## toblerone3 (Oct 4, 2010)

The value of the aluminium when melted down is only worth £35.


----------



## kyser_soze (Oct 5, 2010)

Yeah, but we're talking about the French here. They probably saw it as their _duty_ to steal the bikes.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 14, 2010)

This report was in the paper this morning.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/green-living-blog/2010/oct/13/london-bike-hire-profit

- 7 bike riders have been injured using the bikes in a million journeys.
- The scheme is already set to make an operating profit and could start to repay set up costs

So this scheme is safer than walking, and unlike any other public transport in London does not need a subsidy per journey.  Seems like everyone's a winner to me!


----------



## Crispy (Oct 14, 2010)

An _operating_ profit, mind you. But even that is amazing! It will be interesting to see how things change once the membership rules are removed and they're open to anyone at walk-up.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2010)

It's a brilliant scheme. I love using the bikes.



> The scheme will be expanded with new areas bolted on the central zone as finances permit. Top of the list are Canary Wharf, Camden and Tower Hamlets, although others are being considered.


Where's Brixton?! Grrr.


----------



## salem (Oct 14, 2010)

They are currently building a new bay in Royal College street (Camden) which will save me 5 minutes on my walk to Mornington Crescent where I often pick up a bike.

The only issue with it creeping out of zone 1 is that cycling in central London you know you can find a bay easy enough even if you don't know where they are in advance. However once the bays become more spread out a full bay can be a nightmare. It only happened to me once at the top of Regents Park when I had to instead go to St John's Wood which added a good 10-15 mins to my walk back. Although that have since opened another one around there.


----------



## editor (Oct 14, 2010)

salem said:


> They are currently building a new bay in Royal College street (Camden) which will save me 5 minutes on my walk to Mornington Crescent where I often pick up a bike.
> 
> The only issue with it creeping out of zone 1 is that cycling in central London you know you can find a bay easy enough even if you don't know where they are in advance. However once the bays become more spread out a full bay can be a nightmare. It only happened to me once at the top of Regents Park when I had to instead go to St John's Wood which added a good 10-15 mins to my walk back. Although that have since opened another one around there.


Have you got a smartphone? There's loads of free apps out there showing which dock has bays free. The Android one is particularly good.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 14, 2010)

They still haven't got the redistribution thing sorted out properly. Over the past few weeks, I'd say that around half of my journeys either start with me finding a docking location completely empty, or end with me finding one completely full. On a few occasions I've had to go round two or three full locations before finding somewhere with a space to leave the bike. This eats up any time gained by using the bike instead of other means of transport.

The result of this is that I just can't use the bikes for any journey that requires me to be at a certain place at a certain time, because the risk of not being able to find a docking station at the end is much too high.


----------



## PacificOcean (Oct 15, 2010)

I will still stand by my point - helmets!

How long before someone sues after being hit by a lorry with no helmet?


----------



## PacificOcean (Oct 15, 2010)

editor said:


> Have you got a smartphone? There's loads of free apps out there showing which dock has bays free. The Android one is particularly good.


 
Not everyone, no.


----------



## strung out (Oct 15, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> I will still stand by my point - helmets!
> 
> How long before someone sues after being hit by a lorry with no helmet?


 
a very long time


----------



## PacificOcean (Oct 15, 2010)

strung out said:


> a very long time


 
"Where there is blame, there is a claim.  Call now on 0800 4564.........."


----------



## strung out (Oct 15, 2010)

i suspect if there's blame it will be either with the lorry driver or the cyclist


----------



## Crispy (Oct 15, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> I will still stand by my point - helmets!
> 
> How long before someone sues after being hit by a lorry with no helmet?


 
Should be a while, most lorries wear helmets.

Sorry


----------



## _pH_ (Oct 16, 2010)

My key stopped working today. I rang them up and after 10 minutes of talking ("yes, I have tried a different docking station.......no I'm not putting the key in with the bar code facing up.......yes, I understand your system might suggest there's nothing wrong with the key but it's not doing anything - no lights at all on the docking point.........yes I know I used it this morning but it's not working now" blah blah blah.......) the lady put me on hold to speak to her supervisor *shitty tinkly hold music* "we'll send you a new key, you should receive it within 3 working days".

How do the keys work then? RFID tag? Why would it stop working?


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2010)

That's happened to me on a few occasions...put the key in, red light nearly instantly, same on all the other bikes in the rack. Sometimes I'll try it on another rack and it'll be OK, once or twice it's worked after waiting a few minutes and trying again. No idea why.


----------



## teuchter (Oct 16, 2010)

Oh, I see you were getting no light at all.


----------



## _pH_ (Oct 16, 2010)

Yeah I've had red lights before (I just assumed that maybe that bike needed repairing or something) but I got nothing at all today. Couldn't print out a journey record or get a balance or anything else.


----------



## Giles (Oct 16, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> I will still stand by my point - helmets!
> 
> How long before someone sues after being hit by a lorry with no helmet?


 
A long time, hopefully. 

There is no legal requirement at all for anyone to wear a helmet to ride a pushbike, so people hiring out bikes have no legal duty to provide them.

And anyway, if someone has the awful "classic" bike accident where they rid up the inside of a truck who then turns left and squashes them with 30+ tons of gravel or whatever, a polystyrene cycling helmet would be of about as much use as a chocolate fireguard, I think.

Giles..


----------



## Sunray (Oct 18, 2010)

There is no proof that cycle helmets make jot of difference to riders. There is a lot of evidence that wearing them just changes the injury they sustain.


----------



## editor (Oct 18, 2010)

Sunray said:


> There is no proof that cycle helmets make jot of difference to riders. There is a lot of evidence that wearing them just changes the injury they sustain.


There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that wearing helmets increases the risk-taking behaviour of cyclists, thus defeating the point of them in the first place.



> The theories of risk homeostasis and risk compensation are well summarized by Gerald Wilde and John Adams. (Wilde 1994, Adams 1995, Adams 1999). Those who argue that risk compensation must be taken into account before bicycle helmets are adopted as a safety measure have said:
> 
> 1) Encouraging helmet use would have serious adverse consequences on the public health, without making any significant difference to the dangers of riding.( Keatinge in Cochrane comment)
> 
> ...


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2010)

I was talking to an A&E doctor just the other day about this. It's not something I've read up on much until now. She was saying that it's fine if people don't want to wear helmets - that's their choice - but that she finds it frustrating when people try and justify this with arguments about wearing helmets making things more dangerous. As far as she is concerned it is simply not true to say that cycle helmets don't have a really significant effect on the chances of surviving a head injury.



Sunray said:


> There is no proof that cycle helmets make jot of difference to riders.



What about the summary of the Cochrane review -




			
				Cochrane review said:
			
		

> Wearing a helmet dramatically reduces the risk of head and facial injuries for bicyclists involved in a crash, even if it involves a motor vehicle.
> 
> Cycling is a healthy and popular activity for people of all ages. Crashes involving bicyclists are, however, common and often involve motor vehicles. Head injuries are responsible for around three-quarters of deaths among bicyclists involved in crashes. Facial injuries are also common. The review found that wearing a helmet reduced the risk of head or brain injury by approximately two-thirds or more, regardless of whether the crash involved a motor vehicle. Injuries to the mid and upper face were also markedly reduced, although helmets did not prevent lower facial injuries.





Sunray said:


> There is a *lot* of evidence that wearing them just changes the injury they sustain.


 
Are you able to give a link for this?



editor said:


> There is also a lot of evidence to suggest that wearing helmets increases the risk-taking behaviour of cyclists, thus defeating the point of them in the first place.


 
Having read the link you provided, my impression is that there is lots of empirical evidence that wearing a helmet significantly reduces the chance of severe head injury. There seems to be a plausible theoretical argument that risk compensation is a real effect and should be looked at more, but there seems to be no actual evidence of the extent to which it is significant in the case of cycle helmets.

I think it's misleading to say there is "a lot of evidence to suggest that wearing helmets increases the risk-taking behaviour of cyclists, thus defeating the point of them in the first place".

For this to be true there would have to be evidence which quantified the effect of risk compensation in a way which allowed it to be balanced against the beneficial effects of wearing a helmet.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2010)

teuchter said:


> I think it's misleading to say there is "a lot of evidence to suggest that wearing helmets increases the risk-taking behaviour of cyclists, thus defeating the point of them in the first place".
> 
> For this to be true there would have to be evidence which quantified the effect of risk compensation in a way which allowed it to be balanced against the beneficial effects of wearing a helmet.


I've posted other research links in this thread, but here's another that strongly links helmet wearing with increased risk taking.



> Death and injury
> 
> Roughly 12 million people cycle in the United Kingdom during any given year and about 200 die annually. On average, 12 million years of cycling equates to 200 deaths - or one death per 60,000 years of average cycling.
> 
> ...


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2010)

^ That's not any kind of peer reviewed study - it's some bloke's web page. Many of the references point to stuff from 15 or 20 years ago. The extrapolations from the starting point that "12 million people cycle in the United Kingdom any given year" seem dodgy to me. The calculations should be done on the basis of kms cycled, surely. And he ignores the number injured but not killed. He talks about the benefits of wearing helmets being overstated but his reference link is to something from 1989. And it seems to be contradicted by the cochrane review I posted the link to.

There might be some valid points in there but overall I don't find it very convincing.


----------



## editor (Oct 19, 2010)

teuchter said:


> ^ That's not any kind of peer reviewed study - it's some bloke's web page.


I wish you'd look back through this thread because this was discussed in depth some time ago, and links to several studies posted. 

There's also been ample well-referenced articles about the subject.


> CYCLISTS who wear helmets are more likely to be knocked off their bicycles than those who do not, according to research.
> 
> Motorists give helmeted cyclists less leeway than bare-headed riders because they assume that they are more proficient. They give a wider berth to those they think do not look like “proper” cyclists, including women, than to kitted-out “lycra-clad warriors”.
> 
> ...



http://www.anweald.co.uk/cyclehelmets.html
http://www.cyclecraft.co.uk/digest/helmet_research.html
http://www.cyclehelmets.org/1182.html


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2010)

I think this is the key quote from the article about the guy who measured how closely people overtook:



> He was unsure whether the protection of a helmet justified the higher risk of having a collision.



I'm willing to believe that there might be some additional risks resulting from wearing a helmet. But like I said earlier, that's fairly meaningless unless there's some way of quantifying those risks such that they can be balanced against the benefits.

You said there was a "lot of evidence" that wearing a helmet increased risks to such an extent that it resulted in "defeating the point of them in the first place". I can't see any clear evidence of this in any of the links posted so far.


----------



## Crispy (Oct 19, 2010)

The evidence is poor, indeed.

All i can say, from my own experience, is that i ride the same whether i am or am not wearing my helmet, and that i get treated just the same by other road users.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 19, 2010)

If you cycle in Australia you now must by law wear a helmet.  There is a cycle hire scheme in Melbourne which hardly anyone uses as people don't have access to helmets

http://www.cycle-helmets.com/bike-hire-schemes.html

I don't know if anyone's done any sums, but I bet you could prove that Melbourne is less safe for people not adopting the cycle scheme as people continue to drive - and pose a much greater risk to others.  Cycling poses little threat to anyone.  Any increased risk is more than offset than general increases in health.

After the mandatory cycle helmet law in Australia cycling is also a riskier activity.  The reason is because there are far fewer cyclists on the road and drivers no longer look out for them.

- Argue that an individual should wear a helmet as it makes people safer and I'll tent to agree.
- Argue that helmets should be mandatory I'll strongly disagree


----------



## snowy_again (Oct 19, 2010)

Have you ever tried cycling in Australia? I'd take Hyde Park Corner on a Monday morning over certain bits of Melbourne / Sydney / Gold Coast.
Gah! I'm getting involved in a helmet debate again! However Boris bikes are reaching further and further into South London.


----------



## fredfelt (Oct 19, 2010)

snowy_again said:


> Have you ever tried cycling in Australia? I'd take Hyde Park Corner on a Monday morning over certain bits of Melbourne / Sydney / Gold Coast.
> Gah! I'm getting involved in a helmet debate again! However Boris bikes are reaching further and further into South London.


 
Yes, years ago I rented a bike while I was there.  I hadn't ridden a bike for around a month so I just had to get out and ride!


----------



## Ted Striker (Oct 19, 2010)

Joined the scheme and going to use it for the cross London commute home. Such a relief to just pick one up and not worry about tyres etc...It's no superfast route home, though is a pleasant gentle workout (especially due to it's weight) if nothing else


----------



## teuchter (Oct 19, 2010)

BigPhil said:


> - Argue that an individual should wear a helmet as it makes people safer and I'll tent to agree.
> - Argue that helmets should be mandatory I'll strongly disagree


 
Yeah I think is what I'd say too.

How beneficial helmets are, and whether they should be mandatory, are really two different arguments.


----------



## Open Sauce (Oct 23, 2010)

Open Sauce said:


> Why do you think a helmet would make any difference? Have you read any studies or is it "obvious"?


 


PacificOcean said:


> I will still stand by my point - helmets!
> 
> How long before someone sues after being hit by a lorry with no helmet?



How long before you answer my question regarding your faith in helmets?


----------



## Open Sauce (Oct 23, 2010)

teuchter said:


> That's happened to me on a few occasions...put the key in, red light nearly instantly, same on all the other bikes in the rack. Sometimes I'll try it on another rack and it'll be OK, once or twice it's worked after waiting a few minutes and trying again. No idea why.



Less than 5 minutes after your last trip?


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2010)

Open Sauce said:


> Less than 5 minutes after your last trip?


 
Yes.


----------



## teuchter (Nov 5, 2010)

Email from TfL



> Dear Mr Sir Teuchter MacTeuchter,
> 
> I am writing to let you know that the Barclays Cycle Hire system will be upgraded this weekend. This work is planned to start at 16:00 on Sunday 7 November and to be completed by 04:00 on Monday 8 November.
> 
> ...


----------



## plurker (Nov 5, 2010)

Rumour has it that the software update they're doing during ^^^ that outage is to try and bring in PAYG functionality in the near(ish) future.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Nov 8, 2010)

They are certainly taking their time over letting non-Londoners join in the fun.  With winter closing in, it's looking like the new year for me 

Hurry up guys.


----------



## salem (Nov 8, 2010)

Non-Londoners can join, just gotta register.


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Nov 8, 2010)

salem said:


> Non-Londoners can join, just gotta register.



I realise this, but I wouldn't use it enough to warrant £45 a year. 

And I've got a big bunch of keys already . It'd just be something else to worry about and something else to lose.


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## teuchter (Nov 8, 2010)

you don't have to go for the £45 thing if you register. You can just opt to pay £1 for each 24hr period.


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## Bungle73 (Dec 3, 2010)

It's been opened up to casual users today! Just insert your credit or debit card and off you go!


----------



## Oswaldtwistle (Dec 3, 2010)

Bungle73 said:


> It's been opened up to casual users today! Just insert your credit or debit card and off you go!


 
Yay!


----------



## Badgers (Dec 3, 2010)

Till good news isn't it


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## Crispy (Dec 3, 2010)

Not the best weather for it mind!

I'm guessing that you swipe, put your PIN in, then a light by an unlocked bike starts to flash?


----------



## 19sixtysix (Dec 3, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Not the best weather for it mind!
> 
> I'm guessing that you swipe, put your PIN in, then a light by an unlocked bike starts to flash?



And some local urchin swipes the bike before the tourist realises what's happened.


----------



## Bungle73 (Dec 3, 2010)

Crispy said:


> Not the best weather for it mind!
> 
> I'm guessing that you swipe, put your PIN in, then a light by an unlocked bike starts to flash?


From TfL website:



> Go to terminal at docking station
> 
> Follow on-screen instructions
> 
> ...






19sixtysix said:


> And some local urchin swipes the bike before the tourist realises what's happened.


Do they not have a keypad to enter the code at each bicycle?  I've never examined a docking station that closely.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 4, 2010)

Ah yes, they have buttons labelled 1 2 3


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 4, 2010)

Can't wait to give this a go. How much is it for one hour?


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## joustmaster (Dec 4, 2010)

My friend couldn't find a docking station near his studio in soho so.ended up keeping the bike inside with him all day. It.cost him 60 quid.
 Tfl refunded it all for him.


----------



## Crispy (Dec 4, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> Can't wait to give this a go. How much is it for one hour?


 
The pricing is in two parts. First you pay for an access period. £1 for 24 hours, £5 for a week. Then, any <30 minute rides in that period are free. Longer rides cost more, with the price escalating heavily the longer the ride. As joustmaster's friend found out!


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 4, 2010)

Crispy said:


> The pricing is in two parts. First you pay for an access period. £1 for 24 hours, £5 for a week. Then, any <30 minute rides in that period are free. Longer rides cost more, with the price escalating heavily the longer the ride. As joustmaster's friend found out!


 
Cheers. And what happens if you ride one to work and then find the bike racks are full at the other end and you can't give the bike back? Is that likely? I guess I should check up on the bike racks near work before getting one out. Would be a pain to have to keep riding round to find an empty space somewhere.


----------



## Placid Casual27 (Dec 4, 2010)

Golden when this happens (full docking station) go to the terminal, press the "no docking spaces free" button  and it lets you extend for 15 mins while you cycle off to the next one. I have done 150-odd rides and this has only happened twice, And it is usually only a couple of mins between docking stations (theoretically). Each docking station terminal has a map of nearby docking stations. In short there is provision for that scenario and in most places I have ever seen it doesn't happen much.

Enjoy! And as you are riding around you will soon realise where docking stations are, its like the knowledge, innit. Have fun


----------



## Crispy (Dec 4, 2010)

goldenecitrone said:


> Cheers. And what happens if you ride one to work and then find the bike racks are full at the other end and you can't give the bike back? Is that likely? I guess I should check up on the bike racks near work before getting one out. Would be a pain to have to keep riding round to find an empty space somewhere.


 
If you have a smartphone , get one of the apps that shows you where the nearest bikes and empty spaces are


----------



## goldenecitrone (Dec 4, 2010)

Placid Casual27 said:


> Golden when this happens (full docking station) go to the terminal, press the "no docking spaces free" button  and it lets you extend for 15 mins while you cycle off to the next one. I have done 150-odd rides and this has only happened twice, And it is usually only a couple of mins between docking stations (theoretically). Each docking station terminal has a map of nearby docking stations. In short there is provision for that scenario and in most places I have ever seen it doesn't happen much.
> 
> Enjoy! And as you are riding around you will soon realise where docking stations are, its like the knowledge, innit. Have fun


 
Cheers for that. 

And you your crispness. Unfortunately I have an old fangled mobile with no apps. Will just have to keep my eyes peeled.


----------



## Black Halo (Dec 13, 2010)

PacificOcean said:


> if they realise the point of the scheme and anyone can turn up and use them - I give it one week from then.


Been 10 days now and the sky has not fallen down (or been any fatalities as a part of the scheme), just saying


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2010)

The bikes racks are nearly all located on pavements. This encourages people to cycle away from the racks on the pavement to the nearest bit of road, likewise they cycle on the pavement to return the bikes. All seems fair enough, not seen any outrageous pavement riding so far.

But this morning on Ecclestone Bridge Road and corner of Gillingham Street there was a team of plastic plod waiting on the corner for any hapless riders who happened to use the 10 yards of pavement to get to or from the road. Slapping all with a £30.

Be careful kids.


----------



## joustmaster (Dec 14, 2010)

Bahnhof Strasse said:


> The bikes racks are nearly all located on pavements. This encourages people to cycle away from the racks on the pavement to the nearest bit of road, likewise they cycle on the pavement to return the bikes. All seems fair enough, not seen any outrageous pavement riding so far.
> 
> But this morning on Ecclestone Bridge Road and corner of Gillingham Street there was a team of plastic plod waiting on the corner for any hapless riders who happened to use the 10 yards of pavement to get to or from the road. Slapping all with a £30.
> 
> Be careful kids.



Can the pretend police do that?
I thought they were just glorified lollipop ladies. I told one to fuck off, during the summer and just cycled off.


----------



## Bahnhof Strasse (Dec 14, 2010)

joustmaster said:


> Can the pretend police do that?



It would seem that they can




			
				joustmaster said:
			
		

> I told one to fuck off, during the summer and just cycled off.



Which is of course the correct response to anything thing these twonks say to you.


----------



## maldwyn (Jan 4, 2011)

I caused a bit of a reaction when I suggested the scheme was middle-class in concept (mainly due to needing charge/creditcard to register), today's Standard has an interesting article of its users.


> The majority of users are white professional men aged 25 to 44 and earning more than £50,000 a year. Six in 10 Boris bikers earned this sum, compared with about a quarter of Londoners overall. Only five per cent earn less than £20,000 a year.


http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/standard/article-23910653-boris-bike-users-are-like-boris-johnson.do


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

maldwyn said:


> I caused a bit of a reaction when I suggested the scheme was middle-class in concept (mainly due to needing charge/creditcard to register), today's Standard has an interesting article of its users.


You don't think poor people have credit cards?


----------



## Bungle73 (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> You don't think poor people have credit cards?


 
Indeed.  Most people have some kind of charge/credit/debit card these days.

I agree with this comment on the site



> So what's wrong with white professional people using a service that's being provided? Maybe everyone else should get their act together and follow the perfectly reasonable example of their more successful fellow Londoners - they may actually benefit from it.


----------



## maldwyn (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> You don't think poor people have credit cards?


 
We went through this at the time, obviously "the poor" do have debit/credit cards - but an awful lot don't.

That aside, don't you find TfL survey findings make interesting reading?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> You don't think poor people have credit cards?


 
A lot of people don't want them because they have problems controlling their spending. 

And yep, a lot of perople don't have cards, inc. very many people with those 'basic' bank accounts gov't forced banks to offer to those who were otherwise refused accounts.

Having said that, the number of disappeared bikes is so low for a reason.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> And yep, a lot of perople don't have cards, inc. very many people with those 'basic' bank accounts gov't forced banks to offer to those who were otherwise refused accounts.


A lot of poor people have credit cards.



> A survey by the Institute of Public Policy Research following the fortunes of 58 low-income families shows how those hit hardest by the recession have been those least able to pay their way...
> 
> ...Of those in the study, 59% had credit cards, 25% store cards and 47% used mail-order catalogues
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2010/feb/07/cheap-credit-poorest-spiral-debt





London_Calling said:


> Having said that, the number of disappeared bikes is so low for a reason.





What do you mean?


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 4, 2011)

What I still don't understand is what's to stop someone using a pre-pay card with a few quid on it hiring a bike and then simply disappearing with it with TFL unable to charge more than what little balance is available on the card.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> A lot of poor people have credit cards.



Fwiw, I was referring to conventional credit cards via high street lenders. If I read that article correctly, your idea is to get involved in no-credit check, doorsetep credit cards wityh lunatic interest rates (as per your link) so people can rent a bike off TFL? No, you can't mean that.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Having said that, the number of disappeared bikes is so low for a reason.


 
IMO, it's because the bikes have to be returned to a docking point. The Paris bikes have a built-in lock, so you can chain them up while you eg. pop into the shops. It's an awful lock and they get stolen while locked. It also encourages this sort of hop-on-hop-off usage, which can mean not locking the bike up _at all_. So lots of them get stolen. The Barclays scheme encourages you to ride from docking point to docking point only.

As for the wealthy/white/male profile of the existing users - I'd suspect this has something to do with the members-only nature of the scheme until very recently. Over time, I expect the user base to broaden (although probably remaining male dominated, as per cycling in general).


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

The fact that the bikes weigh a ton and look as cool as a heatwave probably helps deter thieving yoof.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Fwiw, I was referring to conventional credit cards via high street lenders. If I read that article correctly, your idea is to get involved in no-credit check, doorsetep credit cards wityh lunatic interest rates (as per your link) so people can rent a bike off TFL? No, you can't mean that.


You've misread it completely. It was being asserted that poor people don't have credit cards, when in fact many of them do.

Now what was your point about the number of disappeared bikes being so low "for a reason"?


----------



## Bungle73 (Jan 4, 2011)

Crispy said:


> IMO, it's because the bikes have to be returned to a docking point. The Paris bikes have a built-in lock, so you can chain them up while you eg. pop into the shops. It's an awful lock and they get stolen while locked. It also encourages this sort of hop-on-hop-off usage, which can mean not locking the bike up _at all_. So lots of them get stolen


If you don't have to return the Paris bikes to some kind of docking station how do they know when you've finished using the bike?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 4, 2011)

Bungle73 said:


> If you don't have to return the Paris bikes to some kind of docking station how do they know when you've finished using the bike?


 
You return it when you're finished with it, but the built-in lock encourages a usage pattern that means the bikes get left unattended and undocked. This was a weakness that the London scheme explicitly set out to fix.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> You've misread it completely. It was being asserted that poor people don't have credit cards, when in fact many of them do.


The point is there are 'good' credit cards (wel, kind of) - from high street banks for example, and the kind you linked to i.e. the 'bad' kind. It is not a good idea to encourage anyone, let alone poor people whio can't get conventional credit, to get involved with the latter type so they can rent a bloody push bike.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> The point is there are 'good' credit cards - from high street banks for example, and the kind you linked to the 'bad' kind.


Where on earth does it say that? Have you even read the article? And who makes these "bad" credit cards you're on about, anyway?

Oh, and will you finally explain your point about the number of disappeared bikes being so low "for a reason"? Thanks.


----------



## maldwyn (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> You've misread it completely. It was being asserted that poor people don't have credit cards, when in fact many of them do.


I wasn't asserting poor people didn't have credit cards - according to CAB 1 in 12 households don't have a bank account and a significant number of people have restricted bank/post office accounts - i.e - cards that can only be used to withdraw cash from an ATM - these can't be used to register on the scheme.


----------



## Bungle73 (Jan 4, 2011)

Crispy said:


> You return it when you're finished with it, but the built-in lock encourages a usage pattern that means the bikes get left unattended and undocked. This was a weakness that the London scheme explicitly set out to fix.


Oh.  I thought you were saying people just left them lying around when they'd finished with them.


London_Calling said:


> The point is there are 'good' credit cards (wel, kind of) - from high street banks for example, and the kind you linked to i.e. the 'bad' kind. It is not a good idea to encourage anyone, let alone poor people whio can't get conventional credit, to get involved with the latter type so they can rent a bloody push bike.


Why this obsession with credit cards?  All anyone needs to get is a debit card, then you can only spend what you actually have in your account.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> Where on earth does it say that? Have you even read the article? And who makes these "bad" credit cards you're on about, anyway?



I have read the article you linked to. I'd encourage you to consider the difference between high street bank cards and no credit check, doorstep cards incorporating very high interest rates, which is what you linked to and seem to think is the way forward for poor people.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> The point is there are 'good' credit cards (wel, kind of) - from high street banks for example, and the kind you linked to i.e. the 'bad' kind. It is not a good idea to encourage anyone, let alone poor people whio can't get conventional credit, to get involved with the latter type so they can rent a bloody push bike.


 
He's not encouraging it, just saying that's the way it is. I think.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I have read the article you linked to. I'd encourage you to consider the difference between high street bank cards and no credit check, doorstep cards incorporating very high interest rates.


What the fuck are "doorstep" credit cards?!

In fact, don't bother answering as I can see you're going to twist this into something quite incredible rather than just admit you're wrong, just like you're refusing point blank to explain your comment about the number of disappeared bikes being so low "for a reason",  despite being asked about five times.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

editor said:


> What the fuck are "doorstep" credit cards?!


 
You'll find the first clue in the first para of the article you linked to.

You seem overwrought. I have no idea why.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> I have read the article you linked to. I'd encourage you to consider the difference between high street bank cards and no credit check, _doorstep cards incorporating very high interest rates, which is what you linked to and seem to think is the way forward for poor people._


Where the fuck have I said that?

Jeez. Stop making shit up.


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> You'll find the first clue in the first para of the article you linked to.
> 
> You seem overwrought. I have no idea why.


There is mention _anywhere in that article_ of doorstep lenders issuing credit cards.

It seems you're unable to tell the difference between 'credit' and credit cards,' and throwing around cheap ad hominems isn't going to cover up that error, or the fact that you've got yourself into such a pickle you can't even explain your own point.


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 4, 2011)

When you're in the mood, you could have a verbal fight with a deaf mute.

It's enough for me >


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jan 4, 2011)

I don't think there is such a thing as a doorstep credit card.

There certainly was a culture not so long ago of very easy credit being granted through cards though, even to those with poor credit ratings (Capital One springs to mind).

Not that that has anything to do with poor people and bike hire though. Just saying.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 4, 2011)

London_Calling said:


> Having said that, the number of disappeared bikes is so low for a reason.


 
What reason do you think?


----------



## editor (Jan 4, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> I don't think there is such a thing as a doorstep credit card.


There isn't. He made it up.



Crispy said:


> What reason do you think?


Good luck with that. I tried asking him five times and got nowhere.


----------



## maldwyn (Jan 4, 2011)

Would it have been too difficult to link the scheme with the Oystercard  thus probably making it more accessible - someone without the required credit/debit card could get their id verified at say a Post Office and their Oystercard activated to deduct membership and hire fees on a PAYG basis.


----------



## Laughing Toad (Jan 5, 2011)

maldwyn said:


> Would it have been too difficult to link the scheme with the Oystercard  thus probably making it more accessible - someone without the required credit/debit card could get their id verified at say a Post Office and their Oystercard activated to deduct membership and hire fees on a PAYG basis.


 

No. From the GLA Transport Committee (Chaired by Lambeth's own Val Shawcross - hopefully the next Deputy Mayor of London):



> Many organisations have made suggestions for other improvements to the cycle hire scheme. A frequent suggestion is linking the scheme to Oystercard. This seems unlikely to happen. TfL has said that it would be expensive. It would also be out of step with its move to introduce contactless payment systems.



See the full report here, and a video of the whole meeting here.


----------



## kyser_soze (Jan 6, 2011)

'Doorstep' credit cards are those issued by sub-prime loan companies like Provident, who make door to door collections. Not that hard to work out if you know anything about sub-prime lending organisations.



> There certainly was a culture not so long ago of very easy credit being granted through cards though, even to those with poor credit ratings (Capital One springs to mind).



Yeah, Cap 1 gave me a £2K card, I maxed it out, they cancelled it and never chased me for the debt


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 7, 2011)

Well done kyser, you've more patience that I have - lend us a fiver?


----------



## Crispy (Jan 7, 2011)

You might have missed this earlier 


London_Calling said:


> Having said that, the number of disappeared bikes is so low for a reason.


 
What reason do you think?


----------



## London_Calling (Jan 7, 2011)

If I fucking knew I'd fucking say.


----------



## Crispy (Jan 7, 2011)

Ah, ok it was a question 
In which case, I think it's the "always dock" usage pattern, as opposed to the "mid-point lockup" one in Paris.


----------



## _pH_ (Jan 26, 2011)

Fucking pissed off with this now. The last 4 times I tried to get a bike out it wouldn't let me including earlier today which meant I missed something I wanted to go to. And when I did get one a while back I had to ride around for 20 fucking minutes when I got to where I was going to try and find a docking station with empty bays. Don't think I'll bother again.


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## teuchter (Jul 28, 2011)

So does anyone use this regularly now?

I've not used it much recently - tried a couple of times a few weeks ago when it wouldn't let me take a bike out, for an unidentified reason.

Then tonight, I walked all the way from Warren street to Holborn past completely empty docking station upon completely empty docking station (must have looked in at least 8). Eventually I found one with *one* bike in it. Took that, cycled to Elephant. Docking station completely full. Next docking station completely full. When I found somewhere to leave it, it took me ten or fifteen minutes to walk all the way back to where I wanted to be going. The whole thing was a massive waste of time.

It's a real shame because it could be so good but they still don't seem to have got the redistribution sorted. Or have they just given up? Is it always like this?


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 28, 2011)

I can certainly say I've seen a fair amount of take-up when I've been in the City - it's surprised me a bit. However, it's basically meaningless outside quite a small area of central London. It's not in any way anything like a real urban cycling project... it just feels like a perk for City workers and a Mayoral show-off scheme, not something that at all addresses general transport issues in London. That part _doesn't_ surprise me.


----------



## Kanda (Jul 28, 2011)

They still re-distribute every day in Soho. Loads of people I work with use them daily... But they mostly get to work at about 7am and leave at 5:30pm


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## joustmaster (Jul 28, 2011)

I only seem to use it to cycle from the pub to where a night bus goes to my house from.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I can certainly say I've seen a fair amount of take-up when I've been in the City - it's surprised me a bit. However, it's basically meaningless outside quite a small area of central London. It's not in any way anything like a real urban cycling project... it just feels like a perk for City workers and a Mayoral show-off scheme, not something that at all addresses general transport issues in London. That part _doesn't_ surprise me.


 
It wouldn't be meaningless if you could be confident that there will generally be a bike near you and that you will generally be able to drop it off where you want. That seems to be the only thing wrong with it at the moment, really.

Anyway, I've made a complaint to see what happens.


----------



## teuchter (Jul 28, 2011)

Kanda said:


> They still re-distribute every day in Soho. Loads of people I work with use them daily... But they mostly get to work at about 7am and leave at 5:30pm


 
Perhaps they are only really interested in catering for rush hour commuting.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 28, 2011)

teuchter said:


> It wouldn't be meaningless if you could be confident that there will generally be a bike near you and that you will generally be able to drop it off where you want. That seems to be the only thing wrong with it at the moment, really.


 
That is a _pretty major_ thing though, and I have trouble imagining the scheme being spread across the city.


----------



## joustmaster (Jul 28, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> That is a _pretty major_ thing though, and I have trouble imagining the scheme being spread across the city.


I don't think it was ever meant to be city wide. Even the pricing is aimed at people just going about zone 1.


----------



## FridgeMagnet (Jul 28, 2011)

joustmaster said:


> I don't think it was ever meant to be city wide. Even the pricing is aimed at people just going about zone 1.


 
I agree, and that's why I say it's not a real urban cycling project for London and feels like a City perk.


----------



## editor (Jul 28, 2011)

FridgeMagnet said:


> I agree, and that's why I say it's not a real urban cycling project for London and feels like a City perk.


I don't view it as a "city perk." I view it as a quick and convenient way to get around the centre of London. It's not about TfL being a cycle hire firm, but it's about getting more people out of cabs and cars and buses and onto bikes in the congested centre of town. It's a really ace project.


----------



## Giles (Jul 28, 2011)

This thing about credit cards, and some people not having them, or being able to get them but not control themselves when spending on them: 

Can you not use a basic debit card, like Visa Electron etc, that just won't let you go overdrawn at all? If so, doesn't that neatly solve the problem? Anyone can get a card like this, they give them even for "youth" basic bank accounts, like Halifax Cardcash.

Or does it have to be an actual credit card?

Giles..


----------



## Crispy (Jul 28, 2011)

No, debit cards are fine


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2011)

Giles said:


> Can you not use a basic debit card, like Visa Electron etc, that just won't let you go overdrawn at all? If so, doesn't that neatly solve the problem? Anyone can get a card like this, they give them even for "youth" basic bank accounts, like Halifax Cardcash.
> 
> Or does it have to be an actual credit card?
> 
> Giles..



AFAIK it has to be a credit card, because if the bike gets nicked or "goes missing" while you've hired it, £300 gets taken off your card.  A top-up credit card might work if it's got enough money on it, but IMHO v unlikely that a basic debit card would.


----------



## Greebo (Jul 28, 2011)

Crispy said:


> No, debit cards are fine


Okay, fair enough.


----------



## se5 (Jul 28, 2011)

Giles said:


> This thing about credit cards, and some people not having them, or being able to get them but not control themselves when spending on them:
> 
> Can you not use a basic debit card, like Visa Electron etc, that just won't let you go overdrawn at all? If so, doesn't that neatly solve the problem? Anyone can get a card like this, they give them even for "youth" basic bank accounts, like Halifax Cardcash.
> 
> ...


 
I've just checked - the options are visa debit, visa electron, visa credit, mastercard debit and mastercard credit so virtually everyone will be fine to sign up


----------



## Ted Striker (Jul 28, 2011)

joustmaster said:


> I don't think it was ever meant to be city wide. Even the pricing is aimed at people just going about zone 1.


 
Exactly. If you had 'extremeties' tied into the equation, daily commuting patterns woudl knock the availability right out. It's designed to go from one populous place to another.

Tbh if nothing else the time and weight restrictions on the thing prevent it from being useful for trips longer than zone 1 crosses.


----------



## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2011)

I only just found this out but apparently you can't use the same credit card for general credit card hiring, which you bike key is linked to for releasing bikes on your TFL bike hire account? What complete nonsense is this?

How I found this out? I had a nightmare experience trying to hire a bike the other night.

For some very weird and unknown reason my key was refusing to release any bikes, anywhere. I even had the guy who was redistributing bikes on hand at the time say it was very odd that the release light just kept flashing amber and never turning green (the card was fine and enabled for auto top up btw). So I decided to just use the credit card to get the bike out instead which now I know didn't work because it was linked to my key  - but there is not one message on the screen which tells you this AT ALL. It just says 'cannot process this transaction' or something equally vague along those lines. So there's me, putting my card in about three times, going through countless pointless menu options accepting usage terms and such like, and repeatedly getting this same message. It was infuriating.

So then I had to use another credit card - and anyone who has done this must know what a complete faff it is. First of all, it doesn't take American Express  so I had to use yet another card (my VISA bank card) - and you have to put your card in and put in your PIN and remove it twice to get the piece of paper which has the code to unlock the bike (it doesn't actually tell that you have to do this btw), and follow countless touchscreen menus (the UI is very un-user friendly), and rather annoyingly the touchscreen was being temperamental in deciding when it wanted to accept one of my button pushes. Totally whack.

I called TFL the next day and said my key was not working. They checked and said they couldn't see that there was any problem with the key or the card it was linked to and that it should be fine. But then to top if off, on their system it registered that the bike HAD been removed, and I was charged £1 - and that despite the fact the light clearly NEVER went green to I was definitely NOT able to remove the bike, and I had the guy from the bike redistribution stood right next to me confirming there was a problem. So now I've been charged TWICE for one usage of a bike which took me over ten minutes to release due to all the credit card faffing - and only then I was able to do it because I had three cards on me. The whole system up until then was fine. But my experience the other night was complete and utter fail on the part of TFL and I will be pursuing them for a refund on my £1 which I was unfairly charged when I was unable to take the damn bike.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2011)

se5 said:


> I've just checked - the options are visa debit, visa electron, visa credit, mastercard debit and mastercard credit so virtually everyone will be fine to sign up


 
Just don't bother if you use American Express though.


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## Oswaldtwistle (Jul 28, 2011)

. Edit- ignore me- just seen your post above....


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## Kanda (Jul 28, 2011)

teuchter said:


> Perhaps they are only really interested in catering for rush hour commuting.


 
They re-distribute during and after rush hour so that people can use the stations during the day, if it was just rush hour commutes, they would just leave them there and they'd all go back the same route in the evening.


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## Crispy (Jul 28, 2011)

They'd rather it wasn't used for rush hour commuting, because it so massively distorts the distribution. It's intended for short, irregular journeys.


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## skyscraper101 (Jul 28, 2011)

Well they're putting in bikes in Shepherds Bush next to Westfield in the Spring and also the scheme is being rolled out through Hammersmith and Fulham, Lambeth, Wandsworth and Kensington and Chelsea in 2013.

Boris Johnson was quoted earlier today saying "as long as the money is there and the popularity remains, there is nothing to stop us going further north, south, east and west"

Link


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## teuchter (Jul 28, 2011)

Kanda said:


> They re-distribute during and after rush hour so that people can use the stations during the day, if it was just rush hour commutes, they would just leave them there and they'd all go back the same route in the evening.


 
They didn't seem to have redistributed at all after the rush hour last night. The whole of Soho/Bllomsbury/Covent Garden seemingly completely devoid of bikes.


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## teuchter (Jul 28, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well they're putting in bikes in Shepherds Bush next to Westfield in the Spring and also the scheme is being rolled out through Hammersmith and Fulham, Lambeth, Wandsworth and Kensington and Chelsea in 2013.
> 
> Boris Johnson was quoted earlier today saying "as long as the money is there and the popularity remains, there is nothing to stop us going further north, south, east and west"
> 
> Link


 



> And Mr Johnson says the expansion, announced on the scheme's first anniversary, will help ease some of the congestion that drives west Londoners mad on a daily basis.



That'll be west London where Boris abandoned the congestion charging scheme, then.


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## teuchter (Oct 18, 2011)

Want to have a grumble about anything to do with the hire bikes?

https://www.tfl.gov.uk/tfl/corporate/media/questiontime/default.aspx


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## skyscraper101 (Oct 18, 2011)

Dear Bastards,

Why don't you accept American Express cards like every other sodding place on the TFL network?

Yours,
skyscraper101


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## Minnie_the_Minx (Oct 18, 2011)

skyscraper101 said:


> Well they're putting in bikes in Shepherds Bush next to Westfield in the Spring and also the scheme is being rolled out through Hammersmith and Fulham, Lambeth, Wandsworth and Kensington and Chelsea in 2013.
> 
> Boris Johnson was quoted earlier today saying "as long as the money is there and the popularity remains, there is nothing to stop us going further north, south, east and west"
> 
> Link



Maybe it will reduce this bill

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/top-st...aff-spend-6-6million-on-cabs-115875-23491012/


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## rover07 (Dec 16, 2011)

I've been using these bikes the last few days. Very handy for getting about. Though they're heavy, slow and unwieldy.

I kinda feel restricted in traffic. Normally I would use pavements, jump red lights, etc. but I feel that because im riding a bike with a big number on which is linked to my credit card. I cant break normal traffic rules.

Has anyone been prosecuted for bike traffic offences caught on cctv?

Maybe I just need to relax into it.

Cycling in London is soooo different to Brighton where the Bike is King


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## Crispy (Dec 16, 2011)

rover07 said:


> Normally I would use pavements, jump red lights, etc. but I feel that because im riding a bike with a big number on which is linked to my credit card. I cant break normal traffic rules.



POOR YOU


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## rover07 (Dec 16, 2011)

Its weird... waiting in traffic. Boris bikes are slow plus you cant even stand up to pedal wtf is that about?


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## Crispy (Dec 16, 2011)

they are terrible bikes tbf. My key fob stopped working months ago and I haven't felt the need to replace it.


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## nino_savatte (Dec 16, 2011)

rover07 said:


> I've been using these bikes the last few days. Very handy for getting about. Though they're heavy, slow and unwieldy.
> 
> I kinda feel restricted in traffic. Normally I would use pavements, jump red lights, etc. but I feel that because im riding a bike with a big number on which is linked to my credit card. I cant break normal traffic rules.
> 
> ...



I think anyone who commits traffic offences on a bike should be punished. I almost got hit by some tool jumping a red light while I was on a green.


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## rover07 (Dec 16, 2011)

I dropped it too. I stopped at some lights, went to put my hat on and of course cos its a 'ladies' bike it just toppled over


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## teuchter (Feb 10, 2012)

Hire bikes to be extended eastwards in early March

No expansion in South London yet though


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## DJWrongspeed (Feb 15, 2012)

skyscraper101 said:


> So then I had to use another credit card - and anyone who has done this must know what a complete faff it is.



yeah major Faff, the 2nd time it somehow worked better, well i was pretty twatted and i managed to hire it at 3AM from Angel


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## joustmaster (Feb 15, 2012)

my keys keep breaking. I've pretty much given up using them now.


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## ExtraRefined (Feb 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Hire bikes to be extended eastwards in early March
> 
> No expansion in South London yet though


 
They won't ride them in East London, the bikes have got gears.


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## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

teuchter said:


> Hire bikes to be extended eastwards in early March
> 
> No expansion in South London yet though


Kennington too far north for you?  don't get me wrong, I agree the lack of boris bikes further south is frustrating, but IMHO they'd be horrible to use on some of the hills.


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## ExtraRefined (Feb 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Kennington too far north for you? don't get me wrong, I agree the lack of boris bikes further south is frustrating, but IMHO they'd be horrible to use on some of the hills.


 
They're geared to 30"! What's the point of that if not to go up hills?


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## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

ExtraRefined said:


> They're geared to 30"! What's the point of that if not to go up hills?


You have taken the huge weight of those bikes into account, haven't you?  BTW one use for it would be a quick start after stopping at traffic lights.


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## ExtraRefined (Feb 15, 2012)

Greebo said:


> You have taken the huge weight of those bikes into account, haven't you? BTW one use for it would be a quick start after stopping at traffic lights.


They're only perhaps 10kg heavier than a sensible bike, which is what 15% of average rider+bike weight?

I never have any trouble getting away from lights on 72"


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## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

ExtraRefined said:


> They're only perhaps 10kg heavier than a sensible bike, which is what 15% of average rider+bike weight?
> 
> I never have any trouble getting away from lights on 72"


You're more or less in reasonable condition for cycling - think out of shape office worker without your legs.


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## rover07 (Feb 15, 2012)

23kg


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## Greebo (Feb 15, 2012)

rover07 said:


> 23kg


A wee bit heavy for long slopes then, maybe just about okay on shorter hills if you don't mind standing on the pedals and trying to sprint.  Which I used to do on a Raleigh Wayfarer (approx 15kg).  Just about doable but not pleasant.

You first with the heavier bike, ExtraRefined


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Kennington too far north for you? don't get me wrong, I agree the lack of boris bikes further south is frustrating, but IMHO they'd be horrible to use on some of the hills.


 
There aren't any hills between Kennington and Brixton, or Camberwell, or Peckham.


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## Greebo (Feb 16, 2012)

teuchter said:


> There aren't any hills between Kennington and Brixton, or Camberwell, or Peckham.


There are more than a few very long slopes though, and they're worse than hills on a heavy bike.


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## Crispy (Feb 16, 2012)

Greebo said:


> There are more than a few very long slopes though, and they're worse than hills on a heavy bike.


If they can have them in Camden (top of a long rise) then they can have them in Brixton (flat as flat can be all the way to the river)


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2012)

Greebo said:


> There are more than a few very long slopes though,


 
What exactly do you class as a slope?


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2012)

Having bikes around here would be especially useful for journeys on the Clapham-Brixton-Peckham Great Rubbish Public Transport Axis.


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## Greebo (Feb 16, 2012)

teuchter said:


> What exactly do you class as a slope?


Borrow a skateboard or inline skates - if you start rolling almost immediately (even very slowly), you're on a slope.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2012)

Greebo said:


> Borrow a skateboard or inline skates - if you start rolling almost immediately (even very slowly), you're on a slope.


 
In that case, consider your hire bike "slope" concerns disregarded as nonsense.


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## Crispy (Feb 16, 2012)

teuchter said:


> the Clapham-Brixton-Peckham Great Rubbish Public Transport Axis.


 
Don't get me started on THAT one. Especially how ELLX phase 2 will completely fail to fix it adequately.


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## teuchter (Feb 16, 2012)

Crispy said:


> Don't get me started on THAT one. Especially how ELLX phase 2 will completely fail to fix it adequately.


 
It'll completely fail Brixton, but now that I am closer to Denmark Hill, I am looking forward to direct links to East London and to Clapham Junction. That's going to be really useful.


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## maldwyn (Nov 7, 2012)

Fees set to double 
​


> ​The surprise news that Boris Bike access charges will double from £1 to £2 a day, £5 to £10 a week and £45 to £90 a year is certain to anger many regular users.​


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## Crispy (Nov 7, 2012)

Blimey. Doesn't bother me, cos I only use it very occasionally.


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## Badgers (Nov 7, 2012)

maldwyn said:


> Fees set to double


 
I heard some hint of this. 
Guess Barclays would not stump up any more?


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## skyscraper101 (Nov 7, 2012)

Quietly slipped out while the eyes of the media were on the US election.


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## Elgar (Nov 8, 2012)

Most of the users of these bikes are young middle class employed white males. They can afford it.


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## joustmaster (Nov 8, 2012)

Elgar said:


> Most of the users of these bikes are young middle class employed white males. They can afford it.


When do you publish the results of your survey?


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## Greebo (Nov 8, 2012)

Elgar said:


> Most of the users of these bikes are young middle class employed white males. They can afford it.


On top of the above inflation fares increase in January?  I think not.


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## DJWrongspeed (Nov 8, 2012)

I think the bikes will only become essential if and when the economy picks up. Any more crowds on tube & buses will simply force people onto the bikes. The bike scheme has been running during a big recession where the public transport system has just about coped. I assume it's losing money right now but TFL aren't giving anything away.


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## Crispy (Nov 8, 2012)

The number of bikes in the system is a drop in the ocean compared to the capacity of the tubes, trains and buses. They can't become essential for commuting, regardless of demand.


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## DJWrongspeed (Nov 8, 2012)

Crispy said:


> The number of bikes in the system is a drop in the ocean compared to the capacity of the tubes, trains and buses. They can't become essential for commuting, regardless of demand.


True, 'essential' isn't the right word.  I meant the scheme will be become viable once you get more desperate commuters feeling they have to use the bikes.


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## ska invita (Nov 8, 2012)

skyscraper101 said:


> Quietly slipped out while the eyes of the media were on the US election.


Yesterday was a good day to bury Boris


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## uk benzo (Nov 8, 2012)

It currently works out cheaper for me to buy a weekly railcard to Victoria Station and get a boris bike from Victoria station to work. But that will cease to be the case if the cost doubles. Shit.


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## Greebo (Nov 8, 2012)

uk benzo said:


> It currently works out cheaper for me to buy a weekly railcard to Victoria Station and get a boris bike from Victoria station to work. But that will cease to be the case if the cost doubles. Shit.


Even with the high risk of bike theft, that raised hire price could make it worthwhile to buy a bikeshaped object plus a decent pair of locks and just leave it locked in Central London.  An alternative will be the Brompton hire which will be rolled out.


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## maldwyn (Nov 8, 2012)

I want an electric bike.


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## Kanda (Nov 9, 2012)

> Dear Mr Kanda,
> 
> Over 17 million journeys have been made using Barclays Cycle Hire since it was launched in July 2010. To make improvements to the future operation of the scheme, the access fees for Barclays Cycle Hire will increase from Wednesday 2 January 2013:
> 
> ...


 
Blimey! That's some increase!

Apologies, didn't realise that had been posted!


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## plurker (Nov 9, 2012)

joustmaster said:


> When do you publish the results of your survey?


Fairly common knowledge I thought?

"A Transport for London (TfL) customer satisfaction survey from September – obtained by Surveyor – reveals more than three-quarters of the scheme’s users are men and half earn upwards of £50,000 per year, while 88% are white."


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## Greebo (Nov 9, 2012)

Kanda said:


> Blimey! That's some increase!<snip>


As I said, it makes getting a cheap and nasty bike for short journeys plus a pair of decent locks look like a more viable option.


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## skyscraper101 (Jun 4, 2013)

New York has just launched its own very similar bike rental programme. The bikes look almost identical to the London ones save for the sponsor. Major difference from what I understood on the radio is that the stations are solar powered, wheras London's are hard wired.

But the whole scheme has had a pretty harsh reaction from the New York press. Seemingly differing opinion between Murdoch owned papers which have dissed it big time. And Michael Bloomberg is pissed off. Ah well


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## joustmaster (Jun 4, 2013)

its quite expensive.. over $10


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## _pH_ (Jun 8, 2013)

Can anyone recommend an app for android for the TfL cycle scheme? My map has finally fallen to pieces. I've found a few apps online but all the reviews seems to be from a few years back, just wondering if there's anything newer/better.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

The Serco employees who move the bikes around are on strike. I wonder whether it'll make much difference as Serco are doing such a crap job of it anyway.

http://londonist.com/2013/08/pay-hike-strike-hits-londons-bikes.php


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## 19sixtysix (Aug 12, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Can anyone recommend an app for android for the TfL cycle scheme? My map has finally fallen to pieces. I've found a few apps online but all the reviews seems to be from a few years back, just wondering if there's anything newer/better.


 
There's a TFL one I loaded last week. Seems OK. Take your location and bungs up the info for nearest stations.


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## _pH_ (Aug 12, 2013)

19sixtysix said:


> There's a TFL one I loaded last week. Seems OK. Take your location and bungs up the info for nearest stations.


Sounds good, got a link?


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## Radar (Aug 16, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Sounds good, got a link?


 
I use London Transport Pro, which does the TfL bikes among many other things. A godsend if you live in London and use public transport, there is a free version too but I don't think that does the bikes


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## 19sixtysix (Aug 16, 2013)

_pH_ said:


> Sounds good, got a link?


 
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=uk.co.barclays.cycle&hl=en


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## RedDragon (Oct 24, 2013)

> Boris Johnson is to spark an electric bike revolution by introducing a new rental scheme on the streets of London next year. Several hundred battery-powered bicycles will be on  London’s streets next year in a pilot scheme that breaks new ground in the UK.
> Standard


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## uk benzo (Oct 25, 2013)

RedDragon said:


>



Typically, he focuses on installing the stations in North London where the wealth lies.


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## RedDragon (Oct 25, 2013)

uk benzo said:


> Typically, he focuses on installing the stations in North London where the wealth lies.


And the hills, perhaps.


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## Pickman's model (Oct 25, 2013)

uk benzo said:


> Typically, he focuses on installing the stations in North London where the wealth lies.


there are rich people in south london too you know. and it's not like muswell hill is all awash with money


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## plurker (Oct 25, 2013)

RedDragon said:


> And the hills, perhaps.



I commute daily streatham / farringdon and back. In three months (since i started to record my rides) I was surprised to see I've ridden a total elevation of 25,328ft – that’s almost the height of Mt Everest made up of Streatham Hills...


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## RedDragon (Dec 10, 2013)

Barclay's to ditch Boris Bike sponsorship Guardian


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## Dogsauce (Dec 11, 2013)

Sponsorship that was supposed to cover the whole cost of the scheme, but has only managed about half of this.

Add to that the barely-used 'dangleway', massively expensive buses and crap cycle infrastructure and it looks like this Mayor of yours is a bit shit at doing transport.  I guess if he clowns about a bit on telly every now and then it's all OK with the voters.


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## teuchter (Dec 17, 2013)

https://twitter.com/benphillips76/status/412874144129105920/photo/1


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## RedDragon (Dec 17, 2013)

A Boris delivery boy for Maggi's corner shop.


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## Sigmund Fraud (Dec 17, 2013)

Three blokes get a Boris Bike from the old Kent Road, up Mt Ventoux in Provence and back again in 22 seconds under 24 hours.


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## salem (Dec 17, 2013)

teuchter said:


> https://twitter.com/benphillips76/status/412874144129105920/photo/1


The kids got an England shirt on so just a nice summer pic I think


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## vornstyle76 (Jan 3, 2014)

I found an abandoned Boris Bike behind the goal at Dulwich Hamlet's ground after a solid win. Rode it all the way to...... Nunhead. But the first time I'd ridden a bike in over a decade, so good chunkytastic fun.


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## salem (Jan 3, 2014)

I used to sometimes see a bloke in Barcelona who had a Royal Mail bike.

Also saw a bike courier thing towing a trailer the other day and I'm pretty sure it was a boris bike that had been painted


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## skyscraper101 (Feb 27, 2015)

The bikes are soon going to re-branded with 'Santander' and an all new red look.



> The seven-year deal, which saw Santander outbid Coca-Cola to replace Barclays, will see the scheme renamed Santander Cycles and the 11,500 bikes and 748 docking stations carrying the bank’s red logo from April.



http://www.standard.co.uk/news/lond...e-barclays-new-sponsorship-deal-10074545.html 






Feel the excitement.


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## Maurice Picarda (Feb 27, 2015)

That yeoman warder appears to have got lost.


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## Crispy (Feb 27, 2015)

It's a better colour for London (and red is the bestest colour anyway), but everyone's still going to call them boris bikes.


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## Dogsauce (Feb 27, 2015)

I reckon they should have gone for yellow like the TDF ones, because they stand out a lot more and that might help a driver notice them (if they bother to look).

Plus yellow bikes are wicked cool 

We all know it wasn't Boris's idea anyway, don't we?


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## Crispy (Feb 27, 2015)

Dogsauce said:


> We all know it wasn't Boris's idea anyway, don't we?


Of course, but "Kencycles" doesn't really roll off the tongue.


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## laptop (Feb 27, 2015)

Crispy said:


> Of course, but "Kencycles" doesn't really roll off the tongue.



Pah. Parochial. I fear it's too late to acknowledge the Kabouters' pilot project and call them _Kenfiets_?


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## skyscraper101 (May 11, 2015)

Finally.. a more simple way to hire bikes without getting a smart key. On your phone with an app.



> Users of Boris bikes now have the option to hire them using a smartphone app.
> 
> The free Santander Cycles App, for Android and iOS phones, means users can avoid hiring a bicycle from a docking station and get a release code sent straight to their phones.
> 
> Customers need to register their bank card with the app and then tap the ‘hire now’ from a nearby docking station. They will then be sent a release code which can be keyed into a docking point to release a bike for use.



http://www.standard.co.uk/news/tran...w-be-hired-using-smartphone-app-10241375.html


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## salem (May 12, 2015)

Great. Those terminals are awful to use. They need to fix the unlock buttons too. They provide no feedback as to whether they've been actually pressed and of course if it doesn't register a press or registers too many you don't know when you're starting the sequence again.


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## Crispy (May 12, 2015)

The whole user experience is terrible. Really slow machine, loads of NEXT buttons to press (PRESS. I SAID PRESS! I AM PRESSING REALLY HARD NOW!) and 40 page user agreements to read.


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## teuchter (May 12, 2015)

I really, really, resent the exemplary and long standing consistency and clarity of London Transport/TfL branding and design standards being compromised by this stuff. Colour matching to Barclays and now all changed to Santander. Until the next sponsor changeover. It's a line that simply shouldn't be crossed, ever. And those who don't understand why should be deported from London, or shot.


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## laptop (May 13, 2015)

Crispy said:


> 40 page user agreements to read.






> when it is raining, does one get less wet by walking, by running – or by reading the legalese and then cycling?
> 
> To begin to answer this question, Feedback subcontracted the reading of the TfL document to a colleague who is quite fluent in contract-speak. The colleague emerged, spluttering, after 47 minutes (excluding a very necessary coffee break).
> 
> ...


----------



## 2hats (Jul 20, 2015)

Can anyone with more than one key on a TfL cycle hire account comment on whether they have 'fixed' the 'feature' where they were double charging an account with two keys? Or do you just have to create a second separate account in order to get a sane arrangement with two keys? Thanks.


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## hash tag (Apr 21, 2022)

Inspired by another thread, I dug out this thread and of course see lots of conflicting views and arguements about the scheme. I know some of the posters are still around and wondered how people view the scheme and all its imitators now.


----------

